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Page 1 THE CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE (CCAC) MEETING Conducted by Thomas J. Uram, Chair Wednesday, September 18, 2019 9:41 a.m. Department of the Treasury U.S. Mint 801 9th Street, NW Washington, D.C. 20220 Reported by: Natalia Thomas Page 2 A P P E A R A N C E S Thomas J. Uram, Chair, CCAC Mary Lannin, CCAC Erik Jansen, CCAC Robert Hoge, CCAC Michael Moran, CCAC Dr. Dean Kotlowski, CCAC Robin Salmon, CCAC Jeanne Stevens-Sollman, CCAC Donald Scarinci, CCAC Sam Gill, CCAC Dennis Tucker, CCAC Donald Ryder, Director, U.S. Mint April Stafford, Design Management, U.S. Mint Greg Weinman, U.S. Mint Jennifer Warren, U.S. Mint Roger Vasquez, U.S. Mint Pam Borer, Design Manager, U.S. Mint Ron Harrigal, U.S. Mint Joe Menna, U.S. Mint Betty Birdsong, U.S. Mint Page 3 Megan Sullivan, Design Manager, U.S. Mint Vanessa Franck, , Design Manager, U.S. Mint Liz Young, U.S. Mint Peggy McCall Campo, Secretary USS Indianapolis Survivors Organization Sara Vladic, Member of Volunteer Team USS Indianapolis Survivors Organization MG Robert "Bob" Lee, U.S. Army (ret) Chinese American Citizens Alliance Ed Gor, Chair Chinese American Citizens Alliance Ed Moy, Former Mint Director Chinese American Citizens Alliance MG William Chen, U.S. Army (ret) Chinese American Citizens Alliance MG Stephen Tom, U.S. Army (ret) Chinese American Citizens Alliance MG Darryll Wong, USAF (ret) Chinese American Citizens Alliance Brandon Hall, Coin Update, Public Mike Unser, Coin News, Public Page 4 C O N T E N T S SPEAKER PAGE Welcome and Call to Order Tom Uram, CCAC Chair 6 Acceptance of Minutes and Letters from Previous Meeting Tom Uram, CCAC Chair 9 Public Service Award Presentation David J. Ryder, Director 10 Review and Discussion of Candidate Designs for the 2020 American Innovation $1 Coins - Connecticut April Stafford, Design Management 15 Review and Discussion of Candidate Designs for the 2020 American Innovation $1 Coins - Massachusetts April Stafford, Design Management 46 Review and Discussion of Candidate Designs for the 2020 American Innovation $1 Coins - Maryland April Stafford, Design Management 74 Review and Discussion of Candidate Designs for the 2020 American Innovation $1 Coins - South Carolina April Stafford, Design Management 101 Page 5 SPEAKER PAGE Review and Discussion of Candidate Designs for the USS Indianapolis Congressional Gold Medal April Stafford 151 Peggy McCall Campo 152 Sara Vladic 153 April Stafford 154 Review and Discussion of Candidate Designs for the Chinese-American Veterans of WWII Congressional Gold Medal April Stafford 178 Major General Robert Lee 181 David J. Ryder, Director 184 April Stafford 185 Page 6 P R O C E E D I N G S THE CHAIR: Good morning, everyone. I'd like to call this meeting of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee for Wednesday, September 18th, 2019, to order. Before we begin, I want to introduce the members of the Committee. And please respond "present" when I call your name. Sam Gill MR. GILL: THE CHAIR: MR. HOGE: THE CHAIR: MR. JANSEN: THE CHAIR: Present. Robert Hoge. Present. Erik Jansen. Present. Dr. Dean Kotlowski on the phone. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Present. THE CHAIR: Mary Lanin: MS. LANIN: Present. THE CHAIR: Michael Moran. MR. MORAN: Here. THE CHAIR: Robin Salmon. MS. SALMON: Present. Page 7 THE CHAIR: Donald Scarinci. MR. SCARINCI: THE CHAIR: Present. Jeanne Stevens-Sollman. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: THE CHAIR: MR. TUCKER: THE CHAIR: Present. Dennis Tucker. Present. And I'm the Chairman, Tom Uram. Thank you all for being here today. MR. WEINMAN: THE CHAIR: We have a quorum. Thank you. Today's agenda includes the presentation of the Public Service Award by Director David Ryder to the CCAC member Mr. Erik Jansen; a discussion of letters to the Secretary and the minutes from our July 17th, 2019, meeting; a review and discussion of the reverse candidate designs for the 2020 American Innovation $1, and those are the coins for Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maryland, and South Carolina. We will also have a review and discussion of the obverse and reverse candidate designs for the USS Indianapolis Congressional Gold Medal. And then Page 8 finally, we'll have a review and discussion of the obverse and reverse candidate designs for the ChineseAmerican Veterans of World War II Congressional Gold Medal. Before we begin, are there members of the press in attendance or on the phone today? Anyone in attendance first? MR. HALL: Yes. Brandon Hall with Coin Update. MR. UNSER: Mike Unser with Coin News. THE CHAIR: Anyone else? (No audible response). THE CHAIR: Thanks for being with us. Finally, the -- for the record, I also acknowledge the following Mint staff that are participating in today's public meeting. First of all, April Stafford, Chief Office of Design Management. office include: And program managers from that Vanessa Franck, Megan Sullivan, Pam Borer, and Roger Vasquez. Also with us today is the Mint Chief Engraver Joe Menna; Manager of Design and Engraving Ron Page 9 Harrigal. Warren. We have the liaison to the CCAC, Jennifer We have our counsel to the CCAC, Mr. Greg Weinman; and Deputy Director of Legislative Affairs Betty Birdsong. I'd like to begin with the Mint. Are there any issues that we need to be addressed at this time? (No audible response). THE CHAIR: Seeing none, then the first item of agenda is the review and approval of the minutes and the Secretary letters from our last meeting. Are there any comments on the documents? (No audible response). THE CHAIR: Hearing none, may I entertain a motion to approve the minutes and letters? MR. HOGE: THE CHAIR: So moved. Second? We have Robert. All those in favor signify saying aye. (Chorus of ayes.) THE CHAIR: Opposed? (No audible response). THE CHAIR: Thank you. Motion approved. First order of business today is for our Page 10 Committee to make the presentation of the United States Mint Public Service Award to our colleague, Mr. Erik Jansen. Mr. Jansen has served two terms from 2011 to 2019 with the CCAC as a member representing the interest of general public. Mr. Jansen will complete his service to our organization effective September 30th, which makes this his last meeting. In recognition of his service, the Director of the United States Mint, Mr. David J. Ryder, will present the award to Mr. Erik Jansen. Director Ryder. (Applause.) UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: microphone. Use the Can somebody give Director a microphone? DIRECTOR RYDER: Do I need a mic? UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: For the record, DIRECTOR RYDER: For the record. yes. Oh, sure. For the record. (Laughter.) DIRECTOR RYDER: Being the Mint director, you get to do a lot of interesting things. But you also Page 11 have to make a lot of tough decisions sometimes. easy decision are always easy to make. The The tough decisions are not so easy. And in the case of Erik, I had to make a tough decision and tell Erik that he wasn't going to be going forth for a third term, not because Erik wasn't qualified -- Erik is amongst the most qualified individuals in this room -- but because I have a fundamental belief that new blood is always good, change is good. But in this case, Erik, you're going to be tough to be replaced. As the advisor to me on a number of occasions, I have always appreciated your candor, your professionalism, your knowledge for numismatics from all over the world. I've sat in backs of room and listened to you talk at ANA conventions. You have a wealth of knowledge that is going to be very hard to replace. And as I've told you in several personal notes, that I will always still reach out to you. are a exemplary man. you've done. I have appreciated all that And this award, I think, is just an You Page 12 extremely small token of what I would much prefer to give you. But I have to mind my -- I have to be careful. But this award has got the Alexander Hamilton award memo on it. I think it's befitting of what you've done for the U.S. Government, for the United States Mint. And all of us in this room will be eternally grateful for the service that you've done. I get to Seattle every so often. I'm going to be there soon. In fact, I'm going up to Anchorage, Alaska, to announce the Alaskan State quarter in a -- I think a couple weeks, maybe shorter than that. So maybe we can get together then. You never know. But if I could -- if you could come up and accept this award, I think everybody in this room will share and acknowledge the great job that Erik has done. And with that, I am, as I said, very grateful and want to say congratulations -MR. JANSEN: Thank you. DIRECTOR RYDER: (Applause.) -- job well done. Page 13 DIRECTOR RYDER: The two tallest guys in the room. (Laughter.) (Photo op.) DIRECTOR RYDER: Thank you so much. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. JANSEN: Keep the art great. Mic -Mic. Microphone. I'll only say the following: Keep the art great. There is incredible talent at the Mint these days for the program management here for the artistic charges that go out. The AIP program is just the beginning of letting sculptors in this country know there's a place for them so that we get more and more sculpting talent and not just artistic talent because everybody in this room has come to learn that those are two very, very different things. Keep the criticism kind but firm. And I'm hoping that there's an opportunity for the Committee to add to the development of the artistic charges, the review of the art so that there's a time when we Page 14 actually get a chance to do a post-mortem on the sculpts because the way it is now, the way we've got disparate art solicitation and sculpting production, these really are an artificial dichotomy that needs to be merged back together. And so I'm hoping that in the future the Committee will get a chance to make comments on whether the energy and the emotion and the original intentions of the artwork carry forward in the sculpt because I think there's a huge opportunity for a loss and an even larger opportunity to carry forth the great art meeting (ph). Thank you. (Applause.) THE CHAIR: Ryder and Erik. Thank you. Thank you, Director On behalf of your colleagues here, we wish you all the best, certainly. But also, well, thank you for the years of dedication to the CCAC. And we continue to always look forward to hearing some thoughts. So -MR. JANSEN: THE CHAIR: Thank you. -- thank you. Page 15 Now let us turn to April Stafford, Chief of the Mint's Office of Design Management, to present the reverse candidate designs for the Connecticut 2020 American Innovation $1 Coins. April. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. It is Public Law 115-197, the American Innovation Dollar Coin Act, that requires the Secretary of the Treasury to mint and issue dollar coins with a reverse design honoring innovation or innovators from each state in the union, the territories, and the District of Columbia. In accordance with this legislation, the Mint worked with the governors of the four states being honored in 2020 to develop design concepts for the coins. These concepts have been approved by the Secretary of the Treasury. The governors were asked to propose from one to three design concepts, and artists created designs based on all the concepts proposed and subsequently approved by the Secretary. The advisory Committees are not obligated to choose a particular theme and Page 16 then select the design from that theme. Rather, they can recommend the design they believe will create the best coin. The states that feel strongly about a particular theme may choose to submit only one. Others choose to highlight a variety of innovations or innovators tied to their state. Though Mint worked with liaisons and experts from each state in developing the following designs -and I should note that all of the governors' offices received the portfolio you're reviewing today, and they're comfortable with what they see. And those that have specific preferences we will share that as we move along. For Connecticut, the first theme, the Colt Armory. Combining the use of interchangeable parts, precision machining and assembly in the production of firearms, the Colt Armory was a major innovation in manufacturing. The Colt Armory was the first to widely commercialize the use of interchangeable parts, was a leader in assembly line practice, and became a training ground in manufacturing technology. Page 17 Design 1 depicts the iconic onion dome atop the Colt Armory. The additional inscription is "Colt Armory." Design 2 depicts a horse with a lance in its teeth, reminiscent of a symbol used by the Colt Armory. Gears in the background represent manufacturing and industry. The additional inscriptions are "Colt Armory" and "Manufacturing Innovation." Designs 3 and 4 feature the silhouette of the iconic Colt Armory dome with a series of gears representing manufacturing and industry. The additional inscriptions are "Colt Armory" and "Manufacturing Innovation." Design 5 depicts elements from five different products that were made using Colt's methods -bicycles, sewing machines, buttons, typewriters, and revolvers. Moving on to another theme, the Gerber variable scale. While in college, H. Joseph Gerber invented the Gerber variable scale, often called the most revolutionary engineering tool since the slide Page 18 rule. The scale uses a triangular calibrated spring as a computing element to eliminate all scaling and conversions between numerics and graphics. It assists in replotting curves and interpolating contour lines from observed data. It can also be used to convert between proportional scales, for instance, when enlarging or reducing an engineering drawing. By the 1950s, the variable scale was one of the most widely used tools for engineers and architects all over the world. Design 6, 6A, 7, and 7A depict the Gerber variable scale in use by an engineer or architect -Design 6, 6A, 7, and 7A. Design 8 depicts the Gerber variable scale being used to increase a geometric shape by 200 percent, a shape which resembles the State of Connecticut. The additional inscription is "Gerber Variable Scale." Design 9 depicts an engineering holding a Gerber variable scale. The additional inscription is "Gerber variable scale." Design 10 depicts the hands of an engineer Page 19 using the Gerber variable scale to calculate and plot out points of orientation. The inscription is "Gerber variable scale." And finally, the last design theme for Connecticut, the USS Nautilus. The USS Nautilus was the world's first operational nuclear-powered submarine. Nuclear propulsion is independent of air. And thus, nuclear-powered submarines can remain submerged much longer than diesel electric submarines. The Nautilus was the first submarine to complete a submerged transit of the North Pole. The development of nuclear-powered submarines revolutionized the industry with higher speed, better survivability, and significant endurance. Design 11 depicts the USS Nautilus breaking surface in the Arctic region with the additional inscription "USS Nautilus." 12 depicts the USS Nautilus in the Arctic with a polar bear in the foreground with the additional inscription "USS Nautilus." Designs 13, 14, and 14A depict the USS Nautilus at sea. The additional inscriptions are "USS Page 20 Nautilus," "Nuclear Propulsion," and "1952-1955," the years during which the Nautilus was constructed. This is Design 13, 14, and 14A. Design 15 features the USS Nautilus against the outline of an atom representing the uraniumpowered nuclear reactor that powers the submarine. Additional inscriptions are "USS Nautilus," "Nuclear Propulsion," and "1952-1955," the years during which the Nautilus was constructed. Design 16 depicts the Nautilus beneath the surface of the Arctic. An atom represents the uranium-powered nuclear reactor that powers the submarine with an additional inscription naming the submarine. Would you like me to pause there while you deliberate, or shall I go through all three states? THE CHAIR: Committee? What's the desire of the Would you -- let's focus on one state at a time, I think. Okay. MR. JANSEN: THE CHAIR: answer. Good move. Okay. I don't know. I asked the question and Page 21 (Laughter.) THE CHAIR: I don't know. For -- any -- yes, any technical questions from the Committee about the designs before we begin our general discussion? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: what was the preference? MS. STAFFORD: What was the state -- Is there a preference? No preference among the themes and no preference among the designs. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. STAFFORD: Okay. All right. They're comfortable with the portfolio. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: THE CHAIR: considerations. Okay. Thank you. So let's begin our I ask that the members please try and keep their comments to around the five-minute time frame. And with that, let's begin with Erik. Erik. MR. JANSEN: Of the three topics here, I think two of them are exceptionally challenging to the artists. I thought, as I looked at the Colt Armory as well as the Gerber scale, quite frankly, and not Page 22 critically, but I think just very difficult topics. And I didn't see any symbols which I felt really brought to the surface that would drive the message home to anybody observing this coin. And so I'm actually going to limit my comments to what I think is the more workable topic, which is Nautilus. That isn't to say the artists haven't put their best foot forward on the other two. I just find the story is so difficult and the symbols so evasive that I didn't see anything that really worked for me. So when I do turn to the Nautilus, I am mindful that this is a small palette and the challenge of translating what are gray-scale drawings into an effective sculpt and a coin design. I'm going to favor Design CT-15, really, for a couple of simple reasons. One, I think the atomic hexagonal symbol is such a -- an eyecatcher. I'm not aware that it's been used on coinage very much, if at all. And in that sense, it looks like virgin territory to me that we might be able to take advantage of here. I'm not especially fond of the artistic piece Page 23 of this. It's more of a graphical piece. I think it'll be fairly straight-forward to sculpt. I might recommend that the USS Nautilus be done in incuse, not the ship, but the actual hard lettering here. I did look at 16. And what concerns me on 16 is the essential perspective here, which I am fearful would be lost in even a great sculpt because of the subtlety of the water and waves above us and the nondescript waves in the bottom. I think it would be very hard to keep this coin from just devolving into a funny trapezoid on the medal. So I kind of discounted Design 16. I look forward to hearing comments from others on the other ideas as well as this idea. But I'm going to favor Design 15. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Erik. Donald. MR. SCARINCI: So I think I like the -- you know, I think the design of 7 is an interesting design, and that's the Gerber scale, you know, even though it might not be, you know, terribly obvious what that is without saying the -- without, you know, Page 24 saying Gerber variable scale underneath it. You know, but I think, you know, where I would -- where I'm -- where the Nautilus loses me is that it's just another military theme. And we do so many military, you know, at -- you know, it seems like every other commemorative is a military commemorative. You know, I'm just -- I just really don't want to approve -- you know, if we don't have to pick a military theme on a coin, I'd rather not pick a military theme on a coin. And I don't think any of these designs really stand out for this series. I think what we're going for with this series, you know, is that kind of graphic look, you know. And I think that's what's going to distinguish this series as a series. You know, we did it from the very first one with the gears, you know. And I think we should really send a clear message to the artists that, you know, we're looking for this series to be cohesive in that way, you know, that it should be -and I don't want to say -- I don't want to use the word "graphic" because I know that's the incorrect word. That's not the word I'm looking for. And I Page 25 don't want to use the word "geometric." to use the word "cubist." I don't want I don't want to use the word -MR. TUCKER: Maybe non-figural. MR. SCARINCI: MR. TUCKER: Well, yeah. To define it by what it's not. MR. SCARINCI: figural. I -- It would definitely be non- I think this would be a series, a non- figural series. You know, this is perfect for a non- figural series, you know. MR. HOGE: Emblematic. MR. SCARINCI: you know. This is an objects series. Emblematic. Right. Objects, And something like this, you know -- and objects -- and this is a good way to juxtapose designs, I mean, juxtapose, you know, kind of a geographic, you know, designs. sense. So it's pretty in that It goes with the series. So when I saw it, you know, absent some preference from the state, you know, I certainly don't want to do -- you know, I certainly don't think we need to do the Colt Armory. consider that, you know. I didn't even really So I mean, that's what -- Page 26 that was my thinking. as something to do. I didn't consider Colt Armory And I discounted the Nautilus because it's military, and we just do so much of that. So you know, and then I saw these 7 and 7A. You know, I think we probably have to hone in on which of the two, 7 or 7A, because they both have merit, you know. And then do we say -- do we put the words under there in some way? You know, do we say Gerber variable scale like they did in 8? They had Gerber variable scale, you know. And 8 was -- and, you know -- and look, that was creative, too. I mean, 8, to use the state's image as a graphic, that's a creative coin, too. So I'd like to hear as everyone speaks, you know, what they think of that. I think -- but I do think honing in on one of these -- I mean, honing in on either 7, 7A, or even 8 is the way to go with this coin. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Don. Jeanne. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Page 27 I am going to go directly to 8 because -- I think Donald mentioned this is very creative. also think it's very simple. And I I like the fact that there's an enlargement. So if we're trying to bring a new generation to our hobby or to our numismatic goal here, then I think it actually tells us all that this is a device to enlarge, you know, images. And here, it has it -- very simply, I think it would be struck very well. think that it would be good. one for the particular theme. I I have to go with that And I would like to make a comment on 13 where it's just very, very simple -- USS Nautilus -- if we went with the Nautilus thing. But I agree with Donald. We do do a lot of military, and I think we need to encompass other fields. Thank you. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Jeanne. Michael. MR. MORAN: Thank you, Tom. I would say I had troubles with this particular state. I get the reason for the selection Page 28 of Colt because of the interchangeability of parts and the forerunner of mass production. But I am troubled by using it as a theme for -- in particular, for Connecticut. I agree with Jeanne that, when you go to the Gerber variable scale, that 8's probably the best. It shows somewhat of what can be done with the scale. The others to me are a little too abstract. I agree with Donald that I like the -- I won't try and put it in words, but that abstract tone that we sampled with the original first medal with the gears, et cetera. I'm not sure we're going to be able to keep it for all the states. I hope that, as a theme, it does dominate. When you go to the Nautilus representations, I'm troubled by the dominance of the USS in most of the designs. It dominates the entire reverse, and I threw them out as a result of that. I do like the last one. on 16, I think it can be coined. And I disagree. And I don't think you can put any other ground waves in there. But I think the underneath sides of the icebergs would be very Page 29 dramatic on the coins. So I'll be giving you some points. The polar bear, no, that doesn't get it because I don't think the Nautilus would be that close to shore area because that polar bear is shortly -certainly not going to be out there in the Artic in the middle of an ice mass with no food. So I think that concludes my comments. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Michael. Dr. Dean. DR. KOTLOWSKI: talking about number 1. I'm going to start out by I think if the Mint were ever to do a series for states about American architecture, the Colt Armory would be a very strong candidate. And if Hartford, Connecticut, ever got a Major League Baseball team -(Laughter.) DR. KOTLOWSKI: -- I would advise them, if they were able to, to build a stadium near the Colt Armory and copy some of its themes maybe to integrate it in. But my problem with Colt Armory is that it's almost asking us in a way to trust that manufacturing Page 30 and innovation happened there with these interchangeable parts. specificity. I mean, we don't get a lot of And we get that with Design number 5. But without, you know, the description, I couldn't make out, you know, the button and the revolver and the keys to the typewriter. So those were my thoughts on Colt Armory. Like my colleagues, I was very, very drawn to number 8 for the Gerber variable scale. that was really a very clever design. I think that And as Jeanne was saying, you know, it gives you a sense -- I like to kind of reinforce it, you know, a little bit of geography here for the kids who are maybe collecting coins that this is Connecticut -- you know, that this is what Connecticut looks like. So it does quite a bit. And then with the Nautilus, I find myself agreeing a lot with Mike. I think USS Nautilus -- I threw that out because it just -- it dominated. thing with the -- you know, the polar bear. Same I wasn't persuaded. Nobody has said anything in favor of 11. I Page 31 kind of liked 11 because it's a symbol. I think, though, there's got to be something if you were to go with 11 about nuclear propulsion and why it's significant. My understanding is there was a USS Nautilus as a submarine in World War II. earlier one. There was an So that would have to be made clear. And you know, I just -- I took another look at 16. So like Mike, I'm going to be giving some points to 16. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Dean. DR. KOTLOWSKI: THE CHAIR: And those are my comments. Thank you. Robert. MR. HOGE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I -- my preference probably is for the Nautilus theme. But I'd like to address these other issues. First of all, I had too little information in my mind about the Gerber scale, knowing absolutely nothing about it before having encountered it here. Of the designs for the Gerber scale, I probably would prefer number 8. But I think it may be a little bit Page 32 two-dimensional for a medal. I mean, this is a flat piece. For the Colt Armory, I'm troubled by, actually, perhaps having too much information, having formerly been a student of antique arms. First of all, Colt started out with his innovations in New Jersey. So that would not be really appropriate for a Connecticut design. Connecticut was the home of the inventions of Eli Whitney, who after developing the cotton gin went into arms manufacture doing the interchangeability of parts and things like this. And second, this was the home of the Springfield Armory, Connecticut, which was the major arms manufacturer and innovator in terms of production for these things. So I think that the Colt theme is really not very appropriate. For the Nautilus, I like the design of number 11 because of its simplicity. number 16. I like the design of It adds a little bit of mystery, and the context of the underwater view is nice. But actually, my preference goes to number 12 Page 33 probably because of the polar bear. somewhat irrelevant, perhaps. You know, he's The Nautilus may not have come back closely in contact with them. But I can see this as a piece offering some possibility for depths of relief and context as a sculpt. having a polar bear there. species. And I like This is an endangered And also, this reduces the USS Nautilus somewhat. And I think that this is an appropriate design to the extent that, really, the name Nautilus is not only a U.S. submarine. This is an allusion to the innovative process developed by Jules Verne in the famous Nautilus, the Captain Nemo submarine of the 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. really, it's no question. So I think that, I think the Nautilus is, by far, the superior choice for Connecticut. It was developed in the state and became a worldwide phenomenon. Thank you. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Robert. Dennis. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Page 34 I found myself drawn to a lot of the designs that have helpful inscriptions. And I agree with a lot of our colleagues here that some of these themes really need that. CT-05 is very graphically inviting, but it really requires an outside explanation to make sense to the viewer. CT-02 has that inscription. "Manufacturing Innovation" on it. It's got I found that helpful. For various reasons, I don't think that the Colt Armory is the best topic to focus on for Connecticut. The Gerber variable scale, I would point out, is in the Smithsonian. We've discussed how it's revolutionized modern engineering and architecture. My thought was that the best designs in that concept were the ones that actually showed the instrument in use. So I was drawn to CT-10. design is very fine. And I know that that It's very finely detailed, and we're not dealing with a large canvas. there might be design challenges there. So I know that Ron and Joe Page 35 could speak to that, possibly. But I liked having the human element of someone actually putting this device to its proper use. The -- but for the Nautilus, I actually was drawn to CT-16. This is an intriguing design. think Robert spoke to it very eloquently. I It's an unusual view, and it's a perspective that's never been used on U.S. coinage before. So that makes it innovative, which is, you know, well within the bailiwick of this program. So I like CT-16. I would also point out -- Donald, I understand you're concerned about military themes and the emphasis on military topics. The scientific basis of nuclear propulsion, you know, goes beyond only military applications. It gets to exploration. As Robert mentioned, you know, the innovation of -- going back to Jules Verne and that sense of exploring our world and doing it well and doing it efficiently the way nuclear propulsion does. I think those are the -- those are my remarks. Thank you. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Dennis. Page 36 Sam. MR. GILL: Well, Tom, I thought all three of these themes were very good. The Colt Armory is really symbolic of industrial improvement, notwithstanding what Robert said because I know that he added a lot of color to it that I don't have. But I like the Colt Armory very much because it did participate in the industrialization of the country in manufacturing. The Gerber variable scale was very interesting to me, and it was news to me because I wasn't familiar with it. I like Jeanne's choice there of CT-08 if that were chosen, if that innovation was chosen. And the Nautilus was certainly something I remember as a child, and it was a huge, huge deal. And it was a true innovation. And I like CT-16 as well. So whatever way we end up here is -- would be fine with me. hard to depict. I found the Gerber scale a little bit So if you see it on the back of a coin, you're not going to naturally know what it is. Page 37 But you probably could figure out the Colt Armory, particularly if you chose the CT-02, which is the pony. And from a sales perspective -- and I know the Mint cares about this -- the Colt Armory or the Nautilus are going to sell better. They just are because there are lots of people that are going to know exactly what they are. So those are my comments, Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Sam. And you know, that's obviously a consideration as well as to, you know, animals, whether it be the polar bear or whether it be the horse, you know. They do sell. That's right. Mary. MS. LANIN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Am I on? UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MS. LANIN: Yeah. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am firmly in the Donald-Jeanne camp in terms of what I think is appropriate for Connecticut. One of the things that I was particularly drawn to, Page 38 although I do admit that I liked the graphics on CT-05 for the Colt Armory, but it would need to be explained to someone. But that graphically was appealing to me. I like CT-08. It's clean. Perhaps it will - - with the "Gerber Variable Scale" written on it, somebody might look it up. But the idea that they enlarged the State of Connecticut for a Connecticut coin I think is really very important. Again, with the military theme, I remember the Nautilus, too. be CT-11. My preference in that group would I just think it's a really dramatic use of how powerful that submarine must have been, whereas -I don't know if anybody's mentioned this. But in CT- 16, the first time I looked at it, I thought, why are those meteorites hitting that submarine? THE CHAIR: Yeah, that -- MS. LANIN: And so it's the idea of being under water that it didn't quite get there for me. So I wanted the power of CT-11. But my chosen design is going to be CT-08 because of the cleanness of it. And it's a simplified way of showing exactly what it does. Page 39 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Mary. And Robin. MS. SALMON: Thank you. For the Colt Armory, I'm -- I was looking at the purer design side of it as well as the history interpretation. And CT-03 that has the silhouette of the dome, the gears, and then the additional words of manufacturing and innovation I thought were significant. The potential for highs and lows and -- within this design I think could make it quite beautiful, and it had all of the elements that appeal to me to tell that story. I like "Manufacturing" and "Innovation" added because it also brings it forward. just the Colt Armory. Not -- it's not It's an important part of American manufacturing. The Gerber scale I, of course, have to go with CT-08, that more abstract design, very clean. The fact that the "Gerber Variable Scale" is written on it I think is very important. And the enlargement of the State of Connecticut gives it extra punch. Page 40 Then with the Nautilus, I liked, also, CT-16. And I think that it has a lot of possibilities for a beautiful coin, meteorites notwithstanding. But it could be shown to great advantage with the very skillful sculpting. And I like, too, the idea that this is something that's not been shown before in our coinage. Overall, I think I would go with CT-08 to represent the state. Thank you. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Robin. And before I make my comments, I'd like to -Greg has some comments regarding the score sheet. MR. WEINMAN: Yeah. I'm about to pass out the score sheet, as we normally do at this time. I wanted to comment. I don't know if this is -- this particular program will be as material to this. But where you see 6 and 6A or 7 and 7A or 14 and 14A, it's -- remember, keeping in mind that this is a tool for the organization -- it's sometimes best to possibly give them the same score. And then if by some chance that rises to the top, because these are Page 41 coin -- these are designs that are substantially the same design with some minor variations, if you can give them the same score, then if they do rise to the top, you can have a subsequent discussion about which one is the more appropriate one to recommend. But I wanted to mention that before we pass out the sheets. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Greg. Yeah, when I get the book and I look at the designs and the themes for -- and, particularly, this particular series that we're looking at, I just try and, you know, hit the designs which one my gut feeling is about. And then I also look at the historic side of it as well as, you know, which one might have come first, which one might have been more significant. And you know, I appreciate all of our discussion this morning because I think that, you know, a lot of good ideas here. And the thing is I think we have a lot of right ideas. I think that for a change we have a lot of right ideas. And what might end up happening is that we end up with recommending - you know, ranking them and depending how this vote Page 42 turns out. But before we vote, I'd like to turn it over to our Chief Engraver, Joe, to make a few comments on the designs, if you have any thoughts before we -- you -- you've heard our discussion. Do you want to talk about any negative space or anything possible as it would relate to any of the designs that were suggested? MR. MENNA: be pedantic. Well, you know, I'll try not to You know, this will be longer than any comment I'll make going forward if I continue to do this. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Is it on? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Is it on? MR. MENNA: pedantic. Is it on? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: There we go. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah. THE CHAIR: Now it is. MR. MENNA: I mean, I don't want to sound This will be a longer introduction to just where I'm coming from than I'll make again. But you know, I've heard the Committee often Page 43 talk about storyboarding and also talk about the simplicity of symbols and the preference for that kind of thing. And I would -- I understand that, and I just have a slightly different approach. My approach from my training, there's the understanding of this thing called formal composition. In Russia, they call it formal'naya kompozitsiya. It just means the under -- abstract architectural underpinning behind a painting, a sculpture, or a sculpture -- a relief in either a relief sculpture or a sculpture fully in the round. And this architectural underpinning is very similar to, if anyone's read Wassily Kandinsky's Point Line and Plane. Or there's a draftsman named Harold Speed who wrote a book called the Practice and Science of Drawing. And it's basically the lines and the structure and the -- you know, the composition that it doesn't matter how much detail you -- it's music. And no matter how much detail you want to put on, it's the tune that, whether you want to turn it into just a song or a symphony, it's that tune that is essential Page 44 to the work of art. So I'm just using that to kind of excuse my first choice. I like CT-06 because I think it's the most sculptural and dynamic of this set for the Gerber scale because the plane goes backwards in space. have the scale going off in a diagonal. twisted the paper a little bit. You Then they The diagonals of the arms going off, echoed by the diagonal on the side. For me, it's a sculpture that would be the most interesting one to sculpt. Just say it just like that. I like this -- I like the CT-07, the sets. I prefer -- I think 07A is cooler because it allows for more polish by having more negative space there. And then for the Nautilus, I like the CT-16 because it's something very unique. I mean, it reminds me of what I -- this -- it's anecdotal. won't -- I'll stay away from that stuff. to get into it. I I don't want It's just a really interesting underwater perspective of a submarine, that we've seen many submarines on U.S. Mint coins and medals. But I don't believe we've ever seen anything like this -- we Page 45 are -- where we are looking at the underside of the ocean. And artistically, I think the sub actually has some interesting forms on it -- the roundness on the bottom and the narrowness of the top that leads to the front onto a curve. So I think we could sculpt this in a very dynamic way. And that's it. So if that's cool that I say it like that, or if it's taking up too much time, you just let me know. THE CHAIR: No. Thank you. MR. MENNA: Yes, sir. THE CHAIR: Perfect. information as we go forward. I think that's good Like I said, there's a lot of right answers here regarding these themes. And vote accordingly. MR. WEINMAN: At this point, take your ballots and pass them down. And to Dr. Kotlowski, you have them. Feel free to email your ballot at your pleasure (ph). (Voting.) THE CHAIR: While they're being turned in, you may -- if you need to take a five-minute break Page 46 while we're -MR. WEINMAN: Do you want to do that, or you want to -THE CHAIR: Sure. MR. WEINMAN: -- this -- you want to move on to the next? MS. STAFFORD: We can tabulate while we go on to -THE CHAIR: Okay. MR. WEINMAN: Yeah. Okay. I'll just give everybody another minute, and then we're going to start the next round. (Off the record.) THE CHAIR: -- to our next discussion as the votes are tabulated. And April, if you don't mind, let's talk about the 2020 American Innovation Coin from the State of Massachusetts. MS. STAFFORD: Yes, sir. The first theme is telephone. In 1876, Alexander Graham Bell invented the telephone, and the impacts of this innovation are felt around the world Page 47 every day. Today, telephones are used to speak with friends and family and also for email, social media, surfing the internet, and countless other methods of communication. Design 1 depicts the dial of an early rotary dial telephone. The additional inscription is "Telephone." Design 2 depicts the telephone as drawn in Bell's patent. The inscriptions "Massachusetts," "Pat. No. 176,465," (sic), and "Telephone" are in the style of the lettering on the original patent. Design 3 depicts the original telephone invented by Alexander Graham Bell and its descendant, a modern cell phone sending out a signal that can connect users across the world. Design 4 represents the connection between people created by this invention. Today, instant communication, access to information, and many forms of entertainment are literally at your fingertips, depicted by four hands reaching toward each other. The background of the design depicts both the early mode of transmission through wires and today's Page 48 wireless networks. The second theme for Massachusetts is basketball. In Springfield, Massachusetts, in 1891, Dr. James Naysmith created the game of basketball using two peach baskets and a soccer ball. The sport required little equipment and was relatively easy to learn, so it quickly spread as the YMCA and the American Red Cross organized basketball games for offduty and convalescing troops during World War I. Design 5 depicts the hands of a basketball player taking a shot from the foul line. 6 depicts a view of the basket from overhead as a player dunks the ball. Design 7 depicts a large basketball with the silhouettes of four basketball players -- two men, and two women -- in action. One has just shot the basket toward the net, two are attempting to block the ball, and one is running toward the action. Below, three spectators view the game and excitedly gesture during the tense moment with one clapping and one raising a fist in hope. Design 8 depicts a basketball that has just Page 49 gone through the hoop at a low angle and is ricocheting in the net a moment before it falls. The way the net is stretched by the ball's energy suggests movement and action, two important characteristics of the sport. Design 9 depicts an overhead view of the basketball as it goes through the hoop into the net. 10 depicts elements from an early game of basketball -- a peach basket attached to a balcony and a soccer ball sailing into the basket. Inscriptions are "Invention of Basketball" and "1891." 11 depicts elements from an early game of basketball -- a peach basket and a soccer ball. 12 and 13 depict equipment used for the first basketball game. Designs 12 and 13 depict a peach basket and a soccer ball. pair of early sports shoes. Design 12 also features a This is 12 and 13. And finally, Design 14 depicts a slam dunk, one of the most exciting plays in basketball. The 20 on the player's jersey represents the coin's year of issuance, and the 13 stripes on the soles of each of the shoes represent the American roots of the game. Page 50 Mr. Chairman, that concludes Massachusetts. THE CHAIR: Okay. Thank you very much, April. Now, are there any questions regarding any technical points before we begin general discussion? (No audible response). THE CHAIR: Okay. So we'll start out here on our general discussion. Michael, would you kick it off? MR. MORAN: Thank you, Tom. I, for one -- and I know we talked about it - I disregarded the basketball theme. covered that with the Hall of Fame. We've already And as a result, I chose to focus on the telephone theme. I like the first two. I think the second two are a bit busy in terms of the negative space. second one appeals to me. The I like the use of the font that replicated the original on that in the application. But I also think the first one is kind of kitschy, whatever you want to say. That's a rotary dial, and this generation don't even know what the hell a rotary dial is. Page 51 So those are my comments, Tom. THE CHAIR: Okay. Thank you, Michael. Dean. (No audible response). THE CHAIR: Still with us there, Dean? (No audible response). THE CHAIR: Dean, how about Erik? MR. JANSEN: THE CHAIR: MR. JANSEN: Okay. While we're waiting for Why don't we kick off. Yeah, sure. I -- Hit the button. Thank you. I personally favor the telephonic idea here. And again, Design number 1, I love the rotary phone. The trouble is most people won't know what it is. So I struggled with the four choices reduced to three. And honestly, the thought that's lingered with me was an afterthought from my original evaluation here. And that is looking at Design number 4, which looks too doggone busy until one can perhaps look at the radiant pattern coming off the antenna really dismiss -- not dismiss -- really degrade that to such a soft part of the sculpt that it almost creates Page 52 negative space. If that combination can be made, I actually like this design, really, because it's an eyecatcher. And it -- I think it teleports, to use a bad metaphor, the observer from the telephone to the impact that communications have had, if I dare launch all the way forward to social media. So I think it's a very rich, innovative design, but I think the key to this, the absolute key to this, is this needs to be sculpted down so that it is, in fact, three -- or excuse me -- four touches and not the business that it is in this drawing. If I had to make a recommendation in basketball, practically speaking, I think Design 7 probably produces the best coin merely because it's creative use of negative space to become the actual message. It has all kinds of incorrect elements of composition. You never have men blocking women. But I think it would sculpt to a very interesting coin, given the size of the palette, and only because I liked it the first time and I think it makes a really fun design. Number 14 is pretty doggone fun. And in the Page 53 proof rendition, I think we could do some really fun things with texturing those stars and stripes on the bottom of the feet. Thank you. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Erik. Mary. MS. LANIN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm going to make an impassioned plea for number 1. I don't think that we're all too old to -- or too young to remember what a telephone rotary dial looks like. I think it's incredibly graphically interesting, and it unites generations from the cell phone back to not that many years ago when we all used a rotary dial. As mentioned before by Mike, we've gone through the basketball portfolio. like to commend the artists. And -- but I would There's a lot of incredibly good designs in there. In particular, I like the one that Eric likes, number 7. I also like number 5 as something very clean, and the dynamism of number 14 I think would sculpt very well. But I'm going to throw my votes toward the Page 54 old-fashioned rotary dial because I think it's going to be a lot of fun. It's going to have a lot of texture to it. Thank you. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Mary. Dean, are you back with us here? DR. KOTLOWSKI: THE CHAIR: Yes. Very good. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Okay. Can you hear me? Go ahead. For the reasons Mike stated, I'm going to just disregard basketball because, again, we've gone over that. And like Mary, I am very drawn to number 1. I think the vast majority of Americans, you know, are going to have some familiarity with the rotary telephone. And those that don't, this is going to be an interesting educational experience. I mean, it will foster some conversation between parents and their children and grandparents and their grandchildren. I wasn't too impressed with number 2. I didn't see the reason why we needed to have the patent number. And I thought that was going -- I like retro, Page 55 but I thought that was going way too far back. But it's -- I mean, it's okay. I think with 3 and 4, I don't know if anybody else feels the way I felt. But I really was unable to see in number 3 that as a cell phone. I thought that it -- the way it was drawn and the way I'm looking at it, it almost looked like it might be like a tablet or an iPad or something like that. And so you're left with a kind of middling representation of the telephone maybe in its -- what might be looking back as middle years. And that Design number 1, that would be accessible to the widest group of people. I think number 1 has the cleanest, clearest design. And again, I think with number 4, it's just too abstract and requires too much explanatory material to really make a lot of sense to the average person. So those are my comments. THE CHAIR: Thank you very much, Dean. Robert. MR. HOGE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Page 56 I, too, would disqualify selecting the basketball theme issues because of the -- what was already done. But I would like to comment that these designs, in some respects, I felt were even better as a portfolio than the ones we were presented with -for the Hall of Fame. Number 1 doesn't say a whole lot to me. I mean, yes, I recognize the rotary dial, and it says "Telephone." But this doesn't really convey a sense of innovation or history the way the other designs might. Number 2 I felt is just a little bit too retro to represent the idea of innovation, you know, having the patent and this -- the 1870s font. Number 3 is my favorite of these, but I have a possible issue. Is there any consideration or difficulty with the selection of the particular smartphone or iPhone? whatever. I mean, it may be a pad, but That still can be used as a telephone. But is this a particular brand or mark that we need to be considering or worrying about? MS. YOUNG: It's an excellent question. This Page 57 is a generic phone face. The artist looked at a bunch of the different brands, and this is what they came up with, which I think just tells us that they all really do look the same. But this is not -- I think we might look at it and say this is an Apple, this is an iPhone. (Crosstalk.) MS. YOUNG: But it's not. They all look the same. MR. HOGE: Okay. They all look the same to me, too. MS. YOUNG: MR. HOGE: Yeah. The rays, I think, are -- coming out from this thing are not quite as effective as the circular designs on number 4. But this is something I would leave to an artist selection. 4 is just a little bit too confused. I felt the number I mean, with all the fingers pointing, you talk about finger pointing these days, but this kind of loses the message of the telephone as far as I'm concerned. So I would -- my selection would be for number 3. Page 58 THE CHAIR: Thank you, Robert. Sam. MR. GILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I, too, focused entirely on the telephone. And it is truly a wonderful, wonderful innovation. like Mary's idea on the number 1. me back, and it's fun. I It just -- it takes And there's no question what it is because it says "Telephone" right there, so you can't miss it. I like number 2 as well in the history. depicts the history of it. It But my preference is number 1. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Sam. Robin. MS. SALMON: I also discounted the basketball designs, although I do like number 8, the net and the ball going through, and do agree that these designs, I think, are better than the original portfolio that we had. But the rotary dial had me at the very beginning, and I am going to throw my vote in that direction for all of the reasons that everyone has Page 59 already stated. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Robin. Donald. MR. SCARINCI: So I guess I have a problem with the telephone ones because that's New Jersey's thing. (Laughter.) MS. LANIN: Except for the appropriate accent. MR. SCARINCI: And since I'm from New Jersey, I'm protecting New Jersey. That's New Jersey's thing. Where does Massachusetts come off doing that, right? (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: THE CHAIR: So … Does New Jersey have something … (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: So I -- you know, so I have a problem with that. But you know, if I were to go with the phone, even though, obviously, the -- you know, the -- you know, I think the best comment is actually the right comment, which is number 1 is fun. I mean, it's fun. Page 60 I mean, it's not historically accurate, nope, you know. And it's certainly not, you know, the invention, I mean, because they didn't -- when they invented this -- the telephone, the -- that wasn't part of the invention, you know, the rotary dial. didn't need a rotary dial. they invented it. You There were two people when One was here, and one was there. You didn't need a rotary dial. It didn't come until - - into being until later in the telephone, you know. But you know, when you look at those, you know, 18th century tokens, you know, that have sundials on them and clocks on them, you know, they always sell for premiums. popular, you know. Why? You know, they're always Because they're fun. I mean, they're just fun. So we don't have to be historically, you know -- we don't have to be, you know -- we don't have to be historical all the time. We -- this is a series that, you know, is innovations, and we could just be fun if we want to be fun. never done that before. interesting. And that's fun. That's different. We've It's In fact, I don't think there's even a Page 61 medal that I recall that depicts that. You know, I could be wrong, but I don't think there's a medal that I've seen that depicts that. MR. TUCKER: There's an Israeli telephone token from the 1980s, or so. And if you look at enough accumulations or just common everyday things that people use tokens, you will often see them. And they're tiny, and they -- they're notched. And they're a bit thicker than a normal token. But they have a rotary dial. And whenever I would see one in the collection, I -- they're not really worth anything. But I would set it aside because they're neat to look at. MR. SCARINCI: So I guess, if I were to relent on it, I'd go there. And for the same reason, you know, for the basketball coin, you know, picking a basketball coin, you know, yeah, we've seen a lot of these before and, you know, in variations on this theme. Number 8 is probably the one to go with on the basketball coin for the same reason that I would go for number 1. Now, here's my pitch on why that -- why the Page 62 basketball coin because I think it's -- I think it is the 2020 commemorative. MS. STAFFORD: Yeah. MR. SCARINCI: Is the basketball commemorative? MS. STAFFORD: That's correct. MR. SCARINCI: So it might be -- you know, it might present a marketing opportunity if we went with basketball for Massachusetts, so not just because I don't think Massachusetts should have the telephone because it belongs to New Jersey and because 9,280some-odd people would be pissed, you know, to lose the telephone, but -- you know, but because, I mean, if we're going to do the basketball commemoratives -- and I heard some people say that's why you discounted it because we kind of looked at that, you know. And I wouldn't discount it because you looked at it. I would say, yeah, it's the year of basketball. We're going to be marketing the heck out of basketball. So you know, that could make -- you know, you could probably do something with this coin and the basketball commemorative and tie it all Page 63 together somehow, you know. And they could probably - - you know, and they could probably, you know, do some marketing thing with that. And they're going to spend money on marketing basketball, anyway. And the basketball people are going to be out in full force, you know, for basketball. So you know, this takes a series that's otherwise, you know, not exciting because it doesn't circulate and creates an exciting component at an exciting time when we're promoting basketball. So that would be my argument for -- that would be my secondary argument for going with basketball and for picking item 8 because I think you just -- there are two. I mean, if we're going to do basketball, you know, we don't need to be -- you know, we don't need to do the nerd thing, you know. We don't need to do 10 through -- you know, we don't need to do 10 through 13, you know. And the guy jumping through the hoop, you know, is kind of like reminiscent of what, you know, is in the commemorative. So this is just fun. So MA-08 is where I Page 64 would go. That's -- you know, that's where I'm going to vote. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Don. And some very good points there. I think that -- Dennis. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I agree with Donald. I think that the basketball designs don't need to be automatically discounted. There could be a lot of energy around basketball that year, and this would add to that. I think, though, that the basketball designs have been chosen by the Secretary of the Treasury, and they don't include any of these; is that correct? MS. STAFFORD: That's correct. There are some of the designs that you're seeing today that were in that original portfolio, but none of those which were selected by the Secretary and unveiled -MS. FRANCK: MS. STAFFORD: September 6th. -- September 6th are here. But there are ones that you did see and like very much in that portfolio, which is why we brought them back here. Page 65 MR. TUCKER: basketball designs. well. I like number 14 for the I like the energy of number 8 as However, I would point out that you could -- basketball is important. certainly. It's an American innovation, But I think you could live your life beyond your school days without ever thinking about or watching a basketball game. The telephone is very different. uses a telephone. Everyone That is a truly universal innovation today. Something else I want to bring up is I think we need to consider our audience for these coins. These dollars will not be as broadly accessible as educational tools as the circulating quarter dollars were. So school kids are not going to be finding these in their pocket change and having conversations about them and collecting their favorites in the way they would have with the state quarters. These are going to have to be sought deliberately by collectors in the vast majority of cases, rather than showing up in pocket change. consider, you know. That -- that's something to Page 66 So our -- if we worry too much about our audience not knowing what a rotary dial is, I think we're off track a bit because our audience is going to be a bit older. These are going to be established active coin collectors who are just an older demographic. So I think that MA-01 is an elegant design. It's universally recognizable to our audience. And even without the inscription "Telephone," which is helpful, even without that, it's something that you can immediately interpret. So I really like number 1. 14, again, on the basketball side, it's dynamic. It's a unique perspective. It was a strong contender in our conversations around the Basketball Hall of Fame review. But I really strongly prefer number 1 for the telephone. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Dennis. Originally -- well, first of all, let me make a comment on New Jersey and the telephone. Don, I think that was the Dixie cup with the wire and the string, you know. We -- well, there goes the New Jersey state for me; doesn't it? Page 67 (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: THE CHAIR: go. But New Jersey did it -- Yeah, there you go. There you You know, I originally did discount -MR. SCARINCI: -- incorrect. THE CHAIR: What's that? MR. SCARINCI: This is incorrect. New Jersey did it, not Massachusetts. THE CHAIR: Okay. Well, that'll be what we'll have to deal with maybe. But I did discount basketball, originally, but some of the comments as far as marketing goes, it might be a good idea. I would encourage everyone to vote according to their thoughts. But I, too, go to number 1 in the telephone. I think that it would be just, you know, a good conversation piece as well. And I think that people could relate to that, even though it might not be historically. But I think you need to go to the Governor's office and say, hey, you know, why -- since when? (Laughter.) Page 68 THE CHAIR: But the -- that's your challenge, Don. But I do think that -- I do like the fingers and the pointing and the circles. very clever. I think that was But once again, I think that it's been brought out that it would be difficult to interpret. But I think that the artist has done a really interesting job of creating a thought here. So I commend that. Before we vote, Joe, would you like to make any comment? MR. MENNA: Yeah -- THE CHAIR: That -- hold on. Yeah. Jeanne. MR. MENNA: -- (inaudible - off mic). THE CHAIR: Hold on, Joe. Jeanne. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Do you want me to comment on -THE CHAIR: Yes. Yes. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: THE CHAIR: I will. You're here. Okay. Oh, you were the Page 69 first one. I was supposed to start with you. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Well, thank you for recognizing me. (Laughter.) THE CHAIR: I was too much into the New Jersey telephone thing. (Laughter.) MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I know you were overwhelmed with New Jersey, as we all are. (Laughter.) THE CHAIR: You're sitting next to her. (Laughter.) MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I do agree with Donald about New Jersey perhaps being the forerunner of the telephone. However, I'm going to speak to number 1 because it is a fun thing. So if we're going to go with the telephone, even though I give accolades to the artist for number 4, as I looked at this image, I love the fact that it was -- all ages were included in these hands, you know -- youth, child, old person -elderlies. So congratulations on including all of humanity in that. Page 70 But I want to go back to the basketball. think that Massachusetts is no doubt. I And the Massachusetts was the forerunner and the innovator of basketball. So with that in mind, I am looking, again, as I did the last time, at number 7, which I think would coin up lovely, and also number 14. mean, I just love this piece. it. I I love the dynamics of I love the imagery that, you know, we have here with number 20 on his shirt and, you know, the stars on his soles. So this -- those three are my choices today. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. SCARINCI: THE CHAIR: You know -- Thank you, Jeanne. MR. SCARINCI: I -- Mr. Chairman, I almost wish we could, like -- you know, because, you know, 7 is nice, too. And I almost wish we could say, you know, for the first real basketball or telephone and then go from there, you know, because I could easily go with 7, too. I like 8 simply because I can just see the Director, if he's going to colorize coins in the Page 71 commemorative basketball, if that ultimately happens, I could easily see a set that includes a colorized version of this in that set that's only available in that set. And that would be pretty cool. And I could just hear him, like, say that, really. So anyway, just to throw that out there. THE CHAIR: Okay, Don. Thanks. And if you look at number 7, it's -- if you recall, this is, like, a reverse proof of the design we actually selected, so in some degree there. So if you are going to give some votes and thoughts to the basketball, I agree. But I kind of lean more towards the motion if we're looking at it. And the thing that's really enticed me on it is the fact that a possible marketing opportunity that was brought up. I think that's -- you know, I know Sam brought it up in the last discussion regarding how we can be marketable and help both efforts. And if that's the case, then I think a complement -- since we already have a basketball going through a hoop that could be colorized and we actually have number 7 in the design factor of the original commemorative, then Page 72 I would lean towards something totally different, more like 14 that would engage the motion and a person, you know, physically there. So if you do decide to vote and go that way, give that some consideration from the marketing standpoint. Joe, final comments? MR. MENNA: Yes, sir. I mean, I only see one design as -- that -- I only see one design that I think is really awesome, and that's MA-08. The -- if you look at the ball, it's perfectly centered within the coin, and yet it has a vigorous dynamic thrust to the right with the addition of -- because of the addition of the net. This coin is both static and in motion at the same time, and it has such a profound sense of motion, something unlike I've seen on a U.S. coin in a mighty long time, the -- that I think the movement, which is, like, the same thing as gesture in sculpture, is something very important. And it's -- I think it's just quite beautiful. If I was going to go for the telephone theme, being from New Jersey, also, I would also go with the MA-01. Page 73 THE CHAIR: Okay. Thank you. And Greg will now pass out the -- is there any further discussion? MR. TUCKER: MR. MENNA: MR. TUCKER: If not -- go ahead, Dennis. I do have a question for Joe. Yes, sir. Do you think, given the small canvas that you'd be working on, that there are any particular challenges with number 1 with the numerals and the letters. MR. MENNA: These designs have already been vetted by our product design specialist, who check things for coinability. They have templates for numbers and letter scales. MR. TUCKER: MR. MENNA: MR. TUCKER: And it should all be okay. Okay. And if not, we would adjust it. Thank you. MR. MENNA: Thank you. THE CHAIR: And as a point of clarification, we had the unveiling of the New Jersey quarter -- or dollar -- I'm sorry -- and that was the light bulb, which I'll -- you know, we did the light bulb for New Jersey. But the work on the telephone was actually Page 74 done in Massachusetts. So -- (Laughter.) THE CHAIR: -- just a point of clarification for those of you now voting. MR. JANSEN: That's brutal. MR. SCARINCI: It's conceived in (inaudible - off mic). THE CHAIR: China, or something. It might be, like, assembled in I -- (Laughter.) MR. JANSEN: Ouch. (Voting.) THE CHAIR: Feel free to move about for the next 5, 10 minutes, if you'd like. (Off the record.) THE CHAIR: Welcome back, everyone. And we will now turn to April, the Mint Office of Management, to present the reverse candidate design of the Maryland 2020 American Innovation $1 Coin. MS. STAFFORD: THE CHAIR: Thank you. Thank you. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. Page 75 And the first design theme is the Hubble Space Telescope. Managed by teams at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center and the Space Telescope Science Institute, both located in Maryland, the Hubble Space Telescope is one of the largest and most versatile space telescopes. Data transmission -- transmitted by Hubble has helped refine estimates of the age of the universe, trace the growth of galaxies, identify planets beyond our solar system, study the planets within our solar system, identify black holes, observe the birth and death of stars, and many other scientific discoveries. So Design 1, 2, and 3 depict the Hubble Space Telescope observing the universe. Additional inscriptions on Design 1 and 3 are "Hubble Space Telescope." This is Design 1, 2, and 3. Designs 4 and 4A depict close-up views of the Hubble Space Telescope orbiting the Earth. Design 4, shown here, features the additional inscription "Hubble Space Telescope." And 4A. Design 5 depicts the Hubble Space Telescope orbiting the Earth surrounded by a field of stars. Page 76 The additional inscription is the "The Hubble Space Telescope." The next design theme is the Human Genome Project. From 1990 to 2003, the Human Genome Project, a project from the Department of Energy and the National Institute of Health, worked to identify all of the genes in human DNA and determined the sequences of the chemical-based pairs making up human DNA. The data from this project is free to anyone with internet access and has benefits to many fields, including medicine, agriculture, forensics, and bioarcheology. Design 6 and 7 depict a figure in the style of da Vinci's Vitruvian Man, a common symbol of humanity. Across the figure is a chromosome representing the mission of the Human Genome Project. Additional inscriptions are "Mapping the Human Genome" and "Mapping Human Genome," as seen on Design 6 and 7. Design 8 uses the background of da Vinci's Vitruvian Man with the chromosomes replacing the figure within the geometric shapes representing the Human Genome Project. The chromosome breaks free from the boundaries, symbolizing the unlimited Page 77 possibilities for the use of the information from the project. The additional inscriptions are "NIH" and "Mapping Human Genome." Design 9 depicts a chromosome with a key and a keyhole, symbolizing the mission of the Human Genome Project to identify, map, and unlock the human genome. The additional inscription is "Mapping Human Genome." Design 10 depicts DNA bent in a curve with the Y in the inscription "Maryland" turning into a human chromosome. Design 11 depicts two DNA strands encircling the composition and overlapping an atom. The additional inscription is "The Human Genome Project." Design 12 depicts an image of the Earth with a simplified strand of DNA and the additional inscription "Mapping the Human Genome." 13 features a strand of DNA with wings folded behind as a play on the caduceus, often used as a symbol of medicine. The additional inscription reads "The Human Genome Project." Design 14 features a pattern based on the first 15 human chromosomes. Surrounding the design Page 78 are the numbers 1 through 23, representing the 23 chromosomes. And finally, Design 15 depicts a diagram of a DNA double helix formed by base pairs, one of which is about to be paired together. The additional inscription is "Mapping the Human Genome." THE CHAIR: Thank you, April. Before we begin again our general discussion, are there any technical questions from the Committee about any of the designs? (No audible response). THE CHAIR: Seeing none, let's discuss our considerations. And Jeanne, would you kick us off? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I had a hard time, I think, with this portfolio because there was just a lot of complexity in the drawings. And I have to -- some of them are very intriguing. I'm looking at number 11 for the -- a human genome because I think, in my opinion, it becomes Page 79 abstract, but it also tells us what Maryland was about. So that would be my choice for that theme. I think that, also, number 7 could be sort of a fun piece. However, number 5 for the theme of the telescope, the Hubble Space Telescope, I think is -- I think could be nice sculpted. And I love the star element and also the acknowledgment that NASA is on this telescope. Is this -- this is correct? NASA belongs -- the letters NASA are supposed to be on that telescope? Anybody? Historian? Dean, are you out there? (No audible response). MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: question I have about that. That's all. THE CHAIR: That's the only But I do like number 5. Thank you. Thank you, Jeanne. Dennis. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I love the dichotomy within this portfolio. We have one set of designs that look microscopically Page 80 inside us and then another that looks way outside and into the universe. So I really enjoyed this portfolio. Of the two, I found myself kind of leaning towards the idea of looking out. in quite a bit. I think people look The significance of the Hubble Space Telescope is incredible. It can't be -- it cannot be overemphasized. I also liked -- I liked number 5 for its innovative use of typography. The -- this typography has never been used on a United States coin before. It has the helpful legend that I talked about earlier in case someone does need some context. It tells them that this is the Hubble Space Telescope. And I also like the fact that NASA is called out, specifically. For the human genome -- but so just to affirm that, number 5 is my strong preference for this. For the Human Genome Project, I liked number 13. The wings, although they're not human, obviously -- they're idiom (ph) -- wings evoke flight. They evoke hope and freedom, the freedom that comes from self-knowledge and knowledge, in general. And I Page 81 thought this was just the most artful of the designs for the Human Genome Project. But again, my strong preference is for the Hubble Space Telescope as a concept and number 5 for the design. Thank you. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Dennis. Michael. MR. MORAN: Tom, I was really hoping you'd put me last so I can listen to everybody else. (Laughter.) THE CHAIR: I can do that. MR. MORAN: No. THE CHAIR: All right. hang in there? You're going to still All right. MR. MORAN: like number 1. Or you -- I can. Well, for the Hubble, I actually I like the -- the appeal being reasonably simple. But I can see why people are gravitating toward number 5. When you go over to the human genome, 7 has some potential, but I don't like the void there in the center. I think it loses in terms of the design, and Page 82 your eye is picking at it even though it shouldn't. As a result, I can't go there. Number 10, the human chromosome I don't think will show up. I think it would get lost. little bit too acute. It's just a But again, you've got the negative space there. The one that I like, I think, is probably number 15. Not artistic, but it's simple and clean fields. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Michael. Dean. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Well, to answer Jeanne's question, first off, I'm really not a specialist in the history of space, technology, things along those lines. But the images that I saw online had NASA on number 5 and on the space -- on the Hubble Space Telescope. And number 5 is my choice. drawn to this. elegant. I was very, very I think it's very simple. It's very I like the lettering that is used with NASA and reflected in Maryland. Number 1 just didn't inspire me, and numbers Page 83 2 through 4A, so 2, 3 -- excuse me -- 4, and 4A, just struck me as variations on a theme. just, again, I found uninspiring. And the theme I thought number 2 looked like it was some sort of an attack by some sort of space insect on some smaller objects of being. maybe that shows motion. But I like number 5. And I like the elegance. For the human genome, again, I agree with a lot of the discussion that's gone by a little bit earlier. I guess I'm -- you know, by default, I'm drawn to number 7. And that's really almost it. I can see something with number 9, you know, this idea of unlocking. But I think that design is pretty simple, and it makes its point in something of a heavy-handed way. I might just want to give some points to number 15. But those are my comments, Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIR: Okay, Dean. Thank you. Erik. MR. JANSEN: Thank you, Tom. I was really gratified that we're choosing Page 84 between two incredibly important innovations to mankind here. And that's not to decimate New Jersey or anything that might happen in New Jersey. But between Hubble and the genome, I think these are the kind of innovations that the entire series was designed to precipitate. So that makes it a difficult challenge. And so I will encourage everyone on the Committee to really do an effort to give us a preferential for the Hubble and a preference for the genome so that this Committee does not make the decision as to which of the innovations is important, but, in fact, gives the upstream decision-makers our best cut whichever way they go. In terms of the artwork, on the Hubble, I think Design number 5 is kind of the default best choice. set. It has no energy to it. I do like the font That is -- if it isn't NASA's font set, it's pretty darn close to it. And only because the Mint cares about copyrighted things, that might be something you might want to be careful about. And I don't know what the open status with font sets are, Page 85 but be careful of that. And I don't think they're advertising some space on the Hubble. So I'm not aware that NASA's on the telescope itself. That's not a killer defect to me. I think if we go with 5, to the sculptors, the Hubble Telescope is really not about a telescope. It's really about the stars. And so I would hate to think that the stars would decimate in the sculpt. But at the same time, I don't want the stars to turn into the star moids (ph) of Design MD-01 and 2. I think those are detracting details. But it's kind of like the days we ask on Amerhart, can you sculpt fireworks? volcano? And he said, yeah, we can. back at those quarters, he did them. Can you sculpt a And if you look They were kind of, well, wow, did you really get that done right? So the stars are going to be a challenging sculpt here. that. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on All right then. MR. MENNA: be the -(Laughter.) I sculpt be (ph) the fireworks, Page 86 MR. JANSEN: MR. MENNA: -- fireworks were tough. I sculpted the fireworks. MR. JANSEN: MR. MENNA: Well, they were tough, I think. No, I would defer to your opinion and acumen and judgment. I think -- I won't comment on either version as a preference. I would just say that we could sculpt either version equally well. MR. JANSEN: Well, I would just say that I don't know how many stars there are here, whether there's 50 or 48 or -MR. MENNA: MR. JANSEN: MR. MENNA: But I'll --- a multiple of 13. I would interrupt you and also add that, just like I said about the text, these are already embedded by our -MR. JANSEN: MR. MENNA: Yeah, okay. -- coinability specialist. And they deemed coinable. MR. JANSEN: MR. MENNA: MR. JANSEN: MR. MENNA: Well, here comes the challenge. Yes, sir. Every star is different. Well, this -- I think this artist Page 87 did -- well, you know, I -(Laughter.) MR. MENNA: -- he or she did it deliberately. MR. JANSEN: When it comes to the genome, wow, I was really drawn to Design number 7 with the Vitruvian Man and the reasonably correct artistic representation of the helix. Michael, would you feel differently about this if the Vitruvian Man diagram was not totally included by what is a see-through rendition of the -MR. MORAN: Oh, yeah. MR. JANSEN: MR. MORAN: Okay. Yeah, it would have been my favorite. MR. JANSEN: favorite. With that, it would be your And with that adoption, it becomes my hands down favorite as well. When I look at -- and it's not because they're all on the second page -- but 9 through 15, every one of those has a confusing artistic element and a wrong or disturbing aesthetic or is very in so much subtlety that it's going to get lost in the small Page 88 palette. Number 9 looks to me like that's a collage as opposed to an artistic rendering here. 10 and 11 and 12, the spiral looks more like parts of a suspension bridge to me. And so they kind of violate the normal I see it, I get it symbolic power of the DNA spiral. 13 just caught me by surprise. text is a little small on the perimeter. I think the But it caught me by surprise and really just doesn't make me click. 14, unless you know what a gas chromatograph is, you probably don't know what that is. that isn't even chromatography. the genetic representation. Or perhaps Maybe that's actually But I think it deviates from what people are going to understand. And 15 just doesn't -- it doesn't come across to me as the genetic twisted pair. So I go back to 7. And I go with the Vitruvian Man sculpted subtly and not with sharp edges, but with a bright, high relief spiral across it, I think that is the killer message of mankind Page 89 finding itself in itself. Thank you. THE CHAIR: MR. HOGE: Let's go to Robert. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's really interesting, I think, that we have this view of microscopic things. ever seen the genome? Nobody. I mean, who has But we see here the double -- famous double helix represented as though it might be some kind of bizarre roller coaster ride. We also see the components of the genetic intervals in the different chemicals (ph). I like the wings of the caduceus. But I think I would lean much more toward the Hubble Telescope as a design that would be appropriate for this issue. Number 1, I think it's quite appealing showing the whole image of the telescope. But I have a little bit of a problem with the stars -these are -- like, all the tail stars. And I would prefer this design if these things were a little smaller and if there were 13 as there is on number 2. Number 2, 3, and 4 and 4A all, to me, are a little bit confused because of the truncation of the Page 90 telescope. Number 5 I like because you really get an impression that the telescope is looking outward into space from the Earth. And the fact that it includes Maryland, that kind of ties it correctly to the state. But speaking of the state, both of these projects, the genome and the Hubble Telescope are, to me, more national or federal projects than they are connected with the State of Maryland. So I'm not sure why exactly Maryland has selected these as representatives of their state, just as I had a problem with Massachusetts, for instance, of why they wanted to select those designs. I like the double helix. things. I like the genome And I agree that these are very important innovations that are worthy of being represented. It's a little difficult to decide. My preferences are probably for number 1 and/or number 5, although I can see the possibility of the other ones, too. Thank you. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Robert. Page 91 And if the telescope is chose, I would entertain -- I'd like to entertain a motion for the stars. I think it's a good idea. Donald. MR. SCARINCI: I -- you know, I -- as much as I like space things on coins -- and we don't do enough of that, so the space thing on the coin would be nice -- the Hubble -- I mean, I'm surprised the state -I'm surprised Maryland wants this because the Hubble Telescope failed, and it didn't work for, like, the first 18 months. So why they're commemorating something that didn't work I don't understand. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. JANSEN: It's working now. But that was the New Jersey subcontractor -(Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: Well, maybe. Well, you could be -- you can't see the stars in New Jersey, so you don't worry about -- we don't worry about -(Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: THE CHAIR: -- we can't take -- Why might that be -- Page 92 MR. SCARINCI: We can't take credit for this, you know. But so I -- you know, I just have a hard time, you know, commemorating, you know, something that's broken, I mean, you know, at its outset. But you know -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. SCARINCI: It got fixed, though. It got fixed, yeah. It cost - - and it -- after massive cost overruns and, you know -- it got fixed. MR. HOGE: Probably -- MR. SCARINCI: MR. HOGE: But -- -- from New Jersey. MR. SCARINCI: No, it didn't. It come from Maryland, you know, a Democratic state, but it came from Maryland. But so, you know, I mean, I'm more inclined to go with -- you know, with the genome, and I think it's certainly more -- you know, certainly, in -- you know, in so many ways, more significant, you know, than the Hubble. I wish, you know -- you know, I wish we had, Page 93 you know, some other designs. what we have is really fine. But I think some -You know, I -- I've heard some preferences for number 15, and that perfectly illustrates, you know, the theme. And it's -- you know, it's graphic, and it does what, you know, I'm looking for it to do. I actually think 14 is very cool. No one will know what that is, and that's probably why no one's supporting it, because no one's going to know what that is. But it is cool. So you know, I -- and I think -- you know, I think 13 -- you know, I think the wings are actually something out of that TV series Lucifer if they're angel wings. They're angel wings. (Crosstalk.) MR. SCARINCI: Lucifer -- it's a TV series. He actually comes -- he comes to Earth. You know, the Devil comes to Earth, and he's -- he becomes, like, a -- you know, a police -(Crosstalk.) MR. SCARINCI: burns his wings off. -- a police detective. Right. And he But somebody steals his Page 94 wings and sells them at auction. THE CHAIR: So the -- More valuable information. (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: He's not from New Jersey. He's from LA. So the -- so I also like number 10, you know, as a design. I think number 7 -- what I'm hearing from people, you know, with, you know, the -- it's just -- my problem with number 7 is, you know, how many times are we going to do this da Vinci thing? You know, it's been done, it's been done, it's been done, it's been done. It's almost been done to the point of being trite. It was done on an Austrian coin not too long ago. It's -- I think there was a coin of the year coin -THE CHAIR: Yeah, there was. MR. SCARINCI: THE CHAIR: -- actually -- Yeah. MR. SCARINCI: -- the Vitruvian Man. a Nobium -- one of the Nobium -THE CHAIR: Yeah, exactly. It was Page 95 MR. SCARINCI: -- 25 euros. So I mean, you know, you see the image all the time, you know. see the image? So how many times are we going to I mean, I just don't -- I just -- for that reason, I wouldn't support number 7. It's just trite. Number 15 is something we've seen. So you know, my feeling would be to go with 16 because I know I wouldn't get support for 14, and I don't think anybody would understand 14. has talked about number 10. And no one So I would probably go with 15, and I would stay away from the Hubble as much as I would like a space theme on a coin. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Donald. Sam. MR. GILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This was a tough choice because these two innovations are truly, truly, truly historic, and they affect personally everybody on the planet in one way, shape, or form. In terms of the Hubble, I liked Design number 5 because I like the NASA inscription on there, and I Page 96 also just like the stars. And it was just a -- it looks like it would be a very pretty coin. The Human Genome Project, it's tougher to choose. I actually looked at number 12, even though it looks like a suspension bridge. that. I think Erik said The reason is because it crosses the world in this innovation, and that's the reason why. And I thought this imagery would work on that coin. But I don't have a strong preference. I think the Hubble, if you were looking for sales, it's a pretty cool thing for kids, the telescope part of it. But anyway, they're both -- both are equally good. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Sam. Robin. MS. SALMON: With the Hubble Space Telescope, I initially like number 3. talked about it. And it's -- no one's But the detail of the telescope hovering over the world, the interesting way that the lettering is displayed caught my eye, initially. I think, though, after hearing everybody talk, that more appropriate would be the number 5 with Page 97 the full telescope. And I was drawn to the lettering. The particular font here is beautiful and appropriate. The stars, I think, can be sculpted in such a way that they will really stand out. With the human genome, I will talk about number 14. That was my choice and I guess because it is different. It's -- what it reminded me of, initially, is a painting by somewhat like in the style of Mondrian. And if people don't know what this is, then it's -- it gives us a perfect opportunity for education, and I think that's an important collateral that goes along with all of this. I think collectors will also look at it and say what is that and be intrigued. So I liked that, number 14, very much. And then my second choice is number 15. simplicity is there. story. There's action. The It tells the And I think it could make a very nice design as well. Thank you. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Robin. And Mary. MS. LANIN: Okay. Of the two topics for Page 98 Maryland, our two choices, much as I like number 5 for the Hubble Telescope for all the reasons that have been enumerated, I think that we need to go with the Human Genome Project. Then it gets kind of difficult. The logo of the National Institute of Health is the Vitruvian Man, which is pictured in number 7, but only partially pictured. Leonardo da Vinci died 500 years ago, and he was, arguably, one of the most brilliant people on the planet. And I don't think that reusing the Vitruvian Man is trite at all. So I do want to, you know, put in a vote for MD number 7. Additionally, I liked number 10. But there was nothing that said "Mapping the Human Genome Project." So that kind of left the interesting use of the genome for Y unexplained to the general public. I'm glad Robin talked about number 14. Initially, that was really one of my favorites, but again the same issue. We don't see "Mapping the Human Genome" anywhere. And you know, how many of us have signed up for, like, ancestry.com or 23andMe? all of this stuff. I mean, this is Page 99 So kind of by default, MD-15, which has "Mapping the Human Genome" written on it, shows part of the double helix, and is a very clean graphic. I think I'm going to support that for my choice. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Mary. As far as my thoughts go, also, as Robin had mentioned, number 3 there, I did like the -- how the wording did come around. It kind of has the motion. The problem here is the panel, I think. I think the panel's just overwhelming the telescope itself. like what the artist has done there. So I And I also like the fact that the -- there's more definition of the Earth as compared to number 5. But I'm going to have to go with number 5, and it would be nice if we had some more definition of the Earth. It looks more like the Moon to me than it does otherwise. But I think the definition could be enhanced through the process. As far as human genome goes, I'm leaning towards number 15. And I understand on number 14 how creative it could be and some thought process could be Page 100 there. Once again, these are dollars. So how many are going to really -- you know, it's not like the quarters. So I kind of would lean, if I'm doing the genome, to go with 15 or 12. So with that, I'd like to have Greg Weinman pass out our judging sheets, and we'll go from there. MR. JANSEN: Do I get -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. JANSEN: THE CHAIR: Joe -- -- Joe's comments? Oh, I thought he had already made a few earlier, but go ahead. MR. MENNA: either group. judgment. Oh, I don't have a preference in But I defer to the Committee's Thank you. THE CHAIR: Okay. Thank you. (Voting.) (Off the record.) THE CHAIR: We will continue on and turn to April Stafford, Chief of the Mint Office of Design Management, to present the reverse candidate designs for the South Carolina 2020 American Innovation $1 Coin. Page 101 April. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. The first theme is Septima Clark. During the Civil Rights Movement, Septima Poinsette Clark pioneered the link between education and political organizing. She helped establish the first Citizenship Schools, teaching literacy and citizenship rights and helping establish local leaders for the Civil Rights Movement. Teaching people how to read and understand the Constitution helped AfricanAmerican citizens pass the literacy tests used to disenfranchise these voters. Clark believed knowledge could empower marginalized groups in ways that formal legal equality couldn't. I should note that this is the Governor's office's preferred theme. So we'll start with Design 1. This design features Septima Clark teaching at a blackboard. Rendered is the U.S. Constitution, representing the concept of Citizenship Schools that helped African Americans learn to read and to understand the Constitution. The additional inscriptions are Page 102 "Septima Clark" and "Citizenship Schools." Design 2 depicts Septima Clark marching with three young African-American students who carry books and an American flag. Representing the education and literacy among oppressed people is necessary for empowerment and enjoyment of civil rights. The additional inscription is "Septima Clark." I'd note that this, of this theme, is the preference of the South Carolina Governor's office. MR. SCARINCI: Just this design (inaudible - MS. STAFFORD: Both. off mic)? preference. The theme is their And of the theme offerings -- MR. SCARINCI: This design. MS. STAFFORD: -- it's this design. MR. SCARINCI: And this was the first time Yes, sir. we've had -MS. STAFFORD: Correct. MR. SCARINCI: -- a preference. MS. STAFFORD: Yes. MR. SCARINCI: Oh. Oh. Page 103 MS. STAFFORD: And we have Design 3, which depicts Septima Clark looking on as an adult student learns to read. The additional inscriptions are "Septima Clark" and "Mother of the Movement." Moving on to the next theme for South Carolina, the Maser. Charles Hard Townes, PhD, received the Nobel Prize for his role in the invention of the maser, microwave amplification by stimulated emission of radiation. The maser utilized a new way to create intense, precise beams of coherent radiation. Masers are currently used as the time-keeping devices in atomic clocks and as low-noise microwave amplifiers in radio telescopes and deep-space spacecraft communication. Design 4 depicts a scientist holding a model of an electrode magnetic field, the organizing principle of science behind the maser. Lines in the background represent the beams of microwave energy being projected through space. Designs 5, 5A, 6, and 6A depict the hands of a scientist symbolically controlling and magnifying Page 104 beams of energy by manipulating electrically charged fields. The additional inscription is "Maser." This is Design 5 and Design 5A. In designs 6 and 6A, the lines in the background represent the beams of microwave energy being projected through space. This is 6 and 6A. Design 7 depicts TESS, the Transiting Exoplanet Survey Satellite, orbiting Earth with South Carolina emphasized in North America. Townes' invention of the maser led to the development of atomic clocks and lasers, which led to the development of satellites. The negative space and the composition references the crescent moon shape on the South Carolina's state flag. The eight stars indicate South Carolina's order of entry into the Union. The additional inscription is "Maser." 8 depicts a symbolic representation of the maser's use in an atomic clock. 9 depicts a simplified equation describing the workings of a maser. An elemental gas is stimulated by the addition of photons that forces it from energy level 1 to energy level 2. The natural Page 105 response is a rebalancing from E2 back to E1. This oscillating cycle produces microwaves, represented by waving lines at the top. A simplified low relief of the first maser device is depicted behind the equation. That concludes South Carolina's portfolio, Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIR: Thank you, April. Any technical questions before we begin our considerations? (No audible response). THE CHAIR: Okay. Seeing none, Donald, why don't you kick it off. MR. SCARINCI: Well, it's the first time we've had a -- you know, it's the first time we've had a recommendation coming out of the state. I mean, look, I wish it wasn't five figures on a small palette like that, you know, but, you know, I think it -(Crosstalk.) MR. SCARINCI: -- I think it absolutely -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: Microphone. Oh, I'm sorry. Page 106 So I'm -- you know, I'm very happy that this is the first, you know, time -- the first time today we've had a recommendation from the state. I wish it wasn't four figures on a small palette, on a small $1sized palette, you know. But, you know, I clearly, you know, notwithstanding the merits of, you know, of the other designs -- and there are merits on the other designs, which I'll certainly, you know, check off the merit box on the form, you know. I think -- you know, I think the Septima Clark -- I think one of the three designs, you know, of Septima Clark is what we should really be talking about, you know. And my feeling is, if the state feels passionately enough to recommend, you know, Design 2, you know, I can't say that it won't work on the small coin. I mean, it's -- it wouldn't be what I would do, you know, but I can't say that -- I certainly can't say that 1 or 3 are any nicer in terms of artistic designs. So once I -- once I'm resigned to going with, you know -- you know, with 1, 2, or 3, in my mind, artistically, I mean, I can't tell -- I can't -- you Page 107 know, it's -- you know, I can't tell you there's a difference in my --you know, artistically. make a difference to me which. It doesn't And if the state wants number 2, you know, that's great that they made the recommendation. So be it. THE CHAIR: Thank you. Jeanne. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you, Tom. I have to agree with Donald. I think that this is -- if the Governor liked this number 2, I would support that. If we look at maser and all of those images related to it, unfortunately, I see the design element as a pumpkin. And -- (Laughter.) MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: And sorry. I just can't get past the fact that it looks like a pumpkin. And I consequently have disregarded all of those. I know -- I don't care for, you know, 9 or 8. And It's just very subjective of -- sorry, Joe, I'm not very articulate about this except the pumpkin image. will have to go with number 2. And I Page 108 Thank you. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Jeanne. Erik. MR. JANSEN: Thank you, Tom. I have a technical question for the legal people in the room. And excuse me if I'm asking a question that's been asked before. What are restrictions and rules about profiles of people and innovators, in particular? MS. YOUNG: I'm not sure I understand the question. MR. JANSEN: Was there -- in the legislation, was there an exclusion we cannot put in profiles, we cannot have a picture of the innovator? MS. YOUNG: MR. JANSEN: MR. WEINMAN: Is … No. No issues. Was the head and -- no head and shoulders. MS. YOUNG: No head and shoulders, but not -- no exclusion for a profile. MR. JANSEN: MR. WEINMAN: Okay. So -- And tend to avoid two in a Page 109 coin. MS. YOUNG: MR. JANSEN: Right. All right. So Design 4, for instance, is not a head and shoulders? MR. WEINMAN: MS. YOUNG: MR. WEINMAN: MS. YOUNG: MR. JANSEN: It's -No. It's a -It's not an actual person. Oh, okay. It -- I didn't think it was Bill Nye the Science Guy, but I thought it might be -(Laughter.) MR. JANSEN: MS. YOUNG: MR. JANSEN: MR. WEINMAN: -- an innovator. No? No. Okay. It's Bill Nye. (Crosstalk.) MR. WEINMAN: exact science. And by the way, it's not an But by and large, when there is a hand or other body parts that are included, we've generally erred on the side of allowing it, especially when it's not this -- it's not a central element. MS. YOUNG: This is Sequoyah. Page 110 MR. WEINMAN: right. Right. You may remember the -- And -MR. JANSEN: I do. MR. WEINMAN: -- program. That has different language in the bill for the Native American dollar. But it's not a head -- it's not only a head and shoulders portrait. There is, in fact, his hand, which is actually the central -MR. JANSEN: MR. WEINMAN: MR. JANSEN: MR. WEINMAN: MR. JANSEN: Right. -- feature of the -Right. -- design. So thank you, Jeanne, for encapsulating my inner pumpkin here because I had the exact same confusion in that symbol, and so it didn't register well. We have a fascinating situation here where we're faced with a highly technical innovation and a highly political social innovation. And I don't know how to resolve that other than to encourage the Committee's members to vote their best art in both of the options and make sure we preserve that decision Page 111 for perhaps others beyond us and not lock down a decision and end up with inferior art if they go against our innovation preference. Having said that, Design 1, I think, is -it's too busy. But maybe the sculptors can take the business away from us by preserving the background lettering from the famous document and creating negative-ish space there. I don't know. Joe, what are your thoughts there? MR. MENNA: I'm sorry. I got distracted by an email from one of the -MR. JANSEN: MR. MENNA: MR. JANSEN: That's all right. I'm -- -- somebody in Philadelphia. I'm really asking you to tell us how you would sculpt the document in the background here. MR. MENNA: It would -- the way it's drawn, it looks like it's incused, but perhaps we would change that. draft. Either way, it's a challenge with the I think maybe this is a better question for my boss with that. Page 112 (Laughter.) MR. JANSEN: Oh, I don't know. (Crosstalk.) MR. JANSEN: as your boss. I'm not sure the room sees him But … MR. MENNA: He's my boss. (Crosstalk.) MR. JANSEN: -- must stand independently, Joe. MR. HARRIGAL: I think that's something we can represent in very low relief texture. And you'll be able to read, like, "We the People" and maybe "Article 1," but the rest is going to be unreadable when it gets done, you know -MR. JANSEN: My real question then because I'm going to drive to the answer I'm looking for: Does that end up looking like complexity or negativeish space? MR. HARRIGAL: We may end up modeling it both ways and seeing which actually can -MR. JANSEN: MR. HARRIGAL: Which way do you think --- perform. Page 113 MR. JANSEN: -- you would end up going? MR. HARRIGAL: I mean, you're really putting me on the spot. MR. JANSEN: MR. MENNA: sculpt. I am. Right. So that's a lot to But it's -- yeah, you've got to keep it low so the draft doesn't get crazy. MR. HARRIGAL: Yeah. That's -- it -- that -- I'm thinking that's going to be more like -- looking more like texture than relief. maybe lasered on. It -- it's going to be I'm not sure at this point. MR. JANSEN: Okay. MR. HARRIGAL: But it's going to be more like patterning on the field than actually showing in any kind of relief. MR. JANSEN: Thank you. So based on all of that, I view in the cultural innovation, the social innovation dimension here, I actually like the potential artistic effect of 1 better than 2. 3 would not be my choice of the -- of SC-01, 2, and 3. I originally thought in SC-03 that he was in a wheelchair until I looked very Page 114 closely. And so I think we have a choice between 1 or 2, depending on how you liked or didn't understand or come to grips with the discussion there on how the document in the background, critical to the -- I think "We the People" is critical. I'm not sure the rest is. So switching over to the maser side, I want to thank Mary for encouraging me to reread and thank the Mint for always including these artists' comments because I reread the comments on number 7. And as she said to me, once you read that, you'll realize it's the only design here that makes any sense. And the danger is someone without having this text will go, wow, didn't we just do the Hubble? But this is an incredibly encoded, inclusive symbolically of what the artist buried here for us to unpack and turns the maser, which is an incredibly sophisticated innovation into how we're discovering planets that exist in the universe around us. So if we turn just one young mind from a questioner to a devotee of what makes their hearts sing and turn somebody into an Page 115 astronomer that wasn't going to be one but for our maser rendition here, if that isn't a long idea, this is a great design. It coins up wonderfully. It's incredibly meaningful if the Mint were to include some information about these designs in the annual set, perhaps. On 8 and 9, 8 is too much detail. It's kind of cool, but I don't think it will render up with a meaningful clock face nuclear timekeeping. And number 9, I think it's just a little much. So I'm going to support 1 and 2 to preserve the Committee's ability to put forth emphasis in that area. And I'm going to support Design 7 for the maser. Thank you. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Erik. Michael. MR. MORAN: I looked through this portfolio. And the first time, I thought, oh, 7, the South Carolina crescent. The Committee's going to go head over heels for that thing. much as I want it to. I'm not sure it conveys as Page 116 On the other hand, I liked number 8, the atomic clock. And -- but it needs to have maser in there somewhere because, otherwise, it's really not apparent what in the world's going on there. But let's get back to the first three because I want to respect what the state has done here in terms of guidance. And Erik, I understand what you're trying to get at with number 1 because it does make sense if you -- if that were negative space you said "We the People" out there. And it would work. Number 3 doesn't convey what they're trying to do, which is the Citizenship School. Let's look at number 2. too many, for darn sure. Four figures is one It is their choice. But when you look at those four figures, the young woman on the right really doesn't add anything to the design. It's just a fourth figure. And if we were to go with number 2, I would suggest that you get the Citizenship School in there in place of the fourth figure, and that gives you some additional negative space, particularly if you do it incuse, which makes Page 117 that -- it's probably the most emblematic of what they're trying to do, which was to link education with advocacy for their civil rights. And I see why the state wants it. Thank you, Tom. THE CHAIR: All right, Michael. Thank you. Sam. MR. GILL: Thank you, Tom. Just to echo what Erik just said, I think we need to pay attention to the designs of all of them, and that's important. But just to -- just in terms of the state itself, I also understand why they want to go with number 2, and I have absolutely no problem with it. And I think that it will make a very pretty coin, and they should be proud of it. The maser thing was complicated to me, and I didn't really know how you would depict that very well. And you have to make adjustments to the ones you might choose. The crescent of South Carolina on number 7 was the nicest of all of them. And I did like the atomic clock, but it doesn't say anything. So that's it for me. Page 118 THE CHAIR: Thank you, Sam. Dennis. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. When we came in, we didn't know the Governor's preference or the state's preference for these themes. I was actually very happy to learn that Septima Clark was their preference. Something we've talked about since the beginning of this program is that not every innovation has to be scientific, technological, mechanical, engineering, something that can be patented, something that can be invented or created in that sense. Innovations can be cultural. They can be spiritual, mental, or otherwise intangible. Martin Luther King called Septima Clark the mother of the movement, the mother of the Civil Rights Movement. I like number 1 because I think it most clearly spells out what Septima Clark did. teacher. She was a She taught for action and for civil rights. But I think number 2 makes her look like a marcher for civil rights and a political activist in that sense. Page 119 I like the way number 1 captures her essence as a teacher. I had the same questions and concerns in the back of my mind about the -- how the design of the text of the Constitution would be sculpted. But Joe has several times throughout the day reassured us that everything that we're being presented today is technically and artistically possible. So I'm confident now, especially after this more recent discussion, that "We the People" at least will be very legible, and people will understand that they're looking at the Constitution. I like the -- again, the helpful legends or helpful inscriptions, as I keep calling them. "Citizenship Schools" and her name, "Septima Clark," will kind of broadcast to people who need that, who she was and what she did. I would also point out that it looks like this -- in 2019, we had seven designs for these dollars where one was devoted to a person and three were devoted to inventions or more technical aspects of innovation. And it looks like we're moving into Page 120 2020. This would give us that same kind of approach where we have three that are technical or inventionrelated and one that is devoted to a person rather than a thing. So I like that continuity as well and that development within the program. But I think that number 1 is a very strong design. I think it's a strong theme. And I'm glad that this was the Governor's choice of theme. I think 1 is stronger than 2, and that's what I would recommend. THE CHAIR: Thank you very much, Dennis. Mary. MS. LANIN: I would like to respect what the Governor has chosen as a theme. And so I think that I'm going to restrict my choices to either 1 or 2. 1 is difficult for me because it's just so incredibly busy. I like the fact that it has her name boldly, that it has "Citizenship Schools" so that people that don't know who Septima Clark was can kind of click on that, as it were. Number 2 -- I don't want to do, you know, design by Committee again, but if you -- I do like Page 121 this design. I think it's really clean-looking. If there was a way to remove the far-right figure and then put "Citizenship Schools" under -- you know, curved underneath Septima Clark's name, you know, that may solve a few problems. But I would like to talk a little bit about number 7, which was my favorite. The only part about this design that I felt was flawed was that "Maser" is a little too small. You don't know what that is. I'd like to see that brought up a little bit more. I would also want to make sure that "South Carolina" was clear on the map of the United States. And I was wondering what we would do to make South Carolina pop out of the map. I liked the fact that it mimicked the crescent moon, and I liked the fact that there are eight stars. I just thought that this was a really good design. And that's all I have to say. THE CHAIR: Thank you. Thank you, Mary. Dean. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Page 122 Can you hear me okay? THE CHAIR: Very good. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Okay. Very good. Very good. To changes in the writing of history of civil rights, there have been many changes. But I think the Septima Clark captures two very important historiographic changes. One is involving gender and new emphasis on the role of women in the Civil Rights Movement. And the other is what historians like to call the Long Civil Rights Movement because Septima Clark was -- I mean, when the Civil Rights Movement was initially taught in school, it was -(Coughing.) DR. KOTLOWSKI: -- history, a lot of people focused on the period of 1954 to whatever, beginning with the Brown decision. But historians have been pushing that back and seeing the roots of the Civil Rights Movement in the '30s, even earlier than that. So we're starting to see more of a long Civil Rights Movement. in 1898. She fits into that very well. She was born A lot of her emphasis was in the kind of Page 123 classical period of 1954 onward. But she also was an activist earlier than that, so (inaudible) all of that. And I like Design number 1. When I was really, really collecting coins, I remember (inaudible) Bicentennial coin for the U.S. Constitution. And this has some similarities to that. And I think for reasons that a number of my colleagues have mentioned, you've got "Citizenship Schools." You've got her name. As Mike and two others said with number 2, I think if you did eliminate the fourth character, I think it's really important to put "Citizenship Schools" there so you know you're not just honoring the individual and their accomplishments, but something very specific that was innovative. And I'm not going to go into it, but I didn't care for number 3. I think with maser, I really didn't know what to do with these. I think it's very, very hard for the artists to capture them. I'd like to say something about number 7 that Page 124 I don't think anybody has mentioned. The design, in terms of the way it's with the stars and so forth, it reminds me a lot of the Annie Jump Cannon coin for Delaware. And I don't know whether -- how much we want to think about what we've recommended or what's been approved in the past. similar feel to that. same artists. But you know, it has a I would imagine some of the I don't want to exclude, you know, similar works. I think earlier I'm talking about some works that I like that are similar and that you're including here. But that one -- if anyone wants to allay my concerns about that, I think that's probably the best of the maser ones. And that's the one that I'll give my -- most of my points to. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Dean. DR. KOTLOWSKI: THE CHAIR: Those are my comments. Thank you very much. Robin. MS. SALMON: Septima Clark is a very important person in South Carolina history and in the history of the Civil Rights Movement overall. She Page 125 does predate what we think of typically as the movement dates 1954 forward. As a teacher, literacy was the cornerstone of her Citizenship Schools. And for that reason, I was drawn right off the bat to number 1. coinable. work. there. It's been established that it is That was my initial concern, but it can And the Citizenship Schools does need to be All three of the designs related to Ms. Clark are good. But I think number 1 is the best. Regarding the maser, there's no question in my mind as a native South Carolinian that it's number 7. And I -- and I'm going to point out for the record that is not a crescent moon. That is a gorget. The South Carolina flag dates back to a flag used during the American Revolution. military uniform. It's part of a And no crescent moon is here. But the history information within this design I think is very important. Aside from the maser itself, anything that casts South Carolina in a positive light I'm for. state in the design. And definitely bring out the Page 126 So number 1 and number 7 are my choices. THE CHAIR: Thank you. Thank you, Robin. Robert. MR. HOGE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think there's really no question but that we should go with number 2 because this is, in fact, a positive selection and it's a beautiful design. I agree with others, though, who have said that it probably should be best amplified by adding in something to the extent of mentioning the Citizenship Schools, and that could be effectively be put in by replacing the figure on the right and with the wording. I like the fact in number 1 that we have the necessary wording in the exergue of the piece. gives a sort of classical feel. It But I think that number 1, in spite of the great technical abilities of our Mint and the assurance that this could be a coinable piece, I think this is really a bad design for a coin. I can't read that when it's four feet across up there on the screen. And then looking at my three-inch one here on the page, I can't read that one Page 127 either. So it's pointless to have a lot of wording like that. It's just filling in what could otherwise be some negative space and something else that could be said. Regarding the maser, this needs explanation. I mean, people are going to look at this and say, who is Mr. Maser? And if we were to look at the image of a man holding the pumpkin in number 4, why wouldn't that actually be Charles Hard Townes? I mean, there would be no reason to exclude him since he's, evidently, the inventor. Number 7 is an attractive piece, but I think South Carolina is going to be totally lost. When I look at these things and try to find it on the threeinch version that we have here, it looks like there's a little flaw on the coast line of America. We can pick it out barely here on the four-foot-wide image on the screen. And as I think Erik mentioned, we see the Hubble Telescope there flying around looking only back at the Earth. Or is it looking at somewhere? But at any rate, this is a very attractive piece, but I just don't think that the maser concept Page 128 works very well as a coin design. So I would definitely go with number 2, and I think that we should probably all give some deference to this as that being a strong preference. Thank you. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Robert. As far as the considerations that I had regarding -- I just think in number 1 -- I think that if we do have more negative space and just the "We the People," not trying to put the inscriptions in or just whatever you guys would come up with, I think would be appropriate. And I think it would work for the coin. As it is, we don't want to try and read it. We don't want to try and make sure that someone can read it on a coin anyhow. I think that I like number 1 a little bit better than number 2 simply because it seems to be a more friendly, warm, peaceful, really nice tone to the depiction here. Number 2 does look more like a march, and I think Michael brought out the point about the person on the right where, you know, it would be putting in some other additional information in there Page 129 it might be more appropriate than another individual. But I just felt that number 1 had the tone and the direction that Septima wanted to go with in educating and reaching out. So I'm going to lean my preference more towards number 1 and have the Mint be able to accommodate that writing underneath. As far as the other goes, yes, number 7 is pretty good, you know. lot of reaching. But it -- it's going to take a And I believe Dennis also mentioned that it makes a nice compatible set. We'll have three objects for -- and one figure, just like we did in the other series. And it would complement accordingly. So before we vote, Joe, would you like to make any comments? MR. MENNA: Yes, sir. Thank you. You know, symbolism is as much an aesthetic criteria as any type of visual element. And I think the processional nature of SC-02 is not only worthy, but necessary of the subject. Ms. Clark -- you know, the gravitas of what surrounded everything that she did, the esteem that she was held in by people no less than Dr. King and just -- it's just, you know -- I Page 130 think the educational element doesn't need to be described in words. It's already there presented by books. And I just like the four primary element figures in a row, counterpointed by the diagonal flagpole and the horizontal-esque, you know, position of the flag. I just think it's a really, really strong composition. For the -- for South Carolina, I'm going to go, like -- I mean, like, really off, off, off in a different direction. much. I actually like number 4 very There's a movement in contemporary art called lowbrow pop surrealism. And you can see it in magazines, two of them in particular, Juxtapoz Magazine and Hi-Fructose. It's a movement that uses figurative elements to create very contemporary and dynamic visual stories. It's a very figurative artform, and it borders on camp at times. And I think this coin does as well, and I don't think that that's necessarily a bad thing. I'm not saying it is camp or kitsch and unworthy of the U.S. coin, but there's just a craziness about this Page 131 composition that is so radically forward-thinking. I don't think the artist intended to do something lowbrow or pop surrealistic. But I think that this element -- this reminds me of, like, you know, something from the '50s or with what -- like a mad scientist film, or something like that. But there's -- I just think it's really, really cool, art visually, just that primary element coming forward, that oversized hand, which I'm usually typically against. I think that photographic perspective is best left for photographs. Michael Angelo and all -- even up to the '60s and '70s, all visual artists, you know, before the real -- the heavy influence of photographs, it would keep forward and background elements the same size, even if they were foreshortened. So this is a very, very, very contemporary image, and I think it's pretty crazy in a cool way. THE CHAIR: Okay, Erik. Joe, thank you very much. Erik. MR. MENNA: Yes, sir. Page 132 MR. JANSEN: I have a question based on your latter comments here because I had the same kind of reaction to this one. My question to you is: The heavy outline around the guy here, do you view that as part and parcel to the effect you're calling out, or is that an artifact of the tool that was used to render this? MR. MENNA: in. I think it's deliberately drawn I think that outline would have to be part of the sculpture. MR. JANSEN: And how would you do that? Because that -- that's exactly where I come out. MR. MENNA: I would do that by creating a slight -- I would extend the sculpt of the -- say his sleeve and of his jacket and his shirt, but extend that sculpt to the border of the black line. Then I'd incuse that black line a bit, but leave a little bit of an edge. And I'm just going -- this -- I'm just, like, ad-libbing here. MR. JANSEN: MR. MENNA: Yeah. And then the natural draft that we would have to impose on the sculpt could create Page 133 that white sidewall, or something like that, or maybe not. Maybe I would just make that white sidewall, scribe in the black a little bit, and then have the draft help create that effect. MR. JANSEN: Yeah, because I'm thinking your boss would come to you and go Dyeware, dude, if you tried to use high ridgelines to make that kind of crazy glow. But with the incuse, it's brilliant, actually. MR. MENNA: MR. JANSEN: MR. MENNA: And nothing -It didn't make any sense to you. I got nothing. (Laughter.) MR. JANSEN: MR. MENNA: Thank you. No, it's -- I don't know. it -- I don't know if it'll work. MR. JANSEN: MR. MENNA: MR. JANSEN: around this guy. I -- So -- I --- I wouldn't say brilliant yet. I saw the same kind of wild glow And it creates this -- I don't know what the word you said -- kitsch or -- what was your other word? Page 134 MR. MENNA: It's pop surrealism. It's a movement -MR. JANSEN: MR. MENNA: Pop surrealism. Yeah. -- that's got, like, artists like Robert Williams -MR. JANSEN: MR. MENNA: Yeah. -- or James Jean. And these are -MR. JANSEN: MR. MENNA: Yeah. -- Bill Sienkiewicz, you know, world-famous artists who are doing this kind of stuff. MR. JANSEN: MR. MENNA: gallery scene. Yeah. And it's not the mainstream But if it's for -- it's the future, and it would be -- it's an aesthetic that would be really cool if we can embrace a little bit. MR. JANSEN: THE CHAIR: Yeah. Yeah. Certainly worth consideration. Don. MR. SCARINCI: Excuse me for a second. I'd just make one last appeal that, you know, we don't get the opportunity to -- you know, to put, you know, Page 135 African Americans on a coin, and we don't get many opportunities to put women on coins. And here we have an opportunity to do both. And I think, you know -- look, I think it's the state's recommendation. we've heard that. It's the first time today We have an opportunity to do something we don't have an opportunity to do. I think we should grab it. And when it comes to the choice of which of the three designs to select, you know, our role here is to select the best art. And you know, look, honestly, you know, six or one-half a dozen, there has to be art, right? But the -- I suspect the thinking that went on in South Carolina when they were considering which of these designs to recommend, I suspect, you know, the -- there was some thinking that probably went back to -- you know, to Martin Luther King's Birmingham Letter where he -- you know, where he talks about, you know, we've waited for 125 years. And you know, you -- we grabbed our freedom. grabbed our rights. something for it. We had to grab it. We We had to do Page 136 So her sitting there with a book and her sitting there reading, it's great. know. It's nice. was number 2. It's nice, you But number 2 got the result. It was the action. marching, you know. It It was the It was the getting attention. And I think that probably that was the conversation. I'm speculating and guessing. That was the conversation that happened in South Carolina. And I think the reason they didn't put any limitation about, you know, words like "Citizenship Schools" is the same as the reason we went back on the Anwar Sadat Congressional Gold Medal, and we said, look, don't limit Anwar Sadat as the president of Egypt. let's not limit him to that, you know. than that. I mean, He's bigger You know, he's more than that. And she's more than that. And I suspect that's why "Citizenship Schools" is not there, or else I'm going to suppose it would have been there, you know, and -- you know, because she is bigger than that. So I would make an impassioned plea for -- to go along with Design 1, 2, or 3. And of those three Page 137 designs, I would make an impassioned plea to give the state what it recommends the way it recommends it and not substitute our judgment here, you know, in the very limited time we've had to express our judgment for their judgment, which, you know, we would presume has taken place over a much longer period of time with a much wider constituency who knows the subject matter and understands the subject matter and feels the subject matter probably more than we do, right? MS. STAFFORD: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry. I was going to say Megan is the program manager for this work, has feedback, I think, directly from the folks with whom she worked, just to underscore Mr. Scarinci's point. MS. SULLIVAN: So from the liaison, I have the following comments for Design 2. "The visual of Septima Clark 'leading the charge' on the coin embodies the bravery and commitment she displayed as a leader of the Civil Rights Movement. It looks as though the four people on this coin are on a mission. Three are armed with books, while the fourth individual embodies the ultimate goal of Septima's Page 138 teachings equals citizenship for African Americans." Thank you. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Meg. Erik. MR. JANSEN: Donald, consistent with your emphasis here, if it is selected, would you move to have the text added as we've talked about "Citizen Schools"? MR. SCARINCI: No, no. That's my point. I think she's bigger than that. MR. JANSEN: So you -- MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: I think she's a symbol -So you would vote against a motion like that. MR. SCARINCI: I would -- yes, I would vote against it. MR. JANSEN: Okay. MR. SCARINCI: And I just think it's fine the way it is, my thinking being the same as my thinking was for the Anwar Sadat Gold Coin. brilliantly. And that worked That was an amazing coin. THE CHAIR: Thank you. Page 139 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Mr. Chairman, can I just -THE CHAIR: Go ahead. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: four figures? Sure. -- add one point to the I think that the artist was very astute in adding that young woman on the right. And as it was suggested, maybe she should be taken off. But I think we need her because she depicts more of an adult woman -MR. JANSEN: Continuity. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: -- and continuity. So we're going from a young girl to an older woman, and she was also teaching -MR. JANSEN: She's a next-generation leader. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: we need to have her. THE CHAIR: Okay. Correct. And I think Thank you. Thanks, Jeanne. If you would make your selections and pass those over to Greg. And while we're doing that, we will also announce the first rounds of voting while they're tabulating this last one. Page 140 MR. WEINMAN: I'll wait just a moment until all the score sheets come in so we can all do the same page. (Voting.) MR. WEINMAN: Okay. I have -- we'll start with the results of -- you want to go state-by-state, Mr. Chairman? THE CHAIR: Sure. MR. WEINMAN: Okay. Why don't we start with Connecticut and pull them back up on the board. Okay. Design Connecticut number 1 had three votes. Number 2 had six votes. Number 3 had five votes. Number 4 had two votes. Number 5 had four votes. Design 6 had five votes. Design 7 had seven votes. 6A had two votes. 7A had seven votes. Design 8 had 26 votes, which is the highest vote-getter. THE CHAIR: Did you say 28? MR. WEINMAN: THE CHAIR: Twenty-six? MR. WEINMAN: 10 had five votes. had seven votes. Twenty-six. Okay. Design 9 had one vote. Design 11 had 13 votes. 13 had one vote. Design Design 12 14 had one vote. Page 141 14A had one vote. 15 had four votes. And Design 16 had 21 votes, the number two vote-getter. THE CHAIR: Twenty-one? MS. LANIN: Meteorites hitting the submarine. I'll be -MR. WEINMAN: MR. TUCKER: Twenty-one -It's got everything. MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANIN: So we have -It's got everything. MR. WEINMAN: There are 11 members here for a maximum vote of 33, which means, arguably, you'll need 17 to a recommendation. And you have that in two of them. So once again, Design number 8 had 26. Design number 16 had 21. THE CHAIR: So they're close. Would anyone like to make a motion to accept? Erik? MR. JANSEN: I'd like to make a motion that the Committee officially makes two recommendations, specifically, one for each of the two innovation topics. Page 142 MR. WEINMAN: Second? Is there a second? THE CHAIR: Do we have a second? MR. MORAN: Second. THE CHAIR: Second by Michael. MR. WEINMAN: THE CHAIR: Any discussion? And any discussion? (No audible response). THE CHAIR: Seeing none, I have a vote to rank them as accordingly. 08 is 26 votes. Connecticut's 16 is 21 votes. And And we would submit that for their consideration. All those in favor say -MR. JANSEN: THE CHAIR: MR. JANSEN: That wasn't my motion. I thought you wanted both. No. Well, I -- that -- but that's it. MR. WEINMAN: But not to -- he didn't -- not to rank. MR. JANSEN: THE CHAIR: No rank order. Oh, okay. Just to submit them. Okay. MR. WEINMAN: Just to make two Page 143 recommendations. THE CHAIR: Okay. Okay. So that's clarified. All those is in favor signify saying aye. (Chorus of ayes.) THE CHAIR: Opposed? How many opposed do we have? Four. Dean? MR. WEINMAN: Dean is off. Dean has left the conversation. DR. KOTLOWSKI: MR. WEINMAN: Oh, I apologize. DR. KOTLOWSKI: THE CHAIR: No, I'm -- I'm in favor of the motion. It passes seven to four. MR. WEINMAN: Excellent. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, seven to four. THE CHAIR: Okay. MR. WEINMAN: Massachusetts designs. Moving right along. To Massachusetts. Design number 1 received 23 votes, which is the highest vote given. received two votes. And Number 2 Number 3 received five votes. Page 144 Number 4 received six votes. votes. Number 6 received one vote. seven votes. Number 7 received Design 8 received 12 votes. received one vote. Design 9 Design 10 received one vote. Design 11 received one vote. vote. Number 5 received three Design 12 received one Design 13 received one vote. And Design 14 received 17 votes. THE CHAIR: Okay, Greg. Thank you. And how many on MA-01? MR. WEINMAN: THE CHAIR: Okay. Number 1 received 23 votes. Twenty-three. Once again, somewhat close, but on the same token, not quite. So are there any motions that we'd like to present? MR. JANSEN: I'd make an identical motion that the Committee puts forth two equal recommendations, one for each of the two topics. MR. WEINMAN: Second? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: THE CHAIR: Second. Second? All those in favor signify saying aye. further discussion first? Any Any further discussion? Page 145 (No audible response). THE CHAIR: All those in favor signify saying aye that we submit them equally. (Chorus of ayes.) MR. WEINMAN: THE CHAIR: Opposed? Anybody else opposed? DR. KOTLOWSKI: MR. WEINMAN: I'm opposed. How many -- take -- (Crosstalk.) THE CHAIR: Okay. Let's do -- (Crosstalk.) THE CHAIR: Let's do it again. Let's try again. MR. WEINMAN: MR. JANSEN: THE CHAIR: By a show of hands. Seven to four. Okay. All those in favor of the motion presenting both equally raise your hand. One, two, three. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We have some no- voters. THE CHAIR: MR. WEINMAN: You're opposed, Dean? Ask if -- Page 146 DR. KOTLOWSKI: MR. WEINMAN: THE CHAIR: Yeah, I'm opposed. Ask who'd be opposed. Opposed? Two, three, four, five, six. MR. WEINMAN: THE CHAIR: Motion -Motion fails. And we need another motion now. like to make -- anyone entertain a motion? Would you I'll entertain a motion to accept number 01 -- MA-01. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. JANSEN: THE CHAIR: Just is -- Without a motion? Yeah. I mean, but I still -- Okay. I would -- I think we (Crosstalk.) THE CHAIR: should -- well, you don't (inaudible). But we -- if we're not going to do the same, I think you would want to at least put our recommendation and based on it. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: That was what our vote was. MR. SCARINCI: It's going to get the highest votes. MR. WEINMAN: You don't have -- Page 147 THE CHAIR: want to. Okay. You'll not -- you don't Okay. (Crosstalk.) MR. WEINMAN: THE CHAIR: MR. WEINMAN: By default is fine. Okay. Next. Okay. Moving to Maryland. Ready? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Mm-hmm. MR. WEINMAN: votes. Design number 1 received seven Design number 2 received two votes. Design number 3 received four votes. Design number 5 -- sorry -- 4 received one vote. 4A received one vote. Design number 5 received 26 votes, which is the highest vote-getter. vote. Design number 6 received one Design number 7 received 16 votes. number 8 received one vote. two votes. Design number 9 received Design number 10 received two votes. Design number 11 received one vote. received three votes. votes. Design Design number 12 Design number 13 received three Design number 14 received 10 votes. Design number 15 received 17 votes. And Page 148 THE CHAIR: Okay. Do we have any motions regarding the designs? (No audible response). THE CHAIR: Seeing none, we'll accept MD 20 - - with 26 votes, number 5. MR. WEINMAN: Okay. Okay. Hold on one second. That leaves us with -- THE CHAIR: One -- Robert, you did have a question earlier about making a motion on the stars for that Hubble on Maryland. Would you like to present that motion at this time? MR. HOGE: Sure. Well, my recommendation was actually with a different design, though. THE CHAIR: MR. HOGE: Okay. Yeah. So no -- you'll pass. But I would suggest that these things be made to look as much like stars as possible. THE CHAIR: MR. HOGE: Okay. Your -- each one is like just -- THE CHAIR: So the -- (Crosstalk.) THE CHAIR: -- as technical. That'll be Page 149 fine. MR. HOGE: I think the point of the Hubble Space Telescope is this precisioned accuracy as far as possible on the images in space. THE CHAIR: make sure. Okay. Very good. I just want to Okay. MR. HOGE: Yeah. THE CHAIR: MR. WEINMAN: Great. Move on to South Carolina. Ready? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. WEINMAN: Okay. number 1 received 21 votes. Yes. One second. Design Design number 2 received 23 votes, making it the highest vote-getter. number 3 received two votes. nine votes. Design number 4 received Designs number 5, 5A, 6, and 6A all received zero votes. votes. Design Design number 7 received 14 Design number 8 received two votes. Design number 9 received zero votes. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Greg. Would anyone like to make -- entertain -I'll entertain a motion regarding South Carolina. Page 150 (No audible response). THE CHAIR: Seeing none, we will defer to SC- 02 as our recommendation. MR. WEINMAN: THE CHAIR: A recess -And thank you, everyone, for, really, a good discussion today on our first round here. And we'll recess at this point. Now, due to some travel and so forth, the -- it's possible that the stakeholders will be here at a quarter until the hour, correct? Is that what time we were talking? MS. STAFFORD: Well, they're going to be ready for our reconvening, which is at 1:45 p.m. MR. WEINMAN: THE CHAIR: So we'll be back at 1:00? Okay. So 1:45. And we will have a thorough discussion regarding Congressional Gold Medals. Thank you. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Awesome in here is the agenda. (Crosstalk.) (Recess.) THE CHAIR: Welcome back, everyone. At this Page 151 time, we're going to move to our Congressional Gold Medal discussion. And I'd like to call on April Stafford, Chief of the Mint's Office of Design Management, to present the obverse and reverse candidate designs for the USS Indianapolis Congressional Gold Medal. April. And the stakeholders as while appropriate. MS. STAFFORD: Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much. In accordance with Public Law 115-338, the USS Indianapolis Congressional Gold Medal Act awards the Congressional Gold Medal collectively to the crew of USS Indianapolis in recognition of their perseverance, bravery, and service to the United States. Following a notable service record during which she was awarded 10 battle stars, USS Indianapolis, also known as CA-35, was attacked with missiles from a Japanese submarine and sank in 12 minutes on July 30th, 1945. only 316 men survived. Of the 1,195 who sailed, Those who made it into the Page 152 water were subjected to exposure, dehydration, and shark attacks over the course of more than five nights and four days. Our liaisons have identified preferences from this portfolio. So before I hand over the mic to our liaison to say a few words, we'll show those to you now. They have identified Obverse 7A and Reverse 7. And as I noted, we have with us today our liaison to this program, Peggy Campo with the USS Indianapolis Survivors Organization, and Sara Vladic, author and historian. Peggy, are you there? And if so, would you like to say a few words? MS. MCCALL CAMPO: Yes, I'm here, April. Thanks. Hello, everyone. I'm Peggy McCall Campo, daughter of USS Indianapolis Survivor Don McCall. father served on Indianapolis for two years. often referred to Dad as a hero. My People He was quick to correct them by saying, "I'm not a hero. I'm just a survivor. (inaudible), The heroes didn't come home." that's what the Indianapolis survivors (inaudible) Page 153 would say. Dad passed away in June 2017 at the age of 92. I'm also Secretary of the Survivors Organization, and I'm very pleased to speak with you today on their behalf. Twelve survivors remain now, and they are 92 to 97 years old. Survivors Organization Chairman Harold Bray expressed to me that he and the other men are very grateful to be acknowledged with this Congressional Gold Medal honoring their crew, especially those who perished in the sinking. I will add that this recognition is also very meaningful to the families of the survivors and of the men who were lost at sea. Now I'll introduce my friend, Sara Vladic. MS. VLADIC: Hello, everyone. My name is Sara Vladic, and I am a historian and (inaudible) USS Indianapolis. In 2003, I was tasked by the Survivors Organization as being one of their storytellers. I have since gone out and interviewed over 100 of the Indianapolis survivors, the rescue crew that saved them from the waters, and those surviving five nights Page 154 and four days in the Pacific. And I have written a book that was released in 2018 and a New York Times best seller. So these men have charged me with making sure their story is done and done well. And I'm very honored to be part of it and help in any way I can. THE CHAIR: Thank you. April. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. We'll start with the obverse designs. Design 1 depicts USS Indianapolis sharing -- shelling targets in the Pacific Theater during World War II. The 10 battle stars earned by Indianapolis are displayed around the ship. The four-star flag highlights Admiral Spruance's service and Indianapolis's status as his flagship. Inscriptions are "USS Indianapolis" and "Act of Congress 2018." Obverse 2 features USS Indianapolis sailing through the Pacific Ocean. Her history is told through her 10 battle stars, the Admiral's flag, and her hull number. The inscriptions "USS Indianapolis CA-35," "1932," her in-service year, and "1945" are Page 155 seen below the ship. The additional inscriptions "1195 On Board" and "316 Survived" recall the fateful day of her sinking. Obverse 3 portrays a head-on view of USS Indianapolis surrounded by a life preserver as a border element. Her 10 battle stars are included, along with the inscriptions "USS Indianapolis" and "Act of Congress 2018." Obverse 4 depicts a head-on view of USS Indianapolis underway surrounded by the 10 battle stars she was awarded. Obverse 5 features USS Indianapolis with a survivor in the foreground while a PBY-5A Catalina, one of the rescue planes, flies overhead. stars arc across the top border. Ten battle The inscription "316 Survived" is seen above the ship. Obverse 7 and 7A depict USS Indianapolis with her 10 battle stars. Interspersed among a border of rivets are the inscriptions "USS Indianapolis CA-35" and her dates of service, "1932-1945." The additional inscription "Act of Congress 2018" is also included. Design 7A seen here removes the clouds and Page 156 the "Act of Congress" inscription and includes an Admiral's four-star flag, noting her status as a flagship, along with the Marine Corps and Navy emblems. Again, Obverse 7A is the preferred obverse of the liaison. Obverse 8 features a head-on silhouette of USS Indianapolis surrounded by her battle stars. The top portion of the outer ring is recessed and includes the inscription "One Thousand One Hundred Ninety Five Sailed" while the bottom portion is raised and includes the inscription "Three Hundred Sixteen Survived." The additional inscriptions "USS Indianapolis CA-35" and "Act of Congress 2018" are also included. Obverse 9 represents USS Indianapolis with a close-up of her hull and features both the traditional rivets and hull number 35. arced across the top. Her 10 battle stars are Inscriptions are "USS Indianapolis CA-35" and "1195 Sailed 316 Survived." Obverse 11 depicts USS Indianapolis underway. Her hull number is inscribed in the field. Her 10 battle stars flank the ship in the border while the Page 157 inscriptions "Act of Congress 2018" and "USS Indianapolis CA-35" arc across the top and bottom. Obverse 12 depicts USS Indianapolis cruising in the ocean. The inscriptions "USS Indianapolis" and "Act of Congress 2018" arc across the sky. Across the bottom of the design are her 10 battle stars and the Admiral's flag. Moving on to the reverse designs. Reverse 1 depicts symbols of hope from the tragic attack on USS Indianapolis, the spotlight from the rescue vessel USS Cecil J. Doyle flanked by angel wings. Many of the survivors compared the sighting of the first plane to spot the survivors to that of seeing an angel, while the ship's spotlight seemed like a light shining down from the heavens. The composition includes the inscription "879 Lost at Sea." Reverse 2 depicts the survivors' view from a lift raft as a PBY-5A Catalina begins a water landing. The plane rescued 53 crewmembers before additional survivors were picked up by the rescue ships. Reverse 3 depicts a sea-level view of the USS Indianapolis survivors as a PBY-5A Catalina plane Page 158 begins to land on the water, providing rescue to 53 of the survivors. Inscriptions include "1195 Sailed, 316 Survived" and "July 30, 1945." Reverse 4 features in-flight views of two of the key aircraft involved in the rescue, a PV-1 Ventura and a PBY-5A Catalina. The Navy and Marine Corps emblems flank the design with the inscriptions "July 30, 1945," "Still at Sea," and "Act of Congress 2018" interspersed throughout the design. Reverse 5 features the search light from the USS Cecil J. Doyle shining into the sky providing hope for the survivors in the water and a location to other ships headed to the rescue site. Included inscriptions are "July 30, 1945," and "879 Still at Sea." Reverse 6 centrally depicts the Navy and Marine Corps emblems, representing the servicemembers on board USS Indianapolis. A continual ring of the SOS distress signal in Morse Code circles the border, recalling those who are still lost at sea. Inscriptions are "Silent but Not Forgotten" and "July 30, 1945." Page 159 Reverse 7 depicts a group of survivors clinging to a raft. They've spotted either a plane or the USS Cecil J. Doyle giving them renewed hope for their rescue. The PV-1 Ventura, the PBY-5A Catalina, and the Doyle were all essential to critical moments in the rescue. Additional inscriptions include "1195 Sailed 316 Survived" and "Act of Congress 2018." Again, Reverse 7 is the preferred reverse of the liaison. Reverse 8 portrays an empty life jacket in the water, representing those lost at sea while the two planes primarily involved in the rescue, a PV-1 Ventura and PBY-5A Catalina, are seen overhead. Around the border are the inscriptions "July 30, 1945" and "1195 Sailed - 316 Survived." Reverse 9 depicts the same rescue planes as in Obverse 8, but with survivors in the water seeing rescuers at hand. Reverse 10 features a compass rose overlaying a map of the last course undertaken by USS Indianapolis, also known as the petty (ph) route. Directional markings are found around the border Page 160 interspersed with the inscriptions "1195 On Board," "316 Survived," "July 30, 1945," and "Still at Sea." And finally, Reverse 11 depicts a silhouette of USS Indianapolis superimposed over a map of the petty route. right. A compass rose is positioned in the top Directional markings are found around the border interspersed with the inscriptions "1195 On Board," "316 Survived," "July 30, 1945," and "Still at Sea." Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIR: Thank you, April. Are there any technical questions from the Committee about the designs before we begin general discussion? (No audible response). THE CHAIR: Seeing none, let's be -- MR. SCARINCI: Did you say which designs the constituent group wanted? THE CHAIR: 7A obverse. MR. SCARINCI: THE CHAIR: Which one? 7A. MR. SCARINCI: 7A obverse. Page 161 THE CHAIR: Reverse 07. MR. SCARINCI: MS. VLADIC: 7A obverse. Pardon me. This is Sara. It was actually 7, not 7A, for the obverse. THE CHAIR: Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: So it's number 7 obverse. And what's the reverse? THE CHAIR: 7. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you, Sara. MR. SCARINCI: So 7 and 7? I appreciate that. Could I -- I mean, Mr. Chairman, maybe we could start -THE CHAIR: You need your mic, Don. MR. SCARINCI: Oh, I'm sorry. And there was -- and just to be clear, there was no second choice for this constituent group. That was their choice, and they're clear about that as their choice? MR. WEINMAN: They're on the phone. MS. STAFFORD: I believe so, yes. (Crosstalk.) THE CHAIR: Both Peggy and Sara are on the Page 162 phone. MR. SCARINCI: Scarinci. Peggy and Sara, this is Donald Are you clear on 7 and 7 as your choice? Was anything else close to your consideration, or is that the one that your group, you know, really feels strongly about? MS. MCCALL CAMPO: Well, this is Peggy. And I just want to say that we like a lot of these designs. But as we looked at them and we shared them with our chairman, Harold Bray, we just kept going back to 07 for the obverse and 07 for the reverse. And if the Committee, though, has other thoughts, we -- I think we appreciate hearing them. But that's what we're thinking for right now, yes. MR. SCARINCI: THE CHAIR: Okay. Thank you. Thank you. So with that -- go ahead, Michael. MR. MORAN: I'll interject something here. If you go with 7 as opposed to 7A, you'd have "Act of Congress" on both obverse and reverse. That'll have to be dealt with. MS. MCCALL CAMPO: Correct. We noticed that, Page 163 actually, in just these last revisions. MR. MORAN: So yeah -- It's easy enough to drop off of the obverse and give you a clear field there with going on to the ship. I'd ask you to make one other consideration between 7 and 7A. And that is 7A without the clouds gives you a much sharper, clearly defined ship with good negative space, whereas if you put the smoke in the background or the clouds, either one, you're not going to have a sharp design, I don't think, in terms of visual appeal. MS. MCCALL CAMPO: Okay. (Crosstalk.) THE CHAIR: Now, with -- MR. MORAN: -- from an artistical perspective. I know -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Joe. MR. MORAN: Go ahead. MR. MENNA: And something we've talked about -- and we've talked about this at the Mint. respectfully disagree with that. I I think if the clouds are treated in a very low relief with a nice Page 164 soft touch and that ship is nice and bold and strongly depicted, I think the contrast between the two would be striking. And I think that the pattern of clouds, the silhouette of the clouds as they diagonally go up to the right of the coin -- of the medal provide a more interesting negative space silhouette -UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. MENNA: -- shape than just the straight line going across the horizon. think you're wrong. Yep. So I'm not saying I I'm just saying I feel differently. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: ask this question about 07? Excuse me. Can I just Don't we see a little bit of land or -- underneath those clouds onto the -MR. MENNA: I think those are more clouds. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Is that more clouds that go all -MR. MENNA: Yeah. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. MENNA: On the horizon, yeah. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. WEINMAN: -- the way to the sea? Okay. Thank you. There would have been no land Page 165 out there. MR. MENNA: Yeah. I thought it was very poetic, actually. THE CHAIR: Go ahead, Don. MR. SCARINCI: I'm going to try this anyway. I'm going to try doing this anyway because, I mean, I'm -- quite honestly, nothing really here stands out for me. And I don't know. If people feel passionately, you could vote this down. But you know, I'd like to make a motion that we -- you know, that we -- you know, subject to the adjustment of the "Act of Congress" slogan that we adopt -- you know, that we vote to approve Obverse 7 and Reverse 7. THE CHAIR: MR. JANSEN: MR. WEINMAN: MR. JANSEN: THE CHAIR: We have a motion. Second. You have a motion on the table. Second. Joe, do you have another additional opinion on both those designs? MR. MENNA: No, we were conferring that -- I was conferring with my boss. THE CHAIR: I missed the motion. That's okay. Reverse 7 and Page 166 Obverse 7. Do you have anything further to say regarding the elements? MR. MENNA: No, sir. THE CHAIR: No. No, sir. So we have a motion on the table. MR. JANSEN: Second. THE CHAIR: And a second by Erik. So we are voting to adopt both Obverse 7 and Reverse 7. And any discussion? Robert. MR. HOGE: A little observation. I think probably almost anyone who's aware of the Indianapolis probably is aware of the fact that what it's most famous for and known for is the fact that so many of the sailors got eaten by sharks -- anybody who has seen the film Jaws, for instance. And this is something that -- I don't know if we want to consider it -- but maybe showing a shark fin or two. It might be kind of gruesome, but -(Crosstalk.) THE CHAIR: He has some of those Canadian coins that have the shark on them, right? Page 167 MS. LANIN: MR. HOGE: No, no, no, no, no. So it's just a thought. (Crosstalk.) MS. VLADIC: that. -- strongly encourage against This is Sara speaking and -THE CHAIR: MR. HOGE: Exactly. All right. THE CHAIR: Exactly, Sara. MS. VLADIC: It's really just not something the families want. THE CHAIR: Right. MS. STAFFORD: Sarah, you had several Committee members shaking their heads. (Crosstalk.) MS. STAFFORD: THE CHAIR: But thank you for confirming. Yes. Thank you, Sara. Any other discussion? Dennis. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would just like to, since we're on the public record, commend the artist for number 1. That's -- Page 168 MR. JANSEN: Obverse or reverse? MR. TUCKER: Obverse 1. It's a very visually dramatic design and focuses on the ship in action rather than its tragic end. And I think it's a view that I've never seen before on a Congressional Gold Medal, that kind of aerial three-quarter profile, if you will. done. MR. JANSEN: Yeah. MR. TUCKER: So I think it's very nicely And I think the artist deserves public commendation. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Dennis. Erik. Oh, sorry, Mary. MR. JANSEN: I'll get you. I'd make a similar comment to the artist on Reverse Design 5. This Committee has often expressed a preference towards symbology, and I see that design as extraordinarily symbolically powerful. THE CHAIR: Thank you. Mary. MS. LANIN: And I would like to go on record Page 169 to congratulate the artist for Obverse 9, potentially paired with the artist who did Obverse -- Reverse 5. I think that, graphically, those convey hope and also the elements of the tragedy. And I just think that that would make a tremendous Congressional Gold Medal. Thank you. THE CHAIR: I would echo Mary's comment there regarding those two designs. I think it's very -- we were kind of talking about it very similar to the USO concept that we did on the -MS. LANIN: OSS. THE CHAIR: OSS. I'm sorry. (Crosstalk.) THE CHAIR: Yeah, yeah. (Crosstalk.) THE CHAIR: No. But no, I mean, it was similar, but the artists do deserve that credit regarding that. So we have a motion on the table. second -MR. MENNA: Mr. -- THE CHAIR: Go ahead. We have a Page 170 MR. MENNA: -- your question. For clarity, you're talking about removing the "Act of Congress" from the obverse, correct, just so we can put that in -THE CHAIR: That's correct. MR. MENNA: -- our notes? THE CHAIR: That's correct. Thank you. Donald. MR. SCARINCI: We can also, by the way -- I mean, look, I happen to agree with you if this were my medal, but it's not, you know. would be an awesome medal. THE CHAIR: I mean, 9-5 -- it So -- Yeah. MR. SCARINCI: -- what we could do, you know, is, you know, we can vote to approve. MR. WEINMAN: And you know -- You're not approving. You're recommending. MR. SCARINCI: Recommend -- vote to recommend. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: their choice of either. Nice catch. We could vote to recommend And then they can talk about Page 171 it -- you know, give them something to talk about unless -MR. WEINMAN: Is that -- MR. SCARINCI: -- unless the constituent group is -UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: Yes. -- completely ruling out the concept of 9 -- the preference of an Obverse 9 mated with a 5. THE CHAIR: Well, I think that if you'd like to -- and Erik has already said that he would agree. So if you'd like to submit them both because I think that would then give both Peggy and Sara, I think, some leeway in our opinion as well. MR. WEINMAN: Are you amending your motion? MR. SCARINCI: THE CHAIR: I will amend the motion -- Yeah. MR. SCARINCI: -- to -- you know, to recommend that -THE CHAIR: 7 and 7; 9 and 5. MR. SCARINCI: THE CHAIR: Right. Okay. Page 172 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: And I'll second that. THE CHAIR: Okay. Any further discussion? Seeing none -MS. STAFFORD: I'm sorry. Just because we do have our liaisons on the phone, I just would like to take a moment, Peggy and Sara, to ensure you understand what's being put on the table. In addition to supporting the obverse and reverse preferences you came into the meeting with, the Committee, it seems, is urging you to consider Obverse -MR. WEINMAN: Potentially. It's -- they haven't voted yet. MS. STAFFORD: -- urging you to consider Obverse 9 -UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MS. STAFFORD: Obverse 9. -- and Reverse 5 because of the very impactful symbolic qualities of this pairing, that they feel it would be an incredibly striking combination to communicate the -- about this -MR. JANSEN: MS. STAFFORD: The tragic --- subject matter. Page 173 So I don't know if you have any questions about that, Peggy and Sara, if you want to engage in a little discussion. But they're about to just vote on that. MS. MCCALL CAMPO: 05. I really love that. This is Peggy. I love R- But -- and so yes. I like that very much that we still have that option. And I also liked -- the other one we're talking about now is Obverse 9, correct? THE CHAIR: Obverse 9 and Reverse 5. MS. STAFFORD: Yes. MS. MCCALL CAMPO: was awesome, too. Right. And I think that I mean, those are great images. had some really great images to refer to there. We So I like that idea very much. So if you would like to vote to recommend all of those, that would be great then. And we can still have the opportunity to discuss that again and narrow it down, correct? THE CHAIR: Correct. Okay. Anything additional at this point, Peggy? MS. MCCALL CAMPO: Not that I can think of. Page 174 Sara, is there anything from you? MS. VLADIC: No, I don't think so. THE CHAIR: Okay. Mary. MS. LANIN: Peggy and Sara, I'd just like to give you, like, a 30-second background on the OSS Congressional Gold Medal that we did. We had a large number of designs when those came out and including some preferences by the stakeholders. And they were very complicated, and we couldn't really agree on things. And I was looking at the designs and said some -- this would make a great movie poster. So they came back at the following meeting. We refined the designs that we had. And ultimately, what we picked for the OSS was clean, it was simple, and it was very, very powerful. And it was, I think, probably one of the better Congressional Gold Medal that we have ever produced. And the characteristics of Obverse 9 and Reverse 5 really reminded me of that Congressional Gold Medal. And so that's just all I want to say. It's not that I dishonor your -- it's -- your interest in 7 and 7. But really consider 9 and 5, please. Page 175 Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: And Peggy, you know, if I may add -- this is Donald again -- if I may simply add, the reason this -- it stands out is because when you look at the designs in the portfolio, you know, quite honestly, we could sit here for the next hour and debate the nuances of the variations of everything else. And you know, honestly, your selection of 7 and 7 is just -- you know, is certainly just as good as everything else. So we might as well go with 7 and 7. But if you want something that's going to really stand out, pop, and be special, and have an emotional appeal and be different, you know, what does stand out in this portfolio is the pairing of 9 and 5. And I think that's what you're hearing us tell you, you know. So you know, rather than to have us spend an hour talking about this, this is really simple. This is a simple presentation because there's really only two different genres of designs for you to really consider. One is the traditional. That is the one that you seem to prefer right now, which is 7 and 7. Page 176 It's just as good as anything else. Or you can do something, you know, that, if you think about it a little bit and mull it over, has a much more emotional impact and a much more powerful medal artistically. So you know, and I realize that's not -- you know, that, you know, for people not used to seeing medals, you know, at first blush, that might not be as obvious. But maybe in -- you know, maybe when you go back and take another look, people in your organization might actually see what we see and prefer that. So you asked for our judgment. We short- circuited the process a touch for you if people vote on this motion. And you know, that's our judgment based on the portfolio. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Don. And so we have a motion. discussion. We've had I'd like to take a vote. All those in favor of the motion, signify saying aye. (Chorus of ayes.) THE CHAIR: Opposed? Page 177 (No audible response). THE CHAIR: Opposed one. MR. WEINMAN: THE CHAIR: Okay. Motion carries. Motion carries. Moving right along. And Peggy and Sara, thank you very much for your input. And I'm sure that you'll be satisfied with either selection that you make. And it'll be a true tribute to your -- to the USS Indianapolis. So thanks for being with us. MS. MCCALL CAMPO: Thank you very much for having us. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you so much, Peggy and Sara. MS. MCCALL CAMPO: THE CHAIR: Okay. Goodbye. Thank you. Back to April and our -- as our Chief of the Mint's Office of Design Management to present the obverse and reverse candidate designs for the Chinese-American Veterans of World War II Congressional Gold Medal. April. Page 178 MS. STAFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Public Law 115-337, the Chinese-American Veterans of World War II Congressional Gold Medal Act awards a Congressional Gold Medal collectively to Chinese-American veterans in recognition of their dedicated service during World War II. Chinese Americans have served the United States in every conflict since the Civil War and distinguished themselves in World War II. During that war, they served in every theater and every branch of the Service and earned citations for their heroism and honorable service, including the Medal of Honor. Despite facing immense discrimination at the time, as many as 20,000 Chinese Americans served in the military during World War II. Approximately 40 percent of those who served were not United States citizens due to the laws that denied citizenship to persons of Chinese descent. Chinese Americans, although small in numbers, made important contributions to the World War II effort. They are known for their role in the 14th Air Force, widely known as the Flying Tigers. Page 179 Additionally, many Chinese-American women served the Women's Army Corps, the Army Air Forces, and the United States Naval Reserve Women's Reserve. Some became pilots, air traffic controllers, flight trainers, weather forecasters, occupational therapists, and nurses. The United States remains indebted to the bravery, valor, and dedication that the ChineseAmerican veterans of World War II displayed. The commitment and sacrifice of Chinese Americans demonstrates a highly commendable sense of patriotism in the face of discrimination. Designs were developed in consultation with our liaison, Major General Robert Lee, retired, who is an advisor for the Chinese-American Veterans of World War II Recognition Project. In order to represent the breadth of Chinese-American veteran service, artists were asked to consider that Chinese Americans, including women, served in every branch of the military. of the war. Additionally, they served in all theaters So artists were asked to try to include an M4 Sherman tank, an Iowa-class battleship, and a P- Page 180 40 plane to illustrate these veterans' contributions on land, on the sea, and in the air. Because the USS Missouri was the location of the Japanese Surrender Ceremony on September 2nd, 1945, artists were asked to place the ship's number, 63, on the Iowa-class battleships in the design. Act of Congress 2018, Proudly Served as Americans, and Chinese-American Veterans of World War II were provided as potential inscriptions. Please note that the hyphens currently featured in the inscriptions for Chinese American will be removed. We're fortunate to have with us Major General Robert Lee with us today should any questions be addressed. preferences. But first, I'd like to show the liaison's Here they are. Obverse 7 shows the full breadth of service in the depictions of representatives from all six branches of Service and a female figure with some of the figures looking toward the viewer. Reverse 6 features an M4 Sherman tank, an Iowa-class battleship, and a P-40 plane. I would note that this reverses their preference, but they have Page 181 requested that a border element of an -- of a separate reverse design be added to this reverse. And we have just a mock-up for you so that you could see that. And we can bring it up later as well. But this would be the preferred reverse representation of our liaison. So with that, Major General Robert Lee, would you like to say a few words and perhaps introduce your team? MAJOR GENERAL LEE: Yes. Thank you very much, April. First of all, I'm Major General Robert Lee, United States Army, retired. And it was a pleasure working with the team from the United States Mint, April and Vanessa, in going through the fabulous designs. I wanted this commission to also realize that we had a large diversity because the veterans were diverse serving in every Service. I would like to introduce Major General Darryll Wong, United States Air Force, retired; then Major General Stephen Tom, United States Army, Page 182 retired; Major General William Chen, United States Army, retired; Mr. Ed Gor, who is the chair for the Chinese American Citizenship Alliance. Unfortunately, our Naval representatives, Rear Admiral Jonathan Yuen and Commander Evelyn Moy -- we did have a female representative on the design committee -- could not attend due to travel. And we were most fortunate to also have on our design committee the former Director of the United States Mint, Mr. Ed Moy. And so we -- it was tough -- a lot of good designs. But as April stated in the narrative that we sent to the artists, we believe that, with some additional modifications, the people on the front -and that we got from former Director Ed Moy -- people first. The intended audience for this will be the descendants of the Chinese-American World War II veterans. So they'll be facing this coin with all the servicemembers facing them. Because you have all the services there, it's evident that they served in every theater. You don't -- we don't have to state that. And from all the servicemembers that they served and Page 183 fought on -- in the air, on land, and sea. So we went with platforms and objects on the reverse and people on the obverse. And we appreciate the slight changes that artists will be willing to make for the minor correction. For example, the rifle by the soldier should be an M1 Garand rifle. Chinese Americans were officers. carbine. Very few And that's a So that represents, really, more of the majority of the Army World War II veterans ChineseAmerican descent. So we're looking forward to your questions from the varied members of the Committee that you might have on our choices. Thank you. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Major General. Also, I'd like to call on Mint Director David J. Ryder for several remarks. DIRECTOR RYDER: I'll just use that microphone. It's going to be very quick. But first of all, gentlemen, thank you for your service. (Applause.) Page 184 DIRECTOR RYDER: My mother served in China as a Naval nurse on the ship Hope during an encephalitis outbreak in China. I've been to China maybe 50 to 60 times, probably more. I'm a big supporter of this coin, of this Congressional Gold Medal. I couldn't think of a better representation for us to help design this product. I'm a huge supporter of it, and I congratulate you for bringing Ed in. And well, Ed and I go back a long ways, several White Houses. But most importantly, I want to say thank you for all your service. You guys have to be applauded and congratulated for all the good things that you're doing, and this is one of the best. So thank you. THE CHAIR: Thank you. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Thank you. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Thank you, UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Thank you, Director. Director. THE CHAIR: April, anything else at this Page 185 point? MS. STAFFORD: No, sir. Just I'll move through the portfolio with the descriptions. Yes, starting with the obverse designs. Obverse 1 depicts two Chinese-American veterans -- one male, an enlisted Army infantryman; and one female, a field nurse -- with a star-filled field behind them. Both figures are shown looking into the distance solemnly holding their hands over their hearts. Obverse 2 centrally features a World War II Chinese-American soldier and nurse. Obverse 3 centrally features three World War II Chinese-American veterans across the mid-section of the medal. From the left are an airman, a soldier, and a field nurse. Below the trio, an M4 Sherman tank sits in a landscape, and flying overhead are two P-40 Warhawks of the Flying Tigers Squadron. Obverses 4 and 4A portray an arrangement of World War II Chinese-American veterans representing all six of the U.S. military services, an Iowa-class battleship, a Flying Tigers P-40 Warhawk, and a land Page 186 promontory represent the land, sea, and air that they fought on and in. This is Design 4, which additionally features a servicewoman, and 4A. Obverse 5 represents the Chinese Americans who fought in all theaters, in all services, and on land, sea, and in the air. Depicted is an Iowa-class ship and a P-40 Warhawk aircraft from the Flying Tigers Squadron with a bit of land on the right side - you can see it there -- evoking their land duties. An additional inscription is "Distinguished in Every Theater, In Every Service." Obverse 6 features an Iowa-class battleship, an M4 Sherman tank, and a P-40 Warhawk aircraft from the Flying Tigers to highlight that Chinese Americans fought in all theaters with all services on land, sea, and in the air. Obverse 7, our liaison's preference, depicts Chinese-American servicemen and a nurse representing all U.S. Service branches in World War II and highlighting that they fought in every theater with honor. Additional inscriptions include "Distinguished Service" and "Proudly Served on Land Sea & In the Page 187 Air." Some minor changes the liaisons have requested would be, first, to replace the inscription with "Proudly Served as Americans;" as our liaison noted, change the rifle to an M1 rifle; and we would just be sure that the Army Air Force's helmet would have the appropriate goggles on the top of the helmet that would -- to make it historically accurate -- so minor changes there. The most, I think, substantive one for your awareness would be the change to the inscription. Obverse 8 features a beach landing with Chinese-American infantrymen supported by an M4 Sherman tank. The USS Iowa is on the horizon, and a P-40 Warhawk used by the Flying Tigers is overhead. Six stars represent the six branches of the U.S. military in which Chinese-American veterans served with distinction and honor. Obverse 9 features four Chinese-American veterans represented by uniform -- representing by uniform all six of the military branches. In World War II, people serving in different military Page 188 organizations sometimes wore similar or even identical uniforms. So the aim by the artists in this design is that, by making the uniforms as general as possible, people in all of the services would be able to see themselves in the design. There are six starts, one for each of the military branches inscribed. Obverse 10 depicts three Chinese-American veterans -- an Army Air Force pilot, a nurse who could be with the Army or Navy, and an infantryman standing proudly with a World War II-era American flag behind them. The design represents how Chinese Americans distinguished themselves by serving in all six branches of the military. Obverse 11 depicts all six branches of the military in which Chinese Americans served in World War II. Their depictions rise into the sky where their bravery and patriotism shine for all. Obverses 12 and 13 feature fenghuang, a mythological bird found in Chinese mythology that reigns over all other birds. It is commonly called the Chinese phoenix and is often described as a composite of many birds, just as the Chinese-American Page 189 veterans comprise members of all branches of the Armed Forces. At one time, it was said to have both male and female attributes, which also represents that both Chinese-American men and women served in World War II. Two of the Chinese phoenix's main qualities are virtue and loyalty. Around the Chinese phoenix are a battleship, an M4 Sherman tank, and P-40 Warhawks. This is Obverse 12 and 13. Obverse 14 depicts tanks being loaded on a transport ship, representing the service of Chinese Americans on land and sea during World War II. These transport ships were used to carry troops and logistics to all theaters of the war. Above the ships fly three P-40 Warhawks, depicting the service of Chinese Americans in the air. Obverse 15 portrays and Army nurse with an expression of patriotic pride alongside a pilot outfitted in flight gear and Navy and Coast Guard sailors in front of the background of a 48-star American flag. P-40 Warhawks are in a V flight formation above the Iowa-class battleship and an M4 Sherman tank. Page 190 Moving on to the reverses. Reverse 1 sees an Iowa-class battleship based on the USS Missouri speeding along, an M-40 Sherman battle tank leaving behind a trail of incused tread tracks, and a P-40 Warhawk flying in the foreground. An additional raised inscription reading "Proud to Serve as Americans" is arced at the top. And below it are six stars representing the six branches of the military. Reverses 2 and 2A depict land, air, and sea in a stylized manner reflective of the heritage of the Chinese-American veterans of World War II. Inscriptions are "Land Air Sea" and "Proud to Be an American." This is Design 2. Design 2a additionally features a P-40 Warhawk, an M4 Sherman tank, and an Iowa-class battleship. Reverse 3 centrally features four ChineseAmerican veterans across the mid-section of the medal. From the left are a Marine, a Navy officer, a Merchant Marine, and a Coast Guardsman. At the bottom, an Iowa-class battleship sails forward. At the top, a 48-star American flag flies behind the men. Reverses 4 and 5 centrally feature a 48-star Page 191 flag flying above the additional inscription "Proud to Serve" with clouds in the background. Chinese Americans were proud to be Americans first before ancestry or ethnicity. Design 4 is encircled with the additional inscriptions of the six branches of Service. And I'll note that this is the very border that the liaisons had requested be applied to their preferred reverse. Speaking of preferred reverse, Reverse 6 features an Iowa-class battleship, an M4 Sherman tank, and a P-40 Warhawk from the Flying Tigers showcased in front of a World War II-era American flag. Included inscriptions are "In Every Service in Every Theater" and "Proud to Serve as An American." So this is the liaison's preference, but it would be shown with an outer border. we can call that image up. So I'll ask if For this reverse, we have already removed the inscription "Proud to Serve as An American," which showed in the original, and replaced it with -- no, I'm sorry. MS. SULLIVAN: It's -- I have to close this. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. That's all right. Page 192 MS. SULLIVAN: I have it up on my screen. MS. STAFFORD: Sure. So I'll pause while we wait for that. is. MS. SULLIVAN: It's not letting me do it. MS. STAFFORD: Technology. MS. SULLIVAN: I know. All right. There it Whoo-hoo. MS. STAFFORD: All right. So we removed the inscriptions "Proud to Serve as An American" and "In Every Service in Every Theater" because the obverse -the preferred obverse covers those sentiments. The text, of course, to represent the six Service branches is accomplished by the addition of the border. And some other very minor tweaks that the liaisons pointed out -- the aircraft should have Army Air Forces roundels on the bottom of the wings, a request -okay, they are there -- a request to add 63 to the battleship, and remove the antenna at the front of the battleship. Okay. So those are all represented in this image. So this is probably the most accurate representation of what the liaison's requesting edits would be. Page 193 All right. designs, Reverse 7. Moving back to our candidate Reverse 7 centrally features an eagle below the raised letters of the additional inscription "Proud to Serve as Americans" and circled by a stylized wreath of laurel leaves against a stippled background. Reverses 8 and 8A features Chinese-American veterans representing each of the six branches of the military with a World War II-era American flag in the background. The hands on their hearts evoke the patriotism and loyalty of the Chinese-American men and women who served. While the additional inscription of "Proud to Serve as Americans" is above the six stars in Design 8, the inscriptions "Valor Honor Loyalty" and "Americans First" are inscribed in Design 8A. Reverses 9 and 9A portray an M4 Sherman tank, the USS Iowa, and a P-40 Warhawk, representing land, sea, and air. In Design 9, the inscription "Proud to Serve" conveys that Chinese-American veterans were patriotic Americans who felt compelled to serve their country, while the additional inscription "Proud to Serve as Americans" communicates a similar idea in Page 194 Design 9A. Reverses 10 and 10A depict an Iowa-class battleship flanked by two P-40 Warhawk Flying Tigers warplanes on either side. In the foreground, two M4 Sherman tanks are in profile facing outward. The design emphasizes how Chinese Americans fought in all theaters of operation during the war, and this is further emphasized by the additional inscriptions. This is Design 10. Design 10A, they have two M4 Sherman tanks and are in a three-quarter view facing outward. Reverses 11, 11A, and 11B prominently features six full plum blossoms, symbolizing resilience and perseverance in the face of adversity. Here, the six blossoms also represent the six branches of the military. Also shown are a P-40 Warhawk, an M4 Sherman tank, and an Iowa-class battleship to denote their service on land, in the air, and on the sea. So this is Design 11, 11A, and 11B. And finally, Designs 12 and 12A remember the contributions of the Chinese-American veterans of World War II to the allied victory. The three Page 195 environments of land, air, and sea in which the brave veterans fought are presented within a ring of 48 stars, symbolizing the country at the time. Design 12. This is And 12A additionally depicts the military vehicles used by Chinese-American veterans. Mr. Chair. THE CHAIR: Thank you, April. And once again, thank you, Major General Robert Lee, for being here with us. I have a little bit of a connection. I've been a proud sponsor in Pittsburgh of the Organization of Chinese Americans for over 25 years. And I've worked in -- for some of the youth scholarships at the University of Pittsburgh for the OCA as well. I've been a proud supporter of the organization. DIRECTOR RYDER: And General, I'm -- I neglected to say one thing to you guys. The United States Mint workforce, which consists of about 1,600 people, is 30 -- I believe -- am I right -- 35 percent -UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: DIRECTOR RYDER: Veterans. -- veterans. And if you Page 196 guys want to come to one of the facilities once this coin be struck, you have an open invitation. MAJOR GENERAL LEE: Thank you, sir. Thank you. THE CHAIR: Very good. It doesn't get any better than that. Okay. discussion. Moving right along into our And as you all know, this is Erik's final portfolio review, and I would like to kick it off for Erik, okay? Erik, it's all yours. MR. JANSEN: point for all of us. Well, I'll try to keep it to the I would like to make a motion that we unilaterally accept Obverse 7 with modifications that April described, along with Reverse 6 -- I think it's been tagged A -- with the modifications that the perimeter and otherwise in the various images as the Committee's sole recommendation. MR. SCARINCI: And I would love to have the privilege of seconding that for two reasons. (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: First, to second Erik's last Page 197 motion on the Committee. (Crosstalk.) (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: And just as important as that, to have the privilege and the honor to support a design that Ed Moy assisted in creating. And I served on this Committee when Ed Moy was the Director of the Mint. I had that pleasure. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: And -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: Ed Moy -- -- too. And so, you know, I know that they've received good advice. And with the changes that you've all made, I think the medal makes a lot of sense. Without the changes, I wasn't sure where we were going with this. So I -- you know, I appreciate the privilege to second this motion. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Don. Any other discussion? Could you bring that reverse back up there? I just wanted to ask -- were there six stars in that? If there aren't, did you want six? I counted Page 198 -MR. JANSEN: THE CHAIR: There are. There are? Okay. They're all there? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: THE CHAIR: Okay. Yes. With that, any further discussion? Robert. MR. HOGE: I would like to commend our liaisons as a group because of the difficulty. are all really beautiful designs. portfolio. These This is a lovely And I think making your decision, which I feel is an excellent one, probably was a very difficult process. MAJOR GENERAL LEE: MR. HOGE: It was. Yeah, I imagine. Very, very lovely pieces, and I commend you. THE CHAIR: Thank you, Robert. Anything further? If not, I'll entertain a vote. All those in favor of the motion made by Erik, second by Don, please signify saying aye. Page 199 (Chorus of ayes.) THE CHAIR: Opposed? (No audible response). THE CHAIR: Unanimously carries. Congratulations. MAJOR GENERAL LEE: THE CHAIR: Thank you. So at this time, is there any other additional business to come before us today? (No audible response). THE CHAIR: If none, our next meeting is currently scheduled for Tuesday, October the 15th, 2019. Okay. If there's no further discussion or business to come before the Committee, I'll entertain a motion to adjourn. MR. JANSEN: THE CHAIR: MR. HOGE: THE CHAIR: So moved. So moved -- Erik. Second. All those in favor signify by saying aye. (Chorus of ayes.) THE CHAIR: And Robert. Be safe. Page 200 Pass this. MR. JANSEN: I know when it's time to go. (Applause.) (Whereupon, the meeting was concluded.) Page 201 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, NATALIA THOMAS, the officer before whom the foregoing proceedings were taken, do hereby certify that any witness(es) in the foregoing proceedings, prior to testifying, were duly sworn; that the proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting by a qualified transcriptionist; that said digital audio recording of said proceedings are a true and accurate record to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. NATALIA THOMAS Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia Page 202 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER I, KARYNN WILLMAN, do hereby certify that this transcript was prepared from the digital audio recording of the foregoing proceeding, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. KARYNN WILLMAN