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UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF LABOR
W . N. DOAK, Secretary
BUREAU OF LABOR STATISTICS
ETHELBERT STEWART, Commissioner
BULLETIN OF THE UNITED STATES!
BUREAU OF LABOR STATISTICS/ *
EMPLOYMENT
AND
*
'
UNEMPLOYMENT
COO
N O . OOO
SERIES
INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION
OF PUBLIC EMPLOYMENT SERVICES
SEVENTEENTH ANNUAL MEETING
PHILADELPHIA, PA., SEPTEMBER 24-27, 1929
EIGHTEENTH ANNUAL MEETING
TORONTO, CANADA, SEPTEMBER 9-12,1930
MAY, 1931
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON : 1931
For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, Washington, D. C«
-
-
-
Price 35 cents
INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF PUBLIC EMPLOYMENT SERVICES
SEVENTEENTH ANNUAL MEETING
PHILADELPHIA, PA., SEPTEMBER 24-27, 1929
m
OFFICERS, 1929-30
President.—H. C. Hudson, Toronto, Ontario.
Past president.—R. A. Rigg, Ottawa, Ontario.
First vice president.—John S. B. Davie, Concord, N. H.
Second vice president.—Francis I. Jones, Washington, D. 0.
Third vice president.—Emanuel Koveleski, Rochester, N. Y.
Secretary-treasurer.—B. C. Seiple Cleveland, Ohio.
Executive committee.—Walter J. Lloyd, Harrisburg, Pa.; Mrs. M. L. West,
Richmond, Va.; J. A. Bowman, Winnipeg, Canada; Harry Lippart, Milwaukee,
W is.; Russel J. Eldridge, Newark, N. J.
Convention city: Toronto, Canada, September 9-12, 1930.
CONSTITUTION
Adopted at Rochester, N. Y., September 17, 1925.
Nam e
1. This association shall be called “ The International Association of Public
Employment Services.”
O bjects
2. (a) To promote a system or systems of employment exchanges in the
United States and Canada.
(6) To advance the study of employment problems.
(<?) To bring into closer association and to coordinate the efforts of govern
ment officials and others engaged or interested in questions relating to employ
ment or unemployment
M e m b e r s h ip
3. All persons connected with Federal, State, provincial, or municipal depart
ments operating public employment offices shall be eligible to membership in
the association. Such other individuals or associations as are engaged or inter
ested in questions relating to employment or unemployment shall be entitled to
membership. No person or association operating an employment agency for
profit shall be eligible for membership.
O f f ic e r s
4. The officers of the association shall be the president, the last past president,
three vice presidents, and the secretary-treasurer, elected annually. The execu
tive committee shall consist of the officers, together with five other members
elected annually.
M
e e t in g s
5. Meetings shall be held annually and notice thereof shall be sent to members
at least 90 days in advance of said meeting.
A
m endm ents
6. Amendments to the constitution shall be adopted at any annual meeting.
Proposed amendments shall be submitted in writing and referred to the execu
tive committee.
▼
VI
CO NSTITUTION
Q uorum
7. Fifteen members shall constitute a quorum.
8. Roberts’ Rules of Order shall govern the proceedings of the meetings of this
association.
ANNUAL MEETINGS AND OFFICERS OF THE INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF PUBLIC EMPLOYMENT
SERVICES
Annual meetings
No.
President
Date
Dec. 19, 20, 1913.
Sept. 24, 25, 1914
July 1, 2, 1915...
July 20, 21, 1916Sept. 20, 21, 1917
Sept. 19-21, 1918.
Oct. 14, 15, 1919.
Sept. 20-22, 1920.
Sept. 7-9, 1921...
Sept. 11-13, 1922.
Sept. 4-7, 1923...
May 19-23, 1924.
Sept. 15-17, 1925.
Sept. 16-18, 1926.
Oct. 25-28, 1927..
Chicago, 111............
Indianapolis, In d ..
Detroit, Mich.........
Buffalo, N. Y .........
Milwaukee, W is ...
Cleveland, Ohio___
Washington, D. C .
Ottawa, Canada...
Buffalo, N. Y .........
Washington, D. C .
Toronto, Canada...
Chicago, 111............
Rochester, N. Y . . .
Montreal, Canada..
Detroit, Mich.........
Sept. 18-21, 1928.
Sept. 24-27, 1929.
Cleveland, Ohio..
Philadelphia, Pa.
Secretary-treasurer
Place
Fred C. Croxton...
W. F. Hennessy...
Charles B. Barnes..
___ do.....................
___ do......................
John B. Densmore.
Bryce M. Stewart..
.......do..
___ do..................
E. J. Henning__
___ do........ ........
Charles J. Boyd..
R. A. Rigg..........
___ do..................
A. L. Urick.........
.do..
.do..
W. M. Leiserson,
Do.
Do.
G. P. Berner.
H. J. Beckerle.
Wilbur F. Maxwell.
Richard A. Flinn.
Do.
Do.
Marion C. Findlay.
Do.
Richard A. Flinn.
Do.
Mary Stewart.
Mrs. M . L. West (tem
porary).
B. C. Seiple.
Do.
Contents
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 24, 1929—MORNING SESSION
Chairman, H. C. Hudson, Vice President International Association of Public
Employment Services
Page
Appointment of credentials committee ________________________________
Report of the president, A. L. Urick_________________________________
1
1
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 24, 1929— AFTERNOON SESSION
Chairman, John S. B. Davie, Commissioner Bureau of Labor of New Hampshire
Appointment of convention committees______________________________
Some facts and reflections regarding employment and unemployment sta
tistics, by R. A. Rigg, director Employment Service, Department of
Labor of Canada_________________________________________________
Fee-charging employment agencies, by John B. Andrews, secretary Asso
ciation for Labor Legislation______________________________________
Discussion_____________________________________________________
Sidney W. Wilcox, of Pennsylvania.
John B. Andrews, of New York.
H. C. Hudson, of Ontario.
George F. Miles, of Ohio.
Walter J. Lloyd, of Pennsylvania.
Charles J. Dollen, of New York*
3
3
11
15
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 24, 1929— EVENING SESSION
Chairman, Francis I. Jones, Director General United States Employment Service
Private employment agency work, by Alex Anderson, of the Personnel
Service Co. of Philadelphia and Baltimore__________________________
Discussion______________________________________________ ______
Emanuel Koveleski, of New York.
Alex Anderson, of Pennsylvania.
H. C. Hudson, of Ontario.
Miss Agnes L. Peterson, of Washington, D. C.
Louis Bloch, of California.
John B. Andrews, of New York.
19
22
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 25, 1929— MORNING SESSION
Chairman, B. C. Seiple, Superintendent State-City Employment Service,
Cleveland, Ohio
The relation of the public employment service to the handicapped worker,
by H. C. Hudson, general superintendent Employment Service of
Canada, Toronto, Ontario___________ _______________ _____________
Discussion_____________________________________________________
A. W. Motley, of Pennsylvania.
H. C. Hudson, of Ontario.
W. S. Dobbs, of Ontario.
B. C. Seiple, of Ohio.
Mrs. Lauder, of Pennsylvania.
Charles J. Dollen, of New York.
R. A. Rigg, of Ontario.
Frank M. Mansfield, of Pennsylvania.
George F. Miles, of Ohio.
Charles J. Boyd, of Illinois.
Col. George W. B. Hicks, of Pennsylvania.
Miss Louise C. Odenkrantz, of New York.
TO
27
32
vm
CO NTENTS
Efficiency of public employment services, by A. J. Odam, statistician
Department of Labor of Canada___________________________________
Discussion_____________________________________________________
B. C. Seiple, of Ohio.
Eugene B. Eddy, of Pennsylvania.
Francis I. Jones, of Washington, D. C.
Charles J. Dollen, of New York.
A. J. Odam, of Ontario.
R. A. Rigg, of Ontario.
A. N
J. Hoppes, of Pennsylvania.
H. M. Hoover, of Pennsylvania.
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 25, 1929— AFTERNOON SESSION
Chairman, George F. Miles, Chief Division of Labor Statistics and Employment
Offices, Department of Industrial Relations of Ohio
Intangible values in employment service, by Eugene C. Foster of the
Indianapolis Foundation__________________________________________
Discussion_____________________________________________________
Charles J. Dollen, of New York.
Eugene C. Foster, of Indiana.
George F. Miles, of Ohio.
Eugene B. Eddy, of Pennsylvania.
George E. Gill, of Indiana.
B. C. Seiple, of Ohio.
Francis I. Jones, of Washington, D. C.
John S. B. Davie, of New Hampshire.
Importance of unemployment statistics, by Joseph H. Willits, of the
University of Pennsylvania________________________________________
Discussion-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Charles E. Reber, of Pennsylvania.
Joseph H. Willits, of Pennsylvania.
Charles J. Boyd, of Illinois.
Mr. Siler.
George E. Gill, of Indiana.
George F. Miles, of Ohio.
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 25, 1929— EVENING SESSION
Chairman, J. F. Mitchell, Superintendent of Employment, Pittsburgh, Pa.
A woman’s viewpoint as to the value of employment service, by Mrs. L. C.
Morgart, assistant superintendent of employment, Pittsburgh, Pa____
Is the public employment service a direct responsibility of government?
by Charles A. Waters, former secretary Department of Labor and In
dustry of Pennsylvania-----------------------------------------------------------------THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 1929— MORNING SESSION
Chairman, Emanuel Koveleski, Examiner United States Employment Service,
Rochester, N. Y.
Appointment of committee on ways and means________________ _______
Employment opportunities for women in the Province of Ontario, by Miss
L. 0. R. Kennedy, superintendent women’s division, Employment Ser
vice of Canada, Toronto, Ontario__________________________________
Value of a standardized system of employer visitation by accredited em
ployees of the public employment service, by Will T. Blake, director
Department of Industrial Relations of Ohio________________________
Discussion_____________________________________________________
W. S. Dobbs, of Ontario.
Miss Rose Schneiderman, of New York.
Emanuel Koveleski, of New York.
H. C. Hudson, of Ontario.
C. H. Gram, of Oregon.
Russell J. Eldridge, of New Jersey.
Charles J. Dollen, of New York.
CONTENTS
IX
THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 1929— AFTERNOON SESSION
Chairman, J. O. Hopwood, Superintendent of Employment, Philadelphia Electric
Co. and President Personnel Association of Philadelphia
Placement work as a profession, by Sidney W. Wilcox, Bureau of Business
Research, University of Pittsburgh________________________________
Discussion_____________________________________________________
Charles J. Boyd, of Illinois.
D. H. Cook, of Pennsylvania.
Sidney W. Wilcox, of Pennsylvania.
Eugene J. Brock, of Michigan.
Need for employment workers in public and fee-charging agencies to have
proper training, by Prof. F. G. Davis, of Bucknell University_________
Discussion_____________________________________________________
Mrs. L. C. Morgart, of Pennsylvania.
Prof. F. G. Davis, of Pennsylvania.
J. 0. Hopwood, of Pennsylvania.
Harry Lippart, of Wisconsin.
Mrs. Binns.
Page
93
99
102
110
THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 1929— EVENING SESSION
Chairman, Walter J. Lloyd, Director Bureau of Employment of Pennsylvania
Public employment services and what they can accomplish, by Theodore
G. Risley, solicitor United States Department of Labor______________
117
FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 27, 1929— MORNING SESSION
Chairman, Russell J. Eldridge, State Director of Employment of New Jersey
Open forum (discussion not printed)_________________________________
128
FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 27, 1929— AFTERNOON SESSION
Business Meeting. Chairman, H. C. Hudson, Vice President International
Association of Public Employment Services
Report of secretary_________________________________________________ ___129
Report of treasurer_________________________________________________ __ 135
Reports of committees:
Committee on uniform forms, records, and procedure_________________135
Committee on resolutions_______________________________________ __ 136
Committee on ways and means______________ ___________________ ___137
BULLETIN OF THE
U. S. BUREAU OF LABOR STATISTICS
no.
WASHINGTON
538
m ay,
m i
PROCEEDINGS OF THE SEVENTEENTH ANNUAL MEETING OF THE INTER
NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF PUBLIC EMPLOYMENT SERVICES, CLEVE
LAND, OHIO, SEPTEMBER 24-27, 1929
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 24— MORNING SESSION
Chairman, H. C. Hudson, Vice President International Association of Public
Employment Services
The seventeenth annual meeting of the International Association
of Public Employment Services convened in the Benjamin Frank
lin Hotel, Philadelphia, Pa., on September 24, 1929, at 10.30 a. m.,
Vice President H. C. Hudson presiding. The invocation was deliv
ered by the Rev. M. H. Nichols, D. D.
Chairman H u d son . Unfortunately, your president, Mr. A. L.
Urick, o f Des Moines, Iowa, is no longer commissioner o f labor for
that State, and it becomes, according to the constitution, the duty of
the first vice president to take the chair.
I believe that we should place on record our appreciation of what
our president, Mr. Urick, has done for the association and our regret
at his inability to be with us at this convention. I am very sorry,
indeed, that we are not having the pleasure of seeing him in Phila
delphia.
[Vice President Hudson announced the following committee on
credentials:]
Committee on credentials.—Emanuel Koveleski, of Rochester, N. Y., chair
man; A. M. Coolbaugh, of Philadelphia, Pa.; J. O. Hopwood, of Philadelphia,
Pa.; L. W. Moseley, of Philadelphia, Pa.; Robert D. Young, of Philadelphia,
Pa.; Miss L. O. R. Kennedy, of Toronto, Canada.
[The report of the president, A. L. Urick, was submitted and was
read by the secretary.]
Report o f the President
By A. L.
U r ic k ,
President International Association of Public Employment
Services
[Read by B. C. Seiple]
Because o f inability to be present during the convention permit
me to make a very brief report of activities since the Cleveland
meeting, which was probably one of the most important and bene
ficial meetings held during the life of the association. The addresses
were of the highest order; the discussions were not only interesting,
but anyone reading the stenographic report will be impressed with
1
2
SE V E N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETING-----1. A. P . E . S.
the splendid interest and thorough knowledge of employment work
and its many ramifications on the part of those attending.
It is unfortunate that our association is not in a financial position
to have its proceedings printed at an early date following conven
tions. To do this would undoubtedly be productive of more interest
and helpfulness on the part of administrative officials, who can make
or break our association in the matter of attendance. The Labor
Departments of our Federal Government and the Dominion have
been very gracious in securing free printing by our respective Gov
ernments, but as the actual requirements of governmental work
demand first consideration, our proceedings must of necessity await
a time of lesser stress, and in consequence can not be distributed in
time to be of the best assistance in arousing enthusiasm for the next
following convention. In accord with the action of the last con
vention, Mr. Harry Lippart, of Wisconsin, Mr. G. E. Tomsett, of
Saskatchewan, and Miss Nell Williams Mercer, of Texas, have been
appointed a committee of ways and means. We trust this committee
will be able to conceive a plan of finance which will better meet the
needs o f our association.
By instructions of the last convention, the committee on uniform
forms and statistics was continued. The Canadian members of the
committee asked to be relieved for the reason that they have uni
formity in their service definitely established, so that action for the
States alone is required. Mr. Otto Brach, of Ohio, having retired
from the service, it was necessary to appoint three members, the
committee now being: Mr. Charles J. Boyd, Illinois; Mr. Francis
I. Jones, Washington, D. C .; Mr. Russell J. Eldridge, New Jersey;
Mr. Frank D. Grist, North Carolina; and Mr. George F. Miles,
Ohio. The proceedings of the last convention, in possession of
Secretary Seiple, contain the full and complete committee report at
the Cleveland convention. It should also be noted that our Cana
dian friends who retired from the committee will gladly render any
assistance within their power.
We were further directed to appoint a committee on by-laws, and
have named Mr. Walter J. Lloyd, of Pennsylvania; Mr. A. J. Odam,
o f Ontario; and Miss A. Louise Murphy, of Maryland.
Considering the possibility of not having the printed proceedings
o f the last convention in time for distribution before this meeting,
the splendid report of the Cleveland stenographer was arranged for
the printer and a duplicate thereof placed in the hands of the secre
tary to make certain that this meeting would have a copy of record.
The original was also preserved and is now in the secretary’s hands.
Commissioner Stewart and Assistant Commissioner Baldwin, of
our Federal Bureau o f Labor Statistics, are worthy o f our most
cordial commendations for their efforts in getting the printing done
at an early date, a most difficult matter in view of the extra session
o f Congress and the consequent extraordinary volume of printing.
[A motion was made, seconded, and carried that the report of
A. L. Urick, president of the association, be made a matter of record
and printed in the proceedings of the convention; also that the sec
retary send a telegram to Mr. Urick expressing the regret o f the
convention that he was not able to be present.]
[Meeting adjourned.]
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 24, 1929— AFTERNOON SESSION
Chairman, John S. B. Davie, Commissioner Bureau of Labor of New Hampshire
[Vice President Hudson appointed the following convention com
mittees in addition to the credentials committee which was an
nounced at the morning session:]
Committee on resolutions.—John S. B. Davie, Concord, N. H., chairman;
LeRoy Cramer, Wilmington, Del.; W. S. Dobbs, Toronto, Canada; Charles J.
Dollen, Rochester, N. Y.
Auditing committee.—Major J. J. Burke, Hartford, Conn., chairman; Dr.
Louis Bloch, San Francisco, Calif.; and Alfred Crowe, Quebec, Canada.
Committee on nomination of officers.—A. J. Odam, Ottawa, Canada, chair
man; William A. Wilder, Worcester, Mass.; Frank Grist, Raleigh, N. C.; Ed
ward L. Byers, Providence, R. I .; and Miss A. L. Murphy, Baltimore, Md.
Committee on time and place of meeting.—Mrs. M. L. West, Richmond, V a,
chairman; Preston Seidel, Harrisburg, Pa.; J. A. Bowman, Winnipeg, Canada;
Miss Lydia Tinker, Columbus, Ohio; and C. J. Boyd, Chicago, 111.
Sergeant at arms.—A. W. Motley, Brie, Pa.
[After an invocation by the Rev. M. H. Nichols, D. D., of Phila
delphia, the committee on credentials reported the names of 70 rep
resentatives as entitled to sit as delegates. The report was accepted
and on motion, duly seconded and carried, such representatives
were accepted as delegates to the convention.]
[Peter Glick, secretary o f the Department of Labor and Industry
of Pennsylvania, delivered a short address of welcome.]
Chairman D a v i e . The next speaker on the program needs no intro
duction. We have here another outstanding figure in employment
matters. It is a great privilege to introduce to you E. A. Rigg,
director of the Employment Service of Canada.
Some Facts and Reflections Regarding E m ploym ent
and U nem ploym ent Statistics
By
R.
A.
R igg ,
Director Employment Service, Department of Labor of Canada
There are few subjects which during recent years have provoked
so much discussion as that of unemployment, and probably no one
would care to challenge the assertion that no problem which has
succeeded in engaging the thought of interested authorities to such
an extent has been left more completely unsolved. Government
executives are besieged with requests from representatives of, and
sympathizers with, labor that something should be done to cure the
evil or at least to alleviate the suffering arising therefrom. No legis
lative session, whether Federal or State or Provincial, is complete
that does not entertain a discussion of the subject. O f books pub
lished and articles written and reports prepared by economists,
statisticians, and sociological experts there is no end. Conferences
constituted like the present one invariably devote attention to the
8
4
SE V EN TEEN TH A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
problem. Labor organizations have it continually before them.
Remembering, then, the widespread attention devoted to the ques
tion, it is unnecessary to do more than remark that this present
contribution is advanced without expectation that it is going defi
nitely and finally to settle anything, but rather in the hope that it
may prove to be provocative of more discussion.
A t least one definite accomplishment has been achieved during
this century as a consequence of the attention that has been directed
toward this problem. No well-informed, intelligent person now
denies that a problem exists. To use the old form o f disposing of
the matter by vehement denunciation of the unemployed as being
idle, drunken wastrels, and bums is to merit and receive contempt
for such opinion. To those of us who are in employment service
work and to all who have undertaken any study o f the unemployed
with any degree o f impartiality it is obvious that the overwhelm
ing majority of those who are out of work are keenly desirous of
finding it. Neither is one indulging in any exaggeration or over
stepping the bounds of moderation in emphasizing that the ranks
of degenerate charity mongers are largely recruited from among
those who would have been industrious and self-sustaining had rea
sonably continuous employment been available for them. Idleness
has habit-forming qualities quite as pronounced as drug taking.
However, we may find comfort in the general appreciation of the
fact that it is now commonly conceded that a problem of unem
ployment does exist, and that there are reserves of labor beyond
the legitimate requirements of industry.
Although the primary purpose of this paper is to deal with
statistical data relating to employment and unemployment, a few
observations regarding unemployment may quite relevantly be
made.
Unemployment is a ravaging social disease, both endemic and
epidemic in its nature, and because it is a social disease it is the
duty of society for its own protection, if for no other reason, to
reduce it to the lowest proportion possible. The insuring o f con
tinuous employment at rates of remuneration that will provide a
reasonable standard of living to all who need to work in order to
live is admittedly a Utopian dream. But while conceding the im
probability of the complete stamping out of this disease, it is the
duty o f all to aim at the preservation of the highest standard of
economic and social health that may be possible. Poverty and
pauperism, and their demoralizing concomitants, under famine con
ditions are understandable. When the means of life are inadequate
to supply the needs of all some must inevitably suffer. Such con
ditions, however, do not obtain under our modern system of pro
duction and distribution; the reverse is the fact. Shortage and
need in the form of demand are the very life of industry and the
guaranty o f prosperity so long as the commodities required are
obtainable. Whether the commodities needed are available to the
public or not does not depend upon their existence; they do exist.
Indeed, the anomaly and tragedy of our present system are to be
found in the fact that the most acute suffering from unmet need
is coincident with an overstocked market. Trade depressions mean
that, because warehouses are choked with clothing, cold-storage
E M P L O Y M E N T AND U N E M P L O Y M E N T STATISTICS
5
plants and grain elevators bursting with food, and coal banked up
like black hills, men, women, and children must go unclothed, must
exist half starved upon some form of charity, and must freeze in
their hovels. In other words, there is no question about there being
enough to go around to meet legitimate need.
Thus there are two facts that may be accepted as established be
yond dispute: (1) Both in the United States and Canada there is
either seasonally or continuously a considerable number of persons,
whose only legal means of obtaining an independent livelihood is
through the medium of their services being employed by others,
who are unable to find such employment; and (2) the suffering
caused by unemployment is not due to the inability of the means of
production adequately to supply a sufficiency oi commodities to
meet legitimate human need. Wealth which makes Crcesus look
comparatively poor is possessed by thousands, while unemployment
and the fear o f it inflict their black misery upon millions.
Herein lies the challenge, that the efforts o f labor applied to the
natural resources produce an abundance for all, but through in
ability to find employment for the labor power, multitudes are
divorced from access to the things they need. This condition con
stitutes the problem which society on the North American Continent
is faced with, and which is obviously troublesome to our legislators.
During the preelection session of the United States Congress last
year, keen interest in this problem was exhibited. A somewhat
popular attitude was that it was useless to attempt to do anything
until the extent and volume o f unemployment were precisely known.
Others claimed to possess this knowledge, at least approximately,
although the figures quoted by them varied by millions. Our
esteemed friend, Commissioner Ethelbert Stewart, o f the United
States Bureau o f Labor Statistics, compiled an estimate of the
shrinkage in the volume of employment in the United States from
1925 to 1928, and the figure so derived was 1,874,000. There were
people who exhibited Houdinilike agility and cunning in extricating
themselves from embarrassing positions on the subject by quoting,
with the air o f having finally disposed of everything, that old wise
crack about three kinds of liars, which is too familiar to require
repetition. But as furnishing evidence of the carelessness with
which some people (who ought to know better) handle statistics,
the writer recalls hearing two distinguished members o f the United
States Cabinet last year assert that there were 1,874,000 unemployed
persons in the United States. Such a gross misuse of statistical
data is almost incredible. Originating from this hopeless dilemma
came the hearing this year o i evidence on unemployment in the
United States before the Senate Committee on Education and Labor.
During the past two sessions of the Canadian Parliament the
subject o f unemployment insurance has been before the parliamen
tary committee on industrial and international relations. The re
ports o f this committee have expressed approval of the principle
of unemployment insurance, but the committee has urged that much
more complete statistical data should be available to provide a fac
tual basis upon which a scheme might be built. Thus we have in
both countries the common factors—the existence of unemployment,
practical admission that something should be done about it, and the
6
SE VEN TEEN TH A N N U A L M EETING ---- 1. A. P . E. S.
expressed need for statistical information that will in a compre
hensive, accurate, and up-to-date manner vividly reveal the size
of the problem.
Setting aside for the moment the question as to whether it is im
perative that such complete data should be available before any prac
tical steps are taken to cope with the unemployment problem, it
will perhaps be of interest to indicate what material is presently
at our disposal in Canada. I must leave to our friends from the
United States the task of stating what data are obtained in that
country. There are five principal sources from which data concern
ing employment or unemployment in Canada are secured by the
Federal Government: (1) The decennial census; (2) the annual in
dustrial census; (3) current monthly returns from selected firms
showing numbers of persons in their employ; (4) current monthly
returns from trade-unions, giving total memberships and numbers
of members unemployed; and (5) the records of the Employment
Service of Canada. Keeping in mind the demand made by authori
ties for approximately complete, accurate, and up-to-date statis
tical information as a preliminary to the adoption of practical
measures to cope with unemployment, what is the value of any or
all o f the data secured ?
Decennial census.—The last decennial census provided for ascer
taining the following information:
1. It a person, ordinarily an employee, were out of work June 1.
1921; 2. Number o f weeks unemployed in the past 12 months;
3. Number of weeks unemployed during past 12 months because of
illness.
Without attempting closely to analyze the value of the informa
tion thus acquired, it is clear that it fails to satisfy the demand. As
all who are in any degree familiar with the colossal task of dissect
ing decennial census data know, it takes years to segregate and com
pile the immense amount of material collected through that source.
Obviously the knowledge that on June 1, 1921, there were a given
number o f persons unemployed in Canada can not be accepted as
an indication of the number out of work in January some years
later. Moreover, such a record is seriously open to the suspicion that
it would not be compiled with the rigid scrupulousness necessary
to indicate how many persons were involuntarily out of work.
Would the record not be liable to contain those who were idle on
account of strikes and lockouts, temporary shut-downs and lay-offs,
and many of those taking voluntary holidays, etc.? Would the sus
picion o f such possible dilution escape those who demand specific and
reasonably accurate data? And the two columns which aim to
chronicle unemployment experience during the preceding 12 months
are open to even more severe criticism, in that correctness of answer
depends upon accuracy of memory and the conscientious truthfulness
o f the individual.
Annual industrial census.—A comprehensive census o f manufactur
ing industries in Canada is taken annually. By this means data are
secured indicating the total numbers o f salaried wage-earning em
ployees in this group, by months. It has been found impracticable
to secure complete returns until some months after the expiration
o f the calendar year. Thus the information relative to even the
latest months of "the calendar year is usually not available until 12
E M P L O Y M E N T AND U N E M P L O Y M E N T STATISTICS
7
months or so after they have elapsed. Surveys of certain other indus
tries, such as mining and fishing, are also made annually, which yield
figures showing the number of workers employed therein on a given
date. These censuses, however, do not cover all industries, nor do
they attempt to sample all industries; they fail, therefore, to meet
either the requirement o f being sufficiently up to date or compre
hensive.
Returns from employers.—We now come to the third form o f sta
tistical tabulation bearing upon this subject, namely, that made in
connection with the returns furnished by establishments employing
not less than 15 persons in industries other than agriculture, fishing,
and domestic service. These returns are made monthly and show the
number o f persons on the pay rolls of the reporting firms as at the
end o f each month. The chart before you [indicating chart] shows
the plotting o f the curve of employment by the reporting firms from
December, 1921, to July, 1929, reduced to index figures. The original
base figure o f 100 represented the numbers reported as employed in
January, 1920, one of the first months of collection, but recently the
average for the year 1926 was adopted as the base (100), and the
previous figures were adjusted thereto. Although it is perhaps
somewhat o f an irrelevant interpolation, it is interesting to note
in passing that the index numbers pertaining to manufacturing indus
tries exclusively have declined during the past six years in the United
States. According to the Monthly Labor Eeview, the index num
bers reflecting the trend of employment in representative manufac
turing industries in the United States showed an average of 108.8
for the year 1923, the first year for which these figures are regularly
published, and of 93.8 for 1928. On the other hand, in Canada
the average o f the index numbers in manufacturing industries for
the respective years were 96.6 and 110.1; that is to say, there was
an increase o f 13.5 points in the Canadian figures simultaneously
with a decline of 15 points in the United States figures. It might
be added that both the United States and Canadian figures have as
their base (i. e., 100) the average for the year 1926, and they are
therefore quite comparable. In these employment indexes we have
data that are up to date, and we may assume reasonably accurate,
but not covering the field comprehensively.
Trade-union returns.—The fourth quarry from which we hew
material is limited to the trade-union area. There are in Canada
some 2,600 trade-union branches or locals, comprising approximately
290,000 members. The latest monthly returns, giving the totals of
local memberships and the numbers of those unemployed due to
economic causes, were received from 1,690 local unions, representing
200,115 members. Although it is impossible to exclude the element
of error in reporting, there is good reason to believe that these re
turns, which include two-thirds of the organized workers in Canada,
are entitled to be treated as sufficiently reliable for practical pur
poses. The chart exhibited to you tells the story of the record on a
percentage basis during the period from December, 1921, to July,
1929.
Since these statistics are limited to the trade-union field, which
in a very large measure is representative o f the skilled and semi88852°—31----- 2
8
SE V EN TEEN TH A N N U A L M EETING — I. A. P. E. S.
skilled workers, and as it is highly probable that the percentage of
unemployment among unskilled workers is materially greater than
that of the semiskilled or skilled, they also, like the employers’ pay
roll figures, fail to meet the test o f comprehensiveness. That they
are regarded in trade-union circles as possessing considerable value,
however, is evidenced by the fact that the American Federation of
Labor recently organized a statistical department for the express
purpose of collecting and tabulating similar data in the United
States. In passing, it may be interesting to mention that the aver
age percentage of unemployment among trade-unionists in the
United States during the year 1928, as shown in the published tabu
lations o f the American Federation of Labor, is 13.1, while that for
Canada during the same period is 4.5.
Two of the three charts before you positively identify unemploy
ment. The trade-union chart shows that for the period covered
the percentage o f unemployment among the unions reporting has
varied from 2.0 per cent to 15.1 per cent, the average for the seven
years and seven months being 5.7 per cent. Assuming that the per
centage o f unemployment among the unions failing to report was
the same as that of the reporting unions, in view of the fact that
67 per cent of the union membership is covered, there were on the
average approximately 13,813 trade-unionists unable to find work.
That much information is tolerably well established.
Employment office reports.—The fifth source lies in the record of
performance of the Employment Service of Canada, one of the wall
charts setting forth the story o f applications, vacancies, and place
ments. A glance at this record chart is sufficient to demonstrate the
general existence of a substantial army of unemployed persons. In
interpreting the significance of this chart it is necessary that due
weight be given to the fact that the Employment Service of Canada
enjoys no monopoly of employment work. Many firms hire their
own employees and seldom, if ever, place their orders with the Gov
ernment service. Many workers depend on their own efforts or
those of friends to find employment and do not register with our
offices. Many labor organizations provide employment-office facili
ties for their members, and we still have some private employment
agencies in Canada, including some 23 of the licensed, fee-charging
variety. Since we are unable to determine what percentage of the
total employment business in Canada is represented by the employ
ment service records, it is impossible for us to make the same deduc
tion concerning all the workers o f Canada that we have been able to
in the case of the organized section of them.
However, some definite facts do stand out very boldly. Chief
among these for our present purpose is the lightninglike stroke
showing the relationship of the application or registration curve to
those o f vacancies and placements. This comparison indicates that
the demand for and supply of labor practically match each other
about September of each year; that is, during the harvest period.
It further emphasizes that the reduction of th e,excess of registered
applicants over the opportunities for employment is by no means
wholly accounted for by the number of placements made by the
employment service offices, and a considerable percentage of those
registering for employment find work through some other means.
9
E M P L O Y M E N T AND U N E M P L O Y M E N T STATISTICS
You are sure to wonder at the skyrocketing phenomenon exhibited
by the registration curve at the beginning o f 1922, and to require
an explanation as to why at that time applications should bear to
vacancies the relationship of almost two to one. The answer is
that on account of the distressful conditions existing in Canada
due to economic want, many of the governments and municipalities
of Canada provided emergency relief for those for whom the em
ployment service offices certified there was no work, and who were
in need.
We could dazzle you with statistical demonstration of the romantic
progress which Canada is enjoying, but you may refrain from the
use o f smoked glasses as we shall only turn on the glare for a
moment. Our friends from the United States know how bounteously
blessed with prosperity their country is. We Canadians hope that
your prosperity will continue to increase. The business record of
Canada for the past few years has been one of consistently rapid
development. The following figures, which constitute a comparison
of indexes o f various economic activities of the United States and
Canada for the period 1926 to 1928, will provide ample demonstra
tion of this fa ct:
Comparison of indexes of specific economic activities of the United States and
Canada, 1926 to 1928
Per cent of increase (+ )
or decrease (—)
Item
United
States
Industrial production............................................................................... _»............
Employment in manufacturing industries...............................................................
Steel production__________________________________________________________
Construction contracts______________ ___________________ ____ ___ ____ _____
Railway operating revenue.................................................................... .................
Car loadings______________________________ ___________ _____ _______ ______
Foreign trade.............................................................................................................
Hydroelectric power generated_____________________________________ *______
Petroleum consumption__________ ________________ ________________________
+2
-6 .2
+6
+5
-4
-3
-.2
+19
+16
Canada
+12
+12
+68
+25
+14
+17
+13
+49
+60
Consult once more the employers’ returns chart, and, bearing in
mind the staggering increase of production per worker as a result of
the ever increasing efficiency of the machine, note the ascension of the
curve of employment from the index figure of 78.8 on January 1,
1922, to 109.1 on January 1 of the present year. What more elo
quent testimony of progress could be desired?
But lest we lose our sense of proportion in the glamorous ecstasy
created by this picture, let us turn again to the trade-union and em
ployment service charts. The space between the curve of tradeunion employment and the 100 line, and the wide distances that for
a considerable portion of each year separate curves of vacancies and
registrations as shown on the employment service chart, emphasize
the existence o f our problem. Here they are only colored lines, pro
jected on a frame. In reality, they represent the degradation, pov
erty, fear, heartbreak, and misery of thousands of human beings.
The paeans of prosperity strike upon the ears of these victims as the
dirges of despair. It is not within the sphere of the present oppor
10
SEVE N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETING---- 1. A. P. E. S.
tunity to attempt to discuss the solution of this problem. I f any
thing in the nature of inspiration is responsible for this modest con
tribution, that inspiration has its source in the very generally ex
pressed dogma that no solution, even in part, is possible until the
exact extent and volume of employment is known. The time is over
due when this attitude should be challenged and the mind of society
disabused of the illusion. The main purpose of this paper is to
hazard the opinion that it is unnecessary to possess complete and ac
curate statistics as to the volume of unemployment in order to begin
to grapple with it. To know down to the very last one the number
of the unemployed would be academically interesting, but it is
difficult to see how it would assist in the solution of the problem.
Perhaps the most common method of avoiding the issue, adopted
by many whose efforts should be directed towards the elimination of
this evil, is, first, to classify unemployment as a disease, and then
having done so, adroitly to proceed to prepare an avenue of escape
from a troublesome predicament by insisting that the first act of a
physician is to diagnose the disease. This, they assure us, is the
scientific preliminary that precedes the application of the remedy.
They construe the diagnosis of this malady as involving the discov
ery o f the number of persons affected by it.
To what degree is this analogy correct ? When a patient calls in
a doctor does the doctor postpone action until he has ascertained how
many others are suffering from the same disease? I f an epidemic
of black influenza afflicted this continent would the medical fratern
ity insist that their first duty was to take a census for the purpose
of determining how many victims it had claimed ? Answers to these
questions are unnecessary.
It is respectfully submitted that the effects of unemployment upon
the individual are quite as baneful, irrespective of whether the num
ber out o f work is 2,000, 200,000, or 2,000,000. In other words, the
error is all too commonly made of confusing the disease with its ex
tent. The problem is not one of diagnosis or primarily of knowing
how many are affected by the disease. It is rather that methods of
applying the cure should be discovered. And it can not be too
emphatically stated that unemployment insurance or maintenance
during periods of unemplo}anent, while these may perhaps be de
sirable temporary palliatives, are, after all, only palliatives. Unem
ployment insurance applicable to all industries would yield unchallangeable statistical evidence as to the extent and volume of
involuntary idleness, but the only cure for unemployment is work.
Nothing else yrill insure the highest standard of social healthfulness
and well-being. Herein lies the crux of the whole matter. How
shall employment be provided? Efforts directed towards the ac
complishment of this purpose are infinitely more likely to produce
worth-while practical results than engaging in academic or acri
monious discussion as to the exact numbers of the unemployed. Inci
dentally it is an excellent way to discover how many are unemployed.
Within the lifetime of all who are gathered here, and within the
memory of a considerable percentage of us, interested parties
?uarreled about the number of industrial accidents. Those who
avored workmen’s compensation urged that, there were a great many
more industrial accidents than their opponents would admit. Both
FEE-CH ARG IN G E M P L O Y M E N T AGENCIES
11
were wrong in their estimates. The administration o f workmen’s
compensation acts has demonstrated there are many more accidents
occurring in industry than the wildest imaginings of compensation
advocates could conceive, and had the enactment of legislation been
delayed until the extent of the problem was known our statutes
would to-day be barren of workmen’s compensation acts.
When Commissioner Ethelbert Stewart appeared last January as
a witness before the United States Senate committee dealing with
unemployment and was giving testimony regarding a census of the
unemployed, the chairman of the committee asked, “ What would
we do with the information when we have it? ” Would it have been
impertinent for Mr. Stewart to have answered by inquiring,64What
do you do with the information you already possess ? 55 I f it is sin
cerely desired to do something about it, is there not sufficient reason
to begin now ?
With the enormous resources available on this North American
Continent, suffering as a consequence of inability to find work is a
social disgrace, but there are evidences to be found in the side step
ping of this problem by many which suggest that the priests and
Levites are as numerous to-day, and the good Samaritans are as rare,
as they were 2,000 years ago. JPossessing the material means and be
ing evidently endowed with the genius for invention and organiza
tion, so far as the interests of industry, commerce, and finance are
concerned, it is inconceivable that the problem of employment should
remain insoluble, unless we are to confess ourselves bankrupt o f
capacity to apply to this question the same effective ability which is
apparent in other directions. I f anything in the nature of real prog
ress is to be made in stamping out the evil of unemployment, which
is more disastrous to human well-being and a much graver menace
to our civilization than physical disease, it will be necessary to obey
the injunction of Thomas Carlyle, “ Do the duty that lies nearest to
thee; the second duty will already have become clearer.”
Chairman D a v ie . The next number on our program this afternoon
is to be handled by John B. Andrews, secretary of the American
Association for Labor Legislation, and his subject will be FeeCharging Employment Agencies.
Fee-Charging Em ploym ent Agencies
By
John
B.
A
nd rew s,
Secretary Association for Labor Legislation
The subject here to-day is the same that I spoke on at Cleveland
last September. That sweeping but divided decision by the Supreme
Court,1 referred to then, brought to your attention with renewed
force the urgent need for effective methods of regulating fee-charg
ing employment agencies, for it destroyed one of the chief means of
preventing the abuses practiced by unscrupulous competitors of both
the public employment bureaus and the more responsible private
agencies.
I need not describe to you those abuses which so long have made
fee-charging agencies objects of particular concern to the public.
1 R ib n ik
v.
M cB rid e, 48 Sup. Ct. 545.
12
SE V E N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
Petty graft and exorbitant fees, forms of extortion peculiarly avail
able to those who deal with the unemployed; fee splitting and the
misrepresentation of conditions of employment, which are breaches
o f trust in dealing with clients whose very livelihood is at stake;
refusal to return fees when jobs have not been supplied, a form of
theft which some fee-charging agencies practice upon the needy;
catering to commercialized vice; these are some of the facts which
differentiate disreputable employment agencies from the other kind.
The whole business suffers on account oi these offenders.
I am reminded upon coming to Philadelphia that in this city, since
we met one year ago, a job seeker killed the manager of a Philadel
phia fee-charging agency who had been slow in returning a $5 fee
after failing to mid a suitable position for the applicant.
Despite the opinion of the majority members o f the court in the
Ribnik case, well-informed people must recognize that there are
differences between this important work and the selling o f theater
tickets and real estate. They arise from the fact that employment
agencies deal with human beings under conditions which make vic
timization easy— and human beings who are in a particularly weak
position because unemployed.
But the Supreme Court has declared that agency fees shall not be
regulated by the State. This decision destroys one means o f legally
protecting the unemployed from the unscrupulous. In a previous
opinion the court had overruled a law prohibiting fee charging alto
gether. Thus the Ribnik decision, which was won largely through
the efforts of organized fee-charging agencies, leaves only one means
of regulation possible. That is the control of the issuing of licenses.
As asserted at your last convention, experience shows that the
State should at least require that three tests be applied to each
applicant for a license to operate a fee-charging employment agency:
1. Has the applicant a good char* x °
1
ably require that the prospective
himself a presumption of honesty ai
o
2. Are the premises in which he proposes to operate suitable? The
public may reasonably insist that employment agencies do business in
wholesome surroundings.
3. Does the community need the additional employment service
which the applicant offers? The public acts reasonably in restrict
ing the number of agencies so as to insure a fair degree o f economy
and consequently the possibility of reasonable fees and of good com
petitive practices. Not to be overlooked in restricting the number
is the possibility of providing better public supervision through State
administration.
These three regulations—the test of personal character, of suita
bility of premises, and of community need—are essential to protect
the public welfare.
Legislation in 1929 in nine States regulates fee-charging employ
ment agencies by strengthening the licensing restrictions. In North
Carolina such legal regulation appears for the first time; in Minne
sota the new legislation is well up toward the standards recom
mended a year ago at your convention, and is similar to the modern
provisions already in successful operation in Wisconsin and New
FEE-CH ARG IN G E M P L O Y M E N T AGENCIES
13
Jersey. In addition, in California, Colorado, Iowa, Michigan, Penn
sylvania, Oregon, and West Virginia some improvements were made
this year in existing laws.
Particularly prominent among changes by amendment is the pro
vision that the applicant for a license to run a fee-charging agency
must satisfy the State administration as to good moral character.
The next outstanding feature noted in the amendments o f the year
1929 is rigid restriction as to suitability of premises. In Minnesota
clearly, and in Michigan perhaps, new legislation this year makes it
possible to follow the good examples of Wisconsin and New Jersey
in requiring that a community need be demonstrated before addi
tional agencies are licensed.
I f a public hearing is held where the chamber o f commerce and the
federation of labor discuss with the commission and the applicant
the need o f additional employment service in that community, the
three requirements mentioned are more likely to receive adequate
attention.
It is equally important here to refer to those States where legisla
tion was urged—following public discussion or investigation—but
where the forces o f interested opposition were able to kill the bills in
the legislature or in the executive chamber. Illinois and Wisconsin
introduced legislation on the subject, but special attention must be
given to two large industrial States—Ohio and New YorkIn Ohio, legislation was passed by both houses o f the legislature
only to be vetoed by the governor. Evidently someone, perhaps un
wittingly, misled the governor into believing certain provisions of
the bill were unprecedented in American law, although the respon
sible person should have known they had long been in successful
operation in other States.
In New York a State legislative investigating commission put men
under oath and, also through investigation, uncovered all the
usual abuses that have flourished for 75 years in the fee-charging
employment business in that State.
The New York Survey Commission included in its recommenda
tions (1) concentration o f the administration of the law in the State
industrial commissioner; (2) a higher license fee and a higher surety
bond required; (3) adequate investigation of applicants and a public
hearing on each application; (4) the formulation by the industrial
board o f a code governing the character and condition of the premises
in which employment agencies may be conducted and of rules govern
ing their conduct; (5) the granting o f power to the industrial com
missioner to revoke agency licenses for cause.
In introducing these recommendations the commission said:
Your commission believes that the matter of procuring employment for the
residents of the State and procuring employees for the industries of the State
is a matter of concern to the State itself and should not be delegated to the
various localities. It is just as much a matter of State concern as is factory
inspection or the requirements of safe and decent working conditions. It is a
matter as to which the State should have the greatest concern, for it affects
the welfare of the poor and needy and the most helpless of our people.
The New York commission had the promise of cooperation of
“ the better element among private agency managers ” in putting its
amended legislative program into effect. But the commission found
14
SE V EN TEEN TH A N N U A L M EETIN G ---- 1. A. P. E. S.
that by a process of “ double-crossing,” encountered at other times
among these brethren, these same agencies were working under cover
to kill the legislation at the very time their promises of friendly
cooperation were most fervent.
The groundwork has been laid in New York for decisive action.
The commission’s official report is now available. Its recommenda
tions are in form. The needed legislation is merely delayed. Mean
while, in New York City, where 1,203 agencies were licensed in 1927,
the number was cut down to 1,140 in 1928, owing to more rigid
administrative supervision following public inquiry on this subject.
Further legal regulation of fee-charging agencies is necessary in
America. Consider for a moment this contrast between Paris and
the city o f New York. In the latter both public and private agen
cies have for years existed side by side. To-day in Greater New
York there are more than 1,100 licensed fee-charging agencies and
but 4 public offices. In Paris there are to-day about 100 private
agencies and 25 public offices.
In a recent investigation2 made in Paris at the suggestion of the
American Association for Labor Legislation, the following reasons
were given for this relatively good showing by the Paris public
employment offices: (1) They rurnish jobs; (2) laws regulating
private agencies are effective; (3) representative supervisory com
mittees help each office; (4) the executives are o f high character.
In Wisconsin, the State that has the best legislation on the subject
in our country, the good results are similar to those attained in
Paris and for the same reasons. With 10 efficient public offices in
Wisconsin, it has been found practicable to reduce the number of
fee-charging agencies from 39 to 10. The results have been good
for honest employment agency business in this field, and the State’s
problem o f adequate supervision has been greatly simplified.
Obviously, if we are to have adequate public administration we
must have qualified administrators and adequate financial appro
priations. A year ago the American Association for Labor Legisla
tion published the report of its survey showing that about $1,400,000
is available yearly for the maintenance of 170 State employment
offices in the United States. About $73,000 of this in cash is allotted
to States by the Federal Government. The Federal-State coopera
tive plan, as outlined in the Kenyon-Wagner bill, would extend to
the States about $3,000,000 in addition to their present funds.
We are interested in seeing established in America, as already in
Canada and several other countries, an adequate permanent public
employment service capable of serving as the foundation for dealing
intelligently with great problems of stabilization of employment.
Those who are in the responsible executive positions as directors of
our public employment offices are the ones to whom we should be
able to look to furnish much of the leadership needed to guide public
sentiment forward.
It is not too early, in line with a resolution adopted at your Cleve
land convention a year ago, to formulate plans and prepare to take
your proper place in the picture as officials to whom the public has
a right to look for leadership on this important public question.
2 American Labor Legislation Review, September, 1929: Public Employment Bureaus in
Paris, by Gertrude R. Stein.
FEE -C H ARG IN G E M P L O Y M E N T AGENCIES---- DISCUSSION
15
DISCUSSION
Mr. W il c o x (Pennsylvania). I would like to ask the last speaker
two questions. He mentioned concentration of supervisory power
within the industrial commission, referring to New York. What is
the attitude, in his mind, that should be held toward the type of
legislation that the city of Cincinnati has passed, adding consider
ably by way of city ordinance to the control and supervision of pri
vate employment agencies? Is that ultimately, and in the long run,
desirable, or is it desirable, if at all, as a temporary expedient ?
Doctor A n d r e w s . In replying to those two questions, I would say
the point I was trying to emphasize with reference to my own State,
New York, was that there we have had for years a system, under a
State law, where the cities had the local licensing power and some
times charged a license fee—as they do in New York City—of $25
a year, but in certain other parts of the State they charged no license
fee at all. In certain other communities there is no supervision and
no licensing whatever. So the recommendation I refer to in the
official report is to bring this under a state-wide system of super
vision and licensing of the fee-charging agencies.
The other point, with reference to Cincinnati: Cincinnati, I think,
has put up a very good proposition for a city. That, however, as I
understand it, does not interfere with the State of Ohio, which is
the pioneer in this legislation, in still continuing to supervise on a
state-wide basis both the licensing of the agencies and the public
employment offices.
Mr. W il c o x . May I ask another question? The speaker men
tioned a code for setting standards concerning the premises in
which the agencies are to conduct their business. I would like to
know if there is any such thing as a code setting standards for the
managers, giving a bill of particulars so to speak, or a job analysis,
o f private employment agency management.
Doctor A n d r e w s . I do not think there is, but there certainly ought
to be something to protect these weaker members of society from
men, and women too, of the character of those who sometimes get
the control of those fee-charging agencies. And I do not know
whether it should be called a code of personnel standards, or how
it should be developed as to terminology, but in effect I think you
have the right idea.
Chairman D a v i e . I am going to ask our worthy acting president
to give us his views regarding it.
Vice President H u d s o n (Toronto). Since Mr. W ilcox has brought
up the question of standards o f private employment agencies, you
may be interested to know of our experience in Ontario. We had 96
private agencies in operation when the employment service first
commenced operations 12 years ago. That number has been reduced
by legislation and in other ways to 14.
With regard to the standards of the men operating the agencies,
we insist upon a bond by a recognized bonding company, to the ex
tent of $500, for the purpose of protecting applicants against the
retention o f their fees. That bond forms a very good protection,
because only a man of some standing in the community can get a
16
SE V E N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETING-----1. A, P . E . S.
bond, as you would naturally expect. So we have not formulated
any code of standards or standard of morals or standard of past
performances, or anything of that nature, as we feel we can quite
safely leave that in the hands of the bonding company, whose cash
is involved.
M r . M il e s (O hio). Though being a close observer of the pioneer
State, Ohio, which introduced this legislation, I can not go back to
the day it was introduced, but, I remember, it drifted along for some
years until they undertook to supervise the license. I was closely
associated with the former commissioner of labor in the situation.
Two things that immediately entered into the question were the
moral character and the place. In those days a man operating an
agency who wanted a gang of men went where the men were, around
a saloon or a pool room, wherever a gang was loafing. When this
was brought to our attention one of the first things we instructed
the investigator to do when an application for a license was made
was to find out where the offices were going to be situated, as we
did not want them adjacent to a pool room or licensed saloon. This
was one o f the tests the investigators applied closely.
Another thing was the moral character. We had some people who
were very loose, especially those in theatrical agencies. They
thought every girl coming in for a job was of loose moral character,
and we had to supervise this. Twenty years ago we revoked licenses
in Cincinnati and other places on account of the moral character of
the applicants. We closely supervise the moral character and also
the place where the agency wishes to set up office. They were the
two main things, and they are the only two things in Ohio we can
deny a license on.
Chairman D a v i e . Before we close this discussion, I wonder if we
have any one present from a fee-charging employment agency. We
have all had our say; let’s be perfectly fair. Let’s hear what the
other fellow has to say to us.
Mr. L l o y d (Pennsylvania). Mr. Chairman, I think that would
be out o f order at this time, in view of the executive committee’s
action last night. You did not happen to be present, but the execu
tive committee unanimously decided to keep that in abeyance until
later, and it may be added some time during the session.
Mr. M i l e s . May I ask Mr. Andrews a question? I know he has
devoted a great deal of thought to employment agencies. He re
ferred to the Cincinnati law and I would like to ask: In what way
does he regard the city coming in with more than one classification,
and any conflict between the State and the city? Who should super
sede?
Doctor A n d r e w s . The State, of course, would have precedence.
It is the system now in several States, that the State does license
agencies, and then certain cities within the State also require a li
cense fee within their own municipalities. This is not peculiar, I
mean, to Cincinnati, but is in the interest of unification of adminis
tration and simplicity, which must go with efficient action. O f
course the State must have the ultimate direction of these matters.
I want to say, that in coming here I am rather sorry any word
should be put in the way of the private, fee-charging agency repre
FE E -CH ARG IN G E M P L O Y M E N T AGENCIES— DISCUSSION
17
sentatives having the floor in this meeting. This is the session on
the program for the discussion of that problem, and I have not the
slightest doubt but that they are here. They were in Cleveland, and
o f course there must be some representatives here of the fee-charging
agencies. W hy shouldn’t they have the privilege also of speaking
freely on this matter ? I do not know anything about any executive
committee action which would make it impossible for the freest pos
sible discussion on this whole problem. I am discussing this ques
tion year after year from the general welfare viewpoint. I stand
for reputable managers of fee-charging agencies. You never hear
me talk or write anything on this subject without saying that it is
to the best interest of the whole business to have the thing cleaned
up, and they, of course, should be interested in helping to put their
house in order. I have said it a number of times this afternoon,
and I think it is too bad these people should be denied the oppor
tunity of taking the floor and speaking here.
Chairman D a v i e . I want to say that I agree with the last speaker
absolutely.
Mr. D o l l e n (New Y ork). I am confronted with the same proposi
tion as Mr. Lloyd. What assurance have we to offer the large man
ufacturer that our service will be continued to supply their wants
indefinitely?
Chairman D a v i e . Would you care to tackle that, Mr. Andrews?
Doctor A n d r e w s . I do not understand the question.
Mr. D o l l e n . What assurance have we to offer the large manufac
turer that the State employment-----Chairman D a v i e . That you will hold your jobs forever? Yes;
that’s the idea.
Doctor A n d r e w s . The keynote in legislation that has been effective
and helpful in this country is representation of interest; represen
tation of the interests directly affected includes big business in the
community as well as the wage earners and the public in general.
Now that applies not only to representative advisory committees,
which experience shows can be mighty helpful to some of these offices
which have them, but it applies also every time an application is
made for a license by one o f these fee-charging agencies. The pro
vision is laid down in the statute that before a license is issued to an
applicant there shall be a public hearing and that public hearing
shall be attended by the representatives o f the labor movement of
the community and of the business interests of the community.
And this includes the big business interests of the community.
What could be fairer than such a general representation? Experi
ence shows that when big business interests are so represented they
do not threaten to put the public employment offices out of business;
they cooperate with and help to strengthen them. Go on with the
work that all o f you are trying to do.
[Vice President Hudson here took the chair. He explained that
the reason representatives of fee-charging agencies had not been al
lowed to participate in the discussion was that, in order to get
through with the business and the discussions planned, evening ses
sions had to be arranged, and that no time was available for any
new element; that it was not a question of fairness or unfairness to
18
SE VE N TE E N T H A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
the private agency. A motion was made and seconded that, whereas
a paper scheduled for the evening program would have to be post
poned until Thursday evening because of inability o f the author to
be present, 45 minutes o f the evening session be devoted to the feecharging agency question, with an opportunity for the fee-charging
agency men to take the floor if they wish. A point of order was
raised that only members were allowed to speak, but was ruled out of
order on the ground that the constitution does not specifically state
that outsiders may not participate in the discussion. The motion
was carried.]
[Meeting adjourned.]
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 24, 1929— EVENING SESSION
Chairman, Francis I. Jones, Director General United States Employment Service
[The session was opened by an address of welcome by the assistant
secretary to the mayor of Philadelphia, Mr. William L. Thatcher,
representing Mayor Mackey, who was unable to attend the meeting.]
Chairman Jon es. We are very happy to have with us those who
are engaged in the private employment service. At this afternoon’s
session, a motion was passed to devote 45 minutes this evening to
those who are engaged in private employment work. It has been
suggested that Mr. Anderson, of the Personnel Service Co. of Phila
delphia and Baltimore, discuss the matter.
Mr. Anderson, we will allot 15 minutes o f that time to you, and
to each of those who wish further to discuss the matter three minutes
will be allotted. Then there is a gentleman who will occupy 10 of
the 45 minutes to close the discussion.
Private Em ploym ent Agency W ork
By
A lex A
n derson,
of the Personnel Service Co, of Philadelphia and Baltimore
It gives me great pleasure to have this opportunity of placing be
fore you some facts regarding the fee-charging agencies. First of
all, I may say that possibly we are classed with the fee-charging
agencies simply because there has to be some form of revenue in order
to conduct business. No doubt the free agencies or public agencies
throughout the country have other means of getting capital to con
duct their business. I want to try to acquaint you with the type of.
business we conduct and to impress upon your minds that I can only
speak for the agencies handling the executive, the technical, the sales,
and the clerical work. We do not come in contact with the labor
agencies. We handle engineers, salesmen, executives o f various
types, and women in various omce capacities, such as secretarial,
stenographic^ bookkeeping, etc.
The organization- o f which I am president has offices in Philadel
phia and Baltimore and comprises 18 people, the majority of whom
are college trained.
The placement managers, as they are termed, have in the major
ity o f instances graduated from college, and if not, they have a very
good education. They are men and women of stability and character
and are definitely interested in the work they are doing. Sometimes
we get the impression that men and women in the fee-charging
agency work are not aware o f the importance of the work in which
they are engaged. I wish to emphasize very strongly that in our
office service is the first requisite. I also want to impress upon you
that we make no charge whatsoever until our service to the indi
vidual has been completed. We do not determine whether a man
19
20
SEV E N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETING — I. A. P . E. S.
or a woman should be employed. This decision is made by the em
ployer and the employee. We are only intermediates, making the
selection based upon the specifications given us.
I might state that the private employment office functions as a
business organization, using all legitimate and honest means toward
bringing together the person and the employer. It has no selfish
motive m mind, but is interested in rendering service to the indi
viduals who come before it. The employment managers being
trained in this line of work—and it takes sometimes six to eight
months to train them thoroughly—must have a thorough under
standing of the business they are conducting. We find there are
hundreds of organizations coming to the fee-charging agencies for
help. The reason for this is perhaps that they can get quicker serv
ice by eliminating interviews. I say that if the organization is a
business organization, with a thorough understanding of the job, it
is in a very definite position to render the kind of service the em
ployer is interested in.
There are many angles I could discuss which, of course, I can not
cover in the allotted time of 15 minutes. But I can talk about the
business generally, because we get to love this business. We do not
take it as a matter of course; we do not believe that we are just
merely in a business for making money. We believe down deep in
our hearts that we are rendering a service to mankind which is very
important, and we very definitely recognize the responsibility we
are placing on our shoulders in rendering such a service.
There are thousands of people who do not know where to go or
to whom to apply to find the position for which they are looking.
The average man to-day is not versed in finding employment. In
years gone by I think the greatest handicap the public has had was
the lack o f an organized method of finding the land of employment
wanted by those thrown out of work. Take the busy executive who
has possibly held a position continually all his life; if he were
thrown out of employment to-morrow, what would he do ? He is not
familiar with the business industry generally, as to where men may
be employed, that being a thing that possibly he has never thought of.
To such an individual our organization offers its facilities.
To cite a specific case: Just recently a mechanical engineer, a
college graduate, who had worked in a plant for a number of years,
suddenly found himself out o f employment. After at least one
month of search he came to our office. He was sent by a man
employed in his former organization. He was a plant engineer,
and as you know you do not have plant engineering positions all
the time. Sometimes such positions have to be created. In my
discussion with this man, he said, “ I am totally at a loss; I don t
know where to look. I have gone here and there, and it is a rather
embarrassing position I am in. I have a wife and four children,
and I must find employment.” I looked over his record and told
him very definitely that at the moment I did not have anything
I could refer him to, but I would utilize our organization m any
capacity that might assist him in finding employment. Then I
suggested that we write a short synopsis of his general qualifications,
which we did and sent out 200 copies to employers in Baltimore,
Philadelphia, and near-by sections. In five days this man had eight
PRIVATE E M P L O Y M E N T AGENCY W ORK
21
requests for interviews, which resulted in a definite position for him,
paying $5,000 a year.
Now I merely cite this as one incident. There are many others
where girls come into our office seeking employment. Girls fre
quently do not know where to go. They feel a little uneasy about
going into this and that office; but we, as an organization having
contact with thousands of concerns, possibly can quickly refer such a
person, if she has the necessary qualifications, to a position. We
have uncovered many things in business organizations which were
not exactly as they should be, and in such cases that particular
employer is scratched off our list.
I believe there is a great need and room for an organization
which is honest, which will put service before monetary considera
tion, and which will give those who come to it the kind o f service
in which they are interested. I believe the private or fee-charging
employment service can continue to play a big part in assisting
men and women to find the kind of positions they are interested in
and fitted for. I want to take just a moment, before I close, to
impress upon this body the fact that we are striving definitely to
continue and to increase the standards of our business, to operate
on a code of ethics in keeping with good business. We do not
want to accept one penny from any man or woman for any service
we do not render. We feel the public is the judge, and that it will
determine in the final analysis as to whether or not we are fit.
We want the public to feel that as we increase our facilities to render
greater service, just in that proportion our business has its place
in the commercial world.
I would like to feel that the fee-charging agencies could work
in a more harmonious wa,y with the free agencies. We are all in
a work dedicated to humanity, we are dealing with the most vital of
all things, the human element, and I believe there is room for im
provement in any organization that is handling the problems of
unemployment. I f we can get a closer relationship, a better under
standing between the two functioning organizations, it will mean
greater service. The only difference as it stands to-day is that one
organization must make a charge for its very existence, a nominal
sum for the service rendered^ which is not illegitimate. It is a
business, and while
1
*
'ion to-day functions for
humanity, it must
We are rendering the
same service, the result is the same. The only thing you can hope
for in your organization is to continue to render service to those
who need it more advantageously and possibly in a better manner
as you proceed and develop and grow; it is likewise with our
organization.
I am not qualified nor am I in a position to speak of agencies
such as ours that function in other parts o f the country. We are
very much taken up with our problems here, busy every day in
doing all we can to help the unemployment situation. But please
understand that we are not as an organization, nor as individuals,
interested in anything in this business except rendering service to
those who come to us for it. Monetary considerations come last
in our minds. We know that unless we give we can not receive.
We know that unless our organization can function as a business
institution, doing business in a business way, we can not function.
22
SE V E N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETING ---- 1. A. P . E. S.
Therefore, we must continue to build ourselves, build our organiza
tion, build the men with us, let them understand that this is an
important work, that we are given a great privilege when we are
permitted to assist those who are seeking employment to find their
life’s work. Much depends on it. On hundreds of occasions par
ents have come to me, mothers or fathers have come to me, and
thanked me for the service we rendered their girl or boy. Wives
have come into the office, thanking us for the service we have ren
dered to their husbands in finding them employment. It is a big
work. I think we are functioning along very similar and definite
lines, and I don’t believe the thought of the monetary considera
tion received should be taken into consideration when we are all
aiming at the same goal.
Where people have a good understanding o f what they are doing,
and base it on the principle we are trying to base our business upon,
trying definitely to help those we come in contact with, we should
all recognize the fact that we are doing all we can for humanity.
DISCUSSION
Chairman J o n e s . We will devote 30 minutes, now, to discussion.
Doctor Andrews is to close the discussion, and I want to give him
at least 10, possibly 15, minutes.
Mr. K o v e l e s k i (New Y ork). I would like to ask Mr. Anderson
if he represents all the employment agencies in Philadelphia and
Baltimore.
Mr. A n d e r s o n . I represent all o f the agencies mentioned in my
talk; that is, possibly 15 agencies which are dealing exclusively in
the executive, technical, sales, and clerical fields.
Mr. K o v e l e s k i . Can you tell us whether the people you represent
are members of the Federated Fee Charging Agency organization?
Mr. A n d e r s o n . No; they are not.
Vice President H u d s o n . I think we all appreciate very much the
clean-cut type of representative chosen by the fee-charging agencies
to present their case to the convention. I would be the last person
in the world to criticize anything that Mr. Anderson has said, but
I would ask only this, What is the fee-charging agency doing that
the public employment service can not do equally well and without
charge to applicant or employer? For example, we do the same
circularization of employers in Toronto and throughout Ontario that
Mr. Anderson has described. It brings the same results, but there
are no charges to be paid by either the employer or the employee—
the worker at a time when, with his wife and four or six children,
every dollar is needed.
I believe that the public-employment office can do everything that
a private agency can do. It is merely a question of raising the
standards in your own State or Province. This can be done by
education or through other means.
A further point I would like to make in connection with Mr.
Anderson’s statement is that the fact should not be overlooked
that it is the growth and development of the public employment
PRIVATE E M P L O Y M E N T AGENCY W O R K ---- DISCUSSION
23
service, the raising of its standards, and the attention which the
public employment service has concentrated on the private employ
ment agencies, that has in turn resulted in raising the standards of
the private agencies. So they, to a certain extent, have us to thank
for their present position, which obviously is better here in Penn
sylvania, Philadelphia particularly, than in some of the other States
and Provinces.
Mr. A n d e r s o n . In the matter o f placing persons, we have definite
arrangements in our organization which will, if humanly possible,
find the position for a person if that person is qualified; and the
majority o f people we work with are working people who are quali
fied for some position or other. I f a boy comes into our office who
has no education or who has not been employed, and who no doubt
needs employment, we would be glad to help him, but sometimes
it is impossible for us as an organization to help that boy. We
render the same service as nearly as possible to everyone (provided
they are of clean character) whom our organization is interested
in and whom we can, through our method of operation find a posi
tion for. It must be remembered that the final decision is made by
the employer. We are only the intermediary, and can not make that
decision.
As to the fees charged, we do not make a charge to anyone unless
service is rendered. I f the person takes a position and finds it is
not the position he should have, or the employer determines he is
not the man or she is not the women for that position, and we have
made a charge to the individual, we make a complete return of the
charge to the individual. There is a clause, however, in our contract
that calls for 10 per cent of the earnings. In other words, if a man
were to get $25 a week, and he stayed on his position one month
and earned $100, our charge to that individual would be $10. I f
we had charged him the usual fee of a week’s salary, or $25, $15
would be returned.
In reference to the number of people placing in the different classi
fications, in our organization we have 16 people. Four o f these
devote their time exclusively to placing people earning $25 a week
and under. The rest of the staff devote their time to placing people
capable o f earning $25 a week and over. Two-thirds of our organ
ization is devoted to placing people whose earning capacities are
over $25 a week.
Chairman J o n e s . D o you charge a registration fee?
Mr. A n d e r s o n . N o, sir.
Chairman J o n e s . Are you in favor of charging it ?
Mr. A n d e r s o n . N o, sir.
Miss P e t e r s o n . I would like to ask if the fee o f 10 per cent is on
a month’s wage or a year’s wage.
Mr. A n d e r s o n . It is based on the total length of employment. I f
the charge is one week’s salary, and a person was employed at $25
a week, if that were to run for 10 weeks, or $250, the charge would be
$2.50 a week, or $25. It is never to exceed the permanent charge,
which is based on the total time employed, not to exceed 10 weeks.
38852° — 31-
24
SEV E N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETING-----1. A . P . E .
s.
Chairman J o n e s . We have two more minutes. Has anyone a
question he wants to ask Mr. Anderson? He has been very gen
erous in his replies.
Doctor B l o c h . I want to say that in the experience of our State—
California—the private employment agencies, those which engage
in furnishing jobs to stenographers and bookkeepers, and technical
people, so-called, derive their income—approximately $2,000,000 a
year—almost primarily from placing on jobs stenographers, book
keepers, and office employees, all sorts of employees who are look
ing for employment.
It is my position, and I respectfully submit my opinion, that
this thing is wrong in principle. I think it is not fair that when a
stenographer, who earns only $60 or $80 a month, secures a position
she should be obliged to pay for her job. O f course, under present
conditions, this State does not support the free employment agencies
to the extent o f being able to furnish jobs free to this kind of help.
So it is essential that we have these private agencies. I must also
say that all employment offices are not the kind to which Mr. An
derson refers. We know some of them take advantage o f appli
cants, in that they charge all they can and do not describe the jobs
as they should be described, with the result that the clerk has to go
to the office and pay a fee time and time again.
Mr. A n d e r s o n . You say that you do not believe they should
pay a fee. I may answer that question this way. A man or a
girl out o f a job pays whether they pay us or not. They pay
either in mental worry or length of time out of employment, run
ning around spending car fares here and there. They pay a very
definite price for being out of employment. I f they can quickly
come to an organization, be placed in a position and be placed on
the pay rolls in an earning capacity, I do not believe that the
fee involved plays any part in that individual’s life. That person
is willing to pay and gladly pays the fee.
Chairman J o n e s . It is my pleasure to announce that Dr. John
B. Andrews, of New York, will close* this discussion. We will
give him 10 minutes; and if it is necessary, by unanimous consent
we will give him an additional five minutes.
Doctor A n d r e w s . I am disappointed this evening. I, of course,
expected, as I think the majority of you did, that we would have
that interchange of opinion which is always so desirable on public
questions. But this is my position. I have nothing in particular
to discuss with reference to the things said by Mr. Anderson, who
represents his own private organization, but, as I understand, does
not represent the fee-charging agencies even of Philadelphia. What
I object to, and I am going to be very brief, are the things that the
speaker did not touch upon.
I can not understand, when an issue is raised on a vital public
question, how a responsible manager o f a fee-charging employment
agency could take more time, a good deal more, than I am going to
take, and not say a word in reference to the scoundrels in his kind
o f business. I believe that the reputable managers of employment
agencies ought to be the very first to condemn those scoundrels and
to say they ought to be driven out of business.
PRIVATE
em ploym ent
agency
W O R K — DISCUSSION
25
The second thing of which I must speak will be partly out of
personal experience, although I note that some of the official com
missions have had similar experiences. I speak from 20 very inten
sive years in practical legislative work. In discussing the specific
details o f legislative measures, I have met in Washington, State
capitals, and elsewhere, representatives of business of many kinds,
which have included coal operators and shipping employers whom
I have sometimes found difficulty with, and representatives of many
other industries. But I have never found business men in respon
sible positions who, after sitting around the table and agreeing upon
the provisions o f a bill, would then go outside and double-cross on
that very bill by underhand methods, except in the business of private
employment agencies. That has happened again and again.
At the request of one officer of the most important federation of
such agencies in New York City a few years ago, I invited its execu
tive committee and some of its subordinate officers to a dinner at my
club, and we spent a whole evening going over the legislative pro
posals. They made several requests. There were half a dozen things
they wanted changed in that bill, and they gave their reasons. Some
of the reasons were, I would say, reasonable, and some of them,
perhaps, were not. But in the interest of harmony, in the interest
o f agreement, upon a practical proposal, those half dozen requests
were agreed to, and as an executive committee they promised their
hearty support of that legislation. Then what happened? Those
people commenced the next day to offer reasons for delaying for a
few days to do the things they had promised to d o ; then it was a few
days more and a few days more. Then I discovered that they had
been running up to the State capitol, buttonholing representatives
from all over the State, in direct opposition to their own agreement
under those conditions. We had a State commission a year ago that
had a good deal the same experience.
I wish that the responsible, reputable men in the fee-charging
employment agencies would meet us in the open on these things, ana
help clean up their own houses.
There is another point; it seems to me that the representatives of
both the private and public bureaus should recognize that if we are
going forward nationally with such a program as President Hoover
appears to have in mind, that the information that is absolutely
necessary for intelligent country-wide action dealing with problems
o f unemployment is the information which can be given by feecharging agencies, upon specific request, as well as by public offices
and other sources. In Massachusetts, where Mr. Foster tried this
winter the experiment o f getting the State to cooperate in this
national plan, the fee-charging agencies insisted that the bill must
be amended so as to omit all requests to the fee-charging agencies
for information with reference to employment conditions; otherwise
they said they would defeat the bill. Under those conditions, the
legislature actually amended that bill to exempt the fee-charging
agencies from its provisions. The bill called for certain other things
and those same officials of the private agencies went into the legis
lature to help defeat the bill anyway.
26
SEV E N TE E N T H A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A, P . E. S.
That is a significant thing which deserves consideration. There
is something under cover that needs to be brought into the light of
day, where fresh air will do it good.
I do not want to go over ground that has already been covered,
so I will conclude by saying that I agree most heartily with this
unquestionably able and upstanding gentleman that has come here
from his own private agency, dealing with executives and so forth,
to-night to speak as a representative of that business. I agree most
heartily with him when he says there is room for men and women
who deal with these public questions not from the commercial view
point, but from the viewpoint of humanity.
Mr. A n d erson . Just a little word of explanation—I want to cor
rect Doctor Andrews. I represent, I think, 8 or 10 of the agencies
in Philadelphia. Mine was not an individual representation, it
includes the same type of agency in Philadelphia which I personally
conduct.
[Meeting adjourned.]
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 25, 1929— MORNING SESSION
Chairman, B. C. Seiple, Superintendent State-City Employment Service, Cleveland, Ohio
[The morning session was opened by an invocation delivered by
the Rev. Harry Burton Boyd.]
Chairman S eip le. I am very happy to have the privilege of intro
ducing my friend and your codelegate, Mr. Hudson.
The Relation o f the P ublic Em ploym ent Service to the
Handicapped W ork er
By
H.
C.
H
u dson,
General Superintendent Employment Service of Canada,
Toronto, Ontario
I f governments are justified in spending money to assist ablebodied citizens in securing employment with the minimum of delay,
they are doubly justified m providing special facilities for assisting
those who are disabled, either mentally or physically. Handicap
placement work is, or should be, one of the most important phases
o f public employment activity.
The Ontario Government operates 26 public employment offices,
serving a population of approximately 3,000,000 persons. Toronto
is the only city with more than one-half million residents, and
Toronto, naturally, is the Mecca for the disabled, who believe that
the city s size is in itself a guaranty of greater opportunities for
other employment. Recognizing the situation, the Ontario Govern
ment has provided a separate section for handicapped workers in
connection with the men’s department of the Toronto office. The
staff consists o f nine workers, eight of whom are themselves handi
capped physically, seven as the result of war service and one as the
result of an industrial accident. The fact that the interviewers
are handicapped cases establishes an immediate feeling of confi
dence in the mind of the applicant, and once this confidence has been
established it can be, and I believe is, maintained by the sincerity
of the efforts put forth by the staff to assist the disabled men.
As the disabilities o f at least 65 per cent of the men registered
in this section are the result of war service, the Federal Government
has recognized its responsibility toward the ex-soldiers and has
placed in the office, under the full control and direction of the
superintendent, five special scouts or canvassers who devote their
entire time to the ever-increasing problem of assisting the disabled
man. This action on the part o f the Dominion Government and
the successful carrying out of the plan indicates clearly the intimate
and satisfactory nature of the cooperation between Federal and Pro
vincial authorities engaged in employment work in Canada.
You may be surprised at my reference to the fact that the prob
lems pertaining to the handicapped ex-service men are increasing
27
28
SEVE N TE E N T H A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A, P . E. S.
each year instead of growing less, as one not entirely familiar with
the facts might expect. The explanation, however, is a very natural
ono, and hinges upon the advancing years of the men who served in
the Canadian Expeditionary Forces. Fifteen years have elapsed
since recruiting offices were first opened to call men to the colors
for overseas service, and a man who was then in his prime, say,
between 40 and 45 years of age, is now between 55 and 60, and the
results o f what may have seemed at the time like minor wounds are
now making their imprint felt on the constitution and the physique
as major ailments.
In placing disabled ex-service men and also in seeking employ
ment for disabled civilians, it is an invariable rule that the appeal to
the employer shall not be made on the basis o f sympathy. Sym
pathy probably was a factor for a short time after the war, but in
the 11 years which have elapsed since the armistice was signed
competition has become so keen and the war has become such a dim
memory to some employers that an appeal to the feelings would
be largely a waste of time. The emphasis is accordingly laid upon
the applicant’s ability to perform a certain task to the entire
satisfaction of the prospective employer. It is not what a man has
lost but what he has left that counts from an employment stand
point, and a man with two artificial legs may be able to perform an
ordinary bench operation quite as well as the worker who possesses
no apparent disability.
In dealing with applicants for employment who are normal in
every way and who are in full possession of all their faculties, the
interviewer’s approach can be strictly on a business basis. Either
you have a job for a man and send him to it or else you haven’t
and you proceed to set the right machinery in motion. In such an
instance knowledge of psychology is by no means essential; but the
successful interviewer in a handicap department must be a psycholo
gist, a father confessor and general big brother, to men who sadly
need a helping hand.
I am convinced that handicapped men are entitled to very special
courtesy and consideration, if only to offset the curt treatment which
they often receive from busy executives, employment managers, and
timekeepers, when in search of work on their own initiative. We
should endeavor to raise their morale, which is too often broken
down by the attitude adopted toward them.
Earning a living in these days of keen competition is difficult
enough for the able-bodied. It is no wonder, then, that men who
have been made to feel their shortcomings by aLnipt and unsympa
thetic prospective employers come to us with the feeling that the
world’s hand is indeed lifted against them. I believe that the suc
cess o f a handicap department should be judged as much by the
success o f its efforts to remove this inferiority complex as by col
umns of figures showing actual vacancies and placements.
Canvassing for jobs and selecting the proper men to fill the differ
ent vacancies which are secured is child’s play compared to the diffi
culty which arises in many instances or removing from a man’s
mind a sense of his own disability. Until this objective has been
successfully obtained, in our opinion the man is not thoroughly and
finally placed.
RELATION OF SERVICE TO H ANDICAPPED W ORKER
29
The process of reestablishing a man’s confidence in himself does
not end with the interview in the employment office. Every dis
abled worker who is placed in a job promising permanency is fal
lowed up periodically by the canvassing staff o f the handicap sec
tion, and many minor adjustments which might have developed into
major difficulties have been effected hj this means.
In Toronto the municipal authorities have erected, or have per
mitted to be built, street-corner news stands originally meant for
crippled men and women. Investigation made by the handicap sec
tion disclosed the fact that some of the stands had been sold or
rented to men who were perfectly capable of earning their liveli
hood by manual labor, and after somewhat strenuous efforts the sit
uation was cleaned up by cooperation with municipal authorities.
When the employment service convention meets in Toronto (which
I hope will be next year) you may feel certain that any newspapers
purchased at any of these news stands will be bought from men
whose handicaps are so severe that they could not possibly earn a
living in any other way.
The disabled pencil seller who appears periodically on the streets
o f every large city is interviewed by a handicap scout as he meets
him on his travels, and if the man has the slightest ambition to en
gage in some legitimate form of employment, he is given every as
sistance in that direction. Unfortunately, however, the average
man selling pencils and shoe laces is a beggar at heart, and beggars
are extremely difficult persons to redeem.
I f it were not for the activities of a splendid organization known
as the Canadian National Institute for the Blind, the employment
service would undoubtedly have been forced to organize a special
section for the sightless. The institute in question, however, does
such splendid work that the handicap section does not register men
who are totally blind, although we do deal with cases of men whose
vision has been seriously impaired.
So far I have referred to our work in more or less general and
abstract terms. I may tell you first that the handicap section of the
Toronto office dealt with 1,061 new cases during the 12 months end
ing October 31, 1928. O f this number, 80 per cent were disabled
ex-service men and 20 per cent disabled civilians. There were 3,348
placements made, and of this number 1,187 were in regular employ
ment—i. e., jobs which would last longer than two weeks. Ninetytwo per cent of the placements were ex-service men.
In reporting on the year’s business, Mr. Marsh, who is in charge
of the handicap section, commented upon the increase in the number
of men who have passed middle age and who find it difficult to secure
employment under present highly competitive conditions. The pro
gressive nature of the heart and chest disabilities is responsible for
an increase in the number of medical cases as compared with the
previous fiscal year. Despite the volume of placements made by this
section during the fiscal year just closed, the difficulties met with
in placing chronic “ problem cases ” suffering from tuberculosis,
mental or nervous disorders, and various medical cases who are un
able to work more than a very limited number of hours each day still
remain.
The situation affecting ex-service “ problems ” who are in receipt
of disability pensions has been slightly eased since the formation of
30
SEVE N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETING ---- 1. A. P . E. S.
the industrial-problem board, which consists of representatives of
the Employment Service of Canada and the Department of Pensions
and National Health. This board has been in operation for 13
months and deals with cases selected by the handicap section of the
Government employment service, whicn is responsible for the sub
mission of the recommendations in each case. As a result of these
recommendations, a number of applicants have been placed in the
Vetcraft Shop under Order in Council P. C. 2328, some for sheltered
employment and others for a limited period only in order to deter
mine their adaptability for competitive industry. A number have
also been admitted to the indigent men’s ward at Christie Street
Hospital under Order in Council P. C. 1197. These applicants were
in receipt of a very small pension for disability but, owing to pre
mature old age, in many cases, had become unemployable in the
general labor market.
Correctness in classification is essential to the successful placement
of disabled men. It would be impracticable to have a staff of medi
cal men attached to the employment service, but arrangements have
been made with the medical and neurological clinics ox the General
Hospital under which applicants are examined by experts and a
confidential report furnished as to their conditions. The elimina
tion o f guesswork in classifying handicapped cases is one of the
first steps toward effective placement work.
A considerable volume of employment is furnished each year in
connection with the parking of cars at the race tracks and the Ca
nadian National Exhibition. There are four tracks in or near
Toronto, and they each have 14 days’ racing every year. The exhibi
tion—the largest annual exhibition in the world—lasts for two
weeks, and the earnings of the 166 men who were selected for the
car-parking and gate-keeping jobs range from $3 to $15 per day.
Formerly the parking privileges were monoploized by fit men, who
naturally resented the loss of the privilege, but cooperation between
the police department and the handicap section has been effective in
this matter as in the case of the newspaper stands.
The following typical examples of actual cases are presented to you
in order to give you a concrete idea of the type of placement work
which we are carrying o n :
(1) This applicant was employed as a mechanic prior to the war
and was discharged from the army in 1917 suffering from gunshot
wounds, head and leg. He returned to his pre-war occupation sub
sequent to his discharge until 1927, when the leg broke down and
was amputated in a military hospital, with the result that he was
unable to return to his previous occupation. He was tried out in
several capacities and was finally placed as routine clerk in a civic
department, where he is making good.
(2) This applicant is 32 years of age and was engaged as a
sailor prior to the war. He was discharged in 1918 as a result of
an amputation o f the left arm and gunshot wounds in the head.
For many years he was employed in several temporary capacities,
none o f which were of long duration. He was advised by this office
to attend a business college in his spare time, at the conclusion of
which he was placed as an inspector with one of the local public
utilities, where he is making good. He was born in Newfoundland
and supports a wife and family.
RELATION OF SERVICE TO HANDICAPPED W O RKER
31
(3) This applicant is a widower and supports two children. He
was employed as a farm hand before the war and is unable to carry
on in that line owing to a spine disability incurred in service. He
was placed with a local business machine concern as an assembler,
where he is able to sit down at the bench all day and is not called
upon to handle anything but the very lightest of material. He is
making good.
(4) One applicant of 25 years of age, who is in receipt of an
allowance from the workmen’s compensation board, owing to a
partially ankylosed spine caused by a fall while employed as a
steeplejack, was placed with an electrical appliance manufacturing
concern as an improver on assembly work, and arrangements were
completed with the workmen’s compensation board to provide the
man s necessary income during the training period. As in the case
of the ex-service trainees, the handicap department obtained a writ
ten agreement from the firm whereby this young man will be placed
on a permanent basis following three months’ probation.
(5) This applicant was employed as a laborer prior to the war and
was discharged from the army in 1919, being in receipt o f a small
pension as a result of gunshot wounds in the right leg. He endeav
ored unsuccessfully to reestablish himself in various ways before
registering in the handicap department. He had very little indus
trial experience to assist in correct classification, but during the
interview it was learned that he had had considerable ambulance
experience during his army service. He was placed as a first-aid
man in a large rubber factory, where he is making good.
(6) This applicant is 33 years of age and was employed as a
laborer prior to the war. He was discharged in 1919 as a result of
a heart disability, for which he is in receipt of a pension. He tried
to reestablish himself, but was unfortunate in not obtaining work
which was suitable for his disability, with the inevitable result that
he was unable to continue for any length of time in employment.
He was tried out in several temporary capacities and was finally
placed with a local glass-manufacturing concern as a glass beveler.
This firm arranged to teach this applicant and guaranteed to place
him in steady employment. The follow-up system in vogue in the
handicap department shows that he is measuring up to all require
ments to date.
Last Wednesday (September 18) we commenced the first of a
series o f weekly broadcasts regarding the work of the employment
service. It is my intention to use this valuable means of propa
ganda to increase the scope of our activities, and particularly to
bring before the radio audiences the importance of our activities on
behalf of handicapped workers.
In conclusion I hardly need to emphasize the importance of handi
cap placement work. It is a job which should be done well if at
tempted at all and it calls for high degrees of perception and sympa
thy. The only question that arises in my mind in connection with it
is whether or not the efforts of the handicap section, and indeed
public employment work generally, receive the recognition to which
they might properly be considered as entitled. Since, however, this
situation prevails in all public-service work, we who are engaged
in it must consider the lack of appreciation as more or less inevitable.
32
SE VEN TEEN TH A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
DISCUSSION
Chairman S e ip l e . I think Mr. Hudson has given us a very valuable
paper. I am confident, however, that both Mr. Hudson and Mr.
Dobbs have many things that they could tell us which would be of
interest about this service, but were not included in that paper.
Therefore I hope you will all feel at liberty to ask any questions
you wish or otherwise enter into the discussion.
Mr. M o t l e y (Pennsylvania). I was very much interested in Mr.
Hudson’s paper because of conditions in connection with my work
for the bureau of employment; I have also handled a good deal
of rehabilitation work for the American Legion, and find the con
dition o f these ex-service men in the United States practically the
same. Our work in the American Legion of placing disabled men is
heavier now than it was four or five years ago.
There is one problem we have to contend with, which is that the
manufacturing plants (some of them) refuse to accept men who can
not pass a physical examination, regardless of whether or not they
are ex-service men.
I should like to ask Mr. Hudson if the manufacturing plants of
Canada make any provision for ex-service men in passing a physical
examination.
Mr. H u d s o n . I wish to refer all inquiries of that nature to Mr.
Dobbs, who can answer them much better than I can.
Mr. D o bbs . The way we get employment for ex-service men in
Canada is through an order in council which the Dominion Govern
ment has put into effect and which covers employers. That is, the
Dominion Government accepts all responsibility for an accident to
an ex-service man if employed in any of the plants and pays all
compensation.
Therefore, the employer is under no special liability in that regard.
He can take a man valued at from 25 per cent up. There is no pro
vision covering the man who is disabled and on a pension, and as
the last speaker pointed out, probably disabilities will increase enor
mously during the next 10 years. After that, they will be over
the peak. We find in Canada that some 43,000 or 44.000 ex-service
men have died since the war as a result of illness, wounds, or dis
ease. They are beginning to go. They have burned out, prema
turely o ld ; as one of the members of Parliament said, “ They are
young in years but old in body.” Their bodies are burned out. The
way we get around preferential employment for ex-service men is
through the fact that the Dominion Government assumes all liabil
ity, if there should be an accident, in connection with compensation
to such men, paying to the injured man this compensation in addi
tion to his war pension. Does that answer the question?
Chairman S e ip l e . That answers the question, but it does not solve
the problem. I sympathize with the point that Mr. Motley brought
up, because there is that difficulty in Ohio. I presume it is general
in industrial States at least, that through some form of workmen’s
compensation and because of the greater hazard that employers are
inclined to believe would be attached to the employing of a person
who is not physically fit, it is difficult to place handicapped workers.
H AND ICAPPED W ORKER— DISCUSSION
33
[Mrs. Lauder, of the Philadelphia Consumers’ League, though not
a member of the association, was given permission to speak by unan
imous consent.]
Mrs. L a u d e r . We have been giving considerable study to this sub
ject o f the handicapped. We find that a number of employers are
saying they will not give jobs to the handicapped because of the
liability of a second accident which would make the compensation
very heavy on the firm. As a matter of fact, various States in the
United States have added a clause to their workmen’s compensation
acts to take care of this subject; and for that reason I want to say
that in States like Pennsylvania which have not got that clause, it
would aid us materially if we could go to the legislature and work
to get this clause in the compensation act. This clause provides that
if any handicapped person is employed and suffers another accident,
he shall get the ordinary compensation through the compensation
law; but if he is totally incapacitated, the difference between the
compensation for total incapacity and ordinary compensation shall
come out of a State fund. That State fund is made up by the in
surance companies or the employers paying to the State $500 or
$1,000 every time a worker dies leaving no dependents. New York
and various other States have that sort o f a law, but all of our
States will have to have it before we can make much progress in
the employment of the handicapped. We tried to get it last year
in Pennsylvania, but the bill didn’t go through. All evidence points
to the fact that it would be much easier for us to place the handi
capped if we could get that modification in the workmen’s compen
sation act.
Chairman S e i p l e . I agree that that is helpful and worth working
for. We have something similar to that in Ohio, and it is helpful;
but it doesn’t go as far as the Canadian Government does. In Ohio
the compensation law has been amended so that in case a man with
only one arm is employed and he should lose the other arm, then the
obligation of the employer is not that for total disability but only
for the loss of the member sustained in his employment. However,
that does not remove the thought in the mind of the employer that
possibly the man with one arm is more likely to lose the second
arm because of his inability to function as capably and be as active
as the man with both arms. Possibly the arm is not so good an
illustration as eyesight or some other disability which might result
in greater hazard. This, we find, is our difficulty in Ohio, that while
the total disability has been relieved, the possibility o f greater hazard
to the employer in employing a partially handicapped person is
still there. Any further discussion?
Mr. D o l l e n (New Y ork). I wish to congratulate the Canadian
contingent this morning because I am thoroughly convinced that
Canada is about 10 years ahead of us in the solution of the handi
capped problem, as well as in the conduct of its employment offices.
When I entered the Rochester office, it Had a representative of the
American Legion placing handicapped men. But that man had
never been handicapped, nor had he ever smelled powder, so far
as I know. Now we have what is known as the rehabilitation divi
sion. Not a man in that rehabilitation division in the State of
New York, to my knowledge, ever was handicapped.
34
SEV E N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETING-----1. A. P. E. S.
The trouble with our men who place handicapped men is that
they do not understand the problem themselves, because they have
never known what it is to be handicapped.
In the city o f Rochester, I have never been turned down when
I have taken a handicapped returned soldier, whom I was thor
oughly convinced was worthy of rehabilitation and could be reha
bilitated, and presented him to the general manager or the employ
ment manager, and stated his case. But there are cases that I can
not handle. I am sorry that the head of the rehabilitation depart
ment was not here this morning to hear that splendid paper of Mr.
Hudson’s, because that is just what we want in the State o f New
York.
We have something in New York that perhaps Canada has not.
From time to time, the special agent from the fourth and fifth
judicial districts is called on to establish a rate of wage for the
handicapped, or the man to be rehabilitated, and in that way, to a
lesser or greater extent—I might say greater extent—we are able
to relieve the manufacturer o f the compensation liability. But I
think that what we are more seriously confronted with as a barrier
in the State of New York is the medical examination. That is where
we fall down. Many times we are told that the man will be em
ployed if he can pass the medical examination and physical test.
I know personally from private employment personnel management
how easy it is to disqualify a man looking for a job from that
standpoint.
Rehabilitation in the United States has been sadly neglected, in
my opinion, because it is not conducted, as it is in Canada, by men
who are crippled or handicapped themselves, as leaders and directors
o f the placement of the physically handicapped and the re
habilitated.
What I would like to know from Mr. Hudson is, What is the
attitude in general o f the employers and of the city and county
officials with reference to aiding the cripple divisions
Chairman S e i p l e . I will ask Mr. Dobbs to answer the question.
Mr. D o b b s . In order to understand Mr. Dollen’s question—you
wanted to know the help given by the city authorities and the
provincial authorities ?
Mr. D o l l e n . By the provincial and the Dominion authorities.
Mr. D o b b s . Under the Dominion law, the civil service act of
Canada, we have an order No. 214-1130, which gives preferential
employment to all the war disabled in civil service appointments.
They also have preference under the act—that is the Dominion
Government’s share. In reference to the provincial government,
there is an enactment that disabled ex-service men will get prefer
ence in employment. On the books of the city council o f Toronto,
there is a by-law that ex-service men will get preferential employ
ment in all civic positions.
We never interfere in the matter of wages. Our policy is, in
placing a disabled man, to show the employer that in a particular
job the man is just as efficient as any other man and he will get the
ordinary wage. There are no references to sympathy, charity, or
anything else. We prove to the employer that the man is of value
H ANDICAPPED W ORKER— DISCUSSION
35
to him in his organization and his establishment. The city council
has employed and is employing quite a number of disabled men;
and the public utilities, through the Toronto Transportation Com
mission, employ a number of disabled men.
The Dominion Government has a fair-wage policy, of which Mr.
Rigg had better speak because I do not know it very well and he
can answer that end o f the question. But there is preferential em
ployment, at least on the books, all the way through. The difficulty
is that a lot of our men are getting old, and their usefulness—
work value—is going down. You see it is a good many years since
the war.
Chairman S e i p l e . D o you care to say anything as to that, Mr.
Rigg?
Mr. R ig g . I do not know that I can add anything to what Mr.
Dobbs has already told you in answer to the question as propounded
bv Mr. Dollen. The reference which Mr. Dobbs made to the Do
minion Government’s fair-wage clause has reference merely to
Dominion Government work, or Dominion Government contracts,
where it is determined that so far as the rates of wages are con
cerned these rates shall be not less than the prevailing rates paid in
the district in which the work is being performed—that is to say,
the prevailing rates for competent workmen. Therefore, it is not left
to any contractor or any subcontractor to determine what rate, in
his estimation, a man ought to be paid, but whatever rate paid to
competent workmen prevails in the district in which the work is
being performed the contractor or subcontractor on all Canadian
Government work is obliged to meet that rate as a minimum basis of
payment.
Chairman S e i p l e . Before any further discussion, I would like to
add just a few words in regard to what Mr. Dollen has said.
I noted in Mr. Hudson s paper the employing in the handicap
section in Canada of handicapped men to carry, on the work. A
wonderful thought. I get perhaps just a little different slant than
Mr. Dollen does. I believe that the handicapped man in the employ
ment office is probably not as oversympathetic, in many instances,
as the man who is not handicapped, and I believe that is a good point.
My experience with handicapped workers is this. They are not
looking for sympathy—they do not want sympathy; and I believe
that, if upon their appearance in an employment office, they are
treated with an attitude of excessive sympathy we are defeating in
a way the aim of our service. They may be entitled to sympathy,
but they are not looking for it. The worthy handicapped applicant
just wants an opportunity to demonstrate that he can maintain
his place in society and stand on his feet among men. I believe
that the handicapped worker in the employment office feels the same
way about it, and that his attitude of mind in meeting another
handicap is just straightforward business, right to the point, as he
would like to be treated himself; and in my opinion therein lies the
chief advantage—not from the attitude of sympathy, but from the
attitude o f open dealing, on the same basis, with a man whose prob
lems are similar to his own.
Mr. M a n s f ie l d (Pennsylvania). There is a little matter I wanted
to bring to the attention of the convention, primarily because I have
36
SE VE N TE E N T H A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
here so many colleagues from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania,
who no doubt are up against the same proposition we are in the
matter o f handicapped workers.
What we have m mind is this, and it will apply particularly to
the sections wherein steel and coal are the principal products. As
you all know, we are located at Johnstown in the heart of the
central bituminous district. I know of no two employments which
contribute more in the way of cripples and physically handicapped
people than those two industries, steel and coal. Naturally, we have
a large list of applicants handicapped through occupations in these
industries. In endeavoring to take care of these people, while our
relations are most pleasant with the large operators m our district
and while there is always a disposition to help, yet every place we go
we come up against the same point, in the question—“ Owing to
the nature of our employment and the number of people who are
handicapped by being injured and permanently crippled through
employment with us, what are we going to do to help the outside
fellow when we can’t begin to take care of the fellows we cripple ? ”
Take the steel industry, as we have it, in all its ramifications of
manufacture of everything known in the steel category, and you
naturally know and recognize the fact that there are cripples of
all sorts and kinds—limbs off, eyes out, and so forth.
When you take a man, whatever his qualifications may be, before
the representative of one of these steel or coal concerns, and ask
that he be given an interview and developed along such lines as he
may be able to do and do well, they say, “ Well, Mansfield, we would
be glad to help you if we could, but we have got so many of our
own that we don’t know what to do with them.” Then they also
say, “ And on the other hand, if something else happens to them,
then we are up against it.” In other words, the compensation law,
which was intended to help, handicaps. Now, if we of Pennsyl
vania had back of us what Mr. Dobbs has, then possibly this thing
would be simplified. The jobs are there, the men are with us to fill
them; but you are not going to take a man into your plant who is
likely to prove a liability the moment you hire him. It isn’t human
nature to do those things. I f employers could realize this fact,
that they had behind them something whereby, when an accident
did happen, they would not have to bear all the burden, then they
could share these easier types of jobs with these handicapped people.
I think there is no better place in the world than this convention
for our people who are higher up not only to hear, but to act, in an
endeavor to get something to stand behind us in our efforts to take
care of the handicaps.
I have in mind one of the exceptional firms which actually has
the crippled fellow at heart. I f I were to give you the name it
would be recognized in the convention, I am satisfied, for the firm
is nationally known. The general manager called me up one morn
ing, and said, “ Frank, I want you to send me a man, who is an
old man. I want you to send me a man who is crippled, a man
who hasn’t been able to get a job. And if he has a wife still depend
ing on him, whom he can hardly support, and maybe she is doing
washing, that is the fellow I want, providing he has a good character
and is honest.” I had a man on my list who had lost his left arm
H AN DICAPPED W O RKER— DISCUSSION
37
in a railroad accident. It was a prominent railroad at that, but
through some series of manipulations and this, that, and the other
thing, and red tape which couldn’t all be quite unwound, after
a period o f a certain amount of compensation he lost out. Then he
went to a steel company, which out of sympathy, put him on a job
that was almost, you might say, accepting charity. Yet he took it.
He worked there, the years kept passing, and finally he was over
73 years o f age. Then a slack time came on in the mill, in which
even the able-bodied didn’t have steady employment, the old fellow
was laid off because of lack of work. This lasted some three or
four months. After things began to pick up and the men com
menced to return to employment, the old fellow hustled back and
discovered that the company had not reached the point yet where
he could be used. Still he kept on going back again and again, but
every trip he made he began to be more discouraged, to lose heart,
and his morale was broken. Naturally^ you know, when you break
a man’s morale, as a rule you break his health with it. At about
this point came this peculiar order from this firm for a man. I
sent this man to the general manager and said, “As far as honesty,
integrity, dependability, or anything of that kind, is concerned,
I will vouch for him personally. He has a wife, an aged wife,
to keep; they have a little home which is fast being eaten away in
order to keep body and soul together. Now it is up to you to look
him over, see whether you can verifv what I have said. And if
you can, and you do employ him, I feel that you will get service.”
The man took the introductory card we furnish, went for his
interview, and got the job. He came back to me about two hours
later, and I would have sworn he was 15 years younger. To-day,
after five years, he is on the same job, and one of the most trusted
employees of .the company. That is what the old man and the
handicapped man can do, if they have a chance.
Chairman S e i p l e . We still have other features on the program,
and if there is no objection, after recognizing Mr. Miles, who has
previously asked for the floor, we will close the discussion.
Mr. M il e s (Ohio). I have never seen a law put on a statute book
yet that didn’t have to have another one to correct some of the
evils brought out by the first law.
In 1914 we started with the workmen’s compensation in a serious
manner. As soon as the employers had to comply with that, they
found that they had some evils to correct. Consequently, in one
year 44 establishments adopted the physical examination, not only
o f employees, but of applicants for work. Inasmuch as the em
ployers had to pay compensation, they only wanted to have the
physically perfect—no defective men. Fortunately, the war, at
that time, played a part. In 1915 they were going along pretty
seriously with this physical examination, with the result that a
tremendous number of unemployables were developed in the State
o f Ohio. We started out with the handicap department in connec
tion with our employment office, and didirt get very far with it.
We soon found we had to divorce the handicap department from
our employment offices.
During the war the demand for men was such that the physical
examination Had to be abandoned. After the war was over we
38
SEVE N TE E N T H A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
found that we still had our industrials, but we weren’t so hard hit
with the war handicapped as other States. The law was changed
so as to relieve the employer from liability for the permanent total
disability. It finally simmered down to the American Legion taking
care o f the physically handicapped of the war, the industrial handi
caps being taken care of by the employers, and as far as our office
is now concerned, we have practically eliminated and divorced all
handicap departments from it, because we do not want, in the com
petition with the private employment agencies, the employer to feel
that when he is calling our office he must hesitate for fear he is
going to have a handicapped man sent to him. So in some of the
cases that was taken care of through charity organizations, through
the American Legion, and through other social activities.
Sometimes the commissioners are up against the proposition of
getting a permanent partial case off their hands, and then they
send word down to the employment office to see if we can not place
a man somewhere. In such a case the man is taken with a definite
understanding; the superintendent of the employment office sends
definite notice that the man has this industrial handicap and states
his case, and he tries to place the man. But we have not gone very
far with it. In some o f the cities where we had established close
cooperation as to handicaps, we have practically abandoned it so
far as the employment offices are concerned.
Mr. B o y d (Illinois). Mr. Chairman, although you stated that the
last speaker would close the discussion, this is such an important
question that I do not feel like letting the opportunity go by without
letting you know something of what we have in Chicago.
While we have not set up an organization such as Mr. Hudson
describes in Canada, nevertheless we have been doing something for
the last year along that line. Our soldiery is not taken care of in
our office at all. For a number of years we had a handicap division,
and we were not progressing with it because we did not put enough
money in it. We had only one person handling that division, and
it ran down so that it was necessary to abandon it entirely. We
were merely throwing away the wages paid to that individual. The
social agencies, however, found that we were of some service to
them in this handicapped work, and greatly deplored the necessity
o f our discontinuing the handicap division. In working with that,
we formed an organization in which they could join us and thus
employ a man who was thoroughly familiar with the placement of
handicapped people, as he had had training in the rehabilitation
o f soldiers. O f course we had no money in our office to meet the
expenses of hiring this particular man. His salary was $300 a
month, and the best we could give in our office was $145 a month.
The difference was met out of the budget of the social agencies.
Then a woman who was working on the cardiac and tuberculosis
cases for the social service agencies was also assigned to our office.
In that way we had two thoroughly trained people, a man who had
dealt with handicapped people for years, and a woman who was
dealing with cardiacs—heart disease—and tubercular cases.
We added a stenographer from our office, so the expense of that
division, as far as the free-employment offices of the State of Illinois
H AN DICAPPED W ORKER---- DISCUSSION
39
are concerned, amounts to $145 for the man and $125 for the stenog
rapher. The woman gets $200 a month, $100 each being paid by the
heart and tubercular agencies, and she places, giving particular
interest to the particular cause, the man and woman who have heart
trouble and the man and woman affected with tuberculosis. They
know where to place these cases, because reports from hospitals come
in as to what the applicants can do, so that they will not be put into
some work which will throw them back again as hospital patients.
These reports are collected through the Chicago Council of Social
Agencies. Every applicant is required to have a report as to his
physical condition or whether he has been to any of the institutions.
A handicapped person is a liability, as has just been said by the
gentleman from Ohio. Both workmen’s compensation and pensions
work against the handicapped person. There is no question about
that. Employers will tell you, “ We can’t employ them; we will lose
our insurance; we can’t cover ourselves under the workmen’s com
pensation act if we employ a man or woman of that kind. We would
rather go down in our pockets and give you $500 than to put one of
those people in our factory.” That is the statement of many em
ployers to-day—some of them, of course, not all; but for the one that
will open his heart sympathetically to a handicapped person there are
10 who will close their eyes and say, “ Boyd, if you want $100 I will
give it to you. I f you want $500 I will give it to you. But don’t
put them on us. We don’t want them.”
We are going to start a workshop which will take care of some of
those handicapped people and train them in some lines of business.
We place some handicapped people, but the cost is tremendous. I f
you people ever figure up the cost of a placement in the various
special lines o f work—see how much it is costing you to-day to place
clerks, for instance—you will find the cost is tremendous; and as you
go into the higher classes, more difficult classes, the cost is still greater.
Handicaps are a tremendous expense to place, when you come to
figure out the special attention that you must give to them and the
reports that must be made. The cost is nothing, however, if we can
satisfy them in a job.
From one o f our large chain stores—one of our large department
stores, mail-order houses, if you please—I had an order (just as the
gentleman from Pennsylvania spoke of) for a man of older age—this
man had an artificial hand, he was about 45 or 50 years of age, and
fitted the job nicely. It was a floorwalker’s job, meeting the public
coming in, and advising them where to go from department to de
partment, and walking up with them. He didn’t need two hands to
do that; and his artificial hand didn’t interfere with that work. By
the way, we got that hand for him from our Federal-State rehabili
tation bureau of civilian handicaps. We fitted him up very nicely
and put him in a very nice position, one that he could fill well.
It is a question if the man who has reached the age of 40 or 45
years to-day is employable or unemployable. It is also a question as
to whether he is handicapped under the rules adopted by many of the
organizations who to-day have a personnel service. They will not
employ men over 35, 40, or 45 years of age. I might say that there
38852°—31------4
40
S E VEN TEEN TH A N N U A L M EETIN G— I. A. P . E. S.
isn’t a public utility in Chicago to-day that will employ a man over
40 years of age—not one. The electric company, the telephone com
pany, the gas company—no matter where you go in a public utility—
will not employ a man over 40 years of age. That applies not only to
them, but also to 90 per cent of the industrial companies; and you
have it right here in Pennsylvania.
Chairman S e ip l e . Mr. Boyd, is that on the subject of the handi
capped worker?
Mr. B o y d . I am trying to place the man of 45 in the class of handi
capped men.
Colonel H i c k s (Pennsylvania). Why do we use the word, “ handi
capped ” ? To me it sounds like a record, or a roll. Can’t you folks
give some consideration to giving it some other name? We are all
handicaps, mentally and physically. Let us see if we can not get
that down so that you grade your people, from the president down—
put your men in a grade, and ask for a position of that grade.
Chairman S e i p l e . That is a question I can not answer, as to why
we call them handicaps. It seems to be the common usage, as many
other words are, and for lack o f a better we follow it.
Before introducing the next speaker, I would like to ask this ques
tion which Mr. Boyd has brought up, that is, can Mr. Dobbs tell us
if they have any figures on what the cost o f placing a handicap is ?
Mr. D obbs . I am sorry, but I haven’t anj figures on that. Mr.
Odam is going to touch on that subject in his address; it will, how
ever, be general.
Miss O d e n k r a n t z . I am connected with the Employment Center
for the Handicapped in New York City, and we figured out that the
cost of placement is at least $20; that is, figuring our expenses over
a period of two years with a number of placements; and a good many
o f those places were very temporary. So, as Mr. Boyd says, it is an
extremely expensive proposition.
Chairman S e i p l e . N o doubt it is expensive from a financial stand
point, if we consider the service in dollars and cents. However, I
believe that this is one branch o f the employment service where we
have no right, in reality, to place paramount importance on the finan
cial cost o f placing people of that type in employment. There is a
greater obligation involved.
In conclusion, I want to say that I believe the discussion that has
been brought out on this subject and the discussion that would con
tinue if we didn’t call a halt at this time is positive evidence of its
importance so far as the public employment officials of this associa
tion and the members who are not represented here, and even folks
who are not members o f the association are concerned with the
problem o f placing handicapped workers.
The arrangement of this program evidently was made with the
thought that Canada should have its day at this time. After listen
ing to Mr. Hudson I am sure that you are glad arrangement was
made that the next speaker should also be from Canada.
I now take pleasure in introducing a man I met two years ago
for the first time, and for whom I have a great deal of aamiration,
Mr. A. J. Odam, who will speak to us upon the subject of The
Efficiency of Public Employment Services.
SE VE N TE E N T H A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A. P. E. S.
41
Efficiency o f Public E m ploym ent Services
By A. J. Odam, Statistician Department of Labor of Canada
I f the expenditure of public funds for employment offices is to be
continued and extended the services rendered by these offices must
be o f such value that they are a real benefit to the public. This, of
course, is difficult to figure in dollars and cents, but still the expendi
ture involved should be in proportion to the activities, and it is
upon a cost basis principally that I shall endeavor to show “ the
efficiency of public employment services.” The question then imme
diately presented is, How are these activities to be measured?
Should the number o f employers seeking workers be considered as
a standard or should the number of requests for employment from
persons desirous of securing work be the criterion? Or again,
should the number of persons for whom employment is found be
taken? Or might any other means be suggested for adoption in
order to ascertain whether the services performed represent full
value for the expenditure involved ? It is generally recognized that
the number of placements effected gives a fair indication of the
services rendered, since placements really represent where both em
ployer and worker are brought together; furthermore, the adoption
of this method makes possible a comparison between the expense
entailed in operating public offices and the fees charged by private
agencies. If, then, in dealing with the question o f the efficiency
of public employment services it may be assumed that placement
cost is a fair indication of the price factor in services rendered, may
I in this analysis be pardoned for confining my remarks to Canadian
offices.
The public employment offices of Canada, operating in all Prov
inces except Prince Edward Island, are controlled by the Provincial
overnments, but they are linked together into a coordinated system,
nown as the Employment Service of Canada, under the employ
ment offices coordination act, a law passed by the Federal Parlia
ment in 1918. There are at present operating under this act offices
in the 65 centers of chief industrial importance distributed among
the Provinces o f Canada as follows: Nova Scotia, 3; New Bruns
wick, 3; Quebec, 6; Ontario, 25; Manitoba, 3; Saskatchewan, 9;
Alberta, 5; British Columbia, 11. Although there were public
employment offices in Canada prior to 1918, the Province of Ontario
being the first— as early as 1907—it was not until March, 1919, that
the present nation-wide system of public employment offices com
menced to function. Thus it is possible to take a 10-year period as
a basis for comparison.
During the years from April 1, 1919, to March 31, 1929, 4,093,478
persons were placed in employment through the offices of the Em
ployment Service o f Canada, at an average cost of $1.11 per place
ment. As might be expected, there were considerable variations in
the average cost for each year, the amounts ranging from 98 cents
in 1919-20 and 99 cents in 1928-29 to $1.32 for each o f the years
1921-22 and 1924-25. It is interesting to note that the two high-cost
years were years of industrial depression, while the low costs were
maintained when opportunities for employment were plentiful.
f
42
SEV E N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETING-----1. A. P . E.
s.
This, o f course, is what might be expected, as the cost of operating
varies very slightly from year to year, with the result that the place
ment cost is governed almost entirely by the number o f placement?
effected. Owing to the fact that in the case of transfers one office
only—the shipping office—gets credit for the placement, although
two or more of&ces may contribute to the work involved, no figures
have been prepared showing the cost of placement for each indi
vidual office. Costs for each Province, however, are computed and
o f these, two show marked variation, attributable for the most part
to the nature o f the employment in which the worker is ordinarily
placed. In the prairie Provinces where farm placements predomi
nate the costs are low, the minimum being reached last year by
Alberta, where the average was only 57 cents per placement. It
should not be assumed from this that farm placements entail small
effort on the part of officials. Most of the farm placements are made
during rush periods, at seeding and harvest, and it is necessary,
particularly during the latter period, for officials o f the service to
be on duty for long hours in order to cope with the work involved.
Mainly owing to the activities of the Employment Service of
Canada, there are at the present time only about 25 fee-charging
private employment agencies in Canada, chiefly located in the Prov
inces o f Ontario and Quebec. The fees charged by these agencies
are at the present time $2 in Ontario and from $2 to $3 in Quebec,
although amounts considerably in excess o f these were frequently
taken before public offices were a factor in the employment market
and fees restricted by Government regulation. In 1919 there were
over 50 private fee-charging agencies in Canada, there being then
such offices in Alberta, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick, as well as
in Ontario and Quebec. Offices were, however, abolished by pro
vincial legislation in the three former Provinces very shortly after
the passing of the employment offices coordination act, and as stated
previously such agencies are now largely confined to Ontario and
Quebec, and their number has been reduced to less than half. Re
ports from private agencies for all months not having been received,
it is impossible to give exact figures for the 10 years, but during that
time less than 500,000 persons were placed by all such agencies, in
contrast to the more than 4,000,000 placed by public offices. The
average cost for the public offices was $1.11, against a minimum of
$2 for the private agencies, or a saving to the public at large of at
least 89 cents per placement.
In order to be quite fair in these comparisons some analysis of
the placement work is necessary. Some private agencies claim that
as a matter of policy they make no charge when placing a man in
a short-time job, in order to retain his patronage. Reports col
lected by the Provincial governments of Ontario and Quebec from
these agencies, however, show that they make few such placements,
they representing less than 1 per cent of the total, and in this num
ber are included nurses from whom it is probable that an annual or
term fee is collected. The Employment Service o f Canada, on
the other hand, makes a considerable number of placements in
casual employment—that is, work of one week’s duration or less—
and such placements are included in the computation of the average
cost. During the 10 years, 1,011,583 casual placements were effected,
this representing a little under 25 per cent of the total. Should
E FFIC IEN CY OF PU BLIC E M P LO Y M E N T SERVICES
43
these casual placements be excluded and the entire cost of opera
tion allocated to regular placements only, the average cost would be
$1.47, or 53 cents less than the minimum charged by private agencies.
It is not, however, reasonable to consider that no service has been
rendered to a person for whom casual employment has been found;
quite the contrary is the case, as very frequently placements of
this nature lead to permanent employment. One of the most decided
advantages the public office has to offer the worker over the private
is that it is ready to assist persons in securing temporary employ
ment when they are incapable, either due to domestic obligations or
physical disability, of undertaking work of a more permanent
character. Should it be assumed, moreover, that the service ren
dered in placing a person in casual employment is not equal to that
given when permanent work is found and an amount of, say, 50
cents, arbitrarily fixed as a fair charge for casual placements, the
average cost for placements other than casual would be $1.31, or
69 cents less than the minimum charged by private agencies. From
a monetary standpoint, then, from the point of view of costs to
the public, these figures clearly demonstrate that the public offices of
Canada are giving more efficient service than the private agencies.
Unfortunately, owing to lack of detailed information with regard
to private agencies, it is impossible to compare their work with
that o f public offices in many of its phases, but upon an occupational
and industrial basis, the public offices cover a much wider field. It
should be likewise remembered that one of the most important
functions o f a public office—the transfer of workers from localities
where their services are not in demand to a point where there is a
shortage, commonly known as “ clearance ”—is not touched by the
private agency. During the year ended March 31, 1929— and these
figures would be approximately the same for preceding years—
the offices of the Employment Service of Canada made 31,939 place
ments through “ clearance,” all of which entail work for at least
two offices. O f these, 12,704 were Provincial transfers and 19,235
interprovincial. Added together, they represent nearly 7 per cent
of the total placements effected. Nearly 48 per cent of all place
ments are in work outside the immediate locality in which the
office making such placements is situated, and although in many
cases a placement o f this kind requires no more attention than a
local placement, a large number of these workers receive a certificate
which entitles them to a reduced transportation rate. This rate,
which is 2.7 cents per mile, with a minimum fare of $4, has been
secured by the Employment Service of Canada from the railway
companies for the benefit of bona fide applicants traveling to dis
tant employment for which no workers are available locally. Dur
ing the last fiscal year there were 42,235 of these certificates issued,
which means that 1 out o f every 11 persons placed benefited by
this special transportation rate.
Some indication o f the general principles observed by the public
offices in Canada in their dealings with the public is revealed in the
conditions embodied in the annual agreements between the Federal
and Provincial Governments under which subventions are paid by
the Federal Government to the Provinces for their assistance in
financing employment-service work. These conditions include:
44
SE VEN TEEN TH A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
(1) To provide a free service to all patrons of the offices;
(2) To endeavor to place any applicant, whether male or female,
without any discrimination;
(3) To endeavor to fill vacancies in any trade or occupation;
(4) To notify workers being dispatched by the offices to employ
ment affected by an industrial dispute that a dispute exists;
(5) To adopt a neutral attitude with respect to wages in employ
ment office transactions;
(6) To establish Provincial clearance systems for the transfer of
unemployed labor from district to district as may be necessary;
(7) To cooperate with the Federal clearing houses for the inter
provincial transfer of labor.
These conditions, which are so essential to the efficient operation
o f an employment office, are very closely adhered to by every public
office in Canada, and it is the deficiency of such guiding principles
in the private offices that emphasizes the advantage o f the public
office.
The Great War left Canada with more than 60,000 ex-soldiers suf
fering from war disabilities of varying degrees, most of whom find
it necessary to supplement their pensions by engaging in gainful
employment. The physical handicaps of these men, however, make
it particularly difficult to place them in industry. Lack of industrial
training before becoming handicapped, loss of efficiency at their nor
mal tasks due to their physical disabilities, and the inherent preju
dices on the part of some employers against engaging workers not
100 per cent physically fit have all militated against the rapid and
permanent absorption of this relatively large number o f workers
into industry. Since 1923 the work o f placing these men has de
volved upon the employment service, and special provision has been
made in the larger centers to handle the situation. Special officers
for interviewing and placing handicapped ex-service men have been
engaged, with the result that 8,959 o f these workers were placed in
jobs o f varying duration last year. As a result of the additions to
staff made necessary in connection with the placement of handi
capped ex-service men, the average cost for all placements during
the past five years has been increased by about 5 cents. That only
this small amount was necessary is due to the low ratio which this
work bears to the activities of the service as a whole. The cost of
placing handicapped ex-soldiers during the year ending March 31,
1929, was approximately $2.85, and it is of interest to compare
these figures with the cost incurred by a committee which undertook
work o f a similar kind.
About five years ago there was established in one of the largest Ca
nadian cities a committee composed of leading business men, for the
purpose of endeavoring to place permanently in employment handi
capped ex-service men. The thought at the back of this move was
that through the contacts of the committeemen places would be
found in industry for the applicants where they would be sympa
thetically fitted into permanent work. Quite substantial subsidies
were paid by the Federal Government to enable the committee to
engage staff and conduct its office. After three years of effort the
committee was dissolved and the work was transferred to the Em
ployment Service of Canada. The most interesting feature of the
EFF IC IE N C Y OF PU B LIC SERVICES---- DISCUSSION
45
experiment was this, that while the handicap section of the Employ
ment Service o f Canada in that city was handling and continued to
handle almost precisely the same work at a cost of $2.85 per place
ment, the comparable cost o f the committee’s work was over $100.
This illustration is given, o f course, without any reflection on the
efficiency o f the rehabilitation committee, which of necessity had to
carry on its work along lines different from those followed by the
employment service; but it serves further to emphasize the efficiency
of public employment offices when considered from a monetary
viewpoint.
As the majority of the delegates present have direct charge of
employment offices or are closely associated with their management,
it would be presumption on my part to offer any suggestions with
regard to organization, supervision, selection and training of per
sonnel, publicity, clearance, etc. These questions are, however, very
important and strict attention to them is essential to the efficient
operation o f any employment office. That they play an important
part in the work o f the public offices of Canada has, I believe, been
demonstrated by the figures given. It is not claimed that the Em
ployment Service of Canada is perfect by any means. There are,
however, many offices functioning very efficiently and, were it not
so, the placement cost for the whole service would not be so low;
but what is more important, it has firmly established for itself a
place in the economic life of the country, it possesses the confidence
of the public which it serves and its 11 years of continuous opera
tion are but the forerunner of a long and useful career.
Lest statistical comparison with private employment offices might
be misleading, there is another viewpoint that should not be over
looked when considering the efficiency of public employment services.
The private agency, being operated for profit, can not serve the
employment market in all its phases to the same extent as the public
office, where the service is the governing principle. There are, more
over, very few services which the State can make to its citizens which
are more important than that o f providing a means through which
they can obtain employment. No system of employment service can
be regarded as satisfactory which denies those who are unable to pay
a fee—no matter how small—full information as to where work
is available for them, and any community with a true sense of its
responsibilities should place its collective strength at the disposal
o f its weakest members for the purpose o f aiding and encouraging
them in their direst hour of need. It is, therefore, incumbent on
each o f us, individually and collectively, to use every means in our
power to extend the scope of public employment offices so that they
may be available to everyone desirous of assistance in securing
employment in the countries represented at this meeting.
DISCUSSION
Chairman S eip le. Canada never fails. I sat here and wondered
how it was possible to collect and give with such positive assurance
definite facts and figures regarding the great Employment Service
o f Canada, apparently worked out scientifically and completely.
There was no doubt in the mind of the speaker as to just how much
the cost of this or that was. That is system—a Federal system.
46
SEVE N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETING— I. A. P. E. S.
They therefore have splendid arguments to use in any instance where
they may be necessary or explanations may be asked.
I was very much interested in Mr. Odam’s paper, and I am sure
that it is going to be of great assistance to employment people
in this country, when it is published and distributed, in promoting
the work in the United States. We need every assistance we can get
in the way o f argument, conclusive evidence, to bring forth wher
ever it may do the most good, to indicate tnat the money that is
being expended for the service is properly expended as necessary.
It is not a sympathetic movement, nor is it charitable. It is a busi
ness movement; it is an economic movement of such moment, it
seems to me, that it should attract the attention of high officials
who can be reached only through the general public.
I am pleased to open this subject for discussion, and will be glad
to hear from anyone who would like to ask questions or add
comment.
Mr. E d d y . Mr. Odam referred to casuals as being those who were
placed for one week or less. Has this association ever gone on record
as drawing a line as to who is a casual and who is not? Wouldn’t
it be a good idea when talking of employment to know throughout
this country and Canada and in this association that a casual is a
man who has been placed for a certain length of time, and that a
permanent placement was someone placed for longer than a week
or two weeks.
Chairman S e i p l e . T o my knowledge, this association has never
gone on record as establishing any definite period of time as the
limit of casual or the beginning of permanent employment. I be
lieve it is customary in every office to have a definite limit, and pos
sibly it is uniform in some States, but I am almost certain it is not
uniform throughout the United States. Fortunately, Canada, hav
ing complete centralization, can establish uniform methods and their
figures are therefore uniform. We are still striving to bring about
uniform methods in the United States. We have a committee that
is expected to report on uniform methods at the business session of
this convention. But unless I am mistaken, there has never been
any action taken by this association. I believe Director Jones might
give information, if such be available, as to just where casual em
ployment stops and permanent employment begins.
Mr. J o n e s (Washington, D. C.). At this time, I would prefer not
to make any expression. The matter is under consideration; I
brought the matter up at the Rochester convention, and I hoped the
committee appointed then would function; but for some reason or
other they were unable to get together. I would like to have the
various classes o f workers stipulated, just what a casual worker
means, and what other workers are, in order that our reports may
be uniform. I have my opinion in the matter, but at this time I
prefer to take the matter up with the committee and discuss it with
them rather than on the floor of this convention.
Chairman S e i p l e . Is there any further discussion?
Mr. D o l l e n . Before this discussion is closed it is important for
me to ask Mr. Odam a question, and that is as to what he does in
the matter of sending employees where there is trouble on the job—
EFFICIENTCY OF PU B LIC SERVICES— DISCUSSION
47
supplying help to jobs where there are strikes. Another question
in my mind is as to the casuals. To my mind, that is like “ x ” in
geometry.
One more thing that is uppermost in my mind is the cost o f
placement which a few years ago was 62 cents plus rent. What I am
interested in is, not the cost, but rather the matter of placing a man
in a job and his family in front of a square meal. That is my posi
tion as far as cost goes.
Mr. O d a m . The first question, with regard to strikes, I thought
was covered in the paper. It is one of the regulations or conditions
under which the Federal subventions are made to the Provinces.
I f an order is listed with an employment office where a strike exists,
when applicants apply for work o f that kind they are told that the
job is there but that an industrial dispute exists, and that they are
going there under those conditions.
Mr. R ig g . And in the event of the applicant undertaking to go
to the job, his card is stamped, “ Strike on.”
Chairman S e i p l e . We have here at least one representative of
industry who has been attending these sessions since the start yes
terday morning. This man is a manufacturer. We have a num
ber of persons attending these conferences who are representatives
of personnel departments, but not often do we have the manufacturer
come here and stay with us for a period. I would like to offer the
opportunity to Mr. Hoppes, from West Chester, Pa., to say a word
to us if he cares to at this time.
Mr. H o p p e s . A ll I can say is that I am not a manufacturer in a
large way. I am one of the smaller manufacturers in a nearby
town, about 20 miles from here. I came here to learn what the
work of your association is, under the invitation that came in the
notice sent out by Mr. Lloyd. I have learned a great deal and feel
that I have profited very much by coming and listening to you; but
I can see that there is so much to learn that when I go away I don’t
know whether I will have a very clear idea of it.
I can see that you are all very earnest and doing a wonderful
work, and I would like to know if the press is represented here now
and whether suitable reports will go out. That seems to me the
weakest thing that I noticed about this gathering; there is no ade
quate report going into the daily papers that I have been able to see.
I can only repeat that you have been doing a wonderful work
and that I am especially inspired by what the gentlemen from Can
ada have brought before us, and I hope that our State, as well as
the rest o f the country, will profit by it very much.
Chairman S e i p l e . Another representative of industry here this
morning whom I would like to recognize is Mr. H. M. Hoover, per
sonnel director of the Armstrong Cork Co., of Lancaster.
Mr. H oo ve r . It has been a real privilege for me to sit in on your
deliberations and listen to what you have had to say. I feel that
I have been repaid for coming here. I don’t know exactly what my
status is, but I would like to say a few words from the employer’s
point of view. I have been listening with a great deal of interest
to these various papers that were read on a problem I believe we
are mutually interested in, the problem of the unemployed and the
48
SEV E N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETIN G ---- 1. A. P . E. S.
unemployable. Your particular service interests me also because I
happen to be associated with your council in this State, the chair
man of your local council, and have been, since the inception of this
movement, interested in it.
I have always felt it was the duty of the Government in some
way to place the man out of a job and the iob together, if it was
possible to do so; that is, that the soldier or industry whose work
was constructive should be taken care of by the State. The par
ticular thing that I am impressed with is the work you are trying to
do here. Now, from the employer’s point of view, he is looking for
certain specific things that are forced upon him by circumstances
beyond his control. He is in a competitive market; he must meet the
requirements of that industry in the most efficient way that he pos
sibly can, and that means that he has to surround himself with help
that is absolutely efficient. Such efficiency is becoming constantly
greater, and I think we are all profiting from that. The very fact
that we are producing efficiently, making it possible to live the splen
did lives that it is possible for everybody in this day and age to live,
is evidence of that. We don’t want to decrease efficiency. The
cheapening of the product, placing it within the reach of a larger
number of people, makes it possible to-day for working men to
enjoy things that kings could not dream ot enjoying a very short
time ago, even though they had all the resources of their dominions
at their command. When you send to the employer a representative
from your office, you must give him something efficient, something
that he can use to advantage.
The employer is just as sympathetic as you ever were, and I
believe that he would like to take care of the handicapped just as
well as any one of you would; but he is governed by inexorable laws,
not of his own making, and he must meet those conditions.
Now, if I might say anything to you, who are representatives of
the public employment service, it would be that you carry for your
slogan, “ Service,” just as every business of any value or of any im
portance in this or any other land carries for its slogan to-day,
“ Service.” You find the fine degree of service which men are giving
in order to gain trade in the hotel where you are stopping—the
little thoughtful things that are done for you to make you want
to come back here again. That is not confined to industry. In your
work as public-employment men, you have men coming before you
who want jobs, men who are willing to work but who can not find an
outlet for their energies. When an applicant comes before you and
you have a requisition to fill, try as nearly as you can to realize what
the employer is looking for. Do not pass the applicant up without
consideration, because he is very much in earnest; give him the
benefit of everything you have in the way of service, and you will
render to the employers o f the United States and the Dominion
of Canada the real worth-while service that industry and all phases
o f life to-day are demanding. Unless you can give that service, they
will go where they can get it.
It seems to me that the highest ideal anyone can devote his life
to is service, and particularly service to the human beings with whom
you are associated. I would like to bring that to you this morning
from the employers’ point of view. I believe they are glad to co
EFF IC IE N C Y OF PU B LIC SERVICES— DISCUSSION
49
operate in every way they can, provided you give them the service
they require, and in these days of industry, unless you do, somebody
who is giving that service is going to supply the people and you
will miss out so far as your annual report is concerned.
There is a real, definite responsibility upon every individual who
has contact with men and with jobs. Not only are you earning a
certain stipend per month as a result of your job, but if you are
really taking your job seriously and trying to fill that particular
niche in the world to which you have been appointed, if you are
trying to make your life count for something, you will recognize
in that individual before you a human necessity and you will leave
no stone unturned to render both to him and to the employer the
service which will finally bring the two together and bring happy
results for both of them.
Chairman S e i p l e . Mr. Hoover, on behalf of this association, I
thank you for your remarks. It indicates again to all of us that
we should have more representatives of industry here. They can
see and point out our shortcomings as possibly we can not for our
selves because we may be a little to close to the firing line. I would
like to say, Mr. Hoover, that the delegates representing the various
States and Provinces here have been sent by the governments thereof,
to represent the vast number o f workers who can not be here. The
small gathering here is representative of a much wider territory,
and of much larger scope than you might think in looking at the
number. They are delegated, as I am, to go back to their respective
States, cities, and Provinces, and carry the message as best they
can to those who couldn’t be here for lack of expense funds. So
your message this morning will be going back to possibly 20 or 25
States and I presume about 7 or 8 Provinces. Further than that,
the printed report of these meetings will be placed in the hands of
hundreds of people, and will, I believe, be read by a great many of
them and will carry weight.
You happen to be here in this morning session; I do not know
i f you have attended others when we were dealing with a very
highly sympathetic subject, when we were subject to the call of the
sympathies that are elicited for persons who are possibly not as
well able to look after themselves as we are. That sympathetic
mood which you may have interpreted as meaning that the public
employment service officials are interested in the applicant at the
expense o f the employer is erroneous. I f you will be here to-morrow
morning (and I sincerely hope that you will) to hear Director
Blake, from Ohio, deliver an address upon the value of a stand
ardized system o f employer visitation by accredited employees of
the public employment service, you will probably learn what some
of the States and Provinces are endeavoring to do through plant
visitation, so that the folks in the office may get into actual contact
with the personnel of the employment departments, in order to be
able to tell the prospective applicant accurately and correctly what
kind o f a plant he is going into, what kind of people he is going
to work with, just what the conditions are, and all about it. That
is our ambition, but we are up against a little problem, Mr. Hoover;
and here is where I think the employer can help us at the present
time. We want to do those things; we want to come out and see
50
SEVE N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETIN G ---- 1. A. P . E. S.
industry in its overalls, if you will, and become thoroughly pre
pared so that we can send you the kind o f help you want; but in
order to do that, we must have more support from our State gov
ernments, our Provincial governments. The employer should rec
ognize that our limitations in delivering service to him are probaEly caused by the lack of funds or the lack of ability to hire a
higher type ox employee in our office, the kind who can sympathize
and understand and really give service. I f this is a fault, it is the
fault of the governments which have not been approached from the
proper source to make them take notice of the fact that we must
have efficient, trained people, an adequate force, a suitable place to
house our activities, and a proper office set-up in order that we may
give personal interviews and get the information which the em
ployer must have before he places men in industry.
We are continually emphasizing the fact that this is employ
ment work, and not charity; and that the only service which we
can render to an applicant is in rendering an equal service to the
employer, and vice versa. It is no service whatever to the appli
cant to put him on a job for which he is not fitted, and it certainly
is no service to the employer. Our desire is to build up our service
in the States and Provinces so that we can reach as nearly as pos
sible the ideal that you have outlined for us here this morning.
[Meeting adjourned.]
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 25, 1929— AFTERNOON SESSION
Chairman, Georg© F. Miles, Chief Division of Labor Statistics and Employment Offices, Depart
ment of Industrial Relations of Ohio
Chairman M i l e s . I have a great deal of sympathy for the work
you have been doing. Having been formerly associated with this
association, I attended one or two of its sessions—in 1915, 1916, and
1917. So, while I am new to many of you, I am not new to the
organization.
I do not think we have had the subject of the next paper discussed,
at least not at any of the sessions I have attended. It is a very im
portant subject, Intangible Values in Employment Service. I have
the pleasure o f introducing to you Eugene C. Foster, from the
Indianapolis Foundation, who is also a member of the board of
directors of the Employment Service of Indiana.
Intangible Values in E m ploym ent Service
By
E u gen e O. F o s te r ,
of the Indianapolis Foundation
For several years, along with various other phases of volunteer
services, I was chairman o f the Wayfarers’ Lodge committee in one of
our middle-west cities, and it was my custom to spend my Saturday
evenings at the lodge, observing our work and endeavoring to make
it more effective. On© Sunday morning after such an evening of
observation I was on my way to church, down one of the thorough
fares o f our city, when a young man approached me as follows:
“ Good morning, partner, will you please give me a quarter for some
breakfast?” I recognized the young man as a guest at the W ay
farers’ Lodge the night before. I asked him if he were a stranger
in our city and where he had slept that night. He replied that
he was a stranger, and that he had slept at the “ W ood yard,” as
the lodge was sometimes called because of the work test conducted
there.
I asked him why he had not breakfasted there, and he replied
that they did not serve breakfast on Sunday mornings. I assured
him they did, and he replied, “ Well, partner, all they give a man
is a roll and one cup of coffee, and that isn’t enough for a hungry
man.” I assured him that he had been served with a bowl of soup
and a bowl o f coffee and all the bread he could eat, and that he
could have had more soup and more coffee for the asking. He
looked at me with a smile and said, u Humph! You must have been
a bum yourself, once.” I was probably the only citizen walking
down that thoroughfare who really knew how the Wayfarers’
Lodge handled transient men and what it fed them, but I nad not
been what he termed a “ bum ” to acquire that knowledge.
51
52
SE V E N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
This story has some significance 4s to why I am appearing before
you at this convention discussing “ values ” in employment services.
I am convinced that one does not have to be a “ bum ” to know some
thing o f the problem of transient boys and men, and that one may
gain some knowledge of unemployment problems and employment
bureaus without having actual experience as a director of a bureau.
In Cleveland I was for several years a member of the cooperative
employment committee which assisted in directing a vocational
bureau for women and girls, and for five years now I have been
serving on the board of directors of the Indianapolis Employment
Bureau. This bureau was initiated five y e a r s ago, as an experiment,
to facilitate employment in Indianapolis at 110 charge to anyone.
The Indianapolis Foundation, a community trust fund, was ap
pealed to by five of our local social agencies to maintain such a
service, and it has been continued under the same leadership and
direction, rendering, we believe, a larger service each year as we
become better acquainted with our city in relation to its employ
ment problems and with our applicants for employment. A citi
zens’ committee of some 16 men and women directs the policies of
this bureau.
The topics on your convention program readily impress one that
“ knowledge of facts ” is becoming more and more important in
the conduct of an employment servic^ just as older and better estab
lished services have found it to be. It will be the gateway through
which we will enter into a better and broader service to our appli
cants and to our communities, I am sure.
Some of our “ facts ” or findings, I believe, will be o f interest to you.
They have been gathered by a trained personnel, as our bureau is
conducted by private funds, making it possible to select for its staff
only those who are well qualified to render acceptable service. Our
director, George E. Gill, is present with you at this conference.
His educational background, with our State university and Columbia
University, and as a personnel director, makes him, we believe, an
outstanding leader in this field of service.
All our figures are verifiable. I f our placements are small com
pared with our number of applicants, that presents a problem in
unemployment to our board and to our community. It is signifi
cant we believe of a situation we are facing. Referrals with us are
never placements. We have more knowledge o f our clients than most
employment services because we take more time to get acquainted
with them. We also get acquainted with our employers and endeavor
to be fair and honest with both groups. When a bureau is less
fair and honest and understanding it can make more placements,
we well understand, but to whom it rendered a service?
Our bureau from its inception endeavored to perform two func
tions—employment agency function and community welfare func
tion. While we were organized primarily to do the first, the
importance of doing some of the second was very evident from the
beginning. We have alwrays felt that we should look at things
from the larger viewpoint having in mind the welfare o f all the
citizens o f Indianapolis. We have endeavored to attain to high
standards and to direct our work to carefully worked out policies.
We believe standards can be high and still attainable. To help people
INTA N G IBLE VALUES IN E M P LO Y M E N T SERVICE
53
find work at which they can do their best is one of our chief aims. It
is difficult to determine what a person is best fitted to d'6.
Our application blank, which is more detailed and inclusive than
most such forms, is carefully worked out, and the interview with
our staff representative and such references as the representative
chooses to seek are the basis of our acquaintance with and under
standing o f our applicants. A better acquaintance with and knowl
edge of our employers is sought by our director each year. He is a
member o f our personnel association.
Our records show that 20,861 different applicants have regis
tered with us during the past five years, and we have a record on
file o f all of these. From year to year information accumulates
and is recorded and very interesting facts appear. For instance,
of the 3,603 new applicants who registered with us during the past
year, with ages ranging from 14 to 63, the predominating ages,
according to their frequency, were 18, 19, 17, and 20. O f these
3,603 applicants 58 per cent were between 16 and 25. inclusive.
Only 12.7 per cent of this group were over 40 years o i age. We
have compiled data on the ages of 19,657 applicants who have regis
tered with us during the past five years and of this entire number
only 6.6 per cent gave their age as 50 and over, and only 16.8 per cent
as 40 and over. How we wish we had comparative figures, as care
fully selected, from other communities on this phase of our unem
ployment problem to learn if this situation maintains with other
bureaus and in other communities.
I f many bureau statistics should show similar findings, from
whence comes the publicity that men over 40 prove one of the out
standing problems in unemployment?
Period and place of residence have also been given consideration
in our findings. In July of this summer, for instance, in a study of
261 new registrants 111, or 42.5 per cent, had resided in Indianapolis
less than a year. O f these 111 who came from outside Indianapolis,
64 came from 50 towns in Indiana, 46 from 13 other States, and
1 from Cuba. Illinois led in providing 14 of these registrants, Ohio
8, Kentucky 7, and Missouri 6.
Another study we try to make is recommendability and another
is to identify and serve intelligently the unemployable.
Just what is our place in this service which we are establishing
nation-wide in behalf of our unemployed and employers? In the
words of our director, “ It is a service to our fellow men.” Some
of us see things from the point of view of the sociologist, others from
that of the economist, others from that of the psychologist. I f we
are serving a cross-section of our citizenship, then our point of view
must include some knowledge and understanding of all three of
these social sciences. Long since have our schools ceased to allow
children, and, yes, adults, to come to school when and as they choose
and to participate in whatever they may fancy in the course of study.
School attendance and a minimum standard of education are re
quired in order that in the United States and other countries we
may have less illiteracy and that every individual able to compete
may have a better opportunity for self-support.
Li medical science it has almost become ancient history that indi
viduals looked up their symptoms in the doctor’s book and went to
54
SE V E N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETING-----1. A. P. E. S.
the apothecary shop and asked for the pill or prescription they
thought would best meet their need. In the field of social science
the client or applicant is no longer sent away with only a basket of
groceries or an order of coal, food, and fuel for the present need*
compelling him to come again, in the same condition, when the sup
ply is exhausted. The social diagnosis is made and a treatment pre
scribed to make the applicant, if possible, self-supporting and an
independent citizen.
I f these other older services—the school, medical aid, and social
rehabilitation—have found it necessary on the “ knowledge of facts ”
to establish minimum standards according to which their various
units must wTork if affiliated with the groups leading in these various
fields of service and to work out a technique making accomplishment
of purpose and results possible, then how long are we, after assum
ing leadership in dealing with this great social problem of unem
ployment and maladjustment, going to be content with the lack
o f organized effort, conflicting statistics, and no recognized technique
for the most successful accomplishment of our endeavors?
In our schools the individual child, more and more, is receiving
individual attention better to understand him and better to serve
him. In the field of medicine a careful diagnosis is made in order
that a plan for the restoration of health may take into consideration
all other weaknesses as well as consideration of all physical assets.
In the field of social science adjustments are made after a careful
study of the strength and weakness of the human material with
which the social worker has to deal.
I f stability of character is still an asset in the building o f a suc
cessful career, if continued residence in a community where one may
establish himself and make for himself friends ana credit is still a
factor which makes for good citizenship, if perseverance and in
tegrity are still factors in the promotion o f individuals to positions
of responsibility and authority, and if there are those who are men
tally and physically so handicapped that an institution or hospital
can better serve them than an employment bureau, then we must
recognize these factors and their worth, and we must be able to ad
vise and prescribe, or refer for proper prescription, until we also
are recognizing individual needs and serving individual needs, as
are the leaders and experts in these older and better established
agencies which are serving their fellow men.
Is there any other approach to a more acceptable service in this
field o f endeavor than a better universal understanding of employ
ment and unemployment as it affects industry and the human mate
rial with which we are dealing, and better cooperation with all
other units of service dealing wTith this human material, with em
ployers in industry and the individuals seeking a place therein.
Not long ago I visited a neighboring city and most naturally,
with my interest in employment bureaus and their work, I sought
out the public employment service. It needed some seeking to find
it. Its registration in the telephone and the city directories was
not identical, so I was confused in getting it located. The informa
tion available for comparative analysis was nil, and the city was not
unlike our own in population and labor conditions. On inquiry from
whence their applicants came I was advised that social agencies and
IN TA N G IBLE VALUES IN E M P L O Y M E N T SERVICE
55
lodging houses frequently referred applicants to them. Later in the
day one o f these social agencies advised me that they thought this
employment agency had ceased functioning, and another did not
know o f its existence at all. The lodging house referred to advised
me that the location of this particular bureau was at an address
from which it had moved more than a year before. I wonder if in
the annual reports of all these social agencies and this local bureau
there is the assurance to their supporters that close cooperation of
effort and work prevails for the economic and social good of all
concerned.
Among my friends is a psychiatrist, who, I believe, has been
taught to see and understand human nature more clearly than the
most of us do, and who recognizes readily the influence which work
has upon our emotions and is aware of their effects:
He visited with me one morning a public employment service,
well located and functioning under very normal conditions. Among
other comments he spoke o f the discouragement which must come to
a new applicant for work in seeing such a group of other applicants
as is allowed to sit or loiter about some of our bureaus. The reaction
might also be resignation, seeing that he was only one of a large
group out o f work, and his effort to seek reemployment might
weaken. Who is making a study of the psychological effect of these
roomfuls of waiting registrants? Does it breed discouragement or
resignation or perhaps industrial unrest ?
Who has made a study o f those who have been successfully served
by a bureau and o f the same number not successfully served, to see
wherein the bureau or registrant has failed to do its or his part?
Do our clients respect our bureaus? Do our bureaus respect the
personalities o f our clients?
A ll these and more came to the mind of this psychiatrist. Per
haps it might help us all if we would bring into our offices and
plans some o f these other social workers and social thinkers and
get their reaction on our programs of work, what we are and are
not doing, and the hows and whys.
I recommend that all of us keep the paths well trodden between
our bureaus and all the welfare agencies, that we may know them
better and that they may know us; for no group by itself is going
to be able to meet the many needs presenting themselves to us in
this ever increasing group o f restless, disappointed, discouraged,
sick, crippled, and maladjusted humanity which is knocking at not
only our doors but at the doors of our welfare agencies.
With this closer acquaintance with the work of others who are
achieving success will come, I believe, the organization of more
citizens’ advisory boards for our employment agencies, to help
establish better support and better understanding o f our function
and work in our various communities.
Such a board is interested in why and how placements are and
are not made. They can come to understand and help interpret
our failures and our successes, even better than we who are so close
to the picture that we do not get the proper vision of our surround
ings. Our communities need more men and women with this more
intimate knowledge o f our problems and our work, and, we need,
them for our inspiration and advice,
§885?°—31-------- g
56
SEV E N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETING---- 1. A. P . E. S.
I quote a paragraph from the Committee of Education and Labor of
the United States Senate: “ Your committee wishes to voice the opin
ion that the unemployment problem can only be solved through con
stant struggle on the part of all members of society. When your com
mittee uses the word ‘ solved ’ it merely means that an opportunity
will have been given to everyone who really desires to work.” I think
this touches a keynote in mentioning “ all members o f society.”
This is spoken of as an industrial age; industry in the United
States especially is prospering these days; machines are replacing
men to be sure, but production increases and labor is still necessary
to industry and production. We need our industrial leaders on our
employment committee boards, and on the boards of our social
agencies and community funds, in order that they may see the whole
picture, those whom industry serves well and prospers and those also
whom industry no longer serves or can not serve, but for whom
industry in its prosperity has still a share of responsibility.
I have been a worker before and during the war and since, in a
volunteer capacity, with our American Red Cross, doing a good deal
o f disaster relief work in our various communities and home service
work in my own city. In such work there are certain standards
which must be recognized and maintained because the Red Cross is
•an auxiliary of the National Government.
In most instances the representatives here have affiliation with the
United States Department of Labor—a like governmental affiliation.
In two instances, at least, I have known the national representative
to come into a community and insist upon better physical surround
ings and conditions for the local bureau. Let us lean heavily upon
all such help, for the local units of our Government service should
be made by us as attractive and commanding the same respect as the
units in our beloved Capital.
A few days ago, President Hoover in a letter to one of our organi
zations 600,000 strong said, “ I am daily impressed with the great
need for extended work of education in the moral, physical, and
economic benefits of temperance. Too many people have come to
rely wholly upon the strong arm of law to enforce abstinence, for
getting that the cause of temperance has its strong foundations in
the conviction of the individual of the personal value to himself of
temperance in all things.”
One’s affiliation with a governmental program must not lessen
one’s concentration upon his local problems and the responsibility
o f his local unit for the tasks before it.
The moral, physical, and economic benefits of temperance or selfrestraint from seeking recognition of self and bureau in an unselfish
service to our clients will reward us many fold in personal values for
ourselves and our communities.
What are the values we are seeking ? I trust nothing more than
making a greater number of our fellow men and women more
comfortably and if possible more happily adjusted in their industrial
and home life. It can not be done in mass placement or mass
adjustment. We can help only individual by individual. They
come to us and their needs are better understood and met.
This will mean a better understanding of human nature, social
and economic resources in our own and in other communities, and
service rendered by understanding heads and sympathetic hearts.
VALUES
m
E M P L O Y M E N T SERVICE---- DISCUSSION
57
Perhaps the intangibles have become tangible as we bring them
to the forefront. Among them I have thought of our recognition
o f and responsibility to the challenge to serve an ever-increasing
group o f our younger folk who are apparently seeking residential
change and greater opportunity. In the intensive study o f un
employment which the National Organization of Settlements has
been making, a large number o f families who had moved from
smaller communities to urban communities “ wished they hadn’t
come ” after it was too late to reestablish themselves in the old home
town. What shall be our answer to this group ?
I had thought of our service and advice to those retarded and
competition with the brighter and
misfits whose
more fit is so
3 not blindly direct them into other
channels o f failure and discouragement.
I had thought of the sick and handicapped who do not need work,
but do need medical aid and vocational training; the ambitious who
want to work to provide some comforts or perhaps luxuries rather
than meet the full responsibility of home and children. Intangible
values perhaps, but very, very real to the lives with which we deal.
Some o f you have been on this job for several years as World
War days established public employment service permanently in
these United States, when service to our fellows was paramount in
the minds o f all o f us. Some of you have been conscious o f these
intangible values and your good works are known and recognized
in your community and at Washington. It is for a better universal
standard of service that I hope this conference, and even this paper,
may contribute in some small way.
DISCUSSION
Chairman M il e s . I am sure you will all join with me in com
mending Mr. Foster on the paper he has read to us this afternoon.
He has opened up a new field of thought. I will now turn the meet
ing over for discussion on the paper. Do any of the delegates wish
to answer any of the problems presented in this paper?
Mr. D o l l e n (New Y ork). Unfortunately I didn’t hear the first
part o f this paper, but I was interested in the numerous statistics
offered to us on different agencies. What I failed to grasp was what
has been done and what service has been rendered, or would you
suggest can be rendered, to the man over 50 ?
The next question I would like to ask is in reference to migratory
citizens who have called at the bureau, let us assume at Indianapolis,
with or without a trade or any actual training in a particular trade
or vocation. I find in my work that most of the migratory appli
cants are without trades, and being without trades they want whitecollar jobs, and we are confronted thereby with a serious problem,
especially with the man over 50.
I might say incidentally that in Rochester we open the office at 8
o’clock, and at 9 we call out all the positions. At half past 9, we
empty the rooms of skilled and unskilled, passing into the interview
ing rooms the men who answer the job called out or who want to be
interviewed and placed. A t 11 o’clock, we have them reassemble
58
SEVE N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETING---- 1. A. P . E. S.
and also at 1, 2, and 3 o’clock, perhaps. This prevents them from
congregating and discussing many things that would indicate to us
unrest, or, as the speaker of the afternoon says, perhaps the new
applicant becomes discouraged. But whether that is a proper method,
I do not know; that is something we have not arrived at yet.
Mr. F oster. In connection with the man over 50 years of age, I
did not mean, in stressing the point that so large a percentage of
our applicants are young people, that we do not face a very serious
problem in the placement of a man over 50 years of age. In this
day and age, 50 years of age in industry is almost a handicap, I
admit. And the choice is for younger people. You have to approach
that problem almost as Mr. Hudson this morning said he approached
the problem with the handicapped person. You have to get better
acquainted with that particular client than you do with a younger
client, find out some of his possibilities, and go out and seek a place
for him to try himself out. It takes more time and more attention
and better acquaintance to place a 50-year-old man, no doubt, than
it does a 25-year-old man.
About the service to the migratory group, it has become the policy
o f our organization to give precedence to the legal resident of our
own city, always talking to these boys and girls and young men and
women who are starting out early in life to seek fortune somewhere
else, telling them how necessary it is for them to establish themselves
somewhere where they are known, where they have already some
credit and some friends. And one of the intangible values of our
service, I believe, is that Mr. Gill and his staff have persuaded many
o f the younger people from our smaller communities in Indiana to
go back to their smaller communities, where they can live at home,
where, though the wage they can get may not be as good as they
thought they could get in a larger community, yet knowing that
their living conditions will be cheaper and better than they would
be in a larger community. I feel that we have rendered a real
service to a good many of these younger people in getting them to
see that they had better try to make a place for themselves in their
own community.
Employment bureaus have, I believe, a real challenge to try in
some way to check this ever-increasing number of young boys and
men who are giving up home ties and starting out somewhere, they
know not where, to try to make a fortune for themselves. I f there is
anything, as I said in my paper, to the fact that a man grows to be
of more worth in his own community the longer he stays there, and
that his credit and standing should be better, then we must try to
get it across to these younger people. They seem to have no concep
tion of what legal residence and credit and friends mean as an asset
to them.
Chairman M il e s . There is one problem M r . Foster touched on, the
psychological effect of a man coming into an office looking for work
and seeing 200 or 300 sitting around waiting for an opportunity to
be sent out. I have had to answer severe criticism directed to the
governor by delegations and by letters, and of course he called upon
me and wanted me to explain to him why these conditions existed.
When we ask the people to retire at 9.30 in the morning, the people
immediately say, “ You can’t get work for men, working three hours
VALUES IK E M P L O Y M E N T SERVICE— DISCUSSION
59
a day.” They wrote to the governor and said, “ They open the
office in the morning, close it at 9.30, open it for an hour at noon
and shut it up again. How are they going to get us work?” They
didn’t realize—possibly the governor didn’t realize—the organiza
tion that was going on after those people went out of the room—
checking over the cards, seeing who was registered and what they
could do, and then trying to call up some of the employers to make
a contact or to get rid of some of those people who had applied
that day. That was one of the things we had to decide, as to what
was best to be done, whether to allow them to stay in and impress
them we were trying to secure work, or to turn them out. In the
latter case the next fellow coming in, and finding very few people
there, might feel “ Possibly I ’ll get a job to-day.”
Mr. E d d y . I find—of course, most of my work is with common
labor and casual labor—I find our strongest point is the fact that we
can give immediate service to employers desiring casual labor, and
if you do not have the men there you can not give that service.
Chairman M il e s . I would like to have a few words from M r . Gill,
of Indianapolis.
Mr. G i l l . I would rather answer the questions Mr. Foster’s paper
brought out. I might state that since June, 1926, we have been
dividing work with the State-city bureau in Indianapolis and we
do not handle skilled, semiskilled, or unskilled men. We handle
women; the colored women, however, are handled by the Y . W.
and an agency for handling colored people. Really all we handle
is boy beginners, white women, and office work.
In answering the question as to the older person, the man over
50, I have a feeling that too much is being said about laying the
man over 40 years old on the shelf. I f you keep pointing your
finger at a man and saying, “ You are on tne shelf,” and somebody
else says the same thing, alter a while he begins to think it himself.
We have had some favorable experiences from inspiring some of
those older people, just as the handicapped folks are handled; that
is, telling a man what he can do rather than what he can not do.
I have seen some gray-haired men at work, probably because of
suggestions from our office. We oftentimes tell a man “ You apply
at this particular time, and say this, or see this person,” and we
feel that we are more successful in getting him placed than if
we called up the person and said, “ Here is a man 45 years old who
wants a job.”
A few weeks ago I was out at the plant of P. R. Mallory, recently
moved to Indianapolis, and I saw there some of the older people
who had been to our place before. I recalled a conversation with
one o f those men in which he stated he was becoming very much
discouraged because of the fact that everybody was saying, “ Your
gray hair is against you.” I think if more of us would forget
that a man is so old, and talk about and lay emphasis on the fact
of what he can do, and cause him to figure out in his own mind
a little selling talk, so that when he comes to approach the employer,
he says, “ I can do this, that, or the other thing,” it would be better
than to think about all his failures.
As to the other question asked, about the younger people, particu
larly the training, the fact that we have only the folks that I men*
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SEV E N TE E N T H A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A. P . E . S.
tioned makes you realize that some of these people that come to us
are rather alert and will take suggestions. Consequently, some of
them have promise of making good in various lines. In some in
stances we have been able to refer those young people to possible em
ployers. At other times, we point out how hard it is and how diffi
cult it is to get a foothold unless they have something definite in
mind. When the transient says, “ I am thinking about moving to
Indianapolis, and bringing my wife and children; I can’t get a job
in my home town, and I want to get some place where I can earn a
living,” we try to get such a man to be sure he has something definite
to come to before coming to our city. O f course, a great number of
our transients are summer people—people looking for summer jobs,
teachers, and high-school graduates just starting out. We realize
that there are some very desirable residents among these transients
and sometimes they should be encouraged.
I would be glad to answer any particular questions. I might say
one thing, we have been very fortunate in having a board that wants
facts as we find them. We have felt from the very beginning that
the person out of work was not our problem; he is a problem that
confronts the community, and why should we conceal the fact that
we are not able to place him? We have been very frank from the
beginning in telling our board of directors just what we were doing,
and very fortunately, we have not been bawled out for not placing
people. I know some of you probably fear that somebody might
bawl us out for not doing the job, but we try to work hard and then
report facts to our board as we have found them. A t the first meet
ing of our board, I wondered what would be the result when I told
them how few people were being placed. We had as chairman a per
sonnel man, Mr. Stanley Roth, and he confirmed my statements on
how difficult it was to place people. From the very beginning, the
board has been back of us, and it wants to know the facts; conse
quently, we have been very free in admitting how few placements
we have made.
Our board is made up from all lines of industry. We have a
minister, a manufacturer, a man very active in the Catholic Church,
and the Jewish federation is represented, as well as the Family Wel
fare Society, and other people about town, so that we get a good
cross section of Indianapolis.
Mr. S e ip l e (O hio). I just want to say that for several years we
have been trying to get representatives from Indiana in this asso
ciation meeting. Indiana is a neighbor State of Ohio and in between
other States that are doing other employment work. I am so pleased
that Mr. Gill and Mr. Foster came over here to-day and brought the
message of what they are trying to work out in Indianapolis, and
I think a little discussion on it would be in order.
I have been listening to the very theoretical paper Mr. Foster has
given us, and it is fine. The theory is there, and it is something to
shoot at. It isn’t something that can be accomplished in a few years,
but I am glad to hear some one set it forth for us. It is something
to carry back and say to the folks at home—that we still have a
vision ahead; that we are trying to get somewhere.
In regard to the releasing of applicants in order to prevent, you
might say, mental contamination of one another when they congre-
VALUES IN E M P L O Y M E N T SERVICE---- DISCUSSION
61
gate four or five hundred at one time in a room, this is a problem
to which the Cleveland office has given a lot of attention. I agree
with Mr. Foster in every respect except with regard to the casual
worker, and in this respect I agree with the gentleman from W il
liamsport ; that is, when it comes to the casual worker, a very neces
sary and valuable service is rendered both employer and applicant
if we are able to deliver like that [snap of finger] as many men as
the employer wants at any time. I feel it is a very good policy to
keep the applicants moving as rapidly as possible to avoid discour
aging them.
I was very much pleased to hear Mr. Gill say that he believes we
are giving perhaps a little too much attention to the age limit in
industry. Careful surveys in Cleveland recently indicate— what I
have been thinking for some time—that the age limit is not so
definitely defined as you might think. Employers have an age limit
of 45, 40, and sometimes even lower than that, but we find that when
one of them calls up and asks for a certain type of man and we can
tell him that a man is 2 or 3 or 5 or 6 years older, but he has had
this and that experience, and has worked for this and that firm, the
employer says, “ Send nim out,” and he is probably hired. The
employer forgets the age limit if he gets the right man. But it is
a fine argument for turning away a man who does not seem to fit.
In common labor in many industries there is a very definite age
limit, no question about that. For a man with a trade, however,
employers are not so discriminating, Mr. Gill, and I believe we are
probably lending a little bit of fuel to the fire and keeping it going—
making it a little harder than it would be—by too much agitation
about it. After all, it is an economic problem. In war time age
limits were abolished, and if these conditions should return, and
supply and demand turn about, age limits will again disappear.
Mr. J o n e s (Washington, D. C.). I have the pleasure of knowing
both Mr. Foster and Mr. Gill, and have had several conferences with
them in Indianapolis regarding this service. I want to indorse all
Mr. Foster has said in regard to the splendid work this foundation is
doing.
Mr. D a v ie (New Hampshire). I would like to ask the gentle
man down here—relative to the 45 and 50 year old men— did I
understand you right, when you said that was a problem we should
deal with as one upon which too much stress has been laid ?
Mr. G i l l . My contention was that too much is being said publicly
by so many people on that particular problem. A man who is 45
or 50 comes in and says, “ I read an article the other day, and my
sister-in-law told me this, and somebody else told me that,” and
the man is licked. I don’t know who is responsible for this; but
if you take a cross section of publications that have appeared in
the last six months, you will find a great deal of discussion about
this. I know if somebody keeps pointing his finger at me and say
ing, “ You are too old, you are not good enough ”—I am told con
tinually that I am too old to be any good—why, pretty soon, if
it comes from enough corners, I will begin to believe it. Conse
quently, my morale is lowered. My contention is, I don’t know who
is responsible for it, but if there was less said of a man’s negative
qualities and the fact played up that he has mature judgment and
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SEV E N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETIN G ---- 1. A. P . E . S.
experience and that sort o f thing, it would give his assets emphasis,
rather than his liabilities. Too many people are talking about his
liabilities and not enough about his assets.
I know Henry Ford has recently been writing something along
that line, but I haven’t examined the literature very carefully.
But I expect that if you weighed all of the literature you can find on
any magazine rack to-day you would find them more negative than
positive toward the person o f 40 and over.
Mr. D a v i e . I f labor-saving devices and improved methods of pro
duction displace men, and women too, around 45 and 50, and the
employment office, public or private, receives from the employer a
request for so many employees, and does not want any over, say,
45 or 50 years of age, I agree to that extent that we shouldn’t put
any stress on this very important problem that now confronts the
public in all parts of the country.
Mr. G i l l . I had in mind the morale of a man 45 years old who
reads that literature and hears all those things said to him. I know
it is a fact, and we have to face these truths, but if a man comes
in—take this gray-haired man that I referred to the other day—if
we had recalled all of the negative things we had heard about the
50-year-old man with gray hair, when we could have tried to show
him where he might fight and use his assets to advantage, we would
have done that man an injustice. I think we did more good for
him by saying, “ Here is a man over here that might use this experi
ence you have had. G o see this man, who is dealing with some folks
who know this problem you had to face.” Therefore encourage that
particular individual. No one here, I think, can stop that litera
ture, and it is a serious problem. It is a sales proposition. Sup
pose I have a wrist watch to sell and the thing doesn’t run half
o f the time, and all that sort of thing; if I play up its positive quali
ties, just like sales folks and business people do, I would have a
better chance to place that commodity than I would if I talked
about all its negative characteristics. That is an intangible thing, by
the way, but I do know from my own personal experience that if
enough people point their fingers at me and keep telling me nega
tive things about myself, in time I begin to believe them.
But the problem is there just the same, and what I meant was not
for the general public to quit talking so much about it but to throw
more energy into finding a man’s assets rather than his liabilities.
Chairman M il e s . The time has arrived for this discussion to
cease, and I can only pass this question on and say, Why don’t we
start with our own governments? I f you will look at both State
and Federal ciyil-service examinations you will find they have
started it ; there is many a position you can not take the examination
for if you have reached the age of 45.
We will just declare that this part of our session is over with.
Before we introduce the next speaker, is any gentlemen here in
formed as to Mr. Ford’s policy of the handicapped man? I read
some statistics the other day as to his age limits for employees, but
if any o f you could answer in one or two minutes as to his policy on
the handicapped, it would be interesting.
Mr. S e i p l e . May I say that the director of the Department of
Labor o f the State o f Michigan has wired he will be in to-morrow,
IM POR TAN CE OF U N E M P L O Y M E N T STATISTICS
63
and in case this question is not answered satisfactorily to-day, I
believe Mr. Eugene J. Brock, from Michigan, will be able to an
swer it.
Chairman M iles . Thank you for the suggestion. It now gives me
a great deal o f pleasure to call upon the next speaker, Dr. Joseph H.
Willits, from the University of Pennsylvania, who will address us
on the importance o f unemployment statistics.
Im portance o f U nem ploym ent Statistics
By
J oseph
H.
W
il l it s ,
of the University of Pennsylvania
I am going, if I may, to use my topic as a point of departure and
not as a geographic limitation. I understood, when I talked to
Mr. Coolbaugh, that I might have that privilege. That does not
mean that I am going to ignore the subject assigned to me. I think
the title might better be The Importance o f Adequate Research
Analysis of the Community Problem o f Unemployment.
I suppose the reason why I feel moved to make that interpreta
tion o f the subject is because o f the fact that I have been a member
o f a committee in this community for nearly a year which has been
going through the laborious pains of evolving a program for dealing
m a long-time way with the problem of unemployment in Philadel
phia—not from the standpoint of relief but rather from the stand
point o f reduction, if possible. That committee is a subcommittee
of a committee o f the chamber of commerce, which was promoted
first by Morris Leeds, president o f Leeds & Northrup and of the
Metal Manufacturers’ Association, and also by Henry brown, presi
dent o f Brown & Bailey in this city and chairman o f a group of
Quaker employers who in this city have been foremost, I think, in
endeavoring to lead employers to face and deal with social problems
of industry.
N ow2 there are certain things we have been saying for a long
time with regard to unemployment. I will merely mention in pass
ing just a few of those, because they are all entirely familiar to you
and only need a reference.
In the first place, I think we are conscious of the fact o f the very
great lacks in all the unemployment statistics available. I think we
need only refer to the various official estimates that have been made
regarding the amount o f unemployment from time to time. They
suggest a statement that was made to me about the unemployment
statistics of Europe. The statement was made that in Germany the
statistics are pretty good; in Scandinavia and England they are
pretty good; in France and Austria they are not so good; in the
countries to the east they are very poor; and in Italy the figures must
obey. Now, one has the feeling at times that perhaps some o f the
estimates that are put out are put out with that same type o f color
ing in the background. But entirely apart from the official esti
mates that are made, our information isn’t worth very much.
We have lots o f indicators of employment, but after all an indi
cator o f employment is only very inadequately an indication of
unemployment, because unless we have employee-hours, no measure
is given o f the amount o f irregularity o f employment—the time lost
from unemployment within employment. Moreover, indicators o f
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SEV E N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
employment in various industries give us no idea of the extent
to which people who have been laid off in particular industries
may have been taken up by the beauty parlors or the gasoline service
stations or various other occupations, so that the indicators of em
ployment, while useful for many purposes, are very inadequate in
furnishing us data concerning unemployment. And one has to
make similar reservation concerning the various censuses of unem
ployment made. We have such censuses, but when is a man unem
ployed?
Certainly, every man who has run a public-employment
office realizes what the problems are in undertaking to define just
when a person shall be counted as unemployed. Moreover, the
various statistics that are gathered in the censuses that are made are
apt to include a great many who do not constitute any pressing
social problem at all. After all, it is with those who constitute a
pressing social problem that we are really concerned, with the result
that we might go on, of course, to add to these examples without
end, and we have the kind of unemployment statistics and irregu
larity o f unemployment information that can be quoted by any
point o f view to prove that contention. I f you want to prove that
what we must have to solve the problem o f unemployment is a dash
o f old-fashioned individualism, you can probably do it. I f you
want to prove we have a great social problem and some law must
be pased at once, you probably can also prove that from the statis
tics. O f course, we are, in a way constantly getting better informa
tion. The United States Census will add materially and discrim
inatingly, I think, to our information. But neverthless we know
that what we do know is only very approximate.
Another thing: In spite of the inadequacy of the statistics, we do
have some idea of the amount o f unemployment. I suspect that the
best evidence we have is contained in the study recently made by
the National Bureau of Economic Research. Their study indicates
that in the eight years from 1920 to 1927, unemployment fluctuated
from a low o f 1,400,000 to a high of 4,270,000, with an average of
2.300.000. Put that on a per cent basis, and we have the fact that
it varied from a low of 4y2 per cent to a high o f 15 per cent, with
an average of about 7 per cent of the nonagricultural wage earners.
And that takes no account of irregularity of employment, which
might perhaps serve not to double, but nevertheless to greatly in
crease the amount of lost time.
To put it another way, again from the national bureau’s figures:
It estimates that the wage earners of the United States worked
10.000.000.000 less hours in 1921 than they did in 1920, and that their
annual earnings decreased a total of about $7,000,000,000. Call it,
if you want to be conservative, a loss of $5,000,000,000. This means
approximately a loss o f one-fourth the earnings and one-fifth of the
purchasing power of the wage-earning group. The relation of this
to American prosperity and American standard of living and there
fore to American business ought to be perfectly clear.
We know also that such a thing as this is exceedingly bad busi
ness for any community, for any country. We do not need Whiting
Williams to tell us that the man or woman who is unemployed tends
inevitably to become an enemy of society. We do not need President
IM PORTAN CE OF U N E M P L O Y M E N T STATISTICS
65
Hoover to make such a statement as: “ There is to my mind no eco
nomic failure so terrible in its import as that of a country possessing
a surplus of every necessity of life, with numbers willing and anx
ious to work, deprived of those necessities. It simply can not be if
our moral and economic system is to survive.”
That is an effective statement, but after all it is not very different
from what lots of people have been saying, and what you men and
women probably have been saying for a long time. Certainly, the
Gill system was, among other things, an attempt to eliminate some
o f the risks that went with economic activity. And ever since the
Gill system we have been engaged in some kind of an effort to
eliminate or minimize those risks of industry. Europe, of course,
has made her attack, with which we are entirely familiar, which
revolves around two things: An effective, adequate organization of
the labor market, and the setting up of some kind of State com
pulsory unemployment insurance, of which Germany’s perhaps is
the best example, where approximately 18,000,000 wage earners
are insured by the employers and the workers together paying in
3 per cent of the weekly wage bill to the Government.
I f we would deal with the realities of the situation rather than
with what we might like to have happen, must we not admit that
it will be a long time before we adopt those measures and work
them out in this country? No matter how ideal they are—and of
course they have much to commend them—we have a different social
philosophy, a different idealogic outlook. We do not turn so
readily to law; and I think it is not unfair to say that in some
respects, at least, our total situation may be more complicated
than it is in any single country of Europe. As a consequence of
these or other reasons we have done very little, and meanwhile the
evidence seems to indicate that the problem is increasing and not
decreasing. But we still agree always that something must be done,
and the question is, Where can we definitely and practically make
a beginning?
Now, I ask, has not a part of our failure been due to a desire
to take hold of too much of the problem at once? We have said
our economic system is national and international in character,
that the causes of irregularity and fluctuations are international or
nation-wide in character. We have properly looked at the European
model of treatment and have been accustomed to remedies that would
be State-wide in their operation. It may be true in Germany that
that method springs most naturally to the minds of the people. It
is not so true in the countries that have an Anglo-Saxon heritage.
So I say, that in spite of the fact that the causes are international,
and in spite o f the necessary limits to community action, which I
fully recognize in dealing with unemployment, it seems to me the
real opportunity for beginnings with regard to dealing with unem
ployment, lies within the community. And what we need more
than anything else is a first-class crop of beginnings. Even in
Germany, I believe it is true that the organization of public employ
ment bureaus began first as district affairs, and that in those districts
which started it earlier the system has continued to be more effec
tive and has exerted a considerable influence in the molding of
national policy with regard to unemployment.
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SEVE N TE E N T H A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
What can a community do? I have referred to the faet that
we have a committee which has been working here approximately
10 months. Now this committee has not officially reported. It is
therefore not my place to present its report; it would be premature
for me to do so. But out of the suggestions we have had, and out
of a conference of about 40 people who had been studying unemploy
ment nationally whom we brought to the university last spring m
order to criticize our proposals— out of their discussions, describing
the community programs of Baltimore, San Francisco, and vari
ous other places—many ideas have come, and I, speaking not
for our committee but only my own notions, will make a few very
general and tentative suggestions as to the things it seems to me
a community can do without waiting for some broad, national
program.
I would divide the suggestions I make into two main divisions:
(1) What the community can do; and (2) what studies it should
make.
Under the first of those headings, it seems to me that the
“ chiefest55 thing, if I may use that word, is to make a definite con
tribution to regularization of industry. That is the first problem.
It may sound like sophomore smartness for me to say it, but never
theless I think it is fair to say that the best and soundest and most
constructive solution to the problem of unemployment is continuity
o f employment. O f course, that is a statement we have been making
since we first began to consider problems of unemployment. But
I think that certainly it comes before insurance; that insurance is
a device which we can devote to that minimum of industries which
either can not be, or decline to make a serious attempt to be regular
ized. But the point is that regularization of industry has been
pretty abundantly proved to be good business as well as good
social policy. And the experiments of a great many industries have
established pretty clearly the fact that much more can be done to
regularize industry if the will to do it—and perhaps some advice
as to methods—is really present.
O f course this implies that you are going to have in an individual
community some collective assumption of responsibility by the in
dustries and business leaders of that community, in order to general
ize the results that have been demonstrated as possible in individual
industries.
I believe that there are in many communities a sufficient number
o f business people who are interested to make it possible for groups
of sufficient responsibility and authority to get behind such a com
munity program, and to work out some definite method of assuming
community responsibility for greater regularization. You can not
do that, of course, merely by the expression of pious hopes. Some
organization provision is necessap-y if the idea is to be carried to
the majority of firms, and if competent technical advice is to be
provided whereby it may be brought about. But what it involves
is the adoption by a community of the goal of a better total com
munity employment score, a more complete utilization of men and
equipment.
We have, all over the country, examples of communities adver
tising for industries to settle in their area in order that the quantity
o f industry and number o f wage earners may be increased. What I
IM PORTAN CE OP U N E M P L O Y M E N T STATISTICS
67
am suggesting (and I have no objection to offer to that kind of a
program) is that side by side with this it is possible to set a qualita
tive idea that shall look toward more complete utilization of the men
and equipment, of the wage earners and the equipment, which you
now have.
I frankly recognize that this is a very difficult thing to work out.
I hope we may work out something here. It may be possible, by get
ting the cooperation of the banks, the trade bodies and chambers of
commerce, to set up what I might call an institute of regularization,
whose task would be tw ofold: (1) The purely educational one 01
carrying the message that a lot of progress can be made toward
regularization—a lot more progress than we have made; and (2)
that of being available to furnish competent surveys and sugges
tions as to what way that may be sought. It is a management and
engineering problem, but I think it is a problem which is possible,
just as we can regularize, in many cases, single businesses. This is
merely the same idea carried to an entire community. It is a slow,
long job, but it is a job, it seems to me, that we should not pass up.
I need only mention two other things which a community can do.
The first would have to do, of course, with the development of a
public employment bureau. It would be highly presumptuous for
me to undertake to advise you men concerning the procedure to be
followed. It would be much worse than carrying coals to New
castle. I may say this, however. Knowing nothing, or next to noth
ing, about your problem, I have often heard at gatherings o f public
employment officers the emphasis so exclusively placed on the im
portance o f a nation-wide system that I felt sometimes there was an
understressing and perhaps even a loss of appreciation of the oppor
tunity that was even community-wide. O f course we should have a
nation-wide interconnecting system, but a lot can be done. locally,
and it is a slow task to centralize. I f the task of finding jobs and
the gradual centralization of that in one agency are left entirely to a
director and his staff, it would take a very long time to do it. But if,
after all, a committee representing various points of view is brought
to work and kept to work at the task of gradually extending the
influence, the scope, and the budget of the public employment bureau,
it seems to me a good deal can be done, even within the limits of one
community.
I need only refer, also, to a third thing; namely, the possibility
of a community assuming responsibility for that piece of the coun
try’s total prosperity reserve which it might properly assume. You
are all familiar with the idea, of course; it has been said over and
over again in discussions of what we are going to do about unem
ployment. Communities are apt to take the point o f view, “ Well,
what is the use? After all, most of the stimulus that is provided
by having public work done at a time when private employment is
slack is of little value because the public work requires different
kinds o f skill from private work, different kinds of muscular capac
ity, and the amount of work is very small anyhow. And the chief
impetus it has is outside o f the community, because the placing of
orders for materials has the effect of sending that effect outside.”
What if it does? It is a part of the community responsibility just
the same.
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SE V E N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETIN G— I. A. P . E. S.
Now, I turn from those three suggestions— obvious suggestions,
perhaps—of things that could be part of a community program to
a suggestion o f some of the things which it seemed to me need to be
done on the research side, on the side of analysis, if we are to make
adequate progress by means of communities.
The more anyone studies unemployment, the more I think we all
become impressed with the fact that there is no single remedy, and
the more we realize the need of years of study of the problem, even
in one community, if we are to get anywhere. I f it takes years to
regularize a single business, it must necessarily take much longer
to make progress towards regularization in a single community. But
I think in making some dent in the problem, if we leave out o f ac
count the part which single businesses are doing here and there, a
single community is about as large a bite at the task of regularization
as one can take at one time.
Well, if you are going to make some approach toward the problem
in the community, you need to know all the facts and elements and
effects and possible means of improvement that can be worked out
in that community. So I say, first, that if you have a university
or other research agency in your community, I would urge that you
establish relations with it, and see if you can not get it to help,
because the academic folks need contact with the real world and they
very often need suggestions of problems on which to be engaged.
Now what would you suggest, perhaps, for such a university or
such a community research organization to do? In the first place,
it seems to me important that such a research agency ought, over
a period of years, to undertake to get a picture of the total situation
with regard to unemployment and irregularity of employment in
each o f the major branches of business or industry in that community.
O f course, all of you realize that it is foolish to talk about the
problem of unemployment or irregularity of employment in the
docks, among dock workers, among department-store employees,
among radio workers, or building-trades workers, in the same terms.
The causes are as different as day from night, and it is foolish there
fore for us to generalize until we have an adequate picture of the
influences that are operating in each important branch o f industry.
So I would suggest that you put your research agency, whatever it
may be, to work building up that kind of a picture for you. It will
take years to do it. You may have Ph. D. theses enough to last
5 or 10 years and still have to go on. But that kind of information
is perhaps essential if particular remedies are to be devised and also
if an institute of regularization is to be developed. It constitutes a
part of the necessary material on which policies would be developed.
A second thing you can set such a community research agency to
work on is studies of the methods by which jobs are found by workers
in your community. You can do that by industries; you can include
studies o f the various private agencies and what they are doing, and,
o f course, even the public agencies. The building up of that kind of
a picture is not only valuable in extending the work of the public
employment agency, but is also one of the means by which commu
nity sentiment back of the extension of such an employment agency
may be developed.
IM POR TAN CE OF U N E M P L O Y M E N T STATISTICS
69
I recall the case of a man in Philadelphia in 1915, a man then em
ployed, whom I interviewed, who gave me a sample of a day’s hunt
for a job, which included calling at 10 places and going nearly 200
squares, not all of which were walked. Well, that kind of informa
tion is a part of the information you need, if a community conscious
ness o f the problem you people want to get over to the community
is really to be developed.
In the first place it is necessary for you also to make provision for
a census o f unemployment. We have to have a datum point or
points from which to work. In this city we found that the board of
education, once or twice a year, made a canvass or census of the
population of school age, with the result that close to 200,000 homes
were visited. It agreed, entirely on its own responsibility, to under
take the task o f making a census of the wage earners in 40,000
homes. That data are now available and being compiled.
Close to the matter o f censuses in supplying the information con
cerning unemployment is the development and regular publicity of
community indicators of employment and business activity. I f you
really have as part of your long-run goal the regularization of in
dustry, that, after all, has eventually to be done by the individual
management. And since a considerable part of your employing
managements in any one community are concerned chiefly with their
market, not only the labor market, but also a market for the sale of
goods, it is a part of the function o f your research agencies to de
velop and provide and make available monthly, in published form, a
statement o f the trends and indicators of business activity in that
community. I f you have any man who can develop, along with such
a set of censuses and employment indicators, an index of unemploy
ment which can be published with that, that is fine but it may be a
thing statistically impossible.
I could add many other things. Certainly it is possible for some
engineer at your university to make an analysis of the building
program of your community, the public work provided, and the em
ployment furnished by such public work over a period of years, in
order to find what part of this might be held back and released at
times when private employment is slack. Beyond this, there is a
whole series o f studies of effects of unemployment you could make.
O f course all the data which are available through charts requires
analysis. Someone has suggested the great desirability of selecting
a group o f 25 or 50 blocks and for a period of a year collecting infor
mation regularly from all the wage earners who are in those blocks,
by visits if necessary, in order that for a period of a year you might
have, through a representative cross-section of the wage earners of
your industrial community, a picture of the importance and per
haps some o f the effects of unemployment and irregularity of em
ployment. You would certainly have something much more exact
than anything we now have.
O f course I have merely touched upon, in a very superficial way,
a few o f the things that a community might do. But my feeling is
that our national program with regard to unemployment is not
likely to be one adopted for wide units at a time, but if we could
get 40 communities that were really developing a long-run pro
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gram—not a relief program in an emergency, but a long-run pro
gram— for improving their employment score and decreasing the
amount o f unemployment and irregularity of employment, very soon
we would have a national program for dealing with unemploy
ment.
I repeat that I suspect that you people, more than any others, are in
positions of community responsibility with regard to this problem.
There are lots of other folks in each of your communities who have
been saying for years, “ M y ! This is a very serious problem, a very
important problem. We must do something about it.” I f you
merely succeed in being the promoter in your community who will
bring those various individuals together you will at least have the
satisfaction of finding out whether they meant it, and perhaps make
some contribution to the development of the community and through
that the national program for dealing with unemployment.
D ISCUSSION
Chairman M iles . I will now throw the meeting open for discus
sion, and I would like to see someone who has not taken part in our
deliberations say a few words.
Mr. R eber (Pennsylvania). The speaker stated in regard to pub
lic work that there should be a committee formed in each community
to look after that and to throw that work on the market during the
dull periods. Two years ago, when things were rather dull in the
State, the governor and the Federal Government asked the city and
county authorities if they had any public work, stating that that
was a good time to start it. The city of Allentown was going to
build a sewerage system and there was a lot of unemployment in
Allentown, but under the laws of the State it had to advertise to get
bids. The lowest bids for the two contracts were by an Altoona
contractor and a Sunbury contractor. Under the law they had to
take these contracts. The result was that when the job was started
the Altoona man brought Altoona people into Allentown and the
Sunbury man brought his own workers into Allentown, and the
Allentown workers were still out of work.
Doctor W illits . O f course, that states admirably the limits to
single community action. May I point out this fact, however, that
the total amount of unemployment was decreased ?
Mr. B oyd (Illinois). I have listened to Doctor W illits’s talk, and
am very much interested in it. To show that there is a live interest
taken in this question, and that the Economic Research Association
is now studying figures as Doctor Willits has said and other uni
versities are doing it, I have a telegram I received this morning that
I would like to read. Mr. McMillan, of the University of Chicago,
is making a study along this same line of employment and unem
ployment and social statistics, and he is doing a splendid job. Not
long ago he gave a talk on the importance of it and what he has
accomplished during the year. His telegram reads as follow s:
I am very glad to hear that you are again taking up the work with other
employment bureau executives on the question of uniform statistics in your
field. We are convinced from nearly two years' experience in receiving reports
from employment offices that figures can be collected and that they can be
U N E M P L O Y M E N T STATISTICS— DISCUSSION
71
made of real significance, even though the total volume of employment can
not be measured since we have no system of compulsory registration of the
unemployed. Nevertheless, the rate of change from time to time in the number
of applications, help wanted, and placements, may be an important index to
economic conditions. We believe that a separation between the statistics of
placement of casual workers and other persons will make these figures more
significant.
Mr. S iler . I would like to ask one question. Would you consider
a man physically unfit in the unemployed class? You said possibly
unemployment could better be determined on an hourly basis. Is it
your thought to strike an average among the different groups, say,
the mill hands, the ones who work, say, 10 hours a day, or the
machinists who work 10, and the building trades who work 8, and
strike a daily hourly average from that, and then take the various
classified workers who work regularly and some seasonally, and
take a yearly hourly average from them, and then compile it on that
basis ?
Doctor W illits . Let me be sure I got the first part of your ques
tion. I made the statement that I thought the important thing to
have reported by the various industries in a community was employee-hours worked. I think that was the statement I made; I do
not know that I said we would determine the amount of unemploy
ment by the report of employee-hours worked. I meant that the
information reported at present to a very large degree covers the
numbers on the pay roll. O f course you appreciate the inadequacy
of that; it is obvious, because people may be working one day a
week, or they may be working two days a week, and yet they appear
as employed people, and the only thing that the employment indi
cator or employment information and statistical data reveal is the
number actually separated from jobs. My statement was that if
we have something that indicates fluctuations in the total amount
o f time worked, while, of course, as your question implies, some
assumptions would have to be made in view of the fact that the
working-day varies in different occupations and different industries,
and it therefore would be, as all statistics are, somewhat inaccu
rate, nevertheless it would be closer to the measure of the total
volume o f employment furnished than would be a mere report of
the numbers on the rolls.
Mr. G il l . I would like to ask Doctor Willits if the details have
been worked out for the compiling of the information on this 1930
census, and if so, can he express himself as to how satisfactory the
answers to those questions are going to be in getting information?
Doctor W illits . I will answer your question as definitely as I
can. That matter is still subject to discussion between the Bureau of
the Census and the advisory committee. There have been a num
ber o f meetings. A t the last meeting there was not yet, shall I say
agreement, concerning the information to be included. I can not
therefore state to what extent it will furnish definite information;
that would be rather premature.
One o f the things one regrets very much about that census is that
it is probable, in view of the other things which the Bureau of the
Census has to do, that the results of this census, which will be made
38852°—31------6
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presumably around next April, will not be available for three years
thereafter.
Chairman M iles . I might state that we in Ohio are particularly
fortunate. We have the bureau of business research at Ohio State
University, which gets reports from the employers. We have other
reports coming in from our employment offices. We also have re
ports from all employers of labor who contribute to the State insur
ance fund in Ohio. We tabulate about 39,000 schedules from the
employers. In comparing later with former years, we find that our
line 01 wage earners is rapidly decreasing. Our number of employees
is about the same, and our pay roll is very little different. We
divide that schedule into three classes, wage earners, bookkeepers,
stenographers and office clerks, and sales people. Now, then, prov
ing that the evolution of machinery is throwing men out of work,
the wage-earning group is coming down. The salesmanship and the
bookkeeping groups are going up. So while we have the same rela
tive number of people working in the State, we have a difference in
occupations. It takes more people to sell a greater amount of
goods; machinery is now producing more goods with fewer wage
earners.
One o f the striking things is that we are getting to be a Nation
that likes service. For the first time in history in our country in
the top row in amount of pay roll is what we call our service group.
Formerly it was iron and steel and wholesale and retail establish
ments. But our service group now has the highest pay roll in
Franklin County, showing that we like service and are paying for
it. That is one o f the most interesting things.
The printing group almost doubled in the amount of pay roll,
while iron and steel decreased. It was a very interesting analysis
o f what is taking place in a great group. The total pay roll shows
almost $2,000,000,000, with almost 1,600,000 employees, so these are
representative figures o f which I am speaking.
Mr. R e b e r . Doctor Willits, do you think the statement o f Mr.
Babson in Boston is correct, that through labor-saving machinery
1,000,000 people are thrown out o f employment yearly, and that each
year there is thrown on the market 1,000,000 new workers—that is,
young people coming of age and people coming into this country—
and that only half a million people die or quit their jobs during the
year, which would mean a yearly surplus which the public employ
ment offices and others would have to take care of?
Doctor W illits . I don’t know whether or not I want to testify
on all o f Mr. Babson’s statements. I certainly would not want to
testify as to whether or not those figures are true. I do not carry
figures around in the back o f my head, so I can not say. I would
want to check them. That is an unsatisfactory answer, but that is
all I can give you.
Chairman M iles . I wish to thank Mr. Foster, also Mr. Gill, and
Doctor Willits for their presence here and for their papers.
[Vice President Hudson here took the chair.]
[Mr. Boyd asked the privilege o f adding the name of Miss
Murphy, of Baltimore, and Miss Peterson, of Washington, to the
committee on uniform forms, records, and procedure.]
[Meeting adjourned.]
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 25, 1929— EVENING SESSION
Chairman, J. F. Mitchell, Superintendent of Employment, Pittsburgh, Pa.
Chairman M itch ell . It has been my privilege for some time to
have been associated in our work with Mrs. Morgart. She is assistant
superintendent o f the Pittsburgh office, in charge of the women’s
work. During the year that we have been associated together it has
been a great pleasure to me and a great deal of personal satisfaction
to have in our office a lady of her ideals and outstanding character
istics which qualify her so eminently for that work. It is with great
pleasure that I present to this convention Mrs. Morgart.
A W om an ’s View point as to the Value o f E m ploym ent
Service
By Mrs. L. C.
M
orgart,
Assistant Superintendent of Employment, Pittsburgh, Pa.
Before starting upon my subject I should like to digress to the
days immediately after the war. I was drafted by the United States
Government into war-camp community service. My position was
director of community activities of the city o f Norfolk. It touched
upon the activities or every organization pertaining to the man in
uniform, no matter in what branch of the Government that man
might be serving. I was honorably discharged from that service on
the 30th day of November, 1919. Later on Governor Fisher, of the
State o f Pennsylvania, appointed me as assistant superintendent of
the bureau o f employment in the city of Pittsburgh. The work of
an employment bureau does not seem, perhaps, to the ordinary indi
vidual to have any connection with war work. It has not, except
at times.
Our office has four departments—when I say our office, I mean the
women’s division. We have the skilled clerical department—private
secretaries, technicians, dietitians, and chemical engineers. The
clerical department deals with the ordinary type of girl who is a
clerk because she can not be anything else. When they do not know
what else to describe themselves as, people say they are clerks. We
have the white domestic-service department and the colored domesticservice department.
The work o f the women’s division is, of course, just what it is in
almost every other employment office. We have a little different
problem because it is a melting pot of the world. We have a differ
ent class of people, a different type of people, and we have perhaps
more migratory people, but we have in that office 100 per cent
cooperation.
Our department o f public welfare appropriated from its funds a
sum o f money to support and provide for a bureau o f the handi
capped. A little while ago, girls who had graduated from these
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“ business colleges ” would come into our office—girls with defective
vision or impaired hearing (some with training as private secretaries
or stenographers) and one in particular with only one hand. I did
not want to be in the employment bureau at all when I interviewed
those people; I just wanted to get out and talk to those business
schools that took those girls’ money. There was no possible chance
o f sending a girl with one arm into the office of a man who was
running a business for money, no matter how philanthropic he
might be. The American Red Cross and our other charitable organ
izations are certainly philanthropic, but even they can not employ
inefficient people. That little girl came into the office time and again.
Girls with twisted bodies came in—some o f them on crutches— and
asked irie to give them a job as private secretary. They had been
promised that when they graduated from the school.
The bureau o f the handicapped was established. We have gone
very slowly in Pittsburgh because we wanted to be sure of the peo
ple chosen to man that organization. Mr. Sebold is an ex-service
man. He is the superintendent of the bureau o f the handicapped of
the city of Pittsburgh. He chose Miss Lagnowski of the women’s
department as a case worker and his assistant. When these crippled
people and these defective people come into our office we smile and
say, “ Yes; come in, fill out an application and we will have a posi
tion for you very shortly.” Now I will have to tell you something
about Mr. Sebold and the bureau of the handicapped of the city of
Pittsburgh, and the city of Pittsburgh itself. These “ soulless cor
porations ” and these “ hard-boiled ” business men are the people
who are taking our handicapped people into their offices.
The only requirement that the bureau of the handicapped o f the
city o f Pittsburgh makes is that the applicant must have been a
resident of the city of Pittsburgh for one year. The bureau of the
handicapped takes these people we send to them and gives them the
best medical treatment that can be given. Sometimes the cause of
their handicap is only a defective nerve or a nerve pressing upon
some organ. They are sent to the hospital for the doctor to diagnose
the trouble, and perhaps in a week they are returned to the bureau
o f employment; they are handicapped no longer. Then we are able
to place them because they are not defectives.
We also have the juvenile court cases and the girls from the deten
tion homes, and in addition the desertions court cases. A ll of those
people come to us, and in every way we cooperate with the social
agencies of the city of Pittsburgh and its surrounding area.
I would like to say this, that the creed of the office of the city of
Pittsburgh bureau o f employment is this: “ Let no temptation come
upon me beyond my strength to-day; deliver me from the vice of
fault finding and from the sin o f insincerity. Let my aims be high;
make me ever thoughtful of others; give me a merry heart and a
cheerful countenance; and let me never forget to be kind.”
Chairman M itch ell . During the more than 11 years that I have
been affiliated with the public employment service in Pittsburgh the
Commonwealth o f Pennsylvania has been especially fortunate in
having at the head of the department of labor and industry and
the bureau of employment earnest, capable, serious-minded men. It
is a privilege to introduce to you to-night a former secretary of the
SERVICE A DIRECT RESPONSIBILITY OF GOVERNM EN T
75
department of labor and industry and the present auditor general
o f this great Commonwealth, but it is also a great pleasure and
privilege to present him to you as a great public servant and a great
friend of public employment work—the Hon. Charles A. Waters.
Is the P ublic E m ploym ent Service a Direct
Responsibility o f Governm ent?
B y Ch arles
A.
W
a te rs,
Former Secretary Department of Labor and Industry
of Pennsylvania
Some time after I was asked whether I would take a part in the
program the topic was sent to me. I read it over several times and
thought that probably there was a mistake, as the subject reads:
“ Is the public employment service a direct responsibility of govern
ment ? ” I thought that probably that was a polite way of telling
me to be brief, as there is very little could be said on that subject.
Then I thought that probably it should read, “ Should the public
employment service be a direct responsibility of government? ” and
I was going to prepare a paper on this subject because it is strictly
a legal and highly technical one, involving various constitutional
questions, so I thought I would say nothing about the subject as
signed to me and take just a few minutes to talk all around the sub
ject instead o f directly on it.
I believe there is one phase in connection with it we might discuss
with profit for a few minutes this evening. First of all, I believe
the courts throughout the country have clearly intimated in their
several decisions that a public employment service, where needed,
is a direct responsibility of the Government. In Pennsylvania we
have recognized this responsibility—not only the responsibility of
finding a job for the wage earners, but also, after we find the job
for him, to see that he has a reasonably safe and sanitary place in
which to perform his duties, and then to see that he is surrounded
by all the safeguards known to modem science. Should he become
injured, the State assumes the responsibility of seeing to it that he
is compensated during the time he is unable to follow his employ
ment. And should he be maimed in such a way that he can not
continue his trade, we take him, so maimed and disabled, and
through our bureau of rehabilitation in the department o f labor and
industry, we rebuild him for some new vocation in life. And so,
throughout his entire contact with his fellow man, we in Pennsyl
vania zealously guard the interests of the wage earner, and this in
cludes his quest for a job. So we have established, as you have in
other States where industry is found to a considerable extent, public
employment offices throughout the Commonwealth, where annually
thousands of persons are placed in permanent employment through
this remarkable service rendered free of charge to the wage earner.
The public employment service is a direct responsibility of Govern
ment ; it is not a theory, it is a fact, because the Government, whether
rightly or otherwise,* has assumed this responsibility. I am sure
that you do not want to listen to any long-drawn-out technical
discussion as to whether or not the State has the constitutional right
to assume such an important responsibility.
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There is, however, in connection with this, one phase of the sub
ject which, as I stated previously, I believe is important, and this
is, how far should a State go in legislating for a particular subject
where the legislation may become meddlesome so far as private enter
prise is concerned? This subject, to my mind, is a most important
one. W e seem to have developed, not only in Pennsylvania, but
elsewhere throughout the country, a craze or a passion for passing
laws. Our legislature meets, and the men are hardly at their desks
before there are more bills presented to them for their careful
consideration over a period of probably three months than could
be intelligently considered in six months. Evils appear to be de
veloping faster than remedies can be found, with the result that
with every meeting of our legislature the regular flood o f bills
appears. Where they affect a particular department, such as that
o f the department of labor and industry, they are sent to the head
o f the department, and immediately that official is charged with
the responsibility of discussing these various pieces of legislation or
proposed legislation with the manjr interests and groups and asso
ciations and individuals interested in the passage of this particular
legislation. We all have our experience of this kind at Harrisburg.
I had one in which the question of employment and the regulation
o f private employment agencies was discussed during the last ses
sion o f the legislature. I do not believe, let me say now, that any
public official is sitting up at nights looking for new responsibilities
that he can gather unto himself. Still, I do believe that where a
public official is given some semblance of control over the conduct
o f some one else, he wants to be fortified with proper authority to
see to it that a particular piece of legislation governing the conduct
o f another is enforced, and, if he is to be held responsible, that he
has the proper machinery to enforce it.
We had an act on our statute books with reference to the regular
tion o f private employment agencies. It was old. Some features
o f it had been attacked and found to be unconstitutional—not in
this State, but elsewhere, and by the Supreme Court of the United
States—and it was felt that the time had arrived when this par
ticular piece of legislation should be revamped and brought up to
date. Just about that time there was a very unfortunate occur
rence in the city of Philadelphia where a man had been sent to a
job. I am not sure of the tacts, but some of you may be more
familiar with them than I am, but the man was sent to a pQsition
in Atlantic City. When he arrived he didn’t suit the man seeking
an employee, and he came back and without a word of warning shot
the manager, owner, or proprietor of the private employment agency
that sent him on this job. This particular man—that is, the man
operating the agency—so far as we knew, had a very clean record.
The situation was very unfortunate; the man was probably desperate
in his search for employment, temperamentally unsound at the
moment, and probably saw some injustice done to him, with the
result that the life of the agency man was snuffed out without a
moment’s warning.
The press of Philadelphia gave quite a lot of publicity to it,
and editorials appeared in some of the Philadelphia papers. I f
the men who wrote the editorials had not owned the papers, I do not
SERVICE A DIRECT RESPO N SIBILITY OF G O VERN M EN T
77
believe they could ever have sold them, because it was clear that
those who wrote them did not know what they were talking about.
The State was called upon to do this and that, and asked why it
did not do the other thing, when there was no duty nor responsibil
ity upon the State to do any o f the things asked in the several news
paper stories. However, it had the result in Harrisburg of having
us consider exactly what we were up against in this situation, how
far our duties extended, where our responsibilities began, and where
they ended.
Shortly after this, the revamping of this particular piece of legis
lation was taken up. and a most industrious—I won’t say lobby, but
interested group ox spectators appeared, quite a lot of literature
was distributed and sent to me and to the various members of the
legislature, manufacturers were written to, and propaganda was
spread around pretty generally, with the result that quite a lot of
attention was directed to this particular piece of legislation; and
every bit o f criticism, so far as I could see, was that this legislation
was insidious, it was crafty, it had many diabolical schemes to
eliminate private employment agencies, and there wasn’t one-half of
1 per cent merit in the entire piece o f legislation.
Now this was a most unfair way to come to the legislature or to
a public official, to debate with him a piece of legislation which if
passed would affect particularly a certain class of private enter
prise. When the legislation was analyzed before the committees
m Harrisburg it was pointed out that in effect it was the same
piece o f legislation that had been on our books for approximately
20 years; that it was universally admitted that it was a proper
function of the Government, and were it not for this legislation
all kinds o f injustices could and would be done to the man seeking
employment, because injustices were done despite the fact that we
had this legislation. We were continually being called upon to
prosecute here, there, and elsewhere all over the Commonwealth.
Now, I say that when those interested in the passage o f legisla
tion which might become meddlesome to private enterprise come to
a State capitol with such a program mapped out, they are directly
responsible for a piece of legislation that may be oppressive, be
cause the man in public office, or the man charged with the respon
sibility in a particular line o f endeavor will see to it that the
legislation is passed the way he wants it, so far as his influence
is concerned in a particular legislature. How much better would
it have been in this case had these people, who rightly should have
been heard when a piece of legislation o f this kind is being con
sidered had come in and said, “ Yes, we believe this particular bill,
or this proposed bill, is 75 per cent meritorious, but there are other
things in there that go too far.” The pendulum of human endeavor
in this particular line, since the foundation of civil society, swings
first to one side and then to the other. Sometimes the efforts of
the legislature are too oppressive, at other times entirely too leni
ent, for the well-being o f the Commonwealth. In such a case, if
the man directly interested, so far as the State is concerned, in this
kind o f legislation is dealt with fairly, the meritorious features of
the bill approved by those interested, and those few features that
they object to discussed in a sane, intelligent manner, then we get
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the kind o f legislation that can be administered, and administered
with very gratifying and good results, not only to the Common
wealth and those in public office, but particularly to those affected
by the administration of such kind of legislation.
Hence, I say that when we approach consideration of the respon
sibility o f a State or the National Goverment with reference to the
interest o f a wage earner, we approach the consideration o f a very
vital question, so far as the government of any State is concerned.
When a Commonwealth steps in in a regulatory capacity over any
industry, any kind of private enterprise, she must be very careful
o f the course she pursues. Great damage, rather than good, can
result from unwise, improvident legislation upon such subjects.
However, if those affected by the legislation— and this includes
officials, members of the legislature, and the people generally, who
will be affected by the passage of the legislation—if all these
groups will sit down in a sane and sober manner, agree upon what is
meritorious in a particular %piece of legislation, and compromise
upon the various features which contain no merit, or which appear
to be the grasping by a public official for more power than be can
properly handle and handle for his own good, then I say that we
will get somewhere in the regulation of all the elements entering
into the life o f a wage earner, so far as his contact wTith society
generally is concerned.
This is the only point in connection with the subject which I was
listed for this evening that I feel you would be interested in, and
in closing I want to congratulate those in charge of this conven
tion. I understand that many States are represented here, also
many Provinces o f Canada, and I believe that from such a con
vention as this you can go back to your respective States and
Provinces with a better understanding, not only of your particular
problems, but o f the problem presented by those who will be
affected by the administration o f your particular duties.
We in Pennsylvania are very much interested in this subject;
our public-employment service is here and here to stay, and I am
sure that those now connected with the department o f labor and
industry, after their week spent in attendance at the various ses
sions o f this convention, will be in a position to render even better
service along this most important line of endeavor so far as the
Commonwealth of Pennsylvania or any other State in the Nation
is concerned.
[Meeting adjourned.]
THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 1929— MORNING SESSION
Chftfrman, Emanuel Koveleski, Examiner United States Employment Service, Rochester, N. T.
[Vice President Hudson announced the membership of the com
mittee on ways and means as follow s:]
Committee on ways and means.—Harry Lippart, chairman; B. 0. Seiple,
Miss Lillian E. Tapen, George Gill, and D. E. Thompson.
Chairman K oveleski. It affords me great pleasure at this time to
introduce to you the first speaker of the morning, Miss L. O. R.
Kennedy, superintendent of the women’s division of the Employ
ment Service o f Toronto, Canada, who will now address us on the
subject of Employment Opportunities for Women in the Province
o f Ontario.
E m ploym ent Opportunities fo r W om en in the
P rovince o f Ontario
By Miss L. O. R.
Superintendent Women’s Division, Employment
Service of Canada, Toronto, Ontario
K ennedy,
In the time at my disposal, I shall endeavor to give you some
idea o f what the employment opportunities are for women in the
Province o f Ontario.
I realize the magnitude of my subject, so trust that in a small
way I may be able to make you visualize what a land of promise
our fair Province is where women are concerned. We have reached
an era where it is a recognized fact that the avenues of occupation
for women are limitless, and there is no doubt about their ability
to compete with men in the economic world. However, it is the
policy of some of our young women to choose a career where there
is no competition with men, for it tends to quicker and easier success.
Our young women, whether they need to or not, have and are train
ing themselves to be economically independent.
The clerical opportunities with a future may be classed as follow s:
Stenography, advertising, reporting, interior decorating, chemistry,
real estate, and insurance. Woman’s first entry into business is at
present pretty well confined to the opening offered by stenography.
Perhaps the greatest dilemma which faces any stenographer is
whether she shall try for a minor position in a big concern or an
important position in a small concern. The minor position offers
good training and keen competition, while the important position
offers responsibility and an opportunity to show her resourcefulness.
The girl who decides on the minor position in a big concern can,
after she has been there for a time, choose some particular phase o f
the work which interests her, study it, work at it, and show that
she honestly wants to achieve something in that line. Here lies her
entry to executive work. There is positively no need for any girl
o f worth to stay in routine work; the efficient ones, are too valuable
79
80
SEV E N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
to spend in work that can be done by anyone. I would recommend
to no girl to work in a firm whose business does not interest her.
In a very few years there will be attractive opportunities in adver
tising as compared with those of to-day. It may be said that our
day is just dawning in this field. Statistics show that the woman
consumer buys 90 per cent or more of all goods in general use; hence
advertising, to be effective, must have the woman viewpoint or
w oman appeal. Advertising agencies are numerous, and those special
izing in advertising of food products employ women. It is gener
ally believed that a trained woman is better suited to such work than
any man is likely to be.
Shortly there is going to be an increasing demand for trained
women in the advertising branch of the department stores. This,
in itself, is a big field. We find many women in subordinate posi
tions in the advertising departments, but only here and there do
we as yet find a department store with a woman advertising manager.
As time goes on, there will be more women establishing their own
advertising agencies. They will specialize in the lines in which
they are most familiar and for which they have the greatest liking.
Up to now the contracts they have taken on are for the promotion
o f articles used in the home or used by women almost exclusively.
We occupy the field with men. It is generally conceded by those
in authority that the most effective advertising copy is written
when the man and the woman collaborate on it. It is true the man’s
copy has more force, while the woman’s copy provides the minute
details and the feminine psychology which puts the advertisement
over. Banks and financial corporations are beginning to employ
women along this line also.
We ask ourselves why women are making such a success of report
ing and why they are being employed by our newspapers to such
an extent. Shall I tell you? Just because in this field, as in adver
tising, they picture and feature women’s functions more cleverly.
Imagine a male reporter at a big ball, satisfying his female readers
the next morning with his account of what they wore and how they
looked. I tell you, gentlemen, he just can not do it.
Interior decorating is a growing opportunity for young women,
with excellent possibilities. It is very convenient for the housewife
to telephone to a nearby department store for valuable advice at any
time, especially when there is someone in authority there who is
capable of giving helpful suggestions on color schemes, proper
hangings^ etc.
Any high-school graduate who had been interested in chemistry
during her school term might do well to investigate what the open
ings are for laboratory technicians, since this is an age of specializ
ing by the medical doctors. Many of our doctors are employing
and looking for these technicians. However, those with any ex
perience are very scarce. While in Chicago this summer I dis
covered one who had resigned her position. And where is she now ?
With the dentistry faculty of the University o f Toronto.
Owing to the growing demand of the medical profession, the
University of Toronto is opening a course in physiotherapy this
autumn, and undoubtedly this will appeal to the young women of
Ontario.
E M P L O Y M E N T OPPORTUNITIES FOR W O M EN
81
Insurance is truly a vocation that is attracting many of our adult
young women, and one which they find very remunerative. In
order to make a success in this line, you must be an impressive talker
and have a pleasing personality. It you possess these qualities, and
apply to any large insurance company, you are almost sure of being
taken on the staff.
Real estate, like insurance, is something at which you have to work
very hard in order to make a success of it; yet it can be classed as
an employment opportunity with a future.
Going back to insurance, I might say that it is one branch of
employment where the remuneration is the same to both men and
women, and their advancement depends on their ability to secure
business for the company.
The opportunities in industry worthy of mention are for buyers,
stylists, designers, and salesladies. The buyer, stylist, or designer
may be a university graduate or she may have originally been
a saleslady or an operator. It is often when we are occupied in
the ordinary routine work that we conceive the idea of being able
to do more advanced work, something with a more worth-while
future. The demands of our modern women for last-minute wear
ing apparel have created the openings for these people. The buyer
who is able to select the articles that attract the woman purchaser
the minute she enters the store is invaluable to her department and
success awaits her. About 60 per cent of the customers in most
stores are women. Therefore, there are greater chances for women
to progress in buying than in any other line of store work.
The buyer who proves her worth will be sought for the position
of assistant merchandise manager and, still higher, of merchandise
manager. A department store is a little world in itself with an
astonishing variety of types of employment. In an average store
o f 3,000 employees there are approximately 300 different kinds of
positions. In a store employing the number mentioned there would
only be about 1,000 sales people.
Ih e stylist is a comparatively new and very fascinating opening
for women. The stylist keeps posted with fashion demands, 'helps
in the display of same, and gives advice to the customers.
In the city of Toronto we have what is known as the pioneer
flower woman. This woman has established the industry of making
flowers and frequently calls on our office for juveniles to train in
the work. We have another woman in the suburbs of Toronto who
after the death o f her husband had to do something, so invested her
capital in a small acreage, starting to raise first-class flowers and
shrubbery. This was an entirely new venture for a woman, and I
am glad to state that her efforts have been crowned with success.
To-day, she has seven women in her employ. Undoubtedly others,
hearing o f what she has accomplished, will be encouraged to take
up this work.
The business woman of 40 years and over who has been thrown
out of employment and is finding difficulty in trying to get herself
reinstated usually investigates the opportunities in the domestic line,
for she knows it is an opportunity that is always open, when every*
thing else fails. This woman will ask for a hostess’s or housekeep
er’s position in a club, hotel, or camp. The superior dignified woman
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SEVE N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETIN G — I. A. P . E. S.
who is socially inclined, and who has the faculty of meeting the
public well, is very successful as a social hostess.
In our Province and the rest of the Dominion of Canada we
have selective immigration from the British Isles. These immi
grants are brought out to act as household employees. During this
year we have had an average of six new arrivals a day in our
office alone. They were quickly placed in housework and at the
present time we could readily absorb a thousand others in the
Province.
And I might mention here that 700 or more o f those vacancies
exist right in my own office in Toronto. Just yesterday I received
a letter from our office, an extract of which I shall read to you:
“ You will be interested to know that Monday morning the office
was the scene of great activity, when 65 new arrivals all flocked
in at once. The assistants were only prepared for 40, but, Miss Ken
nedy, your staff worked wonderfully well, and the placements were
exceptionally good.” She refers to her office and my own as being
full o f employers. You see, when these immigrants come, they
have no sense of direction or location, and we find it necessary,
after we have selected positions that seem suitable for the respective
applicants, to ask our employers to come to the office to interview
these girls in order to relieve them of any anxiety of trying to find
their way about a big city with which they are not familiar. She
further states that, “ On looking back over the day, I realize what
a great work this office is doing.”
Now, o f course, you people here in America have not selective
immigration from the British Isles, so it is a little hard for you
to visualize what 65 new arrivals coming at one time into your
office means. It is a new country—they are full of adventure,
anticipation, and anxious to get the position that offers the most
money; oftentimes they are looking for something for which they
are not qualified, and our difficulty is to meet this, to get them satis
factory salaries—salaries which are going to satisfy— and yet put
them in positions for which they are qualified.
Another thing we must safeguard. These girls always want to
go where they have friends or relatives. That may be out of town
some distance, and one thing we must discover is whether they
have money enough to go to their destination, for if we do not it
creates a great deal of extra work for the office. It is true our
own people do not treat domestic work as an opportunity with a
future. However, it is also true that some of those who have
saved the most money have earned it in this fashion. I think now
o f a children’s nurse we placed when the employment service first
opened. Just last week her employer told me that she was going
back to the old country and would be able to live on her savings.
This employer guided her investments so well that that nurse has
accumulated $10,000. In addition to that, the employer is giving
her a bonus of $500 and passage home in consideration of faithful
services rendered over a period of about 12 years.
There are many other phases of employment opportunities that
are worthy of consideration, but possibly in the discussion period
these may be mentioned. I refer especially to those who, una,ble
to secure any special training, go into factory work. No girl in
STANDARDIZED
system
of e m p l o y e r v is i t a t io n
83
Ontario may begin work until she is 16 years of age, which means
that many workers have a year or even two years of high-school
training. I think the textile industry absorbs more girls than any
other, and those who apply themselves and learn some branch o f
the work, such as knitting, winding, cutting, operating, and so forth,
need never be out of employment. In our office we are continually
holding orders for such workers, which we are unable to fill. A girl
who is successful in this work draws a wage equal to that of an
experienced stenographer. Other industries offer equal opportuni
ties and all female workers are protected by the minimum wage laws.
It is advisable for any student to work at least two or three vaca
tions before graduating. I recommend to them to take some posi
tion even if it is not in the line in which they are specializing. It
gives them a better understanding of the amount of competition
there is in the business world. I f it is someone taking a general
course, it may also serve as a guide to them in deciding what line to
follow.
As time goes on we shall find that many new doors will be open to
women of vision, and that the woman who discovers where her oppor
tunity really lies blazes the trail for others to follow.
After these deliberations on employment opportunities for women
in the Province of Ontario, which it is true can be more or less
classed as opportunities in any Province or State, I think I can not
do better than close with the words of the unknown poet who wrote
the little poem entitled, “ The Sphere of a Woman.”
They talk about a woman’s sphere,
As though it had a limit;
There’s not a place in earth or heaven,
There’s not a task to mankind given,
There’s not a blessing or a woe,
There’s not a whispered yes or no,
There’s not a life, a death, or birth,
That has a featherweight of worth,
Without*a woman in it.
Chairman K oveleski. I do not think, Miss Kennedy, you have left
any room for discussion. We will proceed with the next speaker.
It affords me great pleasure this morning to introduce to you Mr.
Will T. Blake, Director of Industrial Relations of the State of Ohio.
[Before taking up the discussion of the subject Mr. Blake pre
sented to the convention a message from Governor Cooper, of Ohio,
conveying the official greetings of that State and the personal wish
of the governor that the convention might be the most inspiring,
profitable, and successful in the history of the organization.]
Value o f a Standardized System o f E m ployer Visita
tion b y Accredited Em ployees o f the P ublic E m p loy
m ent Service
By W
il l
T . B lake,
Director Department of Industrial Relations of Ohio
I want to say, like the speaker last evening, that this topic was
wished upon me. Had I been consulted, perhaps I should have
selected something with which I had more familiarity. You will
observe, however, that it is a lengthy subject, but one perhaps as
84
SEV E N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETING — I. A. P. E. S.
important as it is lengthy. Notwithstanding its length and its im
portance, I intend to deal with it with extreme brevity, and in
order not to be misunderstood, I might also add that I intend to
deal with it in no sense as an expert or an authority. For as a mat
ter of fact it has only been in the last few months, or since assuming
my present administrative relationship with governmental affairs
in Ohio, that I have given this problem any serious thought or
study. All I purpose doing now is merely to call your attention
to a few observations which I have made, and to a few conclusions
which I seem to have been warranted in drawing from those
observations; and then to leave the whole proposition in your
hands, with the freedom to accept or reject as much of it as you may
choose.
A t the present time, the State of Ohio exercises direct supervi
sion over, I should say, a dozen or more public employment offices,
and has indirect supervision over 90 or more private employment
offices in which the number of persons employed varies from as few
as 1 or 2 in the smaller towns and municipalities up to as many as
30 or more in the larger cities.
A few days ago, in somewhat of an intensive effort to get ready
for this assignment, I made a rather hurried survey of some of the
reports o f these public and private employment agencies, and I was
very agreeably surprised to discover that this significant fact
invariably stood out conspicuously—that the public employment
offices showing the greatest gain in placements over a given period
of time, considered from the standpoint of the number of different
crafts placed, were invariably the public employment offices that gave
the greatest attention to employer, plant, or superintendent or fore
man visitation. This fact was invariably true and made an immedi
ate convert of me—if I needed conversion—to the importance and
the necessity of employer-plant visitation if an agency, or an office,
or a bureau were to function at anything like, its maximum efficiency.
Now, just a word about this maximum efficiency. I do not think
that maximum efficiency will ever be achieved on the part o f any
superintendent or his or her secretaries or assistants who are content
to remain behind their desks, take the applications o f the men and
the women who apply to them for work, and then fold their arms and
sit, as it were—it is never at any time quite so bad as that—until some
thoughtful or needy or beneficent employer calls up the public em
ployment service and puts in a requisition for some o f the men or the
women who have registered for work. ^
Mv reaction to that type of service is just this, that that is surely
a sordid type o f maximum service; and surely no one here this morn
ing will want to take the position that it represents the type of
maximum service that the bureau should give. Maximum service,
it seems to me, can only be reached by employer-plant visitation, and,
mark you, by regular visitation as distinguished from the so-called
casualor haphazard method of dealing with such a problem.
The employer must be educated to the use and the value of the
public employment service. That, it seems to me, stands without
argument. He must be familiarized with the type of applicants who
are applying to you for work, and it does seem to me that the per
sonal contact brought about by employer, superintendent, foreman,
STANDARDIZED SYSTEM OF EM PLO YER VISITATIO N
85
or plant visitation affords a very excellent opportunity for laying
the essential foundation, at least, for such education.
I have in mind now a superintendent in one of our public employ
ment offices back in Ohio who makes it an invariable rule, as regu
larly as the month comes around, to call on every employment
manager in every factory and every plant in her particular com
munity and district.
Now what happens at such a contact? Why, the type of personnel
employed in this particular plant or factory and the vacancies or
jobs, if any, are discussed, and then and there interviews are set up
with the various men and women registered by the office or bureau
who seem to be best equipped from the standpoint of experience and
training to fit into such jobs.
It does not, however, always follow that, as a result of those inter
views, vacant jobs are found and, if found, that the right types of
men or women are available to fill them. You understand that. But
this is the point I want you to note here, that it does invariably follow
that an acquaintanceship with the service is set up or established
with the employer, and as a result of that acquaintanceship the em
ployer is encouraged to make a greater use of the service of the
bureau or office than would have been the case if no such personal
contact had been made.
I would like to throw out another thought suggestively. This
principle o f plant visitation should not stop there. I believe that
it should be extended to include calls on the employment managers
of the retail stores, and perhaps calls on the store managers of the
smaller business enterprises, according to the needs or the character
o f the particular district or municipality or city in which the public
employment bureau may happen to be functioning.
Another method. I should say— and I just throw this out sug
gestively—in whicn the system perhaps can be standardized and
expanded, is to present it when a contract for some public improve
ment or some new building is awarded to some out-of-town contrac
tor or firm. Now just what should we do in such a case? Well, I
believe the practical thing for us to do is to make an immediate
contact with the contractor or the firm, placing the service of the
bureau or the office or the agency at his or its disposal; and not to
stop there, either. I think that such a contact should be followed
up with interviews, as soon as the proper executive sets foot on the
ground.
Now, to my way of thinking, this is all a part of the employerplant visitation idea, and that, if adopted and seriously followed,
would unquestionably bring about the desired beneficial results.
There is another method I would like to mention briefly in pass
ing, but, as I said a moment ago, only suggestively. The bulletin
method o f acquainting the employers with the number of men and
the types o f men available for work has its distinct advantages, as
you know, in bringing about employer-plant contact, and I feel it is
to be commended. But I do not feel that the bulletin method of
establishing this contact should be used, to the utter disregard or
exclusion o f the personal method of making this contact. The thing
that I believe should be done there, if anything should be done, is
that one method should supplement the other, not displace it.
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SEVE N TE E N T H A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A. P . E . S.
The greatest number of placements are at present being made
among the so-called casual or common-labor type. I believe that if
a standardized system of employer-plant visitation is carried out
with any degree of seriousness that this will expand the industrial
horizon o f the public employment service. And surely if it is ex
panded, it will add a new dignity and a new prestige to the public
employment service.
Like all innovations, obviously the adoption of employer visitation
at regular intervals will presuppose changes in office routine, changes
in office budgets, and the like. But these surely ought not to be
difficult o f management and ought, in my judgment, to be made in
the interest of progress and the common good. The fee-charging
agencies are using this system and it works for the fee-charging
agencies; and, if it works for the fee-charging agencies, obviously it
will work for the free or public employment agencies if it is tried,
but it must be tried in order to make it work. And I seriously doubt
whether the free public employment offices will ever be able effec
tively to compete with the fee-charging agencies, or to do the work
that the free public employment agencies are potentially capable of
doing, unless they establish employer, plant, superintendent, and
foreman visitation.
Now, with this closing observation, I am through. It was Bishop
Spaulding, distinguished scholar and clergyman^ who said: “ The
chief business in nfe is simply learning how to live.5’ To that the
bishop added that one of the best ways of learning how to live is
simply learning how to serve—socially, industrially, and in the
spiritual realms of life; and it seems to me, when I stop seriously
to consider the important work which you men and women are doing
for the unemployed everywhere, that I can say frankly and truth
fully that you have discovered the secret of that great principle.
DISCUSSION
Chairman K oveleski. The paper just read by Mr. Blake is now
open for discussion.
Mr. D obbs (Toronto). I was very much interested in what Mr.
Blake was saying, in view of the procedure that we follow in the
city o f Toronto. Our procedure is to get an introductory letter to
the firm first, and then follow it up with a visit from a scout. Our
scouts do most of the plant visitation. The scouts maintain a con
tact between the firm in question and our office, which is supple
mented by letter. We have a system with the Toronto Industrial
Commission whereby we are advised of new businesses, new firms,
coming into the city and starting up, and we immediately establish
a contact through our scout or plant visitor, such as Mr. Blake re
ferred to. But we go further. We have an arrangement with large
firms in the city of Toronto whereby we make a tour o f the plant
at certain periodic intervals and study their different processes to
see the types of men they want. In that way our efficiency is in
creased so far that we can supply men with the particular qualifica
tions they want.
Miss S chneiderm an (New Y ork). I think the last paper was very
Y^luable to all of us ^ho are interested in employment a,nd place-
E M PLO YE R VISITATION— DISCUSSION
87
ment. At a legislative hearing last winter in New York, in which
your chairman took part, it was brought out that employers do not
cooperate with the public employment service to the extent they
should. And anything we can do to bring about that cooperation,
it seems to me, is well worth discussing here to-day. It was also
brought out at that hearing in New York that employment man
agers are usually partial to the private employment service rather
than to the public employment service. And not always does their
partiality occur merely because they love the private employment
service. Sometimes employment officials—factory employment man
agers—find it pays to have a large turnover and continually to go
on getting new help, because the private employment service makes
it a profitable thing that this should happen. I am sure that em
ployers are just as patriotic as any of us, that they appreciate this
free employment service— and it really isn’t free as we all pay for
it— every man who gets a job from a public employment office pays
for it through taxation; it is the cooperative effort of the people
of the State as a whole. And we haven’t even scratched the surface
o f the value that such a service could be if we all went at it in the
way the previous speaker emphasized.
But employers ought to be interested in this. As was said yes
terday, there is nothing so tragic as a man out of a job trying to
locate a job, and if the employer is an interested citizen I am sure
when he is visited by the superintendent of the employment service
or other person whose business it is to visit employers and lay before
them the kind o f help they can get them, that the appeal will be worth
while and that he will then inquire as to why his turnover is so
unusual at times and will instruct his employment manager to pat
ronize the public employment service rather than the private em
ployment agency.
Chairman K o v e l e s k i . Might I say for the benefit of the delegates
that Miss Schneiderman and her office staff have ably assisted me
in the preparation of the bill regulating the private agencies. While
we did not get it over, we are going to try it again; we are going to
put it in charge of Miss Schneiderman and I am going to take my
hands off and let her put it across. We are expecting that her com
mittee—the advisory committee appointed by the governor which is
now investigating or making a survey of the private employment
offices in the State of New York—will recommend some regulation
so that we can get rid of 1,162 of the private agencies in the city of
New York.
Now is there anyone else who wishes to discuss the paper which
was read this morning?
Vice President H udson (Toronto). I would like to say something.
Among the very interesting and valuable points stressed by Mr.
Blake was the question of the education of the employer. It doesn’t
matter how many applicants we have; if we have thousands of
applicants and no jobs we might as well close our doors. The only
way to get the cooperation of the employer is by a process of educa
tion, and in addition the method suggested, that of plant visitation.
You may be interested to know that we have made an experiment
in Ontario this last year, by visiting the service clubs. I spoke to
38852°—31------7
88
SEV E N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETIN G — I. A. P . E. S.
25 service clubs last year—Kiwanis, Rotary, chamber o f commerce
clubs, and so on. You reach your employers directly by that
method, and you reach them when they are in a frame of mind
to listen. They have just had a good square meal and a few songs
to pep them up, and if you can not get your message over at a
service club, you will never get it over anywhere. I am glad to tell
you that in about half the cases I had orders for help immediately
following the session. The most outstanding example was the
case o f a man in the town of Bellville, who, within 10 minutes o f the
close of the luncheon, gave me an order for a plant superintendent to
take complete charge of a factory to build radio cabinets.
With further reference to canvassing, I passed a hole in the
ground on Bloor Street about a year ago, and happened to be with
Mr. Dobbs, who said, “ We have got the jobs for the elevator opera
tors in that building.” And I said, “ What building ? ” He said,
“ The building that is going to be in that hole.” That is employ
ment work. He had his handicapped men all placed before the
construction of the building had commenced. That shows coopera
tion with employers to the ^th degree.
With regard to keeping in touch with contractors, our system
and our offices are so closely connected that when a Toronto con
tractor obtains a contract to build a school or a theater, say in Port
Arthur or Timmins, our Toronto office superintendent immediately
sends someone to interview that contractor and creates good will for
the Timmins or Port Arthur superintendent, and in that way when
the representatives o f the company go to the town or the city where
the construction is actually to proceed, they are already three-fourths
sold on the employment service idea and in a good mood to give the
local office a trial.
Mr. G r a m (Oregon). In regard to the employer needing educa
tion, I also think, from our experience out in Oregon, that the
employees need education also. The fee-charging agencies come
under the supervision of our department, and we had certain rules
and regulations put into effect for the benefit of the service. One
o f the rules we have made is that the employment agent must keep
a list of all the men he sends out, giving the name of the employer,
the place they are sent to, the wages they receive, and the fee charged
for each job. Those reports are mailed to our office weekly.
The law also provides that the employment agent must be sure
that he has got the job before he sends the man out for it. The
man is entitled to the return of his fee and transportation both ways
if the job is not as represented by the agent.
O f course, in our State the major industry is lumbering. We have
only one real large city in the State, and that is Portland. It is
quite a lumbering center there. We have another town, Eugene,
135 miles from Portland; the next one is down in Marshville, which
is 265 miles from Portland. In Eugene, we have a free employment
office. The expense of that office is paid by the employers. They
pay 10 cents per month per man employed. We also have two free
employment offices in the city of Portland. Whenever there is a
shortage of men at Eugene, especially in the busy season, I take it
up with the man in charge there, requesting that if he needs any
extra help to place his order through the free employment offices
EM PLO YE E VISITATIO N — DISCUSSION'
89
in the city of Portland. Those offices tried faithfully to fill the posi
tions sent in, but when they got to the workers they said, “ N o; I
won’t take the job through this office, I ’ll take it through one of
these fee-charging offices, because I am perfectly willing to pay
the fee for the job if the job is as it is represented, but if I go out
from your office here and the employer or the foreman won’t take
me on the job, I have no comeback; I have to go at my own expense.”
That is what we are up against in those communities where there
are free employment offices. And I might say, by the way, that we
refuse to grant licenses for offices outside the city of Portland—of
course, we have to grant them there—but in Eugene we won’t do it.
We refuse licenses there to fee-charging employment offices because
we do not want them to interfere with the public offices. But that
is what we are up against regarding the employees. They refuse to
go. They are willing to pay fdr the job, because if they travel 125
or 250 miles and find the job is misrepresented, they can jump on the
train and come back and have their money returned.
In reference to regulation of fee-charging agencies, 12 years ago,
when I came into office, I found there were 52 licensed offices in the
State. The license fee at that time ran from $2.50 to $50 per year,
based upon the population. The $50 fee was in the city of Portland.
The result o f that was that anybody who had $50, if he had nothing
else to do, would open up an employment agency, and the workers
were robbed. We found that there were four men in the employmentagency business in Portland who had been in the business a number
o f years, and we never had any complaints against those four offices.
Previous to taking action, we sent for these four men, got them to
join hands with us, and then we amended the law, placed a license
fee from $50 to $250 a year, and made such agencies put up a bond
of $3,000 guaranteeing that they would carry out the provisions
o f the employment agency law. The result is that we have reduced
the number of fee-charging offices from 52 to 22. The immediate
effect was splitting o f fees between the fee-charging employment
agent and the foreman o f the job, and we have been unable entirely
to eliminate that. We have taken away a few licenses where we
were able to find evidence of splitting of fees, but the fee splitting
kept on just the same. Then those agencies got to fighting among
themselves, and one accused another of fee splitting. I said to one,
“ How does he do it? ” He said, “ It is this way. Bill Smith comes
in from camp. He is the camp foreman. He goes to a hotel, and
calls up the private employment office and says, ‘ This is Bill Smith.
I am in room so and so in such a hotel.’ ‘A ll right; be up there at
6 o’clock.’ They go out to dinner together; maybe the man from
the office has a little parcel with fire water in it. They have a few
drinks, and after dinner they return to Bill Smith’s room. Then
they start a poker game, and Bill Smith always wins, up to the time
when he has won 40 per cent o f the amount o f money that the work
ers have paid into the employment office in that month. Then the
game stops.” That is the way they are doing now.
I wish something could be done to eliminate the fee-charging em
ployment offices altogether. Under our law a charge of from $1.50
to $7.50 per job is permitted, depending on what the workers are
paid. In checking up, I find that up to the first of this month the
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fee-charging employment offices placed 48,441 workers. I think it is
fair to assume that they charged the workers at least $2 per job on
the average. On this basis, during that period the workers paid
$96,882 for the privilege of working. That should be abolished. I
do not know how it can be done. I do not think it can be done by
educating the employer alone; I think you have also to educate the
worker not to take jobs through them.
Mr. E ldridge (New Jersey). Personally, I was very much inter
ested to see at this convention the greater emphasis laid on the ques
tion of the placement of women than has been the habit previously.
I was further interested to note that in the expressions last evening
and this morning on the question, the hope for improvement or ad
vancement in the women’s division was apparently for an extension
into the clerical and technical line. It has been said to me repeat
edly that the real responsibility of the public employment service is
an industrial responsibility, or rather one to the industry. That
may be 100 per cent true, and it may not b e; but for a long time I
have been interested in the results of the work in my State of New
Jersey, which apparently indicates that the great majority of the
placements by the women’s division have not been in the industrial
field. I shall be interested to learn, if I can, whether we are out of
line with other States’ experiences. In our average office, practically
no more than 20 per cent of the placements of the women seem to
be in the industrial field. We have one office where the placements
in the industrial field are as high as 46 per cent, but that is ex
plained because of the character of the district. The offices are
showing a comparative dearth of opportunity for casual and domestic
workers.
I would like to learn, if I can, what are the real difficulties in the
way of increasing the scope of the women’s division, as to industrial
work, and, also whether other communities and other States have a
greater percentage of industrial placements by that division than we
seem to have. I do not believe the difficulty would be in the way of
securing opportunities from employers for plant visitation, but
rather in the securing of applicants. This may be due to a peculiar
type o f thought o f the section or to something deficient in our ap
proach that we can, and I really think should, try to remedy.
I would like Miss Kennedy, from Toronto, or Mrs. Morgart from
Pittsburgh, if she will, to discuss that a little further than it has
been.
Chairman K oveleski. Miss Kennedy has just left. I think the
remarks made by Mr. Eldridge might be food for thought for that
open forum to-morrow morning; give you all day to think it over,
and make a nice discussion for to-morrow when he is presiding.
Does anyone else want to discuss Mr. Blake’s paper ?
Mr. D ollen (New Y ork). We have a placement by the women’s
department of 52.2 per cent in the industrial field.
I am sorry for the poor superintendent. All of you seem to think
that the superintendent is the one to make the visits. Well, we have
1,892 factories in Rochester, as defined by the State law, of which
there are 35 employing over 1,000 employees; so you can imagine
what the superintendent would have to do. We departed from the
regular routine and had one of our men for 16 weeks visit all the
EM PLO YE R VISITATION — DISCUSSION
91
factories, supplying a report to Mr. Koveleski and myself, which
was in turn sent to the director general and to the chief of the divi
sion. As a result of that, I am happy to say that we were able, when
called before the investigating committee, to establish under oath,
beyond reasonable doubt, that the State employment service o f the
western district o f New York, or rather the sixth and seventh ju
dicial districts, o f which I am superintendent, had a majority o f
placements of skilled help, refuting the statement that the State em
ployment agencies are only for casuals and unskilled. We proved
conclusively at that time "that our office had a majority of place
ments o f skilled help. We have investigated the declining wood
working industry of Rochester, and established to our own satisfac
tion that the reason for not receiving more applications for em
ployees was because of the cheapness of the manufacture of sash,
doors, and blinds, and kindred products in the Western States and
also in the Southern States. That was the reason for it.
We also were able to establish with the hospitals a better under
standing in regard to promotions to be given. The position was
established at $40 to $50 a month and maintenance, and now we have
been successful in getting an understanding with four of the nine
hospitals, particularly the municipal and the Strong Memorial, that
they will advance and promote a man from janitor and porter to
ward man, and on up the line. That we accomplished.
But if the States expect us to do this work, they have got to give
us extra employees. At the present time, I know of no State whose
personnel is not undermanned and overworked. Our particular
representative visits the factories for 16 weeks, although every
Thursday some member of our organization visits some plant—a
plant o f his own selection, or a plant suggested by the superintendent
where trouble has arisen with its employees, by an extra turnover, or
because of some misunderstanding between the employment man
agement and the factory management of that particular industry.
Personally, I am acquainted with all o f the employment men and the
others, and it is not necessary for me to go around myself. That
visiting man or woman must be a salesman, a personal contact man,
and in fact a diplomat. Also, there must be some available petty
cash account, so that he can meet his current expenses without wait
ing 60 or 90 days for his car fare or other small expenses that he
may incur.
These are the things that we are confronted with; of course you
will all appreciate that when the business of a free employment
agency is going well, the other fellow is running it—your immediate
superior; and when it is not going so good, you are running it, be
cause you are the superintendent.
I take advantage of this opportunity to say that in the State of
New York, as far as I know, we never raise the question of “ native
son.” W e do not care where you come from, so long as you are in
the State of New York and behaving yourself and conforming to
the laws o f our State. The job is there if you are able and capable
o f filling it. I do not like to ask you if you are a legal citizen, be
cause if you were not a legal citizen, deportation would be the ulti
mate and inevitable result.
The last act that I performed officially before leaving the office
was to place a Canadian medical student with one of our large
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concerns. He will return to Canada this fall, and we are helping
him. This is not paternalistic; it is just a part of our function. I
do not like that paternalistic stuff; I have heard so much of it I
am tired of it. W e are standing on our own feet and trying to
help the fellow, but not from a charitable standpoint, because we
can all get that sob-story stuff; we have it every day in the week.
For that reason, it is, from my point of view, very necessary that we
should have personal contact with the employer and the employment
manager. Now, all men and all women in your office may not be
adapted to that work. Therefore, it is advisable, to my way of
thinking, to have such men or women go where they are welcome
or can do the most good. There may not be jobs available, per
haps, for several weeks afterwards.
I know of a case where a particular concern did not like the
superintendent, but we got the job just the same, and gave it to a
particular man, and it was immaterial to us so long as we had the
placement and the man in the job. What we are trying to accom
plish is factory visitation, and I hope that we will all go home and
do that.
[Mr. Blake was tendered the thanks of the convention for his
address.]
[Meeting adjourned.]
THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 1929— AFTERNOON SESSION
Chairman, J. O. Hopwood, Superintendent of Employment, Philadelphia Electric Co. and Presi
dent Personnel Association of Philadelphia
Chairman H o pw o o d . A s a representative of one of the industrials
Philadelphia, I appreciate very much the honor of being assigned
preside at this meeting. Your employment problems are allied
our employment problems, and we are glad to cooperate with you
discussing them.
The subjects for discussion this afternoon both relate to profes
sional features of placement work, and both speakers are univer
sity men who have made special studies of these subjects. The first
speaker, whose subject is Placement Work as a Profession, is Sidney
W. Wilcox, of the University of Pittsburgh.
of
to
to
in
Placem ent W ork as a P rofession
B y S id n e y W . W
il c o x ,
Bureau of Business Research, University of Pittsburgh
In honor o f the acting president of the association I must tell you
how, in Chicago, I gained a first-hand impression of the efficiency
o f the Canadian Employment Service. One of the young men in
my office, when I was chief o f the Illinois bureau of labor statistics,
during his vacation went from Chicago to New York, up into
Canada and back again. You will not be surprised, knowing that
he was a government clerk, when I tell you that his mode of travel
was less expensive than Pullman cars. He went hitch hiking. He
called at employment offices in various States, and also became
acquainted with the work of various State statistical bureaus. At
the employment offices he introduced himself as a worker in search
o f a job; at the statistical bureaus, as a member of the staff o f the
Illinois bureau o f labor statistics. A ll went well until he got to
Canada. There the placement clerk showed such energy and began
resorting to the telegraph so freely that it smote the conscience of
our young friend, and he revealed to the placement clerk his real
position and errand. But his hitch-hiking clothes made the clerk
slow to believe that the young fellow before him held a responsible
position with the State of Illinois. When the placement clerk
inspected his credentials, however, and became convinced, he tried
to make up for his incredulity by introducing the young man forth
with to high officials of the Canadian service. In each case the
clothes were explained by some remark about testing out the effi
ciency of the free employment service. With true courtesy the Cana
dian officials insisted on honoring him with a reduced fare over the
Canadian railways. Our young friend was ashamed to tell them
that he was hitch hiking. The result was that a telegram came to
my desk, reading: “ Please send $30 at once. Am in trouble.” On
his return he told us the story. The whole office agreed that if the
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Canadian service could first frighten our man by the imminence of
a job, then drown him in courtesies, then pry him loose from $30
of his boss’s money, the service must be efficient.
My subject is Placement Work as a Profession. Suppose some
fond mamma had told you that her daughter had married a pro
fessional man. What would you think if, when you went to call
on the newly married couple, you found that the man looked and
acted like a prize fighter—the traditional, not the Gene Tunney
type— with cauliflower ears for good measure, and you learned
very soon from him that he was a professional wrestler? You
would think that the word “ professional ” had two meanings, and
that you had understood one meaning when the other was the
actual one. I shall use the word in the first sense—the sense in
which we speak of medicine, the law, and the ministry as profes
sions, not the sense in which we say that an athlete has lost his
amateur standing and become a professional. There is this in
common between the two meanings: In both cases the profession
is the means of livelihood—for physician and for wrestler, for
minister and for professional gambler. But there is this differ
ence. The true doctor will respond to the call of the poor, who
can not pay him a fee. He will go out into the storms o f winter.
He is devoted not only to persons but to science. The physicians
who developed the technique o f anaesthetics and o f yellow-fever
control risked their lives in the endeavor. The physician, i f he is
true to the traditions of his profession, places service above self.
We have, then, two of the characteristics of a profession. The
profession is the source of income, but it imposes the higher law that
service, not income, shall be the animating purpose and the meas
ure of attainment. A third characteristic is that there is close
personal contact between the practitioner and his client. As a fourth
there must have been a period of intensive study and training, fol
lowed by a perennial willingness and determination to learn. It is
not an accident of speech when we refer to “ the learned profes
sions.” The fifth characteristic is that there should be a certain
worth o f character, an unpurchasable honor, a love of truth that
transcends all persons and all interests, and a faith that can never
remain discouraged.
How did nursing become a profession? There was a time, not
long ago, when the nurse and the milkmaid were on the same social
scale, with the difference that it took a stronger stomach and
coarser grain to be a nurse. Florence Nightingale is usually
praised for the marvelous service which she rendered to the British
soldiers in the Crimean War. But she could not have rendered
that service if she had not had the courage, long before, to take
on herself the social ostracism of a nurse, and forget her refined
home that she might secure training in the continental hospitals.
Long before the war broke out she was ready. But to return to the
question: Why is it that refined and cultured girls go into the
profession of nursing now, when a generation or two ago it was
the girl from a family with the least in the way o f social standing
who was looked upon as a fit recruit for the coarse and miserably
paid work of nursing? The answer is this: (1) A growing reali
zation on the part of doctors and laymen and on the part of nurses
PL A C E M E N T W O RK AS A PROFESSION
95
themselves o f the importance of nursing; (2) ever higher standards
o f training and preparation exacted of new recruits; and (3) a dis
tinction in pay between the trained and the practical nurse, with
a rising scale o f pay for both.
Is what is true of the physician and nurse true also of the super
intendent and the placement clerk in the employment office? Is
his activity the source of his livelihood? Yes. Is it or should it be
suffused by an unfailing spirit of service? Most decidedly, yes.
Is there a close personal relationship between the practitioner and
the client? Yes. Is the activity one in which character counts, in
which reserves o f personality are needed? Yes; even more perhaps
when the task is ministering to the soul-sickness that seizes those
who have lost their jobs. One more question: Is the work one that
requires training and experience, that employs extensive technique,
that throws on the practitioner the responsibility for making im
portant decisions, and expects of him the extensive knowledge of
facts and principles without which judgment becomes guesswork?
In the light o f things as they are, it is painful to answer this ques
tion. The placement officer should have an effective knowledge of
machines and processes, occupations and industries, job specifications
and the kaleidoscopic changes that are taking place in them; he
should know which are blind-alley occupations and which will lead
to the portals of the future; he should be able to understand and
even to forecast fundamental economic conditions, not merely in
the aggregate, but industry by industry and even firm by firm; he
must know the firms, likewise, according to their personal policies,
whether they are enlightened or benighted; he should know and
have the confidence of their personnel officers or employment man
agers; he must be wise to all the devices, good and bad, of the
employment game. Upon the corporations and the public his im
press must be such that they will follow his lead in better ways of
dealing with unemployment, and in the will and the faith to stabilize
industry. Upon the discouraged worker whose morale has caved
in, his firm and tender touch must be of a kind such as that by which
miracles are wrought; and the worker, after feeding upon the vitality
of the placement clerk, goes forth, in the confidence of things hoped
for and the evidence of things not seen, to make his best and not
his worst impression on the prospective employer. The placement
clerk must know languages and racial characteristics. He must
pierce through the armor of the bluffer as surely as he binds up
the wounds o f the broken; he must give confidence to him who has
an inferiority complex, and conscience to him who has never learned
that “ truthfulness in work is as much needed as truthfulness in
speech.” He must interpret to society the heartache and the awful
social cost of unemployment, the stark tragedy of the man of 45, and
how the full price is exacted of his children. He must deal, day after
day and hour after hour, with the civilized world’s most dread and
weighty social problem without becoming neurasthenic and senti
mental or callous and self-serving. He must do all this, knowing
that behind his back the cheap politicians are ready to cut him
down if he resists their efforts to turn the employment service into
a device for paying political debts. He must give his children the
thorough preparation which his daily work convinces him it is mad
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ness to neglect; he must keep out of debt; and he must manage on
$2,100 a year.
We all realize the great gulf that seems to be fixed between
employment work as it should be and employment work as it is.
But what can be done about it? Not for reasons of false pride but
for the sake of the weighty issues involved must it be lifted to the
standing of a profession both in fact and in the esteem of the public.
This can not be done by legislation. There is a quaint though not
an ancient law on the Illinois statute books that declares the work
o f the barber to be a profession. But that does not change the sig
nificance nor the standing of the work of the barber for better or
worse. The path that must be followed by employment workers is
the path of better training, higher standards, larger pay. It avails
nothing to complain that employers’ associations, legislatures, the
public, and even the workers themselves are blind to the possibilities
o f the public employment service. Something concrete must be done.
President Hoover has led the way in arousing new concern and,
what is more to the point, new will power in connection with the
unemployment problem. There are signs of new interest in the pub
lic employment offices. The strategic thing to do is to capitalize the
situation in their behalf.
I would suggest that a resolution be supported by the delegates of
the United States to the International Association of Public Em
ployment Services, subject to the consent of the whole association,
to the effect that the secretary of the association be instructed to
transmit to the President and the Congress o f the United States a
resolution of the following general tenor:
Be it resolved, That, through congressional action and presidential appoint
ment, a national advisory board of public employment service should be created
whose membership should consist of public-spirited citizens from 5 to 11 in
number, serving without pay, representative of various interests and favorable
to the development of the public employment service, State and local as well
as national, and whose functions among others would be:
(1) To serve as a pattern for State and local advisory boards and to encourage
their appointment.
(2) To bring into existence or into notice a body of literature for the guid
ance alike of the paid staff of the public employment offices and the advisory
committee men.
(3) To encourage universities to provide training needed for placement work
supplemented by cooperative arrangements with factories and plants whereby
students might gain practical familiarity with the requirements of various jobs
and the points of view of both management and men.
(4) To assist the staff of the public employment service by counsel, encour
agement to further training, and in all practicable ways in the better perform
ance of their duties.
(5) To assist, and at least by example to encourage, State and local boards
to assist in all proper ways in the effective administration of civil-service laws
and to protect the employment service from the sinister influence of politics.
(6) To serve as a source of information and counsel freely available to
industrial commissions, State departments of labor, and other administrative
officers, especially by formulating standards.
(7) To make contacts between the public employment service and employers
and employers’ associations and likewise between the service and labor organi
zations in the interest of cooperation, fair play, and efficiency.
(8) To encourage research in the pertinent fields of employment and unem
ployment with especial reference to the regularization of industry, making full
use of the fact-finding possibilities of the census and of the public employment
offices.
P L A C E M E N T W ORK AS A PROFESSION
97
(9)
To interpret the employment work of the public employment service to
the public and to legislative bodies with the intent of securing adequate moral
and financial support.
It must be conceded that advisory boards have not always lived
up to their possibilities in the past, and also that there is uncertainty
as to the best form of organization—whether, for example, a local
advisory board should have the superintendent of the public employ
ment office as its secretary or whether, as in Illinois, it should meet
and confer with him but be organized on an entirely separate basis.
It must be conceded that advisory boards, even at their best, can
not redeem and make over the administration of the public employ
ment service, but the proof that they can do much is the fact that
instances are not wanting where they have done much. Mr. Lippart, of Milwaukee, at the meeting of this convention in Cleveland
a year ago, told of the notable service rendered by the advisory
committee in his city and on one occasion the committee had saved
the whole situation. And this instance does not stand alone. Fur
thermore, there is a growing interest these days in administration as
distinguished from legislation. The advisory board is clearly and
avowedly an administrative aid. There is a new attitude o f expec
tation with regard to the public employment service. The advisory
board is in a strategic position to mediate between the enlightened
section o f the public and the active staff of the employment offices.
There is a change not only in degree, but in the direction of the
public interest in the whole unemployment problem with increasing
emphasis on the possibilities and rewards of regularizing industry
and thus getting to the root of the matter. The statistics which
the public employment offices are in a position to furnish will be
taken more seriously; new and insistent demands for further infor
mation will be made. This invests the advisory board with the
added responsibility of developing and safeguarding data without
which the nigh adventure can not spread its wings.
The rejuvenation o f the advisory board movement was my first
suggestion for lifting the public employment service to the higher
level implied by the word “ profession.” The second would seem
to be the statutory requirement in all the States of public hearings
in connection with the issuing of licenses to private employment
agencies at which three things should be submitted to the light of
day: (a) The character and fitness of the manager and the place
ment clerks; (5 ) the suitability of the premises; and (c) the public
necessity and convenience to be served by the proposed office. This
seems to be the most promising present-day approach to the prob
lem o f regulating private employment agencies. The Supreme
Court, by its decision in the case o f Eibnik v. McBride, has swept
away administrative control over the fees which the agencies may
charge. Experience shows that inspection, prosecution, and fines
are broken reeds upon which to lean, or at least that they alone are
too negative in character to meet the need. Experience also shows,
notably in Wisconsin, that the requirement of hearings increases
the quality and decreases the quantity of private employment offices.
Let me also point out the reflex enect of calling upon manufac
turers’ associations, chambers o f commerce, trade-unions, and publicspirited citizens to attend a hearing and give testimony concerning
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the manager, the quarters, and the service of the private employment
agency. There is both a product and a by-product. The product
is the weeding out of the unfit; the by-product is the teaching of
the public that placement work is socially important. What is this
strange activity that can commandeer the services o f men and
women o f worth and standing to serve on its advisory boards and
to appear at its hearings ? Whether it is ever known by the name of
profession or not, it has but to take itself seriously and discharge
its functions well to receive a corresponding recognition.
With some hesitation I offer a third proposal. I believe it might
bring us a step nearer the goal if this association should create a
special type of membership, to be designated perhaps as “ certificate
membership ” and to be open only to those who have completed train
ing, have passed examinations, and have shown practical proficiency
to the satisfaction of some national standardizing agency, which
should be beyond the influence or control o f this body but which
should work cooperatively with it. Ultimately the setting o f stand
ards for the profession should be within the profession itself, but
for the present it would be well for a committee of university men
and publicists—I am thinking of such men as John B. Andrews, who
addressed this body two days ago— a committee o f that type, to have
power to grant or to withhold the special memberships in this asso
ciation which must be earned and the right to which must be proven.
It would be good propaganda in university circles to call upon them
to take the responsibility of forming an accrediting committee. It
would be good propaganda in political circles to draw attention to
something visible, like a certificate, to mark the distinction between
the trained and the untrained placement officer, thus reinforcing the
demand for ampler measures of immunity and compensation. And
the members of this association would be the last to deny the need
o f propaganda within the fraternity of employment workers in favor
o f training, vision, and the professional spirit. The most heartening
exhibit that can be made by any organization is the power and the
will to rejuvenate itself from within. Perhaps the simple device of
recognition by a special form o f membership would focus attention
and release forces long overdue. Ultimately we may expect to see
standards set for public employment office interviewers, yes, and for
private agency workers, in the same manner as standards are now
set for teachers; that is, by State action, with due formality at the
end o f a course of training that includes both the mastery of sub
jects and supervised practice. But political action ever lags behind
the vision of the vanguard. This association might be able to render a
notable service by experimenting with the possibilities of certification.
The three proposals for lifting employment office work to a higher
status are not independent, but supplement each other. The calling
into existence of National, State, and local advisory boards would
be evidence of interest in the administration of the public employ
ment offices; the setting up of hearings on manager, place, and need
would be evidence of enlightenment in the regulation of private
employment offices; the device of a special membership would be
evidence of concern for the education of those on whom rests the
ultimate responsibility of placement. To placement clerks and su
perintendents of the public employment offices the working out o f
these suggestions would signify information, counsel, encourage
PL A C E M E N T W O RK ---- DISCUSSION
99
ment to training, accrediting, protection from politicians, access to
firms, interpretation to the public, support from the legislature, and
the refreshment of soul that comes from contact with men and
women who count and who care. To science and to research work
ers the significance would be the safeguarding and utilization of the
priceless sources o f information on employment and unemployment
potentially available through our public employment offices, with
improved chances of getting similar information from private agen
cies. And to the unemployed in need of the right kind of work
and the firms in need of the right kind of workers there would be
the freer air unpolluted by the dishonesty, cruelty, and brazen ef
frontery o f some of the worst of the private agencies and unclouded
by the dust of inexperience and inadequacy which is acknowledged
to prevail in much of our public employment service. Granted
that these proposals are mere stepping stones to the larger areas
that must be subdued, they have the advantage of being definite and
of leading in the right direction. The resulting social esteem, scien
tific sanction, and practical service should go far toward gaining
recognition for placement work as a profession.
I was told by Doctor Cooper, of the Kingsley House in Pittsburgh,
about a family whose bread-winner, though able-bodied, industrious,
and o f good work record, had been thrown out o f work and could
not find a new job. There were the familiar stages of fruitless
hunting, the pinch of privation, the sacrifice of the children, the
growing family tension, and the breaking of the spirit of a willing
worker and a useful member of society. The utter despair that
finally seized him was described by the wife and mother in these
words: “ Tony, he sit all day an’ looka an’ looka an’ looka.” Is not
that a symbol o f society in search o f a solution of the unemploy
ment problem ? With anxious countenance, but with clasped hands,
society “ sits an’ looka an’ looka an’ looka.” Why not begin with
the task at hand? Can not the apprehension which is widespread
be quickened into action, to the end that the labor market be or
ganized as never before through a rejuvenated and efficient public
employment service? Then, in the light of tasks accomplished and
vision gained, may we not hope that industry will- pick up the
gauntlet and display the wit and the will and the sound business
sense to regularize its activities and banish the curse o f unemploy
ment? In that day the placement officer will be a valued technician
practicing his profession of intricate and continuous adjustment in
an organized labor market within a reorganized industry.
DISCUSSION
Chairman H opwood. I am glad to extend the thanks of the as
sociation to you, Mr. Wilcox, for this very excellent paper. I am
sure that we are all very much impressed by the facts that have been
presented and the outline o f a standard that has been presented for
employment work, and we must realize the urgent need of such
standards in this work. I presume there are some here who would
like to discuss the paper, and ask questions, which Mr. W ilcox will
be glad, I am sure, to answer if he can. There have been some very
constructive suggestions presented, and probably some one will have
some comments.
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SE V EN TEEN TH A N N U A L M EETIN G ---- 1. A. P. E. S.
Mr. B oyd (Illinois). In the very excellent paper presented by Mr.
Wilcox, one point brought out struck me very forcibly, and that was
his reference to Mr. Lippart’s paper read in Cleveland last year
in which he said the advisory committee of the employment offices
saved the employment offices of Wisconsin. I could attest to the fact
that not only in Wisconsin, but also in Illinois, they saved the em
ployment offices. Our advisory committee in Illinois has been the
means of the continuity of service rendered by almost the complete
staff o f the Illinois free employment offices. I feel confident that if
there were more advisory boards throughout the United States—in
the various States—that it would be a means of continuing, at least to
a greater degree, the employees who render faithful service in this
employment work. There are recommendations in Mr. W ilcox’s
paper that it seems to me should go to the resolutions committee,
and probably it would recommend mat the incoming board of direc
tors take action thereon. I will make that motion at the conclusion
o f the discussion.
Mr. C ook (Pennsylvania). Do I understand that the University
o f Pittsburgh has a course in personnel work; and if so, will Mr.
Wilcox explain it briefly ? Does it offer such a course as he proposes ?
Mr. W ilcox . I have been with the University of Pittsburgh a scant
month, and therefore am not very well acquainted with the details of
the work. Before that I had charge of the Illinois Bureau of Labor
Statistics. My particular work since that time has been in the bu
reau of business research of the University of Pittsburgh, and the
main teaching staff has been away on vacation, as the university
has just opened. Therefore I can not speak with any wealth of
information as to just what is going on. But I can say that the Uni
versity o f Pittsburgh has received money from the Buell Founda
tion for making a twofold study: (a) A study of the diversification
o f industry, with a hope that the city of Pittsburgh may not be so
wholly at the mercy o f an industry having such extreme fluctua
tions as the steel and coal industries. Carnegie said, “ With the iron
industry, it is always a feast or a famine.” And the hope is that
there may be other industries that will show less violent employment
changes. And (6) the other part of the study is a study of employ
ment and unemployment, with a view to getting not only the facts?
but also the remedies if possible. It is inevitable that studies oi
that kind, carried on with the field work of graduate students, will
attract interest in personnel work, and that the university will de
velop that type of work. There is something being done now—just
how much, I can not say—but the expectation is that much will be
done in the future.
Mr. B rock (Michigan). I think the suggestion o f Professor W il
cox as to the establishment of local advisory committees helps from
another angle. The professor’s suggestion was that these advisory
committees are a sort of a buffer between the employment bureau
personnel and possibly the heads of the department. Our experi
ence in Michigan has been that it has been a buffer for the head
o f the department also. Several of the cities appointed local com
mittees for the principal purpose of getting rid of some of the
employment bureau personnel who were inefficient; and because of
the tremendous pressure brought to bear by senators and represen
P L A C E M E N T W O RK — DISCUSSION
101
tatives from that particular district, it was somewhat difficult to
get rid of them. We have in each of the 10 cities where we operate
employment bureaus a committee of five, composed o f a represen
tative merchant, a manufacturer, a trade-unionist, a representative
woman—someone interested in social or civic work—and either a
minister, a doctor, or a professional man—preferably a minister—
to add a touch o f respectability to the thing. And in each o f these
cities where we had occasion to find fault with the work o f the
employment bureau personnel, these committees helped to convince
even the representatives in the district and the senators that a
change would be for the better. In many respects, even with the
small amount o f time we had to work with these committees, it
has elevated the whole tone of the employment bureau and has
enabled the local bureaus to make contacts that formerly were
denied to them. In a good many instances, bureaus, which had ex
isted in cities where for years a good many industries did not even
know of their existence, were able to branch out and get business
and requests from offices and clerks, something which they for
merly never had calls for, their chief function and work having
been to supply casual labor and in some cases skilled labor for the
building trades or shops.
In another way the local committees have helped in certain cities
where bureaus were established, and where the bureau was not
warranted because of the size of the town. Some years ago, we had
several bureaus located in cities of less than 10,000 population.
The annual placements amounted to about 180 or 190, at a per capita
cost o f placement in one particular city, I recall, of $9 per person.
And by having a local committee over there to survey the situa
tion, it in turn helped the department out by convincing the people
who were interested in keeping the bureau there primarily for the
purpose of keeping a job for some one and keeping an office rented
that it was an expense not warranted by the results gained. And
I want to say that the establishment of these committees throughout
the country would go a long way in elevating the tone as well as
the efficiency o f the bureau, and help both the personnel and the
heads o f the departments.
I would like to make this one addition. I think what the public
employment service throughout the country needs is more aid from
the Federal Government. I believe that ultimately, if the public
employment service is to be effective and efficient' and compete with
the private employment agencies, some sort of a cooperative scheme
similar to that of the Federal-aid roads ought to be established.
Such a thing was proposed some years ago, and I think some such
scheme is now under consideration by the Senate Committee on
Labor and Education. I believe the public employment bureau
folks throughout the country could give that movement considerable
impetus by talking to their Representatives and molding public
opinion. With a few millions of dollars appropriated on the part
of the Federal Government—perhaps a smaller amount to begin
with—in order to try the scheme out, and then on the basis of
the Federal Government matching dollar for dollar the money
raised by the State, more bureaus could be established to complete
the exchange, so there would not be the wide gaps that we now
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have, and the number of people in the bureaus as well as their
pay increased. In Michigan, two and one-half years ago, we used to
spend about $21,000 on public employment bureaus. We are now
spending over $40,000. We have fewer employment bureaus oper
ating, but we have more persons in them, and they are being
better paid—anywhere from 30 per cent to 50 per cent better—
so you can imagine how small the pay was. Twelve hundred dol
lars was the general pay. We have raised it now to $1,800 and
$2,000, and that is woefully inadequate. We have people in these
bureaus who could and ought to get at least $2,500 to $3,000.
The chief need, as I see it—judging by our experience and our
situation in Michigan, and I dare say that is more or less the situ
ation throughout the other States—is more money in order to have
a few more bureaus and more and better paid personnel. And with
the addition of local committees, I think such a plan as the professor
suggested here o f a national committee would logically follow. Then
we would have the foundation upon which to build an efficient pub
lic employment service, because as we are going now we are hardly
holding our own with the private employment agencies. I do not
want to go into the discussion of that phase of it. I just wanted to
tell you about the experience we have had, and I think that experi
ence is fairly applicable to nearly every other State.
Chairman H o p w o o d . I am sure we are glad to have these con
structive suggestions. Now are there any others, before we close the
discussion?
Mr. W il c o x . At the risk of speaking too much, I want to say that
Mr. Cook, of the National Teachers’ Agency, just placed in my hands
a list o f the students who took the very type of work that was under
discussion a moment ago. There are 17 students enrolled in the
University of Pittsburgh, so that there are more than I knew of.
[A motion was made, seconded, and carried that the recommenda
tions contained in Mr. Wilcox’s paper go to the resolutions com
mittee.]
Chairman H o p w o o d . The second paper is entitled 66Need for Em
ployment Workers in Public and Fee-Charging Employment Agen
cies to Have Proper Training ” and is to be given by Prof. F. G.
Davis, of Bucknell University.
Need fo r Em ploym ent W orkers in P ublic and FeeCharging Agencies to Have P roper Training
By
P rop.
F. G.
D
a v is ,
of Bucknell University
I like the way your chairman phrased his original assignment to
me for this address. He called it the “ necessity ” for persons in
public and fee-charging agencies to be properly trained. He did not
mention the “ desirability ” nor the “ importance ” nor the “ value.”
He went to the root of the matter and called it the necessity. In
phrasing the topic, he almost made the speech for me.
To-day I want to talk to you a little while about the need for
training on the part of employment men and women. Their prob
lem, as I see it, is fourfold: (1) Reduction of the enormous labor
turnover that exists in industry; (2) meeting the needs o f the great
E M P L O Y M E N T W ORKERS TO H AVE PROPER TR A IN IN G
103
body of persons who apply to them for assistance in getting placed
on jobs that will give them a living as well as satisfaction; (3)
meeting in a satisfactory manner the needs of the employers who
apply to them for employees; and (4) building up their own busi
ness and putting it on a permanent basis.
Reduction of labor turnover is the first great problem. Not all
labor turnover is undesirable. Some o f it is actually necessary if
a firm is to succeed. When a man is ready for promotion he should
have it for his own good and that of his employer. I f he moves to
another city, or develops illness that unfits him for a particular job,
he is involved in a type of turnover that is considered normal. That
turnover, however, caused by dissatisfaction with the job or the
employer or the wages or by bad methods of employment on the
part o f either the employer or the labor distributor, is undesirable
and costly to employer, to employed, and to society.
It has been estimated that the workers of the United States are
unemployed 60 out of the 300 working-days in a year. Remember,
we are here talking of averages. As we move to the left of the
curve of employment we travel into the realm of poverty, want, and
crime. Crimes are not committed by busy men. The busy man sings
at his work. Men in a breadline do not sing; nor do those hunting
jobs stop to organize a glee club. Herbert Hoover says: “ No waste
is greater than unemployment. No suffering is keener or more
fraught with despair than that due to inability to get jobs by those
who wish to work.”
Abnormal labor turnover is a variable quantity, and expensive at
all times. Men estimate the cost of employing and training a new
employee at from $20 to $250, depending on the skill required for
the job, the slow-up of the plant by the change, and the time re
quired to train the new employee. Anyone who has attempted to
become acquainted with a new job or to train a new employee knows
something of the problem. I shall not forget my own boyhood ex
periences in going to work for the first time in a grocery store.
Nine-tenths o f the things called for by customers, I did not know
where to locate. When, with the help of another clerk, I had lo
cated them, I did not know the prices. School superintendents tell
me that often an inexperienced teacher should pay her employers
instead o f drawing pay.
We do not know how much turnover there is in industry as a
whole. Doctor Slichter found that in 105 plants with 226,000
employees, that 225,000 new workers were employed in one year.
Turnover in these plants ranged from 8 to 348 per cent. Eleven
plants hired in a year more than twice as many workers as the
number on the pay roll at any one time. The New York factory
investigation found a turnover of 160 per cent. Kitson, in a recent
study of turnover in several States and cities, found turnover rang
ing from 50 to 100 per cent and that much of it was due to dissatis
faction resulting from a lack of guidance in selecting and preparing
for the position. Cases have been discovered where the turnover was
from 300 to 600 per cent. It is probable that the employers of
the country on the average hire nearly as many workers in a year
as they had on their pay rolls at the beginning of the year.
88852°-
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But what does the employment worker have to do with labor
turnover? He is always doing one of two things. He is either
reducing labor turnover or he is increasing it. I know you are
not wanting undeserved compliments, but I could dwell on many
employment agencies with which I deal that seem to have service
as their slogan. I might mention agencies for the placement of
college women, many times partly supported by private individuals,
or agencies for placing people in particular types o f work whose
ideals are high and whose service is outstanding.
I am moved, however, to speak of the way in which the private
placement office fails in its purpose and has brought so much vitu
peration and condemnation down on its head. I am moved to
mention the employment office which seems to have as its purpose
to keep labor moving rather than to stabilize it. Why? Because
o f the shekels that dribble in as the men and women pass through
the mill. Men prominent in the labor movement tell me that
laborers are actually sent to jobs that do not exist, and that the
misery caused by such crimes is pathetic. Usually agencies which
do such things are clever enough to send their clients far enough
away so that the carfare back to prosecute their deceivers is too
much. Persons in employment offices too often are persons who
like to be on the receiving end of a transaction. Our employment
offices, like humanity in general, are both good and bad.
On the face o f it, far too many of such agencies in this country are
notoriously inadequate and admittedly lukewarm in keeping the
worker employed. It is said that the distribution of labor can be
efficiently carried on only by an organization that has a monopoly
of the field. In no other way can there be a central clearing house
whose every demand for work can be brought in touch with its cor
responding demand for help. Under existing conditions, a man’s
opportunity to secure a desired kind of job stands less than a China
man’s chance of being realized, although there may exist a score of
requests for just such work, filed in as many different agencies!
On the face of it, it seems unsound in principle and unjustifiable
that a man with a need and a desire for work should be made to
pay for a chance to get that work. On the face of it, it would
seem that an employment agency run for profit will give neither the
employer nor the man wanting work nor society at large sound
service. W hy? Because the interests of the agency on the one hand
and of the employer and the employee and society on the other are
diametrically opposite. The interests of the latter demand steady
employment. With the fee-charging agency, the greater the turn
over, the larger the profits. The more jobs, the more dollars.
The Russell Sage Foundation a few years ago declared after a
5-year survey extending over 31 cities in the United States and
Canada, averaging good and bad years, that from 10 to 12 per cent
o f the populations o f these two countries were out of work all the
time. The report adds: “ Moreover, thousands of men and women
are being exploited through commercial employment agencies.”
During the year 1928 the factories in the United States employed
something like 800,000 fewer workers than they did in 1923.
Within the last five years the railroads of the country have dropped
200,000 employees. While this has been happening, many of them
have been reemployed in other industries, but the pain o f transition
E M P L O Y M E N T W ORKERS TO H AVE PROPER TR A IN IN G
105
(where transition to another job was made) must have been tre
mendous. Such figures would seem to take the employment problem
out of the individual class and make it a problem of the people as
a whole. There are many authorities in the employment field who
would destroy the private fee-charging agency completely. Most of
you are acquainted with the law passed in the State of Washington
in the year 1915, the purpose of which was to prohibit private em
ployment offices. The law was declared unconstitutional by the United
States Supreme Court. But, as was remarked above, the employment
office operated by the State itself—the public employment office— also
comes under the hammer. The Cincinnati Enquirer declares, “ Too
many bureaus, both public and private, are of questionable value,”
while the New York Journal of Commerce makes the statement,
“ Every public-spirited citizen would like to see some system estab
lished that would expand and improve our pitifully inadequate pub
lic employment service,” and continues: “ Private agencies with all
their abuses are performing a function needed in the absence of an
adequate public system. They should not be abolished until some
thing is provided to take their place.”
Recently the Consumers’ League of Cincinnati, after a study of
the problem, made the following report, which probably might have
been concerning the work in a large number of cities: 1. The exist
ing agencies failed to place a considerable per cent of their appli
cants; 2. The commercial agencies charge too high a fee, indulge in
practices detrimental to the interests of the worker, and increase
the employer’s cost by poor placement; 3. That junior placement
is inadequately handled; 4. That the city lacks a clearing agency
on employment conditions. The committee recommends a city ordi
nance to control employment practices, the limitation of the number
o f agencies to meet the actual needs of the community, and the
greatest possible development of the free State-city employment
service.
We have been discussing, with some diversion, the big problem of
the employment man, that o f labor turnover. What are some of
his other problems? One of these is undoubtedly the meeting of
the needs of those who come to him for his service. Not only is it
his problem to place people, but it is his business to place them in
such positions that they will be of the greatest value to themselves
and to their employers and, incidentally, to society at large. I need
not tell you employment people what problems come to you in your
daily work. You know much better than I do. You know that
thousands of those who come to you have had no vocational train
ing and are occupational u hoboes,” if we may use the term. You
know that many a time you send a man to a position and then won
der just what you have done for him. You probably know that
when the Government, at the instigation of President Roosevelt,
began to consider vocational training o f workers, it estimated that
there were 25,000,000 people in this country who had had no train
ing for the work they were doing. You probably know that about
that time, around the beginning of the second decade of the present
century, there was considerable activity toward vocational training.
Wisconsin passed the first compulsory part-time continuation school
law in 1911; the Smith-Lever law was passed in 1914, and the SmithHughes law was passed in 1917. To-day, to be sure, there is more
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SEV E N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETIN G ---- 1. A. P . E. S.
vocational training, but even now it is limited. Many of the folks
you handle have had no opportunity to obtain vocational training.
They are not to be blamed for their lack of training. Have you ever
thought that the term “ vocational guidance ” was hardly in exist
ence until about the beginning of the second decade of this century ?
The year 1908 is given, usually, as the official birthday of this great
movement.
People were just beginning during this first decade to let the
realization sink in that times had changed. They were just begin
ning to realize that it was harder to select an occupation from a
list o f 9,000 than it was in the days when one had only a few occu
pations from which to select. They were just beginning to realize
that, although it is not difficult to get somewhere when there is
only one road, it is quite different when one must pick from a large
number o f branching highways. This, then, is another outstanding
problem of the employment worker, that of vocational guidance and
vocational training. It is one thing to remove a man from the
class o f the unemployed. Probably few of us have personally ex
perienced the agony that faces the man who has a family which is
the apple of his eye, but must turn a deaf ear to their cries of hunger
and cold. It is another thing to remove a man from the class of
the unhappily employed. Vocational guidance is doing much to
begin at least the elimination of this class.
But a problem which we must not overlook is that of meeting
satisfactorily the needs of employers served. I was glad yesterday
to hear one o f the speakers emphasize the fact that employment
workers must be as much interested in the needs of the employer as
they are in the needs of the employees. The interests of the employer
and qf the employee can not be separated. The employment worker
must realize this and use every effort not only to meet the needs
of both, but also to create understanding and good will between
the two. This means that the employment man will be on the friend
liest terms with the employer and with employers’ associations. He
will keep himself informed as to the employers’ needs and their
desires. He will be constantly looking ahead and planning for
changes that are about to take place in connection with the employ
ment situation.
Finally, another problem of the employment man is to see that his
own business is kept on a sound basis. This may sound a bit selfish,
but I leave it to you to decide whether anyone has much respect
for any business or any man who is “ down at the heel.” It is his
business to present the claims of his office to employee and employer
in such a light that they will both come to him for service.. But his
real responsibility appears when they come. What he does must,
then, be real service.
It is evident that neither the public nor the private employment
agency is living up to its possibilities. It is also evident that since
the employment conference directed by Secretary Hoover in 1921 the
interest in the problem has been growing by leaps and bounds.
It is significant that the man who headed that conference and dis
played such keen interest in it is now at the head of the Nation and
that the problem has not abated a whit. We may expect President
Hoover to use his influence to solve this problem in the way most
E M P L O Y M E N T W ORKERS TO HAVE PROPER TR A IN IN G
107
approved by experts whom he may appoint. The bill introduced
in Congress by Senator Wagner of New York, providing for the
establishment of a Bureau o f Employment in the Department of
Labor, is another indication of the interest that the problem is
arousing.
The problem o f the public and the private employment man has
been presented to you. The picture has lights and shades. Let us
agree also that many of our private and public employment offices
are admirably run, and the blanket indictment contained in the
statements just made is not large enough to cover all of them.
But those for whom the shoe is a good fit need some very effective
medicine.
What should the qualifications be? Employment men should be
personnel men. Personnel men should be among the highest types
o f men to be found—well-met, personable, keen, thoroughly trained,
psychologists. They must be, for they are dealing .with a commodity
that is exceedingly difficult to understand and handle—human na
ture. Some one has said that the greatest gulf under heaven, the
most insuperable chasm, over which a bridge has never been built,
is that between the minds of two persons. How difficult it is for
us to read the thoughts of another person. A ship sailing in our
northern waters will make a wide circuit to steer clear of what ap
pears to the uninitiated as an insignificant chunk of floating ice.
But the captain o f that ship knows that eight-ninths o f that ice is
below the water’s surface. Only one-ninth of it is visible. A man’s
inner self is like the submerged part of an iceberg. We are expected
to understand it by observation of the one-ninth part visible to us.
You who have been engaged in placing men and women on jobs
at which they earn their living and achieve most of the enjoyment
or the comforts of their lives, have you ever stopped to think what
a real chasm there usually is between you and the person who
appears before you wanting employment?
Perhaps you are skilled in reading character; but if you are, you
are the exception rather than the rule. I am thinking o f the other
fellow, who is not so skilled, and who needs to know what is being
done to reveal the mind and character of one man to another. Not
a great deal has yet been done, but sufficient has been accomplished
to lower the threshold a little. Students of psychology, psychiatry,
and sociology have begun to gain some insight into what the other
fellow thinks and feels and dreams, and what are the motives which
most powerfully move men and shape their actions.
The strongest motive moving men is that of self-preservation.
Employment men, to be ahead of the game, must vitally interest
themselves in this phase o f man’s nature.
There was a time when men had little concern as to what they
should do. They tilled the soil, hunted in the woods, or fished in
the adjacent bodies of water. Then there came more division of
labor, and finally, about 200 years ago, the industrial revolution
came along and things began to be changed. They continued to
change rapidly until the middle of the nineteenth century, when the
great spurt in the machine age came and brought the employment
problem prominently to the front. Employers’ associations and
labor organizations both tried to solve the problem, but neither was
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SEVE N TE E N T H A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
able to do it. There was untold waste. Then, about the beginning
o f the twentieth century, came the personnel movement, led by
such men as Taylor, Gilbreth, and Harrison. Men began to study
the job and the man. They tried to fit the job to the man and the
man to the job. This movement has been growing in favor and
accomplishment; and, no doubt, to-day in this assembly there are
personnel men representing large industrial and mercantile
establishments, which have excellent scientific methods of select
ing and disposing of men, of hiring and firing. But these business
establishments have gone much further and have taken an interest
in training men, adjusting them until they find where they belong
and firing them only with such assistance as they can give them
in making their lives successful somewhere else.
I f one is to perform successfully the employment function, what
training must he have?
1. He must be. a psychologist and know something of mental
hygiene. He must be able to measure the intelligence and aptitudes
o i those seeking employment. This implies that he must be familiar
with the field of psychology, both general and applied, and must
be familiar with the field of tests, both of intelligence and aptitudes.
These are widely used in fitting people to jobs. To be sure, an
intelligence test is not a prognosis test, but it has been found that
a man of a certain grade of intelligence can do well in an occupa
tion of a certain grade, while he would be a failure at one requiring
a very much higher intelligence. The results of the Army intelli
gence tests on 1,750,000 men brought this out very clearly. Other
studies, such as that of Proctor at Stanford University, have brought
out the same facts. Aptitude tests, such as those in mechanical
ability, typing, music, car driving, etc., are frequently used by em
ployment people.
But besides the information that one can obtain through testing
he must have much information in other lines. He must know the
history of the person involved; what types of work he has been
engaged in before; his emotional make-up, whether he is calm and
deliberate or quick and impulsive, patient or impatient. In fact,
vocational guidance people to-day are paying much attention to the
emotional make-up of those they serve. They know that industry,
determination, self-control, and honesty go much further in many
cases than brilliance and special aptitudes.
2. The employment worker must also know the occupations in
which men engage; he should have special training in studying
occupations and should have read much about them. Moreover, he
should have had experience that has brought him in intimate per
sonal contact with industry. He should have had experience in sur
veying industries, in order that he may have a real knowledge of
what should be looked for in studying a vocation.
He must know the advantages and disadvantages, the income, the
opportunities for advancement, the special qualifications needed,
and the training desirable. I am thinking of the young woman
worker in a placement office who had been placing all the girls com
ing to her in factory work. Some very likely ones came and she
advised them not to go to work, but to go to business college and
train for stenography. They followed her advice. Later it was
E M P L O Y M E N T W ORKERS TO HAVE PROPER TR A IN IN G
109
discovered that not one of them had any education beyond the
eighth grade. Now it is well known by those acquainted with the
problem that no one should enter business college with less than a
high-school education. A personal experience will illustrate the
point. A young woman had been sent to me as a stenographer. I
learned that her preliminary education had been only that of the
eighth grade. She was very skillful at taking dictation, but was
sometimes unable to give it back to me. I recall dictating a letter
to a, friend named Lawson. In it I said, “ I was glad to hear from
the Lawson family.” It came back to me, 641 am glad to hear of
the loss of the family.”
S. The employment worker must be acquainted with methods of
occupational research. We are working in the dark a good deal of
the time in this respect. W c have little scientific work being done
on the problems of occupational research, including unemployment.
Who, if not the employment worker, will have interest enough to find
out what is the educational preparation of people on a certain type
of work? Who except a person so interested will care to spend his
time in finding out just how many workers there are in a city in the
various kinds of jobs, or how long people stay on a particular type
of job, or why people leave certain types of jobs. Who is so inter
ested in knowing how #fast the jobs of a city are changing and in
what direction they are changing; how salaries are changing and
in what direction the trend is. In short, the employment man must
be informed. He must be keen minded, scientific in his attitude
toward problems, and willing and able to obtain facts for himself.
May I suggest as a modest ideal for the employment worker the
follow ing:
The equivalent of graduation from a recognized college, with
emphasis on the following fields:
He must have adequate training in English; broad training in the
social sciences, especially in sociology, economics, psychology, both
general and applied, and mental hygiene; the field of testing. He
should have at least one general information course in the vocational
guidance or the personnel movement, followed by work in vocational
information and courses in vocational counseling. I have mentioned
the necessity for his being able to make surveys of the guidance field.
You will immediately say that this is an impossible task for many
workers. You will also say that this is theoretical. What one wants
is practical knowledge such as you men and women have had. That
is true, but his training should include laboratory work with just
such people as you, who know the field thoroughly from a practical
standpoint. This, however, does not minimize the importance of
theoretical training.
Let us agree that this is a stupendous task for many workers.
Then let us urge them strongly to take whatever training they can
in preparation for their work. Let us if possible professionalize
their attitudes toward the work by recommending reading that will
be worth while and by conferences like this one, even if on a much
smaller scale. Let us offer extension and summer courses in our
colleges which are properly equipped; let us bring about licensing
requirements that will say to these workers, “ We are willing for you
to perform the service you claim to desire to perform, but if you are
to deal with the thousands of people on this all-important phase o f
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their lives, then you must rapidly and certainly prepare yourselves
to do this work well.
One thing which I have left to the last has been left because it is
most important. We may get the technique of any job at our
finger tips. We may be very skillful in doing it, but more
important than this is the philosophy that lies behind that technique
and that training. In my plan for training employment workers
I have had in mind, not the apprentice who watches the artist and
borrows his technique so that he can rival him in skill—this is all
very nice but it is not what we want—but the man or woman who
not only has the technique but who knows the broad principles under
lying the things he does. He acts then according to these large
principles, building on a foundation which will stand regardless of
the storms that may assail him. Throw the other type of man on
his own and he soon begins to sink and cry for help to the man who
has the proper foundation.
It has become trite for us in America to say that one must have
education for anything worth while that he does. The work of the
employment man is of transcendent importance. He has the happi
ness o f the people in his hands. He is dealing with a commodity
that transcends all other materials in value. Can he afford to handle
it on any plane but the highest? Can he afford to keep it on the
apprentice plane? Must he not place it on the professional plane?
We all know that any man, no matter what he calls himself, is
not a real member of a profession unless his highest motive is service
to those with whom and for whom he works.
Too much employment work is mere job finding, with no real idea
o f what it means. It is a bit of clerical work which earns a living
for him who does it, but goes no further. What we need is a genuine
philosophy of the work which lays down its aims and suggests pro
cedure ; which considers placement not a mere isolated act, but a wellconsidered process, a continuing process, based on scientific facts and
guided by genuine human interest.
DISCUSSION
Chairman H o pw o o d . We wish to thank you, Mr. Davis, for your
talk. The importance of training, and the kind of training which
men in employment work should have, have certainly been very well
stated. We all realize now, I think, that education and training will
be necessary for the proper point of view and the attitude, the
sympathy, the understanding, that men should have in this kind of
work. Are there any who have anything to say in the way of
discussion ?
Mrs. M o r g a r t (Pennsylvania). In dealing with the secretarial
class—when I say that, I mean stenographers who are called secre
taries—employers invariably call us up and ask for what they want.
They say, “ I want a private secretary.” Yery well. They do not
want a private secretary at all; they want a stenographer. We have
to know that; we have to know the man and the type of business
he does, and whether he wants a stenographer or a private secretary.
Last week I placed a girl in a position in a judge’s office in Pitts
burgh at a salary of $175 a month. He wanted a private secretary.
The girl whose place she was taking had been there 12 years. This
E M P L O Y M E N T W ORKERS* TR A IN IN G — DISCUSSION
111
is what she told this new employee: “ The most important thing that
you have to do is to see that Judge So-and-So’s flower is watered.”
That sounds absurd to most everybody, but I have been a private
secretary myself. This happens to be one of the man’s idiosyncrasies.
He likes that flower. It is just as important to him as the fact that
his particular letters shall be sent out in the proper form. That is
understood; a private secretary does that sort of thing, otherwise
she wouldn’t be qualified.
When a man, who has a business employing hundreds of girls or
dozens o f girls, as the case may be, who are all grouped as they are
in one of these modern offices, calls up and asks us for a private
secretary, he is asking us because he wants a high-type girl. He
thinks that if he asks for a private secretary we will send him
a very high-type girl for $75 or $80 a month. O f course, we tell
him that we will be glad to fill the order, but we know that what
he wants is a good stenographer, because private secretaries do not
come for $75 and $80 a month. We choose a stenographer who
will fit into his office force. It is our business, because we visit
our clients, to know the type of office he has. One man—a very
prominent man in Pittsburgh—called up not so long ago and said he
wanted to interview three girls—that he wanted to see only three—
and he wanted us to select from the large group of people we were
calling in three girls from whom he might choose a private secre
tary. He wanted a stenographer; he did not want a private secre
tary at all, because there is no place in his organization for a private
secretary. He is general purchasing agent of a very large concern;
there are 30, 40, or 50 girls working in the office, and it would be
impossible for a private secretary to work in that office. He said
he wanted a girl that was not hard to look at. That is all right; I
do not blame him for that. He also said he wanted a very good
stenographer; he was particularly specific. He happened to be a
Lehigh,University graduate and very proud of it; he was also a
very efficient business man, cut and dried. I chose a group of girls,
and from that selection took three girls. One of them was a tall,
graceful girl, a good stenographer; the second girl was a good
stenographer, and a rather quiet type of g irl; the third was a little,
active, birdlike person; but none of them were hard to look at. I
sent one of them over at the time he specified, and in about an hour
he called me on the telephone and asked me if I thought he was Flo
Ziegfeld. The first girl that happened to arrive, unfortunately for
me, was the tall, willowy girl who4walked in a mincing manner.
Now we can not train the people that come into our office in the
manner they shall go. We tell them, as gracefully as we can, to
take the make-up off their faces; they think we are their friends and
take it kindly. We try never to send a girl who is badly dressed
into an office, if it can be corrected easily, and we try never to send
a girl into a business office who has make-up on that is very con
spicuous. It is a very simple matter for one girl to tell another girl
that she has too much rouge on her face. We do it every day, and I
do not know of one case where any person has had a comeback or
become angry or even been disagreeable about it.
W e people have to meet our problems in just that sort of manner.
We do the best we can. We call on the telephone 20, 30, or 40 girls
in a given time to please one man. He says he wants a girl that is
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not hard to look at, one that is a good stenographer; we get him
three good stenographers, none of them hard to look at, all different
heights and sizes, and then he wants to know whether we think he
is Flo Ziegfeld. The trouble was not with us at all, nor with the
stenographers. After the matter was sifted down, we found out
that he had gone over the head of the personnel director o f that
particular company. A ll new employees are supposed to go to the
personnel director and then to be sent to the department where wanted.
He called me direct. That was my error entirely, in taking this
official’s order. I should have sent the girls, irrespective o f his
request, to the personnel director, told them that they were to report
to him and then go on to that specific office. The fault was mine.
It was not with the girls and it was not really the man’s fault,
except that he was going to have his own way.
We folks are in for a lot of criticism; we get plenty of it, and
we are going to get more; but we have a hard job. We can not
remold human beings, and we can not remake them; we can not
teach them how to walk and talk. We can control them when they
are in our office, but when they are told to wait, they get nervous
and shaky. We are glad to get criticism, we need it. It jerks us
up and puts us on our toes. When criticising us as persons who inter
view prospective employees, do give us the credit of realizing that
we have humanity going through our office—many desperate people.
I f insurance companies ever thought that everybody in the United
States was insured, they would go out of business, but they know
that there is always another chance. A good stenographer or a
good private secretary will take care of herself. The law o f averages
is always with her. I f she knows her job, there is no question about
it at all. In our office we never say, “ We have no job for you.”
We say, “ So sorry your weren’t in this morning; we had a very
fine position; we are sure we will have one in to-morrow.” The
girl goes out with stamina and, in many cases, she gets herself a
job. We do not take credit for that at all, but we have given her
the impetus to get on.
And when criticizing us I wish you men would realize that we are
dealing with women—desperate women sometimes—women who have
lost their husbands; women who have never had a day’s training
in their lives, and who come to us and say they want to be
clerks. I f you knew what men required of clerks you would be
surprised. A clerk is almost a higher-type person than a private
secretary. Everybody who is unequipped wants to be a clerk. I do
not know where they get the idea that they can be file clerks. Any
man who has ever put in a filing system will tell you how impossible
that is. So in passing judgment upon us give us credit for this
that we are trying, that we have a tremendous problem, and that
we are dealing with desperate humanity. The equipped person, the
educated girl, even the young girl out of high school, has a sort
of poise. She knows she is going to get a job ; if she does not get
it here, she will get it some place else. The people approaching
us who are taking our energy, and those we have to give strength to,
are mothers with children dependent upon them, or girls with sisters
dependent upon them. So when you pass judgment on us, do not be
too harsh; just realize that we have a tough proposition.
E M P L O Y M E N T W ORKERS* TRA IN IN G — DISCUSSION
113
Professor D a v i s . I am very sorry if I appeared to be harsh in
criticism of employment workers. I think the lady who has just
spoken has reemphasized the thing that I suggested. Although I
am not an employment worker, I realize that you are dealing with
desperate humanity. I think I mentioned this in my address; and
that is the very best evidence that we need people of the highest
type, and with the highest training for that type of work. I did not
mean to include all o f you people in my condemnation, very largely,
o f the private agencies. But I think I did say that if anyone in
the public agencies wanted to put the shoe on that he was welcome
to do it. I do not want to give anything but great credit to the public
employment agencies, so far as I know them; but I can not but
emphasize that these very problems are problems that will be solved
only by the highest type of personnel workers.
Chairman H o pw o o d . The importance of having definitions for
S bs, or job names, is brought out, I think, in the question that Mrs.
orgart raised. The same problem exists in private industry. We
have in our own employment work calls for particular kinds of
persons, and in order to make the meaning clear, we have developed
job specifications for the titles. To cover the stenographers, we have
established four grades—junior stenographers, stenographers, senior
stenographers, and the secretarial assistant. And for each of those
titles we have job specifications which define in general terms, but
yet characterize, the work which we expect to go with that kind of a
job, the requirements all the way through. We insist upon the
employing officers using the terms as they are defined, and using the
names of the terms in our records. So that whenever a title is
referred to it has a specific meaning. It has a grade which carries
with it a rate range also. We attempt to coordinate those through
out the entire organization for the equivalent grades of work. I
realize, however, it is a greater task when you try to apply a thing
o f that kind broadly. What we mean by a stenographer is not the
same meaning that some one else has for the same thing. And,
broadly speaking, the usage of terms is very loose. We never know
what a job is by its title. We frequently get requests from concerns
all over the country as to comparative wages—rates of pay. We try
to comply with the requests, but we find that the meaning of the job
title to the other concern is not at all the same as it is to us. The
organization is different in different companies, and the division of
labor is entirely different, so that the job name in one place may
mean very little in another, and when we try to establish compari
sons, we find that those comparisons often have very little meaning.
So I thoroughly sympathize with you in your difficulties, and when
ever we call for help from outside, we try to explain definitely what
we mean.
Mr. L i p p a r t (Wisconsin). I came up here to listen, not to talk,
but sometimes in order to hear, you have to ask questions. We have
had presented to us a picture of the ideal placement clerk, the man
who can go through the obvious and know the real person under
neath the surface. I want to ask this question: I f there are 200
applicants for work a day, how many such clerks would be required
to do the work? You are speaking of the psychological side, and
for that reason I am asking you that question. How many persons
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would such a, person, such an expert, be able intelligently to analyze,
in order to know what the person really is? Is the question plain?
Professor D a v is . I think it is. I think you have reference to
some of the training that I suggested for these people in the line
of testing and so on. As I said at the beginning, I come to you
with the handicap of not being a worker in a public employment
agency. It is my belief, however, that the person who is trained in
these very essential features will have very much better capacity
for passing a swift judgment, and also that there are times when
you are anxious to place someone, and times when you want to get
further knowledge of this person. Am I right?
Is it possible at
any time in a public employment agency to do such a thing as to
give a person an aptitude test?
Mr. L i p p a r t . The energy required really to size up a strange
person is very great. I f you were able to apply your scientific test
in a quick analysis, and that can be done, you would find that, with
out the checking up of the person to know that your analysis was
correct, the number of persons upon whom you could pass that
kind of a judgment intelligently wTould be very limited in the course
o f a day. The man who can work for four hours on that line of work
has practically exhausted his nervous energy. And from that time
he is probably worse in his judgment of people than the man who
is not so trained. Is that an answer to your question ?
Professor D a v i s . I think it is.
Mr. L i p p a r t . I think if you were to pass anywhere from 5 to 10
people o f easy accessibility as to their real character in a day, you
would do wonderful work.
Professor D a v i s . I knowTthat the placement worker, or junior, in
many places does a good deal of this type of work. The information
which comes in helps to cover all of those things, but in many cases
it does not.
Now I am not saying that every placement worker ought to be a
practitioner in the giving of tests. I do not believe that all of them
would be able to do that every day, by any means. But I do think
that such an arrangement as they have in Vienna, where they have
a psychological expert connected with the placement office, is very
desirable. I do not believe that I can talk about training of place
ment workers without emphasizing that very important matter of
studying the characteristics of those people.
Chairman H o pw o o d . I might add to that, that in our company we
had an analysis made for one occupation, operators of substations.
We had Doctor Vitelis from the University of Pennsylvania, a
psychologist, make this analysis for us, and he spent over a year
in developing this data for one occupation. Just to get that experi
ence took six to eight months. After that, to apply the statistical
methods necessary to develop the standards and tests that were neces
sary for examinations has taken a number of months more. How
ever, we feel that it has paid to do it, because it has been possible to
establish a definite relationship between the qualifications of the
worker as shown in his average of grades in the test and his accident
record and his proficiency record in service. Doctor Vitelis has been
able to show that there is a direct relationship between accidents and
E M P L O Y M E N T W ORKERS* TRAINING-----DISCUSSION
115
the grades in these tests, and the management of the company feels
that the cost of the work is well justified in this one occupation. But
that, of course, is only one occupation in our organization. We have
about 750 to 800 job specifications that represent occupations, so
that it is not an easy thing to get tests which will show specific things
without going into a great deal of research. However, the work is
highly important and ought to be carried on as far as it is possible
to do it. Are there any other comments now ?
Mrs. B i n n s . In reference to the tests of Doctor Vitelis, may I
mention that at the psychological clinics at the university and at
Doctor Odd’s clinic, we have the results o f tests conducted by the
social welfare groups. I f those records and reports were available
to our employment office, to our public offices and to our standard
fee-charging offices—that is, the ones that are long established—I
believe it would eliminate the necessity of the interviewer having to
do so much o f the testing.
In social case work with vocational guidance we use all those
agencies. We have the case history brought before us, and on that
we build—that is, the vocational guidance person has had, of course,
a lot of experience in tests, but does not attempt to give the tests
there. She knows the outside world, the industrial world, and
knows the possible outlets. She has her diagnosis. Knowing the
present situation in the industrial world, she tries to fit the case in.
The modern social worker in vocational lines does not try to give the
psychological or any other of those tests at the time of interviewing,
because that is all past history. I f a plan could be worked out so
that the schools worked more closely with our employment offices
o f all sorts, we would then have a great fund of information to
build on. The schools and colleges are supposed to educate for
future livelihood. Yet to the great outside world, or to anybody
but a social case worker, those records are lost; they are finished;
the files are closed. They are never available in industry—in place
ment. I f in some way we could bridge the gap, so that those records
could become available in the money-producing field, I believe it
would help in placement; certainly it would help the applicant and
would decidedly help us who are trying to do placement work.
Mrs. M o r g a r t . May I answer that question? In Pittsburgh we
have the Carnegie Institute of Technology and the University of
Pittsburgh. Perhaps 10 days ago the vice president of the Strohnick Co. (I do not think there is any breach of confidence in men
tioning names, as it is a matter of public record; we report it to
Harrisburg, so it is public property) called me from Elwood City
and said that he would be in the city at a certain time; that he
wanted a private secretary, to act as a private secretary for six
months and to be available at that time for promotion to assistant
to the manager. He gave me very little time to work on the case.
O f course we have in our files a number of specialized people whom
we have interviewed before, and whom we keep in certain groups
so that we can quickly get in touch with them. But we are down
town, and might have to get somebody’s mother on the telephone
and so on. So instead of doing that I called the University of
Pittsburgh. I got its employment bureau because I know how the
University of Pittsburgh trains its people. I told exactly what
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we wanted—the type of girl—because I happened to know this
man personally. The work was of such a nature that it would
require a person with considerably more education than an ordinary
school education. I also called Carnegie Tech. and got Mr. Beatty’s
assistant there. I told her it was a hurry call; this man was com
ing in from another city, and he was coming after our State closing
hours. I remained and asked these girls to come in. Three of them
came in. The University of Pittsburgh and Carnegie Tech. cleared
their files for me; they sent me three girls. This vice president
came in, and asked me what I thought about them. Because they
believe we know or are trying to please them—and that is what we
are trying to do—such people always ask what we think about the
applicants. I had previously interviewed them very swiftly. Each
one o f those girls was quite capable and competent. After an hour
and a half—and these girls had to wait that time—the vice presi
dent said, “ Mrs. Morgart, I am in a peculiar predicament— these
are all such fine girls, I am going to tell you a business secret. We
are going to put an additional plant in the city of Pittsburgh and
enlarge our place in Elwood City, and I am so well pleased with
your selection that I am going to employ each one of these girls.”
He is paying a salary of $165 to one of them, $150 to another, and
the youngest of these three girls begins at $110.
Professor D a v i s . Might I say that Mrs. Binns mentioned the thing
that the vocational guidance people are recommending strongly to
educators— a complete history, of the pupils ? I f education is any
thing, it is something that goes on and on, and we shall make a great
mistake if we do not do exactly the thing you are suggesting.
Now another thing. Fundamentally, a vocational counselor
should use case material, but I do feel that the training I have sug
gested is something that person needs; the person in the office will not
use a great deal of that training, though he may be called upon occa
sionally to do it, but he needs to know the field.
[Meeting adjourned.]
THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 1929— EVENING SESSION
Chairman, Walter J. Lloyd, Director Bureau of Employment of Pennsylvania
Chairman L loyd . Many weeks ago, one of the first speakers I com
municated with to address this meeting to-night was the Hon. James
J. Davis, Secretary of the United States Department of Labor.
Within 48 hours I received a reply from Mr. Davis, in which he said
that he would not miss coming here unless some unforeseen incident
should come up in Washington that would detain him there. That
incident has come up, but he has sent us a representative from his
department, the distinguished solicitor of the department, Judge
Theodore G. Risley, and it is my pleasure at this time to present to
you, as the representative of the Hon. James J. Davis, the Hon.
Judge Risley.
Public E m ploym ent Services and W hat T hey Can
A ccom plish
By
T heod ore
G.
R is le y ,
Solicitor United States Department of Labor
I like to have the privilege of meeting an audience of people who
are sincerely interested in human welfare. It impresses my mind,
every time I meet a gathering like this, that there is more respect
and more regard for the golden rule to-day than there ever has been
in all history. There never has been a time when so many men and
women have realized the pleasure and the duty of trying to help
and uplift their fellow men as there are to-day. And the line of
work that you are engaged in is one of tremendous importance. You
are dealing with one of the most stubborn and persistent prob
lems that beset the responsible authorities o f any government—the
problem o f unemployment.
As you know, we have in this country, as well as in other coun
tries, people who believe that nearly every human evil can be regu
lated by law. There is a peculiar condition existing in this country
to-day, and in making this statement I am quoting from a very
brilliant lawyer, who has just written a remarkable book. He says,
“ The two outstanding facts in the United States to-day are our
prosperity and our crime.” Now that is not according to history,
for history, through all the ages, has shown us that crime is usually
the most prevalent when there is economic discord, when men are
out of employment, when there is want and idleness and labor
wanders through the streets in rags. So it seems very strange that
with this unparalleled prosperity there should also be coupled with
it this crime wave that has swept over the country. It is a study
that a lot of people are taking up as they never have done before.
This same man makes this remark: “ The supreme ideals of the
United States to-day are law and order; yet we have more law than
117
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any civilized country in the world and more crime than any country
in the world.” But we can not cure all these things by law. Our
people are not the only people in the world that get together and
clamor for law— we want a law for this, and we want a law for that.
They do the same thing in England. The British Parliament has
the same trouble; but there is this distinction between English laws
and our laws. In England and in all the other countries, when they
pass a law they enforce it. A man said the other day in Illinois,
“ I have no objection to the eighteenth amendment at all; what I
object to is their attempting to enforce the thing.” That is just the
trouble with a great many of our laws—they are not enforced.
We have laws relating to employment. A good many faithful
men and women have striven earnestly to attain the object sought
to be achieved by the enactment of those laws. For a time there
were a great manjr people who paid very little attention; they seemed
not to realize its importance. Now we are beginning to realize the
tremendous importance, not only of the Federal law with reference
to employment, but the fact that that law shall be made active, that
it shall be made useful, and that it shall be enlarged to take in the
whole scope of unemployment.
The first unemployment bureau that was ever established was
established in England in 1885. Denmark and Germany and
Switzerland and Sweden have gone before us in many things in
relation to labor problems, because they have been confronted with
them. In countries where the population is overcrowded, where
they have to tread upon each other’s heels to get a job, they were
brought to an acute and practical realization of these problems long
before we were in this country of great opportunities and great privi
leges. Our Federal employment act was really enacted and made
very active in 1918, and it was for the purpose, not of finding em
ployment for the unemployed, but to find laborers to carry on and
make war munitions with which to carry on the Great War. That
was the first object. And while that object was in view it was
strictly regarded. Then, when the war was closed, we began to
realize that there was another side to the situation. We realized
that we had nearly 5,000,000 men demobilized, and when we with
drew 7,500,000 men, women, and children from the industries that
were making mechanical devices for the slaughter of human beings,
we realized that we had a great problem of unemployment on our
hands. That was the first great recession we had in this country.
We had nearly 5,000,000 unemployed people who had to be turned
back into the avenues of civil life. We had to find new employment
for them all. Fortunately, because of our wonderful readjustments
the matter was much easier than it was for the Old World. These
people just disappeared into the ranks of labor like the snow falls
and melts. A distinguished English socialist and economist visiting
this country in 1925 said that the rapidity with which America
reabsorbed and reemploved her people after the war was the greatest
political phenomenon oi the modern world.
It was my privilege to deliver the Labor Day address in Pitts
burgh in 1921, and a distinguished Member of Congress from your
own State who spoke on that occasion made this statement: “ We
will not permit any reduction of war-time wages. It will not be
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done.” I said to myself, “ I hope you are right, but I believe you
are visionary.” We have not only maintained the war scale of
wages, but we have increased it vastly. We did not realize, between
the winter o f 1921 and the spring of 1928, that a cycle of unemploy
ment was on, that there were several million men out of employment
in this country. Then we began to study this problem as we never
had before. I recollect I had the honor of discussing this subject
at Johns Hopkins University a little over a year ago.
Now we are beginning to realize that these efforts must be made
permanent. They should not be spasmodic, because we know that
unless we plan for the future we will have cycles of unemployment;
they will come just as certain as floods and fires come. Your great
work and your great job is to plan for the future, to plan such eco
nomic schemes and policies as will take care of the cycles of labor and
unemployment when these crises come.
Gibbons, in his remarkable book, The History of Industry in
England, makes this statement: “ The history of industry is the
history o f civilization.” I f there had been no industry, you and I
would probably be living in caves and clothed in the skins of wild
beasts to-day. The industrial and the economic history of every
country has touched every phase of that country’s life.
Walpole says, in his Land of Free Soil, “ The progress of man
kind is written in its tools.” The first man in the Stone Age who
made a flint or a stone hatchet made a wonderful invention for his
time. Then the fellow who made the bone needle, so he could sew
skins together and wear clothes, made a wonderful invention. You
and I who pick up a hammer to-day or sew with a needle think little
about it, and yet they are two of the fundamental inventions that
made civilization possible, and I sometimes wonder what we would
do to-day if we had no hammers or needles.
So, again, with the first human industry. Only a little more than
a hundred years ago nearly all machines were made of wood. The
chief instrument of operation was the human hand, and the motive
power was the human muscle. Then steam was discovered, and was
utilized by applying it to machines. When they got that, people
ceased making machines of wood and made them of iron. Then
they wanted coal as fuel for these machines, and that brought about
the development of the two greatest modern industries, the iron
industry and the coal industry. These inventions fundamentally
changed the four great industries of mankind—manufacturing, min
ing, transportation, and agriculture. So the world has moved on
until we have become now, in the latest generation, the greatest
manufacturing country in the world. In 1927, our manufactured
products aggregated the astounding sum of $62,720,000,000. They
were produced by 196,666 factories, which paid out for material
$46,000,000,000 of money. This is a wonderful achievement. These
machines and these great inventions have made it possible for us to
live to-day in a better manner than kings lived a hundred years ago.
The farmers too realize the importance of invention. A hundred
years ago farmers threshed their wheat with flails and a man would
flail out 4 bushels a day. In our great western wheat fields to-day,
with our combination harvesters and threshers, we thresh 200
38852°— 31--------9
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bushels per man per day. To-day five men laboring in our great
wheat fields can produce enough wheat to supply bread for 1,500
people.
In 1800, 97 per cent of the people of the United States lived on
the farms. To-day only one-third of our laborers are engaged
in agriculture, and we have too many there now. The farmers do
not need laborers. People ask me when I go about the country,
“ Why don’t they send these unemployed laborers to the farms ? ”
Send them to the farm ? Why, they would only be in the w ay; they
would not know what to do when they got there. The farmers are
producing more stuff now than they can sell; that is the trouble;
so that this proposition is no remedy.
We take up another question along this line. This is the machine
age of the world, and America is the greatest machine-using coun
try of the world. A little over 40 years ago the director o f the
United States Patent Office resigned, and in a letter he gave these
profound reasons. He said, “ I want to get a job where there is some
outlook to it. My job will soon be reduced to almost nothing, be
cause all the great fundamental inventions have been made. Inven
tors can do nothing more in the future than to make improvements
on some o f the great standard inventions we have now.” There have
been more inventions patented in the United States Patent Office
since then than in all the history of the world before his time. We
were just on the eve of the electric light and the telephone and the
automobile, and other things, when he resigned. This is the view
people then had. The records show that there are more inventions
being made to-day than at any time in human history, and they are
going to grow and multiply just as long as the wits o f men and men’s
keenness and inventive genius multiply. So we must prepare for
it; we must look out for it. There are all kinds of labor-saving
machines coming on the market right along. Some women in a
needle factory, whose business was to inspect the needles made, and
who by skill could inspect 2,000 needles a day, went back one day
and found a little automatic machine sitting there in their place,
which inspected 27,500 needles a day. So you see a good many of
these women lost their jobs; their skill was superseded. What are
they going to do now ? That was their trade.
It has not been a hundred years since the laborers o f England
and this country were very jealous of all labor-saving machines.
They stood in fear o f them. They believed that it meant starvation
for them.
There are two kinds of inventions. There is one type o f invention
that creates a demand for labor because it creates new wants and
new needs, new demands, and new desires upon the part of people,
and that is what we want. We want to multiply our needs, we want
to multiply our wants, in order to create greater industries and to
give opportunity to more labor. Another thing; we not only want
to employ all labor, but we want to employ it at a wage which will
enable it to buy back the products it produces. The man who em
ploys labor must have a market to sell his products. So the laboring
man must get a wage which will enable him to buy back the products
he has made; because 86 per cent o f all the products o f our manufac
turers are consumed by the laboring people and their families.
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When the Constitution was signed over here in Independence Hall
there were only about 100 distinct vocations in life in this country;
to-day, we have 2,000 basic vocations, and they have 10,000 sub
sidiary vocations. See how the thing is growing and expanding.
Why, our children will follow professions built upon inventions
that have not yet been wrested from the secrets of nature, and you
and I can not even dream o f them. I f some prophet told us they
would be made and our children would follow trades developed by
them, we would say he was crazy, that such a thing could not happen.
But it will happen, just like lots of other things have happened.
I want to give you an illustration—take the automobile. In 1895
in Poughkeepsie, N. Y., 25 of what were thought to be the best
automobiles were put in a race. The distance was 25 miles. The
chairman o f the committee o f judges was Chauncey M. Depew.
Well, the automobiles started on the race, and only two of them
arrived at the goal. Then people said, “ This is just a toy; it won’t
amount to anything.” But let us see what this toy has done since
1895. We have spent $68,000,000,000 on automobiles; the industry
to-day is employing 3,500,000 people and is paying out over $6,000,000,000 in wages. The automobile has created 150 subsidiary voca
tions, which are employing men and women all over this country.
Take next the moving picture* I do not know how many people
are engaged in that, but I understand that about a million alto
gether are making a living for themselves and their families.
Next comes the radio. All these inventions have created new
wants; they have created new vocations; they have given employ
ment to millions o f men, at greater pay and shorter hours and better
living conditions. I sometimes wonder what would have been the
condition of this country in the last three or four years if it had not
been for those great, basic industries built on those new inventions.
On the other hand, there is the type of machine that takes away
employment because it is a labor-saving machine. O f course we
must have labor-saving machines. I f it had not been for these
labor-saving machines, you and I could not be living in the homes
we live in to-day; we could not have electric lights, automobiles,
and all these things. Why ? Because the manufacturers have been
able to produce them at a price that enables anybody to get them.
The machine has brought comfort; it has brought luxury; it has
brought a better condition of living. Mr. Hoke says that it would
require 3,000,000,000 men, working 10 hours a day, to produce
what is produced every day in the United States by machinery.
Let me illustrate it in another way. It would require 20 men,
working 10 hours a day, to produce all that I consume and eat and
wear and enjoy every day. The estimate o f a great economist and
statistician is that if the average American had to depend upon hand
labor (of course it could not be done, but I am measuring hand
power, man power), every man would have to have 20 slaves working
for him in order to live the way we do to-day.
When the sewing machine was invented, seamstresses both in
this country and England almost shrieked with horror. They said,
“ We will starve to death.” Now that did release and displace
hundreds and thousands of seamstresses, just as lots of other inven
tions have done. Until 30 years ago, we used to make glass in
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almost the same way it was made when the Egyptians were building
the pyramids. We thought there was no other way to make it. But
inventive genius devised automatic glass-making machines. You
have seen these water carboys which you have m your office. It
used to take an expert glass blower a day to make 20 of them. Some
fellow out in Illinois invented an automatic machine that makes
8,000 of them a day. That displaced thousands of laborers in the
glass factories. Glass workers used to produce only 55 square feet
of window glass an hour. Now they make 3,000 square feet an
hour. That machine displaced lots of them, yet some compensation
came with it. When glass was thereby greatly reduced in cost,
people used more glass; and to-day we use more glass in our out
buildings than we did in our houses and office buildings in the past.
Why ? Because it is made so much cheaper. That took up a great
deal of the slack—thousands
went into the business o f
packing and shipping it—but ii
;ake up all of it.
Thousands of laborers have been displaced and we have to wait
until a readjustment comes, but thousands and tens of thousands
o f them are not in a condition to wait. They have their families
to support; they have to be cared fo r ; they have to have employment,
or they have to be cared for by the public. In February o f 1922, I
was to deliver an address at Attleboro, the great silver manufactur
ing city. I was in Boston, and the mayor called up and said, “ We
can not have any meeting here to-night; every public building is
closed. Hundreds and hundreds of people are milling up and down
the streets because they have no employment.” Do you recollect
that spring? It was a fearful time. I saw all those people there.
Can you realize the situation of a man with a clear brain, a cunning
hand, a stout heart, and a willing mind, who is seeking and trying
to get employment, who tramps the streets everywhere, day after
day, and can not find anything to do? He does not want to steal,
and he goes home and sits down at his table, and his little children
look him in the face with tears in their eyes, and say, “ Papa, papa,
why don’t you bring home some bread ” ? Can you realize the
effect that such a situation has on the mind and heart of an honest
man? It is a terrible situation. It is just that kind of a situation
that it is your duty and your purpose to avoid, and so arrange that
these things shall not happen in the future.
These are the great problems that we are striving to solve. Many
remedies have been suggested, and they have all had their objections,
but I think we are convinced in this country now, despite all objec
tions, despite all criticisms and selfish interests, that the one supreme
remedy—you can not have a complete remedy for this situation o f
unemployment—is to create an organization, a great, united, and
coordinated system of bureaus to work out the problems o f unem
ployment in this country, and abundantly supply it with funds.
That is the great problem.
Other countries have tried it; they have been trying it for years.
Germany and Sweden and Switzerland went through the experi
mental stage on this question; then they got down to business. Now
they have systematized it thoroughly. There is no more constructive
and analytical mind in the world than the German mind. Germany
not only has exchanges in every little village, but even goes so far
as to furnish transportation. The man out of a job is linked up with
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the job that wants the man in very short order over there. Not only
that, but when he comes into one of those labor exchange offices, if
his clothes are not good and he does not make a good appearance,
they will send him to a tailor and have his clothes fixed up, and if
his whiskers and hair are too long, they will send him to a barber,
and then send him some place to get a good lunch. They understand
the psychological effect on a man of a good personal appearance
when he goes to meet his prospective employer.
You know what we are doing in the schools to-day. Nearly every
school board in this country wants to see the teacher. A young
lady came to me the other day and wanted to get a job. I said,
“ You had better go and see this man. You are good-looking and
you will make a far better impression than any letter I can write,
because he will not know how handsome and sweet you are just by
reading a letter. So you see him in person.” We are counting
personality; we are weighing and estimating the influence of per
sonality, especially on the young mind, as we never did before.
We have a thoroughgoing, scientific body of men engaged in this
work in the United States to-day, and I have delivered a good many
addresses over this country on the subject of placement of labor.
There has also grown up enough literature—scientific literature;
thorough, reliable literature— on these questions to make a library.
I have been surprised at the unanimity of sentiment among the great
thinkers and writers and the great employers of labor all over
this country on this question. When the President called his Con
ference on Unemployment in 1921, nearly every great organization
that means anything nowadays indorsed it and realized what it
meant.
These employment bureaus are being extended, and they should
be extended further in the United States. This is no temporary,
makeshift affair—this bureau o f employment. You are building not
only for people who are out of employment to-day, but you are
building for their children and for their grandchildren. Every time
you give one of these men out of employment a job, you put money
in his pocket, and he can go to the grocer and buy more groceries
and go to the clothing store and buy more clothes. By doing
this you are building up prosperity for the American people. It
is a great work you are doing, a splendid work. There is no other
agency that has been tried that can perform the work as efficiently
and expeditiously and can facilitate the mobility of labor as quickly
as your organization.
This is a big country. A man may be out of employment up
in Maine, but there might be a job for him in Oregon or some other
State. We want to develop the mobility of labor; that is, the rapid
ity and speed with which we can transport it from one place to
another. Men—thousands of them—walk by places day after day
where men are wanted—men who do the same kind of service that
is wanted and do not know the jobs are there. So the great object
is to bring the man and the job into contact.
There is one thing we may just as well face. We can not develop
a condition in this country where all labor will be employed all the
time. That is impossible. Statistics show that we have about
1,500,000 people out of employment all the time. That is due largely
to seasonal occupations, to the turnover of labor, to sickness and
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vacation, so there will always be a large unit that will be unemployed.
But we can, I think, by long planning—planning public works, build
ings, canals, roads, and other things, to be worked on when labor is
slack and when there is unemployment—largely overcome, as has
been done in many European countries, this great problem of
unemployment.
Take the condition in England to-day. There are 200,000 skilled
mechanics who were recently out o f employment. With their fami
lies, they make more than a million people who are dependent upon
public dole or publia charity to live. They can not emigrate to the
United States, as they used to, in unlimited numbers. They do not
want to go to other countries, as they are not suited to them. And
what is true in England is true to a large extent in all other Euro
pean countries. We used to receive them at the rate of more than a
million a year. The highest number was 1,087,451, and from 1902
till 1912 6,000,000 foreign-born people and their children found
employment in the industries of the United States. When the W orld
W ar closed we knew what to expect from the Old World. We knew
that that war left behind the army of the impoverished and the
pauperized, and the army of the maimed and physically wrecked for
life, an army in whose bodies had been sown the seeds of mortal
disease. We knew that those wrecks of the greatest war in all his
tory, the victims of that decimating struggle, were turning their eyes
toward the United States, longing and hoping to come here, as the
last hope on earth to reconstruct their fortunes.
In addressing the Twentieth Century Club in Boston in 1922, I
made the statement that I believed there were 10,000,000 people in
Europe who would come to the United States if they could get here,
and subsequent developments, I think, have verified that statement.
There are now 2,300,000 people in Europe on the waiting list to get
visas to come to the United States. Some of them will have to live
25 or 30 years to get them.
We looked at the situation after the World War—all these millions
o f unemployed in the United States—and we said the time had come
when we would have to restrict immigration to the United States,
because if we left the bars down, hordes would come in from the
Old W orld and accept employment at reduced wages, undermine
hundreds and hundreds of well-paid American laborers, and reduce
the conditions o f labor in this country to a parallel with that of the
submerged millions of toilers of the Old World. We did not do
this out of malice nor out of national or racial prejudice. We did it
to carry out the ideals of our fathers and to maintain the splendid
living conditions of the American laborer, so that he can buy what
the American people produce and sell. We are not hard-hearted;
we are not a people of resentment. We are the most charitable
people in all the world. Do you know that we give more to charity
in the United States every year than all the rest of the world beside ?
Even to those nations to which the immigration law applies we
send by public and private charity and through individual gifts
hundreds o f millions of dollars every year.
This country is our heritage and we realized that the time had
come—and statistics show it—that if we had left the bars down
one more generation, Anglo-Saxon racial supremacy in the United
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States would have been submerged, and we would have been a people
without national identity—a nation of mongrels. And this restric
tion was in the interest of American labor—that American labor
might be employed; that these cycles of unemployment which caused
thousands of men, women, and children to sit at empty tables,
clothed in rags, might not return to this country any more. In
my judgment that was one o f the most vital economic and social laws
put upon the statute books of this country in 75 years. It was put
there to prevent just what you are laboring to prevent now—unem
ployment among the American people.
What are the causes of unemployment ? I will sketch them hastily.
There have been over 200,000 laborers a year leaving the American
farm during the last eight years; 1,600,000 laboring men have left
our farms in 10 years. And yet this astounding fact appears, that
every year the farmers have been producing more and more farm
products. Still some people say, “ Send the unemployed to the
farms.” They simply do not understand the economic facts of the
situation; that is why.
Here is another tremendous fact. Do you know that in the United
States to-day there are approximately 11,000,000 woman wage
earners? In Washington alone we have 40,000 woman employees
and 13,000 of them are married women. Carrie Chapman Catt said
in a public address a year or two ago that if this thing kept up, in
another generation 50 per cent of all the married women in the
United States would become wage earners.
I addressed a meeting out in Illinois a few weeks ago, when there
was present the superintendent of one of the big railroads of this
country. When I was through, he said, “ May I ask you a question?”
I said, “ Certainly.” He said, “ You spoke about the number of
married women who were wage earners in the citv of Washington.
I want to tell you something. We have had before our board of
directors that very question. Several hundred women and their
husbands are employed in our company, and their husbands are
making enough money to support the family comfortably and save
something besides, while on the other hand, every day we turn away
hundreds of men seeking employment who have families, but we
have no employment for them. We have about decided that we will
discharge the women in our employ whose husbands are making good
wages, and give employment to the husbands who have no way what
ever o f supporting their families.” That is a pretty serious ques
tion; it is a question that is worthy o f consideration. W hy were
they going to do it? Why, they were planning to relieve unem
ployment. The object was the same object that you have here to
night; that was the purpose of it.
We can not think for a moment of limiting the inventive genius
of mankind, nor curtailing the output of the great machines which
we use, which have made life so happy and sweet, and have given us
such wonderful opportunities, but we must prepare to place and keep
placed those whom the machines displace, because humanity is above
all things, and the man is above the machine. Some fellow invented
a machine awhile back which, with two men operating it, moves as
much pig iron in a day as 168 men handled before. I could give you
instance after instance. But you know what the illustration means.
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A man who has spent three or four years as an apprentice, and
then toiled for years and years to perfect his trade, and when he is
50 or 60 years o i age, finds himself let out and his employment gone,
is in a serious situation in life. I do not believe in this theory of
scrapping men who are 40, 45, or 50, because I am not yet ready to
be scrapped myself. I had the pleasure, two years ago this summer,
o f delivering an address at the Ohio State Exposition held at Cleve
land, and it did a very peculiar and a very nice thing. It offered
gold medals, together with very valuable prizes—some of them
worth $200 apiece—to the three oldest men in point of service
in any one industry in the State o f Ohio. And it was my pleasure at
the close of my address to have those three stalwarts—rugged, splen
did men—stand before me, and to pin those medals on the lapels
o f their coats. The first one was a German. He was 75 years of
age, and had worked 53 years with one concern, and he had no more
idea of being scrapped or giving up his job than I have. Then they
called up another one, an Englishman, 75 years of age, straight and
square and fine looking; he had served 51 years. And then they
called up a Dane; he was 70, and had served 50 years. I looked
over those three splendid men, thought of the years of service they
had put in and how proud they were of it, and how much they had
done for other people. Think of taking those men at that time of
life and scrapping them or turning them ou t!
They may have had a competence saved up. There is one thing
that haunts 90 per cent of all the grown men and women in this and
every other country after they get past 50. Do you know what that
is ? It is the fear of having to meet the winter of old age without
any preparation for their care. What we want is to feel that we can
employ all available labor, but we want to employ it at such periods
as will give it leisure, vacations, and opportunities for study and
advancement.
I want to tell you one thing that distinguishes American laborers
from the laborers of the rest of the world, and why the American
laborer has advanced and progressed. It is because of his oppor
tunity for education. There are twice as many sons and daughters
o f laboring men attending our schools of higher learning to-day as
there are children of men in the professions in this country. Ameri
can labor has ideals. That is why it is able to sit down at the coun
cil table with employers to discuss problems and to bring about
reconciliation; and the employer realizes, that in the depths of the
mines, in the green, cool forest, before the flaming forges and the
whirring spindles, and out on the foam-crested seas, it is busy hands
o f toil that create all the wealth and maintain the prosperity and
the glory of this Republic of ours. And that condition we want to
perpetuate. We want to bring to American laboring men the real
ization o f their ideals. Why, it is ideals that have made civilization.
It was ideals that inspired Raphael to paint the Sistine Madonna and
Michael Angelo to carve the bust of Moses. It was ideals that in
spired Milton to write Paradise Lost; it was ideals that inspired
Thomas Jefferson to write the Declaration of Independence and
Lincoln to deliver his immortal Gettysburg address. The ideal of
the laboring people has been that they should have decent places to
work and not be required to work 12 and 15 hours a day; that they
were a real part and had a real part in this great country of ours.
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It has lifted them until to-day America is proud of the character and
the reputation, the intellectuality and the initiative, of the American
laboring man. That is why, with his efficiency, he produces twice
as much as an English laborer, 4 times as much as a Frenchman, and
30 times as much as a Chinaman.
We have brought together the ends of the earth in this country.
We have 96 dialects and languages spoken in this great Republic
of ours. I f these men obey the laws of this country, we should give
them fair opportunity and not discriminate against them; because
this is the land where hate should die, this is the land where strife
should cease. No feuds o f faith, no spleen of race, should try be
neath our flag to find a place.
We are living in a better day than mankind has ever known before.
There is not a stenographer m the city of Philadelphia who could
live for a week in such gloomy, dismal quarters as Mary, Queen of
Scots, occupied in her palace, and you have not a toiler here who
can not go out, and with the wages of one day buy a better library
than Shakespeare had. Oh, do not listen to the chilling doctrines of
these pessimists who go up and down the country saying that the
world is getting worse, that there is more selfishness in the world
then ever before. That is not true. There is more kindliness, there
are more schools, more churches, more hospitals, more great phil
anthropic institutions, than there ever were before. Why, just think
of the wonderful Rockefeller Foundation. In 10 years it has ex
pended $77,000,000 in its research work to cure disease and relieve
the suffering o f humanity. The Carnegie Institute is spending
$10,000,000 a year in 10 lines o f research work, and the General
Electric Co., is spending $1,000,000 a year in research electric work,
and the great Agricultural Department of the United States is
spending $10,000,000 a year in research work.
What do I mean by research work? I mean the searching out of
those secrets of nature that may be harnessed and utilized for your
comfort and my comfort and the uplift of humanity. No; do not
listen to the wail of the pessimist; but let me give you this message
in closing:
There is an army that never was Usted;
It carries no banners; it wears no crest,
But split into a thousand battalions,
It's breaking the road for the rest.
[A rising vote of thanks was tendered Judge Risley for his
address.]
[Chairman Lloyd read to the convention and discussed some of the
propaganda against pending legislation in Pennsylvania, referred to
by Charles A. Waters in a previous session, and suggested that the
fee-charging employment agencies be invited to attend the next
morning’s session and present their side of the case. A motion was
made, seconded, and carried that the discussion of Chairman Lloyd’s
remarks be made the matter o f business to-morrow in the open forum
and that an invitation be issued through the newspapers to the feecharging agencies to be present.]
[Meeting adjourned.]
FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 27, 1929— MORNING SESSION
Chairman, Russell J. Eldridge, State Director of Employment of New Jersey
[The chairman of the committee on credentials reported that there
were 98 accredited delegates to the convention. The report was
accepted.]
[It was specified in the official program that the open-forum dis
cussions would not be made a part of the record unless authorized
by vote of the convention. No such action having been taken, these
discussions are omitted.]
[As no representative of private employment agencies appeared
in response to the invitation to present their case to the convention,
which was issued through the press, and as no one responded to
the chairman’s question as to whether any delegate or visitor wished
to have the privilege of the floor, the meeting adjourned.]
128
FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 27, 1929— AFTERNOON SESSION
Chairman, H. C. Hudson, Vice President International Association of Public Employment
Services
Business Meeting
[The chairman made a short informal report of his activities as
vice president o f the association, and then called on Mr. Seiple for
his report as secretary-treasurer.]
REPORT OF SECRETARY
It is my pleasure herewith to submit for your approval and consideration a
brief report of the activities of your secretary for the period following the
last previous business session of this association, together with some suggestions
and recommendations which seem to be worthy of deliberation or note.
The Cleveland convention
The tabulation of the attendance records at the Cleveland conference one
year ago shows that there were 110 registered delegates in good standing in
attendance at the convention, also that 244 guests were registered as attending
one or more sessions of the conference, making the total regular attendance
at convention sessions 354. To the best of our recollection and information
this is the largest attendance of both delegates and guests ever registered at
a convention of this association.
Cleveland convention program well accepted
The official program of the Cleveland conference was carried through ex
actly as printed. Every speaker listed for addresses on major subjects was in
attendance and delivered their addresses on the day and at the hour specified
in the program. There is on file in the secretary’s office a considerable amount
of correspondence from delegates indicating their satisfaction and approval of
the program arrangements and of the fact that this program was carried
through definitely and consistently as outlined. All of this leads us to believe
that convention programs should be carefully worked out so as to carry the
greatest possible appeal to all delegates as covering subjects of timely impor
tance in the work of the public employment service.
Convention a local asset
It was demonstrated in Cleveland that the city in which the convention is
held is possibly the greatest recipient of benefit derived from such conference.
There is no doubt that the publicity attendant on the convention, together with
the presence in the city of men of outstanding ability to deliver lectures before
the association and the opportunity for attendance at convention sessions by
many persons engaged, or otherwise interested, in employment or unemploy
129
130
SEV E N TE E N T H A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A . P . E. S.
ment problems, lends impetus to the work of the local public employment
service. Such were the results of the Cleveland conference as indicated by the
fact that the local public employment office has been able to establish a record
in 1929 in advance of the record of any previous year in its history.
Correspondence with association members
In November following the Cleveland convention your secretary prepared a
general letter to the membership of the association outlining briefly the results
of the Cleveland conference, followed by a similar letter in January inclosing
printed copies of the address of Dr. John B. Andrews on the subject of FeeCharging Agencies. This pamphlet also included some statistics and recom
mendations regarding the passage of appropriate legislation to provide regu
lation by the States of the activities of fee-charging employment agencies. This
letter and pamphlet were also addressed to the governors of the various States
and included a suggestion that efforts be made to secure the approval of legis
latures then in session for an appropriation to provide traveling expenses of
delegates to the convention of this association. As a direct result of this cor
respondence with State governors, we have evidence that at least three States
did provide such legislation and their delegates are here present for the first
time. A third general letter was forwarded to the membership from the secre
tary’s office in August, providing information as to the exact dates of the
convention, hotel headquarters, and such other information as was available
at that time. During the year covered by this report the secretary’s office
mailed out over 2,300 communications relative to association business. When
we add to this the vast amount of correspondence going forward directly from
the office of our convention chairman, which we are advised by Mr. Lloyd
reached beyond 30,000 communications, it will be apparent that this conven
tion was well advertised.
Results of correspondence
As a further result of this correspondence we have evidence of a greatly
increased interest on the part of governors and other State and Provincial
officials which is directly reflected in the attendance at this convention, which
has listed among attending delegates representatives from 23 States of the
United States and 4 Provinces and the Dominion Government of Canada. It is
also evident that the Federal Government of the United States and Canada,
particularly through the Departments of Labor, are more than ever aware
of the value of these annual conventions and in sympathy with the purposes
of this association. The interest being shown by governmental authorities in
the problem of unemployment and the establishment of age limits in industry
is undoubtedly due in some measure to the consideration of these problems,
which for several years past have been given much attention at association
conferences and would be even more pronounced were we able generally to
distribute printed copies of some of the splendid addresses delivered on these
subjects.
Handicaps to progress
The promotion of the advancement of this association has been seriously
handicapped because of a lack of a closer official association of organization
officers. Under our present system it seems almost impossible to get our
REPORT OF SECRETARY
131
officers together except at the annual conventions. Therefore the business
of the association is often seriously neglected during the intervening periods,
reading to a confusion, and oftentimes a duplication, of effort which does
not lend itself to any very great convincing argument for convention attend
ance. In turn, the officers are seriously handicapped by the inability to have
our convention proceedings promptly printed and distributed to the member
ship while the interest in the convention is still apparent and at the time
the subjects discussed were possibly of most vital importance. The third
handicap to which I would like to refer is the lack of proper financial support
to provide for an adequate distribution of literature on subjects of interest
to this association and its members.
Recommendations
In view of the fact just previously referred to, your secretary desires to
respectfully offer the following recommendations for consideration:
1. Some provision for a closer cooperation of members of the official family
and a more definite arrangement for responsibility in connection with the
arranging and distribution of convention programs. It nright be well to
make official provision for the appointment by the president of a convention
chairman, particularly in cases where neither the president nor secretary
reside in the city where the convention is being held, this convention chairman
to assume general responsibility for convention arrangements, in all cases with
the approval of the president. Such chairman might well act also as a member
of the program committee, of which the president would be chairman, with
such other members as the president may wish to appoint. This would
assure the arrangements of a comprehensive program which would be satis
factory to officials in the convention city and also provide subjects of interest
to all delegates.
2. Efforts should be made to provide some definite assurance that reports
of convention proceedings should be promptly printed and distributed follow
ing each convention. The proceedings of the Cleveland convention have not
as yet been printed, although an exact and verbatim copy in perfect condition
was forwarded to the president within a few weeks after the conclusion of
the Cleveland conference. This same report was transmitted to the Depart
ment of Labor in Washington at an early date for printing. However, explana
tions from the Government Printing Office indicate that this printing has been
delayed, due to the special session of Congress, which required the first atten
tion of the Printing Office. We are inclined to accept this explanation as
reasonable, but it does not remove the handicap, and if some assurance can not
be secured that future proceedings can be printed for distribution within a
reasonable time, we most certainly must consider having them printed in some
other way, in order that the value of convention discussions may be available
to the many delegates who are interested and have paid their dues and there
fore are certainly entitled to such information while it is still valuable.
I might say that we had registered at the Cleveland convention 110 delegates.
The number actually in attendance at the conference was probably no greater
than here in Philadelphia. However, the membership dues were paid by only 99
this year. In spite of the fact that we have carried on intensively, many people
who paid their dues last year in anticipation of promptly receiving a copy of
the printed proceedings that they might, through reading this report, partici
pate in a measure in our deliberations and profit by the discussions that were
132
SEV E N TE E N T H A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
had, did not receive them. They felt that they had paid their $2 membership
dues and up to this point have received absolutely nothing in return. I believe
that they are right in their conclusion, that if they are going to pay their
membership dues and not be able to attend the convention, that they are
certainly entitled to a printed copy of the proceedings of the convention at an
early date.
3. If this association is to continue to advance as possibilities afford there
must be some more definite arrangements made for financing the necessary
operations. During the past two years, which covers my term as secretary, the
officials of the State of Ohio have permitted me to use the time of my own
secretaries for correspondence and the distribution of information relative to
the association. Most of this work has been done on State time, and while
we are pleased to do this so long as it does not interfere with our regular
duties, a further development of association work would make it necessary for
us to hire help occasionally. Our present assets do not provide for such
assistance, as the $2 membership dues provide the only source of income and
generally are paid only by those who actually attend the convention. I there
fore recommend the appointment of a permanent committee on finance to study
and report on a concrete method of financing at the 1930 convention.
I might say this, before leaving that recommendation, that there was avail
able at times this year information which would have been valuable to the
members had I had someone who could have taken the time to have it mimeo
graphed or multigraphed and distributed to you. I did not feel, however, that
I could ask the State of Ohio or the city of Cleveland to allow me to use the
time of one or two of my girls for possibly a week or 10 days to multigraph
a lengthy report when we had other work to do. I believe there is much
information that would be helpful to the delegates, to the members, and also
information that should be distributed to other sources as emanating from this
association—copies of resolutions and so forth, which might be forwarded to
representative bodies at a time when they are discussing or concerned about
something with which we have dealt, going on record that we have covered
that situation, and what our recommendations are. However, that can not
be done without some further financial support to provide at least the $100
or $200 that we may need to hire a girl for a week or two at a time to do that.
4. The progress and development of public employment offices has too long
been left to the dictates of political expediency, and therefore have not always
been provided in locations of greatest necessity. The only conceivable way in
which further advancement in this service can be obtained is through the de
mand of the general public and particularly of the employing classes. Therefore
it seems that this association should make a greater effort for attendance at
conventions by employers, employment managers, employee representatives, and
others interested in employment and economic problems, in order that we may
have a better understanding with these people as to the advantages and possi
bilities of the public employment service. A large number of such repre
sentatives were present at the Cleveland conference and were duly impressed.
Again at this convention we find a number of such representatives, not only
from Pennsylvania, but from other States where governors have been influenced
to appoint personal representatives. I therefore recommend that some action
be taken to arrange and provide a definite plan for encouraging the attendance
of representatives from industry and labor.
May I say that Mr. Hoover, before leaving this convention, came to me
and expressed his very decided pleasure that he had been able to attend this
REPORT OF SECRETARY
133
conference, assuring me that he had certainly broadened his views with regard
to the public employment service. He explained that previously he had con
fined his ideas of this service largely to the lowest type, almost, of common
labor, and never dreamed that we went into serious consideration of problems
of higher type applicants, executives, professional people, and so forth. He
was rather amazed at the thoroughness with which this convention attacked
those problems. Now, if that was the reaction of Mr. Hoover, from the Arm
strong Cork Co. of this city, it certainly would be the reaction of a great
number of other representatives of employment and industry were they present.
I am not suggesting just what the method may be, but I think we are on the
right track in doing everything we can to attract their attention to these
conferences, to get them there if possible.
Before concluding this report, your secretary wishes personally and officially
to express the greatest appreciation to your convention chairman, Mr. Walter J.
Lloyd, for his wonderful work in making such elaborate arrangements for every
accommodation and courtesy that could possibly be shown to the attending
delegates, also for his willing assumption of responsibility 4or most of the
convention details, which would ordinarily fall more or less upon the secre
tary of the association.
Probably none of you realize as I do the enthusiasm and thoroughness with
which Mr. Lloyd has approached this task. He has given weeks of valuable
time, thereby allowing his own work to accumulate, and I desire to assure him
of my most sincere appreciation for all he has done.
Conclusion
In concluding this report, I should like to suggest that the time has probably
now arisen for us to consider the establishment of an executive secretaryship
whereby the business of this association may be given constant attention and
efforts made to assist the various States and Provinces in promoting adequate
legislation for the advancement of this service. I realize that on first thought
this may seem impossible, but believe that if given proper attention it may be
worked out along lines similar to the National Safety Council and other organi
zations having their beginning in much the same manner as this association
has been started.
I realize that this is a big thought. When Mr. Lloyd spoke of it to me at
first I sat back in amazement. Mr. Eldridge was present, and I believe he
felt the same as I did about it, but the more Mr. Lloyd talked about it and
the more I thought about it, the more I believed that it could be done. I believe
on my part that an executive secretary of this association, coming into Cleve
land and staying with me for one week, could raise a couple of thousand dollars.
I believe there are folks in the city of Cleveland who have the money and can
be sold on the idea of an executive secretaryship, permanently located, handling
the affairs of this association, going into every State where efforts are being
made to increase appropriations, working with the local people in that State,
going in possibly when new governors come into office, and saying, “ Now
this man at the head of your employment service is a wonderful man. I repre
sent the International Association of Public Employment Services, and I know
of his work. And without presumption on my part, I hope, honorable Gover
nor, that before any thought is given to removing this man that you will
provide assurance that his successor will be equally capable.” Possibly he can
not say more; but even that would help.
134
SE VEN TEEN TH A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A. P . E . S.
I believe that one of the things that is hurting the employment service in the
United States more than any other thing is the constant change in administra
tion. Men who have been in the service for several years, possibly just become
acquainted with its requirements and its possibilities, have devised some plan
for its improvement, only to find that about the time they are ready to strike
the blow and accomplish something they are politely told they are not needed
any more. The new man comes in and spends two more years becoming
acquainted with the situation, and the result continues the same as before.
That, of course, is only one thing that an executive secretaryship could provide.
We had last night a very vivid picture drawn for us by Mr. Lloyd of how
another association had been able almost to flood this State with what appears
to my mind to be the most insidious propaganda that I have heard of in con
nection with a problem of a similar nature. And yet there was no one to say
nay to them. Certainly individual persons did go before the legislative com
missions and fight the battle, and they succeeded. But it was almost a super
human effort and under great difficulties. If we had our own officers, our
own board, our own man on the job, he would have been here immediately to
counteract that by appropriate propaganda of his own. And he could have
been in Ohio, he could have been in Iowa, he could have been in New York
State, offering assistance through his capability—and he should be a capable
man. If we can not hire a man that is capable, then we should not create an
executive secretaryship. With his capabilities, he could go into any State, and
because of his international position, national at least, he could say and do
things that representatives from local States sometimes can not do.
I could offer some suggestions as to how the thing might be financed, but I
do not think this is the time to do it. I think that consideration should be given
to this thought so that some action may be taken at the next convention. It
may be that you folks would consider it seriously enough even now that you
would want a committee appointed to talk with some foundation as to whether
it might start the thing off for us until such time as we could get it under way,
with the assurance that if at some future date we were able to we would
return their original contribution.
I also believe that the time will come when that executive secretaryship and
the funds it would work up would be ample, where States were unable to be
represented through their own finances, to pay the transportation of at least
one delegate from every State. If we start it and it works, there will be no
question about finances.
Hoping that this report is accepted in the spirit in which it is submitted and
as an evidence of my sincere desire to promote the advancement of this associa
tion and of the development of the public employment service in general, I
respectfully submit it for whatever consideration it may deserve.
B. C. Seiple,
Secretary.
[On motion, the secretary’s report was accepted and concurred in,
and its recommendations were referred to the incoming officers. The
chairman then called for the report of the treasurer.]
SE VE N TEEN TH A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A. P . E . S.
135
REPOET OF TREASURER
As treasurer of the International Association of Public Employment Services,
I wish to render herewith the following report for the period from September
20, 1928, to September 27, 1929 :
Balance in treasury September 20, 1928____________________ $195.66
Receipts from membership dues____________________________ 198.00
Total assests------------------------------------------------------------------------ $393.66
During the period covered by this report the following obligations
were incurred and paid:
A. L. Urick, president, for retyping proceedings of sixteenth
annual convention_______________________________________
28.43
B . C. Seiple, secretary, railroad fare and expenses to
Philadelphia attending executive committee meeting_____
59.93
The Prompt Printing & Publishing Co., for stationery_______
36. 50
Postage----------------------------------------------------------------------------40. 00
Telephone and telegrams__________________________________
8.40
Total disbursements_____________________ '-----------------------------
173.26
Balance in treasury September 27, 1929____________________________ 220.40
Respectfully submitted.
B. C. S eiple,
Treasurer.
[On motion, the treasurer’s report was accepted.]
Chairman H udson. The printed program provides for reports of
five committees. There is also a report of a committee appointed last
year, and I am going to ask for that first, because it would really seem
to have precedence—the committee on uniform forms, records, and
procedure of which Mr. C. J. Boyd, of Chicago, is chairman.
REPORT OF COMMITTEE ON UNIFORM FORMS, RECORDS, AND PROCEDURE
Your committee on uniform forms, records, and procedure recommends that
an invitation be issued by this association, through its secretary, to the com
mittee on governmental labor statistics of the American Statistical Association
to take under advisement the problems involved in the question of forms,
records, and procedure and make recommendation to this association.
It is further recommended that your committee be authorized and in
structed to confer and cooperate in the fullest manner and to represent this
association for purposes of conference with the committee of the American
Statistical Association, and to use all practicable means to have a report
in definite form ready to submit to. the next annual meeting of this association.
C h a r le s J. Boyd, Chairman.
A. L ou ise M u rp h y.
R u sse l l E ldridge.
[The report was adopted.]
Chairman H udson. I now call for the report of the committee on
resolutions, of which Mr. John S. B. Davie is chairman.
38852°— 31------- 10
136
SEVENTEENTH a n n u a l MEETING-----1. A. P. E.
s.
REPORT OF COMMITTEE ON RESOLUTIONS
1. Resolved, That the delegates of the seventeenth annual convention, Inter
national Association of Public Employment Services, extend to Hon. Mayor
Mackey and the city of Philadelphia their sincere thanks for the cordial
reception given them. And be it further
Resolved, That we extend our thanks to the Philadelphia Chamber of Com
merce, the Philadelphia Rapid Transit Co., and the Hotel Benjamin Franklin
for the many courtesies and favors shown us during our sojourn in Philadel
phia. [Adopted.]
2. Resolved, That we extend to the press of Philadelphia our thanks for
the publicity given by the papers to discussions presented at our convention.
[Adopted.]
3. Resolved, That the Hon. Walter J. Lloyd be instructed to convey to the
theatrical agencies and the entertainers our sincere thanks for the fine
entertainment during our stay in Philadelphia. [Adopted.]
4. Whereas through the efforts of the Hon. Walter J. Lloyd, the seventeenth
annual convention was brought to Philadelphia; and
Whereas through the efforts of Mr. Lloyd and his committee, the seventeenth
annual convention has been one of the most successful conventions held by
the association: Be it
Resolved, That we extend a hearty vote of thanks to Mr. Lloyd and his
committee and commend Mr. Lloyd for the progress and efficiency shown in
the work of his department in Pennsylvania. [Adopted.]
5. Resolved, That the incoming executive board be instructed to take up the
advisability of putting into effect some of the recommendations made in the
paper read by Sidney W. Wilcox, of the University of Pittsburgh. [Adopted.]
6. Whereas A. L. Urick, of Des Moines, the president of this association for
the past two years, was unable to attend this convention; and
Whereas he had always given much to build up the association: Be it
Resolved, That the seventeenth annual convention extend to Brother Urick
a hearty vote of thanks for his long and faithful service; and be it further
Resolved, That the secretary of this association be instructed to send to
Brother Urick a copy of this resolution and express the regrets of the entire
membership at his inability to attend. [Adopted.]
[The report as a whole was also adopted and the committee dis
charged with thanks for the service rendered.]
[The report of the auditing committee, of which Major Burke
was chairman, that the committee had gone carefully over and ap
proved the books of the treasurer, was accepted, and the committee
discharged.]
[The report of the committee on time and place of meeting, of
which Mrs. M. L. West was chairman, reported that the association
had received invitations for the convention in 1930 from Indian
apolis, Ind., Denver, Colo., San Francisco, Calif., Toronto, Canada,
New York City, N. Y., Washington, D. C., and Cincinnati, Ohio;
but in view of the precedent which has been established that at least
every fourth year the convention should be held in Canada, the
committee recommended that the next convention of the association be
held in Toronto, Canada, some time during the month o f September,
1930. The report was adopted.]
Chairman H udson. The committee on ways and means, of which
Mr. Lippart is chairman, is invited to report at this time.
SE VE N TE E N T H A N N U A L M EETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
137
REPORT OF COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS
The committee on ways and means makes the following suggestions to the
association.
That a membership drive be inaugurated immediately, and that the annual
dues for membership be adjusted as follows: Dues to be $1 per year for
membership and an additional registration fee of $2 per member attending the
annual conventions.
H a r r y L ip part, Chairman.
Miss L i l l i a n E. T apen.
G eorge E . G il l .
B. C.
S eiple.
[The report of the committee on ways and means and its recom
mendations were adopted after some discussion.]
[The report of the nominating committee was presented and
adopted. The list of officers will be found on page v.]
[Meeting adjourned.]
INTERNATIONALASSOCIATIONOF PUBLICEMPLOYMENT SERVICES
EIGHTEENTH ANNUAL MEETING
TORONTO, CANADA, SEPTEMBER 9-12, 1930
139
OFFICERS, 1930-31
President.—H. C. Hudson, Toronto, Ontario.
Past president.—R. A. Kigg, Ottawa, Ontario.
First vice president,—John S. B. Davie, Concord, N. H.
Second vice president.—Francis I. Jones, Washington, D. C.
Third vice president.—Emanuel Koveleski, Rochester, N. Y.
Secretary-treasurer.—B. C. Seiple, Cleveland, Ohio.
Executive committee.—Mrs. M. L. West, Richmond, Ya.; J. A. Bowman, Win
nipeg, Canada; Harry Lippart, Milwaukee, W is.; S. S. Riddle, Harrisburg,
Pa.; George F. Miles, Columbus, Ohio.
Convention city: Cincinnati, Ohio, September, 1931.
ANNUAL MEETINGS AND OFFICERS OF THE INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF PUBLIC
EMPLOYMENT SERVICES
Annual meeting
No.
President
Date
Dec. 19, 20,1913Sept. 24-26, 1914.
July 1, 2,1915...
July 20, 21,1916Sept. 20, 21,1917.
Sept. 19-21,1918.
Oct. 14,15,1919. .
Sept. 20-22, 1920Sept. 7-9,1921...
Sept. 11-13,1922.
Sept. 4-7, 1923...
May 19-23, 1924.
Sept. 15-17, 1925Sept. 16-18, 1926..
Oct. 25-28, 1927-
Chicago, HI............
Indianapolis, In d .Detroit, Mich.........
Buffalo, N. Y _____
Milwaukee, W is ...
Cleveland, Ohio__
Washington, D. C .
Ottawa, Canada.—
Buffalo, N. Y _____
Washington, D. C_
Toronto, Canada...
Chicago, 111............
Rochester, N. Y ___
Montreal, Canada..
Detroit, Mich____
Fred C. Croxton...
W. F. Hennessy...
Charles B. Barnes.
.do.
___ d o - - ..................
John B. Densmore.
Bryce M. Stewart..
do
do..
E. J. Henning...
___ do..................
Charles J. Boyd..
R. A. Rigg.........
___ do........ .........
A. L. Urick.........
Sept. 18-21,1928Sept. 24-27, 1929..
Sept. 9-12,1930...
Cleveland, Ohio___
Philadelphia, Pa__
Toronto, Canada...
....... do________
------ do------------H. C. Hudson..
Secretary-treasurer
Place
W. M . Leiserson.
Do.
Do.
G. P. Berner.
H. J. Beckerle.
Wilbur F. Maxwell.
Richard A. Flinn.
Do.
Do.
Marion C. Findlay.
Do.
Richard A. Flinn.
Do.
Mary Stewart.
Mrs. M. L. West (tem
porary).
B .C . Seiple.
Do.
Do.
141
Contents
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 9, 1930— MORNING SESSION
Chairman, H. C. Hudson, President International Association of Public Employ
ment Services
President’s address, by H. C. Hudson, president International Association
of Public Employment Services____________________________________
Appointment of convention committees_______________________________
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 9, 1930—AFTERNOON SESSION
Chairman, John S. B. Davie, Commissioner of Labor of New Hampshire
The field of employment, by Barney Cohen, director Illinois Department of
Labor________ *__________________________________________________
Discussion_____________________________________________________
Harry Lippart, of Wisconsin.
Fritz Kaufmann, of New York.
Barney Cohen, of Illinois.
Mr. Bond.
Leo Cunningham, of Ontario.
Mr. Wands.
H. H. Bothe, of New Jersey.
Emanuel Koveleski, of New York.
R. A. Rigg, of Ontario.
Problem of the older wage earner, by Roswell F. Phelps, assistant director
United States Employment Service, Boston, Mass___________________
Discussion_____________________________________________________
George E. Gill, of Indiana.
R. A. Rigg, of Ontario.
Leo Cunningham, of Ontario.
Roswell F. Phelps, of Massachusetts.
Emanuel Koveleski, of New York.
H. C. Hudson, of Onatrio.
W. S. Dobbs, of Ontario.
J. D. Williams, of Minnesota.
Harry Lippart, of Wisconsin.
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 10, 1930— MORNING SESSION
Chairman, B. C. Seiple, Superintendent State-City Employment Service,
Cleveland, Ohio
How the Federal or Dominion employment service can cooperate with the
State or Provincial employment service, by R. A. Rigg, director of
Employment Service, Department of Labor of Canada______________
Development of a Federal public employment system in the United States,
by Fred C. Croxton, special assistant Department of Industrial Rela
tions of Ohio_____________________________________________________
Discussion______________________________ - ___________________
Fritz Kaufmann, of New York.
R. A. Rigg, of Ontario.
D. A. Hausmann, of New York.
Fred K. Hoehler, of Ohio.
J. D. Williams, of Minnesota.
Will T. Blake, of Ohio.
Summary of address by J. H. H. Ballantyne, Deputy Minister of Labor of
Ontario, at luncheon tendered delegates____________________________
142
CONTENTS
143
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 10, 1930— AFTERNOON SESSION
Chairman, Emanuel Koveleski, Examiner United States Employment Service,
Rochester, N. Y.
Page
The Cincinnati plan for unemployment relief, by Fred K. Hoehler, director
Department of Public Welfare, Cincinnati, Ohio____________________
Discussion_____________________________________________________
David Luten, of Indiana.
Fred K. Hoehler, of Ohio.
J. Neish, of Manitoba.
Barney Cohen, of Illinois.
Fred C. Croxton, of Ohio.
Expansion of public employment activities during emergencies or depres
sions, by Miss Frances Perkins, Industrial Commissioner of New York--
169
173
174
THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 11, 1930— MORNING SESSION
Chairman, Leo Cunningham, Superintendent Employment Service of Canada,
St. Catharine’s, Ontario
New publicity methods for the public employment service, by S. S. Riddle,
director bureau of employment, Pennsylvania Department of Labor
and Industry____________________________________________________
Discussion_____________________________________________________
Fritz Kaufmann, of New York.
O. C. Short, of Maryland.
H. H. Bothe, of New Jersey.
Fred C. Croxton, of Ohio.
R. A. Rigg, of Ontario.
George E. Gill, of Indiana.
H. C. Hudson, of Ontario.
Mrs. Lewis.
Roswell F. Phelps, of Massachusetts.
182
187
Business Session. Chairman, H. C. Hudson, President International Association
of Public Employment Services
Report of the committee on resolutions_______________________________
190
THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 11, 1930— AFTERNOON SESSION
Chairman, S. S. Riddle, Director Bureau of Employment, Pennsylvania Depart
ment of Labor and Industry
How the employment service can best serve the employers of labor, by
J. G. Clark, store superintendent Robert Simpson Co. (Ltd.), of Toronto,
Canada-------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------Discussion_____________________________________________________
O. C. Short, of Maryland.
W. S. Dobbs, of Ontario.
H. H. Bothe, of New Jersey.
Leo Cunningham, of Ontario.
D. A. Hausmann, of New York.
J. G. Clark, of Ontario.
Some aspects of vocational education in relation to employment, by Dr.
G. E. Reamen, superintendent Training School for Boys", Bowmanville,
Ontario__________________________________________________________
Discussion_____________________________________________________
Mr. Ross.
Dr. G. E. Reaman, of Ontario.
191
194
195
196
144
E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L M EETING-----1. A . P . E . S.
FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 12, 1930— MORNING SESSION
Chairman, Harry Lippart, Superintendent Milwaukee Employment Office
Page
Placement of handicapped workers, by John Aubel Kratz, chief voca
tional rehabilitation, Federal Board for Vocational Education________
Discussion_____________________________________________________
H. H. Bothe, of New Jersey.
O. C. Short, of Maryland.
John Aubel Kratz, of Washington, D. C.
Mr. Mundy, of Ontario.
The attitude of the local superintendent, by Walter A. Selkirk, superin
tendent Employment Service of Canada, Hamilton, Ontario__________
Business Session.
198
201
202
Chairman, H. C. Hudson, President International Association
of Public Employment Services
Report of the secretary_____________________________________________ __ 208
Report of the treasurer_____________________________________________ __ 209
Report of committee on resolutions__________________________________ __ 210
Interim report of committee on govermental labor statistics of the Ameri
can Statistical Association on an investigation of employment office
procedure______________________________________________ :------------------211
PROCEEDINGS OF THE EIGHTEENTH ANNUAL MEETING OF THE INTERNA
TIONAL ASSOCIATION OF PUBLIC EMPLOYMENT SERVICES, TORONTO,
CANADA, SEPTEMBER 9-12,1930
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 9, 1930— MORNING SESSION
Chairman, H. C. Hudson, President International Association of Public Employment Agencies
The eighteenth annual meeting of the International Association
o f Public Employment Services convened at the Royal York Hotel,
Toronto, Ontario, on September 9, President H. C. Hudson presiding.
The opening invocation was delivered by the Rev. Salem Bland, D. D.,
and after introductory remarks by Mr. Hudson, the address of wel
come for the Province of Ontario was given by Mr. J. H. H.
Ballantyne, deputy minister, on behalf of the Minister of Labor of
Ontario.
In the absence of the mayor, who was unable to attend, Controller
W. D. Robbins extended the greetings of the city of Toronto.
The president responded and called on the Hon. W. A. McKenzie,
Minister of Labor for the Province of British Columbia, to address
the meeting. Mr. McKenzie extended greetings from his Province.
The chairman responded and thanked the speakers on behalf of the
visiting delegates.
•
President’s Address
By H. C.
H udson,
President International Association of Public Employment
Services
We are here to discuss the problem of unemployment, a problem
which all of us engaged in employment service work are confronted
with at the present time. Probably there are more men and women
unemployed in Canada and the United States this year than in any
year since 1920-21. Public attention is focused on unemployment
as never before, and a great many people now realize the fact that
it is not the fault of the man himself that he is out of work. It is
being realized that his problem concerns the community in that he is
not a consumer of goods when his earnings cease.
It is a coincidence that at this very time a special session of Parlia
ment has been convened to consider ways and means of meeting this
condition o f unemployment, and will have before it the recommenda
tions of the Employment Service Council which were recently sub
mitted by that body and which are as follows:
145
146
E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L M EETING ---- 1. A. P . E. S.
R e s o lu tio n s P asse d a t E m p lo y m e n t Service C o u n c il M e e tin g H e ld in
O i t a w a, A u g u s t 21 and 22, 1930
(1) That as a means of immediate relief of unemployment Federal, Pro
vincial, and municipal authorities in their respective spheres should commence
or continue works of a permanent nature, such as building and construction,
including highways, bridges, wharves, railway terminals, subways, railway
crossings, needed public buildings, and other public improvements, as well
as repairs to and maintenance of public highways and properties.
(2) That in view of the situation now existing there is a joint responsibility
on the part of the municipal, Federal, and Provincial authorities to contribute
to the cost of relief work measures to alleviate the unemployment situation.
(3) That the Federal, Provincial, and municipal authorities should use their
influence with private corporations and individuals to carry on contemplated
construction and maintenance works forthwith to alleviate unemployment.
(4) That all governing bodies, so far as practicable, should anticipate their
requirements and place advance orders for all lines of supplies and equipment,
such as wearing apparel, tents, blankets, etc., same to be of Canadian
production.
(5) That in so far as possible, in such works as may be developed to meet
the present situation, preference in placement should be given to men with
family responsibilities, in close proximity to the communities wherein their
families are located.
(6) That when employers of labor are compelled to resort to part-time opera
tions the available work should be distributed equitably among the whole
number of workers normally employed, either by shortening hours or rotating
working shifts.
(7) That in cases where direct relief must be given it is recommended that
the following principles be observed:
(a) Costs should be evenly divided between the municipality, Province, and
Dominion.
(&) In cases of unorganized districts and municipalities, which satisfy the
Province that they are unable to meet their share, then the cost shall be borne
equally by the provincial and the Dominion Governments.
(c) Where, due to special conditions prevailing, responsibility for a large
volume of actual relief funds must he undertaken by a private charitable agency
these same public authorities shall take recognition of the fact in the distribu
tion of any or such moneys as may be assigned for actual expenditure on
emergency relief.
(8) That this council recommend^ the passage by Parliament at the forth
coming special session of adequate appropriations to provide for the relief of
unemployment by the methods recommended and for such other contingencies as
may arise in connection with providing work or relief.
(9) That an immediate survey of imports should be made, followed by such
legislative changes as will result in the production by Canadian labor of such
commodities heretofore imported, as the survey discloses can be efficiently and
economically produced within the Dominion and that coincident therewith the
Government take steps to safeguard the interests of the consumers.
(10) That the Federal Government give all possible encouragement to the
efficient marketing of Canadian grain, farm produce, and other primary
products.
(11) The council takes recognition of the decision of the Government to
restrict the entry of immigrants into the country at the present time and would
urge that this policy should be continued until it is shown to the satisfaction
of the Government that such immigrants can be absorbed and given employment
without detriment to the Canadian people.
(12) That this council urge upon the Federal authorities that provision be
made for an adequate census of the unemployed in Canada in connection with
the 1931 census.
The following committees were appointed by the president:
Committee on resolutions.—John S. B. Davie, Concord, N. H., chairman;
Mrs. M. S. West, Richmond, Va.; W. S. Dobbs, Toronto, Ontario; George E,
Gill, Indianapolis, Ind.
Auditing committee.—H. V. Hoyer, Des Moines, Iowa, chairman; J. Neish,
Winnipeg, Manitoba; George F. Miles, Columbus, Ohio.
p r e s i d e n t ’ s ad d r ess
147
Committee on time and place of meeting.—Carl Ott, Youngstown, Ohio, chair
man ; Daniel Hausmann, Albany, N. Y .; Mrs. Lillian E. Tappen, Atlantic City,
N. J .; H. C. Garner, Timmins, Ontario; J. M. Southall, Nashville, Tenn.
Committee on nomination■of officers.—R. A. Rigg, Ottawa, Ontario, chairman;
Francis Payette, Montreal, Quebec; W. A. Wilder, Massachusetts; C. J. Dollen,
New York; Fred C. Croxton, Columbus, Ohio.
Sergeant at arms.—G. Hamilton, Oshawa, Ontario.
The committee on credentials reported the names of the members
in good standing who were entitled to be seated as delegates, which
report was accepted.
|Meeting adjourned.]
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 9, 1930— AFTERNOON SESSION
Chairman, John S. B. Davie, Commissioner of Labor of New Hampshire
The Field o f E m ploym ent
B y B a r n e y C o h en ,
Director Illinois Department of Labor
I feel that these annual meetings are of tremendous benefit to all
o f us and to the employment service. They serve as a clearing
house for the exchange of information—a chance for all of us who
are kept busy from day to day with the details of our work to see
the larger aspects of our problem and to find out what the other
fellow is doing. In my 14 years of experience with free employment
work, both in the Federal and State services, I have gained many
very valuable suggestions from the addresses and discussions in these
meetings, and I am sure that each of you can make a similar state
ment. We need to get away from details once in a while, so that
we may see the larger problems which confront us. I feel that we
all face the danger, because we are so busy, of not being able to
recognize the facts.
The subject which I am to discuss this afternoon is so broad that
it is difficult to know where to begin. Perhaps I should say that it is
difficult to know where to stop, for there are innumerable points
which I should like to discuss in dealing with this subject. I have
decided that the best thing to do is to discuss, in the light of my own
experience, some of the directions in which we should work for the
improvement of the free employment service. We are all trying
to do the best we can with a difficult task, but none of us would say
that he thinks his organization is perfect. Let me touch upon a
few points which we should all bear in mind in trying to render more
efficient service to the employers and the working men and women
whom it is our duty to assist.
In the first place, many States are faced with the problem of ex
tending the service. The director or superintendent of the free
employment service can not consider his organization adequate until
free employment offices cover the State, providing adequate service
for every sizable industrial community. In some cases only one
or two or three offices are available to meet the needs of an entire
State. Such a situation is bound to be unsatisfactory. We now
have 20 offices in Illinois, but we do not feel that our service is as
complete as it should be by any means. We have opened several
new offices in the last few months, and we are working toward the
ultimate goal of complete coverage for all industrial centers.
Another important avenue for the employment service is that of
better coordination of existing offices. Let me give you an example
from Illinois history. In the early years of the century each em
ployment office in Illinois was entirely independent of every other
148
THE FIELD OF EMPLOYMENT
149
office. There was no effective exchange o f information or positions,
even among offices in the same city. This unfortunate condition has
since been rectified in large part, but I feel that there is room for
a still closer coordination of the offices in various Illinois cities, and
we are working toward that end. A system should be worked out in
each State whereby each office is intimately in touch with all other
offices. An applicant may then be directed to those places in which
he may secure a position in his own line o f work. Only by such a
system functioning successfully can the supply of labor be most
evenly distributed to meet the demand.
A coordinated system of employment offices should provide for
frequent meetings, where all employment officials working in the
State can come together and discuss their various problems and ways
of meeting these problems—just as we are doing here in this conven
tion. We have long used these state-wide conferences in Illinois,
and I know that they are used in a number of other States as well.
We have found them of the greatest value.
This point logically brings up the question of coordination between
the States. In my former position as district director o f the United
States employment service I came to see the need of some system of
interstate cooperation, and I favor some constructive effort in this
direction. The subject is too large for me to do more than touch
on here, but I feel that the Federal Government could be of assistance
in this matter by providing a carefully worked out cooperative system
which would supplement our State employment work by providing
coordination between the States.
I feel that one of the most important needs for our employment
work is to establish closer contacts with local industries. Employ
ment officials should study carefully the needs of their local indus^
tries, their employment policies, the seasonality of their employment,
their salary ranges, opportunities for advancement, etc. Such
knowledge will have a twofold purpose. It will enable the employ
ment office to furnish employers with employees who will be better
fitted for the work to be performed, and it will enable the office to
inform prospective employees more fully concerning the nature of
the work and the opportunities presented. This will bring increased
satisfaction both to employers and employees, and will act power
fully to decrease labor turnover, absenteeism, and other labor costs.
Every effort should be made by the local employment superin
tendent to establish close contact with the employers in his district.
Telephone calls, bulletins, advertising, and personal calls are all
helpxul in this work. Employers can be persuaded that the free
employment agency is the best and most logical place to secure em
ployees, and they can be made to turn naturally to the public office
instead o f to private fee-charging agencies. It is the task of the
employment superintendent, (1) to make his office the best in the
locality, and (2) to see that employers are made aware of the fact.
In Illinois we believe that a system of local advisory boards, com
posed of local business men and employees, will be most helpful
in this important task of bringing the superintendent into close con
tact with employers and employees in his district. Our general
advisory board, functioning for all our offices, has been very helpful
in the past, and we have recently appointed a local board o f five
150
E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L M EETIN G ---- 1. A. P . E . S.
members in each city in which we have an employment office. These
boards are composed of outstanding leaders in the community. We
are confident that these boards will go far toward making our offices
central clearing houses in employment matters.
A moment ago I touched on the question of advertising. I believe
in the value of advertising. I do not mean that we must necessarily
buy columns of space in local newspapers, although I think some
advertising of this nature may be useful. There are many other
forms of advertising which do not require such an investment and
which will bring even greater returns. The superintendent should
become the authority on employment matters in his town. He should
send news articles to the local press. He should utilize his oppor
tunities to state the merits and usefulness of his service in public
addresses. He can use periodical bulletins, as we do in Illinois,
as an effective means of bringing applicants to the attention of
employers.
The official bulletin of the department of labor can be used to
call the attention of the public to the free employment service, and
should present statistics of their activities. The Labor Bulletin,
official publication of the Illinois Department of Labor, gives space
monthly to the activities of the free employment service. There
are many other types of advertising which could be mentioned, but
time forbids. I wish merely to stress the importance of a wellrounded advertising campaign as a means of making our service
more effective.
Another thing which is important in employment work is the need
of clean, attractive offices, centrally located. Years ago the Illinois
offices were to be found in side streets and undesirable neighbor
hoods. We brought them out into central locations, cleaned them
up, and tried to make them attractive. We found that our business
increased phenomenally, even in the first year.
Another point, the importance of which I do not need to stress,
is the necessity of courteous, efficient, trained employees in the local
offices. Poor employees mean poor service. We can not hope to
have our offices efficient until we employ only trained, courteous
persons to meet the needs of the public which we serve.
I would like to mention also the need for specialization in our
work. One general office, attempting to handle all types of labor,
can not hope to do efficient work. We should have separate offices,
or at least separate divisions in the same office, for men and women,
for skilled and unskilled labor, and for different types of skilled
labor. Wherever the size of the city warrants such action, special
ized men should deal with different types of applicants. We could
get nowhere in Chicago, for instance, if we had the same man at
tempting to interview and place farm hands, machinists, unskilled
laborers, domestic servants, and clerical or office workers. Industry
to-day is highly specialized; if we wish to be of real service to indus
try we must follow the trend and specialize our own work also.
Now I come to a point which I regard as of vital importance—that
is, the interview. Here I feel that employment men have a great
deal to learn about that new and important development in industry
from men and women trained in this work. They know that only
by means of such careful interviewing will they be able to select
FIELD OF EMPLOYMENT---- DISCUSSION
151
men and women who have the ability and skill which are needed for
this work.
I f the free employment offices are to do their work effectively in
putting round pegs only in round holes and square pegs only in
square holes, they must interview applicants in the same fashion.
The interviewer should analyze the applicant carefully, so that he
may place him in a position tor which he is fitted. It is not enough
to ask him what he can do and then send him out on a job. Ask him
questions about his work, analyze his personal characteristics, secure
an accurate estimate of his skill and ability.
I have previously suggested that employment officials should
familiarize themselves with the employment policies of employers.
With a clear knowledge of the needs of the employer and an accurate
knowledge of the abilities of the applicant, the employment official
can begin to send the employer men he wants and can send men to
the positions which they want, and when we begin to make place
ments in this fashion we will get results. The free employment office
in each city will inevitably become the central exchange of the
employment market. We shall be serving the people of a community
as they should be served.
In concluding, let me stress again the need for acquiring a broader
vision in these employment matters. The details and distractions of
everyday work tend to make us lose sight of the broader and more
important issues. We must take time to see the problem in the large,
to keep ourselves up to date and foresee future trends, to adopt
new methods, to keep ourselves abreast of the times. A large section
of our work should be educative in nature. It is only when we adopt
this larger attitude toward our work that we shall be able to give
the service we should be giving, and it is only as we adopt this atti
tude that we will be able to make the public free employment offices
really effective as a labor market.
D ISCUSSION
Chairman D a v i e . A great many things can be brought out in dis
cussion o f the paper just read, and I am going to declare this meet
ing open for such discussion. I hope everyone present will feel free
to discuss Mr. Cohen’s paper.
Mr. L ip p a r t (W isconsin). Mr. Cohen spoke about the advisability
of having centrally located offices for handling the unemployed.
We have had difficulty in Milwaukee in getting such a building, but
if we are to give good service we should have a suitably located
building. [Mr. Lippart outlined the different methods used in Mil
waukee for securing jobs.]
Mr. K a u f m a n n (New York). We have considerable competition
from private agencies like the Y. M. C. A. and the Salvation Army,
and also from free-charging agencies, of which there are a great many
in New York. We have a system of calling firms to find out if they
need workers.
Mr. C o h e n . The system of calling firms is a good one. A good
time to do this is in the early morning.
38852°— 31------- 11
152
E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L M EETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
Mr. K a t j f m a n n . In New York proper there are something like
1,146 private fee-charging agencies.
Mr. B o n d . I am given to understand that fee-charging agencies
have more success in the placement of their workers than the public
employment offices, as they are able to give more time to the indi
vidual applicant and put forth more effort to place him.
Mr. C o h e n . The employees in private agencies are paid large
fees by applicants to find positions for them. They receive a com
mission from each applicant. Representatives of these agencies
are at the doors of the large industrial plants every morning. They
are in touch with every employer in Chicago and keep up a con
nection with the superintendents of all the large industries.
Mr. C u n n i n g h a m . We in Ontario are not bothered so much with
private fee-charging agencies as we have legislation governing
them. I fail to see where the fee-charging agency can put forth
more effort to place applicants than the employment service. We
send out circular letters and bulletins and the larger offices have scouts
out all the time, who are continually bringing in jobs. A special
department is maintained for the handicapped worker, particularly
in the Toronto office. However, in the smaller offices the superin
tendent must get to know all branches of industry, for he has appli
cants of every class, and must be familiar, at least to some extent,
with the various occupations and the different operations performed
in industry to-day. The majority of offices consist o f only one room
where all the interviewing and telephoning must be done.
Mr. W a n d s . I do not think the fee-charging agencies in Detroit
have more success than we have.
Mr. B o t h e (New Jersey). The private agencies open their offices
at 7 in the morning and do not close before 6 at night. The com
plaint has been made that there is nobody in the public offices before
9 or 9.30 a. m., and that they are closed at 5 p. m. Our own office
is in a suburb of Newark with a population of 60,000, of whom some
22,000 are wage earners. We have a clearance arrangement with 17
free agencies and also exchange with other agencies. Cards adver
tising the public employment office are supplied to all organizations
doing any kind of employment work, such as churches, social agen
cies, and clubs, so that the employment service may be kept before
their members. We keep our office open from 7 in the morning to 6
at night in order to get the early and late calls, but individual
members of the staff work only 8 hours.
Mr. K o v e l e s k i . What is the amount of the bond required from
your fee-charging agencies ?
Mr. C o h e n . Five hundred dollars. Some have taken from their
clients as much as $100 in the course of a day’s business, but all we
could collect from them was the $500 bond. I think this should be
increased. We are going to ask to have this bond increased to $2,500.
Mr. R ig g . Although I have said this at previous conventions, it
may be news to some of you to learn that, so far as Canada is con
cerned, in five out of eight industrial Provinces private fee-charging
agencies are outlawed, and legislation has been passed prohibiting
their operations. In the Province of Ontario a few years ago there
were between 90 and 100 private fee-charging agencies. To-day there
FIELD OF EM PLOYMENT— DISCUSSION
153
are only 15. In Quebec there are only eight or nine such agencies.
Nowhere else throughout the Dominion of Canada are private feecharging agencies found. The finding of a commission was that
private fee-charging agencies were a menace to both the employer
and the employee. I do not say that all are alike, but nevertheless
a large percentage o f them, in any district where any liberty has
been afforded them, have sought very successfully to take advantage
o f the unfortunate condition in which an applicant for employment
finds himself. There has been collusion with foremen and superin
tendents, so that the poor fellow in need of a job has suffered in
consequence. He has perhaps been sent to a job where the tenure of
occupancy often depends upon the piratical spirit and ambition of a
superintendent or foreman. This has been the finding of every
commission appointed either in Canada or the United States.
You are grappling directly with this problem at the desk and
over the counter, and the delegates from Canada know very well
what my appreciation of their job is. My day’s peace is very seri
ously disturbed when I see a letter in the morning paper or listen
to the tragic story of a man or woman to whom the experience o f
life has been most exceedingly bitter. Frequently those whose lives
have been unfortunate are described as bums and lazy good-fornothings, but, thank God, this attitude is largely disappearing.
These men and women are demoralized and crushed, until they are
spurned, and regarded as dregs of our body politic and of no use
to society. This attitude, however, is the result of a condition over
which we have no control. Until those in authority, until those who
are responsible for the conduct of industry, until those who have the
control o f finance, are prepared to face seriously this problem of
unemployment and make the required adjustments so that these men
and boys shall not be left victims of these conditions, these men
and boys, the flotsam and jetsam that society does not like and does
not want brought to its doors, will have to be regarded as the help
less victims of a system which in its operation has taken from them
the very finest element in their make-up. They are a direct charge
on society and on industry, and this problem has to be faced in the
right way.
In Canada during the past few months we have witnessed a very
remarkable interest in unemployment. We have elected a govern
ment which is pledged to make the most determined efforts to restore
employment to the unemployed and to take care o f those whom it
has not been possible to absorb. A special session o f the Parlia
ment o f Canada has been called for the sole purpose of dealing
with unemployment. We are dealing face to face with the men and
women who need work, and this condition is one which we have to
deal with directly. I know how very easy it is for others to say
that civil servants do not have to worry. I will, however, pay this
compliment to the superintendents of the Employment Service of
Canada, speaking in a general sense, that they and the staffs of
the offices generally are more diligent in the performance of their
duties, more earnest to do their work right, than would ' be the
case if the offices were under private management. I believe in
these men and women who are in the service. It is not a matter
o f an 8-hour day with them. I have been in the homes of some
154
E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L M EETING-----1. A. P . E . S.
of them when telephone calls came during the night. Da}' in and
day out they are on the job. There is only one way in which a
government employment agency will justify its existence; there
is one way only in which to capture the support of publicly elected
representatives; and that is by giving all we have in us, and to justify
the service by 100 per cent sincere application.
Chairman D avie . W e will now proceed with the next paper, and
I take great pleasure in introducing Mr. Roswell F. Phelps, assistant
director United States Employment Service, Boston, Mass., who
will talk to you on the Problem o f the Older Wage Earner.
Problem o f the Older W age Earner
By
R o s w e ll
F.
P h e lp s ,
Assistant Director United States Employment Service,
Boston, Mass.
I am going to confine my talk chiefly to the subject of the older
wage earner who is being displaced in industry.
There is a tendency on the part of some people who are emo
tionally minded to exaggerate the extent to which the older wage
earners are being discriminated against by employers in the matter
o f hiring and firing.
In the comparatively short time at my disposal I have endeavored
to collect data from the superintendents of the four State offices in
Massachusetts. The figures obtained from the offices of these four
superintendents show that of the 2,273 male applicants 45 years old
and older who were registered, 1,114, or 49 per cent, were placed.
O f the 13,380 male applicants under 45 years of age, 7,368, or 55.1
per cent, were placed. It would appear, therefore, that on this broad
basis of age division there was apparently very little discrimination
on the part of employers against males 45 years old and older in
favor o f those under 45 years. This comparison leads to the con
clusion that the point of demarcation on the basis of age does not
occur at the age of 45.
[Mr. Phelps exhibited a chart showing the older wage earners in
five-year groups, which he carefully explained, pointing out that the
discrimination against the older wage earner did not begin to show
until the group age 55 was reached. A careful survey showed that
placements of men over 45 and under 55 were actually more frequent
than o f those in lower-age groups, and the decrease in placements
was not noticeable until one reached the 56-65 group and was not
extensive until one surveyed the group over 65.]
When making placements we always try to work in the older
wrage earner wherever possible, and give preference to men with
dependents and to the handicapped worker, paying particular atten
tion to the permanency of the placement. You can very often talk
an employer into taking an older worker, providing he has the quali
fications for the job specified, as an older worker will give better
satisfaction than the younger man in many instances.
I would also stress the need for a special office for clerical and
commercial workers, in order that they may not have to mix with
the other classes of workers. We have organized a special depart
ment for clerical workers, and this is established in the mercantile
center o f the city.
OLDER WAGE EARNER---- DISCUSSION
155
Let us do what the private agencies are doing, that is, work with
the individual. We are seeking all the time to find men of greater
capacity for this work and trying to raise the character of the serv
ice. The important thing is the permanency of the placements and
the high character of the person placed, as well as the high grade of
the position filled.
[Mr. Phelps also referred to the cost per placement.]
DISCUSSION
Mr. G ill (Indiana). I think we should pay more attention to the
quality of the placement and not so much to the quantity.
Mr. R igg. It is difficult to get the correct ages of the older work
ers from employment service registrations. I do not think a man of
45 or over would say so when registering for employment. I know
I would not, and I would like to have an expression o f opinion
from one o f the local superintendents on this point.
Mr. C u n n in g h a m . When interviewing older applicants for em
ployment I find they are apt to state their ages as under the correct
age, especially men who are aged physically.
Mr. P helps (Massachusetts). Perhaps we are operating at undue
expense in paying so much attention to the placing of the individual.
However, we do give preference to those with dependents, to the
older worker, and to the widowed housewife. But we must take
some intelligent interest in the individual. Some agencies are
trying to place executives in certain offices in Boston, selling this
service at $16 a year. But they are simply extracting from the
people a price without giving any return. I f we had the power to
do so, such people would be put out of business.
Mr. K oveleski. Y ou say they are charging $16 a year; in New
York they want $100 for securing a position of that nature. In one
city in New York State there are 1,146 fee-charging agencies in the
same area covered by only 10 public employment offices.
Mr. H udson. Referring to the question of cost per placement, my
early ambition was to keep the cost down to the absolute minimum
and to make a comparison of different offices on the basis of actual
cost. I urged superintendents to go out and canvass for jobs, but
found this had not been done because the superintendents wished
to keep down the expenses of their offices so that the cost per place
ment would not be affected. Also, local offices would not be kept
clean because the superintendent feared the expense o f a cleaner
would add to his cost per placement. Any reasonable expense, how
ever, that would add to the attractiveness or the efficiency of the
office would be gladly passed.
Mr. P helps . Certain offices located in city halls or in Govern
ment buildings have no rental to pay, nor are they charged for light
and cleaning, whereas others occupy rented premises.
Mr. D obbs (Ontario). Speaking of juvenile applicants from 16
to 20, the better type of employer is demanding a higher educational
rating before employing a boy. I think, too, that the group insur
ance plan militates very largely against reemployment of all men
over 40.
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E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L M EETIN G ---- 1. A. P . E. S.
Mr. P h e l p s . The effect of group insurance on the aged worker is
greatly exaggerated. I find that it affects only about 3 per cent of
our people. More humanity is to be found in the industrial em
ployer than we give him credit for.
Mr. W i l l i a m s (Minnesota^. The fee-charging agencies in our
State come under our supervision. I f we should dictate what an
applicant should be paid, his hours of work, and the kind of worker
the employer should have, he would never return to place another
order. I am interested to know what is going to be the program
of the United States Government in the matter of unemployment,
and anything the present gathering could do to assist should be done.
I f only we had an employment service such as you have in Canada,
and if this group could demonstrate to Congress how a sum of money
could be spent in organizing such a service—if a committee could be
formed to collect data to show that the money would be judiciously
and wisely spent. We should give the employer exactly what he
wants and not attempt to dictate to him in any way.
Chairman D a v i e . The question of the further development of the
United States Employment Service appears on the program for to
morrow and will come up for discussion then.
Mr. R ig g . Some of our local superintendents who are familiar
with the problem of collating the ages of the older applicants might
be prepared to tell of their experiences.
Mr. L i p p a r t . Applicants must be aware o f the discrimination on
the part of the employer or they would not give false ages when
registering at the offices.
Mr. C u n n i n g h a m . It is almost impossible to secure accurate data
on applicants over middle age. Men in this class who are in good
health are proud of their age. I believe that 1 out of every 10 men
over 47 years who come into our offices do not give their proper age.
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 10, 1930—MORNING SESSION
Chairman, B. C. Seiple, Superintendent State-City Employment Service, Cleveland, Ohio
President H u d s o n . The address will be given by Mr. R. A. Rigg,
Director of the Employment Service of Canada.
H ow the Federal or D om inion E m ploym ent Service
Can Cooperate with the State or Provincial E m ploy
m ent Service
B y R . A. Rigg, Director of Employment Service, Department of Labor of Canada
It is less than six weeks since the [Canadian Federal election took
place. Since that time a new Government las been formed and
Parliament is in session and dealing with tlle problem of unemployment. I am disposed to disagree with the statement that con
ditions were very much worse is this country in 1921 than they
are to-day. The Federal Government is trying to ascertain how
many people are at present unemployed and how many might be
unemployed during the winter months. Possibly over 200,000 out of
a population o f 10,000,000. Never has there been a time to my
knowledge when the authorities have taken the situation so seriously
as they are taking it to-day. Too many people have been prone in
the past to dismiss unemployment as one of the inscrutable works of
Providence. But to-day it is no longer possible for the authorities
to ignore the problem, nor is it possible for anyone to dismiss it as
being due to inscrutable forces. The people demand that it be faced.
With regard to the active cooperation which exists between the
Federal and Provincial Governments in this country, it would be
difficult to find anyone in Canada who would question our system
as not being a good one, because it has been successfully demonstrated
that it is, and there is no one to say otherwise.
Under the terms o f the constitutions of our respective countries
the powers o f government are divided, the Federal Government pos
sessing authority in certain fields, while others come within the
jurisdiction of State or Provincial governments. While the powers
vested in the Federal and State Governments relative to jurisdic
tional control in matters affecting the establishment and operation
o f employment offices may not be identical in detail with those pos
sessed by the Federal ana Provincial Governments of Canada, they
are, at least in practice, sufficiently alike to permit of the differences
being ignored for our present purpose.
Under the terms of the British North America Act, which is the
title of Canada’s written constitution, the authority for the establish
ment and regulation of employment offices lies within the jurisdic
tion of the Provincial governments to establish their own systems of
employment service and to inspect, license, and regulate private fee-
157
158
E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
charging agencies. The degree to which this is acknowledged may
be illustrated by reference to a situation which developed when the
Employment Service of Canada was organized.
This organization owes its origin to a Federal measure entitled
“ The Employment Offices’ Coordination Act—an act to aid and en
courage the organization and coordination o f employment offices,”
which was passed in 1918. In accordance with* the terms of this
legislation, an annual agreement is entered into between the Fed
eral Minister of Labor and the authorized ministers of each of the
Provinces of Canada, with the exception of Prince Edward Island.
This agreement also determines the financial contribution which the
Federal Government shall make to the Provincial governments for
the purpose of assisting in the maintenance of government employ
ment offices, coordinates the activities of all the offices of the service,
insures uniformity of procedure, and gives to the Federal Depart
ment of Labor authority to inspect and supervise.
The service began to function early in 1919, with six of the nine
Provinces cooperating as contracting parties, the Maritime Provinces
not coming in. By virtue of the powers conferred by the Consti
tution o f Canada, the Canadian Parliament had in the early stages
o f the World War passed a measure known as the war measures act.
Under the terms o f this act the Government of Canada acquired
enormously wider powers than were possessed by it in times of peace.
Some of these powers, during normal periods, were possessed exclu
sively by the governments of the Provinces.
When the Employment Service of Canada started to function
Canada was confronted with huge postwar problems. These in
cluded the reabsorption into civilian life and remunerative employ
ment o f her half million returned men and the rapid transformation
o f her industrial organization from a four and a quarter years’ war
footing to a peace establishment. Believing that a coordinated,
nation-wide system of Government employment offices would be of
assistance in this pressing situation, the Federal Government exer
cised the authority acquired through the war measures act and estab
lished and operated employment offices in the Maritime Provinces as
a part o f the Employment Service of Canada. The act lapsed on
April 30, 1920, and as the power to continue these offices went with
it, the Federal Government was obliged to retire from the field.
From the foregoing it will be seen that each Provincial government
could have set up within its own boundaries a system of government
employment offices. As a matter of fact, some of these governments
had actually taken this step. Obviously, each system might have
adopted forms and methods of procedure and statistical compilation
different from the rest, and under such circumstances it would have
been difficult to make provision for interprovincial clearance facil
ities. These errors have been obviated or eliminated by the institu
tion o f the Employment Service of Canada. To-day all the
Provincial governments of Canada, with the exception of the small
maritime Province of Prince Edward Island, have established free
public employment offices and maintain them in operation. The
system comprises a chain of offices located in 65 centers o f chief
industrial importance stretching across the Dominion from the
Atlantic to the Pacific. A ll the forms, some 30 in number, necessary
for use in these offices are supplied free of cost by the Federal
COOPERATION OF FEDERAL AND STATE SERVICES
159
Department of Labor, and are uniform for all offices. These include
a report form which is daily completed and mailed to an inter
provincial clearing house, two of which are maintained by the
Federal Department o f Labor, one for eastern Canada in Ottawa, and
the other for western Canada in Winnipeg. The form contains
necessary details concerning every applicant registered for work,
every vacancy notified, and every placement made during the day.
From these uniform reports the office records of the entire system
are tabulated and compiled by means o f the Hollerith system, thus
insuring the maximum degree of accuracy.
For the instruction and guidance of the staffs of the various
offices and further to assist in securing uniformity o f method in
each office, the Federal Department of Labor has prepared and issued
a manual o f procedure, which explains in detail the proper use of
each form.
Incidental reference has previously been made to interprovincial
clearance o f labor. While the United States and Canada are con
stituted as national entities, both are divided into geographical
areas designated, respectively, States and Provinces. But it is
neither desirable nor practicable in either country to confine workers
within the State or Provincial territorial boundaries in which they
have originally been domiciled. It is of primary importance, in a
properly organized public employment service in either country, that
facilities should be provided which would enable a demand for labor
in one State or Province, which could not be met by the local supply,
to be matched by competent surplus labor available in another State
or Province.
For the successful accomplishment of this transfer of labor, it
is essential that the public employment service should have a national
outlook and be organized on a national basis. To do this involves
the provision o f some bond which will unite the otherwise sectional
activities of the various States and Provinces. Our Federal Gov
ernments are peculiarly adapted to perform this function of binding
together State or Provincial employment bureau operations on a
uniform national basis. Indeed, apart from their cooperation, it is
scarcely conceivable that State or Provincial efforts could be con
verted into a nationally unified system.
In Canada the Federal-Provincial Government employment sys
tem meets this need. It is the common practice for one Province
to come to the aid o f another in the effort to fill labor requirements.
Procedure regulations provide that in the event o f a shortage of labor
existing in the zone of a local office an order covering the vacancy
should be circulated among all offices in the Province in which the
originating office is located. I f the workers required are not avail
able within the Province the order may then be given Dominionwide clearance; that is, be circulated among all the offices of the
service. The regulations further provide against the possibility of
workers being dispatched to the employer filing the order and finding
on arrival at their destination that others have secured the employ
ment, and that therefore their services are not required.
Frequently, however, it is found to be quite unnecessary to put the
whole of this machinery in motion. General superintendents of the
Employment Service of Canada for the several Provinces have ac
quired an intimate knowledge of labor conditions as they commonly
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E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L M EETIN G ---- 1. A. P . E. S.
obtain in all Provinces. A general superintendent for one Province,
having found that one of his local offices is faced with a demand
for a certain class of worker, is very often in a position to know
that the demand can not be met from any source within his Prov
ince, but that the necessary labor can be secured from some other
Province. In such a case, to observe the procedure above described
would not only mean the expenditure of useless effort, but also in
volve that which is more disastrous, namely, an unwarrantable delay
in filling the vacancies. Therefore, in such circumstances the observ
ance of the formal routine is disregarded, and the transfer of workers
is arranged by direct communication between the two general super
intendents concerned.
The principle underlying the regulations o f the Employment Serv
ice o f Canada governing the interprovincial transfer of labor is that
each Province has the authority to determine the question of the ad
mission of labor from the other Provinces, and in accordance with
this principal the offices of the service in each Province are forbidden
to send workers outside their own provincial boundaries until the
consent of the receiving Province has been secured.
The coordination of the Government employment office activities
in Canada through the operation of the employment offices’ coordi
nation act has resulted in all the railways of Canada, with one or
two minor exceptions, granting a special reduced transportation
rate solely in favor of those workers who have secured their em
ployment through the Employment Service of Canada. This rate,
which is approximately three-quarters of the regular tariff rate,
applies on all journeys where the fare exceeds $4. The sympathetic
cooperation of the Canadian railways with the work of the Employ
ment Service of Canada, concretely expressed through the medium
o f this reduced rate, is greatly appreciated. It not only results in
facilitating the movement of labor to distant points where work is
available but also in the aggregate annually saves a considerable sum
of money to workers who are proceeding to their employment.
This reduced rate is available upon presentation at the railway
ticket office of a certificate issued by authorized officials of the em
ployment service. It is estimated that nearly 50 per cent of all
placements in the entire country involve railway travel.
Having regard to the fact that nine governments, one Federal and
eight Provincial, jointly enter into the composition of the Employ
ment Service of Canada; that the employment offices are established
and staffed by the Provincial governments; and that the function of
the Federal Government is to bind the several Provincial systems
into a composite organization under the terms of agreements an
nually entered into between the Federal Department o f Labor and
each o f the Provinces, what guiding principle is observed in order
that harmonious cooperation may be maintained? The administra
tion o f a public employment system by multiple governmental
authorities, and particularly under a condition in which the cement
ing factor possesses no constitutional right of jurisdiction, can only
be perpetuated in one way. That way is for each to fully respect
the rights and interests of the rest and to practice such frankness in
the discussion of problems that unanimous action may be secured.
Consonant with these essential conditions, under the terms of the
employment offices’ act, the Federal Government of Canada has
COOPERATION OF FEDERAL AND STATE SERVICES
161
authorized and created an organization designated the Employment
Service Council of Canada. This body, which meets annually, acts
in an advisory capacity to the Federal Minister of Labor. Its func
tions are technically described as: “ To assist in the administration
of the employment offices’ coordination act and to recommend ways
of preventing unemployment.’’ It is composed of representatives
appointed as follows: One by each of the provincial governments;
2 by the Canadian Manufacturers’ Association; 1 by the Association
of Canadian Building and Construction Industries; 2 by the Trades
and Labor Congress of Canada; 1 by the Railway Association of
Canada; 1 by the railway brotherhoods; 1 by the Canadian Lumber
men’s Association; 2 by the Canadian Council of Agriculture; 1 by
the ex-service men; 3 (2 of whom must be women) by the Federal
Department of Labor; and 1 by the Federal Department of Pensions
and National Health.
It will be noted that, within reasonable limits, representation
is given to all bodies whose interests are directly and substantially
involved. The council is competent to deal with all matters affecting
the welfare o f the Employment Service of Canada. It has deliber
ated upon, and very largely determined, the policies of the service,
and has reviewed and approved its forms and methods of procedure.
Year by year it discusses the problems that emerge, and submits its
recommendations to the Federal Minister of Labor. It may be
added that these recommendations are always treated with the
respect which the judgments of such interested minds command.
As a further means of meriting and promoting confidence and
harmonious cooperation—although the annual agreements bind the
Provinces to use such forms and records as the Federal Department
o f Labor may supply—it is the policy of the department that no
changes in forms or procedure, no matter how insignificant, shall
be made until the proposed changes have been considered by and
received the sanction of the Provincial authorities or the Employment
Service Council of Canada.
As indicative of the measure of response which the practice of
such confidence by the Federal Department of Labor elicits from its
provincial partners the following illustration is quoted. For the
purpose o f exercising jurisdiction over matters affecting the interests
o f discharged members of the Canadian Expeditionary Forces which
were engaged in the W orld War, the Government of Canada organ
ized a special department, known as the Department of Soldiers’
Civil Reestablishment. One o f the functions of this department was
to provide facilities for securing employment for ex-soldiers who
were handicapped by reason o f disabilities sustained in the war. To
discharge this responsibility the department organized a special em
ployment service and established offices throughout the country.
Eventually it came to be realized that not only was there a duplica
tion o f Government activity in maintaining two systems of employ
ment service, but also that the Employment Service of Canada was
much more suitably equipped to give maximum service to handi
capped ex-soldiers than were the offices of the Department of Soldiers’
Civil Reestablishment. It was suggested by the representatives of the
ex-service men that this work should be transferred to the offices of
the Employment Service of Canada and the proposal was supported
by the Department o f Soldiers5 Civil Reestablishment, the Employ
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E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L M EETIN G---- 1. A. P . E. S.
ment Service Council of Canada, and a royal commission which
investigated the subject.
The problem o f giving effect to this recommendation presented
one grave difficulty, arising out of the fact that responsibilty for the
care of these disabled ex-members of the forces rested admittedly
upon the shoulders of the Federal Government, while the offices to
which it was proposed that the work should be transferred were
established and directly controlled by the Provincial governments,
subject to such conditions as were set forth in the annual agreements.
The representatives o f some of the Provincial governments sensed
the possibility that if the proposed scheme were carried out the
handicapped ex-soldiers might develop the practice of regarding the
Provincial governments as having undertaken responsibility for
providing them with employment or maintenance. These fears,
however, have been set aside, and in accordance with the terms o f a
new section incorporated in the annual agreements the offices of
the Employment Service of Canada in all Provinces, with one excep
tion, are now performing a function for which the Federal Govern
ment is entirely responsible, thereby assisting the Federal Govern
ment to effect a substantial economy and securing more efficient service
for those who are industrially handicapped due to their participation
in the Great War. Among six of the larger offices, where the volume
of this work is greatest, the Federal Department of Labor has placed
11 Federal employees, whose salaries and expenses are paid by the
Federal Government, to assist the Provincial staffs. These Federal
civil servants are subject to the direct control and supervision of the
Provincial officials in charge of the offices in which they are employed.
There are five of these Federal civil servants in the Toronto office.
Reference has already been made to the financial aid which the
Federal Government, under the authority of the employment offices’
coordination act, renders to the Provincial governments to encourage
and assist in the establishment and maintenance of free public em
ployment offices. This contribution is equivalent to about one-third
o f the total maintenance and operating expenditures of the Provinces.
Chairman S e i p l e . We will continue with the next paper and dis
cuss both papers together.
D evelopm ent o f a Federal Public E m ploym ent
System in the United States
B y F e e d 0 . C b o x t o n , Special Assistant Department of Industrial Relations
of Ohio
The true conception of a public employment office is that of a busi
ness organization, a labor exchange serving the man in need of a
job, serving the employer in need of workers, and serving the com
munity by assisting its citizens to earn a living and thus maintain
their self-reliance and independence. It is in no sense a charitable
or a semicharitable agency. It should not be expected to place the
unemployables, and the responsibility for caring for such persons
should rest with other agencies. It leads an active and not a passive
life. It actively seeks workers when jobs are available and it actively
seeks jobs when workers are available. It has a constructive program
DEVELOPM ENT OF FEDERAL SYSTEM IN U . S.
163
and definite plans for bringing together the worker and the job and
thus reducing involuntary idleness, and the loss from lack of workers.
The public employment system or service comprises a group of, or
many, individual offices bound together under a single administrative
head, or under a cooperative arrangement, for the purpose of making
the work of all more effective.
I f public employment offices are to be developed to carry the work
which the communities will demand within the next few years, each
of three governmental groups and each o f two economic groups must
cooperate in the undertaking.
The three governmental groups are the local community, the State,
and the Federal Government. The two economic groups are manage
ment and labor.
It is necessary to give brief consideration to the work which should
be expected of the local community and o f the State in order to make
clear my conception o f the Federal Government’s place in the general
plan.
A public employment office can hardly be expected to be perma
nently successful under our form of government, unless it grows out of
the community in which it is located. There must exist a local inter
est and a feeling o f local responsibility. The existence of this feeling
of local responsibility can generally be determined by a community’s
readiness to provide all, or a considerable part, of the expense of an
office during a probationary period of several months. In my opin
ion, a local office should never be established, except in case of
disaster, unless the community itself is ready to invest time and
money in the undertaking. The office should grow out of, and be a
part of, the community. There also should be sufficient local interest
assured to secure the active and continuing help of a carefully selected
committee which would be representative at least of labor and man
agement. The committee should have a threefold responsibility—
to assist in developing local policies and plans, to assist in securing
the highest possible type o f personnel and adequate financial support,
and to assist in interpreting the work of the public employment office
to the community, and securing the necessary cooperation.
Proof of a State’s real interest in public employment offices should
also be evident before the Federal Government subsidizes such service
in peace times. The State should be responsible for bringing together
the several offices in the State into a State system. It should provide
a part of the funds for the maintenance of each of the local offices,
except during a probationary period for new offices. It should pro
vide general supervision and be responsible for standards of person
nel and of work. It should maintain an active clearing house for the
State or for districts within the State. It should be responsible for
encouraging reasonable extension o f the system and for giving
special supervision to the actual establishment and operation of new
offices. In the more important industrial States, the State office
should be responsible for the creation of districts for the purpose
o f securing better administration o f the offices and for prompt clear
ance of information. The service rendered by the State can be made
more effective through the active participation of a State advisory
committee o f the same representative character as the suggested local
committee.
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E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L M EETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
It seems clear that an important place must be occupied by the Fed
eral Government if the public employment offices throughout the
United States are to be developed in a manner to render a sorely
needed service to labor, management, and the general public. With
out such general development, the communities and States which
go forward in creating and maintaining effective public employment
offices and systems will be, to some degree at least, penalized during
periods of industrial depression through attracting transient labor
from less progressive sections.
In considering the place which the Federal Government should fill
in the public employment system, it will be well to review briefly
certain matters relating to the development of the United States
Employment Service. The Federal service has had a particularly
difficult task from its beginning. Federal offices were first a part of
the immigration service and existed primarily to aid in the industrial
adjustment of the more recently arrived immigrants. This special
ization developed some unfavorable sentiment by reason of the
Government’s apparently greater concern for the immigrant when
citizens were often in need of the service which an employment office
ought to be expected to render. In some localities, too, but little, if
any, effort appeared to be made to cooperate with local public
employment offices.
Some months after the United States entered the World War the
Federal system was rapidly expanded to meet war conditions. A l
most impossible tasks were thrust upon the service, which had only
a comparatively small group of executives with experience in public
employment office work or procedure. The force had to be rapidly
expanded and but few experienced personnel men were available, as
such men were already engaged in responsible work with private
concerns or with large public undertakings. The Federal system
turned quite naturally to organized labor representatives in recruit
ing its responsible supervisory and administrative personnel. This
came about very largely because these labor representatives were gen
erally more experienced in industrial matters than were any others
who could be secured at that time. Unfortunately, the appointments,
largely from one group, led many throughout the country to believe
that the Federal system was prolabor rather than neutral.
The Federal Employment Service, too, had to bear a large share of
the criticism which arose by reason of the war-time policy of drawing
workers from nonessential into essential industries.
At the present time the Federal Employment Service provides the
franking privilege to cooperating offices and from a limited budget
it makes available supplies, and in some cases, personnel or funds.
It maintains offices for handling harvest hands, and recently has
established a number o f local offices to handle ex-service men!
Most of the war-time criticisms were carried over into the post
war period and have greatly hampered the development of a Federal
employment system. We liave now, however, reached a place where
there is a more general recognition of the value of public employ
ment offices and a somewhat better understanding of the need or
necessity for the more active participation of the Federal
Government.
D EVELOPM ENT OF FEDERAL SYSTEM IN U . S.
165
The lingering suspicion that the Federal system is maintained for
the benefit of organized labor ought to be fairly easily dispelled.
As a matter o f fact, public employment offices render practically no
direct service to organized labor. Very rarely does a member of
organized labor seek employment through such an office. The re
strictions on labor moving from one industry to another and the
preference accorded certain industries which came as a part o f the
war plans, o f course, passed with the war.
It is true, however, that due to confusion with reference to policies,
plans, and purposes of the Federal system many employers who
actively support State systems and State-city offices just as actively
oppose expansion of the Federal system. This was noticeably true
in several localities in Ohio during the present year.
I am convinced that the time has arrived when active and effective
support can be secured for the development of the Federal employ
ment system if a definite program can be adopted which recognizes
certain principles and defines clearly the field of responsibility of
community, State, and Nation.
The responsibility of community and State has been briefly con
sidered and attention is now directed to the Federal Government.
1. The Federal system must have the confidence of labor, o f man
agement, and o f the general public. A small active advisory com
mittee representative of these three groups should be created and
used. The greatest service rendered by the men serving on such a
committee would be that of inspiring confidence. The committee
would afford a medium through which the aim and work of the
employment system could be interpreted to various groups. It
would assist in determining and maintaining standards, both with
reference to personnel and work. It would aid in developing gen
eral policies. It would prevent the adoption of plans suggested
largely for reasons of political expediency.
2. The Federal system can not be effectively developed merely by
the granting of subsidies to States. Substantial subsidies will be
necessary, at least for a considerable period, but subsidies should
be granted to cooperating States when certain conditions are met
and only then. These conditions should include qualified State and
local personnel, satisfactory supervision of offices by the State, one
or more State clearance offices, reasonably adequate quarters for local
offices, records and reports in accord with established standards, etc.
3. The Federal system should serve as a coordinating organization
and provide the machinery through which the State systems could
cooperate. It should occupy a general supervisory position and
should afford competent supervision to assist in developing and main
taining standards agreed upon as a condition of cooperation. It
should encourage the extension of public employment offices. It
should promote constantly improving standards of personnel, of
methods, of records, and of reports. The Federal system should
insist that personnel be selected with reference to qualifications for
this particular kind of difficult work, that the salaries be adequate
to secure and to hold competent men, and that there be such freedom
from political interference as will insure continuity of service.
4. The Federal system should organize the cooperating States into
districts and finally into a united whole for clearance and other
similar purposes.
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E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
5. District and possibly national clearing offices should be main
tained by the Federal service.
6. The Federal system should continue to provide the franking
privilege and should furnish all office forms and similar supplies.
7. The Federal system should develop, from current records of
employment offices, and from other iniormation fairly easily ob
tained, a method of measuring the current trend of un-employment.
In Ohio the records of the 13 State-city public employment offices,
when analyzed for that purpose, have given us excellent measure
ments of trends of unemployment quite in advance of other available
figures.
8. The Federal system should itself operate no local offices. The
operation of such offices emphatically tends to weaken the Federal
system as a coordinating and supervisory organization. The Fed
eral Government is the only force which can successfully cordinate
and supervise the work of the several State systems and it seems
important that it should turn its attention definitely to that larger
task and leave the operation of local offices to cities and States which
are in better position to do effective work in that field.
The Federal employment system, as I conceive it, is in reality a
Federal-State-city system with each of the three governmental bodies
bearing a share in the expense involved and having definite responsi
bility for the phase of the work for which, under our form of gov
ernment, it is best fitted—the local office being developed out o f the
local community and made a part of such community by reason of a
considerable share of local responsibility; the State responsible for
administrative supervision of the State-city offices and for developing
such offices into a State system; the Federal Government responsible
for coordinating the State systems into a national system and for
such administrative supervision as is necessary to secure effective
coordination.
The employment system throughout must be worthy of the con
fidence both of management and of labor and the active cooperation
of representatives of both of these economic groups is suggested as
an aid in bringing about such conditions and insuring their
continuance.
Public attention is aroused to the need of an effective employment
system during periods of serious unemployment. The tendency at
such times is to throw an impossible task upon and to expect un
attainable results from the public employment offices. There should
be a determined effort made to develop an efficient system which could
render a badly needed service to labor and to management during
so-called normal times. Such a system would prove to be an im
portant factor in reducing involuntary idleness.
The roads before us are—to leave to a large share of those wage
earners in industrial communities who must from time to time seek
work the hopeless and time-consuming task of going from gate to
gate and from shop to shop in search of jobs; to leave them to pay
fees to private employment offices, good, bad, and indifferent; or to
seriously undertake the development of a national employment
system, thoroughly business-like in character, which will command
the support of labor, management, and the general public.
FEDERAL SYSTEM IN U . S.— DISCUSSION
167
DISCUSSION
Mr. K a u f m a n n (New Y ork). I would like to ask Mr. Kigg a
question. W ho pays the expenses of shipping men to the various
jobs out of town?
Mr. R ig g . Sometimes the applicant and sometimes the employer.
Generally the employer advances transportation, and when he does
he usually deducts it from the wages of the man. Some employers
will not advance the transportation and the man has to pay his own.
One of the terms of the agreement entered into between the Federal
Government and the Province provides that the Federal Government
reimburse the Province to the amount of 10 per cent o f the total
amount of money advanced by the Province.
Mr. H a u s m a n n (New Y ork). What type of workers is the 50
per cent who require reduced transportation?
Mr. R ig g . A great deal of the mobile labor in this country is
seasonal work lasting anywhere from three to four months—lumber
ing, railroad construction, etc. There are also many types of skilled
workers moved from one part of the country to another.
Mr. H o e h l e r (Ohio). Has the system used by the Employment
Service of Canada been effective in the movement of men from other
industrial centers ?
Mr. R ig g . Yes.
Mr. W i l l i a m s (Minnesota). I would like to know if it would be in
order for this association to send a copy of Mr. Croxton’s paper to
the Speaker of the United States House of Representatives and to
the Senate as an expression of how this group feels in regard to
the United States Government participating in employment service
work.
[A motion was made, seconded, and carried, that the committee
on resolutions be authorized to refer Mr. Croxton’s paper to the
Speaker of the House of Representatives and to the President of the
United States Senate.]
Mr. B l a k e . I think we should organize a committee and make a
personal visit. It would be more effective.
Mr. H o e h l e r . We want to create as much sentiment as possible in
the community and bring it to their attention that way.
[Meeting adjourned.]
Address of Mr. Ballantyne, at Special Luncheon
Through the courtesy of the Ontario Government a special
luncheon was tendered to the delegates at noon in one o f the private
dining rooms o f the Royal York Hotel. The speaker was Mr.
J. H. H. Ballantyne, then Deputy Minister of Labor of Ontario,
who, in the course of a spirited address, declared that unemployment
should not be given consideration only in times of acute depression
any more than a doctor would hope to get the best results from a
patient when his subject was unduly depressed. “ Any suggestion
that may come at the present time to deal with the emergency,” he
38852°—31------12
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E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A . P . E. S.
said, “ should not be regarded as the best and only way of dealing
with the problem.”
In discussing employment, Mr. Ballantyne said it had to be
realized that the mechanism of society in its industrial aspect simply
would not work satisfactorily without carrying with it a reserve
force of labor. “ This is especially true of Canada,” he explained,
“ with its many seasonal occupations. It is necessary to have a float
ing reserve ox workmen to carry on industry during the different
seasons.” He pointed out that the growth of machines like the
adding machine, which did the work of men’s brains, and did it more
efficiently, took employment from workers. This also had to be
faced.
More common sense on the part of the salary and wage earners,
Mr. Ballantyne thought, ought to aid in making depressions less
acute. “ The average man or woman to-day seldom, if ever, takes
the pains to budget his spending power,” he said. “ We get normal
or busy times because the wage and salary earner is spending a large
proportion of his salary—almost 100 per cent. More than that, he
undertakes credit and mortgages his future earnings. This is the
result of ‘ keeping up with the Joneses.’ When the wheels o f in
dustry go fast we usually find overspeculation in the stock market,
with the inevitable crash. It is reasonable to assume some intelli
gent direction might be given out by the Government and Govern
ment officials along common-sense lines which would indicate to
the wage and salary earners just what proportion of their salaries
they ought to save to keep the market moving in a more constant
manner.”
This, he thought, would be more advisable than “ allowing Tom,
Dick, and Harry to spend their wages just as they please.” The
business of a large nation ought to be operated, he believed, under
the same plan as gigantic business enterprises are operated under.
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 10, 1930— AFTERNOON SESSION
Chairman, Emanuel Koveleski, Examiner United States Employment Service, Rochester, N. Y.
The Cincinnati Plan fo r U nem ploym ent R elief
B y F red K . H o e h le r , Director Department of Public Welfare, Cincinnati, Ohio
Your invitation to address this session of your convention on the
so-called Cincinnati plan for relieving unemployment is a sincere
compliment to Cincinnati and one which we would hardly deserve
were we to be credited only with actual accomplishments.
It is unnecessary for me to say that any plan in Cincinnati or else
where has fallen far short in solving the unemployment problem.
We are really very modest in Cincinnati about this work and would
not dare to be otherwise. The Cincinnati plan, we feel, incorporates
ideas and possible remedies which are the product of the collective
thinking of community leaders in the fields of industry, government,
labor, social service, and education.
Serious thought and consideration have been given in every com
munity, during periods of depression, to the causes and effects of
unemployment. Millions of families in the United States live con
stantly under the fear of the breadwinner losing his job. Each
year many have experienced seasonal unemployment and at intervals
industrial depressions have brought more widespread unemploy
ment. The responsiblity for this unemployment has variously been
placed on the unemployed, on industry, and on governments. Only
recently have we placed the responsibility upon all three of these
groups in the community collectively.
During the depression of the early months of 1930 there were
signs of an awakened public interest, beyond anything experienced
in former years, in the regularization of employment and the causes of
unemployment. This same interest was created in Cincinnati as
early as January, 1929, when that city, like many others, was enjoy
ing a considerable amount of prosperity. The permanent committee
on the stabilization of employment, consisting o f 20 members, was
appointed by the city manager. The committee elected the city
manager, C. O. Sherrill, as its first chairman and his director of
public welfare was elected secretary, thus giving it official standing.
The committee membership, representing banking, industry, educa
tion, social service, labor, and government, determined the purposes
of the committee to be as follows: (a) To study the problems of
stabilizing employment ; (b) To create machinery to handle an un
employment emergency should one arise. The permanent committee
began working through 10 subcommittees: 1. State-city employment
service; 2. Continuous employment; 3. Temporary employment;
4. Public work; 5. Cooperation with private social agencies; 6. Budget
169
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E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
and finance; 7. State and national cooperation; 8. Transients; 9. Fact
finding; 10. Publicity and education.
The one great fact facing the committee was the absolute lack of
reliable information on employment and unemployment. The very
first step, therefore, was to secure and publish accurate and adequate
information. There was in existence no one source from which
such information could be obtained.
The subcommittee on fact finding utilized the best fact-finding
agencies in the community and began work at once. In May, 1929,
Cincinnati had its first complete census of unemployment. This was
accomplished by using the machinery created by the board of edu
cation. This body is required, by State law, to secure an annual
school-attendance census by means of a house-to-house canvass. The
board willingly gave its cooperation to the fact-finding committee
and enumerators were requested to ask a few extra questions. The
results were later tabulated in the office of the department of public
welfare. The fact-finding committee then, with a fairly reliable
census as a basis, developed current monthly figures on employment.
It was this committee which saw the tendency toward an increase
in unemployment in the summer of 1929, and so informed other
subcommittees, who began to plan intelligently to meet a situation
which was imminent.
One of the first tasks of the committee on stabilization of employ
ment was to strengthen the State-city employment bureau. A sub
committee made a series of recommendations for improving records
and methods of functioning. This committee inaugurated the
monthly bulletin in Cincinnati and has encouraged employers to use
the bureau continuously in supplying their labor needs. Regular and
constant visits to industry by members of the staff were urged and
insisted upon. The committee plans in more normal times to develop
the bureau as a center for employment clearance and employment
information.
The need for a strong Federal employment service, cooperating
with State and local governments, similar to the Federal-Provinciai
system o f Canada, was stressed in the finding of the committee early
in April of 1929.
The subcommittee on continuous employment, which was headed
by an economist and a former president of the University of Cin
cinnati, made a study of the concerns in Cincinnati to determine how
many of the industries in that city made a conscious effort to sta
bilize employment. This committee realized that it must have
available an adequate statistical and information service and a wellorganized and efficient employment exchange to serve industry in its
various employment problems. The work had barely begun when
unemployment began to grow. The first essential, then, for this
committee in dealing with an unemployment emergency was to
spread whatever work might be available to as many employees as
possible. The committee encouraged the introduction of methods
such as staggering of employment and using employees on a shorthour basis when production had to be decreased. Cooperation of
the employers was very heartening and indicates the type of interest
which will be given to this committee and its work as it continues
throughout the years. More than 50 per cent of employers reduced
hours in order to give employment to all their men.
C IN C IN N A T I PL A N FOR U N E M P L O Y M E N T RELIEF
171
Largely through the activities of the permanent committee, the
city, county, and State governmental units were active in speeding
up public works. Public improvements, which normally would have
been deferred to another time, were started during the past winter
while labor was plentiful. Plans were formulated to start other
improvements early in the spring. The city of Cincinnati and the
various city, village, and county units surrounding that city have
furnished more work for the unemployed during the past winter and
spring than they have ever furnished before under similar condi
tions. This expenditure o f public funds was not only well timed
but was according to a program well thought out in advance. Cin
cinnati and Hamilton County, Ohio, have for the past several years
operated all public improvements on a 5-year public-improvement
program. Bonds are authorized after the improvement-program
committee studies the projects, and the same committee then recom
mends and authorizes the expenditures of such bonds. This has
virtually created a public-works reserve.
The committee on temporary employment made a survey in
advance of possible jobs should an emergency arise, and set up a
large committee of over 100 members, geographically distributed.
This committee functioned in locating jobs of a temporary nature.
Those jobs were sought in and about homes or in factories or busi
ness houses. While the numbers of such temporary jobs were not
as large as the committee hoped they would be, the effort put forth
by the committee, nevertheless, was very much worth while. In
addition to the temporary jobs actually secured by the committee,
its efforts helped to create a desire on the part of the public to be
helpful and many temporary jobs, not cleared through the committee,
were given out direct to the unemployed.
After the various committees had secured all the work possible,
the residue of the unemployed were cared for through relief-giving
methods. The subcommittee on the cooperation of social agencies
was in charge o f this phase of the work. Even here the policy
of furnishing work, rather than relief, was followed out as far as
possible.
A joint committee sponsored by the public welfare department
of thp city and the community cnest operated an industrial relief
program, in conjunction with the State-city employment service.
The funds used by this committee were furnished jointly by the city
and community chest.
Heads o f resident families in the unemployed class were sent to
public and private institutions to do all types of necessary but non
competitive work which in normal times would have been indefin
itely postponed for financial reasons. These laborers were fur
nished cards upon which the employer checked the number of hours
the laborer worked and whether the work was satisfactory. This
card was returned to the industrial employment committee and the
man was paid at the rate o f 30 cents per hour. During the first few
weeks the plan was in operation the men were allowed to work on
a 44-hour-week basis. As the number of applicants increased, how
ever, it was necessary to cut each applicant to a less number of
hours per week. It was found to be inadvisable to reduce the num
ber o f hours per week lower than 24. Many of these men found
permanent employment as a result of their temporary efforts. They
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E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
were much happier and better contented in working for the things
they needed than they would have been had the money been given
to them in relief. This method was found to be not only more
effective than relief giving, but more economical. Over 3,000 fami
lies were taken care of during the past winter by this committee.
It is estimated that $200,000 will be needed to meet the relief need
o f fall and winter.
The transient problem was handled directly by the department of
public welfare, which assumed one year ago the responsibility for
handling transients. Some of these men were found temporary em
ployment in odd jobs o f various sorts, but most of them were not
looking for work or at least for more than a few days of employ
ment. During the past winter many transients were given shelter
and breakfast at the police stations, and every effort was made to
handle them by modern methods of treatment. A special study was
made of economic opportunities for colored workers.
Where it was necessary to give relief to families when the bread
winners were out of work, it was done largely through the regular
family welfare agencies, with scarcely any increase in their per
sonnel. The community chest appropriated extra funds to be used
by the private agencies on unemployment cases. These funds were
distributed weekly in advance to case workers in all sections of the
city where the unemployed lived. Due to the fact that the case
workers of the relief societies knew that absolutely necessary relief
funds with which to meet the unemployment emergency would be
furnished them by the community chest, they were able to handle
the problem of relief intelligently and much more economically than
would have been the case had these workers been without the ready
money with which to meet the emergency. The condition of panic
and uncertainty that so often exists among relief workers and their
clients in an unemployment crisis was almost entirely lacking in the
Cincinnati area during the past winter. The community chest as
sumed financial responsibility for dealing with unemployment relief
and held the private agencies responsible for carrying out an
economical and effective program.
Over 5,000 families in which unemployment was the major cause
of distress, in addition to those given industrial relief, were^ taken
care of by our private agencies during the past winter.
In April when work became more plentiful, when many of the
public and private construction programs got under way, the joint
committee on industrial relief was discontinued. Family welfare
agencies, however, are still facing an expenditure very nearly as
large as it was in the winter months.
The question of legislation as a relief for unemployment, such as
the matter of unemployment insurance and old-age pensions, has
not been discussed by the permanent committee on stabilizing em
ployment, but our program includes a thorough study of such types
o f legislation which are now in vogue, with the hope that the com
mittee might find something which it can unitedly support before
the community.
To summarize the steps taken by Cincinnati in meeting the past
winter’s unemployment emergency:
1.
A permanent committee was appointed long before any emer
gency existed, through which all efforts at stabilizing employment
U N E M P L O Y M E N T RELIEF---- DISCUSSION
173
cleared, and where plans for meeting an unemployment emergency
were set up in advance.
2. Definite effort was put forth through subcommittees to secure the
acceptance by industry of the principle o f providing work for as
many as possible, at reduced hours if necessary.
3. A committee encouraged the starting o f city, county, State, and
national public works at a time when labor was plentiful.
4. A large committee secured as many temporary jobs as possible.
5. An industrial relief program was set up that provided necessary
but noncompetitive labor to heads of families at public and semi
public institutions; the wages were paid from a relief fund.
6. A committee on transients handled the transient problem sepa
rately from the general unemployment problem.
7. A fairly well-equipped employment bureau made working agree
ments with employers of labor and kept business informed of the
quantity and kind of labor available.
8. A relief program was planned in advance with reasonable funds
guaranteed the agencies responsible for relief giving.
In brief, the Cincinnati committee brought the discussion of un
employment into the open at a time when the city was enjoying
prosperity and called for intelligent community leaders to develop
a plan to meet an emergency.
Cincinnati’s efforts during the past winter have received very wide
publicity. To the extent that this may have encouraged other com
munities to organize similar committees for stabilizing employment
we are thankful. This publicity at times has indicated greater prog
ress than we were able to mate and in some cases has led to the
belief that we have set up some miracle-working plan. Cincinnati
alone can not solve unemployment. Its many complex problems re
quire the attention of not one or a few communities, but a definite
effort on the part of every industrial center in the country and the
combined force o f the Federal, State, and local governments, work
ing and planning intelligently.
DISCUSSION
[In answer to a question of David Luten, of Indianapolis, Mr.
Hoehler stated that the Federal census of unemployed showed the
number to be 12,000, while, in addition, they had some 15,000 or
20,000 who were employed only part time. Considerable more em
ployers voluntarily put men on part time rather than lay them off
altogether. Cincinnati has less fluctuation in industry than any
other city in Ohio. A sum of $200,000 has been appropriated for
Cincinnati’s unemployment relief, and 30 cents per hour is the min
imum wage rate.]
[Mr. Luten inquired as to what steps had been taken towards
stabilization o f industry. Mr. Hoehler in reply cited the case o f
Procter & Gamble, which had a labor turnover at one time of 36 per
cent, but which they had reduced to about 2 per cent per annum.
Another case was that of the Crosley Radio Co., which suffered at
times from serious seasonal lay offs. Here was where the employ
ment bureau could function. It could go to the Crosley Co. in antic
ipation of that firm’s seasonal lay off and try to place its surplus
men in some other industry. Mr. Procter, of Procter & Gamble,
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E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L M EETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
Mr. Hoehler described as a veritable missionary in this work. Mr.
Luten was of the opinion that those industries which could not
stabilize their work were responsible for creating unemployment.]
Mr. H o e h l e r . There will always be a certain number of unem
ployed, perhaps 2 or 3 per cent. There would always be the tran
sient group which has a definite value in economics, and it would
be taken care o f by a proper system of clearance under the employ
ment service. The fertilizer industry in Cincinnati became con
scious o f the existence of the problem of seasonal work and set about
trying to solve it. This industry discovered another industry which
could dovetail in with it in the matter of absorbing each other’s
surplus workers during seasonal lay offs.
Mr. H o e h l e r . Radio talks are given which deal with various
phases of our employment work.
Mr. N e i s h (Manitoba). I do not think the rate of 30 cents an hour
compares favorably with the regular rate of 50 cents an hour.
Mr. C o h e n . I also thought the plan had a tendency to reduce
wages.
[The discussion which followed centered around the setting up
o f an industrial relief fund from which charity was paid only in
extreme cases. Instead men were sent out to do temporary but
necessary work at public and semipublic institutions. The employer
signed the cards showing the amount of work done and the men were
paid by the committee from the relief fund. To conserve this fund
and to give work to as many men as possible, a low rate of 30 cents
per hour was paid and a 24-hour week was inaugurated. This was
criticized by a number of the delegates, but Mr. Hoehler thought
it better to provide some work and money for, say, 1,000 men than
to provide good work and good money for 500 men and let the
other 500 starve or be compelled to accept charity.]
Mr. C r o x t o n . There is need for coordination. I think the system
used in Canada should be used in the United States.
[As Miss Frances Perkins was not able to- be present, Mr. Kaufmann read the following paper:]
E xpansion o f P ublic E m ploym ent Activities During
Em ergencies or Depressions
B y M iss F r a n c e s P e r k i n s , Industrial Commissioner of New York
To raise the question as to whether public employment activities
jhould be expanded in periods o f depression is very much as though
one were to question whether or not it is advisable to expand nurs
ing service in times of illness. When an influenza epidemic occurs
no one questions the necessity for more hospital beds, more nursing
service, and a general increase in the facilities for caring for this
illness.
Similarly, periods o f depression mean an enormous increase in
the number of people out of work. Obviously, if there is need of
an employment service to bring together the workers and the avail
able jobs in normal times, then there is all the more need for such
service in times of business depression. An employment service
may function fairly well in a given field during normal times
EXPAN SIO N OF ACTIVITIES DURING DEPRESSIONS
175
with a certain amount o f housing, personnel, and equipment. In
times o f economic depression, however, this same field, to be satis
factorily served, may easily need a great enlargement in all of its
facilities, both physical and personnel. It would seem, therefore,
that an employment service should be so organized as to permit of
flexibility.
Perhaps no other type o f work ordinarily within the jurisdiction
o f a labor department is so susceptible to fluctuations both in the
amount and variety o f the work which it is called upon to do. A
public employment service, therefore, to meet the peak of the de
mand made upon it, should be sufficiently elastic to permit expansion
o f all of its facilities so as to render service to the incoming hordes
of applicants. Plans for the expansion of the service should be
made in advance of the actual need for them, to avoid the mush
room growth which is peculiarly characteristic of public employ
ment services.
As all o f you are aware, it is decidedly the rule rather than the
exception that employment services are initiated only after a period
of business depression has developed and is in full force. This
necessarily means the opening of employment offices manned with
untrained and inexperienced personnel, the unsatisfactory treat
ment of applicants, and incomplete and inadequate information con
cerning registrants. These conditions are apt to discredit public
employment service among employers and employees. Employees
who have experience with such offices are likely never to resort
to them again except in dire necessity, while employers are
disinclined to repeat the experience of having ill-fitted employees
introduced into their plants.
Without expanding further upon this idea it will, I think, be ap
parent that for the best interests of the entire community public
employment services should be so conducted as to render service
in proportion to the demand made upon them.
During a period of unemployment the use of all the organized
social and civic agencies of a community is essential. I am very
fortunate to have in New York the cooperation and good will of
the welfare council. As early as May, 1929, at a conference with
the section on employment and vocational guidance of the welfare
council, in which I, as industrial commissioner, participated, it was
the consensus of opinion that the improvement of the State em
ployment service was an essential step in any intelligent long-time
employment program, as well as to have it function adequately in
times o f business depression. As a result of this conference, I ap
pointed a committee representing employers, organized labor, and
others interested in the various aspects o f employment, which has
been known as the advisory committee on employment problems.
This committee, which has been functioning since June, 1929, under
took as its first job, a thoroughgoing, impartial, and objective study
of the employment offices maintained by the State, and investigated
the present operation and possible future development of the State
employment service. New York State has, as you know, 10 public
employment offices for adults, 4 o f which are located in the metro
politan district of Greater New York and 6 in other industrial
centers throughout the State,
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E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A. P. E. S.
Through the efforts of the welfare council this committee was
privately financed. You will be interested to know that an outline
for the study made by the advisory committee was prepared by Mr.
Bryce M. Stewart, formerly a director of the employment service of
this very hospitable Dominion of Canada.
Mr. Stewart’s outline served as a skeleton around which the facts of
the committee’s investigation were collected. The work of this com
mittee was divided into two parts, a detailed analysis of the organi
zation and the operation of one of the largest offices of the bureau
and a summary of this analysis. The committee’s findings were that
the bureau’s meager appropriations, low salaries, inadequate staff,
unsuitable quarters, and the technique employed clearly showed the
advisability of the reorganization of the bureau in order that it
should function effectively during an emergency and take the lead
ership in the employment field.
The work of the staff of the bureau was further handicapped when
you consider that there are 1,149 commercial employment bureaus
and over 50 noncommercial agencies in the centers in which the
bureau operates.
The recommendations of this comprehensive report are divided
into two parts, those for immediate action and a long range 5year program.
Many of the recommendations for immediate action were of an
administrative nature, some of which were immediately put into
effect. Among the recommendations of most interest to you were
that definite provision be made for organized training o f personnel,
particularly of new employees, and that a manual of practice be
prepared. When we began the preparation of this manual we com
municated with every State having an employment service and with
Canada to inquire whether they had such a detailed manual as we
had in mind. I either regret or I am glad to say we learned that
New York was not the only State which had not developed a de
tailed manual of procedure, but I am certainly delighted to be able
to state that again the Employment Service of Canada has pointed
the way, as its manual was the only detailed one we found.
The advisory committee’s recommendations for a 5-year pro
gram are of a most interesting and constructive nature. To quote
the report:
It is not to be expected that the State can do an omnibus job to the exclusion
of the other channels of placement. The local offices of the bureau of employ
ment must, if they are to make greater contribution to the organization of
the labor market, become scientific and authoritative centers of information
on employment and industrial conditions in the districts which they serve.
In addition, they must act as the medium for bringing about coordination of
existing effective placement agencies, recognizing those agencies that are doing
honest, effective work and taking action to get facts upon which to secure
correction of existing abuses in the operation of commercial agencies. Under
this plan of operation, the State offices would assist in assembling the plans
for public works in their districts in order to determine to what extent such
public works can be used to bring about possible relief during periods of unem
ployment. They would study the problems of stabilization and regularization
of employment. They would analyze the causes of unemployment and suggest
to what extent it might be minimized. They would occupy placement fields
wherever they are not effectively covered.
To bring this about some of the committee’s recommendations
were: That the principle of intensive as against extensive develop
EXPA N SIO N OF ACTIVITIES DURING DEPRESSIONS
177
ment o f the State bureau of employment be adopted; that it be the
function of the bureau—to determine the scope of the placement
work for each o f its local offices in relation to the adequacy o f exist
ing employment facilities, both commercial and noncommercial; to
assume leadership in improving and coordinating the work of public
and noncommercial employment agencies, including those main
tained by employers and labor unions and to cooperate with accept
able commercial agencies; to serve in each center where there is a
local office as the authoritative source of information on employment
and industrial conditions as well as public-work projects so as to
assist in stabilizing employment.
Perhaps the most significant recommendation of the committee is
that one or more laboratories, or demonstration employment centers,
be established for the scientific study of the problems involved in
the operation of a public employment service, where a technique
based on all the latest principles of employment and vocational guid
ance can be developed outside of the usual handicaps which confront
a State service, this perfected technique to be made available later
for the use o f the State bureau, as a model for the reorganization of
its own procedure. It is my hope that this demonstration employ
ment center will be established within a few months.
In order to secure funds for this .laboratory, a bill was passed by
the legislature and signed by Governor Roosevelt, giving me author
ity to accept funds from private sources for this purpose.
In giving you this rather detailed description of the advisory
committee’s report, I feel I have somewhat imposed upon your time,
but I look upon this part of my activity as of great importance and
realize the significance of this report for the entire future develop
ment of public employment offices.
Early last fall, realizing that we might be confronted with a
serious unemployment situation which would mean increased
demands upon the already undermanned bureau of employment, I
made plans to transfer temporarily to the bureau workers from
other divisions of the department of labor. This plan was put
into effect early in February, 1930. These workers were put through
a short training period and then assigned to field work, interview
ing, registering, or clerical work, according to their special abilities.
Their excellent work was of great value to the bureau.
While these temporary workers helped to relieve the increased
demand upon the staff of the bureau, we realized that still more
assistance was necessary. We therefore sought the cooperation of
schools, colleges, and universities whose students were available for
part-time voluntary service. We were fortunate in being able to
attract student^ interested in economics and sociology, and many of
these students received college credit for this work.
To this group of student volunteers from Teachers’ College, New
York School of Social Work, Columbia and New York Universities,
we added during the summer students and graduates of Harvard,
Antioch, Wisconsin, Hunter, and others who were so interested in
the general unemployment situation that they were willing to sacri
fice part o f their vacation to give a valuable bit of public service
and to get a better insight into industrial conditions which would
undoubtedly prove o f value to them in their future careers. It was
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E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L M EETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
refreshing to the entire staff to see the enthusiasm these young
volunteers brought to the service. This plan of using volunteer
service has been so successful that it is our intention to continue this
method by securing different groups of students to serve continuously
throughout the year.
Cooperation o f the bureau of employment has been worked out
with many chambers of commerce, and an interesting example is a
plan which is satisfactorily working between our Brooklyn office and
the Merchants and Manufacturers Association of Bush Terminal.
You undoubtedly know that the Bush Terminal is a highly con
centrated industrial area which during normal times employs as
many as 50,000 workers. One of our staff workers has been detailed
to an office provided by the Merchants and Manufacturers Associa
tion and all industrial problems, including the engaging of new
workers for about 200 concerns, are concentrated in this office. This
cooperative employment office has to some extent stabilized the
employment situation in this locality and has been of great value
both to employers and employees as well as to the State.
As you well Know, when an unemployment situation becomes acute,
many well-meaning groups feel that the only way of handling the
problem is to open another employment office to take care of the
demands made upon them by their clients. One such group appealed
to the bureau for advice as how to establish an employment office.
Fortunately the committee having this matter in hand saw the
reasons for our stand against opening such an office. By showing
these people that another office would not create opportunities for
work for their clients but would merely mean duplication of effort
with an accompanying waste of money, we convinced them of the
wastefulness of their plan. At the same time we offered them the
opportunity of functioning through the bureau of employment by
inviting them to .locate in one of our local offices their placement
workers, whom they financed. This new departure has saved this
organization rental and overhead and has given the State an oppor
tunity of showing that its existing facilities can be expanded to meet
the needs confronting a social emergency without opening new
employment offices.
Among the serious aspects of unemployment in New York we
have, as you know, racial problems; for example, the extensive unem
ployment of Porto Ricans. The Porto Rican authorities greatly felt
the need of a specialized employment agency to meet this problem.
Through the cooperation of the welfare council, the Porto Rican
representative, and the department of labor, an office under the guid
ance of the bureau of employment placing only Porto Ricans was
recently opened in New York City.
For many years the bureau has cooperated with farm bureaus,
granges, etc. This year we put this work in the agricultural field
on a more systematic basis. For instance, in one county alone we
supplied the farmers with 200 women and girls to pick small fruits
and berries. Many New York teachers, members of the theatrical
profession, and college students were very glad of this opportunity
to tide them temporarily over a dull period.
New York State, as some of you may know, has adopted a new
policy in the handling of its junior workers. On July 1, 1929, the
EXPA N SIO N OF ACTIVITIES DURING DEPRESSIONS
179
junior placement bureau, a special employment service for boys and
girls between the ages o f 14 and 18, was made a separate unit of the
department of labor with a director of its own and is no longer a
part o f the adult employment service o f the State. This junior
bureau cooperates very closely, o f course, both with the adult em
ployment service and with the bureau of women in industry o f the
department o f labor, but its main activities are in the schools. It
now operates IT employment offices in various parts of the State and
14 o f these offices are located directly in local continuation schools.
When the results of the stock-market crash began to be apparent
last fall and calls for boys and girls became fewer and fewer, the
activities of the junior offices had also to be modified accordingly.
One of the ideas originally in the minds of those of us interested
in establishing a separate employment service for juniors in New
York State had been that such a service could probably do much,
from a long-range point o f view at least, in preventing unemploy
ment. It is a well-known fact that under ordinary circumstances
the majority o f job seekers in adult employment bureaus are the
men and women who in years past have been given no specific infor
mation or advice concerning occupations and who consequently have
no adequate training for any particular kind of work. To be sure,
at the present time many skilled workers are idle also, but ordinarily
it is the untrained and unskilled who are most frequently seeking
employment. This state of affairs being well known, there was
in the minds of those of us who planned the junior placement bureau
the hope that by more specific emphasis in the junior offices upon
the necessity for definite training, by a careful analysis of the indi
vidual needs and capacities of each child, and by supplying boys
and girls with definite information concerning certain occupations
and concerning sources of occupational training, much subsequent
unemployment might be eliminated.
As a result of the cooperation, late last fall, between the depart
ment of labor and the section of employment and vocational guid
ance of the welfare council, composed of 40 employment agencies, an
emergency program was worked out, of which one of the most im
portant features was the setting up of a central file in the bureau
of employment for recording visits to employers soliciting work
opportunities made by these cooperating agencies. * This central file
has been the means of preventing duplication o f calls upon employers
by the field workers of these employment agencies and has been the
means of putting the field work on a more systematic scientific basis.
Another important result of the cooperation with these nonfeecharging agencies through the welfare council has been the extension
o f the so-called clearance system of unused labor calls. This work
was started about two years ago as an experiment by the welfare
council, with the agreement that when the method of operating clear
ance was perfected it was to be taken over by the department of
labor on a permanent basis. The agencies reached this decision be
cause they felt that it was extremely important that clearance be
operated from an impartial place so that agencies might feel the
greatest freedom in exchanging calls. Furthermore, the agencies
realized that the department o f labor, through its employment bu
reau, was the natural leader in the field of public and noncommer
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E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
cial agencies. The operation of this system of clearance was taken
over by the State September 1, 1930.
Recognizing the need for carefully planned provisions against the
ill effects o f a serious period of continued unemployment, I realized
that the primary responsibility for maintaining a high level of
employment and with it the prosperity of our State rested upon the
industrial leaders o f the State. For this reason, early in February
I invited industrial leaders throughout the State to act as organizers
o f employment committees, which should be prepared to act for the
department o f labor during the period of readjustment. The pro
gram I had in mind for such committees was as follow s:
That before any general or local unemployment situation became
actually critical, the committees would, at the call of the industrial
commissioner, act as organizing committees, calling together execu
tives of local industries, public officials, labor leaders, representatives
o f social agencies, and the press to formulate and carry into execu
tion locally plans for getting under way public works, stabilizing
local industries, so-called small-job campaigns, carrying on and stim
ulating business to manufacture for stock or to put industry on
part time for all, instead of laying off workers. Also that these
committees would establish an employment clearing house where all
jobs and all jobless in the city could be registered and available work
distributed as fairly and impartially as possible. In the cities where
the State of New York has a public employment bureau this bureau
offered to act as such a clearing house.
The results of this program were most encouraging. For example,
among the committees formed was the Rochester civic committee
on unemployment and in Albany a committee to study employment.
The Rochester and Albany committees immediately recognized
that the work to be done was twofold in character—emergency and
permanent. These committees function along the lines I have sug
gested.
Early this year Governor Roosevelt appointed a committee on
stabilization of industry for the prevention of unemployment. This
committee consisted of leading industrialists and labor leaders with
myself as an ex officio member. The governor’s instructions to this
committee were:
I wish to stress the fact that in appointing this committee I am looking
forward to a long-time program for industrial stabilization and prevention
of unemployment. We do not expect miracles but rather we wish to assist the
employers of this State in a gradual progress toward stabilization based upon
authentic American business experience and arising out of and adapted to their
own local industrial problem and such methods as their good will and sound
business judgment may develop.
Since April this committee has called several conferences of busi
ness men, manufacturers, and industrialists who willingly, even
gladly, came together for the purpose of receiving suggestions as
to means of preventing unemployment in their plants, or of passing
on to others any valuable discoveries that they may have made in their
own business whereby adjustments to changed conditions might be
made without throwing men out o f work. Indeed, one of the most
heartening results reported by this committee was the evidence they
found that industry and commerce have learned to appreciate their
own responsibility for causing unemployment and that business men
e x p a n s io n
of a c t iv i t i e s d u r in g
d e p r e s s io n s
181
are recognizing the fact that stabilization of industry and the pre
vention o f unemployment are integral parts of the duties of manage
ment. I feel the work of this committee has been most important
in acting as a clearing house by which over 200 organizations have
brought to its attention their various methods of stabilization and
unemployment insurance. This information has been made avail
able to all interested, and the committee expects some time this fall
to be able to render a more comprehensive report on various phases
o f this problem.
At a conference of governors this summer at Salt Lake City and
recently in an address before the convention of the New York State
Federation o f Labor, Governor Roosevelt stated:
I hope that the next administration and the next legislature will take up
a practical, definite study of unemployment insurance, avoiding, of course, any
form of dole, and basing their investigation on sound insurance lines under
which the State, the employer, and the employee would all be joint premium
payers.
The leading countries of Europe long ago recognized that unem
ployment is not merely an accidental occurrence but something to be
expected from time to time and to be guarded against as one guards,
say, against bad weather. Many European countries now have
systems of unemployment insurance supported by public subsidies.
Whatever form unemployment insurance may eventually take in
this country, the system is as yet only in its beginnings. To-day, as
we approach social and industrial conditions more like those in the
countries overseas, the question of making adequate provision for
those who are forced by the fluctuations of industry into involuntary
idleness is demanding increasing attention.
Objections have been raised against the State subsidy and also
against placing the whole burden on the industry concerned. These
are matters which need to be thrashed out by a body of experts.
Governor Roosevelt’s suggestions that the next legislature and the
next administration make a definite study o f the whole problem is
sure to stimulate interest in this method o f mitigating the evil of
fluctuating employment.
At the next convention of the International Association o f Public
Employment Services I hope the representative of New York State
will be able to report progress on this very important matter.
I am strongly convinced that unemployment can be made to disap
pear from American industry. We have solved other problems.
Child labor has been cut, and the infant-mortality rate that seemed
an act of God a few years ago has been met, and we have stamped
out scourges. I believe we can reduce unemployment in our in
dustrial structure to a degree at which it would be negligible.
THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 11, 1930—MORNING SESSION
Chairman, Leo Cunningham, Superintendent Employment Service of Canada, St. Catharine's,
Ontario
Chairman C u n n i n g h a m . I take pleasure in introducing Mr. S. S.
Riddle, director of the bureau of employment of the Pennsylvania
Department of Labor and Industry, who will tell us of New Pub
licity Methods for the Public Employment Service.
New Publicity Methods fo r the P ublic Em ploym ent
Service
B y S. S. R id d le, Director Bureau of Employment, Pennsylvania Department of
Labor and Industry
Governmental agencies, created to put into effect the provisions of
legislation, fall generally into two classes: (1) Regulatory or lawenforcing agencies, and (2) agencies designed to make available to
all citizens or groups of citizens beneficial activities of service devoid
of regulatory or law-enforcement factors.
The public employment service, well defined by its title, comes
within the second classification, as the purpose of its existence is to
render a definite service to employers and to applicants for employ
ment without the regulatory or law-enforcing powers which charac
terize many other governmental agencies. From that statement are
excepted, of course, the sections of the public employment services
or bureaus which, in certain States and Provinces, may, as incidental
phases o f their work, have regulatory jurisdiction over fee-charging
licensed employment agents. For the purpose of this discussion the
work o f regulating private employment agencies will not be
considered.
The public employment service is consequently an activity of
government intended primarily to aid in stabilizing employment
conditions by providing in the several communities central employ
ment exchanges or offices where employers may file their requisitions
for workers of varied types and where unemployed persons may file
applications for employment. It is consequently definitely a service
agency.
It naturally follows that public employment offices depend in the
last analysis on local support and cooperation. I f such offices can
be built up to the status o f attracting almost all requisitions for help
from employers in their respective districts, applicants for work will
naturally patronize, and file their applications with, those employment
offices. The vital questions before all administrators of a public
employment service are: “ How can I most effectively make known to
employers, employers’ organizations, workers, labor organizations,
and the community as a whole, the service which the employment
182
NEW P U B L IC IT Y
M ETHODS
183
offices are intended to provide ? How obtain support and co
operation to the extent that the service may retain consistently such
cooperation and function to a maximum degree ? ”
The answer is almost obvious. Mainly through what we designate
by the term “ publicity ” can we first attract the attention of the gen
eral public to the service we offer, and subsequently only by efficient
operation can we develop and retain support and patronage. The
term “ publicity ” need not be defined here. It will be assumed that
we mean any activity on our part which directly or indirectly ac
quaints the general public with the purposes, activities, and coopera
tive needs of the public emplwrnent service and also with the results
achieved, indicating the benefits of the service and the right for its
existence.
The employment service under Government auspices is public be
cause it is of the people, and the quality or state of its being of the
people, or open to common knowledge, is its publicity. Conse
quently, as a general statement, one may include in the publicity
factors of an employment office its location, its general appearance,
both as to equipment and personnel, its procedure both in contact
with the public and in maintaining its records, as well as its reports,
statements, news releases, or special bulletins.
The title designated for this particular discussion is a difficult one
to satisfy, particularly in the use of the word “ new.” There is some
question whether what might be considered new methods o f publicity
in one district may not be commonplace methods in another locality.
Publicity for the public employment service must be consistent and
continuous to be effective. Sporadic campaigns may be occasionally
necessary, but even under those conditions a definite immediate pur
pose should be back of any temporary campaign, as the ultimate aim
of publicity is to obtain and to retain cooperation of the general
public.
A definite set o f constructive principles must guide the employ
ment service in its contact with the general public, which, on the
receiving end o f publicity efforts, obtains its knowledge and forms
its opinions through various means. Effective operating activ
ity with the accomplishment of results by the employment service
must follow, as a natural sequence, the public relationships stimu
lated by publicity methods or those publicity methods are without
permanent value.
It is not with the thought of outlining any original ideas to this
convention that the statement is made that publicity is separated
into three general classifications: Oral, visual, and written. It is
further admitted that in some instances a publicity method may not
be confined exclusively to any one of those three classes, but may be
found under two or even more of those separate groupings.
Oral Publicity
Publicity by the spoken word includes addresses and discussions
at conventions or meetings of the type we are now attending. It
also includes speeches and talks given in the local communities sur
rounding district employment offices, at meetings of service groups
or similar gatherings.
38852°—31------13
184
E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L M EETING ---- 1. A. P . E. S.
A new method of publicity under the oral classification has de
veloped during recent years through the widespread use of the
radio. Availability of radio transmitting stations and cooperation
on the part o f owners or managers of such stations are the first
essentials in the utilization of this medium for publicity for the
emplo3rment service. Addresses for radio transmission should be
prepared with the thought that if the station is to be retained on
the radio dials of the multitude of receiving sets during the address,
the subject matter must have some qualities to arrest and hold at
tention. The radio audience, potentially large, is however not bound
by the usual conventions prevailing in assemblages and can at its
discretion interrupt at any time a speaker without conveying any
particular affront.
Various employment services have used radio transmission with
good results. Mr. H. C. Hudson, president of this association, ad
vises me that while his own experience with radio has been somewhat
limited, he is convinced that a number of 10-minute talks on W ed
nesday night at 10 o’clock from a Toronto station have been worth
while, and it is his intention to resume broadcasting in behalf of the
employment service during September. The radio station did not
charge the usual cost of at least one dollar per minute, considering
that Mr. Hudson was rendering a public service for which there
should be no charge. The following further statement from Mr.
Hudson is interesting and of value to all of us who would have
opportunity and facilities for using the radio as a new publicity
medium:
The success of radio publicity depends largely upon the extent to which one
can get his own personality on the air, and it was always my aim to speak as
though I were talking to some definite individual in the studio. Misunder
standings are bound to arise through some one not hearing exactly what is said,
and it is essential that the speaker should keep an exact copy of his talk.
The facts given should be as definite as possible, and if one can bring in a
few humorous touches they help to hold the attention of the radio audience.
The response which always followed when definite jobs were offered over
the radio leads me to believe that the audience probably totaled 10,000 persons,
but, of course, a more powerful station could increase this number tenfold.
If one wishes to check up on the question as to whether or not anyone has
listened, it is a simple matter to do so by making controversial statements.
Telephone calls and letters, as well as personal calls at the office, will soon
convince a radio speaker that no matter what subject he talks about there
is always someone sufficiently interested to hold the wave length until he has
finished speaking.
The radio has been used in Pennsylvania on a number of occasions
in behalf of the employment service, as I know has been the case in
other States. A series of excellent discussions on employment mat
ters were recently given over a Cincinnati broadcasting station. We
have all probably had some experience in this new method of pub
licity and it is hoped that the discussion will bring further
information in this connection.
Perhaps the most convincing and lasting impressions from oral
publicity follow our personal contacts with employers and applicants
for positions, whether those contacts be by telephone, by personal
visits to the offices of the employers, or by talks with applicants for
jobs in the public employment offices. Generally speaking, such
contacts, with the coincident conversations or discussions, may not be
considered as publicity, but to the persons concerned such discus-
N E W PU B LIC ITY M ETHODS
185
sions may be o f vital importance, particularly if they be applicants
for work. The impressions made by the personnel of employment
offices in such verbal contacts are not of slight consequence to the
employment service. It is essential that every interviewer in the
employment offices be genuinely interested in the work and be capable
not only of satisfactorily meeting employers or employees in verbal
interviews, but also be qualified to discuss the aims and achieve
ments o f the employment service at any logical and proper
opportunity.
It is realized that visual and written publicity are in a measure
included in oral publicity, particularly in the transcript of the talks
given over the radio. It may be added that radio talks should be
transmitted at a time of the day when reception by persons most in
terested would be possible, not during ordinary working hours of
commercial and industrial establishments, and that the talks should
be as brief as is consistent with putting over the subject and retaining
the interest o f the hearers.
Visual Publicity
A few years ago, in a number of the States, the story of the work
of labor departments and industrial commissions was dramatized
in motion-picture films, giving visual publicity to the varied activi
ties of such departments, including the employment service. Such
films had frequent showings at certain types of conventions and
meetings and represented a valuable form of visual publicity. The
advent of the transmission of speech with the showing of nlms, in
the talking motion pictures, has in a sense made obsolete the silent
films, although they are still used and represent one of the compara
tively newer methods of obtaining publicity for the employment
service.
A series of photographs with suitable captions depicting, m se
quence episodes, the activities of public employment offices comprise
another form of visual publicity which has been advantageously
utilized, as have also charts, graphs, and tabulations of statistics.
Again, as in the case of oral publicity, what may perhaps be a
least considered publicity factor is the visual impression received
by a visitor at an employment office. All forms of publicity for the
public employment service, in the last analysis, are designed to bring
persons into contact with, if not personally into, the employment
offices. An extremely important phas.e of visual publicity is the
appearance o f the public employment office. The premises in which
the office is located, the layout o f the office, the general appearance
of the quarters, and the personnel may not be considered as visual
publicity, but nevertheless fall in such classification, as do also the
arrangement of the records in such office, although the records may
be more properly considered perhaps as written publicity when
examined or inspected by visitors, whether official or casual.
Written Publicity
Written publicity through the mediums of reports, magazines,
or newspaper articles, circular letters, and direct correspondence
comprise the most familiar forms of publicity. The text o f radio
186
E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L M EETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
talks and addresses before conferences and meetings, even though
intended originally as oral publicity, may, by subsequent publication,
reenforce the oral presentation. Wide circulation of newspapers and
magazines gives an exposure to written publicity which is lacking in
the other forms, except, perhaps, in the oral publicity attained
through radio talks. The exactness of the written publicity, provid
ing copy is carefully written and edited, is beneficial.
Published reports of the work of the employment service are the
most formal type of written publicity and in addition to providing
a permanent record of activities, are of interest mainly to students,
research workers, and officials of government.
Magazine or newspaper articles seldom deal with routine activities,
although in magazine presentation a more ambitious review o f the
underlying principles of employment work may be presented. The
unusual happenings or what may be termed “ spot news ” is, of
course, of more consequence to the daily newspapers, although vir
tually all newspapers are interested in presenting to their readers
authentic statements on employment conditions available from the
employment offices. In all such publications the editorial desk con
trols the length and character of the article to be published.
Single isolated events varying from the usual routine of a public
employment office may frequently be the basis of a news story, car
rying the name and location of the employment office and referring
incidentally to the general character of the work the office performs.
Such brief news stories serve frequently as casual reminders to the
general public of the existence of the employment office. An exam
ple of such form of incidental publicity, considered entirely apart
from the more comprehensive and constructive articles, was a recent
story regarding the request of a Pennsylvania manufacturer of
archery equipment for an experienced bowyer, a woodworker skilled
in making bows. Through cooperation of the United States Employ
ment Service such a worker was found in the New England States,
and although he was unwilling to move to Pennsylvania, the inter
esting letter he wrote on the subject generally, regarding the manu
facture of bows and other unique woodwork, made a news story car
ried by many newspapers and attached to the story was, of course,
the statement that the public employment service provided all
types of employees or obtained them through clearance methods.
Such form of publicity may seem trivial, but it must be remembered
that many employers read that article when they might not have
read a longer and more detailed account of general activities. Care
must, of course, be exercised not to release too many of that class
of articles, and also to make certain that the stories are properly
written to be interesting and not ridiculous.
The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania issues at weekly intervals a
single-page printed news sheet entitled u Capital News.” It has a
regular editor and advisory board. Its make-up is similar to that
of an average newspaper. It is sent by mail to all newspapers in
Pennsylvania and is intended to present routine news of the State
government centering in Harrisburg not covered by the press asso
ciations and the daily wire services of the newspapers. That weekly
clip sheet, for newspaper reproduction, offers in Harrisburg an excel
lent medium for dissemination of articles regarding the routine and
general activities of the bureau of employment.
N E W P U B L IC IT Y METHODS— DISCUSSION
187
Circular letters calling attention of employers to the availability
o f the employment service, small bulletins, and printed and mime
ographed pamphlets are other forms of written publicity which
should be continuously issued. Such communications should be
carefully prepared and localized to the extent of having them issued
from the district employment offices rather than from the central
State or Provincial office of the service excepting when it is desired
to convey a particular policy or idea affecting the State of Province
as a whole. Included m such letters from the local district officers
could be the qualifications of outstanding applicants in addition to
statements regarding general workers available.
A ll correspondence whether in the form of circular letters or
individual communications should be carefully prepared and typed,
as even the correspondence of a public employment office is a form
of publicity indicating the character of management and methods
of such office.
General
The public employment service, as a governmental agency, not
exercising police powers, but depending upon local helpful coopera
tion in the districts where its offices operate, requires constant con
structive publicity. The nature of its work makes its every action one
of public interest or at least susceptible to public attention and
scrutiny. Oral, visual, and written presentations, describing the
employment service and its activities, comprise the means by which
attention may be drawn to the service and cooperation obtained.
Once that cooperation is obtained from local employers, unemployed
workers, and organizations generally, the contact methods and inter
nal activities or the offices themselves comprise forms of publicity
which vitally affect the subsequent relations o f such offices with the
public.
DISCUSSION
[Fritz Kaufmann pointed out that the present time, being one of
depression, any publicity should be with the object of attracting the
notice of the employer rather than that of the employee. He cited
cases where 6,000 applicants had applied for some civic work which
had been given publicity, but when the employment office opened
there were no jobs for them; political appointees had been given all
the places. Another case was that of a department store which had
advertised for a few workers, but found some 3,000 men at their
doors clamoring for the jobs, which showed that care had to be
exercised in the matter of publicity.]
Mr. S h o r t (Maryland). I think the best form of publicity is the
service that we render to those in need of it. We are planning to
set up a free employment service in Baltimore in connection with
the chamber of commerce, and I would like to see some form of
employment tests put into operation by the public employment
service sending men out to jobs. We are setting up machinery for
testing applicants before sending them to the job. The man or
woman over 40 years o f age constituted the really great problem.
However, there have been only a few instances where the employers’
actual policy is against the employment or the reemployment of
188
E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
the older person; that is, the one over 40. Notwithstanding this
the practice is quite widespread. These older people will render a
more effective service; they will be more courteous in their treatment
of the public. Oil companies have been urged to staff their service
stations with persons over 40, and a letter has been received from
the oil trade agreeing to put this suggestion into effect. The plan
is to extend the idea to the chain grocery stores.
[The speaker inquired if there had ever been anything in the
nature of employment tests given to applicants before sending them
to the employer. J
Mr. B o t h e (New Jersey). We have found the radio a very effec
tive means of publicity in New Jersey. We go on the air every day,
sometimes twice a day. We also show movies on the screen once
a week. A very good means of publicity would be the postage stamp
cancellation idea. I f we could get the postal authorities in the
United States and Canada to place a die in their stamp cancella
tion machines all over the country which would cancel every letter
with the words “ Provide work for the jobless,” it would be good
publicity.
Mr. C r o x t o n . The reason why the employment service has suffered
so greatly is because we have always talked to each other and have
not had enough people talking about the service.
Mr. R i g g . We are doing good work, but if we could only get the
authorities to realize that the work we are doing is worth while so
that they would loosen up the purse strings. It is not so important
that we get into the newspapers, if only we could get an adequate
staff and a form of machinery capable of selling the service to the
employer. One of the things we m Canada lack greatly is that we
can not get money enough to get an adequate staff to go out and sell
to the individual employer. I was glad to note the very favorable
reference to the Employment Service Council by the Premier of
Canada. A t the trades and labor congress held at Regina, the
employment service council was referred to no less than three times
in a 1-column article in the morning paper, and the references were
extremely favorable. We can not hope, however, to have publicity
that will make everybody sit up and take notice. The foundation
principles for good advertising of our service lie in giving efficient
and satisfactory service, and no matter what other means you may
use they must be supplemented by and built upon such service.
Mr. G i l l (Indiana). Have you thought of having a film that
would describe the work o f the employment service and perhaps the
vocational service. I have seen in the States some very excellent
films of fishing scenes from Canada, and I know how aggressive
Canadian publicity departments are in getting their films down into
the States.
Mr. H u d s o n . We have good motion-picture bureaus in Canada and
Ontario. The suggestion just made is welcomed as far as Ontario
is concerned, and I have hopes of getting some such kind of propa
ganda within the next few months. However, we have had some
very sad experiences with publicity in Ontario.
BUSINESS SESSION-
189
There is nothing so difficult as getting your own ideas over to a
reporter in the way you want them. No city editor likes to accept
anything savoring of propaganda. It is not advisable to talk to a
reporter unless you have a witness with you, and do not tell anything
to reporters over the telephone, because they ought to be sufficiently
interested to come round and talk with you face to face. A telephone
interview is very unsatisfactory.
With regard to radio broadcasting, the station used was one of
only 500 watts and its radius was only about 100 miles. However,
we have developed a radio audience of approximately 10,000 persons.
As the station regards this broadcast as a public service it does not
ask for pay. Consequently we can not dictate to the station that
we wish to go on at any certain time. We have found without a
shadow of doubt that radio publicity is really worth while.
[Mr. Hudson wished to acknowledge the courtesy of Station CKCL
in putting its broadcasting studio at his disposal free o f charge.]
Mrs. L e w i s . W e are getting out a series of bulletins showing oppor
tunities for boys and girls in various occupations. In New York
City there are 10 offices which handle juvenile employment. An
employer would call up half a dozen of these offices when he had
perhaps only one job to fill.
Mr. P h e l p s . We had a 3 by 5 card printed advertising the service
and sent it to employment managers with the request that it be
posted up by the telephone. They had their men go into the plants
and study the operations, so that they might be familiar with the
type o f man desired for such jobs. We also have branch offices at
industrial exhibitions and fairs, which enables us to get jobs that we
would not otherwise get. We also arrange for publicity through the
granges, and write our own notices for publicity. I think the best
form of publicity is the service we render.
Business Session
Chairman. H. C. Hudson, President International Association of Public Employment Services
[A special report of the executive committee was received and
action taken thereon.]
[The following resolution was presented, approved, and unani
mously passed:]
Whereas stabilizing employment is one of the most important problems con
fronting this world to-day; and
Whereas it is necessary to provide proper methods for handling their problem:
Therefore be it
Resolved, That the delegates to the eighteenth convention of the International
Association of Public Employment Services at Toronto, Ontario, approve the
plan covered in the paper of Fred C. Croxton, special assistant, Department of
Industrial Relations of Ohio; and be it further
Resolved, That the secretary be instructed to send copies of this paper to the
Speaker of the House and President of the Senate of the United States <md
the chairmen of the proper committees in both Houses of the United States
Congress, so that the State service will be supplemented in working out this
problem. Copies of this resolution and Mr. Croxton’s paper to be sent to
Senator Wagner, of New York.
Chairman
committee.
H
udson.
We will now have the report of the finance
190
E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
[The finance committee recommended that the membership and
registration fees for next year be increased to $2 for membership
and $3 for registration. A motion was made, seconded, and carried
that the report be referred to the incoming executive for con
sideration.]
Chairman H u d s o n . We will now have the report o f the committee
on resolutions.
REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON RESOLUTIONS
1. Resolved, That this association extend its sincere thanks and apprecia
tion to the city of Toronto, his worship the mayor, and the board of control
for their interest in the meeting and for providing the delegates with a
sight-seeing tour around the city.
2. Resolved, That we extend our sincere thanks to the Ontario Department
of Labor, the Royal York Hotel, the press of the city, and all others who con
tributed to the pleasure of our sojourn in Toronto.
3. Whereas, There has never been an authentic history of this association:
Therefore be it
Resolved, That a special committee be appointed at this convention to compile
a complete history of this association and report to the nineteenth annual
convention.
[Meeting adjourned.]
THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 11, 1930— AFTERNOON SESSION
Chairman, S. S. Riddle, Director Bureau of Employment, Pennsylvania Department of Labor
and Industry
Chairman R iddle. The first order of business on the program is an
address by Mr. J. G. Clark, store superintendent Robert Simpson Co.
(Ltd.), Toronto, on How the Employment Service Can Best Serve
the Employers of Labor.
H ow the E m ploym ent Service Can Best Serve the
E m ployers o f Labor
By J. 6 . C la r k , Store Superintendent Robert Simpson Co. (Ltd.) of Toronto,
Canada
It is a pleasure for an ex-employment manager to have this oppor
tunity o f speaking to a gathering whose daily task is to combat the
growing social evil of unemployment. Every day our newspapers
show the growth o f unemployment, and the statistics published are
quite staggering.
The staff of public employment offices will naturally have to bear
the burden of meeting daily hundreds of people desperately anxious
for immediate employment and with no sense of security for their
future.
Public employment offices are needed in the world to-day a£ they
never were before. Overproduction, stock-market depressions, re
trenchment on the part of big business houses, hand-to-mouth buy
ing, variation o f seasonal business—these factors have all contributed
to our present unemployment situation.
When I first started doing employment work, full of enthusiasm
and impractical ideas, I was inclined to treat every applicant as my
personal responsibility, and tried to run the employment office as
an agency for the unemployed rather than for the purpose for which
it was created—finding the best possible help for my employers.
Experience soon taught me to be more practical, but I am thank
ful to say we still preserve in our employment policy a real human
interest. We are fortunate in having, as head of the company I
represent, a president who has a keen personnel slant and who is
interested not only in the welfare of his employees but in all
mankind.
Coming from such a background, it is with some trepidation
that I address men and women who are from day to day confronted
with the most unpleasant aspects of industrial life. I can well
picture the scenes which must occur daily in your offices.
The number of applicants which could be classified as casual labor
who apply to us is large enough to be embarrassing at times and
Government employment offices must constantly be flooded with
them.
From my experience as an industrial, or rather commercial, em
ployment man, and as a citizen, I am firmly convinced that there is
191
192
E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L M EETIN G ---- 1. A. P . E. S.
no money spent by governments for any better purpose than the
provision of the means of finding employment for the workless. It
would be better if a great deal more money were spent in this
direction.
In order to serve employers of labor efficiently all public employ
ment services should first of all be properly organized. Physical
layout of offices used for this purpose should be such as to provide
satisfactory interviewing conditions. I f an applicant at any em
ployment office is not accorded a full opportunity to state his or her
qualifications and the interview is handled in a perfunctory man
ner, lack of confidence and resentment follow. Some employment
offices are so laid out physically that it is almost impossible for the
interviewer to work efficiently.
When applying at a commercial house each applicant believes he
is entitled to an interview in privacy.
Personnel and Interviewers
Interviewers in a public employment office should be very care
fully selected. To the applicant they represent the person delegated
by the Government to help him get a job. The interviewer should
preferably have experience in the class of work for which he is
making selection. He should have keen observation and analytical
ability, tact, and patience. It is not necessary for him to be a psy
chological expert, a graphological expert, or any other kind ox an
expert. These so-called experts will make as many or more mis
takes than he will, but he must have judgment. Interviewers should
not be appointed through political influence, regardless of their
qualifications for the work.
I suppose on this point I am treading on dangerous ground. I
have always taken the stand in our own organization that if a
person has qualifications which were needed in our business our em
ployment manager has sufficient discernment to discover them. I
consider it detrimental to proper selection to apply any pressure
which would cause him to accept or reject an applicant.
At the present time public employment interviewers must con
sider the need of the applicant, but this consideration should not
affect their judgment to the extent* of sending to any employer an
applicant who is not qualified, by experience (if necessary),
physique, or mental capacity, adequately to fill the requirements of
the job. It is prejudicial to the standing of public employment
services with employers to send to them applicants below their stand
ards. Therefore it is imperative that the public employment serv
ices establish such a contact with employers as will establish mutual
confidence.
How can this be done ? When the local offices were started it was
the practice to send out scouts to the employers to establish and main
tain contact. I can not tell you the results of this arrangement
because you are the best judges of that, but I know this procedure
was instrumental in placing some employees in our business who are
still there.
Would it be possible for Government employment men to meet
monthly with the people engaged in industrial employment work?
H O W ^BEST TO SERVE EM PLOYERS OP LABOR
193
I am quite sure the industrial employment managers who have no
association o f their own would be sufficiently interested to attend
and the contact should be valuable.
I believe it is really necessary for public employment offices to
advertise and sell their services to employers. Otherwise they are
in the position of merchants who have large stocks of goods on
their shelves and nobody coming into their stores to make purchases.
Every employer is interested in finding the best possible people
to work for him. Without proper contact you can not find out exactly
what his requirements are and what openings are likely to occur.
After an applicant is sent to an employer an inquiry should cer
tainly be made as a whether or not the applicant is satisfactory.
As the best basis of judging employers’ requirements of standards
you should secure from them application forms wherever they are
in existence.
I believe much can be accomplished by public employment services
in a study of casual workers who frequently apply at their offices,
with a view to placing them permanently. You must in many cases
place the same applicant several times during the course of the year.
You may help the large employer of labor by vocational direction.
Choice of vocation is a universal problem, one of the most serious
questions confronting every young person is, what vocation shall I
enter ?
A few people select an occupation at an early age and adhere to
their decision, but the number is small and the majority drift along,
take the first job they can get, and when they find it disagreeable and
unsatisfactory they leave it and hunt for something else.
For years they drift along from one job to another, always seeking
and never finding joy in their work. I f they do stick to a job they
do so because they are afraid to leave it or because of family respon
sibilities. Millions of people are vocationally misplaced, causing the
most serious wastage we have in the world to-day—wastage in human
beings. This is one o f the causes of your continuous stream of ap
plicants for casual work. Government employment offices are not
equipped to handle such a problem, but they must face the results of
its existence.
Parents do not supply this direction to children. Schools do not
supply it. To whom is a young person starting out in life to turn
for this direction? Some people seek the help o f fortune tellers.
We have, or did have, a phrenologist who advertised his ability to
supply vocational direction. A person has to make the decision as
to his own career himself but he must have help to do it.
I believe Government employment officers should make strong
representations to the heads of their respective labor departments of
the need for vocational guidance so that the subject may receive atten
tion in the schools. Children, in their last year or two in schools,
should be taught to study the occupations ox the world to see what
they are. They should be taught some simple plan of self-rating or
self-analysis. Observation should be made o f their special talents or
capabilities, occupational likes or dislikes, and finally there should
be placement officers who would assist them to find the right place.
Then they will at least have a purpose or objective. The ranks of
casual labor are full of men who were unable to plan ahead.
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E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L M EETING ---- 1. A. P . E. S.
DISCUSSION
Mr. S h o r t . We are making a study in our community o f jobs
which the graduates of business colleges and technical schools may
enter.
Mr. D o b b s (Ontario). Last spring, in cooperation with the Big
Brother movement and other organizations interested in boys’ work
we interviewed the board o f education in respect to appointing voca
tional advisers in the various schools as well as setting apart certain
classes along the junior vocational school idea. The board of educa
tion promised to take action, but so far has done nothing in the
matter.
Mr. S h o r t . I am unwilling to see a free employment service
started in Baltimore until we can set up machinery to determine in
advance the qualifications of the applicants for high-grade positions.
Mr. B o t h e . In our community the graduates o f business colleges
and technical schools are nearly all absorbed in industry as they
leave the schools. Various clubs take it upon themselves to direct
the applicants to the positions most suited for them. We have a
rule in our office that applicants whom we place must notify the
office when they are leaving a position, so that we can make another
placement.
Mr. C u n n i n g h a m (Ontario). I think the system of properly inter
viewing an applicant is a sufficient test to find out if he is properly
qualified for the job in question. Ask him where he worked last,
how long he was there, and why he left. In this way we eliminate
the chaff from the wheat and send the best man to the job, but leave
the final choice to the superintendent of the firm. After the man has
had time to report to the job, we call the firm and ask if the man
sent is suitable. I f he is, the placement is put in the records; if not,
we send another. For the nigher-grade positions an application
form is supplied the applicant, and this form when properly filled
in is submitted to the employer and he makes his own decision.
Mr. H a u s m a n n (New Y ork). For the past 15 years New York
State has been doing this selection o f applicants. The average em
ployment clerk who has a special task to perform soon learns to
become an expert in deciding on the type of work a man is best
fitted for. It would be impracticable to give tests to each person who
applies for a job. Time would not permit of this. The employer
is usually in a hurry and thinks you have what he wants in a package
on the shelf all ready to hand out. A good employment clerk soon
acquires an intuitive knowledge for the selection of applicants and
can decide in 10 or 15 minutes whether a man is really a tool maker
or a die maker, etc. Giving tests would only be creating a lot of
extra work without getting anywhere. The employment office is
continually taking men from casual jobs and putting them into some
permanent employment, in this way acting as vocational adviser.
Mr. C l a r k . As a former employment man I have, in the capacity
of vocational adviser, diverted many a young man and girl from
clerical to other work more fitted to them.
E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L M EETING-----1. A. P . E . S.
195
Some Aspects o f V ocational Education in Relation to
Em ploym ent
By Dr. 6. E.
R eaman,
Superintendent Training School for Boys, Bowmansville,
Ontario
The underlying factor for all our activities in vocational educa
tion is human good. I f we had time to consider each individual
case we might get somewhere, but the problem is so great that we
have to deal with it otherwise, and until we have the time to deal
with the question individually, we will always have unemployment.
It is too late to start with the adult, but we can start with the young
people. Education is the means to employment and employment
the means to an end.
At our institution we try to think in terms of the individual.
You can not deal with individuals by treating them in mass. Busi
ness has demanded production, but it is forgotten that the human
element is the determining factor and must always be so. We have
been thinking that we were riding on the crest of the wave, but now
we are in the depths of it. This neglect of the individual brings
catastrophe to a great many people, and it remains for some group
to raise its voice to make a demand for the consideration of the
individual which eventually may tend to overcome the stampedes
which occur. The enjoyment of work is necessary for every individ
ual—the joy which comes from doing a job.
Education, to me? is more than getting a certain amount o f train
ing. There is a difference between training and education. You
can train a man or a child, and you can also train a dog. You can
educate a child too, but you can not educate a dog.
As we all know, there is a great trend toward vocational training.
We must not treat education per se as a panacea for something we
do not want to happen later m life. We have to use education in
a broad sense. This is applicable to you in the employment service.
You get the results o f our educational methods whether it be good
or bad, and you are in a strategic position to know if the product of
our schools is as it should be. What does the employer look for?
He looks for a proper attitude towards the job. He wants a boy to
be agreeable, not a grouch or a trouble maker. He wants him to
have ability; not only ability but reliability also. He does not want
one who knows it all, one who is unable to learn any more—who
has a closed attitude o f mind and is not teachable—for each firm
teaches its own system whether it be accountancy or something else.
There must also be “ sticktoitiveness.” An employer looks for
loyalty, too, and loyalty starts from within the individual himself;
it is not acquired from without.
What is the boy, the young man, or the young woman looking
for? A boy may have the right attitude, but the employer may
not. Every young person is something o f an idealist. There must
be some incentive, and unless we get a “ kick ” out of the thing, we
are doomed. They must be able to see some way out, some indica
tion that they are not in a dead-end job. The employer should take
a fatherly attitude toward his employees. It is not necessary to
196
e ig h t e e n t h
annual
m e e t i n g ---- 1.
A. P. E.
s.
belong to one o f the service clubs in order to help others, because
each employer has people in his own employ for whom he is in
some measure responsible.
Employers are warned when a boy is sent to them not to spoil
him. I f he is late call him to task for failing the very first time.
Do not let him get away with it for a moment.
I f we are in this business of living to help other people, then em
ployers ought to take a fatherly interest in their people, not from
any philanthropic motive, but simply as fair dealing. I f only from
an economic standpoint, he should see that there is a contented at
mosphere, and he will then get loyalty and esprit de corps.
The best thought in the country is being devoted to the problem
presented by the delinquent youth. Generally these lads are the
victims o f circumstances, though the wayward spirit often has a
great deal to do with their condition.
We have got to think of children in terms of human beings, not
o f truants. Boys are sent to us with court cases as long as your
arm, and these boys come from an environment where they have
been “ fed up ” with school. However, we refuse to look upon them
as delinquent boys. Stealing apples was good fun for us some years
back, but nowadays a boy is brought up before the court for
indulging in this sport.
A boy who is teachable, who has ability, and who has u sticktoitiveness ” is of more value from the standpoint of an employment
agent or an employer himself. I f boys are willing, you can make
something of them, but they have to be taught punctuality and re
liability and to be clean and decent in habits; a boy is not naturally
so, and therefore he requires training. Because boys get a “ kick ”
out of reprehensible things we must put an equal “ kick ” into the
things that are useful. You must teach him self-discipline and
self-control.
W e tell a boy on entering our school, “ Here is the bill of fare,
get busy and sample everything.” After six weeks are nearly over,
both the school and the boy himself can tell what he is good for.
We teach him character-building trades.
The whole psychology of the Bowmanville Institution is “ get
out,” and I am opposed to keeping boys there long. There is a
psychological moment when the boy is at the peak of his enthusiasm
to make good. And if you do not get him out then he sags and
you have trouble with him. There is also the temptation to keep
the boy at this very time, just when he will do things without
supervision. But that is the time when he ought to go.
DISCUSSION
Mr. Eoss. Should discipline be taught in the schools or at home?
Doctor R e a m a n . It should be taught at home, but the schools have
had to take it up. Children are tolerant of discipline at home, but
when they come to school there is a change in them. The question
is, How can that child learn to get along with a group unless he
goes to school and comes in contact with others there ?
[In reply to a question raised by Mr. Phelps, Doctor Reaman
stated the school had a placement supervisor, though it has fre
VOCATIONAL EDUCATION---- DISCUSSION
197
quently used the services of the employment offices. It also had the
active cooperation and support of the service clubs throughout tlie
Province in the matter of securing jobs for its boys.]
We are really only feeling our way in this placement work. I
suppose we ought to hand this over to the employment service, and
I am willing to do so if only for the purpose of making contacts.
Our intention is to make contact with each employment office
throughout the Province, and we hope to give you the opportunity
o f placing those whom wTe have trained. We say to each boy:
“ Here are our facilities to help you. I f you don’t like it. here, get
squared away so that you can get out as soon as possible.” We do
not believe in having boys remain long at the school, because it has
a tendency to institutionalize them. We are therefore opposed to
keeping them for any length of time. Our policy is to prepare them
for life in the world outside the school, and to this end we aim to
get them away from the school as soon as possible. It is just ruina
tion to a boy to institutionalize him. Life then becomes just a mat
ter of handouts, so that he becomes lost when put out into the world
and thrown on his own resources. He becomes so accustomed to
the routine that he is unable to do anything for himself.
[Meeting adjourned.]
FRIDAY SEPTEMBER 12, 1930—MORNING SESSION
Chairman, Harry Lippart, Superintendent Milwaukee Employment Office
Chairman L i p p a r t . We are to hear an address this morning on
the Placement of Handicapped Workers, by Mr. John Aubel Kratz,
chief vocational rehabilitation, Federal Board for Vocational Edu
cation, Washington, D. C.
Placem ent o f Handicapped W orkers
John
A
ubel
K
ratz,
Chief Vocational Rehabilitation, Federal Board for
Vocational Education
The national program of vocational rehabilitation o f disabled per
sons was inaugurated in the United States on June 2, 1920, through
an act of Congress which provides for promotion o f the work by the
Federal Government. Prior to this time but six States had initiated
rehabilitation services, although their programs had been in operation
for only a short time when the national act was passed. The purpose
o f the Federal legislation is to provide for promotion of the work in
the States, (1) through financial aid, and (2) through a service of
research and assistance which enables the States to make their work
more efficient than it might otherwise be.
Forty-four States now have rehabilitation legislation. There are
good prospects that the remaining four States will secure legislation
in the next year or two.
Since the inception of the national program, the cooperating
States have rehabilitated over 45,000 physically disabled persons who
were vocationally handicapped. These persons were rehabilitated
in a great variety of occupations, ranging from unskilled to highly
skilled labor, from various types of independent employment to the
professions and other highly technical occupations.
A ll types of the disabled are eligible for service, no matter what
the origin of the disability. The service is made available to both
those who have had and those who have not had vocational experi
ence. About 165 State workers are employed. Experience has amply
demonstrated that it is possible to rehabilitate a disabled person
at a cost o f less than $300, a significant accomplishment when con
trasted* with the annual cost, $300 to $500, of maintaining a de
pendent person at public expense.
State rehabilitation departments aim to make their service to the
disabled state-wide in its scope and available to all types of the
disabled. In addition, they make their programs effective through
cooperation with other public, and with private, agencies that serve
the handicapped. Naturally the fundamental and major objective
is to bring about the vocational adjustment or readjustment of the#
individual. A ll incidental services must be directed to that end.
In a complete rehabilitation program, however, the State depart-
198
PL A C E M E N T OP H AN DICAPPED WORKERS
199
ment assumes full responsibility for the end results in each case
rehabilitated.
There is but one plan of operative organization in the rehabilita
tion program o f the several States. Experience has demonstrated
the futility o f attempting to rehabilitate the disabled in groups.
Owing to great variation in age, education, experience, capacity,
degree of disability, and the like, each case presents a specific prob
lem which demands its own particular solution. Again, State reha
bilitation departments do not establish institutions, schools, or
special facilities. Rehabilitation is accomplished through a utili
zation of many already available facilities and services. The State
rehabilitation department acts, as it were, as a liaison officer between
the disabled person and such public and private facilities as will
work to the end of effecting his rehabilitation. The kernel of re
habilitation service is assistance through vocational advisement and
cooperation in the accomplishment of definite objectives.
There are six fundamental elements in the process of rehabilitating
a disabled person, listed as follow s: 1. A survey of the case; 2. The
selection o f a job objective; 3. Preparation for the job selected; 4.
Supervision during entire period of rehabilitation; 5. Placement in
employment; 6. Follow-up in employment.
Counsel and advisement constitute a vital factor in each of these
elements. Time does not permit me to describe these six steps. The
principal points which I desire to make in this connection are (1)
that the rehabilitation service is a case-work undertaking, and (2)
that it is accomplished in all cases through certain logical and some
what technical progressive steps.
It should be noted here that placement in employment is always
the final objective in vocational rehabilitation. No disabled person
can be considered as having been satisfactorily rehabilitated unless
he has been placed in remunerative employment consistent with his
capacities and potentialities. Placement is the test of rehabilitation.
Many problems confront the rehabilitation worker when he under
takes to place disabled persons. The first and perhaps major diffi
culty is the prejudice o f employers. They either do not know that
the disabled can be fitted to engage in work in competition with ablebodied persons, or they have some prejudice against the disabled as
a group. Education will eventually obliterate these prejudices and
misconceptions. This educational process can be expedited through
demonstrations o f what the disabled can do after receiving the re
habilitation service. I can not, however, presume that this audience
is not familiar with attitudes o f employers.
Granting that the employer is favorable to employing a disabled
person, we may well inquire as to what major factors should be
considered in the placement of disabled persons. The first essential
is “ knowing the man.” The second is “ knowing the job.” No
placement officer can hope ever to make sound and lasting placements
of disabled persons unless he takes the time and trouble to study
and analyze the individuals themselves. Many things about such
persons, or the able-bodied for that matter, must be known before
even a clue can be secured as to the most suitable employment objec
tives. A successful rehabilitation worker, therefore, is one who makes
38852°—31------14
200
E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L M EETIN G— I. A. P . E . S.
a careful study of his client, just as the physician who is most success
ful is the one who knows his patient. In knowing your disabled
person, you frequently have to go to others to get information. All
available fruitful sources must be thoroughly explored for data and
information. Suitable jobs and disabled persons can not be brought
together unless a great deal is known about both. In placing the
disabled, no investment of time brings bigger dividends than that
required in a thorough study of the man.
The second factor is a thorough knowledge of jobs by the worker
who could place the disabled. This procedure presents quite as many
difficulties as does the process of knowing the disabled man. But
how can a placement officer make effective placement if he is not
familiar with job opportunities? And this is not all. How can a
disabled man or woman be successfully placed if the officer is not
familiar with the requirements of various jobs and with conditions
which surround the various types of employment? I appreciate
that I am setting up a big order, but I know o f no “ royal road ” to
placements.
I know you will be interested in a study made about a year ago
in the city of Minneapolis, Minn. A private agency in that city
made a survey of local employment opportunities for the disabled.
It was completed in five months at a cost o f $4,542.72. One hundred
and twenty-one occupations, representing 2,515 jobs, were studied
with regard to 28 specific disabilities. Therefore, 70,420 theoretical
employment possibilities were considered. O f this number, 28,573
jobs were found which offered possibilities of employment for persons
with physical disabilities. Out of the total of 28,573 jobs which
offered possibilities of employment for an individual having one or
more specific handicaps, 13,847 jobs were found which could be
performed without reservations, and 14,726 jobs were found which
could be performed with reservations.
As a result of this study, there was established in Minneapolis
a placement agency for the handicapped. It has been in operation
for less than a year, but has placed on an everage o f 20 persons per
month. The director in charge has advised me that one of the
outstanding results of the survey has been to overcome, in a number
o f instances, prejudices of employers against taking disabled men
and women into their employ. This prejudice, as I have said, is one
of the most difficult obstacles the placement officer has to overcome.
Success in this respect can be achieved best through personal contact
with the employer or his representatives.
From what I have said before this audience will readily under
stand why I am of the opinion that placement of the physically
disabled can be most efficiently carried out only through the estab
lishment of a special agency for doing the work. This service calls
for the practice of a special technique, for special qualifications on
the part of the personnel who do the work, and the carrying out of
special methods required by the service. I regret that I do not have
the time to develop this point. Suffice it to say that our experience
in the rehabilitation field amply demonstrates the soundness of my
contention; and experiences by several central placement bureaus
for the handicapped, set up in New York, Chicago, Minneapolis, and
possibly other cities, have shown this to be true. Again, there is the
h a n d ic a p p e d
w o r k e r s — d is c u s s io n
201
justification o f experience in all fields of human endeavor, that where
a special agency is set up to accomplish a particular result, that
objective is more likely to be accomplished than if it is everybody’s
business.
In closing, I desire to call your attention to the need for and
possibilities o f cooperation between public employment offices and
State rehabilitation departments. The chief function of the latter,
as has been said, is to adjust the disabled to remunerative employ
ment. This must always be done in cooperation with many kinds
o f agencies. Fitting for and adjustment to employment always find
expression in placement as the final service. There are always two
agencies involved; sometimes three participate—the disabled person
himself, the rehabilitation department, and some other agency, be
the latter a placement or training agency. Many times, after prepa
ration, the disabled person needs the assistance o f the rehabilitation
department or of a placement agency. Here is where you can help.
Your services frequently know of opportunities where special types
o f persons are needed. On the other hand, the rehabilitation depart
ment is in a position to provide certain services which you can not
perform for certain cases. It behooves both o f you to work together
and to help one another. Here are real possibilities for cooperation
that will make your respective services more complete and more
efficient.
DISCUSSION
Mr. B o t h e (New Jersey). The Ford industry is constantly on the
alert to change the machinery around to fit the man, not the man to
fit the machinery. I think it would be a good thing to invite some
o f the employers to attend future meetings of this kind, and hear
what is being done and to give their testimony as to what their own
plants are doing in the matter of giving employment to handicapped
workers. A telephone company which selects nothing but the physi
cally fit could, we thought, use many of these handicapped persons,
and we commenced a campaign to show that it would not be unprofit
able to it to make use o f these people. There should be equal oppor
tunity to all handicapped workers if they are capable o f doing the
work.
Mr. S h o r t . What is the attitude of the employer toward the handi
capped worker with regard to insurance and compensation?
Mr. K r a t z . He is prejudiced against assuming what he considers
an additional risk when he employs a handicapped man.
Mr. S h o r t . Have you thought out a plan so that the employer is
not embarrassed ?
Mr. K r a t z . The usual method is to create a second-injury fund
for the purpose o f providing for the last or second injury con
tingency.
Mr. R ig g . Does the second injury affect the employer to any great
extent ?
Mr. K r a t z . Only about 1 per cent of the handicapped workers are
injured the second time. The risk of second injury is more or less
a notion and not a fact.
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E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L M EETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
Mr. D obbs. I would like to introduce Mr. Mundy, Mr. Doherty,
and Mr. Blanchard, three members of the handicap section of the
Toronto office. A ll three are ex-service men and are themselves
handicapped. I would like Mr. Mundy to tell this meeting some
thing of the work of Mr. Klunk, who is totally blind.
Mr. M u n dy . May I say at the outset that to my mind Mr. Klunk
is one of the most wonderful men I know. He was secured by the
Canadian National Institute for the Blind some four or five years
ago—from Philadelphia, I think—to help with the placement of
blind people in industry. Capt. E. Baker, superintendent o f the
institute, asked for the cooperation of the handicap section of the
Toronto office in introducing Mr. Klunk to employers who might
be interested in employing blind people, and with this object in
view brought Mr. Klunk to our office. I believe I have neglected
to tell you that Mr. Klunk is totally blind, as is Captain Baker also.
The names of various local firms were given to Mr. Klunk, and
it was suggested that a representative of our office accompany him
until he, a stranger to Toronto, was at least familiar with its topog
raphy. To this he would not listen for a minute, stating that if
he did not at the moment know how to get around he would quickly
find out. He started out the next day, and in turn called on every
firm given him. Not only did he make an appeal for placement, but
he actually demonstrated to the employer that in certain types of
jobs blind persons were actually as adept as persons with sight. He
would go to a firm and actually run a machine to show that the blind
could do it. That calls to mind one placement he made with a firm
making tile, in Swansea. He had the firm adjust one o f its machines
a little, and the man placed by Mr. Klunk some three years ago is still
employed by it and doing equally as good work as his sighted
neighbor.
Since that time he has traveled all over the Dominion on this work,
and although I have not seen him for some time, Captain Baker
informs me that he is continuing to do as good work as ever in the
placement of the blind.
Mr. B othe . I have found in the majority o f cases that the man with
a disability can not command the same salary as the fit man and
has to accept as much as 5 cents an hour less. I know one man who
had six fingers on each hand, and the most extraordinary thing about
it was that he could use them efficiently and was getting 5 cents an
hour more than his neighbor.
Chairman L ippart . I will now call on Mr. Walter A. Selkirk,
superintendent o f the Hamilton zone office, Employment Service of
Canada, who is to give an address on The Attitude of the Local
Superintendent.
The Attitude o f the Local Superintendent
By
W
alter
A.
Se l k ir k ,
Superintendent Employment Service of Canada,
Hamilton, Ontario
In discussing with you the subject of the attitude of the local super
intendent, I will divide it into two parts: (1) As toward the appli
cant; and (2) toward the employer.
ATTITU D E OF LOCAL SUPERIN TE N DE N T
203
I believe you will all agree that the way we treat the applicant is
just as important as our attitude toward the employer, placement only
being posssible if the right applicant is procurable, and in order to
get him or her our offices must be popular with the public.
You have probably all been told at some time or other, when dis
cussing your *work with one of the public, “ Why, I always thought
you placed only laborers.” This is one of the reasons why our atti
tude to those applying for work is extremely important, because em
ployment is a subject that is always being discussed among the
working classes, and your treatment of an applicant applying at your
office may be the means of giving you and your office a good or
a bad reputation.
In order rightly to serve applicants we must bring ourselves to their
level. Clothes do not make a man nor a woman, and no matter how
ragged and dirty one of them may appear when applying, he or she
should receive the same courteous treatment that one would give
to his own friends and family.
While reading the life story of Sir Thomas Lipton recently I was
agreeably surprised to find that the first job that he got when he
emigrated from Scotland to the United States was through an
employment office in New York City, and although he was sent down
South and stayed several months, when he wanted a change of job
he went all the way back to the same office in New York City to get
another, in which he was successful. Surely he must have been well
satisfied with his treatment when he would travel this far back to
get another job, when no doubt he could easily have secured employ
ment nearer at hand.
Little did the clerk at the desk in that employment office know
that he was starting off a man in a new country who would make
such a name for himself in the world and gather together such a
large fortune. I am using this illustration to remind you of the
great part you may play in mapping out a future for a man or
woman. When you select, or even register, an applicant the way
you speak to him and how you receive him registers immediately
on his brain, and the way you have treated him or her may have a
great deal to do with how he or she tries to fill the bill when sent
to a job. Only a few days ago a man returned one of our intro
duction cards which had been issued to him in August, 1928, when he
had been sent to a job. On the clerk appearing rather suprised, he
informed him that he had carefully preserved the card in case he
ever had to come back to the office, in order to prove that he had
endeavored to give satisfaction. Surely when we are held in such
high regard by our applicants we must be willing to give them the
best we have in us also, and not treat them in a careless, haphazard
manner.
Several years ago, before I assumed the responsibility o f being
superintendent, I had a great habit of whistling while at the regis
tration desk (which I might mention my superintendent never ob
jected to as long as I did not whistle the same tune too many times,
when he did object). One day while quite unconsciously indulging
in this favorite pastime, an applicant loudly remarked in front of
many others who were waiting, “ It’s all right for you, with a good
job, to stand there whistling, but I bet you wouldn’t if you were on
204
E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L M EETING — I. A. P . E. S.
this side of the counter.” I was so completely taken by surprise that
before I could think up a suitable reply the man next to him said,
“ What do you want him to do, cry ? Why, when I leave home and
my wife is nagging at me for not having a job, it does me good to
come here and see some one a little bit happy. Let him whistle if
he wants to.”
So I learned another lesson. I learned what it means to treat
a man cheerily when he applies for employment and how we should
E ut ourselves in his place—not treat him like a piece of machinery,
ut enter right into his life—help these applicants to solve their
problems and thereby make our offices popular and of some real use
to them. In order to do this it is also necessary to listen sometimes
to little problems connected with their lives that do not necessarily
concern employment. In one day recently, I was called on three
times in such matters. The first was the mother and daughter of
a man who had at one time registered with us and who had pur
chased a secondhand electric stove, which after getting home they
discovered was no good, and when the man they had purchased it
from refused to take it back they came to us for advice as to what
to do. The second case was that of a little Scotch chap with a
note from his mother to ask if we could get him a pair of pants as
his own were all holes, which, judging from appearances, was quite
true. The third was a man who had met with an industrial
accident, but had not enough education to complete his forms of
application for compensation. Add to these countless inquiries
from ex-soldiers as to whether we think they might get a pension,
or whether they can get an increase, and I feel sure that you will
all agree that not only should we be looked on as in the position of
superintendent of an employment office, but also as a kind of big
father to a very large family; and while all this may take time that
should be spent on the all-important work of securing employment,
I believe it is more than repaid by the confidence the public places in
us, and therefore more firmly cements the tie of helpfulness and
friendship between the employment service and the people whom we
serve.
I find, i f one has the time at his disposal, that much valuable in
formation can be gained from applicants which will greatly assist
superintendents in selecting workers for jobs of a similar nature
which may eventually come in as orders, by discussing with them
their particular line of employment while registering at the office.
New methods of manufacture and new forms of employment are
continually taking place, and although superintendents can keep
pace with these by visiting the various plants, much more definite
information can be gained by talking with the actual workers
themselves.
Superintendents can also be of great assistance to the applicants
by keeping in close touch with all the various organizations o f their
cities. Too much stress can not be laid on such points as these—
the obtaining of transportation; the securing of a grant from a
welfare organization until a worker receives some pay; obtaining
clothing to make him presentable; or getting a visiting housekeeper
to attend to a sick wife or husband in order that the worker can leave
the house to earn the necessary living*
ATTITU DE OF LOCAL SU PERIN TE N DE N T
205
It seems to me that these are only a few of the ways in which a
superintendent can and should assist the applicants with whom he
has to deal; and while of course all this takes time, more than often
he is well repaid for the trouble he goes to by the splendid coopera
tion he receives from these workers, who appreciate the time spent
on them and often go out o f their way to notify the office of any job
they happen to hear of, or they tell other workers, or even employers,
o f the favorable way they have been treated and so provide good
publicity for the office.
We should also not be reluctant to impress on workers the neces
sity of maintaining a clean appearance and o f conducting themselves
properly while discussing employment with a possible employer.
Often when I have called in a worker to be interviewed by an em
ployer, almost the first thing he would do would be to reach down
in his pocket and bring out and light a pipe or a cigarette, probably
blowing the smoke in the employer’s face, and at the same time take
up a lounging position, or if possible seating himself on the nearest
table or desk. When I have mentioned these things afterwards to
the applicant, often he has seen the sense of the argument and prob
ably would not let the same thing occur again.
While these may seem small matters I can assure you that in these
days of competition and of efficiency experts they are quite important,
ana no worker can afford to be careless while being interviewed by
a prospective employer. You may say, “ What business is it of the
superintendents?” But it is our business if we can help a worker
to secure and to keep his employment. Many a boy, before being
sent to a job from our office, has been allowed to wash and spruce
up and has secured the job, whereas had he gone dirty, I feel sure
he would not have been hired, or at least we would have been re
luctant to send him. Neither should the superintendent who has a
staff under him hesitate to see that they follow out these ideas, be
cause it is useless for him to know that all these little side issues are
necessary unless he sees them carried out.
One very important part of a superintendent’s work is the select
ing o f applicants. The right worker for the job is the keynote of
our success. Every office must work for repeat orders and to get
these the applicants sent must be as near as possible made to measure
for the job. While the official doing the selecting must be firm, yet
he should, if necessary to turn down an applicant, let him see that
he is sorry to have to do so, to avoid discouraging the worker. A
few kind words, rightly spoken, at this time will often give a fresh
heart to any man or woman who might otherwise have gone away
broken in spirit—who knows, perhaps to the extent of committing
suicide. Only too often we read of workers doing this through
lack of employment.
I remember on one occasion hearing a member of my staff say in
a nasty manner to a very respectable worker who was applying for
a position we had open, “ Oh, you’re too old ; they want a young
man.” Had you seen the sad despairing look which came over that
poor man’s face, I am sure you would have felt sorry for him. A t
the same time I am sure the clerk spoke this way in a thoughtless
moment, but these are the little things we should guard against and
which we owe to the public whom we serve.
206
E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L M EETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
It may be that some of us will die “ in harness,” and if we do,
may we be spoken of in the same terms as those I heard used about
one o f our superintendents who died recently. A small knot of men
were assembled outside the office, and, as I expected, were discussing
the death of the superintendent. Not being known to them, I joined
the group, and almost the first words I heard were, “ Well, he was
a good old scout.” This superintendent’s attitude must surely have
been of the right kind, because later, when I attended his funeral, I
had further proof of this by the gathering of honorable citizens who
came to pay their respects to the dead.
O f course, a certain amount of discipline is necessary, too. Callers
who are not really anxious to secure employment must be firmly dis
couraged, as they are extremely detrimental to the rating of an
office in the employer’s eye and tend to keep the genuine worker
away. For some years we have worked patiently along these lines,
and it has been far from pleasant, but to-day I believe I can safely
say that the results are beginning to show—only genuine workers
making use o f the office and everybody conducting themselves in
an orderly manner. This is particularly important where workers
are allowed to wait on the premises.
The superintendent’s attitude about the exterior of his office is
also a great factor in making it a success. He should, I think, take
great pride in its outward appearance and should see that at all times
it is a credit to the government which it represents, and that it looks
as all government buildings should look, always clean and smart
and attractive from the outside. Nothing that I know of will at
tract employers of labor more than this. I f your office looks like a
real smart business place you may be sure the public will know that
they can get real service from it, and to you Ontario superintendents
let me tell you that I am sure you will get plenty of support from
the department along this line if you will only ask for it.
Your attitude toward the rather better educated worker is also
a very important item. These applicants will often present them
selves at your private office and expect to get a personal interview;
and while, of course, this takes more time, I firmly believe it to be
time well spent. Nothing will do more to raise the standard of
your office than placing before employers a list of some of your
applicants, and being able to show them the high-class worker whom
you have registered with you.
Let us now consider our attitude toward the employer o f labor.
In most of our offices a very large amount of our business is done
over the telephone, and a great deal depends not only on the words
spoken by you but by the very tone of your voice and the way in
which you close your conversation. Many a “ repeat ” order has
been gotten by the official at the office end o f the line by a courteous
conversation while taking the order. Even the way in which you
say “ Employment service ” when taking up the receiver to answer
a call may mean success or failure. No matter how you feel or how
things have gone all day, try to put a little pleasant note into that
answer, make the caller feel that you have just been sitting waiting
for his or her particular call, and that it is a great pleasure to receive
it. I f any of you are in doubt about just how I mean, listen in on
your radio some night when Andy answers a call from Madam
AOTlTtJDE OF L O C A L S trpE E IN 'T E N D lN ^
207
Queen and says “ Why, Hello.” Your call may be from some large
employer o f labor who has never used your office before, and often
some genuine interest shown, with the right amount o f respect, will
result in this employer using your office extensively.
I f possible we should always let the employer see that we are
conversant with his requirements, and by all means assure him that
his order is much appreciated and only the type of worker will be
sent who has all the requirements he has asked for. It often happens
that the employer lacks the very good manners which I am suggest
ing you show to him, but do not let this deter you from still remem
bering that you are a servant of the public and a gentleman.
Remember “ the soft answer turneth away wrath,” and unless I am
mistaken your attitude to him or her will often bring most unex{)ected results. By all means, in dealing with the employer, do not
et the domineering note creep in; be patient if the order is par
ticularly exacting, which is often the case; and if he or she has
any complaint to make concerning previous placements, go into the
complaint thoroughly and apologize and assure him or her that this
order will receive very careful treatment. A safe rule to adopt when
using the telephone is at all times to answer in a courteous manner.
Let the employer realize that you are interested in the welfare of
his business; that you and your office are at his disposal, and that no
trouble is too great for you. I f you can let him see that you are
conversant with his line of business, he will quickly realize that your
office can be of use to him and he will be more likely to place orders
with you. Our very actions while in his plant may have a bearing
favorably or otherwise on whether or not he will use our office, so
by all means convince him that your office is at all times at his
service.
Should an employer visit your office make him feel at home; do
not hesitate to inform him of the systematic way in which it is
operated; let him see it is run on strictly business lines and not hap
hazardly as some are likely to think. I f time permits, explain to him
your clearance system and let him see the splendid service that is
offered just for the asking; and again, if it is necessary for you to
answer the telephone or speak to an applicant while the employer
is in the room, let him see that the courteous manner which you are
extending to him is shown to all. Nothing will bring you greater
results than your actions while dealing with an employer.
Besides this treatment to all classes of employers, large or small,
a superintendent should endeavor to make a favorable impression on
all public bodies connected with his city. I believe that we should
make it our business to let such organizations as the chamber of
commerce, etc., realize that both we and our staff are at their disposal
at all times in order to keep the wheels of industry turning with the
least possible hindrance. A few well-chosen words spoken to some of
their officials can do a lot toward the success of your office. At all
times put yourself at their disposal to supply figures or information
which may assist in the smooth running of their organizations. Close
contact might also be kept with all social welfare offices; let them
understand that if we can be o f assistance in any way that they have
only to give us a call and we will endeavor to help them with their
problems. Our attitude toward these concerns may be a very decid
208
E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L MEETING-----1. A. P . E . S.
ing factor in the success or failure of our office, as the board of man
agers is often made up of citizens of a very high standard, whose
impression of us and our office may mean a very great deal in the
future.
My last remarks to you are going to be on our own personal attitude
to our job. We must give it the best we have in us—make it our
life work. I f you do not already realize it, let me impress on you
the importance of the work which we are given to do as superintend
ent of an employment office. The greatest asset that any country or
any city can have is contented citizens, and in a large measure into
your hands is given the power to make such, so we must put forth
every effort toward this end. You can have a citizen contented only
when he has employment, and while you can not, I know, create work
when it does not exist, make every effort to secure all that is to be
had for those who put their trust in you. Make the lot o f your
general superintendent and other officials to whom you are responsible
as easy as possible by making your office 100 per cent efficient, and
finally, make yourself and your whole staff a credit to the country in
whose employ you are.
Business Session
Chairman, H. C. Hudson, President International Association of Public Employment Services
President
H
u dson.
We wTill now hear the report of the secretary.
REPORT OF THE SECRETARY
One year ago, upon the election of Mr. Hudson as president, I fully expected
that my report to you at this time would be the easiest and most pleasant report
to make. At the Cleveland convention your secretary had splendid cooperation
from all sources but no association funds. In Philadelphia the secretary had
sufficient association funds but very poor cooperation. In Toronto the coopera
tion has been perfect, sufficient funds available, but the aftermath of the
Philadelphia convention has completely spoiled the entire picture.
As per your instructions one year ago, your secretary, through correspondence,
conducted a drive for increased membership, not entirely without success as
will be apparent from a comparative record of the past three years. At the
Cleveland convention there was a paid-up membership of 108 members and 81
delegates actually in attendance. In Philadelphia there was a paid-up mem
bership of 99 with 76 delegates in attendance. In Toronto, a paid-up member
ship of 131 with 66 delegates in attendance, 37 of whom were from Canada and
29 from the United States. You will note from these figures an increase in
membership of 21 per cent, compared with the Cleveland convention, and of
32 per cent over Philadelphia. The convention attendance, however, has de
creased each year. The decrease in attendance for this present year is not
due to decreasing interest, but rather to the straitened financial conditions
prevailing throughout the two nations.
Since the close of the Philadelphia convention your secretary has mailed out
to members and friends of the association somewhat over 2,800 communications,
650 of which were personally dictated letters, and the others general multigraph
communications. Just prior to the opening of this convention personal letters
were written to each of the governors of the various States and to all ministers
209
REPORT OF TREASURER
and deputy ministers in Canada. Personal replies were received from 26 gover
nors, and 10 other States replied through their departments of labor, making
a response from 36 of the 48 States. Replies were also received from four
Provinces and from the Federal Government of Canada. Without exception
these replies indicated a very decided interest in this convention and particularly
in the present problem of unemployment. I am not endeavoring to give you
any r£sum6 of the aftermath of the Philadelphia convention, which I have
previously referred to, because this subject has been thoroughly covered at a
special meeting of this convention. It is still the opinion of your secretary that
the association is making progress, and it is quite important that the several
serious handicaps under whch your executive officials have labored during the
past few years should not be allowed to interfere with the progress of this
association. The spirit of unity, cooperation, and sincere good-fellowship which
has prevailed throughout this Toronto conference is certainly an indication
that international boundaries, particularly between these, two nations, can not
preclude the pooling of our common interests in the promotion of this most
important work in which we are all engaged.
Adversities should only bind us closer together, and in conclusion your sec
retary voices the hope and belief that we will all look forward with pleasant
anticipation to our meeting next year in whatever city may be selected.
Respectfully submitted.
B. C. S e i p l e ,
Secretary.
[On motion duly made, seconded, and carried the report was
accepted.]
President
H
u dson.
We will now have the report of the treasurer.
REPORT OF TREASURER
As treasurer of the association, I wish to make the following report for
the period following the conclusion of the Philadelphia convention, 1929.
Balance in treasury at last audit-------------------------------------------------- $220.40
Receipts since last audit__________________________________________ 302.00
Total assets_______________________________________________
Disbursements :
Expenses of secretary at Philadelphia convention (statement
exhibit)____________________________________________________
Printing (invoice exhibit)_____________________________________
Expenses of secretary to program meeting, Niagara Falls (state
ment exhibit)---------------------------------------------------------------------Convention badges (invoice exhibit)__________________________
Postage (cash)----------------------------------------------------------------------Telegrams and telephones (cash)_____________________________
522.40
126.32
89.00
38.02
34.50
35.00
7.00
329.84
Balance in treasury_______________________________________________
192.56
Respectfully submitted.
B. C.
S e ip l e .
Treasurer.
[On motion duly made, seconded, and carried this report was
accepted.]
210
EIGHTEENTH ANNUAL MEETING— I. A. P. E. S.
REPORT OF COMMITTEE ON RESOLUTIONS
4. Resolved, That this association request the Post Office Departments of the
United States and Canada to place a die in stamp-canceling machines with the
following inscription: “ Provide work for the jobless.”
5. Resolved, That a copy of all resolutions adopted by this convention be
sent to the governors of all States in the United States, to all ministers of
labor of the Provinces of Canada, and to the Departments of Labor of the
United States and Canada.
6. Whereas various solutions are being proposed for unemployment, such as
shorter hours, unemployment insurance, and certain forms of stabilization of
employment; and
Whereas the members of this organization are not agreed as to the merits
of such alleged solutions: Therefore, be it
Resolved, That a committee of five be appointed by the president to investi
gate the general problem of unemployment and to report annually thereon to
this association.
7. Whereas unemployment, problems are to-day attracting the attention of
some of the best minds of every civilized country in the world; and
Whereas better public employment exchanges are one means of decreasing
unemployment, and therefore the programs of an association such as ours
should attract all those interested in unemployment problems: Therefore be it
Resolved, That the membership of the association be made to realize the need
for a wider exchange of ideas and information which come from their attendance
at our annual meetings; and be it further
Resolved, That a program committee be appointed to advise with the executive
committee with respect to seeing that the speakers who accept the responsi
bilities of addressing the convention realize their obligation to attend and that
the committee endeavor to build up a program which will attract to our yearly
meetings a group commensurate in size with the importance of the work of
the association.
[The report of the resolutions committee was accepted.]
[The auditing committee reported that it had audited and ap
proved as correct the books of the secretary-treasurer. The report
was accepted.]
[The committee on time and place of meeting recommended that
the 1931 convention be held in Cincinnati in the month of September.
The report was accepted.]
[The report of the committee on nomination of officers was received
and accepted. The officers and members of the executive committee
were then elected. Their names appear on page 141.]
[A rising vote of thanks was given the retiring committees for
their good work. A motion was made, seconded, and carried that
the committee on uniform forms, records, and procedure be dis
charged and a new committee be appointed to go into the matter.]
[Mr. Seiple reported that he had received a report from Mr. Bryce
M. Stewart on an investigation of employment-office procedure, being
an interim report by the committee on governmental labor statistics
of the American Statistical Association, which in a resolution passed
at the last annual meeting of the International Association o f Public
Employment Services had been asked to consider the question of
uniform methods and statistical procedure for public employment
IN T E R IM REPORT— EM P LO YM E N T-O FFIC E PROCEDURE
211
offices. A motion was made, seconded, and carried that the report
be acknowledged and incorporated in the proceedings o f this
convention.]
INTERIM REPORT OF COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL LABOR STATISTICS
OF THE AMERICAN STATISTICAL ASSOCIATION ON AN INVESTIGATION
OF EMPLOYMENT-OFFICE PROCEDURE
The International Association of Public Employment Services, at its annual
meeting of 1929, passed a resolution requesting the committee on govern
mental labor statistics of the American Statistical Association to investigate
the subject of standard statistical procedure for public employment offices.
The committee was pleased to act on this request, for it had been considering
for some time the possibility of undertaking such an investigation. In the
second place, it happened that the executive secretary of the committee was
leaving soon to spend some months in Europe and in the committee’s view it
was desirable that the procedure of the employment exchange systems in
Europe should be studied because of their long experience in this field. Ac
cordingly, the executive secretary was commissioned to proceed on these lines
during his stay in Europe and the services of a full-time assistant were
secured to help in the work.
Investigation was begun in Switzerland, in view of the fact that the gen
eral secretary was stationed there and because the smallness of the country
and the comparatively few employment offices made it possible to survey their
work and to arrive at the problems involved in a comparatively short time.
The Swiss experience proved decidedly significant for America in that the
history of the public employment service has been much the same as in the
United States, having developed under local and cantonal auspices with a
continuing growth of cooperation. The constitutional powers of the Federal
Government did not enable it to weld the local offices into a national em
ployment service until after the war. It will be remembered that the first
conference of the International Labor Organization, held in Washington in
1919, adopted a convention on the establishment of national employment sys
tems in the countries members of the League of Nations. By the Swiss con
stitution the treaty-making powers are vested in the Federal Government and
under this authority the Government implemented the Washington employment
offices convention and passed the necessary legislation.
The national employment service then set up a uniform administrative and
statistical procedure. The investigators spent some time in the national
offices at Berne and secured their detailed definitions of terms and a full ac
count of their procedure. The Swiss section of the committee’s report has
been completed.
The investigators next proceeded to Berlin and spent about three weeks
visiting the employment exchanges and interviewing the local and national
offices. Partly because of the larger and more diverse character of the coun
try, uniform procedure has developed more slowly than in Switzerland, and
there was also a marked degree of voluntary cooperation among the various
State office systems. A few years after the war a national employment
exchange act was passed, but it was not until 1927, when the national system
of unemployment insurance was adopted, that real effort to arrive at standard
employment office procedure was begun. As the situation is to-day, there is
no available manual of procedure. Certain definitions and methods have been
agreed upon, but to a considerable degree the work is still in a trial and error
stage.
212
E IG H T E E N T H A N N U A L M EETING-----1. A. P . E. S.
The German situation more closely resembles that of the United States than
that of Switzerland. A detailed report has been completed giving a brief
history of the German exchanges, their methods and statistical procedure in
so far as these have been standardized, and the statistics published. The
information has been gathered entirely from German officials and from German
written sources and should throw considerable light on the problem confronted
in America.
At present a brief section is being completed on the work of the municipal
exchanges in Paris. Labor exchanges of France as a whole are not highly
developed, but some of the exchanges in Paris have had a long history and
have a highly developed technique.
It is proposed to visit one of the Scandinavian countries next, probably Den
mark, then to make an exhaustive survey of the methods of the exchanges of
Great Britain. Finally there will be some study of the employment exchanges
of Italy, which also has established a national system.
It is impossible, of course, at this stage to draw conclusions. The plan of
study is to complete the national sections as above indicated, which will
probably form part 2 of the published work, and to bring out the common
elements and the striking differences of procedure in part 1. It is hoped that
a section may be included in part 2 on the procedure developed in Canada,
since the Canadian offices have been following a standard practice for more
than a decade.
The committee expects to have all the data and the completed national
sections in hand early in 1931. It will then endeavor to arrive at some con
clusions and recommendations and expects to be able to submit the finished
work to the International Association of Public Employment Services before
its annual meeting in 1931.
[The association voted to send two of its members to the convention
of merchants in Boston and of the civil service in Chicago.]
[The delegates from the United States gave a rising vote of thanks
to the Ontario Department of Labor for the many courtesies shown
them while they were guests of the department.]
[Meeting adjourned.]
@FedFRASER