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Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING Wednesday, October 7, 2015 10:36 a.m. United States Mint Headquarters 801 Ninth Street, N.W. Washington, D.C. Reported by: 20220 Erick McNair, Capital Reporting Company (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 2 A P P E A R A N C E S Members Present: ERIK JANSEN GARY MARKS MICHAEL MORAN DONALD SCARINCI JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN THOMAS J. URAM HEIDI WASTWEET ROBERT HOGE* MARY N. LANNIN, Chairperson (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 3 A P P E A R A N C E S (Continued) Also Present: STEVE ANTONUCCI, U.S. Mint* BETTY BIRDSONG DON EVERHART, U.S. Mint STACY KELLEY, U.S. Mint BILL NORTON APRIL STAFFORD, U.S. Mint MEGAN SULLIVAN, U.S. Mint MIKE UNSER, Coin News* GREG WEINMAN, U.S. Mint *Appears via telephone. * * * * * (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 4 P R O C E E D I N G S MS. LANNIN: I would like to call to order the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee for October 7th and October 8th, 2015. The members of the Committee that we have present in the room are Erik Jansen, Gary Marks, Michael Moran, Donald Scarinci, Jeanne Stevens-Sollman, Tom Uram, and Heidi Wastweet. And on the phone in Spain, we have Robert Hoge. MR. ANTONUCCI: Also Steve Antonucci in Philadelphia. MS. LANNIN: Steve, nice to hear you. The CCAC will consider the following items during both days of our meeting. We are going to review and discuss the 2017 and 2018 Native American dollar coins. We are going to review and discuss the candidate designs for the Congressional Gold Medals honoring the World War II and World War II Native American Code Talkers of the Pueblo of Laguna and the St. Regis Mohawk tribe. There will be a discussion of the concept and theme of the 2017 Boys Town Centennial Commemorative Coin Program and the 2018 America the Beautiful Quarters Program. There will also be a (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 5 discussion of the designation of the CCAC members to serve on a panel to select the 2018 design of the World War I American Veterans Centennial Commemorative Coin. There will be a review and discussion of the candidate designs for the 2017 America the Beautiful Quarters Program as well as a review and discussion of the candidate designs for the 2017 Lions Club Century of Service Commemorative Coin program. So before we begin our proceedings, which members of the press are in attendance? MR. UNSER: Mike Unser with Coin News. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Hello. Is there anybody else that is on the phone? (No response.) MS. LANNIN: Okay. All right. So the Mint staff, including Steve, who has let us know he is here. Do we have any questions that need to be addressed or anything? Anything you want to say before we start the meeting? MS. STAFFORD: Okay. There is one thing. Anyone on the phone, if you could please mute your phone. you have the capability, please mute your phone. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 If Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 6 Thank you. Okay. REVIEW AND DISCUSS CANDIDATE DESIGNS FOR THE 2017 AND 2018 NATIVE AMERICAN $1 COINS MS. LANNIN: The first item on the agenda is a discussion of the letter to the Secretary and the minutes from the previous meetings. Those items were included in the meeting binders for the members to review. Does anybody have any comments or discussion? (No response.) MS. LANNIN: minutes. Okay. I move to approve the And the Secretary -- any seconds? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. LANNIN: I second. Jeanne, second. Thank you. All those in favor signify by saying aye. (Chorus of "Ayes.") MS. LANNIN: Any opposed? (No response.) MS. LANNIN: No opposed. The ayes have it. The motion is agreed to. Okay. We are now going to begin the business of the Committee in April with your cough drops and Kleenex. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 7 MS. STAFFORD: It is public law 110-82 that requires the Secretary of the Treasury to mint and issue one-dollar coins in honor of Native Americans the important contributions made by Indian tribes and individual Native Americans to the development and history of the United States. The act mandates a reverse design for these coins with an image emblematic of one important Native American or Native American contribution each year in chronological order through 2016. We will continue to release Native American dollar coins per the legislation. However, after 2016, there is no requirement to release them in chronological order. We will review designs for 2017 and 2018 today honoring Sequoyah of Cherokee Nation and the Jim Thorpe of Sac and Fox, respectively. We worked closely with the National Museum of the American Indian on the concepts and designs of these coins. We also consulted with the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs, the Congressional Native American Caucus of the House of Representatives, and the National Congress of the American Indian on both (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 8 the concepts for these and the designs themselves. We also reached out to Cherokee Nation and the sons of Jim Thorpe for their input on designs. Please note that we removed any reference to talking leaves from the Sequoyah materials based on feedback from Cherokee Nation. Their view is that the term "talking leaves" is often used to describe Sequoyah's invention, but there is no documented evidence that Sequoyah actually used the term himself. Cherokee likened this term to the story of George Washington chopping down the cherry tree, a good story but not grounded in documented history. So some background on our 2017 subject matter. Sequoyah of Cherokee Nation, also known as George Guess, 1779 through 1843, inventor of the Cherokee Syllabary. Sequoyah adapted writing of the Cherokee language by devising symbols for each syllable. His achievement is one of only a handful of examples in world history regarding the development of an original writing system. After 12 years of work, Sequoyah unveiled the system in a demonstration with his daughter, A-Yo-Ka. News spread quickly, and (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 9 Cherokees flocked to learn the system. In 1821, the Cherokee Nation adopted it as its own. And within months, thousands of Cherokee became literate. The Cherokee Syllabary gave birth to Native American journalism. The first American Indian newspaper, the Cherokee Phoenix, included editorials, which embodied the Cherokees' determination to retain their lands, news on the activities of the Cherokee government, as well as relations with the federal and state governments. This written language helped create a dialogue between Cherokee Nation and the United States government, and assisted in the preservation of the interests, hopes, and struggles of Cherokee Indians during a unique time in our nation's history. Inscriptions: "In God We Trust." The obverse continues to bear While the required inverse inscriptions are "United States of America" and "$1," the edge-incused inscriptions are "E Pluribus Unum" and "2017" or when we talk later about the Jim Thorpe coins "2018." Moving on to the candidate designs for the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 10 2017 Native American dollar coin program, reverse 1 depicts a cropped profile of Sequoyah writing "United States of America" in Cherokee Syllabary along the border of the design. It also contains the additional inscription "Cherokee Syllabary." This design is a preference of the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs as well as the National Congress of the American Indian. Suggestions from them include adding Sequoyah's name and perhaps replacing the inscription "United States of America" that is written in Cherokee with "Cherokee Nation" written in Cherokee. Reverse 2 depicts a profile of Sequoyah creating the original characters for the Cherokee Syllabary. The additional inscriptions are "Cherokee Syllabary" as well as Sequoyah's name inscribed in English at the lower border and in Cherokee above his writing tablet. This design is a preference of the National Congress of the American Indian and the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs. One suggestion was to change the inscription from "Cherokee Syllabary" to "Cherokee Nation" written in Cherokee. Reverse 3 depicts Sequoyah holding a writing (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 11 plume and his tablet. The additional inscription, "Sequoyah," is inscribed in both Cherokee and English along the bottom border of the design. Reverse 4 depicts Sequoyah holding a copy of the Cherokee Syllabary up to the viewer. His name is inscribed along the bottom border of the design in Cherokee and English. Reverse 5 depicts a quill and Cherokee Nation's logo: the seven-pointed star. The tip of the quill pen rests at the final stroke in Sequoyah's name, which is written in Cherokee. included in English. His name is also This is a preference of the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs. However, there was some commentary that the final design should include the likeness of Sequoyah. Reverses 6 and 7 depict Sequoyah, either writing or pointing to the characters of the Cherokee Syllabary. This is reverse 6 and 7. Reverse 8 depicts an image of Sequoyah holding his tablet. The additional inscriptions are "Sequoyah" and "Inventor of the Cherokee Syllabary." Reverse 9 depicts Sequoyah looking at his (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 12 tablet with additional inscriptions. Well, there are several Cherokee characters along the inner circle of the design. This is a preference of the National Congress of the American Indian. Suggestions include removing the floating letters and including the inscription "Cherokee Nation" written in Cherokee. Reverse 10 features Sequoyah sitting at a desk with a quill in hand and the additional inscription "Sequoyah." This design is a preference of the Congressional Native American Caucus of the House of Representatives. Reverse 11 features Sequoyah with quill in hand as he points to his newly developed syllabary. The additional inscription is "Sequoyah." This design is also a reference of the Congressional Native American Caucus of the House of Representatives. Reverse 12 depicts Sequoyah pointing to the syllabary as his daughter, Ay-O-Ka, looks on. The design includes the additional inscription "Sequoyah." This design is a preference of the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs. And, finally, reverse 13 features Sequoyah (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 13 and his daughter, who is holding the syllabary. It contains the additional inscription "Sequoyah." And, with that, Madam Chair, back to you for discussion. MS. LANNIN: Well, thank you. I am not sure that we have ever, at least in the time that I have been here, had so many preferences set forth before us. First of all, to go back to a system that has seemed to have worked very well and we had quite a few choices, also, do you have any technical questions before we start? MS. WASTWEET: April, can you clarify specifically if this coin is to commemorate the invention of the language or the inventor of the language? MS. STAFFORD: Well, if I go back to the opening remarks regarding the legislation, it is to honor Native Americans and the important contributions made by Indian tribes and individual Native Americans to the development and history of the United States. MR. WEINMAN: So the answer is yes. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 14 (Laughter.) MS. STAFFORD: And the concept that was developed was specifically about Sequoyah and his contribution. MS. WASTWEET: So it is left up to an interpretation of whether we want the inventor or the invention? Okay. And, second question, on number 9, you said there was a preference to remove the floating letters? MS. STAFFORD: Yes. MS. WASTWEET: Do those letters mean something or were they just examples of the characters? MS. STAFFORD: Examples of the syllabary. MS. WASTWEET: Okay. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thank you. We have been given, it looks like, if I have done this correctly, number 1, number 2, number 5, number 9, number 10, number 11, and number 12. MS. WASTWEET: Was it 10? MS. STAFFORD: Not 10. MS. LANNIN: I thought it was. I am sorry. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 15 I thought it was 10. MS. STAFFORD: MS. LANNIN: No. My mistake. Are there any designs that we would like to eliminate going through this very quickly? And then we can talk about the individual ones because there are so many. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Can we talk about the ones that are the preferences -MS. LANNIN: Sure. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: -- and eliminate those that aren't? MS. LANNIN: Sure. That is not a problem. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I will move that we do that. MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: Second. PARTICIPANT: I am sorry? The motion is to eliminate all except preference. MS. LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: Do we have a second for that? MS. LANNIN: I second. MR. SCARINCI: Donald? All right. Can we repeat what would (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 16 remain? MS. STAFFORD: Sure. So if we are only looking at the designs which have been marked as preferences by the committees with which we work, it is reverse 1, reverse 2, reverse 5, reverse 9, reverse 10, reverse 11, reverse 12. MS. LANNIN: MS. STAFFORD: And reverse 13 is out; right? Correct. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. LANNIN: Okay. So for the record, we are eliminating 6, 7, 8, and 13. PARTICIPANT: Three. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. LANNIN: And 3 and 4. MR. SCARINCI: information. Three and 4. Donald? And one further point of The ones that are recommended by members of Congress are which ones? MS. STAFFORD: Reverse 1, reverse 2, reverse 5, reverse 9, reverse 10, reverse 11, and reverse 12. So all of them. MR. SCARINCI: are. All of them. All of them Okay. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 17 MR. MORAN: Yes, all of them. MR. SCARINCI: MR. MORAN: Okay. They did multiples on us. MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: I wish they would agree. Some of them did several preferences. MR. JANSEN: Madam Chair? MS. LANNIN: All in favor? MR. JANSEN: Just a comment. I am sorry. Erik? I think this Committee is very sensitive to the preferences of the outside communities, related agencies, museums, experts, foundations, and so forth in any of these contexts. I just want to be clear that we are selecting the best art here and not necessarily incorporating a standard policy here. MS. LANNIN: Okay. That is so noted. All right. Donald, would you like to begin? All in favor say aye, please. (Chorus of "Ayes.") MS. LANNIN: Any opposed? (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 18 PARTICIPANT: MS. LANNIN: Opposed. Okay. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. LANNIN: Excuse me. MR. SCARINCI: I am sorry. No. Jeanne? It is just that no, we are not establishing a policy. No, we are not. No, we are not establishing a policy that we are ignoring art. You know, I think all of these designs are -- yes? I am sorry. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I have a question. What was the motion that we just voted on. MR. WEINMAN: The motion was to eliminate designs number 3, 4, 6, 7, 8 -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Oh, okay. As a culling? MR. WEINMAN: -- and 13 from consideration. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: okay. Okay. So we had to -- Thank you. MS. LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: Thank you, sir. Yes. Sorry. And I think if there was any one of these that was like, you know, outstanding art and it wasn't a preference, you know, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 19 we would probably all have, you know, rallied behind it and fumbled on each other to make sure it was included in our deliberations. absolutely clear, you know. So I just wanted to be And, notwithstanding that, of course, you know, there is always deference to those people who are elected to serve the public, as opposed to those of us who are appointed. So I think this is a good group of designs to look at and to consider and a perfectly good way to narrow down, you know, our deliberations. For me, I think it is pretty clear, you know, I think even among the broader group of them, I think number 11 is the one that I would pick, for a lot of reasons. series. I think it is consistent with the I think it is a simple design. You know, I think it is a forceful and powerful design. you can see clearly. I think You know, it communicates a simple theme in contrast to number 12, which is more storyboardish with the, you know, multiple figures and a little busier, as opposed to 9, you know, that kind of had these numbers, you know, these letters floating in the field. And we would probably have to make a (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 20 motion, you know, to deal with cleaning it up. And then you have got the question about the pipe. I am sure we will hear other people talking about all of those things after that design, you know, as opposed to number 10, you know, which kind of looks a bit cartoonish, you know, and with a single word below it. So I think the one that is the most consistent with the series and that is probably the most communicative is number 11. None of them are particularly strong. You know, obviously, nothing here is terribly abstract or complex, you know. But, then again, the theme that is being depicted is going to require, you know, some bit of learning and some bit of research. And that is kind of the beauty of this particular series. So I think you have to take every coin within its own series, you know, and understand it within its own series. So, looking at it that way, I reach for number 11 as the obvious pick. MS. LANNIN: Jeanne, would you like to go next? (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 21 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Sure. First of all, I would like to compliment the artists for their research and their design work on these medals. thought they were very interesting. I When I reviewed the portfolio, I did this a number of times and put it away and go back to it. I am always hopefully there is one that really jumps out at me. And the ones that I was happy to know that some of people in Congress and the other stakeholders enjoyed was 1 and 2. their simplicity. They spoke to me because of It was obvious that this is Sequoyah, and he obviously is creating the writing information. I think number 1 was very powerful because it was so original. And I think when we are looking at these coins, I look for originality. I look with something that is totally outstanding that separates itself from everything else. If you look at number 2, it was interesting to see the circle offset. And I think that was very important where we have somebody who is innovative in Sequoyah's work to also be a little more innovative in (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 22 offsetting that circle. So I am definitely putting my vote toward 1 and 2. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Jeanne. Erik, would you like to add something there? MR. JANSEN: Thank you. Whenever I look at these -- Jeanne comes back multiple times -- I try to look at them before I have read the artists' comments and then read the artists' comments to see if I got those from the appearance of the art. When I did that in this process, what became very clear in my mind was if we are to carry forth this luminal or otherwise message in the art here, the distinctive, almost -- and I only say this because it is so foreign. The Cyrillic language often invites a visual startling awareness of what a foreign, nonArabic character set can look like. And so I think the actual character set here might be a way to visually wake up the observer to see there is something going on here that is not in the normal flow of life. And I think that is an important piece of this art. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 23 So when I went through these, I found myself drawn to those designs that had the character set and the startling exposure of that set. Now, you put that against the relatively small pallet of your quarter, and it becomes a pretty bright line, I think, to look at designs that will "work"; that is, convey the message in those, where the details may lose the message or the message is lost in the detail. So I put that out there for Committee members to look at to make sure that you analyze the appearance in pallet of messaging. The second point I would like to make relative to the motion to strike a number of these designs, there was a technique used in 3 and 4, and it appears slightly in design 9, which is almost a fisheye effect, where we used the perspective of wide angle to accentuate that that otherwise might disappear in detail. I will actually highlight it in design 4. I know it is not on the table for consideration, but I want to give some acknowledgement to the artistic technique and ID it here because I (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 24 think it might be valuable going forward, from our awareness and the feedback that the artist might take away from our dialogue. So I think that kind of opportunity to discuss the art was lost in that motion. And so I want to bring it back onto the table just for the record and with respect to the artist that deployed that. I like it. I would like to see it again. Don't interpret those designs and their elimination as a rejection of that artistic approach. In design number 1, I was very glad to hear the assertion of changing the perimeter as it appears from the 1:00 o'clock to 5:00 o'clock positions. was going to ask, is it historically accurate? I Did the Cherokee Nation and the use of this language ever really translate the "United States of America"? And so I was questioning its authenticity on the coin. If we adopt design number 1, I really like that change. I think it is respectful and appropriate to the context we are trying to pass these designs through for accuracy. Design number 2, I really enjoyed the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 25 relative font size of the character set. is important. I think that And I would echo Jeanne's comments. The offset circular design was an eye-catcher to me. I really like that. It drug my eye to exactly where that character set appears. And I think the message comes along that there is somebody committing to communications something different here. I like the subliminal messaging and visual appeal of design number 2. On design number 5, a couple of historical notes for accuracy. What is the significance of a seven-point star here? MS. STAFFORD: It is the symbol of the Cherokee Nation. MR. JANSEN: Okay. Thank you very much. And the quill, while familiar to those devotees of American Revolutionary commitment of famous documents -(Music interruption.) MR. URAM: That is when the confetti all starts coming down. (Laughter.) (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 26 MR. JANSEN: PARTICIPANT: Wow. I guess that is it. We are done. (Laughter.) MR. WEINMAN: A reminder to everybody to please mute your phone when you are -(Laughter.) MR. JANSEN: So the question -- and maybe when April comes back from her panic attack to the -(Laughter.) MR. JANSEN: essential symbol here? Is the quill a true and It appeared in so many of these. MR. MORAN: Erik, can I answer that? The answer is yes because they used those quills to transport gold in the 1840s. And the gold fields of Georgia very much is. MR. JANSEN: Okay. So just a question on that. Continuing on to design number 5, this Committee has many times asked for symbolic, as opposed to pictorial approaches in the art. And I (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 27 want to acknowledge whoever the artist was for giving us that so that we don't have just a picture cast nor struck in metal here. Actually, I like design number 5, if only on that basis, also on its own. It lacks the personification of the instigator of the communications mode. And that may be a tragic flaw against the criteria the Committee wants to use, but I did like design 5. Designs 9 and 10 both felt caricature cartoonish. And so I don't care for either of those designs and, in particular, design number 10. I feel like the Native American would=-be message here is almost Anglicized by the subtle incorporation of a businessman's tie or businesswoman's tie and collar here. I don't like that design on that very basis. Eleven and 12 come in as secondary choices behind probably 1 and 2 in my book. I think their use or the demonstration of the symbology, the character set is lost. And I think design number 12, in particular, almost turns into a memorial of pedagogy, as opposed to what we are really trying to do when you talk about the mode of communications that is so (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 28 important to the development of civility. Thank you very much. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Erik. MS. STAFFORD: Madam Chair, may I make a quick announcement? MS. LANNIN: Certainly. MS. STAFFORD: For anyone on the phone, in addition to keeping your phones on mute, if you could not put us on hold, that would be helpful because that is the music, the feedback that we just received. So just a note for those on the phone, and back to you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. MR. JANSEN: I thought I said the magic word. MS. STAFFORD: Sorry. Thank you. Just to confirm for Mr. Jansen, yes, we did validate the Cherokee language with the Cherokee Nation in terms of the translations. MS. LANNIN: Yes. MR. JANSEN: Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Gary? MR. MARKS: Thank you, Madam Chair. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 29 I guess some evidence that I have been here perhaps too long is I will hearken back to 2008. I think Donald will recall this. And We were considering aspect 2 of the Lincoln cent reverse for 2009. There was a design I think was ahead of its time, a very modern design. The subject matter was Lincoln learning how to or teaching himself to be literate, and it was a hand. out his name. If I recall right, he was spelling I always felt it was a terrible loss that we didn't pick that one. And so when I saw the collection here for today, I was reminded of that design with number 1. If we could bring that one up? It is not exactly the same idea but kind of reminiscent of that more modern approach. So I do find that design very appealing. I think that it absolutely cannot go forward without Sequoyah's name on it. As I look at the legislation, there does seem to be a heavy emphasis on individuals. And I think it would be a shame not to give credit plainly to Sequoyah. Also, I like the change in the inscription, as was noted before, with the syllabary on the edge. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 30 So I really find that one very appealing. Likewise, 2 is also very appealing. I like the offset circle, again, a little more modern approach. I am guessing it is the same artist. I would be pleased with either one of those selections. I also want to comment on 5. I really like the simplicity of this design, particularly approve the -- there is some wonderful negative space there that would create some great contrast. So I could feel good about that one, too. Those are the three that I really hope the Committee makes a recommendation of one of those. I also want to mention that back when this series started in 2009, the first design that was minted, first reverse, used a style of font that was then carried through 2010, '11, and '12. it in '13 and '14. Somehow we lost It is a shame because it was really lending some continuity or feel of a series. And in any of these designs selected today, I would like to after depending on what we pick talk about maybe an additional recommendation that we consider going back to that font. I think it was a real aid in (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 31 creating a feel of a series. So those are my remarks. I thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Gary. Michael? MR. MORAN: Yes, ma'am. April, in all due respect, the lead-in on Sequoyah was a bit idealistic. I want to set the record straight in that regard because I think it will help explain why I am going to recommend what I recommend. 1802. The story started in When Georgia and the United States cut a deal. The United States would get rid of the Indians in Georgia, and Georgia would cede the territory that they claimed that is now Alabama and Mississippi. There was a problem in 1802. The United States made a treaty with the Cherokee Nation leaving them in place where they were, which included North Carolina and parts of Georgia. The Cherokee once they had this treaty in place began what I would call a white manization in that they adopted a constitution. standalone. Sequoyah was not a He was part of the greater game plan with (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 32 the Cherokee to adopt the white man's ways. adopted their language. They adopted farming. actually settled on farms. man's religion. a white man. They They They adopted the white They became as close as they could to In other words, they got with the program. Another thing they did was you know Sequoyah had a second name. They had a tradition of adopting names of white men that were significant. And that became their names, which leads me to the second part of this story, which revolves around the Cherokee Phoenix. In 1821 or 1822, as Sequoyah's language was coming out, the missionaries that were down there working with the Cherokee selected one Cherokee named Buck. They sent Buck north to Yale to go to school. They were going to educate him. Buck went north. And one of the things he did was he stopped in New Jersey. Somehow he survived New Jersey. (Laughter.) MR. MORAN: But he stopped there. stayed at the home of Elias Boudinot. And he Elias Boudinot (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 33 you may or may not recall was both president of the Continental Congress, which was basically President of the United States; and the third director of the U.S. Mint. He had retired to New Jersey. And at that point in time, he was president of the American Bible Society. Well, Buck was so significantly impressed by Elias Boudinot that he adopted his name. So you have a second Elias Boudinot out there, who went to Yale, came back, and started the Cherokee Phoenix, the newspaper. Now, we are into the late 1820s. And the whole thing began to become unraveled there because they had discovered gold in North Carolina. And it seemed to stop right at the edge of the Cherokee Nation. the boundary. Well, it didn't stop at And, furthermore, they discovered that it wasn't just racer gold. There was gold in quartz seams there, particularly underneath the City of Charlotte. And that really started the rush and the pressure to get at the Cherokee lands. The State of Georgia passed legislation, which effectively exculpated their lands. The (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 34 Cherokee were of color. Therefore, they had no standing and stayed course. They could not defend their right and title to their land. By 1832, with the gold rush fully on, they were basically being pushed out of their territory. And there was a clamor from Jackson to get them out of Georgia. until 1838. This went on At this point in time, in April of 1838, the mint at Dahlonega was placed in service. All of a sudden, you have the United States Mint operating on Indian territory. Basically, Martin Van Buren, then the President, signed the papers that set the Cherokee and gave their turn-on to travel on the Trail of Tears. It is a tragedy. There is another tragedy to this. And that is that the Cherokee had a law that you could not make a treaty without the support of the rest of your nation. And the penalty was execution, death. There were a handful of the Cherokee leaders, including Elias Boudinot, who felt like they were going to have to accept the inevitable that there was gold on their land and they were going to lose it and that they needed to cut the best deal they could. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 35 They made a treaty, which permitted the removal to Oklahoma. And when the tribe completed that treaty, Elias Boudinot was executed. So there you have the real story. rough one. It is a My point of this is that this is bigger than Sequoyah. Cherokee Nation. This is a chance to recognize the There were people who when this was going on advocated that the Cherokee should apply for statehood. And today that would have happened. they would have been granted statehood status. And They should have been, but they were shoved out of there. There is only one design here -- and thank God it is good -- that really says this is more than just Sequoyah inventing a language. resilience of the Cherokee Nation. It was the entire And that is number 5. It is a great design. It is not to knock your eyeballs out, but there is good negative space. There is a seven-pointed star for the Cherokee Nation. There is this quill writing "Sequoyah." I would argue they ought to be writing "Cherokee Nation." got "Sequoyah" over there in English. We have I think that (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 36 says more because if you just put the image of the man there, you don't get the story of the Cherokee. And the story of the Cherokee is far, far, far bigger than Sequoyah. MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Thank you, Michael. It is in my book. (Laughter.) MS. LANNIN: Excellent. PARTICIPANT: And he was moving to research it. MR. SCARINCI: I wish you would do your homework before you get here. (Laughter.) MR. MORAN: I just got it out of the book and read through it again and memorized it so I wouldn't screw it up, Donald. MS. LANNIN: Wow. That is impressive. Thank you. Heidi? MS. WASTWEET: MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Tough act to follow. Yes. Usually you are, particularly (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 37 animal faces. MS. WASTWEET: I am going to actually bounce this back to you again, though, because I want to understand more about how your bigger story really ties in to Sequoyah because the project as I understand it is isolating Sequoyah as a person forms achievement in establishing this language. said he was not acting alone. And you So if you could reiterate just a little more on his part in the bigger story? MR. MORAN: He was acting alone in that he developed the language. that. There is no question about But the development of the language was part of the bigger picture of the Cherokee moving to adopt the white man's ways. And so yes, I am kind of finessing this a little bit by doing the seven-pointed star, but I think this design does finesse it and gets it out there to where it is the Cherokee. And Sequoyah is a significant part of the story, not the entire story. And that is the reason for the seven-pointed star. And that is what makes me like that. MS. WASTWEET: So it seems to me, though, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 38 like you said, they were adapting English as -- no? MR. MORAN: No. Their own language, just a language. MS. WASTWEET: But you said as they were attempting to assimilate into the American culture, to fit in, they were adopting the language of the American nation, which would be English or they were -- so yes. Make it clear on that. MR. MORAN: They were not adopting English per se, but they were adopting a written language of their own that was consistent with the customs and practices of the white man. MS. WASTWEET: So developing their own alphabet was part of their attempt to bring their culture to the next level to fit within a developing nation? MR. MORAN: am sorry. Yes, yes. MS. WASTWEET: Do you have something? MR. SCARINCI: I just need to say -- MS. WASTWEET: Yes. MR. SCARINCI: I just have to say this. Go ahead. Mike's story is about -- Mike is talking (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 I Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 39 about the American conscience, I mean, not particularly about what the story of this coin is. And Mike is talking about a sad episode in American history, resulting, by the way, in a U.S. Supreme Court case where Justice Marshall ruled for the Cherokee and was told by President Jackson -MR. MORAN: "Enforce it." MR. SCARINCI: -- "Well, what you decide, you go enforce and use in court." MR. MORAN: That is absolutely true. MR. SCARINCI: sad episode in history. So Mike is talking about a This coin is not talking about a sad episode in American history. We don't talk about sad episodes in American history on American coins. We just don't do that. In this particular series, there are many, many, many more sad episodes than happy episodes. And if you notice, this is a happy series, not a sad series. So we are not talking about what he is talking about. It is great that he talked about it, and it is great that he put it on the record for history and numismatic history to know that we, this (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 40 Committee, have always been concerned about the real history of the American Indian in this country. MS. WASTWEET: That is a good point. That is a good point that we are aware of the negative side, even though this series is trying to focus on the positive and pull that out of the bigger tragic story. And, Mike, you are right that there is a lot more going on to the Cherokee Nation, but I am not fully convinced that that is the target of this coin. This I think is a focused coin that is talking about an individual, rather than the fuller nation. That would be a great topic for another coin to talk about the Cherokee's bigger story. MR. MORAN: The Trail of Tears. MS. WASTWEET: is not the bigger story. focused story. Yes. But I think this coin I think this coin is the And while I generally like the more symbolic designs and the simple designs, the number 5 would look fantastic on a coin. I think for this particular project, I think I would prefer to see the man portrayed. I think that is what most clearly represents this particular story and this particular (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 41 project. So, with that in mind, I will talk about those designs that do feature him. Initially I liked design number 11 because of the wonderful use of texture. Because we don't have color on coins, the way we color them is with texture and design and pattern. And this design achieves that, and I think it also still has the feeling of a coin versus some of the designs that feel more like a medal in their presentation. However, in the spirit of Michael Bugeja, who is not here, I want to caution us against having a two-faced coin. This is dangerously close to being an observe-looking design. So, therefore, that pushes me to designs 1 and 2, which are similar. There is some sway towards design number 1, but I am going to prefer design number 2 for these reasons. On design number 1, I don't like the way the dollar sign runs over the feather. It is a difficult layering for the sculptor to make that clear. It looks much more clear in the drawing here than it will on the coin. elegant. To run it over those layers is not And that $1 should be moved somewhere where (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 42 it is more clear. And then we get into that dangerous territory of now we are moving things around and changing things. The text in the negative space by the face looks like it was just a cut and paste after the thought. design. It wasn't thoughtfully put into the This design looks like it was drawn for something else and then adapted to this, it was squished into the space the way the head is held. So I am going to prefer design number 2. I love the fact that we have an offset circle. That is very creative. We have been asking for more creativity, and here it is. Also, because of the position of the body, it doesn't feel like too much of an obverse design. As Erik stated, to see the symbols in big, bold shape so we can see them with our eye is important. We can see that those are definitely foreign shapes. letters. They are not regular So it drives home that point of originality. So I think that this design is the one that is going to hit all of the marks for me. Design number 10 I think is very stiff in its placement, and it doesn't flow. I am not in favor (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 43 of that. And design 12, again, it is a dollar coin. Let's not put too much on here. This is getting into too much small detail. I think that completes my comments. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Heidi. Tom? MR. URAM: Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to limit my comments. After having heard my colleagues, I feel that number 2 and number 10 -- and I do feel that number 5 with the star is important, but I am kind of focused on 2 and 10. And I, too, like the circle and some of the modifications that would be made. My one thought would be, is it possible to have the seven-pointed star on the parchment or on the writing, like a letterhead, so that the seven-point star could be included in either of those designs so that where the person is writing, particularly number 10, it would be like a letterhead almost? mean, it could even be faded. But, I It doesn't need to be pronounced but just the fact that the seven-point star (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 44 could be included in either one of those parchmentlooking or tablet-looking designs there. So I think my votes would go more towards 2 and 10, but if there is a way to add the 7-point star into some of the other considerations that were being made for those designs, then that would be a way of including that, that element. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Tom. I don't want to forget Robert in Spain. So, Robert, do you have any comments? MR. HOGE: MS. LANNIN: Hello. Is it unmated? No, you are not muted. We can hear you just fine. MR. HOGE: Thank you. I like the aspects described of reverse 2 and reverse 5, but I think that my preference probably is going to go with reverse 11. I like the costume. We really don't know exactly what Sequoyah looked like. I guess he had the two paintings, Charles Bird King and David, to begin with. about the same. But they are basically These images of Sequoyah, each one (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 45 looks different to me. I guess we really don't know quite what he looks like. So I think we need to look at the imagery, the portraiture, on whichever one of these we would select. I could be happy with some of the other designs but prefer number 11. Put me on mute again. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Okay. Thank you, Robert. Tom has a correction to something he said. MR. URAM: Yes. I said 10. 11, not number 10, for the record. MS. LANNIN: I meant number Thank you. For adding the seven-point star? MR. URAM: not 2 and 10. Yes. My choices are 2 and 11, Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Okay. To add to what -- I mean, everybody has brought up really good points. think that the one that appeals the most to me is number 2. We are talking about the fact that he invented the syllabary. And number 1 becomes fuzzy where we think "Gee, what is this stuff? I don't (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 I Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 46 understand it. It looks different"; whereas, in number 2, just those symbols are at his eye level, at our eye level. in our hand. We don't have to turn the coin around And they are larger, and it becomes more obvious that it is a different writing method. So I like number 2 for that reason. I also agree with those of us that thought that 5 was really good. It was simplicity. And by adding the seven-pointed star, we are sort of showing the background of where Sequoyah came from. And we are honoring the tribe that way. Yes, Gary? MR. MARKS: on number 2. I have a late technical question Maybe Don would be the best person to respond to this. When we look at number 2, what is going to be frosted and what is going to be the field? I mean, I would think that the area right around Sequoyah, that inner circle, that would be part of the field. On a proof, that would be polish. Then those outer bands, do you have a feel for what we are looking at there? MR. EVERHART: Yes. The way I interpret (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 47 that, Gary, is that, as you say, the border area would be polished. be frosted. The circle that surrounds Sequoyah would And then the inner circle, which frames his head, would also be polished. MR. MARKS: That is the way -- So just that kind of offset circle kind of in the middle of all of the circles would be the frosted one? MR. EVERHART: MR. MARKS: Yes. Okay. MR. EVERHART: Along with the relief, of course. MR. MARKS: Right, right, exactly. Okay. Just listening to everybody's comments here, I am settling more into number 2. really has it all. design. I feel like it It has a modern touch to the It shows Sequoyah. It shows him writing. has the language. It has his name. What else could we possibly want? I mean, no, it doesn't have the It seven-point star, but absent that, I think that that is just a solid design. And it goes and it does everything that I think is desirable for this coin. MS. LANNIN: Thanks, Gary. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 48 MR. JANSEN: Madam Chair, focusing again on 2, it seems to be a popular design. So I will drill a little further into the sculpt here. Don, where would you for maximum impact look at incuse versus positive relief of this design? MR. EVERHART: I don't see any incuse opportunities on this one. MR. JANSEN: It is a proof point. Yes. MR. EVERHART: I am not seeing anything to jump out to me and say, "This should be incuse." MR. JANSEN: lead the witness. By my prior comments, I kind of Would you go incuse with the Cherokee character set here just to highlight that? MR. EVERHART: Well, the fact that it sits on part of the problem would be my feeling on that. MR. JANSEN: Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Any further discussion? Any other ideas that have popped in mind? (No response.) MS. LANNIN: vote. Okay. then we will begin our I have asked Tom to help sort of coordinate everything. We have got Greg here with a template (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 49 that is going to make tallying everything much easier for us. MS. WASTWEET: Would like mind if I reiterate our voting procedure for the record? MS. LANNIN: Go right ahead. MS. WASTWEET: I would like to remind everyone about our voting system. vote for just your favorite design. You don't have to rate them 1, 2, and 3. You don't have to And our voting system is not just to choose the best of designs but also as a feedback for the artist and the things that we want to see again in the future. So if there is a characteristic here that you think deserves merit and give it some points and give only your favorite the top score: 3 being a score of excellent; 2 being a score of good; and 1 being merit; and 0, of course, being something you don't want to see again. Thank you. MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: Pass your ballot instructions. While he is adding everything into the computer, April, would you like to begin? MS. STAFFORD: Sure. Moving on to the 2018 (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 50 Native American dollar coin honoring Jim Thorpe or Wa-Tho-Huk, meaning path lit by lightning, or bright path, with Sac and Fox, 1888 through 1953. Born in the town of Prague, Oklahoma, Jim Thorpe may be possibly the most versatile natural athlete of the early 20th Century. After a difficult youth, running away from school after several family crises, Thorpe came into his own at the Carlisle Indian Industrial School in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Carlisle then had the services of one of the great early football coaches, Glenn Scobey, Pop, Warner, and fielded a national championship team, led by Thorpe. At the time, Thorpe was the core of the school's track and field team, also coached by Warner. And the story is that Warner was reluctant to let his track star run the risk of playing football. Thorpe was named to the all-American first team in 1911 and 1912. In 1911, Carlisle upset Harvard 18 to 15 as Thorpe scored all its points, making 4 field goals and a touchdown. In 1912, Carlisle won the national collegiate championship, where it beat Army 27 to 6. In that game, a cadet (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 51 named Dwight D. Eisenhower injured his knee trying to tackle Thorpe. In 1912, Thorpe represented the U.S. at the Summer Olympics in Stockholm, Sweden competing in the new pentathlon and decathlon as well as two field events. He easily won both multi-event medals, finishing first and 8 in the combined 15 events. His point record stood for two decades. In an often-told story, King Gustav V of Sweden, presenting Thorpe a special decathlon award, told him "You are the greatest athlete in the world." And Thorpe replied, "Thanks, King." (Laughter.) MS. STAFFORD: Thorpe then embarked on an incredibly varied career, with the public flocking to his professional appearances in football, baseball, and basketball. He played for six teams in what later became the National Football League. In 1922, he became the first president of the American Professional Football Association, precursor of the NFL. In baseball, he played for the New York Giants, the Cincinnati Reds, and the Boston Braves. He also (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 52 organized an all-Indian football team, reuniting some Carlisle players. Today, sports writers rank him at the top of their lists of greatest athletes of the 20th Century. So on to the candidate designs. Reverse 1, 2, and 3 highlight Jim Thorpe's participation in decathlon events held during the 1912 Summer Olympics in Stockholm, Sweden. This is reverse 1, reverse 2, and reverse 3, which also incorporates a black sparrow hawk, a reference to Thorpe's ancestor Chief Black Hawk. All of these designs also contain one or more of the following additional inscriptions, "Jim Thorpe," "Bright Path," "Wa-Tho-Huk," and "AllAmerican Olympian." Moving on to reverse 4, this depicts Jim Thorpe in the background while the foreground highlights his achievements in football and as an Olympian. The design contains the additional inscriptions "Jim Thorpe" and "The Bright Path." This design is the preference of Jim Thorpe's sons and the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs. One suggestion was to include his Indian name, Wa-Tho-Huk, instead of (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 53 "Bright Path." Reverses 5 and 6 depict Jim Thorpe as a football player or an Olympian discus thrower. The additional inscriptions include his English name and his Indian name. This is reverse 5 and reverse 6. Reverse 7 depicts Jim Thorpe as he waits for the javelin throw event. It incorporates a stylized black sparrow hawk, a reference to Thorpe's ancestor Chief Black Hawk. The additional inscriptions are "Jim Thorpe," "Wa-Tho-Huk," and "All-American." Reverses 8, 9, and 10 highlight Jim Thorpe's football career. This is reverse 8. Reverse 9 also incorporates his Olympic medals and a black sparrow hawk, as we noted before, a reference to his ancestor. And reverse 10 incorporates a silhouette of Chief Black Hawk. All of these designs contain one or more of the additional inscriptions "Jim Thorpe," "Bright Path," "Wa-Tho-Huk," or "Spirit of Excellence." Reverses 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15 highlight Jim Thorpe's athleticism. 13. This is design 11, 12, and And I will pause there to inform you that designs 11 and 13 depict Thorpe in his football gear, while 12 (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 54 has him proudly displaying his Olympic Gold Medals. If we could just go back to 12 as that was a quite important point for many of our stakeholders? In the background of all three of these designs are silhouettes of Thorpe engaging in the 15-meter run, the hurdles, the shot put, and the discus throw events. Moving on to design 14, it depicts a moon with baseball and football gear in front of him while design 15 depicts him posed in his athletic gear. The designs contain one or more of the additional inscriptions "Jim Thorpe," "Wa-Tho-Huk," or "1888 to 1952." I would like to revisit reverse 12, which is a preference of the National Congress of the American Indian as well as the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs. Suggestions include placing the track and field silhouettes on the left with football and baseball silhouettes to better reflect his varied career. And reverse 15 is a preference of the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs because it highlights (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 55 Thorpe as an all-around athlete. The use of his name, birth, and death dates is especially liked as an educational component. And the committee did suggest that we add his gold medals around his neck to help contribute to the storytelling of Jim Thorpe. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Lots of possibilities here. Technical questions? MR. MORAN: Don, on number 10, how would you treat the Indian silhouette in terms of the frosting? Would it cause a problem or run together of the image versus the -- right there. Are there issues there? I mean, will you be able to get that, the Indian silhouette, sharply out? MR. EVERHART: I think so. I think we would frost the field where the negative space is around the silhouette. itself. And the relief would be the figure And then I think that it would not be a problem. It would contrast well. MS. KELLEY: I might also like to add that as you are looking into the feathers or coming out, there are some of those areas that we have looked at (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 56 that we would have to make sure that we would try to make those as crisp as we could. But I just wanted to point that out. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Robert, are you on the phone? you the last time. I ended with If it is all right with you, I wanted to be -MR. HOGE: Now I am. MS. LANNIN: Oh, yes. MS. STAFFORD: Sorry, Madam Chair. I would just like to reiterate I did note one of the designs as Jim Thorpe's sons' preferences. Just for the Committee's information since we did it for 2017 -MR. HOGE: Hello? MS. LANNIN: Yes. Just a moment, Robert. Okay. MS. STAFFORD: The stakeholder preferences included reverse 4, reverse 12, and reverse 15, but overall, Jim Thorpe's sons really liked reverse 4. Their main concern was that he is depicted as an allaround athlete, specifically that of an Olympian. so some of the designs that really focused on his (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 And Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 57 football career were less embraced. So I just wanted to make sure that we communicated that on their behalf. MS. LANNIN: Thank you very much. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. LANNIN: Excuse me? Just a moment, Robert. Yes, Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Are we to discuss all of these, I mean, the entire portfolio? MS. LANNIN: I think so because I had problems when I was looking at this because he was so rounded as an athlete. So I would like to discuss all of the designs if we can. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Robert, I would love to hear from you, please? MR. HOGE: Okay. I have a hard time trying to select one in particular of these. Most of them offer something of value that I think, you know, is worthy of being on a coin, really. Probably my favorite just as a kind of an impression, though, is number 11. I can't really explain quite why, but I (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 58 like seeing the old-time football uniform. And, you know, the letter "C" and the little figures of the different sports in the background I like, too. We also see them on 12 and 13. And that is it. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Robert. Tom, would you like to go next. MR. URAM: Sure. Thank you, Madam Chair. All the designs are really creative in one way or the other. 11, 12, and 15. However, I will focus on numbers 4, On number 12, if you do add those silhouettes, it certainly does give the Olympian preference there if we change the silhouettes on the left, like it was suggested. And I think that would make a nice design with the different background as far as the proof goes or the design and how it would strike as a medal. I also lean towards number 4. know why the barn is up there. I just don't I think I would rather just see it with just the image of the barn. I mean, I think it depicts nice movement, and that is bothering me. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 59 MS. STAFFORD: Just for clarification, that is his home. MR. URAM: Yes. Well, okay. Home. Sorry. See, so right there, I am looking at it as a barn, not a home. So that tells me why I don't like it. Go ahead, Jeanne. You were going to say something? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: That was -- MR. URAM: So, you know, if we Oh, okay. did choose number 4, it would be great if you did put the Olympian medals around the smaller version there. You could add that in as well. movement there. And you would have the So you could add in the Olympian medals, too, if you wanted to further demonstrate that and emphasize that achievement. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thanks, Tom. Heidi? MS. WASTWEET: Thank you. First of all, I would like to compliment the Mint and the artists on a very nice packet. hard to choose. It is There are some really good designs (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 60 here, a lot of creativity. for we are seeing here. Things we have been asking And so bravo. Thank you for that. I will start with design number 4. This design would be fine if we were doing a Congressional Gold Medal. This is not a Congressional Gold Medal. This is a dollar coin. shallow relief. Dollar coins are incredibly And to have all of this layering, especially to have a head on top of a chin of a large head, all the background layering, the face, the very tiny detail is just simply not appropriate for the pallet. It is a nice drawing. but not for a dollar coin. It is a nice design I advise against recommending this design. Design number 8 I think is a really welldrawn design. It has the feeling of being a coin, rather than a medal. And I like this very much. It does center on the football aspect, which we are advised didn't go over well. understand. And I certainly I want to compliment this as a nice design and a nice drawing. Design number 10 is by far my favorite. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 I Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 61 think this hits all of the points. are honoring this individual: It ties in why we because he comes from the rich cultural background of the Native Americans. And it is very, very clear here. design. It is a creative The outline or the silhouette, the head in the background, is very descriptive. It is a beautiful outline, just a simple line that tells so much, the use of texture and the negative space. I think this is a great design. I am not a fan of altering the designs. And I only do so sparingly when I feel it is really important. And there are a couple of things I think are really important here. I would put the medals around his neck, like we see in design number 9. would complete the story. That And it would represent the fact that he was a well-rounded athlete, rather than a football player. Then his name, "Jim Thorpe," it looks crowded in that space. And there is a lot of lettering around the edge. I would prefer to have his name replacing the word "Bright Path" and have that space where his name is now be a beautiful, opened (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 62 space, which would make this design feel clean. And it is very appropriate for a one-dollar coin. Design 12, I like the creativity here. gestures are good. The It does tell the story of his athleticism, that it does connect it to his heritage. And I think it falls just a bit shy on that aspect. Design 15. Thorpe. I went online, and I Googled Jim And I could easily see the reference that this image came from. And I think that it falls a little short as far as representing the full story. It lacks originality compared to the other choices we have. So we have much better choices in this packet. That completes my comments. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Heidi. Michael? MR. MORAN: It is always dangerous following Heidi, particularly if you are going to vote for an animal full-face one. (Laughter.) MR. MORAN: But, you know, I am teachable. I basically agree with everything she said on number 10. I just want to ask a technical question. It is (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 63 my choice as well. medals. I was going to suggest additional I like the fact that Jim Thorpe would be moved to the perimeter. MS. LANNIN: That is my choice, period. Thank you. Gary? MR. MARKS: I think I will start with some comments about designs I would not have us recommend. Then I will move to one that I am truly excited about. Going to number 4, Heidi already talked about the relief issue. of those images. pallet. this. I would add to this the size She had briefly mentioned the But also let's talk about the proof finish on Don, correct me if I am wrong, but I think what we are going to see is everything from about, oh, 40 percent down from the top, it is all going to be frost. MR. EVERHART: MR. MARKS: Correct, yes. What will happen there is those images will just kind of be lost in there. So I think it is a nice drawing, as Heidi said, more appropriate for a medal. We could go to number 12. There is some (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 64 support for this one. When I look at those little silhouettes, I am not sure what sports they represent. So I think the medals around the neck surely designate the Olympics, but, as far as I can tell, every one of those little images could be something to do with the Olympics. And where is baseball? Where is football? I don't see those images there. And, besides that, let's remember, folks, this is a dollar coin, only slightly bigger than a quarter. Those little images there are going to reduce down to little ants. And so to make out any sense of it is going to be very difficult. So while I have heard some support here for this one, I would really hope that we wouldn't go that direction. If we could go to number 10, this is the one that -- I think this one really pops. for modern designs. We have asked We have asked for new and different things that catch your attention. And this surely does it. I am particularly fond of the silhouette of Chief Black Hawk in the background. It drives home the Native American aspect of this. I do not want (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 65 this claim to get lost in athletics alone. And a lot of these designs in this collection, if you are not an educated person about who Jim Thorpe is, who happens to have a white man's name, that drives it home. And I think it is a tragic loss if we do not recommend this design and it is not produced. I think this is the homerun. If we were to recommend this design, I would like to come back and talk about the font around the perimeter. I think we have captured the font that I was talking about earlier in this name and in the denominational designation. So those are my comments, Madam Chair, and thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thanks, Gary. Donald? MR. SCARINCI: First of all, just to note, I just want to note that the U.S. Mint did do a medal for Jim Thorpe. It happens to be a rarity. It was produced in small size, one-and-a-half-inch, in gilt brass and brass. You know, for what it is worth, I paid $2,900 for my set. That is how rare it is. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 66 PARTICIPANT: MR. SCARINCI: Really? It is a series. So when you do this, you are probably going to want to do it paired with the silver. You know, a medal you should do in silver or you could do the three-inch version of the medal that you never did in three-inch. So you can have a lot of fun with the marketing on this. So you want to tell the marketing people this one if done right, this should be a smash. And the recipient organization, you know, will do well with this. That being said, you know, that is probably the most I have to say about this because the selection to me is crystal clear. And, you know, 10 makes you think. It is number 10. What I like about 10 is the silhouette or the shadow in the background. You know, it really is a reflection of who we are. It makes you think. You know, if we were doing a coin about me, you know, maybe you would have, you know, a silhouette of the apartment building in Union City that I, you know, grew up in. And, you know, it is who I am. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 And Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 67 this is who he is. I just love this. The artist who did it, you know, really deserves all the credit in the world and absolutely deserves to see this. is the coin. This You know, I really don't think -- you know, we can quibble about Jim Thorpe, and we can quibble about the lettering. And we can talk about putting gold medals on, but this is a coin design that makes you think. And this is a coin design that tells a story that is not a storyboard. emotion. And it conveys an It does all of the things we want a coin to do. So in my mind, I am giving this a 3. not giving anything else anything else. This is the coin. I am I am sorry. And if there is one coin for today, this is the coin. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Showing you are here, Donald. Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: That is it. Okay. I am done. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Jeanne? Thank you, Donald. You took the wind out of what I was going to say. I do agree with my colleagues. I loved the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 68 imagery in number 4, but, again, like Heidi said and the rest of our group, this is more for a medal. I would like to see it bigger. lot of information in there. And I mean, it just has a it is a wonderful drawing. I am drawn to number 12 with the little figures in the background fence. fence. I guess that is a It shows Jim Thorpe's athletic ability. However, again, this is more of a medal size with the information that is there. I also think, you know, these little figures are sort of like our celebration of the Marshall coin, the medallion that we did. That was such a positive and beautiful medal that this detail I think is important to bring to our Committee and let us see it. However, I think it will be too small. It will just be way too small, and we are going to lose what those images are. I mean, I can tell what they represent right now, but if we reduce it a little more, how much are we going to see after it has been frosted and struck? I think that Jim Thorpe himself will be kind of lost. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 69 So I am going to go with number 10. Number 10 was what struck me every time I opened my portfolios. This is so powerful. I don't think that we can include, unfortunately, the wish of our stakeholders to have all of his sports that we should be representing. And I don't think we should hang Olympic medals on his chest while he is wearing a football uniform. I don't think that is correct. this image of Black Hawk is so powerful. But And the image of Jim Thorpe that comes through, he is really inspiring. So this is where my tendencies are going. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Erik? MR. JANSEN: I am going to kind of direct comments two ways: one for feedback; and then, second of all, for selection. On the feedback side, I think several of these designs kind of have some anatomic issues. And so I would encourage the artists to make sure we are getting anatomy right, whether it is arms' length, shoulders, size of hands. enough for the body? Is the head big These are important issues. Nobody has raised them because I don't think they come (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 70 in the popular designing so far here for the most part. Second of all, I think there is a very big challenge here. And that is, really, do we want to highlight this Native American superstar as a football player because the visual picture does tell 1,000 words in this story or is the picture bigger than that? And, whereas, my recommendations are going to go a little bit against my words and I will tell you why later, I tended to demote the football imagery because I think the picture is bigger than a football player or the game of football. I love the diversity of these designs. have so many different ways to go here. We And I thank the artists for -- single artists put in multiple approaches or just the multitude of the artists gave us that diversity. really wonderful. I really like that. That is But within that diversity, I want to try to consolidate some comments that have been made by my Committee members here as feedback to the artists. Design number 4, with all respect to the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 71 preferences, this is a picture in metal. I think a lot of people have paid respects to this as a wonderful piece of artwork. It is not a coin design that this Committee I think is going to go forward with: too much detail, small pallet. Honestly, I looked at this design, and I thought it might have actually worked if you would eliminate the field and the home and just make his face there and move some things around. It might have been an interesting design, still a picture in metal, but it might have survived the scrutiny. So that is a vote against 4. The point here, though, I want to make is the popularity, the common theme of the designs that have been highlighted here I think is a combination of visual balance; symbolic backdrops; or messaging; and, to a lesser extent, the portrait of a person. number 10 carries that exact theme forward. Design It is a real tug-of-war and not in an antagonistic sense, almost in a "This is good. good. That is good. This is That is good" between the image of the Jim Thorpe profile versus this backdrop that is just incredibly large, graphic, clear, contrasting, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 72 symbolic message. If you were to take and extent my symbolic message to -- 11, 12, and 13 have this beautiful visual balance of this horizontal stripe, which gives the sculpture the flexibility of texture against the traditional relief of the profile of Jim Thorpe himself. designs, I think. Those are really visually appealing with the image. Again, it is the symbol balanced And, although it hasn't been mentioned, design 7 has that same kind of symbol image balance. And so the feedback to the artist would be if you want to do an image, God bless you. symbol as well or probably risk demotion. Give us a This Committee appreciates negative space, visual balance, inclusion of symbols to get the bigger message across in balance with imagery. Trying to be effective here in terms of a selection, I gravitate to 10 as well. I wish it wasn't just football, but I think doctoring this coin by saying, "Turn it into an Olympian" or "Put medals around his neck" or something else is probably an exercise in reduction of the net impact of the coin. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 73 This would be an absolutely gorgeous proof version. think it is simple. I It works to the pallet size. I like design number 12. I think the head is a little small to the body, quite frankly. And I do respect some of my other Committee members who don't feel or recognize that the athletic images in the background horizontal bar would stand out. I appreciate those comments. Finally, I am not sure I could pick Jim Thorpe out of a lineup based on the varying profiles here. We have got so many different facial expressions here and faces. I don't which one of these profiles' faces is anatomically correct because you take 15. Compare it just to 14 next to it. that the same guy aged? guy. Is It is surely not the same So I would say a little help in the anatomical correctness. My vote, all in, goes for 10. a bingo design. It has incredible visual intensity. It works from the pallet size. I said. I think it is And I think it is what It is a combination of the image and powerful symbology and the use of negative space. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 74 MR. MORAN: Mary, could I make one quick comment? MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Sure. That horizontal striped fence has been described as several things. It is actually a football field. PARTICIPANT: MR. MORAN: I missed it. You were at the Seattle game, weren't you? MS. LANNIN: said about number 10. I am going to echo what Erik I just love that design. And I think the thing that I like about it is the slight lift in the chin for pride. MR. JANSEN: Absolutely. MS. LANNIN: You know, you just -- PARTICIPANT: MS. LANNIN: Bingo. Excellent. "I won, and it just doesn't make any difference." MR. JANSEN: Yes. And the chin lift is present in both the symbol and the image. MS. LANNIN: Exactly. MR. JANSEN: It is just such an (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 75 amplification of things. MS. LANNIN: Exactly. And I think it was Heidi that thought it might be good to Jim Thorpe's name replace where "Bright Path" goes. So we can make a motion after that, but, by far and away, my absolute favorite was number 10. So we are going to turn in the votes, take a 10-minute recess. And then Tom is going to announce the winners of both. (Off The Record) MS. LANNIN: Okay. I would like to ask Tom Uram to give us the results of our votes, please. MR. URAM: Thank you, Madam Chair. For the reverse designs, we considered number one, two, five, nine -MALE SPEAKER: FEMALE SPEAKER: Which program? If you can just read us the -MR. URAM: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Pardon. Yes. Right. We considered 1, 2, 5, 9, 10, 11 and 12. Out of a possible 27 points, number 1 had 4; number 2, 19; number 3, 1; number 5, 11; and number 11, 12 on the score. So the choice is number two. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 76 FEMALE SPEAKER: Number two. So this -- oh, I'm sorry. MS. LANNIN: Do we have any motions to change this at all? MR. MARKS: Yes. MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Yes, Gary. Okay. For reference, I'm going to refer us to the Jim Thorpe collection. If we go to design number one, I'm pointing to this font. MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Okay. Okay. But it's the font that I want to address. MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Okay. The font that I referred to earlier that was prevalent, used from '09 through 2012 is the font you see before United States of America. So I would make a motion -- I don't know what that font's called. MR. EVERHART: It's Lithos. It's called Lithos. MR. MARKS: What is it? MR. EVERHART: Lithos. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 77 FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. MARKS: Lithos. Lithos. Okay. Then I would move that the Lithos font be substituted for the recommended design for Sequoyah. MS. LANNIN: Is there a second? MR. JANSEN: Second. MS. LANNIN: Fair enough. Okay. All in favor of Gary's motion to replace the font with Lithos, raise your hands. MS. SOLLMAN: MS. LANNIN: I have a question. MS. SOLLMAN: Oh. I'm sorry, Jeanne. MS. LANNIN: I have a -- yeah. MS. SOLLMAN: More discussion. Sorry. answer this question for me. Okay. Don, maybe you can United States of America, is that Roman Times? Is that what we're still looking at, Roman Time font? MR. EVERHART: I don't know. many of those faces that look alike. one of those. There's so It could be any But it's an italic face. MS. SOLLMAN: MR. EVERHART: Okay. Okay. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 78 MS. SOLLMAN: So the question is if we go to the Lithos fonts -- font, will that be the same as we have for the Sequoyah? Is that the same font? I mean, I like the fact that with this particular coin, we have a difference in the fonts and if we go -- if we make -- if we go through that motion, then that font is going to be the same all the way around so my -- I don't -- I think we have to consider how we make this motion that by doing that we don't allow a change in the fonts that maybe would be more -- make the coin more interesting. MR. MARKS: Jeanne, can I help you? MS. SOLLMAN: MR. MARKS: Yeah. Please. Thank you. I'll make my motion to change United States of America to the Lithos font. MS. SOLLMAN: But the Lithos font is so similar to the lower -MR. MARKS: MS. SOLLMAN: Oh, I would beg to differ. You think it's just different? MR. MARKS: I think it's much different. MS. SOLLMAN: MS. LANNIN: No. Okay. Can we go back to number one (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 79 again to see the Lithos font? MALE SPEAKER: Okay. I've got it -- if you want to see the red book, I'd be happy to show -MR. EVERHART: There's also a thin and a thick bold version of Lithos, too. I would recommend on number one on Sequoyah to go with the bold to contrast with what's down below because that's kind of a thin face. MS. LANNIN: Right. MR. SCARINCI: Are we discussing the motion for -MS. LANNIN: (Inaudible) MR. SCARINCI: oops. How about instead of us -- How about instead of us picking a font, I think if there's a desire to change the font, why don't we just authorize the artist to pick a more, you know, pick us a font and not us pick the different font? MR. JANSEN: MR. MARKS: I would agree with Donald. Is there a second on my motion? MR. JANSEN: I think I seconded your motion. MS. LANNIN: Erik did so. MR. JANSEN: But I think Donald's point (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 80 about pontificating here is probably a good point. MR. MARKS: Let me speak to Donald's font. The reason for my motion was to try to regain the connectivity from year to year of the series. And that font was for the first four years part of that connectivity, if you will, and I'm trying to pick that back up. So what Don's suggesting, I understand what he wants to do, but it really doesn't accomplish the reason for my motion. I wanted that connectivity. MS. LANNIN: So right now we have Gary's motion which Erik seconded. All in favor of Gary's motion, raise your -MS. WASTSWEET: MS. LANNIN: Heidi. I have one more comment. I'm sorry. I didn't see you, Okay. MS. WASTSWEET: Even though there's a difference between the Lithos font and the font of the lower levels, they're in the same family of fonts, and so there's a little bit of a clash. When using two fonts within the same design, they should be from two different families so that there's contrast rather than clashing of the two fonts. So it might actually (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 81 be better, even though I like that littler font, to keep with the continuity of the series and to have a harmony of fonts, it might be better to have the same font all the way around. MS. LANNIN: Now we look puzzled. MR. SCARINCI: No, no. I'm not puzzled. I just will make a different motion if this one does not succeed. MR. MARKS: I'll stand with my motion as -- MR. JANSEN: I'll stand with the second. MS. STAFFORD: apologize. Madam, I'm sorry. I I don't know if it's appropriate at this time to reiterate it was this reverse that there was a strong suggestion from stakeholders to change the inscription "Cherokee Syllabary" to "Cherokee Nation" written in Cherokee. So I just want to make sure in case you came back to that consideration that you were taking that into consideration as you were considering this motion. MS. LANNIN: So that Sequoyah remains in that font, and Cherokee Syllabary is written in Cherokee? (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 82 MS. WASTSWEET: That is a suggestion which at some point I would ask that the committee take comment upon. MR. MARKS: Yeah. That's not my motion. That could be picked up after this but -MS. LANNIN: motion. We need to vote on Gary's So would you like to restate it once more for the record since we've (inaudible)? MR. MARKS: The motion is to use the -- now I've forgotten the name of your -MS. LANNIN: Lithos. MALE SPEAKER: MR. MARKS: Lithos. Lithos font for United States of America for purposes of regaining the continuity of the series established from 2009 to 2012. MS. LANNIN: And Erik is the second. So we vote on this motion. hands. One, two -- Bob? MR. KANEHERS: Okay. All in favor raise your Is Robert here? MS. LANNIN: Bob Kanehers. MR. KANEHERS: Robert Kanehers. Or send me an email if need be. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 83 MS. LANNIN: So right now we have six ayes. So it appears even without hearing from Robert that the motion passes. Are there any other motions, especially in light of what the request was replacing? MR. URAM: I would make a motion that we take that under consideration and put that on. I think it would be a nice addition. MS. LANNIN: Okay. I -- MR. JANSEN: Think what would be a nice addition? MR. URAM: The changing of the Cherokee Syllabary to Nation and written in that form, written in -MS. LANNIN: I'm -- MR. JANSEN: I would speak against that. I think it destroys the understandability of the image. MS. LANNIN: I agree with Erik because none of the rest of us understand what the Cherokee Syllabary is. How are we going to know what it says? It needs to say -- if we have anything in Cherokee, it needs to be next to something that we can understand. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 84 So I understand -MALE SPEAKER: MS. LANNIN: Yeah. -- what they want, but I think it's a little -MR. JANSEN: In all honesty, I'm not sure -- I cannot even say it very well -- Syllabary is a common usage, you know, common usage term. If I were to alter this I might -- but I'm not going to make that motion because I think it's part of the statute. MS. LANNIN: So is anybody going to second the motion that Tom made? MR. URAM: I'll withdraw the motion. MS. LANNIN: Tom withdraws the motion. Do we have any questions? MR. MORAN: Let me throw one more comment in, Mary. MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Certainly. Along the lines of my plea for number five which was really driven by the sevenpointed star, I don't see really as I look here a place to put the seven-pointed star, although if I were messing with the inscriptions I might be able to (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 85 find one. Cherokee Syllabary, I think we're missing an opportunity for the Cherokee Nation whether it's in English or in their language. And you know, it's just a preference as opposed to the Syllabary motion. MS. LANNIN: Are you going to make a motion on that? MR. MORAN: No, I'm not. I'd like to have some support from the committee so I don't drag this out if it's a vote of one. MS. STAFFORD: I appreciate your comments. I was just about to ask the same because the suggestion at the root of it was that Cherokee Nation be represented. They happened to ask for it to be in Cherokee but it was important that Cherokee Nation -that was a suggestion. MR. JANSEN: MR. MORAN: I'd support that. I would make a motion -- MALE SPEAKER: MR. MORAN: Yeah. I support that. I'll make a motion to change it to Cherokee Nation. MS. LANNIN: MALE SPEAKER: Okay. Who wants to second? But not in that language. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 86 MR. JANSEN: I'll second. MS. LANNIN: But not in -- MR. MORAN: Yeah. Not -- MS. LANNIN: -- Cherokee script. MR. JANSEN: In Arabic. MS. LANNIN: In Arabic script. MR. JANSEN: Replace the Syllabary with MS. LANNIN: All right. Nation. MR. MORAN: That's my motion. MS. LANNIN: Is there any other discussion on that? (No audible response) MS. LANNIN: your hands. All in favor say aye, raise Is Robert available? Let me see, one, two, three, four. FEMALE SPEAKER: MALE SPEAKER: MR. WEINMAN: hear us? Can you vote? I'll abstain. Robert's the swing. Robert, are you -- can you We can't hear you, so maybe you should send me an email. MS. LANNIN: Because right now the motion is (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 87 in danger of not passing. MR. MARKS: Can we put that in stasis for a moment, recommend something else? MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: seven-pointed star. Sure. I have a suggestion about the Instead of the little dot between Sequoyah and Cherokee, can we make that a sevenpointed star? FEMALE SPEAKER: MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Very good. That's good. Is there a motion? I'll make a motion that the dot between Sequoyah and Cherokee be changed to a sevenpointed star. FEMALE SPEAKER: MS. LANNIN: I second that. Who would like to second? FEMALE SPEAKER: MS. LANNIN: Second -- MALE SPEAKER: Mike would. All in favor? We have a comment. MS. LANNIN: Comment, yes. MS. KELLEY: I would just like to comment that looking at the size of that dot versus that seven-point star, we may not be able to see that (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 88 detail. I just want to make sure that we point that out, especially that size. MALE SPEAKER: Well, let me -- FEMALE SPEAKER: MALE SPEAKER: Pick a different size. -- let me discuss that for a moment. MS. KELLEY: So yeah. We would have to make it big -MALE SPEAKER: People like me who have loops, and this is a big deal, we'll know because it will be there because I know you guys have the precision to make that pop -FEMALE SPEAKER: MALE SPEAKER: Yes. -- in a very small fashion. I think the importance remains. FEMALE SPEAKER: larger. I think you could make that That would be my question. If we could make it larger -MS. SOLLMAN: If you could make the same size as the lettering so that the -FEMALE SPEAKER: MS. SOLLMAN: Yes. -- and that would make sense (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 89 that -FEMALE SPEAKER: MS. SOLLMAN: Yes. MS. KELLEY: I think that would be okay. I just wanted to make sure that we put that out there so everyone would understand that. We would need to make it larger in order for it to pop. FEMALE SPEAKER: And I think that would be appropriate. MR. WEINMAN: information. Madam Chair, just a point of I did hear from Mr. Hoge who votes yes, so the previous motion carries. MR. SCARINCI: this as well. I just want to comment on I always either vote no or abstain to these design by committee motions. I'm going to vote in favor of this one because, you know, as miniscule -- and it should be miniscule. I mean, I think we're not looking to make this any bigger than it is. But you know, the little tiny, tiny, as miniscule as it is adds a dimension to the coin that makes it a little more numismatically interesting, probably gets it, you know, written about and (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 90 discussed and certainly the topic of innumerable future coin club meetings, you know, for the next God knows how long. So you know, as a numismatist, I'm going to vote in favor of this little design by committee thing, since it doesn't really impact negatively in any way on what the original artist conceived which is kind of why I philosophically never vote for these types of things. MS. LANNIN: So Gary's motion, seconded by Erik, we're going to replace the dot with the sevenpointed -FEMALE SPEAKER: MALE SPEAKER: Star. I think it's seconded by Mike, Mary. MS. LANNIN: Michael. I'm sorry. Seconded by All in favor? Unanimous. Great job, Gary. And now we will -MALE SPEAKER: MS. LANNIN: Wait. Any other motions? MALE SPEAKER: I'm sorry? Any motions? (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 91 MS. LANNIN: Are there any other motions, or are we done with this one? (No audible response) MS. LANNIN: Okay. The next one we have Jim Thorpe. MR. URAM: Thank you, Madam Chairman. We considered all 15 designs, and the following are the results. Number one has two votes; two has one; three has one; four has three; five and six have zero; seven has two; eight has three; nine has zero. The preference of the committee is number 10 at 25 votes. Number 11 has 5; number 12 is 6; 13 is 2; 14, 1; 15, 1; and that was out of a possible 27 total votes again with number 10 receiving 25. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Gary? In the spirit of my first motion on the last coin, I move that the text on the perimeter of our recommended design, number 10, be changed to the Lithos font. MS. LANNIN: MALE SPEAKER: Is there a second? Second. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 92 MS. LANNIN: All in favor? MR. JANSEN: I'd like discussion. MS. LANNIN: Is there any discussion on MR. JANSEN: I would -- go ahead. that? MS. WASTSWEET: If we change that font does that -- because those letters are in there so carefully, will that font change the spacing and cause a problem to fit that lettering in there? MR. EVERHART: Well, we'd have to finagle it a little bit but -MS. WASTSWEET: MR. EVERHART: MR. MARKS: Is it finagle-able? Finagle-able. Is that a term of art, finagle? MR. EVERHART: But we do have space down to the left of the $1 sign that we can move out. move out lots of… We can If we have to move it closer to that, we can work that. MS. WASTSWEET: MR. JANSEN: Okay. Thank you. If we go with those motion, then we really put our stake and reestablish this form of connectivity for the series. We missed it for two (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 93 years, but we picked it back up for the -- for two more. And I would hope after I'm gone that you would continue that tradition. But I think this gets us back to where maybe we want to be, so we'll see how the motion goes. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Any more discussion? (No audible response) MS. LANNIN: All in favor of Gary's motion? Motion passes. MALE SPEAKER: I would just like to I think state the obvious, but I'm hoping in finagling the font that we don't affront the profile as it exists kind of between the 12 and 1 or 2 o'clock parts of the coin. That needs to remain unviolated negative space. MS. LANNIN: Heidi? MS. WASTSWEET: I would like to make a motion to move Jim Thorpe's name to replace Bright Path along the border. MALE SPEAKER: Second. MS. LANNIN: Any discussion? Erik. MR. JANSEN: I think the text, if only as an object of visual balance, the text Jim Thorpe, if you (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 94 strike that out, I think it's going to mess a little bit with the visual balance of the design. MS. WASTSWEET: MR. JANSEN: How so? I think it would imbalance it. MS. WASTSWEET: MR. JANSEN: As within that space? Yeah. I think just an empty space there, perhaps it's an echo in my mind of its presence. But it's feeling -MR. EVERHART: MR. JANSEN: I have a solution. -- I don't want to pontificate here. MR. EVERHART: I have a solution. MS. WASTSWEET: Don’t be afraid of the(Inaudible) white space. MR. JANSEN: white space. Yeah. I'm liking this. MR. EVERHART: Don't be afraid of the That's so quotable. MR. JANSEN: Erik, Erik. MR. EVERHART: I rest my white space. MR. JANSEN: I have a solution to that. MR. EVERHART: Okay. I'd say we upsize the figure of Jim Thorpe by 10 percent. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 95 MR. JANSEN: Yeah, yeah. Well, what I was horrifically about to say was boy, if you move the image of Jim Thorpe to the northwest about three or four percent, it would nix the problem. You just nailed it. MR. EVERHART: MR. JANSEN: Minor problem. Yeah. MS. WASTSWEET: Okay. Thank you. That's a good solution. Everybody's happy. MR. JANSEN: Fear not the white space. MS. LANNIN: So to restate -- I'm going to restate Heidi's motion to remove Jim Thorpe's name, replace Bright Path with Jim Thorpe's name, and take Don's suggestion of enlarging the figure of Jim Thorpe by about 10 percent or whatever the mint feels is best to balance the coin. Is there any discussion? MS. SOLLMAN: MS. LANNIN: MS. SOLLMAN: Yes. Very good. Yes, Jeanne. Just one question. If we take Bright Path out of the picture altogether, do we then diminutize his abilities in all these other sports because Bright Path, Lightning, whatever was such a (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 96 powerful concept that -- does that seem to exclude his other abilities or not? MS. WASTSWEET: I think that the story carries on beyond the surface of the coin. We don't have to put everything on -MS. SOLLMAN: Right. It was just the name. I'm wondering if we can -MS. STAFFORD: MS. WASTSWEET: It's actually -We've got enough information on there. MS. STAFFORD: -- Bright Path is actually a reference to Wa-tho-huk which was his Indian name, his given name. MS. SOLLMAN: Okay. So it's actually translation. MS. STAFFORD: MS. SOLLMAN: So it's a translation, yes. MS. WASTSWEET: So we can just -Path Lit by Lightning was -- is the full name. MS. SOLLMAN: MS. WASTSWEET: The full name. version. Bright Path is the shortened But Wa-tho-huk, if it's represented there, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 97 is his Indian name. MS. LANNIN: As I understand it, when I was doing some research on it that that's a birth name. It refers to an event that happened around the time of his birth. MS. SOLLMAN: Okay. FEMALE SPEAKER: MS. LANNIN: So not with his sports. Correct. MS. SOLLMAN: Not his sports. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thank you. So is there any other discussion on all of these -MR. SCARINCI: Just one point. think we're overdoing it? Don't you Like we're designing -- we're -- aren't we redesigning this coin by committee, or do you think this is the right thing to do? MS. LANNIN: I think we're fine doing it. I think it's a great design, and we're just making it work, fit better. And we're not pontificating, Erik. Is there any other discussion on this? (No audible response) MS. LANNIN: Okay. So I'm going to call the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 98 question, and we -- all in favor? Motion carries. Any other motions? Anything else you want to do to this coin? FEMALE SPEAKER: No. Spend it. (Asides) MS. LANNIN: Okay. We're going to recess for lunch until 1:30. (Whereupon, a luncheon recess was taken at 12:36 p.m.) MS. LANNIN: Ladies and gentlemen, our lunch recess is over and we are back in session. We want to discuss the congressional gold medal for the Pueblo of Laguna and the St. Regis Mohawk tribes. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you, Madam Chair. It is Public Law 110-420 that authorizes the Secretary of the Treasury to strike congressional medals to recognize the dedication and valor of Native American Code Talkers to the United States Armed Services during World War I and World War II. Unique gold medals will be struck for each Native American Tribe that had a member who served as a code talker. Silver duplicate medals will be presented to the specific (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 99 code talkers or the next of kin. Bronze duplicates will be struck and made available for sale to the public. While there are no required inscriptions, their design consistency, the obverse designs including the tribe's name, code talkers, and the desired language unique to the tribe. Reverse inscriptions include World War I and/or World War II as applicable to the war served and Act of Congress, 2008. First, we will review ten uppers and seven reverse designs for the Pueblo of Laguna tribe of Laguna, New Mexico. This is the 30th design completed out of the 33 verified in the program. We're fortunate to have on the phone with us Mary Scott, Benefits Services Manager, who is also our Pueblo of Laguna liaison. Ms. Scott, are you there? And if so, would you like to say a few words to our committee? MS. SCOTT: Hello. MS. STAFFORD: MS. SCOTT: Hello. Okay. We can hear you now. I'm from the Pueblo of Laguna here in New Mexico, and I have with me the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 100 family of Mr. Day. I have Joseph Day, Jr., and Denise Garcia, who is the granddaughter. to get this going. And we're anxious I have one question. The information that I had sent you earlier regarding the first and the reverse side, we're confused here. And they have -- they indicated differences than what they want. So, I'm wondering if they can make changes. MS. STAFFORD: If you -- we'll go through the designs, and certainly, if your preferences have changed, we'll certainly be more than happy to discuss that here. As of right now, we have your preferences listed as obverse 3 and reverse 4A. But again, as we go through the portfolio, if you'd like to comment on any other designs you also like or a preference that you have if it's changes, we'd be happy to hear that. MS. SCOTT: Okay. MS. STAFFORD: I'll go ahead and go through the designs (inaudible) the Code Talkers Recognition Congressional Medal Program. First, the obverses. We have obverse 1, 2, 2A, 3, 4, 4A, 5, 6, 6A, and 7 that depict a World War II code talker and symbols representing the clan these code talkers were members (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 101 of, specifically, the Big Turkey clan, and the Little Corn clan. Designs 4 and 5 include an eagle or the eagle feather. Inscriptions are Pueblo of Laguna code talkers, with Laguna code talkers, Big Turkey, and Little Corn in tribal language. designs. So, those will be the Here we have obverse 1, 2, 2A, 3, 4, 4A, 5, 6, 6A, and 7. And moving on to the reverses. Reverses 1, 2, 3, 4, 4A, 5, and 6 depict variations of the Pueblo of Laguna tribe seal, which features the dancing eagle. The inscriptions are Pueblo of Laguna, WWII, 43rd Bombardment Group, Act of Congress 2008, Big Turkey and Little Corn in the tribe's language. So, again, initially we had the tribe's preference as obverse 3 and reverse 4A. Are there other designs you'd like to bring our attention to? MS. SCOTT: it's POLCRN-R-048. Okay, yes. So, for the reverse And I think that's what we already sent to you, right? MS. STAFFORD: MS. SCOTT: That's correct. And then the obverse design is POL-CRN-0-03. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 102 MS. STAFFORD: have. Okay. That is also what you Thank you so much. MS. SCOTT: Okay, that's it. Okay, good. We just needed it clarified. MS. STAFFORD: Okay, perfect. Thank you. All right, Madam Chair, I'll turn it back to the committee. MS. LANNIN: First of all, do we have any technical limitations in pulling off any of these designs? phone? (Inaudible). Or Steve, if you're on the Okay. So, why don't we begin with, do we have any questions from the committee? MS. SOLLMAN: on the imagery. This is a -- just a question Is the dancing eagle that we have in all of the designs except No. 6, is this all on the seal, this specific iconic eagle? Is that the seal itself? MS. STAFFORD: You mean the seal of the 43rd Bombardment Group? MS. SOLLMAN: No, I mean the seal of the -- the tribal seal. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 103 MS. STAFFORD: So, you'll see that in 3, 4, and 6 are artists' renditions of that. MS. SOLLMAN: Okay. And the little imagery at the bottom of 4, 4A, and 5, is that part of the tribal seal? MS. STAFFORD: That's the symbol for the 43rd Bombardment Group. MS. SOLLMAN: MS. LANNIN: Okay, thank you. Any other questions? All right, Erik, would you like to start? MR. JANSEN: I was actually pleased with really the selection here is really tremendous. think the -- I personally like design No. 4. I I like the way the feather and the corn are all balanced out in there. I think it's a beautiful feature of the symbols of the tribe. as well. However, design 3 works for me I'd probably like 6A over 6, just for the balance of the perspective. Design 5, I'm not really fond of the way the gun is featured so aggressively. Yes, these were soldiers, but I think the focus here is the communications and not the firepower. would be my preference on the obverse. So, that It would (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 104 probably be either 3 or 4. On the reverse, kudos to the artist who gave us 6. Truly. I actually am going to give 6 a considerable amount of weight here, because I think it will make an elegant medal out of something that -okay, a number of these code talker medals have been formulaic and it's refreshing to have the opportunity to put a functional, if not symbolically appropriate piece of artwork on the medal. At the same time, I want to respect the preference of the group here, and I personally would favor 4A over the similar group of 4 and 5. And in addition, my other preference would probably be maybe towards 3. I like the simplicity of it. So, that's where I come out on this one. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Erik. Jeanne, would you like to speak? MS. SOLLMAN: I think that we have to really commend the artists for -- this is a particularly artistic portfolio. turkeys. It's not just because I love the I agree with our liaison with No. 3. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 I'm Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 105 wanting to know, if we chose that one, how would this -- the images in the background, how would they be handled? UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: There would be very little relief. MS. SOLLMAN: Very little relief. Would they be crossing in low relief or would we lose them? Would we lose that imagery? UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: No, I don't think so. I think, you know, we could do them around -- say, around 60-80 thousandths and then do -- figure around two to three, something like that. MS. SOLLMAN: Thank you. With that information, if I can move on, I think that that one has my preference. I also like the fact that we have, you know, titles of the clans on there as well as the imagery. On the reverse, I also agree with Erik. think No. 6 was absolutely phenomenal. I And if we matched that with No. obverse 3, we'd have a spectacular medal. But I also understand, you know, that we have the logos of both the tribe and a (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 106 bombardment group. So, understandably, No. 4A would be a choice, however. My vote kind of goes with 06 for the creativity that we have. The only question that I have on that is the boot -- if this were truly a dancer, would the boot be appropriate or would he be wearing moccasins, if he were dancing? UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: The dress is appropriate as to painting. MS. SOLLMAN: With the boot. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: MS. LANNIN: Uh-huh. MR. EVERHART: Don. I think the host committee -- if the recipient is settled on 4A, you know, I really like obverse 3. reverse 4A. So, I mean, I feel I could live with Six is nice, but it's not consistent, really, with the rest of the medals in the series. I like 1 a lot, but I could see, you know, I could see the recipient needing that (inaudible). So, since this series is what it is, I'm not going to belabor it or agonize over it. But the reverse, 4A, is fine if the recipient's happy with that. I do think -- I do agree with Jeanne that obverse 3 is a no-brainer. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 I Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 107 think it would be gorgeous on -- probably one of the best ones in the series, actually. MS. LANNIN: MR. SCARING: Thank you, Don. Thank you, Madam Chair. I will address first the recipients' preference for No. 3. Actually, I have great concern about No. 3. My concern is that, first of all, there's not much negative space on this medal, which I think is going to create a -- on the actual medal, it's going to look different than what the drawing is. On the medal, it's going to look like the -- the drawing, (inaudible), too, there's a lot on there. I know it's -- some of the items are going to be a low relief, but at the end of the day, when you receive the medal, it's going to look kind of jumbled. So, I fear that that medal, I know it has the images that perhaps this recipient wants, but I would caution them against their expectation of what will come of that in medal form. I think a much better -- I mean, we could pick a number of these that are here rather than No. 3. feel that strongly about it. I think No. 3 is the wrong move. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 I Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 108 Just for an example, one of the ones I think is really clean and would execute well, 6A. bring that one up, please. here. We could There's some good balance There's negative space. It's a clear image, and produced in a medal, I think it would really pop. So, we'll see where we go with the recommendation on that one. But as far as the reverse, I think Don is right. A lot of the tribes and nations have gone with their logos and such, and it looks like this might be the same case with 4A. However, from an artistic point of view, extra kudos go to the artist who drew No. 6. I think that's a fabulous design. Although it's not picked in this instance, I would really hope that this kind of work would continue to come to the committee. This is what we've been asking for and I just think it's fabulous. So, with that, Madam Chair, I've done and I'll pass my -MS. LANNIN: I think that you liked No. 6, because it reminds you of the swirling skirts that was in the -- (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 109 MR. SCARINCI: Well, my guess is it's the same artist, but I don't know that. MS. LANNIN: Michael. We'll never know. MR. MORAN: Are you there? Yes, I'm here. I'm troubled, because I have always felt like, when it came to the code talkers that what the tribe wants, the tribe should get. So, here I go, off the cliff. about the obverses first. Let's talk I think that in spite of the fact that thematically we had good designs here, we're -- we've strayed a little bit on execution. I'll talk about, first, the weapon. When I went back and questioned what weapon these (inaudible) normally carried, it was a carbine, which is not an M-1, which is there in 6 and 6A, and is not the submachine gun in 5. It's a carbine, which the others are correct on. The other thing that troubles me with 6 and 6A is that there's no strap. You can see it there. They always had a strap for their weapons. The other thing I'm troubled with is turkeys. Let's talk turkey. please, Megan? Number one, people That's a turkey, guys. It's there. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 110 It's got a beard. It's a turkey. but I couldn't kill them. kill a turkey. It's what I hunted, I've never been able to Which says my IQ is terrible. then, let's go to No. 3. Now, That's not a turkey, guys. It's got to be reworked when it comes into the Mint. It's a Swift Butterball. (Laughter.) At best. not. It's a turkey in strut, but it's I've seen them in strut. And that's -- we've got a problem with that with the turkey. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: It's a turkey. Have you stood beside one of these that do that? MR. MORAN: Yeah, it's just -- UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: It doesn't really even look like that. MR. MORAN: It’s the beard and some of that other stuff that it just -- it needs help. I know they puff out when they strut. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: It's missing its snoot, that's all. MR. MORAN: Okay, it needs some help. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: It's missing that, but (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 111 otherwise, I think that's correct. MR. MORAN: That's an awfully big beard. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: It is a very big everything. MR. MORAN: Nine inches. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: MR. MORAN: Nine inches. And the other thing, let's talk about in terms of this one, is the carbine. It looks foreshortened to me because of the angle that it's sitting. MS. STAFFORD: Mr. Moran, I should interject, because I actually neglected to say this before I introduced the designs. As you know, we have an ongoing relationship with the Department of Defense, who reviews all of these for historical and military accuracy with regards to uniforms and equipment. This portfolio is still with them. The had some other projects and so we absolutely will receive that and incorporate all of their changes. So, with that, I thank you for -MR. MORAN: Well, the issue I've got here is it just -- it's looks foreshortened as a carbine. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 The Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 112 perspective having it at an angle coming at you makes it appear that way. And I think that's a flaw that, at least my eye goes to right away. So, so much for that one. My -- if I were left to my druthers and I still hadn't decided yet, I would be looking at 4, because I think it's an elegant medal. It's representative. It's simple. We don't have to get into whether a turkey really looks like that or not. Okay. And the carbine there is fine. Reverses. I, too, like No. 6. of the client is No. 4A. to do on that. The choice I don't know what I'm going I guess it's probably going to be 4A. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Mike. Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you. I'd like to take this opportunity to talk about symbolism. We talk a lot about symbolism on this committee, and we've seen it done right and we've seen it done wrong. And this pack, I think, is a good illustration of symbolism going right and wrong. The Big Turkey and the Little Corn are the names of the tribes. So, in representing (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 113 them symbolically, artists have used a turkey and some corn. symbol? And what makes a turkey a turkey versus a It has to be separated in the image somehow to show us that it's a symbol, not an image representing a turkey. We look at obverse design No. 1, this is not a symbolic turkey representing a tribe. symbolic corn. It's not This is a turkey, and it looks like it's walking behind a soldier. And I question why the soldier is sitting next to a turkey in a cornfield. That artistically, the symbolism is not functioning. And that is the danger in a lot of these designs is we have literal turkeys instead of symbolic turkeys representing what they're supposed to represent, which is the tribe that has that name. If we look at design No. 2, the way this -and the corn is a symbol. or a literal corn. It's not a literal turkey The problem I have with this, even though it functions as a symbol, but as a coin, if we look at that turkey in No. 2, the position of the turkey is such that I don't feel it's going to translate well in a bas-relief medium. There are so (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 114 many different angles that you can represent this turkey that would be artistically appealing in the medium of bas-relief. As a photograph of a turkey in this position, he's quite spectacular. is another thing. And a drawing Bas-relief is yet another thing. And I feel like this position of a turkey does not translate well, so this whole design, for me, falls apart. Design No. 2, I think is a much better choice because it is clean of those problems with the symbols and it has a very nice pattern around the border. It looks a lot like what we've seen before, but it's a solid design. Design No. 3, which is the preference and asks approval here, I like the concept, but we have a low relief in the background and a high relief image. This design relies heavily on the execution of Bas Sculpt. But where this falls apart is again, the position of the turkey. The tail is run over the top with letters and the gun and the soldier so that part of the turkey that fans out is hidden and the head looks a little cartoonish. And then, that breast is a (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 115 very peculiar-looking shape when you consider this as a whole in bas-relief. If this turkey were simply in a different position, I'd probably get behind this. But I can't endorse this design. Design No. 4, here again, we have symbols that work as symbols. those tribes. They're clearly symbols of It works. And design No. 5, here again, we have literal images. He looks like he's in a cornfield with a turkey that's been shot down out of the sky. It's very dangerous to cut things off at the edges like this. Please be aware of this. And design No. 6, we have a peculiar placement. Again, our symbology's not working. I do want to point to the fact there's a turkey behind him and because of the position of his body, remember I've said this before, gesture's very important. The gesturing of his body, the way he's facing, the position of the turkey, it looks to me like he's calling somebody about the turkey. behind me. "There's a turkey Come get this turkey." In design 7, the turkey's moved to the other (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 116 side. You don't have that problem. Now, they look a little more separated and it works a little better, but it still, to me, is a little too literal. But if you look at the positon of the turkey here, the -sorry, Jeanne, what did you call that thing on his beak? MS. SOLLMAN: Snoot. MS. WASTWEET: The snoot is there. a very nice drawing of a turkey. This is This would have worked well in the other designs. So, in consideration of these symbols versus literal images, I have to then cancel out those that I mentioned are not working as symbols and go for the more simplistic images in 2A and 4. On the reverse, I'm on board with what has already been said, so I would pass the microphone on. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Tom. Thank you, Madam Chair. going to work this a little backwards. go to the reverse first. I'm I'm going to think is outstanding also. And first of all, No. 6, I It's too bad that 6 couldn’t be the obverse and 4A be the reverse in my (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 117 opinion. It's just not going to work that way, but it's a great rendering. So, I'm going to go with 4A with the choice of the beneficiary here. And the -- working on to the obverse, I agree with what Heidi said there on the striking of this, in particular on how the bronze ones would be, because of the washed out look or the sand look that the medals depict. Would a different -- if we had the right kinds of patinas to work with, I think you could really accentuate some of this, but I don't think that we're -- there isn't -- right, there is no patina to speak of. So, I think that 3 is a great design, but I think it will get washed out because of that. leaning more towards the cleaner look of 4. So, I'm And for the same reason, even though 2 is -- the depiction is nice and clean and separated, I think that it could, very well -- those borders will get kind of just blended in on the medal. would come out. I just think that's how it But to lean more toward obverse 4, I think it would be a nice tribute for them. Thank you, Madam Chairman. MS. LANNIN: Okay, we have Robert in Spain, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 118 telling us what he thinks of (inaudible). Robert, are you there? ROBERT: Hello, thank you. The computer is up now. MR. URAM: ROBERT: Yes. I would like to go with the tribe's preferences as is often the case, but I would first of all like to re-echo what Mike said about the firearms in these things. It looks to me as though there's four or five different weapons here, and we need to be sure about that. And also, other details of the uniforms are correct. of footgear also. I see several different types And also, the helmets. Some don't even look like World War II vintage American helmets. Also, I kind of wonder what is going on in these images? These are so much like all of the other code talker features with a single soldier crouching and talking on his radio equipment, but the 43rd Bombardment Group was actually an Army Air Corps division. And I'm just wondering what exactly was the action and what was their role, because maybe we're showing something that isn't really correct for them (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 119 if they were involved in airfields and flying and things like that. I would just like a little more information about what would be most correct. Does anyone have any details on that? UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: April said the inclusion of the 43rd Bombardment Group was a request, but we hear what you're saying about the positioning of the figures. There was -- there's been no commentary that there's an issue. And of course, we'll go and do our due diligence and do the research again, and absolutely make sure we touch base with you (inaudible) as well. ROBERT: Okay. My preference is for the obverse 4, actually, over the tribal preference 3. But I'd be willing to go with that since that is what their favorite is. I've never seen a turkey look quite like that. Not that I've seen all that many turkeys, but perhaps making those into symbolic corn and turkey images that would be quite a bit smaller would work with the design obverse 3. And that's it. I would go with the tribal (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 120 selection for the reverse type as well. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you very much, Robert. I have a couple of things. favorite for the obverse is No. 4. First of all, my But I want to make sure again that all of the uniforms, including the footgear are okay. And some of our other selections such as 2A or 3, the boot is -- kind of has the toe upturned. I don't -- it just strikes me as being sort of an odd way to picture a boot. tip of the boot. Take a look at the So, my preference for the obverse, because I think it it's really clean looking and I agree with Heidi, these really become symbols, would be No. 4. And I will vote with the tribe for their choice for the reverse, which would be No. 4A. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Do we have any other questions, discussion, anything? Okay, let's vote. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Please pass your -- pass your ballot over to this section. MS. LANNIN: And while we're tabulating, as soon as we get this organized, April, can you begin to (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 121 talk about the next one? MS. STAFFORD: Sure. St. Regis Mohawk. So, before I begin, I'll just reiterate that we have the same instance here that DOD is looking at this portfolio and will, of course, get back to us on the details of the uniforms and weapons. So, this is for the St. Regis Mohawk Code Talkers Recognition Congressional Gold Medal. We'll review 11 obverse and 10 reverse designs for the St. Regis Mohawk tribe from Akwesasne, New York. This is the 31st design completed out of the 33 verified for the program. We are very fortunate to have with us today Chief Ron LaFrance, Jr. Chief LaFrance, would you like to say a few words to our committee? CHIEF LaFRANCE: inviting me here today. First of all, thank you for We are very proud of the service of this country from our community members. Both my grandfathers served in World War II on opposite sides of the world. One was stuck in the Philippines in that awful place called Bataan. And my grandfather on my mother's side was one of the ones (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 122 that liberated some of the concentration camps in Europe. And I'm very proud that they served this country. And it took a long time for us to come together to go over these renderings, because we -you know, I come from a community that is very, very artistic. And when we saw these, we had some concerns, because we didn't feel they were depicted right. And then we met with Betty and April and we kind of, you know, we got through these. And I think the renderings that we chose are the best ones for our community. And I was telling April earlier that there was one family that they were split. reason, they were split. For whatever And then when I spoke to them and told them that we were going to be presenting their father with an award, they kind of got back together. So, they let all these things go. And, like, when I mentioned to them, I said, if you need me -- I can get two medals and we can have two separate award ceremonies for them. to do this all as one. And they said, no, we want So, it means a lot to our (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 123 community. We have a Post Legion, 1479, that's been there since 1949. And the members are on the wall today, and we're starting memorials that can be on the wall, memorial (inaudible) in our community, and it's receivable under good intention. So, I'd like to thank you for welcoming me here today. MS. STAFFORD: obverses. Okay, so starting with the All obverse designs depict a World War II code talker and incorporate the Mohawk tribe clans, Bear, Wolf, and Snapping Turtle, and an eagle and a snipe also important to the St. Regis Mohawk tribe. Designs are inscribed Akwesasne Mohawk Code Talkers. Here is obverse 1, 2, 3 -- I'm sorry, can you go back to 2? preference. Obverse 2 is the tribe's Obverse 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11. We come to the reverses. Reverse 1 and 2 depict the Hiawatha Belt and war clubs. They contain the inscriptions World War I and World War II, Act of Congress and 2008. Here is reverse 1 and 2. The remaining designs feature either a profiled silhouette or a realistic figure wearing variations of the Mohawk (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 124 kastowa headdress. Designs 5, 6, 7, 8A, and 9 incorporate one or more of the following. Bear claw necklace, war clubs, Mohawk Wolf belt, and Hiawatha belt. Inscriptions are World War I, World War II, and Act of Congress 2008. So, here are reverses 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, which is the tribe's preferred reverse, 8A, and 9. Back to you, Madam Chair. MR. SCARINCI: Can I ask a question? Is the tribe united in support of obverse 2 and reverse 8? There is no division in the tribe about obverse 2 or reverse 8, correct? MR. MORAN: Correct. MR. SCARINCI: Can I make a motion that we approve approve obverse 2 and reverse 8? MR. MORAN: Second. MS. LANNIN: All right, so let's vote on the MR. JANSEN: Could we have some discussion, MS. LANNIN: Any discussion? motion. please? UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: I just want to commend (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 125 the artists on the reverses in particular. The obverses are fairly uniform amongst them, all exceedingly busy. On the reverses, however, I think there are some really, really wonderful symbolic, artistic assertions here. I love the way the bond is integrated into the weave of designs 1 and 2. I love the feel of the Native profile in both 8 and 9. That is one of the more energetic ones, for that matter, 8A as well. That is one of the more colorful, incredibly wonderful profiles I've seen in any of the code talker series. And I don't want those comments to get swept away, although an overall motion is not unacceptable to me. MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Gary. Chief, you mentioned when you were speaking, that your people are artistic and I want to commend you. wonderful choices. I think you've made some For me, personally, the code talker series, which is a tremendous series, there have been plenty of times where there have been beautiful, artistic works of art produced, and then the various tribes and nations have passed over many (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 126 of them. I'm so pleased today that you've picked the ones that you have, because I truly believe that you will have the stand-out medal among all of the code talker medals. I truly believe that. the beautiful one. This will be And as far as my collection goes, that will be the name for your medal, because that is fabulous. So, thank you. CHIEF LaFRANCE: I thought I was going to have to argue with each and every one of you. (Laughter.) And I can be very persuasive. that's what my children tell me. much. At least But thank you very Like I said, we debated this for a long time, and when we presented it to our legion, it was overwhelmingly supported by them. least 250 legionnaires at home. And we have at And I think the oldest one is -- well, he just passed away. like 93. He was, And then we have some kids that just got out of serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, so, you know, it was an overall acceptance of these renderings. And once again, thank you so much. MR. SCARINCI: As the maker of the motion, I (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 127 would just like to -MS. LANNIN: Can you turn the microphone (inaudible). MR. SCARINCI: As the maker of the motion, I just want to make sure it's on the record that this is a great example of a success story of the way the US Mint staff has been handling a very difficult group of medals, and they should be commended. You know, they're resoundingly -- you know, this is some great art. This was a great result. And clearly, the recipients are not only happy, but it sounds like there were some personal success stories as a result of what you all did. And that wouldn't have happened but for your efforts that -- you know, and I'd like to make absolutely sure that the acting director realizes this and hears about this. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. It would be remiss if I didn't point out that Betty Birdsong is -who we all know, is the program manager of the entire Code Talkers Recognition Congressional Medals Program, the entire series. She's our chief contact with all of the tribes and is really out in front. So, I (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 128 appreciate that. It does belong to (inaudible), but Betty is our primary reason for that success. Thank you for your time. MS. LANNIN: we should vote. So, I guess all that remains is (Inaudible). Heidi, what (inaudible) you like to add to the discussion? MS. WASTWEET: While I support the motion, I just wanted to make a quick comment, another compliment to the Mint. This particular packet has a wide span of quality, the good, bad, and the ugly. And I want to thank you for that, because we've asked you in the past to not cull out things and try to second guess what we like. Show us everything. And this is evidence that you are, indeed, showing us everything. So, thank you for that. MS. LANNIN: Should we vote to the motion? All in favor of Donald's motion? the room. It's unanimous in Is it unanimous in Spain as well? ROBERT: Yes. MS. LANNIN: It is. All right, thank you very much. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 129 The representative from the (inaudible) would like to speak to us. MS. STAFFORD: there? Yes. Ms. Scott, are you So, our liaison, after hearing the committee's discussion, had some further consideration for the comments that you made, and so, why don't you share with us some thoughts. Ms. Scott, are you there? MS. SCOTT: Yes, I'm here. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. MS. SCOTT: If not -- Go ahead. For the obverse side, the family chose POL-CRN-002A. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: No, no, there's no 2A. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Yes, that's the obverse. MS. SCOTT: there. So, there's not a lot going on It's just, you know, the code talker with the Pueblo of Laguna information. And then, for the reverse side, they chose CRN-R-05. the symbols. So, it separates And the eagle, for your information, is the tribe's emblem. That's our logo. And the turkey and the corn are the clans of the individuals of Mr. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 130 Day. MS. STAFFORD: So, if I understand you correctly, just to confirm -MS. SCOTT: Yes. MS. STAFFORD: You're revising your preferences to be obverse 2A and reverse 5. MS. SCOTT: Yes. MS. STAFFORD: So, I don't know if, Madam Chair, if you -- the committee wanted to reconsider their votes with that, or if the voting stands or -MS. LANNIN: Ms. Scott, I'd like to, with your permission, report the votes that we have for both of the Congressional gold medals as they've been tabulated for us so far. MR. URAM: Thank you, Madam Chairman. For the Pueblo of Laguna Code Talker Congressional Medal, we considered all the designs. Design 1, zero; design 2, one; design 2A received three votes; design 3, 16; design 4, 18, and would be the preference of the committee at this point; 4A was six votes; 5 had zero; 6 had zero; 6A had three votes; and 7 had zero. For the reverse, we considered all the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 131 designs. Design 1 received three votes; design 2, one vote; design 3, zero votes; design 4, five votes; design 4A, and the preference of the committee, received 24 votes; zero (sic) 5 received zero votes; design 6 received 18 votes; and this was out of a possible 27 total. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. SCOTT: MS. LANNIN: MS. SCOTT: So, can I talk? Yes, go right ahead. Oh, okay. So, for the symbol, that -- for the 06 reverse, that is not our tribal symbol, and it doesn't depict how we represent the tribe. And so, like, the 04A and 05, those eagles are what depict the tribe and they represent the tribe. MS. LANNIN: Ms. Scott, we have -- when we voted, we voted for 04A, which does, in fact, represent your symbol. MS. SCOTT: MS. LANNIN: Yes. Okay. So, are we in agreement on that? MS. SCOTT: MS. LANNIN: Yes. Okay. Gary, would you like to make other comment? (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 132 MR. MARKS: When the committee conducted this vote not so long ago this afternoon, it was heavily influenced by what we believed the tribe's preference was. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: MR. MARKS: Exactly. So, at this point, if we're to understand that the tribe's preferences are different, I question the validity of our vote. I don't think it's a valid vote at this point, because I know for a fact many of the members were swayed by what they understood the preferences to be from the tribe. So, at this point, I'm not sure how the committee wants to handle it, but perhaps a simple up and down vote, but I just want to be on the record saying I don't believe this vote is now valid. MS. LANNIN: Okay. I think that the vote is actually valid, but I would like to honor Ms. Scott and the tribe's wish, because obviously, somehow, we misunderstood what their preferences were. And I think a simple -UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: They changed after hearing (inaudible). (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 133 MR. MARKS: That's why I'm saying it's not valid, ma'am, because (inaudible). an incorrect premise. People voted with So, they were misled by confusion or what have you, to make some selections that they would not otherwise have made. That's why I say that I don’t think this is valid. MS. LANNIN: Would you like to make a motion, Gary? MR. MARKS: Sure. I would move -- they wanted -- they are now -- let me make sure that this is clarified. If I understand now, the tribe is expressing a preference for obverse 2A and reverse 5, correct? MS. SCOTT: Yes. MR. MARKS: Okay. Then I would make a motion that the committee recommend obverse 2A and reverse 5. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Second? Second. MS. LANNIN: Tom seconds. Any discussion about this? MR. SCARINCI: Yeah. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 134 MS. LANNIN: Donald. MR. SCARINCI: I mean, what is it based on? I mean, is every -- are all of the stakeholders in that room that just had this discussion? I mean, who just had this discussion? MS. STAFFORD: Family members, I believe, of (inaudible). MR. SCARINCI: So, these are the relevant people and they had this discussion after listening to what we all said, and this is their conclusion? Now, are they sure this is their conclusion? MS. SCOTT: Yes. MR. SCARINCI: MS. SCOTT: Okay. This is it, right? Yes. MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: Okay. All in favor -- any more discussion? Heidi? MS. WASTWEET: obverse. I'm in agreement with the It was one of my top picks to begin with. 2A, I think, is a good clean design. though, I think is very cluttered. The reverse, And I still don't (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 135 like the position of the turkey. to look weird on the medal. I think it's going Even if we reposition the turkey, I think the reverse is very busy and I think that we are rubberstamping a design that is not the best design if we go with 5. So, maybe a motion separate for obverse and reverse, instead of together? UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Well, let's vote on the motion to see if there's votes. MR. MARKS: With respect to the tribe and their preference, I'll stand by my motion, if my second does, too. MR. URAM: (Inaudible). MS. LANNIN: Let's vote on this motion. All in favor of Gary's motion? UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Read the motion, UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: 2A -- please. MR. MARKS: Yeah, the motion is to recommend obverse 2A and reverse 5. MS. LANNIN: ROBERT: All in favor? One, two -- Yes, Robert. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Robert voted yes. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 136 MS. LANNIN: So, we are now -- the Pueblo of Laguna Code Talker Congressional Medal will be obverse No. 2A, as requested by the tribe, and reverse No. 5, as requested by the tribe. And that should take care of that. MS. SCOTT: Thank you. MS. LANNIN: You're welcome, Ms. Scott. (Inaudible). MS. SCOTT: Thank you. MS. LANNIN: We're going to take a five- minute recess, please. (Off the record at 2:25 p.m.) MS. LANNIN: I'd like to call the meeting back to order, please. (inaudible). gentlemen. We're three minutes late All right. Welcome back, ladies and April still has (inaudible). Next up we have the 2017 America The Beautiful Quarters Site background information. All right. April, would you tell us about the Boys Town Centennial Commemorative Coin? MS. STAFFORD: Sure. It is Public Law 114-30 that requires the Secretary of the Treasury to (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 137 mint and issue $5 gold coins, $1 silver coins, and half-dollar clad coins in 2017 to commemorate the centennial of the founding of Father Flanagan's Boys Town. Founded by Father Edward Flanagan in 1917, Boys Town was a national leader in child and family care, providing life-changing services to communities across the country. Father Flanagan's revolutionary approach laid a foundation for the modern daycare of children and families. Boys Town is recognized for its research on developing more effective ways to treat children with emotional and behavioral issues. Boys Town National Research Hospital is a world leader in research on and treatment of childhood deafness, speech problems, and other communication disorders. Boys Town has grown and thrived over the past century, impacting the lives of more than two million children and families across America each year. December 12th, 2017 will mark the hundredth anniversary of Boys Town, Nebraska. We are here today to hear the committee's (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 138 ideas on design concepts (inaudible) for this threecoin commemorative program. And, to this end, we've provided you a packet of background information on Boys Town for your consideration, and it should have been in the front pocket of your binders that we gave you. Before we begin the discussion, however, we are very fortunate to be joined by Dr. Jerry Davis, our liaison for this program and Boys Town Vice President of National Advocacy and Public Policy, and Laura Tatten, Boys Town's Senior Vice President of Marketing and Communications. Dr. Davis, would you please say a few words to our committee? DR. DAVIS: Well, first let me say how grateful we are and how thankful we are that we have this opportunity. Our agency really has embraced this as a way of honoring a hundred years of service past and getting ready for another hundred years of equally good service following. Father Flanagan was way ahead of his time. He took a system in America that was very abusive, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 139 very difficult -- whether we were talking about child welfare or juvenile justice, both of them were built on the notion that you put kids in large warehouses, basically, work them, (inaudible) them, and, you know, have them pay for their keep (inaudible). Father had a completely different notion, and what we like to eventually call it was the head and the heart. His heart was about (inaudible). He thought every child had worth -- just because they were a child of God's, they had worth -- and that if you put them in good environments and taught them the right kind of skills, they could turn out to be very good human beings. And we have proven that for the last hundred years that he was right. America. And it wasn't just in And we'll talk -- even just -- I will try to be very brief. I'll also entertain any questions. Father had a number of sayings that really helped him change the way America cared for children, things like "There are no bad boys." That was at a time when eugenics (ph) was part of what was happening in this country. And he said, "No, there are no bad (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 140 boys. There's only bad environment, bad examples, bad training." He said things like, "Every boy needs to learn how to pray." (Inaudible) he understood that being connected to a higher power was absolutely essential in overcoming some of the abuse and neglect that had gone on. You know, there were just so many of those others that are in your packet, if you'd like to review those. Beyond just the American system, he also traveled internationally at the request of the War Department and the President, to look at places like Japan and South Korea and Germany and Austria after the war to say, "What do you do when countries have these tremendous number of orphans and homeless people?" So he gave suggestions for all of that. every one of his successors -- there have only been four of them -- have added something (inaudible) important, but one thing has maintained its consistency throughout, and that's the heart. We now are very different than we were a (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 And Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 141 hundred years ago. We now are doing some of the cutting-edge brain research in this country on what helps young people who have mental or behavioral issued -- their brain can heal itself if given the right kind of treatment. So what is that treatment, and how do we do that? So it's just been a real evolution over the years, but what's stayed the same is that every child has worth, that they deserve to be in a place where they're cared for and loved. I have to tell you, we had a chance to have nine of your artists come out to our place in the last two weeks. goodness. What quality people they are. My I mean, I just couldn't -- I just couldn't believe when I met them all. Not only were they creative, but they were so good with our kids. And they would do things like go to a ballgame and catch the kids as they were coming and going and saying, you know, "This is such a big deal that we've got to try to put all this on one little coin. What would you put?" And the kids were very free with their (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 142 advice, you know. They're like, "Family and second chances and childhood and" -- they just went on and on and on. But I was just so taken with the camaraderie among the artists themselves and how much they respect this committee. They all look forward to getting the transcripts, or some of them are probably listening in now, to find out what your opinions are, because each one of them said, "They always make me better as an artist (ph)." But I probably should let you just ask questions or -- unless, Laura -- unless you've got something you want to say. MS. TATTEN: DR. DAVIS: MS. TATTEN: I would, if you'll let me. Yes, I'll let you. My name's Laura Tatten, and I run Marketing and Communications for Boys Town National. I thank you very much for having this here. This is so exciting. There's only two things I want to say, because Dr. Davis can tell you all that. around forever. He's been I have been at Boys Town for almost (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 143 seven years now, but I've lived in the Omaha area all my life, and I know -- I've always known of Boys Town. I've always driven by. worked there. I had family members who I knew what they did, what kind of -- everybody's seen the movie, everybody's heard the name. What I've learned -- there's two things that I'll tell you. One is what I've learned about Boys Town is that there are a ton of great charitable organizations doing wonderful work for kids and families. Boys & Girls Clubs, Make-A-Wish, St. Jude's, I mean, there's just a lot of them out there and a lot that help underprivileged youth, after-school programs, et cetera. But what Boys Town does is a little different. We take a subset of those kids who are underprivileged. We take a subset that is very difficult to deal with, kids who have been abused, neglected, kids who have gotten in trouble and really aren't that sympathetic when you first meet them. They're in the juvenile justice system when they cause trouble. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 144 And those kids, at the teenage years, most people would give up on them, and Boys Town doesn't give up on them. Father Flanagan would've never given up on them. And we, through -- we, not me. I'm in marketing -- (inaudible) individuals using a model of care that has been tested and researched, scientifically researched, years over year, create life-changing changes for these youth who most people will -- would've given up on. And these kids come out of Boys Town and become productive citizens, which is -- you know, it's a miracle. It's happening every day. The second thing I wanted to say is a personal story. When I was interviewing, I really wasn't convinced I wanted to go work for Boys Town. I didn't know that I wanted to go work for them in the private sector. I didn't know if I wanted to go work for a charity, didn't know what that meant. So what happened, I was doing some research and walked in the visitors' center, and a young man was behind the desk, and he walked up and introduced (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 145 himself. "Hello, I'm Trent. Good to meet you." said, "Oh, do you work here?" give you a tour. He said, "Yes. I I can I know all about the history. I can tell you all about Boys Town." And I said, "So this is your job?" He said, "Yeah, but I also play football," and then he went on to tell me all about football because they were going to the state championship, and he was pretty proud of that. And we talked for quite a while. very polite. exciting. He was very engaging. He was He was very I just thought, I'm going to go on my own, but, thank you. you a tour?" He said, "Are you sure I can't give "No, I don't -- I'll come back if I want one." Well, I walk out, and it dawned on me that he had probably been a juvenile delinquent. Sure enough, Trent had been a member of a gang, arrested for gun possession. God knows what he would've done had he not been arrested at that point before he used the gun or at least was caught using the gun. And Trent graduated. He was our Vice Mayor. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 146 He did obviously come from Boys Town. tours. And he gave And I was on a tour with a donor one day, and I said to Trent, "Hey, do you know (inaudible) here?" "I am?" I said, "Yeah." I said, "You really convinced me, and you were so polite. polite young man." You were such a And by the (inaudible). And so I -- after Trent graduated, I saw him that day, and I saw him two years later. Gives me a big hug. I'm going to Said, "I'm doing really great. Christian school. I'm going to become a minister." And he now works in North Omaha, which is a very impoverished area with a lot of gang violence. And anytime there's a shooting and there's a group gathering that tries to mend the community, he's at the forefront, and he's on the news (inaudible). So that's Boys Town to me. And I -- from my perspective heading up marketing, what I think is most important for people to know about Boys Town, in whatever way we can do this, is that we're still helping kids and families, and it is not just a movie and historical references. important to me. That's what's most Thank you. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 147 MS. STAFFORD: And because I know how important having input into the designing concept is, I've asked Dr. Davis and Ms. Tatten to take a seat at the table to answer any questions or have conversation about the topics for the three-coin commemorative program. MS. LANNIN: I just had one question. What point do the children age out of Boys Town? DR. DAVIS: out. We don't really let kids age They leave our campus, but we (inaudible). A huge amount of our care happens after kids leave us and are back in, so we continue to keep in contact with them and (inaudible). They typically leave our campus when they turn 18, or 19 in some states, which is when they become adults. MS. LANNIN: So the State sort of says that their time is finished at that point. DR. DAVIS: MS. LANNIN: Uh huh. But then you go on after that and make sure that they're placed where they need to be placed for continued development? DR. DAVIS: A huge amount of what we've done (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 148 over the years is to provide what we would call charity care. So when the state quit paying (inaudible) -MS. LANNIN: DR. DAVIS: Oh, yeah. -- was given an option. MS. LANNIN: DR. DAVIS: Okay. You can say if you want -- MS. LANNIN: Well, because they're saying the artist, you know, when they're, you know, aging children or young adults on a coin -DR. DAVIS: Uh-huh. MS. LANNIN: -- you know, how old they could actually sort of make them (inaudible) a good representation of that. Okay. Donald, do you have Yeah. I -- it's not as much one? MR. SCARINCI: of a question as much as it is just maybe a little piece of advice. You're at the end -- you're at the last phase of what was a very long process, an arduous process, to get -- to get here, to get a -- to get a commemorative coin approved through Congress and to now actually be sitting here, talking about your (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 149 design. DR. DAVIS: Right. MR. SCARINCI: And I think, you know, while it's the end of the process for you, it's probably the most important part of your ultimate result. And you really need to identify for yourselves -- and this is a very important thing -- not -- and this is not a question for you to answer to us. It's a question for you to discuss amongst yourselves, if you haven't already, and that is, you know, what is your ultimate objective with this commemorative coin? Is it -- is your objective to make money for your organization, or is your objective to create a commemorative design, you know, that -- you know, that you would like to see -DR. DAVIS: Narrative. MR. SCARINCI: your organization? -- a narrative design for What is your ultimate objective? And I think those two things may very well be diametrically opposed. And, you know, we have seen designs that get recommended by the host committees, and they're just (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 150 adamant -- they think it's great, and we just tell them, "No. It's bad. not pretty. It's not going to sell. Nobody's going to buy it. It's Only -- you know, and you're not going to sell as much as you think you're going to sell." And, sure enough, they don't even meet their -- you know, they end up getting zero. DR. DAVIS: Uh-huh. MR. SCARINCI: And you could get that information marketing-wise in this little book. It's called the Red Book of the United States Coins -DR. DAVIS: Yep. MR. SCARINCI: -- and it's got a section on commemorative coins with mintage (ph) figures. you will -- you will make a correlation. And When you look through mintage figures and coin designs, you will see for yourself and use your own aesthetic that, you know, in general -- I'm sorry -- in general, aesthetically appealing coins, you know, pretty coins, sell, and coins that have portraits on them and that are not particularly aesthetically appealing, they do not sell. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 151 And, you know -- you know -- and so that's a process that you have to go through. We always are going to push you towards, you know, pushing the envelope on aesthetically appealing coins. The people that you're working with, you know, (inaudible) know that and they're going to certainly, you know, tell you what you're going to (inaudible) has pushback from us if you push for certain coins. So you're going to go through this design process. You've already, you know, you know, encountered, you know, the artists, and they're very creative, and -- you know, as you saw yourself, you know, great group of people. So, you know, it's a fun part of the process, and as tired as you may be to get to this point, you know, it's like -- you know, it's like designing a room, you know, the last 10 percent of the decorations you put in the room make all the difference. And that's what you -- that's where you are right now. And it really is -- you know, you'll make it a lot easier for yourself, you know, and ultimately a (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 152 lot easier for us, if you identify your real objective. And, you know -- and I'd like to say you could have both, you know, and I guess sometimes you can, you know, and maybe you can if you're creative. And, you know, it depends how fixated you are. If you're going to come to us with portraits and that's really important to you -- as you can see, you know, we give deference, you know, to you -- less deference in commemorative coins than to Congressional Gold Medals, but you get a lot of deference, you get a lot of room, and, you know, if portraits are something you've just got to have it, you just have to be aware, you know, people are less likely to buy portraits. And the things that do sell are pretty designs. You know, and if you could come up with them, and if you could challenge the (inaudible), those -- they'll do as much as you want because they all want to get their -- they all want to get their design approved, and they all listen -- you know, have listened to this design after design after design. So they're motivated and incentivized to get their designs approved. You know, we want to see good (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 153 designs because we want to win awards and -DR. DAVIS: Uh-huh. MR. SCARINCI: -- you know, we want the United States coins to be great coins again. And, you know, so we're all -- we're all -- you know, we're all rowing this boat in the same direction, and, you know, I just think, you know, that the hard decision for you is this decision that you're about to make. And you've got to be honest with yourselves and your own group, you know, what your real objective is. DR. DAVIS: Good advice. time talking about that. We have spent some We'll try to give you the answer to it here. MR. SCARINCI: DR. DAVIS: Uh-huh. One of the things we realize is that we're not designed. MR. SCARINCI: Right. That's a great first step. MS. LANNIN: It's the essential first step. MR. SCARINCI: MR. MARKS: That really is. Are we -- (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 154 MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Yeah. -- doing our comments now? Yeah, we're doing our comments. Okay. Can I go? MS. LANNIN: A booster seat. MR. MARKS: Okay, thanks. First of all, let me say -- I'll echo just a little bit of what Donald said without being too repetitious. I would imagine, from what I know of Father Flanagan and the heart he had for people and for children, I would venture to say the last thing he would want is to have his own image on this medal. And I just want to encourage you to keep that thought in mind. want? What would Father Flanagan Obviously, a great man who founded an organization that has done so much good in the world. And I think that's -- from my research, that's what this medal needs to be about, about the good that this organization has done in the world. And when I read the legislation that went through Congress, under the "Design of Coin" section, it says, uh, that "It's to be emblematic of the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 155 100 years of Boys Town, one of the largest nonprofit childcare agencies in the United States." Okay? So whatever we're doing here should span a hundred years. And I also read under the findings -- one of them is "Boys Town was created to serve children of all races and religions." To me that brings an image to mind of maybe a small grouping of children of both genders, maybe some racial -MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Diversity. -- diversity, together, maybe arms around each other, something of that nature, or maybe the brothers' image -- maybe you mix it up, and you have one of them as a female, to be inclusive and kind of bring it into the modern age, still honoring that iconic image. So -- and those are just some of the thoughts that ran through my mind. Sadly, I won't be on the committee when you come back again, but I will be watching intently what this group does, and I have great faith that the guidance you get from them will be good. I know these people very well, and they're very good. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 156 The staff is exceptional, and I'm looking forward to something that is just a home run, knockit-out-of-the-park piece of art, because the people who buy these things, they like to buy them because of their artistic appeal. And the ones that don't reach that level, as Donald said, they don't sell. they become rare, you know. And then That's a distinction that maybe you want. MR. SCARINCI: MR. MARKS: One that you don't. And then they're expensive, but here again, you know, if it's something that sells well, then it'll always be, in future generations, people who want to buy one on the secondary market, they'll be able to afford to do it. So those are just some thoughts to keep in mind. And for that, I'll cede any time I have left to anyone else. MS. STAFFORD: Madam Chair, if I could, I just thought it was interesting, what Gary mentioned about the brothers and perhaps one is a female. If it's okay, I'd like to ask Dr. Davis just to maybe tell us a little bit of the background about your (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 157 original two-brother statue, the story behind that and how -- the evolution that took place to -- for that to change into, I think, part of your current logo, which is of a young man and a girl he's carrying (inaudible) -DR. DAVIS: A (inaudible). MS. STAFFORD: DR. DAVIS: Yeah. MS. STAFFORD: DR. DAVIS: It's also in the (inaudible). Uh-huh. The way the logo came about, it really was part of Father's belief system, and (inaudible) all races, creeds, religions, et cetera. And one day, when -- his second home was an old threestory home down in Omaha, Nebraska, and there was a little kid by the name of Howard Loomis, who got dropped off at the orphanage, and -- or this home, and he had polio, so he had braces on his legs. So some of the bigger kids used to carry him up and down the steps. And Reuben Granger was one of those kids. And one day, Father came down, a particularly hot day, from the third-story floor, and there was Reuben [sic], you know, being carried up the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 158 third floor. And he said, "Isn't he getting pretty heavy?" He said, "He ain't heavy, Father. brother." He's my Well, Father had originally made a little begging urchin his fundraising symbol (ph), and he immediately thought to change that, because he said, "When kids learn to help each other, they get better themselves." And that's been a central philosophy at Boys Town every [sic] since. And about 2000, we actually changed the name of Boys Town to Girls and Boys Town, because we had taken girls. It was close to 50/50, almost, (inaudible) as to how many we serve of each gender, and we involve so much market share that our lending experts told us "You can't do that." our logo going forward. So we've changed Our two-brother statute, it will be unveiled -- Laura's been working with us to have a brother carrying his little sister with a pigtail on her -- on his back. MALE SPEAKER: MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: That's great. Mary? Yeah. We have had several things that (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 159 you probably should not do going forward. you. I commend You did one thing right, getting all those artists on-site so their heart gets into it. So many times, they do their designs off the Internet, and you don't get your best work that way. Be aware of the size of (inaudible), because it dictates what can go on. nickel. A $5 gold piece is a Whatever scene you have is going to be up close because you can't take a perspective and put it on a nickel. Your best perspective is on the dollar coin and something in between on the half dollar. We have gotten into issues with this committee -- and I don't think it's been our best moments -- when we mix and match because we get varying things, and we'll -- sometimes like a half dollar reverse, but we think it goes with a dollar obverse, and we end up shoehorning the two together. I always hated it. I have to take a bathroom break when we do that, be somewhere else, anywhere else. If you can come up with overarching themes for the three coins to be designed -- in terms of the designs, I think it would help our artists and give (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 160 some more effective and original appearing -- we're at our best when we don't design coins by a committee, and I don't know how long you -- how much you were in here for the earlier part of that. We don't want to go there. And to reinforce Donald's point, we thought that the Girl Scout coin would be a big seller because you had the entire Girl Scout organization behind it. It was not. I would argue that I think that -- well, Donald said it was hard to do. hard. I'm not sure it's that I think that you can have a marketing success -- you should have, with your alumni base. You should have a big marketing success there. And with the aesthetics -- good aesthetics, good designs, you'll sell it to the collector base too because they'll all really get on with it. And you'll have a double winner there, and you'll make good money with good art. MS. LANNIN: Heidi, would you like to (inaudible) add anything? MS. WASTWEET: MS. LANNIN: Sure. Okay. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 161 MS. WASTWEET: I've actually made quite a few notes here, so if you'll bear with me. It was a big packet, and there was a lot of rich material here to work with. So I'd like to narrow it down a bit so we're not too scattered. And there was one phrase that really stood out to me. It says "Where that fabric is torn, Boys Town mends it." This was a really good imagery of -- that we can draw on. So it would be really interesting to see two images that were literally stitched together, to somehow represent the repairing of the torn communities and families and societies that Boys Town repairs. That would make some really creative and interesting images. MR. SCARINCI: How about two-part coin? MS. WASTWEET: There you go. MR. SCARINCI: How about a two-part coin? MS. WASTWEET: Somebody's come from (inaudible). MR. SCARINCI: It doesn't have to be - it does not have to be on that coin board, because they can do it. They can technologically do whatever you (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 162 want them to do. FEMALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible). Let that be on the record. MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible). FEMALE SPEAKER: What does the legislation FEMALE SPEAKER: Thank you. say? Thank you. For the team. MALE SPEAKER: Good luck. MS. WASTWEET: A caution, anytime you represent people, generic people, you run into the issue of race and gender, so just be aware of that. And as far as the history, you know, it's amazing that this has been going on for a hundred years, and I would like to see how that is relevant today as it was a hundred years ago. And I think that echoes what you were saying of how it -- it does have a rich history, but more spectacularly what it's doing today. So we can have the touches on the historic, but then make sure that that's somehow relevant to today. If we do the -- an image of Father Flanagan, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 163 which I'm not totally against, but let's not make it just a portrait bust, a static bust, but do something more creative with it. I'm picturing rays coming out from him because his influence spread out so much throughout the community, or rays from his heart, or something like that. So it's not just a static portrait, but something stylized a little more than that would be appropriate. And there were subtle suggestions of this building, that building, a signpost, a statue. recommend against all of those things. not a place, it's a philosophy. I Boys Town is It's not a building, it's a community, and it's a group. So to put a building on the coin, I think, would be a complete misdirect. And we're not a fan of putting statues on coins, but like original art, no matter how well that statue is made. The other thing -- sometimes we see -oftentimes we see the organization logos on a coin, and oftentime that's appropriate. In this instance, I think -- personally I think that's not appropriate for (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 164 Boys Town. This is not a brochure. We don't (inaudible) phone number on there, directions to your facility, the website address, and one of the sketches here was a map showing Boys Town sites across the United States. That's very brochure-ish, and let's not go there. The idea of your logo is fantastic, the brothers, one carrying the other, and that whole philosophy of kids caring for each other, (inaudible) not just care for themselves -- not just (inaudible) themselves, but then help others. That's fantastic, and that's what your logo represents, so let's focus on what your logo means instead of putting the logo on there. There are plenty of other places to put your logo, on the packaging or on -- when you talk about it (inaudible) talk about the coin, plenty of places for the logo. We don't need the logo taking up space on the coin when we could do something so much more interesting. And then lots of good reference pictures (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 165 that were provided, some neat pictures of kids carrying other kids on their backs. Artistically speaking, it's really going to make a difference how it's poised on the coin, and this is really a message for the artist, to fit within the circle nicely and to make sense on the small palette. If the figures are too forward, it may look like the legs are sprouting out from a strange place, and you won't really get a sense of two people there, but too much on one. So working with models would be great and to turn the bodies in such a way that it really aesthetically makes sense and you could really see what's going on on that tiny (ph) coin. I think that was -- I think that's all that I had. (Inaudible)? MALE SPEAKER: MS. TATTEN: Yeah. We got some great direction from Roger (ph) and his team, and the packet was put together, not so much to suggest images, because we know the art -- the original art and the artists will come up with something, and having managed creative process, I wouldn't want to pre-guess any of that. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 166 We're -- we just put together a bunch of images that we thought represented things they should see, so logo, Father Flanagan, some of the things you mentioned, like buildings, that kind of thing. Never intended to be -- you know, we realize it's only a coin kind of thing. MS. WASTWEET: MS. TATTEN: Right. Boys Town. But more a feeling of "This is This is the breadth of what we do." The map -- you know, "This is -- we are all over the country" -MS. WASTWEET: MS. TATTEN: representation. Uh-huh. -- you know, kind of So it was hard because (inaudible) marketing -DR. DAVIS: Because some of us had opinions, right. MS. TATTEN: I would like to see it in the brochure, but holding myself back, knowing it needs to be a piece of art, this is just us, and this is who Boys Town is and what it -- what it looks like. definitely was not trying to push in any one (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 So it Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 167 direction. MS. WASTWEET: Good. I've been on this committee for five years now, and what I've seen happen is these kinds of packets with all this background information, it is valuable, and it is just a jumping-off point. But what happens in reality is sometimes our group of artists take this as a longer list, and they'll say, "Oh, they want to see this and this and this and this and this." They don't really understand that it's a jumping-off point. And we work with them, and we've been encouraging them. So the more we emphasize that, the better. MS. STAFFORD: Yeah. That's a great point. And I just wanted to reiterate, when we first met with Dr. Davis and Ms. Tatten, the first thing they said was "We are not the artists. that they do. We appreciate the work We want to tell you who we are, what we do, what we're about, where we're going, and then just see what they can bring to the table." And I know that's a wonderful place for us to begin. And I appreciate you underscoring that, but, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 168 really, yes, this packet was created actually not so much right now for the artists as for this committee so that this committee could comment upon this material, and whatever comes out of this discussion, we could give back to the artists. So whether that's look at the background information and just bring us what you've got or whether you want to make a commentary about how the three coins are to work together, whether there's supposed to be some kind of, you know, history, you know, what they do now, looking -- any ideas you can bring that we can pass to the artist, we're ready to take (inaudible). Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: Remember when -- I'm sorry, (inaudible). MALE SPEAKER: No, it's okay. MR. SCARINCI: Remember when the -- remember when the -- remember when the March of Dimes people were here and they -- and somebody suggested -- I think it was actually Mike. I mean, somebody suggested -FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 169 MR. SCARINCI: an inset into a coin. -- that they do put a dime as And, you know -- and they just wanted to -- they obviously wanted to go the conventional way, and they did portraits, and, of course, nobody bought them, and, you know, (inaudible) what they wanted, but it didn't -MS. STAFFORD: I love our March of Dimes MR. SCARINCI: Except they didn't sell. coins. think (inaudible). I So, you know -- but the -- you know, but the -- but the -- but then Nooey did exactly that. I mean, CIT -- CIT, on behalf of Nooey, did exactly that, and they made a fortune on the -- on the little dime, and then it got taken off, and -- March of Dimes. And I don't know if they -- certainly March of Dimes didn't get -- didn't get anything, but CIT, the (inaudible) made money. So, I mean, if they tell you -- and I would say to the Mint, if they tell you they want to make, you know, (inaudible) -FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: (Inaudible). If they -- if they tell you (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 170 they want to make money, you know, then, you know, we should -- we should -- you know, this is -- this is -this is a really cool opportunity, you know, to play with, you know, the whole -- you know the whole ephemeral (ph) thing. You know, and maybe you can consider a hologram on a coin for the first time on a U.S. coin. (Inaudible) collapse down there, but they could do it. And -- you know, and when you do a first -- and when you do a first, you know, just like the baseball coin, that sold out. It -- FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: it. Yeah. You know, the public loved You know, they ate it up. And when you -- you know, and when you do a first, you know, it's going to sell out, you're going to make a ton of money, and -you know, and if it's, you know, technologically a first, you know, that would be cool. And, you know, I kind of can see -- I kind of see a Father Flanagan, you know, sun, you know, light, hologram kind of thing. I could kind of see, you know, the male/female thing in the progression, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 171 the fabric that separates a two-part medal -- I could -- two-part coin. I could kind of see a lot of -- MR. JANSEN: So, Donald, are you encouraging a gold inset in the silver dollar? "It's not heavy, it's my brother"? metallic. MR. SCARINCI: I could see -- MALE SPEAKER: There we go. MR. SCARINCI: I could see it (inaudible) I like -- I could see the second United States (inaudible) metallic coin. MR. JANSEN: I mean, it depends -- You would sell ten times the amount of gold that way if you -MR. SCARINCI: If -- if you want -- you know, if you want to make money, that's a different kind of conversation. And, you know -- and you should not be intimidated about having a conversation, and this group will certainly support any technologically creative ideas that they give us. DR. DAVIS: I like the conversation a lot. I mean, not to make money, although that's a -MR. SCARINCI: DR. DAVIS: Right. Our -- I'll address that issue (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 172 on that. We started this process through Congress with a bill (inaudible) surcharges back to Boys Town. And we were willing to try to pass the bill like that, even though that wasn't our wish. sponsor's wish, et cetera. It was our So we were able to pass this thing twice. And what that money's going to be used for is incredibly important. We are beginning to break in to some of the most high-risk communities in this country and help to try to organize other investors and not-for-profits that are there in a way that we think we might be able to, after we earn our citizenship, help make some real change in those inner-city communities. That's what everything that comes from this coin dedicated to that, so we hope we do make some money. But it's far more important to us to have some of the things that you're talking about that really honors where we've been, where we are, and where we're going. MR. SCARINCI: Uh-huh. MALE SPEAKER: You can do both. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 173 MS. LANNIN: Greg needs to make a comment. MR. WEINMAN: I think I'm (inaudible). MR. SCARINCI: MR. WEINMAN: Sorry, Greg. That's okay. No, with all due respect to the incredible creativity of the committee, the legislation unfortunately doesn't specifically define what (inaudible) the content of currents are. MR. SCARINCI: MR. WEINMAN: (Inaudible) content. Yes, (inaudible) silver coins not only must weigh 8.359 grams, but must be composed of 90 percent gold, 10 percent -- or the gold -- I'm sorry. Ten -- 90 percent gold, 10 percent alloy. The silver must weigh 26.73 grams and contain 90 percent silver and 10 percent copper; and the clad weighing 11.34 grams and must -- I mean, I guess we have some flexibility on what the clad is made of, but it must weigh 11.34 grams and have a diameter of 1.205 inches. DR. DAVIS: MR. WEINMAN: The committee -- DR. DAVIS: Unfortunately -The committee put that back in as boilerplate. MR. WEINMAN: Yeah, it is, unfortunately, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 174 but -- it may be boilerplate, but it's also (inaudible). DR. DAVIS: Yeah. MR. WEINMAN: (Inaudible) flexibility with the metallic (ph) content of the coin that we might -MS. STAFFORD: But the spirit -- but the spirit of Mr. Scarinci's comments, I think, is something that we all hear, and we're absolutely -MALE SPEAKER: Yes. MS. STAFFORD: -- ready to take that back and have as much conversation as we can to push those boundaries. MALE SPEAKER: Maybe the boundaries (inaudible). MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible). MS. STAFFORD: Yes. MALE SPEAKER: I'm a lawyer. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Anybody have a question? First of all, congratulations on getting to this point, because I know -- I've spent an hour, as I mend, or so with your representatives, so I'm not going to belabor that. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 175 DR. DAVIS: MR. URAM: Right. I think you guys are well in tune into the network that you're working with and what you're trying to accomplish. Tomorrow we have the Lions Club, who was in your position -DR. DAVIS: MR. URAM: DR. DAVIS: MR. URAM: Yes. -- a year or so ago. Yes. And one of the things that they were really concerned about was having their founder on the coin. And I think Father Flanagan on the coin should be (inaudible) be honest with you, and I think it's just how it's made out. But one of the things that they did -- and I'll just show you here -- they did eyeglass (inaudible) -DR. DAVIS: MR. URAM: the front. Yeah. -- or they did the lion (ph) on So they've added other motifs that will enhance that image. DR. DAVIS: MR. URAM: (Inaudible) -So I think that maybe look -- as (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 176 Don had said there, look at the red book, see what works, see what sells. Your picture here, this -- you know, having this depiction with a -- with a young lady as well and the dog -- animals are always good. And, you know, it would really enhance the image. But I think for sure I would -- I would want to see Father Flanagan on something, but it's how you would surround it, whether it would be rays or whatever. But I think you could even go above and beyond that. But, having said that, good luck on the adventure, and I'm sure your heart and the association is well into it, but I think you'll do fine. DR. DAVIS: MS. TATTEN: Thank you, sir. I'm actually glad to hear you say that because Father Flanagan was a very humble man to some degree, but he was also the greatest marketer I've ever -DR. DAVIS: MS. TATTEN: Absolutely. He hired a professional photographer who followed him around for years and took photographs -- (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 177 FEMALE SPEAKER: MS. TATTEN: Really? -- of various scenarios, which we have a archive with all those photographs in them. Yeah, he invited celebrities to campus for many reasons: one, to get attention for the home; two, to get money from them. Yes, so he was the greatest marketer and fundraiser ever. So he had very great motives for those activities. MALE SPEAKER: MS. TATTEN: DR. DAVIS: He knew (inaudible). That's to help more kids -- Yeah. MS. TATTEN: But he knew that -- DR. DAVIS: That's exactly right. MS. LANNIN: I just wanted to say that we have the past, the present, and the future to work with, and you have six sides. You have six chances at art. MS. TATTEN: Uh-huh. MS. LANNIN: So at some point, I think at least one side will make almost everybody happen in some instance. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 178 DR. DAVIS: Uh-huh. MS. LANNIN: Yeah. So -- but, I mean, I agree with Donald: the more dynamic, the more interesting (inaudible) things, the more technologically interesting, that's going to make you money, and we're not -- it's not Girl Scout cookies. DR. DAVIS: Yeah. MS. LANNIN: Yeah. Now, it's (inaudible) to make money, but if we can challenge Stacy and Don and the staff, we're all for it. Does anyone else (inaudible) -- Erik? MR. JANSEN: I have three sets of comments: one to the spec here, two to the (inaudible), and three, an unusual item to try to drive a point home with management in the Mint. First of all, in terms of the comments, Donald was absolutely right. right on the money. Okay? Thank you. His wisdom is To Greg, to the Mint, do we have a copyright issue with "He ain't heavy, he's my brother," to the lyric and what predated what? Sorry for not being a historian here. MR. WEINMAN: By and large, quotes are not (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 179 copyrightable anyway, but it depends -FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. WEINMAN: (Inaudible). Yeah. And the quote in this case certainly predates the lyric of the song. MS. TATTEN: They also gave -- they also gave us the rights to that song. MR. WEINMAN: (Inaudible). FEMALE SPEAKER: MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible). And we've worked that out with Boys Town, so yes. MR. JANSEN: Second of all too -- thank you -- the commentary on the portraiture, I made a note in the margin prior to the comments here that including his face is kind of a contradiction to the "I'm -whether I'm here or not doesn't matter because it's God's work, not mine." And so I would encourage you and your organization to close your eyes and try to verbalize the portrait (inaudible) see it, because I think it'll lead you to creativity so that the portrait is more a portrait of energy, his social relationships, his style, which are really, I think, the transcendent (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 180 pieces of anyone's portrait. Second of all, Heidi -- listen to this woman here. No buildings, please. it won't add value. It won't work. At least And I just -- thank you for the richness of your spec here. There's a ton of stuff here combined with the personal experiences. I want to move on to the second point I wanted to make, and this goes to hopefully the committee as well as to you as to how you think of these three coins and their utility and their content. The legislation says we can sell 50,000 gold, 350,000 silver, and 300,000 clad half dollars. Now, let me put that in a better perspective for you. The silver's going to go out at a price point of several hundred dollars. The -- I'm sorry, the gold will. The silver'll go out at a price point around 50, plus or minus, depending on what silver does and so forth. And the clad half dollars somewhere in the single digits. I'd love to see it go out at 51 cents. It never will. Because at 51 cents, you could use it as a marketing tool. And you still may be able to at (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 181 $5 and change. Now, having said that, we have struggled as a committee for the past couple, few years when we encounter these three-coin, two sides, two-by-three dimensionality here, picking and trying to match images. And I understand the Mint is actually soliciting paired designs here. I'm hoping the committee, when those pairings come in -- one, I hope we have the discipline -- we don't take half of a design and match it with another half of a different design. designs as a whole. line to pairings. with that. We take the I hope the committee can toe the I mean, we'll get to be challenged We've seen in in the past a couple times on some Congressional medals, and it hasn't been pretty, so I'm hoping we can do better with that. To your guys' thinking, and also as a charge to the artists here, I want to posture those three coins on a hierarchy. Now, the middle coin is your money coin. DR. DAVIS: MR. JANSEN: Uh-huh. The silver -- when you do your (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 182 math, the silver's your money coin. And so pay really close attention to his advice: no buildings, please, on that coin. It's really important. But I would posit the gold, the silver, and the clad somewhat differently beyond that. needs to be the ultimate thematic coin. The gold When we were in the National Park system, it carried the moniker, the charge of the National Park system. When we got down to the 50-cent piece, we made a coin that appealed to kids so that it would sell in the National Park Service stuff, because at nine bucks, that might be a trinket of a child's youth that really lasts through his life, plants plenty of seeds. So I want you to think of these three coins and the artists as well to kind of go from the general at the high end to the specific at the low end, adult to child in terms of content of appeal, principal at the gold end to tactical as you move through silver and clad; ethereal to (inaudible). And so I'd put that out as just kind of the conceptual context to lay these three coins in perspective and, April, to charge the artists with (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 183 really kind of the bigger contextual challenges so we don't end up with some golds that should be on clads and -- I mean, it's really hard, but I think it is really essential if we're going to survive this pairing process that's kind of new and bold and different, but good. And then the third point I want to make here is really to give the staff here something to pass up to management. And, with all respect to Madam Chair, I'm going to make a motion here. I think it is so important that the management of the Mint overlook the financial pressures that are always used as the excuse why it doesn't happen. To invest a little bit upfront to raise the quality, the depth, the breadth, the experiential context that the artists have and get, from this committee, as to what these coins should be. In this case, we've had nine artists -DR. DAVIS: MR. JANSEN: Uh-huh. -- that came to your facility -DR. DAVIS: MR. JANSEN: Right. -- and you have -- you've paid (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 184 that. I understand. DR. DAVIS: MR. JANSEN: Yep. A wise investment on your part, I might add. DR. DAVIS: MR. JANSEN: I think so. I would like to see that the management of the Mint really step up and realize that you've got to spend money to make money; got to invest money to get quality. To spend the additional $5,000 or $10,000 on these coin programs, whether it's a circulation mandated quarter to the next major commemorative, because the quality of our output, Coin of the Year, what we're satisfied with, numismatic sales volumes that we were told this morning are 8 percent below projected levels, the quality of that output, the achievement of those goals, really is limited at the very front end if we don't inspire the artist with the breadth of possibility and to give them the -- not the laundry list, Heidi, but the laundry line to hang out all the ideas. DR. DAVIS: MR. JANSEN: Uh-huh. And so my motion would be (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 185 merely a philosophical statement from this committee to encourage the Mint management to authorize spending more liberally to educate the artists in front of their charge than we're currently doing. MS. LANNIN: I'd like to ask Greg to address your motion. MR. WEINMAN: Just two things. Number one, obviously, the point of information (ph), as you all know, the Mint has to cover its costs under the law; otherwise, the organization doesn't receive its surcharges. And so it's a (inaudible), obviously, and something that, of course, the Mint is very conscious of. That said, I think the motion is on borderline of what is the -- what's the charter of the CCAC. You know, you certainly have the authority to talk about things, concept. I'm not sure of whether or not how we -- how we market is necessarily within that -- in that parameter. So I'd probably ask you to reconsider (inaudible) and we'd obviously -- we've obviously heard you and we'll -MS. STAFFORD: Well, and for more (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 186 information, just to round it out, if I could add in the case with Boys Town, the three artists that made up the contract group that are going to be on this program, they actually were not able, during the time period that was offered, to attend. And Stacy, I believe the artists in Philadelphia, did you want to speak to that? MS. KELLEY: Yes, actually, this was offered to the artists in Philadelphia. I do have this as a part of our budget for not only this program, but other programs. And for this one in particular, the -- none of the artists were able to actually travel at that time, but we do highly encourage that. MS. STAFFORD: And we have -- and I do -- it's one of those -- when it's a commemorative coin program, we do have a very different view. We make sure our spending is in line and all of that. But I do know in the past we've had a lot of support from management sending artists out. I know for our September 11th Congressional Gold Medal Series, the three that we did, we took artists to each of those sites. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 187 MS. KELLEY: MS. STAFFORD: Yes. And it was very important to our leadership at that time that we do so. MS. KELLEY: MS. STAFFORD: Yes, absolutely. But I -- but I take your point, and it's something I definitely -- we can pass it along. I think they would agree with that part of it. MR. WEINMAN: Including to our marketing folks. MS. STAFFORD: MR. JANSEN: appreciate all of that. Uh-huh. Yeah. Philosophically, I Numerically, to the financial statement, I think numismatic sales at the Mint number in the hundreds of millions of dollars, and I would argue what I'm speaking of might amount to $50,000 or $100,000, which would be a small fraction to the second decimal point of the sales. So I would take issue on a numismatic front with the materiality of the expenditure relative to the payback, whereas a payback could add several single-digit growth percentage numbers to that sale. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 188 So I think on an ROI basis, it's a no-brainer. And to the -- speaking to the amortizing of the costs on a commemorative program, the analysis becomes very, very similar, because I think most of these commemorative programs are going to be benchmarked to produce, at a disappointing end, a couple million dollars to a home run end -- no pun intended. I don't know what the baseball commemorative series did, but I think it would be a home run, probably 10 to 20 times that number. Again, against a few-thousand-dollar expense, the ROI's obvious, and the defense of why not to do it financially is absurd. MS. LANNIN: wrap-up if we could. MR. MARKS: (Inaudible) okay, Gary, a quick We're running a tad late. Sure. Maybe add onto what Erik was saying, maybe in a little different way. This Mint organization has come so far in the last five years, and there are so many accomplishments and achievements that you can point to now, and I think you should feel very good about that. And I think what (inaudible) is saying now (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 189 is that with those accomplishments under your belt, to the extent you possibly can with the legislation and the different limitations that you obviously have, strive to be innovative, look for those opportunities to do something different. That's what your customer base really thirsts for. There's a lot of saneness in numismatics. Be innovative. You've proved that you can do this. Impress us again. So I guess whether there's a motion or not, I think the record bears what this message is now that let's go on and make this a great one, because I think we've got an opportunity to do that. We obviously have a phenomenal themed subject matter here. I am just sad I won't be here to help you all make the choices. So God bless you all. MR. JANSEN: Thank you, Gary. MS. LANNIN: (Inaudible). FEMALE SPEAKER: MS. LANNIN: Well said. (Inaudible). Has everybody had a -- Jeanne, would you like to contribute? Anybody say anything else on this point? MS. SOLLMAN: I don't think I could -- (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 190 MS. LANNIN: We're a little late, and I just want (inaudible). MS. SOLLMAN: MS. LANNIN: -- don't think I could -- MR. HOGE: Robert, are you -I'm listening, but I don't have anything more to add. MS. LANNIN: All right. Thank you. So all discussion for Boys Town is finished for the day. FEMALE SPEAKER: MS. LANNIN: Thank you very much. All right. Let's move on to -- April? MS. STAFFORD: Yes. Okay. So, again, a design concept discussion for the 2018 America The Beautiful Quarters Program. You have been provided the background information. I'm happy to read through it. So we'll start with the Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore, which is in Michigan. Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore embodies wild beauty on the Lake Superior shore. Established in 1966, it's the first national lakeshore (inaudible) park that (inaudible) the Lake Superior coast for more than 40 miles. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 191 The shoreline consists of 200-foot-high colorful sandstone cliffs, numerous beaches, and 300foot-tall sand dunes. The shore (inaudible) over 100 miles of trails offer visitors superb opportunities for hiking, backpacking, camping, and sightseeing. Lake Superior and inland lakes offer boating opportunities, including kayaking, (inaudible), and boat tours among the cliffs. There is abundant wildlife, such as black bears, deer, and porcupine, as well as bald eagle and peregrine falcons. The lakeshore features an impressive collection of maritime historic resources, including two former Coast Guard stations, the Munising Range Lights -- I hope I'm saying it accurately -- and the Au Sable Light Station, a magnificent lighthouse and double (ph) keepers' quarters that dates back to 1874. Through informal discussions with representatives from Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore, we've identified the following possible devices (ph) for the quarter: Lover's Leap, which is a sandstone arch formation on the Lake Superior shoreline; Chapel Rock; Miners Castle rock formation; (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 192 Pictured Rocks cliffs; Grand Sable Dunes; the Au Sable lighthouse. And we're hoping that we have a representative from Pictured Rocks on the phone with us. Our liaison is Susan Reece. Susan, are you with us? That's unfortunate, but if there are any comments from the committee with regard to what artists should consider for the Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore designs for Michigan, we'd love to hear them. Okay. So nothing to add there. I'll move on to Apostle Islands National Lakeshore in Wisconsin. Apostle Islands Lakeshore was established in 1970 to protect certain significant islands, shoreline, and light stations of the United States and their related geographic scenic, historic, and scientific values. The park includes 21 islands in Lake Superior and a 12-mile-long strip of mainline shoreline, encompassing over 69,000 acres, almost 40 percent of which are Lake Superior waters. The park lies within the heart of the ancestral and modern homeland of the Ojibwe people. The park features pristine stretches of sand beaches (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 193 and coves; spectacular sea caves; some of the highestquality stands of remnant old-growth upper forests in the Midwest; a diverse population of birds, mammals, amphibians, and fish; and the largest collection of National Register lighthouses and lighthouse complexes in the National Park system. Visitors to Apostle Islands enjoy a variety of recreational activities, including freshwater sea kayaking, sailing, boating, fishing, hiking, camping, and, in the winter, visiting the unique ice caves, accessible by walking on the frozen surface of the lake. Through informal discussions with representatives from Apostle Islands National -Islands National Lakeshore, we have identified the following possible devices for the quarter and would love to hear your comments on them: Devils Island Light Station, the Sand Island Light Station, a kayaker at the Mainland Sea Caves, Ice Caves, the Outer Island sand spit, and visitors at Julian Bay. MS. SOLLMAN: And we should have Bob Krumenaker with us from Apostle Islands. Are you (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 194 there, Bob? MR. KRUMENAKER: MS. STAFFORD: Yes, I'm here. Okay. Would you like to say a few words to our committee? MR. KRUMENAKER: participate in this. Pictured Rocks. Well, we're delighted to You heard a little bit about The two parks are somewhat similar and, frankly, if you had any questions, I may be able to answer those about that park as well. And we clearly want to distinguish between the two, as they're successive national lakeshore (inaudible). I will also say I have the great pleasure of being the Acting Superintendent at Everglades National Park last year when that quarter was released, so I've been through at least some of this before (inaudible) experience. MS. STAFFORD: one offer. Okay. So we have a two-for- If any committee members have questions about either Pictured Rocks or Apostle Islands, we have someone on the phone that could answer those. Any comments from the committee about things the artists should consider for these quarters? (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 195 MS. LANNIN: Is that on? No? I would like to ask our -- oh. Is that on? Okay. I would like to ask our representative, would -- how do you feel about having the light stations depicted? I mean, we have light stations from Pictured Rock, and obviously you wouldn't want to be in competition with them, so would you or would your people have a special request? MR. KRUMENAKER: My guess -- and here's where I might be stretching a little bit beyond -- I think the most iconic thing in Pictured Rocks are the rocks themselves. MS. LANNIN: Right. MR. KRUMENAKER: I was surprised, frankly, when it came down to me as that was the choice there. But if it was the choice there, it probably shouldn't be the choice here. We do have something that April did not read. We've got two of the light stations that we're recommending. They both are in very scenic locations, so we would actually recommend, if that was the choice, not just be the building, but be the building on top of the geology (inaudible) particularly unique (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 196 setting. But we're open to discussion. here are very unique. The ice caves Something else that we had offered that didn't get passed on is there's some really amazing aerial views of the matrix of islands out in the lake. That's a possibility (inaudible) place. I think any of these are acceptable, but I do agree with having -- most parks have light stations. Most parks have rock formations. That probably isn't the best way to go. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Erik? MR. JANSEN: In the description of the national lakeshore in Michigan, Pictured Rocks, maritime historic resources are mentioned. Can you give us a little bit of history that might have some tethers for some ideas? MR. KRUMENAKER: That's where I may be going a bit beyond my knowledge of Pictured Rocks, but they have this one lighthouse and this one Coast Guard life-saving station. I don't know their origins in terms of years, but I'm pretty sure they're both 19th (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 197 century. And where both parks have a somewhat similar story is that we were both in the early stages of the settlement of Lake Superior when there was a lot of day (ph) shipping for iron ore, timber (ph), and copper going out of the Upper Peninsula, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota. So these light stations and these (inaudible) were much more important more than a century and a half ago than they are today. MR. JANSEN: I might charge the Mint to, before you publish these to your authors, to maybe augment this with a little bit of historical perspectives so we get a few narratives there that might bring in some kind of verbs as opposed to strictly nouns in the briefing here. Regarding the Apostle Islands, you mentioned a diverse population of birds, mammals, fish, amphibians. Recently we've had Mark Twain -- we had a frog on a coin, I think, and -FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. JANSEN: two tomorrow. Uh-huh. -- we may look at a turtle or I don't know if collecting animals on (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 198 coins is a big trend, but would there be any notable fauna that we should add to the list? MR. KRUMENAKER: Probably nothing that's unique (inaudible), to be perfectly honest. We don't -- we have wolves in both parks, although it's not what either park is best known for, and there is another park, Isle Royale, up here which is better known for wolves than we are. Both parks have bald eagles, ospreys, and very attractive birds, but nothing that's even unique. Probably the closest thing that we would have unique, but it wasn't really on our list, is the piping plover, which is a shorebird (inaudible). here in Apostle Islands. Rocks. And that's I don't know about Pictured But I think this is probably not the best place for (inaudible). MR. JANSEN: Thank you. MS. LANNIN: I'd like to ask a question. do know that people collect coins (inaudible) for certain people, but I would like to know if these lighthouses are still actually operable. MR. KRUMENAKER: Yes. I'll speak for (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 I Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 199 Apostle Islands. I know for sure we have more light stations than any other national park in the country, and all but one still has active aids to navigation, either in the tower or adjacent to the tower. Probably none of them are really still essential for navigation, but the Coast Guard does maintain those lights, and so that is a very important part of the (inaudible). MR. JANSEN: How many would there be? MR. KRUMENAKER: There's nine standing light towers in the park, which are in seven distinct locations. towers. Two of these places actually have two And, in fact, the newest addition of a lighthouse to the National Park system happened here at the Apostle Islands with a Congressional Act last December. It's a light that was constructed in 1915, so we celebrated its centennial by adding it into the park this year. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Well, I like the idea of something built a century ago still providing what's necessary for people who need it, so I think -MR. KRUMENAKER: I will point out, though, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 200 that that's actually the youngest one in the park. MS. LANNIN: What's the oldest one? MR. KRUMENAKER: MS. LANNIN: 1856. All right. Well, thank you very much. MR. KRUMENAKER: MS. LANNIN: guess. You're welcome. I'm a fan of lighthouses, I Heidi, you had a comment? MS. WASTWEET: Just a quick comment to repeat advice that we've given in the past for these programs. A quarter is not a postcard. Many scenes from these parks that I see online are absolutely spectacular photographs of these wondrous scenes of nature, and on a coin it doesn't translate. As we've seen with, for example, the Arches National Park, sometimes rock formations do work on coins if they're done correctly and simply, without trying to put in too much distant landscape. So just be cautious in that and try to focus in on solid objects, like unique floral fauna, lighthouses, (inaudible) sort of thing. MS. STAFFORD: That's it. Any more questions for (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 201 Mr. Krumenaker? Thank you so much for being with us. We really appreciate it. MR. KRUMENAKER: You're quite welcome. Thanks for having me. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. Moving on to Voyageurs National Park in Minnesota, Voyageurs National Park was established in 1975 to preserve, for the inspiration and enjoyment of future generations, the outstanding scenery, geological conditions, and waterway system, which constituted part of the historic route of the voyageurs who contributed significantly to the opening of the Northwestern United States. The rocks, which make up the park, tell the oldest story. As part of the Canadian Shield, these 2.7-billion-year-old rocks form the core of the North American Continent and were only exposed 10,000 years ago by significant glaciation of the region. Mile- thick sheets of ice scraped their way across the landscape, exposing the rocks and scouring out future lake basins. This combination of glacial activity and old (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 202 rocks tells the story of continent creation and shaping. The park protects over 200,000 acres of iconic Minnesota Northwoods lake country, a third of which is water. The combination of rocky shorelines, the meeting of the southern boreal and northern hardwood forests, and the open water creates a distinct home for bald eagle -- bald eagles, loons, moose, and wolves. Voyageurs is best experienced from the water. Traveling through the park by boat allows visitors to travel back 200 years to the time of the fur trade. The voyageurs traveled these same waters in 26-foot birch-bark canoes, transporting furs and trade goods throughout the interior of North America. Through informal discussions with representatives from Voyageurs National Park, we've identified the following possible devices for the quarter: Grassy Bay Cliffs, Anderson Bay, Kettle Falls Hotel, and Ellsworth Rock Garden. We're not sure, but we're hoping that we have a representative from Voyageurs National Park with us on the phone. Is anyone there from Voyageurs? (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 203 No? Okay. Any comments on this one? MS. LANNIN: Any comments on Voyageurs or -- MR. JANSEN: I canoed there several times in my youth, and I think a visit there would reveal the following experiential ideas. If you go to Voyageurs, there is one activity that is unmistakable and everpresent, and that is canoeing. And the canoe is a subject of a -- what's become an iconic Canadian coin recently with a -- and I'm seeing nodding faces -- with the (inaudible) the present and the past. taken. Unfortunately, that idea's been Fortunately, there are many more ideas out there (inaudible). So I would argue canoes, everything about canoes, the Northern Lights, the howl of a wolf, the garb of the voyageurs. These are all ideas I'd put out there. MALE SPEAKER: it. (Inaudible). MS. LANNIN: Go ahead. MR. JANSEN: I don't remember. I read about all of this. FEMALE SPEAKER: I read about I saw it (inaudible). Any other comments? (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 As Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 204 someone from Minnesota, I'm just saying please do not use a mosquito, which is also known (inaudible). MR. JANSEN: See, that (inaudible). FEMALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible), you know, one- third of Minnesota is lakes; the other two-thirds are mosquito carcasses. Strike that from the record. Okay. FEMALE SPEAKER: comments? Anybody else have any (Inaudible) -MR. JANSEN: I have a video of mosquitos in Alaska to show you. MS. LANNIN: Ooh. MR. JANSEN: Yeah. MS. LANNIN: All right. Let's move on to something a little warmer, a little sunnier, in Georgia. MS. STAFFORD: Seashore in Georgia. Cumberland Island National Cumberland Island National Seashore was established in 1972. It maintains the primitive, undeveloped character of one of the largest and most ecologically diverse barrier islands on the Atlantic Coast while preserving scenic, scientific, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 205 and historical values and providing outstanding opportunities for outdoor recreation and solitude. Cumberland Island contains a rich concentration of cultural resources that recount 4,000 years of human habitation and include a remarkably -a remarkable diversity of ethnic and social backgrounds. With almost 18 miles of pristine beach and one of the largest oak maritime forests remaining in the United States, Cumberland Island provides an unparalleled visitor experience. Cumberland Island National Seashore protects the largest designated wilderness area on the East Coast barrier island. The island's physical location provides visitors opportunities to experience outdoor recreation in an uncrowded, undeveloped setting. Moreover, this isolation helps to preserve and protect the island's fragile nature and cultural resources. Through informal discussions, we have identified the following possible devices for a Cumberland Island National Seashore quarter: oak forests; beach and sand dunes; salt marsh; sea turtles; shorebirds, or wading birds; Dungeness Ruins; (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 206 chimneys; the first African Baptist church; and Plum Orchard Mansion. I'm hopeful that we have a representative from Cumberland Island National Seashore with us. Gary Ingram with us? Okay. Is We'd love to hear the committee's feedback on this quarter's design. MS. LANNIN: I guess I have a question. In a former life, I thought I could play golf, so I was -- I was somewhere in the shores of South Carolina or along one of the barrier islands, and one of the things that I noticed was that they -- the buildings that they built, especially the early settlers, were actually built out of the shells off the shore and had, as a result, a really distinctive look. And so I'm not sure what the first African Baptist church looks like or what Plum Orchard Mansion, how that might be (inaudible). I would also wonder if those islands had permanent residents so they really, truly are barrier islands, because, you know, the Outer Banks, North Carolina are littered with, you know, mini-mansions that he people can rent, and so I just didn't know if this was really kind of (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 207 out there. MS. SULLIVAN: Well, at this point, it's a national park, yeah, so there's nobody living in the national park. I believe -- and I hope I'm getting this right -- Plum Orchard Mansion was actually built when a family lived out there. MS. LANNIN: MS. SULLIVAN: Okay. And so that is a beautiful old mansion, but (inaudible) national park. MS. LANNIN: Okay. So the entire island, then, is the national park, not just part of it? MS. SULLIVAN: MS. LANNIN: I believe so. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. And obviously when -- we'll have design kick-off meetings with the artists who are assigned these quarters, and we'll have representatives from the parks there to answer their questions and such, but -MS. LANNIN: MS. STAFFORD: Okay. -- for sure we -- any commentary from the committee, we'd love to (inaudible). (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 208 MS. LANNIN: comments? Anyone else have any other Here's another (inaudible) opportunity. MR. JANSEN: You know, for a -- for a beautiful place like this that just fits the template of many similar beautiful places like it on the East or other coasts, I'm looking at phrases about 4,000 years of human habitation, iconic discoveries, and (inaudible) that statement. I've spent enough time in Florida and the coast there to have a visual of this thing, and I think it'd probably be a disservice to just have an overhead view of a hurricane. But, I don't know, seems to be -MS. LANNIN: MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Next to last? Block Island National Wildlife Refuge in Rhode Island is located 12 miles off the southern coast and sits on a terminal moraine shaped by glacial till deposits, creating rolling dunes. Totaling 134 acres, the refuge is distinctive because the staff worked closely with other conservation organizations in an effort to (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 209 protect the land. One partner, the Town of New Shoreham, operates the adjoining North Light, the island's first lighthouse built in 1867. It has an interpretative display highlighting the importance of barrier beach habitat and the protection of the piping plover and other migratory shorebirds. Block Island National Wildlife Refuge is a critical migratory bird stopover point on the Atlantic Coast. Fruit-bearing shrubs provide essential food for more than 250 species of birds that come to rest there. These wild lands are also known internationally for spectacular birdwatching and provide a breathtaking walk along the barrier beaches. Through informal discussions with representatives from Block Island National Wildlife Refuge, we've identified the following possible devices for the quarter and, of course, are hoping to hear some ideas from this committee: the North Light lighthouse and piping plovers. So hoping we have a representative from Block Island with us. Island with us? Is a representative from Block Okay. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 210 MS. LANNIN: MR. HOGE: Does Rhode Island -(Speaking Spanish). MS. LANNIN: Robert, you're speaking Spanish. MR. HOGE: I'm going to put it on mute now. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. MALE SPEAKER: MS. LANNIN: Okay. Bad day for April. Well, I think we have an opportunity for lots of distinctive lighthouses. don't have a problem with that. I Some people might, but I think that they were their own prominent style of architecture at the turn of the century, so … MR. JANSEN: Madam Chair? MS. LANNIN: Yes? MR. JANSEN: There was an idea that came out of the mind of a child in the UK which manifested into a set of -- and I'm sure Donald or Laura could probably add in to this, and maybe (inaudible) -manifested itself as about a half a dozen coins that the British Mint produced and together made a collage of a single image. MR. URAM: The crest -They just did that. It just came (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 211 out. MALE SPEAKER: MR. URAM: Oh, yeah, they did. I have a picture of it (inaudible). MALE SPEAKER: MR. JANSEN: Yeah, they did. The point here -- and this perhaps is too big of an idea, too big of an idea for the legislation, too big of an idea for the mintage process, and maybe too big of an idea for any one artist to tackle, but we were -- we were admonished that there was a lot of water coming in these five images, and they're five wonderful aquatic -- pick the word you want -- national assets here. I would challenge an artist out there to come with a unifying idea and present it with the five ideas, if only to challenge us to take a really big bite here. MS. LANNIN: All right. Thank you. Well, I'd like to take a five-minute recess (inaudible) necessary and we will get -- how about a seven-minute recess (inaudible)? (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.) (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 212 MS. LANNIN: All right. So the next order of business will be the World War I coin, and I would like to turn it over -- this is a jury (ph) design -and I would like to turn the meeting over right now to Greg Weinman. He's going to explain the voting process. MR. WEINMAN: Sure. So this is the election of jurors from the CCC (ph) just from the (inaudible) 2018 World War I American Veterans Centennial Commemorative Coin. On December 16th, 2014, President Obama signed into law the World War I American Veterans Centennial Commemorative Coin Act. This Act directs the Secretary of the Treasury to issue in 2018 $1 silver coins in commemoration of the centennial of America's involvement in World War I. This law includes a unique provision, under which the designs for the coins will be selected by the secretary based on the winning design from the jury compensated (ph) design (inaudible). The expert jury will be chaired by the Secretary of the Treasury or his designee and will consist of three members from (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 213 the CCAC, who shall be elected by such committee, and three members from the Commission of Fine Arts, who shall be elected by such commission. This past July, representatives from the Mint and the chairperson were charged with facilitating the election of three expert jurors for this effort of the CCAC. It was determined by Mint counsel -- that'd be me -- that to be eligible for election to the jury, a CCAC member must have sufficient time remaining in his or her term on the CCAC to complete the effort, until the fall of 2016. This past August, we reported that six eligible members have expressed an interest in serving on the expert jury, and the Chair requested that each member review the list of candidates as well as paragraphs submitted by each describing his or her interest in this opportunity and any special qualifications he or she would bring to the task. The Chair requested that each committee member identify two individuals for whom they would like to support, excluding themselves. And, as the chair was an eligible candidate, she requested that (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 214 (inaudible) be sent via email to the Mint liaison, Bill Norton, and to myself, Greg Weinman, by September 3rd, 2015. With all the preferences submitted, the three candidates with the most support are Heidi Watsweet, Donald Scarinci, and Mary Lannin. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Greg. At this time, I would like to entertain a motion to formally elect Heidi Watsweet, Donald Scarinci, and myself, Mary Lannin, as the three members from the CCAC to serve on the World War I Commemorative Coin expert jury. MR. SCARINCI: MR. MORAN: So moved. Second. MALE SPEAKER: All -- is there any discussion? MS. LANNIN: Is there any discussion for the record? MS. SOLLMAN: MS. LANNIN: Yes, I have -- MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Yes, Jeanne? I have a question that we don't have -- it seems like we don't have an expert (inaudible) military activities -- do you know -- on (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 215 this committee? MS. STAFFORD: that. So I can actually speak to Much as we do with any program that goes through the regular review, we work with the liaisons to identify a subject matter expert to provide that historical expertise. MS. SOLLMAN: Yeah, because that -- MR. WEINMAN: Yeah. MS. SOLLMAN: I was worried we don't have, like, an historian, like -- unfortunately, Mike Moran is (inaudible). MS. STAFFORD: Understood. So we'll make sure that the liaison with whom we work has a historian available to the jurors for any questions and to provide feedback. MR. WEINMAN: another way. And we had -- talk about that There's nothing that says any other members of the CCAC cannot consult with the members of the jury. And certainly -- the jurors are certainly welcome to seek the guidance and the consultation of the other members of the CCAC, including the member especially qualified by his education and experience (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 216 in American history. MS. SOLLMAN: MS. LANNIN: Yes. The other thing is the three members of the Committee on Fine Arts, I'm not sure who they are or what their background is. MS. SOLLMAN: MS. LANNIN: MS. SOLLMAN: Exactly. I -- So --- understand that. Yeah, I understand that clearly, but, you know, I was disappointed that we didn't see (inaudible) on here, because I think he's a valuable historian to us now. MS. LANNIN: Well, we can certainly ask for consultation. MR. WEINMAN: And the other thing I might mention is although (inaudible) entirely -- there isn't (ph) legislation -- it's possible that there could be other similar juries -FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. WEINMAN: Yeah, exactly. -- for the (inaudible). FEMALE SPEAKER: Exactly. But when we do -- if we do have -MR. WEINMAN: Uh-huh. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 217 FEMALE SPEAKER: -- similar juries, then, you know, maybe our committee members would think to those issues that would be important. MS. LANNIN: Any other discussion? Okay. All -- I'd like to call the question -- all those in favor, say "aye." ALL: Aye. MS. LANNIN: Opposed? MALE SPEAKER: MS. LANNIN: Aye. (Inaudible). Okay. Then the motion carries. FEMALE SPEAKER: MS. LANNIN: Thank you. portion of the meeting. tomorrow. Congratulations. This concludes this We will resume again We have -- we're in recess. We have another administrative meeting, which begins slightly earlier, at -- can you refresh me on that (inaudible)? MALE SPEAKER: 8:15. FEMALE SPEAKER: 8:15. FEMALE SPEAKER: And then a very special end of day around noon tomorrow (inaudible). So recess. (Whereupon, at 4:09 p.m., the meeting was (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 218 adjourned.) (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 219 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, ERICK MCNAIR, the officer before whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby certify that the proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my direction; that said proceedings are a true and accurate record to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. ERICK MCNAIR Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia My commission expires: Notary Registration No.: (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 220 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER I, MARY E. YOUNG, do hereby certify that this transcript was prepared from audio to the best of my ability. I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to this action, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. October 14, 2015 MARY E. YOUNG Transcriptionist (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 221 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION I, WENDY C. CUTTING, hereby certify that I am not the Court Reporter who reported the following proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a true, correct, and complete transcription of said proceeding. ______________ October 14, 2015 ________________________ WENDY C. CUTTING Transcriptionist (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 222 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION I, SARAH VEACH, hereby certify that I am not the Court Reporter who reported the following proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a true, correct, and complete transcription of said proceeding. _________________ ________________________ October 13, 2015 Sarah Veach Transcriptionist (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/7/15 223 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION I, KAREN EHATT, hereby certify that I am not the Court Reporter who reported the following proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a true, correct, and complete transcription of said proceeding. _________________ ________________________ October 13, 2015 KAREN EHATT Transcriptionist (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 1 DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY UNITED STATES MINT CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING On October 8, 3015 At 9:00 a.m. 801 9th Street NW Washington, DC 20220 (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 2 P R O C E E D I N G S MS. LANNIN: Good morning. here, Michael, Gary, Donald? Okay. Everybody I would like to call the Citizens Advisory Coinage Committee back to order. Is my mic on? UNIDENTIFIED: Yeah. Citizens Coinage Advisory. MS. LANNIN: Good morning. Okay, we’ll start again. Okay, there we go. Good morning. This meeting of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee is called into order. Today the Committee will review and discuss the candidate designs for the 2017 American (inaudible) program and the 2017 Lions Club Century of Service Commemorative Coin Collection. of the press that are here? on the phone? Are there members Good morning. Anybody Do I hear anyone on the phone? And we have two of our colleagues today that are on the phone with us, we have Robert Hoge, still in Spain, and Tom Uram back in Pennsylvania. MR. WEINMAN: UNIDENTIFIED: Tom, are you on the phone? He was. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 3 MR. WEINMAN: Tom? And Robert are you on the phone? UNIDENTIFIED: Do we have a phone? MR. WEINMAN: I don’t think so. MS. LANNIN: He was on the phone upstairs. MR. HOGE: Hello, this is Robert. MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: Good morning. Hey, Robert. And Tom are you on the phone? MS. STAFFORD: He went to Doug’s house. MR. WEINMAN: It appears that he’s not on the phone. UNIDENTIFIED: Excuse me, it was Doug? MS. STAFFORD: It was Doug, he changed the number. call him. Because if he was on here I didn’t I think it continues over. MR. WEINMAN: MS. STAFFORD: agenda. (inaudible) Yes, so the top of the Yeah, for the public reading. UNIDENTIFIED: (inaudible) and they don’t ask each other. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 4 MS. LANNIN: So we’re calling Tom Uram to -MR. URAM: Tom present. MS. STAFFORD: MS. LANNIN: Okay, we got him. There we go. MR. WEINMAN: Greg Weinman. Tom, good morning, this is Can you send me an email right now, we have communication that way? MR. URAM: Will do. MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Okay. So Ms. Stafford is there any announcement that you would like to make at all? MS. STAFFORD: Only that in reviewing the America the Beautiful Quarters Program we’re going to start with Ozark and then start at the beginning of your packet and work our way through. MS. LANNIN: anything? Okay, anybody else have If not (inaudible)? MS. STAFFORD: Sure. The United States Mint America the Beautiful Quarters Program is a multi-year initiative authorized by public law 110- (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 5 456, the Americas Beautiful National Parks Quarter Dollar Coin Act of 2008. The Act directs the United States Mint to mint an issue 56 circulating quarter dollars with reverse designs emblematic of a national park or other national site in each state, the District of Columbia and five US territories. The coins obverse features the familiar restored 1932 portrait of George Washington by John Flannigan, including subtle details in the beauty of the original model. Inscriptions for the obverse are “United States of America” “liberty” “in God we trust” and “quarter dollar”. The reverse inscriptions are the name of the site and the host jurisdiction, “2017” and “e pluribus unum”. So starting with Ozark National Scenic River ways. obverse one. This is in Missouri. We’ll start with This design depicts a canonist traveling down a river with cliffs towering above the water on side. The park attracts visitors with its variety of recreational opportunities, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 6 including canoeing, swimming and fishing. Obverse two features a spiny softshell turtle peering above the water looking at a kayaker passing by. Obverse three depicts the overflow falls of Alley Spring near the Alley Mill. This spring is located at the foot of a picturesque limestone block. Obverse four and five depict Alley Mill, a steel roller mill built in 1894. This merchant mill was used to convert wheat into flour. Much of the original milling equipment is still in place and visitors to the park can tour the mill. This is obverse four, which is the first preference of the site and obverse five. Obverse six depicts a man canoeing down the river and coming upon a group of wild horses drinking by the river’s edge. Obverse seven features a white tailed deer and fawn near the river’s edge with Alley Mill in the background. Obverse 8 and 8(a) depict Alley Mill. This is obverse and obverse 8(a), which is the second preference of the site. We should have Dena Matteson, Acting Chief of Interpretation for the site with us on the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 7 phone. Would you like to say a few words, Dena, are you there? MS. MATTESON: you. Yes, I’m here and thank Yes, I appreciate this opportunity and appreciate all the designs that have been submitted to us. well. You know, we’re editing our suggestions as And I just wanted to reiterate that our desire is for us to have a coin that depicts both natural and cultural. And we feel that Alley Mill being our most iconic cultural site within the park does a good job of representing for us with its location right on the edge of Valley Springs. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you very much. So would you like to vote upon the Ozark designs with regard to that? MS. LANNIN: I would like -- are you prepared to begin? MR. JANSEN: No. MS. LANNIN: Erik, do you have other questions, anything from this table for us first before we vote? Do we have any technical questions for the personnel? (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 8 MS. WASTSWEET: Sorry. Could you tell me the second preference under 8(a). MS. STAFFORD: 8(a). MS. WASTSWEET: And when you say second, you mean the before it was that first one? MS. STAFFORD: They made two preferences and the order of their preferences are obverse four and after that 8(a). MS. WASTSWEET: MR. JANSEN: representative. Thank you. I have a question for the I’ve never been to the river ways. But if you were to compare it as a site of recreation versus a site of historical significance, how would you weigh those two dimensions here? MS. MATTESON: Well, you know, our mission is twofold to preserve both the recreational opportunities and the cultural aspect of the area. Our primary focus for our visitors probably is recreation for most of the year. MR. JANSEN: Thank you. And I assume that would be canoeing, fishing. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 9 MS. MATTESON: Yeah, and horseback riding and hiking. MR. JANSEN: Are there still wild horses there? MS. MATTESON: There are. MR. JANSEN: Wow. MS. LANNIN: Wow. MR. JANSEN: That is amazing, thank you. MS. LANNIN: Yeah, I believe that Mike Amazing, huh? Moran also has a question. MR. MORAN: representative. I have one question for the Could you explain the significance of the spiny turtle in that design please? MS. MATTESON: Actually, I’m not sure where that turtle came from. I think that was just an artist’s idea for representing the river. I don’t believe we submitted that as one of the symbols that would represent us necessarily. MR. MORAN: It’s not anything unique to the park at all? MS. MATTESON: MR. MORAN: No. Okay, thank you. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 10 MR. SCARINCI: Can I ask a question? I know you said this probably through something else. Alley Mill, that seems to be essential to you. Would that be -- would you like be unhappy if that was not on this coin? MS. MATTESON: I think that there would be some unhappiness with that, yes. Because Alley Mill has been such a key feature of the park and one of the locations in the park that people recognize as associated with us. It’s our most heavily visited site in the park. MR. SCARINCI: I was afraid of that. Okay, great. MS. LANNIN: Okay, Erik. MR. JANSEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. I think there’s probably a preference in this committee to avoid architecture on coins per se. And we appreciate your comments as to the significance of the mill. And my guess that’s going to be a bit of discussion in today’s reviews just as kind of a heads up. As I look at these designs I kind of drew a line, one side or other of (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 11 that thought. doubt about it. It is a gorgeous mill, there is no And I actually appreciated the dynamic of the water next to the mill and that was one of the things I highlighted on the design. I think in this committee we try to emphasize the importance of symbolic representation as well as literal. In the past we’ve tried to move away from pictures in metal. The coin is not to be a photograph necessarily, although sometimes it’s tempting to consider it that way. Because when you sculpt a photograph with grays and blacks and whites it’s difficult and different to translate in to relief. So I think you’re going to hear some comments along those lines today I’m guessing. But the point I want to make is when I look at these coins I try to find life, I try to find energy and I try to find action and I try to pay attention where the artist is steering my eye. Because in that active and subtle active assertion the artist sets his agenda or her story or plot. And so when I review these designs I look for life and action, hence my comment that I appreciate the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 12 water going into the mill. So when I look for life and action I see with the mill in particular I see designs four and five as being preferred. Having said that, I think there’s a danger in design four that creek could end up looking like a roadway to be quite frank. Because very often people affiliate buildings with the roads that service them. Neither four or five would be my choice, however. I would honestly prefer designs one and two on this page and it’s because of the energy and the spirit in design more than anything. And three it is a little more than generic in my mind and could be confused easily with something Candy Lands [ph], the Grand Canyon, the Sierras, about anywhere where you have fast moving water coming out of a geologically active area. My favorite is probably either design one or design two. two. I love the playfulness of design I don’t know where the artist is focused on the turtle. I do love the way the native space around the turtle defines his being under water versus the waterline. And, of course, I think that (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 13 waterline is a scoping challenge here. I like the energy, I like the playfulness of that. Design number one I like the way the artist has used the technique of very tight perspective along the -- is that the gunnel of the canoe, what is the side of that canoe? Along the side of the canoe. I think the key to the scope here is to get that wave just right, because that’s where the energy of this design, you can just feel that paddle about ready to go forward in the water and the kayaker pull himself forward or herself forward around and ahead. So those would be my preferences and those particular setting and the reasons for them. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: MS. SOLLMAN: Thank you, Eric. Jeanne. Thank you, Madam Chair. I’m looking at all of these designs and really I think the artists did a very good job. Especially rendering the architecture, especially in 8 and 8(a). I think those buildings are quite wonderful. However, when this design is shrunk down to the size of a quarter I think we’re going to lose the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 14 integrity that it has. If we were doing a metal and then I think all of this information would be preserved. When I look at number five we don’t have as much information in terms of the sighting. I think that it’s compromised in number four by the river, which Erik saw. I really believe it could be interpreted as a road. So we have to eliminated all of those. And going to the recreational aspect of this park, the canoes are great. I love the fact they’re introducing the wild horses in number six. However, when I look at number two, number two is so simple and beautiful and it is a recreational aspect with that, I believe it’s a kayak in there. The turtle soft shell is definitely native of the area. The artist did an incredible job, and I compliment that person, on actually making his feel believably moving that turtle through the water. So when I’m looking at this very simple design it says water, it says recreation in the kayaker, I’m thinking that as this piece and design is reduced to the size of a quarter we’re going to have a (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 15 beautiful quarter. river ways. A quarter that represents the I appreciate the rally behind the Alley Mill, but I can’t. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Madam Chair. MR. SCARINCI: Thank you, Jeanne. Okay. Donald. I’m kind of glad I’m going towards the (inaudible), you know, because that can save us a little time maybe. thinking maybe (inaudible). I’m Okay, I think, you know, I think it’s, you know, it’s unfortunate that it’s going to make them unhappy if we don’t give them the building, okay, the Alley Mill building. But I think we have to make them unhappy. And the reason I think we have to make them unhappy is because of the other four designs that we’re confronted with. We only have two opportunities in the group of five coins for 2017 to come up with really, you know, eye popping, you know, pretty coins. And one of those opportunities I believe is with this coin, you know, which is, you know, I completely agree with Jeanne, you know, and I recommend, you know, (inaudible) as well. You know, and I’ll make more general comments, but you (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 16 know, I mean number two is, you know, it’s just a, you know, really special coin and we haven’t done this before. So it’s kind of unique and amazing in three inches, you know, it’s going to be a coin of the (inaudible), so for 2017. So, yeah, they’re going to be nice. But, you know, here’s our problem. Other than this one and we have another opportunity for something pretty, you know, with the effigy reference, you know, the first six coins that we’re presented with the texture have real potential. So, you know, I’m assuming we’ll all be talking about the ones up here. go with one of those. So we’re probably going to And that has real potential to be a pretty coin. This one has real potential to be a pretty coin. The other coins for 2017 quite frankly are all monuments and buildings. I mean when I look at what else we’re looking at, I mean, you know, we’ve got work to do. We’ve got Fredrick Douglas, you know, we’re going to look at Ellis Island, you know, then we’re going to, you know, the same old same old, you know. There’s (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 17 nothing else in the grouping of five that’s going to really stand out and tell somebody buy me. So unless you’re already in the series there’s nothing, you know, if you’ve been collecting the National Park Series and you need to buy 2017, unless we come up with two or at least one of the coins that are pretty, we’re doing nothing to entice somebody who’s like looking at these coins maybe for the first time in 2017 to say, hey, you know, I want to buy that. You know, and when the new market spends a fortune on marketing dollars, you know, to get people’s interest for the first time for the series, you know, you want them to -when you get someone’s attention, you know, because you’ve spent the money to get their attention, you know, once you’ve got their attention you want them to see something good, right. And you want them to be inspired to click, buy it now. ultimately the goal. That’s Okay. So, and these coins the first time, let’s just be, you know, we now know, we’ve now gotten track record with these coins, they’re first seen (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 18 as a group. You know, when they’re offered for the first time to the public they’re seen as a group of five. I think the first time they’re offered is as a set of five. So you see them as a set of five. So odds are, you know, the first time buyer of the coins in the series is going to see them as a group of five and look at them and say, hum, you know, yeah, I think, you know, yeah, I’d like to buy that, you know, or not, you know. And then, of course, all the people like me and Gary, you know, we’re going to buy it anyway. So it doesn’t matter what they look like, I’ll buy the stupid Alley Mill even in 8(a), you know, even if we pick 8(a). Okay, so anyway, all that being said, you know, I think, you know, I’m setting up, you know, our person for the letdown that they’re probably not going to get the building on this coin, all right. So they could, you know, make sure they have their coffee and another donut, or whatever they need in the next couple of -- in the next half hour before we vote. That all being said, and all that preparatory work aside, first all, now let me just (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 19 say this. You know, this group of designs, you know, and (inaudible) in this quarters. But let’s talk about these right now since that’s what we’re dealing with. You know, I think, you know, you really, you know, once again, the artists you really, you know, on a roll, the artists are on a roll. You know, Erik is right about, you know, one, you know, you just did it. This is beautiful, you know, it’s just a beautiful design. You know, two is just that’s what I want to see, you know, I want to see two, you know. haven’t done that. And, you know, we I mean a lot of other countries and that’s been done obviously. it. We haven’t done It’s going to be an oh, wow, thing, it’s going to be cool, it’s going to be every kid is going to say cool. You know, I’m going to say cool. the one I’m going to vote for. That’s And three even though, you know, I really intend to, you know, there are rules, I know I have to like give encouragement, you know. And I want to give encouragement to move along. You know, I also, you know, as it goes, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 20 you know, if I had to pick in an Alley Mill, you know, if I was forced, you know, because if I was forced to pick an Alley Mill it would because of our other coins in the group that, you know, we could -- that we could make nice, it would probably be number four. You know, because you’re showing - - I like the way the artist, I like the perspective. I like the way the focus is on the movement of the water in that coin, I think it really works. I like the use of the upper half of the coin, you know, for the, you know, for the building. While the lower half emphasizes, you know, what the mill is, which is really a good place to get the movement of water. I also really like the perspective on six with the canoe and the paddling in back of. You know, so as a group, you know, as I group, I mean I think there’s four winners in here. And but I think the big winner is number two and I’m going to support number two for all of those reason that I just elaborately said. And I hope I didn’t set a pattern anybody else having to talk as long as I just did. So -- (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 21 MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Thank you. Gary. Erik, I’m promising not to talk as long as you did. Okay, you know, I’ll address my remarks directed to the folks from Ozark Airways. I want to talk about why is it we have designs on coins? Well, the primary reason is to indicate the nation of origin on the monetary value of it so it can be an item of commerce. But the other matter there’s an opportunity for nations to convey messages. And in this instance we have a program where we’re celebrating beautiful places in America, America the Beautiful Quarter Series. So when we think about the purpose of this program, purpose of the design on a coin the design is something that beyond the statutory necessities of the coin, the design is something that when it first hits a viewer’s eye you want it to pop and have a message that speaks something to the person. It’s a non-verbal message. Andin this case we want to convey beautiful things that make an impression. We want that first impression to be meaningful, to have impact, to be memorable. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 22 And I think you have an opportunity here for of the 56 quarter, I think, that will be produced in this series you have an opportunity here with one of these designs to be one of the best, if not the best that this series will produce. I’ve been through this whole series, I know what the other designs have been in the past. Many of them good, some of them not so good. number two, I’ll bring you to number two. This That’s the one that when you see it you have a very pleasant reaction. And that pleasant reaction will reflect on those river ways. Buildings, now let’s talk about the building and let’s talk about the size of the designs that we look at. designs. We like at eight-inch And I’ve talked about this many times. I think we get seduced by the size of the design and we marry ourselves to what we see on an eight-inch design. Now, number four, if you look at number four, I hope you have the same tear sheets that we have on the black background. When you look at the lower right-hand corner of the page we provide what (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 23 the image will really look like. And in this case the mill diminishes to something that for that moment of ah-ha where the citizen they think -- I’m not talking numismatics, I’m talking about commerce. Someone slides this quarter across the counter to a customer, the moment of ah-ha is lost because there’s nothing to ah-ha about, because there’s a lot of busyness going on and a lot of small things. Now, if you want something to go ah- ha and something that would be memorable and perhaps even -- there’s a program that’s run by an organization worldwide for coin of the year. If you want something that will probably get an nomination for coin of the year, which there hasn’t been anything in this series that would even come close to that, you’ve got that opportunity here. One from notoriety that would bring the Ozark river ways and that would be number two. spectacular design. This is The turtle is large enough that when you encounter it in commerce you’re going to have that ah-ha moment. What’s that all about? Wow, look at that. And then at the top it says (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 24 “Ozark River ways”. What a wonderful promotion for the river ways. So I would encourage you to rethink your direction with what you want to do with this quarter. You have a wonderful opportunity here and I’d hate to you see you go in a direction of a design that is so busy and muddled and so small that it really doesn’t have the impact that I think you desire. Especially when you have something like number two just waiting to happen. MS. STAFFORD: MR. MARKS: So then -- I’m done. MS. STAFFORD: to interrupt you, Gary. Pardon? I’m sorry, I didn’t mean I just know that our liaison does have to pop away to a meeting. Because you were addressing directly I wanted to reach out and ask if she wanted to make any comments to the committee prior to having to peel away. And let her know that we absolutely will make sure the transcript of the remaining comments get to her. Dena, are you still with us? MS. MATTESON: Yeah, I sure am. And I (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 25 actually have a little while. MS. STAFFORD: Oh, good. MS. MATTESON: I’m (inaudible) and I’m listening the comments and I’m being polite, that’s for sure. MS. STAFFORD: wonderful. All right, great, All right, so if you are able to stay with us a little bit more then we’re glad to hear that and we will keep going. MR. MARKS: Well, actually, you know what, I want to say one more thing. MS. LANNIN: You’re about to (inaudible), MR. MARKS: I get as much time as I want. okay. (Laughter) MR. MARKS: I’ll be brief. of the coin. This is my last meeting. I addressed the circulating aspects I want to address briefly the numismatic aspects. If you’re a coin collector when you look at the number two design in proof, a proof quality coin you have basically let’s call it in colors. They’re not really colors, but you have (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 26 frosts and you have polish. mirrored finish. A polish is like a And the raised elements itself will be frost and the recessed flat images or spaces will be polished. So in this case we’ll have the turtle raised, so that’ll be a nice white frosted finish and the water around it will be this wonderful mirrored surface. Now let’s think about that. are conveying water. We I mean this is such an awesome opportunity you have here, please don’t let it get away. The canoer of a boat he’ll be frosted and the sky behind the canoer you’re going to have that polished again. Spectacular. This will be the standout in the numismatic collection for this year 2017, you know, I’ll venture to say probably the entire series. So both the circulating side and the numismatic side you have a homerun here, I really encourage you to consider what your opportunity is here. And that’s all I have Madam Chair, thank you. MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Thank you so much Gary. And I was still shorter than (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 27 Donald. (Laughter) MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: even briefer. Michael. I’m going to be pretty much I struggle with these quarters from the day I walked onto this committee. And what I’ve learned is almost nothing in any detail works. You generally have to have one thing on your design and keep it as simple as possible. In that regard all of the mill images, even though they’re well done in the large sketches, basically disintegrate into a faucet mess on a proof coin and even worse on a general coin for circulation. And let’s face it the park wants these coins out in circulation and in everybody’s hands. So it’s not just the numismatists that know about the barter. And just you won’t be able to decipher the design elements of the mill on a quarter, no matter what on the general strike. So I eliminate all of those at once. Of the others clearly the turtle was the best. I give the kayaker, I wish it were in there, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 28 it’s just one element of the design that makes it a little more complex. It has a role to play on the quarter, but it’s just a little bit of complexity that we don’t necessarily need. vote’s going to be. But it’s where my And with that I’m done. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. MS. WASTSWEET: Heidi. Thank you. As a west coast resident I’m coming to this with fresh eyes, because I’m not familiar with this park. So I’m coming at this as I think a lot of people when they first get this quarter in their hand that they’re (inaudible) for the first about this wonderful resource. And I can imagine, as I’ve done my research and I see photographs of the mill in the photographs is spectacular. It’s a bright red historic building against a lush green background. That wonderful image is not conveyed in a coin. Especially on the size and without the color. If I were to get this coin in my hand I would just think it’s a house in the woods. my interest. And that doesn’t strike If I get this quarter in my hand and I see this turtle and the person interacting with (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 29 that turtle that makes me want to go to see this park. And that’s what we are really aiming for is to educate people about these resources in our country and get them to go visit and support those places. And a design like number two does that. It’s going to attract children and adults alike and make them want to go visit this park. wonderful design. It’s a It’s bold enough, it’s detailed enough to work at both the (inaudible) size and the larger size. I’m in strong support of number two. Design six I like the idea of the wild horses, but this perspective is not appropriate for the size of the quarter. up well in the hand. The horses will not show I think that is all that I have to say. MS. LANNIN: Thank you Heidi. Robert, would you like to join us? UNIDENTIFIED: MS. LANNIN: I guess not. Robert, are you here? about Tom? MR. URAM: Chairman. Okay, thank you Madam In looking at design too I felt the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 How Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 30 buildings on any coins does not say what the target says. However, I will vote with the turtle as well. And I would suggest to the (inaudible) and I know (inaudible) is to look around at the -there’s a numerous series of turtles that are out there right now and in water. very well protected. And the water is And the difference between the top of the water and underneath the water like in here it’s very well done. We haven’t necessarily gotten water (inaudible) just yet, but I think we’re close. And here would be a perfect coin to make that contrast and to really add some (inaudible) I think in the crystallization of the water be appropriate. So with that I think that the park would be really proud of it. Thank you Madam Chairman. MS. LANNIN: you available? Thank you Tom. Robert are I don’t hear from Robert. right, I’ll just add my comments. All All the turtle lovers out there I really, really like design number two. And I actually like the kayak on the top, because I think it shows hopefully man’s (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 31 latten impression on our national parks so that they’ll be there forever and ever for the rest of us to enjoy them. And there’s nothing impressive about the turtle, it’s just like, oh, another species, another nice day somebody’s enjoying the river where I live. presumably. He’s going to live a long time The kayaker is enjoying himself. I just like, I like that they’re both sharing the same water. And so my vote will be number two. And the liaison would like to make some final comments I have just been informed. So please go right ahead. MS. STAFFORD: Well, if you could check to see if she’s left. MS. LANNIN: said she was. Oh, I’m sorry, I thought she Do you have any further comments after hearing what our initial decision is? MS. MATTESON: No, I don’t. I do appreciate all the comments and it has given me a different perspective to convey for our management team and, you know, possibly share some of those points that you all have made about the ability for (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 32 the design to be interpreted and also to generate interest. And so I just appreciate being able to hear that part of the coin making process. MS. LANNIN: Well, I think from what my colleagues have said you have the opportunity to have just an incredible point in this series. other national parks will be jealous. And So with that -MR. WEINMAN: Robert is there. He just need to go (inaudible). MS. LANNIN: get. We have one more opinion to Robert. MR. WEINMAN: We’re working on it. Try again Robert. UNIDENTIFIED: I know how to do it. MS. STAFFORD: Oh, you do? UNIDENTIFIED: I know how to do it. MS. STAFFORD: Yeah, just one second. MR. WEINMAN: One second, Robert, we’re working on that and apologize. MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: It just isn’t easy is it? Technician stuff (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 33 (inaudible). MS. LANNIN: UNIDENTIFIED: Okay. This is still (inaudible). I’m sorry. MR. WEINMAN: We apologize Robert, we are -MS. STAFFORD: MR. WEINMAN: (inaudible) Yeah, we’re having technical issues and we don’t have a visual. take care of it. We’ll We apologize we may not be able to get your comments at this time. If there’s something you want to say you can send me an email and I will communicate it. MS. LANNIN: our discussion? Okay, are we finished with I think we’ve had a great group of decides in this group. So if we could turn in our votes. MS. STAFFORD: Madam Chair, may I start reading out Effigy Mounds? MR. WEINMAN: votes. Everybody please cast your And to Robert and to Tom please email your ballot at this time. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 34 MS. LANNIN: Yeah, that next. MS. STAFFORD: Moving onto Effigy Mounds National Monument in Iowa. Design one depicts an aerial view of an Effigy Mound in the shape of a bird. This particular mound is part of the Marching Bear Group, a collection of mounds located in the south unit of the monument. Designs two and three depict aerial views of Great Bear Mound, the monument’s largest mound. three. This is design two and Designs 4, 4(a) and 4(b) depict variations on an aerial view of three Effigy Mounds that are parts of the 15 mounds that comprise the Marching Bear Group. This is design 4, 4(a) and 4(b), which is the preference of the site. Design six features a bird effigy and a bear effigy against a depiction of the Mississippi River as seen from Fire Point Outlook. The inscriptions read “Air, water, earth and people”. Design seven and eight depict hands holding earth with a bird effigy above. Design eight also features the Mississippi River in the background and mounds from the Marching Bear Group. This is (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 35 design seven and eight. Designs 8(a), 8(b) and 8(c) depict the Mississippi River in the background the bird effigy at the top of the design. The lower halves of the design feature variations of the bear effigies. Design 8(a) also features the inscription “air, water and land”. 8(b) and 8(c). This is 8(a), Design ten depicts a bird effigy with a lush forest in the background. And we should have with us Jim Nepstad, Superintendent of the site on the phone with us. Jim, are you there? And if so, would you like to say a few words to the committee? MR. NEPSTAD: Yes, we’re here. Just wanted to let folks know that you are addition passing the designs around to staff, we also had a chance to show some of the preliminary designs at least. Travel members who are intending the travel consultation that was taking place in the park in early August. And so the parks program incorporates the (inaudible). MS. LANNIN: Do any of our members have any technical questions that they would like to ask (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 36 before? Gary. MR. MARKS: Madam Chair, it’s not really a technical question, but as we begin our review I just need to put on the spot, I request that our issue go first. I would really love to know what Heidi has to think about all this. MS. LANNIN: I was about to ask Heidi. MR. WEINMAN: I’ve got one question Madam. MR. MARKS: I don’t have a technical question, but I just really want to hear from her first. MS. LANNIN: Absolutely. MS. LANNIN: Michael did have one. MR. MORAN: I’ve got a quick one. Do, on the tenth one where they have the dark line, I assume that would be this. Can you really do that on a quarter? MR. EVERHART: I think it’s, yeah, I think it’s wide enough that we can polish that line that delineates the bird. I don’t think that would be a problem at all. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 37 MR. MORAN: Okay. MS. LANNIN: Heidi, would you like to go first? MS. WASTSWEET: Thank you. As a designer I can appreciate how very difficult this particular program was for the designers. It’s a beautiful site and an amazing resource that this country has in this site. But it’s so difficult to portray on the medium of the line. And we talked about to use for this some kind of vote before the planners did their designs. And we decided that it was appropriate if you would try to portray the mounds. As part of the process first you talk about an idea and then you put it down on paper and then you see what it looks like. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t. And again, I think that none of these designs truly meet the mark. As drawings, of course they tend to look different than the coins and actual size. I think it’s too difficult to really get the scope of what we’re looking at. attempts to see the trees from an aerial view I (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 The Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 38 don’t think we’re going to read very well the images. I think we’re going to look just soft and undetailed. So as a reaction to seeing these and I have some other ideas of what we can do to make them a little bit better. And I’d like to propose some of those ideas that came out of the discussion that we had last night. And Mike and I suggest that we give this another go around. not that this is a bad thing. Because and This is just a natural part of the process that sometimes it doesn’t always get it the first time around. Let’s have a discussion and I think go one more time around and see if we can do better. In researching I went to the website of the park and I saw a wonderful old map. And I’m going to hold this up for the committee to see a little bit. It’s a blue map with the sites on it. You can see where the mountain is, you can see where the mounds are. And there’s a little compass that was here to give the directions, so you get an orientation of where these are situated. And I (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 39 think this or a variation of this could work quite well. The addition of the compass throws as a sharp detail to the softer mounds, so you have a little contrast there. And it gives the orientation to the back overlooking at the site, physical site and carries the orientation of that site and then to see more of the mounds. I know we can’t fit them all in there, but I think we should have more of them in there to see how they relate to each other, the particular position that they are set, how they relate to each other. But I think there were very good with the March of the Bears. And then to see these dotted lines represent the mountains around them. And don’t be afraid to not fill and try to crowd every bit of the space on the coin. can have a little (inaudible). We Like we talked about yesterday, it’s okay to have some open space around these because Effigy Mounds is a large place. And it’s okay to have some space, to breathing space around the design on the coin. Because the mounds themselves are so simple when (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 40 you have this quarter right here in your hand those images are going to pop out, going to be very distinct. In the designs we’re looking at on the page there’s some texture added there, which is I’m going to presume is when you represent the grass. But if you are looking down from an aerial view at these mounds they’re so large we don’t really see the grass texture. So it actually confuses the size of what we’re looking at. You can’t see the blades of grass as a texture. And if it is simply even texture, you make that more fuzzier than they already are I’m concerned about the use of those textures. So having said that I would like to make a motion to ask the artist to please try one more time with those comments in mind to try to put in a compass rose, creativity, see a little more of the mounds. I don’t want to direct exactly what they do, but my motion is I would like the artist to take another crack at it MR. MARKS: MS. LANNIN: I second that. Gary’s a second. Okay. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Is Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 41 there any discussion about it? All in favor of Heidi’s motion of the sketches fine-tuned raise your hand. Oh, Erik, sorry. MR. URAM: Tom aye. MS. WASTSWEET: MR. URAM: Oh, he’s voting. MS. LANNIN: Okay. This came in as a vote. Tom aye. MS. STAFFORD: favor aye. This is a question. Tom is an aye, okay. All in So Tom three, the motion passes. So the sketches will go back to their department. MS. STAFFORD: We received your motion that we would like the sketches to go back to your art department. And we will absolutely take that back for discussion. MR. NEPSTAD: Okay, thank you. MR. JANSEN: Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Yeah, Erik. MR. JANSEN: I think I feel a bit of an obligation in the wake of that motion to at least invite any comments, thoughts, help, inspiration from the committee members. Because I think to turn this back saying let’s do better, I think we (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 42 need to at least spend a moment or two exploring what better might be. prescriptive. I’m not trying to be Quite the opposite, I’m trying to open the vision here, if only to kind of remassage the artistic process. the representative. affinities here? And to that end let me ask Jim, are there any cultural Could we maybe back up in our artistic visioning here back up to maybe groups that might have an affinity here, their particular imagines, their particular characteristics? Maybe kind of vision quest this thing instead of maybe it on so literally as kind of geography. MR. EVERHART: We certainly have a lot of contacts with a number of tribes that are culturally associated with the place. If you wanted to incorporate some of that I could easily put you in contact with them. MR. JANSEN: I’m actually a native of Indiana and we have some mounds as well. And I know if I over project here in error, please correct me, because I don’t want to do that. But what I’m feeling here is maybe there’s an opening, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 43 an opportunity to jump off from the -- if these mounds are at all similar to some that I have experienced in Indiana and Illinois there’s a sacred element here. And when you enter that realm lots of things become relevant and possible. that’s a dimension that could come here. Maybe I understand that there’s uncertainty about historical record here, which makes it perhaps a little difficult to be sure. I’m trying to just brainstorm here. MS. LANNIN: Well, I’d like to make a comment very much along the lines that Erik was saying. In some ancient cultures in Europe archaeoastronomy is very important in the place in the temples. So I’d like -- MR. JANSEN: Yeah, it may very well be when you’re at the mounds the story is not on your foot, but overhead. MS. LANNIN: Exactly. And so I would like, it’s sort of a two-part question, what tribes have been associated with the mounds in this area that archeologists think actually built them. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 44 Especially if they have any symbols, modern day symbols that may match up to the older symbols that we’re seeing in these mounds. And also, you know, I like Heidi’s idea of the compass rose in terms of positioning. For all we know birds can by flying as an earth star. And that might mean -- MR. JANSEN: false inspiration here? MR. NEPSTAD: complicated story. Jim are we coming in under I mean -No. It’s kind of a I mean there’s not an individual tribe associated with these mounds. If you go far enough back in time many of the tribes that we consult with, you know, tribes that are now separate physical entities were actually part of a larger people, sharing a common language even. so, you know, I can’t just point to the whole And nation in Wisconsin, for instance, and say, you know, talk to them, the Iowa tribe, I think two different Iowa tribes are associated with it as well. And back when the mounds were built there was no difference between what we think of as separate tribes. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 45 And so it would be necessary to have conversations with several tribes. There probably are some archaeoastronomy connections. As a matter of fact, you know, I strongly suspect and, you know, this is my personal feeling, but I strongly suspect that the Marching Bear route is actually modeled after what we think of as the Big Dipper. MS. LANNIN: Ah. MR. NEPSTAD: The bears precisely matches the handle of the Big Dipper. interesting connections. Some really Now, whether there’s widespread acceptance among the tribes about these ideas, you know, they’re new ideas, (inaudible). MR. JANSEN: Jim, were you on the call as we were discussing the prior coin design? MR. NEPSTAD: MR. JANSEN: Yes, I was. All right. So when I say a successful design here is really where the dynamics of the small pound size a quarter meet the inspirational openings of the site. It’s really not about either one, it’s the meeting of the visual coins and the site itself. And it’s where (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 46 those two things meet. And maybe there are some ideas that might give us a little bit of zing, energy, eye appeal that is also appropriate and definitive. So I’ll leave it there. But I didn’t want the committee to turn this back without carrying our bit of the load here to get the job done. MS. LANNIN: Jeanne, it looked like wanted to speak. MS. SOLLMAN: this issue. Yes, I do want to speak to I’m learning more about Effigy Mounds as the meeting goes on. And I thank you, Mr. Nepstad, to allow us to portray this beautiful site. I think when we turn this packet back to the artist I’m going to just speak a little bit about what I found important in what we have received and what I think is more successful and not. Our representatives have been thinking that Fort Lee was their choice. And if I had to choose from all of these this would be my choice also. It’s clean. It’s not as much of a popup that I’d like to see in terms of being spectacular. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 47 But it’s a gentle representation of just a few mounds. And I think when Heidi was talking about putting more on a coin, we have to be careful not to put too much on this tiny little coin. So maybe choosing those three mounds was an appropriate idea. If we look at one, two and three there’s I guess the river is encompassing the name of the mound. I’m not sure what that empty space, that narrow space means. But I don’t think that that’s a very successful way to represent these mounds you have now. The text in here and it’s confusing and distorting. I think no text at all in that field is helpful. I think when we do the architectural renderings of the trees they should look like renderings of the trees. If you go back and look at the how architects communicate trees in designs there’s a little bit more information in terms of their branches and so forth, that you know that these are trees, not another mound. So in three I’m not sure if I’m looking at trees or mounds, but both are there. And these are little things that (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 48 you might think about while you’re redesigning or resubmitting. In the last group, six, seven and all the eights and tens, I don’t think the mound bird should be flying over the Mississippi. that just doesn’t work out well. Somehow I know that the Mississippi is important to you, but I don’t know if that’s the way we want to depict it. So with those ideas and suggestions maybe keeping it simply, again, keeping it simple. I love the idea that the Big Dipper is represented in the Marching Bears. I don’t think that that can be represented on a small coin, but it’s a beautiful idea. And I thank you, Mr. Nepstad for sharing that with us. That’s all I have. MS. LANNIN: comments? Does anyone have any other (inaudible) MR. HOGE: Hello, this is Robert. MR. WEINMAN: MR. HOGE: (inaudible) A couple comments. Having been a (inaudible) director in Iowa and having visited (inaudible) familiar there with the museums (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 49 and archeological people I’d say what impressed me really is the enormous size of these mounds. And this is something that’s not really well conveyed in these for coins. And also there the site is separated from the Missouri River by rather depressing large power vanes and surrounding woodlands. So it’s a little bit confusing to have images put into the context of what I assume must be a representation of the river too. I would tend to favor number 4(b), again, because it’s relatively open. (inaudible) convey, but it probably would be among the most powerful that could be shown when we reduce to the size of a coin. I’m wondering if there’s any way we could get a better sense of scape on these things. Perhaps changing the trees a little bit would help. But it’s difficult to get an idea of the size of these mounds from any of these pictures. That’s it. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Thank you. Oh, Madam Chairman. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 50 MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Yes, Tom. There have been a couple questions on how this might work on the different striking here. You know, the design being what it is how can that be achieved? (inaudible) or it’s going to be (inaudible) more well defined. And maybe when it goes back to the artist maybe that ought to be a big consideration. Because as we know some of the (inaudible) has just been too much and everything just kind of gets dissolved. So just a comment from Don on maybe (inaudible). MR. EVERHART: The thing I see on these, the way I would proceed is to show the relief of the mounds themselves. Actually have them built up a bit from the background with rounded edges. And maybe a lighter laser frosting in the background it to make it stand out. recommend on this. MR. URAM: I mean that’s what I would Because it would be -Well, I think to get the depth of perception that Bob was just talking about it’s really going to come down to how the striking occurs. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 51 MR. EVERHART: Yeah, and I think that to go that route would also be more true to what the designs are here. MR. URAM: Yeah, because I think some of those designs are going to, you know, I don’t think going back really much is going to happen. And how much different is it going to make, but really it’s going to come down to the process. But thank you Madam Chair. MR. EVERHART: I think this is a perfect chance to do some really nifty laser frosting. MS. LANNIN: Stacey, you have a comment? MS. KELLEY: Yes, just to add to what Donald is saying. We can pull up basically the high relief on those, really pull it up on this side of the coin while having the other side of the coin to remain low. mentioned a map. Earlier Heidi you had And as we were talking we did have some designs that were submitted and it really came down to coin ability. Because as we looked at this unless they try show, try to show this entire map to show the location of these, the size of them (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 52 to try to get down inside they just look like blobs, for lack of a better term. I’m saying? You know what So we were struggling with that. But as far as looking at 4(a) we could definitely probably relief on that and also do some things with the finish that could make those pop. The one thing that I would want to just make sure is to look at the scale of the trees, because you all mentioned this. Just to make sure that from the size of these mounds is that how is that in relation to the trees? Just to make sure that it’s really accurate, if you will. MS. WASTSWEET: more comment. And if I can just add one The tree on number two has some texture detail in that tree. You can see little branches and the little kind of trunks. That’s quite what I’m talking about in terms of an architectural rending of a tree. And if that was in the trees in (inaudible) I think we have the understanding it was a tree, not a mound. And therefore if those are trees that gives us scale those mounds are bigger than the trees. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 53 MS. KELLEY: That makes sense. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. MS. KELLEY: I mean I think that definitely makes sense in him doing that. I think we could definitely take those and move those, you know, do something like that. MS. SOLLMAN: Yeah. And, you know, maybe those branches would be different, a different texture or something that would highlight the fact that it’s a tree. MS. KELLEY: MR. EVERHART: Right. MS. SOLLMAN: You’re referring to -(inaudible) or some of the trees had lost their leaves. MR. EVERHART: But you’re referring to actual architectural drawings where they have these symbols of trees that they used from when you look down on them. And that’s exactly what I was -- MS. SOLLMAN: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that if you just change it would help to save the tree without going on a whole sculpting the tree. MR. EVERHART: Yes. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 54 MS. SOLLMAN: Just needing a -- MR. EVERHART: More just symbolic. MS. SOLLMAN: As a symbolic tree. MR. EVERHART: Because it’s a symbolic image to begin with. MS. SOLLMAN: Exactly, yeah. And then the frosting of the bear or on the mounds, which would make sense because now we have a different texture all together, tree from mound. I think we need to make that difference. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Jeanne. Heidi’s been patiently waiting for her turn. MS. WASTSWEET: Just briefly I wanted to point out that the design 4(b), which is (inaudible) does not have any indication for polish at all. So the proof version of this coin would have no polishes. And then of the designs that we are saying here, my personal preference would have been number ten. That’s the one that appeals to me of what we’re seeing here. MR. EVERHART: comment, Heidi. All right, just one And I know you realize this, but (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 55 the border would be polished on these too. MS. WASTSWEET: the border was raised. Well, sorry, I thought Is that just a (inaudible)? Isn’t it more raised than the frost? MR. EVERHART: MR. MARKS: MS. KELLEY: MR. MARKS: MS. KELLEY: MR. MARKS: They’re polished. They’re raised and frosted. No, not this one. Oh, I’m sorry. That’s polish. So there’s been a lot of discussion about the numismatic finishes and so forth. We know there’s going to be a couple, at least several hundred thousand or several hundred million of these made for circulation. And I guess I have a concern what those look like. Because we don’t have all of the same kind of tools to portray a design, just the strike that we have for the numismatic. So are these imagines -- I mean there’s not going to be any contrast. They’re just going to kind of be, for lack of a better way to describe it, kind of these lumpy indications on the coin. And so I was wondering what are we putting (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 56 out to the public? And so if Don or someone wants to comment on that I just don’t know what the answer is on that. MS. KELLEY: That’s something that we definitely have to look at. Yeah, as we’re looking at the die life and such as we’re manufacturing these for circulation. But we could in looking at this we do have the flexibility to do a couple of different levels of the frosting that would hold up. It’s not the preferred way, because it does not -- we don’t get the die life out of it. But that doesn’t mean that it can’t be done. MR. MARKS: Are you talking about circulating it, frosting with circulated coins? MS. KELLEY: talking, yes. Something that we were Which these are new, so -- MR. MARKS: Okay. I didn’t know you could do frosting on a circulated coin. MS. KELLEY: No, no, no, no. I’m sorry. That’s just -UNIDENTIFIED: MS. KELLEY: (inaudible) you mean? Yeah. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 57 MR. EVERHART: Yeah, just one other thing that just occurred to me. If I was going sculpt this I would actually put the texture in my hand so that where you see the darkness underneath these effigies, that would be, you know, more of a harder hitting texture and then the differentiation between the lighter of the part of raised mound. So that visually when I’m working on this I would see how it’s going to look and I wouldn’t have to count on, you know, what’s this texture or that one’s frosted. I would actually hand put the texture in myself. So that, you know, like I said, when I was in the sculpture phase I could fine tune to where I felt it was appropriate and then that would pop as much as possible. MR. WEINMAN: And again you’re speaking that would be relative to the circulating version of this. MR. EVERHART: Yes. MR. WEINMAN: Okay. All right, thank you. MS. LANNIN: Well, thank you everybody (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 58 for your input. MR. WEINMAN: Just to clarify. Do you want to expressly vote on this? MS. LANNIN: back to the artists. We have motions to send it But I have opportunities in my hand for the 2017 American the Beautiful Quarters Program, those that are national scenic river ways. Number one received 13 votes. turtle, number two, received 25. number three. number five. seven. Zero for eight. the turtle rules. this coin? Zero votes for Two votes for number four. One for number six. The Zero for Two for number And 8(a) received one. So Does anybody have any motions on Heidi. MS. WASTSWEET: I mean I don’t have a motion, but a suggestion that we could put the turtle on the screen processing. I would just suggestion that the upper part with the water and the canoe if that part were lowered a little bit so more of the turtle’s head was out of the water I think it would read better on the coin. Just a consideration for the art department to look at (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 59 that, not an actual motion. MR. JANSEN: (inaudible), but I was there was a little more at the top above water portion here. So you just addressed that even better. MS. WASTSWEET: And that would give a little more sky. turtle. MR. JANSEN: Yeah. MS. LANNIN: Okay. So we have the Hopefully we’ll have the turtle. MS. WASTSWEET: Hopefully we’ll have the turtle. MS. LANNIN: April. MS. STAFFORD: So moving on. I want to say thank you to our liaison from Effigy Mounds. appreciate you being with us. So moving onto the I Fredrick Douglas National Historical Site in the District of Columbia. Design one features Frederick Douglas giving a speech from a podium. Design two depicts Frederick Douglas meeting with Abraham Lincoln. As one of the foremost abolitionists Mr. Douglas met President Lincoln on three occasions in planning the role of African (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 60 American men both free and slaves in the prosecution of the war. Douglas recruited African American men for several regiments, including the celebrated Massachusetts 54. The President publically acknowledge Fred as his friend on the occasion of his second inauguration celebration. Design three depicts Frederick Douglas seated in front of his home in Washington, DC with the North Star shining above. It was the North Star that Douglas hoped to guide him to the free states of the north on his first attempt to escape from slavery. And North Star was later the name of his anti-slavery newspaper. Design four depicts Frederick Douglas seated at a writing desk with his home in Washington, DC in the background. the preference of the site. Design four is Design five and six feature two views of Cedar Hill, Frederick Douglas’ home in Washington, DC. And I believe we have with us Dr. Dr. Ka’mal McCarlin, museum curator of the site. McClarin are you with us? Dr. And if so, would you (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 61 like to say a few words to the committee? Okay, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: So do you have any technical questions about these coins? all right. Anything? Nothing, Why don’t we begin this discussion with the people furthest away from us. Robert are you there? MR. HOGE: MS. LANNIN: Yes, I’m here. MR. HOGE: Okay. MS. LANNIN: Hello. MR. HOGE: We can hear you. Okay. Again, with these we have a problem with representations of buildings, whether we want to do that. I guess that really is the site, but the (inaudible) is the important aspect in it. It was an important home, because it was his home. And I think, I guess for me number one is probably the best representation of him. He’s clearly, you know, delivering his auditory then, you know, gesturing. And I think it’s a powerfully accurate image of him. The others are all attractive, but it’s kind of hard to say, it (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 62 looks like a (inaudible) coin. I would vote for number one. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Tom are you with us? MR. URAM: Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. I tend to lean towards number one and number two. Three does have the house back there. I don’t think that the others would -- I know that it’s representative of a building and (inaudible) buildings. But I think the image in number one giving the auditory is great. And I also like number two, because Lincoln was always very popular and I think having Lincoln on this coin would be appropriate and another dimension for the Lincoln collectors out there as well. And I think it shows a lot of interest in history there. And I think I’m for number two and then I’d vote to number one as well. But I’m leaning toward number two or number one. I appreciate the preferred number four, but I don’t think that house is going to fit well the way it is on there on the coin and so forth. So I lean towards number two first and then (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 63 number one. Thank you Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thank you Tom. MS. WASTSWEET: Thank you. Heidi. I’d like to commend the artist, his drawings are quite nice. Design number three and four I think would be great if we were to make a larger coin, a congressional bill perhaps, or even a commemorative. But as a quarter I think these designs are too much for the pallet. I really like design number one, I think this is simple, straightforward. perspective. I love the We don’t often see perspective in figurative designs. I feel like I’m really standing in front of him, he’s looking right at me, he has emotion and gesture. All the things that I continue to emphasize here in the committee, gesture is so important. And this hits the nail on the head, this has the gestures and it’s appropriate for the size of the coin. well on the circulating and the proof. It will read I just couldn’t ask for anything more than this. Design number two I think I would not recommend this. I think the gestures are stiff. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 I Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 64 appreciate what it’s trying to do, but I see too much quality between the two characters, it doesn’t emphasize Frederick Douglas as the subject of the design. I see two men as the subject, rather than the core figure. So I would not recommend that of these designs. As far as five and six goes, just having the building by itself I think is too static, it doesn’t draw any interest. to know more about the coin. It doesn’t make me want Show my support to design number one. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Michael. MR. MORAN: I’ll be brief. design number one. I support The thing I want to do here is that he is speaking before a white audience, something that was certainly an exception in the times. I think that’s powerful. It presents Frederick Douglas as he is, as he would want to be known, as an equal human being. And it’s more than about the house, it’s about Frederick Douglas. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Erik. MR. JANSEN: Thank you Madam Chair. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 It Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 65 seems to me that talking about Fredrick Douglas ought to be about Frederick Douglas. It shouldn’t be about his house or even Abraham Lincoln, it should be about Frederick Douglas. So I think number one is the best portrayal of that. focus on Mr. Douglas. They Those are my comments. MS. LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: Thank you. Donald. I don’t think it can be about -- I think one and two are out, because this is the national parks commemorative coin series. It’s not the Frederick Douglas coin or the Abraham Lincoln coin or the Civil Rights Movement coin or anything else, or the slavery coin. It’s a national commemorative -- it’s a national parks commemorative coin, that’s what the series is. So you’ve got to, I mean like it or not, we’re stuck with the building, you know, in the coin. So that’s why originally when I was looking at these I said, you know, our two opportunities for art are those two coins, because the rest of these are buildings and statues. think we’re stuck with the building. And, you So I (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 66 know, I kind of ruled out one and two completely. And if the recommendation, you know, if the recommendation is number four I’m going to support number four. number three. So actually I think more so than And it’s obviously more interesting than number five and six. So once you eliminate one and two, which I really you have to eliminate for this particular series, I think we’re probably left with number four as the best in the group. (inaudible) MS. LANNIN: Thank you. MS. SOLLMAN: Jeanne. Thank you, Madam Chair. That was my question to the representative if we had them here, was do one and two satisfy the fact that this is a park? We’re celebrating Frederick Douglas in one and two as the person. That we have Frederick Douglas on the coin -- the other coins with the buildings, you know, scenic home, this whole thing to me is very confusing. And so is the building, is this a historical park? Do we say Frederick Douglas scenic home, is that what we’re celebrating, the building? You know, I think (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 67 Donald is a little bit correct there. MS. STAFFORD: Jeanne, we can actually have conversations with our liaison about that if you’d like her to pass on -MS. SOLLMAN: please? Oh, thank you. Would you Yeah, I’m confused about it really. MS. SULLIVAN: Sure. Yu know, I think as Donald said for them a big part of the importance is his home here, this is really celebrating his home in DC. Obviously Frederick Douglas is an amazing figure. But the park really thought that it was important to have as well rounded representation of both Douglas and of Cedar Hill, his home, because that is what their park celebrates. MS. SOLLMAN: Okay. Now, my next concern is will we represent Douglas and Cedar Hill in the report both of those imagines become very small. So if we’re celebrating the building and the park is it possible (inaudible) while I’m in here to go with six, well, either five or six, which is rendered quite lovely, they don’t look like it’s (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 68 the same building, but even if were made a little larger, just coming out more to the edges so we have a big building, something big there then I could accept one of those two, five or six. I’m not sure we need to have Frederick Douglas on the coin at this point. Thank you. MS. SULLIVAN: I just, just to add, the park did give me sort of a ranking of the designs, and number six was their next choice, but they didn’t officially make it a second choice. But it’s next on their list. MS. SOLLMAN: It’s a very good building. MS. LANNIN: Gary, do you have a comment before I got on here? MR. MARKS: No? No. Thank you, Madam Chair. It seems to be that we were given a packet with designs that met the specifications for this program, for the subject matter. Now we’re being told by members that maybe some of these designs are not legitimate. So I’d like some input from staff or people about whether or not one and two are legitimate designs for Frederick Douglas, what (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 69 did we call this, Frederick Douglas National Service. MR. WEINMAN: There’s nothing about the designs that raises the rule, the legality of the rules. The site, as the site is being honored obviously this program we would like (inaudible). How you wonder, how you -- the legitimacy is more a question for the committee than it is for counsel for the (inaudible). In other words I look at the design, we look at the designs from do they meet the statute or an authority. A great example would be we can’t have a head and shoulders bust on this, because the statute specifically states that we cannot have a two-headed coin and therefore cannot do a head and shoulders portrait. It doesn’t say that we can’t depict a site using symbolism or other devices that the artist (inaudible) feel are important to the site. And so in other words we move from -- the packet you have in front of you has been reviewed for accountability, it has been reviewed for appropriateness, it’s been reviewed for legality. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 70 Whether or not it’s a legitimate depiction in the sense that it means (inaudible) depiction is a matter of discussion of this group. Which is exactly the conversation we’re having. MR. MARKS: Thank you, Greg. That does bring to mind the quarter we did for New York. MS. SULLIVAN: Saratoga? MR. MARKS: Pardon me? MR. JANSEN: Saratoga. MS. SULLIVAN: MR. MARKS: Saratoga? Saratoga, thank you. For Saratoga we didn’t show the battlefield, we showed two hands passing a sword. So we can argue that that wasn’t legitimate because we weren’t showing the field. So I don’t see the problem here. I think this is a wonderful opportunity to celebrate the man who this site was made after. And I don’t know how you can get for a feel from the subject matter like celebrating the namesake. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Eric. MR. JANSEN: With all due respect, Donald, I always appreciate your perspective and (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 71 your expertise. However in this case I think this discussion has two causes for celebration. The first one being transcended of common sense or the lawyers in the room. And in that sense this is about the ideas of the man and the home he grew up in. It was little bit like the home I grew up in, so it should be about me. This is about a man, an order, a capable iconic human being who became a timely, at the time, if not iconic image of an emerging man who showed the world how wrong their limited thinking was. To turn this into a building is an abomination. And I think the only choice here has to be the preference of something symbolizing what the man stood for. My favorite is image number one. I think there might be a bit of an adjustment to the imaging if it gets selected. discussion. We’ll have that I think the iconic visual here when we just put a turtle on a coin for a wetlands or a mountainous geographical site I would argue the meeting coin, this coin has eye appeal and the message it was intended to carry forwards is (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 72 something about the iconic presence of the man. He’s not here and no one here was there in person at the time. So the best that we have quite frankly are images and representations. And I will use the word a shock of hair is what I think so many people who have an image of him will relate to. And I think image number one carries forward that familiarity that impact. I love the idea of image number two. I think it migrates the coin from the man to the issue of his day, which I think is the wrong direction to go. So my strong recommendation is for image number one. And I celebrate that as the second celebration today. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Eric. I have to admit that I really gravitate toward number as well, because when you close your eyes you think Frederick Douglas, that’s the face that I think of. Not necessarily as an older man. I think of him as more of the firebrand that he was when he was, you know, in his 40s. And then I listen to what Donald said, you know, this is a national historic site. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 73 So if you’re a site you need to go somewhere. And so I can understand then the preference that the stakeholder has in wanting to actually see the house. And to Jeanne’s point having Cedar Hill alone on a coin if we did bleed it out the image, you would have to have the full Cedar Hill. can’t just be part of it. It Can their preference of number four be done such that we don’t need to see all the house? foreground. And he’s not quite so much in the Do we know when Cedar Hill was built in relation to his age? MS. SULLIVAN: Because I have -I have all that information. MS. LANNIN: You do? MS. SULLIVAN: One of the things that I actually want to say, this wasn’t the house he grew up in. Frederick Douglas was a slave. He was born a slave and that’s, I think, a very important part of his story. his retirement. This is the house he built towards He built it in 1877, which is actually a big deal. I mean he was born a slave (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 74 and then, you know, in his retirement built a home. MS. LANNIN: Okay. So with that comment I think that as much as I like number one, the preference of number four is what I would personally vote for, because see he actually built a house. It was unthinkable probably at that time. So this is a shining accomplishment in his personal life. And it also gives us a site and a place to go to. So with that, unless there’s any other comments -- Heidi. MS. WASTSWEET: MS. LANNIN: Briefly. Yeah. MS. WASTSWEET: Briefly, excellent arguments on both sides of the subject. I can see both sides very clearly for representing the man himself versus his place in the park, the fact about the house, all great arguments. I come back to the pallet, but I think I’m still leaning toward design number one. Again, if this were a larger coin I would definitely vote for design number four. If we do fall on the side of the argument of representing the man and the building and we’re (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 75 between design number three and four, I would get this from a sculpture’s perspective. If this project hit my desk and I had to sculpture in this shallow relief, which one of these designs would I want to sculpt? And that would be design number four situated just in a way that is more conducive to the lower. four. So between three and four I go with But as a whole the packet goes I think I’m still leaning toward design one. But I will let the wisdom of vote hold the day. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. discussion, why don’t we vote? So no further While we’re voting would you like to read the subject? MR. WEINMAN: sheets. Please pass in your voting And with those not here would you please send me your ballot. MS. LANNIN: Okay, moving onto Ellis Island, Statue of Liberty National Monument in New Jersey. MS. STAFFORD: Design one shows an immigrant family approaching Ellis Island with the hospital building in the background. The man looks (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 76 forward with determination, a representation of Ellis Island as the island of hope. The woman looks back concerned that Ellis Island is also the island of tears where families are separated and individuals were denied entry into the country. The child represents the future growth and prosperity of the United States due to immigration. Design two depicts an immigrant woman approaching Ellis Island with the hospital building in the background. Design three features an immigrant family waiting on Ellis Island hoping to be granted entry into the United States. This design is the third preference of the site. Designs four, five and six feature years of the Ellis Island ferry building and its art deco aspire. The ferry terminal has been referred to as the happiest place on the island because those who made it this far had successfully passed legal and health inspections and would now be permitted to start their new life in the United States. design four. Five. This is And design five is the second preference of the site. And design six. Design is (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 77 the first preference of the site. Design seven and eight depict the Ellis Island Immigrant Hospital. The hospital was the first and one of the largest public health hospitals in the United States. Immigrants who did not pass the health inspection on arrival to Ellis Island were sent to the hospital and detained until they recovered or were deemed too sick to enter the United States and sent back to their home countries. Nine out of ten patients were cured and allowed to entered the United States. That concludes our designs, I’m sorry, seven, eight, nine. I’m sorry, seven there. with design eight. I apologize, we end And we should have John Piltzecker, Superintendent of the site with us on the phone. John, are you there? And if so, would you like to say a few words to the committee? MR. PILZECKER: I am. Good morning. We paid particular attention to ensuring that the buildings that were depicted in the various renderings were buildings that are actually located in the State of New Jersey. Some of you may know (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 78 that Ellis Island that has buildings that are in the State of New York and also buildings that are in the State of New Jersey. So the hospital building and the ferry building are both located in the State of New Jersey and we thought that was important, since this was a New Jersey coin. I’m very interested in hearing what the committee has to say. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. for the representative? Any questions Heidi. MS. WASTSWEET: I would like to ask the representative between designs number one and number three, which both feature families, can I basically ask why the preference was for number three over number one? MR. PILZECKER: depiction. Because it’s a happier People are looking pretty serious and ready to go, that’s really it. MS. WASTSWEET: Is there a desire to downplay the seriousness of the time? MR. PILZECKER: MS. LANNIN: No. Okay, thank you. Donald. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 79 MR. SCARINCI: question? John, can I ask you a This is Donald Scarinici and I actually I happen to live in New Jersey and I happen to have a law office in Jersey City and I go to Liberty City parking lot. So let me ask you this. In Ellis Island there’s an area where there are plaques, some personal plaques of families who, you know, immigrated through there. Is that -- would you say that was the most heavily visited site, the most heavily visited thing, the most heavily viewed thing on Ellis Island? When people go to Ellis Island what do they look at the most? MR. PILZECKER: When people go to Ellis Island they go to the main immigration building, which has the registry building, also called the Great Hall, which the building is the most iconic building of Ellis Island. I would not say that everyone goes to the Wall of Honor, which was installed in the 1990s during upon raising effort to raise private funds for the rehabilitation of Ellis Island. That is actually in New Jersey. main immigration building is not in New Jersey, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 The Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 80 it’s in New York. MR. SCARINCI: Now, how about the walkway that goes from Liberty State Park to Ellis Island, does that work or does that function, do you use it anymore? MR. PILZECKER: Well, I mean it was built in the 1990s to facilitate the restoration of Ellis Island. That’s a utility bridge, it’s used for deliveries, it’s used for ambulance service. It’s not a public bridge. MR. SCARINCI: Right. There’s a view from that bridge that’s, you know, pretty cool though if I recall correctly. I guess where I’m going is I really have to make a motion to get the designs on this. just can’t. I can’t vote for any of these. I And, you know, you can all vote it down, you can all vote the motion down. But I have no choice, I cannot, being from New Jersey I can’t let this stand. I think there’s so much you could do with Ellis Island. I think you could, you know, I think you could do close ups of registry books. I think you could do close ups of the wall with (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 81 names. I think you could do, you know, I mean I think you could get a wall of names. I mean I think you can do, you know, there’s that view from that, you know, that bridge, even if you go up close, you know, to Ellis Island and do it from the lower view, you know, you could depict, you know, the island itself, you know, from the New Jersey side, you know, with a view of Jersey City. And, you know, which, you know, shows past and present success. You know, the success of immigration and how immigration built America. I mean just look at Jersey City and look at the tall buildings and look at what’s going on, you know, and certainly from a New Jersey point of view, you know, my ancestors came into Ellis Island. So it’s a very important thing that, you know, people that came there and settled in New York, maybe came to New Jersey or came right to New Jersey. So I think it’s regionally very important. I really don’t think we got it, you know, by far. And, you know, I’m sorry, but you know, four through eight just don’t cut it for me. I mean I (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 82 just can’t live with it. a motion. So I’m just going to make It’s okay, you can vote it down if you want, but I’m just going to make a motion to, you know, to reject all designs and to request that we see new designs for Ellis Island. MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Is there a second? I’ll second. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Eric, any discussion? MR. JANSEN: Yeah, I’m going to kind of carry forth the fact versus the humanity in the story. Factually Ellis Island is a place. Physically there are buildings there that processed names that weren’t (inaudible). And from there transitioned to what really happened there, which is where lives were changed and livelihoods were created or destroyed. And I think that is the story more than the architecture. There are thousands of administrative buildings which rise or fall below the threshold of these buildings except for what happened there. And I think what happened here is the story here. So I’m actually really sympathetic with Donald’s (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 83 thoughts here. Because I think the time here might be better invested with the committee expanding the specification and the artistic charge here to bring a little more humanity and the story of humanity here. Because I believe that’s what Ellis Island really is. MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Gary, another comment? I seconded the motion. I didn’t want -- as someone who lives in this area and is very familiar with the island I wanted to give respect to his perspective. Also, I have hope that I would like to hear from other members what their thoughts are. I was hoping for something with probably a little more pizazz. If I were going to vote this set that we have in front of us I’d probably go to number one, the one that’s up on the screen. think it tells the real story. Just because I I think number three, yeah, maybe they look happier, but the story of the immigrants was not always happy. It was a challenge and an ordeal to have to go through. to be honest about that and honor it, I think (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 And Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 84 that’s the right way to approach this. So if there’s one in this collection that I would go for it is number one. But I’d like to hear other members and their thoughts about whether or not we have the materials here to go forward, deal with it, or if we should support Donald’s motion and ask for something new. MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: about the immigrants. buildings. Michael. Everybody here knows it’s It’s not about the If I were to vote it would be number one, because it’s the best in an insufficient selection. Number three won’t come out in a recognizable manner on a circulation quarter. I doubt they had the money for a flag anyway. There’s just -- and the negative space there in the building it’s the way negative space would outline the people. And as everybody here is eluded, there are so many personal stories there of heightened emotions, both negative and positive. I’m going to support Donald’s motion. MS. LANNIN: I’d like to vote. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 85 MR. HOGE: Mary. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Oh, I’m sorry. I would tend to agree. I think Don brought up some good points there on the ball and he threw the ball to the people who came and the buildings, that there could be a whole collage of different things here that would be very emotional that would be a true tribute. So I would tend to support the motion. MS. LANNIN: Robert, do you have any comments before we officially vote on Donald’s motion? MR. HOGE: Chairman. Yes, thank you, Madam I would support number three because it shows people looking toward the iconic buildings of Ellis Island with a sense of understanding that this is the source for which came many people who formed the United States. it’s not inappropriate. And that’s why I think And I think it’s appropriate the idea of people and of the structures of historic sites to an extent not about a paper or the buildings necessarily given on a (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 86 coin. And I think that the buildings here really kind of do (inaudible) justice. But perhaps this could be cleaned up a little bit our artist and give a somewhat stronger sense and I would support it. The others designs, first of all the buildings I think don’t really convey the sense of Ellis Island. Number one I don’t think that it’s for us to try to convey a sense of sadness about immigration, I think it’s something to celebrate. And also number two, it’s sort of mysterious thing, it’s sort of a Pandora’s box. But I would go with number three. MS. LANNIN: All right, we’re voting on Donald’s motion to add additional ideas and sketches. MR. HOGE: Yes, I am not in favor of the motion. MS. LANNIN: To request additional designs, did you hear that part of it? MR. HOGE: Yes, I did. But I think if the committee is satisfied with number three I (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 87 would be too. MS. STAFFORD: MS. LANNIN: Call for the collection. collection. Let’s call for the Let’s vote on Donald’s motion. All in favor of requesting additional designs and perhaps some reworking of the current designs that we have, all in favor say aye. UNIDENTIFIED: MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Aye. Raise your hand. Tom, aye. MS. LANNIN: Sounds like it’s unanimous. MR. SCARINCI: I don’t think Robert would vote for it. MR. HOGE: Nay. MS. LANNIN: unanimous. Nay, okay. Not quite The motion has it. MS. STAFFORD: thank you for joining us. Ms. Piltzecker, do you -Do you have any final comments? MR. PILZECKER: I would just say that we have thousands of architects in our collection, including many, many photos. And all of them are (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 88 available to any artist who may be rendering these. MS. STAFFORD: be in touch. Thank you so much, we’ll Moving onto the George Rogers Clark National Historical Park in Indiana. Designs one, two, three and four feature the George Rogers Clark Statue with the memorial in the background. Design one also includes a depiction of the northwest territory Clark was coveted with winning in the American Revolution. Additional inscriptions include “resolute and bold” and “daring and bold”. This is design one, two, three and four. Design five depicts American Colonel George Rogers Clark standing outside the surrendered Fort Sackville where an American Flag flies above. and bold”. It includes the inscription “daring The surrender of Fort Sackville, which Clark secured in February 1779 after its army marched through freezing flood waters assured United States claims to the frontier, an area nearly as large as the original 13 states. This is the site’s fourth preference. Design six and seven depict George Rogers (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 89 Clark starring up at the flag outside the surrendered Fort Sackville. In design six the additional encryption reads “a few men well conducted,” a phrase taken from Clark’s letter to Virginia Governor Patrick Henry. six and seven. This is design Design eight depicts George Rogers Clark standing in front of Fort Sackville. Design eight is the second preference of the site. Design nine depicts George Rogers Clark with the interior of Fort Sackville in the background. site. This is the third preference of the Design ten features George Rogers Clark leading his men through the flooded plains approaching Fort Sackville. first preference. This is the site’s Design 11 depicts George Rogers Clark on the march to Fort Sackville as he gestures to his men to follow. Designs 12 and 13 features the George Roger’s Clark Memorial. Above the 16-door columns reads the encryption “the conquest of the west, George Rogers Clark and the Frontiersmen of the American Revolution.” Inside the rotunda are seven (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 90 murals and a bronze statue of Clark. We should have with us Frank Doughman, Superintendent of the site on the phone. Frank, are you with us? And if so would you like to make some comments to the committee? MR. DOUGHMAN: Yes, I’m here. interesting listening to the committee. It’s been We’ve learned a lot about what goes into coins and some of which we wish we had known maybe before we took action. But our thinking has been that we would like to highlight the Clark story and falling into the national significance of the site and stay away from the monument and the statue which were built 150 years later. They’re iconic of the park and ionic in who we are, but that’s not the story or the reason we’re here. And we could live with any of the images, we like them all, but we do have some preferences. MS. SOLLMAN: Can I -- I have never -- sorry. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Jeanne. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 91 MS. SOLLMAN: park. I have never been to this And I’m wondering is the fort still there, is it representative? MR. DOUGHMAN: It is not. And we were having that discussion as you were talking about the Frederick Douglas site. any longer. The fort is not here The memorial does sit on that site. So archeologically there’s a plausibility that pieces of the fort remain. MS. LANNIN: questions. Anybody have any further And Gary’s requested to be the first to comment on these. representative? Any further questions of the All right, Gary< you’re up. MR. MARKS: Thank you, Madam Chair. I’d like to just comment, well, first of all let me say to the representative thank your on this line to show more what the park is about rather than a statue or something of that sort. I think that you’re moving definitely in the right direction. But I’d like to comment on (inaudible) on number ten. Can we bring up number ten? Seems to me that we really want get out what the park is (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 92 about. It’s about one thing and this image showing Clark leading his men in that battle. Folks that’s what they did and it’s an active depiction of what happened and why there is this historic site that we want to celebrate. I think a lot of the coin collectors out there will really gravitate to this image. And I think, you know, it’s got some wonderful negative space that will coin very well. So I’m definitely an advocate for this design, mainly because it tells the story. story about what happened. It tells the I think that’s really what you have with this coin in particular, because it’s a great story of (inaudible) to our nation. And so with that, Madam Chair, I’ll pass the mic to someone else. MS. LANNIN: Gary. Donald. Thank you for your comments, I’m sorry, I was just going to head that way, Erik, we’ll get to you. MR. SCARINCI: Yeah, I think there’s some nice designs here I could -- I think there are some nice designs here. You know, given the fact that the fort doesn’t exist, you know, and since the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 93 monument was erected many years later and, you know, I’m very happy that there’s not insisting on, you know, a coin to monument it. Probably the most active interesting design is the recommended design, number ten. Saratoga. It is about -- it is more like And just to carry on, you know, what I guess Gary had said about the Saratoga, if you remember, you know, we’re better with, you know, with that more abstract representation. You know, because there really wasn’t anything on the site, you know, that the artist were able to work with to give a depiction of, you know, of the site that would be unique, other than maybe a cannon. I think those were the four choices were probably about cannons, a lot of cannons. So, you know, the more symbolic representation was just about the only thing you could do was to have a photograph. And I think that’s the same thing, it appears as the same thing with this park. You know, if we had an insistence on monument, you know, or if the fort, you know, if there was even, you know, a stick left in the fort, you know, we (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 94 may have to consider, you know, showing something of the fort in it. But, you know, since that’s not the case I mean you’re really looking between an act of seeing a passive scene, you know, a more passive, the more passive. So I guess when I’m thinking logically about this, you know, now you’re looking, you know, once you’re past the fact that you can’t depict this park in any meaningful way with interpreting with anything that existed at the time, with any monument that’s there, so you know, we’re past that. depict this park? And so, you know, how do you So you depict this park with what it really represents, whether in the abstract or, you know, in the tangible. We’re going to deal with anything that might abstractly represent. We aren’t dealing with things that might, you know, be realistic representations, things like (inaudible) this park. So what are we dealing with? We’re dealing with passive scenes or active scenes. passive scenes being things like, you know, The (inaudible) I also recommend designs five, six, seven. And like me, you know, for reasons that (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 95 we’ve talked about nine (inaudible), you know, those are all people maybe standing there (inaudible). Or we can look at something active, like 10 or 11. And we’re not going to talk about 11. I don’t think we should really we should talk about 11 (inaudible). So there’s no need to take about favoritism, we can talk about (inaudible). So I think, you know, to talk way too much on this, I mean you needed to say I agree with Gary, which would’ve been the easiest way to say this. But for, you know, I elaborated a little bit more on why I agree with Gary. MS. LANNIN: But, you know -You’re being Donald. MR. SCARINCI: I’m being Donald, so I gave you my lengthy reason for why Gary, I think Gary was right on this topic. I think we, you know, I think the correct choice is number ten. MS. LANNIN: MS. SOLLMAN: enlightened my day. Thank you. Jeanne. Thank you, Donald. You’ve I appreciate the representative mentioning that there is no fort (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 96 there, so it changed my mind a whole lot about I’m going to support. And I like Gary’s reasoning for supporting number ten and I have to agree with him. I think we have a lot of energy there. that honestly (inaudible) on ten. Thank. MS. LANNIN: Erik. MR. JANSEN: If I can ask the representative a question. I think Am I correct, or maybe you would best describe, did we defend the fort or take the fort? MR. DOUGHMAN: MR. JANSEN: We took the fort. MR. HOGE: So we took the fort. MR. JANSEN: We took the fort. Right, and that’s the difference I think in this story versus the iconic battles of the Revolution or otherwise where we put an American flag over a fort saying we withstood. This is not about withstanding, this is about taking their fort away from them. This was a defeat of great -- I really appreciated the representative stage in saying we’re trying to get some respect here for the significance that took (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 97 place out in the middle of the woods. wasn’t even a state until 1860. Indiana So this thing was 39, 40 years before the place was even organized to the point the state was just a territory out in the middle of nowhere. And in a sense was kind of the edge of the world in terms of the colonial presence. So I’m reminded in many respects of the discussion that took place around the quarter design we did about three years ago, Perry’s Battle. Remember Lake Eerie and I put the Lake Eerie in and, of course, memorializing a naval battle that was taking place, War of 1812. MR. MORAN: Yes. MS. WASTSWEET: MR. JANSEN: Yeah. Um-hmm. And the whole idea was the battle took place in the lake, but there’s this tower on this island, hard to get to. this? What’s the imagery? How do we do And we sent the art back and it came back a second time. We settled for a picture of a statue within the welcoming center. And, you know, here we are again groundhog (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 98 day. So as much as I took pity on my legal friend here Donald last time, I’m going to stand while it’s recording here and again say this is about what happened there. I actually grew up in Indiana and I’ve been to this memorial. It is this ironically round, it’s kind of a round equivalent visionary piece to the Lincoln Memorial here in Washington. I don’t dare compare the two. But architecturally they’re very similar in the round versus in the rectangle. very proud of this. And people in Indiana are And I think people of Indiana know their own history and appreciate that nobody respects what took place here where we tilted and tied on the Red’s presence if not ability to use this city railroad against us. Is that a fair statement? MR. DOUGHMAN: well located. Yeah, that’s actually very And we do talk about memorial in conjunction with the length and how similar they are. MR. JANSEN: So to have last discussion, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 99 again, this is about what happened there, not there. And imagine ten has a reality to it. This was a bunch of folks that were sustaining their livelihoods on the frontier who decided their biggest threat for a change wasn’t Mother Nature, it was somebody else. And I don’t know if would ended up on design number ten or if there would’ve been other alternatives more similar reflecting the bold, daring nature of what took place. It was not about a few men well conducted, it was about a bunch of guys just beating the tar out of some people in the woods. And that’s what -- because I remember what it looks like. So I don’t know if we would have more choices or better choices, but my choice here is number ten. MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: things that Eric said. Thank you. Thanks Eric. Mike. I’m going to repeat a couple I think the average citizen of the United States has lost sight of the fact that the northwest territories would not have come to us had not George Rogers Clark and his men waded through water and won its victory by surprise only. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 100 Obviously by ferociousness, but not overwhelming numbers. I originally liked number one, because it said and it’s the only one that does say that by including the northwest territory. On the other hand I wish I’d known that we had a problem with the reality, the statute should’ve known that. didn’t. I So with respect to the fact that we can choose it you go to number ten. I recall a painting somewhere of Clark wading through waist sea water. And this is grounded in summary, but it was (inaudible). again, this is a quarter. And we’ve seen this before, there’s one figure too many here. works on a quarter. But Two The third one is going to be very difficult to distinguish, except for our proof coins for the guy on the street who picks it up and it’s going to be three figures, maybe he can see one over there on the left-hand side. Probably not, as you just don’t have any vision to begin with. I will vote for number ten, but I sure would’ve loved it if you all could figure out and (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 101 put down what is territory up there. And (inaudible) the committee, I’ll vote for number ten, but with some reluctance. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Michael. MS. WASTSWEET: Thank you. In the spirit of wading through water and (inaudible) against the time here. First I’d like to make note of designs one through four and commend the artist for attempting to use these images in a well thought out design. These are well designed and well-drawn and nice designs. Unfortunately, I’m never in favor of a statue on a coin if we can avoid it all. So I won’t be voting for these, but I just do want to give an honorable mention to the artists. I think these are well defined and (inaudible). My favorite design in the packet is design number eight. not there. I don’t mind that the fort is His land’s not there either. So we are not going to -- I think that’s the problem with the fort and it’s a problem with the men. They’re both (inaudible), they’re just in the (inaudible). that part doesn’t bother me. So I think this design (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 102 is brilliant because the way the fort so artistically frames the man. I think it shows a distinguished gesture, it’s well drawn. If the detail of the fort is kept very minimal it really highlights the shapes of the bodies. (inaudible) I love this design. Design number ten, which has a lot of favor, when I look at the actual size printout on our page it’s really quite busy for the size of the pallet. I don’t dislike this design, but I do think it’s quite busy. If you’ll notice the third character in the back as he drops back behind the first two characters his clothing fades into nothingness. That’s a good thing. I wish it were even more so, because then that would have helped clarify all the characters from one another. it’s drawn here it is quite busy. As And so therefore I still gravitate back toward number eight whereas clarity is formulated in the nature of the design. It’s just beautiful. MS. LANNIN: I’m done. Thank you, Heidi. Robert are you there? (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 103 MR. HOGE: Chairman. Yes, I am, thank you, Madam I would like to point out several things that struck me regarding the images in number eight, nine, ten and eleven. These all show Clark as a frontiersman, the costume. However, eight, nine and ten the rifles are all incorrectly drawn. And on number eight and nine swords being shown where it is actually about 1850 (inaudible), so it’s (inaudible). In number 10 and 11 are the two pieces that really show action here. But number 10 to me seems very busy and also the rifles are incorrect in the rendering. his homework. The artist didn’t do On number 11 the artist did do his homework and the figure which is intended to represent Clark there is shown properly equipped for a battle with the powder horn, bullet pouch, with a knife. It would kind of be nice to show him with a tomahawk, which is the way Clark actually did win this fort was to wear or execute several Indian prisoners with tomahawks in front Lee Garrison. So the violence in number ten would be appropriate too, because it’s pretty aggressive. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 104 But I would have to vote for number 11 for all these as the best historical representation. I’m not too much in favor of the background of the trees in the water. But I think that they do a good job of showing the interoperability of Carter as he’s gesturing leading his men forward and is correctly shown in the apparel, with the equipment of the time of the period. MS. LANNIN: So thank you. Thank you, Robert. April, do you have a comment? MS. STAFFORD: So just wanted to see if our liaison could comment upon the rifles if they’re correctly rendered in the designs that Mr. Hoge noted. MR. DOUGHMAN: Yeah, actually number ten was revised from our first draft at our request because of the weapons. Clark’s army was mostly Kentucky and Virginia frontiersmen. And the rifle was a very important part of the story. The rifle that’s drawn into the image when it was redone are actually from images of rifles that we have in our collection. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 105 MR. HOGE: This is Robert again. If you look closely you will see that the rifles in number 11 is actually directly drawn from an actual weapon. Whereas the weapon that’s in place on the others in number ten are not correctly drawn. also don’t show the right (inaudible). They So the artist took too many liberties copying the actual weapons. MS. LANNIN: Well, goodness. MR. JANSEN: I might kind of buttress Robert’s highlighting the contrast here. In number 11 I think I would question the accurate rendition of the length of the barrel. too long in that drawing. I think it’s a little And I’m with Robert on this, I think those rifles at the time I think had a much more specific ram rod for reloading. Of course, this predates cartridges, of course. And so I’m with Robert encouraging at least be historical. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Tom, do you have comments? MS. LANNIN: Mary, Tom here. I’m sorry. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 106 MR. URAM: Mary, Tom here. On number ten I think (inaudible) and I like in that design and so forth (inaudible) too. The representative’s already checked that it’s an actual drawing. Maybe they could (inaudible) the liberty of them to ensure the accuracy. That’s it, thank you. MS. LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: Okay, thank you. Donald. Yeah, I think when Hoge hedges like that where he’s not so sure of himself I think we should absolutely check it and make sure that we’re doing the right thing. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Okay, thank you, Donald. I have to say that I think my favorite was number ten. But there are two things that I’d like to comment on that can also be fixed by the artist. Is that fringe that’s on their clothing? It looks for all the world like my own (inaudible). And if I want to see I want to see fringe, if that’s the accurate clothing. And also the pool of water, their bodies are moving forward, but the water doesn’t match the direction their bodies are moving. Water would be like as if they were (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 107 standing still. Do you think? MS. WASTSWEET: No. I think that that wave, that pressure on his thigh going through there is indicating that he’s moving through the water. MS. LANNIN: Okay. MS. WASTSWEET: And the water is going that way, but he’s going that way. MS. LANNIN: I guess I want to see, I’d like to be a little bit more dramatic, because they are wading in water and that’s so difficult to do. MR. JANSEN: done? Heidi, how is that best Because on the eight-inch drawing you can see a bit of a wake in front of the leading man’s waist. There isn’t a clear kind of horizon on the water. Maybe the artist just didn’t think about it. Maybe if he can -- when taking (inaudible) and reduce it down to the one inch pallet how do we do that? MS. WASTSWEET: it’s drawn. I think it’s fine the way If you try to throw a horizon line in it it creates a can of worms. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 108 MR. JANSEN: Right. MS. WASTSWEET: And the way it’s drawn there is no horizon line, it just fades off into the distance. It’s all polished down and it’s even polished behind the ripples until it becomes solid underneath the figure. So I think it’s drawn accurately and it will translate well. MR. JANSEN: Well, it certainly comes forth as three pretty highly charged warriors here. And the water in the final pallet could disappear. I don’t know, it gets lost in the (inaudible). MS. WASTSWEET: MR. JANSEN: I think if you -- I mean that’s what Mary’s reacting to on it. MS. WASTSWEET: I think if we try to add any more ripples and waves that it’s just going to add more business to an already busy design. And I think it works enough where you know that it’s water, is enough to show that it’s water. Our imagination will fill in the rest. MR. JANSEN: comment. That would be a generic Mary, I apologize, I sense your sense of (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 109 urgency here. To the artist that I think produced all three of these images or perhaps more I think there’s some artifacts of his digitals tools that are kind of distracting here. MS. LANNIN: Yeah. MR. JANSEN: And I’ll just go to a specific, just for a matter of an example here I’ll go to page eight or drawing number eight rather. Just look at his hat, okay. There is this artificial black line with almost a halo around a dead white area. the tool. intent. Which I think is an artifact of Perhaps it actually is his artistic If it is I’ll go to ten and look at the third, if you will, to the nine o’clock direction in the drawing, the third of the three soldiers. Look around his hat. It’s almost bizarrely silhouetted against the guy behind him. it’s an artifact of the digital tool. I think Maybe I’m overreacting to artistic intent, but I find it really distracting. MS. WASTSWEET: If I were scoping that I would interpret that as an infused line as meant to (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 110 separate the figures with a sharp edge just as an artistic device. MR. JANSEN: And that’s what I’m really asking here. MS. WASTSWEET: But that’s up to the sculpture. MR. JANSEN: Is that an intentional item or is that an artifact of his tool? MR. EVERHART: Yeah, I can address that. I think this is the style in which this particular artist draws. And I think what he was attempting to do is address exactly what some of the concerns were, is the distinguishing between the figure behind him and the figure in the foreground. But that line would be pretty much ignored I think in the sculpture and we would indicate relief drop off to show the different planes. MR. JANSEN: This is the end point of my question. MR. EVERHART: That’s the way I interpret it. MS. LANNIN: Okay, we are running about (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 111 15 minutes late. Finish up. My favorite would be I’d say number ten for the action in it. And I will distribute the -- the current sheets have been distributed and lets vote. Why don’t we take a five-minute recess. MS. STAFFORD: Yeah. (Whereupon, at 11:15 a.m., the morning session concluded.) AFTERNOON MS. LANNIN: We're running a little late. I'd like to get to our lesson. (Inaudible.) (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 112 (Pause.) MS. LANNIN: All righty. I'd like to read the results of the American Renewable Forest work at the George Rogers Clark National Historic Park. First, number one received three votes. Number two received zero. three. Number three received Number four received zero. received one. Number five Number six received two. seven received zero. Number Number eight received six. Number nine received one. Action one of number ten received 22 votes and is the Committee's choice. Number 11 received five, and both 12 and 13 received no votes. Do you have any -- I'm sorry. Do you have any motions to fix any of the -- yes, sir? MR. JANSEN: Along the lines of discussion of the artist's rendering around the perimeter of the rifles and characters in number ten -- I don't know whether this is a motion or just a request of the sculptors -- (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 113 MS. LANNIN: Just a comment, maybe? MR. JANSEN: Yeah. To just make clear how you're going to interpret that drawing to the Committee so we understand what we're going to get if that design should (inaudible.) MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thank you. Now we'll move on to -- I'm sorry? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible.) MS. LANNIN: Frederick Douglas Okay. National Historic Site. MR. JANSEN: question? Could I get an answer to the The question was how are the sculptings going to interpret that image? MR. EVERHARD: I thought I did address that, but what I would do is pretty much ignore that and just use that as a device to separate the planes that are going on. So there would be a sharp demarcation between the plane -- between the figure at the eight o'clock position. MR. JANSEN: MR. EVERHARD: Yeah. As opposed to the one (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 114 before -- above him, rather. MR. JANSEN: Right. MR. EVERHART: So, you know, it's just more or less just something to pop the figure out visually, but when we get to the sculpture we're going to ignore it. MR. JANSEN: Thank you. MS. LANNIN: All right. I'd like to go on to the Frederick Douglas National Historic Site. Our reverse number one is our winner with 21 points. Number two with three votes. three had two votes. Number Number 14 is our second favorite with 15 votes. Number five had one vote, and number six had three votes. So in reverse, number one for Frederick Douglas, and reverse number ten for George Rogers Clark. Any comments? MS. STAFFORD: (Inaudible.) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: MS. LANNIN: MR. HOGE: Hello? Yes, Robert? Hi. This is Robert. I have a (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 115 comment for the George Washington Park, number ten. These soldiers need to be redone to the extent that they are actually armed. They're carrying rifles but they don't have any armaments, so they wouldn’t be a threat in that position. They need to have powder horns, bullet pouches, knives, tomahawks, anything like that. They're not equipped to do battle. MS. LANNIN: So are you making a motion or is it just a comment? MR. HOGE: Well, I'd comment that the artist needs to improve this rendition. They need to be armed by figuring number 11. MR. EVERHART: I would certainly support that thought. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm just trying to wonder about that -MR. EVERHART: MR. HOGE: Sounds like a motion, Bob. Okay. I will make a motion that the figures be enhanced to the extent that they're shown accurately equipped with the necessary weaponry. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 116 MR. JANSEN: Second. MS. LANNIN: Erik seconds. Any other discussion on that? (No audible response.) MS. LANNIN: motion? All in favor of Robert's Tom, are you voting yes on this motion? MR. URAM: Yes. MS. LANNIN: That it carries. MR. URAM: That the motion carries. Yes. MR. JANSEN: Thank you, Robert. MS. LANNIN: All right. We're moving on to the 2017 Lions Club International Century Service Commemorative Coin Design Program. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. It is Public Law 112-181 that requires the Secretary of the Treasury to mint and issue one dollar silver coins in 2017 to commemorate the centennial of the establishment of Lions Clubs International. Founded by Chicago business leader Melvin Jones in 1917, Lions Clubs International is the world's largest service club organization whose mission it is to empower volunteers to serve their (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 117 communities, meet humanitarian needs, encourage peace, and promote international understanding through Lions Clubs. Lions Clubs International has awarded hundreds of millions of dollars to fund five unique areas of service; preserving sight, combating disability, promoting health, serving youth, and providing disaster relief. Some of the many notable works of the Lions Clubs include their involvement in the drafting of the United Nation's Charter in 1945 and the establishment of the Sight First program in 1990. This program has been credited with the prevention of serious vision loss in 30 million people, and improved eye care for hundreds of millions more. On June 7th, 2017, Lions Clubs International will celebrate 100 years of community service to men, women, and children in need throughout the world. Do we have a Lions Clubs International (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 118 representative on the phone with us? Bloomkey (ph) or Melitta Cutright? Michele Are you with us? MS. CUTRIGHT: We're both on. This is Melitta Cutright. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you for joining us. Wonderful. Wonderful. Would you like to make a few comments to the committee? MS. CUTRIGHT: comment. I would like to make a I found your previous discussion very interesting. I grew up in the State of Illinois and have been to the George Rogers Clark Memorial many, many times, so I look forward to seeing the designs. I think you have seen the ones that were our recommendations, and we're here to answer any questions from you. Michele, are you there? (No audible response.) MS. STAFFORD: Okay. So we'll move through the portfolio and point out the preferences of the liaison and take questions at the end. Thank you. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 119 All obverse designs carry the required inscriptions "Liberty, In God We Trust," and "2017." Obverses one and 1A present a portrait of Lions Clubs International founder Melvin Jones, with a pair of eyeglasses in his hands as he places them on the face of the viewer. In obverse one, an inscription, "Do something for somebody else," is depicted with some words magnified by the lenses of the eyeglasses. Obverse two, the Lions Clubs and Commission of Fine Arts, obverse preference, depicts Melvin Jones paired with the Lions Clubs logo. Additional inscription reads, "Melvin Jones, Founder." Obverse three portrays Melvin Jones in front of the globe with the inscription, "We serve." Obverses four, five, and six present Melvin Jones together with a lion. In design five the lion is depicted in silhouette reminiscent of the Lions Clubs international logo. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 120 Additional inscriptions include, "We serve,” “Lions Clubs Founder," and "Melvin Jones." This is design four, five, and six. Oberse seven through ten feature Melvin Jones super imposed over the Lions Clubs Logo. Additional inscriptions include, "We serve,” “Melvin Jones," and "Founder." This is obverse seven, eight, nine, and ten. Obverse 11 portrays a child putting on eyeglasses and Melvin Jones with the inscriptions, "Lions Clubs” and “Melvin Jones." Versus 12 and 13 depict portraits of Melvin Jones with the inscription, "Melvin Jones, Lions Clubs Founder." This is obverse 12 and 13. Moving on to the reverse designs. They all carry required inscriptions, "United States of America,” “E Pluribus Unum," and the denomination. Reverses one through 4A depict the Lions Clubs International logo. In design one a stylized globe placed behind the logo signifies the global presence of the Lions Clubs. Inscriptions include, "Since 1917, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 121 Strength, Courage, Fidelity, Action. Celebrating 100 Years of Service, 1917," and "2017." This is reverse one. Two, three, four, and 4A. Reverses five, 5A and 5B feature a lion or lions set against the globe. In design five a torch accompanies the lion symbolizing Helen Keller's charge to Lions to become knights in the crusade against darkness through their aid to build -- through their aid to the blind and visually impaired. Reverses five and 5A include the inscription, "Since 1917." 5A, and 5B. This is reverse five, This design is the Lions Clubs and the Commission of Fine Arts preferred reverse design. MR. SCARINCI: 5A and 5B. MS. STAFFORD: 5B, right here. And it features a cub accompanying a male and a female lion with the inscriptions, "Celebrating 100 years of service." Reverses six and seven present a male and female lion in profile with inscriptions, "Since 1917," and "Celebrating 100 years of service." (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 122 This is design six and seven. Reverse eight features a male and female lion in profile with the inscription, "Fidelity, Action, Courage, Strength," lined up to spell the word "Lion" vertically. Reverses nine and 9A depict a male and female lion with the inscriptions, "Strength, Courage, Fidelity, Action, Lions Clubs," and "Since 1917." This is reverse nine and 9A, which additionally depicts a lion cub. Reverse 10, 11, 11A, and 11B feature a male and female lion superimposed over a globe with additional inscriptions including "Lions Clubs, 100 years of service, celebrating 100 years of service, 100 years," or, "Strength, courage, fidelity, and action." This is reverse 10 and 11, which both additionally feature a lion cub. Moving on to 11A, which features a Lions Clubs International logo, and 11B. Reverse 12 shows two lions standing on a globe with latitude and longitude lines, getting it formed beneath their feet. An additional (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 123 inscription reads, "Since 1917." Reverse 13 depicts a pride of lions walking together. Inscriptions include, "Celebrating 100 years of service." Reverses 14 and 14A present a pride of lions at rest. Reverse 14 includes the Lions Clubs logo and additional inscriptions include, "100 years of service; Strength, courage, fidelity, action," and "Celebrating 100 years of service." This is design 14 and 14A. Madam Chair? MS. LANNIN: Do any of our members have any questions for the Lions Club representative now? MR. JANSEN: Oh. MS. LANNIN: Okay. It was really for April. MR. SCARINCI: Would it be correct -- is it correct to assume that obverse one and reverse one are designed by the same artist? MS. STAFFORD: Would you want to assume that? (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 124 MS. CURTIGHT: Yes. MR. SCARINCI: Good. obviously the one I liked. MS. STAFFORD: MR. JANSEN: comment here. Okay. That's One and one. Erik? And that kind of begs a We're -- the analytical side of me says before you even try to wade through this eye candy we have, which is -- I'm swamped by the reality that either these images are so bold and strong that they're easy to draw or the artistic talent is just so incredibly good. This is eye candy. I'm just -- I'm just swamped with the quality of -- especially the reverses. My goodness. But the analytic side of me says as a committee we're going to be toying with this pairing unit here because we have the Lions logo and so almost before you even weigh the merits of the art you have to respect the compatibility issues and ask yourself, "What are we going to do with the logo?" If it's going to be there, is it an (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 125 obverse or reverse, and whichever one you make, choose, or divulge into, it ends up affecting the choice of the other set of artwork to be done. So I personally don't have a ton of preference at this point. I'm going to listen very carefully, but you almost have to address that up front and I don't know how we do that as a committee, where, if the logo goes. MS. STAFFORD: Jeanne, do you have a comment? MS. SOLLMAN: Yes. For our representative, is it imperative that the logo be on this or do you prefer the abstract quality (inaudible) realistic lions on the reverse. MS. CUTRIGHT: I think that the most recognizable thing about Lions Club International is the logo. MS. SOLLMAN: The logo -- so in that way the logo in reverse number one and two? MS. CUTRIGHT: I personally like it in the -- not the reverse, I like it in the body in the front. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 126 MS. SOLLMAN: You want it in the front. MS. CUTRIGHT: MS. SOLLMAN: I'm confused. Yeah. So in the front -- I think Preference wise, one and two? MS. CUTRIGHT: MS. SOLLMAN: understand now. My preference is 02. Okay, two -- 02. Okay. I Thank you. MS. CUTRIGHT: And if I could tell you why I think we like that one? Mellon Jones' (ph) name is not well known outside our circle. His picture is not that well known. The logo is -- lining them all three together gives, I think, recognition to the people who know the logo and -- if you're driving through a small town in the United States, you're going to see that logo as you drive in. MS. SOLLMAN: Correct. MS. CUTRIGHT: was part of our thinking. Quite likely. And that Also -- and Michele could comment maybe about this -- by far that is the best representation of what Melvin Jones looked like in the pictures, the one in 02. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 127 MR. JANSEN: Reverse number two. MS. CUTRIGHT: Yes. MS. STAFFORD: Obverse number two. MS. CUTRIGHT: I'm –now showing the obverse in front, right?. MR. JANSEN: MS. CURTIGHT: Correct. Yes. Yeah, obverse number two. That's Michele -- you have found and looked at many, many pictures of Melvin Jones. Wouldn't you say that's the best one of him? MR. JANSEN: preferences? So, again, the -- your Because I'm not clear at this point. MS. STAFFORD: Obverse two, and reverse 5B. MR. JANSEN: Thank you. Obverse two and reverse 5B. MS. STAFFORD: And just so -- and just to speak to the point of likeness, as we have before, we can always improve the likeness of a figure that is depicted. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: I would like to call on Tom (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 128 first for any comments. MR. JANSEN: Tom, are you there? MS. LANNIN: Tom, you here? (No audible response.) MS. LANNIN: Tom? MR. JANSEN: Tom? (No audible response.) MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: How about Robert? Hello? MS. LANNIN: MR. URM: happened there. I'm here. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. Tom? I don't know what To the representatives, first of all, congratulations on having a commemoration of such magnitude. Having been a past District Governor of Rotary International, I can really -- this is good for all service clubs and congratulations on it. And, you know, I know we've talked to the points on logos and so forth, so -- for the logos on the coins, I should say. However, in this instance I think I -with the stakeholders here, I would definitely (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 129 agree that it's something that should be on there because it is so recognizable. And I think what we have to do when we're looking at this -- we're not only looking at a coin that is going to be here in the United States, but this is going to have International appeal, so my first thought was, I really like number one with the eyeglasses because of the work of -- once again, that's kind of regional Lions versus the International. And I know how important it is -- when the stakeholders were here a year ago -- that Melvin Jones be on the obverse. And so, in having said that, I guess number two with the logo on the back would be the most recognizable and the most appealing to not only the Lions Club, but its members internationally as well. So I would agree that we have to include the logo. It wasn't something that I was really excited about, but taking it from a community service point of view, and the recognizable -- I (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 130 mean, they're so well recognized that it's important. So, as much as I like these designs and they're just -- as Erik has said, he did some great, great designs -- having the logo on the front is probably the way to go because that is symbolized with the founder, Mr. Jones. And then going to the reverse, I -- let me get back there -- the stakeholders choice of 5A -- 5B, I'm sorry. I like it a lot, but I would rather see a little bit more of the globe, so I'd lean a little bit more towards number 11 versus number 5B, simply because there's more of a globe there. 11A wouldn't work because we have the logo already on the front, which is a good place, I think, to put it, and work on strengthening the back. All of these designs for the reverse are just so well done. I would go with the -- I think it's going to be a winner either way. I think by having the founder on the front you serve the clubs (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 131 and the millions of -- a million three, or a million four members that you have. And then you serve the (inaudible) community with great design also on the reverse side. I think it's a real winner and I would once again congratulate you guys. I would certainly consider voting for 5B, but I'd also like to hear the rest of the Committee as it relates to some of the designs such as reverse 11. And I'd just like to, you know, once again, say that Lions Club and all of the other clubs, you know, whether it's around the corner serving the community or around the world, I think the Lion's should be proudly roaring. So, thanks for your -- thanks for your time. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Thanks so much, Tom. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Mary. I'd like to call on Robert and then if we could sort of quickly move through the great choices that we've got to keep the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 132 Committee on time. I'd appreciate that. MR. HOGE: Hello. Robert? Thank you, Madam Chair. These are hard to select, but I would have to go with the Committee's selection. If the portrait of Melvin Jones is the best on number two, and it includes the logo, I can't see how we could go wrong by now choosing that one. On the reverse it's showing all of these various attractive images of lions. they're going to be real winners. choose among them. I think It's hard to I agree with Tom that it's nice to see the world in a little more space there with the little group of lions in number 11. But I would not be adverse at all to going with the stakeholders preference of 5b. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, Robert. Thank you. Heidi? On the obverses I love the creativity of obverses one and 1A, but if we are facing the challenge of fitting on the logo, then I would have to go with the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 133 preference for number two. I think it's a strong choice, but I will -- I don't have a strong opinion there yet. On the reverses, for design, there's the preference for 5B. I didn't comment on that. I'd like to say that these lines are drawn just beautifully. I think they're really gorgeous. I do have a couple of issues on the cub. Although adorable, I think it is out of proportion with these adult lions. I think it's too small. If you would skip forward to 9A as a comparison. cub. I think this is the proper size of a But I preferred the lions in 5B, so then that moves me to design 5A, which simply eliminates the cub. I think that steps over the problem of the cub being too small, and it just focuses on the adult lions. It's a bold image. It's gorgeous. The other issue with 5B is the way the lettering runs over the top of the animals, especially where you see E-Pluribus (ph) -- you see the b-u-s and u runs over the -- halfway over the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 134 arms -- excuse me, legs of the lion and the cub, and all the texture of the main -- it doesn't look like it's a problem in the drawing, but I can tell you in the sculpture that is a problem. It's a technical challenge. going to read well. It's not It's not going to be elegant. Yes, it can be done, but it's not going to be done well. I would steer clear of that and I would - if the stakeholders like the direction of design 5B, I would encourage them to consider 5A instead. That would be my choice. MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Thank you. Mike? I'm certainly going to give the stakeholders number two on the obverse as a reasonable design. Good likeness that simplifies the scope. It also simplifies what you do on the reverse. You can go with the Lions in some form or fashion. I have a bit of a problem with Tom Uram's suggestion of -- what is it? Number 11, because I (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 135 don't like the extension of the animals over to the rim of the coin. It's awkwardly drawn right there. So you're back to 5A and 5B, and I'll figure that one out when I write it on the scorecard. MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Gary (ph?) Well, it's hard to really express everything I want to right now. I'll start by saying that as someone who dedicated -- has dedicated his life to public service as a professional City Manager, I remember two service clubs, Rotary and Optimist. I think it's great. This is my last program to go out with a service club. I also am gratified that this portfolio is absolutely gorgeous. You know, this is an example of what my hopes and my aspirations were, so thank you so much. And to the artist, phenomenal work. The obverse number two is the one that I was hopeful for, so I'm happy that we're -- it looks like the Committee and the Lions are in (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 136 agreement with that. If we could go to 5B, one of the things I'd learned early on in this process was that a pretty drawing doesn't really necessarily mean a pretty coin, especially in the proof variety. And while it certainly won't be ugly -- I think it will be an attractive coin, but I think with this 5B -- I think with the other possibilities that have been offered here, I think 5B is a lesser one. And because of the fact that there's not a lot of field, there's not a lot of balance between the raised objects in the field, we've clustered the animals together so on the proof version there's going to be a lot of black frost. So, just -- you know, for the Lion's people, I'm probably not communicating this well, but it's not going to look like the drawing. Beautiful drawing -- absolutely gorgeous drawing. I personally happen to think that the designs of -- represented in six, seven, eight -give the balance of field -- the background goes -- (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 137 that white area you see there, for the members of the Lion's listening in -- that will all be a mirrored background, and it will offset the lions - you know, a nice frosted color on metal, and it will pop. It'll pop off of there. The design you've chosen doesn't pop. It's all going to be a lot of white. There's no contrast. I think some contrast around the edges, depending on how they sculpt it -- maybe even a little contrast in that globe up there -- then a lot of that is just going to be white. So, that's just my thought about that. Ultimately you won't go too wrong because it'll still be an attractive coin, it just won't be everything that I would want for a service club of the Lion's International. So, with that, I sign off. MR. URAM: question for you. Gary, Tom here. Just a What would you think about number 10 with (inaudible) behind it, then, instead of the field? That would still create the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 138 International spot using the globe there -- with more globe. I was getting more towards the globe on number 11 then the animals themselves, but -MR. MARKS: I would prefer the more minimalist approach where we could -- we could magnify the mirrored surfaces in the background to make them -- make the objects pop. I think number 10 is just -- there's too much. There's -- and if there's any criticism to the designs for these reverses, it's that some of them there's just too much here, even for a silver dollar. So, just in my humble opinion, I think number 10 is in that category of too much. So, with that, I sign off. (Applause.) MR. SCARCINI: It's appropriate that I follow Gary's last comment. Last comment, last comment, last comment. First of all, just to make it clear, I really do like -- I like the thinking and the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 139 playfulness behind one and one, obverse one and reverse one. I think, you know, that's the kind of thing, you know, I'd like to see more of in the future. You know, with that being said, you know, I don't want to belabor this. I think the majority of the people are going in the direction of two, obverse two, so I'm not going to stand in the way of that. You know, I'll support obverse two. I do think, however, in the reverse I'm going to support reverse 5A instead of 5B, and my thinking is I just don't like a little cub, and I think number one, there's just something wrong with it. I don't know what it is, but it's something wrong with it. And I think that the two -- you know, the two animals, you know, look a lot more powerful, and especially -- I think if it would pop out it would be -- hey, it would just make it nice. I think it'll make a nicer dollar coin. I think 5A will make a nicer dollar coin and it will be powerful, it'll be lions on a coin, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 140 people like animals, like lions. I don't really think we’ve done a lion on U.S. coins. Before we may have, but I don't think we have. So, I think 5A is successful. That being said, I think my recommendation is if we go with -if the CCAC supports 5A as a reverse, the Commission on Fine Arts has already supported 5B as a reverse. We just punt that on up to the Secretary and let him decide. MS. LANNIN: MS. SOLLOMAN: Thank you. Jeanne. Thank you, Madam Chair. I agree with Donald's -- also with my other colleagues -- with obverse 1A. It's a (inaudible) and I congratulate the artist who conceived that idea. I think that it would have been a great coin, however, it doesn't have the logo on it and I think this is important for this coin. I also agree with our representative that this is the best likeness of Melvin Jones on number two. So I will be supporting number two. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 On Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 141 the obverse, as Heidi said, these lions are great. If I had to pick one of the 5's, 5A and 5B, I'm gravitating toward less is more, and in five, which just has a single line, I understand that probably it's more desirable to have the two lions -- to have a lioness there to represent gender diversity. So I'm having trouble choosing between five and 5A. 5B is too complicated for the size of this metal, and a little cub lion is kind of run thing. Maybe he needs Lion help, I don't know, but I think by eliminating that will probably eliminate that problem. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Jeanne. MR. JANSEN: Okay. two directions here. Erik? So, I kind of have One of them is vote your inspiration, and the other one is kind of vote the easy way. Inspiration makes me turn to obverse number one. I think if you were to ask Melvin Jones he'd say, Vote for my idea, vote for the standard, vote for the message. Don't vote for my (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 142 face." And that's not out of disrespect for the man, quite the opposite. I think the use of the eyes, the way it's -- he designed one, in particular, not 1A -- the way the glasses screw up the text is kind of like - as I look at this coin, it all kind of visually fits really well. If my eye is drawn to the tension, the discord, what the heck is going on down there? It doesn't flow well. Do I need to understand that. something for somebody else. And so suddenly this obverse turns from the portrait of a man behind an iconic organization of wonderful stuff to, do something for somebody else. And now you honor the energy called his life's effort that was put into this organization. That's voting the inspiration. Now, if you go with me on that, then on the reverse you kind of have to say, okay, what happens to the logo here? I think the committee has pretty much blown out the first five literal (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 143 endorsements of the logo. I turn to 11A, guys. gorgeous proof. This would be a I think we can deal with the awkwardness of the way the male's body bleeds to the edge. I think if we put the charge back to the artist to say give us the rest of the body just like he gave us that profile here, I think we'll get it. We just have to ask for it. The proof will be gorgeous here, guys. And let's face it, a silver dollar, iconic coin, iconic pallet, a collector's preference, the proof will outsell uncirculated two to one. MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: gorgeous proof. Right, Gary? Almost always. This thing will be a We've got the frosty animals, we'll have the globe with the continents in polish done, right? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: MR. JANSEN: the oceans in texture. Yes. The continents in polish, We have the contrast that will just make the lion symbol pop. It will appear bigger than life. It (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 144 won't be the size of a dime here. It will visually dominate the optical appearance of this coin. So, I'm going to advocate, vote the inspiration here. Obverse one, reverse 11A. want to go with the flow, fine. You I will respect the preference, the obverse two, which liberates you to pick a reverse that doesn't need the logo. I would say if you're a five player, 5B will be a tragic proof. It won't work. turn into a frosty blob. a lot. It'll just 5A won't improve on that Five actually starts taking you to around - -- I don't really like it that well. But I think 5B is the worst choice here. That's not a baby lion, that's just a small lion. If you want to see what a cub looks like, go down to 9A. There you've got a cub. And I'm not sure I like the chin lines in nine or 9A. I can certainly appreciate Gary's liking simplicity on these lions. For a silver dollar, folks, that proof carries the day, I think we have to respect how the proof rendering will happen. And I come back now to 11A, which is both (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 145 the inspiration, and I think inspiration is the only way to go here. So I'm going to put my weight behind one and 11A, and I'm not going to support two because I want to make sure inspiration has its chance. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Erik. Everybody who would like to submit their voting sheets -- or you already did that? MR. JANSEN: I didn't hear that. MS. LANNIN: I said, everyone would like to submit their voting sheets. Let's do that. And we're going to have a five minute break, and then something else is going to happen. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Thank you to all the liaisons from Lion's Clubs for joining us. appreciate it. We Thank you. (Recess.) MS. LANNIN: Mr. Norton, if you would sit MR. NORTON: I'm almost ready. MS. LANNIN: We're almost ready, and down -Almost ready. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 146 before we do anything we have to read votes. All right. Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, let's read -- let's do the Lion's Club International Century of Service Commemorative Coin Program. Obverse number one received 13 votes. Obverse number 1A received four. The winning obverse is what the stakeholder has a preference with 22 votes -- is obverse number two. All the rest of the obverses received zero votes. For the reverse, reverse number one received one. zero. Two, three, four, and 4A received Reverse number five received six. Reverse number 5A with Heidi's suggestion to remove the cub is the winning one, which received 18. The stakeholders preference was then down to four votes for 5B. Reverse six received one. received seven. Reverse eight received one. votes for number nine. each for ten and 11. 11B. Reverse seven Three votes for 9A. Six votes for 11A. No One None for One for 12, and none for the remaining 13, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 147 14, or 14A. And now I would like to say something. Committee Members, it is a privilege that I recognize our former Chair, Gary Marks, who is retiring as a member of the Citizen's Coinage Advisory Committee. You can't deny that Gary has brought passion and commitment to the committee by a consistent and constant voice for America's coins that we will greatly miss in the future. I greatly appreciate his steadfastness as Chair of this incredible group of individuals, as someone to serve our country in advancing the history of the United States through coins and metals. The committee will now recognize Deputy Director Richard Peterson for a presentation. MR. PETERSON: Thank you very much, Mary. It is my honor and privilege to be here today to recognize Gary on the occasion of his retirement from the CCAC. And you see some presentations we have (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 148 here. I'd like to invite Don Everhart to make a few remarks and make his presentation from here. MR. EVERHART: remarks today. I wasn't prepared to give I just want to say to Gary, it's not going to be the same without you here and it's going to be hard for me to see the Committee without you here. We really appreciate what you've done for us, and I thought you've always had the Committee's best interest at heart when you've made your decisions, and I thought you made good decisions. And I wish you the best of luck. (Applause.) MR. EVERHART: My description -- Gary liked that design I did for monuments mintage. wasn't picked. It And it says, "Art is the activity of free minds." It's the visual evidence of free minds, so I put to the fellow artist with a free mind -and he requested this from me and I'm glad to give it to him. I think he got what I was trying to say with this reverse design. I'm not sure a lot of (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 149 other ones did get it though. MS. LANNIN: Nice. MR. PETERSON: So, in January of 2011 Ken Yenkey (ph) directed the United States Mint, and shortly thereafter was my very first CCAC meeting, and my involvement with the CCAC before that was rather limited. But then, as I became Director, and I meet the CCAC for the first time, I would say, oh, we've got (inaudible.) The relationship was not on solid ground. The Committee had gone off and produced a blueprint of recommended actions. I read that in full detail and took it to heart, and over the next several years we set about to implement each and every one of those actions. Gary's leadership at the CCAC is defined, and the help that he received from others here in the room, and those who have already ended their time at the CCAC, really came to drive our road map over the last four plus years. So, Gary, I just want to thank you (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 150 personally for the time you've spent with me, coaching me, bringing me up to speed on our work, and American coinage and how to -- you know, what the word iconic really means. What is the iconic image of the theme that we put on our coins, and how do you capture that spirit with one or two small emblematic devices? So, your time and commitment in educating me, I will be eternally grateful for that. Thank you. (Applause.) MR. PETERSON: We're going to introduce you right here in just a minute to make the presentation, but you had asked to have the Suu Kiy (ph) medal, which was one of your first Congressional gold medal designs that you were -that you were in CCAC for, to be doing your presentation. This is the program from the ceremony where she was honored, and we're going to get you one of these as well. Thank you. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 151 It's my pleasure to introduce our Principal Deputy Director, Red (ph) Jeppson. MR. JEPPSON: Thanks. You know, I was thinking about the timeline when you mentioned that Gary has been here for eight and a half years. So that means that I've been here for the last half years. There was eight years that preceded me being here, and so I thought it was appropriate that Dick kind of give the remarks. But I just want to make two -- a couple of observations real quick. I came from a different agency prior to coming here and we had two committees that we were required to run. And so -- and then there were a couple more that I actually sat on by statute of where I was. And when you look at how well this committee functions here with your team, it really is a role model. I've had an opportunity to see it. Sometimes I'm afraid that if some of our fellow citizens saw how the committees function or (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 152 were attended, or got down to business, they would be a little baffled and maybe disappointed. But I can tell you wholeheartedly that I'm so impressed with the way that it's staff and committee work together to really do the work of the people here. So, with that, I think that we can contribute that function, and in no small part to Gary and his leadership while he was the Chair of the -- and also was a member of the committee. So, with the deepest of gratitude from the United States Mint, to the extent we represent the public at large, thank you for what you've done, for your contribution of time, sacrifice, intellect and talent to the Mint. So, again, thank you, Gary. You will be sorely missed here as a member of this committee. Thank you. (Applause.) MR. PETERSON: Let me read this citation here that's on the presentation. "The United States Mint's certificate of (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 153 distinguished public service present to Gary Marks in gratitude for your distinguished public service to the Secretary of the Treasury and the United States Mint, as both a member and Chairperson of the Citizen's Coinage Advisory Committee." "In recognition of your exemplary advice on themes and designs of the nation's coinage and medals, of commemorative coin mintages and the events, people, and places deserving of commemoration on coins." "Your exceptional work has both advanced the hobby and has held the United States Mint to fulfill its mission, ensuring that each coin and medal connects every American to our Nation's greatness and a future of hope." Signed, (inaudible.) (Applause.) MR. PETERSON: Ladies and gentleman, it's my pleasure to introduce Gary Marks. MR. MORAN: Did Donald write it for you? MR. MARKS: Chairwoman Lannin, distinguished members of the CCAC, Principal Deputy (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 154 Director Jeppson, Deputy Director Peterson, and the amazing Mint staff, let me address you all as friends. My wife Lorie was unable to be here today, yet it was because of her and her support over all these years that I was able to serve. While I was working here with all of you, she was back at home taking care of life. It would not be possible for me to adequately express the thankfulness I have for her in her support of me. Likewise, it would be impossible to communicate all that I'm feeling now, and also fully express the debt of gratitude I feel to each and all of you, so I will focus on just a few of the most essential points. First, it's with great appreciation and thanks I receive this handsome plaque. This recognition will occupy a special place of display, both on a physical wall and in my heart. It is the tradition of outgoing members to select a medal produced during their tenure to be displayed on their service plaque. For me, the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 155 choice was fairly easy. I chose the Aung San Suu Kyi Medal, designed and sculpted by Don Everhart. Of all the Congressional gold medals the Committee has helped create during my tenure, the medal awarded to Suu Kyi as a defender and champion of liberty speaks most deeply to me. For me, Suu Kyi stands as a living Miss Liberty, thus the theme of liberty well, and beautifully executed, explains my selection of the Suu Kyi medal. Here's another design that I highlight as particularly special to me. In fact, of the thousands of designs this committee considered and evaluated during my eight plus years of service, Don Everhart's Free Minds design, prepared as part of the Monument's Congressional Gold Medal program, stands as the most personally impactful design to me. The best art has the ability to speak to your sensibilities, and in some instances to reach out and grab your heart. Don's design grabbed my (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 156 heart about something near and dear to me. Art. The inscription, "Art is the visible evidence of the activity of free minds," so eloquently communicates the link between art and its literal and evidentiary place in human freedom. The design is a beautiful portrayal of the symbols of art. Visual art, performing art, and literature drive home that point. And the butterfly, a symbol of beauty, grace, peace, complexity, and delicacy, is the perfect image to represent the soul of fine art. In many ways the design speaks to the essence of what we do as a committee and staff team. We are all players in the conveyance of art, the evidence of free minds, to the nation and world. And for me in my service here, as many of you have heard me say so many times, it's always been all about the art. Don graciously agreed to sign this design for me and it will occupy a space next to my service plaque, and it will serve as a prized (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 157 memento of my work here with the committee and my service to the United States Mint, and by extension, the Nation. For the balance of my remarks, I want to talk about what we did and how my service changed me. First, what we did, and more precisely, what we accomplished. Cultural anthropologist, Margaret Mead once said, "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people, can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." Friends, we change the world of American numismatics. We change the artistic narrative that is so routinely and frequently encountered by our Nation's people through coins. The magnitude of that accomplishment is truly immeasurable. done. Well Well done. In early 2011 this committee published the blueprint for advancement of artistic creativity and excellence in United States coins and medals, and would funnel through -- often uncommon in government, the Mint staff embraced and (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 158 implemented the blueprints recommendations, every one of them. The changes were many and meaningful. The design process moved from sales and marketing to a division focused on the Mint's sculptor engravers, and focused on art quality. The sculptor engravers were moved upstairs from the basement in Philadelphia to a location more suitable for artistic pursuit. The Mint conducted a call for artists that resulted in the addition of 20 or so new members of the artistic infusion program. The role of the CCAC was expanded to include input on design themes prior to the execution of designs. And, most importantly to me, the Mint and committee now enjoy a relationship that allows the free exchange of numismatic expertise and ideas on a broad range of issues. The result of those changes are well known to all of us. Examples of design and excellence now fill the pages of the typical (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 159 program portfolio. The portfolio from this meeting is Exhibit A on that. Their coins and medals have been the result, and I am very proud that I have been given permission to give some proof about that. I am able to announce that the coin of the year awards, run by the Prossy (ph) Organization, has just very recently named in four of the ten categories that they've awarded the United States mint coins for nomination. huge accomplishment. That is a That is the first nominations the Mint has received since 2009. We are on our way, folks. And that accomplishment of their coins and medals is so important. The designs on United States Coins and Medals are more than simple illustrations on medal disks. They are expressions of the values, aspirations, and shared heritage of our nation. They serve as illustrations to the world of the essence and the story of America. Therefore, the designs on United States coins and medals necessarily must be of quality and (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 160 must reflect the inspiration appropriate and befitting the ideals of our great nation. The products of the United States Mint, over the years since the blueprint, have increasingly met that challenge and I am heartened to leave my post now, seeing a new legacy of design excellence building and going strongly and powerfully ahead into the future. But the work is never done. issuance of the 24-karat gold High The Relief Liberty coin was a great success and stride forward for our team. And the silver medal of the same design it will ultimately produced in 2016 will be a success of several more magnitudes. Of that, I have no doubt. I urge the Committee to keep recommending steps in advance of artistic creativity and excellence. The proposed art medals program remains a powerhouse of innovation just waiting to be released. I urge the Mint to make the program a reality. Letting our artists explore and create (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 161 the positive collateral impact on America's coins and medals will be tremendous. Of that I also have no doubt. So now, finally, how this experience has changed me. Artist and Author Flavia Weedn is quoted as saying, "Some people come in to your lives and go quickly. Some stay a while. Awaken with us with new understanding with the passing whisper of their wisdom and leave footprints on our heart. And we are never ever the same." Oh, my. How each of you has helped stir a change in me, and now you will leave footprints on my heart. Collectively and individually you've educated me in the elements of design, metallic arts, minting processes, and American history. It has been such a rich education. And along the way, my work with each of you -- the opportunity to gain from your knowledge, the constant exposure to art -- through that process something special happened in me. You, each of you, in a multiplicity of (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 162 ways, has helped me rediscover my own creativity. Perhaps without knowing it, you helped me learn again something I had lost in childhood, how to express myself artistically. It's been an amazing journey to first rediscover my art, and then to pursue and grow in it. I paint colorful abstracts with oil on canvas, create something I call wall sculptures, and for the past two years I have been focused on medalic design and the creation of silver art medals. So, know this, while you're carrying on the work of producing the Nation's coins and medals, I will be busy with my newfound time producing my own artistic creations and feeling grateful for all that you have invested in me. More than anything, I cherish the many friendships I have in this room. Please know that regardless of where life takes each of us from this point forward, my heart holds a special place for each of you. And as you carry forward now, please, please, never forget it's all about art. God bless (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 163 you, folks. Thank you. (Applause.) MR. PETERSON: I would like to invite the members of the CCAC to come up and join Gary and we can get a group photo, please. And then the folks at the mid will come up afterwards and join Gary and get some pictures. (Pause.) MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: Let's adjourn the meeting. I would like to -- with business concluded with that great speech, Gary -before we get our photo done I would like to adjourn the meeting. MR. MORAN: MS. LANNIN: Do I have a second? Second. All right. The meeting is adjourned. (Whereupon, at approximately 12:45 p.m., the meeting of the Citizen's Coinage Advisory Committee was adjourned.) (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 164 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, ERICK McNAIR, the officer before whom the foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my direction; that said deposition is a true record of the testimony given by said witness; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. ERICK McNAIR Notary Public in and for the DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 165 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER I, Wendy S. Sardina, do hereby certify that the foregoing pages 1 through 84, inclusive, are the true and accurate and complete transcript to the best of my ability, prepared from verbal recording made by electronic recording by Chaz Bennett on September 30, 2015 in Silver Spring, Maryland, and have verified the accuracy of the transcript comparing the typewritten transcript against verbal recording. Wendy S. Sardina 10/13/15 (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015 Capital Reporting Company Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting, 10/8/2015 166 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION I, ANNMARIE WASKO, hereby certify that I am not the Court Reporter who reported the following proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a true, correct, and complete transcription of said proceeding. _______________ ________________________ Date ANNMARIE WASKO Transcriptionist (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2015
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