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1 United States Mint Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting Wednesday, September 18, 2013 The Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee met by teleconference, at 2:11 p.m., Gary Marks, Chair, presiding. 2 CCAC Members Present: Gary Marks, Chair Michael Bugeja Robert Hoge Eric Jansen Michael Moran Michael Olson Donald Scarinci Jeanne Stevens-Sollman Thomas Uram Heidi Wastweet Also Present: Betty Birdsong Don Everhart Bill Norton April Stafford Greg Weinman 3 Contents Welcome and Call to Order 4 Design Direction for First Special Force Congressional Gold Medal 5 Themes for 2015 and 2016 Native American $1 Coins 31 4 Proceedings (2:11 p.m.) Welcome and Call to Order Chair Marks: Okay, great. So we are only missing one member besides Michael Ross who has indicated to me that he won't be in attendance. We're missing Donald. So at this point we've got the court reporter and time is marching on. So I'm go to go ahead and call this meeting to order for September 18, 2013, for the -MALE PARTICIPANT: May I interrupt for a second? For the court reporter that's Gary Marks, Chairman of the CCAC. Chair Marks: Yes, I apologize. In fact I'll just mention again for everyone that as you speak if you could just indicate who you are so the court reporter will be able to transcribe the proceedings accurately. So with that, calling the meeting to order. And the first item on the agenda is the discussion of -Mr. Weinman: Mr. Chairman -Chair Marks: -- design direction for the First Special Force Congressional Gold Medal. And April, are you ready to provide your report? Mr. Weinman: Mr. Chairman, this is Greg Weinman. Would you take the roll quickly for the record now that the meeting has been called to order? Chair Marks: Absolutely. Michael Bugeja. Member Bugeja: Here. Chair Marks: Robert Hoge. Member Hoge: Here. Chair Marks: Erik Jansen. 5 Member Jansen: Here. Chair Marks: Michael Moran. Member Moran: Here. Chair Marks: Michael Olson. Member Olson: Present. Chair Marks: Jeanne Stevens-Sollman. Member Steven-Sollman: Here. Chair Marks: Tom Uram. Member Uram: Here. Chair Marks: Heidi Wastweet. Member Wastweet: Here. Chair Marks: And myself, Gary Marks. And absent is Michael Ross and Donald Scarinci. Member Scarinci: No, I'm here, Gary. Chair Marks: You're here. Hello, Donald. Member Scarinci: Donald Scarinci here. Chair Marks: Okay. So everyone is accounted for who indicated that they will be at the meeting. So just, Michael Ross will be out and I will share his notes later. Okay, so are we ready to proceed, staff? Ms. Stafford: Yes, we are. Chair Marks: Okay, so if April could give us her report on the First Special Force Congressional Gold Medal. Design Direction for First Special Force Congressional Gold Medal Ms. Stafford: Thank you. I would love to. Some 6 background information. It is Public Law 113-16 that grants a collective Congressional Gold Medal to the First Special Service Force in recognition of their dedicated service during World War II. The First Special Service Force is a military unit composed of volunteers from the United States and Canada and was activated in 1942, at Fort Harrison near Helena, Montana. The legislation notes that the United States is forever indebted to the acts of bravery and selflessness of the troops of the Force as they were critical in repelling the advance of Nazi Germany and liberating numerous communities in France and Italy. The legislation specifies that the Congressional Gold Medal shall be given to the First Special Service Force Association in Helena, Montana, for display or temporary loan to other locations associated with the First Special Service Force, including Fort William Henry Harrison. The legislation does not specify, however, the design of the medal other than it shall bear suitable emblems, devices and inscriptions to be determined by the Secretary. So in supporting the CCAC in advising on the design direction for this program, committee members were given the legislation and background and historical information provided by the First Special Service Force Association. We will provide copies of materials so that information may be entered into the record. Mr. Bill Woon, Executive Director of the First Special Service Force Association and whose father served in the First Special Service Force and Dr. Ken Finlayson, Deputy Command Historian for the United States Army Special Operations Command have joined us today for this discussion. Before turning it over to Mr. Woon and Dr. Finlayson for comment, we will point out the following elements have been identified as being unique to the First Special Service Force. Several insignias to include crossed flags, spearhead and black double 7 shoulder patch, the First Special Service Force flag and the inscription, which is a quote from the First Special Service Force Monument and Memorial Park, Helena, Montana, honor also to those who daring to die survived. So with that, Mr. Woon, may I turn it over to you for comment? Mr. Woon: Yes, thank you. I appreciate being part of the conversation. I will defer to Ken, Dr. Finlayson. He's written several articles and done considerable research on the Force. And so, Dr. Finlayson, I will defer to you. Dr. Finlayson: Thank you very much. Thanks everybody for letting me participate in this. I've been associated with the Force in a professional capacity as a historian here at Army Special Operations Command since 2000 and I've attended many of the Force reunions and gotten to know and interview many of the veteran members. And so it's a great honor to be able to participate in this well deserved award. The general information that Ms. Stafford provided gives you all the essential starts and stops. I would like to emphasize a couple of things to the group if I might in hopes that they'll be helpful in you all putting together a design. And I've got to, I'll be perfectly candid I've never participated in anything quite like this one. So this will be a, if there will be questions I would be more than happy to try to elucidate on what I am talking about. But the Force is very much a part of the legacy of today's Army Special Operations Forces, both the Army Special Forces groups whose members wear the Force cross arrow insignia and also the Army Rangers. Many members of the Force originally came from the Army Ranger battalions of World War II, a significant part of the population joined the Force in Italy during the war. 8 So we have a long connection to the Force in Army Special Operations. So it's important to us that we be involved in something like this. The Force was a, was given campaign credit, Army campaign credit in World War II for four different campaigns, the Aleutians, Naples-Foggia, Rome-Arno and Southern France. And not knowing a whole lot about how these medals are designed, if there is verbiage involved that would be one element that commonly appears on Army insignia or coins or things that are developed here within the Army, the recognition of campaigns. So that would be certainly one for consideration. I think the most important point to make in considerations of the Force is this was unique in that it was a joint Canadian and American unit. It was the only one like it in the war. And the more that emphasis is placed on the jointness and the two nations, the depiction of the US and a Canadian flag and that sort of thing, I think the better off we will be in actually capturing the flavor of the Force. A couple of other unique insignias. We talked about the different details. The spearhead patch, the red spearhead with the USA/Canada engraved on it was the Force patch, the shoulder patch during the war. And that certainly is emblematic of the unit. Also the Force wore, in place of the standard American infantry blue woven shoulder cord, they developed one that was red, white and blue and adopted that. And that's also kind of a unique symbology associated with the Force, as well as of course, the crossed arrows. And the crossed arrows you see originally came from the Army's insignia scouts that were in the Army inventory prior to 1900. Chair Marks: Dr. Finlayson. Dr. Finlayson: Yes, sir. 9 Chair Marks: Could I ask everybody to put their phone on mute. It seems we have some serious background noise here. Everybody other than you of course? That's all right. Please go ahead. I apologize. Dr. Finlayson: That's fine. Ms. Stafford: And if you don't mind, doctor, if you could go back. You were talking about the red, white and blue. Dr. Finlayson: One of the unique uniform uses in the Force was the adoption of the red, white and blue shoulder cord. In the American Army in World War II and still today infantry soldiers wear a blue shoulder cord to designate their branch. And the Force adopted a red, white and blue shoulder cord that contained of course the red Canadian colors, blue and white. And that's one of the unique aspects of it. Don't know if that has any applicability to the design. But certainly you have the red, white and blue of course would be something to consider if that's feasible. The other elements that I just wanted to just bring up and then I will just get out of the way and let the experts talk, but recently within the last, I think it was 2005, Bill, correct me if I'm wrong, the Canadian members of the Force were awarded the Army's -- US Army's Combat Infantrymen's Badge. So the symbology of the combat infantry badge, the musket with the wreath would be feasible for this design. And also the Force used a very specific dagger, stiletto and that's called a V-42 which has also over time become emblematic of the Force. And other than that I think the nickname for the unit was the Black Devils. That was given to them by the opposition, the German Army. I guess my last point would be that we continue to honor the Force every year on December the 5th 10 the US Army Special Forces groups at their various locations have a -- usually have some kind of a ceremony honoring the inactivation of the Force which occurred on 5 December 1944 in France. So there's again, to reemphasize there's a strong connection between Army Special Operations and the First Special Service Force. And I think with that I better shut up and get out of the way here. Chair Marks: Okay. Well thank you very much. This is Gary Marks. Thank you very much for that input. April, is there anything else to be included in the staff report? Ms. Stafford: I just wanted to touch base really quickly with Mr. Woon. Mr. Woon, did you have anything to add or can we just turn it over to the committee members for discussion? Mr. Woon: No, from a personal standpoint, I think what I would add was the uniqueness of unconventional warfare at the time. The missions they were given were those that were considered impossible and they -- as unique as it was and I guess coincidental as it was, as they trained here in Helena for what was titled as a suicide mission jumping into Norway to take out the heavy water plants, the training that they received here in mountain warfare and really in small units survival bode very well when they were injected into the mountains in Italy. And casualty rate, I guess the uniqueness is the fact that it was bi-national and that at the time top secret. And several people have asked the question well why are we just hearing this 70 years later? And my perspective on that is that in '42 and '43 it was top secret. Rarely did you see even in the media and with the correspondence that was coming out of Italy, rarely did you see the name First Special Service Force. It was always the US Canadian unit fighting in Italy or the US Canadian unit as the first unit into Rome. 11 And as history has played out at the time, they wanted to give the perception to Nazi Germany that the invasion that eventually came from the west and England was going to come from the north and all the time the Force was in the south coming up from Italy and France. So they played a significant role in not only the landings, the Normandy landings but also in the deception, what was called the Jupiter Deception of keeping Germany manning their northern borders and northern perimeters. So I guess with that being said is the uniqueness of this unit is something from history that I don't know that we'll ever duplicate or replicate. Thank you. Chair Marks: Thank you, Mr. Woon. Okay at this point I would like to proceed with the committee deliberations in two segments. The committee will be familiar with this. I want to first cover any technical questions we may have about the assignment that's in front of us. And then after we clear those out of the way, then I will ask each member to contribute their thoughts, ideas or comments about potential design themes. So with that I guess I want to make a couple of comments first on the legislation. I just want to point out that there is really very little provided as far as instruction to us as a committee relevant to the designs. If you look at the bill, the Act, you'll note under Section 2, Paragraphs A and B, at the end of A we have simply the indication that there be recognition of their dedicated service during World War II. And then at the end of Paragraph B, it instructs us that there should be designs that are suitable emblems, devices and inscriptions to be determined by the Secretary. What that all means of course is that we've kind of got an open hand here as far as our design thoughts. 12 Oftentimes Congress will give us much more detailed instruction. So just so that we all are clear on that point. So with that I'm going to ask if there's any committee members who might have any technical questions about what we have in front of us. Member Steven-Sollman: Yes, this is Jeanne speaking. I was wondering are we only producing one gold medal or is this going to be several gold medals that will be at the different sites that honor the Special Service Force? Mr. Weinman: This is Greg Weinman. legislation authorizes one gold medal. The Member Steven-Sollman: Just one gold medal. And this one will be then borrowed and sent around to the different sites? Mr. Weinman: That is the idea, that it will be given to the First Special Forces Association where it will be available to display or temporarily loan to be displayed elsewhere, particularly in other appropriate locations -Member Steven-Sollman: Okay, thank you. Mr. Weinman: -- associated with the Special Force. Chair Marks: Okay. This is Gary Marks. Are there any other committee members who would like to ask a question of a technical nature? So I'm going to start this discussion off and -MALE PARTICIPANT: Gary, are you still there? Chair Marks: I'm here. Are you hearing me? FEMALE PARTICIPANT: We heard a long pause after you said I'm going to start the conversation off. Chair Marks: Well maybe you missed what I said. I didn't pause. FEMALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. 13 Chair Marks: I'll start over again and I'm sorry if this is repetitious if you actually heard it. But wanted to start off the conversation by focusing on a few excerpts from the Act. Are you hearing me? MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes. Chair Marks: Okay. Committee members received copies of Public Law 113-16 in the materials that were sent out to us. So if you have that in front of you I'll ask you to look at a couple of items here in Section 1 the Findings. I'm going to read Paragraphs 18, 19 and 22 and they will be relevant to my thoughts here. Eighteen says that during 251 days of combat the Force suffered 2,314 casualties or 134 percent of its authorized strength, captured thousands of prisoners, won five United States Campaign Stars and eight Canadian battle honors and never failed a mission. And then it says in 19, the United States is forever indebted to the acts of bravery and selflessness of the troops of the Force who risked their lives for the cause of freedom. And then Paragraph 22, the traditions and honors exhibited by the Force are carried on by two outstanding active units of two great democracies, the Special Forces of the United States and the Canadian Special Operations Regiment. I point those out because I think that what's appropriate here is that we send out recommendations to the art staff that focus on the honor part of what these individuals did and their contribution to our respective nations. And I think, you know, when we're talking about 134 percent of their authorized strength ended up as battle casualties, which would be injured, dead, missing or unaccounted for, that's an extraordinary sacrifice that these individuals contributed to the war effort. And so what came to mind for me and maybe this is an obverse image and I'll address reverse when I'm 14 done with this. In the reverse side I want to reach for more of the traditional emblems that are already established. But I'd like to see an obverse image that is unique and modern and something that is created for this program that conveys, I think the honor that is due to these individuals. Though my reference is to the US Army Field Manual, Appendix C, which deals with ceremonies, memorial ceremonies for the fallen. And in there is described what a lot of you may understand the Battle Cross to be. The Battle Cross is an image that is recognized by the Army to memorialize and give honor to the fallen on the battlefield. And I'll just read an excerpt to describe, if you're not familiar with the Battle Cross or what it is. And I'm reading this out of, actually a Wikipedia excerpt. But it's made up of the soldier's rifle with bayonet attached stuck into the ground, helmet on top, dog tags sometimes hanging from the rifle and the boots of the fallen soldier next to it. The purpose is to show honor and respect for the fallen at the battle site. And it goes on to say this is a practice that has endured since the Civil War and perhaps even before. So this is an image that would have been current with the World War II effort. And in fact the section goes on in the Field Manual from the US Army and it specifically talks about the inclusion of this imagery or this Battle Cross, if you will, in official ceremonies for the fallen. And you may have seen this image and often it's shown with another soldier kneeling in front of it as if to give honor to his fallen comrade. It's a very moving image and it conveys much more than any written words could convey. So I will just kind of submit that as an idea for an obverse image. Bill, if somehow you would want to factor in, maybe there could be imagery from both countries. 15 Perhaps somehow the Heraldic Eagle from the Great Seal and actually maybe the Maple Leaf for the Canadians. If you wanted to juxtapose those in some artistically creative way I think that could be of interest. But I want to put that forward that hopefully that when we review the actual images I am very much hoping that I can see some battlefield, Cross images. As far as the reverse, I think that a lot of the established images would be very appropriate here. The materials that were sent out to us included an image that appears to be, I don't know if this is a battle flag. But it's an image on a red background with what appears to be the American Heraldic Eagle image, a dagger on his breast shield and below it on a ribbon it says First Special Service Force. That may well be a very appropriate image to identify what we're commemorating here. Also I, there were some comments made by our guests about the shoulder patch, which is an arrowhead with USA and Canada on it. I think that might be an interesting image. And so I would just put it to the artist to be as creative as they can with those familiar images because in a way if we, I think if we dedicate the obverse to a unique, original image I would like to see something that honors these individuals on the reverse with images that would be immediately identifiable to their unit, to the Special Force. So with that, the next member I want to recognize is the only member on our committee who is actually in the military service. And that would be Michael Olson who serves as a Lieutenant Colonel in the Guard. And so I would like to go to Michael and ask him for his comments. Michael. Member Olson: All right. Thanks, Gary. Certainly quite an honor today to be talking about a Congressional Gold Medal for the First Special 16 Service Force. I would like to compliment the package of read ahead material. It was very interesting and very well done. And also I compliment the doctor on his opening comments. A lot there was covered that I had in my prepared comments as well. You know, it is important to remember that this is the only unit formed during World War II that consisted of Canadian and US forces that was under US command. While it's quite common today to have joint operations within the US military services, the Air Force, Marines, Army, Navy and also with other forces of different nations, back in World War II that was just becoming, it was just coming on the scene. It was not a common practice as it is today. Gary's comments about the 134 percent attrition rate. Just think about that for a minute. That's more people than they started with on a numbers basis. Certainly there are some soldiers that survived without injury throughout their tour of duty. But if you take a look at it strictly by the numbers, they lost more people than they started with. And that speaks to the danger that these soldiers were in. The other thing that I want to mention here is that being a soldier is a difficult business. But when you put that soldier in cold weather on top of a mountain, anything that you're asking him to do becomes exponentially more difficult. And these soldiers definitely signed up for a hard task and they did it well and with valor and success. Talking a little bit about the unit symbols, the crossed arrows is the branch insignia for the US Special Forces, Army Special Forces, which is the unconventional warfare branch of the Army. If we're looking at a link from the past to the 17 present, those arrows provide that length probably in the best manner out of all of the symbols. So if what we're looking to do is draw a connection, I think it would be important to have the crossed arrows branch insignia somewhere on the medal. The knife is also important. And if that could be implemented that would also serve the design well. The doctor mentioned four campaigns. And I too agree that if there is room on the medal and it fits well, my belief is all four should be listed. These folks served in four successful, difficult campaigns and that is important to the, not only to the soldiers but also to their descendants and history recording what they did. I'm going to agree quite a bit with what Gary had to say on what we should do on the obverse and the reverse. I do want to add a couple more ideas, however. On the obverse I believe the Battle Cross would be a suitable design. I also think that given the fact that these soldiers were experts in mountain warfare and that's where they gained their fame and gained their name, either some type of action scene depicting mountain warfare or a modern scene with mountains in the background and maybe some other type of symbols in the foreground, something different rather than a literal picture of a depiction of a battle. Maybe something with modern type artwork with some mountains on it would be attractive and appropriate. On the reverse, a lot of material to work with there. Again, I strongly feel that the Special Forces branch insignia should be on the coin, preferably on the reverse. The fact that we have our Canadian allies and partners included here it would be a great opportunity, as Gary stated, to have the Maple Leaf as well as the US flag depicted and the unit nickname, the Black Devils. There is a lot of pride and in this decor that goes 18 along with a unit nickname, especially if the enemy gives you that nickname you can kind of take that as a compliment because they've thought enough of you and they've got enough fear in their hearts that they gave you a name. And I'm sure the First Special Service Force was very proud that they were designated the Black Devils by the enemy. Lastly, I strongly believe that Act of Congress should be placed on the medal. We've seen some designs where that is not the case. And in my belief any time a Congressional Gold Medal is awarded it should state as such to lend the appropriate honor that is deserved of the medal. With that, Gary, that concludes my comments. Chair Marks: Okay, thank you, Michael. And before I go on I wanted to circle back. I intended to do this earlier. I wanted to circle back and address the item of the shoulder cord that was brought up with the red, white and blue idea. While it could certainly show a cord, we don't of course have color on a coin or a medal like this. So I'm not sure that would translate as maybe it would be intended. So I consider the appropriateness of the imagery but I think that depends on color. So with that, what I want to do here is I want to open this up to the balance of the committee. Is there someone who feels like they'd like to go next? I'd like you to speak up. If there is no one I'll just start randomly asking folks. So is there someone who would like to go next? Member Bugeja: Gary, this is Michael Bugeja. I just have a few comments to add and really appreciate both your and Michael Olson's discussion on this. There is a motto for the First Special Service Force and that is Vigorous Training, Hazardous Duty, which might be indicative of a kind of design that we would like to have. But mostly I see the gold medal as a celebration of 19 USA\Canada cooperation. And I think there is, you know, the insignia with, looks like an arrowhead, that's fine. But I think that the artist should have a little bit of license to upgrade that design which we, and I understand it's a badge and it indicates something. But I would almost like to see a stylized version of USA\Canada arrowhead. But mostly I like the idea of a unified theme and the Vigorous Training, Hazardous Duty slogan of the First Special Service Force might be something we might take a look at. That's all, Gary. Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. Who wants to go next? Member Moran: Gary, it's Mike Moran. I might take a little different take on the obverse of the medal. I think when you look at the history of this unit the Force men, particularly in Italy, but from the very inception of it, Major General Robert Frederick was the heart and soul of this unit. And I think some way you need to incorporate him into the medal. He was not just a general officer. In fact he was colonel when he got the unit pulled together. But he was very much a GI's officer. He was with the men all the way. He was, as I said, he was the heart and soul of the unit. He would have been disbanded when the Norway raid was dropped had he not gone to Washington and fought for an assignment in the Aleutian Islands. Even though that was a bust, he still kept the unit together and got it over into the Italian front as well. But there are a couple of examples of why I think he is representative of the individuals within the unit. I think the first one is that he ended up with eight purple hearts or a purple heart with eight oak leaf clusters. And it was said of him that he was the American general that was most shot at during World War II and hit. 20 He was on the front line with his people, always on the front line. Another example and this one, you're going to take the humor and I use it really as an example of the fact that he related to the people he commanded. In Rick Atkinson's excellent trilogy of the American Army in Europe in World War II, he talks about Robert Frederick and Frederick is out on the mountain with his troops and this is Monte la Difensa, one of the key actions. And the troops had just taken the beach and they are repelling numerous German counterattacks. And he sends word to the supply officers to send up whiskey for fortitude and condoms to keep the rain out of the rifle barrels. Now I know that, I know it's a colorful and it's a beautiful comment. But the fact of the matter is he knew the people that he was commanding and he was every bit a leader. And somehow Robert Frederick needs to be worked into that obverse. And that really is my comment on this. I think that the back really begs for the insignias on it. It's an ideal place to show the transformation three insignias from the original unit to modern day, as well as the heritage of both Canada and the United States in the Force. Chair Marks: Okay. Thank you, Michael. This is Gary Marks. Who else would like to go next? Member Jansen: This is Erik. Chair Marks: Go ahead, Erik. Member Jansen: My comments are fairly simple. I am very sympathetic with Michael Olson's wanting to integrate a recognizable, and by that I mean honoring symbol, on the obverse. I think the obverse needs to lead with a symbolic, recognizable, if possible, honorarium to the group. 21 I am however, sensitive to the fact that they fought in extremely difficult geographies and potentially there may be some combination with the symbol to imply the difficult geographies whether it's a ridge line in a mountain range, whether it's some of the equipment used by climbers, whatever. I would defer to the historians to put more color to that. But in many respects this story reminds me of kind of the Tenth Mountain Division kind of story where these are not just soldiers, these are warriors trained in the most difficult of conditions to perform the ultimate task of war. On the reverse, I think it's very simple and would be very straightforward with the US/Canadian joint effort relationship. Again I think symbols, Maple Leaf and a flag come to mind. But I wouldn't want to limit it to something as simple as that. But the cross border recognition here clearly was in the hearts of the soldiers and I think in the guts of the effort. So my thoughts are fairly straightforward in reinforcing. But I think the obverse needs to carry the honor and the symbology of the troop and the reverse carry the political lash-up of the two countries in World War II. Thank you. Chair Marks: Thank you, Erik. This is Gary Marks. I would like to have another member step forward to give their comments. Member Hoge: This is Robert Hoge. Chair Marks: Hi, Robert. Go ahead. Member Hoge: I would like to echo many of the comments that my colleagues have already stated. And I particularly like the allusion to the 10th Mountain Division which did share some of the same sorts of responsibilities in elite service morale, I think too. I have a friend who was in that. But it seems to me that it's really difficult to convey 22 some of these aspects through the use of the little symbols. The 10th Mountain Division had a dagger that was very similar to the Special Force dagger. But they used crossed daggers as their division emblem. And they were fighting in the same sorts of terrain. I don't think there has been a medal issued for them. But I guess they served in somewhat similar capacity. I think that we need to try to avoid any use of color. Gary mentioned this for instance with the red arrow and the Black Devils and this sort of thing, which or in the red, white and blue cord. These are all inappropriate for use on coins and medals. And in order to convey color we would have to get it to heraldic use of lines of dots or something like that which I don't think we probably would want to choose to do. They are not well known. Ideally I would hope that we could have something that's somewhat stylized that would do honor to the heroism of the individuals in this unit. And I'm not sure exactly what that would be. I like the idea perhaps of the recognition of the fallen. But then the unit's motto is to give recognition to those who did survive as well. It seems as though it's a complicated subject. And I'm thinking of one of the great military allusions of the past which is the famous Waterloo medal issued in England many years after the Battle of Waterloo which was recognized as a combined operation and honored the various different allied commanders and then had a very, very elaborate reverse that featured all sorts of allegorical presentations. But I'm wondering if whether since this unit was trained in so many different capacities it might be advisable to try to have small elements sort of maybe sort of encircling that would in fact represent some aspects of their training as not only mountain 23 troops and skiing troops and climbers, amphibious assault units, paratroopers, all of these things. They were a complex group in terms of their training and I think some complexity in the design of the medal might be appropriate. I would like to defer to my other colleagues now to continue. Chair Marks: Thank you, Robert. Who would like to go next? Member Steven-Sollman: This is Jeanne StevensSollman. I have an idea with the color. And I'm not sure since we are only going to issue one is it possible the Mint would consider enameling a red, white and blue cord perhaps on the outside edge of this? I'm not, this is something, I mean, you know, something to propose to the Mint. But it would solve a color issue since there is only one medal being produced. The other thing is I am very much in favor of the contemporary image that Gary Marks is proposing. But I think we are, we have something wonderful in recognizing these seals of mountains and water and so forth. And if we could somehow put the Battle Cross over the mountains on that obverse side that might and then have the words of the four campaigns that, you know, were worked in, fought in. We might have a simple but recognizable medal for, to honor these soldiers. That's all I have to say. Chair Marks: Thank you, Jeanne. This is Gary Marks. I think Jeanne proposes a wonderful image there with the battlefield cross and maybe an image of a mountain or mountain range in the background. Member Steven-Sollman: Correct. Chair Marks: That would be very attractive. So anyway with that we're down to Donald, Tom or 24 Heidi. Member Uram: This is Tom. Chair Marks: Go ahead. Member Uram: This is Tom Uram here. Chair Marks: Go ahead, Tom. Go ahead, Tom. Member Uram: I kind of agree also with Jeanne on that and I think when Mike brought that up regarding the mountains and so forth I thought that would be really appropriate based on both your comments and Mike's and now that Jeanne had to say there that the if the use of color obviously could be used, particularly on the Maple Leaf and the flag I think that would add a new dimension. I don't know if you've seen the new Canadian piece with all of the Maple Leafs on it and then they have the red enameled Maple Leaf on top. It's a spectacular new innovation there in regards to enameling and so forth. But it might be something to think about here on this one particular item. But I certainly appreciate everyone's comments regarding the history and so forth and the comments of the doctor. And I think it's going to be a striking medal and I think it should embody the sacrifice that both countries made. Thank you. Chair Marks: Thank you, Tom. When you say a striking medal I assume there's no pun intended. I couldn't resist a little bit of medals humor. So Donald or Heidi. Member Wastweet: This is Heidi. Member Scarinci: I'll say a few words. Member Wastweet: Okay. Member Scarinci: Do you want to go first, Heidi? Member Wastweet: Go ahead, Donald. 25 Member Scarinci: I don't want to be last. I would rather you be last. Member Wastweet: Okay. Member Scarinci: First of all on the issue of color I agree with Bob Hoge that I would caution, I would err on the side of not using color. You know, internationally color has not been an award winner. And it opens a can of worms, you know, for a rally cry for more color which will I think drive a lot of people crazy, a lot of people at the Mint. Secondly as to my comments on this, I think, you know, all I'm going to say is, you know, I think you should follow, you know, the guidance of Mr. Woon and Dr. Finlayson and just move them towards something artistic. And other than to say that, I think just keep doing what you've been doing and, you know, and I think we're going to, you know, we'll be in for a treat when we see the designs. Chair Marks: Okay, thank you, Donald. you're the last one. Heidi, Member Wastweet: Thank you. This is Heidi. We do a lot of military medals. So our challenge moving forward is to make them unique in their individualities. And looking at this from a nonmilitary person I'm looking at the big picture of this. And when I think of Special Forces I think the toughest of the tough. And therefore, I don't want to focus on, excuse me, on those extraordinary losses and sacrifices that they made because every unit of the military has profound sacrifices. In my opinion personally, I would like to see something that emphasizes more of their strengths rather than their losses. And one thing that made this group very unique is their mountaineering skills. So I like the image of the extreme mountain climate that they were in, also the comradery between the Canadians and the Americans is unique 26 and one of the first of its kind as was mentioned. I also would like to open up the floor for a moment to Don Everhart to see if he has any images that are coming to mind that he is thinking of. Mr. Everhart: Yes, I've been thinking about this while you're all having input into it. I like the Battle Cross idea with the mountains a lot. I also like the idea with the Special Forces branch insignias and the crossed arrows. This is, you know, we're so early in this process. I don't normally get really good ideas until after I've been submersed in it for a while. So, you know, my initial ideas I sometimes think are great. And then when I'm into it for a couple weeks I look back at them and I don't even submit them. So at this point, you know, I just have very basic skeletal input that I'm getting from you and, you know, I will take that and try to develop it given, you know, all the information that I have here. But I think we definitely have enough material that we can do some pretty good images. Member Wastweet: Thank you, Don. Mr. Everhart: Yes. Member Wastweet: That's all I have. Chair Marks: Okay. Thank you, Heidi. Actually just building on Heidi's comments I would say that I would like to see both. I would like to see both of those images on the obverse that would give honor to the horrific losses. I mean we're talking about 134 percent attrition rate. I understand that most units in the military in a war situation will suffer casualties. I'm not sure that they compare to this. And I think it's, I think wholly appropriate, wholly appropriate to honor the fallen because most of these guys ended up falling. And for the families who are related to these 27 individuals I think an image of something like the battlefield cross, if not that something else like it, some image that evokes that sacrifice and honors it is what's wholly appropriate here. I think their skills and the extraordinary training they went through are also very legitimate imagery that perhaps may render well for this medal. But I would certainly emphasize the honor part. And in fact when you look at the legislation and try to pick through the little bit that's there, it seems that the emphasis of the legislation is about honor. And I can, many of the military memorials in our nation, especially some of the more modern ones bear this battlefield cross image. Several years back when I was in Montana still they unveiled a new memorial in Kalispell, Montana, which is near where Mike said he was. And I went to the unveiling ceremony and it was a very large concrete and for lack of a better description box that contained all of the names of the fallen Montanans through various wars. And on the top there was a sculpture, a bronze sculpture. And when they unveiled it I don't think there was hardly a dry eye in the crowd. And there were a few hundred people there. It was done on a Veteran's Day I believe, the unveiling. And what was it? It was the battlefield cross with an image of a soldier in his battle fatigues kneeling in front of his friend's cross. And it just, it grabs your heart and it pulls it out of your chest almost. So it's an image that I think has become much more familiar to American citizens over the last couple of decades. I think prior to that maybe it was something that was understood more strictly within military ranks. But it's an image now that is showing up on memorials across the nation. And so I think it would be wholly appropriate to at least consider that image for this medal. So with that I'm going to 28 ask if there are any other members who have any follow up comments. Member Olson: Olson. Yes. Hey, Gary. This is Mike Chair Marks: Go ahead. Member Olson: Yes. Hey, I really appreciated Heidi's comments and it made me think a little bit more. And I think I would like to see depictions of both remembrance of the fallen but also accomplishments of the mission. And when you think about Special Forces they are the toughest of the tough. And regardless of what service they come from they've made it to the top and they're entrusted with the toughest and most important missions the military has to do. And to a man I would say these soldiers whether they made it through the battle or they unfortunately were taken by the battle, they were working to get that mission done and they were proud to have accomplished the mission. So I think that is really important to show that while there were immense losses these guys don't quit. They keep going until the last man. And I think that is important. I would personally like to see that on some of the selections that we have to look at. Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. Are there any other members who would like to follow up? FEMALE PARTICIPANT: Mr. Chairman? Chair Marks: Not hearing any I'm going to ask our guests on the phone who started off with comments having heard all of the comments from the committee is there anything else that you would like to mention to our group? Mr. Woon: This is Bill Woon. You know, as I visualize all the descriptions and all of the ideas that are coming out it's all and it sounds wonderful and 29 it's very appropriate. I think that honoring, excuse me, honoring the fallen soldiers and that inscription honoring also those who daring to die survived, where that appears is on a cenotaph. There was a monument that when the Force men, the surviving soldiers came home they returned to Helena in 1947 and built a monument in honor of their fallen brothers. All of those names are listed on a cenotaph behind the monument. But that's where the inscription comes from. So and every year at their reunion they have a memorial service to honor those Force members who have passed away in the last year. And on the reverse side, that lineage to the Special Forces, the insignias of the spearhead, the crossed arrows and the B42, the dagger are incorporated into both US and Canadian Special Operations insignias. So I think the direction that you're heading or talking of describing really is in my mind what I envisioned and hearing this conversation really helped pull it together in terms of what I envisioned the medal would look like. So thank you for all your input and your interest in putting this together. Chair Marks: Thank you, Mr. Woon. I'm going to ask if the doctor would like to add anything else. Dr. Finlayson: Yes, sir. This is Ken Finlayson again. Again, I think the comments, I am very impressed by a lot of people doing their homework on a unit that isn't well known, well publicized. And I think you have all done a great job of grasping the essence of what this unit was all about. There's a couple of things that might help in the art work is we look at the mountains, the mountaineering aspect of things. Two things come to my mind. One, one of their signature battles that was mentioned previously is at Monte la Difensa in Italy, that mountain itself is a singular mountain 30 mass. It's not connected to -- in certain aspects it stands out and would be very, I think very well served in a profile sense as on the medal or, and I would defer to Mr. Woon and his home town, but I think the training in the Blasberg Hills above Fort William Henry Harrison just a ridge line above where a lot of the training was done would certainly lend itself to some type of an imagery of a bas-relief type of thing. But you've, I think you've, everybody has hit the nail on the head as far as getting into the essence. Now a question of how do we sort through all this thing because it is a complex thing to convey in imagery. But it's been a great place pleasure and I'm standing by to help out in any way I can with this project. Thank you. Chair Marks: All right. Thank you very much, sir. And before we conclude this item I want to go back to Don Everhart or Tom Bernardi and just see if you have anything else you would like to add. Mr. Everhart: I don't have anything else. I mean like I said before this is something that as I get more into this and more immersed into it I start discovering more things. And then one idea leads to another one. So at this point I think we have a good skeletal framework to start with, with a lot of images and a lot of ideas. And, you know, we go from there and see what happens. But I'm pretty optimistic we're going to come up with something good on this one. Chair Marks: I think you're right. You guys have been firing on all cylinders here lately so I think you're absolutely right. I'm looking forward to seeing what the art staff comes up with. So, Tom, did you have anything that you wanted to add? Mr. Bernardi: I don't have anything else. I think you've put out a lot of good source material, a lot of 31 good information. And I'm sure the staff here will come up with some good ideas for you to take a look at. Chair Marks: Okay. Thank you very much. So there's nothing else on this matter. We're going to move on on our agenda. And the next item is our discussion on themes for the 2015 and 2016 Native American $1 coins. So at this point I will turn to April Stafford and Betty Birdsong for your report. Ms. Stafford: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I would just like to thank our guests again. We appreciate you being with us. Mr. Woon: Thank you. It was a pleasure. Thank you. Dr. Finlayson: Thanks very much. Ms. Stafford: Okay, take care. Mr. Woon: Good bye. Themes for 2015 and 2016 Native American $1 Coins Ms. Stafford: Bye. Okay, so for the 2014 Native American $1 coin reverse it's Public Law 110-82 that requires the Secretary of the Treasury to Mint issue $1 coins in honor of Native Americans and the important contributions made by Indian tribes and individual Native Americans to the development and history of the United States. The Act mandates a reverse design for these coins with an image emblematic of one important Native American or a Native American contribution each year in chronological order. The National Museum of the American Indian provided themes which were shared with the following consultants on Capitol Hill. The Committee on Indian Affairs of the Senate. The Congressional Native American Caucus of the House 32 of Representatives and the National Congress of American Indians. We've received their comments and we'll share them with the committee today. We are here to discuss six potential themes, the narratives of which have been sent to the committee members for review. We'll provide a copy so that this information can be entered into the record. As such I'll only refer to the titles of the six themes to be considered if that's acceptable to you, Mr. Chairman? Chair Marks: Yes, please. Ms. Stafford: Theme one for discussion is Sequoyah, George Gist of Cherokee 1776-1843. Theme two, Ely Samuel Parker, 1828-1895, Tonawanda Seneca. Theme three, the Mohawk High Iron Workers Builders of New York City and Other Skylines. Theme four, Jim Thorpe of the Sac and Fox, 18881953. Theme five, Code Talkers from both World War I and World War II, 1917-1945. And theme six covering Alaska, specifically Elizabeth and Ray Peratrovich and Alaska's 1945 Anti-Discrimination Law. Information of the feedback that we received from the various consulting groups they recommended the Mohawk High Iron Workers and Code Talkers to be used in 2015 and 2106. So that's it for us, Mr. Chairman. Member Scarinci: Can I ask a question, Gary? Chair Marks: Yes, go ahead, Donald. Member Scarinci: Okay. Donald Scarinci. Do we have a sense yet of when we're going to issue the Code Talker medals? Mr. Norton: The ceremony, this is Bill Norton. The ceremony is scheduled or the Speaker's intention for November 20th this year. 33 Member Scarinci: This year. Mr. Norton: That will be 25 Congressional Gold Medals, 32 tribes to be honored. Member Scarinci: And I assume you're, you know, when you guys think about, you know, presenting this, you know, you'll have some kind of a set that you'll offer. And I'm sure the marketing department will do something clever with it. But I'm wondering if we're going to do the Code Talker medals, you know, wouldn't it be timely to do a Code Talker dollar and then you could tie the product together somehow in an interesting and, you know, educational package, you know, to really explain what the contribution of the Native Americans was to, you know, to our war efforts in both wars. I guess that's more of a comment than a question. I'm sorry. Chair Marks: That's okay. Member Scarinci: That will be my comment, Gary. I think if in fact, you know, if in fact we're going to do this, this year with the Code Talker medals and we're talking about next year, this is the 2014 medal that we're talking, dollar we're talking about. Ms. Stafford: I'm sorry, 2015 and 2016. We're discussing the themes for that. I apologize. I used the wrong year in the introduction. We're here to discuss the themes for 2015 and 2016. Member Scarinci: away. Okay. So that's far enough Mr. Weinman: This is Greg Weinman. Just to clarify, which are the last two chronological years, the last two years we're required to be chronological which is why you're seeing all these themes at the end here. Member Scarinci: I see. I see, okay. 34 Chair Marks: Yes, this is Gary Marks. I'll just, I'm going to follow up with a comment on what Donald had to say and then I want to circle back to see if there are any technical questions the committee has before we really get into, in earnest into our theme ideas. As far as the idea of a Code Talker dollar coin, I think regardless of the year that shows up on the scene, I think the marketing staff can resurrect the Code Talker medals, package them together with the dollar and make it relevant at that point in time whether that be, you know, next year or in 2016. So I think Donald's got a good idea there and I think it's very relevant to our discussion. So with that I want to ask are there any committee members that have technical questions of the staff about the theme ideas that were presented here? Okay, not hearing any I'm going to recognize first one member of the committee who is not with us here today and read his comments to you. And that would be Michael Ross, who of course is an Associate Professor in US History at the University of Maryland. And so his comments are this. “Gary, hi. I'm sorry I will be unable to be on tomorrow's teleconference call. I will be in attendance in October. If possible, please convey my view that the themes for the Native American coins are fine. Sequoyah had many achievements in his life. But his creation of the Cherokee syllabary is certainly the most famous. It is the reason there is a statue for him in the US Capitol. So I think it is okay that the theme is tightly focused on the syllabary and that there is no need to clutter it with more detail. I also think that the description of Ely Samuel Parker is acceptable. I hope the artist will focus on his service during the Civil War and his role in drafting the generous surrender terms Grant offered Lee at Appomattox. (They are written in Parker's 35 Hand). That day in April of 1865, is often recognized as an important moment in the process of national reconciliation. Parker's actions after the war as head of the Bureau of Indian Affairs are more controversial as they led many of his fellow tribesmen to accuse him of being a traitor. So again I hope the artist will choose to highlight his efforts at Appomattox, which I think were an important contribution.” But those are Michael's comments relevant to the theme ideas. So with that on the record, I'll turn to the committee present on the phones and ask who would like to make their comments. Ms. Stafford: Mr. Chairman, this is April Stafford. I just wanted to check to see if I should clarify because I realized my introductory remarks may not have specified we are here to discuss six potential themes but specifically get feedback on the committee's recommendation of two themes to apply to 2015 and 2016. Any of the remaining themes that are presented here can certainly be used in the future of the program. But we are here at the Mint trying to, you know, do more advanced development. And so if there are two themes of the six that the committee or committee members specifically would recommend. The only requirement would be that 2015 and '16 that the themes appear in the order in which they chronologically occurred. Chair Marks: Okay. And with that, April, this is Gary Marks again. April, with that I want to ask Greg a question. I think you mentioned this just a little bit ago. But the legislation calls for these dollar coins to be chronological up to and I'm sorry what year is that? Mr. Weinman: Through 2016, which happens to 36 correspond with the Presidential dollars. So when the Presidential Dollar program ended, whatever year that was going to be, that's when the chronological requirement for the Native American dollar ends as well. Thereafter, the design, the coins can be issued in any order determined to be appropriate. Chair Marks: Okay. All right. With that comment, Committee, I want to put something in context here as you make your comments. We have six theme ideas here which I think are all worthy of merit. And the legislation says that we need to keep this chronological up to 2016. But there's nothing that I know of, and Greg correct me if I'm wrong, there's nothing I know of in the legislation that would prevent us from presenting all six of these themes over the next six year period and keep all of these wonderful theme ideas in chronological order. And maybe after those six are exhausted then we could, you know, start doing some more random themes that might hopscotch through time. But it seems to me that if these themes are worthy, each of them in their own standing, why wouldn't we recommend that the Mint adopt this as a six year schedule and just systematically as each theme comes up relevant to its position in the chronology produce that coin for that particular year. With that comment I'm going to go to or Greg did you want to comment on this? Mr. Weinman: There's nothing obviously legally problematic with what you're proposing. But I think Bill has a comment about the views of our Hill consultants. Mr. Norton: Hill consultants and especially the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs does not want to tie itself into agreeing on chronological order. They don't want to tie future committee chairs to this. They object, if object is the right word. The current 37 staff, the current leadership up there on the House and Senate objected to the process that was used prior in which a previous chairman locked us into these, this order. So the Hill has concern about locking in anything with the Native American coin beyond really one year, which makes it difficult on all of us. But we have got them to agree to a two year theme. So that's, I just want to raise that. Chair Marks: Okay. Well I appreciate that and maybe my idea partially crashes and burns here. And that's fine. I'm familiar with this concept of politics. Go ahead, someone. Member Jansen: It's Erik Jansen here. I'm sorry to back up the conversation here. But I was going to ask the question that Greg addressed. And I'm not clear on his answer. Greg, are you saying that the 2016 date of the Native American dollar is the last dollar that is formally authorized by legislation as things stand right now? Mr. Weinman: No, what I'm saying is this program goes on in perpetuity. However, the program was designed so that the coins are issued from the beginning of the program through the end of the Presidential Dollar program which we didn't know when that was going to be at the beginning of the program. It depended really upon which presidents were still surviving. Now we know for a fact that program is going to end in 2016. Accordingly, we now know as fact that the chronological requirement is completed in 2016. So the last two chronological designs are 2015 and 2016, which is why we're having this discussion today. After 2016, the program remains authorized. But the legislation is clear that at that point the various Native American contributions can 38 be featured and issued in any order determined to be appropriate by the Secretary. Member Jansen: Okay. So my second -Mr. Weinman: I just wanted to mention one other thing with Gary. When the program began some of you who were around may remember, we had originally contemplated establishing all of the chronological themes up front but there was objection from our Hill consultants which is why we have done it in this type of order. Chair Marks: Okay. Thank you, Greg. And I guess the only thing I'll offer to resurrect even partially my idea is that given that everyone understands that legally we have to be chronologically in order for the next couple of years, for 2015 and 2016, I'll just suggest lightly here that maybe doing the first two themes, which would be Sequoyah and Ely Samuel Parker, for those two years would preserve the ability for future chairmen to decide whether or not they were in agreement with perhaps some of these other themes that would still be in chronological order. So with that, who on the committee would like to chime in? Member Jansen: It's Erik again. Gary, let me continue if I could. Chair Marks: Yes, go ahead, Erik. Member Jansen: So these six ideas have been provided to us not through legislative direction but by suggestion by the National Museum of the American Indian? Mr. Weinman: That's correct. Member Jansen: So these six were chosen by them with whatever guidance they didn't receive in the legislation but received from the various parties interested in Native American interests within the 39 legislative Hill? Mr. Weinman: That's correct. At the beginning of the program we went to the National Museum of the American Indian and asked for guidance on potential themes. Now to establish these as potential themes that occurred chronologically. And they prepared a large list for us. And these are the, these are the final six, if you will, from the pool of design themes that they put together for us in the beginning of the program. Member Jansen: If I could only ask Greg either from memory or potentially you have in front of you, can you read the sentence or two or three or paragraph from the original legislation calling for the annual revision of the theme of the Sacagawea dollar? Could you reread that text? I want to understand the definition of the trajectory of these topics. Mr. Weinman: The design selected for the reverse of the coin is described under the subsection shall be chosen by the Secretary after consultation with the Committee on Indian Affairs of the Senate, the Congressional Native American Caucus of the House of Representatives, the Commission of Fine Arts and the National Congress of American Indians. Shall be reviewed by the Citizens Coins Advisory Committee and may detect individuals and events such as, this is such as the creation of Cherokee written language; the Iroquois Confederacy, Wampanoag Chief Massasoit, the Pueblo Revolt; Olympian Jim Thorpe; Ely S. Parker, a general on the staff of General Ulysses S. Grant and later head of the Bureau of Indian Affairs; and Code Talkers who served in the United States armed forces during World War I and World War II. And in the case of a design depicting the contributions of an individual Native American to the development of the United States and the history of 40 the United States so not to take the individual on the sides such that the coin could be considered a two-headed coin. It then goes on to say each design for the reverse of the one dollar coins issued during each year shall be emblematic of one important Native American or Native American contribution here. And then it goes on to say each one dollar coin mentions that the design of the reverse in accordance with this subsection for any year shall be issued during the one year period beginning on January 1 of that year and shall be available throughout the entire one year period. And then there's the section that talks about order of issuance of designs. It specifically says each coin issued under this subsection commemorating Native Americans and their contributions shall be issued to the maximum strength practicable in the chronological order in which the Native Americans lived or the events occurred until the termination of the coin program described in Subsection N, that would be the Presidential $1 Coin Program. Thereafter shall be issued in any to be appropriate by the consultation with this committee dissent, the Congressional Native of the House of Representatives Congress of American Indians. order determined Secretary after and if there is a American Caucus and the National Ms. Stafford: May I add to that as well just to clarify. So when a coin program such as this comes many times the first thing that the United States Mint will do is develop a design selection and approval process. That then governs all the work that comes to determine or pare down the themes for those coins that come after. We have a design selection and approval process for the Native American $1 coin that has been used since its inception. It was approved by the Secretary of the Treasury. And that design and selection and approval process stipulates, per the 41 legislation, that we work with these three Hill groups. And it also notes that we consult with the National Museum of the American Indian to develop the, at least 12 but no more than 15 different themes that chronologically list and expound upon the contributions made by Native Americans. So that is how we've come here today. The six that we're looking at, as Greg said, are simply remaining from those that have already come before. So I hope that helps clarify a little bit. Member Olson: This is Mike Olson. I've just got a question or comment here. And I understand the requirement to remain in sequential order only goes through the next two designs. So if today we pick the best two designs and we order them in whatever order one's going to be before the next, we've met that requirement. And after 2016, there is no requirement for them to be in order. So at that point the other four could be selected at that time regardless of what dates they occurred on, correct? Mr. Weinman: That's correct. Member Jansen: So just to finish my question, as April just said, these six that are in front of us are not six new ideas. They are essentially the original six that have not been done so far. And in that sense as Mike just said, our constant fear of chronology is honorable but not required because that was my main comment. We were jumping from some pretty fundamental societal, cultural issues to individuals and kind of spot issues suddenly in this series. And it struck me as odd and potentially inappropriate. Having said that, the Sequoyah medal, the invention of written system of communication is a cultural invention and so that 42 would be an exception to what I'm saying. But when you start moving on to Tonawonda Seneca and onward to the iron workers in New York City and then Jim Thorpe, we're getting very, very specific as opposed to cultural. And I just want the committee to be clear on what we're doing here unintentionally if we are not mindful. Thank you. Chair Marks: Okay, and that was Erik for the record, Erik Jansen. This is Gary Marks. Okay. We've had quite a bit of discussion here about the law and how it's applied here in order of the themes and such. At this point I am hoping we can pull this back to more of a systematic contribution from each member. So if there is somebody who would like to offer their comments about these themes and which two they would like to see for 2015 and 2016, I would like to start focusing our discussion there. Member Bugeja: Gary, this is Michael Bugeja. I'd like, I just have a few comments if that's okay, if I might. Chair Marks: Go ahead, Michael. Member Bugeja: Okay. I really like the Sequoyah and the Mohawk Iron Workers. The Sequoyah one is very important to me because of its educational background. And I also think that it would be good for youth numismatists because all the kids study Sequoyah and I just think the achievement of the Cherokee alphabet is just an overwhelming contribution to critical thinking and education. And as an educator I like that. And I also like the appeal it might have to young hobbyists. I also hail from a part of the country where the Mohawk Iron Workers are real people. I can't say I grew up with them. Donald knows that I come from the same town where he has his law 43 office. But -MALE PARTICIPANT: And you didn’t grow up with the Lenape Indians from New Jersey either. Member Bugeja: Yes, that's right. These are real folks. But in addition to that, the Mohawk Iron Workers have been documented in film and they have been documented in photo journalism. For instance a David Grant Noble, a photographer, Vietnam War era photographer and journalist has a whole series on the Mohawk Steel Workers which might be inspiring. And then there is a documentary by Katja Esson, I think her name is and it is called Skydancer. And it's a documentary on the whole both sacrifice and courage and mark of honor and that the Mohawk Tribe iron workers have in raising the skyscrapers that Donald and I looked across the river at growing up. So I just wanted to mention those two things from an educational and photographic standpoint because I think if our Mint artists took a look at the Mohawk photography particularly, you'll see a lot of action, a lot of ascending, a lot of movement and you can make a tremendous coin. That's all I have, Gary. I hope that's sufficient. Chair Marks: Yes, thank you. And I think at this point I might just offer the following. I don't want Michael Ross' comments to get lost here from, you know, his historic advice to us. He suggested Sequoyah and the Parker themes, which happen to be the first two in the chronology. So I don't think I'm going to offer much more comment than to say that I agree with him. And it still preserves those other later occurring themes for future use in the program. So at this point I guess I'll just ask if there's someone else who would like to go ahead and offer 44 their comments. Member Jansen: This is Erik. Can I go? Chair Marks: Go, Erik. Member Jansen: I would like to stand by those historian's comments as well. I think the Sequoyah comment made just now stands. And I can hardly add to them other than to say to create a language, a written language is a major social, societal item. I think it is rich in opportunities for symbolic representation. And I would add to the artistic challenge here symbols not pictures. We don't need an Indian putting cuneiform on a clay tablet, please. I would also say Ely Samuel Parker's story is the story almost of a transcendent soul, a story of that soul's inspiration and protection of his culture into the new world which he has no choice and cannot resist. It's an artistic challenge. I'm not sure how an artist is going to pull this one off. I think it is a difficult conceptual design. It's rich in history. But that richness is a complex story to tell simply. So I think as an artistic challenge I recognize the recommendation of going with the Tonawanda Seneca story as my advice. I think it chronologically gives the future the maximum flexibility. It is a beautiful story of a man who took his culture and made the most of what the integration forced him into. And I think it's a powerful concept. So those are my recommendations would be to go with Theme seven, Sequoyah and Theme eight, Ely Samuel Parker and leave the rest for future consideration. Chair Marks: Who would like to go? Member Moran: Gary, Mike Moran here. I just want to second the motion on Sequoyah but also tell you that there's another part of the story that 45 involves the Mint that you probably do not know. It starts with the final paragraph here of the Cherokee Phoenix which was a very important newspaper that was used by the Cherokee to pull themselves together as a unified nation. It's published in both English and Cherokee. But the editor there was a brave named Buck. You know Sequoyah and that's George Gist. The Cherokee at that point in time were taking the names of Americans that they particularly honored. Buck was sent north to Connecticut to go to school and he stopped in New Jersey. He was sent north by missionaries and stopped and stayed at the home of Elias Boudinot, that's the third director of the Mint. At that time he was president of the American Missionary Society. Buck acquired or took Elias Boudinot's name and that's the name he used for the rest of his life. He returned to the Cherokee lands to become the editor of the Cherokee Phoenix. Now the sad part of this story is that he supported a treaty that was unpopular with the tribe that would have removed the tribe and ultimately they did, they were removed to the -- in Oklahoma. He was then executed when he arrived after the Trail of Tears for his support of that treaty because tribal law had the force of death granted by either supporting or enacting a law that was not popular within the tribe. And also the Trail of Tears started within days after the Dahlonega Mint was placed in service. So there is a Mint connection here. It's not a very good one. But there is a solid Mint connection here and we owe it to the Cherokee to do a dollar coin honoring their culture on the back. Chair Marks: Okay. Thank you, Michael. you, what two are you recommending? So did 46 Member Moran: I'm recommending Sequoyah. And if I were left to my druthers on that I would recommend the Code Talkers because I think we've got a plethora of good designs that probably can be translated on a smaller scale on a dollar coin. Chair Marks: Okay. All right. Is there another committee member who would like to make their comments? Member Olson: Yes. Okay, Gary. It's Mike Olson. Chair Marks: Yes, Michael. Member Olson: Okay. I'll keep my comments short. The Sequoyah, based on what I've read and what I've heard today that would be one of my preferences. The other preference would be the Mohawk Iron Workers. That's a very interesting story and a very important one to American history. The fact that they had such a great part in building our infrastructure that's helped us make, be successful as a nation. It would also draw the series closer to the 20th century, which if we're going to show some movement here and provide additional perspective I think that's important. In regards to the Code Talkers, I'm a little mixed on that because I think that would make a nice set somehow marketed through the Mint with the dollar. However, I'll take a contrary view of the designs we've seen. We've seen a lot of good designs. But how do we distill all of those designs representing all of those various tribes down into one dollar coin that represents all? I think that would be a very difficult challenge. So my preferences are going to be for the Sequoyah and the Iron Workers. That's it. Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. Someone else? 47 Member Uram: Tom Uram here. I agree also with the Sequoyah. I think that's super. I think there could be a lot of terrific designs. But my second choice is a little bit different. I'm leaning a little bit more towards the, while they're all certainly valid, I kind of like the Jim Thorpe idea and bringing, if this is going to be the final design for this run then I'm kind of thinking that Jim Thorpe might bring a little more of a modernized focus to the series. And also with our baseball theme and a few of the other things that we have coming out, it might tie into a little bit there somehow. But I just wanted to take a little bit of a different approach for my second opinion here. I think it would be, tie in nicely. Chair Marks: Thank you, Tom. Hey, Donald. Did you have anything else you wanted to add on this matter? Member Scarinci: No, I, you know, I guess if we were doing the series the way I was originally thinking about it we wouldn't even have arrived at Leif Ericson. So I would still be talking about the great heritage of the Indian people from the last millennia. You know, but what everyone is suggesting sounds very reasonable. At this point let's go with the chronology for two years. Let's keep the remaining ideas in, you know, in the hopper for us to consider. And again, when the chronology mandate is over and I think certainly as soon as we're free from chronology I would want to do the Code Talker dollar, you know, because I think that's really the way, especially after I saw what the Mint did with the generals. And you all know I didn't really like the generals. I loved the proofs. I loved the technology of what went into the proofs and what we're doing there. 48 But, you know, I didn't really care for the generals. But when you look at it in the, with the material with that fold out binder, with the, you know, informational packet and the medal, you know, I just think it's a very, you know, it's a very neat little educational product at a price that's very reasonable. So I would love to as soon as we're free go to the Code Talkers so the Mint can do something like that with those medals. So anyway, you know, let's just, you know, let's just roll it out. Chair Marks: Okay. Thank you, Donald. Okay. I still need to hear from Robert, Jeanne or Heidi. Member Hoge: Hi, Robert here. I think that the Mohawk Iron Workers offers the most powerful visual potential of these various themes. I kind of like that. But I don't see where it has to be the most immediate in these two years chronologically. Also the Sequoyah image use it with the utilization of the Cherokee's syllabary would probably be effective in demonstrating, you know, language. So it's kind of exciting in that respect. In the others I think Jim Thorpe offers an opportunity for an excellent portrait presenting him as what he was at the time, probably the greatest athlete in the world. I'm a little more conflicted on the Code Talkers and the Samuel Ely Parker. They are worthy subjects but it seems like we've been kind of beating to death Code Talkers with all of these medals. And I wonder if this is, a coin is just going to be kind of lost in the field of a whole series of designs. And I see the difficulties as mentioned in possibly combining all these different tribal ideas into one that would satisfy everybody. The ideas are fine. No one has mentioned the Alaskan theme with Elizabeth and Ray Peratrovich. But I think they would be worthy too because of the first of the Anti-Discrimination legislation. It might 49 be difficult to convey but perhaps two nice portraits would work. My favorites would be for voting for these two years probably the Mohawk Code Talkers and the Sequoyah medal. Chair Marks: Okay. Thank you very much, Robert. Jeanne or Heidi. Member Steven-Sollman: Yes, this is Jeanne. I think, I guess when I was reading our materials I was also in favor of, you know, the Sequoyah and the Code Talkers and the Iron Workers. Those three to me really jumped out. I was a little concerned why we were looking at the Code Talkers and the Iron Workers so intently. But I was, I guess I'm worried that the program is going to end and if we aren't going to do any more American, Native American dollar coins than I think I would have to go with the Iron Workers and the Code Talkers. But if this is going to continue then certainly, you know, Sequoyah, George Gist should be recognized. I think it's just an absolutely fabulous symbolism that we should use in recognizing the Cherokee language. So my vote was going to go for Sequoyah and the Code Talkers only because the Code Talkers we do have a tremendous amount of imagery already. And basically in our Code Talkers imagery we're kind of, we seem to be seeing the same Code Talker all the time. So I don't think it would be that hard to have one of those images representing all of the tribes. I think it's an interesting concept and also an educational one to go along with our, the coin to go along with all of our medals. And I do have to disagree that we're having too many of them. We're not. Each one of these are 50 medals to go to a tribe. They're not being circulated, you know, to the general public. So to have a Code Talker on a coin I think is absolutely fabulous. Chair Marks: Thank you, Jeanne. Okay. Now, Heidi, I'm not used to you going last all the time. But there you are and I would just like to know what your thoughts might be. Heidi? Member Wastweet: Sorry I was still on mute. This is Heidi. I don't have a real strong opinion here. I agree with what Jeanne said. If there's no danger in this program going away, then I for simplicity would prefer that we just continue to go in chronological order. If there's any danger at all of the program being canceled than we would certainly take a different view. But it sounds like if it is in perpetuity and we're pretty safe there I say we just keep going in chronological order even though it's not required. That's it. Chair Marks: Directions we could go with our consideration today. One, often when we've talked about these initial concepts our comments. However, we could also take a motion and vote out, you know, which of the two that we really want to emphasize and recommend. I'm not sure how that kind of voting process would work right now. I didn't hear and maybe I didn't perceive it correctly, but I did not hear that we're all necessarily on the same page. So at this point before I ask the committee to kind of enlighten the rest of us on what we want to do here, I want to ask the staff if our comments that are on record now are sufficient or would you perceive a specific recommendation that is desirable? Ms. Stafford: Mr. Chairman, this is April Stafford. We agree here that what we've received thus far for 51 input is sufficient. Chair Marks: Okay. So with that I want to ask members of the committee are you satisfied resting on our comments that we've contributed or would you like to offer a more specific recommendation by way of a motion? Member Olson: Gary, it's Mike Olson. I think we need to vote on the two that we favor the most. Chair Marks: Others? Member Bugeja: Michael Bugeja. I think we should leave it up to the Mint staff. Member Wastweet: This is Heidi, I agree that we should go ahead and let the staff just use our comments as is. Member Jansen: This is Erik Jansen. I think we, for the benefit of the larger process here and the players and decision makers on the Hill and so forth, I would like to leave it up to the Mint to pass through the various comments in whatever rank or relative supported order they feel is representative in the discussion. Member Uram: This is Tom Uram. I feel the same. And it sounds to me like a lot of us agreed on the Cherokees being the primary one. And then it seems to me like there's still opportunities for the second one to follow. But it also sounded like everyone, that a lot of the colleagues here want to just stay in chronological order as well. So I would just leave it to the staff as well based on those comments that we've heard. Member Moran: Gary, Mike Moran. I second Tom Uram's comments. Member Hoge: with that too. This is Robert Hoge and I agree Chair Marks: Okay. Well, Michael Olson, I think if 52 you made a motion you wouldn't get a second. Member Olson: I'm just not sure why we're relinquishing our ability to make a decision here to the Mint staff. But if that's the sentiment of the committee I will certainly go with it. Chair Marks: Well it's not without precedent, however, you know, personally I might prefer maybe a more specific recommendation given that there are six on the table. But I'm not really sure what gravity it would truly have compared to the recommendations from the Hill groups. So I'm satisfied to let it stand as is at this point. So are there any other comments before we conclude our meeting today? Member Steven-Sollman: This is Jeanne. I was wondering if Don is able to filter out all of our comments and will he be able to go back to them as artists and know, will they be able to kind of settle on two. Member Scarinci: Well I don't think that's the artist's decision to make. I think that has to come from Washington. Chair Marks: This is Gary Marks. I will contribute this thought. I see that, Jeanne, as a different step in the process. I think today was merely to provide our input on a design theme. Those themes now need to be formally established within the Mint's process and I believe that probably goes up to Treasury somehow. But I would hope that once those are established that as we approach 2015 for example, that the committee at that point might be asked for actual design contributions or thoughts on that specific year. So at this point I think we're talking about two different steps in the process. Member Steven-Sollman: Yes, I guess I'm 53 confused, Gary, because I'm not sure if we were charged to send a message of only two themes or do we just agree that these are all, and they are, they all are very honorable themes to work on. Chair Marks: I think probably the greatest overarching point of today I think is to comment to the Mint about the appropriateness of each of these. And I think we've accomplished that. But again, I would hope that in the spirit of these new processes that we've been engaged in lately as far as design concepts that we be offered an opportunity prior to 2015, prior to 2016 to add specific comments about specific established design themes as appropriate. So I would hope that we have another step in this before we actually get to the artist actually developing images. So are there any other comments? Staff, do you have anything else you would like to contribute? Mr. Everhart: Washington staff we're good to go. Chair Marks: It's always good to know that. Okay. Well I want to thank the staff for all of your hard work in preparing for this meeting. And speaking for the committee I think I can safely say that we're all anticipating the furtherance of these processes and particularly seeing the actual designs when they come before us. So with that I also want to thank each of the committee members. You did your homework prior to this meeting. It was very obvious. And I very much appreciate that and the time that you have contributed here on the phone today. So with that the meeting will -Member Olson: Gary, before we adjourn can I just say one quick thing? Chair Marks: Please go ahead. 54 Member Olson: You know, I think you did an absolutely outstanding job with a very difficult meeting. Doing telephone meetings like this, especially with so many people, for those who have done meetings like this you know how difficult it is to give everybody the opportunity to speak with no one speaking over them or duplicating them. And you really managed a very complex call because it had so many different people involved in it in a very, very professional and excellent manner. And I think I speak for the whole committee when I express our thanks to you for running an excellent telephone meeting. (Chorus of Hear Hears) Chair Marks: Thank you all. I appreciate that greatly. I think most of you know me by know. It's just simply a labor of love. And I just, this is something I love to do. So thank you very much. Okay so with that -Member Olson: Motion to adjourn. Chair Marks: Okay. Motion to adjourn. Is there a second? Member Bugeja: Second. Chair Marks: In favor say aye. (Chorus of Ayes) Chair Marks: everyone. We are adjourned. Thank you (Chorus of Byes) (Whereupon, the meeting in the above-entitled matter was concluded at 3:56 p.m.)