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Page 1 CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE PUBLIC MEETING CONDUCTED BY TOM URAM, CCAC CHAIR TUESDAY, OCTOBER 15, 2019 9:30 A.M. UNITED STATES MINT 2ND FLOOR CONFERENCE ROOM 801 9TH STREET, NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20220 (866) 564-9287 REPORTED BY: Nate Riveness, Notary Public JOB No.: 3561059 Page 2 A P P E A R A N C E S CCAC MEMBERS: Tom Uram, Chairman Sam Gill Robert Hoge Dr. Dean Kotlowski Mary Lannin Robin Salmon Jeanne Stevens-Sollman Dennis Tucker U.S. MINT: April Stafford, Chief, Office of Design Management Pam Borer, Program Manager, Office of Design Management Roger Vasquez, Program Manager, Office of Design Management Vanessa Franck, Program Manager, Office of Design Management Joe Menna, Chief Engraver Greg Weinman, Counsel to the CCAC Jennifer Warren, Liaison to the CCAC Page 3 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd) Michael White, Public Affairs Specialist, Office of Design Management LIAISONS - NAVAL HISTORY AND HERITAGE COMMAND: Charles E. Brodine, Jr Richard Hulver, Ph.D. Gale Munro ALSO PRESENT: Mike Unser, Coin News, via telephone Page 4 I N D E X PAGE Welcome and Call to Order 5 Acceptance of Minutes and Letters from Previous Meeting 6 Review and Discussion of Candidate Designs for the 2020 Women's Suffrage Centennial Silver Medal 8 Review and Discussions of Candidate Designs for the 2021 American Liberty 24K Gold Coin and Silver Medal 75 Review and Discussion of the Candidate Designs for the 2021 United States Navy 2.5 oz. Silver Medal 112 Review and Discussion of Candidate Designs for the 2021+ "George Washington Crossing the Delaware" Quarter 153 Page 5 P R O C E E D I N G S MR. URAM: Good morning, everyone. I'd like to call the meeting of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee for Tuesday, October 15th, 2019, to order. It's 9:30. And before I begin I'd like to introduce the members of the Committee that are here. And please respond present when I call your name. Sam Gill? MR. GILL: Present. MR. URAM: Robert Hoge? MR. HOGE: Present. MR. URAM: Dr. Dean Kotlowski? DR. KOTLOWSKI: MR. URAM: Mary Lannin? MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Present. Present. Michael Moran? Absent. Robin Salmon? MS. SALMON: MR. URAM: Present. Donald Scarinci? Absent. Jeanne Stevens-Sollman? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. URAM: Present, yes. Dennis Tucker? Page 6 MR. TUCKER: MR. URAM: CCAC. Present. I'm Tom Uram, Chairman of the Today's -MR. WEINMAN: MR. URAM: Noted that we do have a quorum. And thank you. Today's agenda of the CCAC includes review and approval of the letters of the secretary and the minutes from our September 18th meeting, a review and discussion of the obverse and reverse candidate designs for the 2020 Women's Suffrage Centennial Silver Medal, a review and discussion of the obverse and reverse candidate designs for the 2021 American Liberty 24k gold coin and silver medal. We will also review and have discussion of the obverse and reverse candidate designs for the 2021 United States Navy two-and-a-half ounce silver medal. We will have a review and discussion of reverse candidate designs for the 2021 and beyond "George Washington Crossing the Delaware" quarter. Before we begin our proceedings today are there any members of the press in attendance or on the phone? If there are would you -- anyone on the phone Page 7 from the press please introduce yourself. MR. UNSER: MR. URAM: Okay. Mike Unser with Coin News. Mike, thank you. Anyone else? Mike, thank you. Finally for the record I'd like to also acknowledge the following Mint staff that are participating in today's public meeting. April Stafford, Chief, Office of Design and Management; and program managers from that office include Vanessa Franck, Megan Sullivan, Pam Borer, and Roger Vasquez. MR. WEINMAN: And actually Megan's not here today. MR. URAM: note of that. Megan's not here so we'll make a Okay. Also joining us today is Joe Menna, the Chief Engraver of the United States Mint -Joe, good morning -- Jennifer Warren, our liaison to the CCAC, and our counsel to the CCAC Mr. Greg Weinman. So I'd like to begin with the Mint. Are there any other issues that need to be addressed at this time? Okay. MR. WEINMAN: I don't think so. No, sir. Page 8 MR. URAM: The first item on the agenda is the review and approval of the minutes and secretary letters from our last meeting. Are there any comments? Hearing none, is there a motion to approve the minutes and letters? MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: So moved. Second? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. URAM: Second. We have a motion by Mary and a second by Jeanne, okay. I need a vote. All those in favor signify saying aye. (A chorus of ayes.) MR. URAM: Opposed? Motion carries. We now turn to the business of the Committee. April Stafford, the Chief of the Mint's Office of Design Management, will now present the obverse and reverse candidate designs for the 2020 Women's Suffrage Centennial Silver Medal. April, thank you. MS. STAFFORD: MR. URAM: Yes, thank you. Good morning. Okay. Page 9 MS. STAFFORD: Good morning. In 1920 the 19th Amendment became part of the United States Constitution. So 2020 marks the centennial of the ratification of this amendment which states: "The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation." Suffragists conducted over 900 local, state, and federal campaigns over many decades. The cause of women's suffrage was embraced by a diverse population of women across a number or organizations. Although the women came from a variety of backgrounds, they were brought together through their advocacy. The work of the suffragists in the late 19th and early 20th centuries allows women of today to exercise their right to vote. The United States Mint worked with members of the Women's Suffrage Centennial Commission or WSCC in the development of the portfolios presented today. The historic portfolio that focuses on events Page 10 leading up to and the ratification of the 19th Amendment and the modern portfolio which focuses on the impact of the 19th Amendment looking to today and into the future. The WSCC felt that portraying suffragists on the obverse of the medal would best represent this important centennial. Designs that portray multiple suffragists and/or a diverse representation of suffragists are preferable. Designs that feature the text of the 19th Amendment on the reverse were preferred as a complement to the suffragists on the obverse. We will highlight designs they noted as most suitable as we review the portfolios today. The Women's Suffrage Centennial Silver Medal will be produced for sale in 2020 only; however, in 2021 the medal may also be produced in the traditional 3 inch and inch-and-a-half bronze versions. These national medals are intended to be part of the United States Mint's medal collection in perpetuity and are not subject to individual or program mintage levels. We'd like to note that there is pending Page 11 legislation for a 2020 commemorative silver dollar commemorating the ratification of the 19th Amendment. We therefore ask for a dual recommendation from this Committee from these portfolios. One set of designs that could be a coin or a medal should the legislation not be signed into law that commemorates the ratification of the 19th Amendment, the second set of designs would be utilized if the coin legislation is enacted for a medal that would complement and extend the story told on the commemorative coin. The recipient organization for the 2020 commemorative silver dollar if enacted would be the Smithsonian Institution's American Women's History Institute. The Mint conferred with representatives from the Smithsonian to include Julissa Marenco who is both the Smithsonian Institution's assistant secretary for communication and external affairs and a member of the WSCC with whom we have been corresponding. We will note the Smithsonian Institution's feedback during the portfolio review as well as any comments that they included from the Smithsonian's Natural Portrait Gallery and the National American Page 12 History Museum. Please note that inscriptions including "2020," "liberty," "in God we trust," "United States of American," and "e pluribus unum" will have to be added to the designs should a commemorative silver dollar come to fruition. So first we will start with the historic portfolio obverses and then we're going to click again and show you the highlighted designs that have received positive feedback from our contacts with the WSCC as well as the Smithsonian Institution. We'll call these out as we move through the portfolio. Okay. So starting with obverse designs, Observe 1 and 1A feature overlapping profiles of three women showing different ages and ethnicities. Each woman is wearing a different type of hat to symbolize the many decades the suffrage movement spanned. The figure in the foreground is wearing a cloche hat with an art-deco pattern and a button with the year of the 19th Amendment's ratification. In the Historic Portfolio Obverse 1 seen here the figure on the left is wearing glasses and in 1A those glasses Page 13 have been removed. Design 1A seen here was noted as suitable by both the WSCC and our contact at the Smithsonian Institution. From the Historic Portfolio Obverse 2 this design features three women representing different eras of the suffrage movement. The figure at the left is circa 1860, in the center circa 1890, and the figure at the right is circa 1917. "Women's suffrage centennial" and "100 years" are inscribed. Design 2 was noted as suitable by the WSCC and by our contact at the Smithsonian Institution. And this feedback was provided by the National Museum of the American -- of American History and the National Portrait Gallery. They actually suggested pairing this design with Reverse 6 -- I'm sorry, excuse me, Reverse 9. Obverse 3 and 3A depict a suffrage march. The woman carrying the banner evokes Lady Liberty with her classic profile, but she is one of millions of working women from her traditional hairstyle to her working clothes and rolled-up sleeves. There were several groups of women who did Page 14 not immediately benefit from the ratification of the 19th Amendment as represented by the two figures arm in arm. These historically overlooked women marched and worked for suffrage despite having a longer journey until they obtained suffrage themselves. Design 3's banner features the inscription "votes for women" seen here. "women's suffrage." And 3A's banner reads Design 3A was noted as suitable by our contacts at the WSCC and Design 3 was noted as suitable by our Smithsonian Institution contact via feedback provided by the National Museum of the Amer-- of American History. Obverse 4 showcases a picketer proudly wearing the cross-body banner of the suffragists as she stands outside the gates to the White House while a picketer passes out leaflets. The National Women's Party organized the first picketing in January 1917. Suffragists stood at President Woodrow Wilson's gates on and off throughout the year. Even as the United States entered World War I the National Women's Party continued to picket in front of the White House. "Achieving suffrage" and "the right to vote 1920" are Page 15 featured inscriptions. This design was noted as a suitable design by feedback from the Smithsonian Institution provided by the National Museum of American History. Obverse 5 depicts a figure to recall the 1913 march on Washington, D.C., among other suffrage parades, demonstrations, and events of the period. With her confident stride she represents all of the women who assisted in the efforts to provote -- to promote voting rights. Her resemblance to the famous Walking Liberty coin is intentional casting this suffragist as a kind of real-life Lady Liberty. "Liberty" and "1920 to 2020" are inscribed. Design 4, this design, was noted as suitable by our Smithsonian Institution's contact specifically from feedback by the National Museum of American History. Oh, I apologize. This is, sorry, Design 5 as seen here is noted by contacts at the National Museum of American History as a suitable design. Design 6 shows a woman submitting a ballot in a ballot box. The ballot has "votes for women" inscribed on it to symbolize the victory of the Page 16 movement. The design style is indicative of the time period's use of angles in art and design. Design 6 was noted as suitable by the National Portrait Gallery who paired it with Reverse 1. Obverse 7 portrays a determined suffragist from the early 1900s and signs with the word "vote." Highly organized public marches helped draw attention to their cause. Signs carried by suffragist marchers played a large part in the movement. "Women's suffrage centennial" and "1920 to 2020" are inscribed. Observe 8 depicts a women voting as if for the first time following the passage of the 19th Amendment. Next to the ballot box is a fountain pen to represent both voting rights and freedom of speech. The inscriptions "women's suffrage" and "1920 to 2020" are included. Obverse 9 depicts a lone suffragist holding a large banner. She's flanked on either side by a group of fellow suffragists in silhouette who collectively symbolize the millions of American women who had long been disenfranchised until the 19th Amendment was Page 17 passed in 1920. All right. Moving onto the reverse designs for the historic portfolio. You see there the candidate designs and we have -- we will outline the designs that were identified as suitable by our contacts as the WSCC as well as the Smithsonian Institution highlighted there for you. So from the historic portfolio reverses, Reverse 1 shows 2020 being dropped into a ballot box styled with art-deco elements to indicate the artistic style of the era. "Votes for women" is inscribed inside the circle. This design was noted as suitable by the National Portrait Gallery who paired it with Obverse 6. Reverse 2 features text from the 19th Amendment combined with popular suffrage buttons of the time. The button 35 refers to the number of states it took at the time to ratify the amendment. "19th Amendment" and "August 26, 1920," are inscribed. This design was noted as suitable by the WSCC and our contact at the Smithsonian Institution Page 18 including the National Museum of American History. From the Historic Portfolio Reverse 3 and 4 feature text from the 19th Amendment besides suffragists from different eras of the movement. Design 3 seen here and 4 were noted as suitable by our contacts at the National Museum of American History while Design 4 seen here is noted as suitable by the WSCC and our contact at the Smithsonian. Historic Reverse 5 and 5A depict a close-up view of a suffragist holding a sign while marching in protest. Her hands are tightly clinched conveying the defiance and resolve of the suffrage movement and their decade's long fight to win the right to vote for women. Reverse 5 features the inscription "19th Amendment Centennial" as well as "1920 and 2020" and 5A features the text from the 19th Amendment. Designs 5 and 5A were noted as suitable by our contact at the Smithsonian including Design 5A seen here being noted as suitable by the National Museum of American History. Reverse 6 features the text "votes for women" surrounded by roses. It is based on a common lapel Page 19 pin which was worn during the suffrage movement. The roses both mature and young, vines and thorns represent the beauty, growth, and power of all women. E pluribus unum incused on a banner is included to emphasize the message of strength coming through the unity of diversity. "19th Amendment" and "August 26th, 1920," are inscribed at the top and bottom of the design respectively. Reverse 7 and 7A portray a woman in armor on horseback. of Arc. We're calling the historical figure Joan Joan of Arc was an important icon during the suffrage movement. 7A features text from the 19th Amendment. Reverse 8 shows a woman's 1920-style hate with a rose, ballot, and striped fabric fan like those many women wore during marches. incused into the ballot. The word "vote" in Around the hat are scattered stars that are meant to connote confetti that may have been used in celebration of the ratification of the 19th Amendment. The inscription "victory" is arced across the bottom of the design. Reverse 9 prominently features the sunflower. Page 20 While Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony campaigned in Kansas they adopted the state flower, the sunflower, as a symbol of the cause. The statement "votes for women" was commonly used on banners, sashes, and pins. This design from the Historic Portfolio Reverse 9 was identified as suitable by the National Portrait Gallery who paired it with Obverse 2. From the Historic Portfolio Reverse 10 portrays the Wesleyan Methodist Church located in Seneca Falls, New York, where the Women's Rights Convention took place in 1848. The church is surrounded by 19 stars representing the 19th Amendment. The inscription "Wesleyan Methodist Church, Seneca Falls, New York," and "1848" are depicted at the bottom of the design. Reverse 11 depicts an elevation view of the Wesleyan Methodist Church. Below the chapel are the inscription -- inscriptions "Wesleyan Methodist Church first convention for women's rights" and "July 19th, 1948." Reverse 12 features a representation of Nike, Page 21 the Greek goddess of victory and strength striding confidently forward toward the future. She is identifiable by her wings and the laurel leaves. The inscriptions "women's suffrage centennial" and "1920 to 2020" are included. And finally the last reverse from the historic portfolio, Reverse 13, essentially features a woman in armor reminiscent of Joan of Arc fighting for change. Joan of Arc was a symbol for women's rights during the suffrage movement. She once said, "Rather now than tomorrow and tomorrow than the day after." This statement embodies the persistence of women in the suffrage movement. Inscribed on a banner in the design is "rather now than tomorrow." Additional inscriptions include "women's suffrage" and "2020." Moving onto a portfolio in which the artists were asked to have a more modern focus. These are the designs and then you'll see the highlights ones that our contacts identified as suitable. And, again, we'll identify them as we go through the portfolio. Starting with the modern portfolio obverses. Obverse 1 depicts an allegorical tableau of a young, Page 22 African American woman offering a rose to a female child and historic suffragist holding a large American flag. The design is meant to represent the various generations of women's suffrage connecting the original suffragists to the modern generation. The inscription "1920 to 2020" is included. This design was noted as suitable by the WSCC and our contacts at the Smithsonian Institution including the National Museum of American History. From the modern portfolio, Obverse 2 features three generations of women representing the multitudes of women who have been impacted by the passage of the 19th Amendment. A shooting star and the inscription "continuing the dream" pays tribute to the book Dreams by Oliver Schreiner that was a source of inspiration for the suffragists. Additional inscriptions are "19 Amendment" and "the right to vote shall not be denied on account of sex." This design, Design 2, was notable -- was noted as suitable by the WSCC. From the modern portfolio, Obverses 3 and 3A show the faces of modern women diverse in age and Page 23 background. In Obverse 3 inscriptions of "we the people" and "XIX" referring to the 19th Amendment in Roman Numerals are included. Obverse 3A features the inscriptions "women's suffrage centennial" and "1920 to 2020." Design 3 was identified as suitable by the National Portrait Gallery who paired it with Reverse 1 and noted that they felt it was a very strong pairing. And Design 3A was noted as suitable by our contact at the Smithsonian Institution including feedback from the National Museum of American History. From the modern portfolio, Obverse 4 depicts a diverse group of young American women who are able to use their voice through voting due to the 19th Amendment. The text of the 19th Amendment arcs across the top of the design and at the bottom of the design are the inscriptions "women's suffrage centennial" and "1920 to 2020." I apologize. I'd like to ask our Committee members to refer to their portfolios that they have in front of them. Our presentation here in front of you is missing this design. Page 24 So modern portfolio, Observe 4 which you should refer to in your hard copy materials was identified as suitable by the national Portrait Gallery who paired it with Reverse 9 from the historic portfolio. And it was also identified as suitable from our contact at the Smithsonian Institution including feedback by the National Museum of American History. Moving onto modern portfolio, Obverse 5. This design depicts an older woman remembering the struggles of a past gone by while a young girl at her side looks directly the viewer depicting an innate strength and confidence for the future of young generations of women. Behind the two figures is the text of the 19th Amendment and below them is the inscription "1920 through 2020." Obverse 6 portrays two figures engaged in a parade, a young, African American mother holding the hand of her young daughter. The women carries the same version of the American flag which was used during the original suffrage marches in 1914 making a direct connection with those original demonstrators. Page 25 The child's posture suggests that the path ahead is bright, though it's hard to discern so she shields her eyes. This design includes the additional inscriptions "19th Amendment," "1920 to 2020," and "women's suffrage." From the modern portfolio of obverses, Obverse 7 depicts a sunflower adopted as a symbol of hope and positivity by suffragists. Within the center of the flower are the inscriptions "women's suffrage," "19th Amendment," and "1920 to 2020." Obverse 8 depicts the hands of women of various ages taking hold of a vote card. The field is split by a polished, flowing river design that shows the passage of time. The inscriptions "women's suffrage centennial" and "1920 to 2020" surround the design. This design was noted as suitable by our contacts at the Smithsonian Institution including the National Museum of American History. Moving onto the modern portfolio reverses, again, we've highlighted the designs that have been identified as suitable by our multiple contacts and Page 26 we'll highlight them as we move through the reverses. Starting with the modern portfolio, Reverse 1. This design honors the women's suffrage movement through juxtaposing the text of the 19th Amendment ratified in 1920 with the flag of the United States. "1920" is inscribed. This design was noted as suitable by the WSCC and the National Museum of American History as well as the National Portrait Gallery who paired it with Obverse 3 noting that this was the strongest pairing in their opinion. Reverse 2 features a suffragist with a "votes for women" sign, a shooting star, and the inscription "follow the dream." A nod to the book Dreams by Olive Schreiner; is that correct? UNKNOWN FEMALE: MS. STAFFORD: Yes. Although not a book that was inspired by -- that inspired the early suffragists. "Women's suffrage centennial" and "1920 to 2020" are also inscribed. All right. Let's move on. All right. From the modern portfolio Reverses 3, 3A and 3C feature a Page 27 reaching child's hand amid adult women's hands and arms holding up a heavy weight. of stone. A kind of foundation Women's suffrage was a struggle that continued across generations with countless hands turn to the task. So the Modern Portfolio Reverse 3 which I'll ask the Committee to refer to your hard copy materials has the inscription "suffragium pro omnibus" and it's translated as "the vote for everyone" which is also inscribed in the Modern Reverse 3A seen here. The Modern Reverse 3C features the inscription "the right to vote shall not be denied on account of sex." This design from the modern portfolio, Reverse 3C, was noted as a suitable design by our contact at the Smithsonian Institution including the National Museum of American History. From the modern portfolio, Reverse 4 shows the hand of a senior woman holding a ballot along with the text from the 19th Amendment. The Roman Numerals refer to the amendment. This design was noted as suitable by our contacts at the National Museum of American History. Page 28 From the modern portfolio, Reverse 5 depicts a badge with the 19th Amendment centennial dates inscribed across a banner, the words "19th Amendment centennial" encircle the design. Reverse 6 portrays the sunflower, a symbol adopted by suffragists. It adorns an art-nouveau styled border, a popular style during the 1920s when the 19th Amendment passed. The inscriptions are "women's suffrage," "19th Amendment," and "1920 to 2020." And finally from the modern portfolio, Reverse 8 depicts a prominent location for suffrage -suffragists' protests, the northwest gate to the White House. The gate is open representing accessibility granted to women voters through the ratification of the 19th Amendment. Arcing across the top of the design is the inscription "the 19th Amendment to the United States Constitution" and the text of the amendment is centrally featured. The additional inscriptions "1920 to 2020" and "ratified August 18th, 1920" are included. Design 8 was noted as suitable by our Page 29 contacts at the Smithsonian Institution, specifically the National Museum of American History. That concludes the portfolio, Mr. Chairman. MR. URAM: done. Well, April, thank you. Well And you get a well-deserved little break here. MS. STAFFORD: Yes. And I apologize for those missing designs. MR. URAM: That's fine. Thank you. Okay. Before we go on are there any technical questions before we discuss our designs and begin our general discussion? Okay. consideration. Seeing none, let's begin with our And I'd like all members, as usual, to try to keep to the five minutes or less as appropriate. Let's begin with Dr. Dean Kotlowski. Dr. Dean? DR. KOTLOWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's an honor to be able to go first today. We have a very rich and stimulating collection of coins across the board beginning with women's suffrage -- proposed women's suffrage medal. I'd like to begin by talking about the coin Page 30 that I -- the designs that I think are most evocative and then move on maybe in chronological order. So my attention was immediately captured by number 5. And number 5 here -- and you can see that up on the screen -- is very evocative and respectful of the A.A. Weinman coin the Walking Liberty half dollar. And it is also evocative and respectful of the way in which women campaigned to receive the right to vote in the latter stages of this movement which was to appropriate and to redefine the way they were represented in public spaces. So you have a lot of -- and earlier in the 19th century and even ongoing in this period you would have women being depicted as -- in parades as Lady Liberty and sometimes they wore sashes that denoted specific states. If we were to look at American popular culture I think of the film and the musical The Music Man and of the exercises on the 4th of July and Mayor Shinn's wife was standing there dressed as the Statue of Liberty or Lady Liberty. And the suffrage parade -- and, again, this Page 31 is I think referred to 1913. There were so many suffrage parades where women carried the banner and they had the sash. It is also evocative of a cover - - which, again, uses the famous photograph -- cover of a book by a woman named Sara Evans called Born For Liberty which is kind of a class women's history textbook for college-level students about -- oh, say, about 30 years ago. So I really, really like that. I like the cleanness and the simplicity of the design. And I think it would pair very well with some nice reverses that might be a little bit more explanatory and more words in terms of what's going on. So a lot of these designs I liked a lot. I did like Design 1A and I'm pleased to see that that was deemed acceptable by my colleagues at the Smithsonian. I think it's very stylish, I think it's very artful. I'm not sure that it conveys the kind of -- the sort of struggle that you think of in terms of the protest of the movement, but it's -- you know, it's very evocative and it's very -- it's very catching to the eye. And, again, carried with the Page 32 proper reverse I think it could work. I'm going to go a little bit out of order. like 2 and 4. I I think 2 and 4 have a lot of similarities and they seem to be by the same artist so I think that they would work. This is a little bit of the writer in me the idea of tautologies. have women's suffrage centennial. With 2 you I'm not sure you need 100 years because you said centennial, but that space could be opened up for something else. And same thing with -- same principle with number 4 achieving suffrage. Well, suffrage is the right to vote so maybe something like 1920 - 2020. But I like number 4 because that protest in front of the White House in 1917 was very, very important and I like seeing that represented. 3 and 3A did a little less for me. that it's not quite as evocative. banner. I think She carries a Again, a little bit of redundancy here. sashes also say "votes for women." The Maybe women's suffrage for 3A is a little bit better. I thought it was a little bit more simplistic, a little more elemental. And I don't have a problem with it, but Page 33 it's -- those were my thoughts. If we can fast forward a little bit to number 6. Number 6 is very, very interesting. And I like how the -- it was the Museum of American Art or, you know, paired this with a reverse. I think it was very stylish, invokes the 1920s. She looks unhappy there and there is a body of scholarship which is a little bit downbeat about women getting the right to vote -- this is not my perspective by the way -- that says that women were getting the right to vote at a time when there was less participation by Americans in national elections so, you know, you have that. And, Mr. Chairman, I think you want me just to keep going, am I correct? So, again, it's going to be a little hard to keep this to five minutes, but I will -MR. URAM: Okay. DR. KOTLOWSKI: the best I can. -- you know, I'm going to do And thinking about the reverses, I mean, again, number 1 I understand the pairing. I think that that would go very well with number 6 which Page 34 we were -MR. URAM: Excuse me, Dean. Take your time with this. DR. KOTLOWSKI: MR. URAM: Okay. You're fine. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Yeah, okay. And I will. And I'm just going to go in chronological order and I will adhere to that principle. I think it is very moving to have the text of the amendment there and it's nice that it fits on the coin. Number 2 here, again, we're getting a little bit into style. Again, it's -- you know, it does the job for you and paired I think with the -- with the obverse that I like. there. I’m not sure why 36 needs to be It's the number of the amend -- states that needed to ratify. 3 and 4 I think are quite good especially thinking of, you know, the obverse that I seem to favor so much. Votes for women in the standard on number 3 is quite -- is quite good. And you have very much an, you know, idealized portrait I think in a lot of the obverses. And here you have something that's Page 35 maybe a little bit realistic and more realistic and shows the diversity for 3 and for number 4. I think 5 and 5A, again, are fine. I think people will get the idea that they're carrying some sort of sign in protest in favor or advocacy in favor of women's suffrage. Obviously 5A really does a nice job of including the actual text of the amendment. And I think that that's -- so a lot of these I'm going to be listening to what my colleagues think of these reverses. I like a good deal of them. April, if we can go forward to number 9? Learned something today about women's suffrage and the sunflower. collectors. We have many people here who are coin You know, I do that somewhat. collect political buttons. I really And what this brings up is Alf Landon and there are an awful lot of those Alf Landon buttons out there. campaign. know. It was a very well-financed It wasn't a very successful one as people And that's what that kind of brings to mind so I think a lot of people might be thinking about that and I was a little less inspired along those lines. If we can move forward to the obverse of the Page 36 modern design. Again, I have some strong feelings about one of them and I'm going to be listening to what my colleagues on the Committee think of the others. But if you go to the obverse modern design I'm very strongly attracted to number 2. And I think we have seen -- this would, again, be -- if we can go -- there we go. I think we've seen this artist before and I like the work of this artist. I like how they're looking up, I like the stars, I like the "continuing the dream." Again, I want to -- I should have looked this up beforehand, but I think what you may have here is an abbreviated version of the amendment. And I'd like that -- you know, maybe how we feel about that. And then if we do the reverse with the full amendment you've got a redundancy, but you've also got some space here that could be opened up. I think number 1 tries too hard a little bit. You know, you're combining different races and different -- you know, different periods of time, different ages, different periods of time in terms of Page 37 the clothing. 3 and 3A I think are -- I'm glad to see that they were acceptable to the Smithsonian. Again, I'm going to listen to what my colleagues think of them. I think number 4 if we go forward -- and which we don't actually -- I'm not sure we have that one so everyone please refer to number 4. This is the one of a series of women of different races and profile more or less maybe sort of tilted a little bit toward you with the U.S. Capitol dome in the background. And I think that this one is a little bit too busy, a little bit too wordy maybe. But, again, I'm going to be very, very keen to listen to what my colleagues have to say. And then when we look at the reverses I think, again, we have -- we have four designs. I'm really restricting myself as you can tell to the designs that were deemed to be appropriate or suitable. And all of these are fine. I think 3C -- I think this idea of sort of holding something up, you know, I’m not sure that quite works in terms of the Page 38 messaging. The American flag is fine. I think 4 is very -- is very good in terms -- you know, it's a little plain but it helps you to understand -especially if you get a good obverse with this -what's going on. So 4 is -- it has the Roman Numeral 19 and then it has the amendment, it has a ballot, and, you know, it has the hand. And just a little bit of clarification. Number 8 I may have missed this. Those are supposed to be the gates to the White House; is that correct, yes or no? MR. URAM: (Nods head.) DR. KOTLOWSKI: think that that's fine. Okay. Yeah. And, again, I It has a lot of words on it. But, again, to go back to my original point I think that was a very, very important moment. And being somebody who does a little bit of women's history and a lot of presidential history I maybe have a little bit of bias in the sense that you're bringing the two of them together. So those are my comments, Mr. Chairman. And, again, I’m going to be giving a lot of consideration, Page 39 a lot of points I think to a lot of different designs. And ultimately will be listening very closely to what everyone else has to say. MR. URAM: Thank you, Dr. Kotlowski. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Dean. Mary? I was interested on hearing your perspective on a lot of these. I'm going to throw out a rather novel idea and really mess up the minutes when Tonya has to do them. But in the historical group if we take a look at number 5 which has reference to the Walking Liberty, I would like the Committee to think about this for the next topic that we're talking about which is our Liberty as an interesting -- as a good tie-in to what we're doing with the women's suffrage. And that could possibly be the Liberty in our next discussion. It's just something to think about, okay. So to go to what is my favorite design is I happened to like 1A with the hats. be noticed, all right. Women wear hats to How could you not look at these women if they were walking down the street? I mean, that's -- that is here I am, it says votes, you know, they look determined. It's a great design. I Page 40 mean, it's a fabulous design. And that was my -- I was drawn to that instantly not just because it was number 1 on our list, but if you looked at it, then you look at the others and my eye would always go back to this one. I just thought that this one was fabulous. Another design that I liked that was appropriate was design number 2 of the historical one because of the progression of the clothing. I thought that that was -- that was a very appropriate design. When we get to the reverses for this I liked reverse number 1 which was also very strong paired with the women in the hats. You know, your eye just kept going back to it and back to it and back to it. And to see 2020 go in the ballot box I thought it was fabulous and told the story. I'm less enthused about the other ones; although I understand they do want the text of the amendment or it's a possibility that they would like the text of the amendment. I thought a reverse 2 was a little too busy with the extra little buttons on that. It's the plainer the better for that for me. Page 41 The hands on 5A I would think would match nicely with the obverse of number 2. Now to get to the modern portfolio my favorite in this was 3A. Those women look determined. You are not going to deny them the right to vote. They looking directly at you. There's no mistake in the side that they were on. Number 4 which was also under consideration the women's eyes are looking down like are we sure we're going to be able to do this. I -- I -- especially the second from the left she looks sort of indifferent to me. They just didn't look as determined as the number 3. And I liked the variety of women that we have in 3A and also in 4. 3A I thought was really very strong. And so to pair the modern portfolio I definitely like 3C. reverse of 3C. strong. Those women are holding up the And they're strong, those hands are Again, it shows a great deal of determination. The other one that I liked in the modern portfolio which I thought was a really good use of the Page 42 flag is reverse number 1. And those are my comments. But really keep in mind historical number 5 for our next discussion. I think that would be interesting. MR. MENNA: MR. URAM: MR. MENNA: MR. URAM: MR. MENNA: Mr. Chairman, can I -Go ahead, Joe. -- Mr. Chair? Thank you, Mary. Thank you, Mary. to throw something out there. Joe? I just wanted You know. choices I think are just awesome really. Mary's No. Because they're based on artistic criteria rather than a literary criteria. We -- and I don't mean "we" as I'm not -- I'm not a member of the Committee. general. I mean, just people in When I studied sculpture in Russia they talked about things being sculpture or things being literature. If it was a narrative it was exclusively driven by narrative content, it didn't have any sculptural or artistic elements that drove it. Art should be like poetry I think rather than opposed, you know, visual art. And that's what I think those initial designs express. So I don't want Page 43 to go on here and pontificate, but I just think it's important to consider things for their visual content as much as for their, oh, I like that shirt, oh, those shoes are cool, you know what I mean. the way the sash goes on the body. things. I really like Those are literary They're not really sculptural things. So thank you for your time. MR. URAM: Thank you, Joe. Moving along, Robert, would you like to make some comments on discussion? MR. HOGE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would especially like to thank Dean too for his analysis of all of these various images. much detail. I won't go into very And to Mary, I'm very much in accord to their observations for both of these. A few thoughts that I've had. I particularly like the historical costuming on obverse number 2 of the historical set. I especially like number 5 as well of the lady holding the flag. Number 6 has an attractive idea but I don't really like this look of the sadness that the angularity of the face expresses here. Women should Page 44 be happy to have the right of vote I would hope and yet we look -- we see here this women looks really kind of anguished. For the reverses I think that reverse number 1 is a very strong piece. a coin somehow. It doesn't really look like Number 2 I feel is really just not a very good design because of the combination of a lot of wording and the tiny, little symbols. I'm surprised that this one has made it this far of the reckoning. I do like number 3 and number 4, again, the historical costumes. Number 5 and 5A I think have problems because this is just hands holding a stake. It doesn't really say anything about women's suffrage. I mean, this could be interpreted any manner of different methods. I'm pleased to see that the images of Joan of Arc are probably drawn out because, I mean, Joan of Arc is a tragedy. This is -- I mean, she was actually murdered by a kangaroo court, burned at the stake for wearing men's clothing is basically what it came down to. Why did she do that? She felt forced to because Page 45 of the fear of being raped. So I think that, you know, this would be a very sad sort of thing. And also we have a tradition against depicting historical figures on coinage in general. I mean, we might as well just keep it at Queen Isabella of Spain. We don't know what Joan of Arc looked like anyway. I do like the sunflower designs in historical reverse number 9. I'm glad that you brought it up that this could be interpreted in other ways. But I think that this makes a very attractive element. For the modern portfolio I think this has a series of very nice images. all of them. And I'm -- I kind of like I think that the hands with the vote tells a story, but I don't think I like the design of that for some reason. The number 3 series of reverses with the hands supporting a block if you turn it upside down they're going to be pushing down on the block. think that doesn't work too well. I I mean, it's a little bit confusing how these things are working pushing upward or are they forcing against in an Page 46 effort to crush them or what? The hand with the ballot tells a story pretty well. It has a lot of text, though. I don't really go for the images with the White House gate. I appreciate the symbolism of it, but yet these images if you don't know that that's what it is -- and the public in general probably wouldn't just looking at the coin -- it looks like it might be a prison yard or who knows what. So although it can be attractive, I think it requires a good deal of explanation. Thank you. MR. URAM: Thank you, Robert. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Is this on? Yes. Hello? Jeanne? Thank you, Mr. Chair. I agree with my colleagues and especially with obverse 1 in the historic group. I think that this is -- or 1A actually without the glasses. MS. BORER: Sorry. A technical difficulty. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Okay. I think that this would make a really amazing medal/coin because, first of all, it's nothing like what we've done. I want to really have our coins be special. And The U.S. Page 47 Mint should be far ahead of other mints and I think we're kind of crawling up there. But I think this would really help to give us some recognition. This is just a really wonderful design. I like the fact that we've got 1920 on one side and in -- if this were paired with number 6 reverse with 2020; is that correct? MR. HOGE: No. Yes. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: The reverses. Oh, sorry. MR. HOGE: No. UNKNOWN MALE: Reverse 1. Reverse 1. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: here. Reverse 1. I'm on the wrong one I'm sorry, reverse 1. If that -- if obverse A1 were paired with this one and we change maybe -- well, yeah, we just keep it like that. To me it's a very kind of -- it gives you both sides very dynamic and no questions about what this is about. Granted we don't have a lot of text on this side, but do we need it? And maybe we can put the text on the next coin that we do. I -- I'm looking at obverse number 4 which I liked very much because it Page 48 did show the determination of, you know, petitioning, the White House. I think this is a good idea. And also obverse 2 was a little more simplified, but I think -- I think 4 says a little more. Obverse number 6 she is kind of sad so I thought I'm not really looking at that seriously. On the reverse the only one for me is reverse number 1. The rest I think just are not saying enough. And the hands -- you know, it's nice to think that this could be flag or a banner or whatever, but it -- it's not -it could be something else. So the force of these hands that are really strong I'm not liking the message it's sending. And number 9 I am happy to know that Kansas was where we were beginning our movement; however, I'm not sure that that says enough. Moving onto the next set of designs I did like obverse 1 on the -- on our contemporary one. And I liked it very much because it did -- is very busy, but it does say a lot about youth, about diversity, about everything from -- for the last hundred years. So I think that that's important. Page 49 When I look at number 3 and 3A I just don't think that gives us enough. It doesn't give us enough about what we are trying to say about the suffrage movement. And obverse 4 I think has been replaced. This one has been replaced; is that correct, April? MS. STAFFORD: Yeah. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yeah, that's correct. Yes. And I think that we -- this one is not one in the -- to be considered mainly for all the reasons that were mentioned. So I -- if 4 -- the real 4 might come up, is that possible? MS. STAFFORD: Sorry. We did replace it so this is the -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. STAFFORD: -- modern obverse 4. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. STAFFORD: All right. disregard this one. This is the one? Yes. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: right. This is the one? Okay. Okay. Sorry. It's ugly. All right. All Then I'm going to Sorry. I don't -- I think it's just too much text, too many portraits, and truly it doesn't show some vitality and happiness I Page 50 think it should have. Moving onto the reverses, I think reverse 1 is very clean and simple. This is the one that I think I would probably send my votes for. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. URAM: Thank you, Jeanne. MS. SALMON: Robin? For the historic design I was also drawn immediately to 1A, the women with hats. It's dynamic, it's interesting, it's different and I really think it's a good design. I also liked the simplicity of 5 and the symbolism, the parallel with the Walking Liberty. All of that made a lot of sense and seemed very appropriate. There -- I feel like even though other designs are well-done, I just feel that they're very busy and would not come across as well as they might in the smaller format. So for the reverses I had two choices, number 1 of course. the hats. It seems to go well with But I also liked number 9, the symbolism of the sunflower. to the point. It does say votes for women. Simple, I think it could go well with either Page 51 the Liberty or the hats. Again, the other reverse designs to me were too busy. With the modern I was also drawn to the six women looking directly at the viewer. very businesslike and determined. sorry. A very strong, That's number 3A, And the reverse for me was number 1. That does have the text that I think was desired as well as I think the design could be quite beautiful on that. The other reverse designs although they are very nice I -- again, they're just -- there's too much going on. So those are my choices. MR. URAM: Thank you, Robin. Sam? MR. GILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, as I look at this I think of this whole -- whole event, the suffrage event as being one of the most important causes in United States' history. And it needs to be extremely dignified and I like a medal or a coin that tells a story. So my first choice on the obverse side would be the number 5 just because I just love the flow of it, I think it's a beautiful coin. beautiful -- beautiful medal. It could be a And I love the history Page 52 of number 2 because it takes these women across many, many, many decades. And because the whole movement took a long, long time so I appreciate the history that goes into number 2 and I appreciate the design in number 5. For the reverse I wasn't really a fan of any of the historic reverses so I'll move onto the modern obverse. And the one that I like the most is number 1 because it tells a story. It's a handoff to a modern -- from one time to another time to a modern young girl and I think it's a really sweet story and it's a good one and it would make a very pretty coin or a medal. The 3 and 3A, yes, they look -- they look like they mean business, but they also look like they're angry too and it doesn't appeal to me at all. For the reverse for either modern or historic I would go to number 8 because I think the events need to be explained and there has to be text involved for me. So that does it and with the White House gates that's fine. is. I live around here. I know what that Maybe others won't, but it doesn't matter to me. Page 53 It just explains the whole event and gives a complete text and I think that's important from the historical perspective. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. URAM: Thank you, Sam. MR. TUCKER: to my colleagues. conversation. And Dennis? Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks This has been a wonderful A lot of good analysis here. Thank you, Joe, for your insight as well. Something -- one way that we've talked about with medals like this in the past and to evoke the spirit of Erik Jansen, he would say that we would look at the obverse and reverse as a very and a noun. we always like to see action on the obverse. So I like the human element so that's what the obverse design of these medals can focus on. That's what I look for when I'm analyzing designs. And then the reverse often with the congressional gold medals and other national medals is explanatory and saying we don't always know everything about every subject that's being honored on a medal. So the reverse provides an opportunity to spell things out a bit. Page 54 Joe, when you were talking about poetry versus pros and sculpture versus text or narrative or I guess it's all narrative I thought that was a really interesting discussion and conversation. A good way to look at these designs and think about the portfolios that we're reviewing. I have a question, April. Is there any possibility that these designs will be used for products other than a silver medal? Would they be used for the bronze format at 3 inches? MS. STAFFORD: Yes. In the opening remarks should the United States Mint create only a silver medal, the silver medal would be available only in 2020. And the idea is thereafter these designs could be made on bronze medals -MR. TUCKER: MS. STAFFORD: Okay. -- and introduced as part of the Mint's ongoing medal portfolio. MR. TUCKER: That would be wonderful. Okay. So from a design perspective for the historical designs the one that really grabbed me was 1 and 1A for the obverses. I mean, I think several of our Page 55 colleagues here had mentioned that when you're going through a portfolio this is the one that your eye is attracted to and comes back to. And, Joe, I wonder if that might be enough to automatically say this is -this is the best. I know that 1A was noted as being suitable by our liaisons. 5 is also one that -- that I was drawn to. It's very evocative of the era. It's a very well- known scene or symbol of the suffragette movement. I like the tie-in to the classic hat dollar of the era. It also reminds me of the 2012 Alice Paul First Spouse coin. But I -- and, Dean, I'm glad that you mentioned in 2 that it is repetitive having centennial and 100 years. I think it's important for our artists to keep things like that in mind as they're incorporating text into their designs. I really think it's either 1A or 5 and they're both wonderful designs. It's hard to decide which is the best one for this. Mary, I like your idea of possibly using 5 as the American Liberty gold coin and silver medal design, but I will point out Page 56 that that will be in 2021 so it would come a year after. But still, you know, it's an interesting thought. For the reverses, Bob, I have to disagree with you. I actually like the Joan of Arc imagery. MR. HOGE: MR. TUCKER: I like the imagery too. I like the symbolism. I think the symbolism is good because it is a tragic part of history, but she was a women who was respected and feared. If I'm not mistaken her ashes were raked so that her bones could not be used as relics. You know, that's a sign that she was a woman who was feared and that was -- that -- all of these emotions are tied up in the suffrage that, you know, that in the -- in this era, you know, women need to be respected and they need to be listened to. So I like the symbolism and the historical connection to the Joan of Arc imagery. Again for these reverses, I think we -- we need to tell the tale of what -- you know, what we're honoring here so I think we can't really get around any of the designs that need text. I think we need to have something that has text so reverse 1 is nice. Page 57 It's a very strong design in terms of imagery, but I think that we need something that does a little more heavy lifting. So 3 or 4 do that. I agree with Bob, 5 and 5A do raise more questions than they answer if you're just looking at that and you don't understand that she's holding a sign. So just some commentary on the historical designs. Moving onto the modern designs. Anyone who knows me knows that I have three-and-a-half-year-old daughter. I talk about her a lot. here of these Committee meetings. I show pictures So I'm always drawn to designs that have children in them and use the symbolism of children as the future of the United States and that type of thing. So I like design 1 for that reason, obverse 1 from the modern series. My only objection to obverse 1 is that the American flag is touching the ground and I think that kind of disqualifies it as a potential design for a national medal of the United States. If it were not touching the ground I think this would be a wonderful obverse design. 3 and 3A these are strong-looking women. I Page 58 think, Sam, you mentioned that they don't look particularly happy. They also look like, you know, they could be a committee of some sort or, you know, they're getting down to business. determined, but not joyous. They look And I think that there's an opportunity, number one, is a bit more joyous. It's hopeful and there's more emotion in number 1. I agree that number 4 is not the happiest either. My favorite was actually obverse 6 and I thought that was the best use of the symbolism of a child. It's appealing and if you look at these designs from the obverse it's the only one that has action. The rest of people looking at you, people standing, people kneeling. This is the only one that has an action -- the verb that we sometimes think about and that verb/noun thing. So 6 was my favorite. I know it was not preferred by any of our liaisons, but to me that was a strong design. For the reverses, again, the reverses should use this opportunity to tell the viewer what they're looking at. wordy. Number reverse 1 I think is a bit too It's a nice design. I like the American flag, Page 59 but I think we've seen this style of design before in some of our portfolios. I can't remember if it's been -- has this been select -- this style of design been selected for a medal? MR. URAM: Congressional gold medal I think something similar. MR. TUCKER: One of the congressional gold medals or one of the military medals? you know, it's graphically nice. Anyway, it's -- But -- and it does the job of giving some narrative, but I think I probably prefer reverse 8 which does the job, you know, it spells out to the viewer what's going on on this medal. And I think it would be well paired with one of the other obverses, obverse 6 being mine probably. I think that concludes my commentary. MR. URAM: Okay. Dennis, thank you. Before we move on and before I give a couple of my thoughts, Joe, on that design for the modern obverse 01 as Dennis pointed out regarding the flag, can that be adjusted so that it would appear that it would not be touching so that the members would know? MR. MENNA: This one? Page 60 MR. URAM: Yes. MR. MENNA: Not really. be long enough to be the flag. I mean, it wouldn't I mean, you know, I don't want to talk about literature but, you know, I mean, that's -- it's mentioned that the flag -- I mean, I guess you could -- you could make it so it's folding back behind the woman who's kneeling. But, you know, I think the flag is not really the appropriate length and it may not be appropriate visually, but -- you'd have to change the direction of the fold. And then folding of it itself maybe show the corner of it on an angle coming up and go behind the girl (inaudible). MR. URAM: Okay. Thank you. I was just asking that as a technical question so that the members would be able to discern. MR. MENNA: MR. URAM: As it comes to -- Sorry for the confusion. My thought were on the historical side 1A I agree with the colleagues that this is very different than anything we've seen and, you know, really sense that -- as a couple of members have said, it's great to have the visual and then the description Page 61 as well. So if I team that up -- and before I get to the reverse I do -- you know, I think that one I like and 05 I think has a nice historical presence as well, maybe even more so. So if we look at that design or either of those two designs, both are really nice, I really like the fact that this is actually a lot of movement as well. It -- same with the first one with the hats as well. I think it shows, you know, especially the fact that the faces are coming and going. I mean, just like it's in movement as well. I think Sam had mentioned it's great to have some wording and I agree with that. So if we go with more of the image approach on the obverse, my reverses I was looking at 03 and 04 tells the story, so does 04. I know a number have gravitated to 01 and I think it's a great design; however, it's almost too modern as it's paired with the historic. So it's almost like I thought this design was more geared towards the modern. MS. LANNIN: It's art deco. Page 62 MR. URAM: I know it's art deco, but so that's just my thought on that. Moving along to the historic 01 and 02, the reverses. I don't know. I know what Dennis said there so it's kind of like not totally sure of which direction to go on that based on that. But and then on the historic 01 as well I think we already had that up. of 01 and reverse 08. So and then the reverse So I'm leaning more towards the reverse of 03A to be able to tell the story depending on the pairing. So Greg has passed out the voting sheets and score sheets. MR. WEINMAN: And actually I see people filling out their sheets. comments if it's okay. these are. an end all. Let me make a couple Number one, remember what These are -- this is a tool. This is not The wording is merely a tool. With this we've considered possibly giving you two sets of voting sheets or two possibilities the coins might -- coins are medal or potential coin could come to be. I think it makes more sense to use the Page 63 tool right now if you feel the need to do a second scoring at some -- during this conversation you could, but I think that's makes things more complicated. Once the scoring comes back and we've analyzed your strength of preferences then you could always put motions on the table one way or the other giving your recommendations. this is a tool. But once again, remember It's not an end all. Also although I don't hold -- I know you're scoring right now, but hold off until you've had the full -MR. URAM: Final. MR. WEINMAN: -- all the comments because it could always influence you at the end. MR. URAM: Okay. Thanks -- Thanks, Greg. Again, that's all important. Are there any further observations, Joe, that you -- you'd like to before we finalize -MR. MENNA: appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. I 05 honestly I really think it's too much, but -- of a -- of a -- of a throwback to the Walking Liberty. I think all of these, you know -- I Page 64 think the constant repetition of motifs and compositions from coins past I think is regressing in terms of wanting to move forward. Doesn't mean that we can't use motifs, but I don't -- devices rather. Historically, you know, they always had victory in different eras shown in different ways or, you know, but there was never really, like, the same pose or the same, you know, style or this or that. But that's enough of that. The style -- speaking of style, the stylized coins were the ones I was referring to when I said they were the most innovative and exciting that I've seen in most of the years that I've been here. I think typically our -- a lot of our designs tend to look like elementary school textbook illustrations frankly. They're very flat, they're very, very static. And when I look at what our I won't say competition, I would say our friends abroad too and how innovative their designs are I don't see any reason why we can't do it as well better because we're the United States of America, you know. So that's all Page 65 I have to say. Thanks. MR. URAM: Okay. If everyone would like to complete their score sheets and then return those to Greg and we'll take a ten-minute recess as well. (Off the record.) MR. URAM: order. Okay. I'd like to call us back to I'd like to ask our counsel Greg Weinman to review the results of our voting. MR. WEINMAN: Yes. With the scoring completed, first the historic designs we'll start with the historic obverses. And, once again, this is -- we have 8 members voting, so 24 -- so half of 24 -- we need 13 to be the generally the number for recommendation. Although, of course, that can always be overcome by a separate motion. In this case Historic Obverse Number 1 received one vote, Historic 1A received nineteen notes which is the highest score, 2 -- Obverse 2 received twelve, Obverse 4 received seven, Obverse 5 received a very close eighteen votes, and -MS. STAFFORD: I'm sorry. I apologize, Greg. Did you say Obverse -- Historic Obverse 3 and 3A? Page 66 MR. WEINMAN: Sorry. They both received zero. MS. STAFFORD: MR. WEINMAN: received zero votes. Okay. My bad. Sorry. Yes, 3 and 3A both 4 received seven, 5 received eighteen very close second place, obverse 6 received four, and then 7, 8, and 9 all received zero. Moving onto the Historic Designs Reverse. Reverse number 1 received thirteen votes, Reverse Number 2 received two votes, reverse number 3 received thirteen votes, reverse number 4 received sixteen votes which is the highest vote getter. MR. URAM: Which one was that? MR. WEINMAN: votes. Reverse 4 received sixteen 5, 5A, and 6 all received zero. 7 received one vote, 7A received three votes, 8 received zero, nine received six, 10 and 11 received zero, 12 received two votes, 13 received zero. MS. LANNIN: Greg, could you see what number 1 got? MR. WEINMAN: Yes. Once again, number 1 of the Historic Reverse 01 received 13 votes. Any other Page 67 questions before I move onto the modern? MR. VASQUEZ: What were 6 and 7 again? MR. WEINMAN: This is the reverse you're asking? UNKNOWN FEMALE: MR. WEINMAN: Yes. Yeah. Historic Reverse 6 and 7, 6 received zero votes, seven received one vote. Okay. Moving to the modern designs, Modern Number 1 -- Obverse 1 received fourteen votes which was the highest vote getter, Obverse -- Modern Obverse 2 received five, Modern Obverse 3 received one, 3A received ten votes, 4 received zero, 5 received zero, 6 received seven, 7 received zero, and Modern Obverse 8 received one vote. Going to modern reverses. Modern Reverse 1 received sixteen votes, Modern Reverse 2, 3, and 4 -sorry, 2, 3, and 3A all received zero, 3C received four votes, 4 received three votes, 5 received zero, 6 received one, and Reverse 8 received eighteen votes making it the top vote getter. MR. URAM: Okay. Thank you, Greg. Okay. after that are there any motions that anyone would So Page 68 like to make regarding let's just start out with the historic first? MR. WEINMAN: Once again, of the historic obverses it was close between 1A which received nineteen votes and 5 which received eighteen votes. MR. URAM: Right. And the reverse was Number 1, thirteen votes, Reverse 3 was thirteen votes, and Reverse 4 was sixteen votes. MR. WEINMAN: So -- So the default would be that unless you make -MR. URAM: Right. Unless -- it'll stay as that unless there are any motions. MR. TUCKER: MR. URAM: What's 1A and 4? 1A and 4 would be the determined design selection if we -MR. WEINMAN: MR. URAM: Would be the recommendation. Right. The recommendation. Seeing no motions -MR. WEINMAN: MR. URAM: Move to another. -- we will move to another. Thank you. MR. WEINMAN: To the modern. Of the modern Page 69 designs, once again, the default would be Modern Obverse 01 with fourteen votes and Modern Reverse 08 with eighteen votes. MR. URAM: Eighteen votes. MR. WEINMAN: Unless there is a motion for otherwise. MR. TUCKER: Can we have some more discussion? MR. URAM: Sure. MR. TUCKER: MR. WEINMAN: Go ahead, Dennis. So -I was going to say whoever's on the phone if you could please mute your phone. hearing you on this side. the phone. We're Please mute your phone on Thank you. MR. TUCKER: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair. So our highest ranked design for the modern portfolio for the obverse was number 1, correct? MR. WEINMAN: MR. TUCKER: That's correct. Teamed with Reverse 08. I really have to object to the portrayal of the flag being -- touching the ground, touching the earth. I think formal flag etiquette -- I think that -- I think Page 70 that the Mint would get backlash, angry letters, and, you know, I think sales would suffer. But more importantly the -MR. MENNA: Well, Dennis, I don't mean to interrupt you, I didn't think about this before, right? MR. TUCKER: MR. MENNA: I'm sorry? I didn't think about this before, but why can't she just be waiving a small flag? Seriously, like a symbolic flag, you know, the kind they would have had at a rally or something. Put something like that in her hand then there's a lot of cool space -- then there's that cool, negative space between the two figures and framing the rose. And then you kind of solve the problem because I didn't think about that. It should not be touching the floor in any way, shape, or form. MR. TUCKER: I think it's a wonderful design if the flag were not touching the ground. I think everything else about this design is strong, it's inclusive, it captures different audiences and representations of American women -- old, young, adult Page 71 from different eras, different ethnicities. I think it's a wonderful design. My only objection, yeah, is that the flag is touching the ground which it is forbidden. MR. MENNA: Okay. I recommend that you make -- make a motion to allow the Mint to revise the design to fix that issue. MR. TUCKER: Yes. I -- Mr. Chair, I would make a motion that we give our preference to this obverse design with modifications as determined by the design team to make the flag not touch the ground. MR. URAM: Okay. We have a -- Dennis has a motion to make the size -- the flag the appropriate size as described by Chief Engraver Menna. Is there a second to that? MR. HOGE: Second. MR. URAM: Robert. All those in favor signify saying aye. (A chorus of ayes.) MR. URAM: Opposed? Motion carries. Thank you, Dennis. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Excuse me, hello. Page 72 MR. URAM: Yes, Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Just one suggestion. Is it possible -- I mean, I think that the flag the way it is right now the dimensions and everything is correct, but what if her skirt flowed over the end of the flag so you wouldn't see the bottom of the flag touching the ground? MR. MENNA: Or if I can -- I know I'm not on microphone -MR. URAM: That's extending my good ear. Take -- yeah. MR. MENNA: If I could make -- if you want to keep the flag as is another thing you can do is, you know, get rid of this part, get rid of this part, and get rid of -- just get rid of all this. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. MENNA: Yeah. And then have the flag forming behind her and then you don't know where it's going. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. MENNA: Yeah, 100 percent. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: that bend, yeah? That's what I'm saying. Can her skirt cover Page 73 MR. TUCKER: That doesn’t affect the wording of my motion. MR. URAM: No, it doesn't. As a matter of fact -MR. WEINMAN: His motion gave you the discretion to -MR. URAM: Yeah. It gave it the discretion by that so we're covered. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. URAM: covered. Okay. Thank you, Dennis. We're covered and the flag is Moving right along. Okay. Thank you, Dennis. MR. WEINMAN: MR. URAM: Reverse. And the reverse will be 08 is recommended -MR. WEINMAN: No. Reverse will be -- sorry. Reverse -- yeah, Reverse 08 unless there's a motion. MR. URAM: Right. Seeing none, we will continue our discussion. MR. WEINMAN: MR. URAM: And that concludes. Reverse 8. MR. WEINMAN: Modern rever- -- it was Modern Page 74 Reverse 8 that received eighteen votes which is the highest vote getter. MR. URAM: Right. MR. WEINMAN: MR. TUCKER: Very good. Reverse 1 received sixteen. Oh, are we not -- are we not -- Mr. Chair, are we not making recommendations for -MR. URAM: This is -- MR. TUCKER: MR. URAM: -- historical and modern? Yeah. We made the recommendation for the historical already with 01A and Reverse 4 and we made the Modern Obverse 1 and Reverse 8 at this point. And it defaults based on the vote count. MR. WEINMAN: MR. URAM: Okay. MR. TUCKER: MR. URAM: Mr. Rodriguez? I'm sorry. You okay? MR. TUCKER: I apologize. Okay. Are you sure. I'm flipping through so many pages I want to make sure that I have everything straight. MR. URAM: Yeah. Okay. So the Committee has selected just for clarification -MR. WEINMAN: Recommended. Page 75 MR. URAM: -- recommended for clarification Historic 01A with Reverse 04 and we're recommending the Modern Obverse 1 with Reverse 8 with the modifications based on the motion that was made concerning Obverse 1. Okay, everyone. that discussion. Thank you very much for all And I will -- since we gave April enough of a break I hope we'll move right on. Let's start, April Stafford, the Chief of the Mint's Office of Design and Management to present the obverse and reverse candidate designs for the 2021 American Liberty 24K gold coin and silver medal. April? MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. Building upon the 2015, 2017, and 2019 American Liberty Programs the United States Mint will produce in 2021 a high-relief 24k gold coin and silver medal featuring a modern interpretation of Liberty paired with a modern depiction of a bald eagle. Designs for the 2021 American Liberty highrelief 24k gold coin and silver medal obverse envision American Liberty beyond the classical depiction of an Page 76 allegorical Lady Liberty as the primary device and instead presents new and modern ideas to transform the iconography associated with American Liberty. Required inscriptions for the gold coin are "Liberty," "in God we trust," and "2021." The corresponding silver medal will have the date 2021 with the optional inscription "Liberty." Designs are presented in both their gold coin and silver medal versions. Okay. Obverse 1 depicts a rock climber ascending a steep outcropping to fulfill an ambitious objective planting the American flag on top of the summit. The image conveys the idea that hardship and struggle and inherent in achieving lofty goals such as obtaining, preserving, and protecting American liberties and freedoms. Thirteen stars represent the original colonies. Obverse 2 and 2A depict a wild American Mustang horse bucking off a western-style saddle evoking the throwing off of the yoke of British rule during the American Revolution. I'd like to share with you some of the artist's thoughts behind using Page 77 this as the primary device. The Mustang horse is presented here by the artist both as native to this land, yet simultaneously an immigrant to the nation as we know it today. The ancestor to all true horses alive today evolved here in North America and then those horses inexplicably disappeared at the end of the last Ice Age only to be accidently reintroduced in their domesticated form by the Spanish in the 1500s having earlier reached Eurasia by way of the Bering land bridge. So this is Obverse 2 and 2A. 2 centers the horse on a rising sun while 2A depicted here utilizes a rugged line of mountains. Obverse 3 features a Mustang standing on its hind legs in a rearing pose. The Mustang has evolved thanks to a combination of the challenging landscape and the introduce -- and introduction of additional breeds resulting in herds of strong, health Mustangs that continue to flourish and multiple today. Here the artist uses the Mustang as a symbol of the people of our nation brought forth in unity from many diverse freedom-seeking peoples around the Page 78 world. The rearing pose represents Americans who have fought selflessly to defend our liberty. Obverse 4 depicts a butterfly experiencing its new found freedom of flight which has been transformed in the protective crystallized securely affixed to branches. Obverse 5 depicts a purposefully unspecified bird as a timeless symbol of the soul, spirit, thought, imagination, and above all liberty as it flies above and open hand. The bird is representative of all forms of liberty as birds may travel in any direction at any time free of physical restraint. The hand represents all Americans and it's displayed in a relaxed, open gesture of freedom while also providing a safe, reliable resting place. Obverse 6 features our national bird, the bald eagle, taking flight. The open banner at its talons suggests that the eagle is breaking free as restraints fall away. The stripes in the background evoke a waving flag. Obverse 7 shows Liberty as a robust flame being fostered and protected by hands that represent Page 79 the audience's ownership. Over the flame resides the star as a symbol of America punctuating our nation's union with Liberty. Obverse 8 depicts two hands nurturing and guarding the flame of Liberty. This flame is the beacon which lights the way for all Americans towards their inheritance of liberty and freedom. This design developed for a previous portfolio would be updated to reflect the appropriate inscriptions for the 2021 American Liberty gold coin and silver medal. Obverses 9 and 10 feature the torch from the Statue of Liberty used as a symbol of enlightenment and a beacon which guides all to liberty and freedom. This is Obverse 9 and 10. Obverses 11 and 11A feature a torch held aloft in front of a broken chain. The torch shows the enlightenment of education and law to overcome the chains that prevent freedom for all men and women. The flame sheds light on the inequities of society and ultimately empowers society to shed and break the chains that have bound them. -- from behind the torch. In Obverse 11A rays of a Page 80 Obverse 12 features the Liberty tree, an elm tree that grew near Boston Common in the years before the American Revolution. It became a rallying point for the growing independence movement and served as a town hall where issues were discussed and plans of resistance arose. The Liberty tree was felled by a British loyalist in 1775, but American revolutionaries continued to meet at that location and the area became known as Liberty Hall. Subsequently, many other American towns designated their own Liberty trees. The, quote, "shining city upon a hill," end quote, behind the tree in the design is very loosely based on the contemporary Boston skyline, but is primarily meant symbolically. Obverse 13 features an immigrant -- an immigrant ship floating toward the horizon, the water morphing into the United States' flag and its edges marks its destination. The sunrise represented by the crown of the Statue of Liberty signifies a new dawn for those seeking liberty, freedom, and a bright, new way of life for themselves and future generations. Page 81 Obverse 14 features the State House Bell also known as the Liberty Bell. At left it is portrayed as it might have appeared in 1776 ringing atop Independence Hall and proclaiming liberty throughout all the land. At right the Liberty Bell is shown as it appears today as one of America's most cherished symbols. The design symbolizes the enduring ideals of freedom and independence that are forever embodied in the concept of American liberty. "Let freedom ring" is included as an additional inscription. Obverse 15 presents a group of disparate demonstrators displaying a request for liberty with the crown from the Statue of Liberty as a backdrop suggesting that the advancement of liberty is one of continuing importance and personal responsibility. Obverse 16 features a woman holding a globe wrapped in strands of barbed wire as butterflies encircle her. The butterflies are meant to symbolize the concept of unencumbered liberty and freedom that emanate from the governing principles of the United States of America. Page 82 The globe and layer of barbed wire symbolize that other countries in the world have no such liberty. A metaphorical liberty figure orchestrates and facilitates the flow of these symbols as they take flight. Obverse 17 features an immigrant child, eyes full of wonder and possibility, gazing in awe at the Statute of Liberty on the way to Ellis Island. The pier is simple hope that is found in the pursuit and realization of liberty as reflected in the face of this young newcomer. A symbol of what America and liberty truly stand for. Obverse 18 features a young girl symbolizing liberty holding an olive branch representing peace as the American flag billows around her embodying her freedom to grown and flourish in body, mind, and spirit. Onto the reverse portfolio. designs depict an American eagle. The reverse Required inscriptions for the gold coin are "United States of American," "e pluribus unum," "one ounce," ".9999 fine gold," and the denomination "$100." Page 83 Some designs developed for the 2015 through 2019 American Liberty portfolio's feature the inscription "$75" and will be updated to reflect $100 if selected. The corresponding silver medal may optionally depict the inscription "United States of America." Designs, again, are presented in both their gold coin and silver medal versions. Reverse 1 features a soaring eagle evocative of freedom while Liberty holds her torch aloft in the background. Reverse 2 places the viewer below an eagle in flight catching a glimpse of the olive branch in its clutches. Reverse 3 and 3A feature an eagle in flight while rays of light raise from behind a mountain range. The fine rays depicted in Reverse 3 are replaced in Reverse 3A by rays appearing as 13 stripes complementing the 13 stars displayed. Reverse 4 depicts and eagle holding an oak branch with the sun shining behind it. Reverse 5 shows an ascending eagle with the sun shining behind it. Page 84 Reverse 6 also included in the obverse portfolio features an eagle taking flight. The open banner at its talons suggest that the eagle is breaking free as restraints fall away. The stripes in the background evoke a waving flag. Reverse 7 depicts a bold and powerful eagle in flight with eyes toward opportunity and a determination to attain. A version of this design featuring a view of the eagle from further away was utilized for the 2017 American Liberty 225th Anniversary gold coin and silver medal. Reverse 8 features a stylized eagle in flight carrying a ribbon in its beak. Reverse 9 presents a standing, stylized eagle holding an olive branch in its beak while the sun peaks above the horizon behind it. Reverse 10 shows an eagle holding a branch in its right talon and arrows in its left. Reverse 11 shows and eagle poised on the limb of a Bur Oak with wings party outstretched and its head in profile view. Behind the eagle a branch of the oak curves into the distance. Page 85 Reverse 12 and 13 present a close-up view of an eagle. Mr. Chairman, that concludes the portfolio. MR. URAM: Thank you very much, April. Before we move onto discussion are there any technical questions that could be answered before we review the designs? Okay. Seeing none, what I'd like to start out with is I really appreciate everyone's opinion as it relates to designs. And, you know, Mike can't be here to any of you at any time if you cannot be here and you feel strongly about a design I'll be happy to read for you like I'm going to do for Mike here, his opinion on this Liberty design. As you know, Mike was very instrumental in some of the Liberty design topics as it started. And so I just wanted to make it clear that if any of you at any time can't make it please send me your pending thoughts you might have regarding a particular design. So I'm going to read what Mike has sent here. He's the only one that sent in anything regarding any of the designs for today. So on the obverse his -- Page 86 and keep in mind this is only his observations. He cannot vote since he's not here and not able to vote and not on the phone. "Obverse, I'm not ready for rock climbers or bucking broncos or butterflies nor does" -- does it sound like him? "Nor does a wild horse have the symbolism that I am seeking. Eagles on both the obverse and reverse are simply repetitive. Likewise, a dove is a bad combination with an eagle, a bird of prey. I love the child looking at the Statute of Liberty, but the design does not feel -- quite feel appropriate. That leaves the flames. The simple torch reminds me of the 19th century motif. both Obverse 7 and Obverse 8. I like I think the star and the high-relief of the 07 would make a striking design. However, I'm drawn to the simplicity of 08 with the flame incused combined with a clean field." His comments regarding the reverse: I am unsatisfied with the reverse package. "Overall The eagles in flight of R1, 2 and 3 lack the defining detail. I find the sun rays of R4 and reverse 5 distractive. I simply don't like the scroll work in the field of R6. Page 87 R7 is too close to our 2017 design. comment on R8. R9 is too close to the standing eagle designs of the 1907. R10 is a retread and doesn’t get the second time around either. from R11. It can be fixed. The field detracts R12 and R13 are retreads. Perhaps it's time for a head shot. Okay. I won't even I favor R12." So those are Mike's comments. So with that I'm going to ask Dennis if you'd take it from there. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Well, I won't comment on every design in the interest of time, but starting with the obverses I will comment on a few that I think are good and then I will conclude with my strong preference. I like Obverse 17. It's a very bold design. It speaks to hope and I like its connection to immigration which I think is timely to me. Some people might object to the fact that the child is not actually looking at the Statute of Liberty. I think if you study sequential art and comic strip art and things like that the spacing communicates what this design needs to communicate so I think that's okay. Page 88 Obverse 12 caught my eye. I think that Obverse 12 will appeal to anyone who fondly remembers President Ronald Reagan. And to be quite honest, that probably 90 percent of the United States' Mint's demographic and audience. So I think it's well- balanced, it has an interesting symbolism, and I think it would be appealing to the marketplace. I actually like the symbolism of Obverses 4 and 5. I like the butterfly and the bird. These are not your standard Walking Liberty's, Seated Liberty's, Standing Liberty's, Miss Liberty seated on a bail of cotton and that type of thing. And yet they evoke freedom and liberty of movement and thought so I like these as symbolism. However, my strongest preference is Obverse 2 so I'm in disagreement with Mike on that. I think the bucking bronco is very much quintessentially American. You know, this is as American as the 1913 Buffalo nickel was. It's a strong design, it's got action, it's got action aplenty. And it's just -- to me this is America. I prefer the option with the rising sun which Page 89 is optimistic and hopeful. Although I think the one with the mountain range is nice as well. So this is really my strongest preference. Comparing it to the other horse design 3, that reminded me of a German Notgeld from the Weimar era which eventually I think it started as a one mark and went up to one million marks. So I -- for me as a (inaudible) it just sent the wrong message but of what a runaway wreckage in place. But for me the number 2 is definitely the strongest, boldest. It's not something we've ever seen on an American coin before and it gets away from the classical retreads and rehashing of Miss Liberty as a woman standing, sitting, et cetera. MR. URAM: thoughts. Thank you, Dennis. Thank you. Very good Mary? MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Keeping in mind my suggestion from about an hour or so ago of considering using the Women's Suffrage Historical Obverse 5 as a form of Liberty. I still like that idea. I think that the Mint is always looking for marketing, especially Page 90 marketing to women and marketing tie-ins. And if this became our Liberty coin for 2021 I think that that would be a natural tie-in. For me, for the reverse of that the eagle that I feel best matches with that is also kind of a throwback and that would be eagle number 9 -- eagle number 9 for the reverse. MS. FRANCK: Sorry. It's delayed. MS. LANNIN: It's delayed. This is the eagle head reverted to the right with the sun. strong feathers on the legs. Very sort of The internet is conspiring not to show this to you all. Oops, I'll shut it. Yes. So that would be what I would pair with -- if we happened to choose the Historical Women's Suffrage as an interesting Liberty. If we go back to the Liberty portfolio that we were presented, people are gradually changing my mind on number 2 or is that number 3 with the bucking bronco with the sun. interesting coin. That would be a very, very I can see pairing that with a very strong eagle's head of number 13 of two very, very symbolic American icons. Page 91 Another one that I like that is safer would be obverse number 10. I think that that would sculpt very nicely, obverse number 10. And I would pair that with either number 12 or number 13. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. MR. URAM: Thank you, Mary. Sam? MR. GILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For the obverse I too really like the bucking bronco. And I think it would sell well, it's different, it's -- it is symbolic of the country in many respects and I just think that's a very, very pretty design and I like that a lot. Something more traditional would be number 10. I think it would make a very pretty coin. number 17 just the message of it. I like It wouldn't be my favorite, but I like it. And moving to the reverse I like number 7 in flight. It's very pretty. eagles. I think they're all well done. 9 that Mary likes. Actually, I like all the I like number I like number 11 and then I like number 13 for just the symbolic power of it. And I don't have a favorite eagle. I think Page 92 maybe I do. Maybe it's number 7 too. But that's how I see this round, Tom. MR. URAM: Thank you. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Jeanne? Thank you, Tom. I agree with Sam with the bucking -- number 2 with the bucking bronco. And it is a symbol of America and it's a symbol of the West. It's a symbol of our -- I love the fact that this bronco is casting off the rider and the saddle and everything else and he's -it's pretty -- I think a very powerful piece. And I also think it's important to think about the sun representing hope. So for me this is simple, but complicated and I think it's going to give us a very powerful coin. The other obverse that I think is important but it's rather traditional and that's obverse number 10, number 10 with the Liberty lantern. think we have seen this in past designs. very well done. It's quote beautiful. This -- I I think it's But I don't think it has the power and kind of magic that the bronco has so I'm leaning more towards number 2. To pair it with these we have a lot of very Page 93 interesting eagles. And as one of the comments was that the -- I guess it was Mike that said having the dove with the eagle is not a good idea and I very much agree with that. So I think when we have these two obverses we don't have that complication of prey and predator. My choice is depending on which one we pick. I do like number 11 that might go with some -- reverse number 11 which would pair nicely with the lantern and the fire. But number 12 is my far most pair with the bucking bronco mainly because of its simplicity and we haven't had this. It's a powerful, very -- and I love the strength in his eye. I think this is really wonderful. You know that this bird is going forward, is conquering whatever is out there. represents America. And I think this also Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. URAM: Thank you, Jeanne. Robert? MR. HOGE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. don't have a problem with number 1 obverse. I actually I kind of like seeing this -- I like seeing the cliff climber. Maybe this is the liberty to defy death. Page 94 I'm also partial to the bucking broncos having been thrown many times from horseback. In this case, though, it just looks like someone was really careless in trying to attach a cinch or a knot. Being from Colorado I kind of favor the landscape which looks just like a Colorado driver's license -- or, excuse me, license plate, the old ones at least. The horse on, what is it, number 3 is attractive. I don't know what the butterfly says actually and I didn't know for sure when it first was the cocoon that seems to be attached to the little ring. The dove, I think that's what it is, on number 5 makes me think, ah, he's just popped out of the cuff of a magician and there's the man releasing it. I -- unlike Mike Moran, I don't really favor the flames, especially the flame that's in the hands. That would hurt a burning flame in the palm of your -also I'm really not in favor of the retreads of the torch from the Statute of Liberty that we see on number 9, 10, 11, 11A, so on. Again, they're kind -- Page 95 I mean, they're not unattractive, but they're sort of retreads. I do like the image of number 12 obverse the Emerald City of Oz in the distance if that's what it is or Boston, the city on the hill, and the tree. It's reminiscent of course of the Connecticut State quarter, but what the heck, it's nice. I had a little problem with number 13. that ship coming or going? Either way it's wrong. Is I was trying to decide. I think this is supposed to be the stern of a ship heading off toward a distant horizon there, but if that's the case the rigging is not supporting the masts very well I'm afraid. I had a problem with that. I just I just doesn't seem quite right and it's heading into the crown of the Statute of Liberty or whatever. The bells, bells, bells, let freedom ring, okay, we've done bells before, the Liberty Bell. kind of old. Number 15 I think looks more like a protest movement than a celebration of American liberty. Number 16 to me says this is a Wicca It's Page 96 practitioner or something seeing the barbed wire around the globe, oh. mean? thing. What do all these butterflies Any rate, this is kind of a strange looking And we're looking for modern versions of American Liberty. I don't know if this does it. I had a problem with number 17. This poor little waif is looking away from the Statute of Liberty looking like he's crying like somebody just died or he's about to be struck. I actually like number 18. This is not really a classic rendition of Liberty. It's a young girl, you know, kind of spreading her wings the spread of a flag. It's kind of an attractive thing and it is the verb that we would say here. She's -- you know, she's open to freedom and she's finding it. For the reverses we have a nice portfolio of eagles here. attractive. These are basically all relatively Now how correct they are anatomically I will not address. But number 1 is attractive; although the detail might be a bit fine for portraying of a coin. On number 4 with all the lines coming from Page 97 the little sun in the distance I think that one is a bit problematical. truncations. I don't really care for the The rays in general are a bit of a problem. Number 8 is to me simply too linear. 9 is retro but it's nice. 12, 13, these are nice. Number The other eagles 10, 11, The heads of the eagle on number 12 and number 13 to me are reminiscent of other pieces we've seen before such as the Olympic coins from 1984 and so on, but these are again strong, powerful looking eagles. And if they were paired with the bucking bronco you'd get a nice animal coin. So these -- I think we have a lot of options here and I'm going to be very curious to see how the votes flow and I think they will flow. of nice choices, possibilities. MR. URAM: Thank you. Thank you, Robert. DR. KOTLOWSKI: We have a lot Dr. Kotlowski? Thank you, Mr. Chairman. want to just remind everyone of Mary's motion. I I'm not exactly certain when we should raise that as a motion. Probably when we're through I would imagine having at least had a chance to speak and to think Page 98 about the powerful on both the obverse and the reverse of the Liberty coin because I do think that that was a very powerful image and I do think that was a very, very good idea. And I would -- I’m highly favorable to that. My comments here are a little bit of a mishmash. I'm going to make sure statements here in favor of innovation and also of tradition. So like Robert I really was drawn to the rock climber. I'm not going to give it very many votes because I think it shows stick-to-it-ness and grid and determination more than liberty, but it was interesting to see a guy, and a young guy actually being depicted here. I was pretty -MR. URAM: I thought it was a girl. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: DR. KOTLOWSKI: It's a woman. Oh, it's a woman? I thought it was -- when I was reading this I thought it was that -- okay. Well, obviously I wasn't looking at this carefully or I need to get my glasses checked. So scratch -- so scratch that. I'll keep the vote level at the same at any rate or maybe give it a Page 99 little more, I’m not sure. We'll see what the rest of you say. The butterfly I kind of dismissed right away, but it's -- you know, it's interesting, it's new, it's something a little different so it's fine. reading the comments. I was That's actually not a dove. That is a generic bird so they have not identified it. I was pretty dismissive of the Mustangs and the bucking broncos but people have persuaded me that the first two of these which is, I believe, 2 -- and I do have to look at my glasses here -- 2C is -- C and M which have the sun. I think that those are quite good. I don't like the idea of Liberty as a ball of fire. There's a lot of Wizard of Oz references going on here. she? I think the Wicked Witch had that, didn't And number 8 reminds me of camp fire girls, no objection to camp fire girls. I think, you know, the Liberty torch is fine. If we had to go with that I’m not sure who earlier said -- I think a number of you said number 10 is good. I actually did like the Liberty tree. I’m a Page 100 little bit torn about the town and how you depict that, though. I do want to mention here, again, in the notes -- and I think April read this -- for 15 that's supposed to be an immigrant ship, isn't it? MS. STAFFORD: That was part of the submission by the artist. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Evidently. See, I think again the problem there is, you know, people who came over later didn't come over on those sorts of ships so we're being very time specific. 14 reminds me of the Eisenhower dollar for the bicentennial and I don't think that was an immensely inspiring coin. Number 16 suggests American imperialism. I know what -- I read the notes and said that, you know, the barbed wire is supposed to be the countries that don't have liberty but, you know, she's there. Number 17 I think that it's an interesting image. I don't want to be too oppositional to it. It's kind of like a little bit of a stereotypical image too in a way and it brought to mind something Page 101 that I hadn't thought of in years. There was a cartoon that ran called Dondi and that's what that vaguely reminded me of. And he was a war orphan. So and I'm going to skip over the last one because I didn't particularly like that. And, again, I think with the eagles I think a lot of this is fairly traditional so if I pick a traditional theme or coin I -- I’m comfortable with it. I actually like number 1 a lot. I think that there's a good narrative there and that would kind of pair, reinforce the Walking Liberty Suffragette obverse. Number 9 is fine. of the peace dollar. I think that's evocative And I -- I have to dissent from what other people said about 12 and 13. I think the eagle looks too aggressive there and I don't think that's a good message for the United States to send. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. URAM: Okay, Dean. Thank you. And Robin? MS. SALMON: I was initially enamored of butterflies, but I've changed my mind. I've been Page 102 persuaded that the bucking bronco is pretty darn good. It's different. It will appeal to a very broad range of people and I prefer the sun there. I do sort of like the flame in number 7. I don't see any of the drawbacks that anybody else said. I look at it purely symbolically and it's an interesting design and my eye was drawn to it for that reason. I think it could make a beautiful coin and medal. I won't go over others because other people have said a lot of about them. MR. URAM: MS. SALMON: MR. URAM: If you don't mind me interrupting. Yeah. Please don't vote because we are going to have a motion above and beyond that. So, Robin, you can finish but please don’t -MS. SALMON: MR. URAM: MS. SALMON: Okay. -- vote until we're finished. For the reverse I prefer the eagles in motion and I liked the idea of pairing -it's hard to see -- 4 and 5. Those with the sun raised behind them with the horse sort of continuing Page 103 that sun allegory from the obverse to the reverse. Both of the birds are flying. I like that better than the static bird. Although if I had to choose a static bird I would go with number 12, the detail of the eagle's head. I don't see it as aggressive. That's how an eagle looks at all times whether it's being friendly or aggressive. So it's a recognizable symbol. I also like Mary's idea and think that that could be a very beautiful design as well. MR. URAM: Okay, Robin. Thank you. now have gravitated towards the bronco in 2A. I too I like the ground, though, versus the sun simply because of a couple reasons. Number one, when I look at the sun I think more of a Pegasus-type image. If it was going to be a Pegasus-type image that would have been on there I think that'd be perfect. I like the ground in 2A simply because that's where it belongs. So and then further I think that from a selfish point of view this will sell. I mean, this is the kind of thing that I think we have an image here that does the liberty, it's a visual, it's Page 104 totally different than what we're used to. So there were a lot of great designs in this, but I do like the ground versus the sun simply because of that. And then also from a marketing side maybe you guys team this up -- I'll give the marketing a hint here. You know, may you tee this up with an old Buffalo nickel as well when you do your marketing or tie it in. If you do a -- maybe you do the old 5 -- $10 Buffalo bill -- $10 bill like we've done a Queen of currency sets. We do the $10 Buffalo bill with this as the coin as part of marketing. So I just I think this is a homerun in my opinion. The next thing would be the reverse designs and I too like the simplicity. If we stick with the ground I tend to like 11C better than the other because you have the ground, then you have the branch and, you know, it kind of all relates. And I do like that eagle in the design that is captured there. But I think there are just a lot of great designs here. And then I too like the simplicity of number 12 or 12C for that matter for the medal. reverse selections would be that. So my Page 105 So with that in mind I sure would entertain a motion also as we move forward to include the Women's Suffrage WS-0-05 as part of our consideration. And would Mary like to make that motion? MS. LANNIN: I would like to make the motion just as you stated it and looking for a second. DR. KOTLOWSKI: MR. URAM: Second. Second by Dr. Dean. favor for it -- you're not voting for it. All those in You are including it in your selection process in which you will then be able to vote for it. MR. WEINMAN: MR. URAM: As part of the tool. Right. Okay. All those in favor signify by saying aye. (A chorus of ayes.) MR. URAM: Opposed? Carries unanimously. So add into your sheet WS-0-05 as part of the selection. Thank you. Joe, would you like to make any final comments? MR. MENNA: Sure. I think just artistically and even from a vision sense, you know, our Liberty Page 106 coin should always represent something that's forward looking and represents the present going forward. Something we've been doing for a couple of years now. I think it's been very successful. So I think the bronco actually is something that's never been done. I'm not talking as trying to imitate a Committee member by the way I'm speaking, but I disagree with you, Mr. Chairman, in that if the sun provides artistically the horse as a radial arc to it. And the way that that sun -- semi-circle of the sun with the rays of the sun kind of anchored the movement of that horse very specifically to the -that point of the coin. So that would be my only comment. Otherwise I appreciate your time and entertaining my comments. MR. URAM: Okay. Noted. Thanks. If everyone would please vote and then turn in your sheets to Greg. MR. WEINMAN: Do you want to recess for lunch and come back? MR. URAM: And then we will be recessing for Page 107 lunch and we will return. MR. WEINMAN: We'll return at 1:15. We're in recess. (Off the record.) MR. URAM: meeting. Okay. I'd like to reconvene our And at this time I'd like to ask April Stafford to -MR. WEINMAN: MR. URAM: results. Yes. Results. Oh, that's right. We need to do that. MR. WEINMAN: Yeah. We have the Go ahead, Greg. A couple of things. Before -MR. URAM: I guess you're all awake for this. MR. WEINMAN: We are. Make a couple of notes before we tell you the results of the scoring. I often say, once again, this is a tool. And as Just to note, I mean, of course the CCAC is welcome to any of our innovations that it feels are appropriate. With respect to the addition of the design from the Women's Suffrage portfolio just keep in mind that the charge to the artist was to create a design that was not necessarily an allegorical woman. And so Page 108 there is a -- not that that should influence how you necessarily -- what you recommend, but do keep in mind that that was what the charge to the artists was after having discussed it with CCAC. So and I mention this only casually that, of course, whatever is appropriate for (inaudible) what's important, but this is somewhat of a competition among artists. And so just keep in mind while this does not any way disqualify the additional entry, it isn't really what was in the rules of the way it was laid out. That doesn't mean it's not necessarily the best fit for this program. I'll make one more note after I go through the results because I think it's interesting. But more importantly going back to the results of the tally, Obverse 1 received two votes, Obverse 2 received seventeen votes, Obverse 2A received fourteen votes. And I'll just make a note on that that the -- there were some of you who voted for 2, but not 2A, some who voted for 2A, but not 2. So in other words, although they're very similar designs and maybe that is a bit of a bifurcating vote. But nonetheless, 2 is Page 109 seventeen votes, 2A is fourteen votes. 3 received two votes, 4 received one vote, 5 received one vote, 6 received one vote, 7 received two votes, 8 received zero votes, Obverse 9 received two votes, Obverse 10 received six votes, 11 and 12 both received -- I'm sorry, 11 and 11A both received zero votes, 12 received five votes, 13 received one, 14, 15, and 16 all received zero, 17 received two votes, 18 received four votes, and the additional Woman's Suffrage O05 received sixteen votes. So there's obviously a close -- not a tie, but close pairing or grouping there. Moving to the reverse of eagles Reverse Number 1 received eight, 2 received two, Reverse 3 received two, 3A and 4 received zero, 5 received three votes, 6 received two votes, Reverse 7 received six votes, 8 received zero, Reverse 9 received eleven votes, Reverse 10 received three, Reverse 11 received eight, Reverse 12 received fifteen votes which is the highest vote getter, and Reverse 13 received seven. MR. URAM: Okay, Greg. Thank you. any discussion or any motions at this point? Is there Page 110 DR. KOTLOWSKI: MR. URAM: I have a question. Dr. Dean, go ahead. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Mr. Chairman, the recommendations of the Committee they'll go to the director and to the secretary for decisions and things. Will they see the scores and see how close they were and take that into account or will they just see the final recommendation? MR. WEINMAN: We do generally include the votes how -- to show intensity of the recommendations. The -- we generally -- while the score sheet itself is part of the public record, we generally don't communicate the individual votes to the secretary in a decision memo. MR. URAM: Yeah. In the past when I've also done the letters if it's close two, three, four votes I usually include both as well like. DR. KOTLOWSKI: I think I would be satisfied if we -- I'm not going to make a motion, you know, that we make dual recommendations or anything like that. But if we were able to -- you know, to convey the closeness of the vote to the secretary and let -- Page 111 you know, let them make the decision. MR. URAM: Thank you, Dr. Dean. MS. LANNIN: Greg, I have a question. Now that I've sort of tossed this up in the air will the -- will everyone know about the motion that we added the -MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: Oh, yes. Okay. MR. WEINMAN: Yeah. That'll be in the record. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: motions? Okay. All right. Any other further discussion? Seeing none, we'll move on. Any Thank you very much, Greg. MR. WEINMAN: MR. URAM: Mm-hmm. Thank, everyone. At this time I will follow up and ask April now to review the designs. April is the Mint's Office of Design and Management and she's going to present the obverse and reverse candidate designs for the 2021 United States Navy two-and-a-half ounce silver medal. April, thank you. Page 112 MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. Six months after the first shots of the Revolutionary War were fired at Lexington and Concord the Continental Congress took its first steps towards establishing an American Navy. On October 13th, 1775, that body voted to purchase and fit out two swift sailing vessels to intercept British armed transports in route to America. Over the next ten weeks Congress moved rapidly to enlarge and mobilize this nascent Naval force authorizing additional ship purchases, a program of new ship construction, the establishment of a code of naval discipline, and the commissioning of its first Naval officers and the Continental Navy was born. While the Naval Service was born out of war and war fighting has been central to its purpose, depending the American homeland has not been its sole mission. Indeed the service has often been the face of the United States abroad diplomatically, economically, and culturally as well as leading humanitarian and disaster relief. Additionally, the Navy has been an innovator Page 113 and pioneer in the fields of science, medicine, cartography, engineering, and exploration. It should also be noted that the U.S. Navy is comprised of three distinct communities -- submarine, surface, and aviation. Each is essential to fulfilling the Navy -- Navy's mission to protect the citizens of the United States and the country's global interests. Some general notes, all ship numbers depicted as 67 for the U.S.S. Cole will be changed to 53 in reference to the U.S.S. John Paul Jones. Originally the Navy sought to honor the U.S.S. Cole, but now it prefers to use the historic connection of the John Paul Jones name. The inscription "forged by the sea" in most cases will be changed to "don't give up the ship," again for the historical connections. "Don’t give up the ship" is a quote from Commodore Oliver Perry during the War of 1812. The Navy has identified the following favored designs all with equal rankings. For the obverses we have Obverse 4, Obverse 10 and 10A; and for the Obverse Reverse 4. Also for the reverses Obverse 3 Page 114 has been identified, Obverse 12, and Reverse 19. So for our Committee members I'll read that one more time. We won't put them up on the screen, but just so you have it in your notes. The Navy has identified the following favored designs all with equal rankings for the obverse of the medal: Obverses 4, 10, 10A, and Reverse 4; and for the reverse, Obverse 3, Obverse 12, and Reverse 19. We have with us today historians from the Naval History and Heritage Command Charles Brodine, Supervisor -- Supervisory Historian; Dr. Richard Hulver, Deputy -- Acting Deputy of the History's Branch; and Gale Munro, the Curator of the Navy Art Collection. Mr. Brodine, would you like to say a few words? MR. BRODINE: pleasure to be here. Good afternoon. It's a We're -- there's one member of the team that was not able to come today. like to mention her name. Hughes. I'd just That's Ms. Christine She's a historian with the command, has worked with me in the documentary history section. So Page 115 she was a marvelous participant in our team effort to support the design here. This is for me -- and maybe I can speak for all of us, it's been an exciting project for us all to work on because we're helping to inform the design of a coin that's going to be struck and it's going to be available for public sale, but it's something that we can actually hold in our hands. So anyway, this was an exciting project to be involved in and very interested to see the results of you deliberations today. MS. STAFFORD: All right. obverse candidate designs. and new. Starting on the Obverse 1 balances the old The U.S.S. Constitution launched in 1897 and the world's oldest commissioned Naval vessel still afloat is seen next to a modern day Arleigh BurkeClass Destroyer. Below the water is the Navy's U.S.S. Nautilus, the world's first nuclear powered submarine. Inscriptions include "United States Navy" and "forced by the sea." Obverse 3 depicts sailors manning the rails. A centuries' old practice for rendering honors aboard Page 116 Naval vessels. A formation of F-18 Hornets fly by leaving smoke trails in the sky also paying honor. Inscriptions are "United States Navy" and "honor, courage, commitment," the Navy's core values. Obverse 4 portrays a U.S. Navy Arleigh BurkeClass Destroyer cutting through the water while the U.S.S. Constitution sails behind it. A formation of Boeing F-18 Hornets fly by leaving smoke trails in the sky paying honor to both ships. Inscriptions are "United States Navy" and "Don't give up the ship," the latter spoke by mortally wounded Commander James Lawrence to his crew on the U.S.S. Chesapeake during the War of 1812. Obverse 5 highlights the old and new. The U.S.S. Constitution under full sail is silhouetted behind and Arleigh Burke-Class Destroyer as old technology gives way to the advanced multi-mission destroyer of today. The inscription "United States Navy" is offset across the top border. Obverses 6 and 6A feature the U.S.S. Constitution alongside a U.S. Navy Arleigh Burke Class- Destroyer while an aircraft formation flies Page 117 overhead. The inscription "United States Navy" is found at the bottom of the design. Obverse 6A includes the additional inscription "forged by the sea." Obverse 7 features the U.S.S. Constitution under full sail in the open ocean accompanied by a few seagulls. The inscriptions are "forged by the sea" and "U.S.S. Constitution." Obverse 8 depicts the U.S.S. Constitution on the open seas surrounded by 13 stars around the border. Below the ship is the inscription "United States Navy." Obverse 9 portrays the U.S. Navy sailors performing the manning of the rails tradition, a ceremonial display of honor and respect. The inscription "forged by the sea" is found at the top of the design which is balanced by the inscription "United States Navy" at the bottom. Obverses 10, 10A, and 10B all depict three U.S. Navy platforms representing three Navy communities -- air, surface, and undersea. Denoting these communities are an F-18 Hornet, an Arleigh Page 118 Burke-Class Destroy, and U.S.S. John Paul Jones, and a Virginia-Class Submarine with dry deck shelter for seal operations. Obverse 10 features an inset with the Department of the Navy emblem, 10A features an inset with the U.S.S. Constitution, and 10B removes the inset from the design. Obverse 12 features a line of sailors manning the rails while the American flag flies in the background. Inscriptions are "United States Navy" and the core values of "honor, courage, and commitment." Obverse 13 features the ship's bell from the U.S.S. Constitution. Rigging from the ship flanks the bell on either side. Bells were used for signaling, keeping time, and sounding alarms along with other ceremonial purposes. Around the border is the inscription "United States Navy." Obverse 14 depicts a ship's bell. Inscriptions included "don't give up the ship," and October 13, 1775." Obverse 15 features a fouled anchor, an anchor with a rope entwined around it with a backdrop Page 119 of an ocean and horizon. The anchor is enveloped in a banner inscribed with "forged by the sea." Obverses 16 and 16A depict an anchor surrounded by a porthole with a view looking out on the sea. The Navy's core values of "honor, courage, and commitment" are inscribed onto the porthole treatment. Obverse 16A seen here substitutes a fouled anchor. Onto the reverses. Reverse 3 depicts sailors manning the rails while paying respect to the U.S.S. Arizona memorial at Pearl Harbor above stylized water as the American flag flies overhead. is seen in the foreground. The Navy emblem 13 stars are across the bottom border while "courage, honor, and commitment" are inscribed beneath the memorial. Reverse 4 depicts three of the Navy's most common platforms -- an F-14 fighter jet, a destroyer represented by the U.S.S. John Paul Jones, and a Virginia-Class Submarine in stylized water. The inscriptions "United States Navy" and "forged by the sea" encircle the design. Page 120 Reverse 5 centrally features the U.S.S. Constitution under sail. The inscriptions "U.S.S. Constitution," "U.S. Navy," and "honor, courage, and commitment" surround the ship on the border. Reverse 6 depicts the U.S.S. Constitution under full sail. The inscriptions "forged by the sea," "Old Ironsides," and "1797," the year she was launched, arced across the top and bottom borders. Reverses 9 and 10 feature the symbolic fouled anchor used by the U.S. Navy. The outer ring includes the inscriptions "honor, courage, and commitment" and the Navy's establishment date of October 13th, 1775. Reverse 10 moves the rope circle to the rim and includes the inscriptions "United States Navy" and "founded October 13th, 1775." Reverse 11 depicts elements inspired by the United States Navy emblem, a shield, a bald eagle, and an anchor. Around the border are the inscriptions "United States Navy" and "honor, courage, and commitment." Reverse 12 depicts a partial view of a traditional Navy officer's cover with the inscription Page 121 "United States Navy" found along the left border. Reverse 13 features three Navy covers representing an enlisted sailor, chief petty officer, and officer superimposed on a riveted background. Reverses 14 and 15 recall the hand-sewn flag created by Commodore Oliver Hazard Perry with the ocean as a background. Commodore Perry was inspired to create the flag which was flown at the Battle of Lake Erie by the words of Commander James Lawrence during the War of 1812. The inscription on the flag "don’t give up the ship" is fashioned after the lettering found on Perry's flag. Reverse 15 features a close up of the flag. Reverses 16 and 17 depicts a tall ship with tattered sails having survived a battle with Commodore Perry's hand-sewn flag in the foreground. Reverse 17 includes a porthole treatment around the border. Reverse 18 portrays the Department of the Navy emblem with the rope treatment on the border. The inscription "don’t give up the ship" is rendered in the style of the lettering from Commodore Perry's hand-sewn flag. Page 122 Reverse 19 combines elements of the Navy's history. Commodore Perry's hand-sewn battle flag with the inscription "don't give up the ship" waves proudly above modern elements of the Navy emblem that include a bald eagle, anchor, and shield. Rope and chains borders encircle the design. And Reverse 20 centrally features Commodore Perry's hand-sewn flag hanging from an anchor. border encircles the rim. A rope Inscriptions are "anchors away" and "don't give up the ship." And if you would like, Mr. Chairman, I'll just reiterate one more time our liaisons favored designs for obverse -- Obverse 4, Obverse 10 and 10A, as well as Reverse 4. And for the reverse, Obverse 3, Obverse 12, and Reverse 19. MR. TUCKER: April, what was that last reverse? UNKNOWN FEMALE: What are the reverses again, April? MS. STAFFORD: For the reverses the preferred designs are Obverse 3, Obverse 12, and Reverse 19. MR. URAM: Thank you, April. Okay. Before Page 123 we begin our discussion are there any questions regarding any technical issues of any kind before we begin? MR. TUCKER: I have a -- I have a question about the legends used. our liaisons. Sometimes -- and this is for Sometimes when United States is abbreviated it's U period S period and sometimes it's US with no periods. Is there a preference there or does that not matter? MR. BRODINE: I'm an editor. I would use periods. MR. TUCKER: Okay. MR. BRODINE: So that would be my preference, but, Gale or Richard? MR. HULVER: I would agree with that with the MR. TUCKER: Yes. periods. MR. URAM: Okay. Thank you. Joe, do you have an artistic opinion on that? MR. MENNA: No. Whatever -- whatever the stakeholders prefer I stand by. MR. URAM: Okay. And once again, Charles, Page 124 Richard, Gale, thanks for joining us. let's begin with our discussion. And with that, And, Robert, would you like to kick it off? MR. HOGE: designs. them. Okay. These are attractive It's a little hard to try to decide among And I think that the liaisons even found this too switching back and forth from obverses and reverses as we sometimes find ourselves doing. There are a few cases where there seems to be some redundancy and some where the style of the artwork or the treatment in the designs might make it a bit difficult. And perhaps Joe could assist us a little bit because I'm a little uncomfortable, for instance, with number 5 and number 6 and 6A because of the appearance of one vessel as a shadowy image and the other as something more heavily engraved or perhaps of higher relief but shown as in the foreground. I'm always a bit dubious about things that show a difference in relief when there's so little relief to be displayed on a U.S. quarter. you comment on that, please, Joe? So could Page 125 UNKNOWN FEMALE: MR. HOGE: MR. MENNA: It's a medal. A medal, excuse me. Excuse me. Even if it was a coin -- I mean, this is a medal, but even if it was -- yeah, it's twoand-a-half inches, pretty big, two inches, whatever. And I don't mean whatever. I mean, like, even if it was a coin, a quarter, we can do it. MR. HOGE: MR. MENNA: for years. I know you can do it. We hear this from the Committee I'm a former Committee member. Oh, that's too low, the Mint sculptors can't sculpt it. Yes, they can. MR. HOGE: MR. MENNA: I know you can do it. That's just the artistic preference here with one that's kind of ghostly. get it. I I don't think it's meant to look like, you know, a ghost ship. MR. HOGE: Looks like ghost out of the past or something. MR. MENNA: MR. HOGE: MR. MENNA: If it is -- it is receding. How would you render that? I know that this artist is very Page 126 familiar with the process so he or she in making that lighter is making it as a mat for us the sculptors to read the relief depth as you describe it. And we can pull it off. MR. HOGE: MR. MENNA: MR. HOGE: MR. MENNA: way. How would you do that? Make it lower. Just make it lower? I don't mean that in a facetious I mean, we'd make the relief lower in the background and make it higher in the foreground within the parameters. See, when we sculpt a relief we have what's called a minimum relief height for proof polishing and then we have a maximum relief height for portability so we don't have non-filling issues on that. And then we sculpt within that envelope. But what happens with medals is we have a little more flexibility. Like, I'm honestly not sure because my memory fails me if this is going to be polished or if it's just metal. So if this isn't polished there's no minimum relief height. I mean, there's -- yeah, there's no minimum relief height and this -- this -- that background ship can be sculpted Page 127 very low. And you remember also, you know, I don't know if you've been to our shop, but we sculpt in clay and also on the computer on a much larger scale so we do have a lot more control that what would take over that just intuitively as we sculpt. MR. HOGE: Would it look faded or cloudy or ghostly or something like that in your final product? MR. MENNA: I think we would -- that would be up to -- there is certain license permitted to the sculptors as they work. But as the art director I would ask them to keep it crisp, but low and in contrast it would look lighter. By contrast it would necessarily look lighter than the higher-relief ship. Actually, we figure it out to your satisfaction. MR. HOGE: I do like this. I like the juxtaposition of the old past behind the present ship coming forward. So that's an important consideration. MR. URAM: One second, yeah, Dennis wants to make a comment also on that. MR. TUCKER: Joe, I think you designed and Page 128 sculpted one of the 9/11 Congressional gold medals, the Pennsylvania medal; is that right? MR. MENNA: MR. TUCKER: Yes, sir. Yeah. refer you to that medal. That -- and, Bob, I would Take a look at that because I think what Joe did is similar to this design. You have an almost ghostly, softer background and it works. You know, it looks good. And you might look at a sketch of it and say that's not going to translate into medallic sculpture, but as Joe said, the artists know how to make it work. MR. HOGE: Well, I do like that. I like that a little more than the combinations showing the different divisions in the Navy and these various different other planes and horizons. I have a problem with number 8 the rendition there of the U.S.S. Constitution. I just I don’t see how that could be exactly accurate the way the spars are projected, but I don't know. What exactly are we talking about when we say a fouled anchor? Is that just one that has a rope still attached to it or a rope that is not connected Page 129 to the rest of the chain or rope? MR. BRODINE: Can anyone tell me? Rope, the cable encircling the anchor. MR. HOGE: And why is this called a fouled anchor? MR. BRODINE: around the anchor. Well, because it's tangled I'm trying to think of the right kind of phrasing when you run afoul of something you're -MR. HOGE: It's problematic? MR. BRODINE: But so a fouled anchor is an anchor that is -- it has a bit of the chain or the rope cable entwined around it. MR. HOGE: I see. Instead of just stretching off -UNKNOWN FEMALE: Then going straight to the bottom because it's tangled in itself. MR. BRODINE: And it wouldn’t be the kind of anchor that -- I mean, you'd have to unfoul it to actually be able to use the anchor. But it's a decorative device that's centuries old. what a fouled anchor is. But that's Page 130 MR. HOGE: Well, I like many of these designs and don't really have a strong preference except that now I'm in favor of number 5. MR. URAM: Okay, Robert. Thank you. And then keep in mind you also have the sizing down on the bottom of your sheet here so that you're able to look at the additional rendering. Dr. Kotlowski? DR. KOTLOWSKI: Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. I find myself in a lot of agreement with things that Robert just said. I'm going to go through these maybe in just a little bit more depth, give you a little bit more in the way of impressions. To some extent I like number 3. not doing a coin here. This is a medal. was talking about a principle. I know we're But somebody Again, it's not something we have to follow, but just a sensibility where maybe on one side you have people and on the other side you have something else and they kind of come together and they tell a story. So I like number 3. The one that -- I'd be kind of curious if Page 131 anybody feels the way I do. was number 12. The one I really liked I like number 12 with the sailors. I thought that the diversity was -- this is the people. This is honor, courage, commitment. I thought it would make even a better coin if you didn't have "United States Navy" there. think that's obvious. taken off. You had the sailors. I I'm not saying it has to be Probably a reverse would have "United States Navy," but see what you think. Like Robert if we have to do something on one single side of a coin, if we feel we have to showing a historical progression, I thought there was more artistic elegance in having a somewhat faded sailing ship like maybe the U.S.S. Constitution era and then having a ship forging, you know, a modern destroyer or whatever forging into the future. I thought 6 and 6A, again, I thought it was just a little heavy handed the way they did that. I don't think anybody will probably go for this, but number 8. There's some sort of lithograph of the U.S.S. Constitution on the full sale where it's tilted like that. And if you really wanted to do Page 132 something very traditional you could take number 8 and match it with number 4 for the reverse and then you've have the ship under full sale and you'd have all of the, you know, the different branches. I got a feeling people might think and I -well, I shouldn't say what people might think. I think that might -- just my own feeling, that might be a little static in terms of things. I don't really know what to make of 10 and 10A. I can see why the Navy would like that. I think that this does project a kind of excitement and motion and I think that they are interesting. Since we're making some trouble here in terms of making suggestions I wonder if that might make a nice reverse to the number 12 that I would suggest for the obverse. But I'm just going -- I'm not making a formal motion. Just something to think about. And I'd be very curious to hear what everyone else has to say. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. MR. URAM: MS. SALMON: page. Okay, Dean. Sorry. Thank you. Robin? I need to get to my I liked number 5 obverse with the U.S.S. Page 133 Constitution and the modern ship. There. That contrast of the old and the new, the history and the present I think is important and there's also motion and I like that very much. Number 13 for the obverse. While there's no motion, it is symbolic of the Navy at least in my mind and it has very strong design element. And then 16 and 16A I also like the text "honor, courage and commitment," the sea in the background through the porthole and the anchor. I think it makes a beautiful design. Then for the reverse number 4 seems to be a very clean image contemporary, but telling the story of the present. I also like number 13, the covers and the rivets. And that's just purely from a design standpoint. It appeals to me. And then number 20 that also has great design appeal to me. I also like "anchors away" up there. Now as far as putting them together I don't have a strong feeling about that at all. Those are just the obverses and the reverse -- reverses that I like the best. Page 134 MR. URAM: MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Robin. Dennis? Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think what I'll do is I want to discuss two obverse/reverse pairings that I was attracted to before this meeting, but then modify after hearing our liaisons' feedback. The first pairing was Obverse 5 with Reverse 9. I think Obverse 5 is an attractive design. nice typography and a classic look. It has And as I mentioned earlier, I'm confident that the Mint's designers and artists can pull this off. And then that would be combined with Reverse 9 but with U.S. Navy deleted because it would be repetitive. And I -- this is just a good, classical kind of depiction of the symbolism of the U.S. Navy. There might be a bit of a risk that this looks like any other challenge coin that a serving or retired service member has in their collection and they already have seen this a million times or it might be something that's appealing simply because it is so traditional. The second pairing that I originally thought Page 135 of was Obverse 12. percent. And, Dean, I agree with you 100 I like the fact that this design captures the human element. As much as the U.S. Navy is about equipment and armament and machinery, it is really more importantly made up of Americans and that's what this design depicts. And I envision that combined with Reverse 4 which, again, has all three platforms -- air, surface, submarine. And we talked about how "forged by the sea" will be replaced by "don't give up the ship." So those were my original thoughts pre-meeting. Since our liaisons have weighed in with their preferences I am leaning towards Reverse 4 and Obverse 12. And I know that our liaisons preferred those reversed, if you will, with Reverse 4 being the obverse and Obverse 12 being reverse. fine. I think that's I would actually prefer this obverse design as the obverse and Reverse 4 as the reverse, but that's -- those are my comments. MR. URAM: MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Okay, Dennis. Thank you. I'm sorry. I do have one Mary? technical question I wanted to get clarification on. Page 136 What is the diameter of this particular medal? MS. STAFFORD: MR. TUCKER: Two inches. It's 2 inches? Okay. Thank you. MR. URAM: Okay, Dennis. Thanks again. And, Mary? MS. LANNIN: Well, I'd like to say that our liaisons beat us to the punch because it's usually use that winds up scrambling the designs. agree with Dennis. The designs that I feel go well together I do like 05. obverse. However, I I wouldn't call -- this is the I wouldn't call it a ghost ship, but it's the ship of everyone's memory and so I feel that that's important. The downside of this is it doesn't involve any of the air exercises of the Navy. But, I mean, I think that that's just a really stunning design. If I were a Navy Veteran or in the market to purchase this I would really want to see number 9 or number 10 for the reverse. I think that that's -- this is for the reverse to go with 05. There we go. I would expect to see that logo in some way, shape, or Page 137 form on the reverse of whatever we do for this medal. I think that that's almost a given. Another combination with either the reverse of 9 or 10 would be to use -- which is what our liaison preferred -- Reverse 4 as an obverse. So I think it's clean looking, there's a lot of negative space that we can deal with, and then it combines itself with a very familiar logo that would be familiar to any purchaser of this medal. I also agree with Dennis, but I would flip what the Navy would like to do. Obverse 12 to show the people. I think that's just great. I like number -I love that diagonal. I love showing the various members and ethnicities of the Navy personnel. And I would pair that with either Reverse 4, which is what Dennis had mentioned, or Reverse 9 or 10 which would have the logo. So people and logo and ghost ship and logo and Reverse 4 as an obverse and logo would be my choices. Thank you very much. MR. URAM: Thank you, Mary. Sam? MR. GILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, initially -- and I still probably prefer what I'm Page 138 going to say now -- is obverse number 3 tells a story about the people. And the Navy is people, it's Americans, as Dennis said. And if you've ever seen the sailors at the rail it's a very, very impressive sight. And then the reverse for me was going to be number 10. And that to me told the whole story of the Navy. In terms of our liaisons choices the Obverse 10A would probably be my choice. It just incorporates all of the various segments of the Navy going back to the beginning. And then reverse number 3. The Arizona is a powerful monument and it does bring in the people there and they would be my observations. Thank you. MR. URAM: Thank you, Sam. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Chairman. Jeanne? Thank you, Mr. This is -- I think so many of these designs are really wonderful and I want to give kudos to the artists that took the time to elaborate on the divisions of the Navy because I think that's important to state in this medal. Page 139 What I find I agree with Robert about Obverse 5. I think that's quite a beautiful coin and I love the fact that that ship is in the distance in the past and our contemporary battleship is up forward. And I think that's quite dynamic. And I also like obverse number 3 because we do have, you know, the Air Force -- the Navy air force in there. But particularly the female sailor is up front and I like that because it shows diversity in enrollment and it's quite a lovely piece so I'm favoring that one. I'm sorry -- I'm sorry for my not highly recommending obverse number 10. I think both 10 and 10A are a bit busy with the emblems in there. And I know it's important to have them, but I think we can have all of that with a different kind of design. So I'm going to keep with those number 3 and number 5 for obverse and for reverse I do also like reverse number 3. I think that's quite good; however, if we choose 3 then, you know, the obverse shouldn't be all the sailors by the rail. So I think we have to sort of tell a complete story here if we can. Page 140 So Reverse 4 which I truly think is a fabulous design and I think that for either side obverse or reverse we should really think about this one. And also I have to agree with the reverse number 10 to have the emblem on the back. And reverse number 19 still has the emblem kind of broken up a little bit, we still have that, but I do like that interpretation of the text and the emblem. I think that's quite nice. to the artists. So, again, kudos I think you all did a very fine job. Thank you. MR. URAM: Thanks, Jeanne. I'll just finish up with a couple additional thoughts. I do like obverse number 12 because it does recognize the sailors and they are standing as well. Might not have the bridge in front of them, but it's implied. And I know we don't want to mix match, but my first thought was it would go great with Obverse 16, 12 and 16, because it basically -- that's what they see. So, you know, I kind of thought, you know, that would make a nice match and it shows human element. If we don't do that which I guess we probably Page 141 won't, then I'm leaning more towards I do like number 4. I know -- you know, number 9, number 10 I know that we gravitate towards that and it does say a lot; however, it's just too challenge coin looking to me. You know, it's just -- it doesn't -UNKNOWN MALE: MR. URAM: It's another medal. It's been done. -- you know, yeah, it's been done. It's the same. So I would hope that the Navy would want a little bit more than that. So but I do like number 19 as a combination. So we have the sailors and the visuals of people on the obverse of number 12 and then we have the symbolism that the Navy would want I think in number -- in 19. It doesn't show the battleships, doesn't show the airplanes, doesn't show that, but it tells the story of -- you know, I kind of think it's implied that they do have ships and they do have airplanes, you know. So that's my thought so with that I'll pass it onto Greg. But before I do that I'll ask Joe if he would like to make any comments. MR. MENNA: Thank you very much, Mr. Page 142 Chairman. I appreciate that. One thing about Reverse 4 that I would just caution anyone looking at is, you know, nothing in nature is this symmetrical. Symmetries boring. symmetrical. Even are faces aren't truly And this is more or less symmetrical along the horizontal axis. You have almost a 50/50 distribution of the mast from the -- you know, from the destroyer down and then negative space up and then the submarine counterbalances the aircraft. So to my eye this is not as interesting as, say, the obverse that many spoke about that had the strong diagonal of all the sailors going down in a row. It's just something that caught my eye. I'm not saying that it should catch yours. an observation. And It's just Thank you for your time. MR. URAM: Okay. Thank you, Joe. And then please score accordingly and we'll go from there. MR. WEINMAN: MR. URAM: minutes. Can we recess? And then we'll also recess for ten So about 20 after if you'd like to return. (Off the record.) Page 143 MR. URAM: At this time we'll have the results of our voting. And I call on Rogers Vasquez for -- to announce those. Roger? MR. VASQUEZ: Yes, sir. All righty. Starting with the Navy obverse designs. Navy Obverse 01 got one point, 03 has ten points, 04 has four points, 05 has nineteen points and that was the highest vote getter, Obverse 6 has zero points, 6A was zero, 7 was zero, 8 was one, 9 was one, 10 was zero, 10A was three, 10B was zero, 12 had fourteen votes, 13 had four, 14 had one, 15 had zero, 16 had four, and 16A had two. So that was 05 with nineteen and second to that was 12 with fourteen votes. Should I proceed to the reverse? MR. URAM: Sure. MR. VASQUEZ: Okay. For the Navy reverse designs, Reverse 3 had four points, Reverse 4 had eleven points. Reverse 19. That was tied for most points with Reverse 5 had one point, Reverse 6 had one point, Reverse 9 had five points, 10 had ten Page 144 points. That was the second -- I guess that would be the -MR. WEINMAN: Could you slow down a little bit, please? MR. VASQUEZ: Yes, sir. Reverse 10 had ten points, Reverse 11 had zero points, Reverse 12 had two points, Reverse 13 had six points, 14 had zero votes, 15 had zero votes, 16 had zero votes, 17 had zero votes, 18 had zero votes, 19 had eleven votes, and 20 had zero votes. So 19 and 4 both had eleven points and that was filed by Reverse 10 that had ten points. MR. URAM: Thank you, Roger. Would anyone like to make any motions? MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: MS. LANNIN: I would. Mary? I would like to make a motion that we use Obverse 05 with our faded ship in the background because I think that's just going to be terrific with what Joe and everyone can do. And I would like to pair that in my motion with Reverse 4. Obverse 5 had 19 votes. Obverse 5 had 19 Page 145 points so we have a tie with reverses. with number 4 and a tie with number 19. We have a tie And I would like to pair 5 with 4. MR. URAM: Is there a second before we move on? MR. TUCKER: MR. URAM: I would second that. Dennis seconds. MS. LANNIN: No, no, no, no. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. LANNIN: Wait, wait. Excuse me. Jeanne wants to talk. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Can we have a discussion about that? MR. URAM: We were going to have a discussion after the motion. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: After the motion? Thank you. MR. URAM: Okay. So we have a motion made by Mary, second by Dennis to pair Obverse 5 with Obverse 4. Motion to approve that or let's have discussion first. Okay. Discussion? MR. TUCKER: MR. URAM: Reverse 4. With Reverse 4, I'm sorry. Page 146 Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, thank you. Thank The only problem that I have with this pairing is that we have ships, just the ships. And I think that both of these are really strong designs, but I think that they compete wanting to be the obverse. And I love this one. I think it would be great; however, I think if we use this then we need to have a different pairing. support that motion. MS. URAM: the same way. So therefore I can't Thank you. Thank you, Jeanne. I really feel I just think -- I do like both designs, but I would rather team it up with 19, the tied choice -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. URAM: Yes. -- simply because it does bring out the flag that's been very significant in the deliberations of all the descriptions and it has the other emblematic features that would support Obverse 5. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes. Page 147 MR. URAM: So my thought is that I would be more for that pairing than I would be the other pairing. Robert? MR. HOGE: And also if we were to pair these there is some degree of redundancy. It's showing the same ship on both sides. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes. Yeah. Sorry about that. MR. URAM: Dr. Dean? DR. KOTLOWSKI: I believe we've done things like this before where we've made recommendations of two designs and maybe we could favor one over the other. I have no problem recommending -- I think what we're talking about is 5 with 19, correctly -correct? MR. URAM: MS. LANNIN: Right. I withdraw the motion. DR. KOTLOWSKI: to clarify. But 4 is the motion. No, no, no. I'm just trying I mean, we're talking about Obverse 5 being paired -MS. LANNIN: Right. DR. KOTLOWSKI: -- with Reverse 19? My Page 148 secondary choice here would be to pair Obverse 12 with Reverse 4 and then just sort of forwarding both recommendations. Do you want me to pull that together into a single motion or should we have more discussion? MR. URAM: Okay. We already have one on the floor so. DR. KOTLOWSKI: MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: MR. TUCKER: MR. URAM: Okay. Okay. I said I withdrew my motion. Okay. And the person that second? I withdraw. Withdraws also, okay. Thank you. So, Dean, go ahead with your thoughts here. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Okay. I would like to make a motion, Mr. Chairman, that we pair Obverse 5 with Reverse 19. And that as a sort of secondary runner up here for consideration Obverse 12 and Reverse 4. MR. URAM: Okay. So the motion is to do a coupling here and make a recommendation that the Committee reviewed and we feel that we have two significant designs of Obverse 5 with Reverse 19 and Obverse 12 with Reverse 4. Page 149 Do we have a second? that? MS. LANNIN: I'll second. MR. TUCKER: Can I make a clarification on So our motion would be to present both as equal -- as equal recommendations or... DR. KOTLOWSKI: I think what I originally said was, you know, I'm willing to go with democracy even though I'm on the losing end of it. But I do like whether we want to call -- let's just call it the ghost ship because we know what we're talking about here. I like that one too. So that's number one with 19 so that's going to be the preferred design. And then although my preference I wish the Navy people would be the one that got it, but that's going to be the secondary design. And we'll let the people upstairs decide which they like. MR. TUCKER: You and I are on the same page. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: go one step further? Excuse me, can we just Could I ask you to make, like, two motions where we have -- where we pair 19 obverse -- I mean, 5 -- Obverse 5 with Obverse -- Reverse 19? Can that be one motion? Page 150 DR. KOTLOWSKI: Mm-hmm. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Okay. carrying on with your second motion. And then So but I think that they're not really equal. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Okay. I didn't say that they -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: The second -- first and second I would agree to do that. DR. KOTLOWSKI: MR. URAM: Okay. Essentially by vote we just need the clarification on the reverse because number 4 and 19 have already tied for the reverse. DR. KOTLOWSKI: MR. URAM: Yeah, yeah. So you're using both of those anyhow so we're just basically by vote we're defaulting. And the only element that we're adding is that you're adding Obverse 12 to the mix which got fourteen votes. MS. SALMON: MS. URAM: MS. SALMON: Mr. Chair? Go ahead, Robin. If 12 and -- Obverse 12 and Reverse 4 are included, I would suggest that "United Page 151 States Navy" be removed from the design on number 12 because it also appears on number 4. DR. KOTLOWSKI: I would regard that as a friendly amendment. MR. URAM: Okay. So why don't we do the -- why don't we split them up because if we're going to make amendments to the design. DR. KOTLOWSKI: MR. URAM: Let's go with the -- Okay. Why don't we do the first motion of being -- Dr. Dean's motion will be Obverse 5 with 19 Reverse. And do we have a second? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. URAM: Jeanne. Second. All those in favor signify saying aye. (A chorus of ayes.) MR. URAM: Opposed? Motion carries. Now we have a second motion also recommending a secondary choice. DR. KOTLOWSKI: MR. URAM: Alternate with Obverse 12 -- DR. KOTLOWSKI: stricken from it. Or an alternate. With "United States Navy" Page 152 MR. URAM: -- with "United States Navy" deleted and with Reverse 4 which also received the same amount of selection points. Is there a second on that? MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: I'll second. Mary second. All those in favor signify saying aye. (A chorus of ayes.) MR. URAM: much. Opposed? Thank all of you. Okay. Thank you very I hope that you come away with a good design and that it meets the -- what you're thinking and gives you some choices as well. MR. BRODINE: MR. URAM: Yeah. So we appreciate you being with us today. MR. BRODINE: We appreciate the invitation to be able to sit in on this process. fascinating and interesting. It's been Good to hear different perspectives as well. Anyway, thank you for having us here today. Appreciate it. MR. URAM: Okay, Charles. Thank you. And, Page 153 Richard and Gale, thank you. Thank you for being with us. Okay. We're going to move along. MS. STAFFORD: MR. URAM: All right. Do you want me to go -- April, just go right into there. MS. STAFFORD: MR. URAM: Sure. There you go. MS. STAFFORD: Public Law 110-456 which authorized the America the Beautiful Quarters Program also authorized a change to the reverse of the quarter dollar at the conclusion of the series in 2021. Following the release of the 56th quarter which honors the Tuskegee Airmen National Historic Site the law states the reverse of the quarter dollar, quote, "Shall contain an image of General Washington crossing the Delaware River prior to the Battle of Trenton," end quote. This public law further requires that no head and shoulders portrait or bust of any person living or dead and no portrait of any -- of a living person may be included in the design. Page 154 All of the candidate designs depict a version of General George Washington leading his troops across and ice-choked Delaware River during a Nor'easter. The surprise attack was part of Washington's plan to surprise the enemy at Trenton. The ensuing Battle of Trenton and the subsequent Battle of Princeton became a turning point in the Revolutionary War and gave hope to many that the Continental Army could prevail. Artists were charged with finding a fresh perspective to depict the theme and encouraged not to recreate the 1999 New Jersey quarter which evokes the famous painting by Emanuel Leutze. The racial diversity present in Washington's troops is represented as is the Grand Union Flag which was the flag in use at the time of the crossing. All designs contain the inscriptions "quarter dollar," "United States of America," and "e pluribus unum." Some designs contain additional inscriptions as part of their design. So the Mint worked with curators at Mount Vernon and towards historical and technical accuracy. Page 155 And after review of the final portfolio they favor designs 01, 01A, 2, and 12 as they show not only Washington, but the greater scale of the crossing effort. They depict the shore and tree line providing good geographical context. Again, those were designs 1, 1A, 2, and 12 and I'll not them as we go through the portfolio. And because all of the designs are of the crossing of the Delaware there are no design description so we'll just move through starting with design 1 and 1A. Again, 1 and 1A were both designs favored by the curators at Mount Vernon. Design 2. Again, a design favored by Mount Vernon curators. Design 3, 3A, 4, 4A, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 9A, 10, 11, 11A, and 12, another design favored by the curators at Mount Vernon. Mr. Chair? MR. URAM: Thank you, April. Any technical questions before we begin our general discussion? Okay. If not let's begin with Mary. MS. LANNIN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Page 156 Interesting designs all. I can understand the difficulty of showing something that historically we've seen since we were in grade school. One of my criteria is when I first get this book I opened it up and I looked and I just sort of let my eye wander. And if it keeps going back to something then I get really, really serious about it and investigate that first before I investigate others. My eye automatically went to number 12 which is one of the preferred designs. I loved the sword. I loved how that dissected the quarter. open space. It -- all the I just think that this is an absolutely terrific design. My second favorite would have been number 2 which is also a preferred design. And that's all I have to say. MR. URAM: Okay, Mary. MR. GILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. with Mary for sure. Thank you. Sam? I concur Number 12 is my choice and it's the only coin -- the only relief here that describe -told the story which is "crossing the Delaware." And Page 157 I think that's important to put on there and I just like the whole design. I like the sword, I like everything about it, the capes, captures the weather. So I think it would be a very pretty coin. MR. URAM: Thank you. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I'm in agreement. Jeanne? Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think that although number 2 is a strong candidate, I'm very kind of confused about having Washington on both sides of this coin even though we have a portrait of Washington, now we have Washington crossing the Delaware on the reverse. So because of that I'm eliminating number 2 because he's facing the same direction. MR. MENNA: If I may interrupt for a second? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. MENNA: Yeah. This was also mentioned discussing the Navy medal about having the ship on one side and the smaller ship on the reverse. There is a medal art precedent for that in work at the United States Mint in the form of the First Spouse coins. I had the portrait on one side and then we had the same first spouse depicted in a narrative context on the Page 158 reverse. So I just wanted to put that out there. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Joe. Good point. However, I still rest my case. Thanks, I think it's -- and we're going to have it every time and we're going to have George Washington no matter what we're going to have it on both sides. But because of that I would like to have him doing something a little different. And in number 2 he faces left and on the quarter now he faces -- am I correct or am I -UNKNOWN MALE: You are. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: -- faces left. So when we turn the coin -- when we turn our coin around I just think it would have more interest if we had a different portrait or representation of George Washington. MR. MENNA: Oh, yeah. I wasn't trying to change your mind or anything. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you. You weren't. MR. MENNA: But what I'm saying -- or presume that you didn't -- aren't familiar with the series. Page 159 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. MENNA: Yeah. I know you're very familiar with it. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: am. Thank you very much. Yeah, no. I am. I So to continue my direction, I'm eliminating Obverse 01A and 02 which were preferred. And although the other designs are very interesting, I would also agree with Mary and Sam. The number 12 to me is very powerful. You know, I think that the weather is there, you know, the wind in his cloak and his jacket and everything is -depicts very cold weather on the Delaware so. And his sword is definitely telling him where to go. So I think that is my choice for this medal -- coin rather. Thank you. MR. URAM: Robert? Thank you. MR. HOGE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Some of these images seem to be in violation of the directive not to show a portrait or bust. was the bust go? I mean, how far down I mean, you've got half-length figures or -MR. WEINMAN: Excuse me. We've evaluated all Page 160 of these as to where the bust is. If you'll notice that all of them have showed the figures hands and arms. MR. HOGE: If hands are included it's not a bust? MR. WEINMAN: We made a determination. It's a bit of a subjective call, but we've modified designs as necessary and made determination that all of these meet the legislative requirement. MR. HOGE: On many of these, perhaps most if not all of them, the features are -- of Washington are very recognizable on these drawings. I don't know if they would be quite so recognizable on the actual quarter. But I would like a little bit of clarification if possible on the design of the boats. Do we have any idea of what the boats really looked like? I know there are many different kinds probably, but some of these have a little fore deck and on some it's big enough for people to walk on and some it isn't. And then some of these there are people right up to the very bow of the little boat. Page 161 Is there any evidence about surviving boats or documentation on their proportions and structure? MS. STAFFORD: So I'll ask Pam Borer, our Design Manager who worked with Mount Vernon. The question, Pam, is do we have information from our contacts at Mount Vernon about the actual type of boats that were used? MS. BORER: that were used. There were a variety of boats They used Duroboats that are depicted here are -- was the most common type. Historically they corrected some of these designs to have the boats with the poles on the front. That they -- and they would have been standing. I will say in some cases the artists asked questions and said, hey, you know, this was the middle of a storm as well. It seems that standing wouldn't have been the most -- you know, the safest option. And they did come back and say, yes, sitting on the bow seems reasonable in that case. So they are allowing a little bit of license, you know, with the design. MR. HOGE: Would the little -- Page 162 MS. BORER: The boats in general were very packed, you know, as they went across too. But there are some -- you know, we know some things and some things we just don't know for sure but they can infer. MR. HOGE: Would the little fore decks have been flush with the gunnels of the boat like that? That looks really precarious hitting ice. As someone who has actually fallen off a boat into the water -- a little boat into water that was cold, you know, I wonder about it. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: You've fallen off broncos, you've fallen off boats, Robert. MR. HOGE: life. A man of action. A strenuous I have some other questions of historical nature on some of these too. The firearms shown are not accurately drawn on some of these images and I wonder about that. probably correct. And I suppose the telescope is That looks like a couple of very different telescopes that are in the hands of Washington. Now the sword again looks good in number 12. Which one was it? One had a bad looking sword. Oh, Page 163 yes, number 5. MS. LANNIN: MR. HOGE: Five. Pardon? MS. LANNIN: MR. HOGE: King Arthur. King Arthur. Something. lanterns looked like? Do we know what the I mean, there are lanterns being carried in these too. MS. BORER: MR. HOGE: MS. BORER: That is an accurate. We have examples of -Yes. They sent -- the curators sent us examples so that one does follow. MR. HOGE: MS. BORER: MR. HOGE: historically. Excellent, thank you. Mm-hmm. I like a lot of these images Some of them look a little bit -- actually almost comical like number 8. That guy looks precarious right in front of the boat. And some -- and that's a very small boat for somebody. I guess Washington would be standing up and all so. I was always told that's a no, no to stand up in a tiny, little boat. And I have fallen over in a canoe into the water too so. Sorry. Page 164 I think number 12 is probably my favorite of these. Thank you. MR. URAM: Thank you, Robert. you a life preserver. We'll throw Dr. Kotlowski? DR. KOTLOWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just to echo what my colleagues are saying, my choice -- I wasn't happy with a lot of these designs. But I guess I -- without thinking about it I was doing the test Mary did and I was drawn to number 12. So I'm voting for number 12. I want to say a few things about some of the other images here. I don't mean to sound pretentious when I say this, but people at my age we kind of -- if you even remember the Brady Bunch how Peter Brady -one of his heroes was George Washington. And we would read those stories of George Washington. And number 1A brings up -- it's a little ambiguous at least for me. When he was a young man in 1754 he went out to Western Pennsylvania with a man named Christopher Gist. And so I wonder if this could be like crossing the Allegheny. crossed rivers, okay. This is a man who And so if I had to choose Page 165 between 1 and 1A, I would pick 1. I think number 2 is fine. it artistically so much. I don't know about I'm not going to -- you know, to go too much there. It's a little bit like a giant George Washington looking at his little troops and I just wonder about that. I wanted to say, though, a few things about historical accuracy in general in flags in particular because I think if we were to be -- to go with historical accuracy -- which you'd think the historian would want to do -- and we would go with the Grand Union Flag that has the Union Jack in it. I think Americans and people who come from overseas would kind of wonder what that was. Even if it was the flag at the time people don't understand that. And the really great coin I think we the New Jersey state quarter that uses the -- you know, the evocative and, you know, the iconography of the Leutze painting which was inaccurate. But when you're redoing the painting who cares, I mean, because the painting is part of history. So if you do a flag like you have in 4 or 4A Page 166 and then we all know in 9 it's wrong or 9A, maybe the best thing to do is to sort of leave something that's starting to fix -- instead of trying to fix historical inaccuracy, get around it or leave it out, make it ambiguous somehow in some shape of form. I should also say I looked this up and that flag behind Washington is very, very similar to the flag with the British East India Company, okay. And the other thing I had to look up I think that, Robert, you're right, the facial features it is Washington. I don't want to contest the point. But when he's got this -- you know, in 4 and 4A when he's got the telescope it's like he's an explorer. flag. And with that flag this isn't exactly the I thought could this be James Cook landing in Botany Bay or Hawaii or something along those lines? So I think -- and, you know, having Trenton there on 4 that was the actual battle, but that's not what people -- that's not what -- this is where I’m willing to lean more on memory and iconography rather than academic history. MR. URAM: So for me it's 12. Thank you. Didn't Gist also do Page 167 the Lewis and Clark journal, I think, or Patrick As-- what -- one of them. But anyhow, that was -- but anyhow, we can also let, you know, the expert from Brownsville over there -- Sam knows all about building cute boats and little buttons. commentary there, Dean. So thanks for your Thank you. Robin? MS. SALMON: I was drawn to 12. And from the artistic standpoint the sword bisecting the center, George Washington with the billowing cloak, all the elements are there that tell the story. And it also says "crossing the Delaware" so I think that's important. So that's my choice. MR. URAM: MS. LANNIN: Robin, thank you. Mary? I just wanted to congratulate the artist that did 07 because one of the innovations in this one is I like the fact that the boat is coming towards us and the "quarter dollar" is in the middle of the ice flow. And so I just wanted to remark on that and say that I enjoyed that. MR. URAM: MR. TUCKER: It is very nice. Dennis? Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think Page 168 that Obverse 2 is a strong design. questions for you about that one. Joe, I have some In the past some of our Committee discussions have centered on trying to avoid having legends and inscriptions set over -- set over the art. Is that a complication in this design? MR. MENNA: Well, as the artwork extends towards the edge of the coin it's going to become necessarily more shallow so the upper text should be fine and a lower text is incused. So and this did pass review with our expert coinability staff so I hope it works. MR. TUCKER: I know that you wouldn't present the designs that would not work, but I -MR. MENNA: MR. TUCKER: Oh, you know that, huh? -- I'm just thinking back to past conversations. MR. MENNA: MR. TUCKER: MR. MENNA: MR. TUCKER: Yes, sir. Okay. So this is doable? Yes, sir. I believe so. Thank you for that. I think number 2 is a strong design. I think -- I like it. I'm Page 169 not concerned about any sort of conflict with a dual bust portrait complication. Number 12 I also like because it has a helpful inscription. It tells you what you're seeing in case you're not aware. And I actually like design 5 because of all of these it's really the only one that's not trying too hard to be photo realistic. like the typographer. It's stylized. I I think that's different from a lot of the -- a lot of the fonts that we're seeing on other designs. I think number 5 deserves some consideration. It's just nicely artful. I think the -- I think my rent point will go mostly towards number 12, though. MR. URAM: Thank you, Dennis. As I look at these also I like number 12 the best out of them all. I think that what I like about it is that you have the other boat coming -- still coming towards you versus number 2 which you have them more coming into the shore than you do coming at you. And I think having Washington in the foreground you're going to have a little bit more of a Page 170 layering effect here as it would relate to the design and so forth versus a flat-looking postcard looking. So I think that when you get this in your hands if you look at the thumbnail on the bottom of the page it definitely -- you know, you're going to recognize this coin with that image there. So I'm going to throw my support there. Joe, before we vote do you have any other comments? MR. MENNA: permissible, yes. If that a go comments are I'd like to say that Pam did an outstanding job forging this portfolio with the talent that was involved. And I'm just appreciative of being able to participate because I think it's one of the most powerful overall portfolios that's been presented since I've had the job. MR. URAM: A real pleasure. It's really, really super. Pam, thank you very much from all of us. There's a lot here so. And, It is. And like what Mary said that was really -- with the iceberg and the quarter and everything, very clever. things in this portfolio. So we saw some really unique Page 171 Dennis? MR. TUCKER: This may have been discussed already and I apologize if it has been. Will this coin be done as a 5-ounce silver coin? MS. STAFFORD: It's not formally part of the America the Beautiful Program. MR. TUCKER: Okay. MS. STAFFORD: So at present there are no plans to do as such. MR. TUCKER: Okay. MR. WEINMAN: Yeah. Thank you. In fact, I'm not sure we're even authorized by the legislation right now to do a 5-ounce coin. MR. URAM: Okay. If you would score your sheets and turn them back to Greg. MR. WEINMAN: Thank you. Why don't we take a -- in this case just a ten-minute -- ten-minute recess? (Off the record.) MR. URAM: We'll reconvene here. And with that, I'll turn it over to Greg for our selections. MR. WEINMAN: Yes. Okay. With the voting completed there is a fairly clear indication in this Page 172 one. Going forward Obverse 1 received three votes, 1A received four, obverse -- or, sorry, design 2 received nine votes, 3 received one, 3A received one, 4 received three votes, 4A received two votes, 5 received five votes, 6 received zero, 7 received four votes, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 11A all received zero, and design number 12 received twenty-three votes so. MR. URAM: Okay. Thank you. Is there any -- would anyone like to make any motions regarding the selection? MR. WEINMAN: MR. URAM: Or recommendation. Recommendation? Seeing none, we'll move on. First of all, appreciate everyone's time and the Mint staff and all the work that was done for preparation for this meeting. And the CCAC's next public meeting is currently scheduled for Tuesday, January 21st of 2020. There is a possibility that we will have a telephonic meeting in between there if it's necessary, but our next meeting where we'll all come together will be January 21st at this time. Page 173 I hope that since we won't see anybody, then, I hope that everyone has a wonderful holiday season. You know, you already have trick-or-treat stuff out and all the other stuff's right out there right behind it all of a sudden. Everything kind of blends together. So with that I'd like to entertain a motion to adjourn. MS. LANNIN: MS. URAM: So moved. Robert and Mary. All those in favor signify saying aye. (A chorus of ayes.) MR. URAM: time. Opposed? Thank you all for your Be safe. MR. WEINMAN: Meeting adjourned. (Whereupon, at 3:02 p.m., the proceedings concluded.) Page 174 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, NATE RIVENESS, the officer before whom the foregoing proceedings were taken, do hereby certify that any witness(es) in the foregoing proceedings, prior to testifying, were duly sworn; that the proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting by a qualified transcriptionist; that said digital audio recording of said proceedings are a true and accurate record to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. NATE RIVENESS Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia Page 175 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER I, LISA BEAUCHAMP, do hereby certify that this transcript was prepared from the digital audio recording of the foregoing proceeding, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. LISA BEAUCHAMP