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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY UNITED STATES MINT CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE PUBLIC MEETING United States Mint 801 9th Street Northwest Washington, D.C. 20220 Tuesday, October 16, 2018 Reported by: Natalia Thomas Capital Reporting Company 1250 Eye Street, NW, Suite 350 Washington, D.C. 20005 A P P E A R A N C E S Advisory Committee Members Robert Hoge Erik Jansen Mary Lannin Michael Moran Jeanne Stevens-Sollman Dennis Tucker Thomas J. Uram Herman Viola Heidi Wastweet Mint Staff Members Betty Birdsong Pam Borer Inna Drexter Vanessa Franck Ron Harrigal April Stafford Megan Sullivan Roger Vasquez Greg Weinman A P P E A R A N C E S Liaison William Thiesen United States Coast Guard Bill Harris United States Air Force Jim Adams Smithsonian Institution Other Participants Chris Bulfinch Coin World C O N T E N T S Page Welcome and Roll Call 5 Approval of Minutes/Secretary Letters 8 Armed Forces Silver Medal Program U.S. Coast Guard 10 U.S. Air Force 71 2021-22 Native American $1 Coin Program 2021 2022 American Indians in U.S. Military Service 127 Ely S. Parker 169 2021-22 American Eagle Platinum Proof Coin Program 206 P R O C E E D I N G S WELCOME AND ROLL CALL MS. WASTWEET: MS. LANNIN: Good morning. MS. WASTWEET: morning. Good morning, everyone. Let me put on my mic. We are in session. Good I am Heidi Wastweet. I am the acting chair today, since we don’t have an official appointed chair for this meeting. The regulations say that, in that case, we go to the senior member, which is Donald Scarinci, and he is not here today. So that leaves you with me. So bear with me as I struggle my way through today's meeting, and hopefully we'll finish on time. We have a full docket. roll. To start with, let's call our Please say present when I say your name, or whatever you'd like to say. MR. JANSEN: Erik Jansen? Present. MS. WASTWEET: Jeanne Stevens-Sollman? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. WASTWEET: MR. MORAN: Present. Michael Moran? Here. MS. WASTWEET: Dennis Tucker? MR. TUCKER: Present. MS. WASTWEET: MR. URAM: Present. MS. WASTWEET: DR. VOILA: Dr. Herman Viola? Present. MS. WASTWEET: MS. LANNIN: Mary Lannin? Present. MS. WASTWEET: MR. HOGE: Thomas Uram? And Robert Hoge? Present. MS. WASTWEET: Excellent. Today, the CCAC will be considering the following items: discussion of the letter to the secretary and the minutes from our September 27th meeting; candidate designs for the Coast Guard silver medal; candidate designs for the Air Force silver medal; candidate reverse designs for the 2021 and 2022 Native American $1 Coin Program; review and discussion of design concepts for the 2021 through 2022 American Eagle Platinum Proof Coin Program. Before we begin, are there any members of the press in attendance? Do we have any members of the press on the phone, please? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can we have a bridge line, please? Okay. MS. WASTWEET: I'm hearing no responses on the MR. BULFINCH: Chris Bulfinch, Coin World MS. WASTWEET: Thank you. phone. Magazine. right. Any others? All For the record, I'd like to acknowledge the following Mint staff that are participating in today's public meeting: Betty Birdsong, acting liaison to the CCAC; Greg Weinman, counsel to the CCAC; April Stafford, chief, office of design management, who will join us shortly. Program managers from that office are Pam Borer, Vanessa Franck, Vanessa Sullivan and Roger Vasquez. I'd like to begin with the Mint. Are there any issues that need to be addressed? MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: Ron. Ron. Ron? Also acknowledge Ron Harrigal. MR. HARRIGAL: Thank you. MS. WASTWEET: Hi, Ron. MR. HARRIGAL: Hi. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you for joining us. MR. THIESEN: This is Bill Thiesen. I'm with the U.S. Coast Guard and I'm serving here on behalf of the chief, who's unable to attend. dial in until about 10:30. And I'll be able to Just wanted to let you know. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you. MS. SULLIVAN: Thank you. MS. WASTWEET: Can you say your name again for me? MR. THIESEN: N. Well, Bill Thiesen, T-H-I-E-S-E- I'm the East Coast historian. MS. WASTWEET: MR. THIESEN: Thank you. Thank you, Bill. Certainly. APPROVAL OF MINUTES/SECRETARY LETTERS MS. WASTWEET: Any other issues to be addressed before we begin? All right. For the first item on the agenda, approval of the minutes, are there any comments on the -MR. WEINMAN: MS. WASTWEET: And the secretary letters. And the secretary letters. Any comments on those documents? I hear no comments. So is there a motion to approve the minutes and the letters? MR. JANSEN: Motion. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. WASTWEET: Second. Erik, motion. And Jeanne, I'll take your second. MS. WASTWEET: All those in favor, please signify by saying aye. (Chorus of ayes.) MS. WASTWEET: Any no's? Motion passes. Letters are approved and the minutes are approved. April is not with us, so we will go to Megan, please, if you will. Start talking about our first item on the -ARMED FORCES SILVER MEDAL PROGRAM MS. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Heidi. We are going to begin today with the Armed Forces Silver Medal Program. The United States Mint is producing the Armed Forces Silver Medal Program, designed to honor each branch of the military with a silver medal. While the Mint has previously issued medals that commemorate something specific about a service branch -- for example, an anniversary or the role of a particular battle or unit -- we do not currently have a medal series that honors each service branch as a whole and for the entirety of its mission. These new medals are intended to be inclusive of all who serve in the Armed Forces and reflect the depth and breadth of their branch of service. The national medals will be part of the Mint's ongoing medal collection and are not subject to individual or program mintage limits. Initially, the medals will be produced on a 2.5 ounce, two inch diameter silver planchet, but in the future may also be produced in the traditional three inch and 1.5 inch bronze versions. Medal designs are being developed for two branches at a time, beginning with the Air Force and the Coast Guard. We begin this morning with the Coast Guard candidate designs. U.S. COAST GUARD MS. SULLIVAN: Although the U.S. Coast Guard can trace its roots back to 1790, the Coast Guard we know today is a blend of a variety of organizations and services that developed over the years. On August 4, 1790, Congress approved Alexander Hamilton’s proposal to create the Revenue Cutter Service, a fleet of 10 cutters whose purpose was to protect the revenue of our new nation. Today the Coast Guard is a multifaceted service, protecting not only people and vessels, but also lighthouses, navigation aids, riverways, lakes and wildlife, as well as inspecting and enforcing economic traffic, hazardous cargo, migrant interdiction, national security and much more. As is said, the Coast Guard protects those on the sea, protects the nation from threats delivered by the sea and protects the sea itself. They are always ready. We do have liaisons available to us. First, we have Bill Thiesen, who introduced himself earlier. Thank you for being on the call. We had two others who may have had a conflict this morning. Scott Price, are you on the phone? MR. THIESEN: He's unable to attend. He's been called away. MS. SULLIVAN: All right. late. Okay, and Christie Sinclair? She may -- she stated that she might arrive So we may be hearing from her later. So we will begin with the designs. Obverse design CG-O-01 depicts a Coast Guard motor lifeboat speeding through rough water as an MH-65 Dolphin helicopter races ahead. The Boston Lighthouse, one of the oldest lighthouses in the country, is seen in the background as a beacon of safety and security. Inscriptions are “U.S. COAST GUARD” and “SEMPER PARATUS,” the Coast Guard motto, meaning “Always Ready.” This is a strong design choice, one of the first choices of the Coast Guard. Design two depicts a Marine Protector-class patrol boat on duty with its rescue boat deployed. The Coast Guard emblem is found at the bottom of the design, while the inscription “U.S. COAST GUARD” is arced across the top. Design three features one of the Coast Guard’s National Security Cutters on patrol. The Coast Guard emblem is depicted above the bow of the ship. Inscriptions are “U.S. COAST GUARD” and “SEMPER PARATUS.” The Coast Guard identified this as their number two choice. Obverse designs 4A and 4B depict a U.S. Coast Guard National Security Cutter at full throttle, speeding head-on toward the viewer, conveying the Coast Guard is “Always Ready.” The inscription “SEMPER PARATUS” is arced across the top of the design. Design 4B includes the additional inscription “U.S. COAST GUARD.” Obverse design five features a Coast Guard rescue swimmer racing through rough water toward the viewer. Hovering overhead, the Jayhawk helicopter that lowered the swimmer waits to hoist the survivors. The Coast Guard motto “SEMPER PARATUS” is incused into the bottom of the waves. Obverse design six depicts a portrait of Alexander Hamilton, the founder of the U.S. Coast Guard. The Coast Guard emblem is seen on the left. Around the border are inscriptions, including “ALEXANDER HAMILTON” at the base of the portrait, and a quote from his proposal for the Revenue Cutter Service: “A few armed vessels ... useful sentinels of the law.” Obverse design seven portrays a Coast Guard Motor Lifeboat battling the waves, while a Coast Guard helicopter flies overhead. The included inscription is "UNITED STATES COAST GUARD." Obverse design 10 features the Revenue Cutter Massachusetts, the first cutter to enter active service. In the background is the Boston Lighthouse. The Coast Guard emblem is found at the top of the design, while the inscription “UNITED STATES COAST GUARD” arcs across the bottom. The Coast Guard identified this as their number three choice, though it would need the helm and one to two hands added. And that is our obverse designs. Moving on to the reverse designs, reverse design one depicts an MH-60 Jayhawk rescue helicopter coming to the aid of two flood victims on a rooftop, illustrating one of the many missions of the Coast Guard. The inscription “UNITED STATES COAST GUARD” is along the top border. There is a note that the helicopter would need a few adjustments. Reverse design three features a rescue swimmer preparing to load a survivor into a rescue basket while a Coast Guard helicopter stands by to lift them both to safety. A burning vessel can be seen in the background. The inscriptions “HONOR,” “RESPECT,” and “DEVOTION TO DUTY” describe the Coast Guard’s core values. Reverse design four portrays a Coast Guard Icebreaker driving through the ice fields in the arctic. A polar bear provides a geographic reference to the area. The Coast Guard’s core values, “HONOR,” “RESPECT,” and “DEVOTION TO DUTY” are inscribed around the border. The Coast Guard identified this as a strong choice, number one or number two. Reverse design five depicts equipment commonly used for search and rescue missions. A Motor Lifeboat is seen in rough water, while two MH-65 Dolphin helicopters keep watch from the air. The inscription “SEMPER PARATUS” arcs across the bottom. Reverse six depicts Massachusetts, the first active duty U.S. revenue cutter, passing by a lighthouse. The Coast Guard Emblem is seen on the right side of the field. Inscriptions are “SEMPER PARATUS,” “FIRST REVENUE CUTTER,” and “MASSACHUSETTS.” Reverse design seven features a Morris-class topsail schooner sailing past the Cape Henry Lighthouse in the 1830s. The Coast Guard emblem is at the bottom of the design, while the inscription “SEMPER PARATUS” is arced across the top. The coast Guard identified this as a strong design, either number one or number two. Reverse design eight alludes to the long history of the Coast Guard’s service by depicting the sea and a lighthouse perched on a coastal landscape in the distance. The central inscriptions of “WE PROTECT THE SEA,” “WE PROTECT THE NATION FROM THREATS DELIVERED BY THE SEA,” “WE PROTECT THE SEA ITSELF,” and “HONOR, RESPECT, AND DEVOTION TO DUTY” summarize their mission and core values. The Coast Guard Emblem is centered at the bottom of the design and is flanked by 13 stars around the rim. Reverse number nine features a life preserver ring as an outer border. The inner design is the distinctive Coast Guard racing stripe mark, which is found on almost all Coast Guard crafts. The racing stripes are depicted with a heraldic hatching tradition to indicate color. The horizontal stripes indicate the color blue, while the vertical stripes indicate the color red. The Coast Guard emblem, which is part of the racing stripe mark, is also in the center. Inscribed into the life ring are the Coast Guard’s core values, “HONOR,” “RESPECT,” and “DEVOTION TO DUTY.” The Coast Guard identified this as their number three choice. And finally, reverse 10 depicts the current Coast Guard emblem. And that is the reverse designs. MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: Thank you, Megan. Before you begin, I just wanted to note for the record that Inna Drexter is also here. She's with the Office of Chief Counsel and is the project counsel for this program. MS. WASTWEET: Okay. Thank you for joining us. Next, I'm going to call for technical questions on this portfolio. And I'm going to start with a couple of questions of mine. On reverse design number seven, can you tell me more about the significance of this ship? MS. SULLIVAN: Pam, can you answer that question? MS. BORER: It was the -- oh, excuse me. was the artist's choice to depict this ship. It I will actually ask our subject matter expert, Bill Thiesen, if you could speak to this particular ship and its significance? MR. THIESEN: So we're looking at reverse number seven? MS. BORER: Yes. MS. SULLIVAN: MS. BORER: Yes. The topsail spanner. MS. WASTWEET: I can rephrase my question. As a preference over design number six, what makes design seven the preference? MR. THIESEN: minute. Okay. Okay. Bear with me here a There's a variety of historical reasons why this class of schooner was probably one of the most successful cutter classes in the early history of the service. In fact, it was the first class built. There were between eight and 10 of these cutters that were built and they were the backbone of the Revenue Cutter Service for probably 20 years, leading up to the Civil War. And very successful, served throughout the Revenue Cutter Service's area of responsibility, the East Coast, the Gulf, served in combat, served in regular Revenue Cutter duties. And this particular rendering here is especially accurate. I could compare it to some of the renderings of the cutter schooners that are not as accurate at all. So it's a very I think worthy portrayal of what the Morris class revenue cutters used to look like. MS. WASTWEET: helpful. Thank you, Bill. That's very Are there any other technical questions on this portfolio? Mary? MS. LANNIN: I had a technical -- I had a technical question on the obverse 04B or 04A, depending. It seems that the numbers on the side of this cutter are inverted or scrambled or, you know, computer-generated. And so, when we do something, A, are we allowed to put an accurate number on there which should reflect actually this particular cutter or do the numbers have to go or do they have to be sort of fuzzed out for any legal reason? MS. DREXTER: We prefer not to identify any particular ship, which is why you have a combination of numbers that seem to overlap. But one of the comments that we also had was that we thought it looked odd the way it is drawn with overlapping numbers. It looks almost like a mistake, like a typewriter double-keyed itself. MS. LANNIN: MS. DREXTER: Right. And so, yes, we identified that as well. MS. BORER: It certainly could be removed if it needed to be. MS. LANNIN: But if it was removed, then it wouldn't be an accurate depiction of the ship. So are we allowed to put number 750 or 695 or 999 on it or whatever? MR. WEINMAN: that. There's no legal instruction on We just, as a matter of policy, tend not to want to feature one particular vessel to be honored on a coin like this. MS. LANNIN: But you're -- but one of the reverses that they want is an accurate depiction of one of the early cutters. So six or one-half dozen of the other kind of a thing, so -MR. WEINMAN: It's not -- to answer your question, there's no legal restriction on this. MS. LANNIN: Okay. MR. THIESEN: All right. Thank you. Actually, with the Morris class cutter, there were 10 I think all together. And there's no real numeric or other designation for that particular schooner. So it doesn't necessarily depict one over another. MS. LANNIN: MR. THIESEN: MS. WASTWEET: Okay. Thank you. Sure. Any other technical questions? In that case, Erik, can I start with you? MR. JANSEN: Thank you. One of the things that caught my attention here is there's a relative indiscriminance between obverses and reverses here. Why, for instance, the first six reverses we're considering aren't obverses isn't obvious to me. So as I try to distill out preferences for an obverse and a reverse, you know, it seems to me that perhaps as we go after multiple medals going forward, I know the Mint has some aspirations to pair medals with potentially commemoratives or merely market them to end constituents. I'd defer to some folks on the committee here that might be more of an expert than I am, certainly Donald Scarinci or Mike Moran. But to me, medallic art -- the obverse and the reverse, to my own interpretation of the discipline, one kind is kind of a verb and one side is kind of a noun. One side, the verbal side, being the notable activities or notable events or some signature historical memory that defines the organization and, on the other side, kind of a noun, the emblem, the institution's founding or key dogmatic attributes or whatever. And it seems to me that that kind of guidance may be lacking here in trying to help the artists know what we're looking for. More specifically, to me, of these 18 designs, there really are only three that really to me come under the category of reasonable reverses, and that would be reverse eight, nine and 10. Those kind of carry the necessary emblem or dogma or underlying foundational ideas the organization reminds itself of to keep its institutional memory alive. And then, the other 15 could interchangeably be the verb or the active side of this coin or this medal, rather. So having said all of that, I look for symbolic content. And starting on the obverse one and the nine obverses we have here, I look for symbolic content. I always like energy. We've seen in some of the medals we've recently done that, in these coins, one of the issues that is so effective in denoting energy is how the wake or the splashes are sculpted and rendered. And in that sense, I take the combination of energy and symbols and I think obverse one is perhaps one of the best designs here. It has some key symbols here of the assets that the Coast Guard uses as well as the clear energy of the wake. aggressively. You can see that boat is moving very Yet it also has the symbolic of the lighthouse and the helicopter. So obverse one would be something I would prefer. I question the use of the emblem on the obverse of the medal here. That belongs on the reverse, kind of along the construct I described. in that sense, design three is fairly classic. And Again, I would probably move to remove the emblem so it doesn't appear on both sides. Energetically, four is an attractive design. But for some reason, it feels like it's asserting itself on me more than I'm comfortable with. So I'd reject the art in four as just being a little too aggressive here. Others on the committee may disagree with me here. I think it's a bit of an odd angle that doesn't contribute to the confidence and the security. It feels unbridled energy to me as opposed to one that gives me comfort that they're here to protect and inspect and rescue. Looking to the reverse designs, I appreciate the artistic value in reverse seven. But to me, that doesn't carry forth the real energetics of the organization around protecting and inspecting and always being ready. It seems more picturesque than energetic. When I go to pick reverses in particular, I like reverse number nine. I think it holds emblematically, as well as symbolically most of the institutional elements that I think we -- if I was a customer of this medal, I would want to see there. So it acts as the foundation, and the other side, the energy of the organization. be my recommendations. MS. WASTWEET: Erik. So those would Thank you. Thank you, Erik. Thank you, Tom? MR. URAM: Thank you, Madam Chair. them as a grouping also. I look at It's tough to -- as medals go versus coins. A clarification. What's the planchet size? MS. BORER: MR. URAM: A two-inch diameter. Okay. MS. BORER: MR. URAM: Two-and-a-half ounces of silver. So mainly in proof? MS. BORER: Not necessarily proof. That's still to be worked out. MR. URAM: Because some of these, particularly design 4A and 4B, in a proof could really come off that size of a diameter planchet. I think it would be a really nice medal. I do like the idea of looking at them more as a grouping though since they are medals. So one of my ideas and thoughts were that number seven captures the historic element. And I took would remove the -- MR. JANSEN: MR. URAM: seven. Reverse seven. Reverse seven. I'm sorry. Reverse I'd remove the emblem and I like that teamed up with reverse eight actually because, being a medal, medals tell stories and you'd have the history all combined. So, and I would even consider removing the lighthouse since you would have it on reverse eight. You know, so I guess we probably won't be going that direction. So I kind of like the idea of -- I do like design one. It has -- the stakeholder certainly has their historic reference to the design. However, I think I'll give some points too to 4B because I think with that size of a planchet and done properly, I think that that could be a very attractive medal. And then, I would team them up probably with eight or nine. I do like eight because it gives the whole caption of it. So trying to put the old and the new in the story together is the challenge I see when it comes to discussing the medal itself. You know, you want to have the history, the tradition, yet you want to have a medal that's going to be vibrant. And yet, I really still get back to the 4B. So I'll give some points to 4B and one and also to reverse eight. And if anyone wants to discuss the opportunity of using seven with some modifications with one of the three reverse eight, nine or 10 to finish, finish it off. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. WASTWEET: MR. HOGE: Thank you, Tom. Thank you. attractive designs here. Robert? I think we have some Like Tom, I kind of favor the idea of reverse seven as a possible obverse however. I think this is a very attractive rendition of this type of cutter. If this were an obverse though, we would certainly perhaps want to remove the Coast Guard emblem from the water. I think such an image, in its simplicity, would really be kind of a beautiful design. Number four and 4A are very striking. are impressive. These But I think they might look a little bit too aggressive for the Coast Guard's presentation. Number one is nice because this is like always prepared by air, by land and by sea. But it seems to me that this is a very busy sort of thing. And I'm not sure what it would combine best with as a reverse. In speaking of the reverses, I like number nine, particularly because I like the use of the heraldic symbolism for colors. This actually has occurred on older U.S. coins back into the very early years and most people are unaware of the significance of the horizontal and vertical lines. So we don’t really need a colorized version here. This is actually giving it to us. And I hope we don’t go to colorized coins. MR. URAM: Why do you look at me when you say MR. HOGE: Well, you've been known to -- MR. URAM: It's just the market. MR. HOGE: So we have -- we have some that? attractive possibilities here. My favorite would be possibly, with a few changes, reverse seven as an obverse and reverse nine as a reverse. Number four I think is kind of unfortunate because you see the icebreaker here with the polar bear whose habitat it is obviously destroying and -- thank you. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, Robert. Michael, you want to go next? MR. MORAN: Thank you, Heidi. I like number one on the obverse. I like -- I think it's a nice marriage of the present to the heritage of the organization. I do think that the reason it's busy is because you have U.S. Coast Guard in such a large font across the top. I question whether that really adds anything to the medal. I think you'd keep the "SEMPER PARATUS" down below and incused down into the water and you really can -- if you have the open sky, you can raise that helicopter a bit and it will fill the negative space and balance it out in a better way. I am drawn to number four. it's got to be done in high relief. I like it. But That bow doesn't - - the bow of the ship doesn't jump out of you. If it's done in coin relief, it's not going to look like it's drawn. I don’t care how much frost you put on the ocean spray. It's going to be disappointing. bit reluctant to go there. So I'm a And I suspect that that design might -- if it were modified into a guided missile frigate or a cruiser of some sort, for the Navy it might be a real keeper, far more appropriate than with the Coast Guard. I'm not in love with any of the other obverses. I had the same problems with the polar bear and the icebreaker. And some of the other rescue scenes just appear contrived to me. On the reverse, I think Erik said it beautifully between noun and verb as to what you do with these. I do have a problem personally when you put an inscription in as the central design theme for any coin or medal, that being number eight. to get my vote on that, ever, ever. You're never going You just won't. We're better than that. On the other hand, on a positive note, I think number eight -- or I mean number nine, is brilliant. It gets the seal there. It gets the motto. -- and the life preserver ring. the Coast Guard. It gets it It gets the colors of And I like the fact that it's off- center. The artist that did this was thinking out of the box. It's what I like to see. And it's going to get every one of my votes for the reverse. Thank you, Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, Mike. Next, I'd like to go to Dennis Tucker, on the phone. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. Can you hear me? MS. WASTWEET: MR. TUCKER: Yes. Very good. this conversation, this dialog. Well, I'm enjoying I think there is a lot of good thought that's been put into this portfolio. And I agree with a lot of the comments that I've heard from all of the committee members. Erik, I think you're spot on. I like your description of the noun and the verb as different ways in looking at the obverse and the reverse of any medal. I won't go through every single design in this portfolio. I will just tell you my personal preference is for number one for the obverse. I think it has three points that are strongly in its favor. It depicts active, dynamic lifesaving with the lifeboat and the helicopter. It depicts steady, constant, rock solid protection and guidance. That's with the lighthouse. And it also has an element of history with the Boston Lighthouse in particular, which is one of the oldest lighthouses in the United States, as we've discussed. So I think that that's a very strong contender. And I would note too that that was a preference of the U.S. Coast Guard. For the reverses, I do like nine from a graphical viewpoint. However, I think the best combination for obverse one would be reverse eight. Mike, I understand what you're saying about some of the challenges of using text as a main element for a design. But I feel that reverse eight does what a medallic reverse is supposed to do. It explains and it clarifies and it spells out details. Like Erik said, we have the active verb of the obverse and we have the noun or the textual narrative on the reverse. I think it's perfectly appropriate -- that there's a perfectly appropriate function for a medallic reverse. And additionally, it depicts the Coast Guard emblem without repeating it from obverse one. So those would be my two choices for the entire medal, obverse one with reverse eight. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Dennis. Next, can we go to Herman, please? DR. VIOLA: noun and the verb. Thank you. I love the idea of the And so, I think that captures everything we want to say. with one and eight. And I would have to agree I think they really would capture everything you want to say. You have the historic background with the lighthouse. today. You see the activity of the Coast Guard And then, I think having an explanation of what this all means is appropriate. strongly for one and eight. MS. WASTWEET: So I would vote Thank you. Thank you, Herman. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Jeanne? Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to throw a little rock into this water. MR. JANSEN: Two adjectives. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Two adjectives? Number one, I do obviously agree with what Erik said about the noun and a verb. I think a medal does need to complement the obverse and reverse. It tells a story. A medal tells a story, as opposed to a coin. So we have such a wonderful opportunity here to express that. We have a large planchet and I think we can put a little bit more information on it. I first wanted to compliment the artists on this portfolio because I think it's pretty exciting. You all thought a lot about what the Coast Guard was about and I appreciate seeing a variety of ideas. Number four and 4A and B, for obverse, to me is really dynamic. And if you think about this on a two-inch planchet, you -- I truly believe you can say this and strike it and have it be pretty exciting. I'm not sure I agree with the aggressiveness of it. I agree with the fact that it's powerful. And when we think about the Coast Guard, I think we need to have a powerful statement about what is protecting our country and our citizens. So my first choice is 4B because it does say something about -- you know, the text, I don’t think I'd have to have any more on that obverse. As far as obverse one, the preference, I think this is pretty wonderful because it does address land, air and sea. And so, this would be my second choice. And I think it's well done and I think it would say something about the story of the Coast Guard. On the reverse, to complement that story, for me, I think no one has really mentioned obverse three. But if you think about this activity, we have, you know, a rescue, which is pretty much what the Coast Guard is about, protection/rescue. And we do have some text on there, which is important. So this would be my complement to obverse one. And if I were choosing obverse four, I think I would choose reverse four. I think it's well done. I like -- I like that ship. And I especially don’t think about the cutter chopping up the environment of the polar bear. cutter is. The polar bear just says this is where the And, you know, I don’t think it's destroying the environment as far as it's just making its way through this area or territory. So this would be my choice. I don’t really like -- sorry, Herman and those of you who voted for number eight. that text on there. I don’t like all of First of all, it's just text. There's not any wonderful lettering. beautiful. font. The text isn't It's just -- you know, it's just a gothic And I think that if we were going to do something pretty exciting about having text on a medal, then the font should say something more beautiful in itself. So this is the reason I think I would not approve of this, with all of these letters, although it does indicate what the Coast Guard is about. So, thank you, Madam Chair. MS. WASTWEET: MS. LANNIN: Jeanne on the obverse. Thank you, Jeanne. Mary? Well, I'm going to agree with My particular favorite is 4B, however we scramble or unscramble those numbers. When I think of the Coast Guard, I tend to think of not sort of the passive patrolling and looking. I think of them helping people or ships in trouble. And I'd like to see that coming toward me if I was in trouble. It's got a lot of action. I love the way the bow splits the water. I think it -- I'm sure that the artist will correct this, but I believe that that's an absolutely accurate description or depiction of this cutter. just think it's a really powerful thing. I And I were serving in the Coast Guard, I'd be like, yeah, that's what we do. And to pair that with the reverse, I think in the series of medals that we're doing, that each of the -MR. JANSEN: (Sneezes.) MS. LANNIN: God bless you, Erik. Each of the reverses that we do should probably undoubtedly have the logo. My favorite is number nine, for the reasons actually that Roger mentioned. The interesting heraldic use of the stripes I think is interesting. I do like the fact that it's within a life preserver. So it's sort of the safety and taking care of people. And I like the fact that the actual logo itself is slightly off-center. So I would put my weight behind 4B and number nine. As a secondary one, I do like all of the reasons that the committee members enumerated for obverse number one, the land, sea and air part of it. And I would still pair that with the reverse that I've chosen. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, Mary. I'd like to look at obverse one. Well, first, So the kneejerk reaction with these coin programs is to try to put everything in there, to be inclusive. But the more you try to be inclusive, the more inevitably you are exclusive because someone is going to say what about this, what about that. included, why can't we include this? Since this is It's better to pare things down to more of an exclamation point than to try to have a collage of all the different elements. And that exclamation point I find in obverse four. This is really exciting. coins, we see so many coins. something that's different. attention. Those of us who study We're really looking for And this catches my It's not what's expected. It grabs my attention. Now, from a technical standpoint, Mike, you were questioning whether this would look good in a low relief. If this were a bottlenose kind of a ship, I would agree with you. But because this is very angular, it has a very sharp center point and distinctive plane changes on the sides, this will work actually quite well in a low relief. And it's going to have -- it's going to maintain that dynamic point of view. And as to Erik saying that this was aggressive, I agree with Mary and Jeanne. If I needed rescue, I would want some aggression in that rescue. MS. LANNIN: Power. MS. WASTWEET: Power. And I find this really exciting and would love to see this on a coin. As a contrast and a partner for this, I like reverse seven because one of the beautiful things about coins and medals is the ability to use two sides of the material to tell a complete story that you wouldn't otherwise be able to tell in just one image. So here, we have a really strong contrast of the technology, the advancement through history, where we come from, where we are, the patrolling versus the rescue. I think this makes a great pairing. I'd love it if the logo was just a little larger because I think the logo is very important. And then, pairing these together, we can alter the text to make more sense. I'd like to see the "SEMPER PARATUS" on the obverse and "COAST GUARD" on the reverse. That would make more sense. I also like reverse nine. I think that's a really attractive, graphic depiction. previous comments on reverse four. I agree with This is a good example of intention versus the message that's received. I understand that the intention of the bear is to tell you geographically where this is. But inevitably you're going to get pushback from people who do interpret this not as intended but as they see it as a hot point topic of the deterioration of the polar bear environment. And it starts a conversation that's off-topic from what we want to focus on. So I would advise going against that one. that concludes my comments. So Are there any additional comments around the table? MR. MORAN: Madam Chair? MS. WASTWEET: MR. MORAN: Yes, Mike? Acting chair. I just wondered if there ever is going to be a time when I finally graduate from the school of Heidi. Seriously. I would suggest that we, for the initial voting, unify our voting on 4A and B and not split the votes on that one to get a true opinion of the committee. Then we can come back to it. MS. WASTWEET: that up. Yes. Thank you for bringing If we vote independently on A and B, then we're going to divide our votes. So vote on those designs as if they are one design. And then, we will -- if they rise to the top of our list, we will then pick which one we want to focus on and which letter. Thank you for bringing that up. MR. WEINMAN: To that end, I might note that there are nine members present today, which means there will be a max of 27 votes. number. Therefore, 14 is the magic Keep that in mind. As always, we encourage you to vote for as many designs as you feel is appropriate. You can always deal with obverse/reverse issues by motion later. vote. That becomes more difficult to do if you don’t MS. WASTWEET: Thank you for that. And if there are no further comments from around the table, let's go ahead and tally -- or excuse me, vote on your pages and turn them into Greg. And we will take a brief recess to -MR. WEINMAN: Well, why don’t we -- let's take a 10-minute recess. MS. WASTWEET: A 10-minute recess to tally those and we will see you back in 10 minutes. MR. WEINMAN: Thank you. (Whereupon, the foregoing went off the record at 10:16 a.m., and went back on the record at 10:25 a.m.) MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: MS. WASTWEET: We're back in session. Please come take your seats. Let's get those cats herded. Oh, read the results. Yes. Let's hear the results next. MR. WEINMAN: The results are obverse one received 18 votes, which is the top vote getter. Obverse two received three. Obverse three received two. Obverse 4A and B together is the second vote getter with 17 votes. Well, once again, you can always -- you can always overdo by motion what you do by voting. Voting is just a tool, not an end. five and six received zero votes. received one vote. Obverse Obverse seven Obverse 10 received zero. On the reverses, reverse one received zero. Reverse three received two. seven votes. received zero. Reverse four received Reverse five received zero. Reverse six Reverse seven received 20 votes, which is the top vote getter, but not by a lot because reverse eight received 11 and reverse nine received 18 votes. Reverse 10 received zero. MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: DR. VIOLA: Do with that as you will. Well, can I take -- MS. LANNIN: DR. VIOLA: Thank you, Greg. Go ahead. Speak. Well, can I take my vote away from -MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: make a motion. Erik? You can always -- go ahead and MS. WASTWEET: DR. VIOLA: Go ahead, Herman. Microphone? No, but I'm off the record. MR. JANSEN: You can't go off the record in this room. MR. WEINMAN: You are on the -- everything we do now is on the record. And so, the answer is no. This is a tool, which means you can -- you could always make a motion. The mere fact that the votes came in telling this way is not itself is an end all. DR. VIOLA: Well -- MR. WEINMAN: You are an independent body with -- you can -DR. VIOLA: Okay. MS. WASTWEET: way. Well, I would like to -- Let me -- let me put it this Since we have a close competition between two designs, I'm going to call for a vote or a motion -MR. WEINMAN: MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: MS. WASTWEET: A motion. Make a motion first. Can I do that? You may. I’m going to make a motion that we vote to finalize the selection of the obverse based on the top two vote getters. Do I have a second? DR. VIOLA: Second. MS. WASTWEET: I’m going to take Herman as second. MR. MORAN: Can I ask a question first, Heidi? MS. WASTWEET: MR. MORAN: reverse too? Absolutely. Are you going to do that to the Because I think part of what we need to look at is pairing here. MS. WASTWEET: Exactly. We'll look at pairing, yes. MR. MORAN: But my question was are you going to do that to the reverse as well. MR. JANSEN: I think, Mike, between you and me, we can make it happen. MS. WASTWEET: MR. MORAN: You can make it happen. Well, I hear that. But I really was wanting to pin Heidi down. MS. WASTWEET: when we get there. You are free to make a motion Any other discussion? Anybody want to make a case for any of these designs -MR. MORAN: Well, let me put it this way. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I do -- I do have a question. I would like -MS. WASTWEET: MR. MORAN: Mike first. Sorry. Go ahead, Jeanne. MS. WASTWEET: Go ahead. Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I would like to know what the stakeholder -- what their opinion is of number 4A. MS. WASTWEET: After hearing our discussion? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: discussion. After hearing our So if Mr. Thiesen would help us out to understand their view of this? MR. THIESEN: Yeah. I'll just make my comments brief because I'm afraid I have to pull out myself in a few minutes. But I think the reason -- one of the reasons that we felt stronger about some of the other designs is that -- and again, I'm going to try to make this as brief as possible -- it's a very broad, mission-based service that has many different factions or facets to it. So, for example, if you look at number one, it shows three different facets of that. It shows our navigation and lighthouse section, which is an important part. branch. It shows aviation, which is another And it also shows the seaborne and boats stationed branches of the service. So it shows a variety of the roles and missions of the service. I think while the number four obverse is very compelling, there's no doubt about that, it just shows the cutter side. And to be honest with you, if you had been a member of the service, even if you were a civilian, you realize that there's different cultures that are a part of the service that go back 200 years. And I'm not going to say there's maybe jealousy, but those cultures still exist. So if you're looking at just the cutters, then, you know, the aviators might feel left out or the boat drivers and small craft folks might feel left out. So I think we were looking for more of the multi-mission aspects of these designs. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you. I really appreciate your comments because it helps me make my decision. I'm looking at this as an artist and as a powerful design. But I understand where your thoughts are and I appreciate that. So I will agree with you. And thank you very much. MR. THIESEN: questions? Sure. My pleasure. Any other I'm happy to answer them before I shove off here. MR. JANSEN: time. Only to take advantage of your We're going to have a similar discussion on a reverse between design seven with the schooner and design nine, which is more emblematic, I think. Would you have any thoughts between those two, so we can get your thoughts before you leave? MR. THIESEN: we liked. myself. So the number nine was one that It was basically the chief historian and I'm looking at seven. And both seven and nine were strong candidates for us as well. And the number nine is interesting because it kind of shows a little bit of the new and the old. You can see the kind of representation of the racing stripe in that, which was a design that really came into being in the 1960s under John F. Kennedy's administration. So that represents the modern. then, the other emblem kind of represents the old And Revenue Cutter Service. So there's the different emblems that are perennially associated with the Coast Guard. that. We like We like kind of the overall design, plus the core values that are represented there, which are extremely important to the service, honor, respect, devotion, duty. That's number nine. Number seven, I think the chief historian and I just felt that two things were important about the design number seven. One is that the cutter represented is really an iconic image of the Revenue Cutter Service. That's pretty much what revenue cutters looked like throughout the 1800s. And that particular class was -- wouldn't be the same as let's say the Barque Eagle or maybe if you knew some history, the revenue cutter Bear, which was extremely important to our history. It really represented an important schooner design for the Revenue Cutter Service. And of course you have Cape Henry Light in the background. So it represents two of our predecessor services. So it gives you that multi-mission aspect to it as well. seven. that. So that's the reason why we liked number I think I can speak for the chief historian on Any other questions? MS. LANNIN: question. Yes. I'd like to ask you a You were talking about sort of the subcultures within the Coast Guard in regard to designs 4A and 4B. Can you tell me who you feel your audience for this medal is? MR. THIESEN: So I was thinking about that a little bit as there was discussion going on. And I think that if the service knew about it, that even a lot of service members would be interested in getting one of these, a version of one of these medals. And I think that, like I said, I wouldn't say there necessarily is jealousy between different cultures within the service. But I think that if somebody that worked at a small boat station and their career is a boson or a coxswain or a surf man, something like that, they might be more interested in buying the medal if it had some representation of the multi-mission aspect. Of course, they'd certainly want it if it had a small boat in it. But I know that if the design has a cutter, like the NSC that's depicted in number four, I think that'd be compelling for most service members. But I think that having gotten to know a lot of the folks that are in these different mission sets, that they might say, well, that's really a representation for the cutter men. It's not necessarily one for me being a pilot of a helicopter or something of that nature. MS. LANNIN: But if in 4B, where it says "U.S. COAST GUARD", including "SEMPER PARATUS", if you had a really dynamic design, wouldn't that make you pick it up regardless if you were a helicopter pilot working for the Coast Guard? MR. THIESEN: I agree. I think that the image is very dynamic, aggressive and compelling. And I think anybody who's into technology and ships and the mission of rescuing and maybe response efforts, this image really gives you a sense that the Coast Guard is leaning forward to get the job done, which is something that all Coast Guard personnel, no matter who they are, are proud of because the Coast Guard -- I'm going to try not to brag here -- generally is the tip of the spear when it comes to any kind of response. They're the first ones there to take care of things. And I think this image kind of shows that, that there's a cutter on the way to try to fulfill the mission, no matter what it is. MS. LANNIN: Well, thank you. I have to say that this is absolutely my favorite design in the entire portfolio and a ship that I would want coming after me. And it would actually make a nice pairing with the historic part, which is number seven, which was our highest vote getter. So it's kind of like right now and the way that it used to be with something that's really iconic for the Coast Guard. So thank you very much for your additional thoughts. MR. THIESEN: before I part with you. I'll make one last comment If you do indeed decide to go with number four, if you had to make a decision about the number to use, there's a possibility you could use the first one of class, which was the Bertholf or Waesche. But we could find out for you. Or maybe you'd want to make a decision on one that was named for a particular famous person. All these national security cutters were named for iconic members of the service, Hamilton, Bertholf and Waesche, that were famous, and Dorothy Stratton, who was probably the most famous woman who served in World War II in the Coast Guard. So those are all possibilities. MS. LANNIN: Okay. So we could, through you, get a list of the appropriate numbers for the class of cutter. Is that correct? MR. THIESEN: MS. LANNIN: By all means, yeah. So that is another thing for a collector, just another little -- another little point of interest that the number's absolutely accurate. Thank you. MR. THIESEN: Absolutely. Anything -- any other questions at all? MS. WASTWEET: Thank you. Those were great suggestions and that can certainly be decided after this meeting also. today. It doesn't have to be landed on So we appreciate those comments. MR. THIESEN: shove off here. Absolutely. And I'm going to But if you have further questions, you can always send them to me or to Scott Price as an email. We'd be happy to respond. MS. WASTWEET: Great. Thanks for joining us today. MR. THIESEN: All right. MR. WEINMAN: There's a motion on the table. MS. WASTWEET: Take care. Bye-bye. There's a motion on the table. We will now take a vote on that. By show of hands, who prefers design number one? MR. TUCKER: MS. WASTWEET: I do. Well, there's only two. Those who prefer design number four -MR. TUCKER: Who was the second? MR. JANSEN: Erik. MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: Designs -The second -- the second vote was Erik, along with you, Dennis. MR. TUCKER: MS. WASTWEET: MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Those who prefer number four? Which four? Do we care? MS. WASTWEET: MR. JANSEN: MS. WASTWEET: Either. We're going to get to that. Five. The count is two to five, meaning our official recommendation is for design number four. And we can discuss the pairing now. Would someone like to make any comments on the pairing? MS. LANNIN: Can I comment on which -- MR. TUCKER: I would make a comment. MS. WASTWEET: MR. TUCKER: Go ahead. Thank you, Madam Chair. I would say with obverse four being our choice for the front of the medal, that really makes me lean more -- even more toward reverse eight, which is narratively or verbally inclusive of that multi-mission aspect that Mr. Thiesen talked about. I think we have the visual symbolism on the obverse now and that -- but it's a very specific visual symbolism, not as inclusive as obverse one, which means the reverse really needs to pull a lot more weight here and tell more about what the Coast Guard is. Part of our audience will be current and retired service members who will have pride of ownership, who know what the Coast Guard is. But we have to remember that medals also serve a communications role. Medals tell people who are not in the Coast Guard what the Coast Guard is. And for those reasons, I believe reverse eight is strong enough to pull that weight. MS. WASTWEET: So currently design eight is the third runner with 11 points. Design nine has 18 points and so far the top is number seven, with 20 points. So I'd like to focus on the top two. MR. TUCKER: Well, I understand that. understand that's just -- right. I I think number seven is a very naval and maritime scene. It could be an illustration of the Navy rather than the Coast Guard, although it does have a lighthouse. MS. WASTWEET: And it does have the logo, the emblem. MR. TUCKER: MR. WEINMAN: MS. WASTWEET: Mm-hmm. You can always -And we can put the lettering -- right now -- right now, if we have number four as our obverse and number seven as the reverse, which is where we stand right now, we've got "SEMPER PARATUS" -MS. LANNIN: MS. WASTWEET: On both. -- on both sides. So it would make sense to -MR. TUCKER: MS. WASTWEET: Right. -- go with 4A, with the "SEMPER PARATUS" and then change the lettering on the reverse to say "COAST GUARD". MR. TUCKER: Well, I don’t know if we would need -- we do -- if we keep an emblem on the reverse in any instance, we do have the words "UNITED STATES COAST GUARD" already. I don’t think it's overly repetitive to have it also in a legend because we are only dealing with a two-inch diameter. So -- MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. TUCKER: I think we could -- -- would be agreeable to that, but -MS. WASTWEET: Jeanne? Jeanne has some comments. MR. TUCKER: -- I still think the reverse needs to do a lot more heavy lifting. MR. WEINMAN: Yes. And -- Dennis, you can always make a motion. MR. TUCKER: I would make a motion to open the voting to the top three candidates, which would be reverse seven, reverse nine and reverse eight. MS. WASTWEET: MR. JANSEN: MS. WASTWEET: Do I have a second? Second. I have a second. Discussion? Jeanne, do you want to comment? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: My comment was to -- on the reverse of seven, that we could take "SEMPER PARATUS" and put "HONOR, RESPECT, DEVOTION, DUTY" in its place. MS. WASTWEET: That's a good idea. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: And then, we would have all the text that Dennis really would like to have without so much commotion, so many letters. I think it would make it a cleaner design and a very complimentary medal that talks about present and past and then what the Coast Guard is about always. That's my recommendation. MS. WASTWEET: So that could be a future motion. Any other comments before we vote on this motion? Robert? MR. HOGE: Madam Chairman, I would like to reiterate my suggestion about the possibility of number seven, which is favored by all of us, as a possible obverse to be paired with reverse nine. If we removed the emblem from the sea waves in the foreground, we find the same thing on reverse nine, which I think is a wonderful reverse. The possibility of having a sculpted shape for that life preserver, this could be a raised ring and then perhaps with incused lettering, I think it would be an extremely effective piece there. And then, the graphic of the colored lines indicating horizontal/vertical differentiation. But number seven I think is a wonderful possible obverse. I mean, it gives us the idea, the flavor of the Coast Guard. If we removed that emblem from the waves and had that beautiful use of negative space and the juxtaposition of the ship, the sky and the sea in the foreground, I think we should give this some consideration. And number four obverse is certainly a powerful design. this. We've got the combined scores on But just think about this number seven as a possible obverse. "SEMPER PARATUS" is a beautiful emblem, a beautiful signature there to be combined with the reverse of number nine, if it didn't have the Coast Guard emblem. I think that this is really a spectacular pairing if we did something like that. MS. WASTWEET: attractive. Personally, I think it would be But I think it's too historically focused, given -MR. HOGE: But the reverse -- MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: Yeah. It's a separate -- so it would be a separate motion. MS. WASTWEET: And it would be a separate motion. MR. HOGE: Yeah. MR. WEINMAN: MR. HOGE: Deal with Dennis' motion first. Right. MS. WASTWEET: Any other comments before we vote on the motion on the table? Okay. So the motion on the table is we will vote for six -- excuse me, reverse seven, eight or nine. Can I see a call of hands for number seven? MR. WEINMAN: Or actually, before you do that, you have to accept Dennis' motion, whether or not you want to accept -- you're going to vote on all three. MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: We had a second. You had a second. should -- you should take a vote. But somebody Do you all -- before you vote on one or the other, do you want to vote on all three? That's the question on the table at the moment. Do you want -- in other words, do you want to put eight into the mix is the question. MS. WASTWEET: MR. MORAN: That's the motion on the floor. MR. WEINMAN: Yeah. MS. WASTWEET: MR. MORAN: MR. JANSEN: So the motion -- So take a -- The motion -- Did somebody second it? Yes. MR. WEINMAN: Right. The motion is should you Okay. So do we want to vote on vote on all three. MS. WASTWEET: all three or do we want to stick with the highest score? MR. WEINMAN: MR. TUCKER: MS. WASTWEET: Call for a vote. Aye. Those who want to vote, raise their hand. MR. WEINMAN: MR. TUCKER: MS. WASTWEET: For all three. Aye. There are four ayes. Those who want to stick with the highest score, raise your hands. It's a tie. MR. WEINMAN: Technically you would break the tie as the chair. MR. JANSEN: MR. WEINMAN: motion carries. The chairman should -And so, therefore, Dennis' And so, you have all three in the mix. Now you can vote for one of the three, any one of the three. MS. WASTWEET: Okay. Thank you for that assistance. So we will be voting on all three. Those who vote for number seven, please raise your hand. We're going to vote on the reverse designs. MS. LANNIN: Okay. MS. WASTWEET: MR. MORAN: We're -- Between seven, eight and nine. Seven, eight and nine. MS. WASTWEET: MS. LANNIN: So -So we've successfully -- MS. WASTWEET: Yeah. the obverse right now. We're not talking about We're just talking about the reverse and we'll talk about pairings after. We're going to vote on number seven, which is currently the highest score, eight or nine, considering our new obverse choice. MR. WEINMAN: Which should be a reverse recommendation. MS. WASTWEET: Yes. This will be our reverse recommendation. MR. JANSEN: MS. WASTWEET: Can we vote for more than one? No. Just a simple show of hands. MS. LANNIN: Okay. We've got to do it now. MS. WASTWEET: Ready? two. All right. Pressure's on. Design number seven, raise your hands. Only Design number eight, raise your hands. MR. TUCKER: Aye. MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: Only two. Three. MR. JANSEN: Four. MS. WASTWEET: Four. Sorry. Those who vote on number nine? MR. MORAN: That's what happens when you have three of them. MS. WASTWEET: MR. JANSEN: MR. MORAN: I'm at a loss. It's up to you, Heidi. Not really. MR. WEINMAN: MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: You voted already. I already voted. Yeah. So actually technically that's -MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: So that's three. It's still four to four. have a -MR. JANSEN: A vote-off? So MR. WEINMAN: We'd like to have a vote-off. MS. WASTWEET: Wait. Please vote again for design number nine -MR. TUCKER: Wait. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. If I -- if I could interrupt a moment, I'm at a disadvantage because I'm not physically present. Was it two for reverse seven and four for reverse eight? MS. WASTWEET: MR. TUCKER: That is correct. Well, mathematically then it must be three for nine. MS. WASTWEET: MR. JANSEN: We have some -Somebody's voting twice. MS. WASTWEET: Yeah. Show hands again for those who haven't voted. MR. WEINMAN: point. Start again. Start again. That's a good For number -- let's start -- all those in favor of seven. MS. WASTWEET: raise your hand. changed the vote. All those in favor of seven, Now we only have one. Someone Jeanne is -- this is interesting. Those in favor of eight -MR. MORAN: Don’t you love it? MS. WASTWEET: MR. TUCKER: -- raise your hand . Aye. MS. WASTWEET: Now we have three. Those in favor of nine, raise your hands -MR. JANSEN: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Where's your vote, Herman? DR. VIOLA: I'll be with eight. MR. JANSEN: Okay. So you've got to add another vote on eight. MS. LANNIN: Yeah. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: DR. VIOLA: Oh, no. It's still four. Four for number eight. MR. JANSEN: Yeah. It's still four for number eight. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: MS. STAFFORD: And number nine? No. It's three for number eight. It was one of nine CCAC members for design seven, three out of nine CCACers for design eight and five out of nine for design nine. MR. JANSEN: Well, clarification -- MR. WEINMAN: This is on -- MR. JANSEN: DR. VIOLA: -- your vote is the one in -I'll be eight. MR. WEINMAN: Yeah, the answer is -- yeah, number nine got the most votes. MR. JANSEN: No, I disagree. MR. WEINMAN: Okay. MR. JANSEN: With all due respect, I disagree because Herman's vote was a late vote for eight, not an early vote for nine. DR. VIOLA: And Dennis on the phone. MR. JANSEN: And Dennis on the phone. had eight votes for eight. So we Excuse me, four votes for eight and four votes for nine again. MR. MORAN: Four votes for nine. MS. WASTWEET: We're tied again. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. JANSEN: We're tied again. I think we're tied again. MR. WEINMAN: You're tied, you're tied. something that maybe -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: scissors, paper? Should we do rock, It's MS. WASTWEET: DR. VIOLA: So we're tied on -- Well, isn't the chairman supposed to break the tie, even though she voted? MR. WEINMAN: You could have a -- I suggest -- I would recommend a runoff between eight and nine. MS. WASTWEET: nine. A runoff between eight and Show of hands again for eight. MR. TUCKER: MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: MS. WASTWEET: Aye. Four. Show of hands for nine? There we go. Five. There we have it. We are going to change our recommendation on the reverse designs -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: That's too bad. Seven should have -MS. WASTWEET: MR. JANSEN: MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: MS. WASTWEET: -- to reverse nine. That's the way it goes. As a pairing for four. Any other motions? So as a pairing then, the text would make most sense with 4B as opposed to 4A. -- a motion -- Can we MS. LANNIN: I'd like to make a -- I'll make a motion that we choose -- of the two designs for number four, choose number 4B because it does say "U.S. COAST GUARD" and our purchasing pool of people will undoubtedly be members who are not familiar with the U.S. Coast Guard and that should be on the obverse of the medal. MR. JANSEN: MS. WASTWEET: that? Second. Seconded. Can we bring it to a vote? Any discussion on All in -- all in favor of the motion to adopt 4B, please raise your hands. MR. TUCKER: MS. WASTWEET: motion carries. Aye. Aye. Thank you, Dennis. So 4B is our recommendation. The Now, that concludes our discussion of the U.S. Coast Guard. We're about 15 minutes over time. me look bad. You guys are making So let's move on and we will -- MR. JANSEN: MS. WASTWEET: MR. JANSEN: Madam Chair? Yes. Just a point of question. When I heard the vote tally for the obverses and the reverses, I was disturbed that my vote was not counted for a write-in candidate on the obverse. It wasn't mentioned and it wasn't counted and that disturbs me. MS. WASTWEET: You can air your grievance with the -- department. MR. JANSEN: MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. Okay. Before I introduce the Air Force designs, can I ask if any of our liaisons from the Air Force are on the call? Do we have any of our historians from the Air Force on the call? Okay. U.S. AIR FORCE MS. STAFFORD: Although it can trace its roots back to 1907, the Air Force officially became an independent branch of the service in 1947. From these roots, the Air Force has grown into the iconic service we know today, not only through fighter jets, but also drone operations, satellites, rocketry and much more. The Air Force considers itself a forwardlooking organization, always asking what’s next. They use the past only in the context of how it will help them shape the future. They also abide by three core values: integrity first, service before self and excellence in all we do. Starting with the obverse designs, one and 1A depict fighter jet pilots flying at high speeds alongside other jets. Design one, seen here, depicts F-22 fighter jets and a stylized landscape below. Included inscriptions are "U.S. AIR FORCE," "CRITICAL TO THE PAST," and "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE." Design 1A features a female pilot surveying the skies. Two F-35 fighter jets, along with a rocket, are seen in the background. Obverse two depicts a head-on view of an F-35 fighter jet rapidly rising skyward with the Earth below and 13 stars overhead. The design symbolizes the Air Force as a forward-looking organization, building upon its past to help shape the future and the challenges that lie ahead. The inscription "CRITICAL TO THE PAST, ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE" follows the curve of the Earth. I should go back and note that design one was identified as a strong design by the Air Force. design two was identified lower on that list. And Here? MS. BORER: Yes. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Well, I would ask the CCAC members, and I apologize, to consult the materials in front of you. We apparently are missing the designs in the PowerPoint presentation. So if you could refer to your handouts. Design two, as I just noted it, is one of the lower choices of the Air Force but still identified as one of the stronger designs. But it's number five in their list. Moving on to obverse three, this design features four F-35 jets in a precision fingertip formation as they fly over Mount Rushmore. The Air Force logo is superimposed on the rock face. Inscriptions include "UNITED STATES AIR FORCE," "CRITICAL TO THE PAST" and "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE." Design four depicts an airman remotely piloting a drone, demonstrating the superiority of the Air Force in the areas of technology, intelligence, surveillance and cyber and unmanned combat. A satellite is also seen in the background. Included inscriptions are "U.S. AIR FORCE," "CRITICAL TO THE PAST" and "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE." This is listed as their fourth preference. Designs five and 5A feature a B-2 bomber taking off with the runway converging at the horizon as the vast and clear open sky above symbolizes air superiority. Inscriptions are "CRITICAL TO THE PAST," "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE" and "UNITED STATES AIR FORCE." 5A, seen here, includes the Air Force logo. Designs seven and eight depict a falcon and a swift and agile -- as a swift and agile master of the skies. It represents the speed and maneuverability of the Air Force in its defense of the country and its readiness to fight when needed. The falcon is paired with a lightning bolt, representing the fast and powerful strike of the Air Force. Design seven includes the inscription "U.S. AIR FORCE" beneath the lightning bolt. Design eight, seen here, includes an F-35 jet with an inscription "UNITED STATES AIR FORCE." Obverse 10 focuses on symbols of forwardlooking technology, alongside current Air Force staples: a drone, satellite, a pilot and an F-35 jet. The inscription "U.S. AIR FORCE" is included in the design. This was identified by our liaisons with the Air Force as a strong design, their first choice. Obverses 11, 11A and 12 feature F-35 jets with graphic contrails illustrating their speed and maneuverability. Included inscriptions are "UNITED STATES AIR FORCE," "CRITICAL TO THE PAST" and "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE." Designs 11 and 12 include a field of stars representing space technology and defense. This element, combined with the graphic contrails, creates a stylized version of the stars and stripes in the American flag. This is design 11, 11A. This design 11A was identified by the Air Force as their third preference, and 12. Those are the obverse designs. Moving on to the reverse designs, reverse one depicts a head-on view of an F-35 jet. In the background, the Air Force insignia is emblazoned across the center. Contrails of three additional jets flying in formation recall the spires of the Air Force Memorial and the core values of the Air Force. The inscription "1947" represents the year the Air Force was established as an independent service. The Air Force identified this as a strong preference, number three in their list. Reverse two features three F-35 jets flying in formation, evoking the spires of the U.S. Air Force Memorial and representing their three core values. An American flag waves behind the outstretched wings of a bald eagle that clutches a lightning bolt in its talons. The inscription "1947" is also included. Reverse three depicts four F-35 jets in fingertip formation over a curved horizon emanating from the inscribed date "1947". The design represents the evolution of the U.S. Air Force, from its inception to the present day, with the curve of the Earth symbolizing the expanding of operations into the frontiers of space. additional inscription is "U.S. AIR FORCE." The This was identified by our liaisons as preference number four. Reverse four depicts members of the U.S. Air Force honor guard in a ceremonial assembly at the Air Force Memorial. The memorial's three spires evoke the image of aircraft contrails. The inscriptions "SERVICE BEFORE SELF," "INTEGRITY FIRST" and "EXCELLENCE IN ALL WE DO" and "ESTABLISHED 1947" are around the outer border. The Air Force insignia is also included on the lower right side. This was identified by our liaisons as their very, very strong preference, number one in their list. Reverse five features a battlefield airman in the center of the design, while a second airman is piloting an unmanned drone from a remote location. A satellite that aids in his communication with the drone is seen in the background. The inscription "1947" represents the year the Air Force was established as an independent service. This was identified by our liaison as their second preference. Reverse six features the outstretched wings of an eagle framing the core values and the logo of the U.S. Air Force. The inscriptions "INTEGRITY FIRST," "SERVICE BEFORE SELF," "EXCELLENCE IN ALL WE DO" and "ESTABLISHED 1947" round out the design. Reverses eight and nine utilize the Air Force logo as a focal point. Included inscriptions are "EXCELLENCE IN ALL WE DO," "SERVICE BEFORE SELF," "INTEGRITY FIRST," "CRITICAL TO THE PAST" and "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE." This is reverse eight and nine. You'll notice that reverse eight pairs the logo with a falcon, while nine offers a larger version of the logo. Reverse 10 features an unusual perspective of the Air Force Memorial spires. The stripes in the upper right are evocative of aircraft contrails and anchor the Air Force logo. Included inscriptions are "INTEGRITY FIRST," "SERVICE BEFORE SELF" and "EXCELLENCE IN ALL WE DO." Reverse 11 depicts the Air Force Thunderbirds flying with skill and precision in the fingertip flight formation over the Statue of Liberty. The inscriptions "CRITICAL TO THE PAST," "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE" are arced around the bottom border. Reverse 12 depicts the Air Force Memorial as seen from the sculpture's base, looking skyward to its three spires. The design emphasizes the significance of the three core values of the Air Force. The inscriptions "INTEGRITY FIRST," "SERVICE BEFORE SELF," "EXCELLENCE IN ALL WE DO," "UNITED STATES AIR FORCE" and the date "1947" encircle the design. And finally reverse 15 depicts the U.S. Air Force logo. The inscription "UNITED STATES AIR FORCE" is seen above the logo. Madam Chair? MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, April. Do we have any technical questions before we begin our discussion? MR. TUCKER: MS. WASTWEET: MR. TUCKER: Madam Chair? Yes, Dennis? Thank you. I have a question. This is not a technical question from a manufacturing perspective. But it's from a language perspective. I'm wondering where did the legend "CRITICAL TO THE PAST," "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE" come from. I'm not familiar with that logo or legend. But it might just be illustrating my ignorance that I'm not familiar with it. MS. STAFFORD: It was developed as inscriptions in concert with the liaisons to encapsulate -- to encapsulate their view of the Air Force, specifically looking forward, the relationship of their past with their eye on the future and expanding technology. So it was actually suggested by our liaisons. MR. TUCKER: for this medal? So it was developed specifically It doesn't tie into an Air Force communications -MS. STAFFORD: We didn't -- we can't speak to that, I'm afraid, Dennis. Do we have any representative from the Air Force on the line, our liaisons? I wouldn't want to give you a definitive answer on that right now, Dennis. But it was something that when we were asking for inscriptions came up. I can certainly say there wasn't conversation around the idea that this was just being created just for this medal. somewhere. So it does sit But where it sits and how it sits, I wouldn't want to speak to. MR. TUCKER: Okay. Thank you. MS. WASTWEET: one and 1A. April, I have a question about Usually when we have a numerical addition, it's just a variety of like we saw in the last packet, just a change of lettering. These designs go very different. And I think I heard you say that design one was a preference but 1A was not one of the preferences. The other way? Am I correct in that? 1A is the preference and one is not a preference. MS. STAFFORD: Well, it was actually one was identified as a strong design. But they actually requested a version be created with a female pilot. MS. WASTWEET: So one came first and then, by request -MS. STAFFORD: Correct. MS. WASTWEET: Okay. MS. STAFFORD: And then, after development of Thank you. that design, it became their preference of their two. MS. WASTWEET: clarifying that. All right. Thank you for Any other technical questions? MR. JANSEN: Follow-on to that, demographically I find it curious that we have one, two, three, four female pilots here and no males. I'm just curious. Do we have a mix of how many female pilots there are versus males? Is that a -- is that an impulse of the moment more than a historical fact? just curious. I'm How do we support that? MS. BORER: It wasn't -- diversity if very important to the Air Force. MR. JANSEN: MS. BORER: throughout. Right. They specified that several times So they often made requests to show that in the designs that were developed and asked -requested for some of the pilots to be female and to show the diversity throughout. MR. JANSEN: So it sounds like it's a compensation request as opposed to a factual one. MS. STAFFORD: Well, just looking through the portfolio, I actually count three female representations and as many male representations. So I don’t know that there is a -MR. JANSEN: Oh, I see. When you mix obverse and reverse categories, as you've done -- MS. STAFFORD: MR. JANSEN: obverses. Yes, sir. Okay. I was just looking on the Thank you. MR. MORAN: I thought you were counting Mount Rushmore. MS. WASTWEET: So I would like to say that this is a really strong portfolio. I commend the Mint. These are great designs and we're going to have a tough conversation, just because there are so many good choices. So keeping that in mind, let's keep our comments focused so we can stay on time and stay on track. And I'd like to start with Mary, please. MS. LANNIN: Okay. I would like to say that I'm very pleased that the Air Force wanted to represent so many women, including women are in the headlines obviously. There are a number running for the Senate and Congress currently. And I don’t know if anybody saw the little video clip this morning of a female pilot landing a jet in England with 40 mile an hour winds sideways. That's good. Anyway, I do like 1A showing the woman as a pilot. It seems that the visor is kind of an interesting shape. face. I know it would go down over her But it looks more futuristic to me. looking forward. So it's Actually my true favorite is a real crisp, clean one, which is number AF-05. I guess I must be liking things coming straight at me for medals. incredibly powerful design. But I think that's an And it's also incredibly futuristic. Their choice of number three, which is AF-O11A, I find intriguing because I like -- I just like the logo. I like the way that it looks on the medal and I think that there's going to be a really wonderful reverse that we can pair that with. Do you want me to talk about the reverses too? Okay. So my favorite reverse sort of plays off of the contrails that were on 11. And I in particular like AF-R-10, which includes the logo, or AR-12, which also includes the logo. But it's got those three contrails. So I think that especially 10 would be a really wonderful match with the more generic obverse of number AF-11A. And that's all I have to say. Thank you. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, Mary. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you. particularly excited about this portfolio. Jeanne? I was There's a lot of information about the Air Force and I was very happy to see so many women represented in this program. I think it is -- for the future, I think this just having a female voice in there says something about where the future is going for equality. With that in mind, I do think that A1 -- or 1A, rather -- is very powerful. It's strong. It has a little bit more information than I think I would want to see on a coin. But this again is a medal. So we can have more objects in the field. However, I have to agree with Mary. number five with its simplicity. I do like It's powerful and it's coming -- you know, I'm thinking about this sort of matching the Coast Guard medal that we just decided on. If you have such a simple, powerful voice there, this sort of complements that. To go to the reverse, I like number four that would complement number 1A so that we do have a female/male medal. It's powerful. It's simple and it says something about the strength of the Air Force. However, I think that we can kind of look at another reverse and I did like number three, reverse three. It has again some dynamics in it and I like the fact that we have 1947 indicated on the medal. Thank you. MS. WASTWEET: DR. VIOLA: Thank you, Jeanne. Thank you. Herman? These are tough choices and very fascinating designs. And like everyone else, it would be great to put -- show a female in the picture. We don’t do enough of that. But my first choice was AF-05. simple, I think very dramatic. really liked was number 12. It's crisp, And then, the reverse I Of course, I live in D.C. and I see the contrails all the time when I go across the 14th Street Bridge. choices. So anyhow, those are my two Thank you. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, Herman. I'd like to go to Dennis on the phone next. MR. WEINMAN: Dennis, are you there? MR. TUCKER: Yes. MS. WASTWEET: MR. TUCKER: Can you hear me now? Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to -- I'll start by agreeing with my colleagues. It's wonderful to see the female representation in this portfolio of designs. And I say that as a father of a two year, eight-month-old who I hope will be a famous and powerful young lady someday. The reason I was asking about the legend "CRITICAL TO THE PAST," "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE" is I find this to be an imperfect -- there's an imperfect construction from a language perspective. The United States has been around for 240 years. The U.S. Air Force didn't exist for the first 170 of those years. So I'm not arguing that the Air Force was not absolutely a crucial part of America's defense and military offense for the past 70 years. has been. It It has been for the past 110 years if we count its beginnings as part of the U.S. Army. But saying it was critical to the past is like saying that the Internet is critical to the past or that the Federal Reserve is critical to the past or that the Works Progress Administration or any other 20th century development. very patriotic. It's a nice sentiment. It's But from a language perspective, I have problems with it. I don’t think it works. I was -- I'll be honest with you. I threw out all of the designs -- as I was looking at these, I threw out the ones that included that legend. My first choice for obverse actually changed after hearing April's descriptions of our liaison's preferences. My first choice was obverse eight, which shows the falcon and the jet. it's bold. It's symbolic. And I like this because It's easy to understand. You can read it from a mile away. And for the reverse, my first choice as the best combination for obverse eight is reverse four. And going back to what I said about the Coast Guard designs, I think that this does what a medallic reverse is supposed to do. It explains, it clarifies and it spells out details. I think it's okay to have narrative text pulling that kind of weight in a medal design. And I also liked it because it brings in the human element. After listening to the liaison's preferences though, I do like obverse 10. And I think I'll give -- I'll give obverse 10 my greatest -- the greatest weight in my ranking. It's a strong design. It has a woman. It's forward-looking, even though some might argue that she's technically looking to the past since she's looking to the left. I don’t think that's too terribly important. And it's got that technological kind of futuristic aspect that Mary mentioned with that visor. So my strongest support is going to be for obverse 10 and reverse four. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, Dennis. I'd like to go to Erik next. MR. JANSEN: I'm frustrated that we've got 13 designs that are relatively arbitrarily listed as obverses and 12 that are arbitrarily listed as reverses. I think we are a disservice to our own work here by necessary having two buckets without really reasons for designs being in one or the other. I think we'd be better served in the future if, if we aren't going to give the artists better guidance as to what makes an obverse versus a reverse, we just choose an obverse and a reverse from one bucket. I expressed my concern previously that I did a crossover write-in last time and it was ignored in the vote counting. And so, that's the worst example of what happens in this case. The best case would be if we had one bucket. We could maybe do a vote pass for an obverse and then a vote pass for a reverse. And then, we wouldn't have matching issues either. So just going forward, maybe a thought there. I think we have symbols and context here that are just a joy. The graphical nature of what we're working with here is just so fun. And in that regard, going through this was literally picking candy out of an eye candy store. So that's fun and I commend the artists for that. Maybe we just got lucky with the symbols that are available for this assignment. I'm going to weigh in with Dennis here. It concerns me greatly that we have a -- is that a motto, Dennis? "CRITICAL TO THE PAST," "ESSENTIAL," -- or an aspiring motto? Would that be a motto? MR. TUCKER: Well, motto, legend. I'm not -- that's why I was looking -MS. WASTWEET: Slogan. MR. TUCKER: -- for some clarity on that. MR. JANSEN: Yeah. I'm with you. It concerns me greatly that we don’t understand the pedigree, the nature of that. And to put that on a medal when we really can't understand where it came from I think almost puts us in a position of not being able to make a good choice here. It concerns me. MS. STAFFORD: I'm sorry to interrupt. I believe we now have our liaisons with us. MR. JANSEN: MS. STAFFORD: Oh, terrific. Let me just check. Do we have our historians from the Air Force on the line? DR. HARRIS: MS. STAFFORD: We're online, Pam. Okay. Thank you so much. really appreciate you joining us. I Would you mind, if it's okay, Madam Chair, for them to just really quickly introduce themselves? MS. WASTWEET: MR. JANSEN: Yes, please. Yeah. That would be very helpful. MS. STAFFORD: Can you tell us who's on the phone? DR. HARRIS: Dr. Bill Harris, the deputy director of the Air Force History Program, and Dr. Jim Malachowski, the Air Force senior historian. MS. STAFFORD: joining us. Okay, wonderful. Thank you for Just to catch you up, we shared all of the candidate designs and several of the CCAC members have offered comment. Erik Jansen, who is now speaking, is asking some questions about the development of the inscription "CRITICAL TO THE PAST" and "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE." There was a question about it earlier in the conversation and neither Pam nor I could speak to how that inscription was born, if it's tied to a communication plan or if it was something that was just suggested for this medal. DR. HARRIS: Can you share? It came up in conversation, so not a motto, not an aspiring motto, just a phrase that came up in conversation that seemed to resonate with everyone in the room. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Thank you. And so, they're available for questions as we move through the rest of the portfolio. MS. WASTWEET: MR. JANSEN: Thank you. Erik? So that concerns me that a casual comment is potentially being enshrined here as a dogmatic or historical or an organizational fact. That really concerns me. A second thought -- so I want to weigh in with Dennis on that. So I'm frustrated here. I know a design has been highlighted by a number of people. Obverse five, whether it was five or 5A. And I'm concerned that this is not an accurate drawing. It's not a drawing of a plane that exists. wants to be a B-2. It However, a B-2 doesn't have a planar bottom on it like that. And importantly, the trailing edge on the wings is not a straight line. So I don’t think that's an accurate -- I don’t think that passes the factual accuracy test. And otherwise graphically it's a wonderful design because it's so dramatic and it's so -- these designs so carve out the palette. But I have to question again whether it's appropriate. For all the fun in picking these designs, my coming in favorite was also obverse eight because I felt like it was energetic. I felt like it was very simple, very straightforward, would appeal to the energetics and the facts of an Air Force motivated buyer of this product. I understand the preference and the thoughts behind obverse one. I think it borders on being busy. And if we were to go with one, I would want to change the text on it to something again more appropriate. As I go through the obverse designs, obverse 10 was something I liked. From a pure artistic design perspective, I loved the artist's thoughts that went into 11, 11A and 12. Perhaps this is a better reverse than an obverse. I especially liked, quite frankly, 11 with the way the stars are treated on 12. contrails and the swooping jet. I like the three If any of us have been to an airshow, that's always an exciting moment to watch and at the same time feel what the pilots are experiencing as they go through a tight turn like that. I think that's a sensation that we all share with the pilots when we're watching an airshow. But in terms of the artistic design, I like the threesome of 11. treated. But I like the way the stars are And I think the sculptors and the texturing and so forth available to us make the way the stars are treated on 12 better. So I'm frustrated that if I were to only have these four images, that would be obverse 10, 11, 11A and 12, I could make a gorgeous medal out of this with 10 as the obverse and a modified 11 on the reverse. So what you do with that when you vote, I have no idea. When I look at the reverse designs, I find these were not nearly as gratifying as the obverse portfolio. I hear some support for reverse four. However, I'm questioning to a casual observer or to a buyer of this medal whether that is going to appeal to them or not. spires of the memorial. I see the memorial, the curved And perhaps due to my lack of familiarity with it, maybe that's the defining element of this design. I'm not sure. On the reverse, I'm challenged to find one that I like the best. like reverse 11. It hasn't been mentioned. It's a little busy. I Again, I don’t like the text on it. I'm at a bit of a loss. I told you how I'd design this medal and it's to pick two designs out of the obverse set. Thank you. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, Erik. I want to add a comment based on your comments that I think what we should do is just vote on the designs for the merit of each one, no matter what packet it's in. And then, we can address afterwards if we want to change the pairing from obverse to reverse. MR. JANSEN: So we would change the voting to pick your top two designs and -MS. WASTWEET: MR. JANSEN: MS. WASTWEET: Yeah. Just vote. -- we'll try to stack them up. Vote each design on the merits of itself and then we can use motions afterwards to talk about pairings. MR. WEINMAN: MR. JANSEN: Obverse/reverse. Thank you for that accommodation. I appreciate it. MS. WASTWEET: Obverse/reverse. And also, based on Dennis' comment about he had thrown out some designs because of the text, I would say don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. The way the text is on all of these, it's not so critical to the design that we can't talk about that as an after-effect. But I wouldn't want to throw out a really gorgeous design just because the text isn't perfect. So moving forward, Tom, please? MR. URAM: great designs. Thank you, Madam Chair. We do have And I was trying to pair them up in regard to air and land. You know, how can I get the air on one side and the land on the other side to represent all that the Air Force does. I do like design obverse one in the fact that there's a lot of motion going on. The background of the land beneath and the way that the planes are moving I think has a lot of motion. I don’t like 1A at all other than the fact that it looks too much like a poster. It looks like a recruiting poster to me, you know, just -- not that it's a bad design. It's just that I don’t think on the coin that it -- it's just going to be too onedimensional for me. I like design number two. But I would probably take out obviously what we just talked about, "CRITICAL TO THE PAST." I'd take that out and maybe I see where the artist is trying to show the curve and the linear in the look of the plane as it relates to the Earth below. I don’t know that it accomplishes it. So if I'm going with my concept of air and land, I kind of fall to number eight. You have the dynamics of the falcon and the lightning rod and the plane. And then, I would probably switch to the land being number four, which is the stakeholder's choice as well. And it brings in the significance of the appropriate legend sand logos of the Air Force. I do like design number two as well. However, you would -- if we went with eight and two, you'd have really no individuals represented. And I think that having the individuals somewhere on the medal is important. So I would go with the stakeholder's choice of number four because it's appropriate. lot of good designs, a lot of creativity. There are a It's too bad. In particular, like I said, I really like number two. It's nice and clean and it has a lot of symbolism there. I really would have liked that as a two and four combination. But keeping in the thoughts of the air and land, I'm going to probably lean towards number eight as the obverse and number four as the reverse. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. WASTWEET: MR. HOGE: Thank you. Robert? Thank you, Madam Chair. difficulties with a number of these designs. I had some First of all -REPORTER: Could you pull your mic closer to you, please? MR. HOGE: of these designs. I had some difficulties with some First of all, we have images of what are interpreted as female pilots, for instance, or other technicians. But, you know, really this is sort of a matter of gender stereotyping in terms of facial appearances. Why isn't number 1A, for instance, a woman as well? Just because the guy is squinting? that's a man instead of a woman? this all feminine features? a young man? We think And number 1A, is Why isn't this necessarily I mean, who's to say on this kind of thing? So I think that we -- whether we're selecting for showing females or not, we need to bear in mind that this is stereotyping in one form or another. The same kind of thing occurs when we try to select pieces in our many programs that show racial stereotyping. I mean, this is a little bit weird also. My favorite design of these, no one else has mentioned yet, is obverse number two. I think the F-35 flying over the map showing America is really kind of a powerful image. We've got the stars in the background. Not that it necessarily should include the inscription "CRITICAL TO THE PAST," "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE." I also questioned where does this come from. I'd never heard of this before when I saw these designs in the package. Number eight is a powerful design. But I'd question the usefulness of showing the falcon and the jet with the lightning bolt like this. It's a combination of things that it's really very weird. And some people would look at this and say, well, that doesn't look like it's a very good representation of an eagle. a falcon. Of course it isn't. It's And the falcon is the symbol of the Air Force. But not everyone knows this sort of thing. Being from Colorado, of course I do. Go Falcons. But I would think that that might be a problem issue. I don’t want to include number three because of its Mount Rushmore. That's already been dealt with in numismatics to a great extent. I think numbers one, 1A and four are just too busy looking, a lot of fine details. And also, I'm not very fond of the obverses or reverses that show the contrails because a contrail is an extremely evanescent thing. I mean, this has -- it has no three- dimensionality. the sky. You see this little bit of a haze in And trying to represent this sort of thing on a low relief sculpture I think is really just kind of a poor idea. The same kind of thing holds true with a problem that I have with what are evidently these long contrails that are part of the Air Force Memorial. To me, these look like big tentacles of some kind of alien monster coming up, for instance, in number four. This is a very militaristic-looking design. And we have seen one form of military after another after another in all of our coins and medals program. I had a good friend, a retired Air Force man, who told me, oh Robert, the air Force, that's the most you can do in the United States as a part of the Armed Forces without being in the military. (Laughter.) MS. LANNIN: MR. HOGE: Oh, dear. Okay. He was a wonderful old fellow, a Native American too, I might add. some difficulties with these. So as I say, I have The designs themselves are quite attractive. I find number two is probably my favorite for an obverse, perhaps minus the inscription. And for the reverses, no one else has mentioned this, but number 15 is very plain, very graphic. It doesn't have any three-dimensionality to it at all. But it says what needs to be said, United States Air Force. And I can see that combined with obverse two, which just simply shows the jet protecting the United States, flying over it in the sky. We have a little connection to Canada and Mexico there, even Cuba. But basically this is like it's over watching, overlooking the United States. I like it. I like the F-35 representation a bit more than the B-2 representations on number five and 5A. And that does it for me. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, Robert. On to you, Mike. MR. MORAN: Thank you, Heidi. Well, I'm going to join the increasing ranks here of people that do not like the "CRITICAL TO THE PAST," "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE." To me, it was created for the occasion. It has no historical precedence and it becomes very quickly ground clutter when you look at these designs. And regardless of what we choose for an obverse, I'll certainly make the motion -- and it could go down in flames -- that that be dropped. So I won't rub it into the ground anymore. If we look at number two -- I guess I am going to rub it into the ground. design. Number two is a good The jet is actually rising. stars above. You have the It is over the United States. It's protecting the United States. Drop the "CRITICAL TO THE PAST," "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE." It just gets in the way of what is really there, which is a very good artistic representation and good allegories as well. It will get some of my votes. Number seven, I know we're not going to choose it. But I just want to point it out. That's a really nice rendition of a falcon coming down on a prey. I like the way that the lightning bisects -- it doesn't bisect, but it divides the design of the U.S. Air Force, the inscription below it. creative. It's just really And I'm going to again give it votes. But I do not expect it to win. Number eight, also good. But I still go with number two. Let's go over to the reverses. like number 10. And I really It gets the mottos in there. the Air Force Memorial in there. It gets It gets the logo in there. The sweep of the contrails is artistic and will look nice. beginning. I was drawn to it from the very And none of the comments, pro and con, on the reverses has really swayed me on that. I would also though like to make a comment on number 15. That's really -- I like the change in fonts, United States versus the Air Force. It is a clean, simple reverse. I don’t like it as well as number 10. really is good. But it And I like the creativity the artist used in dealing with the inscriptions there. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. WASTWEET: a hard pick. Thank you. This is going to be There's a lot of good designs here and I want to remind everyone to vote on our system of one to three, as three being excellent designs, two being moderate designs, one being an okay design. And just rely on our system to bring the cream to the top rather than trying to just pick your one favorite design. I think that's going to serve us well in this packet, since we have so many good designs. And I agree with other comments that a lot of these would be served well to simply drop the "CRITICAL TO THE PAST," "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE" text. Historically we have, as a committee, always preferred less text versus more. And I think this is a good occasion to simplify the text. On obverse one, I was really excited when I saw this in my packet because we are often restricted by what we can put on a coin because of the technical need for division between the field, the background and the image. In a medal, we have a lot more leeway that we can have more subtle things going on in the background. And this design really utilizes that and it takes a graphic image in the background to really add to the dynamic angles of this design. There's a lot of action here, which we have asked for in the past. I agree with Robert that this face could be, you know, made to be androgynous. to be male or female. So it doesn't have That would be an easy thing to do and make it work for all aspects. So I think it's a really great, fun, dynamic design and suitable for the palate. Design 1A, I also loved this for the same reasons. Design two, just as we talked in the last packet about that forward-facing ship that would work well because of the angles coming forward, in the same regard, I think this one would not work. There's too much foreshortening with too much mechanical detail here. When we reduce this to the very shallow palate, I don’t think this is going to work well. It looks better in the drawing. On number five, I like the idea here. But I agree with Erik that the accuracy of the mechanics could get us into trouble. And on eight, I'm not really fond of this design. And I really like -- for this program, I like the planes to be going up rather than flying down toward the Earth. Design 10, I think you can fit a lot onto a medal. And whether it's busy or not really depends on the organization of that detail. You can put a lot of detail on there if it's organized and it's harmonious and it makes sense within itself. This one I feel is more collagey and less organized. And therefore, I find it more busy than, for example, one and 1A, which has a lot going on, but they're very organized. Designs 11, 11A and 12 are very attractive. But they would work better on a very small -- if we had a small gold coin, I'd be all over these designs because they're great and they're graphic and they're fun. But we have so much opportunity with what we can do in a medal, that it's a missed opportunity to go just with this simple graphic image, especially on an obverse. This would not draw me as a buyer of coins. I would just look right past this. I wouldn't reach for my wallet. On the reverses, I'm not particularly fond of one. I think the foreshortening again on this -- the nose of this plane isn't going to work very well in the shallow relief. And I find it a little -- just a little bit busy and disorganized. I want to call out design number three. I think this is a really fun design with the angles, the graphic additions with the planes. artist on this. I commend the I'm not sure it's going to work for this program or rise to the top. But I want to commend it. Design four, I like the idea here. for the reasons that the liaison mentioned. I like it I like that the bayonet breaks the barrier as well as the monument. Very nice drawing, very nice design. there's a lot going on. Again, But it's organized, where some of the others are too busy. Reverse 12, this one really appeals to me because it's clean and simple. But yet it's dynamic and it still makes use of the large palate. negative space. And I like Whereas design 15 I think is nice and clean, but just crosses a line over into too simple for my taste. With that, is there any additional discussion? Robert? MR. HOGE: Something I'd noticed here is that -- I don’t know if this is a problem or not -- oh, pardon me. Something that I've noticed, I'm not sure if it's a problem or not, is in comparison of obverse 1A with obverse 10, we have the identical portrayal of the pilot here. But the equipment is completely different. You'll notice on number 10 there's a tube coming out of the headset or the pilot's neck and we're missing the tube, which apparently would have been for airflow, out of the side of the facemask. You've got a tiny tube at the bottom. I'm just wondering what is going on. one is correct? Which On number 10, the drone looks like it has a little something that's touching the tip of the pilot's breast. And this is -- MR. MORAN: MR. HOGE: Sexual harassment. -- this is kind of a confused design and I wonder which of these is more correct. shows the same equipment as obverse one. But 10, 1A although it is intended to be essentially the same image, has different equipment. I don’t know if this can be explained. MS. WASTWEET: When it comes to those very fine technical details of equipment, I think it's best to leave it up to the liaison to work with the Mint to correct those. MR. HOGE: Could they give us a comment about this? MS. WASTWEET: MR. URAM: Yeah. I think number one, though, is in the air and number 10 is on the ground. She's not -- he or she is not flying in number 10. MR. HOGE: Same helmet. MR. JANSEN: MR. URAM: Or 1A. One is definitely flying. MS. STAFFORD: So as we move through the development of designs, we work as closely as we can with our liaisons to give us feedback about technical and historical accuracy. Sometimes designs such as 1A, for example, are late additions because we've requested like a new composition or a new figure, a new depiction of a figure. And so, we're aware of some of the designs we would have to go back in and dial in the details with regard to accuracy or technical equipment. Anything that is moving forward as a recommendation though, you're correct, we would go back to our liaisons and ensure that every piece is absolutely accurate. So the question for our liaisons on the phone -MR. HOGE: Between one and 10. MS. STAFFORD: MR. HOGE: -- with regard to -- The equipment. MS. STAFFORD: -- the accuracy of equipment, can you comment on 1A and 10 from the obverse portfolio? We know that we would have to go back and ensure accuracy with you. But are you able to speak to which items would need to be looked at? DR. HARRIS: The helmet and mask combination represents the F-35 pilots, as far as I'm aware. we can have an expert look at it. But We did comment earlier on the way the mask connects to the helmet. But we can actually get someone wearing the helmet and get specific photographs to the artist. MR. WEINMAN: In the interest of time, I might recommend that we take this offline. DR. HARRIS: I think more of our overarching comments, the falcon, just for everyone's background information, represents the Air Force Academy, not the Air Force writ large. I know that has nothing to do with the question at hand, but something we wanted to raise. And we can get you those answers on the helmet in due course. MS. WASTWEET: appreciated comments. Thank you. All right. Those are greatly So I'd like to call for a vote while we go to break now for lunch. MR. MORAN: I take it we write in obverse two and obverse seven. MR. JANSEN: appear on the ballot. MR. TUCKER: MR. WEINMAN: MR. JANSEN: MR. WEINMAN: Yeah, and obverse two doesn't Fifteen -What time will we reconvene? April? Do you want -- 12:30? -- to try to reconvene in 45 minutes? MS. STAFFORD: I'd just like to ask Jim and Bill, are you able to join us at the top of the next session if we reconvene at 12:30? DR. HARRIS: MS. STAFFORD: Yeah. We could join in at 12:30. That would be great. The committee will have down-selected at that point and I think your input would be very helpful for them to go on to make a recommendation. MS. WASTWEET: DR. HARRIS: Absolutely. Same number and passcode? MS. WASTWEET: Yes. MS. STAFFORD: Yes, sir. DR. HARRIS: MS. WASTWEET: Thank you so much. Okay. Okay. We are on break until 12:30. MR. WEINMAN: We're in recess until 12:30. (Whereupon, the foregoing went off the record at 11:44 a.m., and went back on the record at 12:21 p.m.) MS. WASTWEET: First, we're going to look at the results of the voting on the Air Force. MR. WEINMAN: Okay. Ready? Interesting results. MS. LANNIN: Hang on, just a sec. MS. STAFFORD: MR. WEINMAN: Are our liaisons back on? Are our Air Force liaisons back on the phone? DR. HARRIS: We are. MR. WEINMAN: Excellent. Okay. The obverse, you want to go to obverse first, Roger? MR. HARRIGAL: MR. WEINMAN: Yes. Good. most votes with 17 votes. votes. Sorry. Obverse one received the Obverse 1A received 10 Obverse two received seven. received two. Obverse four received zero. Obverse five received 13. zero. Obverse three Obverse seven received three. received nine votes. Obverse 5A received Obverse eight Obverse 10 received six votes. Obverse 11 received six votes. 11A received one vote. And obverse 12 received three votes. Moving now toward to the reverses, reverse one received zero. Reverse two received five. three received 11 votes. Reverse Reverse four, which is the top vote getter, received 12, which is notable that it is below the required number. zero. Reverse five received Reverse six received three. Reverse eight received one. Reverse nine received one. received six. Reverse 11 received one. received 11 votes. Reverse 10 Reverse 12 And reverse 15 received seven votes. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, Greg. So that means our top picks, number one on the obverse, with a close second -MR. WEINMAN: MS. WASTWEET: 13. Obverse number five. Five is our second choice at And then, on the reverse, we have a less than minimum 12 votes on number four. So if we adapt number four -- hmm? MS. LANNIN: And two at 11. Two received 11 votes. MS. WASTWEET: MR. JANSEN: MS. WASTWEET: Right. Yeah, and -So if we go with our top -- just automatically go with our top picks vote-wise, we would have one paired with four. MR. WEINMAN: Or with five, or with obverse five. MR. JANSEN: With all due respect, to make a hard cut at 12 doesn't make sense -- 12 votes doesn't make sense to me, with a couple of designs coming in at 11. MS. WASTWEET: MR. JANSEN: Okay. I mean -- MS. WASTWEET: MR. JANSEN: Yeah. -- there's a bit of a hard drop after 11. I don’t see any tens. There may be a niner in there. But it seems to me that a hard line gets drawn at 11, not 12. MS. WASTWEET: I agree. So we really have three close runners. MR. JANSEN: But there is a 10. But it's an offshoot of obverse one. DR. VIOLA: MR. JANSEN: that. Which one was 10? Obverse 1A got 10 votes, as I got So as you kind of stack up and look at where there's a hard cut, it looks like the cut's at 11 to me and we have five designs. MS. WASTWEET: Is there any discussion about - - does anyone not -- would anyone have a problem with number four reverse being our pick? Is anyone opposed to that? MR. MORAN: I'm not in love with it. MS. WASTWEET: MR. JANSEN: But is there any opposition? Likewise. DR. VIOLA: I'm not either. MR. MORAN: Yeah, I would call to everybody's mind -MS. LANNIN: What did you -- I didn't hear what you said, Mike. MR. MORAN: -- Erik's statement about nouns and verbs. MR. JANSEN: And to me, reverse four could be any military medal you want. So to me, it isn't very significantly apropos for Air Force. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Well, to -- MR. HOGE: My old Air Force buddy -- (off mic) REPORTER: I'm sorry. -- comment. I couldn't hear that MR. WEINMAN: phone, please. your phones. Somebody -- somebody mute your Everybody on the phone, please mute Thank you. MS. WASTWEET: And if we were to pick a reverse from the obverse packet, we'd be looking at number five as having 13 votes, which is more than the 12 votes for number four reverse. Personally I would prefer reverse four. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. WASTWEET: For a reverse? For a reverse over obverse five. MR. JANSEN: Well, obverse five has got some factual problems. MS. WASTWEET: MS. LANNIN: MS. WASTWEET: I agree with you, yeah. It's still pretty. Yes, it is. So if there's no objection, we could simply go with our recommendation and then move forward to talk about the text. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I think that's what we should do. MS. WASTWEET: All right. So would anyone like to make a motion about the text on the obverse? Mike? MR. MORAN: MR. HOGE: MR. MORAN: I move that we remove the text -"CRITICAL TO THE PAST" --- "CRITICAL TO THE PAST," "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE" from the obverse design. MS. WASTWEET: MR. URAM: Second. MR. TUCKER: Second. MS. WASTWEET: Tom gets the second. Do I have a second? Tom's hand went up first. So Any discussion? MR. JANSEN: In the discussion, would there be a replacement there or just creating negative space on the design? MS. WASTWEET: MR. URAM: MR. MORAN: I like negative space. I think that would -Same here. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I think negative space would be great. MR. MORAN: I mean, we commit the same sin if we generate something else. MR. JANSEN: So I personally believe "INTEGRITY," "SERVICE" and "EXCELLENCE," if I only abbreviate, therefore would have to be on the reverse. MR. HOGE: Correct. MS. WASTWEET: MR. TUCKER: MS. WASTWEET: It would be. I -- Madam Chair, that -Say again? You broke up, Dennis. MR. TUCKER: Yes. If we do choose reverse four as the reverse, we could move "ESTABLISHED 1947" to the obverse. I just wanted to throw that out as a possibility. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. TUCKER: bit. Oh, that's a good idea. It would declutter the reverse a But we would lose some of that negative space. MS. WASTWEET: My personal opinion is that if we remove that from number four, then we end up with some blank space behind the soldier's head -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. WASTWEET: Right. -- that doesn't really balance well with the other negative spaces. MR. TUCKER: MS. WASTWEET: and a second. Okay. All right. So we have a motion So let's vote on everyone in favor of removing the text "CRITICAL TO THE FUTURE," "ESSENTIAL TO THE," -- excuse me, "CRITICAL TO THE PAST," "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE" from obverse number one, all in favor, say aye. (Chorus of ayes.) MS. WASTWEET: MR. URAM: All opposed? Motion carries. Just one other technical then. Would you drop the U.S. Air Force sign or leave it up to them to make sure that it's balanced? MS. WASTWEET: MR. URAM: I would leave it where it is. Okay. MS. STAFFORD: Madam Chair? MS. WASTWEET: Yes? MS. STAFFORD: Madam Chair? When we had initial discussions with our liaisons about this portfolio, regarding reverse four, we did share that it was their very, very strong preference. They also discussed the possibility of having the Air Force logo perhaps in the place of the "ESTABLISHED 1947." I don’t -- I just wanted to share that with the committee. I don’t know if you want to have -- ask the liaison to confirm if that's still their position. But -MS. WASTWEET: Thank you for bringing that up. I think that that would be fine to leave up to the workout between the Mint and the liaison, anything in that space that keeps the balance I think will still serve us well. I would like to bring up the face on number one. I loved the fact that 1A was a female face and I think the liaison was really liking that too. So I would like to throw out a suggestion. don’t know if it rises to the level of a motion. I But I would like to suggest that maybe the Mint consider making that face either androgynous or female behind the mask. Mary? MS. LANNIN: Heidi, the way that it is right now, how do you know it's not female? MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: mute your phone. Exactly. It's not much of a -- Could somebody please -- please We're hearing background noise. Please mute your phones. MS. LANNIN: woman. Yeah. To me, this could be a And so, I have no problem with the art as it is. I would leave it. Eyebrows? Okay. We're all worried about eyebrows. MS. WASTWEET: MS. LANNIN: Yeah, the eyebrows are -All right. Leave it up to the artist's discretion to make it whichever way they -MR. URAM: Gender-neutral. MS. LANNIN: Gender-neutral. MS. WASTWEET: Gender-neutral, or a little more feminine, something like that. MR. MORAN: Why don’t we leave that as just a critical comment -MS. WASTWEET: MR. MORAN: Yeah. -- and let the artist and the Mint deal with it? MR. LANNIN: Sure. MS. WASTWEET: MR. MORAN: I agree. All right. But there's a sense of how we feel. MS. WASTWEET: set? Any other discussion on this Then we will move forward. Next order of business is a review of the designs for the 2021 Native American $1 Coin Program. April, I'll hand that over to you. And I think it would make sense if we looked at both of those together. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. And can I just ask our Air Force liaisons, if you're still with us, we want to thank you for joining us. Certainly we will be in touch with you after the meeting. 2021-2022 NATIVE AMERICAN $1 COIN PROGRAM MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Public Law 110-82, the Native American Dollar Coin Act, requires the secretary of the treasury to mint and issue dollar coins in honor of Native Americans and the important contributions made by Indian tribes and individual Native Americans to the development and history of the United States. The act mandates a reverse design for these coins with an image emblematic of an important Native American or Native American contribution each year. There is no longer a requirement, as there was through the year 2016, to release these coins in chronological order of the contribution that was being represented. The candidate designs you will see today were developed on the following themes: for the year 2021, American Indians in the U.S. military service; and, for 2022, Ely S. Parker. Per the established process, these themes were initially developed by the National Museum of the American Indian and then vetted by our legislative consultants, including the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs, the Congressional Native American Caucus of the House of Representatives and the National Congress of the American Indian in early 2018. Per the legislative consultants' request, the Mint further consulted with the Tonawanda Seneca Nation for their input on the 2022 Ely S. Parker theme. Artists submitted designs, which were reviewed by experts at the National Museum of the American Indian for technical and historic accuracy and appropriateness and then revised before being sent to the legislative consultants. Again, the designs for 2022 were also reviewed by representatives from the Tonawanda Seneca Nation. All designs are reverses to accompany the existing Sacagawea obverse, which includes the inscriptions "LIBERTY" and "IN GOD WE TRUST." We have an image here for the committee members to reference. Edge-incused inscriptions include "E PLURIBUS UNUM" and the year of issuance. Required reverse inscriptions include "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" and "$1". 2021: AMERICAN INDIANS IN U.S. MILITARY SERVICE We'll start with 2021, the American Indians in U.S. military service. American Indians have served in the Armed Forces of the United States in each of our nation’s conflicts, beginning with the American Revolutionary War and our quest for independence from Great Britain. Their valor has been recognized by many decorations, including five Medals of Honor during World War II. This exemplary record of military service continues to this day. Some of our consultants, which include the Committee on Indian Affairs of the Senate, the Congressional Native American Caucus of the House of Representatives, the National Congress of American Indians and the Smithsonian’s National Museum of the American Indian, have noted that American Indians have served in the U.S. military at a higher rate in proportion to their population than any other American ethnic group. The candidate designs for the 2021 Native American dollar coin, we'll start with designs one and 1A. These designs use uniforms to represent how American Indians in the U.S. military service spans every era of U.S. history. On the left side is a U.S. soldier of the American Revolutionary War and on the right is a U.S. soldier of the present day. This is design one. In design 1A, seen here, the stripes of the U.S. flag appear in the background. The element that unifies the past with the present is the tomahawk, a versatile weapon unique to the early Native American arsenal that was passed down and still in use by today’s American ground forces. Additional inscriptions include “U.S.” in design one and “AMERICAN INDIANS IN U.S. MILITARY SERVICE” in 1A. Design one was the second preference of the National Congress of the American Indians. Moving on to design two and 2A, these designs depict three soldiers representing Native Americans who fought in the American Revolutionary War through the current day. Two soldiers from the past look back, while the modern soldier looks forward. Five stars represent branches of the military forces. In 2A, seen here, the circle (often called the sacred circle) is emblematic of many things in many Native American cultures, with the common thread being the living world in balance with no beginning and no end. Both designs feature the additional inscription “PROUD & COURAGEOUS SERVICE OF NATIVE AMERICANS.” Design three features an eagle, which is highly revered and considered sacred in Native American culture. Here, the eagle serves as a symbol of the values and abilities of Native American service members, and the high regard held for that service. Symbolic elements of five stars and a circle define the outline of the eagle. Included in the design is the additional inscription “NATIVE AMERICANS IN U.S. ARMED FORCES SINCE 1775.” Designs four and 4A feature eagle feathers, which were traditionally earned in battle or by performing a brave deed. Eagle feathers are revered and respected, receiving the utmost care and handling, and are to be displayed proudly in homes. Stars representing five branches of the U.S. military are in the foreground, while in 4A, seen here, a circle provides an additional reference to Native Americans. Included in the designs is the inscription “NATIVE AMERICANS – DISTINGUISHED MILITARY SERVICE SINCE 1775.” Designs five and 5A show three Native Americans in the U.S. military. In the center, a man is dressed and adorned as a Native American man might have been while serving in the American Revolutionary War. On the left, a woman saluting wears the uniform of the Women’s Army Air Corps of World War II and, on the right, a man is outfitted as a modern day Marine, carrying an M16A4 rifle. Together, these three figures represent the range of time periods in which Native Americans have served their country during war. Design five features the additional inscription “AMERICAN INDIANS IN US MILITARY SERVICE.” And design 5A. Design six features a Native American soldier in contemporary battle gear, a Native American riding bareback and a variety of military vehicles and aircraft from different eras. These elements identify the contributions of Native Americans not only as fighting soldiers, but also as pilots, gunners, engineers, medics, intelligence officers and other personnel. In 6A, seen here, the design eliminates the vehicles from the composition. Included in both designs is the additional inscription “NATIVE AMERICANS IN MILITARY SERVICE.” Design seven features a Native American soldier saluting during World War I. Included in the design is the inscription “NATIVE AMERICAN SERVICE.” Designs eight and nine feature a soldier together with an eagle staff, the American Indian equivalent of the national flag, and the United States flag, representing the heritage, traditions and patriotism of Native American warriors. In design eight, seen here, the soldier proudly salutes the eagle staff and the flag, while in design nine, the eagle staff and the flag are held in the soldier’s grasp. The National Congress of American Indians identifies design nine as its first preference. Designs 10 and 10A depict two Native American figures, one as an Oneida Warrior serving during the American Revolutionary War, and the other as a contemporary soldier currently defending our nation. Additional inscriptions include “A TRADITION OF SERVICE” in design 10 and “A NATIVE AMERICAN TRADITION OF SERVICE” in 10A, seen here. Design 11 depicts a young Native American soldier who kneels for a moment to remember and pay respect to his elders, those ancestors who have served in the military to help defend the United States as well as the great warriors who participated in customary tribal warfare. The war bonnet the young man wears symbolizes this tradition and is a reminder that for many Native Americans, modern military service is a continuation of the warrior’s role in Native cultures. Additional elements include 13 stars and the inscription “HONORING AMERICAN INDIANS IN U.S. MILITARY.” That concludes the candidate designs for 2021. So you want me to go on to 2022? MS. WASTWEET: Yes, please. MR. TUCKER: May I ask for a clarification? MS. WASTWEET: MR. TUCKER: Go ahead, Dennis. Could you tell me again, you mentioned number one and number nine as being preferences. But I think they were preferences of two different liaisons. Was that right? MS. STAFFORD: So Dennis, we have numerous liaisons in this program. MR. TUCKER: MS. STAFFORD: Yes. And we are sharing the feedback that we received from any and all of those liaisons. So specifically for design one, it was the second preference of the National Congress of the American Indians. And design nine was the first preference of the National Congress of American Indians. MR. TUCKER: Okay. So number one was choice two and number nine was first. Okay. Thank you. I just -- I was making notes and I didn't catch that. MR. WEINMAN: MR. JANSEN: MR. WEINMAN: I think it's important -Were there preferences -This is Greg. It's important to note that this program doesn't have a recipient or an affinity group like commemoratives. These are simply organizations that are stated -- that we consulted with as part of the legislative requirements. So it's a little bit different from other programs. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. So we'll go on to sharing the candidate designs for the 2022 Native American -MR. TUCKER: interrupt. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to I would actually like to recommend that we treat these two programs separately and not try to mash them up into a single conversation. I think they deserve that. I think they're very different themes and they each deserve individual attention. MR. JANSEN: I would agree with that. MS. WASTWEET: Dennis. Okay. I will agree with you, Let's do that. MR. WEINMAN: This is Greg again. I would just ask that please be mindful of the time and the clock -MS. WASTWEET: Yes. MR. WEINMAN: -- when you give your comments if that's what we're going to do, which is fine. Just be mindful of the clock. MS. WASTWEET: All right. Yeah. I was hoping to combine them to save a little bit of time. So if you keep that in mind as you go through, then that will help us stay on track today because we have a very full packet. So in that regard, we'll consider them separately. And I will go ahead to start the comments, if there aren't any other technical questions around the table, Erik. MR. JANSEN: Ron, a question on the Mint's ability, willingness to do texturing in a circulating coin. I don’t mean frost. In particular, I'm going to talk about design number one, where we have a left and a right side. And one of the contrasts I'd like to draw is could you take what's shown as kind of grayscale texturing on the left half of this, could you treat that the way the kind of background on a buffalo -- on the obverse of the buffalo nickel is, where you kind of have a rolling facet in the background? That's probably a poor description, so that it isn't a flat negative space like the right-hand side in this drawing might be. MR. HARRIGAL: Well, certainly if it's something the committee would want to go forward with, we could take a look at it. I mean, we have textured water and polished it and things like that. It takes a little extra work on the die finishing -MR. JANSEN: MR. HARRIGAL: done that. Yeah. -- side of it. But we have And you go back to some of the -- like the first America the Beautiful quarter, in Arkansas, in the door, we did texture of the background around the door and things like that. So there are things we can do. MR. JANSEN: circulating. This is a -- this is a This isn't like the innovation dollars that are one, two, three million kind of. MR. HARRIGAL: It's the same -- MS. WASTWEET: The circulation coins that don’t circulate. MR. JANSEN: Thank you. MR. TUCKER: These are not really for circulation. MR. JANSEN: Yeah. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you. Herman, can you start us off, please? DR. VIOLA: Thank you. I'm pleased to speak on behalf of this -MR. WEINMAN: MR. JANSEN: DR. VIOLA: Microphone. Push the button. Is it on? MR. WEINMAN: DR. VIOLA: Okay. There you go. Can you hear me? Yes. Okay. on behalf of this coin. I'm very pleased to speak It is extremely important, especially today, because Congress has authorized that the Museum of the American Indian build a memorial on the Mall in honor of American Indian veterans. And a design has been selected. This is an extremely important moment for American Indians. And just everyone realizes why this is so important. Indians are about the most patriotic people in American history. Distinguished military service began with the American Revolution. They have been in uniform in every conflict to the present time. For example, in World War II, if all Americans had volunteered for the military at the rate Indians did, there would have been no need for a draft. Some tribes gave almost all their manpower and their female power. small. And some of these tribes are very But they went in. World War I, when Indians weren't even citizens, something like 10,000 Indians volunteered to fight overseas. And they made horrendous sacrifices. The U.S. Expeditionary Force suffered 1 percent casualties. percent. But the Indians suffered 5 And because they were always at the forefront, they were trying to live up to their warrior traditions. For example, one family, the Decorah family from Wisconsin, Foster Decorah went in with his three sons and he and one of his sons were killed on the same day. These are the stories that we know nothing about really in our textbooks or whatever. But it's so important. And that's why I'm so pleased to see that we're finally going to help recognize their contribution and that's -- and the designs we have here are really -- some of them are really quite good. But again, some of them, we want to be careful about. For example, number 11, that's just a typical stereotypical Indian. war bonnets like that. Indians -- relatively few wore And so, they would not be very happy to see that. The number nine, with the eagle staff and the flag, that is very prominent today in Indian country. When you go to an Indian reservation and you go to a powwow or you go to a gathering, they'll have their eagle staff and the American flag. It is just basic to their culture. Now, for me, the one I like best is number 4A. And these are the eagle feathers. You have the circle, which is really a very important cultural concept. And in fact, the design that we're going to have for the memorial incorporates that key design. And the eagle feather is so important to this very day in Indian country and especially in the military. You'd be amazed how many soldiers carry eagle feathers hidden in their uniform. For example, I'll just tell one story. Joe Medicine Crow, he died last year at the age of 102. He was a World War II, just comes from a long line of warrior people. He adopted me about 30 years ago. And he confided with me that when he was in World War II, he had an eagle feather always in his helmet. And he said it saved his life. He said, for example, he was walking along a hillside. An artillery shell came. It knocked him off the hill and he rolled all the way down the hill. lost his rifle. backpack. He lost his helmet. He He lost his But he didn't get a scratch. And he said, if I started crawling back up that hill, I got my backpack, I got my rifle, I got my helmet and the eagle feather was still in there. And he said, then, when I came home, I gave the eagle feather to one of my Crow colleagues who was a pilot. And he wore that eagle feather on his bombing runs and he never got hurt. And his grandson -- grandnephew, Carson Walks Over Ice, Vietnam, he always had an eagle feather. And he put it in the netting around his helmet and it was in his helmet. And he said that kept me safe. And he said that was -- I was an Indian and they saw me in combat. So anyhow, this goes on constantly. Indians won't ever reveal that they keep all these things. they do. But And it's a spiritual protector. And in case something -- say the worse happens and they do die, at least the eagle feather then will escort them to the afterlife because the eagle is the mediator between heaven and earth. And so, they feel they're protected on all fronts, here or in the hereafter. So anyhow, that's why I would support voting for number 4A. It has the message on there, "DISTINGUISHED MILITARY SERVICE," which then really doesn't need any explanation because they really, to this day, by ethnicity, Indians are the highest represented group in our military forces at the moment. And it's going to continue as long as our country is still having all these conflicts. Thank you. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, Herman. MS. STAFFORD: Madam Chair? I was just going to say we may have Jim Adams from the National Museum of the American Museum also on the phone. wanted to check. worked. He was one of the folks with who we Jim, are you on the line? to check. I just Okay. Just wanted Thank you. MS. WASTWEET: Let's go to Dennis on the phone. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. thank you, Herman, for that commentary. And As I was looking through this portfolio, I was struck by the fact that some of the designs are symbolic and some of them are figural. So I have favorites in each of those categories. And Herman, like you, I was really drawn to the symbolism in four and 4A with the feathers. the symbolism. I like But I wonder if it might be a better design symbolically if the stars and feathers are made to intertwine rather than the stars being set on top of the feathers. In my mind, this would reinforce the concept of Native Americans being part of the military and the military being part of the Native American experience, a combination, not one element on top of the other. To me, one on top of the other implies dominance or conquest rather than collaboration and inclusion. And I think back to Heidi's comment earlier this morning about the artist's intention versus the viewer's interpretation. So this might be a question for Herman. this a significant concern? Is And also a question for Ron, would there be any technical challenges to having some of the stars appear to be behind the feathers and that kind of construction in the design. For the figural choices, I actually liked number two. I think it's an organized composition. It's detailed. But it's not overly busy. And we have seen this level of detail on other Native American dollar coins, which are just an inch in diameter. The 2013 treaty with the Delawares and the 2018 Jim Thorpe dollars have fine detail in the compositions. But the coins are still very readable, even though they do have that small diameter. After hearing Herman's commentary, I think my greatest weight will go to either four or 4A, I guess 4A because it includes the circle design. And Herman, if you would, just -- a moment on that idea of the stars and the feathers, one being on top of the other or whether they should be intertwined or is that not significant. DR. VIOLA: Okay. Let's see. I'm not sure if this is working. MR. JANSEN: DR. VIOLA: There you go. Okay. MS. WASTWEET: first? Dennis, if I could jump in I want to -- in my opinion, that would be too much of an artistic change from what we have to intertwine the feathers and the stars. While I like the idea and it sounds like a simple thing to do, artistically there's still a lot of variables there and I feel that would be too much design by committee to really make that happen. And as to your other question to Ron, he stepped out of the room for a moment. So we'll put that on hold. MR. TUCKER: Okay. MS. WASTWEET: Herman, do you want to add something? DR. VIOLA: Okay. thought of intertwining. designer. Well, I really like the But, I mean, I'm not a I'm not an engraver. I don’t think Indians would be that concerned. But I do think your point is well-taken, to integrate the stars with the feathers would be quite nice. But again, I think our chairperson ruled. We have to hear what she has to say and abide by it. Thank you. MR. TUCKER: MS. WASTWEET: MR. TUCKER: MS. WASTWEET: Thanks. Is that all you have, Dennis? Yes. Thank you. All right. Thank you, Dennis. I'm going to go to Mary next. MS. LANNIN: In regard to 4A, I have no problem with the stars on top of the feathers. To me, rather than showing dominance, it's the underlying strength of Indians in the military. So we leave the stars the way they are and it's a nice, clean design. We have the circle. It's great. When Ron comes back, I would like someone to speak about design number nine, which apparently was their favorite. Are we going to be able to pull off all those layers and textures at the same time? this design very much. I really like But the simplicity of 4A I think is pulling me in that particular direction. And that's all I have to say. MS. WASTWEET: I can speak to that a little bit -Ms. LANNIN: MS. WASTWEET: Okay. Good. -- from the artistic sculptural standpoint on design nine, right, is it? As far as the layering, I think that's no problem for this scale. With the flag behind the soldier, because it has so much texture, considering the finish of the dollar coin and the size and the shallowness, it would get rather busy. So I would suggest that the Mint smooth the flag considerably, which is more of a texture change, not so much of the artistic change. The lines would all stay in the same place. But it would help to define the soldier with the flag much more faded behind him. And I think that's a quite easy fix and we don’t have to throw the design out just because the textures aren't working. MS. LANNIN: All right. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you. Jeanne, can you go next? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you. intrigued with number one, obverse one. an interesting concept. I was very I think it's I think it would -- it joins - - it joins the past and the present. And I would like to see this produced because it is innovative. It's very different. However, I do agree with Herman and Mary with number 4A. It is simple. It's direct. But I think number one gives us a little bit more of imagination. And for the reverse -MR. JANSEN: MR. MORAN: There isn't a reverse. There is no reverse. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Oh. That is the reverse. other. Sorry. So for me, it's either one or the Thank you. MS. WASTWEET: Jeanne. Thank you, Jeanne. Thank you, Erik, will you go next? MR. JANSEN: I'm going to focus on design number one and design number four. I thought design number one was just incredibly clever. However, as I worked with it visually, I just wanted more contrast. I wanted to be hit harder with this coin because reduced to the size of the brass palate here, I'm afraid that it's just going to look like a portrait. And we have a two-headed coin then, blah, blah, blah. So I began to ask myself how I could get more contrast, hence my question of Ron early on to add some background to change the negative space on the left and even potentially put the one side on positive relief and the other side in negative relief. Now, I don’t -- that's not quite the same as incused. But we do know the history of the Indian golds, which were the only incused coin every produced. I may be getting too numismatically geeky here, but -MS. LANNIN: You said it. MR. JANSEN: But to the extent that the committee members like design number one, I don’t think 1A works as well. I think it's very busy. But if one would become our preference, I would recommend we explore those kind of recommendations in a modifying motion. Otherwise, I'm going to lean heavily into 4A. Now, did we not have a similar kind of feather motif when we did a prior Native American coin? I think it was the -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. JANSEN: Astronauts. It was the astronauts. Thank you very much. MR. TUCKER: The space, yeah. MR. JANSEN: Yeah. choosing in that design? Now, what did we end up Do we have some confusion here? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. JANSEN: We did have a -- Did we not have a feather and stars and planets, I think? Do we have confusion on the issue? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: No, because this is a dollar. MR. JANSEN: No, I understand. MR. VASQUEZ: I understand. The design for the space coin does not use the feather motif. MR. JANSEN: We went on a different -- MR. VASQUEZ: MR. JANSEN: Correct. Okay. So it becomes a nonissue. Okay. I’m going to go with 4A as my other thought here. I liked three. But I think given the need for a circle to coordinate with what Herman called out and to respect the size of the palate here, the feather and the stars just works powerfully. I would question whether the design is too text busy when we reduce it to that size. And I'd invite the committee to kind of think about that, not that I have a recommendation as to how to shorten the text. But the text might need some issues. Design number nine, I think in the proof version of this, would just become a frosty blob. that concerns me quite a lot. MS. WASTWEET: MR. URAM: And Thank you. Thank you, Erik. Tom, please? Thank you, Madam Chair. Actually, when I looked back on the whole series of the Sacagawea, continuing on with the history of what the series is about, we actually used the feathers in 2016 by themselves with the helmet on top. And so, therefore, I leaned away from that for that specific reason, although I like them, Herman, and I understand that we've used it. So if we want to continue on with an additional aspect of their role in the history, I was leaning more towards the creativity of number one. I agree 1A was too much. And But I thought number one would do very well. And I also thought that number two, with the looking back and looking forward, had some options and possibilities. And also, I did like number nine. And I think that it would be -- you know, we've run into frosting problems before and continue to. And we always bring that up. But it's possible on that planchet that they would be able to -- being that it's gold, that they would be able to create the lines that are needed besides the planchet and with them being more aware. But if it's the stakeholders' choice, I really like the creativity of number one. super. I thought it was But I have no problem supporting number nine as the top choice. And once again, the only reason why I would not go with the feathers is because it's been used and it was used very specifically in 2016 as the main element of that coin. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. WASTWEET: MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Mary has a comment. I'd like to make a -- I'd like to make a comment about the use of the feather. Substitute the word feather for United States flag and say, oh, we've already used the flag twice. Okay. That is their symbol and that's really important to them. And this is a Native American dollar. problem at all with the feathers. MR. URAM: I have no So -- I'm just looking at it as the whole series. MS. LANNIN: Right. do we have on our coins. But again, how many flags It's sort of -- to me, it's sort of the same thing. So it's meaningful to them and it has the bonus of having the circle, which is going to match the monument that is being created. So that's my dollars' worth of information. MS. WASTWEET: Good comments on both sides. To you, Robert. MR. HOGE: designs. Thank you, Heidi. I like these Number one, though, I have a problem with. When I first saw it, I thought that's a funny looking outfit. I don’t think this would work when it's the size of a coin, having the combined antique and modern representations. a tomahawk. And also, the tomahawk is not really It's some kind of modern tool and yet it's on the side of the 18th century type of warrior. So anyway, I'm really not in favor of that one. Number four and 4A with the eagle feathers, these are attractive and I understand the symbolism. I don’t really like the combination though of the completely graphic stars and the extremely detailed exacting scientific representation of the feathers in combination with this stippled background I don’t think works all that well with these. I like the idea of having a circle. some attractive design here. We have I think number eight -- or number nine, excuse me, while an attractive and fairly powerful thing, is really just too busy and I don’t like all these different layers. I think on a coin it's going to look like a lot of mush. Something that nobody has mentioned is the images from number 10 and number 10A. like number 10A. I particularly I like the idea that we see warriors that are clearly represented as being centuries apart in time. I don’t think that the words "NATIVE AMERICAN TRADITION OF SERVICE" are really necessary here because this is, after all, the Native American series of dollars. You could simply say "TRADITION OF SERVICE" and this gets the point across very well. I like the fact that they're both in the gesturing of looking. When you think of Indian warriors, you think of scouts and guides. I was a member of the Indian Guides when I was a little boy. And this is -- this is kind of fun. This is an extremely accurate representation of the good use of negative space. We look at the weapons, the modern day gun and the 18th century rifle. These are beautifully executed. We could add eagle feathers into this if we wanted to, perhaps in the headdress of the 18th century warrior. Perhaps the modern trooper could have an eagle feather protruding from his helmet. I mean, there are some real possibilities here that I would like to see included. So this is really my favorite design of all of these, number 10A. Thank you. MS. WASTWEET: MR. MORAN: Thank you, Robert. Mike? I'm bringing up the rear. going to muddy it, not much though. I'm Like Robert, I liked number 10 and 10A originally and was undecided between the two. I went over to the Museum of the Native American Indian -- watch that name -- yesterday. And there's a beautiful headdress there, just eagle feathers all the way down to the floor on display. And that was the first time I was really truly aware that these feathers were awarded for not just acts of bravery but also acts of wisdom and kindness. And they are very integral to the culture of the Native Americans. I chewed on that last night and basically changed my opinion. I am with Mary. can get too many feathers. I don’t think we And I doesn't bother me that we choose number four or 4A. I think we should choose 4A because of the circle. I would make one suggestion in terms of what is supreme. We were talking about intertwining the feathers and the stars. Just make the circle itself supreme and let the feathers and the stars be underneath it. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, Mike. comments all around the table. Great I agree with Jeanne. Number one is extremely creative and innovative and ire ally love it. I think it would be great on a larger palate. On the very shallow and small one dollar coin, I think it'll be hard to distinguish in the hand what's going on. the artist. But I definitely want to call out kudos to I think this was a great attempt. On four and 4A, again, they're so similar. I want to caution you to not vote on them separately, but vote on them as if they are one design, although it sounds like we're leaning toward 4A for the reasons previously stated. Design nine, as I stated before, if we smooth out that flag, this could possibly work. But with all that texture in there, it absolutely would just become a very confusing mess on the coin. changed in that way. So it'd have to be But it's a really good design. I like it. And then, I confess that I hadn't really looked at 10A before, Robert, you really got me looking at this again. And I do like this. And I really love the way the A is between the feet. The problem here is when you depict a certain tribe, again, when you try to include one, you inevitably exclude others. Herman, what's your opinion about using such a specific dress? DR. VIOLA: correct. Well, I have to say you're When you make it too specific -- just like we were talking about having a horse in the picture. Well, how many Indians were really horse people? So that's why the feathers are kind of generic and they all can identify with it whereas, you know, in the American Revolution, where this is going back, there were tribes all along the East Coast. And they weren't like the Oneidas. They were Cherokees or people all the way down and they all dressed differently. So it's very tough when you -- MS. WASTWEET: DR. VIOLA: A very touchy subject. Yeah. MS. WASTWEET: Okay. Thank you. comments before we go to our voting page? MR. HOGE: One other point. Any other Robert? I don’t know that many people would be able to recognize the 18th century Indian as being a specific tribe or not. Herman probably could and maybe there's some Natives of the different tribes who might. But I think it just looks like an 18th century Indian whereas the fellow on the right, is he of a particular tribe? I don’t know. DR. VIOLA: MR. HOGE: No, he's got -He's got a military crewcut. But that could be interpreted as being sort of a modern day Mohawk or something. DR. VIOLA: I wouldn't even think he was an Indian myself. MR. HOGE: Well, you don’t necessarily have to think of that about the fellow on the left either. Just because his head is shaved and he has a little -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. HOGE: Yeah. Right. But anyhow, I mean, I do especially like this design. MS. WASTWEET: All right. Thank you. Let's vote and take a brief recess while we calculate the -MS. STAFFORD: Madam Chair? MS. WASTWEET: Yes? MS. STAFFORD: In the interest of time, I could begin reading the -- introducing the designs for the other portfolio while we're calculating. MR. WEINMAN: MS. WASTWEET: We can do that. We have five minutes before we're supposed to start the next one. for five minutes. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. So let's recess (Whereupon, the foregoing went off the record at 1:21 p.m., and went back on the record at 1:23 p.m.) MR. MORAN: Yeah, and April? MS. STAFFORD: MR. MORAN: Yes, sir? Can we -- can we convey to the artist that that eagle's head was really good? I like it better than the one that we chose for the gold coin. (Whereupon, the foregoing went off the record at 1:24 p.m., and went back on the record at 1:28 p.m.) MR. WEINMAN: MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: received 11 votes. Okay. Ready? Ready. Okay. Design number one Design 1A, zero. Design two received seven votes. 2A received five. Design three received three votes. Design four received 12 votes. Design 4A received 17 votes. Hold on. number. zero. Sorry, which is tied for the highest Design five received three. 6A, one. Seven, zero. votes -- I'm sorry, zero votes. 5A, zero. Six, Design eight, seven Design nine received seven votes. Design -- MS. LANNIN: Seven? MR. WEINMAN: votes. Design nine received seven Design 10 received four votes. received 17 votes. 10A also Eleven received zero votes. So you are tied between 10A -MS. LANNIN: Robert, you were so eloquent. MR. WEINMAN: MS. WASTWEET: MR. JANSEN: -- and 4A. Thank you, Greg. So we'll -- The A's have it. MS. WASTWEET: -- do a tiebreaker vote. Does anyone want to make a case for one or the other? Robert? MR. HOGE: I'd like to make a suggestion. Everyone knows I liked number 10A. But this one has such a great deal of nice negative space. I'm wondering if you couldn't have a sacred circle perhaps added as a sort of a border around the entire thing, just within the rim and that would add another element that would be nice, addressing Herman's discussion. MR. JANSEN: I'm fearful that a sacred circle destroys their look to the horizon. MS. LANNIN: MR. HOGE: I agree with Erik. I wouldn't say it destroys it. It gives them something to look at. MR. JANSEN: DR. VIOLA: It restrains it. What about putting the eagle's feather on the helmet, as someone -- as Heidi mentioned? MR. JANSEN: Why not? MR. WEINMAN: Make a motion. MS. WASTWEET: We could make a motion for that. MR. MORAN: Herman, they're waiting for you to make a motion. DR. VIOLA: I make a motion we add an eagle feather to the helmet. MR. MORAN: Second. MR. WEINMAN: MR. JANSEN: MS. WASTWEET: And recommend this design? And -Yeah, if -- do you want to add to your motion that we make this our recommendation? MR. JANSEN: -- you like it better than 4A? DR. VIOLA: I think so. MR. JANSEN: Okay. MS. WASTWEET: Herman's leaning away from your original? DR. VIOLA: Well, because once I saw the coin that's in that series for 2016 -MS. WASTWEET: DR. VIOLA: You thought it was too similar? It was really very similar. MS. WASTWEET: Okay. Well, you carry a little weight in this department, so -DR. VIOLA: But I mean, I don’t -- you know, my own preference would be 4A. But the idea of putting the eagle feather on the helmet, which is what a lot of Indians do today -MS. LANNIN: DR. VIOLA: On the outside of the helmet? On the outside. MS. LANNIN: Okay. MR. JANSEN: It'd be perfect. MS. WASTWEET: It's going to be really tiny, considering the size of the -DR. VIOLA: I know. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: That's the problem. It would be very tiny. MS. WASTWEET: Very, very tiny. It's not going to show up. MR. JANSEN: It's kind of like a Native American privy. MS. LANNIN: MR. HOGE: MS. LANNIN: Yeah. Yeah, it's a personal thing. And so, that's the curved top of the helmet or it's not upside-down, is it? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: No, that's the curved top. MR. JANSEN: DR. VIOLA: That's funny. You always have to tie it to the side so it's kind of off -MS. LANNIN: So if the feather is hanging from that strap, is that what you're suggesting? DR. VIOLA: Yeah, something like that. It would not be sticking straight up. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: It wouldn't be sticking -MS. LANNIN: It wouldn't be sticking straight up? DR. VIOLA: No. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: It wouldn't be sticking -- it would be hanging -MS. LANNIN: Oh, see, I would have thought it was like a -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: It would be hanging. So that -DR. VIOLA: Like they do it on their hair. They have it hanging down. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. JANSEN: Yeah, hanging down. So it hands below the virtual horizon line here. DR. VIOLA: Yeah, kind of. it touching the ground. But you don’t want That's another bad no-no. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: But if it's -- if it's an eagle feather, this is going to be a large feather. So it's not going to be too unidentifiable, right? MS. WASTWEET: It's still going to be really tiny. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: It will still be small. But I would think it would be the size of his boot. MR. JANSEN: Yeah. diameter of the helmet or so. It's going to be the DR. VIOLA: Or maybe I just ought to go back to 4A. (Laughter.) MS. WASTWEET: MR. TUCKER: You know, when I -Well, it's 10A -- MS. WASTWEET: MR. TUCKER: When I -Could it be hanging from his pack or someplace else other than the helmet? DR. VIOLA: Definitely. MS. WASTWEET: There's a lot of variables there when we start adding on it. When I think about holding these dollar coins in my hand and what shows up and what doesn't, I really lean towards the bold, simple designs. And I still come back to, you know, the fact that we are representing here a very specific costume of a very specific tribe. And personally I still lean towards the two feathers with the stars. So there's -- do you want to hold your motion or -DR. VIOLA: No, I'll pull -- I'll pull my motion. MR. WEINMAN: Again, there is no obligation to make -- you can -- to have a distinct -- your vote speaks for itself, if that's how you want to leave it. You could -- yeah. MS. WASTWEET: So we don’t have to break our tie if we don’t want to, I'm told. MR. JANSEN: Erik? I'll make a motion to recommend we adopt 4A. MS. LANNIN: I'll second. MS. WASTWEET: second. faces. Okay. We have a motion and a Any discussion of that? Let's vote on the motion. I'm seeing quiet All in favor, aye. (Chorus of ayes.) MR. TUCKER: Aye. MS. WASTWEET: Opposed? Two opposed. Motion carries to recommend design 4A as our official recommendation. MR. URAM: We held our ground. We lost the war, but we held our ground. (Cross-talk.) MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. JANSEN: misery. Can I -- can we -- -- had to put you out of your (Cross-talk.) MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: -- recommend that we do something to the background -(Cross-talk.) MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: -- excuse me? Hello? Yes, I have -- I have a Excuse me. I would like to recommend that we suggest to Ron that the background of 4A be frosted or whatever he wants to do so it would represent the background of four. MS. WASTWEET: My opinion is that I would rather the texture of the feathers carry the attention because if we texture the background, it's going to blend more with the -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Correct. But it would also make these stars pop more than just having the background the same, unless -- I'm thinking it has to do something with the background behind the stars. And I agree. prominent. I agree the feathers should be But I think -- I think if it's done softly enough, it would give it some life, a little more life. MS. WASTWEET: I think the stars will pop enough just because they're bold. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: raised. They're going to be They're going to be raised. MS. WASTWEET: And solid. And I'm more concerned with losing the feathers than the stars. MR. JANSEN: Right. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Okay. Well, that's my suggestion. MS. WASTWEET: move on? Okay. Any other comments before we April, to you, please, for the Native American 2022. 2022: ELY S. PARKER MS. STAFFORD: Ely Samuel Parker, born as Ha- sa-no-an-da of the Tonawanda Seneca Nation, mastered English as a youth, and served as a translator and scribe for tribal chiefs in their struggle to maintain their reservations. In appreciation, the Iroquois bestowed upon Parker their greatest honor, naming him Grand Sachem of the Six Nations and according him the sacred name of Donehogawa, Keeper of the Western Door of the Iroquois Longhouse. In 1853, at the age of 25, the governor of New York formally recognized Parker as the chief representative of the Iroquois confederacy, and the state government treated him as the head chief in any dealings with the confederacy. Parker studied law but was not allowed to take the bar exam because he was not a United States citizen at that time. Instead, Parker trained as a civil engineer, and while on assignment in Illinois, met a store clerk named Ulysses S. Grant and started a fateful friendship. Parker later served as General Ulysses S. Grant’s military secretary during the Civil War. In that capacity, Parker drafted the Articles of Surrender when Robert E. Lee met with Grant at Appomattox, Virginia, on the morning of April 9, 1865. Lee, recognizing Parker as an American Indian, extended his hand with the comment, “I am glad to see one real American here.” Parker accepted Lee’s hand, responding, “We are all Americans.” All of the following candidate designs feature a depiction of Ely Parker, inscriptions of his English name or a representation of his signature and the Indian name given to him at birth, Ha-sa-no-an-da. The designs also carry the required inscriptions “UNITED STATES OF AMERICA” and “$1.” Beginning with design one and 1A, they feature Parker with two quill pens, symbolic of his life and work in two worlds, as a Seneca and a resident of the United States. 1A, seen here, includes the additional inscription “TONAWANDA SENECA,” Parker’s tribe. This design is the preferred design of the Tonawanda Seneca Nation's Council of Chiefs, who requested that "TONAWANDA SENECA" be added as an inscription. Designs two through six depict Parker with a quill pen and book, symbolic of his mastery of English and his graceful penmanship. In three, seen here, the two pillars represent Parker’s life in two worlds, running parallel to one another. The columns also give the effect of a doorframe; and, with his raised hand pointing to the west, references the title “Donehogawa,” meaning “Keeper of the Western Door of the Iroquois Longhouse.” You can also see designs four, five and six. The National Congress of American Indians recommended six as the closest likeness to Parker. They felt that his military uniform added context to Parker's importance in U.S. history, but requested that further context be given, particularly the inscriptions "SENECA ATTORNEY," "ENGINEER BREVET BRIGADIER GENERAL," which you'll see on design eight. Design seven depicts Parker seated at a table with pen in hand and a document in front of him. Design eight and nine focus on Parker, while in eight the wall behind him provides a backdrop to highlight his varied career, and described in the additional inscriptions). In addition to serving as a Seneca attorney, Parker worked for the U.S. as a civil engineer, during which time he met Grant. At the end of the Civil War, Parker was granted the title of brevet brigadier general, an honorary promotion from his rank of lieutenant colonel. Eight was edited again to include the use of Parker's military uniform, which when accompanied by the inscriptions "SENECA ATTORNEY," "ENGINEER," and "BREVET BRIGADIER GENERAL" provides context to Parker's importance to U.S. history, as recommended by our friends at the National Congress of the American Indian. Here is design nine as well. Designs 10 and 1A feature the McLean House in Appomattox, Virginia, the building where the Articles of Surrender were signed on April 9, 1865, ending the U.S. Civil War. Both designs include the inscription “TONAWANDA SENECA,” while 10A, seen here, adds reference to his honorary rank of brevet brigadier general in the U.S. Army. Eleven features Parker with a wolf, representative of his clan in the Tonawanda Seneca Nation. Twelve through 14A depict Parker with a book at hand, symbolic of his education and mastery of English. In 13, seen here, and 14, here, a broken rainbow symbolizes a dream Parker’s mother had before he was born. The broken rainbow she saw stretching across the landscape was interpreted as a vision of her future son’s life in two worlds. Designs 13, 14 and 14A include the additional inscription “TONAWANDA SENECA.” That concludes the portfolio, Madam Chair. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, April. Herman, would you start us off again? DR. VIOLA: Okay. can get this to work again. me? Okay. Thank you. Okay. Let's see if I Everybody can hear This is another very important coin. But he really has -- Ely Parker has a great role in American history. First of all, he was the highest ranking Indian in the Union Army. And what most people don’t realize, there were thousands and thousands of Indians who fought on both sides. And while we give Lee credit for surrendering, he was not the last Confederate general to surrender. It was a Cherokee chief, you know, Stand Watie, who surrendered. So those Indians were fighting, you know, quite hard for both causes. The reasons the Indians fought so hard for the Confederacy, the Confederacy said if they won, Indians would be represented in the Congress. And so, they really were fighting for citizenship and a lot of other things. Parker, ironically, had the best handwriting on Grant's staff. Grant said as much. And that's why he was asked to draft the surrender documents. And the other real interesting story is when Lee came in, you know, Grant wanted him to meet his staff, his officers. And when Parker went forward, Grant -- Lee at first thought that he was kind of being needled a bit because here was -- Parker was quite dark. And thought, well, look at Grant giving be a black man to -- and then he said, no, this is, you know, Ely Parker. Oh, an Indian. And that's when Lee said, oh, I'm so glad to see a real American here. And then, you know, Parker said, sir, in this room, we're all Americans. So, but the other thing, of course, is that Parker then went on to be the first Indian to run the Bureau of Indian Affairs. distinguished career. as he did in the Army. So he's really had a very He didn't do as well at that job But he has an important role in Indian history and American history. But picking the design is going to be a challenge. You know, I personally like the one with the crossed feathers at the top because he really did work in two worlds. fluent. And he was such -- he was so But there's some challenges about having a two-headed coin. And so, I understand number eight is the one that a lot of people prefer. I don’t think it looks as good as some of the others as a portrait. But, you know, I'd say I'm willing to listen to the rest of the group as to what they want. know, he's also the keeper of the western door. You And you may not understand why that title was given. The Senecas, the confederacy had five tribes. And the Senecas were the furthest west of the tribes in the confederacy. So they were the protectors of the other people in the confederacy. So there's a lot of symbolism that goes into all of this. So I'm looking forward to what my colleagues say as far as which one they think would make the better medal. MR. WEINMAN: Thank you. Can I make a comment just about the two-headed coin issue? That -- just so you know, the standard in the Native American dollar legislation is different from the standard from the ATB language and previously the 50Q language before that which was more specific about no head-and-shoulders bust. The requirement here -- and I'm quickly looking for the passage. Here it is: "In the case of a design depicting the contributions of an individual Native American to the development of the United States or the history of the United States, shall not depict the individual in a size such that the coin could be considered a twoheaded coin." So it's an interesting comment. Because of that type of language, we've given a lot of leeway from a legal standpoint in these designs. There were certain designs that in fact we did modify to make sure that they had other elements involved so they couldn't obviously be considered two-headed coin. So all of these designs meet the very, very low bar, legal standard. But it's really up to the CCAC and the other stakeholders to make the determination whether or not it is a good design for that purpose. So if you feel strongly that this looks like a two-headed coin, then that's relevant. But it doesn't meet the legal standard. MS. WASTWEET: off. At least know that. Thank you. That helps start us And I agree that there's a legal precedent and then there's -- as the saying goes, I know it when I see it. So that can be our guide to a certain degree, that if it -- I think if it feels like too close to a two-headed coin, then it's better to steer in another direction. So Jeanne, can you go next? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you, Madam Chair. This is a -- as we all have noted, this is a relatively difficult choice because we do have to represent Parker. And I think it's a good idea to recognize this accomplishments in number eight. don’t like that design at all. But to be honest, I It would be great if we could somehow put these accomplishments on another coin. I mean, it just isn't to me very inspiring. I like number four because the portrait is so intense. And I like number three for what it represents, to protect the western door. And if somehow if we could add a little more information to that piece, it's still not one that I am loving and thinking it's great. But when I go through some of these others, I like number 13 and 14 with the broken rainbow. This might have just too much information in terms of the design and maybe Parker is a little too small on number 13. So I'm really wanting to listen to my colleagues to hear their comments on these. difficult for me. Thank you. MS. WASTWEET: to jump in next. This is Thank you. I think I'm going I'm going to start out by saying one and two, I do think that the head is too large compared to the obverse. It's competing, in my opinion. I do like design number three, although I don’t think it's my favorite. Sometimes I just have to jump to just the most beautiful design and that leads me to six. just drawn really well. all the information. book. This is It's a great portrait. He's got the pen. It has He's got the I love the way the text is thoughtfully incorporated as part of the composition. As we heard, one of our liaisons felt it was the best likeness of him. And I think it's got a lot going on, but it's still size-appropriate. So I'm really leaning towards this one. As far as design number eight -- and this also applies to 10 and 10A and 13 -- I'm never going to put my vote towards a design that runs text over the topography of the image, especially on a small and shallow palate. As a sculptor, this grates on me the wrong way. It never looks good except on paper, in my opinion. I'm going to end my comments there and go to Mary, please. MS. LANNIN: This is really tough. I respect what Heidi said about having the text running over someone or something. But number eight was the only one that kind of listed more than one accomplishment for him. So I kind of gravitated toward that one. If there's a way to fade out part of his uniform, you know, maybe eliminate like the last button or something like that and have everything just sort of fade off, to have those titles, I think that that's fairly important. Number six, which was Heidi's favorite, why is he itching his shoulder with a pen? MR. JANSEN: Because he itches. MS. LANNIN: I just -- it may -- that may very well be true. But it's this funny contortion that his other shoulder is forward. I like the arc of his birth name against the United States of America. But I just find that to be terribly contorted. 1A, which is their preferred one, his beard looks like icicles growing into the uniform. don’t you think? Really, I mean, it's very hard to discern that he's actually bearded, where it's really pretty obvious in many of the other things. I'm going to have a hard time picking one. Number three, I felt like he was kind of caged in by those two lines. Although graphically, I think that that is the most beautiful. So those are my comments. I'm really kind of confused about this portfolio. MS. WASTWEET: Next, I'd like to go to Dennis on the phone, please. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. Ely Parker is a hero of mine. I grew up in central and western New York, the Syracuse and Rochester area. And Rochester is connected to Ely Parker, of course. We've talked a lot about his later life and how he served different roles with the United States government. But really, the recognition of Ely Parker's talents and strengths as a communicator went back to his childhood. In the late 1830s/early 1840s, there were some treaties that would have sent the Tonawanda Senecas to Kansas. And the elders of the tribe were planning different state and federal appeals. And at this point, Ely Parker, who was just a boy, had a run-in with some English soldiers, who made fun of his English and his broken form of communicating with them. again. So he vowed that he would never be mocked He went to Yates Academy and he applied himself. And he showed such promise and such a spark that the elders of the Senecas appointed him as their translator, scribe and interpreter for correspondence and meetings with the federal -- with the U.S. government. He was 14 years old. He was 14 years old. So I see Ely Parker as a communicator. a writer. You know, obviously this was important for his career as a lawyer. engineer. He was We pointed out that he was an He was a military officer. Everything about him was about the written word, the beautiful penmanship, the communication. So to me, it's important to have something in this coin design that illustrates that concept of him being a communicator. And traditionally, in Greco- Roman -- you know, if we were looking at this as a traditional coin, we would have a lamp of knowledge or a quilled pen or, you know, an ink well, you know, something that communicates writing and knowledge in that way. I was first drawn to 1A for the reason that one of our liaisons was drawn to it. this was a modification of design one. And I understand But the fact that it includes the tribal name of the Tonawanda Seneca, that stood out to me. And it has the feathers. But the more I thought about it, the feathers really -- they don't say quilled pen to me necessarily here. They could be -- they could be representative of many different things. So I like 1A. But I am more drawn to the designs that show him with a book, which denotes knowledge. You know, holding a quill that is obviously a pen. I agree with Mary. Number six is kind of a strange contortion of his figure. I have never seen anyone hold themselves that way, sitting with a book in their lap and then holding a pen. Number eight, I appreciate how people are drawn to the fact that it includes some of his accomplishments. attorney. But these -- you know, yes, he was an He was an engineer. He was a military officer. But there was -- those are just titles that came later. Those are things that sprang from his brilliance as a communicator that came from his childhood. By the way, about 20 years ago, I worked on the website for a PBS production called Warrior in Two Worlds. If you go to PBS.org, check this out. It's a wonderful introduction and overview of the life of Ely Parker. I like the symbolism of the rainbow. broken rainbow was his mother's dream. The She had a vision that he would be a warrior in two worlds. That was the broken rainbow. I don’t know if it really works well on a coin. I think it makes a fine drawing. But, you know, the use of shading might be problematic. Ultimately I am drawn to 14A because -- well, for several reasons. He's holding a book, which is important to his role as a communicator. It includes the tribal name of the Tonawanda Seneca. I like the way his signature is shown graphically, as if he'd written his name. And it includes his triable name of Hasanoanda. The portrait -- you know, some of the other portraits might be better depictions of him. that's not a bad portrait. But Another weakness might be that it doesn't -- it doesn't play up his military background. I don’t think that's a horrible weakness of this design. I think there's more to him than that. So my weight will be given to 14A. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, Dennis. Mike, can I get you to go next? MR. MORAN: Thank you, Madam Chair. I had the same problem I think everybody has had with one and 1A, that it becomes in essence a two-headed coin, whether it's legally that or not. And as a result, I backed off those. But once I did that, I stepped off into what I called a quagmire because all of these really are variations of the portrait of him. And they each have their strengths and their weaknesses. I finally settled on one of them and that was one that's not been mentioned. glasses are in my coat. too large. That is number 11. My The wolf is a little outsized, But you see here a man of accomplishments. You see here a leader. He was both. And you see the two sides of him as well, the white man side and the Native American side with the wolf. I liked it for the composition and I suspect I'll probably be the only one that does on that one. It's just my personal preference. MS. WASTWEET: And that's what's important. Robert? MR. HOGE: Thank you, Heidi. My difficulty with these was which is really the likeness of Ely Parker. It looks like each one -- or each grouping shows him with a different portrait. And I think, April, you said that number six was considered the best likeness, which is almost the same as number five. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: From one particular group. MR. MORAN: MR. HOGE: Right. Same -Did anyone else have a preference of which portrait looked most accurate? This is supposed to be a representation of the man. So I think having an accurate likeness is probably an important feature of this. There are historical photographs of him in existence. Apart from that, these designs in general are all pretty nice. I think in terms of a powerful artistic representation, some of them do stand out more than others. I like number four, for instance. pen there. You see the You see him in what appears to be a military uniform. Number 12, this could be perhaps an image of Frederick Douglass with a different costume. But number six, I don’t particularly care for the post or the gesture. But if that's the best likeness, that might be one that would draw attention. Number five, which is very similar, might be better. We can see something of the book -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: that. Yeah. I agree with Yeah. MR. HOGE: pen there. -- and he's holding a funny looking Number one and number 1A, these could be eagle feathers. We don’t know if they're goose feathers or whatever. And since we've already gone two times now using two eagle feathers, we could go two more feathers for a third time, right? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: But these are goose feathers. MR. HOGE: right. size. But you know, they look about the same, same So yeah -MR. URAM: credit. Well, these are goose feathers, She gives coin collectors too much MR. HOGE: credit. Yeah, she gives them too much Not all the time -MR. URAM: They're not going to know the difference. MR. HOGE: It's two feathers. And a quilled pen probably didn't have all the plumage anyway, in it being handled. shorter. I think most of them were probably So this is a difficulty. And I don’t really have a terribly strong preference. I don’t like truncated figures particularly. I'm with Heidi in not liking the overlapping lettering on number 10 and 10A with the uniform, the field and the house. But in general, we have some attractive representations here. I'd just want the one that'd be most accurate and most appropriate. MS. WASTWEET: Well, I quickly -- while you were talking, I Googled some photographs of him. must say he looks different in the different photographs. MR. HOGE: He does? MS. WASTWEET: So as he ages, different periods of his life, different angles of the And I photograph, he does look often different. So it's hard to say. MR. HOGE: His hairline is different. His ear is different and his cheek. MS. WASTWEET: Yeah. So it's hard to say that there's one that is a definitive look of him. MR. HOGE: So maybe that doesn't matter. MR. TUCKER: MS. WASTWEET: MR. TUCKER: Yes, Heidi? Yes? I would just add that I don’t think any of these portraits are bad portraits. You know, they might be different. But as you pointed out, you know, if we just go by the photographic record, there are lots of different ways of looking at Ely Parker as he aged and, you know, depending on how he was looking, whether he was looking at you or not looking at you. So I don’t think any of these are bad portraits. MS. LANNIN: Dennis, I agree with you. Googled what Ely S. Parker looked like. I also And the portrait that I'm looking at, which is very similar to number five and number six, you know, I don’t like the contorted one in number six. But number five is a very nice coin. The photograph that I'm looking at that the artist possibly used for inspiration was taken by Mathew Brady, the famed Civil War photographer. So it may be more familiar and more noted because of Brady's body of work as well. So that would be a very good representation. MS. WASTWEET: MR. URAM: Tom, to you. Thank you, Madam Chair. Actually we don’t have to worry about it being a two-headed coin because it's three-headed anyhow. So we don’t have to worry about that. I do like -- I do like the idea of the signature. I think that's something that draws you to wonder who this person is. I think that it would be nice had one or 1A had one feather and then maybe a book instead of two feathers, had it had a book instead of two feathers and scaled down a little bit. But if we were going to go with five, I'd like to see the name in script or number eight with the name in script. So if we put that all together, I think we end up at 14A, which gives -- you know, it has the book. It has a lot of the elements that would make it not looking like the Douglass of number 12 or some other coin that we've already done. And it has the script for his name to draw in and make it a little bit different. And we have a very small planchet here. It's not like we have a lot to go with. So I'm going to lean more towards 14A, even though I really do like one. It's just that for whatever reason, those two feathers bother me as far as having them two -- having two of them there. It just doesn’t work. But I could support five as well. eight are possibilities. Five and I think number eight, if you did go with that and you had his name in script there, it would be balanced out real well also instead of the italics. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, Tom. Erik, you're going to wrap us up. MR. JANSEN: All right. So I'm either going to blow this open or I'm going to close it and you can decide. What I'm seeing is a bunch of us voting ones and twos and I'm worried that we're not going to get a solution here. So what I'm hearing really is what we would love to have seen is something other than a portraiture, but rather something that focused on this man as a communicative polymath, with all the things he did either as an individual or for the country. But I don’t see that here anywhere. The closest is see to that is to pull a signature out because it's such an unusual feature to put on a coin. And it usually speaks to -- it speaks to something beyond, obviously the written word being featured in a signature. So I'm either going to ask everybody to close on 14A, put this process to an end and give enough weight to 14A that we can move forward. It has his signature. It has a book. It's not a two-headed coin. DR. VIOLA: MR. JANSEN: least pleasant. Yeah. I agree. And I think the layout is at Or alternatively, and I'm not going to make a motion, if someone feels so dissatisfied right now, make a motion and ask for new artwork focusing on the polymath nature here and, in any case, move on to the next item today. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, Erik. the first comments on 14A. I'll throw in I would -- as a sculptor, I would have trouble with the foreshortening of that hand. It's one of those things that looks great in the drawing, not so much on a coin. And I don’t know why the book is so very tiny. And I do like those that are a little more military looking. And I've heard several opinions of liking the signature. But I feel the signature is less legible, especially on a small palate. And considering Mary's dislike of the gesture in six, I also like five, which is very similar. But it has a nice negative space around the quill pen, which makes it more stand out -MS. LANNIN: MS. WASTWEET: And a big book. And a nice, large book and a good likeness and the legible name. And also, some of these designs I feel look like medal designs rather than coin designs. But I feel like this one has that coin feel to it. So does anyone have any other comments before we go to vote? MR. TUCKER: I would make another comment, if I could. MS. WASTWEET: MR. TUCKER: Sure, Dennis. Just to go to bat for 14A, Ely Parker was probably one of the best engineers in the United States before he went on to his greater federal career. He was recognized for this. He was instrumental in the construction of the Erie Canal. So I don’t think it's -- I don’t think it's a problem not showing him in military garb. uniform looks great. The military But, you know, this was a man who was an attorney, an engineer. And just to reinforce that idea of the importance and significance of his signature, not every Native American at this time period could sign their name. Not every American in the early 1800s could sign their name. Many would have to have signed with an X. This signature on this coin shows him as a man of intelligence, as an educated man. So to me, that's very significant. And yes, the book is small. But the book is there. And I think it has the other elements that I found to be significant. As I mentioned, it has the name of the Tonawanda Seneca, which is something that some of our liaisons preferred as well. So I think that 14A is a strong design. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, Dennis. So I thank everyone for getting us back on track time-wise. I'd like to take a 10-minute recess to tally our votes and then we'll come back. Thank you. (Whereupon, the foregoing went off the record at 2:09 p.m., and went back on the record at 2:20 p.m.) MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: We are back in session. Okay. We're back. While we wait for Mr. Jansen to come with coffee -- you might as well leave the door open. his hand. He'll be having coffee in The results are as follows. MS. STAFFORD: MR. WEINMAN: MS. STAFFORD: Hi, excellent. Coffee for you. Exactly. Oh no -- I thought you were just being nice. MR. WEINMAN: here. I was being very self-serving Number one, design one got three votes. 1A has seven votes. Design Design two has zero votes. three comes in with six votes. Design Design four has three votes. Design five is your top vote-getter with 21 votes. Design six has five. Design seven has five. Design eight has five. Design nine -- I'm sorry, design nine has one. Design 10 has zero votes. has three. vote. 10A has zero votes. Twelve has four votes. Fourteen has one vote. Eleven Thirteen has one And 14A has 18 votes, so a close second. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you. appears to be a clear winner. We have a -- what Do we have any follow-up motions or discussions on our choice of obverse five? MR. JANSEN: I might make a request that the feather be at least changed to an outline that's closer to an eagle feather. I don’t know how the rest of the committee feels about that. It just looks like a scraggly quill to me and I think there -MS. LANNIN: It looks like a leaf. MR. JANSEN: -- there is a metaphorical play here. MS. WASTWEET: I think that's -- I think that's an artistic interpretation of a -MR. JANSEN: I appreciate that. And I'm just trying to put that out there, that if that were to look more like an eagle feather, it might be a little metaphorically complex here. MS. WASTWEET: Did he write with an eagle feather or what -MS. STAFFORD: Oh, we have -- Jim, are you on the line? MR. JANSEN: Herman's not here to render an opinion. MS. STAFFORD: Herman -- okay. So -- MS. WASTWEET: I think it would have been a goose feather. MS. STAFFORD: It would be -- well, it would - - we would just want to check. MR. JANSEN: MS. STAFFORD: MR. JANSEN: Totally agree. To make sure that it wasn't -We've got to make sure it's not a contextual insult. MS. STAFFORD: Yes. MS. WASTWEET: So Herman's here. Herman, we have a question for you. DR. VIOLA: All right. MS. WASTWEET: Would this be an eagle feather or a goose feather? DR. VIOLA: It sure doesn't look like an eagle feather. MR. JANSEN: MR. URAM: No, it does not. But should it be? MR. JANSEN: Should it be? MS. WASTWEET: MR. JANSEN: Should it be? Could it be without insulting someone? DR. VIOLA: Well, it should not be an eagle feather in this context. MR. JANSEN: Okay. MS. WASTWEET: DR. VIOLA: Okay. And, I mean, unless you -- frankly, the Indians would not have it look so scruffy. I mean, it would be a beautifully -- MS. LANNIN: DR. VIOLA: A goose quill, yeah. -- designed and in perfect shape. I mean, that in no way is an Indian. But I would assume that that's an eagle feather. MR. JANSEN: So perhaps a less scruffy feather that is not rendered to be an eagle. MS. LANNIN: Goose feather. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: A goose quill. It needs to be -MR. JANSEN: MR. WEINMAN: MS. WASTWEET: All right. A good goose feather. So noted, on the record. So noted, and on the record. Let's move on to our next -- MR. TUCKER: MS. WASTWEET: MR. TUCKER: Madam Chair? I'm sorry -- Dennis? I just have one comment I'd like to make. MS. WASTWEET: MR. TUCKER: Sure. The typographical treatment of his name, Ely Parker, in design five, I'm trying to avoid design by committee. However, if that typographical treatment is not crucial to the design, could that be changed to his signature? MS. WASTWEET: MR. TUCKER: It could be. For all of the reasons that I laid out earlier, the symbolism that a signature has in representing a man of education. MR. JANSEN: I would agree with that. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I agree. I do too, yeah. MS. WASTWEET: MR. JANSEN: MS. WASTWEET: So Dennis -Yeah. -- you can either leave that as a committee comment or you can make a formal motion. Which would you like to do? MR. JANSEN: I would second a motion, Dennis. MR. TUCKER: I would make a motion that Ely Parker's name be transformed from a typographical treatment to a replication of his signature. MR. JANSEN: Is there an example you like in any of the other drawings? MR. TUCKER: better. I would say the bolder, the I have to admit I haven't studied his historical signature or autograph. So I don’t know if one is accurate and others aren't. that's on the record. But, you know, So we could -- we could find a good historical depiction of that. MS. WASTWEET: All right. Do we have a second? MR. JANSEN: What was the motion? MS. WASTWEET: The motion is to change the text of his name to a depiction of his signature. MR. JANSEN: Second here. MS. WASTWEET: Erik has seconded. Do we have any discussion? MS. LANNIN: Do you want to have the S in it? All of his signatures have the word -- have the initial S. MR. HOGE: Why don’t we leave that up to the Mint? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. JANSEN: I would assume so. I think there are enough examples in 10, 10A, 14A, for example, that it should be pretty straightforward to pick the art up. MS. LANNIN: Yeah. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: With an S, though. I think it needs it. MR. JANSEN: With the S, correct. That's the way he signed it. MS. WASTWEET: All right. All in favor of the motion? (Chorus of ayes.) MS. WASTWEET: motion carries. Okay. Opposed, all say nay. The If that's all of our discussion on -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: more little piece. If -- it's -- no, one As long as we're going to change that, is it possible to add the Tonawanda Seneca underneath that, as in 14A? MS. WASTWEET: I don’t think it will fit. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: fit? You don’t think it would Okay. MS. WASTWEET: No. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I don’t think it will fit. Yeah, I understand. But -MS. WASTWEET: Any other comments or support for that idea? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: motion? Well, what if I made a MS. WASTWEET: You can make a motion. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Okay. I would move that we would add Tonawanda Seneca underneath Ely Parker's name. That's my motion. MS. WASTWEET: Do I have a second for that motion? DR. VIOLA: I'll second. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. WASTWEET: Thank you. Herman seconds that motion. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: And the only reason why I'm asking, or presenting this motion is that that was one of the preferences that the -- or one of the Seneca tribes, that that be noted. MS. LANNIN: So you would move up -- MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: that -- move that up. Yeah, I'd move -- move Take the one out and put it maybe on his sleeve or behind him. Take the dollar sign out and just it up. And if you look at 14A, pretty much all that information is there. So I agree. that that is a lot on a small coin. this -- I think Parker needs this. I agree with Heidi However, I think MS. WASTWEET: Would you want to amend your motion to say to fit it in rather than saying specifically below the name, just to -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Oh yes, so to fit it in. It doesn't matter if it goes below or above. But I would like to add it, add it to -- and if in adding, we need to move the dollar sign to the right, to behind him. MS. WASTWEET: so the motion is to add Tonawanda Seneca wherever it can fit most pleasingly. Herman, do you want to also agree with that? DR. VIOLA: Yes, I agree. MS. WASTWEET: Any other comments? -- a show of hands, everyone in favor. MS. LANNIN: No, four. MR. JANSEN: Too damn much. MS. WASTWEET: Two against. Then let's Six. Against? Motion carries. Dennis? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Dennis? Thank you. Dennis, did you -MR. TUCKER: Aye. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Aye. Thank you. MS. WASTWEET: Okay. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. WASTWEET: MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Dennis. Motion carries. One of -- one of Ely Parker's greatest legacies after he became grand sachem was he was able to negotiate the repurchase of about twothirds of the Seneca lands. So I think it's important to acknowledge his connection to that legacy. And using the name of the Tonawanda Senecas does that. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. LANNIN: MS. WASTWEET: Okay. Yes. Good. Thank you. Good. Any other motions or changes, comments, concerns? MS. LANNIN: I make a motion that we go on to the next. MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: MS. WASTWEET: Dreams? Move on. Desperations. Let's move on. 2021-22 AMERICAN EAGLE PLATINUM PROOF COIN PROGRAM MS. STAFFORD: The American Eagle Platinum Proof coin program, started in 1997, has long tied individual coins together through thematic series, such as “Vistas of Liberty,” “Foundations of Democracy” and “Preamble to the Constitution.” For the first time in the history of this program, designs for the three year “Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness” series were developed by artists at the same time. And the candidate designs were reviewed and selected at the same time as well. This ensured each design not only appropriately represented the specific theme for that year but also presented the unique opportunity to have the obverses work together across the three coins to give expression to these core American principles. The 2021 through 2025 series will reflect the five freedoms enumerated in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution; that is: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.” We once again asked artists to create designs that not only well represent each individual year’s freedom, but that also work together harmoniously across the five-year series. To illustrate their approach to this task, artists developed submissions for the first three years in the series: for 2021, "Freedom of Religion"; 2022, "Freedom of Speech"; and, 2023, "Freedom of the Press." They were given the option to submit rough sketches or a description of how they would depict the remaining two designs for 2024 and 2025, specifically "Freedom of Assembly" and "Freedom to Petition," respectively. We also developed a portfolio of candidate designs for just the first year of this series, 2021’s "Freedom of Religion." We wanted the artists to be able to focus on representing this singular freedom without the constraint of conceiving the design in consideration with the four others in the series. As such, we will present to you both portfolios for this program, one portfolio of multiple designs created in concert with one another across the series and another portfolio of designs developed only to represent the first freedom, "Freedom of Religion." Please note we are not looking for design recommendations at this meeting, but rather feedback to guide us and the artists on next best steps. For instance, should we continue to develop the designs as a series or agree that it is best to focus on each design as a unique statement of that particular year’s freedom? Or the committee may advise us to bring back only some of the designs in both categories, a subset of the strongest ideas that should be further developed. We are scheduled to bring back revised designs in March 2019 for recommendations. Required obverse inscriptions for the platinum proof coin are “LIBERTY,” “IN GOD WE TRUST,” “E PLURIBUS UNUM” and the year of issuance. The reverse design introduced for the 2018 through 2020 Platinum Proof series featuring an American eagle will be the same reverse throughout the 2021 through 2025 series. And it's seen here on our screen. First, we're going to look at the designs developed in concert with one another across the series. This is set one. The artist tied together these designs through its use of flora and a traditional Liberty figure. The 2021 design for this set features Liberty surrounded by floral symbols of various religions of our world. The inscription "FREEDOM OF RELIGION" is included. The 2022 design depicts Liberty with a stylized laurel in the background, symbolic of victory and honor. The flag is included in the design because the Supreme Court has interpreted speech broadly and also applied to it the symbolic expression such as displaying flags. The inscription "FREEDOM OF SPEECH" is included. 2023 portrays Liberty holding a document, symbolic of the press or printed material, with stylized laurel in the background. The inscription “FREEDOM OF THE PRESS” is included. The artist submitted the following narrative to illustrate how he or she would continue this set. Note that the treatment along the border of the designs would remain the same. For 2024, or the "Freedom of Assembly," the artist envisions that the design would feature multiple profiles facing right, reminiscent of Liberty used on various coins in the past. A background of symbolic plants would be used similar to those featured in 2021 through 2023. 2025, or the "Freedom of Petition," would have Liberty depicted to the waist, facing left. holding a placard or not. She may be The background would be made of other placards containing no text, making a geometric pattern. And there would be space between allowing for proof polishing. A plant symbolic of freedom again would be introduced into the design. Moving on to set two, this set features designs set against a backdrop of a symbolic image of the American flag. 2021 portrays eight figures of different faiths, cultures and viewpoints. “FREEDOM OF RELIGION” is included. The inscription 2022 depicts a woman giving a speech with the inscription “FREEDOM OF SPEECH." 2023depicts an 18th century style printing press similar to Ben Franklin's printing press. The inscription “FREEDOM OF THE PRESS” is included. 2024 features a trio of peaceful demonstrators with the inscription “FREEDOM TO ASSEMBLE." And 2025 illustrates the inscription of “FREEDOM TO PETITION” with an image of the scales of Justice. Set three's unifying elements are the use of consistent typography, hand gestures and shields that represent the United States Constitution and the protection that the First Amendment provides for each of the five freedoms in this series. 2021 features praying hands typical of many religions, with the inscription “FREEDOM OF RELIGION." 2022 represents the hand gestures of a person behind a speaker’s podium and microphone during a public speech. The inscription “FREEDOM OF SPEECH” is included. 2023 depicts a person publishing a story on a laptop computer as it is received through a source via smart phone. The protection of the freedom of the press is particularly relevant in the age of digital and social media with content that can be published instantly by any American with a communication device. The inscription “FREEDOM OF THE PRESS” is included. 2024 represents solidarity with hands clasped together in a group assembly. OF ASSEMBLY” is included. The inscription “FREEDOM And 2025 portrays the hands of a person signing the first signature of a clip board petition. This is a typical method used to garner public support of an issue or grievance that can be presented to local, state or federal government representatives to act on. The inscription “FREEDOM TO PETITION” is included. Sets four and 4A enshrine the language of the First Amendment surrounding the text with a laurel wreath. We'll start with set four. Four and 4A depict a torch above the inscription, “CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW RESPECTING AN ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION, OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF.” Liberty holding the torch. Four features And we have 4A. 2022-04 features Liberty with arms outstretched above the inscription, “CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW ABRIDGING THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH.” portrays Liberty with a scroll and features the 2023 inscription, “CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW ABRIDGING THE FREEDOM OF THE PRESS.” Set five features a variety of allegorical figures. Each figure represents different concepts of liberty as expressed through the rights enumerated in the First Amendment. Additionally, the key word from each freedom is inscribed using script modeled after the original text of the Bill of Rights. 2021 shows Liberty in different attitudes or postures of worship, prayer and meditation, suggesting the diversity of religious practice in America. The inscription “RELIGION” is included. 2022 portrays Liberty engaged in three basic modes of speech. These simple avenues of expression -- writing, formal speaking or lecturing and raising one’s voice in the public square -- are fundamental. The inscription “SPEECH” is included. 2023 shows Liberty busily engaged in publishing and reading printed materials. One reviews a large printed sheet, one reads from a bound book and a third operates an 18th century printing press. inscription “THE PRESS” is included. The Set seven feature people participating in the respective freedom depicted. 2021 depicts different attitudes of prayer used by some of the religions of our nation, where we have the right to gather and worship according to our faith. 2022 portrays the magnified power of people's individual voices when peacefully assembled to shed light on issues. A sign with the inscription, “OUR VOICES WILL NOT BE SILENCED” is included. 2023 showcases a selection of the various mediums that the press uses in its reporting of the news. 2024 is a rough sketch that depicts an assembled group of figures, while 2025 features a petition on a clipboard being signed. Set eight primarily uses the hands of people participating in the various freedoms of the First Amendment. 2021 depicts hands in attitudes of prayer used by some of the religions of our nation. 2022 portrays the magnified power of people's individual voices when peacefully assembled. 2023 showcases a selection of the various mediums that the press uses in its reporting of the news. 2024 is a rough depiction of an assembled group of figures. And 2025 features a petition on a clipboard. Set nine illustrates the freedoms in action. 2021 shows the torch-bearing hand of the Statue of Liberty, which is a welcomed site to generations of immigrants arriving to the United States. Her torch illuminates the inscription, “CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW RESPECTING THE ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION.” 2022 depicts two hands holding a sign with the inscription, “FREEDOM OF SPEECH.” And 2023 illustrates the freedom of the press throughout the ages. top is a town crier. At the In the middle is an early 20th century news boy holding up a paper. And at the bottom is a contemporary young man getting his news on a phone. The inscription “FREEDOM OF THE PRESS” is included. Set 10 uses the oak tree as a metaphor for our country’s growth as a nation that values freedom. Liberty grows to a thing of strength and beauty from a seed, that specifically being our Bill of Rights. In 2021, this design depicts a seedling and an acorn with the inscription, “LIBERTY GROWS.” The inscription “FREEDOM OF RELIGION” is also included. 2022-03 features a juvenile oak tree with the inscription, “LIBERTY BLOSSOMS.” The inscription “FREEDOM OF SPEECH” is included. 2023 portrays a mature oak tree with the inscription, “LIBERTY BEARS FRUIT.” The inscription “FREEDOM OF THE PRESS” is included. The artist submitted the following narrative to illustrate how they would continue with set 10. text format would remain the same. The In 2024, the design would depict an arrangement of leaves on branches from multiple distinct types of oak trees with the additional inscription of, “LIBERTY SPREADS.” And 2025 would portray a mature spreading, strong oak tree that would be filling the space with the additional inscription, “LIBERTY ENDURES.” Set 11. Set 11 features an inscription of the relevant text of the First Amendment. In terms of protecting our freedoms, the courts, and ultimately the Supreme Court, plays a vital role in our democracy. The nine dots at the top of the design, arranged in an arc like the Supreme Court justices’ seats, are a subtle nod to the nine justices in our nation’s highest court who have carefully considered the words in the First Amendment when making their judgments. 2021 shows a woman with her hands on her chest, a gesture meant to symbolize the beliefs one holds metaphorically in one’s heart. The modern clothing hints that the design is a modern interpretation of the First Amendment. The inscription “CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW RESPECTING THE ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION” is included. 2022 depicts three figures representing different aspects of our modern understanding of the Freedom of Speech. On the left, a woman emphatically speaks, exercising the right to speak aloud thoughts that others may not agree with. In the center, a person hands out flyers and literature, exercising a form of speech that is not verbal. On the right, a young man stands in defiant silence, exercising his right not to speak. The inscription “CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW ABRIDGING THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH” is included. 2023 highlights a piece of printed paper bearing part of a controversial 1734 American song which was printed in a newspaper. The printer of this newspaper was accused and tried by a grand jury for libel. While this trial took place before the Bill of Rights was created, it laid the groundwork for the development of the idea of the freedom of the press. The inscription, “CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW ABRIDGING THE FREEDOM OF THE PRESS” is included. Set 11A, the designs all have the inscriptions “FIRST AMENDMENT” and “LIBERTY”. Also featured, in a typeface similar to the handwriting in the original Bill of Rights, the most identifiable word specifically related to the freedom depicted within the design. The designs are identical otherwise to those in set 11. Here we have 2021, 2022 and 2023. Moving on to the portfolio of designs that were created with a singular focus on the 2021 coin, or "Freedom of Religion", we have design one that takes its inspiration from Moses Jacob Ezekiel’s “Religious Liberty” statue in Philadelphia. Centrally featured is a depiction of Freedom pointing upward declaring religious liberty. The young man, holding the burning torch of religion, represents the genius of faith. The scroll represents the power of the Constitution and the eagle clutching a serpent represents vanquishing tyranny through democracy. Design two depicts Liberty watching as a butterfly, symbolizing the freedom of religion, lands on her hand. The butterfly is used symbolically in many religions because of its transformation from a caterpillar, representing the soul, reincarnation, resurrection and femininity. The inscription “FREEDOM OF RELIGION” is included. Three and four feature gleaming candles because light and fire are an ancient and central symbol in many religions. Candles are common to temples and shrines and additionally figure prominently in rituals. included. The inscription “FREEDOM OF RELIGION” is Three, and design four. Designs five and six depict a man with his arms wide open, his stance representing a declaration of faith. The trees on the horizon represent the growing establishment of different religions. This is design five and six. Design seven depicts a stylized image of a heart on fire that is framed within a silhouette of the Liberty Bell. The Liberty Bell represents freedom and is the backdrop and foundation for the right of American citizens to practice any religion. The inscription “FREEDOM OF RELIGION” is included. Design eight places the text of the First Amendment in a spiral form. The spiral is one of the oldest symbols and is embraced by and featured in many cultures and religious traditions around the world. It generally becomes an icon for nature, cosmic wisdom and a universe in constant motion. The theme of motion is emphasized by the italic text leading inward and the need to turn the coin in your hand to read the text. Design nine centrally features a hand symbolizing a proclamation that this nation cherishes and protects the legacy of religious freedom. The bluebird embodies the arrival of spring, emblematic of new beginnings. The lilac represents purity, spirituality and eternal love. Design 10 illustrates a harmonious grouping of various attitudes of prayer, spiritual petition and thanksgiving. These religious freedoms are protected by the First Amendment, and gives us the option of choosing which spiritual path we decide to follow. The inscription “FREEDOM OF RELIGION” is included. Design 11 depicts a traditional figure of Liberty and floral symbols of various world religions with the inscription “FREEDOM OF RELIGION." Design 12 showcases a butterfly, symbolizing the freedom of religion, and a purple coneflower. The butterfly again is used symbolically in many religions because of its transformation from a caterpillar. The inscription “FREEDOM OF RELIGION” is included. Design 13 again draws inspiration from Moses Jacob Ezekiel’s “Religious Liberty” statue in Philadelphia. It depicts Lady Liberty and, on her right, the young man as the genius of faith holding the burning torch of religion. The laurel and scroll represent the power of the Constitution. The eagle clutching a serpent represents vanquishing tyranny through democracy. Design 14 depicts three hands -- three pairs of hands in various gestures of prayer set against the United States flag with the inscription “FREEDOM OF RELIGION." Design 15 features three sets of hands, coming from three different directions, clasped in prayer representing different directions from which people may come, united by their freedom of religion. In this design, the most universal expression of religion is illustrated, that of prayer, with the inscription added “FREEDOM OF RELIGION." Additional designs that artists shared that could be standalone for the series, for "Freedom of Speech," we received one. This is a design for 2022 depicting the idea that speech is the expression of thought that can change the world. In this design, a solid brick wall is being penetrated by the illumination of that thought, with the inscription “FREEDOM OF SPEECH." And finally, a design that came in, a standalone design for 2023, that depicts a figure utilizing an antique book press, with the inscription “FREEDOM OF THE PRESS" included. MS. WASTWEET: Whew. Thank you, April. not sure where to start exactly. I'm But I do want to say thank you so much for the effort put in here. Even though it's overwhelming, we appreciate all of the effort. And especially thank you for allowing us to weigh in at this point. MS. STAFFORD: That goes to Vanessa, who worked hard on this, a double portfolio. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, Vanessa. It would be heartbreaking if we saw these as a finished packet. So it's great to be able to weigh in at this early point. I would like to -- I'll start the comments myself. I think first I want to say, when I'm looking at all of these in general, the thought that I hold in my head is that this is a platinum coin. high price point. It's a very It's a little over $1,200. And when I think about as a collector, not as an artist or sculpture or a designer, but as a collector, if I'm going to pay $1,200 for a coin, it's got to be beautiful. It's got to really pull me in and say I want to own that as a piece of art. MR. MORAN: She hit the nail on the head right there. MS. WASTWEET: They're thoughtful. graphic. And a lot of these are clever. They are descriptive. They're But they're not all beautiful and certainly most of them would not entice me to pull $1,200 out of my pocket. So first, let's look at set number one. think these are beautiful. I do What really puts me off about these is that they look very Grecian. And while our Constitution and our government is greatly inspired by the Ancient Greeks, I don’t necessarily feel it's appropriate or desired by me in this program. I would much rather see these figures clothed in a more timeless fashion, more American. Not necessarily modern, but maybe something that could be modern. But I don’t like the Greek toga idea here. The faces are beautiful. I like the gestures. I don’t -- I confess I don’t know which religions are represented by the flowers. I like the idea of it. like the theme of the plants running through here. I I especially like the freedom of press, her gesture, the fact that she's holding, you know, a page. hair. I like her I think this is a direction I would like to see worked on some more. The next set, number two, these may be accurate. They answer the call of what we want to represent. But honestly, they're not beautiful. I would not purchase them. Set number three, again, clever. something that I would call art. illustration. Not I would call this If these were chapters in a book about these freedoms, that would make sense. I'm not inspired to purchase that. But as a coin, It's drawn well, well thought out, just not beautiful. Set number four, I said this before. it again. I love to read books. read articles. I'll say I read magazines. I I don’t really like to read poems. Set five, these I also find really beautiful. And again, we have this theme of Lady Liberty as representing ideas. And this may be the direction to go. So I ask that the Mint explore that a little more, having Lady Liberty representing these ideas might be the best idea. I don’t like the words religion, speech and the press. I understand the reason for that, that it was inspired by the Constitution and that original handwriting. Again, I don’t like how it runs over the image. I don’t think it's particularly legible, especially press. It looks like preps. is not always going to work. And accuracy I would like those to be incorporated in a different way. I did like -- I do -- let me rephrase that. think it's important that each coin say what it represents, freedom of speech, freedom of religion and not much more. on here. There's already a lot of required text So I don’t think that it has room for anything else. But it is important to say what it represents. I think it's interesting that each one has three women on it. It's not necessary. But it's an interesting idea to try to do this triad, sort of the I three Graces in each one. these again? And what is the size of Is this a one-inch? MS. FRANK: 1.2 MS. LANNIN: 1.287. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: MS. WASTWEET: 32.7 millimeters. An inch and a quarter. think it can carry that much information. though. accuracy. All right. So I It's tight Set seven, again, we have a lot of Not much as far as what I would say fine art, especially petition. It's very literal. Number -- for single number eight, or set eight -- go back. Yeah, the one with the bullhorn. actually like this one. the assembly. very modern. I I like the hands representing The woman looks very energetic. It's I'm not sure it rises to the level that I would purchase it. But I like the direction. Let's put it that way. The acorn ones, set 10, I appreciate trying to think out of the box. for it. I just don’t think I'm signed up I think it's a little too stretching symbolically. Again, going back to our earlier conversation about intention versus interpretation, just because someone says this is what this represents doesn't mean that that's what is received by the viewer. They're attractive. Set 11, there's some really interesting things going on here. flat silhouette. I like how the body fades into just a This feels very modern, very innovative. Again, too much text going on here. like that. I like that, the nine circles. like the third one. It's just lettering. think it rises to the price point. I don’t I don’t I don’t I keep coming back to that. And let's see what we have next. AEP-01. Yeah. It's pretty. The single But I don’t think it really nails the idea of religion. And number two, when I see a butterfly, I'm not familiar with this symbol used in religion personally. Maybe some others are. When I see the butterfly, I think of nature. I think of a zoo or educating about the environment. don’t think of religion. It's a nice face though. candles in my opinion are too simplistic. I The Number five, it's not often that it works to have the back of someone on a coin. -- I'm not really moved by these. And I don’t really Number seven would work on a smaller coin, maybe a nickel or something like that. I don’t think it works as a platinum and it's very standalone. Number eight I think is way too simple. Number nine, again, I don’t get the symbology. nice design. But I don’t get it. It's a Number 10, so we have a few -- 10 and 11, these are set up like they're frames. So again, if we're trying to rise to the level of art, imagine going into an art museum and you see a very beautiful, ornate frame. in it. But there's no painting That's what this makes me feel like. It's just there's a border and there's no subject. Number 12 is attractive but I don’t -- the butterfly still doesn't work for me. Number one, I don’t think that is worth pursuing personally. Twenty-one -- or 23-1, I really like this one, not necessarily the text of the freedom of the press. But I like the idea of it. I like the flying pages. I like the symmetry. looking. It's a little old-fashioned It'd be nice if there's something a little more modern brought into the design. I'd like to see this same style applied to the other freedoms. Personally I think that has some promise. I think I've gone through the packet. a lot to go through. register this? That's So are we -- how are we going to Are we voting on this? MR. WEINMAN: This is up to the group. mean, you don’t have to. I Once again, we're not asking for design recommendations. MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: For a decision. You could, by motion, tell us what you want us -- what you want the artists to continue with, what you don’t. We do have voting sheets here for the -MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: Or scoring, scoring sheets. Scoring sheets for the sets and for the individual designs that, once again, these are tools. us data. And so, you could use them as tools to provide And I'm happy to pass them out right now, early on, if you want to utilize them that way. MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: Or we could use -Whatever you think is -- MS. WASTWEET: We could use just the merit column instead of going one, two, three. MR. WEINMAN: You could use merit columns. That's entirely possible. And it might be -- it might be a valuable way of doing things. MS. FRANK: And if I may add, similar to what Heidi did, also just letting us know which components of it, you know, you would like dialed up or dialed back. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I think -- I believe that this is such a huge portfolio and so many designs, the effort that went into this is tremendous. I think that the artists really worked hard to try and interpret what we were hoping for. Some of these are -- some of these designs I believe are very innovative. Some of them, as Heidi pointed out, what would you want to spend your $1,200 or $1,500 on a platinum coin. So when I look at these, I X a lot of them because they're good -- they may be very good designs. But I don’t think they answer that question or that problem. One little thing, I had to really look up bluebird. The little bird, you know, I'm kind of thinking is this a hawk or a finch or what is it. was just there in the corner. Right there. Please, bluebirds, you know, eat seeds. have a very pointed beak. It They This is not -- this is a little hawk beak, a little bit of a shrike. So if you're kind of wanting this to be religion, you know, we need to pay attention to what the symbol is that we're using. And I think that this is a lovely concept. love the bird and the flowers. cool. I I think that's very But I don’t really think about this as being religion -- you know, freedom of religion. That's -- I mean, I could keep going. MS. WASTWEET: Yeah. I just -- While you're -- just keep going, yeah. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: do it this way. Well, I really wanted to Well, I'm just basing this on what we are looking for in terms of we're not looking at a quarter. coin. We're not looking at what I consider a public I loved the -- I can't even talk about set four. I loved the contemporary concept of set seven. But then I'm going to back to what this coin is in terms of monetary value. And I guess I would have to listen to our esteemed collectors. And I wish Donald Scarinci were here because he would probably have a grand idea about what this whole project would be about. What is it that a collector wants? And I think I'm going to turn this to Tom because I think I probably will add some more thoughts later because I think this session about these designs is truly a time for discussion, not necessarily quite yet for voting but jut to discuss. And so, Tom, please? MR. URAM: Well, I was just going to follow up with what April said. You know, are we looking at these designs as it relates to sets or are we looking at individual pieces of art for the designs. And my thought as this whole series goes, this series probably has the best designs that the Mint has ever done. You know, and unfortunately they only sell 1,400, 1,500, 2,500. But yet, the preamble on all the different series that have taken place in the platinum series are just terrific. You could use them as a quarter series really, you know, to take some of these designs because they were and are one of these best designs in topics as well. So having said that, I lean a little bit away -- April, you had asked the question should we be looking at sets or not. like the acorn idea. I did like set five. I did That was really different. But I think I'd rather have the opportunity to choose between different designs than to have three in a row that are going to be looking nearly linear for the most part. So as the series goes, I would probably be looking at changing -- or doing -- looking at more different designs per year versus as a set. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. WASTWEET: So to clarify, you don’t necessarily feel the need to have one artist do the whole set, but you like the set having more variety? MR. URAM: Correct. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I have -- I have -- yes. I would like to see more of a variety. I think that -- I don’t think that any one of these sets -- and some of them are really very interesting and beautiful. But I don’t think any one of these sets would -- in my opinion captivates my imagination enough to say, boy, I need five of these. You know, maybe one. I mean, I truly love Liberty blossoms. great. I think that's And I love this whole set. But I don’t know if I want another two of them like this. You know, and I don’t really think about these as being a freedom of anything except a beautiful execution of the oak -- phases of the oak tree. MR. JANSEN: If you recall back to the meeting we had where we considered the artwork for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, I think most of the members here were here for that. If I recall it correctly, that really went down as follows. Life, yeah, I see a lot of designs. Liberty, yeah, pretty good. one's tough. Pursuit of happiness, this I only really see one that does it. I like that one. out of it? Why don’t we do two and make a series Ta-da. So we backed into it. And it worked in that case. But we certainly didn't set out to do it that way. And I think -- gosh, the pursuit of the best of the idea is probably more important than the continuity of a series. Now, having said that, collectors love a series. If this was a circulating coin and there were potentially numismatic sales of 40 or 50 or, God bless us, 100,000 per, it might be worth emphasizing that. But it's not. So I kind of scribbled some thoughts here as Heidi was speaking. And so, rather than go design by design, there is the question to the committee are we looking for classical, and dare I say Greco, or are we looking for modern, and dare I say graphical or illustrative. And I don’t hear a hard choice. But what I hear quite often is that Greco is kind of great if you were in Teddy Roosevelt's time but probably doesn't work so much now. I'm hearing beautiful. Now, I think that is the case. And Heidi highlighted the point that if I'm going to spend this kind of money, I want that kind of art. So I actually broke it down to a sophistication versus a casual. Now, maybe that's a reiteration of classical versus illustrations. I'm not sure it is. there's a subtle different there. I think I personally go for sophisticated versus casual. It's a relatively large palate. sophisticated art. It can carry It can carry sophisticated relief. And I think the price point demands sophistication. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. JANSEN: too much text. Yes. What I'm constantly hearing is Now, I think in these abstract concepts -- now, "Freedom of the Press" may not be as abstract as some of the other concepts we have here, such as "Freedom of Religion." It might be interesting to give some guidance to allow limited text so that we don’t get one of these series where it is essentially a textually delivered message. I don’t remember which item it was, like five or six or something in here, set five. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. JANSEN: Okay. Four. Where is it? Just to make sure my point is clear. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. MORAN: Four. MR. JANSEN: MR. MORAN: not medallic. That's terrible. Set four? Okay. Yes. It's terrible. MR. JANSEN: doing medals here. Four. For instance -- okay, we're not And the price point is definitely And so, I think we probably -- again, I don’t want to speak for the committee. But what I constantly here is not so much, if I dare use the pun. Appropriate use of symbols and metaphors, and the grossest example -- and by that, I mean the just -- not gross in the ugly sense, gross in the overarching sense -- is the oak set here. Now, last time I checked, oak was kind of a metaphor for -MS. WASTWEET: MR. JANSEN: MS. WASTWEET: MR. JANSEN: Strength. Pardon me? Strength. Strength, endurance, exactly. And yet, it's parlayed into each of these five dimensions and makes great for continuity, but it kind of is a miscast metaphor. And so, somewhere along the line, I'm hearing the committee saying don’t mix your metaphors inappropriately. And that may be lost on some people. be guidance that they can't really grasp. That may But I think that's the closest way I can give tight dimensionality to this thing. Those are my thoughts. MS. WASTWEET: MS. LANNIN: Thank you. I will. MS. WASTWEET: MS. LANNIN: talking about. Mary? Who dares go next? I'll go. Thank you. Because I have no idea what I'm I actually like the oak. MR. JANSEN: There you go. MS. LANNIN: Yes, it's a symbol of strength. But if I'm going to fork over $1,200 to $1,400, I want something really classic, really clean, something with a lot of negative space. And it's an interesting interpretation. And I would like to see -- so this goes back to having a whole series of five. We can't just pick "Freedom of Religion" and have that oak seedling and then do something else, you know, for the rest of it. So that kind of ties us into a five-year series. MR. JANSEN: Right. And so, in that case, the metaphor is not carrying the message. MS. LANNIN: But -- MR. JANSEN: That's the whole point. What you just said is oak doesn't work for me across the board. It works maybe once. MS. LANNIN: Let me finish my sentence, Erik. MR. JANSEN: Yeah, go ahead. MS. LANNIN: So, but what I'm trying to say is that this is clean-looking. It's something that someone has put some thought into. It's a different way of looking at something. The other series that I was intrigued with, going back to the sophisticated series, is set number five. But that ties directly to the -- in my mind to the series that we have just finished. So it almost looks like the we or the Mint said, okay, you've got it all for the next eight years. You know, so it's the same kind of art. But I do like the bold religion, speech, the press. I don’t dislike the sort of antique style of the graphics of the words because they are taken from that time period. And they would match the other sets. I do like the vision of the three women as three Graces. There's always an action figure, one or more in those, so that to me -- those two sets are the ones that really stuck out for me. I think if we do people in modern dress, in five years, all that's going to change. I mean, like the woman in her little button-up sweater, even though her head sort of disappeared, that's a button-up cardigan from like the '50s. That's not modern to me. The kid with the -- you know, for the "Freedom of the Press" with a laptop and a cellphone, who knows what our cellphones are going to look like by the time we get to that coin. Do you know what I'm saying? So kind of going back to the fact that we are a democracy and going back to a Greco-Roman style of art on that, to me, that is worth paying $1,400 for, not what something's concept of a cellphone is going to look like or, you know, a megaphone or a radio dial combined with those other things. They just seem very -MS. WASTWEET: MS. LANNIN: approach. Dated. -- the kitchen sink kind of So that's all I have to say about that. MS. WASTWEET: MR. MORAN: Thank you, Mary. Oh, Heidi. Let me get it over with. MS. WASTWEET: MR. MORAN: Go. I'll just start with set five because it's up there. continuity there. Oh, Mike. I think that there is I like the fact that you bring in the written word and you bring it in, in a late 18th century style, particularly the double S of press there. That's straight from the German and Old English. We may get tired of the three figures over time. I don’t know that we ought to ask the artist to lock in on that. But I like that late 18th century elegance that you see there. Now, going back to set four for a contrast, set -- maybe set three. Here's one that has a theme that goes across the board. And it's out of whack. I mean, it's okay. hands. that. It's nice. But will it sell? It's innovative about the Because we've touched on It's not going to sell. marketable. It's not really I wouldn't spend anywhere close to anything for that. And way too much space is wasted with the placards of freedom of the various freedoms. Let's go forward to, what is it, maybe set number six. Yeah, that. is what we don’t want. Seven. That's the one. It's very trendy. This It may not be appropriate by the time we actually coin it. I'm particularly put off by "Freedom of Speech." If anything, that looks like the repression of speech there. We need to go back to again -- and what Mary said -- the elegant style I think in order to match it with what we've done in the past with the other series. This is -- if you were to lay this up against the other platinum that these collectors collect, this would be jarring. MR. TUCKER: Mike, I'm sorry for interrupting. But which set were you just talking about? MR. MORAN: Seven. MR. TUCKER: MR. MORAN: set one. there. Okay. Thank you. All the way back to I think it was I can't put my finger on what I don’t like I finally got the idea of the flowers from the various religions. to me. But it wasn't intuitively obvious It had to be explained to me. MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: It could work. Yeah. They need to sharpen that one up. But it needs more work from the artist. And the very last one that I'll go to, scroll forward slowly. I think it's three. one. Forget that one. Just forget that one. we've talked about that one. inscriptions. period. It's definitely not that That. And I'm back to We're not in the inscription business, I'm done, Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you. Dennis, are you ready to go? MR. TUCKER: Yes. Thank you. I find myself, as many of my colleagues are, focusing more on styles rather than individual designs. And I would like to see one artist develop designs across the entire program, you know, so we do have that coherent look and feel. And I think that would also help us avoid the challenges of symbols being duplicated. I just think we'll have a better portfolio if we have a single artist working with continuity. And I think there's been a lot of good commentary about what our collectors are going to expect and want to see. I agree that the more illustration-based kind of, you know, almost political campaign button type approach of set three, for example, some of these other -- some of these other design sets, they might make good things like head openings, you know, thinking in terms of book design. But are they really -- like Mike said, do these really great to the fabric or the tone of what platinum coin buyers have bought in the past. I think that's a legitimate question to ask. I don’t think that platinum is a metal that will sell in greater quantities if we can just find the right magic tone or style. You know, I don’t think -- I don’t think that's what holds back the numbers. You know, the reason -- the reason that we only sell 5,000, 6,000, 7,000 of these coins rather than 70,000 or 80,000 is the price point. It's not the style of the fabric. And I say that because I don’t think that we could make this popular and therefore -- you know, make popular designs and therefore create a popular audience for these coins. The price point is just too high. So I think we keep it sophisticated. We focus our guidance for the artists on the styles we would like to see rather than getting too nitpicky at this point about what particular designs and symbols we'd like to see. You know, and I agree that five is a nice look. Set one is a nice look. You know, these are in keeping with what we've done in the past. the acorns is a nice look. Set 10 with I think it fails on various levels that we've discussed in the symbology, for example. But that would be the kind of broad brush approach I would take to guiding our artists, focusing more on style that we'd be looking for at this point. MS. WASTWEET: Any more to add, Dennis? MR. TUCKER: No. I think that concludes my comments. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you. Mary wants to add something. MS. LANNIN: obvious. I just, I mean -- I'm stating the As a collector, we're all a little bit obsessive-compulsive, you know, when we start with something like that. So I'm channeling Donald Scarinci, who can't be here, who will buy the complete set of whatever we do. So it needs to kind of pass the Donald test where we're not just sort of randomly taking a series of five ideas and throwing different art against it. And so, I'm really in favor of having a single artist do the entire five series. And the people that have $1,200 or $1,400 -- look at it this way. They're going to have $6,000 almost invested in this series by the time that we're done, depending on the price of platinum. So it's got to be really classically beautiful. It's got to be simple. And I really don’t think, at those prices, it can be a contemporary look. I think we have to go back to the classical images and what they represent in that series. So that's my little Donald speech. MS. WASTWEET: I think one area that might be a disconnect between the committee and the Mint is you hear us often say we want to see modern designs. But when we say modern, we don’t mean cellphones and laptops and fashion. We mean modern in an artistic sense of doing something different, something innovative instead of just a figure on a background incorporating negative space or negative images or silhouettes or design threads, something different rather than what we see over and over again. So it's more of an innovation, a creativity, that kind of modern, not like modern day technology. think those are -- those designs that we're looking at that are depicting modern day, they become quickly dated instead of contemporary even. So that's why these liberties tend to work a little more because they are more timeless. I'd like to get a little out of the Ancient Greek realm but still aim for a timelessness rather than a dated look. I MS. STAFFORD: I know I included it to some degree in the description, but I just wanted to revisit a comment that a couple of members have said about symbolism and whether it's being used appropriately. I know that in the materials provided, and perhaps we didn't do good enough a job in expressing it, but I do know that the artist who created set 10, for example, purposely used the oak for the strength representation, representing our country and, you know, the freedoms that make it strong and enduring and the development from, as they put it, the seeds of our nation, the Bill of Rights and all of that. So perhaps we didn't word it or express it as artfully as we might have. But I just wanted to revisit that because, in the materials submitted, it was -MS. WASTWEET: Yeah, I think -- MS. STAFFORD: -- illuminated thoroughly. MS. WASTWEET: I think you described it well and we understand the intention and how it's trying to do two things to represent the strength of the nation, but then also represent religion and speech and press. And that's where it's a little thin. MR. MORAN: April, if I were to fault this one, it was the artist's decision to restrict it strictly to the oak tree. Perhaps the theme of using trees, but not necessarily oak for some of the others might give them more flexibility. MS. WASTWEET: Another thing I'm hearing in the group is that maybe it is a good idea to have one artist do the set, but maybe a little more variety within that single artist. MR. JANSEN: Yeah. As I just began to peruse these without digging in and going through them systematically, what came to me was the -- as the oak didn't work across the spectrum, hands would. Hands did. Several times, hands appear in the special, the one-offs at the end as well as in a couple of the series. So maybe it's a look/feel that a single artist carries. But at the same time, you hate to commit a series to one artist because, hey, what if, you know, they go off the ranch. through the series. You're out of luck halfway There is -- MS. WASTWEET: And perhaps commit to either one artist through the series or different artists for each one rather than three by one artist, two by another. MR. JANSEN: It's funny. Best of breed seems to most always win in life unless the value of the incumbency, that is the true continuity is really where the value is. So I think we almost need to ask ourselves that question upfront. Is the -- is the -- are the five elements hanging together as a piece of our civilization, what really hangs this series together or are each of the ideas needing to be razor sharp. MS. STAFFORD: That's exactly why we had to bring you two portfolios, because we did not know that answer. MR. JANSEN: Certainly. Yeah. No, certainly. Certainly. And I think we run many more chances to disappoint ourselves, our audience, this process by saying five have got to hang together because there's going to be that one where you're, oh God, this is so good. I want that one in. But that's got to kick out one of the five. MR. URAM: Would the collectors want to have the same stylistic tone across when they're buying them? MR. JANSEN: would. The engineers that are collectors The rest of them, probably not. MR. URAM: MR. MORAN: Right. I think there are two things that come out of this discussion. One is that we like the allegory, the concept of the various allegories. The other is, as Heidi said, modern is not to be interpreted as anticlassical. I think we want a classical figure in a modern way. MS. WASTWEET: MR. MORAN: Yes. And those are the two overriding comments that I get out of this. MR. JANSEN: Would it be your intention to pick all five kind of in a rapid-fire sequence here or are we -MS. WASTWEET: MR. JANSEN: year and pick a third? That's what they're asking us. -- picking one or two and wait a MS. STAFFORD: Well, if the consensus is that it's worth pursuing, you know, the long stretch goal of having the interconnectivity across the five years -and we can certainly commit to bringing you a portfolio or, you know, whether it's once or twice or a third time, to select all five concurrently so you see the set, we can do that. That's what we did with "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness." MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. STAFFORD: So -- But at this stage, if we're just not sure, because I'm hearing many, many people say, yes, there is value in pursuing the synergy, a common theme or convention across the five, have the same artist's hand extend throughout, and then I hear others saying but let's not miss, you know, having the opportunity to really articulate the value of that freedom and the expression that's unique in that one annual theme. So it might be that we don’t make that decision here. Maybe you send us back and we pick a few of each and we come back again in March. But certainly by March we'll need to definitize a direction and move on it. MR. MORAN: Let's go back a hundred years. had three coins to be designed. And we ended up with two designers to do them, Wyman and McNeal. Wyman for all three. MR. JANSEN: MR. MORAN: We Almost had But they said enough is enough. Yeah. I certainly would be willing to look at -- why do I get these phone calls now -anyway, I'm going to turn it over. There we go. It's a junk call anyway. I would be willing to look at three at a time from some of these artists, following the guidelines that we've laid down, but not with the stricture that we choose one set of three but that we're allowed to pick and choose across those. And maybe we'll get one from one or two from another or all three. But it'll give us that little bit of flexibility and then keep the ones that got honorable mentions in the pool to go forward so that you've got some continuity for the next two after that. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I know we have our scoring sheets or our little papers here. Is it possible that today we could say out of these 11 sets or eight sets that we have from different artists, that these four artists are the ones that we would rather look at further? Is that -- is that kind of what you're thinking. MS. STAFFORD: Any feedback. You can go set by set or design by design and say this is worth pursuing. Think about this concept. Go back and revise, bring it back or you can say let's set this aside. this. We're not interested in And we could go through the whole portfolio very quickly and let us know what we should revisit. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I think -- yeah, I think that might be an easier thing for you folks, maybe not for us, but, you know, to be able to say, yeah, we think these are worthy of producing in platinum. I think that's our key thing, is that we need to look at them in platinum. If we were looking at them in silver metal, two-inch size, I'd have a different opinion of some of these. So that's -- I just wanted to clarify that. MR. TUCKER: I think that's a good approach. MS. LANNIN: I have a technical question. Can we get -- can we get on the Internet and look at something besides these so that I could show -- rather than passing around my phone. MS. STAFFORD: MS. LANNIN: Is that possible? Yes. Okay. In Google, this is what I mean by an ancient sort of design but brought into the modern world. Can you put in Georgia, as in the country of Georgia, the number five and the word lari, L-A-R-I? And then just put wine. And I'm saying that only because it's -- I was just there. I was able to, through great personal anguish, find this coin. them. They only made a couple hundred of But this is -- this is a really ancient concept. But it looks totally modern. MS. FRANK: So can we do it or not? Unfortunately the Mint is having network issues right now, so I -MS. LANNIN: Just like home. Okay. I will pass -MR. MORAN: MS. LANNIN: Pass it around, Mary. Okay. I'll pass around my cellphone and so we can take a look at this. But this is an ancient grapevine. But it's the most modern- looking thing you've ever seen. And so, if we had the figures of liberty on these platinum coins sort of interpreting -- you know, an ancient concept interpreted in a modern way, that's to me -- that's worth paying for. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. LANNIN: I'm getting at. That's right. That design. That is. That's kind of what I don’t need the robes and the -- you know, all of that kind of stuff necessarily. I just want a really ancient, basic human concept in a really modern -- done in a really modern way. I think that's an absolutely gorgeous coin. MS. WASTWEET: Robert, you want to add something? MR. HOGE: something. I would. I would like to say First of all -- MS. WASTWEET: MR. HOGE: Microphone? I would like to say something, yes. First of all, Heidi, I agreed with everything that you said when you were going through these pieces individually. I thought that number five was particularly attractive, even though it did include the typical classical garb for the three figures and that idea of the three Graces. But again, it's not really a modern treatment, although the artistic representation is not as much along the traditional lines. Just a moment while I take a look at Georgia's issue here. MS. LANNIN: MR. HOGE: contradiction here. Yeah. Very nice. Turn it sideways, Mike. But what I'm hearing is a lot of We like this idea of sets. like having some continuity. We But the argumentation I've heard is that, well, this isn't what is going to sell the pieces. These are so expensive that it isn't going to make that much difference really what the art is, whether it's in a set or not. And I'm wondering why we can't just have the best work by whatever artist for whatever year. I mean, give them some ideas of what could be possible themes. And these artists have done beautiful work and they've caught the idea of getting a theme. MS. WASTWEET: Yeah. I think if we have that sort of idea where it's a different artist every year, just the best of whatever, then I think we need to give them a little more specific direction. MR. HOGE: Right. MS. WASTWEET: Right. Exactly. Like say we want to see a modern representation of a classic allegory with the word freedom of blah, blah, blah, so it's styled a little more indirectly -MR. HOGE: And we might even give -- MS. WASTWEET: -- so we don’t have a hand on one and an oak leaf on another and liberty on another. MR. HOGE: Right. MS. WASTWEET: So there's some continuity, even though we have a variety of -MR. HOGE: Exactly. Exactly. In this series overall, I think I've seen a bit too much in the way of the national symbolism, too many hands. Seen too many feathers today too. It's sort of -- you know, birds are covered. We've seen a lot of birds here. I love birds. If they're going to be on a coin, platinum or whatever, they need to be in context. There needs to be some kind of explanation. And I think the idea of popularizing this series, it's really going to be popular only if there's really some beautiful work in them. to echo what Gary March used to say. MS. WASTWEET: MR. HOGE: I mean, I'd like We need beauty. Yeah. -- in these things. highest quality possible. We need the And it could be that a single artist would give us the whole series or in every year, in every case he is the artist, he or she that does the best work. But I think that all the artists need to be able to be in this competition each year. MS. WASTWEET: Yeah. Do we have some consensus that we like having a human element, rather than just hands or -MR. URAM: Hands on number seven. MR. MORAN: No, you're right. MS. WASTWEET: that we agree on. Hands are -- So I'm looking for the things I think we agree we don’t want a lot of text. MS. LANNIN: Correct. MR. HOGE: Definitely. MS. WASTWEET: Do we agree we want it to say the freedom of each thing? MR. URAM: Yes. MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Yes. Yes, we have to. MS. WASTWEET: MR. MORAN: So we agree on that. Human element. MS. WASTWEET: We want some modern feel to it, without it being like cellphone, technology, contemporary. MS. LANNIN: Right. MS. WASTWEET: MR. URAM: ideal example. But like a modern -- Contemporary. MS. WASTWEET: MR. HOGE: Right. -- application to the artwork. I think what Mary showed us is an It doesn't even include the human element really. MS. WASTWEET: MR. HOGE: True. And yet, it's very modern in its presentation, even though it includes these classical designs and themes in a modern way. MS. WASTWEET: Do we want this series to be allegorical or are we kind of a little soft on that? MR. HOGE: Symbolic. MS. WASTWEET: Symbolic. What else do we agree on? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I think we should not discourage the artist who did the wonderful -- I forget which set that was with the -- set eight, if we can go back. I know -- well, this is so controversial because it's so contemporary, so -- but I don’t want to discourage this person because I think in -- you know, freedom of speech, it really nails freedom of speech. MS. WASTWEET: I agree. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: And I think that -- and also, freedom of the press, I love that. contemporary. much. It's very It's a lot of information, probably too But this truly is contemporary. Whether it fits the platinum series, I'm not sure. But I don’t want to discourage this person because I think this was a brilliant idea, both of these. Both of these. So the idea -- this was a very contemporary freedom of speech. This is what we're doing. I mean, this is now. This is so important. And, you know, what is it that we want to say in any of our coins? You know, we keep asking think out of the box, do this, do that. we go back to what is safe. They do it and then So we're kind of at fault I think at that. But I do want to encourage this. Now, whether this particular -- I mean, these two -- I think these are great. I like these as well as I like the oak -- the oak -- this. I think this is a different kind of loveliness. So these people I think we should encourage. And I would like to send this back to the Mint. those aren't the ones that we pick. Maybe But it's -- in my opinion -- the direction we should go in so that we've got people in one. We've got, you know, allegory and symbolism in another. today. And I don’t know if we should set the rules I don’t -MS. WASTWEET: rules. Yeah, we don’t have to set But maybe if we do have a consensus that sends a stronger message. That one that you were talking about with the bull horn and the fists -- yeah, that one. this. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yeah. MS. WASTWEET: I like the direction of Yeah. I wish it had a little more design element to it, some other shape or form, texture, some other thing -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. WASTWEET: Well, I think -- -- to rise it to just the next level. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: For me, you know, it's like this is a contemporary woman. the hair. My God, you know, You know, it's everything. The clothing. And, you know, I think that the space -- this element is really addressed right. But like I said, I don’t know if this is the design that we need for this particular series. it, in my opinion, is great. our people. anything? So please pass that on to Thank you. MS. WASTWEET: But Tom, do you want to add MR. URAM: No, I'm done. MS. WASTWEET: DR. VIOLA: Herman? Well, I'd have to say I really like what Mary had to say and I would support that. REPORTER: I'm sorry. MR. WEINMAN: DR. VIOLA: I can't hear you, sir. Microphones. Oh, microphone. hear what I have to say anyway. Mary hit it quite well. You don’t want to So anyhow, I thought And actually, I'm not a collector. I can't even believe spending this kind of money. So I'm a historian. I write books. But I found this discussion quite fascinating and very enlightening. And I'd like to see some of this stuff come to fruition. So I really -- the artists are wonderful. mean, set one is beautiful. I I mean, you know, I wouldn't mind having those hanging on my wall. So I do think I like the idea of trying to have the best artists every time we come up rather than have one person get the assignment. many great artists out there. I mean, there's so So I would say, you know, bon voyage with all of this. MS. WASTWEET: Yeah. Needless to say, we appreciate the difficulty of this task. MS. LANNIN: MS. WASTWEET: MS. LANNIN: new AIP artists. I have a question. Yeah. We're going to be getting some Are they going to be able to weigh in on any of these? MS. STAFFORD: In March. They will not be on -MS. LANNIN: MS. WASTWEET: Okay. Yeah. Thanks. Do you feel like you have enough feedback or would you like us to fill out the forms? MS. STAFFORD: Well, if it's not too much trouble, I just think the data points of having which ones are getting some support might be helpful as we -it would just be another data point. MS. WASTWEET: Okay. MS. STAFFORD: So is it -- MS. WASTWEET: Is it enough if we just check the merit box instead of trying to go one, two, three on each? MS. STAFFORD: Sure. MS. WASTWEET: Okay. MR. JANSEN: So you walk out of here with, of the 11 sets, this one scored the highest, this one scored the second highest, blah, blah, blah? Is that helpful? MS. STAFFORD: Or -- MS. WASTWEET: I'm suggesting we just mark the merit boxes. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: The merit, just the merit. MR. JANSEN: Just merit, so that people can continue -MR. MORAN: The merit -- MR. JANSEN: right. All right. All right. All All right. MS. WASTWEET: For those that you think should be revisited. MR. JANSEN: So it's the same thing. Essentially you're going to be able to stack them up by merit. MS. STAFFORD: Right. You wouldn't be offended if you saw them again in March. MR. JANSEN: MS. STAFFORD: Great. And then, if I can ask, so at least what I'm hearing is that there isn't a clear 100 percent definitized direction on let's go with individual years versus sets. I'm hearing still like pros and cons, which is fine. We can still do both. Certainly you've given us good feedback on the sets and also on the individual ones, which elements you're gravitating towards. I think that's great feedback for the artists. If we do have artists develop individualized designs for the particular annual themes, do you want us to have them design into their competition, for want of a better expression, a template of sorts or what have you to address? I know that there's been a lot of commentary about liking a singular word that represents the freedom, press, religion, speech, so that at least we can have offerings of maybe at least that that could extend beyond the series. MS. WASTWEET: Yes. MS. STAFFORD: Then you'd have various templates that you could discuss at the next meeting. MR. MORAN: Which sheet are we scoring, guys? MS. STAFFORD: MR. JANSEN: MR. MORAN: Both. So the legal size is the sets. Both? MS. STAFFORD: For merit. give them individual scores. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. MORAN: You don’t have to Just -No, this is like -- I'm just going to squiggle some. Yeah, but -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. LANNIN: I'm just going to -- I'm just -- I'm putting X's by the -MR. WEINMAN: This is the ultimate example of these sheets being a tool. MR. MORAN: Oh, it's a tool all right. MR. WEINMAN: In this case, you can use them any way you prefer. MS. WASTWEET: You could -- you could even -- you could write notes on individual ones if you want to. MR. MORAN: Like -- MR. WEINMAN: It gives us -- i's a way of giving us some feedback based on these designs. If you just want to check merit boxes, that gives us some data points to work with. MS. WASTWEET: Okay. Is there any other MS. STAFFORD: One second. MS. WASTWEET: Has everyone had their say? business? MR. WEINMAN: They're busy. They're busy checking. MS. WASTWEET: Everyone's busy. Okay. So if there's no other business, I will thank you all for your participation and for helping me stay on time. And I'm out of my element being the chair. Thank you, Mary. I hope you're back in the chair's seat next meeting. MS. LANNIN: I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you. MS. WASTWEET: MR. WEINMAN: Thank you, and that's a wrap. Ask for a motion to dismiss. MS. WASTWEET: dismiss. Oh. I need a motion to Robert? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. HOGE: I move. So moved. MS. WASTWEET: MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: Second? I'll second it. So we're adjourned. We are adjourned. MS. WASTWEET: MS. LANNIN: MS. WASTWEET: MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: MS. STAFFORD: We are adjourned. There we go. Thank you. Very good, Heidi. Very good, Heidi. Vanessa or I will take your score sheets. MR. TUCKER: Thanks, everyone. Thanks, Greg, for your -- (Whereupon, at 3:46 p.m., the meeting was concluded.) * * * * * CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, NATALIA THOMAS, the officer before whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby certify that the proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my direction; that said proceedings are a true and accurate record to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. NATALIA THOMAS Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER I, BENJAMIN GRAHAM, do hereby certify that this transcript was prepared from audio to the best of my ability. I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to this action, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. October 24, 2018 DATE ___________________ Benjamin Graham