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,Yt4A_ cEser,44-
:.'111117
. "AFT- 77TIT OF LAEOR
STATF .7.7
Conference of women present from State Depart:I-lents as follows:
Miss Brisette, Kans.
Dr. Bricker, Pa.
Miss Barbour, Children's Bureau
Mrs. Edson, Cal.
Mrs. _Iusgrove, Ky.
Mrs. Semple, Pa.
Miss Allinson, Coin. Miss Wissner, InvestIgation
& Inspection Service
Woirien in Industry
Mrs. Hadley, Administrative Eiissiglopeztaem of Labor Standards
of the Quarter:caster's Departnent
Miss Peterson, Minn.
Mrs. A.L. Bailey, Vt.
Miss Pauline Goldmark,
U.S. R.R. Administration.
Miss True, War Labor
Policies Board.
Miss Russnowska, Investigation & Inspection Service
It ,as suggested that the Woman in Industry Service issue a standar: form
for investigation which all of the State Departments of Labor could use as an
Jutline for studying nevi,' occurations for women.
In concrete discussion the inquiry noA being made by California at the request of the Woman in Industry Service in the use of Ao,tion in the projecting
rooms of moving picture shows, ,as discussed. It was pointed out that there ware
serious fire hazarls and inadequate ventilation, but in Pennsylvania, for example,
the laNs set such high standards for moving picture shows, tnat the saL.e oojections for tne employment of woLLen would not obtain there as in soala other states.
for
In Los Angeles there is trouble dith the Unions at present, which may account
tion
applica
local
for
ty
necessi
the
ates
the ;Ash to introduce wo,len.This illustr
in one state
of any general standards but it is believed that investigations made
will be useful in another.
er service
There sas also discussion of street railway employ—ant and messeng
of
isolation.
hazard
the
lly
and the moral hazard in some nes occupations, especia
of
hous.32
ture
tempera
the
In this connection Miss Golimark called attention to
the poAder plants.
the country
As an illustration of this difference in the different parts of
gation
investi
Mrs. Edson pointed out that the schedules used in the cost of living
those
in
nia
of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, would be unintelligible in Califor
California iee.sure is
items calling for a state'aent of pecks or bushels, as the
pound of the hundredweight.
Tne pressing machine Nhich is increasingly used by wo.,ien in the plants
investigation.
working for the Quartermaster's Department, is cited as needing
Cited by Mrs. Hadley.
The Woman in Industry Service is asked to take the following steps:
1. Send out standard form for investigation
2. Send information as to inquiries alreqdy under my
4ork already done, to inquire into all,
P' 3. Ask the states to file information as to
to establish standards in nev occupations for wauen.
4. Ask the states for criticism of the form of investigation.
5. Ask the states to decide on the extent to which they could take part in a nation
vvide study of occupations for women by selecting occupations in their oAn states
needing investigation. Filing a state ,ent of their plans with the Woman in
Industry Service.
-2STATE DE-)ARTMENT6 OF LABOR
Mrs. Edson woild like a letter authorizing her to state in connection with
the investigation of mJving picture shoss, that a prerequisite to the emplovent
of women will be the determination to give the same pay to women as to men, whose
places they take. It was decided that this should be regarded as fundental in
any such investigation.
ABSTRACT
of the
PROCEEDINGS
of tbe
COMAE= OF OWE DANA,OFFICIALS
HELD IN TASHIN3TON MEI! THE AUSICTS 07 THE
13.2in
September 30 and October 1, 1918.
A -
Opening addressee.
1 - Address of Secretary Wilson
When we entered the war, we deemed it absolutely necessary
that we should make every possible provision for the purpose of maintaining the health of our boys whom we were taking into the camps. We
are doing the same with the boys that go over the seae. The saving of
man-power is the a1l-ii4ortant purpose at this time.
New, what is true with regard to the preservation of our boys
in the camps and in the tr9nches against disease and against any other
form of destruction or injury, is true with regard to the industrial
workers. The more we can conserve the lives and the health of our workers, the more men we have available for the trenches. The more the
lives of our people are destroyed in industry, the fewer we have for
military operations.
And so yore- are dealing with a very important problem in
connection with the proper conduct of the war -- the question of
securing the largest possible production from the available manpower and woman'-power of the count ry, and securing it with the least
possible sacrifice of life, limb, end health
There has been an agitation for the elimination or lowering
of standards in orddr that we might, bty the lowering of those standards, increase productivity.
I recall something more than a year ago, when the anthracite coal miners and coal Operators were in conference for the purpose og making a new wags scale, that a suggestion was made to the
Council of National Defense that we aught to impress upon the conference the need in the crisis through which we were passing of yielding the eight-hour working day which had been established in the anacite fields, and returning to the nine-hour day which had previolisobtained there, the assuzption being that if the anthracite coal
miners went back to a nine -hour working day that more coal would be
produced.
Wly
At that time I suggested to the Council the advisability
Of making an intensive investigation of the subject before we made
any recommendations. Our Bureau of Labor Statistics made an investigation with an interesting result. We found that the anthracite coal miners working eight hours per day in 1916-17 were producing approximately 2% more coal than they had produced in nine
hours in 1915-16.
- 2-
It doos not fellow that because in a mining industry =en
have been producing more coal with an eight-hour working day than
they did in a nine-hollr working day that the same would be true in
all other lines of industry. I simply cite this to show soae 6f the
problems that we are confronted with in connection with the questich
of standards.
It is absolutely imperative that we shall do all in our
power to maintain the standard with regard to at least the LUIZ—
inelkM age at which Children may be admitted into gainful occupations,
for the welfare of the child itself9 the welfare of the commanitY,
for the future of out country.
We have a special problem in connection with women i4
industry. There are ilany lines of industrA that women are not
physically fitted to fill. Trhere afe mary conditions of industry that affect net onl:e the physical development of women,
but their own self-respeet. I can conceive of no greater injury
that can come to our country tbaA the introduction of our women
into lines of inductvy ttat they are not physically fitted to perform, or into lines of industry that reduce their own self-respect.
The rapidity with which other counttles, when compelled
to deal with the proolem, introduced women into industries where
they should not have beet introduced, is w1.11 known. We have ,bad
moze time to deal wlth the mao0eat; and sL.iipl there is a tenaencY
on our part to introduce women where they should not be introduced.
Some (bight or nine years ago I had the honor of representing the American Federation of Labor As its fraternal delegate to
During my visit over there I
theBritish Trade Union Congress.
was shocked to find the kinds of industry that women were then
enggged in in Great Britain. I found women there at that time
working on the pit-heads, dumping the coal out of the mine cars
into the railroad cars. I saw women there with their Wheelbarrows
taking bricks away from the moulds, wheeling them into the kilns
and piling them up to be burned; and / saw those same women going
into the ex8reme1y hot kilns after the brick had bean burned and
when the time had come to remove them, taking the brick from the
kiln, wheeling it out into the yards and piling it there. .....
there may come a time when it will be
As T have said
necessary to reduce the standards that we hare established ia
order that we may preserve the conditioas under Whi.,:h those standards have been built iqo and under which we may go on to work out
our own destiny in our own way. But that sacrifice of standard
should not be made upon the responsibility of those who: are only
- 3in a position to see the local situatian. When standards are lowered,
it should be upon the responsibility of those who are in a position
to observe the entire field, and then only after every other means of
supplying our armies has been exhausted,
2 - Address of Mr. Frankturterj C
irmax of War Labor Polickal_Bolrd.
This is an extraordinarily vast country. No one who has
not had the opportunity of comparing the difficulties of administration in England, in time of war) where officials sitting in London can get anybody from anywhere in the kingdas certainly within
a day's ride, even under congested traffic conditions, can quite get
into his own intellectual perception the feeling, the realization,
the r_cotion of What it xeans to have adiAnistrative responsibility
in the United States in time of war. Therefore the method which has
made the administration of the selective service law so effective,
the method which is making the administration of Mt. Hoover's work
so effective, is peculiarly the method which we must pursue in the
field of labor;- namely, that we must have the vitalizing energy
and intelligence of you lien and women in the various states throughout the country.
think if we were to summarize in a word the defect of
American lbor administration, we would be tempted to say - I
think with accuracy, - that its failure was in its lack of enforceinent. The laws themselves were zeager, but their sesential r1ern,e7;41
that there was no provision made in the laws for eft6otive administration.
There cannot be, even with the vast machinery of the administration, direction here from WashinOon. It must be from the
tields throughout the.
field; and you are stationed in the varioUW
,
country. We must ask yoa gentlemen, you men and; women, and the
various organizations throughout the country, to iW'the enforcing
agencies for the federal departments; therefore it is that we feel
we have the right to bring you from your field duties,W0,to eoU
with us, to tell us of your difficultiesi.ond to 1.(4 Ydd iee; if we
can, the general plan of which you are the ex9Outing organs.
as
-4-
B - PROGRAM OF TiE WAR LABOR POLICIES BOARD
The prqgraq of_ith_bE412E_ElitskttrA aCcording to which the government contracts require compliance with state laws and the state department
are deputized to aid in enforcement was presented.,
/Nor Rosensohn, -
Assigned to the office of the Judge Advocate General.
The policy adopted by the various department heads was that
all the labor standards which had been established by law or custom
should be maintained as far as practicable; they should not be suspenaed except in the cases of extraordinary emergency. By 'extraordinary emergency" we do not mean siiply the emergency of the war. The
war, in and of itself, is not an extraordinary emergenqy.
There have
got to be other factors before any suspension can be allowed.
The War Labor Policies Board thought it edvisable that every
contract should contain a provision that the contractor in the per.formance of the contract would comply with all of the State labor laws4
Accordingly, a clause with which we are especially concerned, was
adopted to be inserted in every contract. That clause is:
"All work required id carryin out this contract shall be perforged in full comolaince with the laws of the State, Territory, or
District of Columbia whore such labor is performed; provided, that
the contractor shall riot oploy in the performance of this contract
any minor u.nolr the ?ge of 14 years, or permit any minor between the
ages of 14 and 16 years to work more than 8 hours in any one day,
more than 6 days in any one week, or before 6 A, M. , or after 7 P.
M.
nor shall the contractor, directly or indirectlr, ;mploy any person
under sentence of imprisonment at hard labor which may have been
imposed by a court of any State, Territory, or municipality having
criminal jurisdiction; provided, howeter, that the President of the
United States may, by executive order, modify this provision with
respect to the employment of convict labor and provide the terms and
conditions upon which such labor may be employed." These provisions
Shall be of the essence of the contract.8
The Tar Department has issued an order directing that every
contract should contain such a clause; the Navy Department will order
it to-day; the Housing Corporation has included them
in every contract,
and the Emergency Fleet Corporation will also issue
such an order.
•
;
- 6:n enftvcing this p:ovisiun it was also decided that the
e labor departments were the bestagencies to enforce
Stat
various
nt.
the State labor 'Laws or. behalf of the governne
Miss
Mary Van Rleees,
Di-:eotor of the Tolv-m in Industry Service.
, and your action
You are the outposts of this whole sitvat!.on
tized to enforce those prois to be an eftective actlorA. You are depu
is the effectiveness of
point
visions of the contract, and the whole
to see the plants workty
bili
onsi
enforcement. Clearly it is your resp
ing on contracts in each State are living up to the announced policy and
you are acting in the capacity
dssire of the Federal departments, and
.
not only of a state but of a federal age
raised.
2- The guestion of the rigbt to.demitize was
I wanted to ask if Miss Abbott would
Dice„.__Mezraszay0_107,uirt.
fatetol7y inspectors as federal
consider it a good plan to n-kme State
individua14, but we have factory
agents. The letter designated me
inspectors.
nt. War Labor Policies board.
Miss Abbott, Researoh Consulta
that designation.
You can deputize them through
d and
aus of which you are the heads are deputize
.tiejgr Bosensohn. Bure
apy repres?ntetive.
of course you can act through
.
by some states for lists of govnnment sanr
3 4 The desire was 'Tressed
uonsidered practicable.
tractors. but tuis was not
s to me that it would be a very
111.4......uwerainnesota. It seem
r Policies Board would furnish the state
good idea if the War Labo
lete list of the manufacturers within that
departments with a comp
racts.
state who have these cont
them
easy to 3et lists of contractors and get
Mils Abbott. It is rot
in
ged
enga
are
le
inasmach as the state peop
out to you in time, and
upon
you,
for
le plant, it is very easy
They
the inspection of eve'y sing
are engaged in war work or not..
they
work.
inquiry, to learn whether
war
in
that they are not engaged
say
to
d
hear
be
to
g
difare not goin
e, because it makes a very great material.
There will be no difficulty ther
raw
in labor and in fuel and in
ference in getting the priority
- 6Do rot be alarmed that any contractor, even
140...Dunl.n. cf_NM,s.squr1.
wil tell you he is not wing for
though he mkee just one tLn
74. am workirg for the government''.
the zeger&rent. He will tell
4 - Tho best ntthoci of deali-.1g siCa p3rsistent violation, Whether -;)y local
proseoution or y report,ing to the fecleral contracting department was
tat lcal pr)seettion was better in
de')ated,. /c was gee:-ally
:Qa for the head of
the majoritzr of cal.es, Vut, Oat i', would bo poesi.
auttloriv wnen
feJaral
to
the stlabs labor depnel,m-ht to bave recourse
in his j-aogmeLt Waile wae preferable.
5 - The :ciulicebilitz_of_state lnws in industries operating under degrees of
goverment control was dicusserl.
They nre not applicable in woverrmert own -d plants,
Majo- Rosensohn. You have to the Western Union Telegraph Company taken
over by the goverment. The radii-oaf:Ls have been taken over by the goverment. Snce Close things have happenel, of course the state laws are
no loLger applical)le, but the gov,rnmeatal policies are applicabLe, and
of course it is for the heads of those departments to determine that.
T he gov?,rnment policy makes them applicable on direct contracts. They are applicable on subcontracts and on plants whose products
are commandeered.
6 - Compliance with certain safety standards, it was reported, is virtually
suspended owing to the impossibility of getting materials for the alteratians reluired.
Mr._ryant_pf New Jersey. 4 have some very serious problems to consie.er in New jersey as to getting material to carry cut the orders of
the department. We order a fire escape on a hai7.ding. A contract
is given, and the contractor cannot get the material, 7s there any
way that that situation can be hekpee, thzorgh the Priorities roard?
I 1.ave two cases where the Conditi.o:is ate hazardous. Just before I
fire
left I gave instructions to have both buildire:s closed lert:.1 he
be
wort
They
is
.
to
goirgg
hap
pcJII.
at
escaoes are erected. Iknow Aih.
anthem.
tbat..f.xo
The
factozies
bui).d
to
material
able to get the
iwwar work can get priority for iron.
Mi. Frayne of the War Industries Board,
:f they ate engaged in war industrics they stand some chance.
Suppose you write the priority commission on it5
Mk. Kearns of Ohio. Tei are having serious trollble along that very
Line in Ohib, now, where we issue orders for safety devices for school—
houses of all kinds and it means that they must have sheet metal or
iron or steel to comply with the ordeF4 and in any number of cases they
say- to the department that they cannot get the material unless they have
'a Priority order, and they cannot get a priority order unless they are
manufacturing goods for the government.
Mr. Frayne. Forward the information to Washington and it might be
helpful in getting this material. I do not say thpt it will, but an
ap9licati3n endorsed by a state comission will be recognized much
more readily than the owner or the contractor. So in each instance if
the comoission were to write a 13tter of endorsement calling attention
to the necessity of getting a priority order, it would be very helpful,
- 7-
C
Child. Labor.
the changes
1 - Miss Lathrop, Chief of the Children's Bureau, spoke of
Supreme Cov.r.
in the federal program caused by the decision of the
Cane to help
Miss Lathrop. A little more than a year ago some of you
law, and you inus launch the enfercoment of the federal child labor
h the 273
spirea us and helped vs a great deal then end all throug
nly could
certai
There
ion.
operat
in
days during which that law was
it dehave
to
moment
icious
inausp
herdly heve been found a more,
getting
were
we
as
just
dune,
of
3d
clared unconstitutional then the
Uowever,thrmgh the
into the very think of this industrial activity.
were able to wrest
we
Board,
es
Secretary, through the Tar Labor Polici
Policies
Labor
war
the
e
a little victory from that defeat, becaus
es of the
agenci
tion
produc
Board with its representation of the great
ards
stanCL
the
cts
contra
government is able to put into the government
cent
bereft
the
of
out
of the federal ch4.14t labor law. The Presidentt
with which to
fund which comes forth on occasion, gave us $:k001000
ct clauses unmake investigations so that we can enforce these contra
another law
til the heppy mcment when Congress may be able to secure
Supreme Court.
which, presumably, will be more gemt2,7 regarded by the
we have every
Various measures have been presented to Congress, end
passed during this
reason to believe that a permanent measure will be
presant Congress.
have undertaken
There have been several measures which we
Board which are
es
Labor
Polici
in following the policies of the War
they are
rate,
at
any
past,
somewhat different from those of the
helpless
almost
been
based upon a different power. We would have
not exist
Bureau
the
did
ional
when the law was declared unconstittut
on
report
and
to
u
igate
Burea
invest
under a law which directs the
abhad
.e
ci
theref
of
We
e
en,
welfar
eaildr
all matters affecting the
in
Lring
to
and
ies
go
into
factor
to
s
solute power as investigator
no standreports, although, of course, we have AO law to enforce ancl
as we
auril
au
ards on which we could insist. But we did at once f.ave resources
d
with
very
the
limite
on
Divisi
could of the Child Labor
which we had at the time.
- 8
Some of you may bs interested to know that agents heYe
since been working very herd on gatherer.; the matoris1 into proper
shape for a report which is nearing publication.
Miss Lathrop announced that Miss Abbott, Director of the Child Labor
Division of the Bureau, is assigned to the War Labor Policies Board
temporarily, end that her work in the Bureau is being tarried by
Nies Mathews, Assistant Director.
e a tm t in en preing_tte.
• stet
e re
rice f
2 - The e.the value of joint
federal _chil4 labo* law_ was discussed, especially
ctions made by
l
inspections and of the reports concerning federe inspz:
the Bureau to the states.
the theory that any plan
Mls_s Abbott. As you icow, we went on
al standards was to be by
feder
of
on
of enforcement or administrati
state and the fedaral
the
n
betwee
some sort of joint arrangement
was taken by the
that
vote
government; and according to the
of the Secretary of
call
the
at
delegate who assembled last July
by the Secretary
sioned
commis
Labor, all of you were designated or
federal act.
the
of
ement
for the purpose of aiding in the enforc
we have been very
concerned,
as Pennsylvania istion
2.E.. Aft far
plan. There has been some
inspec
mutual
the
muchria-iesfied with
difffederal law and our own, and we had some
144-
•
difference between the
difference, but I think you
iculty at the start in adjusting that
right when the Supreme Court
will agree teat we were just about going
put the braes on.
was lower than the federal standmiluolaa. The Pennsylvania law
day for children between 14 and
-hour
ard in that it permitted a nine
contract provisions which we are going
16. It is also lower than
child labor law did 'make
to be called epon to enforce. The federal
ia
situation, and the contract
ylvan
Penns
the
a very definite change in
lvania situation. we
the
Pennsy
in
provision makes a definite change
some of Mr. Palmer's
with
tions
inspec
joint
went in there and made some
er for a time, and then the
inspectors and began the work togeth
tore_ to finish ixo the work, and
j.nspec
our
left
Pejensylvania inspectorS touch with them.
Then we turneu aver to tnem
WW kept in pretty close
most of them turned
a emetry of the findings. Those findings were
and a number of suits
onal,,
tituti
uncons
ed
in after the law was declar
had been filed.
A
V,•
-9In another instance, in Ohio, for example, we followed
the policy of writing the employer a letter setting forth the
findings, Most of the violations were of the Ohio law instead of the
Federal, because the Ohio standards were vary much higher. We sent
at the same time a copy of thess findings to the state inspector
Calling attention to the fact that this duplicate was being sent to the
employer, and that he was being notified at the seem time
Mr, Kerns or Ohio. The plan of feferring violations from the
Federal Bureau to the labor commissioner seems to be very satiFfactory. At any rate,it is working out that way in Ohio. What
we are doing now is to take those reports and turn them over to our
deputies in the various districts, to make their investigations,
Of course, if we find the laws are still being violated prosecutions will be brought. We started prosecution in one case just
before I left home on or of the reports sent out by Your department, where we found the law still being violated. I think,
however, that wherever, it is possible to do it,it will be much
more satisfactory if the 'federal and state inspectors can make
the inspections together where flagrant violations of the law are
found and prosecutions ere necessary. Of course, we can not make
those prosecutions until we get the (gidence ourselves.
Allen_pf Tennessee. The suggestions made with regard to mutually
reporting inspections meet with my full endorsement. I had some experience in receiving and acting on reports from the federal department
imnediately following the time When the federal child labor law was in
force, and I found great oenefit resulting to us in Tennessee from that
system. We took each individual rep)rt that came to us, whether it was
We took the bad cases and.
good or bad, and got some results from it
had our inspectors go to the industries where the federal inspector had
found the law violated, or possibla violated, and he traced these matters
down until we corrected them in one or two cases by prosecution and in
a majority of the cases without it, and following our policy, in those
CPS'3S where the report showed conditions were good, no violations and
no reason for complaint, we immediately told the industry of the facts
and made aftiend of the managers of those iniustries. I think the
proper idea is that we should have some system adopted that would be
uniform throughout the country, some blank maybe that could be used in
all cases where the federal inspector would report conditions to the tate
department, and, if desired, the state inspectors could report oonditionS
to the federal department, and than have a follow-up system by Which
we could trace those until we got complete and satisfactory results from •
them.
of North Carolina. In reference to the cases of eiolations
supervision, I found that there were
found in which our
no names. I was wondering if Miss Abbott could furnish us with the
names of the children Who are below age. If that could be done, we
will get right after those cases and have them rounded up.
ML.21.1s2an
s-t7777;;:hsls
-10 nstructions at the time that tAlqalw
Miss Abbott. We sent out gen
no request for names from you., but
have
We
.
was found unconstitutional
it.
we will be very glad to have
method
Mk. Fox of vervland. I want to suggest thet if we had a uniform
state
to
rs
the
inspecto
federal
the
by.
of reportine, all violations found
returns
make
to
which
on
form
printed
departments, and then if we haa a
think we would get somewhere.
ox report on these s
HelApor,i_of lihode .Islaryl. We have reports from your department. We
like to have it nearer
appreciate the information received, but we would
two or three
to the time of the investigetion. We did not get it until
fact that as
the
months after the inspections were made. I objected to
not like to have a
I thought this report was going to be printed, I did
we
seeret investigation and then have it repo:ted to the public before
got it.
Miss Lathrop.
Quite right.
Mr, Hudson. It is a long way to send reports on here to Washington to
r
have them compiled, and then send them back to us. If the inspecto
with
e
cooperat
could
we
could give his information on the spot, I think
him.
Miser Lathrop,
We certainly can speed up.
Miss Abbott. The only way we can assume responsibility for what
d
is being done is to see whether the evidence that we have collecte
heve
we
So
insisted
you.
to
over
it
is adeuate before we turn
that the reports should come into Washington first, before they
were passed on to you. While that is slightly slower, in the
long run it will be more satisfactory to you, because you will
then know that you are dealing with the final responsibility in
with
connection with the thing aild that you nill not be dealing
have,
will
We
fact.
a
as
ed
recogniz
not
something that we heve
-Ole
Qf covrse, t9 peb/jAh the.final. rots of the work of
Laviseon, baca.L1 ot the 3nepectors have peen instructec. that no
local publicity was to be given to the findings.
yr. Gardiner,of Miypee9t4p I think it would be a good idea if
the Federal Child La-eor Bureau would get samples of every one
of these blanks that are used in the varuous states wirre we
an. formulate one of the easiest working
have child lebor
blanks we can possi...y grIt hold. of. Then When we are making
reports, they should be sent to bblahr states to show the investigations that have been made and the results accomplished
in adjoining states.
1
- 113 - A plan was discussed for reports on violations to be made by the states
to the Children's Bureau, as a means of enforcing the contract provision in regard to Child labor.
Miss Abbott. The Government does not believe that contract provisions
will be self-operating. You are being commissioned by the War Department and by the Navy Department and by the other departments of the
Government to report to them violations of the contracts, and then
those violations will be taken up with the contractors: so that you are,
so to speak, the enforcing officer. We shall be very glad to have
those reports cove into us because it is a policy to handle them unifriftly with the War Department and the Navy De!artment and the Shipping Board.
I am sure that you will be glad to know that the movement
fat the insertion of the contract clause did not come from the child
labor division but from the War Department to the War Labor Policies
Bogia with the airroval of the production departments who were concerned with getting out production because they did not want this
iapression to go abroad that we wanted little children in the factories
working to win the war.
Miss Lathrop. Is it not the sense of the meeting that, if the system
of reporting blanks should be agreed upon and the blanks sent out at
once by the Government, it would b - agreeable to the state inspectors
to send in taeir reports to the Division of such infractions as occur?
If that is regardedas a sensible and satisfactory plan, the Child
Labor Division will at once proceed to prepare such blanks for reports.
Miss Abbott. We cit not find that it is a matter that can always
be put on a short blank. We have got to have for the Department
proof of the fact that the child is under 14 and a proof that he
is working over hours. You all know that those responsible in the
War Department are not going to be too patient in handling reports
that are not verifted and which do not consider the evidence on which
the report is based; and in order to get uniform and quick and
responsible action from those very busy departments we have got
to have evidence go in absolutely aid-tight as to the facts that
are submitted. I NM very sure that all of you will be very gild
to do that and realize that it is necessary.
We do not want them to go back and veriI these facts..
We want them to be able to deal with a contract absolutely on the
basis of the information that is there, just as the Attorney General
in the Department of Justice startsaction on the information that
they have there. So we will have to ask for something more than
a very short blank in that connection.
- 12 4 - Various inst,anc_es„.2f
of child labor laws. aut_ to w-ar time
condition; were brought up in ci:c:1:0ent states,
Miss . L,e,sette 9.1-7,;as.. mu tii.ed to prosecute the restern Union
last week, an2 the cnty attorrey refused -:() prosecute our case,
saying it was .174er governmert
r.oL 'Plt means that the bars
are down in t:.1-13 :tate for chil4 „I.loor in the messenger service,
and theyare r:alling them thILiir e,L1 fast ant were helpless and
can do nothing. TI:e Distrit Attorwy refassd to take any action.
He saici we wuu.16. have to ta
be irt
e&irely up with the Federal authorities. I wir.ed the Pestmaster-General promptly and wrote
him repeatedly, but we have not had any reply.
Miss...L
.214E1a,
I think it could bs reported to the War Labor Policies Board
Miss Abbott. We want reports of that sort to come in.
in that way that the states can be of assistance/
It is exactly
Mr, Fox of maryjapd,. me are having practically the same experience
right now. n'as have found over two hundred violations, and the
magistrate aunched them all and fined. ',them $-,.0 and costs, Which
they were w4.1U1-.g to pa' eveiry dv for working the Children.
Mr. Muirua v 2f M4sactiunt2. 2 came to Washington to shake hands
with someone 144.u--,;,4it of the billiant idea of getting after the
contract. Send aiung your reports wad we will do the best we can
with them. We had one delivered to us. We had already started
prosecution on one man in the cousity, and we prosecuted quite a
lot afterwards: and we got themes fap as the court, and the court
said -- T wonder if that is a uniform experience -- "These are war
times. I .e not believe it hurts these children.
He asked one
of the boys if he felt inju7ed by what he did, and then he said,
W We will find them guilty but file the cases with no determination.
Mr Mulready also stated that permits to suspend the
Massachuaetts obild labor law had never been granted, though fiftyone applicatot,
. liad been made: "'We stach to the policy that-we
would. no'c, ur.er arly circuaxtances, grant the right for Children to
work over tite."
ir.or
4,4
Mr. Allop of_Tny4Aft,(7.,
want to put before you the case of What
is said to be a :SU,000,000 corporation, a government war industry,
being erectec, by a prvate corporation. This corporation has let a
contract for tae erect/0'1 of the industrial city to another corporation. W:t.tA respect tu the corporation ihat is building the plant
the state lave and federal lava,
I am confident, are tiling observed,
1
-13-
but in the case of the corporation that is building the industrial
city the laws are being disregarded. There are from one hundred to
two hundred and fifty Children employed there now, illegally, 1 am
stating facts. Women are employed illegal hours and in other instances
the &aws of the State of Tennessee are being disregarded.
Miss Abbott. There is a mistaken view throughout the country that
the department here in Washington were relaxing on that scare. What
we are able to do for you is to say quite definitely that the
Secretary of War and the Secretary of the Navy have indicated that
their policy is against that sort of thing.
6-
The importance of reports on the issuing of wprkingcertificatts
by the states to the federal government was exp4ained by Miss Matthews
of the Children's Bureau. The desirability of uniform reports and
some of the difficultiesAere considered. It was decided to appoint
a committee to suggest methods of reporting, and Miss Lathrop appointu
ed Mr. Gardiner of Minnesota, Mr. Gernon of New York, Mk, Maaugalk.
of California, Miss Matthews of the Children's Bureau, Mk. HamlareOht
of Wisconsin, Mks. Semple of Pennsylvania.
-A.
-
;Aion end insnecticn service of the
.ms4
The functions of the inv
l.e.-Lbert Stewart,
hcd. 14 M
d.
were
reparG7.1n of Le.bv,,,
Chief of the Sa7v2xe.
Mi. Ethelbert 3tewart. Me War Labor liminis.%ration bill provided
certain services in the "Copaztment of Labor. Aniko.lg them was the
Intestigation and Inspection Service. I was appointed July 8th,
so we have not been in existence very long. I think the states have
all received a letter announcing the fact that it was organized and
ready to form cooperative@magements.
The functions of the Investigation and Inspection Service)
outlined by the Secretary of Labor) are as follows: "a force of
investigators will also be needed for the various other services here
contemplatei. In view of the fact that the service of an inspector
examiner and investigator may hlso be combined in one man) especiallr
at the beginning of the work, and also that the handling of a field
force Which travele fremi place to place is a large task in itself,
!believe the greatest econow and efficiency can be obtained by coma
binin these field forces under their secretary in one inspector in
charge and in a special service to be called Investigation and Inspection Service. It will be try purpose to require all new cervices
in the Department to use this Investigation and Inspection Service
so far as possible in field work. For this purpose the inspector in
charge of this service will provide, on consultation with other
branches of the government, metnods of inspection, investigation and
examination, including blank forms, and so forth, and will transmit
such report to the various branches to which they belong.
-
A1Jn6 tnat lin) / w)zole to the various states as follows -is the thing that interses us most directly:
wWW_le this seri/co is equipped with a force af factory inspectors as well as inveWgators rho work directly from the central
office in Tash-Ingtont it 13 verv7ttaless the pyrpose of the director
of the Inve.otiGat:on and Inspacton Serviioe to cocperate with am:
use all of it. R-TurC.LPS th,
t aow exit in the va:sio-is states
lhereever a sate buteat:. of lnbor Eratictics, indu;Ar:011 commission, or
other stnto7y state
aci¼xI ce, be 'of s--ivice in mpkirg local
investigations. their coop3rai;ion is eaknestay so2icited. Wh,rever
stnte factory Inspection offioia1s are in a position to assist or are
in need of ronistance in eLfoll(-,thg state factory laws on government contracts, a close cooperation is offered and desired."
I hare recevel. lettersfrom a mmber of states. Practically
all siirly olrleree. a ccu.:0173te and, absol-ite coopeation, witnout
raising any questIon. '21.10.,7e are two that raicIsd. q::,estions, and I
want to nnswer them. One is from Pennsylvnnia, whi:b very oroperly
rnises a question nsto uctsthar there is going to be any disturbnnce
ofthe orgnnization of the Industrial Commission or the Depnrtment of
Laho: and. Industi7y in Pennsylvania. That is precisely vih,At we do
not w-rt to do. Therev -3r you are (Ign.
:1Azed to ;.fot irfo2mation thnt
it.
Therev:,ryouPROJ
I wan“ want,
eqr,ip17,
zro t:Llt you can do
e t5.?t
that withr71i'. a drhin upcn y.-av v‘:enze:i, I wa:It you to gi:e me the
facts an pny the till. That wjil do two tai-:1J,s:
It will enable me to use my force in states where they are
not eouipped to do it, and .use my fund.i for states where they are
simply act able to do s',yr -erk of thnt
rori.Taestiolx. .)rte of t'le other states
Th.t brings up t
raised a question as to the fud3; chat tVrn-e wflling to do everything they can t but they have no mcnsy even to pay vnilroad fare, nnd
S3 OA,
a state S wining to cooperate and
Now. I ha,re; ?n..1 ,I.:1(J
he.4 and has the (:3uipmnt to gs ti infomation, I cnn see that you
lose nothing by it; p:c cthe.r sates niat are equipped to get
it without
detrim
to tnemoelveo do not want tal their
bills pad too.
A f,mcAcn of t7,Js 32:71/1,;e .s simply to.secure facts upon
every coacalvale
A firm,for instance, is falling down on its delivery of war
material. There nre all sorts of reasons, but usually, if they get a
chance, they say "Labor conditions." we have all sorts ofinves-
•
•
- 15 ut a concern
en told this afternoon abo
tigations. I have just Ire
it is hoarding labor
ut 3,000 people, and yet
abo
s
loy
emp
lly
rea
t
y told
tha
ple on its payro1 absolutel
eig;at and ten thousand peo
ause it has a ten
lay down" on the job, bec
to"
,
put
out
ct
tri
res
to
tract.
or twelve per cent con
o the
we are able to put them int
When you get these facts,
willingness to
ably have the power and
hands of thoze who presum
make the correction.
many demands
s Board: There heve been
rie
uot
Ind
War
the
of
Mr. Frayne
ng to the emortant labor laws appled
women at night
for the letting dovel of imp
g the employment of
tin
ula
reg
s
law
en,
ldr
ployment of chi
day rest in seven.
st,in regard to the one
time, laws, where they exi
set aside laws
sions have been asked to
In some states the Commis
he had a war contract,
of a manufacturer thet
ent
tem
sta
e
mer
the
n
upo
extra machines, he
lition of two or three
tal
ins
the
of
e
aus
bec
or
asiie the state law.
walted to iremdiately set
ce, even after
found in every instan
Upon investigation, we
to grant thie
e unanimous in agreeing
wer
eon
mis
Com
the
of
some
it.
there was no necessity for
special privilege, that
se very
not ripe to set aside the
We feel that the time is
eguard these
e does come, we should saf
tim
the
il
Unt
s.
law
books
important
te plate upon the statute
4 taken so meg; years
prelaws. iVea$1/1
and
t
men
err
gov
well as the federal
y have
of the various states as
the
e
aus
bec
m,
pretense of patriotis
m aside
vent those Who, under the
the
set
to
use
ernment, use it as an exc
m
are
a contract with the Gov
the
of
e
e bigger profite than som
in order that they may mak
Ws are all in
the world for democracy."
making. They say "Bave
en for the world."
"Save the women and childr
say
I
t.
tha
of
or
fav
rate
t to tell the states how to ope
I do not want to attemp
rial Boari,
t to tell you that the War Indust
their laws, but I do wan
y useful
ver
11)
t
wi2.
has certain powers tha
of which I am a member,
the War
of
on
Through the Priorities Divisi
to the various states.
going
al
eri
possible to prevent the raw mat
those
Industries Board it is
ing
vid
violation of the etandaeds, pro
canto a plant, if there is a
a
is
If it
accepted as a government policy.
the
h
standaeds have been
wit
contract, and it has not complied
nen- having a government
finished promaterial may be stopped, or the
raw
the
,
nts
eme
uir
req
ding as a
if there is a general understan
duct need not be shipped,
rmat of thit conference.
- 16 voice the sentiment of labor and I voce the sentiment of all
of you men and women Who have Ooined with te in this great work of protecting women and Children of the country, that tho:,- a 7.awo.noust remain;
that when the time comes for a spet.lial privilege to be given as an absolute necessity to meet a war emergencF or a serious war sivaijon, it
will be done by consent and by arrangement sach as you make here on cooperation with the government.
Miss Barnum of the Investigation and Inspection Service.
I was tremendously interested the other night when we were
having a discussion as to the employment of women on night work to hear
from Mr. Frayne, who is the labor representative on the War Industries
Board, that what I had almost been made to believe was an emergency
already existing, did not exist at all. The War Industries Board is
constantly meeting whatare called emergencies by mechanical devices
and by transfers of contracts to other localities where things may be
machinery into service,
manufactured, taking over a factory and pressing its
and so forth, before setting aside the night law for women.
W. Frame. Since the formation of the Department of which Mrs, Stewart
is the chief, I have turned over probably a hundred or mare cases coming
to me in the War Industries Board. I have had replies on all those they
had time to investigate. Reports from that department proved very clearly
to me that it is performing a very useful work. They have been able
to obtain information setting forth just what the conditions are and
suggest how they can be remedied and incidentally, review many of the
reasons for the requests for a special privilege in having the law
changed to suit their particular convenience.
-17-
E - Women in Indust7y.
1.
The organization of the
federal Woman in Ind
was described by Mlss Mar
ustry Service
y Van Rloeck, Chief of
the Service.
Miss Van Kleecic. The Wcm
an in Industry Service ha
s only a mall
staff. It has a m.4all
er staff that it will have
laber, because it
is just in its beginaing
s. It J..; designated as the
adviser to the
Secretary of Labo: on
all problems affeeting wcaen
e
and
of the Woran in Industry
the director
Se-vice represents women
in industry on
the War Labor Policies Boa
rd.
There are in several oth
er federal departments act
relating to women in ind
ivities
ustry. The Ordnance Depart
ment o curicusly
enough, was the first to
organize a woman's branch,
last January. It
is represented in the te
n district offices of the
Ordnance Department,
and is carrying fozward wha
t might be c ailed indastria
l counselling
in matters affectiing women,
in the plants working on
contracts for
the Ordnance Department.
They are not makirg invest
igations as such;
they are not enforcing law
s; they are endea‘oring
to devise plans with
reference to problems aff
ecying women, aad, to tha
t end, are maintaining as cicse connection as possib
le with state and local
with the other divisions
agencies and
of the government.
The Navy has stated tha
t it would prefer to hav
hand;ed by the Woman in
e its prcblems
Industry Service, and
for that ,.purpose pla
designate a woman inspec
n to
tor and detail her to wor
k with the Woman
Industry Service.
in
The Public Health Service
is charged ty execut
recent17 with the contro
ive order
l of activities in the
federal departments
relating to health, with
the exception of such
activities as those
the Surgeon General's off
in
ice and the studies of
occupational diseas
which have been carried on
es
for some time 137 the
tureau of Labor
Statistics of the Departmen
t of Labor. So that
the Public Health
Service is necessarily
taking up health in
industry, and the
touches women in indust
refore
ry.
The Federal Board for
Vocational Education
certain Responsibilitie
is charged with
s along those lines,
and is therefore
toudking the problem.
also
In order to bring togeth
er these Various
Industry Service has org
groups the Woman in
anized a zCounoil
on Woman in Indust
these is a repreSstt
ry in which
ative of every div
ision of the Npaxtm
and a repressntative of
ent of Labcr
these other feisra
l groups which have a relati
to women in industry.
on
•
want to establish working relations between the state
department of' labor ac the federal government and. I should like
i.s.,;ry service wishes to be regarded
to say that the Woracm
as your Washirgton repissontive so to speak. We are here to
give you information aivrat Do1i;es and standards affecting women.
aw"Nirly possible as a medium of exchange from
We are here to serve
ano?.71e,".
7.abor
f
departmelA
one
2-
An account of the 17) -me.ne Div!.ei2ns2 of state Labor Departments
was given ty the fot.s states wi.%ch have eLtablished them:
Minnesota, Wisconsin, Pann*ivania and. New "cv.-1c.
Mr. Gardiner of Mannesota. When I first entered the department as
a factory inspector in 1904 we had no woman's division. I left the
department for about four years and returned to it as assistant to
the Commissioner, and when X returned. a weman's division had been
organized under tnc leadership of the 1Ae Mrs. Starkweather. I had
not fo]lowed the work of tals division from the tlme it was organized
until I gut back to the departmeni: and ergewd in its activities. I
c)uld not see the neees(Aty for a wman's division. When I had been
able to watch the de7alorment of the work for two years I changed my
mind. There ae so 14)%ov tdings that they take from the Commissioner's
shoulders. Today I cannot unders.;.and why any state can get along in
the field of labor o.A! in the field of women in industry without a
women's division.
Mr. Hambrecht of Wileonlin, The functf.ons of the Industrial Commission
might be classifie _alto sfey ard sanitation, the administration of
workmen's comperisetion laws, woman and chlld labc.:, mediation and arbitration, and duties pertaining to apprenticeship.
There are very few state laws existing so far:.- 1 as rigid regulations are concerned, onay general statutes leaving to the Industrial Commission the working out of the detailed applicqtion of the
general statutes. For inetance, cnly a year ago we worked out and .
put in the rules an. regulatlo:Ls, so far as the stete is concerned,
prohibition of night work in factories for women. That was put on
the statute book four or five months after the war was declared and
at a time when ni< work was creeping into the industries of Wisconsin. It met with some opposition, but not a great deal, and now
it is an established fact.
I think that if Wisconsin has succeeded in putting on the
statute books any laws for the welfare of women and children it has
been because of the Division of Woman and Child Labor and because of
the confidence that the Commission has in the executive heads of the
several departments that are helping us work out these problems.
•
Mr. Palmer of ?epnlvaie. Tri 3913 our Pepertment of Labe- and.7Lendae; CLat tins the Act roedustry was developed ix.,
vided for reTIesentation fer woloan on thu il,dustrLal board. Also
in the Divisi.on of F,ygiene a wowan member was proviied. As we develeped or department and drew. we developed our woman's deeiisiov.
,11 1i.;1k, that we pvt a sieecJal inepeetthr at the )
'
. eel
It was in 3.94,
of it. We have given cur eelesa inspectors equel pay with tha ne,-nr2
:ed)ng,
today we have a $2,C00, i2,8r0 end $1,50P g"
,
We feel. as Mi.nneecta hs stte5. thet utlier stsees
have it. 7e bel1eT7e hi all will #ave it, benaass the weren hJeu
their own problems and texation withert represeLtetion is st,J11 enjrst.
Mr. I4ynch_offiew vor'I.Recently threugh the eooperatien cf a geoul,
of women who 1,e,e elevs been prominent in New Y-ei.k city se, fer is the
' omen in indu,tr7 .is coneerned,
welfare of ,
heve been enabled to establish a woa,an's tureeu, and for tie pzesert that brrear. is *16.tylg finenabled us to establish
anced 0y 'L;hase women and their sympathizers,
it.
It is working out its own destny for the tithe being, and will
undaubted4 be a most valuable aid to the IDdustril Commission of the
State of New York, Te hope that in the next be.dget for the .department
theie State will finance that bureau on the same oasis that it does all
of he other bureaus .
Experience showing that women had been used on their staffs
Nith excellent results was cited by Ohio, California, Indiana. and Massachusetts.
3-
Night Work. The most important discussion was on a plan presented
by Miss Van Kleeck, as under cnnsieLeration
reguleting night work
for women throughout the cannery. Only eight states have laws or
regulatinne which rnegurrocelly foreci
worl: fer women; Massachusetts, New york, Pennsylvania, Delawere, Iaiana, Wisconsin, Nebraska
and Oregon.
Miss Van. Kleeck. Of ail the problems we have met, the question of
night work is the most sericua and the most peeseing. I want to present
the various phases of it as we have cncoun.,ered them, to lay before
you
the plan which is under ccneieteretion in Washingten, and to have from
you your op:i.nion of the WeelIe preceedine, ate. eeneolally evidence which
you will bring to us from the statee
ti
l3 problem of night work.
I was
July-. A greet
to the woman's
tunity to deql
connected with the Oz.dnai.o DI,artm,,nt from January to
icFly eclueste fief emotion from E:tete labor laws come
Brenzh of the Or%inenee Del
ment, and we had an opporwith every one of them in detail and to watch changing
- 20
conditions. We went on the assumption that no
request for permission to employ women at night would go unin
vestigated on the
ground that the state labor law did not permit it,
because we
wanted to be in a position to state the facts;
and so in a number
of instances we told the employer thnt the stat
e would have no
power to grant exemptions, that the federal governme
nt would not
grant exemptions for night work, but we would go over
the details
of his problem and see what other way there might be
out of it,
in order to prevent night work.
In a very large majority of cases it was perfectl
y clear
that night work was the last thing that the plan
t needed; there
were very many problems of management and of indu
strial relations
for which the happy solution seemed to the empl
oyer to be to put
women on a night shift. Sometimes it was a prob
lem of too long
hours, interfering with labor supply. Some
times it was a general
problem of employment.
But as more and more men were drafted into
the military
service,the cases which came to us began to
show much more setious
aspects. They began to show such a situatio
n as this: A labor shortage of 5,000 in a plant working on an absolute
ly essential product
upon which the winning of the war could clea
rly be shown to delAW.;
housing facilities in precess of construc
tion which would house
2,000 --- leaving a shortage of 41 000, at best
; added to that an entirely new program of production, by which
orders should be completed from three to six months in advance
of the original date set
for completion. And when you have a plant
behind in its original
contract, and then' they receive instructions
that those orders must
not only be up to date, but that they must
be three to six months
in advance, you see the production problem.
In that town it was held that there were women
in the families
of workmen already there, Who, with
out any additiOnal housing, would
be available for employment.
Now, you all know that in industrial plants
which have not
hitherto employed women in many of the muni
tions industries, it is
not possible to put woman on
a solid day shift, because there are
many
occupations that women cannot complete,
end the process of replacement
of men by women goes forward in
a partial sort of way, introduc
ing
women here and there, where they coul
d take men's places. Then,
when you add to that a practice whic
h is followed in many plants
and. certainly a desirable practice
--- namely, rotation of shif
ts, you
have an adiitional complication with
reference to the employment of
women, that is, that if the shifts
rotate the employer is quit righ
e
t
in saying "How are we going to meet
the problem of introducing wome
n
without night work if we are to have
rotation of shifts?"
-21 Recent studies by the Public Health Service, not yet in
print, demonstrate beyond doubt that night shifts are less productive
than day shifts; that, moreover, long hours at night are utterly
wasteful. The charts, for instence, showing production hour for hour
over a 12 hour period, indicate that those lest two hours amount,
I might say, to nothing. If I recall, the production figures for
the first hour of the night showed something over 10,000 of a given
article, and in the last hour it is about 200, in eomperison with
the 10,000.
Two things have been perfectly clearly demonstrated. Night
shifts are not good for men and women. The vitality is low in the
morning hours. It has been shown, for example, with reference to en
employee five years on night shifts, with time, -eresumhbly, to adapt
himself to night shifts,with time presumably, for the physiological
changes, if we may put it that way, which would make that man a night
worker instead of a day worker to take place --- it wa$ perfectly
clearly hown that there was lower vitality always in the morning hours
between two and three or four as compared with the day; that men are
not naturaliy nocturnal workers.
Now, ada to that the special effects on women. Women have
their work to do at home. It is the night worker usually who is
the most hard pressed economically. They are living in crowded quarters.
The difficulty of getting sleep by day is very great, and the consequence is that night work stands indicted from the point of
view
of production and the point of view of health of the workers. It
must
be our purpose to restrict andltradually to get rid of night work.
What is our present situation with reference to it?
We have
just eight states which have an unequivocal prohibition of
night work
for women. We have two states, Wisconsin and Massachusette,
which
can grant exemptions from the night work law. $o we have six
states
which cannot grant exemptions under the state law prohib
iting night
work.
The production progress is in a very serious position. We
have enormously increied our army appropriations.
We have withdrawn men from industry and we are going to withdraw
them at a much
more rapid rate. We have also greetly increas d
the need for munitions.
We have been depending to a very large extent
upon English andnench
factories for some of our most itportant munitions.
Te have got a
war problem immediately before us, and we all
recognize that production must be now if we are to hold the gains
that have already come
to the success of the Allies.
That has resulted in two vary clear things:
First of all,
. night work is on the increase in those states
which do not prohibit
night work, and night work is going on in those
states without any
regulation b: stete labor laws or federal
control, and without any
supervision to determine whether in a given
case the night work is
essential or net.
a
•
•
-22In those states which have night work laws we are en,
countering,- and our experience is very thoroughly corroborated by
the statements of the enforcing officials,- evidence of dieregerd
of the present night work laws; and, more serious, because that can
be met by presecution, we Are encountering evidence that there will
be a concerted effort to repeal these night work lews at the coming
session of the legislature, unless we arrive at some constructive plan.
or before
6 A. M.
Briefly, the plan which is under consideration in Washington,
but which is not yet finally decided upon or finally announced, is
this: That the federal government control night work in all states
industrial
in cooperation with the statedepartment of labor or state
No empermitted.
commission; that hereafter no night work will be
con.#
government
ployment of women after 10 P. M.* in a plant working on
tract or a subcontract for the federal government would be permitted
under this plan, except by an emergency certificate granted by the
Secretary of War or theSecretary of the Navy, transmitted through the
State Industrial Commission or the State Department of Labor after
approval by the Secretary of Labor Who has designated the Wo4SA in
Industry Serviceas his immediate representative to deal with those
cases if that plan goes through.
That would mean this:- that if a plant wished to employ
women after 10 P. M. or before 6 A. M. , it would make application
to the office of the Secretary of War, if it is working on a contract for the war Department. There would be a two-fold investigatian
by the War Department and theDepertment of Labor. First of all, the
necessity for production would be clearly determined and the oossi,
bility of meeting the production of that article by a different
method of distribution of the contract in cooperation with the War•
Industities Board or by some other method of release of men from nonessential industries in the particuiar community, by the employment
of men on night shifts, ot, from the point of view of working conditions, the possibility of meeting that situation by two day shifts
of women or by different methods of employment, among them the formation of a night shift of men. The same preliminary investigation would
determine the conditions Which vould be required before agy,such permit were issued.
No plant would be allowed to employ women more than eight
hours by day or night. Every plant would be required t 0 give an
intermission of three-quarters of an hoUr for the night ItnCh period
and to see to it that it was possible to secure a Wholesome hot meal
at night. Ten minute rest periods would be r(quired in the working
periods. It would be necessary that transportation should be provided which would be safe and convenient for the women. It would
be necessery that there should be adequate supervision of the night
shifts. In addition, there would be added certain requirements which
would grow out of the situation in a particular plant.
•
-23ting temporary exemrtions
(a) The Massachusetts elan for gaan
;.ssion legal,ly empowered to take such
as a war measur?. theclee1;1 a eomu
eady.
ttetion, wae cieecribed. by Mz. ",t0.1.
lomment, in general favoring it.
The federal leNi.h breught eut mueh
a national progrers and we also
Mk. nontreget_pf wiecotr.in, rre have
labor laers elust give way at any
have a vtae 7leoaian, r217e state
when
tvioe fyom the federel government
time ulider wise end jurlicieue
yever
do
to
g
gcin
nds it. We are
the matter of riL'iery Leeeseit:' dema
e
stat
y
ever
of
true
ow that that is
thing that is in oee: eewee'l and Ikn
tary
mili
a
is
it
must first know that
here, to he7.p wiA this wc.1,: ..)11i; we
rae7.ed for more thcin he auj;ht
cont
A c-oneex:toe- may :a/e
neceesity
is
state that all they have to do
to. If they have a ieeli% i. the
y
ssar
on hend and tba it is neee
to 5:hoof tit they have a b.,,g contract
lt
elei
it over, it may be a diff
to abuse the etete labnr 1C4W5 to put
it is
Commission of Wisconsin that
th5.ni; te c:invLece the :nduetr.al
me
rnment to say, it seems to
tree, but it is for the fe0era1 gove
t to
ough
factory with its produe:t
as to whether or rot that pepiAcular
out
labor laws in order to put
be allewei to encroach upoll the state
its product.
etary
by saying it is the Secr
MI:§s 71-41_neeek. Let us eophasize that
not
and
elt,
in the "Tar Departre
of war whe relet declere an emergency
the
in
nt
rtme
ts the War Depa
a caT,,taren or a lieutenant who represen
field.
more
the new draft may draw men
Mr. Tlarlxs of OY.o.. I think that now
ests
eged with requ
induetry, and we are going to be besi
k the only
thin
I
and
s,
for eeamptLoas ,.on eli the various line
.eal governfecie
the
d here, that
solution for it ic the cne suggeste
its, but only
perm
e
ld issue thes
ment tlivagh the Secretary of War shou
eration of
coop
made through the
after pro9er invest!gation has been
the state department.
prohibition of night work except
Mise ValLyleeck. How would the
under aeItificete affect Ohio?
use under our law there is no proMrl. Tea-ens. Very materially, beca
for women under 18.
hibitioe. of night work except
Miss 1121 Kleeck.
extent?
g on to some
I presume you have night work goin
Mr. Fearnes. Considerable.
of view of Ohio would it be a gain
Miss Von Kleeek. From the point
ral
rse to have established the fede
in labor legislation or the reve
Commission would share?
control in which the Industrial
•
4
- 2,4 Mr. Kearns. It would be a gain in labor legislation in a way 0 because we have no laws prohibiting it at this time. Of course we
would like very much -- or my personal opinion is that Ohio would
like very much -- to prohibit night work; but whether or not *t
would be possible to do it at this particular time is another question.
Miss Van Kleeck, But if the federal government ssw that it cotild oe
Of assistance to you in efforts later to esteblish prohibition of
night work -Mr. Kearns. I think we would w-lcome it for the reason that it *mid
be a help to us.
Mr. Lynch of New York. I am fearful that if something is riot clonal
when the legislature meets, people will be there advocating a suspension of all of the labor laws that affect the working of women
in production, and they re able to point to Massachusetts which hir‘s
granted a number . of variations under which women work at night.
No matter whether they were justified or whether they were not, thAlt
will not be any evidence at all. The simple facts that they have
granted them and that women a re working in Massachusetts and that
Ohio has no law prohibiting women working at night is sufficient.
It is hard going for Us who are interested in the preservation of thts law.
Just as soon as this draft becomes operattve the demand for
labor will be accentuated, and women- are going to work at night whethysr
we who are trying to prevent it and understand its dangers ';like it
or not. That situation is going to confront us, and it is the part
of wisdom to try to meet it now. Personally, I believe that the *
proposition that you have put forth here, which seems to have been
well thought out, is the proposition which in the end will result
in saving the labor laws andthe statutes that now prohibit the employment of women at night, and will be of assistance to those states
that have not yet enacted laws prohibiting the employtkant of women
at night, which permit women to work in some instances without atly
restriction at all . It will be of great assistance to those stetes,
both during the war,-and especiilly after the war.
If we once weaken and take the laws off the statute books,
then we are going to have a hard tiae indoed to put them back there
after the war ends. I would rathE,r see them remain there and see
the federal government Assume charge of this situation, grant these
permiim, wokkeight hours during the twenty-four; employ women under
requests made by the federal government or the proper ageacies, and
attach to the permit "For the period of the war only or for such
length of tire thereafter as may be necessary to restore pte-war
conditions."
•
-25I should think it ould
If that can he worked out --- and
th71.nk that the
here --on the basis that has hen explained
t
1.esponsibility will assume it and tha
age%cy thai ho.i3.d as..1):1),a tae
n
sio
s will termineta at the conclu
the rezponsibility and the permit
e time thereafter, and it will be
of t'ne war or within a reasonabl
trs
to the progressive people of the cta
an incentive anci encouxe3ea,ent
s protecting women Ind children,
that nave not yet secured these law
night woe-., and it will acsist the
and especially the prohib 4.tion of
*heir ls on the statute books
states that 'neve dne .1t to maintath
did prior to the war, shortly
ard they csn enforce their laws as they
I 1.row that I am in favor of this,
after the comlusion Of h;ostiliAos.
New Jerrey if such a
.i Keck, That would be the o:fect in
Var
h?
plan as we are discussing went throug
d molcome anything of
Colonel Bryant of New Jersey. I think we woul
An open letter to tha
that kid. When we entered the war I wrote
that laws protecting
the
ployers cf the state, calling attention to
should be enforced to
ting ztc
women and children and also lews protec
d
tt had obtained in Englan
the limit, anl. printing ant the experience
of
n
dow
ng
aki
bre
77 e in the
particularly that there was nn economic
exception, on enthose laws. We ha70
for
a velj rw:h easier thing
cour6e it
furement • :
pro
law
1:7eve no
fozcement c tes4ws lihere we
us to ins d; on t
g
kin
wor
were
ers who
work which would confront the employ
hibitig
a three-shift dv.
honsycomb-.d with work on
Cf corse, New Jersey is ertirely
state in
e munitinns than any other
munitions. I imagine it has mor
tlon t its A.7,4,
the union, certainly in propor
great reariy of the5e
wunition6.
on
over thirty thousand people
empying
t-h.p:,r shifts, s.d tr,'Y are
firms are runnint three eigh
'cry difit
Tt is gong to
women, )o, on some of the
very
be
ld
o - 5.e-en'i, 1,6 maes, but I wou
ficult for them if that enf
that if
k
Yor
ner from Neu,
Commis
glad to do it. I agree ug..7, the
rather see
at rr.v.i,e 1-Utions I would
there is any breeking doxr
it come from the federal .ov .,rnater'.
MI.GS
(b) The o..11,1'
k for sLimon,
t
wor
nigh
ught tos
hro
pre sure
by the departments e&
•1,7
ao t..- ) the bad effects of
4ws reported
qith
the stfiad taken
woman's
h
stood firr ':r her
miniY.Y . Palmer of PennELA2ria. Pen
t
ges
ler
,1
ert quell fzom on
ng
ssi
law; that in fact of a very Ilrg
pre
--4was
, At q
t
tha
tion plants in the United States
.,s,plies in
t
los
hRd
we
when
ve,
e-si
efc'
her
jle. man, y
drive, we stood. 4-iatfootedl
t to
rep
7Y:
'
aging affiner, statine .
AtAae -0 saws,
4
- 26 n in Massachusetts
Mt. Mulready of Massachusetts. A very big institutio
itportent part
very
a
gun,
ing
Brown
where they are manufacturing the
Let me say,
it.
ed
tigat
inves
we
and
of the war, wanted overtime work,
apevery
to
ds
atten
who
or
too, that we have a !special investigat
does
and
s
sitie
neces
the
into
plication, goes to the plant, looks
case he went to that
everything preliminary to the hearing. in this
was more a lac*
it
that
plant and returned and made the suggestion
if the permit
ss
thele
never
of management than a real emergency, but
of the Brown,ery
deliv
the
was nbb granted there would be a delay in
ces. So
mstan
circu
ing gun, and that we could not permit under any
We will
days.
y
we said, 'Well, we will give you a permit for thirt
aid.,
they
And
it.
send word to Washington and let them investigate
the
mine
deter
to
They sent an inspector there,an expert engineer,
it was really and
that
found
was
it
and
,
truth of what we suggested
of real war emergency.
truly a case of lack of management more than one
requests from emMt. Fambrecht of Wiscons1n. We have had several
request came enThe
ployers, and I have one distinctly in mind.
the federal governng
dorsed by a captain of the militia, representi
importance to win...
ment. Certain ordnance was declared to be of vital
g the night they
ning the war, and unless they could work women durin
in the time conwould be utiable to get out the particular product
tracted for.
rently from what
we handled the proposition a little diffe
is responsible
they did in Massachusetts. We think that the state
suggested that the
in reference to administering state laws. They
I answered both the
law interfered with the national program, and
ps that was true, that
perha
that
employer and the captain of ordnance
reference to working
with
ssion
it was an emergency that required conce
Wisconsin's law was
of
conditions, but that the Industrial Commission
encies, and that he
emerg
war
not passed fof the purpose of passing upon
National Defense
of
the Council
should get his certificate from either
he would have no difficulty
or the Ordnance Department of Washington and
of necessity had been determined
withthe Commission when the certificate
about three and a half
upon. He said he would do that. That was
from him,
er
furth
ng
nothi
months ago, and I have heard
contracts for the
Mr. 'Gernon of New york. We investigated some 400
early in our
We
very
found
ago.
s
War Department a couple of month
proportion to the
in
no
out
investigation that the contracts ware given
the
made
emergency in many
capacity of the plant, and that is what had
a contract which is
instances. There is no necessity for giving a man
is Where most
ten times greater than he has any capacity to fill. That
of the difficulty has come from.
aska the manufacturers come time
Mr. ,Norman of Nebraska. Out in Nebr
the governor or to the labor commissioner
and time again to appeal to
night work law. we have not suspended
kt the capitol to suspend the
live up to the law, to help those
anything in Nebraska. We make them
get them at the next session. They
states that have not got laws to
k, on time, most of them, without any
get their war orders out: I thin
difficulty in Nebraska.
4-
5
6-
oduction of women into new occupations
Hazardous oc,vneil..iene. The intu
view of determining upon and keeping
was discussed from the point of
special hazards. An investigation of
them out of i'hoe eihirt present
tit.ons in a number of plants in Niagara
occelpatia:es e.nd of wo-eking noni
Eleeck as an instance of the kind of
FalJe was deKerf.bed oy Miss Van
l to this program, It also illscientifie study which is essentia
by the
ion as the work was done jointly
ustrated a method of cooperat
h
whic
ons
pati
e on Hazardous Occu
state de7eer'kzent and the Conmitte
artments.
represen%e several federal Liep
work" came up, and evoked conThe suLje:(7.t of 7eoualeem for ecual
eading and
se being attacked as misl
sirierable (17'ereass'on, ne phra
brought out.
the difficulties of enforcement being
on the rei3roads was raised
The subject of the emiplo.Lpe:It of women
e
instanced in upholding stat
ki se-eral states. Difficulties were
of
use
the railroads. The
standarde under government control of
A Woman's Service Section
women in unable occupations was cited.
nistration was described by its
recent).y established in The R. R. Admi
manaeer, Miss Pauline Ge:dmark.
which has bean particularly
Mis:_ge)delprae. This is a small section
care of the interests of women,
app4ined for the pvreAse of taking
the Railroad Administration.
acteg urkr.lee the Dtvielon of Labor of
April, and the figures have
11,67e wo,Li 2(Yetioilea in the service last
not ye Peen coLapil,ed fo.e
to inspect conditions of
it in the intention of the Service
icipation
this werk well be limited. The pert
.
lace, bat neeeesar:ly
er 27
numb
r
General Orde
Of the stet?, labor lerarta:onts is needed.
in force
are
:A9AP3 that the labor laws that
of tDer ee.6e7.ralizes
fede
way
a
ice. This in
in the states arbler to the rai.:.road serv
inthe
s
cial
offi
the loral ste lais and leavez in the hands of the
nonroads to any
spect7.on. They ca dkaer the attention of the Rail
observanee ef labor laws.
secure
The wemea in the railroad service are the first to
under
red
assu
is
n.
This
equal pay for equal work w(V.hout exceptio
every
for
ized
the new wage orders . The rates of ppy are standard
aen do.
as
just
ngs
occupation and women • participate in the new ruli
•
- 28 -
For instance, a woman who clea,:is coaches, is paid a minimum
of 28 cents an hour and, a m.Lurn of 40 cents. It is not possiol.e for
such women to work for less than 28 cents at hour. A year ago w1..2n
women began to be token inc the se•vi.:.•.e in sucla numbers they we-l-e
getting 18 and 19 cents, and. thee was a great s111.,s';itiltiozi of womfn
on account of the fact that they were cheap.
It was found. in 03-lio
that women were bEi±ng taken in fo 18, 20, and 21 cents as laborers
and section hands, when you could not possibly get a man under 26
to 30 cents.
The railroads had the week before been directed to discontinue the use of women a s section. labor3rs anct as truckers in
freight depots and warel-gAvges. ThiOleemeci i4rope.r work for women,
who should b e transftrzed into some class of labor suitable for
their strength and with proper regard to their health.
4
•
e,
nditions Servic
F - Working Co
rking Conditins
d. plans of thc Wo
an
on
ti
za
ni
ga
d by Miss Thorne,
The or
1.
bor were d.sczibe
La
of
nt
r,
im
ar
ip
l'
Service of
er.
:t
.7.h
di.
t
an
Assist
e .is one of the new
Conditions Servic
g
in
rk
Wo
e
Th
was written by the
Miss Thorne,
of its functions
n
io
pt
ri
sc
de
is
war servf.ceE. Th
rt
itions in the
.bo
L:)
er of working cend
Secretary of
tt
ma
e
th
to
in
nditions which
exa.Llino
andards as to co
st
e
th
e
in
rm
t rules embodyto dete
stries; to adop
du
war industries;
in
x
wa
e
th
tne best means
ined in
; to detemine
em
should be mainta
th
ng
ni
ai
pl
dards and to
rds and ex
nce of such stan
na
ing such standa
te
in
ma
d
an
edoption
above purToses.P
for securing th
orities for the
th
au
e
at
st
cooperate with
should
as to just what
nd
ou
gr
e
th
er
ov
we deterIn going
itions Service,
nd
Co
g
in
rk
Wo
e
rsial isscope of th
on as a controve
ti
es
qu
e
coma within the
ag
eA
th
es.
uld exclude
controversial issu
th
wi
al
de
mined that we wo
to
es
-- Safe,
e other agenci
main divisions
e
re
th
to
sue., There ar
in
s
sthis Service fall
and Labor Admini
The field of
e and Medicine
en
gi
Hy
al
ri
st
Indu
ty Engineering,
tration.
been better
al Safety has
ri
st
du
In
of
d
el
safety
The fi
rious states have
va
e
Th
o.
tw
the Divithe other
is the function of
organized than
It
s.
on
ti
la
s and orand regu
e safety practice
iz
rd
agencies, codes
da
an
st
to
Engineering
sion of Safety
al standards.
dotermln4 f.giQr
to
d
an
s,
on
ti
ganiza
d
s been assure
itions Service ha
nd
Co
g
in
al
rk
on
Wo
e
ti
Th
rds and of the Na
Bureau of Standa
e
th
ency in the
of
n
io
at
n-governmental ag
no
the cooper
t
an
rt
po
im
st
the mo
Safety Council,
safety field.
Medicine
al Hygiene and
ri
st
I
du
of
on
si
dantization
The Divi
for the stan
rk
wo
d
an
s,
rd
lookza
health ha
ational work,
uc
e
ed
will investigate
rg
e
la
ak
:t
;
.
de
At the
t will un
in industry.
s
rd
of health cedes,
za
ha
th
al
he
elimination of
Treasu'rY
ingtioNard the
the Secretary of the
,
)r
La
of
ry
ecta
to conesti"
request of the to detail personhel
e
ic
rv
se
th
al
he
b116
Dr. A. J.
ns Service.
mathorized the Pu
io
it
nd
g
Co
in
rk
Wo
e
of th
tute this Division
f.
Lan'a is Chie
The Chief of the Diliisfon of Labor Adin!.st7at',on is Dr. Will:law
lurportart
M. Leiserson. The relations between L.ana,geLient Lind er.ci,.1,),7ef:.i are an
ion
ring
s
product
in
enginee
:problem
production pro7-.10::., d.iffering from other
,:
Lal)or
The
involved
n
of
Divisio
he huan eler:lent
in that it is rodlfied
to
n.1i1y
ought
this relation
that
les
princip
the
6.eve/op
will
Administration
ship in prnductien, ani will ccnduct an elecational campa:i.gn for their die,.
seminationi
The wa.l: ;•ff t1.•=4:.th. arid Safe.,t7 and the Safety Engine ring Sections
2.
Q9r_:poratior: was described by hir.e, P. J.,. Br.aro.,
of theille:.tizenyz
AssistanT, Ohiaf Safety agineer,
has been
The 'Jan of,..00lPeratjon with the fed.er.a1J.(2.2artments which
3.
ed by
present
was
ent
Departn
e
Ordnanc
the
Safet7 Section of
Adop:t.4
3.7,cvto.
ca.n
4.
for
a.-cl.ezfLOalcs_st'....th2_1.LL...p.ieau_nf_act_dar_c11. .Aral:co or the need
nr.....t.... 12.
f rm aletz s
*Lon of woykers by the
5.
A tentti7e p"..an was discussed for VyysOccl eF.amin
U. S. R:ployment Burea:u, at the time of eLploymento
Se7.by cf th,i Public Health bervice, 6EJailed to
d;a4 W:Nvking•:;mlitions Service.
ly conducted repreUnfortunately, th.) rhyAcal exarrination as it is general
The
on.
sents to the emDloyea nothing more than an opportimi-;y for rejecti
the physical examination
employer, generally reakin[r„ Rec-.u.as no benefA from
The
d applicants.
iwpaire
of
I
sf.91a
excl4.1e
.
be
4r11,7;ss it
at the prose.:It
reaches
It
ent.
muplcym
for
ts
awlfcAn
a:41
acet; n7)t
requi7e 4 t 4a.: a condition of
ies
Lniurltr
Cros41
.7
arp44
-Nilo
Close
only
men wo Cloy() ft-cm one establl.shment to
emploracnt, and &a a matteg of fac4:,
phyLloal cmaoinations are re-e.:amined at unnecessarily .
another whih
frequent into)-9-a8)
will offer
ai whf.ch is proposed, and as tc which I hope you
Thin
to
service
present employment
suggestiGne, 1=v1de8 for the crtensim nf the
tates
necessi
t
include the physical exaa'6ion ac one of its flincY.ons ...,Tha
l capphysice
the
to
,dy
ezre
reilang
a stand.art libt of job reciut:eraerts
, secrpriA, a prepacity necseary in creo:c tt) a.z•cor:plis-o. that wo147. 1:; enails
wIlch i in itself a tremenm
eratioa of a stardard 11;sical eLan.':nation
which this employ,dous task°
entafl.a Coe aFss‘Pci- or. of the ilwlic!ai. staff
will be
Aoyment
i
ZOT erl
vlain
ment offiee, whee
emploYment
the
th
will
i
given a physical. exarrinatlon. L
ratipn his
conside
tacn ic
manager as to the propdr -dlacement of t:-.1e
be deviseo
must
physical capacity and possibly his temperament, .itnol thon there
information in ocder
some scheme whereby the factory physician may obtain this
- 31 that he may assist the employe
in regaining his normal condition
LI'
he be defective, or maybe assi
st him in getting the very best, out
of
himself that is possible to do unde
r his impaired condition.
Mr. Norman of Nebraska. we have
had experience with physical examinations at differ3nt corporations
. Take railroads, for example.
We have had it in times pas4i, but
it was used for a blacklist.
Mr. %sou of OallE2011. How
would yen expect to follow up a particular examination?
Dr. Sglby. The information would
be conveyed to the plant physician
in some way.
Mrs. Hoskins. You do have a plan
t physician?
Dr, Selby. Oh, Yes,. to take
care of the injuries and sanitation, and
that sort of thing.
msume that this plan would necessitate
the
preparation of a card which would
be given to the employee, good for
a certain period of time, poss
ibly a year. in that way he would get
a re-examination at least yearlj.
Mr, Gernon of New York . There is
nOthing that there has been se
much opposttion to on the part of
workers, as physical examination.
Personally, I would like to see
be properly conducted, but I do physical. examinations if they could
not agree with them for the abuses
that have been injected into it.
Mr. lynch of New Iork. I am in favo
r of the physionl examination of
wage earners. I do not see how anyb
ody connected with compensation
work can reach ;iv other cmclusion than
that there should be physical examination of wage earners, and that
the wage earner himself
Should know .v0hat is dangerous for him
to engage in. Surely, it
Shows no particular interest in the wage
earner to keep him in ignorance of some disease that he has, and
then permit him to go to
work at some process in a factory that mean
s certain death,
Dr. Meeker of the Bureau of Labo Stat
istics'
r
The employer has abusdd medical examinat
ions. The rnilroads abused
lots of things a long while ago.
It is time we forgot some of them
andlOaci and assisted the railroads. A grea
t many men and a great
many institutions have abused all sort
s of things in timec past, but
let us get together and get rid
of the abuses of excellent things
and go ahead. If ever we needed -hysical exam
inations, we need them
now, and now is the time for some action to be take
n to put the physical examination on the map and put it
there thrraughly.
32 If the Public Health Service is to conduct the physical
examination in all the plants of this country, it is quite SOMB
job that it wl11 have on its has. De pou contenplate socializing
the medical profession? Do you contemplate tai,: ander the Public
Health( Service practically every pra.:tieing p4sician throughout the
countr7T Beca4use that isv.itat it will meaa if you are going to
hanlle this ,job and going to handle it effectively, Are you ready
to answer that question, or do you pass it up?
Dr. Se.1...ta.. I can answer that question very qucikly by saying that
we have not got thal; far in our plan.
of
Mr. Gram_of Ortgon. Is it contemplated in these examinations
such
for
fee
a
pay
ee
employ
the
that
ons,
employees, or Ie-examinati
examination?
DI. E
0:139 no.
Selby whether he
Mrs. Sepli..4.e of PernszkeniA. I would like to ask Dr.
standards for the
such
praetieable or possible to work out
thinks jt
the form of codes
in
proper emplmment of men and that they may be issued
hand with a
other
the
as other state codes are issued, tying them up on
to use this
le
possib
system of examination Wanks. Tn other words, is it
women for the safety
system in such p way as to standerdize employment of
of women going into unusual employments?
cannot speak entirely with authority. I was speaking vith
Dr,
who is probably the
Prof. Frederick. S. Lee in New Tork the other day,
e, and he has been
fatigu
s
of
studie
on
leading man in the United States
test,
which measures
balance
spring
a
using what is known technically as
I see no
the
dual.
of
th
indivi
with a fair degre of accuracy the streng
the
ning
in
used
determi
be
reason wty tha'; s)ring -Jalanee test cannot
e
averag
d
Having
the
learne
average strength le..5 -red .in the cpe;!aon.
average
strtnth required iA a certain operation, the aseertainment of the
strangth CZ the person who is proposed to be placed on that operation can
no reason why that
be compared and be set down definitely. I see
out.
cannot be worked
5 -
The need of more thorough study of industrial seating, for differing
occupations was erghaslzed by several states and federal agencies,
'I
G. -
33 -
Resoluti9.0 adopted by the conference
as
M*. Lynch of New fork. / move that this conference go on record
opposed to any lowering or repealing of labor laws and labor standards set up in the various states, unless on recommendation from
federal. authority with competent jurisdiction, and that any modification or suspension is to be by federal authority of competent jurisdiction.
(The notion was seconded.) * p
It has been asked what I would say was competent jurisdiction.
There have been certain agencies working to win the war; first and
foremost the President of the United States in his status as Commanderin-Chief; if be should ask that certain standards should be suspended
or Changed, of course it would be done. If the Secretary of the Navy
or Secretary of War should recommend that, it would naturally be the
supposition that that was concurred in by the President, who is their
chief, and there would be acquiescence in that. If any such recommendation was made) I presume that it would only be made after consulting
with the various bureaus that have been handling the subject and with
the officers of the American Federation of Labor who have so far taken
quite a prominent part in the conduct of the war from the industry side.
We would therefore have faith in any recomaendation that might come
from Washington for either a suspension or a change of some standard
tit some of the states which might interfere with the winning of the war.
But Otherwise, we are opposed to it.
M. MqLaugh4n qf Cliforiia. Te have every reason to believe that there
will be a dr4ve to repeal labor legislation and the wiping off from the
statute books of things which are benefioial to labor and for the protection of women nd children, and we should oppose it and let it go
out to the world that we are so opposed.
Miss Abbott,
You can count on this machinery here in backing you up.
After some further discussion the motion was unanimously carried.
W._Gernoe of New York, 1 hope we will profit from this conl'e'rence by
having another one for the purpose of trying to bring the standards up in
the states that do not hage standards. X think if we had a conference
like this with time enough to work it out thoroughly, the firldinge of
the conference womld have great weight.
v
- 34,
Miss Abbott Thank you for the suggestion. I also want to say
that this conference is a genuine conference. We had in mind
getting you here before we went ahead, and, we wanted your advice
and experience. I hope YOU have gotten the idea from all of the
people of the Labor Depqrtment who have appeared before you that
Ne consider as a help a suggestion or opinion from you as to the
way in Which things are going 14 the field. The way in which you
can help us most is by telling us when an Order ha$ gone out and
we think it is working, that it is not working. That is the information we want, and we w4.11 use it at once. We want you to
suggest ways in which things are going wrong and can be improved
in any direction.
That we want to feel here is that the facts are being
put up to us in Washington, that full information is being sent in.
Information that comes from the labor officials of various states is
going to revelve most careful consideration in Washington, and because you do not get relief on one proposition please do not think
that you cannot put up the next one. It may be that the situation
will have changed in the ;meantime, aid that the next one can be
relieved.
0_0.- ixt.
-)
r. LA_ t vt e
SPLC1AL NOTICE
The Secretary cf Labcr has been requested to
address the Conference,
Earlier plans had scheduled
him to be out of town on :Ionday and Tuesday, but an
unex-Der.;ted. change has made it possible for him to be
in Tashington
'r7e are hoping that he will be able to
address tho Confcrance solx timc during its session4
.
00010.
IL_ -JP
pRnGRAM FOE:
CONFERENCE OF STATE OFYICIALS CHARGED WITH ENFORCENENT OF STATE
LABOR LAWS
Monday, September 30, 1918
Office of the War Labor Policies Board
1607 H Street N. 7.,
V:ashingon, D. C.
Morning Session - 10 A. M, - 1 P. M.
Openinc- of Conference by Mr. F.7an;:furte:.
Child Labor
Discussion led by Child Labor Division of the Children's Bureau,
Miss Julia Lathrop, Chief of Children's Bureau, presiding,
1. Method of reporting to state departments and to •employers
violations of state laws found in federal inspections.
2. Method ,:).f securing uniform reports of state and federal
certificates or work ;permits Issued.
3. General discussion of methods of improving the cooperation
between state and federal departments in the enforcement
glf child labor laws,
Afternoon Socsion - 230
Clauses introduced into Government Contracts
Major S.T.Roselisohn, Chairman Committee on Contract Clauses.
Inspection ,and Investigation Service.
Discussion led by Mr, Ethelbert S'Lewart, Director of the
Inspection and Investigation Service cf the Department of
Labor.
1, Coupeation with state uureaus ancl. frtctoly inspeetion
- nspection
departments in the matter of ir_vef'tition-; ad f i
so/vice.
rendez.
to
in states equipped
2. Maintenance of state standn.ds throigh sta-Le inspLction
and a minimum ztandard_hy zovernen':, axl. state inEeletors
in all states,
3. General problems of the Service.
Page two - Program, Cori-tin:Ilea.
Tu-ssda,y, October 1, 1918,
lbrning Session - 74.0 A.:11,
1 P. M.
7,rolnon in Industry
Discussion led. by Miss Mary Van Kleek, Direci;or of
Women in Industry Service, Department of Labor,
1, Inteo duc.t ion of women into hazardous aecupations.
2, Nit work for women.
3, Development of Vi'imen;s Divisions in state d.epartr:.ents,
4. Outstanding problems.
Afternoon Sc,,,ssion - 2.30 P. M.
Health and. Safety Work of Production Divisions
of the
War Deartment .7.nd the Shlry,ping
Mr. George Bell, P7esid2ing,
Inc3u3trial Rclkirs Gr,)up, Ernergeno„y Fleet
Corporation of the Shipring Board.,
Industrial Servi -:e Section,
the Ordnance Deasaxtmcnt.
Safety and Sanitation Branch,
the Ordnance Department.
Administration of Labor Standards
for Army Clothing.
Worng Conditions
Discussion led by Mr, Grart Farnilton, Director
cf th3
Working Conditiors Sewice of the De_rpartrient
Labc.:,,
I. Do state laNs
.t the p.rse..-kt emerge.-lcz;?
2, Physical vxaminations in
3. Caxrpaigns for
beadt;:ti
4
.
0
TOPICS FOR DISCUSSION REGARDING METHOD OF SECURING UnIkORM REPORTS
OF STATE AND FEDERAL CERTIFICATES OR WORK PEillITS ISLULD.
I. Points which might be covered in uniform reports:
A.
General es. re.:u4.r euloyment certifig4tigt•
1.
Number of children to whom certificates issued (or number
of "original" certificates issued) classified accordinc, to:
a. Locality( City or town - not county)
b. Aga
c. ex
d. Color
e. School grade attained
f. Kind of evidence accepted
g. Occupation or Industry, or both.
B.
2.
Number of certificates reissued (or number of subsequent certificates issued) classified according to locality.
j.
Number of certificates refused, classified accordinz to locality.
Atsation certgisAtes,
suç'az locality.
C. Poverty parmiie joked
II.
III.
Most efficient and economical method of securing reports by state and
federal authorities - use of uniform blanks.
Frequency of reports.
ABSTRACT
of the
PROCEEDINGS
of the
ONIFEINE
141211'
.
12
S
HELD IN TASHINGTON UNDFIt THE AUSTIICY'S OP THE
OVW,
S 3rARD
September 30 and October 1. 1918.
A -
Opening addresses.
1 - Address of Secretary Wilson
When we entered the war, we deemed it absolutely necessary
that we should make every possible provision for the purpose of maintaining the health of our boys whom we were taking into the camps. We
are doing the same with the boys that go over the seas. The saving of
man-power is the all-ii4ortant purpose at this time.
Now, Aihat is true with regard to the preservation of our boys
in the camps and in the trenches against disease and against ax' other
form of destruction or injury, is true with regard to the industrial
workers. The more we can conserve the lives and the health of our workers, the more men we have available for the trenches, The more the
lives of our people are destroyed in industry, the fewer we have for
military operations,
And so yore are dealing with a very important problem in
connection with the proper conduct of the war -- the question of
securing the latigest possible production from the available ,Lanpower and woman-power of the count '7, and securing it with the least
possible sacrifice of lite, Ximb, and
There has been an agitation for the elimination or lowering
of standards in orddr that we might, by the le,id*ng of those standards, increase productivity.
iethrarecall something more than a year ago, when the
cite coal miners and coal Operators were in conference for the purthe
pose og making a new wage Scale, that a suggestion was made to
the conferCaunctl of National Defense that we aught to impress upon of
yieldence the need in the crisis through which we were passing in
the an-.
established
been
had
Which
ing the eight-hour working day
hadpreviouswhich
day
-hour
nine
the
to
returning
racite fields, and
at if the anthracite coal
ly obtained there, the assuzption being that
more coal would be
that
miners went back to a nine -hour working day
produced.
Ip
At that time I suggested to the Douncil the advisability
of making an intensive investigation of the subject before we made
any recommendations. Our Bureau of Labor Statistics made an investigation with an interesting result. We found that the anthracite coal miners working eight hours per day in 1916-17 were producing approximately 2% more coal than they had produced in nine
hours in 1915,16.
- 2use in a mining inaistry men
It doos not follow that beca
with an eight-hour working day than
have been producing more coal
day that the same would be true in
they did in a nine-hour working
I simply cite this to show some 6f the
all other lines of industry.
ed with in connection with the questiaa
peoblems that we are confront
of standards. .....,
we shall do all in our
It is absolutely imperative that
least the ml.nthe standard with regard to at
power to maintain
be admitted into gainful occupations,
ipetteaa age at which Children may
lf9 the welfare of the commanity,
for the welfare of the child itse
for the future of our country.
on with women in
We have a special problem in connecti
inductrA that women are not
industry. There are aaly lines of
aL.e maey conditions of inphysically fitted to fill. Trehere
ical development of women,
dustz7 that affect not on1,7 the phys
conceive of no greater injury
but their own eelf-respeeet. :can
the introduction of our women
that can come to our country tbaa
are not p4sically fitted to perinto lines of industvy .uhat they
reduce their own self.respect.
form, or into lines of industry that
when compelled
, with which other countties,indu
The rapidit;
stries where
women into
to deal with the proolem, intruduced
We have .bad.
n.
know
w0.1
is
introduced,
ency
ould. net have ren
they
6ne sapieet; an. sviil tnere is a tend
more time o dea4 wltn )
ed.
educ
be
intc
not
where they should
on our part to introduce women
had the honor of represent,.
Some (iight or nine years ago I
Labor As its fraternal delegate to
ing the American Federation of
t over there
Congress. .During my visiwome
paritish Trade Union
n were then
that
stry
indu
of
s
kind
Was shocked to find the
e
at
that time
ther
n
I found wome
engaged in in Great Britain.
mine care
of
the
out
the coal
working on the pit-heads, dumping n there with their Wheelbarrows
wome
into the railroad ears. I saw
moulds, wheeling them into the kilns
taking bricks away from the
ed; and I saw those same women going
and piling them up to be burn
r the brick had been burned and
into t he exliremely hot kilns afte
them, taking the briok from the
ve
when the time had come to remo
s and piling it there.
kiln, wheeling it out into the yard
it will be
As Y have said , there may come a time When
hed ia
blis
esta
have
we
that
s
dard
necessary to reduce the stan
e standthos
A
WhiJ
r
unde
as
diic
order that we may preserve the cori
r which we may go on to work out
ards have been built 1:14. and unde
sacrifice of standard
our own destiny in our own way. But that
ty of those who; are only
should not be made upon the responsibili
- 3d,
in a position to see the local situation. whein standards are lowere
on
are
a
in
who
positi
those
it should be upon the responsibility of
of
.lerve the entire field: and then only after every other means
to ob,
supplying our armies has been exhausted.
War Lepor Policies B9ard.
2 - Addres, of Mt. Frafttlaluj Chairman of
No one who has
This is an extraordinarily vast country.
of adminisulties
not had the opportunity of comparing the diffic
g in Lonsittin
als
offici
tration in England, in time of war, where
within
nly
certal
am
don can get anybody from anywhere in the kinetd
get
quite
can
ions,
condit
a day's ride, even under congested traffic
ation,
feeling, the realiz
into his own intellectual perception the
istrative responsibility
adalin
have
the ?,motion of what it xeans to
ore the method which has
in the United States in time of war. Theref
e law so elective,
servic
ive
made the administration of the select
Mr. Hoover's work
of
on
strati
admini
the method which is making the
pursue in the
must
we
which
so effective, is peculiarly the method
zing energy
vitali
the
field of labor.- namely, that we must have
states throughs
variou
and intelligence of you een and women in the
out the country.
the defect of
I think if we were to summarize in a word
say - I
to
d
tempte
be
American labor administration, we would
of enforcelack
its
in
was
e
failur
its
that
cy,
think with accura
tia
their
isecen
Lip.k4cirle7A:
but
The laws themselves were meager,
sadmint
ive
etfoot
for
laws
the
in
ion
made
no
provis
was
that there
tration.
of the adThere cannot be, even eith the vast machinery
be
from the
must
It
gton.
ministration, direction here from Washin
the
hout
fields
throug
s
variou
field; and you are stationed in the
the
and
and
women,
men
you
men,
country. We must ask you gentle
y, to be the enforcing
various organizations throughout the countr
ore it is that we feel
theref
agencies for the federal departments;
duties here to council
field
your
we have the right to bring you from
let you see, if we
to
and
,
ulties
with us, to tell us of your diffic
organs.
ing
the
execut
are
you
which
can, the general plan of
Was
B - PROGRAM OF THE WAR LABOR POLICIES BOARD
The program of the Tar Labor PolicieS,Board according to which the government contracts require compliance with state laws and the state departments
are deputized to aid in enforcement was presented.
Major Rosenachn, -
Assigned to the office of the Judge Advocate General.
The policy adopted by the various department heads was that
all the labor standards which had been establidhed by law or custom
should be maintained as far as practicable; they should not be suspenaed except in the cases of' extraordinary emergency. By Ic extraor
dinary emergency" we do not mean siiply the emegency of the war. The
war, in and of itself, is not an extraordinary euergency.
There have
got to be other factors before any suspension can be allowed.
The War Labor Policies Board thought it edvisable that every
contract should certain a provision that tLe contractor in the performance of the cortract would comply with all of the State labor laws.
Accordingly, a clause with which we are especially concerned, was
adopted to be inserted in every contract. That clause is:
"All work requtred in carrying out this contract shall be performed in full complaince with the laws of the State, Territo
ry, or
District of eolumbia where such labor is performed; provide
d,
that
the contractor shall r.:t employ in the performance of this
contract
any min)r uno)r the age of 14 yea's, or permit any minor between
the
ages of 14 and 16 years to work more than 8 hours in
any
one
day,
more than 6 days in any one week, or before 6 A. M. ,
or after 7 P. M.
nor shall the contractor, directly or indirectly, evoloy
any person
under sentence of imprisonment at hard labor which may
have been
imposed by a court of any State, Territo-y, or munici
.oality having
criminal jurisdiction; provided, howelter, that
1.4.1e ?resiaent of the
United. States may, by executive order, modify
this p.:e.)vision with
respect to the employment of convict 1abo7 and
provide the terms and
conditions upon Which such labor may be e4ploye
d." These provisions
shall be of the essence of the contract.2
The Tar Department has issued an order
directing that every
contract should contain such a clause; the
Navy Department will order
it to-day; the Housing Aorporation has
included them in every contract,
and the Emergency Fleet Corporation will
also issue such an order.
In 7.fo-..-cing this p.covision it %Vela easo decided
that the
various State lator de:pq.rtmeLts were the bestag
encies
to
enforce
the State labor laws or behalf of the governmz.t.
Miss
Mary Van TUeeca l
..)i,
..ector of the Wou-11-,n in Zndastry Servico.
You are the auposte o.f this whole sit...ation, ard your
action
is to be az efge:
, tive astt,m.. Tau are deputized to enforce those pro-.
visions of the contract s and tho whole point As tile effect
iveness of
enforcement, Clearly it
:rour responsibilit,1 to see the plants working on contracts in each State
are living up to the anrnunoed policy and
dsire of the Federal departments; and you .2,-,!e acting in the
capacity
not cn],y of a state but of a federal agency.
2- The
uestion of the rl,gtt to deputize was raised.
OnlorAdft.
I wanted to ask if Miss Abbott would
consider it a gocd plan to name State far:terry inspectors
as federal
agents. Tbe letter designated me individually, but
we have factory
inspectors.
Miss Abbott, Research Consultant. War Labor Policies 7=Board
.
You can deputize them through that designation.
Madgr Rosensohn. Bureaus of which you are the heads are
deputized and
of course you can act through any representative.
3
The desire was exioressed by some states for lists of government contractors but tais was not considered practicable.
Utu_aaLAiner qf_Mpanesota. It seems ts me that it would be
a very
good idea if the 7ar Labor Policies Eoard would furnish the state
departments with a complete list of the manufacturers within that
state who have these contracts.
Miss Abbott. It is not easy to get lists of contractors and get them
out to you in time, and 1nasn-22.ch as the 6'2:ate people are engaged in
the inspection cf eve'y sing113 plant, it is very easy for you, upon
inquiry, to learn v.tether they are engaged in war wr:.k or not.. They
are not going to be heard to say that they are not engage-2. in war work.
There will be no difficulty there, became it makes a very great diffarence in getting the prioriv in labor and in fuel and in raw material.
- 6Isk._1)1.anlap_
Do r:ct be a.larmed that any contractor, even
_Iviissouri,
tin
w-.71 tell you he is no:, wing for
one
st
re
thov...gh
will
tell
;
the :
r.,..t
7',6 am work.Ing for the govertar.entt".
-;.-.),;•ern.nnt.
Ile
4 - The best mttixod of dealLIE niCa persistent vlolation l Whether -.:)y local
p7oseoution or y reporing to ths facleral conAzaoting departirRalt was
debated, Xt was gcneally
'coal proseottion was bettor in
the majority of cabes, but
..sibla for the heal of
i. woul.d. be por,
the. stthrbe labor deparymmtt.hrve recou7se to feJeral autb.oriv wlism
hi o j-adginerZ; .01e waa preferable.
5 - The 5-Pu,?_%9Pbi1_it...z,r_of state .1.rws in industries operating under degrees of
goverraleorat coittol was discusserl.
e,1:rmert own -d plant31
They ;Ire not_ svol.5.cable in
Mai.977j0,W4SOlane You have tow the Western Unlen Telegraph Cmpany taken
over by . the goreerrLent. The railroacis 1.2ve been taken over 'oy 'cLe government. Srioa those things have hampened.1 of sou-zse the sta.te laws are
no loLger al,plIca'ole, but he gc7=•rnmentai po-Lic5_es are app3.i.cab:.e, and
of course it is for the heads of those departments to determine that.
T he government policy makes them applicable on direct contracts. They are applicable on subcontracts and on plants whose products
are commandeered.
6:- Compliance with certain safety stanciare.s, it was reported, is virtually
suspet.d'ed owing to the impossibility of getting materials for the alterations required..
TvIr._13Jaar.t_o;f2Tew Jers.tz. Wii! have some very serious problems to congetting material to carry cut the orders of
sic'er in New jersey as
the departmont. -re order a fire esc.ta.pe on a tui:.dir.g. A contract
is given, and the contractor oannot get tbe material, 7.s there any
way that that situation r.!an ba hpe thzo-o.gh the Priorities Poa:7ci.?
.- 6,Pve two oases vire the oon.d.it4.o.v; are haza:d.rlo.s. j-Lst becore I
3eft
e instructions to have both b-if.id.in7:2, cloSed. urkt:.1 the fire
They wori.t be
eseaoes are erected.. 'I know what is goir..?to hspp
ab.ie to get the material to bui...t.d them. The factories tt:at.;“ro 4/17.
tag$t1.7 ii..ir.war work can get priority for irori.
Frayne of the Tar Industries Board.
:f the are ergaged in war industl'ios they stand some dhance.
Suppose you write the priority comission on it?
•
g
•
- 6-
Mk, Kearns" o,F_ Ohio. We are having serious trolible along that very
line in Okii, now, where we issue orders for seety devices for schoolhouses of all kinds and it means that they mast have sheet metal or
iron or steel to comply with the order and in any number of cases they
say to the department that they cannot get the material unless they have
a priarity order, and they cannot get a priority order unless they are
manufacturirlg goods for the government.
Mrs hAine. Forward the information to Washington and it might be
helpful in getting this material. I do not say thet it will, but an
ap9lication endors'ed 14 a 'state commitsion will be recognized much
mare reaaily,than the ()Ater 'oi‘• the contractor.. S.in each instance if
the comqpissiOn were to rite i letter of endorsement calling attention
to the necsissity pf getting a priority order, it would be very helpful.
4
,
.. ,
„
t
'
;;.'
C
Chilct Labor.
1 - Miss Lathrop, Chief of the Chjldrents Bureau, spoke of the
changes
in the federal_pregram caused by the decision of the Supreme Ceur.
Miss Lathrop. A little more than a year ag6 some of you came to help
us launch the enfercoment of the federal child labor law, and you insrirad us and helped vs a great deal then and all through the 273
days during which that law was in operation. There certainly could
hardly heve been found a more, inauspicious moment to have it declered unconstitutional than the 3d of June, just as we were getting
into the very think of this industrial activity. However,threugh the
Secretery, through the Tar Labor Policies Board, we were able to wrest
a little victory from that defeat, because the Tar Labor Policies
Board with its representation of the great production agencies of
the
government is able to put into the government contracts the stantards
of the federal chrt.lt labor law. The President, out of the benefice
nt
fund which comes forth on occasion, gave us $100,000 with which
to
make investigations so that we can enforce these contract clauses
until the happy moment when Congress may be able to secure another
law
which, presumably, will be more gentky regarded by the Supreme Court.
Various measures have been presented to Congress, end we have
every
reason to believe that a permanent measure will be passed during this
presant Congress.
There have been several measures Which we have undertaken
in following the policies of the Tar Labor Policies Board which
are
somewhat different from those of the past; at eny rate, they are
based upon a different power. We would have been almost helpless
when the law was declared unconstttutional did the Bureau not exist
under a law which directs the Bureau to investigate and report on
all matters affecting the welfare of children. We therefore had absolute power as investigators to go into factories and to tring in
reports, although, of course, we have no law to enferce and. no standards on which we could insist. But we did at once a.vo a.; much as
could of the Child Labor Division with the very limited resources we
which we had at the time.
- 8
Some of you may be interested to know that agents hays
working very herd on gathering the material into proper
since be
shape for a report Which is nearing publication.
Labor
Miss Lathrop announced that Miss Abbott, Director of the Child
Boara
ies
Polic
War
Labor
the
Division of the Bureau, is assigned to
is being tarried by
temporarily, end that her work in the Bureau
Nise Mathews, Assistant Director.
2 - The exnerience of the Buregi.L_wid state demattmentv in _enforqing tett
ially the value of joint
federal Child labo* law was discussed, espec
41 inspDctions made by
inspections and of the reports concerning feder
the Bureau to the states.
theory that any plan
Mis§,AbOott. Ag you 4now, we went on the
standards was to be by
al
feder
of enforcement or administration of
the fedaral
some sort of joint arrangement between the state and
by the
taken
was
government; and according to the vote that
Secretary of
the
of
delegatet who assembled last July at the call
Secretary
the
by
ed
Labor, all of you were designated or commission
al act.
feder
for the purpose of aiding in the enforcement of the
very
rned, we have been
ylyania is conce
has been some
MLEZIAeT..• As far as Penns
There
pian.
ction
inspe
mutuai
muchsatisfied, with the
and we had some diffdifference between the federal law and our own,
, but I think you
iculty at the start in adjusting that difference
the Supreme Court
when
right
going
will agree taat we were just about
put the brakes on.
than the federal standgisa.Alitalt. The Pennsylvania law was lower
children between 14 and
for
ard in that it permitted a nine-hour day
which we are going
sions
provi
16. It is also lower than contract
labor law did take
child
al
feder
to be called von to enforce. The
and the contract
tion,
situa
ia
a very definite change in the Pennsylvan
situation. We
ia
ylvan
the
in
Penns
e
provision makes a definite chang
of Mk. Palmer's
some
with
s
ction
inspe
went in there and made some joint
the
then
and
a
time,
for
her
toget
inspectors and began the work
work, and
the
111#
h
to
finis
tori,
our
insicn
left
Pefinsylvenia inspectors touch with them. Men we turnea over to tnem
WW kept in pretty close
findings were most of them turned
a Summery of the findings. Those
number of suits
in after the law was declared unconstitutional, and a
had been filed.
•••
- 9In another instance, in Ohio, for example, we followed
the policy of writing the employer a letter setting forth the
findings. Most of the violations were of the Ohio law instead of the
Federal, because the Ohio standards were very much higher. We sent
at the same time a copy of these findings to the state inspector
calling attention to the fact that this duplicate was being sent to the
employ-sr, and that he was being notified at the same time
Mr Kearns of Ohio. The plan of feferring violations from the
Federal Bureau to the labor commissioner seems to be very satiefactory. At any rate,it is working out that may in Ohio. That
we are doing now is to take those reports and turn them over to our
deputiee in the various districts, to make their investigations,
Of course, if we find the laws are still being violated prosecutions will be brought. We started prosecution in one case just
before I left home on or of the reports sent out by Your department, where we found the law still being violated. I thinks
however, that wherever, it is possible to do it,it will be muCh
more satisfactory if the federal and state inspectors can make
the inspections together where flagrant violations of the law are
found and prosecutions are necessary. Of course, we can not make
those prosecutions until we get the dilidence ourselves.
• Allen of Tennessee. The suggestions made with regard to mutually
had some experreporting inspections meet with my full endorsement.
ience in receiving and acting on reports from the federal department
imediately following the time When the federal child labor law was in
terce l and I found, great oenefit resulting to us in Tennessee from that
system. we took each individual rep)rt that came to us, whether it was
good or bed, and got some results from it.. We took the bad cases and
had our inspeoters go to the industries where the federal inspector had
found the law violated, or pessibla violated, and he traced these matters
down until we corrected them in one or two cases by prosecution and in .
and following our policy, in those
a majority of the cases without it
ceses where the report showed conditions were good, no violations and
no reason for complaint, we immedietely told the industry of the facts
and made aftiend of the managers of those iniusticies. .1 think the
proper idea is that we Should have soiee system adopted that would be
uniform throughout the country, some blank maybe that could be used in
all cases where the federal inspector would report conditions to the state
department, and, if desired, the state inspectors could report conditions
to the federal department, and then have a follow-up system by Which
we could trace those until we got complete and st.tisfactory results from •
them.
mr....zlivistanAL NorthLJIvall. In reference to the cases of violations
found in which our state law has supervision, I found that the,re were
no names. I was wondering if Miss Abbott could furnish us with the
names of the children Who are below age. If that could be done, we
will get right after those cases and have them rounded up.
- 10 Miss Abbott. We sent out gen
llstructions at the time that tifb.40w
was found unconstitutional. We have no request for names from you, but
we will be very glad to have it,
••••• MC,
.•••••••
Mr. Fe ol_flEzkill.I want to suggest that if we had a uniform method
of repertinb all violations found h7 the federal inspectors to the state
departments, and then if we had a printed form on which to make returns
ox report on these, / think we would get somewhere.
Me. $7,14po
.mf Rhop Island. We have reperts from your department. We
appreciate the information received, but we would like to have it nearer
to the time of the investigation. We did not get it until two or three
months after the inspctions were made. I objected to the fact that as
I thought this report was going to be printed, I did not like to heve a
secret investigation and then have it reported to the public before we
got it.
Miss Lathrop.
Quite right.
Mr* Huason. It is a long way to send reports on here to Washington to
have them compiled, and then send them back to us. If the inspector
could give his information on the spot, I think we could cooperate with
him.
Miss Lathraa,
We certainly can speed up.
Miss Abbott. The only way we can assume responsibility for What
is being done is to see whether the evidence that we have collected
is adeqqate before we turn it over to you. So we he insisted
that the reports should come into Washington first, before they
were passed on to you. while that is slightly slower, in the
long run it will be more satisfactory to you, because you will
then know that you are dealing with the final responsibility in
connection with tile n:,ing and that you
not be dealing with
something that we )eve not recognized as a fact. We will have,
Qf covrse, to mblish the fina retorts of the.work of the
Division, but
ot the inepectors Save peen instructec. that no
local publicity was to be given to the findings.
Mr. Gardiner of Minnelotlt. I think it would be a good idea if
the Federal Child Labor FUreau would get samples of every one
of these blanks that are used in the varuous states where we
have child labor
anc'. formulate one of the easiest working
blanks we can possibly gat hold of. Then when we are making
reports, they should be seat to tbat states to show the investigations that have been made and the results accomplished
in adjoining states.
- 113 - A plan was discussed for reports on viola
tions to be made qy the states
to the Children's Bureau, as a means of enforcing
the contract provision in regard to child labor.
Miss Abbott. The Government does not believe that
contract provisions
will be self-operating. You are being commissioned by
the War Departmnt and by the Navy Department and by the other
departments of the
Government to report to them violations of the contracts,
and then
those violationa will be taken up with the contractor
s: so that you are,
so to speak, the enforcing officer. We shall be very
glad to have
those reports core into us because it is a polic
y to handle them uniMmly with the War Department and the Navy De!ar
tment and the Shipping Board.
I am sure that you will be glad to know that the movem
ent
for the insertion of the contract clause did not come
fnom the child
labor division but from the War Department to the War Labor
Policies
Donal with the 07roval of the production departments who were
concerned with getting out production because they did not
want this
impression to go abroad that we wanted little children in
the factories
working to win the war.
Miss Lathrop. Is it not the sense of the meeting
that, if the system
of reporting blanks should be agreed upon and the
blanks sent out at
once by the Government, it would b - agreeable to the
state inspectors
to send in taeir reports to the Division of such infra
ctions as occur?
If that is regardedas a sensible and satisfactory
plan, the Child
Labor Division will at once proceed to prepare such blank
s for reports.
Miss Abbott. We d# not find that it is a matter
that can always
be put on a short blank. We have got to have for
the Department
proof of the fact that the child is under 14 and a
proof that he
is working over hours. You all know that those
responsible in the
War Department are not going to be too patient
in handling reports
that are not verifed and which do not consider
the evidence on which
the report is basect, and in order to get unifo
rm and quick and
responsible action from those very busy
departments we have got
to have evidence go in absolutely aidt-tight
as to the facts that
are submitted. I am very sure that all of
you will be very gild
to do that and realize that it is necessary.
We do not want them to go back and
verify these facts.
We want them to be able to deal with
a contract absolutely on the
basis of the information that is there,
just as the Attorney General
in the Department of Justice startsacti
on on the information that
they have thare. So we will have to ask
for something more than
a very short blank in that connection.
- 12 4 - Various instancel. of yioll,tIo_n_of child labor laws, pe to_=ar time
condit4ons wore brought up in a:'.fl:erent stats.
MiGS Brepette oLSee:le.
. mu tle3.ed to prosecute the restern Union
last week, an4 the coexty attopley refused to prosecute our case,
orirol, That means that the ba'rs
saying it Nae,.:ander gcverr.mer
-abor in the messenger service,
are down in that state for
and theyare e.alling them thfluir„ a:1LA fast ani,weare helpless and
can do nothing . 'Ae'Distrie,t Attorney refased to take ally action.
He said we wceld have to ta]ee ',,he matter entileely up with the Federal authorities. I wired the Postmaster-General promptly and wrote
him repeatedly, but we have not had any reply.
Miss Lathrop,
I think it could be reported to the War Labor Policies Board,
Miss Ob9tt, Te want reports of thst sort to come in.
in that way that the states can be of assistance/
It is exactly
Mr. rox of metalpl. me are having practically the same experience
right now, me hsve found over two hundred violations, and the
magistrate ounched them all aLd fined them $10 and. costs, which
they were w4.11ing to pay every day for working the Children.
3 came to Washington to shake hands
/4/[4 1.otiu,,ee"e'ts.
Mr, Mulru4z,o 117r.
A .
•
of
the
it
billiant idea of getting after the
with someone
contract. Send along your reports 4ud we will do the best we can
with them. We had one delivered to us. Wa had already started
prosecution on one man in the couoty, and we prosecuted quite a
lot afterwards, and we got themes fap as the court, and the court
said --I wonder if that is a uniform experience -- "These are war
times. I do not believe it hurts these children."' He asked one
of the boys if be felt injw-ed by what he did, and then he sail,
W We well find them guilty hut file the cases with no determination.
.11.0 W., .WAaall, -1=r
,
11.r
Mr Mulready also stated that permits to suspend the
Massachueetts child labor law had never been granted, though fiftyone applicatio..'le 4ad been made, *We stick to the policy that we
would not ulec'er arly circulLetances. grant the right for Children to
work over tif.e."
at
Yte_12110 !
c.4.:„Tnneelee. T want to put before you the case of
is said to be a $60,000,000 corporation, a government war industry,
being ereotea by a prvate corporation. This corporation has let a
contract foe tIle erection of the industrial city to another corporation, WPGA respect to he corporation that is building the plant
the state lays and feee:al lava,
1 am confident, kre tining observed,
-13 -
but in the case of the corporation that is building the industrial
city the laws are being disregarded. There are from one hundred to
two hundred and fifty children employed there now, illegally. I am
stating facts. Women are employed illegal hours and in other instances
the Laws of he State of Tennessee are being disregarded.
Miss Abbott. Mere is a ristaken view throughout the country that
the department he7..e in Washington were relaminG on that scam. What
we are able to do for you is to say quite definitely that the
Secretary of War and the Secretary of the Navy have indicated that
their policy is against that sort of thing.
5 -
The importance of reports on the issuinkof working certificates
by the states to the federal government was exp;ained by Miss Matthews
of the Children's Bureau, The desirability of uniform reports and
some of the difficultesvere considered. It was decided to appoint
a committee to suggest methods of reporting, and Miss Lathrop appointu.
ed Mr. Gardiner of Minnesota, Mk. Gernon of New "fork, Mr, McLauga0.
of California, Miss Matthews of the Children's Bureau, Mr. Haderecht
of Wisconsin, Mrs. Semple of Pennsylvania.
•
•
-
The functions of tbe investigation and insnecticn serv_ice of the
DeparGm nt of Labor, wers dellczibed by 111.,:, Et'aelbert Stewart,
Chief of the Se7:vice.
Ethelbert Stewart. The War tabor 4ftinistration bill provided
certain services 1.r. the Dcpartmant of Labor. 2.mo:ag them was the
Ineestigation ancl Yzspeot;on Service,
was appo;ntea July 8th,
ao
ha,:e not been in existence very long. I think the states have
all received a letter anneuacing the fact that it was organized and
ready to form cooperativemvageaents.
Thu functions of the Investigation ard Tnspection Service)
outlined by the Secretary of Labor, are as follcws: °a force of
investigatora will also be needed for the vari'ms other services here
contemplate. In 7iew of the fact that the se-rvi.,-,e of an inspector
examiner ard investi.gator may 'also be conbi.Jed in one man, especially
at he beginill'Anh; of the work, and ale° that the hane.ing of a field
force which travels frcm place to place is a large task in itself,
I believe the greatest econoav and efficAency cL;r1 be obtained by comm
binin these fie:id ferces wrier their eecrotaxy in cne inspector in
,estJ.gation and Incharge and in a snec:.al se.rvioe to he
?lee Yn.
spection Ser7ice. lt wi11 be 45r purpose to require all new cervices
Sn the Departme4lt to use this irvestigabion ant Ympection Service
so far as possible in field work. For 0A.5 parpose the inspector in
charge of the service will provide, on consultatlon with other
branches of the government, methods of inspection, investigation and
examination, including blank forms, and so forth, and will transmit
such report to the various branches to which they belong.
-
Alon6 that line I w;o,,e to the various states as follows -that is the thing that intarelts us most dir,ectly:
While this service is equipped with a force Of factory inspectors as well as investigators who work directly from the central
office in Tashtneon, it is verertt.sloss the plarpose of the director
of the Investigation and Inspection fertice to cooperate with and
use all of its agercies th4t now exist in the varqous states. /hereever a state buteall of labor statistics, industr!el commission, or
other stat-otory state dirgenf.LatioLs can be of s-rvice in makirg local
investigations their cooperation is earnestly solicited. wh:rever
state factory inspection officia1s are in a position to assist or are
in need of 4ssistance in enforcing state factory 'taws on government contracts, a close cooperation is offered and desired."
I have reciived lettersfrom a number of states. Practically
all siirly offeree. a complete and, absol-ite coopesoation, witnout
raising any question. There are two that raised questions, and I
want to answer them. Cne is from Pennsylvania, whioh very properly
raises a question Rsto Whether there is going to be any disturbance
ofthe organization of the Industrial Commission or the Department of
Labor and Industry in Pennsylvania. That is precisely What we do
not w-nt to do. Therever you are organized to get information that
I want; want y,,u to ot it. nerever you pke eq111T)ed so taat 7ou can do
that without a drain unon your rerenoes, I wa:-A Fou to gi7e me the
facts snu. pay the till. That will do two things
It will enable ma to use my force in states where they are
not equipped to do it, and use my fundi for states where thay are
simply act able to do sow vork of that soot.
Thnt brings up the serone. v.estioa. One of the other states
raised a question as to the ful..c..i.s; that ttey are willing to do everything they can, but they h-ve no money even to pay railroad fare, and
S3 on,
Now I have; ?na ,kier.3 a state s willing to cooperate and
he4 and has the equipment to si the. inforLation, I can see that you
lose nothing by it; proved. other states that are equipped to get
it without any serious detriment to themselves do not want 611. their
bills paid too.
A function of thls 3n.vice is. simply to secure facts upon
every concelvale sueot.
A firm,for instance, is falling down on its delivery of war
material. There are all sorts of reasons, but usually, if they get a
chance, they say 'Labor conditions." we have all sorts ofinves-
15
tigations. I have just teen told
this afternoon about a concern
that really employs about 3,000 peop
le, and yet it is hoarding labor
-- eight and ten thousand people on
its payro;1 absolutely told
to restrict output, to"lay dcwn" on
the job, because it hea a ten
er twelve per cent contract.
When you get these facts, we are
able to put them into the
hands of those who presumably have
the power and willingness tO
make the correction.
Mr. Frayne of the War Industries
Board: There have been many demands
for the letting down of importan
t labor laws applying to the employment of children; laws regulati
ng the employment of women at night
time; laws, where they exist,in
regard to the one day rest in seven.
In some states the Commissions have
been asked to set aside laws
upon the mere statement of a manufacturer
thet he had a war contract,
or because of the installistion of two
or three extra machines, he
waAted to irreldiately set asiie the state law.
Upon investigation, we found in every instance
, even after
of the Commiseon were unanimous in agreeing
to grant thie
special privilege, that there was no necessit
y for it.
GOLP
We feel that tbe time is not ripe to set asid
e these very
imrertant laws. Until the time does come
, we should safeguard these
laws. iUra*/ taken so many years to plav
e upon the statute books
of the various states as well as the
federal government and prevent those who, under the pretense of patr
iotism, because they have
a contract with the Government, use it
as an excuse to set them aside
In order that they may make bigger profits
than some of them are
making. They say "Save the world for demo
cracy." We are all in
favor of that. I say "Save the women and
children for the world."
I do not want to attempt to tell the stat
es how to operate
their laws, but I do want to tell you
that the War industrial
of which I am a member, has certain
powers that willb's very useful
to the various states. Through the
Priorities Divieion of the War
Industries Board it is possible to prevent
the raw material going
to a plant, if there is a violatio
n of the standa:cks providing
those
standands have been accepted as a government
policy. If it is a cannely having a government contract
, and it has not complied with
the
requirements, the raw material may be
stopped, or the finished product need not be shipped, if there
is a general understanding as a
result of this conference.
- 16 voice the sentiment of labor and I voice the sentiment of all
of you men and women who have Ooined with te fn this great work of protecting women and children of the country, that thorie ?.awo .must remain,
that when the time comes for a special privilege to be gi-4en as an absolute necessity to meet a war emergency or a serious war si:.:uation, it
will be done by consent and by arrangement aach as you viace here on cooperation with the government.
Miss Barnum of the Investigation and Inspection Service.
I was tremendously interested the other night when we were
having a discussion as to the employment of wmen on night work to hear
from Mt. Ftayne, who is the labor representative on the War Industries
Board, that What I had almost been made to believe was an emergency
already existing, did not exist at all. The Tiv Industries Board is
constantly meeting Whatare c ailed emergencies by mechanical devices
and by transfers of contracts to other localities Where things may be
manufactured, taking Over a factory and pressing its machinery into service,
and so ferth, before sbtting aside the night law for women.
Mk. FrAyne. Since the formation of the Department of which Mt, Stewart
is the chief, I have turned over probably a hundred or mare cases coming
to me in the War Industries Board. I have had replies on all those they
had time to investigate. Reports from that department proved very clearly
to me that it is performing a very useful wor4. They have been able
to obtain information setting forth just what the conditions are and
suggest how they can be remedied and incidenta14, review mazy of the
reasons for the requests f or a special privilege in having the law
changed to suit their particular convenience.
-17-
E - Women in Industv,
1,
The organization of the federal Woman in Industry Service
was described. by Mi3S Mary Van Klceck, Chief of the Service.
Miss Van Kleeck. The Woman in industry Service has only a mall
staff. It has a m.aller staff thar it will have ?abcr, because it
is just in its beginaings. It iz designatec:. at tLe adviser to the
Secretary cf Labo: oa all problems affecting WGWSU, and the director
of the Woran in Inc"uetry Service represents women in industry on
the War Labor PoliL;ies Board.
There are in several other federal departments activities
relating to women in industry. The Ordnance Department o curiously
enough, was the first to organize a woman's branch, last January. It
is reprevented in the ten district offices of the Ordnance Department,
and is carrying forward what might be called industrial counselling
in matters affekAirg women, in the plants working on contracts for
the Ordnance Department. They are not making investigations as such,
they are not enforcing laws; they are endeavoring to devise plans with
reference to problems affecving women, and, to that end, are maintaining as close connection ae possible with state and local agencies and
with the other divisions of the government.
The Navy has stted that it would prefer to have its problems
handed by the Woman in Industry Service, and for that purpose plan to
designate a woman inspector and detail her to work with the Woman in
Industry Service.
The Public Health Service is charged ty executive order
recently with the control of activities in the federal departments
relating to health, with the exception of such activities as those in
the aurgeon General's office and the studies of occupational diseases
which have been carried on for some time by the Zureau of Labor
Statistics of the Department of Labor. So that the Public Health
Service is necessarily taking up health in industry, and therefore
touches women in industry,
The Federal Board for Vocational Education is charged with
certain nesponsibilities along those lines, and is therefore alvo
touditing the problem.
In order to tring together these various groups the Woman in
Industry Service has organized a zCounsil on Woman in Industry in which
there is a representative of every division of the repartment
of Labcr
and a repressntative of these other federal groups which have a relation
to women in industry.
- 18 relations between the state
want to establish working
I should like
f.v.e fedcza.1 goverment and,
department or labor
be regarded
to
Oervice wishrJs
to say that the 71w.l.
we are here to
:so.1-.6....t.i.t7e, to to s•pealc..
as your Wasbirgtc:n. repy.,
g women.
Do1;f1.e.s arid standard.s affectin
give you information a,.!;r0.1(.;
ange from
exch
of
possible as a medium
e.„7:V "
We are here to serve
aro
one depart-mei:A f .abor tc
2-
of Ftae Lobcr De-oartment$
-0's
An account of the T
et.tablIshed them
have
sate vi.c.:_ch
was given ty the fc
NCIW
and.
-invivar..ia
Minnesota, Wisconsin, 1).11
rtment as
When I first entered the depa
a_t_
ecot
Minn
of
iner
Gard
Mr.
I left the
we had no woman's division.
a factory inspector in l04
stant to
assi
as
it
tc
s and. returned.
department for about four year
been
had
sion
divi
returned, a worcanIs
the Commissioner, and when I
I had
er.
ath
hip of the late Mrs. Stakwe
organized under tnc ).eaders
nized
orga
was
it
s division fro the t.;_nae
not fo3lowed the w:.s..rk of th.j.
I
es.
viti
artmeni.,. and, ergag.d. in its acti
until I got back to the de:p
been
had
I
for a vvornan's olvision. When
cDuld not see the ne3essity
two years I changed Dv'
, e.1%)Dment of th3 work for
able to watch the d.e.-,,
issioner ts
things that they take from the Comm
mind. There a:,:e s
ng in
undors;.anc: wily any state can get alo
shoulders. Todby I cannot
a
out
stry
with
indu
in
n
wome
- of
fie.;4
the field of labor olf in the
women's division.
on
funct.L.on.s of the Industrial Commissi
Mr. Hambrecht of Wiocon3in. The
of
on
rati
nist
the
admi
on,
ard. sanitati
might be classifie, nto sfety
mediation and arn and chiid
woma
st
workmen's compensation law
ip.
cesh
ng to apprenti
bitration, and duties pertaini
as rigid relaws existing so far
There are very few state
to
the Indusing
genera). statntes leav
gulations are concerned. only
of the
ion
out of the detailed applic?t
trial Commission the workinc
and..
out
ce, cnly a year ago we woPked.
general statutes. For ins.t.s.n
d,
erne
o:ls, so far as the stte is conc
put in the rules and regulatl
on
put
factories for women. That was
prohibition of night work in
mothl after the war was declared and
the statute book foal' or five
Wiswas creeping ir::c the industries of
at a time 1when nig.t).t work
now
opposition, but not a great deal, and
consin. It met with some
it is an established fact.
d in putting on the
I think that if Wisconsin has succeede
welfare of women and children it has
statute books any laws for the
of
Woman and Child Labor and because
been because of the Division of
the
of
s
head
on has in the executive
the confidence that the Commissi
ing us work out these problems.
help
several departments that are
Mr. Palmer of Pernsvlvanie. n.191 our Pepartment. of Labor and 7hdustry was developed I
- L 'Pennsylvania, anda.(,: tLat tins the Act r:y71vided for rerresentation r,
.)r wowan on th() ii4dustrIal board. Also
in the Divisi.on of hygiene a wr)wan member was provided. As we developed ollr aepartment and drew. we developed our womanls . dt7isioK.
It was in 3.9L4,
thi:lk, that we put a specJal insrperItthr at t'o.6 Y'eal
iasperto.7s equnl pay with the me7., .711r2
of it. We haVe 'given cur
today we have a $2,C00,
$1,500
We fee:). s Wnneota .
ot'r6r states shar.ld
11s
have it. We belie.re
alI will #avs it, benzasc tb3 womE,1
their own problams and taxiiion without reprention:'is still ')njrst,
Mr. Lynch _cf.ray)aoe.c.Pecently thrcugh the cooperL..tic.n of a g:oup
of worzen ¶nho he plvvs 113en prominent in New Ylk City so f,x as the
welfare of --cmen in indo,tr7 is coLc73rred, wE. have been enabled to establish a wo:ran's tur:eau, and for tle presert that bureau is It0.7% financed oy these wmen and. their sympahizers,
o enabled us to establish
it.
it is working out its own destny for the tithe being, and will
uridOubted)y be s most valv.able aid tl the Imfust:71.si. Commission of the
State of New York. 7/6 hope that in he next b,,ldget for the dep7Irtment
thft:i State will finance that bureau on the same oasis that it does all
of the Other bureaus .
Experience showing that women had beon used on their staffs
vith excellent results was cited by Ohio, California, Indiana and Massachusetts.
3-
Night Work. The most important discussion was on a plan presented
by Miss Van Kleeck, as ur.dor cins:ixieration for regulating night
work
for women throughout the col7rAtry. •Onay eight states have laws or
regulatinns which rnecluocally forodntt orl: for women; Massathusetts, New York, Pennsylvania, Delavr)re, ILcianaD Tisconsin, Nebraska
and Oregon.
Miss Van Kleeck. Of all the prc'tlems we have met., the question of
night work is the most serict,s and the mDst presing. I want to
present
the various phases of it as we have cncoun.6erA thex, to
lay befohe you
the plan which is under consieratioii in WA„Thin3tcn,
and to have from
you your op:!.nion of. the wl-,11e priceedinp, and.
eally evidence which
you will brThg to us trnai the statee oa the wh!,- le problem
of night work.
I was
Juli. A great
to the woman's
tunity to deal
cOnneoted with the 0.•'Lloai:co Deartment from January to
usw relusets fcr ememption from state labor laws come
Bi-anch- of the Ordna41c.e Del;:a';ment, and we had an opporwith every one of them in detail and to watch
changing
- 20 ...
conditions. We went on the assumption that no request for permission to employ women at night would go uninvestigated on the
ground that the state labor law did not permit it, because we
wanted to be in a position to state the facts; and so in a number
of instances we told the employer that the state would have no
power to grant exemmtions, that the federal government would not
grant exemptions for night work, but we would go over the details
of his problem and see what other way there might be out of it,
in order to pmevent night work.
In a very large majority of cases it was perfectly clear
that night work was the last thing that the plant needed; there
were very many problems of management and of industrial relations
for which the happy solution seemed to the employer to be to put
women on a night shift. Sometimes it was a problem of too long
hours, interfering with labor supply. Sometimes it wss a general
problem of employment.
But as more and more men were drafted into the military
service,the cases Which came to us began to show much more serious
aspects. They began to show such a situation as this: A labor shortage of 5,000 in a plant working on an absolutely essential product
U pon which the winning of the war could clearly be shown to depiAd;
housing facilities in process of construction which would house
2,000 --- leaving a shortage of 3,000, at best; added to that an entirely new program of production, by which orders should be completed from three to six months in advance of the original date set
for completion. And when you have a plant behind in its original
contract, and then' they receive instructions that those orders must
not only be up to date, but that they must be three to six months
In advance, you see the production problem.
In that town it was held that there were women in the families
of workmen already there, Who, without any additional housing, would
be available for employment.
Now, you all know that in industrial plants which have not
hitherto employed women in mar y of the munitions industries, it is
not possible to put woman on a solid day shift, because there are many
occupations that women cannot complete, and the procsss of replacement
of men by women goes forward in a partial sort of way, introducing
women here and there, where they could take men's places. Then,
when you add to that a practice which is followed in many plants
and certainly n desirable practice --- namely, rotation of shifts, you
have an adiitional complication with reference to the employment of
women, that is, that if the shifts rotate the employer is quite right
in saying "How are we going to meet the problem of introducing women
without night work if we are to have rotation of shifts?'
0
•
-21Recent studies by the Public Health Service, not
yet in
print, demonstrate beyond doubt that night shifts
are less productive
than day shifts; that, moreover, long hours at night
are utterly
wasteful. The charts, for instance, showing production
hour for hour
over a 12 hour period, indicate that those last two hour
s amount,
I might say, to nothing. If / recall, the producti
on figures for
the first hour of the night showed something over 10,0
00 of a given
article, and in the last hour it is about 200, in comp
arison with
the 10,000.
Two things have been perfectly clearly demonstrated. Nigh
t
shifts are not good for men and women. The vitality is
low in the
morning hours. It has been shown, for example, with refs
rence to en
employee five years on night shifts, with time, 7eresumieb
ly, to adapt
himself to night shifts,with time presumably, for the
physiological
changes, if we may put it that way, which would melee that
man a night
worker instead of a day worker to take place --- it was perf
ectly
clearly hown that there was lower vitality always in the
morning hours
between two and three or four as compared with the
day; that men are
not naturally nocturnal workers.
Now, ada to that the special effects on women. Wome
n have
their work to do at hams. It is the night worker usua
lly who is
the most hard pressed economically. They
are living in crowded quarters.
The difficulty of getting sleep by day
is very great, and the consequence is that night work stands indi
cted from the point of view
of production and the point of view
of health of the workers. It mast
be our purpose to restrict and4radually
to get rid of night work.
,
What is our present situation with referenc
e to it? We have
just eight states which have an unequivo
cal prohibition of night work
for women. We have two states, Wisc
onsin and Massachusetts, whic
h
can grant exemptions from the night work law.
So we have six states
which cannot grant exemptions under the stat
e law prohibiting night
work.
The production progress is in a very seri
ous position. we
have enormously increA.ed our army appropri
ations. We have withdrawn men from industry and we are goin to
g
withdraw them at a much
more rapid rate. We have also greetly
increas d the need for
munitions.
We have been depending fo a very large e xten
t upon English aniFi
lench
factories for some of our most liportant
munitions. We have got
war problem immediately before us,
a
and we all recognize that
production must be now if we are to hold
the gains that have
already come
to the success of the Allies.
That has resulted in two vary clea
r things: First of all,
,night work is on the increase in thos
e states which do
not prohibit
night work, and night work is going
on in those states
without any
regulation b: stete labor laws or
federal control, and with
out any
supervision to determine whether in
a given case the nigh
t work is
essential or net.
A
- 22 In those states Which have night work laws we are encountering,- and our experience is very thoroughly corroborated by
the statements of the enforcing officials,- evidence of disregard
of the present night work laws; and, more serious, because that can
be met by presecution, we are encountering evidence that there will
be a concerted effort to repeal these night work laws at the coming
session of the legislature, unless we arrive at some constructive plan.
or before
6 A. M.
Briefly, the plan which is under consideration in Washington,
but which is not yet finally decided upon or finally announced, is
this: That the federal government control night work in all states
in cooperatioa with the statedepartment of lattor or state industrial
commission, that hereafter no night work will be .permitted. No errployment of women after 10 P. M.* in a plant working on government con.
tract or a subcontract for the federal government would be permitted
under this plan, except by an emergency certificate granted by the
Secretary of War or theSecretary of the Navy, transmitted through the
State Industrial Commission or the State Department of Labor after
approval by the Secretary of Labor Who has designated the Wo4at in
Industry Serviceas his immediate representative to deal with those
cases if that plan goes through.
That would mean this:- that if a plant wished to employ
women after 1)P. M. or before 6 A. M. , it would make application
to the office, of the Secretary of War, if it is working on a contract for the Tar Department. There would be a two-fold investigatiae
by the War Department and theDepertment of Labor. First of all, the
necessity for production would be clearly determined and the oossibility of meeting the production of that article by a different
method of distribution of the contract in cooperation with the War
Indust*ies Board or by some other method of release of men from nonessential industries in the particular community, by the employment
of men on night shifts, or, from the point of view of working conditions, the possibility of meeting that situation by two day shifts
of women or by different methods of employment, among them the formation of a night shift of men. The same preliminary investigation would
determine the conditions Which vould be required before any,sudh permit were issued.
No plant would be allowed to employ women more than eight
hours by day or night. Every plant would be required t o give an
intermission of three-quarters of an hotir for the night ltndh period
and to see to it that it was possible to secure a Wholesome hot meat
at night. Ten minute rest periods would be raquired in the working
periods. It would be necessary that transportation should be provided which would be safe and convenient for the women. It would
be necessery that there should be adequate supervision of the night
shifts. In addition, there would be added certain requirements which
would grow out of the situation in a particular plant.
- 23 (a) The Massachusetts -clan for gran
ting temnorary exemptions
a§ a war meaure.
• ilomr.ssion legally emnowered to take
such
4etion, wa ttr.b. Ni
7‘711.;.;eaciy.
The federal 0.441 brenvit out mueh
eomment, in general favoring it.
Mr. 17?-6pmJe. _of wiLronsin,
're have a national program and we also
have a staL.E.: 7e.:.og,are‘ r.:he st,te labo
r laws suet give way at any
time ulOer wise and jacklui FA%
iee from the federel Erovernment when
the cle cter of m:''J ne :es eity
demanas f‘t. We are going to do everything tl.:at if., in oi.z:
and I know that that is true of every stat
e
here, to 1-,ep wio this
ldvt we must first know tb.tt it is a mi.l
itar
y
necesciL,y, A c- on!,
my ?:a.re contraced for more t!..,,,an he augh
t
to. If t'.1,;i have a ieelii
,L, the state that all they have to do is
tn sho4 te.Rt they have a 't%g
(..oltract on hand and tha-L, it is neeessary
to abuee the state 3aber Twve to
put it over, it may be a differ
th3nG
c rIvir!ce the :::ndnetrj al Commission
of wisconsin thaz it is
tr-,x, but it is for the fe0er:.1
government to say, it seems to me o
as to whether er not that
pariAcular factory with its produot ought to
be
lwcj, to encroach upon
the state labor laws in order to put out
its product.
Mfqr;
Let us emphasize that by saying it is the Secretar
y
of War w-in, rul3t declare
an ewergency in the "Tax Department, and rot
a catalr or a lieutena
nt who represents the war Department in the
fiela.
7:Atarr
.
ls of1 think that
now the new draft may draw men more
rapieJvfron
and we are going to be besieged with requests
for exnirtkons f,.om
ril tne vrieus lines, and I think the only
sole.tiln for it ie the
one suggested here, that the fode:al gove
rnment tavade;h the Secretar
y oil' War should issue these permits, but only
after peoc;er invest!g
ation has been made through the cooperation
of
the state department.
MieLV1n T{leeck. How woul
d the prohibition of night work exce
pt
under eel tificete affect Ohio
?
rEwns.
hibitio- of
very materially, because under our law
there is no pronight work except for women under 18.
Miss yftn Kleeck.
extent?
I presume you have night work going on
to some
Mr. 7earnes. Considerable.
Miss Vgn
rrom the point of view of Ohio woul
d it be a gain
in Tabor legielation or the reve
rse to have established the
federal
control in which the Industrial
Commission would share?
_ 24 Mr. Kearns. It would be a gain in labor legislation i a way, because we have no laws prohibiting it at this time. If course we
would like very much -- or my personal opinion is tIttat Ohio would
like very much -- to prohibit night work; but whether or not
would be possible to do it at this particular time 0 another question.
Miss Van Kleeck, But if the federal government sa* that it could oe
Of assistance to you in efforts later to estblish prohibition of
night work -Mr. Keernik. I think we would welcome it for the reason that it would
be a help to us.
Mr. Lynch of Vew York. I am fearful that if someithing
is not done
when the legislature meets, people will be therok.3 advocating
a suspension of all of the labor laws that affect t14.e working of women
in production, and they 're able to point to Mar.tsachuse,tts
which has
granted a number . of variations under which Wiellaela work
at night.
NO matter whether they were justified or whetto.er
they were not, that
will not be any evidence at all. The simple fiects
that they have
granted them and that women e re working in Meossachu
setts and that
Ohio has no law prohibiting women working at night
is eufficient.
It is hard going for
who are interested irk the presstvation of the law.
Just as soon as this draft becomes operative
the demand for
labor will be accentuated, and women- are going
to work at night whether
we who are trying to prevent it and under
stand its dangers elike it
or not. That situation is going to confront
us, and it is the part
of wisdom to try to meet it now. PersonaLly,
I believe that the '
proposition that you have put forth here, which
seems to have been
well thought out, is the proposition which in
the end. will result
in saving the labor laws andthe statutes t hat now
prohibit the employment of women at night, and will be oft
assistance to those states
that have not yet enacted laws prohibiting the
employment of women
at night, which permit women to work in some
instances without any
restriction at all . It will be of great;
assistance to those stetes,
both during the warrand especiilly after the war.
If we once weaken and take the laws off
the statute books,
then we are going to have a hard ti'eee iredoe
d to put them back there
after the war ends. I would rather see them
- emain there and see
e
the federal government assume charge of
tills situation, grant these
permi*s, wokkeight hours during the
tweinte-four; employ women under
requests made by the federal government; oe
the proper agencies, and
attach to the permit "For the period WI
the war only or for such
length of time thereafter as may be re
cessary to restore pre-war
conditione."
•
-25If that can he worked out --- and I should think it auld
on the basis that has been explained here --- I thkhk that the
age%cy that ehaeld ac4ve Vae responsibility will assume it and that
the respoasibility and the permits will terminsta at the conclusion.
of the war or within a reasonable time thereafter, and it will be
an incentive ard. encouxn3e.x.ent to the progressive people of the ctatre
that have not yst secured these laws protecting women and children,
and especially the prohibition of night woe*., and it will acsist the
states that heve done It to maintain *heir laws on the statute books
an. they can enfcrce their laws ps they did pr!.or to the wars shortly
after the conelueion of "IstiliA.9a. I :-now that I am in favor of this,
WGS Var4_71eeck. That would be the o:fect in New Jereey if such a
plan as we are discussing went through?
Cclonel Bryant of New Jersey. I think we would -lalcome anything of
that kind. When we entered the war I wrote an opefi letter to th6 atpployers of the state, calling attention to the f!- et that laws protecting
%Pozen and children and also lews protecting
should be enforced to
the limit, eat pointing ault the experience
had obtained in England
perticularly that there wes nn economic
ue in the breaking down of
those laws. We herfe insietse
with.vet exception, on en.fereement el•1-ee 1..at
course it )7 a veIi mue-!t easier thing for
us to insest on tb, eafoecement of tie "4ws .,here e loeve no la7v proh.ibitiog night work which would confront the employers who were working
a three-shift dv.
Cf coserse, New Jersey is ertirely honeycombed with work on
munitions. I imagine it has more rivniti-ne *tan any other state in
the unicn, certainly in proportIon t its eiee.
enpleys
over thirty thousand people on munitione.
great WIrg of these
firms are runnint three eight.-hour shj.fts, aid tet,y are empioying
women, too, on solcs. of the shifte. it is ee5rtg to :rev it .
,ery difwould be very
ficult for them if that enforre,en'o 16
but
glad to do it.
from Neee York that if
agree teIY: tht Commise
,grad rather see
there is any breeking dOwr of these regul 'ions I '
it come frau, the federal
(b) Tne cenf
night work for semen,
pressure broueht to miat
by the departments
er to the bed effects of
we-k laws reported
end the stend teken
her woman's
PalmIr of Pennlyivaria. PerInSylVVY,A. 17.t3 stood firr
law; that in feet of a very ilrgert eppeal fral on
'0 largest munie
tior plants in the United Stetes, at n
was pressing
her of'e-sive, when we 'fled lost sc
eplies in that
.r
flatfootedly
drive, we stood
- of the maneet,
aging eff- ner, stetine'
!.ttempt to
'
xeide
NOICal
- 26 Mr. Mulrea4Y ofssachusetts. A very big institution in Massachusetts
where they are manufacturing the Browning gun, a very itportant part
of the war, wanted overtime work, and we investigated it. Let me say,
too, that we have a !special investigator who attends to every application, goes to the plant, looks into the necessities and does
everything preliminary to the hearing. in this case he went to that
plant and returned and make the suggestion that it was more a lack
of management than a real emergency, but nevertheless if the permit
was Mot granted there would be a delay in the delivery of the Brown,ing gun, and that we could not permit under any circumstances. So
we said, "Well, we will give you a permit for thirty days. We will
send word to Washington and let them investigate it." And they did.
They s,.nt an inspector there,an expert engineer, to determine the
truth of What Ne suggested , and it was found that it was really and
truly a case of lack of management more than one of real war emergency.
Nt. Einkught_lcutualla. We have had several requests from employers, and I have one distinctly in mind. The request came endorsed by a captain of the militia, representing the federal govern.
ment. Certain ordnance was declared to be of vital importance to win..
ning the war, and unless they could work women daring the night they
would be uiable to get out the particular product in the time contracted for.
we handled the proposition a little differently from what
they did in Massachusetts. We think that the state is responsible
in reference to administering state laws. They guggested that the
law interfered with the national program, and I answered both the
employer and the captain of ordnance that perhaps that was true, that
it was an emergency that required concession with reference to working
conditions, but that the Industrial Commission of Wisconsin's law was
not passed fo, the purpose of passing upon war emergencies, and that he
should get his certificate from either the Council of National Defense
or the Ordnance Department of Washington and he would have no difficulty
withthe Commission when the certificate of necessity had been detsrmined
upon. He said he would do that. That was about three and a 41half
months ago, and / have heard nothing further from him,
Mr. -Gernon of Newyork. We investigated some 400 contracts for the
War Department a couple of months ago. We found very early in our
investigation that the contracts were given out in no proportion to the
capacity of the plant; and that is what had made the emergency in manY
instances. There is no necessity for giving a man a contract which is
ten times greater than he has any capacity to fill. That is Where most
of the difficulty has come from.
so
•
-,27
1ft, Norm.p of Nebraska. Out in Nebraska the manufacturers come time
and time again to appeal to the governor or to the labor commissioner
Alt the capitol to suspend the night work law. We have not suspended
anything in Nebraska. re make them live up to the law, to help those
states tat have not got laws to get them at the next session. They
get their war orders out: I think, on time, most of them, without any
difficulty in Nebraska.
4
Hazar4ns occ,12.paticxs. The int%koduction of women into new occupations
the :point of view of determining upon and keeping
was disc-ass
them out of the mhich present special hazards. An investigation of
occepations 2,Pd, of working nonAit!i.ons in a number of plants in Niagara
FalA was eetierf.bed by Mf.ss Van Kleeck as an instance of the kind of
scientfic study which is essential to this program. It ilso illustrated a method of cooperation as the work was done jointly by the
state de-eert;meat and the Committee on Hazardous Occupations Which
represente eeveral federal departments.
5*
The subject of ''eoual_emefer oclAl_wort" came up, and evoked consi,ieeable (Pecuss,on, the phrase being attacked as misleading and
the dfficulties of enforcement being brought out.
6-
The subject of the erallalige:it of women on the rai)roads was raised
ber several states. Difficulties were instanced in upholding state
standerde under governsount control of the railroads. The use of
women in tirrxeble occupations was cited. A Woman's Service Section
reeenlv esl.eblished jn The R. R. Administration was described by its
manaeer, Miss Pauline Ge?dmark.
Mise_pe)dicprIce. This is a small section which has been particularly
appeini,ed fr.)r the pv)'pcse et taking care of the interests of women,
actl_guner the Divieloa of !Aber of the Railroad Administration.
There weAn 22,W.Aiweaen in the service last April, and the figures have
not ye; u-3en cee]piled fob. Jetty.
:t is the intenVon of the Service to inspect conditions of
laor, bat necaesee'iy this werie w'.,11 be limited. The participation
of the ste 11, cp aer.)artn.entr, is ne.-,ued. General Order number 27
that the labor laws that are in force
cer t
the sc,rtteil ar-olL, to the rai7.road service. This in a way federalizes
the local stete laws ad leavea in the hands of the officials the inspect:ken. They
dkaw the attention of the Railroads to any nonobssrvame of labor laws.
The wemen ia tne railroad service are the first to seCure
equal pay for equal work without exception. This is assured under
the new wage orCers . The rates of pay are standardized for every
occupation and women ' participate in the new rulings just as aen do.
•
- 28 --
For instance, a woman who cleans coaches is paid a minimu.ri
of 28 cents an hour and a maxiLum of 40 cehts. It is not possiol.e for
such women to work for less thar 28 cents ar 'Acura A year ago wLen
women began to be taken inc the service in TAC-1 nariber:: they wee
getting 18 and 19 cents, and I*31.e-...e was a great sIlLsitutioli of women
It was found in Ohio
on account of the fact that they were cheap.
that women were bei±mg taken in for 18, 20, and 21 cents as laborers
and section hands, when you could not possibly get a man under 26
to 30 cents.
The railroads had the week before been directed to discontinue the use of women s s sectionlaborers anct as truckers in
freight depots and warehauges. This4eemed tifruper work for women,
who should b e transftrzed into some class of labor suitable for
their strength and with proper regard to their health.
-
F - Working Conditions Service.
of the Working Conditiens
The crgenization ae plans
1.
ribed by Miee Thorne,
:flelearment of Labor were desc
Service of
Assistant dieeeeDr.
ervce is one of the new
The Working Condition
Miss Thorne,.
of its functions was written by the
war servfeees. This descrintion
Secretary of Le.bee:
er of working cenditions in the
"'Lc exaelino into the matt
,vhich
the standards as to conditions
war industries; to lete:mine
#yembo
s
rule
pt
ado
to
war industries;
should be maintained in the
s
mean
best
the
ne
emi
ng them; to det
ing such standards and explaini
to
s
and
dard
stan
maintenance of such
for securing the option and
e0
orities for the above purpos
cooperate with state auth
to just what should
In going over the ground as
deterWorking Conditions Service, we
come within the scope of the
l isrsia
thev%age question as a controve
mined that we would exclude
deal with controversial issues.
There are other agencies to
sue.
-- Safeinto three main divisions
The field of this Service falls
nisene and Medicine and Labor Admi
ty Engineering, Industrial Hygi
tration.
Safety has been better
The field of Industrial
The various states have safety
organized than the other two.:
It is the function of the Divi
agencies, codes and regulations.
orand
s
tice
tandardize safety prac
sion of Safety Engineering .to'S
1,AWral standards.
ganizations, and to dJtc.:tmino
ice has been assured
The Working Conditions Serv
Standards and of the National
the cooperation of the Bureau of
t non-governmental agency in the
Safety Council, the most importan
safety field.
and Medicine
The Division of I"dustrial Hygiene
for the standadization
will investigate health hazards, and work
work, look:t will wideztake large educational
of health codes,
the
1 1alth hazards in industry. At
ttion of .
ingttowiArd the elimir,
etary of the Treasu'rY
request of the -z,n,c--eitpxy of La'ecr, the Secr
il personnel to con'stxreathori7ed the 1.1txbic health service to deta
Dr. A. J.
tute this Division of the Working Conditions Service.
Lan`a is Chief.
-
inistrat',on is Dr.
The Chief of the Disfon of Labor Athr.
ea,ent ard emlojee.i are arl important
M. Leiserson. The relations 'between Lanag
r engineering preblems in production
production prolo::., 6.ift7ering from othe
ent involved, The Division of Labor
in that it is rodifid by he hu:Aan elem
es that ought tc unJerly this rolatic)n
Administration wil) .c.,e7e]op the principl
educational campa:i,gn ior their disship in pr..)duetien, ani will ccnduct an
semination.
Safety Enginering Sections
The war oft :;t_and Safet,7 and the
2.
Branci,
ribed by Mr, P,
of the 44eysgy ne9t Olporatior was desc
Assistant, Ohief Safsty Engineer.
dtRartments which has been
The Oan of sooperation yith the feder.al
3.
Department, was presented by
A4optsd.,2,y_the liaferr Section of the Ordnance
5.1en_
CaP af,n
of:ards sToko on the need for
Mt. Charier, Oaks of tr.c_U
4.
ts
unl.fo:p afet sto;:!i
ei.:amiliation of w9rers by the
A tentati7e p-).an was discus:led fcr Vlysicz71
5.
ntc,
U. S. Rfployment Burecm, at the tin& of employr..e
6,LtE4led to
Dr„ Sby f th l'ublic Health berviee,
Torking :;oniitions Service.
ion as it is generally conducted repreUnfortunately, th,i r'ayical examinat
The
opportuniv for rejection.
sents to the eucloyea nothing roe than an
ion
inat
exam
ical
phys
the
., sec-Ares no benefit from
emploffer, gener311:r s:noakino)
The
ts.
ican
appl
asfm.of iv:paired
at the prosent 4dr1-1, PYJISS it be tha excl
UcAnts for Puplcyment. 7:t reaches
exp
fl
h
:re
physilel E.IrnattJr ace npt
iequi7e&t ab a condition of
clotin
only those wan arpir
establshment to
mcItte: of fact, the men wlIo rove from one
empleymcnt, &nd c,a
unnecessarily
phyEAE.1 exaoinations are re-e.:ained at
another which
frequent intlt9a:Is,
hope you will offer
"2hin plan wnich is proposed, and as to which!
to
n nf the present employment service
suggestions, pro7iLles for t'he eY.tensi
ates
ssit
nece
of Its Panctions ....That
include the physical exanlion ac one
caping e:pela.i.ly to the physical
prepa standari liut of job reclui-,:erts rola
a
d.,
secon
acc;r4Iish thLt wo07. L en#ails,
n'r
acity neci.Iseary i:: order
treme
in itself a
eratiea of Eis stria -c ph;sical exan!nati!ni
employs'k staff which this
melic
the
of
;ion
tzo
'16
,
tota:
task
dous
Avment will 1,e
iiva.alYpiYes fol. erjri
ment office, whe:x:
employment
ac,r;ise lei:1th the
given a physical examination, L :tAyotra
ation his
ider
cons
410
manager as to the pr.c.pr placemett of tne In,.tak1n47.1
be devised
must
there
th
physical capacity and poasily his tempezament. 1,nd
information in order
some scherile whereby the factory physician may obtain this
k
- 31 that he may assist the employe in regaining his normal condition
he be def-ctive, or maybe assist him in getting the very besi:. out of
himself that is possible to do under his impaired condition.
Mr. Norman of_alrllsa. We have had experience with physical examinations at differmt corporations, Take railroads, for example.
We have had it in times pass, but it was used for a blacklist.
Mr. rdsou of WILmala. How would you expect to follow up a particular examination?
Dr. Selby. The information would be conveyed to the plant pbysician
in some way.
Mrs. Hoskins. You do have a plant physician?
Dr. Selby. Oh, Yes, to take cate of the injuries and sanitation, and
that sort of thing. r presume that this plan would necessitate the
preparation of a card which would be given to the employee, good for
a certain period of time, possibly a year. in that way he would get
a re-examination at least yearbs,
M. Gernon of New York
There is nOthing that there has been sc
much opposition to on the part of workers, as physical examination.
Personally, / would like to see physical examinations if they could
be properly conducted, but I do not agree with them for the abuses
that have been injected into it.
Mr. Lynch of New york. I am in favor of the physical examination of
wage earners. I do not see how anybody connected with compensation
work can reach ;.ny other conclusion than that there should be physical examination of wage earners, and that the wage earner himself
should know ....mhat is dangerous for him to engage in. Surely, it
shows no particular interest in the wage earner to keep him in ignorance of some disease that he has, and then permit him to go to
work at some process in a factory that means certain death,
Dr. Meeker of the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
The employer has abusoid medical examinations. The reilroads abused
lots of things a long while ago. It is time we forgot some of them
ana/Vad and assisted the railroads. A great many men and a great
many institutions have abused all sorts of things in time; past, but
let us get together and get rid of the abuses of excellent things
and go ahead. If ever we needed -hysical examinations, we need them
now, and now is the time for some action to be taken to put the phythere thrroughly.
sical examination on the mop and put it
)4.
•••
32
ct the physical
If the Public Health Service is to condu
country, it is quite some
examination in all the plants of this
conteenplate socializing
job that it wIll have on i.ts hancls, De rou
ate takin3 under the Public
the medica profession? Do you contempl
icing p4slcian throughout the
Health( Service practieally every prat
meaa if you are going to
countryi Lec;iuse that iswarlett it wil)
Are you ready
effectively
hanile this job and going to handle it
it up?
to answer that question, or do you pass
very lucikly by saying thet
Dr. SelbY. I can answer that question
we have not got that far in our plan.
in these examinations of
Mr. Grap of Oreon. Is it contemplated
employee pay a fee for such
employees, 3r re-examinations, that the
examination?
EN,
to ask Dr. Selby whether he
Mrs t_SemT1e.of Perns20.vantg„. I wcruld like
to work out such stardards for the
thinks it is rriotie,eole or possible
may be issued in the form of codes
proper emplvimeat of men and that they
g them up on the other hand with a
as other state codes are issued, tyin
words, is it possible to use this
system of examination Wanks. Tri other
employment of womri for the safety
system in such P ray Aq to standerdize
of women geitIg into unusual employments?
authority. I was speaking 7ith
Dr, SektL X cannot speak entirely with
other day, who is probably the
Prof. Frederick S. Lee in New fork the
studies of fatigue, and he has been
leading man in the United States on
ng balance test, which measures
at is known technically as a stri
using
strength of the individual. I see no
with a fair degree of accuracy the
cannot be used in determining the
reason why tha spring alance test
cperaion. Having learned the average
average strength 1.e:11Ared in'the
ation, the aseertainment of the average
stmith required in a certain oper
to be placed on that operation can
strangth 6f the person who is proposed
no reason why that
ly. I see
be compared and be set down definite
cannot be worked out.
5 -
industrial seatim for differing
The need of more thorough sttLAY of
states and federal agencies.
ral
seve
occupations was emphasized by
V
- 33 Resolutl.on adopted by the conference
Mk. Lynah of New fork. I move that this conference go on record as
opposed to any lowering or repealing of labor laws and labor standards set up in thevarious states, unless on recommendation from
federal authority with competent jurisdiction, and that any modification or .suspension is to be by federal authority of competent juris..
diction.
(The motion was seconded.)
It has been asked what I would say was competent jurisdiction.
There have been certain agencies working to win the war; first and
foremost the President of the United States in his status as Commanderin..Chief; if he should ask that certain standards should be suspended
or Changed, of course it would be done. If the Secretary of the Navy
or Secretary of War should recommend that, it would naturally be the
supposition that that was concurred in by the President, who is their
chiefs and there would be acquiescence in that. If any such recommendation was made, I presume that it would only be made after consulting
with the various bureaus that have been handling the subject and with
the officers of the American Federation of Labor who have so far taken
quite a prominent part in the conduct of the war from the industry side.
We would therefore have faith in any recommendetion that might come
from Washington for either a suspension or a Change of some standard
in some of the states which might interfere with the winning of the war.
But otherwise, we are opposed to it.
We have every reason to believe that there
will be a drive to repeal labor legislation and the wiping off from the
statute books of things which are beneficial to labor and for the protection of memenqnd children, and we should oppose it and let it go
Out to the world that we are so opposed.
m194 p?Qt,
You can count on this machinery here in backing you up.
After some further discussion the motion was unanimously Carried.
Gernv If New York. I hope we will profit from this Conference by
having another one for the purpose of trying to bring the standards up in
the states that do not have standards. I think if we had a conference
like this with time enough to work it out thoroughly
'the findings of
the conference would have great weight.
34 -
suggestion. I also want to say
Miss Abbott Thank you for the
rence. We had in mind
that this cOnference is a genuine confe
and we wanted your advice
getting you here before we went ahead,
the idea from all of the
and experiettce. I hope you have gotten
appeared before you that
people of t/Oe Labor Depqrtment who have
from you as to the
we consider as a help a suggestion or opinion
way in vihich you
The
way in whict things are going in the field.
an order has gone out and
Can help us most is by telling us when
not working. That is the inWe think it is working, that it is
once. Te want you to
formation me want, and we will use it at
and can be improved
wrong
going
suggest ways in which things are
in any dire.ction.
are being
WhAt we want to fael here is that the facts
is
h
being sent in.
matio
put up to u.s in Washington, that full infor
of
various states is
Information* that comes from the labor officials
ngton, and begoing to reiveive most careful consideration in Washi
e do not think
cause you dto not get relief on one proposition pleas
the situation
that you c4nnot put up the next one. It may be that
next one can be s4
will have ithanged in the meantime, and that the
relieved.
BEFORE THE WAR LABOR POLICIES BOARD.
Conference of State Officials Charged with
Enf3rcement of State Labor Laws.
SECOND DAY.
Washington, D. C.,
October 1, 1918.
SMITH & HULSE,
Stenogrephers,
Whitford Bldg.,
Washington,D.C.
:
157
CONFERENCE UF QTATE OEFICIAL0 CHARGED WITH ENFORCEVENT OF QTATE LABOR LAWQ.
SECOND DAY
Office of the War Labor Policies Board,
18o7 H Street, Northwest,
WIshingtun, D. C.,
Tuesday, Uctot'er 1, 1918.
The conference resumed its session, pursuant to adjournment, at 9 o'clock a.m.,
Vise Mary Van Kleek, Director uf
Woman in Industry 9c'rvice, Department of labor, presiding.
Aiss VanKleak:
meeting today.
I thought Ise would want to expedite our
We have a vary large number of oabjects to
cover with relation tu women in industry.
Perhaps it Aould be most usefultake the first few
moments to summarize the problems that we hope tu disauss, and
then throw open the meeting to general discussi no beoause Ae
want the graater part of the morning to be given up
by you
from the State point of view.
oSe
158
I merely want to present to you some of the problems
that we are meeting from the point of view of the Federal
government.
-1),rhaps it would be useful if I tried to sketch
the scheme of organization at present in the Federal government fur dealing with women in industry and the relation we
hope to establish with the State departments of labor.
he want to look at it in this way: there are certain
agencies in the Federal government an
there are agencies
in the Sti,te whioh have relation to women in industry.
Ike
want to break down any barriers between those agencies and
regard ourselves a9 one big working scheme, one big staff
composed of Federal and
tate officials, to deal with the
problems ahead, and I think we shall all agree that one of
the most important labor problems directly ahead is the
problem of woman's
Qrk.
It is difficult to express that in the singular, beoause
it is problems of woman's work that form the basis, perhaps,
of the big questi ons 7ca have ahead, just for the r,tason that
women constitute the reserve force that the men call upon in
the emergency due to the withirawal of so many men for the
draft and due to the increased program of pruciuction.
I think we may admit at the outset that these rroblems
are very different in the different States; that in the States
159
in which there are fewer war contracts there has developed a
diffe:rant condition from that which obtained in States,
many of them the eastern States, in which there has been
vary large numbers of war contracts for some time past.
So
I
think if we bear that in mind in all our disoussion it will
help us to realize that *hat is true in one Fltate is nut
necessarily true in another 7t4tte, and therefore we may get
vary different raactiun with reference to this pn.blem.
The scheme of organization, briefly, is this:
of course,
as was explained yestarday,the ''ecratary of Labor is the
labor administrator to head in the Federai government the
activities of the Federal government with relation to labor.
Thera are created different laws and Congressional appropriations f r the Department of Labor, ana in the scheme of
organization it included several new services, among them
the *oman in Industry qergice, which was given the smallest
appropriation of any division of the derartment, and was
told it was expected to maintain contact iiith all of the work
in the other divisions of the Department in dealing with
women in industry, because of course there is no division
of the Department of Labor that does not in some way touch
women in industry.
So we maintain a close connection with
the work of any other department of the Federal government,
16O
like the War Department, or the Navy Department, with relation
to labor problems affecting women, and it was designated as
the central gvoup for policy making and the development of
standards.
The woman in industry service has only a small staff.
It has a smaller staff than it will have later, because it
is just in its beginnings.
It is designated as the advisor
to the secretary of Labor on all problems affecting 4omen,
and it is represented on the gar Labor T'olioies Board; that
is, the re;:resentative of the woman in industry service is
osed to be a representatives of problems of women's work
on the Aar Labor nolicias Board.
There are in several other Federal departments activities
relating to woman in industry.
The Ordnance Department, cur-
iously enough, first organized a woman's branch.
It organized
its swan's branch last January, and the worcan's branch is
rerresented in the ten district offices of the Ordance Department, and those women are carrying forward What might be
called industrial counselling in the plants working on
controts for the oraance Department in matters affecting
woman.
They are not making investigations as such; they are
not enforcing laws; they are endeavoring to devise plans Aith
reference to problems affecting women, and, to that end, are
161
maintaining as close connection as possible with State ,A.nd
local agencies and with the other divisions of the Goverrmed.
The %avy has stated that it would prefer to have its
problems of the Navy 21ant, the plant working on contracts
for the Navy, handled by the woman in industry service, ana
for that purpose will designate a woman inspector and detail
her to work with the woman in industry serviue.
That is a thing of the future.
The Navybas as yet no
organized work for woman.
The public health service is charged by executive order
recently with the control of activities in the Federal de:artments relating to health, with the exceptions of sudb activithe
ties as those in Thrgeon 1,3n3ralls office and with the excaption of the studies of occupational diseases which have
been carried on for some time by the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the Department of Labor.
Po that the public health
service, in view of its being designated by the ?resident
as having control of the health activities of the different
departments of the Federal government, is necessarily taking
up health in industry, '1.nd therefore touches woman in industry.
The Federal board for vocational education is charged
with certain responsibilities along those lines, and is
162
therefore also touching the problem.
In order to bring in thec.;e various groups the Woman
in Industry Rervica has organized a council on woman in
industry in which there is a representati,re of every division
of the Department of Labor and a raresentative of these
other Federal groups which ha7e more or less of a relation
to women in industry.
That council has Iriaatings at frequent intervals.
It is
entirely a conference council for the discussion of problems
affecting women.
In other words, you see, we are trying to
drab together, so far as Washington and the Federal government are concernea, the various gru APIs that have relation
to these problems.
on
In that scheme of things we are depending largely Qtate
departments of labor to "ork with us; and th,t is nut a
topic whichlan cover in a sentence.
That is the subject
for discussion this mornihg which will underlie every other
subject toudhea upon.
4e want to establish working relations
between the c'tate departments of labor and the Federal government and I should like to 51y that the Noman in Industry
service wishes to be
tives, so to speak.
regarded as your '%.sington representaWe are here to give you information
about policies -And st.Lndards affecting woman.
We are here
163
to serve in any rossible way as a medium of exchange from
:Jne dk-aztment of labor t.) another department of labpr; a
center of information in that way.
e are of course adunting
upon you to feel that we can get together in one big group
in this organization.
Now, like the frovarbial fool who rushes in, I feel
that the discussion yestaruay afternoon raised some questions
as to law enforcement which we must at least have a hyp(-theticui agreement upon before we proceed with the morning session;
and I am therefore going to take tha liberty of trying to
sum up the rlace wh3ra I Think we strid
the opinion of the Judge Pavocate
reference to
anu witb reference
to enforcement of 7tate labor laws, and later in the day I
hope that qajor Rosensohn will be here and that the situation
may be greatly claed from the point of view of a lawyer.
But for the present, let ue assume certain things, because
everything that we discuss will come back to the question 40f
law enforcement and the powers of the 9tate derartwents of
labor.
From Major Rosensohn's own statement a-1 from the actions
taian in the Federal government, we are clear to this point,
that there has b0en an opinion of the Judge Ad7opate General
164
with reference to the powers of State departments of labor
over Government contra,ots.
Whatever th3.t opinion may be,
the lar Labor Policie9 Board has affirmeci art. reaffirmed
the powers of State dapartinents of labor
by putting into
the contr3-ot a requirement that all the work done in conneotidn with that contract ior th,,i Federal 0:overna,ent shall be
in. full compliance with State labor lawq.
That contract
provision in itself might be assumed to carry with it the
enforcing power, since Ctato labor laws for the most part
inoiule in them a est tewant of the powers of the industrial
covalission or the btr eau of factory inspection; and in order
that th‘3re /night ce absolutely bc: doubt Al that point, the
Labor ')olicias Boari 4-ent furth,;- -r and recommended to
the c ontrzLc t rig department s that the head of the co ntracting
derLatment should designate.,; in those 'tates
.
in which there
is an enforcing authority for the oh.ild labor laws a.n official
irt the Otate to act as hi s rap re santa.tive in enforcing the
contractual obligation of the contractor with referan a to
thos3 Cli.U3as relating to labor conditions.
That means that you have been given an obligati.,n to
enforce
provisions of the oontract for the Federal
governtrent, regardless of any interrretatitsn of the origiaal
decision of the Jlige Advcioate
165
There is, however, a doubt of the application of the
Judge Advocate General's decision.
That decision declared
that because it was impossible and had been shown so in
previous deoisions on other matters for the States to interfere with the operations of the Federal government, therefore
it could not be held that State laws with reference to hours
of labor could apply to plants working on contracts for the
Federal government, and there is a doubt as to whether
that statement may not apply merely to a particular form of
contract known as the agency contract.
The agency contract has a number of characteristics, but
among them is the general characteristic that in it the
employer is not supposed to take cu ntrol ove'
il imr.loyees, which
is in line with the opinion of the legal department of be
New York Industrial CommissLn to which Commissioner Lynch
referred yesterday.
ambiguous.
In other words, the original decision is
k" he that we shall have it clarified shortly
by an opinion from the Judge A"vocate General which will
clear up this ambiguous point.
That may happen befyre this
conference adjourns, or it may happen shortly after, and the
information Ail' be sent to you.
But, meanwhile, let me say
again t'rit regardless of the interpratatior. of the decision
there is u. contractual obligation to enforce the law.
166
Major Rosansohn want further to make a su,Egestion which
in his o:Anion would avoid difficulties for Qome of you in
the States, and his suggestion Aaa that the powers of the
Federal government be invoked first before there was prosecution.
Major Rosensohn would himself say that that was
merely his opinion, that it was merely in the interest of
making sure that the Federal government did back you up in
cases where you were likely to be thallenged
s to the
authority of the State labor laws.
Let ma say au my personal opinion; which I hope may be
contradicted or affirmed in an authoritative *ay before this
conference ands, and as Miss Abbott said yesterday, that
proseoution by the State is absolutely essential at this
point.
We are rwt in any position to assume law enforcement
authority in the Federal governwent.
It would be a most
wasteful I:erformance to atte&pt it during the Aar; and the
effect of such action on State adwinistration immediately
following the tax, when certainly the Federal government
will not hava the same hold, would he obviously very serious.
Therefore itis certainly clear that the action of the 4ar
Labor Policies Eoard in putting these statements into the
c ntract and, seoondly, in deputizing the State authorities,
is in the interest of getting the teat rocsible enforcement
of the law.
•
167
Now, in any case it ig for you to decide whether you
are going to prosecute, whether you are going to get a
warrant, or whether you are going to seek action of the
Federal government and ask the Federal goverment to use its
influence; though I might cite one case vary recently in which
we were . asked to express an oi:inion where a contractor who
was wurking fur tile Navy was deliberately violating the State
laW on the assumption that the State law did not apply.
Chen
the State industrial commission brought them into court, the
contractor, through his lawyer, wrote to the Navy Department
and requested that an immediate statement he sent from the
Navy ordering that plant to employ women at night, as the
statethent was necessry in order to defend the proceedings
in court.
Needless to say, th
contractor received a
vigorous statement fr‘w the Navy Department that the Navy
wished the law enforced, that the contractor had taken his
own responsibility in the matter.
exceedingly important
Let za say that it was an
product that the plant was working on,
riyagt the contractor had
of the utmost importance intha war; )
taken his own responsibility and mLst siffer the punishment,
and that there was to be no interference with the policy
already stated by the department.
1
That is a octse on record, an. there are other cases.
168
This is the point, after all:
we want the law enforced
with the badcing of the 9tate departments and with tha backing of the Federal government, both.
It certainly is not
wise for the 9tates to bring into court cases which are nut
clear and in Whidh decisions might seriously weaken the
administration of the law, and dhan come tu the Federal
government with a case that is not well worked out and ask
tha Federal government tu back it up.
For that reason it
is desirable that thr:re should be the closest possible
contact between the 9tates and the Federal governmant in this
mattar.
It seems
oI
that the procedure is that When a plant
is working Ai a contract for the government, if there is a
violati.dn of tha•ana the =7 -tate labor law, which is
identiS al, it is desirable that the State should determine
tha hiseet poswiL.le aetion;and the wisest possible action is
the acti..n which will be most effective.
whatever course that seams tu you best.
y t,s por es
But proefted with
Uf course you do
u
o p r os
n .
y
Th e
t he
c
t
e sort.
But it seems to ma perfectly obvious that we can not expect
a
revoking of the contra.ct to be the first result; that that
is a serious matter from the point of view of the whole
production program as wall as from the point of view of
State labor law'administration.
You ara the outposts of this whdie situation, and your
action ia to be an effective action.
You
d-,:putized
to enforce thooe provi9ions of the oc.ntract, and the whole
point is the effectiveness ci it.
Clei.i.rly it
your
responsibility to see that the plants wcrking on contracts
in ecl, 9tate are living up to the announce.:. policy and
desire of the Federal derrtcleiJts; ar).; you are acting in the
capacity nct ‘nly of a 9tate but as a Federal agency.
If we may ascl)me that-- ,und we may discuss it later,
because it is only cne parson's opini n in a difficult
situatior-- poesibly we can :rcceed faster with the discussion of the enforcement of the laws after the morning session,
because that is our big task.
VAay I take up first of all the first subject on our
program this morning; that la, the introduction of women into
hazardous occucations.
3y that me mei4ri occwations which
present some special hazard, particuirly frow the point of
view of physioal safety.
170
As women are introduced into industry in place of men
this much has been made clear in experience, that the shortage of labor is very likely t;., be most acute in the most
disagreeable occupations, in the occupations involving
hazardss and the pressure is going to be thereafter greatest,
perhaps, to put women into occupations in which there are
dangers; and that is the reason that we are putting this
topic first upon the program, as le have to put it almost
first among the activities of the woman in industries service.
I may illustrate, perhaps, by the particular piece of
work we have already been doing, and it is an apt illustra,tiun, 'because it involves cooperation with the Industrial
Commission of New York State and may therefore illustrate in
a practical way what we may hope to accomplish in these
directions.
Before the woman in industry service was organized a
request was sent to the Department of Labor for permission
to employ women on night shifts in the manufacturing plants
at Niagara F0.110.
Niagara Falls is, as you know, producing
a great many things that are essential to the war program
along the lines of chemicals and rretals and alloys and lead,
and various other industries.
That request was referred to
the woman in industry service by the War labor Policies Board
171
. with instructions to take it as an example of a problem
and to develop thereby a method for dealing with this problem
of introducing women.
Ne started out with this assumption, that the request to
employ women at night was an
oall on labor supply;
that there vas & gr-3at deal to he done before we cuuld even
coU- to the question of considering night work fur women
there.
e preparei to leal with the question
not simrly as a
case prasental t,) us, but as a question of determining what
the conditions were that
were affecting +he labor supply
at Niagara Falls ari what the ounditions were which were
likely to affect itAs the war want on and over a period
of munths it was more and more necessary, perhaps, to introduce women it was necessary to introduce a plan wherev
men might be introduced later if they could nut be introduced now.
We organized a r:ommon which we called the
Commission on Hazardous Occupations, under the directLon of
the Qurgeon-lenaral's Office, with represertatives from the
kir Department And the Navy Per,artment and the l'ublic Health
9ervioe and the N3w York
1411te Industrial Commission, and we
asked that that Commission be a working committee and that
theS agencies in those various groups be put at uur
1
72
Niagara Falls.
disposal to leal with the problem at
It is
problem there.
both a health problem ,anl an engineering
ra. Falls.
The field forces had completel their .qork at Niaga
the case there is one
They have found, as we (expected., t1- at
y the emr..loyment of
of certain hazarif3 which affect seriousl
men as it affects the employment of women.
gs:
're hive illuitrated at "1,Agara Falls two thin
stry, which does
have !.1 typo of iniustry, the load inlu
affect women more seriou '1
Than it ‘iot•el affect men. There
is clear evidence to that effect.
In caser4 like that
ibition of the emhoi that there should be a clear proh
of toir efployment of ;4/orien if it in shown that because
fectl there is a hazard which is
view of the effects,
9c_irioul
from the point of
If, however, the hazardous occupa-
tion 19 one in v:hich the h.?.zar-
,O'fect men and women alike,
a serious efas in ar: abrasive industry "shere the lust has
fect on the lun7s, then it ii the task o" the Federal departments 'Aril o
the st.9te departments to lo ,vhatt,heycan to
, omen are to be introremoire those hazards Yhet."er or not '
cl earluced int;) that occupation, because those hr..zards, we
it is a
ly recngnize, are interfering v.vith production, and
war-time 'job to 3ee to it that tho9e hazards are removed.
rlarenthetically let ml say that there has been too
as a
much tendency, I gthink, tc 01lify women and ehillren
ng
protected group for labor legislation, instead of sayi
173
wh."..t seems to be the fpcts, that -iomen are to be proter
al workers, that men are to be protectel as workers, tr.c.,
there are ha.Aerr1k4 in their occupation 3 ani that action on
the p-art of labor impartments Ihould be just as effective
an'juet as itraltic for men as for women; that there ,3.re certain th ings wl. lob must exclu,lively be don:: fot women, hut
t1.--iat the,!..-re very much fevvtr than we have agsumed; that
nl large, the corlit ion fi that lhou3
by
'oe euth1iche.for
be establislefi also fr.lr men.
women lboul
we 1)'-tle our 1.iscussion this morning not upon the
that women are to be cla,31e1. with childrz.,n, •,,n -1 that
re 'ire to rake an app.;a1 on tn.1 ground of the
Th3rcr
r,arti-11,11.R.r position of women in society, -)11t that me aro to
face this problem aq a -ro711 em of working coniit ions affecting both
aro roino. 1
that
ha,ring•
women, ..-knri that we are to see to it
To111
a
elti.hligh, possibly by this method of
lrfrtr nurO)er of women in inluetry, if that in the
boat ff:It0,1 of rfletinir, it, eorrethin.- permanent which vi
irrpro770 Fi,11 work in
cow!it ions,
in1.7 (31. eRT in a number of these planto
It H c
havt.rjt1 in 7\71agn,ra ral.le, that it is bcst to rorove certain of thee hazarthi, that it 11 best to c.‘,•...m.Te
a11 corylitionl
ploy Il.arge
f
ork clo that it may be possib1:1 4o fir...-
numbers anri keep them more permanently at tvork.
El
Wilfg
Lwrth
174
7;oman in industry becomes a prcbilm of Li.bor supply
.L13t at thid momont.
ary way.
We cannot deal with it tn a fragment-
We have got to deal with it as an essential labor
problem and view our plans and aur actions 17rom that stand-
T171
woxit
bee
otmpletd at •
aLl a Falls, the
initial field v,ork, 40d we arc riaq
;;xtual
.
process of
nczotiatio. with the L'Idustri-1 Comission ';;hereby the
Induatrial CoJimission will go 0*,:ir these recomnendations,
' Jlere it IJ
m,lke a.dditional joint inspectiou ,
ci th
enforcef7ient of the labor laws, cooptc with us in
Lliose -,J,ters which are yet matters to be aaaLt gith by
state labor laws.which the state labor 19,w ma-. not cover
I ut which .can be covered by the authority of the FNieral
cxovernment, and unite the conclusions of the Fitate Departments and the Federal Governrcent.
You all know
it is possibl(;, if -ihe F,31cral
Government goes ;nto the states without rre ce to
State Departments of Tabor, J:cr
eLl
tc: say
to the Federal Lovernment that he cannot cnforc
their
request because the state com'Lission askNi him to do
something else, and, on the other hand, if that practice
.1
...7
is followed you are going to find that the employers will
say to you, 'We cannot enforce your request because the
Feral Government is asking us to do scm3thing else."
In many instances that would be merely an excuse, but
the point is that we have got to make soma plan by which
tire will b
no such crossing of wires, by which we will
concur in the things that we want to accomplish where the
state law is not au:fic1.2.nt to accomplish them, and the
Federal authority in the situation, the moral force of the
aituatiop
mlgat accu4lish it.
so much more done.
Then we can unite and get
And if we can follow some such policy
as that at tha end of the war, we shall have advanced
without leavina any raaaons in the zinds cf anybody in
the states to ea: that there is a cailflict between the
roups.
What has been done at Niagara Palls----anu I need not
go into any detail----is been to make a 1/Lr, careful study
of Jach occupation, first from the point oi view of the
Public Health Service, the aspect of medical work involved,
the point of view of :lagineers* as to what c,ta be done in
.
dust .eemovai
and the lika, and then to have those checked
by representatives of the Woman in Industry Service and the
176
New York State Department of Labor, who are women.
The
representatives of the Public Health Service are men.
They discovered that there was a great difference of opinion
as to the occupations that women aught to fill, and then
endeavored in getting around the table to find out what
the real objective purpose was for these recommendations.
We have not any standards, as a matter of fact, as to how
much reight women should lift, :or instale, as to what
costituted a real hazard, as to Mhe beat m3thods of protecting health in industry; and it is only by this crocess of
takins a concrete situation, taking a given industry and
a given i:dlace, and then trying to work that out, that we
can arrive anywhere.
We would like to feel thett you ita:e all a part of that
work.
We would like to have .nforillation.
For instance,
I know that a - ouuber of states have alraady been considering wcupAtions for women, and have reaoed certain conclusions.
It would be of im-Jense value to us to have
from you a staten nt of the occupatioLs you have been conhecauue i: you decide on
he possibility of
employinc womtin in a given occupation, JaJ results you
gain will be important to any other state, and although,
1`,
of courGe, they must always have a local application and
there are differences in these process,.:s in different
plants, nevertheless it is not necAssary to do the same
sort of detail work on the same job in every state.
Will you let us, therefore, be the medium for passing
Qn from one state to another the corilusions that yo:
n:ay reach?
Pennsylvahia has certain conclucions.
If
those are passed on to other states, it may result in
suestions from other states which I am sure Pennsylvania
will welcome.
Some other state probably has betri working on 3uch a
1-:roblem as lifting of weights.
If that ia passed on you
may be contradicted by some other state's experience, and
in the end me will arrive at some definit
As
Gernon said in the disaubsion yesterday the important
thin, after all, is not to deterinine Low ma-lly 1-,ounds a wom—
an can lift, but to study a given opration with all its
features, the way it is actually done, and if we study a
giveL
rooess in that way, we shall be aole to arrive at
a conclusion.
Braking on the railroads may have its
counterpart in the yards of the chemical industry.
We
may therefore get a cross out through several industries
178
It must be a practi—
with refeence to certain oprationa.
cal conclusion that is applicable through the offices of t'e
employment service, through the state departments of labor,
work in devising
throvOi all of these froupa that are doin
new plants; and it is that kind of careful study of the
occupations in 7hich women may be introduced that we rAist
make, because women are being introduced, and some sort
The thing is so
;ent action must be taken.
of intel1i7
vast, the numb:2r of occupations to be studied is so
enormous, that unless we can all concentrate on this and
really get some results, the whole Frocess '7111 be entirely
hit or rriss.
gov, the feature of niL;ht work.
Of all the problems
we have net, that ia the most serious anJ the most press—
ing, and I want to present tha various 1- . 11azie3 of it as
we have
ncountered tbem hero in Waehin
r
and to lay
bfore you the plan which is under considratio-,
Washington
zid to hav.? from 70u your opinion of the whole proceeding,
and especially eviJenc
3-Wes on t1.1
which you will brin
to us from.
iole problem cf •..i:ht -Iork.
pArtic7F1ar1y anxious to .1-1114 :rom
7assachus,Ato ct the
r,
Ts shall
ulr..ady of
ork of the InJu:Arial comzission
179
there boause As its b3arin{; on exemptions.
It happened that I 'raa connected
Department from January to July.
ith the Ordnance
I state that because
in that connetion a great many requests for exemptions
fro . atate labor laws come to the foman's Branch of the
Ordnanoe Department, and we had an opportunity to deal
with everyone of them in detail and therefore to watch
changing conditions.
We went on the assumption that no
request for permission to employ women at niElit would go
uninvestigated
on the ground that the state labor law did
not permit it, because. we wanted to be in a position to
state the facts; and so in a number of instances which came
to us, for ex-II-21 1 from a State like Pennsylvania, we
told the employer tat the State Industrial Board would
have no power to grant exemptions, that the Federal
GoviKent would not Grant exemptions for night work, but
we were sure to go over the details of his problem and to
see what other way there might be out of it.
In a very large majority of oases it was perfectly
Ilear that aiht work was the last thins that the plant
needed; that there were very many problIms of management,
very ma;(1
roLlerris of industrial relations for which the
180
happy solution seemed to be for the employer to put women
shift and all their difficulties would be
on a
solved.
Some times it was merely a problem of transporta—
They could not :et an adequate labor supply.
tion.
Some timesit was a problem of too 1,1:;. hours
interfariac 74ith the labor supply.
hih was
Some times it was
a feneral prob1e-1 of c-liployment, such as labor turn—over,
and loss of people for that re3.son.
A great variety of
reasons could be shown in those instances, and in the
most serious cases where it was obvious that something
shc;uld bd done, the Ordnance Department followed the
praeLioe of offering to send a woman employment manager
to the plant to stay there for several weeks if necessary to
help them work out their problem.
I would say that in
the cajority of cases that offer w:lx; not accepted; but
where it W8 accepted it !Tlive us an opportuity to study the
bona fide problem as it obtained.
As the maths went on, as more anf. more men were
1-.cafted into the Military Service, we thought that the
tie
a1
CGM
to look at this problem very seriously,
he cases .:,hich came to us began to show much more
serious aspects.
They began to show such a situation as
181
this:
A shortage of "labor among men of 5,0GO in a plant
working orn.bsolut ,21y essential proctuct upon which the
winning of the wax could be shown clearly to depend; housing
facilities in process of construction which would house
8,000---a shortae of 3,000, at bast; adding to that an
entirely new pro7ram of production, that is to say, a
program of production by which orders should be completed
from three to nix month e in advance of the original date
et for the comp1.3tion of the orders.
And when you have
a plant behind in its oriL;inal contract, 141d thm they
roei7e instructions tlt those orders must not only be up
to date, but that t1:10.3y .-fl)st be three to six months in
advanc ;. ., you see a production problem.
In that to.win it vvs hld that there were women in the
famili2s of wo kman airef“ly there, who, without any
additional housin,3, 7:ou1d he available for employment.
you all
that in tndustrial plants which
have not hitherto exployed women, in many of the munitions
iductrias, it is not rceeible to put women on a solid
day shift, bocuuse therm are rany ocoLpations that women
cannot comFlte, and the procse of replacement of men
by women goes forward in a partial sort of ray, introducing
GAT; GCC)U
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IC3
Tare on night 6hilt, mith
presumably, to adapt
1-Cmself to right shifts, with time, presably,for the
physiological changr3s, if we mak rut it tbat
which
:oull make that man a night worker instead of a day worker
to take place-it -,As perfectly clearly shown that there
was lower vitality
an
].ways In the mcrning houze btwess:I. two
three or four as compared with th(.- aay; that men are
not naturally nooturnal workers; tl!lA either a, man or a
aom.n finds rlisht work unnatural, and that we aught to get
rid c)f Light work in our industrial or.,er for both men and
on n.
tc) add to thilth
Woun have th.A.r work to ao
duti
3.
quart re.
Thy, lik
hoT.
crowdod
It is the night workr usually i-ho is the most
Yhe difficult_ of
:7,vd thi3 conoequenJe is
:%r;) .1)vinL, in crowded
4- et by :J,ty 13 very
. iht
diotad fron *ht cAnt of view of production
vita of health of the workers.
stan13ind the r int of
It must be our puri)ocie
rAltriot night work and Lraidually tc get
work.
omzia.
heir home
the men, ar,? living oftk:
hard preosed econcmi:;ally.
quarters.
af aots o.
of f. iicht
184
What is aur preseat situAion rith r3fs,rence to it?
' We have juz't
statos, If aur figur:c are up to date--
and, as you know, labor laws do ohange fast, so I am preo`tLe :las a nii;ht work law,
par d to hea2 that acue
so---w3 have a3ven
if'that
rals:1 T. shall be
whioh have night lork laws,
...,r.:hi -Ati7;n 0: ilizht -,ork for women.
uivlquivoaa1
We have some states
Ins'nrie of thue, like Mary-
whi3h 'have no alght work laws.
1A..a ada, 1 think, 1-„iw ilampshire, in whiah there is a
prohibition of ,ii,;111, vork 1: it is moll* tho- eight haurs--'out
WJ
are not oountiag
ThJre are seven which
have au unequivocal prohl'oitioh of night work.
Then we
have twc stateu, Wiacchbin aind Masetwhusotta, which can
grant exemptionw from the night work lcav.
Oo we have
fiv6 sLates which cannot graht exemp4iciiJ u.d22 the
utc,.te law prohibitin
night work.
The p oductior, program 13 Jr. a verf beriaus fosition.
We have eno4:1Lously inurfiasod our Army appropriations.
have to 4coumi.iilan
liat
done t:o thini;s:
We
We have with-
tirawh men from ln,.ustry
e are zoinr; to wthdraw them
at a 1:- .Lch inore rapid rate.
We le.ve also greatly incrased
the need for munitions.
We have been ueiiending to a very
185
large extnt upon English and French factories for some
of our most important munitions.
We have cot a war problem
immediately before us, and -7e all recognize that production
must be ilow if we are to hold the gains that have already
the success of the Allies.
There must b3 produc-
tio:i, etod there z.u.st be enormously increased production in
th.3 face );i: a
ocreased labor supply in which women form
the available rese.rve force.
r;hat has resulted in two very clNir things:
of all
First
night work is on the increase in those states which
in
du 7iot prohibit night work, and night work is ,,oing on those
,,t4t')a • ]thout any recognition fr(:)m state labor laws or from
FeJarai control, and without any supervision to Jeteririne
whether in a given case the ni,Iht work Is essential or not.
In those states which have iiiL;ht work laws we are encountring,
ou - exprience is vary toroughly
corroLorated by the sttements of the eforcing officials,
cvi,:ienc
of iisregard of the prsent night work laws', and,
more serious, bccause that can Le met by prosecution, we
are enoounterinL; evidence that there will be a concerted
effort to reval th.tae
iht work laws It the com5nv; session
of the Legislature,and that unless we arrive at some con-
186
ctruct
1:lan that is very likely to be successful if it
can be
had up, as it 33ems likely- to be backed up, with
statements of the pro uotion program and the relation of
wI men to the avallab e labor au:vly.
* .ow, that is no ,:;;;,sy proLlem to face.
GoVernment LI in a v,
ari ,Inomalous position.
is pctrmitted on
ouhtracts
The Federal
If night work
tha majority of
sttee---in '4he laigJ avIjority of staes---and if niaht
Ork
D
is simlay prohibitedd it. chose states which happen
to !Ave
n t U4.1.011E11 any policy of the
Federal G(Arerment but through tile state laws, that is
to a oertail L'xt,3nt a dodginE of the issue.
the FederaA Govrunc:nt :
Now, shauld
Utitt it m64 not be in a
11 0l'Ue r
positoon of dtbdging the issue, attempt to put into the
iont!.aots absclute prohii.00n of ni ht work for women in
ail states?
That' would be a logical proceadinL; which
wolz1:i be backsd
all oi the lacts th,lt 7;e have about
the bad efrects of night work.
Is that practicable?
We -intbt irry much whether that is a practicable procedur,,,
in the 4't;.ce of t‘ho production progrqm and tho immediate
LS:111- N th,lt :e
metim7.
Ef it is not a pzacticable
procedure, how can t'qa Fedenal Ck) irnt4H-3nt, actic,c,
1
ith the
II
187
states, control
work for women reatrictinL; it in
all states to those oases where there is a bona fide
national emergency in production which cannot be met by
other t.qployment method?
j2iefly, the plan which is uader cAlsideration in
Washi..„,t
but which is not yat finally decided upon or
finally announoed s is this:
That the Federal Government
attack night work in all states under control in
Cooperation with the State Lepartment of Labor or State
Tilustrial Commission; tnat hereafter aoright work will be
parmittm
or before
No ,
..,;mPloyfiient of women- 'xfter 10 p. m.
a.plant working on
Government contract
'or a subcontract for the Federal Government Iol)ld be
permittim4 under this plan s except by an emergency certificate
granted oy the Secretary of
arSr the Secretary of the
Navy; transmitted through the State Induetrial Commission
or the State Department of Labor by the Secretary of Tabor
who has designated the woman in industry srvic7 as his
immediate representative to deal with those cases in'case
that plan goes through.
That would mean this, that if a plant, we will sa5q
in a state which permits night uork, a plant in New;Jersey,
188
for instance, wishes to =ploy women aft:r.c 10 p. m.
or before 6 a. m., it vioul
make applioation to the
office of the Secretary of . War if it is workin
tract for the War Department.
on a con-
The office of the Secretary.
of Lir woull at on:31 tranenit that .c.A.u3t to the Woman
in Industry Servio, and there woull 1)1 a two-fold investi7,ationTar D:Tartment and 1,y the i:JeLa.,:tm,mt of Labor.
Pi:7ot of
Cetrrird
the nLoosity for -,roductlo
be el ,arly
the 1.oss:ity of 1.:1etin,
ccoduction of
that artiolc by a different distribution of the coritract'in
cooperation. with the War industries Boa,rd (:r by bOMS other
w:thod of r311.se of men from non-eeential inductries in
the partic4ar communit .
cr,
by the emlaoyment of men IniEht
:c.= Ale rcint of viw of i4orkin
the i.ossi)1 ity of meotin
that situation by two day shi;ts
of wcm en or by Jifferent m3thoi'le
.1m:aoyment, amon,
g them
the formation of a rliht shift of men.
,atioJ
ary ilvsti:,
same prelimin-
determin? the owoons v.-1110h wculd
rquir-2d :1.3fora any ::;uoh per!'..lt were is3ued.
permit were iesuA. it rould be iasutzd only to
If the
eI
plant for a apecifiz7d pJriod, and would be revekr:,d if the
r.quired londiticna ware not lived up to.
189
Bro:1417, certain definite rquirements would be made,
ia:Int would be allorad to certificate each emplo7
woman 7,1ore than aiht hirvra by day or niEht.
- ould be r,2quired to 1-;iv
4
Every plt
an int-rmission df thrl—quarters
of al; hour for the night lunch period and to see to it
it
Js Fossibla to secure a wholesome hot yroal at niL;ht.
T;r1 min -Litc; rest inriods would be required. in the 177:rking
It .rould be nec?ssary that transOrtation should
priods.
b: saf
lnd lonverlirt for ths
Tt ,10-11 be nelessary that there should be adequate
3U
;XT1$IoTi
t
i
oi
addci
he night shift.
In additi*n, there
rtain. r,c,1:.irerents ;Iiich would grow out
the siturlt -2n in 1 p'tricular plant, aY)d. y:he
Woman in LidLHtry Servio
the
shoul.ro3ivo aly such requeot
for Investigation it 777.7.1d immediately a3300iate , ith it
the State De::a-ctmnt of LE:bor.
We have already bee, iorkirt-6 on =kw xich basi9 as
Lat in a number of cases, whl_ch, Is I described in th,,
beginning, we had investigatA with the ulderstainding tilat
nijit work law must hold in the State of PenneYlvania,
Lt i-Jrocelure has worked, I think, vary effectively;
, the stte and Foal investiLAtions would be joint
190
thq.
investigations,
,.Lnd a
thre can
c no crogsi4g of wires,
thEtt there can be agr?ehlents in the whole situation,
J.Ad th:in the certificate would be issued with those safeguards, that it was issued with the consent and approval
the Secretary of Labor aad that it was issued as a
notice to the states under the war tiowers of the Federal
Goverament tkat a national emerclacy .-)xilts in a givn plant
ior a specified period, which would 2:Jsult, as some have
expressed it, in a state of auspe-dded animation in that
particular plmt on the it,Ite 1-:rohibition of employment at
ni4it wher
the atate prohibition 13 u..clotu.ivoc,:ta, as in
:s1 five states.
th,
face
In the othe:f 3to.tes id us mta.to
hav.1 a perfectly
0.s 1-dro0lem
Iut rwch a. progrirr; into ..ffect.
•
ftlx.%t, thd.t we shall
The protests
would be trcmcndous from manufacturers who have no
ic1F;a
t
sJork can
contraL;c1 by the Fed ,:ral
Gov:Irr:.-nr!TA, azd we 2i-h?,.1). need the ba.ckt4i to the limit of
the Ste.te Industria,3. Cora:lesions and the Etate Depa.-tments
of T:abor if any ouch 1-..roL;r4tr. 13 to be put into effJct.
Bu
th(lue, ar:. the things that we hope to accompLish .y this
program or by any eV-1,3r which uk-_.
, y be worked out.
1:
We do not want to see state la7s repealed by those
stat2s which have won them after such long and diligent
effort.
We want to see the point established that in no
state in this country should women be employed at night
except in a national emergency.
We want to lay the
undation for the :aabit that in those states which have
no night work laws they will expect to nave to ffo to their
state coadAssion or Department of Labor before they put
night work in effect; and by that method we hope that a
habit 1,1:7 be established which will result in TU b more
extensive lads prohibiting night work after the war and
Lt. in the experience 'asined through that course there
will undoubtidly be evidence which would be the To3t valuable
sort of basis for prohibition of night work after the war.
At bast we have gone a very, very little way in prohibi—
tion oT -147ht work, but now we are facing the fact and we
_...ealize as never before that safeguards of women's work
as t.-; hours
:;ork and as to prohibition of ni7;ht work
are essential to the nation, and we ehould certainly have
a basis for a drive which has far more nonentun in it
than we have ever had when there 1,s some effect17e 1e3is1ation on the statute books.
192
That, then, is the i;oint at vhi.h we have arrived in
the discussion of that prpblem, and it is perhapo th.e most
14porta;it problw we have before this group, and ons which
W3
want to take up in detkil.
I3eforelive take up that problem I
to aay just a
word about the other problems that the Womasil in Industry
Elc:rvice
s beora it, oecA.use they are many, but they
are not in the Lorm, all of them, that can be dealt with by
this body.
or instance,
he question of wages.
The
Federal Government has very clearly daol.J.red its policy
th,..t there ahall be tie same pay for the same work when
woman takes man's place.
:
- well.
as we know Ir2,1
That is not always being =forced,
.The wage adjustment boards establish-
ed in tba Government have, for the most part,affected women
very little so far.
Women have not been represented on
The National Wax Lattr Board has no woman
thse boards.
.
.cepres3ritativ.3
-
The Wage Adjustment Board in the
shipping induotry you miLht say, A.LL riot need a woman representative, but when you come t - conoidcr ita relation to
.at many
il..Justries, like the metal industry, you wonder
whether it do,A3 not need a woman representative.
For
the most part, :lorever, the wa e adjustment boards have not
1
193
had women on them and have not dealt with the problem of
woments wages.
- s and of the
We hear a great deal of the soaring wag 2
very high price of 80 cents an hour paid to certain groups
of men.
We realize tiat women
this situation are not
merely going into the market as sage oarners, but that they
are bread winners at home; that they are taking the plawe
of men economically at
home.
ThJ; Women's Traae Union
League recently at an executive board !Gating declared
wa3s should be the full male
wage.
That may be quite
It already has proved to be so,
a poser for some people.
and yet we know that before the war the typical wageearning girl was earning female
wages.
not . male
In the invstigation of 1907 and 1908 it was
shI wn that ferale wo,ge earners had somebody at least
dependent upon them for their wages, as well as having to
support themselvee.
that we have had before th' war
a vary great justifioation for thinking of women's wages
in terms of women collectively, and we have got
Sf a justification of that
Ich more
ctuai faot at this mcmsnt.
That in the policy of the Federal Government, and any
way that can be devised for closer corinections with statO
i94
wage °omissions All hi
way that
A y
us to rt)aoh that proolems
an bo Avised by which inspectors in these
states which have nohin.,; to ,c ;iitn
our attelltion ca.ses ahere th
4i4„:s
ill
brir., to
principlz of the sam
the same -:ork is not bc1;1nL;£ollowd, xxx xx
pay for
riil ,reatly
help.
The problem of training is
And there is LL trainin,L;
ariaus matter.
1.:LI di Ltion sarvies in the Depart—
ment of Labor which is fa:2alinc with that as a war
emergency.
That traininL; and dilution service is in
close cor,eotion ;Jith the Federal Board for Vocational
Education, and the importance is of courae tc, heip train
women for the proces3es in which they should be employed;
via
it 8311L8 to
that your relation to Lhat etnd our
relation to that is to endeavor to bring about a condition
insure
wholsono
work shall be done under
healthful conditions.
Those .1,ry3 some of the outstanding problems that
we are facing.
I want, befo:.3 we Ipljn the disoussion,) er a statement
from the states which air :ady have women's A.visions as
to the scope of their or anization.
Women's problems are
195
considereS as something apart from the labor
problem, and yet they have special aspects which need special
consid:,ration; and all along the line, if we are to cL:al
in any adequate way with the questions ahead in the
substitution of women for wen, and with the question...4
the most effective uee cf womanis work in tha industries
in which they have always boon employed, and 1Z Na a:fo to
daal allquately
ith thestioic economic
roblem
country at this timl, which is not merely a. I:roblem of
supplies, but a problem of civilian life as well, we do
.naed the conce%tra.ted attention of th7f various states to
thae problms, :Ind we should Ale to fel th,A, there
will ,
d .. 312;nated in the different states a group d:
'women. in the State lTipatments of labor
whom we 'can regard
as our reprase:.tatives, an+ we in turn
their
representatives here, zo that we shall live r)Aitinuous Atention and eontintmus exchange of I
.roblems.
•
-
I
athese
You all know the tremendous amount of
detailH..have to cc:war
enforcement in the utateo.
A is not possible to acJomplish any such exchange of information so far as women in induntry are concerned unless somebody is
196
So far as I know, there are four states, and I hope
I may be oorreoted by the addition of a number of others,
which have definite women's divisions.
Minnesota has a
woman's division; Pennsylvania has a woman's bureau;
10/ lurk State hz.s a 3,;.oman's bureau, and Wisconsin has a
viornan's -ivision1
will now call O- the Commikisionere of th as four
st,..tes l'or a b,.ief sttement about the organization of
their -
man's division, and then if
or if there have bo.2
11.rt) are additions
some forms of organization deve L
. op-
ed to take care of these problems adequately in the other
states .;e3 want to hear from them.
,ay I call ulon Minnesota?
,r. Gardiner:
(Min:Iesota):
ad _rntl meL, I will sp ak
Madaii Chaina.n and ladieS
riefly about the orLa.ization
of the Woman's Division of Minnesota.
When I first entered the department as a _factory
inspector in 1904 we had no 4oman's Avision.
the department for about four years
I left
returned to it as
assistant to the late ComA,mioner, ML. Houck, and wh,7,n I
returned there had been a woman's division orEanized,
under the able leadership of the late irs. Starkweather.
197
I had not follow..A the work of this
ivision fron the
tie it was organized until I got bc
and encaed in its activities.
o the department
I agreed with a member
of the committee that I could net see the nfIcsaity for a
woman's division.
it
I had net risen t; the octoasio;-1, and
as not until I' had been back for two years, Turing
which time IjOg had been able to watch t11-.? development
of th.7 ;ork in which they :ere e7'gaged-that I had becn
alD)
to see the results thl wers.
ccon:Jiched.
After that I changed my mind, and I have boon growing
with the :rwing division of the
cman's ciepartLent.
To-
day I cannot understnd why any state of any size or magntu:e that is & prosrssivc state can Let TloriL:; in the field
of labor or hA the filld of women in inu3try without a
woman's division.
There are so many things in cis.JtioL
that
work that they take from the CummisAorlexta iihouleers,
frOm taw men's division of factor.:jiIiepotioi,:Iad it is
remarkaUe how state have gottan alon
Athout the woman's
division at aii.
Th?. ZI -L•et division in linnesota was a single individual.
I
Tien it ,as incr3ased to four with a dsfined head.
In
198
1E13 when the department was reorganized tho titl
of the
head of that woman's division was changed from the
Assistant Commissioner of Labor to the Superintendent, and
it still holds tht, title.
Miss Agnes L. Peterson, who
was with us, has just taken a brief 1.ave of absence, I am
sorry to say, from Minnesota, and I am mire she is going to
be engaged in a larger fild of activity in connection
with women in industry, and 1 wish her
Godspeed
suc-
COBS
The Legislature provided in the reorgalizatiol: law
for four women inspectors, but unfortunately for the
woman's division the appropriation committee did not see
fit to provide funds sufficient to warrant the Commissioner
in placing a fourth in3p3ctcr on the staff or on the
Under the laws 71 the State of '7innesota in
force.
connection with the womam's division one provision says
that the Bureau of Women and Children shall have power
to
enforce and cause to be enforced by complaint in any court
or otherwise all laws and local ordinances relating to the
health, morals or comfort and oneral welfare of women and
children.
the inspction that I just closed I want just to
199
cite a few figures.
It will not take me.more than a minut.
I have brought that wlth me to show the ,amount of work that
has 161 accomplished, although the figures really do not
show the magnitude of the work of the woman's division,
cause thre is lo - IA& follow-sup work and so many re-visits
and so forth, that in figures it does not look as large as
it really is.
the two years ending June 30, 1.1.6, the Department
of L-ti.bor and Industries made 15,396 inspections to promote
th
eafety and welfare of workers.
Of these, 2,120 were
filade by the Bureau of Women and Children.
The factory
inspectors issued 10,302 orders to safoguard dangerous
places, and 890 others to enforce regulations reIting to
women and children, making a total of 11,199 orders
iasuad 14 two yare.
I jU3t want to cite Lhose figura to you to show you
just
Alat the division hao been doing.
Now, ladis and gentlemen, during the activities
in - the different states and with the Federal Government in
connectiSn with the war, the Council of Nation:1 Defense
started out to make an inv3stigation of women in industry
and those working 5utsi7le of the IS.;
200
When it came to Minnesota and asked for our assistance,
had it not been. for the fact that we had the organization
and 11.:.d the machinery well
and workinc well, it would
have been an absoAlte impossibility to have rendered the
Council of National Defense the service that 1de have been
abl,a to render them.
We were only too glao. to be able to
do it, and I think Miss Petrson will bear we out when I
say 7:e hay." not placed anythinc in their way in order that
they might make a auccese and gather the necessary informa—
tion,
It is not ualy the State of Minnesota that is going
to be benefited br this industrial auryay.
the Union.
Every state
.Tg)ing to receive beneiit from the results
of the survey and the statistics that have developed as
a r.:..suit of it.
I am sure---and I lant to speak to you franklyT—that
while thre have been
SOW)
mistales, and we all make
takes; then: are weaknesses; thore are parts of the
machine in the woman's department that need bolstering
up and will
stand;.irds
d bolstering up---we have good vorking
Lhey are going to continua, and thay are
getting informfation that no man would ever think of get—
201
ting, -Thieh is all to the benefit of women in inAlotry.
As th
war progresses—and T do not quit
agrce with
the opinion of Mr. Cohen from Illinois that he made ycster—
lay that he thought after the war was over th:A the
women would be in the same lines of industry as they were
before---we clail that it has been discovered that women
can
lots of things that ce little dramed of before this
war otarted,
h
hey will continue in their activities, not
alone in these activiti e, after the war is over, and
we need more and more
_OT:4,4-i
- A.11 ne'ad more and more,
after the war, of women's ciivi3lons in the D,Ipv...rtment of
Tiabor, and we men have to strength,m their hands,
thank you.
Ms Van Klee,k:
(ApplAuse.)
lay we (still stay iA the Middle
West and ask 1. Hambrecht of Wisoonlin to spea
ir. Hambrecht!
to us?
The fa otions of the Industrial
Commission might )e classified into santy Ant sanitation,
the administration of workme1'3 compensation laws, woman
and child labor, mediation and ar,itratio
;In
4.04ilf,4
a-- -rtaining to
apprenticeship.
Ther3 are vory few state laws existinc so fax as
rigid r.agnlations are concrned, only general statutes
202
leavi
o the InduEltrial Ommission th,3 worlcirr out of
Mtailcd application of the general statut3s.
think perILI.peth2A
concerned.
ttflqu,-!, so far as state laws are
Tha nsconsin Industrial Commis3ion has worke
out many of thl I1allu that 71L.va b:-;an charged to us.
ista-)ca, lAly a y7ar ago wo
For
o'A and put in the rules
0s, so far :s thc state in conclrncd, prohib —
0;
ti(
•
klt. wcrk in J:i1c-tr4 o 7or
the stiAut,e .;ook forr
declared and
a
rcrit „ after 1113 Aar was
brhc-;n ni
the industric-s of Wisconsif...
raat 71g. AA put
wor
or.,3ein
It met vvith f.1
but not a great deal, and novi it is an
Thse
into
...itab3ished fact,
eral powera Vlat hava been chaTzed to the
Industrial 00mmissio7, .),re 141o3sible
adequtc adfldnistra—
Lion unless the Commission would employ as the aZministrator
of those derartments :,11 executive dopl)ty.
fr.;e1
we have at the 11:.;ari of ,Jach one of the five
doprtnenta,
13
Consequently,
out meJim.tio• aritratiom s which
!only an (JoJaaion:d :unctioa of
:1N,.e Co!.ssio, an execuir-
,0cmcr
that rAnks in ,:var: 5.- av;ct '3ith reference to
hiV. ability and
on ti
A.Lh reference
s:tmo plane as Ala CoL:
powers delegaUid to him
Ths Commission
203
looks to thc executive deputy.for idoas rathr than constantly giving the ideas to the executive (1put:, and I feel tat
that manner of carrying out the work that is charged to us
is brining good risults.
I feel that qe are fortunate
in having an executive to whom we can refer, and I am very
pleased to say that up to the preset time
'N?,
have always
f:It that Implicit confidence vs in the people to whom we
have tele,-,qted
crork.
Ti
Co m
ieSiOn
'you'd feel like
chanL:e if it had to constantly tell the deputy
yhat saa to be done.
I think that if Tisconsin has auo,
:eeded in putting
,atute books any i:avs for the .Nelfare of women and
on
\er
rU 4
t./
7
childrarl it has been bee.tuse of this Divlsion of Labor and
of the co7.fierie3 that the ColiA.ssion h:Ls in the
executive heads of the several departments that are helping
us -ork out
Jise problems.
Men) is a complete under3tandiag •.Aween the exeutive
heads u
a
the Inlustrial Comnission's
ilivatration.
tments.
I
iLlat
then Ihe adniiiistxatioJof tl- o law
pertaining to women working in pea canneries w,Ls undertn
it %!as u very acute situation with r3ference to the administration, but we succeedea in adr::iniotcricg it.
Miss Copp, who
is her3 with us, had charge of the administra,tion of the
workin
hour:; and conons in the pea canneris, and
she had at her command during the entire caming season all
the deputies of the Industrial Commisoin and all the other
'..epartmente, becuse we considerd it a moat iortant part
of
work
C,
:
,nsequently,
hand.
e[itire force of the
'Safety and Sanitation Lapavtment was turnad over to her, and
we met very hearty cooperation amog the pea :,.anners themselves, and I am sur
weGood results.
It also happans in our Safety In.1 Sanitation Depart-.
ment thetproblems come up with reference to acci-ent prevetion,.that a me tLles Uiss Copp and her deputia can
hanJle better than one cyj
tur
that
is vorkin
specific deputi,“3, and, in
ork is exchanged, so that the whole oommission
as a. wAt, at tha ';ame time beinG del,c1rtmentized
sinto five imortnt adlnistrative heads.
The c:nestion of legislation, if I may term it so, by
the CemAssion has a'so workd out exociadingly satisiL this way.
If ,- e) meet a particulal. diifioulty
with rererence to the adelii.istration of aur law we can remectr
it by forulating a rule of the Commission whioh has the
affect and forge of a statute.
If we find that a certain
205
exception ought to be made as to workinL conditions, the
Commission ean do it vithout Jaitim. two y ars for the
The constitutionality of that
LT:ialature to meet.
privilege of delegation of porer ti:) the Com:lission w s
cent3y passod uion in Visconsin.
7ourt dTcied
tLat
At firut the Supreme
a dciot;ation of legislative
1:cy..ers that would be contrary to the spirit and letter of
Upon a re—hearin6 the Sv.prorie Court
tie .06stitut ion.
rev rsed italf and hold, and. I thinl ver.;i. properly
t
SO,
the li:;cislivo power had ben determined by the
t
T,(Oplature itacjf in Ling dova Lroad principles; in
other words, tb..
the Legislature said that factoris and
machin ry in factories should be safesuarded, leaving to
the Commissio6 the rurr of safeguarding, and the details
of the wirinistratio
sion.
were very properly left to the Com'As—
So the coAstitutionality of t.t, hA3 already been
passed on aa Is workin
I thank you.
vary aatisfactorily.
(A t,lause).
Miss Van Kleek:
I think the nAit state to orDlnize
a woman's bureau was Pennsylasnia.
• Palmer:
Mr. Palmr?
I do not know the chronologicsal order
or thse JepalAments.
nrs^
4,0
1
4-J/
Uks Colordo and som
11-
more of th m, tn 1913,
ilost
es know, our Df*artmnt of Labor and Inj.ustry
tht ti;.o the Act pro-
v/J.8 Jevo1opd iIi. Pennsylvania, and
vid. for rcprcseation for vioon ,)11 the inUuLitrial board.
aLti!
-e(Coer, "rs. Semple, xIta is pr
Dciar
in
Divislon of Hy
.t hr o today representlile if. the
of
Cc
1,1c(
rovici, Dr.o tricker,
nf7 a winr.af :-ember
Vie t'air;.; that the
:7:of t
wAleut rerrlssration is still unjust, <;..ril Nii.::rever woman
z.J.2:
r.Ulovci to work in Ronnsylvallia it 'ill Ja by .the
sanction of 1771
.. .vman ra,.., -sa7-1.LIt1vi, u
our uc;partmcnts.
(I do not feel thaL it w8 raally 11.-,:ssary tc place
(
th..i.s r.noibility r.,.11 the :- .omen bc;c.-:use 1 do riot believe
tht olthel. Comlninsic:ner d oh4Ittrot or mys-cif 'llas any less
rard tor the women ilad children.
right to cis; Lhem tosethe.f.
I think it is oily
Th2ra do no :Ina tit this
ciure here (ref3rring to Fourth Librt." Loan poster o[i
wail) apvAlc to any more than it dos to !1, .
1 think
th:;. .t physical ..)onditions .;1"-o-up women ani children toaether,
:_nd I think the women should properly be over and in control
of
7.1osa two dilisions.
Th:;.t w-a i)efore the wax.
f!
Along with that, (441 we de-
207
veloped our departmmt and grew, we developed our woman's
Sivision.
It was in 1914, I think, that we put a speoial
inspector at the head of it.
We have glven our woman
insotcrd equal pay with the Az.en, an,a today we 'nave a
$1,e0o
and "':1,500
Witb th3 wax cace 4wo pro.., and we hava increased
that division, Tlaoing D2: Bricker of thz L1\11313:1 of
HyOglAte al. di:Tector of that ditisio:i.
SuDordinat:i to
her A.11 be the -Ionian dir ctor
her or
that fills thi :)1.1.oe that sh3 praviously filled.
Sempl,J
f1,
2 the indu5trial boar
irivstions in other
se
mda axte sive
vioiting Massaohunetts to
whA good work was being done in New England arid in
ConnL-cticut and some of thcos othca st.Aes that have been
facej vl,ith war 1,robl'Jrns.
The people in Washinton know tat Pennsy1vania
has cAood ri.cm for her woman's law; tL!A, in face of a
very tagnt appeal from one of the largtist munon plants
111 Unted 3at.s, at a
kx
when Germany was pressing
oftensive, when we had lost EW much of our vital
supplis in that drive, we stood flatfootdly in that
plant, in the face of the managing officer, that we'could
11
208
not and would not attempt to uet aside our woman's law.
Aid in order to feel sure that Pennsylvania was doini; aer
part and was 000perating with the F3deral Government, I
visited the Seol'etary of War himnelf, and he asked us that
hol4 to our Iaws until we receive from him a direct
erson,:;.1 appeal to aet them aisle.
That has b::!en the
pI-on tbat we have taken there, by the Governor, by
aur Industrial Eoard and by aur Attorey General, that only
by a permit 2in ,(1 by the Secretary of
thl 71:7y ow!rridina. aur state law can
axI
WO
the Secretary
set aside our
state ragtAlations.
We feel, as Minnesota has stutsd, that other stz;.tes
should have it.
We believe they all will M.ve
because
the women know thoir own problems, and, as I say, taxation
uithout r,*resentation is still unjust.
'Ass Van Kleek:
(Applause.)
',41.y we heaT from Covr.lio9ionr Lynch
,i.bout the newly or;alized bur?au of Women in Industry in
York State?
I want to t ;- 11ch on it rathcr bricfly,
of one
anxiaus t;)
bac to the disouslion/of the
L;rzh:
beoauss 1
LIM
other vitaA
1)efoxe this conf,3rerce, and that is night
work for women, and c.
tha mattcx cf payin
women for work.
/
209
In that connection, let me say that I would like to
hoar the expession °the same pay for the same work", in
of that old fraud, "equal pay for equal work."
We hlve hcd inspectors, women inspectors, in the New
York Depa-rtment of Labor, for a great many years, and the
questions affectins women particularly are hancllod by the
women inspectors to a very
reat extent until tha_;ammismv
sion on Indutrial Hygiene 7vas added to the
ffIr York State
department --erf-ftrile-s, and the question of women in
inAustry was handled in some of its phases through that
division.
Recently, through the cooperation of a group of
women tsho have always been promine'it in New York City so
far as the welfare of women in inJustry in conc:rled, we
have been enabled to establish a women's bureau, and for
the present that bureau is being finance2. by these women and
their sympathizers with the work who enabled us to establish
it.
It is working out its own destiny for thQ
being,
and will undoubtedly be a , ost valuable all to the
Industrial Commission of the State of N,,w Yozk.
7f168
Swartz, whl is here with us, is the oaief of that bureau,
itnri
"twat
hnna
4,1
4.1,,,1
4.1-1
Adbartismaint
210
the State will finanoo that bureau on th3 same basis
that it does all of the other bureaus
and that by that
time, by the time that the matter to ul; for oonsideration
before the Legislature, thie women's bliteau shall have
demonstrated its usefulness and its necessity ,c)
e that the
LeL;islature oan do nothing else lhan to provide funds for
properly ounducting it; and if it does, it will be a most
valuable rwoossory to our work.
(Applause.)
Unlc:sa there is further disaussion
nise V4n
this i)oiat, I think we had better prooeed to the
.Asaussion of aomen in night work, and I want to rwsk Mr.
Llulready to tell us about the administration tnder the
IAustrial Com ,ission in Massachusetts of
Wa.r
exemptions durina the wax-7Zr, K3arns:
(Ohic):
I do not likc) to let this
opportunity sliv by, nadam Chairman
'ass
A.eek:
0.•
41/1•11
I hope Ohio h„s a woman's division
to report.
'1.. 'J.:earns:
sic:1:i.
Wo (..o not happen to have a womanla divi—
We 1-,ave no division that is supervised 1)! a woman,
but Ohio has since 190G had in the pepartment of Inspotions
of Work Sl'Apps anJ Faotories eight womtn imam= whose
211
principal duties have been the enforcement of the laws relating to the employment of women and children and investigating conditions under which both women and children are
em:loyed.
In addition to those )12ht women, Ohio's del)artsnent is
working with the authorities in the larger citis, such
as Cincinnati, Cleveland and Toledo, getting amellent
cooperation from that source, and, of course, at the present
•.
Ohio is really
time is 'dorking with the womenin industry.
one of the lioneers.
I heard some one here representing
0n3 of the stats say tha
they Ind had such a division since
1911 or 1912, or somewhere along there.
Ohio has had its
division since 19043.
I want to say this---I do not want to take up much of
you
time except that I waited to put it on record here--
that :e have these womtn employed in this Arork and that they
are accomplisaing magnificent results, not only enforcing
the laws which we have on the statute books relating to the
employment of - omen and children, but und, r the broad provisions of the in:ustriai conarAsuion Lx, or thc law creating the Industrial ComrAssion of Ohio, the department was
deal
given a ;Iseat broader po.4ers in the matter ofinvestigation
212
and Inforcemeht oi regulations regc.rdinG the employment of
women, in connection with the protection to the life and limb,
haa.cth and welfare of all industrial workers; so that it
has ,;iven lie a broader field to work in, and these women
as well as tIvi inspctore have gone Lueh .Curth3r in the
matter of regllating conditions particula,rly unor
which women and children arl employ9d than the laws or the
statutory anactnents iprmitted them to L,o iader the old
order of things.
So we have rally accom)lishod ma.;nificent results :Lrici
tAmk one o1 the best moves that Ohio ,ver rd.a or that
a iy othstatefer iaAe was when they added wDmen inspectors to
the factory insi,ection of the Labor Eepartment.
Lissner:
(Jalifornia):
It oeelLo to no that
we micht have a brief report from the Inau9trial Welfare
is
iNmNi-154.41A of California, which
Joinr considerable
work :dons
. those lines.
. Edson:
l!rs. Edson?
(California):
A.vision in California,
l'71
We stave no woman's
hive a- I.:11Iustria1 Welfare
Commission on ,hi:11 there ia a woman member provided in
the statut4J.
The -,,/ork of the Industrial Aelfare ComA.ssion
is to fix Animum wages and control the hours of labor in
213
those industries not under the Eight Hour Law, and to
provide for the comfort, heaLth and safety of women employeeS
in the State.
We have a groat many departments T:;orking on the
There has been no difficulty between
industrial pr ,gram.
our Jepartments, because we are a harmonious fizaily, bu.L I
do feel t.;;Lt the situation as in Pennsylvania ..z.nd also in
Wisconsin ie more ideal than it is when there are so many
different departments.
My hope is that in the State of
California we will have an industrial comA.ssion.
We do
not stop with women as inspectors, but they should be
oommissioned as well.
Miss Van Kleek:
(Applause.)
Is there any further discussion on
this L)otnt?
mr, simonds:
(Vermont:)
The only difficulty we have
experienced has been te get appropriations to put our
law enforcement under a special war maaaure passed at the
last s-Jsion.
I IS
to institute a woman's
Iliss Van Kleek:
secure authority from the Governor
sion.
We are glad that woren's Avisions
are so popular.
Is there Etny further contribution?
Mrs. Cx, vould
214
you say anything about Indiana?
Mrs. Cox:
(I1A.ana):
little premature.
I really think it might be a
We have laid the foundatior. and
Van Klelk:
n
Yrs. Cox:
You are going to have it?
No, I cannot say that, except that women
generally, when they go after things, get them.
Further
than that, I cannot say that we are going to have it.
However, the Governor of tio State of Indiana is working
o. the needed legislation.
The statute provides the exact
number -f factory inspectors, and all those places were
filled whei the emergency in the women's situation care up,
an,. of course it would not do at all to adk one of the
gentlemen holding those positions to vacate.
Therefore
the Governor of the State of Indiana declared an emergency,
and was sustained by the Attorney General of the Stlte and
appointed a women t-) whom should be referred problems rela—
tive to women and children in industry.
He pays that woman
from the contingent fund, and she is out in the fi31d
trying to prepare herself somTahat as an expert witness
before lecislative committes.
>
Miss Van Kleek:
We wish her success.
testimony that you are
ivin
us for Indiana.
That is good
215
Is there anything furthr on this aubject?
If not,
I think we are ready to hear the discussion of night work.
Mr. Mulready, may we hear from Massachusettsl
Mr. MUlready:
(Massachu3etts0
Some speaker
said yesterday that certain thins rer.:; to be taken for
granted, so I a6sume that it is taken for
rantad that
Massachusetts has a woman's jivision (laughter), because
if apointment of insplotors and recognition of women on
the board forms a woman's Aivision, then we have a most
excellent division.
We have a vcry excellent woman c)! our
The law provides that we &all have at le:1st four
women inspectors, and our 2oard, J1der the influence. of
that good woman, has appoint d nine s rather than four
women int;poctors, and among our best workers are our women
inspectors.
T a- not sure but what it would be an improve—
ment if one of thole
women inspectors
Wa8
4asignated as the
chief; and I am mire I will go home with that suggestion,
looause if that will relieve the Commi5siofisr of Labor of
a little of his
the Comissioner will be glad to
be relieved.
Yesterday, when I invited myself to speak here this
216
morning, I ws very much troubled.
I was troubld, in the
first place, with the law that was expounded to us, and I
could see trouble ahad for ma if that
a
pod law.
At the beginning of the war I askd our Attorney
General for an opinion upon our status as a state board of
labor and industry.
He oave
U3
aa opinion tat where
plants were run by the Government, like o4 areanal or a navy
yard, or plants of that kind, our state law would not aPP151
nor would it apply on contracts when the entire plant was
taken over by the Government, but---and that is the point
that was not touched yesterday, I think---if it was found
that in a given plant part of the vork 14i3 Government
work, and part commercial work, our law did apply to both
kinds of work.
Now, with the explanation of the Chairman this norning
and with that opinion of our own Attorney General I am
glad to rest that just where the presiding officer suggested that we do rest, and that destroy3d my desire to speak,
.almost.
But I did want to speak about the Massachusetts idea
on the question of emerLe,cy.
If you stop to think, friends, after all the best
1
217
states are last in getting exemptions.
One gentleman
here yesterday morning told us that in his state, for
instance, it is not a crime to work children eleven hours
a day.
What would he want an exemption for?
Surely,
he has gone the limit with his children or the children
of that state.
So that really the rore drastic, the
more stringent the law, the more necessity for doing something toward exemption, if exemptions are at all necessary.
And are they?
they are.
Every one that I have heard speak says
Even the military gentleman who was here
yesterday made an exception, and everybody with whom I
talked says that something must be done, when our very
excellent pr siding officer this morning pointed to the
fact that we are only at the beginning of it.
In ns3achusetts we have a reputation of being very
stringent in labor legislation.
Every requirement, so
far as T rocall it, that the Governmet now asks other
states to adopt, has been adopted and been in force in
Massachusetts for a long, long while—eight hours for the
children.
We have ten hours
or the women, fifty-faur in
a week, and all that sort of thing.
requirements are in force.
So that all those
218
I was speaking one day on this subject in a
gathering of labor compdosioners, and some criticism was
made of our system which I want to explain to you.
Finally one man, more strenuous than thc others, was
asked the question vhat he would do under certain circum—
stances which had been described.
Finally, forcd to an
answer, he said, %ell, I suppose under thse circumstances
I would be obliged to look the other way.'
to looking the other way an
If we get
permitting violations, that will
do us more serious damage than if we by 1:ai crate an
agency for meeting a situat cn which must come.
..ax a great deal nowadays about the manpower.
We 11,
would like to change it to 'human power".
I
If the men
go across to fight, and if they start over there tot ether,
those of us who are left at home, men and women, have got
to face the situation
it is, by some plan or other,
either Federal or state.
Now, you will recall that sway back early in the war,
early in the entrance into the war by oux country, word was
sent out from Washington-- I kdow somebody will say slay
whom"?
and I cannot anawel, but I think it was by the
Council of National Defense---to every Governor of every
219
state in tha Union, that thnse must be a power delegated
to wuspand those labor laws that would 1)rovz burdensome in
time of wax.
Governor.
A labor
an in
The power was to be delagatd to the
Down in Massachusetta we flc nc,t like that.
our
state listein
t
re todJ,", the father
of us all in labor legislation, said no; that mould be a
dangerous thiag.
Do not misunderstand ml.
We have one
of the best Governors in all this country, the war Governor,
can
Gov._!rnor 1.1cOull of lassachusette, a zood man; and he oe
trust c1 with thul duty perh,lps as nell as any other man we
kilow in offioial life.
But we said,"No; that is a
dan6crous propogtion .
C7..r.1:)r with all the great
many things that are calling for action on his part could
1-)osibly give the 4;4-ttentIon to that that aught to be Liven
to so important a zattor."
$o we met in oof.JrezIce.
Our public saaty committee
.
called thirty or forty oZ Cho .lading
labor L,en of the
state in a confJrence an
thin,?
said, "Low will we arranv this
Something has ot to be done.
What Ethan
do
about it?"
Our Massacusetts law attempted to define emeruenoies,
or, as was well said yesterday, everybody has to realize
220
in the beginning
hat certain emergencis are bound to
occ,r, but our law did not vite fit the existinc situation.
Well, we met, And an a r17:sultof the deliberations a
law was proposed to the legislature:.
In fact, I want
to say that a 10117 lot 7ov,,
: rning the powers of the
Governor in the better defan3e of the Commonwealth was
enactd, and int* that law for the better defen3e of the
0,
113Tonwealth appeared the section which relat.14. to the
bject under discussion.
Vay I troubf°11-1,A by reading the law, but by calling
your atte tior to one or two of the pro7isions?
In the first place, a lommission iuls to be avointed
conaisting of four rerbers, and thii Commissior of Labor
was mad4 ex offi'Ao the ChairTan of that Ocy:Iiillission.
Our
people 'rev) very, very fortunate in seo.arinf2; for that
()omission bwo of Che
1Willian
ImInufacturars of Illasuachusetts,
Bt1t13r, head of me of the biggast cotton
i7,Justri7!9 in Macsachusette, a lawyer, ap extpreoijent
of the Mascachucetts State ScncAe, e man
every way a
great hig man, who eaid to re ilhen I invited him to
e?rve c)
the CovAssion ttuA he could not lossibly find the
tiSe to clo it; but when he. ome to one meeting alai saw
221
the great possibilities of the position he said, "I am
with you to ti-h) end."
The other
was Mr.
Coonly, now a
member of the Fleet Corporation, stolen away from us
by the United States Government, one of the best men in
Massachusetts.
I often said to him in our association
on the Comfdssion that if h
was not a capitalist, if he
was not a big business man, he would be a splendid social
worker.
He had the social vision in all his work.
had aeorge F.
We
pr2si:ent of the Massachusetts
branch of the Federation of Labor.
Then se thought that the Commission ought to have a
woman, and so we chose
Miss Meech, a woman who for
fifteen years has been connected with Ginn
a
Company.
It was said in the beginning that the Commission of Lab—
or was pretty well handicapped between those two opposing
forces.
Let me say to the ladies and gentlemen, those
of you wto are studying our cooperation, that those predic—
tions did not prove true; and in the hundreds of cases v;e
have listened to there never has been a division when it
came to the final vote.
There have been times whan we did
not quite agree, but there never has been a division of
vote.
Our note has been unanimous.
222
Now the commission is formed, and the law provides:
"Any employer of labor may make application to the
state board of labor and industries or to the commission
cratd by clause A of this section, settin
forth that a
law or laws of the CommonWealth," etc., fiffectin6 condi—
tions of labor or interfarinL; :ith the prosecution of
work which suTh employer is doing or is about to do, ..hich
work is reciuird by an emergency arising out of the
existing state of war, and asking that a permit be granted
to him suspending the operation of said law or laws, or any
prt thereof, as applicable to his work or
Eitablishment,
the committee will convene and give a hearing upon ouch
application as soon as possible after the receipt of the
application."
Now, t very wise provision was placed in the law which
called for, at the hearing, representatives of interested
psirties.
At the beginning we went to the division of
labor and
a said, "Give us a force of ten men and woman
who will attend every weekly meeting of our commission and
listen to the evidence that is submitted and, through
their affiliated or7anizations, object to anything that
ve ,Irs attempting to do or thinking of doing."
We said
223
to every woman'a organizatio4, "Choose a comMittee of two
or three who will attend our meetings, be welcome there and
welcome to ask questions or offer sugvstions."
We went to
all the child welfare workers and in like manner to all
the interested organizations.
, think, without referriniY; to
It 13 easy to see,
almost, thAt while we should
not have secredy in our deliberations, we must have
privacy, and so the doors ara not open to the public,
but they are open to thaae peop13 who are selected entire—
ly independently of the ComAssion holding the hearing.
Then a furthr provision was m.:;.de that in caaes of
emergenoy the Commissioner of Labor raI6ht .;leapnt a prmit,
and that per.AA would expire automatically in 72 hours.
Then the.entire office force of the Department of Labor was
placed at the disposal of this Commission.
We have the
machine created.
Somebody said yesterday that it would be wrong to
grant every petition that came up.
We have had 369 applications.
permits to 72.
Yau will notice tha
g-
We have &ranted
rhat dOJEJ not mean that all the others
I•' e log.tn denied; but, again, as was suggested yesterday in
4.
224
somebody's plant, we talked with the people; we ougsc t2d thkA possibly they might ar7range it
some oth3r way
than by a permit, and in that way we rducad'the number.
We Lran'td, however, 184 prmits.
While ix3 hLd a large
number of applications for niGht employment, we
zianted but
nint; niL;ht employment certificates, and in tlioge cases many
of them' rare but for a very brief period, a week, or when
somtl, such emervno
week or tan days.
came up it would ,)e (Tranted for a
-Only one that I now roo..11 is in existenoe
present moment.
We had 5l vplioations for the susp,3nsion of the law
reordinL the working cf children.
rhatever plan about
woman workinG may be had, aH; atik and women yAll
me that there ouint not to be any pormits
:Lgree
grant;d for the overtiwe t;corking of children; and.
our case, while the law permits As to 60 it, we have
steadfastly stuok to that policy that we rould not under
aL; oircumstancs 'rant the richt for crildren to work overtime.
So in our state we have never :ranted that permit.
(Applause).
The Commission has :,rant'd 40 s;,ecial permits for
.lays.
II
=325
:Tow, where do we get aur information?
avilabl
source.
From .?.-very
If I was talking in New York instead
of in 7ashinLton I would say that we have had quit,3 a bit
ns information from Tashingtcn, just a
of troublo
little bit) .ud in some oases we have found that the
officiAls th .mseives.dil Not agree among themaelves as to
Nhat thay rNaly wantad.
Te have been commended by the
Seratary of Tax in a personal letter for the work we ware
trying to do, and we have in every way been given close
cooperation.
;Aay I speak of one institution.
re have an institution
'manufacturing eAo:Lusively . u.nitions in Massadhuoatts.
Everybody who com,;'s to 7assaohuatts wants to see that
institution, and F3) we have
and thay call her
youn
culJe up there,
.7:JlreEldy's Lirl, and everybody
thc,t wants to go is ohown around by
. 71.1readylo cjirl
in the United Stated Cartridge Company.
17,00 people.
bout
Two—thirds of them are woren and girls.
They arca L;oiiIL: to omploy 20,000; and. th
stop---a c.tontinual grind, Jay
holidays..
They employ
mJohines never
niEht and Sundays
They aro dal the tine [:rindinc.
manuf,toturind 3,500,000 oaxtridgls a day.
and
They are
They are going
1,00 7TTrA em Inq Mole am '2.197
amid callo.1.97 em TTlun
itt12141 OTAVU noS Er' ler; sr lenc UM0p Matil
400U7 TrF sm
pu- cearioli anoA c.,117_L o ‘11r.
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11177
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LEC.j,
228
with twenty—four inspectors.
That is too much.
I ';:as speaking one time before a comrAttee of the
Lislature, and one member of the committee said, "Don't
you think that an inspector aught to make at least four
inspections a day?"
sent one of our
I said, "That depends.
17 know I
TIspectors into a plant in Massachusetts,
and he worked continually and very diligently, and it took
two weeks to rake the ivestigation, and then it
was not quite complete.
So that r?.11y we cannot make
inspections as you sould make pies---ju3t by getting to—
cetber the proper materials
makinE them.'
think we confuse some timas the question of
ausi,ending a law „Ind rescinding a law.
say le break the law.
Soma -people
It has been very aptly said by
one of :he inembers of our commission that 48 bend the law
that, j- _ike a
ood stick which is bent, it COM38 back
riht where it started from as soon as the emergency
Aisapp2ars.
We - lever grant a permit for more than 60 days.
We
extend the pormit after that time, but it comas back to
us for r!-,-11arinE; and r—investigation before it is ex—
t.nded, nikin
a1,riad in rhih to '-;erk out ih
problem.
229
A ver
May I evak of one other case?
big institu—
tion in Massaohusetts---and I think this presiding, oilioer
knows the facts in that oase---whereihey are manufaoturing
the Brownin6 ;:u-ri, a very ir;ortalt part of t)- overtime work, and we invastigated it.
Lt 111
warp 44atd.
say,
too, that ve have a special invcsti&A.er who atenas to
every application, go?s to the plant, loka into the
acessities and does everythin
prelininary tothe hearing.
I_ this ease she wont to that plant and rturned and made
the suggestior that it
a real emergenv
a more a laok of mala.gement than
but neverthe.:ess if the parmit wcAl not
,:irant:Ai there would be a delay in the Je1iv3ry oi the
Broarli
t;un, and that we could not permit under any cir—
cumstanoes.
So we said, wWell, 77e will Give you a permit
for thirty days.
We will i-;end
them Investigate it."
Ark
or
to 77,,xhinLton and LA
thy; did.
They sent an in
spector there, an cxpert engineer, to determin
the truth of
what we sugvsted, and it was found that it was a really
and truly case of lack of manavmarit more than one of real
war emergenoy.
Now, may I say one word more?
I know that we are
somewhat unique in the history of the labor movement in the
Uhlitd States, but let me say, with all dua humility, that
it is not the, first time in the history of this country thaI
Massachusetts has taken the lead.
Miss Van Kleek:
(Laughter and applause.)
Nov, we want to have an absolutely
frce disaussion of this question.
I am not going to
call on tha spakere, but I hope you will all take part.
I knob that there are a number of st:..ts that have been
trating this problem as a matter of law, arj that there ara
otl,er stat ,!..s which have no law on the subject.
7rs. Semi4e:
(Penneylvania:)
May we ask Mr.
gulready to give us a statemTnt, if possible, as to the
,roportion of exemptions that affect women?
gr, i. lr ady:
not quito every ono.
(Massachusetts):
7early every one;
A fw affect min only.
Lut, ycu
1 It is the woman question that interferes with the
happinss of the manufacturers.
In Massachusetts we viere building the great big
camp buildings and everything that went with them, and they
said they were working on what they called an eiOlt—huur
basis.
Ar
it—hour basis, as I understand it, is that
tLy work eiht hours for the ordinary wages, and then they
*Ipbla
he pay for all .the number of hours that they want
231
, mr: ov()rtine, and aone of them - ere TrAting great big
to :
Froces, but they were rf.i.isin
,fiyy by
anouJA :or :t man to work.
argument that eight hours wL-.8 lon
2.dr Eishlvay Commission of
"ihich
otte
tha ton of Ayer, wher
as
it
Cain .7ith our
assachus,!tts
WAO
building
neonssary, to get from
, td, tc the camp
Lh ., town was loc”.
and around tho territory there.
two ird men working there.
We had a hundrld or
'index our laws man employed
'4A1;t11c work oxe not allowd to work over A.::;ht hours a
, ..11/ more hours,
not mind about workin-,
They
but, Lhey dia inaist that they xerl :Mang to have the same
];0.y as
v 3OuL
at riht over the fence in the camp,
tey aloanAoled the poor lontrActor
tilt, poor StAte
of Masearuciatts out In tha street vith those awful daneraue
is
st.Jat crosings by two 7rA1roads.
Wo ;rant
a prmit for that contractor to work nen over
to work, in ordzr that they might
giA ti
C
wr
Ifieses us the Ucited State
other ai,,e of the fence.
Government had
That ,-.49 atretchino a point
, but I think it ,:E1 )1atce. , y an
erLenei of the war.
i:04, in 0.,Is 3r to Mrs. Semplele qu::stio;., of course
232
nearly every case is one involving women, because we
have not granted any permit where children will be involcw
ved.
11r. Ilalabrecht:
in Wisconsin.
(Wisoonsin0
We had a siwilar r,qu3st
I suppose every state in the United States
had a similar rquest.
Fortunately, the Industrial Commis-
Edon had been created along the lines I have outlined.
-e have had several requests from employers, and I have
on -1 distinctly in mind.
The request came accompanied by
a captain of the mtia, rdpresenting the Federal Government, in whioh certain ordpanoe was declared to be of
vit3.1 importance to winning the war, and unless they could
workwvien during the night time they would be unable to get
out the particular part of
tracted for.
eSr4na
in the time con-
It was rather an unfortunate situation.
We handled the proposon a little differently from
what they did in Massachusetts.
is responsible in refereno
We think that the stvte
to admiristering state laws.
They suggested that the law interfereawith the national
program, and I answered both the employer and the captain
of ordtnance that p rhaps that was true, that it was an
emergency that required concession with reference to
4‘
233
working oonditt)n5, but that the Industrial ComFiis6ion of
Wisconsin's law was not passed for the purpose of passing
uron war emergencis, and that he should get his
certifioate from either the elouncil of National Defense or
the Ordnanoe departcrent of
ashington and he would have 1.1
difficulty .rith the ComrAssion Jhen the certificate
of mama necessity had been determined upon.
he 'iould do that.
months
Ile said
That was about three and a half
I have heard nothing further from him.
As a /Latter of state policy, I feel that that is a
saZer m,3thod of iTocelure.
We have a national program and
we also have a state program.
The state labor laws fnust
give way at any time under wise and judiulous advioe fr=
the Federal Government when the matter of military nec9ssity
deands it.
We are going to do everything that is in
aur power, and I know that that is true of ?very state
here, to help win this war, but we must first know that it
a military necessity.
fS r more than he olualit to.
A contractor may have oontraoted 1
If they have a feeling in the
state that all they have to do is to show that they have
a big contract on hand and that it is necessary to abuse
the state labor laws to put it over, it may be a difficult
234
thing to convince the Industriaj Commission of Wisconsin
that it is true, but it is for the Federal n-overnment to
say, it seems to me, as to whether or not that particular
faotory with its product ought to be allowed to encroach upon
the state labor laws in or or to put out its product.
I thank you.
iss Van Xleek:
Let us emphasize that by saying it
is t-e ST.:retary of Wax who must declare an araer6enoy in
the Wax .:partmant, and not a captain or a - ieutenant who
represe.ats the War Department in the fild.
We had an illustration the other day cf a very large
plant• that was employing
law.
omen at night in defiance of the
As soon as that was discovered the plant replied
that it had the permission of Lieut. Smith!
It is my view that there can be absolut.:14 no successful administration oi any such plant unles it is perfectly clear that the national emergenoy can be det rmined
Only by the Secretary of Wax or the secrotaxy of the
the head of the contracting department of e,,lergeLioy production.
It is the head of the oontractia6 dapartant,
and not the Council of :Jational Dens, IA this instance.
Mr. gulready:
Let me say that it is true that it
235
ought to be.
That is the pr,lotioe, is it not, in
Uiss Van Kleek:
Mas3achusetts?
Milready:
It is the practioa if we lando that;,
but here is my point on that:
I think the simple estabiishp-
ment of the emerge cy is the easiest part of it.
We
were led astray jr the beginning bcau3e we were not used
to associating with military gentlemen.
When a man came to
see us with full uniform and with tones we did not under—
stand, we sail, of course, the army says we must do this.
We learned after awhile that tnat was not rifat.
is not the most important part after the emergency
is aoknowledgA
It may be that conditions in a given
factory may be quite bearatle for six or seven or eight
hours a '71,4y in the day timc.
That is our real job, and
that, I think, must be done, it neome
and the United States cooperating.
may issue certain specified things.
the states
The Selretary of War
Mini, urn?
But I would like to reach tows'.. -1 the maximum.
Sure.
We have a
plant running in Massachusetts where the ciris only .v:ork
five hours a night and where thy 3et nine hours' pay
for working five hours.
ii
236
That is another thing that has been mentioned here.
It in not altogether a question of multiplying girls;
it is a question in many instances of multiplying machines.
There has been a great difficulty in getting machines,
ana consequentDy the men ars foroW to do something.
Somebody said hare 1,-..:8terday taut possibly we could
aoms of Lhe orlilra away and transfer them to some other
cor.rnIhat did nct have enough.
hcw that would work?
Have you stiNho think
I do not know the gentleman, and so
it ia very impersonal* but if the -7-;entleman who eloke here
yesterday about working eleven hour
for children would take
the product that ought to be manufactured u -xler better
caditions than that and transfer it into that state from
a otate where they have an eight-hour law---I don't think I
would go too fax in transferring orders.
Besids that, and
1Jerhapa norit important than that, is the fact that these
600ds are needed lcw, and most of them are machine-made
Loods, and if you ni;.d
r4here ycu rould land.
a transfer you would_ not know
Let us not preacal the doctrine of
transfer too stron ly---at least, that would be My suggestion; buL IA us make the men who are doiiv things come
to our ideas of how the things aught to be done.
Make the*
237
meet conditions so far as you can.
aiss Van Kleek:
Let me point out with reference
to your last point, that the transfer of pro6Lucts doF:s not
of course mean a transfer to a state which hii,o lower
stL,
4.ndar0s, but it is certainly clear that eome times a
plant is ha,ndling more than it has a right to, but there are
frequently pointed out a number in the same state where
there mi,c;ht ba a lossibility of transfer.
.r. Gerrisn:
(New York):
We investigated some 400
contra:As for tbe War Department a couple of months ago,
=id I know at one tims, when a certain produot that was very
easential for the soldiers
at the frOnt was very short, one
of the leading sections of our otate tn manufacturin
that
i- roduct offered the Ta:c Deprtment that they would produoe
20 per cent of that product to relivo that eituatio.:.
The facts were that there were aona of that )roduot
being made in that looality.
We found vcry early in our
1.11r:stigation that the contraote were L;ivan aut
in no
proportion to tha oapaoity of Lh3 /,1,int; lni that is what
has mada tha smarganoy in ma-ly iilstazio.
There is no
neessity for giving a man a .1.)ntraot which is tan times
greater than he has any cap, ity to fill.
That is where
238
most of
eIficulty has come from.
T wish to h,?ar thc ChvArman speak about the basis for
the r -Atriction of nizht work; that is, tho system and
tha causes of it have be'm known to the people tn the
labor movele:It for y .- ;axs.
That is the theory upon
which the labor people have opposea the nibt v:ork.
A y-
T):7)..1y nho ever vvitked ni0It work knors triFIA they cannot be
effeqt And work night work, and I hop,7; that this wax
lt
will
,-,01()Cy ca.n
thc
nuirt.otur17's of this country
more t‘an e:i2ht hours
anei i! scne .,.ustries it shoula be
be efficient,
thm ei7ht.
There is yrobably some jmprovement in the conditions.
rontraots ''() out ,lith no rczard to the capacity of the
71.1
plant, and surely this city has been visite.f. by the fellow
cciltract.
I came into this city on the train,
at least
juat ei2;ht 'filen who were zcinTL: from one
waxo
*.;ar
.110
and in loAin,
h3ro and wax,.)
Loly
,4
•
vcry bf_ttrly that every—
thc FAtcViAi had oonLractu buL
leople in thei2:
I 6ailiod all this :nfomaidion by 3itting in the
smoker talkinL; to tham.
It opened up a thoujit in ry
inind t;104 if t:L—t ia so, and thse men ware in a line
:jht be some
of busiilas3 Liat ia vary nese:Itial, there mi,
1
239
relief, and it would be far bett..r to out down the contrd.ots of some of those people and give them around a
little Lit,
Kearns:
(Ohio):
In that
I just want to
say that we have had th7, same trouble in Ohio.
Recently
not
we have gm* so many requests for exemptions, but a. year
ago we had several requests, and we fourd -upon investiation by the Criaittee on industrial Relations appointed
by the 'optional Council of Defense, composed of two manufacturers and two representatives of labor, Lpon their
inTestigation that that very condon existe,d; that contra:As had been given out to some plants
beyonj their
capacity, and thoy were not able tc get the soods out on
ochidulu
The sugestion was made to th.a:n at that
time that some of it be sublet to some other establishment& and plants in their immediate vicinity t'rtat were
able to do a part of the work,
I think that now the new draft
rapidly from industry and we
Arlv man n,ore
goin7 to be besiet:ed
with raciusts for exemptions from all the varixts lines,
and I think the only solution for it is the on,1 saggested
here, that th4 Federal Government through the F13oratary
240
of Tax should iasue these permits, but only after proper
been made through the cooperation of the
State Department, whether it is an industrial commission
or the ComfAcsioner of TAbor, or whatever it may be.
M.10 Van Kleek:
lEy; would the prohibition of niL;ht
ot Ohio?
oertificat
;:rk exe.21:t
Prohitrition of night work?
Kearns:
Telt
very
materially, bccause under °lir 1;x th.:-,r.-; in no prohibition
of
•.iht work except for womn Iridor 18.
-isa Van Kleek:
b!3?
71?1,1t (Ao you thiW4
eff,3ct
Do 7ou tbink thA the InC_t'Art1.1 ftmniiscior. would
welcS me
t In
Vlink the
. Kimrns:
on to its du_tioni?
a.
./;'4
Do you
state would be L:ood?
Do
tLin
the effot
7,11oll an
orJer would be ccod?
Kle?k:
arns:
Yes.
T 701Ad
lik3 to oco
lone, but I
imaine acmAhinc alcnc that lir3 v1.11 have to be ione.
7.iss Van Klce;::
I .vresum . you have
Yeu have no niE;ht work law in Ohio;
Loir.
or to some •extnt?
7earno:
Van Yl--k:
What I am ,e)ipting at is.I.
241
p rink ef view of Ohio would -Lha.t be a gain in labor
lesialation or the reverse to have established the control i
hich the Induetrial Commission would share?
It would be a gain in labor leEislation
Mr. reams:
1.n z vay, tecuse ne ive nG laws; ,rohibitiag it at this time.
Of course we woule. like vf.n.7- ru---or
is ih:J Mt° rould like very
Ah---t; prohibit night work;
113 vozeil-1r Lo du it at this
t
but whethc:r or qot
y1-Jersona1 opinion
-tL(p
3--:t
°Arir3 TTII 1C11k:
':,"41e
a3w -t -IAt it could be of aa7..ii4-
3
o you j,n efforts later to
prohibit In of 1-,1;
I tA.z1
ie -xxla weloomn it for the
p tp u.
r9Loon Ut it vticAlld be a L
(7(.1!
rr. Lynch:
-that the discussion
has fire,13y =Ile back zr,
yor -utline ,Jere,
tcallee it seem° to r
the otates.
I via the.t
pass
LegiAlLture v.ot
would adt.f..1,ictelc
.
the othez.
-uhii.
ar,
that intersts
w tat the
J.hLL1 -pkcir.t
lav a
arfL,i ti
ci
ig
rJomisuion that
tner tne one nor
le not done when
the Legislature meets, pz:ople will bc,' ‘11.ce advocating a
242
suspension of all of the labor laws that affect the
working of iomen in production, and they axe able to
point to Massachusetts which has granted a f—mber of
variations ender which women evidently work at night.
No matter whether they were justified or whether they were
not, that rrill not be any evidence at ell.
The eimple fact
tiet they have granted them adLi that wofficn are working in
Massachusetts and Ohio has no law prohieiting women working
IS sufficient
It is hard going or us who are interested
at ni -MA.
in the preservation of the law.
N3W,
We
must take into consideration the attitude
of the woman who works, the attitude which she hews toward
this
Licotion of employment at night, bece.uee that is also
going to be in evidence and it is going to be used with
some force and effect.
bave recently interviewed a number of women in
not
New York State who are wcrking all night/in factories and
establishments over which the labor law has jurisdiction,
but in hot l3 ind in other employnents not governed by the
labor law, and I find that thse women tall me that they
prefer the shift from elerre
to seven o'clock in the
morning, that they would rather work during those hours
243
than durirk; any other hours of the day.
3;3 of thcs, rana..rs of one of ,he 1
in
he state
cst factories
d we that they could fill that shift
three times over while they are obtainiAL; 10ri to ;. rork
the other two ilhifts.
That is the point of liew of the wimen who work, and
it ia aaaiiy understood, of course, because if she
domstio duties to k!rform it
rfca*m those duties.
she has the hours
as
ivas iei opportu:lity to
If she is desirous of entertainment
7Alich entertaiament (Lay be had,
an( she prefers that arrangement.
I think that there sicms to be rather a ralt.,ctlice
here to eAmit that the womeh .J.rk) Loin to be employed
in industries to a v_ry much L;a7Htater extent, and that
they are
to be xv.pld RI niht.
Ju3t as ,t3oon as
this draft bacomos operative tha demand for labor will
'oe aoso..lbtuted, and women are L;cing to work at night
whethr we who are tryini; to yJr3veLt it and understand its
dangers likc! it or not.
Mat HitwItion 16 going to
confront uo, and it is the part of wisdom to try to meet
it nou.
Personally, I beA.ave tho.t the 1
- )roposition that
you hay,: put forth here,Alich seems to have been well
244
thoursht out, is the proposition which in thi, and 7ill r:ault
in se.virv:; thz. labor laws and the statutes that now prohibit
th:li employment of women at night,
to those states that have not
and will be of assistance
et enacted laws prohibiting
tho em.A.oyment of women at night, which p,3rmit women to
work in some instances without any rstriction at al
be of Lreat assistance to those Eses, both during
It
the war and especially after the war.
There are two other propositions in connection with
thjt that I think are important.
th6 pay.
One of them relates to
I do not know what the rederal Government
can do t,nder this arrangement in establishing stancards
in
80
fax as par is coRoerned.
I said a few moments ao that I know of no greater
fraud than the fraud called equal pay for equal work-alvvays at the decision of the employer who determines whether the woman has done an equal amount of work compared with
Lhe vIn who formerly hold that position, and of course, in
the great majority of cases, det;:rminos it negatively and
advances *km arzumetsto
ustain his contention.
:V proposition is th.11 the woman who takAl the place
of a man should have the same pay that the man got for
245
that job, and ii it is increased during th) time
she holds it, ahe ahuuld receive the hir?;her r to of
It is uj. to the employer to obtain the woman
ay.
who can do that work, the sane as he obtained the man to
do it.
It is not a question of his being permitted
to play the alleed frailti:,:s of the
ntier sex up
as an argument for the paymont of a lower wage.
Then there is another fraud that
Loing around
that is even worse, I think, tLaat, t:at equal p
wages assertion.
lOr equal
That is the b -sio *ht-hcur day.
There is a proposition that is -7orked overtime.
(Laughter).
People have been lad to believe that we
J:Lre .stablishing the eisht-hour lay 1-'i this country, when,
as a matter of faot, we are doing nothinc, of the kind.
Tnere
ave been strikes in those planta by wile earners
for the privilege of working overtime, excited by the
fact that there has been held aut to another section In
that same factory or ship yard or whatever it may be
extra wages for working overtime, and thn result is we
have been working ten and twelve hours a lay instead of
The basic eijit-hour day is 3t4ly a wa,e proposition, and
nothin:, )18e, a proposition on which to oase wages; and we
246
thin ascertion that
on are now able to earn enough
in four dayn so that they can live for thr-3e days.
That io :.(;,vanc ,A as an argument afj;ainst these higher
I eml time wonder whether it is al quostion of
fatigue tLt enters ther3 :. ).5r reason u,
fact that
men are permittEA to York 12 houra a (lily to earn these
high wags rather than workinE a rational ad rertsonable
n'6mbor of hours
pavan.
day :or six dayu and 1)osaibly for
I trust that some way
thingo
an "le fount so that these
not be permitted to ore.%) in.
Wa 11,tve in 73w York laws
a,k1 aAildren.
or the protection of women
I do not know that men need so much
protection in thsestrenuous Unas ao woman and children do,
baoauae •4omon are subjact to axvioitation, and they must be
uonsidar,Dd separately, notwithstandin6 the opinion of the!,
Chaiman today.
Woman will not oraniscs and protect
themselves, yet their introduction into injuatry is ijt.tIr
than we have ever had before, and it may rsult in their
organization and union and their ability, t ---71, to crotect
Ult;msalves.
through .
But our exprienoe oho,
.
.11 of my
connection with organized labor---an,L that is quite a few
L47
years---tht rIcy do not organize and that they are u1;rot-vt th.mselves and that they are only pro-
rle
tected in those unions of longstanding where the
majority of the membership is male and the iGale memberohip 1-,rotacts the female me-nbership.
So they must be given special consideratio
Ilay :utast be suarded from
and
2xpioitatiOn oy 1-:eople who will
0:41oit them and do it for reasons of patriotism---and
this cry of roman cminc to th4saue of the country, and
all that, we know, we who a.re v
:ainst this every day,
a,
tht, tll:cy are coming to the rescue of the pock t book of
the man vho is making that cry,,Pmd for no other reason
than hie pocket book.
hcwe s3n3 ccnsideration of this
I hci:e
7,-; York as a state protects the women
u.;..j ;ct.
in ir.J.uilt,
the
otori,:,...3 and mercantile
etablishments.
r‘
I want to see those laws maintain.., but I ar1 doubtLh,3y sill A maintained if the Lk;islature is in
a
cdsitioa to act in Januczy
nd Februry and :Tarch, and
e
have lassachusett's exar4le and c--;e or to others, and four
sta.t
:i.ddition to them.
If ve once weaken and take the
laws off the statute books, then we are g(Jing to have a hard
248
time indeed to p-t tham back there after the wax er,s.
would rather see them remain there and see the Federal
Govr.irnment assume charge of this situation,
grant these
permits, work any eitht hours during the twenty-four, employ
women under regusts made by the Federal Governmmt or the
proper aEenoi2s, and to attach to the permit "For the
ipriod of the wax only or for such 1.1gth of time there-.
after pz maw be necssary to rsto::e preuar conditions."
Tf that can be worked out---and I shoulJ think it could
on the .ysis
has been explained here---I think that
the agency that should assume the responsibility will
assume it
aad
t-rolt the raGposibiliti .:4/1d. the permits will
tgrm'.nate at th3 conclusion of the war or within a reasonable tima theraafte2, 3.nd it will 1):3 an inoontive
and enooragement to the progressiv.: people of the states
that have not yet secured thase laws A;rotectinL: women and
children, and especially the ptohibon of night work, and
it will assist the states that have done it to 1111.14win
their laws on the statute books and they can enforce their
laws as they did prior to -the war, shortly after the conclusion of hostilities.
this.
(Applause.)
I know t1iat I am in favor of
249
Miss Van Kleek:
I am esp cially zlad that Mr. Lynch
brought up the subj3ct, because it a p rt of the pro,-)osed
plan that the issuance of anym rtificate -Till be absolutely
dependent upon full compliance with state labor laws and
with tha standards of the Federal Government, including the
principle of Ihe same pay for the same work, as Mr. Lynch
put it.
So that that would be absolutely a pre-
requisite to the granting of the certcate and a prerquisite to the continuance of the certificate, that
those principles dhould be enforced.
nr. Casta/or:
(Michigan):
Madam Chairman,
ladies and gentlemen, it interested me very mudh to hear the
former speaker from New York.
I just want to state the
stand that the Commissioner of Michigan is taking in
regi-d to maintaining aur labor laws.
There was a certain manufaoturer who wazIted to work
his fmale help more thom 54 hours a week.
into our offioe he started
IS w many liberty bonds
When he came
na tell the Crris.clioner
had purchased,
owauc
he had
donated to the Red Cross and the War Service, and ao forth,
and tried to impress upon the Commissioner that his whole
thcuht, his energies, were put forth in winning the wax.
ctea
fits
Bwth
He wanted the privilege of working women sixty hours a
week, ten hurs a day.
The Commissioner said to him, "I can
That is all
see that your mind is set on winning the war.
you are figuring on at this time."
He said, "That is right.
I will do anything in py power to help the boys at the front."
The Coc.missioner said, "I will tall you what I will do: if
you will give the wol5n a profit on the iwrk that they do
over and above fifty-four hours a week, there will be no
complaint ftum my department."
Please excuse me for using
the remarks that this manufacturer used, but he said, "What
The Commissioner
the hell do you think I am in business for?"
said., *I know what you are in business for.
It is f or the
Almighty Dollar, and you have proven to ma that you are not
thinking so much about the boys across the sea.
you violating that fifty-four hour law
If I catch
I am going after you."
If the rational government takes that rower away from us,
I do not know what will become of the women in Michigan.
Miss VanKeeek: There is no idea of taking the power
away from you on any such proposition as that.
Have you a night-work pilibition in Michigan?
k.tr.
V:
Stator
is9 VanKlaak:
*hat is intended is to control all night
2
work.
No manufacturer working for the Federal government
you a
could employ women at night without getting through
permit from the Office of the Secretary of Xar.
We have to this extent, that no mae under
Mr. Castator:
18 oari be employed after 1U o'clock; but no female.
Miss VanKleek:
Mr. Ofiti.tor:
Miss IkinKleek:
Only
rder lb?
That is fur males.
Rive you ro night work law in Michig4n?
No, we have not other than that.
Mr. Castator:
The
question oawe up here as t. the Natiom:. go7ernrent ,,verruling
our State 14ws.
Miss VanKleek:
le are talking about the night work
prohibition, and not about your 9-hour law or your 54-hour
law in this connection.
rk):
Mr. Lynch (New Y,
The effect in Michigan, and I
suppose in a great many other States, would be that if this
were made effective women employed during the day in Michigan
in this same plant that employs women at night could only
work 48 hours.
qo it would be a reduction for the day work
in Afichign as wall as some control over the women who work
at night.
Mr. Oastator (Michigan):
It w.Juld be if you bad an
8O -hour shift.
Aiss KleaL:
That would be required as a prerequisite
3
Mr. Gardiner (Minnesota):
The question just occurred to
me, would th ere be any way of whacking the women that work
in one plant eight hours a day and who might possibly go to
another plant in another sectiun of the State and work on
the night shift in order to get a little extra money?
Mr. Lynch:
What do you do now to check that?
Why will
it be any more of a question ir. your State then than it is
Iow?
Ir. Gardiner:
Mr. Lynch:
You have the night veork law?
Ir. Gardiner:
'Jr. Lynch:
No.
They oan do it now,can they not?
Miss VanKleek:
mr. Lynch:
fie do not have that to contend with.
They can do it with out a law.
They oan work at night ir one plant and work
in the day time in another plant, if they are husky enough to
stand it.
not find
I think the plan would work to prevent it.
ery many women who are sturcly enough so that they can
work in two plants.
They might do tha,t in New Yurk State
where they ()Quid possibly work two shifts of women.
found
We do
`Ne have
men, however, who work on their day of rest in another
plant so they could still work seven days a week.
greed is not entirely on the part of the women.
So the
I do not
think we need co ncern our selves about that question.
4
.fiss Bzi,rbour:
Just before I left the Ptate of Virginia
as the state factory inspector, we had the sarLe identical
question that came up here.
We had tobacco manufacturers,
and they were at that time, if I am not mistaken, filling war
We had one plant work-
orders of tobacco, Government orders.
ing women ten hours per day, which is the State limit, and
the second working five hours at night.
I immediately pro-
ceeded to take the second employer into aJurt and had him
convictea for dolatinn of the ten-hour standard in Virginia
for the working of women.
I believe that woulci work in any
State, because the second employer is the man who violates
the standards anj not the first one.
That is according to
the court records in Virginia today.
Mr. Lynch (New York):
I am interested in the case just
mentioned by the lady from Virginia.
Might I ask whether
you first served notice on the second employer not to employ
these women, before filing your prosecution?
Miss Barbour:
V.I.. Lynch:
I will answer that, that I did not.
You got a sonviction?
Miss Barbour:
en4
I gut a conviction, and it is vl record
in Judge Critchfield's police court in the city of Richmond.
,
that.
Ir. Lynch:
I thought there was something unusual about
Judge Critchfield is the explanation.
I think the
5
prc.ceedings should be a.gainst the employee who does that,
because the employer lu3.y not know the facts.
ra,an C:abraslca):
Out in w)libraska the manufacturers
come time anc.1 ti:ne ..gain to appeal to the Governor or to the
Labor Commissioner
.A.ss Unit.leak:
Mr. Norman:
t, the Capitol-,:ebraska, has a night -hvrk law?
Yes; this was t(i suspend the law.
not ausi- ,:nd,:d anything in Nebraska.
and
A3
We have
They live up to the law
make the,n live ur to the law, t, help those r-ltates that
have not g t their laws, help them to get their laws at the
next session.
'Liss VanKleek: Have you had especially the pressure of
war 1:‘ri.d.luctic.,n in Nebra3ka at present, ',Ir. Norman?
r. ,:orman:
Yes, we have.
The employers come time and
time again to get it Er13:-ended, but .7ie have not given the
rivilege yet.
Vies VanKleek:
That 13 the whole aim, to prevent all
night work except where it is proved to be absolutely essential.
N6rman:
They get their war orders out, I
hink, ‘.41
oft
time, most (if then, without any difficulty, in Nebraska.
'Liss VanKleek:
called for.
Colonel Bryant, of New Jersey, has been
Fverybody in the audience wants to hear from
6
Colonel Fryant, may we hear from you?
Colonel Bryant (New Jersey):
I do not know that New
Jersey is partiai larly proud of its attitude on the luestion
of night work for women.
Repeated attempts have been made
to pass on this question in New Jersey aver since I have 'been
Commissioner of Labor, which is fourteen years, but the
influences have all been sufficiently strong to oppose the
passage of such an act.
The New Jersey law prohibits te
employment of women
more than tan ticurs a day, or a total of more than sixty
hours a week, which, in times of peace, is practically a
)tically none of the
-five hour week, because pra.
firms work 4.,n c',"turday afternoons.
We have followed the practice in New Jersey of charging
the several bureau heads with the enforcement of several protective features rather than specifying protective work for
women.
We have a bureau chief who is charged with the en-
forcement of our rules for lighting and sanitation, and it
Is his duty to see that all the factories in the State have
proper ventilation, healthful air to breathe, to see that
dust is removed from all processes, whether followed by
women or men, see that excessive heat is removed, and so
forth.
r,-T.e attempts to make the conditions healthfu.'. for the
operatives, whether male of female.
same system applies to the protection of machinery
and structural condons, which of course are equaily
necessary where the two sexes work.
In addition to that, we have an expert investigator
of. occupational diseases, who is a. woman a.nd who is particularly charged with makin„s- investigati.sna of various processes
to a,scartain danger points from the health standpoint, and
the sa are pa.ssed on to the inopeotc.irs e.nd enforced through
the various bureaus.
1:e also have thr,;(3 women inspectors, who have p articular
charge of the enforceraent of the human side (Jr the comfort
side of thsa fern,%le employees, such as dr3ssing xst.caria, retiring
rooms, lunch rooms, and other feature,s
viiss Van neck:
th.*
- t kind.
Mat would be the effect in New Jersey
if such a plan as Ae are discussing went through?
Colonel Bryant:
I think we would weic.60me anything of
that kind.
When we entered the war I wrote a.n open latter to the
emp14.0yers of the 7tate, calling attention to the fact that
laws protecting women andehildren and also laws protecting
males, should b3 enforced to the limit; that no restrictions
would be made, and pointing out tha exf.erience that had obtained
8
in England, particularly that there was no economic value in
the breaking down of those laws.
litre have insisted, practical-
ly without exception, on enforcement of our laws; but of
course it is a very much eeesier thing for us to insist on the
enforcement of the laws where we have no law prohibiting
who
night work which would confront the employers where working a
threel-ets,y shift.
Of course, New Jersey is entirely honeycombed with work
on munitions.
I imF.e.gine we have more munitions than any other
State in the Union.
Certainly in proportion to its size.
firm employs over thirty thousand people on munitions.
One
A
great many of thase firms are running three eight-hour shifts,
and. they are employing women, too, on some of the shifts.
It
is going to make it very difficult for them if that enforcement
is made, but, meanwhile, I would. be very glad to do it, and. I
agree with the Commissioner from New York that if there is
any breaking down of these regulations T
Quid rather see it
come from the Federal government and let them take the
reeponsibility of calling for the breaking down of any State
requirerre.nts and to put up any restricti.:ins upon the enforcing
power of the state.
Mr. Palyr.er (Prinsylvani.a):
It might be interesting for
those present to know that at a haring before the priorities
9
committee of the lar Industries Board Judge Parker was
not egpresaing his personal opinion exactly, but he called
attention to certain points that had been brought out which
deserve serious consideration.
They were as follows:
That if the emergency existed and the War Department
had agreed
to prove that theemeroncy
existed before the
permit would be granted, the law should be exteni ed or the
permit issued; that they give protection, as has been
brought out by Commissicner Lynch and others, to those
States that have a law; it also gave Pederal control over
those forty-one ctates that it has hen stated do not have
laws.
He further intimated that if it seemed necessary the
War Industries Board could extend its authority over those
plants that were not working on Government
work; that they
could extend it over the entire field if they found that
they wantad to so extend it.
That was the summary made by Judge Parker at his hearing
in Washington some few weeks ago.
be interested.
I thought perhaps you might
I feel at liberty to bring out this point,
as It was „:resented to that meeting some few weeks ago in
discussing the necessity of developing this National cooperative plan working through state agencies.
1U
Mrs. Semple (Pennsylvania):
I have the feeling that in
accordance with the suggestion of the Chairman
at the
opening of the meeting we have confined this discussion
entirely U.) the labor eipply, and yet, Madam Cnairman, if I
may now offer a difference of opiniun with you, I S.
nut
help feeling that it is more a question of labor supply in
I- ndling thi s whole subject, fur the employment of women, it
seems to me, particularly when it comes to night work, is a
social question that even as labor people we ought to keep in
Uind.
And. I am perfectly famar with the situation tha.t
Mr. Lynoh describes so accurately and strongly that women
themselves are not by any means always in sympathy with
iegislative safeg-aards.tha,t have bean thrown around them.
know that is true not only cuncerning night work, but the
safeguarding as wa look at it of their labor during the S.
and as labor officers we are at present facing an emergency
arising before us and we must sunamon to our aid in that
emergency the laws which some of us ara so fortunate a,s to
have.
Ne have the right and the ciuty of summoning to our
aiI the social foroes of the country and massing them as
far as possible to the support of those laws and tc.) the
furtherance of them, the extension of them for the future.
I
11
I quite agree with everything you ha7e said a.bout the
very great value of handling this present situation in such a
way as you have described it.
There has come to In e• also, a very strong conviction
concerning the employment of women, particularly at night,
who have home! duties and little children of their own; and
the social effect of that is something that we oustit
consiciar.
And there has giadually come to me this thought-- I do
not know that it is pra.oticable---have -wondered whether
ric, L
thio contractual obligation thera might be included
some provision concerning the employment uf women
with
li tile
of
family,
ildrsn, putting that control into tha hands of
the school boards of the school departments of the different
Elates.
Sut into tbe hands of the school department tu a
very large extent the question of di ild labor,
wondered whther the
and I have
thoueit underlying it may not be extended
so that if a woman with small ch ildron seeks employment at
night it fright not be granted on a system of certificate something like thL.se with reference to
e4lome
cf
children.
That perhaps seems a far cry and something rather visionary, and yet I think that somathing is needed there u5 th2
worked out.
social side and something possibly might be
Gernon (N.ew York):
I do not quite know whether your
program tends to restrict males as well as females inthe
plan that is proposed?
Miss VanKleek:
it does not; this is night work for
women.
Mr. Garnon:
That is jLst the point that I wanted to
In the matter of enforcement we are going to have
make.
considerable trouble.
For instance, a :..larx;; may have their
men on a l2-hota% basis, to shifte, and the women on three
shifts.
I can s9e considerable difficulty there.
Van
'figs Kleek:
Won't thi‘t tend
tiQ ?flok.urage
the employment
of men eight h:Airs?
Vr. Gernun:
That is one rea“,n that I favor the plan.
It might have that tendency, but
Aas v‘undering whether it
would not be far better to insist that before women were
put into the industry the op ration would have to be on an
ei@ht hour basis.
Leading to That, T have this in mind:
I do not believe
that an arrangement of this kind dtould be allowed unless the
plant was working with full capacity on Government work.
Thera ara far too many exemptions or requests made when the
in
Government work is only 4 small inciaent in some plants
13
the whole progam, so that they use a small contract, whidh
may be small in relation to their other business, as an
excuse f‘)r getting these exemptions.
Doctor Meeker:
a question.
I would like t
ask Commis4uner Lynch
He tyls made the proposal that we change the
formula "equal pay for equal work" to the "same pay for the
same work."
That is easy-- when it is easy; but that is the rare
exception.
Vhat is being done, of course, is the breaking
up of jobs into gragments and turning the fragments over to
women or to unskilled man.
Have you, Ir. Lynch, any solution
or any way of dealing with that situati-dn?
Take, for example, many medhanical operations were foralrly dune by skilled or relatively skilled men which are
being done now, or are to be done in the future, not by
one woman but by a half a dozen women.
icult question.
That is a very diff-
Have you had it to deal with?
Have you any
practical s lution to offer?
Mr. Lynch (New York):
My experience, Dr. Meeker, is
thd.t thoy are not being dune by half a dozen women.
we can bandle that situation when it arises.
I think
My experience
in investigating this 3ubject in New York °tate, so far as I
doing
was able to imestigate it, has been that the women are
the men's jobs.
There are some people here-- vise Qwartz, for
14
instance-- who were at the industrial conference in Syracuse
last December, and you were there.
I don't remember whether
you remember this particular speaker or not, but he boasted
that the women had replaced men in a particular factory and
were producing very much more than the man, and
vlihen
I asked
him if he raid them the same wages he said no, quite considerably lass in pr;roentage.
I have not found in New York
ntro-
late so far as the
duction of women in factories is. concerned, that they are
splitting up the job, but that the
caran has absolutely
he
taken the place of the man and she is :A- ing his work.
ought to hale his pay.
the
When they do subdivide and divide
Ac4rk, if it is necessary for the protection of women,
some way must he fuutu for handling that.
The bast way is
for the woman to organize and correct it themselves.
An
ounce of that kind of prevention is worth a pound of Federal
orState cure.
The women could set it for themselves if they
would organize, but the tendency has not been that way, and
Ne
have no reason to suspect that it will be in the future.
But I think that there can be some influem e or force brought
to bear in order that it can be corrected.
At least, we can
abandon the excressiun that has been misleading ever since
it has been used.
'15
Mr. Gernon (New York):
Following what ivir. Lynch has
stated, in every instance where it has come to our knowledge
where women have l'een su-bstituted for man, w e have made an
investigation just a 9 soon as it was possible to get there,
and. we find that in many instances woiraan uutola as the man in
production.
There ar?, some posons into which a woman
does not fit as well as a man does, because tha operation is
beyond her physical endurance.
But where her strength wae
equal to the task, in almost every instance she performs
more yo.drk than the man.
the same pay.
The result is that she never got
Ahen the inspector asPdthe question, "hhy
should not this woinan get the same money as the man"? the
reply was, "Wall, we will give it to her when she is able to
do the work."
But she has already demonstrabed that ahe was
doing more work than the man.
(aLliatufiJrni‘A.):
I just want to say that as
far as the eight hour shift 19 concerned, it would have the
tendency, of cour9ea to bring the men to the eight hours
shift, just as wall as the women, because if the Tamen are
gL.ing to 5--mployed at night at all they will have to be
employed with the men.
They a re not going to run an eijat
hour shift for men ani an eight hour shift fur •,komen.
That came up vary strongly in the beginning of the war
JIM
16
when we had a labor ounference with some of the aelegatiuns
from England that were here at that time before the American
Federation of Labor, and those men said-- the manufacturers
that were largely representad at that conference being the
largest manufacturers in the United c'tates-- they said,
"If
ihe
are handling Government contracts ana civilian con-
tracts, and we are running eiit hours on the Government
contract and running nine, tan, or eleven hours on the
civilian contract, won't that create a labor unrest?"
And they said, "Yes, naturally it would.
It would create a
labor unrest and bring the other people up to the eight
hour day."
And they did not like it at all.
It is the saaie thing here.
.L feel very strongly that
the requests for wom-Jn to do night work
ing to be
stopped a great deal by saying that the firms are to run
three eight -hour shifts.
When the firm stops to think about
that, they are not going to ask so frequently for the employment of women at cAight.
I agree *ith Mr. Commissioner Lynch that the same pay
for tne same work is a much better term than equal pay for
equal work.
I want to say that that is one of the biggest
questions before the country today.
It has been a big question
17
and attracting attention in
ngland, France, and all over,
and it is here with us, now, and it is up to us to find the
best scheme possible to try and enforce that, because if
manufacturers do have to pay the same wage for the 5ame work-in reality, not in theory-- there would not be the rushing
into the industries by Amen that Ive have tociay.
Je know
that they would than employ the women as it was re cessary
to employ them and not as we have it in Chicago and out in
the western States.
These are very large questions and they have to be
dealt with thrwgh the government and through the '.'tate
officials, and of course through the labor unions,
We all
know, most of us at least, that the labor union is the greatest safeguard on that proposition.
I du not quite agree with Commissioner Lynch when he
says women will not organize.
I want to say that pas sonally
I have paid my dues and been an active member in a trade
41,cm fur eighteen years, and there have been thousands of
others just like me, and I want to say that the women of
today want to go into the labor unions.
We ought tot to dig -
des that question here, because it belongs under another
head entirely, but I just wa.nt to say that in defense of the
women, and then I want to gat back to the night work again.
18
As a trade union member I feel that the propsed safeguard
on night 5ork by the Government is the only solution that we
cl.r1 have at this time.
As one
o has A-orked very strongly
7.1
4
to get some of the labor laws upon the statute books for
women, I feel that we can safegua.rd them this way much better
than letting it go helter-skelter
and then when the legis-
latures meet, probably repeal the few laws we Agit have.
'zu I hope this assembly will study this question very
thorougb.ly, and if the scheme goes through that we will have
the fullest cooperation possible from the States, because we
here in Aashington can not du everything; we can only ciP
anytiing through the cooperation of the States.
Aiss VanKlieek:
I think it might be proper to add to
what itiladagagiawr says, that there is 0*Damn' s trade union
now in this country.
For the first time, so far as we know,
there is to be an official conference called by the Federal
guvernmentin ikashington of women trade unionists.
The women
in industry service have now their national and internati unal
union, which has women members sending a woman delegate to
hashington, and the trade union woman will discuss all of
these problems themselves.
Mr. Lynch (New York):
misunderstood.
I certainly do not want to be
I have perhaps an attribute that is discon-
19
certing to myself: I try to see things exactly as they are,
and any amo unt
f adulation for the ‘..c casion dues nut very
often sway my feelings.
I know that women do not organize;
and so far as I afn personally concerned, I was for fourteen
years praident of an international organization that was the
first to insist and maintain for more than half a century
that the ,Nur,en who dre members of that organization should
receive exactly the same wage minimum as was accorded to the
men who r:elonged to that organization.
true t‘., that principle.
I have tried to be
I do not pretend to deceive myself
any for the purposes of this occasion, because I think if I
deceived. myself I would be one of
he poorest friends and
supportezs of the itnterests of women in industry here at
this assembly.
Miss HUt.ise
I think there are two ways by which equal
wages for equal work may be encouraged.
In machine shops women have not had the trainirg whida
men have had.
vien are retained for the setting up, which
means an increased subdivision of the job, because there are
five women and one man doing work formerly done by five men.
It is going to increase.
Women are not ding in any sense
precisely the same work which the men did formerly.
It seems
to me the basis of our equal pay has got to be the job done.
20
If five women and one man do the job formerly dune by five
men, those six persons collectively should receive the same
wage received formerly by the group of five.
receive the same vage that
The man should
he, formerly received, and the
difference be divided between the remaining women in that
group.
It means that the class of the job is not reduce;
it means that the women are receiving a slightly less rate
than the men.
The manufacturer does not have to pay the
same wages, because he says he can not transfer them on to
other work.
It recognizes that principle, because it seems
to me it safeguard.s the manta work.
uf course that same
plan has gut to be employed under conditions where the
output of the grow is larger than it was under former
conditions, conditions where the output may be somewhat less.
But it is the job which should be considered as a unit, I
think, together with the output from the workers on the job
under the new plan. (Applause).
Mr. Ge rnon (New York):
I think if that plan were
carried out it would destroy the whole wage system.
studied it pretty carefully.
for an illustration.
I have
Take the machinist business,
One of the things that has happened
is that they are looking for skilled machinists.
There are
thousands and thcu sands of machinists who have left machine
21
shops with a low basis
and. have gone into the munitions
plants to do just one single operation on a lathe or some
other machine, because they clan make more money than they
could covering their whole range of business.
I .now that th3
of work as the men.
onaen are doing exactly the same kind
Let ma say that since the developments
of this liar, there have been thousands of men via o have
been put on an operation thLkt knew no more about it than the
women itiho are being put on it today.
They wer ricat machinists;
they war:: simply taken because they were hum.i.n beings and
they had hands and feet, and they were put on that operation,
and, unfortunately, so many of them are hired and they are
told nothing about the opa'ation, nothing about
its hazards,
and woaien today are doing exactly the same work.
Eng.,and has women tool makers, and they say they are very
efficient.
I can not say anything from my perst.onal knowledge,
but I have wen women that have been put into the same places
that men formerly occupied, and in many instances they are
superior to them in the operation that they ar- performing.
And with the high speed of inriustry, with the developments
of mach Ins tools, it has come about that they do not want
mechanic-1s; they simply want a machine orarator, and if they
can put them on a machine and teach them enough about it to
•
22
make it run, they du not always look ci.t their own advantage
and get more efficiency.
So the women are doing much of
the work equal to the men, and they ought to be equally
paid.
x (Indiana):
question.
I would like to ask Miss Hialsev a
Did I understand you to say that women are not
doinz exactly the sa.me work as man?
Miss Halsem
In those cases they are not.
4iss VanKleek:
Iis
WUISe
W.4-9
referring to instances
in which they have had a group of men displaced by a gr k,up
of women.
Mrs. Cox:
I thought she certainly ouuld not be making
that as a general $tatement .
Miss Hulaeti • There are many specific instances now, and
I believe that principle of subdivision is gt.,ing to grow
with the withdrawing of tti,
.. man and putting unskilled women
on the less skilled part of the job, retaining a skilled
man for the most skilled portion of the job..
Mrs.
Cox:
I did not think that you wished to be under-
stood as making th
statement that women were not doing the
same things as nien•
Miss VanKleek:
Miss Hulse:
You did not mean that?
No; I
did not mean to say that.
A
23
lire. Hokin:
I have been where they have had this
problem of replacing man with women, and it is certainly a
fact that we must face.
There are a Treat many instances
where women can not perform the whole task.
There is a
very strong feeling that women must be paid the same wage
as the men, and yet, when you find that you have to put a
man on that job with the women to take the heavy parts, it
11..,s rear) very hard to put that ttL-.) to the management in such a
way that they can say that Lhe woman is rally doing that
job.
That ia a thing that we must face, and you have got to
adjust that in some way, and the only way you can, as I see
it, is to base the thing on production, becea.7 se there
are SuM0
jobs many women can do in whole and many, many jobs that they
can only do partly.
It is a hard thing to know h , w to
treat it.
kfr. Kizer:
ly own personal opiniJi g that such things
as loading operations and inspection of the automatic
machines, and various others, are brand-new occurations and
can be figural out on tir basis of the same pay for the
tate
work, taking into aouount the ea, nc,rrio factor that woman are
more willing to work nights than men.
In other words, there
are cr.ore -women willing to 'pork night' than men.
A good man
will not work nights and does not have to work ni4its.
A
24
good woman will, so far as being
Is on the op3rations is
concerned.
Pir. Gram (Oregon):
I simply want to say that I oan not
agree with some oI- opinions that have 'been stated.
absolutely
I am
of the same opinion as Mr. Lynch, of New York, is.
Oregon is ordinarily a lumbering S3tate, but of late they
began to introduce women into sawmills, box factories, sash
and doGr factorierl and on different kinds of machines, eaws
and planers, ani we have gut them working in iron founiries,
and
n -a
yards, if you please.
will we draw the line?
The question is, where
I question whether anybody can say
that a woman oan do certain things but she is not physically
fit to do other things, beoause there are some women that
can lift as heavy a load as soma man can.
T"e employer, of course, puts up the argument that there
is a shortage of labor.
There is nu daortaga of labor in
Oregon, except that tnera is a shortage of Chinese labor.
That is all tler
is
it.
Amen are employed and intro-
duced into these industries simply because they can be
employed more cheaply than men can be employed.
If this Commission has g t authority to make rules and
enforce rules, I believe they daould make a ruling that when
women are employed in sash and door factors, or in 2 bux
25
factoriesto do the same work that the men did previots to their
employment, that they must get the same pay that the men were
receiving for that class of work.
Then constitute a boaru
of woman to pass upon the physical ability ox women to
rform that labor that she is supposed to perform.
You may
control it in t at way, and in course of time, when the war
is over, they will eliminate themselves from this class of
employment if compelled to get the same rate of vages as
the men are getting.
I do not see how you can regulate it inamother way.
I
would be glad to sae a ruling of that kind lade, proviled
the Federal commission oan enforce it.
mis9 VanKleak:
There is already that principle here
by the Yational ;4ar Labor Board.
qr. Gra! :
Compel these men to hire all of their
amplLlees through the Federal labor bureau.
Have them state
specifically the clas9 of work the women are expected to
perform; then nave tna board pass on whether they are
physically fitted to perform the work or not.
I believe that
woul,i take care of it better than any other way.
Mr. Norman (Nebraska):
I believe what the women ought
to du is to g..) to the Director General of Railroads and proing
test against women being employed in railroadshops, tr uck
26
heavy iron.
Thera is no fine work in a railroad top.
all heavy work.
It is
I believe that is no plaoe for a %Arian, in a
machine shop of a railroad.
ies where there is fine work.
It might be in munition factorI believe the women ought to
take that upwith the railroad administration and step that
kind of work.
Miss Va.nKleek:
We fortunately have present a woman
representative of the railroad administration.
Vise Goldmark:
I am very glad to have a moment to
speak ab out this new work of the woman's service sect ion
and ask for your cooperation, because it is very much desired
and very much seeded.
This nem seotion is to small section which has been
particularly appointed for the purpose of taking care of the
interests of women, acting under the directions of the
Director General.
There were 22,00U in the service last April, and the
figures have not yet ben) compiled for July.
It is not the intention of this service to give up the
inspection service at all, but necessarily that will be
limited, and the particular participation of the Labor
departments is needed in order that we may be fully acquairted
with the conditions.
The general statenent of the
irector General that the
27
labor laws that are in force in the States should be in
force in the railroad service in a way federalizes the
local state laws.i and leaves in the hands of these officials
the inepsction and the drawing of attention of the official
to any nonobservance of labor laws.
yesterday afternoon.
That wls adogted on
I doubt whether it is advisable to
begin local prosecution of the railroads.
It occurs to me
that a much more ready remedy is in our hands inthat the
Federal authorities working under the Dir3ctor General have
it intheir power to stop those conditions at once.
In this
employment we have the beginnings of standardized pay, the
same pay for the
wurk, standard pay for all the employees
of the Federai service under the new rulings; and women
participate in these rulings just as men do.
The application of this matter presents some difficulties,
but we have the reoognization of the participation by
the unions thewseives, and as a result of this open door
women arc beginning to organize in a most extraordinary way.
The wkdmen car cleaners are coming in in a perfectly unexpected
manner.
o.le of the employments has stipulated the exact pay.
There is a minimum pay and a maximum pay.
Il'creases are
given on the basis of pay previot,s to January 1, 1917.
There is suggested a minimum of 2P cents an hour and a
maximum of 4) cants, so that it is not pos4 ble for those
women in a day to work under 28 cents an hour.
A year ago
when women began to be taken into the service in such numbers
they weregetting 18 and 19 cents, and there was an enormous
substitution of women on account of the fact that they were
cheap.
It was found in Ohio that women were being taken in
for 18, 2u, and 21 cents for general labor on a scrap heap,
as laborers and sectiontands, possibly, when you could not
gat a man under 26 cents or 2P or 3u cents.
The first stipulation is observance of the labor law;
the second, equal pay for equal work; and the third has
come up rery recently, that women are no longer to beemployed
in section work and no longer to be employed in freight
houses in doing any trucking.
You see, we have some standards that we really can
get enforced, and get enforced immediately.
cooperation.
We Aant your
Persona,14, I should be delighted to get
reports of any nonobservance of the labor law, directly
to headquarters.
The whole field has not been covered.
There are still occupations of women that have to be carefully
studied and further rulings made on the basis of the facts
found.
29
Miss Bresetta (Kansas): T want to know if you have
considered the employment of girls in the railroad yards,
'Jr working for the railroads in any capacity.
great many girls 16 an
We have a
17 years old going into the yards.
We consider the moral hazard is very great, and we have teen
powerless to stop it because we hive no State law with which
to regulate the employLiant of women in that capacity.
Miss Guldmark:
Those are Pxactly the facts that we
want to have come to us inorder to make them the basis of
further recommendations from thi9 section.
In this regulation of wagesio the
Yrs. Cox (Indiana):
railroad shops the element of time enters into it.
I have
recently made a rather superficial survey of women in railur State ana I found women receiving a certain
:-041(1 shops in
rate of pay which was not the pay that the wen Freviu;siy
were receiving; and when I put it up to the manager and asked
him Why, he said, "We have orders fro
ing the wages."
as lung as
the department regulat-
Those women had not been workinq in the shops
he men had.
They are doing the Tow ,ficsric, ana I
du not see why they ought it tv have the IIAJne pay.
"Does she do
same work?"
it as w1.?"
"Yes."
"Yes."
I said,
"Doing identically the
She was reoeiving forty !wale cants, and
the man sixty, nut because he w,le doing any different ',lurk,
30
cor doing work with any greater production, but because he
was with the oompany luager.
Iiss Geldmark:
I do not understand that that is the
Take the machinist helpers.
basis.
One uf the things that
we vc.alt t‘, determine is when they graduate uut uf that class.
But they have nut been in for a great length of time, and
there is a specific rate uf pay fur machinist helper*.
have a sumewbat different
Mr. Mcrrissey(Ccloradc):
idea of this pay questicn than must of the speakers who
have talked her
thi9 morning.
Vy goud brother Lynch said
that he cunsidered the expressicn "equal pay fur equal wurk"
a fraud.
I ounsider his statement, "the same pay fur the
same work," also a fraud.
higiler
gy idea is that Aumen shuula have
pay than men for the same wurk.
tell yuu where I got this ide.
(Laughter).
I will
In coming cn this trip to
1V4shington we had a stop uf fifteen minutes at Linc‘ln, Neb.,
and I got uut of the car, ,walked up and duwn the railroad
track ani aruund the yards there.
I saw sum e ccach cleaners.
They were women, ani I nuticed that une uf them zad a pair
of high-heeled shoes un.
T want up tu her and said tu her,
"What kind vf shoes have yuu?"
"suede".
he said, "Swede" or
Anyow, they had high tops.
I knuw that those
shoes cust '3.6, because we have one woman factory inspector
31
in Colorado, and she just bolght a pair of those auede shoes
recently.
(Laughter).
Miss VanKleei:
Dr. Meeker:
in this council.
I hcre she gets higher pay, Mr.MorAssey?
I do nut know whether I have any standing
I am merely the Commissiuner of Labor
Statistics of tha United States Guvernment.
I have always
felt an intareiA in women's work, ard Miss VanKlaek and I
have come to a very good understanding,
94.)
that the condon
that Mr. Hambrecht descriteu as applying ir Wisconsin will
undoubtedly apply in the United F7tates Government henceforth.
You will recall that he said-- I think that I understood
him Correctly-- that the whole of the Aomen's division in the
State uf Wisconsin he deeme so important that he turned over
the whole inspection force to that division.
Vies -VnKleek and I have an understanaing whereby if I
make an ifvestigation intk, any industry or any line or group
of industries on whioh she wants particular information, my
agents will get all the information that she may need.
On
the other hand, if she secures larger appropriations so that
she can wake investigaticons on her own hook, in order to avoid
this intolerable and eternal duplication, she will make a
sini,le investigation and get the inf rlation that I may want.
aduition to tha information that she is s.-3eking at the time.
32
That is the only possible arrangement on which to work.
You can not divide industry into male industry and female
industry.
It does nut divide along those lines.
industry, and employes are teployees.
Industry is
Legislation intended
to protect and safeguard women will likewise protect and
safeguard men.
I think the 8-hour ruling that has been
discussed today is evidence of that fact.
It seems to me that the discussion has brought this
point out vary clearly, the necessity of intensive surveys
of industry in order to determine those occupatiuns suitable
to women and those occupations unsuitable to women in the
present stage.
That was exactly the motive that induced me to go into
the operation of street railways in the city of New York,
because I have just completed an investigation, a eery complete investigation, in the operation of street railways, and
I knew that that occupation was unsuitable to men and therefore yet more unsuitable to women, and I discovered that no
changes bad been made that were worth mentioning Whatsoever
in the carbarn oonditiuns, in the operation of the street
railway lines in Brooklyn and New 'fork.
presented.
Those facts were
They were very much criticized and the
bureau was
called various epithets; but when it came to the possibility
33
of prosecution, then the status of the bureau was commented on
more favorably.
The Bureau of Labor Statistics, if it had a sufficient
appropriation, could have made similar investigations in all
the industries of the country su that you might now have the
informatiun for your use.
Tuu might kilo* much more than you
do now, wbat occupations are suitable to women and What are
not suitable to women.
Of course, you all know that women are more susoeptible,
or at least that lead poisoning is more injurious to women
than it is to men, and certainly they ought to be excluded
from all occupations Where there 13 serious risk, or any risk
I will say, of lead poisoning.
I think Dr. R4milton Is not able '60 determine in her own
mind idiether woman are more susoeptible to poisoning in
general than are men.
dy own opinion is-- ana it is merely
•
an o;inion based upon some observation, but not very much,
on some sources uf information, but nut very many-- my o*n
opinion is that women are more subject to all poisoning.
think that is probably if not proved, at
I
east indicated, by
the eence in Grea.t Britain-- the greater susoeptatility
of women to fatigue 2,(Ici the greater injury
fatigue.
their health by
Fatigue is merely an industrial poison in the last
34
analysis.
I hope that some action will be taken whereby it will
be feasitie to make further investigations, more detailed
studies of the occupations in industry with the view of
determining which occupations you should take the stand that
women should never enter and which occupations may be so
renovated that women may be employed without s.irious injury
to their health and to the future of the community, and have
women enter those occupations which are safe and sane.
It has been slid by some speakers that women can not
work on heavy work.
that is heavy 'work?
is the lightest work.
The heaviest work
This subject is so big that I do not
know just which line to take,now; but I at an all-around
machinist, of a sort; I know something about it.
work is the lightest work.
The heaviest
pork that is heavy enough for
thaemployment of a crane is the work that reluires less
muscular exerti,no
Noraen can do that kind of work just as
well as man can do it, in Great Britain.
much of it in this country.
it at all.
They are not doing
I do not believe they are doing
It is the widdle class work that constitutes the
heavy muscular strain.
In Great Britain they Eviy that work
requiring lifting between 60 and
cult for women to perform.
pounds is the most diffi-
In Great Britain they allow woman
35
to lift 60 pounds, sometimes more than men lift.
But no
woman that I have ever sean can lift 60 pounds, 50 pounds,
or 25 pounds, and do it constantly all day long without
seriyua injury to her health.
We ought to be pretty careful
in sayihg that women can do light work.
They oan operate a
profiling machine, or ttat sort of thing, without injury.
Maybe they can and maybe they can not.
It depenas on how
the work is, entirely, and it depends on the machine whether
the work is free from injury or whether it involves very
serious injury.
All of those things Lught to be takan into account, and
I hQge that some arrangewent ca,n be made for this conference
to take care of just suoh inVestigations to determine what
oocupations women may go into without injury.
4r9. 'Llsgrove (Kentucky):
I would like to iisk Miss
Goldwark if that Federal restriction applies to office workers
cin the railroad.
Mies Goldmark:
Under the present conditions and hours
of work, they are laboring under the alme disadvantages of
the 8-hutz basic day that kr. Lynch desoribed, for the present.
Mrs. Vusgrove:
There has been some complaint that my
State law does not cover office work, so I hope tbe Federal
government will take it up.
36
Colonel Bryant:
She spoke of two occupations in rail-
roading that have been protected.
I did not catch *hat they
were.
Miss Goldmark:
Trucking in the freight yards and section
work.
Colonel Bryant:
Section -hands on the tracks?
Miss Gollmark:
Yes.
;Ars. Musgrove:
1 wuuld like to ask one more question.
Is it the policy of the railro4.14 administration to notify
the various State authorities, the employment officers,
particularly?
I know in our State we have been supplying
a great many women fur railroad work through our employment
service, and up until the time you made tha statement I knew
nothing about any prohibition.
Miss Goldmark:
That is a special provision which this
new section was very anxi,dus to bring before the officers,
and we are now contemplating a communication tu the departments
to inform them of this desire of cooperation in the enforcement
of the laws govelning women's hours.
Mr9. tusgrove:
They will be notified, will they?
Miss Goldmark:
Specifying these points that I have
spoken of.
Mies VanKleek:
1
I think that we have had a very helpful
37
discussion here.
Before we take a recess, tifiss Abbott has
an announcement to make.
But before we hear the announcement,
I just want to sum the thing up in this way:
The women in industry service is glad to be of any
possible assistance to you on all questioneof women in
industry.
There arE.,) sevaral different groups concerned with
women in industry.
Of course, any questions affecting
railroads Miss Goldmark will be glad to hear from you about
promptly, and the other groups in the same wz.‘y.
But if you
are confused as to where to send your communication, the
women in industry service will be glad to hea,r from you
d.irectly if you will address it at the Department of Labor,
WiLshington.
We will sea to it that the communicati,,n goes
to the proper department that
3
responsible for that par-
ticulLiz phase of women's work.
ffeI
nt to have you rea.11y feel that you have a
connectiun with us so th:.,t the information from the different
Federal group
will go to you promptly on any dac isions
standa.rds or policies or plans in which tl'Bre should be
the closest possible connection, and we a,sk that the reverse
I- true, that we, be informed uf plans and standards a,nd
policies adopted in the States.
38
(ftereupon,at 12:55 o'clock p.m., after several
announcements by Miss Abbott, a recess was taken until
2:30 o'clock p.m.)
WIrLab.
Pol.Bd.
10/1/18
ATTER RECFc"-"'.
The conference resumed its session at the expiration
of the recess, Miss Abbott presiding.
•••• IMO
Miss Abbott:
Wa are going to hear the vary first
thing this afternoon from some of the industrial divisions
c.)f some of the proluction departments.
have come to
distinguish between those departments of the Government which
are engaged in getting out a productiun program, and we are
to hear first from Mr. Brand, who is the assistant chief
safety engineer of the United States shiping Board.
Mr. Prand, you are limited to fifteen minutes.
RE'fARKS OF VR. P. J•.
ASSISTANT CtlIET SAFETY ENGINEER, UNITED TrATES
SHI"ING BOARD, EMERGENCY FLETT CGRDOR , TION.
Mr. Br-Lnd:
tadam Chairman, and ladies and gentlemen, I
regret very much to hava to
yuu that Mr. Schultz, the
chief safety angineer of our depaxtment, is ili, and I take
this over for him at a moment's notice.
I am sure that I
could not du justice to it as Mr. Rchultz could, but I will
try to ao my best.
40
The building of America's gigantic Emergency Fleet
for the transportation of troops and 9upplies to the war
zone is a stupendous task unrrecedented in the annals of
air. construction, and in order that this great enterprise
might proceed with the utmost rapidity, nothing known to
modern ingenuity has been overlookea which might contribute
to the creation anu maintenance of maximum efficiency in
pro uction.
Man -power, naturally, is the su.eratructure
which surl.orts any great enterprise and successwill dei:end
upon the high mental, physical and moral standard on which
t,his most important factor is maintained.
The importance of rrotecting the health and providing
for the safety of the 35C),00 workers engaed in ship constructi n in the 2 -J0 shipyards and installation plants
controlled by the United 7tates
klipping Board Emergency
Fleet Corkoration was e:,rly realized by the officials of
the Corporation and a policy was estab.lished that every
attention should be given to the welfare of the Aorkers.
Urganizations to maintain this polioy were esta.bialieci
and the work is now conducted by the Health and Sanitation
Section and the gaiety Fnginearing c'ection as a part of the
activities of the Industrial Relations Groul,, under the
general supervision of the Director of Industrial Relations,
41
The activities of each of the Sections are directed by an
experienced executive head, surrounded by a corps of able
ascistants and a field staff capable of rendering expert
advice and every assistance to the shipbuilding plants.
The Health and Sanitation work was inaugurated in
November, 1917, when Mr. Edward N. Hurley, Chairman of
the U. S. shipping Board, effected, through the Secretary of
31r, the appointment of Major Phillip S. Doane (now Lt.-Col.
Doane) from the Surgeon General's office as a medical officer
to serve a3 the Director of this work.
His duties at the
time were not definitely outlined, -Oat the matter was
placed in his hands with instructions to build up his own
force and to adopt the measures necescury to protect the
health of the men in the shipyards.
Under the direct supervision of Lt.-Col. Duane, with a
competent staff of medical officers and sanitary engineers,
the sanitation in the shipyards has been elevated to a
very fair standard of excellency.
A definite program of
procedure was early adopted and the inspectors were instructed to cover every subject in their original survey.
This
included hospitals, first aid equipment, physicians and
uttendants, facilities for removing the injured or sick
workmen to the hospitals, water supply, toilets, wash rooms,
dressing rooms, garbage, manure and refuse disposal, the
42
extermination of mosquitoes, flieB and vermin, restaurants
and lunch rooms, with particular attention to the food
served and the kind of service, and housing and barrack
facilities, with necessary provisions in oonnection therewith, which would provide for the health of the occupants.
In addition to the above activities, which refer
principally to plants, careful consi&!ration is given to
the general sanitary conditions in the city or neighborhood
in which the ship -workers resiae.
Faulty conditions are
brought to the attention of local, State or National Health
bodies and their coo;eration sought in improving conditions.
Very careful attention is given to restaurants and
eating place, the food being watched as to quality and
the sanitary manner in which it is served.
When necessary
to imfrove these facilities, every assistance is given to
the yard officials, and in event new facilitieg are contemplated, c qpiete plans and specifications both fur
buildings and eluipment are availab c fur installation of
various sizes.
This Sectionhas also cooperated with the Division
directing the construction of living accommodations for
shipyard workers in vlrious sections of the country, and
the sanitary engineers have renderei material assistance in
43
all problems of drainage, sewage, water supply, etc., etc.
The examination of seamen, first aid equipment, and medical
cabinets in completed ships, and the instruction of captains,
mates and flusters of our own Merchant Marine, in the use
of the medicine and first aid equipment, is another service
rendered by this Section.
During the spring and summer months of 1918, the Section
was intrumental in raising, through State Health Bcards,
Municipalities and other organizations, the sum of $603,000
for mosquito extermination and sanitation in districts
bordering on the shipyards.
The personnel of the Health and Sanitation Section is
composed entirely of civilians, with the exception of the
Director.
The work has been largely that of a sanitary
engineering, of which the staff has nine Ektnitary engineers
and sanitarians.
The country has been divided into dis-
tricts, ard sanitary enginaars cover these districts making
repeated surveys of shipyards and reporting directly to
the Hume Office.
Reports are then forwarded to the com-
panies, and the District Sanitary Engineers render every
assistance to the shipyard owners in carrying out the
recommendations.
The medical and surgical attendants in
the yard are employed by the shipyard owher, but follow the
44
suggestions in improving conditions and f6.cilities.
The Hume Office employs three Doctors, one of which
is employed in the local dispensary which is maintained for
the benefit of the Corporation's office empl yees.
In that
dispensary is maintained a trained nuree in adJition tu the
doctor.
The average daily attenaance is about forty-five.
The qafety Engineering activities were est blished in
the early part of January, 1918, with the arTointment of
the Chief Qafety Engineer with instructions to organize the
Safety Engineeringwork in a manner c.,.!.:able of rendering
every assistance tu the shipyards in the organization of
effective Accident Prevent measures.
The Safety Engineering
work aas originally c,.nducted under the Insurance Department
of the Corporation but later was transferred to the
Industrial Ralations Group and the Sifety Engineering Section established which provided, in addition to the home
office staff, for the appointment of a fiai- force consisting
of a District
the eleven
fety 17nginecr and an Assistant in each of
tlipbuilding Districts.
In ail cases, competent
Safety Engineers with broad experience in
.11fety and
Compensation matters have beml chosen.
The Safety Engineering Rection functions with tha
shipyard plants, buth Government agency and private, and
45
with other divisions and sections of the Corporation, having
to do with Industrial Relations an
the engineering branches,
supervising plant construction and tthe installation of
equipment.
Safety Specifications for "P/ant Construction and
Equipment," based upon recognized practical standards, have
bean prepared, which may ba used as a whole or in part to
cover the necessary safety precautions and appliances at
the time construction work is planned and machin=try is
installed, and every step is taken to see that such features
are included in the original plans so the Safety features
may be fully complied with and completed with new work.
The Field Staff of the Safety ,Engincerine; Section
make periodic surveys of the plants and cooperates in every
way possible with the officials in establicihing efficient
Accident Prevention activities.
Stress is laid upon the
importance of thorough Safety organization, headed by a competent Safety Engineer, who will devote full or at least part
time to Safety, and the appointment of Central and Shop
SIfety Committees whose duty it is to study plant conditions
and occupational practices with a view of creating better
and safer working conditions, and the elimin4ti0n or rectification of such conditions or practices as may .
t--e o,nsidered
unsafe.
Considerable attention is also given to educational
46
meas‘ires through which the employees are reached and
instructed in the principles governing accilant prevention,
and every andeAvor made to secure their hearty cooperation
in the work.
The Chief Safety Tnginaer and staff at the Home Office,
and the District Safety Engineers, constitute the Central
Slfety Comwittee of the Emergency Fleet Corporation, which
meats periodically to consider all phases of .afety ELgineering work, and in each District the Safety Engineer acts in a
similar capacity in bringing the Safety Engineers or representatives of the various clapyards together for the purpose
of discussing their Safety problems.
TheDistrict Sfety
Enginezir serves as a clearing house for the District, an..
the Home Office as a General clearinghouse on all matters
pertaining to Safety which may be of benefit to the Safety
organizations inthe various yards.
The rlfety Engineering Section fully appreciates the
help of everybody who can cntribute to
he reduction of
accidents in the Shipyards during the present emergency,
and it has solicited the aid of State del artal,Ints, Insurance
companies, and national organizations.
4e are indeed
indebted to the many State officials, directly interated in
this work, for the excellent as,sistnce they have rendered.
47
Since the inauguration of the activities in e._Lch of the
Shipbuildirg Districts a large majority of the yards have
been organized, and it is pleasing to state that there
has been a material reduction in accidents and that the
situation inthe shipyards is steadily improving.
You have heard, ladies and gentlemen, what we are
doing in safety and sanitation work, and if there is anyone
in the audience who does not quite understand our activities
I Should be glad to be questioned concerning them.
Are there ary questions that anyone wants
Miss Abbott:
to ask Ir. Brand about the scheme on which they are working
inthe shipbuilding board, the Emergency Fleet Corporation.
(No response).
Mr. Brand:
The State commission can be of considn'able
assistantbe to us in the ',ivy of statistics, and so forth.
They have been very good to us in giving us that data and
have exhibited consideable interest.
If any of you ladies
and gentlemen have been instrumental in giving us that information, please accept our thanks for it.
Miss Abbott:
Major Rosensohn is here this afternoon
and wants to say something at this time.
Major, they are all smiling at your coming.
that you are a brave man.
They think
(Laughter and applause).
48
Major Rosensohn:
I am coming with an olive branch.
(Laughter).
After our discussion yesterday I felt vary strongly
the danger that we were facing with regard to maintaining of
labor standards by allowing that opinion to stand.
been trying to have that opinion modified.
We have
So far we have
have
not been able to succeed, but I think we reasonable grounds
for hoping that we may be able to have the ociniA.n modified
so as not to hold that the State laws are superseded.
Let me further state to you that of course the opinion
of the Judge Advocate General is not binding upon any State
body.
It may have some persuasive effect with the court,
but it is not binding upon any of th, State dep ,Ixtinents.
You
can go ahead with your enforcement of the law just as you
have been going ahead.
We are also acting on the basis
that thzAt opinion does
not exist, first, by informing all our FrQluctlun people
that they must not advise any contractor that he is not obligated to comply with the rrovisions of the State laws or
that the State laws are inapplicable as to him, and we tell
them expressly that the policy of the Government is that the
standards set by the State laws shall be complied with in
every respect, ani that they must give no advice which will
49
tent to induce any contractor to violate those standards.
I think you will have to, as a result of the conference
of yesterday, have some machimry worked out Which will make
our pow era
under the contract effective and we will want
your 000perati.dn, your assistance as representatives of
the departments, equally so, and we will want your views as
to what should be done.
I think we have the power all along
to supervise and 3ea to it that standards are complied with,
so that at some time or other we can get a contractor who is
very anxious to go on with his contract rather than to terminate it.
le can bring them to terms.
Under the'circum-
stances it is desirable that you proceed as if that ol'inion
.,i1 not exist, and if it should be attacked, why of course
you can state that ',here is a strong difference of opinion
in the Department as to the validity of that opinion, and
it is an opinion of the Deparmtment that has been practically
disregarded by
its order directing that these clauses be
inserted in every contract. (Applause).
mies Abbott:
I think that is good evidence that we
are going to have an added weapon inthe enforcement of State
laws by the War Department j.netead of undermining them in
that direction.
We are going to hear next from Major Gitchell, chief of
50
the industrial service section, Ordnance Department.
The Ujor does not seem to be here.
Is Captain Reiley
here?
Captain Reilay:
Miss Abbott:
Yes.
We %ill hear from Captain Palley, then.
He is the director of the safety and sanitati n branch,
production division, of the Ordnance Department, and I am
very glad to present him to you.
(Applause).
RTMARKP Or CAPT. A. D. REILTY,
DIRTCTOR, SAFFTY ANDQANITATTON BRANCH, PRODUCTIOr DTVIQION Or TT-TT ORDWANCT DTPART'fFNT.
Capt. Reilay:
Madam Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, I
have some very copious notes to speak from.
I have found
that one on gat up against an assemblage of experts and say
all they have to sv, or rather, all they want to say, in a
very short time.
Ae recogniz-J, of course, first, that in all Qtkr ordnance
plants, safety and good working conditions promote production.
That, of oourse, wa all realise as an axiom, to start with.
It, however, does not completely dispose of our problem.
not only want production, but we have gut to have amergen'
We
51
production.
We want production now, nut tomorrow.
thing that we can do towards
If any-
: 3afety and good working
conditions is going to get ue an increased production,
going to do
on the oth-
we dr a
hand, it is going to deir-ly
the immediate emergency production that we neea today and
tomorrow, then ws have got a problem to handle Ahich we have
kot to sit down and think about.
In all these matters we need the States' cooperation;
in fait, we have time and again asked for it.
I think I
myself have bean in a great many States and interviewed Commissialers and asked for cooperatioins asked to be notified
of conditions which in their olAnion they did nut think were
as they should ba,
SU
that we could do our best to remedy
them.
We have in addition to this problem of cooreratiun the
necsssity uf limng as far as we can duplication of inspection.
I was going over the situation the oth:r day and I
counted up fuartaan, I think it was, different agencies that
had to do with safety and sanitation in plants of all kinds.
4all, if cal fourtaan go into one plant at once and we had
fourtean different sets of recommendations, fourtean different
groups of inspectors,
think that the chances of the plant
52
knowing what to do would be rather small.
Uur problem is to endeavor as far as we oan to work
with those various agencies of the States and see if we can
get a unanimity of opiniun as to what is needed, one set of
recS mmendations, une set of orders.
The question has been raised a number of times as to
stanS. rds.
Of course, insofar as the ordnance is concerned,
time work is very highly technical.
It is of a kind that
probably not every man who is thoroughly qualified as a
safety engineer, let us say, or an expert in factory management, would be able to handle.
The explosive problem is dcult, and in the face of a
S uge Fress for production, its difficulties increase tremendously.
Ice are working through the agencies that are dealing
with this problem.
le are working in our sanitary matters
largely through the public health service, giving them full
cS operation and they are giving us full cooperation.
Tfte public health service is an extremely well equipped
body, and their method of investigation is usually sending a
safety engineer and an industrial physician into a plant at
the same time.
Coming duwn to explosive matters: whenever a condition is
53
reported to us that the reporting agency thinks should not
be permitted to exist, thwusually get an expert on the
ground right away.
Sometimes it is a man from the Bureau of Mines, which
has a very well equipped staff; sometimes it is one of our
own experts.
But he will go there, and if the State has been
active in reporting the condition he will consult with them
and cooperate in all ways to 3ee that this condition is
remedied.
Thera has been a considerable amount of discussion as to
proper standards for this work, and I think that several
different sets are now in c urse of preparation.
I can say
for the Ordnance Department that a board of officers is now
working on two sets of standards for use in munitions plants,
one for safety, one for health; that when ttwose standards are
oom4eted, which will be very shortlys ive hope,tohave aui
our plans conform as nearly as possible to them.
The sanitary standards of course will deal with a great
many health problems which do not arise in the ordinary
factories, and probably are not applicable to all factories,
but really only to the plants that are handling commodities
that have a certain amount of danger to the health of the
employees.
54
I was looking over some few months ago some statistics
which I got
from one of the States, which I think manufactures
close to the largest amount of munitiuns for its size in the
United qtates.
In going over those statistics I found that
the accidental death rate in the munitions plant wle far
below that of many industries which, as an old life insurance
man, we used to insure freely; and a remarkable thing al:mat
it was the tremendous rise in the number of workers engaged
intha last, let .1.18 say, four to five years, and there had
been a steady decrease in the number of fatal accidents.
I have not seen the
as akole.
statistics fur the United States
I do not know just how they will compare.
But
that particular set, if that record is even approached by
the whole United States during the period of the war,
will,
I think, show most excellent results so far as our factories
are concerned.
Ael realize fully the 1099 of time on' the part of a
munitions lorker, whether it be from accident or illness,
V'
due to #Reonature of his or her employment or living conIP ,,
ditiuns!or anything else that enters into the inAustrial
problem of today is a distinct setback to production.
he are
working on that basis and endeavoring to cover together all
the agencies that are working on this proposition, and I hope
y
ou
•-nratt
.cThea.
-mil 1 reTember that that is our attitude.
ire wish cooper-
ation, aril if in the states where possibly the munition
problem is new, and you find conditions that you have nct
had to deal with before, if you will let US know any particular problem, we will sea that someone is sent out to
ist e
If there is any question that I can answer I would be
vlry rl al
to.
Abbott:
ouic1 live to ask?
noes anyone have any questions that they
I am sure Capt. Riley will be glad to
render you any aisiltance you need in cases where things
rtre not
oth
s yoli think they should.
Capt. Piley:
"'hank you.
11,J.F.s Abbott:
"ajor !"litchell has not core.
(Applause.)
'sr. "%Lilian 7. Pipley, who has charge of te Alminintration of Labor otandarls for Army Clothinc, i3 unable to
be here this afternoon.
They have a Frood deal of
racthinnry to set; that soldiers' clothes are made in
cor danc e
with proper ntRnttrde, and I
am
RC-
sorry that he is
not here.
The plo.in (liqcullion this afternoon 1. to be in the
ni
of the vforkin7 Conditions 'ervice of the repartment
of Labor.
organizel
It is one of the new services which has been
m(-3et the special problems of the
(Irrant Hamilton, nirector of the 7'orking Conditions Pervice
19, I arn sorry to pay, unable to be with us this afterAssistant Director of
noon, but mis9 Florence T17orne
he.re
the "'orkincr flonlitions
rvio.
charfre
I am very crial. to yield to Miss
thifl moment.
take
Thbrne, the Assistant nirector of the workinT r7c.Nnditiong
r7e,rv ice.
/4 ill
Appls.use.)
Thorne::
I arr sorry that mr. Namilton could not
be with you this afternoon.
I am 9ure that you will not
cret the lame information as to the lureau as thout
wsre
here.
he rerking r'ondit ions 'ervice, af; Miss Abbott sn.id,
one of tt,e new war len'ices, and the funct ions of that
scrvice you can rri-tt most quick2y if I real you rfhis descr ipt ion t wr itten by the
eeretary of Labor:
fur° examine into the matter of workinFr. conlitions
in the war inAustries; to determine the itanciards al to condit iono
shou7d be
maintlinaci
in the wqr inlustries; to
alopt rules embodying sulh stanlaris and exp:lainin. thsm;
to determine the best means fr)r securing the' 1.Jo0tion a,nd
57
maintenance of such standards and to cooperate with °tate
authorities for the above purposes."
But we soon found that there was a real function for
this service to perform, a nary ins that was contemplated
in the or ,ran ic acts of the Department of Labor, but which
no particular bureau had been organized to take care of
up until the war time.
Of course, some work, a p-reat deal
of it, was lone by the Bureau of Labor Ptat let los, in addit ion to its regular work, and the pioneer work laid splendid
foundations for additional work.
In go ins.
, over the ground as to just what should come
within the scope of the working Condit ions c'erv ice, we determined that we would exclude from that term wages and)t he
wage quest ion.
Therd were already a surf ic lent number of
agencies to take care of that.
seemed to
U9
That left a field which
to fall into three main divisions -- safety,
industrial hy;Tiene and labor management or labor administration — it is hard to find a term that does fit that
particular third division.
11 of these three sections form work that will be
very closely related.
First, there are various industrial services in the
5P
vsrious departments, and the plan is for us to work out
method of operation.
a
The job is so big that no one ser-
vice could do the whole thing, and the best results could
be aceonipl i shed, Lye thou crht, through guppl erten t ing th e
agencies that are n.lready in the field ani not by attempting
tS ,
upplant anyonf, who was doing, a real work.
The f lel J. of safety of lour se: has beeri bet ter organ
ed than the other two f ields.
The va.rious state-, of
course h,ve their safety agencies an.d their safety codes.
the United 9tates Covernrent there is a bureau that had
.'.one some work aloncr, the line of formulating safety standards.
I think that principally through the cooperation
of the Trorkr,en's Compensation Commission quite a few codes
rere drawn up by the Pureau of Labor qtandaris.
s that it
Vra
tO
our best
t-
It seemed
0•• to cooperate very
close7..y with the Pureau of Labor c'tandards, aryl. they agreed
to the,t plan.
Then a.nother agency that 11 very important in the field
Sf safety is a non-flovernmental a.gency, the TIRtional r-'afety
council.
"re ,appealei to then. for coo per a t io n, as they
1.-ave ?..mor..fr their members experts and people interested in
safety throuctout the country.,
Chey very willingly agreed
59
to appoint a committee to cooperate with un and also with
the Rureau of Labor qtandards.
That group will be mainly
responsible for the development of safety codes.
In the field of industrial hygiene the situation, an
well as the proclamation of the President, pointed in one
irection -- straight toward the public health 9erv1ce,
which, as you know, is well organized, %nd is one of the
most eff ic lent lovernment agencies.
There again we found s splendid spirit of cooperation.
The r'ubl ic T.Teml.th Thrvice, or, rather, the Treasury
r apart-
ment, agreed to detail to our service sufficient personnel
to man the industriml hygiene section, anc',.rr. P. J. Lanza
was detailed to take charge of that perticuler work, and
associated with him will be Dr. c7elby.
The third field that we had in mind was that of -- it
i. very difficult to find a narre that exactly suiterand we
started out with labor administration(in a broad
sense, or a narrow sense.
The responsibility of the em-
ployer does not cease with s hirinfr and firing", and the
securinc,
, of materials and machinery
in t'ne preparation for
manufacturing, but it ouTht to go further:
it ought to take
into conlideration that human eLiment thb.4 comes into in-
dultry.
.- pEtrt, Sf
while the human worker comes in here a:;
the machinery of proiuction, yet he is a very different
- rom the mechanical machine t'iat he finds
sS rt of machine f
there, gni there are particular
aws that must be worked
S ut arl observel in order to ret the most efent production
from that labor.
l'here, too, we tried to secure coopera-
tion with thoge who had been developincr
fiald of em-
ployment management since the war began, a,n1 again we found
the most hearty coo-,eration there.
In order tc, shorten the prograr- thiFi afternoon and to
leave time at the other end for di3cussicin, we decided to cut
doTn our part of the procrram; and we will noT hear from Pr.
oelby, lho is in charge of the Industrial Fygiene r7ection.
qelby:
Madan nhairman, ladies and gentlemen, I
wish to ',le perfectly in harmony with the spirit which has
been manifested here, and I desire to express a ipirit of
cooperation.
I ricl not know whether the Chairman h Ft,9
oriranization
].
to 1I
you of the
tt, in new livision in the United Ptates Pub-
, 7-Tea71.th rlervice or not, but before I start the to_Pic
I hlve
presnt to you I want to mention briefly t'ne fact
that there is bein•-: orfran izei in tbe TTnitect qtates Public
1_ I
Health oervice to act in cooperation with the working Condition
ervice of the Labor l'epartrrent a division of In-
dustrial Iferlicine and Hyrjene, the purpose of which will be
to cooperate and assist in the promulgation of better conditions which relate to and concern the health of the employed. people.
Ae I said before, :v1shinrr, to be thorourrhly in harrony
with this spirit of cooperation, I extend to you the assistance and the help and the best will- en of this nc3N1y organized division of the 'United clates Public Health
rvice.
It
is entirely at your command.
There has just been completed a
PtUl. r
f the medical
departments of 170 in1uc7.4trial establishments selected chiefly because of the fact that they were kno.sn more or leas
locally and rttrre nationally, .becaule of the fact that they
.
had advanced rather beyond the ordinary industria/ concern
in matters of me,-3.1cal and lurrr,iscal attention to their enploves.In 7ra,kin7 this study certain facts have become evident,
or, rather, impressions concernint.i.. the use and application
of the physical examination of seekers after employment.
think it may be stated as a premise that the physical exami-
nation is fundamentally a public health work.
It ig in a
sense an inventory of the inciividualtn conAit ion, it being
a known fact that no one can relieve condit ions of which he
hi no knowledge.
The purpose of the physical ,...xarviinat :ion, therefore,
from the stanlpoint of the public hen:7.th ran if", to ,, scertain
the facts, awl, having, ancert.lned the facts., io he able to
tormrds their correction?
proceel
mhe r e qui ts of the exam inat ion
of th ,3 f ir fit drafted
men demonstrated clearly and concluqivoly, I think, to the
public the fact that a ver7 1r
paired to a certain extent.
perrArtarre of us are im-
I think
he percentage of
defects that dilqual ified the yotmg men betwten the acr,es of
21 and 31 from the privi1er7es of mil itrtry 9ervice was something like thirtycne.
That is, apr.,rcx
tely one-third
of the younr men of our nition, among whom you would expect
to find the very best posnible physt0A,1
impaired.
r it io fl,
t:r e
It is tIleref:.•%re llcaJ. to n.8,Tume that wo, for
example. tl-lole of no here today, are
pire1 tu a L;reater
extent than the Irirrrou 9 77ounc.7 rif.11 of' our nation.
To carry thin a
tttle further, rye
F.re
reprecentative,
I think, of the average pernon who in in in'Auf.try; that in,
63
we are no more healthy than the average person in industry.
There are goinp. into the industries people ,vho are entirely
unaccustomed to industrial work, as you very well know, men
and women from tl.e less minful occupations, clerical occupations an:I things of that sort; they are going into the
mills and factories anl plants of various kinds in order to
make a hifter wage, entirely without knowledge of their
physical capacity to do the tasks which they apply for.
The
purpose of the physical examination in the industries, I
wish to repeat, is entirely to ascertain the facts, in order
that the physiaians may assist in the proper placement of
these applicants for employment; not for their rejection.
It is also for the purpose of Iscertaining the facts in order
that the physician may intelligently assist the workmen in
correcting these defects.
It is also for the purpose of
enabling the physician to supervise those who are impaired
In order that they may continue to gain a living wage.
'"hose are the three purposes of the physical examine...tion, and the only purpose that we will recognize; that is,
the proper placement of the men and the supervision Intellip.ently by the physician.
Unfortunqtely, the physical examination as it is general-
64
ly conducted. represents to the employe nothing more than an
opportunity for rejection.
It represents to the employer
nothincr more than an opportunity to reject unfit applicants
for employment.
He secures also a list
I am going
to use a medical term -- of pathological coniitions which
means just as much to the employer as it does to us vrho are
here today.
S'Ohe employer, generally speaking, secures
no benefit from the physical exam inat ion as at the present
time conducted, unless it be the exclusion of impaired applicants, a thing whidh at the present time it does not
wish or does not seek.
'The result is that physical exami-
nations are being discarded in some industries which have
been accustomed to requiring them.
I deplore.
That is a setback which
It will be extremely difficult to persuade
these men to restore physical examinations after the war
conditions are over.
vet I will confess that the phy-
sical examination is absolutely essential if properly applied
and I consider it necessary in times of war when production
is urgently needed, even more necessary than in times of
peace.
Tow,
at.
I am going to set up something for you to throw
I do not claim originality for this idea; in fact, I
do not cl.aim to be its parent at all; but there has been
ome talk and
9 rn e
thought among those who are particular-
ly interested in seeing rhysical examinations properly applied and properly used, because it is certainly worth
while.
There has been some thought among these as to a
plan which can be very generally applied and made effective
in the use of the physical examination.
Rut before proceeding with any remarks about this
plan 7: want tr point out the further fact that the physical
examination does not reach all applicants for employment.
It reache-7 only those who apply in (the 1,.rge industries or
it
those industries which require as a condition of employment ,
A.
' the men that move from one enand as a ratter of fact,
tabl iehment to another which require physical examinations
e re-examined at unnecessar ily frequent int erval eft. and
that inclu lel expense to the ultimate consumer, of course.
There is a fourth objection to the present plan of physical
and that is the fact that tl.:e informa-
tion which is secured is not made available for public welfare
mbere is a vast amount of very valuable information
which is being secured but buried in the minor departments
of these industries which should he made available for the
public good.
This plan which is proposed and as to which I hope you
will offer suggestions
provides for the extension of the
present employment servi,_v to include the physical examination
3
one of its functions.
I think a N.rery logical thing,
this beinr,7 made a function of the employment service.
That
would ne,cesqitate first of all the standardization of standard employment for all jobs.
That vras il:luatrated by a
gentleman here yesterchy who.3e name I
o not recall.
He
referred to an operation' of a machine shiciI. fills bags with
sugar, 31:- pounds to each one.
The operator reaches over
and has to lift the bag and put in the contents.
Three
and a half pounds of sugar is s very small quantity, but
coming eighteen per minute it is a considerable task.
one
'Sou
ci
Any-
, h strength to
think that it Noull not require tru l
]it 31 pounds.
irhe way to allertl.in the Qtrength requir-
ed in a job of that kind i- to measure scientifically the
strength required in that individual i
5
up that 31 pound.
reaching over to pick
ck, and it must be ramembered that in
doing so she lifts her body from the waist up in adition
to the 3-1 pound, antl that is PI factor in the strength required for that particular job.
I have gone into detail
67 .
on that to illustrate the necessity of standarilzincr,te
effort required in jobs, becauno you cannot properly place
You can
people until you know the effort that is required.
ascertain the individaial's effort AThen they apply the capacity
for effort and then fit it to a job that ',,hoy are ph3rnicnl1y
capable of performing.
That necesitatea a
tanc!ard lirt
of lob requirements relating espacially to the physical capacity neoeloary in order to accomplish t'rat work.
second, a preparation of
a
taniarl
physical examination
blank which is in itself a tremendous task.
RI9ociltion
It entails,
It entails the
of the melical staff ,Yith this eoployment of-
fice, iri . ere the individual, when he app2.ie 3 for employment,
77.il 1 he given a physical ?.ex.treination.
wit))
A phyligian will
employment manager as to the proper place-
ment of tf,e man, taking irr:o consideration the physical
capacity and possibly thl temperament.
Vvi then there must
be leined some slheme whereby the factory physician ray
.ist the emobtain tb ii inforT.ation in o tier tJ.,at he may 11,
ploye in regain 1n' his norma1 conl it ion if h
be defec tive,
or maybe arsit hr'i in getting th3 vary best out of himself
that is possible to do under his
condition.
Last of all, there must be a means devised whereby this
68
information can be collected and male availahi-; for the
public welfare, much ae we do now with our
as
statistics
and with our vital statistics.
An I said in the beginning, that is limply a mar7ge tion.
It mi ,ht be too revolutionary, yet it eeern to me to be somethin7 a little bit in advance of what we have at the preoent
time, anii. it r^rty be the basis, eventual)y, of working out
nome scheme whereby thin very neceniary meanure of phy9ical
examination may be satinfactorily promulgated in the interegt
I hope,
of public health.
ag
I
SEO.d.
before, you will throw
(Applause.)
I\T:or-an (,Yebranka):
hsve had experience with
r)xaminations at different corporations.
ronie, for example.
Take rail-
we have used it in times past, 'out it
qay that a man hal worked for a
wag ivied for n.
company for yes.rs and then they have hal ptysical exarinationn incturNrsted in that cleptarttnent, and that man will look
just an healthy
EIS
he ever did when he came there.
examined, anci. then the doctor says perhaps t..:ere
wron
with him heart, or nomethin
ioes not oiet any lob.
him.
Fe is
nomething
tn that effdct. 'The man
That was one way of not employing
Of course that condition does not ,)
hile
J pj!a1ilI
69
we are in war and there is work for everybody, but when reorrranization takes place after the war it will have that effect, I believe, on the employes and the manufacturers ftvail
themctelves of using that when they do not want certain erployea to work for them.
That haebeen true in the pant.
I hope it will not be in the future.
Mrs. Edson (California):
Poctor, before netting this
extensive plan starte1 in the Public Employment c'ervice,
what physicians wouli make your phynical exarinations?
rould
they be the company doctors or would they be Public Fealth off' ic ial s?
Publ ic Fealth physicians.
rr
Edson:
•
erni r an
halPI;
There are orly certain places that they
generally, throughout the United qtates.
Pr. qelby:
Yes; I remlize that th?.t will be one of the
thins to be worked out.
Mrs. Edson:
I are from Cn.lifornia, and we have an
excessive number of Christian 7.0.1entists in Cal iforn la,
there they have fought all kinds of public health
nd
ealurea.
For initance, we have a simptle scheme of social health insurance that we hope to put over by constitutional amendment
this fall, and their opposition i
SO
great
out there that
70
it will probably be repealed.
I was wonderinp; if you had
taken into consileration that sort of opposition that you
probably meet with throughout the country.
Another thing is, do you feel that the Public Frrployment
Pervice as at present organized is sufficiently stable to
put through such a very important power as this?
Pr. qe3by:
Us
always.
Of course, Christian science we have with
I speak respectfully of them; even so, I am an
enemy to the very end in the interest of the public health
snd nothin r else.
I do not see that the Christian qcien-
tists could have any effect upon a movement of this kind,
any more than they will upon the public health movement in
general.
We have in the United States a very well or7an-
izel plan for the protection of the public health, that is,
so far as its local, st?te and national agencies are concerned, and I see no reason why these local, state and national
n.cPenoies
for the protection of the public health cannot be
used in this connection.
It mirrht men, perhaps, the
emplorTent of an additional medical off icer in each locality,
but probably nothing more.
As I said in the beginning, however, this
scheme.
19
purely a
re have not worked out the detail s, by any means.
71.
I realize that the present plans of the United c'tates
EmployTent qervice may not prove to be permanent.
Yet, I
pm convinced that where employment bureaus have been eltabl ished. in cities, or in cities under
tate management or cooper-
ation with the locality, that the satisfaction has been so
ria t
that the employrent agency
is a permanent feature,
and undoubtedly, beinq a permanent feature, there gill be
sone perianent means whereby it may be organized an
one
carried
Phil work vrould be carried on in conjunction with the
or7an1zation which would be created to handle it.
gr.. Edson:
How would you expect to follow up a parti-
cular examination?
The examination would be taken entirely
Pr. Qelby:
out of the hands of the employer.
1 arn confident that he
would be perfectly delighted to get rid of it.
Mrs. Hoskins:
How do you plan to f01 1om up that exam-
mat ion?
mile information would be conveyed to the
nr. Qelby:
plant physician in some way.
Mrs. Hoskins:
Pr. c-lelby:
vou do have 1. plant physici'..n?
oh, yes, to take care of the injuries and
sanitation, and that sort of thing.
I presume that this
72
plan would necensitate the prdparation of a card which Would
be r-iiren to the employe, good for a certain period of time,
possibly a year.
In that way he would get a re-examina-
tion at leant yearly.
(Iernon
vork):
In connection with examine..
tions made in the plants, do you find any abuse there that
you care to speak of in connection with this plan?
Pr. ''!-31by:
No, I do not: and the reason I do not
I do not mean for a minute but ewhat this has been abused;
in fact, I have personally seen evidence in my own practice
prior to thF. tire when I ',As attached to the United rita.tes
°ubliCealth c'erv ice.
Put in my travels I visited the
pl,irsicians almost exclusively, although I saw certain others
-..then I felt that it was necessary to obtain information
from thee, an:3., naturally, I got the phyniliants standpoint.
1,Tr. Gernon:
fre i57 nothing that there has been so
much opposition to on the part of workers, as physical
examination, but, personally, I would like to see physical
examination
if it coull be properly conducted, but I do
not agree with it for the abusesthat have been injected in\
it.
to
75 found in our recent investi ation of the substitution
73
of women for men, physical examination of the women, and
matters of the most confidential nature left to the employment agent for the benefit of everybody to read in the plant.
Things like that cannot be permitted.
siderable trouble.
It would cause con-
You have to be very careful of the
physicians that handle the examinations, and I am afraid
that if you are going to have the public record as made there
in the public employment agency, you would have more opposition than you have to the present system.
Dr. e!elby:
In reply to that, we all acknowledge that
the present system is not satisfactory.
Under the proposed
system that information would be guarded just as closely as
the information which goes to your health officer.
("peaking with the frankness which is permitted of
physidians, I am going to say that venereal diseases are being reported at the present time, especially in the vicinity
of our Ar7y camps.
That is information of a very private
nature which most people are thoroughly ashamed of.
All of
it is being reported and handled through our system for the
collection of vital statistics.
There is no reason why the
inform° tion which is secured through the physical examination
cannot be treated equally confidentially and through a
74
similar means which of course would relieve any possible
objection in that direction.
Mr. Lynch (New vork):
Is not the great proposition
that we have before us the need of physical. examination?
7r. Pelby:
Without doubt.
Mr. Lynch:
And is it not possible, of course, to
raise any number of objections to anything that is needed?
The objection to physical examination is because ttie employer
has been conducting it in many instances for selfish purposes; in many other instances with good purposes in view.
I
do not think that all employers are doing it for selfish
purposes, by any means; but those who do it for selfish purposes are like all the rest of that class of society, that
their actions cause all the trouble.
I am in favor of the physical examination of wage
earners.
I do not see how anybody connected with compen-
sation work can reach any other conclusion than that there
should be physical examination of wage earners, and that the
wage earner himself should know what is dangerous for him
to engage in.
surely, it shows' no particular interest in
the wage earner to keep him in ignorance of some disease that
he has, and then permit him to go to work at some process in
75
a factory that means certain d.eath.'
have those things
passing before the New York qtate Industrial Commission
4141.
80,000 compensation accidents every year, and a number of
them coming before the Commission where timely T.varning would
1.1re prevented the accident or prevented death.
If We are
going to conjure up a lot of ob.., ectione to physioal examination by public author it les, why we. can stay hc.re
Neel( and
do it, but I think the F.7eat thing is, fir 5.t, that '‘ve ehould
have it, and second, that it should be l_one by public authorities that the people can recto?). if' it is abused,third, that
if we have it it .- gill eventually lead to health insurance for
the wage-earners individually.
Mr. cltewart:
(Applause.)
I woull like to ask
Lynch how many
of the 60,000 casee coming before the Compeneation Poard
,vere the result of the health conditions
rS3rsica
t ion at the time of th e employment of the per son in Jur ed.
/fr. Lynch:
I cannot tell. you the exact number, because
I do not believe we made any compilation of that kind.
are somewhat
A.
every other public of'ice;
we have a number of
things to do and we cannot do all the things that should be
done; but there are enough of them comine. before the Commission alone.
These are appeals from the .
.1 )eputy Commissioners.
76
That is comparatively few cases to show, but in the agf7egate there are quite a large number of them.
Mr. Ptewart:
this.
"Vr. Lynch, the point I want to make is
I object absolutely to the coupling up of the state-
ment of 60,000 accidents with the quest ion of medical examination before employment.
A man might get his finger cut
Sff or his hand cut off, or he may have had a weak lung when
he was employed ten years before.
Fre may have flat feet.
Put unless you have connected in some way the physical or
health condition of the man at the time of his employment
buzzwith the fact that he got his hand cut off on a/saw , or assurfing that a brakeman got his arm betvleen the bumpers, why,
to say that physical examination is goincr to reduce accidents
which are not matters of the individual's health, is coupling
up two things that do not couple, to my mind.
Put those that I have in mini are coupled,
Mr. Lynch:
and we see them -Mr. qtewart:
Mr. Lynch:
Not 60,000 of them in New York.
nh, of course not.
I said we had a total
of 60,000 compensated accidents passing in review before the
COMM iss ion.
Of course those 60,000 are not associated with
medical examinations, but there are enough of them to show
77
that medical examinations are a necessity.
Dr. leeker:
Madam Chairman, may I ask a question of
the Doctor?
I believe thoroughly in physical examinations and also
in health insurance, so vr. Lynch and I cannot get up any
argument on that score unless somebody else will take the
opposing side.
That I want to ask is a little more parti-
cular3y about the plan enunciated by the Doctor.
I am
not arguing for the last word on that sub:iect, but if the
Public Pealth 9,ervice is to conduct the physical examination in all the plants of this country, it is quite some
job that it will have on its hands.
Do you contemplate
socializing the medical profession?
no you contemplate tak-
ing under the Public Health rl'ervice practically every
practicing physician throughout the country?
Recause that
is what it will mean if you are going to handle this job and
going to handle it effectively.
Are you ready to answer
that question, or do you pass it up?
Dr. oelby:
I can ans-rer that question very quickly by
saying that we have not got that far in our plan.
rr. 'ffeeker:
Pr. c'elby:
what are you going to do about it?
The way in which this has been submitted
78
,
1 ere today is not official.
I rlo not spea,k with authority.
I speak as one who 13 interested in this and who is aware of
the faot tha,t some people are coniidering the advisability,
perhaps, of beginnin,7 to organize a system of this character.
IT0Tever, what you say is perfectly true, and it will mean
to a certain extent the socialization of medicine; but,
ladies a.ncl gentlemen, that 13 accomplished today.
Absolute-
ly, the medical profession on a united front is firtting for
the Tinited Ptgtes of America, anl there is not a physician
in the United c'tates but who is ROCialized to the very acme
o
so c ial sm
country.
0.1r
1,e ig wininp
: to give up. his life for his
(Applause•)
Aryl if as the result of this war
soc ializat ion of medicine follows, the med ical profession
is ready to be socialized.
Dr. Meeker:
(Applause.)
All I have to say is that I do not like
tS throw a wet blanket on the proceedings, but I have just
talked with physicians who do not talk social izat ion at all,
who oppose anything that approaches cutting down the private
fees of physicians.
Now, I would like to know if Capt. Reiley is still. here.
I would
appeP.xed?
to risk him a question.
Pas
Peiley
79
He was afraid you were going to ask him,
Mr. Mulready:
(Laughter.)
and he has iTone.
Is it contemplated in these exam„Mr. Gram (Oregon):
'.
inations of employes, or re-examinations, that the employe
pa3r a fee for such examination?
Oh, no,/ no.
.
Mr e Gram:
It is contemplated that it will be free?
Yes, sir.
Dr. 'elby:
I would like to ask the Doctor if it
Mr. McLaughlin:
ig the intention under this plan to turn the impaired employe out, or insist upon his go in Fr to the ho spital?
Pelby:
I think that that should be done.
In fact,
that is being' done in Chicago at the present time, through
a pr ivate agency.
They have what they call a. centrs1 dig-
panlary there; I think that 11 the name of it.
All these
employes sre sent there for reconstruct ion or rehab ilitat ion.
Mr. McLaughl in:
as I see it, to
go
It is not much satisfaction to a man,
before an exarrininrs• physician in the
Public Fmployment Pureau and be told that he is not physically
fit to take a position, and then be turned out on the ,Norld
to earn his oirn living.
If you do that in the public em-
ployment service you are sounding the ci.eath knell of the
PO
iervice from the :lump.
11/.9. c7eriple:
That is my can -lid opinion.
(Pennsylvania)
I am interested very
I would like to ask Pr. clelby whether he
much in that.
out such
thinks it is practicable or possible to work
and that they may
standards for the proper employment of men
codes are isbe issued in the form of codes as other state
a system of examsued, tying them up on the other hand with
mat ion blanks.
1 You mirrht say that would guide, if the
ary phy7octor will excuse me, what we might call the ordin
In other words, is it possible to use this system
sician.
in such
R
fcr
w9y as to standardize employment of women,
al employments?
the safety of women going into unusu
Pr. Qelby:
I cannot speak entirely with authority.
I wasspeaking with Prof. Frederick q. Lee in New York the
other day, who is probably the leading man in the United
(tates on studies of fatigue, and he has been usin7 what is
res
known technically as a spring balance test, which measu
with a fair clegee of accuracy the strength of the individual.
I see no reason why that spring balance test cannot
be used in determining the average strenp:th required in the
operation.
saving learned the average strength required
in a certain operation, the ascertainment of the average
81
strength of the person who is proposed to be placed on that
operation can be compnred and be set down definitely.
I see
no reason why that cannot be worked out.
Mrs, qemple:
You think it would be possible to work
out a code governing the rea9onable and proper employment of
women on the basis of their average strength?
Dr. qelby:
Yes.
Mr. Norman Nebraska):
Is it the intention to take the
women and the men and make them stand this test, just the
same as you would test a locomotive hauling so many thousand
tons over the railroad?
I do not believe in testinr out a
woman or a man to see just ho -v much they can lift and then
keep up that pace, day in and day out in a factory, for in a
few months they are down and out.
I might be wrong, but as an
individual I do not believe in testing human beings out the same
as you do a locomotive.
Mrs. c'emple (Pennsylvania):
was not along that line.
I will say that my question
My question was more as to testing
to see what they might do safely.
Pr.
el.by:
Mr. Frayne:
Yes, madam; I agree with you.
I do not believe we are ming to get any
physical examination requirement during the present war period.
82
I believe that it is going to be a long time before we do
get
them,
when it does come, which I believe it will, it
will have to be more carefully worked out and thought out
than anything that has been submitted up to the present time.
While there have been several plans suggested and promoted,
th3re have been many reasons why they should no
ted,
be accep-
come have been given here by previous speakers.
There are many dangers that surround the workers in
connection with a regulation of physical examination.
am not speaking now in opposition to it, because I feel
that when the time comes when we must have a physical examination
as
n means of employment, it is going to come,
but I- think the worst possible time to promote it is in
war times.
re are planning now to rehabilitate the dis-
abled soldiers and sailors who have been injured in the war,
and those in industry, men with an arm or a leg off, and
often two arms lnd a leg, and find something for them to do;
and when it comes to regulation now in war time, when
everyone is trying to get into some kind of productive employment, it seems to me that a great handicap would surround
any attempt to get out any regulation that might be satisfactory in any way.
83
I am not taking the position that it is not going to
come, but if I am here when they are making the plan I am
going to try to be in it and have sometbin'r to say0
we do want to prevent, first, the blacklisting of men and
women who may be listed by one plant being used in another
to prevent them from getting employment.
I want also to
prevent any regulation that might use them as a basis of
machinery rather than as a human being.
And, third, I
i"ant to see a system entirely controlled by the United
qtates Government, so that if I want to have a physical examination I would go to the proper point designated and get my
card filled up in 9uch manner as may be agreed upon, and.
carry thst for the period for which it is issued, certifying
that I am sound to a certain degree or a certain percentage.
I will carry that, and when I seek employment, along with
my application I will certify with my card that I stood a
certain physical test, and if they do not employ me they do
not get the card.
I get it, and I keep it in my possession,
so that it cannot be used against me as a blacklist or any
other means of depriving me of employment, and if I do get
employment I will only he possibly a 50 per cent efficient
employe and be paid accordingly.
84
the noctor said,
9,
moment ago, if men from twenty-
irty-one years of age showed 31 per cent def ic iency,
or e
I th ink vie would be veigq.ortunate in some of our mun it ion
plants anl other placei if that test .vcas put into effect
just now
we have men and woren working in places 50 or
10 or even 75 years of 17e, doing quite offective and efIt is badly needed at this time, and it seems
t' inient oiork.
to re that while the question is an educat ional one, one of
7reat importance, one that we might ts.ke home to cons ider,
it is not one that is po ing to be settled, in my judgment,
dur inrr the war, and possibly for a lonr. t::me after that.
veeker:
1 want to get ahead of the doctors there.
They knocr c,o much more about th is than I do, and., I want to
spetlk from trt-1 stan(lpo int of' the layman.
po ge of meci foal exam inat ions an
I think the pur-
phy ica3 exam inat ions is
e s into posit ions ths,t they can occupy
to put the cl
t.!-. safety to th,qr health.
That is the rho] e purpose of
righ t syst ern of morlics.1 and physical exam inat ion of the
k er
Lynch, you agree with me, do you no t?
"Kr. Lynch:
nr. Meeker:
rer tainly.
Let me tell this exper ience.
In
meeting
at which I was pre lent last spr ing one of the medical men at
85
tbat meeting got up end objected to medical examination and
phyqioal examination of workers on exactly the ground that
is
this war; we need
vr. wrayne has taken this afternor,n
employment.
I was tickled almost to death when another
medical man got up, a medical man serving one of the greate9t corporations in this country, a corporation that specializes on physical examinations; they take no employes without
a thorough medical and phy9ical examination -- and this medical man said, "Pecause we are at wstr we need a medical examination more than ever before."
pointed out the savin
And he went ahead
Ti
to their own plant by their system
of medical exam ins.t ion.
'
1'e cannot emphasize this side of it too stronp;ly.
employer has abused medical examimations.
abusedlots of things
a long while ago.
The
The railroads
It is time we for-
got eome of them an:I_ went ahead and aesisted the railroa.ds.
A great many men and a great many institut ions have abused
gor ts of things in tines past, but, for the love of
Mike, let us get together and get rid of the abuees of
excellent things and go ahead and prevent them.
If ever
we needed physical examinations, we need ther now, a,nd now ie
the time for
430rt1 e
action to be taken to put the physical exam-
R8
inrition on the ms,p s.nd put it on there thoroughly.
-
The Poctor spoke of the possibility that the United
Pts,tes Employment Pervice would not be permanent.
If any
of you think that it will not be permanent, then you have
got a good fight on with me.
mei
It will be perma.nent, believe
Nobody will consent to go back to the condition of
chaos that existed at the time the Federal Employment Pervice ;vas inaugurated.
Yes, it is abused snd it has imper-
fections, but it is going to be put on the map permanently.
I do not know whether nhysical exaxnination will be
hookeci up with the employment service or not, and I do not
care, but phylical examination must be put on the map as a
war measure, and then it must be retained on the map as a
peace measure.
(Applause.)
Mr. Allen (Tennessee):
I wish to say tha.t I myself
am not entirely convinced that I would like to give my consent to the adoption of physical examination.
I recognize
that it is a progressive scienoe,we may all be educated
up to that some day.
I am sorry, however, that really in
the beginning of a campaign the quention of physical examination hag been coupled with the United
Pervice.
tates EPIployment
The g,entleman sugrrested just now that it meant
87
the destruction of the United otatel Employment
erv ice
I
bel ieve, from the standpoint of many of us, speaking from
experience, it would rather mean the destruction of health
examinations.
There cannot at this time be .any reason for
combining these two questions.
experiments.
In my opinion they are both
'ye all need education before we can become
convinced that either one or the other is a success
You
cannot drive it into the heads of men who have been studying
labor questions and sociological questions all their lives
that either one of these things should be accepted without
question, brit we are willinr to give our support to efforts
to bring about perfection either in health examinations or
in the United Qtates Employment Service.
%t I think the
better plan would be to adopt a method of circulating the
reports that pertain to health examinations arnona the people
of the country in the different sections who
Ft re
practioally
or nearly ignorant on it so that they may become acquainted
with the featurep of the question and may study it among them—
selves.
I believe that if I were to propoGe this proposition in
Tennessee -- and I have no doubt that there are many other
Ptates in the same position -- and it were put up to the
88
people interested there for a decision at this time, it would be
immediately condemned.
But that does not mean that it has
no inherent merit or that it will not in time impress itself
upon the minds of the people so that it will be accepted.
Many of the great institutions of today have begun that way.
qo I just merely arise in order to ask that there may be
among the people of the country a campaign of education conquoted in order that they might be better acquainted with
the merits of this proposition before it is undertaken to
couple it with the United Ptates Employment c'ervice and
force it upon the minds of the representatives.
nr. waters:
May I venture to state that I think the
most important aspect of this subject hai not yet been
touched upon?
lre have considered the possible advantage
to the employer in having the physical examination.
we
have considered the advantage to the employe by being properly adjusted to his work.
n'e have not considered what I
consider more important than either one, and that is the
protection of one employe from his fellow employes.
In the matter of contagious diseases we usually recognize
that some control should be exercised.
That can only be corn-
p7etely exercised through a physical examination or a medi-
R9
cal examination, if you prefer that term.
There is more, however, than tho lueetion of injuring
health.
Thiq subject la important from tl-e 9ety stand-
which he
point, •eCq,11Pia the man who 11 undertaking a job for
limb of
ip not phylically competent pri-ty injure the life or
a fellow
workman.
There are plenty of occupations in
the ,- Iorkehop anl flotory 7:here that
Pt
a.t e rn en t ie true.
If
similar piece of
you have 7,, rttn orerating a crane, or c3OPIC
rac inery, he may turn out to be an epileptic, and at some
mortient, cannot perform the function that he shovld perform, and
he rriay :1,eopard1zc the life or
imb of a fellow e,Yrploye.
It s.ems to me that any employe has the right to dethat hi
fellow workmen be subjected to a me1icp...71 exam-
in.i.tion; and in hairing that ri7ht he is himself bound to
unier.<7.o
limilar examination to see that he is not a
hazard to the men or ,,rorren workin,c7 with him.
"rs. Parnum:
I have been thinkinc- very hard on this,
n.ni I am ote of thole wl- o believe thp,t a person iboul d be
placed in a. position beflt fitted for hip.
I find myself
for .
arreelnir very F!trotIgly with tholo who hnve been speaking
a .crrn.lual educational reverent amonr the people.
iinfnr-
tunately, the masqes of people .are tremendous]. y
jud iced
pr e
history.
against physicsi examinations because of past.
"te
could be forgc,)tten at
Tric,
.,tht all be p,:lad if all of the past
must face is that it is not
once, but the actual fact that we
for.crotten by tl,e rna.sses of people.
Thysicians have been in the employ of corporations,
the
thrS wing all but the very strongest and youngest out on
said by other veakers,
street for so long, and, as has been
other ways, and so
the physical examination has been ueed in
there is
very wide prejudice against it.
You all know
other excellent thing
that the same prejudice agsinst any
in industry has always been raised.
As Mr...rirandeis so
wonderfully said in the remorial meeting to Taylor, if efficienc7,r had bermn on a derrocratic basis and. it 1-:ad been
efficiency by consent, we never should have had the tremenprobably never
dous prejudice against efficiency, and we
efficiency
would hs.ve had the foolish and absurd so-called
e?cp.ertg who have further prejudiced the people against
efficiency.
In the g
e way
a
prejudice arrainst physicians has
machine
been built up, and now that we need this huran
trrrendously
f ind him
has his prejudices.
somewhat danizerous mach ine.
He
They are long-etsnding grievances and
im•
wrnnms, and we cannot c'eerfull3r say, "Let us forget it,"
find that he is go ing to forget it.
Po I should be in favor of te physical work being
done by the consent of the workers as it, for instance, is
done in the clothing trades, in ,,evers1 cities where the worker has been gTadually educated to re-1 ize the necesqity for
it, from his own 1-eason, and from a social reason, and has
something to do with choosing the physician who makes the
examination, choosing a ran who is a human being and who is
In other -vords, there
incorrect on Industrial problerf.3.
is physical examination by consent of the worker.
Otherwise, I think ye shall have to ,:ro,
we will find,
very slowly, or
s Mr. Frayne has said, that this huran
machine will prove a very da.ngerous machine if we try to
physically examine him r:ithout his consent.
Yrs. Edson (California):
I would like to ask if it
has been your experience in the past thnt the worker, if
he has the chance, always picks out the very best physician.
That has not been done, I am sure
larnum:
industry.
The case I speak of is in the clothing
"'here the worker has been consulted he has some-
thing to say.
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93
woul
like to read from a paper that I have here con-
. the lines Sfsta
taining some ideas that I have alonp.
ion.
qtandardization has been advoca,ted for
P.
number of years
and has been carriel out locally, if I may be permitted to
use the terr in this case, by a number of qtate
Commissions
having authority over problems of accident prevention, by
insuranS. organizations, and by various technical organizations.
neir work is most pra.iseworthy but the work of
ing nat lona). standar dizat ion has been hampered by
accompl
their 1 im ited field.
A diver sity of standar ds cannot fail
to result in other than a waste of labor and material.
There
are as many as three different standards in operation in
9orie of these states.
zation.
This can hardly be. called standardi-
7e may well asir ourselves at 7.;his juncture as to
what const itutes standar dizs,t ion.
s7afet,,, standards which will truly standaxdize safety
practices must include a number of es.,entials.
They must
f irst of al 1 be practical and must not be so conf ined in
scope or •
Iri id p..s to hamper the development of new s.nd
better processes, and due rerrard must be riven to the eccnomy
of operation.
The3r must afford the maximum protection with
94
They must be simple, complete and ex-
a minimum outlay.
plicit, and tht,y must be so comprehensive that they will
be as easy of application in Maine as in California.
It is only necessary to name the
reat variety of inter-
ests affected to be immediately convinced
RA
to the need of a
uniform set of standards.
First let us consider the nation as a whole.
At the
present time our industries are working at maximum capacity
turning out materials of war.
labor turnover.
ire are confronted with a huge
EffortH are now being directed in various
ways to reluce it.
what will be t: e relation of uniform
safety practices to the mi7ratory worker?
simple.
The answer is
If he meets the same practice, and the standard
must be high, in every state, there is no occasion for
9,
change of job in so far as this particular phase of the
problem has a bearing.
When it becomes known among the
workers that such a condition existo everywhere, his rental
attitude will change from a spirit of dissatisfaction which
is usually based on lack of know3e-'rre to a spirit of contentment.
That this condition is recognized by our government at
the present time is shown by an extract from a letter of the
95
(7ecretary of Labor.
He sald:
"The hurried development of new enterprises .and the
extension of existing plants to meet the need created by the
war necessarily tend to a less degree of care than exists
in time of peace with reference to workinr-, conAitions, but
at no time is it more essential to maintain throughout the most
essential industries workinr con.-litionfl which will enable
wage earnets to remain satisfied with their employment, so far
al one element 1
concerned, the delay and extravagance caus—
ed by an urine°e ssar ily large turnover."
rrom a somewhat different point of view the mip-ratory
Torker constitutes another argument in favor of uniform
standards.
If a liorkman hae become accustomed to machinery
the methods of safeguarding *A.& are entirely different
from those in his new environment, the hazard to the workman
is greatly increased.
Thus we may say with conviction then
that our migratory worker is an argument for uniform stan—
dards.
The next ar7urient in favor of standardization is the
economic 7.s.in to be Artivel from it.
Th e argument which I
am about to ,i,ake le bassi upon the accepted fact that accident
prevention has come to stay.
This means that T.,urchasers of
96
rni.cllinery sill insist in increasing nurfbers on the incorporation of spfety features in the original desig) of the
rnaci: ine
That this state of affairs is qn accepted fq.ct is
great* amount of macThinary and appAsncee
denced by
ict, arc now -301(1 only by reatlon of the: safety featur es
which are a, part OF their operation.
Exa,rples of these are
steal!! boil?.ra, '1..ectric switches, cirtain types of lathes,
and frechanical
finctrioal interlocks on railroad switches.
axiomatic that t.?
inkx)rporation of sa.fety features
in t'_le original design of the trachine Rill result in a fa.r
less cost tr) the buyer of the ma„cnine than if he is required
to safeflpard such ma.chines by purely plecertua.1 construction,
P,
form 0,.* prp.ctice which
poS r en.7- ineering awl. on it
acknosleciged. extremely
face shors short-sightedness.
1reat benefitl will accrue to the manufacture of machinery
al 90 •
The f inancial returns der Avel fron
otandardizad
type of avparatus should not be under-estirrated.
This ss,ving
is, of course, reflected in tl- e selling price tc, the con9117e .1'•
There in, bover, one instance Nhare -iecemeal construction is warrnnted; in fact the only conqtruction which is
97
possible; namely, the safeguarding of existing installation.
.41any of the safeguards for such construction are available
in manufactured form ready for installation.
For the eame
reaf3ons stated above industry should have a cruide to good
practice; a guide resulting from the cooperative study of
the problem.
It is undoubtedly ttue that the principles
S f safety are equally applicable to the safeguarding of
both existing installations and new types of machinery.
As
the standard mu st be based on these principles it necessarily
follows that the functioning of the safeguar ding must in
either case result in maximum of protection.
vie will by one
strS ke effect an economy which is impossible to estimate in
doll er
and cents.
Pew I bel ieve realize tt-,e mar7nitude of the outlay vfhich
is beinfr spent for safety devices on existing installations.
As an example allow me to cite the case of a compa,ny, one of
whose plants I recently visited.
something over fifty plants.
This company operates
I was informed that an expen-
diture of $1,000,000 had recently been authorized for safeguards in the plant visited.
Manir of these will, of course,
be made at the plant, but a great many will be purchased.
Th!is is one of many hundreds 5f 5lants supporting the
safety movements.
The economy that will accrue to these
companies thru standardization cannot be estimated.
A factory equipped with standard safeguards will necessarily join forces with the safety organization in the maintenance of an orderly aryl clean establishment so necessary
for the reduction of accidents.
Not only must .standards be formulated for safeguarding
maeines themselves but the arrangement of plant and of the
machines must be given attention.
This will insure an order-
liness an'l cleanliness which would not otherwise result from
haphazard construct ion.
One very important result of standardization will be
the gradual diminution of piecemeal safeguarding; that is
the safeguarding of exiting installation.
It is obviously
impossible in a great many cases of existing installations
to make a safeguard an integral part of the machine itself.
we therefore, lost at one stroke a principle of great value.
Designs which make it necessary to operate the safety device before the continuation of operation can proceed rive
the maximum of protection.
The effect of standardization on the rates of insurance
which are charged by the casualty insurance companies is
99
noteworthy.
It is a matter of common knowledge that casualty
insurance rates have been steadily reduced during the past
few years.
This is of course due to a betterment of the
physical condition of the plants in the country, even though
operated under widely different sets of standards.
It will not
be necessary to dwell on the effect of a mationa3 qtandard
on Insurance Rates as this can be seen at first glance.
The
economic benefits to the employer is of course apparent.
The insurance companies themselves are vitally concerned in this prob1em from the standpoint of making inspections.
At present there is continual conflict in the recommendations
of insurance inspectors and state inspectors due entirely to
difference in standards which they apply.
It has not been
long since even the insurance companies themselves were
ingf•ectinir under different standards.
This condition has
been remedied by the joint action of various rating bureaus in
establishing one standard for insurance companies.
Another important result of stu.dardization will be the
advent of a qeater amount of automatic machinery which are
noteworthy because of their fl'eater security to the worker.
The attendant economic advantage to the manufacturer because
of their use cannot be easily estimated but is at once appa-
100
rent.
There are a, Si
ma,ny arguments that could be advanc-
ed in favor of standards.
A. nwnber of gentlemen in the
audience I see have consult ed at various times about the
matter and are almost uniformly in favor of such standardization.
However, there is one very particular thing which
shI uld be brought out, and brought out strongly, and tha.t is
this -- it 071/1 be expressed by the .5 I- I have here:
"vrhat can be said as to the need of a uniform set of
standards by our administrative bodies?
a cod.e
The application of
nIractice must be followed up and the best method
of do ing gr eat vrork is thru our state factory inspectors and
Industrial Commission.
A truly na,tional standard will
result in the appl feat ion of much smoother administrative
machine,Ty than has been the case in the past.
Disagreement
will occasionally arise over the interpretation of standards.
Under present practice the administrative body making the
code or in many communities where no standards are adopted,
the factory inspector is the final arbiter.
Under a nation-
al code questions of this nature wil? be decided in the light
nationally accepted practice.
As an instance, an
example of a national cocle may be f5und in the National
101
ectrical qafety Corte, Bureau of qtandards Circular No.
54.
This code has been adopted in whole, or in part by
some eight states, and is under consideration by many
others.
an
A number of questions of interpretation have arisen
have been easily settled on submission to the Bureau.
The point which I wish especially to make here is this:
A
truly national standard can be secured only thru an agency
which can cooperate with all interests and can coordinate
their thourrhts and efforts.
This agency should be unbiased
in its opinions and decisions and should act only in an
advisory capacity, since only by such action can the decision be said to be based on purely economic snr.1 encrineering
principles.
It can be said without fear of dispute that one
of the reasons that the formulation of the National Electrical c'afety Code and its introduction into practice has met
with such signal success has been due to the purely advisory
capacity in which the Bureau acts.
It is generally conceded that no administrative body
is intentionally unfair.
If such bodies have available
a na.t:_i.onal standard decisions will be more uniform and fairer than would otherwise be the case.
There will be a de-
creasing tendency to establish a national precedent tbru
102
legal decisions are usually based on precedent, which precedent miFrht easily be based on purely local practice.
"Another
reat advantage of national standardization
is the reliability which can be placed on the ultimate work,
especially if it is undertaken by a -sell established and unbiased body.
tand ar d s formulated by such a body will be
they are even
put in practice by individual companies before
submitted for mandatory action to the various states.
This
means that the desired effect wil3 become noticeable from
two to four years sooner than it otherwise would.
An excel-
lent example of this is the above referred to National
Electrica' c!afety Code.
This code is even now not recom-
mended for adoption by the Pureau, yet it is being widely
used by utilities and manufacturers and has already effected
standardization in the electrical industry.
"A word regarding the method of procelure in formulating and introducing a national standard into general practice will perhape not be out of place here.
The key-note with
which this work must be conducted 1,3 by cooperation with all
the intereQts affected and the coordination of the thoughts
arvd efforts of the individuals and companies interested.
There are five main classes of interests who will be vitally
103
interested in the work, narely: industry, workmen, engineering societies anl technical organizations, insurance organizations, state departr,ents of labor and state factory inspectors, and Vie various federal departments and bureaus.
"The national izat ion o-F safety methods and practices
shS uld be brought about by cooperative means snd the body
charged with this work should have no legal status whltever
nitkax in the formulation.
They should stand on merit alotte.
This is distinctly a, governmental work.
That it is a monu-
mental task cannot be doubted but asqlu.ance must be given
tl-at it will be promoted without danger of lapses in a
vity.
It will be, real ized that tTh e in it ial preparat ion of
a set of standards is only a beginning of the work.
It
must be developed t.tnci. revised from time to time and its
application in practice followed up making interpretat.ions
whenever necessary.
"In closing I shall appreciate your indulgence while I
quote from• speech by qecretary Redfield which shows clearly
the urgency of the situation:
"'I think it may be truly said that two facts become increasingly evident in connection with our industries as the
war situat ion develops in th is country.
The f ir st is that
F.
104
every industry whose products can contribute directly or indirectly to carrying on the war will be operated under intense strain.
The second is that as the draft progresses and
men are called to arms there is likely to be an influx into the
factories of inexperienced persons, including probably r-any
women, unfamiliar with the industries in which they become
employees.
Under these circumstances there is, of course,
danger that the loss of life and the suffering from injuries,
regrettably incident to industry, may increase.
Nay, it
seems certain that unless earnest thought and continuous care
are given to the matter, it is sure to increase.
May I,
therefore, express the hope that through every agency an
ernest effort may be made to see that not only are the safeguards for life and limb provided by laws maintained in full
force and vigor, but that a special appeal is made to our
leaders of industry to safeguard by careful provision and
constant thouptht the lives of the toilers now so necessary to
our country.'"
There are a great number of agencies that have been enof
gaged in this work, some which I wou]d be very happy to see
combined into one.
We have a number of agencies all tend-
ing in the same direction, ladies and gentlemen, but differing
1I5
in ma,ny details to the extent that the manufacturer of machinery in placing his safeguardq on machinery muqt conform
to various state standards, and that must ultimately be paid
by the consumer.
If a manufacturer cannot make his molds
to f it a condit ion exist ing in the Qtate of Maine and al so
in California, the people in Maine and teaeop
in Califor-
nia must pay the difference in the cost of the molds, of
cour V.
Therefore it in up to sorebody to obtain the
necessary safety for the employes through stanclaxdization, and
I air
very happy to sa3r that this work has been in courtefor
perhaps the, last year, very lately through the organization
of the working Conditions clervice.
A great deal of a,tten-
t ion has been brought to bear on it, a,nd all the encrineering organizations, ti,e National (lafety Council and various
state commissions have offered their cooperation, and without
a doubt I th ink we will have the work start ed with in a very
short t ime.
The benef it vvill be very far-r each ing.
If there are any questions that come up that you would
like to ask about with reference to our preqentation of the
8111)-jeCt I
should be very glad to answer them or refer you to
somebody who can answer them.
Mrs.
Parnum:
I have been trying to find, and sone
106
other parties have been trying to find, information on industrial seating, but I do not find it.
Have you made any
study of that?
Miss Thorne:
Mr so Parnum:
That is one question that
amp •••
we can find no light on it, and it is
a subject that we believe is very vital and very important.
)fiss Thorne:
qo far as I am able to find out, no
state has made any particular study of it.
it in mind.
I do not have
It is one of the necessary things.
Mr. uulr eady(Massachusetts):
we have a provision of
law that says that Suitable seats shall be provided.
Mrs. P arnum:
Vulready:
question.
That is not proper seating.
Let me tell you that this is a big
A suitable aeat
or a person working in a. cracker
factory is not a suitable seat for a girl working in a paper
factory0
that really I see no other way of doing it
to
than have a suitable seat considering the occupation that the
girl is engaged in.
1"e became famous in the case of seating in our town.
Let me
A ay
this, that there is in the biscuit business, the .
cracker business, a seat that is gag gotten up
which is,
I believe, patented, for the use of girls engaged in that
107
business.
we would not approve that as suitable.
We do
not think that is a suitable seat considering the occupation of some of the girls.
I should be glad if anybody
has found a set that will fit every occupation.
Mr. Parnum:
e have all found, of course, that a
seat that fits one occupation is not always applicable to
another occupation; but there seems to be nothing of any consequence, that is, no really serious thought has been given
to it, and I wish somebody would.
Mulready:
May I have just a moment on that?
We
hsve a woman in our department whom we call an expert on
seats.
Te
sent her up to a paper-making factory, s very
large one, and the superintendent and the workers anti everyone concerned agreed that there was no way of a girl being
seated at that work and doing it efficiently.
Unfortunate-
ly for their contention, this lady connected with our department was in her younger days -- and she would not thank
me to say that she is old now -- a paper-worker.
So she
took off her coat s,nd her hat and called for an ordinary
chair and showed them that that work could be done and done
more efficiently seated than was their custom to do it
standing.
"the consequences were that thousands of chairs
108
went into that factory just from that exhibition0
qo that really this is a mighty interesting question.
It is a very important matter, and if you with your power
here can adopt a seat or a set of seats you will be doing one
of the greatest works for women workers that I can imagine.
r. Cary:
'there is an engineer who has lived in
Providence, Rhode Island, who has made a study of factories.
Pis nsme is Frank (111bert (4?), and he made quite an extensive
study of this mat ter of cl- ir s and seating.
Re maintains
a museum, I believe, with many different kinds of chairs and
different arrangements for seating, even some that are hung
upon chains with boards across to give a rest of some sort to
people who are at work.
"r. Crernon (New York):
The seating proposition is a
difficult one, and a suitable seat is one with a back.
Our
law says that a suitable seat is one that must be adjustable.
For instance, a girl might sit at a table and the seat mictt
have a. hack on it, and she might never touch the back until
she quit work aryl leaned back and rested her back.
we have
made some development in some occupations, particularly
those where the girl is higher than she is on an ordinary
chair.
An ordinary chair has a standard of 18 inches.
Where
109
that girl has to sit at an elevation higher than that 18
inches -ITO must take her feet from the floor, we have had a
footrest put in which we find increases the efficiency of
the operator and relieves her of considerable strain.
Those things are problems that have got to be worked
out in the occupation itself.
We have occupations in New York where they have five
clays a week and the manufacturer will not let them work six,
and they sit in rocking chairs without arms, and they are
furnished with music.
They have no work on Paturday nor
Punday, anl the employer says that they come back with so
much vigor on Monday that he gets results.
So the man who is studying industries, if he will only
use a little judgment,
will find he can do a lot of
things that will help the girls anl. help his business.
Vies Thorne:
I am sure that we all feel that thii task
of creating standards is s scientific task and nothing can
be done without cooperation.
. Makes:
I wish everyone here would realize the
fact that there are some coles now that are war emergency
measures, but do not lose sight of the fact that whatever
is dons in war times is certain to be considered after the
110
In other words, that it is going to be the basis of a
war.
in the first
continuing movement and it shou7d be done right
place.
Therefore we ask your cooperation.
Lissner (California):
I think the experience of
gation
the Industrial Pepartment of California in the promul
(although )
of standards of safety rules might be interesting,
Although it is practically the sarne system that is in
use in some other states, I think it is the right system.
would like to refer to it just for a moment.
In the promulgation of such standards, the officials
concerned use their own judgment, but practical people sat
upon the committees that adopted such standards.
That is
what we have done in ,California before we have given out any
standards.
We have standards for construction of boilers
and several different sets of standards are in use, and in
each case we have held conferences both in cl-an Francisco
and in Los Angeles, to which the geRral public has been invited, but especially represented by errployes an
employers,
repreand we have named committees to be sure that they were
and
sented, so that the thing has all been threshed out
standards
-greed upon by a majority of those present and the
out.
have been adopted by the Commission and have gone
111
'"e have had very pleasant cooperation in that regard
with officials of the United c7tate9 Government; no trouble
with them at all.
operation.
In fact, they have asked for our co-
They asked our safety engineer, who is a very
birrh grade man, by the way, a gentleman whom we imported
from Pennsylvania, and to whom we pay t5,000 a year as our
quperintenient of
afety.
we have a. number of others
whom we pay di-3,000 a year, and any number of inspectors
besides.
He went over to Mare Island, the big Navy Yard there,
to advise with the Government in regard to safety plans
there.
He was also asked to go to cleattle to do the same
thing.
There it is necesTary that a modification ghoul d
be imposed in any of our orders on account of the extensions of war activities or• on account of something that is
not covered by our safety order explicitly, our c`uperintendent of r-'afety hao been given authorization by the Commission to make variations.
For instance, in ship-building, our construction
orders do not fit ship-building in every way, and where that
is called to our attention we are very glad to Er,ive our superintendent of e-safety the necesErry authorization to make
112
mod if beat ions.
While I am on my feet, ',Cadarn Chairman, in view of the
fact that I came in late, I would like to have the opportunity of saying a word on this subject of health insurance
and medical examinations, because I have given particular
attention to that subject recently in connection with the
study that was made of the compensation for accidents in
which disease is a complicating factor.
I do not think that it is a disadvantage to an employe
at all to have a medical examination.
It is not to his dis-
advantage to be kept away from a job that he is not fitted
for, and it is not to the advantage of the employer to put
a man on a job that he is not fitted for.
necesnarily follow that because
It does not
there is something the
matter with the man that he ia going to be refused a job.
In fact, if only 90 or 100 per cent perfect men were employed we would not be abl e to win this war at all.
A large
proportion of those men who are employed would be out of employment altogether.
The fact that a man has had a preexinting disease does
not militate against him in the matter.
I would like to say a few words about the experience of
113
the California Commission in that regard based upon actual
precedents.
I have found that accidents attributable to
disease might roughly be divided into a three-fold classification, first, accidents in which therd had been a latent
disease awakened by injury; for instance, a latent tuberculosis lighted up by a crushing injury which made the tuberculosis active and perhaps caused his death.
In those cases
we invariably grant compensation, because the man was able
to work before.
The disease was not bothering him in his
employment.
The second classification is one in which there has
been a chronic disease, some active disease and it has been
exacerbated or aim-ravated by the injury.
In those cases
we usually allow only for that portion of the disability that
may be reasonably charged up to the injury, and stop it at
that po int
The third classification is a classification of cases
where the injury is exacerbated and delayed in its cure by a
disease.
For example, a case we mirr,ht mention of a wound
or a fracture which is delayed in its cure by reason of a
specific disease
syphilis, for instance; and in that case
we award as part of the compensation treatment for the die-
114
until it
is cured.
If it cannot be cured, then final-
I
ly we make a permanent disability rating in that case.
c'o that you see that the mere fact, as I said at the
outset, tIlat a man has disease in his aystem, does not
necessarilY, or at all, ao a matter of fact, militate to any
considerable extent a.ga,inst compensation; and I know that the
policy of the California Cotnmission in thp_.t regard is even
conservative, because in a meeting of the International
Association of Industrial Accilent Commissioners just held
at Ma,diaon, it came out that the policy of some of the
other commissions, notably Massachusetts, was very much more
liberal in those cases than that of the California Commission.
:rust a 'Nord in regard to health insurance and the
attitude of the Commission on that subject.
I agree that the doctors are doing a great and a wonderful and a patriotic service in this war.
to the doctors.
I take off my hat
I know that many of them, thousands of
them, have torn up their affairs by the roots,
it were,
and a,re making. 9.9 great a sacrifice as anybody could make.
I know of Fin exa-ple of tha.t sort riftt in my own family.
But the doctors are not thoroustly 000ialized, as a class.
115
mhose that are, live by themselves, because, as has been
said by Mrs. Edson, we have up in California now a constitutional amendment which will be an enabling act for
California.
There are three difficulties that we have
combined together in a sort of mesalliance.
They are the
doctors, Christian cicientists and health insurance people,
and they are fighting health insurance, but I think it is
safe to say that 90 per cent of the members that are left
are making an active campaign for health insurance in the
c,tate.
iss Abbott:
I think there may be a feeling on the
part of some of you that some particular thing that you want
to bring up has not been brought up, and if any of you have
anything that you would like to be heard upon before you
leave, I would be very glad to hsve you speak at this time.
we have some minutes left before this part of
Conference
is entirely over, and if anybody has anything that be would
like to contribute to the general disculqion, we would be
very glad to hear from you at this time.
Mr. Lynch:
I do not know how popular this suggestion
may be, but I move that this Conference will go on record as
opposed to any 1owerin7 or repealing of labor laws and labor
I16
standards set up in the various states, unless on recommendation from Federal authority with competent jurisdiction.
I hesitate to make that motion.
I promise not to use
any f irrur es in connect ion with it, so that there will not
be any misunderstanding, but only that it may be tested I
would like to make that motion.
(The motion was duly seconded.)
Mr. T,ynch:
And that any modification or suspension is
to be by Pederal authority of competent jurisdiction.
We had a discussion on that subject,
Miqs Abbott:
and the
el
ecretary started the ball rolling at the very be-
ginning of the Conference yesterday morning by saying that
that was the genersl position.
Have you any further dis-
cussion now?
Mr. Lynch:
It has been asked what I would say was com-
petent jurisdiction.
There have been certain agencies
working to win the war • first and foremost, the President
of the United qtates in his status as Commander-in-Chief,
if he should ask that certain standards should be suspended
or changed, of course it would be different.
If the gec-
retary of the Navy or secretary of War should recommend that,
it would naturally be the supposition that that was concurred
117
in by the Preskient, who is their chief, and there would be
acquiescence in that.
If any such recommendation was made,
I presume that it would only be mflde after consulting with
the various bureaus that have been handling the subject and
with the officers of the American Federation of Labor who
have so far taken quite a prominent part in the con -iuct of
the war from the industry side.
e would therefore have
some faith in any recommendation that might come from Washington
for either a suspension or a change of some standard in some
of the states which mirtht interfere with the winning of the
war.
But otherwise, we are opposed to it.
Miss Abbott:
Is there any further discussion?
(The question was called for.)
r. Mulready:
I wish that Brother Lynch had talked with
me before he made his motion, because it puts me in a very
awkward rlace.
What is to be done in the case of a sudden
unexpected emergency?
May I give you one or two and ask
you what you would do with them?
Supposing that a ship was sailing an: needed for its
equipm.nt the now famous mattress live preserver, and they
could not be furnished and the ship had to go and the soldiers
were ready.
rrould you let anybody work other hours than
118
--overned by law, or would you say, "Not unless we hear from
'ash incrton"?
May I ask if it is necessary to repeal
Mr. mcLaughlin:
the Act in order to let that ship sail?
Will the stenor-rapher read the motion
Miss Abbott:
offered by Mr. Lynch?
(mile motion referred to was thereupon read by the
reporter, as above recorded.)
If the gentleman snys that, I want to secort
Mr. Mulready:
the motion of Mr. Lynch, but I want to go on record against the
repeal or against the doing away of any law or any standard.
I am opposed to that.
Miss Abbott:
I think Mr. Lynch means that every act
of that kind must rest on full information, and the state
officers collectively reinforce that feeling on their part
that they must insist on a rigid and scrupulous enforcement
of their state laws.
We are all with them on that.
I
think that has core out.
Mr. Mcts.ughlin:
I think it is the intent to.
we have
every reason to believe that there will be a drive made to
repeal labor lerislation and the wiping off from the statute
books of things which are beneficial to labor and for the
protection of women an: children, and we should oppo se it
and let it go out to the world that we are so opposed.
Miss Abbott:
You can count on this machinery here in
backing you up.
Mr.
May we have the mot ion read?
saner:
I would
like to ma.ke a slight amendment to the motion.
(The mot ion referred to was thereupon read by the reporter as above recorded.'
Mr. T, issner (Cal ifornia):
A drive will be made upon
state I egislatur as for the repeal of the standards under the
guise of war erne• gency.
It is not at all necessary to re-
peal the state labor laws or state labor standards for emergency purposes.
The proper remedy for that is to give to
the proper state off ic ial s authority to act in emergency ratter.
In other words, our labor laws, where our state offic ills have
not that authority, should be made a 1 ittl e less rigid in
that regard.
I think authority should be left in the state
officials in emergency cases to make except ions and var iat ions
from the labor standards.
Otherwise a drive will be made for
the repeal of them as war emergency matters.
Therefore I move, as qn amendment to the motion, that
this Conference is positively opposed to the repeal of state
120
labor lep;islation and the modification of state labor standards under the guise of war emergency ler•islation, but that
for such purposes the proper state officials may, in cases
declared by them to be err.rgency cases, make temporary
variations and exceptions from the established standards.
mrs, Edson:
(Cal ifornia)
I never disagreed with
Mr. Lissner in my life before, but I think that is a very
broad power to give to any labor official.
Reing one myself
I think it would be much safer to leave that program as
outlined by Mr. Lynch, for the reason that we are all labor
officials, and I az, one myself, so I think I can call myself
names and you will not mind.
There mieht be pressure
brought to bear upon us in such a way that it would be very
difficult for us to not break down the standards when even
our best judgment right be against it, and I think if we
can pass it on to the
ecretary of War or the c'ecretary of
the Navy, it would be a whole lot easier for us and would
prevent variation in many places from state labor laws.
I
think, Mr. Lissner, that is an amendment that we ought not to
have.
Mr. Lynch:
were you here, mr, Liesner, this morning
when we discussed that very subject?
121
Mr. Lissner:
Mr. Lynch:
yes.
I think I then said that if I could write
the measure and appoint a commission to carry it out I
might be in favor of the state doing some of these things;
but what I am afra1:1 of is that we are not going to start with
the idea of giving the Industrial Commission or t--,e qtate
nepartment of Labor the power to do these things at all,
but it is going to make the situation such that they will
have to do it.
It is all going to be done under the banner
of patriotism, and winning the war, and all those things
that are being used as we know they are used throughout the
country.
I think perhaps all the commissions or the state
departments have enough power now of the kind Mr. Lissner
wants to give them to be able to E-,et in temporary emergency;
that is, the brief period such as my friend from Massachusetts stated — 72 hours or 48 hours, which is at least
long enough to get in touch with Washington and get word
back again.
Put if we are going to put in any modification
ourselves, be sure that it will be seized upon, because it is
distasteful to a certain very powerful element.
I am opposed to the amendment, and I trust that Mr.
Lissner will not insist upon it.
I think that the motion
Shea
fls
Pr
122
tbat I made is broad enough to cover the situation nnd one
on whicl we can all stand with some degree of safety.
Mr. Mulready (Massachusetts):
Madam Chairman, may I
ask if there are any States represented here where the
power is given to the labor officers, even with the assent
of the qecretary of War, to modify labor law?
Is there any
state represented who can legally adopt the suggestion which
was made by Mr. Lynch which will provide for 72 or 24 hours
of leeway?
Mies Abbott:
Yes; there are some states that have that
authority; but, more than that, it can be done by the wnr
powers of the President or his representatives, if necessary;
but the full facts, the full information as to whether those
exemptions are needed, are here in Washington, Mr. Mulready,
not with the Massachusetts employer.
Of course it can only
be done properly with the full knowledge of the facts.
Are there any further remarks, or are we ready for the
question?
mt.. Allen (Tennessee):
May I ask if the motion is on
the amendment?
Miss Abbott:
The amendment was not seconded.
Unless
there is a second, the question will be on the motion as
123
made by Commissioner Lynch.
(The question on Mr. Lynch's motion was put and declared
unanimously car r led.)
(Applause).
Mrs. qemple (Pennsylvania):
May I ask if a repeal of
the labor laws is not the last thing that Commissioner
Lynch is contending for?
The point was not clear to my mind
in the reading of the resolution by the reporter.
Mr. Gernon (New York):
from
I hope we will prof it
this
conference by having another one for the purpose of trying
to bring the standards up in the States that do not have
standards.
I think if we had a conference like this with
time enough to work it out thoroughly, the findings of the
conference would have great weight.
Miss Abbott:
Thank you for the suggestion.
I also want to say that this conference is a genuine
conference.
We had in mind getting you here before we went
ahead, and we wanted your advice and experience.
I hope you
have all gotten the idea from all of the people of the Labor
Department who have appeared before you that we consider a
help is a suggestion or opinion from you as to the way in
which things are going in the field, and the way in which you
can help us most is by telling us when an order has gone out
124
and we think it is working, that it is not working.
the information we want, and we will use it at once.
That is
We want
you to suggest ways in which things are going and can be
improved in any direction.
in that way.
Nothing is counted as criticism
That is a real help, and anything that you can
send in along that line will be much appreciated.
There are a number of different bureaus and sections and
departments that are developing novr0
We will undertake to
keep you informed here in the War Labor Policies Board as
to what is being done.
I have been charged in the War Labor
Policies Board with that responsibility, and I will try to
live up to it „
I do not want to say that we will correspond
or take up matters directly with the individual that is
handling it, but if you are confused or in doubt or if there
is information that you want in this situation which is more
or less changing, any requests which you make to us or to me
through the War Labor PoliciesBOard will receive prompt attention and we will see that it goes to the place where it to
go
for the quickest and most effective action.
You may be
sure that we want inforrtton and suggestion and advice at
all times from the officials in the field.
There is one
thing that we are convinced is necessary, and that is that
the local administration be followed up by support from the
125
Federal acIministration, and anything that we can do in that
direction we are more than glad to do.
We have no desire to
take away or minitrize anything that is being done in the
state.
We
nt you to go ahead where you can go ahead and
we want to help in every way we can.
Absolutely every one
who has appearei before you has made it p1a:q1 that that war3
his single purpose, so far as that is concerned, and you may
rest aqsured that you are going to have the formal and official backing of the various departments, because they have
all indicated that intent.
s. Fdson (California):
Th y
have we not heard
anything about the public employment service at this conference?
M is s Abbo tt:
I an very glad you asked that que st ion.
A conference was held very recently, a national conference
with reference to the employment service.
This conference
was intended to be with reference to the enforceriont of laws
on that subject, and the employment service has given every
indication, I am sure, that they delire to work forward in
that direction.
At that conference the particular aspects
and relationship were discugsed for three days, and it seemed
as though we would get away from our own problem if we undertook to discuss employment service during these two days.
126
Are there any other questions?
will a copy of the proceed-
Mr. Hudson (Rhode Island):
ings be mailed out to each one?
Miss Abbott:
we will either mail a copy of the pro-
ceedings in full or a summary.
We are very much concerned
here as to the amount of paper that we use and the amount
of print that we put on paper, but we are going to see that
the proceedings or a summary get to you so that you will
be able to use the record that has been made.
Colonel Bryant (New Jersey):
We have some very serious
problems to consider in flew Jersey as to getting material
to carry out the orders of the department.
escape on a building.
We order a fire
A contract is given, and the contractor
can not get the material.
Is there any way that that situa-
tion can be helped through the priorities board?
Hiss Abbott:
Her . is Mr. Frayne ready to answer you.
He is the War Industries Board member of the
ir ar
Labor
Policies Board.
Colonel 3ryant:
are hazardous.
I have two cases *arc: the conditions
Ju9t before I left I gave instructions to
have both buildings closed until the fire escapes are
erected.
I know what is going to happen.
able to get the material to build them.
They won't be
The factories
127
that are engaged in war work oan get priority for iron.
Mr. Frayne:
If they are engaged in war industries
they stand some chance.
Colonel Bryant:
Mr. Frayne:
It is quite difficult to get materials.
Ruppose you write the priority commission
on it?
Me. Kearns (Ohio):
We are having seriolas trouble along
that very line in Ohio, now, where we issue orders for safety
devices for schoolhouses of all kinds and it means that they
must have sheet metal or iron or steel to comply with the
order, and in any number of oases they say to the department
that they can not get the material unless they have a priority order, and they can not get a priority order unless
they are manufactur ing goods for the Government-- which
means that the order will not be complied with and it puts
the department in the position of having to extonfi the time
in all cases, because if they can not get the material they
can not comply with the order.
It seems to me that com-
pliance with a safety order of any kind ia very essential
and it is a matter that ought to be given consideration.
all
Those order should be filled if at possible.
We can not
let that interfere with furnishing material to an essential
industry.
4•1
128
Mr. Frayne:
Forward the information to Washington and
it might be helpful in getting this material.
I do not say
that it will, but an application endorsed by a State commission will be recognized much more readily than the owner
of the building or the contractor, because many time they
may make a claim for this rraterial and there may be a doubt
as to whether it ought to be granted at all.
Qo in each
instance if the commission were to write a letter of endorsement calling attention to the necessity of getting a priority
order, it would be very helpful.
In one hundred per cent of the cassii it ig necesary
that the Government must come before anything else, and when
it comes to steel and iron the Government wants enough now
to exceed the whole capacity of the entire United States.
So that those who want materials for building something that
really not necessary, it must wait.
However, the commis-
sion can always be helpful in calling attention to just what
the situation is.
Miss Abbott:
What we want to f ee3 here is that the
facts are being put up to us in Washington, that full information is being sent in.
Information that comes from the labor
officials of various States is going to receive most careful
consideration in Washington, and because you do not get relief
129
on one proposition please do not think they you can not put
up the next one.
It Tay be that the situation will have
changed in th.e meant ire, and that the next one can be
relieved.
And let 1.19 have the knowledge and the understanding
that we are an working together and that we went to know
what is going wrong out in Iowa or Oregon or Yee York or
Maine or Florida or Ala3ama that can be helped here in
'Ars,shington, !"nd if we have that kind of information we are
going to act much pore intelligently than otherwise.
I can assure you that on all these boards and in all
thee departments there are people who are as eager as you
nre to see that thele things are done promptly and intelligently and effectively, and whenever they have that inforration they are go in g to uee it in every poi; r ible way.
Flo I
do hope that one of the reeolutions of the conference is
going to he that we are going to have even more cooperation
than ve have had in the past an
that we are going to be
able to pull together in a way that we have not always been
able to pull together in the pat.
I am not speaking of myself, because I am only too
gr ateful for the very great cooperation that we have had
right along from theseveral otates.
130
We are enormously grateful to you for all the assistance
"peaking
and help that this conference has been to us, and Ia
for the entire service in saying that, becn.use they have
all felt that it has been a groat privilege.
Mr. Lynch (New York):
I now move that we adjourn.
The motion was Jeconded, and at 5:15 o'clock p.m.
the conference adjourned).
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