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1 MEETING OF CCAC Members Conducted by Donald Scarinci Tuesday, September 19, 2017 10:05 a.m. Department of the Treasury U.S. Mint 801 9th Street NW Washington, D.C. 20220 Reported by: KeVon Congo 2 A P P E A R A N C E S Donald Scarinci, Committee Member Robert Hoge, Committee Member Mary Lannin, Committee Member Erik Jansen, Committee Member Jeanne Stevens-Sollman, Committee Member Michael Moran, Committee Member Dennis Tucker, Committee Member Thomas Uram, Committee Member Herman Viola, Committee Member Heidi Wastweet, Committee Member Mike Unser, Coin News Jamie Judson, Numismatic News Betty Birdsong, Acting Liaison Greg Weinman, Counsel April Stafford, Chief Office of Design Management Pam Boer, Program Manager Vanessa Franck, Program Manager Megan Sullivan, Program Manager Roger Vasquez, Program Manager 3 Ron Harrigal Phebe Hemphill, Mint Artist Joe Menna, Mint Artist Dave Byers, Park Ranger Lowell National Historical Park Fred Lindstrom, Commission of Fine Arts Paul Scolari, Acting Superintendent American Memorial Park Lauren Gurniewicz, Chief of Interpretation San Antonio Missions National Historical Park Cheri Ford, Deputy Forest Supervisor Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness Charles Pinck, Office of Strategic Services Society 4 CONTENTS SPEAKER Page April Stafford.......................................................9 Dave Byers ......................................................... 10 April Stafford..................................................... 50 April Stafford..................................................... 55 Paul Scolari ....................................................... 56 Paul Scolari ....................................................... 57 April Stafford..................................................... 73 Lauren Gurniewicz ................................................. 77 April Stafford..................................................... 86 Cheri Ford ......................................................... 87 April Stafford.................................................... 106 Charles Pinck ..................................................... 107 5 PROCEEDINGS MR. SCARINCI: -- meeting of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee for Tuesday, September 19th, 2017. And we'll call it in order. Before we begin, I want to introduce the members of the Committee. And please respond "Present" when your name is called for quorum purposes. Bob Hoge? MR. HOGE: Present. MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: Mary Lannin? Present. MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: Erik Jansen? Present. MR. SCARINCI: Jeanne Stevens-Sollman? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. SCARINCI: MR. MORAN: MR. TUCKER: Dennis Tucker? Present. MR. SCARINCI: Tom Uram? Present. MR. SCARINCI: MR. VIOLA: Michael Moran? Present. MR. SCARINCI: MR. URAM: Present. Herman Viola? Present. MR. SCARINCI: Heidi Wastweet? 6 MS. WASTWEET: Present. MR. SCARINCI: And Donald Scarinci. I'll be chairing today's meeting. You know, I'm acting as chairman. The Mint has done the things that it was supposed to do, which is to send the ratification of the chair to the secretary. The secretary hasn't, you know -- hasn't gotten to it yet. So in the interim period, you know, I'll be a senior member of the Committee. So I'll be acting chair for today's meeting, as difficult as that is. I want to also note that it's difficult to fill Mary's shoes doing this. So -- but I'm going to try I also want to note that Kareem Abdul-Jabbar could not be present today, unfortunately. You know, and hopefully he'll be at the next meeting. The CCAC is going to consider several items today. It's an ambitious agenda, and I want to be sure we give enough time for the state quarter did – for the park quarters to really explore them and really analyze them because there's a lot of material here for today. So we're going to first discuss the letter to the secretary and the minutes from our June 21st meeting, then the review of the candidate designs for the America the Beautiful Quarters Program. If we go over -- we'll see how it goes. to push it back. We might do one after the recess if we need So please, don't feel -- I don't want anyone to feel rushed. Review of the candidate designs for the Office of Strategic Services Congressional Gold Medal – I will rush that through. will be rushed. That It's a Congressional Gold Medal, and the recipient has weighed in pretty decisively. So we'll hear about that. The ratification of the 2015 and 2016 CCAC annual reports -- we will be doing that after the recess. Before we begin, you know, I think I see 7 one member of the press present. present or on the phone? MR. UNSER: Is there anyone else from the press Any other member of the press? Mike Unser with Coin News. MR. SCARINCI: MS. JUDSON: MR. SCARINCI: MS. JUDSON: MR. SCARINCI: Mike? Thank you. Jamie Judson (ph), Numismatic News. Hi. How are you? Good. How are you? Good. Anyone else? (No response.) MR. SCARINCI: So Bill's not here alone. Finally, for the record, I want to acknowledge the following Mint staff who are participating in today's public meeting: to the CCAC. Betty Birdsong is here. She's acting liaison Greg Weinman is here, counsel to the CCAC and our north star. (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: April Stafford -- she's the chief of the Office of Design Management -- is here. And program managers from that office -Pam Boer, Vanessa Franck, Megan Sullivan, and Roger Vasquez – are all here with us. So I'd like to begin with the Mint. And are there any other issues that need to be addressed – and Ron Harrigal on the side. I don't know how I missed you, Ron. (Laughter.) I mean … 8 MR. SCARINCI: He's -- Ron is the can-do technical guy who makes things happen that people say are impossible. So I never let him (inaudible) faster when you tell -- when they start to tell us that something's impossible. (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: And the artists on the phone from Philadelphia -- I think we have Phebe. Are you here? MS. Hemphill: Yes, I'm here. MR. SCARINCI: And oh, who else is here? MR. Menna: Joe. MR. SCARINCI: Oh, hi, Joe. So Joe Menna is here, and Phebe Hemphill is here, the two Mint artists from Philadelphia. in on today's meeting as well. what did I miss? No. Good. Okay. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: I think I've got everybody. So is -- Did I miss anything? UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: They'll be listening Okay. No. So the first term – the first item on our agenda is the approval of the minutes from our June 21st public meeting. April emailed everyone the minutes. You all had time to review it. Are there any comments or changes to the minutes you reviewed? (No response.) 9 MR. SCARINCI: So hearing none, we have a motion to approve the minutes. MR. JANSEN: I'll move to … MR. SCARINCI: All right. Erik -- UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. HOGE: Second. Second. MR. SCARINCI: -- is moving it. And Bob Hoge seconded first. All those in favor? ALL: Aye. MR. SCARINCI: Oppose? (No response.) MR. SCARINCI: Okay. So now we turn to April for the chief of the Mint's Office of Design Management to present the portfolio for the 2019 America the Beautiful Quarter Program. April, why don't you begin. A p r i l MS. STAFFORD: Okay. S t a f f o r d Thank you. The America the Beautiful Quarters Program is a multi-year initiative authorized by Public Law 110 456, America's Beautiful National Parks Quarter Dollar Coin Act of 2008. The act directs the minting and issuance of 56 circulating quarter dollars with reverse designs emblematic of a national park or other national site in each state, the District of Columbia, and the U.S. territories. The quarters are issued sequentially each year in the 10 order in which the featured site was first established as a national park or site. The coin's obverse, of course, features the 1932 portrait of George Washington by John Flanagan. And the reverse inscriptions that you'll be considering today include the designation of the site, the host jurisdiction, the year 2019, and E Pluribus Unum. We're going to start with Lowell National Historical Park. Established in 1978, Lowell National Historical Park preserves and interprets the role of Lowell, Massachusetts, in the industrial revolution in America, namely, during the 1820s and 1830s. It was during this time that Lowell rose rapidly as a premier industrial site. Of vital importance to Lowell was the miles of canals and waterways that were dug to provide power to the textile mills. The park archives the history of the human story as it relates to the industry processes and cultural environment of the time. We are fortunate to have with us today in person representatives from Lowell National Historical Park. I'd like to ask our liaison, Dave Byers, Park Ranger at Lowell, to say a few words. D a v e MR. BYERS: Good morning. Historical Park. B y e r s This is Dave Byers from Lowell National I'd like to thank the Committee for inviting us to be a part of this meeting and part of the discussion today. I'd also like to thank Pam and April and the team at the Mint for helping guiding us through the process. process so far. It's been certainly an interesting I look forward to the -- to that continuing. In our discussions at the park, we – in looking at the designs, there are 11 three components we think that really help convey the meaning of Lowell National Historical Park. human element. Perhaps the most importantly is the The park is very much about work and the worker story and, in particular, about the female workforce that provided such an important element of Lowell's story and as part of our national significance. The second component was -- were innovations in technology. We think that came out strongly in several designs in the textile machinery. This is also a signature part of the visit to the park today, to walk through a working weave room and see all the textile machinery running with all the noise and vibration. It gives people a real sense of what the work experience would have been like. And then the last element is the built environment. have been preserved in Lowell. Many of the mills That's something that you can -- you certainly experience as you walk through the city. And that conveys not only our historic story, but a very important role of the park today in the city. And that is the great efforts in preserving so many of those buildings the park is engaged in even today on an almost daily basis. So those three elements -- the human story, the representing work and workers, particularly the female workforce; and then the innovations in technology; and then the preservation of the built environment -- were components that we thought were -- really convey very well the meaning of the park. And so all those come out strongly in the designs. We'd like to thank the designers for providing a great range of designs for us to take a look at and very pleased with the results. And we look forward to this conversation and happy to answer any questions you might have. 12 MR. SCARINCI: Well, one question I know we're going to have right away is what is the preference -- what -- do you have a preference, and what is the preference. MS. STAFFORD: So as always, we start each portfolio -- sorry. As always, we start each portfolio review with the preferences of the liaison. In this case, there are three. (inaudible). They are not in rank or And they include Design 4, Design 16, and Design 17-A. And I'll be highlighting that as we go through the portfolio. Would you like the liaison to speak now or later to why these were the preferences? I think he summed it up pretty well initially. MR. SCARINCI: I think so. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. MR. SCARINCI: I mean, I have one. Is there anything additional that you would like to comment on your three preferences? you on the spot. MR. BYERS: MR. BYERS: It's -- Right. MR. SCARINCI: Yeah. So you can comment later.We'll -- Okay. MR. SCARINCI: I'm not putting Yeah, I'd be happy to. And I'm going to start – you know, I'm going to start with you, Bob, and work this way so that you can anticipate. going to go around the table. the table this way. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. So -- I'm just And the next round we'll go around 13 MR. SCARINCI: So -- and the first thing I'm going to ask are -- is there any technical questions. But before I do that, I would be remiss if I didn't mention that with us today is our colleague from the Commission of Fine Arts, Fred Lindstrom. And that's Fred, and he's been -- you know, he's been wonderful with us, especially involved in the joint programs that we're -- that we've been doing. gotten to connect with the Commission of Fine Arts. We've really It's been wonderful, and he's really been, you know, the person who's been the glue. So it's terrific to have you here, Fred. MR. LINDSTROM: MR. SCARINCI: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. So -- and are there any technical questions with any of the designs? first.MS. STAFFORD: Let's do that Shall I go through the design descriptions first? MR. SCARINCI: You could -- MS. STAFFORD: Okay. MR. SCARINCI: -- if you want. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: How does everyone feel? We went through them. MR. SCARINCI: We went through them. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Okay. Yeah. (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: first. Thank you, April. So let's ask technical questions You could put -- what you could do is put this -- put the -- MS. STAFFORD: Okay. 14 MR. SCARINCI: Thanks. -- big screen on with all the - - just little choices. Okay. MR. TUCKER: MR. SCARINCI: MR. TUCKER: MR. SCARINCI: MR. TUCKER: I'm -Dennis. -- sorry to interrupt. But -- Yes, Dennis. -- I would almost recommend that we do read the descriptions into the record just so that part of the record -- but I don't know if -MR. SCARINCI: That's a good point. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Can't we just move to make it part of the record? MR. SCARINCI: We could. And that's fine. Would you like to hear the descriptions? MR. JANSEN: MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: Well -It's okay. -- I would prefer to hear them. MR. SCARINCI: You'd like to hear -- okay. Let's do the descriptions. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. Okay. So we'll start with Design 1. This design depicts a mid-19th century mill girl standing in front of a power loom. Behind her is the mill clock, representing the regimented workday. Design 1-A also shows a mill girl in front of a power loom. The inscription "Spindle City," a common nickname for textile towns, 15 is at the top of the design. Design 2 features the Boott Cotton Mills complex. The clock tower is seen in the background governing the workday. The inscription "American Industry" is at the bottom of the design. Design 3 depicts three critical components of Lowell's manufacturing environment -- waterpower, represented by the Moody Street Feeder Gatehouse; a structured workforce, represented by the clock face; and the ability to mass produce goods, depicted by the large-scale factory buildings. The inscription "American Industry" is also included. Design 4, one of three preferred designs from our liaison, features a mill girl tending her thrussel (ph) spinning machine. The inscription "City of Spindles" is included across the top, though the liaison, if this were to move forward as a recommendation by this Committee, would like you to consider removing the inscription "City of Spindles" because, rather than specifically applying to Lowell,it can apply to numerous textile towns around the country. Design 5 illustrates the elements of the textile process from farm to factory. The inscription "American Industry" is at the top of the design. 6 showcases the simple items that define the textile process from raw cotton to the bobbin and shuttle. The inscription "American Industry" is included. Design 7 depicts a mill girl placing a threaded bobbin into a weaving loom shuttle. Design 8 features a mill girl placing a threaded bobbin into a weaving loom shuttle as she proceeds to set the loom in motion. Designs 10, 11, and 12 depict a mill girl spinning thread that is stylized to look like water, communicating the importance of the canal system empowering the mills of Lowell. A water wheel is in the background. So this is Design 10, 16 11, and 12. Design 13 features one of the mill girls working at her machine. The phrase "American Industry" is incused into the thread. Design 14 depicts a mill girl's hands holding a group of bobbins, representing the work done within the mills. The city motto "Art is the Handmaid ofHuman Good" is inscribed at the bottom to represent the importance and benefits of industry and innovation. (Background noise.) MS. STAFFORD: I can take a moment to ask those who are participating on the phone to mute. (Background noise.) MS. STAFFORD: We're getting some feedback. If you could please mute your phones. (Background noise.) MR. SCARINCI: We're listening to your conversation. So if you want us to participate in it, we will. (Laughter.) MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Design 15 depicts mill girls working at power looms with the circular bobbin battery machine prominent in the foreground. Design 16 also depicts the mill girl working at a power loom. A view of Lowell, including the Boott mill clock tower, is seen through the window. This is a second of the three preferred designs by the liaison. Designs 17 and 17-A depict mill girls working with warping threads in the Boott Cotton Mills factory. This is 17 and 17- 17 A. 17-A includes the familiar clock -- a clock tower through the window, and it is the third of three preferred designs by our liaison. MR. SCARINCI: Thank you. So Bob, the pressure will be on you to start. And rather than to go through a calling process, I think it's more time efficient if each one of you, at either the beginning of your remarks or at the end of your remarks, just let us know what your preference is, as you usually do anyway. And also, there's no need to talk about each and every design. passionately about. Talk about the ones that you feel You know, and if there's something that you find to be particularly something you'd not like to see back -- to come back to us in the future, feel free to say that. But let's focus our time on the images that you feel are of the ones you'd like to see. So let's start with you, Bob. MR. HOGE: Thank you, Donald. I agree whole-heartedly with the liaison's selection of Design number 4 as being a preference. And I agree with her suggestion of removing the "City of Spindles" terminology as well. These, I think, are really beautiful designs. I think, as a suite, these are probably the strongest of all of the images of the quarters we're going to be looking at today. Although all the others are attractive, I think some of the others have problems -- too many combined elements, too much fine detail. Number 12, for instance, you have a peculiarity of showing a waterwheel as a halo behind the girl's head. strangely. That would probably come across kind of I don't think that the use of thread as water is really very effective on some of these pieces, either. It's a nice idea to try to combine all the elements of the beginnings of the industry, but 18 I think we have to be very careful about this. The idea of putting in "American Industry" as terminology, along with a number of extraneous objects, I think is really out of line, too. 5, number 6, so on, it does come across well. For instance, in number In number 13, you see "American Industry" that's shown on the textile weave and so on. I think that would conclude my remarks on this discussion. MR. SCARINCI: Thank you. Dennis? MR. TUCKER: Thank you. When I looked at this portfolio, I was guided by a couple different thoughts. I discounted those designs that don't feature the mill girls because their specialized labor was an important transition from the artisanal handwork of the past to the full automation of today. And among those designs that feature the mill girls, I prefer the -- I prefer those that give an expansive view of their work in the mills. It's showing more of the textile machinery rather than less and rather than losing focus on individual elements. So my preference was number 8. I think this has a good combination of the human and machine aspects of Lowell's textile industries. In addition, the mill girl isn't just pressing levers, but she had -- she's interacting with a machine in a very intimate and, literally, hands-on way. It's a good depiction of the transition from the cottage industry to mass production. And I would kind of foresee some criticism of this design in that it's very finely detailed. But I would also mention that we've seen fine-detailed work in some recent America the Beautiful quarters. The Frederick Douglass 19 coin and the Ellis Island coin have a lot of architectural detail even on that small canvas that I think translates well. And it would be – of course, it would be up to the engraver to make that work, but I think that it can be done. The designs that kind of explode the machinery and show individual elements like the spindle and the bobbin, I understand what the artists are doing there But to use an analogy, I think if we showed it – the average American today a 19th century steam engine locomotive, they would know that this is a train. But if we just showed them an unattached piston or some other element of the machinery that's disembodied, they would be mystified. And I think that's something that we -- that's a challenge on the base just showing the parts of the machinery. So my preference again is for number 8. MR. SCARINCI: Thank you. Jeanne. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you.I agree with our liaison with his – their selection of 4 and also 16 and 17-A. I disagree -- I'm sorry, Dennis -- with your choice of number 8 because, for me -- and it looks more like when we get down to quarter-size issues, husking corn, so I think we're going to lose the very thing that we want to show in the coin. And therefore, I'm really in favor of 16 and 17-A, mainly because we have the powerful spinning wheel there and the woman working it. And I like very much, even though we have negative space being used up by the architecture, I think that that's going to maybe strike out very well. It's detailed, but we have negative space around the weaver, and the same bodes true on 17-A. We have some negative space, but we do have an architecture element. And in Lowell, 20 in these mill towns, I think it's so important to describe that architecture. I did come from a mill town area, and so I know how important it is to that community. Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: MR. VIOLA: Excellent. Herman. Thank you. Like my colleagues, I think the designs are really quite attractive and, overall, quite good. I love the quarters with the expression "Art is the Handmaid of Human Good," but that's not going to work on the coin. So I would just say I support the liaison's choices. they react. I think any one of those would be good. Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: MR. MORAN: And I'll just wait for my colleagues and see how Michael? Yes. little bit on this Am I on? There we go. I'm going to disagree a (inaudible). I'm kind of halfway there and halfway not in terms of the selections. As a civil engineer, I'm drawn by one of the other things that Lowell -- the reason Lowell existed, and that was waterpower. That's what drove these mills. result, I really do like -- I'm drawn to number 11. And as a I understand that -- I think the wheel behind the woman is very, very distracting. But I think when you put it to its side, you know, the symbology (sic) of the water going through there, I like it. the quarter. And I think it will work on And I might be in the minority on that. A lot of these coins I really am concerned as whether they coin up and be recognizable to the man on the street. doing it that way. I'm concerned with number 4 Number 17 is entirely too busy in terms of the elements in the background for a quarter. I do like -- and my number 21 two choice in the beginning was number 16, the -- Mark's (ph) choice. And I think that's a good one. With the symbology over on the right- hand side, you basically have a bifurcated design there with the woman on the left. And I like it. I think it works, and I'll be voting for it. MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: Thank you. Erik. This set is difficult. When I first take these in, I try to look them over, give myself some time, look them over again. usually find that a couple issues surface. derive to a decision. And I And from there, I can And this collection has defied that process, in my view. We need to choose symbols, and there's a lot of symbology here. But the symbols come at us so fast and so crowded and so busy as to almost lose their impact. And so I discounted 5 and 6 on that basis. There's just too much there. The prior comment that, on a quarter, these -- some of these symbols -- in particular, her hand loading the piece -- is going to look like an ear of corn. And so I'm sensitive to that comment, and so I really question that. I'm starved for effective negative space here, knowing that the proofed version of this is just going to wipe out the detail. So I'm troubled. I wanted to at one point to look at Design 14 just because it's so simple. But it misses the point that I think we need to preserve here. ]I think we need to have the female image profile presence here because it's such an important piece of this. When I look at 17 and 17-A, I'm troubled that it's less than a half (ph) profile, which to me is kind of a loss of opportunity because the face, even though it's small on a quarter, is such an important piece of what imparts the emotion of the design. 22 So I discount 17 and 17-A on that basis. And based on what I've just gone through, I almost default down to 16. And then I put it on the palette of a quarter, and suddenly all I see is this big circular monster. And so I then am drawn to a design that hasn't been mentioned here, which is 15, where because it goes off and bleeds to the edge of the active design of the coin, I actually think 15 is a better choice if you like 16 because it has more negative space. Your eye will be drawn to the profile. Granted, the background woman, mill girl, is going to be a bit confusing to the visual appearance of the profile of the worker in the foreground. But I think 15 might be a cleaner choice than 16 if you're leaning that way. I just think it'll come out better in proof, and I don't think the contribution of the mill in the window in the background of 16 is anything but a distraction, quite frankly. So this is a difficult set. reasons on described. I ended up on 15 for the If there is a fallback, it is a utilitarian default to Design number 4 because it has some negative space. But once again, I think that becomes a challenge to the engraver to give us some visual cue that the human piece of this otherwise industrial machine-dominated design is really where we want the attention. And that's a challenge to the engraver. Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: Okay. Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you. First, I want to talk about the Design number 4. When I look at this design, some words come to mind -- adequate; informative; very 23 literal; and as Erik said, utilitarian. want for coin design? But is this the bar that we I think we can do more. This is something that I would expect to see as an illustration in a brochure. This is not what an artist considers design, and it's very one-dimensional. When I looked at this packet, there was one design that rose far to the top for me, and that was Design 11. This is what we've been asking for in the seven years that I've been here. This is symbolic. It's beautiful. It is still It has artistic composition. It has flow. informative, and it represents all the things that the liaison has said is important to them -- the human element, the female element, the worker, the technology, the natural environment of the water, and how the water is turned into their livelihood. This hits all the marks in a beautiful and artistic way. That's why this design rose to the top for me. That concludes my comments. MR. SCARINCI: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Heidi. Tom? MR. URAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The -- as far as the preferences go in regards to the design, I was leaning towards 16 as well. thought is, is that 17-A -- and I agree. But my I think 16, you're just going to see the large, round machine on such a small diameter. like 17-A. I I wish the clock had been in the back instead of the clock tower, but I thought that would have been nice had we been able to do that. But as it relates to the uniqueness, I think that a couple of my colleagues here hit on it. And that is number 11 and number 10. I actually like 10 even a little bit better than 11 because it even emphasizes more the importance of the water. And I think that with 24 that in the background, depending how it would be done, I think it could really have a very nice image. So I'm going to give my considerations to both 10, 11, and 17-A in the spirit of the preferences of Lowell. But I really think 10 and 11 for the reasons already stated really will -- I mean, the striking of this, you're going to really see what the image is about and not just a machine. So I think it would be a great preference. And I'd like to hear a little bit more on why 11 versus 10 when we get to that discussion. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: Mary. Okay. I completely agree with Heidi. I love number 11. I prefer that over 10 because, in 10, the wheel is -- you know, it's kind of there, but you're not really sure what it is or what it's for. In 11, you actually see the action of the wheel turning because of the water. And so that to me was very important. She's looking proud. She's looking up. She's -- she -- this is her livelihood. And I love the way that the water turns in to the threads of the spindle. I agree with Erik about what he said about 15 versus 16. It's much more interesting to me to have that wheel slightly off the palette. I don't know if the woman in back is a little distracting or not, but I definitely -- my heart is with number 11. Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mary. I -- first of all, I kind of thought -- I -- and Heidi and Mary and Tom, you know, said it really well. I think number 11 is clearly the nicest, and we will have discussion between 11 and 10 because they're so similar and 25 we wouldn't want the (inaudible) to be diluted. But what's nice about 11 is it gives us everything we've been asking for. it's the artists listening to us. It gives us -- And so you have negative space in number 11 to some degree, number one. Number two, you have something that will look good on the size of a quarter. Number three, you have the main elements, especially after having listened to the liaisons, who, you know, specifically identified three things – the human element, innovations in technology, and preservation of equipment and buildings. And number 11 has all of that. individual, which is very important. It focuses on the It has negative space. And I like this hint of abstraction by depicting, you know, the string as water. You know, I think that, you know, gives you -- gives it some more 21st century elements and allows the mind to move, as opposed to putting it right there as a photograph, you know, that depicts something. So it's the kind of thing we've been asking for. In general remarks for the artists, to the extent we've been talking and talking and talking about storyboards, I just want to, you know, let everyone know, especially the artists who are listening, what is a storyboard, okay? Number 2 is a minor storyboard, but number 3, that's a storyboard. Number 5, that's a storyboard. Number 6, that's a storyboard, all right? So if there were designs I think that we never want to see, those are the designs we never want to see. And if you notice, no one mentioned any of those designs in their comments. So number one, you know, number 2 Dennis, you know, made an excellent point in his remarks about the detail. And you know, the -- on a small palette like a quarter, you will get lost in the detail. Now, 26 if you were talking about a half dollar, you can get away with it a little more. But in a quarter, too much detail is not a good thing. So we always caution about, you know, about a busy design. And otherwise, you know, if the design itself focuses on a detail and the detail itself is the design -- and you see that in a couple of items. You see that in 7. You see that in 14. detail is the design. You see that in 13 where the That is what we want to see. And we talk about -- and we always talk about we want to see a focus on a detail because in a small palette, if you focus on a single detail, leave negative space, you almost always get an attractive design. So that's something we want to see. The point that Dennis made, which was very valid, is that when you're talking about, you know, a 19th century piece of equipment, or something that is not easily recognizable, you know, detail like 7, which I, you know, would otherwise have liked, a detail like 7, I don't know what that is. You know, our 21st century mind can't tell what some of these things are by just looking at the detail. But if you see the whole thing like you see in 4, yeah, okay, yeah, we get what that is, all right, even though that kind of detail on a small palette is too much, you know. the point. But in any event, that's The point is we do want to see detail. So for the artists listening to this, detail is good. We like it. Blow it up. that the coin. Make that the design. Negative space is good. that. Make We like We want to see that. And the only reason we're ruling out detail in this case is because the mind might not recognize the detail if we go with a -- something as obscure to most of us (inaudible). So in any event, those are my comments. And I think now why don't we 27 have a discussion a little bit about -- because we've heard a couple of people, you know, be a little torn between number 10 and number 11. So I'd like to open it up for anyone who wants to talk about the differences between 10 or 11 and why one might be a preference. You know, my preference would be for 11. You know, I think, although it's contrary -- again, it's contrary to what you normally hear me say because what you would normally hear me say because I'm always a sucker for the circle within a circle, so what you might normally hear me say is, like, 10 is great because of the circle within the circle. But you know, I do like the negative space in 11, and I do like the way the water weaves into the wheel, you know. it kind of gives you that double image. So my preference would be 11, and that's why. Anyone else have comments? MR. MORAN: I mean, I kind of -- Let's start with Mike. Donald, I would suggest for the preliminary voting we combine 10 and 11. And then if we get to vote that we think we will get on that, we'll discuss it. MR. SCARINCI: MR. MORAN: Yes. MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: So in other words, treat 10 and 11 as the same? That's a good way to handle it. Erik? And I might add 12 as well, which kind of brings up a procedural issue. Several meetings ago, we addressed this idea of grouping similar designs, which is always kind of a sculpt (ph) where you draw the line on the -- but this is a prime example where, in this case, Design 11 plus or minus 10 or 12 was highlighted in the comments, I think, in an escalating fashion. So I don't want to say 28 the train's leaving the station there, but I think the point is made that Heidi started some real attention on those designs, and then Mike added to that. MR. JANSEN: (Laughter.) And so I don't know how you want to handle that both now and going forward. But one could argue that 17 and 17-A should have been maybe a singular entity in the voting, perhaps 1 and 1-A a singular entity on the voting and so forth. So I don't know how we do that, but point made, remade, and maybe remade again here. The only thing I would add artistically here - - on 10, 11, and 12, although we're primarily focused on a circulating design here, the proofed version of 10, 11, or 12, the water come thread will be a fascinating punctuation to the proofing at this point. I would assume that the proofing would polish the internal portions of the water, and I think that would punctuate the otherwise nicely blobbed up from frosting of her torso and the rest of the design. So I think the proofed version of this could be a really, really nice effect. Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: MR. URAM: Thank you. Tom. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I -- the reason why I lean towards 10 versus 11 -- I think I figured it out -- is that on 11 if we - - the layering of the waterwheel over her emphasized the waterwheel a little bit more, and that's okay. I go either way. But I thought the waterwheel – that she was the most important and the layered on top versus that. I think that's where I was getting at. But either design would be fine, 10 or 11. But that was, I think, my 29 reason for going more towards 10. I'm not a big fan of 12, Erik, for the simple fact that I don't like the halo. She looks like that that could be a -UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. URAM: Yeah, yeah. (inaudible – off mic). And also, the books -- and there's just -- it's not emphasizing -- I think the waterwheel's important. So that draws me back to 10 and 11. MR. SCARINCI: And Heidi? MS. WASTWEET: I agree with you, Donald. The negative space on 11 I think is the most attractive. And the placement of the wheel makes the most sense mechanically to tell the story of the water turning into the thread. And 10, it becomes a little busy because there are a lot of elements and layered upon each other. I do want to make one comment about your earlier statement about the storyboard. I think a storyboard as the -- is a process in the filmmaking industry where you're laying out a scene in a movie context where it's very literal, people doing stuff. And the things that you pointed out, I call those a collage, just a point of difference in definition. MR. SCARINCI: We have -- on this Committee, we've been using the term "storyboard," and that has been confusing to the artists because they're not -- what we refer to as storyboards is not what the artists think of as storyboards. And that could have been confusing. came out at the workshop that we did with the artists. This And I think the correct term – what we refer to as storyboard, the correct term is "collage." So what we really don't want to see is collage. And you're 30 absolutely right. And should from this point forward not refer to them as storyboards because it's confusing. vocabulary in this Committee. It's our own little But -- MS. WASTWEET: Well, there are storyboards here. MR. SCARINCI: -- going forward -- MS. WASTWEET: But -- MR. SCARINCI: Going forward, let's refer to it as -- for scenes like this -MS. WASTWEET: For the -- like you called out -- MR. SCARINCI: That's -- MS. WASTWEET: -- those are collages, yeah. MR. SCARINCI: That's collage. MS. WASTWEET: And some of these other designs are very illustrative. We don't like collage. And those I would categorize as storyboard because they depict a person as you would see in a movie doing a thing very literally and -whereas what we aspire to is design rather than illustration or storyboard or collage. (Crosstalk.) MR. VIOLA: Last comment -- I think the buckets are in the wrong direction, given the current of the water. MR. SCARINCI: Well, we'll get to that if we vote in this direction because we're going to talk again. Mary. It's a minor point. 31 MS. LANNIN: Just a little comment, loving ancient Greek and Roman coins as I do, there are many goddesses and women in ancient history. And to me, the waterwheel doesn't distract, even though it's on her shoulder. That's like an attribute of a goddess just like the spindle is an attribute and just like the water is. So I don't mind it there. I like -- that's why I like 11 better than I like 10. MR. SCARINCI: Okay. We're going to get to that. So to deal with this, this issue of multiple designs of the same thing, there are three instances -MR. WEINMAN: MR. SCARINCI: MR. WEINMAN: Should be four, I think. Are there four instances? I think 16 -- 15 and 16 there's some tracing design as well. MR. SCARINCI: Okay. So there are -- UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Where there's -- wherever there's a letter. MR. SCARINCI: There are four instances of the same design. And maybe going forward what we can do when we have the same designs we can do it as an A, B, C, you know, and then make that an option on our score machine, you know, the A, B, C, so that could be the first vote. And that will consolidate the votes for any particular design. For purposes of right now, the way we'll handle this, if you pick your scoring sheet, for those who like 1 or 1-A -- and I didn't hear anyone 32 comment (ph) -- but for those who do, vote for 1 -- 01. For those who like 10 -- for those who like -UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: 12 through -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: 10, 11, and 12. MR. SCARINCI: -- 10, 11, and 12, we should vote for 10, okay? MS. STAFFORD: Basically, I think what -- excuse me -- I'm sorry. MR. SCARINCI: Go ahead. MS. STAFFORD: Sorry to interject. MR. SCARINCI: Please. MS. STAFFORD: I would suggest that for the ones that are obviously combined, they're versions of each other, we'll just total the score for that range. MR. SCARINCI: Oh, okay. MS. STAFFORD: So 1 and 1-A, we would total them and give you the score. MR. WEINMAN: I'm not sure if that's actually -- MS. STAFFORD: And they would apply to the -- MR. SCARINCI: Yeah. MR. WEINMAN: I'm not sure that works. MR. SCARINCI: That won't work, no. MR. WEINMAN: -- because that'll -- MR. SCARINCI: It'll hotspot it. That doesn't work -- 33 MR. WEINMAN: That'll amplify Design 3 as opposed to 2. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. WEINMAN: MS. STAFFORD: MR. WEINMAN: Yeah. So you don't want -Okay. My -- this is -- I think this is the better approach. MS. STAFFORD: I apologize. MR. WEINMAN: Just -- right. Just if you like 10, 11, or 12, just vote for 10. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: And then -- MR. WEINMAN: And we'll -- Just vote for 10. MR. SCARINCI: Then the next we can do -- MS. WASTWEET: And maybe put a checkmark next to the version that you prefer. MR. WEINMAN: That's more difficult. I -- MR. SCARINCI: Let's get back to it. MS. WASTWEET: Okay. MR. SCARINCI: You know, and then we'll – and then we're -- if one of these multiple designs wins, which probably it will, we'll go back and discuss the three and then -MR. WEINMAN: Right. 34 MR. SCARINCI: -- which of the three and then vote again on which of the three you like. Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. SCARINCI: MR. WEINMAN: MR. SCARINCI: Can I -- Then hold that thought. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. SCARINCI: Oh, no, this isn't on the procedure. Okay. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. SCARINCI: Procedure? Thank you. On number 15, we have the same instance. Vote for 15 if you like 16. If you like 16, 15 and 16 are versions of that. vote for 15. And on 17, you see it again. So If you like 17 or 17-A, vote for 17. So finally, the four changes are if you like 1 or 1-A, you're going to vote for 1. to vote for 10. If you like 10, 11, or 12, you're going If you like 15 or 16, you're going to vote for 15. And if you like 17 or 17-A, you're going to vote for 17. So are there any final comments? Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yeah, but it's not about procedure. Can I still speak? MR. SCARINCI: Sure. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Okay. I do like 10 and 11. I think the artist is -- they are listening to us when we are asking for something contemporary. The only thing that really concerns me about these choices is that I think this -- the water and the thread gets very confusing. I think when we have it down on a small scale, it's going 35 to be even more confusing. What I am disappointed in is that we don't really, in my opinion, have what Lowell is about, and that's about the industry in the city. So I'm still going back to 16 and 17 and 17-A. Those, even though they are going to be storyboarding -- it's what we've always said we don't want -- and yet in this instance, I think if we are careful maybe we can eliminate one of the girls in 17, 17-A. But I think that that is giving us the industry, the girls, and the city. And this is what's important. national park is about. That's all. I think this is what that Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: Any other last comments before we vote? MS. WASTWEET: A reminder, it's a 1-to-3 vote. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Oh -- Her reminder, it's a 1-to-3 vote. MR. SCARINCI: Right. (Crosstalk.) MR. SCARINCI: So the way we vote is you can vote for as many designs as you want. You place – you either -- you can -- or you can vote for one design. You give it a 1, 2, or a 3. And that's how you would vote on the designs you want to vote for. MR. WEINMAN: And just to clarify, also, in the merit box, you can use it if you don't necessarily like the design. You can check the merit box because we'll use that when we evaluate the artists when it comes to -- the contract artists when it comes time for contract (inaudible). MR. SCARINCI: Right. And Bob, you get the last word. 36 MR. HOGE: Okay. Fundamental observation here -- I think that the designs of number 10, 11, and 12 are really quite beautiful; however, I don't think they convey what Lowell is all about. I think the disembodied waterwheel does not convey mill, and it doesn't convey industry. In fact, it's not really even recognizable. It does look like a halo on number 12. The water could just as well be interpreted as flames, fire, or smoke, certainly not as thread. Thread is so fine you wouldn't see it on a coin the size of a quarter. This looks like it's a girl who's handling smoke with a strange-looking cob incorporated into the design. Now, these are beautiful. it say? But what does It's really not showing something as a history of an industrial city. That's it. MR. SCARINCI: Thank you. Okay. sheet to the right of you. Let's vote and then hand your scoring And we'll give them over to Greg, who will, as we begin the next round, will tally these. And then we'll come back and talk about whatever we need to talk about. I don't think I have everybody's. Who's -- (Crosstalk.) MR. SCARINCI: Okay. There you go. Thank you very much. April, let's get started on the next design. MS. STAFFORD: Yes, sir. American Memorial Park in the Northern Mariana Islands honors the thousands of American and indigenous Chamorros and Carolinians of the Northern Mariana Islands who gave their lives during the Marianas campaign of World War II. It serves 37 as a living legacy and honors the sacrifices made during the campaign at three distinct locations within the park -- the Memorial Court of Honor and Flag Circle, the Marianas Memorial dedicated to the indigenous people who perished, and the Carillon Bell Tower. Our liaison to American Memorial Park, Acting Superintendent Paul Scolari, should be with us on the phone. Mr. Scolari, are you there? (No response.) MR. SCARINCI: Maybe he has his mute button on. MS. STAFFORD: Mr. Scolari, did you – were you able to join us? MR. SCARINCI: Check your mute button. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Well, I will tell you, in working with Mr. Scolari, he identified one preference. That is Design 1, seen here. And I'll go ahead and launch into the design descriptions. I'll call one more time for Mr. Scolari if you've joined us. Okay. We'll contact him – MR. SCOLARI: MS. STAFFORD: Yeah, I am -- I'm here. Oh, great. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Mr. Scolari. We're about to introduce the designs where you've shown your preference of Design 1. Would you like to say a few words about the site? MR. SCOLARI: MR. SCARINCI: (Laughter.) Sure. So good morning to you, the Committee, and … You must be in the Mariana Islands right now, yes. 38 MR. SCOLARI: I am, yeah. And I'm not pressing mute. Can you hear me at this point? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: ALL: Yes. Yes. MR. SCOLARI: MR. JANSEN: Okay. You're popping in and out. MR. SCOLARI: So I'll start over. Washington, D.C. Good morning to all of you in I'm on the island of Guam in the Mariana Islands. And it's about in the morning here, and it's Wednesday. So we're 1:00 quite distant in time. But in terms of American Memorial Park, it is -- it's a national park located in the Commonwealth of Northern Mariana Islands. And it's on the island of Saipan. And the way to think of it, I think, is as it's a -- it's an urban park. think of just an urban city park, it's very much like that. comprised of manicured grounds. So if you It's It's about 130 acres in size. And as its name indicates, it's a memorial park. So it was created in 1978 at the same time that the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands was created. In fact, the establishing legislation for the park was coincident with the establishment of the Commonwealth. And it's a park that -- it's a commemorative park. And so as April indicated, the focal point -- the main focal point of the park are memorials, and the memorials are surrounded by parklands that are manicured lawns, pathways. And it's a place where, in addition to being a memorial landscape, it is a recreational landscape for the people of the island of Saipan. And it's a place where it's coastal. People go to the 39 beach there. They have picnics there. They play tennis there. There are tennis courts. And so it's very much a living park, a part of the community, as well as a commemorative park, which harkens back to the memory of those who served and died in taking the island of Saipan back from the Japanese during World War II. The main commemorative focal point of the park is the Court of Honor, which is prominently featured on many of the coin designs. And the Court of Honor is a memorial that includes the inscriptions of the names of all the servicemen who gave their lives in the battle for Saipan. And so I think I'll just leave it at that. Again, thank you. If you have any questions I'd be able -- I'm happy to answer those. And I'm happy to proceed with the process. MR. SCARINCI: Can I ask a question? You just said featured on many coin designs. And I don't remember. I -- UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: In this portfolio. Oh, in this portfolio, right, because I know that Mariana Islands issues postage stamps, but I wasn't aware of coin designs. All right. MS. STAFFORD: Mr. Scolari, when you referenced that, you were talking about within this portfolio that we're considering today, correct? MR. SCOLARI: MR. SCARINCI: That's right. Yes. And -- you know, and let me ask you one other question. Has there been any discussion about doing a joint philatelic, numismatic product with the design? 40 MR. SCOLARI: MR. SCARINCI: Is that a question directed at me? A question directed at you if you know. I don't know if you know. MR. SCOLARI: I'm not aware of that, no. MR. SCARINCI: Okay. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Let's go through them. MS. STAFFORD: So we'll start with Design 1, which as mentioned is the preference of our liaison. Design 1 features a Chamorro boy saluting the American flag while on the shoulder of a soldier at the Memorial Court of Honor and Flag Circle. Design 2 depicts the Memorial Court of Honor and Flag Circle. Design 3 depicts part of a floral wreath honoring those who lost their lives in battle. The date June 15th, 1944, marks the day American forces arrived on Saipan. Design 4 is an abstract depiction of the Memorial Court of Honor and Flag Circle viewed from above. The stars represent the American flag as well as the flags of the military branches that took part in the Marianas campaign. Designs 5, 5-A, 6, and 6-A all feature representations of the flags from the flag circle paired with plumeria, the official flower of the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands. of the branches are inscribed on the flag. The names This is 5, 5-A, 6, and 6- A. Design 7 portrays a perspective of the Court \of Honor and Flag Circle from the steps that lead to the base of the memorial. Design 8, which is a second design identified as strong by our liaison, showcases the Court of Honor and Flag Circle from an elevation or eyelevel view when one is standing in the landing of the base of the memorial. And that concludes the designs. 41 MR. SCARINCI: Thank you. So I guess we're going to start with this side of the room in our discussion. I guess that's me first. This was, of all the groups, you know, probably my least favorite group of coins. I'm saying it that way because I'm chairing the meeting today. (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: So I have to be nice. You know, I think -- I guess I generally -- you know, I don't like pictures on coins. And you know, I appreciate, you know, that, you know, constituent groups always liked pictures on coins. But that's really not the direction, you know, that we'd like the artists to go or think of. So when you look at, you know, the next thing we like, which is detail on coins and bringing out -- using detail to convey a message and to convey an emotion, you have several coins in this group that do have details. You know, I think -- you know, I think number 3, number 4, number 5, number 6, you know, and its variations have details, you know. So I think I -- you know, I would like to go in that direction. And if we go in that direction, the one that I think is the most -- probably the most meaningful or that conveys the most and, you know, overall, most aesthetically pleasing of the designs would be 6 or 6-A. So you know, without getting into the preferences over 6 or 6-A -- we'll probably group them for the vote -- you know, but I would like, you know, one of those as opposed to one of the pictures on coins. Mary. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Donald. I also like number 3. The delicacy of the flowers kind of runs up against a really tragic day, but it's the 42 reason the park was created. design on a coin. I think that that would be a beautiful I think -- I hope that it would strike well. But I -- my preference would be for 3, followed shortly by either 6 or 6-A. I tend to want to see if we use 6. I do like the fact that the branches of the service follow the wave of the flag on those. And so that's what would be important to me on this. So my vote would be for either number 3 or number 6. Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: MR. URAM: Okay. Tom. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I concur. I do like 6 or 6-A. But I also like the fact that 8 has the actual notation of the Court of Honor and Flag Circle, even though it does look like a stamp, which it does, but I mean, it -- easy to decide what it is for the -- for this particular memorial park. In -- with a lot of these designs, I agree with the chairman that these designs were very difficult to really pinpoint. But then again, the subject matter was as well. So I'm going to lean towards number 6 and number 8. Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: I'd first like to look at Design number 1. this is a lovely drawing, and I can see the appeal of it. I think The problem I have is the size of the coin is not appropriate for the design. A quarter is very small -- not only small, but it's also very shallow. I think this design would be better on a larger coin or a medal. Design number 3 I think, on the other hand, would look very beautiful when sized down to a quarter. It would read very, very well. It's very attractive. The date doesn't necessarily inspire anything for me. 43 I just like the simplicity of the wreath and the detail, and I think that conveys some emotion. I like that. 6 and 6-A, I don't feel it has enough negative field space. It feels a little crowded, but I could be convinced. Design 7, I like the perspective of the flags. I think that's interesting. It makes it more dynamic. I think that the lettering at the bottom, "The Court of Honor and Flag Circle," either have those letters there and take off the brick (ph) behind them, or vice versa. We don't need both, considering the shallowness of and size of the quarter. I was attracted to Design number 8, even though it's rather unimaginative. It still is attractive in its symmetry to me. MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: just said. Thank you. Erik. I don't think I have a lot to add on top of what Heidi I think Design 6 is a lovely graphical representation. I think it's a bit of an engraving challenge here to translate all of those grayscales into defined flags as opposed to just kind of otherwise flat, really, spaces. So I think 6 is a bit of a challenge to engrave. Otherwise, I think there are a handful two or three nice utilitarian choices here. MR. SCARINCI: MR. MORAN: Michael. I'm probably going to echo everybody in the Committee. This was a tough one to do. There wasn't a lot of material. to stay focused on the whole point of it. wandered. I want to see. I like number 3. You had And as a result, I I got sucked in by the 44 design, the symmetry. And nobody else does, and I get it. prolong that one. I'm sorry -- number -MR. MORAN: -- number 4. So I won't (Crosstalk.) Number 4. I'm troubled by number 3. And I - - it's a great design, but I don't think it exactly captures the Court of Honor. And to me, that's a bit of a problem. And I'll give it some votes. I disagree with the Committee on 6 and 6-A. going to coin. I don't think it's It just -- I just don't see it on a quarter. seen too many others that just don't work. 7 and 8 are okay. not as imaginative, as creative as I would like. Court of Honor. I've They're But again, it's the How many different ways can you do a Court of Honor? So, oh, we're going to flip a coin when it comes time to vote. MR. SCARINCI: MR. VIOLA: Okay. MR. SCARINCI: MR. VIOLA: Okay. Herman. Thank you. I share the concerns of my -- Speak into the microphone. That one's not on. I share the concerns of my colleagues of designs. But I do think, since this a memorial, we want to demonstrate that with a design like number 8, even though number 3 is quite beautiful. But it doesn't capture the imagination of 20,000 people dying at that place. MR. SCARINCI: Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you. Mr. Chairman. I have to agree. Thank you, This was a difficult portfolio. We have a lot of information, really, on almost all of the designs. What is difficult for me is the -- you know, the design of number 7 and number 8 where we are really looking at the Court of Honor -- and even 45 number 1. Once those little flags are scaled down to a quarter, I'm not sure we're going to be able to read the (inaudible) on the flags, and I think that that's an important part of the memorial. So I look at number 6 where we have the flags and the written out insignia of the services that were involved. and stymied about really what we want on this coin. I'm confused I think number 6 is going -- 6-A is going to give us a little bit of design quality. And yet will that strike out nicely? I'm not sure.6 is my preference because, as Mary said, the text follows the waving of the flag. I'm very confused about how I'm going to vote here. So I'm sorry. Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: MR. TUCKER: Dennis. Thank you. I actually didn't have much of a problem with this design portfolio. To quote Superintendent Richardson from last meeting from last meeting, World War II is the critical reason for the park's being. We all understand that. I would also offer the definition of memorial. It's a monument or structure established to remind people of a person or event, especially to remember someone who has died, from the Latin word for memory. To me, the clear winner in this portfolio is number 1, and I'll tell you why I feel that way. The boy is specifically Chamorro. The soldier could be Chamorro, or he could be Continental American. It's important to show the Chamorro culture and ethnicity not only for the significance of local participation in the Marianas campaign, but also for the sake of young Asian Americans. My daughter is half Filipino. I would love for 46 her to grow up and see someone who looks like her on a coin that she gets in pocket change. Also, last time, in light of a couple of our recent meetings, we've spoken about the salute as a recognized universal symbol of respect. recognized by the military. It's recognized by civilians; it's This boy is saluting the monument's participation in the Marianas campaign here. This design tells the story of the memorial park. The other designs are, I believe, too generic in their symbolism of memorials. You've got the flowers. You know, we can have memorial urns or any other number of symbols and things that can apply to any memorial park -- either that or my other criticisms would be that the lettering would be too small or it's too literal of a depiction of the park, the photograph on the coin, as we sometimes call it. And those are some of the reasons why I find the other designs inferior. To me, number 1 is, far and away, the best design in this portfolio. MR. SCARINCI: MR. SCOLARI: Thank you. Bob? Thank you. I'd love to -- I'd like to interject. This is Paul Scolari, the superintendent of the American Memorial Park. That was really brilliantly said and pretty much hit exactly on the mark why we here at the park preferred that design. The -- World War II is very much alive in the community out here today. And the way that this design captured the connection across the generation and the impact of World War II, it's just -- it's very well done. And I think as the speaker just said, it would be a great source of pride for the people out here in Micronesia, and it would be very much an educational -- very educational for people on the mainland to suggest 47 the sense of the nature of the history and the contemporary community out here and the way that the war figures into that. MR. SCARINCI: Thank you. Thank you. Dennis Tucker is a renowned numismatic author and scholar. And the more I've gotten to know Dennis, the more I come to understand that he probably dictates his books. (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: I'm sure. And they just come out with very, very little editing, He's very eloquent. MR. MORAN: He only works on my manuscript. MR. SCARINCI: Well, then he's editing. doing his job. All right. MR. HOGE: (Laughter.) He's doing his job. He's Bob. Thank you, Donald. I have to agree with you specifically that this group was probably the weakest and poorest of all the various selections we've been asked to look at and due, undoubtedly, to the difficulty of the subject. I didn't really have a problem with the selection, however. I think number 1 is, indeed, an attractive design, and I understand the reasons that Dennis explained. But I think, reduced to the size of a quarter, this is just going to be a washout. You won't recognize that as a Chamorro boy. You won't recognize this other figure even as a soldier, probably. able to see the flags very well. You won't be You certainly won't see the document and the flowers by the steps there. The same kind of problem holds true with number 7 and number 8. I didn't even realize in looking at the small images that they still incorporated the tiny, tiny lettering 48 that you can see on the big blow-ups. These wouldn't work. Those flags are just going to be little blotches, the vegetation won't show up, and it will be almost impossible to read the Court of Honor Flag Circle business. Unlike most of my selections, I would prefer to see number 4, even though it's simply graphic and composed only of design elements. This does show the American Memorial Park in a very stylized form. I think this would, although it's not very appealing - - it doesn't really do anything for us -- but it actually shows what it's supposed to convey in a symbolic, very symbolic, manner. As far as the designs go, my favorite really was number 3. And I think, although I might not vote for it in opposition to number 4, this does represent a 75-year anniversary as well when we look at the date from 1944 to 2019. The flowers, we think of them as being part of the memorial, and so we're capturing the date of the tragedies in World War II and the – an attractive flower design. really addresses what this is all about. I don't know that it You know, the war, we don't -- we'll have to look up in future generations what that date actually means. But we have some difficult choices. And I'm -- although I think number 4 was perhaps the best here, I'm not really terribly strongly in favor of that. MR. SCARINCI: Thank you. Okay. And if there was any other general comments. MR. TUCKER: MR. SCARINCI: MR. TUCKER: I'll just make one quick general -Yes. -- comment. 49 MR. SCARINCI: MR. TUCKER: Dennis Tucker is speaking. I understand the reluctance to show too much detail on coins, but I would point people to refer to the Ellis Island coin of 2017 and the Frederick Douglass coin of 2017. There is a lot of detail that you can put into a canvass this small. I think number 1 could be done, and I think that certainly on a three-inch diameter silver coin it would be remarkable. MR. SCARINCI: And you liked those two coins? (Laughter.) MR. TUCKER: MR. SCARINCI: vote. I'm talking about the details. Okay. Okay. So without any further ado, why don't we And we'll consolidate. There's three coins -- oh, I'm sorry, Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: I'm going to color outside the lines for a minute since we're talking about Design number 1. One of the reasons that I think that this one will have difficulties compared to the Ellis Island and others is the layering of the objects. We have a strong diagonal texture that's coming in to the base of the soldier. And as Robert pointed out, the stand there with the flowers and the plaque serves no purpose because when it's reduced down it won't be recognizable. So therefore, it has no purpose. And the artists had to reduce the size of the flagpole significantly in order to fit into this composition. So we have these truncated, short flagpoles that look a little strange. I like the concept of this design, and it could work if the two main characters were a little larger and if we separated the flag 50 grouping out. If you look at Design number 2 for a second, see how these flags are the right proportion, but they're further in the distance and, therefore, they're simplified. They're just the poles and the flag shapes, so it's more symbolic of that monument. So if we go back to Design number 1, we could have the flagpoles that way in the distance by themselves, maybe even a silhouette so that they're very simplistic. Then we have more negative space around the boy and the soldier, and that they – that way they would stand out. Now, this would require going back and do a lot of rework. And I don't know if we have the luxury of doing that, but I wanted to throw out the suggestion. A p r i l MS. STAFFORD: S t a f f o r d Well, we do have Ron Harrigal here, who could speak to how those changes could be implemented or if they could be applied and if he foresaw any coin-ability issues with those suggestions. MR. SCARINCI: And Ron, while you're speaking on that, I think there was some question about the flowing design on 6. you make that quarter look like it's current? And you know, can Of course, I'm asking a rhetorical question because I think your answer is yes. (Laugher.) MR. HARRIGAL: Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, speaking to MP-6, you know, we've done flags that show, you know, the waving aspect to it. And it pretty much is a distortion with a text to make it look that it's ore of an illusional aspect because you're dealing with only a few thousandths of an inch for relief differences. But your eyes can pick 51 it up, and you can sort of do a bit of a trick to the eye with those kind of things. So you know, you don't have to take it fully literally as it is there. They do have the ability to work that in. Speaking to MP-1, you're really only dealing with two levels of relief there. in. So I think the artists have some latitude there to get detail You will get some of the detail in the flag, but you're certainly not going to get the full emblems on the flag except for the threeinch version. And then going to MP-2, yeah, you're not going to see the emblems on MP-2. MP-2 would be probably, of the three, the most problematic because of the long skinny flagpoles and trying to polish it between and making sure that they coin right. MS. STAFFORD: So would our artists have any issue taking the perspective of the flags, as Heidi suggested, in Design 2 and applying it to 1 so that there could be more negative space and more -- a better balance? Is that what you would suggest, Heidi? MS. WASTWEET: Yes. MS. STAFFORD: Could you speak to that, Ron? MR. HARRIGAL: I think, certainly, it can be done. MS. WASTWEET: You could even beef up – those flagpoles are a little more durable, but they're not going to be any less durable than, say, your common text. MR. HARRIGAL: Long, skinny lines against a field are very problematic to do, especially when you get into proofing coin. First off, you have metal flow issues where the -- where it may not necessarily look straight when -- as the metal flows. And we'd have to adjust for 52 that. So certainly, on Design number 1, MP-1, the adjustments have been made to the flagpoles there. design. You see that's appropriate for that They're going to be pretty much silhouettes on either with some amount of detail on it definitely in MP-1.I think MP-2 would be certainly doable, but I think you may end up being disappointed with the outcome. I think it's -- I mean, we could put it on there, but I think ultimately to get the detail to make it look like you envision it or want it to look, I think it's going to be mainly so lots of flags back there. MS. WASTWEET: Yeah, I'm not concerned about the emblems on the flags. It's just going to be a suggestion, and that's fine. appropriate because of the scale. That's And if they were, indeed, just silhouettes, that would be fine, too, or represent what is there. So the -- I guess the technical question is getting -- oh, can you get a long straight line on a coin. MR. HARRIGAL: We like to avoid them. (Laughter.) MR. HARRIGAL: that. I mean, certainly, we have done straight lines like But again, it's something that we're going to have to look at how it -- how the metal flows once we get into the tooling, you know. The way to offset that -- now, and you kind of – any time you ever (inaudible), you have draft on the sides. So even letters end up being wider. And visually, they look wider because of the draft on the sides. So that's going to be extremely low relief. 53 MS. STAFFORD: Yeah. And drafting those flagpoles and making them a little wider would certainly be acceptable. MR. HARRIGAL: Like I said, when you get the approved coin, it's going to be a challenge. I think we can. I – you know, I can't say that we can't do it, but But I think once we get in, it's going to definitely be something that we're going to have to make multiple versions of tooling to get it right. MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: Ron? Ron, do you have any issues with number 3 with the flowers? MR. HARRIGAL: MS. LANNIN: MR. HARRIGAL: MS. LANNIN: MR. HARRIGAL: No, we've done flowers like that -Okay. -- before. I mean, you -- All right. You know, the -- I think when you look at them on a coin that you don't get the gradations of the petals and that sort of thing. I mean, if you look, I think we did a Louisiana quarter with flowers and that. And you -- and that's the type of thing that if you envision what that was -- and I think it was a Dolley Madison coin, which was more -- it was a proofed version, a silver dollar. But again, the -- you know, you do -- you can do it, but you're not going to get -- I mean, it's all going to be reflective metal, so you're not going to see a lot of that detail. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thank you. 54 MR. SCARINCI: Thank you. MR. HARRIGAL: Yeah. MR. SCARINCI: Okay. So let's -- Erik, a brief comment, and then we can probably vote. MR. JANSEN: There was some, I think, concern about the abbreviation of the Northern Mariana Islands on the perimeter. Is that worth discussing here to see if there's an alternative way of getting versions of that that are not so awkward or otherwise -MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: We can do that in the next round if -Okay. MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: No problem. -- there is a next round. Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: So let's -- right now, let's vote, and then let's take a less than five-minute bathroom break and go on with the third thing. Bob, something quick? MR. HOGE: Just one quick observation. These actually are supposed to be circulating coins as well, right? MR. SCARINCI: MR. HOGE: Yes, that's correct. With this extremely low relief, the problems with these very fine lines, this grayscale, I have a problem with grayscale in drawings when you try to convey it to coins. to be basically flat pieces. wear, what's going to be left? These things are going And once they sustain a little bit of You know -- 55 MS. WASTWEET: MR. HOGE: Which one are you referring to? All of them. MS. WASTWEET: it? Well, that's -- well, I think that in the -- what is 6 -- 6-A. I think the gradation is just meant to reflect the sculpted layers rather than any kind of toning. MR. HOGE: I understand. the grayscale. But think of the lettering that's shown in That's going to be very, very fine, extremely low relief, too. I know wizard Ron is -- he can do anything like this. But why should I have to if this is a circulating coin? Why can't we have something that does show relief in a much better fashion? MR. SCARINCI: That's a good point. That's a good point. Let's vote, please, and let's be absolutely back. minutes. It could be three I'm just going to go to the candy machine -- (Laughter.) (Off the record.) MR. SCARINCI: Please. We have some voting results. the -- you want to vote? MR. WEINMAN: What do you want to do? You want to wait until after -A p r i l S t a f f o r d We should go to the next. MR. SCARINCI: You want to do the next one? Okay. MR. SCARINCI: design. It's up to you. (Crosstalk.) MS. STAFFORD: MR. WEINMAN: So let's open Let's do that. Let's do the next resign -- blah, blah -- the next 56 MS. STAFFORD: War in the Pacific National Historical Park was established in 1978 to commemorate the bravery, courage, and sacrifice of those participating in the campaigns of the Pacific Theater of World War II. The park tells the story of how the U.S. took the Pacific Theater island by island. Former battlefields, gun in placements, trenches, and historic military structures all serve as reminders of the World War II battles. The park also conserves and interprets a variety of amazing resources found on Guam. War in the Pacific National Historical Park has the highest biological diversity of any national park, as it comprises both underwater and land areas. Paul Scolari, whom we just spoke with, Acting Superintendent, is also our liaison to this site. Paul, would you like to share any information about War in the Pacific National Historical Park? And while you're doing that, we'll put up your preference - MR. SCARINCI: And Paul, before -- MS. STAFFORD: -- preference. MR. SCARINCI: And Paul, before you get started -P a u l MR. SCOLARI: S c o l a r i Okay. MR. SCARINCI: Paul -- is this not on? (Crosstalk.) MR. SCARINCI: Paul, Paul, Paul. to put Erik on notice. Since he was the last to sit down, he's going to start the discussion. (Laughter.) Before you get started, I just want 57 MR. SCARINCI: Then we're going to move over to Mike and Herman, and we'll go around the table that way. MR. JANSEN: MR. SCARINCI: Do you promise to do that to me each time? When you're the last one standing, yes. So I'm sorry. I just wanted to prepare them for the order that we're going to go in. Go right ahead, please. P a u l MR. SCOLARI: Okay. S c o l a r i Thanks. So the war in the Pacific National Historical Park, you know, it's obvious that it -- the theme of the park is very identical, basically, to American Memorial Park. But how it's distinguished from American Memorial Park is that War in the Pacific is a historical park. And so the parkland and the focal point of the park are, really, the two major landing beaches on Guam where American servicemen landed and began the assault on Guam and, ultimately, liberated Guam. Beach and Agat Beach. And that's -- those features are Asan And so the park is really a place that takes you back and places the (inaudible) there on the former battlefield. And so that's how it distinguishes itself from American Memorial Park, which is purely commemorated in its purpose. But that -- mainly, what I'd like to say about this park, which if you'd like I could talk briefly about our preferences, or I can stop there and you could go on with the process as you see fit. MR. SCARINCI: Yeah. Let's -- please talk about the preferences. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay. (inaudible - off mic). 58 MR. SCARINCI: MR. SCOLARI: Oh, yes, please talk about the preferences. Okay. So our number one preference for this series of designs is Design number 2. And the reason for that is we thought it was important that -- what is a key holiday on the island of Guam and a key concept that's really strong here on Guam is the concept and the celebration and the liberation of the islands in 1944. And so we thought that it was important that the coin expressed that liberation symbolically. And we think Guam 2 does that, and it does that in a very active way through the American servicemen clearly kind of symbolically storming the beach and placing the flag. What we think is nice about this design is that, today, in more -- more or less, about the last 10 years, one of the premier events in the park and one of the most important celebrations on the island of Guam is Memorial Day. And what we do on Memorial Day is, at Asan Beach, we place American flags and the flag of Guam on the beach in great number, representing all of those Chamorros and American servicemen lost during the war. It is a signature event for the island of Guam. And so this coin design blends that concept of the historical liberation of Guam with the idea of sacrifice and the way that that sacrifice is commemorated in the present day on the island. So that's why Guam number 2 is our first choice. We also have a preference for Guam 3 in the secondary way. Guam 3 had an interesting designed evolution. This was not -- this was a design that was -- that arose based upon a considerable amount of impact -- input from park staff together with a design -- a previous design that focused on the beach itself. But it really -- it has some problems with it. So our park staff shared some images from 59 World War II with the designers. And what this particular designer picked up on was -- there are a lot of images, historical images, from the period that represent what you see in Guam 3, which is just -it's a very realistic portrayal of the assault on Guam. It is -- I gather from your discussions that I've been listening to you're more interested or lean towards the symbolic versus the illustrative. this definitely is more on the illustrative side. And But we thought there was something compelling and raw about this and realistic and suggestive about it. And so we kind of like this as a secondary design. And that is it. MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: Thank you very much. Erik. Thank you, Chairman. I'll keep my comments brief. I personally thought the contrast between the war memorial and the native presence, animal (ph) presence, was a challenge. And what I'm now hearing is that is a challenge, but we really want to do the memorial side of this thing. Having said that, I thought Design number 6 was really creative. I don't understand -- or rather, I do understand that there are some issues of are there any propellers under the water there, blah, blah, blah. And I understand that turtles may be problematic in terms of themes that are actually used on American coins. I only make that comment on the side that I thought that was provocative melding of two highly contrasting worlds. wish we could incorporate that idea here. And I I'm not sure we're going to be able to pull that off. So I'm going to focus on the images that, in fact, focus on the memorial of the value of Guam and he war in the Pacific. I think we could easily go to 9 or 10 in a utilitarian sense 60 and call it done. I understand there could be some questions of historical accuracy or appropriateness of those particular gun sets. I think that carries the war theme about as well as any soldier would. Having said that, I probably would prefer Design number 2. I think Design number 1 is going to end up being kind of a geometric blah on the coin. Design number 3 has wonderful composition. It just lacks energy, and so I don't find it to be very attractive. Design number 2, I think there's some anatomical issues with the soldier's left arm and soldier and hand. a quarter. But it's certainly in the palette of the design of It will come across loud and clear as a soldier working for the American dream with some -- well, are those palms, or are those explosions in the sky? MR. SCARINCI: MR. MORAN: It doesn't much matter. I get it. Thank you. Michael? I'll talk a little bit about number 1. After six years on this Committee, I hate to see article (ph) shading, and that's what that is. It will not coin. It just won't. And I wish we'd stop seeing these things from our AIP (ph) people. All right. positive. Something I like the wedding of the wildlife, the restoration (ph) of the wildlife, in the waters along with the detritus of war. Maybe there weren't. Maybe we should correct it as to what is down there on the bottom and do it accurately between the crashed airplane or the tank or something else. But I -- it's hard to get past this. And I know there's some problem over at Treasury about a turtle, and I'm darned if I know why. inscriptions, the feet. I like the way the legs extend into the It's just -- it's a positive look. And regardless of where other things are going, that's where I'm going, is 61 number 6. I also like, by the way, the fish. But I -- that tank is an awful representation. MR. SCARINCI: Okay. Thank you. MR. VIOLA: Having spent 30 years in the Museum of Natural History at this facility, biodiversity is really something I'm excited about. But I don't think we want that in the memorial medal for Guam. And I think most of you know for the past two years I've been helping develop a memorial on the mall (ph) for American Indian veterans and going around Indian country speaking with veterans all across the country. They find these moments extremely powerful. I mean, you have no idea how many of the veterans start crying when they talk about their military service. And so the idea of having fish or turtles where so many died I just don't think is going to work. So I would have to say the number 2 would be -- would get my vote. Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: Jeanne. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have to agree with my colleagues about the (inaudible) here. some very intriguing designs. It -- we were presented with And I first -- when I first opened it up, the portfolio was pretty exciting. However, I have to agree with Herman. I don't think at this time -- this becomes a little bit frivolous to designate the severity of what went on and what is still going on in Guam. So I think we need to respect those veterans, those who are no longer with us, to honor their presence on Guam. And I keep going back to Design number 3. I like 2, but 3 is, to me, very 62 powerful. We have negative space in the wire. We've got a little bit of representation in the wire of the boats and the soldiers. And also, the ships, the destroyers in the background, even though they were very difficult to determine what the -- is it the -UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yeah. It's an LSD (ph). I think that that's pretty neat to see that. But it's the negative space that draws me into this design. It's what we've been asking for. I feel that number 2, although I like the celebrity (ph) of the flags, I don't like -- and I truly don't like the fact that the flags end at his silhouette in the back. You know, it's like you want them to continue, and yet if they continue that's too much information. So it's like, yeah, it's just kind of like, well, I'll just drop those off. And that doesn't make any sense to me, whereas Design number 1 I agree with Michael about maybe it not striking up very much. But I think that design is pretty amazing. And my eye keeps going back to those palms, to the flags. And even though maybe when it is reduced in size, we don't really know what it is. But it's kind of a powerful design. So I am going to go with number 3 because it is, in my opinion, the best. Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: Dennis, you're allowed to dictate. (Laughter.) MR. TUCKER: animals. I agree with everything that's been said about the This is a site of military honor, and it would be -- frivolous I thought was a good word that Jeanne used. I think it 63 would be frivolous to use animals to convey that. Number 2, it's dynamic. It illustrates the military action of the war, but also includes some scenery, local scenery, with the trees. And I also was struck by the concept that, on a smaller canvas, those could look like explosions in the background. So that's kind of an interesting illusion that might be a secondary benefit of this design. I think it'll translate well to the three-inch diameter. My only concern from an anatomical perspective was the angle and position of the Marine's right foot. It -- to me, it looks like the right foot is actually closer to us as a viewer. So it's to the foreground of his left foot, but then it's -- the foot itself is pointing off to the right, twisted somehow. So he would -- to me, it looks like he would be off balance. Anyway, that's something I think the artist and the engraver can work out. Also, I would want to make sure that the – hi uniform and gear are historically accurate, if someone could confirm that. I don't have any reason to think that it's not, but I just wanted to mention that someone with more expertise than I have should really scrutinize that. And I'm sure the designers put a lot of attention to that, but I wanted to point that out. Number 3 I think is -- it just lacks energy. It's a nice drawing, and I like the negative space and the reflection. But it's -- it lacks the energy of number 2. Those are my comments. MR. SCARINCI: MR. HOGE: Next, Bob. Thank you, Donald. It was mentioned that Guam has this terrific biodiversity, and I think we might be remiss in not including some of the wildlife, which is important there. And of course, the 64 war had a big impact on this. Number 3 is a good war image, but, you know, we have so many war images now, World War II depictions on American coinage. And this is really just going to get lost in the pack of so many other designs, I'm afraid. And number 3, also, I have a question for Ron. How would you go about depicting reflections in water? MR. HARRIGAL: Well, typically, what we would do is we would put either some sort of minor relief there and possibly some sort of texture there. We could do it multiple way -- there's multiple techniques they can use. MR. HOGE: I'm thinking in a proofed version it might be pretty difficult, though, to get that to be in a plane. MR. HARRIGAL: Yeah. I mean, when you're looking at a proofed version, what we would end up having to do would be to use the laser technology to put it in there. But ultimately, just using traditional methods, that would be a very shallow plane. And you know, you would put either some texture and then polish over the texture or polish around it. But -MR. HOGE: So -- MR. HARRIGAL: -- or light crossing (ph). I mean, there's multiple things they can do to make the illusion. MR. HOGE: It sounds kind of difficult. Again, I have a problem with something that represents so much of the design in grayscale. artists need to get away from this kind of thing. Our This is a sculpture, not a drawing, that we're contemplating producing here in 65 the Mint. So this is a beautiful design, but it's a drawing. This is not a sculpt. My favorite of these, again, like some of my colleagues, is number 6. Too bad there weren't any downed aircraft there, right? (Laughter.) MR. HOGE: effective. But maybe there could be a substitution that would be And if Treasury could get around rejecting the idea of having turtles, maybe we could have something like a downed Japanese canon lurking among the corals. I do like the idea of numbers 5 through 8 showing a variety of undersea life. But I do agree that it needs to include some element of warfare, which is why I prefer number 6. I don't like the tank in number 5. Maybe a canon or something like that would work. Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: Thank you, Bob. Well, it's a -- you gave me a good segue to what I was going to say. I understand, you know, why people -- I -- maybe I'm wrong -- understand why people gravitate towards all these war things. I think, you know, number 2 and number 3 -- how many times are we going to do that? I mean, we did it in 1991, the Korea war memorial. We did it in 1995, World War II Memorial. Marine Corps memorial. We did it in 2005 with the We've done it and done and done it. that's when Congress tells us we have to do it, all right? pretty much most of our Congressional Gold Medals. themes. And It's They're war I mean, we look like all we do is have war. So I think -- and I think, you know, what's nice, what's really cool about number 6 -and maybe we're not quite there with the design on number 6 because, 66 obviously, you know, what's under the water, you know, I think your idea of a Japanese cannon is brilliant. You know, it shows that we -- you know, that we actually won that war, all right? And you know, a downed Japan -- you know, take this Japanese cannon, you know, from number 9 -- you know, that's a Japanese cannon -- take that Japanese cannon and put it under water, make the turtle a touch smaller, and you've got a great coin. I mean, what's the war about in the first place? It was about protecting a planet, it was about protecting people, and it was about protecting the wildlife and the things of these beautiful, beautiful places. And you know, rather than for Guam to be known, you know, as, you know, this military base, maybe we need to communicate to the American people that Guam is more than that. It's more than what they studied about World War II. It's more than this military base that we use that becomes threatened and that is threatened today. And you know, maybe we make a statement about the world and about who we are as a people and what our priorities are and depict at the same time that, yep, that war happened, we won, and there's a park that commemorates it and honors it. But this is why we commemorate it and honor it. So I think, you know, I'm going to vote for number 6. And then if number 6 wins, we'll talk about, you know, how we can change it a touch. And you know, let's also not forget that turtles -- people like turtles on coins. This will sell. Number 12 -- number 2 is same old-same old. Who wants it, really, again and again and again? So that's my comment. Mary. 67 MS. LANNIN: Okay. Although I agree with the comments that have been made about the frivolousness of using wildlife, I am sold by what Donald said about number 6. I think if we can change whatever detritus has been left from the war to something that's absolutely accurate, to me, it shows, again, that we won. But it's also a sign of renewal that the sea is taking over something and building something new on top of it. Again, with our record with Treasury with turtles, one never knows. behind number 6. But I think that I would throw my vote And from there, I would go to number 2 because I actually do like all that negative space. I don't think that that shows inactivity – or I'm sorry -- number 2 -- number 3. think that that shows such inactivity. I don't I think it shows vigilance, and I think it shows the aftermath of them getting on to Guam with things that maybe have been slowing down a little bit but they're still very vigilant. So I guess my first choice would be number 6. My second choice would be number 3. Thank you. MR. URAM: Okay. I'll continue on. And I've voted for every turtle so far. (Laughter.) MR. URAM: So maybe I should not on this one. Maybe it will get it. I -- and I really want to -- I mean, I'm going to give some votes to the turtle, number 6. But what I would have like -- I'm sorry -- 8. like 8 because of the little bit more of the – (Alarm ringing.) I 68 MR. URAM: See what happens when we get with the turtles. (Fire alarm ringing.) MR. URAM: I'll just continue on, and they can let us know. What I really would have liked to have seen is the image of the flags -(Automated speaker message.) (Crosstalk.) MR. SCARINCI: recess. To be continued. Okay. (Inaudible) Let's (inaudible) fire and recess -- (Off the record.) MR. WEINMAN: MR. SCARINCI: the record. Back on the record. Okay. We are -- we have (inaudible) of the minutes and We were briefly recessed for purposes of a fire alarm. And the -- it is now 12:25, and the meeting is resuming, so to finish your discussion and vote on the war in the Pacific National Park's quarter. So Tom was speaking. MR. URAM: And why don't we continue, Tom. And in conclusion … (Laughter.) MR. URAM: What I was beginning to say was regarding the turtle. And you know, I really think that the wildlife is certainly part of the whole spectrum here. I would have loved to have seen horizon with the flags on top and then the turtle going down into the water with some sort of symbolic message of the flags and so forth the -- to keep the war in the Pacific, the whole picture. Having said that, I know that the stakeholder mentioned about how important Memorial Day was. 69 So I'm going to have to stay with number 2 simply because understand my colleagues who have said that we've seen numerous images on other coins. But maybe it's not as much as the image as it is the topic and the palette that we have here to work with. But I'm just going to take the stakeholder's word in regards to how important Memorial Day is, and I think I'm just going to have to go with this one, as much as I would like to do any of the animals -- animals -- either the fish or the turtle -MR. HOGE: Coral. MR. URAM: -- the coral was -- yeah. So I understand it. I like it. But I think based on what the importance of this is to the stakeholder, I think that the palm trees will be fine. I don't think that they're going to distract in any way. And Dennis had mentioned about the soldier maybe being a little off balance. it some motion. I'm fine with that. To me, it gives I think that he is off balance. I think he's running up that hill, and I think that he's trying to plant the flag. And I think you have a lot of motion going there. So you have the blowing flags. You have him and the motion. I just think there's a lot there. So for the first time, I will be voting against the turtle, though giving the turtle a couple months (ph). Thank you, Mc. Chairman. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: Okay. Heidi. (inaudible – off mic). 70 MS. WASTWEET: Thank you. I agree with pretty much all the statements around the table today. I think we're all pretty much on the same page, and it does pose a problem to narrow it down to just one design for all the reasons that have been stated. Let's talk about Design number 2 first. I really appreciate the fact that the artist was trying to do the here and the now. symbolically. That's very appreciated Unfortunately, it hasn't made it a particularly attractive design. And as has been pointed out, the anatomy of the soldier looks a little off. And I think what's happening is you've got the -- so his back feet, which are turned away from us, which would put the right shoulder back further and his right arm would not be so far forward. And I think that's what's making it look off in the anatomy, is the twist of the hip and the shoulder. That's something that could be resolved. It's not a deal breaker. But -- and I like this design, but it's not what -- it doesn't have the wow factor. And if we talk about Designs 5 and 6, which are all along the same vein, I want to compliment the artists for the attempt. creativity in this is really appreciated. the underwater. The I like the combination of And it really does, like Mary said, show the renewal and the resilience of Guam that they recovered and life is coming back. I love that concept. I do feel like the -- both the turtle and the fish are overpowering of the leftover machinery. see that balance shifted so it's more equal. artwork change. And I'd like to But again, that requires And even in Design 6 where we have a downed aircraft, we would have to fill in with something else. All of these require some changes. So based on what we're given -- and as you know, each of 71 us around the table have a specialty that we're here for in our seat, and my specialty being that of metallic sculpture. I'm going to be looking just specifically at the artwork itself. I'm going to point out Design number 3. Artistically, I think this is the strongest design as it's presented to us on the page. And I'd like to point out why, briefly. We talk often about how too much detail and too small images don't work on a small palette. solutions to that. If we look at the machinery in the far distance, there's no detail there. distance. This is -- this -- example of It is just the outlines of them in the That's the most effective way to handle small objects on a small palette, is to pare it down to the essentials. Even the small soldier in the water, you can see you don't have every detail of every piece of equipment on his uniform. essential shapes. It's just pared down to the And our minds fill in the rest. as detailed without the detail. So it looks just And that's what shows up on a coin. That's why this works. And there's no delineation between his legs and the water. That's brilliant. That's exactly what we need. And the island up on the upper left corner, the way the wave is just a suggestive and abstract shape is very effective. The way the gun breaks the line of the border is very creative and artistic. There's no detail in his face. This is exactly the way to put a lot of information onto a small coin. And then I read this as the water, the white area being polished. And that adds all the contrast that we need so this pops off the coin. it ruins the whole thing. If we try to sculpt waves in there, We need the polish there for the contrast and the visibility. So this is along that, despite the comments that I 72 agree with about we have too many military subjects. But if I do look at just this program and just the artwork that's presented to us as is, this design rises to the top for me for quality reasons alone. MR. VIOLA: Can I make one comment before we go on? MR. SCARINCI: MR. VIOLA: Yes. April asked me a question before we sat down here to convene and enter some discussion and going back and forth. that she was making I think is a correct one. The point While we have honored the military and the -- our veterans, particularly, in World War II to a very great extent, we have not had in any of our circulating coins, at least on the quarters that I'm aware of, any of the modern wars. And to that extent, I'm swayed in my -- well, I just want to make that point. MR. SCARINCI: I -- and so I think we went full circle. everyone's commented. Okay. All -- So why don't -- without any further ado, why don't we vote on this and move on to our next discussion. MR. WEINMAN: MR. SCARINCI: Do you want to break for lunch? Should we break for lunch? (Side conversation.) MR. SCARINCI: though. Yeah, let's try to keep it to a 30-minute lunch, You know, then we can talk about all the other designs. I'm just kidding for the record. MR. WEINMAN: Please do submit your ballot before we break. otherwise, we'll be at recess for the next 30 minutes. But 73 MR. SCARINCI: -- DAC. And we'll call upon April to talk to us about excess (ph). A p r i l MS. STAFFORD: Okay. S t a f f o r d Thank you very much. The San Antonio Missions help create the foundation for the city, in large part, due to the strength of the communities forged within. The Missions were built as walled compounds located close to each other and the San Antonio River. Construction of aqueducts and irrigation canals brought water to the Missions which sustained farming. Our liaison, Lauren Gurniewicz, Chief of Interpretation at San Antonio Missions National Historical Park, joins us today on the phone. Lauren, are you there? (No response.) MS. STAFFORD: Lauren, if you're there and on mute … MR. SCARINCI: We know you're there. MS. STAFFORD: So what I'll do is after I go through the design We know you're there. descriptions, perhaps we can refer back and see if Ms. Gurniewicz has had a chance to join us. Would that be okay? (No audible response.) MS. STAFFORD: All righty. So we'll look at the preferences first. Really, they prefer the designs that were a take on the Spanish real, so here it's Series 3, 3-A, and 3-B. about that. We'll talk a little bit more There were a couple of others they thought were strong, but we'll note that as we go through the portfolio. All right. So we'll start with Design 1, presents the park through a combination of 74 its most iconic components -- water throwing -- flowing through an irrigation canal; a mission bell; and a quatrefoil. 2 portrays a mission bell on a stone archway while a Texas spotted whiptail lizard climbs the stonework. Designs 3, 3-A, and 3-B, as noted, the liaison's preferences thus far, use elements of the Spanish Colonial real to pay tribute to the Missions. Within the quadrants are symbols of the Missions -- wheat, symbolizing farming; the arches and bell, community; a lion representing the Spanish cultural heritage; and a symbol of the San Antonio River representing the irrigation methods and life-sustaining resources. Design 4, noted by the liaison as a strong design, depicts a mission bell in stoned archway. Design 5, also noted by the liaison as a strong design, represents the facade of Mission San Jose. Design 6 focuses on the front doors of Mission Concepcion. Design 7 depicts the facade of Mission Concepcion. Design 8 showcases the details of the façade of Mission Espada. This design was also noted by the liaison as a strong design. 9 highlights the details of the rose window of Mission San Jose. Design 10 showcases two Mexican spotted owls perched on ruins in front of Mission Concepcion. 11 and 11-A depict the Mission's proximity to the San Antonia River as a life-giving and community- building water resource. Design 11-A features an off- center bell tower element. And Design 12 depicts the elements of farming, ranching, and the use of irrigation canals taught by the missions. So one more time, I'll see if we have Lauren Gurniewicz, Chief of Interpretation at San Antonio Missions National Historical Park, with us. Lauren, are you there? (No response.) 75 MS. STAFFORD: Okay. We'll shoot an email to her. If she should join us, I'll ask that she notifies us. MR. SCARINCI: Okay. For the first, so to start us off, we're going to go with Tom. MR. URAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I -- first, I want to commend all the artists here. I think that we do have a subject and artistic designs that are really, really well thought out. However, I'm going to get right to the point. And being a member of the 1715 Fleet Society, the eight reals is certainly right up -- high up there on my list, the number 3. community. I like the symbolism of the farming, the Everything's put together there. And I think the whole idea would be to decide what quadrants the stakeholder and Lauren might want to have in regards to the importance since we have several different ones among three designs. If we look at both number 3, 3-A, and 3-B, the question becomes -- and I think it's appropriate; Mary and I were talking -- that 3-B with the cross away from the edge really defines the coin in a different way. It's more like the cross and all of these are free- floating almost within the palette of the coin. So I kind of like that approach versus the attachment to an outer rim and have it floating. And the symbology of that is, I think, more powerful than 3 and 3-A. So I am just going to say that congratulations to all the artists that did work within this portfolio, but that I'm going to go with 3-B and go for that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 76 MR. SCARINCI: Okay. And the pressure is going to be on Erik and Michael and Dennis and Bob to talk about which of these three designs you like the best, even if you don't like any of them. But I'm curious about what you think, you know, would be a good coin if we were to go with that so that we could save some time at the end. So for now, Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: I'd like to -- I'd first like to say this is a fantastic packet. Thank you to all the artists -- some really nice, nice designs here. I was particularly impressed with Design number 1. I think this is a beautiful, creative. It's size-appropriate. It hits all the important landmark points in the water and the bell in the Mission. It's a fantastic design. Number 2, very creative with the wildlife edition. 3, 3-A, and 3-B, of course, these are fantastic. I'm very excited for this group. I don't have a preference between the orientation of the objects or the objects. But I do have a preference for 3-B the way the cross is pulled in from the edge -definitely want to go in that direction. Number 4 I think is a little too plain, as well as 5. It's too plain compared to the other creative designs that we have. They're nice, but they're not as good as some of the others. And Design number 8, I just want to point out the detail on the right side of the stylization of the trees. it's really, really lovely. I think Of course, it's too small to show up on this coin, but I just want to compliment the artist on that. to see more of that kind of stylization. I'd like I think that's really beautiful, and it would look great if it were a bigger element in a design. Number 10, also, I think is a really lovely design. It may be 77 better suited to a medal, but I wanted to call out kudos to the artist there. I'm going to -- for this particular program, 'm going to focus on Design 1 and the series of Design 3, 3-A, and 3-B. MS. STAFFORD: So if I could just interrupt and one more time call out for Ms. Gurniewicz. she can hear us. We do have confirmation she is on the line and And in fact, she responded both times when we called upon her, but for some reason we are not hearing her. So Lauren, are you there? L a u r e n MS. GURNIEWICZ: MS. STAFFORD: I am. Can you hear me? Yes. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MS. STAFFORD: Yay. Yay. MS. GURNIEWICZ: MS. STAFFORD: G u r n i e w i c z Oh, yay. Okay. Thank you. That was very weird. Would you like to say a few words about the site? MS. GURNIEWICZ: Well, I mean, everything you said was great. I guess I would like to sort of firm up my support of 3-A as being, to me, a lot more interesting. And I feel like a lot of these designs were very expected that we would see the churches. And 3-A is very, very interesting to me and I think really represents what we're about with just a few concerns about how the water is represented. But overall, I just think that is just really fantastic. But as far as how you summarized the park, I think that was great. So I don't think I really need to add anything unless I'm called upon. 78 MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Thank you. they need to. Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: So just to clarify, 3, 3-A, and 3-B – UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: And our members will do so should I don't think your mic is on -- (Crosstalk.) MR. SCARINCI: Oh, you like 3-A. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: Oh. MS. GURNIEWICZ: MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: Okay. Very good. Your mic. So you like 3-A of the three designs like this. Correct. Okay. Mm-hmm. Okay. Erik. Just to give continuity here, why 3-A over a very similar 3-B? MS. GURNIEWICZ: this. I'm pulling up out of our file right now. I don't have that PDF (ph), though. I hate But of all of those designs, I have the \four that -MR. JANSEN: Perhaps I can give you a little visual reminder her. The difference, I think, between 3-A and 3-B is the way the ends of the orthogonal cross either end before the rim or they bleed to the rim. 3-A is the bleed to the rim; 3-B they kind of terminate in a blocky fashion before it gets to the rim. Does that help? (No response.) MR. JANSEN: Okay. I think we may have lost her. Anyway, first of all, thank you, thank you, thank you. I think you can attribute it to 79 the venue. I actually think it's through our process here. The notes that were drafted in the prior meeting, the months (ph) for these five coins, and this one in particular, were really well done. So thank you, Vanessa. Thank you, Pam. Thank you, Roger. Thank you, April. Thank you. I think that is -- that's an effort we've been trying to push for the last couple of years and really well done. I think that gave the artists a confident platform and a rich one to work from. And we get out what we get in. a lot out. And we put a lot in, and we're getting So thank you. Second of all, I think the artists are really hearing us when we say we want to symbols that carry emotion and energy and content and not pictures unknown. storyboards; call it what you want. So call it We're getting really rich symbolics (sic) here. And so I'll just jump right in. Design number 3. I happen to prefer 3-B. a little more appropriate. I'm a fan of I think, historically, it's The Spanish coinage, which is the precursor, I think, stylistically. And production-wise, it adheres to that reality better. Having said that, Design number 1 is super lovely. Now, and it's probably well above our pay grade here, quite honestly, in terms of the beauty of the artistry, which I don't think the quarter would carry. So kudos to the artist behind Design number 1. I think there's a lot of fun other symbolics on here. But I'm just going to cut it short and say I'm in for 3 and I'm in for 3-B. If -- to the extent Ms. Gurniewicz comes on and can hear this and can give us how she might prefer A over B, I'd love to hear that. And then maybe and presuming 3 gets a nod here, we can have a motion or a quick discussion after the vote's in how to handle maybe the water 80 differently to her preference. But I think the symbols are there. It's really an interesting way to go here. Thank you. MR. MORAN: second. Thank you, Erik. I want to do (inaudible) for just a I know if Don won't -- let me I have any more than a second. But I want to make a point to all of us, that until 1853 and the Act of 1853 they changed the weight in our silver coinage. The Spanish coins were the coins that the average man in the street both recognized and used. With the exception of the populations and the bankers on the eastern seacoast and around New Orleans, you didn't see American coins. They were a rarity. These are what you saw in your everyday commerce, and I'm tickled to death. And I think we're going to choose what will really be a two-bit (ph) piece. appropriate. And I think it's That's why we have a quarter today, is because we basically were on the Spanish monetary system for all of the 19th century. So back to the designs, I think it's clear that we should use the cross that is stylized and separated from the rim. instantly recognizable by a numismatist with this. It will be And the public will -- can learn from it. I, therefore, would vote for 3-B. I would ask the Committee to consider the looking at the designs that are in the quadrants and took a look at 3. and I like the fish above the water. I like the stylized (inaudible), And I like the -- God, I can't come up with the right word, but the diagonal symmetry between the wheat and the water and then the more stylistic line and the bell tower, the Mission tower. And to me, that's more aesthetically pleasing juxtaposed onto 3-C -- 3-B. 81 MR. VIOLA: Thank you. Again, I think these are really wonderful designs, wonderful drawings. great work of art. And I do think number 1 is really a I'd love to see that somehow. I'm also want to say for the record that I'm so glad no one likes number 12 – (Laughter.) MR. VIOLA: -- because that -- the American Indian community would jump on this like the redskins. And so the missions really cause a great deal of harm to the Indian community. So I would say that I support whole-heartedly 3-B. Thank you. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: colleagues on this. Thank you. I'm going to go along with my I do like number 1. I think it's powerful. I think it would make a great coin, and it's something we haven't done before. But also, you know, 3-B is equally as wonderful as 1 in a different way. So to make this succinct, that's -- those are my two choices. Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: MR. TUCKER: Dennis. Okay. I also agree number 1 is remarkable. the stronger designs. It's one of The quatrefoil subtly brings in the element of Christianity without specifically showing a crucifix or cross. And I love the 3, you know -- as a numismatist -- or the block of 3, 3-A, and 3-B. As a coin collector and numismatist, I was really excited to see these symbols. I think the -- my preference is actually for 3-A. In 3-B with the cross floating like that, to me, it looks like an -it reminds me of the African Katanga Cross for whatever reason. I don't know if that's a good or bad thing, but it doesn't say Spanish- 82 American coin as much as 3-A says with the cross going out to the perimeter there. Also, I think it's significant that the Mission's bell tower and the royal lion are at the top of these designs because, really, the equation, if you will, the cultural equation, was, in exchange for the protection the Mission gave the locals, they had to swear fealty to the Spanish king and they had to convert to Christianity. So I think it's significant that we have the church and the royal lion at the top of those designs. I think they're, you know, numismatically and symbolically very strong, and I am very happy to see them. MR. SCARINCI: MR. HOGE: And I thank the artists. Bob. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think we really can't go wrong with this group with whichever piece we want to select. Number 1 has a particularly good numismatic design because the quatrefoil actually does appear on the Spanish Colonial coins as well. This is something found in gold issues. But the cross that we see on Design numbers 3 is certainly very representative of Spanish coinage as well. I would prefer 3-B because the ends of the cross are shown in this form. It's a cross pattee. And this brings us to the actual question of heraldry. I don't know if this has really been fully investigated by the artist or other stakeholders, but we might want to ascertain exactly what significant might or might not be attached to what appears in the specific quadrants. We have here a substitution of the bell tower of a mission church in place of the typical Castilla of the coins of Castile in Spain. So we have the royal emblem, which is actually that of the kingdom of Leon in medieval Spanish arms, along with the 83 mission but nothing representing Castile. represent Spain. But does it need to? So this doesn't fully Well, I don't know. And the positioning to something, as I say, really is an aspect that might be something we would want to consider in terms of the heraldic content. I like these other designs as well. beautiful group here. I mean, I think we've got a I have to echo, Herman, that I think number 12 might not be a good selection. But still, it's a very pretty drawing. I like the little lizard on number 2, but that gives it too much weight. This is not a commemorative of the lizard. You know, nice group of pieces, and my vote would probably be for 3-B. I don't like having the ends of the cross truncated because then it could be a cross from some other medieval style coinage as well. Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: Thank you. I also have to compliment the art -- all of the artists here. And you know, absolutely with very few exceptions in this group, these artists attended the artist program in Philadelphia, and they listened and they heard us. And it makes me feel very good because a lot of effort and time was put into doing that. The number 1 is just -- you know, and the only reason, you know, if it doesn't get the votes -- and it probably won't -- but the only reason it's not getting the votes is because I think there's a general feeling that, you know, that the 3, 3-A, and 3-B are just -- you know, are just so appropriate for this particular coin. But I think the artist who did it needs to hear that this would absolutely -- and all of the artists need to hear -- that this is what we're looking for. I mean, this hits the -- this -- no pun intended, this hits the ballot, okay? So you know, unfortunately, it's with a group, you know, that -- 84 of other pieces, you know, because I have to say I'm going to support 3-B as well because I just think the history combined, you know, with this particular location, you know, it just has to be a coin. to make it a coin. We have So -- but that's the only reason. I think I really like number 4 for the artists who did this. You know, I think you're using the coin, you know, in a really nice way, focusing on the detail that really communicates clearly something that's important about this particular site. So I really think you hit the mark there. I feel the same way about 6. And even though I can't stand buildings on coins, you know, really, I mean, you did it. I mean, you did it with number 5, you did it with number 7, and you did it with number 8. You know, and there's buildings on coins, you know, that actually work. So a hard thing to do -- you did it. also like 11-A. It's great. I love -- you know, I I love that focus in 11-A on detail. coin -- I love the negative space, the left. Again, that's a I love what Ron would have done with this coin, you know, in the proofed version of it. This is just great. And you know -- and this artist needs to get a -- I'm putting -- for the first time ever, I think I've got -- I think my merit column is almost full, you know. And what can I say about 10? Owls. Give me the owls. (Laughter.) MR. URAM: We've got owls, lizards, turtles. So we can have them all this time. (Crosstalk.) 85 MR. SCARINCI: I mean, give me the owls, you know. You know, so, you know, please, I -- you know, and 10 -- and 12 is just politically incorrect. And you know, I don't know that it would have gotten the votes just for its political incorrect -- we would have had an insurrection. So fortunately, there's other coins. But I'm glad we saw it, and thank you for showing this to us and not eliminating it, you know, because we need to see it. incorrect, too. And we all know it's politically So we can make that decision, you know, as well. So anyway, I think, you know, again, I mean, I'm talking too much for something so simple because it's -- in my view, it's TB (ph). But I just had to say that for the artists listening, that you listened. You got it. This is the best group in the whole pile. So keep it up. Keep going. And we're going to produce award winners. MS. LANNIN: I have nothing left to say, obviously. 3-B was absolutely my favorite. I think it's really important that the cross be shown in its entirety. If we didn't have that whole Series 3, I think all of us would have been behind number 1, which is a glorious design. So I want to say that this group of designs really made me happy. It was wonderful to have the luxury of choosing so much great art. So thank you. MR. WEINMAN: Do you want to -- Mr. Chairman, do you want everybody to vote for 3-A -- 3, 3-A, and 3-B as a group by choosing 3 and then hash out -UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. WEINMAN: -- which ones? No. 86 MR. SCARINCI: No. (Crosstalk.) MR. SCARINCI: B. I think we're okay. I think we're all talking about 3- So I think we'll -- am I right? Anybody disagree? (Crosstalk.) UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I think we're going to make amendments on -MR. SCARINCI: We'll go with 3-B. And if anybody wants to talk about it after, we can talk about it afterwards, depending on how the results are going to turn out. Okay. next thing. This was easy. So let's go and move on to the They should all be this easy. The meeting will fly. A p r i l S t a f f o r d MS. STAFFORD: All right. MR. SCARINCI: Go ahead, please. MS. STAFFORD: We'll work on the Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness in Idaho. The Frank -- oh, sorry. Did you -- Yes, begin. The Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness is comprised of endless rugged mountains, deep canyons, and wild white water rivers. Few places in America and nowhere else outside of Alaska provide an experience to match the sheer magnitude of this vast wilderness, where the sense of remoteness is often heralded as one if its prevailing attributes. I'd like to note the template around the quarter designs that you will see, due to character limitations on the template, the Mint was not able to accommodate the full name of the 87 site. So we reviewed several possible abbreviations. And of those, the liaison identified the best option as being River of No Return to be featured on the template with the world wilderness preferably incorporated into the design. Our liaison, Cheri Ford, Deputy Forest Supervisor, joins us today by phone. Cheri, are you there? (No response.) MS. STAFFORD: So we have been having some problems hearing our liaison, even if they are onsite. So I would -- is Dennis? DENNIS: Yes. MS. FORD: DENNIS: Oh, I'm sorry. Middle Fork ranger district. MS. STAFFORD: MS. FORD: And Cheri, I heard you as well? Yes, sorry about that. MR. SCARINCI: word? Great. Okay. I am on the call. Wonderful. I'm on as well. Cheri, would you like to say a few We're going to be putting up your preferences. We are showing Design 4 as your first preference, and Design 3 was a secondary. And I believe you have comments on other as well, but we'll talk about those as we move through the portfolio. Would you like to say a few words about your site? C h e r i MS. FORD: Sure. F o r d I mean, gosh, you -- well, first of all, thank you, everybody, for your interest in the Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness. nature. It is truly an amazing wilderness area. It's massive in And to actually try to show it on a coin becomes kind of 88 difficult in how to really express that. And so of course we struggled in working with the District in (inaudible). summers (ph) out on the rivers. You know, there's There's summers on the upland and, you know, just trying to figure what best depicts this area. So yeah, and we hope that you appreciate our preferences. We do -- I must say the -- we have to run this by the governor's office, and so we'll see what the feedback is in that -- from that regard because I just wanted to be upfront that I have heard some concerns raised in regard to using a wolf on the quarters just because of some of the controversy in the past. But I also know that it came in as one of our favorites because it kind of depicted the naturalness of the river corridor and the Frank Church in general. So I guess that's it for me. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you, Cheri. And just so the Committee can be aware, our process is, of course, that we share this portfolio that you're seeing today with each of these states' governors' offices. And so their feedback will be incorporated and sent to the secretary of the Treasury for consideration as well. All right. Cheri. So we'll start with Design 1 and 1-A. wolf. Thank you, They both portray a Design 1-A has the additional text of "Wilderness." Design 2 features a pika in the foreground with a hiking trail carving a path around the Rocky Mountain slope. Design 3 portrays a drift boat, its pilot, and the rapids of a rocky river with high slopes and conifer trees in the background. Again, Design 3 is the second preference of the liaison, as it portrays the rushing river encompassed by the trees and rock formations of the wilderness. Design 4 features a pair of wolves preparing to cross a river. Behind them, trees grip the rocky 89 slope, and steep cliffs meet the river's edge. This is the design -- Design 4 is the liaison's preferred design at the moment due to the natural depiction of the wolves interacting with the river. And the river is shown as a life-giving force bordered by sage and pine trees. All right. And now we have Design 5-A. It focuses on tall conifers and a wolf against the star-filled sky. Design 6 showcases the vast scale of the wilderness as witnessed from the air, mountain peaks, and the Middle Fork Salmon River Canyon. Design 7 presents the vantage point of a hiker or a boat party in the might Salmon River Canyon. Design 8 and 8-A depicts recreational pursuits enjoyed in the expansive wilderness. Design 8 shows a lone rafter, while Design 8-A features a pack stream (ph). I should say Design 8 was noted by the liaison as a strong design due to the depiction of rafting on the river and the wilderness landscape. Design 9-A features a howling wolf. 10, (inaudible) depicts a gray wolf regarding the wilderness. Design 11 features two gray wolves gazing upon the wilderness. 12 shows a gray wolf observing the wilderness from a high vantage point while rafters ride the river. 13 and 13-A depict a woman reveling in the beauty of the Middle Forks landscape. Design 13 additionally features the inscription "Wilderness." Design 14 and 14-A depict a salmon in the river. Design 14-A additionally shows landscape viewable from the river. 14-A, I should not for the Committee, was identified by our liaison also as a strong design. Design 16 and 16-A depict a wooden dory traversing the river with canyon walls, treed slopes and mountains surrounding. in the foreground. Design 16-A features a dipper bird These designs also were identified by the liaison 90 as strong due to the dynamic depiction of the river. And finally, 17 and 17-A feature a wolf overlooking a river below the mountain slopes receding behind and the pack stream passing by. That concludes the designs. MR. SCARINCI: Okay. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: We are going to open this up with Jeanne. Thank you. I think that this is a very exciting portfolio, well, really for me because it's about nature and it's kind of fun. However, I do think we have some problems where there's too much information in the coin being small. I keep going back to Design number 2 of the pika. I think that's an unusual depiction of nature. So many times we have the wolves. These wolves are -- the number 4, for me, leave something to be desired. The foot that's trying to get into the water is well depicted. powerful, and they're skinny. The wolves are tall. And they're And I don't think that in any place we seem to have a wolf that says those things. And number 11 and number 12 and 9 and 10, these wolves are more husky-like. So I -- you see how short the legs are in number 12 and number 10. It's troublesome to me. I like number 6 with the plane that kind of gets lost in the mountains. And number 8, we have, really, kind of too much -- really too much in there. If we didn't have the boat, you know, it has some negative space on the bottom, maybe some interesting mountains in the gap. I'm not sure. I go to number 5-A, which is the simplest piece. This wolf is not great, but at least it's -- you know, it has a distinct characteristic of being surrounded by negative space. The trees are great. And I think we have in this one a lot of information for less. So I -- I'm looking that one, and I'm also looking at number 91 14. Idaho is, of course, known for its salmon and trout. I think this is an interesting look at the salmon below and above the water. I really like this one. So those two are the ones that I prefer. Thank you. MS. STAFFORD: May I interject something very quickly? MR. SCARINCI: Yes, please. MS. STAFFORD: And Cheri, please correct me if I'm wrong. The last time you spoke with liaisons, they were really desiring that we communicate that, while they appreciate all the designs in the portfolio, certainly the ones that feature a lone wolf, especially the howling figures, they really wanted -- they found us moving away from very strongly because they felt that that was -- it overly romanticized -- often very stereotypical and could be several places USA. So I just -- I want to – (Crosstalk.) MS. STAFFORD: -- I shared that. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yeah. Thank you. I agree with that. We have wolves on a lot of things, and these wolves are, like I said, more doglike. MR. SCARINCI: MR. TUCKER: Okay. Dennis. Thank you. I enjoyed going through the -- this group. There were some really neat designs here. I grew up in upstate New York not far from Canada, the Syracuse area. And I remember when I was a kid, you know, we would get Canadian coins in change. And it was really special to get one of the 1967 Confederation Centennial coins. 92 You had the rock dove on descent and the rabbit and the bobcat and the goose and the wolf. So those are always neat, you know, very bold designs, very simple. And what I saw in this group, 1 and 1-A, it reminded me of those. 1-A. And I know that there will be pushback on 1 and There's been discussion in the past that showing an animal face on that the coin will wear to resemble a pig. But I think our mint designers will be able to set the eyes and work with the nose and the ears and design a nice portrait of a wolf with some relief that will weather that kind of circulation. April, what you just said, what you shared from our liaisons, does make me rethink my initial thoughts a little bit. 1-A. But I do think that those are very strong designs, 1 and They're bold. They're strong. You know, kids will see this, and they'll start talking about the wolf quarter, and it will get them thinking about the River of No Return and this national wilderness. 1A is actually my preference because it does include the word "Wilderness," and I think that's important. Those are -- that's what I preferred in all of the designs, is those that include the word "Wilderness." And along those lines, I think that those that show human interaction with the landscape actually weak in that concept because we're talking about, in almost two and a half million acres of wilderness here, this site is not a river, although rivers are important to it. within it. It's big enough that there are four national forests So really -- and I think there's something like a million and a half acres that have no trails whatsoever, so we're really talking about wild territory. And for me, seeing airplanes and boats and other manmade things and humans kind of take away from that 93 message. My runner-ups after 1-A were 5-A, although we've seen the howling wolf in the Treaty With the Delawares Native American dollar recently, I like the perspective of the trees. And you get some of the constellation there. 9-A was another one that I liked. And again, I know that there are some sensitivities around the depiction of a wolf. And number 10 I liked because it's got a bit of drama to it, perhaps. Or there's just a -- there's an intangible feeling of wilderness with number 10. It's contemplative. And I'm a dog person. (Laughter.) MR. TUCKER: I know that dogs are not tame wolves. But you know, I think -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. TUCKER: It's -- yes, as Jeanne has pointed out, it's a very dog- like wolf, perhaps. some way. (inaudible - off mic). But you know, maybe that could be modified in I think that, again, it's a coin that kids would really - - it would appeal to kids. They'll see this, and they'll start looking for the pocket change for the wolf quarter if they see a coin like any of the ones that I've mentioned. 1-A, 5-A, 9-A, and 10 are my preferences. MR. SCARINCI: MR. HOGE: Bob. Thank you, Donald. I like Dennis's thoughts about these things, and I share a lot of them. I'm afraid, though, that number 1 and 1-A would really look -- it's pretty much like a Cub Scout badge. I mean, sure, the kids will recognize this, say, oh, look, there's the wolf badge. 94 (Laughter.) MS. LANNIN: MR. HOGE: But you know what? I think the most beautiful -- UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MS. LANNIN: MR. HOGE: They all pick it up. They all pick it up. They all pick it up. They all pick it up. Probably the most beautiful is 5-A, a little problem with the stylized-looking stars, all the little crosses in the sky. And maybe we want to stay away from the howling lone wolf, too. These are attractive designs. They're handsome. If we selected, oh, any one of the number of them, I think we would be doing well. Number 13 I would especially stay away from because this looks like a barefoot girl about to commit suicide. (Laughter.) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. HOGE: That's a point. You know, what's she doing barefoot up on a mountain ready to dive off into nowhere? This is definitely the River of No Return for her. (Laughter.) MR. HOGE: fisherman. I'm attracted by number 14 just because I like the -- I'm a I think that's a -- but I think it might be a little too busy, and one fish would probably do it. And having three little fishies, you know, the -- they don't -- any rate, so I think I would really tend to go with the liaison's preference in number 4. I think 95 it -- that my -- it's a little bit too busy. It's not really my taste, but I think it does the job and has a kind of a lonely wilderness feel to it. And I think the wolves maybe they could be improved. Maybe their legs could be lengthened and they could look a little bit more ferocious or skinny. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. HOGE: Skinny. But I think it's a nice design. Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: Thank you, Bob. I love it when Bob is funny. (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: The -- 1 and 2 are great coins. And you're right. Every kid would pick it up. Every kid would look at it. It is something that was – that Mongolia did something like it in 1987. And the wolf -- and the face on the wolf has been done before by Sierra Leone, I think, as well. So -- but it's still a nice coin. sole wolf image. It is the And if the -- if they're having issues with the elected officials with respect to wolves, a lone wolf looking at you from the back of a coin will definitely get them in trouble. So – and they'll have a statewide controversy over it -- so for that reason and only for that reason. But this is a great design. I bet you – I mean, several of these designs seem to have come from Emily Bamstra (ph), and she does amazing animals. And this is absolutely great work that's in this group. You know, I can see the appeal. I mean, I wouldn't go with 3. I can see the-- I could see the appeal for 4. like 5, and I like 5 as – you know, I like it as part. I do I like the way -- the trees and the wolf. You know, so again, the artists are 96 listening to us. a vote from me. You know, this is definitely going to get, you know, I think it's a great piece. You know, back in my -- back in the days when I wasn't the chair and we talk about the wolf eating the stars, you know, but I'm not going to say that since I'm a chair. MR. HOGE: You just did. (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: So the one I -- I mean, she's -- you know, the woman in 13-A is kind of -- you know, I'll tell you what I like about it -- and it's only thing that I like about it. I don't like it. But what I like what the artist did is the way the artist played with the rim. And you know, that's our standard rim for these coins for the series. You know, it's raised a little bit. So if you remember from the prototypes and from the coin series, it's all -- it's our standard rim. And this artist played with that rim. know, bonus points. So the artist gets, you And I'm going to give the merit, but I'm giving the merit just because the artist, you know, really used the rim nicely. scene. It almost looks like, you know, this person is viewing the And you know -- and I think the expression is to be, oh, wow, isn't this great as opposed to, oh, wow, my life is terrible and I'm just going to jump, right? But I think -- (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: But I think I like what the artist did here. artist, you know, they should be encouraged. And the And I assume this was the same artist. I'm going to presume this was the same artist who did 97 that Hawaii state coin with the surfboard that we rejected, I think, gratefully. But you know, anyhow -- but anyway, I totally love 14. And I know, you know -- this is just the coolest coin. anything like it anywhere else. We don't have I think it's very -- I love -- you know, Canada does some of this, and I guarantee this is Emily. would be shocked if it's not. But I love the way the fish -- I love the way you have the above and the below water. have the salmon thing. coin. But it's I And you know, you It's -- it definitely can easily be a Canada just cool. It's very different for us here in America, you know, and I think it would make a great coin. And so I'm definitely going to give this a vote. And I'd be remiss if I didn't give a special A for cuteness to number 10. just cute wolves. I think these wolves are And you know, I'm not sure that wolves don't get a bad reputation the way sharks get a bad reputation, like, not -- lone wolves are evil maybe, you know. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. SCARINCI: Cute, too cute. It's too cute? It is too cute, but it's adorable. It is adorable, a really cute expression on the wolf. So I also like 9-A. I like 11. So I like a lot of these. I don't particularly care for the boat -- the people in the boats. I think that's just a little too busy. So in any event, I don't want -- I want to listen to what the others say, you know, about the animals. 14. But I'm tempted to go with I could easily be tempted to go with one of the wolves. And if there's a lot of sentiment for the facing wolf, Mongolia be damned. We're America. 98 MS. LANNIN: All right. with wilderness. I have to say that I love the facing wolf Everybody -- there's no one that wouldn't pick up that coin if it was put in front of them. it is. You just need to see what I don't know what the political ramifications of that are. I'm originally from Minnesota, and wolves were protected for a very long time. You look at that, and it says River of No Return. If you met that face, that's really a possibility. (Laughter.) MS. LANNIN: I think it's sensitively drawn I think that there's menace, but it's also like this is mine. What are you doing here? So it gives you the whole idea of wilderness. I know nothing about fishing except what shows up on a plate in a restaurant, but I do like number 14. I prefer not to have it as busy as 14-A, you know, with the river behind it. I mean, who are we kidding? It's water. Fish are in water. I also like -- I sort of like my default one would be 5-A because I think -- I just -- and that's really a very pretty coin. But I keep looking at 1-A. And yeah, that looks at me. I back up. I really think it does -- that would make a great, great coin. That's it. MR. SCARINCI: MR. URAM: Okay. Tom. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I've been reviewing the designs here with the quarters from my Red Book published by Whitman Publishing Company. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. URAM: Yes. I just thought I'd get that in there, keep my discount. 99 (Laughter.) MR. URAM: And I -- you know, I would be all in on 1 and 1-A if it was a half dollar or a dollar. across as being I just don't know that it's going to come the wolf when it's all said and done. And I think Heidi will probably echo some more opinions on that from the sculpt side. But the wilderness series that Canada did that Don referenced as well, they actually did the wolf, and it was oblong. It's an oblong, and the whole face goes out that way -- spectacular, but once again, it was kind -- because of the palette and the type of planchette that it was on. Keeping this short, you know, the howling wolf, I think if the governor's concerned about wolves in regards to the meanness of them, boy, I'll tell you what. You're going to really attempt him if you give him the howling wolf with the moon and the stars over here. I just -- I don't know. But I lean towards number 4 simply because the depiction of these wolves is a little bit more real -- the nose, the snout, much more proportioned. Jeanne's right. The leg - - once again, I think Those legs need to be changed. I think the back legs are super, but the front -- when you look at the front, they're much wider. And so there's some small stuff there. But I would definitely stay away from -- it's the River of No Return Wilderness. And the wilderness they were -- the stakeholder, Cheri, mentioned the importance of wilderness being on the coin. I think that defines this particular park, in particular. Using more boats and more rivers and airplanes and different things I don't think will define it as accurately as it can be since they have this as part of it. The only other one that I did look at was when I looked at the wolf -- but I'm 100 just saying that the consideration of -- in voting was 10 and 11. And I probably like 11 better than 10 because, you know, you think of wolves being in a pack. And therefore, you consider having them together there, that there would be more than just two. And certainly, a lone wolf on number 10 just struck me that way. So my votes are going to go for number 4 and number 11. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. SCARINCI: Next. Go ahead, Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you. This is a very nice packet. There's many things that I think are really lovely. Points to number 2 for originality for putting a pika on there. I agree whole-heartedly with what Dennis said about having the human element in here contradicts the idea of wilderness. really And we heard the state park express their desire to represent the wilderness and the vastness of this. So we run into this problem with a lot of our parks trying to depict great landscapes, and we see the challenges of that. And we have many coins already that show the scenery and what we call the postcard on a coin. But one of these designs solves that problem in a really creative way. So I want to make a pitch for Design 5-A. don't have to show the river because river is in the name. already there. We It's So this implies the river already. I understand that the howling wolf is an image that's been used before. The reason it works in this particular design is because it echoes the shape of the trees. It shows the harmony between the animals and the forest. Also, because we've asked our artists to give us different perspectives and points of view, this is a creative way to look at the wilderness that 101 we haven't seen in the other coins. So it's going to stand apart from the whole group of quarters in this unique perspective. And because we're looking up and the angle of the trees, that is what represents the vastness without having to have a postcard on a coin. more vast than stars and universe? says wilderness. And what is This design says vastness. It It says both the flora and fauna both, and it's unique when they look at the state quarters as a whole body of work. So that's why this design really works for me. Also, I look at the negative space, which is the area that will be polished on those coins that are polished and how that defines the edges of the image. And this is really going to have a lot of contrast. It's going to pop. It's going to work really well because of that negative space. If we take, for example, Design number 4, the negative space here doesn't define the images. are not defined. It doesn't go around the wolves. So the wolves And that -- the texture of the rocks behind next to the texture of the fir, it's going to get very lost in the final product. river. And it's very literal. We have a mountain. We have a It doesn't say vastness the way looking up through the trees says vastness. I was also drawn to Design 10, the cuteness factor, as Donald said. the distance. It's just beautifully drawn, and you do see landscape in So it has the vastness factor. The sky has a sense of vastness and just really beautifully drawn. I am still preferring 5-A for the reasons that I stated. Design number 11, I understand the comradery of the two wolves is really desirable, but I think now we're getting too much onto a size of a quarter. If for some reason the subject of a wolf is just off the table -- and I hope it's not -- I 102 could be swayed toward Design 14. I would prefer a fish over more people if we had to go that direction. But my strong preference is for Design 5-A. MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: Okay. Thank you. Erik. I've been to this wilderness several times. portions of it. I've hiked portions of it. I've rafted And when you're there, what you take away differentially from other wilderness experiences, what you take away are the depth and the angularity of the valleys, how the water occupies the only place that you really can go because it's almost impossible to hike it because there's so much verticality. And you're up and you're down, and you're up and you're down. You're never flat. And so what you walk away with are the water environment and the very deep, thousands of feet deep, angularity of the mountains. Having said that, a wolf's a wonderful image. But solely a wolf as in Designs 1 and 1-A would be leaving so much off the table. It -- yeah, it's a very attractive design if you want to really have somebody make sure they pick it up if they see it. mission here. But that's not our Our mission here is to put some imagery up here which conjures up the emotions of being. And so I move on. Unfortunately, I have to pass up number 3 because I think the bough of a dory is probably really not what we want to do here. 4 -- I'll probably give some support to 4 because it's the generic fallback here. curvature of the tree is nice layout. correct. The But Heidi's comments are I think the sculpture is going to have to really demote the background in order to give the wolves their priority here. And I just don't end up thinking that's going to happen. So I'm going to 103 also support 5, and it'll probably get a 3 from me. get 2s. asked. And the reasons are really pretty simple. It has symbolics. The others may It has what we It has eye candy power because of the perspective and the layout. It will be beautiful in a proof because of the very nicely base in a negative space basing (ph). From a visual perspective, the proof will be beautiful -- I love the stars -because when you go there, what you realize is this isn't like walking or living on flat land. You have two things. rocks around you, and you have the sky. water. You have trees and And you have the sound of And this thing gives me much of that. Number 8 is the iconic picture, but I think featuring the people -- people are visitors here. They're not what's there. It's probably a mistake. Design number 13, boy, you know, you want to have joy here. outstretched arms. It's playful. You want to have the But the trouble is the artist, I think, in order to accommodate those rafts, really kind of messed up the visual balance of the design, and so it kind of doesn't work. I'll probably support salmon. I much prefer 14 over 14-A just because I can get negative space in 14, which works. Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: MR. MORAN: Okay. Mike. I struggle with this one simply because I think there's several that are really good. I don't see how we can actually get on a quarter the face of the wolf in 1 and 1-A with a muzzle properly emphasized. Heidi (inaudible) this once before on the Kentucky quarter, and I get it. it's my bad. And if I make the mistake the second time, 104 (Laughter.) MR. MORAN: I really don't -- I -- you can see the separation there with the lining and the pencil and the shading. That's not going to be there in the quarter. I understand the support for 4, but we've already talked about it. There's no negative space around the wolves. It would be hard to pick out on a coin. 5 I actually struggle with because I've heard wolves howl. don't hear just one. I heard them in Yellowstone. They talk to each other. You But we're in to allegory here, and one's enough. I am troubled by the design of the wolf's neck. Just it doesn't look right. And I hope that if we choose this one the Mint will fix it. I don't like any of the ones with people on them for reason that have already been stated. And that gets me down to number 14 on the fish. one. It's clean; it's simple. I think that's an excellent It's an alternative to the wolf if there's an issue with wolves on a quarter. 14-A is an example of an artist gone crazy trying to screw up the background on its (ph) design. So I'm going -- probably going to vote for 5-A and -MS. WASTWEET: It's on her design. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. MORAN: Her -- oh, their design. MS. WASTWEET: MR. VIOLA: Her design. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. For me, this has just been a wonderful experience. For 20 years, I've made a horseback trip over the Idaho wilderness. And all these drawings just bring back wonderful memories. And you know, let's face it. When you're sleeping at night 105 around a campfire and you hear that wolf howling, it is just enough to, you know, tingle your spine. And then when you're out there, the stars just pop out at you because there's no other ambient light for 100 miles. So those -- so that 5-A really rings to me. But the thing about the wolf and the political concern, you're aware that the political problem is that wolves kill deer, moose, and other animals. And Idaho depends a lot on big game hunters coming in, and so they really don't want to see a lot of wolves. I've been on the trail with -- (inaudible) was saying, boy, I wish I could go over and shoot that wolf that's howling down there. So that's what you're up against. So I think, you know, everyone here is saying the right thing. This is a wonderful experience, and the coin ought to reach out to you. think 5-A works. well fed. And so the wolves look a little fat. So I Well, they're They have a lot of animals there to hunt, you know. (Laughter.) MR. VIOLA: And so that's why that (inaudible) wasn't shot. (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: Okay. Thank you. Everybody vote. That's great. That's great. Thank you. And while everybody's voting, we're going to start and listen to April talk about the Congressional Gold Medal. MR. WEINMAN: MR. SCARINCI: MR. WEINMAN: MR. SCARINCI: Do you want to start with the results? No, let's do the Congressional Gold Medal – Okay --- and get it over with -- 106 MR. WEINMAN: MR. SCARINCI: Okay. -- because that should be less than five minutes. A p r i l MS. STAFFORD: Okay. S t a f f o r d Public Law 114-269 authorizes the presentation of a single Congressional Gold Medal to the members of the Office of Strategic Services, known as the OSS, in recognition of their superior service and major contributions during World War II. OSS was America's first effort to implement a system of strategic intelligence during World War II and provide -- and provided the basis for the modern day American intelligence and special operations communities. The CIA, Navy Seals, the Army Special Forces, and the Air Force Special Operations Command can all trace their lineage back to the OSS. As you'll recall, the portfolio designs for the OSS Congressional Gold Medal was presented to the CFA and this Committee in June. The liaison listened carefully to the comments of both committees, and his opinions on how to best represent the OSS and its legacy changed considerably based upon that discussion. Additionally during the meeting, we were made aware of accuracy concerns. So we took the opportunity to make changes to the designs based on the commentary from the committees, the repositioned preferences of the liaison, and all designs were reviewed by additional experts again to ensure historical and technical accuracy. We are returning to the committees with a reduced and revised portfolio for review and comment. The liaison's preference as well as the CFA's and CCAC's previously recommended are indicated. So we'll start by -- while we're waiting 107 for the presentation to come up, I will refer the Committee members to their contact sheets. current preference. Design 1, that is Obverse 1, is our liaison's And Reverse 3 is our liaison's current preferred reverse design. And I'd like to invite Mr. Charles Pinck, our liaison from the OSS to the OSS Society, to say a few words. C h a r l e s MR. PINCK: Thank you, April. P i n c k It's an honor to be back in front of this Committee. As April said, when we came to the last meeting -- I guess it was in June -- we had a fairly good idea of what we wanted. But hearing all the comments you made, we kind of went back to the drawing board and realized we had to come up with a better design. The challenge that I think we face is trying to graphically represent an organization as complex as the OSS on a three-and-a-half-inch medal and to encompass as many of its components as best we can. And I think the two designs that we favor do that. I really do, bearing in mind that there's still elements of it that we couldn't probably get on there. But you'll see when the graphic design comes up that we've tried to represent all the personnel who served in the OSS. And then by putting the names of the operations on the back of the coin -- on the medal, I'm sorry -- we've represented I think every major branch of the OSS. Some of it's more heroic. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. PINCK: So -- okay. It's successful missions. (inaudible – off mic). So 01, the one on the left, the cover, obviously, it has the letters OSS on it. It looks very similar to our insignia, which is important to us. The chairwoman I know at our 108 meeting in June made a reference to the medal being art. So that made us think, okay, we need to really graphically represent this in a powerful way because what we're trying to do is really capture the secrecy of the OSS and the work it did. So on the left behind the letter O, you see the silhouette of a woman. 4,500 women who served in OSS. And that represents the About 900 of them were overseas. the middle, you see someone in a parachute, the OSS. In Although it was a civilian organization, it drew its personnel from every branch in the military. So that figure is meant to represent the people from the military who served in the OSS and all the – and also the people who went behind enemy lines, as many did. And then on the right you have a figure of a man, obviously, who represents all the other civilians who served in the OSS in some capacity. At the bottom, you have the dates it was in existence -- 1942 to 1945. So I think that's a kind of very powerful, meaningful, and beautiful way to represent what the OSS was. On the right is the reverse side. You see the OSS spearhead, the spearhead being its unofficial insignia, which today is used by CIA and by the U.S. Special Operations Command. General Donovan, who founded the OSS, chose the spearhead because he wanted the OSS to be the tip of the spear, which it was. In the very middle of it, you have the number 109. That was General Donovan's codename. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. PINCK: Oh. So he was -- he built this organization himself. So that was also his office number. The headquarters were up on Navy Hill, the Old Naval Observatory. The buildings on the opposite side that face the Kennedy Center were the first – they were the OSS at first. 109 CIA Headquarters will be at a ceremony there in June to commemorate the 75th anniversary of the OSS's founding, and we were also successful in having those buildings added to the National Register of Historic Places. So -- and it's great that this is happening during the 75th anniversary of the OSS's founding. It really is. At the top, you see partially scribed (ph) the code word AZUSA. One OSS operation was designed to determine how close the Germans were to building an atomic bomb. And I'm sure many of you have heard of Moe Berg, a legendary OSS officer who also played professional baseball. MS. LANNIN: MR. PINCK: Yeah, yeah. He was part of that mission. He was sent to Europe to find out how close Heisenberg was to building an atomic bomb. There's actually a major motion picture that's just been filmed about Moe Berg. It's going to be coming out next year. So the timing of the coin and the movie is serendipitous. Operation Sunrise was the -- they -- that was the codename for the secret negotiations that led to the surrender of German forces in Northern Italy that hastened the war's end and saved, I'm told, thousands of lives. The acronym EOU, that stands for the Enemy Objectives Unit. Most important -- one of the most important parts of OSS was its Research and Analysis Branch, its analytical component. It was kind of the heart of the OSS. Everything went in it and out of it. It was transferred to the State Department at the end of the war. But the Enemy Objectives Unit played an instrumental role in selecting targets for the military during World War II. Operation Carpetbagger -- that was the air arm in the OSS, predecessor to the Air Force Special Operations Command. It 110 was part of the Eighth Air Force, and they flew specially equipped B24 Liberators behind enemy lines, often alone without any protection, delivering OSS agents and supplies to them. Cuthbert -- many of you might have heard of Virginia Hall. She's the only civilian woman during World War II who received a Distinguished Service Cross. She lost part of her leg in a hunting accident. And at one point, she had to flee France because the Nazis were chasing her. marched out of the Pyrenees Mountains. winter. And she actually And her -- it was in the You can imagine. So she radioed back to Headquarters to report that Cuthbert, which was the codename for her prosthetic leg, was bothering her. And the response she got was that if Cuthbert is bothering you, eliminate him. (Laughter.) MR. PINCK: Peedee -- one of the most interesting elements of OSS were the operational groups. They were predecessors to the U.S. Army Special Forces, the Green Berets. mission. Peedee was the name of an OG And I believe it was in Chano (ph), Italy. It was the only instance in World War II where Germans -- German army surrendered to regular forces. So that's very important. JE is the acronym. It stands for Joan-Eleanor, which was a very innovative communications device invented by OSS. Mercury Eagle is one of the most heroic missions of the OSS. Its intent was to try to destroy the Brenner Pass, which was a critical pathway between Italy and Germany. Operation Sussex was an operation that actually took part -- took place before (inaudible) sent teams into France -- French, British, and Americans to gather intelligence in advance of that invasion. 111 Operation Dupont on the right there was led by Navy Lieutenant Jack Taylor, who's widely regarded as the first Navy Seal. into Austria. The deepens He was actually captured and tortured at Mauthausen but survived. Team Hugh: another element of the OSS were the Jedburghs. These were three-man teams who parachuted in primarily to France and other areas after D-Day. Team Hugh was the first team that went in on D-Day on the morning of June 6, 1944. Operation Greenup, another very heroic mission. You've all, I'm sure, familiar with Quentin Tarantino's film Inglourious Basterds. Well, Fred Mayer, who passed away about a year ago at age 100 (ph), was the inspiration for this mission. He was sort of referred to as the real Inglourious Basterd. He was a Jewish refugee from Nazi Germany who joined the OSS and parachuted back in with two other men. Dragoman was a very successful counterintelligence operation run by the OSS's X-2 component, its counterintelligence branch, which one member said it -- said the work he did was so secret even he didn't know what he was doing. (Laughter.) MR. PINCK: Operation Halyard is widely egarded as the most successful rescue mission of World War II. They rescued 500 downed airmen from behind enemy lines. Sauerkraut was an MO, Morale Operations, mission. Morale Operations today we refer to as psychological operations. Union's another mission into France, Union 1 and Union 2. One of its members was Pierre Ortiz, who's one of the most highly decorated members of the OSS. He received two Navy Crosses. There's a great story about him that he was in some bar in France. There were some German -- some Nazis there, and they were saluting, you know, various 112 things. And they were cursing the Marine Corps, and he couldn't under -- figure that out. back in his uniform. Like, how do they even know about us? So he came And at gunpoint, he made the Nazis salute FDR and the Marine Corps, and then he vanished. Penny Farthing was an intelligence-gathering operation before the invasion of Southern France Operation Dragoon, which was widely attributed to be so successful because of the intelligence that the OSS gathered. They knew where everything was. Rype was a sabotage mission into Norway that was led by Major William Colby, who went on to lead the CIA. At the end of the war, U.S. Government was concerned that the Japanese would murder thousands of allied prisoners of war that were being held. So they launched what were called mercy missions. Operation Cardinal was one of those mercy missions that was sent into Manchuria. George Wood is said to be the greatest U.S. asset of the war. a member of the German Foreign Ministry named Fritz Kolbe. provided us unbelievably good intelligence. He was He In fact, it was so good they didn't believe it was real, but it was. And then Melanie was an intelligence-gathering operation in the Netherlands. So again, I think we've really -- one of the thing -- I mean, to me, this design not only communicates some very literal elements of the OSS, but I think it also captures kind of the mystery, the secrecy in a powerful and meaningful way. I was thinking recently there was a component-little-known component in the OSS called the Visual Presentation Branch. No one's ever heard of it. But it employed some of the great architects like Eero Saarinen and Louis Kahn; graphic designers like Oliver Lundquist and Donal McLaughlin and George Olden (ph); artists 113 like Saul Steinberg; landscape architects like Dan Kiley and others. And I was thinking, although they're not sort of graphically represented here, this design, in a sense, is probably a tribute to the skills that they contributed to the OSS. So thank you very much. (Crosstalk.) MR. SCARINCI: MR. PINCK: Sure. MR. SCARINCI: MR. PINCK: -- of you? In Reverse 3 -- Yep. MR. SCARINCI: MR. PINCK: Can I just ask one question -- -- in Reverse 3 -- Yep. MR. SCARINCI: -- if we -- like, if we -- if - because countless numismatists will be studying this and trying to figure out if there's some code here. MR. PINCK: I -- MR. SCARINCI: MR. PINCK: So for purposes of due diligence -- Yeah, yes. MR. SCARINCI: -- for the record, can I just ask you -- are you -- do you have any -- are you aware of any code -MR. PINCK: No. MR. SCARINCI: MR. PINCK: -- that's hidden in this -- But it occurred to me to hide one, I mean. 114 MR. SCARINCI: Okay. (Laughter.) MR. PINCK: There is no code in there, but that's – MR. SCARINCI: MR. PINCK: Yeah. MR. SCARINCI: MR. PINCK: Yeah. You have to ask. Oh, I was actually -- no, I was actually going to think of a way to do that maybe with letters around the edge of it, but -MR. SCARINCI: MR. KING: -- I didn't do it. MR. SCARINCI: MR. PINCK: Okay. And again -- yeah. MR. SCARINCI: this way. I know. So I mean, I'm going to do it -- I'm going to do this I mean, this – to me, this is probably the most remarkable Congressional Gold Medal that we're going to vote on in, like, years. This is a beautiful work of art. You've done an amazing job. You know, this is, to me, a no-brainer. But if anybody feels they want to talk about another design that they prefer, why don't we do it that way instead of going around the table. If there's something other than this that you like in this group, please speak. MR. HOGE: (inaudible - off mic). If not – 115 MR. SCARINCI: Yes, Bob Hoge, you can please speak because, if not, I'm probably just going to call for a vote by acclimation. Go ahead, Bob. MR. HOGE: I like these designs quite a lot. I think, undoubtedly, it's going to be the most intellectual than most that we will come up with. Some of the other designs are quite attractive and well served, also. But we have an organization here that is so secretive that it does not identify what country issues it or anything else that relates to the United States except for this word OSS – UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. HOGE: Yep. Yep. -- which is a mystery in itself. I think we need to think about this a little bit because are they going to put edge lettering saying United States of America around the periphery on the edge? it going to say Liberty anywhere? Is Is it going to have the year of issue, 2017? MR. WEINMAN: MR. SCARINCI: It's a medal. It's a medal. And it doesn't that add to the coolness of the medal? MR. HOGE: Well, but even so, it's a Congressional Medal. And don't they always have the year of issue or something like that -MS. STAFFORD: MR. HOGE: Act of Congress -- -- or name the country of issue? MS. STAFFORD: Act of Congress and the year -- 116 MR. HOGE: It doesn't -- it's not required? MS. STAFFORD: -- can be -- it's not required, but that would be a discussion point for the Committee after -(Crosstalk.) MR. WEINMAN: We have done other Congressional Gold Medals that didn't have Act of Congress in the -MS. STAFFORD: MR. HOGE: Yeah. Do they not say anything about what country issues them? MR. WEINMAN: That's correct. Very few, if any, of our Congressional Gold Medals say United States on them. MR. SCARINCI: They say Act of Congress sometimes, but -- (Crosstalk.) MR. HOGE: -- say something that relates to U.S. Government. MR. SCARINCI: Sometimes but not all the time. And if we did do it, we could possibly put it on the edge. I wouldn't want to ruin the design. MR. HOGE: No, no. I mean, just -- (Crosstalk.) MR. HOGE: I'm just curious about this because -- MR. SCARINCI: I mean, if we could put it on the edge -- we can't. Okay. Yes, Erik. MR. JANSEN: When I looked at this on the obverse -- assuming we're talking about an Obverse 1, Reverse 3 link up here -- I looked at 117 Design number 1, and I thought to myself DSS, I don't get it. And so my thought might be somehow I think we have to give the observer a bit of a clue and maybe bring the perimeter of those letters onto the bleed-off just to prevent that. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. PINCK: Good point. Yeah. I've heard that, too, before, and I'm wearing my hat (ph) around -MR. JANSEN: Oh, yeah? MR. PINCK: -- occasionally, yes -- MR. JANSEN: Well, maybe DSS works. MR. PINCK: -- Social Service is. MR. JANSEN: Exactly. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. JANSEN: Right. Exactly. (Crosstalk.) MR. JANSEN: MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: MR. SCARINCI: Maybe it'll work. I don't know. Delineate -Maybe that's the code. Okay. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Jeanne? Okay. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I want to thank our liaison, Mr. Pinck -Turn your microphone. 118 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Can't hear you. I'd like to thank Mr. Pinck for your explanation of what this is about, the reverse. I think when we saw something similar to it last time I didn't understand any of this. But your explanation was so powerful and I think leads to people really wanting this and learning more about the OSS. So thank you very much. MR. SCARINCI: WASTWEET: Yes, this is cool factor. Anyone else? Heidi? MS. I just want to add my thanks to the efforts that you put in to not settling and going back and making sure that this is so thoroughly thought out. And I love the fact that it's so mysterious. It is absolutely embodied, intrigue, and mystery. Yes, congratulations. MR. SCARINCI: Anyone else? (No response.) Okay. Well, so then the only real suggestion we want to make is to clarify the O, make sure that it looks more like an O on the obverse. MR. JANSEN: outline. And that's – and other than that, so – Give me -- yeah, give – just give me a hint of the I would still argue bleed it off. Leave that last 1 percent off, but give me the hint of the inner outline on the O. MR. SCARINCI: MR. URAM: And it's … So let's adopt -- so -- The 11 -- excuse me. The 11:00 o'clock can come down maybe fine -- I don't think there's any problem with 7:00 o'clock. of settles itself. It kind 119 MR. JANSEN: Well, you decide what the balance and appropriate treatment is. But … (Crosstalk.) MR. SCARINCI: MR. PINCK: I have one question, actually -- MR. SCARINCI: MR. PINCK: So how about -- Go ahead. -- if you don't mind. The edges around -- sorry -- well, the edge of the reverse side, you see some of the letters are kind of fading, cut off. - okay. Is that an issue at all? I'm just curious for any - I mean in terms of legibility or -- no? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. PINCK: Okay. MR. SCARINCI: It's all good. No. Nope. Cool, cool, cool. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: Very cool. So be it resolved that the Committee unanimously approves, or the Committee approves, Obverse 1, Reverse 3. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. SCARINCI: We're doing that. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. SCARINCI: We need a motion on the vote. Oh -- I'm making a motion and – or I'm offering the motion to somebody to make because I'm the chairman. And subject to making it clear that the O on the obverse is an O and not a D and giving the mint artist license to do that. 120 MS. LANNIN: I will make that motion for you. MR. SCARINCI: Mary makes the motion. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. SCARINCI: ALL: I will second. Jeanne seconds the motion. All those in favor? Aye. MR. SCARINCI: MR. HOGE: Unanimous or not? Abstain. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: Okay. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: One abstention, Bob Hoge. Okay. Thank you. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Very cool. (Applause.) (Crosstalk.) MR. SCARINCI: We are not done, all right? We're getting -- we may have some time, but we're not done because we got -- we had the fire alarm. MR. WEINMAN: If you pull up the ATB (ph), the conclusions (ph)? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: (Crosstalk.) I don't have ATB. 121 MR. SCARINCI: He's handing us pens. So we're all members of the secret society, the coolest Congressional, although -(Crosstalk.) MR. WEINMAN: Okay. Are we ready for results? Okay. Lowell, if you want to go to the contact sheet. 1, 1-A got zero votes. Design 2 got zero. 11 votes, with 5 being 0, 6 being 0. Beginning with There we go. Design 3 got zero. Design 4 got 7 got one vote. 8 got four. 10, 11, 12 together 18 votes, and that is the one with the most votes, followed by 13, which got 1 vote; 14, which got 3 votes; 15, which got 12 votes. So we -- that would be 15 -- 16. And then finally, 17, 17-A got 11 votes. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. WEINMAN: What did 16 get? 16, well, it was 12 votes for 15 and 16. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. WEINMAN: I'm sorry. Oh, combined. Combined. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah. Okay. And sorry. 17, say it again. MR. WEINMAN: Eleven votes. votes is the 10, 11, 12. So once again, the one with the most And so I'll leave that for you to decide what your recommendation is between 10, 11, 12. By the way, you have 10 numbers present. That's a maximum of 30 votes. Therefore, your magic number to make the recommendation is, arguably, 15 or 16, and you have that. 122 MR. SCARINCI: 11, and 12. So why don't we discuss and is-- and take a vote on 10, So let's --instead of going around the room again -- MR. WEINMAN: MR. SCARINCI: Would be a motion? -- you know, let's see. Let's take a show of hands, I guess, for a preference between 10, 11, and 12. And then if we need to have a further discussion, we discuss it. First of all, let's see a show of hands for number 10. MR. WEINMAN: MR. SCARINCI: Okay. The record will reflect zero. Zero. Let's see a show of hands for number 11. likes number 11? Okay. five, six. Who likes number 10? Who The record will reflect one, two, three, four, 11 equals 6. Number 12, who likes number 12? And the record reflects number one -- one hand (ph).So 11 looks like the selection. Are there any comments? MR. MORAN: Donald, the buckets on the waterwheel are wrong on 11. you look at number 10, they got them right. The scoops are headed the wrong direction. MR. SCARINCI: So the scoops on the wheel are headed in the wrong direction. MR. MORAN: Yes. MR. SCARINCI: MR. BYERS: So -- The liaison will concur. MS. STAFFORD: Yes, it -- MR. SCARINCI: Yes, please. Yes, sir. If 123 BY BYERS: direction. Yeah, we concur to those either angled in the wrong That wheel is set up as a rest (ph) wheel. at mid-height and then drops down. The water is So those buckets should be angled in the opposite direction -MR. MORAN: That's my Purdue engineering degree at work. (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: So we would make it subject to correcting the buckets on the … MR. BYERS: Yeah, just in addition, but it seems like it reflects the Committee's thoughts. But on the choice of 10, 11, or 12, we would concur and 11 being the best choice. One of the reasons I think is that the whole system that creates the textiles from the waterpower to the machinery is represented there in a nice sort of flowing manner. You get a sense of the sequence from the waterpower through the flow of the material and the shuttle at the end. You don't quite get that same sequential feel in the design in number 10. MR. SCARINCI: Okay. All right. someone to move and second. So I'll offer a resolution for And the resolution will be resolved that the CCA adopts Design number 11, subject to the correct – correcting the direction of the buckets on the wheel. MR. MORAN: MR. URAM: So move. Second. MR. SCARINCI: resolved. Okay. Moved by Mike and seconded by Tom. Congratulations. So it's 124 MR. WEINMAN: MR. SCARINCI: MR. WEINMAN: We move on to -Move on. Move on to American Memorial Park. tell you right now. In this case, I'll No design got more than the 15 -- the 16 votes. That doesn't mean you couldn't make a recommendation by motion, should it become necessary. Design number 1 was, in fact, highest vote getter with 14, so very close -- 14 votes for Design number 1. Design number 2 had zero. Design number 3 had 10. Design number 4 had six. Design number 5 had three. That's 5, 6 -- 5, 5-A and three votes. 6, 6-A also had 10 votes. And 7 had seven votes, and 8 had eight votes. MR. SCARINCI: MR. WEINMAN: So the two highest were -Actually, technically, the three-highest ones. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. WEINMAN: votes. Three highest. The highest one, vote getter, was number 1 with 14 And then Design number 3 had 10. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. WEINMAN: What did 8 have? 8 had eight. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. WEINMAN: Design number 6, 6-a had 10. Eight. So you could -- at this point, somebody could make a motion to make a recommendation based on that information or otherwise. MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: Mr. Jansen. Erik, please. I would like to make a motion to adopt Design number 3. And the thinking is this. I certainly appreciate the sentimentality 125 that was put forth on Design number 1 but, at the same time, respecting the opinion of the opinion of the sculptor of other opinions in the room. and the number I don't think the sentimentality will be effectively carried forth in a -- in the actual coinage onto the palette. I like the idea. I just don't think the nationalities involved will carry the day in a quarter- size palette. I don't think the complex background and foreground, engraving issues will carry forth the idea. The flags are dysfunctional. distracting. The stairway is The altar is unnecessary. I love the sentimentality, but I think Design number 3 is a much more effective net product. That will be my motion -(Crosstalk.) MR. JANSEN: MR. SCARINCI: -- number 3. So there's a point of information, I guess, which supersedes a motion, and that would be -- the point of information is that the - - technically, the Committee has not made a recommendation. And in situations like that in the past, what we do is give the secretary of the Treasury the top three vote-getters and let him know what – one got 14, one got 10, and one got 10. And then, essentially, with -- since none of them have a majority, we have no recommendation that these are the top three and then just leave it at that. That's one option that we could use. Another option we could use is to now proceed to this set of motions. I'm sure we're going to have a motion on each one of these because there were enough votes on all three to warrant a motion. And I know there's some caution for number 1 as 126 well. So that's my point of information, and that's the only thing appropriate to say before -- you can only make a point of information to supersede a – you know, a motion that's on the floor before it's seconded. So Erik's got the motion on the floor. information. Erik's motion awaits a second. Mine was a point of A second will then cause conversation and a vote. So is there a second on Erik's motion to have conversation on it? MR. HOGE: A second anywhere? Second. MR. SCARINCI: There's a second by Bob. Okay. on Erik's motion. We now have discussion So let's have a discussion on Erik's motion. Who will -- Tom. MR. URAM: Since all three were so close -- and I think I voted for all three of them, anyhow -- but I would prefer to just let the secretary – present all three to the secretary and the decision from there. So I would probably be voting against the recommendation of number 3. MR. SCARINCI: Okay. And then if we vote against the motion, there will be another motion. So - - and you'll get a motion. Next. Jeanne -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. SCARINCI: I just think we should call for the question. You do or do you want to go right to the vote? Okay. There's a call for the question. All those in favor of Erik's motion raise their hand. Erik raises his hand. Do we have to? All those against? Okay. Motion now --motion fails. The next -- 127 MR. JANSEN: I don't have a motion, but I've got a question for -- MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: Go right ahead. (inaudible - off mic) all know we had some discussion over lunch. MS. LANNIN: Turn your mic, please -- mic. MR. JANSEN: April, I know we had some discussion over lunch on this one, and I know you do have deadlines. I think there's a sense within the Committee that, had one been a little more artistically functional in terms of negative space, that it might have gotten our vote. Is there a chance to go back and look at this realistically and come back to the Committee next month? MS. STAFFORD: Would that be looking at a specific design or an entire leading (ph) portfolio? MR. JANSEN: No, no. MS. STAFFORD: apologize. Just the specific design and including it. I can't guarantee it, but there's a possibility. Is that a good enough answer? I -- (Crosstalk.) MS. STAFFORD: I think definitely a single design would be very possible. MR. JANSEN: Okay. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. SCARINCI: Can I just follow up -- Yes. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: -- on that? I 128 MR. SCARINCI: Please. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: It -- I think we have all talked about number 1 and it being the preferred design of a stakeholder. I think, also, we discussed -- Heidi brought it out that we could probably make these, you know, people a little bigger, the flags --maybe take away just a simple -- not really a redesign but simple elimination and moving some things around that we could work with that particular design. I think this is a wonderful design. It addresses the issue. You know, I really loved what Dennis has said about the population. So can we -- should we move on that, or can we just send that to the staff and to the artists and -MS. WASTWEET: MR. TUCKER: I could make a motion. Make a motion. MR. SCARINCI: Would you like to make a motion? So I'm -- what I'm hearing you -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. SCARINCI: Yeah. -- do is make a motion to approve Design number 1, subject to the modifications at the discretion of the mint artists. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes, I'm -- I'd like to make that motion with not leaving it to the mint artists, but just to make some suggestions that the mint artists might adapt -- adopt. MR. SCARINCI: Let's enumerate so we're clear. What -- there's a motion now on the floor or not --ready to be made and seconded. let's make it clear what we want the mint artists to do. So 129 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I think we want the mint artists to enlarge the two figures -MR. SCARINCI: Enlarge the two figures. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: -- a little bit to bring them to the foreground and to push the flags a little into the background and perhaps eliminate -- I'm not quite sure what the flowers on the stone is. But perhaps if that was eliminated we could just drop that -- those flagpoles down a little bit and have a look at one. And I think that would work. MS. WASTWEET: Can I make a suggestion towards your motion? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. WEINMAN: MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: Yeah. I think we're adding to what we're -- It's a friendly -Yeah. -- a friendly amendment. (Crosstalk.) MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: MS. WASTWEET: I would suggest -(inaudible - off mic). -- in the phrasing, rather than dictating to -- MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. WASTWEET: Right. -- the redesign, to send it back to the Mint for variations for us to consider on Design number 1. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: back to us. So if we did that, then they have to bring it If we just help them make it better -- 130 MS. WASTWEET: It needs to come back to us. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MS. LANNIN: MS. WASTWEET: Yes. But we'll be here in a month. Yeah. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Well, we will be here in a month. But will they have the time to do that? MS. STAFFORD: We will try our absolute best. I -- MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. STAFFORD: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No, I absolutely think it's possible, which is why I'm quite happy for us to try. So -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. STAFFORD: Okay. And -- but we take -- I think we take the input. And whether or not we can -- if we absolutely cannot bring it back, then at least we're fully armed with your input and we can -MS. WASTWEET: I think what helps is if we ask for variations of Design number 1 rather than asking for a new portfolio. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes, I think so. want it. MR. SCARINCI: They can do it. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: They can do it. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Okay. Exactly. We don't want that. We don't 131 MR. SCARINCI: MR. MORAN: They can absolutely do it -- We could also do a short telephonic meeting, and we could make it on the 18th. MR. SCARINCI: So the motion will be to request be resolved that the CCAC requests the mint artists to provide us with variations of the 01 design towards the next -- for our next meeting -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. SCARINCI: Yes. -- for review and approval at the next meeting. Okay. That's the request, okay? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. SCARINCI: Yes. Thank you very much. And Heidi's second. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. SCARINCI: Thank you. It was -- so that's Jeanne's motion. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. SCARINCI: Yes. Yeah. And all those in favor? Okay. All except Bob Hoge, who's abstaining. MR. HOGE: Against. MR. SCARINCI: Against. Okay. (Crosstalk.) MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you. Thank you very much. MR. SCARINCI: Thank you. That's resolved. MS. LANNIN: Okay. One more thing. 132 MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: Yes. We never really talked about this Northern Mariana Island gradation (ph). MR. SCARINCI: We're going to do that now with what we (inaudible - off mic). MR. WEINMAN: MR. SCARINCI: MR. WEINMAN: MR. SCARINCI: Okay. That's going to be another motion? Yeah. Well, let's do the -- That was -- it was -- this is Northern Mariana. Oh, this is the Northern Mariana. Okay. All right. So -MR. WEINMAN: MR. SCARINCI: You had another motion. What do we want? Okay. So let's have a -- before we do a motion, let's have a discussion so we understand what the issue is. MS. LANNIN: Okay. I understand that the font needs to be the same. I think it's more comfortable to the eye to see N. Mariana. And then if they can fit an island or a -- this is a single island, but it's a group of islands that comprise this park. one island, right? Saipan? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MS. LANNIN: Okay. So it – but it's only on Yes. So Isl. is actually the abbreviation for a single island. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Islands. 133 MS. LANNIN: Right. Islands? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MS. LANNIN: Really? Okay. Islands. I would like to see just N. Mariana, but if you can squeeze in Islands, I would be real happy with it. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MS. LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: Okay. (Inaudible - off mic). And that'll be my motion. So your motion would be N. Marian -Islands. -- Islands -Yes. -- spelled out. Possible yes. Okay. So there's a motion. There's a second by Dennis. Or more comment -MR. TUCKER: MR. SCARINCI: No, I second that. You're seconding the motion. Any discussion on the motion? Erik. MR. JANSEN: Has the Mint staff had discussion with the sponsors to their preferences? MS. STAFFORD: Yes. And if so, what are they? Typically, when we have these kinds of issues where the name of the site as well as the jurisdiction are required to be in there, we work to come up with options. And then the liaison typically selects their preference of those options, and then we 134 ensure the governor's office has no issue with that. What I can say is I am 99 percent sure. We did work with the team in Philadelphia on N. Mariana Islands, and it did not fit. We actually went back, I believe, twice on that. Perhaps what would be better is if we just take it back and say we'll again work with our liaison in Northern Mariana Islands and just double-back and make sure we have turned over every rock for possible -MS. LANNIN: Every grain of sand -- MS. STAFFORD: MS. LANNIN: -- abbreviation, yes. -- on the beach. MS. STAFFORD: That would be, I think, the best we could do there, just revisit it all together. MS. LANNIN: It just seemed to me that if you're from an island, whether it's Hawaii or the Marianas or Guam, you're used to that abbreviation for an island, islands. mainland, it's like Isl.? Like, if you're from the What's that? And I'm just trying to make it more accessible to all 50 states. MR. MORAN: Donald? MR. SCARINCI: MR. MORAN: There are sometimes when design by committee falls part. MR. SCARINCI: MR. MORAN: Any other comment by -- Right. This is one of them. We need to let April have flexibility to do what needs to be done. 135 MR. SCARINCI: Okay. So there's a motion, and there's a second. we have to vote on it. So -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: Islands. And What is the motion there? The motion is to change the legend to N. Mariana So that's the motion, so we can vote that motion down, and we make another motion to do what -(Crosstalk.) MR. SCARINCI: -- suggests. So let's take a vote on Mary's motion. All those in favor of Mary's motion, say aye. MS. LANNIN: Just Mary, oh, and Bob. MR. SCARINCI: Okay. (Crosstalk.) MR. SCARINCI: -- counter culture. He makes a joke, and now he's counter culture. (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: So okay. Motion fails. And now let's make another motion, Erik's motion. MR. JANSEN: I would make a motion to request the Mint staff in their addressing the modification of the image, also address the potentials for the perimeter, language, and come back with solutions. MR. SCARINCI: Okay. There's a motion to have the Mint staff address alternatives to NOR. Mariana Isl. MR. MORAN: Second. Is there a second – 136 MR. SCARINCI: MR. MORAN: -- to that motion? Second. MR. SCARINCI: the motion? Mike is seconding the motion. Is there a discussion on Does anyone want to say anything more about that motion? Okay -- yes, Erik – MR. JANSEN: I would just like to, just for point of clarity for this math (ph) here, is it absolutely foreboden (sic) to go to two lines in a smaller font? MS. STAFFORD: MR. JANSEN: Ron? From one line, whatever it is, to a first line -- (Crosstalk.) MR. JANSEN: MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: -- second line. No, on that quarter you want to go to two lines? I'm only asking the question. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: No, no. (Crosstalk.) MR. JANSEN: -- question in terms of -- (Crosstalk.) MS. LANNIN: I'll stick with Isl. MR. JANSEN: Yeah. (Laughter.) MR. JANSEN: (inaudible). 137 MR. HARRIGAL: First off, okay, this is a template -- MR. SCARINCI: Okay, Ron. MR. HARRIGAL: -- that we all agreed to at the beginning of the program -- the font size, where they're located, and everything. To do that kind of change, you're changing font size, you're squeezing it in, you're doing some other things which violates the template. So I mean, that's -UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. HARRIGAL: Okay. -- something that the Committee has to look at. Two lines of font there? No, can't do it. MR. SCARINCI: Answer is no. Okay. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. JANSEN: No. Now we're voting on the motion. No, point of clarity. (Crosstalk.) MR. JANSEN: MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: Well, they misunderstood my question. Okay. We just had a quarter a moment ago where Wilderness was dropped in as the second line within the perimeter, and that was there because the constituent party wanted Wilderness in there. To that extent, could not Mariana Islands be the perimeter and Northern dropped within the normal image area? I understand the template. also understand mission. (Crosstalk.) I 138 MR. MORAN: Well, the point -- we made the point of this. Go ahead and -(Crosstalk.) MR. JANSEN: It's a discussion point. They misunderstood the narrowness of my question. MR. SCARINCI: No, that's okay, I mean, because we're basically kicking back to -MS. LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: MR. SCARINCI: Yeah, let's let the Mint figure it out. Let the Mint figure it out. And you can talk to them. I was merely trying to give the Mint some wiggle room. Okay. All those in favor of the -- of Erik's motion? And it's not my motion. You made the motion. No, I didn't. And he seconded. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. JANSEN: Oh, okay. I seconded. Then -- (Laughter.) MR. JANSEN: I thought I'm getting blown -- (Crosstalk.) MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: So -I'm there. 139 MR. SCARINCI: -- motion about anything – all those opposed? (Crosstalk.) MR. JANSEN: Let the Mint figure it out. (Crosstalk.) MR. SCARINCI: -- the Mint figure it out. And there he is voting against letting the Mint figure it out. MR. HOGE: No, no. MR. SCARINCI: Motion carries. Motion carries, and that's why you always stop talking when you know you have the votes, right? (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: MR. WEINMAN: So -I wanted to have the solution emerge -Next. -- and I wanted the Mint to understand flexibilities. Okay. Moving on to more --moving on to Guam and War in the Pacific. Design number 1 received one vote. Design number 2 received 13 votes. Design number 3, the most votes received, 19 votes. Design number 5 and 5-A received two. Design number 6 received 19 votes MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: My turtle. Design number 7 received zero. Design number 8 received two. Design number 9 received zero. Design number 10 received one. Therefore, there are two different designs that received 19 votes. 140 MS. LANNIN: Wow. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Wow. Okay. MS. LANNIN: Well, we know what will happen there. MR. JANSEN: Can I change my vote? (Laughter.) UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The turtle rise again. So we have the turtle. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Do you want to just do a call of hands against the two? MR. SCARINCI: Well, we have the turtle. No, because if we do go with the turtle, we need to have a motion that goes with the turtle. If we do go with the turtle, we're going to need a motion that goes with the turtle to give it something that exists under water that represents (inaudible). MS. STAFFORD: And our liaison, I'm afraid, because of the time difference is no longer on the phone with us. (Crosstalk.) MS. STAFFORD: It's 3:30 -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: He's getting up to work. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I wish I was there. (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: Okay. So why don't we do this. Why don't we take -- since it's evenly divided, why don't we take a show of hands about 141 which of the two we like, all right? Would that be a good way to do it? MS. LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: May I say something? (inaudible). With our turtle record -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: Microphone. Mic on. Mic. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We might not want that one -- (Crosstalk.) MS. LANNIN: We don't have a good turtle record, sad to say. I think that what's going to happen when the CFA sees this it's going to be another anti-turtle crusade, and we're going to wind up with no turtle. Design number 3 seemed to be well like by a number of us. And to me, because it says War in the Pacific, that is a more fitting design of the two designs that were tied. get me wrong. I love our turtle. But I just think that if we let it go, we're still going to wind up with something like this, ultimately. save our turtle votes for when it counts. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I agree. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I agree. MS. LANNIN: Don't Okay. That is my motion. And we should 142 MR. SCARINCI: And I -- before we do a motion because we're going to vote for each design – and we'll vote by hands, and you can vote twice. MS. LANNIN: All right. MR. SCARINCI: Bob, I'd like to hear what your view is between the turtle and this one. MR. HOGE: Turtle. MR. SCARINCI: You like the turtle. (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: MR. URAM: case. Tom. I agree we could be up against it with the turtle in this And number 3 was also one of the preferences of our stakeholders. So if I -- I did vote for both. But having a motion made, I'd vote just to submit number 3. MR. SCARINCI: twice. Okay. So let's take a show of hands, and you can vote You can vote for both of them. So first of all, number 3, who -- how many votes do we have for number 3? A show of hands? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven votes for number 3. How many votes do we have for number turtle, number 6? All right. Three votes for number 6. So number 3 has it. So we're supporting number 3, breaking the tie by voting for number 3. MS. LANNIN: I just think we're going to get a great turtle at some point -UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah. 143 MS. LANNIN: -- not under the word War. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yeah. I think if we could have the turtle on the reverse -- I mean, this could be an obverse-reverse coin and have that turtle represent, which you had said you like, you know, whatever. This would be a perfect, perfect combination. MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: Okay. But that's not what we (inaudible). MR. SCARINCI: Well, done, over, decided. Greg. MR. WEINMAN: Move on to San Antonio Missions. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I hope this is vote tie. (Laughter.) MR. WEINMAN: It is not. Design number 1 had 14 votes. Design number 2 had one vote. Number 3, 3-A had 11 votes. Design number -- sorry. Design 3, 3-A, 3-B, 3-B is the one that had 29 votes. MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: Yes. So 3-B had 29 votes. It was 7 and 11, 29 for them. The others, just to round it out, 4 had one vote. Design 6 had two. Design 7 had one. one. Design 10 had four votes. And Design 5 had two. Design 8 had one. Design 9 had Design 11 had one, 11-A with three. 144 And Design 12 had none. So Design 3-B had 29, the overwhelming majority. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: Yay. That's wonderful. (Crosstalk.) MR. SCARINCI: Oh, okay. Well, before you make a motion, do you want to discuss -MR. URAM: Yeah, what I -- MR. SCARINCI: MR. URAM: -- the design? What I'd like to discuss is – I think we talked about it in our discussion. But can you go to number 3 and look at the wheat on 3, the straight versus 3-B? That's the only thing. I kind of like the straight up-and-down wheat versus the spray. That's my only -MR. SCARINCI: MR. WEINMAN: MR. URAM: Was it a group vote or … 3 -- no, 3 -- I think Mike -- MR. WEINMAN: MR. URAM: The vote was 3-B. -- 3-B itself. -- talked about that. MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: 3-B itself. At 29. At 29. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Let it go. 145 MR. WEINMAN: MR. SCARINCI: And we'll sort of -Yeah. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: 3-B had 29. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: MR. URAM: It's not -- We have to let it -- Okay. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. URAM: Let it go. 3-B is -- okay. I can live with that, but I just (inaudible). MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: MR. SCARINCI: Yeah. No, that looks more like wheat to me. River of No Return. Next, River of No Return. (Crosstalk.) MR. SCARINCI: MR. WEINMAN: I'm dying here. Okay. This is … Again, there's a clear -- there is a clear winner. Design number 1 had five votes. Design 1-A had eight. Design 2 had three votes. Design 3 had zero. Design 4 had 11 votes. Design 5-A had 28 votes. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: Okay. Wow. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: All right. We're good. 146 MR. WEINMAN: 6 had zero. 7 had one. 8 had zero. 8-A had zero. 9-A had one 10 had nine votes. 11 had four votes. 12 had zero. 13 had zero. 13-A had zero. 14 had 15 votes. 14-A had zero. 14 -- 16 had zero. 16-A had zero. 17 had two, and 17-A had zero. So design with -- the design with the overall -- with the 28 votes wasn't that (inaudible)? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: Okay. It was not. Was there any – were there any comments on 5-A? Anybody want to talk about it? Erik? MR. JANSEN: I just wanted to make a point here to the Mint staff that, in the future, although we're kind of ganging these things together on the votes, we clearly didn't gang 1 or 1-A on this. It kind of got five versus eight votes, so there's some confusion there. And I'd just like to say in the future that maybe we can, when these are presented to us, they can -- or balloted to us, that the ballots might gang by design so we don't dilute ourselves on similar designs. MR. WEINMAN: MR. SCARINCI: Although in this case 8 plus 5 still doesn't equal 28. No, no -- (Laughter.) MR. JANSEN: My point is I think we got halfway towards recognizing a better process -MR. SCARINCI: Right. I think, you know, to the extent there are similar designs that we need to group together so we don't dilute someone's design because we're asking you to give us multiple designs -- and by the same token, we don't want that to hurt the artists who's 147 doing these. In this case, we did not. But in the future, you know, give us -- give it to us as A, B, C so that when we vote we can vote for the group and then decide among the group which one we're doing. MR. JANSEN: That is my point. MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: Correct. Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: Okay, done. MS. WASTWEET: What -- MR. SCARINCI: Another -- is there another comment, Heidi? MS. WASTWEET: I just want to add to the record a comment about the neck of the wolf. I'd like to see more variation to the fur, which echoes the shape of the trees, and just in general reexamining the anatomy of the wolf neck. MR. SCARINCI: Okay. And -- MS. WASTWEET: Not as a motion, but just as a comment back to the artist and the sculptures. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: That's the address. MR. SCARINCI: So what we would like to say -- this is definitely not Emily's coin. So what we would like to -- well, this would be asking for a better wolf neck because she would have done it correctly. I think what you're hearing everybody ask for is a better wolf neck. You know, make it look like a wolf instead of a dog I think is what you're saying. 148 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: dog at all. No, no. In this case, it doesn't look like a You know, we're looking like a giraffe here. is just too long. And the way it could be corrected is, you know, maybe a little line from the back. or it needs to come out. Not like a calm -- MR. SCARINCI: And somebody -- MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: But the neck needs to be thicker, It's not right. MS. WASTWEET: MR. SCARINCI: This neck Right. It's not a calm-- I mean, Ron maybe, or I don't know who would take that back -MS. STAFFORD: We actually have biologists at the site who will work closely with this -- she – just need to be revised as we move it forward? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: have it addressed. Yeah. I think it – I think, yeah, we need to And maybe the long tree can come out so you get a bigger -- better neck on the body. Sometimes biologists aren't always there. MR. JANSEN: The transition between the head and the neck and the imputed body is just -- it's only -- the neck-body transition, it just feels a little bit wrong. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. JANSEN: It's a lot wrong. Yeah, it is. It's a lot wrong. And I'm not just going to sit here and say what's right. It just --this is not it. MR. SCARINCI: Okay. What else? 149 MR. WEINMAN: MR. SCARINCI: Ratification of the 2015-2016 annual report. All right. ratify it today. We have the annual report, and we need to And I believe that Dennis Tucker has submitted and email with some suggested changes. Everyone has a copy of that email. And you know, maybe we -- like, maybe we should entertain a motion for Dennis to make the changes to the report per his email. So Dennis has a motion? MR. TUCKER: MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: MR. SCARINCI: Yes, I do -Is there a second to that motion? Second. So there's a motion. There's a second to that motion. We'll let the email become part of the record -MR. WEINMAN: MR. SCARINCI: Perfect. -- so that we don't have to go through a lengthy discussion of it. And we'll request in the motion that the report be amended and Mary amend the report to include the recommendations in Dennis's email dated -UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: August 31st. -- August 31st, which is a part-- which is hereby made part of the record. And the --and so all in favor -- so that motion is Dennis's motion. All right. MR. TUCKER: MR. SCARINCI: I would just say as applicable because -Right. 150 MR. TUCKER: -- from our earlier discussion, some of my recommendations weren't entirely applicable. MR. SCARINCI: MR. TUCKER: Correct. Okay. MR. SCARINCI: MR. TUCKER: As applicable. Yeah. MR. SCARINCI: So as applicable, the motion is made. seconding it. All those in favor? Erik is Unanimous approval of the motion. And now as far -- now let's make a motion -MR. JANSEN: I'll move to adopt. MR. SCARINCI: -- to adopt the annual report as amended. All those in favor of adopt as amended? Unanimous approval of the annual report. Good job, everybody. MR. HOGE: Motion to dismiss. MR. SCARINCI: And if it wasn't for the fire, we would have been out of here -(Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: -- in time, unfortunately. motion to dismiss. But let's entertain a Motion made by --Bob Hoge wants to make that -- (Laughter.) MR. URAM: Second. MR. SCARINCI: And seconded by Tom. All those in favor? ALL: Aye. So motion for dismiss, seconded. 151 MR. SCARINCI: All right. Motion to adjourn. 152 C E R T I F I C A T E O F N O T A R Y P U B L I C I, KeVon Congo, the officer before whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby certify that the proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my direction; that said proceedings are a true and accurate record to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. KeVon Congo Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia 153 C E R T I F I C A T E O F T R A N S C R I B E R I, Karynn Willman, do hereby certify that this transcript was prepared from audio to the best of my ability. I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to this action, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. 9/25/2017 DATE Karynn Willman