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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
UNITED STATES MINT
CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE

PUBLIC MEETING

United States Mint
801 9th Street Northwest
Washington, D.C. 20220

Tuesday, October 16, 2018

Reported by:

Natalia Thomas

Capital Reporting Company
1250 Eye Street, NW, Suite 350
Washington, D.C. 20005

A P P E A R A N C E S
Advisory Committee Members
Robert Hoge
Erik Jansen
Mary Lannin
Michael Moran
Jeanne Stevens-Sollman
Dennis Tucker
Thomas J. Uram
Herman Viola
Heidi Wastweet

Mint Staff Members
Betty Birdsong
Pam Borer
Inna Drexter
Vanessa Franck
Ron Harrigal
April Stafford
Megan Sullivan
Roger Vasquez
Greg Weinman

A P P E A R A N C E S

Liaison
William Thiesen
United States Coast Guard
Bill Harris
United States Air Force
Jim Adams
Smithsonian Institution

Other Participants
Chris Bulfinch
Coin World

C O N T E N T S
Page
Welcome and Roll Call

5

Approval of Minutes/Secretary Letters

8

Armed Forces Silver Medal Program
U.S. Coast Guard

10

U.S. Air Force

71

2021-22 Native American $1 Coin Program
2021

2022

American Indians in U.S.
Military Service

127

Ely S. Parker

169

2021-22 American Eagle Platinum Proof Coin Program 206

P R O C E E D I N G S
WELCOME AND ROLL CALL
MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:

Good morning.

MS. WASTWEET:
morning.

Good morning, everyone.

Let me put on my mic.

We are in session.

Good

I am Heidi Wastweet.

I

am the acting chair today, since we don’t have an
official appointed chair for this meeting.
The regulations say that, in that case, we go
to the senior member, which is Donald Scarinci, and he
is not here today.

So that leaves you with me.

So bear with me as I struggle my way through
today's meeting, and hopefully we'll finish on time.
We have a full docket.
roll.

To start with, let's call our

Please say present when I say your name, or

whatever you'd like to say.
MR. JANSEN:

Erik Jansen?

Present.

MS. WASTWEET:

Jeanne Stevens-Sollman?

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. MORAN:

Present.

Michael Moran?

Here.

MS. WASTWEET:

Dennis Tucker?

MR. TUCKER:

Present.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. URAM:

Present.

MS. WASTWEET:
DR. VOILA:

Dr. Herman Viola?

Present.

MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:

Mary Lannin?
Present.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. HOGE:

Thomas Uram?

And Robert Hoge?

Present.

MS. WASTWEET:

Excellent.

Today, the CCAC

will be considering the following items: discussion of
the letter to the secretary and the minutes from our
September 27th meeting; candidate designs for the Coast
Guard silver medal; candidate designs for the Air Force
silver medal; candidate reverse designs for the 2021
and 2022 Native American $1 Coin Program; review and
discussion of design concepts for the 2021 through 2022
American Eagle Platinum Proof Coin Program.
Before we begin, are there any members of the
press in attendance?

Do we have any members of the

press on the phone, please?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE:

Can we have a bridge line,

please?

Okay.
MS. WASTWEET:

I'm hearing no responses on the

MR. BULFINCH:

Chris Bulfinch, Coin World

MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you.

phone.

Magazine.

right.

Any others?

All

For the record, I'd like to acknowledge the

following Mint staff that are participating in today's
public meeting: Betty Birdsong, acting liaison to the
CCAC; Greg Weinman, counsel to the CCAC; April
Stafford, chief, office of design management, who will
join us shortly.
Program managers from that office are Pam
Borer, Vanessa Franck, Vanessa Sullivan and Roger
Vasquez.

I'd like to begin with the Mint.

Are there

any issues that need to be addressed?
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. LANNIN:
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:

Ron.
Ron.
Ron?
Also acknowledge Ron Harrigal.

MR. HARRIGAL:

Thank you.

MS. WASTWEET:

Hi, Ron.

MR. HARRIGAL:

Hi.

MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you for joining us.

MR. THIESEN:

This is Bill Thiesen.

I'm with

the U.S. Coast Guard and I'm serving here on behalf of
the chief, who's unable to attend.
dial in until about 10:30.

And I'll be able to

Just wanted to let you

know.
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you.

MS. SULLIVAN:

Thank you.

MS. WASTWEET:

Can you say your name again for

me?
MR. THIESEN:
N.

Well, Bill Thiesen, T-H-I-E-S-E-

I'm the East Coast historian.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. THIESEN:

Thank you.

Thank you, Bill.

Certainly.

APPROVAL OF MINUTES/SECRETARY LETTERS
MS. WASTWEET:

Any other issues to be

addressed before we begin?

All right.

For the first

item on the agenda, approval of the minutes, are there
any comments on the -MR. WEINMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:

And the secretary letters.
And the secretary letters.

Any

comments on those documents?

I hear no comments.

So

is there a motion to approve the minutes and the
letters?
MR. JANSEN:

Motion.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:

Second.

Erik, motion.

And Jeanne, I'll

take your second.
MS. WASTWEET:

All those in favor, please

signify by saying aye.
(Chorus of ayes.)
MS. WASTWEET:

Any no's?

Motion passes.

Letters are approved and the minutes are approved.
April is not with us, so we will go to Megan, please,
if you will.

Start talking about our first item on the

-ARMED FORCES SILVER MEDAL PROGRAM
MS. SULLIVAN:

Thank you, Heidi.

We are going

to begin today with the Armed Forces Silver Medal
Program.

The United States Mint is producing the Armed

Forces Silver Medal Program, designed to honor each
branch of the military with a silver medal.

While the

Mint has previously issued medals that commemorate

something specific about a service branch -- for
example, an anniversary or the role of a particular
battle or unit -- we do not currently have a medal
series that honors each service branch as a whole and
for the entirety of its mission.
These new medals are intended to be inclusive
of all who serve in the Armed Forces and reflect the
depth and breadth of their branch of service.

The

national medals will be part of the Mint's ongoing
medal collection and are not subject to individual or
program mintage limits.
Initially, the medals will be produced on a
2.5 ounce, two inch diameter silver planchet, but in
the future may also be produced in the traditional
three inch and 1.5 inch bronze versions.
Medal designs are being developed for two
branches at a time, beginning with the Air Force and
the Coast Guard.

We begin this morning with the Coast

Guard candidate designs.
U.S. COAST GUARD
MS. SULLIVAN:

Although the U.S. Coast Guard

can trace its roots back to 1790, the Coast Guard we

know today is a blend of a variety of organizations and
services that developed over the years.
On August 4, 1790, Congress approved Alexander
Hamilton’s proposal to create the Revenue Cutter
Service, a fleet of 10 cutters whose purpose was to
protect the revenue of our new nation.
Today the Coast Guard is a multifaceted
service, protecting not only people and vessels, but
also lighthouses, navigation aids, riverways, lakes and
wildlife, as well as inspecting and enforcing economic
traffic, hazardous cargo, migrant interdiction,
national security and much more.
As is said, the Coast Guard protects those on
the sea, protects the nation from threats delivered by
the sea and protects the sea itself.

They are always

ready.
We do have liaisons available to us.

First,

we have Bill Thiesen, who introduced himself earlier.
Thank you for being on the call.

We had two others who

may have had a conflict this morning.

Scott Price, are

you on the phone?
MR. THIESEN:

He's unable to attend.

He's

been called away.
MS. SULLIVAN:
All right.
late.

Okay, and Christie Sinclair?

She may -- she stated that she might arrive

So we may be hearing from her later.
So we will begin with the designs.

Obverse

design CG-O-01 depicts a Coast Guard motor lifeboat
speeding through rough water as an MH-65 Dolphin
helicopter races ahead.
The Boston Lighthouse, one of the oldest
lighthouses in the country, is seen in the background
as a beacon of safety and security.

Inscriptions are

“U.S. COAST GUARD” and “SEMPER PARATUS,” the Coast
Guard motto, meaning “Always Ready.”

This is a strong

design choice, one of the first choices of the Coast
Guard.
Design two depicts a Marine Protector-class
patrol boat on duty with its rescue boat deployed.

The

Coast Guard emblem is found at the bottom of the
design, while the inscription “U.S. COAST GUARD” is
arced across the top.
Design three features one of the Coast Guard’s
National Security Cutters on patrol.

The Coast Guard

emblem is depicted above the bow of the ship.
Inscriptions are “U.S. COAST GUARD” and “SEMPER
PARATUS.”

The Coast Guard identified this as their

number two choice.
Obverse designs 4A and 4B depict a U.S. Coast
Guard National Security Cutter at full throttle,
speeding head-on toward the viewer, conveying the Coast
Guard is “Always Ready.”

The inscription “SEMPER

PARATUS” is arced across the top of the design.

Design

4B includes the additional inscription “U.S. COAST
GUARD.”
Obverse design five features a Coast Guard
rescue swimmer racing through rough water toward the
viewer.

Hovering overhead, the Jayhawk helicopter that

lowered the swimmer waits to hoist the survivors.

The

Coast Guard motto “SEMPER PARATUS” is incused into the
bottom of the waves.
Obverse design six depicts a portrait of
Alexander Hamilton, the founder of the U.S. Coast
Guard.

The Coast Guard emblem is seen on the left.

Around the border are inscriptions, including
“ALEXANDER HAMILTON” at the base of the portrait, and a

quote from his proposal for the Revenue Cutter Service:
“A few armed vessels ... useful sentinels of the law.”
Obverse design seven portrays a Coast Guard
Motor Lifeboat battling the waves, while a Coast Guard
helicopter flies overhead.

The included inscription is

"UNITED STATES COAST GUARD."
Obverse design 10 features the Revenue Cutter
Massachusetts, the first cutter to enter active
service.

In the background is the Boston Lighthouse.

The Coast Guard emblem is found at the top of the
design, while the inscription “UNITED STATES COAST
GUARD” arcs across the bottom.
The Coast Guard identified this as their
number three choice, though it would need the helm and
one to two hands added.

And that is our obverse

designs.
Moving on to the reverse designs, reverse
design one depicts an MH-60 Jayhawk rescue helicopter
coming to the aid of two flood victims on a rooftop,
illustrating one of the many missions of the Coast
Guard.

The inscription “UNITED STATES COAST GUARD” is

along the top border.

There is a note that the

helicopter would need a few adjustments.
Reverse design three features a rescue swimmer
preparing to load a survivor into a rescue basket while
a Coast Guard helicopter stands by to lift them both to
safety.

A burning vessel can be seen in the

background.

The inscriptions “HONOR,” “RESPECT,” and

“DEVOTION TO DUTY” describe the Coast Guard’s core
values.
Reverse design four portrays a Coast Guard
Icebreaker driving through the ice fields in the
arctic.

A polar bear provides a geographic reference

to the area.

The Coast Guard’s core values, “HONOR,”

“RESPECT,” and “DEVOTION TO DUTY” are inscribed around
the border.

The Coast Guard identified this as a

strong choice, number one or number two.
Reverse design five depicts equipment commonly
used for search and rescue missions.

A Motor Lifeboat

is seen in rough water, while two MH-65 Dolphin
helicopters keep watch from the air.

The inscription

“SEMPER PARATUS” arcs across the bottom.
Reverse six depicts Massachusetts, the first
active duty U.S. revenue cutter, passing by a

lighthouse.

The Coast Guard Emblem is seen on the

right side of the field.

Inscriptions are “SEMPER

PARATUS,” “FIRST REVENUE CUTTER,” and “MASSACHUSETTS.”
Reverse design seven features a Morris-class
topsail schooner sailing past the Cape Henry Lighthouse
in the 1830s.

The Coast Guard emblem is at the bottom

of the design, while the inscription “SEMPER PARATUS”
is arced across the top.

The coast Guard identified

this as a strong design, either number one or number
two.
Reverse design eight alludes to the long
history of the Coast Guard’s service by depicting the
sea and a lighthouse perched on a coastal landscape in
the distance.
The central inscriptions of “WE PROTECT THE
SEA,” “WE PROTECT THE NATION FROM THREATS DELIVERED BY
THE SEA,” “WE PROTECT THE SEA ITSELF,” and “HONOR,
RESPECT, AND DEVOTION TO DUTY” summarize their mission
and core values.

The Coast Guard Emblem is centered at

the bottom of the design and is flanked by 13 stars
around the rim.
Reverse number nine features a life preserver

ring as an outer border.

The inner design is the

distinctive Coast Guard racing stripe mark, which is
found on almost all Coast Guard crafts.
The racing stripes are depicted with a
heraldic hatching tradition to indicate color.

The

horizontal stripes indicate the color blue, while the
vertical stripes indicate the color red.

The Coast

Guard emblem, which is part of the racing stripe mark,
is also in the center.
Inscribed into the life ring are the Coast
Guard’s core values, “HONOR,” “RESPECT,” and “DEVOTION
TO DUTY.”

The Coast Guard identified this as their

number three choice.
And finally, reverse 10 depicts the current
Coast Guard emblem.

And that is the reverse designs.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:

Thank you, Megan.
Before you begin, I just wanted

to note for the record that Inna Drexter is also here.
She's with the Office of Chief Counsel and is the
project counsel for this program.
MS. WASTWEET:
Okay.

Thank you for joining us.

Next, I'm going to call for technical questions

on this portfolio.

And I'm going to start with a

couple of questions of mine.

On reverse design number

seven, can you tell me more about the significance of
this ship?
MS. SULLIVAN:

Pam, can you answer that

question?
MS. BORER:

It was the -- oh, excuse me.

was the artist's choice to depict this ship.

It

I will

actually ask our subject matter expert, Bill Thiesen,
if you could speak to this particular ship and its
significance?
MR. THIESEN:

So we're looking at reverse

number seven?
MS. BORER:

Yes.

MS. SULLIVAN:
MS. BORER:

Yes.

The topsail spanner.

MS. WASTWEET:

I can rephrase my question.

As

a preference over design number six, what makes design
seven the preference?
MR. THIESEN:
minute.

Okay.

Okay.

Bear with me here a

There's a variety of historical reasons

why this class of schooner was probably one of the most

successful cutter classes in the early history of the
service.

In fact, it was the first class built.
There were between eight and 10 of these

cutters that were built and they were the backbone of
the Revenue Cutter Service for probably 20 years,
leading up to the Civil War.
And very successful, served throughout the
Revenue Cutter Service's area of responsibility, the
East Coast, the Gulf, served in combat, served in
regular Revenue Cutter duties.
And this particular rendering here is
especially accurate.

I could compare it to some of the

renderings of the cutter schooners that are not as
accurate at all.
So it's a very I think worthy portrayal of
what the Morris class revenue cutters used to look
like.
MS. WASTWEET:
helpful.

Thank you, Bill.

That's very

Are there any other technical questions on

this portfolio?

Mary?

MS. LANNIN:

I had a technical -- I had a

technical question on the obverse 04B or 04A,

depending.

It seems that the numbers on the side of

this cutter are inverted or scrambled or, you know,
computer-generated.
And so, when we do something, A, are we
allowed to put an accurate number on there which should
reflect actually this particular cutter or do the
numbers have to go or do they have to be sort of fuzzed
out for any legal reason?
MS. DREXTER:

We prefer not to identify any

particular ship, which is why you have a combination of
numbers that seem to overlap.
But one of the comments that we also had was
that we thought it looked odd the way it is drawn with
overlapping numbers.

It looks almost like a mistake,

like a typewriter double-keyed itself.
MS. LANNIN:
MS. DREXTER:

Right.
And so, yes, we identified that

as well.
MS. BORER:

It certainly could be removed if

it needed to be.
MS. LANNIN:

But if it was removed, then it

wouldn't be an accurate depiction of the ship.

So are

we allowed to put number 750 or 695 or 999 on it or
whatever?
MR. WEINMAN:
that.

There's no legal instruction on

We just, as a matter of policy, tend not to want

to feature one particular vessel to be honored on a
coin like this.
MS. LANNIN:

But you're -- but one of the

reverses that they want is an accurate depiction of one
of the early cutters.

So six or one-half dozen of the

other kind of a thing, so -MR. WEINMAN:

It's not -- to answer your

question, there's no legal restriction on this.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. THIESEN:

All right.

Thank you.

Actually, with the Morris class

cutter, there were 10 I think all together.

And

there's no real numeric or other designation for that
particular schooner.

So it doesn't necessarily depict

one over another.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. THIESEN:
MS. WASTWEET:

Okay.

Thank you.

Sure.
Any other technical questions?

In that case, Erik, can I start with you?

MR. JANSEN:

Thank you.

One of the things

that caught my attention here is there's a relative
indiscriminance between obverses and reverses here.
Why, for instance, the first six reverses we're
considering aren't obverses isn't obvious to me.
So as I try to distill out preferences for an
obverse and a reverse, you know, it seems to me that
perhaps as we go after multiple medals going forward, I
know the Mint has some aspirations to pair medals with
potentially commemoratives or merely market them to end
constituents.
I'd defer to some folks on the committee here
that might be more of an expert than I am, certainly
Donald Scarinci or Mike Moran.

But to me, medallic art

-- the obverse and the reverse, to my own
interpretation of the discipline, one kind is kind of a
verb and one side is kind of a noun.
One side, the verbal side, being the notable
activities or notable events or some signature
historical memory that defines the organization and, on
the other side, kind of a noun, the emblem, the
institution's founding or key dogmatic attributes or

whatever.
And it seems to me that that kind of guidance
may be lacking here in trying to help the artists know
what we're looking for.
More specifically, to me, of these 18 designs,
there really are only three that really to me come
under the category of reasonable reverses, and that
would be reverse eight, nine and 10.
Those kind of carry the necessary emblem or
dogma or underlying foundational ideas the organization
reminds itself of to keep its institutional memory
alive.

And then, the other 15 could interchangeably be

the verb or the active side of this coin or this medal,
rather.
So having said all of that, I look for
symbolic content.

And starting on the obverse one and

the nine obverses we have here, I look for symbolic
content.

I always like energy.
We've seen in some of the medals we've

recently done that, in these coins, one of the issues
that is so effective in denoting energy is how the wake
or the splashes are sculpted and rendered.

And in that sense, I take the combination of
energy and symbols and I think obverse one is perhaps
one of the best designs here.
It has some key symbols here of the assets
that the Coast Guard uses as well as the clear energy
of the wake.
aggressively.

You can see that boat is moving very
Yet it also has the symbolic of the

lighthouse and the helicopter.

So obverse one would be

something I would prefer.
I question the use of the emblem on the
obverse of the medal here.

That belongs on the

reverse, kind of along the construct I described.
in that sense, design three is fairly classic.

And

Again,

I would probably move to remove the emblem so it
doesn't appear on both sides.
Energetically, four is an attractive design.
But for some reason, it feels like it's asserting
itself on me more than I'm comfortable with.

So I'd

reject the art in four as just being a little too
aggressive here.
Others on the committee may disagree with me
here.

I think it's a bit of an odd angle that doesn't

contribute to the confidence and the security.

It

feels unbridled energy to me as opposed to one that
gives me comfort that they're here to protect and
inspect and rescue.
Looking to the reverse designs, I appreciate
the artistic value in reverse seven.

But to me, that

doesn't carry forth the real energetics of the
organization around protecting and inspecting and
always being ready.

It seems more picturesque than

energetic.
When I go to pick reverses in particular, I
like reverse number nine.

I think it holds

emblematically, as well as symbolically most of the
institutional elements that I think we -- if I was a
customer of this medal, I would want to see there.
So it acts as the foundation, and the other
side, the energy of the organization.
be my recommendations.
MS. WASTWEET:
Erik.

So those would

Thank you.
Thank you, Erik.

Thank you,

Tom?
MR. URAM:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

them as a grouping also.

I look at

It's tough to -- as medals go

versus coins.

A clarification.

What's the planchet

size?
MS. BORER:
MR. URAM:

A two-inch diameter.
Okay.

MS. BORER:
MR. URAM:

Two-and-a-half ounces of silver.
So mainly in proof?

MS. BORER:

Not necessarily proof.

That's

still to be worked out.
MR. URAM:

Because some of these, particularly

design 4A and 4B, in a proof could really come off that
size of a diameter planchet.

I think it would be a

really nice medal.
I do like the idea of looking at them more as
a grouping though since they are medals.

So one of my

ideas and thoughts were that number seven captures the
historic element.

And I took would remove the --

MR. JANSEN:
MR. URAM:
seven.

Reverse seven.
Reverse seven.

I'm sorry.

Reverse

I'd remove the emblem and I like that teamed up

with reverse eight actually because, being a medal,
medals tell stories and you'd have the history all
combined.

So, and I would even consider removing the
lighthouse since you would have it on reverse eight.
You know, so I guess we probably won't be going that
direction.
So I kind of like the idea of -- I do like
design one.

It has -- the stakeholder certainly has

their historic reference to the design.
However, I think I'll give some points too to
4B because I think with that size of a planchet and
done properly, I think that that could be a very
attractive medal.

And then, I would team them up

probably with eight or nine.
I do like eight because it gives the whole
caption of it.

So trying to put the old and the new in

the story together is the challenge I see when it comes
to discussing the medal itself.
You know, you want to have the history, the
tradition, yet you want to have a medal that's going to
be vibrant.

And yet, I really still get back to the

4B.
So I'll give some points to 4B and one and
also to reverse eight.

And if anyone wants to discuss

the opportunity of using seven with some modifications
with one of the three reverse eight, nine or 10 to
finish, finish it off.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. HOGE:

Thank you, Tom.

Thank you.

attractive designs here.

Robert?

I think we have some

Like Tom, I kind of favor the

idea of reverse seven as a possible obverse however.
I think this is a very attractive rendition of
this type of cutter.

If this were an obverse though,

we would certainly perhaps want to remove the Coast
Guard emblem from the water.

I think such an image, in

its simplicity, would really be kind of a beautiful
design.
Number four and 4A are very striking.
are impressive.

These

But I think they might look a little

bit too aggressive for the Coast Guard's presentation.
Number one is nice because this is like always
prepared by air, by land and by sea.

But it seems to

me that this is a very busy sort of thing.

And I'm not

sure what it would combine best with as a reverse.
In speaking of the reverses, I like number
nine, particularly because I like the use of the

heraldic symbolism for colors.

This actually has

occurred on older U.S. coins back into the very early
years and most people are unaware of the significance
of the horizontal and vertical lines.
So we don’t really need a colorized version
here.

This is actually giving it to us.

And I hope we

don’t go to colorized coins.
MR. URAM:

Why do you look at me when you say

MR. HOGE:

Well, you've been known to --

MR. URAM:

It's just the market.

MR. HOGE:

So we have -- we have some

that?

attractive possibilities here.

My favorite would be

possibly, with a few changes, reverse seven as an
obverse and reverse nine as a reverse.
Number four I think is kind of unfortunate
because you see the icebreaker here with the polar bear
whose habitat it is obviously destroying and -- thank
you.
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you, Robert.

Michael,

you want to go next?
MR. MORAN:

Thank you, Heidi.

I like number

one on the obverse.

I like -- I think it's a nice

marriage of the present to the heritage of the
organization.
I do think that the reason it's busy is
because you have U.S. Coast Guard in such a large font
across the top.

I question whether that really adds

anything to the medal.
I think you'd keep the "SEMPER PARATUS" down
below and incused down into the water and you really
can -- if you have the open sky, you can raise that
helicopter a bit and it will fill the negative space
and balance it out in a better way.
I am drawn to number four.
it's got to be done in high relief.

I like it.

But

That bow doesn't -

- the bow of the ship doesn't jump out of you.

If it's

done in coin relief, it's not going to look like it's
drawn.
I don’t care how much frost you put on the
ocean spray.

It's going to be disappointing.

bit reluctant to go there.

So I'm a

And I suspect that that

design might -- if it were modified into a guided
missile frigate or a cruiser of some sort, for the Navy

it might be a real keeper, far more appropriate than
with the Coast Guard.
I'm not in love with any of the other
obverses.

I had the same problems with the polar bear

and the icebreaker.

And some of the other rescue

scenes just appear contrived to me.
On the reverse, I think Erik said it
beautifully between noun and verb as to what you do
with these.
I do have a problem personally when you put an
inscription in as the central design theme for any coin
or medal, that being number eight.
to get my vote on that, ever, ever.

You're never going
You just won't.

We're better than that.
On the other hand, on a positive note, I think
number eight -- or I mean number nine, is brilliant.
It gets the seal there.

It gets the motto.

-- and the life preserver ring.
the Coast Guard.

It gets it

It gets the colors of

And I like the fact that it's off-

center.
The artist that did this was thinking out of
the box.

It's what I like to see.

And it's going to

get every one of my votes for the reverse.

Thank you,

Heidi.
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you, Mike.

Next, I'd

like to go to Dennis Tucker, on the phone.
MR. TUCKER:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Can you

hear me?
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. TUCKER:

Yes.
Very good.

this conversation, this dialog.

Well, I'm enjoying
I think there is a lot

of good thought that's been put into this portfolio.
And I agree with a lot of the comments that I've heard
from all of the committee members.
Erik, I think you're spot on.

I like your

description of the noun and the verb as different ways
in looking at the obverse and the reverse of any medal.
I won't go through every single design in this
portfolio.
I will just tell you my personal preference is
for number one for the obverse.

I think it has three

points that are strongly in its favor.

It depicts

active, dynamic lifesaving with the lifeboat and the
helicopter.

It depicts steady, constant, rock solid

protection and guidance.

That's with the lighthouse.

And it also has an element of history with the
Boston Lighthouse in particular, which is one of the
oldest lighthouses in the United States, as we've
discussed.

So I think that that's a very strong

contender.

And I would note too that that was a

preference of the U.S. Coast Guard.
For the reverses, I do like nine from a
graphical viewpoint.

However, I think the best

combination for obverse one would be reverse eight.
Mike, I understand what you're saying about
some of the challenges of using text as a main element
for a design.

But I feel that reverse eight does what

a medallic reverse is supposed to do.

It explains and

it clarifies and it spells out details.
Like Erik said, we have the active verb of the
obverse and we have the noun or the textual narrative
on the reverse.

I think it's perfectly appropriate --

that there's a perfectly appropriate function for a
medallic reverse.
And additionally, it depicts the Coast Guard
emblem without repeating it from obverse one.

So those

would be my two choices for the entire medal, obverse
one with reverse eight.
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Dennis.

Next, can

we go to Herman, please?
DR. VIOLA:
noun and the verb.

Thank you.

I love the idea of the

And so, I think that captures

everything we want to say.
with one and eight.

And I would have to agree

I think they really would capture

everything you want to say.
You have the historic background with the
lighthouse.
today.

You see the activity of the Coast Guard

And then, I think having an explanation of what

this all means is appropriate.
strongly for one and eight.
MS. WASTWEET:

So I would vote

Thank you.

Thank you, Herman.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Jeanne?

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to throw a little rock into this water.
MR. JANSEN:

Two adjectives.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Two adjectives?

Number

one, I do obviously agree with what Erik said about the
noun and a verb.

I think a medal does need to

complement the obverse and reverse.

It tells a story.

A medal tells a story, as opposed to a coin.

So we

have such a wonderful opportunity here to express that.
We have a large planchet and I think we can put a
little bit more information on it.
I first wanted to compliment the artists on
this portfolio because I think it's pretty exciting.
You all thought a lot about what the Coast Guard was
about and I appreciate seeing a variety of ideas.
Number four and 4A and B, for obverse, to me
is really dynamic.

And if you think about this on a

two-inch planchet, you -- I truly believe you can say
this and strike it and have it be pretty exciting.
I'm not sure I agree with the aggressiveness
of it.

I agree with the fact that it's powerful.

And

when we think about the Coast Guard, I think we need to
have a powerful statement about what is protecting our
country and our citizens.
So my first choice is 4B because it does say
something about -- you know, the text, I don’t think
I'd have to have any more on that obverse.
As far as obverse one, the preference, I think
this is pretty wonderful because it does address land,

air and sea.

And so, this would be my second choice.

And I think it's well done and I think it would say
something about the story of the Coast Guard.
On the reverse, to complement that story, for
me, I think no one has really mentioned obverse three.
But if you think about this activity, we have, you
know, a rescue, which is pretty much what the Coast
Guard is about, protection/rescue.

And we do have some

text on there, which is important.

So this would be my

complement to obverse one.
And if I were choosing obverse four, I think I
would choose reverse four.
I think it's well done.

I like -- I like that ship.

And I especially don’t think

about the cutter chopping up the environment of the
polar bear.
cutter is.

The polar bear just says this is where the
And, you know, I don’t think it's

destroying the environment as far as it's just making
its way through this area or territory.

So this would

be my choice.
I don’t really like -- sorry, Herman and those
of you who voted for number eight.
that text on there.

I don’t like all of

First of all, it's just text.

There's not any wonderful lettering.
beautiful.
font.

The text isn't

It's just -- you know, it's just a gothic

And I think that if we were going to do

something pretty exciting about having text on a medal,
then the font should say something more beautiful in
itself.
So this is the reason I think I would not
approve of this, with all of these letters, although it
does indicate what the Coast Guard is about.

So, thank

you, Madam Chair.
MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:
Jeanne on the obverse.

Thank you, Jeanne.

Mary?

Well, I'm going to agree with
My particular favorite is 4B,

however we scramble or unscramble those numbers.
When I think of the Coast Guard, I tend to
think of not sort of the passive patrolling and
looking.

I think of them helping people or ships in

trouble.

And I'd like to see that coming toward me if

I was in trouble.

It's got a lot of action.

I love

the way the bow splits the water.
I think it -- I'm sure that the artist will
correct this, but I believe that that's an absolutely

accurate description or depiction of this cutter.
just think it's a really powerful thing.

I

And I were

serving in the Coast Guard, I'd be like, yeah, that's
what we do.

And to pair that with the reverse, I think

in the series of medals that we're doing, that each of
the -MR. JANSEN:

(Sneezes.)

MS. LANNIN:

God bless you, Erik.

Each of the

reverses that we do should probably undoubtedly have
the logo.
My favorite is number nine, for the reasons
actually that Roger mentioned.

The interesting

heraldic use of the stripes I think is interesting.

I

do like the fact that it's within a life preserver.
So it's sort of the safety and taking care of
people.

And I like the fact that the actual logo

itself is slightly off-center.

So I would put my

weight behind 4B and number nine.
As a secondary one, I do like all of the
reasons that the committee members enumerated for
obverse number one, the land, sea and air part of it.
And I would still pair that with the reverse that I've

chosen.

Thank you, Madam Chair.
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you, Mary.

I'd like to look at obverse one.

Well, first,

So the kneejerk

reaction with these coin programs is to try to put
everything in there, to be inclusive.
But the more you try to be inclusive, the more
inevitably you are exclusive because someone is going
to say what about this, what about that.
included, why can't we include this?

Since this is

It's better to

pare things down to more of an exclamation point than
to try to have a collage of all the different elements.
And that exclamation point I find in obverse
four.

This is really exciting.

coins, we see so many coins.
something that's different.
attention.

Those of us who study

We're really looking for
And this catches my

It's not what's expected.

It grabs my

attention.
Now, from a technical standpoint, Mike, you
were questioning whether this would look good in a low
relief.

If this were a bottlenose kind of a ship, I

would agree with you.

But because this is very

angular, it has a very sharp center point and

distinctive plane changes on the sides, this will work
actually quite well in a low relief.

And it's going to

have -- it's going to maintain that dynamic point of
view.
And as to Erik saying that this was
aggressive, I agree with Mary and Jeanne.

If I needed

rescue, I would want some aggression in that rescue.
MS. LANNIN:

Power.

MS. WASTWEET:

Power.

And I find this really exciting

and would love to see this on a coin.

As a contrast

and a partner for this, I like reverse seven because
one of the beautiful things about coins and medals is
the ability to use two sides of the material to tell a
complete story that you wouldn't otherwise be able to
tell in just one image.
So here, we have a really strong contrast of
the technology, the advancement through history, where
we come from, where we are, the patrolling versus the
rescue.

I think this makes a great pairing.

I'd love

it if the logo was just a little larger because I think
the logo is very important.
And then, pairing these together, we can alter

the text to make more sense.

I'd like to see the

"SEMPER PARATUS" on the obverse and "COAST GUARD" on
the reverse.

That would make more sense.

I also like reverse nine.

I think that's a

really attractive, graphic depiction.
previous comments on reverse four.

I agree with

This is a good

example of intention versus the message that's
received.

I understand that the intention of the bear

is to tell you geographically where this is.
But inevitably you're going to get pushback
from people who do interpret this not as intended but
as they see it as a hot point topic of the
deterioration of the polar bear environment.

And it

starts a conversation that's off-topic from what we
want to focus on.
So I would advise going against that one.
that concludes my comments.

So

Are there any additional

comments around the table?
MR. MORAN:

Madam Chair?

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. MORAN:

Yes, Mike?

Acting chair.

I just wondered if

there ever is going to be a time when I finally

graduate from the school of Heidi.

Seriously.

I would

suggest that we, for the initial voting, unify our
voting on 4A and B and not split the votes on that one
to get a true opinion of the committee.

Then we can

come back to it.
MS. WASTWEET:
that up.

Yes.

Thank you for bringing

If we vote independently on A and B, then

we're going to divide our votes.

So vote on those

designs as if they are one design.
And then, we will -- if they rise to the top
of our list, we will then pick which one we want to
focus on and which letter.

Thank you for bringing that

up.
MR. WEINMAN:

To that end, I might note that

there are nine members present today, which means there
will be a max of 27 votes.
number.

Therefore, 14 is the magic

Keep that in mind.
As always, we encourage you to vote for as

many designs as you feel is appropriate.

You can

always deal with obverse/reverse issues by motion
later.
vote.

That becomes more difficult to do if you don’t

MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you for that.

And if

there are no further comments from around the table,
let's go ahead and tally -- or excuse me, vote on your
pages and turn them into Greg.

And we will take a

brief recess to -MR. WEINMAN:

Well, why don’t we -- let's take

a 10-minute recess.
MS. WASTWEET:

A 10-minute recess to tally

those and we will see you back in 10 minutes.
MR. WEINMAN:

Thank you.

(Whereupon, the foregoing went off the record
at 10:16 a.m., and went back on the record at
10:25 a.m.)
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:

We're back in session.
Please come take your seats.
Let's get those cats herded.
Oh, read the results.
Yes.

Let's hear the results

next.
MR. WEINMAN:

The results are obverse one

received 18 votes, which is the top vote getter.
Obverse two received three.

Obverse three received

two.

Obverse 4A and B together is the second vote

getter with 17 votes.

Well, once again, you can always

-- you can always overdo by motion what you do by
voting.

Voting is just a tool, not an end.

five and six received zero votes.
received one vote.

Obverse

Obverse seven

Obverse 10 received zero.

On the reverses, reverse one received zero.
Reverse three received two.
seven votes.
received zero.

Reverse four received

Reverse five received zero.

Reverse six

Reverse seven received 20 votes, which

is the top vote getter, but not by a lot because
reverse eight received 11 and reverse nine received 18
votes.

Reverse 10 received zero.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:
DR. VIOLA:

Do with that as you will.
Well, can I take --

MS. LANNIN:
DR. VIOLA:

Thank you, Greg.

Go ahead.

Speak.

Well, can I take my vote away from

-MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:
make a motion.

Erik?
You can always -- go ahead and

MS. WASTWEET:
DR. VIOLA:

Go ahead, Herman.

Microphone?

No, but I'm off the record.

MR. JANSEN:

You can't go off the record in

this room.
MR. WEINMAN:

You are on the -- everything we

do now is on the record.

And so, the answer is no.

This is a tool, which means you can -- you could always
make a motion.

The mere fact that the votes came in

telling this way is not itself is an end all.
DR. VIOLA:

Well --

MR. WEINMAN:

You are an independent body with

-- you can -DR. VIOLA:

Okay.

MS. WASTWEET:
way.

Well, I would like to --

Let me -- let me put it this

Since we have a close competition between two

designs, I'm going to call for a vote or a motion -MR. WEINMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:

A motion.

Make a motion first.

Can I do that?
You may.
I’m going to make a motion that

we vote to finalize the selection of the obverse based
on the top two vote getters.

Do I have a second?

DR. VIOLA:

Second.

MS. WASTWEET:

I’m going to take Herman as

second.
MR. MORAN:

Can I ask a question first, Heidi?

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. MORAN:
reverse too?

Absolutely.

Are you going to do that to the

Because I think part of what we need to

look at is pairing here.
MS. WASTWEET:

Exactly.

We'll look at

pairing, yes.
MR. MORAN:

But my question was are you going

to do that to the reverse as well.
MR. JANSEN:

I think, Mike, between you and

me, we can make it happen.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. MORAN:

You can make it happen.

Well, I hear that.

But I really

was wanting to pin Heidi down.
MS. WASTWEET:
when we get there.

You are free to make a motion

Any other discussion?

Anybody want

to make a case for any of these designs -MR. MORAN:

Well, let me put it this way.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I do -- I do have a

question.

I would like -MS. WASTWEET:
MR. MORAN:

Mike first.

Sorry.

Go ahead, Jeanne.

MS. WASTWEET:

Go ahead.

Jeanne?

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I would like to know

what the stakeholder -- what their opinion is of number
4A.
MS. WASTWEET:

After hearing our discussion?

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
discussion.

After hearing our

So if Mr. Thiesen would help us out to

understand their view of this?
MR. THIESEN:

Yeah.

I'll just make my

comments brief because I'm afraid I have to pull out
myself in a few minutes.
But I think the reason -- one of the reasons
that we felt stronger about some of the other designs
is that -- and again, I'm going to try to make this as
brief as possible -- it's a very broad, mission-based
service that has many different factions or facets to
it.
So, for example, if you look at number one, it
shows three different facets of that.

It shows our

navigation and lighthouse section, which is an
important part.
branch.

It shows aviation, which is another

And it also shows the seaborne and boats

stationed branches of the service.

So it shows a

variety of the roles and missions of the service.
I think while the number four obverse is very
compelling, there's no doubt about that, it just shows
the cutter side.

And to be honest with you, if you had

been a member of the service, even if you were a
civilian, you realize that there's different cultures
that are a part of the service that go back 200 years.
And I'm not going to say there's maybe
jealousy, but those cultures still exist.

So if you're

looking at just the cutters, then, you know, the
aviators might feel left out or the boat drivers and
small craft folks might feel left out.
So I think we were looking for more of the
multi-mission aspects of these designs.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Thank you.

I really

appreciate your comments because it helps me make my
decision.

I'm looking at this as an artist and as a

powerful design.

But I understand where your thoughts

are and I appreciate that.

So I will agree with you.

And thank you very much.
MR. THIESEN:
questions?

Sure.

My pleasure.

Any other

I'm happy to answer them before I shove off

here.
MR. JANSEN:
time.

Only to take advantage of your

We're going to have a similar discussion on a

reverse between design seven with the schooner and
design nine, which is more emblematic, I think.
Would you have any thoughts between those two,
so we can get your thoughts before you leave?
MR. THIESEN:
we liked.
myself.

So the number nine was one that

It was basically the chief historian and
I'm looking at seven.

And both seven and nine

were strong candidates for us as well.

And the number

nine is interesting because it kind of shows a little
bit of the new and the old.
You can see the kind of representation of the
racing stripe in that, which was a design that really
came into being in the 1960s under John F. Kennedy's
administration.

So that represents the modern.

then, the other emblem kind of represents the old

And

Revenue Cutter Service.
So there's the different emblems that are
perennially associated with the Coast Guard.
that.

We like

We like kind of the overall design, plus the

core values that are represented there, which are
extremely important to the service, honor, respect,
devotion, duty.

That's number nine.

Number seven, I think the chief historian and
I just felt that two things were important about the
design number seven.

One is that the cutter

represented is really an iconic image of the Revenue
Cutter Service.

That's pretty much what revenue

cutters looked like throughout the 1800s.
And that particular class was -- wouldn't be
the same as let's say the Barque Eagle or maybe if you
knew some history, the revenue cutter Bear, which was
extremely important to our history.

It really

represented an important schooner design for the
Revenue Cutter Service.

And of course you have Cape

Henry Light in the background.
So it represents two of our predecessor
services.

So it gives you that multi-mission aspect to

it as well.
seven.
that.

So that's the reason why we liked number

I think I can speak for the chief historian on
Any other questions?
MS. LANNIN:

question.

Yes.

I'd like to ask you a

You were talking about sort of the

subcultures within the Coast Guard in regard to designs
4A and 4B.

Can you tell me who you feel your audience

for this medal is?
MR. THIESEN:

So I was thinking about that a

little bit as there was discussion going on.

And I

think that if the service knew about it, that even a
lot of service members would be interested in getting
one of these, a version of one of these medals.
And I think that, like I said, I wouldn't say
there necessarily is jealousy between different
cultures within the service.
But I think that if somebody that worked at a
small boat station and their career is a boson or a
coxswain or a surf man, something like that, they might
be more interested in buying the medal if it had some
representation of the multi-mission aspect.

Of course,

they'd certainly want it if it had a small boat in it.

But I know that if the design has a cutter,
like the NSC that's depicted in number four, I think
that'd be compelling for most service members.
But I think that having gotten to know a lot
of the folks that are in these different mission sets,
that they might say, well, that's really a
representation for the cutter men.

It's not

necessarily one for me being a pilot of a helicopter or
something of that nature.
MS. LANNIN:

But if in 4B, where it says "U.S.

COAST GUARD", including "SEMPER PARATUS", if you had a
really dynamic design, wouldn't that make you pick it
up regardless if you were a helicopter pilot working
for the Coast Guard?
MR. THIESEN:

I agree.

I think that the image

is very dynamic, aggressive and compelling.

And I

think anybody who's into technology and ships and the
mission of rescuing and maybe response efforts, this
image really gives you a sense that the Coast Guard is
leaning forward to get the job done, which is something
that all Coast Guard personnel, no matter who they are,
are proud of because the Coast Guard -- I'm going to

try not to brag here -- generally is the tip of the
spear when it comes to any kind of response.
They're the first ones there to take care of
things.

And I think this image kind of shows that,

that there's a cutter on the way to try to fulfill the
mission, no matter what it is.
MS. LANNIN:

Well, thank you.

I have to say

that this is absolutely my favorite design in the
entire portfolio and a ship that I would want coming
after me.

And it would actually make a nice pairing

with the historic part, which is number seven, which
was our highest vote getter.
So it's kind of like right now and the way
that it used to be with something that's really iconic
for the Coast Guard.

So thank you very much for your

additional thoughts.
MR. THIESEN:
before I part with you.

I'll make one last comment
If you do indeed decide to go

with number four, if you had to make a decision about
the number to use, there's a possibility you could use
the first one of class, which was the Bertholf or
Waesche.

But we could find out for you.

Or maybe you'd

want to make a decision on one that was named for a
particular famous person.

All these national security

cutters were named for iconic members of the service,
Hamilton, Bertholf and Waesche, that were famous, and
Dorothy Stratton, who was probably the most famous
woman who served in World War II in the Coast Guard.
So those are all possibilities.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

So we could, through you,

get a list of the appropriate numbers for the class of
cutter.

Is that correct?
MR. THIESEN:
MS. LANNIN:

By all means, yeah.
So that is another thing for a

collector, just another little -- another little point
of interest that the number's absolutely accurate.
Thank you.
MR. THIESEN:

Absolutely.

Anything -- any

other questions at all?
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you.

Those were great

suggestions and that can certainly be decided after
this meeting also.
today.

It doesn't have to be landed on

So we appreciate those comments.

MR. THIESEN:
shove off here.

Absolutely.

And I'm going to

But if you have further questions, you

can always send them to me or to Scott Price as an
email.

We'd be happy to respond.
MS. WASTWEET:

Great.

Thanks for joining us

today.
MR. THIESEN:

All right.

MR. WEINMAN:

There's a motion on the table.

MS. WASTWEET:

Take care.

Bye-bye.

There's a motion on the table.

We will now take a vote on that.

By show of hands, who

prefers design number one?
MR. TUCKER:
MS. WASTWEET:

I do.
Well, there's only two.

Those

who prefer design number four -MR. TUCKER:

Who was the second?

MR. JANSEN:

Erik.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:

Designs -The second -- the second vote

was Erik, along with you, Dennis.
MR. TUCKER:
MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.
Those who prefer number four?
Which four?

Do we care?

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:
MS. WASTWEET:

Either.
We're going to get to that.
Five.

The count is two to

five, meaning our official recommendation is for design
number four.

And we can discuss the pairing now.

Would someone like to make any comments on the pairing?
MS. LANNIN:

Can I comment on which --

MR. TUCKER:

I would make a comment.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. TUCKER:

Go ahead.
Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would

say with obverse four being our choice for the front of
the medal, that really makes me lean more -- even more
toward reverse eight, which is narratively or verbally
inclusive of that multi-mission aspect that Mr. Thiesen
talked about.
I think we have the visual symbolism on the
obverse now and that -- but it's a very specific visual
symbolism, not as inclusive as obverse one, which means
the reverse really needs to pull a lot more weight here
and tell more about what the Coast Guard is.
Part of our audience will be current and
retired service members who will have pride of

ownership, who know what the Coast Guard is.

But we

have to remember that medals also serve a
communications role.
Medals tell people who are not in the Coast
Guard what the Coast Guard is.

And for those reasons,

I believe reverse eight is strong enough to pull that
weight.
MS. WASTWEET:

So currently design eight is

the third runner with 11 points.

Design nine has 18

points and so far the top is number seven, with 20
points.

So I'd like to focus on the top two.
MR. TUCKER:

Well, I understand that.

understand that's just -- right.

I

I think number seven

is a very naval and maritime scene.

It could be an

illustration of the Navy rather than the Coast Guard,
although it does have a lighthouse.
MS. WASTWEET:

And it does have the logo, the

emblem.
MR. TUCKER:
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:

Mm-hmm.
You can always -And we can put the lettering --

right now -- right now, if we have number four as our

obverse and number seven as the reverse, which is where
we stand right now, we've got "SEMPER PARATUS" -MS. LANNIN:
MS. WASTWEET:

On both.
-- on both sides.

So it would

make sense to -MR. TUCKER:
MS. WASTWEET:

Right.
-- go with 4A, with the "SEMPER

PARATUS" and then change the lettering on the reverse
to say "COAST GUARD".
MR. TUCKER:

Well, I don’t know if we would

need -- we do -- if we keep an emblem on the reverse in
any instance, we do have the words "UNITED STATES COAST
GUARD" already.
I don’t think it's overly repetitive to have
it also in a legend because we are only dealing with a
two-inch diameter.

So --

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. TUCKER:

I think we could --

-- would be agreeable to that,

but -MS. WASTWEET:

Jeanne?

Jeanne has some

comments.
MR. TUCKER:

-- I still think the reverse

needs to do a lot more heavy lifting.
MR. WEINMAN:

Yes.

And --

Dennis, you can always

make a motion.
MR. TUCKER:

I would make a motion to open the

voting to the top three candidates, which would be
reverse seven, reverse nine and reverse eight.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:
MS. WASTWEET:

Do I have a second?
Second.
I have a second.

Discussion?

Jeanne, do you want to comment?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

My comment was to -- on

the reverse of seven, that we could take "SEMPER
PARATUS" and put "HONOR, RESPECT, DEVOTION, DUTY" in
its place.
MS. WASTWEET:

That's a good idea.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

And then, we would have

all the text that Dennis really would like to have
without so much commotion, so many letters.
I think it would make it a cleaner design and
a very complimentary medal that talks about present and
past and then what the Coast Guard is about always.
That's my recommendation.

MS. WASTWEET:

So that could be a future

motion.

Any other comments before we vote on this

motion?

Robert?
MR. HOGE:

Madam Chairman, I would like to

reiterate my suggestion about the possibility of number
seven, which is favored by all of us, as a possible
obverse to be paired with reverse nine.
If we removed the emblem from the sea waves in
the foreground, we find the same thing on reverse nine,
which I think is a wonderful reverse.
The possibility of having a sculpted shape for
that life preserver, this could be a raised ring and
then perhaps with incused lettering, I think it would
be an extremely effective piece there.

And then, the

graphic of the colored lines indicating
horizontal/vertical differentiation.
But number seven I think is a wonderful
possible obverse.

I mean, it gives us the idea, the

flavor of the Coast Guard.

If we removed that emblem

from the waves and had that beautiful use of negative
space and the juxtaposition of the ship, the sky and
the sea in the foreground, I think we should give this

some consideration.
And number four obverse is certainly a
powerful design.
this.

We've got the combined scores on

But just think about this number seven as a

possible obverse.
"SEMPER PARATUS" is a beautiful emblem, a
beautiful signature there to be combined with the
reverse of number nine, if it didn't have the Coast
Guard emblem.

I think that this is really a

spectacular pairing if we did something like that.
MS. WASTWEET:
attractive.

Personally, I think it would be

But I think it's too historically focused,

given -MR. HOGE:

But the reverse --

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:

Yeah.
It's a separate -- so it would

be a separate motion.
MS. WASTWEET:

And it would be a separate

motion.
MR. HOGE:

Yeah.

MR. WEINMAN:
MR. HOGE:

Deal with Dennis' motion first.

Right.

MS. WASTWEET:

Any other comments before we

vote on the motion on the table?

Okay.

So the motion

on the table is we will vote for six -- excuse me,
reverse seven, eight or nine.

Can I see a call of

hands for number seven?
MR. WEINMAN:

Or actually, before you do that,

you have to accept Dennis' motion, whether or not you
want to accept -- you're going to vote on all three.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:

We had a second.
You had a second.

should -- you should take a vote.

But somebody

Do you all -- before

you vote on one or the other, do you want to vote on
all three?
That's the question on the table at the
moment.

Do you want -- in other words, do you want to

put eight into the mix is the question.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. MORAN:

That's the motion on the floor.

MR. WEINMAN:

Yeah.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. MORAN:
MR. JANSEN:

So the motion --

So take a --

The motion --

Did somebody second it?
Yes.

MR. WEINMAN:

Right.

The motion is should you

Okay.

So do we want to vote on

vote on all three.
MS. WASTWEET:

all three or do we want to stick with the highest
score?
MR. WEINMAN:
MR. TUCKER:
MS. WASTWEET:

Call for a vote.
Aye.
Those who want to vote, raise

their hand.
MR. WEINMAN:
MR. TUCKER:
MS. WASTWEET:

For all three.
Aye.
There are four ayes.

Those who

want to stick with the highest score, raise your hands.
It's a tie.
MR. WEINMAN:

Technically you would break the

tie as the chair.
MR. JANSEN:
MR. WEINMAN:
motion carries.

The chairman should -And so, therefore, Dennis'

And so, you have all three in the mix.

Now you can vote for one of the three, any one of the
three.
MS. WASTWEET:

Okay.

Thank you for that

assistance.

So we will be voting on all three.

Those

who vote for number seven, please raise your hand.
We're going to vote on the reverse designs.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. MORAN:

We're --

Between seven, eight and nine.

Seven, eight and nine.

MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:

So -So we've successfully --

MS. WASTWEET:

Yeah.

the obverse right now.

We're not talking about

We're just talking about the

reverse and we'll talk about pairings after.
We're going to vote on number seven, which is
currently the highest score, eight or nine, considering
our new obverse choice.
MR. WEINMAN:

Which should be a reverse

recommendation.
MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

This will be our reverse

recommendation.
MR. JANSEN:
MS. WASTWEET:

Can we vote for more than one?
No.

Just a simple show of

hands.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

We've got to do it now.

MS. WASTWEET:
Ready?
two.

All right.

Pressure's on.

Design number seven, raise your hands.

Only

Design number eight, raise your hands.
MR. TUCKER:

Aye.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:

Only two.
Three.

MR. JANSEN:

Four.

MS. WASTWEET:

Four.

Sorry.

Those who vote

on number nine?
MR. MORAN:

That's what happens when you have

three of them.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:
MR. MORAN:

I'm at a loss.
It's up to you, Heidi.

Not really.

MR. WEINMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:

You voted already.
I already voted.
Yeah.

So actually technically

that's -MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:

So that's three.
It's still four to four.

have a -MR. JANSEN:

A vote-off?

So

MR. WEINMAN:

We'd like to have a vote-off.

MS. WASTWEET:

Wait.

Please vote again for

design number nine -MR. TUCKER:

Wait.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

If

I -- if I could interrupt a moment, I'm at a
disadvantage because I'm not physically present.

Was

it two for reverse seven and four for reverse eight?
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. TUCKER:

That is correct.
Well, mathematically then it must

be three for nine.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:

We have some -Somebody's voting twice.

MS. WASTWEET:

Yeah.

Show hands again for

those who haven't voted.
MR. WEINMAN:
point.

Start again.

Start again.

That's a good

For number -- let's start -- all

those in favor of seven.
MS. WASTWEET:
raise your hand.
changed the vote.

All those in favor of seven,

Now we only have one.

Someone

Jeanne is -- this is interesting.

Those in favor of eight -MR. MORAN:

Don’t you love it?

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. TUCKER:

-- raise your hand .
Aye.

MS. WASTWEET:

Now we have three.

Those in

favor of nine, raise your hands -MR. JANSEN:

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Where's your vote, Herman?
DR. VIOLA:

I'll be with eight.

MR. JANSEN:

Okay.

So you've got to add

another vote on eight.
MS. LANNIN:

Yeah.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
DR. VIOLA:

Oh, no.

It's still four.

Four for number

eight.
MR. JANSEN:

Yeah.

It's still four for number

eight.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. STAFFORD:

And number nine?

No.
It's three for number eight.
It was one of nine CCAC members

for design seven, three out of nine CCACers for design
eight and five out of nine for design nine.
MR. JANSEN:

Well, clarification --

MR. WEINMAN:

This is on --

MR. JANSEN:
DR. VIOLA:

-- your vote is the one in -I'll be eight.

MR. WEINMAN:

Yeah, the answer is -- yeah,

number nine got the most votes.
MR. JANSEN:

No, I disagree.

MR. WEINMAN:

Okay.

MR. JANSEN:

With all due respect, I disagree

because Herman's vote was a late vote for eight, not an
early vote for nine.
DR. VIOLA:

And Dennis on the phone.

MR. JANSEN:

And Dennis on the phone.

had eight votes for eight.

So we

Excuse me, four votes for

eight and four votes for nine again.
MR. MORAN:

Four votes for nine.

MS. WASTWEET:

We're tied again.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. JANSEN:

We're tied again.

I think we're tied again.

MR. WEINMAN:

You're tied, you're tied.

something that maybe -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
scissors, paper?

Should we do rock,

It's

MS. WASTWEET:
DR. VIOLA:

So we're tied on --

Well, isn't the chairman supposed

to break the tie, even though she voted?
MR. WEINMAN:

You could have a -- I suggest --

I would recommend a runoff between eight and nine.
MS. WASTWEET:
nine.

A runoff between eight and

Show of hands again for eight.
MR. TUCKER:
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:

Aye.
Four.

Show of hands for nine?

There we go.
Five.

There we have it.

We

are going to change our recommendation on the reverse
designs -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

That's too bad.

Seven

should have -MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:

-- to reverse nine.
That's the way it goes.
As a pairing for four.
Any other motions?
So as a pairing then, the text

would make most sense with 4B as opposed to 4A.
-- a motion --

Can we

MS. LANNIN:

I'd like to make a -- I'll make a

motion that we choose -- of the two designs for number
four, choose number 4B because it does say "U.S. COAST
GUARD" and our purchasing pool of people will
undoubtedly be members who are not familiar with the
U.S. Coast Guard and that should be on the obverse of
the medal.
MR. JANSEN:
MS. WASTWEET:
that?

Second.
Seconded.

Can we bring it to a vote?

Any discussion on
All in -- all in

favor of the motion to adopt 4B, please raise your
hands.
MR. TUCKER:
MS. WASTWEET:
motion carries.

Aye.
Aye.

Thank you, Dennis.

So 4B is our recommendation.

The

Now,

that concludes our discussion of the U.S. Coast Guard.
We're about 15 minutes over time.
me look bad.

You guys are making

So let's move on and we will --

MR. JANSEN:
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:

Madam Chair?
Yes.
Just a point of question.

When I

heard the vote tally for the obverses and the reverses,

I was disturbed that my vote was not counted for a
write-in candidate on the obverse.

It wasn't mentioned

and it wasn't counted and that disturbs me.
MS. WASTWEET:

You can air your grievance with

the -- department.
MR. JANSEN:
MS. STAFFORD:

Thank you.
Okay.

Before I introduce the

Air Force designs, can I ask if any of our liaisons
from the Air Force are on the call?

Do we have any of

our historians from the Air Force on the call?

Okay.

U.S. AIR FORCE
MS. STAFFORD:

Although it can trace its roots

back to 1907, the Air Force officially became an
independent branch of the service in 1947.

From these

roots, the Air Force has grown into the iconic service
we know today, not only through fighter jets, but also
drone operations, satellites, rocketry and much more.
The Air Force considers itself a forwardlooking organization, always asking what’s next.

They

use the past only in the context of how it will help
them shape the future.

They also abide by three core

values: integrity first, service before self and

excellence in all we do.
Starting with the obverse designs, one and 1A
depict fighter jet pilots flying at high speeds
alongside other jets.

Design one, seen here, depicts

F-22 fighter jets and a stylized landscape below.
Included inscriptions are "U.S. AIR FORCE," "CRITICAL
TO THE PAST," and "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE."

Design 1A

features a female pilot surveying the skies.

Two F-35

fighter jets, along with a rocket, are seen in the
background.
Obverse two depicts a head-on view of an F-35
fighter jet rapidly rising skyward with the Earth below
and 13 stars overhead.
The design symbolizes the Air Force as a
forward-looking organization, building upon its past to
help shape the future and the challenges that lie
ahead.

The inscription "CRITICAL TO THE PAST,

ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE" follows the curve of the
Earth.
I should go back and note that design one was
identified as a strong design by the Air Force.
design two was identified lower on that list.

And
Here?

MS. BORER:

Yes.

MS. STAFFORD:

Okay.

Well, I would ask the

CCAC members, and I apologize, to consult the materials
in front of you.

We apparently are missing the designs

in the PowerPoint presentation.

So if you could refer

to your handouts.
Design two, as I just noted it, is one of the
lower choices of the Air Force but still identified as
one of the stronger designs.

But it's number five in

their list.
Moving on to obverse three, this design
features four F-35 jets in a precision fingertip
formation as they fly over Mount Rushmore.

The Air

Force logo is superimposed on the rock face.
Inscriptions include "UNITED STATES AIR FORCE,"
"CRITICAL TO THE PAST" and "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE."
Design four depicts an airman remotely
piloting a drone, demonstrating the superiority of the
Air Force in the areas of technology, intelligence,
surveillance and cyber and unmanned combat.
A satellite is also seen in the background.
Included inscriptions are "U.S. AIR FORCE," "CRITICAL

TO THE PAST" and "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE."

This is

listed as their fourth preference.
Designs five and 5A feature a B-2 bomber
taking off with the runway converging at the horizon as
the vast and clear open sky above symbolizes air
superiority.

Inscriptions are "CRITICAL TO THE PAST,"

"ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE" and "UNITED STATES AIR
FORCE."

5A, seen here, includes the Air Force logo.
Designs seven and eight depict a falcon and a

swift and agile -- as a swift and agile master of the
skies.
It represents the speed and maneuverability of
the Air Force in its defense of the country and its
readiness to fight when needed.

The falcon is paired

with a lightning bolt, representing the fast and
powerful strike of the Air Force.
Design seven includes the inscription "U.S.
AIR FORCE" beneath the lightning bolt.

Design eight,

seen here, includes an F-35 jet with an inscription
"UNITED STATES AIR FORCE."
Obverse 10 focuses on symbols of forwardlooking technology, alongside current Air Force

staples: a drone, satellite, a pilot and an F-35 jet.
The inscription "U.S. AIR FORCE" is included in the
design.

This was identified by our liaisons with the

Air Force as a strong design, their first choice.
Obverses 11, 11A and 12 feature F-35 jets with
graphic contrails illustrating their speed and
maneuverability.

Included inscriptions are "UNITED

STATES AIR FORCE," "CRITICAL TO THE PAST" and
"ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE."
Designs 11 and 12 include a field of stars
representing space technology and defense.

This

element, combined with the graphic contrails, creates a
stylized version of the stars and stripes in the
American flag.
This is design 11, 11A.

This design 11A was

identified by the Air Force as their third preference,
and 12.

Those are the obverse designs.
Moving on to the reverse designs, reverse one

depicts a head-on view of an F-35 jet.

In the

background, the Air Force insignia is emblazoned across
the center.

Contrails of three additional jets flying

in formation recall the spires of the Air Force

Memorial and the core values of the Air Force.
The inscription "1947" represents the year the
Air Force was established as an independent service.
The Air Force identified this as a strong preference,
number three in their list.
Reverse two features three F-35 jets flying in
formation, evoking the spires of the U.S. Air Force
Memorial and representing their three core values.

An

American flag waves behind the outstretched wings of a
bald eagle that clutches a lightning bolt in its
talons.

The inscription "1947" is also included.
Reverse three depicts four F-35 jets in

fingertip formation over a curved horizon emanating
from the inscribed date "1947".
The design represents the evolution of the
U.S. Air Force, from its inception to the present day,
with the curve of the Earth symbolizing the expanding
of operations into the frontiers of space.
additional inscription is "U.S. AIR FORCE."

The
This was

identified by our liaisons as preference number four.
Reverse four depicts members of the U.S. Air
Force honor guard in a ceremonial assembly at the Air

Force Memorial.

The memorial's three spires evoke the

image of aircraft contrails.

The inscriptions "SERVICE

BEFORE SELF," "INTEGRITY FIRST" and "EXCELLENCE IN ALL
WE DO" and "ESTABLISHED 1947" are around the outer
border.
The Air Force insignia is also included on the
lower right side.

This was identified by our liaisons

as their very, very strong preference, number one in
their list.
Reverse five features a battlefield airman in
the center of the design, while a second airman is
piloting an unmanned drone from a remote location.

A

satellite that aids in his communication with the drone
is seen in the background.
The inscription "1947" represents the year the
Air Force was established as an independent service.
This was identified by our liaison as their second
preference.
Reverse six features the outstretched wings of
an eagle framing the core values and the logo of the
U.S. Air Force.

The inscriptions "INTEGRITY FIRST,"

"SERVICE BEFORE SELF," "EXCELLENCE IN ALL WE DO" and

"ESTABLISHED 1947" round out the design.
Reverses eight and nine utilize the Air Force
logo as a focal point.

Included inscriptions are

"EXCELLENCE IN ALL WE DO," "SERVICE BEFORE SELF,"
"INTEGRITY FIRST," "CRITICAL TO THE PAST" and
"ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE."

This is reverse eight and

nine.
You'll notice that reverse eight pairs the
logo with a falcon, while nine offers a larger version
of the logo.
Reverse 10 features an unusual perspective of
the Air Force Memorial spires.

The stripes in the

upper right are evocative of aircraft contrails and
anchor the Air Force logo.

Included inscriptions are

"INTEGRITY FIRST," "SERVICE BEFORE SELF" and
"EXCELLENCE IN ALL WE DO."
Reverse 11 depicts the Air Force Thunderbirds
flying with skill and precision in the fingertip flight
formation over the Statue of Liberty.

The inscriptions

"CRITICAL TO THE PAST," "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE" are
arced around the bottom border.
Reverse 12 depicts the Air Force Memorial as

seen from the sculpture's base, looking skyward to its
three spires.

The design emphasizes the significance

of the three core values of the Air Force.

The

inscriptions "INTEGRITY FIRST," "SERVICE BEFORE SELF,"
"EXCELLENCE IN ALL WE DO," "UNITED STATES AIR FORCE"
and the date "1947" encircle the design.
And finally reverse 15 depicts the U.S. Air
Force logo.

The inscription "UNITED STATES AIR FORCE"

is seen above the logo.
Madam Chair?
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you, April.

Do we have

any technical questions before we begin our discussion?
MR. TUCKER:
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. TUCKER:

Madam Chair?
Yes, Dennis?
Thank you.

I have a question.

This is not a technical question from a manufacturing
perspective.

But it's from a language perspective.

I'm wondering where did the legend "CRITICAL TO THE
PAST," "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE" come from.
I'm not familiar with that logo or legend.
But it might just be illustrating my ignorance that I'm
not familiar with it.

MS. STAFFORD:

It was developed as

inscriptions in concert with the liaisons to
encapsulate -- to encapsulate their view of the Air
Force, specifically looking forward, the relationship
of their past with their eye on the future and
expanding technology.

So it was actually suggested by

our liaisons.
MR. TUCKER:
for this medal?

So it was developed specifically

It doesn't tie into an Air Force

communications -MS. STAFFORD:

We didn't -- we can't speak to

that, I'm afraid, Dennis.

Do we have any

representative from the Air Force on the line, our
liaisons?

I wouldn't want to give you a definitive

answer on that right now, Dennis.
But it was something that when we were asking
for inscriptions came up.

I can certainly say there

wasn't conversation around the idea that this was just
being created just for this medal.
somewhere.

So it does sit

But where it sits and how it sits, I

wouldn't want to speak to.
MR. TUCKER:

Okay.

Thank you.

MS. WASTWEET:
one and 1A.

April, I have a question about

Usually when we have a numerical addition,

it's just a variety of like we saw in the last packet,
just a change of lettering.
These designs go very different.

And I think

I heard you say that design one was a preference but 1A
was not one of the preferences.
The other way?

Am I correct in that?

1A is the preference and one is not a

preference.
MS. STAFFORD:

Well, it was actually one was

identified as a strong design.

But they actually

requested a version be created with a female pilot.
MS. WASTWEET:

So one came first and then, by

request -MS. STAFFORD:

Correct.

MS. WASTWEET:

Okay.

MS. STAFFORD:

And then, after development of

Thank you.

that design, it became their preference of their two.
MS. WASTWEET:
clarifying that.

All right.

Thank you for

Any other technical questions?

MR. JANSEN:

Follow-on to that,

demographically I find it curious that we have one,

two, three, four female pilots here and no males.

I'm

just curious.
Do we have a mix of how many female pilots
there are versus males?

Is that a -- is that an

impulse of the moment more than a historical fact?
just curious.

I'm

How do we support that?

MS. BORER:

It wasn't -- diversity if very

important to the Air Force.
MR. JANSEN:
MS. BORER:
throughout.

Right.
They specified that several times

So they often made requests to show that

in the designs that were developed and asked -requested for some of the pilots to be female and to
show the diversity throughout.
MR. JANSEN:

So it sounds like it's a

compensation request as opposed to a factual one.
MS. STAFFORD:

Well, just looking through the

portfolio, I actually count three female
representations and as many male representations.

So I

don’t know that there is a -MR. JANSEN:

Oh, I see.

When you mix obverse

and reverse categories, as you've done --

MS. STAFFORD:
MR. JANSEN:
obverses.

Yes, sir.
Okay.

I was just looking on the

Thank you.
MR. MORAN:

I thought you were counting Mount

Rushmore.
MS. WASTWEET:

So I would like to say that

this is a really strong portfolio.

I commend the Mint.

These are great designs and we're going to have a tough
conversation, just because there are so many good
choices.
So keeping that in mind, let's keep our
comments focused so we can stay on time and stay on
track.

And I'd like to start with Mary, please.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

I would like to say that

I'm very pleased that the Air Force wanted to represent
so many women, including women are in the headlines
obviously.
There are a number running for the Senate and
Congress currently.

And I don’t know if anybody saw

the little video clip this morning of a female pilot
landing a jet in England with 40 mile an hour winds
sideways.

That's good.

Anyway, I do like 1A showing the woman as a
pilot.

It seems that the visor is kind of an

interesting shape.
face.

I know it would go down over her

But it looks more futuristic to me.

looking forward.

So it's

Actually my true favorite is a real

crisp, clean one, which is number AF-05.
I guess I must be liking things coming
straight at me for medals.
incredibly powerful design.

But I think that's an
And it's also incredibly

futuristic.
Their choice of number three, which is AF-O11A, I find intriguing because I like -- I just like
the logo.

I like the way that it looks on the medal

and I think that there's going to be a really wonderful
reverse that we can pair that with.
Do you want me to talk about the reverses too?
Okay.

So my favorite reverse sort of plays off of the

contrails that were on 11.

And I in particular like

AF-R-10, which includes the logo, or AR-12, which also
includes the logo.

But it's got those three contrails.

So I think that especially 10 would be a
really wonderful match with the more generic obverse of

number AF-11A.

And that's all I have to say.

Thank

you.
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you, Mary.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Thank you.

particularly excited about this portfolio.

Jeanne?
I was
There's a

lot of information about the Air Force and I was very
happy to see so many women represented in this program.
I think it is -- for the future, I think this
just having a female voice in there says something
about where the future is going for equality.
With that in mind, I do think that A1 -- or
1A, rather -- is very powerful.

It's strong.

It has a

little bit more information than I think I would want
to see on a coin.

But this again is a medal.

So we

can have more objects in the field.
However, I have to agree with Mary.
number five with its simplicity.

I do like

It's powerful and

it's coming -- you know, I'm thinking about this sort
of matching the Coast Guard medal that we just decided
on.

If you have such a simple, powerful voice there,

this sort of complements that.
To go to the reverse, I like number four that

would complement number 1A so that we do have a
female/male medal.

It's powerful.

It's simple and it

says something about the strength of the Air Force.
However, I think that we can kind of look at
another reverse and I did like number three, reverse
three.

It has again some dynamics in it and I like the

fact that we have 1947 indicated on the medal.

Thank

you.
MS. WASTWEET:
DR. VIOLA:

Thank you, Jeanne.

Thank you.

Herman?

These are tough

choices and very fascinating designs.

And like

everyone else, it would be great to put -- show a
female in the picture.

We don’t do enough of that.

But my first choice was AF-05.
simple, I think very dramatic.
really liked was number 12.

It's crisp,

And then, the reverse I

Of course, I live in D.C.

and I see the contrails all the time when I go across
the 14th Street Bridge.
choices.

So anyhow, those are my two

Thank you.
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you, Herman.

I'd like to

go to Dennis on the phone next.
MR. WEINMAN:

Dennis, are you there?

MR. TUCKER:

Yes.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. TUCKER:

Can you hear me now?

Yes.
Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want

to -- I'll start by agreeing with my colleagues.

It's

wonderful to see the female representation in this
portfolio of designs.

And I say that as a father of a

two year, eight-month-old who I hope will be a famous
and powerful young lady someday.
The reason I was asking about the legend
"CRITICAL TO THE PAST," "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE" is I
find this to be an imperfect -- there's an imperfect
construction from a language perspective.
The United States has been around for 240
years.

The U.S. Air Force didn't exist for the first

170 of those years.

So I'm not arguing that the Air

Force was not absolutely a crucial part of America's
defense and military offense for the past 70 years.
has been.

It

It has been for the past 110 years if we

count its beginnings as part of the U.S. Army.
But saying it was critical to the past is like
saying that the Internet is critical to the past or
that the Federal Reserve is critical to the past or

that the Works Progress Administration or any other
20th century development.
very patriotic.

It's a nice sentiment.

It's

But from a language perspective, I

have problems with it.

I don’t think it works.

I was -- I'll be honest with you.

I threw out

all of the designs -- as I was looking at these, I
threw out the ones that included that legend.
My first choice for obverse actually changed
after hearing April's descriptions of our liaison's
preferences.

My first choice was obverse eight, which

shows the falcon and the jet.
it's bold.

It's symbolic.

And I like this because

It's easy to understand.

You can read it from a mile away.
And for the reverse, my first choice as the
best combination for obverse eight is reverse four.
And going back to what I said about the Coast Guard
designs, I think that this does what a medallic reverse
is supposed to do.
It explains, it clarifies and it spells out
details.

I think it's okay to have narrative text

pulling that kind of weight in a medal design.

And I

also liked it because it brings in the human element.

After listening to the liaison's preferences
though, I do like obverse 10.

And I think I'll give --

I'll give obverse 10 my greatest -- the greatest weight
in my ranking.

It's a strong design.

It has a woman.

It's forward-looking, even though some might
argue that she's technically looking to the past since
she's looking to the left.

I don’t think that's too

terribly important.
And it's got that technological kind of
futuristic aspect that Mary mentioned with that visor.
So my strongest support is going to be for obverse 10
and reverse four.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you, Dennis.

I'd like to

go to Erik next.
MR. JANSEN:

I'm frustrated that we've got 13

designs that are relatively arbitrarily listed as
obverses and 12 that are arbitrarily listed as
reverses.
I think we are a disservice to our own work
here by necessary having two buckets without really
reasons for designs being in one or the other.

I think

we'd be better served in the future if, if we aren't

going to give the artists better guidance as to what
makes an obverse versus a reverse, we just choose an
obverse and a reverse from one bucket.
I expressed my concern previously that I did a
crossover write-in last time and it was ignored in the
vote counting.

And so, that's the worst example of

what happens in this case.

The best case would be if

we had one bucket.
We could maybe do a vote pass for an obverse
and then a vote pass for a reverse.

And then, we

wouldn't have matching issues either.

So just going

forward, maybe a thought there.
I think we have symbols and context here that
are just a joy.

The graphical nature of what we're

working with here is just so fun.

And in that regard,

going through this was literally picking candy out of
an eye candy store.
So that's fun and I commend the artists for
that.

Maybe we just got lucky with the symbols that

are available for this assignment.
I'm going to weigh in with Dennis here.

It

concerns me greatly that we have a -- is that a motto,

Dennis?

"CRITICAL TO THE PAST," "ESSENTIAL," -- or an

aspiring motto?

Would that be a motto?

MR. TUCKER:

Well, motto, legend.

I'm not --

that's why I was looking -MS. WASTWEET:

Slogan.

MR. TUCKER:

-- for some clarity on that.

MR. JANSEN:

Yeah.

I'm with you.

It concerns

me greatly that we don’t understand the pedigree, the
nature of that.
And to put that on a medal when we really
can't understand where it came from I think almost puts
us in a position of not being able to make a good
choice here.

It concerns me.

MS. STAFFORD:

I'm sorry to interrupt.

I

believe we now have our liaisons with us.
MR. JANSEN:
MS. STAFFORD:

Oh, terrific.
Let me just check.

Do we have

our historians from the Air Force on the line?
DR. HARRIS:
MS. STAFFORD:

We're online, Pam.
Okay.

Thank you so much.

really appreciate you joining us.

I

Would you mind, if

it's okay, Madam Chair, for them to just really quickly

introduce themselves?
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:

Yes, please.
Yeah.

That would be very

helpful.
MS. STAFFORD:

Can you tell us who's on the

phone?
DR. HARRIS:

Dr. Bill Harris, the deputy

director of the Air Force History Program, and Dr. Jim
Malachowski, the Air Force senior historian.
MS. STAFFORD:
joining us.

Okay, wonderful.

Thank you for

Just to catch you up, we shared all of the

candidate designs and several of the CCAC members have
offered comment.
Erik Jansen, who is now speaking, is asking
some questions about the development of the inscription
"CRITICAL TO THE PAST" and "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE."
There was a question about it earlier in the
conversation and neither Pam nor I could speak to how
that inscription was born, if it's tied to a
communication plan or if it was something that was just
suggested for this medal.
DR. HARRIS:

Can you share?

It came up in conversation, so

not a motto, not an aspiring motto, just a phrase that
came up in conversation that seemed to resonate with
everyone in the room.
MS. STAFFORD:

Okay.

Thank you.

And so,

they're available for questions as we move through the
rest of the portfolio.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:

Thank you.

Erik?

So that concerns me that a casual

comment is potentially being enshrined here as a
dogmatic or historical or an organizational fact.

That

really concerns me.
A second thought -- so I want to weigh in with
Dennis on that.

So I'm frustrated here.

I know a

design has been highlighted by a number of people.
Obverse five, whether it was five or 5A.

And I'm

concerned that this is not an accurate drawing.
It's not a drawing of a plane that exists.
wants to be a B-2.

It

However, a B-2 doesn't have a

planar bottom on it like that.

And importantly, the

trailing edge on the wings is not a straight line.

So

I don’t think that's an accurate -- I don’t think that
passes the factual accuracy test.

And otherwise

graphically it's a wonderful design because it's so
dramatic and it's so -- these designs so carve out the
palette.

But I have to question again whether it's

appropriate.
For all the fun in picking these designs, my
coming in favorite was also obverse eight because I
felt like it was energetic.

I felt like it was very

simple, very straightforward, would appeal to the
energetics and the facts of an Air Force motivated
buyer of this product.
I understand the preference and the thoughts
behind obverse one.

I think it borders on being busy.

And if we were to go with one, I would want to change
the text on it to something again more appropriate.
As I go through the obverse designs, obverse
10 was something I liked.

From a pure artistic design

perspective, I loved the artist's thoughts that went
into 11, 11A and 12.

Perhaps this is a better reverse

than an obverse.
I especially liked, quite frankly, 11 with the
way the stars are treated on 12.
contrails and the swooping jet.

I like the three
If any of us have been

to an airshow, that's always an exciting moment to
watch and at the same time feel what the pilots are
experiencing as they go through a tight turn like that.
I think that's a sensation that we all share with the
pilots when we're watching an airshow.
But in terms of the artistic design, I like
the threesome of 11.
treated.

But I like the way the stars are

And I think the sculptors and the texturing

and so forth available to us make the way the stars are
treated on 12 better.
So I'm frustrated that if I were to only have
these four images, that would be obverse 10, 11, 11A
and 12, I could make a gorgeous medal out of this with
10 as the obverse and a modified 11 on the reverse.

So

what you do with that when you vote, I have no idea.
When I look at the reverse designs, I find
these were not nearly as gratifying as the obverse
portfolio.

I hear some support for reverse four.

However, I'm questioning to a casual observer
or to a buyer of this medal whether that is going to
appeal to them or not.
spires of the memorial.

I see the memorial, the curved
And perhaps due to my lack of

familiarity with it, maybe that's the defining element
of this design.

I'm not sure.

On the reverse, I'm challenged to find one
that I like the best.
like reverse 11.

It hasn't been mentioned.

It's a little busy.

I

Again, I don’t

like the text on it.
I'm at a bit of a loss.

I told you how I'd

design this medal and it's to pick two designs out of
the obverse set.

Thank you.

MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you, Erik.

I want to add

a comment based on your comments that I think what we
should do is just vote on the designs for the merit of
each one, no matter what packet it's in.
And then, we can address afterwards if we want
to change the pairing from obverse to reverse.
MR. JANSEN:

So we would change the voting to

pick your top two designs and -MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:
MS. WASTWEET:

Yeah.

Just vote.

-- we'll try to stack them up.
Vote each design on the merits

of itself and then we can use motions afterwards to
talk about pairings.

MR. WEINMAN:
MR. JANSEN:

Obverse/reverse.
Thank you for that accommodation.

I appreciate it.
MS. WASTWEET:

Obverse/reverse.

And also,

based on Dennis' comment about he had thrown out some
designs because of the text, I would say don’t throw
the baby out with the bathwater.
The way the text is on all of these, it's not
so critical to the design that we can't talk about that
as an after-effect.

But I wouldn't want to throw out a

really gorgeous design just because the text isn't
perfect.
So moving forward, Tom, please?
MR. URAM:
great designs.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

We do have

And I was trying to pair them up in

regard to air and land.

You know, how can I get the

air on one side and the land on the other side to
represent all that the Air Force does.
I do like design obverse one in the fact that
there's a lot of motion going on.

The background of

the land beneath and the way that the planes are moving
I think has a lot of motion.

I don’t like 1A at all other than the fact
that it looks too much like a poster.

It looks like a

recruiting poster to me, you know, just -- not that
it's a bad design.

It's just that I don’t think on the

coin that it -- it's just going to be too onedimensional for me.
I like design number two.

But I would

probably take out obviously what we just talked about,
"CRITICAL TO THE PAST."

I'd take that out and maybe I

see where the artist is trying to show the curve and
the linear in the look of the plane as it relates to
the Earth below.

I don’t know that it accomplishes it.

So if I'm going with my concept of air and
land, I kind of fall to number eight.

You have the

dynamics of the falcon and the lightning rod and the
plane.
And then, I would probably switch to the land
being number four, which is the stakeholder's choice as
well.

And it brings in the significance of the

appropriate legend sand logos of the Air Force.
I do like design number two as well.

However,

you would -- if we went with eight and two, you'd have

really no individuals represented.

And I think that

having the individuals somewhere on the medal is
important.

So I would go with the stakeholder's choice

of number four because it's appropriate.
lot of good designs, a lot of creativity.

There are a
It's too

bad.
In particular, like I said, I really like
number two.

It's nice and clean and it has a lot of

symbolism there.

I really would have liked that as a

two and four combination.
But keeping in the thoughts of the air and
land, I'm going to probably lean towards number eight
as the obverse and number four as the reverse.

Thank

you, Madam Chair.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. HOGE:

Thank you.

Robert?

Thank you, Madam Chair.

difficulties with a number of these designs.

I had some
First of

all -REPORTER:

Could you pull your mic closer to

you, please?
MR. HOGE:
of these designs.

I had some difficulties with some
First of all, we have images of what

are interpreted as female pilots, for instance, or
other technicians.

But, you know, really this is sort

of a matter of gender stereotyping in terms of facial
appearances.
Why isn't number 1A, for instance, a woman as
well?

Just because the guy is squinting?

that's a man instead of a woman?
this all feminine features?
a young man?

We think

And number 1A, is

Why isn't this necessarily

I mean, who's to say on this kind of

thing?
So I think that we -- whether we're selecting
for showing females or not, we need to bear in mind
that this is stereotyping in one form or another.

The

same kind of thing occurs when we try to select pieces
in our many programs that show racial stereotyping.

I

mean, this is a little bit weird also.
My favorite design of these, no one else has
mentioned yet, is obverse number two.

I think the F-35

flying over the map showing America is really kind of a
powerful image.

We've got the stars in the background.

Not that it necessarily should include the
inscription "CRITICAL TO THE PAST," "ESSENTIAL TO THE

FUTURE."

I also questioned where does this come from.

I'd never heard of this before when I saw these designs
in the package.
Number eight is a powerful design.

But I'd

question the usefulness of showing the falcon and the
jet with the lightning bolt like this.

It's a

combination of things that it's really very weird.
And some people would look at this and say,
well, that doesn't look like it's a very good
representation of an eagle.
a falcon.

Of course it isn't.

It's

And the falcon is the symbol of the Air

Force.
But not everyone knows this sort of thing.
Being from Colorado, of course I do.

Go Falcons.

But

I would think that that might be a problem issue.
I don’t want to include number three because
of its Mount Rushmore.

That's already been dealt with

in numismatics to a great extent.
I think numbers one, 1A and four are just too
busy looking, a lot of fine details.

And also, I'm not

very fond of the obverses or reverses that show the
contrails because a contrail is an extremely evanescent

thing.

I mean, this has -- it has no three-

dimensionality.
the sky.

You see this little bit of a haze in

And trying to represent this sort of thing on

a low relief sculpture I think is really just kind of a
poor idea.
The same kind of thing holds true with a
problem that I have with what are evidently these long
contrails that are part of the Air Force Memorial.

To

me, these look like big tentacles of some kind of alien
monster coming up, for instance, in number four.
This is a very militaristic-looking design.
And we have seen one form of military after another
after another in all of our coins and medals program.
I had a good friend, a retired Air Force man,
who told me, oh Robert, the air Force, that's the most
you can do in the United States as a part of the Armed
Forces without being in the military.
(Laughter.)
MS. LANNIN:
MR. HOGE:

Oh, dear.

Okay.

He was a wonderful old fellow, a

Native American too, I might add.
some difficulties with these.

So as I say, I have

The designs themselves

are quite attractive.

I find number two is probably my

favorite for an obverse, perhaps minus the inscription.
And for the reverses, no one else has
mentioned this, but number 15 is very plain, very
graphic.

It doesn't have any three-dimensionality to

it at all.

But it says what needs to be said, United

States Air Force.
And I can see that combined with obverse two,
which just simply shows the jet protecting the United
States, flying over it in the sky.

We have a little

connection to Canada and Mexico there, even Cuba.
But basically this is like it's over watching,
overlooking the United States.

I like it.

I like the

F-35 representation a bit more than the B-2
representations on number five and 5A.

And that does

it for me.
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you, Robert.

On to you,

Mike.
MR. MORAN:

Thank you, Heidi.

Well, I'm going

to join the increasing ranks here of people that do not
like the "CRITICAL TO THE PAST," "ESSENTIAL TO THE
FUTURE."

To me, it was created for the occasion.

It

has no historical precedence and it becomes very
quickly ground clutter when you look at these designs.
And regardless of what we choose for an obverse, I'll
certainly make the motion -- and it could go down in
flames -- that that be dropped.

So I won't rub it into

the ground anymore.
If we look at number two -- I guess I am going
to rub it into the ground.
design.

Number two is a good

The jet is actually rising.

stars above.

You have the

It is over the United States.

It's

protecting the United States.
Drop the "CRITICAL TO THE PAST," "ESSENTIAL TO
THE FUTURE."

It just gets in the way of what is really

there, which is a very good artistic representation and
good allegories as well.

It will get some of my votes.

Number seven, I know we're not going to choose
it.

But I just want to point it out.

That's a really

nice rendition of a falcon coming down on a prey.

I

like the way that the lightning bisects -- it doesn't
bisect, but it divides the design of the U.S. Air
Force, the inscription below it.
creative.

It's just really

And I'm going to again give it votes.

But I

do not expect it to win.
Number eight, also good.

But I still go with

number two.
Let's go over to the reverses.
like number 10.

And I really

It gets the mottos in there.

the Air Force Memorial in there.

It gets

It gets the logo in

there.
The sweep of the contrails is artistic and
will look nice.
beginning.

I was drawn to it from the very

And none of the comments, pro and con, on

the reverses has really swayed me on that.
I would also though like to make a comment on
number 15.

That's really -- I like the change in

fonts, United States versus the Air Force.

It is a

clean, simple reverse.
I don’t like it as well as number 10.
really is good.

But it

And I like the creativity the artist

used in dealing with the inscriptions there.

Thank

you, Madam Chair.
MS. WASTWEET:
a hard pick.

Thank you.

This is going to be

There's a lot of good designs here and I

want to remind everyone to vote on our system of one to

three, as three being excellent designs, two being
moderate designs, one being an okay design.

And just

rely on our system to bring the cream to the top rather
than trying to just pick your one favorite design.

I

think that's going to serve us well in this packet,
since we have so many good designs.
And I agree with other comments that a lot of
these would be served well to simply drop the "CRITICAL
TO THE PAST," "ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE" text.
Historically we have, as a committee, always preferred
less text versus more.

And I think this is a good

occasion to simplify the text.
On obverse one, I was really excited when I
saw this in my packet because we are often restricted
by what we can put on a coin because of the technical
need for division between the field, the background and
the image.
In a medal, we have a lot more leeway that we
can have more subtle things going on in the background.
And this design really utilizes that and it takes a
graphic image in the background to really add to the
dynamic angles of this design.

There's a lot of action

here, which we have asked for in the past.
I agree with Robert that this face could be,
you know, made to be androgynous.
to be male or female.

So it doesn't have

That would be an easy thing to

do and make it work for all aspects.

So I think it's a

really great, fun, dynamic design and suitable for the
palate.
Design 1A, I also loved this for the same
reasons.

Design two, just as we talked in the last

packet about that forward-facing ship that would work
well because of the angles coming forward, in the same
regard, I think this one would not work.
There's too much foreshortening with too much
mechanical detail here.

When we reduce this to the

very shallow palate, I don’t think this is going to
work well.

It looks better in the drawing.

On number five, I like the idea here.

But I

agree with Erik that the accuracy of the mechanics
could get us into trouble.
And on eight, I'm not really fond of this
design.

And I really like -- for this program, I like

the planes to be going up rather than flying down

toward the Earth.
Design 10, I think you can fit a lot onto a
medal.

And whether it's busy or not really depends on

the organization of that detail.

You can put a lot of

detail on there if it's organized and it's harmonious
and it makes sense within itself.
This one I feel is more collagey and less
organized.

And therefore, I find it more busy than,

for example, one and 1A, which has a lot going on, but
they're very organized.
Designs 11, 11A and 12 are very attractive.
But they would work better on a very small -- if we had
a small gold coin, I'd be all over these designs
because they're great and they're graphic and they're
fun.
But we have so much opportunity with what we
can do in a medal, that it's a missed opportunity to go
just with this simple graphic image, especially on an
obverse.

This would not draw me as a buyer of coins.

I would just look right past this.

I wouldn't reach

for my wallet.
On the reverses, I'm not particularly fond of

one.

I think the foreshortening again on this -- the

nose of this plane isn't going to work very well in the
shallow relief.

And I find it a little -- just a

little bit busy and disorganized.
I want to call out design number three.

I

think this is a really fun design with the angles, the
graphic additions with the planes.
artist on this.

I commend the

I'm not sure it's going to work for

this program or rise to the top.

But I want to commend

it.
Design four, I like the idea here.
for the reasons that the liaison mentioned.

I like it
I like

that the bayonet breaks the barrier as well as the
monument.

Very nice drawing, very nice design.

there's a lot going on.

Again,

But it's organized, where some

of the others are too busy.
Reverse 12, this one really appeals to me
because it's clean and simple.

But yet it's dynamic

and it still makes use of the large palate.
negative space.

And I like

Whereas design 15 I think is nice and

clean, but just crosses a line over into too simple for
my taste.

With that, is there any additional discussion?
Robert?
MR. HOGE:

Something I'd noticed here is that

-- I don’t know if this is a problem or not -- oh,
pardon me.

Something that I've noticed, I'm not sure

if it's a problem or not, is in comparison of obverse
1A with obverse 10, we have the identical portrayal of
the pilot here.
But the equipment is completely different.
You'll notice on number 10 there's a tube coming out of
the headset or the pilot's neck and we're missing the
tube, which apparently would have been for airflow, out
of the side of the facemask.

You've got a tiny tube at

the bottom.
I'm just wondering what is going on.
one is correct?

Which

On number 10, the drone looks like it

has a little something that's touching the tip of the
pilot's breast.

And this is --

MR. MORAN:
MR. HOGE:

Sexual harassment.
-- this is kind of a confused

design and I wonder which of these is more correct.
shows the same equipment as obverse one.

But 10,

1A

although it is intended to be essentially the same
image, has different equipment.

I don’t know if this

can be explained.
MS. WASTWEET:

When it comes to those very

fine technical details of equipment, I think it's best
to leave it up to the liaison to work with the Mint to
correct those.
MR. HOGE:

Could they give us a comment about

this?
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. URAM:

Yeah.

I think number one, though, is in

the air and number 10 is on the ground.

She's not --

he or she is not flying in number 10.
MR. HOGE:

Same helmet.

MR. JANSEN:
MR. URAM:

Or 1A.
One is definitely flying.

MS. STAFFORD:

So as we move through the

development of designs, we work as closely as we can
with our liaisons to give us feedback about technical
and historical accuracy.
Sometimes designs such as 1A, for example, are
late additions because we've requested like a new

composition or a new figure, a new depiction of a
figure.

And so, we're aware of some of the designs we

would have to go back in and dial in the details with
regard to accuracy or technical equipment.
Anything that is moving forward as a
recommendation though, you're correct, we would go back
to our liaisons and ensure that every piece is
absolutely accurate.

So the question for our liaisons

on the phone -MR. HOGE:

Between one and 10.

MS. STAFFORD:
MR. HOGE:

-- with regard to --

The equipment.

MS. STAFFORD:

-- the accuracy of equipment,

can you comment on 1A and 10 from the obverse
portfolio?

We know that we would have to go back and

ensure accuracy with you.

But are you able to speak to

which items would need to be looked at?
DR. HARRIS:

The helmet and mask combination

represents the F-35 pilots, as far as I'm aware.
we can have an expert look at it.

But

We did comment

earlier on the way the mask connects to the helmet.
But we can actually get someone wearing the helmet and

get specific photographs to the artist.
MR. WEINMAN:

In the interest of time, I might

recommend that we take this offline.
DR. HARRIS:

I think more of our overarching

comments, the falcon, just for everyone's background
information, represents the Air Force Academy, not the
Air Force writ large.
I know that has nothing to do with the
question at hand, but something we wanted to raise.
And we can get you those answers on the helmet in due
course.
MS. WASTWEET:
appreciated comments.

Thank you.
All right.

Those are greatly
So I'd like to call

for a vote while we go to break now for lunch.
MR. MORAN:

I take it we write in obverse two

and obverse seven.
MR. JANSEN:
appear on the ballot.
MR. TUCKER:
MR. WEINMAN:
MR. JANSEN:
MR. WEINMAN:

Yeah, and obverse two doesn't
Fifteen -What time will we reconvene?
April?

Do you want --

12:30?
-- to try to reconvene in 45

minutes?
MS. STAFFORD:

I'd just like to ask Jim and

Bill, are you able to join us at the top of the next
session if we reconvene at 12:30?
DR. HARRIS:
MS. STAFFORD:

Yeah.

We could join in at 12:30.

That would be great.

The

committee will have down-selected at that point and I
think your input would be very helpful for them to go
on to make a recommendation.
MS. WASTWEET:
DR. HARRIS:

Absolutely.
Same number and passcode?

MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

MS. STAFFORD:

Yes, sir.

DR. HARRIS:
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you so much.

Okay.
Okay.

We are on break until

12:30.
MR. WEINMAN:

We're in recess until 12:30.

(Whereupon, the foregoing went off the record
at 11:44 a.m., and went back on the record at
12:21 p.m.)
MS. WASTWEET:

First, we're going to look at

the results of the voting on the Air Force.

MR. WEINMAN:

Okay.

Ready?

Interesting

results.
MS. LANNIN:

Hang on, just a sec.

MS. STAFFORD:
MR. WEINMAN:

Are our liaisons back on?
Are our Air Force liaisons back

on the phone?
DR. HARRIS:

We are.

MR. WEINMAN:

Excellent.

Okay.

The obverse,

you want to go to obverse first, Roger?
MR. HARRIGAL:
MR. WEINMAN:

Yes.
Good.

most votes with 17 votes.
votes.

Sorry.
Obverse one received the

Obverse 1A received 10

Obverse two received seven.

received two.

Obverse four received zero.

Obverse five received 13.
zero.

Obverse three

Obverse seven received three.

received nine votes.

Obverse 5A received
Obverse eight

Obverse 10 received six votes.

Obverse 11 received six votes.

11A received one vote.

And obverse 12 received three votes.
Moving now toward to the reverses, reverse one
received zero.

Reverse two received five.

three received 11 votes.

Reverse

Reverse four, which is the

top vote getter, received 12, which is notable that it
is below the required number.
zero.

Reverse five received

Reverse six received three.

Reverse eight

received one.

Reverse nine received one.

received six.

Reverse 11 received one.

received 11 votes.

Reverse 10
Reverse 12

And reverse 15 received seven

votes.
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you, Greg.

So that means

our top picks, number one on the obverse, with a close
second -MR. WEINMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:
13.

Obverse number five.
Five is our second choice at

And then, on the reverse, we have a less than

minimum 12 votes on number four.

So if we adapt number

four -- hmm?
MS. LANNIN:

And two at 11.

Two received 11

votes.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:
MS. WASTWEET:

Right.
Yeah, and -So if we go with our top --

just automatically go with our top picks vote-wise, we
would have one paired with four.

MR. WEINMAN:

Or with five, or with obverse

five.
MR. JANSEN:

With all due respect, to make a

hard cut at 12 doesn't make sense -- 12 votes doesn't
make sense to me, with a couple of designs coming in at
11.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:

Okay.
I mean --

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:

Yeah.
-- there's a bit of a hard drop

after 11.

I don’t see any tens.

There may be a niner

in there.

But it seems to me that a hard line gets

drawn at 11, not 12.
MS. WASTWEET:

I agree.

So we really have

three close runners.
MR. JANSEN:

But there is a 10.

But it's an

offshoot of obverse one.
DR. VIOLA:
MR. JANSEN:
that.

Which one was 10?
Obverse 1A got 10 votes, as I got

So as you kind of stack up and look at where

there's a hard cut, it looks like the cut's at 11 to me
and we have five designs.

MS. WASTWEET:

Is there any discussion about -

- does anyone not -- would anyone have a problem with
number four reverse being our pick?

Is anyone opposed

to that?
MR. MORAN:

I'm not in love with it.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:

But is there any opposition?
Likewise.

DR. VIOLA:

I'm not either.

MR. MORAN:

Yeah, I would call to everybody's

mind -MS. LANNIN:

What did you -- I didn't hear

what you said, Mike.
MR. MORAN:

-- Erik's statement about nouns

and verbs.
MR. JANSEN:

And to me, reverse four could be

any military medal you want.

So to me, it isn't very

significantly apropos for Air Force.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Well, to --

MR. HOGE:

My old Air Force buddy -- (off mic)

REPORTER:

I'm sorry.

--

comment.

I couldn't hear that

MR. WEINMAN:
phone, please.
your phones.

Somebody -- somebody mute your

Everybody on the phone, please mute
Thank you.

MS. WASTWEET:

And if we were to pick a

reverse from the obverse packet, we'd be looking at
number five as having 13 votes, which is more than the
12 votes for number four reverse.

Personally I would

prefer reverse four.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:

For a reverse?

For a reverse over obverse

five.
MR. JANSEN:

Well, obverse five has got some

factual problems.
MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:
MS. WASTWEET:

I agree with you, yeah.
It's still pretty.
Yes, it is.

So if there's no

objection, we could simply go with our recommendation
and then move forward to talk about the text.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I think that's what we

should do.
MS. WASTWEET:

All right.

So would anyone

like to make a motion about the text on the obverse?

Mike?
MR. MORAN:
MR. HOGE:
MR. MORAN:

I move that we remove the text -"CRITICAL TO THE PAST" --- "CRITICAL TO THE PAST,"

"ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE" from the obverse design.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. URAM:

Second.

MR. TUCKER:

Second.

MS. WASTWEET:
Tom gets the second.

Do I have a second?

Tom's hand went up first.

So

Any discussion?

MR. JANSEN:

In the discussion, would there be

a replacement there or just creating negative space on
the design?
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. URAM:
MR. MORAN:

I like negative space.

I think that would -Same here.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I think negative space

would be great.
MR. MORAN:

I mean, we commit the same sin if

we generate something else.
MR. JANSEN:

So I personally believe

"INTEGRITY," "SERVICE" and "EXCELLENCE," if I only

abbreviate, therefore would have to be on the reverse.
MR. HOGE:

Correct.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. TUCKER:
MS. WASTWEET:

It would be.
I -- Madam Chair, that -Say again?

You broke up,

Dennis.
MR. TUCKER:

Yes.

If we do choose reverse

four as the reverse, we could move "ESTABLISHED 1947"
to the obverse.

I just wanted to throw that out as a

possibility.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. TUCKER:
bit.

Oh, that's a good idea.

It would declutter the reverse a

But we would lose some of that negative space.
MS. WASTWEET:

My personal opinion is that if

we remove that from number four, then we end up with
some blank space behind the soldier's head -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:

Right.

-- that doesn't really balance

well with the other negative spaces.
MR. TUCKER:
MS. WASTWEET:
and a second.

Okay.
All right.

So we have a motion

So let's vote on everyone in favor of

removing the text "CRITICAL TO THE FUTURE," "ESSENTIAL
TO THE," -- excuse me, "CRITICAL TO THE PAST,"
"ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE" from obverse number one, all
in favor, say aye.
(Chorus of ayes.)
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. URAM:

All opposed?

Motion carries.

Just one other technical then.

Would you drop the U.S. Air Force sign or leave it up
to them to make sure that it's balanced?
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. URAM:

I would leave it where it is.

Okay.

MS. STAFFORD:

Madam Chair?

MS. WASTWEET:

Yes?

MS. STAFFORD:

Madam Chair?

When we had

initial discussions with our liaisons about this
portfolio, regarding reverse four, we did share that it
was their very, very strong preference.

They also

discussed the possibility of having the Air Force logo
perhaps in the place of the "ESTABLISHED 1947."
I don’t -- I just wanted to share that with
the committee.

I don’t know if you want to have -- ask

the liaison to confirm if that's still their position.

But -MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you for bringing that up.

I think that that would be fine to leave up to the
workout between the Mint and the liaison, anything in
that space that keeps the balance I think will still
serve us well.
I would like to bring up the face on number
one.

I loved the fact that 1A was a female face and I

think the liaison was really liking that too.
So I would like to throw out a suggestion.
don’t know if it rises to the level of a motion.

I

But I

would like to suggest that maybe the Mint consider
making that face either androgynous or female behind
the mask.

Mary?
MS. LANNIN:

Heidi, the way that it is right

now, how do you know it's not female?
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:
mute your phone.

Exactly.

It's not much of a --

Could somebody please -- please

We're hearing background noise.

Please mute your phones.
MS. LANNIN:
woman.

Yeah.

To me, this could be a

And so, I have no problem with the art as it

is.

I would leave it.

Eyebrows?

Okay.

We're all

worried about eyebrows.
MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:

Yeah, the eyebrows are -All right.

Leave it up to the

artist's discretion to make it whichever way they -MR. URAM:

Gender-neutral.

MS. LANNIN:

Gender-neutral.

MS. WASTWEET:

Gender-neutral, or a little

more feminine, something like that.
MR. MORAN:

Why don’t we leave that as just a

critical comment -MS. WASTWEET:
MR. MORAN:

Yeah.

-- and let the artist and the Mint

deal with it?
MR. LANNIN:

Sure.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. MORAN:

I agree.

All right.

But there's a sense of how we

feel.
MS. WASTWEET:
set?

Any other discussion on this

Then we will move forward.

Next order of

business is a review of the designs for the 2021 Native
American $1 Coin Program.

April, I'll hand that over

to you.

And I think it would make sense if we looked

at both of those together.
MS. STAFFORD:

Okay.

And can I just ask our

Air Force liaisons, if you're still with us, we want to
thank you for joining us.

Certainly we will be in

touch with you after the meeting.
2021-2022 NATIVE AMERICAN $1 COIN PROGRAM
MS. STAFFORD:

Okay.

Public Law 110-82, the

Native American Dollar Coin Act, requires the secretary
of the treasury to mint and issue dollar coins in honor
of Native Americans and the important contributions
made by Indian tribes and individual Native Americans
to the development and history of the United States.
The act mandates a reverse design for these
coins with an image emblematic of an important Native
American or Native American contribution each year.
There is no longer a requirement, as there was through
the year 2016, to release these coins in chronological
order of the contribution that was being represented.
The candidate designs you will see today were
developed on the following themes: for the year 2021,
American Indians in the U.S. military service; and, for

2022, Ely S. Parker.
Per the established process, these themes were
initially developed by the National Museum of the
American Indian and then vetted by our legislative
consultants, including the Senate Committee on Indian
Affairs, the Congressional Native American Caucus of
the House of Representatives and the National Congress
of the American Indian in early 2018.
Per the legislative consultants' request, the
Mint further consulted with the Tonawanda Seneca Nation
for their input on the 2022 Ely S. Parker theme.
Artists submitted designs, which were reviewed
by experts at the National Museum of the American
Indian for technical and historic accuracy and
appropriateness and then revised before being sent to
the legislative consultants.
Again, the designs for 2022 were also reviewed
by representatives from the Tonawanda Seneca Nation.
All designs are reverses to accompany the existing
Sacagawea obverse, which includes the inscriptions
"LIBERTY" and "IN GOD WE TRUST."

We have an image here

for the committee members to reference.

Edge-incused

inscriptions include "E PLURIBUS UNUM" and the year of
issuance.

Required reverse inscriptions include

"UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" and "$1".
2021: AMERICAN INDIANS IN U.S. MILITARY SERVICE
We'll start with 2021, the American Indians in
U.S. military service.

American Indians have served in

the Armed Forces of the United States in each of our
nation’s conflicts, beginning with the American
Revolutionary War and our quest for independence from
Great Britain.
Their valor has been recognized by many
decorations, including five Medals of Honor during
World War II.

This exemplary record of military

service continues to this day.
Some of our consultants, which include the
Committee on Indian Affairs of the Senate, the
Congressional Native American Caucus of the House of
Representatives, the National Congress of American
Indians and the Smithsonian’s National Museum of the
American Indian, have noted that American Indians have
served in the U.S. military at a higher rate in
proportion to their population than any other American

ethnic group.
The candidate designs for the 2021 Native
American dollar coin, we'll start with designs one and
1A.

These designs use uniforms to represent how

American Indians in the U.S. military service spans
every era of U.S. history.
On the left side is a U.S. soldier of the
American Revolutionary War and on the right is a U.S.
soldier of the present day.

This is design one.

In

design 1A, seen here, the stripes of the U.S. flag
appear in the background.
The element that unifies the past with the
present is the tomahawk, a versatile weapon unique to
the early Native American arsenal that was passed down
and still in use by today’s American ground forces.
Additional inscriptions include “U.S.” in
design one and “AMERICAN INDIANS IN U.S. MILITARY
SERVICE” in 1A.

Design one was the second preference

of the National Congress of the American Indians.
Moving on to design two and 2A, these designs
depict three soldiers representing Native Americans who
fought in the American Revolutionary War through the

current day.

Two soldiers from the past look back,

while the modern soldier looks forward.

Five stars

represent branches of the military forces.
In 2A, seen here, the circle (often called the
sacred circle) is emblematic of many things in many
Native American cultures, with the common thread being
the living world in balance with no beginning and no
end.

Both designs feature the additional inscription

“PROUD & COURAGEOUS SERVICE OF NATIVE AMERICANS.”
Design three features an eagle, which is
highly revered and considered sacred in Native American
culture.

Here, the eagle serves as a symbol of the

values and abilities of Native American service
members, and the high regard held for that service.
Symbolic elements of five stars and a circle define the
outline of the eagle.

Included in the design is the

additional inscription “NATIVE AMERICANS IN U.S. ARMED
FORCES SINCE 1775.”
Designs four and 4A feature eagle feathers,
which were traditionally earned in battle or by
performing a brave deed.

Eagle feathers are revered

and respected, receiving the utmost care and handling,

and are to be displayed proudly in homes.

Stars

representing five branches of the U.S. military are in
the foreground, while in 4A, seen here, a circle
provides an additional reference to Native Americans.
Included in the designs is the inscription “NATIVE
AMERICANS – DISTINGUISHED MILITARY SERVICE SINCE 1775.”
Designs five and 5A show three Native
Americans in the U.S. military.

In the center, a man

is dressed and adorned as a Native American man might
have been while serving in the American Revolutionary
War.
On the left, a woman saluting wears the
uniform of the Women’s Army Air Corps of World War II
and, on the right, a man is outfitted as a modern day
Marine, carrying an M16A4 rifle.
Together, these three figures represent the
range of time periods in which Native Americans have
served their country during war.

Design five features

the additional inscription “AMERICAN INDIANS IN US
MILITARY SERVICE.”

And design 5A.

Design six features a Native American soldier
in contemporary battle gear, a Native American riding

bareback and a variety of military vehicles and
aircraft from different eras.

These elements identify

the contributions of Native Americans not only as
fighting soldiers, but also as pilots, gunners,
engineers, medics, intelligence officers and other
personnel.

In 6A, seen here, the design eliminates the

vehicles from the composition.

Included in both

designs is the additional inscription “NATIVE AMERICANS
IN MILITARY SERVICE.”
Design seven features a Native American
soldier saluting during World War I.

Included in the

design is the inscription “NATIVE AMERICAN SERVICE.”
Designs eight and nine feature a soldier
together with an eagle staff, the American Indian
equivalent of the national flag, and the United States
flag, representing the heritage, traditions and
patriotism of Native American warriors.
In design eight, seen here, the soldier
proudly salutes the eagle staff and the flag, while in
design nine, the eagle staff and the flag are held in
the soldier’s grasp.

The National Congress of American

Indians identifies design nine as its first preference.

Designs 10 and 10A depict two Native American
figures, one as an Oneida Warrior serving during the
American Revolutionary War, and the other as a
contemporary soldier currently defending our nation.
Additional inscriptions include “A TRADITION OF
SERVICE” in design 10 and “A NATIVE AMERICAN TRADITION
OF SERVICE” in 10A, seen here.
Design 11 depicts a young Native American
soldier who kneels for a moment to remember and pay
respect to his elders, those ancestors who have served
in the military to help defend the United States as
well as the great warriors who participated in
customary tribal warfare.
The war bonnet the young man wears symbolizes
this tradition and is a reminder that for many Native
Americans, modern military service is a continuation of
the warrior’s role in Native cultures.

Additional

elements include 13 stars and the inscription “HONORING
AMERICAN INDIANS IN U.S. MILITARY.”
That concludes the candidate designs for 2021.
So you want me to go on to 2022?
MS. WASTWEET:

Yes, please.

MR. TUCKER:

May I ask for a clarification?

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. TUCKER:

Go ahead, Dennis.
Could you tell me again, you

mentioned number one and number nine as being
preferences.

But I think they were preferences of two

different liaisons.

Was that right?

MS. STAFFORD:

So Dennis, we have numerous

liaisons in this program.
MR. TUCKER:
MS. STAFFORD:

Yes.
And we are sharing the feedback

that we received from any and all of those liaisons.
So specifically for design one, it was the
second preference of the National Congress of the
American Indians.

And design nine was the first

preference of the National Congress of American
Indians.
MR. TUCKER:

Okay.

So number one was choice

two and number nine was first.

Okay.

Thank you.

I

just -- I was making notes and I didn't catch that.
MR. WEINMAN:
MR. JANSEN:
MR. WEINMAN:

I think it's important -Were there preferences -This is Greg.

It's important to

note that this program doesn't have a recipient or an
affinity group like commemoratives.

These are simply

organizations that are stated -- that we consulted with
as part of the legislative requirements.

So it's a

little bit different from other programs.
MS. STAFFORD:

Okay.

So we'll go on to

sharing the candidate designs for the 2022 Native
American -MR. TUCKER:
interrupt.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry to

I would actually like to recommend that we

treat these two programs separately and not try to mash
them up into a single conversation.
I think they deserve that.

I think they're

very different themes and they each deserve individual
attention.
MR. JANSEN:

I would agree with that.

MS. WASTWEET:
Dennis.

Okay.

I will agree with you,

Let's do that.
MR. WEINMAN:

This is Greg again.

I would

just ask that please be mindful of the time and the
clock -MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

MR. WEINMAN:

-- when you give your comments

if that's what we're going to do, which is fine.

Just

be mindful of the clock.
MS. WASTWEET:

All right.

Yeah.

I was hoping

to combine them to save a little bit of time.

So if

you keep that in mind as you go through, then that will
help us stay on track today because we have a very full
packet.
So in that regard, we'll consider them
separately.

And I will go ahead to start the comments,

if there aren't any other technical questions around
the table, Erik.
MR. JANSEN:

Ron, a question on the Mint's

ability, willingness to do texturing in a circulating
coin.

I don’t mean frost.

In particular, I'm going to

talk about design number one, where we have a left and
a right side.
And one of the contrasts I'd like to draw is
could you take what's shown as kind of grayscale
texturing on the left half of this, could you treat
that the way the kind of background on a buffalo -- on
the obverse of the buffalo nickel is, where you kind of

have a rolling facet in the background?
That's probably a poor description, so that it
isn't a flat negative space like the right-hand side in
this drawing might be.
MR. HARRIGAL:

Well, certainly if it's

something the committee would want to go forward with,
we could take a look at it.

I mean, we have textured

water and polished it and things like that.

It takes a

little extra work on the die finishing -MR. JANSEN:
MR. HARRIGAL:
done that.

Yeah.
-- side of it.

But we have

And you go back to some of the -- like the

first America the Beautiful quarter, in Arkansas, in
the door, we did texture of the background around the
door and things like that.

So there are things we can

do.
MR. JANSEN:
circulating.

This is a -- this is a

This isn't like the innovation dollars

that are one, two, three million kind of.
MR. HARRIGAL:

It's the same --

MS. WASTWEET:

The circulation coins that

don’t circulate.

MR. JANSEN:

Thank you.

MR. TUCKER:

These are not really for

circulation.
MR. JANSEN:

Yeah.

MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you.

Herman, can you start us off,

please?
DR. VIOLA:

Thank you.

I'm pleased to speak

on behalf of this -MR. WEINMAN:
MR. JANSEN:
DR. VIOLA:

Microphone.
Push the button.
Is it on?

MR. WEINMAN:
DR. VIOLA:

Okay.

There you go.
Can you hear me?

Yes.
Okay.

on behalf of this coin.

I'm very pleased to speak

It is extremely important,

especially today, because Congress has authorized that
the Museum of the American Indian build a memorial on
the Mall in honor of American Indian veterans.
And a design has been selected.

This is an

extremely important moment for American Indians.

And

just everyone realizes why this is so important.
Indians are about the most patriotic people in
American history.

Distinguished military service began

with the American Revolution.

They have been in

uniform in every conflict to the present time.

For

example, in World War II, if all Americans had
volunteered for the military at the rate Indians did,
there would have been no need for a draft.
Some tribes gave almost all their manpower and
their female power.
small.

And some of these tribes are very

But they went in.

World War I, when Indians

weren't even citizens, something like 10,000 Indians
volunteered to fight overseas.

And they made

horrendous sacrifices.
The U.S. Expeditionary Force suffered 1
percent casualties.
percent.

But the Indians suffered 5

And because they were always at the

forefront, they were trying to live up to their warrior
traditions.
For example, one family, the Decorah family
from Wisconsin, Foster Decorah went in with his three
sons and he and one of his sons were killed on the same
day.

These are the stories that we know nothing about

really in our textbooks or whatever.
But it's so important.

And that's why I'm so

pleased to see that we're finally going to help
recognize their contribution and that's -- and the
designs we have here are really -- some of them are
really quite good.

But again, some of them, we want to

be careful about.
For example, number 11, that's just a typical
stereotypical Indian.
war bonnets like that.

Indians -- relatively few wore
And so, they would not be very

happy to see that.
The number nine, with the eagle staff and the
flag, that is very prominent today in Indian country.
When you go to an Indian reservation and you go to a
powwow or you go to a gathering, they'll have their
eagle staff and the American flag.

It is just basic to

their culture.
Now, for me, the one I like best is number 4A.
And these are the eagle feathers.

You have the circle,

which is really a very important cultural concept.

And

in fact, the design that we're going to have for the
memorial incorporates that key design.
And the eagle feather is so important to this
very day in Indian country and especially in the

military.

You'd be amazed how many soldiers carry

eagle feathers hidden in their uniform.
For example, I'll just tell one story.

Joe

Medicine Crow, he died last year at the age of 102.

He

was a World War II, just comes from a long line of
warrior people.

He adopted me about 30 years ago.

And he confided with me that when he was in
World War II, he had an eagle feather always in his
helmet.

And he said it saved his life.
He said, for example, he was walking along a

hillside.

An artillery shell came.

It knocked him off

the hill and he rolled all the way down the hill.
lost his rifle.
backpack.

He lost his helmet.

He

He lost his

But he didn't get a scratch.
And he said, if I started crawling back up

that hill, I got my backpack, I got my rifle, I got my
helmet and the eagle feather was still in there.

And

he said, then, when I came home, I gave the eagle
feather to one of my Crow colleagues who was a pilot.
And he wore that eagle feather on his bombing runs and
he never got hurt.
And his grandson -- grandnephew, Carson Walks

Over Ice, Vietnam, he always had an eagle feather.

And

he put it in the netting around his helmet and it was
in his helmet.

And he said that kept me safe.

And he

said that was -- I was an Indian and they saw me in
combat.
So anyhow, this goes on constantly.

Indians

won't ever reveal that they keep all these things.
they do.

But

And it's a spiritual protector.
And in case something -- say the worse happens

and they do die, at least the eagle feather then will
escort them to the afterlife because the eagle is the
mediator between heaven and earth.

And so, they feel

they're protected on all fronts, here or in the
hereafter.
So anyhow, that's why I would support voting
for number 4A.

It has the message on there,

"DISTINGUISHED MILITARY SERVICE," which then really
doesn't need any explanation because they really, to
this day, by ethnicity, Indians are the highest
represented group in our military forces at the moment.
And it's going to continue as long as our
country is still having all these conflicts.

Thank

you.
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you, Herman.

MS. STAFFORD:

Madam Chair?

I was just going

to say we may have Jim Adams from the National Museum
of the American Museum also on the phone.
wanted to check.
worked.

He was one of the folks with who we

Jim, are you on the line?

to check.

I just

Okay.

Just wanted

Thank you.
MS. WASTWEET:

Let's go to Dennis on the

phone.
MR. TUCKER:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

thank you, Herman, for that commentary.

And

As I was

looking through this portfolio, I was struck by the
fact that some of the designs are symbolic and some of
them are figural.

So I have favorites in each of those

categories.
And Herman, like you, I was really drawn to
the symbolism in four and 4A with the feathers.
the symbolism.

I like

But I wonder if it might be a better

design symbolically if the stars and feathers are made
to intertwine rather than the stars being set on top of
the feathers.

In my mind, this would reinforce the concept
of Native Americans being part of the military and the
military being part of the Native American experience,
a combination, not one element on top of the other.
To me, one on top of the other implies
dominance or conquest rather than collaboration and
inclusion.

And I think back to Heidi's comment earlier

this morning about the artist's intention versus the
viewer's interpretation.
So this might be a question for Herman.
this a significant concern?

Is

And also a question for

Ron, would there be any technical challenges to having
some of the stars appear to be behind the feathers and
that kind of construction in the design.
For the figural choices, I actually liked
number two.

I think it's an organized composition.

It's detailed.

But it's not overly busy.

And we have seen this level of detail on other
Native American dollar coins, which are just an inch in
diameter.

The 2013 treaty with the Delawares and the

2018 Jim Thorpe dollars have fine detail in the
compositions.

But the coins are still very readable, even
though they do have that small diameter.

After hearing

Herman's commentary, I think my greatest weight will go
to either four or 4A, I guess 4A because it includes
the circle design.
And Herman, if you would, just -- a moment on
that idea of the stars and the feathers, one being on
top of the other or whether they should be intertwined
or is that not significant.
DR. VIOLA:

Okay.

Let's see.

I'm not sure if

this is working.
MR. JANSEN:
DR. VIOLA:

There you go.
Okay.

MS. WASTWEET:
first?

Dennis, if I could jump in

I want to -- in my opinion, that would be too

much of an artistic change from what we have to
intertwine the feathers and the stars.
While I like the idea and it sounds like a
simple thing to do, artistically there's still a lot of
variables there and I feel that would be too much
design by committee to really make that happen.
And as to your other question to Ron, he

stepped out of the room for a moment.

So we'll put

that on hold.
MR. TUCKER:

Okay.

MS. WASTWEET:

Herman, do you want to add

something?
DR. VIOLA:

Okay.

thought of intertwining.
designer.

Well, I really like the

But, I mean, I'm not a

I'm not an engraver.

I don’t think Indians

would be that concerned.
But I do think your point is well-taken, to
integrate the stars with the feathers would be quite
nice.

But again, I think our chairperson ruled.

We

have to hear what she has to say and abide by it.
Thank you.
MR. TUCKER:
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. TUCKER:
MS. WASTWEET:

Thanks.
Is that all you have, Dennis?
Yes.

Thank you.

All right.

Thank you, Dennis.

I'm going to go to Mary next.
MS. LANNIN:

In regard to 4A, I have no

problem with the stars on top of the feathers.

To me,

rather than showing dominance, it's the underlying

strength of Indians in the military.

So we leave the

stars the way they are and it's a nice, clean design.
We have the circle.

It's great.

When Ron comes back, I would like someone to
speak about design number nine, which apparently was
their favorite.
Are we going to be able to pull off all those
layers and textures at the same time?
this design very much.

I really like

But the simplicity of 4A I

think is pulling me in that particular direction.

And

that's all I have to say.
MS. WASTWEET:

I can speak to that a little

bit -Ms. LANNIN:
MS. WASTWEET:

Okay.

Good.

-- from the artistic sculptural

standpoint on design nine, right, is it?

As far as the

layering, I think that's no problem for this scale.
With the flag behind the soldier, because it
has so much texture, considering the finish of the
dollar coin and the size and the shallowness, it would
get rather busy.
So I would suggest that the Mint smooth the

flag considerably, which is more of a texture change,
not so much of the artistic change.

The lines would

all stay in the same place.
But it would help to define the soldier with
the flag much more faded behind him.

And I think

that's a quite easy fix and we don’t have to throw the
design out just because the textures aren't working.
MS. LANNIN:

All right.

MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you.

Jeanne, can you go next?

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Thank you.

intrigued with number one, obverse one.
an interesting concept.

I was very

I think it's

I think it would -- it joins -

- it joins the past and the present.

And I would like

to see this produced because it is innovative.

It's

very different.
However, I do agree with Herman and Mary with
number 4A.

It is simple.

It's direct.

But I think

number one gives us a little bit more of imagination.
And for the reverse -MR. JANSEN:
MR. MORAN:

There isn't a reverse.
There is no reverse.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Oh.

That is the

reverse.
other.

Sorry.

So for me, it's either one or the

Thank you.
MS. WASTWEET:

Jeanne.

Thank you, Jeanne.

Thank you,

Erik, will you go next?
MR. JANSEN:

I'm going to focus on design

number one and design number four.

I thought design

number one was just incredibly clever.

However, as I

worked with it visually, I just wanted more contrast.
I wanted to be hit harder with this coin because
reduced to the size of the brass palate here, I'm
afraid that it's just going to look like a portrait.
And we have a two-headed coin then, blah, blah, blah.
So I began to ask myself how I could get more
contrast, hence my question of Ron early on to add some
background to change the negative space on the left and
even potentially put the one side on positive relief
and the other side in negative relief.
Now, I don’t -- that's not quite the same as
incused.

But we do know the history of the Indian

golds, which were the only incused coin every produced.
I may be getting too numismatically geeky here, but -MS. LANNIN:

You said it.

MR. JANSEN:

But to the extent that the

committee members like design number one, I don’t think
1A works as well.

I think it's very busy.

But if one

would become our preference, I would recommend we
explore those kind of recommendations in a modifying
motion.
Otherwise, I'm going to lean heavily into 4A.
Now, did we not have a similar kind of feather motif
when we did a prior Native American coin?

I think it

was the -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. JANSEN:

Astronauts.

It was the astronauts.

Thank you

very much.
MR. TUCKER:

The space, yeah.

MR. JANSEN:

Yeah.

choosing in that design?

Now, what did we end up

Do we have some confusion

here?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. JANSEN:

We did have a --

Did we not have a feather and

stars and planets, I think?

Do we have confusion on

the issue?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

No, because this is a

dollar.
MR. JANSEN:

No, I understand.

MR. VASQUEZ:

I understand.

The design for the space coin

does not use the feather motif.
MR. JANSEN:

We went on a different --

MR. VASQUEZ:
MR. JANSEN:

Correct.
Okay.

So it becomes a nonissue.

Okay.

I’m going to go with 4A as my other thought

here.

I liked three.

But I think given the need for a

circle to coordinate with what Herman called out and to
respect the size of the palate here, the feather and
the stars just works powerfully.
I would question whether the design is too
text busy when we reduce it to that size.

And I'd

invite the committee to kind of think about that, not
that I have a recommendation as to how to shorten the
text.

But the text might need some issues.
Design number nine, I think in the proof

version of this, would just become a frosty blob.
that concerns me quite a lot.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. URAM:

And

Thank you.

Thank you, Erik.

Tom, please?

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Actually,

when I looked back on the whole series of the
Sacagawea, continuing on with the history of what the
series is about, we actually used the feathers in 2016
by themselves with the helmet on top.
And so, therefore, I leaned away from that for
that specific reason, although I like them, Herman, and
I understand that we've used it.
So if we want to continue on with an
additional aspect of their role in the history, I was
leaning more towards the creativity of number one.
I agree 1A was too much.

And

But I thought number one

would do very well.
And I also thought that number two, with the
looking back and looking forward, had some options and
possibilities.

And also, I did like number nine.

And

I think that it would be -- you know, we've run into
frosting problems before and continue to.

And we

always bring that up.
But it's possible on that planchet that they
would be able to -- being that it's gold, that they
would be able to create the lines that are needed
besides the planchet and with them being more aware.

But if it's the stakeholders' choice, I really
like the creativity of number one.
super.

I thought it was

But I have no problem supporting number nine as

the top choice.
And once again, the only reason why I would
not go with the feathers is because it's been used and
it was used very specifically in 2016 as the main
element of that coin.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

Mary has a comment.

I'd like to make a -- I'd like to

make a comment about the use of the feather.
Substitute the word feather for United States flag and
say, oh, we've already used the flag twice.

Okay.

That is their symbol and that's really important to
them.

And this is a Native American dollar.

problem at all with the feathers.
MR. URAM:

I have no

So --

I'm just looking at it as the whole

series.
MS. LANNIN:

Right.

do we have on our coins.

But again, how many flags

It's sort of -- to me, it's

sort of the same thing.
So it's meaningful to them and it has the

bonus of having the circle, which is going to match the
monument that is being created.

So that's my dollars'

worth of information.
MS. WASTWEET:

Good comments on both sides.

To you, Robert.
MR. HOGE:
designs.

Thank you, Heidi.

I like these

Number one, though, I have a problem with.

When I first saw it, I thought that's a funny looking
outfit.
I don’t think this would work when it's the
size of a coin, having the combined antique and modern
representations.
a tomahawk.

And also, the tomahawk is not really

It's some kind of modern tool and yet it's

on the side of the 18th century type of warrior.

So

anyway, I'm really not in favor of that one.
Number four and 4A with the eagle feathers,
these are attractive and I understand the symbolism.

I

don’t really like the combination though of the
completely graphic stars and the extremely detailed
exacting scientific representation of the feathers in
combination with this stippled background I don’t think
works all that well with these.

I like the idea of having a circle.
some attractive design here.

We have

I think number eight --

or number nine, excuse me, while an attractive and
fairly powerful thing, is really just too busy and I
don’t like all these different layers.

I think on a

coin it's going to look like a lot of mush.
Something that nobody has mentioned is the
images from number 10 and number 10A.
like number 10A.

I particularly

I like the idea that we see warriors

that are clearly represented as being centuries apart
in time.
I don’t think that the words "NATIVE AMERICAN
TRADITION OF SERVICE" are really necessary here because
this is, after all, the Native American series of
dollars.

You could simply say "TRADITION OF SERVICE"

and this gets the point across very well.
I like the fact that they're both in the
gesturing of looking.

When you think of Indian

warriors, you think of scouts and guides.

I was a

member of the Indian Guides when I was a little boy.
And this is -- this is kind of fun.
This is an extremely accurate representation

of the good use of negative space.

We look at the

weapons, the modern day gun and the 18th century rifle.
These are beautifully executed.
We could add eagle feathers into this if we
wanted to, perhaps in the headdress of the 18th century
warrior.

Perhaps the modern trooper could have an

eagle feather protruding from his helmet.
I mean, there are some real possibilities here
that I would like to see included.

So this is really

my favorite design of all of these, number 10A.

Thank

you.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. MORAN:

Thank you, Robert.

Mike?

I'm bringing up the rear.

going to muddy it, not much though.

I'm

Like Robert, I

liked number 10 and 10A originally and was undecided
between the two.
I went over to the Museum of the Native
American Indian -- watch that name -- yesterday.

And

there's a beautiful headdress there, just eagle
feathers all the way down to the floor on display.

And

that was the first time I was really truly aware that
these feathers were awarded for not just acts of

bravery but also acts of wisdom and kindness.

And they

are very integral to the culture of the Native
Americans.
I chewed on that last night and basically
changed my opinion.

I am with Mary.

can get too many feathers.

I don’t think we

And I doesn't bother me

that we choose number four or 4A.

I think we should

choose 4A because of the circle.
I would make one suggestion in terms of what
is supreme.

We were talking about intertwining the

feathers and the stars.

Just make the circle itself

supreme and let the feathers and the stars be
underneath it.
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you, Mike.

comments all around the table.

Great

I agree with Jeanne.

Number one is extremely creative and innovative and ire
ally love it.

I think it would be great on a larger

palate.
On the very shallow and small one dollar coin,
I think it'll be hard to distinguish in the hand what's
going on.
the artist.

But I definitely want to call out kudos to
I think this was a great attempt.

On four and 4A, again, they're so similar.

I

want to caution you to not vote on them separately, but
vote on them as if they are one design, although it
sounds like we're leaning toward 4A for the reasons
previously stated.
Design nine, as I stated before, if we smooth
out that flag, this could possibly work.

But with all

that texture in there, it absolutely would just become
a very confusing mess on the coin.
changed in that way.

So it'd have to be

But it's a really good design.

I

like it.
And then, I confess that I hadn't really
looked at 10A before, Robert, you really got me looking
at this again.

And I do like this.

And I really love

the way the A is between the feet.
The problem here is when you depict a certain
tribe, again, when you try to include one, you
inevitably exclude others.

Herman, what's your opinion

about using such a specific dress?
DR. VIOLA:
correct.

Well, I have to say you're

When you make it too specific -- just like we

were talking about having a horse in the picture.

Well, how many Indians were really horse people?

So

that's why the feathers are kind of generic and they
all can identify with it whereas, you know, in the
American Revolution, where this is going back, there
were tribes all along the East Coast.
And they weren't like the Oneidas.

They were

Cherokees or people all the way down and they all
dressed differently.

So it's very tough when you --

MS. WASTWEET:
DR. VIOLA:

A very touchy subject.

Yeah.

MS. WASTWEET:

Okay.

Thank you.

comments before we go to our voting page?
MR. HOGE:

One other point.

Any other
Robert?

I don’t know that

many people would be able to recognize the 18th century
Indian as being a specific tribe or not.
Herman probably could and maybe there's some
Natives of the different tribes who might.

But I think

it just looks like an 18th century Indian whereas the
fellow on the right, is he of a particular tribe?

I

don’t know.
DR. VIOLA:
MR. HOGE:

No, he's got -He's got a military crewcut.

But

that could be interpreted as being sort of a modern day
Mohawk or something.
DR. VIOLA:

I wouldn't even think he was an

Indian myself.
MR. HOGE:

Well, you don’t necessarily have to

think of that about the fellow on the left either.
Just because his head is shaved and he has a little -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. HOGE:

Yeah.

Right.

But anyhow, I mean, I do especially

like this design.
MS. WASTWEET:

All right.

Thank you.

Let's

vote and take a brief recess while we calculate the -MS. STAFFORD:

Madam Chair?

MS. WASTWEET:

Yes?

MS. STAFFORD:

In the interest of time, I

could begin reading the -- introducing the designs for
the other portfolio while we're calculating.
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:

We can do that.
We have five minutes before

we're supposed to start the next one.
for five minutes.
MS. STAFFORD:

Okay.

So let's recess

(Whereupon, the foregoing went off the record
at 1:21 p.m., and went back on the record at
1:23 p.m.)
MR. MORAN:

Yeah, and April?

MS. STAFFORD:
MR. MORAN:

Yes, sir?

Can we -- can we convey to the

artist that that eagle's head was really good?

I like

it better than the one that we chose for the gold coin.
(Whereupon, the foregoing went off the record
at 1:24 p.m., and went back on the record at
1:28 p.m.)
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:
received 11 votes.

Okay.

Ready?

Ready.
Okay.

Design number one

Design 1A, zero.

Design two

received seven votes.

2A received five.

Design three

received three votes.

Design four received 12 votes.

Design 4A received 17 votes.
Hold on.
number.
zero.

Sorry, which is tied for the highest

Design five received three.
6A, one.

Seven, zero.

votes -- I'm sorry, zero votes.

5A, zero.

Six,

Design eight, seven
Design nine received

seven votes.

Design --

MS. LANNIN:

Seven?

MR. WEINMAN:
votes.

Design nine received seven

Design 10 received four votes.

received 17 votes.

10A also

Eleven received zero votes.

So you

are tied between 10A -MS. LANNIN:

Robert, you were so eloquent.

MR. WEINMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:

-- and 4A.
Thank you, Greg.

So we'll --

The A's have it.

MS. WASTWEET:

-- do a tiebreaker vote.

Does

anyone want to make a case for one or the other?
Robert?
MR. HOGE:

I'd like to make a suggestion.

Everyone knows I liked number 10A.

But this one has

such a great deal of nice negative space.
I'm wondering if you couldn't have a sacred
circle perhaps added as a sort of a border around the
entire thing, just within the rim and that would add
another element that would be nice, addressing Herman's
discussion.
MR. JANSEN:

I'm fearful that a sacred circle

destroys their look to the horizon.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. HOGE:

I agree with Erik.
I wouldn't say it destroys it.

It

gives them something to look at.
MR. JANSEN:
DR. VIOLA:

It restrains it.
What about putting the eagle's

feather on the helmet, as someone -- as Heidi
mentioned?
MR. JANSEN:

Why not?

MR. WEINMAN:

Make a motion.

MS. WASTWEET:

We could make a motion for

that.
MR. MORAN:

Herman, they're waiting for you to

make a motion.
DR. VIOLA:

I make a motion we add an eagle

feather to the helmet.
MR. MORAN:

Second.

MR. WEINMAN:
MR. JANSEN:
MS. WASTWEET:

And recommend this design?
And -Yeah, if -- do you want to add

to your motion that we make this our recommendation?
MR. JANSEN:

-- you like it better than 4A?

DR. VIOLA:

I think so.

MR. JANSEN:

Okay.

MS. WASTWEET:

Herman's leaning away from your

original?
DR. VIOLA:

Well, because once I saw the coin

that's in that series for 2016 -MS. WASTWEET:
DR. VIOLA:

You thought it was too similar?

It was really very similar.

MS. WASTWEET:

Okay.

Well, you carry a little

weight in this department, so -DR. VIOLA:

But I mean, I don’t -- you know,

my own preference would be 4A.

But the idea of putting

the eagle feather on the helmet, which is what a lot of
Indians do today -MS. LANNIN:
DR. VIOLA:

On the outside of the helmet?
On the outside.

MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. JANSEN:

It'd be perfect.

MS. WASTWEET:

It's going to be really tiny,

considering the size of the -DR. VIOLA:

I know.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

That's the problem.
It would be very tiny.

MS. WASTWEET:

Very, very tiny.

It's not

going to show up.
MR. JANSEN:

It's kind of like a Native

American privy.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. HOGE:
MS. LANNIN:

Yeah.
Yeah, it's a personal thing.
And so, that's the curved top of

the helmet or it's not upside-down, is it?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

No, that's the curved

top.
MR. JANSEN:
DR. VIOLA:

That's funny.
You always have to tie it to the

side so it's kind of off -MS. LANNIN:

So if the feather is hanging from

that strap, is that what you're suggesting?
DR. VIOLA:

Yeah, something like that.

It

would not be sticking straight up.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

It wouldn't be sticking

-MS. LANNIN:

It wouldn't be sticking straight

up?
DR. VIOLA:

No.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

It wouldn't be sticking

-- it would be hanging -MS. LANNIN:

Oh, see, I would have thought it

was like a -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

It would be hanging.

So

that -DR. VIOLA:

Like they do it on their hair.

They have it hanging down.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. JANSEN:

Yeah, hanging down.

So it hands below the virtual

horizon line here.
DR. VIOLA:

Yeah, kind of.

it touching the ground.

But you don’t want

That's another bad no-no.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

But if it's -- if it's

an eagle feather, this is going to be a large feather.
So it's not going to be too unidentifiable, right?
MS. WASTWEET:

It's still going to be really

tiny.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

It will still be small.

But I would think it would be the size of his boot.
MR. JANSEN:

Yeah.

diameter of the helmet or so.

It's going to be the

DR. VIOLA:

Or maybe I just ought to go back

to 4A.
(Laughter.)
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. TUCKER:

You know, when I -Well, it's 10A --

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. TUCKER:

When I -Could it be hanging from his pack

or someplace else other than the helmet?
DR. VIOLA:

Definitely.

MS. WASTWEET:

There's a lot of variables

there when we start adding on it.

When I think about

holding these dollar coins in my hand and what shows up
and what doesn't, I really lean towards the bold,
simple designs.
And I still come back to, you know, the fact
that we are representing here a very specific costume
of a very specific tribe.

And personally I still lean

towards the two feathers with the stars.

So there's --

do you want to hold your motion or -DR. VIOLA:

No, I'll pull -- I'll pull my

motion.
MR. WEINMAN:

Again, there is no obligation to

make -- you can -- to have a distinct -- your vote
speaks for itself, if that's how you want to leave it.
You could -- yeah.
MS. WASTWEET:

So we don’t have to break our

tie if we don’t want to, I'm told.
MR. JANSEN:

Erik?

I'll make a motion to recommend

we adopt 4A.
MS. LANNIN:

I'll second.

MS. WASTWEET:
second.
faces.

Okay.

We have a motion and a

Any discussion of that?
Let's vote on the motion.

I'm seeing quiet
All in favor, aye.

(Chorus of ayes.)
MR. TUCKER:

Aye.

MS. WASTWEET:

Opposed?

Two opposed.

Motion

carries to recommend design 4A as our official
recommendation.
MR. URAM:

We held our ground.

We lost the

war, but we held our ground.
(Cross-talk.)
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. JANSEN:
misery.

Can I -- can we --

-- had to put you out of your

(Cross-talk.)
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

-- recommend that we do

something to the background -(Cross-talk.)
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
-- excuse me?

Hello?

Yes, I have -- I have a

Excuse me.

I would like to

recommend that we suggest to Ron that the background of
4A be frosted or whatever he wants to do so it would
represent the background of four.
MS. WASTWEET:

My opinion is that I would

rather the texture of the feathers carry the attention
because if we texture the background, it's going to
blend more with the -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Correct.

But it would

also make these stars pop more than just having the
background the same, unless -- I'm thinking it has to
do something with the background behind the stars.
And I agree.
prominent.

I agree the feathers should be

But I think -- I think if it's done softly

enough, it would give it some life, a little more life.
MS. WASTWEET:

I think the stars will pop

enough just because they're bold.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
raised.

They're going to be

They're going to be raised.
MS. WASTWEET:

And solid.

And I'm more

concerned with losing the feathers than the stars.
MR. JANSEN:

Right.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Okay.

Well, that's my

suggestion.
MS. WASTWEET:
move on?

Okay.

Any other comments before we

April, to you, please, for the Native

American 2022.
2022: ELY S. PARKER
MS. STAFFORD:

Ely Samuel Parker, born as Ha-

sa-no-an-da of the Tonawanda Seneca Nation, mastered
English as a youth, and served as a translator and
scribe for tribal chiefs in their struggle to maintain
their reservations.
In appreciation, the Iroquois bestowed upon
Parker their greatest honor, naming him Grand Sachem of
the Six Nations and according him the sacred name of
Donehogawa, Keeper of the Western Door of the Iroquois
Longhouse.
In 1853, at the age of 25, the governor of New

York formally recognized Parker as the chief
representative of the Iroquois confederacy, and the
state government treated him as the head chief in any
dealings with the confederacy.
Parker studied law but was not allowed to take
the bar exam because he was not a United States citizen
at that time.

Instead, Parker trained as a civil

engineer, and while on assignment in Illinois, met a
store clerk named Ulysses S. Grant and started a
fateful friendship.
Parker later served as General Ulysses S.
Grant’s military secretary during the Civil War.

In

that capacity, Parker drafted the Articles of Surrender
when Robert E. Lee met with Grant at Appomattox,
Virginia, on the morning of April 9, 1865.
Lee, recognizing Parker as an American Indian,
extended his hand with the comment, “I am glad to see
one real American here.”

Parker accepted Lee’s hand,

responding, “We are all Americans.”
All of the following candidate designs feature
a depiction of Ely Parker, inscriptions of his English
name or a representation of his signature and the

Indian name given to him at birth, Ha-sa-no-an-da.

The

designs also carry the required inscriptions “UNITED
STATES OF AMERICA” and “$1.”
Beginning with design one and 1A, they feature
Parker with two quill pens, symbolic of his life and
work in two worlds, as a Seneca and a resident of the
United States.

1A, seen here, includes the additional

inscription “TONAWANDA SENECA,” Parker’s tribe.

This

design is the preferred design of the Tonawanda Seneca
Nation's Council of Chiefs, who requested that
"TONAWANDA SENECA" be added as an inscription.
Designs two through six depict Parker with a
quill pen and book, symbolic of his mastery of English
and his graceful penmanship.

In three, seen here, the

two pillars represent Parker’s life in two worlds,
running parallel to one another.
The columns also give the effect of a
doorframe; and, with his raised hand pointing to the
west, references the title “Donehogawa,” meaning
“Keeper of the Western Door of the Iroquois Longhouse.”
You can also see designs four, five and six.

The

National Congress of American Indians recommended six

as the closest likeness to Parker.

They felt that his

military uniform added context to Parker's importance
in U.S. history, but requested that further context be
given, particularly the inscriptions "SENECA ATTORNEY,"
"ENGINEER BREVET BRIGADIER GENERAL," which you'll see
on design eight.
Design seven depicts Parker seated at a table
with pen in hand and a document in front of him.
Design eight and nine focus on Parker, while in eight
the wall behind him provides a backdrop to highlight
his varied career, and described in the additional
inscriptions).
In addition to serving as a Seneca attorney,
Parker worked for the U.S. as a civil engineer, during
which time he met Grant.

At the end of the Civil War,

Parker was granted the title of brevet brigadier
general, an honorary promotion from his rank of
lieutenant colonel.
Eight was edited again to include the use of
Parker's military uniform, which when accompanied by
the inscriptions "SENECA ATTORNEY," "ENGINEER," and
"BREVET BRIGADIER GENERAL" provides context to Parker's

importance to U.S. history, as recommended by our
friends at the National Congress of the American
Indian.

Here is design nine as well.
Designs 10 and 1A feature the McLean House in

Appomattox, Virginia, the building where the Articles
of Surrender were signed on April 9, 1865, ending the
U.S. Civil War.

Both designs include the inscription

“TONAWANDA SENECA,” while 10A, seen here, adds
reference to his honorary rank of brevet brigadier
general in the U.S. Army.
Eleven features Parker with a wolf,
representative of his clan in the Tonawanda Seneca
Nation.

Twelve through 14A depict Parker with a book

at hand, symbolic of his education and mastery of
English.
In 13, seen here, and 14, here, a broken
rainbow symbolizes a dream Parker’s mother had before
he was born.

The broken rainbow she saw stretching

across the landscape was interpreted as a vision of her
future son’s life in two worlds.

Designs 13, 14 and

14A include the additional inscription “TONAWANDA
SENECA.”

That concludes the portfolio, Madam Chair.
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you, April.

Herman,

would you start us off again?
DR. VIOLA:

Okay.

can get this to work again.
me?

Okay.

Thank you.
Okay.

Let's see if I

Everybody can hear

This is another very important coin.

But

he really has -- Ely Parker has a great role in
American history.
First of all, he was the highest ranking
Indian in the Union Army.

And what most people don’t

realize, there were thousands and thousands of Indians
who fought on both sides.

And while we give Lee credit

for surrendering, he was not the last Confederate
general to surrender.

It was a Cherokee chief, you

know, Stand Watie, who surrendered.
So those Indians were fighting, you know,
quite hard for both causes.

The reasons the Indians

fought so hard for the Confederacy, the Confederacy
said if they won, Indians would be represented in the
Congress.

And so, they really were fighting for

citizenship and a lot of other things.
Parker, ironically, had the best handwriting

on Grant's staff.

Grant said as much.

And that's why

he was asked to draft the surrender documents.

And the

other real interesting story is when Lee came in, you
know, Grant wanted him to meet his staff, his officers.
And when Parker went forward, Grant -- Lee at
first thought that he was kind of being needled a bit
because here was -- Parker was quite dark.
And thought, well, look at Grant giving be a
black man to -- and then he said, no, this is, you
know, Ely Parker.

Oh, an Indian.

And that's when Lee

said, oh, I'm so glad to see a real American here.

And

then, you know, Parker said, sir, in this room, we're
all Americans.
So, but the other thing, of course, is that
Parker then went on to be the first Indian to run the
Bureau of Indian Affairs.
distinguished career.
as he did in the Army.

So he's really had a very

He didn't do as well at that job
But he has an important role in

Indian history and American history.
But picking the design is going to be a
challenge.

You know, I personally like the one with

the crossed feathers at the top because he really did

work in two worlds.
fluent.

And he was such -- he was so

But there's some challenges about having a

two-headed coin.

And so, I understand number eight is

the one that a lot of people prefer.

I don’t think it

looks as good as some of the others as a portrait.
But, you know, I'd say I'm willing to listen
to the rest of the group as to what they want.
know, he's also the keeper of the western door.

You
And

you may not understand why that title was given.
The Senecas, the confederacy had five tribes.
And the Senecas were the furthest west of the tribes in
the confederacy.

So they were the protectors of the

other people in the confederacy.
So there's a lot of symbolism that goes into
all of this.

So I'm looking forward to what my

colleagues say as far as which one they think would
make the better medal.
MR. WEINMAN:

Thank you.
Can I make a comment just about

the two-headed coin issue?

That -- just so you know,

the standard in the Native American dollar legislation
is different from the standard from the ATB language
and previously the 50Q language before that which was

more specific about no head-and-shoulders bust.

The

requirement here -- and I'm quickly looking for the
passage.
Here it is: "In the case of a design depicting
the contributions of an individual Native American to
the development of the United States or the history of
the United States, shall not depict the individual in a
size such that the coin could be considered a twoheaded coin."
So it's an interesting comment.

Because of

that type of language, we've given a lot of leeway from
a legal standpoint in these designs.

There were

certain designs that in fact we did modify to make sure
that they had other elements involved so they couldn't
obviously be considered two-headed coin.
So all of these designs meet the very, very
low bar, legal standard.

But it's really up to the

CCAC and the other stakeholders to make the
determination whether or not it is a good design for
that purpose.
So if you feel strongly that this looks like a
two-headed coin, then that's relevant.

But it doesn't

meet the legal standard.
MS. WASTWEET:
off.

At least know that.
Thank you.

That helps start us

And I agree that there's a legal precedent and

then there's -- as the saying goes, I know it when I
see it.
So that can be our guide to a certain degree,
that if it -- I think if it feels like too close to a
two-headed coin, then it's better to steer in another
direction.

So Jeanne, can you go next?

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

This is a -- as we all have noted, this is a relatively
difficult choice because we do have to represent
Parker.
And I think it's a good idea to recognize this
accomplishments in number eight.
don’t like that design at all.

But to be honest, I
It would be great if we

could somehow put these accomplishments on another
coin.

I mean, it just isn't to me very inspiring.
I like number four because the portrait is so

intense.

And I like number three for what it

represents, to protect the western door.

And if

somehow if we could add a little more information to

that piece, it's still not one that I am loving and
thinking it's great.

But when I go through some of

these others, I like number 13 and 14 with the broken
rainbow.

This might have just too much information in

terms of the design and maybe Parker is a little too
small on number 13.
So I'm really wanting to listen to my
colleagues to hear their comments on these.
difficult for me.

Thank you.

MS. WASTWEET:
to jump in next.

This is

Thank you.

I think I'm going

I'm going to start out by saying one

and two, I do think that the head is too large compared
to the obverse.

It's competing, in my opinion.

I do

like design number three, although I don’t think it's
my favorite.
Sometimes I just have to jump to just the most
beautiful design and that leads me to six.
just drawn really well.
all the information.
book.

This is

It's a great portrait.

He's got the pen.

It has

He's got the

I love the way the text is thoughtfully

incorporated as part of the composition.

As we heard,

one of our liaisons felt it was the best likeness of

him.

And I think it's got a lot going on, but it's

still size-appropriate.

So I'm really leaning towards

this one.
As far as design number eight -- and this also
applies to 10 and 10A and 13 -- I'm never going to put
my vote towards a design that runs text over the
topography of the image, especially on a small and
shallow palate.
As a sculptor, this grates on me the wrong
way.

It never looks good except on paper, in my

opinion.

I'm going to end my comments there and go to

Mary, please.
MS. LANNIN:

This is really tough.

I respect

what Heidi said about having the text running over
someone or something.

But number eight was the only

one that kind of listed more than one accomplishment
for him.
So I kind of gravitated toward that one.

If

there's a way to fade out part of his uniform, you
know, maybe eliminate like the last button or something
like that and have everything just sort of fade off, to
have those titles, I think that that's fairly

important.

Number six, which was Heidi's favorite, why

is he itching his shoulder with a pen?
MR. JANSEN:

Because he itches.

MS. LANNIN:

I just -- it may -- that may very

well be true.

But it's this funny contortion that his

other shoulder is forward.

I like the arc of his birth

name against the United States of America.

But I just

find that to be terribly contorted.
1A, which is their preferred one, his beard
looks like icicles growing into the uniform.
don’t you think?

Really,

I mean, it's very hard to discern

that he's actually bearded, where it's really pretty
obvious in many of the other things.
I'm going to have a hard time picking one.
Number three, I felt like he was kind of caged in by
those two lines.

Although graphically, I think that

that is the most beautiful.
So those are my comments.

I'm really kind of

confused about this portfolio.
MS. WASTWEET:

Next, I'd like to go to Dennis

on the phone, please.
MR. TUCKER:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ely

Parker is a hero of mine.

I grew up in central and

western New York, the Syracuse and Rochester area.

And

Rochester is connected to Ely Parker, of course.
We've talked a lot about his later life and
how he served different roles with the United States
government.

But really, the recognition of Ely

Parker's talents and strengths as a communicator went
back to his childhood.
In the late 1830s/early 1840s, there were some
treaties that would have sent the Tonawanda Senecas to
Kansas.

And the elders of the tribe were planning

different state and federal appeals.
And at this point, Ely Parker, who was just a
boy, had a run-in with some English soldiers, who made
fun of his English and his broken form of communicating
with them.
again.

So he vowed that he would never be mocked

He went to Yates Academy and he applied

himself.
And he showed such promise and such a spark
that the elders of the Senecas appointed him as their
translator, scribe and interpreter for correspondence
and meetings with the federal -- with the U.S.

government.

He was 14 years old.

He was 14 years old.

So I see Ely Parker as a communicator.
a writer.

You know, obviously this was important for

his career as a lawyer.
engineer.

He was

We pointed out that he was an

He was a military officer.

Everything about

him was about the written word, the beautiful
penmanship, the communication.
So to me, it's important to have something in
this coin design that illustrates that concept of him
being a communicator.

And traditionally, in Greco-

Roman -- you know, if we were looking at this as a
traditional coin, we would have a lamp of knowledge or
a quilled pen or, you know, an ink well, you know,
something that communicates writing and knowledge in
that way.
I was first drawn to 1A for the reason that
one of our liaisons was drawn to it.
this was a modification of design one.

And I understand
But the fact

that it includes the tribal name of the Tonawanda
Seneca, that stood out to me.

And it has the feathers.

But the more I thought about it, the feathers
really -- they don't say quilled pen to me necessarily

here.

They could be -- they could be representative of

many different things.

So I like 1A.

But I am more

drawn to the designs that show him with a book, which
denotes knowledge.

You know, holding a quill that is

obviously a pen.
I agree with Mary.

Number six is kind of a

strange contortion of his figure.

I have never seen

anyone hold themselves that way, sitting with a book in
their lap and then holding a pen.
Number eight, I appreciate how people are
drawn to the fact that it includes some of his
accomplishments.
attorney.

But these -- you know, yes, he was an

He was an engineer.

He was a military

officer.
But there was -- those are just titles that
came later.

Those are things that sprang from his

brilliance as a communicator that came from his
childhood.
By the way, about 20 years ago, I worked on
the website for a PBS production called Warrior in Two
Worlds.

If you go to PBS.org, check this out.

It's a

wonderful introduction and overview of the life of Ely

Parker.

I like the symbolism of the rainbow.

broken rainbow was his mother's dream.

The

She had a

vision that he would be a warrior in two worlds.

That

was the broken rainbow.
I don’t know if it really works well on a
coin.

I think it makes a fine drawing.

But, you know,

the use of shading might be problematic.
Ultimately I am drawn to 14A because -- well,
for several reasons.

He's holding a book, which is

important to his role as a communicator.

It includes

the tribal name of the Tonawanda Seneca.

I like the

way his signature is shown graphically, as if he'd
written his name.

And it includes his triable name of

Hasanoanda.
The portrait -- you know, some of the other
portraits might be better depictions of him.
that's not a bad portrait.

But

Another weakness might be

that it doesn't -- it doesn't play up his military
background.
I don’t think that's a horrible weakness of
this design.

I think there's more to him than that.

So my weight will be given to 14A.

MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you, Dennis.

Mike, can I

get you to go next?
MR. MORAN:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I had the

same problem I think everybody has had with one and 1A,
that it becomes in essence a two-headed coin, whether
it's legally that or not.

And as a result, I backed

off those.
But once I did that, I stepped off into what I
called a quagmire because all of these really are
variations of the portrait of him.

And they each have

their strengths and their weaknesses.
I finally settled on one of them and that was
one that's not been mentioned.
glasses are in my coat.
too large.

That is number 11.

My

The wolf is a little outsized,

But you see here a man of accomplishments.

You see here a leader.

He was both.

And you see the two sides of him as well, the
white man side and the Native American side with the
wolf.

I liked it for the composition and I suspect

I'll probably be the only one that does on that one.
It's just my personal preference.
MS. WASTWEET:

And that's what's important.

Robert?
MR. HOGE:

Thank you, Heidi.

My difficulty

with these was which is really the likeness of Ely
Parker.

It looks like each one -- or each grouping

shows him with a different portrait.

And I think,

April, you said that number six was considered the best
likeness, which is almost the same as number five.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. URAM:

From one particular group.

MR. MORAN:
MR. HOGE:

Right.

Same -Did anyone else have a preference

of which portrait looked most accurate?

This is

supposed to be a representation of the man.
So I think having an accurate likeness is
probably an important feature of this.

There are

historical photographs of him in existence.

Apart from

that, these designs in general are all pretty nice.
I think in terms of a powerful artistic
representation, some of them do stand out more than
others.

I like number four, for instance.

pen there.

You see the

You see him in what appears to be a

military uniform.

Number 12, this could be perhaps an

image of Frederick Douglass with a different costume.
But number six, I don’t particularly care for
the post or the gesture.

But if that's the best

likeness, that might be one that would draw attention.
Number five, which is very similar, might be better.
We can see something of the book -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
that.

Yeah.

I agree with

Yeah.
MR. HOGE:

pen there.

-- and he's holding a funny looking

Number one and number 1A, these could be

eagle feathers.

We don’t know if they're goose

feathers or whatever.
And since we've already gone two times now
using two eagle feathers, we could go two more feathers
for a third time, right?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

But these are goose

feathers.
MR. HOGE:
right.
size.

But you know, they look about the same, same
So yeah -MR. URAM:

credit.

Well, these are goose feathers,

She gives coin collectors too much

MR. HOGE:
credit.

Yeah, she gives them too much

Not all the time -MR. URAM:

They're not going to know the

difference.
MR. HOGE:

It's two feathers.

And a quilled

pen probably didn't have all the plumage anyway, in it
being handled.
shorter.

I think most of them were probably

So this is a difficulty.

And I don’t really

have a terribly strong preference.
I don’t like truncated figures particularly.
I'm with Heidi in not liking the overlapping lettering
on number 10 and 10A with the uniform, the field and
the house.

But in general, we have some attractive

representations here.

I'd just want the one that'd be

most accurate and most appropriate.
MS. WASTWEET:

Well, I quickly -- while you

were talking, I Googled some photographs of him.
must say he looks different in the different
photographs.
MR. HOGE:

He does?

MS. WASTWEET:

So as he ages, different

periods of his life, different angles of the

And I

photograph, he does look often different.

So it's hard

to say.
MR. HOGE:

His hairline is different.

His ear

is different and his cheek.
MS. WASTWEET:

Yeah.

So it's hard to say that

there's one that is a definitive look of him.
MR. HOGE:

So maybe that doesn't matter.

MR. TUCKER:
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. TUCKER:

Yes, Heidi?
Yes?
I would just add that I don’t

think any of these portraits are bad portraits.

You

know, they might be different.
But as you pointed out, you know, if we just
go by the photographic record, there are lots of
different ways of looking at Ely Parker as he aged and,
you know, depending on how he was looking, whether he
was looking at you or not looking at you.

So I don’t

think any of these are bad portraits.
MS. LANNIN:

Dennis, I agree with you.

Googled what Ely S. Parker looked like.

I also

And the

portrait that I'm looking at, which is very similar to
number five and number six, you know, I don’t like the

contorted one in number six.
But number five is a very nice coin.

The

photograph that I'm looking at that the artist possibly
used for inspiration was taken by Mathew Brady, the
famed Civil War photographer.

So it may be more

familiar and more noted because of Brady's body of work
as well.

So that would be a very good representation.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. URAM:

Tom, to you.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Actually

we don’t have to worry about it being a two-headed coin
because it's three-headed anyhow.

So we don’t have to

worry about that.
I do like -- I do like the idea of the
signature.

I think that's something that draws you to

wonder who this person is.

I think that it would be

nice had one or 1A had one feather and then maybe a
book instead of two feathers, had it had a book instead
of two feathers and scaled down a little bit.
But if we were going to go with five, I'd like
to see the name in script or number eight with the name
in script.

So if we put that all together, I think we

end up at 14A, which gives -- you know, it has the

book.
It has a lot of the elements that would make
it not looking like the Douglass of number 12 or some
other coin that we've already done.

And it has the

script for his name to draw in and make it a little bit
different.

And we have a very small planchet here.

It's not like we have a lot to go with.
So I'm going to lean more towards 14A, even
though I really do like one.

It's just that for

whatever reason, those two feathers bother me as far as
having them two -- having two of them there.

It just

doesn’t work.
But I could support five as well.
eight are possibilities.

Five and

I think number eight, if you

did go with that and you had his name in script there,
it would be balanced out real well also instead of the
italics.

Thank you, Madam Chair.
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you, Tom.

Erik, you're

going to wrap us up.
MR. JANSEN:

All right.

So I'm either going

to blow this open or I'm going to close it and you can
decide.

What I'm seeing is a bunch of us voting ones
and twos and I'm worried that we're not going to get a
solution here.
So what I'm hearing really is what we would
love to have seen is something other than a
portraiture, but rather something that focused on this
man as a communicative polymath, with all the things he
did either as an individual or for the country.
But I don’t see that here anywhere.

The

closest is see to that is to pull a signature out
because it's such an unusual feature to put on a coin.
And it usually speaks to -- it speaks to something
beyond, obviously the written word being featured in a
signature.
So I'm either going to ask everybody to close
on 14A, put this process to an end and give enough
weight to 14A that we can move forward.

It has his

signature.

It has a book.

It's not a two-headed coin.

DR. VIOLA:
MR. JANSEN:
least pleasant.

Yeah.

I agree.

And I think the layout is at

Or alternatively, and I'm not going to

make a motion, if someone feels so dissatisfied right

now, make a motion and ask for new artwork focusing on
the polymath nature here and, in any case, move on to
the next item today.
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you, Erik.

the first comments on 14A.

I'll throw in

I would -- as a sculptor, I

would have trouble with the foreshortening of that
hand.

It's one of those things that looks great in the

drawing, not so much on a coin.
And I don’t know why the book is so very tiny.
And I do like those that are a little more military
looking.

And I've heard several opinions of liking the

signature.
But I feel the signature is less legible,
especially on a small palate.

And considering Mary's

dislike of the gesture in six, I also like five, which
is very similar.

But it has a nice negative space

around the quill pen, which makes it more stand out -MS. LANNIN:
MS. WASTWEET:

And a big book.
And a nice, large book and a

good likeness and the legible name.

And also, some of

these designs I feel look like medal designs rather
than coin designs.

But I feel like this one has that coin feel to
it.

So does anyone have any other comments before we

go to vote?
MR. TUCKER:

I would make another comment, if

I could.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. TUCKER:

Sure, Dennis.
Just to go to bat for 14A, Ely

Parker was probably one of the best engineers in the
United States before he went on to his greater federal
career.

He was recognized for this.

He was

instrumental in the construction of the Erie Canal.
So I don’t think it's -- I don’t think it's a
problem not showing him in military garb.
uniform looks great.

The military

But, you know, this was a man who

was an attorney, an engineer.
And just to reinforce that idea of the
importance and significance of his signature, not every
Native American at this time period could sign their
name.

Not every American in the early 1800s could sign

their name.

Many would have to have signed with an X.

This signature on this coin shows him as a man
of intelligence, as an educated man.

So to me, that's

very significant.

And yes, the book is small.

But the

book is there.
And I think it has the other elements that I
found to be significant.

As I mentioned, it has the

name of the Tonawanda Seneca, which is something that
some of our liaisons preferred as well.

So I think

that 14A is a strong design.
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you, Dennis.

So I thank

everyone for getting us back on track time-wise.

I'd

like to take a 10-minute recess to tally our votes and
then we'll come back.

Thank you.

(Whereupon, the foregoing went off the record
at 2:09 p.m., and went back on the record at
2:20 p.m.)
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:

We are back in session.
Okay.

We're back.

While we

wait for Mr. Jansen to come with coffee -- you might as
well leave the door open.
his hand.

He'll be having coffee in

The results are as follows.
MS. STAFFORD:
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. STAFFORD:

Hi, excellent.

Coffee for you.
Exactly.

Oh no --

I thought you were just being

nice.
MR. WEINMAN:
here.

I was being very self-serving

Number one, design one got three votes.

1A has seven votes.

Design

Design two has zero votes.

three comes in with six votes.

Design

Design four has three

votes.

Design five is your top vote-getter with 21

votes.

Design six has five.

Design seven has five.

Design eight has five.
Design nine -- I'm sorry, design nine has one.
Design 10 has zero votes.
has three.
vote.

10A has zero votes.

Twelve has four votes.

Fourteen has one vote.

Eleven

Thirteen has one

And 14A has 18 votes, so

a close second.
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you.

appears to be a clear winner.

We have a -- what

Do we have any follow-up

motions or discussions on our choice of obverse five?
MR. JANSEN:

I might make a request that the

feather be at least changed to an outline that's closer
to an eagle feather.

I don’t know how the rest of the

committee feels about that.

It just looks like a

scraggly quill to me and I think there -MS. LANNIN:

It looks like a leaf.

MR. JANSEN:

-- there is a metaphorical play

here.
MS. WASTWEET:

I think that's -- I think

that's an artistic interpretation of a -MR. JANSEN:

I appreciate that.

And I'm just

trying to put that out there, that if that were to look
more like an eagle feather, it might be a little
metaphorically complex here.
MS. WASTWEET:

Did he write with an eagle

feather or what -MS. STAFFORD:

Oh, we have -- Jim, are you on

the line?
MR. JANSEN:

Herman's not here to render an

opinion.
MS. STAFFORD:

Herman -- okay.

So --

MS. WASTWEET:

I think it would have been a

goose feather.
MS. STAFFORD:

It would be -- well, it would -

- we would just want to check.
MR. JANSEN:
MS. STAFFORD:
MR. JANSEN:

Totally agree.
To make sure that it wasn't -We've got to make sure it's not a

contextual insult.
MS. STAFFORD:

Yes.

MS. WASTWEET:

So Herman's here.

Herman, we

have a question for you.
DR. VIOLA:

All right.

MS. WASTWEET:

Would this be an eagle feather

or a goose feather?
DR. VIOLA:

It sure doesn't look like an eagle

feather.
MR. JANSEN:
MR. URAM:

No, it does not.
But should it be?

MR. JANSEN:

Should it be?

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:

Should it be?
Could it be without insulting

someone?
DR. VIOLA:

Well, it should not be an eagle

feather in this context.
MR. JANSEN:

Okay.

MS. WASTWEET:
DR. VIOLA:

Okay.

And, I mean, unless you --

frankly, the Indians would not have it look so scruffy.
I mean, it would be a beautifully --

MS. LANNIN:
DR. VIOLA:

A goose quill, yeah.
-- designed and in perfect shape.

I mean, that in no way is an Indian.

But I would

assume that that's an eagle feather.
MR. JANSEN:

So perhaps a less scruffy feather

that is not rendered to be an eagle.
MS. LANNIN:

Goose feather.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

A goose quill.

It needs

to be -MR. JANSEN:
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:
All right.

A good goose feather.
So noted, on the record.
So noted, and on the record.

Let's move on to our next --

MR. TUCKER:
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. TUCKER:

Madam Chair?

I'm sorry --

Dennis?
I just have one comment I'd like

to make.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. TUCKER:

Sure.
The typographical treatment of

his name, Ely Parker, in design five, I'm trying to
avoid design by committee.

However, if that

typographical treatment is not crucial to the design,

could that be changed to his signature?
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. TUCKER:

It could be.
For all of the reasons that I

laid out earlier, the symbolism that a signature has in
representing a man of education.
MR. JANSEN:

I would agree with that.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I agree.

I do too,

yeah.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:
MS. WASTWEET:

So Dennis -Yeah.
-- you can either leave that as

a committee comment or you can make a formal motion.
Which would you like to do?
MR. JANSEN:

I would second a motion, Dennis.

MR. TUCKER:

I would make a motion that Ely

Parker's name be transformed from a typographical
treatment to a replication of his signature.
MR. JANSEN:

Is there an example you like in

any of the other drawings?
MR. TUCKER:
better.

I would say the bolder, the

I have to admit I haven't studied his

historical signature or autograph.

So I don’t know if

one is accurate and others aren't.
that's on the record.

But, you know,

So we could -- we could find a

good historical depiction of that.
MS. WASTWEET:

All right.

Do we have a

second?
MR. JANSEN:

What was the motion?

MS. WASTWEET:

The motion is to change the

text of his name to a depiction of his signature.
MR. JANSEN:

Second here.

MS. WASTWEET:

Erik has seconded.

Do we have

any discussion?
MS. LANNIN:

Do you want to have the S in it?

All of his signatures have the word -- have the initial
S.
MR. HOGE:

Why don’t we leave that up to the

Mint?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. JANSEN:

I would assume so.

I think there are enough examples

in 10, 10A, 14A, for example, that it should be pretty
straightforward to pick the art up.
MS. LANNIN:

Yeah.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

With an S, though.
I think it needs it.

MR. JANSEN:

With the S, correct.

That's the

way he signed it.
MS. WASTWEET:

All right.

All in favor of the

motion?
(Chorus of ayes.)
MS. WASTWEET:
motion carries.

Okay.

Opposed, all say nay.

The

If that's all of our discussion

on -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
more little piece.

If -- it's -- no, one

As long as we're going to change

that, is it possible to add the Tonawanda Seneca
underneath that, as in 14A?
MS. WASTWEET:

I don’t think it will fit.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
fit?

You don’t think it would

Okay.
MS. WASTWEET:

No.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I don’t think it will fit.
Yeah, I understand.

But

-MS. WASTWEET:

Any other comments or support

for that idea?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
motion?

Well, what if I made a

MS. WASTWEET:

You can make a motion.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Okay.

I would move that

we would add Tonawanda Seneca underneath Ely Parker's
name.

That's my motion.
MS. WASTWEET:

Do I have a second for that

motion?
DR. VIOLA:

I'll second.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you.

Herman seconds that motion.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

And the only reason why

I'm asking, or presenting this motion is that that was
one of the preferences that the -- or one of the Seneca
tribes, that that be noted.
MS. LANNIN:

So you would move up --

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
that -- move that up.

Yeah, I'd move -- move

Take the one out and put it

maybe on his sleeve or behind him.

Take the dollar

sign out and just it up.
And if you look at 14A, pretty much all that
information is there.

So I agree.

that that is a lot on a small coin.
this -- I think Parker needs this.

I agree with Heidi
However, I think

MS. WASTWEET:

Would you want to amend your

motion to say to fit it in rather than saying
specifically below the name, just to -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Oh yes, so to fit it in.

It doesn't matter if it goes below or above.

But I

would like to add it, add it to -- and if in adding, we
need to move the dollar sign to the right, to behind
him.
MS. WASTWEET:

so the motion is to add

Tonawanda Seneca wherever it can fit most pleasingly.
Herman, do you want to also agree with that?
DR. VIOLA:

Yes, I agree.

MS. WASTWEET:

Any other comments?

-- a show of hands, everyone in favor.
MS. LANNIN:

No, four.

MR. JANSEN:

Too damn much.

MS. WASTWEET:

Two against.

Then let's

Six.

Against?

Motion carries.

Dennis?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
Dennis?

Thank you.

Dennis, did you -MR. TUCKER:

Aye.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Aye.

Thank you.

MS. WASTWEET:

Okay.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. TUCKER:

Thank you, Dennis.

Motion carries.
One of -- one of Ely Parker's

greatest legacies after he became grand sachem was he
was able to negotiate the repurchase of about twothirds of the Seneca lands.
So I think it's important to acknowledge his
connection to that legacy.

And using the name of the

Tonawanda Senecas does that.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. LANNIN:
MS. WASTWEET:

Okay.

Yes.

Good.

Thank you.

Good.

Any other motions or changes,

comments, concerns?
MS. LANNIN:

I make a motion that we go on to

the next.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:

Dreams?
Move on.
Desperations.

Let's move on.

2021-22 AMERICAN EAGLE PLATINUM PROOF COIN PROGRAM
MS. STAFFORD:

The American Eagle Platinum

Proof coin program, started in 1997, has long tied

individual coins together through thematic series, such
as “Vistas of Liberty,” “Foundations of Democracy” and
“Preamble to the Constitution.”
For the first time in the history of this
program, designs for the three year “Life, Liberty and
the Pursuit of Happiness” series were developed by
artists at the same time.

And the candidate designs

were reviewed and selected at the same time as well.
This ensured each design not only
appropriately represented the specific theme for that
year but also presented the unique opportunity to have
the obverses work together across the three coins to
give expression to these core American principles.
The 2021 through 2025 series will reflect the
five freedoms enumerated in the First Amendment to the
United States Constitution; that is: “Congress shall
make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the
freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the
people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the
government for a redress of grievances.”
We once again asked artists to create designs

that not only well represent each individual year’s
freedom, but that also work together harmoniously
across the five-year series.
To illustrate their approach to this task,
artists developed submissions for the first three years
in the series: for 2021, "Freedom of Religion"; 2022,
"Freedom of Speech"; and, 2023, "Freedom of the Press."
They were given the option to submit rough sketches or
a description of how they would depict the remaining
two designs for 2024 and 2025, specifically "Freedom of
Assembly" and "Freedom to Petition," respectively.
We also developed a portfolio of candidate
designs for just the first year of this series, 2021’s
"Freedom of Religion."

We wanted the artists to be

able to focus on representing this singular freedom
without the constraint of conceiving the design in
consideration with the four others in the series.
As such, we will present to you both
portfolios for this program, one portfolio of multiple
designs created in concert with one another across the
series and another portfolio of designs developed only
to represent the first freedom, "Freedom of Religion."

Please note we are not looking for design
recommendations at this meeting, but rather feedback to
guide us and the artists on next best steps.

For

instance, should we continue to develop the designs as
a series or agree that it is best to focus on each
design as a unique statement of that particular year’s
freedom?
Or the committee may advise us to bring back
only some of the designs in both categories, a subset
of the strongest ideas that should be further
developed.

We are scheduled to bring back revised

designs in March 2019 for recommendations.
Required obverse inscriptions for the platinum
proof coin are “LIBERTY,” “IN GOD WE TRUST,” “E
PLURIBUS UNUM” and the year of issuance.
The reverse design introduced for the 2018
through 2020 Platinum Proof series featuring an
American eagle will be the same reverse throughout the
2021 through 2025 series.

And it's seen here on our

screen.
First, we're going to look at the designs
developed in concert with one another across the

series.

This is set one.

The artist tied together

these designs through its use of flora and a
traditional Liberty figure.
The 2021 design for this set features Liberty
surrounded by floral symbols of various religions of
our world.

The inscription "FREEDOM OF RELIGION" is

included.
The 2022 design depicts Liberty with a
stylized laurel in the background, symbolic of victory
and honor.
The flag is included in the design because the
Supreme Court has interpreted speech broadly and also
applied to it the symbolic expression such as
displaying flags.

The inscription "FREEDOM OF SPEECH"

is included.
2023 portrays Liberty holding a document,
symbolic of the press or printed material, with
stylized laurel in the background.

The inscription

“FREEDOM OF THE PRESS” is included.
The artist submitted the following narrative
to illustrate how he or she would continue this set.
Note that the treatment along the border of the designs

would remain the same.
For 2024, or the "Freedom of Assembly," the
artist envisions that the design would feature multiple
profiles facing right, reminiscent of Liberty used on
various coins in the past.

A background of symbolic

plants would be used similar to those featured in 2021
through 2023.
2025, or the "Freedom of Petition," would have
Liberty depicted to the waist, facing left.
holding a placard or not.

She may be

The background would be made

of other placards containing no text, making a
geometric pattern.

And there would be space between

allowing for proof polishing.

A plant symbolic of

freedom again would be introduced into the design.
Moving on to set two, this set features
designs set against a backdrop of a symbolic image of
the American flag.
2021 portrays eight figures of different
faiths, cultures and viewpoints.
“FREEDOM OF RELIGION” is included.

The inscription
2022 depicts a

woman giving a speech with the inscription “FREEDOM OF
SPEECH."

2023depicts an 18th century style printing

press similar to Ben Franklin's printing press.

The

inscription “FREEDOM OF THE PRESS” is included.

2024

features a trio of peaceful demonstrators with the
inscription “FREEDOM TO ASSEMBLE."

And 2025

illustrates the inscription of “FREEDOM TO PETITION”
with an image of the scales of Justice.
Set three's unifying elements are the use of
consistent typography, hand gestures and shields that
represent the United States Constitution and the
protection that the First Amendment provides for each
of the five freedoms in this series.
2021 features praying hands typical of many
religions, with the inscription “FREEDOM OF RELIGION."
2022 represents the hand gestures of a person behind a
speaker’s podium and microphone during a public speech.
The inscription “FREEDOM OF SPEECH” is included.
2023 depicts a person publishing a story on a
laptop computer as it is received through a source via
smart phone.

The protection of the freedom of the

press is particularly relevant in the age of digital
and social media with content that can be published
instantly by any American with a communication device.

The inscription “FREEDOM OF THE PRESS” is included.
2024 represents solidarity with hands clasped
together in a group assembly.
OF ASSEMBLY” is included.

The inscription “FREEDOM

And 2025 portrays the hands

of a person signing the first signature of a clip board
petition.
This is a typical method used to garner public
support of an issue or grievance that can be presented
to local, state or federal government representatives
to act on.

The inscription “FREEDOM TO PETITION” is

included.
Sets four and 4A enshrine the language of the
First Amendment surrounding the text with a laurel
wreath.

We'll start with set four.

Four and 4A depict

a torch above the inscription, “CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO
LAW RESPECTING AN ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION, OR
PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF.”
Liberty holding the torch.

Four features

And we have 4A.

2022-04 features Liberty with arms
outstretched above the inscription, “CONGRESS SHALL
MAKE NO LAW ABRIDGING THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH.”
portrays Liberty with a scroll and features the

2023

inscription, “CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW ABRIDGING THE
FREEDOM OF THE PRESS.”
Set five features a variety of allegorical
figures.

Each figure represents different concepts of

liberty as expressed through the rights enumerated in
the First Amendment.

Additionally, the key word from

each freedom is inscribed using script modeled after
the original text of the Bill of Rights.
2021 shows Liberty in different attitudes or
postures of worship, prayer and meditation, suggesting
the diversity of religious practice in America.

The

inscription “RELIGION” is included.
2022 portrays Liberty engaged in three basic
modes of speech.

These simple avenues of expression --

writing, formal speaking or lecturing and raising one’s
voice in the public square -- are fundamental.

The

inscription “SPEECH” is included.
2023 shows Liberty busily engaged in
publishing and reading printed materials.

One reviews

a large printed sheet, one reads from a bound book and
a third operates an 18th century printing press.
inscription “THE PRESS” is included.

The

Set seven feature people participating in the
respective freedom depicted.

2021 depicts different

attitudes of prayer used by some of the religions of
our nation, where we have the right to gather and
worship according to our faith.
2022 portrays the magnified power of people's
individual voices when peacefully assembled to shed
light on issues.

A sign with the inscription, “OUR

VOICES WILL NOT BE SILENCED” is included.
2023 showcases a selection of the various
mediums that the press uses in its reporting of the
news.

2024 is a rough sketch that depicts an assembled

group of figures, while 2025 features a petition on a
clipboard being signed.
Set eight primarily uses the hands of people
participating in the various freedoms of the First
Amendment.

2021 depicts hands in attitudes of prayer

used by some of the religions of our nation.

2022

portrays the magnified power of people's individual
voices when peacefully assembled.
2023 showcases a selection of the various
mediums that the press uses in its reporting of the

news.

2024 is a rough depiction of an assembled group

of figures.

And 2025 features a petition on a

clipboard.
Set nine illustrates the freedoms in action.
2021 shows the torch-bearing hand of the Statue of
Liberty, which is a welcomed site to generations of
immigrants arriving to the United States.

Her torch

illuminates the inscription, “CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO
LAW RESPECTING THE ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION.”
2022 depicts two hands holding a sign with the
inscription, “FREEDOM OF SPEECH.”

And 2023 illustrates

the freedom of the press throughout the ages.
top is a town crier.

At the

In the middle is an early 20th

century news boy holding up a paper.

And at the bottom

is a contemporary young man getting his news on a
phone.

The inscription “FREEDOM OF THE PRESS” is

included.
Set 10 uses the oak tree as a metaphor for our
country’s growth as a nation that values freedom.
Liberty grows to a thing of strength and beauty from a
seed, that specifically being our Bill of Rights.
In 2021, this design depicts a seedling and an

acorn with the inscription, “LIBERTY GROWS.”

The

inscription “FREEDOM OF RELIGION” is also included.
2022-03 features a juvenile oak tree with the
inscription, “LIBERTY BLOSSOMS.”

The inscription

“FREEDOM OF SPEECH” is included.
2023 portrays a mature oak tree with the
inscription, “LIBERTY BEARS FRUIT.”

The inscription

“FREEDOM OF THE PRESS” is included.
The artist submitted the following narrative
to illustrate how they would continue with set 10.
text format would remain the same.

The

In 2024, the design

would depict an arrangement of leaves on branches from
multiple distinct types of oak trees with the
additional inscription of, “LIBERTY SPREADS.”
And 2025 would portray a mature spreading,
strong oak tree that would be filling the space with
the additional inscription, “LIBERTY ENDURES.”
Set 11.

Set 11 features an inscription of the

relevant text of the First Amendment.

In terms of

protecting our freedoms, the courts, and ultimately the
Supreme Court, plays a vital role in our democracy.
The nine dots at the top of the design,

arranged in an arc like the Supreme Court justices’
seats, are a subtle nod to the nine justices in our
nation’s highest court who have carefully considered
the words in the First Amendment when making their
judgments.
2021 shows a woman with her hands on her
chest, a gesture meant to symbolize the beliefs one
holds metaphorically in one’s heart.

The modern

clothing hints that the design is a modern
interpretation of the First Amendment.

The inscription

“CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW RESPECTING THE
ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION” is included.
2022 depicts three figures representing
different aspects of our modern understanding of the
Freedom of Speech.

On the left, a woman emphatically

speaks, exercising the right to speak aloud thoughts
that others may not agree with.
In the center, a person hands out flyers and
literature, exercising a form of speech that is not
verbal.

On the right, a young man stands in defiant

silence, exercising his right not to speak.

The

inscription “CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW ABRIDGING THE

FREEDOM OF SPEECH” is included.
2023 highlights a piece of printed paper
bearing part of a controversial 1734 American song
which was printed in a newspaper.

The printer of this

newspaper was accused and tried by a grand jury for
libel.
While this trial took place before the Bill of
Rights was created, it laid the groundwork for the
development of the idea of the freedom of the press.
The inscription, “CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW ABRIDGING
THE FREEDOM OF THE PRESS” is included.
Set 11A, the designs all have the inscriptions
“FIRST AMENDMENT” and “LIBERTY”.

Also featured, in a

typeface similar to the handwriting in the original
Bill of Rights, the most identifiable word specifically
related to the freedom depicted within the design.

The

designs are identical otherwise to those in set 11.
Here we have 2021, 2022 and 2023.
Moving on to the portfolio of designs that
were created with a singular focus on the 2021 coin, or
"Freedom of Religion", we have design one that takes
its inspiration from Moses Jacob Ezekiel’s “Religious

Liberty” statue in Philadelphia.
Centrally featured is a depiction of Freedom
pointing upward declaring religious liberty.

The young

man, holding the burning torch of religion, represents
the genius of faith.

The scroll represents the power

of the Constitution and the eagle clutching a serpent
represents vanquishing tyranny through democracy.
Design two depicts Liberty watching as a
butterfly, symbolizing the freedom of religion, lands
on her hand.

The butterfly is used symbolically in

many religions because of its transformation from a
caterpillar, representing the soul, reincarnation,
resurrection and femininity.

The inscription “FREEDOM

OF RELIGION” is included.
Three and four feature gleaming candles
because light and fire are an ancient and central
symbol in many religions.

Candles are common to

temples and shrines and additionally figure prominently
in rituals.
included.

The inscription “FREEDOM OF RELIGION” is
Three, and design four.

Designs five and six depict a man with his
arms wide open, his stance representing a declaration

of faith.

The trees on the horizon represent the

growing establishment of different religions.

This is

design five and six.
Design seven depicts a stylized image of a
heart on fire that is framed within a silhouette of the
Liberty Bell.

The Liberty Bell represents freedom and

is the backdrop and foundation for the right of
American citizens to practice any religion.

The

inscription “FREEDOM OF RELIGION” is included.
Design eight places the text of the First
Amendment in a spiral form.

The spiral is one of the

oldest symbols and is embraced by and featured in many
cultures and religious traditions around the world.
It generally becomes an icon for nature,
cosmic wisdom and a universe in constant motion.

The

theme of motion is emphasized by the italic text
leading inward and the need to turn the coin in your
hand to read the text.
Design nine centrally features a hand
symbolizing a proclamation that this nation cherishes
and protects the legacy of religious freedom.

The

bluebird embodies the arrival of spring, emblematic of

new beginnings.

The lilac represents purity,

spirituality and eternal love.
Design 10 illustrates a harmonious grouping of
various attitudes of prayer, spiritual petition and
thanksgiving.

These religious freedoms are protected

by the First Amendment, and gives us the option of
choosing which spiritual path we decide to follow.

The

inscription “FREEDOM OF RELIGION” is included.
Design 11 depicts a traditional figure of
Liberty and floral symbols of various world religions
with the inscription “FREEDOM OF RELIGION."
Design 12 showcases a butterfly, symbolizing
the freedom of religion, and a purple coneflower.

The

butterfly again is used symbolically in many religions
because of its transformation from a caterpillar.

The

inscription “FREEDOM OF RELIGION” is included.
Design 13 again draws inspiration from Moses
Jacob Ezekiel’s “Religious Liberty” statue in
Philadelphia.

It depicts Lady Liberty and, on her

right, the young man as the genius of faith holding the
burning torch of religion.

The laurel and scroll

represent the power of the Constitution.

The eagle

clutching a serpent represents vanquishing tyranny
through democracy.
Design 14 depicts three hands -- three pairs
of hands in various gestures of prayer set against the
United States flag with the inscription “FREEDOM OF
RELIGION."
Design 15 features three sets of hands, coming
from three different directions, clasped in prayer
representing different directions from which people may
come, united by their freedom of religion.

In this

design, the most universal expression of religion is
illustrated, that of prayer, with the inscription added
“FREEDOM OF RELIGION."
Additional designs that artists shared that
could be standalone for the series, for "Freedom of
Speech," we received one.

This is a design for 2022

depicting the idea that speech is the expression of
thought that can change the world.
In this design, a solid brick wall is being
penetrated by the illumination of that thought, with
the inscription “FREEDOM OF SPEECH."
And finally, a design that came in, a

standalone design for 2023, that depicts a figure
utilizing an antique book press, with the inscription
“FREEDOM OF THE PRESS" included.
MS. WASTWEET:

Whew.

Thank you, April.

not sure where to start exactly.

I'm

But I do want to say

thank you so much for the effort put in here.

Even

though it's overwhelming, we appreciate all of the
effort.

And especially thank you for allowing us to

weigh in at this point.
MS. STAFFORD:

That goes to Vanessa, who

worked hard on this, a double portfolio.
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you, Vanessa.

It would

be heartbreaking if we saw these as a finished packet.
So it's great to be able to weigh in at this early
point.

I would like to -- I'll start the comments

myself.
I think first I want to say, when I'm looking
at all of these in general, the thought that I hold in
my head is that this is a platinum coin.
high price point.

It's a very

It's a little over $1,200.

And when

I think about as a collector, not as an artist or
sculpture or a designer, but as a collector, if I'm

going to pay $1,200 for a coin, it's got to be
beautiful.

It's got to really pull me in and say I

want to own that as a piece of art.
MR. MORAN:

She hit the nail on the head right

there.
MS. WASTWEET:
They're thoughtful.
graphic.

And a lot of these are clever.

They are descriptive.

They're

But they're not all beautiful and certainly

most of them would not entice me to pull $1,200 out of
my pocket.
So first, let's look at set number one.
think these are beautiful.

I do

What really puts me off

about these is that they look very Grecian.

And while

our Constitution and our government is greatly inspired
by the Ancient Greeks, I don’t necessarily feel it's
appropriate or desired by me in this program.
I would much rather see these figures clothed
in a more timeless fashion, more American.

Not

necessarily modern, but maybe something that could be
modern.

But I don’t like the Greek toga idea here.
The faces are beautiful.

I like the gestures.

I don’t -- I confess I don’t know which religions are

represented by the flowers.

I like the idea of it.

like the theme of the plants running through here.

I
I

especially like the freedom of press, her gesture, the
fact that she's holding, you know, a page.
hair.

I like her

I think this is a direction I would like to see

worked on some more.
The next set, number two, these may be
accurate.

They answer the call of what we want to

represent.

But honestly, they're not beautiful.

I

would not purchase them.
Set number three, again, clever.
something that I would call art.
illustration.

Not

I would call this

If these were chapters in a book about

these freedoms, that would make sense.
I'm not inspired to purchase that.

But as a coin,

It's drawn well,

well thought out, just not beautiful.
Set number four, I said this before.
it again.

I love to read books.

read articles.

I'll say

I read magazines.

I

I don’t really like to read poems.

Set five, these I also find really beautiful.
And again, we have this theme of Lady Liberty as
representing ideas.

And this may be the direction to

go.

So I ask that the Mint explore that a little more,

having Lady Liberty representing these ideas might be
the best idea.
I don’t like the words religion, speech and
the press.

I understand the reason for that, that it

was inspired by the Constitution and that original
handwriting.

Again, I don’t like how it runs over the

image.
I don’t think it's particularly legible,
especially press.

It looks like preps.

is not always going to work.

And accuracy

I would like those to be

incorporated in a different way.
I did like -- I do -- let me rephrase that.
think it's important that each coin say what it
represents, freedom of speech, freedom of religion and
not much more.
on here.

There's already a lot of required text

So I don’t think that it has room for

anything else.

But it is important to say what it

represents.
I think it's interesting that each one has
three women on it.

It's not necessary.

But it's an

interesting idea to try to do this triad, sort of the

I

three Graces in each one.
these again?

And what is the size of

Is this a one-inch?

MS. FRANK:

1.2

MS. LANNIN:

1.287.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:
MS. WASTWEET:

32.7 millimeters.

An inch and a quarter.

think it can carry that much information.
though.
accuracy.

All right.

So I

It's tight

Set seven, again, we have a lot of

Not much as far as what I would say fine

art, especially petition.

It's very literal.

Number -- for single number eight, or set
eight -- go back.

Yeah, the one with the bullhorn.

actually like this one.
the assembly.
very modern.

I

I like the hands representing

The woman looks very energetic.

It's

I'm not sure it rises to the level that I

would purchase it.

But I like the direction.

Let's

put it that way.
The acorn ones, set 10, I appreciate trying to
think out of the box.
for it.

I just don’t think I'm signed up

I think it's a little too stretching

symbolically.

Again, going back to our earlier

conversation about intention versus interpretation,

just because someone says this is what this represents
doesn't mean that that's what is received by the
viewer.

They're attractive.
Set 11, there's some really interesting things

going on here.
flat silhouette.

I like how the body fades into just a
This feels very modern, very

innovative.
Again, too much text going on here.
like that.

I like that, the nine circles.

like the third one.

It's just lettering.

think it rises to the price point.

I don’t

I don’t
I don’t

I keep coming back

to that.
And let's see what we have next.
AEP-01.

Yeah.

It's pretty.

The single

But I don’t think it

really nails the idea of religion.

And number two,

when I see a butterfly, I'm not familiar with this
symbol used in religion personally.

Maybe some others

are.
When I see the butterfly, I think of nature.
I think of a zoo or educating about the environment.
don’t think of religion.

It's a nice face though.

candles in my opinion are too simplistic.

I
The

Number five, it's not often that it works to
have the back of someone on a coin.
-- I'm not really moved by these.

And I don’t really
Number seven would

work on a smaller coin, maybe a nickel or something
like that.

I don’t think it works as a platinum and

it's very standalone.
Number eight I think is way too simple.
Number nine, again, I don’t get the symbology.
nice design.

But I don’t get it.

It's a

Number 10, so we

have a few -- 10 and 11, these are set up like they're
frames.
So again, if we're trying to rise to the level
of art, imagine going into an art museum and you see a
very beautiful, ornate frame.
in it.

But there's no painting

That's what this makes me feel like.

It's just

there's a border and there's no subject.
Number 12 is attractive but I don’t -- the
butterfly still doesn't work for me.

Number one, I

don’t think that is worth pursuing personally.
Twenty-one -- or 23-1, I really like this one,
not necessarily the text of the freedom of the press.
But I like the idea of it.

I like the flying pages.

I

like the symmetry.
looking.

It's a little old-fashioned

It'd be nice if there's something a little

more modern brought into the design.

I'd like to see

this same style applied to the other freedoms.
Personally I think that has some promise.
I think I've gone through the packet.
a lot to go through.
register this?

That's

So are we -- how are we going to

Are we voting on this?

MR. WEINMAN:

This is up to the group.

mean, you don’t have to.

I

Once again, we're not asking

for design recommendations.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:

For a decision.
You could, by motion, tell us

what you want us -- what you want the artists to
continue with, what you don’t.

We do have voting

sheets here for the -MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:

Or scoring, scoring sheets.
Scoring sheets for the sets and

for the individual designs that, once again, these are
tools.
us data.

And so, you could use them as tools to provide
And I'm happy to pass them out right now,

early on, if you want to utilize them that way.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:

Or we could use -Whatever you think is --

MS. WASTWEET:

We could use just the merit

column instead of going one, two, three.
MR. WEINMAN:

You could use merit columns.

That's entirely possible.

And it might be -- it might

be a valuable way of doing things.
MS. FRANK:

And if I may add, similar to what

Heidi did, also just letting us know which components
of it, you know, you would like dialed up or dialed
back.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I think -- I believe

that this is such a huge portfolio and so many designs,
the effort that went into this is tremendous.

I think

that the artists really worked hard to try and
interpret what we were hoping for.
Some of these are -- some of these designs I
believe are very innovative.

Some of them, as Heidi

pointed out, what would you want to spend your $1,200
or $1,500 on a platinum coin.
So when I look at these, I X a lot of them
because they're good -- they may be very good designs.

But I don’t think they answer that question or that
problem.
One little thing, I had to really look up
bluebird.

The little bird, you know, I'm kind of

thinking is this a hawk or a finch or what is it.
was just there in the corner.

Right there.

Please, bluebirds, you know, eat seeds.
have a very pointed beak.

It

They

This is not -- this is a

little hawk beak, a little bit of a shrike.

So if

you're kind of wanting this to be religion, you know,
we need to pay attention to what the symbol is that
we're using.
And I think that this is a lovely concept.
love the bird and the flowers.
cool.

I

I think that's very

But I don’t really think about this as being

religion -- you know, freedom of religion.
That's -- I mean, I could keep going.
MS. WASTWEET:

Yeah.

I just --

While you're -- just keep

going, yeah.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
do it this way.

Well, I really wanted to

Well, I'm just basing this on what we

are looking for in terms of we're not looking at a

quarter.
coin.

We're not looking at what I consider a public

I loved the -- I can't even talk about set four.

I loved the contemporary concept of set seven.
But then I'm going to back to what this coin
is in terms of monetary value.

And I guess I would

have to listen to our esteemed collectors.

And I wish

Donald Scarinci were here because he would probably
have a grand idea about what this whole project would
be about.

What is it that a collector wants?
And I think I'm going to turn this to Tom

because I think I probably will add some more thoughts
later because I think this session about these designs
is truly a time for discussion, not necessarily quite
yet for voting but jut to discuss.

And so, Tom,

please?
MR. URAM:

Well, I was just going to follow up

with what April said.

You know, are we looking at

these designs as it relates to sets or are we looking
at individual pieces of art for the designs.
And my thought as this whole series goes, this
series probably has the best designs that the Mint has
ever done.

You know, and unfortunately they only sell

1,400, 1,500, 2,500.

But yet, the preamble on all the

different series that have taken place in the platinum
series are just terrific.
You could use them as a quarter series really,
you know, to take some of these designs because they
were and are one of these best designs in topics as
well.
So having said that, I lean a little bit away
-- April, you had asked the question should we be
looking at sets or not.
like the acorn idea.

I did like set five.

I did

That was really different.

But I think I'd rather have the opportunity to
choose between different designs than to have three in
a row that are going to be looking nearly linear for
the most part.
So as the series goes, I would probably be
looking at changing -- or doing -- looking at more
different designs per year versus as a set.

Thank you,

Madam Chair.
MS. WASTWEET:

So to clarify, you don’t

necessarily feel the need to have one artist do the
whole set, but you like the set having more variety?

MR. URAM:

Correct.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I have -- I have -- yes.

I would like to see more of a variety.

I think that --

I don’t think that any one of these sets -- and some of
them are really very interesting and beautiful.
But I don’t think any one of these sets would
-- in my opinion captivates my imagination enough to
say, boy, I need five of these.

You know, maybe one.

I mean, I truly love Liberty blossoms.
great.

I think that's

And I love this whole set.
But I don’t know if I want another two of them

like this.

You know, and I don’t really think about

these as being a freedom of anything except a beautiful
execution of the oak -- phases of the oak tree.
MR. JANSEN:

If you recall back to the meeting

we had where we considered the artwork for life,
liberty and the pursuit of happiness, I think most of
the members here were here for that.
If I recall it correctly, that really went
down as follows.

Life, yeah, I see a lot of designs.

Liberty, yeah, pretty good.
one's tough.

Pursuit of happiness, this

I only really see one that does it.

I

like that one.
out of it?

Why don’t we do two and make a series

Ta-da.

So we backed into it.

And it

worked in that case.
But we certainly didn't set out to do it that
way.

And I think -- gosh, the pursuit of the best of

the idea is probably more important than the continuity
of a series.
Now, having said that, collectors love a
series.

If this was a circulating coin and there were

potentially numismatic sales of 40 or 50 or, God bless
us, 100,000 per, it might be worth emphasizing that.
But it's not.
So I kind of scribbled some thoughts here as
Heidi was speaking.

And so, rather than go design by

design, there is the question to the committee are we
looking for classical, and dare I say Greco, or are we
looking for modern, and dare I say graphical or
illustrative.
And I don’t hear a hard choice.

But what I

hear quite often is that Greco is kind of great if you
were in Teddy Roosevelt's time but probably doesn't
work so much now.

I'm hearing beautiful.

Now, I think

that is the case.

And Heidi highlighted the point that

if I'm going to spend this kind of money, I want that
kind of art.

So I actually broke it down to a

sophistication versus a casual.
Now, maybe that's a reiteration of classical
versus illustrations.

I'm not sure it is.

there's a subtle different there.

I think

I personally go for

sophisticated versus casual.
It's a relatively large palate.
sophisticated art.

It can carry

It can carry sophisticated relief.

And I think the price point demands sophistication.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. JANSEN:
too much text.

Yes.

What I'm constantly hearing is

Now, I think in these abstract concepts

-- now, "Freedom of the Press" may not be as abstract
as some of the other concepts we have here, such as
"Freedom of Religion."
It might be interesting to give some guidance
to allow limited text so that we don’t get one of these
series where it is essentially a textually delivered
message.

I don’t remember which item it was, like five

or six or something in here, set five.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. JANSEN:

Okay.

Four.
Where is it?

Just to make

sure my point is clear.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. MORAN:

Four.

MR. JANSEN:
MR. MORAN:

not medallic.

That's terrible.

Set four?

Okay.

Yes.

It's terrible.

MR. JANSEN:
doing medals here.

Four.

For instance -- okay, we're not

And the price point is definitely

And so, I think we probably -- again, I

don’t want to speak for the committee.
But what I constantly here is not so much, if
I dare use the pun.

Appropriate use of symbols and

metaphors, and the grossest example -- and by that, I
mean the just -- not gross in the ugly sense, gross in
the overarching sense -- is the oak set here.

Now,

last time I checked, oak was kind of a metaphor for -MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:

Strength.
Pardon me?
Strength.
Strength, endurance, exactly.

And yet, it's parlayed into each of these five

dimensions and makes great for continuity, but it kind
of is a miscast metaphor.

And so, somewhere along the

line, I'm hearing the committee saying don’t mix your
metaphors inappropriately.
And that may be lost on some people.
be guidance that they can't really grasp.

That may

But I think

that's the closest way I can give tight dimensionality
to this thing.

Those are my thoughts.

MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.
I will.

MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:
talking about.

Mary?

Who dares go next?

I'll go.
Thank you.

Because I have no idea what I'm

I actually like the oak.

MR. JANSEN:

There you go.

MS. LANNIN:

Yes, it's a symbol of strength.

But if I'm going to fork over $1,200 to $1,400, I want
something really classic, really clean, something with
a lot of negative space.

And it's an interesting

interpretation.
And I would like to see -- so this goes back
to having a whole series of five.

We can't just pick

"Freedom of Religion" and have that oak seedling and

then do something else, you know, for the rest of it.
So that kind of ties us into a five-year series.
MR. JANSEN:

Right.

And so, in that case, the

metaphor is not carrying the message.
MS. LANNIN:

But --

MR. JANSEN:

That's the whole point.

What you

just said is oak doesn't work for me across the board.
It works maybe once.
MS. LANNIN:

Let me finish my sentence, Erik.

MR. JANSEN:

Yeah, go ahead.

MS. LANNIN:

So, but what I'm trying to say is

that this is clean-looking.

It's something that

someone has put some thought into.

It's a different

way of looking at something.
The other series that I was intrigued with,
going back to the sophisticated series, is set number
five.

But that ties directly to the -- in my mind to

the series that we have just finished.

So it almost

looks like the we or the Mint said, okay, you've got it
all for the next eight years.

You know, so it's the

same kind of art.
But I do like the bold religion, speech, the

press.

I don’t dislike the sort of antique style of

the graphics of the words because they are taken from
that time period.

And they would match the other sets.

I do like the vision of the three women as
three Graces.

There's always an action figure, one or

more in those, so that to me -- those two sets are the
ones that really stuck out for me.
I think if we do people in modern dress, in
five years, all that's going to change.

I mean, like

the woman in her little button-up sweater, even though
her head sort of disappeared, that's a button-up
cardigan from like the '50s.

That's not modern to me.

The kid with the -- you know, for the "Freedom
of the Press" with a laptop and a cellphone, who knows
what our cellphones are going to look like by the time
we get to that coin.

Do you know what I'm saying?

So kind of going back to the fact that we are
a democracy and going back to a Greco-Roman style of
art on that, to me, that is worth paying $1,400 for,
not what something's concept of a cellphone is going to
look like or, you know, a megaphone or a radio dial
combined with those other things.

They just seem very

-MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:
approach.

Dated.
-- the kitchen sink kind of

So that's all I have to say about that.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. MORAN:

Thank you, Mary.

Oh, Heidi.

Let me get it over

with.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. MORAN:

Go.

I'll just start with set five

because it's up there.
continuity there.

Oh, Mike.

I think that there is

I like the fact that you bring in

the written word and you bring it in, in a late 18th
century style, particularly the double S of press
there.

That's straight from the German and Old

English.
We may get tired of the three figures over
time.

I don’t know that we ought to ask the artist to

lock in on that.

But I like that late 18th century

elegance that you see there.
Now, going back to set four for a contrast,
set -- maybe set three.

Here's one that has a theme

that goes across the board.

And it's out of whack.

I

mean, it's okay.
hands.
that.

It's nice.

But will it sell?

It's innovative about the

Because we've touched on

It's not going to sell.

marketable.

It's not really

I wouldn't spend anywhere close to

anything for that.

And way too much space is wasted

with the placards of freedom of the various freedoms.
Let's go forward to, what is it, maybe set
number six.

Yeah, that.

is what we don’t want.

Seven.

That's the one.

It's very trendy.

This

It may not

be appropriate by the time we actually coin it.
I'm particularly put off by "Freedom of
Speech."

If anything, that looks like the repression

of speech there.
We need to go back to again -- and what Mary
said -- the elegant style I think in order to match it
with what we've done in the past with the other series.
This is -- if you were to lay this up against the other
platinum that these collectors collect, this would be
jarring.
MR. TUCKER:

Mike, I'm sorry for interrupting.

But which set were you just talking about?
MR. MORAN:

Seven.

MR. TUCKER:
MR. MORAN:
set one.
there.

Okay.

Thank you.

All the way back to I think it was

I can't put my finger on what I don’t like
I finally got the idea of the flowers from the

various religions.
to me.

But it wasn't intuitively obvious

It had to be explained to me.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. MORAN:

It could work.

Yeah.
They need to sharpen that one up.

But it needs more work from the artist.

And the very last one that I'll go to, scroll forward
slowly.
I think it's three.
one.

Forget that one.

Just forget that one.

we've talked about that one.
inscriptions.
period.

It's definitely not that

That.

And

I'm back to

We're not in the inscription business,

I'm done, Heidi.
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you.

Dennis, are you

ready to go?
MR. TUCKER:

Yes.

Thank you.

I find myself,

as many of my colleagues are, focusing more on styles
rather than individual designs.

And I would like to

see one artist develop designs across the entire

program, you know, so we do have that coherent look and
feel.

And I think that would also help us avoid the

challenges of symbols being duplicated.
I just think we'll have a better portfolio if
we have a single artist working with continuity.

And I

think there's been a lot of good commentary about what
our collectors are going to expect and want to see.
I agree that the more illustration-based kind
of, you know, almost political campaign button type
approach of set three, for example, some of these other
-- some of these other design sets, they might make
good things like head openings, you know, thinking in
terms of book design.
But are they really -- like Mike said, do
these really great to the fabric or the tone of what
platinum coin buyers have bought in the past.

I think

that's a legitimate question to ask.
I don’t think that platinum is a metal that
will sell in greater quantities if we can just find the
right magic tone or style.

You know, I don’t think --

I don’t think that's what holds back the numbers.

You

know, the reason -- the reason that we only sell 5,000,

6,000, 7,000 of these coins rather than 70,000 or
80,000 is the price point.

It's not the style of the

fabric.
And I say that because I don’t think that we
could make this popular and therefore -- you know, make
popular designs and therefore create a popular audience
for these coins.

The price point is just too high.

So I think we keep it sophisticated.

We focus

our guidance for the artists on the styles we would
like to see rather than getting too nitpicky at this
point about what particular designs and symbols we'd
like to see.
You know, and I agree that five is a nice
look.

Set one is a nice look.

You know, these are in

keeping with what we've done in the past.
the acorns is a nice look.

Set 10 with

I think it fails on various

levels that we've discussed in the symbology, for
example.
But that would be the kind of broad brush
approach I would take to guiding our artists, focusing
more on style that we'd be looking for at this point.
MS. WASTWEET:

Any more to add, Dennis?

MR. TUCKER:

No.

I think that concludes my

comments.
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you.

Mary wants to add

something.
MS. LANNIN:
obvious.

I just, I mean -- I'm stating the

As a collector, we're all a little bit

obsessive-compulsive, you know, when we start with
something like that.
So I'm channeling Donald Scarinci, who can't
be here, who will buy the complete set of whatever we
do.

So it needs to kind of pass the Donald test where

we're not just sort of randomly taking a series of five
ideas and throwing different art against it.
And so, I'm really in favor of having a single
artist do the entire five series.

And the people that

have $1,200 or $1,400 -- look at it this way.

They're

going to have $6,000 almost invested in this series by
the time that we're done, depending on the price of
platinum.
So it's got to be really classically
beautiful.

It's got to be simple.

And I really don’t

think, at those prices, it can be a contemporary look.

I think we have to go back to the classical images and
what they represent in that series.

So that's my

little Donald speech.
MS. WASTWEET:

I think one area that might be

a disconnect between the committee and the Mint is you
hear us often say we want to see modern designs.
But when we say modern, we don’t mean
cellphones and laptops and fashion.

We mean modern in

an artistic sense of doing something different,
something innovative instead of just a figure on a
background incorporating negative space or negative
images or silhouettes or design threads, something
different rather than what we see over and over again.
So it's more of an innovation, a creativity,
that kind of modern, not like modern day technology.
think those are -- those designs that we're looking at
that are depicting modern day, they become quickly
dated instead of contemporary even.
So that's why these liberties tend to work a
little more because they are more timeless.

I'd like

to get a little out of the Ancient Greek realm but
still aim for a timelessness rather than a dated look.

I

MS. STAFFORD:

I know I included it to some

degree in the description, but I just wanted to revisit
a comment that a couple of members have said about
symbolism and whether it's being used appropriately.
I know that in the materials provided, and
perhaps we didn't do good enough a job in expressing
it, but I do know that the artist who created set 10,
for example, purposely used the oak for the strength
representation, representing our country and, you know,
the freedoms that make it strong and enduring and the
development from, as they put it, the seeds of our
nation, the Bill of Rights and all of that.
So perhaps we didn't word it or express it as
artfully as we might have.

But I just wanted to

revisit that because, in the materials submitted, it
was -MS. WASTWEET:

Yeah, I think --

MS. STAFFORD:

-- illuminated thoroughly.

MS. WASTWEET:

I think you described it well

and we understand the intention and how it's trying to
do two things to represent the strength of the nation,
but then also represent religion and speech and press.

And that's where it's a little thin.
MR. MORAN:

April, if I were to fault this

one, it was the artist's decision to restrict it
strictly to the oak tree.

Perhaps the theme of using

trees, but not necessarily oak for some of the others
might give them more flexibility.
MS. WASTWEET:

Another thing I'm hearing in

the group is that maybe it is a good idea to have one
artist do the set, but maybe a little more variety
within that single artist.
MR. JANSEN:

Yeah.

As I just began to peruse

these without digging in and going through them
systematically, what came to me was the -- as the oak
didn't work across the spectrum, hands would.
Hands did.

Several times, hands appear in the

special, the one-offs at the end as well as in a couple
of the series.

So maybe it's a look/feel that a single

artist carries.
But at the same time, you hate to commit a
series to one artist because, hey, what if, you know,
they go off the ranch.
through the series.

You're out of luck halfway

There is --

MS. WASTWEET:

And perhaps commit to either

one artist through the series or different artists for
each one rather than three by one artist, two by
another.
MR. JANSEN:

It's funny.

Best of breed seems

to most always win in life unless the value of the
incumbency, that is the true continuity is really where
the value is.
So I think we almost need to ask ourselves
that question upfront.

Is the -- is the -- are the

five elements hanging together as a piece of our
civilization, what really hangs this series together or
are each of the ideas needing to be razor sharp.
MS. STAFFORD:

That's exactly why we had to

bring you two portfolios, because we did not know that
answer.
MR. JANSEN:
Certainly.

Yeah.

No, certainly.

Certainly.

And I think we run many more chances to

disappoint ourselves, our audience, this process by
saying five have got to hang together because there's
going to be that one where you're, oh God, this is so
good.

I want that one in.

But that's got to kick out

one of the five.
MR. URAM:

Would the collectors want to have

the same stylistic tone across when they're buying
them?
MR. JANSEN:
would.

The engineers that are collectors

The rest of them, probably not.
MR. URAM:
MR. MORAN:

Right.
I think there are two things that

come out of this discussion.

One is that we like the

allegory, the concept of the various allegories.
The other is, as Heidi said, modern is not to
be interpreted as anticlassical.

I think we want a

classical figure in a modern way.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. MORAN:

Yes.

And those are the two overriding

comments that I get out of this.
MR. JANSEN:

Would it be your intention to

pick all five kind of in a rapid-fire sequence here or
are we -MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:
year and pick a third?

That's what they're asking us.
-- picking one or two and wait a

MS. STAFFORD:

Well, if the consensus is that

it's worth pursuing, you know, the long stretch goal of
having the interconnectivity across the five years -and we can certainly commit to bringing you a portfolio
or, you know, whether it's once or twice or a third
time, to select all five concurrently so you see the
set, we can do that.

That's what we did with "Life,

Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. STAFFORD:

So --

But at this stage, if we're

just not sure, because I'm hearing many, many people
say, yes, there is value in pursuing the synergy, a
common theme or convention across the five, have the
same artist's hand extend throughout, and then I hear
others saying but let's not miss, you know, having the
opportunity to really articulate the value of that
freedom and the expression that's unique in that one
annual theme.
So it might be that we don’t make that
decision here.

Maybe you send us back and we pick a

few of each and we come back again in March.

But

certainly by March we'll need to definitize a direction

and move on it.
MR. MORAN:

Let's go back a hundred years.

had three coins to be designed.

And we ended up with

two designers to do them, Wyman and McNeal.
Wyman for all three.
MR. JANSEN:
MR. MORAN:

We

Almost had

But they said enough is enough.
Yeah.
I certainly would be willing to

look at -- why do I get these phone calls now -anyway, I'm going to turn it over.

There we go.

It's

a junk call anyway.
I would be willing to look at three at a time
from some of these artists, following the guidelines
that we've laid down, but not with the stricture that
we choose one set of three but that we're allowed to
pick and choose across those.

And maybe we'll get one

from one or two from another or all three.
But it'll give us that little bit of
flexibility and then keep the ones that got honorable
mentions in the pool to go forward so that you've got
some continuity for the next two after that.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I know we have our

scoring sheets or our little papers here.

Is it

possible that today we could say out of these 11 sets
or eight sets that we have from different artists, that
these four artists are the ones that we would rather
look at further?

Is that -- is that kind of what

you're thinking.
MS. STAFFORD:

Any feedback.

You can go set

by set or design by design and say this is worth
pursuing.

Think about this concept.
Go back and revise, bring it back or you can

say let's set this aside.
this.

We're not interested in

And we could go through the whole portfolio very

quickly and let us know what we should revisit.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I think -- yeah, I think

that might be an easier thing for you folks, maybe not
for us, but, you know, to be able to say, yeah, we
think these are worthy of producing in platinum.
I think that's our key thing, is that we need
to look at them in platinum.

If we were looking at

them in silver metal, two-inch size, I'd have a
different opinion of some of these.

So that's -- I

just wanted to clarify that.
MR. TUCKER:

I think that's a good approach.

MS. LANNIN:

I have a technical question.

Can

we get -- can we get on the Internet and look at
something besides these so that I could show -- rather
than passing around my phone.
MS. STAFFORD:
MS. LANNIN:

Is that possible?

Yes.
Okay.

In Google, this is what I

mean by an ancient sort of design but brought into the
modern world.

Can you put in Georgia, as in the

country of Georgia, the number five and the word lari,
L-A-R-I?

And then just put wine.

And I'm saying that

only because it's -- I was just there.
I was able to, through great personal anguish,
find this coin.
them.

They only made a couple hundred of

But this is -- this is a really ancient concept.

But it looks totally modern.
MS. FRANK:

So can we do it or not?

Unfortunately the Mint is having

network issues right now, so I -MS. LANNIN:

Just like home.

Okay.

I will

pass -MR. MORAN:
MS. LANNIN:

Pass it around, Mary.
Okay.

I'll pass around my

cellphone and so we can take a look at this.

But this

is an ancient grapevine.

But it's the most modern-

looking thing you've ever seen.
And so, if we had the figures of liberty on
these platinum coins sort of interpreting -- you know,
an ancient concept interpreted in a modern way, that's
to me -- that's worth paying for.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. LANNIN:
I'm getting at.

That's right.

That design.

That is.

That's kind of what

I don’t need the robes and the -- you

know, all of that kind of stuff necessarily.
I just want a really ancient, basic human
concept in a really modern -- done in a really modern
way.

I think that's an absolutely gorgeous coin.
MS. WASTWEET:

Robert, you want to add

something?
MR. HOGE:
something.

I would.

I would like to say

First of all --

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. HOGE:

Microphone?

I would like to say something, yes.

First of all, Heidi, I agreed with everything that you
said when you were going through these pieces
individually.

I thought that number five was

particularly attractive, even though it did include the
typical classical garb for the three figures and that
idea of the three Graces.
But again, it's not really a modern treatment,
although the artistic representation is not as much
along the traditional lines.

Just a moment while I

take a look at Georgia's issue here.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. HOGE:
contradiction here.

Yeah.

Very nice.

Turn it sideways, Mike.
But what I'm hearing is a lot of
We like this idea of sets.

like having some continuity.

We

But the argumentation

I've heard is that, well, this isn't what is going to
sell the pieces.
These are so expensive that it isn't going to
make that much difference really what the art is,
whether it's in a set or not.

And I'm wondering why we

can't just have the best work by whatever artist for
whatever year.
I mean, give them some ideas of what could be
possible themes.

And these artists have done beautiful

work and they've caught the idea of getting a theme.
MS. WASTWEET:

Yeah.

I think if we have that

sort of idea where it's a different artist every year,
just the best of whatever, then I think we need to give
them a little more specific direction.
MR. HOGE:

Right.

MS. WASTWEET:

Right.

Exactly.

Like say we want to see a

modern representation of a classic allegory with the
word freedom of blah, blah, blah, so it's styled a
little more indirectly -MR. HOGE:

And we might even give --

MS. WASTWEET:

-- so we don’t have a hand on

one and an oak leaf on another and liberty on another.
MR. HOGE:

Right.

MS. WASTWEET:

So there's some continuity,

even though we have a variety of -MR. HOGE:

Exactly.

Exactly.

In this series

overall, I think I've seen a bit too much in the way of
the national symbolism, too many hands.

Seen too many

feathers today too.
It's sort of -- you know, birds are covered.
We've seen a lot of birds here.

I love birds.

If

they're going to be on a coin, platinum or whatever,
they need to be in context.

There needs to be some

kind of explanation.
And I think the idea of popularizing this
series, it's really going to be popular only if there's
really some beautiful work in them.
to echo what Gary March used to say.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. HOGE:

I mean, I'd like
We need beauty.

Yeah.

-- in these things.

highest quality possible.

We need the

And it could be that a

single artist would give us the whole series or in
every year, in every case he is the artist, he or she
that does the best work.
But I think that all the artists need to be
able to be in this competition each year.
MS. WASTWEET:

Yeah.

Do we have some

consensus that we like having a human element, rather
than just hands or -MR. URAM:

Hands on number seven.

MR. MORAN:

No, you're right.

MS. WASTWEET:
that we agree on.

Hands are --

So I'm looking for the things

I think we agree we don’t want a lot

of text.
MS. LANNIN:

Correct.

MR. HOGE:

Definitely.

MS. WASTWEET:

Do we agree we want it to say

the freedom of each thing?
MR. URAM:

Yes.

MS. LANNIN:
MR. MORAN:

Yes.
Yes, we have to.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. MORAN:

So we agree on that.

Human element.

MS. WASTWEET:

We want some modern feel to it,

without it being like cellphone, technology,
contemporary.
MS. LANNIN:

Right.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. URAM:

ideal example.

But like a modern --

Contemporary.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. HOGE:

Right.

-- application to the artwork.

I think what Mary showed us is an

It doesn't even include the human

element really.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. HOGE:

True.

And yet, it's very modern in its

presentation, even though it includes these classical
designs and themes in a modern way.

MS. WASTWEET:

Do we want this series to be

allegorical or are we kind of a little soft on that?
MR. HOGE:

Symbolic.

MS. WASTWEET:

Symbolic.

What else do we

agree on?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I think we should not

discourage the artist who did the wonderful -- I forget
which set that was with the -- set eight, if we can go
back.
I know -- well, this is so controversial
because it's so contemporary, so -- but I don’t want to
discourage this person because I think in -- you know,
freedom of speech, it really nails freedom of speech.
MS. WASTWEET:

I agree.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

And I think that -- and

also, freedom of the press, I love that.
contemporary.
much.

It's very

It's a lot of information, probably too

But this truly is contemporary.
Whether it fits the platinum series, I'm not

sure.

But I don’t want to discourage this person

because I think this was a brilliant idea, both of
these.

Both of these.

So the idea -- this was a very

contemporary freedom of speech.
This is what we're doing.

I mean, this is now.

This is so important.

And, you know, what is it that we want to say
in any of our coins?

You know, we keep asking think

out of the box, do this, do that.
we go back to what is safe.

They do it and then

So we're kind of at fault

I think at that.
But I do want to encourage this.

Now, whether

this particular -- I mean, these two -- I think these
are great.

I like these as well as I like the oak --

the oak -- this.

I think this is a different kind of

loveliness.
So these people I think we should encourage.
And I would like to send this back to the Mint.
those aren't the ones that we pick.

Maybe

But it's -- in my

opinion -- the direction we should go in so that we've
got people in one.
We've got, you know, allegory and symbolism in
another.
today.

And I don’t know if we should set the rules
I don’t -MS. WASTWEET:

rules.

Yeah, we don’t have to set

But maybe if we do have a consensus that sends

a stronger message.

That one that you were talking

about with the bull horn and the fists -- yeah, that
one.

this.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Yeah.

MS. WASTWEET:

I like the direction of

Yeah.

I wish it had a little more design element to

it, some other shape or form, texture, some other thing
-MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:

Well, I think --

-- to rise it to just the next

level.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

For me, you know, it's

like this is a contemporary woman.
the hair.

My God, you know,

You know, it's everything.

The clothing.

And, you know, I think that the space -- this element
is really addressed right.
But like I said, I don’t know if this is the
design that we need for this particular series.
it, in my opinion, is great.
our people.

anything?

So please pass that on to

Thank you.

MS. WASTWEET:

But

Tom, do you want to add

MR. URAM:

No, I'm done.

MS. WASTWEET:
DR. VIOLA:

Herman?

Well, I'd have to say I really

like what Mary had to say and I would support that.
REPORTER:

I'm sorry.

MR. WEINMAN:
DR. VIOLA:

I can't hear you, sir.

Microphones.
Oh, microphone.

hear what I have to say anyway.
Mary hit it quite well.

You don’t want to

So anyhow, I thought

And actually, I'm not a

collector.
I can't even believe spending this kind of
money.

So I'm a historian.

I write books.

But I

found this discussion quite fascinating and very
enlightening.

And I'd like to see some of this stuff

come to fruition.
So I really -- the artists are wonderful.
mean, set one is beautiful.

I

I mean, you know, I

wouldn't mind having those hanging on my wall.
So I do think I like the idea of trying to
have the best artists every time we come up rather than
have one person get the assignment.
many great artists out there.

I mean, there's so

So I would say, you

know, bon voyage with all of this.
MS. WASTWEET:

Yeah.

Needless to say, we

appreciate the difficulty of this task.
MS. LANNIN:
MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:
new AIP artists.

I have a question.
Yeah.
We're going to be getting some

Are they going to be able to weigh in

on any of these?
MS. STAFFORD:

In March.

They will not be on

-MS. LANNIN:
MS. WASTWEET:

Okay.
Yeah.

Thanks.
Do you feel like you

have enough feedback or would you like us to fill out
the forms?
MS. STAFFORD:

Well, if it's not too much

trouble, I just think the data points of having which
ones are getting some support might be helpful as we -it would just be another data point.
MS. WASTWEET:

Okay.

MS. STAFFORD:

So is it --

MS. WASTWEET:

Is it enough if we just check

the merit box instead of trying to go one, two, three

on each?
MS. STAFFORD:

Sure.

MS. WASTWEET:

Okay.

MR. JANSEN:

So you walk out of here with, of

the 11 sets, this one scored the highest, this one
scored the second highest, blah, blah, blah?

Is that

helpful?
MS. STAFFORD:

Or --

MS. WASTWEET:

I'm suggesting we just mark the

merit boxes.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

The merit, just the

merit.
MR. JANSEN:

Just merit, so that people can

continue -MR. MORAN:

The merit --

MR. JANSEN:
right.

All right.

All right.

All

All right.
MS. WASTWEET:

For those that you think should

be revisited.
MR. JANSEN:

So it's the same thing.

Essentially you're going to be able to stack them up by
merit.

MS. STAFFORD:

Right.

You wouldn't be

offended if you saw them again in March.
MR. JANSEN:
MS. STAFFORD:

Great.
And then, if I can ask, so at

least what I'm hearing is that there isn't a clear 100
percent definitized direction on let's go with
individual years versus sets.
I'm hearing still like pros and cons, which is
fine.

We can still do both.

Certainly you've given us

good feedback on the sets and also on the individual
ones, which elements you're gravitating towards.
I think that's great feedback for the artists.
If we do have artists develop individualized designs
for the particular annual themes, do you want us to
have them design into their competition, for want of a
better expression, a template of sorts or what have you
to address?
I know that there's been a lot of commentary
about liking a singular word that represents the
freedom, press, religion, speech, so that at least we
can have offerings of maybe at least that that could
extend beyond the series.

MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

MS. STAFFORD:

Then you'd have various

templates that you could discuss at the next meeting.
MR. MORAN:

Which sheet are we scoring, guys?

MS. STAFFORD:
MR. JANSEN:
MR. MORAN:

Both.
So the legal size is the sets.

Both?

MS. STAFFORD:

For merit.

give them individual scores.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. MORAN:

You don’t have to

Just -No, this is like --

I'm just going to squiggle some.

Yeah, but -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

I'm just going to --

I'm just -- I'm putting X's by

the -MR. WEINMAN:

This is the ultimate example of

these sheets being a tool.
MR. MORAN:

Oh, it's a tool all right.

MR. WEINMAN:

In this case, you can use them

any way you prefer.
MS. WASTWEET:

You could -- you could even --

you could write notes on individual ones if you want

to.
MR. MORAN:

Like --

MR. WEINMAN:

It gives us -- i's a way of

giving us some feedback based on these designs.

If you

just want to check merit boxes, that gives us some data
points to work with.
MS. WASTWEET:

Okay.

Is there any other

MS. STAFFORD:

One second.

MS. WASTWEET:

Has everyone had their say?

business?

MR. WEINMAN:

They're busy.

They're busy

checking.
MS. WASTWEET:

Everyone's busy.

Okay.

So if

there's no other business, I will thank you all for
your participation and for helping me stay on time.
And I'm out of my element being the chair.
Thank you, Mary.

I hope you're back in the

chair's seat next meeting.
MS. LANNIN:

I'm proud of you.

I'm proud of

you.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:

Thank you, and that's a wrap.
Ask for a motion to dismiss.

MS. WASTWEET:
dismiss.

Oh.

I need a motion to

Robert?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. HOGE:

I move.

So moved.

MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. WEINMAN:

Second?
I'll second it.
So we're adjourned.

We are

adjourned.
MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:
MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. STAFFORD:

We are adjourned.
There we go.
Thank you.
Very good, Heidi.
Very good, Heidi.
Vanessa or I will take your

score sheets.
MR. TUCKER:

Thanks, everyone.

Thanks, Greg,

for your --

(Whereupon, at 3:46 p.m., the meeting was
concluded.)

* * * * *

CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC
I, NATALIA THOMAS, the officer before whom the
foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby certify that
the proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter
reduced to typewriting under my direction; that said
proceedings are a true and accurate record to the best
of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither
counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the
parties to the action in which this was taken; and,
further, that I am not a relative or employee of any
counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor
financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of
this action.

NATALIA THOMAS
Notary Public in and for the
District of Columbia

CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER

I, BENJAMIN GRAHAM, do hereby certify that this
transcript was prepared from audio to the best of my
ability.

I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed
by any of the parties to this action, nor financially
or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action.

October 24, 2018
DATE

___________________
Benjamin Graham