Full text of Committee on the History of the Federal Reserve System : Committee Meeting [Transcript of Proceedings] (Nov. 21, 1954), Entry 164, Box 1, Folder 8

View original document

The full text on this page is automatically extracted from the file linked above and may contain errors and inconsistencies.

1-a

, Chairwut
! • 141D0LPB B0R&ESS
iALTIt 1* STEWART
CIRIL JAIH1

JOS1FI WILLITS

•

BO1ALP B. fOOB'MEB,

k&rinory

Subeommlttteri

IARL R.

•

>!• '

•

CIIAIHMAK 3PK0UL: Gentlaaen, t h i s i s tbe Mooed

a c t i n g of cur consulttao. Mm bad the l a s t B a t i n g of tb© f u l l

ecawitto* on >!ay 11, end at that tin* we d$cid*a to toroaden mm

Jma*9, to tJlt j p g t t t i l l j . ^ Bi vaotod to sot « l i t t l e l^avonii^
of tb9 M t a ^ i l Bifittrw i.nfluciKW vhlch attttaad t o be aimaflrlncf

in the cocsaitteo, and you arJ Dr. ¥ i i l i t % who has also aooaptad
•

; :'

•

. •

•

. ,

•

. .

- ¥# also havo Invitoa lb« Clough to Join th« ,, --

ooraaittee as an oconoraic Iiiytcrlan, who w i l l bring that ©aapM*

tenoe to thy nai*k of tli9 coGiaittoo,

Be has boen tra/oling In

Europe, and WQ v«ra not aluu to find out vtiaUjer tm will be able
to servo nitfe ua or aot#

:' ••'. •

;? •":,.

• Mm nlao decldeki to $*#vl^« the coaaattti© ccpgoni^ation sosawhet at tiiat laat ^fttting so tlmt tl^e entire ocsamittd©

v i l l sot mmtlj tn m advisory capacity in policy lasttors, nd
VQ have o aiaaller owacutivo caasiitte« to supervise the houaa-

^lnc« that ia&dting v© have hid ® Prograse Hn^rt
T

•

• •

,'j

•

•.

M» 6 froai Mas Adams, t i l l i n g vhat mm <3one during mm 3ucu»r to
m ^ f oat the cgwBiitW^r9 ausgostiona, aod toda/ joy :-:ia;a before
you Progreaa Report Uo. 7 vitii i t s isantion of the compldticwn of

the Eincaid Project at the University of Pennsylvania on the
Glass Papers and by the start of the work by Dr. Chandler on
vhat he hopes will be a book: 012 Benjamin Strong, Central Banker,
The executive canmittee met on October 15 and
agreed that the toOl ocwaittee needed a better definition of
ita hope and its expectations with respect to Its major project,
the preparation of the history of the Federal Reserve System,
X say the executive commit tee agreed on that, I think it was
Walter Stewart's idea that we needed to know more of vhat we
neve doing* But we accepted the suggestions and we decided to
ask Karl Bopp to form an ad hoc comsittee associating Dr. Chandlef
sad Br. Woodwsjt, and to study this problem, and prepare, if they
could, a statement which would tell us what we mean when we talk
about a history of the System, and to present sons sort of a
tentative outline as to hew we night proceed with the eccoopllah@ent of that project.
We eve gathered here today to discuss with £i».
Bopp and Dr. Chandler and Dr. Wood their attack cm the problem,
end they in turn hope to get from us, I gather, whet advice and
counsel and help they can gat as they go on with their work
toaarrow and finish up this first pert of the Job.

Then oat of this meeting, and a similar meeting to

be held In a month or six weeks, we hope we will gat e clearer
idee of where we ere going ee e cows! t tee, and as to who ia going
to help us to get to the main job aa the writer, or the parson
who might writ© this history, which in turn would threw off
sparks in various directions resulting in monographs, eeseys, and
studios collateral to the main job.
He are finding perhaps what you knew all along,
Walter, that spending $310,000 is not so easy aa it ought to

I will turn the aseting over to you, Karl, to tell
us what you have been doing and what you hope to do today.
MR« BOPPs Thank you* Allan*
X think I might go through the development of
ideas that we lied yesterday with Blmsr and Las and Mies Adana.
Each of us, first of all, had great enthusiasm for this project
end at the aase tiaa a greet humility because of its importance.
With the headway in central banking, we have a fueling that the
central bank is an important social institution. We have a
feeling of humility else as we see the enormous amount of source
•ateriel that Miss Adams has uncovered.
I think the cceiBlttee is packed,in one sense, and
baa the name handicap. Each of us is essentially a lone-wolf.

•

••

•

Lee is, H S M P is, end I am. We have at times been frustrated
by being unable to get answers to relatively simple questions
in our studies* liner's study, for example, of English theories
of central banking control had to rely fairly heavily on — wall,
it is a by-product of Bnglish government, the parliamentary
pspers*
"V

,-.

. .•

There ware inquiries into the Bank of England's
actions at the tiiaa of the suspension of cash peyaenta in 1797,
the old Billion Report of 1810, and the 1819 hearings on
resumption, them 1832, and then you had sons casual ones in
1840 and 1848, then one in 1875.
Veil, these are enorsious lapses of tlae, and the
questions aatoed rare not always the ones that would interest a
student in ths field. So that you had great difficulty in
answering questions because of inadequacy of materiel.
I recently nsda a little study of the Relchbenk1®
operations before the first world mr, and had s very simple
little question, which is, did the ieichhsnk in feet ration
credit at various tiiaas or didn't It. It is Use simplest kind
of question and yet It took months to build up s tentative
answer to this question, which is either yes or no.

Us have been confronted at times with the

^
".••

inadequacy of aster la I and have fait frustrated, we caae to
this task aware of the great wealth of material. X might say
we weren't quite frustrated; we were a bit frightened by the
*!*,-

•egnltud© of the job.

Our discussion developed to this point of being
kind of frightened by it, end we said let's defer discussion
of this and eek oursolves, for whom Is this history to be
written. Attack it froa the other and of the problea*
2 think at this point I nay hand out an outline
of the ideas that we developed yesterday, this Is quite tents*
tive, 1 aesure you, and Merely something to shoot at during the
course ox1 the discussion.
Va ecosidered the general design, and X must say
that rather than beginning with Mo. A here, a comprehensive
history, we began with Ho* C and fait that what should come out
of this was a history of the Federal Reserve System for the
general reader, that this history should be Interpretive and
iaaginative for people who are interested in political and socle)
history, aa nail aa an economic history, for government servants
and so on, and that therefore the general history should not be
too technical*
On the other hand, we have a strange feeling that
** For text, see Appendix

it should be written fey ammom

who has a thorough comprehension

of aooetary principles end central banking operations* In other
vorde, that It should be written by a first-claw monetary
theorist.
In trying to think through what this monetary
theorist vould do aa be approached all this materiel, ve felt
also that there should C O M out of this study a mem coaprehenaiv
history, and that the getierel history that ve laentioned, which
ve think of a one voluma affair, should be built on a comprehensive history vhich would cover the origin of the systems, the
aoeial and econooio environment out of which it grew, and the
devalopoant of it in its environment.
The word comprehensive I might define in this m y *
We felt that it should be so couplet© tJnat a future lono-volf
theorist could go to this comprehensive hiatory and he/e a
faeUng tm% tee naterioia hmrn hmm covered thoroughly, and also
that it would deal with problems that a future person would lilee
answers to*
X wight perhaps illustrate that with a couple of
points, and X am not sure we dlacuaaed these specific points, but
last night I tried to think through bow this would work. It a*

aa that throughout this comprehensive history, at eoch point

t
ia time, a person should be able to get an answer to the question t
•#••:;•:•.••

what ves the character of thinking of the officials In the ftsdera1
fteaerve System vlth regard to the nature of their problem, with
regerd to the objectives that they were pursuing.
Also in teraa of very general ideas, one should
be able to go to this source, and find at all times through
hiatory what were the terns and conditions under which credit
was extended by the FWerel Reserve Syateatothe wrkett the
aethods, the terms, etc*

.
.
. •;mm?m

X aentior, these aa being clearly basic aspects of
central banking,and we fait that the whole aeries of questions
of this sort mlflfct ultimately be raised, w d one should neke
sure that the cooppehwwive history would give answers to these
questions throu^iiout the history m» nearly as material may be
available•
Veil, that la the general idea then with respect
to the ccmprelmialve history*
lit* STEWART: Does ocMi^ehensive mean one /oluae?
MR« BOPP: No* Our thought vae several, but
exactly how many we did not know*
l$l« IWtmBSi H9MI Douglee Freeman type* It Is a
docuamtdd thorough review*

lit* BOPP: Quite right. It does not wmn that •
person could answer a n questions. A specialist on e particular
aspect of it might than wish to go back to the original sources,
but the basic problems of central banking end the answers given
to than* by conteagporarleii, u history goes by, should be in*
eluded in tills comprehensive history,
1st. BUftCflBS: You a m you vould pick up certain
sources that mm ISM the Strong letters, sod so on, that aren't
available la documentary form. Ten probably vould pick up sons
of thosiiaore completely than documented stuff?
m. BOP?i Perhaps the answer la yss, bat I had
better sialea it a tentative yee and go on to polot 1 under
Oeoeral Design, which concern© source sseteriel.
SOU) to assure acholors vno is the future
go to this comprehenalve history, and also to aske known what
la available snd where, materials for other specialists, we
vould also suggest the possibility of having an annotated bibliography, which vould be comprehensive and also indicate where the
Material la available, what It is, something aa to Its nature,
and so on. Second, to publish a selected list of unpublished
documents*

.. .

. . . .

.. .,

In connection with that, X *ight say that we also

would stiggest that anyone who Is working on the project vlth the
domjnsnts should keep in niind the possibility of publishing
selected doemMmts, M i nek* a note to this effect; b**e is 00s
of ths documents thst seana to las of critical importance for oos
rssson or another, or illustrated far one reason or another*
then eventually s group would decide which should be published,
Ve felt thst thes« should be unpublished documents
because the annotated bibliography would indicate where. In
other vordsf get the msxlwna thst is not now sveilsblo rather
toen to duplicate things that could be secured in one vsy or
another, feeling thst the atmctated bibllo^repby giving sourees
sod locations would ©cable s first-clsss acholsr to find it

Finally, to© fourth part consists of caanograptas*
and is the discussion yesterdsy 1 might say that this is the peart
with which ve fcegscu We tried to teles, in s sense, what
the easier pert rather than the herd pert, to see if there
particular ereee thet nlgfet be lumped off of the whole history
that arenft reslly pert of the core of the history of central
becking, sod yet ere important to it* Ve osne up with s large
Wttfeer of suggestions from you gentlieon* as veil as others, and

up with the particular list that vo IIBV® here* fbat Is

1 .

.,-Vt

certainly subject to correction and aodificatioiw
With reapect to the monographs, I might say that
M m of them are almost unrelated to policy, if one uses policy
vith e oepital P. 1 Mention cheek clearing and collection,
fiacal agency, personnel ee specific illustrations of those.
Others tie into policy aore directly. For example, Lester's
etody of Benjamin Strong.
I Mention this difference, which is of course a
natter of degree, primarily because we tmA mm

oonaideretion of

possible authors Vor those, mm we felt tnet it mi^it be quite
:

appropriate to have a Itederel Hes«^ve individual work on thoee

that mm not related to policy to any great extent, whereas tboee
txhat are really intixaately tied in vith poUcy it mi^it be
preferable to tew people outside the dystan vork on them*
With that, I might mention very briefly our
conception of the content of these individual aowogrephs, if you
s

liice, Allan*

>. -

CHAIRMAW SPROm,i l*a.
lit* BOPP: Then we adLgHt open the discussion. Or
do you think it &Lght be better to go into toe discussion of the
gpaoerol idee at this point?

CHAIBMiUi 3PR0UL: What is your pleasure, gentlemen

I wmM 13Jm to go over the whole
field first. It helps us in our thinking,
wonogrephs, the first one, on the
whole area of bsnlc supervision, we don*t envision too clecrly
vhat that might contain. It could et times b© en iisportent aapect of policy Itself. 'There in, as you too** at least $m
later time®, M m Question as to the relation ®f bank supor/ialon
to general credit policy ae su^h, aixi ao on. But at eny rote,
that Ftederel Reserve banks do have these relaUoae with mm
comaarciel h&n'^ thi^ou^i vhich they operate, and Wmt tills is e
apecific area which only occaaicacialiy woul<5 oo»e into the general
history, and yet is raU«>r an iaportaut area i® end of itself.
The second one is check clearing and collection,
•JiwWIIr^ir

TWPJ'

I^B^P^^PP

^pa^jajfl(Rwff*ajispaflB^

^pp'^p^p^^^ajw? ^p

. -• i

i t the oese of fiscal agency, we thcugfct that that
include oot warely the teohoioel operations im the
iasuance end i^Semption of goverteaant securities, and so on,
the problem of the Treasury Account© eofl how they are transferred
from the batleiiees In cosniarciel becks to the Federal Heserve
banka, and consideretlona t®mlm& in thet*

I t vould be more

deasriptive reti^r than as a part of monetary policy.

Research end intelligence.

;

This would be concernefl

•

• '

first, with he* Hit system with i t s regional structure, atcurea
ecoiioaic intelligence, and bow i t i t analysed and integrated and
paased or,, and tto role of research in general, or tto staff
research function relative to policy* In Hit relative abort
experience I have tod in tto system I tow seen toot changes in
how tto floaerve system functions* Me thought that there could
to a aignificant atoocgraph in that arts.
'

Constitutional history.

I think on© might define

that in thia way. What tot been in fact Hit balance of pevor
within tto Ptederal Kttti'tft Systea and for tto aystem as t
iih©l#f and i t s part&jjbo various other ersts of govtyiMtnt? 3oaa>
fttpdt vould say *Wsral Reserve — tottttigy# Our discussion

•

yesterdsy developed that that vould to out aspect of a nwch
largtr problem and would deal, in a aeoae, with tto role of tto
Paters! Heserve System within Hit goveranental fraaavork end tto
internal relations of tto parta of the system.
JDR. CHAMBdEHt It attma to we that this illustrate i
t ptrticular problem that i s involved liere, at obviously tto
comprehensive history vould hsve aiach to say about izbere pewtr
vaa located, hov i t vaa divided, and a l l that kind of thing. Yet
Hal history itself couldn't p^tatwt sort of a unified analysis
vith sceaa liaaginative and interpretive stuff.

It couldn*t do tto

kind of tMng, for exaiaple, that a really firat-rste public

e&fiiaistretion person might <to# with tiie Federal fteaerve ea an
eiperlmst In gowerasaental f&noa*

;

3o that this could be SKKX* aoalytlcal. in a
sense, than the historical trestaaent of i t vould be.
MR, BOPPJ I^ils, in t sense, Is 0 problem In
political science rather than a perobl«sa In economic theory,
thet la the light of deal. Ing a person to writ* • g«wrel history
0 craHprebenBlve history, vho would be ja*liaari2y s monetary
theca^lat with a strong flavor end ccstaprebension end epprecietlon
for history, this mlgbt b© a pollUoel scientist with s politics:.

6 uzader tbe
vould be ecmeeraed vltn the

is
s#lectiOB#

recrultmeot, aalnteneBae of iwrale, salary aod wage admlnlatr*Uon#
e t c . , m i this Is *» sre« vblch perhaps teachers, especially of
mmmf m& Poking, would tmti to <51a«la»t f*% v^m one thlniai
of the FWeral Reserve Syatera or the SWeral Fteaerve Bank of
Philadelphia in tenos of 1100 pt®s&m§ tliat la whet 1% really l a .
Tbeae people are doing a l l aorta of things, ooat cf then, other
than dealing with tnonetsry theory and principles and practice.
So i t V?JG fsit tiiat this at any rate i s a poasibility for aOTonogre^vthe vhol© general personcel, Dfilnt©nence of
morale, of the individuals who maioe up t'm literal Reserve

ft* seventh is the role of the IMeral Reserve
Systew In international finance. Thle is just a brief title •
M t U y vhat is in mind is something more aa&itioue than thotf
because it is felt it might include the changing role of the
United States, ss s vbole, in the entire vorld eooooagr end in
icterostiooel finance, mid then specifically bar the role of the
FWersl Reserve System in this hss developed.
the Strong project vouia be one on which Les id
*** n M c h w u l d oex^sinly be mm wiOMHS in
terms of tt»e dictiotoBjy « a c b I hed before, Wm there asy be
others thst you suggest or thet C O M to aincS, end I think it
would be tbe ftoOiag of the group thst this is open to expansion,
contraction, etc., from tisae to tine, but this gives you sons
feeling of areas that would sees to be a little bit on the
periphery, or of particular interest m i vorthy of doing.
fbst, in general, is the kind of thinking thst
H i us to this general design, which voulo consist then of a
history, together with source meterial, and with
• feeling that these tiro vould give to ai^r future looe-wolf
scholsr, or otbor person, first answers to the questions that lie
might appropriately raise in terra* of his ovn theory and intuition,
and so on, to hitnself int«ppet the history atti the aource aBterlil

.W--

•.-. - ."

*> w

so that If he is not satisfied with the documentary history he
oen go back to the original document* We will tell him where
to look.
then cut of this, and based on it, would bo m
imaginative and interpretive history for the general reader, and
the© the series of oonograpba which ere I D general cm the perl*
•;••

.'.•

jhery but each adding to the whole story, though not In general
pert of the comprehensive history*
CHA2BHAB SPRCUL: We have two alternative approach HI*
Z aseusae that In your thinking they were less desirable, or
asaopflory* As far as you go now* you fevor this first approach
rather Umn this alternative approach to the comprehensive historr*
Wm CHAH3DI£R: Ho* I M s is a question of bov you
would organise the coaiprehemlve history.
Ml* BOPP: Approeohes rather than content, really•
Point II deals with tan would one now jo about
writing this history,in terms of topics or in terms of chronology
Then H I Is the eov«rege of it* tod finally, imm does w
ize

t Od o l t # , -

•:. -

CWIRMAJI SPROOLi

••'"••_•

organ-

•.••..; :.

I « W « 1 would U3ss the

cos23Ddtt«e isautfjera to express their views and jud&aotft on your
appposcn

v o w i eprooxesi*

- '••••.

NH* m n s s t

: . ••

.,.

: ••••;•; -'.

You started off with the query who

tbM* thing* *f written for, and tt» judpNmt of particularly
you, lister, vhich ones of these would be used in our courses,
for example? You would have occasional references to • coaprebsesive :.i3tory. You would use as e textbook or alternative
teartbook the w e volume history, wouldn't you?
HI. CHANDLER2 Probably in sgr unflergreduete
work it would be almost ell either the history for the
reader plus aooe of tUe aooogrephs* Probebly for graduate
students certain sections at least of the comprehensi
voiilii lie listed *

X think the vay *e arrived et this sort of trifuroeted apjpwsch vss, w» first asked the <joe«tion would it be
pc»sible to write one genersl purpose treatasnt end imam is
¥e really got frightened. It just wouldn't be possible to preserve ell the materials that should be preserved, to trmt them
in the detail that they deserve, and still get m kind of treetmmt that the inquisitive banker, business aso, college student,
end so on, would feel he would wade through.
So that it would almost certainly be necessary, if
we are going to get e genarel audience for it, to have southing
else in the nsture of the history for the ^neral reeder that
would appeal to theo. We Just thought we vculd sacrifice too

.*<•'

suueh i f if* tried to turn a i t mo general-purpose treatise cm the

HI* I I M t

Could 1 suggest m slt«mativ«

approach? It would be along the lines of what Sandburg did |
with Itteeiiasi Lincoln,

liave jm have © comprehensive history,

then fin have * subsequent one-volume edition which airaply leaves
out a tr«endGua ©acwnt of docuiaenta tlon BM d e t s i l atxi
Hi* cootinuity.

It seme there i t m waste of effort in tanking

of two ioSepwiaent things, • cosagpa^wwive history M i a history
for the general reader* because the ©eneral reader i» not interested in a different atateaient, he In interested in certain
the supporting evidence,

.' ,ir;.,,,..,.,.

That i s $m same plan as in ths

Hi* JAMES: Yes, except that i t i t better done.
Wm Sandburg one-voluiae la a readable book, '

;

. BOPPs m&M sey anticipate discussion thet
IV', and 1 am apeakin^ sort of off-the-cuff, ©s
ve a l l i i f «

Sandburg spent a llfetiiae cm t h i s .

We rather have a

hunch that anyone confronted with the materials that mm
mm would equally spend a lifetime mad. perhaps die juat as lie was
ready to begin writing*

(Lmigfrter)

l^et therefore the history

a»
ttet would b« written first would tw tb» iuwmiwimt i history,
M i the other vould grov out of it. If It should turn out ttet
aeotioos of the comprehensive history vould be appropriate,
perheps ao, but tliat in looking over the entire materiel it slight
very veil be that e parson vould have insights and intuitions,
mo6 eo on, that vould moke e history for the general reader
different SM vorda end not siraply sections of a oooprebensive
history.
Ml* wmm&t

I thin>: that ia a very iaportaot

thought. If you are thinkisg in tmm» of character of circuletior.
here, your coaqyetoeualve hiatory beloi^a Mm every library, on
every reference ahelf. mm wmbm

of atudenta vho would buy it,

gpa4uates or undergraduates, would lie pretty limited. You are
talking about a circulation of 5,000, 10,000 a»?t*« The one for
the genera! reader you vould nope vould bmm e pretty vide
circulation. I think it means e rather different approaeh. It
probably a different orientation • Of courae, there aay be
a#veral of thoae. Scnabody may approach it — I m a just talking
to Allan Sproul eoeiliig over in the cer — froa the business cycle
M i aooetery policy, relating the whole thing to vhet is reelly a
policy question of the place end influence of the Reaerve ayetea*
M i fiscal policy also perhapa to the flow of economic snd buainens

ffaet selection of aaaterial would have a very
wider audience, and fat would uaa eone of the baaic atuff#
So 1 an fetter in eyapathy with thet lest
you throw out, tnat i» e m be done peri peaau with the other,
perhaps working in the saxaa fraoevork and picking up the thing
vheo it ia partly done, m i ac cm.
I

But it ia a pity to wait fca? it until Sandburg

hea finished MM fcwr voluaea, or whatever it is, and theo
write e ccmoluaion, beoauae Hie eonoluaion nay never be written.
I think it takes a little different type of approach too, or
OQuld* It aeern to ne the more useful approach ia e selection of
Material on a aooewbat different baais,
m-h

® « JAWSSi

1 am not eyre that you are not e littlja

peaatmtfltic in aaying that the as jar coa^pr^jenaiv© hiatory will
neve narrow circulation* Preauaably it would coaia out voluiaa by
volmoa# and Just running through «y own thinkJU^f the period froo
1907 to 1920, the whole concept in the beginning of the classical
19th century, suffering under the impact of the war and emerging

that that, veil written, m i ^ t be a book that might sell a large
mafcer of oopiee et the present ti«a, ^oth for Hie gaaerel reader

«'•

and for others•
Similarly, I think the next period would be
interesting, and of cours® when you eon* on to the later period
I think you might get a very large circulation, A lot depends
on how It Is written and whether it can be rm*& t*y scmebody that
isn't e financial expert.

•/

Ml* B O M B S s If you are ingenious enough to find
whet Is the topic in that first spsn of years, what is the big
topic in the steam! span of years, and to task* your history

•

i '

unfold tue developasnt through that general topic, thst takes s

touch of g^nlut«

, "

:-.;,;;-;'' . •

M * JAMBS s tod yet you have throe fairly defined

•

toples. The first Is the Intermingling of ths change frca
olsssicsl theory to uncertainty of theory, coupled with the
ssurgenco of tbe United States In the whole world econoadc
orgsnisstion. The second is the proeperity-depoE^ssIon pbase#
end the analysis of theory *oere, and tbe place of the United
States In a peaceful world, Tbe third is tbe whole turmoil to
which we don't yet quite see the conclusion, shifting the center
if gravity from other parta of the world Into Kev York end
Washingtoo.
SR« G S M O W s

I think, though,fir,James, your

hopefulness here about a vide circuletion for the cuaprehenalve

•

•;•.

•

• •

•

history does highlight the difficulty of getting readable volH N S of vide interest, the difficulty of combining that with
asking s w » you get down cm the record trei«mdous amounts of
material that >ave never tew generally available before, end
•ooh of which would be of interest primarily to tee expert in tin
field, ths fellow who wished he knev or could find out things
that have raver been published before,
.

'•

•

••

• • .

•

If the Strong papers are eny indication of the
•sgnitude of those neterials, it would indiost* «bst there
be quite s large w i n e of this completely nev wateriol, which
••y not edd auoh to ths grsnd design or the gsosrsl strategy, but
adds a treneodoua mmmt

to our underatandiog of the tactics and

of tlit thinking of the people, especially vhen they wrote lettera
to olose friends snfl so on, end vere not careful to hide the
feel basis of their tMjikiii§#

• .-; - :-:r:

* STBWAHT: The thought is DOV that this would

• CHAHULER: Yes, but you see, Welter, I ea
sfraid that if you tried to gat into the canprehenaive Mstory
sll of these extra t ' , s that would be especially of use to the
scholar and the expert in the field, that it would tend to detract
from the interest for the general reader and thereby tend to

detract from the possibilities of vide circulation. Maybe I m
too pessimistic about it.
£R« JAWSi

Of course, the answer is who doea the

vrittog I agree* But to thin]-: of the terrific ewxint of detailed
, that la the reason X picked that one. You go
through page after page of reproduced documents and letters,
which you can skip if ym went, t suppose all readers skip
and some reeders skip all, but you still get a very good connected
story, aa well aa the precise information on what happened at
half peat eleven on the 17th of September*
m. smfART: I em inclined to believe there Is
quite a bit of difference. To tay present thinking there might
be two wey» of doing it. I think the suggestion Or. Janes aaicea
would affect the cowprelsensive history, and then one might contemplate a ccappeheosive history to achieve that purpose* It Is
a raths!? dlffe^resitr MMimei|t>liti isium %hy $@a if6D #jp"# eugsMtlJEMi

Ao altefrnative would be to aeke the

apba of

two classes, the technicol and the non-technicsl, so thet jou
adgbt look to a wide circulation of some non-tecbnicel monographa
for example, Randolph1 a auggeation of btialneaa cycle and credit
policy could be a chapter in a book for the general reader, bat

•

, -

•

• • - '

•

;

i t

• • • : • •

could

,
' • • .

•

. .

. . .

sis© b e• m s m ^ m ^ t *

- - .- < ;,;

' •

•

•,

•

•• • • >, ;>, ,

'-4-./.,••.••/

MR. BUR0E33: I t could be a history* that history

listed tmdw § eouitf be #ca» firas t ^ i t point j ^ viw*
HI* ST2R*'AHT: Well, i t could be as you found

'% ,,
|W#

. . ;

1PL .WBWmSt There could be several of theia,

!mere ccwld be ooe straight fiistor>- of hew tli© thing

developed, evolving « U t t l o b i t the constitutional monograph.
but hov tbia 4wm2®&&& v ^ t h govwmaeot exercising Gaaagetaent in
an i m p o r t a n t a r w # m i tern mm d e v e l o p e d ,

,„

. ;

•••• ;;;;'4 •/•^ "

But t l ^ oti»r mm mmM be a U t t l e different

selection of material, ana so on. So ti>at you could Mm aeveral
peoplo w\>:tidUig a t different C*a»
^

' im-mmk

MR. BCJPP: Y©S, I think w© bed the f e e l i n g on the

cotaprehenaiv© history that mm function hmm should be a hope
of learning fro® experience so that Federal Reserve policy to the
future may gain from i t , eo that a l l the material ia aveilablo,
and also to permit the free lonce genius ute coaes along to go
aod give « fresr, interpretotiori of i t , vhlcb in turn v i U oontributo t o air understand^ * i>Ou here on out.
then, that a l l material be ev©liable.

Hist r^equlr^G,

If you have e geniuo like

• S««dburg t o do i t , perliaps te cen do both.

mumm
•

•

SPHOUL:

,... ;. .

Your idea of a history for nm
.

•'

•

• •

•

gsoeral reader we* e history of the federal Reserve Systea,
however, not s history of aspects « facets of the fledsrsl
I m m

System m related to government or to the business

altuGtion* It was a history of tha Federal Reserve System to
ba a oonpsnion volume to the coa^prabatsslve history?
I am lmppssseO by vbat Dr. Janes says about tha
fact that th«a© studies which you contemplate In the history for
ganaral raadar, that thcsa raan would be vo-klng ovar tha
field atxS that unless the history for tha general reader
v«a» to be more auperflclal than I think you would Intend, that
• lot of this work vould have to be done twice if tiro ma vere
doing it#

'.; !, ;

••

" \•

fhat vouldti't wmm that, as Walter Stewart aeld,
there could lie «a aetiy hlatorlea aa you have interested aad
competent people writing histories frcsa different angles. But
if It is to be history for the general reader, aa e ooBjpenioo
piece to the ooaqrehaosl ve history, then it aeeaa to ae there is
sonethlng to the suggestion that they will be working over the
ground but serving up the meal in a different vey»
I think as tea beeo brought out
that this history for the asoerel reader, if done, could be
apsjarosoned in quite s nus^er of different ways* Dr. Burgess htm
sagasted m e way. I think tDst what we really had in aind

yesterday, may be trie wrong concept, was that tula would be a
more imaginative interpretive kind of thing then the comprehensive history could possibly be; that this would try to distill
out of this whole period of experience sons general principles,
wmm themts, sons interpretations, which would almost inevitably
get lost in a highly detailed treatment of the subject. What
we had in mind was not necessarily an emphasis on business cycles
and the Federal Reserve, but rather an Interpretation of the
federal Reserve as en evolving organism responding to changes in
conditions, changes in ideas, and so on* We would probably have
policy aspects woven in with msnsgeiaent aspects, historical trend
and all of that sort of thing* So that as Halter says, it would
be a qualitative difference* Perhaps that is the wrong concert.
m . JAMES: Aren't we doing everything three tines
if we do this separately? We have a history for the general
reader which because — I hate to use the word superficial — but
becomes group jumping in terms of these ma jor things. Then we
have a comprehensive history, presuo&bly done by soaebody else,
that should be thoroughly interesting because anybody that is
really interested will want ©ore than the general reader history*
Then each of the critical things is covered by separate monogrephji
that produce even acre details*

I am not sure that we have those three levels of

people who are going to read* I aa frankly doubtful If the
number of people who vlll read the general history, other than
students that raey be required to buy it for textbook, will be
very auch larger than the number who will reed a four or five
volume comprehensive history cooing out, let's say, roughly a
volume a year, or a volume every eighteen souths, if it ia veil
written and thoroughly documented* I think then that the one
volune la simply a euwaery of that, because the history Itself
ahould be such as anybody interested at all In economic history
and economic theory, in all aspects of banking* ought to find
en Interesting document to read. And if ha wants even more
detail on, let's say, the international financial problems, there
will be a detailed aonograpb on that appearing at sons particular
s t a g e .

' "'/

;

••

'•

* -.

' • •"

''->!•»:••

X as not quite clear who the general reader la
that ve are thinking of this still simpler version for*
ME. BOPP: I think perhaps the origin of this In
our discussion yesterday siay &*ied some light on it, whicL forces
as to go down to this Point X? oa the organization ft>r casprtimks i v e

h i s t o r y *

•'-••• •.'•"'•/

"; '••'"' - " \- v '•'*•:*)..''

'""'

1 gather from your discussion that you feel one
person would write the general history and one parson would wri

the comprehensive history. It was oar judgB»nt, in terms of the
va»t amount of material available, that no one person could
write tie comprehensive history but that It would require more
then one person. If It requires nacre than one person, then It
needa sen* mi? in vhicn the several people could be coalesced
Into the writing of a consecutive history*
v

That in turn means thet if one vents e general

history, either one of the persons writing down here on the
compreltenaive one op someone else supervising thet job &m doing
Hie comprehensive history is neeessary.
As I say, that throws us dovn into a discussion
of another problem, but I tnink illuridnatea why we catae to thla.
$ * » > - -

(•••

•

DR. cmAlOLro$

•

X think as 1 listened to Dr. Jaaas

and others sake coraaents here, the difficulty seems to stem from
our concept of tlse comprehensive history, Hcv comprehensive It
is, hov detailed it is, now greet It is* Me came to a tentative
conclusion that It would have to be s treaendouB enterprise end
that there would be tremendous aajounts of materials Involved,
which lei us to some concept of three or four or five voluaes,
very detailed, which then 1*3 us to the conclusion that no m e
Ban couM do it.
HI. JAMBSt

I hate to be so pessimistic because I

mentioned Sandburg severe! times. 1 think in another field, la

29
Clapham•s*

three voluaes cm modern Britain, which are bulky
eoougjb, I would think that It was almost •* or let a* put It
the other vay around — 1 vould be vary disappointed if ve ever
e w e to the conclusion that ve vould be unable to find an
individual to do the cotaprehenaive history. I think you mxmt
have a dozen people to do the monographs, and I think It is
equally true that no erne person will reed every single document
SH sll the vest archives that ve are accumulating. But that I
S K not sure that that Is necessary, because if, for instance,
somebody is working over Benjamin Strong*s papers for the purpose
of e detailed biography, be will have first-hand information of
the detail of each of the documents. Bo vlll know that nine*
tenths of them are not important for the general history. Hs
will know that one-tenth are vitally important.
If j&x have your ten or twelve people working on
the detailed monographs sod working in collaboration with the
person who is doing the comprehensive history, I don't think it
is Impossible to find somabody outstanding enough to take ten
years on this job* And if ve could, I think it would be vastly
tetter then if ve hsve five or six people doing it, because it
is bound to be uneven in that case.
lit* EUKGESS:

Ve are trying to get it out volume

volume, just as Sandburg did, or just as Freeman did*
*U- |^r

identification, see Appendix,

DR. CHAHffiBRt One of the interesting things ebott
that, Dr. Janes, though, 1» that getting it out volume by voluan,
vhlch 1 think would perhaps a i m acne sort of 6 chronologic*!
epfroech, would present me? m l difficulties because suppose
a men, for example, got a voluiae out on the early period, baaed
upon the materials that he would pick up, that ess* out during
the period, I think he would find later on, much to hie
raeaa*nt, that there were letters Is 1927, letters in 1926,
other asfrtala m n y iOssliody isafrrtsssa *bcut the early ^ ,
period and says out loud at that U s * a nuiatoer of things that
lie didn't say out loud in the earlier period*
I en finding, for example, in some of Strong's
letters of 1927, seme very pithy conaeots about the 1920-21
JAKES: But your major assumption that I
didn'traafcala that the writer aits down m i reeds nothing
1920. it is perfectly obvious is e job of this kind that your
miter will spend a year, or peitoeps two y w s * reviewing the
whole period* It starts sveeunsbly with m a s knowledge, as wiil
spend a year or two reviewing the whole period end formulating
hia pattern of ideas, end refining it and dividing this thing
into

-OIUMSS

and thanes, I don't think it will always

Possibly i t nay ©v«n happen after the comprehensive history i s
out, that 30BOOQ9 finds seta© nev Information that corrects «
part of i t .

Bat I d0n*t think It i s iiapossible to «rite i t

stoeiialegicslly*

2*t faet, I $m't IMok i t could be

esy other wy # for th« histoi*f. You esn tak© the
but tee hiataey MB»t begin yltfe v^^tevor date j w take, thro
eons through to whatever date you finish, idth ver-yiog
on varying periods*
MR. SSMASffs It is very obviouo that this is not
s self evident proposition. I vould like to try ay lisas st
asking e little different line of distinction between the coo*
prehensive sod wh*t him been celled the general reader. ©sst
lioe of distinction turns on the two different audiences. Let1a
consider the author rather* than tlie audience,
She A proposal, it s e w s to no, vould be objsctivei
You av* dealing here with objectivity. It tlispefose ©eneeivobly
could be done by the Federal Reserve if the Federal Reserve vonti
to do it. It would be ooc-criticcl; it vould net carry epproisal
with it. It would be an ©ccouat on a competent level.
1 vould regard 0 ss simply not possible to be done
by the Federal Reserve* This vould be critical, personal appraisal;
end sll the rest of it, sad therefore it would be of necessity
the vievpoint of whoever was writing it. And I really

M M tbat several people could vrite a general history. It is
not at all iaapoaaible. There are four gentleman sitting over
thare, I could imagine quite different volumas of general
history cooing from each of them, and I would reed each one
o f

t h e a u

"••••

• •

•*/'..' —

• '

"';

CHAEWAN SPROOLi And write a fifth,
lit. STSHART: Cult© true* There would be differ*
enees of interest, background, focus,and ao on* But I do find
it difficult to follow Dr, Jaaes its expecting to have the A
produce the C« Thia I find difficult. I don't believe it ia
a duplication of effort. I think it is tvo different paths,
fte A ia deliberately, by intent, not dry but objective. X
vould aey that C ia different from A and ia deliberately an
atteopt to afpndae a whole period, I had not thought of A
carrying the element of appreiaal in the aene way,
WU JAIfflSs Would you go m and separate congsre*
honsive history fron wCBwo^SJW^teaT
HI* S f m H f i My view would be two-fold an that)
one, that the sonograpba set you free fraa any kind of Integration
m& there can be extreme differences of length. I can imagine a
very short oooograph on seme of these, but an audience which
vould be special for that particular thing, it sight have a very
large circulation. A pereoo way say X nsast have a monologue oo

supervision; put it in the hands of anyone who joins the banka
division by division. Whereas I imagine sons of these others
as running quit* long, being chronological In character, and
there I would sey, differing,in nay own conception, acne appealing
to the technical and sows to a popular eudienoe j soae of which
would involve iaauae which would be coaprebenelble to a relatively non-technical audience, However, In contrast with the
Lincoln, I would saythet, the degree of t#chnlcel knowledge ia
iiaplied In all of those, a much higher degree than those who alt
at this table ere likely to acknowledge beoauae we don*t know
until we cetch the follow who hasnft got It vhat the difference
between the Federal Reaerve dollar srd the member's dollar is.
It takes a long tln» to learn it and raiimliar it.
If you get that in the offing, then you f ve got to
get an audience that can be either at sane stage. So I think
even for the general reader It la a banking audience, a congressemcue/isoo« oaojCLoijt and currency coosolttee* I could liseiQLne
• group there. But there are books about the Federal Reserve
which do a kind of popular general reader thing, which Is all
rlgbt for its purpose but not for this purpose. 1 have in nlad
the little book on federal service turned out by the board*
. B0H0ES3; Kr. Wood here has beam bottling up
ccoBents. I can hear hia choking over them for the last fifteen

Minutes*!

•;"•

••,'•'• ; TO. WB&t

•>

•

"""••

•"'

-••••••-

•

;

•••:

"'•-•

I didn't have anything profound to

say, bat I think thst there might not be ss much duplication of
effort ss mignt eeem st first sight. It Is possible that the
editor and director of the whole project would see all these
things coming through M s hands sll the time when he w&a giving
advice to the various assistants who were writing on special
periods, so that when be was through lie would ©lreedy have
covered the ground pretty thoroughly, as might do tlie one for
the general reader* So you wouldn't have there two joU of
fundeasntal preparation for the task*
MR. BEROKSS: I think Dr. Jsaes and Dr. Chandler
both bring out the point that our fundamental end essential job
here is to produce the comprehensive history. That is the thing
that isn't going to gat don© in any other way, and it is the
thing that Isn't going to carry Itself* Robody can get that
out In spare tine, that is the core of this thing*
When you have been working for a year or sooathldg
Ilka thst in collecting asterlel, you neve a terrific duty, sv*r$
body who baa furnU *s£ something to that, to use It* 1 think
our w i n job la to gat that done.
the genersl resdar thing I don't think we have to
worry too uuch about for a year. Several people will be able to

a © i t ,

•

••

•

•-

•••

•

1 think the monographs siailerly, if the chance
ooaM along we can get soaebody started on it, just as Chandler
started on tho Stroag one. I don't think we hav© th© M O W
obligation, I think oar prisiary obligation is to gat tills thing
going on tha oeavrehenslve history.
I am inclined to agree vith Dr. Janes that if we
e m gat a man to do that f u n rounded job, it la going to be
very sauoh better than having seven! writers, or anything that
tea to do with several writers dividing It up. It bears the
eawerka of it when you gat through.
I tiilnk your aain fellow could have assistance*
Si has got to have ace* aasiatance In digging out naterial, and
g y i

•

M. JAMBSi

•

1 think too 1 would enter a decaurrer

to Dr. Stewart'a auggeation that It could be written by the
M i a m i aeeerve System. I think it has to be criticel.
III* IliBliilill t Hell, the minute you get Into the
system you've got the problem that Win has had In mXn6$ of i^eleas
of Material* and ao on, though an awful lot can be done without
the system's releasing arterial or releasing certain items. Bit
I sgree that a parson within the systau would have certain

•'

\ •

lnhibitiona that voaM be rather serioue*
lit* RZCfURi The problem ia how to cover thla
wealth of mterial with a net that vill screen oat the relative
aaterial and not obacure it. It seeaa to «e that in the queations
aaked under II that we already have in the taonographa our topical*
the history for the general reader, which Isn't put here under
aooograptrc, ia really topical — of a little more general type
tout It ia topical.
She aooographa should run from very detailed
technical things to very bread*
Certainly the constitutional history, properly
written, covering the Material, vould be an eaaay, a docuiaented
and ennoteted eaaay in political science that I vould think voul*
have toe aene interest to political scientists that a treatment
of the theory of money, taalneaa cycle, etc,, vould have to the
economist* This ia a geature in political ecana«yt waA thoee « N |
the IBHS^ vMBwiftred fland^ii wbowwide^

&i msf own thinking, going over this, I vculd
ohMQge the B for MMfrepka*

I vould think that what we are

deciding to do is to go at this, in order to aaaure cooprehei
coverage, to really exploit materials. You can go at it in tvo
ways, o»ef you propoae to do a ooa^prebenalve history on a

•&&,

MM**- •
"TT"

chronological basis and vith the highest level of objectivity
M i tborougaiesa that e person trained,that con do; second, you
intend to consnisBlon the topical headings just es carefully as
you can, if the individuals that era assigned to thoee cctaaisalcrto
o m Hwang* therastarial,with the hope that they vill exploit
twMMi t o t h e i$l$si&#

• •' *

' '

• • *' '

Wben you got through iritis the vhole thing# I
think yew probably would have covered the materiels thet are
a v a i l a b l e .

;

•

''."

-- ' ' "'•"••

"• v • / ' - • ; • ; , • • : ; -

MR. 31»ART: A single author tor Ho. I?
M» B..iSRSIt Yes. Theso things aren't going to
come out In the neat order that applies to en automobile plant.
You might very veil H a d that scoe brilliant person doing s
topical outline 1mA unearthed material beok In 1916 that the
ana doing the comprehensive history tended to undor-eDspbaaizo,
Ufeet does It matter? If you go at It in theae tiro wsys, e very
serious approach t^coaprehsosive on a chronological beels, end
• iwjr serious approach to the topical, giving each ell the aid
sad support mai aeterialfi we can find, I think vhm you pit
through vith the project you have coae nearer to exhausting the
Material than if you tried to decide now on a prograa vhich 13
going to prcduce e pa*oduction line, asaea&ly line technique• I
don't think you c©n do it at this stage.

•

K b SUKftHf:

I vould liiaa to bear from the

eoonittee on this, it Is rether • re emphaaia, rearrsngmact of
bringing the general history into the topical.
"•••• •••;-' • : ;. '-»NU KiE.ftni

Xou a m mxm®®*

tboM*

Zom o f

them ere M ^ O y «peeielised. If you get the constitutional
history properly done, that gives as broad and equal level of
generalization es anything In this vhol© thing, juat m deep
ae ao^thing in the theory of
CHAIRMAN 3PR0UL: Karl, do you end your couEslttee
vant to diacuas or ccwmaot o» tl^it?

Wtm CHAKDl^fl: I shall feel far lasa certain tlian
1 may sound on this, but let s» mpmm

a point of vletr*

HHpttl that the Federal Roactrve ia quite liberal
to releaaing material, giving access to aateriale et sll the
banka and at the Bocrd, so that this traoendous mmmt

material thet W J M I M « » haa been finding here and there really
doea beoone available, including the multiple voluaaa of the
Be«lin diary and the (Hess peperc# and all that kind of thing. I
envisage a treaeaSouc oaiount of aaterial to be gone thro^h«
fhe next point hes to do with the vriter or
writers, to Karl aaid, he and I and KUnar are all sort of lonewives on this kind of thing, where \m feel that TO have roally

got to see tte mtjor pert of the raw asterial in order to build
up over a period of tiiae a feeling for the thing. We never feel
happy about just sending out a research mm and saying, bring me
beck tte gist of It* If tte writer should be a lone-volf type,
I just have awe doubt that in anything short of a lifetime te
really could do tte kind of job that we envisage for the cougareteneive history,
MR. RiHURt fhe lone-wolf i s ob.rioualy tte
topioal writer.

•-,•

• .

.• •

.'.;.:..

DR, CHARI3LSR: That's r i g h t ,

•••

•;

••,• : :v

Poaslbly one could

find tte Mod of writer vho ia tetter ct using the wcrlc of other
people ao te htammlt does not have to cull directly ao auch of
tte partjoary Material, In this case I think a single writer iaigb1
able to do tte comprehensive history.
MR. HIE mm%

1 wouldn't say a single writer,

didn't wan that te wouldn't have assistants, sane as fir. Yowg
W. CHAKDIJR: 1 lean zaysclf towards tte possibility of a general editor with, aay, three or four or five
writers working under Mm*

Imt m sort of outline tte kind of organisation
I would envisage. ®iia general editor, together with his writers
for tte different periods, end maybe one or two otter people

brought In in an advisory capacity, would sit down knmriog
thing already sbout the history of the Ifcdaml Keeerve, and aey,
¥t»t ero the principal things if* ou#it to be Interested inj what
ara the principal theoea that ought to bo developed* aa a
and then gat a cotaaon approach hj, oay, three or four
writers, who would then divide the subject up cm a chronological
beats, and then they would all start to work at about the

But they would constantly be in touch with each
other, with the editor being hopefully a strong editor and
oooataotly at vork on the neteriala witii tbese people so as to
smkm it a more mtnigeeble thing for each writer.
v

1 eee all aorta of diaadvantagec to tiiia, but et

the awaent I mmm&mt
t h e

work.

...^,,.,

••

>.-•.•

incline toward that aatiwd of organizing
•; ;
»

:'.-..( •
.

;•..;.
•

•

..••!• -..;
•

, •

•

•'

..--.. • . . »
-

•

m* XLE FlERi 1 think ao. It aeeisa to wm If you
get M m man to teed it up, try to do the best chronological
hirfcory he oanf with all the wiadom and atudy be can bring to
it, it then becomes e matter of M a deciaion to a considerable
ertent ea to hov be vested to go about it, and the nuafter of
aeeiatants he wanted, and the mmtom he didn't went, whether he
wanted to call then asaistanta or aaaocistes.

The working techniques would m y with the

individual, I would think. You vill have to find your man.
V

3DR. eHAHDUBRi I appreciate vary nich Br* Jaaes9

point about the possibilities of very uneven quality, failure to
fit the kind of integration you want despite cooperative efforts,
and so on* But ray oisly question relatee to the oegnitude of the
job
JAMBS: I vould accept that if It la iapoasib
to find sooebody who vill do the job fc&aeelf« But to m one
of the tremandously important things about this, and that vill
determine its ultioste usefulness, ia the quality of the writing
Hi knov that It has to to a Ejaoetary theorist aa veil aa a
historian. If it la veil written, than I think a lot of people
vill reed it, and if it is written continuously, with the s a w

voltnae vill go through it* But if it ia uneven and you^e oot
differect philosopbiea and different qualities of writing, then
X think it ©ats d3to the ahelf aod is siniply referred to, which
is ti» laet thia« eagr of ua want*
- \\ •/• .->

': ' -

- - .

' So that aiy first choice Is as individual ^ith aa

mm? aaaisUDtfl aa he couM U M # if we e m find the individual,
A l e 1 think the second choice would be your auggesticn of a
general editor and four or five actual vritera* But I think it
ia a long vay belov the first.

I certainly an not pessimistic enough to sssuae
ab inltlo that there isn't sonabody to do the jev ,
M L STBtfAHT: Would the oosmlttee at this stage

1 think I am topical.
I think I could write tha 0 with a point of view, but I know
I couldn't produce the comprehensive history, I wouldn't
loog enough. Hist requires a degree of long detailed work that
nobody at the age of &l.,ty-five ought to start* I could when I
get tbroutfb my praaant assignment be available 9m a consultant,
but there would have to be aoaabody who is responsible for gattink
out tha coopraiaaulTe history.
SPRO0L: A a v e is a tlaa relationship
hare. You used tha phraae, Mr. Qiandler, distilled out. That
connotes toa davelopasot of the cooppebensr/e history, and then
ttare is distilled out of that the various topical developments.
Q» tha otter hscd, there is a possibility that they go along at
tiia I M P tin as the work being done on tha ccoyapaDansive #ni
the source Material, ws& there also is work being done on the
topical developaents, not a distillation, conflate at least# of
vhst is going to be in tha oaaprebenaive history and everything
that is in tho source materiel, but recognizing that that is a

will go on Indefinitely, people writing new topical
aooagraptaa m& books, oo new sources, from different points of

you h&ve in alaa ttet distillation processt
lfi« BOPP: Lea gave a brief description of tte
. I t i s tt»t tte gro«P8l editor voald write ttm
histoacTr «ol te in turn would b© superviaing tte vritiug
of t t e coHpa^ehonsivo history. So thct in e smse they would be
going along together. Ae^f war* b«sod on this raatepiol ss i t
I don't think we ted in m&M that you have to
woit until tte coEapa?ofaK»iva history in doo© and Uwn tte
aditor would r«ad ttet wa& writ© a gaoeral history. & otter
wards, his supervision of the whole process would be in e
i s terns of vhat he i s going to put In tte gmmml
Is ttet s fair stetenesst, Las?
HI. CB&S&LERi

I think so, Karl,

turn out to be tte impossible — first I want to say that what
X bad in aiad i s obviously different from what Dr. Janes has in
Mind* But i f one ted multiple writers fee* the ^Bmw^tlHMfifttvy
history, and did have e general editor, them the ideal situation
would be thet t t e (gtummH editor would be the kind of s*n vho
could do the 0, t t e history for tte eaoeral reader.

But I did have in mind the point thet Dr. Burgess
B*de earlier, that the one thing that this committee probably
wants more than anything else) In the ooog>rehenslve history, and
thet nothing should interfere with that.
CHJURHAB 3PR00L; that is what we devote the laooej
f

;

•

•>•.'••':.•_

•

::'

H U CHAH0LER; Probably the asn who wrote the
history for the general reader would not himself wsnt to go back
and look st all these original materials, and so on, but would
probably base quite s lot of his writing <m this hard work that
us® done by the writer or writers of the comprehensive history*
It is for this reason there wouldn't be quit© ss such duplication
of work as this setup would imply*
DR* JAMK&I If I might bring another example
into it* I aa at present m the coswittee that is responsible
for Mr. Mackenzie Sing's biography, and while a biography sounds
simpler than this, Mr. King left one sad s quarter million pieces
of paper* I don't think anything from the age of fifteen wss
ever destroyed* and in addition to these mainorendB, there are
voluminous documents that an written in a minute script* And
the systeo that is set up there, McGregor Dewson, who is writing
the history, which will probably be in three volunss. and five
assistants, each of whoa is writing s aerograph. For instance s

monograph on labor relations, end HE*. Rockefeller, ie utterly
different from the monograph on Canada's changing foreign policy.
But you have theae five people, junior research
•eaiitaota, contlrwelly meeting vlth one another, exflhingtng
ideaa* M i probably two of theee mouographa m i l be out at about
the aasa tlm» as the flrat volume, althou^i they deal with a
uajcii later period of Mr* Klxig's life*
m. Wmmmt
M a

U l ^ t

•

Is ao»bcay writing a hlatory of

••••'•'•'.

•/

'• -

V;:?-

Da. JAKES, It starts in with M a birth and goea
throu^i to his Math*
m* BOHBBSs But that would be one volume?
8R# lAKSSs Three volunaa*

i»« BOWBSSi that will include a lot of thinga
that oontt oat of the topical*
DR. JAMES: it vill Include them in the M » M of
reproducing a little of the Material and conclusions.

m, mmaaa&i ism **£* ^ »«p«yate voiuaea?
IB. JAMES: Tea. fto inotaooe there are two
chapters lo the bic^raphy that deal vlth the Colorado strike,
aad Mr* King's relaticajs to Mr* Rockerfeller. There is a vhole
soDOgreph of nearly 400 pages on this, aa one of the very early
and important experiments in labor relstlooa, aod the thinga

that grev out of i t , industrial relations, ma industrial
relation* aaaoeiates, the activity of the Rockerfeller Foundeti ori f
then Mr, King's interest In labor legislation in Canada* thefc
will e l l fee II oeperate aerograph*
f

' '; * : '. HI* BttROSSS: But ltBfc!*e§or Davaon i s writing tho

, JAMEb: And the four or fiv# otb«r ptopl©
writing ttat
SPROULt But thtty Mt a c t i n g

• 3ANB* They are e l l Hiring together, they
adjoining office*, end they ere there not e l l of the 365
daya of the year, but a good slice of it* And they mem working
full time,
GHWDRMAH aVHCttLi Stcrttag out without any biaa
against any single volume, thia sort of apps^aoh cocxaends itself
to we. Itese nan ax>e not vying with each other to put out a
elttgl* volume,fcofcdiacussing the project and then one i s doing
the eonQpreheoaive job and the others ere doing the topical jobs,
ER, JA^5ES: l 1mm from experieiK;© that e l l tfce
a^ecialiata on the nwKgraptia who do find a l l the relevant
information bring down to HoQregor Dawaon tlie cream of their
ooafolng and save Mm the trouble of reading through a hundred

thwassnrt pieces m that particular point.
DH. Qrnmimt

In s way the thing that Medregor

Wmmm i s doing would perhaps be laore l i t e C than A, wouldnft

DR, JAMSSi Ho. A three volume biography of one
person i s vory definitely comprehensive.
m* CHANDLER: Yea, I *&—*

On the other hand,

these aeparete amogrepns dealing with various sapeota of Ms
WMMHS SHSRV^S S O B M H U S S it

H&Ha saaMk uy^PBOiss m t «• tWHittAfliA 4 ^ J xnBKr e a i

bringlrig material to Mr • Dewson1* attrotion, and doing soca© of
his hard dlffiln^ work for him?

•

-' ^ . ;,

•; \ '

SR* JAMS3« SO. I s t i l l stiak t o the point tost
i f us can find an matitoa®§ that that sort of a pattern, i f a aen
i s willing to glv© tec years of his l i f e to I t , trill g&re us the
best kind of book we can get. But i t does need aoasbody to
bring to i t a good teal of knowledge and who i s willing to taiae
ten years, and who i s going t o work very closely, not only with
Ms junior assistants* but witii these various essistettts vbo mm
writing

ttonogrsphs>

••'

MR* BOMBBS: How long w i l l the Jteckonxie Hag
b i o g r a p h y

t a k e t

..» •

•••••

-••"•....•••'

'•••/•

Mm tAI^Ss Its bean running three yeers* mad i t
will be another three years before the first volmm i s out.

4ft
Davtoo resigned ffcera Toronto • & * other pacpla
on leev© of absmaa frow tbair acadeaic positions for
shortatr parioda of about two y#ars,

mm wiping him on t l * thr#« volua© l i f t *

U JAm*

X think th©r©

S i t junior aasiatant, in feet, U

tha kind of paraon vithj mm kRcvladga of Canadian hlatdry
acc»wralc»# vbo w i l l go out «nd go t>rrougfc vhole f i l e s
o- vi^old soations of t t * King papers, and alnq^ly
bring in a l l tkm things th©t ©re relovent, not ettampUng t o
• p p i l s i tlsaa but aifwy aingla Dwrspepar coottent on, l e t ' s
Mr* Sing's labor Idgieletion, v i l l lorn brongrit in*
^ >R. BOHCB&S: la ba hevin- anybody draft section^
on periods, or anythir^j U i » that?
I. JAMBS: Wo*
1ft. wmm&t

Of coureo that cculd b© dooa, tba

oao take an esalatant and aaai^n him to thet period and l e t him
atart drafting M l aolroting aotariol.

Wijatber thet im a m a t t

of offort dopanda on the qusUty of the assistant.
®Mim8& SPROTLi Tills agflpsts to at thet i f
can Had a tiuffioi#wt amtar of mm to epeod thalr
tine m a history of en individual, that the United States

•

' -

• • •

4 .

, 3 >

to 1st Sfel* to fled a taan to do the Jot) 00 the hiatory of M
institution as important es this one, end that we ahouldoft
be frl#itene<3 by the magnitude of the job.
HU JAMSSt I don't think so. I dots*t think
I t l a e n i n s u p e r a b l e jot>.

•

y ••

•• . / , .

- : ' -.•• '

'.?.:":.{.>•:

m* BOPPi Just Incidentally, ve were thinking
til terms of five j e w s or possibly a l i t t l e bit less*

m# SWAHfs Per capita there s i * more people
of the type that CM svsllsble for this* ID Canada then you omtiA
t

^-•••••

'•

- •

•••••;-

•••••••

•••

' , • . , • : , • - : . • • ; • ; • • -

• . — , • : »

» • JA*SSr I em not so sure I S#*# vith thst,
but i t i s a very Hie* eoqpOlfleot* '

" "

- < '< - -

' <•"

Nl, BSMBftt Ve certainly haven't got fourteen

MR. JOTWARTi Ve mm Just looking Air s person
with s»tui'ity of j^gwent end vitb tte eosapgy of you tin
fTonsttitri£ hes hsppeoed In ay ssiw3# during tills
disousAion, which l^emDves aome of the issues and gives me sons
sort of pattern, which I think eme* partly from Win's suggestion 1
of living into tills by stagers, simply figure eotaewhat tfc©
diatincticme that me vere aaidng e l i t t l e oore elsborete, end tin m
adoptingftowathlngof the pettem that ha* been suggested here.
end tben look for the mm sod trust to Mm* It agioes I t aoaovhai

•

;

•

j o o a r e

r e a l i s t i c

<^velolpraorjt here,

• • "'^

••

'' "

•••••••

•

*•••:• v

.-.

•

1 would like to hear what the corasaittee '

fflawfcors think about i t *
:

•'•--'••'•")-••

-; •

• -

' . <

- *

DH. CHAHDLEH: Might I ask Win a question first?
Via, 1 didn't quite understand your point about

the scM»12*§ tiistwy f « the general reader h®£ag eOTsi^wei a
ffionograx^*

Could you el6bo2*ate i n t h a t ?

- ' - Ml* MmMMt

;;

•

';''':'' '- •

I t aeeo» to ma vhec fan got

UOWD

m&U$ what you war© talking about there, thare ves e cono#ntratioo Od ttse ecoocsaic aspects of whet the Sfcder&l iieserve do«a and
i t s relation to th© buoinesa cycle.

I t would mm to aia that i f

you re-defined Q to meat* that # to put i t into the general group
of topical outlines, 1 would think thet i f you had that as a
topical epperocch that was perhaps finally, to a l l of us who are
•ecmomists hev&, picked up in llo# 5# canstitutioijal history, aa
Karl deacrihed i t , i t would be alcaoat e<ju©lly the mm level of
generalisation for m® politloal theorist, tbat 7 ami B coiao p^tt ty
close to tiie *am thing.

%m th© rest of your- sionographa cen

becoae ?!K)re specialized end technical* '

"V ;

'.-

- '

; >v

' So that sjy auggeotion wss aiaply that wo approach
this in two wayas essl^a th© vary beat peopld «# ceii to liandla
the topical aspects, end find the test person to do the

•

eaDpErehenslve history, and have them work together much ee Cyril
Mat described that they are doing up there, each cue suprejne
in ale own field, but working together end oewtoing through the
eeae materials. I think the materials will be cashed through
by the tine we have vorked the thing up*
DR. CHAKDL^R: Baeentially then, Win* your oca*
cept of this eo~cailed general history would be pretty ouch
comparable to whet Dr. Burgess auggestod at firstt
'';*': - "•. •'• • .

M R * RlEfLBtt

I think so*:,,,'

'':"

'" ' ',-''

m* CHAHDLER: Rather then deeling with aeoy
n o n eepects of the eyateo, such as taking aooe pert of ti^e
conatiUitlowel aapects, sooe pert of the or^MaJUetica«l aspects,
Mat eo on, welding them ell tcgetaer. It would be mam coocen*
trating on Uie relationship of i^deral Reaerve to business

CHAIRKAH SPROTLJ

I think the thing that Walter

Stenart said cones in. He don*t went to tM;

of this general

hiatory ms being too definitive, that there are going to be e
mmtomt of general Mstorlaa mm* e period of ticie, end ea Burgeai
aug9eatO(lf the otbei*s might approach it frcjfa a different angle*
MR. Jm.<SB8&t late Ro. 5# constitutionel history,
which is e type of 0« In C m are thinking In economic tern^.
In 5 ve mm thinking In terms of political organisation* So

; ;r

la « N Q N t i m e two ere rather separate f*oa the other monographs. ft»e otber monographs a w much more highly specialized,
1 % JAMES: You aaid 7?
!»• BUROKSS: ftiet is another one* Under C you
ean bracket A, economic history:B, a conBtitutlonal history;C,
tHe realm of international finance, the? a*e ell general history
ill e sense, vith QX&toxmt aspects,

m. K iiFLSai Of course you ere going to cover
«ateriel tvlcef but I dooft think that is
CHABUttM SPRODL: With that approach, would i t be
p o e t i c a l i f we had 0 not a history for the eenerel reader, but
C would be scoa more important studies, and there would be than
S nhich vculd be the specialized Eionograpns of subsldiery

this bank supervision. It
ill depends on the MM

of parson you get to do it* X can

sceaa person doing that with a greet degree of generalization*
MR, SSWAEfs

fhe whole Asaaricsn scene?
Yes, On the other hand I can

that being done like a technical trade job. Check clearing and
collection j possibly s e w genius could put soae generalisation
U

•

'' ' A

;

V v ' ; . ! ' , '

•

•.•*••

••

! ' • • " . , _

•

•'

'•••'

•

'••••'.

'-.'^

CHAIRMAM SPftCftJL: fhex*e l a a eoniua^up i n t h e

For identification

see

P« 4- of Appendix at bottom.

'
:

•

" "•"

•

MtWmimt

I vould think that the caaaittee

i s acrasthing of • different kind XVota the csonograph.
;r

''"

• ' ; •••••••' • • : \ K *

tm9

REE'JURI

1 think

s o

A..

MR, BUBQSSSc So I think m cmM retain that
vith a good desl of justice, recc^niiting that under the monograph a
ycxi have an opportunity for a great degree of flexibility, both
as to ohapacter of treatowit, and the type of pereon you get to
do i t , and the extent to which they exprwo oplnlona, and ao
j

•

;

•

• •

•

••

•

;

•

. I ' ; :

- .

.'•"•.

•

. - ,

•

M4 NMttt: i? i t la not too subtle a distinctly
there la a difference la B^ Hind Ijetweeo tbe general tilatory and
the topical, 1 would regard ti^ topical mm outUned here m
being topical hat treated cbronologicelly, vbore required.
.

•

I
.

; ,

•

s
t o p l o a i l y *

•••, •

•

' -•

'•'..,

. ' V : ^ " ' i ' . •-.'.'••

IB, JAMESJ I think I agree with you.

m* amAKT: Beoaum for the general read«, he
-

follono i t aa a penodisation, and something la learned. 1 vouldl
also regard the general as including the emphasiit cm th© history
of ideaa raUier than events, vhere the comprehensive would te
eventa. So that you could have in the general reader something

•••$

:v. - T

••

•

of the background ofttietradition of central banking, transferred to America, learned in our circumstances here, and kept
in m kind of chronological order, but the development of the
ideas which have team operating vithin the system. Tbmt still
asks* It e mooograph in one sense, tat SB between topical sad
ohronologicsl, I thini< there is a difference of emphasis between
t

'-V

•

DR. JAMHl

;

"••-••••••''

' •';.•"'

' -

•

• '•

•••••

;

• • •'''*

.•••' .

1 think really what ve are doing is

seperating D, as Via suggseted. Following his suggestion, you
hsve got three monographs that should interest the general
public, (l) Which is roughly the economic idstory of the system,
monetary and business cycle, (a) Constitutional, and (3) International, and (4) the Benjamin Strong biography.
fkMNS you've got e seoood list, which in spite of
tbe genius coning along m& getting gsoeralizations from them,
are really going to get piretty technical.
CHAIRKAI SPROULJ

fhat is i#m% I had in mind;

nhether you seperete C aod D, or keep them together, there is
that sepsration.

>;'' ! ! :; : ."

\,i\-\ •;• .=.":••..•.

''* " '')/•:;.:;.;.,

jCR. CHA«EUGR! Hiere is e possibility, Win, of
still further differentiation here, ma& that would be to have
something very frankly a monograph, in the sense that it goes

Reserve policy and its r^lstio® to the behavior of the

00BBBittee4 tot doesn't gat at all into the question of orgsnisa~
tion, constitutional history and that kind of thing. H i m
possibly the history In the isore <xwprebsnslve sense, which
tries to distill out the wisdom in all aspects of this things
Including the materiel which is in a number of monographs.
fhat would be one possibility, to enlarge the
ttofet* ofttcmograftoby one to include this thing that you
have «mtioned.
;

Ml* R IEFLSRJ Y O U could only ——lartm* that when

the rest were fairly null finished. I doo't think it Is a
ppeaatng problem now*

-* ' .

2R. GHAEX8JR: Ml^it t ask a question here with
ragStfd to the tin* period? I think it goes directly to the
point that Dr. J a w s his discussed a naaber of times, as to what
would a reasonable period of tim within which to expect tba
•

•?••

ooapretoaaaive history to be finished? I think Dr. Jeoea has
nantioned tba length of ten years or so* Does the ccaadttee htm )
a feeling as to whether that is a reasonable parlod of tiaie, or
wheti-)er It ought to hit for s shorter period of ti»*f I think
this might lie seosfefiftt relevant to the final decision as to
organisation.
CHAIH^^N SPHOUL: X a i ^ t ssk >ir • Woodward to
aonaant m that. We started out with a five year project.

. VOGDWAHDt
Hit doubled our %lm.
tfeere m

I wee going to M y tfalt Br. J « H

Our grant vsa far fiv* years. I think

•lw«y», in all the discussions, the roallsetion that

that might have to be lengthened, and that a supplementary great
might have to be requested* But we said in good feith thot the
attempt would be wade to do It la tlw five ye«r period,
MR* E I E I I M I

Isnft H ^ e year* enough?

M* WOODWARD: Many projects do have to go beeic
for supplements, end I don't think It would prove onbarreasing,
Walter, if that did prove to be the eese, to go back.
m* RiEPUSR: X shCHild think you ahould pian on
eQenleaionlog the topical studies to a yser am on the gdneral
history, flvm years,
m # JAMBS: Z think five years is too short for
the cos^rebensive history. I think there really are two stages.
If we weot elong on the scheme that I suggested e few minutes
ago, that Win elaborated, within the live years you ahould get
wast of your monographs finished, finished and pubUshed, You
should get at least half of tho co^prehenaiv© history#
lastely half, so that the continuing thing would be the
of the coBprehensive history,
But I vould doubt very tmch if you would vithin
five years finish ttoe kind of coauB^hensive history that 1 vould

like to see written, which la definitive, Is veil written* la
critical In its appraisals, and that covers the whole ground.
m. R^f^LEH: Do you feal that ao strongly that
we should go back and try to get more awney D O V ?
VR. JAKES: Ho. I think that would show In the
ewwpiY uttsoflDpauoaii

'•

• •

Mfl« VOODtfAHD: We hava a fairly good receipe fop
the atew now, and tola problem revolves around our catching the
MS« 3frKi,ART: With full time being a requlreaentt
m. W « m m > t

I vould cwtalnlj think so^

W . JAI353: It couldn't be done otherwise. You
vould have to live with it, and dreea It and aleap It.
H U CHAHDLSR: I think, Walter, we might asmd
your earlier cora^nt- You're looking for a aan with laeturity of
afie» and both the energy and 111% expectancy of youth.
CHAIRMA3* 3PR0UL: It would nelp ua to w#k* prograi a /
an eatchicg CHIT rebbit if we knew hov we were going to proceed.
I have gotten the idprtj-dalon that there la aoaa unanimity of
opinion on the approach wiiich Dr. Jaiaaa and Win Keifler have
suggested, of tha t\ill-tiiae mm who would start work on tha
comprehensive history, with a group of other man, whatever you
want to call tban* who would be associated with him# working viti

' j *

• ::•

"•

bia,

but who would fee on their own cm t i m e topical studies,

aonographa, books, reports, whatever they *lgfrt be called.
• BUH98SSt ftee full men to have s o m assistants

CHAIHMAK SPROULt Hs would have s o w assistants
down the line to do the digging for him*
Is there say objection either vlthin our comnittee
cm the history of the system, or on your cosmitto©, to that sort
o f

a p p r o a c h ?

•

' -

"* "

••••^•••-?-••••

M U M l t : I think it would be important that the
specific topics cover a sufficiently vide range to Miss sure
that the material is covered. I am not sure whether the
aeries of monograph* listed here — they havenft been constructed
with that in view. On the contrary they have been constructed
from the point of view of taking everything but the core of it*
tod if now we shift the approach to topical, then l vould have
m off-hand hunch that we should reconsider the specific r-ono-

DR. JAN85: For instance, is enybod> writing a
Wt* of Carter Glass, which you would need a monograph oft
MR. WOODWARD: I did have eos» question on this
point in a broader sense, if m mow* away freg the procedural
to this aapect. There laeaa to me to have been implicit in the

dismission, bat perhaps not explicit, the feeling thst important
parts of fM» ought to be in the breeder, rstber than the narrower
style of coverage, and it did sees to ae that from that standpoint there vere sane pieces that were perhaps lacking, or
pertiajs net nede sufficiently specific. One was the whole
natter of personalities, Cyril. We have only one personality
treated here, and that is Benjamin Strong, but I think as Karl
said earlier, the Philadelphia Bank, Indeed the whole system,
consists of people doing things, and that's all it ever has or
ever vill consist

of,

••

:•.•'-

. • ••

• '•

;

Personnel policy is an aspect of It, but I
voodered if it vould be possible to do something of a broader
nature, either several biographies, or one book dealing with a
iderabl© number of si^nifici nt personages • the law Yorlcer
thing, for exanple*
•' HI, MK&t

iiiynard Keynes,

• U WOQUWfflDt Exactly. Perhaps that would be or*
to the general public* People can read about people and
get more interest than from the abstraction, perhaps,
the other queation that I had is also in going
mm

to the non-profeaaional or technical people, such M are

around this table, to what is the system about, and I aeaai this
not so such in a popularlstic sense, as in a distillation of the

Ltt as illustrate. All of us live in awre than
m

world, end I tew been living in tiro worlds for a conoidersb^e

tins, of being very such interested in tbasa osttere but living
vith business men and lifa insurance a m vho are not at all
clear about the difference between the Federal Heaerve dollar
and the mmhev bank dollar, and their lack of clarity goes a good
deal further than that*
Bat on the other hand, they are interested, asoy
of them, intensely interested in what is this system about. M o w
than one president of w o n than o n life inaurwee eoaqpacy has
aaked m over a period of tia» — and must have asked you, Baggy
vhat mm m read that will give us rase Idee of this, not in its
technical phases, though we do need to too* something of its
operation, but vhat are the real questions, vhat are the real
problems vnJLch necessitate s systea, sni vbst is it that It does
try to deal vitb.
Obviously the answer to that would be different
at different tints* But the snaver to tbat certain question
wuld be helpful to them. I am not S U M whether this is in the
gsneral history, or whether it is covered in the nooogrspbs, but
is the devising of the general schema which we era trying to do
here, it would sees to as to be important, that this job not be

. •

. .

\;i-

•

~~"

•

6 1

finished without a 2*esoiute attempt to do that job.
MR. 3T»ARTi

Put a title on that.

m. VOC»DVARD: I had three titles, Walter, but
I vasn't satisfied with any of them, tee I bad written down as
"The Federal Reserve System aa a Public Body*11 Banking yea, but
as a public body* It m* created by Congress, and it is the only
really successful creature Congress has ever created*
The otter thing that I had dovn was the questions
of policy. Whet ere tba policy queatloos, oar what have been the
policy questions at different times, that the system baa attacked
and that have attacked Urn system*
*

the third that I bad was "Central Banking in

International Politics." That is quite different from its role
in international finance. But none of those titles are exactly
what I em seeking.
£E# JAAJSSs Do you really mats the effect of
central t*fAfe£flB business activity?
m. VQGUKAftEU That certainly would be pert of thi H
but I would not do this solely in a daaostic secee.
MR. BUK0ES5: You f re talking about what I vsa
tidying to talk about* Cyril* Aa C, ooe vay of putting it would
be Urn iscpact of Monetary policy on the economy. You nmxM bring
in th© Treesury policy# businesa crises, you would try to

popularise It aowabw, end try to I N N P just this point that
B o n

b r o u g h t

u p .

• ••>•"••••: v . '

•

••

• ••

X mist say that I am very greatly jUa$*ess*l with
the » * d of it* I think it baa been very disillusioning in the
past, particularly last aptring when we did vhat waa a pretty
traditional and claaaical central baaietag p?oce4u» of fe
thinga up, or iielping them tighten, vtma we were in the last
phaaes of on inTlation, and the Treasury worked along with it,
tod there wae abyamal leak of uoderatauding of what we were
trying to do perUcularly in Wall Street. And that mis after
mmsf imtom of teaching of central banking in eollegea, or of the
ocupaign that Doo end I end others were aaaoclated witii in t^e
coasaittee on public debt policy, which of course bam 6mm the
aaa» alley,

. . -

. '

;

X nay say from another point of view, I don't
think this group haa had a report to it* we bad with ue in the
Treasury during the laat year m fellow naaad Ted Braunt vho waa
one of the beet public relations, advertising mn on the West
Coaat, who lived with us during that period* Recently he caae
up with the idee that a group of business people ought to bestir
theoseivea on educating the /oaerican people cm what zionetary
policy moens for the*. Kow their motivating factor la that
Safeway Stores, and sons other of their clients, don't believe

* For identification, see Appendix,

that l a any crisis they ought to do just whst Barney Barueh
advocated, icsaedlately p i t in a complete blanlcet of direct

' '' '; " . Wm% they aro doing i s building a public ceoipeign
on that point* You are going to $s@ ada, full-page advertiaeraentis,
oo thia subject, film, end so cm* Char-li? Abbott^1 a vorVd.ng tip
a basic book for them, which i s being wrkad ovw» Well nov,
there i s no basic boo':, in a senae. In e certain aena© tills
C history cen be a basic book tram ooe point of view cm M s
bx*oad t o p i c *

• '

':•- . "

^ ., • _ • _ " . . • „

' " "" ' ' ": t: m* WOOIMARD: I t seems to me that there are
pe*bap6 tvo different types of Joba here. One ia a popularization
In x,te$ sense of reselling a maas audience. Ihe other ia
izetion in the senae of reaching the intoreated and intelligent
business mm in e way that will make theae laattera 3?eal to him.
Popularization saa&tiiaea eooiaa to be a vord of deprocstion,
elaoet* I t is amiss to think of i t as such* We are not taiMitg
about a Sunday aup$>lea»nt, !•,* ±Q creation, but soaething th«t
n i l l toove on mm intelloctiifu plane to the interested people,
':

. '.' ' '"

Ml# STfik'AHT: Tiiere i s an e/©n worse word which

I am inclined to adopt Baore end more, tfa® more I l i ^ t vitb ttede
ptractlcal aiattars. fhit i s propegand®. Thet ia supposed to be
* For identification, see Appendix,

...

• • . . . .

V^V

very lew farm* As a matter of fact it is only applied nlatoary
tint I tew in mind, tat 1 want to drev a moral from these
studies^ Ifeere is a paractical moral to be drsvn, and X don't
vant that history ao objective that it doesn't pass a jwfljiWllt
upon the events along to the future*
Bo if I follow you there, X think it ia quite
right, "«itt*e*ltone morals .to be drawn, and I think people, by
and large, the popular mind, learna by way of morals, much better
than it learns by events. It will attach itself pro or con, and
divide, but it will learn a ^cral system in relation to a raooetary syateou He obeoure it in another* Those who aay sound
oooey nean e aoral system*

m. WOODWARD: That is f«HPf good. You would aay
if that mm be done, it would be another vey of getting it done.
HI* CHWBQ&BR: One of the reasons that Ho. 9
appears under »ooognftoe# ia that ve had the feeling that there
atgtet be other biographies that should be done, and ve hoped
for euggestions from the aMfeex* of this group that m oou3d
discuss.
MR. M M B S t

I viah there were aore figurea that

vere worth vriting a biographical chapter of*

Mrt. WOODWARD^ Individual biographies ere good.

a certain aenae however X wonder if they really do the thing.
Thia aystern haa tiad tout outataotilng mn, but the eaatnce of it
haa been t group of men voriclng together to acoorapliah aoaething,
m I see it. That tstt never bten at©ted, or written that way

til be d<3fie«

'
- '

;

. .

Strong stands out, thet in the early days there vat out dominant
personality, but in the later days it was t group project, rather
than a personality project,
........ m. V'OOWARDi mam of these mm are still ©live
.•'•.••r

t o ® *

•

« . KffttBS: Sce« of the beet of them are s u n
alive, (Leughtor)

MR # yOGI&ARD: But it ml^it bt possible to dia»
ouaa the iaeo tt t group, irxludlng aoae that ere still living,
vhereaa an individual biography of a peraoo still living would
bt mich more difficult.

beto Ln t$m latter part of our discuaalon, certain topioal wrltiiiga

Econoraio, constitutional, Inttrnatiooal, personalitiea, mA tht
general in the terms that you vere talkicg about, Mr, Woodward,

66
you arid Walter Stewart*
MR. REIFLER; ttie moat important part la hov you
ecnmiesioned it. There la an appalling absence of an understand ing of finance. The American financial market baa got to
have a writer* Z don't know hov you coattieaion that. that la
what bothers «•#.../.
CTOIRmK SPROULJ

I know whet you oaeen by C O O K *

issioned, but if we had a book that covered the eubject, not
superficially, but popularly, and drew scorn Morals, you would
have the first step toward doing the job. there la no place
where theee men can go to get an understanding of whet it ia
all about except a narrow viewpoint, with blinders cm,
MR. RSIF1EH: We have tried to get things up
there at the Saw York bank, and we still come up egainst the
aaae ebyaoel thing*

. '• ; *

"•

m * BQRQB9S! The clearing bouee baa done aone*
thing* there have been things put out* I think our "Public
Debt" has been a perfectly readable thing*
Ml* STEWART: the people mm going to be hard to
find, because sooe things are going to be right and aoaa wrong,
end you have got to put your finger cm what was wrong*
mmm
eaotion on this*

SPROUT: You will have to atlr

3TBWAOT: Exactly. Then there will be dls*
cuaslon and reeding.
DR. JAMES: I wonder If that really doesn't c o m beck
to your comprehensive history, because one of the reasons that
things like the Public Debt memorandum, or even a book on the
impact of the Federal Reserve on business, isn't read is because
it lacks personal

appeal.

'••

• ••'"•.

'• / ^ — ^

• -

. • ^;.v - .'^

I think in part, to get this over, you are going
to have to show conflicts of personalities, and the pattern of
the environment, and then draw your moral with all the strength
you can find, and pungently, but I think It really comas back to
the comprehensive history to get that over, end I think If that
history cones along, a voluaas at a tins, which means It Is taking
specific periods end specific problems end specific crises, and
showing all these conflicts, it aey do precisely the thing that
isn't achieved by the other booka, because they lack the sort
of drawing room discussion possibility*
MR, s m t M T i

It la harder and harder to find this

author. You can caanission and organize a piece of research at
one level, objectivity. You can get the documents and you can
tell a chronological story.
MR. H W t

"That la the reason that these topicajl

things say be sere apt to produce that sort of thing. And there

1 think our pcrocedure la sot to «ay, ^ell, her© Is sosaething
we ought to produce* How where la the producer?" If we mm get
the Idee around that iffiv,wood wants to write a monograph cm
the Beserw System, If be tea swathing burning in bis soul*
INI say, "Cora© along, «e will help you/'
Lester has already plunged in. I hope that he
will create a controversy. Ha'a got a good one to create a
controversy on, Strongs poUeies in 1Q24-27, tee easy money
policyt which In the light of history I think was wrong* Halter
M i I ware right in the middle of it and working with him,
MR. faOOWLBRi I don't think you are going to get
this morel Judgment if you aiag&y describe the Jtederal Heaerve
individual sQuiraing between pressures he is under, and don't
bring in the thing you are really concerned about, the lack of
understanding of the problem by the iBBrket.
B0HCK5S: Well, there was an episode in
and *39t of the battle between the First national BenJc and
Hie Federal Heaerve Bank, that went into the question was it
proper fbr a meol>er bank to borrow. Old Mr* Baker took the view
that the First national Bank always had snooty when money was
seeded in the street — that was a hiatorioal position — and th^t
the FWersl Reserve Bank waa there for them to use, and if money
was In short supply, they were going to borrow «oney maA lend it

t o

t h e s t r e e t .

-'''''J -•/••-.••

•.-?

- • • « • . . . ,

- , , . < > • , .

•..

Wist vas <me of the ressoos vhy the restraining
policy of '28 sod 929 worked so slowly, because Kr, Baicer vss
the Most prominent, but there were several of his ilk, who were
seeking thet. Maybe that particular illustration ought to It
written up»
••'"•••"•-'

' ' " V .

D R .

J A M B S :

B e f l o l t t l j .

'-':'-••' >

-; -.--'•••

Hi, BURGB8S: I don't know If that is In the
..»>

M M M V d

0 r

n o t *

'' '

•

•*. ••

""•••'"

'":*

" ; ' r '"" "

• •

*©• STEWART! Tt^e coti^iitteo, vill lisiit ourselves

to tilt Internals of JPsderal Hesorve and try to determine the
policy as If they ver© ideas in the abstract. Tm history of
the ^fierel Reserve In tertsa of depressions brought upon us
would oftlos s wonderful account of the development.
DH. CHANDLER: I should think as s matter of
fact, ¥slter« this would be one of the principal thewes In this
thing on the constitution©1 history of the federal Reser/e, the
prooess throu^i which the ?tederal Wmmpm

responds to onenges

In the general ideas in the coosunity, to pressures^ not only
witriin tilt system but outside of gvverm&nt, tmm government.
I aa wmm thet in s sense it Is s responsible academic institution
reacting to theae things, but through processes that ere quite
different, perhepe, froa those thet would characterise certain

goverraaerit

a g e n c i e s ,

• • .••.

., - \

M L WOWARD*

••

•.••••• \

/-1

<-;..--.•

Southing thst Rsndy juet sat*

to » to warrant s e w emphasis, at said it asy or may
not be In the record. I have felt from the beginning that one
of the important operations to be carried on was to get things
into the record that otherwise vere going to be pretty soon
lost, that exist mm only in people's mmorlea or in files.
' -.
t o

g e t

.
t h a t *

• M* SSZIiatt
•.

...

-:.

Ht&B approach of ouwi is designed
" .; • • •. -•;:.,.•.;• ;

•

..-.- ••;

MR. WOODWARD: This involves a considerable
amount of inter/loving, as veil m looking at theae docuaent*
thst «p« slresiy in the record.
MR. m m j f t : Doean't it alao assn getting these
monographs starts, because it is the autnors of the monographa
saying ve want to get whet we oan on the record In theae things*
Than we cocas up with the otter kind of screening.
DR. CSMBKJRi

I think in our discussion now ve

SMI constantly to k&tg> in oiod Urn fact that these monogrsphs,
ss Karl indicated earlier, vere chc^an to s conaiderable extent
becsut^ they ley along the borderline of the m*M caaprebenalve
history, rather t!»n beii^ in the midst of it. for sons purposed,
UP.

JSIBSS

has indicate, you ought to hsve some monographs that

would be right In the central materiel of the comprehensive history

........,..,.

...

. ....

I think Kfcrl** suggestion that ve parhspe ought to review these
aonographa with that in mind Is a very good out*
IK. BOaCBSSt

1 think that list of monographs

should l>0 treated aa euggestive and illustrative, rathar than
d

•:•..•

:•.

•

'•

: •:-

• -.•-••

•

••

.-••••

•

• •

;•

•-••:

CHAIHHAH SPROtTLi 1 think ve have been easing to
a distinction between these studies along tha main stream and

vholft diacuaai<«i has led in that direction*
W * BOPP: Yaa, tha constitutional history and the
aowtary hlatory, thoaa ara in tha c«nt«r.
J

;

- . - ' , ' * . V i

.''

•"••

•

;
.

•

'••

•

—

•,

' " : . • "

•

!)'...i

•

CHAIRI5AH SfRHIL} They ar# In the center of the
aain s t r e a m

•

,-.

•

- ••

MR* N M K S s

- ,

•

;
:

• . -

Sonebody could vrite one on tbe

atoek morkat and the P*edorel Reserve end make a very interesting
history out of it. Hie whole question of Margin reQUireoaota,
*tat happened In *28 and '29•
Id. WOODWARD: That 1B one that vould have conslderable readership too*

m. MMKSt

.•

•>• .

.;. ,: •• .

'.. •

Maybe that Is the one that vould get

this over to the public more effectively than the otters*
m. BOHOBaSt The whole period of 1927-28-29, the
relationship with the fWeval Reserve, and the boning stock

aartot, reduced credit being thetoyto the whole thingt We are
sitting around nov and asking what doea the present stock msrket
aeao in t m m of monetary policy. tad thla question of margin
requir«nenta, vhen if ever is it right for the SWtarel Heaerve
to say that a sen can only borrow twenty-five per cent of tte
money that lie puts into his stock, loir uuch does that restrain
7

t h e u s e o fe q u i t y i nt h e country.
graph there*

, '. - • "'•

•;/ .-'• '•'" • ••»'•••

;

There i s a very good
•;

!•••••••

mono-

- ; • •• • •••• ••-• • ;;/•

•• -. » . JAMBS: And that will break staae tiiir ground

in nonetsry theory. Ho oneteaever answered that question.
CHAIRMAB 3PR0UL; You only have to look at the
financial pages of the newspapers to see where the news value
la. In our financial record it is In the stock exchange and the
stock market, feat gets noat of the space, taoat of the discussion. That is apparently the Interesting thing• The things
we pit out, and you put out, Win, they doo't hove emotion, they
dooft have aexrals, they dcnft have any news Interest, so they
are not 2*a£ hy the people.
"

': -

'9 v l H K t

•

: • . ' - .

- M f . .

there Is another mm m agriculture

and monetary policy. Agricultural people, historically, have
enoMoualy interested in monetary policy, starting with the
P o p u l i s t s .

••••>

'•

• ; • • ' • . ' . • • . • • > • • . . .

. v . '

;

•;

' • „ .K

•

ku& historically In the twenties, you

had the vhole question of how la eligible peper to to defined,
particularly vith raapect to agrlcoltHM« This would illustrate
the kind of pressures that oom on*
m. mmm*.

©>®3# ax* all different ietnfti of

croaa-aectiooa.
CHAIRMAK SPROUL J

Does this discusalon of 1

give you the basis for going ahead Uxoorvw with your furti^r
consideration of this vhole project, Kferlt
MR. BO??: It does for much of It. It certainly
ladloates the necoaeity to rooonsider the wiiol© monograph apjroaoih
to the thing* I think ve shouldn't be too disturbed by not
having got dovn to 2, 3 and k9 beceuae in part theae ere part
of tim prooeaa of this discussion thla riming, and are baaed
eaaenti^lly on the asauuption that there would be a general editdr
e t c , ratter then the type of organisation that is now envisioned,
SPROUL: We certainly have touched on ht
« BOPP* Yes. Bo that m»ch of that vould be

h l a t o r y *

•

- ' ' • < : .

• ••

•

'• /

• '.•

;

•

;

••

•

;

••::.

» • dttWJLSR: Yes, I think that the diecuasioo
thia s^ming lies clearly led to one poHay declaim that you
gentleaw will have to aaioa, #nd thet la # do you want to think el
this in term of a ten year rather than a five year project?

There bsve teen statements that It very definitely *ould be •
desirable to think of ^ore than five yeers. Vbstber it vculd
be tan or not would be another question. 1 suppose this would
have to do cot only with f l a e a o M but ©Iso with the vftoXe:'- •:•-'••"
!

•

recruiting problem, staffing problem, and ao on. This is one
-

o f

t h e

tosy

d e o l s i o t i ^ i #

' ""' • • ' • • •

•• •

••••

•

•..• ';

•-

-•

••?

* -'^ \ ••

CHAIHMAH SPROUL: It is possible to think of it
in tenas of a five year project, but having in the back of our
•lode tbat it may go to ten years, as la dealing with the Braziliaoa. You want to kmp mmm pressure on tae pjoplet wailo at
tbe seas tins ve liave in tlie back of our
I
to

«IO S O W « 0 M «

•".•.." ;

'';:

MIX»SM

oiat us tasy have
' '

"• "••

IR. fltOtXs Isn't there c«» crucial thing on
that. What kind of e ocowltasnt can ve m'Mf Wo clearly ceo
sate a five year cooraita*at, end ve clearly vith our present
finances can't neks store than five yeara,
m. BU80WS: Unless ve budget our sun of aoney
so thet it lasts more than Hire yeers •
m. 'wOOUVAHD; We would have to gc back an3 get
permission, and I have no reason to suppose thet it we L. ; c
be considered.
» • JAMBS: I donft think it is really es import* it
as that, because everytaiog excepting tbe final voluae,

mght to be caopleted vithir* the five yecrs.

otb&r words i t i s a ftvt year project with a ccapwretively aiaall
project beyond thet«

•:""•'

•. '

> . •'

;-* •'

; "V:

MR. BGBGBSSi I would think that ne could budget
vith B l i t t l e something left wms to carry
-

m» JAJ^B; Al®o iT taie first jflve 'gmn i s

successful as ti^o di^cusaion eroursd tMji table suggeats^ 1 don't
think tbero vould be eny diTficult;/ of fimncin^ i t further,
•

CSUBMIOi SPTOUL: That vould be *®y approeca, of

rimnciiig i t for five years, vith almost esuuranoe of getting
further help i f ve heve <3cx» the jcft) Uict v© heve talked about

TR. CW-SDUxu

I vas thinking in terras of this

all-importent om p^rsioa* !Hi# aiagle vritdi? vcxili?. carry i t e l l

the vay tbrougb» I don't know who this person might be 4 but
certainly if it is going to It something O D the order of ten
i t ppca>abiy will mm

e l l hie present oonnoationa

I doo't kmNr of any unlveraity, for oxaarplo^ that vould give a
mm a tes~year leave of abaeooe.
> five*

! » • «WSt

I don't think they wald give Ma

I thliik the Baonc^raphs will have to be vritten by people

with one 01* tiro years' leavea of absence, and anybody who took
the big iiiatory certaicly vould sever a l l other contacts, and

I wouldn't tiiiok tuna decisive thing vould be with M a whether yet
guarantee him any salary in tns sixth year* If that was vhat he
was worrying about, he would be the wrong person.

»r

Mi. BUrtOSaa: la would be the tost Ban to toach
a couroe on Federal Reserve in the country.
CHAIHMAfl dftiWLi If he does tliia, u© would have
no concern with the sixtti year ond ttie eighth year. Thot vouid
telea e ^ e of it»eif.

tiR* RKLfLSRt I thiok five years is satisfactory,
' "' ' '

;

' " m* WOOWARJ; Bandy has a good rocur-d in this

natter* On the other project to which he alluded, I beiiove he
went auooeesfully baak far four, (daughter)
lit* Wfltflt^S; It wan seversl. We started out

$39NAE¥: TAB chairman hM no difficulty In
finding himself e job afterward.
Mil* HPRWftft; And the people who wrote all have
joba too.

When I think bow saell that wee and how big this is.
GHAIRJIUi SPROOLi Heptoeain^ the question, with

this discussion and its variations of approach, not a complete
change but variation of approach, @n® with the five year project
as the project we ere mam talking about* does your* catacoittee get
tsum this discusaion this ooroing what it needs to pursue its work

IT
towrov vita mmsm%

BUCU OT

Uiat ea ve have

» ¥OQD: 2 am slightly Uasy aa to Just to the
has crystallised.
CHMRMAK SPRODL: I ' l l try to ouianiri^ i t f
©varyooe ©lae u^j' hav© t ^eiovliat &i£tmmn% view.
I t O0gmn. to s& that so fsr ss I t has
I t h»« oryBt«lllJWci firat arouod tbe JLa@s tlmt Ur •
Vic ilie 'lur hav« nmggiifiil^ tb»t tbare wmU hm cm mm f u l l - U » t
vho vould be \-rci--klng on Urn costiprehomlvQ hi&Uxrx with
and u^tli a i ^ - ^ r group of partOD6 or two-y«ar aan# who would be working oa various
aoBogrophe sod aasociatad vitl: Mm in the whole gaooral ptrojoct.
S » t TO fer &a tto outline i»r« l a concerned, inatead of hevir^
C# a history for Uie jpoaral reader, ami I), uouoGraph^# we would

have tvo groups, however me list them, one of which uould be in
broad stream of Um cotajxrebenaivo hiatory that has bmn wm,tlami
beres economic study, constitutional atud^, internetiooal studyj
peraonelity atuayf and * geoeral atuciy, which voulu ii^ciude tbe
cliBttte, the pa^esaures which have been cautioned; and then tfcm*
w w l d b©, ^eeoKl9 U-e i:ubGidJUir^, tlxa peripheral monographs on
tbeae other aapects of fbd^rel Eesesrve operction end reictioca
with the Treaaury auU vitli toe banking aysten vhich have been

•

(

•

H , ' ' . - . . '

•

•"•

;

•

Hated, to addition to others tliat might be suggested*
- .

_ *':

Ooljog dovn to 4 f that, so far as w@ have son» f

8i^0»8t8 a singlo writer for the work oo the coffipa?«h«aftiv©
history and aovoral vritars for both th« broad 3tr©»m book* mS
tho tributary str««m raonographa. .

• '• ^ -

m« BOPP: im mm m tim «eaegp*pfe>f «#v^«i —
pratallj particularly these dealing vlth the broad s t r w a *would involve tba f u l l tla» of a paraon for a yaar or tvo#

«A'.yfe;.. •• -

Otbers, technical moQographe, ccxild be dona pert t i a a . ^ • ;. - ~ .
• • •

''' •

' . WL. MIMMi

Could lie pit i t this vay, that there

ere tvo vaya of trfing to squeeze vhat i s relevant out of > :
•if*-

historical date.

One i s a very careful ep^proaoh geared pritneril^

to time, the chronological approach. The other i s the problem
mpgatoaoh, which tries to take a problem tr<m a topic and *,. . <:
explore i t *

Ar«3 ve plan to us© both cm an equal baaia*

^" ; .,;

IE* JA3®3: ©3«re i s the other point, that i f the

.r.

fi&KGgrepb* ere well done within the f i r s t tiro or three years,
they are going to toe invaluable to whomever i s writing the com*
prebenaive history-, because m w i l l tedtr vtiere be vents to aok
;

«»ations end vhat original docu.T>ent3 he mists to exaiaine*

CHAIBMAN SPROUL: ThBt auggesta a break-off pcint
here, nito JUmAi at i2$30 t -:-": ...
•

•

• .

a P Ate

"Mk

'--

. >• •'..

•

jMfe --

•

-'V

•

* .

•

. .

79
AFTIIHOOH SESSIOIf
CHAIRMAN SPROUL: We are going to take the
first three minutes to try to bring Mr. Willits up to date
on our discussions of this morning, since he was not here
and since he has to leave in 20 minutes or so. 1 will ask
Mr. Woodward to read the stenographer's record of the
policy decisions, insofar as they are decisions.
(Stenographer's transcript of Mr. Sproul's
summary at end of morning session was read,)
CKAIRMAH SPROULt

I think in general, with

whatever changes in wording or emphasis each one might put
into it, that was the result of our discussion this morning, which ranged over this whole of 1 9 and always oame
back to IT: who Is going to do this job we are talking
about.
If we can consider that we have for our
present purposes completed our discussion of Roman Humeral
I, and partly of Roman Humeral I?, which we can take up
again, and in tint order of this outline, is there anything
under Roman Numeral II that you now want to take up, Karl?
]|R. 30PF:

I think it would be preferable to

move to Roman Numeral III, which concerns the question of
the coverage of the comprehensive history.

It raises the

80
question as to whether, if it Is the purpose, which I
think the group yesterday felt It would be, to trap and
preserve In a sense for all time all of the information
that is now available with respect to the Federal Reserve
System, that would be not only the documentary material
which Miss Adams has uncovered in such great volume, but
personal interviews, and also, since in working over this
material one really forms a judgment as to what should be
taken out of It in terms of the questions that are being
asked, if we could move on to point A under that, What
Aspect Should Be Covered in All Periods? This would, in
a sense, be a suggested kind of feeling for the writer of
the comprehensive history*
CHAIEMAH SPftOULi Did your committee have
any suggestions as to what they might be?
MR. BGPPs

Illustrative only, perhaps, fham

might be, for example, a consideration of first the background and environment out of which the real bills ioetria|*
grew, its relations in the Federal Reserve Act itself,
and the application over the time, difficulties encountered
with it, modifications to it, etc., and coming on through,
which in turn leads to the question of instruments of

81
In a sense the eligibility requirements and
the discount rate were the important instruments of policy
in the earlier period. But that was essentially a fetling
that the central bank should be responsive to the needs of
tradei etc., rather than a positive attitude on the part
of the system to the money saarket and the economj, and
when you get this transition a greater emphasis on the
open market operations, demonstrations of the inadequacy
of real M i l s , and so on, as I $*y, that is simply illustrative of a line to go through the entire history, aad
appropriate questions asked, and information secured to
get that story through.
That is merely one of the various aspects $
mn& I think the group would be very much interested indeed
to have the judgments of the men here as to other similar
aspects,
Btfore we get that, Les may have an additional
comment to make*
DR. CEABH)LERs

Mo.

1 was just thinking that

probably it would be impossible for as today to try to
come to any complete list of the things that should be
dealt with, either for all the periods or for some of the
periods. But 1 should think that if people would make

80
suggestions of things that they thougMcertainly should be
covered, that this would help to set the tone of It*
•

.. - :..

CHAIRMAN SPROOLs

Do yott have anything to add

to that, Dr. Wood?
DR. WOOD:

I thought la that first session

or volusae that we would consider the politics of the
formation of the Federal Reserre, Something that a
political scientist would be veil qualified to take up,
the interplay of different groups In Congress, the whole
background of forming the Federal Seserre System,
CBAIRMAI BmOWLt

Ani that would take Into

account the politics of it, Including the attitude of
bankers, and the business eomunlty, as well as the

politicians.
!5R« WOOD: Tes f and monetary traditions and
prejudices, points of view of farious groups, etc#
CHAIRMAM SPROULs

Walter, do you have any

t Sothlng that I feel urged about
at the moment.
CHAIRMAN SPROULs

Dr. Jaaes?

' .

DR. JAMES: An Idea was running through my
Strakosch*

head to remember a statement that Henry W&W&k

For identification, see Appendix.

once made,

83
that the important thing about the gold standard was who
conducted the orchestra.

It stems to me again you get

three periods with different emphasis. First period, the
drafting of the legislation ant the activities up to 1914,
with the activities of a new kind of central banking unit
in a world where someboc^ else was conducting the orchestral
and you could believe In real bills and automaticity,
and

©n»

The second period was the period of uncertainly
as to who was the conductor, and perhaps alternating
conductors, perhaps collaborationt where a whole series
of other factors come In to focus and you begin to think
about monetary policy.
The third and final period is the one in whicji
the Federal Reserve System itself, working with the
Treasury$ or competing with Treasury and stock market
occasionally, is the conductor•
•I . .

So that the first really is the period in

which the climate of opinion is elaasieal 19th century
theory*

The second is experimental. The third is the

hammering out of new theory, with all that that implies.
The things that you bring into focus in each period will
be slightly different because the whole scop® is different.

84
-,:..•

CHAIRMAI

SPEOULJ

la that third period, you

have us conducting the orchestra, so far as international
monetary policy is concerned*

law international institu-

tloai hair© come into the picture, as well as the Treasury
ia a mot*© active way. So we are mot actually conducting
the orchestra without assistance or competition.
PR, JAMES:

io. As I saw oa the football

field here yesterday afternoon* the band conductor does
his best to conduct with fire small boys jumping around.
CE&XRMAK SFHOULi
o a

this

q u t s t l o a f

ME*
,,,•.,-••: . ..

:••••

REIFLIRJ

Win, have you any comments
•

—

•

> . • ..-...,_...

Mo$ I harea't,

CHAIRMAI SFEOUL: Eaniyf
MR. BURGESS: As to what Dr. James has brougl

out and what Karl has saia about the pressures$ I think
ia each one of these periods the pressures9 political and
otherwise, that are brought to bear are enormously
important. !# have lived ia the shadow of the 193S
depression, la terms of political pressures, for a loag
time now. The account of those pressures is a major
explanation of the way the system behaves, aad the event
that's goae before, the major event most recently,
c o n s t i t u t e s the r o o t of m a n y o f the p r e s s u r e s *

• •••'.• . ••

I)B. JAMES:

I think too as an addendum to

that, I dislike the idea of thinking of some parts of this
as appropriate to a political scientist and some to an
economist, because if this project is really successful
it again gets back to a reintegrated political economy,
which is one of the things that it fundamental,
.

CHAIRMAN SPROUL: Don?
MR. WOODWARD:

I was hunting fora way to say

it. I think I would like to underscore the integrated
political economy. That is the phrase*
H L STUART: There is one statement which
I don't know whether it falls in here or not, but those of
us who have b$*n with central banks are likely to
the experience and omit the periods of war* This was born
into a way period, has been through thret of them, and tf
you take business cycles or if you take the use of instruments for control* the time divides more or less equally
between when you were free and whea you werenft free.
Just how one deals with the war finance as
an aspect, 1 don't think it does integrate by periods
very much*

The mind is inclined to skip it, anyway, but

if so, then it ought to be drawn together as to how a
central bank behaves or can be expected to behave in wartime

CHAIRMAH SPROUL: An* I think there it also
running through all of these approaches how the systea
adapted Itself to changing conditions in terms of its
Internal organisation and functioning, which may h a w
changed so that you could see it, or it may have changed
»o imperceptibly you couldnft see it.
MR. BO??: And the adjustment, in a sense,
of principles to events. One has principles which he is
following, but take an experience which is perhaps sore
recent.

If you have an announcement of a Treasury issue

and the securities are actually issued, then the maintenance of a market until It is issued is again one of the
types of pressures*
M.

. ,.-.••.• , •

BORGISSs

We have a phrase for that, Karl,

When we do some things that we don't like to do, we say,
'At this point we will rise above our principles.1*
MR. BOFPs

(Laught er)

I think it might be well if w «

had Miss Adams to ~ive us her views.
MISS JJDAMSs

I think there is some worry on

the part of our three experts about the business of the
size of the documentation, the size of the material that
there is to be covered.

If one really goes through this

thing from the beginning, even assuming that your writer t

who is still a question mark, has had considerable
experience in this field and knows the background thorough]
if ht starts in to re-examine it and starts in to go through
this material, he is going: to have a terrific job* He is
going to have the kind of job that means a continual
piling up of revaluations to be faeed«
That thing i§ what was back of the suggestion
that no one man could handle the whole tbin^. You get in
all the policies, you get in all the events, you get in
all the causes of the events, you get in all the people*
You1re got a considerable mass there.
Tester day there was ajgreat deal of reaching
for a kind of definition which ai«aft blot out, or didn't
discard anything, but made it possible to bring it in

set it in proportion. That looms as one of the major
problems*
&

It is possible that if we fln£ this genius,

all these worries about the si%e of the thing will disappear
but we had yesterday three men working on it and we would
be content with any one of them as this genius, and all
three of them kept on being scared at handling the mount
of the material,

I have felt today that there was too much of

a danger that the committee would dismiss that problem
too easily* That is what has been in the back of my mind
at I listened to today's discussion* that this still looms
as a Mount Everest of material*
ME. REIFLER: Can the committee do anything
abotit that? It seems to se we hare to rely on the seleo*
tirity of the people that do this, and it seems that
baring this dual approach, subject approach and approach
by chronology, that it is our faith that one or the other
does uncorer what is relevant for preserration^

But I

don't see how a committee can draw the lines of screening
on this»
MISS AMMSi

Woulr! this help the discussion

at this moment? We had said yesterday, don't let f s get
thinking about people because that always arouses a lot
of reactions that w# thought would be better for six weeks
fro® now. But I am not sure at this moment but what it
might help if you threw the discussion open to possible
people, because then that clarifies the kind of mind that
you are going to bring to bear on the thing, and perhaps
makes the difficulties and the possibilities sharper•
CHAHMAI SPROTTL: I think we have approached
it from the ideal, and perhaps it would be better before w

89
conclude our discussion to decide on a means of going
about finding that person or persons from whom a choice
might be nade, and organiae a starch for that person*

But

I doubt if we eould throw out ideas at this stage which
would help us to clarify our discussion*
••": "

I think Win Me fler suggests something with

respectt o this topic, what aspects should be covered in
all periods. We oould lay out soat general lines of

-. , .

approach, but the man who is going to do this job, if he
is the mm we want working with the material, will finally
deciie what the approach is to be, the essential things
and the significant things to be covered.
•:

MR. BURGESSi

There is perhaps one question

that Mil* Adams' discussion raises. Tou can't put all
your documentation in the document itself. We have
probably got to visualise an appendix volume, or volumes
of source material. Some of this will weave into the
text, tome of the supporting data, but there will m other
documents that are too big to Ao that with, or that &on 9 t
fit in quite naturally andjyet are too important to past
over ani leave just as letters or other unavailable documents.

So that we have really got to visualize an

90
a p p e n d i x *

•.•• •

;..'.•• :..:. •.. •• ••.-, ••••'••

CBAIRMAI SPROTJLJ

. ;

•

They have here (MUiotated

bibliography and selected unpublished documents, of which
a liit would be published*
MR, BOPFs

I assume that would go on In aajr

event» am 1 correct? . •;, . . ; . . .. •. • ..
....

CHA1HMAN SPSOTJL: !•••

.•'.,.

BE. JAMESi

•• . .,
- :

I think one of the things fou

should remember is that out of any documentation a« Tast
a« this, a tremeadous amount of it will be uaiaportaat
to the final history, and another Terj large ohtsak will
by duplication.
MR. B0R6SSS: And that problem of selection.
pulling out one paragraph that is important, is a terrificjally
time consuming Job. That could be done hj assistants.
MR. BOPF:
assistant*

It requires a very high quality
-

•.

•

.•

CHAXEMAff SPEOUL: Hi M s to be an alter ego.
MR. BURGESS:

Idld It with the little rolutt

of interpretations of the writings and speeches of Strong*
Of course, that was culled out of something three times
that sisse, going through Congressional hearings, crossing
out, deciding what to keep, and so on* 1 didnft find any~

91
body I could trust to So it, but one should,
DR. JAMES: You hare to distinguish the
Mki&t of fuestioas and the finding of answers. If the
person who Is writing the thing asks the right questions
of his assistant, they oaa then quite often dig through
a lot of material and find things that bear on that*
•• •

ME. vfOGDWARDs

The other part of this problem

is getting into the record the things that are in peopleft
minds, such as the chairman13 and Randy's and Walter*8f
that are not now in writing. It seems to me in some
respects that is even mot* urgent than the other problem
of handling what is already in writing. This certainly
should not escape, and it certainly will add a great deal
to the history of the system if w@ can do it«
I think some of the discussion* here today
hare demonstrated that point*
ME. STEWAETs

I think there would be an

economy of time and a gain in result if someone undertook
to prepare a questionnaire# which would not be Inclusire
but so a person had notice. I sm quite willing to talk
about these things, 1 enjoy it f but 1 think there is some*
thing to be said fdf> easting a common form for those of us
who have lived through the same things and at the same timi.

•

The Issues w o u H be quite sharp. You might hart several
views and you might get some balance of opinion*
ifiU WOODYARDs

That w o u M be very interesting.

I W « 4 e r if that ii something: that our committee could
consider t omorrow and before the next meeting* as to how
to &o that* Hr ..
•;

.- •

• /•• '

_ .'". , . ;

.. ...

MR. STBtiXT: 1 guifle to lat*rritw»# m

._' ••.,

whateT©p it is,

•

M. M)O!5¥AR!)j

If that i»nft expanding their

job too much*
MR. BURGrrS: It seems to me that is going to
be tough, because a lot of «« art ready to remember a
thing for coirrera&tional purposes, but to write it out
is a different thing.
MR.

STSWASTJ

•
IO,

; ..

. -.;

you are interviewei but

you are given notice that this is the area of the istervieir.
MR. BTOGESS: But even so I was thinking for |
example it wa« either the spring of 1923 or 1924 when
Ben Strong came back from England, when he had an officer**
council meeting and toldjus his philosophy about easy money
keeping money easy, so that the British could make their
recovery and get back on gold, ami we ought to let our
prices rise a little bit, it wouia make it easier for

everybody, i o n should fallow am easy money policy.
Norsan ami the British economists had got at him, 1
suppose that was the spring of 1924. But that preceded
the move to nark up securities that summer.
That is easy to tell this way* but to be
sure you've got it right ••
-.:

ME.

SOPFJ

And there is an aided problem.

It may be that a single questionnaire doesn't do it. I
a® thinking of» for example, Dalgtr* who wrote aa article
in Current History oawBil the Federal Rtservt Plmy Politic
which was the s tory of a differenoe of opinion between
the board and Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago.

I can see a questionnaire designed for that
episode in which one, on the basis of memories and other
things* could reconstruct it with a fair degree of aeourae
But that i® on the basis of a questionnaire for a key
episode*

• •

• I am wondering ~ I don f t kaow who is going
to io it, and siaet you said the eonalttet sight consider
takiag out these questionnaires •• whether it womll.aft
bear further developnent to see If there art key episodes
in whieh a person could design interviews and then •••
asoertaiE in advance who are the persons to be interviewed
* For identification, see Appendix,

u
oa these things. It would be a Job but it might be very
fruitful.
DR. CHASBLSEt

This fits la with tome of th«

experience we hare had with Miss Adams, where she has been
trying to find guidance in what material she should get,
in what form. Some of us were not too helpful to her
because we didn't know what questions to ask, what subject
should be covered. So Miss M a m s would be working blindly
to a considerable extent until somebody could tell her
what the major things would be.
I think in a sense also this devising of
questionnairest which is probably a good idea, would have
to await somewhat a formulation of the important questions
Of course9 the other thing is, Walter, 1 find every ti»§
I talk to you I doaft know the right questions to ask.
MISS ADAMSi

That's funny, but it is the key

thing. Tou all laugh, but that is the key thing. It is
what questions to ask that will bring the thing out you
are groping for, and groping is a large factor in this
whole process at the time.
ME. WOODWARD: Perhaps, Instead of asking if
questionnaires could be formulated, if the committee could
ponder this question of how to go about it, it would make

95
the question much broader*
•' •'• •'

ME. fiE.FLEa»

•• .-

••

Itnft there a place In this

for something like this! I remember Matt Da iger case to
see me and see other people, asking us some questions,

and all of a tuddon lie came oat with this article which
you always thought was extremely well done, putting the
elements and the process together. I later asked him
where he got it*
• • •

He got some from the Board*' ' . • •

But picking up this noon's conversation!'

RanAy was talking about the episode of trying to save the
Bank of the United States*

1 always thought that that

was one of the key episodes of the Federal Eeserve System*
I was saying to Mildred after lunch that Livingstone could
take that episode, if we go after it, ami write a memorand um
on the failure of the Bank of the United States* It is a
very small commission but a reporter type, with his background, could turn out a good manuscript*
".•• 7

ME. WOODWARD: That would certainly help to

broaden the possibilities for personnel to take up some
of these episodes, if one could take a very explicit one*
(it this point Mr. Wlllitt left the mooting
r

)

•

•".

-•

•,•;

•

•.

";•

. •'•-..:

CIAJEMAI SPROUL: I think it is clear, tttos

96
Adams can perhaps best testify, that the interview has to
grope for the questions as well as the answers, ant that
thty develop themselves to a considerable extent during
the course of the interview*
But I think, as I visualize your suggestion,
Walter, that maybe we coull out out sending a prospectus
to the interviewee but have a general Idea sent to the
interviewees suggesting to them a line of questioning
which could then be worked up with things that came up
in the course of conversation*
ME. BBRQESSi

That would be an- interesting

question to ask with the material that you have. About
the steps in the failure of the Sank of the United States,
which began about October, 1830, and went through December
it would be Interesting to see what the records show on
that, whether there are memoranda. There must have been
some*

- . - .. ^

. ..

. '• ' .•.-•!. STEWART?

You could hardly ask a broader

question than the first one: what do you regard as key
episode3, from a variety of people. You are bound to get
a different collection.
iGU WOODWARD: That would be interesting,
just what the participants thought*

JIZS8 ADAMS s If you wenta pound this table,
you would get a different step from each one.
MR. BURGKSS: That's a very good6ne,
CIAIS11AI SPROUL: And that would suggest
perhaps some work by the man who Is doing the general
study, with the help of his committee, to select out of
that variegated list the key episodes which would fit in
best with the whole project, and which should be pursued
and parceled out, and if there are enough people who
agreed on the Bank of the United States failuref and the
man to do it, that would be parceled out as a job to him*
1 donft think we can ask this group to make
up a complete questionnaire for the use of interviewers,
but I think, as Don Woodward has suggested, you might
consider this general problem of how this whole important
job of Interviewing people with recollections might best
be undertaken, with J&ss Adams1 help. She has done so
such of it already*
What did you have in mind on what aspects
are limited as to time?
MR. BOP?: In a sense, those would be episodes
some things which were very important at one time and then
ceased to be important*

There are some things that

throughout* as the terms and conditions under which credit
It mads available. There are others*

In other words,

simply to make sure that these would be covered in i •.
comprehensive history.
CHAIREA8 SPEOUL: Are you intending to siake
• e m suggestion* as to those that carry through the whole
history an« those that are of temporary ?riffttfi#*»te? ; ,
1GL

BOPPJ

If the members here have any

particular suggestions to make, we would like to hear thea
CHAIRMAI SPSOUL: Do the members here think
that Is a fruitful approach, anS if so t whether they have
any other suggestions?
MR.

STEWARTJ

me reasonable to apply*

Ifve got a test which seems to
Is there anything you can Itara

from it? What can you learn from it?

Congressional

hearings, I don't call that a key episode and It is not
continuous, but there is something to be learned from the
theories within the lifetime of the Federal Reserve, the
t series of Congressional hearings that have been heli.
And I wouldn't be surprised if we studied the debating of
them, the timing of them, the personalities, that It would
make not a very difficult and a rather Interesting thing*
Looking Into the future, a person says, this is what

V-'V"

-;••'

happens^ every so often a hearing.
I rathert hink any event or episode, continuing or separate, from which one could say that something
should hare bee a learned out of that, could be included.
What was it that was learned?
It.

That would be my test of

If would have some bearing on the future.
.. •

MR. BOR&ESS: It would be perfectly clear,

for example, that the agricultural inquiry hearings in
the summer of 1921, to which Benjamin Strong went week
after week and laid on the table his whole view of the
Federal Reserve System, made an enormous Impact on his
mind with respect to agriculture.

It gave hist sympathy

and it got him acquainted with Anderson, Sydney Anderson,
with D'Neai*" of the Farm Bureau Federation, and some others
a connection that he kept up when they came to see him.
I think that conditioned his mind toward the easy money
policies of 1924 and 1927, where he got another impact
from th@ foreign need for an easy money policy here.
Of course equally the 1950 Douglas committee
hearing certainly made possible the accord.

I don't think

it would have been possible without that. Those are two
e x a m p l e s .

•

"•••

••";•-•.

,-/';

•

••/•

Those hearings make much more of an impact
For identification, see Appendix,

100
on administrators because they are called to account for
their stewardship» much more of an Impact than you would
think from the economic observer view*
IE. BOFP: The concept th&t the system is
responsible to the Congress has real content*
MR. WOODWARD: This is a monograph of some
importance*
MR. STEWART?

I hare got them listed under

the monographs further back. It would make an interesting
one.
ME. BOFP: The inter-relation also, that if
the system recommends legislation and can give a coavincin

story* it has a fair chance of getting it. And in a sense
it is creating administrative law. It runs in both
directions.
ME. STEWART: I would like to see a person
undertake a session which tries to tell Representative
Patttanf8 theory of money. We must not think that he
doesnft have one. It has occurred in the history of this
country a number of times and should be treated as a theor;r
of money, and some conclusions drawn from it*

* For

CHAIRMAI SPROULs

Some moral® drawn fro© it.

MR. STEWART: les. But it is going to come
identification, see Appendix.

101
up again• He will be dead and gone and it will come back.
BS» CHASDLERs

Probably the representative

would be amazed to see that there really was order in his
thinking*

•;

•-:. .;

CHAISMAH SPROtJLs

,;- .

. .

' '"••'..

Perhaps we have gotten

a little away from what aspects should be covered in all
periods and what aspects are limited as to time, with this
more general question that Walter Stewart has suggested
as to a test for an aspect, whether you have learned
something from the situation, or the series of situationsf
which contributes to an understanding of the whole develoj|*
merit of the system and its environment*

•

MR. BURGESS: Tcmfve got that monograph of
•

•

the FederalReserve and the Congress.
DR. CHANDLER;

In a way this will probably

be handled somewhat in the constitutional history9 but
there might be a case for a separate monograph on that*
'

HE. STEWARTt

The A of that coverage would

be what would come into the comprehensive history?
10t. BOPP: Tes. In a sense, those are the
themes that run through it, with all the varying answers
that are given to the basic question of what are the terms
and conditions under which credit is made available*

102
DR. JAMES: 0on 9 t the things under B also
hav* to cone in? It stems to me that anything that was
significant In influencing the operation of the Federal
Reserve System, even if it only operated for a year,
needs to be in in that period*

I think for instance of

the gold pool in 1914, which is a very significant thing,
although it had no real Influence after about the beginning
of 1915.
1R. BOPP: Quite right,
DR. CHANDLER;

I think perhaps the history

of this Roman Humeral III will help clarify the Questions*
This was drawn up at a time when we suspected there might
be several writers dealing with different periods. There
fore the question of getting integration, continuity and
consistency of approach became a very important one. So
we sale!, what are some of those k*j questions that ought
to be asked, first as to every period and secondly as to
a particular period.
«

For example, your gold fund matter could

perhaps be limited to this pre~Fe4eral Reserve history.
MR. BOPFt

And you have certain things that

were important in their whole evolution, which might hare
a significant period of quiescent, and unless someone had

108
his attention specifically called to the fact, let's see
what developed there, it would be omitted* •
CHAIE1AI SPEOOLs

la a sense* then, you want

to and hare to now review your thinking of coverage in
terms of the discussion this morning*
MR. BOPPj Yes.
CHAIRMAN SPROUU

It was on the basis of a

somewhat different approach that you raised these questions
DR. CHANDLER;

Although 1 think the questions

are still relevant even if you have a single writer.
CHAIH1AI SPRQUit

But you woull be thinking

of them with that approach in mind.
DR. JAMES;

It occurs to me, Mr. Sproul,

that something has come out In these last ten minutes
that might be extraordinarily helpful. The question
asked by Stewart a few moments ago: what are the key
incidents in any particular period?

I wonder if a logical

and useful approach might not be to try and get those
key incidents and make up a skeleton of the thing that we
are talking about, history of the Federal Reserve System,
not that it would bind whoever was going to take it on
but it would rive us some sort of idea of what goes into
the comprehensive his tory, how it divides, and where we

• . ' . , ' • •

•

'•

104

would need supplementary monographs, . :. ..• •'.•••• (UUIRlttK SPROQL*

•r

' :••••;.' : - :..
T M s would be an aide a w w i •

t«l> th* M * Who was doing the Job, not an outline for M m
t o

f O l l o W *

•:•:"'.:.'... :\;\ •

..• •: ••;; : ' 131. JTllBSi
o m r

thinking*

. ••!.: \ . : ,

..".-.

•'

v - " ' - •' :

;>.

K o # Just to'Ktlp Hi CFystalliit
. • ••:,,. '

DR., OliBDLER:

wktrt this lsads*

"' •"• •..- ;•:.

' . ' - ; • .

'" '

.;•.!'.•••

I am not sni1©* "Dr. James, Jtt«t

Perhaps I earn point up mj question by

indicating how Bob Warren thought this wholt thing might
go &h®alL

Ftrhmps Instead of having a comprahenslTS his-.

torj you simply takt a £§w k#y deeisionsi the action of
1919 was ®m of the k®j deeitlontf'I btlitire, that h# ,; • .
wantsd to highlight.

I think the polioy during late 1920
I Ioaft know what the

and 1921 was another key dteislon.

others were. But he thought it wouldn't be neeeesary to
go Into all the adnute detail about the aon-orlels periods •
.••:• .

&a~
•••.• I gathered you ar® not leading to this organi

tlon o f the study?

. ,,

;

DR« JMESs

...

... ' •. ; • •...•;

Id. fo take your singular exaspl• •

if we agree! that the lnoidtnts of 1919 and 1921 are two
of the key iaelients, they of course need ample deseriptic n.
But how io you lead from 1919 to 1921, ami what is the
ehange in the elimate of opinion aa<l the eoonomie periphex 7

105
of the things that your historian has to fill in?
I am aot tMaklag of an episodic history, but
If you have knocked off the signposts, roughlyf then you
know the things that are to be covered in ths history*
Also you hare framed a question as to how you get fro® one
to the otherf which the ultimata his toriaa has to deal
with in terms of emphasis.
MR. J30PP* This suggests too that the ultimate
historian would feel free to have persons of high quality
work in something of this kind and write for him a p&rtloujlar episode, or whatever it may be, to be sure that he would
rework it*
DR. JAMES: Also it bears on your monograph,
beeause If certain things are so significant that a very
substantial part of the comprehensive history is going to
deal with them, you don't want a separate monograph on
that thing. One would kill the other.
..•-v--•.-._.:••

CHAIRKiK SPROULs

As you say, there are

episodes, but there is also a continuous flow which has
to carry forward in this complete his tory, which binds
together and gives some of the meaning to the episodes*

MR. BO??: The episode grew out of something*
CHAISUiAI SPROTJLs

And it resulted in something,

106
»
Is there anything more you would like to
discuss

o nR o m a n

Humeral

III?

••••*••; :;--. - ,

•.;-.• ^ .'.">•.:;.>_;_*

MR, BO??: Elmer, do you have anything to sayf?
:' VR-, lOODt

Ho f 1 bellere not#

. • -, .;., -(

MR, BOP?: I guess not, Dr. Sproul,
CHAIEMAI SPBOtJtj Miss Adams said, and Mr,
Waodwart! reminded me, and we hart just reftrrtd to tht
ultimate historlaa* that we do hare this que s tioa of how
we are going to go about finding the maa, first the man
and after him the mea f for these jobs we ha*e been talkinf
about,
U p to aow what we have done is thought up
some names among ourselves and made some inquiries about
then, and perhaps some approaches, but it has been fragmentary and disorganized.
Is there an organised approach to this Job
that you men who art more familiar with these things than
| am can suggest that would assure ue that we were eoreriig
the whole field of finding out who the men are whom we
would like to consider, then finding out their interests,
and the best method of approaching them with the best kind
of bait to attract them to the job*
Can we use the British system and adrertise

for ttiii f or ust tlit Amtpltftn t j t t t s of stealing them

M. BTOSBSSj

l i t * or wit&otit aaranw w t i f l -

(Goatiaaei on jagi 10?)

. ' • • .

• . '

•

:'. •'

•

' " . *

;

- - .

•

'•:.; M:-:--\-

CHAIRMA1S SPROOLt

:-..

•

•: '

107

Is there an organised

method of approach to that problem, or must it be inspiration*? If someone says who should write this history,
my mind goes blank*

I can't think of the man who should

write this history*

But I think perhaps if ail of the

possible sen irere brought together by suggestions fro*
this committee, and then we had two or three of our
members work on it actively ana bring It to the full
ooamiwtee, we might get together most of the possible
names and then decide on the method of attack*
MR, lOOMAEDs

I have some feeling that we

have pursued the inspirational method probably as far as
it can go,

ilxat has been worked.
DR. CHANDLER*

Inspiration plus perspiration *

CHAIRMAI SPRQULs

Ptrhaps they pursued it

without having taken this first step of knowing quit©
what we were asking people to consider, and what we had
in mind, and without having drtssed up our lure sufficiently to get them interested*
,

MI, STEWART:

One of the troubles is that

inspiration leads to almost anywhere*

The United States

Treasury, the Federal Reserve Board, and one of the
banks, that is where the talent la assembled.

108
»* JAMES:

I wonder whether that Is true*

I am not saying there is no talent there*
need that sort of talent?

I mean do we

I think there are two first

retirements for this* After all, whoever takes It on
is going to have to stick at it for & good many years,
The first requirement It a rewj considerable
enthusiasm, and therefore I am doubtful if it Is a question of baits and lures, because if anybody takes this
on that doesn't really want to do it wholeheartedly^ it
will be a very* very slow job*
Then secondly. I think perhaps we need a
Ban with more historical experience In writing*

We have

rather played down that* le have talked about monetary
theory, which is obviously essential, familiarity with
banking practice, and so on* But the whole technique of
writing history and using historical documents is one
that most of us as economists don't come in contact with*
I wonder if we have properly explored the
field of people that are used to this tort of thing ant
have a good deal of enthusiasm*

Of course, you are up

against the basic question, if you take somebody who has
already done several outstanding things, that his youthful enthusiasm is apt to have diminished.

If you pick

somebody that hasn't, you are taking a considerable gamblo
CHiXJUON SPROBLt

How did you go about this

problem of the Mackenzie King biography?
DR. JAMES:

I am not sure that we have gone

about it in the right way# Speaking within these walls,
I as not sure we hare the best people. I think we have
got perfectly competent people, ie aid it bj inspiration
and knowledge, anft I regret t* i|j>f partly on the basis
of finding somebody who was within shooting distance of
retirement so that he could give up everything else and
settle down* Quite frankly, 1 think that he was a little
too close to retirement, intellectually.
MISS ADAMS}

J*y I askja question! Supposing

that you ohose •• I name these names only because we ail
know them •• Allen Kevins or a Samuel Morrison, or one
or two other top-flight historians that you could think
of # would you think that men such as they, who have had
no specialises training in monetary theory or in economic
theory, could handle this subject?
I think that really Is a title thing on whiei
we need the decision of this committee.
DR# JJUBSs

I would say emphatically no, but

If you ehose a Upton or a Glapham, ytt*

For

identification, see Appendix,

In other words,

110
it must be history plus economics, but unless you have
profound economic experience I think it would be im~
posslhla,

i
WR. BOPFi

Is the Inference of that that

Sir Join*1s Histary of the Bank of England would be the
kind of thing 7012 would envision as comprehensive history?
PE*

JAMES*

I think it is a lamentable

failure. Let's rrarabtr that Clepham wa® taken on tt»
write an official history, which was taken on when he was
well over 70«

I think those were examples that we might
•

avoid*

\ •" . . .

CEAliMt SFROULs le avoid at the beginning
an official history*
m* JMMSi

"*
As & matter of faet # I don't

know a good central banking history*
MR* BURGESS: Mof most of the central banking history, in some waysf is Gregory's*little red volisme
of quotes from hearings*

.. ..

'<••..•..

• ^;;f;.:r::, " • DR, JAMESi -But evidently for a very limited
audience* because you have to know a lot about what he is
talking about. As a matter of fact, I would say one of
the best is Riohard Hyde's

Life of John Law*

Lawfs bank

wasn't a central bank but it was trying to 1I0 the

For identification, see Appendix,

111

tiling in embryo, and there you do have an admirable delineation of the pressures we have been talking about,
and the impact on the community, and the secondary impact
of the community back on tht bank.
1BU BURGESS;

)f course, there arenH many

economic historians, are there?
m. JAMES: Ho*
ME* fiURGESS; That know both techniques•
They do one or the other*
MR. RiSFLBR:

Jacxson is an illustration of

ham a historian can go wrong,

*The Age of Jackson8* shows

I ean f t think of anything

that more assiduously develops the wrong themes.
CHAIRMAN SPROUL: We say here, gentlemen,
there are few men that have these two facets. Is there
some way other than throwing out names at a meeting such
as this that we can go over the whole field of men who
might be considered for this, and t$@e if we make
selections?

• ': • •

JBt. KI3FLEIU

. •••••.•^ '.

You are thinking of an organised

approach.?

For

CHAIRMAM SPEGULt Yes.
identification, see Appendix.

112
DR. GEANDLLRj

It does seem to me, Mr. Sprou]

that whaterer form of organisation you eat up would hart
to have some sort of preconceptions at to what would be
jour first ©hole© as to type of person, for example, if
it were decided that this man must be pretty expert in
financial affairs, then perhaps your organisation should
be set up to utilise the people who really know the peopl
in that field.
O B the other hi&t* if you thought that some
economic historian who was not «n expert In the finance
field might do it, then perhaps the organisation should
be broader and should be aimed more at utilizing the knowledge of personnel, of people in that line.
ME* E iEFLERt

I think the discussion today

has lifted the topical approach to the same level of
importance as the chronological history approach, and
depending on this double approach to pull the essence
out of the material©. Certainly on the topical approach
we are going to look for people who thoroughly understand
the topic. I would think that on the other one I would
be inclined to go along with Cyril. «e ought to start
with a trained historian, try to find his in the trained
historian with a grasp of finance*

1F7
CHAIHMAI SPRQtfLt

A trained historian but

with a grasp of finance?
K U B IE .FLiEi

0k$ thoroughly* because on the

topieal we ar® planning on just the other approach*
Thera we are going to get the trained specialist, the
expert*
CEAIRMAH SPEOULs
U

Walter, jou are an eoanoia-

historian. What do jou think of this?
mU

STFiAEfs

I am pussle<i9 I must say.

Eistorians I havt talktl with, even if they art economic
historians, whether they ©an gat deep enough into the
marrow of their bones what the nature of this institution
i$9 1 just doa f t know #

they don't in the ordinary run

of economic history deal with monetary Institutions in
this torm*
Spragu# was a historian "before he was an
economiit.

Old Dunbar*wa» m newspaper writer before ha

waa a professor*

White was a aevepaperaan*

Among the

present people I don't know how to go about it, honestly*
DR* JAMES:

I wonder if the staplest thing

wouldn't he to look over the recent periodical literature
and see w h o seems to be writing most effectively,
are a lot of people writing on financial historical

For identification, see Appendix.

there

,;:: •;;•••;

. '"•

subjects.
'WKkyftffft ^ « name kind of flashes —
Hamilton*
S p a i n *

I have seen some of his work on the bank of
"

"-'''V-

fi&« JAMESi

"?••

"• ••'

' ; '

••••

He has a financial mind and a

great knowledge of finaael&l theory.
« • STEWART* He does*
: • ..

WtU'

JfAMSi

He also knows how to imndl® U f

torical data,

,
iBU BOPPi

fast quantities of i t * As I «ay,

the name just occurs, and I know nothing moro about i t
•xoept that I hare read some of his material*
MU CHAKDLER: X think he would be generally
considered to to one of the rery best of the economic his »
torlans f just in general, and unquestionably the best
in this country who has concentrated on financial and
monetary matters^
Uli BURGESSs low old i s he? ^
•Vyx--;- .:•;. ".fUji.-jrAllESt
•,. ; : > : C '

•'

'^fe^WWfISSi

M t OAMESs
rf

I would think about S7#"-V

jpSi BOPPt

Il^rt

•'..:••;•,'•••.':',:."

Duk«#
Bo9 ht i s i n Sorthwest«rn f Chiatg

* For identification, see Appendix.

i s h#?

ua
MR, STEWARTt
in jour friend Mr. Law.
DR. JAMESs
•.-••:-;

m. Bmassst

And has an especial Interest
Yes*
Md'ht do something on Mr* taw

That is a very good preparation*
IK* STEWARTt And has a lightness of touch.
there is aozae imagination ia him. 1 think he would get
It up off the ground*
MR. BUROESSs that sounds more hopeful than
any noise I have heard yet*
"

I think he Is the kind of per*
son who would learn the kind of technical thing that he

•

MR. STWABTs

needs to learn* this would be aninterest in finanoe
rather than a knowledge of It,
JfiU BQRftSSSt
lead his things?

Tou know M m t Walter! You hairi
r

him pretty well* He
has heen active with the economic History Committee, He

•.•••..,..••':."

writes well*

ME* STIfAETt

1 tawiw

' : \ ;h /•••' , "

CHAiaMU SPBOOLt You got this flash through
ka^lng read some of M i papiFif

ME. BOPFj les*
CHAIEMM

SPEOULJ

I suggtit that Dr. Janes9
'

•

•?

suggestion of looking through the literature and finding
who seems to have this flair has some advantages*
MR* -STWARTi

I ha?e tried reading the liter*

ature, I honestly have, and with great hop* at the tl*»
I began.
MR. BURGESS t Shep UfcP* Clought
MR#
that he hasn't

SXWARIJ

fher? may be those who fetl

romd#4 *«ffUi«aU7, ^^t 1 think tfcat

among the run of eoonomie hiftoriana he alto has points
to him*
SR. Wff^ESSs

Mutual Life, whleh was a pretty good job.
ME. STEBARtt

Iesf he is a little »ore the

promoter type*
BR. JAMES: He ie mt ft^arly as well grounded
ME. STEWART: Ho # not nearly as well. I am
a little doubtful a.n to whether he has editorial capacity,
as this plan suggests, as Hamilton would hare* •>
M. BUEGESSi

Does anybody know Tom

He is a tery decent fellow with a good deal of ability.
I donft knew whether he has the quality to do this or not
m. WQQBMAWi

Clough. I nay say, had no

acquaintance with life insurance at all when he was com* For identification, see Appendix,

lf-ll

117

missioned to do this job, I was responsible for getting
him to do it, after some searoiu

He ease inf and within

1 thought a surprisingly short period of time* had a
fairly considerable mastery of the subject. He did show
a oapaeity to talarge on something that he started on
with little familiarity,
DR. JAMES;

I cose back to Miss Adams1 point,

While a well cjualified man, I xaeen men with a general
approach, could easily write a history of this* unless
he starts with an Inquiring mind well grounded ia flaaaeial and monetary theory, he is aot going to ask <juestioni
that opea up great new territory* or to draw the effect
and morals that we hate beta talking about*
BS»

OIAHBLERJ

I have known Clough for some

period and have a high respest for ids iatelligeaoe, but
2 thought I detected there some sense of Impatience and
some laok of desire to do the kind of basic digging job
that would be require* i s w .

It seems to me that he

would be at his best on a more limited project, or on
one where you could draw the maximum of Interpretation
from I won't say a minimum of digging but an attempt to
minimise the digging relative to the final output,
frankly.

Hi
IB* ICXMMAHDt I think that ii fair, Mr ing
worked with him for seme period of timu I think that it
a fair statement*
ME, SfKIlBf: Certainly compare* with the
economist who has mo training in the handling of document)
would would simply be aaowed under by this job there le
a great deal to be said for the historian. In either
ease you've got a deficiency, The historian doesnvt know
the technical facts about money and banking*
MR. iOOMARDi i hare pondered several t i m e
in Ike discussion whether that could be oured by a team*
If one had one of eaoh I could imagine a collaborative
project, then one could have a possibility of suriag the
tefioienoy*
M* GHAHDLEHt There is another type of per*
eon who might conceivably do this type of thingt who
would meet some of faltt**s requirements of experlenee in
dealing with basio documents, and that is the kind of an
economist who has been more Interested la institutional
and historical development such as the economist who mates
industry studies,
'
BE, JAMESi You mean people like Gras?*
DR. GHAHDLERi Yes. Edward Mason would be am
* For identification, see Appendix.

at
©xaaple of a man who la able to handle lots
baale materials and still generalise and still gat a
fence of history and of sooial perspective out of it*
I oaa't name any parfcioular person who I
think would be excellent for %U*0 tatt this kind of ptrso
would b® liksly to know more about the finaneial prooesse
than would moat of the economic historian**
BE, JAMSt fht best of his that I have rtal
dtftwiftlYft but not Ttry doaply probing. I think the
significant thing about this U somebody wh3 asks the
right questions, as Miss Aiams said# fhat rs&lly is tht
beginaing of wisdom in this sort of a stu&j*
I wonder If it wouldn't be a good idea to
ask Hamilton, i don't know whether Hamilton would take
it on# He's got a terrifio amount of ^inplowtd stuff on
his study of the sixteenth century monetary policy, and
1 suspeot that he might want to continue there. But I
wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to have Don write to
him and aak his adviet about what people there art* it
least he has a rery critieal mind and know* the situation.
It might get som© othsr suggestions from him, and it
doesn't prtTtnt us later from going back and asking if
he would do it himself, v;

180
MR, WOODWARD?

I would be glad to. I don't

know him* Walter, you do. Perhaps you and 1 might talk
about it, if that would be your pleasure, Mr, Chairman.
MR, STUARTJ ihere are the American History
pecplt meeting this year?
• BE, JAMES;

Detroit,

STEWART:

talking fao@ to face is always

BURGESS?

There suglit to be some choice

better.

morsel here that he would be interested In*
CBAZRXAS SPRGSJLi

I have sen* reservation in

approaching a possible man we would like for the job as
an adviser, as to who else we can get for the job. We
have done some of that already and that always puts us
in the position of being told of some other people whc
might do the job, and making up reasons why they can't
4o it or won't do it*
ME, STEWART: Xou know the wonderful answer
that F,D,IU gave to Julian Boyd when r,D,R. wanted hla
fcr the archives library. He brought him a list of four
aea t each of whom could do the job better than Boyd could.
f.D.R, said, nY*ry interesting! «how them to President
Dodds,*

. . .

•

•-

"'•

•

. .

•

{

121
I think it would take a real dislocation to
gat Kaailtoxu

I am rather inclined to agree with Allen

that if one makes up on* 9 ? mind, one had better m k e the
direct approach.

I think w® would be at a sound place

than. le would disavow any knowledge of modern finance
or modem history* and I think he will say no to start
with*

Ana it means also giving up his chosen field.

But 1 am not sure he might not be persuaded,
DR, JAMES:

This is a more interesting field

as far as getting an audience goes, and there are more
facts available too*
MR* STMARf 1 fhat sometimes is a disadvantage.
CUAIRlfiH

SPROULJ

If we think w@ are in a

position to say that Hamilton in our opinion etal&'&fe"
this §ob9 I would be for going after Hamilton.

If we

donft think wi are in that position yetf then hm do we
go about getting sosa© other nases to be considere&# compared with Hamilton, and a choice made?
USS: -IDAMSt

This is only & bright y o H §

historian who lias now ftfawMm himself a J 0 K

I was think-

ing of 4cGeorge Bundy$ who did suoh a good job on Stimson.
I donft know a^ftMjig about his to^iiaiie twMikground. I
* For identification, see Appendix.

V-16 '

122
would assume he probably didn't have very much. But that
is a young and e&ergetia person, Wt t d haft to pry him
out of Harvard, and I don't know that he could do it, but
I»
^,-

i# is a person who e&n write, who has judgment, a.&a who
ean do interpretive things, who understands, who goes
further tkan just a straight relation of a string of
beads*
MR. BU;:GESS; He has been made dean of
faculty, hasn't he?
MISS ADAilSj Bean of msnj something of that

sort^
BE« JAMSs

I would rather tak* * f m *•«!»

to look baok over tht llttrature of the past four or fiva
years and see what naaee oiaerge from it*

I don't think

If jou would be willing to do

* • •

that, I think the conaittee would benefit greatly.
BE* JJJBSt

I'll do my best#

I would be

glad if somebody else would do it too beoause two min&z
ere better than one.
MISS ADJUBt

Hiie have coapiled ia the offiee

a surprisingly large file of people who have been suggest

123
ed at various times and by various individuals. Hone of
the® has clicked as the person that we wanted to recommend without any doubt. «itl*** they didn't h a w taffieconomic knowledge or they didnft have any histori,

dull as ditch water.

eal training, or they ware ss&kimxiftJs^^
As we
know, those things come in. ie have a great dtal of
material which say not have b^n sufficiently plumbed.
ME. BURGESS J Allen, I think we might throw
om the table a name you and I suggest, and see what the
people know about him. that is Brooke Willis, who did
the Federal Reserve job for the Sew York Clearing House,
and did it extremely well*
He teaches at Columbia. I don't know what
historical experience ha has had. Be would h a w , I think
a leep interest because of the fact that his father was
the Parker Willis who was one of the —
)0L STUART: He worked down at the Federal
Reserve for a time, didn't he?
He worked for me in London.
He is a first class researcher. He dots clean work. In
terns of hard work and working relationships and ol@an
work he is tops*
*

.' : .

.'•';.•

'.•

•

^--::.;

•

;

•'

•

- i

.-.

•:'•'•

1 2 4 '

MR* BURGESS: H® displayad tha $ualitiea of
4 salat l a doing this report beoauaa 1M worked for &
iftXiittte of clearing house banks and tried to satisfy
them ta& yai turn out & job that ma prttty good*

lad

I tktoJc fci^t » » a good* ttaAable job*
I talktd about him with All«a f#aple # niio
worked wito ld» a* auah a« anybodr did # and h* tkought
Ika tm#«tloa 1 doa f t kaow tha answer

Tory Mghlr of hla,

to la wkathar he J*aa doaa hlstorioal work*
to know, Cyril?
•;;/.-'V-

•-•••• :\ • ; ; t i

Do you happaa

,
#

J U B S I

fio#

I d o m H

" ;.. -^v- ,- ; -, CMIRMAI SPROULi

k u w t

'••••'.. ; V . .

A» I said to youf I fcava

toomglit of him not';#:';:li*'"'MJi for this ultimata job but
as a man who might coma ia and work with Miaa Adaas i f
sad wlum *&a faals sha m u i i l a y dowa tha burdaai that ha
c o u l d

p i ok

tu j » '.:^K--.r:\.'-:

MSS iBJJB!
papers

i no r d e r ,

;Iv':v::;;:;.

•••.•• ..-••

1 wlah ha would gat his fathar 1

:•,,-••:.\-^ y ••; *• *

/ C1AI1MAU SFEOULi

that ia Ilia T i l o i t ^ ,

another brother, Bo»toa Raatrra Bank ViUla*
'

P^^IORGISSi

l i a brother works for you!

GMIEM4I SPROULi

Arthur works for us#

fomag Farkar works for th# Bostoa baak, aad Srookt i s at

¥•19

•;

•.

••••.

1 2 b

Columbia and at Chase.
In tin* past we have asked the members of the
committee to think about this but sort of casually and
if you have time.
Pr*

We have suggested that we might have

JaMs look into i t * out nay not tM other members of

Ike eoflsaitctt ioa # and not aid/ oaybe aaa i f they think
about i t but within the next lao&th to do aoae eaavasslag
\

of the f i e l d to the extent that they *&&, and way tfty

vAiy oanf a&S to aake sos&e further suggestions^ •
•

.;./ .;

•

• MR. umsmm:

Qo you ftpplj tttt ta l»a«i

««Eaittoos thut are 1A tills rooa?
.;' .
'

•

•
:

•

;

•

c a i i u u SPBQULI
•

•

;

•

-."' "—'• • •" • ' ]R« Wtft

•

Z M «

. : -'•.,.-.

•

• '

•

By Inspiration we have mtAe &

CHAXJtXir SPSO0L: That i s somethiag you ooul<
v>lf)||^,.aka)it

•'
:

as well as the general outlines of the study*

•••• D R .

- -

JAMES j

J a o o b

T i m A

....

. •-. -

CiiWui^ius SMOUL| 1 think as Dr» Jaiaes said

i a discutsing what they Aid in Canada* we are probably
going to have to take a gamble to some extent.

We mnt

to gamble 43 l i t t l e witk other people's money as possible!
but I think me are going to havs to gamble to a&me extent
between the establishtd reputation and approaching re*

* For identification, see Appendix.

;

y-20

; ;

;;:

;

•

••••••

\ u

t l w a o a t and early enthusiasm, and our guess or our
estimate as to wliat a youage*, more active mam oaa do.
That w i i l be soaetfclag or a gamble la trying

to find

this ooabiaatloa of historian and eeoaoalst*
-,:;:":"'•• J"' -• MR* Sfgfctftf:

•

IwigiaatiQa for i t
•:" :-'"y--'

louag Fetter*doesa't have am

doea liaf

•••••"•• . ' 8 R V C E 4 1 I - L E E :

•

• v •••••

•

1 know h i m , l a l t « r

d<mft know U s work wall eaoogh*

but I

I oortiJUly would not

?iil* him mt.
/ «R. SflBUXtx

He has written in tk« fi«ld #

Pt t WOODi Frank Is In England this yaar*
Bo i$ working on that mattrial*

I bad a l e t t a r from him

not long ago and ha said he hoped something would $om«
out of I t la tk& waj #f a h i i t o i y ol tfet b a l i n g toatro*
v

•••••

•

•••'.""

••"•.••.•; : ,'-••• ."•••R* B O S G S S S t
,,.

•,. • •

•'••• -'-|MU WOOD!

•;,

;

BOFPi

I t h i m k ho l i

reftrriag

-,•:.,.-•' ' . ;• ";:IR* STEWART:

•

*"• \ >

. ;v:-lBl. wO;)«IM»:

'* For identification, see Appendix.

•'" ''
to

tlit

-'-->-• ••

I t h i n k he j u s t b r o u g h t o u t

o & i t l o n o f s m r t p o r t , I r i s h report. t f "

inspiration*.

••...

Which oontroTorejr?

p o r l o d around t h e t h i r t i e s and f o r t i e s *
:-, :/.- - ,- - • •'••••' •mm

• • • • .

:-• ^;J^-'V;

Wa a r t g e t t i n g a l o n g w i t h
v

' ' •

•'

':'"'''•''

I hare raised the yiostion

'^V;-

;

••••

. ..

1 2 7

of the possibility of getting Galantiere* who oan write,
and perhaps he oan team up with aoaeone who is perhaps
in the System* the quality of the writing there would,
of tomrte,fcesplendid, and there Is more than a little
understanding of the System*
.,
- .. ' ' : ; - ' '
I think perhaps with this possibility of
aTailability, ia as much as he is free lancing at the
present time, it woul4 not be a question of dialo&gement*
;;-'.;•:: . -. jp # SflfART: He would do an absolutely
exquisite Job on these group biographiss*

He would hare

real depth of understanding and great power to write.
And I agree that he lived in the Systtmf and while he was
not always a part of It in the sense of complete identic
fio&tion, back of that he also knew something about
Congress*-* v

•

-r \ j i

. •

' •

• ..'••'.••

:
.:. /;
CE&tBIUir S P E O U L I I think that the danger
would be that he would :jL§ m ex^taisitt piece of writing
whleh would lead its an! the public astray by its
brillianoe,

,;,,...:.:/

•
. '

•

•'

\. \ '^"•"'••';' • ' - ' •

im'-' 'h-- .'

•i

•

" •" ' '
."

' ?

.: .., » • 'VOOMill^i'' I think there would b# that

risk* Is a matter of fact, if he were teamed with food*
lief Thorns, for example, then I think that risk would
bt at least minimised and the good writing might b© pre~
• For

identification, see Appendix.

128
serfe4# I would think some such teaming operation would
be desirable*
. • 1GU STIWA1T«

I d o n U know that I want to

ftgfc Woody at the moment, but I would like to get a consideration from Woody at to his availability, whether of
Eat there is aay chance that he could be drown into this
ami whether or not he Is the man. It haa# after all,
lived with this & long tiae, and I don't know wfeethtr he
would h« available•
- •

;. MS. SUEGESSs

I talked to Bill Martin about

it. Re, of course, qualifier on his scholarship without
oueeticm, le donbta whether oa writiiig he would produce
somethiBg that was readable and Intereitimg. Of course,
he ianft readilj available. I don't think foody has been
greatly interested in it* do jrou?
I haven 1 1 heard but I w

m . HEFLEAi
think he would be •
'• •;• ."•: •
-

•

o f

• ' •:' ^.MOamAmt

•

was,

/ =

•'

•-••"

I had the impression that h o

in J.one oomvuraation I have had with him a oouple
t i m e s *

. : »• '

'•^••>

', "_ . - * r y : :

•.:. .

•;•

' •"•

' '

•:.'...•
••.•• !; MBit* "BTiTRGESSs I t h i a k ' h e w o u l d b e I n t e r e s t e d
In h e l p i n g a l o n g w i t h i t « \ , ^
j , / " • _'.
;.'.( '

i • •

B iifLERi'

•

Bo j m think he would b#

• • & •

V-23
interested in doing a pitta of writing sustained over
flT*

years?

, '•••-;:.•'•-

DR. CHAIDUIRi

;

.:1

••-

Would you bi l ® S s » l by tht

fast that one of the principal authors of this had been
Identified as a fiSI of the Systsrn fdf ran years!
• • •• ''•".•

• •• M i l

:
:
:;:v

;. :•

• . • 'r-Wk.

;

•

XI I E F T W T ? *

STEWART*

• '

Its,

MR. BOR0£SSt

'";..."

••"

.-••:•

;.; J\ •/:- •

He is bound to bs frwta into

CHAIRMH SPRODLt

i hare a sehsdule, as I

understant itf where you and your associates want to meet
again with this committee after a month or eo, Karl, for
•

further digestion?

-M.

...• :*m•••••,.

That was the thought we Had in

BOPPJ

mind initially. Do you see any reason for changing thatf
Lea? We shall get together tomorrow to try to come v$
with some revisions h*r*9 there and yonder; then spend
i M i time on where that leads us*
MR* BOnStSSi

1 think it has been rsry help*

ful to our coaHdtt*et I must say. I wondered a little
what we wire going to do all 4ayf but it has been r**j
i t i m u l a t i n g i r • "" V> /:: ';."' ".
CHAXRHAH SPROULi

•

••'•

•••,

•

•':'"'

•

* > -.< '•.•"*
I was thinking in terms of
•

•

'''•;••

;

•

180
time and mot losing time, that if that Is what we are
going to do, that then to take that same period to get
further suggestions as to men, and when we finally come
together with our more or lees definite and final ideas
as to what the study is to comprise and how it is to be
organised* and make our final attempt at selecting a man
or men to %e approached, we would hare lost mo time* We
will come together at the proper point*
Is that agreeable?
MR, STEWART: Is there any machinery or way
in which one could save time in clearing names prior to
that, a nearby meeting on names? Ire you thinking of the
January meeting?
\-.aiAIHttS SPHOffLt Tee*
MR, STEWART: If there is any way of saving
time on that, one oould get suggestions* turn them over,
or circulate them, or confer, j,
\''-ffe^;r-SOBftESS t Can't we pool them through

Hiss Adams ana have her »^n,^ out any reactions?
v

MJSS ADAMS*

1*11 be glad to do that*

be glad to send out suggestions that come in and go
through our own file card *&d see if something comes
that we haven1t given sufficient attention to.

1*11

-25
MR, BURGESS: Particularly rechecktng these
names we Have had up. Willis hasn't done historical work
Frank Fetter — anything further about his background.
Hamilton •- any opinions we can gel*
MR. SIEWART:

. ., • .

I would almost like to #ee am

executive committee meeting prior to our next meeting
#f the coamittee, In whioh they went over this material
and cane up with a list, and eliminate, and then say
here are three names} we rank them in this fashion. That
would enable us to go forward with the full meeting of
the committee. You will do as much in two weeks as you
will in a month if you get after it,
*V7-/-V

•< Ifc* BURGESSi When you say the executive

•;*•"'••' •;> .

committee you mean you want UB to work?
m* STliAKfi
biiiti^s

seriously.

Exactly#

••••-!,•-•

Take your responsi.

•

.:::.,.-,,,;..•

CMAIRMJJ S?EOOL« What we could to, Don, it
get out a letter, after having determined when the
Executive Connittee emu meet, ta all of these people
asking them to have their surgestioas into Miss M a m s
before the late of that Executive Committee meeting, at
whioh time the £xecutl¥# Committee would do what It can

come up to the later meeting of the full oommlttee

,28

132
with whatever consents any member can give.
MR. BURGESS: You will be in Washingtoa?
CBAXRXU SPROOLi

I will U there on tlt«

serenth of December, and I don't know when else.
ME. BURGESSs Our tt&t up until the seventh
of December can be fairly well occupied.
MR, WOODVARDt ¥*li # H w of flee can attempt
to find a tint wh#n you and Barber can b$ la New York,
MR, BDB6ESS1 W« o&n meet that ©TeElmg, •";••; '
CMXRiai SPriOUL; I maj go home and lie dowaj
DR. CHANDLER: May I aaka the facetious
I M M U t here that for the benefit of future historians
I hope the Federal Etstrve and the Treasury will ktep all
the first, second and third drafts, as well as the final

draft*
CHAiRllS SPROIFLs

Is thep# anythimg else jon

want to bring up at this meeting, Don?
T

• ME, WOODWABDt

Mo*

. CBAIR2IAS SPROUL?

Miss AtauY •

MISS ADAMS: If w@ could have a decision on
this business of the data for the next meeting,
(Discussion at to date*}

CHAIRMAIJ SPEOUL: Then as far as the fmil

?«4?

131
««»ltt#e la concerned, it will mttt on Saturday, Jan*
mary 8th, and the experts can arrange their time around
*****
Bo you have anything else, list Adams?
JOSS ADAMS; No, not unless you want to set
a Sate for the Executive Committee too*
€EAIEMAI SPROULt

Don Woodward is going to

explore that with the members of the Executive Cosimittet
after they look at their calendar.
Is there anything anyone else wants to bring
up while we are h^r^ together?
Thank you all for coming. Thanks particularly to this ad hoc cosamittee which we asked without benefi|t
of glory or future remuneration to come in to kelp us*
le will
(Whereupon, at 3:40 P.M. on November 21.
1954, the meeting was adjournedJ

APPENDIX

•

Outline formulated by Drs* Bopp, Chandler Bnd Wood In all-day
meeting at Princeton, November 20, 1954 &ad presented as the
basis for Goaadttee discusaion on November 21st (see page 6
of text).
I.

GENERAL DESIGN
A, Comprehensive histoxy
B # Source material
1» Annotated bibliography
2* Selected unpublished documents
C # History for the general reader
D* Monographs
X* Bank Supervision
2» Check Clearing m& Collection
| # Fiacal Agency
4» Research and Intelligence
5, Constitutional History
6» Personnel
7# Role in International Finance
8» BenjeB&n Strong Blogrephy
9, Other?

II• ALTERNATIVE APPROACHES OF .THE COHPREHEHSIVE HISfOEI
A, Topical
flov integrate?

B. Chronological
Vhet time periods?
III. COVERAGE
A t What aspects should be covered in all periods?
B. Wh&t aspects are limited &s to tdme?
IV* ALTERNATIVE ORGANIZATIONS FOR COMPREiEHSIVE HIST0E3T
A. Single writer
B. Several writers
- how achieve integration, continuity,
and consistency of eppro&ch?

2.
APPENDIX

ABBOTT, Charles Cortez ( p . 63)* Dean, Graduate School of Business
Administration, University of Virginia. Born in Kansas, 1906.
Authors THE NEW T.ORK BOHB MARKET, 1920-30 (1937); FI&AflCI«G
BUSINESS DURING THE TRANSITION (1946)} MANAGEMENT OF THE FEDERAL DEBT (1946).
;
ANDERSON, Sydney ( p . 99)* Congressmen, member 62nd to 63th Congresses from the 1 s t Minnesota D i s t r i c t * Born in Minnesota,
1881. Chairman, J o i n t Commission of Agricultural Inquiry,
U. S. Congress, 1921-22. Died 1948,
BRAUN, Ted V. ( p . 62): Public r e l a t i o n s expert. Wife Breun end
Company, I n c . , 15 West 48th S t r e e t , flew Xork City.
BtJfiDT, McGeorge ( p . 121): Dean of Harvard College. Co-author
with Henry L. Stimson: OU ACTIVE SERVICE IS PEACE AND WAR
(1943).
CLAPHAM, S i r John Harold (p. 109)* Born 1873. Author* BANK OF
ENGLAND* A HISTOKT, 1694 - 1914 (1945)> ECONOMIC HISTORY OF
MODEM BRITAIN, THE EARLY. RAILWAY AGE, 1820 - I85O (1927)J
and others*
Ci^OOGH, Shep&rd Bancroft ( p . 116) s Professor of h i s t o r y , Columbia.
Bom in Indiana, 1901. Member, Division of Economic Studies f
U. S. Department of S t a t e , 1942-43* Associate e d i t o r , Journal of Eoonoaiio History. 1941-43• Authors A CENTURY OF
AMERICAN LIFE INSURANCE (1946)j end o t h e r s ,
COCHRAN, Thoaas Childs ( p . 116)I Professor of U. S. h i s t o r y , Univ e r s i t y of Pennsylvania. Born in Brooklyn, 1902. Director,
National Bureau of Economic Research, 1949-52. Editor of
New Xork University Business Hjgtory S e r i e s 1945-50. Authors
HISTORY OF CITY OF GREATER NEW YORK (with others)5 THE RAILROAD LEADERS, 1845-1390 (1953)* and o t h e r s .
DAIGER, J . Matt (pp. 93, 95)* Former j o u r n a l i s t . Vice-president
of American Homes in Washington D. C , a company which handles
prefabricated houses. Wrote 7 periodical a r t i c l e s between
1931 and 1933> which a t t r a c t e d Federal Reserve Board a t t e n t i o n . The most quoted was: "Did the Federal Reserve Play
P o l i t i c s ? 0 in Current History of October, 1932.S>p*cuai
DONBAR, Charles Franklin (p, 113)s Professor of p o l i t i c a l econon^-, Harvard, 1871-1900. Born in Massachusetts, 1830. Author: CHAPTERS ON THE THEORY AND HISTORY OF BACKING| CUR* .
RENCI, FINANCE *HD RAHKISG; end o t o e r s . Died 1900.
FETTER, Frank Whitson ( p . 126)J Professor of economics, Northwestern. Born in San Francisco, 1899• Authors FISCAL POLICIES" AMD THE AMERICAN BOOMOMT (with o t h e r s , 1951).
.

GALANTIERE, Lewis (p. 127)t Writer* With Radio Free Europe* Born
in Chicago, 1395. With Federal Reserve Bank of New York,
Foreign Department, 1928-39*
GRAS, Norman Scott Brien (p. 113)* Retired professor of business
history, Harvard* Born in Toronto, 1384.. Founder of Business
Histories Group at Harvard* Author: AN INTRODUCTION TO ECOHOMIC HISTORY (1922)j THE MASSACHUSETTS FIRST NATIONAL BANK
OF BOSTON, 17:34-1934. (1937)| ARE 100 WRITING A BUSINESS HISTORI? (1947); and others*
GREGORY, Sir Theodore £. (p. 110); British member of the Currency
Committee. Bank of Greece, and sometime Financial Adviser to
British Economic Mission to Greece. Born in London, 1890.
Professor and lecturer at London School of Economics, University College, University of London, University of Manchester.
Author: PRESENT POSITION OF BANKING IN AMERICA; THE PRACTICAL HQ8KJNG OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE SYSTEM IN THE U. S.j SELECT STATUTES, DOCUMENTS AND REPORTS RELATING TO BRITISH
BANKING, 1832-1928 (1929); ana many others.
HAMIL'JKM, Earl Jsfferson (p. 114)5 Professor of economics, University of Chicago. Born in Mississippi, 1899* Research in
Spanish, French, Belgian, and Italian archives. Authors THE
riRff? FIFTY IUBB OF THE B A M OF SPAIN (1953}» and others.
Member, Board of Editors, Journal of Economic History. Editor, Journal of Political Economy*
;/
HIDE, Hartford Montgomery (p. H O ) : kavyer and author. Born in
Belfast, 1907. Author* J03S LAW} THE HISTORI OF AU H08EST
ADVENTURER (1943^5 and isany others.
LIPSOU, Ephraiai (p. 109) 1 Reader in Economic History in University of Oxford, 1921-31. Born in England, 1888. Editor of
Economic History Review from its Inception until 1934-* Author: PLAHNED ECONOMY OR FREE ENTERPRISEj THE LESSONS OF .
HISTORI (1945)} GROWTH OF ENGLISH SOCIETY} A SHORT ECONOMIC
HISTOKT, (1950)5 End otaers.
HA80K, Edward Sagendorph (p. 118): Professor of economics and
dean of Graduate School of Public Administration, Harvard.
Born in Iowa, i$99« Deputy to Assistant Secretary of Stste
in charge of economic affairs, 194-5* Economic consul tent V*
Stfcte Department, 194.6-47. c&ief economic adviser at Moscow
Conference, 1947.
O*NEAL, Edward Asbury III (p. 99)• Former President, American
Farm Bureau Federation, Born in Alabama, 1875* Member many
Federal commissions concerning agriculture and the economy.

PATHEAH, Wright (p« 100) t Congressmen, member 71st to 83rd Congresses from the 1st Texas District* Born in Texas, 1393*
Democrat. Chairman, Subcommittee on General Credit Control
and Debt Management under Joint Committee on the Economic
Report, 1952• Presently a member of the Subcouffiiittee on
Economic Stabilisation.
SCHLESISGER, Arthur Meier Jr. (p. lll)i Author end associate professor of history, Harvard. Born in Columbus (Ohio), 1917»
Consultant, Economic Cooperation Administration, 194^. Author: THE AGE OF JACKSON (1945)J and osiers.
SPRAG0E, Oliver Mitcaell Wentworth (p. 113)* Professor of economics, banking $.nd finance, Harvard, 1900 - • Born in
Massachusetts, 1873* Economic adviser, B&nk of England,
1930-33* Assistant to Secretary of the U« S# Treasury, June November, 1933. Author* HISTORI OF CRISES UNDER THE NATIONAL
BANKING SYSTEM (1910)j BAHKUSG REFORM IN THE UNITED STATES
(1911)j THEORY AHD HISTOPX OF BANKING (1929). Died 1953*
STSMQSCH, Sir Henry (p. 32): B o m 1371. Author: ROAD TO
COVERIj VIT3 SPECIAL REFERENCE TO THE PROBLEM OF EXCHANGE
STABIUTI AMD THE RESTORATION OF THE IMTEFiHATIOMAL GOLD
STANDARD (1935)•
»THE A(fc OF UCKoOm

(p. Ill) - See SCHLESIflGER, Arthur Meier Jr.

THOMAS, Voodlief (p. 127)? Iconociic adviser to Board of Governors,
Federal Reserve System. Bora in Texas, 1B97* With Federal
Reserve Bank of flew York, 1930-33* Vita Federal Reserve Board
since 1933> aesist&nt director, Division of Research and Statistics, 1934-35, director, 19-45-49.
VINER, Jacob (p. 125)$ Professor of economics, Frinceton# Born
in Montreal, 1892* Special assistant to Secretary of the
Treasury, parts of 1934, 1939, 1942, Consultant to U# S.
Treasury, 1935*39. Consultant, U# S* Department of State,
1943-52* Authors TfUDE REu^TIOHS BETWEEN FREEMARKET M D
COMTROLLED ICQJfOMX£S (1943)} and others*
WiilTE, Horace (p* 113)? Journalist. Born in Uev Hampshire, 1334*
With Chicago Tribune, 1864-74. With flev York Evening Post,
1383-1903J editor-in-chief when retired in 1903. Chairaan*
Governor Hughes* Committee on Speculation in Securities and
Commodities, 1909. Author* MONEY AND BAKKIflG ILLUSTRATED BY
AMERICAN HISTOKi (1B95)J and others. Died 1916,
Mr. Sproul's reference (p. 52) is probe.bly to THE STUDY OF THE
TRANSFER OF CREDIT Hi RELATION TO THE BANKING SXSTEw by Robert H. Gregory end Herbert Jacobs (1954).

Full text of Committee on the History of the Federal Reserve System : Committee Meeting [Transcript of Proceedings] (Nov. 21, 1954), Entry 164, Box 1, Folder 8

FRASER