The full text on this page is automatically extracted from the file linked above and may contain errors and inconsistencies.
Page 1 CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE PUBLIC MEETING Conducted by Mary Lamin Wednesday, October 18, 2017 9:02 a.m. 801 9th Street, NW Washington, D.C. 20220 Reported by: Michael Farkas Page 2 A P P E A R A N C E S Mary Lamin, Committee Chair Robert Hoge, Committee Member Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Committee Member Erik Jansen, Committee Member Michael Moran, Committee Member Jeanne Stevens-Sollman, Committee Member Donald Scarinci, Committee Member Dennis Tucker, Committee Member Thomas Uram, Committee Member Herman Viola, Committee Member Heidi Wastweet, Committee Member Brandon Hall Coin Update, Mint News Blog Macy Jenkins Numismatic News Andrew Shrone, Public Member Kevin Brown Bureau of Engraving and Printing April Stafford, Chief Office of Design Management, U.S. Mint Pam Borer, Program Manager Page 3 Office of Design Management, U.S. Mint Vanessa Franck, Program Manager Office of Design Management, U.S. Mint Megan Sullivan, Program Manager Office of Design Management, U.S. Mint Roger Vasquez, Program Manager Office of Design Management, U.S. Mint Betty Birdsong, Acting Liaison Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Greg Weinman, Counsel Liz Young, Counsel, Apollo 11 Program Frederick Lindstrom U.S. Commission of Fine Arts Ron Harrigal, Manager Design and Engraving, Philadelphia Phebe Hemphill Philadelphia Joe Menna Philadelphia Elizabeth Wilson, Assistant Director Advancement, Annual Giving, and Operations Liaison, Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum Page 4 Tammy Sudler, President and CEO Liaison, Astronaut Scholarship Foundation Thad Altman, President and CEO Liaison, The Astronauts Memorial Foundation Dr. Allan Needell, Curator of Space History Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum Linda Cook, Superintendent Weir Farm National Historical Site Christina Marts, Deputy Superintendent Marsh-Billings-Rockefeller National Historical Park Kristen Hase, Acting Superintendent Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve Laura Rose Clawson, Director of Marketing and Outreach The Nature Conservancy Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve Vester Marable, Park Ranger Tuskegee Airmen National Historic Site Francis Peltier, Former Superintendent of Virgin Islands National Park Salt River Bay National Historical Park & Ecological Preserve Karl Golovin, Public Member Page 5 C O N T E N T S SPEAKER PAGE Mary Lamin 6 April Stafford - Apollo 11 12 April Stafford - America the Beautiful 102 Linda Cook 108 April Stafford 120 Christina Marts 125 April Stafford 135 Kristen Hase 139 Laura Rose Clawson 141 April Stafford 152 Vester Marable 156 April Stafford 167 Francis Peltier 170 April Stafford 179 Page 6 P R O C E E D I N G S MS. LAMIN: Ladies and gentlemen, could we be seated so that we could begin the meeting relatively on time? (Pause.) MS. LAMIN: Good morning. Good morning, everyone. Okay. It is 9:02, and I would like to call this to order, this meeting of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee, for Wednesday, October 18th, 2017. And before I begin, I would like to introduce the members of the committee. Please respond "present" when I call your name. Robert Hoge. MR. HOGE: MS. LAMIN: Present. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. MR. ABDUL-JABBAR: MS. LAMIN: MR. JANSEN: MS. LAMIN: Present. Erik Jansen. Here. Oh, Erik. (Laughter.) MS. LAMIN: Michael Moran. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: It's a simple Page 7 word. It's one syllable. MS. LAMIN: Michael Moran. MR. MORAN: Present. MS. LAMIN: Present. Jeanne Stevens-Sollman. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. LAMIN: Donald Scarinci. MR. SCARINCI: MS. LAMIN: Dennis Tucker? Present. Right here. Dennis, are you on the phone? Not yet. Thomas Uram. MR. URAM: Present. MS. LAMIN: Herman Viola. MR. VIOLA: Present. MS. LAMIN: Heidi Wastweet. MS. WASTWEET: MS. LAMIN: Accounted for. Good morning, all. I am Mary Lamin, and I will chair today's meeting. All right. The CCAC will consider the following items today: The discussion of the letter to the secretary and the minutes from our September 19th meeting; a review of the candidate designs for the 2019 Page 8 Apollo 11 50th Anniversary Commemorative Coin Program; and finally, the theme and concept discussion for the last six coins for the 2020 through 2021 America the Beautiful Quarters Program. The notice that was issued for this meeting originally included an additional agenda item to review -- revise designs for the 2018 America the Beautiful quarter honoring the American Memorial Park in the Northern Mariana Islands. I have been informed that the Mint has subsequently decided to produce new designs for the site, which will be presented for review at a future meeting. So before we begin our proceedings, are there members of the press in attendance or on the phone? MR. HALL: Yes. I'm -- my name is Brandon Hall, and I help run Coin Update, our Mint News Blog. MS. LAMIN: Good morning, Brandon. Is there anyone else on the phone? MS. JENKINS: Hi. This is Macy Jenkins (ph) with Numismatic News. MS. LAMIN: Anyone else? Good morning. Page 9 MR. SHRONE: (ph). Yes. My name is Andrew Shrone I'm just a member of the general public, just interested. MS. LAMIN: Well, good morning to you, sir. Thank you very much. And finally, for the record -MR. TUCKER: MS. LAMIN: This is Dennis Tucker. I'm sorry, Dennis. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. TUCKER: Are you here? He is. Yes, I am. (Hold music.) UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Whoever has old music on -(Crosstalk.) MR. BROWN: Yes, this is Kevin Brown from the Bureau of Engraving and Printing. MS. LAMIN: Well, hi, Kevin. Good morning. Thank you for all of your attendance yesterday at the Numismatic Forum. Anyone else? is that correct? But we do have Dennis with us; All right. MR. TUCKER: Yes. Page 10 MS. LAMIN: Okay. And for the record, I'd also like to acknowledge the following Mint staff that are participating in today's public meeting: April Stafford, Chief, Office of Design Management; and the program managers from that office, Pam Borer, Vanessa Franck, Megan Sullivan, and Roger Vasquez; Betty Birdsong, Acting Liaison to the CCAC; and Greg Weinman, Counsel to the CCAC. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I'd also like to acknowledge that the program counsel for Apollo 11 is in the room. That's Liz Young (ph). MS. LAMIN: There you are, Liz. Hello, Liz. And Frederick Lindstrom from the Commission of Fine Arts. Welcome. All right. Do we have anything that the Mint needs to talk about? Oh, I'm sorry. Ron Harrigal is also here. Do we have anybody on the phone from Philadelphia? Is Phebe there? MS. HEMPHILL: MS. LAMIN: Yes, I'm here. Good morning, Phebe. Anyone else hanging around there with you? How are you? Page 11 MR. MENNA: Joe. MS. LAMIN: Hi, Joe. Okay. Good morning. Well -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That would be Joe Menna (ph). MS. LAMIN: Joe Menna. All right. So beginning with the Mint, are there anything -- is there anything that we need to discuss or talk about? Nothing? All right. The first item on our agenda is the approval of the minutes from the September 19th meeting, which I would like to thank Donald Scarinci for leading. Do we have any comments on the document? UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MS. LAMIN: Okay. It's accurate. Is there a motion to approve the minutes? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. LAMIN: Okay. I (inaudible). Jeanne makes a motion. Is there a second? MR. JANSEN: Second. MS. LAMIN: Erik, thank you. All right. All those in favor, signify by Page 12 saying aye. MEMBERS: MS. LAMIN: Aye. Those opposed? (No response.) MS. LAMIN: All right. It passes unanimously, and the minutes and the letters are approved. All right, April. We would like to speak -- we would like April Stafford to speak to us next about the 2019 portfolio for the Apollo 11 50th Anniversary Commemorative Coin Program. April? MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. It is Public Law 114-282, the Apollo 11 50th Anniversary Commemorative Coin Act, that requires the Secretary of the Treasury to mend and issue $5 gold coins, $1 silver coins, half-dollar clad coins, and 5ounce $1 silver proof coins in recognition of the 50th anniversary of the first manned Moon landing. The act requires that all four coins be curved, similar to the 2014 National Baseball Hall of Fame 75th Anniversary Commemorative Program. The act also requires the design on the common reverse of the Page 13 coins, the convex side, the representation of a closeup of the famous Buzz Aldrin on the Moon photograph taken July 20th, 1969, that shows just the visor and part of the helmet of Astronaut Buzz Aldrin. Candidate designs for that common reverse were reviewed in June of this year by this committee. In accordance with the act, candidate designs for the obverse, or concave side, of these coins were solicited from artists through a national public design competition. Eighteen artists' designs are being presented today. These designs are required by the act to be emblematic of the United States space program leading up to the first manned Moon landing. Required inscriptions include "Liberty," "In God We Trust," and "2019." I must stress these designs have had no modifications for coinability concerns. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MS. STAFFORD: Oh, (inaudible). Could I -- could we ask the people who are calling in to mute your phones, please? Thank you. These designs, again, have had no Page 14 modifications for coinability concerns and have had no modifications to address technical and historical accuracy issues. To aid you in your review, we supplied notes about each candidate design from our subject matter experts. This information, along with the artists' narratives, were provided to you beforehand for consideration. Lastly, since this program does not follow the standard design selection and approval process, please note that the expert jury for this competition comprised of three representatives from the CCAC and three representatives from the CFA, will meet this Friday, October 20th, to select the winning design and identify recommended modifications to that design. As such, the CCAC need not recommend a specific design today. It's more important that the expert jury have the commentary on the full portfolio. This commentary from the CCAC's discussion, as well as the CFA's discussion that will take place tomorrow, will inform the experts jury's -- the expert jury's decision on Friday. Our liaisons to the three recipient Page 15 organizations are here. We welcome Elizabeth Wilson, Assistant Director of Advancement and Annual Giving and Operations with the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum -- thank you for being here; also, Tammy Sudler, President and CEO of the Astronaut Scholarship Foundation -- thank you for being here; as well as Representative Thad Altman, President and CEO of the Astronauts Memorial Foundation -- thank you. In addition, our subject matter experts. First, we have Dr. Allan Needell, Curator of Space History at the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum. He's with us today to answer any questions. And we also have, as noted, Ron Harrigal, Manager of Design and Engraving, located in Philadelphia, to comment on any coinability concerns. Please note that these designs were also reviewed and commented on by representatives from NASA. That included Bert Ulrich, Bob Jacobs, and Bill Barry. We thank them for their contributions as well. So we will present the candidate designs listed by artist identifier. I will not read the entirety of the artists-submitted narratives, though, Page 16 again, they were provided in preparation for this meeting. Rather, I will, instead, read a condensed version of their narrative to describe the design. Okay. Moving on, first, we have Artist 167. No artist narrative was provided for this design. Artist 196, titled by the artist as From Space shot to Moon Landing. This design depicts the iconic spacesuit from the Mercury space program with the background of a crescent Moon. Artist 254, this obverse design shows a woman peering up into the sky with binoculars from the Moon in the background. The string of 1s and 0s is binary code that symbolizes the advanced technology that many dedicated created and employed in order to land astronauts on the Moon and return them to Earth. It's worth noting that the series of 1s and 0s spells the word Apollo. The circular path symbolizes the path the lunar module would have taken from the command module to the Moon and back. Artist 265, titled by the artist as Mission Accomplished. This central device is a footprint on the lunar surface left during the Apollo 11 mission. Page 17 Artist 273, a view of the Moon through the window of the Apollo 11 command module hatch. Artist 276, the artist noted this design was created to celebrate the awesome courage and skill of our glorious astronauts and "ad astra per aspera," to the stars through mighty effort. Artist 277, this design features the Apollo 11 command module with the Moon in the background, circumscribed by 13 stars. Artist 279, titled by the artist as Vision, Volition, Victory. This design is a symbolic representation of America's path to the landing -- to landing men on the Moon and includes the first American-made liquid fuel rocket, a reference to Project Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo. Artist 292, the astronaut hovers in space above the protective atmosphere and gravitational pull of the Earth as he contemplates man's final quest, the Moon. Artist 294, the artist describes the design as follows: "363 feet of gleaming white metal thundered aloft on a bright summer morning setting a new course Page 18 for mankind. This image includes a representation of the powerful engines of the Saturn V." Artist 297, this design was inspired by the words, "The Eagle has landed," and includes, indeed, an American eagle landing on the Moon. Artist 308, titled by the artist as We Chose - oh, sorry, excuse me -- We Choose to Go to the Moon. This design is symbolic of the epic journey from our home planet to the -- to our neighboring satellite. An American eagle, emblematic of the United States, is prominently depicted on a flight from the Earth to the Moon. Artist 318, titled by the artist as And Returned Safely to Earth, gives tribute to the presidential vision that inspired our country to achieve in less than a decade perhaps the greatest achievement by all mankind. The scenes, rocket blastoff and splashdown, frame President Kennedy's face and are also two significant events that frame the actual landing represented on the other side of the coin. Artist 328, titled by the artist as The Heroes Page 19 on Earth of the Apollo 11. Included in this design is depiction of the mission control room, references to the start of the Saturn V launching rocket. A satellite plate is pictured to the right, and the Moon craters in the back center the design. Artist 337, titled by the artist as The Eagle Will Land. This eagle flies forward carrying a banner in his beak with the names of the two NASA programs, Mercury and Gemini, whose engineering innovations and successes led up to the manned landing on the Moon. The Earth is in the background with a path representing the trajectory of the 1969 Apollo 11 launch. Artist 341, the figure looking up at the Moon. And this design is a symbolic personification of the focused and determined spirit of NASA. Artist 343, titled by the artist as On the Shoulder of Giants, shows three astronauts from the three programs shoulder to shoulder. One is in a Mercury spacesuit, one in a Gemini suit, and one in an Apollo suit. There are 21 stars denoting the 21 manned missions previous to the landing and represent the breadth of the American manned space program. Page 20 And finally, Artist 346. The obverse design features the journey of the Apollo command module in space and includes an image of the surface of the Moon and Earth. Madam Chair. MS. LAMIN: Thank you, April. So before we start to talk about all these things, a couple of things. Because there are three people on this committee that form a subcommittee, I'm going to ask that those three people speak last. I think that one of our jobs today is to have the CCAC inform the subcommittee members of our opinions of the art. We're not going to vote on these in a traditional manner that we will today but, rather, reflect on the art that we've seen and sort of vocalize our opinions on that. And then I will call on the three. Donald? MR. SCARINCI: Mary, why don't we suggest, in order to save time, that three people who are actually going to vote don't speak at all, I mean, because we're just informing the committee. need to inform us. The committee doesn't Page 21 MS. LAMIN: Yes, but we can have a discussion if -MR. SCARINCI: MS. LAMIN: may need to do. -- you know, for things that we And also -- MR. SCARINCI: this. Okay -- I just don't want to belabor It's -MS. LAMIN: Right. MR. SCARINCI: -- this is not going to take long. MS. LAMIN: Okay. Okay. All right. So do we have any technical questions first before we begin? I really want to commend the Mint for having the historical accuracy and the coinability along in our packets, you know, to make it easier for us. So do -- Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: This is the same format as the Baseball Hall of Fame; is that correct? Curved? MS. STAFFORD: Yes, it is -- they are curved MS. WASTWEET: And can you remind me? coins. have a rim on that Baseball Hall of Fame? Did we Page 22 MS. STAFFORD: Ron? MR. HARRIGAL: Yes, we did, yes. was -- there -- it was inset some. I mean, it It was inset slightly, but there was a border that went around. MS. WASTWEET: Was it -- MR. HARRIGAL: Yes. MS. WASTWEET: -- an actual rim? these also have a rim? And would Because some are drawn with a rim and some are not. MR. HARRIGAL: Yes, that's our -- MS. WASTWEET: And there -- MR. HARRIGAL: -- intention. The coin would be reeded like a standard coin, yes. MS. WASTWEET: MS. LAMIN: Reeded. Okay. MR. JANSEN: Okay. Thank you. Erik? You say it's going to be reeded. Is that a change from the original legislation to call (inaudible) to around the edge? MR. HARRIGAL: We have determined that that is physically not possible the way our dyes and collar configuration is with our equipment. extensive study on that. We did an And basically, as we had Page 23 configured the Baseball coin, this would be similar except with no edge lettering. MR. JANSEN: So will this be the first five- ounce with a reeded edge? MR. HARRIGAL: MR. JANSEN: MS. LAMIN: Yes, it will. Wow. Wow, indeed. Any other technical questions? Okay. Herman, would you like to start with the art that we've seen -MR. VIOLA: Well, thank you. MS. LAMIN: No, it's not. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Is this on? Press the button. There you go. MR. VIOLA: Okay. Thank you very much. You know, frankly, I'm quite excited about the Apollo program. I was one of those, like, 500 million people that was watching it on television when the Eagle landed. And so, you know, I really look forward to this design with great anticipation. But I have to say, overall, I'm disappointed in the designs. I would think that, you know, the -- Page 24 we have an opportunity here to do something spectacular, and we should do the best we can. Having said that, there are a couple that I kind of like. One is Artist 254 with the binoculars. It's -- I mean, really, that is what so many people were doing and thinking of doing looking at the heavens. And I was in the Navy when (inaudible) the very shot, and we were so excited on board the ship to say there's one of our people going up there. And we could see it really going in the horizon. Then the other one I like is 294. really is quite spectacular. To me, that Unfortunately, thanks to the technical information and historical information being received, it's not accurate. -- say what Mary said. So I want to get to I think the Mint did a real disservice to us by giving us these technical, you know, descriptions and historical analyses. And it would be nice to see that on more of the coins we look at. MS. STAFFORD: So if I could add, this image with the Saturn V launching in proximate to the Moon as depicted is not accurate. However, this could be Page 25 interpreted as the artist juxtaposing the two images. So this -- and I'm looking at Dr. Needell -- this might be representative of it lifting off from the Earth in the moments immediately after launch with the goal in the background of the -- would you like to -- can you confirm that? DR. NEEDELL: Yeah, well, I've had discussions with my colleagues about this. And although it -- this can be taken literally to depict the spacecraft in the vicinity of the Moon, it would be inaccurate. So it's a symbolic depiction of a launch with the ultimate destination in the background. MR. VIOLA: Okay. It's not a concern. Well, I do think this one is really quite spectacular. And then the other one I also liked was 343, which showed the astronauts kind of representing the three programs. Again, I thought it was really quite nice to see the stars, you know, representing all of the missions. I thought that was very creative. So anyhow, those are the designs I preferred. I'm not sure how it's all going to turn out. But again, overall, I thought they didn't measure up to Page 26 what we normally see here. Thank you very much. MS. LAMIN: Thank you, Herman. Donald. MR. SCARINCI: If there was a mechanism to reject all the designs, I would because I think this is a tragedy that we're ending up with this group of coins. And you know, I hope the takeaway maybe and the lesson, since there's nothing we can do about this -this is Congress that does this -- but I hope the takeaway, the lesson, is these competitions and these little juries really don't work. I mean, and when they do work, you know, like they did for World -- the World War I Commemorative, you know, I think that's almost, you know, an accident. I think this is more likely the kind of stuff we're going to get. And I would love -- I would love -- to see Joe or Phebe design this coin instead of these people, you know, because I think we have -- this is the greatest topic for a coin. So much time went into lobbying this by some of the members here and others. You know, there has been so many coins on this Page 27 topic minted around the world that are so much better, so much more powerful. There's nothing in here that's, you know, to write home about. There's nothing in here that's going to get an award. And the danger -- you know, it almost looks like some of these people didn't understand this was a concave coin, and they didn't take advantage of the concave coin the way the baseball commemorative did. The baseball commemorative, you know, not only won the award for most innovative because it was struck on a clad -- on clad, you know, which was -- which is, you know, one of the events that always causes me to remind Ron when he tells us what he can't do. him. I'd listen to We don't believe him anymore because Ron can do anything. (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: You know, and, you know, but not only did it win that, but it also, remember, won the dollar coin with the same design. And that's because the design made use of the concave thing. Nothing in here makes use of the concave nature of the coin itself. Nothing in here takes advantage of the Page 28 opportunity here. So I mean, you know, going through each one for purposes of the committee, since I'm not going to have anything to say about this at the end of the day, if we're stuck with this and there's no mechanism to reject it all and start again, you know, and maybe even ask our own artists to participate, you know, because this, you know, because -- Joe, I know you're on the phone. This has you written all over it. I would love to see you design this coin. And you know, look, the first -- you know, 167, this is a concave coin. to look like in a coin? I mean, what's that going It's going to be terrible. 196 is a cartoon, you know, of an empty suit. know, 254 is, honestly, I think laughable. You You know, to think anybody's going to take binoculars and see the Moon landing was ridiculous. some people do it at the time? Yes, did they do -- did Yes. But we also went under desks, if you remember, to avoid -- you know, to protect ourselves against a nuclear bomb. So just because it happened doesn't mean it made sense, all right? That makes no sense. So why perpetuate that, Page 29 right? The footprint, you know, I mean, maybe with some work, I mean, if I were to do the foot -- the footprint's probably the only one if we can't reject all the designs. has potential. And you know, I mean, the footprint It has potential, I think, if you take the surface of the Moon and take it around to the rim. You know, just extend the surface of the Moon, use the footprint because isn't that what this is really all about? It's about stepping foot on the Moon, right? I mean, that's what this is all about. So you know, I could get into this if it's -you know, if there's a mechanism to go back and tell the people, you know, give us texture here inside the cup, right, because this is going to be inside the concave, right -- inside. So take the surface of the Moon, which he started to do -- he or she started to do, extend it to the rim. You can do some really good stuff with that, and Ron can definitely strike that because it's going to be inside the cup, right? So make it rough. Now, there's examples of that. You know, the Page 30 Cook Islands, you know, I mean -- you know, they do, you know, the -- you know, these meteor things. You know, and Mars has been depicted on various coins from other countries. The lunar surface has been depicted in other countries. Lunar surface is rough. Just do that and make the foot stand out, all right? So this has potential, and it means something. You know, the other one, 273, you know, we're close, but no cigar. I mean, I think we've got the -- I think in the -- yes, right -- in the -- I kind of think this had to -- the surface, the curve on the surface, needed to go the other way, but I'm not sure -- inside the cup. I'm not sure this really does it, so I think technical people would have to look at this to see if this could work. But what I like about what the artist does here is they take it to the rim, and they have a view of a portal. You know, but again, you know, the problem for me with this is we're not landing on the Moon; we're still looking at it, all right? Done. We landed. That's the achievement. I don't even want to talk about 276. I hope Page 31 nobody does. 277, you know, again, you know, I'm a sucker for a circle within a circle within a circle, and there's a lot that could have been done with that kind of concept. This artist kind of tries to do that, doesn't succeed, but -- and it certainly doesn't do anything with the concave nature of it. I hope nobody wants to talk about 279. 292, again, we're -- we landed. there. It's -- we're I mean, that's what we're celebrating. That kind of misses it. And for that reason, 294 doesn't do it for me. 297, there are better eagles. better coins. We've done better. There are Our artists do better. 308, you know, cute -- that's all I'll say. 318, I mean, John F. Kennedy is going to look ghostly in a -- inside a cup with this image. So -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Man in the Moon. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: He looks like the man in the Moon. MR. SCARINCI: It does look like the man in Page 32 the Moon. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, it is the man in the Moon. MR. SCARINCI: It does. It's -- UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: It's the man in the Moon. MR. SCARINCI: Yeah, you know, it is what it - - so 328 hopefully nobody's going to talk about. 337, we do better eagles. 341, like, give me a break. I hope nobody talks about that. 343, you know, this person just forgot that it was concave. So I don't know where we -- I don't know where this person -- I don't know what -- maybe this person was on the Moon. 346, again, had potential inside the cup. we're not on the Moon. But We're -- you know, we're around it. So overall, I -- you know, if I were to give hope to one piece, it would be the footprint. Now, having said that, you know, Tom correctly hands me a 2008 -- Page 33 MR. URAM: 2009. MR. SCARINCI: MR. URAM: -- 2009 -- That was the first curved coin from France. MR. SCARINCI: -- 10 euro. And you know, they kind of do the footprint, and they kind of do the lunar surface on the one side, you know. But you know, with -- and they portray the curvature on the other. So yes, the footprint's been done. All of this stuff's been done, and it's been done, really, much, much, much better. these, it's a shame. And for us to do any of It's a cheap imitation of, you know, what other countries have done so much better over the years. So -- and it took us 50 years to do another Apollo 11, probably the greatest achievement in the history of the United States. And we don't have coins except for the one -- you know, except the reverses of the one set. It's just a tragedy that this not -- you know, that something about the Moon landing is not on a regular circulation strike. But that is what it is. too. This is what it is, And if there's nothing we can do to change it, my Page 34 recommendation to the committee would be, you know, try to get the footprint redone and make it look better because I think that's our only hope of anything that's decent. I think the rest of it's just junk. MS. LAMIN: Donald, thank you for your opinion. MS. STAFFORD: put into the record. Madam Chair, if I could just Specifically, I was just talking to some of the -- of these ones to the ROs, who I believe we'll hope to hear from later in the discussion. Regarding the design from Artist 254, that was based on images of people using binoculars to watch the launch, not the actual landing. I would also just note that these artists were asked per the legislation to create obverse designs that are emblematic of the U.S. space program leading up to the first manned moon landing. So some of them, literally, were trying to communicate the work that led up to it, not the event itself because that is actually represented on the reverse. MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Well, I really Page 35 appreciate you saying that. And also, what I would like to add to the record is that we have both Phebe and Joe and an incredible staff in Philadelphia that will work with whatever art is chosen to make it the best that we can possibly make because we are obliged to use one of these designs. We can't send it back to anyone. So we'll use our talent to make their talent better, okay? So Kareem, would you like to talk about this next? MR. ABDUL-JABBAR: Thank you. I remember where I was when all this happened. I was visiting my family down in the West Indies. And everybody went out at night, and they all had telescopes and binoculars and were looking at the Moon like they thought they could see something, you know. And it was -- but it was exciting, you know. And all the excitement that was around the people here on Earth that their launching is -- it -- just none of that is conveyed in this, you know. Just the people getting together and talking about it in the middle of the night and looking up -- and I remember the full moon. Page 36 They were talking about it. And people were like what's going on. And just the excitement and the ability of this event to get people to talk to each other that usually hadn't, I don't think that is conveyed. I thought that was a pretty neat aspect of this whole development, and none of it's conveyed here. So that's what I've got to say. MS. LAMIN: Thank you, Kareem. Dennis, I don't want to forget about you. Would you like to chime in here? Dennis Tucker? Dennis is not here -UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MS. LAMIN: And he wasn't -- -- at least for the moment. Robert Hoge, would you like to comment? MR. HOGE: Thank you, Madam Chair. I don't want to go through all the designs following Donald, with whom I'm pretty much in accord with his views. I think my principle observation here would be simply that these artists were not really aware of the media with which they were asked to work, as Donald Page 37 emphasized. First of all, they didn't appreciate the concavity/convexity issues. But more than this, these seem to be entirely two-dimensional images. These are people who are not thinking in terms of sculpts. Now, perhaps, had they been asked to submit plasters rather than drawings, they would have come across quite differently. But when we look at these things, shading, grayscale is entirely emphasized and in most of the -- most of these -- well, all 18 of them, and I think this is really a shame. Now, some of these have really severe problems. We look at something like an empty spacesuit floating around over a sort of uneven little circle above on the right. But also, the spacesuit in number 292, something is out on the drawing here. If that's a person inside there, it's a person that's been turned into a skeleton. I mean, this is off. Some of these are totally dependent on color. If you look at 279, we just got a bunch of little lines, stars, and it's gray. Of course, Kennedy's face, the man in the Moon, I think of the old early Page 38 film of Jules Verne, From Earth to Moon (sic) -MS. LAMIN: Right, right, right. (Laughter.) MR. HOGE: -- the man in the moon where the rocket where the rocket hits him in the cheek or something. It's just the idea is nice, you know, to think of sort of a ghostly image of Kennedy in the background of the lunar surface. But it just doesn't work. This is just a delicate drawing, which is not appropriate for a coin. And none of these are really truly appropriate for the issue. I have to agree with Donald on this. Personally, I felt that 346 was not bad. that command module. I recognize I think a lot of people who are familiar with that will see the return capsule and see something with the lunar surface. Although this one probably doesn't have the concavity issue, I think it's nice. Another one that I tried to be somewhat -- was number 273. I liked the porthole idea, this look that we see, you know, just about to get there to the lunar Page 39 surface. So that's nice. And the, you know, 328, I kind of like the idea of seeing the Moon along with the mission control. But again, I don't see how this is going to work, really, with the concave thing because the mission control is very -UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. HOGE: -- linear. the concave (inaudible). Linear. This would be lost in So I can't really say that I'm much in favor of a particular design here. MS. LAMIN: Thank you, Robert. Dennis, do we have you with us now? MR. TUCKER: MS. LAMIN: MR. TUCKER: much. Yes, can you hear me? Yes, we can. Great. Well, thank you very And I apologize for the glitch a moment ago, but I am here. And I want to thank April for the reminder to the committee that we do have on the reverse of this coin a depiction of the landing on the Moon. So I think that does give us some flexibility with the obverse. Page 40 The obverse is challenged a bit, I think, with the fact that it's going to be concave rather than convex. I mean, we think of the Moon as being a sphere, so the concavity is a bit of a challenge -- you know, finding something that's going to really take advantage of that feature. But Donald, I understand your frustration with these designs. The designs that have spoken to me are the ones that have a human element. And for that reason, I -- you know, I found myself turning away from 167, 279, and 277 and the ones that showed the technology of this event. You know, we didn't only send machines and technology to the Moon, we sent a man to the Moon. So that's the event that we are celebrating here. I actually like 254. I think it captures that excitement and that, you know, just the jubilation almost of the observation of what's going on up there in space and what the United States is doing. I was a little bit taken aback by the fact that there's binoculars. Of course, you know, we don't think of binoculars looking at the Moon. But you know, Page 41 that was part of the way that people observed the event 50 years ago, as Kareem said, with telescopes and binoculars. I think this does capture that excitement with the young woman, and I also like the fact that it is a young woman. daughter. As I've mentioned in the past, I have a And the more I can see women and girls on United States coins I think the better. That's just a personal perspective. 265 is -- I think it would work well with the concavity, as Donald discussed. imaginative design. It's not the most It has been done before. 292, I -- you know, it has the human element. And for that reason, I didn't completely discard that one. And I also was not completely adverse to the ones that used the symbolism of the eagles. thought had some promise. So 337 I 297 is utilitarian. it resembles the Eisenhower dollar. I mean, You know, it looks like a kind of a standard Congressional Gold Medal-type design. You know, it's serviceable, but I think we can do better from a design perspective. Page 42 So those are my thoughts on this portfolio. Thank you. MS. LAMIN: Thank you, Dennis. Mr. Moran, world traveler. MR. MORAN: Yes, ma'am. generalities for a minute. I'm going to talk in I think, one, there is flaw in this legislation in that it did not address the scalability in a required one design for all the various diameters. Consequently, when I looked at this and liked the footprint, I liked it for the $5 gold piece the size of a nickel. It's not going to look particularly good on a five-ounce silver coin or medal. It's just not going to -- it won't scale up -- very simple problem. Many of the others might work on the larger diameters, but they will not scale down. And that is a basic flaw in that it really restricts the number of designs that work across all those diameters. And we should work to avoid this ever again, and that means working with Congress when we see one of these acts coming up in the form of a bill so they don't put us in a box, which is where we are now. Page 43 The fact that it is concaved, to me, says that it needs to have a central design themes -- or the design theme is centered in the bottom of the bowl. You can put some relief on it and make it really look good, but these artists missed the boat on that and it's a darned shame. So what do we do? Because we basically have - - this is not a train wreck that's going to happen; this train wreck has already happened, and there's very little that we can do to fix it. I'm drawn back to the footprint simply because it does work on the $5 gold piece. And it also illustrates without saying it Neil Armstrong's statement about a small step for man and a giant step for mankind. I get it that we have to put -- the fact that we're choosing to go to the Moon is a central theme because it covers all the programs, and this design does capture the -- that moment that Armstrong stated about the step for mankind because it was bigger than the United States. While this was our accomplishment, it was our accomplishment courtesy of a lot of scientists that came over and helped us. So I'm Page 44 probably -- this is where I would recommend the committee focus, the jury, in going forward. And I'll also say somehow that the design of the woman looking up with binoculars just didn't quite get it. This is again an issue with the concavity of the design because when you look at it, all you're going to see are the binoculars. I remember going out with my two-year-old son in one of the later shoots -I'm not that old -- and setting him on my shoulder and pointing up and saying man in the Moon and trying to convey to him that there was somebody up there walking on the Moon, which there was that night. And again, it was a full moon. So I -- you know, we all shared those moments, and as Kareem stated, of the fascination of looking up there and realizing that there was a human on that moon right in that moment. And we just missed it here with this, and it is a shame. And I recommend that the committee do what they can with that footprint. MS. LAMIN: Thank you, Michael. I believe I am probably next in this group. I'd like to say that I share my colleagues' opinions of Page 45 the difficulties that we face talking about these designs. We do need to work with them. come up with something. We've got to I understand exactly what Michael is saying about scalability. This is the most important event in my lifetime for science and exploration. And again, it was as if we are designing something for a flat surface. So it's really unfortunate. I do like a couple of things about the designs that we were presented. was very jubilant to me. The girl with the binoculars I was excited. thrilled that we were doing that. I was So I liked that. I also liked the fact that it was very clever using the binary code around the rim. That was very interesting to me. I think that, even though the three-stage rocket was essentially technically not correct, I thought that that was an interesting design; however, it's a rocket that's going into a hole if it's concave. It's not coming out of something. So that's really a problem. Artist 346, that did have the technically Page 46 accurate equipment, at least we have -- in this particular one, we have the idea that something is coming toward us out of something that is concave. So that may be, in my opinion, what rescues this design. But I agree with many of my colleagues that we are going to be faced with using the footprint on 265, even though other countries have also used it. There is going to be no mistaking what that is and what that meant, and I think that the talented staff that we have at Philadelphia can make this into something across all four sizes. So those are my comments. And now I'd like to begin with talking to the members of the subcommittee. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MS. LAMIN: Hmm? UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MS. LAMIN: Heidi? Did Heidi go? Did -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Heidi. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No, Heidi hasn't UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Heidi. gone. Page 47 MS. LAMIN: Heidi, I'm sorry. I didn't -- I missed you. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MS. LAMIN: How did I do that? MS. WASTWEET: MS. LAMIN: Poor Heidi. And I have lots to say. Yeah, you do. Well, then say it. Sorry. Go. (Laughter.) MS. LAMIN: MS. WASTWEET: Okay. Thank you. I'd like to look at the first one in the packet, Artist 167. I want to make a case for this. It's rarely I disagree with Donald, but I'm going to make a case for this one. I think it's easily overlooked because of the shading that's used in this artwork, but I get to remind everyone that we're looking at designs for coins. Not -- we're not judging drawings. So what really excites me about this one is that it acknowledges all of the mathematicians because, without them, this project never would have happened. And there's a large body of people behind this program. And like April reminded us, the theme of this is what Page 48 led -UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MS. WASTWEET: Hmm? UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MS. WASTWEET: And figure. And -- And figures -- the moonbeam really draw -MS. LAMIN: Yeah. MS. WASTWEET: -- to our attention that there were men and women on the ground that were tireless in figuring out how to get this to work. The other side of this coin acknowledges the bravery of setting foot on the Moon. It's represented there, and there's no reason to represent that again on the other side of the coin when we had an opportunity to tell the entire story. And that entire story includes the mathematicians. I'm not a mathematician, so I can't vouch to the accuracy of this, and that can be explored later. But the idea there is really wonderful, and it's visually very interesting. layers together. We can have all of these Just like the Baseball Hall of Fame utilized the circle to show a baseball, then it's very Page 49 natural to say the Moon being round fits this shape very well. The fact that this is concave gives an opportunity to show that this rocket is not literally coming out of the Moon. But because we have three layers of things here -- we have the Moon, the mathematical equations, and the rocket -- it's more apparent that they are not literally in the same space, but figuratively part of the same story. MR. TUCKER: concave? Heidi, can you address that it's How is that going to look concave -MS. WASTWEET: MR. TUCKER: MS. WASTWEET: So --- in the hole? Yeah, I think it's going to work really well because, like Mary said, the rocket is coming out at us instead of going in. So just because the coin is concave doesn't mean that the sculpture has to be. So the Moon representation will be in the cup, as you say. But then that rocket is going to come out. We have some things to work with there. And if we make the base of that really, really shallow and then get deeper as we get toward the body, it's going to have a really nice effect of coming out of the coin at us. Page 50 It's going to have that illusion. And as like Mike Moran was talking about, we have the different sizes to consider. So on the smallest coin here, we're going to see the main shapes of this coin. And then on the bigger piece, then we get to see all the finite detail of the mechanisms and the equation. So there will be something to see at every size -(Crosstalk.) MS. WASTWEET: And if we have our sculptures be very conscientious about the texture of the Moon so that it doesn't become too busy, and if we're really strong with the equations, and I would -- if I were sculpting this, I would cut in -- the equations into the surface like if it were as a chalkboard. Because I'm a sculptor, when I look at these packets, I ask myself if this were my assignment, which one would I want to sculpt. And of all of these, this is the one that I would be excited to get to my desk and sculpt. I think this would be really well represented in three dimensions. Some of the other designs, they make great Page 51 drawings, but they would make horrible sculptures. And this one I think would make a really nice sculpture, and I think it would work with the shape of the coin. I think it symbolically works with all the people that were involved in the program and not just focusing on the main event of those few that got to -- their foot on the Moon. And on that note, let's talk about the footprint of Artist 265. Now, we passed around a coin, the 10 euro with the footprint. So not only is it also a curved coin, but it's also utilizing the footprint. So to do a footprint on our coin would be incredibly repetitive. And worse yet, it's not better. Why would we copy what someone else is doing and then not do it as well? That makes no sense to me whatsoever. And it's repeating the story of the obverse, that this is all about the one person who put the one footprint down and then ignores all of those people that helped get him there. And this particular layout, you have just one footprint in the middle of the coin in a very static position. There's nothing creative or artistic or fluid, dynamic about this. Page 52 So I'm going to stand and say I'm vehemently against choosing this one. This is the most boring, safe, obvious choice that we could make. And someone's already done it better, so let's not, please. Let's go to Artist 254, one of two designs in the packet that are people looking up. And on the top of my list of things that don't work on coins, near the top of that list -UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We already know a lot of them. MS. WASTWEET: -- is (inaudible) of having a face looking up and having exposed teeth. hits both of those marks. sentiment. And this Lovely drawing. It's a nice It shows the excitement of the people that were watching and on the edge of their seat. the idea of it. I like But the execution is only going to look good on the drawing. It's not going to look good on the coin. And I'm confused about the moon shape behind it, why it's that particular curve. confusing. I find that I like the creativity of the binary code, but I think that's the only thing that's going for it. Page 53 And the bottom letters are running over the body of the girl. Again, that's fine in a drawing. But on a sculpture, that doesn't work well. So Artist 341, if we can talk about that, the same thing -- face looking up with exposed teeth. a nice idea. It's a really nice drawing. It's The other problem here is it could be construed here as a portrait of a specific person, which is not … If we can go to -- back to Artist 328. Now, the idea of this one also talks about the people that allowed this program to really happen. artistically, it's very static. things put together. But It's just a collage of I don't get the human element the way I do with the handwritten mathematical formulas from the other design that we talked about. This one, to me, just is simply unattractive in my eyes. I think the eagles are better placed with other themes. They don't have any particular place here that's unique. I see a lot of eagles. Design for Artist 343, I find this one a bit mechanical as well. The gesture of the figures -- and I've talked about this in the past -- gesture is very Page 54 important. It needs to be -- people don't look excited about what they're doing. And we have on the other side of this coin an astronaut in uniform, sort of just repeating the same instead of telling the whole story. Artist 346, I think this has potential. Again, it's telling more about how we got there, but it's not as creative, I think, as it could be. Artist 294, if we could look that. I think Mary had a great point about this flying away from us instead of flying out of the coin. So when we picture this as a curved coin, it's not going to come out of that curve. It's going to be flying into the curve. And the shading on the Moon, I don't know how that was intended to be sculpted. And the way it fades gently into the lighted area, that's clearly not someone that's thinking in three dimensions. So it's relying on that shading to show the contrast and interest in this design, and it's not a clear path to sculpture. And it is a little confusing, like, the juxtaposition of the two subject matters. If we could go to 292, I like this, that this is stylized. But I think it has a lot of other issues Page 55 like the fact that it could be misconstrued that there was this sort of tethered loading that happened on this launch, which I believe did not happen. So I think that this just isn't going to work for this particular program, but I wanted to call out that I thought it was an interesting drawing. And it makes an attempt to draw it as a sculpture instead of just a twodimensional. So that completes my comments. And I'm going to say that my favorite is, by far, 167. MS. LAMIN: Thank you, Heidi. Really interesting commentary, especially about 167. Tom, you're sitting next to me, so you're going to go next. MR. MORAN: Mary, could I ask a question MS. LAMIN: Oh, sure, Mike, go ahead. MR. MORAN: -- to the committee members are we before -- in terms of comments? MS. LAMIN: I'm -- we -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MS. LAMIN: The jurors. I'm now into the sub -- in -- Page 56 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MS. LAMIN: -- the jurors. MR. MORAN: Yeah. The jurors. Before we get to that, I'd like to ask the Mint staff if -- are we working against a legislative mandate in terms of a deadline, an artificial deadline on this work? What is driving the completion of this project besides 2019? MR. WEINMAN: to talk about this. Well, I don't know if you want This is, in fact -- I mean, we're -- obviously, it's a 2019 -MS. LAMIN: Turn your mic -- MR. WEINMAN: Sorry. Obviously, the legislation requires when this coin must be issued and when it can be put up for sale. So we're under that type of deadline. As far as a manufacturing deadline, I'll let Ron talk about what it is in order to meet our legislative schedule. MR. HARRIGAL: Well, as you know, the -- we are doing developmental work to perfect the curved, three-inch coin. We obviously can't go into production until we get the designs approved by the secretary. Page 57 With that being said, yes, eventually, there will be a deadline problem. At this point in time, you know, we have everything planned out. We have other issues that we have to work out internally. But at some time, we will hit that midnight time frame where it will be a big staring problem. The big issue that we have internally is manufacturing the three-inch dyes. And as you know, on this program, we have to make up to 100,000 three-inch coins. Those dyes cannot be made in our conventional method of the hubbing process that we did for massproducing dyes. We have to individually machine every dye. So we are preparing to do that. And eventually, you know, there will be a timeline issue that we're dealing with. But at this point in time, we don't have that -- we're not up against that deadline right now. MR. MORAN: Well, just, Ron, I think that in terms of these designs, you won't have to worry about that 100,000-coin limit on that large three-inch silver piece. There were -- I just wanted to -- for the Page 58 committee's benefit, the jury's benefit, I wanted them to be aware if there were any real pressing deadlines, so it's been answered. MR. WEINMAN: Actually, one more -- there is another point to be raised. Can you hear me? UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MS. LAMIN: MR. WEINMAN: MS. LAMIN: MR. WEINMAN: MS. LAMIN: MR. WEINMAN: Yeah, that's good. Yes. It's not on. Oops. It is on. Okay. There is one other point that they raised, which is a very valid one. The competition involves expenses of money. And so if we were to theoretically go back out and do it again, that would add significantly to the cost of the program, which could have an effect on the surcharges because, you know, it of course has to recover its cost before any surcharges can be paid. So that is a factor in a program where a competition is legislated such as this one. Page 59 MR. SCARINCI: this down. right. Great. Great. Just I write And you know, in 2019, we'll see if I'm But I'd be absolutely in shock if more than 25,000 of these things gets sold. And I just think it -- this -- there's just nothing here that's going to sell. So if people are planning on making money for this thing, forget about it. MR. MORAN: Donald's right. (inaudible) sells coins, and this is not going to sell. MS. LAMIN: Okay. I'd like to hear from the members of the subcommittee. Tom, would you like to go next? MR. URAM: Thank you, Madam Chairman. First of all, I just want to thank the members and colleagues here in the CCA that elected me to be part of the jury for this. It's very special when -- I have a number of thanks you's, actually, because our colleague, Mike Olsen (ph), was the guy who really took this thing from nuts to bolts. We didn't get a Route 66, but we did get them. We did the Apollo. And I remember the night that it was passed, and we were still testing real late at Page 60 night and trying to hope that that bill got through at the end of the day. And I know a number of you also worked on it, but we work hard to get to the point where we are today. And I also want to -- I just think that Mike deserves that thank you because he went to NASA. He did a lot of lobbying himself and on his own time and part of our committee at that time to bring us to bring us to where we are today. I also want to thank all the people who participated in providing portfolios. As a volunteer - - and all of us are volunteers -- but particularly in this effort, we went through almost 200 portfolios to come down to 20, or thereabout. And not only did we go through those portfolios, but we ranked them as well to get them to the point of where they are. And I'm only saying this so that we have a perspective and appreciate the artists who did what they did here. Now, there might have been the miscommunication of the plan, which there obviously is, and the designs. that. And I'm not going to go into all of I'm not going to mention creepy Kennedy or Page 61 anything -(Laughter.) MR. URAM: -- or anything like that. But I think that I want to just thank the artists that took the time because they did take the time to provide these designs. And they did take the time to put some effort into what was given to them. And once again, maybe from Don's comments, we need to maybe communicate more when the legislation comes down the type of designs and coins. at the Mint has. And they don't have any experience The -- they're doing it from an artist perspective. And that was also very difficult in the rankings in the portfolios that we went through because some of them were basically just graphic artists for some of them. tell. Some of them were youth. You could And some -- you know, and I think Jeanne would agree and Erik would agree that, you know, when we went through those portfolios, it was difficult to capture the fact that some of them could do coin designs. you know, that was very difficult. congratulate them for that. So I do want to And Page 62 Also, I passed that euro coin up not to say that it has been done once, but to say that here's what it could look like. But maybe the Mint and Joe at the Mint and Ron, you guys could make it better. here's a starting point. I mean, We see where a footprint is. And Donald mentioned about having the whole plan should -- in the surface of the Moon, and I think that would sell. I'm not worried about it selling. I think that NASA and the benefactors, all of them are going to sell the coin. I think it will. And if you -- I'm not going to get into any of the other designs because there are just so many different flaws on what we're trying to accomplish. But with the footprint, Dennis mentioned about having a human element. We have the head on the -- you know, we have the mask and the astronaut suit and the image, and then you have the foot. So you have from head to toe, if you're looking at it from a person's point of view, if you look at it as being the full person. And you have some creativity and some thought. And I would just ask the Mint if they go -- if the CFA and us as jurors end up picking this one to be Page 63 able to sculpt it in a way that you could add a little bit more to it without causing any controversy and to make it what it needs to be because I think it will be fine. The one thing I would do, just like the rocket that Heidi talked about being in the center, I think that's the major flaw there, is that it's dead center, just like this one's dead center. I would twist this and turn it to maybe 2:00 o'clock, and then that'll give you the manufacturing comments where -- about the references on the bottom there on that. I think if the Mint would just turn it a little bit, create some flow when you make the curve coin, it'll create some motion, and it will enable it to not look so stark. The other good part that I like about this coin is that it does reference Mercury and Gemini. And those two projects will probably never have a coin to begin with. So the fact that those are all also on there leading up to what we have is very relevant and purposeful for what we're trying to achieve. So you know, maybe it doesn't need to be this wide, this stark. But I think we have a starting Page 64 point, unlike we don't have any starting points on these other designs. So as a juror, I've listened to my colleagues. Obviously, I'm -- you understand how I feel about it. And now I'll turn this over, Madam Chairman, to hear from Jeanne and Erik. MS. LAMIN: Erik. MR. JANSEN: Thank you. the same thank you's from Tom. And I'll reiterate This idea, I was proud to say, appeared in one of our annual reports a number of years ago as an idea advanced from the CCAC. don't think that gives us rights to claim it. And I I'm just glad that we were on board for this idea because I think it is one of the iconic achievements in the human race in modern times for sure. And to miss this in 2019 I think would have been to really have taken (inaudible). And thanks to the committee for putting me on the jury for this. I worked with Tom and Mike Olsen, who just deserves a tremendous amount of credit for his sweat and the effort he put in walking this through the halls of Congress. It's a real, real high bar to Page 65 achieve. He got it done. It was passed and voted around (ph), I think, in the session. But nonetheless, we got it done when a lot of things weren't getting done. So my thanks to Mike for that hard work and to the Mint for managing another public submission process and to the artists who self-selected and sent their art in. So thank you, thank you, thank you. I would ask that, although the Mint doesn't lobby the Hill, I do think feedback is separate from lobbying. You know, and I think it is -- at this point, we've done a handful of public submissions, and I love the idea of public submissions. I love, love, love the idea; however, loving the idea and pulling it off are often two different things. And I think it would be very positive for future public submissions if we could send some feedback in the form of -- I guess the overarching thought is conditioning the artists to think threedimensional. As we were drafting and evaluating AIP artists, that's one of the issues that always came up - these are great artists, but they're not sculptors. Page 66 And we get interesting line drawings, but we don't get three-dimensional productivity out of them. So that would be the number one thing. Turn that into fewer words so the message isn't that eluded when it lands on the Hill that help us help the process to get us some more productive work. if that means we demand plasters. narrow a constraint. And I don't know Maybe that's too But I think in this case we were too wide in our lack of constraints, and the challenges accrue to us accordingly. This is a difficult set of drawings. I guess the other piece of feedback to the Hill would be one size doesn't fit all. And I've heard comments today, and I'm certainly going to carry those forward. But I do have my own thoughts on this that I want to put in. But a single design for a large three- inch pallet is really hard to also make that work on three-quarters of an inch. And the goal is just really hard because the dynamic range of a design just -- it's almost impossible to span the range of pallets. So that would be the other piece of feedback, is to please don't lock us into one size fits all because it Page 67 doesn't. When I looked over these designs, it was pretty obvious that this was going to be difficult. And without getting into a review of each item, I see two paths here. moment ago. And I'll reiterate what I said a I will carry forth the thoughts of the entire committee here. I see two paths. One is the default path, that is to say okay, here's what we have to work with. Where do we go from here? the footprint. And the default path is to I don't especially like it. think it's as creative. I don't I think it's been done and not well on other curved coins. So in that case, I think it is an opportunity lost for this design, and that's really disappointing. The other path is Heidi's path. I think Artist 167 gives us a DaVinci-esque drawing. way too much here to get on the gold. There's And so it defaults almost to a technical question. Do we have to use the exact same sculpt for the gold or the smallest pallet as we do the large? Because the dynamic range of this just doesn't work on gold. Or did -- I'm Page 68 looking at 167, not 196. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. JANSEN: There we go. not going to get the equations. going to get the trajectories. Sorry. Obviously, you're You're probably not With some luck, you'll get a rocket which I think has a very interesting perspective to it against the concavity of the strike. I do like the dominance of the lettering around the perimeter. And on the gold, you would get -- you'd get a rocket with maybe a lunarscape behind it. And maybe the sculpt should be -- could be -- I don't want to use the word flatten it. But some of the detail could be essentially let to disappear into the sunlight. On a larger pallet, this could work really, really well. Now, technically, that may be very difficult to save the dye on this. Ron, I'm feeling your pain. pain of the fine lines and dye lines. I'm feeling your And what do you think the dye lines will be on this thing? a clue? Do you have A thousand? MR. HARRIGAL: We don't at this point. I Page 69 mean, you know, ultimately, we're going to get to the point where we're going to test the actual designs -MR. JANSEN: MR. HARRIGAL: production. Yeah. -- before we go into But you know, the three-inch, well, obviously, we've never done a coin like that. really know. We don't We have data from the baseball series. But you know, these designs are radically different. Relief will be about the same as on the Baseball Hall of Fame coins. It's going to be lower than our standard, for sure. And we're just going to have to work with it. mean, it's -- like I said, right now, the starting point, the base line, is what we had on Baseball Hall of Fame. That's about all I can add right now. MR. JANSEN: So -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Greg is going to answer the question. MR. WEINMAN: question. Yeah, I can answer your The legislation speaks of singular design and a common obverse and common reverse. I Page 70 MR. JANSEN: common. Okay. So the design would be But in fact, it could be modified in its preservation of detail? MR. HARRIGAL: Actually, the way we would execute it would be for the smallest pallet because that's where your fine details would be -MR. JANSEN: Right. So that would just make it an extremely high resolution, three-inch -MR. HARRIGAL: I mean, yeah, when you get to three-inch, you're going to get a little more detail on the subtleties of, like, the landscape and that sort of thing. But the only real technical difference will be the denomination, the notion on the other side. MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: Yeah, Don. MR. SCARINCI: MR. WEINMAN: MS. LAMIN: here, right? -- with a legal question? Sure. (inaudible). MR. SCARINCI: to interpret? Erik, can I follow up -- Greg, could -- is it possible Because I think Erik's on to something You know, you go with the footprint for the smaller gold, and you go with this one for the Page 71 large one. But can we interpret that language from Congress as a common -- you know, as basically saying there are two parts of a common design? Can we be -- do you think we can be creative and get away with it, I think, to -MR. WEINMAN: determination. I'm hesitant to make a legal I'm sorry. I'm hesitant to give a legal opinion sitting here -MR. JANSEN: This is what you get when you have a lawyer talking to a lawyer. MR. SCARINCI: MR. WEINMAN: I understand. I don't know that we've -- go ahead with … MS. YOUNG: I would just add that the language in the legislation is the design of the common obverse, not a common design. But it's the design of the common obverse, which means all of the obverses are the same. MR. SCARINCI: See, so if by the time the committee meets again, you could -- you -- we could -if we could do -- take two designs, then we could solve this issue because this won't work on the small gold -MR. JANSEN: Yeah, it's problematic. Page 72 MR. SCARINCI: not going to work. You're 100 percent right. It's But you know, if our artists and, you know, if the Mint is going to allow our artists a lot of creativity, I mean, I love what Don Everhart did with the World War I coin. If you remember, when we did the World War I coin, we were all worried that that was either -- that was going to be a -- that was either going to be an award winner, or it was going to be the biggest flop we've ever done, depending on the sculpt. And Don Everhart's last sculpt for the U.S. Mint of that particular design was just -- you know, what a wonderful send-off. You know, what a wonderful final sculpt, you know, for Don Everhart while he was here. That -- he really pulled it off. And I think -- you know, now I've got total confidence in you, Ron, that you're going to be able to, you know, make -- you know, to carry that off in the manufacture. That's a great coin -- great coin. So you know, this, if our artists are given -you know, as long as we're -- we don't hold our artists back and we say okay, this is the concept, now do whatever you need to do and make it better, I know that Page 73 Phebe and Joe -- I have total confidence in our artists that they can take these designs and really make them pop and really do something, you know, better than what's the -- and maybe they don't even follow the design literally. I don't think they have to. I think they have a lot of flexibility to change the designs so as long as they use the basic of it. We could still save this. savable. This is still And if we can go with the two designs, that was a great idea, Erik -- great idea. MR. JANSEN: I got lucky again, I guess. The comment in the technical review of this that it should be a difficult proof, I'm not sure I agree with that. As Heidi said, I think the real key to calming this design down is going to be to give us nice, flat, polishable in a proof context, ultimate play (ph), sort of, and to go very light, but clearly a textured in a very shallow relief sense. The uplands of the Moon -- Heidi, you want to put a better description on what you meant by that? MS. WASTWEET: Okay. I would not recommend polishing any surface of the Moon. I think that that Page 74 needs to be one texture. MR. JANSEN: The entire Moon? MS. WASTWEET: MR. JANSEN: One -- yeah. So -- MS. WASTWEET: If you want to pull something to be polished, it could be the infused equations. could be the lettering. MR. JANSEN: It But I wouldn't polish -- It wouldn't go for what I'll call the plagues on the Moon there. MS. WASTWEET: You wouldn't -- No, it would make it look like oceans. MR. JANSEN: Okay. All right. So you'd go just superlight and ultra-superlight, if I can -MS. WASTWEET: MR. JANSEN: Sure. -- describe it that way. MS. WASTWEET: Yeah. And there's nothing saying that we absolutely have to polish any of it. could be just all frost. MR. JANSEN: There's no -- Is there -- is it possible that this could almost be done more reverse-proof than proof? MS. WASTWEET: It Yes, it could. Page 75 MR. JANSEN: So invert the idea there? MS. WASTWEET: MR. JANSEN: Theoretically, yes. Those are the two paths I see. What I hear from the committee is largely default to the footprint. But the best outcomes in me is willing to take a chance on 167. Thank you. MS. LAMIN: Thank you, Erik. Jeanne, you're up. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you, Madam Chair. I have to agree with my colleagues on this. And Donald was very loquacious of his comments, and I couldn't help but hold all of that to my heart because, again, it's a -- it's -- this is an opportunity to do something phenomenal. And I think about this project as being a lot like Boys Town where we had the opportunity to tell the Boys Town story on six sides. And on this particular amazing project, what we had accomplished 50 years ago, we are only -- we are limited to two sides when we could have had an opportunity to tell this story if Congress had given us that opportunity. Page 76 So I was very -- or I am -- very intrigued with Heidi's interpretation of 167 because I totally limited -- eliminated that because it was too much information on a small pallet. However, if we had the opportunity to tell the story of what we did, tell that history, and put it on, as Michael suggested this would maybe be more interesting than the footprint on the large three-inch pallet, I would go for this. I think this could be very usable. However, we may have to default to that footprint. And if we did, I think we need to remember that this is our footprint. footprint. This is not France's This is our footprint on the Moon, okay? So I have no problem to use that. I like the fact that this is going to be -you know, the footprint is an endpoint. Somebody holds this coin, it's going to be the footprint we're going to hold in our hand; however, the design is a little static. I love the fact that we have the phases of the Moon on here. gold. We're probably going to lose that in the I think we are recognizing the other missions, which is important. Page 77 But the way have In God We Trust 2019, that's boring. If we could send this back to our Mint artists to kind of make that footprint 2:00 o'clock and maybe change where those things are, we could have a phenomenal piece, which we have asked for so many times -- something simple. And this artist maybe is not in our program, but at least it answers that simplicity. And that is what I think is important in this portfolio. I really don't want to go through all the designs. that. I think most of our colleagues have done Some of them are a little embarrassing because they're not understanding that this is a concave surface. But that footprint does say that, and we can just press it like a stamp. And I'm -- I think this is the one we have to go with. And if we could possibly wiggle that, you know, 167 onto the three-inch medal, I think that could be fun. And then we might have a program. And if there's some way -- and I -- Betty, I don't know. stone. Are they -- this is, like, locked in But if there's some way we can sort of amend Page 78 that bill, or can we say -- can we do that? MR. SCARINCI: The lawyers are going to interpret it. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Okay. And the lawyers interpret. And you know, this is really -- this is, like, so important. This is so important. I think we have a problem working with the Hill because they kind of miss what we're doing. When we're looking at art, they're looking at words. They're looking at law. They're looking at -- they forget what we have to do. And they bind us, and especially in this particular program, with two sides for all -- it doesn't fit all these -this -- the one size does not fit all with this project. So that's all I have to say. MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Thank you. Tom, do you want to make a comment? MR. URAM: Ron. Madam Chair, I just wanted to ask If -- on the footprint, would that be able to be incused enough that you could see some really strong feedback of the motion through the coin and through the Page 79 -MS. LAMIN: MR. URAM: Dust coming --- right, through the motion there? Can you make any comment on that? Would it be -- number one, would it be incused, and could it be? MR. HARRIGAL: Well, you know, I obviously would discuss that with the sculptor engravers. We really haven't gotten to that point of analyzing this design in that level. And you know, designs can be raised, or they can be incused. We have to discuss this one. I think, problematically, we looked at this. And you know, having a fadeout into the proof-polished field, that needs to be defined. that. You need an edge on That's technically what I see one of the main issues with this one. But I mean, we would look to see, and within the limited amount of relief that we could put on it, how to incuse and raise. MR. URAM: As far as the proof and field and so forth, I think we need to have it where that -- it goes all the way out, not having any proofed fields as far as plain as what -- as it is right now. It needs Page 80 to be all the dirt, in my opinion. MS. LAMIN: MR. URAM: I like it. All the dirt, yeah. Yeah, I think all the -- (Crosstalk.) MR. URAM: You know, if we can't have it, it'll just look too stark, as what we were talking about and obviously, the proportion of what has to be done, right, and all of that. But I'm just trying to get some motion into the coin when -- I'm just making a comment that I hope the engravers in your team would put some thought if this is the one that is chosen by the jury that we can modify it enough to really get a - I don't think you want to have the negative space that you have there if -- particularly on a three-inch. MR. HARRIGAL: Yeah, and I understand that. mean, the one thing -- and I'm not really speaking for Legal on this, but the legislation does require proof and uncirculated, so just leaving that on the table. So we definitely have to find some differentiation between the two. MR. URAM: And getting to the comment on the gold piece, maybe the negative space does work there. I Page 81 But then again, you're changing the design, and it gets back to -- and the other thing that -- everything all being the same. But either way, if you don't use the negative space, it's going to look fine on the $5. It'll look fine on the three-inch planchet as well. Thank you. MR. HARRIGAL: Thank you. MR. MORAN: Mary? MS. LAMIN: Yes, Michael. MR. MORAN: One last comment? MS. LAMIN: You may. MR. MORAN: Then I'm running out of coffee and MS. LAMIN: Yeah, running out of steam. MR. MORAN: All right. -- to 167. Okay. Let's go back, April, I think that we are dealing with legislation that demands a common design across all four diameters. On the other hand, it is not exact in what it defines as common. I think you could very easily finesse this by starting with the $5 gold piece and going the opposite direction from what Ron suggested, which is that you lay the detail in on the smallest one first. Page 82 But add the detail. Start with the rocket itself, polish, and the Moon in the background frosted. And then move forward and add additional details as you go toward the larger planchet because Heidi's right. And this is one of the reasons I got frustrated with these designs when I was looking at them. 167 works. It works beautifully on the big planchet. So let's be creative in how we solve this problem. And I think there's -- if the Mint's council down there will let the committee, the jury to do this, I think that you could come up with a progressive addition of details that would also encourage sales of all four to the numismatic community because they're going to want to get the detail as it adds up. So I think Erik has really hit on something, and I'd like to get that into the public record. I hope that's a possibility. MS. LAMIN: Congratulations to the two of you for coming up with that. Erik? MR. JANSEN: And I might add I'm going to disagree with the opinions that were expressed here. I Page 83 think, Don, in the vein, where the -- you take the formulas, you incuse and polish those formulas -- and honestly, maybe the formulas -- maybe go to two formulas or three, or maybe use different formulas. I'm a mathematician. sense to me. Those formulas actually make But -- MS. LAMIN: Great. (Laughter.) MR. JANSEN: -- I think incused and polished in a three-inch diameter -- I hate to say this, Ron -bar the doors. MS. LAMIN: Okay. MR. SCARINCI: Mary, can I say something? One last thing that maybe Dennis Tucker I wish would say as a numismatist -- Dennis, if you're listening -- just by way of information for people who may or may not know this, there is another way to make money, assuming you're looking to make money, all right? And that way is to create a relic metal by taking a tiny, tiny, tiny little spec of lunar soil and mixing it in with the metal. (Laughter.) Page 84 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: Oh, Don. Those things sell. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You've hit a new low. MR. SCARINCI: Those things sell. Flown space metals bring, you know, thousands and thousands of dollars -- flown space metals. Regular struck space metals bring 20 bucks, all right? So things with pieces of the metal of spacecraft that flew bring decent money, bring good money. Just regular coin -- just regular metals bring nothing. MR. JANSEN: So -- So that is a crazy -- MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: It is crazy. -- incredibly wonderful idea. MR. SCARINCI: It's crazy, but if they want to make money, given the -- these designs, this is the other way to do it. MR. JANSEN: MS. LAMIN: MR. URAM: That is a crazy wonderful idea. Tom has one more comment. Since we're talking about money, making money, especially for the stakeholders -- and what this is all about as well, is not only Page 85 commemorating it, but hopefully that the stakeholders through their scholarships or whatever efforts -- the mintage figures as it relates to all of these coins. And we know what happened. We can go on and on, on other issues of what had happened. But I'd like the Mint to consider, particularly on the half. We know what the mintages are and what we can achieve. wall. But we seemed to hit the I believe the half dollar in this case, which is always a tough coin to sell for the stakeholder, but the mintage is, like, 700,000 and we usually sell it around 500, which leaves about a million bucks not going to the stakeholders. And I would like maybe if the Mint -- remember we did the four Kennedy dollars and put them out there at regional (ph)? In the same vein that we're talking about making money, maybe those extra 200,000 should be part of a portfolio with an Apollo stamp or something else or a Kennedy half dollar from each of the mints, something that you could then tie Kennedy into as it relates to the Kennedy half with this particular program. And so we all -- you know, that leaves -- Page 86 that gets the stakeholders about another million dollars, and it gets rid of our 200,000 that we can never get rid of for collectors. So I think making some marketing thoughts here as it relates to pairing, particularly the half -- I don't think you're going to have a problem selling any of the others. But I think, particularly the halves, you could do the Denver, the San Francisco, Kennedys and different -- along with one of the Kennedy half dollars to match. I don't know. That's just -- thank you, Madam Chairman. MR. MORAN: Tom, one other thing. dates down below of 69-19. You put the That means all the Kennedy half collectors have to buy it. (Laughter.) MR. URAM: MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Okay. Good idea. Jeanne. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you. One thing I think we overlooked, at least I did, I'd like to hear what the stakeholders' opinion -- Page 87 do they have here an opinion on any of these designs because you're the ones that are going to really be the ones that hopefully make the money. And we are coming to this table with designs in mind, and you're coming to the table with perhaps something else. And I would like to hear what you have to say. MR. ALTMAN: Well, Thad Altman with the Astronaut Memorial Foundation. First, I'd like to thank the committee. incredibly impressed with this process. I'm And Donald, you would be a great judge on America's Got Talent. (Laughter.) MS. LAMIN: Don't even go there. (Laughter.) MR. ALTMAN: I -- Heidi, I'm with you on 167. I spent a lot of time talking to a lot of -- with a lot of the rocket scientists and the space pioneers, and that jumped out at me. I even felt it had a 3D dimension with the concave Moon, with the Saturn V coming out. But there were hundreds of thousands of people who worked on the program. I think the formulas in the Page 88 background are brilliant. It does sort of look reminisce of a Renaissance-era architectural rendering of buildings, which shows the -- some of the graphics. So I love the formulas in the background. I love the contours. It looks to me like the Moon is geographically correct -- geologically correct. And it does give personality to the Moon, some of the real features. I think I liked the idea of the footprint, too, and maybe having two separate if that's possible because, you know, I look -- I've looked at a lot of coins. And what happens when you take the -- see the little gold ones are beautiful and such detail, then you pick up the big one and it looks kind of flat or common. It's cartoonish. details. There's not a lot of So your comments about that are just brilliant. I will leave here today feeling like we're in really good hands. At first, it got really scary. (Laughter.) MS. LAMIN: MS. SUDLER: Donald does that. Hi. I'm Tammy Sudler with the Page 89 Astronaut Scholarship Foundation. I want to thank all of you. Donald, I have to say I like your comment about sprinkling something flown in space into this, especially those half coins because I think all of our space community will buy that in a heartbeat and sell out that way. I'm glad where at least we're looking like we might be ending around the 167 or the Moon print because everything else, I think, does a disservice to the program -- the Mercury, the Gemini, and Apollo. And I would hate to go back to those astronauts having to explain that those are the best that came out of the whole competition. That said, I do like Heidi's idea of looking at 167. done. I like more with the blend if that can be I think from -- when I look at this, I look at it from what's going to sell. And in our space community, which is another avenue we're trying to focus on to bring not just the coin collector, but the other general population and everything, I think you have to keep a strong element of space with it. And Page 90 the rocket, the Saturn V, is historical. it's done at Kennedy. You know, We hold a lot of events there. The Mercury 7 who founded us, they did their talks underneath there. You know, Buzz Aldrin recently just did his gala as well underneath there. We are looking at 2019 of having a gala, working with (inaudible) to have the gala kick off 2019, the 50th anniversary celebration underneath the Saturn V. So to me, that really talks to everything that not only happened with the program, but where it ends today. And also having the mathematicians and things, they often get forgotten. And as my colleague said, it was 400,000 people who made the space program work. wasn't just the lucky three guys. It wasn't the lucky brand of one who got to walk on the Moon. everybody. It It was And I think if we can find a way to honor the Apollo 1 and the lives that were given, it's all of the people who did all the work leading up to Apollo 11. So I thank all of you guys for putting your time into that and really thinking about the whole program as well as what's going to sell at the end. Page 91 And Donald, I really hope they can find a way to sprinkle in an -(Laughter.) MS. SUDLER: DR. NEEDELL: So … I'm going to limit my comments to the technical issue and thank you all for all of the considerations on the other thing. There is a concern I have -UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Could you introduce yourself to the -DR. NEEDELL: Oh, yeah. I'm Allan Needell. I'm the Apollo curator at the Smithsonian. We had mentioned this concern with respect to another of the drawings. And that is that Saturn V took off from Earth, not from the Moon. -- you just have to be aware of that. So again, not But it also provides, I think, a possible solution, especially if there were the steps on the smaller coins and this one that you can have the Earth in the background on the larger coin, which would then somehow signify that this was a mission that came from the Earth, went to the Moon, and then came back. Page 92 The geometry, the standard geometry, on this thing is absolutely fine. I had commented on the technical comments that this comes from a stage Life Magazine photograph. It wasn't actual calculations. But I don't think that that matters -MS. LAMIN: DR. NEEDELL: MS. LAMIN: We'll hear about it. -- so much. Hmm? We'll hear about it if the -- if it's not accurate. DR. NEEDELL: Oh, it's -- this is basically a reproduction of a big black door that was -- and then that photographed and they were -MR. JANSEN: I don't think the artist necessarily said these equations are central -MS. LAMIN: MR. JANSEN: DR. NEEDELL: MR. JANSEN: DR. NEEDELL: MR. JANSEN: But I think that the --- to the design. Yeah, these are --- applies equations to -These are standard geometry --- to give credit to the -- UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: speaking. He -- Generally Page 93 MR. JANSEN: MS. LAMIN: MR. JANSEN: MS. LAMIN: MR. JANSEN: -- yeah, generally speaking. But it should be relevant to -Relevant, but -Right. -- trust me. There are more equations of equal (ph) relevance. MS. LAMIN: DR. NEEDELL: Okay. So those are -- my technical comment is that if this seemed to indicate that the Saturn V took off from the Moon, any of the technically knowledgeable people will know that that's false. MS. WILSON: Hi. I'm Elizabeth Wilson with Air and Space Museum, and I concur with the comments made by my fellow representatives from the receiving organizations. I will say I tried. I asked Alan Bean twice if he would consider submitting a design for consideration because I think to have an Apollo astronaut actually submit a design -MS. LAMIN: MS. WILSON: Wow. -- selected -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah. Page 94 MS. WILSON: He didn't do it. (Laughter.) MS. WILSON: But I concur. And where we ended up with 167 or the footprint, I mean, the footprint really -- there's -- I don't have any concerns that that is too limiting about representing the three astronauts or the Apollo program astronauts. that does symbolize the whole program. I think So I don't share concerns about that leaving anyone out who participated in the program. But I concur with where we ended up between those two final designs. MS. LAMIN: Thank you very much. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Thank you. So after this rather robust discussion of what we have in front of us, I'd like to take a 15-minute break, and then we will talk about the remaining points from America the Beautiful. (Off the record.) MS. LAMIN: All right. We are back from -- except for Mr. Uram, we are back to continue our discussion today. But before we get to America the Beautiful design discussion, Ron Harrigal would like to Page 95 have something -- would like to say something about the Apollo. MR. HARRIGAL: Yeah. I know that we had a lot of discussion on design from Artist 167. And you know, prior to these designs in this meeting, we did caucus amongst ourselves and filled out the above coinability and what can translate into the design and what can't. And with this one particular design that is being talked about with the fine lines and the equation and that, they would have to be greatly simplified or possibly not even be able to be shown on the design on all four of the planchet sizes that we have. want to leave that with the committee. I just There are definitely coinability concerns with that, and that if you -- if we do end up with that design, that it may -there may be a different rendition with the equation and that sort of thing that we would have to deal with. So … MS. LAMIN: Thank you, Ron, I -- because I think, Mike, if your point, if I understood it correctly, was the smaller the coin was simpler. And as we got to the larger sizes, it became a more complex Page 96 tactical design. Is that not correct? MR. MORAN: Exactly, Mary. I don't even worry about the formulas in the $5 gold piece. MS. LAMIN: Right, right. MR. MORAN: I would (inaudible) being the MS. LAMIN: Right. MR. MORAN: That's all I'd put in there along rocket. with some background of the Moon and then just -MS. LAMIN: Right. MR. MORAN: -- build it up as we get to the -- MS. LAMIN: But it's right there -- Ron, it goes on record to sort of reign us in from all of those kinds of things and to make us aware of what can be done. I don't know what we're doing with metal debris from a space program. But anyway, thank you very much, Ron. MR. HARRIGAL: MS. LAMIN: Okay. All right. I'd like to call on April to begin the discussion. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: to … Jeanne was going Page 97 MS. LAMIN: I'm sorry, Jeanne. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: for Ron. I just had a question Don't let me go too long, or I'll forget what I was wanting to ask you -- oh, and also with legal counsel. Is it -- can we interpret that as making for -- it would actually be similar but different designs MR. WEINMAN: Simplify. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: -- to simplify the gold. And then will we be able to on the silver three-inch planchet to make those lines? I mean, can we do that even if they were simplified a bit? I'm trying to think if it were -- if the line were not incuse but, you know, if you had to draft a little bit of (inaudible) in the draft (inaudible) a two-degree draft on that line, would that be able to allow the coin to be released from the press? MR. HARRIGAL: I think we have a little more flexibility on the three-inch because, particularly, we are machining those dyes directly. When we get to the smaller sizes -- the silver, clad, and gold -- we actually have to hub the design. So basically, we Page 98 would have to transfer from master tooling to the dyes and then from the dyes to the coin. So you do have a lot more distortion and a lot more loss of detail as you go through that process. But on the three-inch as we're manufacturing the dyes directly off the CNC equipment, we have a much better chance of getting more detail on it, including - you know, now the lines in their form as drawn are very thin. We -- MS. LAMIN: Yes. MR. HARRIGAL: You -- if they were raised, you have to have draft on the sides and things like that. So they would probably come in thicker than as drawn. And in particular, the equation, there's way too much there for us to be able to get all that on there. It would look just like a blob. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. HARRIGAL: But it's -- It would be like pyroglyphics or something. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: But it's doable. And I'm thinking about this because I have to think about Friday so that -- you won't maybe be there for me to Page 99 ask that question. But if that were simplified, if that design were simplified, some of those -- some of the equation or half of the equation was taken off so that we could still have some of it because I find that very intriguing, something we haven't done. And it's - - it could be -- it could make this coin interesting. It could save it. MR. HARRIGAL: I -- personally, I think we would have to work with NASA to come up with a replacement equation -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. HARRIGAL: Yes. -- that we could coin. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yeah, I think that would be -MR. HARRIGAL: MR. WEINMAN: MR. HARRIGAL: I don't know about -Say it again. We would have to come up with some sort of replacement equation that is -MR. WEINMAN: MR. HARRIGAL: Yeah. -- simplified -- MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. WEINMAN: Yeah -- I think that's -- Page 100 MR. HARRIGAL: MR. WEINMAN: -- that would work for NASA. And that's probably true. I think that's -- while I'm hesitant to give -- I mean, I'm not going to give a legal opinion sitting here as to what our interpretation of the legislation. I think it's an interesting argument that while it is a -- it is clearly a common reverse and it is a singular design, that there may be some flexibility with how the design is executed from the various size of the coins. By definition, there's already flexibility because one's large and one's small. But that's something that I will reiterate. We have to go -- we'd have to go back and talk about -and look into that deeper and -MS. STAFFORD: Legal counsel for this program is no longer in the room. (Crosstalk.) MR. WEINMAN: MS. STAFFORD: She's right here. I was afraid you had left. Okay, good. MR. WEINMAN: MS. STAFFORD: No, no. I just wanted to make sure she Page 101 was hearing your conversation. MR. WEINMAN: Oh, she is. MS. STAFFORD: We weren't committing her to anything. MS. YOUNG: Thank you. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I thank legal counsel very much, and I'm hoping that by Friday we'll -- we would have a directive from -MR. WEINMAN: Say that again. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I'm hoping by Friday when we're together to -MR. WEINMAN: If we're -- if we -- MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Would you be able to sort of give us a helpful hint in the procedure of how you're going to interpret this? Because it -- in my opinion, it made a big difference in how the outcome is. MR. WEINMAN: MS. LAMIN: MR. WEINMAN: MS. YOUNG: Well, let -All right. But we'll endeavor to get there. Yeah, just we'll definitely talk, and we'll bring Ron into that conversation as well to Page 102 see what kind of info we can give you by Friday. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. LAMIN: everybody. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, We've got a rather complex -- MR. WEINMAN: MS. LAMIN: to go through. Ms. Chair? -- America the Beautiful program So I'd like to call on April. MS. STAFFORD: So we are here to discussion the final six sites that will be commemorated on the America the Beautiful quarters in 2020 and 2021. We are going to provide background information again, which have already been supplied to you in advance. We're going to provide that for discussion because the discussion of the CCAC here will inform the artists' assignments. And it will also be information that they receive during their kickoff call. So certainly, anything that you want them to consider as they're developing those designs, please feel free to share. We have six sites, as I mentioned, and we're running a little bit ahead of schedule. If it's okay, I'd just like to identify the sites and see if we have Page 103 representatives on the phone that are ready to speak to that. The National Park of American Samoa is our first site. with us? Do we have a representative on the phone Okay. Weir Farm National Historic Site, do we have a representative? MS. COOK: Yes, Linda Cook, the superintendent, is onsite -MS. STAFFORD: MS. COOK: Thank you. -- on the phone. MS. STAFFORD: Yes. Thank you very much. Salt River Bay National Historical Park and Ecological Preserve? Marsh-Billings-Rockefeller National Historical Park? Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve? And Tuskegee Airmen National Historic Site? Okay. So our design managers will endeavor to reach those other liaisons by email. They've committed to be a part of this. And if it's okay, Madam Chair, I think we Page 104 should start with Weir Farm National Historic Site since we have that liaison with us. MS. LAMIN: Perfect. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Weir Farm National Historic Site is located in Connecticut. And it was associated with the development of American impressionism during the height of the artistic movement at the turn of the 19th century. The park was home to three generations of American artists, beginning with Julian Alden Weir, who acquired the farm in 1882. Weir was a leading figure in American art and the development of American impressionism. Here, amidst rocky fields and woodlands, he spent nearly four decades painting. Luminaries of American art often joined him at Weir Farm, which was a short train ride from New York City. In an era of rising industrialism, Weir Farm provided ample natural landscapes to individuals interested in the movement to paint compositions en plein air. Weir connected those individuals, and, together, they experimented and created masterpieces of Page 105 light and color on canvass that came to define American impressionism. After Weir, the artistic legacy was continued by his daughter, Painter Dorothy Weir Young, and her husband, Sculptor Mahonri Young, followed by New England Painters Sperry and Doris Andrews. Weir Farm is the finest remaining landscape of American impressionism and provides a pristine setting where contemporary artists can connect to and paint in the same place that American masters painted. Designed and preserved by artists, the park is a singular crossroads of creativity, art, and nature. The Americans, like the French, painted outdoors and used pure unmixed colors adjacent to each other to convey light and form when seen at a distance by the viewer. But the Americans typically used quieter tones and were more interested in a specific place than their French counterparts, who became increasingly abstract in their landscape paintings. For this reason, actual places where the Americans painted are of greater importance to understanding of work. To this day, the park considers the impact Page 106 even small changes can have on a landscape that has been painted thousands of times. Weir Farm includes a 60-acre cultural landscape consisting of 15 historic structures, including houses, barns, studios, and outbuildings. The landscape features bedrock outcrops, historic gardens, stone terraces, specimen trees, orchards, fields, miles of stone-laid walls, a pond, and hundreds of historic painting sites, all expertly preserved. The artistic tradition at Weir Farm is kept alive through a variety of Art in the Park programs, including an artist and residence program, free art supplies, large frames in the landscape to recreate paintings, night painting, and art instruction. Thousands of artists travel to the park every year to be inspired by the rare quality of painters light at Weir Farm and to paint and draw en plein air in the iconic and exquisite landscape. The rare light is believed to be a product of several factors -- below from the rock outcrops, tree canopy, altitude, and qualities of reflection. Here, visitors find an experience that empowers and inspires them to connect Page 107 with their personal creativity and enjoy the feeling of wellbeing that results from that discovery. Through discussion with representatives from Weir Farm National History Site, we have identified the following regarding the design for the quarter. Symbols and themes include such things as inspiration; legacy of a landscape; feelings of creativity; connection to beauty of nature; the idea of an access to art, beauty, and nature is a right; and American impressionism. Specific devices an artist might consider have been identified as a painting; rolling landscape with stone walls, perhaps with an en plein air painter; framing of a natural scene, potentially, again, part of the painting; and an image of Julian Alden Weir. Some inscriptions that have been suggested include, "What a beautiful world it is," "My life is my art," both said by Julian Alden Weird, and the phrase, "National park for the arts." We have with us Linda Cook, Superintendent of Weir Farm National Historic Site, with us. Linda, would you like to say a few words about Page 108 this special site? MS. COOK: Thank you very much. I have to say the write-up of the park, extreme justice, and I want to thank you for helping phrase that brief. I think the legacy of the park in terms of a - you know, when we think about this, we think of a visual. And we think how the site encompasses these much broader themes, these images of themes. And it -- I guess where I'm going with saying that phrase is it's really hard to figure out, you know, how do you capture the park for these really very kind of esoteric aspects of it that it imparts versus something very recognizable and specific about it. The idea of impressionism and quality, you know, light quality and this notion that art is very critical to the American experience is part of what we convey to visitors. But it's -- I don't -- we don't really know how it conveys and needs to be -- you know, these larger ideals to capture them on a coin. But we're willing to work, and we're very excited about the prospects of this. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you so much. Page 109 Madam Chair. MS. LAMIN: So Jeanne, may I begin with you? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you. And I will give you my -- you know, my interpretation of this. MS. LAMIN: Okay. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I -- growing up in New England, there are amazing stonewalls, and we've seen them now. Even in the woods as you go by, they're -- the fields have grown up, and there's all -- the stones were laid dry. So when the artists are thinking about this, I must think, I must think that there are no -- there's no mortar between those stones. My childhood experience was that the cows were able to walk over the stonewalls because they were laid dry, and sometimes they would just make a little path and come into our yard. So I have great respect for these stonewalls. And the stones were put into the walls in order for the farmers to be able to plow. So instead of putting them in a pile like they do in Pennsylvania, the New Englanders were smart enough to make walls and very much like you find in old England where all the Page 110 stones were just piled higher and higher. And I think they really did that for that reason. So my looking at this and listening to Linda Cook talk about how difficult this probably would be to almost -- we don't want -- I don't think we as a committee want to see an impressionist painting on this coin. So I -- in my opinion looking at this is the important thing that gives the light, stone, the stonewalls, that might be what, in my opinion, would designate the Weir Farm from other areas in the country. We -- you know, we've done waterfalls and lakes and birds and everything. But no -- I don't think we have a very good stonewall on any of our coins. So if we had a stonewall with, you know, my life is art or a beautiful world, whatever, that might be the simplest direction that we could take. We -- I think our artists have to really hone in on this. And hopefully, they'll have a chance to go to this park and sit in those fields and be inspired by what is there and what isn't there. So I encourage the staff to go out there, the artists to go out there. Page 111 Thank you. MS. LAMIN: Donald? Thank you. Oh, sorry. MR. SCARINCI: I have the same comment for all of these, and so I'll just say it once. And you know, and that is, you know, we're -- you know, the artists just have to -- you know, I think the artists have that. I think after the last group of quarters that we got at the last meeting, I was really, really moved and pleased that all of the, you know, conversation -they're listening to us and they're finally getting it. So I think I would say the same thing for this, which is, you know, just remember this is a quarter. The pallet size is a quarter -- small. And you know, when you give us a kayak or a canoe in a stream, it looks like a bug, okay? So you know, I think what you do with these coin -- I think what you do and make them successful is you focus on a detail and give us the detail, you know -- so in this case, a stonewall, in this case, something that's just gone to, you know, be the image that you want to convey. I mean, don't give us, you Page 112 know, this broad landscape that might look great on a three-inch metal. But you just -- this is going to be lost completely in a quarter design. Those just make bad quarters. And also, just don't -- please, please, please, please, please don't give us collage. So I think now we're all using the same term, you know, that this committee -- you know, we for years had our own term for that. collage. But it's collage. Don't give us Don't give us multiple images. You know, focus in on one detail, express one thought, and express it well and powerfully on a small quarter, and you've got a winner. And I don't really need to repeat that, but that's going to be my comment for each of -- you know, that's been my comment for the series since we've talked. MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Robert? MR. HOGE: Thank you, Madam Chair. I think that in this case it really is incumbent upon the selection process to come up with a Page 113 design that conveys what Weir Farm is basically about, which is the impressionist landscape or plein air painting. We want to see some background, some of the natural beauty and the manmade beauty. But I think that probably what might be really effective in something like this is simply to show perhaps even a cutaway of a painting being created showing the landscape. And the paint -- landscape could be in the painting and in the distance. And it might be an image of an artist painting a landscape shown by an artist painting an image showing an artist in the landscape. You can go on into infinity. It wouldn't be that great deal of detail for the landscape itself, but it could well include the stonewalls, the rocks, or whatever, and a scale that could be increasingly large in size as you move into the scale a perhaps cutaway of an artist panel, or something like that. It just kind of occurs to me as an interesting and different possibility, which could capture the essence of the site. MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Herman, what would you like to add to this? Page 114 MR. VIOLA: - is this on? Well, my colleagues have already - My colleagues have already pretty much hit the button. I went online and looked at the site, and the stonewalls are there. And I really like the idea of incorporating something like that with an artist because this -- the whole idea is out there and painting. But again, I'm not sure how this would work on a small-size coin like a quarter. But it really is a beautiful place, and we just want to convey that beauty to the world. Thank you. MS. LAMIN: Michael? MR. MORAN: It's always hard to follow Donald because he covers the whole waterfront. (Laughter.) MR. MORAN: In this case, I agree with him. think it is important that the artists remember on all of these designs to keep the theme simple, directly focused on the particular park, and remember your negative space and remember that it is a quarter, doggone it, and not a dollar or a five-ounce slab that I Page 115 you really designed for. I really don't have any other comments on any of these other than to say -- and I said this to April when I first read them last week -- I think that the Mint has done a stellar job of defining for the artist the themes that are possible in these designs. I think it's the best I've ever seen come out of the Mint. I think that you all, the ones that actually do the work, are to be complimented. It will lay the groundwork for some outstanding designs this time around. MS. LAMIN: Thank you, Michael. Erik. MR. JANSEN: Kudos also to the write-ups. We worked hard on this for years, and it just keeps getting better. So it's time really well invested because we end up controlling our destiny at least within the cone of the creativity it inspires. So thank you. I look for symbolism here, and there are many gorgeous landscapes. I don't have any reason to doubt that the light is wonderful and special and all of those things. Page 116 But I think the real message here is we need a very creative solution to capturing the legacy, inspirational art. It's not art. It's the legacy of inspirational art. It reminds me of the challenge for the platinum design life. We may do life. Yeah, you can do liberty. Through the pursuit of happiness -- that's a hard one. Liberty? And this is like pursuit of the legacy of art. And so that's the challenge here. not give us buildings. Please do Please do not give us a wall. Please give us a symbol for the legacy of art. MS. LAMIN: I don't want to forget Dennis, and I don't want to forget Heidi. Dennis, can you -- are you here now? MR. TUCKER: MS. LAMIN: MR. TUCKER: I am, yes. Good. Can you hear me? Yes. Very good. Thank you, Madam Chair. I liked the idea of doing an outdoor scene with a frame or an artist canvass maybe off to the side, combining or continuing the landscape. I believe there actually are frames situated at this historic Page 117 site, and they're set up to emphasize that sense of connection between the land and the way artists capture the land vividly. So that would be almost taken from the actual site itself. And as others mentioned, another scene that's fundamental to this historic site would be a painter situated within the landscape painting the outdoors. And I know that this is kind of a photograph on a coin approach that we try to discourage in our design recommendations. But in the case of Weir Farm, it really embodies the essence of the site. there to paint. Artists go They paint in the outdoors, and they paint the landscape. So those are my recommendations for our coin artists. MS. LAMIN: Thank you, Dennis. Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you. As Erik said, a symbol -- what was the -- how did you word that? Symbol for the legacy? MR. JANSEN: couldn't say it again. I don't know what I said. I Page 118 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Check the notes. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Symbol for the legacy of art. MS. WASTWEET: here. And "symbol" is the key word On this small pallet, we need to find something that's symbolic of what's important to this site. And there is an item, I think, that might fit that bill that's common en plein air painters, and that is the French easel. If there's anybody here that doesn't know what a French easel is, it's an easel that's portable, and it folds down into a box that holds the paints and the brushes so that the artist can be mobile and go out onsite and paint, which seems to fit the bill very well here. It's an object that could be easily fit onto the small pallet. It's very distinctive, and it's specific to these type of artists, whereas conveying an impressionist painting on a quarter is not a practical directive. We could have the French easel by itself or with the painter standing at it. We don't need a whole lot around it because we know that they're painting en plein air. They're onsite. And so that simple symbol Page 119 will convey the bigger idea, which is my opinion. MS. LAMIN: All righty. MR. ABDUL-JABBAR: Heidi. Kareem? Well, I kind of agree with I think it should be -- in order to keep it simple, we should just limit it to the people who are so important to this site, which is the artists. So figure out some way to depict the artist at work, and I think it should be a no-brainer. MS. LAMIN: MR. URAM: Tom? Thank you, Madam Chair. You know, when I hear about all these parks and so forth, I think I should just take that and grab a quarter and start visiting them all, you know, because it's just so exciting to hear. You know, you pull one out and say this is where I'm going. And -- but Jeanne's description of the place sounds magnificent, and I would concur with a number have said and, Bob, what you mentioned about starting with the artists. I think that could be a really nice symbol for what is ancillary. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Page 120 The thing that struck me when I was reading about Weir Farm is the -- and I'm trying to imagine this -- large frames in the landscape to recreate paintings. And I just imagined a wood with frames hanging in trees where, depending on where you stood, you got a completely new look at what the property looked like. And I found that to be very symbolic, and I think we could really do something with that. I don't think we necessarily need people in there. But just an empty frame that we know whatever is behind there changes -- changes with the season. And we could have Jeanne's walls in there if you want. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. LAMIN: All right. I need my walls. So that's -- (Crosstalk.) UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. -- someone else. And thank you, Linda, for joining us. We have a representative from Marsh-BillingsRockefeller National Historical Park with us. site is located in Vermont. like to -- This So if it's okay, I would Page 121 MS. LAMIN: Please. MS. STAFFORD: -- introduce that information next. Marsh-Billings-Rockefeller National Historical Park in Vermont is nestled among the rolling hills and pastures located in eastern -- in the eastern-central part of the state. It's the only national park to tell the story of conservation history and the evolving nature of land stewardship in America. The boyhood home of George Perkins Marsh, one of America's first conservationists, and late the home of Frederick Billings, the property was given to the American people by its most recent owners, Laurance Spelman and Mary French Rockefeller. The park was created in 1992 for the purpose of interpreting the history and evolution of conservation stewardship in the United States, recognizing and interpreting the contributions and birthplace of George Perkins Marsh, who was a pioneering environmentalist, author of Man and Nature, and statesman, lawyer, and linguist; recognizing and interpreting the contributions of Frederick Billings, Page 122 who was also a conservationist, a pioneer at reforestation and scientific farm management, a lawyer, philanthropist, and railroad building, who extended the principles of land management introduced by Marsh; preserving the Marsh-Billings-Rockefeller mansion and its surrounding lands; and recognizing the significant contributions of Julia Billings, Mary Billings French, Mary French Rockefeller, and Laurance Spelman Rockefeller in perpetuating the Marsh-Billings heritage. Today, the park seeks to engage visitors in exploring the evolving concept of stewardship, defined broadly as, "The act of people taking care of the special places in their communities and beyond." Visitors can tour the mansion and gardens and learn more about land stewardship and conservation by hiking in the managed forest. The park's forest is one of the oldest scientifically managed forests in this country. In walking the park's carriage roads and trails, visitors can see examples of some of the earliest practices of reforestations with plantations, or tree plantings, Page 123 dating back to the 1870s alongside more modern approaches to hardwood management. The National Park Service continues the tradition of active forest management to maintain this nationally unique cultural landscape. Nearly 20 miles of carriage roads and trails crisscross this park, offering view of the forest, farm fields, and (inaudible) pond named the Pogue, and the surrounding countryside. Built by Frederick Billings, the carriage roads were designed to integrate the beautiful with the practical. Once completed, they were immediately open to the public for enjoyment and to provide opportunities to explore and learn about the conservation practices of the estate, The mansion is maintained as a historic museum to interpret the life and legacy of the generations of families that called this place home. Most notably, the mansion contains one of the largest collection of Hudson River School paintings in the National Park Service. Through their artwork and advocacy, Hudson River School artists called attention to the importance Page 124 of America's vast and diverse landscapes and played a critical role in advancing the conservation movement in the United States. The park operates in partnership with the adjacent Billings farm and museum, a working dairy farm and outdoor museum of agricultural and rural life. The farm interprets farming in rural Vermont life all in the context of the legacy of forest and farm stewardship left by Frederick Billings. Through discussions with representatives from Marsh-Billings-Rockefeller National Historical Park, we have identified the following possible devices for the quarter: Conservation and land stewardship, as exemplified, for example, by telling the story of conservation history and the evolving nature of land stewardship; the concept of people taking care of places and representing the commitment shared across generations to do just that; also, working lands, specifically forestry; a variety of European single species plantings and mixed hardwood species, large diameter trees are on the site; perhaps representing cutting and thinning of tree stands that utilize modern Page 125 equipment; and horse logging. Focusing in on the carriage roads and the Pogue, characterized by framed views, stone bridges, and other architectural features, the Pogue, specifically, is a 14-acre pond in the heart of the park. We noted the mansion in the gardens. The gardens and grounds represent a model gentleman's farm of the country place era. And finally, as mentioned before, the Hudson River School paintings are in conservation. This art, again, was an integral part in advancing the conservation story nationally. Secondary devices were identified as perhaps being the Billings Farm & Museum, the working farm of jersey cows, draft horses, and chickens. We have with us, I believe, Christina Marts, who is the deputy superintendent of the park. Christina, are you with us? MS. MARTS: I am, and it's a pleasure to join you today. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you so much. Page 126 Would you like to say a few words about this special place? MS. MARTS: Oh, I'm most delighted to. First, let me also again thank the Mint team who worked with us on the concept paper. It was just an amazing process to engage with all of you to distill down the 150-year history of the estate to this succinct two pages. So thank you for all of your wonderful work on that. Marsh-Billings, like Weir Farm, is a site that encapsulates a broad, nationally evolving concept for us. That is the concept of land stewardship, as told through the history of the site of the three generations that called this place home. There's many direct evidence of their philosophies of conservation that has played out across the 550 acres of the park that is still evident today to visitors to visit the site. Visitors walking the park's carriage roads and trails can see the great diversity of forest management practices that were championed by George Perkins Marsh, that were practiced by Frederick Billings, and Page 127 continued by Mary and Laurance Rockefeller. So it's a wonderfully diverse landscape that potentially has that history of where stewardship is written on the land. As the concept paper noted, this is a practice that the park service continues to this day, a commitment that we made in accepting the donation from the Rockefellers in the creation of this park to continue the legacy of land stewardship. So it's very much an evolving story that respects the history and practices of each of those eras as they were -- continued to adapt with new scientific information and compelling needs of their time and continue to do so to this day with our visitors to the site. MS. STAFFORD: MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Thank you. Robert, would you like to begin? MR. HOGE: MS. LAMIN: MR. HOGE: I'll try, Madam Chair. Okay. This -- to me, this site presents difficulties that are not something to be encountered so much in others because on the scope of a quarter, Page 128 how is it possible to convey the difference between stewardship and non-stewardship in showing any kind of any part of the environment. This is a question that is -- occurs to me. You want to show a bad growth of weeds or, you know, a poorly growing forest? this? I mean, how do we do I think there's a conceptual difficulty here. I think it's important to focus on vegetation because this is what we're -- really, the basis of the Jersey farming. well fed cattle. I mean, you need grasslands to have The roads, I don't know. roads on other coins. We've seen And so showing the carriage trails might not really convey the idea of stewardship as well either. Focusing on people kind of moves us a little bit away from looking at the landscape of the environment. So I think there's some real challenges here. I really -- I don't really have a cogent selection. MS. LAMIN: Donald, do you have anything to add? MR. SCARINCI: MS. LAMIN: No. You do not. Page 129 Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Where the Weir Farm for me was, you know, kind of hit me in the head with what could be done, this I have to agree with what Bob said. This is a little more difficult, and I'm hoping that the artists will be able to distill something from this. And again, perhaps since it's fall, maybe those artists can take a little leaf-peeping tour up there just to sort of maybe be inspired by what might look good on our quarter-sized coins. Thank you. MS. LAMIN: Herman? MR. VIOLA: Well, I have to agree this is going to be a challenge. This is going to be a challenge because, you know, the quarter, how do you convey all these different issues? You know, I'd love to see horse logging going on or a carriage being pulled by a horse or something, but I don't know if that conveys the legacy they're trying to let us all understand. So I'd say the artists are going to have a lot of free reign to kind of come up with what do they Page 130 think about it. Thank you. MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Michael. MR. MORAN: I'm going to pass. MS. LAMIN: Okay. Dennis, are you there? No Dennis -MR. TUCKER: MS. LAMIN: MR. TUCKER: I am -Oh, you are. Okay. Dennis, go. Yes, thank you. I actually disagree with some of our committee members here. I think there's a very focused mission for this national historical site. The big broad concept is that of managed lands and forests as opposed to protected wilderness, which we've seen in some of our other America the Beautiful quarters. We're talking about the concept of management. So we need to show human involvement in nature. The deliberate, thoughtful, and carefully planned management of our natural resources -- I think that's what Marsh-Billings-Rockefeller is all about. So instead of just showing a forest, which Page 131 doesn't necessarily convey that idea of managed resources, maybe we show something symbolic, a hand, a human hand, holding a sapling or seeds that have been planted and are growing into plants or something that conveys that idea of mankind getting into our natural resource and deliberately planning and controlling it. So that's what I would like to see on this quarter. The mansion at this site is iconic, and it's a recognized symbol of Marsh-Billings-Rockefeller. But I don't think it necessarily captures this idea that I'm trying to get at. So those are my thoughts for this quarter. MS. LAMIN: Thank you, Dennis. Erik? MR. JANSEN: Yeah, I think Robert and Dennis are right on the spot here. And again, we're down to trying to represent a concept here. buildings. it. And so please, no Don't give me a horse with a plow chair on Please don't give me an aerial view of countryside roads. We need to find a way to envision the concept of -- and the words that I pulled out of here -- Page 132 beautiful write-up -- but the words that really hit me were "the act people taking care of special places." So a couple of thoughts. keys off of Dennis's thought. One, I'm -- and this I had it. said it, and it came back to me. And then he Do you recall the coin we did for the spousal gold for Woodrow Wilson? The concept was she stood for him -- stood in for him when he was incapacitated. his hand on a cane. And the image was a hand on Well, we don't want a hand on a hand on a cane here, but there it is. And so I would challenge, perhaps -- and it's just a thought piece -- for the artist to perhaps consider they're sitting down next to George Perkins Marsh, one of America's first conservationists. And having spent an hour listening to him, draw what he would be proud of. MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Heidi? MS. WASTWEET: I agree with Dennis's comments about having a human element, whether it's literally a human or evidence of human. I think it really is important to this particular program. Page 133 I would advise the artists to look back into the classic era of coinage and imagine how they would betray planting. Having a symbolic figure nurturing and caring for a young plant and planting it in the ground I think would convey a lot of this stewardship and management. But don't give us complicated scenes of people in a very utilitarian fashion. But think of the classic coin designers and how they might position a body. Use models. Think of this in an artistic way and an attractive way that's still appropriate for the size of the pallet. MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Kareem? MR. ABDUL-JABBAR: MS. LAMIN: MR. URAM: Pass. Tom. Thank you, Madam Chair. I think what I'd like the artist to look at in this case -- and this was said about all of the images and how difficult sometimes they all can be. But think of yourself sitting in the carriage and listening to Christine and April giving the description of the park. What I'd like to see is maybe me being the Page 134 rider in the carriage and the horse at 6:00 o'clock and just seeing the image of the horse and the head and then the pallet being whatever designs to the right or left or going towards the pond, whatever it might be. But think of yourself as riding the carriage and what would you see. And I think that it doesn't need to even be a horse. It just needs to be the head and the ears so that it looks like you're riding it and coming into the quarter. I think that would be an interesting approach. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LAMIN: Okay. The thing that struck me the most about this, which I think is going to be difficult to portray, is the concept that this place was so special that it was handed down through multiple generations. of this. And we see this with the hyphenated name It went from Marsh to Billings to Rockefeller. And they all loved it, and they all cared for it. So what kind of symbols can we come up with? Perhaps a tree that -- the base of a tree that Marsh would have planted next to a seedling in a hand or a Page 135 seedling in a -- you know, a spade of some sort that a Rockefeller would be planting as part of stewardship. But I think that -- this is going to be tricky, but we need to go from generation to generation to generation because that's what this park says to me, the care that was taken. So okay. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. Christina, for joining us. And thank you, We appreciate it very much. We do have representatives from Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve in Kansas with us on the phone. So we'll do that next. Encompassing nearly 11,000 acres, Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve is located in the heart of the Flint Hills, the largest expanse of tallgrass prairie left in North American. It is the only unit of the National Park Service dedicated to the rich natural history of the tallgrass prairie. Authorized in 1996, the enabling legislation from the preserve also tasked the Park Service to interpret the region's ranching legacy. cattle. A portion of the preserve is still grazed by Page 136 Tallgrass prairie once covered more than 170 million acres from Canada through Texas and as far as Ohio in the East. Rich prairie soils made the region prime for agricultural development. Most of the tallgrass prairie was converted to cropland within just a couple of decades, making this once expansive landscape North America's most altered ecosystem in terms of acres lost. Of the roughly 4 percent that remains today, most, about two-thirds, survives in the Flint Hills of Kansas and Oklahoma. Alternating layers of chert, flint, is found in the limestone, and it gave the Flint Hills region its name. The preserves and surrounding Flint Hills were spared from the plow because it was too rocky. Because the land couldn't easily be farmed, homesteaders soon found that the region was best suited to cattle ranching. Ranching continues to dominate the local economy and is the primary agricultural use of the Flint Hills. Tallgrass Prairie is an incredibly diverse ecosystem. plants. The preserve is home to over 500 species of Prominent grasses such as Big Bluestem, Indian Page 137 Grass, Switchgrass, and Little Bluestem appear to dominate the plant community; however, they are far outnumbered by the diversity of herbaceous plants -wildflowers. Fauna ranges from large grazing animals like deer, bison, and cattle to a multiple of insects, amphibians, and reptiles and other animal life. Grassland birds such as the greater prairie chicken, a type of grouse, which have lost much of its natural habitat, are of particular interest. The preserve is also designated as a national historic landmark because of the -- because the ranch outstandingly represents the transition from the open range to the enclosed holdings of the large cattle companies in the 1880s. The historic Spring Hill Ranch includes numerous limestone buildings, including a three-story barn, a mansion, and Lower Fox Creek Schoolhouse. Dry-stacked limestone fences are present throughout the preserve. Through discussions with representative from Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve, we've identified the following possible devices for the quarter. Page 138 Primary devices included discussions about depicting vast, expansive, and unobstructed view, which may include the Lower Fox Creek Schoolhouse if desired, but is not necessary; grassland birds, such as the greater prairie chicken; grasses, such as Big Bluestem, which can reach six to eight feet tall; Indian Grass. Secondary devices that were discussed included hand-stacked limestone fences depicting depictions of cattle ranching; representations of this area's geology; alternating layers of limestone and shale with flint found in the limestone. Eroding shale has exposed the limestone, giving the region its name. Fire, interestingly enough, was mentioned. This is a fundamental part of the tallgrass prairie ecosystem. Fire burns away old growth, and grazing animals follow the fresh plant grown after the burns. And also interestingly enough, shorebirds -- upland and buff breasted sandpipers are among the birds that one might find there. Our liaisons asked us to please avoid inclusion of bison and trees in the designs. We have with us from the site Kristen Hase, Page 139 Acting Superintendent, and Laura Rose Clawson, Director of Marketing and Outreach for The Nature Conservancy. Kristen, would you like to say a few words about the site? MS. HASE: I would. Thank you. First, I also want to thank everybody for helping put the background information together and everybody that's going to play a role in the future of this quarter. We're really excited about it. As far as the park is concerned, I think what really hit the visitor to Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve is the open, expansive views of tallgrass prairie. You can see, you know, 10 miles or more with nothing but tallgrass prairie, and I think it represents, you know, what Lewis and Clark and others would have seen when they were entering the Great Plains. And they talked about the seas of grass and things like that. And this is the last landscape where you can really see miles and miles of nothing but grassland. And we have visitors that are actually brought to tears by that experience because it's just not something you Page 140 see every day anymore, and it's a really special place. In addition to the expansive views and the prairie wildlife and things like that, we also are still a working ranch. We are -- the park was set up as a public-private partnership, and so we partner with The Nature Conservancy, who actually owns the bulk of the property. And they still lease the property for cattle ranching. And so cattle are a part of the national resource management of the park, but also an important interpretive story that we tell because that cattle ranching has helped maintained the prairie over the last, you know, 100 years or more. Fire -- we listed fire on here because it's still -- we here -- we are a landscape where the park and our neighbors regularly burn it. We do a lot of prescribed fire, and it's not something that's very common elsewhere in other parts of the country. So it's kind of amazing how some of the natural and cultural processes come together to maintain the (inaudible) and this park the way we do today. But I don't want to say everything. So I don't know if Laura would like to say something from Page 141 The Nature Conservancy. MS. CLAWSON: covered it, Kristen. No, I think you've really Again, we're just really excited at this opportunity, and I hope we're here to be able to hear the preserve with so many more people. MS. LAMIN: Okay. How about I go backwards? Tom. MR. URAM: Thank you, Madam Chair. This is always a challenge, once again, as we've always discussed. But quite frankly, I would like to see -- since this is a five-coin set, the last five-coin set at this point, if we're going to do walls on one, we don't want walls on another, you know. We don't -UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: There's no walls here. MR. URAM: walls. There's -- well, she mentioned She mentioned a few different things. But I don't want to see deer. see the buffalo. I don't want to I don't want to see birds. even want to see a turtle. (Laughter.) I don't Page 142 (Crosstalk.) MR. URAM: That's later. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That's later. There are no turtles there. MR. URAM: I think that the grasses and the flowers, I think, really, if you emphasize the grasses and the flowers with all the -- that would be something a little bit different that we haven't seen and, I think, could be a good start. So I would stay away from buildings, the animals, as has been suggested, and try to really come up with some nice flowers and different designs with the grasses. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LAMIN: Kareem? MR. ABDUL-JABBAR: I think that we should take a look at the people who settled this area. All those people out there in, you know, Nebraska and Kansas, down to Oklahoma. Like, you know, there's no building materials out there, so they cut the sod and made sod houses and lived, you know, in sod houses with sod groups 30 miles from any town. And this was their Page 143 land, and they were going to make it work for them. I think their determination and their vision for what this area could be I think is something that is pretty important just in terms of the creation of America, you know, the westward expansion. If it wasn't for people like that, you know, it would still be 30 million buffalo out there. (Laughter.) MR. ABDUL-JABBAR: So I think we should make the -- acknowledge the people who settled the place and, you know, what they did to do that because it was an incredible thing that they achieved. MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: It can't be repeated too often. Vast open vistas are better for postcards than for clients. I was intrigued by the idea of betraying these tall grasses. I think that's really unique. And to show the height of the grasses, you need something in comparison size-wise. So I think it would be interesting to explore the idea of having the grouse combined with the grasses to show the size difference Page 144 or the cattle with the grass. Both of those ideas could be worked with. I was glad that the stakeholder advised us against using the bison. That's helpful to know what not to put on these coins. It's just as valuable as saying what to put on them. So thank you for those comments, and thank you for letting us weigh in at this early point. MS. LAMIN: MR. JANSEN: Erik? Following that conversation and this question to the -- maybe to Kristen or The Nature Conservancy folks, would a comparison to a wagon wheel be appropriate here? Thoughts from the sponsors? Kristen? MS. HASE: Sorry. I was on mute. I don't know about that. MR. JANSEN: I guess -- That's why I'm asking. I don't want to put something out there that's inappropriate. MS. HASE: Yeah. I -- it probably wouldn't be the first thing -MR. JANSEN: MS. HASE: Okay. -- I would -- Page 145 MR. JANSEN: Okay. I think Heidi's hit something really solid there in the grass is the story here and the relevancy, the physical relevancy, is the visual aide to convey that. So I don't have much to add beyond that. Thank you. MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Michael. MR. MORAN: I'm going to continue to pass. MS. LAMIN: Okay. MR. VIOLA: Well, I think I'm going to take a Herman. step further backwards from Kareem. Let's put -- instead of sod houses, let's have teepees. (Laughter.) MR. VIOLA: And so, you know, but definitely, you have to show the grass. And I'm putting in -- I like the idea of how they some sort of scale. And since they don't want birds, maybe some teepees in the distance. I mean, this was the homeland for the native peoples, and it's all gone now, for the most part. MS. LAMIN: Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Can I ask you, Herman? Page 146 These tallgrasses, specifically, they mention the Big Bluestem. Would that be a plant that existed when there were teepees there? Or is that something that they -- people brought and planted? MR. VIOLA: Do you know? That's a very good question. A lot of plants were introduced by visitors, you know, be able to close (ph), actually. So yeah, and some scientist would have to really take a look at that if you want to specify a type of plant. But I was just thinking the sweep of flowing landscape with some teepees in it is going to -- you know, that was my thought. MS. LAMIN: Thanks. Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you, Mary. To answer Herman's question, I believe the Bluestem was there, and the roots go very far down -very far down. And why this was a big expansive bluegrass prairie and everything was the buffalo were out there fertilizing millions of acres. why we still have tons of the soil. And that's If you dig -- dug down deep in there, you'd still have all this rich Page 147 buffalo enhancement. (Laughter.) MS. LAMIN: Enhancement. What a wonderful word. (Crosstalk.) MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: But I think to distill some of this would be a wonderful thing, too. You know, I think of Thomas Harbenton (ph) and his cornfields where he paints the corn up close and then he cuts it down. So you have height in terms of -- you know, so you have corn stubble or wheat stubble or some kind of stubble. And so maybe the size difference could be represented in a close-up of these beautiful grasses and the heads of the grasses, which are pretty wonderful. And it could be extremely contemporary where you just have, you know, heads of grass, stems of grass, and stubble and maybe a mouse. MS. LAMIN: I don't want to forget Dennis before we get to Donald. So Dennis, do you have any thoughts on this? MR. TUCKER: Thank you, yes. Page 148 Actually, Jeanne, I like what you've introduced here, this concept of breaking down the grass and showing its parts. I think that might either be a good main element or part of a larger tableau for this point. Grasslands are very important, obviously, for this design. How to get them into the design is the big question. Another element that was mentioned by our liaisons is the greater prairie chicken. And if you're not familiar with this bird, it's really quite remarkable. birds are. The female is plain like a lot of female You know, she's -- MS. LAMIN: Watch yourself. (Laughter.) MR. TUCKER: I'm sorry. She's -- I'm talking about birds now. MS. LAMIN: MR. TUCKER: striped. Okay. It's brown and black and white You know, so it's easy for her to hide in the grass. But then when you get to the male when he's Page 149 presenting, he has these outrageous plumes and, like, spiking crests and these colorful bulging orange sects on the side of his head. And the males strut around. They make moaning noises. It's a very interesting display. And I think the female greater prairie chicken is a cute bird. You know, chickens are cute. male when it's presenting is very impressive. And the So if we could incorporate this bird into a design that also features the prairie grass, I think we would have something that people could look at and say, you know, that's the Tallgrass Prairie Natural Preserve. Thank you. MS. LAMIN: Thank you, Dennis. Donald? MR. SCARINCI: I always liked the way Americans rewrite our own history and our own passage. It amuses me. No, I don't want to see houses on this. don't want to see teepees on this. about the grass. I I think this is And I like what Jeanne's concept is. I mean, this might be an opportunity to give us a Page 150 modest-type design, maybe grass from the top down, maybe grass in some interesting way, maybe different kinds of grass mixed, maybe a pattern in the grass, maybe even an aerial shot with, like, some shadow of a bird without the bird, without identifying the bird even. So I think this is an opportunity to be a little creative and use the grass. about the land. But this is really It's really about the grass. And it's not about the massacre of the Indians or anything else. MS. LAMIN: MR. HOGE: Robert? Thank you. I think probably we can pretty much all agree that the idea of grass is natural here. I mean, this is the name of the place, you know, Tallgrass -- we show tallgrass But that could be incorporated in various different ways into some kind of vista that could incorporate the animal life or stages of grass or cuttings of grass or the budding of grasses. I vision maybe an artist figuring out how to do, like, coming through the grass, you know, a view from low down, maybe insects low or something like that Page 151 or the herbaceous wildflowers level and then maybe opening up through the tall grasses to see something in the distance, perhaps the prairie chicken or perhaps a teepee, whatever, but something to convey a little bit more the idea of prairie because when you think prairie, you think wide open spaces, you know, not something that's completely enclosed by long, tall grasses. MS. LAMIN: Thank you. My idea of this when I read the description was I thought what a wonderful way to show wind because you could have vast acreage with a pattern of wind bending the grasses. different levels. And the grasses can be all So I think that we've got -- I think that that would be an interesting symbol. So if the wind blew away, there could be something in the background. But just very symbolic -- there's acres and acres and acres and acres. And the wind would have made really incredible patterns through that as it blew. So all right. Thank you. Page 152 MS. STAFFORD: mean, who -- sorry. Thank you. We appreciate -- I Here we go. And I want to say thank you to our liaisons from Tallgrass Prairie for joining us. Thank you very much. Okay. I'm going to jump back real quick to see if our liaison from National Park of American Samoa, Jason Bordelon, are you on the line with us? (No response.) MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Well, we do have our liaison from Tuskegee Airmen National Historic Site, Vester Marable, on the line. So if it's all right, we will do Tuskegee Airmen National Historic Site in Alabama next. Established in 1998, the Tuskegee Airmen National Historic Site commemorates the heroic actions and achievements of the famous Tuskegee Airmen. The term Tuskegee Airmen pertains to both men and women of diverse nationalities and was comprised of nearly 1,000 pilots and over 15,000 support staff, including navigators, Bombardiers, and mechanics. Flying in the Mediterranean theater of Page 153 operations during World War II, the Tuskegee Airmen completed 15,000 (inaudible) and approximately 1,500 missions. They destroyed over 260 enemy aircraft, sank one enemy destroyer, and demolished numerous enemy installations. Several aviators died in combat. The airmen were awarded numerous high honors, including the Distinguished Flying Crosses, Legions of Merit, Silver Stars, Purple Hearts, et cetera. With the support of civil rights organizations such as the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People and historically black colleges and universities, the Tuskegee Airmen movement became known as the VV campaign, meaning victory in both fighting racism at home as well as fascism abroad. Immediately following World War I, the United States Military began investing in aviation education for civilians. Laws of segregation in the United States excluded African Americans from enrolling in civilian pilot training programs. Litigation brought forward by the NAACP on behalf of Howard University student Nancy Williams resulted in African Americans being permitted to train as military pilots. Page 154 In 1939, six historically black colleges and universities were selected to begin the civilian pilot training program. And the highest performing program was at the famed Tuskegee Institute founded in 1881 by Booker T. Washington. New, in part, to the academic excellence at Tuskegee Institute's training program and a historic flight with Tuskegee Flight Instructor Charles Anderson and First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt, Tuskegee was selected in 1941 to host the first African American training facility for an Army Air Corps unit. This became the nucleus for several fighter squadrons, technical units, and bombardment units associated with the Tuskegee Airmen. As a group, they became an important voice for equality by advocating for equal access in the military as well as civilian society, promoting equal opportunity for all Americans, and beginning the breakdown of racial barriers to ignite what would become the Civil Rights Movement. Their achievements proved conclusively that the Tuskegee Airmen were highly disciplined and capable fighters. They earned Page 155 the respect of fellow bomber crews and of military leaders. Having fought America's enemies abroad, the Tuskegee Airmen returned to America to join the struggle to win equality at home. The Tuskegee National -- the Tuskegee Airmen National Historic Site preserves five historic structures used during the primary flight training in World War II. They are Moton Field, the primary airfield; Hangar 1, built in 1941; the bath and locker building; the all race (ph) club, also known as the Skyway Club; and Hangar 2, including the control tower, which was built in 1945. Through discussions with representatives from Tuskegee Airmen National Historic Site, we've identified the possible following -- the following possible devices for the quarter: Artists, of course, should consider the use of symbolism in devices that communicate the broad mission of the Tuskegee Airmen; Hangar 2 with the control tower, the original building and control tower, not the rebuilt version; aircraft such as the J3 Piper Cub, which was a training aircraft, and the PT-17 Stearman, the P-51 Mustang -- a Page 156 P in the aircraft were used overseas, and the P-51 is the iconic aircraft used; perhaps an overhead view of the airfield or a depiction of the historic entrance gate. Potential inscriptions have been identified as "VV," "They fought two wars," and, "Cradle of black aviation." We have Vester Marable, a park ranger at the site, with us today. Vester, would you like to say a few words? MR. MARABLE: Yes, of course. I'm here with our park guide as well, Concordia Ellis (ph), and we're just really, really excited and honored that the Tuskegee National Historic Site will be a part of this series of quarters. And we are delighted that we (inaudible), too. We are here operating on an actual active airfield, which is pretty cool. fly in as well as drive in. in time. Our visitors get to They get to do that back The way our museum is set up, literally, there is a real feeling of what it was like in the 1940s all the way down to the no air conditioning part Page 157 in South Alabama. MS. LAMIN: Yeah. (Laughter.) MR. MARABLE: the coin. So we don't want to put that on But it -- there -- it's pretty amazing here. All right. If you have any questions of me, please (inaudible). MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Robert, would you like to talk about the Tuskegee Airmen? MR. HOGE: Well, I think this is a wonderful opportunity to do something to honor this terrific contribution. I think it's important to show an aircraft. And I question what is actually shown in the way of the aircraft there at the site, the -- you mentioned the Piper Cub and the P-51s being important and so on. Are these aircraft available there for viewing, for visiting or -MR. MARABLE: Yes, we have -- the PT-17 Stearman, which is the type of (inaudible) plane they use here. We also have a J3 Piper Cub, which is kind Page 158 of the plane that gives them (inaudible) program. then we do have a P-51 Mustang (inaudible), too. And So we do have all three of those aircraft on property. The only thing we did want to, you know, think about is the Congressional Gold Medal that does have the depictions of the aircraft on that as well. So we didn't want to duplicate when it comes to the aircraft. MR. HOGE: It seems to me it might not be inappropriate to utilize some of the symbolism from the national Gold Medal. It seems they're closely related issues. MS. LAMIN: MR. HOGE: Yes. We want to certainly be able to show something of the people, the humanity, those who are to be honored by the program. So I think the artists will come up with some good ideas of combining the aircraft with people -- with symbolic people. MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Donald? MR. SCARINCI: I want to be a little inconsistent on this one for the artists when they look at it. First of all, every artist should get a picture Page 159 of the Congressional Gold Medal so we don't replay it out, all right? So that should be in the packet that the artists don't redo it. Because we did it, let's not redo it. And this is an opportunity, I think, you know -- and it's an inconsistent position, you know. But I'd kind of like to get the Tuskegee Airmen in there and not just do objects if we can. So if the artist, you know, can somehow depict because I think a lot of Americans don't know about this. You know, I think it's like, you know, part of our history that we don't know about. So I think we have a chance of putting it in a quarter that will circulate widely that we could get people in it, you know, particularly black, the black (inaudible), you know, who were involved. And you know, that's going to be a tricky thing to do a little bit, but I think -- you know, I think this one is one for some attention by the artist if we do it right. This is a quarter. It circulates. It's a great thing. It's part of a very (inaudible) series. So it -- that's inconsistent with what I Page 160 normally say because I would normally say give me something geometric, give me something, you know, a little more abstract, give me something -- but not in this case. MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you, Madam Chair. I -- I'm intrigued with this historical entrance gate, and I liked Donald's idea of portraying some of the Airmen. So it might be something that would -- that could be considered where, you know, they were portrayed near the gate, under the gate, somewhere where, you know, you'd have a little bit of abstraction but not a whole lot and typify some of the pilots. MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Herman? MR. VIOLA: Thank you, Madam Chair. I think this is a very important coin. frankly, think we ought to focus on the VVV. And I, The reality is, as you know, I work with American Indians, and they had the same issue. They've fought racism at home, and it was -- when they came back from Europe and Page 161 the Pacific and they saw how they were treated like equals and they came back and started their own civil rights movement, too. So I think these coins become so important in education that I think we have to have the VV and maybe with one of the P-51, or something like that. But definitely, we have to focus on the two wars that were fought. MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Michael? MR. MORAN: I won't pass this time, Mary. Don't show me hangars. Don't show me control towers. Don't show me iconic gates. They were all with the United States train -- in the training fields from World War II. What made this was the bravery of the men both at home and abroad. They're the ones that are -- it's about the Tuskegee Airmen, and it needs to portray the men and what they stood for. MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Erik? MR. JANSEN: I'm going to echo Herman's thoughts here, and I'm looking forward to Kareem's Page 162 words on this because I think this is about -- yeah, it was avionics, but this is about the very active, energetic, given without question cultural thing. That's what this is about. This is about VV. And if you want to work in an avionics theme, that's fine. But I think this has to, first and foremost, convey the bravery and the diversity and what came from that in terms of possibilities for the colleges and the public aviation. Good stuff came from that commitment. Thank you. MS. LAMIN: I don't want to forget Dennis. Dennis, are you there? MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, I'm here. I think it's interesting to note that for every one pilot, there were 15 navigators, Bombardiers, mechanics, and other support staff. But really, the pilots are the heroes that most people think about when we think about the Tuskegee Airmen. I like Phebe Hemphill's Congressional Gold Medal a lot. I think it's a very strong obverse design, and I wouldn't mind seeing something that is Page 163 derived from that or similar to that. And that design is the one with the profiles of three airmen with the Army Air Corps emblem underneath. I think there might be a challenge there. We don't want to end up with a two-headed coin, you know, with George Washington on one side and a single profile portrait on the reverse. I don't know if that's an insurmountable problem, but I do like the boldness and strength of those portraits on Phebe's Congressional Gold Medal design. And I know that it'll -- it would be a lot to try to fit into a very small quarter-sized planchet, but I like the logo, or the phrase, "They fought two wars." I think that elegantly sums up the cultural aspect of this national historical site. Thank you. MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: I agree with my colleagues. And Dennis had a great point that we need to be careful we don't have a double-headed coin here. nothing else to add. And I have Page 164 MS. LAMIN: Kareem? MR. ABDUL-JABBAR: For those of you who don't know too much about the Tuskegee Airmen, there was a very good movie that just came out. It's called Red Tails, and it depicts them, what they went through trying to get the opportunity to fight. within North Africa. It starts out We've seen that they were getting an opportunity to fight. The incident with Ms. Roosevelt, who is very significant, because the traditions of the U.S. Army were that black Americans were fine if they were driving trucks and digging ditches and unloading material. But they were not going to be given the opportunity to fight. They were thought to be too ignorant to learn how to fly. And when Ms. Roosevelt went down there, there were a lot of people telling her no, you don't want to fly with those guys. And she said what are you talking about and got in the plane and took a ride and just dispelled that whole issue about their competence. I think the coin should show the aspect that they went through getting instructed. The various -- Page 165 they used to use little planes showing the fighter pilots how to deploy and not set themselves up to be attacked. And you know, the -- they're -- the guys would gather around, and the instructor would show them with planes and, you know, interact with them. And I think that aspect of their training really conveys what they did, and it'll fit on a small coin. Thank you. MS. LAMIN: Thank you, Kareem. Tom, go ahead. MR. URAM: Thank you, Madam Chairman. And I would concur with my colleagues as well. I think this is about the human element here -- no buildings, no landings. You know, I think it's about the pilots but -- and the whole background, how it came about. I would caution the artists, also, not only to look at the Congressional Gold Medal, but to look at the 50th Anniversary World War II, 1991. We have the V there, we have the airplane there, and we have the three images. think. We don't want to have that, I don't And if we do have it, we need to make sure that Page 166 it doesn't look like either one of those coins. The only thing that I would add -- and I think this presents a lot of intrigue and behind that would be that if on the rim we had Morris Code of some sort, if there was some sort of special Morris Code that was used at that time frame that could go around the outside rim. The last time we used Morris Code was for the World War II. So it would be something to maybe consider for someone who might want to look at the coin and investigate it a little bit further as to what it meant. But we used the V at that time frame, so we have to be careful on, you know, having the same concept and so forth. MS. LAMIN: the people. So be creative. Okay. I, too, think it's about And I have no problem borrowing from the greatness of our Mint artists for a Congressional Gold Medal because not everyone is going to buy a copy of the Congressional Gold Medal from the Mint, but everybody's going to have a quarter in their pockets. So I -- it is about the men. it's about what they went through. It's -- I know But I think an Page 167 iconic Airmen would be a great design for the coin. And that's what I have to say about that, April. MS. STAFFORD: Vester, for joining us. Thank you. And thank you, We really appreciate it. We are going to move on to Salt River Bay next. I should note that this site is obviously located in U.S. Virgin Islands. And so while liaisons that are onsite and responsible for that particular location recover from the recent hurricanes, we have been working with a former superintendent of Virgin Islands National Park as well as several other individuals who have deep understanding and experience with Salt River Bay. So we should have Francis Peltier joining us. Francis, are you there? MR. PELTIER: MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Yes, I am. Thank you. So I will ask you to say some -- make some commentary after I read the introduction about Salt River Bay. Salt River Bay National Historical Park & Page 168 Ecological Preserve is a living museum on St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands. Salt River Bay possesses an archaeological and historical heritage of over 2,000 years old that exists within a dynamic ecosystem which supports threatened and endangered species. In 1992, Congress created Salt River Bay as part of the National Park System to preserve, protect, and tell the story of its rich contributions to the nation's natural and cultural heritage. Salt River Bay uniquely documents the human and natural Caribbean world from the earliest indigenous settlements to their clashes with seven colonial European powers and through to the present day. One example is the 1493 encounter with Columbus, which resulted in one of the first recorded violent interactions between Europeans and Native Americans. The site's blend of sea and land holds some of the largest remaining mangrove forests in the Virgin Islands. In addition to the mangroves, the other vitally important ecosystems within the preserve an estuary, coral reefs, and even a submarine canyon. Some of the flora within the various Page 169 ecosystems are mahogany, black olive, Seaside Mahoe, sea grape, and gumbo-limbo. Water, which makes up the majority of the park's acreage, is home to 27 species that have been listed as rare, threatened, or endangered. The fauna of this park includes the coral reefs surrounded by graceful sea life such as green sea turtles, hawksbill sea turtles, and blackbar soldierfish. Coral reefs form the basis of communities that are comparable to tropical rain forests for their biological richness and global significance. Through discussions with representatives for Salt Bay River National Historical Park & Ecological Preserve, we've identified the following concepts: First, special natural features such as the mangroves, which include red, white, and black; the coral reefs; as far as animals, we -- we're just -- we've talked about the sea turtles, queen conch, northern parula warbler, mangrove cuckoo, and blackbar soldierfish. The plants that we've listed include mahogany, black olive, Seaside Mahoe, seagrape, and gumbo limbo. Potential inscriptions that have been Page 170 discussed included, "First encounters, enduring connections," and "Between land and sea," and "Where Europe and America meet." Okay, Francis. Would you like to make some comments about this location? MR. PELTIER: Sure, I would. First of all, one of the things that excites you when you go to Salt River, unlike St. John where we have Virgin Islands National Park proper, it's very (inaudible) the rolling hills. the sea. It just gives a different vista as to what is And then with the marine entrance coming into Salt River, it's just a different viewpoint, different landscape, the grasses, and also, as you mentioned, of the beautiful mangroves that usually inhabit that particular part of St. Croix. And people who go to St. Croix to Salt River, they go for many different reasons. They go also for the history there about the (inaudible) Indians who inhabited that area many, many, many years ago, and also a lot of the natural resources, the diving, the coral reef, and also the various sea turtles and life in the marine waters. Page 171 And what's also -- I admit that I've been on the phone listening to your various presentations and deliberations and been very impressed with the very meticulous process you guys go through as far as identifying and getting input from various members of your committee. And I do express our appreciation to you guys for this opportunity for us to be here to assist you -- also to -- so we appreciate the fine work that you're doing going forth to help put this coin together for us (inaudible). MS. STAFFORD: Thank you so much. Madam Chair? MS. LAMIN: MR. PELTIER: MS. LAMIN: first. Thank you, Francis. Okay. You're welcome. I'm chair. So I'm going to speak And the word is "turtle." (Laughter.) MS. LAMIN: We've had so many opportunities. At some point in this entire thing, I would love to see an absolutely great turtle. Considering the unfortunate devastation that's been throughout the Caribbean, I think we have to be very cognizant of Page 172 that. But underwater, everything pretty much looks the same, I would think. I'm intrigued by the canyon, if there is a way to sort of picture that somehow with the marine life around there. But I really want to put in my vote for at some point a turtle. So Tom, I'll let you go next. You can talk about turtles, too, if you want. MR. URAM: Madam Chair. Oh, well, I'm passing -- thank you, We're passing turtle around right now. But anyhow, I -- you know, but anyhow, yeah, I think it would be creative, especially what you might put behind it as far as some of the corals, some of the different things really make it moving. And keep in mind that it is as quarter and not a dollar, and go from there. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LAMIN: Kareem. MR. ABDUL-JABBAR: I think anything that would let people know that the -- this area is part of our country. A lot of people don't understand that the Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico, that's America. And I Page 173 think our connecting us to them are -- I think we're doing everybody a service both here in our country proper and down there in the islands because this most recent experience, they must be wondering. Thank you. MS. LAMIN: Yes. Thank you, Kareem. Let me -- can I do Dennis? Dennis, are you there? Dennis, you want to talk about -(Crosstalk.) MS. LAMIN: MR. TUCKER: Good. Yeah, I would love to, of course. Thank you. We have talked about -- we talked about places like the Northern Mariana Islands and Guam where these are national sites that have been established as historical parks and memorial sites. But Salt River Bay is different because it was established as both a historical park and an ecological preserve. So here, showing wildlife is appropriate, and it doesn't egregiously marginalize the historical aspect the way it would for Guam or the Northern Mariana Islands, for Page 174 example. So I agree with what's been said so far. This is finally our opportunity to show a sea turtle, and we can include the very significant coral reefs as well for additional fauna. I think if we look at some of the designs for Guam, number 6, number 7, number 8, these were ones that we looked at last month. For Guam, I'm not saying that we should simply take those designs and call them Salt River Bay, but I think those are ones that can give our artists some guidance on what we liked about showing a turtle. Thank you. MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: I think we have a plethora of rich subject matter for this coin. All I would like to add is to, please, let's save the slogans for brochures and signage and just focus on the images for the coins. These coins already have legislated quite a bit of warning around it. So to add more slogans and mottos just confuses and clutters the coin. MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Page 175 Erik? MR. JANSEN: I think this coin begs for some really creative treatment of water and the aquatic life. I look forward to a final review where we make sure we have the anatomy correct on the green or the hawksbill turtle. If the colonial theme wants to be worked in here, I think that could easily be put in a classic Heidi Wastweet kind of don't give me the detail, just give me the profile of a masted ship. And that could be woven in there just as maybe a propeller was laying on the bottom of our last turtle opportunity. So if there's a hybridization of the history as well as the national life here, I just toss that out there. But I'm going to be looking up the anatomical features of a green and a hawksbill to make sure we have them right. Thank you. MS. LAMIN: Thank you, Erik. Michael. MR. MORAN: I would like to be cute and just say turtle and pass on. Page 176 I do think, though, that this is the one opportunity for a really good marine landscape. I hope we can get that in there with a turtle. MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Herman? MR. VIOLA: I agree with my colleagues. need sea life and a turtle. You It would be wonderful to see if they make a very attractive design. Thank you. MS. LAMIN: Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: need a turtle. Yes, I also think we But you know, a turtle might be swimming amongst this mangrove -MS. LAMIN: Roots. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: -- roots. some water and some other maybe fishes. really wonderful aquatic scene. And we'd have It could be a So I challenge the artists to really think about this and think about how you can use these roots and coral as texture and part of the background of the turtle. MS. LAMIN: Donald? MR. SCARINCI: Well, I think when we consider Page 177 this coin, I hope we do it in February and you can all come visit me in Turks and Caicos at my house. MS. LAMIN: Great. (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: And -- (Crosstalk.) UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Make it happen. Make it -MR. SCARINCI: And we have sea turtles in Turks and Caicos, and we have a reef. We have a barrier reef in Turks and Caicos, and we have corny slogans. "Beautiful by nature" is the slogan for Turks and Caicos. So I would not like to see any slogan on this coin. I agree with that. I would also, you know, don't really particularly care much about the whole Columbus theme. I mean, Columbus was here in the Caribbean is just like George Washington slept here in New Jersey. You know, he slept everywhere in New Jersey, and, you know, Columbus was everywhere in the Caribbean. So I think I like the turtle thing, but Kareem Page 178 made a really important point. And you know, this is a real opportunity for us to communicate on a circulating coin. Again, that -- you know, these islands, the Virgin Islands, it's the U.S. Virgin Islands. know, Puerto Rico is a territory. America. You I mean, this is I mean, these people are Americans. So I think somehow -- I don't know how, but I would love to see designs. the turtle. And yeah, I'd love to see I do want to see the turtle, you know, but it's, you know -- and I don't know how we can communicate on the quarter that the Virgin Islands -that St. Johns is America. But that would be a great thing to communicate. Yeah, it's an absolutely beautiful place if you've ever been. I've been. And you know, I mean, you know, it's just amazing, and most people don't know that going there is staying home. MS. LAMIN: So … Thank you. Robert? MR. HOGE: Thank you. I wholeheartedly concur with my -- all -- what my colleagues have said. This is a great opportunity Page 179 for us to introduce the ever-popular turtle and show some wonderful submarine life. I mean, I'm sure that our artists will come up with some wonderful ideas. MS. LAMIN: Great. Thank you. And we have one final America the Beautiful quarter, do we not? April? MS. STAFFORD: We do for American Samoa. The National Park of American Samoa is located some 2,600 miles southwest of Hawaii. The National Park of American Samoa is one of the most remote national parks in the United States. The national park includes sections of three islands -- Tutuila, Ta'u, and Ofu. Almost all of the land area of these volcanic islands from the mountaintops to the coast is tropic rain forest. The park area totals 13,500 acres, of which 4,000 are underwater. You will not find the usual facilities of most national parks. Instead, with a little bit of explorer's spirit, you will discover secluded villages, rare plants and animals, coral sand beaches, and vistas of land and sea. The people and villages of American Samoa play Page 180 an important role in helping to manage the park. This is accomplished through the work of local partnerships and village chiefs. These members of Polynesia's oldest culture have been keenly attuned to their island environment, holding it to be precious and managing it communally. Samoans and their villages even offer a few guest facilities via the park's Homestay Program. Also, in keeping with the meaning of the word Samoa, for sacred earth, the park helps protect fa'a Samoa, the customs, beliefs, and traditions of the 3,000-year-old Samoan culture. Here in the heart of the South Pacific is a world of sights, sounds, and experiences you will find in no other national park. On Tutuila, American Samoa's largest island, lofty volcanic ridges overlook the deep blue waters of Pago Pago Harbor. Additionally, on Tutuila, there is a scenic drive that skirts the harbor on the southern side of the island while the northern coast remains wild and rugged. The other two islands that the park extends to, Ta'u and Ofu, are less inhabited than Tutuila and have a more untouched quality about them. Page 181 The park preserves the only mixed-species, paleo tropical rain forest in the United States, which includes the unique habitat for flying fruit bats. Within the park's waters are pristine Indo-Pacific coral reefs vibrant with a variety of fish species, sharks, and sea turtles. Additionally, the park protects hundreds of plant species and five distinct rain forest communities, including lowland, montane, coast, ridge, and cloud. Among the fauna, visitors can see our tropical birds and the endangered flying fox, a fruit bat with the wingspan of up to three feet. Through discussions with representatives from National Park of American Samoa, we've identified the possible following -- we've identified the following possible devices: Special natural features, including references to devices depicting the Indo-Pacific coral reefs and paleo tropical rain forest; cultural and historic features that represent American Samoans in traditional dress, including representations of a village chief or the village chief's talking stick or perhaps even a Samoan princess; American Samoans Page 182 performing the Siva dance; representations of community and village life, one example of which is portrayed in a recent art project at the site by village children; animals, as we've noted, including the flying fox or the Samoan fruit bat; others, including sea turtles and colorful kingfisher; and a potential inscription, "Sacred Earth," and "Fa'a Samoa." Okay. We do -- we did work very closely with a representative of this site, Jason Bordelon. Jason, are you with us? We know it's early where you are. Unfortunately, no. MS. LAMIN: time. Thank you. I just looked up the It is 5:40 a.m. in American Samoa. (Laughter.) MS. LAMIN: So I don't blame Jason. So Robert, would you like to start? It's another turtle opportunity, I might want to add, but … MR. HOGE: a fine thing, too. Well, yes, yes. But -- and that's As some of you may know, I'm kind of partial to bats. (Laughter.) Page 183 (Crosstalk.) MR. HOGE: So I think this is a great opportunity to do something, you know, extraordinary with the life of the tropical rain forest. On the other hand, I'm also very partial to native art. And I think that if we could incorporate some design elements from the tradition Samoan culture, I think that would be wonderful, too. And we've got some opportunities for some really terrific designs here. Thank you. MS. LAMIN: Donald? MR. SCARINCI: MS. LAMIN: Nothing, nothing, nothing -- Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: As we have another opportunity for turtles, it is kind of a great opportunity we've never had for a bat. some research on the fruit bat. So I encourage My dog said it looks like a fruit bat. So thank you. MS. LAMIN: Herman? MR. VIOLA: I would love to say fruit bat. Page 184 It's a very distinctive creature. But you know, they already have that on their dollar coin over there, so I'm not sure we can repeat that. But it is a very distinctive creature and certainly would catch a lot of attention when you have it in your pocket. (Crosstalk.) UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. VIOLA: -- that flies. Mary, can I just say what I don't want to see -MS. LAMIN: All right. Go ahead, sure. MR. VIOLA: -- under any circumstances on the pain of death. thing. MS. LAMIN: All right. MR. VIOLA: I don't want to see a military You know, I just don't want to see that. don't want to see guns. I I don't want to see military. I just don't want to see that. MS. LAMIN: Okay. MR. VIOLA: That's all. MS. LAMIN: Okay. Thank you. Erik. MR. JANSEN: What is the -- what's the name of Page 185 this park that'll be in the upper portion of the perimeter? UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: What's going to be the -- you mean on -MR. JANSEN: Yeah, the actual -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: -- on the coin? What is the shorthand or fine use -MR. JANSEN: Yeah, I'm just curious. What will the -UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Right. It's TBD. I think we -- I can't remember what our place was originally -MR. JANSEN: Yeah, it felt like it might -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. JANSEN: -- be a TBD. asking. But it's -That's why I'm So we really don't know. MS. STAFFORD: They typically are -- once we get into the development process, we work with the team in Philadelphia -MR. JANSEN: MS. STAFFORD: Okay. -- and we come up with options that fit into the template. Page 186 MR. JANSEN: right. Okay. Okay, because -- all It looked like it might run into an awful lot of text. I'm intrigued by the native art idea. actually intrigued with "Sacred Earth." I did not know that's what the root of Samoa, the word was. it's short. fan of text. It's not a lot of text. I'm And so I'm not a huge But it's pretty notable here, I think. So native art, the "Sacred Earth," we don't have a profile of a volcanic crater or anything that I can remember on any coin. So there -- (Crosstalk.) UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MR. JANSEN: Hawaii. -- Hawaii, well, that was the sculptor's adventure with the evolve -- with the lava spewing out of the crater. So I only toss that out there. If we do a fruit bat, don't they sleep upside down so we can have an issue of a coin flip here? (Laughter.) MS. LAMIN: Okay. Dennis. Michael, did you want to speak to -- Page 187 MR. MORAN: Not really. MS. LAMIN: -- American Samao? Heidi, just a sec. All right. I've got to get to Dennis. Dennis? MR. TUCKER: Thank you. Something I would mention about the wildlife is that the sea turtle is not unique to American Samoa, but the Samoan fruit bat is. However, I think the fruit bat is going to be difficult to portray. - you know, we're constrained by sculpting. We're - So we have texture, but we don't have the benefit of color or shading like you would in a drawing. And we're working with a very small planchet. When its wings are folded up, the Samoan fruit bat looks like a black hanging fruit. And if you show its wings fully spread, the bat's body would have to be pretty small on a coin. You know, on a quarter, dollar size, it's going to look like a moth or a butterfly. So as much as I like the bat and, you know, the close-up of its face or its body, you know, it's a really unique-looking animal. work on this coin. I don't think it would Page 188 I have seen medals and coins which depict a fruit bat. There's a Samoa dollar, a so-called dollar. But to my eye, these designs exaggerate the size of the body, and they have to reduce the wings -- the appearance of the wings in order to fit on this little round canvass. work. So I just don't think the bat would And then as I said, the sea turtle is not as unique to American Samoa as the fruit bat is. I would like to see local art or other culture. Something that our liaison's text description mentioned is the dancing. I know that the fire dancing is used -- or is performed in Hawaii. the fire dancing is native to Samoa. delicate dance. region. I don't know if But it's a very Dancing is very specific to this So that might be an interesting cuneiform to include on this coin. And I do like the legend, "Sacred Earth," if we can incorporate that somehow. But not necessary, but I think it would be a nice touch. comments. That's my Thank you. MS. LAMIN: Heidi. Thank you, Dennis. Page 189 MS. WASTWEET: I am team fruit bat. (Laughter.) MS. WASTWEET: subject. I think that would make a good I think it would be really suitable for the pallet. I'm also interested in native dress, costume, and dancers. Those are also great subjects. What I would not like to see are complicated village scenes and activities, what we call story bars with -- don't do that. MS. LAMIN: Kareem. MR. ABDUL-JABBAR: I think one cultural thing, if you can depict, that will work on the coin would be the double -- whole ocean going canoes that the Polynesians use to discover all of the different spots in the Pacific. You can put that -- you can depict it and have the backdrop be one of the islands or anything and just show the Samoans and where they live very succinctly. I think that would be, you know, a good way to depict what we're trying to show here, the natural beauty and the fact that it was discovered by Samoans. Page 190 Thank you. MS. LAMIN: Thank you. Tom. MR. URAM: Thank you, Madam Chair. I think Kareem brings out a good point. That -- and in looking at the designs that we've just reviewed, this would be the only one that really has depictions of people. I think the people and the culture would be really balanced well with the other designs that we have talked about today. So I agree with that. I would also remind the artists to look at the American Samoan quarter that was done in 2009. Many -- does have a lot of the tribal icons located on it. So look at that and make sure we stay away from that. And -- but I think the boat idea and the discovery is right on target. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LAMIN: Thank you. I'm also intrigued by the fact that people have successfully live there for 3,000 years essentially in the middle of an ocean, and they've made Page 191 a successful culture. I would like the opportunity to use something from the culture on this point. I realize I'm passing on a fruit bat and a turtle on this one, amazingly enough. But I think that any culture that last 3,000 years, you know, multiple, multiple times of what the United States has been in existence, deserves to be celebrated. And that's all that I have. Any other comments? MR. HOGE: example here. Robert. Just briefly, I wish I had an But my New York numismatic club, presidential now, the American artist Eugen Daub incorporated an image of a bat and stylized one. And perhaps something like this could be considered for a possible conclusion representing the fruit bat if we were dealing with this in Samoa. I like the idea of it besides, too, that they -MS. LAMIN: MR. HOGE: Okay. -- inspired the dance themes and so -- and (ph) the turtle. But maybe there are some representations in the bar forms that they incorporate the turtle or the bat -- Page 192 MS. LAMIN: MR. HOGE: Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. You might want to investigate something like that. MS. LAMIN: They would certainly have wanted to portray them, I would think. MR. URAM: That would be similar to what we did, also, on the code topics. Remember how we had a lot of the Indian symbology (sic) that, you know -MR. HOGE: We tried? MR. URAM: -- that we tried. MR. HOGE: Yeah. MR. URAM: That would be a good idea. MS. LAMIN: All right. That's right. Well, I thank everybody for a very robust and vigorous discussion today. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I think somebody wants to -MR. GOLOVIN: Hi. Is there a moment for public comment? MS. LAMIN: On these coins and on the discussion that we've had? MR. GOLOVIN: It would be relevant to the Page 193 Apollo matter. But I'll just do something generally to share with you. MS. LAMIN: How about five minutes? MR. GOLOVIN: No, less than that. Thank you. Do I need to use the microphone so that? UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: MS. LAMIN: Please -Yes. Okay. MR. GOLOVIN: Thank you. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Please introduce yourself for the record. MR. GOLOVIN: Thank you. My name is Karl Golovin, G-O-L-O-V like Victor, I-N, first name with a K, domain reference anidealiveson.net. Customs. I'm a retired special agent U.S. I was a 9/11 responder. I've been active in the last several years among those coin for release that the record is still withheld concerning JFK's assassination, which are all due out in just another week now. And in the course of that activism, I designed a button which adopted the public domain. I mentioned Page 194 the JFK gold coin. And it -- I realized that no coin has ever had the years of his life on it. So the buttons -- it's a magnet back, but it could be easily worn over a lapel or placed on a refrigerator. But it has the years of his life and In God We Trust being -I think it goes without saying. I was inclined to replace those words with an excerpt from his quote. He said, "A man may die, nations may rise and fall, but an idea lives on." So the coin appears to read as if, really, an idea lives on. And I'm intrigued by the gentleman suggesting that one of the Apollo coins should perhaps have JFK on the back of it. And it does strike me that, you know, he did purpose us, dedicate us, to go to the Moon. And how appropriate that one of the coins actually commemorating reaching the Moon would, in a sense, be dedicated to having commemorate the years of his life and the notion, you know, that, really, an idea lives on. So I just have one of these. got one for each of you. just walk them around. I've just barely And that's about it. I'll Page 195 MS. LAMIN: Well, thank you for your comments, and thank you very much for your service on that terrible day. All right. hard work today. things. So thank all of us for lots of We talked about lots of different If there's no further business, I move to adjourn. (Crosstalk.) MS. LAMIN: And we're adjourning the public meeting. So do I have a motion to adjourn? UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: MS. LAMIN: And second? Donald? Second. Jeanne? Who said second? MR. JANSEN: MS. LAMIN: I do. Erik, were you first? All right. So -MR. JANSEN: MS. LAMIN: I don't care. All in favor of adjourning say aye. MEMBERS: MS. LAMIN: Aye. Those opposed that want to sit and Page 196 talk about sea turtles? MEMBERS: MS. LAMIN: 12:50. Thank you. Nay. Nay? Okay. We are adjourning at Page 197 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, Michael Farkas, the officer before whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby certify that the proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my direction; that said proceedings are a true and accurate record to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. Michael Farkas Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia Page 198 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER I, Karynn Willman, do hereby certify that this transcript was prepared from audio to the best of my ability. I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to this action, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. 10/25/2017 DATE Karynn Willman