The full text on this page is automatically extracted from the file linked above and may contain errors and inconsistencies.
Meeting September 22, 2020 1 CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE ________________________________ CCAC PUBLIC MEETING ________________________________ DATE: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 TIME: 11:00 a.m. LOCATION: Telephonic Meeting Washington, DC 20005 REPORTED BY: Andrew Adams, Notary Public JOB No.: 4228601 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 2 A P P E A R A N C E S List of Attendees: CCAC MEMBERS: TOM URAM, Moderator and Chair SAM GILL ROBERT HOGE DR. DEAN KOTLOWSKI MARY LANNIN MICHAEL MORAN ROBIN SALMON DONALD SCARINCI JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN DENNIS TUCKER DR. LAWRENCE BROWN DR. PETER VAN ALFEN UNITED STATES MINT: DAVID J. RYDER, Director APRIL STAFFORD, Chief, Office of Design Management MEGAN SULLIVAN, Senior Design Manager BONEZA HANCHOK, Design Manager PAM BORER, Design Manager www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 3 A P P E A R A N C E S (cont'd) List of Attendees: RUSSEL EVANS, Design Manager JOE MENNA, Mint Chief Engraver RON HARRIGAL, Manager of Design and Engraving JENNIFER WARREN, Director of Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs GREG WEINMAN, Counsel to the CCAC BETTY BIRDSONG, Deputy Director of Legislative Affairs ALSO PRESENT: DR. GLENN WILLIAMS, Liaison and U.S. Center of Military History Senior Historian MIKE UNSER, Coin News BRANDON HALL, Coin Update www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 4 E X H I B I T S NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE (*None marked.) www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 5 P R O C E E D I N G S CHAIRMAN URAM: morning everyone. Okay. Well, good I'd like to call this meeting of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee for Tuesday, September 22, 2020. This is the first day of a two- day public meeting. I'd like each member to mute his or her phone when not talking and to announce your name at the beginning of each time you speak. Additionally, I remind the public to mute your phone and that there is listening and only hearing for the public. Thank you. Before we begin, I'd like to introduce the members of the Committee, and please respond "present" when I call your name. Sam Gill? MR. GILL: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Dr. Brown? Dr. Lawrence Brown? I got some feedback there. Dr. Brown, are you on? Dr. Dean Kotlowski? DR. KOTLOWSKI: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. Mary www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 6 Lannin? MS. LANNIN: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. MORAN: Thank you. Mike Moran? Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. SALMON: Robin Salmon? Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. Donald Scarinci? MR. SCARINCI: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thanks. Jeanne Stevens-Sollman? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN URAM: Present. Thank you. Dennis Tucker? MR. TUCKER: you join in? Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Dr. Peter van Alfen? DR. VAN ALFEN: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Back to Dr. Brown. Okay. Did We'll come back if he gets back on. I'm Thomas Uram of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee. We do have a quorum. We do have www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 7 a quorum. In addition, I heard, but for the record, is Robert Hoge on the line? MR. HOGE: Yes, present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Robert. Today's agenda is for the day one for this public meeting, and it includes the recognition of service by member Robert Hoge to the CCAC and the swearing in of our new CCAC member, Dr. Peter van Alfen. We will then ask for the acceptance letters to the secretary and approval of the minutes from our June 2020 meeting. Following, we will have a review and discussion today of the obverse and reverse candidate designs for the 2022 U.S. Army Silver Medal. Before we -- who just joined? Okay. Before we begin our proceedings, would members of the press please identify yourself on the phone and your organization. Brandon is on? MR. HALL: Yeah, Brandon Hall with Coin Update. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. UNSER: Thank you, Brandon. Mike Unser with Coin News. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. Anyone www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 8 else? Okay. For the record, I would like to confirm the following Mint staff that are on the call today. Please indicate present after I've called your name. Director of the United States Mint, David Ryder? DIRECTOR RYDER: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. From the Office of Design Management, the Chief, April Stafford, April? MS. STAFFORD: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. Senior Design Specialist, Megan Sullivan? MS. SULLIVAN: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Design Manager, Pam Borer? MS. BORER: Thank you, Pam. CHAIRMAN URAM: Hanchok? Design Manager, Boneza Boneza? MS. BONEZA: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Manager, Roger Vasquez? Thank you. Roger? DR. BROWN: Design Okay. Lawrence Brown. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 9 CHAIRMAN URAM: Lawrence, thank you. Design Manager Russell Evans? MR. EVANS: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. The United States Chief Engraver, Joe Menna. MR. MENNA: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. Manager of Design and Engraving, Ron Harrigal. MR. HARRIGAL: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: And our Director of Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs and the Liaison to the CCAC Jennifer Warren? MS. WARREN: Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. Our Senior Legal Counsel and Counsel to the CCAC Mr. Greg Weinman? MR. WEINMAN: Good morning, Tom, present. CHAIRMAN URAM: you. Good morning. Thank Deputy Director of Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs Betty Birdsong. MS. BIRDSONG: Betty? Present. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 10 CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. Roger joins, Roger, have you joined yet? sure he'll join shortly. Back to if Okay. I'm And finally, the Liaison for the 2022 United States Army Silver Medal is Dr. Glenn Williams. Did I hear that he was joining at about 11:20, did someone say? MS. BORER: That's correct. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. BORER: Okay. So we'll -- This is Pam, by the way. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Thank you. We will recognize him at that time. I would like to begin with the minutes. Are there any issues that need to be addressed before we start? MS. WARREN: There is none? CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. WARREN: Pardon me? This is Jennifer. There is none. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Hearing none, we'll move to the first order of business, and that's the recognition of the service of Robert Hoge. Robert has served for eight years in www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 11 the position of a member who is qualified by virtue of his or her education, training or experience as a nationally or internationally recognized curator in the United States of Numismatic Collection. Robert was first appointed to the CCAC in 2012. He was reappointed to the same position in June of 2016. His term ended in June of 2020 and has been serving in a holdover status until the secretary appointed his successor which occurred last month. Robert was appointed to the position due in significant part to his extensive experience as a numismatic curator for the American Numismatic Association and the American Numismatic Society. Robert has served as curator of the American Numismatic Association from 1981 to 2001 and Curator Emeritus at the American Numismatic Society where he served as curator of North American Coins and Currency, and that was from 2001 until 2013. During his eight years of service on the CCAC, Robert has brought his expertise and thoughtfulness to each of the meetings, and over the years Robert and I have developed that numismatic www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 12 relationship that we all get, particularly, as being part of this organization but, particularly, his involvement at the ANA and so forth. And a number of us have those special relationships, and Robert, you're certainly a mentor. And what you brought to the Committee and numismatics is priceless. And I know that Member Dennis Tucker would also like to make a comment. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I've known Robert Hoge, and I've worked with him on a variety of projects over the past 15 years or so. He's written book chapters that I've edited and published. We co-taught a class on research and writing at the American Numismatic Association Summer Seminar a few years ago, and for four years, we've been collaborators here on the CCAC. Bob Hoge has always brought sharp insight, unparallel knowledge and good humor to the Committee's discussions. I believe the Mint has made an excellent in Peter van Alfen as our new specialist in numismatic curation. That does soften the loss of our longstanding curator as we move forward. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 13 But we'll miss Robert Hoge, and I thank my friend and wish him the best. Thank you, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Dennis. And once again Robert, your experience and your thoughtfulness reach out to the numismatic world from many avenues. You are certainly recognized and to say not the least in the timeframe you spent here at the CCAC. Director Ryder would also like to say a few words. Director Ryder? DIRECTOR RYDER: Thanks, Tom. I want to first thank Robert for his eight years of service to the United States Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee. Robert, I personally want to tell you I'm going to miss you, pal. You've done a great job. You're a true numismatic academic, and you've been an exceptionally dedicated member of the CCAC since your first appointment back in 2012. But over the past eight years, you've also consistently provided thoughtful and insightful www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 14 feedback, and your contributions will forever be linked to the development of many of the most recognizable United States coins and medals. Thank you for your service as a member specifically qualified in numismatic curation from 2012 to 2020. At some point, hopefully in the not too distant future, we will invite you back in person to present you with a Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Public Service Award back here in Washington so we can appropriately recognize your eight-year contribution to the United States Mint and to the CCAC. So for anyone who's not aware, the CCAC Public Award includes a framed certification, a three-inch Alexander Hamilton Secretary's Medal and Robert's choice of a three-inch bronze duplicate medal reviewing during his past 10 years as a CCAC member. Maybe he'll select my -- my medal that's being looked at today. Who knows? MR. HOGE: That would be my choice. DIRECTOR RYDER: But on a serious note, I just want you to know that everybody from the Board thanks you and congratulates you for your citizenship www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 15 and your service and your dedication to the U.S. government, to the United States Mint and to the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee. So Robert, we're going to miss you, buddy. You've done a great job. God speed. don't make yourself a stranger around here. And You're always going to be welcomed back. MR. HOGE: Thank you very much, David. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Director Ryder. Now I would like to allow Robert to say a few words. Unfortunately, Robert, as you know, doing this remotely is very difficult. But there are certainly rounds of applause following Director Ryder's comments. And we look forward to having you formally back at a formal meeting, but if you have a few words today, that would be great. We'd love to hear from you. MR. HOGE: Thank you very much, Tom. must say I'm really touched and pleased and have to tell you it's been a great privilege for me to serve in this position. And it's really been a wonderful www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I Meeting September 22, 2020 16 pleasure to see the fantastic team of talented and dedicated people who work at the U.S. Mint as the staff and the artists and the many talented people in all capacities. It has also been a wonderful opportunity for me to get to know and to work with the other members of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee. All in all, for me this has been a wonderful experience of public service, and I have enjoyed the relationships with everyone. I would like to thank all of you, and I look forward to continuing to associate as much as possible with all of the fantastic people that I have come to know. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Robert, and a round of applause for sure. And we look forward to seeing you in person when we can and our best to you and the family. And we'll get all through some of this other that we're doing, and we'll see you in person. MR. HOGE: Thank you very much. I'd like to say, too, that I'm really pleased at my friend www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 17 and colleague, Peter van Alfen who's been selected as my successor. He's also a fellow westerner and followed me to the ANS shortly after I started there. I'm sure he will be a wonderful addition to this Committee. Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: our next order of business. Perfect. And that is And that is the introduction and swearing in of Dr. Peter van Alfen who will begin serving in the same position that Robert held. Dr. Peter van Alfen was appointed by Secretary Mnuchin on August 11th of 2020. Peter is the current chief curator at the American Numismatic Society and has been at the ANS for nearly 20 years. Additionally, he served on the J. Sanford Saltus Award Committee, creation of several of the ANS online resources and directs the Society's Eric P. Newman Summer Graduate Seminar. Peter has also served 15 years as an editor of the ANS magazine, has published books and articles on ancient coinage and monetary systems and U.S. and European medallic art. Let's all welcome Dr. van Alfen, a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 18 round of applause, indeed. At this time I would like to call on Director David Ryder of the United States Mint who will at this time administer the oath of office. Director Ryder? DIRECTOR RYDER: Thanks again, Tom. And welcome Peter to the CCAC Advisory Committee. You're a very knowledgeable and qualified person for this slot as the curator. You've got big shoes to fill from Robert's leaving. MR. HOGE: Thank you. DIRECTOR RYDER: We all know that you will do that job in an outstanding manner. In just a moment, I have the honor of administering the oath of office, and with this oath, you will fill a unique and special position on the CCAC previously held, as I said, a very select group of people: Ute Wartenberg, Arthur Houghton and, of course, Robert Hoge. So Dr. van Alfen, Peter, if you don't mind, please raise your right hand and repeat after me. DR. VAN ALFEN: DIRECTOR RYDER: All right. I do solemnly swear www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 19 that I will support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. DR. VAN ALFEN: I do solemnly swear that I will protect the constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. DIRECTOR RYDER: That I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same. DR. VAN ALFEN: That I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same. DIRECTOR RYDER: That I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion. DR. VAN ALFEN: That I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or obligation. DIRECTOR RYDER: That I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I'm about to enter. DR. VAN ALFEN: I'm sorry. Could you repeat that? DIRECTOR RYDER: That I will and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 20 faithfully discharge the duties of the -DR. VAN ALFEN: That I will and faithfully discharge the duties of this office -DIRECTOR RYDER: -- which I'm about to enter. DR. VAN ALFEN: -- which I'm about to enter. DIRECTOR RYDER: Peter, congratulations, and welcome to the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee. We all, including me, especially me, look forward to having you as a new team member. You've got a great group of people you're going to working with. And now I'd like you to -- give you the opportunity to say a few words if you'd like. DR. VAN ALFEN: Ryder. Thank you, Director It really is a privilege and an honor for me to join this Committee. This is a Committee I've been aware of for quite some time because I've had colleagues such as Ute and Robert on the Committee. I really have wanted to participate in this process. So the fact that I am joining this Committee really to me is, you know, a significant www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 21 honor. And I very much look forward to the service. But I just want to follow up on a couple of comments that you, yourself, have made as well as Tom and Dennis about Robert Hoge. You know, I've worked with Robert for, you know, a dozen years or so here at the ANS. I have to say as Tom said he very much was a mentor to me as well. In fact, I used to joke that he was a walking numismatic encyclopedia which he truly is. His numismatic knowledge and, in fact, historical knowledge is just astounding. So I really do feel that, you know, there are big shoes to fill as you said. I do hope I'll be able to call upon Bob on occasion for questions or comments as they come up. So thank you. DIRECTOR RYDER: Peter. Thanks very much, Welcome aboard. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. your dedication in joining the CCAC. Thanks for With that, let's turn to some additional busines we have at the Committee today. The first item on the agenda is the review and approval of the minutes and secretary www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 22 letters from our last meeting. Are there any comments on the documents? Hearing none, is there a motion to approve the minutes and letters? DR. BROWN: This is Lawrence Brown. I move to approve the minutes and the letters. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Dr. Brown. Is there a second? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Jeanne Stevens-Sollman -- I second. CHAIRMAN URAM: objections? Thank you, Jeanne. Any If not, all in favor signify by saying "aye." ALL: Aye. CHAIRMAN URAM: thank you. Without objection -- Without objection, the minutes and letters are approved. Moving along now, April Stafford, the Chief of the Mint's Office Design Management will present the candidate obverse and reverse designs for the 2022 United States Army Silver Medal. But before we do that is -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 23 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: CHAIRMAN URAM: Hello? I just wanted to see if the liaison joined our call yet? DR. WILLIAMS: Yes, Glenn Williams. I'm here. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Okay. Thank you. April, thank you. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. And Dr. Williams, if you don't mind, if you're able to mute your phone, at the end of the introduction, I'll ask you if you'd like to make a few comments before the Committee deliberates on the candidate design. Okay. DR. WILLIAMS: Sure. MS. STAFFORD: All right. Thank you. So some background -- the United States Army Silver Medal is the last in the series of the armed forces medals that pay tribute to each service for its history and unique character. The medals for this program will be struck on a two-inch diameter planchette containing 2.5 ounces of silver. Designs were previously developed for the United States Air Force, Coast Guard, Navy and Marine Corps. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 24 Created on June 14, 1775, by a resolution of the continental congress, the Army is the oldest of the United States armed forces and has been protecting and defending America even before the nation's founding. Through its original mission of defending American liberty in the 13 colonies, the Army proved its capabilities and persisted through the challenges and demands of a difficult eight-year war to secure the independence of this new nation. Since then the Army has grown into the principal ground-fighting force that serves the needs of the American people and our nation in many ways. In addition to defending the country, the Army protects national interests and fulfills military responsibilities including defending America's allies, engaging in peacekeeping and humanitarian operations and responding to noncombat emergencies. In developing the portfolio, the United States Mint has worked closely with Dr. Glenn Williams a senior historian for the U.S. Army Center of Military History to identify appropriate concepts and ensure historical and technical accuracy. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 25 Multiple designs are favored by the stakeholder, and preferences are listed along with the design description. Dr. Williams is with us for today's discussion so should you have any questions about the designs or the identified preferences he's available to respond. Dr. Williams, will you please say a few words before we begin the candidate designs? DR. WILLIAMS: Again, thank you for doing this as representing Army history and commemorations function of the Army Center Military History we think is most appropriate, and we're glad we're invited to participate. MS. STAFFORD: Wonderful. Thank you. So Mr. Chairman, as we did last time with our virtual meeting, I'll be moving through the obverse and reverse design, but because the Committee has received the design descriptions, I will only stop and read the descriptions of the designs that have been identified as a preference or a favored design by one of our stakeholders or our liaison or the CFA. CHAIRMAN URAM: That is fine. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 26 MS. STAFFORD: Okay. If I could just ask everybody to mute your phone as we move through the candidate. designs. We will start with the obverse We have Obverse 1, 2, 3, 3A, Obverse 4. Obverse 4 symbolizes the history of the United States Army through depictions of soldiers from different eras. The foreground features a modern-day soldier in combat uniform aiming an M-4 rifle and a continental soldier brandishing a musket. The smaller figures in the background include a Civil War era Union cavalryman and World War II paratroopers. Included inscriptions are "U.S. Army" and "One Team One Fight." Obverse 4 is an obverse design favored by the stakeholder, Dr. Williams. In addition, this design was one of two obverse designs recommended by the Commission of Fine Arts. Moving onto Obverse 5, 6, 6A, 6B, 7, 9, 11, 12, 12A and Obverse 13. Obverse 13 depicts a continental soldier and a modern soldier at the ready with the weapons of their respective era. They www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 27 represent the continuity of the United States Army since its beginnings and its continuing mission to defend our country. Included inscriptions are "This We’ll Defend" and "Since 1775." Again, Obverse 13 is an obverse design favored by the stakeholder, Dr. Williams. In addition, this design was one of two obverse designs recommended by the CFA. That concludes the obverse designs, moving onto the reverse designs. and Reverse 2. We have Reverse 1 Reverse 2 juxtaposes the seven core values of the Army against the U.S. Army flag with both the flag and its streamers lifted by a breeze. The streamers from several major battles have visible text, Lexington 1775, Appomattox 1865, the Meuse-Argonne from 1918, Luzon 1944 to 1945, Normandy 1944 and Abeyance 2014 to 2015. Inscriptions are the Army's seven core values of loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity and personal courage. Reverse 2 is a reverse design favored by the stakeholder, Dr. Williams. In addition this www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 28 design was one of two reverses recommended by the CFA. Moving on we have Reverse 3, 4, 4A, 5, Reverse 6. Reverse 6 features the Army's seven core values of loyalty, duty, selfless service, respect, integrity, personal courage and honor centrally inscribed. Around the bottom border the United States Army emblem is flanked by laurel branches. The addition inscription "United States Army" is arced across the top. Reverse 6 is a reverse design favored by the stakeholder, Dr. Williams. In addition, this design was one of two reverse designs recommended by the CFA. Moving on, we have Reverse 7 and 8. And Mr. Chairman, that concludes the candidate designs. Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, April. And thank you, Dr. Williams, also for all the time that has gone into the significant silver medal design. And with that, I would like to now ask if Joe Menna or Ron Harrigal have anything to share with the Committee as it goes to the design of the metal. Joe? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 29 MR. MENNA: Some of the flags might be a little difficult due to coin size, but I think they're doable artistically. So that would be my only concern. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay, Joe. Thank you. Ron, any additional comments? MR. HARRIGAL: I have no comments. Yes, this is Ron. No, Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Are there any technical or legal questions from the Committee about the designs before we get into our general discussions? Since there are none, let's begin our consideration. I would like all members to please try to keep their comments to five minutes or less. Don't forget to identify yourself when you start. We will keep track of the time, and we will indicate when time is up. And we'll ask that you please wrap up your comments when you hear that. Additionally, if any members have questions or comments to anything please refrain if you would like to bring them up when recognized at the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 30 end and when we ask for additional comments. Donald? MR. SCARINCI: 1. I like -- I like Obverse You know, it's certainly better than Obverse 4. What I don't like about Obverse 4 is the -- you know, there's too much going on with the parachutes and, you know, the horse. And those objects are just too small on the -- on the -- for the palette. So this, again, I mean I know people like it because it crams a lot of information into -into the obverse of a medal, but by doing that -- we always talk about -- we always talk about collages. We used to call them story boards. They're collages. That's a collage to get a lot of things in it. And I think we really make the point in a simple, clean way with the colonial soldier and contemporary soldier. I liked 1. Certainly, if -- you know, I certainly see -- I could certainly, you know, see the attraction for Obverse 13. accomplishes the same thing. It So you know, I would rather see 13 than 4. In terms of the reverse, I understand www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 31 the recommended reverse, the attraction for that -- to Reverse 2. I kind of like -- I kind of like Reverse 4, though. You know, I think that's kind of interesting, and I could see people, you know -- you know, looking at that -- at that medal and really looking, you know, at the battles. There's a little more history in Reverse 4, you know, and a little more known history, you know, than these -- than these basic slogans which I'm sure they have meaning for people in the military, you know. But I think from a general public point of view, Reverse -- Reverse 4 would be my preference. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Donald. Michael, Mike Moran? MR. MORAN: 13. I'm here. I like Obverse I think it's a good use of negative space. simple in terms of the inscriptions. It's There's in action in there in terms if you look at the Revolutionary soldier. of his jacket. The wind is blowing the tail All around I think it's well-executed. I like it better than any of the others. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 32 In terms of the reverse, I think that No. 2 is a creative design in terms of handling the inscriptions that need to be handled. You don't get totally overwhelmed with the streamers on the flag because the ones that are engraved or inscribed are kept at a minimum. It will get my vote. But then you go down to No. 4. has a point. Donald I'm reminded of the governor's mansion at Williamsburg. And there is a display in there as you walk into the main, I guess, atrium of that building. Instead of the streamers, it is rifles or muskets in this case in a semi-circle across the top. It's a very common use of weapons to denote power from the very beginnings of the United States. This is a creative way of displaying the campaign ribbons and streamers. Vietnam in here. Also you do get I think you have to think about marketing. And those Army veterans that participated in some of these campaigns are going to be looking at that sort of thing. So it does have marketing advantage I think over No. 2. I'll probably www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 33 be splitting my vote between the two. That's it, Tom. CHAIRMAN URAM: you. Okay, Michael. Thank Dr. Brown? DR. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I really am so enthusiastic about this opportunity. And when April said that it was the last, she didn't say this was the best. Now I say that in the interest of full transparency I served in the U.S. Army. Admittedly, I was drafted and served during the Vietnam conflict. So as I think about these designs, I must confess I look at it from the standpoint of how John Q. Public or how someone who's a veteran would be looking at that. In that respect, I can see value in Obverse No. 4 because it does allow for that sense of the different conflicts in which the U.S. Army has been engaged. I must confess I love Obverse 12A because it again has that diversity of different types of conflicts. colleague said. I do appreciate the comments that my But in the design that says "This www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 34 We’ll Defend" for John Q. Public, I'm wanting to -- I have to think about what is it we're defending. With the designs that have the flag, I can sort of understand that better. But from the obverse side, I probably would go between 4 and 12. With respect to the reverse, I just love Reverse 4 because it allows the different banners, but I also must confess the slogans are really something that's important to me as a veteran because "One Team One Fight" really meant something, particularly, when you're in the heat of a battle. Thank you, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Dr. Brown, and especially thank you for your service as well. Mary Lannin? MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. far as the obverses go, I -- I do like No. 1. As I can see what -- what Donald meant when he was talking about it. I find it a very compelling design. But actually, my favorite obverse is going to be -- let me scroll down to it. I also would like to give some kudos to the design for No. 9. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I Meeting September 22, 2020 35 thought that was a very powerful very strong design, but I believe I'm going to give my vote to design No. 13. I think it's very well done. I like the fact that the points of the rifles and guns are off the palette. It makes it more immediate. makes the soldiers larger on the palette. It I just think that's exceedingly well done. Now for the reverse, I see that they had suggested that No. 2 and No. 6 would be reverses. I don’t really favor either one of them. It took me a long, long time to look at Reverse No. 2 and figure out that was actually a flag underneath it that was folded. I don't want to have to think that hard. In terms of Donald kind of voting for 4 or 4A, my immediate thought when I looked at that design was, "Oh, it's a peacock," because of all the banners coming out. So if we all sort of cluster around design No. 4, I think I might prefer 4A because then it's easier when you pick it up in hand to read it and to read the battles. And I do believe that the Vietnam conflict banner should be included in that. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 36 I'm going to throw something new into it. I really liked Reverse 8. You see the banners. It can be any one of any number of fights. You see the core values cleanly laid around on the -- on the outside, and you can almost hear the flags snapping in the breeze. I like the star in the back, and I felt that Joe and Ron and the team could do some really interesting things with that background. And those are my choices. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Mary. Robin? MS. SALMON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. For the obverse, I really prefer Obverse 13 as far as design goes. discussed. It's -- it has the action that's been It has the past and the present. And I also like the fact that the soldier of the present appears to be a woman. That wasn't raised in the description, but I think that's the case judging by the hairstyle. The wording, I think, is perfect. And for that reason, I prefer 13. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 37 However, I also liked 9. I liked the clean aspect of it, again, the past and the present looking -- backward looking forward. excuse me -- 12A. And I like 12 -- I'm not positive how well that will translate to the size of the medal, but I thought that the artist did a wonderful job of depicting the soldiers of the various time periods. For the reverse, No. 2 was something that I did like, but I was bothered by the fact that Vietnam was not included, and for that reason, I think that 4A is the best design for the reverse. include the various significant battles. It does It includes the emblem of the Army, the seven core values. It has everything that needs to be there. And I think the design with the banners going to the right is more compelling than design 4. However, I do believe the artists have done a masterful job with many of these designs. I think it's very difficult to put into a design something that encompasses hundreds of years of activity, and they did a very good job. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 38 CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. GILL: Thank you, Robin. Sam? Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I looked at this medal, I wanted, obviously, the medal to be extremely patriotic and dignified and certainly should depict soldiers somewhere on the medal. And I also wanted the letters "U.S. Army" to only be on one side. So with that in mind, I had two pairings. The first pairing was Obverse No. 4. It's an excellent depiction of the modern and the historical soldier. The modern solider also appears to be female, perhaps, which is a plus. the airborne and the cavalry. It recognizes I mean it's fine. It's nice. And I paired that with Reverse 02. think this is a very, very pretty, pretty design. I And it's not my favorite, but I like it a lot. My preferences are going to be with the U.S. Army on the reverse. obverse would be No. 13. scene. And my preference on the It's a striking motion I like it a lot. Again, the modern soldier appears to be female which is great. It's got the slogan, "This www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 39 We’ll Defend." And it's got the date 1775 which is really, really important. On the reverse, I chose Reverse No. 8 because it includes the seven values. It also includes 1775 which appears on the flag. "One Team One Fight" motto. It includes The campaign streamers are there although not identified, and it includes the Army flag. So my preference would be Obverse 13 with Reverse 8, and I'd like to give a special mention -- I think Mary did this and others -- to Obverse 12. I just love the look of that design. Those are my comments, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay, Sam. Thank you. Dennis Tucker? MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. So the Committee has given its recommendations on the other military service medals. those medals will look like. We don't yet know what I worry that because of that we're reviewing our Army medal as a stand-alone which is fine. When I reviewed the portfolio of design www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 40 candidates, I wanted to avoid repetition of the mint 1975 Army Bicentennial Medal which is a very impressive medal especially at the larger three-inch size. It shows a Revolutionary War soldier and a modern soldier in profile with a fairly plain field. And some of that -- those motifs are here in these candidates, but more detailed and more dramatic in these designs that we're looking at today. But the design that has stood out for me most dramatically is Obverse 1. I look at the potential it has for sculptural, you know, layered effect with the clouds and the sunbeams in the background. And it has an attractive amount of detail in the foreground which I think would work well on a two-inch canvas. Obverse 1 shows the soldiers at the ready rather than engaged in combat, and that might be something I want to follow up with Dr. Williams on whether there's a preference from our liaisons in showing the soldiers actually firing their weapons rather than standing with them and being ready to engage. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 41 I do like Obverse 4 which was one of our liaison recommendations, I believe. It shows the -- it shows the cavalry and the modern soldier engaged in combat. For the reverses, the campaign banners -- I like the concept, but on a two-inch canvas, my concern is that you're just not going to get enough detail for that really to stand out boldly and communicate what we're trying to communicate. Incidentally, for the reverses, the Army emblem with the armor is used centrally on that 1975 bicentennial medal that I mentioned. My preference for the reverse is No. 6 because it communicates simply and directly. And sometimes in the past we've talked medals -- we've talked metaphorically about medal's obverse being active, a verb, showing motion, which are some things that other -- some of my colleagues have mentioned today. And then it's reverse being more explanatory. That's a noun, right? put the text is on the reverse. That's where we So I think some of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 42 the obverses that have more wording are ones that I don't prefer as much. I think Obverse 1 says what it needs to say. It says, "United States Army." action. It's got the Even though these soldiers are not engaged in combat, they're certainly ready to be engaged. So I think that the combination of Obverse 1 and Reverse 6 follows that equation of verb and noun, if you will and makes a good combination. So my questions for Dr. Williams -- I don't know if now is the time to ask them, or if he wants to address them later -- would be is there a preference for combat versus at the ready depictions. Also I had a question -- if he could speak a little bit about the slogan "One Team One Fight," how that developed, how old is that slogan, whether that is something that veterans and actual service members -when we think of the Army service, that would be two questions that might help me to form my decision. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. We'll do that then at the end of -- with questions and answers for Dr. Williams. That will be fine. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 43 MR. TUCKER: Thank you. That concludes my remarks. CHAIRMAN URAM: lost Dean. Thank you, Dennis. We Dean? DR. KOTLOWSKI: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm CHAIRMAN URAM: No problem. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Starting with the here. obverse, I'd like clean, simple designs. I like the on guard or on watch motif with limited text. favorite was actually No. 9. So my And I think it's aligned with some of the other medals that we've at least recommended. I was thinking a little bit of the Canadian national anthem of standing on guard for thee with the two men looking in opposition directions. I thought it was a nice looking medal, and the men were very nice looking as well. After Don's comments, I'm going to give some consideration to No. 1. I'm not as keen on No. 4 or No. 13 because they can -- to mix up a little too much historical metaphor with history. It's nice to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 44 see the two figures representing different eras, but I'm a little uncomfortable when they seem to be doing something together. You have a little less of that with No. 4 although it was busy. I wasn't actually sure if that was a civil war soldier until it was explained to me on the horse, and I'm -- I'm just not as keen on No. 13. With the reverse, I have a number of comments. My favorite is No. 2. here, the core values. I like the words I like the flag. selectivity of the ribbons. I like the I looked this up online. There are a lot of ribbons, and I think the ones they have selected are very good. I think they cover the major wars. confused a little bit about Abeyance. I'm I think that may be referring to Operation Inherent Resolve. So I would like some discussion of that. On the issue of ribbons, I don't like No. 4 or No. 4A. peacock. Somebody said No. 4 looked like a To me it looked like a turkey. And No. 4A to me looked the so-called feathered war bonnet of the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 45 plains Indians. And I want to be very careful with what I'm going to say here because I do not want to offend anyone at all. service. Dr. Brown, I want to honor your I've said to the group on other occasions my grandfather fought in the Army in World War II and won two major medals. The Army fought valiantly in all of these battles that are represented. I would note that some of them are very hard to figure out what they are, Trenton -- I think, Boston. So the Army has fought very hard in these battles. They fought with great honor. But the political decisions behind some of these campaigns are somewhat problematic to say the least. And I would point out Chapultepec, the campaign in Mexico -- that was a great military victory for the United States, first occupation of a foreign capital, Mexico City. But again, obviously, that has different ramifications for Mexico. this internationally. We are looking at The Indian wars -- again, that www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 46 can be seen as problematical or problematic. I had to look up Laguna de Bay. Philippine history a little bit. I do This is what is now called the U.S. Philippine War, what we used to call the Philippine Insurrection. Again, international context, world history, imperialism. This is the suppression by the eight nations of the Boxer Rebellion. Again, that's problematic. Panama, again, an operation to get rid of Noriega but also conjures up some of the other U.S. interventions in the Caribbean and Central American region earlier than that whether or not you were supportive of that campaign. So again, my point here is not to take issue with these campaigns but just to think a little bit about how they resonate or might resonate with a wider public and even the international arena. No. 8 is fine. It wasn't something that I was really drawn to, but I may give some points to. Like Dennis, I thought No. 6 was -- it sort of gets the job done. My only concern here is that United States Army you have on that, and you have that www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 47 on almost all of the obverses. It's just a little bit of redundancy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN URAM: as well. Okay. Thank you, Dean, Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Mr. Chairman. Thank you, I found this portfolio very interesting, and also kudos to the artists who partook in forming these designs. I have to agree with Donald. interesting. clouds. No. 1 is I'm not sure if Dennis enjoyed the I'm not sure if that's not too much information. So my choice is No. 4. a little more streamlined. I thought it was I did like the Civil War rider on the bottom there. This is actually a larger medal. a two-inch medal. So I don't think it's going to be lost in the palette. was more simple. It's I also liked No. 13 because it The only problem for me was with 13 we don’t U.S. Army anywhere here if we pair it with a reverse with the same. 1. So I'm liking No. 13. I like No. 4 for obverse. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I like Meeting September 22, 2020 48 For the reverse, this was a little challenging also. No. 4A. I appreciate Dean's remarks on I think that was really good, but I think Reverse 2 is a little -- is -- it's quite pretty. I love the streamers. I'm sorry we don’t have Vietnam somewhere on one of those somehow, but otherwise, I think this is quite a lovely piece. like No. 8 for its simplicity. And I do also So I will put a vote for that, too. That's all, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Jeanne. Dr. Peter van Alfen? DR. VAN ALFEN: Peter. well. Thank you. This is I'm really quite drawn to Obverses 4 and 13 as I think that there's, you know, a lot of strength in the design of both of them. I think I have a slight preference for 13 over 4 simply because it's more apparent that the modern soldier seems to be a woman. I think having that kind of gender diversity is, you know, a good www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 49 idea considering the fact that a good deal of our armed forces today or the Army today is comprised of women. The one concern, though, that I have about both of these obverses is just the emphasis on -- on the weapons over the individuals. Again, this is something that's been raised as, you know, a question for the liaison whether if the emphasis on combat -- and here even though if it's said that the soldiers are at the ready, and you can see the trigger finger is not on the trigger. still open. And the flintlock is You know, engaging the enemy -- you know, this might be something, you know, to discuss and consider. In terms of pairings of these various reverses, I do like the simplicity of Reverses 6 and 7. I think they would pair well with either 4 or 13. I have to say my overall preference, actually, is for Obverse 3 and Reverse 1. I think that these are, in fact, rather simple and elegant designs. I also like the fact that there is essentially a physical link between the obverse and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 50 the reverse in terms of a flagpole, you know, that sort of continuity from the obverse to the reverse which also then links the past to the present. Here, again, we have, you know, a soldier of 1775, you know, with a modern soldier who, again, is represented as a woman. So I really quite like that pairing and the linking of the obverse reverse together. So those are my comments. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Peter. As I reviewed these as well and listening to everyone's comments, I'm drawn to Obverse 1, 4 and 13. And for the obvious reasons that have already been stated, when it comes to the reverse, I originally thought 4 and 4A were probable, but in looking at Reverse 2, that's really -- seems to me to be a pretty special way everything is juxtaposed there. It would be nice -- and I don't know if this is a question later on for Joe if we could add another ribbon in there that would have Vietnam. I know that was some of the comments from the Committee and concern. Maybe that's a possibility. If it is, Joe -- I don't want to redesign medals or designs, but www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 51 I do like Reverse 2 as well. Now, moving on, as you know, our liaison Dr. Glenn Williams -- just to bring you back to speed there. Dr. Williams is the Senior Historian at the U.S. Army Center for Military History. know a couple of people had some questions. And I So I'm going to open that up now. Dennis, I'll start with you. I know you had a question for Dr. Williams. MR. TUCKER: Mr. Chair. Yes. Thank you, Dr. Williams, first of all, welcome again, and thank you for your work on this program. appreciate that. We It's always nice to have that kind of direct involvement. My question would be is there a preference for scenes that show either combat or what to a layman or a nonservice member would look like combat versus a scene that shows service members on guard or at the ready? DR. WILLIAMS: be acceptable to us. Well, either one would The first line of the Army's service anthem is "First to Fight". That is the main www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 52 purpose of the service, engaging implies readiness by itself. That's how I would answer that. We would be fine with either one, but I don’t see a distinction between readiness and engaging. MR. TUCKER: appreciate that. Okay. Thank you. I For me that question -- I was asking mostly to help me decide between No. 1, Obverse 1 and Obverse 4. That's helpful. DR. WILLIAMS: MR. TUCKER: Thank you. Sure. And then my second question was if you could speak a bit about some of the slogans that we see on these medal candidates. One in particular is "One Team One Fight". DR. WILLIAMS: That goes through a lot of the history of the Army, particularly, late 20th century, but it is really resonating now with our current force. I'm retired Army myself, and I have relatives and friends that served in some our sister services. And although we have an inter-service rivalry, we usually end up agreeing, well, they all start with U.S. So "One Team One Fight" those www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 53 resonate with the current force. MR. TUCKER: feedback, sir. Thank you for that And thank you for your service. DR. WILLIAMS: It was my honor to serve. CHAIRMAN URAM: questions for Dr. Williams? Okay. Any other Okay -- DR. WILLIAMS: Just one comment on one of the earlier discussions -- one of the participants said, "colonial soldier." colonists on July 4, 1776. Remember we ceased being The Army was established as the continental Army not the colonial Army. So please use continental when you're talking about the regular Army of the Revolutionary War. CHAIRMAN URAM: DR. BROWN: There you go, for sure. Mr. Chair, can I say a word or two? CHAIRMAN URAM: Pardon me. Who was this? DR. BROWN: This is Lawrence Brown. CHAIRMAN URAM: DR. BROWN: Oh, okay, certainly. I just would like to say a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 54 word or two because I do appreciate the comments from any of the members of the CCAC. And one of the things that I would like to really articulate is that service in the military and service in the Army really is without any -- you're not driven really by the political context in which you are providing that service. It's something that you're called to arms. Me, I was drafted. So I didn't join, but the fact of the matter is that at least during the time that I served as much as people may have concerns about the Vietnam conflict, while you were there, there was no doubt in your mind what you were going to do and what you had to do. I think that it's important that the CCAC understands that this medal really celebrates the people who serve. They didn't always make the decision about where they're going to serve. But they made a decision to serve their country. Thank you, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN URAM: Very good -- very good points. Thank you, Dr. Brown. Are there any other www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 55 comments for Joe Menna or for Ron or for April or the design -- any of the design managers? DR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Chair, I'd like to make a couple of comments if I could that were raised earlier. As far as the Army in concerned and how we portray the campaign streamers, the official names of those conflicts is still the Mexican War, the Philippine Insurrection. Rebellion. It's not the Boxer It is the Chinese Relief Expedition. And I would just like to say even with the occupation of Mexico City who did the Mexico government turn to to ask to be their present? Well, it was Brigadier General Winfield Scott, the commander of the U.S. Army. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay, Dr. Williams. Thank you very much, appreciate the information. Once again, your service as well. Any further discussion? Hearing none, we'll score the obverse and reverse candidate designs for the United States Army Silver Medal. Everyone should have an email in your packet from the Mint that should have the scoresheet. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 56 We ask that you please fill that in and either paste or attach it as an email. photograph of it. You may take a Then send the scoring sheets to Mint counsel Greg Weinman. Greg will tally the scores and present the results in a few minutes. With that, Greg, unless you have anything else to add, we'll take a five-minute break while everyone is scoring. MR. WEINMAN: I will jump in if I don’t receive anybody's scores. MR. SCARINCI: mine? Greg, did you receive This is Donald. MR. WEINMAN: Hold on one second. MR. SCARINCI: MR. WEINMAN: in. No, not yet, I emailed it. It is starting to come I have not. The only one I've received so far is Michael Moran, but our system does lag a bit. So give it just a few minutes, and I'll come back online. CHAIRMAN URAM: 12:07. With that, it's 12:06, Let's just say 12:15 we'll reconvene. you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Thank Meeting September 22, 2020 57 (Off the record.) CHAIRMAN URAM: We're back. And at this time, I'd like to recognize Greg Weinman counsel to the CCAC to present the results of the United States Army Silver Medal scoring. MR. WEINMAN: With the scoring complete, all 11 members are voting. Therefore, there's a possibility of 33 points. For the obverses, Obverse 1 received 18; 2 received 5. Obverse 3 received 4 points. Obverse 3A received 4 points. Obverse 5 received 6. 6A received 2. Obverse 4 received 17. Obverse 6 received 2. Obverse 6B received 2. received 2. Obverse 9 received 11. received 4. Obverse 12 received 10. Obverse Obverse 7 Obverse 11 Obverse 12A received 6. And Obverse 13 received 21 making it the top vote getter with more than 50 percent of the points possible. For the reverses, Reverse 1 received 6 points. Reverse 2 received 23 making it the top vote getter. Reverse 3 received 4 points. Reverse 4 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 58 received 10 points. Reverse 4A received 13 points. Reverse 5 received 5 points. points. Reverse 6 received 10 Reverse 7 received 5 points. And Reverse 8 received 15 points. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. WEINMAN: 15? 15. So once again, the top vote getters were Obverse 13 with 21 points and Reverse 2 with 23 points. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. And Reverse 3 received how many points? MR. WEINMAN: Reverse 3 received 4 points. CHAIRMAN URAM: and everyone. Okay. Thank you, Greg, Are there any motions? If there aren't any motions -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I just move to accept these scores. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. MORAN: Tom? CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. MORAN: Moran. Okay. Yes? Tom, this is Mike, Mike I think we need one fix. We need to get U.S. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 59 Army on one side or the other of Reverse 2 or Obverse 13. And I also think we need to consider adding a Vietnam streamer to 13. CHAIRMAN URAM: Joe, would you like to comment on those two moderations? MR. MENNA: addressed to April. That would more properly be We can physically sculpt anything that's there, but any design changes go through April's group. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay, April. Would you like to make any comments regarding Mike's -MS. STAFFORD: We have two items, the inclusion of U.S. Army or United States Army on either Obverse 13 or Reverse 2 which are the recommendations at present, seem to be the recommendations by the Committee. I believe that every other medal in the Armed Forces Silver Medal Series did include the name of the branch. So personally, the program office would concur with that. I presume -- Dr. Williams, are you still on the line? DR. WILLIAMS: I'm here. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 60 MS. STAFFORD: You would agree with that including U.S. Army? DR. WILLIAMS: Absolutely. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. throw it back to you if that's okay. Joe, I'm going to I don’t know if you want to take some time to consider it, but right now we have the choices of Obverse 13 or Reverse 2. wonder if you see if there's a better option between those two designs to add the inscription U.S. Army. MR. MENNA: Other than the ones that already have United States Army on them not really. MS. STAFFORD: No, the two -- the two designs that are -MR. MENNA: I think "This Will Defend" will have to be adjusted to accommodate "U.S. Army". You have to make a choice between motto and branch. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: This is Jeanne. Can I step in for a minute, Joe? MR. MENNA: Sure. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: You know, if I'm looking at the Reverse 2 and we have the streamers, could we not put U.S. Army just above so it would www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I Meeting September 22, 2020 61 match the text of "Loyalty,” “Duty," and so forth, just across the top where we say, "U.S. Army" in that negative area? Would that work? MR. MENNA: idea. I think that's a great You could drop the entire flag and ribbon configuration a little bit, and then you would have the room. You would lose the beginning of United on the bottom, but if you use the Army's emblem, but if you drop it a little bit then you could put United States Army across the top in smaller font. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: you just put U.S. Army? Yes, but could Would that make it a little easier instead of putting the entire United States? MR. MENNA: Certainly. MR. TUCKER: Certainly. This is Dennis. Would there be any objection from the Army abbreviating United States to U.S.? We've tried to avoid -- DR. WILLIAMS: I don’t think we'd have a problem with that. MR. TUCKER: DR. WILLIAMS: I'm sorry, sir? I don’t think we would have a problem with that. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 62 a question. MR. TUCKER: Okay. MS. LANNIN: Hi, this is Mary. I have What if we took Obverse 13, and we replaced this "We’ll Defend" with the "United States Army"? Then it says "Since 1775." DR. KOTLOWSKI: think that's a good idea. I This is Dean Kotlowski. DR. VAN ALFEN: as well. I agree with that. This is Peter. I agree I think it makes more sense linguistically to have U.S. since 1775, and the, perhaps, "This We’ll Defend" will be placed on the reverse where it would fit since presumably it's the flag and these various values that are being defended. CHAIRMAN URAM: good thoughts. Okay. Those are all Would someone like to make a motion regarding those changes? MS. LANNIN: This is Mary Lannin. I would like to make a motion that on Obverse 13 we remove "This We’ll Defend" and replace it with either United States Army or U.S. Army. And on Reverse No. 2, we lower the flag slightly and add "This We’ll Defend" but in larger www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 63 type if you can do it. CHAIRMAN URAM: Jeanne, since you brought up the arrangement there, would you like to second that? MS. STEVENS SOLLMAN: second that. Yes, I will Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: discussion on Obverse 13? Is there any further Go ahead. MS. STAFFORD: I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, would you like to discuss the potential addition of a streamer to recognize the Vietnam effort separately from this motion? CHAIRMAN URAM: Yeah, I think let's do it -- that will be cleaner unless there's some reason not to. That it will make it cleaner, one at a time. DR. KOTLOWSKI: again. Mr. Chairman, it's Dean Do we absolutely need to put in "This Will Defend"? I think it makes a strong point with just "United States Army" and then Reverse 2 as it is. And if you're going to add a streamer on Vietnam, I think this gets implied. Might that make this a little bit too busy if we have "This Will Defend"? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 64 MS. LANNIN: Dean, this is Mary. agree with what you're saying. my motion. I I would like to amend My motion is now we will remove "This Will Defend" from the Obverse No. 13 and eliminate that phrase. And we will leave Reverse No. 2 as it is, but we would like to include a Vietnam streamer. Is that okay? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I second that motion. CHAIRMAN URAM: Wait a minute. We have to have Jeanne agree to this? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: that, yes. I will agree to I second that motion. CHAIRMAN URAM: Then Dr. Williams, just for the record, is that appropriate? DR. WILLIAMS: It's more important to have "U.S. Army" than it is to have our motto. CHAIRMAN URAM: DR. BROWN: Thank you. Mr. Chair, can I speak to the motion? CHAIRMAN URAM: we have a second. We have a motion, and And it includes the Vietnam ribbon www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 65 to the reverse. Is there any further discussion? Seeing none, I'd like to take a motion to -DR. BROWN: Mr. Chair? CHAIRMAN URAM: DR. BROWN: Go ahead. This is Lawrence Brown. I'd like to speak to the motion. fact, enthusiastically embrace it. I would like to, in As someone who's served in Vietnam, I am thankful for my colleagues who, in fact, want to recognize the millions of Americans who served for whom they will find a connection with this medal. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. I was happy that it would be brought up and that we could add that in. So with that, I'm going to do a roll call vote. And Dr. Brown is a yes, right? DR. BROWN: Enthusiastically. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. SCARINCI: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. MORAN: Michael Moran? Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. LANNIN: Donald Scarinci? Mary Lannin? Yes. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 66 CHAIRMAN URAM: MS. SALMON: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. GILL: Robin Salmon? Sam Gill? Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: MR. TUCKER: Dennis Tucker? Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: Dean Kotlowski? DR. KOTLOWSKI: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: Jeanne Stevens-Sollman? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: Peter van Alfen? DR. VAN ALFEN: Yes. CHAIRMAN URAM: Chairman Uram, yes. The motion passes unanimously. I thank everyone for their work today. And Dr. Williams, I think the Army will have an outstanding silver medal and appreciate all the time and effort that you and the design team put in to make this a success. DR. WILLIAMS: My pleasure. CHAIRMAN URAM: If there aren't any further motions and I don’t think there are, I want to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 67 thank the Committee for their work today. And this will conclude our business for today, and we'll go into recess until tomorrow, September 23, 2020 when we will reconvene at 9:00 a.m. This meeting stands in recess until 9:00 a.m., September 23, 2020. have a great day. Everyone Thank you. (Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the proceeding was concluded) www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 68 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, ANDREW ADAMS, the officer before whom the foregoing proceedings were taken, do hereby certify that any witness(es) in the foregoing proceedings, prior to testifying, were duly sworn; that the proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting by a qualified transcriptionist; that said digital audio recording of said proceedings are a true and accurate record to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. ANDREW ADAMS Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting September 22, 2020 69 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER I, CINDY COBB, do hereby certify that this transcript was prepared from the digital audio recording of the foregoing proceeding, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. CINDY COBB www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376