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1 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY 2 UNITED STATES MINT 3 CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE 4 5 6 PUBLIC MEETING 7 8 Liaisons for 2020-2021 America the Beautiful Candidate 9 Design Review 10 11 12 United States Mint 13 801 9th Street Northwest 14 Washington, D.C. 20220 15 16 Thursday, September 27, 2018 17 18 19 20 21 22 Reported by: Natalia Thomas, Capital Reporting Company 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 Advisory Committee Members 3 Robert Hoge 4 Erik Jansen 5 Mary Lannin 6 Michael Moran 7 Donald Scarinci 8 Jeanne Stevens-Sollman 9 Dennis Tucker 10 Thomas J. Uram 11 Herman Viola 12 Heidi Wastweet 13 14 Mint Staff Members 15 Betty Birdsong 16 Pam Borer 17 Vanessa Franck 18 Ron Harrigal 19 April Stafford 20 Megan Sullivan 21 Roger Vasquez 22 Greg Weinman 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 3 Liaison 4 Linda Cook, Superintendent 5 Weir Farm National Historic Site 6 7 Other Participants 8 Paul Gilkes 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Coin World Mike Unser CoinNews 1 C O N T E N T S Page 2 3 Welcome and Roll Call 5 4 Approval of Minutes 7 5 2020-2021 America the Beautiful 6 Candidate Design Review 7 Weir Farm National Historic Site 8 8 American Liberty High Relief 9 24K Gold Coin/Silver Medal 37 American Innovation $1 Coin Program 86 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 1 2 3 P R O C E E D I N G S WELCOME AND ROLL CALL MS. LANNIN: Good morning. I'd like to call 4 to order this meeting of the Citizens Advisory -- 5 Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee for Thursday, 6 September 27, 2018. 7 And before we begin, I would like to introduce 8 the members of the committee, and please respond with 9 the word "present". 10 I will start with our two members who are on the phone. Robert Hoge? 11 MR. HOGE: 12 MS. LANNIN: 13 MS. WASTWEET: 14 MS. LANNIN: 15 MR. SCARINCI: 16 MS. LANNIN: Erik Jansen? 17 MR. JANSEN: Present. 18 MS. LANNIN: Jeanne Stevens-Sollman? 19 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 20 MS. LANNIN: 21 MR. MORAN: 22 MS. LANNIN: Present. Heidi Wastweet? Present. Donald Scarinci? Present. Present. Michael Moran? Here. Dennis Tucker? 1 MR. TUCKER: Present. 2 MS. LANNIN: Thomas Uram? 3 MR. URAM: 4 MS. LANNIN: 5 MR. VIOLA: 6 MS. LANNIN: 7 I am obviously here. 8 have today is the discussion of the letter to the 9 secretary and the minutes to the previous meeting. 10 Present. Herman Viola? Present. I am the chair, Mary Lannin, and Okay. The first thing that we Then we are going to review the revised 11 candidate design for the Weir Farm National Historic 12 Site for 2019 for the America the Beautiful quarters 13 program. 14 for the 2019 American Liberty High Relief 24K Gold Coin 15 and Silver Medal, as well as a review of candidate 16 designs for the 2018 American Innovation coin. 17 There will be a review of candidate designs But before we start that, I would also like to 18 welcome members of the Mint who are here. 19 Harrigal. 20 MR. HARRIGAL: 21 MS. LANNIN: 22 Ron Present. Roger, Pam, Vanessa, Megan, Betty, April, Greg, welcome. Are there any people from 1 the press who are here? 2 MR. GILKES: Paul Gilkes, from Coin World. 3 MS. LANNIN: Okay. 4 MR. GILKES: Good morning. 6 MS. LANNIN: What? 7 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 8 MS. LANNIN: 5 9 Any -- I didn't make scallops. He didn't make scallops. Oh, I'm very sorry. Okay. other members from the press besides Paul? 10 Okay. 11 Great. 12 Morning, Paul. Any All right. For the -- and Betty has now walked in. Okay. For the Mint, is there anything that you would 13 like to have on the record now, that you would like to 14 talk about in any of the things that we're going to be 15 speaking about today. 16 17 18 Ron, anything? MR. HARRIGAL: Nothing here. APPROVAL OF MINUTES MS. LANNIN: Okay. All right. The first item 19 on the agenda is the approval of the minutes from our 20 last public meeting. 21 have two sets of minutes. 22 and we've got those from July. Any comments on the document? We We've got those from June No comments? Is there 1 a motion to approve the minutes? 2 MR. JANSEN: Motion to approve. 3 MS. LANNIN: Erik, thank you. 4 second? 5 MR. URAM: 6 MS. LANNIN: 7 Is there a Second. Tom, was that you? Thank you. All those in favor, please signify by saying aye. 8 (Chorus of ayes.) 9 MS. LANNIN: 10 MR. HOGE: 11 MS. LANNIN: Those opposed? Aye. All right. The letters and the 12 minutes are approved. April, may I turn to you for the 13 Weir Farm portfolio? 14 2020-20201 AMERICA THE BEAUTIFUL CANDIDATE DESIGN 15 REVIEW 16 WEIR FARM NATIONAL HISTORIC SITE 17 MS. STAFFORD: Sure. Thank you, Madam Chair. 18 We are going to be reviewing candidate designs for the 19 Weir Farm National Historic Site, American the 20 Beautiful quarter, which is a 2020 quarter. 21 site is in Connecticut. 22 And this Some background on this site, Weir Farm 1 National Historic Site is the finest remaining 2 landscape of American Impressionism and provides a 3 pristine setting where contemporary artists can connect 4 to and paint in the same place that American masters 5 painted at the turn of the 19th century. 6 The park was home to Julien Alden Weir, a 7 leading figure in American art and the development of 8 American Impressionism. 9 artists, the park is a singular crossroads of 10 11 Designed and preserved by creativity, art and nature. Thousands of artists travel to the park every 12 year to be inspired by the rare quality of painter's 13 light at Weir Farm and to paint and draw en plein air 14 in the iconic and exquisite landscape. 15 After the initial portfolio of designs for 16 Weir Farm was presented to the CCAC On June 12th, you 17 requested that designs identified by this committee as 18 well as the CFA and the liaison be revised. 19 this recommendation, we have developed a new portfolio 20 with multiple designs. 21 22 Based on Per the site liaison's request, all designs include the inscription "National Park for the Arts". 1 We're fortunate to have with us the superintendent of 2 Weir Farm National Historic Site, Linda Cook. 3 are you with us? 4 5 6 MS. COOK: Yes. Yes, I am, April. Linda, Good morning. MS. STAFFORD: Good morning. Thank you so 7 much for joining us. 8 designs, would you like to say a few words to the 9 committee? 10 MS. COOK: Before we review the candidate I'd love to. Thank you for the 11 opportunity. 12 be meeting with you again. 13 opportunity to have this second review and the 14 opportunity to have worked with the artists and April 15 and Vanessa to get us to this place. 16 17 18 Good morning, committee. MS. STAFFORD: It's great to And we truly appreciate the Thank you so much. And of course Linda is available if you have any questions. We'll start by looking at the liaison's 19 preference. There's two. The first preference is 6a, 20 you can see on the left. 21 through the candidate designs. 22 preference is 14a, you can see on the right. And I will note it as we move Our liaison's second I will 1 also note that as we move through. We also took these candidate designs to the 2 3 CFA this past Thursday and their recommendation was for 4 design 6a, which is also our site liaison's first 5 preference. 6 Okay. We'll start with design 1. This design 7 features a stone wall in front of Weir House. In the 8 foreground is a French easel with a canvas depicting 9 Weir's studio. Design 4 features an easel with the 10 beginnings of a painting of Julien Alden Weir's studio 11 in front of the studio itself. 12 Design 6 and actually 6a portray and artist 13 painting outside Julien Alden Weir's studio at Weir 14 Farm. 15 and Weir's paintings created on the property, as well 16 as descriptions of Weir and his fellow artists' 17 creative inspiration from the rural environment. 18 design allows the viewer to feel as if he or she is 19 standing where Weir stood. 20 It's inspired by various images of the studio So this is design 6. The And design 6a, the 21 figure is simply wearing a painter's smock. I'll note 22 again that 6a is the superintendent of Weir farm's 1 first preference, our liaison's first preference, and 2 also the CFA's recommendation. 3 Designs 13, 14 and 14a depict a portable easel 4 holding a canvas with the artist's painting of the 5 scene overlaying the actual landscape at Weir Farm. 6 This scene is of Weir House and Weir Studio. 7 canvas and easel are portrayed in greater detail than 8 the rest of the design, underscoring the mission of the 9 site, specifically to create a legacy of artistic 10 The expression. 11 This is design 13, 14, where the canvas is 12 square, and 14a features a slightly upsized canvas. 13 Again, 14a was our liaison's second preference. 14 chair, those are the designs. 15 MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much. Madam I'd like to 16 start with Robert Hoge, if you don’t mind, Robert. 17 What are your thoughts? 18 MR. HOGE: Thank you, Madam Chairman. I think 19 all of these are rather pretty designs and pleasing. 20 It's very hard to decide. 21 house image in number one, but it might be perhaps a 22 bit too busy. I do particularly like the I think I would be satisfied to go with 1 the preferences of the liaison and the CFA for 6a. MS. LANNIN: 2 3 All right. Thank you so much. Heidi, would you like to chime in. 4 MS. WASTWEET: Yes, thanks. I do also like 5 design 6a. 6 composition. 7 towards 14a because I think it'd be a shame to pass up 8 such a creative design. 9 It's a very straightforward, pleasant But I'm going to lean my preference Even though 6a is a perfectly nice design, 10 it's more pedestrian and 14a really does something that 11 we haven't seen done before in a coin. 12 that we should applaud that. 13 14 15 MS. LANNIN: Okay. And I think And that's all. Thank you so much, Heidi. Donald? MR. SCARINCI: I love the word pedestrian for 16 6a because that's just what it is. 17 actually doesn't really work, given the size. 18 I mean, and it When you go look at the -- when you look at 19 the picture of the coin on the full length page that we 20 have that includes the size of the coin, the little 21 tiny painter is like a little tiny painter. 22 just -- it's too busy. And it's You know, the painter's too 1 small. The easel is -- you know, I hate to say it, but 2 the size of a bug. 3 So the easel, you're not going to get the 4 point of it in the quarter -- in the quarter coin. 5 to go with that one would then be a lost opportunity 6 because certainly the more interesting and creative 7 design and the artist who did it should be rewarded for 8 their creativity and we should be sending out a message 9 to the artists that this is the kind of thing we want 10 And to see. 11 And that's 14a. You know, 14a, you know, with 12 a larger -- with a larger canvas, I think that's going 13 to pop. 14 incredible job on it and it's going to look amazing in 15 the proof. 16 coin. 17 You know, I know Ron's going to do an And I just think it'll make kind of a neat And on the three-inch size, it's even going to 18 be -- it's even going to be better. 19 really nice three-incher. 20 fine as on the quarter-sized palette. 21 the best one on the small palette of all of these. 22 It's going to be a But I think it's going to be Certainly it's I think it's actually even better than 01 on 1 the small palette and 01 would work on the small 2 palette and 04 would work on the small palette. 3 think 14a is just a creative design. 4 one I think we should -- that's the one I think we 5 should go with and send the message to the artists. 6 MS. LANNIN: 7 MR. URAM: But I But that's the Thank you, Donald. Tom? Thank you, Madam Chairman. I agree 8 with what's been said. 9 at this last time, I liked this whole concept from when 10 However, I would -- in looking we saw the originals of these. 11 But I kind of lean more towards 14 more than 12 14a because of the depth perception. 13 catching it. 14 the team to see which, 14 or 14a, would strike up best. 15 It's just how I'm And maybe it should be left up to Ron and As Don mentioned, on the five, the larger, 16 certainly the 14a does. 17 size here down on the bottom right, you can see pretty 18 much a difference between if you took both of them. 19 But if you look at your little That canvas is taking up the majority of that 20 space. And I think we're losing a little bit of the 21 depth perception and the value of -- you know, it's a 22 great artistic design. And I just think that it's 1 going to cover a little bit too much, based on that 2 size. 3 But I like 14 because of that. 4 MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Tom. 5 MR. JANSEN: Thank you. So I would leave it up to them about 14 or 14a. Thank you, Madam Chair. Erik? When I look at this 6 set, I really see three classes of designs. 7 first class would be 1 and 4. 8 buildings on coins are akin to a picture in metal. 9 I can't advocate for them. 10 the past. 11 nonplussing designs. 12 And the I personally think And We've used some of them in But I think in general they yield kind of So the second category would be 6 and 6a. And 13 I agree with Donald. These are safe, if not rather 14 boring pictures on metal once again. 15 most creative part of those would be whether you incuse 16 "The National Park for the Arts", which in my mind is a 17 wonderful thing to have on a coin, national park for 18 the arts. 19 justify an artistic design. And about the But I don’t think five pieces of text 20 So that leaves me with the third category that 21 I'm going to advocate and that would be 13, 14 and 14a. 22 And I guess I have a technical question here for Ron. 1 How would you -- and I think I'll just group them all 2 together because the question applies to all equally. How would you frost up various parts of the 3 4 design in a proof rendition? 5 thought, Ron? 6 question. 7 Have you given this any I don’t mean to hit you with a blind MR. HARRIGAL: thing on? 9 typically what you would end up frosting is the field 11 Yeah. What you'd -- is this 8 10 Okay. Yeah. What you can see there, area on this design. The area behind where it says "National Park 12 for the Arts" is going to be the only opportunity to 13 proof polish there. 14 a bit problematic when trying to proof polish. 15 16 Everything else that has relief is MR. JANSEN: Yeah, exactly. That's why I asked the question. 17 MR. HARRIGAL: 18 MR. JANSEN: Yeah. Because, to me, not to do a 19 reverse proof approach here, but if you were to leave 20 in a polished format the entire background and frost 21 only the perimeter of the canvas frame and the 22 structural elements of the easel, that would really 1 make this symbolic of the easel being the pop element 2 in proof. 3 strength of what Heidi used here was the creative -- or 4 made here, the creative inclusion of the easel. 5 And to me, that's the essence of the And obviously in the normal business strike, 6 the relief of the background scene would be very light 7 and the relief, I assume of the canvas frame would be 8 kind of maximum depth on the relief, right? 9 MR. HARRIGAL: 10 correct there, Erik. 11 MR. JANSEN: 12 MR. HARRIGAL: 13 Yes, absolutely. You're Yeah. You do have two levels of relief there. 14 MR. JANSEN: 15 MR. HARRIGAL: Yeah. And then the field. The 16 problem with proof polishing the artwork in the 17 background is you do have very little relief there. 18 MR. JANSEN: 19 MR. HARRIGAL: 20 Yeah. And when you do polish, you lose detail. 21 MR. JANSEN: 22 MR. HARRIGAL: Right. So the concern there would be 1 losing those elements that you'd want to show the depth 2 perception. 3 4 5 MR. JANSEN: Yeah. Yeah. The challenge is managing that dynamic range. MR. HARRIGAL: You will get the contrast if 6 you do something like that. 7 which would make it very challenging. 8 9 MR. JANSEN: But you would lose detail, I were to think if you were to frost the treetops at the 12 o'clock position and the 10 building at the extreme 9 o'clock position and so forth 11 in the proof, that would kind of destroy the popping of 12 the easel and the canvas frame on the proof version. 13 That's just -- I want to put that out there 14 because I would advocate for -- and we've got a -- 15 Madam Chair, we have to talk about this so we don’t get 16 a split vote problem here between 14 and 14a and end up 17 really dividing the real intentions of the committee. 18 I'm going to advocate for 14a on a specific 19 design, merely to line up behind the liaison's 20 preferences because I really think the strength of this 21 design is, quite frankly, in that decision of how and 22 where to frost and, most importantly, not to frost in 1 the background and really lean on the symbolic of the 2 easel and the artwork because I do believe "National 3 Park for the Arts" carries the message here. 4 I wish I could pump up the font size a bit in 5 14a of what is from 9 o'clock to 12 o'clock. I don’t 6 think there's a way to do it without screwing up the 7 layout of the coin. 8 time to refine those designs a little further. 9 my recommendation. I thank the artist that spent the That's Thank you. 10 MS. LANNIN: 11 MR. VIOLA: Thanks so much, Erik. Thank you. Herman? I would have to say I 12 agree that I like 14a also and I think it'd be a very 13 striking coin. 14 to make it look better. And I'd let the experts figure out how 15 MS. LANNIN: All right, Herman. 16 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Jeanne? Thank you, Madam Chair. 17 I'm a little -- I'm a little concerned, although I like 18 14a. 19 get down to putting that canvas together, that that's 20 not going to be too tiny. 21 22 I'm a little concerned about the detail when we Is that going to be difficult to reproduce or strike when we have such a small image in that painting 1 on 14a? 2 MR. HARRIGAL: 3 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 4 MR. HARRIGAL: 5 Directed to me, Ron? Yes. It is a very difficult coin to pull that relief and to get that depth perception. 6 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: My question is -- and 7 I'm going to contradict Erik a little bit here -- is it 8 -- if you have the painting smaller and the background 9 larger, is that a little easier for you to strike or 10 doesn't it matter once you get to this level? 11 12 MR. HARRIGAL: I'm not sure I understand your question. 13 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 14 background behind that painting on 14. 15 talking about frosting, would that be easier? 16 MR. HARRIGAL: 17 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 18 19 Well, we have more So when we're Well -- well -Would that be any easier plan? MR. HARRIGAL: I think 14 would probably 20 execute a little bit better than 14a, only from the 21 perspective that you do have more room to work with for 22 your perspective and your depth on the background 1 elements. 2 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 3 MR. HARRIGAL: 4 5 Okay. That was -- And it does carry through the easel in the painting on both. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes, correct. Yeah. 6 For that reason, I would look at 14 more carefully 7 because I think the painting, although I like the fact 8 that the painting is popped on 14a, I think we're going 9 to be maybe losing the background. 10 11 my vote toward 14. So I'm going to put Sorry, Erik. MR. JANSEN: I don’t take it personally. But 12 I will make a note, we've just been handed the voting 13 scorecard. 14 MS. LANNIN: Yeah. 15 MR. JANSEN: And we've got to do a little -- 16 MS. LANNIN: It's 14a, not 17. 17 MR. JANSEN: Well okay, so we're going to 18 split out 14 and 14a. 19 MS. LANNIN: Mm-hmm. 20 MR. JANSEN: And 6a does not appear on the 21 22 voting scoresheet. MR. WEINMAN: Whoops. Yeah, just -- 1 MS. LANNIN: 2 MR. WEINMAN: 3 MR. JANSEN: 4 MR. WEINMAN: 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 MR. JANSEN: So -Please write that in. Our I think I'm -- the candidate here is complaining about the write-in status of his vote. MS. WASTWEET: I'm sorry? I didn't hear that. Write-in what? MR. JANSEN: The write-in penalty of his vote. I don’t understand what -MS. LANNIN: Heidi, 6a was not -- was eliminated from the scoresheet accidentally. MS. WASTWEET: 15 MS. LANNIN: 16 That's actually 14a. 17 MR. WEINMAN: 18 MS. WASTWEET: 19 MS. LANNIN: 20 MR. WEINMAN: 22 Please write that in, yeah. apology. 14 21 We can write it in. Oh, okay. And number 17 doesn't exist. 14a, yeah. Okay, thanks. Yeah. Please modify your scoresheet accordingly. MS. LANNIN: Yeah. So there's seven -- 1 2 3 there's seven things to vote on. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you, Madam Chair. That's all I had. 4 MS. LANNIN: 5 MR. MORAN: 6 MS. LANNIN: 7 MR. MORAN: 8 MS. LANNIN: 9 MR. MORAN: Okay. Michael? Yes, ma'am. Pick that up. I had an opportunity -Pick that up. I had an opportunity just recently 10 to sit down with a national park superintendent who had 11 gone through this quarter selection process. 12 And I really quizzed her in detail to get the 13 viewpoint from the other side. 14 succinct phrase. 15 amazed how much you can get on the back of a quarter. 16 I about died. 17 And I got it in a very She said, we were told you'd be And obviously we've not learned our lesson 18 because 6 is in the mix. 19 pick that quarter up in change, you won't have a clue 20 what it is. 21 22 It will not show. When you There's too much there. And at the same time, we've got very viable designs at 14 and 14a. I'm going to give them both 1 three and then I'm going to let the committee deal with 2 it. 3 4 MS. LANNIN: All right. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Michael. Dennis? 5 6 Something I want to point out, we've discussed this 7 before publicly, but I think it bears repeating is that 8 the committee discourages dioramas, posed snapshots, 9 montages. 10 And we get away from that nicely with this portfolio, at least on montages. 11 Thirteen, 14 and 14a all get my strongest 12 preference. We were all drawn to the scene within a 13 scene concept in our June 12, 2018 meeting and our 14 artist has gone back to the drawing board and 15 incorporated the revisions. 16 MS. LANNIN: Note unintended. 17 MR. TUCKER: That's right -- incorporated the 18 revisions that we wanted to see and that our liaison 19 thought that would improve the designs as well. 20 are all slightly staged. 21 a dramatic tension that comes with a scene of paused 22 activity. These But to me, they benefit from 1 I'll explain that. We are not shown an artist 2 at work. We don’t have a snapshot of an artist 3 painting en plein air. 4 He or she has stepped away out of our sight or has 5 stepped backward to look at the painting in context. 6 Ideally I think the person who's looking at 7 this coin will look at the scene from 13, 14 and 14a 8 and we become the painter. But we don’t need to see that. When I look at this painting, or when I look 9 10 at this coin, those are my paint tubes. 11 canvas. 12 plein air, as artists do at Weir Farm. 13 That's my And I have painted this beautiful scene en I think that's -- I think that's a strong 14 element that these designs bring to this coin. 15 that any of them would make a beautiful three inch 16 silver coin. 17 I think Will they translate to the smaller one inch 18 quarter dollar size? 19 would not bring them to us if they thought that our 20 world class team at the Mint, our sculptors and our 21 technical team weren't up to the task. 22 I know that our program managers So as Herman said, I think we can leave that 1 challenge up to them because we know that they can do 2 it. 3 14a. My strongest vote coming in was going to be for 4 But Ron, after your comments and some of the 5 comments of the committee, I think I will -- maybe I'll 6 do what Mike said and vote three points for both. 7 I think I'm leaning towards 14 after Ron's 8 recommendation. 9 But So I think that concludes my comments. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Dennis. There's 10 something -- I took like literally the portfolio that 11 we're looking at with the painting within the painting. 12 The one thing that stuck out for me was that 13 number 13 is the only one that actually seems to mimic 14 exactly the scene that's behind it. 15 trees at the top, they meet. 16 If you -- they've got the small house to the 17 left. 18 hiding. 19 eye that we have in these three. 20 If you look at the They've got the large house that the canvas is That's actually I think the best trick of the If you look at 14, which again I appreciate 21 Ron's input into this, that little house that's off at 22 9 o'clock, that appears nowhere in that canvas. And 1 that's sort of a disconnect to me. 2 larger. 3 of number 13. 4 to go, I believe, with 14 because of what Ron said that 5 could be accomplished for all of us. 6 I can live with 14. The trees are I just like the mimicry The liaison prefers 14a. MR. JANSEN: I would tend Erik? I had the same thought. I didn't 7 mention it. 8 going to offer the most interesting use of negative 9 space here because it fundamentally has almost no I actually like 13 in a way that it's 10 negative space and hence my question comes back to 11 could we only frost up the easel and the frame. 12 despite the fearful loss of detail, the background, 13 actually you want to lose that detail. And 14 MS. LANNIN: Yeah. 15 MR. JANSEN: And so, I'm actually voting three 16 Yeah. points for both 13, 14 and 14a, if only to invite -- 17 MS. LANNIN: You're making our life difficult. 18 MR. JANSEN: -- a refined discussion in the 19 wake of staying -- having the group perhaps choose that 20 class and we'll figure the rest out. 21 22 MS. LANNIN: The other -- the other thing that I liked about 13 is that, front and center, you see 1 "National Park for the Arts". 2 MR. JANSEN: Yeah. 3 MS. LANNIN: You don’t have to read that -- 4 MR. JANSEN: Correct. 5 MS. LANNIN: -- curved around. 6 And I think that that would be important to the stakeholder. 7 MR. JANSEN: And your comments brought that 8 subtlety forward to me just in a sudden moment of 9 clarity. 10 MS. LANNIN: Yeah. So -- 11 MR. JANSEN: That -- 12 MS. LANNIN: It's just me looking at literally 13 an artist's snapshot of exactly what's behind. 14 the trees are nice and soft and frosted, all the better 15 in my book. 16 17 MR. JANSEN: comments. 18 Yeah. And if No, so thank you for those I wish I had made them myself. MS. LANNIN: Well, you can borrow them. 20 MR. JANSEN: There you go. 21 MS. LANNIN: Okay. 19 22 How's that? this? Any other discussion on 1 MS. WASTWEET: 2 MS. LANNIN: 3 MS. WASTWEET: This is Heidi. Heidi? Yeah? We've had a discussion in the 4 past where we've come up with a situation where we have 5 two designs that are very, very close and therefore 6 we're in danger of diluting our vote because some of us 7 are leaning one way, some the other, even though we 8 like that set of designs the best. 9 against us. And it can work the 10 So I like the idea -- I can't remember who put 11 it forward -- of giving three points to each 14 and 14a 12 and then we can do a simple vote afterwards to pick 13 which one of the two, something like that. 14 not dilute our vote and then lose it. 15 16 MS. LANNIN: comments? Anybody else have any I see a lot of nodding heads. 17 MR. SCARINCI: 18 Heidi's exactly right. 19 like 14 -- 20 MS. LANNIN: 21 MR. SCARINCI: 22 All right. But let's Don? I think -- I think -- I think I think for those of us who Don, turn your mic on, please. Oh, I'm sorry. For those of us who like either 14 or 14a, I think we should do three 1 votes for each, three votes for 14, three votes for 14a 2 and then -- 3 MS. LANNIN: 4 voting at all, okay? But you're not stacking the 5 MR. SCARINCI: 6 MR. JANSEN: 7 10 And perhaps 13 in the same thought. 8 9 What do you mean? MR. SCARINCI: can vote for others. Oh, well whoever likes others But if you like -- if you like the 14 theme, it's either 14 or 14a. 11 So rather than -- to avoid diluting your vote, 12 you should just give each one three votes. 13 like another one, you like another one. 14 MS. LANNIN: 15 MR. SCARINCI: 16 All right. And if you Any other comments? I don’t know what other one would be. 17 MS. LANNIN: 18 MR. WEINMAN: Okay. So let's begin our voting. And once again, please correct 19 your scoresheets with the actual numbers. 20 and -- well, Heidi, respond to my text. 21 scores either by text or by email. 22 able to do the same? And Heidi Send me your Robert, are you 1 MR. HOGE: 2 MR. WEINMAN: 3 what way? Yeah, I just did. By what means did you send it? 4 MR. HOGE: 5 MR. WEINMAN: 6 You sent it -- how did you -- by Email. Email? Okay. It should be coming in then. 7 MS. LANNIN: You're the delivery guy today? 8 MR. JANSEN: I'm the delivery guy today. 9 I got a promotion. 10 MR. WEINMAN: I think that's the entire table. 11 As soon as their scores come in, I'll give it to you. 12 Do you want to take a quick recess or do you want to -- 13 14 MS. LANNIN: do? 15 16 17 Do you -- what would you like to MR. WEINMAN: schedule. We're a little ahead of So we can probably take a -MS. STAFFORD: I'd love to have Linda Cook, 18 the superintendent of Weir Farm, available for further 19 discussion. 20 It seems like there'll be further committee 21 discussion perhaps about which ones. Maybe her input 22 in the conversation might help drive a decision then. 1 MS. LANNIN: 2 MS. STAFFORD: 3 MS. LANNIN: 4 So maybe just keep going. -- on the phone before we begin talking about the High Relief Liberty. 5 MS. STAFFORD: 6 MS. LANNIN: 7 So we'd like to keep Linda -- important. Yes. Okay. Thank you. Thanks. That is Okay. 8 We're taking a recess? 9 MS. LANNIN: Why don’t we take five minutes 10 while we're tallying up the scores and be back at 11 10:40? 12 (Whereupon, the foregoing went off the record 13 at 10:33 a.m., and went back on the record at 14 10:42 a.m.) 15 MS. LANNIN: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, 16 we are back in session. 17 going to read out the scores so far for Weir Farm. 18 19 MR. WEINMAN: It is now 10:45 and Greg is Okay. With respect to Weir Farm -- 20 MS. LANNIN: 21 MR. WEINMAN: 22 MS. LANNIN: Come on. Donald? Donald? This is the vote. Donald? 1 MR. WEINMAN: 2 received three votes. 3 received four votes. 4 With respect to Weir Farm, one Four received one vote. Six 6a received five votes. Thirteen received 16 votes. Fourteen received 5 29 votes, which is the high, 14a just behind it with 28 6 votes. 7 29 votes and 14a at 28 votes. 8 MS. LANNIN: 9 So the two highest scoring designs were 14 at Okay. Erik, you wanted to say something? 10 MR. JANSEN: 11 FEMALE: 12 MR. JANSEN: I was just going to -- So we don’t have to discuss it. I was just going to offer a 13 thought to the committee inasmuch as 14 and 14a 14 technically show a difference, showing some respect to 15 the liaison's preference of 14a, I would offer a motion 16 to accept 14a as our recommendation. 17 MS. LANNIN: 18 MR. WEINMAN: 19 MS. LANNIN: So moved. 20 MR. JANSEN: Wait a minute, I think we need a 21 22 Okay. So moved. All in favor of -- second -MR. MORAN: Here's a second. 1 MR. JANSEN: -- and discussion -- 2 MS. LANNIN: Second. 3 MR. JANSEN: -- with all due respect. 4 MR. MORAN: 5 MS. LANNIN: 6 MR. WEINMAN: 7 MS. LANNIN: 8 MR. WEINMAN: 9 MS. LANNIN: 10 MR. WEINMAN: 11 MS. LANNIN: It's the drugs. Second. Thank you. Any discussion? All right. Any discussion? Any discussion about this at all? It didn't call for any. Okay. All in favor of Erik's 12 motion to accept what the liaison would like, which is 13 14a, aye, say aye? 14 (Chorus of ayes.) 15 MR. JANSEN: 16 Whoa, I think that was a positive. 17 MR. WEINMAN: Was that an aye? 18 MS. LANNIN: I think that was a positive. 19 MR. TUCKER: Velociraptor. 20 MS. LANNIN: Okay. 21 motion or votes against that? 22 eight to two. Do we have any negative Two? Okay. So it's The motion passes and we will be with 1 14a for Weir Farm. 2 anything, add anything to this discussion before we 3 sign off? 4 And Ms. Cook, would you like to say MS. COOK: Thank you. Yes. One, thank you 5 for allowing me to participate in this. 6 the idea that you spoke to a superintendent about this 7 coin process because it is definitely not within the 8 normal range of what we do every day. 9 I really liked But I want to really thank you for the 10 conversation regarding around the three paintings, you 11 know, the painting on the coins or the painting within 12 a painting. 13 The gentleman who made the comment about the 14 idea that the viewer or the holder of the coin is now 15 the artist I think really rang true with the 16 universality of the park's mission. 17 And as I sat here and looked at this on my 18 screen, I want to take out those paint tubes and put in 19 a paint brush, you know, hanging over the edge of the 20 easel and, you know -- 21 MR. JANSEN: 22 MS. COOK: Brushes don’t hang over edges. -- the comments about bringing the 1 foreground into the -- bringing the background into the 2 foreground and creating those kind of relationships 3 between, you know, in and out and then the "National 4 Park for the Arts", you know, what pops and what 5 doesn't, all that rings true. 6 And I really appreciate the insight and 7 attention you're giving to this. 8 lucky to have you being there to call the fate on how 9 this will be debuted. 10 And we feel very And we're very excited. MS. LANNIN: Well, thank you for attending 11 this session for a second time and we hope that you are 12 pleased with what we have chosen for you. 13 MS. COOK: 14 MS. LANNIN: Yes, very pleased and thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. 15 April, on to you for the 2019 American Liberty High 16 Relief 24K Gold Coin and Silver Medal Program. 17 AMERICAN LIBERTY HIGH RELIEF 24K GOLD COIN/SILVER MEDAL 18 MS. STAFFORD: Yes. Absolutely, and thank 19 you, Ms. Cook, if you're still there. 20 Linda, very much for joining us. 21 22 All right. Thank you, We appreciate it. The 2019 American Liberty High Relief 24K Gold coin and Silver Medal, for 2019, 1 basically building on the success of the programs that 2 came before in 2015 and 2017, the Mint plans to produce 3 in 2019 a high relief 24k gold coin and the 4 accompanying silver medal featuring a modern 5 interpretation of Liberty paired with a modern 6 depiction of an American bald eagle on the reverse. The diameter of the one ounce gold coin will 7 8 be 1.2 inches and the diameter of the now 2.5 ounce 9 silver medal will be approximately two inches. This 10 will be the first time in modern history that the U.S. 11 Mint has produced a silver medal in this size. 12 Based on recommendations from this committee, 13 the design portfolio for this program is comprised of 14 designs previously presented for the 2015 and 2017 15 program. 16 from the original and so will need to be updated on the 17 designs that are ultimately selected for this program. 18 The inscriptions have not yet been altered We'll be showing the coin designs alongside 19 the accompanying medal designs for these. We'll start 20 with the CFA's recommendations from their meeting last 21 Thursday. 22 recommended by the CFA and design six for the reverse. You'll see design 10 for the obverse was 1 And I'll note that as we move through the candidate 2 designs. 3 All right. We'll start with observe one 4 depicts a simple profile of Liberty. 5 presents Liberty looking confidently to the future 6 while holding an olive branch and a torch. 7 Obverse two Three shows Liberty in profile accompanied by 8 symbols of prosperity, specifically grapes representing 9 prosperity, oak leaves representing strength and an 10 olive branch for peace. 11 of happiness and represented by the three flickers of 12 the flame. 13 century symbol of a free, modern society's success in 14 the background. 15 Life, liberty and the pursuit The artist included skyscrapers as a 21st Four presents Liberty dressed in armor with 16 additional elements inspired by Thomas Crawford's 17 Statute of Freedom which stands upon the dome of the 18 U.S. Capitol. 19 she holds a sword, wreath and shield. 20 A shawl hangs over her shoulder while Five depicts Liberty holding a torch and an 21 oak branch. In the background, the rising sun 22 symbolizes the beginning of a new era. We should note 1 that this design does bear some similarity to the 2 design that was ultimately struck on the 2016 American 3 Eagle platinum proof coin. 4 Six depicts a close-up view of Liberty. 5 features Liberty wearing a Phrygian cap and a gown 6 adorned with starts. 7 her left hand. 8 freeing the symbolic bird to spread peace. 9 hand, she holds a torch. 10 Seven She holds the American flag in Eight shows Liberty releasing a dove, In her left Nine depicts a close-up view of Liberty as she 11 looks toward the future. 12 rays of light symbolizing the free and creative spirit 13 of America's people emanating along a headdress. 14 Again, this was the CFA's recommendation for the 15 obverse for this coin and medal. 16 Ten features Liberty with 13 On to the reverses, reverse one depicts an 17 eagle clutching an olive branch and a bundle of arrows. 18 Two features an eagle carrying an olive branch and an 19 oak branch. 20 with three types of oak leaves representing the east, 21 middle and west of the United States. 22 Three depicts a close-up view of an eagle Four depicts a profile view of an eagle. Five 1 places the viewer below an eagle in flight, catching a 2 glimpse of an olive branch in its clutches. 3 depicts an eagle as it prepares to land. 4 Six Again, this is the CFA's recommended reverse 5 for this coin and medal program and I should note they 6 particularly noted that they liked how the eagle's 7 feathers in this design echoed that of the headdress on 8 the obverse of Liberty. 9 Reverse seven shows a close-up view of an 10 eagle, emphasizing its powerful form. 11 and nine feature an eagle in flight while rays of light 12 rise from behind a mountain range. 13 appear as 13 stripes, complimenting the 13 stars 14 displayed. 15 And finally, reverse 10 presents a close-up view of an eagle. 17 designs, Madam Chair. 19 20 In eight, the rays This is eight and nine. 16 18 Reverses eight That concludes the candidate MS. LANNIN: Thank you very much, April. Robert, would you like to start, please? MR. HOGE: Okay. Thank you. I thought this 21 is really a very handsome group of pieces and I'm glad 22 that we've revised them from our previous reviews of 1 2015 and the 2017 1792 designs. I was struck by a number of points on several 2 3 of these. 4 the Liberty from the Capitol. 5 of a severe image. 6 image looks so much like the French Marianne, just with 7 stars added. 8 9 It's just a little bit Number seven, the Phrygian cap Who knows? Number 10 I think is kind of different looking. But the ear looks sort of off on it for me. MS. LANNIN: 10 11 I probably would not go with number four, What? Could you repeat what you said about number 10? MR. HOGE: 12 I'm jumping around. I just thought 13 -- I'm sorry. 14 Number -- I'll actually go back and mention number one 15 I think is an attractive head. 16 a little bit sort of, oh, too modest for the size of a 17 medal. 18 I'm jumping around here a little bit. But perhaps it would be I felt these things were really quite nice. 19 But I thought that number eight was especially 20 attractive. 21 releasing the dove and the forward-looking aspect of 22 it. I like the look of the idea of they're It's very traditional looking. But at least the 1 hair is somewhat modern. 2 really with any of these things though because I think 3 we have a very attractive group here. 4 I wouldn't be too unhappy One point I might mention though for number 5 six is that something is the matter with the ear on 6 Liberty's -- sort of her left ear, the side of her 7 head. 8 Thank you. 9 10 Anyhow, that does it for the time being for me. MS. LANNIN: about the reverses as long as you're with us? 11 MR. HOGE: 12 MS. LANNIN: 13 14 15 Robert, would you like to talk Actually no, but -Oh, well then all right. come back to you. MR. HOGE: No. Let somebody else talk about the obverses. 16 MS. LANNIN: 17 MR. HOGE: 18 MS. LANNIN: 19 MR. WEINMAN: 20 I'll Okay. Heidi? Or are we doing them all at once? All right. Heidi? I think we're going to do them all at once. 21 MS. LANNIN: 22 MS. WASTWEET: Okay. We've kind of talked about 1 these before and I don’t have anything particular to 2 add. 3 nine I think is the most creative and well-drawn. 4 yeah, I don’t have any other huge comments to add. MS. LANNIN: 5 6 But Heidi, do you want to talk about the obverses? MS. WASTWEET: 7 8 On the reverse, I'm still leaning toward reverse I don’t have any particular comments to make, no. MS. LANNIN: 9 Okay. MR. SCARINCI: 10 Donald? This is -- honestly, I think 11 this is a very easy one. I think the CFA got this 12 right. 13 cool coin design, if we can make the -- you know, let 14 me rephrase that. You know, and I think this will be a very, very 15 I think this will be a very, very cool coin 16 design when Ron and his people make the reverse flow 17 into the obverse. 18 That's what makes this a piece of art as opposed to 19 just, you know, a two-dimensional coin. That's the trick to this coin. 20 This is exactly the kind of piece that I've 21 been talking about where the obverse and the reverse 22 and cohesive. There's a flow to the obverse from the 1 reverse. 2 two-dimensional object. 3 pairing -- this pairing is the example of that. 4 The coin is a three-dimensional object, not a This is the example of a And whether it was designed by the same person 5 or not, the art of it is going to be -- is going to be 6 thrown over, you know, to the sculpt and to the 7 production of it 8 and the reverse -- you know, these lines flow. 9 because you want to make the obverse That's the genius of this. So I think -- I 10 think to me this is an easy discussion. 11 a no-brainer. 12 This is really I do want to say a few things about some of 13 the others. 14 program and what I don’t think we're looking for in a 15 constructive way for the future. 16 I do want to talk a little bit about this This program, if you remember -- and I think 17 all of us agree that what we're hoping to do with this 18 is to create -- is to allow the artists to express 19 their creativity to come up with 21st century designs 20 of Liberty, Liberty in new and meaningful ways, 21 meaningful ways to the 21st century, not hearkening 22 back to history. 1 So I think in the wrong -- you know, in the 2 wrong spirit of this program, you know, something like 3 4c, it's just wrong. 4 -- that image hearkens back, you know, but it doesn't 5 mean anything to someone living in the 21st century. 6 You know, I mean, that's nice to You know, maybe in the Civil War era, you 7 know, or maybe in World War I, you know, I mean maybe 8 that'd be a coin that might mean something. You know, regardless of whether I like it or 9 10 not, I don’t even want to comment on whether I like it 11 or not. 12 try to make them understand what they're trying -- what 13 we want them to try to do here, right? I want to be constructive to the artists to This is not what we want them to try to do. 14 15 This is -- we want them -- this is what we're escaping, 16 right? 17 Phrygian cap, like let's go to any school in America 18 and ask a kid what a Phrygian cap is, right? 19 look at you like you're from Mars, right? 20 Same thing with 7 -- you know, with 7c. A They'll So meaningful, you know, in the 18th century, 21 absolutely. 22 maybe, right? In the early 19th century, you know, But today, absolutely not. So let's 1 forget about the Phrygian cap. You know, and then, you know, some of the 2 3 other designs, you know, those are the two I want to 4 highlight specifically as, you know, whether they're 5 nice or not, it's not what we're looking for in this 6 program and not something I really want to see again in 7 the future. 8 9 So in the future, what I want to see are images -- you know, images like this one. And look, 10 you know, six -- you know, six -- for the artist who 11 did six, you're in the right -- you're in the right 12 church, you know, with six. 13 right. 14 You know, your thinking is For the artist who did three, except for all 15 the fruit and stuff, you know, I mean, there's Liberty 16 today. 17 in a way that anyone could identify. 18 I mean, there's a modern woman, I mean, dressed You know, we're not -- you know, we're not 19 floating in space with these flowing gowns like in 5c, 20 which has this Art Nouveau -- you know, that's really 21 nice Art Nouveau. 22 But it's not the 21st century. So I think as we move forward, you know, let's 1 see more images that people can identify with. 2 just wanted to comment on that. And I But I think -- I think we -- I think we've got 3 4 it here and I think the CFA is absolutely right and 5 here challenge is really going to be to make the 6 obverse and the reverse flow. 7 is going to be a great piece of art versus not. 8 9 MS. LANNIN: That's really where this Ron? Ron, you wanted to make a comment? 10 MR. HARRIGAL: I'd like to respond on 11 that comment. 12 and we had discussions with the entire team on this 13 design concept. 14 Yeah. Yes. We definitely are looking at it The one thing I would like to remind the 15 committee is that this is a medal and a coin. So it's 16 going to have a different orientation on it, obverse to 17 reverse. 18 your recommendations. So just keep that in mind when you're making 19 MS. LANNIN: 20 MR. SCARINCI: Thank you. Thank you. Well, we -- well, we can't. 21 When we make this as a medal. You know, in fact, when 22 you make it as a medal, what you're going to want to do 1 if you can -- I mean, I know you can. 2 you can't. So I won't say 3 But you can take these lines over the edge and 4 use the edge when you make it as a medal because you're 5 not encumbered by not doing that. 6 can go -- 7 MR. JANSEN: 8 MR. SCARINCI: 9 There's no magic. You can go -- you The word is bleed. You can wrap it around. There's no rule that says medal turn 10 has to be -- you know, medal turn and coin turn, if 11 it's a coin -- there's no rule. 12 You can break the rules. That's the idea of 13 medals. You always break the rules with medals, 14 always. And in fact, break -- the more you break the 15 rules, the more -- the better it is and the more 16 excited I get. 17 MS. LANNIN: Excuse me. Robert, whoever's on 18 the phone, could you mute your phone please? 19 you. 20 Thank Donald, I'm sorry. MR. SCARINCI: So I'd just make the point when 21 you do this as a medal, the art of this is those lines 22 connecting the obverse and the reverse. That's what 1 you want to capture even more in the medal. 2 you can capture it in the coin. 3 I'll give you credit. 4 is easy. 5 MR. WEINMAN: 6 the phone that is -- 7 MS. LANNIN: 8 MR. WEINMAN: 9 10 I mean, But that's harder. That's a lot harder. The medal Once again, there's somebody on It might be the connection. It may be. If everybody on the phone could just ensure that you're on mute, I think that'll solve the problem. 11 MS. LANNIN: 12 MR. URAM: Oh, interesting. Tom? Thank you, Madam Chair. And just 13 keeping with the same theme that has been mentioned, 14 when I look at these portfolios, I kind of take a broad 15 look at the whole designs and then my gut feeling of 16 what I gravitate towards when I'm looking at the whole 17 portfolio. 18 And I instantly look at 10 and six for the 19 reasons that have been mentioned. And if you recall 20 when we did the Boy Scout -- Boy's Town, I guess it 21 was, with the medal with the tree and then turning it 22 over and so forth. This is very much like that and I 1 think when you're looking at these, you know, it 2 translates coin to medal, et cetera. 3 The thing I really like though about this 4 Liberty is it's Liberty in motion. 5 It's flowing. 6 have the rays and then you have the continuation of the 7 rays with the eagle moving as well. 8 9 Look at her hair. You have Liberty moving forward. You So I think of all the designs, this one really struck me as she's looking forward. Everything's 10 looking forward and everything -- when you then turn it 11 over to the reverse, you pick up the eagle in the 12 proper fashion for the coin and the medal. 13 what it is. So that's 14 MS. LANNIN: Okay. 15 MR. URAM: 16 MS. LANNIN: Erik? 17 MR. JANSEN: Overarching comments and then Thank you. 18 I'll go to obverse and reverse secondly. Nobody has 19 mentioned the fact that this program, I assume, 20 continues in the ultra-high relief manufacturing. Ron? 21 MS. LANNIN: High relief. 22 MR. JANSEN: We're optimizing relief in this 1 coin again, right? MR. HARRIGAL: 2 Yes. We are designing for the 3 high relief. 4 than the coin proportionally. 5 the medal and then we'll proportionate it down to the 6 coin. 7 8 MR. JANSEN: So we're designing it to To the best you can, yeah. Yeah, yeah. 9 10 The medal's going to have a higher relief MR. HARRIGAL: Yeah, to the best we can for the medal, yes. 11 MR. JANSEN: Yeah, because I mean with a 12 couple of designs I'm going to recommend, there's a 13 whole lot of asymmetry to metal moves and it's going to 14 make some challenging fill problems for you obverse or 15 reverse. 16 But putting that aside, I think I want to 17 remind the committee in a high relief environment, the 18 background negative space becomes the essence of the 19 punch to making the high relief really hit the eye 20 appeal. 21 22 The second overarching point I want to make -I think the committee -- and Donald touched on some of 1 this, but the committee originally endowed this as the 2 modern liberty program, modern meaning to put aside the 3 Phrygian past and put aside a lot of the Art Nouveau 4 flowy and otherwise graphic lines that we see in so 5 many classics and really try to extract what in our 6 modern world do we want to endow this art to bring to 7 our mind. 8 9 And so, I'm going to choose some things really focusing on modern. Moving to the obverses, one is It's just -- it 10 simply too simple for a large palette. 11 would be lovely in a small design. 12 I don’t think the crest across the front necessarily 13 looks like it's going to stay on her head. 14 going to dismiss that one. 15 It's very vanilla. So I'm And I'm going to dismiss a number of other 16 designs that just don’t pass the modern muster. 17 three is a montage. 18 there's absolutely no energy in this. 19 through, not at whatever that thing is rising out of 20 her hand. 21 the subtle but absolutely important element of energy. 22 Item The designer, God bless you, but She's looking So I dismiss it as a coin that just lacks Design six, again, I think to quote Donald, 1 which is sometimes a dangerous thing to do, I think the 2 artist is in the right church here. 3 and keeping coming at us with ideas that challenge us. 4 Keep working at it I end up on design number 10. And I'm going 5 to make some specific comments here. 6 issue with the anatomy of the ear. 7 on that. 8 living in a torrent of our pace of change. 9 I do have an I agree with Robert I looked at that design and I saw Liberty The wind that is blowing her hair back not a 10 little bit, but if you've ever been in horizontal rain, 11 you know what wind feels like. 12 hair. 13 artist on this absolutely nailed it. 14 And that's horizontal That is the modern flowing hair design. And the I'm pleased that the CFA concurs with this. 15 In high relief, we've got such an engulfing space, 16 negative space around this that it's going to just -- 17 she is just going to come out in high relief, 18 especially on the medallic version of this, and it's 19 going to knock your socks off. 20 I am hoping in the sculpt we can keep those -- 21 the hair on her brow really high to again accentuate 22 the rate of change that we're facing in society, that 1 2 Liberty is having to stand firm in. It's a subtle thought, but sometimes looking 3 left is looking at the past. 4 at the future. 5 there, assuming that this design is chosen, I'm going 6 to put a motion out there to flip this coin so she's 7 looking to the right. 8 9 Looking right is looking And so, I'm going to put the idea out I don’t think that's going to have a huge impact on the art. I think the stars are 10 transportable. 11 bit of a challenge. 12 headed on this because this hands down is my choice on 13 the obverse for those reasons. 14 The word "liberty" might be a little But that's kind of where I'm Moving to the reverse, I'm going to one-up the 15 comments again. Think relief. Think modern. The 16 choice of number six totally works. 17 actually going to try to call people's attention to 18 design number 10. However, I'm 19 This is a very graphical drawing. I don’t 20 think have we ever featured just this kind of a very 21 tight headshot of an eagle on a coin? 22 historical precedents here? Anybody got any And I like that because 1 this is the modern thing. 2 centrifuge in our society where you can't be the whole 3 bird. 4 We are so spun up as a You're either the head or you're the tail. Now, I'm not going to say what head we have 5 here or what the tail might mean. 6 to the ends in society. 7 anatomically a wonderful rendition. 8 again, we've got the encompassing negative space to 9 pull this up. 10 But we're spun out And I think this is In high relief, God bless you on your medal flow analysis, 11 Ron, if this was a design that was chosen because 12 either the coin flip's going to be easy or the medal 13 flip's going to be the hard one. 14 them is going to be tough. 15 16 17 MR. SCARINCI: I don’t know. One of Not that we're -- not that you're pressuring Ron in any way. MR. JANSEN: Well, Ron will always tell us 18 what's possible and what's not possible. 19 what I appreciate. 20 other designs other than to say I'm not going to -- I 21 wouldn't fight number six. 22 And that's So I'm not going to go through the And I wouldn't fight number eight or nine. 1 That's a very lovely design. 2 a lot of regal nature to it, which is what we should be 3 doing on a high denomination coin. 4 bold move for modern Liberty. 5 MS. LANNIN: 6 It has a lot of -- it has I think 10 is the Thank you. Thanks, Erik. All right. Herman? MR. VIOLA: 7 Thank you, Madam Chair. I have to 8 say I like a lot of these designs. I have to say I 9 also can't improve much on what Don had to say. He 10 seemed to capture it all. 11 talking about this medal looking to the future -- 12 MR. JANSEN: 13 MR. VIOLA: Number nine, when you're Obverse or reverse? I guess it would be the obverse. 14 And if that -- if she's looking at the future and she's 15 as scared as I think a lot of us are, I'm not sure I'd 16 want to see that on a coin. 17 But I would -- I would be happy with the 18 reverse 10. 19 also very happy with the one that the CFA picked. 20 think we're on the right track with this one. 21 you. 22 I think that is very dramatic. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Herman. But I'm So I Thank Jeanne? 1 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you. I'm going to 2 throw a tiny wrench in all of this. Sorry. I agree 3 with Don and the CFA with number 10 obverse and six 4 reverse. However, the anatomy of the ear really is 5 6 torturous to me. And I think if this is chosen, we can 7 just take away her ear and leave the lobe to indicate 8 that there's something there and let the hair flow over 9 it. That would be probably a way to remedy that. But 10 going through all of these obverses, I'm inclined to 11 look at number nine, even though she might be scared. 12 I think this is pretty dynamic. It has -- I 13 think when it's polished up, it's going to be really 14 popping out. 15 complement the crown, we may be able to flip it so that 16 the eagle is going in the other direction. 17 And if we used the reverse six to I don’t know if we can do that here, just to 18 turn that around so that when it's struck, we'd 19 probably have a little bit better medal flow. 20 On the other hand, to look at number 10 on the 21 reverse, if that were used with number nine, it would 22 be simple on both obverse and reverse and I think 1 pretty powerful. So those are my choices. 2 hesitate to go with number 10 obverse. 3 this eagle. 4 different. 5 it shows the same amount of fear. I wouldn't But I do like I have to agree with Erik. It's It's powerful and maybe with number nine, 6 MS. LANNIN: 7 MR. MORAN: Thank you. Thank you, Jeanne. Mike? Ron, I want to get back to 8 something you said a minute ago on how you would 9 approach the relief. In the earlier issues on the gold 10 coin, if I remember right, and we released -- I think 11 we released it in a press release. And I may be missing a decimal. 12 But we define 13 ultra-high relief and high relief as specific 14 measurements. 15 I believe was 0.28 millimeters. 16 MR. HARRIGAL: 17 20 21 22 Is that right? I couldn't tell you right now. I think we were -- 18 19 And the ultra-high -- or the high relief MR. MORAN: I can at home. But I'm not at home. MR. HARRIGAL: Yeah. I don’t have that information with me right now. MR. MORAN: The thing that concerns me is the 1 way you approached it in saying that you would get the 2 relief that you could get from the silver medal at 2.5 3 inch diameter, which is different from what we've 4 gotten before with the 40.6 millimeter diameter of the 5 American silver eagle that we used on the silver medal. 6 And then, we're back to the relief on the gold $100 7 piece. 8 9 I would be disappointed if the relief is -- in doing in that method is less than what we were able to 10 achieve on the first two coins. 11 noted quickly in the numismatic market and we'd be 12 subject to some criticism for it. I caution you on that. 13 I think it would be I don’t want us to do 14 that. 15 $100 gold coin. 16 subcommittee that worked on implementing the Mint's 17 proposal for a gold coin issue. 18 I want us to maintain the high relief on the That was the original concept of the The silver medal was an after -- it wasn't an 19 afterthought, but it was a second step. And if we're 20 working at it from the other direction, and 21 particularly from the wider, larger diameter medal, I 22 think we may end up constricting the relief or not 1 achieving the relief that I certainly personally want 2 on that gold coin. So, now looking at these, I'm going to say -- 3 4 let's look on the obverses. 5 running those, if we could just get them all up there? 6 Okay. 7 it's been mentioned here -- has potential. 8 like a modern girl. 9 And maybe whoever's Looking first at number three, that one -- and It looks It fits the modern scenario. But the artist missed it on two things where I 10 think we might be more favorable to it. 11 on the left-hand side really doesn't add anything to 12 it. 13 The fruit over But the thing that concerns me the most is 14 when you take a close look at the buildings, even 15 though the artist talked about them in the narrative, 16 they really look like '30s and '40s buildings. 17 not modern. 18 They're And I think the artist missed the chance to 19 highlight Lower Manhattan and the new World Trade 20 Center there. 21 with consistent conception of what the 21st century 22 looks like. It would have been a beautiful design And it would have been a no-brainer for me 1 and I would have chosen it right away and would happily 2 choose it if we could modify it. Going down through the others, I for one am 3 4 tired of the military portrayal of Liberty. 5 that needs to come across to the artistic community, 6 the IAB people, that when you do the next one for 2021, 7 and there will be a next one, stay away from that 8 theme. I think 9 We do enough as it is with the commemorative 10 coin programs and the medals that we ought to be able 11 to do a Liberty without putting her in a chainmail suit 12 and put a sword in her hand. 13 she's dragging a tree. 14 would have been fine, but that's a tree. 15 Looking at number five, This doesn't work. The anatomy is off on number six. A branch That neck 16 just -- it just doesn't fit. 17 angle is good for the face. 18 got to get the anatomy right or it just doesn't go. 19 The concept is good. The But for our artist, you've Seven plows no new ground. I personally like 20 eight because I like the concept of the dove of peace 21 in the hand. 22 to get the same relief on that dove as you do the But to make that thing work, you've got 1 woman, Liberty. 2 perspective across the plane of the coin. 3 eight, or I mean nine at all, never will. 4 Otherwise, you're going to lose your Ten, yeah, I get it completely. I don’t like But when I 5 try to envision, you're going to achieve -- I think 6 you'll achieve the highest relief on that forehead and 7 the curl of hair, the roll of hair there. 8 9 How are you going to tail that off and maintain those rays? Is it just -- you can't have a 10 cliff there, guys. 11 you -- where are you going to make that design actually 12 come across as a human head with rays emanating from 13 it? 14 There's really no way to. It doesn't do that in that sketch. How are It really 15 doesn't. 16 it's going to be blown parallel to the high relief of 17 the hair in the roll there. 18 that relief. 19 that I cannot envision -- and that's what's troubling 20 me. 21 22 And you've got -- that hair, if it's blown, So that's got to maintain And all of a sudden, you've got this area It would have been an easy choice. But I can't get the execution and how that's going to look on 1 a high relief coin. And we need to think about that 2 after we talk about or after we vote because I can see 3 the train. 4 guys, those rays are going to come way and the hair's 5 going to go the other way in terms of -- it's just not 6 there. It's left the station on number 10. All right. 7 Reverses. But We have a lot of nice 8 eagles here. 9 particularly on the back of our dollar coin and I'm 10 But we've done a lot of flying eagles, tired of them. 11 I'm ready for the head of an eagle. 12 gets to -- well, not that one. 13 rooster on that one. 14 like. 15 MS. LANNIN: 16 MR. MORAN: And that I can't get past a This is the one that I really Yes. It has personality. The feathers 17 are going to fade to the edge of the coin or the medal. 18 I think it will look good and it has my vote going 19 forward. 20 21 22 MR. WEINMAN: Excuse me. Number seven, just for the record. MR. MORAN: Number seven. Yes, number seven. 1 Let's go to number three. 2 Airborne shoulder patch. 3 go down this road in the future. 4 the head of an eagle, you can't do it like that, at 5 least not for me to get my vote. 6 It looks more like the 101st And we need -- we need to not If we're going to do All right. Now, let's go to the CFA, design number six. 7 I get it. 8 problems with those wing feathers. 9 Jeanne will probably get me on this. I liked it the first time. But I have That's not -- and When an eagle is 10 diving, the wings are first tucked and then they come 11 out as you get to the prey. 12 And then, you can see the claws are there. 13 That's an aggressive eagle. 14 be bracing the eagle for the blow that's going to come 15 and they're not doing that. 16 But those feathers should From a bird lover's point of view, there's 17 problems there. 18 on number 10, the obverse, the flowing rays and hair 19 and the matching feathers. 20 with what is cute versus what is correct. 21 my comments. 22 And I know what we did. MS. LANNIN: We loved that Let's don’t get caught up Thank you, Michael. So there are Dennis? 1 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 2 MS. LANNIN: 3 Can I add to -- Oh, I'm sorry, Jeanne. I didn't see you. 4 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Oh, I'm here. I just 5 want to add to Mike's comments about the wing. 6 true. 7 go one step further. It is not correct to come in. 8 9 It is But I'm going to The secondary and primary feathers are not equal in length and this is what it's indicated. So 10 those feathers that are near the lowest and near the 11 back, they should be a whole lot shorter. 12 were shorter, then I think you would get the idea that 13 this wing was coming in and starting to break it. 14 And if they But the way it is right now, those of you who 15 are doing bird wings, please pay attention. 16 feathers. 17 right size. 18 You need to do that. Count the And make them the I think that the artist did compensate by 19 shadowing those flight feathers on the top. You've got 20 a little bit of shadow there. 21 toward the shoulder, those feathers are a whole lot 22 shorter. But as you come down And I think you just have to go and look at 1 some of the other designs, and you'll see that some of 2 the other artists did recognize that. So my compliments again to those who submitted 3 4 these designs. I think it was a portfolio that was 5 very interesting to work with. 6 MS. LANNIN: Thanks, Jeanne. 7 MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you. Dennis? 8 that this is a beautiful portfolio. 9 wonderful draftsmanship here and creativity. I agree There's a lot of Some of 10 my comments -- I've taken a lot of notes on this 11 program. 12 what we've already heard. 13 And some of my comments will be repetitive of But since they are going into the record and 14 will be hopefully read by future artists in this 15 program and others, I think it's important to get that 16 repetition in. 17 counter to what other committee members have said. 18 And so, some of my comments will run If we reserve our endorsement for designs that 19 reflect a new, modern, 21st century depiction of 20 Liberty, ideally we want to see things numismatically 21 that we have not seen from the late 1700s, the 1800s or 22 the 1900s. 1 Donald, you talked about this. Here are some 2 things that we've already seen plenty of in American 3 numismatics. 4 Phrygian caps. Long-haired, profiled bust portraits. The ancient Roman liberty cap and pole motif 5 6 and the Statue of Liberty. 7 might discourage but not necessarily try to avoid 8 completely are diadems, coronets and tiaras. 9 have never been popular real headwear in the United 10 Other elements that we States. 11 Flying eagles, we've had dozens of them since 12 the 1790s. 13 woman, basically women in repose and active or 14 unmoving. 15 These Seated liberty woman, standing liberty I don’t think we need to see that. Flowing garments in a neoclassical style. And 16 here's something to consider. Maybe something we don’t 17 need to see is human beings at all. 18 go above and beyond the concept of depicting liberty as 19 a person or something tangible. 20 intangible. You know, we can Maybe think 21 I wanted to throw this out as well. Some old 22 designs from pats U.S. coins that might be considered 1 innovative today. If you look at the 1926 Oregon Trail 2 memorial half dollar, the obverse of that coin has a 3 family in a covered wagon, are either heading west into 4 the sunset. This is a design by James Earle Fraser and 5 6 Laura Gardin Fraser. It's iconic Americana. Okay. 7 It's symbolic of the American liberty of movement and 8 self-actualized rebirth, which is the American dream. 9 It's not a standing liberty. If you look at the 1992 25th Olympiad half 10 11 dollar, which has a leaping gymnast, you'll have to go 12 back to your -- maybe, or maybe you can envision it. 13 MS. LANNIN: That's not a plug. 14 MR. TUCKER: That's not a plug. 15 design by William Cousins. 16 the air. 17 relief, if you look at it. 18 This is a The gymnast is leaping in It's very graceful. It almost has a high And her feet are stretched from -- they're at 19 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock on this coin design. 20 a human figure. 21 sitting. 22 active. But she's not standing. She's not looking. So it is She's not She's leaping. She's 1 So to me, the two designs in particular in 2 today's portfolio, that show Ms. Liberty in a 3 nontraditional way are number six and number eight. 4 In number six, for the obverse, Ms. Liberty 5 has a presence and a power not seen in American coins 6 of the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries. 7 She's strong. 8 viewer, which gives the impression that she holds a 9 position of height, which conveys strength, authority 10 She's beautiful. She's looking downward and toward the and freedom. 11 The arcs at the lower right are wonderfully 12 open to interpretation and I would love to hear what 13 the artist thinks about those and why those were 14 included. 15 wind. 16 give this design a sense of motion. 17 They could be a robe or a cape moving in the They could be feathers or palm fronds. They It's dynamic. And movement is a dimension that we don’t 18 always see in American coins. 19 we've talked about in the past, certainly in modern 20 coins. 21 22 It's something that And almost never in older traditional motifs. To me, the combination of Ms. Liberty's exotic and beautiful look here, the illusion of motion and a 1 nod to tradition with the laurels in her hair makes for 2 a bold and innovative design. 3 If we look at number eight, this is one of the 4 depictions of Ms. Liberty that I endorsed back in March 5 of 2016, which was my first CCAC meeting. 6 And yes, this design uses many traditional 7 symbols such as the robe or chiton, the rayed tiara and 8 the lamp of knowledge and enlightenment, both of which 9 are reminiscent of the Statue of Liberty. These are 10 all things that we've seen in American numismatic 11 design. 12 What elevates this design is the action of Ms. 13 Liberty's release of the dove. 14 motion to an otherwise static scene. 15 attractive scene, it's true, but essentially just 16 another standing liberty without that element. 17 flight of the dove embodies so much hope, anticipation 18 and potential. 19 It gives energy and It's an The And there's a secondary layer of meaning in 20 this symbolism. Liberty here is not just a passive 21 freedom or potential energy to do or not do whatever 22 you want. This is kinetic energy. This is Liberty 1 active in the spread of peace. The dove traditionally represents or 2 3 symbolized peace. 4 guided by enlightenment, using her strength and 5 goodness to release peace into the world. 6 So this is modern American Liberty, To summarize, obverse six has strength in its 7 simplicity. 8 symbolism. 9 Obverse eight has strength in its When I looked at the reverses, I had all of 10 these thoughts of war and peace and freedom and liberty 11 in mind. 12 the constant use or the repetitive use of war or 13 military themes in the depiction of Liberty. 14 And Mike, I think you made a good point about For me, the reverse designs that stand out are 15 two and five. 16 that we haven't really touched on much here, but these 17 two designs give the eagle some symbolism, but beyond 18 simply being the traditional embodiment of America. 19 These two designs, and these are ones All right. We know that the eagle represents 20 America. Let's do something more with it. All of the 21 naturalistic eagles, all of these eagles would grab the 22 dove of peace out of the air and eat him for lunch. 1 You know, we commented on how aggressive they look. 2 We've commented in this meeting and in past meetings on 3 some of these designs. 4 When we give the eagle something symbolic to 5 carry, he becomes more of a symbol himself, something 6 with purpose. 7 that we're sending. 8 ones that are simply showing portions of an eagle's 9 anatomy. 10 So we have to be aware of the message For this reason, I discount the Yes, the eagle represents America. But let's go further with that. 11 If we give him an arrow, that casts a shadow 12 on the peaceful liberty message of the obverse design. 13 So I forget which one it was. 14 number one, I think we can discount that. 15 discard number one because of that conflict with the 16 arrows. 17 One of these, it's We just But if we give him an olive branch, which is 18 another symbol of peace, along with the dove, and an 19 oak branch, which is a symbol of strength and maturity, 20 it makes the eagle a protective companion to the dove, 21 rather than a competitor, an adversary or a potential 22 threat. 1 So for this reason, combining those two themes 2 and those two designs, I lean toward the one that shows 3 Ms. Liberty releasing the dove and then either two or 4 five for the reverse. 5 nice design. 6 We just have to think about the potential that we have 7 here. 8 9 I do like 10. I think it's a Again, all of these are nicely rendered. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Dennis. I'd like to say that I'm pleased that the CFA came up with the 10 combination that they did. 11 wonderful. 12 feathers to the Jeanne standard to make that 13 anatomically it's correct, this happens to be my 14 favorite combination. It's dynamic. I think that it's If we can adjust the 15 I think we should keep almost all of the eagle 16 designs kind of in a back drawer for us because I think 17 at some point we're going to find that we're going to 18 need just an eagle's head, plainly, simply, angrily, 19 whatever. 20 run with the eagle designs. 21 22 But I think that we've had a really great This, the obverse number 10 is just absolutely my favorite. Number nine I liked for the separation of 1 Liberty by the rays. But she looks a bit too uncertain 2 for me. 3 having the hair flow over her ear, because it's a 4 rather large ear for the size skull she has. 5 the lobe of her ear I think is an excellent workaround. 6 I'm very pleased with number 10 for an obverse In number 10, Jeanne's suggested fix-it of 7 and number six for a reverse. 8 contribute. 9 anything? 10 And that's all I have to Would anybody else like to mention All right. MR. WEINMAN: I think we should vote. Once again, Robert and Heidi, if 11 you could send me your -- send me your scores. 12 Mary? 13 total? Mary? 14 15 Just show Yes. Why don’t we recess until we have a Let's actually -- let's do at least 2:00. MS. LANNIN: We're going to take a 10-minute recess while we total everything up. 16 (Whereupon, the foregoing went off the record 17 at 11:36 a.m., and went back on the record at 18 11:46 a.m.) 19 MS. LANNIN: Can we please have everyone 20 seated for the reading of the vote? 21 results. 22 MR. WEINMAN: Okay. These are the The result of the vote is 1 as follows. For obverse -- I'll pull up the screen -- 2 obverse number one has received one vote. 3 number two received two. 4 three. Obverse number three received Obverse number four received one. 5 6 number five received three. 7 received 12. 8 Obverse number eight received 10. 9 received eight. Obverse number six Obverse number nine And obverse number 10 received 19. MR. MORAN: 11 MR. WEINMAN: There it is. Moving on to the reverses, 12 reverse number one received two. 13 received five. 14 I'm sorry, zero. 15 then obverse number three received zero. 16 Obverse Obverse number seven received one. 10 Reverse number two Reverse number three received three -Sorry, my apologies. Two, five and Obverse number four received one. 17 number five received five. 18 13. 19 number eight received six. 20 received seven. 21 finally, reverse number 10 received 15. 22 Obverse Obverse number six received Obverse number seven received nine. I’m sorry. MR. JANSEN: Obverse Obverse Obverse number nine Reverse, all reverse. What's it take to approve? And 1 2 MS. LANNIN: Greg? MR. WEINMAN: 3 4 so, you have it. MS. LANNIN: 6 MR. WEINMAN: So we need 15. And Okay. We have it. With 15, unless you want to make a motion. 8 9 We have 10. You have it. 5 7 What's the number to approve, MS. LANNIN: Erik, would you like to say something? 10 MR. JANSEN: Seeing that by the vote, we would 11 have nominally chosen reverse 10 as a reverse and 12 reverse -- obverse 10 as the choice, I want to focus on 13 the obverse. 14 some modifications or at least recommended 15 modifications. I said previously that I might want to do And amongst that are two of them. 16 One, I'd like to invite the committee to 17 discuss how to maybe take a look at the ear here, 18 whether it's right, wrong -- 19 MS. WASTWEET: 20 MR. MORAN: 21 MR. JANSEN: 22 better? Erik, I can't hear you. Put your mic on. All right. My -- is that any 1 MS. WASTWEET: 2 MR. JANSEN: Yeah, perfect. Okay. My mic is blinking. I'm 3 focusing on the reverse -- excuse me, obverse number 4 10, that appears to be the committee's choice by vote. 5 And I'm wanting to invite the committee to 6 discuss a couple of modifications there, one to discuss 7 how we feel about the ear, whether it's right or wrong 8 or just more than it needs to be. 9 And second of all, I would like to at least 10 revisit the idea that looking left is at the past and 11 looking right is at the future and entertain the 12 thought, even though I kind of haven't done the full 13 projection in my mind of how it changes the layout of 14 Liberty if we do that. 15 for thoughts before any motion gets put on the table. But I would just toss that out 16 MS. LANNIN: 17 MR. MORAN: 18 MS. WASTWEET: 19 MR. MORAN: 20 way. 21 cliff with the hair. 22 The ear's too big. Michael? Heidi, can you hear me? I can. Help. I mean, Erik is going one I'm having problems envisioning how you avoid a The hair's too long over the ear. Fix this thing, please. 1 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 2 MS. WASTWEET: Take the ear out. I would just make note of, you 3 know, the ear and the hair could be a little more fine- 4 tuned and leave that discretion up to the artist to not 5 be a slave to the drawing but, you know, use their 6 artistic license in the anatomy. 7 I'm not opposed to flipping it to the other 8 side. I think that would work too. 9 either way. 10 MR. MORAN: 11 MS. WASTWEET: But I'm fine What about -If we try to sit here -- but if 12 we sit here and try to dictate, oh, make the ear, you 13 know, 10 percent smaller and put the hair over the ear 14 and all that, it's just too difficult. 15 MR. MORAN: How about the fading off of the 16 head and the hairline within the rays, considering this 17 whole thing is going to be high relief? 18 19 20 MR. JANSEN: Ron, do you have any thoughts on that? MS. WASTWEET: Well, the -- it looks like the 21 liberty letters are meant to be raised. So inevitably, 22 the rays that are coming off of her head, especially in 1 the high relief, they're going to have to go from high 2 and then tilt back towards the field as it reaches the 3 rim because it's the only way to do it. 4 MR. JANSEN: Would those letters necessarily 5 have to be positive relief? 6 What would that do to the field's design? 7 MS. WASTWEET: Could they be incused? They could be. They could be. 8 Yeah, and you have to treat the rays very delicately so 9 they don’t, you know, make the letters camouflaged so 10 to speak. 11 12 MR. JANSEN: Again, in high relief, we've got this extra dimension to -- 13 MS. WASTWEET: 14 MR. JANSEN: 15 MR. MORAN: 16 MR. JANSEN: 17 MR. URAM: 19 MR. JANSEN: She can't hear you. I think the battery on this mic Go with that one. All right. That one's -- Is that better? Yeah, that sounds better. 21 22 Say again? is -- 18 20 Your mic's not on, Erik. MS. WASTWEET: Yeah. Yeah, I can hear you now. 1 MR. JANSEN: Yeah. In the high relief, what 2 would you -- what does your intuition tell you on going 3 incused with the word liberty? 4 it -- 5 MS. WASTWEET: 6 MR. JANSEN: And if we were to flip It's better. If we were -- yeah, it seems to 7 me as well. 8 emanating -- the word starts down at her blowing hair 9 and moves up to the 12 o'clock position. 10 MS. WASTWEET: 15 I think it's not quite as elegant as having it start at the top. 13 14 MR. JANSEN: I know, and that's my sense as MS. LANNIN: Okay, Erik. well. I'd like to say 16 something. 17 are trained to go from left to right. 18 this position. 19 20 21 22 How's that going to feel? 11 12 If we were to flip it, it puts liberty Our end of the world is trained -- our eyes MR. JANSEN: I like it in Not the whole world is obviously. Some read right to left. MS. LANNIN: you start at the left. No, no. But it's -- you look -- I like it flipped in this 1 direction. To me, one of the very first things you see 2 is how steady her eye is. 3 MR. JANSEN: OH, yes. 4 MS. LANNIN: And I think that the elegance of 5 that and then flowing off into her hair and the rays, I 6 think we're trying to redo what's really a beautiful 7 piece of art. 8 9 And I think that what we need to do is trust that the sculptors at the Mint will take care of any 10 small issues with the lobe of the ear and covering that 11 up. I think you're trying to do too much. 12 MR. JANSEN: I'm good. 13 MS. LANNIN: Okay. 14 MR. JANSEN: I just think this is -- and this 15 I'm good with that. is coin geek stuff. 16 MS. LANNIN: Yeah. 17 MR. JANSEN: But this is modern, flowing hair. 18 MS. LANNIN: No, I think this is -- this is 19 20 really a beautiful -- a beautiful profile. MR. MORAN: Heidi, it's Mike again. Looking 21 at the rays, we've got light and dark there. Do you 22 envision those all, both the light and the dark, in 1 varying degrees of relief moving from her head to the 2 rim? MS. WASTWEET: 3 Yes. But there can't be a lot 4 of difference in the elevation from the white rays to 5 the gray rays. 6 MR. MORAN: Right. 7 MS. WASTWEET: And you can see that the artist 8 has shaded them very close. 9 It's light gray and white. 10 So that to me indicates that it suggests a step from one ray to the next. 11 MR. MORAN: 12 MS. LANNIN: 13 It's not black and white. Okay. Any other questions or comments? Jeanne? 14 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 15 MS. LANNIN: 16 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I'm going to -- Is it in? I'm going to just 17 reiterate that the simplest fix for this ear thing is 18 to suggest to the artist to just leave the lobe on 19 there and take away the ear part. 20 I think it will help this design a whole lot 21 and it wouldn't interfere with the rays that I feel 22 like, you know, are the rays of liberty. I don’t know, 1 Heidi, if you agree with that or not. 2 envision the ear gone, except for the lobe. MS. WASTWEET: 3 Yeah. But I do Thank you. I think that that would 4 be a good solution to this, a softer movement of hair 5 across the ear that obscures the ear more. 6 MR. JANSEN: Thanks for the discussion. 7 MS. LANNIN: Ladies and gentlemen, I think we 8 have a pairing. 9 And now, let's break for lunch. MR. MORAN: Just a minute, Mary. 10 MS. LANNIN: No? 11 MR. JANSEN: Just not so fast. 12 MR. MORAN: 13 Oh, Mike? I know. I know. Let's go to the reverse. 14 MS. WASTWEET: 15 MR. MORAN: 16 MS. LANNIN: 17 MR. MORAN: All right. Let's say in the event -Okay. -- that Treasury overrules the 18 CCAC in favor of the CFA selection, let's go to the CFA 19 solution. 20 position known that these feathers need help. 21 22 I think that the -- we need to make our MS. LANNIN: So again, I think that that should be left up to the discretion of the Mint 1 artists. Ron? MR. HARRIGAL: 2 Yes. We do check for anatomy 3 and do corrections and, in this case, unless it's a 4 stylized eagle that is meant to be stylized, as you 5 would say, we would definitely look at the correct 6 depiction of the feathers. 7 MR. JANSEN: And with all due respect, I might 8 ask that in your letter to the secretary, you mention 9 that this was a close runner-up. 10 MS. LANNIN: Oh, absolutely. 11 MR. JANSEN: And in that regard, that these 12 feathers are not only kind of anatomically correct but 13 also resist the urge to turn it into 13 feathers and 14 truly have some respect for the bird, even though we 15 try to bleed the wing off the edge. 16 17 MS. LANNIN: we'll see in the -- 18 19 MR. JANSEN: 22 Who knows what we'll see. But it'll be good, independent thought, I'm sure. 20 21 All right, and who knows what MS. LANNIN: Thank you. We are breaking for lunch. (Whereupon, the foregoing went off the record 1 at 11:57 a.m., and went back on the record at 2 1:07 p.m.) 3 MS. LANNIN: All right. I would like to call 4 our group back to order. 5 the review of the designs for the 2018 American 6 Innovation $1 Coin Program. 7 the meeting over to April. 8 9 MR. WEINMAN: The next order of business is And I would like to turn Before that, real quickly, once again this is a reminder that if you are on the phone, 10 please mute your phone. 11 noise. 12 much. 13 AMERICAN INNOVATION $1 COIN PROGRAM 14 We're hearing background And so, please mute your phone. Thank you very April? MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. On July 20, 2018, 15 the president signed a bill authorizing a new 16 numismatic $1 coin program honoring innovation in the 17 United States. 18 The common obverse design for this program 19 must feature a likeness of the Statue of Liberty 20 extending to the rim of the coin and large enough to 21 provide a dramatic representation of Liberty, as well 22 as the inscriptions "$1" and "In God We Trust". 1 Beginning in 2019, four coins will be released 2 every year, one for each state, territory and the 3 District of Columbia. 4 legislation allows for an introductory coin to be 5 released in 2018 with a reverse featuring George 6 Washington's signature on the first United States 7 patent as well as the inscriptions "American 8 Innovators" and "United States of America". 9 To introduce the program, the A portfolio of designs for this 2018 10 introductory coin was presented to the CCAC on July 11 31st, with a single obverse and multiple reverse 12 designs presented. 13 Given the feedback, we've developed a new 14 portfolio with multiple designs for the obverse and a 15 new set of designs for the reverse. 16 We'll start today with the obverse designs and 17 look at the recommendation by the CFA, actually the 18 CFA's recommendations for both obverse and reverse. 19 They had two recommendations for obverse, design eight 20 and design 12. 21 design 13. 22 the portfolio. And for the reverse, they recommended I'll make note of this as we move through 1 Starting with the obverse designs, all obverse 2 designs feature images of the Statue of Liberty. 3 Starting with obverse 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 -- again, 4 this is one of two obverse recommendations by the CFA. 5 (Telephone music playing.) 6 MS. STAFFORD: 7 MR. WEINMAN: 8 MS. STAFFORD: 9 MR. WEINMAN: 10 11 MR. MORAN: Somebody put us on hold. Once again -They put us on hold. Please mute your hold. I see what they're doing on the other side. 12 MS. STAFFORD: Design obverse 9, 10, 11 and 13 12, the second of two obverse recommendations by the 14 CFA. 15 Moving on to the reverse candidate designs, 16 reverse 1 depicts George Washington's signature on the 17 first patent, along with the inscriptions "American 18 Innovators" and "United States of America". 19 also features a quill and ink well, symbolizing the 20 signing of the patent, and a rising sun, symbolizing 21 the dawning of an era of American innovation. 22 The design Reverse two depicts George Washington's 1 signature above the inscription "Issued First U.S. 2 Patent". 3 lightbulb as an iconic symbol of the inventions of 4 American innovators, as well as the illumination of 5 innovative ideas. 6 "American Innovators" and "United States of America". The design also features Thomas Edison's The additional inscriptions are Reverse three depicts George Washington's 7 8 signature and the inscriptions "United States of 9 America" and "American Innovators". The design also 10 features an image of the 15-star flag that was in use 11 during the early years of the U.S. Patent Office. 12 Reverse four depicts George Washington's 13 signature above the inscription "Signed First Patent". 14 Additional inscriptions include "American Innovators", 15 "1790" and "United States of America". 16 features an image of the U.S. Patent Office relief 17 found on the Herbert C. Hoover Building in Washington, 18 D.C., the headquarters of the Department of Commerce 19 and once the home of the U.S. Patent and Trademark 20 Office. 21 22 The design also Reverses 5, 6, 7 and 8 all feature George Washington's signature and the inscriptions "American 1 Innovators" and "United States of America". 2 stylized gears represent industry and innovation. 3 Designs 5 and 8 include the inscription "Signed First 4 Patent" under Washington's signature, with design 5 5 also featuring the inscription "1790". 6 includes the inscription "1790 First Patent Signed By" 7 above Washington's signature. 8 and 8. 9 The Design 7 Here is reverse 5, 6, 7 Reverse 9 depicts George Washington's 10 signature on the first patent as if inscribed on a 11 piece of paper and the inscriptions "American 12 Innovators" and an American cowboy hat, a symbol of an 13 independent spirit and resilient nature. 14 The design's border features American-created 15 C computer programming language, shown here as a code 16 to display the words "United States of America" as 17 included as an inscription. 18 head screw, another American invention, is depicted on 19 the border. 20 Additionally, the Philips- Reverse 10 depicts George Washington's 21 signature and the inscriptions "American Innovators" 22 and "United States of America". The design also 1 includes a cowboy hat and an astronaut, depicted as if 2 on separate pieces of paper but also placed to suggest 3 the astronaut is wearing the hat, a playful combination 4 of two American icons to create a uniquely American 5 figure. 6 invention, is featured on the border. The Philips-head screw, another American 7 Reverse 11 features George Washington's 8 signature on the first patent, as well as a hand 9 holding a quill, representing the moment of signing. 10 Above the signature is potash and the fertilizer it was 11 transformed into by the process invented by Samuel 12 Hopkins, for which the first patent was granted. 13 Finally, the design includes the inscriptions "United 14 States of America", "First Patent" and "American 15 Innovators". 16 Reverse 12 features an artist's conception of 17 the first patent that was issued on July 31, 1790. 18 President George Washington, whose signature is boldly 19 depicted, has just signed the document, as noted by the 20 quill pen. 21 "United States of America", "American Innovators" and 22 "First U.S. Patent July 31, 1790". The design also includes the inscriptions 1 Reverse 13, again the CFA's recommended 2 reverse design for this program, features a document 3 representing the first U.S. patent issued featuring a 4 bold depiction of George Washington's signature. The 13 stars along the rim represents the 13 5 6 states in existence in 1780. The design also includes 7 the inscriptions "First Patent of the United States of 8 America July 31, 1790" and "American Innovators". Finally, reverse 14 depicts George 9 10 Washington's signature under a man steering a large 11 vessel. 12 patent, which advanced changes in the production of 13 potash used in making fertilizer and considered the 14 first industrial chemical. 15 the inscriptions "American Innovators", "First U.S. 16 Patent Grant 1790" and "United States of America". 17 This represents the U.S. -- the first U.S. MS. LANNIN: The design also features Thank you so much, April. 18 have Robert on the phone? 19 we do have Heidi on the phone. 20 MS. WASTWEET: 21 MS. LANNIN: 22 MS. WASTWEET: We don’t have Robert. Do we But Is that correct? Yes, I'm here. Heidi, would you like to begin? Oh, I'll -- 1 2 MS. LANNIN: Is that unfair? wait? 3 MS. WASTWEET: 4 MS. LANNIN: 5 MS. WASTWEET: 6 MS. LANNIN: 7 8 9 No, I can go first. Okay. So on the obverse -Heidi, is that you making those additional noises? MS. WASTWEET: No. That is not me. That is not my phone. 10 MS. LANNIN: 11 MR. HOGE: 12 finally connected. Okay. Hello. 13 MS. LANNIN: 14 MR. WEINMAN: 15 MS. LANNIN: 16 Would you rather This is Robert. I'm Okay, good. Oh, good, Robert. Good, good. Okay. Heidi, why don’t you start? 17 MR. HOGE: Hello? 18 MS. LANNIN: 19 MR. HOGE: 20 MR. WEINMAN: 21 MR. HOGE: 22 MR. WEINMAN: Robert, we can hear you. Hello? Can you hear us, Robert? Yes, I hear you. Okay. Okay, just -- 1 2 MS. LANNIN: Heidi is going to speak first, and then I will call on you, Robert, okay? 3 MR. HOGE: Okay. 4 MS. LANNIN: 5 MS. WASTWEET: All right, Heidi. Okay. Go. So one thing I noticed 6 on the obverses as a group, only number 10 attempts to 7 bring in another element other than the statue itself, 8 which I found really curious because the first thing 9 I'm -- the primary thing I'm looking for in these 10 11 designs is innovation. But the artists really seem to just focus on 12 the statue and they didn't bring in any other 13 creativity at all. 14 So that's very curious. And the other thing I see are a lot of these 15 are an extreme perspective from looking from the bottom 16 basically up the nose of the Liberty. 17 sculptor, there are three things -- three rules that I 18 have of things that I never put on a coin. 19 And as a coin One is teeth, and open face -- you know, an 20 open-mouthed smile showing teeth. The second thing is 21 an animal with a muzzle pointed straight at you. 22 the third thing is this extreme angle of looking up the And 1 nose of a person. So by that, it disqualified number two, number 2 3 three, number five, possibly number six, definitely 4 number 10. 5 those for that reason. 6 But on a coin, in a bas relief sculpt, this never looks 7 good. 8 9 So those -- I'm not even going to consider They look fine in the drawing. Design number one, I do think this angle is fresh and new and can be considered innovative. 10 don’t love it. 11 I've eliminated because of the angle. 12 remark that I do like the composition of the letters. 13 I like the way those are stacked. 14 But it is unique. I Design number three But I want to It's very nice. Number four, I don’t like the way the dollar 15 sign is at an angle because when these are in hand, 16 people are going to naturally turn this coin so that 17 the one is straight and that means that the statue is 18 going to be falling backwards because they're not 19 looking at this on a page. 20 in the hand. 21 22 They'll be looking at this Number five I think is not dynamic enough. Number six, it seems like, you know, we've seen this 1 angle done a lot. Number seven, I don’t like the way 2 the words "In God We Trust" run over the face and the 3 face is really crowded down into the corner of the 4 coin. I don’t think this is going to sculpt well. Number eight is my personal favorite. 5 And the 6 reason for that is it has something we rarely see in 7 design and that's white space. 8 space, breathing room. 9 that I really like. It has a lot of white So it has a cleanliness to it I do find that the "In God We Trust" lettering 10 11 is kind of boring. You know, it doesn't -- it's just 12 straight across. 13 little more there. 14 dollar sign and the one the same height. 15 the idea here. I wish they had done something a And then I'd also like to see the But I like 16 Number nine I think is just unattractive. 17 Number 10 I've already disqualified because of the 18 angle. 19 could work and it also has some clean white space there 20 which I like. 21 22 Number 11 I think is interesting. I'd be okay with that one. Number 12 is just a CFA pick. about that one. This one I'm not crazy I don’t think it's really innovative. 1 It's kind of attractive. 2 innovative. 3 But I wouldn't call it So moving to the reverses, on the reverses, I 4 think it's a problem to put an image of a specific 5 invention because that's going to imply that the first 6 patent was for that invention; for example, number two 7 with the lightbulb. 8 the first patent, which it was not. 9 It implies that the lightbulb was And the other thing is we don’t know down the 10 line what inventions are going to be featured on the 11 other side. 12 first piece. 13 I'd rather have something generic on this Number three I think is innovative. 14 really interesting design. 15 because of visibility of the text "American 16 Innovators". 17 But it loses points for me I do like design number four. 18 the shield. 19 medal than a coin. 20 wouldn't think, oh, this is a coin. 21 is a token or a medal. 22 It's a I like using It's also wordy and it looks more like a If I had this in my hand, I I would think this Designs five, six, seven and eight all utilize 1 gears. I think this is a really good symbology to use 2 here because it's generic enough. 3 speak to innovation and industry and I think that's a 4 really good symbology for us here. But the gears really Of these four designs, I think I'm leaning 5 6 towards design number eight. 7 incused. 8 And I like that. I like that the gears are That's something we don’t see too much of. The shield is small. But I think it works that way, sort of -- you 9 10 know, we don’t have to see all of the detail. 11 nice little small shield that adds interest and 12 significance and it's well laid out. 13 lot. Number seven I also liked. 14 15 inaudible.) 16 my favorite. It's a I like this one a (Cough, So I'm divided between seven and eight as 17 Number nine, I would think this is a patent 18 for a hat and number 10, I don’t -- I appreciate the 19 effort to do something really different here. 20 don’t think it's working. 21 reference to the potash is too obscure. 22 is okay. But I Number 11, I think the I wouldn't call it innovative. And number 12 But it's 1 2 okay. The CFA pick of number 13, I don’t think this 3 is going to coin well at all. 4 of wording and it works in a design, in a drawing. 5 I don’t think that's going to work on a coin, 6 especially a dollar size coin. 7 confusing. 8 some image in there somewhere. 9 There's wording on top It's going to be very And it's all words, which I prefer to have And 14, it's okay that we can't really read 10 the signature. 11 should be legible, which it's not. 12 reference is accurate, but I don’t know that it's 13 terribly interesting. 14 15 16 17 18 But I think all the rest of the wording And the potash So I'm going to throw my votes towards seven and eight. And I think that concludes my remarks. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much, Heidi. Robert, are you with us? MR. HOGE: Yes, I am. Thank you. I concur 19 pretty much fully with what Heidi had to say. I was 20 actually disappointed with this portfolio because so 21 many of the designs seemed very two-dimensional, much 22 more so than is necessary. And I wasn't very pleased 1 with the ones that are not so two-dimensional, mainly 2 with the hat and the one with the space cowboy, number 3 10. 4 obscure. 5 Some of these designs are just too weak. They're flat. They're They don’t do a whole lot. I think the gears are probably effective, as 6 Heidi had mentioned, even though they're basically two- 7 dimensional things. 8 probably numb seven or possibly number eight. 9 So my favorite probably is And actually, number one, even though we 10 rejected it the first go round is really not the worst 11 of these designs, I think. 12 other comments that Heidi made as well. 13 MS. LANNIN: 14 MR. HOGE: And I agree with all of the Thank you. Thank you, Robert. For the -- so I'll just talk about 15 the reverses there. 16 things -- you know, being tied to the Statue of Liberty 17 gives us a certain limitation. 18 really are reminiscent of pieces we have already seen. 19 So it's hard to say what is good. 20 Now, for the obverses, these And a number of these I do take an exception to number 11 because of 21 the fierce, stern look of her face. That's much more 22 appropriate for a Roman emperor than for, you know, a 1 representation of liberty. And I agree with Heidi's 2 comments about the perspectives on a number of these. 3 My favorite, as was the case with Heidi, was 4 number seven. 5 little troubled by the excessive use of shading in the 6 design of this piece. 7 sculpted well and be an effective design. 8 kind of liked number seven. 9 It uses negative space very well. I'm a I assume though that it could be I actually I wasn't troubled by the "In God We Trust" 10 being in smaller letters across the truncation of the 11 lower jaw area because one thing that I find a little 12 bit distasteful on these coins is the enormously 13 prominent use of the words "In God We Trust". 14 I actually really kind of go along with the 15 thoughts of President Teddy Roosevelt in that we really 16 didn't need this kind of thing on coinage. 17 Trust"? 18 "In God We What else are we trusting? And in fact, we have here the image of 19 Liberty, which is a pagan Roman concept, depicted on 20 American coinage with a radiating crown, which is also 21 a symbol of ancient polytheistic divinity. 22 So we have a number of considerations here. 1 Number five is not as attractive. But it's kind of 2 prosaic. 3 enlightenment being truncated the way it is on a number 4 of these other designs. And I don’t like seeing the torch of I think number three is fairly effective 5 6 because of the prominence it gives the figure of 7 Liberty. 8 extraordinarily prominent on this thing. 9 number one is effectively different. But I just don’t 10 know if it's appropriate for a coin. Thank you. 11 12 But again, the "In God We Trust" is MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Robert. I think Donald, you look like you have something to say. 13 MR. SCARINCI: 14 MS. LANNIN: 15 MR. SCARINCI: I do. Good. I think let's look at the big 16 picture first, right, because the big picture is this 17 is going to be a series of coins. 18 You know, and in a series, like when -- if you 19 recall, the way we did the America the Beautiful coins, 20 we actually had the privilege of seeing a pattern of 21 what the standard obverse -- you know, actually the 22 standard reverse inscriptions were going to look like 1 and we actually saw a pattern in the design other than 2 that. 3 throughout the series. 4 And that played itself out on every other design What we have here is there's two things -- 5 there's two big picture things we're deciding today, 6 right? 7 obverse of this entire series is going to look like. 8 Big picture number two is when we go to the 9 Big picture thing number one is what the reverses, are we going to put -- you know, on the 10 reverse, we have to include USA and we have to include 11 "American Innovators" as words. 12 So the design that I like the most without the 13 stuff in the middle is design number 11, reverse 11 14 that has "United States of America" on top, "American 15 Innovators" on the bottom. 16 And that's fairly consistent with what we did 17 with the America the Beautiful series, you know, 18 "United States of America" on top and "American 19 Innovators" on the bottom. 20 And then, as we do this series, whatever's 21 going to change is going to be in the middle, right, so 22 that every coin would theoretically, you know, look 1 like that, unless you're telling me the legislation is 2 different. 3 4 Go ahead. MS. STAFFORD: "American Innovators" as an inscription is only required on this introductory coin. 5 MR. SCARINCI: On the first coin? 6 MS. STAFFORD: Yes. 7 MR. SCARINCI: Okay. 8 MS. STAFFORD: And on the subsequent reverses, 9 "United States of America" is a required inscription as 10 well as the jurisdiction or state that's being honored 11 with the significant innovation going forward. 12 13 MR. SCARINCI: So we don’t need "American Innovators" on every coin. 14 MS. STAFFORD: Just on this introductory. 15 MR. SCARINCI: So, but we do need "United 16 States of America" -- 17 MS. STAFFORD: Yes. 18 MR. SCARINCI: -- somewhere. 19 MS. STAFFORD: Yes. 20 MR. SCARINCI: So we should probably put it in 21 the same place, if we could. But it's not necessary. 22 What is missing, of course, from the obverse and the 1 reverse, the obvious thing that's missing is the date. 2 Like -- 3 MS. LANNIN: Edge. 4 MR. MORAN: 5 MS. LANNIN: 6 MR. SCARINCI: Right. It's on the edge. -- where are we putting the 7 date? 8 be put the "In God We Trust" on the edge? 9 MR. TUCKER: 10 11 So we're putting the date on the edge. MR. WEINMAN: So could No. Because the legislation specifies. 12 MS. STAFFORD: It's in the legislation. 13 MR. SCARINCI: It specifies the date on the 14 15 16 edge? MR. WEINMAN: legislation. I didn't have it -- 17 MR. JANSEN: 18 (Cross talk.) 19 MR. JANSEN: 20 MR. WEINMAN: 21 22 I was trying to pull the Date to be -- I have it. The inscriptions are oddly specified. MR. JANSEN: Date, Mint mark and "E Pluribus 1 Unum" on the edge. 2 MR. WEINMAN: 3 MR. SCARINCI: 4 MS. LANNIN: 5 6 7 Yeah. Oh, okay. All right. It's a whole new ballgame, isn't it? MR. SCARINCI: It's a new ballgame. Well, thank God this coin's not going to circulate. 8 MR. JANSEN: Is that a good or a bad thing? 9 MR. SCARINCI: 10 MR. TUCKER: 11 MR. SCARINCI: 12 MR. TUCKER: 13 MR. SCARINCI: 14 MR. MORAN: 15 MR. TUCKER: So -Donald, could I interrupt? Yeah, please. With kind of a side bar -Please do. Bail him out. He's in trouble. A numismatist named Ross Johnson 16 has proposed, or asked this question, Greg. 17 be acceptable for the artist to incorporate the date 18 into those designs? 19 Would it In other words, keep it on the edge, as 20 mandated by legislation, but also use artistic 21 flexibility and interpretation to put the date -- he 22 actually asks date and Mint mark, incorporate that into 1 2 the design. MR. WEINMAN: Typically there's no -- I don’t 3 believe there's anything in the legislation that 4 prohibits additional inscriptions. 5 have additional inscriptions when they advance the 6 design in some way. 7 And often we do So I don’t know that there's necessarily a 8 legal impediment. But it would be a policy question 9 that would have to be -- that would have to be examined 10 internally. It's probably not -- it's probably not 11 prohibited by the legislature. 12 MR. SCARINCI: 13 MS. LANNIN: 14 15 Well, we've certainly got -So under those circumstances, Donald, how would you -MR. SCARINCI: We've certainly -- we've 16 certainly got an outside the box program here, which I 17 guess is what we talk about all the time, right, 18 outside of the box. 19 This is a little outside of the box. So if 20 we're outside of the box, then we should stay outside 21 of the box for the whole series, right? 22 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes. 1 MR. SCARINCI: And why not? And why not? So, 2 you know, if you look at it that way, okay, if we've 3 got an outside of the box program and we're going to do 4 things in this series outside of the box, then let's do 5 it, in which case is it probably the most -- the only 6 one of the Statue of Liberty designs that we haven't 7 really encountered before is probably number one. 8 9 I mean, that's a view of the Statue of Liberty that we haven't seen. Of course you can make the 10 argument this is Liberty looking backwards, which in 11 some ways is what we're going to do. 12 look at the history of American innovation. We're going to We're not going to look at something that 13 14 hasn't been innovated in the future. 15 what's been done before. 16 know, you want a solid portrait of some sort on an 17 obverse. 18 We're looking at So that is logical. You That always makes a good obverse, a good, 19 strong obverse. This is a very unusual angle, never 20 seen before. 21 that I've ever looked at. 22 it. I don’t recall seeing this in any medal So it's got a uniqueness to Everything else has been done before. 1 What I don’t like about eight, to some degree, 2 you know, is the flame is kind of cut off a little bit. 3 You know, so that could probably be fixed because we 4 don’t want to cut the flame off. 5 I could see us getting criticized for, you know, did we 6 put out the flame of liberty in this coin. 7 want to cut off the flame. That would almost -- So we don’t 8 You know, but that would be probably, of all 9 of these designs, you know, the -- you know, the -- a 10 little on the more conventional side. 11 haven't seen this angle. 12 And certainly we So that would be different. I don’t like -- I don’t know what the CFA was 13 thinking about with number 12. 14 arm and flame to me. 15 particular view of the Statue of Liberty. 16 probably be inclined to go with either one or eight, 17 providing that eight does not cut off the flame. 18 Really that's just all So I just don’t like that So I'd And in terms of the reverse, if we're not 19 required to do anything, then I have to look at the 20 reverse -- then I would have to look at the series as a 21 series of medals. 22 medals. Let's just pretend it's a series of So what would we see if we were doing a series 1 of medals from the first medal, right? What we would see in the first medal is 2 3 labeling the series of medals, as is very often the 4 case. 5 about. 6 the CFA, which is kind of surprising that they 7 recommended this because it's probably, you know, the 8 simplest and most boring design. 9 Here's a series of medals. This is what it's And in which case, the very boring selection of But if you look at it from the point of view 10 it's the first coin in a series, so if you're going to 11 display the series, you're going to display the reverse 12 of these coins and you're going to display this one 13 first, which tells you what the series is. 14 So as boring as it may be as a coin 15 individually, as part of a series, you know, it 16 certainly justifies its boredom by labeling the series, 17 you know, which might be more appropriate than any of 18 these other designs, you know, you know, because 19 certainly the gears -- you know, the gear theme, which 20 is kind of cool, you know, I mean, kind of cool what 21 they did with the fears. 22 But, you know, innovation is not necessarily 1 gears. The hat on the astronaut is kind of cute 2 because, you know, it shows like kind of beginning and 3 end to where we -- you know, where -- how you begin and 4 how you end. So from the series point of view, the 5 6 astronaut with the hat, yeah, okay. 7 beginning and the end. 8 9 It symbolizes the The safest thing, until we see more of what this series is really about, probably the safest coin 10 design to go with is what the CFA recommended and 11 that's, you know, reverse 13 on the reverse. 12 guess net-net, I would probably go with obverse one and 13 reverse 13, knowing full well that reverse 13 is boring 14 as well. But so I 15 MS. WASTWEET: Hey, Donald? 16 MR. SCARINCI: Yeah? 17 MS. WASTWEET: If you look close at number 18 eight, the flame's not actually cut off. 19 touches the rim and that's actually specified by the 20 legislation is one point that I'll -- 21 MR. SCARINCI: 22 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: It just Oh, it's not cut of? Yeah. See up on the top 1 of the larger -MS. WASTWEET: 2 Yeah. It looks like it. 3 if you look closely, it's actually not. 4 touches the rim. 5 MR. SCARINCI: 6 MS. LANNIN: 7 MR. SCARINCI: 8 But It just Okay. Old eyes. Yeah. Old guy. I mean, yeah, if it -- if it's not -- 9 MS. LANNIN: 10 MR. SCARINCI: There you go. -- if it doesn't cut it, then 11 it's not -- then we won't be criticized. No, it's a 12 perfectly -- number eight is perfectly nice. 13 I mean, I'd probably -- if we did go with 14 number eight, I would certainly rather see, as Bob 15 suggested earlier, you know, we don’t need to like make 16 "In God We Trust" the biggest thing on the coin. 17 Then we could probably take "In God We Trust" 18 and put it around the rim somehow, you know, make it 19 more circular as opposed to putting it where it is and 20 make it smaller. 21 that big. 22 I don’t think it's necessary to be What's cool about number eight, if we could 1 carry it off, is the use of negative space. But we've 2 got the negative space in number one as well. 3 course, then we're going to hear from Ron tell us that, 4 you know, that won't -- number one will create some 5 sort of a design issue for future coins because it's 6 heavily on one side. 7 So how do we design -- no? Of You have the images on one side. 8 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 9 MR. SCARINCI: It's -- that one's -- Is it? 10 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 11 MR. SCARINCI: 12 MS. LANNIN: 13 MR. URAM: Anyway. Yes, that's nice. That's it. Tom, would you like to go next? Thank you, Madam Chair. I don’t 14 mind number one at all. 15 it, it reminds me of a flyover if you're in the 16 airplane, you know. 17 that's it. 18 I think it has -- the look of You fly over and there it is and But I do like the idea of number eight, of 19 taking the "In God We Trust" and putting it behind from 20 like 1 o'clock to 3 o'clock and then lowering the one 21 down as well. 22 space as well as a good image. And that gives you a lot of negative 1 So I lean towards that versus trying to 2 project number one in a way, if we could do that. 3 would -- now, if you decided to put the date, there 4 would be plenty of room along that edge behind to do 5 the same. 6 That So I would lean towards number eight with a 7 little bit more modification more so than trying to 8 force number one into being. 9 mentioned, all these others with the looking up and all 10 11 I think, as Heidi the different directions is relatively tough. On the reverse, I like the idea of using the 12 symbol in number four. 13 has the initials. 14 privy mark there, you know, that you'd have there. 15 I do like it and I like number eight as well. 16 and eight. 17 It says everything and it also You could kind of call it almost a So So four Number 13 that was the choice of the CFA, it 18 is very stark. 19 just don’t know that you're going to get the same image 20 on a coin with the background there. 21 I just don’t know. 22 happening. I see what they're trying to do. I I just don’t see it If it's just going to look faded out, in my 1 opinion, I don’t know that you'd see the words. 2 Ron would want to address that later on. 3 Maybe So I'm going to lean more towards number four 4 actually, even more so than the gears because, as was 5 pointed out, the gears don’t necessarily represent 6 innovation. 7 necessarily innovation entirely. 8 9 10 It does represent progress, but not So I would lean more towards the institution and the Patent Office and the date. go with number four more so. That's why I would Thank you, Madam Chair. 11 MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Tom. 12 MR. JANSEN: Is this mic working? 13 MS. LANNIN: Yeah. 14 MR. JANSEN: Okay. 15 a particular design. 16 trying to benefit from the thoughts that are being put 17 out there. 18 Erik? I'm not going to advocate I'm learning and listening and Having said that, I find myself eliminating a 19 number of designs and then kind of finding myself 20 ruminating on three or four that are left. 21 there was a favorite that popped out of here. 22 there isn't. I wish But I'm not going to belabor designs that 1 fall out of this. On the obverses, I think obverse eight is 2 3 probably an easy design to go forward with because it 4 doesn't complicate a lot of medal flows, probably well 5 understood for Ron going forward so that it gives us 6 more freedom on the reverse. 7 I like the variability on design 10. But it's 8 got the profile problem that Heidi pulled up. 9 that would be very interesting with the stripes on the I think 10 side, a very interesting design to carry forward 11 because we're going to look at this design for a long 12 time. 13 Design number 11 might emerge out of there 14 because I think it chins all the bars without a big 15 demerit. 16 and smooth of the face. 17 I wish the sculpt could be a little more kind It may be accurate to actually what's up there 18 in New York City in copper on the face of the thing. 19 Perhaps there could be some liberty in making the 20 rendering of the face a little more comforting as 21 opposed to harsh as it is. 22 So I'm going to sit and listen to everybody 1 and I'm not sure where I'll end up on this one. When it comes to the reverses, I think there 2 3 are some fun things here. 4 10 through 14 for various reasons that have been 5 highlighted. 6 chose what might be a medal design in 13. 7 But I'm going to eliminate I think it's unfortunate that the CFA I think that's quite honestly a tragic 8 alternative here, given we've been telling artists for 9 years give us symbols. 10 Don’t give us tons of text and don’t give us collages. 11 I wish -- I wish I could get over the comment 12 that was made at the very beginning, that since the 13 first patent wasn't a lightbulb design, two doesn't 14 work because design two is the idea of ideas. 15 actually like design two on that basis. 16 It doesn't feature 1790 as such a large 17 feature that four and five have. 18 a big thing here. 19 the coin. 20 fundamentally like the layout of four. 21 22 And I I don’t think 1790 is Yet it's the largest item in text on So I have a hard time with that, although I If first patent was promoted in 1790 was maybe demoted to the same font size, I think I could go with 1 four. 2 before. 3 what, two years ago. 4 salvation as bridging the gap to the industrial reality 5 of America. 6 I like the idea of the gears. We've used gears I'm reminded of the platinum coin we did just, And the gears were kind of our So the gears to me kind of work. I like seven or eight. I could work with 7 either one of those. 8 of emphasis and symbology to carry this thing forward. 9 I like the idea of an incused feature on the coin. 10 I think they have the right kind So that's where I end up. I'm not sitting 11 here advocating any one design. 12 we'll see where I end up after everybody's added their 13 thoughts that are clearly better than mine. 14 MS. LANNIN: 15 MR. VIOLA: Thank you, Erik. Thank you. 16 advocate any design myself. 17 favorites. 18 19 20 I'm listening and Thank you. Herman? Well, I'm not going to I don’t have any real I'm not sure if this is working. MR. JANSEN: Push the button. See if it -- here, just pick this guy up and go. MR. VIOLA: Okay. 21 to advocate any design. 22 interesting. Thank you. I'm not going But I think a lot of them are But I would say, you know, frankly I like 1 -- on the obverse, I kind of like number one. 2 know, it's nice and simple, straightforward. 3 guess my vote would be for number four. But, you But I 4 And then, on the reverses, I'm glad we're not 5 going with the cowboy hat or this astronaut and cowboy 6 hat. 7 on that one. 8 like 13 or the last ones there. 9 go with seven or eight on the reverses. So I think I would like, you know, seven or eight But I don’t think we want any of the -- 10 MS. LANNIN: 11 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: So I would say I would Thank you, Herman. Thank you. Jeanne? Thank you, Madam Chair. 12 I appreciate the rework of this portfolio very much. 13 know we were very hard on the initial portfolio given 14 to us some time ago. 15 a unilateral set of designs. 16 And I understand why we had such However, sending them back and then coming -- 17 whoever it was who decided to rework these things -- 18 I'm very proud to be on this committee today to see 19 what was able to be produced after such a harsh 20 critique the last time. 21 22 I So thank you. Thank you, Mint staff, and thank you artists for coming through with all of this. 1 2 I really appreciate it. To go forward on the Liberty on the obverse, 3 I'm somewhat disenchanted with the Liberties that are, 4 you know, with the raised arm that kind of look like a 5 deodorant commercial. 6 eliminate those. 7 I'd just sort of want to So number one, obverse one for me is very 8 clean and fresh. I like it very much. I like the fact 9 that Liberty is identified by the windows in her tiara. 10 I don’t know if we need to have any more icons 11 to state that this is Lady Liberty. 12 direction that she's looking and I also like the fact 13 that we're, you know, over her head. 14 I like the As someone said, we are in an airplane coming 15 in over her. 16 eight, I just think that this one, although very nice - 17 - I think it's very good -- I think we would -- I would 18 anyway tire of looking at this for 15 years where 19 number one, I think every time we have it, is going to 20 be refreshing. 21 22 So with that in mind, looking at number Number 11 is just a great design. features sort of take my breath away. But her So I can't stand 1 behind that one. And number 12, which is the CFA's -- 2 one of their choices -- I guess I'd prefer that one 3 more than number eight, even though her arm is raised. 4 I think this is kind of an interesting look at her. 5 my choices for obverse is definitely number one and 6 possibly eight or 12. For reverse, I have to agree with what's being 7 8 said. 9 it is an idea, and I complement the artist on The lightbulb is not the first U.S. patent. But 10 presenting that idea to us. 11 behind number 14, although I would not vote for it. 12 So I very much like the idea But I think the fact that there is something 13 astir chemically with the potash and fertilizer. 14 chemist, someone working with glazes and patinas, it's 15 interesting to see how the artist interpreted that 16 first patent. 17 As a So again, kudos to whoever did that. For reverse 13, with so much information, yes, 18 it will be a good medal. 19 going to just absolutely lose it to the frosting and 20 the incused letters. 21 22 But I think as a coin, we're So now, for me, I think I'm going to have to probably go behind one of the gears and that would 1 probably be number eight because it is dynamic. I 2 think it's going to strike up nicely. 3 boring. 4 obverse number one, I think we'd have a great coin and 5 a great medal. It won't be So if we paired that with the very exciting Thank you, Madam Chair. 6 MS. LANNIN: 7 MR. MORAN: Thanks, Jeanne. First, let me make a general 8 observation as to how I approached this. To me, 9 innovation leads to enlightenment and progress. 10 Without innovation, you won't get enlightenment or 11 progress. 12 So when I looked at the obverses, I was 13 looking at the images that employed the torch, and not 14 a partial torch, but the full torch because, to me, 15 that is the central point here. 16 Even though the legislation mandates Liberty, 17 to me, the torch is the enlightenment and that's what 18 I'm looking for. 19 The second thing I did in judging the obverses 20 is the Statue of Liberty is a monumental sculpture. 21 And in order for a monumental sculpture to be 22 successful, certain features have to be exaggerated in 1 order for the sculpture to be a success when viewed 2 from a distance, which is what its intent is. So you can get too close to the Statue of 3 4 Liberty and result in a not so good representation. 5 And to me, number 11 is exactly what happens when you 6 do that. 7 So I threw that one out. The other thing that I'm looking for is the 8 design does not have to be cutting edge. 9 it's going to be here for 14 years, it has to stand the 10 But because test of time. 11 I'll give you an example of one that I think 12 fails that and that when we cut away from the profile 13 bust of Thomas Jefferson on the nickel, the 14 alternatives don’t work. 15 So we're looking for something that is more 16 traditional, that won't compete with the individual 17 designs that are to come on the reverse. 18 throwing out the edgier ones and I'm throwing out any 19 of them that don’t have the complete torch. 20 So I'm So the two that I felt were most indicative of 21 what I wanted to see were number eight. 22 my breath on this one for one thing. But I caught 1 I like the negative space. When you see the 2 Gobrecht dollar, the original one from 1836, there's 3 nothing on the front except the date and you see the 4 Liberty. 5 that regard. 6 This is close to it. And it's really good in What troubles me is the creative use of the 7 grayscale here to highlight the face and the profile of 8 the face, which I'm afraid when we strike it up will be 9 obliterated by the arm, or hidden by the arm. 10 I don’t know if obliterated. 11 On the other hand, I'm reminded this is a 12 collector piece. 13 And the Mint very well could separate the two by 14 relief. 15 It's not going to be mass produced. The other one that I like in particular, even 16 though it's a bit up your nose -- Heidi, if you're 17 awake -- is number 12. 18 But no, it's not inappropriate because it is what I'm 19 talking about, innovation here. 20 enlightenment. 21 22 Yes, the torch is outsized. And this is So I really can handle this because it's not a full frontal on the Liberty, the exaggerated features 1 that the sculptor used in creating the work are not as 2 readily apparent. 3 two and splitting my votes. 4 So I'm going to be looking at those On the reverse, there's some I still can't 5 stand. 6 just -- it got me back in July and I just can't get 7 there. 8 one innovation here that I think needs to be pointed 9 out to us and that's on number 14. 10 Number one is one of them. I'm sorry. That's Jumping around, sorry about that, we do have That's a two-legged pot, guys. 11 MR. JANSEN: 12 MR. MORAN: 13 No way. 14 this. 15 Yeah, it has no legs to stand on. It's gone. Thirteen, trade token. That's not -- don’t start the series with To me, one of the absolute best designs I've 16 seen in terms of out of the box is number eight. 17 at that. 18 take United States of America and put it in a band 19 across the coin like that as a divider. 20 They use the incused, raised relief. We haven't seen that before. Look They That really 21 needs to be recognized as out of the box thinking, 22 really good and a great kickoff. To me, the gears 1 represent progress. You have the symbol of the U.S. 2 Patent Office there. 3 MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Michael. 4 MR. TUCKER: May I borrow this? 5 MS. LANNIN: Oh, absolutely. 6 MR. TUCKER: Thanks. I think it just plain works. Dennis? Mike, I feel like you 7 and I must have been -- our brains were just connected 8 while we were looking through this portfolio because 9 your -- what you just said matches my notes very -- 10 MR. MORAN: 11 MR. TUCKER: Thank you. -- almost exactly. As I was 12 looking at the obverses, I too was struck. I wrote 13 down in my notes here enlightenment is necessary for 14 innovation. 15 American Innovation Program. And this design of course is for the 16 So the symbolism is precisely wrong if the 17 torch of enlightenment is missing or only partially 18 there with the flame cut off. 19 So to me, any of the designs that show the 20 torch of enlightenment either missing or only partially 21 there with the flame extinguished are unacceptable. 22 that leaves obverses two, three, eight, 10 and 12. So 1 Number eight stuck out at me for all the same 2 reasons that you mentioned. It has numismatic 3 precedent. 4 early in the nation's history in the early 1800s. 5 understand what you're saying about the design 6 challenges with number eight. It's evocative of certain designs we saw I 7 Really my favorite was in obverse 12, which is 8 very -- you could say it's similar to what Don Everhart 9 did with the reverse of the presidential dollar 10 program. 11 thing. 12 But I don’t think that's necessarily a bad I mean, it's an interesting, innovative view. 13 And because of that foreshortening, it really 14 dramatically emphasizes the aspect of enlightenment. 15 So to me, obverse 12 is a very strong contender and 16 it's the strongest in this series. 17 For the reverses, I liked number three's 18 unusual and interesting use of typography. 19 think that makes it strong enough to be the best in 20 this portfolio. 21 that that's a good use of typography. 22 I don’t But I did want to mention that I think And within these designs, I think the best 1 ones are the ones that incorporate the words "Signed 2 First Patent" because that really is going to give -- 3 that's going to give the viewer some context that 4 they're going to lack if they don’t have that. 5 know, you've got the signature of George Washington. 6 But it doesn't really -- it doesn't really give -- that 7 doesn't give you the context of what this program is 8 about. You Number six, I had a problem with the way the 9 10 words "united" and "states" are separated. 11 that's problematic when you're referring to the United 12 States as a union, although I do like the gear concept. 13 So all of the ones with gears I found appealing. 14 I think And for me, it was kind of a tossup between 15 five and eight. 16 eight I thought was the strongest, except for one 17 weakness. 18 tilted lettering. 19 I think five has a nice balance. But You know, I love the dynamic energy of the I think that's wonderful. My only problem with it was I was wondering if 20 the emblem of the Patent Office would be too small for 21 coinage, especially on a coin that's only a little bit 22 more than an inch in diameter. 1 MR. MORAN: 2 MR. TUCKER: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that would be the only thing 3 that would lead me to dismiss this design, which is 4 otherwise very engaging. 5 committee members talk about it, if our team doesn't 6 think that -- that that's too small, then my strong 7 vote would go for number eight, otherwise number five. 8 9 10 MS. LANNIN: But since I've heard other Thank you, Dennis. It must be something in the water at this end of the table because I agree with both Mike and Dennis. 11 I like number one on the obverse. I think we 12 should keep that, but not necessarily for this program. 13 I do like number 12, what the CFA has chosen as one of 14 their selections. 15 I agree with what Dennis said. 16 ideas. 17 think is really very important. 18 negative space there. 19 beautiful design. 20 This is about And so, to have the torch be so outsized I There's a lot of I think that that's a really When it comes to the reverses, I too like all 21 of the gears. And again, my question would be the same 22 as Dennis' on number eight. Is the symbol of the 1 Patent Office too small? To me, it kind of looks like a merit badge, 2 3 you know, for something. 4 I really like about this besides the United States 5 going across at an angle is that none of the gears 6 touch each other, which to me is a swirling of ideas. 7 These are individual ideas. 8 together. 9 innovative. 10 11 It's a little tiny. They're not locked And so, that's what makes America so Everybody's got an idea about how to do something. So I think that number eight is going to coin 12 really well. 13 the Patent Office symbol. 14 with number 12 and with number eight. The question is to Ron and company about 15 MS. WASTWEET: 16 MS. LANNIN: 17 MS. WASTWEET: 18 But what But I would definitely go Mary, can I comment on your -Sure. When I see that little badge there, I kind of think of a privy mark that you can -- 19 MS. LANNIN: 20 MS. WASTWEET: Okay. -- you know, quite a detailed 21 image into a privy mark because it's not necessarily 22 vital to the overall design -- 1 MS. LANNIN: Okay. 2 MS. WASTWEET: -- to see that in detail. 3 MR. SCARINCI: Can we make it a privy mark? 4 MS. LANNIN: Oh, you're giving Donald ideas, 5 Heidi. 6 else would you like to comment on? 7 He wants to make it a privy mark. MR. SCARINCI: Donald, what Thank you, Heidi. That solves everybody's 8 problem. 9 that were a privy mark, we've never done a privy mark 10 11 I mean, Heidi -- oops, Heidi just hit it. If before. We've talked about it once before in doing a 12 privy mark on the platinum series. 13 never did it because that would have hurt the series. 14 I mean, people collect that as a series. 15 MS. LANNIN: 16 MR. SCARINCI: But thank God we Okay. Right? So if you do platinum, 17 that would have interfered with the series. 18 interesting. 19 nothing in the legislation that says we can't do a 20 privy mark. 21 22 This is If we did a privy mark -- and there's And I bet you -- and I bet you they'd love it because it's innovative. And so, we do a privy mark. 1 We turn this into a -- we turn that little thing into a 2 privy mark. MR. TUCKER: Could you define that for the 5 MS. LANNIN: And it's find the privy mark. 6 MR. SCARINCI: 7 MR. TUCKER: 3 4 8 9 10 11 12 record? record. Define privy mark? Yeah, because this will be on the Not everybody's going to know what that means. MR. SCARINCI: MR. TUCKER: Uh -Different -- what the design element -MR. SCARINCI: Go ahead. It's traditionally - 13 - its' traditionally, you know, done to define the 14 location or any special feature of the -- 15 16 17 18 MS. LANNIN: It's an identifier. It's like a mint mark. MS. WASTWEET: mint mark, right. -- of the coin. Kind of like a But privy mark -- 19 MR. TUCKER: 20 MR. SCARINCI: So the mint -But if we make this a privy 21 mark, we could put this on every coin. 22 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes. 1 MR. TUCKER: To define the coin. 2 MS. LANNIN: So who is -- somebody's going to 3 help me with this because my mind is going. 4 famous cartoonist from The New Yorker who's now dead, 5 but everybody turned to his cartoons because somewhere 6 quotes his privy mark was the name Nina, his daughter. 7 MS. WASTWEET: 8 MR. WEINMAN: 9 MS. LANNIN: 10 MR. WEINMAN: 11 MS. LANNIN: Who is the Hirschfeld. Hirschfeld. Hirschfeld, that's it. He used his daughter's name. And so, Heidi, this is really 12 good. 13 each of the coins for the next 56 coins would link the 14 whole series together and be really interesting. 15 sort of our "Where's Waldo", right? 16 So this as a privy mark, finding it somewhere in MR. SCARINCI: Right. It's It makes a blind series 17 kind of interesting. 18 MS. LANNIN: Yeah. 19 MR. TUCKER: I like -- I like the idea of a 20 privy mark and hiding -- 21 22 MS. LANNIN: here. Not hiding it, but just it's 1 MR. TUCKER: well, or incorporating. But I 2 would just wonder if the Patent Office emblem is the 3 appropriate symbol because, as we've discussed in the 4 past, not every innovation is an invention, right? 5 every -- not every innovation -- 6 MS. LANNIN: The swirling of good ideas. 7 MR. TUCKER: No, no. Not I like the idea of a 8 privy mark. 9 does not necessarily embody and sum up every American 10 I'm just saying that the Patent Office innovation. 11 Innovations can be -- they can be nonphysical. 12 They can be -- they can be mental, emotional, cultural, 13 intellectual. 14 15 MR. JANSEN: They aren't necessarily going to be patented ideas. 16 MR. TUCKER: Right. Objects or machines or -- 17 MR. JANSEN: Right. 18 MS. LANNIN: Why don’t we meet you halfway and 19 say everything that could be patented has this privy 20 mark or was patented? 21 22 MR. JANSEN: I'll put another idea out there. And it falls back on a technical issue of administering 1 what's in this code. This code calls out edge lettering. 2 3 out incused edge lettering. 4 Pluribus Unum", the date and a Mint mark. It calls And it calls out "E Now, historically that's not been enough stuff 5 6 to get a coin to go through a Schuler machine. 7 you've always embedded some stars or some other tactile 8 piece of the die to run it through, right, Ron? 9 Extended blank space on the Schuler die is a problem. 10 MR. HARRIGAL: Yeah. I mean, yeah, we fill -- 11 we fill it where we need to -- 12 MR. JANSEN: 13 MR. HARRIGAL: 14 15 And so, Yeah. -- so that it continues the design. MR. JANSEN: And so, I might -- I might say 16 could we fill it instead of with a star or with a 17 circle, as you've historically done on the presidential 18 dollars, fill it with a shield? 19 MR. HARRIGAL: I think the one challenge on 20 this would be to get the detail to make it actually 21 look like the symbol -- 22 MR. JANSEN: Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate that. 1 MR. HARRIGAL: -- at that size. I mean, 2 you're looking at like, you know, the old typewriters. 3 You know, like one of the keys. 4 of -- 5 MR. JANSEN: 6 MR. HARRIGAL: 7 MR. JANSEN: 8 MR. HARRIGAL: 9 That's about the size Yeah. -- the entire emblem. Yeah. So I don’t think you'd get the detail on the edge. 10 MR. JANSEN: Okay. 11 MS. LANNIN: But it could just be that shape, 12 13 14 Ron. It wouldn't have to be anything -MR. JANSEN: Yeah. We're not looking for any internal detail, just -- 15 MS. LANNIN: Just a shield outline. 16 MR. JANSEN: -- the shield shape. 17 MR. HARRIGAL: 18 detail on the inner part of it. 19 silhouette. I don’t think you'd get the 20 MS. LANNIN: No. 21 MR. JANSEN: No, no. 22 an outline. You'd get the Nothing. It'd be blank. We're only looking for 1 MS. LANNIN: 2 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 3 MS. LANNIN: 4 MR. HARRIGAL: 5 yeah. 6 whatever. Just the outline of a shield. Like a badge. Like a badge, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's fine, Just like -- just like a star or a badge or 7 MS. LANNIN: Exactly. 8 MR. JANSEN: Yeah. 9 MR. HARRIGAL: 10 MR. URAM: Exactly. Yeah, you could get that. The other thing would be, you know, 11 that it all came about with the Franklin half dollar 12 where we had to have an eagle -- 13 MR. JANSEN: 14 MR. URAM: The eagle, yeah. -- on the half. 15 it's very well-defined. 16 either. 17 And, you know, I mean, it's not that large And it made it for that -- whether you want to 18 run it through the whole series or something, I'm not 19 so sure. 20 But I think it's appropriate for this device. MS. LANNIN: So okay, so for Dennis' idea, 21 that in case we get to a state that wants to patent an 22 idea or -- 1 MR. TUCKER: Not patent. 2 MS. LANNIN: Well, I mean use for their -- 3 MR. TUCKER: Or honor -- 4 MS. LANNIN: Honor an idea. 5 use? 6 series -- 7 What would we If this is, in quotes, our "gimmick" for this MR. TUCKER: Well, we mentioned the gear 8 maybe. I mean, we've talked a lot about gears. 9 again, the more I think about that, again, that gets 10 back to mechanics and machinery. 11 might be a bit limiting. 12 But And I think even that And also do we -- do we want to limit our 13 artists by giving them more things that they need to 14 incorporate into the design? 15 MS. STAFFORD: So just a comment on the gears, 16 the CFA actually spoke to the gears and thought that 17 because not all innovation was necessarily an invention 18 or mechanical, that perhaps that was a bridge too far 19 to represent innovation. 20 However, I hear this committee saying they see 21 the note of progress and industry and innovation and -- 22 MS. LANNIN: Multiple ideas. 1 MS. STAFFORD: -- and it being more 2 representative. So simply what Dennis was referring to 3 is when -- Mr. Scarinci, you were talking about privy 4 mark and if the Patent Office bas relief doesn't work 5 because of its intricacy or it's too close to an actual 6 invention that has been literally patented. We just were having a conversation over here 7 8 saying perhaps that gear symbol extends throughout as a 9 privy mark solely representative of innovation, 10 industry, progress and that moving forward symbol -- 11 symbolically rather than literally. 12 to close that loop. MS. LANNIN: 13 So we just wanted So the privy mark wouldn't -- on 14 this coin then we're saying that the reverse could 15 include the patent symbol. 16 quote, "privy mark" somewhere would be a small gear. 17 MR. SCARINCI: But on future coins, our, Well, I mean, let's see what we 18 can do with this as a privy mark and see what it looks 19 like. 20 21 22 MS. LANNIN: So you're saying make it smaller or make it that size? MR. SCARINCI: Make it smaller. Make it 1 smaller. 2 MR. JANSEN: 3 MR. HARRIGAL: Oh -I mean, yeah, when you look at 4 like what the Canadians have done with their Maple 5 Leaf, they made it real small. 6 maple leaf. 7 It's recognizable as a It would be a graphical element like that. But you would see the outline of the symbol 8 and you'd see probably a silhouette of the image on it. 9 But it would be recognizable and a tie-in through the 10 whole series if you wanted us to do it. 11 You could make it probably about as small as 12 the lettering across the bottom there and still make it 13 recognizable. 14 MS. LANNIN: Okay. 15 MR. JANSEN: Well, and -- 16 MR. SCARINCI: And, you know, I'm sitting here 17 thinking about innovation in general and I'm trying to 18 think of an innovation that is not patented. 19 that? And if there's anything -- 20 MR. JANSEN: 21 MR. SCARINCI: 22 What is Religious freedom. And if there is an innovation that is not patented, then why are we emphasizing 1 patents here? MR. HARRIGAL: 2 3 Donald, that company wouldn't be in business anymore if they didn't patent it. 4 MR. SCARINCI: They have to patent it. 5 MR. HARRIGAL: What I'm saying is like if you 6 have an innovation that's innovative and you don’t 7 patent it, you probably wouldn't be in business very 8 long. 9 MR. SCARINCI: 10 MS. LANNIN: Right. Right. Even though there could be an 11 idea. I'm guessing that the governors of the states 12 are going to want a thing, a thing that's patented. 13 MR. JANSEN: I'm not sure that's necessarily 14 possible. 15 registered, for instance, in American Samoa. 16 I'm not sure there are patents that are MR. TUCKER: And why constrain them? Why? 17 Why should we constrain our artists, anticipating what 18 the governors of the states -- 19 MR. JANSEN: 20 MR. SCARINCI: 21 that's not patented? 22 MR. JANSEN: Our -Well, what's an innovation It could be a trade secret. It 1 could be a cultural standard. 2 MR. SCARINCI: 3 MR. JANSEN: 4 MR. SCARINCI: 5 It could be all kinds of things. -- then we're not going to put it on a coin. 6 MR. JANSEN: 7 MR. SCARINCI: 8 Yeah, but -- Why not? You wouldn't put a trade secret on a coin. 9 MR. JANSEN: Well, I'll give you an example. 10 MS. LANNIN: says the lawyer. 11 MR. JANSEN: I'll give you an example. I kind 12 of thought through this. When it comes to -- and not 13 to single out, but when it comes to one of the Pacific 14 territories, we might choose travel by the stars -- 15 MS. LANNIN: Like a turtle. 16 MR. JANSEN: -- an innovation of their time. 17 18 I daresay the patent system was around. MS. SULLIVAN: One example I've been throwing 19 out when I'm talking to governors' offices is just -- 20 to get them to think outside the box is, you know, jazz 21 music, the Harlem Renaissance, all of these general 22 ideas that are -- 1 MR. JANSEN: 2 MS. SULLIVAN: Right. I mean, nobody's going to argue 3 with me that jazz is not innovative. 4 patented either. MR. JANSEN: 5 But it's not Perhaps I can advance this and 6 defer the discussion so we can move on here. 7 not going to at some point in the future discuss the 8 standard layouts of this series, much as the perimeter 9 standards were established for the ATB quarters and so 10 Are we forth? 11 And in that discussion, perhaps we could put 12 the thought out here, if the design carries a patent, 13 the rim gets this or the perimeter -- the standard 14 template gets this for those that want to collect by 15 patent number. 16 MS. LANNIN: 17 MR. SCARINCI: Oh, that's interesting. But I'm sorry. If it's not -- 18 if we're going to do coins that are not patented, then 19 why is Congress telling us the first coin has to be 20 about the Patent Act? 21 MR. JANSEN: 22 MR. SCARINCI: Because that's what they told us. Isn't that -- wouldn't that be 1 their intention in this series, to -- innovations that 2 are patented -MR. JANSEN: 3 4 No, I think you're thinking of innovation far too narrowly. MR. SCARINCI: 5 But then why are they telling 6 us -- I guess I'm reading this like a lawyer. 7 know, why are they telling us that the first coin has 8 to be about George Washington's signature with the 9 Patent Act if -- 10 11 12 13 14 MR. JANSEN: You Are you questioning the wisdom of Congress? MR. SCARINCI: No, no, no. I'm questioning their intent, the legislative intent, right? Wouldn't the legislative intent be if they're 15 mandating that the first -- if they're mandating the 16 first coin has to be the Patent Act with George 17 Washington's signature, then why are they doing that if 18 every coin is not about a patented innovation? 19 MR. JANSEN: 20 MR. SCARINCI: 21 MR. JANSEN: 22 I don’t know -It doesn't make sense. -- that any patents have stemmed from Guam, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, for that 1 matter, Puerto Rico -- 2 MR. SCARINCI: 3 MR. JANSEN: 4 I'm sure there have. -- or the Commonwealth of the North Marianas. 5 MR. SCARINCI: I'm sure there have. 6 Everybody's got patents. 7 I don’t know. 8 mean, what's the intent of the legislation? 9 There's tons of patents. I mean, why would Congress do that? But I Is it to -- you know, jazz certainly is an 10 innovation. But is it the type of innovation that 11 Congress has in mind to be commemorated on this series, 12 given their statement that this first coin has to be a 13 patented -- 14 MS. LANNIN: Yeah. 15 MR. JANSEN: It's such a -- 16 MS. LANNIN: No. 17 MR. SCARINCI: 18 MR. JANSEN: Why not? It's such a clear idea, that if 19 they intended that, I think it would have been in the 20 text. 21 MR. SCARINCI: 22 MR. JANSEN: It's not in the text. And it's not in the text. 1 2 MR. TUCKER: Donald, why are we focusing on the patent -MR. WEINMAN: 3 The particular legislation -- to 4 some extent, as the executive branch, we take the 5 legislation as we receive it. 6 MR. SCARINCI: 7 MR. WEINMAN: Right, and it doesn't -And you're right. Sometimes, 8 you're right, some pieces of legislation do in fact 9 have a bunch of whereas provisions upfront where they 10 do explain it. 11 legislation does not. 12 This one -- this particular piece of MR. TUCKER: The first coin also features the 13 signature of George Washington. So maybe that's what 14 we should focus on. 15 patent aspect but the first aspect. 16 president. 17 cetera. The important thing is not the He was our first You know, the father of the nation, et 18 So you know what I'm saying? Don’t read too 19 much into what's been legislated and constrain 20 ourselves and restrict our artists in the future to 21 just things that have been patented. 22 too narrow, too narrow. I think that's 1 MR. SCARINCI: Yeah. Okay. 2 doesn't say it, it doesn't say it. 3 say it -- 4 MR. TUCKER: 5 MR. SCARINCI: 6 MR. JANSEN: 7 MR. SCARINCI: 8 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 9 If it If Congress doesn't Right. Is that me? No, you're fine. Oh, are we voting? I don’t know. Are we voting? 10 11 Okay. MR. SCARINCI: No. I don’t think we're voting. 12 MS. LANNIN: 13 minds are twirling. 14 and -- Any further discussion? Our I think I like the privy mark idea 15 MR. TUCKER: Can I -- 16 MS. LANNIN: Sure. 17 MR. TUCKER: I just have -- I'm sorry. One 18 other thing, I would not limit it is actually -- I 19 wouldn't want to see this program setting up a template 20 where you have to have United States of America and the 21 name of a state or territory in certain places. 22 the fact that we've -- I like 1 MR. SCARINCI: 2 MR. TUCKER: No template. -- got a lot of creativity, 3 creative potential here. I would not want to see that 4 constrained. 5 artists work their magic. And I think it will be nice to let our 6 MS. WASTWEET: 7 MR. MORAN: 8 MS. LANNIN: 9 MR. MORAN: I agree. Can I make one last comment, Mary? Sure. I think we need to let the privy 10 mark idea go here because it will take up space in the 11 future designs and really doesn't bring enough to the 12 table and just get on with it here. 13 I would say, and I think this would work, if 14 you want a use for a privy mark, use it for the one 15 ounce, 0.9995 that we stick all of our coins with that 16 come out of here, the same with a half-ounce or a 17 quarter ounce. 18 That's where it belongs. Put it there and do 19 away with that inscription because it'll still work in 20 the market. 21 trying to fuzz up the future. 22 as an idea that has a better application somewhere But here, I think we're unnecessarily And we need to let it go 1 else. 2 MR. SCARINCI: 3 MS. LANNIN: 4 MR. SCARINCI: 5 MS. LANNIN: Okay. All right. Thank you very much. It's Heidi's fault. It's Heidi's fault. 6 Thanks, Heidi. 7 we are going to take a 10-minute recess. 8 9 All right. MR. WEINMAN: Yeah. We are going to vote. And And Heidi -- Heidi and Robert, please send me your tallies here. 10 MR. JANSEN: Thank you, ma'am. 11 (Whereupon, the foregoing went off the record 12 at 2:18 p.m., and went back on the record at 13 2:29 p.m.) 14 MS. LANNIN: All right. We are back from our 15 short break, and I am going to ask Greg to read the 16 totals for the obverse and reverse for the new series 17 of American innovators. 18 MR. WEINMAN: Greg? We'll start with the obverse. 19 Obverse one has 15 votes. 20 Obverse three has zero. 21 Obverse five has one. 22 seven has two. Obverse two has two. Obverse four has zero. Obverse six has two. Obverse 1 Obverse eight has 18, which is the highest 2 number. 3 Obverse 11 has one. 4 that received the required number of votes would be 5 number eight, followed by number one. 6 Obverse nine has one. And obverse 12 has 14. Reverse two has six. 8 four has 14. 9 four. Reverse three has seven. Reverse five has four. Reverse seven has seven. 10 MR. TUCKER: 11 MR. WEINMAN: 12 zero. 13 one. 14 number eight. Reverse six has Reverse eight has 29. Reverse nine has zero. Eleven has zero. Fourteen, zero. Twelve has zero. Ten has Thirteen has So the reverses that -- was MS. LANNIN: 16 MR. MORAN: 17 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 20 Reverse Wow. 15 19 The two For the reverse, reverse one has three. 7 18 Obverse 10 has one. Okay. So any further discussion? That was a good decision. I mean, no -- oh, do we -MR. SCARINCI: one carried. If we -- if we do -- so obverse Obverse -- 21 MR. WEINMAN: 22 MR. SCARINCI: Obverse one received 15. Obverse eight. 1 2 MR. WEINMAN: second choice. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 3 4 MR. SCARINCI: that won. So obverse eight is the one So -- 7 MR. MORAN: 8 MR. WEINMAN: 9 So do you mean to tell me -- 5 6 The requisite number, but your I don’t like that one. Obverse eight received your most votes. 10 MR. SCARINCI: What do people think about the 11 placement of "In God We Trust" like -- 12 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 13 talk.) 14 I voted for this. MR. SCARINCI: Yes. I did too. (Cross I voted for that. -- kind of in the underarm of 15 Liberty? You know, should it be smaller and lower or 16 should it be more around the right rim somewhere? 17 MR. JANSEN: 18 MR. SCARINCI: Right rim. I mean, and smaller? I mean, 19 it doesn't need to be that large and it certainly just 20 doesn't seem like it looks right under the underarm of 21 Liberty, no? 22 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I don’t like this 1 underarm thing. 2 MR. SCARINCI: No. 3 MR. JANSEN: And -- and -- 4 MS. LANNIN: What if -- 5 MR. SCARINCI: We have to put it somewhere 6 else or do something with it. 7 MS. LANNIN: 8 What if $1 slid down to let's say the 8 o'clock position, fairly center -- 9 MR. JANSEN: And? 10 MS. LANNIN: And "In God We Trust" stacked 11 exactly the way it is now is at the 2 o'clock position? 12 So they'd just be diagonal. 13 14 MR. SCARINCI: 17 18 MS. LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: Could we make -- I mean, I kind of like the negative space. MS. LANNIN: 20 MR. SCARINCI: 22 Yeah, the other side, for balance. 19 21 Oh, put it on the other side there? 15 16 Two o'clock. That's the only thing I -- Oh, okay. Honestly the only thing I like about this design is the negative space on it. MS. WASTWEET: I agree. 1 MR. SCARINCI: But if we -- but what if we put 2 the "In God We Trust" smaller, down a little further 3 and then put the dollar down a little further and then 4 had more negative space everywhere else? Like let's not take up the negative space. 5 6 Let's use the negative space. 7 MR. JANSEN: 8 9 the edge? Could you even put the dollar on I mean, I'm not a big edge person at all. MR. MORAN: The perimeter -- 10 MR. JANSEN: On the edge, yeah, so as in 11 conforming with the perimeter. 12 MR. MORAN: It's like -- 13 MR. VIOLA: With all the other information 14 15 16 that's on there. MR. MORAN: the obverse. -- because the dollar has to be on It's in the legislation. 17 MR. SCARINCI: Oh, it's in the legislation. 18 MR. VIOLA: Well -- 19 MR. MORAN: But my suggestion on this would be 20 to obviously shrink the "In God We Trust". 21 keep Liberty's vision clear. 22 the dollar and the symbol behind her. We need to And I would probably put 1 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 2 MR. TUCKER: 3 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: No, if she -- I agree with that, Mike. If you have the dollar 4 which she's looking at, do we want her looking at the 5 dollar? 6 MR. SCARINCI: 7 MS. LANNIN: 8 Maybe move the dollar up a little bit and shrinking "In God We Trust" can be lower. 9 10 I -- MR. SCARINCI: has it. Wait. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 12 MR. MORAN: 16 17 He's close. That's something for Donald to say that. 14 15 Mike had -- Mie He's close. 11 13 Wait. MR. SCARINCI: "In God We Trust" goes down, right? MS. LANNIN: Let the record show that Donald has left his seat and is pointing at things. 18 FEMALE: Is the microphone going to -- 19 MR. SCARINCI: "In God We Trust" can be 20 shrunken and put down here and how about the dollar 21 goes over here? 22 MS. LANNIN: Yes. 1 MR. VIOLA: That’s it. 2 MR. MORAN: Exactly. 3 MR. VIOLA: That’s it. 4 MR. WEINMAN: 5 Yeah, but Donald -- Donald, use a microphone. 6 MR. SCARINCI: 7 MR. WEINMAN: 8 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 9 MR. SCARINCI: 10 MR. JANSEN: Right. This way -- this way -- -- so that she can hear you. No one can hear you. How? Go ahead. 11 and write on the screen, Donald. 12 MR. SCARINCI: Give him a dry maker Because then, then what we have 13 is, you know, we've got the one asset of this coin, the 14 one asset of this coin is the negative space. 15 So take this, put it here. 16 small, put it here to balance it. 17 beautiful negative space on top. 18 19 MR. JANSEN: And then, keep this With the enlightenment of the torch the feature. 20 MR. SCARINCI: 21 MS. LANNIN: 22 Take this, make it Donald? Correct. So would you like to a motion, 1 MR. SCARINCI: 2 MR. MORAN: 3 MS. LANNIN: 4 Yeah. I'll second it. Okay. All in favor of Donald's motion, say aye. 5 (Chorus of ayes.) 6 MS. LANNIN: 7 I'll make that motion. All opposed? I'm going to say 10 to zero. 8 MR. JANSEN: 9 MR. SCARINCI: Good job. 10 MS. LANNIN: 11 MR. SCARINCI: Good. Thank you, Donald. No. just articulated it. 13 MS. LANNIN: 14 MS. STAFFORD: 15 MS. LANNIN: 16 to talk about for the reverse? 17 MR. WEINMAN: 18 MR. MORAN: Thank you, Michael. Any comment on the reverse? Any other comments that we need Ready for a motion. Wait a minute. I've got a question. 20 MS. LANNIN: 21 MR. MORAN: 22 Good job. No, it was Mike's idea. 12 19 Motion carries. Sure. We go to that reverse, do we have to have that shield around the Patent Office symbol? I 1 MS. LANNIN: 2 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 3 MR. TUCKER: Yes. 4 MR. JANSEN: The shield is the patent office MR. TUCKER: That's what it is. 5 10 11 MR. MORAN: All right. MR. TUCKER: Otherwise, it really would be a privy mark. MS. LANNIN: 13 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 14 MR. SCARINCI: 16 Then I have no more comments. 12 15 Yeah, that's what it is. 8 9 Yes. symbol. 6 7 Yes. All right. Okay. Now, for the next quarter, privy marks. MR. JANSEN: I have one question before we 17 adjourn, Mary. 18 even if it's a discussion of no standards, are we going 19 to address at any point in a future meeting a standard 20 template issue for the next 14 years of these 21 innovation dollars? 22 Are we going to as a committee address, MS. LANNIN: I would like to think that we 1 would. It's a good question. MS. STAFFORD: 2 Yes, we are. Yes. We actually 3 discussed that in our administrative meeting this 4 morning. 5 MR. JANSEN: 6 MS. STAFFORD: 7 MR. JANSEN: 8 MS. STAFFORD: 9 I thought I heard that. Yes. I just wanted to hear it. And I think given the discussion here today about potential devices to 10 connect the 14 other years of the program, we should 11 have that at either our next meeting or the November 12 meeting, yes. 13 MR. MORAN: Since I feel we have maybe five 14 minutes here, on the $100 gold coin and on the silver 15 medal, have we ever thought of doing a privy mark for 16 those weights and fineness? 17 And I would just say that for a one ounce, a 18 shield with a letter one about it. 19 be a shield and a two. 20 0.999 and it gets rid of that damned inscription, which 21 is ugly. 22 MR. SCARINCI: A half-ounce would And the shield represents the Mike, I think -- oops, Mike, I 1 think the privy mark might be the way to go with this 2 series. 3 It gives it something special. And if in fact the secretary agrees with us 4 that we use the gears, then the gears could be the 5 privy mark, right, as our theme. 6 design, we use the gears as a privy mark. 7 this series special. 8 9 And somewhere in each It makes And if I recall correctly, and I don’t know if you're still on the phone, Bob, but historically, 10 right, the privy mark was a symbol of something special 11 about a coin. 12 was -- historically. 13 It was struck for a king, you know, it So this series is really not going to 14 circulate. 15 designed, you know, as a collector series really. 16 We've never done that before. 17 It's got -- you know, it's really being It's the first time we're doing that. So a 18 privy mark is perfectly appropriate historically. 19 would make sense. 20 MR. MORAN: It Well, I agree with that on this 21 because that's one of the big criticisms from the 22 collector community is that the date is on the rim. 1 And when you get it certified, it's gone. 2 MR. SCARINCI: 3 MR. MORAN: It's gone. Yeah, and that's probably one way 4 we can finesse that and satisfy the collectors for 5 putting a privy mark in each year -- 6 MR. SCARINCI: Yeah. 7 MR. MORAN: -- that they can recognize. 8 doesn't have to be big at all. 9 MR. WEINMAN: 10 11 It shouldn’t be big. Interesting thought. MR. SCARINCI: Interesting thought. Makes it -- 12 13 It MR. MORAN: obverse. 14 We could even put that one on the Doesn't have to be on the reverse. MS. LANNIN: Before you all disappear, I need 15 a vote. Our next meeting is October 16th. 16 have no further business, would someone make a motion 17 to adjourn? 18 MR. VIOLA: 19 MS. LANNIN: 20 So if we I make the motion. All right, Herman. Anybody second? 21 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I'll second. 22 MS. LANNIN: All in favor? Jeanne. 1 (Chorus of ayes.) 2 MS. LANNIN: See you in October. 3 4 (Whereupon, at 2:38 p.m., the meeting was 5 concluded.) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 * * * * * 1 2 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, NATALIA THOMAS, the officer before whom the 3 foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby certify that 4 the proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter 5 reduced to typewriting under my direction; that said 6 proceedings are a true and accurate record to the best 7 of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither 8 counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the 9 parties to the action in which this was taken; and, 10 further, that I am not a relative or employee of any 11 counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor 12 financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of 13 this action. 14 15 16 17 NATALIA THOMAS 18 Notary Public in and for the 19 District of Columbia 20 21 22 1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER 2 3 I, BENJAMIN GRAHAM, do hereby certify that this 4 transcript was prepared from audio to the best of my 5 ability. 6 7 I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed 8 by any of the parties to this action, nor financially 9 or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. 10 11 The picture can't be displayed. 12 13 14 October 14, 2018 15 DATE 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 ___________________ Benjamin Graham