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Meeting September 23, 2020 1 CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE _________________________________ CCAC PUBLIC MEETING DAY 2 _________________________________ DATE: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 TIME: 8:36 a.m. LOCATION: Telephonic Meeting Washington, DC 20005 REPORTED BY: Andrew Adams, Notary Public JOB NO.: 4228607 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 2 A P P E A R A N C E S Tom Uram (CHAIRMAN)-CCAC Robin Salmon-CCAC Mary Lannin-CCAC Sam Gill-CCAC Dr. Lawrence Brown-CCAC Donald Scarinci-CCAC Mike Moran-CCAC Dr. Dean Kotlowski-CCAC Dennis Tucker-CCAC Dr. Peter van Alfen-CCAC Jeanne Stevens-Sollman-CCAC Jennifer Warren-Mint (CCAC Liaison) Greg Weinman-Mint (CCAC Counsel) April Stafford-Mint (ODM) Megan Sullivan-Mint (ODM; Design Manager) Boneza Hanchock-Mint (ODM; Design Manager) Pam Borer-Mint (ODM; Design Manager) Roger Vasquez-Mint (ODM; Design Manager) Russell Evans-Mint (ODM; Design Manager) Joe Menna-Mint (Chief Engraver) Ron Harrigal-Mint (Design and Engraving) www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 3 A P P E A R A N C E S (cont.) Betty Birdsong-Mint (Deputy Director OLIA) Marcia Ferranto-Liaison (National Law Enforcement Memorial and Museum) Margaret Mullins-Liaison (National Law Enforcement Memorial and Museum) Leonard Vaughan-Liaison/family (Dorothy J. Vaughan) Ann Hammond-Liaison/family (Dorothy J. Vaughan) Wanda Jackson- Liaison/family (Mary Jackson) Dr. Brian C. Odom-Liaison (Acting NASA Chief Historian) Burt Ulrich-Liaison (NASA Multimedia Liaison) Brandon Hall, Coin Update Mike Unser, Coin News www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 4 E X H I B I T S NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE (None marked.) www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 5 P R O C E E D I N G S CHAIRMAN URAM: Good morning, everyone. I reconvene this meeting of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee for Wednesday, September 23, 2020. This is the second day of a two-day public meeting. I would like to remind each member of the committee to mute his or her phone when not talking, and to announce your name at the beginning of each time you speak. It helps the transcriber, for sure. Additionally, I'll remind the public can mute your phone, and that that is a listening only hearing for the public. Okay. Before we begin, I would like to introduce the members of the committee. And please respond present when I call your name. Sam Gill. MR. GILL: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you Lawrence Brown -- Dr. Lawrence Brown. DR. BROWN: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. Dr. Dean Kotlowski. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 6 DR. KOTLOWSKI: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Dean. Mary Lannin. MS. LANNIN: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. MORAN: Mike Moran. Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. SALMON: Robin Salmon. Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. Donald Scarinci. MR. SCARINCI: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Stevens-Sollman. Thank you. Jeanne Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Sorry. I'm sorry, I'm on mute. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN URAM: No problem. Present. Thank you. Dennis Tucker. MR. TUCKER: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. Dr. Peter van Alfen. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 7 DR. VAN ALFEN: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. I'm Tom Uram, Chairman of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee. members. And once again, good morning to all of our And we have a full quorum, and that's great, two days in a row, and today's agenda for day two of this public meeting includes the following. We are going to review and discussion of the obverse and reverse candidate designs for the 2021 National Law Enforcement Museum commemorative coin program. We will have a review and discussion of the obverse and reverse candidate designs for the following Hidden Figures Congressional Gold Medals. That will include Dorothy J. Vaughan, Mary W. Jackson, and the whole Figures group medal, of the Hidden Figures. We will have a review and discussion of the obverse and reverse candidate design for David J. Ryder United States Mint Director, for his medal. Before we begin our proceedings, would members of the press please identify yourselves on the phone with your name and organization? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 8 BRANDON HALL: Yes, Brandon Hall with Coin Update. CHAIRMAN URAM: All right, Brandon. Good to have you back. MIKE UNSER: Mike Gunther with Coin News. CHAIRMAN URAM: Any others? Okay. Mike, thanks again. Thank you. For the record, I would like to also like to confirm the following Mint staff that are on the phone call today. I've called your name. Please indicate present after April Stafford, the chief office of design -- the Chief of the Office of Design Management. April? MS. STAFFORD: I'm present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. Thank you. Senior Design Specialist Megan Sullivan. MS. SULLIVAN: Present. Good morning, Tom. CHAIRMAN URAM: you. Good morning. Thank Design Manager Boneza Hanchock. MS. HANCHOCK: Present. Thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 9 CHAIRMAN URAM: Thanks, Boneza. Design Manager Pam Borer. MS. BORER: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. Thanks, Pam. Design Manager Roger Vasquez. MR. VASQUEZ: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thanks, Roger. Design Manager Russell Evans. MR. EVANS: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: you. Good morning. Good morning. Thank Chief Engraver of the United States Mint, Joe Menna. MS. STAFFORD: Tom. This is April. He will be joining us, He's having a drill at his location, so he'll be joining in a few minutes. CHAIRMAN URAM: That will be fine. Manager of Design and Engraving Ron Harrigal. MR. HARRIGAL: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. The Director of Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs and our liaison to the CCAC Jennifer Warren. Jennifer? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 10 MS. WARREN: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. Our Senior Legal Counsel and Counsel to the CCAC Greg Weinman. Greg? MR. WEINMAN: Good morning, Tom. Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: you. Good morning. Thank And Deputy Director of Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs Betty Birdsong. MS. BIRDSONG: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Betty? Thanks, Tom. Thank you. Okay. And we have the liaisons that will be joining on the call today. Some might be on now, and some towards the afternoon. So, for the 2021 National Law Enforcement Museum commemorative coin the liaison is Marcia Ferranto, CEO of the National Law Enforcement Memorial and Museum, and also Margaret Mullins, the Chief of Staff and Board Liaison of the National Law Enforcement Memorial and Museum. So, we welcome Margaret and Marcia joining our conversation as that liaison. For the Hidden Figures Mary W. Jackson www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 11 Congressional Gold Medal is Ms. Wanda Jackson, the granddaughter of Mary Jackson. For the Hidden Figures Dorothy J. Vaughan Congressional Gold Medal is Mr. Leonard Vaughan and Ms. Ann Hammond, the children of Dorothy Vaughan. And for the Hidden Figures Group Congressional Gold Medal is Dr. Brian C. Odom, Acting NASA Chief Historian, and Burt Ulrich, NASA Multimedia Liaison. So, thank you to all our liaisons for joining us today. I'd like to begin with the Mint. Are there any other issues that need to be addressed before we start? Hearing none, we will move to the first order of business today, the consideration of candidate designs for the 2021 National Law Enforcement commemorative coin. Now, April Stafford, Chief of the Mint's Office of Design Management, will present the candidate obverse and reverse designs for the 2021 National Law Enforcement Museum commemorative coin. April? MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. provide some background on this program. First, I'll Public Law www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 12 116-94 Division K, the National Law Enforcement Museum Commemorative Coin Act, requires the Secretary of the Treasury to mint and issue $5 gold, $1 silver, and half-dollar clad commemorative coins with designs emblematic of the National Law Enforcement Museum and the service and sacrifice of law enforcement officers throughout the history of the United States. The National Law Enforcement Museum’s mission is to honor and commemorate the service and sacrifice of America’s law enforcement officers and to serve as an important bridge between law enforcement’s past and present, between the officers of yesteryear and those who have followed in their footsteps. It also serves to increase public understanding of and support for law enforcement and to promote law enforcement safety; and to strengthen the relationship between law enforcement and the communities they serve with thought-provoking programs at the Museum and around the country that promote dialogue on topics of current interest. Designs in this portfolio were developed in consultation with liaisons from the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 13 National Law Enforcement Museum. With us today we have representatives from the National Law Enforcement Memorial and Museum, including Marcia Ferranto, CEO, and Margaret Mullins, Chief of Staff. Ms. Ferranto, would you like to say a few words before we present the candidate designs for consideration? MARCIA FERRANTO: April. Yes, thank you, And thank you to the distinguished committee that we have represented here today. It is an honor to be here talking about a law enforcement coin. This is a special time in U.S. history, to be representing the interests of American citizens through minting a law enforcement coin. Our greatest focus currently is on community and diversity. And we are hoping that during this time, this unique time where we are coming out with this coin, that we will be able to communicate the importance of those two subjects through our coin issue. Secondly, you know, it's interesting. Law enforcement represents a love for coins. We have a database of over 1 million law enforcement www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 14 constituents who follow us on a regular basis, and who donate to us. coins. And one of their prides are challenge So, we are speaking to an audience of coin collectors, which I think is very interesting if you couple that with today's climate. Thirdly, and I will end with this, we cannot discuss or bring up law enforcement without focusing on respect, honoring and remembering. So, as we have these discussions today, I would like for the committee to keep that in mind. And we are very excited to listen to your perspectives and your expertise, and we're excited to see where we land here at the end of the day. So, thank you. MS. STAFFORD: Ferranto. Thank you so much, Ms. And because we are having a virtual meeting, as we have done with the previous meeting, I will be going through the entire portfolio, but only reading into record the design descriptions for designs that have been identified as either preferences by our liaisons with the National Law Enforcement Memorial and Museum, or identified as recommendations by the Commission of Fine Arts, from www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 15 their meeting last Thursday. However, the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee is considering the entire portfolio. time now. They have had these materials for some And that information will be supplied for the record. So, first, we will start with the gold obverse designs. Remember, that gold obverse design's required inscriptions include "Liberty," "2021," and "In God We Trust." So, I'll start with gold obverse 1; 2; 2A. Gold obverse 2A depicts law enforcement honor guards solemnly presenting a folded flag in remembrance of fallen comrades. inscription -- I apologize. inscription on 2A. The additional There is no additional This obverse, again gold obverse 2A, was identified by the Commission of Fine Arts as its recommendation for the silver obverse. Moving on to gold obverse 3; 3A. Gold obverse 3A feature a law enforcement badge centered on a sympathy wreath. A single rose lies over the badge. The additional inscription on 3A is "National Law Enforcement Memorial And Museum." This obverse, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 16 obverse 3A, was recommended by the CFA as the gold reverse. Gold obverse 4 and gold obverse 6. Moving on to the gold reverse designs. The required inscriptions for these designs include "United States Of America," "E Pluribus Unum," and "Five Dollars" or "$5." If I could ask everyone to mute your phone, we can hear you speaking. denomination, $5. Thank you. And the So, starting with the gold reverse 1; 2; 3; 4; 5; 6; and 7. Moving to the silver obverse designs with the required inscriptions "Liberty," "2021," and "In God We Trust." Silver obverse 1; silver obverse 2. Silver obverse 2 depicts a male and female officer saluting. In design 2, a rose represents a respectful tribute to those who served and sacrificed. This design was identified by our liaison as a preference, and recommended by the CFA for the gold obverse. Moving on to silver obverse 5; 6; 8; and 10. Silver obverse 10 depicts a view of the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 17 National Law Enforcement Museum along with the National Law Enforcement Museum emblem against a faceted starburst. The year of issuance is incused on a shape representing a law enforcement badge. The design also features thirteen stars and an olive branch. This design was identified by our liaison as a preference for the clad reverse coin, which would require removal of the inscriptions, In God We Trust, and "2021," so that we could include the required reversed inscriptions of "United States of America," "E Pluribus Unum," and "Half-dollar." Moving on to the silver reverse designs, with the required inscriptions "United States of America," "E Pluribus Unum," and "One Dollar" or "$1." We start with silver reverse 1; 2; 5; 6; 7; 8; 9; 10; 11; 12; and 13. Moving to the clad obverse, with required inscriptions including "Liberty," "2021," and "In God We Trust." Start with clad obverse 1; 2; 3; 4. Clad obverse 4 depicts a law enforcement officer www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 18 showing his uniform hat to a little girl. The additional inscription is "Serve and Protect." This design was identified by the liaison as a preference for the clad obverse. Moving on to clad obverse 5; 6; 7; 8; 9; 12; 12A. Clad obverse 12A depicts the partnership between working animals in law enforcement and their human handlers. On the left there is a mounted police officer, while an adult K-9 officer and its handler sit on the right alongside a K-9 puppy. Design 12A has the additional inscription "Respect Honor Remember." This design was identified by our liaison as a preference for the silver obverse. Moving on to clad obverse 14. And that closes out the clad obverse designs. Clad reverse designs have required inscriptions including "United States of America," "E Pluribus Unum," and "Half-Dollar." We'll start with clad reverse 1. This design features the inscriptions "National Law Enforcement Memorial and Museum" and "Service." four stars surrounding the inscriptions represent www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 The Meeting September 23, 2020 19 respect, fidelity, commitment, and the sacrifice of all law enforcement. This design was identified by our liaison as a preference for the silver reverse. Moving on to clad reverse 2; 3. Clad reverse 3 features a laurel wreath with two stars, representing the idea of To Serve and Protect, the goal of every law enforcement officer. The inscriptions read "National Law Enforcement Museum" and "Respect Remember Honor." This design was recommended by the CFA for the silver reverse. Clad reverse 4; 6; 7; 8; 9; 10; 11. Clad reverse 11 features a folded flag framed by the inscription "Respect Honor Remember" and three roses of remembrance in memory of those that have fallen in the line of duty. This design was identified by the liaison as a preference for the gold reverse. And finally, closing out the portfolio with clad reverses 13 and 14. Mr. Chairman, back to you. CHAIRMAN URAM: April. Okay. Thank you, So, just for clarification, I didn't see any preference for the CFA or the liaison on gold reverse www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 20 or silver reverse. MS. STAFFORD: No, the liaisons have identified preferences for all six of the designs that we're seeking recommendations for. to you again. I can read those But the Commission of Fine Arts only made recommendations for the gold obverse, reverse, and silver obverse and reverse. They had no recommendations for the clad. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Yeah, I have those written down as well, what they did. Could you give the committee the gold reverse again, the numbers that the liaison prefers? MS. STAFFORD: Sure. For the gold reverse, it is clad reverse 11. CHAIRMAN URAM: you've done. Okay. Okay. I see what I had it categorized different. I was marking those down. Okay. But, just so the committee knows, you want to do the silver just as well? The silver I have as 12A -- clad 12A. MS. STAFFORD: Yes. The silver obverse recommendation from the liaison is the clad observer 12A or the clad reverse 1. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 21 CHAIRMAN URAM: what I had marked down. Okay. Right. Okay. That's Thanks for the clarification. MS. STAFFORD: You're welcome. CHAIRMAN URAM: It's not too often that we're able to review a set of three coins for a commemorative coin program, and for the newer members in particular not only do we want to pick the designs that are embolic of the theme. But, versus doing one coin, this gives you the opportunity to tell the whole story. And I think that really makes a nice series. So, when you're choosing your designs keep that in mind, that we're telling a really nice story here. And we tried to not have any type of duplications of designs from, let's say, the half, the dollar, or both. So, just wanted to clarify that for a couple of our newer members. Now, I'd like to ask Joe Menna and Ron Harrigal if they have anything to share. Joe, are you on the phone? MR. MENNA: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 We Meeting September 23, 2020 22 got you counted. Joe and Ron, if they have anything to share with the committee on the designs for the commemorative coin. MR. MENNA: This is Joe. I would just point out that the clad reverse 11, for the -- you know, people not familiar with the visual nomenclature that we use, indicates an incused area of the coin. So, the folded flag will not -- will look like a sunken triangle, with the stars in the positive. Unless the committee feels differently, and would want to indicate that that flag be raised and not incused, to look more like a flag folded. CHAIRMAN URAM: That's all. And that was for clad reverse 11? MR. MENNA: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Thank you. Ron, anything else? MR. HARRIGAL: very large portfolio. Thank you. No, it's a And the team did a really good job of coming up with these diverse designs. I think all of them, when you actually look at them, you know, interchanging gold, silver, and clad, I don't think www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 23 you're going to see much difference due to the planchet size. I think they all have sufficient detail for the larger size planchets, like the 1.2 or 1.5 inch clad, in the half dollar as well as the .85 gold. So, yeah, I think interchangeability on all these designs is definitely possible. CHAIRMAN URAM: That's a good point. And good for the committee to know. That's real important. Okay. So, thank you. Thanks to both of you. Are there any technical or legal questions from the committee about this program or these designs before we begin any general discussions? Does anyone have anything they'd like to bring up at this time regarding the portfolio? Okay. I have a thought regarding how we might present this. If you recall, we did the Apollo and a few others where we basically scored -- and even, most recently, the last portfolio, where we basically scored on the silver and gold eagles, where we had multiple designs like this. What would the committee think about as we, going forward, discuss all the designs but when we vote on them we will do like we www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 24 did last time, and we will take the rankings accordingly. And then at the end, we could decide obverse/reverse. Is everyone okay with that approach? MS. LANNIN: That's fine. DR. VAN ALFEN: van Alfen. It's Mary. Sorry, this is Peter Just to be clear, we will go through the gold portfolio, silver portfolio, then clad, and then at the end consider what we have all decided what -CHAIRMAN URAM: Right. I think we could vote then, at that point, like we would normally vote. And then we could take the -- let's say the top two or three from each category, and have a discussion after that on pairings. DR. VAN ALFEN: MR. TUCKER: Sounds good. Mr. Chair, this is Dennis Tucker. CHAIRMAN URAM: I heard Dennis first. Go ahead. MR. TUCKER: Thank you. The way I looked at this program was not as a portfolio with several dozen designs, you know, reviewed individually and as stand-alones. But I looked at them as, you www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 25 know, this is what I think works for gold. what I think works for the silver dollar. what I think works for the half-dollar. This is This is And for me, I kind of crystallized an understanding of the gold coin is going to represent this, the silver dollar is going to represent this aspect of law enforcement and the museum's mission, and then the half-dollar will represent a third aspect. So, for me, only looking at designs, it won't work the way I studied the -CHAIRMAN URAM: Well, still present it. We'll still present it that way. And then at the end, we can, you know -- but you can make your points when you're going over each portfolio. MR. TUCKER: That will be fine. Okay. CHAIRMAN URAM: That's not a problem. And that's fine. MS. LANNIN: Mr. Chair, this is Mary. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. LANNIN: Yeah, Mary, go ahead. I had a thought when Margaret was speaking about the law enforcement museum this morning. She mentioned that they had an enormous database of about a million people that follow them, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 26 and that they had an interest in challenge coins. And so, it sort of made me think that possibly we -regarding the half-dollar, the clad coin, if we could make it more symbolic of what a challenge coin would be, among law enforcement, that may create an extra boost for people to obtain it. And I don't know what the situation is, nor do I understand, how police departments are funded. But, it would be an interesting thing if a community service officer had a few half-dollar coins in his or her pocket, and would be able to hand them out. Now, that's just my thought. CHAIRMAN URAM: Good point. Or with the marketing they could add a challenge coin into the packaging. I will leave that up to marketing. MS. LANNIN: All right. MR. SCARINCI: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN URAM: All right. This is Donald? MR. SCARINCI: This is Donald Scarinci. Just so that it's more convenient for you as you go around the room to have people speak, you know, I www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 27 recognize that this program was adopted by Congress last year. Unfortunately, you know, we're called upon on September 23rd of this year, and as a matter of conscience I can't really be associated with this program. So, I am going to abstain on all of the designs. And I don't need to participate in the discussion, other than to register that I am here for quorum. designs. So, Greg can mark my abstention on all three And I just thought I would tell you now, and just spare that as you're going through the room. CHAIRMAN URAM: you. Okay, Donald. Thank Did you mention this to Jennifer prior -- well, she's on the phone. MR. SCARINCI: No. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. SCARINCI: Okay. No. CHAIRMAN URAM: Any other comments? And we're going to get started. considerations. Okay. And we'll begin our Once again, I'd like all the members to please try and keep comments to five minutes or less, and identify yourself when you start. I'll www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 28 identify you, but if there's any kind of discussion later on. We'll be keeping track of the time, and we'll indicate when time is up and asking you to please wrap up the comments. Additionally, if any members have any questions or comments, ask that you refrain and bring them up when you're recognized or, again, when we ask for additional comments. Okay. So, let us begin. And Dr. Brown, let's start with you today. DR. BROWN: Good morning, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN URAM: DR. BROWN: Good morning. And please forgive me. had to get myself off mute. I And I'd like to say that I was really impressed by the designs. I want to commend those who were involved in the designs that we have in front of us. I also would like to share and remind everyone that I'm representing the public, even though I have a hobby of coin collecting. representing the public. I'm So, my colleagues who, in fact, have more refined expertise and experience from the standpoint of sculpturing and design, I certainly www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 29 in fact bow to them from that perspective. So, from looking at it from the standpoint of the public and looking at it from the perspective and the prism of the fact that I do support and see the value of our law enforcement, they do a fantastic job, even though there are some times when there have been concerns, and we would be remiss if we didn't recognize the fact that we are at a challenging time. But, putting that aside, Mr. Chair, I certainly would like to see the design obverse for gold 2A. I really thought that one represents the fact that, number one, the diversity and, certainly, the humans. I certainly like those designs that allow that. I'd like to then, because of the fact I have only five minutes, I'd like to go, then, to say that with respect to the gold reverse I lean towards, in fact, designs reverse 6 and 7, because, again, they strike me as things that would be really of interest to the public in general, and certainly to collectors as well. The fact the flag is there and, as you all www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 30 know, having served in the Army whenever I see the flag that certainly has a motivation for me. Continuing to scroll down to the silver, and please give me a second or two as I move my computer to look the things that I wrote -- because this required a fair amount of homework for me, even as I just recently left my rookie year. With respect to the silver obverse, the design that most lends to my eyes is design obverse 5. That, to me, was really striking, and I really was impressed by that, as well as, although to a lesser extent, obverse 10. With respect to the reverse on the silver, I lean towards reverse 2, as well as, in fact, to a lesser extent reverses 11 and 13. With respect to the clad, I was really impressed with design obverse 1 and obverse 4, as well as obverse 8. On the reverse side, I'd like to, in fact, acknowledge my favor towards reverse -- I'm sorry, I'm still on the clad. Please forgive me. the clad, on obverse 2 -- hold on one second. make sure I've got this right. mistake. On Let me My apologies, I made a That should have been on the clad obverse 2 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 31 and obverse 1. Chair, I think that I've covered all of them. But, I'll take another look to make sure I didn't make a blunder. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Thank you. I think if you'd like to edit anything, that will be fine. DR. BROWN: Thank you so much. CHAIRMAN URAM: Michael? Mike Moran. Mike, do we have you out there? MR. MORAN: the darn mute. was texting. Yes, Tom. Well, I was texting. All right. I couldn't find You know why I Let me say that while most of these designs can fit on all three of these coin diameters, I think there are some designs that are better -- the simpler the better on the gold coin. Because -- you can talk about numbers -- everybody, particularly the new members, need to remember that these designs are going on the size of a nickel. The dollar and the half-dollar certainly have more flexibility. If I were to now, then, critique what www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 32 I'm about to critique, I would say that I am so far out in left field, compared to what the sponsors had picked and what the CFA have picked that I may be still out in left field by the time we get through with all this thing. But, I'm going to go through this anyway. I'm going to start with the gold coin. I like the concept of obverse design 1, although I am concerned about the gray scale. could be a bit better. I think the lion Other than -- I do like the idea of it being framed by the outline of the shield. I also like the concept of the allegory of watching over and protection, and being a guardian of the people. I think it conveys a good message. We do have several of these that are animals. And my comment to the artist is you need to beware if you have an animal in full front, and there's several in this package that are that way, that you run the risk of the nose and the muzzle being foreshortened. And there's one in particular, I won't point it out, that really does violate that. I learned that the hard way myself several years ago, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 33 when I picked one and got taken to the woodshed by another member of the committee, who was absolutely correct. Okay. Turning to the reverse on the gold -- let me get it up here -- I like reverse design 7. I like the fact that it extended beyond the inner boundary, the flag -- the pole and flag extend beyond the inner boundary of the coin. I like the fact that it basically was dedication to service. I thought it paired particularly well with the line on the obverse. Moving to the silver coin, design obverse 6. It's a somber design. But, I do think that the native space is good original use of it, to tell a story of loss. the inscriptions. I also like the placement of I think it's a very good job there. However, I think it might work better as the obverse or the reverse of a clad coin, because there's just a little bit too much negative space telling that story in obverse 6. Moving to the reverse, I like reverse design 7 or 8, although I really don't have a whole heck of a lot to say about it, other than I thought it www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 34 paired pretty decently with obverse 6. Going to the clad coins, obverse design 8 somewhat works on me. But, I thought it might work better on the dollar coin. And I had absolutely -- let's see -- no, I chose none of the reverses. couldn't make up my mind. five minutes. So, I didn't even use up my Tom, it's back to you. CHAIRMAN URAM: you. Mary Lannin. Okay. Okay, Michael. Thank Mary? MS. LANNIN: hear you. I I'm sorry. I couldn't Let us start with the gold. I felt that both the CFA and the liaison liked the reverse of silver obverse 02 for the gold. that. And I agree with I'm going to go with the CFA's recommendation for the reverse being gold obverse 3A, because I think it's important that we have in large print, as large as we can, the National Law Enforcement Memorial and Museum, so that people know what this is going for. In regard to the silver, the liaison's preference was clad obverse 12A, which shows the front portion of the horse and the dog, the dog handler, and the little puppy. I thought that given the current www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 35 times that we're in and the recognition that we have really a wonderful number of police that are serving our country, that it was sort of a softer, gentler approach. Remember." And right underneath it says "Respect Honor I tended to like the clad reverse 01 for the silver coin. Because, again, that says the "National Law Enforcement Memorial and Museum." Okay. And now we move to the clad, where I sort of have invented something that I would like to see. For the clad, I would like us to take a look at clad obverse 09, which would be, sort of, my version of this challenge coin. This is the tinplate sheriff's star, representing the community, and as I recall when we have done other law enforcement commemorative coins they sold very quickly with a star or a shield on the front. So, I thought that that was a good obverse for the clad. And for the reverse, just to be a little bit different, I would like to see clad reverse 06, which has -- let me find it here -- which has the magnifying glass looking at the fingerprint, and it says it's portraying the human side of justice and a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 36 reminder that law enforcement is not just officers on the street but many other people. And I think with the prevalence of TV programs that are investigative, like NCIS or CIS or something like that, it would appeal to a younger group of people and would be an interesting pairing for the clad coin. And that's all I have, Mr. Chair. Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Mary. That could be a very good pairing. MS. SALMON: Okay. Robin? Thank you, Mr. Chair. For the gold coin -- well, first let me say that I don't have any objections to the designs selected by the liaison. I think they're all absolutely appropriate, and do the job that they're intended to do. I just want to offer, perhaps, some other thoughts. For the gold, I preferred 2A -- obverse 2A, showing the male and female officers with the flag. And the reverse of the gold, I thought that the design that shows the pattern in the floor of the memorial was very interesting. rose window in the cathedral. It's almost like a And the word "Remember, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 37 and then the emblem of the National Law Enforcement Museum seems to make a nice pair, obverse 2A and reverse 2. For the silver, I did go with obverse 2, with the male and female officers saluting and the rose that's a very beautiful but powerful image, to me. And then, for the reverse, I chose 6. With the handshake representing the community, to protect and serve, and all of that within the emblem of the museum seemed to be a very beautiful and significant design that tells that story. The clad I had a little bit more difficulty making decisions on that. There were so many to choose from, each with its own special merit. And I must saw that the artists on this project did a tremendous job of trying to put together all of the concepts in art. It's not easy, and they did a great job. Obverse, I like 4, with the officer kneeling and the child, "Serve and Protect" being part of the wording there. And a possible pairing with that would be 6, the reverse 6. As Mary pointed out, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 38 that it also shows the other side of law enforcement that's not always seen. And I think that it's important to remember that there is much more than the uniformed officer on the street. Two other pairings that could be possible, and they seem to have been designed to be together, was obverse 1, with the flag and the hands, also representing the community but representing sacrifice. And then, reverse 1, with the words "National Law Enforcement Memorial and Museum" and then the word "Service." "Sacrifice" on the obverse 1, and "Service" on reverse 1 seem to have been designed together. And one last comment about animals. In particular, if the thought of including animals in the designs were considered, I would think that obverse 5 with the beautiful portrait of the K-9 officer, and obverse 12, with the K-9 officer and the mounted officer, are both really great designs that could be inserted in any of these. And that's all I have. Thank you, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Robin. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Sam? Meeting September 23, 2020 39 MR. GILL: Chairman, I think. Well, thank you, Mr. I love your thoughts on that these three coins give us an opportunity to tell a story. And it's a beautiful story, and it's a good one and it should be told. I'll start with the gold. And I'm going to go right down the line with Mike Moran. love the lion. coin. I I think it would look great on a gold The symmetry is beautiful. There's the strength and the courage and the protective attitudes of police to our community, and I appreciate that very much on the obverse. On the reverse, artist's gold 7, I just think it's a beautiful sentiment. done in a lovely way. The rose is And it shows great respect, and I appreciated that very much. I thought that would look very nice on a gold coin. For the silver, I like obverse 02. love the diversity in it. I I love the saluting, and I -- that makes a very touching coin. rose, the rose sentiment there. And I like the For the reverse, the former -- I chose the reverse 05. It's similar to what Robin chose, which was 06, but it just is a more www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 40 complete appeal. And I like the handshake and the community that it protects. With the clad, I'm just -- I'll admit it. I'm always a sucker for animals. love, love 05. And I love, It may not be the choice -- probably my choice would 012, with the horse and the handler, the dog, and then the puppy. combination. But I love that And with the reverse for the clad, I chose number 1. I just really -- in your face Service, which I like very, very much. And it also mentions the museum, the word museum, instead of just a National Law Enforcement -- no, excuse me, it mentions memorial as well as museum. So, that's why I chose that one. And I'll be interested to hear what everybody else has to say on this, because I think there are many pairings. And with respect to the liaisons, I could easily see why they chose what they chose. I thought they were very, very thoughtful. So, between all of us I think we'll come up with some good plans here. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Sam. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 41 Dennis? MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. For this coin program, I had the guidance of an old friend with law enforcement experience at the local and state level. And for the past 20 years or so, he's been in law enforcement at the federal level. where he's currently active. And that's His insight helped me organize my thoughts on the gold coin, in particular, but also the program as a whole. We talked about community, trust, and understanding, strength and sacrifice. I won't share all of our conversations here, but these are some of his thoughts on the gold coin: "I like the powerful message of sacrifice in obverse 2A, the male and female officers with the coffin flag, combined with the reverse being an interconnected design with the simple message Remember. That was reverse 2. The simplicity of the reverse side is a nice counterbalance to the powerful obverse message. It also symbolizes interconnectedness." www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 42 And I can't improve on that sentiment. It's interesting to me that Robin, you essentially had the same thoughts on that combination of obverse and reverse. I think obverse 2A and reverse 2 make a quietly impressive coin. Those designs combined turn the gold $5 into a memorial coin, something valuable that could be given to the families of the fallen, given to remember a friend who made the ultimate sacrifice for community. For the silver dollar, I like obverse 5. If the gold $5 is a tribute to the fallen, the silver dollar can be about connection. Obverse 5 illustrates protective vigilance over the innocent. To me, the boy taking a break from his basketball game to read a book represents American society functioning under this layer of protection. When the system works smoothly, we can go about our days without even thinking about how safe and protected we are. For the reverse of the silver dollar, reverse 13 makes the message of community more conscious and more deliberate. Reverse 13 is connection between police and civilians, specifically www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 43 and importantly, a civilian who appears to be a minority. In fact, the man might have been the little boy who was protected by the police on the coin's obverse. For the half-dollar, I think obverse 8, the diverse montage of law enforcement officers. It embodies three elements of the museum's mission and the mission of law enforcement in its legends. And for the reverse, 7, 8, 9 and 10 make good use of the officer's shield, which kind of takes advantage of that challenge coin concept that Mary mentioned. The officer's shield is iconic, it's instantly recognizable as a symbol of law enforcement. So, I recommend one of these designs, if we can have some discussion around the best wording. My preference, personally, is reverse 9, which has "Serve and Protect." So, Mr. Chair, that was how I saw each of the three different coins being used to represent a different aspect of law enforcement and the mission of the museum. The gold coin being a memorial coin, the silver dollar being about community and connection, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 44 and then the half-dollar being about what law enforcement officers do day to day, which is serve and protect. CHAIRMAN URAM: you. Thank you very much. Thank And Dean? DR. KOTLOWSKI: Chairman. Okay, Dennis. Thank you, Mr. I'm coming at this program as one of the newer members, and I'm also coming from a perspective that I'm familiar with the architecture of the museum and the surrounding area, having walked through that area. I apologize to the liaisons. the museum yet. to do it. I haven't been in But I'm inspired after this program It always happens to be closed when I'm doing my walk in DC. So, let's going to affect a little bit about my choices. And I also looked at this in a couple of other ways. Three coins, introduction, body and conclusion, and then three themes. And so, my first theme, which is the introduction, is the gold coin, the first one that we've been asked to consider. And I am willing to go with a couple of choices here. Gold obverse 2A, the man and the woman and the flag, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 45 or, again -- to repeat, this is the gold obverse -the silver obverse 2, which is the choice of the liaisons and the CFA. I like the saluting. I like the rose. And then, for the reverse, I wanted to do something a little different. the gold. And again, this is I wanted to use silver reverse number 5, which -- because I felt we needed a badge. And I think that this makes the point with a good deal of simplicity and clarity, and it has the protect and serve our community. reverse number 5. And just to repeat that, silver I think Sam identified that for one of his coins. This is a little bit different for the silver. I really want to format and feature the actual museum and the surrounding area. So, this is the coin that I feel the most passionate about. I would use silver obverse number 10, which shows the museum. And it's an interesting museum architecturally. look. It's a good museum, in terms of its And I wait to pair silver obverse number 10 with gold reverse number 4, which is the lion. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 And Meeting September 23, 2020 46 obviously, we'd have to change that from $5 to $1. That sculptural image of the lion is very much in tune with the sculpture of the lions around the museum. And although this is not going to be a coin that's going to be really familiar to, maybe, the public, I feel strongly that it represents the museum. And I really like this lion the best of all, the musculature and things like that. Again, it is very representative of the sculpture around the museum. And I do think that would make a nice coin. And it might push the conversation a little bit forward, and get people to think about the museum. My third theme was -- the first theme, by the way, was service, with the gold coin. The third theme, the kind of conclusion, is sacrifice. And I was very much drawn to summing up the argument, or the point, by using reverse -- I'm going to start with the reverse here. Clad reverse number 2, which says "Honoring the Service and Sacrifice of Law Enforcement Officers Throughout Our History." very textural. It's But, I think it makes the point of the three coin set, and I like the rose. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 47 I am very much open to what the obverse might be. well. I sort of thought that obverse 1 would work I had a concern that it might be a little too somber when paired with 2. go with 4. So, I would be willing to I think 4 is the best of the images of a man and a child, in terms of the community. be willing to go with that. So, I'd Those were the thoughts that I had, as I began this process. I was very impressed, though, with Mary's comments about the pairing of 9 and 6 for the clad obverse and the clad reverse. And I think that -- I mean, that's a very powerful argument. I'm going to be considering that when I record my ballot. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay, Dean. Thank you. Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Chair. Thank you, Mr. This has been a portfolio that I've really worked hard on, and I have to remember -- and we have to remember -- that the CCAC has been charged with the job of choosing the best coin designs to represent the U.S. in an international world of coins. And these www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 48 coins are the art in your pocket. Let us not forget that every public coin exchange gives you the opportunity and the power to talk about history, about the future, and about our country. So, it is with great reserve and respect that we contemplate these designs for the National Law Enforcement Museum, especially today, while we have this current climate. We have six sides to tell our story, much like the commemorative series of the Boys Town, and it is understandable to have the recognition of the museum on each coin. So, how can we do this. And I appreciate the dialogue of all of my colleagues. And as Dennis spoke yesterday so eloquently of having the obverse be the action and the verb, and the reverse being the noun of the text, we might consider this concept when we choose today's designs. Going through -- unlike my previous committee members, I'm going to go through this not as a pairing but just as the designs that I think would be possible. So, bear with me a bit. gold number 2 was a possibility. I thought that I thought also that we should think about -- I'm sorry to scroll through www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 49 this. Gold reverse 02, I enjoyed listening to Robin's comments on that. I think that that would make -- and Dennis also saying that this would make a coin of remembrance. I think that's a very positive approach to this. Going further down, I also thought that silver obverse number 2 could be considered. Not necessarily if we chose the partnership of the gold. I think we need a diversity in the series. And then, to go down to -- as Dean mentioned, the museum, this is really a beautiful coin design. about the structure. And it does talk I love the background, when you look through these windows. It's -- I think that Joe could do a beautiful job with this, indicating the interior structure of the museum. So, this is a coin I would look toward. The handshake I don't think is a design that pops out for me. further. And then I'm going down I think that clad 01, obverse 01, with Sacrifice and the flag, is, again, simple and powerful. When I'm looking at these coins, I want these things to pop out. I want somebody to be www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 50 challenged with do I pick it up or do I forget it. These coins with negative space, I feel like, is important in choosing the design. When we come down to -- all right, animals, clad obverse number 5, this K-9 officer is fabulous. And I agree with Robin, this is a really wonderful rendition of the dog. a handler. It also has a dog and And this is something that I believe the liaison wanted to have that combination. But we have it there with a powerful statement about what these magnificent animals do for law enforcement. I think we need to consider that somewhere. I also selected clad obverse 8 with a good representation of diversity. And this is something that I will give high marks to. Mary's idea of the badge. I like I think that is an interesting way to approach, perhaps, our general public, that we need to bring in young people. How can we address their interest, I think, with animals, with badges. Something simple. And then, when we get down to clad obverse 12A, this is a wonderful combination of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 51 community, of respect. The only comment that I have is the horse -- the front legs, you know, those tiny little feet maybe need to be reworked. I'm not thinking that's a good idea to put such an elegant animal on those tiny little feet. And I believe that -- to go through these final pieces, I thought that clad reverse 03 was a very simple and positive statement. And also clad reverse number 1 with Service and the text for the museum and the memorial. that -- oh, yes, one more. with Mary. And I believe, Mr. Chairman, Clad reverse 6, I agree This is an absolutely great coin design. I mean, we have some interest there. It's open, simple, and I think we could pair that with some of our other informative designs. Chairman. That's all I have. CHAIRMAN URAM: your thoughts. Okay. Thank you for Peter? DR. VAN ALFEN: Chairman. And thank you, Mr. Thank you, Mr. My approach to this, as the newest member of the committee, really was to look at the strength of the individual designs, as well as the symbolism. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 52 And particularly some of those subtleties of the symbolism. You know, for me one of the clearest symbols of law enforcement is the badge or the shield. And so, I've tended to have a preference for those designs that featured, you know, the badge or the shield. In looking at the obverse for the gold, I was really drawn to number 1, with the lions. In part because this seems to be a reference to Raymond Kaskey's lions at the memorial, which is a nice tiein. Also, there's a very long tradition of having facing lions on coins, you know, extending back to the various first coins in the Lydian tradition, you know, struck in, you know, 650 BC or so. So, you know, that is also a nice reference. I also had a partiality to obverse 3 and 3A, again because of the shield. And the roses seem to be a reference as well to the memorial logo, which includes a rose and a shield. And also, in the 1997 $1 coin for the memorial, there was also a badge and a rose as well. So, there seems to be, you know, sort of an extending reference there. And I do like www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 53 the strength of the design of 2A. I do have some slight reservations about it, though. And this has to do, you know, with some of the subtleties of the symbolism. At my eye, both of the figures there depicted seem to be Caucasian, which is something we might want to consider in reference to everything that has been happening lately. And also, the foregrounding of the man and the putting the woman in the background also is -- you know, there's some subtleties in the symbolism there which is something that we, you know, again might want to consider, even though it is, you know, a rather strong design. In terms of the reverses of the golds, I do like number 2 quite a bit. I have a partial, or a preference in some cases, for geometric patterns. And again, this is a reference to a pattern at the museum. So, that also, you know, I think is appropriate. Also, I like reverse 7. Again, you know, the roses and the symbolism of the flag. You know, it does seem to be appropriate in this case. Moving on to the silver, silver obverse 10 I think is a very strong design. And I think this www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 54 could work, you know, as either an obverse or a reverse. The reverses of the silver, I really do quite like the obverses 5 and 6. Because of the incorporation of the shield as well as the handshake, which I think is very appropriate in trying to communicate the idea of community. And the fact that there is also, you know, the inscription To Protect and Serve Our Community I think, you know, really drives that point home. Moving, then, on to the clad, I really find obverse 9 to be a very strong design. You know, it has a challenge coin aspect that Mary brought up earlier. Also, you know, frankly it reminds me a great deal of the introduction to Dragnet, you know, that 1960s TV show which I have fond memories of watching when I was a kid. You know, and that symbolism there, I think, and the inscription is, you know, quite appropriate. For the reverses of the clads, the series 1, 2, and 3 are very traditional numismatic type reverses. three. I would be happy with any one of those You know, the inscriptions, of course, vary, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 55 but I think that, you know, the traditional aspects of that type of reverse, you know, is very appealing. Also, the strength of the design of number 11 I think is also quite good. Although, the heaviness of the central triangle in the flag particularly, you know, I find a little bit distracting. Although, you know, there is, you know, again sort of aspect of challenge coin type design to it, which, you know, could be appealing. So, those are my comments. turn it back to you. And I'll Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay, Peter. As we would say, just the facts, right. DR. VAN ALFEN: Just the facts. CHAIRMAN URAM: Just the facts. Okay. I will give some thoughts, and then we will proceed. First of all, when I looked at it -and Mary, I think that's a great idea on the half. So, I think that going with the clad 09 and then the reverse, I believe it was 06, which I had written down the two -- I think that that would really make a great challenge coin, and be appropriate for the half, to be www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 56 honest with you. I think that the half would pop. I had a little bit more trouble with the gold and the silver, because, as many of you know, I would like to see the K-9 somewhere, because it certainly is a big part of the whole world of service in law enforcement. And with the clad 05, of just the image of the dog -if you take a look at that -- I think that is just, like, meant for the gold piece. However, I think we don't -- I think I'd rather have the human aspect on the gold, versus the K-9. But, boy, that's a great -- for the artist, I would just say keep that one out there, because that's a great one. But maybe it could be incorporated into the silver somehow. But the 2A obverse for the gold, and then I was looking at obverse 6 of the 7 as the pairing with the gold. Obverse 6 of the silver was my thought in the pairing for the gold. dimensions. It has both And then, for the silver, to bring the K- 9 in, I thought clad obverse 5, let's see here, which would be the dog. Or, clad obverse 6 with the officer and then the K-9, and then with the gold R-2, which www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 57 was the window that a number of us have been talking about. I remember Robin bringing it up as well, several others. But, I thought that the -- you have the officer, the K-9, and then the window from reverse 02 of the gold kind of would put the human element, the K-9 element, and then the spiritual element with the window on the reverse. So, that was some of the thoughts. I appreciate everyone's participation. the artists do get high fives. And I know that I mean, I think that the liaison should be proud of what the artists have come up with for this portfolio. So, with that, is there any discussion before we go to the voting segment? Hearing none, the committee will now score the obverse and reverse candidate designs for the 2021 National Law Enforcement Museum Commemorative Coin for the gold, silver and half-dollar coins. Each of you in the mail received a packet from the United States Mint. You should have received a copy of the score sheet. I'd ask that you please take time to either cut and paste or attach it to an email, or you www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 58 may take a photo of it. And then please email your scoring sheets to our Mint Counsel, Greg Weinman. Greg will tally the scores and will present the results. What would you say, Greg? We need at least -- you're going to need more than 10, 15 minutes on this. MR. WEINMAN: be at least 20 minutes. Yes. I presume it will So, let's take a break. If I'm earlier, I'll let you know. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. TUCKER: Okay. If I just -And -- Mr. Chairman? This is Dennis. CHAIRMAN URAM: Well, hold on. Dennis, go ahead. I think I heard Jeanne first. Were you on there first? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Are you CHAIRMAN URAM: Go ahead. recognizing me? Yes. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: verify this. Okay. Yes. I need to My scoresheet for the clad is missing www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 59 some design numbers. So -- MR. WEINMAN: Oh, dear. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yeah. also the same on scoresheet for the silver. And it's You know, we're missing obverse number 2, and on the clad we're missing -CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Hold on, Jeanne. Let's mark -- everyone please pull out your sheets. And Jeanne can -MR. WEINMAN: I'm looking at -- okay. If you can, then -- I mean, obviously, if it's missing something I apologize, on the items. actual scoresheet. Can you write in -- MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: in. I didn't see the Yes, I wrote it But I just thought that other people should maybe be aware -CHAIRMAN URAM: Yes. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN URAM: -- of that. Yeah, why don't we all just take the scoresheet out and go ahead and start with the silver. What's missing there? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Okay. 02 -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 60 obverse 02 is missing. CHAIRMAN URAM: So, on the bottom put obverse 02. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. WARREN: Right. Yeah. On the silver? This is Jennifer. Are you looking at the corrected scoresheet that I sent two or three days ago, or the original? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yeah, I don't know. MS. WARREN: one. We sent out the corrected I believe you all have the corrected one. Because we sent corrected portfolio, and I believe -Megan or April can jump in. We corrected that. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Okay. That would be most helpful. DR. VAN ALFEN: This is Peter. I do have the corrected scoresheet, but there is a problem with the clad reverse table. So, I've just written in below the obverse scores for the reverses. MR. WEINMAN: Yeah, in the spirit of efficiency, yeah, please take a look at -- and please www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 61 write in what you need. consideration. And I will take that into And the tally sheet I have, I believe is -- does have all the correct -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN URAM: It's just -- Peter, what you were saying is that everything is marked obverse, and the other side should be reverse. DR. VAN ALFEN: Yeah. I mean, the score table for the clad reverse seems to mimic the table for the obverse. CHAIRMAN URAM: Yeah, it should be Rs. Okay. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: DR. BROWN: Right. Right. This is Lawrence Brown. I think if there is a way to -- we could either have them sent to us again, or to, in fact, make the corrections manually. Mr. Chair? I mean, which do you prefer, And also Greg. MR. WEINMAN: I think -- this is Greg. In the spirit of efficiency, why don't you write in manually the correction. DR. BROWN: Yes. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 62 CHAIRMAN URAM: ones, then use those. If you have the updated But if you don't -- so, what we're looking at is on the silver, if you don't have the updated one, you need to add obverse 02 to the left side. That's on the silver. And on the clad, as Peter pointed out, the right side should be Rs and not the obverse. That's the reverse side. just mark on the top reverse. So, you can So -- JENNIFER WARREN: This is Jennifer. I'm sending both the corrected ones that you received for the Hidden Figures group and the National Law Enforcement right now. Just so you have for the next one as well. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Thank you. That will be fine. Anything on the gold, Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: The gold seems fine. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. TUCKER: Mr. Chair? CHAIRMAN URAM: you next. Okay. Yeah, I was coming to Dennis. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 63 MR. TUCKER: Thank you. I've been taking as detailed notes as I can, as everyone has spoken. And I would like to request at least 30 minutes so that I have time to digest and review and look at everything that everybody said, and not feel like I'm rushed in my rankings. CHAIRMAN URAM: Based on the fact that we're on schedule, and certainly not -- you know, we're in fine shape, Greg, are you okay with that, as the minter? MR. WEINMAN: Yes, perfectly. Yeah, take 30 minutes. CHAIRMAN URAM: That will be fine, Dennis. MR. TUCKER: Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: That will be fine. So, why don't we just say that we'll convene at 10:50. Does that sound right? (Off the record.) CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. I'd like to call the meeting back to order. MR. WEINMAN: Is everybody back? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Is Meeting September 23, 2020 64 everybody on? CHAIRMAN URAM: Let's just do a roll call, just so we're sure that we have our quorum. Brown? DR. BROWN: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. SCARINCI: Donald Scarinci? Present. Here. here. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. MORAN: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. LANNIN: Sam? Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. TUCKER: Robin? Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. GILL: Mary Lannin? Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. SALMON: Mike Moran? Dennis? Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Dean? DR. KOTLOWSKI: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Present. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I'm Dr. Meeting September 23, 2020 65 CHAIRMAN URAM: Peter? DR. VAN ALFEN: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: And Tom. in quorum, Greg. Okay. We're Thank you. MR. WEINMAN: Okay. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. WEINMAN: Ready. Yes. I have the scores for the National Law Enforcement's Museum commemorative coin. It is ready. Starting with gold, gold obverse 1 is -CHAIRMAN URAM: Excuse me, Greg. We're talking 33 total. MR. WEINMAN: Yes. If Donald truly recuses himself, then it would be 30 out of 30 points. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. WEINMAN: Thirty. Yeah. Okay. Since Donald recused himself, it's out of 30 points. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. WEINMAN: need 16 as a recommendation. 13 points. Okay. There you go. So, therefore, you would So, for gold obverse 1, Gold obverse 2, eight. Obverse 2A, 21 points, which is the high scorer there. four. Obverse 3A is ten points. Obverse 3 is Obverse 4 is two www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 66 points. And obverse 6 is three points. S For the gold reverse, it's gold reverse 1 is three points. Gold reverse 2 is 16 points, which is the high scorer. Gold reverse 3 is two. reverse 4 is eight. Gold reverse 5 is four. reverse 6 is five. Gold Gold And gold reverse 7 has 12 points. Moving on to silver, silver obverse 1 has four points. Silver obverse 2 has 19 points, making it the high scorer. eight. Silver obverse 5 has Silver obverse 6 had eight. Silver 8 has two. And silver obverse 10 has 14 points. Moving on to silver reverse, silver reverse 1 has three. Silver reverse 2 has four. Silver reverse 5 has 13, which is the high scoring of the silver reverses. Silver reverse 6 has nine. Silver reverse 7 has two. Silver reverse 9 has four. five. Silver reverse 8 has five. Silver reverse 10 has Silver reverse 11 has six. has four. Silver reverse 12 And silver reverse 13 has six. Moving on to clad, clad obverse 1 has 11. Obverse 2 has five. Obverse 4 has nine. Obverse 3 has three. Obverse 5 has 17. Obverse 6 has www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 67 three. Obverse 7 has three. Obverse 8 has 12. Obverse 9 has 22, making it the highest score-getter in that category. has 11. Obverse 12 has five. And obverse 14 has two. Finally, clad reverse. 13. Reverse 2 has ten. 4 has two. getter. Obverse 12A Reverse 3 has five. Reverse Reverse 6 has 20, making it the high vote- Reverse 7 has three. Reverse 9 has seven. 11 has six. Reverse 1 has Reverse 8 has three. Reverse 10 has three. Reverse Reverse 13 has two. And reverse 14 has CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. three. Okay. So, why don't we start by getting the top three highest from each category for starters. So, if we look at the gold, we would be looking at the highest votegetters being 02A gold obverse, the second there being gold obverse 1, and then gold obverse 3A would be the third. When we're looking at the gold reverse, with 16 votes is R-02. And then R-07 is the second highest, and then we would be looking at R-4 as the third. So, with the gold you have 2A, 1, and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 68 3A. With the reverse, you have 2, 7, and 4. Going on to the silver, 02 had the highest. Then you would be looking at 010 for the silver obverse, for 14, and then there was a tie between 5 and 6, that you can just keep in mind if you want to look at those. Going on to the reverse, nothing really clear there. 05 was 13. And then you would go down to 06 would be the next, and then, kind of, the rest of the pack all in between there. When you go over to the clad, you're looking at 09 with 22. You're looking at 05, with 17. And you're then going to look at two of them with having 11, being 01 and 12A, for consideration there. When you look at the reverse of the clad, you have 06 having the highest with 20, and then you're going to be looking at basically 01 or 02 after that. So, if you take into consideration the top ones in each category, under our normal scoring traditions that received over the 16 votes, certainly the gold 02 received, you know, the 19, and then there was no clear-cut on the reverse. But there was 21 for the -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 69 I'm sorry, 21 gold -- I had the wrong sheet. Going back to the gold, 02A had the highest, with 21, which is certainly way above the 16. Then you would have the 02 on the reverse, which had met the 16. Then, going to the silver, you have 19 being the highest with 02. The reverse of the silver, nothing was clear in regards to any kind of -- hitting 16, the magic number. Then, the clad 09 had 22. So, that's, once again, very close to our 2A on the gold. then hitting the 17 was 05, of the clad. you go to the 06, it had 20. And And then if So, there's your summary of the leaders. So, why don't we open it up for discussion? And Greg, thank you for collecting everything and doing the tally. Let's have some discussion, then, and why don't we start off with Mike. If we look at the highest ranked one, please. MR. MORAN: Did you say Mike? CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. MORAN: Yes. Oh, thanks. CHAIRMAN URAM: Mike, if you're not www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 70 quite ready, I mean, I'll move -MR. MORAN: say. No, I do have one thing to And then I'm going to pass it along. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. MORAN: Okay. On the gold, between design 2 and 2A, everybody gave 2A the 21 points. But there are three central design elements in 2A, the man, the woman, and the folded flag. $5 gold piece. that. That's one too many for a We're making a mistake if we choose It's too cluttered -- I won't say too cluttered, but it's too busy for a nickel. Design 2 with the single officer holding the folded flag will show up much better with negative space on a $5 gold piece. Other than that, Tom, come back to me. Because I'm still clicking through these things, to see what everybody has chosen and where I am on some of these. I will say that I like the concept of the toy star paired with the fingerprint and the magnifying glass for, possibly, the clad coin. can't find the tin star yet. I I was clicking through there when you called my name. I went oh, great, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 71 thanks, Tom. CHAIRMAN URAM: No, that's okay. Let me -- that's fine. MR. MORAN: I'll yell if I need -- CHAIRMAN URAM: I know what you're saying about number 2, and I agree. if that goes with the gold. I think that -- Now, don't forget, we can eventually decide the pairings. MR. MORAN: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: That's what we want to be looking at. MR. MORAN: Yeah. CHAIRMAN URAM: So, you're saying that particular pairing. MR. MORAN: clad, then fine. Yeah. If it goes to the The clad or the silver. can do all three elements. All right. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. MORAN: MR. TUCKER: Then you Perfect. I'm done. Mr. Chair, this is Dennis. CHAIRMAN URAM: I was just going to call on you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 72 MR. TUCKER: Yeah. Could I request five minutes for us to quietly review these results and then -- you know, just three or four or five minutes. And then -CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. TUCKER: discussion? That will be fine. -- jump into our Thank you, sir. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. We'll be in recess for five minutes. (Off the record.) CHAIRMAN URAM: Also, why don't we start back out with Mike Moran. MR. MORAN: Mike? Okay, Tom. Going back to my comment on the star and the magnifying glass, that's on the clad. reverse 6. It's clad 09, obverse 9 and I think those actually are appropriate for the clad coin. I think they'll sell well. they have a broad appeal. I think And I think they need to stay where they are on the scoring sheet. And with that, I'll pass the mic over to Dennis. CHAIRMAN URAM: And I agree with you, Mike. Okay, Dennis, go ahead. I think Mary originally www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 73 paired those, and I think that that's a great pairing. We'll see what everyone else has to say. MR. TUCKER: thanks, Mike. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And And I appreciate the extra time to just quietly collect my thoughts. that. Dennis? Thank you for I'm happy with the gold and I'm happy with the half-dollar. I think the gold satisfies the way I was thinking of the program needing a memorial coin. And for the half-dollar, I like the challenge coin concept and approach. And I think we've got a nice set of designs for that coin. For the silver, I envision that coin as the one that addresses the issue of community and connection between law enforcement and the civilian communities that they serve. And I don't think the combination that we've ranked highest meets that purpose. I think that obverse 2, which was our highest rank, it's too inward facing. It's too much about police departments, police officers, and law enforcement. And it's really -- I mean, it's a beautiful design, and I did give it some points myself. But, I think it's too much of the memorial www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 74 concept, rather than community. And the reverse, silver dollar reverse 5 was our highest ranked. I think that's fine. It does include the words Protector of Our Community. My preference will still be, for the silver dollar, obverse 5, which shows the police officer kneeling in a vigilant pose protecting a boy who might not even be aware that he's being protected. He is paused in his basketball game, and he's reading a book. In other words, he's going about his life -- his normal civilian life. And he has this protective force that is keeping him safe. community aspect. coin. To me, that addresses the So, the memorial coin is the gold The half-dollar is a challenge coin. And the silver dollar -- I really think it needs a stronger sense of community, and I think obverse 5 does that. I'm just taking a look now at reverse 5, and seeing if that -- reverse 5 feels a bit repetitive, just with the inscriptions to protect and serve. So, that one -- for the reverse of a silver dollar, I had recommended reverse 13, which I think ties together with obverse 5 and builds that sense of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 75 community. It shows a police officer shaking hands with a civilian, who appears to be a minority man. And again, just to repeat my remarks from earlier, either one of those men could be the boy from the obverse. Police officer -- that boy could have grown up to be this police officer, or he might be the man who is shaking his hand. So, those are my thoughts, Mr. Chair. I think that the silver dollar needs to be a stronger voice for connection between police officers and the community they serve. And I recommend obverse 5 and reverse 13. CHAIRMAN URAM: you. Okay, Dennis. Thank Keep in mind that clad obverse 6, which is the officer saluting with the K-9, received 20 points. And to me, I thought that would make for a nice silver dollar, in regards to putting together the community aspect of it. And I agree with the clad pairing and the gold, whether it be 2 or 2A. It is busy, as Michael said, so I would lean more towards the 2, because I just think that's a whole lot to put on a gold piece. I know what we're trying to do, but I www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 76 don't think we want to force it, either. But, I'd ask that we look at clad obverse 6 for the silver dollar, since we did have that as a high-ranking, along with the window -- the back window pane from the other design. So, those are my couple of thoughts. Mary, do you have some thoughts? review this whole. And we don't need to We're just looking for thoughts here. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Okay. This just sort of serves to confuse a lot of things. Obviously, I'm going to stick with the clad with my suggestion of 09 for the obverse and 06 for the reverse, as kind of a challenge coin sort of a thing. But, it seems that we are -- by going medal by medal, like gold, silver, and clad, we are perhaps not paying attention to what the CFA said. And what the liaison prefers. And so, I was basing my choices on having each of the reverses mention the Law Enforcement Museum. So, I would like to stick with my initial choices, which -- and I'm waiting for somebody to actually make a motion, so it kind of clears everything up. We're not really able www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 77 to go through the choices as quickly as we can on a computer. So, to the silver coin, I would still like to stick with the clad obverse 12A, which is the horse leaning down to look at the dog, and the dog handler and the puppy, as a choice. And I would like to stick with the clad reverse 01 for the silver. For the gold, I guess I'm still sticking with silver 02 and reverse gold 03A. So, together just in a group. So, I'm really waiting for some motions for this. This is rather confusing. Thanks. CHAIRMAN URAM: That's my comment. Thank you. Are there any other thoughts, or would anyone like to make a motion at this point? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes, Tom. would like to have some input on the gold. I I agree with what Mike says, that it's quite a lot of information on the one that is chosen. However, could we possibly change one of those to the piece that has the flag and the gloved hands? ways that we could do that. So, there's like two We could use that one because it has -- for the gold obverse, I think is www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 78 what I'm trying to get to, I do think we need to address -CHAIRMAN URAM: You're talking about gold obverse 2, which is just a single individual. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN URAM: Yes. All right. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: We can do that. Or, we can actually go to -- I'm trying to find this. I think it's -- we could also do the silver obverse 10, which has, you know, the museum. Somehow, I'd love to get the museum on one of these coins. And the other thing that we could do is we have one medal -let me try and find this. I'm sorry, this is Jeanne StevensSollman speaking right now, or trying to speak. Okay. I'm just going to have to -- I can't seem to find that. I'm sorry. But, there is one coin where we have the two officers -- just two officers in salute. No lion, no -- oh, I can't find that one -- no, no flag, just saluting with a rose. And to me, if we paired that with the piece with, you know, the mosaic floor, where it says Remember, and using Dennis's www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 79 idea, I think that would probably -- oh, here it is. As silver 02, if we could use that, maybe we'd have a good remembrance coin for this. CHAIRMAN URAM: this. Okay. Okay. Why don't we do The silver 02 was the other one. If we use, though, 02 on the gold, with the single individual, those are pretty close. How about this. Let's do the first one first, because I think there seems to be agreement. Why don't we have -- would someone like to make a motion on the clad? That you do 09 and 06? that motion? Mary, would you want to make Mary? DR. BROWN: Brown. Mary? Mr. Chair, this is Lawrence And Mary, are you there? I just want to -- MS. LANNIN: I'm -- DR. BROWN: Go ahead. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. LANNIN: Mary, are you there? Yeah, I'm sorry. I accidentally hung up in the middle of what Jeanne was saying. now. So, I'm not prepared to make a motion right I was about to tell her that the coin that she was looking for was the silver obverse 2, with the two www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 80 officers. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. LANNIN: Okay. CHAIRMAN URAM: this. Right. Right. So -- But, why don't we do Why don't we make a motion on the clad first? There seems to be agreement on 09 and 06, and would you like -MS. LANNIN: Lannin. Okay. This is Mary I would like to make a motion that we use clad obverse 09 and clad reverse 06 for the halfdollar coin. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. There's a motion -MR. MORAN: Yeah. And this is Mike Moran, and I'll second. CHAIRMAN URAM: Mike Moran seconds. Any further discussion? DR. BROWN: Brown. Mr. Chair, this is Lawrence Can we hear the motion once more, again? CHAIRMAN URAM: Sure. The motion is made by Mary, seconded by Michael, for the half-dollar clad, that the obverse choice would be 09 and the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 81 reverse would be 06. received 20. And 09 received 22 votes, and 06 So, they were the highest given anyhow. But, we did review other possibilities. seems to be an agreement on that. motion currently. But, there So, that's the Any further discussion? Hearing none, I'm going to take a roll call vote. MR. TUCKER: Actually, Mr. Chair, I do have one -- this is Dennis Tucker, and I do have one thing I'd like to discuss about reverse 6. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. TUCKER: Go ahead. Oh, thank you. apologize for not bringing this up earlier. And I But, the legend National Law Enforcement appears to be an abbreviation of National Law Enforcement Museum. But without the word Museum, I think it gives too much weight to national law enforcement, and people who are involved in local and state law enforcement might wonder why that extra weight is being given there. I think it's almost like a typographical error, if you look at it that way, and the legend should actually just be Law Enforcement. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 82 CHAIRMAN URAM: Joe? Joe, would you like to make a comment, if that would be corrected. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: up. You're breaking I couldn't hear you. MR. MENNA: So, I got lost. We're looking at which one? MR. TUCKER: This is Dennis Tucker. The clad. MR. MENNA: What? MR. TUCKER: 06. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. MENNA: 06. CHAIRMAN URAM: The reverse. That's correct. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. MENNA: 06. Yeah. Yes. I'm sorry. I think it would be a stretch to try and fit Museum in there, without making the text very, very small. MR. TUCKER: MR. MENNA: MR. TUCKER: suggesting. Right. This is Dennis -- Unless you put -That was not what I was What I was suggesting was remove the word National, and just have Law Enforcement. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 83 MR. MENNA: That could work. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Museum in there? After Law -- MR. MENNA: No. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. MENNA: MR. TUCKER: again. Can you put No? I don't think so. I think -- this is Dennis Including the emblem of the museum is a graphical or symbolic way to represent the museum itself, without having the word museum. And in that case, the word National reveals itself to just be an accidental, inappropriate abbreviation of the phrase National Law Enforcement Museum. National doesn't belong there anymore than saying Local Law Enforcement or State Law Enforcement would. It's too exclusive. We need to broaden it, and just say Law Enforcement, because the coin is addressing all levels and aspects of law enforcement. Not just national. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN URAM: And can I -- Uh, Jeanne, state your name. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Oh, sorry. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 84 Jeanne Stevens-Sollman. And I would like to ask our stakeholder how they feel about that text. CHAIRMAN URAM: Is Margaret or Marcia - MS. FERRANTO: Marcia Ferranto. Yeah. So, this is Thank you for pointing this out, because it was something that did cause us pause, that this coin did not mention the memorial or the museum. We do recognize that the logo is on here at the bottom, which helps. But, I think it still remains rather vague. DR. BROWN: Mr. Chair, this is Lawrence Brown. CHAIRMAN URAM: DR. BROWN: Yes, Dr. Brown. I must confess that I really was impressed by one of our members who mentioned about the concepts, about memorial, community and challenge. The motion that's in front of us, I must confess, I would probably not vote in favor of, because if it doesn't have Museum in there -- and that symbol, while probably known to a lot of people, it probably would be lost on the general www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 85 public. So, I think that if we can't cure that to, in fact, have Museum, then I would probably not think that that would be something that would be wellreceived, because if you have National Law Enforcement or just Law Enforcement, I'm not sure we're getting what I understand is the feeling from the stakeholders, and I think the way that it may be appreciated in the public may not be in the best interests. MS. STAFFORD: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. STAFFORD: All right. This is April. I just wanted to -- I wonder a question for our liaison, Ms. Ferranto. And obviously this would just be an additional point for the committee members to consider. Clad reverse 6, which is in discussion currently, has the additional inscription of "Respect, Honor, and Remember." I wonder if Ms. Ferranto, in pursuit of including Memorial and Museum, or Museum, would be okay with removing that additional inscription. MS. FERRANTO: I think that is an www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 86 option. I'd like to go back and take a look at the others, to see if -- especially the gold, if we're looking at that for the memorial to see if we have those words in there. So, give me a moment. APRIL STAFFORD: No problem. There's a lot of shuffling. MR. MORAN: Tom, this is Mike. Mike Moran. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. MORAN: Okay. If you look at obverse 9, across the top the inscription "Serve and Protect" is there. You could very easily -CHAIRMAN URAM: Obverse 9, where? Obverse 9, which -MR. MORAN: Clad obverse 9. Which is the obverse of the motion. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. MORAN: Okay. You could substitute those phrases for the phrase "Serve and Protect" across the top of that coin. And then strictly have the National Law Enforcement Museum stand alone at the base of the reverse. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 87 MS. LANNIN: Mike, I'm confused. I thought we were talking about -- this is Mary Lannin. I thought we were talking about clad reverse 06, which is part of my motion. And I would like -- MR. MORAN: Yeah, we are. I'm saying if you go to clad obverse 9, which is the other part of your motion -MS. LANNIN: you said reverse 9. I thought Okay. MR. MORAN: Mary. Oh, I'm sorry. There's no telling. No. Well, I could have, But, if you take that "Respect, Honor, and Remember" and put that over on the obverse -- on the -- as the inscription at the top -- across the top of the obverse, instead of "Serve and Protect", then you have room to put National Law Enforcement Museum in there in two lines, on the reverse. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. LANNIN: Joe -- So, what you're saying, Mike, is to swap -- if I understand you correctly -MR. MORAN: MS. LANNIN: Yes. No, no, no. Swap -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 88 MR. MORAN: No, I'm not saying swap. I'm saying drop "Serve and Protect" entirely. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. And then put National Law Enforcement Museum in place of "Serve and Protect". And then -MR. MORAN: No, no, no, no. No. No, I was going to put it -- I'm open to that, but I was going to put National Law Enforcement Museum on the reverse. Because you're going to have to get it into two lines, I think. But, take "Respect, Honor, and Remember" off of the reverse, and put it onto the obverse in place of "Serve and Protect." DR. KOTLOWSKI: Tom? CHAIRMAN URAM: Yes. Go ahead. Who was that? DR. DEAN KOLOWSKI: It was Dean. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. State your name. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Mary -- well, Mr. Chairman, I would be in favor of keeping "Serve and Protect" on clad obverse 9, because it gives it a sense of power. And it has this kind of pop cultural implicit reference to Dragnet. And I would be in www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 89 favor of clad reverse 6, just simply removing "Respect, Honor, and Remember," and putting the word "Museum" underneath. Because I do think it's vague. I think with the other coins, we should think about how we convey respect and honor and remember, rather than simply say it. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. That makes sense. MR. GILL: Mr. Chairman, this is Sam Gill. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. GILL: with Dean and the doctor. Yes, Sam. Go ahead. I agree with Dean. I agree I think they're both right. And I think that's a good solution. CHAIRMAN URAM: Yes. Okay. So, why don't we -- Mary, are you willing to amend -MS. LANNIN: Would you like to -- okay. So, as I understand -CHAIRMAN URAM: Are you willing to amend the -MS. LANNIN: As I understand, we leave "Serve and Protect" on clad obverse 9. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 90 CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. LANNIN: No change. Correct? No change. And on clad reverse 06, I see half-dollar, I see "United States of America," and underneath that I see "National Law Enforcement" and "E Pluribus Unum." That's what I see. MR. TUCKER: This is Dennis. You're looking at an old -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes, that's the old -- confused. MR. TUCKER: -- version, I believe. MS. LANNIN: Okay. MR. TUCKER: And I was, as well. MS. LANNIN: No wonder we're so Okay. Let me figure out if I can find where that would be. the redo? What was the date of that -- of So I can look on the -MR. TUCKER: September 18. MS. LANNIN: September 18. So I can look on the -- it's being there, can you tell? September 15th? MR. TUCKER: 18, I believe. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 91 MS. LANNIN: I thought it said 15. MS. WARREN: Mary, I'm going to send it right now, again. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Thank you. This is supposed to be the simple one, you guys. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Very true. Very true. MS. LANNIN: Remember? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Stevens-Sollman speaking. This is Jeanne If "Respect, Honor, and Remember" were removed and "National Law Enforcement Museum and Memorial" put in its place, would that be acceptable? CHAIRMAN URAM: have plenty of room. I would think you'd Joe? MS. LANNIN: I still haven't gotten it, MS. WARREN: I just sent it a second Jennifer. ago. Two documents, the PDF and the Word version. CHAIRMAN URAM: Joe, is there any room to do what Jeanne just mentioned? MS. WARREN: I may also send you the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 92 contact. MS. LANNIN: Okay. So, I will trust you if you say that there is enough room. don't have it. I still If there is enough room to remove those and to insert National Law Enforcement Museum in its place, I am good with that. CHAIRMAN URAM: no problem. Okay. There should be That's a whole line, and there's plenty of room there. MS. LANNIN: Okay. would be my recommendation. Okay. Okay. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. So, that That's my motion. We're amending your motion, now, to state that we're going to go with clad obverse 9 and reverse 6, with reverse 6 amended to say National Law Enforcement Museum in place of "Respect, Honor, and Remember." by Michael. Michael, do you agree with that? MR. MORAN: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: take a vote. And we have a second Okay. I'm going to That should help the situation. MS. FERRANTO: Excuse me, real quick. Excuse me, real quick. This is Marcia Ferranto. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Is Meeting September 23, 2020 93 there any way you can consider doing Memorial and Museum? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: -- this is Jeanne speaking. Yes. That was my Yes, that was my idea, to put both of them on that line . CHAIRMAN URAM: that will be fine. That will be -- yeah, I would think you have plenty of room there. MR. MORAN: Yeah. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. MORAN: For the record -- That actually works better. MARCIA FERRANTO: Memorial would go first. CHAIRMAN URAM: Pardon me, Marcia? MARCIA FERRANTO: first. Memorial would go It would be Memorial and Museum. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Okay. So, for the record, it would say Memorial and Museum. going to take a vote. And I'm Now, this is for the clad half. Dr. Brown, yes or no. DR. BROWN: Mr. Chair, I'm going to have to abstain, because I don't see -- I don't have www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 94 the version that will allow me to be able to say that with confidence. So, I'm going to have to abstain, because I haven't seen it. CHAIRMAN URAM: No problem. Mike Moran? MR. MORAN: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. LANNIN: Mary Lannin? Yes. And Dr. Brown, I can tell you that I've seen the new one and that there is enough room to do what the motion has requested. I am voting yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. SALMON: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. GILL: Sam? Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. TUCKER: Okay, Robin. Dennis Tucker. Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: Dean? DR. KOTLOWSKI: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: Jeanne. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN URAM: Yes. Peter. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 So, Meeting September 23, 2020 95 DR. VAN ALFEN: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: The chair votes yes. Dr. Brown, do you want to remain abstained? fine by me. It's your call. It's But, I just wanted to clarify with Mary mentioning that. DR. BROWN: I love Mary to death, there's no question about it, but I'm going to still abstain because -MS. LANNIN: DR. BROWN: MS. LANNIN: DR. BROWN: No, that's whatever --- I haven't seen --- you're --- with these two eyes. CHAIRMAN URAM: DR. BROWN: Okay. No problem. Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: abstain, one not voting. Sure. We have nine yeses, one The motion passes. Let's move on to the gold. Let's have a discussion regarding the gold. DR. VAN ALFEN: Go ahead. This is Peter. I'd like to consider Jeanne's suggestion to move silver obverse 2, which has the jugates of man and woman saluting, to be considered for the obverse of the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 96 gold, instead of gold obverse 2A. One of the reasons I would support this, I think that silver obverse 2 does a much better job of conveying and symbolizing diversity, as well as, sort of, equal pairing between -- or, equal standing between the man and the woman, than gold obverse 2A does. And also, I'm much more partial to profile views than three-quarter views. I think that they are conveyed better in this sort of this context than -- or, in a numismatic context than a lot of the three-quarter views. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. Okay. So, for clarification, you'd like to keep silver -- which one, silver what? DR. VAN ALFEN: Silver obverse 2 to be considered for the observe of the gold, replacing gold obverse 2A. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Any other further discussion on that, as far as comparing with the gold 2 and 2A basically have 21 points. DR. BROWN: Mr. Chair, this is Lawrence Brown. CHAIRMAN URAM: Yes. Go ahead, Dr. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 97 Brown. DR. BROWN: I would be happy to offer a motion to the effect of what my colleague said. think that does make a lot of sense. the respect. I It allows for It allows for diversity. So, I would certainly support that, and indeed if you need a motion I could provide it. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. So, if you'd like to make a motion that would be silver obverse 2 for the gold. And we have a motion by Dr. Brown. Do we have a second by Peter, then? DR. VAN ALFEN: MR. TUCKER: this is Dennis Tucker. Yes. Mr. Chair? Mr. Chair, I'd like to just add one point of discussion before that motion is considered. CHAIRMAN URAM: to vote yet. Well, we're not going We're just getting a second at this point, before we can discuss. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. LANNIN: I second. This is Mary. I will second it. CHAIRMAN URAM: I think Peter had www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 98 jumped in there. DR. VAN ALFEN: second. Yeah, yeah, I did So, that's fine. CHAIRMAN URAM: for discussion. So, now, we are open Dennis? MR. TUCKER: thank you, Mr. Chair. Oh, I just wanted to -- I just wanted to say that -- and this is not an objection at all. that's a fine idea. I think that I just wanted to say that Mike, I might push back a little bit on your observation that gold obverse 2A has too much going on, or that it's too packed with imagery. You look at some of the most recent $5 gold pieces. They can be pretty complex. There's a lot of detailed that could be packed into that little canvas. Look at the American Legion $5 gold coin from 2019. Even the obverse of the 2020 basketball gold coin. So, I don't think that the design itself in the obverse 2A would be a problem. Having said that, though, I think that Peter's idea of replacing and using obverse 2 from the silver dollar is fine as well. That's a nice memorial www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 99 design, and I think it satisfies the memorial aspect of this gold piece. CHAIRMAN URAM: you. Okay, Dennis, thank And then, for the reverse of the gold, we have reverse 2 was the high vote-getter. Which was the stylized view of the paving stone, which would probably be -- if you feel you would want to look at that silver dollar. But it certainly is appropriate with the gold as well. It might be very nice. Would either of the -- Mike, go ahead. MR. MORAN: This is Mike Moran. I'd just like to put one more plug in for reverse 7, because I think it's very well done. And very appropriate for a gold coin. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Whose phone is not on mute? MR. GILL: Mr. Chairman, this is Sam Gill. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. GILL: just said about 07? Go ahead, Sam. Could I just echo what Mike It really captures the sacrifice and -- with the roses and the flag. I don't know what www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 100 02 captures, except a design. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: is Jeanne Stevens-Sollman speaking. Excuse me, this Sam, I believe that design is not just a design, but it is part of the museum, the floor. MR. GILL: Yes, I understand that. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: And it would -- in my opinion, because of the small planchet of the gold, you know, it would make -- I think it would make a great coin. And we also have Remember, which goes with our sacrifice, with the two officers. So, in my opinion, that is what I think would make a strong coin. I agree with you with the flag. It is a very beautiful piece. CHAIRMAN URAM: paving as well. I agree, and I like the But maybe in the pairings, as it goes, maybe since the gold and you have the two officers on the gold, maybe it's more appropriate to have the -- the planchet size, I think, for the flag and the roses would pop on the gold, and maybe we use -- I think the mosaic would pop on the silver, Jeanne, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 101 if we want to look at it that way. I think that would really be a bold silver coin. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN URAM: Yes, go ahead. DR. KOTLOWSKI: This is Dean. CHAIRMAN URAM: Go ahead. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Dean Kotlowski, for the Who is this? liaisons and the press. I'm becoming more and more persuaded by what Mike and Sam and, Mr. Chairman, you just said. I do like obverse 2 for the gold. And then we could go with reverse 7, again for the gold. And but I want to think about what we're going to do with the silver. Because I still have this attraction to showing the actual museum, which is more meaningful. And I wonder if we might have to make a choice between reverse 2 and obverse 10, and which best represents the museum. Or we put them together for the silver -- I'm talking about for the silver. The silver obverse 10 with the reverse obverse 2 for the gold. That may be too museum heavy, and we don't have the community www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 102 in this as much. So, if we're going to come down to a choice between this really nice design of gold reverse 2 and silver obverse 10, to represent the museum, I think showing the actual museum is going to be more meaningful to the public. And that's where I would come down. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay, Dean. And I think if we did -- let's just talk about that a second. If we did -- I don't think it's too museum. And it is community. Because it is both, and that's what you want to -- you know, you want to emphasize the museum just as much. And so, you have the building and you have the floor. And when the literature comes out, that will complement it. So, I kind of lean more towards what Sam and Mike and everyone was just talking about, of putting the roses with the flag that go with the people. Their sacrifice. It ties the gold together. And then, going with the museum with the silver, because, you know, the silver is the largest. building is the largest. The You know, not to say that the people aren't the largest, which they are, but it www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 103 represents the people and those that served. MR. TUCKER: Dennis Tucker. Well, Mr. Chair, this is I have to object to that, because then we're completely removing humanity from this suite of six designs. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Right. Yes. MR. TUCKER: We end up with no hand shaking, no connection between police and civilians, and we end up simply with the physicality of a building. No offense to the museum and the memorial, I understand that that physicality is important. But we've also talked a lot today about addressing the time that we're living in. And I really think that we need to have a human connection, and I think that human connection should be displayed on the silver dollar. CHAIRMAN URAM: do this. Okay. So, why don't we That's fine. DR. BROWN: Mr. Chair, I have a motion. This is Lawrence Brown. CHAIRMAN URAM: Why don't we do this www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 104 first. Let's stick with the gold. And let's go ahead, and there's a motion, I believe. DR. BROWN: Brown. Right? Mr. Chair, this is Lawrence I can modify my motion to reflect the sentiments. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. All right. Go ahead. DR. BROWN: So, my motion would be that we would take the silver 02 and place it on the obverse for the gold. And that we would have the reverse of the gold to be the gold reverse 7. CHAIRMAN URAM: Correct. That's where I thought -- that's fine. Okay. There we go. So, I now need to ask Peter if you're okay with that modification. DR. VAN ALFEN: Yes. No, in fact, Sam's point is well taken, and as are everybody else's. I do think reverse 7 would be a fine pairing to silver obverse 2, for the gold. So, I'm happy to second that motion. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. So, the amendment has been made, and so without further www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 105 discussion I'm going to take a vote. So, we must first -MS. SALMON: This is Robin. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. SALMON: Yes, Robin. This is Robin. I want to point out using that pairing you've got roses on both sides of the coin. MS. LANNIN: great. Robin, I think that's This is Mary. MS. SALMON: You think that's good? MS. LANNIN: Yeah, I do. MS. SALMON: Well, okay. I still want to hold out for the floor. MR. TUCKER: Robin, this is Dennis. Mr. Chair, if I might reply to that. I had the same thought, and I was a little bit concerned about that repetition. But, then, the more I thought about it it bothered me less and less. design. I also love the floor I think that's one way to get the physicality of the museum's landscape into the coin. But, I do think that the coffin flag is a wonderful symbol for memorial. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 106 MS. STAFFORD: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. STAFFORD: Go ahead. Sorry, this is April. I just wanted to share, and I'll ask Megan Sullivan and Boneza Hanchock to confirm, when we were at the Commission of Fine Arts and they were discussing silver obverse 2, they talked about the -- and they actually recommended this for the gold obverse, they talked about the idea that this design could do without that rose, to allow for the portraits to fill up that space a little more. So, I just wanted to share that with the committee, in case they would like to consider that as they move forward. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Thank you. With that being said, Joe, would you like to comment on that? What was just brought up. MR. MENNA: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. MENNA: deliberations. On removing the rose. I listened to those I think the terminus of each portrait would work well that way. I think it would look good. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Going back to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 107 Dr. Brown, Dr. Brown, would you have any problem with your motion stating removing the obverse rose? DR. BROWN: Brown. Mr. Chair, this is Lawrence I have no objection. So, I will so revise my motion so that it reflects the removal of the rose on the obverse that we're trying to place on the gold. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Peter, are you DR. VAN ALFEN: I am affirmative. affirmative? agree. I So, I second. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. And Robin, thank you for that observation, and the others that did as well. So, with that, if there's no further discussion, we will now vote on the 02 and the 07 with modifications. Dr. Brown? DR. BROWN: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. MORAN: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. LANNIN: Mary Lannin? Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. SALMON: Michael Moran? Robin? I'm now happy. Yes. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 108 CHAIRMAN URAM: yet. Robin, it's not over We've got to get the floor. MR. GILL: Sam? Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. TUCKER: Okay. Dennis? Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: Dean? DR. KOTLOWSKI: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: Peter? DR. VAN ALFEN: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: The chairman is yes. We have ten yeses, and one nonvoting. Thank you very much. Motion passes. I think it will be a very nice coin. Now, in the discussion for the silver, in the dialogue that I've already heard -- and I don't want to be repetitive, and we can take it from here, but if -- some of the thoughts were to create and still have some people involved. And I think it was the boy reading the book and the police officer looking over him, which I think would make a great www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 109 part of the silver medal. And then the floor, because the floor would be what they would be on, let's say. Plus, it represents the museum. thought. Now, that's just my I will now open it up for discussion. Dennis? MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, what you just mentioned would be pairing silver obverse 5 with gold reverse 2. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. TUCKER: That's correct. Correct? CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Obverse 5 with reverse 2. MR. TUCKER: Okay. My only hesitation there is that gold reverse 2 is a memorial design. has the word Remember in it. It And we have satisfied our memorial aspect of this program with the gold coin. So, I would like to double down with the silver dollar and really make it about community and connection. So, I still would like to support obverse 5, which has the boy being protected by the police officers with reverse 13 -- silver reverse 13, which depicts a handshake between an officer and a member of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 110 the public. CHAIRMAN URAM: again? Which one was that, Reverse 13? MR. TUCKER: Yes. So, it would be silver obverse 5 and silver reverse 13. CHAIRMAN URAM: I'd like to have other members of the committee -- I do like the boy there, but I think we just have too many people now. okay if we don't use the floor. up. But, let's open it So, there's Dennis's thought. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: this is Jeanne Stevens-Sollman. And I'm It was R-13. Mr. Chairman, I think that the silver, although I agree with what Dennis said, I think what you said is very appropriate. That we just have too many people, although that's -- you know, the boy and the police officer is good. If we do that, then we do not address the K-9 part of this law enforcement museum. to do that. And I really think it's important So, on silver, I think we need to look at clad obverse 12A. Hello? CHAIRMAN URAM: Yes. Go ahead. obverse 12A. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Clad Meeting September 23, 2020 111 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: obverse. Yes. For the And then for the reverse, maybe we look at Sacrifice, clad obverse 1. Although that didn't garner very many points. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. LANNIN: The one thing -- Mr. Chair, this is Mary Lannin. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. LANNIN: Go ahead, Mary. And I just wanted to agree with Jeanne, on addressing the K-9 element. And also to remember that the liaison's preference for the silver coin was clad obverse 12A. CHAIRMAN URAM: good point. Thank you. Correct. And that's a And I think if you do go with 12A, you've had all of the elements in. You have people, you have the K-9, you have all the elements that would be appropriate on a silver dollar. agree with that. So, I would tend to There's -- MR. TUCKER: Dennis Tucker again. But, Mr. Chair, this is Clad obverse 12A is completely inward looking, to use that term again. police officers. Those are all Even the animals are police www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 112 officers. There is no civilian aspect here. How does that address the issue of community? CHAIRMAN URAM: Well, I think the obverse -- people can speak on that as well. But, I think the obverse plus the other things that we've done -- but go ahead, if anyone else would like to make -DR. KOTLOWSKI: Mr. Chairman, this is CHAIRMAN URAM: Go ahead. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Yeah. Dean. I want to follow up on what Dennis said and what I said before, about representing the museum. And I don't want to put it in these stark terms, but I do think it's either the building or the floor. building. And I'm in favor of the I want to point something out to you all, that for the clad coin -- and I know we've done the clad, but just looking at the design, the liaison preferred the little girl and the officer and the hat, and was proposing the building as a reverse. And I don't know if this -- how this is going to work or how it's going to fly. Dennis, I actually did not like www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 113 initially the officer and the little boy, because I thought it was too parental. I thought that that was kind of a domestic scene, of a father and a son. But, you persuaded me about, you know, a larger theme here about protecting the innocent. So, I would be willing to go with that as the obverse for the silver. And then taking, for the reverse, silver obverse 10, maybe removing the word "Liberty," and putting in there "Honor, Respect, and Remember." And there on one single coin, you have -- you're saying an awful lot. too much. Maybe you're saying But you're almost telling the whole story. On the one side, you have "Serve and Protect." And on the other, you have the museum and the mission of the museum, and what we're supposed to do with law enforcement, which is to respect, honor and remember. You have remember also -- tying this together with my little essay, you have Remember on the gold, the first coin, and you have "Serve and Protect" on the challenge coin. CHAIRMAN URAM: very good point. Okay, Dean. That's a Is there any other discussion? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 And Meeting September 23, 2020 114 I agree. I think the building, from the stakeholders' point of view also, is extremely important, whether it's the building or the floor. But, it seems like the building is more prevalent based on the other selections at this point. MR. GILL: Any further discussion? Mr. Chairman, this is Sam Gill. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN URAM: Yes, Mr. Chair. Go ahead. I didn't hear who was first. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Mr. Chair, this is Jeanne Stevens-Sollman speaking again. If we do that, I think perhaps we could have the human element within the building. I mean, the officers are protecting the building. And so, I rather disagree with Dennis where he says everything inward and we're having only police officers, K-9 and handler, and the rider. I think we really need to put the animals in there. So, if we had the animals, which garnered quite a lot of -- you know, the most points here, 19, I think we could put the building -- the museum on the reverse of that, where we have human elements in an www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 115 abstract form. MR. TUCKER: Jeanne, this is Dennis. CHAIRMAN URAM: Hold on. Hold on one second. I want to -- so, Jeanne, are you suggesting 12A, with obverse 10, the building -- in other words, the horse and the -- everybody there, with the building -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes, I'm pairing the horse on the one side with the dog. the horse and the dog, how great. I mean, I get And the building, which I think is a real important aspect of this portfolio. So, I believe that we would be addressing the community within the building, and the law enforcement elements in the K-9. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. LANNIN: Lannin. Yes, and I -- Mr. Chair, this is Mary I would like to ask the liaison a question. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. LANNIN: Go ahead. In my research about the National Law Enforcement Museum, it's my understanding that it's mostly underground. Is that not correct? MARCIA FERRANTO: That's correct. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 116 MS. LANNIN: So, therefore, this building that's pictured on silver obverse 10 is just kind of like a shell covering what's really underneath the ground. And I don't know -MARCIA FERRANTO: Not exactly. Well, actually, yeah. We do have a very stunning presence aboveground. MS. LANNIN: Okay. MARCIA FERRANTO: So, we have created a campus in Washington, DC, where you have the memorial on one side. But it's very apparent when you look across the street on this glass building that it is a law enforcement museum. MS. LANNIN: Okay. MARCIA FERRANTO: DR. BROWN: Brown. Thanks. Okay. Mr. Chair, this is Lawrence I have a comment, if I could offer. CHAIRMAN URAM: DR. BROWN: Certainly. So, I must confess that I lean in the direction of Dennis's comments. I think the silver should be able to represent the humanity. I do understand my colleagues who, in fact, want to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 117 also have some representation of the museum. With respect to the humanity, I certainly can support the obverse of the silver 5 or the clad obverse 4. I think they both have that humanity. I think with respect to my colleagues who, in fact, made some very persuasive arguments with respect to the horse and the dog, that's the clad obverse 12A, I'd like just to share with my colleagues that in policing if we are looking at this coin, and as much as we want to support national law enforcement, we've had a time during our history when the use of dogs have not been always felt to be terribly humane and respectful. So, I would suggest to be mindful of that as we, in fact, go forward. Because once this coin is minted, and provided to the public, how that's going to land with them may very well depend -- there's going to be, clearly, some dog lovers. it. There's no question about But, law enforcement and dogs sometimes does not get the appropriate landing that we would like it to have. So, in that respect I'm certainly receptive to, in fact, a compromise, to have some humanity on the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 118 obverse, and to have some reflection of the museum on the reverse. Thank you. DR. VAN ALFEN: Mr. Chairman, this is Peter van Alfen. CHAIRMAN URAM: Go ahead, Peter. DR. VAN ALFEN: I have to admit, I'm not particularly fond of silver obverse 5 as a design. But I think Dennis's points are well taken. I would certainly be willing to move forward with that as the obverse, in the sense of trying to underscore this notion of community. And I think if we were to pair that obverse with what seems to be the preferred reverse for the silver, either 5 or 6 -- you know, the handshake -- that, again, would, you know, really drive home, you know, the notion of community and, you know, the bond between, you know, law enforcement and community. Of course, that would mean that, you know, the references to the museum -- you know, the physical, would be put aside. But, you know, I think if we were to agree that, you know, the notion or, you know, the theme behind the silver half-dollar should www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 119 be community, then, you know, we should focus on designs that reflect that. MS. SALMON: Thank you. Mr. Chair, this is Robin. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. SALMON: Go ahead, Robin. Robin Salmon. I agree with everything that has been said about community. I do think that clad obverse 4, with the kneeling officer and the young girl, is a better design than silver obverse 5. message. It's cleaner. It still conveys the And then, to pair that with one of the handshake reverses, either 5 or 6, seems to make the most sense to me. Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: obverse 4 is much cleaner. which handshake? I agree with That's for sure. And That was reverse -- what -- does someone have that reverse? or 6. Okay. Oh, I see. It's reverse 5 Okay. So, our discussion is basically this at this point. You have 05 -- the clad -- excuse me, the silver obverse 5, which is the policeman with the young child reading the book, as being the obverse. Then you have the law enforcement officer kneeling www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 120 with the young girl, and that's in consideration for the obverse. For the reverse, you have consideration of the silver 10, which is the building, or number 5 or 6, which is the handshake, the badge, and so forth. All right. So, let's look at it this way. Would someone like to make a motion with either of these pairings at this point? Robin, do you want to do? MS. SALMON: I move that we accept clad obverse 4 as the obverse of the silver coin, and silver reverse 5 as the reverse of the silver coin. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Any discussion on that at this point? DR. KOTLOWSKI: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN URAM: All right. DR. KOTLOWSKI: This is Dean. I have to say, just getting back to something, I'm not a real fan of clad obverse 12A. that aside. So, I'm just going to set I have always liked clad obverse 04, which is part of Robin's motion, better than silver obverse 5. And it got one more vote. So, they're very close. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 121 CHAIRMAN URAM: Right. Right. That's DR. KOTLOWSKI: But I still -- yeah. -- But, I still want to press hard on silver obverse 10. I can see the appeal with silver reverse 5, because I actually supported that early on in a different context. But, I'm wondering if we're going to get -- if I can invent a word here, I wonder if we're going to get too badgey. Because we're going to have a badge on the clad obverse, and here we've got it here. Now, the one thing is that seems to be representative of the emblem of the museum. So, bear that in mind. But, I probably will vote against Robin's motion because, again, I still am holding out for the museum. CHAIRMAN URAM: Well, I think that you make a good point that we could become too badgey. That was the first thing I thought of there. wanted it to have discussion. MS. STAFFORD: So, if -Mr. Chair? CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. STAFFORD: But, I Yes, Robin. Sorry. This is April. I wonder, I just want to offer to you, Mr. Chairman, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 122 our chief engraver, Joe Menna, might have some observations about either of these pairings, or the designs therein, that might be helpful as the committee is considering it. CHAIRMAN URAM: That will be fine. Joe? MR. MENNA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just with the building, as a reverse, the textural concerns are monumental. Not to make a bad pun. But you'd have to place "United States of America," "E Pluribus Unum," and "One Dollar," plus any inscriptions that you might want to include that have been mentioned, and you would have to alter the physical design -- the physical structure of the design to a very large extent. "United States of America" and "E Pluribus Unum" would have to arc across the top, and they'd be teeny. And then you could put the "One Dollar" on the shield, but then the shield would have to probably shrink a little bit. But, I don't know that USA and "E Pluribus Unum" would be readily legible. So, that's my only concern. Thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 123 CHAIRMAN URAM: appropriate. That's very And then, Robin -- or Dean, having said that with the building, do we then think about going back to the floor, the mosaic. DR. KOTLOWSKI: You know something, I am just not enamored of that design. really mean anything to me. It doesn't And I think that it's a case when you're writing an essay or -- you know, every word counts. And every image counts here. I don't think that that conveys anything. And And if we had to go back, maybe the badges -- again, I'm all over the place. And I realize that. I mean, this is -- but, at least with 13 and the badges there's some kind of representation there, I think, of the logo. Can you hear me? CHAIRMAN URAM: No. Somebody needs to mute their phone. DR. KOTLOWSKI: That's not me. CHAIRMAN URAM: Well, Dean, let me ask you, and the rest of the committee, if we have the problem with the building itself, and we're back to the community, Dennis's theme, and we go with the 04, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 124 which is the young girl, it's a very nice design, then maybe we can go back to 12 and 12A, with the horse and the K-9. Which -DR. KOTLOWSKI: Yeah. CHAIRMAN URAM: -- puts a little human aspect back into it. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Yeah. Tom, you asked me -- or, Mr. Chair, you asked me this directly. I don't -- I'll tell you why I'm not enamored of 12A. don't think the dogs have to be in there. with Dr. Brown's point. I agree And that whole image there -- it looks very, very -- this is clad obverse 12A. looks very stiff. It You have the officer, you know, kind of above, and he's looking down on another officer. It has an authority, and almost an authoritarian element to it, that I'm uncomfortable with personally. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. MORAN: Well, how about this. Tom, let me make a suggestion here. CHAIRMAN URAM: second, Mike. I One second, Mike. One This got some votes, and looking at www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 125 this from the marketing side, then, we know that animals sell. Then, why don't we go to gold 01, which was the valor with the lion with the shield. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: No. Oh, please, no. MR. TUCKER: Tucker. No, it's -- this is Dennis It's inappropriate, in my opinion -CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. TUCKER: Okay. Michael -- -- to make this into a marketing question. CHAIRMAN URAM: Well -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me throw this out. MR. GILL: This is Sam Gill. That's our job. CHAIRMAN URAM: These things need to create the benefit for the museum as well. Michael. Okay, Go ahead. MR. MORAN: Why don't we throw in as a concept, at least, an achievement coin or reward coin or reward medal, whatever you want to call it, that accompanies this set of three, and has the museum on www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 126 one side and one of the other design for the reverse of that achievement point -- achievement medal. That way you can get the building in, but you get it in on a nondenominational medal. And you don't have to -- you're not burdened with any inscriptions. CHAIRMAN URAM: something for the marketing. I think that would be Let's come up with an agreeable reverse, if anyone -- if everyone -- first of all, let's -- I take it we're all kind of in agreement with clad 04 with the young girl and the officer kneeling. So -- DR. VAN ALFEN: Alfen. This is Peter van If I could just make a quick comment about that clad 04 obverse. CHAIRMAN URAM: Sure. DR. VAN ALFEN: I find that, you know, from a design perspective to be, you know, very attractive. And, you know, there is certainly a sweetness to it. However, when I first saw that my first thought actually was to some of the images that I saw from this last summer, of some of the protests, in fact. So, I don't know if that is only, you know, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 127 my vision or my, you know -- you know, what I see in that. But, if I, you know, saw some similarity between some of the images from the protests this last summer, and, you know, this obverse, you know, that might be something we'd want to consider. You know, I -- again, I don't know if that's just simply, you know, my reading into that. But, you know, there is an element of that that perhaps we should consider. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Dean again. Mr. Chairman, this is I think that that's an excellent point. And it would be an added reason to going forward, because there were instances in the protests of last summer where some of the officers kneeled in front of the protesters. DR. VAN ALFEN: small children, too. Well, and especially So -- DR. KOTLOWSKI: MR. TUCKER: Yeah. Peter, this is Dennis. So, you're saying that -DR. VAN ALFEN: Well, so, my -- if this can possibly be taken as a reference, even an oblique reference, to this last summer, you know, is this www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 128 something that we, you know, want to, you know, consider as a possible reference or not. I mean, for that reason I found that silver obverse 5, you know, was, you know, a little more neutral, just in the sense that there didn't seem to be any reference to that. MR. TUCKER: again. This is Dennis Tucker Peter, one of my objections, I -- to clad obverse 4, although I do think it's a nice design, if you look at the human elements in it, the police officer and the girl, the inscription says "Serve and Protect", and this officer is neither serving nor protecting. In silver obverse 5, he is protecting. All right. Look, this police officer, is he serving this girl. Not really. Is he protecting her. I mean, I suppose he's got a gun, so he's protecting her in that sense. But, you know, it's more of a -- it's a nice image of community, but it doesn't jell with the inscriptions. I still think that silver obverse 5 is a nice symbolic representation of what the police do. They -CHAIRMAN URAM: Then I think -- Dennis, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 129 I think -MR. TUCKER: Even when you don't know that you're being protected. CHAIRMAN URAM: I think you're right. It's a softer approach. MR. TUCKER: Uh-huh. Well, with silver obverse 5 it actually shows protection. CHAIRMAN URAM: That's true. Okay. So, we're still looking for a reverse at this point. Would anyone like to make any motion? MR. GILL: Mr. Chairman, this is Sam Gill. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. GILL: Yes. Could I just make one comment about the building? CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. GILL: Yes. Obverse 10. I don't know if anybody -- I think -- did we miss an opportunity by not continuing to tell a story? If you show a building, it doesn't tell a story. buildings everywhere. And there are And I'm not sure that most people that buy these coins will ever see that www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 130 building. So, are we missing an opportunity to choose something else that continues to tell a story. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. TUCKER: agree with you. Sure. Sam, this is Dennis and I This building in particular looks like a billboard, you know, as it's depicted on the coin. It's just a square or rectangle that descends to the horizon line. It really has no architectural flourishes or any sort of distinguishability. It's just a big polygon with the words National Law Enforcement Museum on it. So, I don't think -- I think from a design perspective silver obverse 10 just doesn't work. I think that the floor pattern does make that connection. My only objection to that would, again, be the word Remember, because I think that we addressed the memorial aspect with the gold coin. Maybe we could change the word remember to something else, and use that as the reverse of the silver dollar. DR. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, this is Lawrence Brown. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 131 CHAIRMAN URAM: DR. BROWN: Go ahead, Lawrence. I think if we can agree that this coin is going to focus on humanity, is going to focus on people, then if we agree with that concept then I think one of the recommendations that was made by one of my colleagues does make a lot a sense. That I would probably give a leaning in the poll to silver obverse 5, for the reasons that Dennis has raised, and then I would probably go in the direction of either reverse -- silver reverse 11 or silver reverse 13. These represent issues about the connection between law enforcement and people. MR. TUCKER: This is Dennis. that were a motion, I would second it. And if Or if it's agreeable with others, I would make that motion. That's what I -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. TUCKER: Well, excuse me. -- have been arguing for from the beginning. CHAIRMAN URAM: Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: is Jeanne Stevens-Sollman. Excuse me. This Can we -- I'm still going www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 132 to argue for this K-9 law enforcement dog. think it's important. Is it possible to put Dennis's obverse and use the 12A as a reverse? thinking about that. I really We're not even But, is there a reason why we couldn’t think that way? MR. TUCKER: Well, this is Dennis. And Mr. Chair, if I could address that. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. TUCKER: Go ahead. Jeanne, you know I'm a dog person. And you and I share that. person. And I respect and admire what service animals can do within law enforcement. And I'm an animal I think that Dr. Brown brought up some very, very relevant points here. And I think that Dean, with his background in European history and the revolutions of 1848 and elsewhere, would probably agree with this. That law enforcement and federal governments send horses in to quell riots. Yes, they're often in the background, to maintain order. But when you want to strike fear into a community, you send dogs and horses. And Jeanne, I love dogs and horses. grew up with horses, as you know. So, I'm not www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I Meeting September 23, 2020 133 disparaging their connection between people and animals. That's a wonderful connection. But, the time that we live in, to show -- and to show an authoritarian pose with an equestrian police officer being looked up to like that, it's just too loaded. The symbolism is too loaded. It's too much. It's inappropriate for our -CHAIRMAN URAM: Dennis, okay. Another thought would be, Jeanne, is if you look at clad reverse 13 -- which the only reason I don't like reverse 13 it's just too much people. I would rather go with reverse 11, if we were doing the handshake with people, because that might not. But, if -- for Jeanne's sake, reverse 13, which has the young boy -we have the young boy petting -- or, reaching out to the dog there, on clad reverse 14, which is certainly a lot softer than -- just we decided to do on the obverse, it's softer than, quite frankly, when I saw 12 and 12A it reminded me of the 1995 Civil War gold. It was very similar. Without the dog and the boy. But, it's the same type of design. If you wanted to use a dog and another person, you have the young boy www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 134 and you have a female police officer and the K-9 in reverse 14. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: we could get the K-9. Right. At least I think that this is a teaching moment for us, to be able to let the public know that horses and dogs are not always negative in their ability to watch over the community. really important. I think it's You know, horses, yes, enforce the law, but also a horse will allow an officer to be up high so he can see what's going on. How many times are we in New York when we have the mounted police walking the streets. It is not to strike fear in the community, but to strike calmness, because there is someone watching over us. And I think that we need to think about the positive aspects of this, Dr. Lawrence, because so many of us have had positive experiences and we need to help the public understand that there is positivity in having this part of the police, of the Law Enforcement Museum there. So, I think it's terribly important to get this across to the public. Plus, as Tom has said, and I know, Dennis, you don't want marketability in it but www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 135 an animal will sell these coins. And if we have no animals in here, nothing, then I think we're missing an opportunity to have diverse information in having this series minted. CHAIRMAN URAM: you. Okay, Jeanne, thank Let's at least agree on the obverse at this time, so that I don't want to try and do pairings where we're going to have to vote and then -- across the board, but, like, for the new people -- so, would someone like to make a motion to have the obverse design as silver 05? Or another -- DENNIS TUCKER: I would make that CHAIRMAN URAM: Is there a second? motion. DR. BROWN: I second. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Any further discussion? Dr. Brown. Dr. Brown seconds. We are going to be voting on the design of the police officer looking over the young person reading the book. motion and we have a second. take a vote. And we have a And now we are going to Dr. Brown? DR. BROWN: In favor, yes. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 136 CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. MORAN: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. LANNIN: Sam? Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. TUCKER: Robin? Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. GILL: Mary Lannin? Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. SALMON: Michael Moran? Dennis? Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: Dean? DR. KOTLOWSKI: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: No. CHAIRMAN URAM: Peter? DR. VAN ALFEN: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: The chairman votes yes. So, and we have Donald Scarinci not voting. nine yes, one no, one nonvoting. We have So, that is the obverse selection at this point. Now, let's go on to looking at the reverse. I'm strongly also in favor of the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 137 representation of a K-9 for the reasons I stated earlier, and I'm not going to go over it again. But, if I didn't see the K-9 I think I would be back to the badges, which was brought up, which would be reverse 5 and 6, even though it might be too badgey. But, if we wanted to keep the community, you know -- for that matter, if we didn't go with the K-9 maybe obverse 4. But, I'm leaning more towards reverse 14, you know, without all the extra stuff. But, clad reverse 14. Let's have some further division on the reverse. MR. GILL: Mr. Chairman, this is Sam. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. GILL: Yes. I completely agree with Jeanne, and you, and I could live with 14. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. TUCKER: Okay. Thank you, Sam. Mr. Chair, this is Dennis. If I may, don't -- I think we're -- a couple things. We're giving too much weight to marketability. If you look at the basketball hall of fame commemorative coin program, everything about that program says this is going to be a winner. coins. We're going to sell lots of But it hasn't happened. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 138 I think that our committee has to come to the hard conclusion that we really need to step away from worrying so much about how many of these coins will sell. Yes, that should always be a consideration, because we know that what's popular will have a better chance of selling. But, popularity itself is never a guarantee of sales when it comes to numismatics. We are simply finding that out in the numismatic world, right. So, I wouldn’t put Mickey Mouse or, you know, a pop star or something that we think will be popular on a coin, just because we think that we'll sell more. I think we need to keep our eye on integrity. I think we need to look at the big picture of what we're communicating here. And I personally think that when we say there's too many humans, I think that that precisely fails to address the times that we live in. I think we need humans on this coin. I think that humanity is not just the humanity of having a homo sapien, or a human being, on the coin. That's not enough. We're looking at community. We're looking at connections, connections between police www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 139 officers and the communities that they serve. That's the humanity. You know, that's different from a dog handler. You know, dog handlers are about law enforcement. We want this to be about law enforcement and the communities that they serve, living together, working together, and connecting. -- I still like 13. That's why I like Yes, it adds two more human figures to this coin. But this coin needs connection. CHAIRMAN URAM: I understand where you're coming from on that, but I'm also looking at -and I think a couple other members are looking at the fact that when you're looking at the whole picture on what the series is going to create, and the other elements are -- whether it's the building or whether it's the K-9s or whether it's the roses or whether it's the towers, all have to be tied in. And the only element we're missing right now is the K-9 side of it. So, I'm looking at it -- not saying human isn't important. I mean, I'm just looking at it from the whole perspective of the whole grouping. MR. TUCKER: But I -- Well, Mr. Chair, that's www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 140 not true. There are a lot of elements in police work that are missing. We're missing -- CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. TUCKER: Well, that's true. -- armor divisions. We're missing -CHAIRMAN URAM: here. From what we have right From what we're presented with right here. let's do this. So, I'll take any motions that want to be presented right now. And -- DR. BROWN: Lawrence Brown here, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN URAM: DR. BROWN: motion. Go ahead. I'm going to present a And I want my fellow committee members to understand and to appreciate that I really respect their viewpoint from a number of different levels. The thing that I must really try to do a better job of communicating that it is so important how this lands. We are now at a point in our society where we're still trying to, in fact, have great collaboration across a number of different aspects of our society. And unfortunately, there have been misrepresentations that www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 141 has caused us to, in fact, to accept things -- or, I should say to have conversations that are sometimes not very constructive. I do appreciate my colleagues who say about the issues about K-9s and horses. I really do appreciate that, and I love the fact that we're having this conversation. But I do believe that this is really a time that we lean forward towards the purpose of this, is the humanity. And for that reason, my motion is that we consider -- and I understand, as much as I like 13, because it has actually the faces of the individuals -- that is silver reverse 13 -- my motion is going to be, because I've heard from others, I'm willing to compromise to say silver reverse 11. So, I share that as my motion. MR. TUCKER: I would second that. This is Dennis Tucker. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. are voting on silver reverse 11. Okay. So, we We'll start with Dr. Brown. DR. BROWN: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: Mike Moran? Mike? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 142 MR. MORAN: Tom, come back to me. still trying to find silver reverse 11. minute. I'm fine. I've got it. I've got it. I'm Oh, wait a Yeah, I see it. Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. LANNIN: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. SALMON: Robin? Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. GILL: Mary Lannin? Sam? Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. TUCKER: Dennis Tucker? Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: Dean? DR. KOTLOWSKI: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: No. CHAIRMAN URAM: Peter? DR. VAN ALFEN: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: The chair votes no. The -- nine in favor -- I'm sorry. two nos, one nonvoting. Eight in favor, The motion passes. So, we will be going with the suggestion of silver reverse www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 143 number 11. Okay. deliberation. I think we did a great job of I think it's been a thoughtful process. I think that the organization and the members should be proud of the designs that were chosen this morning -- now afternoon. And we look forward to having a great tribute to law enforcement. With that, we will -MR. MORAN: Tom. Tom. This is Mike Moran. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. MORAN: Yes. Can I personally thank Dennis for keeping us on focus on the silver designs. We might have gone off track without his comments. And I certainly agree with Dr. Brown on everything he said this morning. MR. TUCKER: I appreciate that, Mike. Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: recess. We are going into We will reconvene at 1:30. (Off the record.) CHAIRMAN URAM: We'll take a roll call of the members, to ensure we have a quorum. Sam Gill? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 144 MR. GILL: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: DR. BROWN: Dr. Brown? Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Mary Lannin? MS. LANNIN: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. SALMON: Robin? Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. SCARINCI: Thank you. Thank you. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN URAM: on? Donald? Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. TUCKER: Dean? Jeanne? Present. Thank you. Dennis? Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. DR. VAN ALFEN: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Michael, did you get We'll give him another minute. chairman of the CCAC. Peter? I'm Tom Uram, And I know we have several liaison members that are also with us, and April, if it's all right with you, I'll let you do those www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 145 introductions during your report. MS. STAFFORD: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: So, with that, why don't we just go ahead and I'll turn this over to April Stafford, the Chief of the Mint's Office of Design Management. And April will present the candidate obverse and reverse designs for the first of the Hidden Figures Congressional Gold Medals, Dorothy J. Vaughan, to be considered today. Michael, was that you? MR. WHITE: Hello? CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. WHITE: Okay. Who just joined? Mike White. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Mike? Oh, Mike White is on. April, let's turn it over to you. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you so much. It is Public Law 116-68 that awards a Congressional Gold Medal to Dorothy Vaughan to commemorate her life and her contributions to the success of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) during the Space Race. Dorothy Johnson Vaughan came to the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 146 Langley Memorial Aeronautical Laboratory in 1943, during the height of World War II, leaving her position as the math teacher at a high school to take what she believed would be a temporary war job. Ms. Vaughan was assigned to the segregated West Area Computing unit, an all-black group of female mathematicians who processed aeronautical research data. Over time, both individually and as a group, the West Computers distinguished themselves with contributions to virtually every area of research at Langley. In 1949, Ms. Vaughan was promoted to the lead of the group, making her the first black supervisor at the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics (NACA), and one of NACA's few female supervisors. Ms. Vaughan helmed West Computing for nearly a decade. In 1948, when NACA made the transition to NASA, Dorothy Vaughan and many of the West Computers joined the new Analysis and Computation Division, a racially and gender-integrated group on the frontier of electronic computing. Ms. Vaughan was a self-taught expert in the FORTRAN computer language, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 147 and also contributed to the Scout Launch Vehicle Program. She retired from NASA in 1971. In developing this portfolio, the United States Mint worked closely with liaisons for the family, two of Dorothy Vaughan’s children, Leonard Vaughan and Ann Hammond. I believe we have Mr. Vaughan and Ms. Hammond with us. We have their design preferences, which I will note as we go through the descriptions, but please let me first see if either Mr. Vaughan or Ms. Hammond would like to say a few words. MS. HAMMOND: opportunity. Well, thank you for the Are you referring to my mother as Ms. or Mrs.? MS. STAFFORD: Oh, I'm saying Ms., M-S, but we're happy to include M-R-S period as her title in any of the materials, if you prefer. MS. HAMMOND: Right. Please. MR. VAUGHAN: I have no comments at this time. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Thank you. of course, committee members, if you have any www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 And Meeting September 23, 2020 148 questions for Mr. Vaughan or Ms. Hammond, they are available to respond. designs. We'll start with the obverse And just to note, to the family liaisons, the committee has all of the designs. However, I'll only be stopping at the designs that have been noted as preferences, to read them aloud. But, we have the materials that will be entered into record. So, starting with the obverse designs, we have obverse 5; obverse 7; obverse 11; and obverse 11A. Obverse 11A depicts a portrait of Dorothy Vaughan with an upward gaze. The inscriptions are Act Of Congress 2019 and Dorothy J. Vaughan. This design also includes a piano key border, denoting Ms. Vaughan's lifelong love of music and playing the piano. Obverse 11A is our liaisons' preferred obverse design, and the design recommended by the CFA. Moving on to reverse designs, we have reverse 6; 6A. Reverse 6A features Dorothy Vaughan in a teaching pose, instructing two other computers, who are seated and taking notes. In the background of the design, a sun symbolizes enlightenment, and also www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 149 suggests that Mrs. Vaughan was a beacon for others, leading the way for African-American women. Inscribed in the center of the sun are Mrs. Vaughan’s compelling words, "I changed what I could, and what I couldn’t I endured." Reverse 6A includes a mainframe computer with magnetic tape units, representing Mrs. Vaughan's expertise with the FORTRAN computer language. The additional inscriptions “FORTRAN expert,” “Scout Launch Program,” and “Supervisor, West Area Computers” highlight some of her career accomplishments. Obverse 6A -- I'm sorry, excuse me, reverse 6A is the liaisons’ preferred reverse design and the design recommended by the CFA. Moving on, we also have reverses 7 and 7A for consideration. That concludes the candidate designs, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN URAM: April. Thank you very much, And for the protocol, Mike Moran, have you joined the call? Michael? MR. MORAN: Yes, Tom. For some reason, I lost my keyboard. CHAIRMAN URAM: No problem. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 150 MR. MORAN: I'll sort that out later. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. Now, before we get into our discussion, I'd ask if Joe Menna or Ron Harrigal have anything to share with the committee on the designs for this medal? MR. MENNA: Joe? This is Joe. No, I do not. Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. HARRIGAL: Okay. Ron? The same here. No comments. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Very good. Are there any technical or legal questions from the committee about this program or these designs before we begin our general discussion? begin our considerations. Hearing none, we'll And housekeeping, I'd like to ask that all members please keep their comments to five minutes or less, and identify yourself when you start. We will be keeping track of the time. We'll indicate when time is up. And we'll ask, hearing that, that you please wrap up your comments. Additionally, if any members have any questions, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 151 comments, or anything to discuss, please refrain from that until you're recognized at the end, when I ask for additional comments. That all seemed to work very well this morning, as well. So, thank you all for that. Let's begin with Mary Lannin. MS. LANNIN: Hello. Mary? I would like to concur with what the family has chosen. Obviously, they knew their mother better than any of the rest of us. And I find the portrait as to the obverse 11A is very compelling. And I like the reverse 6A as well. So, those would be my choices. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you very much. Okay. Thank you. Dr. Brown? DR. BROWN: Good afternoon. And I really want to pay respect to Mrs. Vaughan's children. We really appreciate this opportunity to continue to tell the history of this country. And in that respect, I'd like to, in fact, reinforce and echo and duplicate the recommendations of my colleague, Mary Lannin. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Dr. Brown. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 152 Donald Scarinci? MR. SCARINCI: I always concur with the constituent groups -- almost always. And I certainly concur with the selection, you know, of 11A and 6A. They're a perfectly fine design. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Donald. Michael? MR. MORAN: Yes, Tom. between -- with 6A and 11A. I concur as well In fact, I complement them for choosing the ones that were clearly the best. I do have one suggestion, on the reverse. And that is that the phrase "I changed what I could, and what I couldn't I endured," I think that the artist, when they arranged their inscriptions here, could have done better. And if it were me, I would have at least tried to take that phrase and string it around the perimeter of the sun, along with -- next to the rays. And make it in a circle there. I think that would be much more pleasing, and give you some nice negative space in the center. consideration. But, that's just strictly a My votes are with the family. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 153 Robin? MS. SALMON: and with my colleagues. woman. I agree with the family Obverse 11A presents a mighty And I also like the addition of the piano keys, giving another aspect of who she was. And reverse 6A tells what she did, what she thought, who she touched, and I think it's the most perfect selection. Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: you. Okay, Robin. Thank Sam? MR. GILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm going to concur with my colleagues. I think the family made the best selection, and I particularly like the reverse 6A, because it tells a wonderful story. So, her family should be very proud. Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: Sam. Indeed. Thank you, Dennis? MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. As you know, I have a four-and-a-half-year-old daughter and I am delighted to be able to work on this particular Congressional Gold Medal program and be www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 154 able to tell her that I was involved in the medal that honors such a strong woman. designs. It's a lovely portrait. addition of the piano keys. element. I think these are great I also like the I think that's a nice And the reverse tells her story and gives some of her philosophy to an appreciative audience. And again, it's an honor to pay tribute to a great American like Dorothy Vaughan. Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Dennis. DR. KOTLOWSKI: I liked all of the Dean? portraits. And I completely concur with what the family has selected, and I, too, like the addition of the piano keys. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Doctor. Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Mr. Chairman. I am very impressed with the portrait that the family has chosen. beautiful likeness. who did this. Yes, thank you, It's a beautiful, And congratulations to the artist And also, I agree with 6A. I think it's a wonderful representation of her life. So, I'm www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 155 going to concur with my colleagues and with the family. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Jeanne. Dr. DR. VAN ALFEN: Yeah, I'm very happy to van Alfen? concur with my colleagues and with the family as well on obverse 11A and reverse 6A. And like Dennis too, I am very happy to be able to tell the story of these women to my young daughter as well. You know, it's something, in fact, I was doing last night over dinner. And I do have one question, though, and this is for Joe, about the piano keys around the edge of the obverse. finished? Just curious how these would be Would this be inscribed as lines, and have some sort of textural -- tactile quality? Or how would they be represented? MR. MENNA: Thank you, Dr. van Alfen. We often have raised borders on Congressional gold meal. So, there is the ivories would be -- the white keys would be elevated a little bit, and the black keys would be elevated a little bit more, I believe. But not a lot, you know, because we have to worry www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 156 about certain coinability concerns. But, that would be the way, I think, it would probably be handled. Thank you. DR. VAN ALFEN: Oh, very nice. Thank CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay, Peter, thank you. you. And I just want to say that I agree with the entire committee. And I would just say to Leonard and Ann that it doesn’t always go this way, all the time, but you can certainly be proud of this recognition and what it means, and I only wish that we could have been there in person to see you and having today. But, having said that, I would just like a motion, then, to go ahead and approve. roll call. This verses me going down the If we could just have unanimous consent. DR. BROWN: Brown. Mr. Chair, this is Lawrence I so move. CHAIRMAN URAM: Dr. Brown moves. Do we have a second? MS. LANNIN: Mary Lannin, and I second. Mary Lannin. CHAIRMAN URAM: All right. Thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 157 And so, with that, it's unanimous, unless there's someone -- anyone dissenting. unanimously approved. Hearing none, it's Congratulations to the family, again, and thanks for being with us. MS. HAMMOND: Okay. MR. VAUGHAN: Thank you for all your considerations. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. Wonderful. Now we will move to consideration of the obverse and reverse candidate designs for the second medal of the Hidden Figures Congressional Gold Medals for Mary W. Jackson to be considered now. April Stafford, Chief of the Mint’s Office of Design Management, will present the candidate obverse and reverse designs for the second medal, the Hidden Figures Congressional Gold Medal for Mary W. Jackson. April? MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. Public Law 116-68 awards a Congressional Gold Medal to Mary Jackson to commemorate her life and her contributions to the success of NASA during the Space Race. For Mary Winston Jackson, a love of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 158 science and a commitment to improving the lives of the people around her were one and the same. In the 1970s, she helped youngsters in the science club build their own wind tunnel and use it to conduct experiments. Following a series of positions in different occupations, Ms. Jackson began her career with what would become NASA at the Langley Memorial Aeronautical Laboratory’s segregated West Area Computing section in 1951, reporting to that group’s supervisor, Dorothy Vaughan. After two years in the computing pool, Ms. Jackson accepted an opportunity to work with the 4x4 foot Supersonic Pressure Tunnel. She received hands-on experience conducting experiments and was able to take training that would allow her to receive a promotion from Mathematician to Engineer. In 1958, Ms. Jackson became NASA’s first black female engineer. For nearly two decades, she enjoyed a productive engineering career, authoring or co-authoring at least a dozen research reports, most of them focused on the behavior of the boundary www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 159 layer of air around airplanes. In 1979, feeling that the glass ceiling of the time was the rule rather than the exception for the center’s female professionals, she made a final career change, leaving engineering to accept the position Langley’s Federal Women’s Program Manager. There, she worked hard to effect the hiring and promotion of the next generation of all of NASA’s female mathematicians, engineers and scientists. Ms. Jackson retired in 1985. In developing the candidate design portfolio, the United States Mint worked closely with the liaison for the family, Ms. Jackson’s granddaughter, Wanda Jackson. Wanda Jackson's design preference is included, along with the design descriptions. Wanda Jackson, are you with us? And if so, would you like to say a few words to the committee? Okay. candidate designs. I will move through the Obviously, the committee has all of the materials and they will be entered into the public record. I will stop only at the designs that www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 160 have been identified by our liaisons as a preference. Starting with the obverse designs, we have obverse 4; 5; and obverse 6. This design depicts Mary Jackson holding an early model of the space shuttle. Included inscriptions are “Mary W. Jackson,” “NASA’S First Black Female Aeronautical Engineer,” and “Act of Congress 2019.” This design is the liaison's preferred obverse, and the design recommended by the CFA. Moving on to the reverses, we have reverse 1A; reverse 2. Reverse 2 features a full- length figure of Ms. Jackson with a clipboard and pen, superimposed on a large wind tunnel, representing her work with air boundary layer information. The inscriptions “Aeronautical Engineer,” “Mathematician,” and “Educator” encircle the design. Reverse 2 is the liaison's preferred reverse design, and the design recommended by the CFA. We also have as part of the candidate designs reverse 5. Mr. Chairman, that concludes the candidate designs. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Thank you, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 161 April. Once again, I'd like to ask Joe if there's any comments that you'd like to share with the committee regarding the design. MR. MENNA: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have nothing to say right now. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. HARRIGAL: No, Thank you so much. Okay. Ron? These are good designs, very appropriate for a gold medal. CHAIRMAN URAM: considerations. Okay. Let us begin our And we all know the rules, so we're not going to do that again. But, let's begin with Dr. Brown. DR. BROWN: Good afternoon again, my colleagues, and the public and the press. I want to reemphasize that this, I must confess, is one of the reasons that I was so pleased to be on the CCAC. The opportunity to continue to tell the story of this country is one that I believe that we should all cherish. In that respect, I am again happy to be here to, in fact, support, certainly, and agree with design obverse 6 and design reverse 2, consistent with www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 162 the family, as well as the CFA. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN URAM: Brown. Okay. Thank you, Dr. Donald Scarinci? MR. SCARINCI: I think, you know, what I have to say today, you know, to Joe and to the Mint, is this is a phenomenal -- it's not just good. I mean, it's a really -- we're seeing some really, really nice designs here today. And, you know, all of the artists should really, you know, be proud of themselves. And the Mint, you know, should absolutely be very proud of this achievement of excellence, during such a difficult time period that we're living through right now with respect to COVID, quarantine, lockdowns, and all these things. You've done an outstanding job, and I just really want to say that and really give kudos, you know, to all of you at the Mint. And to Joe, especially, for what you're doing with your artists and your infusion artists. And really, whatever it is is happening over there, keep it up. It's awesome. On the issue of this medal, I, of course, support the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 163 liaison's preference. And, you know, hopefully, Mr. Chairman, we can do another consent resolution to unanimously adopt it. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. SCARINCI: Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. MORAN: Thank you, Donald. Michael? Thank you, Tom. I, too, feel like in particular the Hidden Figures package of designs is strong. I was impressed with it. And again, I will go with the family's choices of 6 for the obverse and 2 for the reverse. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. LANNIN: Okay. Mary? I completely agree with my colleagues on the appropriateness of all these designs. And I will also go with obverse 6 and reverse 2. Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Mary. Robin? MS. SALMON: sentiments. I'm echoing all of the I would like to point out on reverse 2 that the word "Humanitarian" is also part of that design. I endorse obverse 6 and reverse 2. Thank www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 164 you. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. GILL: Thanks, Robin. Thank you, Tom. Sam? I'm going to echo all the comments my colleagues have said. The family is very, very -- should be very, very proud, and we should all be very proud of these designs and this woman, and the history that comes with it. So, thank you very much. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Sam. Dennis? MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I also support the family's decisions and preferences for this medal. remarkable. I think that the portrait is It's unusual to have such an active style portrait in a Congressional Gold Medal, where the recipient is holding something or doing something. Usually we see just a profile portrait or maybe some aspects of their life set in the background, or off to the side. So, this is a very charming and engaging view of Ms. Jackson. And, I also like the reverse. It's an unusual view, but it takes perfect advantage of the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 165 canvas that we have with the gold medal. And the wind tunnel is just very nicely rendered, and it's a wonderful portrait that draws you in and celebrates the work that she did. And Robin, thank you for mentioning the humanitarian aspect as well. I think it's very important, and wonderful, that she was so supportive of other female scientists and mathematicians, and other experts. Not only focusing on her own career, but then helping them in their careers. And my little daughter is right here with me, and, again, I'm proud to be involved in this program honoring Ms. Jackson. Dennis. Chairman. Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Thank you, Dean? I'm so happy to see these remarkable women and inspirations receiving recognition today and beyond. selected. I completely concur with what the family has I especially like obverse 6 and the touch of the small model of the space shuttle, showing that Mary Jackson's career extended into the 1980s. And I think the reverse with the full-length portrait of her www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 166 is quite striking. Thank you, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Dean. Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Chairman. Thank you, Mr. I also agree with the choices of 06 and 02. I think the portrait is exceptionally beautiful, and I too, as Dean pointed out, the -- her holding the model of the rocket is quite wonderful. And the design -- this is the reverse of the design, I think, is very compelling. It's very exciting to see this kind of pop-out and be something that's wonderful to hold. So, congratulations on the choices and also to the artists that drew these. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Jeanne. DR. VAN ALFEN: I'm more than happy to Peter? concur with my colleagues on the choice of obverse 6 and reverse 2. In fact, I have to say, I think that reverse 2 is one of the most striking designs in the portfolio. And also, you know, I'd like to agree, as well, with Donald's comments about, you know, just the quality of the art, you know, across the board in this www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 167 portfolio. I do have one question, again, for Joe, just about how the reverse of this medal would be rendered. You know, with that center of the wind tunnel there, is there any possibility of having some concavity or some depth, you know, in the center of the coin? MR. MENNA: Yes, Dr. van Alfen. believe that's how it would be realized. I The border would be flattish -- probably flat, and the wind tunnel would be a series of overlapping pieces. And that would make the figure pop with -- you know, give the illusion of having even greater relief despite, you know, being within our specifications. So, for us it's a really interesting opportunity to do something we probably haven't done in a great while. DR. VAN ALFEN: be fantastic. All right. Oh, I think that will Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Peter. And obviously, I'm going to concur with the committee. It's certainly a great portfolio, as was mentioned, and the family will be proud, as we are proud to have played a little part in this process. Dr. Brown www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 168 mentioned about the history, and over the years that I've been on the CCAC I'm picking up all the history that I missed when I didn't have -- when I wasn't paying attention in school. But, I will tell you that it's most rewarding to do the reviews of all the Congressional Gold Medals. It's great, the human aspect and the people that have played a role in the history of the nation. It's wonderful. And once again, nice to play a small part in the process. With that, did Wanda, by chance, join us? Wanda Jackson join us yet? Okay. April, then, when you're talking with her you can express our thoughts. And is there anyone that objects to obverse 6 and reverse 2? Hearing none, I'll take a motion for unanimous consent for the approval of obverse 6 and reverse 2. Motion? MS. SALMON: DR. BROWN: This is Robin. I move. This is Lawrence Brown. CHAIRMAN URAM: Robin, and second by Lawrence Brown. DR. BROWN: Thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 169 CHAIRMAN URAM: much. Okay. And thank you very We will now move on to the next. We will now move to the consideration of the obverse and reverse candidate designs for the third medal of the Hidden Figures Congressional Gold Medals for the Hidden Figures Group Medal, and that will be considered now. April Stafford will present candidate obverse and reverse designs for this third medal, the Hidden Figures Group Congressional Gold Medal. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. April? Public Law 116-68 also awards a fifth Congressional Gold Medal to be received and displayed by the Smithsonian to honor the hundreds of women who worked as computers, mathematicians, and engineers at NACA and NASA between the 1930s and 1970s. The work of these women played an integral role in aircraft testing during World War II, supersonic flight research, sending the Voyager probes to explore the solar system, and the US landing the first man on the moon. The title Hidden Figures is a reference to the book by Margot Lee Shetterly and the film www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 170 released in 2016 of the same name, and it has a double meaning. It refers to the mathematical calculations that that went into the work at NACA and NASA, but also to the women who worked behind the scenes performing these calculations. The Mint worked closely with liaisons with NASA's headquarters history program office in reviewing the designs for technical accuracy and appropriateness. With us today, should have any questions, is Dr. Brian Odom, Acting Chief Historian, and Burt Ulrich, a multimedia liaison at NASA. We also shared the portfolio of candidate designs with Mamta Patel Nagaraja and Emily Furfaro, who work at NASA headquarters as well, and are associated with the group Women at NASA, in order to gain insight into which designs might best represent the honorees and their accomplishments. So, as always, you have the materials and they will be entered into record. But I will stop only at the designs that have been identified by one of our stakeholders as a preference, or recommended by the CFA. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 171 The obverse designs, obverse 1 brings the women who performed as computers, mathematicians, and engineers behind the scenes of the U.S. space program to the forefront. The design includes the greater than/equal to mathematical symbol, representing the fact that these women are arguably equal to their male counterparts. reads “Hidden Figures.” The inscription This design was identified as a favorable design by some of our NASA liaisons, and it is one of two obverses recommended by the CFA. Moving on to obverse 2; 3; 4; 6; 7; 8; and 10. Obverse 10 is a realistic depiction of a diverse group of four women who represent all of the women who were vital to the space missions at NACA and NASA between the 1930s and 1970s. They face the inscription that simply reads, “Hidden Figures.” Again, this was identified as a favorable design by some of our NASA stakeholders, and it is one of two obverses recommended by the CFA. Moving on to the reverse designs, we have reverse 1; 2; 3; 4. Reverse 4 depicts three spacecraft: an Atlas rocket, a space capsule, and a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 172 satellite. Their success is due in part to the women computers, mathematicians, and engineers who calculated their orbital patterns with precision and accuracy. The inscriptions read, “In Recognition of All Women Who Served as Computers, Mathematicians & Engineers” and “NASA & NACA”. This design was identified as a favorable reverse by our NASA liaisons and recommended as the reverse by the CFA. Moving on, reverse 7; 8; 9; 10; 11; 12. Reverse 12 shows a pair of hands launching a test plane into the night sky, with the inscription “Hidden Figures” featured below, representing all the women who worked tirelessly behind the scenes as members of the space program. This was noted as a favorable design by some of our NASA liaisons. And reverse 13 depicts a group of silhouetted women working behind the scenes with mathematical and engineering references inscribed in the background. The inscription featured above the design reads “Hidden Figures.” This, again, was noted as a favorable design by some of our NASA liaisons. Moving on to the other candidate www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 173 designs, we have reverse 14; 15; and 16. That concludes the candidate designs, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN URAM: April. Thank you. Thank you, Joe, would you like to share any comments at this time regarding this portfolio? MR. MENNA: No, sir. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. HARRIGAL: good portfolio. in the dark. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Ron? Again, really We have some incused areas, as shown That may have to be somewhat interpreted by the engravers, for instance on reverse 7, to be able to depict that. But for the most part, it's pretty accurate, showing the incused areas. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Thank you. From the committee, are there any technical or legal questions about this program that you'd like to ask before we begin our general discussion? Okay. considerations. Hearing none, let's begin our I'd like to start with Mary Lannin. Mary? MS. LANNIN: Thank you very much, Tom. I asked to go first because I am particularly drawn to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 174 this portfolio and the great art that we had a chance to see. Over the weekend, I went back to a book that I had read called Moon, by a man by the name of Barron. And I just picked out some interesting specs and figures from this particular book. 2,500 years ago, a Greek writer Aeschylus called the moon the eye of the night, which I found a really compelling phrase. And 2,500 years after that, a famous late Korean-American artist, named Nam June Paik called it the oldest television, because he used to sculpt his art with television. I found those remarkable in the sense that it meant that all of the people of Earth would stand and look up at the moon and contemplate it. According to this book, the Apollo program cost about $25 billion. And that, at that time, was the largest nonmilitary technological endeavor ever undertaken by the U.S. And now, here we are in 2020, and over half of the world was not born when we landed on the moon. So, I just found all of those statistics really interesting. And most of our -- there are some older people on our committee that's been -- you know, we've www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 175 been around for four to eight years, and then we have a lot of new members on the committee. And so, I wanted to bring something up that I'm not sure that everybody is aware of, for the liaisons that may be on the phone, a long time ago, probably 2018, we did a Congressional Gold Medal that, in my opinion, turned out to be one of the great Congressional Gold Medals we've ever done. This was for the Office of Strategic Services. arresting. And the obverse was very If you are near a computer and can look it up, look up U.S. Mint OSS Congressional Gold Medal. And just go on images, and you'll see what I mean. But it was very stark, very interesting looking. Could have been a Hollywood movie poster. It brought a lot of drama to the Congressional Gold Medal. And the other side of it was very -- I almost want to say mathematical. spades. Their symbol was, like, an ace of A spear. And in small letters all the way across the back, almost like an equation, were the names of the secret missions that the OSS did. And I thought it was an incredible combination. So, the art that I thought really fit www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 176 that and reminded me of our success with the OSS medal were two designs that have not been mentioned. are obverse 07 and obverse 08. They And in each of these designs, it shows the outlines of four women in period clothing and hairstyles, which I thought was really appropriate, watching as Apollo 11 took off to put the first men on the moon. And look at the swirl that surrounds them, and the rockets going up and crossing over the top of the moon. Graphically, I think that that's an absolutely remarkable obverse, and I applaud whichever artist did that. And I think the perfect match to that is also either number 7 or number 8. the arc -- the white arc. Take a look at There it is again with the words "Hidden Figures" in it. And that's got the constellation Andromeda, which was known as the Chained Woman, which was symbolic of the obstacles and difficulties overcome by the women. So, I think that these two -- especially with the texture that the sculptors and engravers at the Mint can get -- really symbolizes man and woman's, sort of, observations of the moon since mankind began. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 177 And I would like to say that these are going to be my favorite designs, and I really hope that everyone will take those into consideration in addition to what the liaison and CFA recommended. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN URAM: And thank you, Mary. Donald? MR. SCARINCI: agree more with Mary. what she said. I, you know, cannot I am so happy that she said I think 7 -- you know, the incuse and then the incuse again, I just think is just going to be a cool medal, and we can't not do it. And it's actually great art, because it moves you. I mean, this, as a medal, this moves you. I mean, you know, here are these very important, you know, very critical, you know, people, human beings. invisible. And they're ignored. They're They're blacked out, you know. they've been blacked out for 50 years. And So, I mean, I think nothing says it more -- I mean, you can't get something more expressive and more emotive than, you know, 7 and 8. And 7 I'm drawn to because of the way, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 178 you know, we're playing with incuse. And, you've know, we've never -- I don't recall, and I'm trying to think about it -- and Dennis is probably going to know offhand, I'm trying to think about other times we've done incuse and then incuse again. so cool. I think it's just We can't not do number 7, I think, really. It would be a tragedy. Now, the question, of course, is what to pair it with. And I see where Mary is going artistically, you know, because artistically -- and I'm -- and we would have to -- if we all think this should be, we obviously are going to need Joe to weigh in on incuses on the obverse and the reverse and, you know -- I mean, but, you know, I mean, I really want to be there with that because, you know, I see it how Mary -- I see it the way Mary sees it, you know, and I get the design. You know, my concern and my -obviously, my -- you know, my concern -- and these medals do, kind of, go to people. They go to human beings and they go to families and they -- you know, so that's their primary audience, their primary www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 179 target. So, I think we could get away with 7 or 8, whichever one would go with obverse 7. But, you know, I mean, to tell the story for those who don't quite understand what this medal is about and, you know, what Hidden Figures actually means, for the mass of people who don't quite get that, you know, reverse 04 really kind of spells it out. I mean, it really kind of just hits you and says this is what this medal is about. what we're doing with this medal. And this is Now, I don't like it as much artistically, although it is a, kind of, cool design, you know, with the way -- you know, I like this little helix thing that's going from edge to edge. And I think that's very cool. You know, so I'm kind of drawn -- I want to be where Mary is, because I think Mary has got the exact right -- artistically, that is just -- that would be, like, an amazing medal, right. Using 7 and using -- probably using 8, to balance off the incused figures, unless Joe says he can pull off 7, obverse -you know, obverse and reverse 7. If he could pull that off, that's a really cool medal. But, you know, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 180 I mean, for -- if we want to look at it from the point of view of the general public and, you know, what the hell does this mean, I'm not sure the words "Hidden Figures" does that trick. And I certainly -- you know, and we have to be very, you know, honest, to our own self be true. I mean, Dr. van Alfen is going to know, and most of the -- every single member of the CCAC knows what this means. So, is the public going to know and, you know, do we care if they know. know. You Because everyone who is going to be a recipient of the gold medal will know. We will know, you know. So, I guess the question as to the reverse -- you know, do we want to spell it out and say what it is. Or, you know -- and certainly if -- and I think that's what it's going to come down to, do we want to spell it out and say what it is, in which case the only medal design that really does that is number 4. Number 1 kind of does it, but really number 4 really hits you in the face and says this is what this medal is. You know, so, do we want to spell it www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 181 out or, you know, do we want to, you know, be -- or, do we want to create a real work of art and go with 7 and 7. 7. I absolutely feel passionately about obverse Having said that, I'm done. CHAIRMAN URAM: you. Okay. Donald, thank Pardon me? MR. WEINMAN: Yeah, Tom, this Greg. Real quickly, before you move on, I just -- there was something that came up earlier I wanted to clarify on. Unlike the medals that were awarded personally, the group medal here doesn't have any official liaison. So, we have -- the individuals that are on the phone and available are subject matter experts. But just to clarify that unlike other Congressional Gold Medals, there is no official liaison for the group medal. CHAIRMAN URAM: you. That's a good point. Okay. Great, thank And to Donald's point, the other thing is if, then, you need to figure out what the message is, so that they use something that they can research, and that's not a bad thing either. there's positive there as well. MR. MORAN: So, Michael? I listened to April read www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 182 through the medals, and she skipped over both of my choices, and I thought, God, am I off base again. Then Mary got on there, and thank you, Mary. I'm going to second the motion on everything you said. And Donald, if we don't do the Chained Woman we're missing a fine opportunity. symbolism. It's art. It's It's all the things that we really want stepping out into a different worlds, in terms of medals, instead of number 4, which, yeah, anybody can understand it. Let's use the symbolism and let's go for what can be truly amazing in a medal. And that is 7 and 8, and I think I lean towards 7 on the obverse, and 7 and 8, again I think I lean towards 7 but I can go with 8, on the reverse. When we come to vote, we need to keep both of these as a single vote, and then if the committee chooses these we need to talk which ones we're going to do. CHAIRMAN URAM: DR. BROWN: different view. Dr. Brown? I must confess, I had a So, my colleagues, if you thought you were all wet I certainly felt all wet, before Mary and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 183 another colleague were sharing their views. And I think the first thing I wanted to point out as someone who -- majoring in math, in obverse 1 the symbol on the left is one that is less than equal. So, I think we need to -- that may be a reason not to do that obverse 1. But, I must also confess that as someone representing the public I generally would go along with things that would be more conspicuous or obvious to the public. But, as I've come to appreciate my role here, as well as to understand where these medals will land, that I do see there is value to, in fact, stretch a little bit and lean a bit. So, in that respect, I must confess that I do lean more towards, in fact, what Mary and my colleagues just suggested, as obverse number 7 or 8. And with respect to the reverse, I must confess I was leaning more towards reverse number 4, but I do understand and see the sense about leaning in the direction of going to reverse 7 or 8 as well. Thank you, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Dr. Brown. Robin? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 184 MS. SALMON: Did you say Robin? CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. SALMON: with everybody in this. Yes. Okay. Thank you. I agree My initial choices were Mary's choices, because they were so visually exciting and different from what we often see on these medals. And it gives such a wonderful opportunity to do something different, to push the envelope, which certainly Hidden Figures -- the real Hidden Figures did. There were other designs that I liked too. Number 6, with the faces looking out from the Earth, and the different circular arcs, I liked that one very much. And then reverse 10, almost the muses there of science and mathematics and engineering, really spoke to me as well. But, in the end I think I'm going to go with obverse 7 or 8 and reverse 7 or 8. CHAIRMAN URAM: you. Okay, Robin. Thank you. Thank Sam? MR. GILL: Thank you, Tom. with Mary and everybody else here. to 07 -- obverse 07. I agree I was really drawn I just love it conceptually. It's very interesting. It's certainly drew me in. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 185 And I support that. did. I also liked obverse 6, as Robin I thought that that was -- showed a great deal of artistry and it was just interesting, again, to me. I'm going to differ a little bit and say that I always like to tell the story. And if we don't have some explanations, then this medal is going to get lost for some people. And if you didn't see the movie Hidden Figures you won't know what it is, I think. So, I'm going to go for number 4, but I would also tell you that if we chose 7 and 4 we would miss the words "Hidden Figures." I don't think it's written anyplace on either of those coins -- those sides. So, I would prefer to have "Hidden Figures" there, because that completes the story. But, those are my comments, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Sam. Dennis? MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. When I look at these designs -- and by the way, kudos to the artists, because I agree this is a fantastic portfolio of candidates -- but, when I look at them I see them as an opportunity to bring these women who www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 186 were hidden, and working behind the scenes, and celebrate them. Bring them out into the open. So, I actually had the opposite reaction to many of my colleagues. I found the ones that use silhouette to keep the women in the background, in the shadows, I found those to be almost offensive. Backward-looking. You know, this tells the story of how they were kept down, rather than how they -- you know, the advances that they made and the service that they performed for our nation. So, I was attracted to the designs that are, maybe, a little more day to day. A little more traditional, numismatically, what you'd be used to seeing on a celebratory medal, as opposed to symbolic or graphical depictions. I liked obverse 3. fully. It shows them It shows them fully in the activity that they were engaged in, mathematics and science. And it shows the results of that activity with the rocket going up into space. They're intent, they're concentrating, these are educated women. strong. They're These are bold depictions of them. not hiding in the shadows anymore. They're They're not hidden www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 187 figures. They're active. I love that design. I also like obverse 6. I was attracted to that one because even though it's more figural and artistic, it, again, brings them out of the shadows and, you know, no longer hidden. Number 1 does as well, but I didn't like that one because it doesn't speak so strongly to science and math. The women in obverse 1 could almost be involved in any group activity in a professional setting. So, I prefer obverse 3 or, if we want to get more artistic, obverse 6. lovely. I think obverse 10 is It's just a beautiful depiction of very strong women. But it could be -- you know, without the inscription "Hidden Figures" it's ambiguous what they're up to there. For the reverse, I also would take a more traditional approach to how we treat the reverses of Congressional Gold Medals, and let this tell the story and kind of do some handholding for our audience. Because not everybody is going to know who the Hidden Figures women were. So, we have an opportunity and an obligation, I think, to educate www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 188 people with this medal. If someone picked up this medal, what it is telling without them having to do a lot of research behind the scenes. At the same time, I think we have some wonderful artistic options here. by reverse 11 and reverse 12. And I was blown away I think these are just exceptional, beautiful designs. And I was glad to hear that our liaisons favored reverse 12. explosive action here. We have How often do we get that on a Congressional Gold Medal? Very rarely. This explosive action is evocative of the act of birth, which might not be inappropriate when we're talking about creative women who are releasing a creation into the universe. two designs. I was very strongly attracted to those I think they're wonderfully active, and they have a lot of potential. I won't -- my only concern would be the wording in that combination, if we were to use obverse 3 or 6. 3 in particular, with reverse 12, have the words "Hidden Figures" twice, instead of something a little more explanatory. But, I think if we had reverse 12, if we could change the wording from www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 189 "Hidden Figures" to "NASA and NACA," as we have on the bottom of obverse 6. That might tell the story a little bit more fully. So, those are some of my thoughts. I appreciate the comments about the silhouette and how that's an artistic option and a design option that has appeal. But I really think that symbolically we need to bring these women out of the shadows and some of the other designs do that in a better way. Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Dennis. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Dean? Chairman. I want to thank Mary for going first and doing that research. And I don't know if I was heard, but I looked up the OSS medal and I said wow. did a lot of thinking about the portfolio. So, I Like, Dennis, I -- well, I started out with the idea with the obverses that there were opportunities here. And with number 3, there was an opportunity to in portraits -- the portraits of the three women, which is what I think is being represented here, together. I'm not going to put a lot of weight on www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 190 number 3, because I -- like the early speakers, I was really blown away with number 7 and number 8. I think 7 and 8 do, through artistic elegance and with an ease and with great success, what some of the other obverses try to do with greater effort and less success. For example, number 10, you get inspiration and you get aspiration. And with 7 and 8, you get inspiration, you get aspiration, you get wonderment, and you get achievement. You get it all. And I just love the way that that was done. I thought number 1 was stiff. I'm so grateful to Dr. Brown for bringing up the idea of greater than or less than. I think that's not a very good thing for us to have in there. impressed with 4 or 6. I wasn't terribly I spent more time than I possibly should have, as it turns out, with number 2. And I just kind of thought, again, this is a real effort to show something. into all of this. than that. And I'm not going to go And it's a collage and it's more But it doesn't work, for reasons that I don't think it's valuable for me to go into here. And then with the reverses, I, again, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 191 was strongly attracted to 4, 7 and 8. And I think 7, as has been said, makes the artistic point and everything come together beautifully. But maybe with Dennis's point about people being in the shadows, we might possibly have to think even more strongly about number 4, which has a universalism about it that I think, again, on the obverse side, 10 and 1 are striving for that universalism. And if you can't show it, like 7 and 8 do on the obverses, at least spell it out clearly, as you have in reverse number 4. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Dean. Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Chairman. Thank you, Mr. I felt that this portfolio was quite strong, and it was interesting to go over all of these designs. I was very, very happy for the opportunity to hear Mary's description of the moon. fact that it's the eye of the night. I loved the And I think that number -- obverse 7 and 8, you know, we have the moon there. We have the Apollo going through the moon and over the women, which I think is quite dynamic. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I Meeting September 23, 2020 192 think that those two designs, like Donald has said, we have to do these. These are absolutely fantastic. puts us over the moon, if I can say that. It We are trying so hard to do a good contemporary medal, and these designs help us do it. So, I would pair 07 -- obverse 07 and reverse 07 together. I love the fact that Andromeda means Chained Woman. they were. It is the hidden woman. And the obverse shows that they have come out and done some fabulous work. choices. It is what So, those are my I think that number 4, reverse 4, deserves some recognition. But, I think, then, if we use that, even though it tells a story, if we use that it becomes another ordinary medal. not do ordinary. I am so desperate to These reverse and obverse 7 and 8 give us extraordinary designs. Thank you, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Jeanne. DR. VAN ALFEN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Peter? I have to admit that initially I was a little conflicted by the silhouette in number 7 and 8, as Dennis was, you know, by the sense of keeping these www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 193 women still in the shadows. But, I think that conflict was basically overwritten by the fact that this really would be an amazingly just impressive medal. And, of course, this really depends on the execution, on how, you know, the incuse and different levels of that obverse, you know, will be worked out. And I would be very curious to hear from Joe his thoughts on that. So, at the moment, I have to concur that I also have a preference for obverse 7, and pairing that with reverse 7. As for the rest of the portfolio, I have to admit that obverse 1 seemed a little bit too much like the movie poster to me, which also featured three facing women. And I'm also not very particular to facing portraits anyway, coins and medals. I just think that there often are just too many problems with the execution of those. Obverse 4, you know, actually when I first looked at that I thought the astronaut was sneaking up on her and about to poke the back of the head. So, I couldn't quite get away from, you know, that, you know, visual pun, I guess. So, I'm not www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 194 particular to that. Obverse 10, you know, I thought was, you know, a good -- you know, generally good obverse design. But it, again, I really feel that 7 is much stronger. As for the reverses, again, you know, I think pairing reverse 7 with obverse 7 will provide us, you know, with a really great medal. do like four. But, I also I think that, you know, in terms of an ordinary medal it certainly would be an acceptable reverse. And like Dennis too, I really like the dynamism of 11 and 12, and particularly 12 I think is really quite something. Although I couldn't quite get away, also, from the hands there looking a little bit too much like lotus hands. So, you know, that, to me, was a little distracting, even though I do think that it adds, you know, something to that design. I also have to admit that reverses 15 and 16, I thought, were really great designs. really wonder how that would be executed. I just There are, certainly, some medals that exist that have, you know, reverses like that, where you have very textured, you www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 195 know, sort of square or rectangular type shapes. But, you know, I just don't quite know how that would actually be executed. So, you know, I think that those are nice designs, I'm just not sure how, you know, they would work on a medal itself. So, again, my preferences are obverse 7 and reverse 7. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Mr. Chair, this is Mary. May I make one more comment? half more comments. Or actually, one and a People were -- especially Dennis, who were worried about keeping figures hidden in obverse 7, still in the shadows, you know what, that's everyone. We all are hidden like that when we're gazing at the moon. We're all that way. And so -- and then my other thing is the, so far nontrademarked, Lannin tabletop method, which is if we struck every one of these designs and laid them out on a table, guess which one you would pick up. number 7. I think it's So, anyway, that's all I have to say. Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: Could I add one more comment as well, Mr. Chairman? This is Donald www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 196 Scarinci. Mr. Chairman? Tom, are you muted? CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. SCARINCI: to say two things. Yes, Donald. Okay. Go ahead. Yeah, I just want I mean, I really think, you know, after listening to everybody's comments, you know, I think we -- if there is no, you know -- if we have the opportunity to do a medal, you know, that OSS medal is really special. of art. You know, it stands out. It's a work This would be a work of art, if we paired 7 to 7 -- you know, 7 obverse, 7 reverse, it's a work of art. And, you know, for people who, you know, are concerned that, you know, if you pick it up you're not -- you know, without having something spelled out for you the way reverse 4 does, that, you know, you're somehow going to lose something, you really aren't. Because anyone who is going to buy this medal or, you know, care to buy this medal is really going to, you know, enjoy the research. And that's -- you know, and I'm sure, you know, the pamphlet or the description online will also indicate that. So, you know, the research is part of the fun www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 197 of numismatics. You know, Dennis. And, you know, I don't want to say anything about being bold. But, you know, that double eagle that you did was pretty bold. You know. So, if you can do the double eagle, this as a medal, you know, this is really a cool medal. I mean, I could see this actually winning an award, you know, as Jeanne is reacting as well, you know. Dr. van Alfen is reacting the same way. And I'm sure Obtusely speaking. So, I think I'm not as worried about -I'm not really as worried about, you know, not spelling it out on the reverse. Because anybody who is really -- anyone who is going to get it, because they're -- knows what it means. Anybody who is going to buy it is erudite enough, and, you know, to really want to look it up. And that's part of the fun of numismatics, is looking this stuff up and learning this stuff. So, I think the only question for me, I would want to kick over to, you know, to Joe Menna, which is, you know, given the fact that we're playing www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 198 with incuse, are we better off -- if we go with obverse 7, you know, can we pull off obverse -- or, reverse 7 or do you have to do a reverse 8 because of the incuses. in my mind. I guess it's just a technical question, But, otherwise, if Joe says he can pull this off, I say 7 and 7 is the way to go. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Donald. before we move on to Joe, my thoughts over this. And And Dean, I'll have to tell you, obverse number 2 it is artistic. There's no question about it. think it represents the whole portfolio. portfolio is very artistic. And then I The whole So, I would ask the committee when you vote on this portfolio that you would take a little bit of extra time and score for merit as well. I think that that should be recognized. And then also, when we reviewed the other two, Dorothy and Mary, please turn in your scoresheets for Mary on those. You can send them to Jennifer and Greg, so that they have those. It's important, I think, the portfolio for the Congressional Gold Medals -- I think we should give www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 199 the artists our feedback as it relates to merit, all three of these portfolios. So, after the conclusion of this meeting if people would do those other two. You know, just the subject matter itself, when it comes to Congressional Gold Medals, are powerful. That, you know, whatever liaisons or family members -- it's certainly powerful, but it isn't often that we get a chance to go with a wow. We had that chance, as Mary mentioned, with the design in 2018. But I think we're here, again, with a wow. And it's not often that we get to be able to have a wow on the obverse and the reverse. And so, having said that, I congratulate the artists and I think we all have on the merits for all the designs. wow is the 7 and 7, to me. But, the wow And that's what I'm going to go with. So, having said that, Joe, could you make any comment as it relates to the minting process and how this is going to come off, if the committee should choose to go this direction. MR. MENNA: you. Yes, Mr. Chairman. Thank I would just describe them both as if I -- and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 200 Ron, correct me if I'm off, if it's not coinable, but you know, everything you see in black is the field. And the stars are a step up. The moon is maybe another tiny little step up. And then the rocket and the trail are the final step up. So, I think that's eminently doable. And then with the reverse 7, this it's a little bit different. -- The black is the field. The ashes, I would keep them low, because any draft on them is going to make them appear bigger. The moon -- the crescent would be a bit of a step up. And then, finally, the constellation itself would be a step up, slightly, from the moon, or perhaps at the same level, inscribed into the moon, if it goes too high. But, I think these pairs will be doable. But if Ron would know better if there would be any conflicts. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Thank you, Joe. And if there's no any further discussion, I'd like the committee to score the obverse and reverse designs for the -MR. TUCKER: Mr. Chair? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 201 CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. TUCKER: Yes. This is Dennis. like to make a few more comments. I would I realize that I'm kind of talking into the wind, but, for the record, I'd like to make a few observations. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. TUCKER: comments here. Go ahead. Thank you. Just a couple The purpose of a Congressional Gold Medal is to honor, recognize, and memorialize its recipient or its subject matter. Medals are national medals. Congressional Gold They're not playgrounds for experimentation in design. It's wonderful when they can be, and if that opportunity exists. But, fundamentally and primarily and first, we should make sure that they honor, recognize and memorialize their recipients. The reason that the silhouettes and the silhouetted figures in the OSS medal worked is because that was the nature of OSS agents and officers. work was clandestine. It was secret. Their It was hidden. And if it wasn't, then they weren't doing their jobs great. That is what is being celebrated and spoken to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 202 in the OSS. That's why that medal works with a silhouette design. With the Hidden Figures mathematicians and scientists, they did amazing work and they did work that benefited the national security and advancement of the United States. should celebrate. That is what we The fact that they were hidden is actually a sad part of their history. unfortunate part of their history. That's an And I think to celebrate that part with innovative design is gimmicky, and not a respectful way to treat the subject matter. Again, I realize that this might not make a difference. But, I wanted to make those observations for the record. Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: you. Okay, Dennis. Thank And at this time, the committee will now score the obverse and reverse designs for the Hidden Figures group Congressional Gold Medal. Each of you was mailed the email from the Mint, and should have received it. I'd ask that you please fill that out, cut and paste or photograph, whatever display it is, and return those sheets to our counsel, Greg Weinman. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 203 Greg will tally the scores and present the results. What do you think, Greg? Ten minutes, 15? MR. WEINMAN: least 15 minutes. Let's give ourselves at I think it will take at least that. CHAIRMAN URAM: recess for 15 minutes. Okay. We'll be in And you might want to keep your phones on, just so that in case Greg needs to check with you on something. Okay. We are now in recess. Thank you. (Off the record.) CHAIRMAN URAM: Let me just do a quick recall, just to make sure that we're all back. Brown, present? DR. BROWN: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. SCARINCI: Present, yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. MORAN: Mike? Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. LANNIN: Donald Scarinci? Mary? Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Robin? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Dr. Meeting September 23, 2020 204 MS. SALMON: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. GILL: Sam? Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. TUCKER: Dennis? Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Dean? DR. KOTLOWSKI: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Jeanne? Jeanne, are you there? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN URAM: Sorry. Are you muted? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: you hear me? have quorum. Yes, here. Can Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: Peter? DR. VAN ALFEN: Yes, Peter is present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. And Greg, we Everyone is present. MR. WEINMAN: Okay. I'm ready to provide the scores from the Hidden Figures group Congressional Gold Medal, once again, the -- out of the possible 33 points. So, for the obverse, obverse 1 received www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 205 five. Obverse 2 received two. ten. Obverse 4 received three. three. getter. Obverse 3 received Obverse 7 received 32. Obverse 6 received This is the high vote- Obverse 8 received 18. And obverse 10 receive six. For the reverses, reverse 1 received three. five. one. Reverse 2 received two. Reverse 4 received ten. Reverse 3 received Reverse 5 received Reverse six received three. 29, the high vote-getter. Reverse 7 received And reverse 8 received 16. Reverse 9 received two. Reverse 10 received six. Reverse 11 received 11. Reverse 12 received eight. Reverse 13 received two. Reverse 14 received two. Reverse 15 received four. Reverse 16 received three. CHAIRMAN URAM: The selection of the committee is obverse and reverse 7. MR. WEINMAN: And reverse -- Tom, you're breaking up. CHAIRMAN URAM: Oh, I lost it. Are you there? MR. WEINMAN: You're breaking up, Tom. CHAIRMAN URAM: Oh, okay. So, right now we just needed clarification on reverse 7. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Is Meeting September 23, 2020 206 everybody here? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. WEINMAN: Okay. So -- Once again, if everybody on the line could mute your phones if you're not speaking. There's clearly somebody with an open line. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. So, it's the intent of the committee that we'll go with obverse 7 and reverse 7. that. We don't necessarily need a motion on Everyone is satisfied with that. Okay. I think it will be a terrific wow medal for sure. And with that, Greg, thank you for your help in tallying. It gets kind of challenging, especially over the phone. And now I'd like to ask April if she would, the Chief of the Mint's Office of Design, will present the candidate obverse and reverse designs for the David J. Ryder United States Mint Director model. April? MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. The Department of the Treasury has a long-standing tradition of striking official bronze medals for each www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 207 Mint director. In fact, that Mint has produced medals for 29 of the last 38 directors of the Mint. Director Ryder did have a medal produced for his first term. And this medal will mark the third time that the Mint has produced two medals for a Mint director who served nonconsecutive terms. Director Ryder worked closely with the chief engraver to develop preferred designs for his medal. We have a single obverse and a single reverse design for your consideration. attention to obverse 1. So, I draw your It features a portrait of Director Ryder in profile, with the inscription “David J. Ryder.” Reverse 1 features a bald eagle with a shield atop a wreath of oak and laurel. The inscription is “34th and 39th Director of the United States Mint." Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. Well, with a little bit of risk, Joe, would you like to say anything about this? You were intricately involved. So, you may speak at your own risk. MR MENNA: Mr. Chairman, all I'm going www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 208 to say is I had a really good art director. Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: Politically correct. Ron, anything to add? MR. HARRIGAL: No, I think the results speak for themselves. CHAIRMAN URAM: very much. Okay. Thank you all So, let us begin our considerations. And I would like to know if there is anyone that is in objection to the proposed obverse 1 and reverse 1. If there are none, I would like a motion to approve by unanimous consent. And who would like to make a motion? MS. LANNIN: Mary Lannin, so moved. MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: I'll second it. Okay. CHAIRMAN URAM: you all. Mary and Donald, thank And that was probably the best vote. Are there any other additional comments or motions for the members at this time? If there aren't -- or further discussion? DR. VAN ALFEN: This is Peter. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I just Meeting September 23, 2020 209 want to make a comment about the David J. Ryder medal. CHAIRMAN URAM: Sure. DR. VAN ALFEN: I really think this is a great portrait. And I really like this medal much better than the earlier David Ryder Director of the Mint medal. I think that this is, you know, a very good portrait. I love the profile. Very classic. And it will sit well with, you know, a number of the other Mint Director medals. You know, especially in the ANS collection, when we finally get a copy of this. So, congratulations to Joe on this. MR. MENNA: Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: likewise, tremendous. Thank you. And Joe, And thank you, Peter. Any other comments? MR. SCARINCI: I just want to, you know, pay an extreme compliment to the subject of the medal. I think -- you know, I've seen six or -- six Mint directors, acting Mint directors. I mean, what has taken place since this director has become the director is astronomical. You know, he took an institution that changes glacially, that has its own www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 210 way about it, and, you know, he's come up with new ideas. He thinks outside of the box. He's personally engaged in just about, you know, everything that involves us, for sure, and his appointments, you know, have all been, you know, amazing. wonderful. They've been The people that we deal with and the people -- you know, what's going on, you know, with the artists, you know, with Joe Menna in charge, is just remarkable. So, I just want to -- you know, and I know we all feel the same way. I just wanted to say something about the subject of the medal. it's a great medal. And yes, And in spite of what he says, you know, I think it does look like him, and that's a compliment. CHAIRMAN URAM: you, Donald. There you go. Thank Just to remind everybody that please turn in your merit sheets for -- any sheets that weren't turned in, please turn in for scoring for merits for the artists. That would be terrific. I'd like to thank all of the CCAC members and the Mint www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 211 staff, and especially our liaisons for their attendance over the last two days. And the next CCAC meeting will be on November 17th of 2020. announced in the Federal Register. It will be A decision will be made depending on the current situation with COVID-19 as to whether it will be in person or at the United States Mint headquarters, or telephonic. keep you posted on that. on that. So, we'll But you can keep an eye out At this time, I'd like to entertain a motion to adjourned. MS. SALMON: This is Robin. CHAIRMAN URAM: So moved. Robin, thank you. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: And this is Jeanne, second. CHAIRMAN URAM: Second, thank you. All those in favor, say aye. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Aye. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: UNIDENTIFIED MALE: CHAIRMAN URAM: Aye. Aye. Aye. All ayes, I think. And so, the meeting stands adjourned at 3:12 Eastern time. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 212 Thank you all very much. (Whereupon, at 3:12 p.m., the proceeding as concluded.) www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 213 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, ANDREW ADAMS, the officer before whom the foregoing proceedings were taken, do hereby certify that any witness(es) in the foregoing proceedings, prior to testifying, were duly sworn; that the proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting by a qualified transcriptionist; that said digital audio recording of said proceedings are a true and accurate record to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. ANDREW ADAMS Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 23, 2020 214 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER I, JANE W. GILLIAM, do hereby certify that this transcript was prepared from the digital audio recording of the foregoing proceeding, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. JANE W. GILLIAM www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376