Full text of Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meetings, Recommendations, and Minutes : Meeting, October 14, 2014 : Transcript

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C I T I Z E N S COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE

COMMITTEE MEETING

Tuesday,
October 14 , 2014

United States Mint
8 01 9 t h Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C.

Reported by:

C hristine Allen,
C apital Reporting Company

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A P P E A R A N C E S
C O M M I T T E E M E M B E RS PRESENT:
M A R K S , G a r y , C h airman
JANSEN, Erik
WASTWEET, Heidi
MORAN, Mike
HOGE, Robert
URAM, Thomas J.
L A N N I N , M a r y ( v ia telephone)
V I O L A , H e r m a n , Dr.

U.S. MINT STAFF:
BIRDSONG, Betty
EVERHART, Don
NORTON, Bill
SULLIVAN, Megan
STAFFORD, April
VASQUEZ, Roger
WEINMAN, Gary

LIAISONS:
ANDERSON, Brian
EDSEL, Robert
FOX, Christy
LOVELL, Cindy
WAGNER, Greg

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A G E N D A
PAGE

Welcome

4

D i s c u s s i o n o f L etter and Minutes from
S e p t e m b e r 2 3 a n d 24, 2014

5

R e v i e w a n d D i s c uss Candidate Designs for the
D o o l i t t l e T o k y o Raiders Congressional Gold
Medal
16
R e v i e w a n d D i s c uss Candidate Designs for the
A m e r i c a n F i g h t e r Aces Congressional Gold
Medal
71
D i s c u s s D e s i g n Concept for the Mark Twain
C o m m e m o r a t i v e C oin Program

131

D i s c u s s D e s i g n Concept for the Monuments Men
C o n g r e s s i o n a l G old Medal
151
Adjourn

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P R O C E E D I N G S
(9:30 a.m.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Good morning, calling

t h i s O c t o b e r 1 4 , 2014, meeting of the
C i t i z e n ’ s C o i n a ge Advisory Committee to order.
B e f o r e w e g e t i nto our agenda, I want to
w e l c o m e t h e f o l ks who are joining us today for
our meeting.
W e h a v e in the room today as program
l i a i s o n s f o r t h e portfolios that we will be
reviewing today:

Mr. Brian Anderson, who is a

S e r g e a n t -a t - A r m s with the Doolittle Tokyo
R a i d e r s ; D r . G r eg Wagner, who is a board
m e m b e r o f t h e A merican Fighter Aces
A s s o c i a t i o n ; a n d later on we’ll have Mr. Sam
R o d r i g u e z , a l i aison to the 65th Infantry
R e g i m e n t B o r i n q ueneers Congressional Gold
M e d a l ; a n d w e h ave Bill McAllister here, with
Coin World.
A n d b e f ore I go on, I just want to ask
i f w e h a v e j o u r nalists on the phone today?
y o u a r e o u t t h e re, could you identify

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y o u r s e l f , p l e a s e?
M S . B R A DLEY:

Hello, Debbie Bradley

f r o m N u m i s m a t i c News.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M R . G U N THER:

Good morning.

Mike Gunther from Coin

News.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Okay, well, good

m o r n i n g t o b o t h of you.
( N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

So with that I think

w e ’ r e g o i n g t o get into our agenda.

First

i t e m o n t h e a g e nda is our discussion and
a p p r o v a l o f t h e letter and minutes from our
S e p t e m b e r 2 3 r d and 24th meetings.

You all

r e c e i v e d t h e m i nutes and the letters in
a d v a n c e o f t h e meeting, are there any comments
o n t h o s e d o c u m e nts?
H e a r i n g none, I would entertain a
m o t i o n t o a p p r o ve both?
M R . J A N SEN:

So moved.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M R . H O G E:

Is there a second?

Second.

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C H A I R M A N MARKS:

It’s been moved and

s e c o n d e d t o a p p rove the minutes and the
l e t t e r s a s s o c i a ted with the September 23rd and
2 4 t h , 2 0 1 4 , m e e ting.

All those in favor,

p l e a s e s a y “ a y e ?”
(Ayes.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Opposed?

(N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Motion carries

u n a n i m o u s l y , t h ank you.
B e f o r e we get into our program reviews
I j u s t w a n t e d t o offer a word about our
p r o c e s s , f o r t h ose who might not be familiar
w i t h i t , p a r t i c ularly to our liaisons in the
room.

I d i d m e ntion some of this prior, but

o n t h e r e c o r d , I'd like to just go over the
process.
B a s i c a l ly, what you’ll hear today is a
f a i r l y t h o r o u g h review of the designs that
w e ’ v e b e e n p r o v ided in both of the visual
p o r t f o l i o s t h a t are on the agenda today.
W e ’ l l s t a r t o f f with a program report from

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A p r i l S t a f f o r d , with the United States Mint.
S h e ’ l l g i v e u s the overview of the programs
a n d p r o v i d e t o us an initial introduction to
e a c h o f t h e d e s igns.
A t t h a t point, April will introduce
t h e a p p r o p r i a t e program liaison, that
i n d i v i d u a l w i l l have an opportunity to
i n t r o d u c e t h e m s elves, talk a little bit about
t h e i r o r g a n i z a t ion and if you have some
t h o u g h t s o r r e c ommendations about the designs
t h e m s e l v e s , w e would certainly be very
i n t e r e s t e d i n h earing what those might be.
O n c e t h ose remarks are concluded, then
t h e m e e t i n g w i l l shift into the deliberations
o f t h e C o m m i t t e e.

Under that heading, we will

i n i t i a l l y s e e k any technical questions, so if
m e m b e r s h a v e q u estions about the nature of the
d e s i g n s o r h o w something might be produced, or
w h a t h a v e y o u - - rather than any commentary on
t h e d e s i g n s , a n ything outside of a commentary,
w e ’ l l h a n d l e t h ose questions up front so we
c a n g e t t h o s e o ut of the way.

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A t t h a t point we’ll shift into the
c o m m e n t s o f e a c h member.

Each member will

h a v e a c h a n c e t o offer their thoughts and
i n s i g h t s a b o u t the designs in the portfolio.
O n c e w e ’ v e c o n c luded with that I will
r e c o g n i z e t h e l iaisons for some final remarks.
S o , i n t h e c o u r se of the deliberations, if the
l i a i s o n s h e a r a nything that they think they
m i g h t w a n t t o f ollow up on, I’d ask you to
m a k e n o t e s t o y ourself, save that for the
s e c o n d r e c o g n i t ion that I’ll give to you
t o w a r d s t h e e n d of our review.
O n c e y o u’ve concluded with that,
m e m b e r s w i l l d e al with any final issues, react
t o a n y t h i n g t h a t you may have offered on your
s e c o n d g o -a r o u n d and then we’ll go through our
b a l l o t i n g p r o c e ss.
S o t h a t ’s the basic overview.
a l s o h e a r s o m e passionate discussion.

You’ll
We here

o n t h e C o m m i t t e e are very passionate, we tend
t o s p e a k o u r m i nd in a very frank way, so
d o n ’ t b e s t a r t l ed by any of that.

Please

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c o u n t i t u p f o r a positive in the passion that
w e b r i n g t o t h i s.
T h e r e w ill be friendly disagreement, I
think.

I n e v i t a bly there is on the Committee,

b u t d o n ’ t m i s i n terpret that as something
t h a t ’ s g o n e w r o ng with our deliberations.

We

a c t u a l l y l i k e t o have the give and take and
c h a l l e n g e e a c h other.

So with that, I’d like

t o g e t g o i n g o n our first item for review
t o d a y a n d t h a t is the review and discussion of
o u r c a n d i d a t e d esigns for the Doolittle Tokyo
R a i d e r s C o n g r e s sional Gold Medal.
A t t h i s time I’d like to recognize
A p r i l S t a f f o r d for her report, April?
M S . S T A FFORD:

Thank you.

Public Law

1 1 3 -1 0 6 a u t h o r i zes a collective Congressional
g o l d m e d a l t o t he World War II members of the
D o o l i t t l e T o k y o Raiders for outstanding
h e r o i s m , v a l o r , skill, and service to the
U n i t e d S t a t e s i n conducting the bombings of
Tokyo.
A s d e s c ribed in the findings of the

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l e g i s l a t i o n , t h e raid of April 18, 1942, was
t h e f i r s t s t r i k e by the United States against
J a p a n d u r i n g W o rld War II, and the first joint
m i s s i o n b y m e m b ers of the United States Army
A i r C o r p s a n d N avy.

The 80 men who

v o l u n t e e r e d f o r this mission came from the
1 7 t h B o m b a r d m e n t Group.

Led by Lieutenant

C o l o n e l J a m e s D oolittle, they became known as
t h e D o o l i t t l e T okyo Raiders.
T h e R a i ders launched from the USS
H o r n e t a n d f l e w in 16 B- 25 aircrafts towards
Japan.

T h e y w e re 170 miles further away than

t h e i r p l a n n e d l aunch, but accepted the risk
t h a t t h e i r a i r c raft may not have enough fuel
t o r e a c h t h e d e signated airfields in China.
B e c a u s e o f t h a t deliberate choice, none of the
1 6 a i r p l a n e s r e ached the prearranged Chinese
airfields.

O f the 80 Doolittle Tokyo Raiders

w h o l a u n c h e d o n the raid, 8 were captured, 2
d i e d i n a c r a s h , and 70 returned to the United
States.
O f t h e eight captured, three were

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e x e c u t e d a n d o n e died of disease.

We’re

f o r t u n a t e t o h a ve with us today Mr. Brian
A n d e r s o n , S e r g e ant- at-Arms for the Doolittle
T o k y o R a i d e r s A ssociation.

After we go

t h r o u g h a l l o f the obverse and reverse
d e s i g n s , M r . A n derson, I’ll ask you if you
c o u l d m a k e a f e w comments to the Committee.
M R . A N D ERSON:

I’d be happy to.

M S . S T A FFORD:

We have 15 obverse

d e s i g n s f o r c o n sideration today.

Obverses 1,

1 A , 2 , 3 , 4 , a n d 5 depict the North American
B - 2 5 B M i t c h e l l launching off the USS Hornet on
April 18, 1942.

The 16 stars represent the 16

f l i g h t c r e w s t h at made up the Doolittle
Raiders.

I n s c r iptions are:

Doolittle Tokyo

R a i d e r s , F i r s t Strike Back, and April 18,
1942.
S o h e r e we have Obverse 1, 1A, 2, 3-a n d I ’ l l s t r e s s that this is our liaison’s
p r e f e r r e d o b v e r se design--Obverse 4 and 5.
O b v e r s e 6 d e p i c ts a seahorse, eagle, and 16
stars.

T h e s e a horse represents the USS Hornet

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a n d i s s y m b o l i c of knowledge, strength, and
b e i n g t h e r u l e r of the sea.

The eagle

r e p r e s e n t s t h e B-25 Mitchell and is a symbol
f o r r u l e r o f t h e sky.

Lightning bolts are

i n c l u d e d t o s y m bolize the 17th Bombardment
G r o u p ’ s a b i l i t y to strike fast and with
precision.

T h e 16 stars represent the 16

f l i g h t c r e w s t h at took part in this combat
mission.

I n s c r iptions include:

Doolittle

T o k y o R a i d e r s a nd First Strike Back.
O b v e r s e 7 portrays a B- 25B Mitchell
l a u n c h i n g f r o m the deck of the USS Hornet as a
s i g n a l o f f i c e r gives the all clear for
takeoff.

A p a r tial view of the USS Hornet is

s e e n i n t h e b a c kground.

Inscriptions are:

D o o l i t t l e T o k y o Raiders, First Strike Back,
a n d A p r i l 1 8 , 1 942.
O b v e r s e 8 depicts three B-25B
M i t c h e l l s i n f o rmation after takeoff from the
d e c k o f t h e U S S Hornet.

A pilot looks to the

w e s t t o w a r d s t h e target in anticipation of
w h a t h e w i l l e n counter.

One B- 25B Mitchell is

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s h o w n c l o s e u p as it begins its journey.
I n s c r i p t i o n s a r e:

Doolittle Tokyo Raiders and

F i r s t S t r i k e B a ck.
O b v e r s e s 9 and 10 depict a B- 25B
M i t c h e l l j u s t a s it launches from the flight
d e c k o f t h e U S S Hornet.

Inscriptions are:

D o o l i t t l e T o k y o Raiders along the upper rim,
w i t h 1 6 s t a r s b elow, and First Strike Back.
H e r e w e h a v e O b verse 9 and 10.
O b v e r s e s 11 and 12--design 11 depicts
a B -2 5 B M i t c h e l l flying along the coast over
Y o k o s u k a , J a p a n , while design 12 depicts the
a i r c r a f t a s i t takes off the deck of the USS
Hornet.

I n s c r i ptions are:

Doolittle Tokyo

R a i d e r s , F i r s t Strike Back, and April 18,
1942.

T h i s i s Obverse 11 and 12.
O b v e r s e s 13 and 14 depict the B- 25B

M i t c h e l l r e c e n t ly launched from the platform
o f t h e U S S H o r n et.

Design 14 includes a

g e n e r i c r a i d e r to represent the airmen
i n c l u d e d i n t h i s mission.

Both designs

f e a t u r e 1 6 s t a r s to represent the flight crews

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w h o p a r t i c i p a t e d in this mission.
I n s c r i p t i o n s a r e:
F i r s t S t r i k e B a ck.

Doolittle Tokyo Raiders and
This is Obverse 13 and 14.

T h a t c o ncludes the obverse designs.
W e h a v e n i n e r e verse designs for
consideration.

Reverse 1 depicts the arrival

o f a i r c r a f t s a t their target.

Two of the 16

B - 2 5 B M i t c h e l l s release their bombs, 16 stars
a r e u s e d t o r e p resent the flight crew
p a r t i c i p a t i n g i n this mission.
include:

Inscriptions

T h e D oolittle Raider’s motto,

“ T o u j o u r s a u D a nger,” which translates into
“ A l w a y s i n t o D a nger,” as well as 17th
B o m b a r d m e n t G r o up and Act of Congress 2014.
R e v e r s e 2 depicts a B- 25B Mitchell.
I n s c r i p t i o n s a r e 17th Bombardment Group, Act
o f C o n g r e s s 2 0 1 4, and First Joint Mission by
M e m b e r s o f t h e Unites States Army Air Corps
and Navy.
R e v e r s e s 3, 4, 5, and 6 depict B- 25B
M i t c h e l l a i r c r a fts flying or launching from
t h e U S S H o r n e t , as well as the four patches

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r e p r e s e n t i n g t h e four squadrons, including the
3 4 t h , t h e 3 7 t h , the 89th, and the 95th, which
m a k e u p t h e 1 7 t h Bombardment Group.

Design 5

i n c l u d e s a w r e a th of laurel and design 6
i n c l u d e s 1 6 s t a rs.

Inscriptions are:

17th

B o m b a r d m e n t G r o up, “Toujours au Danger,” and
A c t o f C o n g r e s s 2014.

Here we have Reverse 3,

R e v e r s e 4 - - t h i s is our liaison’s preferred
r e v e r s e , R e v e r s e 5, and 6.
R e v e r s e 7 depicts a thunderbird, lion,
w i n g e d h e l m e t , and mule, which represent the
f o u r s q u a d r o n s within the 17th Bombardment
Group.

I n s c r i p tions include:

“Toujours au

D a n g e r ” a n d A c t of Congress 2014.
R e v e r s e 8 portrays a bird’s- eye view
o f t h e 1 7 t h B o m bardment Group as it nears the
target.

A g r a p hic representation of the

i s l a n d H o n s h u i s depicted below.

Inscribed

a l o n g t h e b o r d e r are the four squadrons that
m a k e u p t h e 1 7 t h Bombardment Group.
A d d i t i o n a l i n s c riptions are:

17th Bombardment

G r o u p a n d A c t o f Congress 2014.

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R e v e r s e 9 depicts the Army Air Corps
s t a r w h i c h a p p e ars on the B- 25s and the tail
n u m b e r s o f t h e 16 aircrafts arranged in the
o r d e r t h e y l e f t the deck of the USS Hornet.
I n s c r i p t i o n s a r e:

“Toujours au Danger” and

April 18, 1942.
T h a t c o ncludes the obverse and reverse
designs.

N o w I ’d like to ask Mr. Anderson if

y o u c o u l d p l e a s e address the Committee.
M R . A N D ERSON:
hear me okay?

Okay.

Can you guys all

First off, I want to thank you

f o r t h e o p p o r t u nity-C H A I R M A N MARKS:

I want to make sure

t h a t t h e t r a n s c riber is picking you up.
R E P O R T E R:

I’ve got it.

He’s perfect

r i g h t w h e r e h e was.
M S . S T A FFORD:

You’re good here.

M R . A N D ERSON:

I’ve never been accused

of being soft.

First off, I’d like to thank

y o u a l l f o r t h e opportunity to be here today.
T h e U . S . M i n t , the Citizen’s Coinage
C o m m i t t e e , t h i s is a big honor for me.

It’s

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s o m e t h i n g t h a t was started a long time ago and
I ’ v e a d m i r e d y o ur work.

I’ve got a couple of

t h e g o l d m e d a l s from some previous groups that
y o u ’ v e a l l d o n e and I can’t think of a better
w a y t o h o n o r t h ese heroes that we call The
D o o l i t t l e T o k y o Raiders.
T h e w o r k here is wonderful.

I want to

t h a n k t h e a r t i s ts, too, and April and Betty
h a v e b e e n w o n d e rful to work with so I want to
g i v e t h e m a n o d , also.

Betty has kept me in

t h e l o o p a n d o n the straight and narrow, so
thank you.
I n d o i n g this I felt honored that I
w a s t h e l i a i s o n to work with you all.

I only

h a v e f o u r R a i d e rs left, and of the four, three
o f t h e m a r e k i n d of involved in this process.
O n e o f t h e m , D i ck Cole--Colonel Cole--knows
w h a t t h e d e s i g n s we were looking at.
W e h a v e Dick Cole, who was Doolittle’s
c o - p i l o t o n A i r craft Number 1.
Thatcher.

We have Dave

I f y ou’ve seen the movie 30 Seconds

O v e r T o k y o , D a v e was the flight engineer.

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H e ’ s s t i l l w i t h us; he received the Silver
S t a r f o r h i s a c tion that day.
S a i l o r , w h o w a s on Crew 15.

I have Ed
And what a lot of

f o l k s d o n ’ t k n o w--a little history here--is
t h e y h a d t o t a k e one of his engines off the
a i r c r a f t , g o d o wn in the hangar deck and work
o n i t , a n d t h i s was an aircraft carrier that
h a d n e v e r h a d t hese airplanes on it before,
t h e y d i d n o t h a ve the equipment or the tools
t o p u l l t h i s e n gine off, especially on a
p i t c h i n g s e a , b ut they did it.
T h e y m a de the correction to the
e n g i n e , p u t i t back on, obviously no flight
t e s t , t h e y d i d a couple run- ups on it, but the
a i r c r a f t t o o k o ff, so we had the 16 aircraft
that morning.
A n d t h e n Bobby Hite is still with us.
B o b b y w a s o n C r ew 16, he was one of the eight
P O W s a n d B o b b y is still with us, but he’s
s u f f e r i n g f r o m Alzheimer’s and dementia, but
h e ’ s s t i l l h e r e with us.

Anyhow, those are

t h e f o u r R a i d e r s that I have.

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D i c k C o le just turned 99, people, and
h e i s t h e E v e r e ady Bunny.

He’s still out

t h e r e d o i n g a p p earances and honoring the
R a i d e r s f o r t h e ir missions.

So, again, it’s

h o n o r a n d a p r i vilege and I thank you all.
A s A p r i l said, my preference--the
G r o u p ’ s p r e f e r e nce--is, on the front side,
number 3.

T h e artist here, he hit the nail on

t h e h e a d - - o r s h e hit the nail on the head.

If

y o u a r e f a m i l i a r with the raid, it was a
c h o p p y m o r n i n g when they took off.

You can

s e e t h e w a v e s b reaking on the bough of the
c a r r i e r a n d o n e of the carrier crew members
w h o h a s p a s s e d away since, he says, “My
n i c k n a m e i s B e a r.”

He says, “Bear, remember,

w e g o t t h e m t h e re.”
S o w e w anted to have a decent
d e p i c t i o n o f t h e aircraft carrier, the USS
H o r n e t C V -8 , b e cause they were the ones that
g o t t h e g u y s t o that point and the crew
m e m b e r s o n t h e Hornet, they were not very
h a p p y w h e n t h e y found themselves taxiing--

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b e i n g t r a n s p o r t for some bombers--until they
g o t o u t t o s e a and found out what the mission
w a s a n d t h e n t h ey were quite happy to have
b e e n t h e t a x i t o help them out.

But this was

a b r a n d n e w c a r rier and they hadn’t been to
w a r y e t , t h e y w ere anxious to get into the
f i g h t a n d t h i s was their first official foray
into it.
O n e o f the sailors, when the guys were
t o l d m a n y o u r a ircraft; one of the Raiders
t h r e w h i m h i s s ervice cap and says, here, I
d o n ’ t n e e d t h i s anymore.

And when the Hornet

s u n k i n O c t o b e r of ’42, he told us, he said,
y o u k n o w , I l o s t $600 in my key locker that
d a y , b u t I l o s t that Raider cap.

He says, I

w i s h I s t i l l h a d that Raider cap.
S o t h e Hornet guys were very much
i n v o l v e d i n t h i s and we wanted to honor them
b y h a v i n g a d e c ent drawing of the aircraft
there.
F i r s t S trike, this was the first
s t r i k e o n t h e J apanese homeland and, again,

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g o i n g b a c k t o h istory--if you know the Battle
o f M i d w a y - - w e w on that battle a month and a
half later.

B e cause of this raid, the

J a p a n e s e m i l i t a ry decided to keep assets back
a n d n o t s e n d t h em to Midway, so we--instead of
h a v i n g s i x c a r r iers to deal with, we only had
four.
S o t h i s mission changed the course of
h i s t o r y i n t h e Pacific, so I think the artist
c o v e r e d i t b e a u tifully here.

April 18th is

t h a t d a t e , a n d you all have done medals for
t h e T u s k e g e e A i rmen and the Wasp and the 442
N i s e i , a n d t h o s e were groups that did multiple
t h i n g s i n t h e i r career.
W h e n y o u talk about the Doolittle
T o k y o R a i d e r s , you’re talking about this one
s i n g l e e v e n t t h at was dramatic.

It boosted

t h e m o r a l e o f u s after Pearl Harbor, it got us
s o m e t r a c t i o n g oing, it made the Japanese
c h a n g e t h e i r t h inking and, like I say, this
a c t i o n d i d c h a n ge the course of the war and
t h a t ’ s w h a t y o u think of.

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I f y o u look at history books, movies,
n e w s r e e l s , y o u see the aircraft taking off
f r o m t h e H o r n e t on that morning.

Again, on

t h e r e v e r s e s i d e, I wanted to incorporate
N u m b e r 4 ; I w a n ted to incorporate the squadron
patches.

Y o u a ll did that on the 442 Nisei,

y o u h a d t h e i r u nit patches on the backside.

I

t h o u g h t i t w o u l d be good to--it’s the 17th
B o m b a r d m e n t G r o up and this depicts the
s q u a d r o n p a t c h e s.

“Always in Danger” is the

Latin there.
I k n o w it’s got airplanes on both
s i d e s , l a d i e s a nd gentlemen, but, again, when
y o u t h i n k o f t h e Doolittle Tokyo Raider
m i s s i o n , y o u t h ink about the B- 25s taking off
f r o m a n a i r c r a f t carrier which had never been
d o n e u n d e r c o m b at conditions.

This was the

l o n g e s t B -2 5 m i ssion flown during the war and,
a g a i n , a s A p r i l said, they had to leave early.
T h e y d i d n ’ t h a v e the gas to get to where they
had to go.

H a d it not been for the Hand of

P r o v i d e n c e , t h e y had a storm over the South

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C h i n a S e a a n d i nstead of having a headwind
t h a t n i g h t , t h e y had a tailwind, and that’s
w h a t g o t t h e m o ver the mountains in China.
A l l t h e Raiders--we lost three the
n i g h t o f t h e r a id, 22 Raiders stayed in
t h e a t e r , t h e r e st of them came back to the
S t a t e s , a n d d u r ing the course of the war, 19
o t h e r R a i d e r s l ost their lives during the war.
S o , a g a i n , t h i s is a pretty historic event and
t h a t ’ s w h y w e w ere looking at this.
A g a i n , I’m not trying to downplay any
o t h e r a r t w o r k h ere, but I think the people,
a c t u a l l y , t h e y hit the nail on the head here.
S o t h a t ’ s o u r - - what we want to do and I’m
h o n o r e d a n d p r i vileged to be here with you all
a n d I ’ m h o n o r e d to represent the Raiders in
this endeavor.
T h e y ’ r e going to be gone shortly,
w e ’ r e g o i n g t o be gone shortly, and the
D o o l i t t l e T o k y o Raiders will forever have this
g o l d m e d a l t h a t you all have come to pass here
t o d o i t a n d t h at will be here for anybody who

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w a n t s t o s t u d y gold medals, who the groups
w e r e , a n d I ’ m h oping that this will help get
k i d s i n t e r e s t e d in our history because, again,
I e a t , s l e e p , a nd drink this.

I’ve been doing

t h i s W o r l d W a r II stuff for the last 30, 35
y e a r s a n d m y b u ddy Greg here--I belong to the
A c e s , s o t h i s a ll ties in.
T h i s i s all good stuff, but people
forget history.

And when the wife and I

v i s i t e d u p o n C apitol Hill to all the
d i f f e r e n t o f f i c es that we went to, you got
t h a t d e e r i n t h e headlight look.
these people?

Who are

What did they do?

S o I w a nt to have a gold medal that
m a k e s t h a t m i s s ion, as to what they did in the
a i r c r a f t t h e y f lew, and I’m hoping--I think
y o u a l l k n o w t h e medal will reside in Dayton,
O h i o , a t t h e A i r Force Museum, which is where
I w a n t e d t o h a v e it go.
w o n d e r f u l d i s p l ay there.

They’ve got a
The museum’s been

f r i e n d s t o u s - - and I don’t know if any of you
g u y s h a v e e v e r been to a Raider reunion, but

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i n 2 0 1 0 a n d 2 0 1 2 we had 20 B- 25s at the
r e u n i o n t h e r e i n Dayton, Ohio.
A n d I ’ m hoping that when you put that
m e d a l i n m y h a n d, people, that I can deliver
i t t o D a y t o n a b oard a B- 25.
S o , a g a in, that’s my spiel, and I do
a p p r e c i a t e y o u r time, folks.
M S . S T A FFORD:
very much.

Thank you

M r . Chairman?

C H A I R M A N MARKS:
Anderson.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr.

O k a y , at this point before we get

i n t o o u r t e c h n i cal questions, I’d like to go
t h r o u g h o u r p r o cess of culling--that’s C- U-LL- I - N -G , n o t c a lling.

It’s a process our

C o m m i t t e e u s e s to reserve the time that we
h a v e h e r e t o d a y to focus on those designs that
w e f e e l a r e m o s t appropriate for this program.
S o I ’ m g o i n g t o ask that we put each of these
d e s i g n s u p o n t he screen, I’ll have them here
a t m y p l a c e a t the table, and as we go through
e a c h o n e I ’ l l a sk for an indication from the
C o m m i t t e e t h a t they’d like to either review or

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not.
M R . U R A M:

Point of information, here.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M R . U R A M:

Yes, Tom?

Has the CFA seen these

designs yet?
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

No, CFA has not seen

these designs.
M R . U R A M:

Okay.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

So, with that--and by

t h e w a y , j u s t f or those who are listening in
o r h e r e i n t h e room, an indication by a single
m e m b e r t h a t t h e y’d like to review a design is
e n o u g h t o k e e p it in the hunt, as it were.
w i t h t h a t w e ’ l l go to the obverses.

So

First,

O b v e r s e N u m b e r 1--that’s the reverse there,
c a n w e b r i n g u p the obverses?
M R . U R A M:

Yes.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:
much.

Okay, thank you very

S o , m e m b ers of the Committee, Design

N u m b e r 1 , O b v e r se 1?
M R . U R A M:

Is there interest?

Yes.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Okay.

Obverse 1A?

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M R . U R A M:

Yes.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Obverse 2?

(Yeses.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Obverse 3?

(Y e s e s . )
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Is there interest in

Number 4?
(Yeses.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Is there interest in

Number 5?
( N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
aside, Number 6?

Setting Number 5

I’ll say yes.

Number 7,

interest in 7?
( N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Setting 7 aside,

Number 8?
( N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
aside, as well.

Setting that one

Number 9?

U N I D E N T IFIED SPEAKER:

Yes.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Number 10?

Yes?

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( N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Setting 10 aside.

Number 11?
( N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Setting that aside.

Number 12?
( N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Passing on 12.

Number 13?
( N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Passing on 13.

Number 14?
U N I D E N T IFIED SPEAKER:

Yes.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Okay, so to

Yes.

r e v i e w w h a t w e have for our focus today, and
I ’ l l a s k t h e m e mbers to focus their comments
on these.

I f y ou have technical questions,

t h e y s h o u l d g o with these and not ones that
w e ’ v e s e t a s i d e , for the interest of our time
today.
S o , w e have still to consider today:
1 , 1 A , 2 , 3 , 4 , 6, 9, and 14, for the obverse

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designs.

S o , n ow shifting to the reverse

designs.

I s t h ere interest in Design Number

1?
( N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
aside.

Setting Number 1

N u m b e r 2?
( N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

aside, as well.

Setting that one

Number 3?

U N I D E N T IFIED SPEAKER:
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Yes.

Yes, on 3.

Number 4?

( Y e s e s .)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Number 5?

(N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
aside.

Setting Number 5

N u m b e r 6?
U N I D E N T IFIED SPEAKER:

Yes.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Number 7?

Yes?

(N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
aside.

Setting that one

N u m b e r 8?
(Y e s e s .)

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C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Number 9?

( N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
aside.

Setting Number 9

S o , f o r the record, on the reverses we

a r e g o i n g t o f u rther consider Number 3, 4, 6,
and 8.

A n d I ’ l l ask the members again to

f o c u s y o u r c o m m ents for the remainder of our
d e l i b e r a t i o n s o n those designs.
S o , w i t h that I’ll ask the members if
t h e y h a v e a n y t echnical questions about these
d e s i g n s o r g e n e ral program questions, if you
w o u l d p l e a s e a s k those now?
questions?

Are there any

E r i k?

M R . J A N SEN:

We get into this every

t i m e , b u t b e c a u se this is a medal and I think
t h e o p t i o n s f o r various shading and treatments
o n t h e m e d a l s a re maybe limited, or not.
W e ’ v e g o t a l o t of shading on these designs
a n d I w o u l d l o v e to have the sculptors of the
M i n t c o m m e n t o n how they would embrace the
s h a d i n g , i n t e r ms of texturing or whatever on
s o m a n y o f t h e s e designs.

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M R . E V E RHART:

Do you want me to

answer that?
M R . J A N SEN:

Please.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M R . E V E RHART:

Yes, please.
Well, I think for the

m o s t p a r t t h e s hading is just to indicate
f o r m , w h e r e t h e re’s a background, like in
N u m b e r 4 o b v e r s e where the Hornet is in
s i l h o u e t t e , t h e n that would be a textured
b a c k g r o u n d , b u t just to describe form I would
n o t t e x t u r e i t because it will be described
e n o u g h i n t h e t hree dimensional shape.
M R . J A N SEN:

So in general we’re not

d e a l i n g w i t h - - o ur technical representative,
S t e v e A n t o n u c c i ’s not here today, but in
g e n e r a l w e ’ r e n ot going to be doing a lot of
texturing here?
M R . E V E RHART:

Well, it’s going to

d e p e n d o n w h i c h one you pick, I’m sure, but I
w o u l d j u s t u t i l ize the shading to define the
f o r m o n t h e p l a nes themselves.

And if there’s

a n y b a c k g r o u n d , like on Number 9 that has--it

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l o o k s l i k e t h e r e’s a textured field-M R . J A N SEN:

Yep.

M R . E V E RHART:

--then we would apply

it there.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M R . J A N SEN:

Nope, thank you.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:
questions?

Anything else, Erik?

Are there other

N o other questions, okay, with

t h a t t h e n w e ’ l l shift into our comment phase.
I ’ m g o i n g t o s t art off on this one.
F i r s t o f all, I want to say once again
I ’ m a m a z e d t o f ind myself here, playing this
r o l e w h e r e e a c h of us, we get to now be, in a
v e r y s m a l l w a y , a part of the history of the
D o o l i t t l e T o k y o Raiders.

We get to play a

p a r t i n t h e A m e rican Aces and to me that’s
j u s t a m a z i n g a n d it’s an honor for me and I
j u s t w a n t t o h a ve that on the record that I
p e r s o n a l l y , a n d my committee, can participate
i n s o m e t h i n g t h at I think is so important and
b r i n g s h o n o r t o some great Americans who I
t h i n k a r e v e r y much worthy of the honor of a

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C o n g r e s s i o n a l G old Medal.
S o , w i t h that I also want to
c o m p l i m e n t o u r artist for another great
portfolio.

I t hink there’s some fabulous work

h e r e f o r u s t o look at today.
I ’ m e x c ited about that and in this
c o l l e c t i o n t h a t we’ve been given there’s a
m i x t u r e o f b o t h images that tend towards
r e a l i s t i c p o r t r ayals of the subject matter.
A n d t h e n t h e r e are some others that are a
l i t t l e m o r e a b s tract and I want to address
t h a t b e c a u s e I think what often is the case
w h e n w e l o o k a t Congressional Gold Medals and
w e h a v e o r g a n i z ations like those that the
g e n t l e m e n i n t h e room represent today, there
i s a t e n d e n c y f or those involved to naturally
g r a v i t a t e t o w a r ds those images that tend more
t o w a r d s t h e r e a lism.
A n d I t hink that there needs to be a
b a l a n c e b e t w e e n the realism--because you want
e n o u g h i n f o r m a t ion that people really
u n d e r s t a n d w h a t is being honored here, but you

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a l s o w a n t t o p a y attention to the art and
t h a t ’ s v e r y i m p ortant.

I think sometimes we

l o s e t r a c k o f t he art and, in fact, this
C o m m i t t e e h a s s pent years now asking the Mint
a n d i t s a r t i s t s to give us more art and
p e r h a p s o f f e r i n gs that are less literal, and
s o m e t i m e s m o r e abstract.

And art in a way

t h a t c a l l s o n o ur better nature and pulls on
t h o s e h e a r t s t r i ngs sometimes to invoke those
i d e a s a b o u t w h a t it is that we’re honoring.
S o w i t h that, let’s talk about the
p e o p l e w e ’ r e h o noring here.

These were men

w h o w e r e v i r i l e men, they were strong, they
w e r e c o u r a g e o u s , they were bold, and they were
daring.

S o t o d ay it’s my hope that we don’t

p i c k d e s i g n s t h at don’t measure up to that;
t h a t t h e y c a n ’ t be just blasé and they can’t
b e t h i n g s t h a t tend towards clip art; that we
j u s t p u t o n a s eries of images just so we make
s u r e w e r e c o g n i ze every single little element
t h a t m i g h t b e a part of the history.
A t t h e end of the day, when we look at

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t h e h i s t o r y o f medals, and those that endure
i n t h e c o n s c i o u sness opposed to those that get
s e t a s i d e i n t h e also- rans of history.

Those

t h a t e n d u r e a n d are great and are recognized
l a t e r a n d , t h e r efore, call attention to that
t h a t i s b e i n g h onored much later in history
b e c a u s e i t ’ s t h e art that makes it beautiful,
t h a t m a k e s i t c ompelling, and makes people
w a n t t o l a t c h o nto it.

And when we do that,

w e c o n t i n u e t o honor those men and women or
w h o e v e r i t i s t hat we’re trying to recognize
t h r o u g h t h e m e d al.
Y e s t e r d ay I took a little trip over to
t h e S m i t h s o n i a n Museum of American Art.

I

m a d e m y w a y u p to the top floor; some of you
k n o w w h a t I ’ m g oing to go towards here.
T h e r e ’ s a s e r i e s of drawers at one corner of
t h e t o p l e v e l a nd it’s filled with medallions,
American medals.

And as I looked through each

o f t h o s e c a s e s and the ones displayed behind
t h e g l a s s , m a n y of those were there because of
their art.

T h e y weren’t there because they

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h a d a s t o r y l i n e or some kind of a clip art- ish
depiction.

I t was the art that had made them

endure.
S o w h e n we think about great medals,
y o u t h i n k a b o u t the European sculptors of
b y g o n e d a y s , K a rl Goetz, Pierre Morlon, Pierre
T u r i n i n F r a n c e --if you know those pieces, you
k n o w t h a t t h o s e are the ones that gravitate
towards the art.

And they’re great and they

c o n t i n u e t o b e great and they endure because
of the art.
S o I ’ m going through all of this today
b e c a u s e I w a n t to appeal to my members on the
C o m m i t t e e t h a t we were not created to simply
r e c o m m e n d d e s i g ns that are strictly in the
r e a l m o f t h e r e alistic.

That Congress created

u s b e c a u s e t h e y wanted to make sure there was
q u a l i t y i n t h e products of the U.S. Mint, and
t h e d e s i g n s o f that were put on the coins and
m e d a l s o f t h i s nation.

And each of you were

p u t h e r e b e c a u s e you have an expertise of some
v a r i e t y t h a t m a kes you important to this

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process.

S o I wanted to go first today

b e c a u s e I w a n t e d to give this discussion to
y o u a b o u t h o w i mportant it is that we don’t
j u s t s i m p l y g o to that that it is real.

That

w e s e e k a b a l a n ce.
A n d s o , with that I want to address
t h e d e s i g n s t h a t we indicated we wanted to
focus on.

I t h ink that 1, 1A, 2, 3, 4 are all

fine designs.

I think that Number 2, if we

c a n t h r o w t h a t one up, that’s a very
i n t e r e s t i n g d e s ign-M S . L A N NIN:

No, I liked Number 2,

Gary.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Excuse me?

Okay,

M a r y , I t h i n k I heard you?
M S . W A S TWEET:

I think she thought you

s a i d “ t h r o w o u t .”
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

No, no, I didn’t say

t h r o w o u t , I w a s just going to make some
c o m m e n t s o n t h a t, Mary.
Mary?

Are you hearing me,

O k a y , w e ’ll go on.
A n y w a y , I’m not sure this one really--

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t h e w a y t h e s h i p is in the water and all, I’m
n o t c o n v i n c e d t hat that’s a good portrayal,
b u t a n y w a y , w h a t I want to focus on and I was
t h e o n l y v o i c e that spoke up on this one.

If

w e c o u l d g o t o Number 6?
T h a t i s a piece of art and it
a d d r e s s e s s y m b o lically, it addresses the
p i l o t s a n d t h e aircraft with the eagle, and it
a d d r e s s e s t h e a ircraft carrier and her crew
w i t h t h e s e a h o r se, and those lightning bolts,
t h o s e a r e s y m b o lic of the strike.

It was

l i g h t n i n g f a s t , it was unexpected, and yet
it’s art.
A n d s o , I think if we were to pick
s o m e t h i n g l i k e this, it would be very
i m p o r t a n t t h a t we also pick a reverse that
t e l l s t h e s t o r y and that’s where I get at with
the balance.

B ut if we were to pick something

l i k e t h i s a n d i t were to become the medal, I
t r u l y b e l i e v e t hat decades later this is one
t h a t ’ s g o i n g t o be a standout.

This is going

t o b e o n e t h a t people talk about, that it was

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a r t i s t i c , i t w a s beautiful, and years later
p e o p l e a r e g o i n g to turn to this one and when
t h e y d o t h e r e a re going to be questions raised
a b o u t , w e l l , w h o were these men?

Who were the

p e o p l e b e h i n d t his piece of art?
T h e r e a re plenty of medals out there
t h a t a r e i n f o r m ational in nature and I don’t
b e l i e v e t h a t t h ey’re going to get much
recognition.

A fter the initial ceremony,

t h o s e w h o a r e i nvolved in it buy their copy, a
f e w o f u s w h o c ollect these, buy them--when
y o u g o o n t h e a ftermarket, you can’t find most
o f t h e m e d a l s i n the bronze fashion that are
for sale.
Y o u c a n ’t find many of those in the
aftermarket.

T he ones you do find are the

o n e s t h a t a r e a rtistic and beautiful and you
c a n f i n d t h o s e out there because there are
m o r e o f t h e m m a de because there was more
i n t e r e s t a t t h e time that it was produced,
b e c a u s e o f t h e art.
S o , w i t h that, I want to look at the

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reverse.

I t h i nk that Number 4--if we could

b r i n g u p R e v e r s e Number 4, which I believe is
t h e o n e t h a t M r . Anderson addressed.

I think

t h i s i s a g r e a t way to balance out this medal
b e c a u s e i t s h o w s the aircrafts.
I g u e s s I wanted to make sure that-m a y b e t h i s s h o u ld have been a technical
q u e s t i o n , b u t a t some point I want to make
s u r e t h a t t h e a ircraft are correct, as far as
t h e t y p e - - t h e r e ’s different variations of this
a i r c r a f t a n d I want to make sure that’s the
right one.

B u t we have, up towards the top,

w e ’ v e g o t a m a p of the Japanese islands, which
w a s t h e t a r g e t , of course, Tokyo.
T h e a i r craft in the sky, in their
m i s s i o n , y o u h a ve recognition to each of the
u n i t s t h a t w a s involved, and it’s over the
t o p , 1 7 t h B o m b a rdment Group, and then the
s l o g a n i n t h e m iddle.

A tremendous slogan,

p u t i t r i g h t t h ere in the middle of the
reverse.

P a i r that with that more artistic

o b v e r s e a n d I t hink you’d have a beautiful

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C o n g r e s s i o n a l g old medal that tells the story
a n d h a s t h e g r a vitas to be important in the
f u t u r e , w h e n o t hers will be set aside.
A n d I w ould hate to have this happen
to this medal.

It’s an important one; it

h o n o r s i m p o r t a n t people who literally turned
t h e t i d e i n t h e Japanese theater in World War
II.
S o w i t h that--and many of the remarks
I m a d e h e r e a l s o apply to the Aces, and when
w e c a n t a l k a b o ut those later.

I think we

n e e d t o f i n d b a lance with that, too.

So, with

t h a t I w a n t t o recognize Heidi for her
c o m m e n t s , a n d t hank you for listening to me.
M S . W A S TWEET:

Thank you, Gary.

I

a p p r e c i a t e y o u r comments about the art and I
d o l i k e D e s i g n Number 6.

I appreciate the

e f f o r t t h a t t h e artist made to represent this
i n a n a r t i s t i c way.

It’s not my favorite

d e s i g n i n t h e g roup, but I do like it.
T h e d e s ign that I was drawn to is
D e s i g n N u m b e r 2 , actually.

And to tell you

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w h y , I w a n t t o look at Design Number 3 first.
T h e r e ’ s n o t h i n g wrong with this design, but
t h e w o r d t h a t c omes to mind here is
“expected.”

T h is is the kind of thing that we

expect to see.

And, frankly, on this

C o m m i t t e e w e s e e a lot of military subjects.
T h e r e a r e a l o t of military medals and coins
a n d t h i s l o o k s like a lot of the other coins
that we’ve done.
I t ’ s a good design, but it’s not a
standout.

I w a nt to look at the point of the

viewer here.

W e are seeing these two crafts

f r o m a s a f e p l a ce, the ship’s in front of us,
t h e p l a n e i s g o ing overhead, off to do its
d u t y , w e ’ r e s i t ting in a very safe place.
B u t i f we look at Design Number 2,
w e ’ r e t h e t a r g e t and that shows to me the
force.

T h i s i s a very powerful, forceful

design.

I t ’ s c oming right at me, I’m the

e n e m y a n d I ’ m s cared.
after me.

Oh, no, they’re coming

I t ’ s a powerful, forceful thing.

A n d I f e e l t h e fear of having that force

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coming at me.
A n d a r t istically it’s a unique
p e r s p e c t i v e a n d the way that it’s organized,
t h e t r a n s i t i o n of the planes from smaller to
l a r g e r , t h e w a y it comes in a very pleasing
c o m p o s i t i o n o n the piece is very artistic.

I

t h i n k t h e w a v e s coming up against the bow
c r e a t e a n i c e p attern.

And I’m also looking

a t h o w t h e s e p a ir up, so I was drawn to this
a s a p a i r w i t h Reverse 8.
T h a n k y ou, so with Obverse 2 we have
t h e p l a n e s c o m i ng at us, we feel the force of
t h e m c o m i n g f o r ward at us.

But in Design 8

n o w w e s e e a d i fferent point of view, also the
p l a n e s a r e a r r a nged in a harmonious--in a
p a t t e r n w h i c h i s artistically pleasing, but
n o w w e ’ r e l o o k i ng down at them, so we are one
of them.

S o w e feel both perspectives of the

p l a n e s c o m i n g a t us, as if we were the enemy,
a n d w h a t t h a t m ust have felt like to have that
f o r c e c o m i n g a t us, and now we’re part of the
team.

W e f e e l what it’s like to be in the

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p i l o t ’ s s e a t l o oking down on our fellow
pilots.

A n d t h e outline of the target down on

t h e m a p a l s o c o nnects us with what’s going on,
on the ground.
S o w e h ave three points.

We feel what

i t ’ s l i k e c o m i n g at us, we feel like what it’s
l i k e b e i n g p a r t of the team, and we can
c o n n e c t w i t h w h at’s going on, on the ground.
S o I t h i n k t h a t ’s a lot of storytelling going
o n i n a s i m p l e , organized way, an artistic
way.

A n d t h e n along the rim we have in an

o r g a n i z e d f a s h i on and calling out the
d i f f e r e n t g r o u p s that were involved.
S o w e h ave the information there, but
i t ’ s n o t i n t e r f ering with the design, it’s not
c r o w d i n g t h e d e sign.

Reverse 4 is similar in

t h a t w e a r e a l s o looking down on the planes
a n d d o w n o n t h e ground.

I don’t connect so

m u c h w i t h t h e g round because I don’t see the
target.

A n d I do feel the patches crowd the

design.

T h e p a tches have been used elsewhere,

s o I f e e l i t ’ s a little repetitive.

And like

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G a r y s a i d , i n a future context it’s not as
c l e a n a n d p o w e r ful and it doesn’t attract me
s o m u c h t o s a y what’s going on here.
S o w h i l e this is a fine design,
t h e r e ’ s n o t h i n g wrong with it.

I feel that

D e s i g n 8 i s c l e aner and more powerful and does
b e t t e r a t t h e s torytelling.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M S . W A S TWEET:
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M R . U R A M:

Are you done?
That’s it.
Okay, Tom?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

A n d a l s o , B r i a n , I appreciate the comments
here.

B e f o r e I get started I wanted to read

s o m e t h i n g t h a t I picked up.

It goes like

t h i s , a n d i f y o u’d indulge me on this for a
minute?

J u s t a couple of lines here.
“ S o w e ’ ve got to reach history based

o n n o t w h a t ’ s i n fashion, but what’s
important.

W h y the pilgrims came here.

Who

J i m m y D o o l i t t l e was and what the 30 seconds
o v e r T o k y o m e a n t.

You know, 4 years ago on

t h e 4 0 t h a n n i v e rsary of D- Day, I read a letter

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f r o m a y o u n g w o man writing to her late father,
w h o f o u g h t o n O maha Beach.

Her name was Lisa

Z a n a t t a H e n n a n d she said:

‘We will always

r e m e m b e r , w e w i ll never forget what the boys
o f N o r m a n d y d i d .’
“ W e l l , let us help keep her word.

If

w e f o r g e t w h a t we did here, we won’t know who
we are.

I ’ m w a rning of the eradication of the

A m e r i c a n m e m o r y that could result ultimately
i n a n e r o s i o n o f the American spirit.

Let’s

s t a r t w i t h s o m e basic, more attention to
A m e r i c a n h i s t o r y.”
I f a n y o ne remembers it, that was
P r e s i d e n t R e a g a n’s farewell speech in 1988,
a n d i t h i t s e x a ctly what you’re saying when
y o u s a i d y o u s a w the deer in the headlight,
w h e n y o u s a w t h at.

So what the United States

M i n t d o e s i s b a sically--and what we do as a
C o m m i t t e e , a s t he Chairman mentioned, is we
p r e s e r v e h i s t o r y.

It’s what we do through art

a n d s o a s I l o o k at the designs for this and
a s w e l o o k a t p reserving the history, and

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n e v e r f o r g e t t i n g, and remembering what we’re
about.
A n d i t was kind of interesting because
i n t h a t t a l k h e only mentioned, basically, two
o r t h r e e p e o p l e , and it was the pilgrims, Jim
D o o l i t t l e , a n d the father of that daughter.
S o I ’ d l i k e t o look at Number 2, 3, and 6 on
the obverse.

A nd, as Heidi mentioned, it is

g r e a t t h a t t h i s is all coming at you.

And

i t ’ s k i n d o f a retro look at what happened and
so forth.

Y o u do get the emotion and the

f e e l i n g a b o u t i t and I think it’s a great
e x a m p l e , a s w e l l.
A n d N u m ber 3, the choice of the
C o m m i t t e e , I t h ink it’s a very traditional
a p p r o a c h a n d m a ny times I’m pretty much
t r a d i t i o n a l i n the history-( I n t e r r uption on phone.)
M R . U R A M:

And thank you for

listening.
( L a u g h t er.)
M R . U R A M:

And so the Design 3 here,

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c h o s e n b y t h e C ommittee, is a traditional
a p p r o a c h a n d s o forth, but also looking at
N u m b e r 6 , I t h i nk that there’s something to be
s a i d f o r t h e f u turistic design and what I
m e n t i o n e d i n t h ose opening remarks there is
t h e p r e s e r v i n g of history and the remembering
of history.
A n d t h i s is, in a way, a little bit
a l l e g o r i c a l , a s well, but there’s a lot to
t h i s a n d w h a t ’ s happening.

And I think that

i f w e d i d d o D e sign Number 3, with some of the
d e s i g n s o n t h e obverse, I am concerned that we
h a v e j u s t t o o m uch going on.

Too many planes,

t o o m u c h r e p e t i tiveness and I do like to see-a s m u c h a s s o m e times I get criticized as a
r e s u l t o f t h e 9 /11 medals of them being wordy
o n t h e b a c k , b u t they are totally different.
S o i n t his scenario, as well, I think
t h a t h a v i n g o p t ion Number 6 as a obverse,
c o u p l i n g i t w i t h either the reverse of Number
4 o r N u m b e r 8 , of which I looked at.

Looking

a t R e v e r s e 4 , I think that--will these planes

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b e a l i t t l e b i t more three dimensional, Dawn,
o r i s i t g o i n g to look like they’re just flat
o n t h e m e d a l t h ere?
M R . E V E RHART:
M R . U R A M:

No, it will be raised.

They’d be raised?

M R . E V E RHART:

Sure, yeah.

They

w o u l d n ’ t b e l i k e-M R . U R A M:

You wouldn’t want that

f r o n t o n e ; y o u ’ d want to see them up and so
forth.
M R . E V E RHART:
M R . U R A M:

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah, okay.

So I think

t h a t I t e n d t o lean, if we don’t do the
c a r r i e r a n d t h e plane on the obverse, then I
t h i n k t h i s i s w here it goes, with the patches.
A n d t h e other one I looked at was
N u m b e r 8 o n t h e reverse.

Once again I think

t h a t w i l l b e a nice perspective, as well, from
the air.

I l i k e both of those reverses and,

o n c e a g a i n , I t hink that coupling them
p r o p e r l y i s r e a lly the key, that’s why I’m
p r o b a b l y g o i n g to lean more towards Number 6

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o v e r N u m b e r 3 , although the design was really
n i c e a n d I a p p r eciate, Brian, the Committee’s
liking it.

I l ike it, too, but I think when

y o u p u t i t t o g e ther in the medal you have to
l o o k a t t h e p a i rings and I tend to lean more
t o w a r d s N u m b e r 6 with either a Reverse of 4A.
T h a n k y o u M r . C hairman.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you, Tom.

B e f o r e w e g o a n y further, we are--so everyone
k n o w s - - w e ’ r e h a ving some trouble with keeping
M a r y o n t h e l i n e, so if she is on the line
presently-M S . L A N NIN:

I’m here, just for the

m o m e n t , t h o u g h , Gene.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Okay, Mary, while we

h a v e y o u , w h y d on’t you go ahead and give us
your comments?
M S . L A N NIN:

Okay, thanks so much.

I

w a s k i n d o f h o p ing that that would happen.
T h e s e c o n d t i m e that I was lost and came back,
I j o i n e d H e i d i - -or heard part of what Heidi
w a s s a y i n g a n d it was words out of my own

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mouth.

M y f a v o rite combination is the Obverse

o f 2 b e c a u s e I look at those three planes
c o m i n g a t m e a n d that giant carrier and all I
c a n t h i n k o f i s , if I were the enemy is, uhoh.
( L a u g h t er.)
M S . L A N NIN:
and direct.

And it is really powerful

I t ’s coming right at you.

And to

m e t h e c o m p l e t e ly logical reverse, again, is
what Heidi said.

Now we’re in the planes and

w e ’ r e l o o k i n g d own and we’ve seen our target.
A n d I j u s t t h i n k it’s clean, it’s powerful.
A s m u c h a s t h e y want the patches, I also was
b l o c k e d o u t o f part of another conversation,
b u t I r e a l l y d o like the Reverse Number 8.

So

I t h i n k t h a t t h at makes a good combination, so
I ’ l l j u s t k e e p my remarks brief in case I go
away again.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
Mary.

Okay, thank you,

T h a t w i l l go over to Robert.
M R . H O G E:

Thank you, Gary.

I like

t h e c a r e a n d s k ill which so many of these

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d e s i g n s h a v e b e en prepared.

I want to go over

t h e a p p e a r a n c e of the Hornet on some of these.
I t l o o k s s o m e t i mes a little bit less realistic
t h a n w h a t m i g h t be appropriate.
R e g a r d i ng the Obverse Design Number 6,
w h i l e I l i k e t h e idea of including these
a l l e g o r i c a l e l e ments, I have a little
d i f f i c u l t y a c c e pting the combination of the
s t r a n g e l o o k i n g eagle and the hippocampus, as
d e s i g n a t i n g t h e planes and the aircraft
carrier.

A n d I don’t know if this is

s o m e t h i n g t h a t would be well understood ages
into the future.
B u t a s i de from that, I do like Obverse
N u m b e r 2 f o r t h e power the imagery suggests.
N u m b e r 3 , I t h i nk, is probably my favorite in
t e r m s o f t h e h i storical representation of the
a c t u a l a p p e a r a n ce of the aircraft carrier and
t h e p l a n e a n d t he bomber.

But when I think in

t e r m s o f a l l o f these in combining an obverse
a n d a r e v e r s e , in looking at the reverses I do
f a v o r R e v e r s e 8 for the same reasons which

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w e ’ v e a l r e a d y a ddressed here, but I think that
i t m i g h t b e m o r e appropriate to put the motto,
t h e “ T o u j o u r s a u Danger” around the margin,
r a t h e r t h a n t h e descriptions, thunderbird,
l i o n , w i n g e d h e lmet, mule.

These don’t really

e x p l a i n a n y t h i n g without the appearance of the
patches.

A n d I think it’s just a lot of

a d d i t i o n a l l e t t ering and wording that isn’t
g o i n g t o r e a l l y signify anything.

I would

m u c h p r e f e r t o see that “Always in Danger.”
A n d p e r haps we might even want to
b r i n g i n “ F i r s t Strike,” the inscription from
t h e o b v e r s e , i n to a combination here on the
r e v e r s e , a s w e l l.

And on the obverse, instead

j u s t m a k e s u r e that we have the date, April
1 8 , 1 9 4 2 , a l o n g with Doolittle Tokyo Raiders.
T h i s g i v e s s o m e interest in the design.
W e l l , w hat happened?

Here’s this

g r o u p a n d h e r e ’ s a date, what’s going on?
I t ’ s o b v i o u s l y an attack if you look at
O b v e r s e N u m b e r 2 and on Number 3, as well, and
the others.

I think they give the idea of the

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a t t a c k a n d t h e n the result would be the
r e v e r s e , t h e a c tual bombing.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
Robert.

A n y c o mments?
M S . L A N NIN:
M R . M O R AN:

That’s all.

Okay, thank you,
Michael?

Thank you.
Thank you, Gary.

Overall

I r e s p e c t t h e a ttempt of the designers to
i n c l u d e b o t h t h e carrier and the bombers.

I

t h i n k i t ’ s a v e ry difficult situation to do
b e c a u s e y o u h a v e a difference in scale here
b e t w e e n t h e b o m bers and the aircraft carrier.
A n d t o g e t t h i s , in terms of equal
r e p r e s e n t a t i o n on the medal, you run into some
difficulties.
L o o k i n g first at Number 1 and 1A, you
h a v e r e s o r t e d t o a semi- abstract aircraft
c a r r i e r t o g e t this done.

The problem is it’s

n o t a b s t r a c t e n ough and it comes across very
s i m p l i s t i c a l l y like stacked blocks for the
s u p e r s t r u c t u r e there.

Also you have the wrong

m o d e l o f t h e B -25 there in both of those.
I m a g e 2 , this one grows on me.

Being

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t i e d t o r e a l i s m , and I can’t divorce myself
f r o m t h a t v e r y often, I’m troubled that we
d o n ’ t s e e s o m e image of the superstructure
t h e r e , b u t w h e r e I originally didn’t like
t h i s , i t h a s c o ntinued to grow on me and it
w i l l g e t s o m e o f my votes today.

It is

p o w e r f u l s e e i n g the carrier come at you.
I w o u l d have preferred the perspective
b e a l i t t l e b i t closer to the water, so that
y o u e l i m i n a t e t hat need for the- -I just won’t
l o o k f o r t h e s u perstructure to be down at the
w a t e r , b u t a g a i n, it’s good work.
N u m b e r 3, I think, suffers from the
s a m e p r o b l e m a s Number 1.

You’ve gone with

d e t a i l o n t h e c arrier and, in a medal, I don’t
c a r e h o w m u c h r elief you put into that thing,
y o u ’ r e g o i n g t o have difficulties with that.
I t ’ s g o i n g t o b e a lot of busyness
r e p r e s e n t i n g t h e ocean and the carrier itself.
N u m b e r 4, I like that concept because
y o u ’ v e g o t t h e plane, you’ve got the carrier
in silhouette.

I know it doesn’t give the

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N a v y e f f o r t i n this joint task force enough
c r e d i t , b u t i t has something to lend in that
i t d o e s a c k n o w l edge the carrier and I don’t
b e l i e v e t h e b e s t of the art is going to get
f u l l b a l a n c e w i th an entire carrier anyway.
N u m b e r 6, I struggle with the
symbolism here.

It is a compromise in my

m i n d , i f w e c a n ’t get 2, the depiction of the
c a r r i e r a n d t h e planes at the moment of
takeoff.

I ’ m p robably the only one that liked

Number 9.
“aye.”

I d i dn’t hear anybody else say

A n d I p robably got sucked in by some

o f t h e s h a d i n g that won’t be there, but I like
t h e p e r s p e c t i v e of looking at the bomber from
the underneath.

I like the fact that the

c a r r i e r ’ s a t a n angle.

It was choppy water

t h e r e ; I ’ v e s e e n the film clips.

I don’t know

h o w t h e h e l l t h ey took off.
Y o u ’ v e got enough detail in the
s u p e r s t r u c t u r e , but it is not overwhelming.
I f t h e p r o p e l l e r motion can be captured on the
m e d a l , t h a t o n e looks good to me, as well.

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T u r n i n g to the reverse, my vote is
p r o b a b l y g o i n g to go to Number 4, in support
o f t h e c h o i c e o f the Raiders.

I don’t like,

t h o u g h , t h e t e x turing continuing on beyond the
i n n e r p a r a m e t e r , down below around the
patches.

I t h i nk the patches would look

b e t t e r i f y o u c ontinued that parameter and had
t h e p a t c h e s b r e aking up the parameter as you
g o a n d l e a v i n g Act of Congress 2014 in a clear
field.
I h a v e problems with Number 8.
C o n c e p t u a l l y I like Number 8.

I don’t know

t h a t t h e p a t c h e s bring that much or the
s q u a d r o n d e s i g n ations bring that much to the
medal.

M y p r o b lem here is that the point of

a t t a c k i s a h a r bor that I first thought, well,
m a y b e t h a t ’ s T o kyo harbor.

It’s not readily

a p p a r e n t w h a t t hey’re attacking here.

If it

w e r e e v e n j u s t an outline of Japan, or the
i s l a n d s o f J a p a n--as it is in Number 4--I
t h i n k y o u w o u l d have conveyed the thought
b e t t e r t h a n l i k e this.

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I u n d e r stand Heidi’s point that these
a r e f o u r b o m b e r s in formation and we’re
l o o k i n g d o w n a t them, as if we were in another
l a y e r u p a b o v e of another strike, but I just
c a n ’ t g e t p a s t the depiction of the target
there.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you, Mike.

We

go to Herman.
D R . V I O LA:

Thank you, Gary.

First of

a l l I j u s t w a n t to heckle the other comments
h e r e a b o u t h o w valuable this Committee is and
a c t u a l l y t h e h i storical importance of what
we’re doing.

A s a historian, I feel I have an

o b l i g a t i o n t o p rotect that.

And as we know,

h i s t o r i c a l e d u c ation in our country is getting
w a t e r e d d o w n c o nstantly and I think having
p l a n e s l i k e t h i s that can really have a story
a n d a m e s s a g e a re vital.
W e a r e going to lose our spirit and
t h e i m p o r t a n c e of history in our education.
A n d s o I f e e l e xtremely honored that I’m part
o f t h e s e t w o v e ry important commemorative

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moments.
A n d t h e n I have to really defer to my
c o l l e a g u e s h e r e as far as design, art, and all
this.

I t ’ s a m a zing how my opinions change as

I l i s t e n t o p e o ple talk.

Heidi is very

p e r s u a s i v e , b u t I also like what Gary had to
say.
N o w , N u mber 2, the obverse--I find
t h a t e x t r e m e l y dramatic, but I feel that the
p e r s p e c t i v e i s a bit wrong.

It looks like the

s h i p i s r e a l l y closer than the airplanes and I
w o u l d t h i n k i t should have been more distant
i n t h e b a c k g r o u nd, that the planes have taken
o f f a n d a r e c o m ing at you.

But I do like this

one quite a bit.
B u t I ’ m also persuaded by what Gary
h a d t o s a y a b o u t Design 6.

And my own thought

w o u l d b e t h a t I would put the Reverse Number 4
a n d m a k e t h a t t he obverse because then you’re
a l w a y s i n d a n g e r.

I think that’s just very

s t r i k i n g a n d y o u could change the lettering
a b o u t F i r s t S t r ike or Doolittle Raiders, but

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m a k e t h a t t h e o bverse and then put that very
d r a m a t i c a r t s c ene, Number 6, as the reverse,
b u t I s u p p o s e t hat’s not going to happen.
B u t I w ould say that for the reverse
m y f a v o r i t e i s Number 4, but I also like
N u m b e r 8 , b u t I agree with the other comments
t h a t t h i s l e t t e ring above the patches on
N u m b e r 8 , t h a t doesn’t make sense.

I think we

o u g h t t o h a v e s omething on there like “Always
t o D a n g e r ” o r s ome other wording, but to put
d o w n “ l i o n , ” t h at just doesn’t mean much at
all.

S o i f w e can fiddle a little bit with

s o m e o f t h e s e d esign concepts I think you’ve
g o t s o m e v e r y , very important designs, very
h i s t o r i c d e s i g n s and I’m just glad to be able
t o b e p a r t o f t he voting on that.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you.

Thank you, Herman.

A n d b e f o r e w e g o to Erik, I just wanted to
c o m m e n t o n y o u r discussion about obverse
v e r s u s r e v e r s e and which is which.
H i s t o r i c a l l y t h e Committee at times has, as
p a r t o f i t s r e c ommendations, suggested that

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c e r t a i n d e s i g n s that were presented as obverse
o r r e v e r s e s h o u ld be switched to the other, so
i t ’ s n o t w i t h o u t precedent.
A n d i f , given the event that designs
t h a t y o u a r e i n terested in, that you feel
s h o u l d b e f l i p p ed around--after we go through
o u r i n i t i a l b a l loting, if you want to make a
m o t i o n t o t h a t regard, please understand that
you can do that.

So I tell you that now

b e c a u s e t h a t m a y influence how you want to
t a l l y y o u r v o t e s.

So, just so you have that

i n f o r m a t i o n , a s the rest of us have.
S o , E r i k, with those comments I’ll go
to you.
M R . J A N SEN:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

M y i n i t i a l r e a c tion in going through the
o b v e r s e a n d t h e reverse art was to try to find
a w a y t o a v o i d airplanes on both sides.

It’s

a b i t o f a c h a l lenge just based on the way the
a r t i s r o l l e d i n, and so I’ve put that aside.
O n t h e obverse, to me, I narrow it
d o w n t o f o u r d e signs, which is not really a

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narrowing.

B u t each of the four stands on a

s l i g h t l y d i f f e r ent dimension.
I f I w e re to pull the art intention
h e r e , I t h i n k t he Obverse Number 6 is a very
powerful image.

If you do take a moment to

r e a l l y l o o k a t it and get over its busyness,
y o u d o s e e t h e eagle of freedom on the
l i g h t n i n g b o l t , very energetic.
A n d y o u see the horse with the scaled
t a l e , w h i c h g i v es you the context of the sea
attack.

I t ’ s a very, very deep and energetic

a r t i s t i c i m a g e ; however, it is a bit obscure
a n d i n v i t e s e x a mination until you really get
it.

I f y o u w e r e to go for just plain, in your

f a c e e n e r g y , I think you end up on Image
Number 2.
H a v i n g said that, it might be
i n t e r e s t i n g t o shrink the size of the carrier
a g a i n t o a p p l y the perspective that my cohort
h e r e p r e v i o u s l y said, that if those planes
w e r e a l i t t l e c loser to me--perceived as
c l o s e r a n d n o t so intimate to the takeoff

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p o i n t - - t h e w a y the perspective is drawn here,
a t t h e e d g e o f the carrier, there is this, oh,
m y g o s h , h e r e t hey come.

This is going to be

a h i g h e n e r g y a ttack.
I t h i n k that is the big value of this
design.
somehow.

I w o u l d love to see the date on here
A n d t hat could get into moving some

t e x t f r o m r e v e r se to obverse here.

I think

t h e d a t e l e n d s itself very rapidly to a
r e c o g n i t i o n b y the observer that this is a
W o r l d W a r I I a w ard because the date is so
o b v i o u s l y a m i d s t the early forties of World
War II.
I f y o u go for the most dramatic
p i c t u r e , I g o D esign 3 because it is, as the
s t o r y w e ’ v e h e a rd, the tough waves.
p l a n e l e a v i n g t he carrier.

I have a bit of

t r o u b l e w i t h t h e perspective.
bit contrived.

It is the

I think it’s a

And then my fourth choice goes

t o w a r d s t h e f u l ly balanced Design 4.

The

f u l l y b a l a n c e d documentary view, it’s a little
bit low energy.

It’s a nicely balanced

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d e s i g n , c a r r i e s the date, carries the message
a n d i n t h a t s e n se is a very, very down the
m i d d l e s u f f i c i e nt design.
I t l a c k s the energy.

The plane

d o e s n ’ t h a v e t h e sense of Design 2’s energy,
b u t t h o s e a r e m y four designs.

If I prefer

o n e o f t h e m , w i th the modification of backing
t h e c a r r i e r o f f , I’d probably prefer Design 2
b e c a u s e I t h i n k that carries the hard impact
here.

I t c h a l l enges the eye immediately to

s a y , w a i t a s e c ond, this is an odd image.
W h a t i s t h i s a b out?

And then you suddenly get

t h e v e r y h a r s h reality of, oh, my gosh, here
they come.
W h e n I go to the reverse design, to me
t h i s i s a b a t t l e between two designs and one
o f t h o s e w o u l d be Design Number 4, which is
f a v o r e d b y t h e pilot’s group themselves.

I

t h i n k t h i s n i c e ly carries their four images
o f - - w o u l d t h e y be wings?
t h a t a N a v y t e r m?

I don’t know, is

The four groups that

a c t u a l l y f l e w t hese sorties?

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M R . A N D ERSON:
M R . J A N SEN:

Squadrons.
Squadrons, okay.

I do

a g r e e t h a t I t h ink the parameter should be
c a r r i e d a r o u n d consistent around the bottom,
f r o m 5 t o 7 o ’ c lock, and not have the
t e x t u r i n g o f t h e center portion bled off the
edge.

I d o n ’ t think that detracts, I think

t h a t a d d s t o t h e contrast and the pull of the
e y e t o t h o s e f o ur symbols.
H o w e v e r , when I look at the full 8i n c h i m a g e o f D esign Number 4--no, I take that
back.

T h e i m a g e I’m confusing with something

else.

I a l s o l iked Design Number 8.

Design

N u m b e r 8 p u t s m e in the belly of an overflying
a i r p l a n e a n d w e re getting ready to bomb this
place.

I a m s e nsitive to the comments that if

y o u ’ r e n o t a g e ographic expert you won’t
r e c o g n i z e t h a t as Tokyo Harbor, and perhaps
t h e a r t i s t i c b a lance of the design might get a
l i t t l e s c r e w e d up if that were to be backed
o f f a n d m a d e i n to more of an image of the
J a p a n e s e i s l a n d s.

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I a l s o think the parameter should be
w i d e n e d j u s t a bit, so that the lettering is a
l i t t l e b i t m o r e substantial.
A c t o f Congress certainly disappears,
b u t m o r e t h a n t hat, I think if the parameter
l e t t e r i n g a r e a were expanded by maybe 50
p e r c e n t w e ’ d g e t a little more emphasis on the
b o m b a r d m e n t g r o up, the names, the numbers,
w h i c h I t h i n k i s important to the constituents
b e i n g h o n o r e d h ere.
S o I d o n’t have hard recommendations
a n d I ’ l l p r o b a b ly split my votes along those
lines.

T h i s i s an interesting medal; it is an

a b s o l u t e l y f a s c inating group to be honored, by
h i s t o r i c a l p r e c edent what they accomplished,
t h e c o u r a g e i t took to do it, and I’m just
v e r y h o n o r e d t o be here to be part of putting
t h e m i n t h e h i s tory of the Mint’s medal
series.

T h a n k you.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you, Erik.

I ’ l l n o t e , a s f ar as our agenda; that we are
n o w a l i t t l e b i t behind.

We were supposed to

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c o m e t o a c l o s e of this subject at 10:30, so I
w i l l a s k f o r m e mbers to give any final
c o m m e n t s t h e y m ay have.

We’ll go to the

s p o n s o r i n g o r g a nization for their final
c o m m e n t s a n d t h en we’ll need to get to our
balloting.
F o r m y final comments, I’ll just add
t h a t w h e n I f i r st spoke, when I spoke of
m e d a l s t h a t h a v e endured I failed to mention
s o m e t h i n g o f g r eat significance, at least to
me.

A n d t h a t w as a series of medals that was

p r o d u c e d i n t h e sixties through the maybe the
e a r l y n i n e t i e s by a group called the Society
of Medalists.
A n d i f you’re familiar with those, and
m a n y o f u s i n t he hobby are, there were some
v e r y s i g n i f i c a n t pieces created through that
s e r i e s a n d w e a ctually are honored to have one
o f t h e m e d a l i s t s here on our staff, Don
E v e r h a r t , w h o I think has the distinction of
b e i n g o n e o f t h e only--a couple of people had
t w o r e c o g n i t i o n s under the Society of

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M e d a l i s t s a n d t hose medals were ones that were
about art.

A n d they endure today because of

t h e a r t a n d t h e messages they convey --endure-a n d I ’ l l c o n t e n d, by large measure, from the
a r t i s t i c q u a l i t y that was within those.
S o w i t h that I’ll just mention that if
s i x w e r e c h o s e n , and I’m not sure that it’s
g o i n g t o b e o n the obverse, I would want to
h a v e a d i s c u s s i on about the legs on the
seahorse.

S e a h orses don’t normally have legs.

S o I d o n ’ t k n o w what the rest of the Committee
w o u l d f e e l a b o u t that, but we don’t need to
h a v e a d i s c u s s i on with that unless it’s
chosen.
A n d I h eard some comments that people
m i g h t n o t u n d e r stand what this is.

I’ll

r e m i n d t h e C o m m ittee that’s why I emphasized
b a l a n c i n g i t w i th a reverse that contained the
i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t was relevant to the subject
being honored.

And, also, I don’t think it’s

a b a d t h i n g f o r people to ask questions
b e c a u s e o f t e n t hat’s the first step in gaining

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k n o w l e d g e a n d w anting to educate oneself.

And

t h a t g o e s t o m y whole point about art and
i n v o k i n g s o m e t h ing in us that impacts us and
i n s o m e w a y s , a nd oftentimes, one of those
i m p a c t s i s t o s eek more education.
S o a r e there any other quick followups?
( N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Okay, hearing none,

t h e n I w i l l g o to one of our sponsors.

Mr.

A n d e r s o n , d i d y ou have any further comments
y o u ’ d l i k e t o g ive the Committee?
M R . A N D ERSON:

Just a couple.

a p p r e c i a t e t h e comments from you all.
a n a r t i s t , I ’ m a historian.
h i s t o r y a n d f o l lowing it.

I
I’m not

I believe in
I’ve got a pretty

e x t e n s i v e W o r l d War II artwork collection.
I ’ v e p r o b a b l y g ot up to 100 pieces, but I
b o u g h t t h o s e p i eces because they were
a c c u r a t e l y c o r r ect.

And that’s just how it

is.
S o y o u guys are the Committee, you’re

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g o i n g t o d o w h a t you think is best, but please
r e m e m b e r w h a t t he guys would like.

And if

y o u ’ r e g o i n g t o go with Number 2, it needs to
h a v e a d a t e i n there.

It’s an aircraft

c a r r i e r b e c a u s e I know it’s an aircraft
c a r r i e r , b u t o t her people may not be able to
figure that out.

Remember, the Japanese

c a r r i e r s d i d n ’ t have a superstructure either.
A n d , a g a i n , I d on’t want--we don’t give little
d e s c r i p t i o n s o u t with the medals, do we, when
p e o p l e g e t t h e m , that says what we’re trying
to convey?
U N I D E N T IFIED SPEAKER:
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M R . A N D ERSON:

Sometimes.

I’m not sure what-Just so--again, I

a p p r e c i a t e y o u r time and effort.

I’m just

s p e a k i n g f o r t h e Raiders and for the
community.

A f t er Sea is wonderful, but

w h a t e v e r y o u d o , we need to have First Strike,
i t n e e d s t o h a v e the date on there and I hope
t h a t w e c a n c o m e to some conclusion and some
c o n s e n s u s , s o t hank you.

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C H A I R M A N MARKS:
Anderson.

Thank you, Mr.

O k a y , at this point I’ll ask the

m e m b e r s t o f i l l out their scoring sheets and
p a s s t h o s e i n t o our Committee secretary, Erik.
A n d h e ’ l l b e g i n that tally.
M R . J A N SEN:

Thank you.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Meanwhile, I’m going

t o a s k A p r i l i f she would give us her report
o n t h e A m e r i c a n Fighter Aces Congressional
G o l d M e d a l , A p r il?
M S . S T A FFORD:
1 1 3 -1 0 5 .

Yes, it’s Public Law

I t a u thorizes a Congressional Gold

M e d a l i n h o n o r of the American Fighter Aces
c o l l e c t i v e l y , i n recognition of their heroic
m i l i t a r y s e r v i c e in defense of our country’s
f r e e d o m t h r o u g h out the history of aviation
warfare.
A s d e s c ribed in the findings of the
l e g i s l a t i o n , t h e American Fighter Aces are
U n i t e s S t a t e s m ilitary pilots credited with
d e s t r o y i n g f i v e or more confirmed enemy
a i r c r a f t i n a e r ial combat during a war or

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c o n f l i c t i n w h i ch the American Armed Forces
h a v e p a r t i c i p a t ed.
A c e s h a ve served in World Wars I and
I I , K o r e a , a n d Vietnam.

More than 60,000

f i g h t e r p i l o t s have flown since World War I,
b u t f e w e r t h a n 1,500 are called Fighter Ace.
T h e t e r m “ F i g h t er Ace” applies to a pilot in
c o m m a n d o f t h e attacking aircraft.

Specific

r e q u i r e m e n t s a r e a minimum of five confirmed
a e r i a l k i l l s , a nd both the attacking plane and
t h e t a r g e t p l a n e must be in the air
dogfighting.
T h e u n i que valuable skills that have
m a k e F i g h t e r A c es successful include courage,
j u d g m e n t , k e e n marksmanship, concentration,
d r i v e , p e r s i s t e nce, and split- second thinking.
M a n y A c e s h a v e achieved the ranks of admiral
a n d g e n e r a l , 1 9 received the Medal of Honor.
W e h a v e w i t h u s today Dr. Greg Wagner, board
m e m b e r o f t h e A merican Fighter Aces
Association.

A nd after we go through the

o b v e r s e a n d r e v erse candidate designs, I’ll

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a s k D r . W a g n e r to say a few words to the
Committee.
S t a r t i n g with the obverse designs, we
h a v e s i x f o r c o nsideration.

Obverse Number 1

d e p i c t s A c e p i l ots and their aerial combat
skills.

I t f e a tures four pilots representing

e a c h c o n f l i c t a nd a hostile aircraft in the
crosshairs.

I n cluded are the inscriptions

A m e r i c a n F i g h t e r Aces, and superimposed over
c r o s s h a i r s , A r m y, Navy, Air Force, and
Marines.

T h i s is a preferred obverse design

f r o m o u r l i a i s o n.
O b v e r s e s Numbers 2 and 3 represent the
g l o b a l i m p a c t o f the Aces accomplishments.
T h e d e s i g n s f e a ture pilots, each representing
a b r a n c h o f t h e military, five stars
r e p r e s e n t i n g t h e aerial combat victories
r e q u i r e d f o r A c e qualification, a globe
s y m b o l i z i n g t h e various combat theaters, and a
s p a d e i n m i l i t a ry wings representing the
A m e r i c a n F i g h t e r Aces themselves.
D e s i g n 3 includes a four- blade

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p r o p e l l e r t o r e present each conflict.
I n s c r i p t i o n s a r e Courage, Tenacity, and Duty
A b o v e A l l , A m e r ican Fighter Aces; and Courage,
L e a d e r s h i p , a n d Duty Above All.

So here we

h a v e O b v e r s e 2 , which is also a preferred
o b v e r s e d e s i g n from our liaison, and Obverse
3.
O b v e r s e Number 4 depicts a World War
I I A c e p i l o t s u rrounded by four fighter
a i r c r a f t s f r o m four different conflicts.

We

h a v e t h e S P A D S . XIII biplane from World War I
a t t h e t o p o f t he design, a Grumman F6F
H e l l c a t f r o m W o rld War II, a North American F8 6 f o r K o r e a , a nd an F- 4 Phantom from Vietnam
i n t h e f o r e g r o u nd.

A spade and five stars

s e e n a t t h e b a s e of the design are emblematic
o f t h e A c e s a n d the aerial combat victories
r e q u i r e d f o r A c e qualification.

Inscriptions

a r e A m e r i c a n F i ghter Aces and Act of Congress
2014.
O b v e r s e Number 5 depicts crosshairs
a n d f i v e s t a r s symbolizing the aerial combat

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v i c t o r i e s r e q u i red, a globe representing the
v a r i o u s c o m b a t theaters, and a spade and two
a e r i a l c o m b a t a ircrafts.

It is inscribed

A m e r i c a n F i g h t e r Aces and Courage, Valor, and
Duty Above All.
O b v e r s e Number 6 depicts five stars
r e p r e s e n t i n g t h e aerial victories needed for
A c e q u a l i f i c a t i on, a globe representing the
v a r i o u s c o m b a t theaters, and a spade and four
a e r i a l c o m b a t a ircrafts flown during each
conflict.

I t i s inscribed America Fighter

Aces.
M o v i n g on to the reverse designs, of
w h i c h t h e r e a r e eight for consideration.
R e v e r s e N u m b e r 1 features aircraft flown
d u r i n g e a c h c o n flict in which the Aces served,
a n d f i v e s t a r s representing the aerial combat
v i c t o r i e s r e q u i red for Ace qualification.
I n s c r i p t i o n s a r e Courage, Tenacity, and Duty
A b o v e A l l ; 2 0 1 4 -An Act of Congress.

This is a

p r e f e r r e d r e v e r se design from our liaison.
R e v e r s e Number 2 depicts a hostile

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a i r c r a f t i n t h e eye of crosshairs and includes
f i v e s t a r s a t t he bottom of the border,
r e p r e s e n t i n g t h e aerial combat victories
required.

I t i s inscribed WWI, WWII, Korea,

V i e t n a m ; a n d C o urage, Leadership, and Duty
Above All.
R e v e r s e Number 3 depicts a propeller
s u p e r i m p o s e d o v er a map.

Inscriptions are

W W I , W W I I , K o r e a, Vietnam; and Courage,
L e a d e r s h i p , a n d Duty Above All.
R e v e r s e s Number 4, 5, and 6 depict an
e a g l e w i t h o u t s tretched wings among four
a i r c r a f t s r e p r e senting each conflict in which
the Aces served.

The designs are inscribed

N a v y , A i r F o r c e , Marines, Army; Act of
C o n g r e s s 2 0 1 4 ; and Courage, Leadership, and
Duty Above All.

Here is Reverse 4, 5, and 6.

R e v e r s e s Number 7 and 8 feature an
e a g l e c l u t c h i n g four thunderbolts with its
w i n g s f o r m e d i n the shape of a spade.

Five

s t a r s a r e f e a t u red at the top of Design 8
s y m b o l i z i n g t h e aerial combat victories

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required.

D e s i gn 7 has four stars symbolizing

t h e f o u r c o n f l i cts.

It is inscribed Courage,

T e n a c i t y , D u t y ; and Act of Congress 2014.

So

h e r e ’ s R e v e r s e 7 and 8.
A n d i f I can ask Dr. Wagner to make a
few comments.
D R . W A G NER:
n a m e ’ s G r e g W a g ner.

Thank you, April.

My

I’m a board member of the

A m e r i c a n F i g h t e r Aces Association and am very
p r o u d t o r e p r e s ent these great aviators.

And

f i r s t o f a l l I ’ d like to thank the United
S t a t e s M i n t , t h e CCAC, and also April and
B e t t y f o r a l l o f your help in designing this
medal for us.
A l i t t l e bit about the American
Fighter Aces.
points.

April touched on some of these

T h e U n ites States has trained over

6 0 , 0 0 0 f i g h t e r pilots since the advent of
a r m e d f l i g h t i n World War I, but yet less than
1 , 5 0 0 b e c a m e F i ghter Aces with the required
f i v e a e r i a l k i l ls since World War I.

American

F i g h t e r A c e s c a me from all walks of life, they

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w e r e s t u d e n t s , they were farmers, they were
e d u c a t o r s , t h e y were engineers.

When this

c o u n t r y c a l l e d for duty, they came.

A lot of

t h e d i d n ’ t e v e n know if they could fly, but
t h e r e w a s t h i s inner desire within them that
s a i d , I w a n t t o take to the air, and they did.
A n d t h e y fought hard.

The American

F i g h t e r A c e w a s not a fighter pilot who stood
b a c k i n a n a e r i al battle and he was one that
was aggressive.

And that’s one I want to talk

a b o u t l a t e r , b u t aggressiveness--he took the
e n e m y h e a d -o n i n an aerial dogfight.

He was

o n e t h a t w o u l d fight until the very last
bullet.

S e v e r a l Fighter Aces, who had no

b u l l e t s a c t u a l l y used their wing to slice the
e n e m y i n h a l f d uring the Battle of the Torres
S t r a i t , i n 1 9 4 2 , which was just north of
Australia.
T h a t w a s Colonel A.T. House, his
c o m m a n d i n g o f f i cer needed help and he
r e s p o n d e d b y s l icing the Japanese Zero
c o m p l e t e l y i n h alf with his wing.

And he

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a c t u a l l y l a n d e d that aircraft back on Horn
I s l a n d a n d i t w as quite an event.

And so

t h e r e a r e m a n y Aces that actually did that.
H e ’ s n o t t h e o n ly one.
A n y w a y , as I said from the beginning,
I t h o u g h t t h i s would be a very challenging
p r o j e c t b e c a u s e of the number of combinations
a n d p e r m u t a t i o n s associated with the American
Fighter Aces.

In other words, there were four

w a r s , W o r l d W a r I, World War II, Korea, and
V i e t n a m , t h a t p roduced Aces.
I n W o r l d War I, again this is another
p o i n t I w a n t t o come back to later, we had
o v e r 1 0 0 A c e s , in World War II we had over
1 , 2 0 0 ; i n K o r e a , we had exactly 40; and in
V i e t n a m , w e h a d exactly 2.

But I’ll come back

t o t h a t l a t e r i n my more detailed comments.
T o d a y t he United States has only 87
F i g h t e r A c e s s t ill alive from World War II,
K o r e a , a n d b o t h Aces from Vietnam are still
with us.

W e c o ntinue to lose them at a very

rapid rate.

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N e x t I ’ d like to move to just some
c o m m e n t s a b o u t this very top- level comments on
the design.

I , myself, as the liaison

p r e f e r r e d D e s i g n Number 2 with modification.
M S . S T A FFORD:
D R . W A G NER:

Is that Obverse 2?
Obverse 2, yep.

General

C l e v e l a n d , w h o ’ s the head of our association,
h e p r e f e r s O b v e rse 1, however he said he’s
happy with both.
modifications.

And, of course, both with
I want to clarify that.

A n d o n the reverse, we are both in
a g r e e m e n t o n R e verse Number 1.
modification.
are:

Again, with

The general top- level comments

T h e s l o g a n Courage, Tenacity, and Duty

Above All.

A n d I guess our issue is with the

word “Tenacity.”

If you go back to the bill

a n d r e a d - - I t h i nk April read Comment Number 7,
6 or 7.

I f y o u read some of the words in

t h e r e , w e w o u l d like your help in maybe coming
u p w i t h a s l o g a n that flows a little better
a n d a c c u r a t e l y describes aggressiveness and
tenacity.

S o t hat’s one comment.

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T h e o t h er is the Navy and the Marines
i s r e a l l y n o t , per se, represented on the
c h o s e n r e v e r s e and obverse.

The Navy and the

M a r i n e s m a k e u p --for instance, there’s almost
2 0 0 M a r i n e C o r p s Aces out of the 1,460- plus
A c e s t o t a l a n d there’s almost 500 Aces from
the Navy.

S o t hey’re going to ask me, well,

w h e r e a r e w e r e presented?

There’s a lot on

t h e A i r F o r c e a nd World War I, but not on the
N a v y a n d t h e M a rines.
T h e o t h er is we’d like to see the
a i r c r a f t m o r e b alanced in--this is on Reverse
N u m b e r 1 - - t h e a ircraft more balanced-c o m m e n s u r a t e w i th the number of Aces that were
produced.

I n o ther words, the F- 4F Phantom,

t h e r e w a s o n l y two Aces produced by that
a i r c r a f t , w e w o uld like to see that smaller.
I n W o r l d W a r I I we had, by far, the most, so
t h e W o r l d W a r I I aircraft we think should be
b i g g e r a n d m o r e in the forefront, as an
example.
A n d a l s o on Obverse Number 1 the Army

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i s n o t p a r t o f - -it’s sort of a, how do I say
it, a misnomer?

Really, there were Aces in

t h e N a v y , t h e A ir Force, and the Marines, but
b a c k i n W o r l d W ar I and World War II the Aces
w e r e u n d e r t h e arm of the Army, so it was
c a l l e d t h e A r m y Air Service in World War I and
t h e A r m y A i r C o rps in World War II, but all
t h e A c e s a r e r e ally better known as Aces of
t h e A i r F o r c e , as opposed to the Army.
S o , a n y way, those are my general
comments.

I h a ve some more specific one for

l a t e r , t h a n k y o u.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
Wagner.

Thank you, Dr.

I ’ l l j ust--I hate to do this, but I

c a l l o u r a t t e n t ion to the fact that according
t o o u r a g e n d a w e have a half an hour to get
t h r o u g h t h i s p r ogram.

I think we need to take

t h e t i m e t h a t i t requires, but if we can be
e f f i c i e n t i n o u r comments, I think that will
be very helpful.
L e t ’ s g o through our culling exercise.
W e ’ l l s t a r t w i t h the obverses.

Is there

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i n t e r e s t i n N u m ber 1?
(Yeses.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Yes?

Number 2?

(Y e s e s . )
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Number 3?

U N I D E N T IFIED SPEAKER:
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Yes.

Number 4?

(Yeses.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Number 5?

( N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
aside.

Setting Number 5

N u m b e r 6?
( N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Setting that aside.

S o , w e h a v e r e m aining to focus our attention
o n t h e O b v e r s e Designs Number 1 through 4.
t h e r e v e r s e s , i s there interest in Number 1?
(Yeses.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Number 2?

( N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
aside.

Setting Number 2

N u m b e r 3?

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( N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
Number 4?

Setting 3 aside.

I ’ l l say yes.

Number 5?

U N I D E N T IFIED SPEAKER:
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Number 6?

U N I D E N T IFIED SPEAKER:
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Yes.

Yes.

Number 7?

(Yeses.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Number 8?

(Y e s e s . )
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Okay, we didn’t

a c h i e v e m u c h t h ere, folks.
M S . L A N NIN:

No, we didn’t.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

I will ask that we

s t i l l k e e p o u r comment tight.

I don’t believe

t h a t y o u ’ r e a l l going to vote for all of
t h o s e , s o l e t ’ s try to be as efficient as
p o s s i b l e s o w e can really focus on what
matters here.
S o , w i t h that, before we go to our
c o m m e n t p h a s e , are there any questions that
s h o u l d b e a s k e d now that bare more the

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technical side?

Heidi?

M S . W A S TWEET:

I’d like to ask about

t h e f a c e s o n O b verses 1 and 2, are any of
t h e s e f a c e s s p e cific people or are they
generic people?
M R . W E I NMAN:

No, they’re generic

faces.
M S . W A S TWEET:

What?

C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M S . W A S TWEET:

Go ahead.
Did we have a problem

w i t h d e p i c t i n g actual people; can you tell me
more about that?
M R . W E I NMAN:

Yes, typically because

i t h o n o r s a g r o up, it’s been our practice not
t o h o n o r s p e c i f ic individuals and it’s going
b a c k a n d y o u d o n’t want this to be a
C o n g r e s s i o n a l g old medal to individual people,
b u t r a t h e r t o t he group as a whole.

So we’ve

i n s t r u c t e d o u r artists to be generic when it
c o m e s t o d o i n g portrait.
M S . W A S TWEET:
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

That’s it.
Okay, are there other

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comments?

O k a y , we’ll go to our comment phase

a n d i n r e c o g n i t ion of our member on the phone,
M a r y , a r e y o u o n the line?
M S . L A N NIN:

Yes, I am.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

We’d like to start

o f f w i t h y o u r c omments, please.
M S . L A N NIN:

Okay, regarding obverses,

I t h i n k N u m b e r 1 is fairly clean to me.

I

g u e s s t h e d i f f e rentiation between the Army
a n d - - t h e g u y w h o spoke about it--can be
t o u c h e d u p , b u t I did like Number 1.

Number 1

i s i t f o r m e , w ith the possible second of
Number 4.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M S . L A N NIN:

Thank you, Mary.

Do you want me to go with

t h e r e v e r s e , G a ry, or just the obverses?
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Let’s go with both,

i f y o u ’ r e r e a d y , please?
M S . L A N NIN:

Yeah, I really liked

N u m b e r 1 , I t h o ught it was strong--for one
t h i n g i t s h o w e d the development of aircraft,
w h i c h I f o u n d v ery interesting.

The five

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s t a r s , I l i k e d it, I felt that it was very
balanced.

I t h ink that that would turn out to

be nice.
A n d s u r prisingly--I really surprised
m y s e l f a n d a c t u ally like Number 8, because you
r e m e m b e r e v e r y t hing we were talking about,
t h e y j u s t w a n t e d to have the Ace of Spades,
t h e A c e o f S p a d es, so I would like to commend
t h e a r t i s t t h a t did this for turning the eagle
into the Ace.

I just thought that that was

p r e t t y n i f t y , b ut I think we need to have
N u m b e r 8 b e c a u s e that does show the five
stars.
T h e o t h er interesting thing may be,
a n d w e c a n a l l discuss it--is it possible to
h a v e R e v e r s e N u mber 1 and an obverse?
R e v e r s e N u m b e r 8 as the reverse?

And

Getting away

f r o m p e o p l e t o t ally and just having symbols,
p l a n e s a n d o b v i ous (inaudible).

So that’s it

from here.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you, Mary.

I ’ l l r e c o g n i z e Tom.

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M R . U R A M:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

N u m b e r 1 a n d N u mber 2 and Number 3 are
p r o b a b l y m y t o p candidates for the obverse,
b u t I ’ m l e a n i n g more towards Number 2 simply
b e c a u s e o f w h a t the pairing might be for the
reverse.

A n d o nce again, the artists--both

s e r i e s t o d a y h a ve been just outstanding on
s o m e o f t h e a r t that we’ve had to look at
t o d a y a n d a t r i bute to the creativity and
t r y i n g t o r e c o g nize properly the art and the
h i s t o r y t h a t ’ s relevant here.
B u t I ’ m leaning more towards Number 2
a n d a s m u c h a s on the Reverse Number 1, in
l o o k i n g a t s o m e of the other reverses--and the
r e a s o n w h y I c h ose Numbers 4, 5 and 6 wasn’t
b e c a u s e o f - - t h e y’re basically all the same to
s o m e d e g r e e , b u t it seems like Number 6 has
m o r e m o v e m e n t i n it and what I like about it
v e r s u s N u m b e r 1 is that in Number 1, everyone
s e e m s t o b e i n d ependent, whereas the eagle
t e n d s t o u n i t e the whole reason for having the
d i f f e r e n t b r a n c hes.

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T h e e a g le tends to unite the whole
m i s s i o n s t h a t h ave occurred, so in the uniting
o f t h e d i f f e r e n t avenues of military service
here.

A n d I t h ink I’m leaning more towards

N u m b e r 6 , b e t w e en the three of those, but I am
i n t r i g u e d a l s o with Number 7 and Number 8 and
I ’ m g o i n g t o l i sten to some of my other
c o l l e a g u e s a s i t relates to that.

I think

t h a t ’ s e x t r e m e l y clever and I think that it’s
v e r y - - I d o n ’ t t hink clever might be the right
w o r d , b u t i t ’ s certainly artistic in the fact
t h a t i t s h o w s s trength and it shows
t o g e t h e r n e s s , a s well, similar to what I was
m e n t i o n i n g o n R everse Number 6.
S o , d e p ending on the planes, I’m
p r o b a b l y g o i n g to be looking, more or less, at
N u m b e r 6 a n d N u mber 8.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you, Tom.

We

go to Heidi.
M S . W A S TWEET:

Thank you.

This is a

v e r y d i f f i c u l t topic because it encompasses so

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m a n y d i f f e r e n t time periods and people and
e q u i p m e n t , a n d this is a prime example of why
t h i s C o m m i t t e e is so much in favor or
symbolism.

B e c ause when you get into detailed

r e a l i s m a n d y o u try to incorporate every
n u a n c e , t h e p r o blem that you get, as we’re
s e e i n g h e r e , i s there’s going to be some group
t h a t f e e l s e x c l uded because the design is so
specific.
A n d i t ’ s so specific that it’s
s p e c i f i c a l l y e x cludes somebody, inevitably.
I n O b v e r s e D e s i gn Number 1, for example, this
i s a b e a u t i f u l l y drawn design, but I keep
t h i n k i n g o v e r a nd over that these four faces
l o o k l i k e b r o t h ers.

I don’t see an variety of

i n d i v i d u a l i t y o r the different types of pilots
that we had.

T hey all look like they’re

r e l a t e d , t h e y ’ r e almost the same person.

And

t h e y ’ r e s o g e n e ralized and so generic that it
loses me.
I w o u l d have found this more
i n t e r e s t i n g i f these were specific pilots that

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s t o o d o u t a m o n g the Aces, but we have legal
r e a s o n s w h y w e can’t do that, so it’s
p r o b l e m a t i c t o show faces at all.

Going into

t h i s p r o j e c t I was really hoping to see an
i m a g e o f a c r o s shair because that depicts why
t h e s e p i l o t s s t ood out more than others
b e c a u s e o f t h e i r accuracy and their lethal
abilities.

S o I like this design because it

h a s t h e c r o s s h a irs and the plane coming at us
i n v o k e s d a n g e r , so I like this design.

It’s

t h e f a c e s t h a t lose me.
I n D e s i gn Number 2 I see more variety
i n t h e f a c e s , s o that attracts me and I like
t h a t t h e y ’ r e g a thered around an ace, whereas
i n D e s i g n 3 , t h ey’re gathered around an earth
a n d I t h i n k m o r e of astronauts, rather than
pilots.

S o I l ike Design Number 2, but again

t h e s p e c i f i c f a ces, I wonder when I look at
t h i s , a r e t h e s e real people?
portraits?

Are these

I f I were coming into this

u n k n o w i n g , t h a t would be the question that was
r a i s e d i n m y m i nd.

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S o t h a t brings me to Design Number 4.
S o h e r e w e h a v e a human element, but we don’t
s e e t h e f a c e , s o that solves the issue of
b e i n g s p e c i f i c people, but yet it still has
t h e h u m a n e l e m e nt.

I like the arrangement of

t h e p l a n e s , a s well.

There’s a lot of

i n f o r m a t i o n h e r e, but it’s well organized.
A g a i n , i t ’ s v e r y specific so we do run into
t h e d a n g e r o f e xcluding somebody somewhere and
t h a t ’ s j u s t h a r d to get away from when you’re
d e a l i n g w i t h s u ch realism.
I n o u r obverse choices we don’t have a
l o t o f s y m b o l i s m; we just have these very
s p e c i f i c d e s i g n s.

And they’re nice designs

a n d I ’ m t h i n k i n g again, always, how we pair up
w i t h t h e r e v e r s e.

So I like Design 4 with its

v a r i e t y o f p l a n es and its organization.
a l s o l i k e R e v e r se Number 1.
t h e s e d e s i g n s a re so similar.

And I

The problem is
We have a

v a r i e t y o f p l a n es shown in a very organized
a n d a p p e a l i n g f ashion, so I don’t think my
f a v o r i t e o b v e r s e would pair well with my

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f a v o r i t e r e v e r s e.
I d o n ’ t see this as being a problem in
t h e s i z e o f t h e planes because I don’t see
t h i s a s a n i m p o rtant symbolism, but rather a
p r o g r e s s i o n o f time.
S o t h i s brings me down to Designs
Number 7 and 8.

Let’s look at Number 7.

Here

w e d o h a v e t h e symbolism depicted in a very
c r e a t i v e a n d u n ique fashion and I like its
c r e a t i v i t y , i t s clarity, its simplicity, but
y e t i t ’ s a n a t t ractive design, so I’m really
d r a w n t o N u m b e r 7.
T h e p r o gression of Designs Number 4,
5 , a n d 6 , I h a v e an interest in those, but I
t h i n k t h e y ’ r e a little busy and they don’t
a t t r a c t m e a s m uch as 7.

So even though I

l i k e R e v e r s e N u mber 1 very much, it really
d e p e n d s o n w h a t we choose for the obverse, so
I ’ m l e a n i n g m o r e towards Number 7.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you, Heidi.

I ’ l l s t a r t o f f by saying that I completely
a g r e e w i t h H e i d i’s comments about a program

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l i k e t h i s h a v i n g so much to honor across time
a n d t h r o u g h m i l itary branches that we really
c a n ’ t g e t t o o w rapped up in precision in
t r y i n g t o r e c o g nize everybody because that’s
a n i m p o s s i b l e f eat.

And the more specific you

g o , t h e m o r e l i kely it is that then you’ve
m i s s e d s o m e t h i n g else more specific.
S o I t h ink it’s important to remember
t h a t t h i s i s a 3-inch pallet we’re talking
about here.

T h is is not a large canvas

p a i n t i n g o r p h o tograph where there’s plenty of
r o o m f o r e l e m e n ts.

You need something that is

s y m b o l i c , t h a t conveys the general sense of
w h a t ’ s b e i n g h o nored here, and I think we can
s t r i k e a s u c c e s sful balance in recognition
a c r o s s t i m e a n d military branches.
S o m y c omments, I’m going to preface
i t f i r s t w i t h m y preferences are dependent on
w h a t ’ s c h o s e f o r obverse and reverse.

This

m i g h t c h a n g e a n d this is going to be tricky
w h e n I t r y t o v ote.
S o , i f we can go to the obverse

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d e s i g n s , I l i k e both Obverse Numbers 1 and 2,
l e t ’ s s t a r t w i t h Number 1.
crosshairs.

I like the

I think that this is an

i n t e r e s t i n g p r e sentation of images.

It

r e p r e s e n t s h e r e the idea of time and those who
a c h i e v e d t h i s l evel of success as fighters for
o u r m i l i t a r y f o rce.

With all of the four wars

r e p r e s e n t e d a n d actually named the different
b r a n c h e s o f t h e military, but yet it’s still
k e p t i n a c l e a n presentation.
W e g o t o Number 2; I like this one a
lot.

A g a i n , w e have the presentation of time

w i t h t h e v a r i o u s wars being represented.

I

r e a l l y a m v e r y fond of the Ace of Spades
symbol here.

I f we were to go with this

o b v e r s e , t h e n I would want to scuttle Numbers
7 a n d 8 o n t h e reverse because then we’d be
d u p l i c a t i n g t h i s Ace of Spades idea.

So this

i s w h e r e i t k i n d of gets tricky, so if we end
u p w i t h N u m b e r s 7 and 8 on the reverse, then
I ’ m g o i n g t o g r avitate towards Number 1 for an
obverse.

S o t h ere may be a need for motions

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a f t e r w e a l l s e e how this all works out.
S o i f w e go to Number 3, I think this
o n e i s j u s t a n example of we’re just
c l u t t e r i n g i t u p.

I don’t think the image of

t h e g l o b e a d d s anything, but to add more
b u s y n e s s , I d o n ’t think the propeller really
i s n e c e s s a r y h e re in the middle of the Ace of
S p a d e s , s o I t h ink that Number 2 is much
cleaner.

S o i f you’re going to--obviously

t h i s i s t h e s a m e artist here, if we’re going
t o g o o n e o f t h ose I would go with Number 2.
N u m b e r 4 is nice.

I think this runs

t h e d a n g e r o f s ingling out World War II.
G o i n g b a c k t o m y comments about keeping it
g e n e r a l , I t h i n k there is room for recognizing
t h e a i r c r a f t s t hrough time, but I don’t know
i f t h a t ’ s e v e n completely necessary, depending
o n w h i c h o b v e r s e and reverse that we pick.
I f w e g o to the reverses now, at first
w h e n I s a w N u m b er 1 I was drawn to it, but
t h e n I g o t t o t hinking, who is this that we’re
honoring?

A n d Dr. Wagner in his presentation

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u s e d a w o r d t h a t kind of struck me,
“aggressive.”

These are men who were

a g g r e s s i v e a n d , yes, they had tenacity, they
w e r e c o u r a g e o u s men, but I think most of all
t h e y w e r e a g g r e ssive.

And so I look at Number

1 a n d I ’ m t h i n k ing, do these aircrafts-t h e y ’ r e a g g r e s s ive aircrafts, yes, but are
t h e y p r e s e n t e d in an aggressive way?

Because

t h e r e w e r e l o t s of pilots, lots of them who
d i d n ’ t e v e n c o m e close to five kills to be
Aces.
T h i s c o uld represent every pilot.

I

t h i n k , i f y o u ’ r e going to show the planes, it
n e e d s t o b e a n aggressive presentation, so I
w o n ’ t s u p p o r t N umber 1, but let’s go to Number
4.
I ’ l l s u bmit to you, if you want to
p r e s e n t t h e a i r crafts that represent the Aces,
t h i s i s i t , f o l ks.

The lightning bolts, the

e a g l e , w h i c h i n American medallic iconology
h a s l o n g s y m b o l ized defense, strength,
courage.

A l l o f those things represented

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h e r e , t h e A m e r i can eagle itself, of course,
o u r n a t i o n a l b i rd.

I think it’s arranged in a

v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g presentation.

This would be

a v e r y , v e r y a t tractive medal and it goes more
t o w a r d s t h a t a r t idea that I was talking
about.
A n d a g a in the military branches
s i g n i f i e d a b o v e , we’re going to have to look
a t w h a t o b v e r s e is selected, if this one were
s e l e c t e d , b u t I ’ll encourage my fellow members
t o p l e a s e g i v e this some consideration.

I

t h i n k t h i s c o u l d be an outstanding design.
I t h i n k Numbers 5 and 6 are just
v e r s i o n s o f N u m ber 4.

I think the artist got

i t r i g h t o n 4 , I think there are balance
i s s u e s w i t h 5 a nd 6.

They’re not quite as--I

d o n ’ t k n o w , t h e y just don’t strike me as well
as 4.

I s u p p o s e maybe it’s because, to me,

t h e e a g l e b e i n g larger in 4 is more important
i n t h e v a l u a b l e space that we have on 3
inches.

T h a t j ust gives it that extra punch.

A n d h e r e a g a i n , we’re talking about

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a g g r e s s i v e n e s s , that is kind of a defining
q u a l i t y o f t h e s e men.
I ’ m r e a lly taken with both Number 7
and Number 8.

I think taking the idea of the

A c e o f S p a d e s , making it into the eagle, with
a l l t h a t i t s y m bolizes, which I just
mentioned.

I t hink it’s fabulous.

I like the

b o l t s o f l i g h t n ing for the quick strike which,
o b v i o u s l y , i s s omething that these gentlemen
h a d t o m a s t e r t o achieve what they did.

So I

c a n s u p p o r t b o t h of those.
I ’ m l i s tening intently to my fellow
m e m b e r s i n t h e i r ideas about this before I
m a k e m y f i n a l d ecision.

So with that I’ll go

to Erik.
M R . J A N SEN:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

T h i s i s r e a l l y simple.

Obverse Number 4,

R e v e r s e N u m b e r 8.
N o w , t h e breakdown.

When I go to

O b v e r s e 1 , t h i s is going to be made or broken
by the sculpt.

If the sculpt is not really,

r e a l l y g o o d , t h is is going to come across as

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j u s t f l a t -o u t t oo busy.

And I tell you, if

y o u ’ v e g o t t h e crosshairs of an airplane
f l y i n g s t r a i g h t at you, I would argue that
y o u ’ r e i n y o u r own crosshairs.

So there’s

s o m e t h i n g w r o n g about the picture of a plane
f l y i n g s t r a i g h t at me in my crosshairs.
T h a t ’ s a p r o b l e m.
S o t h e y got the crosshairs wrong
there.

I d o l i ke the faces in Number 2,

N u m b e r 3 i s a b usified version of 2.

However,

y o u w a n t e x c i t i ng, you want aggression, you
take Number 4.

You take the pilot with the

o x y g e n m a s k o n , he has got one thing in mind
a n d t h a t i s , h e ’s going to be the only one
f l y i n g w h e n t h i s thing is over.

And I like

t h e m o d i f i c a t i o ns that came up later, getting
a l l f o u r h i s t o r ical archetypal frames in this.
I ’ d g o with Number 4 as the hand’s
d o w n a g g r e s s i o n , pictures of planes--it’s
a b o u t t h e g u y , it’s about the pilot, it’s
a b o u t h i s s u r v i val mechanism, his aggression.
I m e a n , t h e m a n has got his hands on the

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s t i c k s a n d h e i s going to take the guy down.
T h e t i t le is right across the top
A m e r i c a n F i g h t e r Aces, very strong, Number 4.
W h e n w e go to the reverse, I too liked
t h e e l e g a n c e , a nd kudos to the artist on
Design Number 1.

These are gorgeous.

H i s t o r i c a l a c c o unting of the advancements of
m i l i t a r y a i r f r a mes, however, I’m not sure this
m e d a l i s a b o u t elegance and I got my airplanes
o n t h e O b v e r s e 4.

So where as I like the art

i n N u m b e r 1 , I can’t put it on the reverse,
t e a m e d w i t h O b v erse 4.
I t h i n k Numbers 4, 5, and 6 are just
p l a i n f l a t -o u t too busy.

I look at that and

t h e f i r s t t h i n g I see is clutter, clutter,
c l u t t e r , c l u t t e r.

I can’t sort it out and

m a y b e t h e s c u l p tor could fix that for me, but
t h a t m a y b e t o o big of a challenge.
N o w , w h en I go to Numbers 7 and 8,
w h e n w e g o t o a big 3- inch medal on this
t h i n g , w e ’ v e g o t a relatively big palette, as
this goes.

A n d 7 more than 8, although I’m

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g o i n g t o l e a n i nto either/or here, Number 7
u s e s n e g a t i v e s pace bled off the edge very
e f f e c t i v e l y o n a large medallic piece here.

I

l o v e t h e s p a d e , the elegance of the eagle,
w e ’ v e s a i d t h a t before.
here.

The lightning is

M y q u e s t ion would be, the difference

b e t w e e n t h e s e t wo in my mind is, do you want
t h e s p a d e c e n t e red?

If you do, because you

e y e w a n t s i t c e ntered, go with Number 7.
I f y o u don’t and you want a little
m o r e o f a d i s t r action--look at it, it disturbs
y o u a l i t t l e b i t, think about it, it really
i n v i t e s t h e e y e and the mind to investigate
t h i s i d e a , g o w ith Number 8 because it’s off
balance.

H o w e v er, I like the way the text is

d i s p e r s e d a c r o s s the palette in 7; Courage,
T e n a c i t y , a n d D uty, perhaps even pumped up
j u s t a l i t t l e b it larger in font size then
they are there.
W e l o s t a star.
M S . S T A FFORD:

In this design the

s t a r s a r e n ’ t m e ant to represent the four

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conflicts.
M R . J A N SEN:
off of this one.

Stars might even be taken

We have stars on the obverse

i n m y O b v e r s e 4 , wrapped around the spade at
the very bottom.
soft.

They’re subtle, they’re

S t a r s a r e not a big deal to me in this,

I ’ d p r o b a b l y p r efer 7, but it’s Obverse 4
t e a m e d w i t h s o m e version of Numbers 7 or 8, in
my book.

I t ’ s pretty simple.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you, Erik.

W e ’ l l g o t o H e r man?
D R . V I O LA:

Thank you, Chairman.

O k a y , w e l l , I r eally like a lot of this
a r t w o r k , b u t I kind of lean towards Mary.

I

d o n ’ t k n o w i f w e’ve ever done this before here
w h e r e y o u h a v e the obverse and reverse
s w i t c h e d l i k e t his, but I think on the
o b v e r s e s , I j u s t don’t like all of those faces
a n d t h e y a l l l o ok so generic and let’s face
i t , w e d o n ’ t s e e any of the diversity, no
T u s k e g e e A i r m e n or anything like that.

I

d o n ’ t k n o w i f a ny of them ever became an Ace,

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b u t - - s o I ’ d r a t her do away with any of these
faces.
S o N u m b er 4 could work for me, but I
w o u l d r e a l l y t h ink I would prefer that on the
r e v e r s e , N u m b e r 1 is the obverse, but change
s o m e o f t h e t e r minology.

And maybe reduce the

s i z e o f t h a t V i etnam aircraft because-U N I D E N T IFIED SPEAKER:
D R . V I O LA:

Got it.

--it does make it look

l i k e t h e y w e r e dominant, when they really only
had two Aces.

And I love Numbers 7 and 8.

A n d I r e a l l y t h ink what I would prefer is to
s e e 7 d r o p p i n g those stars, because we don’t
r e a l l y n e e d i t and you’ve already got the Aces
there.

A n d I l ike the idea of having the Act

o f C o n g r e s s a n d the date because as a
h i s t o r i a n - - h i s t orians always love dates.

And

s o w e n o w c a n d etermine, looking at this, we
d i d t h i s t o o l a te.

We should have done it

r e a l l y r i g h t a f ter World War II.
A n d c h a nge some of the wording.

I

m e a n , “ C o u r a g e ” --I think “Tenacity” just isn’t

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the right word.

I’d love to see fearlessness,

b u t o f c o u r s e t hat’s too long.

So drop those

s t a r s a n d I w o u ld vote for making Number 7 the
r e v e r s e a n d N u m ber 1 of the reverses, I would
m a k e t h a t t h e o bverse.

And thank you.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you, Herman.

W e ’ l l g o t o M i c hael.
M R . M O R AN:

My first choice on the

o b v e r s e i s N u m b er 2.

I agree with what’s been

s a i d a b o u t N u m b er 3, the globe just clutters
it.

A n d I h a v e questions on Number 3 because

t h e f i r s t t h i n g that popped into my mind when
I l o o k e d a t t h i s was, that’s a Star Wars
c h a r a c t e r , a n d I can’t get rid of that.

I

k n o w i t ’ s n o t , but I just can’t lose it.
T u r n i n g to the reverse, I’m with
e v e r y b o d y - - w e l l , not everybody, most everybody
i n t e r m s o f N u m ber 7.

I think it’s an

e f f e c t i v e u s e o f the eagle, but again you get
i n t o t r o u b l e h e re because you’ve got an Ace
a n d y o u g o t o N umber 2 on the obverse--and you
d o n ’ t h a v e t o d o that, April--you’ve got a

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s p a d e t h e r e , t o o.

So if Michael Bugeja were

h e r e , h e ’ d b e g oing nuts over this duplication
of iconography.
T h e s t a rs are superfluous, they need
to go.

S o , t h a t’s where I am on these and I

w o u l d l i k e t o s uggest, as I sit here and think
a b o u t t h i s , t h a t if I were to not get my
c h o i c e o n t h e o bverse, it would dictate what I
c h o s e o n t h e r e verse.

I think it would be

m u c h m o r e e f f e c tive for this Committee to
c h o o s e t h e o b v e rse and then go back and choose
t h e r e v e r s e , a f ter the obverse is chosen.

I

t h i n k i t w o u l d save us a lot of confusion, in
t e r m s o f m o t i o n s after the fact.
A n d I w ould suggest we break the
voting up.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you, Michael.

Go to Robert.
M R . H O G E:

Thank you, Gary.

I think

t h a t I w o u l d p r obably have to select Obverse
N u m b e r 4 a s m y preference of these, although I
t h i n k i t ’ s a l i ttle bit busy and confusing.

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M a y b e i t i s a S tar Wars character, but-M R . M O R AN:
M R . H O G E:

Darth Vader.
Yeah.

But I would prefer

n o t t o h a v e t h e se exact images of people’s
f a c e s s h o w i n g l ike that.

They do look like

i n d i v i d u a l s a n d we don’t want them as
individuals.
F o r t h e reverse, I would tend to
p r e f e r N u m b e r 7 , as well, but again without
t h e f o u r s t a r s , probably.

I don’t think

t h e y ’ r e n e c e s s a rily very important.

I agree

t h a t N u m b e r s 4 , 5, and 6 seem to be a little
bit too busy.
N u m b e r 1 is attractive, but again the
p r o p o r t i o n s o f the planes and the selection of
t h e p l a n e s s e e m to be a bit arbitrary.
P e r h a p s n o t e x a ctly what we would want.
T h i s i s a difficult kind of decision
a n d I w o u l d b e curious to see what people do
t r y i n g t o p a i r up obverses and reverses
b e c a u s e I s e e a lot of good qualities and
c o m p l e x i t i e s i n the selections for what the

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e l e m e n t s w o u l d be on each one and how it would
c o u n t e r p o i s e a n d balance each other.

Thank

you.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you, Robert.

O k a y , I b e l i e v e that brings us to the end of
our comments.
M S . W A S TWEET:

I have a follow- up

question.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

And if there are

f o l l o w -u p s , l e t ’s have those now.
M S . W A S TWEET:

Because of your

c o m m e n t s , G a r y , I’m looking again at Reverse
Number 4.

M y i nitial reaction is that this

d e s i g n w a s t o o busy, but in revisiting it and
l o o k i n g a t i t a gain I think that it could
b e c o m e a l o t l e ss busy if we simply take off
t h e l e t t e r i n g a nd give it a little breathing
space.
A n d t h i s does, I think, show the
a g g r e s s i v e n e s s that Dr. Wagner was talking
a b o u t , b u t t o p ut further complication in
t h i s , t h e e a g l e is very similar to the one

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t h a t w e l o o k e d at for the Doolittle Raiders.
S o I s u g g e s t t h at we look at the voting on the
D o o l i t t l e t o s e e if there’s a danger of
r e p l i c a t i n g t h a t same eagle.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
be a problem.

Okay, that’s going to

Any other comments?

M i k e s u ggested that we dispense with
o u r n o r m a l p r o c ess in the interest of time and
s t a y i n g t r u e t o our process, I’m going to ask
t h e m e m b e r s t o keep with the process and what
w e c a n d o t h e n is, once we get those scores,
w e o b v i o u s l y a r e going to have to take a look
a t o b v e r s e / r e v e rse and if we matched them
right.
S o a t t hat point, I suggest we follow
o u r t y p i c a l m o d e of action and take whatever
m o t i o n s w e n e e d to make to sure we get a good
pairing.

S o , w ith that I want to go back to

D r . W a g n e r a n d ask him if he has any final
c o m m e n t s b e f o r e we wrap this up.
D R . W A G NER:

Yeah, thank you.

Let’s

s e e , a s I m e n t i oned, my preference is Obverse

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N u m b e r 1 w i t h s ome modification to the phrase
at the bottom.

And one of the things that I

l i k e , i f I m a y say, about Number 2 is the
faces.

I t h i n k that they represent the

y o u n g n e s s o f t h e World War I Aces, who were
v e r y y o u n g -- n o t to say that there weren’t 18y e a r -o l d s f l y i n g in World War II, but they
t e n d e d t o b e v e ry young in World War I.
I l i k e the man that represents World
W a r I I ; h e l o o k s like a tough minded Marine
F i g h t e r A c e f r o m Guadalcanal.

You know, the

K o r e a n W a r A c e looks to the future and the
s a m e t h i n g , I t hink, with the Vietnam Ace
w h e r e t h e y h a d to think fast in the jet age.
S o I t h i n k t h o s e faces to me say something.
A n d w i t h the reverse, I like Reverse
N u m b e r 1 b e c a u s e of the planes.

Just that I

t h i n k t h a t t h e r e might need to be a
m o d i f i c a t i o n o f the way these planes are
o r i e n t e d a n d , a gain, highlight the--include
t h e M a r i n e s a n d the Navy.
A n d t h e n my other comment about Design

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N u m b e r 4 i s t h a t in World War I they didn’t
u s e t h i s t y p e - - there were over 100 Aces in
W o r l d W a r I , n o ne of them wore this type of
flight gear.

S o I just want to make that a

c o m m e n t f o r O b v erse Number 4.
A n d a s far as some of the others, to
m e t h e y ’ r e v e r y busy.

I think we heard that,

b u t I t h i n k t h e y’re a little bit too
futuristic.
Reverse 1.

T h at’s why I like the planes in
T h a nk you.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you.

Okay, I’d

l i k e t o a s k m e m bers, if you haven’t already,
f i l l o u t y o u r s coring sheet and get that to
Erik and-M R . J A N SEN:

Thank you, Mary, for her

votes.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
hers.

Yes, okay, we have

O k a y , s o while we’re collecting those

u p , I d o h a v e t he balloting results for Tokyo
R a i d e r s , s o f o r those of you who want to keep
s c o r e , h e r e t h e y are.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

For the Obverse for

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t h e R a i d e r s , D e sign Number 1 received zero, 1A
r e c e i v e d z e r o , Design 2 received 17 and by
t h a t n u m b e r w o u ld be our indicated
r e c o m m e n d a t i o n , as a Committee.

Number 3

r e c e i v e d 4 , N u m ber 4 received 6, Number 5
r e c e i v e d z e r o , and Design Number 6 received 14
a n d i s t h e r u n n er up.
A n d I w ould just mention that by
C o m m i t t e e r u l e , given the number of Committee
m e m b e r s h e r e , w e need to get to a score
t h r e s h o l d o f 1 3 for a recommendation to
resolve.
G o i n g o n to the other designs, Numbers
7 a n d 8 w e r e b o th zero, Number 9 received 3,
a n d a l l t h e o t h ers Numbers 10 through 14,
received zero.
O n t h e reverses, Design Numbers 1 and
2 a n d 3 r e c e i v e d zero, Design 4 received 12,
D e s i g n s 5 t h r o u gh 7 were all zero, Design
N u m b e r 8 r e c e i v ed 20, and that is our
r e c o m m e n d a t i o n , on that basis.

And then

D e s i g n 9 r e c e i v ed zero.

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A n d f o r those of you not familiar with
o u r p r o c e s s , I should have noted that each
m e m b e r h a s u p t o three votes or points to cast
i n r e g a r d t o a n y design.

You can cast zero,

1 , 2 , o r 3 f o r any design.

And with that in

m i n d , w i t h 3 b e ing the maximum, the total
p o s s i b l e s c o r e with 8 members participating is
24.

S o t o g i v e you some frame of reference,

w h e n I s a y t h a t Reverse 8 received 20, that’s
a f a i r l y s t r o n g indication--a pretty high
l e v e l o f s u p p o r t from the Committee, which is
w h y w e d o i t t h at way.

Our balloting process

m e a s u r e s i n t e n s ity.
S o a t t his point, Erik is busy putty
t o g e t h e r t h e s c oring for the Fighter Aces.

I

w a n t t o a s k p e o ple to keep in mind the time.
I ’ m g o i n g t o g i ve us a five minute recess, but
t h e n w e d o n e e d to get in the room to announce
t h e s c o r e s f o r the Aces, but then also to have
o u r t h e m a t i c d i scussions that now appear for
t h e b a l a n c e o f our agenda.
A n d I w ant everyone to be mindful that

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t h e r e a r e m e m b e rs that have to take off
i m m e d i a t e l y a t 1:00 to get home tonight, and
I’m one of them.

So we’re going to need to

k e e p t o o u r s c h edule in the thematic
d i s c u s s i o n , b u t we are in recess for five
m i n u t e s , a n d p l ease be timely in getting back
to the meeting.
T h a n k y ou, we’re recessed.
( R e c e s s .)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
record.

We are back on the

I h a v e the results for the American

Fighter Aces.

For those of you who are

k e e p i n g t r a c k , design number one received six.
D e s i g n n u m b e r t wo received 14, and is the
C o m m i t t e e ’ s r e c ommendation.
t h r e e r e c e i v e d two points.

Design number
Four received 12.

F i v e a n d s i x r e ceived zero.
M o v i n g to the reverse for the Aces,
d e s i g n n u m b e r o ne received six.
were zero.

F o u r received seven.

were zero each.

Two and three
Five and six

Seven received 15, and is the

C o m m i t t e e ’ s r e c ommendation.

Design eight

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received seven.
I w i l l let those sink in for a moment,
a n d m e a n w h i l e , we get to go back to our
d i s c u s s i o n o n t he Doolittle Raiders.

If there

a r e a n y m o t i o n s as follow- ups, I would ask for
a n y o f t h o s e m o tions at this time.
M R . M O R AN:

Mr. Chair, I feel like

h a v i n g s e e n t h e voting on the reverse, that we
n e e d t o t a k e a n other look at the obverse.

The

v o t i n g w a s c l o s e between number two and number
six.

I t h i n k g iven the reverse that is the

c h o i c e o f t h e C ommittee number six is a better
o b v e r s e a n d m a k es a better, more compatible
medal.

T h e r e f o re, I move that the Committee

c o n s i d e r n u m b e r six as the obverse.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Okay.

Is there a

s e c o n d t o t h a t motion?
M R . U R A M:

Second.

M R . J A N SEN:

Second.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

It is moved and

s e c o n d e d t o s h i ft our recommendation to design
s i x r a t h e r t h a n two.

Is there any discussion?

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M S . W A S TWEET:

What was the vote?

C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M S . W A S TWEET:

What’s that?
What was the voting?

W h a t w e r e t h e s cores?
M R . M O R AN:

It was 14, Heidi, on

n u m b e r s i x , a n d it was-C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M R . M O R AN:

Seventeen on two.

Sixteen on number two.

M R . J A N SEN:

That is against the 13 to

s e l e c t , s o t h e y both beat the threshold but
d e s i g n t w o b y m ore.
M S . W A S TWEET:

Fourteen or 16?

C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M S . W A S TWEET:

17/14.
It’s a three point

spread.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Okay.

If everyone

u n d e r s t a n d s t h e motion, I’m calling the
question.

A l l those in favor of the motion--

M R . J A N SEN:

Just a moment.

i n t e r n a l i z e t h i s thing.
versus six.

I want to

So, this is two

T h e vote is to change the vote

f r o m a s e l e c t i o n of number two to move it to

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s e l e c t i o n o f n u mber six?
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M R . J A N SEN:

Correct.

So, a “yes” vote means

y o u w a n t t o o v e rride the common vote and move
t o s i x a s t h e o bverse recommendation?
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M R . U R A M:

Correct.

Can we also see the reverse

t h a t w a s c h o s e n so that we understand what was
chosen?
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Yes, let’s go back to

two, please.
M S . S U L LIVAN:

What was the number,

t h e r e v e r s e , r e commended reverse?
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

The reverse is eight.

W e ’ r e m o v i n g t o obverse two to take another
look at that.

There we go.

c u r r e n t r e c o m m e ndation.
s w i t c h t h a t t o six.

That’s the

The motion is to

Go to six, please.

Is

everyone clear?
A l l t h o se in favor, raise your hand.
( S h o w o f hands.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Four.

All those

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o p p o s e d , p l e a s e raise your hand.
( S h o w o f hands.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M S . L A N NIN:

Mary?

I want to keep number

two.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

You’re voting no, so

w e h a v e a 4 -4 t ie, the motion fails.
motions?

Other

Heidi?
M S . W A S TWEET:

On obverse two, I make

a m o t i o n t o a d d the super structure for
a c c u r a c y o n t h e carrier, at the discretion of
t h e A r t D e p a r t m ent.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Did you want to tell

why?
M S . W A S TWEET:

The liaison in our

r e c e s s t o l d m e that the Japanese carriers did
n o t h a v e a s u p e r structure, so that’s a clear
i d e n t i f y i n g d i s tinction between the two, so to
m a k e o u r s y m b o l s very clear, I believe that
should be added.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

The question is do we

w a n t i t t o a p p e ar that the American aircraft

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a r e l a u n c h i n g f rom a Japanese carrier or
American.
M R . J A N SEN:

Question, do you also

w a n t t o c h a n g e the perspective, that is the
s i z e o f t h e c a r rier versus the airplanes?
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

That’s not the

motion.
M R . J A N SEN:

I understand.

M S . W A S TWEET:

That would be separate.

I l i k e t h e p r o p ortion as it is.
M R . J A N SEN:

The motion stands only to

a d d t h e s u p e r s tructure on the carrier on the
d e c k a t t h e d i s cretion of the Art staff of the
Mint.
M S . W A S TWEET:

Correct.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Is there a second?

M R . J A N SEN:

Second.

M S . L A N NIN:

I’ll second.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Mary Lannin gets the

second.
M S . L A N NIN:

All the way from Vienna.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

It’s moved and

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seconded.

A l l those in favor, please raise

your hand.
( S h o w o f hands.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Mary, what did you

say?
M S . L A N NIN:

I said “aye.”

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Okay.

Seven.

All

those opposed?
(N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M R . M O R AN:

Here.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:
Motion carries.

Abstain?

One abstention.

Heidi, do you have another

one?
M S . W A S TWEET:

I do.

O n t h e reverse, eight is our
selection.

A l s o, in my discussion with the

l i a i s o n d u r i n g our recess, he indicated they
w o u l d p r e f e r i n stead of calling out the
s q u a d r o n s o n t h e rim to have their slogan
t h e r e , t h e “ T o u jours Au Danger.”

I would move

t o - - I d o n ’ t k n o w if we should specify the

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l e t t e r i n g o r l e ave that open.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Would your motion be

t o r e p l a c e t h e identification of the units
with the slogan?
M S . W A S TWEET:
s l o g a n s , a c t u a l ly.

Yes.

I have two

“First Strike” and

“ T o u j o u r s A u D a nger.”

Should I make two

motions or one?
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

If you could clarify

i t i n o n e m o t i o n, it might help.
M S . W A S TWEET:
I’ll clarify.

Okay.

In one motion,

The desired lettering changes--

o n t h e o b v e r s e , substitute “First Strike” with
the date.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M S . W A S TWEET:

Obverse two.
Move “First Strike” to

t h e r e v e r s e a l o ng with the slogan “Toujours Au
D a n g e r , ” i n s t e a d of the squadrons.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

I’m going to let our

m o t i o n r e c o r d e r catch up.
M R . J A N SEN:
it to the folks.

I got it.

You describe

Restate it, and I’ll get it.

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C H A I R M A N MARKS:

State it one more

t i m e a n d w e ’ r e going to vote.
M S . W A S TWEET:

On obverse two, replace

“ F i r s t S t r i k e ” back and replace it with the
d a t e “ A p r i l 1 8 , 1942.”

Then take that “First

S t r i k e ” l e t t e r i ng and move it to reverse
e i g h t , a l o n g w i th the slogan “Toujours Au
D a n g e r , ” i n s t e a d of the squadron names.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
understand that?

Okay.

Does everyone

Robert, did you have a

question?
M R . H O G E:

If we were to do that,

m i g h t w e n o t w a nt to include the date, April
18-C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Her motion does

i n c l u d e p u t t i n g the date on the obverse.
M R . H O G E:

Okay.

M S . W A S TWEET:

Again, this was from my

c o n v e r s a t i o n w i th the liaison.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
all that?

Mary, did you catch

I ’ m not sure Mary is there.

Okay.

W e ’ r e g o i n g t o go ahead and vote on this.

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t h o s e i n f a v o r , please raise your hand.
( S h o w o f hands.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
h e r e i n t h e r o o m.

It looks unanimous

Mary, are you there?

(N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

The motion carries 7-

0.
M R . J A N SEN:

With one abstention.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:
a s a n a b s t e n t i o n.
it.

Yes, just record her

I don’t know how else to do

S h e ’ s n o t voting.

Okay.

Other motions?

(N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
t o A m e r i c a n F i g hter Aces.

Okay.

That takes us

In light of our

r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s for obverse two and reverse
s e v e n , a r e t h e r e motions to be made?
M R . J A N SEN:

I’m sorry.

Who was the

s e c o n d o n t h a t motion by Heidi just now?
D R . V I O LA:
M R . J A N SEN:

I am happy to.
I will give that to Dr.

Viola.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Heidi, do you have a

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motion?
M S . W A S TWEET:

I would suggest on

o b v e r s e t w o t h a t we simply remove the Ace in
t h e m i d d l e s i n c e we have a large Ace on our
s e l e c t e d r e v e r s e.
M R . J A N SEN:

The Spade symbol?

C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M S . W A S TWEET:

The Spade; yes.
Spade symbol, yes.

T h a t w o u l d r e d u ce the repetitiveness and also
r e d u c e s c l u t t e r on the obverse.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M R . J A N SEN:

Is there a second?

Second.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Moved and seconded to

r e m o v e t h e A c e of Spades from the obverse in
l i g h t o f t h e C o mmittee’s recommendation for
r e v e r s e n u m b e r seven.

Does everyone

u n d e r s t a n d t h e motion?
A l l t h o se in favor, please raise your
hand.
( S h o w o f hands.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
room.

I see six in the

M a r y , a r e you on the line?

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( N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

All opposed?

( S h o w o f hands.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
6- 1 .

One.

T h e m o t i o n carries.

The motion is

Are there other

motions?
M S . W A S TWEET:
of wording.

We have a duplication

W e have “Courage, Tenacity, and

D u t y A b o v e A l l ” on the obverse and we have
“ C o u r a g e , T e n a c ity, Duty” on the reverse as
well.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

I would propose this

i s a n o p p o r t u n i ty just to simplify and remove
o n e o f t h o s e i n favor of the other, and just
g i v e u s s o m e m o re negative space.

I don’t

t h i n k t h a t h a r m s anything.
M R . J A N SEN:

Yes.

M S . W A S TWEET:

I would suggest

r e m o v i n g i t f r o m the obverse.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M S . W A S TWEET:

Is that a motion?
I will make that a

motion.

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M R . M O R AN:

Second.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

It has been moved and

s e c o n d e d t o r e m ove the inscription “Courage,
T e n a c i t y , a n d D uty Above All” from the
obverse.

H e i d i , just to clarify, there’s a

d i f f e r e n c e w i t h how that’s presented.

It’s

n o t e x a c t l y t h e same words for the inscription
on the reverse.

Are you proposing just to

keep it as is?
M S . W A S TWEET:

I am.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:
the motion?

Do we all understand

A l l those in favor, please raise

your hand.
( S h o w o f hands.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
room.

It’s unanimous in the

M a r y , a r e you on the line?
(N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

I will declare that

s e v e n i n f a v o r , one abstention.

The motion

passes.
M S . W A S TWEET:

He got a message from

h e r s a y i n g s h e votes for the motion.

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C H A I R M A N MARKS:

She does; okay.

U n a n i m o u s v o t e , 8-0.
A r e t h e re any other motions?
M R . M O R AN:

Gary, I have one.

I’d

l i k e t o g o b a c k to reverse seven and move we
r e m o v e t h e f o u r stars.

I think they are

superfluous.
D R . V I O LA:

I second.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M R . J A N SEN:

Good catch.

Wait a second.

This is

o n t h e F i g h t e r Aces?
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Fighter Aces.

There

a r e f o u r s t a r s rather than the five.
M R . M O R AN:

They were put there to

r e p r e s e n t t h e f our conflicts, but four pilots
a r e o n t h e f r o n t, enough is enough.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

The motion is to

e l i m i n a t e t h e f our stars on reverse seven for
the Aces.

A l l those in favor, please raise

your hand.
M S . W A S TWEET:
first.

I have a question

I ’ d l i k e the liaison to weigh in with

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his opinion.
D R . W A GNER:

On the four stars?

M S . W A S TWEET:
D R . W A GNER:

Yes.
Yeah, I think there would

b e a l o t o f c o n fusion when one looks at the
f o u r s t a r s , f o u r victories would be needed to
b e a n A c e a s o p posed to five.

That would be

t h e f i r s t i m p r e ssion.
M S . W A S TWEET:

Thank you.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:
confused.

Good point.

I was

A l l those in favor, raise your

hand.
(S h o w o f hands.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
room.

It’s unanimous in the

M a r y , a r e you on the line?
( N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Until further notice,

w e w i l l r e c o r d that as 7 ayes, one abstention,
a n d t h e m o t i o n carries.

The motion was by

Michael?
M R . M O R AN:

I made it and Herman

seconded.

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C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you.

Are there

other motions?
M S . S T A FFORD:

We have a question

r e g a r d i n g t h e i nscriptions.

Originally

“ C o u r a g e , A g g r e ssiveness, and Duty Above All”
w a s s u g g e s t e d b y the liaison, and then on
s e c o n d t h o u g h t , “aggressiveness” seemed as if
i t w e r e n o t e x a ctly the right word, and I
b e l i e v e D r . W a g ner is also still unhappy with
“tenacity.”
I d o n ’ t know if there is a
r e c o m m e n d a t i o n from anyone on the Committee
a b o u t w h e t h e r “ aggressiveness” suits or if
t h e r e s h o u l d b e another word or phrase
employed.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Let’s give a couple

o f m i n u t e s t o t hat, if we have any thoughts
about wording.
M R . M O R AN:

I think there is certainly

r o o m o n t h e r e v erse for changes in the
wording.

I d o n ’t think this Committee is

p a r t i c u l a r l y w e ll equipped to deal with it,

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a n d I t h i n k w e should leave it up to The Mint
t o a d d r e s s t h a t issue.
M S . W A S TWEET:
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

I agree.
I’m not sure we would

h a v e m u c h t o l e nd to this.

Personally, I’m

s a t i s f i e d w i t h the word “tenacity.”

We’re

g o i n g t o l e a v e that to The Mint at this point.
M S . S T A FFORD:

We can always go back

t o t h e f i n d i n g s in the legislation.

Thank

you.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

We are concluded with

b o t h o f o u r v i s ual reviews today.

Again, I

w a n t t o t h a n k t he liaisons for being here
t o d a y , f o r t h e knowledge and reports you gave
to us.

I ’ m l o o king forward to seeing your

m e d a l s w h e n t h e y are produced.

I’m sure that

w i t h a l l t h e a r t here, I don’t think you can
g o w r o n g , w h e t h er you go with what we
s u g g e s t e d o r p e rhaps where it differs with you
o r e v e n w i t h w h at the CFA comes up with.

I

t h i n k w e a r e i n a good position to have some
b e a u t i f u l m e d a l s.

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W i t h t h at, thank you very much.
D R . W A G NER:

Thank you all very much.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

All right.

We have

n o w a n h o u r t o go through our two design
c o n c e p t d i s c u s s ions.

The first one is the

M a r k T w a i n C o m m emorative Coin Program.

April,

i s t h e r e a r e p o rt?
M S . S T A FFORD:

There is.

Can I ask if

C i n d y L o v e l l i s on the line?
M S . L O V ELL:

Yes, I am.

M S . S T A FFORD:

Thank you.

We will get

t o y o u i n j u s t one moment.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Before we move on,

I ’ m g o i n g t o k i nd of put an idea in place
h e r e , t h a t b y 1 2:30, I want everyone to be
f o c u s e d o n w r a p ping up this discussion.

Let’s

m a k e t h e b e s t u se of our time for the next 30
minutes.

G o a h ead.
M S . S T A FFORD:

It’s Public Law 112- 201

t h a t a u t h o r i z e s the Secretary of the Treasury
t o m i n t a n d i s s ue five dollar gold and silver
d o l l a r c o i n s i n commemoration of Mark Twain.

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T h e d e s i g n o f t he coins shall be emblematic of
t h e l i f e a n d l e gacy of Mark Twain.
S a m u e l Langhorne Clemens was born on
N o v e m b e r 3 0 , 1 8 35 in Florida, Missouri, the
s i x t h o f s e v e n children.

Halley’s Comet was

v i s i b l e a n d h i s mother predicted greatness for
him.

A t t h e a g e of four, Clemens and his

f a m i l y m o v e d t o the small frontier town of
H a n n i b a l , M i s s o uri on the banks of the
M i s s i s s i p p i R i v er.
A f t e r h is father died when he was 11,
C l e m e n s b e g a n w ork as a typesetter, the first
o f m a n y j o b s h e would hold during his
lifetime.

C l e m ens worked as a newspaper

w r i t e r , r i v e r b o at pilot, and silver prospector
b e f o r e h i s f i r s t big break with the
p u b l i c a t i o n o f a short story, “Jim Smiley and
H i s J u m p i n g F r o g.”
H a v i n g lived all over the country,
C l e m e n s a n d h i s family settled in Hartford,
C o n n e c t i c u t i n 1870 where he completed some of
h i s m o s t f a m o u s books, including “The

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A d v e n t u r e s o f T om Sawyer,” “A Connecticut
Y a n k e e i n K i n g Arthur’s Court,” and
“ A d v e n t u r e s o f Huckleberry Finn.”
F r o m 1 8 91 until 1900, Clemens and his
f a m i l y t r a v e l e d the world and witnessing the
e x p l o i t a t i o n o f weaker governments by European
p o w e r s w r o t e h i s book “Following the Equator.”
H i s w o r k turned dark and began to
f o c u s o n h u m a n greed and cruelty.

Many of the

w o r k s h e w r o t e during this time, however, were
n o t p u b l i s h e d d uring his lifetime.
I n 1 9 1 0 at the age of 74, Clemens died
w i t h H a l l e y ’ s C omet once again visible in the
sky.

L i k e a n y good journalist, Samuel

C l e m e n s , b e t t e r known as Mark Twain, spent his
l i f e o b s e r v i n g and reporting on his
surroundings.

In his writings he provided

i m a g e s o f t h e r omantic, the real, the
s t r e n g t h s a n d w eaknesses of a rapidly changing
world.
B y e x a m ining his life and his works,
w e c a n r e a d i n t o the past, piecing together

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v a r i o u s e v e n t s of the era and the responses to
them.

W e c a n d elve into the American mindset

o f t h e l a t e 1 9 t h Century and make our own
o b s e r v a t i o n s o f history, discover new
c o n n e c t i o n s , c r eate new inferences, and gain
b e t t e r i n s i g h t s into the time period and the
p e o p l e w h o l i v e d in it.
A s T w a i n wrote, “Supposing is good,
b u t f i n d i n g o u t is better.”
I n i t i a l conversations with the liaison
i n d i c a t e s a n i n terest in using the gold and
s i l v e r c o i n s t o depict Mark Twain’s life and
w o r k s , b u t n o t necessarily divided between the
c o i n s i n a n y p a rticular way.
S o m e c o ncepts for the two categories
a r e i n c l u d e d i n the

Committee’s information

t h a t w a s p r o v i d ed earlier, and we have with us
C i n d y L o v e l l , E xecutive Director for the Mark
T w a i n H o u s e a n d Museum in Hartford,
Connecticut.

S he is our liaison for this

p r o g r a m a n d o n the phone with us today to
d i s c u s s p o s s i b l e design themes.

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M s . L o v ell, would you care to say a
few words?
M S . L O V ELL:
opportunity.

Thank you for the

I would just welcome your

q u e s t i o n s t h a t you have of me, and I’ll just
listen.
M S . S T A FFORD:

Thank you.

Mr.

Chairman?
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
report, April.
discussion.

Thank you for the

With that, we will go to our

I ’ m not going to start off with

m y c o m m e n t s f i r st.

I’ll just suggest this, in

o t h e r c o i n p r o g rams we have had where we have
h a d m u l t i p l e c o ins, in this case a gold and a
s i l v e r , u p t o t his point, we have received
p o r t f o l i o ’ s t h a t attempt to divide obverse and
r e v e r s e , a n d w e ended up mixing that up and
a d d i n g s o m e c o m plexity to the consideration.
N o t t h a t you would do this
n e c e s s a r i l y , b u t I’d ask you to give some
c o n s i d e r a t i o n t o just simply providing us some
o b v e r s e d e s i g n s and some reverse designs and

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l e t t i n g u s k i n d of sort that out.

I don’t

k n o w i f t h a t w o rks for you, if it’s too
p r o b l e m a t i c , t h en certainly do what you need
to do.

I t h i n k that would help our process if

w e c o u l d r e c e i v e it that way.

The nominations

c o u l d b e f i x e d whenever.
W i t h t h at, Robert, are you ready to
m a k e y o u r c o m m e nts?

I can go to someone else

i f y o u ’ r e n o t r eady.
M R . H O G E:

No, that’s okay.

Many

i m a g e s c o m e t o mind when I think of Mark Twain
and his work.

A portrait of him, he’s so

d i s t i n c t i v e l o o king, and we think of him in
h i s l a t e r y e a r s really as representing this
aspect.
A n o t h e r thing perhaps that is read by
e v e r y b o d y i s s o me work related to his boyhood,
s o t h e l i t t l e f igure of a little boy in
o v e r a l l s a n d b a re feet, the straw hat, and the
fishing pole.

Tom Sawyer.

Huckleberry Finn.

M a r k T w a i n h i m s elf.
A l s o , t he idea of the riverboat pilot.

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M a y b e w e w o u l d want a riverboat image, too.
T h e r e a r e s o m a ny images that come to mind
t h a t I c a n ’ t r e ally prefer one over another,
b u t s i n c e w e h a ve four opportunities here, two
o b v e r s e a n d t w o reverses, I think we could do
a g o o d j o b w i t h the different aspects of his
life.

T h a t ’ s i t.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you, Robert.

W e w i l l g o t o M ichael.
M R . M O R AN:

I’m going to differ from

R o b e r t i n o n e r egard.

I don’t want to see Tom

S a w y e r w i t h a f ishing pole on a raft in the
back.

I a g r e e Mississippi was very

i n f o r m a t i v e i n his culture and his approach to
things.

T h e r e are a lot of things that I

t h i n k y o u c a n d o without resorting to that
k i n d o f s i m p l i c ity for Tom Sawyer and Huck
F i n n , a n d w i t h that, I’ll pass.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you, Michael.

W e w i l l g o t o H erman.
D R . V I O LA:

This is really a very

s i g n i f i c a n t m e d al because I think everyone is

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a c q u a i n t e d w i t h Mark Twain.

I loved him.

I

r e a l l y l i k e t h e idea of having this portrait
on here.

H e h a s such a distinctive face.

W h a t a b o u t h a v i ng Halley’s Comet in the
background?

I t kind of defined his birth and

d e a t h , w e w e r e told.
I c e r t a inly would like to see a
steamboat.

I d on’t know, obverse or reverse.

C e r t a i n l y w i t h the Mark Twain and Clemens’
f a c e , I t h i n k y ou have something here.

My own

f e e l i n g , d o w e tell the artists what they
s h o u l d c o m e u p with?

Aren’t they going to

c o m e u p w i t h a lot of their own concepts?
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

I’m sorry, Herman.

I

s h o u l d h a v e e x p lained this process a little
better.

O u r d i scussions are just an

o p p o r t u n i t y f o r us as members to share any
i d e a s w e m i g h t have of a particular subject
matter.

W h a t c omes out on the other side, you

k n o w , i s d u e t o The Mint’s process.

This is

o u r o p p o r t u n i t y to weigh in.
D R . V I O LA:

Okay.

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C H A I R M A N MARKS:

With any ideas that

w e t h i n k w e m i g ht be interested in seeing
t r a n s l a t e d t o d esigners.
D R . V I O LA:

Okay.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

I’ll pass.
These will come back

t o u s f o r a v o t e on the visual designs to
consider.
D R . V I O LA:

I’m looking forward to

w h a t t h e y c o m e up with.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M R . J A N SEN:

Erik?

Although in general I

w o u l d s a y t e x t on these coins is to be
avoided.

I w o u ld suggest as part of the

r e s e a r c h h e r e i f there is to be concluded a
s i n g l e p h r a s e , nothing comes to my mind right
n o w , b u t i f t h e re is to be a single short
p h r a s e t h a t m i g ht help the public relate to
s o m e o f h i s w o r ks, that phrase might be
s o m e w h e r e w h e r e it might match the graphics.
W e o f t e n think of a barefoot boy with
a f i s h i n g r o d , fishing pole, rather, dangling
i n t h e w a t e r , a s symbolic of Twain.

I hope we

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c a n m a y b e a v o i d that and come up with
s o m e t h i n g a l i t tle more creative or perhaps
e m b e d t h a t i n a more symbolic kind of design.
T h e h i s tory says Halley’s Comet was
t h e b o o k e n d s o f this man’s life.

That might

m a k e f o r a n i n t eresting piece as well.

I

t h i n k t h a t h a s been mentioned.
I w o u l d hesitate to or I would resist
t h e u r g e t o s t o p after the first cursory image
o f t h e f i s h i n g boy, Huck Finn, the river, the
r i v e r b o a t , t h e frogs of Calaveras County, and
c o n t i n u e t o d i g deeper in the research here to
s e e w h a t e l s e m ight be there.
F i n a l l y , I would add that because his
i m a g e , h i s l i k e ness, if done well, is so
i c o n i c , I t h i n k , to the man’s place in
e v e r y o n e ’ s m i n d between the wild shock of hair
a n d t h e l a r g e b rushy mustache, I think that is
p r o b a b l y d e s e r v ing of perhaps one of the two
s i d e s o f t h e c o in, somehow worked into other
s y m b o l s o f A m e r icana, of the time and growth
o f A m e r i c a i n t he mid- 1900s--rather, in the

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1 8 0 0 s , l a t e 1 8 0 0s, when he flourished in his
work so much.
I w o u l d encourage some real depth in
t h e r e s e a r c h h e re and not stopping at the
s u r f a c e l e v e l i mages that come to mind.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you, Erik.

I’m

g o i n g t o g o o n record asking that the artists
t a k e a n e x p a n s i ve view.

I’ve heard some of

t h e m e m b e r s s a y I hope I don’t see this or
that.

I t h i n k that’s the wrong approach.

I

t h i n k t h a t w e w ould be well served if we
r e c e i v e d 3 1 d e s igns like we did the platinum
p r o g r a m a t o u r last meeting.

I would

c e r t a i n l y h o p e that we would see images that
w e r e v e r y m u c h a part of who Mark Twain was.
M y o b s e rvation is that Congress passed
a b i l l t o c o m m e morate Mark Twain, not Samuel
Clemens.

S a m e man, I know that.

There is a

s i g n i f i c a n t p o i nt to be made here, that Mark
T w a i n w a s h i s p en name or probably his most
s i g n i f i c a n t p e n name.

There were other pen

n a m e s t h a t h e u sed throughout his life.

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T w a i n w a s t h e m ost significant one.

It comes

from the river.
I t h i n k that maybe you all know, but
M a r k T w a i n i s t he call they would call out on
a r i v e r b o a t t o indicate the water is deep
e n o u g h , i t ’ s t w o fathoms deep, Mark Twain,
“ T w a i n ” b e i n g t wo.

He kind of picked that up

f r o m h i s l i f e i n Hannibal, Missouri where he
g r e w u p , a n d t h en becoming someone--I forget
w h a t h i s t i t l e was on a steamboat.

That was

v e r y m u c h a p a r t of his early life, and it
h e a v i l y i n f l u e n ced his writing.
I n f a c t , arguably two of his most
s i g n i f i c a n t b o o ks, both “Tom Sawyer” and
“ H u c k l e b e r r y F i nn,” are rooted in that culture
o n t h e M i s s i s s i ppi during the 19th Century, a
v e r y d i s t i n c t i v e period which I think calls
f o r a n y a s s o r t m ent of ideas.
A l s o , I think important is his break
o u t p i e c e , w h i c h I think most people would
a g r e e w i t h m e , the celebrated Jumping Frog of
C a l a v e r a s C o u n t y.

From the research I have

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d o n e , t h a t ’ s t h e piece, although a short
s t o r y , t h e o n e that first brought him
r e c o g n i t i o n o n a broad scale nationally and
e v e n i n t e r n a t i o nally.
I t h i n k with four coin faces here,
o b v e r s e / r e v e r s e for both gold and silver,
t h e r e a r e l o t s of opportunities here.
see frogs.

I c an see boys on rafts.

s e e p a d d l e b o a t s, steamboats.

I can
I can

I can see lots

o f t h o s e s o r t s of images that would be iconic
t o a f i g u r e l i k e Mark Twain.
I a l s o think that given the
d i s t i n c t i v e i m a ge of Mark Twain, that we most
d e f i n i t e l y w a n t to look at his image as an
o b v e r s e f o r t h e se coins.
t h a t a l l s o r t s out.

I’m not sure how

I think we ought to have

t h o s e p o r t r a i t s available to us.
I t h i n k that’s all I wanted to say.
I ’ l l r e c o g n i z e Heidi.
M S . W A S TWEET:

Thank you.

Here’s the

c h a l l e n g e t o t h e artists, to be emblematic
w i t h o u t b e i n g c liché.

A little research will

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s h o w t h a t t h e r e are lots of other medals that
h a v e b e e n p r o d u ced showing Mark Twain and
H u c k l e b e r r y F i n n, and we don’t want to copy
t h o s e o r m i r r o r those too closely but be
original.
O n e o f the purposes of coins is to be
e d u c a t i o n a l , b u t we don’t want to be so
e d u c a t i o n a l t h a t we become obscure in our
symbology.

F o r example, listed here is his

love of cats.

I don’t think that really

e n c o m p a s s e s h i s power on our imaginations
t h r o u g h h i s w r i ting.

I think that is a little

too obscure.
I a l s o think some of the suggestions
a b o u t t h e H a r t f ord House, for example, a
b u i l d i n g , I t h i nk, is too static for someone
a s a n i m a t e d a p erson as Mark Twain.
I d o l i ke the image of the Comet in
c o n j u n c t i o n w i t h his portrait.

I think that

i s a n i n t e r e s t i ng story that I hadn’t heard
b e f o r e , a n d I t hink the public would be
i n t e r e s t e d t o r ead about that as well.

It

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a d d s i n t e r e s t t o an otherwise expected
portrait.

I t h ink that would be very

i n t e r e s t i n g t o see.
T h a t ’ s it.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you, Heidi.

Tom?
M R . U R A M:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I

t h i n k t h e r e w i l l be a lot of fun with this, I
h o p e , a n d I t h i nk this could be a great
o p p o r t u n i t y f o r us to maybe look at both
s i d e s , a b o y h o o d version as well as the iconic
image.

I a g r e e , too, I think the Comet

a p p r o a c h f o r t h e iconic image would be great.
W h a t I would hope to see is that this
w o u l d e n t i c e s o me interest in young collectors
s i n c e i t i s a g reat power for us to really
h a v e s o m e n e w i nterest and new blood on coins
itself.
I t h i n k I would like to see one like
v e r y c h i l d l i k e that would be enticing for a
y o u n g c o l l e c t o r to collect, and the other coin
t o b e m o r e o f t he iconic.

Thank you, Mr.

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Chairman.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you, Tom.

M a r y , a r e y o u o n line?
M S . L A N NIN:

Yes, I am.

As an

o r i g i n a l M i n n e s otan, I would like to remind
e v e r y b o d y t h a t the Mississippi began in Lake
I t a s c a , M i n n e s o ta, so I’m all for showing the
M i s s i s s i p p i i n some way, shape or form.
A l s o , I think the riverboat is very
important.

“ M a rk Twain,” we have talked

a b o u t , i s a c t u a lly a measurement of depth.
G a r y , y o u m e n t i oned that.

I believe different

c o l o r e d s t r i p s of either cloth or leather to
t h e s e d e p t h m a r kers to figure out how deep the
r i v e r w a s , t h a t might be kind of an
i n t e r e s t i n g d e s ign element in the coin.
W e t a l k ed about some people didn’t
w a n t t h e i m a g e of a little boy with a fishing
pole.

A v i e w f rom the back of Mark Twain

t u r n i n g i n t o a profile of a young boy with a
f i s h i n g p o l e h e ading toward a river.
m i g h t b e s o m e t h ing.

That

I don’t know.

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I t h i n k we have lots of opportunities
o f w h a t a n e x c i ting person he was.

I also did

n o t k n o w t h e H a lley’s Comet connection.

I’d

l i k e t o s e e s o m ething done on one of the coins
as well.

T h a t is it for me.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you, Mary.

t h i n k t h a t t a k e s us around the ranks.

I

I will

j u s t c o n c l u d e t his by saying what I said
b e f o r e , a n d t h a t is I hope we can have an
e x t e n s i v e p o r t f olio presented to us that
c o v e r s a r a n g e of subjects and topics related
to Mark Twain.

I think that would give us the

b e s t o p p o r t u n i t y to come up with two coins
t h a t w i l l b e r e ally appropriate for
c o m m e m o r a t i n g M ark Twain.
M S . S T A FFORD:

Cindy, if you are still

t h e r e , w h e n w e had initial conversations with
y o u , y o u s h a r e d with us some of Mark Twain’s
f a m o u s q u o t e s s pecifically regarding money.
D i d y o u w a n t t o share some of those with the
Committee?
M S . L O V ELL:

I did note the comment

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e a r l i e r a b o u t t he possibility of some phrases,
a n d o n e o f h i s most famous quotes, of course-w e k n o w h e h a d real financial challenges as a
b o y a n d l a t e r a s an adult which he did
o v e r c o m e - - o n e i s “A lack of money is the root
of all evil.”

Another had to do with paying

f o r d e b t , w h e n the rest of the country was
f i l i n g b a n k r u p t cy and paying 10 cents on the
d o l l a r , h e p a i d his debt in full, and he said
“ H o n o r h a s n o s tatute of limitations.”
O n e i s more humorous, as we think of
T w a i n a s a h u m o rist, but he was certainly a
v e r y s e r i o u s m a n with a very serious side and
n o t t o b e d i s m i ssed as a mere humorist.
I r e a l l y, really appreciated the
c o m m e n t - - I w a s sitting here smiling and taking
n o t e s - - t h e i d e a of his image, I think everyone
a g r e e d t h a t i s so important and so distinctive
a n d r e c o g n i z a b l e.

I agree his face as older

M a r k T w a i n , t h e most recognizable man, really
s h o u l d a p p e a r o n one of these coins.
T h e i d e a of a steamboat, which is so

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c r i t i c a l n o t o n ly to his life but to his work,
a n d I t h i n k t h a t can be incorporated with the
M i s s i s s i p p i R i v er, with Huckleberry Finn, and
I w o u l d c o n s i d e r Jim’s presence.

Huckleberry

F i n n i s i c o n i c but Huckleberry Finn is unique
f o r s o m a n y r e a sons that maybe first and
f o r e m o s t i t w a s the first book really written
i n t h e A m e r i c a n vernacular, and second, it
m a d e a b l a c k m a n a major figure, a main
c h a r a c t e r , t r e a ted him as a human, treated him
w i t h r e s p e c t , a nd this had never been done in
A m e r i c a n h i s t o r y.
I t h i n k everyone is sort of on the
s a m e p a g e , I t h ink the artists will probably
h a v e a l o t o f f un interpreting this, and I
h o p e J i m w i l l b e on here in some fashion, but
I t h i n k e v e r y b o dy said wonderful remarks, all
o f w h i c h w e r e a ppropriate and very fitting for
him.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you very much.

I w a n t t o t h a n k Ms. Lovell for her comments
a n d p a r t i c i p a t i ng in all this, and I look

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f o r w a r d t o h a v i ng you involved in the review
o f t h e d e s i g n s when we come back to this
project.
M R . U R A M:

One comment, Mr. Chairman.

A l s o , m a y b e n o t so much from the medal point
o f v i e w b u t f r o m the packaging point of view,
i f w e c o u l d s o m ething that would maybe even be
f r o m a P R p o i n t of view, maybe package this in
a b o o k f o r m a t , so it’s like you’re opening one
o f h i s b o o k s , o r something like that, very
s i m i l a r t o w h a t we do with the Teddy Roosevelt
p a c k a g i n g , w h e r e it would be very attractive
f o r y o u t h f u l p e ople who want to start
c o l l e c t i n g , t h i s might be something that might
want to open up.
F r o m t h e packaging side, I’m just
t h r o w i n g t h a t t hought in there because I think
r a t h e r t h a n j u s t doing the blue box with the
n o r m a l , I t h i n k this is a great opportunity to
p u t t h a t s t o r y in there that we just heard
about as well.
T h a n k y ou, Mr. Chairman.

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C H A I R M A N MARKS:

We are going to

c o n c l u d e t h i s , but as we depart from this
s u b j e c t , I ’ l l j ust have one final comment, and
t h a t i s a g a i n , let’s try to be expansive, and
e v e n o n t h e s e q uotes, I love the quotes that
w e r e s h a r e d , e v en the humorous one, it’s a
quote.

I t ’ s n o t an official inscription from

t h e U n i t e d S t a t es Government.

Twain was a

humorist.
I t w o u l d be refreshing to see
s o m e t h i n g l i k e that, especially that one
m e n t i o n e d , t h a t no money is the root of all
evil.

I d o n ’ t know if that works, but I would

g e t a k i c k o f s eeing that on a design.
L e t ’ s m ove now to our discussion on
t h e M o n u m e n t s M en Congressional Gold Medal.
April?
M S . S T A FFORD:

First let me check to

s e e i f o u r l i a i sons are with us.

Robert

E d s e l , a r e y o u with us?
M R . E D S EL:

I am.

M S . S T A FFORD:

Great.

It is Public

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L a w 1 1 3 -1 1 6 , g r anting a congressional gold
m e d a l c o l l e c t i v ely to the Monuments Men in
r e c o g n i t i o n o f their heroic role in the
p r e s e r v a t i o n , p rotection and restitution of
m o n u m e n t s , w o r k s of art, and artifacts of
c u l t u r a l i m p o r t ance during and following World
War II.
O n J u n e 23, 1943, President Franklin
D . R o o s e v e l t f o rmed the American Commission
f o r t h e P r o t e c t ion and Salvage of Artistic and
H i s t o r i c M o n u m e nts in War Areas.

This

c o m m i s s i o n e s t a blished the Monuments, Fine
A r t s , a n d A r c h i ve Section under the Allied
Armies.
T h e m e n and women who served in the
M M F A A , a s i t w a s known, were referred to as
“Monuments Men.”

Each had expertise as museum

d i r e c t o r s , c u r a tors, art historians, artists,
a r c h i t e c t s , a n d educators.
I n D e c e mber 1943, General Dwight D.
E i s e n h o w e r e m p o wered the Monuments Men by
i s s u i n g o r d e r s to all commanders that stated

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t h e y m u s t r e s p e ct monuments so far as war
allows.
A l t h o u g h they were initially employed
t o p r o t e c t a n d temporarily repair the
m o n u m e n t s , c h u r ches, and cathedrals of Europe
s u f f e r i n g d a m a g e due to combat, their mission
w a s a d a p t e d t o identify, preserve, catalogue,
a n d r e p a t r i a t e almost five million artistic
a n d c u l t u r a l i t ems.
T h e M o n uments Men grew to
a p p r o x i m a t e l y 3 50 who joined front line
military forces.

Two Monuments Men lost their

lives in action.

Following the allied

v i c t o r y , t h e y r emained abroad to rebuild
c u l t u r a l l i f e i n Europe through organizing art
e x h i b i t i o n s a n d concerts.
D e s i g n concepts as suggested by the
l i a i s o n i s t o r epresent the relationships
b e t w e e n t h e A m e rican, English and French
j o i n e d o p e r a t i o ns, to represent the shared
s a c r i f i c e o f t h e nations that contributed to
t h e e f f o r t s o f the Monuments Men, and to

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r e p r e s e n t t h e v ast number of art and cultural
items recovered.
S u g g e s t ed inscriptions include
“ M o n u m e n t s M e n ” and “Act of Congress 2014.”
I w i l l also note before turning it
o v e r t o R o b e r t Edsel, our liaison, that there
w e r e s u g g e s t i o n s to portray specific art,
s c u l p t u r e s , i n fact, such as the Bruges
Madonna.

I n f a ct, we are not going to be able

t o p o r t r a y a n y art that has religious
overtones.
W i t h t h at, let me introduce Robert
E d s e l , t h e C h a i rman of the Board of the
M o n u m e n t s M e n F oundation.
f o r t h i s p r o g r a m.

He is our liaison

He’s on the phone today

w i t h u s t o d i s c uss possible design themes
further.

H e i s joined by Christy Fox,

E x e c u t i v e V i c e President, also at the
M o n u m e n t s M e n F oundation.
W i t h t h at, Mr. Edsel, would you care
t o s a y a f e w w o rds to the Committee?
M R . E D S EL:

I should take you on the

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road with me.

You have made it easy for me.

T h e s e w ere a remarkable group of men
and women.
Men.”

T h e y were referred to as “Monument

O f c o u r s e, the women couldn’t serve in

combat.

T h e s t ory that we have told through

t h e t h r e e b o o k s I’ve written has primarily
f o c u s e d o n t h e role of the men.

The women

p l a y e d a n i m p o r tant role at the end of combat
i n a s s i s t i n g w i th the repatriation of some
f i v e m i l l i o n o b jects that the Monuments Men
f o u n d i n s a l t m ines, caves, and castles of
w h i c h a b o u t f o u r million were stolen.

It is

a c t u a l l y f a r m o re than four million because
s o m e o f t h e s e o bjects like chests filled with
h u n d r e d s o f j e w elry objects were counted as
one.
W e a r e talking about the most
i m p o r t a n t l i b r a ry books, the accumulation of
W e s t e r n c i v i l i z ation’s artistic and literary
a c h i e v e m e n t s , a lmost a million paintings and
d r a w i n g s , s c u l p tures, tapestries, furniture,
j e w e l r y , r e l i g i ous objects from the most

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f a m o u s t h i n g s t hat you might know of in
c h u r c h e s a n d m u seums throughout Western Europe
a n d s o m e f r o m E astern Europe to more obscure
things.

R e a l l y , nothing was left out of the

mix.
T h e g r o up was primarily 70 percent
A m e r i c a n s , 3 0 p ercent British at the
b e g i n n i n g , u n t i l the end of the war.

It was

a n A m e r i c a n l e d operation with the support of
Great Britain.

There are no more--by the end

o f W o r l d W a r I I in Europe, May 1945, there was
n o m o r e t h a n p r obably about 120 or 130
M o n u m e n t s M e n i n the field, probably a couple
o f d o z e n o n t h e front line, many others are
b e h i n d t h e f r o n t lines.
A t t h e end of the war, when all the
t r o o p s w e r e c o m ing home, we started this
d i s c o v e r y o f t h ousands of hiding places of
w o r k s o f a r t c o ntaining not only stolen
o b j e c t s , w h i c h is the four million number, but
a b o u t a m i l l i o n objects found belonging to
G e r m a n m u s e u m s and other German cultural

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i n s t i t u t i o n s a n d individuals, which the
M o n u m e n t s M e n w ere custodians of for about
f i v e y e a r s u n t i l Germany’s institutions could
b e r e b u i l t a n d a new post- Nazi government put
in place.
T h e n e e ds of the Monuments Men
i n c r e a s e d d r a m a tically while combat troops
w e r e c o m i n g h o m e.

They began adding to their

n u m b e r s a d d i t i o nal men and women, this is
w h e r e t h e w o m e n really come into play, and
i n c r e a s e d w h e r e the number of people who had
s e r v e d t u r n e d o ut to be about 350.

There were

n e v e r t h a t m a n y at one time.
T h e r e w ere new Monuments officers
c o m i n g i n , s o m e of the first initial groups
a r e g o i n g h o m e , and you have Monuments
o f f i c e r s f r o m 1 2 other nations besides the
U n i t e d S t a t e s c oming to the central collecting
p o i n t s w h e r e t h e stolen objects are grouped
a n d s o r t e d t h r o ugh, a process that takes
a l m o s t s i x y e a r s.
T h i n g s that were stolen from Poland

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w e r e p i l e d u p i n one area, as an example.
T h e r e a r e P o l i s h Monuments officers that help
i d e n t i f y w h i c h things came from Poland, and
t h e r e a r e o f f i c ers from Belgium, from Holland,
f r o m F r a n c e , a n d so on.
T h a t i s essentially the composition.
O b v i o u s l y d u r i n g the period that those
c o u n t r i e s w e r e occupied, they couldn’t produce
M o n u m e n t s o f f i c ers, per se.
t h e e n d o f c o m b at operations.

It really took to
As these

c o u n t r i e s w e r e liberated, they started
s u p p l y i n g p e o p l e from their own country that
k n e w a b o u t t h e works of art that had been
t a k e n f r o m t h e i r respective countries.
I t h i n k that should give you a good
overview.

T h e s e are on average, average age,

a b o u t 4 0 y e a r s old, almost all of these men
a n d w o m e n h a d v ery established careers.

Many

o f t h e m h a d f a m ilies, some had kids, and they
h a d e v e r y r e a s o n to not do this.

They were

c h a r g e d w i t h s a ving rather than destroying.
T h e r e a re two aspects I should mention

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a n d t h e n I ’ l l a nswer any questions you all may
h a v e , t h a t a r e really changes with the way war
has been fought.

These are the legacies but

y o u w o u l d n ’ t k n ow it by what we have done
s i n c e W o r l d W a r II because we forgot all this.
W e d i d n ’ t d o v e ry well in subsequent wars.
T h e t w o changes with the break of
c i v i l i z a t i o n w e re it was the first time an
a r m y o n a c o m p r ehensive basis attempted to
f i g h t a w a r o n the one hand and mitigate
d a m a g e t o c u l t u ral treasures at the same time.
T h a t w a s a c h a n ge in how wars had been fought,
a n d n o a v e r a g e war.
T h e s e c ond thing was in a break with
w a r s p a s t , i t w as the policy of the western
a l l i e s t h a t t h e victors did not get to keep
t h e s p o i l s o f w ar, and these things that had
b e e n f o u n d w e r e returned to the countries from
w h i c h t h e y w e r e taken.
T h o s e a re the two lasting legacies of
t h e M o n u m e n t s M en that only now through the
b o o k s w e h a v e d rawn to people’s attention,

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p o l i c y m a k e r s , leaders, reminding them this
w a s t h e g o l d b a r, the highest standard ever
e s t a b l i s h e d f o r the protection of cultural
t r e a s u r e s , a n d we should know about it and reimplement it.
T h a t i s really how we have gotten to
w h e r e w e a r e i n a nutshell.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you, Mr. Edsel.

I g u e s s I w i l l start off with a question, a
c o u p l e o f q u e s t ions, I guess.

Are there any

p i e c e s o f a r t t hat were recovered with themes
o u t s i d e o f t h e religious realm that were
c e l e b r a t e d a n d signaled out as important
finds?

A r e t h e re just a few that come to mind

t h a t m i g h t b e i mages that could represent the
f i v e m i l l i o n p i eces that were recovered and
repatriated?
M R . E D S EL:

Yes.

Well, you are

b o r i n g n o w I t h ink on the right thing, and
t h i s i s w h y w e made recommendations.

I think

t h e B r u g e s M a d o nna--I think it is unfair and
i n a c c u r a t e t o r edline that one.

Let me make a

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point.

I k n o w something about art having

c o l l e c t e d i t , e t cetera.
I n t h e 13th/14th/15th Century, that is
a l l a n y b o d y p a i nted.
religious art.
art.

They didn’t paint it as

It wasn’t considered religious

T h e y p a i n ted the subjects at the time.

T h a t i s w h a t t h e subjects were.

You won’t

f i n d a n y t h i n g t hat can’t be construed in that
context.
M a d o n n a and Child by Michelangelo, the
B r u g e s M a d o n n a and Child, that I don’t think
i s a r e l i g i o u s subject as much as say the Kent
A l t a r p i e c e , w h i ch is the land of Christ, et
cetera.

N o q u e stion there.
L e o n a r d o da Vinci’s Lady with an

E r m i n e w o u l d c e rtainly be a non- religious
p i e c e a n d i t i s one--I don’t know if you have
a c o p y o f m y f i rst book, it is on the front
c o v e r o f t h a t b ook with Monuments officers
h o l d i n g t h a t p a inting and returning it.
T h e r e a re only 15 accepted paintings
b y L e o n a r d o d a Vinci in the world.

This is

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o n e o f t h e o n e s he has done entirely in his
o w n h a n d a n d s i gned.

It was stolen by the

N a z i ’ s f r o m K r a kow, Poland.

The Monuments

o f f i c e r s f o u n d it and returned it in that
d r a m a t i c p h o t o , holding it in front of a
train.
T h e r e a re works.

Michelangelo’s

D a v i d , w h i c h I consider no more a religious
w o r k o r n o l e s s than the Bruges Madonna-a n y w a y , t h e D a v id wasn’t stolen because nobody
c o u l d p i c k i t u p and get it out of the
building.

I t w as under threat of damage

during the war.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you.

I would

a r g u e t h a t t h e David isn’t necessarily a
r e l i g i o u s f i g u r e and David was a King in the
real world.

I think in a program like this,

w e ’ r e g o i n g t o need some images that can
r e p r e s e n t t h e b road spectrum.

Clearly, we

c a n ’ t p u t e v e r y thing on a three inch medal.
M R . E D S EL:

That’s the problem.

h e a r w h e r e y o u are coming from.

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U n f o r t u n a t e l y , it was the Monuments, Fine Arts
a n d A r c h i v e s G r oup, MFAA was the acronym,
n i c k n a m e d M o n u m ents Men, they never even had
t h e i r o w n i n s i g nia or designation because they
w e r e j u s t a b u n ch of individual officers, most
o f w h o m v o l u n t e ered, which is one of the
e l e m e n t s t h a t m akes their service so noble.
T h e y c a me out of private careers in
p r i v a t e e n t e r p r ise and volunteered to go into
m i l i t a r y s e r v i c e to do this, or they were in
r e s e r v e s a n d v o lunteered to be called up or
t r a n s f e r r e d i n t o, because everyone had to go
into the Army.

A lot of these guys were Naval

R e s e r v e ’ s a n d h ad to transfer over.
T h e r e i s no insignia, there is no
patch.

W e d o n ’ t have anything to work off

l i k e y o u w o u l d have with 101st First Airborne
o r a n y t h i n g l i k e that.

What we do have are a

w o r k o f a r t r e c ognized.
T h e p r o blem with the David is the
g r e a t c o n c e r n o f protecting it from damage,
t h e I t a l i a n s ’ e ffort to protect it out of fear

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o f a l l i e d b o m b i ng, so it would be a correct
d e p i c t i o n t o s a y it was under threat during
the war.

I t h i nk it would be misleading in

t h e s e n s e t h a t someone might come along and
s a y w e l l , t h e g reatest danger the David faced
w a s b e i n g d a m a g ed by allied bombing as opposed
t o t h e L e o n a r d o painting, which is just so
i c o n i c , w h i c h d oesn’t get any bigger as far as
the name.
T h e r e a re also some paintings by
V e r m e e r t h a t w e re stolen, but I think it pales
i n c o m p a r i s o n t o the paintings of Leonardo da
Vinci.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
M R . E D S EL:

Thank you, Mr. Edsel.

Christy, haven’t we

p r o v i d e d s o m e i mages for them?
M S . F O X:

We did in the Dropbox, but

I ’ m n o t s u r e t h at’s the best way to
c o m m u n i c a t e t h e m to the full Committee.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you.

I want to

t h a n k b o t h M r . Edsel and Ms. Fox for your
comments.

I n e ed to preserve the balance of

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o u r t i m e f o r a c tual discussion with the
Committee.

W e need to conclude this at the

top of the hour.
I ’ l l j u st quickly conclude my own
c o m m e n t s , a n d t hat is I think there is also a
p o t e n t i a l o p p o r tunity here for maybe the
r e v e r s e i n h o n o ring the nations that were
i n v o l v e d i n t h e effort.

This is to honor the

m e n a n d w o m e n w ho were part of this effort to
d i s c o v e r a n d r e patriate the art.
I t h i n k this is an opportunity to
o b s e r v e t h e d i f ferent nations that contributed
to the effort.

That is one idea that I think

m i g h t d o w e l l f or this medal.
M R . E D S EL:

You might get some stars

o n t h e r e o r s o m ething to indicate each
c o u n t r y , b u t t h e thing to remember is until
t h e e n d o f t h e war, the burden falls
p r e d o m i n a t e l y o n American and British
s o l d i e r s , a n d t here were two Monuments
o f f i c e r s k i l l e d , one American and one British,
i n M a r c h a n d A p ril 1945, respectively.

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I d o n ’ t think--we run a risk in trying
t o r e c o g n i z e a l l countries if we do more than
s o m e t h i n g s y m b o lic like a star.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
are saying.

I understand what you

W e need to preserve the balance

o f o u r t i m e , l i ke I said, for the members.
I ’ m g o i n g t o r e cognize Heidi to let us know
w h a t h e r i d e a s might be.
M S . W A S TWEET:

This is a very

c h a l l e n g i n g t o p ic to portray and I wish the
a r t i s t s m u c h l u ck.

I don’t want to

u n d e r e s t i m a t e h ow difficult this is.

There’s

g o i n g t o b e a t emptation to get too busy in
t h e d e s i g n s , t o get too narrative, so I
e n c o u r a g e t h e a rtists to try to distill this
d o w n t o s o m e i c onic images, like the Girl with
t h e E r m i n e a s a representation of the pieces,
i t i s a n i c o n i c and important image, and I
w o u l d e n c o u r a g e use of that.
I t h i n k that is all I have.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Erik, if you’re

ready, go ahead.

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M R . J A N SEN:

Echoing Heidi’s thoughts,

I t h i n k i t ’ s g o ing to be very tempting to
d r i l l i n t o t h e actual artifacts and deliver a
c o l l a g e o f a r t w ork like one might see in an
a u c t i o n h o u s e o r something.
I t h i n k that is probably not the
s y m b o l i c d i r e c t ion we might want to go here.
A s I w a s s i t t i n g here listening to all of
t h i s , w h a t c a m e to my mind was the idea of the
g i v e b a c k , t h e restoring, the recovery of the
w o r l d ’ s c u l t u r a l memory.
I s e e t wo big hands kind of delivering
b a c k t o t h e w o r ld the artwork and cultural and
h i s t o r y a n d s i g natures and memory of the past.
I a l s o s e e a s t ewardship kind of symbol here.
I ’ m n o t s u r e w h ere that comes or goes in terms
o f p u l l i n g s y m b ols out.
W e h a v e an effort by the Monuments Men
t o b e t h e s t e w a rds for what was confused as
o w n e r s h i p a n d t heft.

There is something there

I t h i n k h a s a h uge ethical piece to it.

I

w o u l d e n c o u r a g e the artists to maybe explore

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t h e s y m b o l i c h i story of stewardship,
o w n e r s h i p , t h o s e kinds of things.
T h a t i s what this feels like to me.
W e h a v e t w o l a r ge images here.

This is a

l a r g e m e d a l , s o we’re not in a small pallet of
a g o l d c o i n o r even something as large as an
o n e d o l l a r e a g l e kind of size.

This is a

large pallet.
I w o u l d also not shun some key
v e r b i a g e , i f i n the diligence here there are
s o m e p h r a s e s m a de by any of the leading
p o l i t i c i a n s , e i ther FDR when he established
t h i s o r E i s e n h o wer when he empowered the
M o n u m e n t s M e n b y issuing the orders.

There

m a y b e s o m e v e r biage in some of their
p o l i t i c a l s t a t e ments or otherwise there that
m i g h t b e w o r t h digging out.
A q u e s t ion for our executives on the
p h o n e h e r e , I k now in the wake of some of the
b a t t l e s i n t h e Middle East, some of the
d e s t r u c t i o n o f the icons of Islam and
o t h e r w i s e o v e r there, has there ever been a

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m o v e t o r e s u r r e ct this kind of Monuments Men
m o v e m e n t m o r e r ecently, or did this effort
f o r m a l l y t e r m i n ate, and if so, how and when?
M R . E D S EL:

Those are good questions.

T h e M o n u m e n t s ’ effort was so successful that
i t r e a l l y w a s t he foundation for the creation
o f t h e U N E S C O l aws in 1954, the Hague
C o n v e n t i o n , c o n cerning the protection of
c u l t u r a l p r o p e r ties.
T h e c o u ntries around the world that
a r e s i g n a t o r i e s , the United States being an
e a r l y o n e , a l t h ough it was not ratified until
P r e s i d e n t C l i n t on or President Bush’s time,
w e r e r e s p o n s i b l e for having their own
r e s p e c t i v e M o n u ments officers, and no one
really did that.

In other words, each country

w a s r e s p o n s i b l e for protecting its own stuff.
R o l l i n g forward, no.

There was no

o n g o i n g e f f o r t by the United States, as an
e x a m p l e , t o h a v e a designated group of
M o n u m e n t s o f f i c ers in any wars fought since
World War II.

Of course, we know from the

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l o o t i n g a n d d a m age to the National Library, et
c e t e r a , i t w a s a giant black mark on our
record.
A f t e r t hat happened, the Army, to its
c r e d i t , b r o u g h t in experts, and they have a
d i f f e r e n t s e c t i on now, I think they call it
A r t s , M o n u m e n t s --they have a different acronym
for it.

T h e r e are people in the military now

t h a t a r e b e i n g trained to do this.

There are

m o r e m i l i t a r y p eople being trained rather than
o u t s i d e e x p e r t s being brought in, as took
p l a c e i n W o r l d War II.

Of course, we see the

h o r r i b l e d e s t r u ction that is going on.
C o m m e n t ing quickly about your point
a b o u t s t e w a r d s h ip.

It’s an excellent point.

O n e e l e m e n t o f stewardship is these countries
i n E u r o p e w e r e lying flat on their back.

We

a l l k n o w t h a t , they were broke, they were
s t a r v i n g , a n d t he role of the Monuments Men
o v e r a n d a b o v e finding and returning these
w o r k s o f a r t , w as to get the cultural life
j u m p s t a r t e d , t o start exhibitions, temporary

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e x h i b i t i o n s , u s ing their works of art that
t h e y h a d t h a t h ad been stolen, and trying to
g e t p e o p l e b a c k into doing the things they had
b e e n d o i n g d u r i ng the war.
Y o u a r e right to pick that as a theme,
a n d t h e r e a r e a ll sorts of wonderful phrases,
i n c l u d i n g f r o m a couple key Monuments officers
w h o a c t u a l l y t h ought of this program and were
t h e o n e s t h a t p roposed it to President
R o o s e v e l t , a n d we have a lot of those phrases
i n t h e D r o p b o x for your people to look at.
M R . J A N SEN:

Thank you.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Who else might be

r e a d y t o c o m m e n t?
M S . L A N NIN:

I can comment.

I guess I

c a n s a y I w a s f ortunate to have been in Bruges
e a r l i e r t h i s w e ek and have seen the Bruges
Madonna.

I t h i nk the Lady with the Ermine

w o u l d b e a g o o d one.

It gets away from any

r e l i g i o u s a s p e c t that people may be
c o m p l a i n i n g a b o ut.
I w a s j ust thinking that because this

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i s s u c h a l a r g e medal, maybe an interesting
t h i n g , i f w e a r e talking about words in the
b a c k g r o u n d o r s omething, if a medal was
t e x t u r e d a n d i n itially looked like just lines
i n t h e b a c k , w h at if they were artist
s i g n a t u r e s o r a rtist names all rolled together
a s o n e l o n g l i n e representing the art that had
been saved?

Y o u, Van Dyck, Michelangelo,

L e o n a r d o d a V i n ci.
M R . E D S EL:
that.

We created something like

I t ’ s a w ork product, we had a list of

a r t i s t s , a n d t h ey just all ran together, but
t h e n y o u c o u l d bore in on it.
great idea.

I think it’s a

C h risty, you know what I’m

talking about?
MS. FOX:

Yes.

M R . E D S EL:
M S . L A N NIN:

We will send that to you.
It was so much more than

j u s t s o m e t h i n g from the 15th/16th Centuries.
B e c a u s e t h e n a m es keep going on and on and on,
t h a t g i v e s y o u the scope of how many things
w e r e a c t u a l l y t ook.

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M R . E D S EL:
M S . L A N NIN:

Yes.
I think that would be

a b s o l u t e l y g o r g eous.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Thank you, Mary.

Who

e l s e w o u l d l i k e to make some comments?
Herman?
D R . V I O LA:
to say.

I don’t have a whole lot

M y b a c kground, of course, is museums.

T a l k i n g a b o u t i ndividual pieces of art, I
t h i n k t h e t i m i n g of this is so appropriate
b e c a u s e r i g h t n ow we see the destruction of
a m a z i n g m o n u m e n ts in the Middle East, the
T a l i b a n h a s b e e n destroying sculptures.

I

t h i n k t h i s w o u l d bring a lot of attention to
t h e f a c t t h a t w e are witnessing at this very
m o m e n t s u c h g r e at destruction of these
memorials.
S o , w a s there like a museum, let’s say
T h e L o u v r e , o r some place that got a number of
t h e s e o b j e c t s a nd have put them back into
p l a c e , a n d w e c ould kind of highlight one of
t h e s e f a m o u s m u seums to bring attention to

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t h i s p r e s e r v a t i on.
M i l i t a r y records are at the National
Archives.

F o r any of these people that had

l i k e t h e i r o w n unit, maybe there are records,
a n d w e c a n a c t u ally go and look and see if
t h e r e a r e a n y d rawings or things that are
there now.
M R . E D S EL:
at the Archives.

We spent countless hours
By the way, Corine Wegener

a n d o t h e r s t h e r e at Smithsonian, we worked
with them, too.

You are absolutely right to

f o c u s o n w h a t ’ s going on today, it’s a
t r a g e d y , w h a t ’ s happening, it’s a tragedy that
w e h a v e n ’ t l e a r ned more from what these guys
d i d d u r i n g W o r l d War II.
T h e i r i nitial responsibility was to
w o r k w i t h t h e a llied air commanders to steer
b o m b i n g a w a y f r om these kinds of buildings.
T h e o n e t h a t w e almost blew up was the
r e f e c t o r y i n M i lan holding Leonardo’s Last
Supper.

A B r i t ish bomb almost leveled the

b u i l d i n g , a n d i t was a miracle that it

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survived.
T h e p r o blem is other than that, I
d o n ’ t t h i n k t h e re is a single building or
m o n u m e n t t h a t i s so iconic that everybody can
l o o k a t i t a n d instantly recognize what we are
talking about.

That’s the problem with that.

I n t h e case of Leonardo’s Lady with
t h e E r m i n e , y o u have Leonardo da Vinci’s name
o n i t , a n d e v e r ybody recognizes who you are
talking about.
I d o n ’ t know of any drawings.

There

a r e p l e n t y o f d rawings done by Monuments
o f f i c e r s , a n u m ber of them were artists.

I’ve

i n c l u d e d s o m e o f the drawings in some of my
books.

W e w i l l go back and look.

I don’t

t h i n k y o u a r e g oing to see a drawing of any
i c o n i c b u i l d i n g , per se, or monument, that is
g o i n g t o c o n v e y that.

Therein lies our

problem.
I f w e u se the Lady with the Ermine
p a i n t i n g , i t r e ally has to be symbolic because
t h e y s a v e d m u s i cal instruments, musical

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m a n u s c r i p t s b y the most important musicians of
o u r t i m e , C h o p i n and others.

They saved

m a n u s c r i p t s w r i tten by some of the most
i m p o r t a n t p e o p l e that were in the libraries
that were saved.
A t l e a s t in our way of understanding,
h a v i n g w o r k e d t his 12 years, we don’t know of
o n e t h i n g t h a t is so much of a silver bullet
t h a t y o u h a v e a n “ah- ha” moment that it
r e p r e s e n t s t h e breadth of what the Nazi’s
stole.

T h e r e w ere church bells stolen.

h a v e a p h o t o o f 5,000 church bells.
gold bars.

We

There are

N o t one of those things--they all

w o r k t o t h e e x c lusion of others.

That’s the

problem.
M S . L A N NIN:

What about the salt

mines?
M R . E D S EL:

If we have it, we will

m a k e s u r e y o u h ave photos of salt mines with
a l l t h e t h i n g s inside.

I don’t know by the

t i m e y o u s h r i n k that down to the size of the
m e d a l h o w t h a t will look.

I don’t know.

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C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Okay.

Who else would

like to comment?
M R . M O R AN:
quick.

Gary, I’ll try to make it

I k n o w we are running against a

deadline.

I f y ou look at the items that were

s a v e d , a t a n y o ne point in time, they
r e p r e s e n t t h e s um total of humanity,
p a r t i c u l a r l y t h e Western culture, up to that
p o i n t i n t i m e i n which they were created.
W h a t y o u had in World War II was a
c h a n c e - - l o s t a l l of our Western culture.

That

i s w h a t t h e s e m en did that was so significant,
a n d i t w a s i n a time when there was just
a b s o l u t e l y i n h u manity on both sides; bright
spot there.
I w o u l d suggest that we might want to
t a k e a l o o k a t the very beginnings of Western
c u l t u r e i n t e r m s of what we want to express on
this medal.

I would go back, when you want to

e x p r e s s t h e a r t s, to the original Roman and
G r e e k i m a g e s f o r the arts, et cetera.

You may

v e r y w e l l h a v e a very effective design in that

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regard.
I t h i n k if we start trying to do some
o f t h e t h i n g s o f the 20th Century and some of
t h e p i e c e s t h a t are saved, we’re going to get
a v e r y m e d i o c r e medal, with the exception of I
t h i n k t h e r e a r e some potential--per Mary’s
s u g g e s t i o n - - t h e signatures running together in
a field.
M R . E D S EL:
idea.

I think that’s a good

I t ’ s n o t just all of the things they

f o u n d t h a t t h e y returned that were stolen.
Y o u h a v e t o c o n sider--this is why I think one
p a r t i c u l a r m u s e um won’t work--every single
m u s e u m i n E u r o p e is closed for six years.
A l l t h e things in those museums is
h i d d e n s o m e w h e r e so the Monuments officers
u l t i m a t e l y h a v e to find and return some five
m i l l i o n o b j e c t s , but all the museums out here
t h e n h a v e t o r e locate all the things that were
i n t h e m u s e u m s that have been hidden in
v a r i o u s p l a c e s back in the museums.
Y o u ’ r e correct.

You have the

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a c c u m u l a t e d a r t istic and manuscripts of
m a n k i n d ’ s t h i n k ing all hanging in a pendulum
d u r i n g t h i s p e r iod of time, and that is our
c i v i l i z a t i o n a s we know it, and I think that
i s v e r y i n t e r e s ting and a thought, and not one
t h a t w e h a d g i v en thought to, going back to
the classics.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
Edsel.

Okay.

Thank you, Mr.

W e w i l l go to Robert now.
M R . H O G E:

I don’t really have very

m u c h t o s a y o n this.

I think we can leave it

w i t h t h e t a l e n t , knowledge and intelligence of
the artists.

I think it is important to have

s o m e e v o c a t i v e verbiage on this piece to kind
o f t i e t h e s e d i sparate elements together,
s o m e t h i n g a b o u t “Heritage Regained” or
“ C i v i l i z a t i o n R evived” or “Restored.”
C o m b i n i n g w i t h the wording of “Stewardship.”
I t h i n k t h a t i s very important.

“Stewardship

f o r H e r i t a g e R e gained” or something like that.
I w o u l d like to leave this to the
a r t i s t s a n d t o our constituencies to try to

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c o m e u p w i t h t h ese ideas.
M R . E D S EL:

Show stewardship, again,

M o n u m e n t s o f f i c ers had to babysit the one
m i l l i o n t h i n g s that belonged to Germany, and
s h o w r e s p e c t f o r those things, even though
t h e y w e r e a w a r e of the concentration camps.
C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Okay.

Thank you.

A r e t h e r e a n y o ther Committee comments on the
Monuments Men?
( N o r e s ponse.)
C H A I R M A N MARKS:
E d s e l f o r h i s c omments.

I want to thank Mr.
I hope we have given

a t l e a s t a l i t t le push to the considerations
f o r t h i s c o n g r e ssional gold medal.

I know the

w h o l e C o m m i t t e e will be looking forward to
s e e i n g t h e r e s u lts of that in a visual
portfolio.
M R . E D S EL:
ideas.

There are some great

T h e r e a re a couple more things that we

will supplement.
C H A I R M AN MARKS:

Actually, if there i s

m o r e y o u w o u l d like to contribute, I would ask

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y o u t o p r o v i d e that to us in writing.

We are

a b o u t o u t o f t i me and there is still another
i t e m I n e e d t o consider for our agenda.

Thank

y o u v e r y m u c h , Mr. Edsel, for your very
i n s i g h t f u l c o m m ents.
M R . E D S EL:

You are welcome.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

With that, I wanted

t o n o t e t h a t w e had three of our members not
a b l e t o p a r t i c i pate with us today.

Two of

t h e m d i d p r o v i d e to me some written comments
t h a t I t o l d t h e m I would seek the Committee’s
a p p r o v a l t o p u t on the record.
I ’ m g o i ng to make a motion that the
r e m a r k s f r o m J e anne and Michael Bugeja be
i n c l u d e d i n t h e record in totality.

If this

m o t i o n p a s s e s , I will actually include it at
t h e e n d o f o u r minutes so their ideas and
t h o u g h t s a b o u t these subjects today can be
preserved.
I s t h e r e a second to my motion?
M R . M O R AN:

Second.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

It has been moved and

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s e c o n d e d t o i n c lude Jeanne and Michael
B u g e j a ’ s r e m a r k s on the record.

All those in

f a v o r , p l e a s e r aise your hand.
( S h o w o f hands.)
M S . L A N NIN:

Aye.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:
vote.

That is an unanimous

T h a n k y o u very much.

We have reached

t h e e n d o f o u r agenda today.
e v e r y o n e w h o p a rticipated.

I want to thank
I want to thank

t h e s t a f f f o r a n excellent job, well done.
I n t h e matter of the thematic
d i s c u s s i o n s , I for one and I know the
C o m m i t t e e a r e v ery much looking forward to the
p o r t f o l i o ’ s o n c e they reach us.
W i t h t h at, for those who need to
t r a v e l , I w i s h you safe travels.
M R . M O R AN:

And Merry Christmas.

C H A I R M A N MARKS:

Yes.

We are not

m e e t i n g a g a i n t his calendar year, so all the
s e a s o n a l g r e e t i ngs to all of you and your
families.

H e a l th, happiness, and Happy New

Year.

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I t h i n k we are going to convene again
i n J a n u a r y , s o I will see you all then.
you very much.

We are adjourned.

( W h e r e u pon, at 12:50 p.m., the
C o m m i t t e e m e e t i ng was adjourned.)

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Thank

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CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER

I, CHRISTINE ALLEN, the reporter before whom the
foregoing proceedings were taken, do hereby certify
that the testimony of said proceedings was recorded by
me and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my
direction; that said transcription is a true record of
the proceedings; that I am neither counsel for,
related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the
action in which these proceedings were taken; and,
further, that I am not a relative or employee of any
counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto,
nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome
of this action.

CHRISTINE ALLEN

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