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November 14, 2018 Page 1 1 2 3 CCAC PUBLIC MEETING 4 US MINT 5 6 Wednesday, November 14, 2018 7 1:00 p.m. 8 9 10 801 9TH Street N.W. 11 Washington, D.C. 20220 12 13 14 15 16 17 REPORTED BY: Samuel Honig, Notary Public 18 19 Capital Reporting Company 20 1250 Eye Street, NW, Suite 350 21 Washington, D.C. 20005 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 Sharon Bowen 3 Department of the Treasury 4 U.S. Mint 801 9th Street, NW 5 Washington, D.C. 20220 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 3 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. SCARINCI: Good morning, I call to order 3 this meeting of the Citizens Coin Advisory Committee 4 for Wednesday, November 14th, 2018. 5 appointed Chair, traditionally a senior member of the 6 CCAC steps in to act as Chair. 7 I guess I’m the most senior member so I’m the Acting 8 Chair for today’s meeting. 9 You currently know I’m Donald Scarinci and The first order of business today is formal 10 swearing in of our two newest members, Robin Salmon and 11 Sam Gill and that will -- and for the Mint it will be 12 Mr. David Croft who has the Honor, the Acting Deputy 13 Director of the U.S. Mint and has the honor to swear in 14 the members, so please let’s begin. 15 MR. CROFT: I’d like to welcome the two of 16 you. Welcome to your first meeting. If you could raise 17 your right hand -- I do solemnly swear that I will 18 support and defend the Constitution of the United 19 States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that 20 I will bear true faith and allegiance to do the same, 21 that I take this obligation freely without any mental 22 reservation or purpose of evasion and that I will and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 4 1 faithfully discharge the duties of the Office on which 2 I am about to enter. 3 (Two members sworn in). 4 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 5 6 Excuse me Mr. Chairman, did we do the minutes? MR. SCARINCI: No not yet. Before we begin I 7 want to introduce the members of the Committee so 8 please respond present when I call your name. 9 Sam Gill? 10 MR. GILL: 11 MR. SCARINCI: 12 MR. HOGE: 13 MR. SCARINCI: 14 MR. JANSEN: 15 MR. SCARINCI: 16 MS. LANNIN: 17 MR. SCARINCI: 18 MR. MORAN: 19 MR. SCARINCI: 20 MS. SALMON: 21 MR. SCARINCI: 22 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Present. Robert Hoge? Present. Erik Jansen? Present. Mary Lannin? Present. Mike Moran? Present. Robin Salmon? Present. Jeanne Stevens-Sollman? Present. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 5 1 MR. SCARINCI: 2 MR. TUCKER: 3 MR. SCARINCI: 4 MR. URAM: 5 MR. SCARINCI: 6 MR. VIOLA: 7 MR. SCARINCI: Dennis Tucker? Present. Tom Uram? Present. Herman Viola? Present. And I am present. CCAC will 8 consider the following items today -- there’s a total 9 of -- first we’re going to talk about the letters to 10 the Secretary and the Minutes, and then look for their 11 adoption of the October 16th meeting. 12 We’re going to talk about the candidate 13 designs for the American Veteran’s Silver Medal and 14 there are several other items with the permission of 15 the body we’d like to add to the agenda. 16 discussion -- the great discussion about the 17 inscription on the Weir Farm coin. 18 One is the One is a discussion about the privy -- about 19 the possibility of using the privy mark or a template 20 on the American Inventions CD’s and another and the 21 final item is the Annual Report and hopefully we can 22 conclude the Annual Report today if that’s possible. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 6 1 2 So with that, is there any objection to adding those items to the agenda? 3 FEMALE SPEAKER: 4 MR. SCARINCI: 5 No. Alright then we will proceed and so a Motion to approve the minutes and the letters? 6 MR. JANSEN: 7 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 8 MR. SCARINCI: 9 So moved. Aye. CHORUS: 11 MR. SCARINCI: 12 anyone on the phone? 13 anyone else? 15 Sollman is the second, all those in favor? 10 14 Second. Okay, thank you. Anyone on hold? MS. BAILEY: Oh, is there Coin World -- Ann Bailey from the Program Management Office. 16 MR. HALL: Brandon Hall with the Coin Update. 17 MR. SCARINCI: That’s it, okay, okay, right -- 18 oh for the record I’d like to acknowledge the following 19 Mint staff are present and participating today as well. 20 Betty Birdsong, Acting Liaison to the CCAC, Greg 21 Weinman, Counsel to the CCAC, April Stafford, Chief of 22 the Office of Design Management and Program Managers www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 7 1 from that Office -- Vanessa Franck, Megan Sullivan, Pam 2 Borer and Roger Vasquez. So I’d like to begin with the Mint and if 3 4 there’s any other issues that need to be addressed oh 5 and Ron Harrigal is here as well, he’s just not on my 6 script. 7 MR. HOGE: Is your mic on? 8 MR. SCARINCI: Yes. 9 MS. STAFFORD: Yes, it just doesn’t project 10 the way it does downstairs so if everyone can just be a 11 little louder than typically, that would be great. MR. WEINMAN: 12 13 being heard on the phone but you’re right. 14 15 It is on the record and it is MS. STAFFORD: Sometimes it’s hard to hear in MR. SCARINCI: Okay, so we approved the this room. 16 17 minutes so now we turn to April Stafford, Chief of the 18 Mint’s Office of Design Management to present the 19 portfolio with the American Veteran’s Silver Medal 20 Program. 21 22 MS. STAFFORD: Okay thank you, the American Veteran’s Medal is intended to honor our American www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 8 1 Veterans and their service to our nation. 2 this medal will be produced on a silver commemorative 3 coin plant chips and sold as part of a special set with 4 the 2019 American Legion Silver Dollar Commemorative 5 coin. 6 Initially However, in 2020 the medal may also be 7 produced in the traditional 3 inch and inch and a half 8 bronze versions. 9 be part of the United States Mint’s medal collection in 10 perpetuity and are not subject to individual or program 11 minted levels. 12 These national medals are intended to We have been working very closely with Scott 13 Miller who is the Director of Marketing and Business 14 Development at the American Legion in the development 15 of this portfolio though this is not the commemorative 16 coin because the American Legion sir, is one of the 17 largest service organizations for American veterans, we 18 felt that they’re input would be vital with regard to 19 accuracy and appropriateness. 20 Scott Miller intended to be here physically 21 with us here today, but unfortunately had something 22 come up and was intending to call in. Scott, are you www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 9 1 on the line? 2 able to join us but we certainly have his feedback and 3 can share that with you. Okay, so hopefully Scott Miller will be 4 MR. MILLER: 5 MS. STAFFORD: 6 MR. MILLER: 7 Oh you’re here? I am on the -- yes ma’am, I’m on the call thank you. 8 9 I’m here. MS. STAFFORD: Wonderful Scott, thank you. And we will share with the Committee the designs that 10 you identified as being amongst the strongest in the 11 portfolio and then as the Committee gets into 12 discussion if they have questions about your position 13 or what veteran’s views on a certain design might be, 14 we’ll of course reach out to you, thank you for joining 15 us. 16 MR. MILLER: 17 MS. STAFFORD: Yes ma’am, thank you. Alright we’ll start with the 18 obverse candidate designs, Obverse 1 features Lady 19 Liberty striding forward in defense of her country. 20 she wears a classical helmet and cradles a sword. 21 Benjamin Franklin’s words, “Where liberty is, there is 22 my country,” served as the inspiration for this design. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 10 1 Obverse 2 which was noted for its strength by 2 our representative at the American Legion depicts an 3 eagle as a symbol of the proud protectors of the United 4 States of America and features the inscription, 5 “Protectors of Freedom”. 6 Obverse 3 -- again noted by our -- the 7 representative from the American Legion for its 8 strength portrays a bald eagle spreading its wings as 9 it prepares for flight suggesting the initiative, 10 determination and personal courage required by those 11 who choose to serve in our nation’s armed forces. 12 The five stars represent the five branches of 13 the U.S. Armed Services. 14 America’s Veterans,” encircles the design. 15 The inscription, “Celebrating Obverse 4 depicts a figure representing 16 Dignity, Glory and Honor, presenting a crown of 17 admiration. 18 Veterans” is featured. 19 The inscription, “Honoring America’s Obverse 5 is encircled by an embattled line -- 20 a fortress of defense consisting of 50 blocks 21 representing soldiers from all 50 states who have 22 served to defend our nation. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 11 1 The wreath of triumph consists of two 2 branches, either with 13 laurel leaves symbolic of our 3 original 13 colonies and the soldiers that first fought 4 for freedom. 5 a symbol of justice, military service and honor. 6 7 This design has the inscription, “Honoring America’s Veterans.” 8 9 The wreath is bisected by a small sword, Obverse 6 depicts a victory wreath encircling five stars symbolizing the five branches of the 10 military. The five branches of the military are also 11 honored in a smaller detail where the wreath is held 12 together by five strands, the inscription, “Honoring 13 America’s Veterans,” is featured. 14 I should note that our -- the representative 15 with the American Legion noted these designs for their 16 strength but suggested that the wreath and stars 17 depicted in 6 might be best used as the central feature 18 of Obverse 5, rather than the sword. 19 Moving on to Obverse 7 -- this design depicts 20 five veterans from each of the branches of our Armed 21 Forces -- Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force and Coast 22 Guard. Across the bottom of the design are five stars www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 12 1 representing these five branches of services, the 2 inscription, “America’s Veterans”. 3 Obverse 8, another design identified by our 4 representative with the American Legion for its 5 strength shows an American bald eagle and an attitude 6 of vigilance and protection perched atop a United 7 States flag. 8 inscription, “Honoring America’s Veterans.” 9 Across the top of the design is the Obverse 9 -- again identified for its strength 10 by the representative with whom we’ve been working 11 features a representative from each of the five 12 branches of the military framed from below by five 13 stars representing each branch. 14 eagle stands at attention to honor the group above. Below that a grounded 15 Two American flags are planted in the ground 16 and a laurel wreath encircles the eagle signifying the 17 end of the battle. 18 Freedom,” is featured. 19 The inscription, “Protectors of Obverse 10 depicts laurel waving alongside the 20 American flag symbolizing the honor and commitment of 21 our brave veterans who answered the call to duty, many 22 of whom had made the ultimate sacrifice to ensure and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 13 1 protect our freedom and liberty. The inscription, 2 “Honoring U.S. Veterans,” is featured. Obverse 11 captures the long-awaited return of 3 4 the soldier coming home after a deployment. This 5 design serves as a tribute to the men and women in 6 service and their families who support their dedication 7 and commitment to protect our freedom and liberty. 8 inscription, “Service and Sacrifice,” is featured. The Obverse 12 depicts an allegorical figure of 9 10 honor presenting a symbolic sword in honor of American 11 veterans. 12 the three environments in which our veterans defend our 13 country. 14 and En Victium Libertatis,” which means in defense of 15 liberty are featured. The background displays land, sea and air -- The inscription is “United States of America Obverse 13 showcases a classical warrior 16 17 symbolizing all of the Armed Forces. 18 to defend America against all enemies. 19 is, “United States of America,” and in honor of our 20 veterans who swore to protect this great nation are 21 featured. 22 He stands ready The inscription Obverse 14 portrays a modern American warrior www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 14 1 dressed in combat gear with the flag waving in the 2 background symbolizing vigilance in protecting this 3 national. 4 “Service and Sacrifice,” are featured. The inscription’s “American Veterans,” and And finally for the Obverse 15 represents air, 5 6 maritime and ground forces standing vigilant over a 7 young girl who represents America’s next generation. 8 She holds an olive branch symbolizing the hope of 9 peace. 10 The inscription, “Protecting our Future,” is featured. Moving on to the Reverse candidate designs. 11 12 Reverse 1 which was noted by our representative with 13 the American Legion as a strong design, depicts an 14 American Eagle in a stylized sculptural manner to 15 represent the protection our veterans have provided our 16 nation. 17 The classical treatment is meant to be 18 consistent with the depiction of liberty on Obverse 1 19 of this portfolio. 20 Veterans,” is featured in an exsurge. 21 22 The inscription, “Honoring American Reverse 2 features a veteran’s hand holding dog tags that represent years of sacrifice for our www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 15 1 country. 2 Sacrifice.” 3 It includes the inscription, “Service and Reverse 3 features the union shield with the 4 inscriptions “Honor and Valor” across the field. 5 virtues are required to fulfill the United States Armed 6 Forces oath of enlistments pledge to support and defend 7 the Constitution. 8 9 10 11 These The shield is cradled and upturned laurel symbolizing victory. Beneath the shield is the additional inscription, “Service and Sacrifice.” Reverse 4 and 4A depict an American Eagle -- 12 both a symbol of our country but also a heraldic symbol 13 of nobility, strength and bravery. 14 shield emblazoned with the single star symbolizing our 15 single United Nation. The eagle carries a 16 At the bottom of the shield are five lines 17 representing the five branches of the U.S. military. 18 Reverse 4A is simply a stylized version of Reverse 4. 19 I should note Reverse 4 was identified by the 20 representative at the American Legion for the strength 21 of its design. 22 Reverse 5 portrays soldiers in silhouette as www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 16 1 an all-encompassing symbol of veterans. The soldier on 2 the left is the veteran who came home and stands in 3 front of the flag while the soldier to the right which 4 his head bowed, stands behind the flag and represents 5 those that did not return. The five stars in the top field represent the 6 7 five branches of the military and the veterans who 8 served in them. 9 Sacrifice,” communicates that we remember all of our 10 The inscription, “Service and veterans. Reverse 6 depicts a simple variation of the 11 12 great seal crowned with five stars representing the 13 five branches of the military. 14 “Prepared in War or in Peace,” is the motto from the 15 second design Circa 1780 with the great seal of the 16 United States. The inscription Reverse 8 depicts a field of stars above an 17 18 area with a single incused star positioned in the 19 center. 20 past, present and future with the lone incused star 21 representing the veteran who has made the ultimate 22 sacrifice in defending our country. The star symbolized all American veterans, The missing star www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 17 1 within the grid conveys the supreme sense of loss to 2 the nation. 3 is featured. 4 The inscription, “Service and Sacrifice,” Reverse 9 depicts a grid pattern of stars 5 extending to the rim and beyond with the inscription, 6 “From a Grateful Nation,” positioned in the center. 7 The seemingly endless group of stars symbolizes all 8 American veterans who have served our nation since its’ 9 founding to the present as well as those who will serve 10 11 in the future. Reverse 10 depicts five members of each of the 12 United States Armed Forces with the inscription, 13 “Service and Sacrifice.” 14 Reverse 11, another design identified by the 15 representative of the American Legion for its strength, 16 depicts an eagle, an oak wreath and a shield 17 representing strength, protection and courage 18 surrounding the inscription, “Honoring the Service and 19 Sacrifice of American Veterans.” 20 Reverse 12 takes its inspiration from the U.S. 21 Department of Veteran Affairs seal and depicts an eagle 22 clutching the American flag surrounded by olive and oak www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 18 1 leaves which represent honor and solidarity. The stars 2 and stripes within the letter V represent valor and 3 victory, while the letter itself is for veterans. 4 inscription, “Honoring the Service of American 5 Veterans,” is featured. The Reverse 13 depicts an Eagle bordered by the 6 7 American flag epitomizing our unity as a nation in 8 honoring our veterans. 9 stars symbolize the Armed Forces that exist to protect The American eagle and the five 10 our freedom and liberty. 11 of Freedom,” is featured. The inscription, “Protectors Reverse 15 takes inspiration from the U.S. 12 13 Department of Veteran Affairs seal and centrally 14 features an eagle watching the American -- the 15 Department of Veteran Affairs flags surrounded by olive 16 and oak leaves representing honor and solidarity. 17 five stars again symbolize the five branches of the 18 Armed Forces. This design was also identified by the 19 20 representative with the American Legion for its 21 strength. 22 The Reverse 16 presents a folded American flag to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 19 1 the viewer in honor of all the veterans who made the 2 ultimate sacrifice. 3 representing America’s gratitude and the torch 4 represents our freedom -- the freedom, our freedom that 5 veterans continue to ensure. 6 inscription, “Let us Never Forget.” 7 Below the flag is a laurel wreath Below the torch is the Reverse 17 shows two flags -- one honoring the 8 fallen veterans and the second flying in the wind for 9 present and future heroes. The laurel wreath 10 symbolizes gratitude for heroism. 11 “Let us Never Forget,” arcs across the top. 12 The inscription, And Reverse 18, another design identified by 13 the representative with the American Legion for its 14 strength, presents an eagle with its wings spread. 15 torch represents the prudence that our veterans 16 protect, the inscription, “United States of America and 17 in Honor of our American Veterans,” are featured. 18 The Reverses 19 and 19A recall the historical 19 legacy of American veterans from the Revolutionary War 20 to both World Wars. 21 military service are indicated through the device of 22 three soldiers dressed in uniforms associated with These significant eras of U.S. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 20 1 these major conflicts. When paired with -- there’s 14, the historical 2 3 legacy extends up to the present day. 4 “A Great Legacy of Courage,” and the quote by Benjamin 5 Franklin, “Where Liberty is, There is my Country,” 6 provide further insight into the purpose of the medal. Reverse 19 features the additional inscription 7 8 The inscription, of Benjamin Franklin. And finally Reverse 20 features the young girl 9 10 from Obverse 15 who is grown into a young woman who 11 thoughtfully considers a monument to significant 12 conflicts in the United States history. 13 remembers the veterans who served while continuing to 14 hold onto an olive branch and the hope of peace. She gratefully The inscription of “Preserving our Past,” arcs 15 16 over here while on the wall in front of her are the 17 inscriptions “American Revolution, War of 1812, 18 Mexican/American War, American Civil War, Spanish 19 American War, World War I, World War II, Korean War, 20 Vietnam War, Gulf War, and War on Terror,” 21 included. 22 are We’ve also provided for you in your packets as www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 21 1 well as here on the screen an indication of pairings 2 that when the artist created designs for this 3 assignment they intended so I’ll just quickly go 4 through those. The first pairing is of Obverse 1 and Reverse 5 6 1. 7 Obverse 3, Reverse 3; next Obverse 4, Reverse 4; next 8 Obverse 5 with Reverse 5; the next pairing shows 9 Obverse 5 again with Reverse 6; the next Obverse 6 with 10 The second pairing Obverse 2, Reverse 2; next Reverse 4A. 11 Another pairing -- Obverse 7 with Reverse 8; 12 another pairing again featuring Obverse 7 with Reverse 13 9; another pairing Obverse 8 with Reverse 10; another 14 pairing Obverse 9 with Reverse 11; Obverse 10 with 15 Reverse 12; another pairing again featuring Obverse 10 16 with Reverse 15. 17 Another pairing -- Obverse 11 with Reverse 13; 18 another pairing Obverse 12 with Reverse 16; Obverse 12 19 with Reverse 17; Obverse 13 with Reverse 18; Obverse 14 20 with Reverse 19; also Obverse 14 with Reverse 19A; 21 Obverse 15 with Reverse 20. 22 MR. SCARINCI: Thank you, thank you April. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 So November 14, 2018 Page 22 1 we’re going to try to keep this as brief as possible, 2 this is one medal that we’re talking about and we might 3 as well talk about the Obverse and the Reverse so you 4 know, I’ll go very briefly first and then Mary you can 5 follow-up. 6 You know I adore Reverse 5 and I think it’s 7 just brilliant as a design. 8 stripes representing the five branches of government 9 and you have the five branches of military service. You’ve got the five 10 The question is what to pair it with and you know, and 11 I don’t -- obviously I don’t like either -- I don’t 12 like anything with a wreath as an Obverse. 13 I mean the wreaths, you know, you kind of 14 associate more with Reverses, you know. 15 certainly live with Obverse 2 as a pairing with that or 16 I could live with Obverse 15 and that’s not typically 17 the kind of design I like, you know, but Obverse 15 -- 18 what’s appealing about it is it focuses on citizens, 19 this is depicted by a child and that’s really what it’s 20 all about. 21 22 I could It’s really all about protecting us as citizens and people and preserving our way of life and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 23 1 you know, and so I like that. 2 that citizen -- citizen element, you know in a coin, in 3 a design like this. 4 I like that, you know, But everything I’m doing is kind of working 5 around Reverse 5, so I’m hoping people are you know, 6 agree and think it’s as genius as I do or talk me out 7 of it. 8 the table. So with that said, Mary, and we’ll go around MS. LANNIN: 9 Alright, I’m sort of in vague 10 because this medal is to be given or purchased in 11 perpetuity. 12 the simpler the better. 13 of Reverse 5. 14 shows the loss of a human being in a very unique way. 15 I am of the -- my personal opinion is that I, too, like Donald’s choice I do think it’s very ingenious. It However, to go through more Reverses, I do 16 like Reverse Number 4 because it’s clean-looking, 17 Reverse Number 3 is also very clean-looking. 18 the Obverses, I’m going to deviate a little bit. 19 like Obverse Number 4, but there are some changes. 20 like the fact that it’s in our face, I like the angle 21 of it. 22 To get to I do I have Googled “Wreath of Admiration,” and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I November 14, 2018 Page 24 1 cannot find anything on that. 2 the roses on the three ring or whatever she is holding 3 up. 4 even though maybe it’s like considered to be Nike? I would also like to see that without the wings 5 MR. SCARINCI: 6 MS. LANNIN: 7 MR. SCARINCI: 8 MS. LANNIN: 9 I question the use of It’s not. It’s not. Compared to the narrative. Not in the narrative, that’s correct, but I do -- I do like the fact that it’s 10 something toward us. I gravitate away from us trying 11 to have the real people aspect that we see on 7 or 9, 12 you know, or even though I do like 11, and Donald’s 13 choice of 15. Twenty-five years from now what is all of that 14 15 going to look like? 16 wearing? 17 if we deliberately date ourselves and go back to our 18 classic design of Number 4 for the Obverse and Number 2 19 or Number 3, we’ve kind of gotten away from -- we made 20 it a little more timeless. 21 22 What are the soldiers going to be I think it’s going to be very dated. So those are my thoughts on that. Whereas I would say for Obverses 3, 4, 5 -- I’m sorry, Reverses, 3,4 and 5 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 25 1 and Obverses 2, 3, and 4 would be my choices to mix and 2 match and we can do all Obverses and all Reverses as 3 well, that’s it. 4 MR. VIOLA: Thank you, I think it should be 5 the simpler the better and so for my Obverse I like the 6 idea of combining 5 and 6. 7 the Reverses I like 4 and I like 4A, but I’m interested 8 to hear what the rest of the Committee thinks. 9 10 MR. SCARINCI: 5 is just and I like for Okay, Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you Mr. Chairman. 11 I very much like the simplicity of Number 5 Reverse. 12 think it is a little different and it would be a little 13 more timeless. 14 any particular branch of the service. 15 person and the loss of a person. 16 I We’re not designating with these images It’s just a So I think that this is quite dynamic and I 17 also like Reverse Number 6 again for its simplicity. 18 And in the beginning when I went through this portfolio 19 and I want to commend the artist for their work in this 20 time of remembrance. 21 And this meeting follows, you know, the twin 22 setting at a time when we were you know, thinking very www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 26 1 hard about our services and our losses. 2 liked Reverse 15 because of its more complicated but it 3 just seems to be saying a lot and when we get this 4 metal down to the smallest size I’m not sure if we’re 5 going to be able to see that little emblem on the 6 right. 7 So I really We’ll probably lose that which is too bad 8 because I do think this particular eagle with the flags 9 is very interesting so I like that. I also like 10 Reverse 12, so I’m kind of little bit all over the 11 place where I’m going from stark simplicity to a little 12 bit more elaboration. 13 And when we come to Obverse, in the beginning 14 I was a little unhappy with it -- the choices were a 15 little on the simple side, but Number 5 and Number 6 I 16 do have to agree with Mr. Miller that these are -- I’d 17 like to see something on there that says, “Honoring Our 18 Vets,”. It’s, I think, very important. 19 And this hopefully would be timeless so I 20 would agree that perhaps we take the two of these, so 21 we take the scored out of 5 maybe and out of 5, maybe 22 that adds a little bit more peace. So that is my -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 27 1 those are my comments. I must say that there -- oh we 2 have to remember with Obverse Number 4 if we pair that 3 with something that has a heavy Reverse, we’re not 4 going to get a good flow of metals, although this is a 5 really good, wonderful piece and I think the roses are 6 lost. So roses are for remembrance, is that the --? 7 MR. MORAN: 8 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 9 Roses are red. No, they are white, they can be white, there you go, thank you. MR. JANSEN: 10 Thank you alright, I’m looking at 11 this medal a little differently than we’ve looked at 12 commemoratives and so forth. 13 feel as though the challenge is to present designs 14 which invite into us something outside of us. In other commemoratives I This medal is different. 15 When I tried to put 16 myself in a place to get the emotions that I want this 17 medal to achieve, it’s not about inviting something 18 outside of me to become part of me, it’s actually 19 inviting something within me to feel validated. And that puts me in a different place in terms 20 21 of choosing our work and especially choosing the 22 symbols. Starting in the Obverse, my strong preference www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 28 1 on that basis is to Obverse 4 and when I analyze this - 2 - and I had a little trouble with the anatomy of the 3 grip and the arm may be just a little bit bulky even 4 though the perspective is a little challenging here, to 5 sculpt. The eyes are looking right at me and to me 6 7 that invokes me looking right at me and this image 8 becomes a validation of what I put into my service as a 9 veteran. And that makes it very powerful to me. 10 heard some comments on Obverse 5 and 6, neither of 11 these even invite that kind of introspection and 12 validation. I’ve They’re a symbol, they don’t touch me, they 13 14 come very flat to me. 15 with the preference in Number 8 as well as Number 3. 16 don’t think they’re good anatomic renderings of the 17 eagle. 18 I have anatomical challenges Number 2 is a strong design. It’s been 19 recycled, we’ve seen that before. It’s a strong 20 design, it’s a little bit again away from the personal 21 and more towards the eagle as a symbol of something 22 else so it doesn’t strike me. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I November 14, 2018 Page 29 1 As I go through the other Obverses the only 2 other designs that even touch the personal experience 3 of being a veteran would be Obverse 11 or 15 for I 4 think the obvious reasons. 5 pretty strongly on Obverse 4, “Honoring American’s 6 Veterans,” that’s enough text, it’s the key message and 7 that’s why I like it. 8 9 So I end up coming down On the Reverse I’m very supportive of Number 5 for some reason the energy in the two profiles is not - 10 - it’s not sharp enough, it is dulled energy in my 11 taking in the imagery and so it misses the mark in me. 12 I don’t like in Design 4, I don’t like the 13 shield transposed over the eagle with his wing over it, 14 the symbolism just doesn’t work for me and 4A is way 15 too cartoonish, especially for a large palette like 16 this medal is going to be. 17 Design Number 8 is actually striking to me 18 because whether as an observer, whether I take this 19 single star at the bottom as me and my experience 20 amongst the many, or whether I take it as the fallen, 21 as the experience of the lost comrade or otherwise, I 22 think it has a versatility there which hits both www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 30 1 possible marks. It’s very graphical and if I’m going for a 2 3 graphic design as 5 certainly is, I actually prefer 4 Design 8. 5 page, we can get too much text and it gets too busy and 6 I take 11 and 12 out for those reasons. 7 As I look at the other Reverses on the next Amongst the preferences expressed by a 8 representative here, I’d look at Design Reverse Number 9 15 as I think something that contributes although I’m 10 11 not sure it contributes that strongly. In Design 18 I kind of have trouble with the 12 torch floating in air. It disturbs me from an eye 13 control perspective. 14 frankly, leaning more towards Design Number 8 on the 15 Reverse and on the Obverse I come down pretty strongly 16 once again singularly on the really emotional power of 17 Design Obverse 4, thank you. So I ended up coming out quite 18 MR. SCARINCI: 19 MR. HOGE: Okay, thank you, Bob? Thank you. I think that there are 20 number of designs here that do honor to our veterans 21 and that we could be pleased with them. 22 has mentioned Number -- Obverse Number 10 which I www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 No one else November 14, 2018 Page 31 1 particularly like because it shows the veterans in the 2 posture of a salute and really what we’re doing is 3 trying to give a salute to our veterans. 4 And here these are not really uniform so 5 they’re not necessarily focused exclusively on the 6 contemporary time period. 7 future. 8 past. 9 little caps and the badges of the caps and so on. These might be well into the They could relate to people even from the The only bar uniform element is the use of the 10 And this is an unusual treatment of the flag 11 too combined with the royal wreath and the expression, 12 “Honoring U.S. Veterans,” is really what we want to 13 say. 14 something like this with Reverse 9 which we haven’t 15 discussed a great deal, but this is really expressing 16 the reason for this medal from a grateful national 17 honoring U.S. veterans. 18 And I would like to suggest a possible pairing of I mean this is a simplistic text, but it’s 19 really getting the message very strongly across. 20 a number of these other design elements from the 21 various medals are attractive. 22 but this is not portraying a veteran, this is a Now, Number 4 is attractive www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 32 1 strange-looking wigged female creature which may or may 2 not be victory or an angel or whatever. And the wreath is a very peculiar-looking one 3 4 -- it looks more suitable for, you know a new bridge’s 5 headdress or something. 6 the foreshortening that we see here. 7 coin, or a medal this is not really going to come 8 across as well as we might hope seeing it in the 9 drawing at this time. And also I have trouble with I think on a I think Number 5 and 6 for reasons that have 10 11 already been pointed out are not really appropriate for 12 an Obverse because the wreath is so traditionally 13 associated with a Reverse although these are attractive 14 in their simplicity. I would not go with Number 8 because this 15 16 looks like its submerged standing on the flag pole and 17 we know about bird droppings. 18 signs, while attractive, are really very busy. 19 9, although is one of the strong design preferences 20 expressed by the veterans, I think is really just too 21 busy. 22 And some of the other Number The eagle might be a little bit better there www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 33 1 although I have a problem with its legs and feet. 2 Number 11 of course, is a sort of heart-warming image 3 but I don’t know if it’s addressing the idea of the 4 veterans and honoring them so much as just, you know, 5 relief that they’re coming home. 6 Some of these others I think are a little bit 7 too simplistic or a little bit too war-like or too 8 complicated in some ways or others. 9 call attention also though to Number 16. I would like to This is the 10 message of, “Let us never Forget,” and that’s really 11 what honoring our veterans is all about. 12 And I prefer 16 to 17 because 17 is combining 13 two American flags and what’s the reason for the 14 duality there. 15 Forget,” this is the gesture of presenting the flag 16 when someone has died. 17 sacrifice and we see it there with the wreath and the 18 torch of remembrance. 19 And also Number 16 -- “Let us Never I think this is the ultimate So I think even though this might imply a 20 little bit of foreshortening problems, I think the 21 angle of the flag in the presentation of the hands 22 makes it work, so this is something that I would tend www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 34 1 to favor. I would not go with the traditional-looking 2 3 soldiers of the past and present from the Reverse 19 4 and Reverse 19A. 5 soldier is represented in incorrect posture for 6 shouldering his weapon, although I like the detail of 7 these things. So at any rate, so we have a number of 8 9 10 For one thing the 18th Century attractive designs of nice possibilities, that’s about it from my observation, thank you. 11 MR. SCARINCI: 12 MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Dennis? Thank you Mr. Chair. I will -- I 13 want to talk a little bit about how I approached my 14 study of this portfolio. 15 with my brother Mike on Veteran’s Day. 16 sergeant in the U.S. Marine Corp and anyone who’s known 17 me in a numismatist setting long enough, knows that 18 Mike is the person who introduced me to coin collecting 19 when I was going into Kindergarten, he was entering the 20 Marine Corps so he was always someone that I looked up 21 to. 22 I had the honor of talking He is a retired So I enjoyed my opportunity to get his www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 35 1 thoughts on this. 2 thoughts with you. 3 medal I think we have to keep in mind that it is going 4 to be an inch and a half, which is roughly the size of 5 a silver dollar and of course the one and a half inch 6 bronze and the three inch bronze. 7 And I’ll share some of those When it comes to detail on this If you take a look at some of the military 8 medals that the U.S. Mint has done in the past we can 9 really pack a lot of military detail into these small 10 plant chips. 11 Marine Bicentennial Medal which has an intricate battle 12 action scene -- the 2014 American Fighter Ace’s medal 13 which shows four busts and the 2016 Philippino Veterans 14 of World War II Medal which also shows multiple busts. 15 I would ask you to look at the 1975 And these all look good at an inch and a half 16 diameter so I was not overly concerned about an 17 abundance of detail in some of these designs. 18 quickly tell you some of the criteria as I look through 19 this portfolio, I discarded designs that focused too 20 much on combat operations at the expense of non-combat 21 roles. 22 Just to I think we have to keep in mind that the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 36 1 importance of support areas like medical corps, supply 2 corps, non-combat engineering, signal corps, finance, 3 military law enforcement to name just a few. 4 mention the military schematic turning roles. 5 immediately thought of Operation Unified Response in 6 Haiti after the 2010 earthquake which mobilized all 7 five branches of the military, delivered 19 million 8 tons of cargo to Haiti, set up hospitals and medical 9 response and evacuated thousands of people who needed 10 Not to I medical attention. So with that in mind, I discarded Obverses 5 11 12 and 14, possibly Obverse 1. I discarded designs that 13 focus too much on the memorial aspect of military 14 honor, not every service member dies in service or is 15 wounded. 16 traditional heroism honors. Not every member is even eligible for 17 I discarded designs that depended too much on 18 trite or overused symbolism so eagles, swords, shields, 19 laurels -- I don’t think these are automatic 20 disqualifications but I think if the design depends too 21 much on these elements I tended to lean away from them. 22 For the Obverses in particular, I gave greater www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 37 1 weight to designs that have a human element -- either 2 realistic or symbolic. 3 -- that appeals to collectors. 4 are active rather than static so I did prefer Obverse 5 10 for example where the veterans are saluting over the 6 similar Obverse 7. 7 us something that we haven’t seen before. 8 9 I think that appeals to people I preferred those that And I preferred designs that show So with these criteria in mind, I was drawn very strongly to Obverse 4 which is as some of our 10 colleagues have mentioned this -- it is very dramatic. 11 It shows a foreshortened view of a human figure that we 12 don’t see in American National Medals. 13 And as Erik pointed out, it casts the viewer 14 as an active participant in this medal experience, not 15 just an observer of a scene. 16 might be Nike might be Victory or Liberty or America, 17 depending on how the viewers interprets it, she’s 18 placing the wreath on the viewer’s head, so I think and 19 Erik I think you’ve summed this up nicely and you 20 confirmed my thoughts that this will make the medal 21 appealing to living veterans who receive the medal as a 22 gift for example. The winged Goddess who www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 38 Mary, I agree the wings are a bit problematic. 1 2 My preference would be to see them softened perhaps 3 which can be done and then we’re seeing the mints and 4 engravers do that, or have them deleted completely. 5 did also think immediately of Nike or the Goddess of 6 Victory but I think either softening or removing the 7 wings will make it so they don’t compete with the 8 wreath or the laurel. I And then for the Reverse, I actually prefer 9 10 Obverse 9 so I did not choose a Reverse from the 11 portfolio Reverses, but Obverse 9 I feel is rich in 12 symbolism. 13 branches. 14 small plant chip and it would look even more remarkable 15 on a larger three inch plant chip. 16 It shows each of the five military Again, we can show this level of detail on a It has an interesting, unusual vantage point 17 with the eagle looking upward. 18 would be to remove the grass to avoid the appearance 19 that the flag is touching the ground which we know is 20 not acceptable. 21 22 My one recommendation So those are my two recommendations and I’ll give you some of my brother Mike’s feedback. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 He also November 14, 2018 Page 39 1 liked Obverse 9 as he was looking through the portfolio 2 that stood out at him. 3 with respect, the pose is fresh and unusual, its’ 4 almost as if the veterans are on a pedestal. 5 as “A grateful nation looking up to its veterans,” and 6 said, “The symbolism feels good.” He says the eagle is looking up He saw it And another direct quote he said, “Whoever 7 8 drew this one had some good ideas and put a lot of 9 thought into it with the symbolism.” He also mentioned 10 Reverse 10 which shows all five branches of the 11 military and he and I both were struck by Reverse 12, 12 we found it to be a beautiful design and worthy of 13 special mention, but ultimately my recommendation will 14 be for Obverse 4 very strongly and Obverse 9 for the 15 Reverse. 16 MR. SCARINCI: 17 MR. MORAN: Thank you, Mike? Let me make some general comments 18 first as I looked at this package. 19 -- I went through it several times because it left me 20 cold, most of the time through the first two 21 renderings, looking at the designs. 22 I think one of the A lot of these designs are just a little bit www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 40 1 off in tune with the theme of now, honoring our 2 veterans. 3 veteran or coming home but not necessarily all of our 4 veterans all the time or all the veterans going 5 forward. 6 They honor specific aspects of being a I think also there are some technical issues 7 we need to be aware of and personal preferences on my 8 part at least. 9 over the board. First of all the inscriptions are all And I take issue with, “Where Liberty 10 is, there is my Country,” that hasn’t unfortunately 11 always been true and we need to stay away from that. 12 Some of the other inscriptions are wordy, 13 listing of the wars, what happens when we have another 14 one, if this medal is to stand the test of time we need 15 to stay away from that. 16 I think that inscriptions need to be simple, 17 straight-forward. 18 Veterans,” plain and simple, that’s what the purpose of 19 the medal is. 20 that a veteran has done -- he served and he sacrificed, 21 enough said. 22 On the Obverse, “Honoring America’s And on the back there are two things We don’t need to be flowery, leave the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 41 1 conjecture out of there, some of these inscriptions are 2 almost clunky because they try to make it a complete 3 sentence. The one thing that threw me for a loop the 4 5 most -- it came to me only today was that if this was a 6 difficult assignment for the artist in that they were 7 really designed for two palettes -- basically a silver 8 dollar and a three inch medal. Say Gods couldn’t do it, particularly if you 9 10 design from the large scale large and try to scale down 11 to a small. 12 design for the small scale and enlarge to the large 13 scale. 14 It generally doesn’t work. It’s easier to And some of these look reasonably good to us, 15 blown up on the screen, but I’m going to take issue 16 with some of you that said that they’ll scale down. 17 don’t think they will and I don’t want to see the risk 18 because I think you get five heads on the silver 19 dollar, you’re going to lose a lot of the detail that 20 we see here, particularly the ages of the veterans or 21 their ethnicity. 22 I Another thing you get caught up with when you www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 42 1 try and do some of this is you get caught with being 2 politically correct as to all the races that are 3 involved because its all of us in the United States -- 4 one big country and you don’t want to leave any group 5 out. 6 out, so it’s not as easy an assignment as I thought it 7 was going to be when I picked up the book. You also don’t want to leave any of the services And over the last -- over the entire weekend I 8 9 struggled with it, and I came down to on the Obverse 10 Number 4 because I think it argues in order to have 11 both sizes addressed, an allegory rather than trying to 12 include everybody, all the services and everything 13 else. To me this is the best one as the people in 14 15 front of me have argued, it does involve the viewer. 16 And a lot of our medals don’t do that. 17 it’s good, the inscription is simple, “Honoring our 18 Veterans.” 19 I really think In talking with Dennis yesterday over some 20 really nasty black beans the wings probably -- they 21 really get in the way of that arm and I really think 22 that they can do that without running the risk of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 43 1 looking like it’s foreshortened and they’re good with 2 it recognizing the size of the arm as it comes toward 3 you. 4 But if you were to take the wings away all 5 that would be negative space and I can envision it much 6 more effective with negative space for just the reason 7 I agree with Mary, the roses are red, they’re not for 8 metals and I’m afraid even if you do it lightly, maybe 9 you can, you lose the aspect of it. 10 The whole point of the medal is its reaching 11 at you, those wings tell you nothing. 12 nothing for what is going on with the medal, the eyes 13 are at you and the arm is reaching out to you. 14 They really do So I’m not going to clutter up the rest of it, 15 some of them -- they’re cute, the litter girl hugging 16 the guy -- well he’s not going to have his sunglasses 17 on while he’s hugging his daughter. 18 you say on that, but it’s a good example of not quite 19 on theme for what we’re trying to do. I don’t care what 20 Somewhere else -- I’m sure there’s someplace 21 where its’ perfect for that design because it’s a good 22 one, but it’s just not quite inclusive enough in the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 44 1 story we’re trying to tell. So on the Reverse I came in here thinking that 2 3 well, you take Obverse 8 and you get that inscription 4 off of there and if the eagles stand up, you don’t get 5 in such -- you avoid that embarrassing pose that we’ve 6 all referred to here. But I get back to listening to all of you and 7 8 it sorted it out for me. 9 8. And it’s Reverse 5 or Reverse 5 reminds me of what we did with the CIA and the 10 OSA and it really is about silhouettes. 11 are all around us, it’s not even particularly one -- 12 I’ve told you the stories last summer, the people last 13 night, stories of my next door neighbor is a Vietnam 14 vet. 15 Orange, yet first smile on his face every day. 16 happy to be alive. 17 Our veterans He’s gone through hell post-war from Agent He’s Most of his platoon that came back isn’t. See 18 it’s faceless, Donald said it. It’s good and the other 19 thing is it pairs well with Number 4 the Obverse. 20 I’ll also say and I will give points to Number 8 21 because there is something about that missing star and 22 down below that is somewhat -- tells the same story. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 But November 14, 2018 Page 45 It just doesn’t have any less direct and I 1 2 think both of these designs in my opinion will scale up 3 and not scale down and I think that’s where we need to 4 go. 5 MR. SCARINCI: 6 MR. URAM: Thank you, Tom? Thank you Mr. Chairman. When I 7 looked at any of the portfolios or whatever, I kind of 8 did a depth briefing of them, you know, without trying 9 to look at each one individually but which one sends a 10 message and then after hearing the -- April’s 11 discussion and what everything means, try to put them 12 all together that way. 13 and I don’t know that you know, that’s what we’re doing 14 here in recognizing that what we’re you know, trying to 15 achieve. 16 Medals are meant to commemorate I do like Number 5 and Number 6. I was trying 17 to figure out how I can get the stars and place the 18 sword and this and that but I also liked the fact that 19 based on the description, the 50 states with the 20 fortress and the edging, I really liked that. 21 22 So I do like the sword, I do like the idea of the simplicity. I think it tells the story. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I stayed November 14, 2018 Page 46 1 away from all the ones that had images because it just 2 reminded me too much of a lot of the commemoratives 3 we’ve done. 4 all these different commemoratives over the years, and 5 it also keeps us away from trying to as what’s been 6 said, trying to distinguish one group of military 7 versus another and ethnicity and all of that. 8 9 I mean we’ve done 95, we’ve done you know, So I stayed away from all of those with images for that particular reason. I just think that this is 10 a powerful coin medal no matter what the diameter might 11 be, it’s going to fit. 12 stars in and then that’s when I gravitated to Reverse 13 15 so there are the stars with the eagle and so forth 14 representing the image of the veterans as well with 15 their depiction there of their logo. 16 And I thought how can I get the And I like Number 12 just because of the 17 victory but it’s just too busy -- there’s just too much 18 going on there so my pairings are going to lean more 19 towards Number 5 and then I still pick up the stars on 20 15 which represent all the military and that kind of 21 becomes all-inclusive without having a depiction of any 22 particular image, thank you Mr. Chair. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 47 1 MR. SCARINCI: 2 MS. SALMON: Okay, Robin, your turn. I was thinking who this is for, 3 who is the audience and I liked the word “celebrating” 4 as opposed to “honoring”. 5 “Celebrating America’s Veterans,” the eagle image I 6 don’t think will change as a symbol of the United 7 States, the five stars, the five branches of the 8 service -- it’s a nice clean design. Looking at Obverse 3, And I liked many of the other ones for other 9 10 reasons but I kept coming back to Obverse 3 for the 11 reasons I’ve just said. 12 Reverse 3 also has a nice clean design as far as I’m 13 concerned with all of the elements that would be 14 necessary. 15 on the Obverse, but I like the Reverse 8 as well, 16 “Service and Sacrifice,” the single star, it’s very 17 powerful and I don’t think that that symbolism would be 18 lost on the audience. 19 As far as the Reverse goes The lettering says and supports -- what’s So I like Obverse 3 and I could go with 20 Reverse 3 or Reverse 8. 21 MR. SCARINCI: 22 MR. GILL: Thank you, Sam? Well I’m -- Robin and I are the new www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 48 1 players here believe it or not I agree exactly with 2 what she said. 3 think what it’s like to portray this to veterans 4 themselves. 5 human depictions here, I don’t think they’re necessary 6 and if I look at Number 4 with all due respect I think 7 it’s confusing, I don’t know what a veteran would even 8 think about. I like something simple. I’m trying to I too like Tom tried to stay away from the It’s artistic but it’s just not -- I like just 9 10 a simple approach so I like Number 3, I could live with 11 5, 6 because they’re simple. 12 “Celebrating America’s Veterans,” that’s Number Obverse 13 Number 3 and then I was going to go to Reverse 6 14 because I just like the continuing message “Celebrating 15 America’s Veterans, Prepared in War and Peace.” 16 liked those two, that pair. At first I thought about I But, in any case, for the Obverse of the 3, 5, 17 18 or 6 and then for the Reverse I liked Number 3, I liked 19 that “Honor and Valor Service and Sacrifice,” it spells 20 it out the appearance. 21 got an interesting symbol there and then I liked Number 22 9. I liked Number 8 as well, it’s www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 49 1 2 So I could pair any of those like that and that’s where I would end up. 3 MR. SCARINCI: 4 take a minute to vote. 5 what’s going on? MR. URAM: 6 7 Thank you, okay, why don’t we Are you all familiar with Yeah, I was going to ask, yeah, that they know how to score. 8 MR. WEINMAN: Yeah why don’t we explain the 9 scoring process to our new members. Essentially we’re 10 going to ask everybody to check in. This is a scoring 11 based on each design. 12 it. 13 it’s worthy of moving forward to a 3, which you feel 14 strongly about. 15 It’s how strongly you feel about It could be zero which means you just don’t think This is not the best advice we always have to 16 admit is feel free to score every design you feel 17 something about because the strength of your commitment 18 helps us in making a recommendation down the road. 19 it’s generally a mistake to only say I like only this 20 design therefore I’m going to give it a 3 and 21 everything else nothing. 22 It doesn’t particularly provide quality www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 So November 14, 2018 Page 50 1 advice. 2 MR. JANSEN: Greg, I would take issue with 3 that because that’s the reason we put the merit in was 4 to show dimensionality of things we like. 5 numerical score is the selection -- winner take all 6 strategy. 7 MR. WEINMAN: 8 MR. JANSEN: 9 MR. WEINMAN: The From our standpoint -It’s a total. It’s a -- I can say from our 10 standpoint I think it’s more useful to us when there 11 are more points. 12 CCAC members standpoint, if there’s no obviously no 13 one’s looking over your shoulder, therefore score the 14 designs on a 0, 1, 2, or 3 as you feel fit. 15 I will say I understand that from the From our standpoint I can communicate that 16 it’s more beneficial to us when you -- when there’s a 17 broad range of scores across the board because it shows 18 us strength as opposed to everybody jumping on one or 19 none. 20 21 22 That said, -- merit is MR. GILL: So merit means you think it has merit. MR. WEINMAN: Yes merit is simply a radio box www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 51 1 that you can chuck. 2 because we have a staff of in house artists and we have 3 a contingent of contract artists. 4 are evaluated each year based on their -- a number of 5 factors, among them being their success with Committees 6 and how their designs are viewed. 7 The reason we put that there is The contract artists Therefore when you check the box there it 8 helps us be able -- it helps us communicate with them 9 that although their design may not have been one that 10 was successful for this particular project, it was one 11 that did in fact enjoy some success with the Committee. 12 It sends a message that that is a good try, we liked 13 it, it just may not be right for this particular 14 project. 15 That said, the other rule that has been 16 unofficially put into place is that for a design to 17 gain garner the recommendation of the Committee, 18 generally it needs to have 50% plus 1 of the potential 19 votes because there are 11 members voting, the 20 potential number is 33 votes so therefore the design 21 would require 17 -- a score of 17 votes to be the 22 recommended design. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 52 That said, even if a design does not get 17 1 2 votes, the Committee will be invited to -- or the Chair 3 will generally entertain Motions after the voting. 4 when a Motion could be displayed not garnering enough 5 votes, I move that we recommend Design X as our 6 recommendation despite that. And And sometimes based on other considerations a 7 8 Motion like that will pass and that turns out to be 9 what we recommend, what the Committee recommends to the 10 Secretary and then our connection to that. MR. SCARINCI: 11 12 or any other comments? 13 MR. GILL: 14 MR. SCARINCI: 15 MR. GILL: 16 Well I have one more question. it has merit but you might not give it a score at all? MR. SCARINCI: 18 MS. LANNIN: 22 Correct, correct, correct, yes. Yes, but well drawn it just didn’t. MALE SPEAKER: 20 21 Go ahead. You might check something that says 17 19 Does anyone have any questions You want to keep the artist in the loop. MR. MORAN: I gave merit to the little girl www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 53 1 hugging the father, wrong place good design. 2 MR. SCARINCI: Yeah I typically understand 3 what Greg says, I typically since I know best right, I 4 typically you know, just take pick the best design -- 5 MR. URAM: Let’s be honest. 6 MR. SCARINCI: You know, and then with the 7 other designs that I like you know, I make sure I note 8 the merit, I give the merit so that when they get the 9 merit, you know, they can tell the artist. As for the 10 others that get a zero and no merit, we just all know 11 they’re garbage. 12 MR. WEINMAN: I think it’s also important -- 13 it’s important to note that this is the tool, the 14 scoring process is not a statutory structure, it’s 15 simply a tool the Committee uses. 16 end all, so even if there is a design that somehow 17 because of how the members vote, does in fact garner 18 the most votes. 19 Ergo, it’s not an It isn’t necessarily the design the Committee 20 recommends if by a Motion they feel that it doesn’t 21 communicate what seems to be the sense of the 22 Committee. It’s merely a tool for the Committee to use www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 54 1 in making its recommendations and it’s a tool that 2 helps us in making our ultimate recommendation to the 3 Secretary, so hopefully that’s -- 4 MR. SCARINCI: Any other -- any other MS. STAFFORD: Were there any questions for 5 6 questions? 7 the representative at the American Legion, Scott Miller 8 or Scott you heard the conversation with regard to the 9 designs that the Committee members were honing in on, 10 you’re welcome to make any comments now if there’s 11 something you feel is very important before they score, 12 otherwise once we tabulate we can also come to you as 13 they begin to make their recommendation -- do you have 14 anything you’d like to add at this point? 15 MR. MILLER: I actually don’t. I appreciate 16 you know, -- I appreciate everyone’s comments 17 regarding, you know, how they’re viewing the designs. 18 Thank you for allowing the American Legion to be part 19 of the process. 20 American Legion feels very strongly with a couple of 21 the Committee members that mentioned staying away from 22 individual groups of people and just from an exclusion I will say that as a whole, the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 55 1 perspective. 2 Other than that I think all the other points 3 were you know, very well made. I understood all of 4 them. 5 that the organization’s perspective from just the 6 individual piece to that, that’s really all that I 7 would add from the organizational perspective. I think that you know, like I said understanding 8 MS. STAFFORD: 9 MR. URAM: Okay, thank you very much. I have to run, thank you everyone, 10 have a good holiday. I have a queen dinner tonight and 11 I’m going to try to actually get back. Pardon me? 12 MALE SPEAKER: 13 MR. URAM: 14 Before it snows. Before it snows. So have a good holiday. 15 MR. SCARINCI: 16 MR. WEINMAN: Absolutely, thank you Tom. So because Tom did vote 17 therefore he’s still part of the equation and we 18 thought -- do you want to take a brief recess and we’ll 19 tabulate the votes. 20 (Cross talk). 21 Before we, real quickly, before we move on, I 22 just want to -- I was negligent earlier to mention for www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 56 1 the record that my colleague Liz Young is the project 2 counsel for this program and she’s in the room as well. MR. SCARINCI: 3 Okay, so why don’t we while 4 Greg is tabulating, okay, well let us talk about Weir 5 Farm? MS. STAFFORD: 6 Okay so just we wanted to share 7 with the Committee as you know we brought a revised 8 portfolio of candidate designs for the America the 9 Beautiful Quarter for Weir Farms which is in 10 Connecticut and we received your comments and we 11 appreciate that. So the development process that portfolio also 12 13 goes to the Department of Interior and after closer 14 look they just made a request that any design that 15 includes the inscription which when you saw it, many of 16 them had an inscription that said, “National Park for 17 the Arts.” 18 They requested that that inscription 19 specifically instead be “A National Park for Art.” And 20 while it’s a small change, it’s incredibly important to 21 them because while Weir Farm is very unique in its 22 mission, it is not the only national park or national www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 57 1 site that has to do with the arts and so we just wanted 2 to make sure that it distinguished that. 3 4 5 So as they move forward to the Secretary for consideration we would make that change. MR. WEINMAN: Right and so we thought it was 6 important -- well it’s not the kind of edit that would 7 need re-review by the CCAC as long as we’re having a 8 public meeting it seemed appropriate to put that back 9 on the public record that we will be honoring the 10 Department of Interior and making the edit in the 11 inscription they requested. 12 MR. SCARINCI: 13 MR. MORAN: 14 Any questions on this topic? Do you want a Motion or a verbal? Motion to Approve. 15 MS. SCARINCI: 16 MR. HOGE: 17 MR. SCARINCI: Unaminous? 18 MALE SPEAKER: Yes it is. 19 MR. SCARINCI: Okay, so unanimous. 20 MR. WEINMAN: 21 22 Yes, that’s always a good idea. So moved. Actually two more, there are two more, your report and American Innovators. MR. SCARINCI: Oh right, right, right. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Do you November 14, 2018 Page 58 1 want to talk about -- which one do you want to do 2 first? 3 actually get this done if it’s possible. 4 Let’s talk about the annual report, so we can Has -- by now everybody has seen the annual 5 report with the testing of interview right, have you 6 seen the document? 7 annual report as well? Oh you have. 8 MR. GILL: 9 MR. SCARINCI: 10 Sam have you read the Just glanced at it. Okay, that’s fine, that’s fine. You know and this is due soon right? 11 FEMALE SPEAKER: 12 MR. SCARINCI: 13 FEMALE SPEAKER: 14 MR. SCARINCI: Yes. It’s due like -It’s due like last month. The truth is so let’s try to 15 get it done and then vote for it today and the only 16 thing that you know, if anyone has anything to add or 17 to change, let’s talk about it. 18 made for the year 2021 was the Albert Einstein, Albert 19 Einstein received -- it’s 100th anniversary of his 20 Nobel prize. 21 probably to you as well, Julie from Mel Wacks who runs 22 the Jewish American Hall of Fame Medals and he seems to The suggest that I That suggestion came to me and I guess www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 59 1 be putting a group together that includes Princeton 2 University and you know, as well with his organization 3 to lobby for you know, for a commemorative coin as part 4 of the subject. 5 So you know since I’m from New Jersey and 6 since Albert Einstein has never been depicted on an 7 American coin before, you know, I wouldn’t mind giving 8 him some air support, and lobby Congress to try to get 9 that done. 10 So you know and I open the floor for 11 discussion and feel free to disagree. 12 so you can definitely disagree. 13 MR. MORAN: 14 MR. SCARINCI: 15 MR. MORAN: 16 MR. SCARINCI: 17 MR. JANSEN: It’s not my idea Do you want the Motion? If you feel it’s appropriate. So moved. Is there discussion, go ahead? It’ll bring something out there 18 that might fold into the Motion and as I saw those 19 recommendations there was one in particular that I 20 honestly feel was rather self-serving to the Committee 21 and if we’re making Motions to make last minute changes 22 here, I don’t think it’s appropriate or an actual www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 60 1 scheme to recommend a commemorate for the commemorative 2 assets to the bids or something along the coinage 3 dimension. 4 MR. SCARINCI: 5 MR. JANSEN: 6 MR. MORAN: Well historically I think you will find that man is not happy with that. MALE SPEAKER: 9 not sure when it passes the hurdle of national. MR. SCARINCI: 12 13 next. 14 particular thing? If not Motion. MR. MORAN: 16 MR. SCARINCI: 17 favor? 18 -- Okay let’s talk about that First is there any other discussion on this 15 19 That follows ours. MR. JANSEN: It’s an interesting fact but I’m 10 11 I think that’s interesting but I think it’s a little bit self-serving. 7 8 Let’s do that then. So moved. Seconded, so all those in Opposed anyone, okay, so the second issue is to MR. JANSEN: To strike the recommendation at a 20 national level about the assets transferred to the -- I 21 can’t remember the exact counts for instance. 22 MR. SCARINCI: Any discussion? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Can we see the November 14, 2018 Page 61 1 votes specifically in the report? 2 somewhere. 3 MR. JANSEN: I know I have it I think it cheapens the 4 seriousness with which we approach the challenge of 5 making recommendations. 6 7 MS. LANNIN: I will trying to include everyone’s recommendations. 8 MR. SCARINCI: 9 MR. MORAN: I appreciate that. I think I’m on steady ground 10 historically when I say the more complex -- with the 11 net assets starting this. 12 MR. SCARINCI: Oh so there is an annual 13 report, okay so here’s the annual report. This is in 14 the annual report, for what year was that? 15 There are two programs that have already been enacted. 16 MS. LANNIN: 17 MALE SPEAKER: 18 2018. Keep scrolling down. What are we looking at for this BOOK, CCAC activities? 19 MS. LANNIN: 20 MR. SCARINCI: No. Recommended medals, I think it 21 was commemoratives not medals. 22 annual report for 2018? Where is this in the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 62 1 MS. LANNIN: I don’t have it in front of me. 2 MR. JANSEN: I think our charge is five more 3 years. MR. SCARINCI: 4 5 100TH anniversary of the U.S. Mint’s transfer of assets to the Smithsonian. MALE SPEAKER: 6 Factually I am not disputing 7 it, I just don’t think it rises to a level of national 8 interest. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 9 Well folks, you know 10 what it’s a suggestion. 11 put something in its place so that we have? MALE SPEAKER: 12 We could strike it but can we If I were someone on the Hill 13 reading this, looking for ideas that would cause me 14 pause. 15 MALE SPEAKER: We have three of them up here 16 right now, you’d have to go in blockade, Marshall Plan, 17 I think you just delete it. 18 19 MR. SCARINCI: is there a Motion to delete? 20 MR. MARAN: 21 MR. SCARINCI: 22 Do you want to just delete it, So moved. Motion to delete, seconded it, all those in favor to delete, anybody who is opposed to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 63 1 deleting? Okay. Are there any other changes so that 2 Motion carries, we’re going to delete that anniversary 3 as the start of assets. 4 modifications to the proposed annual report -- anyone? Are there any other 5 Seeing none. 6 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 7 put your our recommendation in here on this? 8 MR. SCARINCI: 9 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 10 On this do we need to Yeah they’re going to do that. They’re going to do that? MR. SCARINCI: 11 Yeah, they’re going to include 12 Einstein and we moved, okay, is there a Motion to 13 approve the annual report as edited today? 14 MR. JANSEN: So moved. 15 MR. SCARINCI: 16 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 17 MR. SCARINCI: Seconded, Jeanne. Seconded. All those in favor, any 18 opposed? 19 our prior Chairman Mary for putting the effort into 20 that. 21 thank you on behalf of the Committee. 22 Unanimously approved and done. Thank you to It’s thankless work but nevertheless I’ll say MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: And also I would like to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 64 1 commend Mary on what she did to be so inclusive about 2 all the programs that we did. 3 to explain all of that. 4 MS. LANNIN: 5 MR. SCARINCI: She had a nice paragraph Thank you. A lot of work went into this 6 and you know compliments your TBT Mary for the way you 7 handled it, your inclusiveness, your considered 8 everybody’s views and incorporated those views and you 9 know I think it’s appreciated and so this is done. 10 We have scoring. 11 MS. LANNIN: 12 MR. SCARINCI: Oh good. So before we talk about -- well 13 actually before we talk about scoring because I guess 14 we’re going to want to say a lot of things about that. 15 So let’s talk about the scoring and so I’ll announce 16 each score. 17 You want to triple check -- okay why don’t you 18 triple check and we’ll talk, why don’t we -- talk 19 innovations for a moment while she’s triple checking. 20 21 22 So to frame the issue of innovations okay we have the Innovation Program and -MR. WEINMAN: Yeah you can say you saw it, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 65 1 2 yeah, yeah. MR. SCARINCI: And we had the privilege today 3 of previewing the actual coin for the first year of the 4 program and I think it’s -- I think it’s fairly 5 unanimous that it’s a very attractive design. 6 know, we thank the mint for really taking the time, 7 going the extra step and taking a program that Congress 8 mandated and really doing a service to America by 9 producing you know, what I think has turned out to be a So you 10 wonderful first coin in a series that has some promise 11 of success. 12 So that being said, the series is held 13 together by its common Obverse. 14 decisions left to make as to the Reverse and that is 15 number one -- question number one for consideration, do 16 we feel that we need to have a template for the Reverse 17 for the designs to fill or do we want to leave the 18 Reverse as a blank slate and let the artist do as they 19 wish with the Reverse for the rest of the series? 20 MS. STAFFORD: We I think have two And specifically that has to do 21 with the two required inscriptions, “United States of 22 America,” and then the name of the jurisdiction, for www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 66 1 2 example the state’s name. MR. SCARINCI: Correct, so those two items 3 have to be in the Reverse of every coin, the question 4 is do you want them in the form of a template similar 5 to the National Park’s template where we decided on -- 6 we actually have the joy of seeing the pattern which is 7 for the purposes of the new members, one of the cool 8 things about being on this Committee is we get to see 9 patterned coins, we get to see them in the way they 10 have historically been intended and their historical 11 purpose which is to see what something would look like 12 before it gets mass manufactured, so that’s a very cool 13 perk for us. 14 We get to see it but we don’t get to 15 photograph it and we don’t even get really to talk 16 about it very much, so that is cool. 17 is do we want a template here for these items or let 18 the artist just incorporate them in the design, that’s 19 question number 1. 20 So, the question And question number 2 is we had discussed a -- 21 the concept of a privy mark and there has never been a 22 privy mark on American coins. This would be the first www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 67 1 time there would be a privy mark on the coin. 2 question is sub-question A -- do we want to do a privy 3 mark on the Reverse of the coin? The 4 Sub-question B -- if we do want to do a privy 5 mark should it be in the same location of every coin so 6 that the coin has a consistent look on the Reverse or 7 should we put it -- should we just have an instruction 8 generally to put it somewhere in the design in more of 9 a where’s Waldo approach to finding the privy mark? 10 So question 1, question 2 A and B, how do we 11 all feel about it. I think I’m going to go around the 12 room like this and we’re going to start with Mary. MS. LANNIN: 13 14 template. 15 last 15 years? Okay, so question number 1 for Are you putting a common font explaining the 16 MR. SCARINCI: 17 a common font of some sort, yeah. 18 MS. LANNIN: If it’s a template it would be Okay, I like the idea of 19 anchoring this series with a privy mark. 20 we need to remove the idea of the template for artist’s 21 freedom in being able to put the privy mark wherever he 22 or she might think it fits best within the design. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I think that November 14, 2018 Page 68 There may be a case for instance with New 1 2 Jersey gets the lightbulb for Thomas Edison, possible a 3 more antique type font may be used as part of that that 4 would enhance that invention or innovation. 5 necessarily feel strongly about a common font. 6 everything should be left open to the artist but I 7 would like to see a privy mark of a year. MR. SCARINCI: 8 9 So I don’t I think How do you feel about the common template? 10 MR. VIOLA: I would like to see a privy mark. 11 MR. SCARINCI: 12 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Jeanne? I agree, I think we 13 should have a privy mark. 14 all innovative with the series and if we leave the 15 template off we are allowing the artist to -- have a 16 little bit more freedom and again this is kind of an 17 innovative technique so if we do these -- do them here, 18 with innovative series, so I do, I do agree with the 19 privy and the lack of template and that way they can 20 use whatever font the artist wants. MR. SCARINCI: 21 22 I think it would be first of Privy in the same place or any place? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 69 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 1 2 should just be there. 3 MR. JANSEN: 4 Any place. I think it The where’s Waldo option, where’s Mary option, okay. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 5 It’s going to make a big 6 difference in what happens with the negative space, you 7 know, if there is negative space then suddenly the 8 privy mark should be applied, not stamped in the back. MR. SCARINCI: 9 MR. JANSEN: 10 Okay, Erik? I go with no template. The 11 series about innovation and the best art, let’s let the 12 best art innovate it. 13 and the same thing goes with the font as far as I’m 14 concerned. 15 unless there was a hard physical template. 16 hard physical template to carry the art forward into 17 the font. I have a question on the privy We’ve never held feet to fire on a font Without a 18 On a privy mark, in general I just would be 19 curious what does a privy mark mean to the members of 20 this Committee? 21 mean? 22 Open question seriously, what does it MR. SCARINCI: I’ll let Bob and Dennis answer www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 70 1 2 that. MR. HOGE: Traditionally it’s an indication of 3 control, internal mint control which meant something 4 about the official who was responsible for the quality 5 of the issue. 6 I don’t -- there’s really not a strong need for a privy 7 mark, it’s just something that might be appealing to 8 the collector. 9 10 We don’t really have that issue here so MR. MORAN: MR. HOGE: What would it look like? That’s my next question, we talked 11 about this a little bit in terms of there is no privy 12 mark on the first issue but the design incorporates a 13 series of gears and we were thing this gear idea could 14 then be conveyed in the subsequent issues as being a 15 form of privy mark tying all the issues together with 16 the first one. 17 MR. SCARINCI: 18 MR. TUCKER: Dennis? There actually is precedent for a 19 privy punch mark used on one of our American platinum 20 and eagles if I remember correctly. 21 22 MS. STAFFORD: It was an eagle. Yeah in the Reverse it did not feature an eagle, it privy mark was included. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 71 MR. TUCKER: 1 A historical privy mark, it was a 2 punch from the old Philadelphia Mint. 3 mention that for the record just so we don’t think that 4 this is something completely new. Mr. JANSEN: 5 I would just I think there was actually 6 another precedent in the Reverse of the Franklin half 7 dollar. 8 Reverse so they dropped the -- 9 MR. MORAN: It was discovered there is an eagle in the Exactly, still none the less. I’m 10 a bit confused as to where we’re going with this privy 11 mark because as I recall the original conversation the 12 privy mark came up within the context of how can we 13 finesse getting the date on these coins because it’s 14 not mandated except on royal mandate, collectors are 15 not going to like it. 16 One of the things we talked about was using a 17 privy mark as a substitute for a particular year and in 18 that case you would change the privy mark annually over 19 the 14 years but use one consistently for each year. 20 That gives that privy mark a reason to be in the 21 design, other than just being decorative. 22 Where we’re going now it’s just another www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 72 1 decorative thing in the design which like the mint 2 marks the initials -- I don’t think it necessarily does 3 anything unless it tells you something. 4 MR. SCARINCI: 5 in just a little while. 6 MR. MORAN: 7 MR. TUCKER: 8 9 We’re going to get back to you You’ve had enough of me, alright. Oh yes, see that’s was all I had to say about that. MR. JANSEN: So that was the essence of where 10 my question was going. Why a privy mark is it really a 11 privy mark or is it a mandatory artistic element we’re 12 invoking that the artist put somewhere? 13 And I’m not really fond of the later one. 14 had heard an idea floated at one point as I kind of 15 went through this with some folks. 16 mark if there is a patent number tied to the 17 innovation, in which case I think the gears is a very 18 reasonable idea. 19 I Perhaps a privy I don’t know that it’s the best or the worst, 20 it’s a reasonable idea and that question I would think 21 would be best asked of the Committee within the state 22 that’s promoting that idea whatever, because not all www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 73 1 innovations are patented. 2 And so I think that was one of the ideas that 3 the privy mark was floated around and in that case it 4 begins to conform to what I think Robert you described 5 almost as a guarantee of assay, like a counterpunch 6 might have been in an after assay sense in that it 7 provides providence to the innovation, and in that 8 sense in the context of innovation is a sense of assay. 9 I would before that -- as a constant, not a 10 day driven mark, put wherever someone wants to and it 11 adds to the collecting community, I think it adds an 12 additional dimension. 13 of collecting it adds another dimension to understand 14 complicate perhaps, or add interest to this series. 15 If education is the foundation MR. TUCKER: But Erik, what if there is no 17 MR. JANSEN: Then there is no privy mark. 18 MR. TUCKER: Okay because again it’s a major 16 patent? 19 if I dare use the term assay, of the innovation, a 20 dimension of the innovation. 21 22 MS. STAFFORD: So the way you just described the measure, so the privy mark as one point was in art www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 74 1 it grew out of being an artist’s mark, whether it moved 2 away from being an artist, it identified the locale, we 3 have recent precedent for it indicating a consistency 4 across a program although the design elements changed 5 as the American eagle, so the last time we met the idea 6 -- I think we stepped forward off of that idea and you 7 said it so well, I wish I could -- 8 MR. JANSEN: 9 MS. STAFFORD: 10 Well I could say it again so. I wish I could repeat it as artfully that for example. 11 MR. JANSEN: 12 MS. STAFFORD: For example. For example the gear, if that 13 is a convention that if that is a convention because we 14 know the design -- has not been made public, but if 15 that is a convention on the design and it features and 16 it’s featured to refer to innovation, forward progress 17 and how the nation worked together to move forward as 18 individual states but also as a collective. 19 If that’s setting this up as a symbol, we 20 wondered if with your reference to assay like a stamp 21 of approval as far as an innovation, when these states, 22 when the governors, when the Secretary comes together www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 75 1 to identify innovations that are significant to the 2 state that you could connect those ideas across the 3 series through for example, using a mark like that that 4 was consistent across the Reverses although the 5 innovations themselves would be why. 6 MR. JANSEN: Right, right, but I think there 7 needs to be a -- to use a legal term there has to be a 8 bright line here or a bright box because if it this 9 innovation fits in that box there’s only the document 10 inside of this bright line and a related patent was 11 issued. 12 So maybe there’s an innovation and I’m just 13 going to make this up because I don’t know what 14 innovations are out there, but let’s say there’s an 15 innovation for a way to juice an orange -- I’m just 16 making this up. 17 Maybe you’re Florida and that’s there. Well you know there’s like trade secrets and 18 things that don’t get patented, still a great 19 innovation, headed to the economy, they may like it, 20 the governor endorses it, but it isn’t patented. 21 22 And the reason I really anchored the bright line to the patent here is because the 2018 issue is www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 76 1 all about the first patent issued so it ties into the 2 dimensionality of the program. And not to say that patented or not patented 3 4 should drive the decision, or make an innovation better 5 than another one, it’s just another way of adding 6 interest to the program in my view and carries forth 7 the concept of someone that stands for the goodness of 8 this and that someone in this case happens to be George 9 Washington’s system of federal patent rights. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 MR. TUCKER: But does that not make a judgment MR. JANSEN: Absolutely not, absolutely not. against? Democracy is a great innovation, no one patented it. MR. TUCKER: But if we are saying that the privy mark is a mark of endorsement or -MR. JANSEN: It’s not a mark of endorsement, it’s a mark of. 18 MR. TUCKER: But that’s what you just said. 19 MR. JANSEN: It’s a mark of assay because a 20 21 22 patent was -MR. TUCKER: But assay is endorsement, assay is review and judgment passing for good, so. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 77 1 MR. JANSEN: Well but in this case and again 2 I’m speaking as one voice from this Committee. If the 3 mark were to be on every Reverse, no then it’s a 4 mandated element as a template. 5 MR. TUCKER: Design, it’s a template. 6 MR. JANSEN: It’s a template and then if the 7 Committee votes to do that I’m for that, but I think it 8 adds interest because collectors are then prone to say 9 well, “Wow did this one get the privy mark, or did it 10 11 not or I’ll collect those that did.” INTERN: Can I just add one piece about this. 12 Just don’t forget that the coin also can honor -- the 13 legislation also might honor innovators, not just an 14 innovation so you might have a situation where you’re 15 operating individual who might have invented something 16 with a patent and also other things without a patent. 17 MR. JANSEN: 18 INTERN: 19 20 Absolutely. Is there room for a bright line, individuals or good for the individuals. MR. JANSEN: And then and to that point I 21 would merely say it would be up to whatever Commission, 22 governor, whatever to put forth the patent number to be www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 78 1 -- to establish the providence. 2 MALE SPEAKER: And the other thought would be 3 I don’t think we should mandate necessarily the literal 4 expression of the state that it comes from but it 5 should be somehow explicitly clear. 6 the innovation is overlaid on the outline of the state, 7 I’m not saying I like that idea, but that would be 8 fairly literal. 9 MR. SCARINCI: 10 MR. HOGE: template. 12 the outline of a state. 14 15 Bob? I am in favor of having no 11 13 Example -- maybe I can see where you’re going with this idea MR. JANSEN: I was just trying to not mandate the state’s name and literal text. MR. HOGE: Right, I would be against having a 16 formal template because the whole idea here is 17 innovation and you know, we need to allow that as much 18 as possible for the privy mark idea, I’m equivocated 19 about this. 20 Traditionally this would have had an 21 indication of something special about an issue under 22 the purview of a particular individual or a source of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 79 1 bullion from a particular place. 2 Mint is going to distinguish sources of metal supply. 3 To supply us -- it’s kind of too bad that we can’t have 4 the date on the surface of the coin. 5 of possibly having this legislation changed at this 6 point? 7 MR. SCARINCI: 8 MR. TUCKER: 9 prevent it. 11 MR. TUCKER: 14 15 No. There’s a mandate. MALE SPAKER: 13 Is there some way Well but the legislation doesn’t 10 12 I don’t think the Right. It mandates certain things but it doesn’t prohibit or forbid other things. MR. HOGE: We might have a privy mark, in fact maybe the year -- that has the year of issue within it. MR. SCARINCI: Well how about the idea that we 16 can’t skin the cat, the boss has spoken about the date 17 on the rim. 18 MR. JANSEN: 19 MR. SCARINCI: 20 Put it there. So there’s nothing we can do about that. 21 MR. JANSEN: Yeah put it there. 22 MR. TUCKER: Yeah, obey the legislation. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 80 1 MR. SCARINCI: Yeah but, you know, may there’s 2 a work around and maybe the work around is numbering 3 instead of dating, so in the privy mark -- in the privy 4 mark itself, maybe it’s a number -- a small number. 5 MR. JANSEN: 21 or a 20 or a -- 6 MR. HOGE: 7 MR. SCARINCI: Well 1 is gonna so -2, 3, 4, 5, 6, number each 8 design and that gives collectors the closest 9 equivalence you can to a date. 10 11 MR. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes, good idea, that was a good idea. 12 MR. SCARINCI: Well it’s a great idea. 13 MALE SPEAKER: You stole my idea. 14 MR. SCARINCI: It skins the cat right so we 15 honor the boss, but we -- 16 FEMALE SPEAKER: 17 a privy market within a year. 18 MALE SPEAKER: 19 FEMALE SPEAKER: 20 MALE SPEAKER: 21 22 So you’re saying it’s within Yeah. Number 1, number 2, -And your idea being serial as opposed to the abbreviated date for that. FEMALE SPEAKER: Oh I love that. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 81 MALE SPEAKER: 1 2 So ever coin would be numbered so the last one would be 56? 3 FEMALE SPEAKER: 4 MR. HOGE: Right. That works more well with the 5 traditional idea of the privy mark example, emblematic 6 of some material control. 7 FEMALE SPEAKER: 8 MR. HOGE: 9 MR. JANSEN: And you also would know Hawaii and 10 It’s a series, the series one. Alaska would be 49 and 50. 11 FEMALE SPEAKER: 12 MR. SCARINCI: 13 Yes. Right. Correct and it would say that it would accompany -- 14 MALE SPEAKER: 15 MS. LANNIN: Puerto Rico 51. So my numbering them that’s going 16 to get the collectors all jazzed too. 17 complete the numbering system. They have to 18 (Cross Talking). 19 MS. LANNIN: So by numbering them -- it’s MR. TUCKER: But I think it applies more if 20 21 22 perfect. these are coins plucked from circulation. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Every coin November 14, 2018 Page 82 1 in the series is going to have to be deliberately 2 purchased. 3 circulation. They’re not going to be plucked from 4 MALE SPEAKER: 5 MR. TUCKER: 6 You’re not going to be filling holes in an album or folder over time. MS. LANNIN: 7 8 That’s right. But you know what I mean as a collector you have to have all of them. MR. TUCKER: 9 But you’re never going to acquire 10 1, 2, 3 and then 7 and have to go back and get 4 and 5 11 and 6. 12 MR. JANSEN: 13 MS. LANNIN: You might. 14 (Cross-talking). 15 MR. JANSEN: 16 17 You might. You might, but there is circulation, this one, so why couldn’t you? MR. TUCKER: People who jump in at 13 or 14 18 will be people who want that state, you know, they’re 19 not going to want to go back to number 1 or number 2 20 necessarily. 21 22 MR. SCARINCI: Or if they get the 13 or 14, maybe they’ll just feel they have to. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 83 1 MR. TUCKER: Because the purchase of these 2 coins is going to be so deliberate I doubt many people 3 will mysteriously or unexpectedly acquire any one of 4 them, you know what I’m saying? 5 deliberately purchased either by themselves or by 6 someone who says oh you live in Georgia, here’s a 7 Georgia coin as a gift or you know, here it’s part of 8 the a birth set or an annual proof set or whatever. If Bob is done I would just -- 9 10 MR. SCARINCI: 11 MR. HOGE: 12 They will be Are you done Bob? I think so, was there anything that didn’t make sense? MR. SCARINCI: 13 So you talked about , you 14 talked about no on the template, yes on the privy mark 15 idea and you liked the idea of numbering the privy 16 mark. 17 MR. HOGE: 18 MR. SCARINCI: 19 Yeah I’ll go with that. How about the privy mark is specific. 20 MR. HOGE: I’d go with where’s Waldo. 21 FEMALE SPEAKER: 22 MR. TUCKER: Where’s Waldo. I think we should stay away from www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 84 1 templates and in my mind that includes a privy mark. 2 think if we want to take all restraints away from the 3 artist and let them innovate, why would we saddle them 4 with something as mechanical and clunky as a gear or 5 really any privy mark? 6 could be American sign language, braille, you know, 7 things that are not physical pieces of equipment or 8 machinery that are penned, so why would you constrain 9 an artist and say you have this concept of religious 10 innovation or whatever kind of freedom or liberty or 11 advancement of American culture and oh, by the way, 12 you’ve got to put a gear on it. 13 constraints the concept of innovation. MR. HOGE: 14 I I mean American innovation I think that just Well wait a minute. We’re not 15 saying the artist has to do this, the Mint could put it 16 wherever they want to. 17 places. 18 MR. TUCKER: It can be a where’s Waldo Well but that becomes designed by 19 -- it would have to, of course it must be small because 20 we’re dealing with a very tiny diameter and I think 21 because space is so limited and precious on these 22 coins, why would we force something, especially a 2 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 85 1 digit number within a piece of machine? 2 templates and templates include privy marks in this 3 case. MR. SCARINCI: 4 5 MR. TUCKER: 7 MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: MALE SPEAKER: 10 12 Right. So even though we came up with -- even though we solved your issue -- 9 11 So what you’re saying is no privy mark at all, just don’t do it. 6 8 I’m against A brilliant. Your issue, a brilliant idea my God. MR. TUCKER: I will mention by the way that 13 Dave Bowers has proposed to the Mint a numbering system 14 starting with 1 through 56 but I -- and yes that would 15 be appealing to certain collectors. 16 that it would be more appealing if these were coins 17 that were plucked from circulation and there is a 18 chance that you’ll get number 20 before you get number 19 7 or what have you. As I said I think 20 But I think the date is important to 21 collectors, we don’t need to work around that. 22 think that we need to somehow go behind Congress’s back www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I don’t November 14, 2018 Page 86 1 and defeat their purpose or you know, this is not a 2 matter of trickery, this is just a matter of giving 3 collectors what they want -- they want the date. 4 They don’t want a numbered system where they 5 have to look something up and cross-reference on a 6 table to figure out that you know, number whatever 7 applies to this state or this territory or district. 8 9 MS. LANNIN: You don’t want somebody to look something up once you got the red book in front of you. 10 MR. TUCKER: But you don’t have to look up a 11 date, you don’t have to look up 2018, 2019, 2020, so I 12 think if we want to solve the issue of dating, then 13 let’s solve the issue with a numeric date -- a four 14 digit, you know, 2018, 2019, 2020. 15 MR. HOGE: But isn’t that something which the 16 artist then has to contend with in preparing his 17 designs? 18 MR. TUCKER: But at least it serves a direct 19 purpose, it’s not a work around, it can be very -- it 20 can be more artistic and tied to the design that a gear 21 you know, or other piece of machinery or an eagle, you 22 know, all of these eagle privy marks we talk about are www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 87 1 forced and artificial. Those are my opinions. I guess to me it boils down to no template and 2 3 template includes forced and artificial use of privy 4 marks. 5 MR. WEINMAN: As a point of clarification. 6 MR. SCARINCI: Yes? 7 MR. WEINMAN: This is a point of information, 8 the rare -- at the end of the day the Mint is the 9 executive branch which means we execute the wants as 10 they’re presented to us. 11 a position to go ask -- they moved in the coin, if it’s 12 what legislation was -- it was how it was written. 13 And so we’re not typically in And there have been rare occasions when the 14 legislation is drafted and creates impossibility or it 15 creates something that was unintended and those 16 situations we’ve worked with Congress to fix it. 17 example going back in time when the new dollar coin 18 first came out there was an issue with the silver proof 19 set that gold coin and the silver coin, it was they 20 created an unintended consequence and that’s something 21 we would do. 22 There have also been times with external www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 For November 14, 2018 Page 88 1 organizations that worked with Congress to change 2 something in the legislation. 3 inscription, “In God we Trust,” was moved from the rim 4 of the coin back onto the face of it, that was, once 5 again that was not an incident choose -- it was 6 external, with the executive branch. 7 I can think of when the I can’t imagine -- so in this particular 8 situation we wouldn’t naturally be in a position to go 9 seek a legislative fix for something. That isn’t an 10 impossibility or doesn’t create an unintended 11 consequence for us, it would have to be an external 12 effort and so in lieu of that, then we’d be open to 13 other possibilities. 14 MR. TUCKER: So are you saying that because -- 15 because we’re not seeking to take the date off the edge 16 as defined by legislation, we are free to include it as 17 part of the design? 18 MR. WEINMAN: Could you have a multiple 19 inscription, in other words, could you have an 20 inscription twice on the coin? 21 MR. JANSEN: 22 MR. WEINMAN: Date alright on the -I mean in theory I don’t that www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 89 1 we’d be necessary, I mean I can’t say what the Director 2 or the Secretary being claimed to improve on that. 3 It’s not a legal impossibility. 4 MR. TUCKER: 5 Right it doesn’t violate the legislation. MR. WEINMAN: 6 Right, the legislation requires 7 that it must be included on the edge of the coin, it 8 doesn’t prohibit it from being somewhere else. MS. STAFFORD: 9 But it’s also clear the 10 intention of Congress in that they identified it would 11 be on the rim. MR. WEINMAN: 12 13 Right, so we are cognizant of what they want, where Congress intended the date to be. 14 MR. SCARINCI: 15 MR. MORAN: Mike? I’ve listened to this until I’m 16 blue in the face. 17 restrictions on the fonts, on the format, let it go and 18 flow and Don, your idea of a numeric sequence is fine 19 with me but the more I think about it, these coins are 20 all going to be slab, they can get the date on the 21 slab. 22 I’m with everybody else, no Dennis has got a point -- the hell with it, we www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 90 1 tried to fix it and we couldn’t. MS. LANNIN: 2 3 better what would you think? MR. TUCKER: 4 5 If your blood sugar were a little I don’t think my point was the hell with it. 6 MR. SCARINCI: 7 MS. SALMON: Order. Alright, I want to make sure I 8 understand the template an artist or the Mint decides 9 that and the artists just takes that theme and designs 10 or are there certain elements that always have to be in 11 there that are understood? MS. STAFFORD: 12 So a template is -- if you look 13 at our current quarters here it’s, America the 14 Beautiful. 15 state and the name of the park and the date and that 16 template, that border where the date sits at the bottom 17 the way the required inscriptions go are across the top 18 -- that is consistent and falls into placement across 19 the entire series. 20 Around the border we have the name of the So because the American Innovation dollar coin 21 Reverses require two inscriptions, “United States of 22 America,” and the name of the jurisdiction, New Jersey, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 91 1 Georgia, Pennsylvania, et cetera, we were wanting this 2 Committee’s input on whether you would be interested in 3 the artist utilizing a template for the entire 15-year 4 program for those required inscriptions or let them 5 incorporate them as appropriate to the design and how 6 the composition demands it. MS. SALMON: 7 Alright in that case, I would say 8 let’s let the artist decide. As far as privy mark, if 9 it’s an element that unifies the series, that the 10 artist may incorporate into it, I don’t know, I don’t - 11 - I’m new to this so forgive me. Then I would think it would be a good thing to 12 13 have. 14 after the fact, I don’t understand the need for that, 15 so. 16 If it’s something that’s just stamped into it MR. SCARINCI: Okay, so let’s summarize to 17 give the Mint some clear direction. 18 which I think we have -- I think we have unanimity on 19 the first question and I can do this in the form of a 20 Motion -- oh I’m sorry? 21 22 MR. GILL: On the first issue Oh that’s already, I think you already know what I’m thinking anyway. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 92 MALE SPEAKER: 1 2 You passion is even lower than mine. MR. GILL: 3 Notable for me, and I’m not sure 4 about the privy mark and I’m just not experienced 5 enough to know what value that adds. 6 practical standpoint I’d just like to see a date and 7 then mark on a coin and that’s really old-fashioned, I 8 get that, but if there’s some way to incorporate some 9 numbering system that you folks like and I’m happy to 10 do that. MR. SCARINCI: 11 12 The problem with the series is that Congress has mandated the date is on the edge. MR. GILL: 13 14 So for me, from a It’s already there, it’s already there. MR. SCARINCI: 15 So and yes, could we duplicate 16 the date technically yeah. 17 duplicate the date and did what they told us they 18 didn’t want to do for some reason, they probably won’t 19 like that. MR. GILL: 20 21 put it on there. 22 point is. Will Congress like that we If the privy mark means anything, If it doesn’t I don’t know what the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 93 MR. SCARINCI: 1 So as a consensus I think first 2 of all do we all agree -- should we do this as a 3 Motion? 4 5 6 No, MR. WEINMAN: It’s up to you, we’ll take the guidance for the record either way. MR. SCARINCI: This is the easy, well here’s 7 the easy one because you’re going to have it as a 8 Motion, so is there a Motion that we want to give the 9 artist a free hand and not have a template? 10 MR. HOGE: So moved. 11 MR. MORAN: 12 MR. SCARINCI: 13 CHORUS: 14 MR. SCARINCI: Seconded it. All those in favor? Aye. Any opposed? So we have a 15 unanimous opinion on that. 16 do a privy mark -- it’s a little more complicated. 17 we do a privy mark so I guess I’ll ask, I’ll frame it 18 as three different questions. 19 On the second issue, do we One -- do we do a privy mark yes or no? Do Two - 20 - does the privy mark -- do we, if we do a privy mark, 21 does it -- do we agree with the where’s Waldo, and 22 let’s call it the Mary Lannin approach, the where’s www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 94 1 Waldo approach, anywhere they want and number three -- 2 do we want the privy mark if we agree with the privy 3 mark, do we want the privy mark to have a number on it 4 so that at least we have numbers even though we don’t 5 have dates? So first question all those in favor of a 6 7 privy mark? 8 opposed -- 4 opposed. 9 in favor? 10 All those opposed. So there are 1,2,3,4 The majority is for so all those 6 -- 1,2,3,4,5,6 -- 6 to 4 it carries add a privy. Once we have a privy mark do we want the Mary 11 12 Lannin approach to a privy mark, you know so that the 13 artist has freedom to put it wherever they want to 14 within the design? 15 All those in favor? 16 MALE SPEAKER: 17 18 By definition you’re saying no template. MR. SCARINO: Right, no template, that would 19 be the no template approach except that we’re telling 20 the artist and they’ll advise the artist that either 21 the set design has to have this privy mark somewhere in 22 the design, decide where you want it to be, alright, so www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 95 1 that would be an instruction that goes to the artist, 2 so all those in favor of a privy mark with the artist 3 deciding the “Where’s Waldo” approach, all those in 4 favor of the Where’s Waldo approach? 5 7 -- 7 and all those opposed to Where’s Waldo? 6 okay 7 to 1 and all those abstaining? 7 MR. HOGE: Okay so that’s 6, 1 -- I think that we shouldn’t dictate 8 to the artist to incorporate this in it, I think we 9 should leave it to the Mint to put it in a place that’s 10 going to be most appropriate to the striking and how 11 the thing’s going to come out. 12 MR. JANSEN: 13 MR. HOGE: A/k/a a Mint mark, on the edge. Not really, let them work it in, 14 put it there. 15 piece is going to strike, where the no flows and all 16 that sort of thing. 17 They’re the ones who determine how the MR. SCARINCI: Alright so it’s 7 to 1 and I 18 guess now the sub-question is do we leave it to the 19 Mint or do we leave it to the artist. 20 vote for -- 21 22 MS. LANNIN: So let’s have a In the sub-category of the “Where’s Waldo” approach, in a template free thing this www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 96 1 would be if it’s appropriate for the artist to work a 2 gear into the Reverse art they may do so. 3 choose not to, then it’s at the discretion of the Mint 4 still numbering in this interesting system where the 5 privy mark should be. If they 6 MR. SCARINCI: Do we like that approach? 7 MALE SPEAKER: I like that better. 8 MR. SCARINCI: All those in favor of Mary 9 Lannin sub-1? 10 MS. LANNIN: 11 MR. SCARINCI: 12 opposed? 13 go. Mary Lannin 2.0. Okay, there we go. Anyone So we have two abstentions, okay, there you 14 MALE SPEAKER: Well we have one. 15 MR. SCARINCI: Okay, final question -- final 16 question, final resolution which is the numbering. 17 we agree that the privy mark that we now think should 18 be on there that should be anywhere the artist wants 19 and if the artist doesn’t want it, it will fall to the 20 Mint to decide and do we want it to be numbered. 21 FEMALE SPEAKER: 22 MR. SCARINCI: Do Yes. So the question is -- you have www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 97 1 a question? 2 MR. JANSEN: 3 MR. SCARINCI: 4 MR. JANSEN: 5 From a practical sense guys how MR. SCARINCI: It’s the dollar size, a little guy, about three-quarters of an inch. MR. JANSEN: 8 9 What’s your question? big is his palette? 6 7 I do. Okay great, we’re trying to put a legible number on the back of a bug? 10 MR. SCARINCI: 11 FEMALE SPEAKER: 12 Right, pretty much, right. The most it’s ever going to be -- 13 MR. SCARINCI: 14 It’s a dog on the ladybug’s back. 15 MR. JANSEN: It’s an existential question. There you go and my point being 16 this thing is going to enlarge in order to pass muster 17 with the Mint’s technical staff because they’re going 18 to say if you make it a half a pica, it’s not going to 19 come through as a number, therefore I’m questioning the 20 ability to resolve a tier on a tooth of the gear, now 21 you want to put a number in there as well? 22 suddenly going to become not “Where’s Waldo,” but www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 It’s November 14, 2018 Page 98 1 “There’s Waldo again.”. 2 MR. SCARINCI: 3 (Cross talk) 4 MR. HARRIGAL: So Okay, so let’s -- Typically what we do for the 5 artists initials is about as small as we can get with 6 anything that’s legible and we try to keep that so that 7 it doesn’t interfere with the design. So if it’s more complex than like a simple 8 9 10 11 letter or letters that’s about the minimum size we can go. MR. JANSEN: Yeah so pull that quarter out of 12 your pocket and look at the initials and now put a gear 13 around that and suddenly this thing is going to be a 14 significant drop in on the art, it’s no longer just a 15 little afterthought, a technical point. 16 17 MR. TUCKER: Erik, it would be like trying to put something legible within the zero in 2018. 18 MR. JANSEN: Yeah okay. 19 MR. TUCKER: You know. 20 MR. SCARINCI: Okay good, let’s actually let’s 21 throw the question to them, they’ll look at it and get 22 back to us in March, there’s no rush on this. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 99 1 MS. JANSEN: 2 MR. SCARINCI: I like it. So I think they have what they 3 needed from us which is our opinion about this. 4 let’s move back to the veteran’s medal and bring it to 5 a conclusion. MR. WEINMAN: 6 So now So I’m going to report the votes 7 and the Obverse is exactly what we talked about, where 8 no design got the requisite 17 points but you’re very 9 close. 10 So this may be -- to the new members, this may very well be one of those Motion situations. 11 MALE SPEAKER: 12 MR. WEINMAN: Where we make sausage. Design 1 received 1 vote, Design 13 2 received 4 votes, Design 3 -- Obverse 3, 16 votes, so 14 close, Design 4, 15 votes, Design Obverse 5, 14 votes, 15 Design Obverse 6, 11 votes, Obverse 7, 3 votes, Obverse 16 8, 1 vote, Obverse 9, 8 votes, Obverse 10, 12 votes, 17 Obverse 11, 3 votes, Obverse 12, 2 votes, Obverse 13, 1 18 vote, Obverse 14, 2 votes, Obverse 15, 3 votes. 19 So that’s why you go to the scatter shots. 20 MR. SCARINCI: 21 22 But it looks like it’s between 3, 4, and 5. MR. WEINMAN: Do you want the Reverse? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 100 1 The Reverse there is a clear, there is a clear winner 2 and for the Reverse designs starting with Reverse 3 Number 1, 3 votes, Reverse 2 got 1 vote, Reverse 3 4 received 9 votes, Reverse 4 received 5 votes, Reverse 5 4A received 4 votes, Reverse 5 received 13 votes, 6 Reverse 6 received 9 votes, Reverse 8 received 20 7 votes, Reverse 9 received 13 votes, Reverse 10 received 8 2, Reverse 11 received 3, Reverse 12 received 6, 9 Reverse 13 received 1, Reverse 15 received 10 votes, 10 Reverse 16 received 8 votes, Reverse 17 received 3 11 votes, Reverse 18 received 3 votes, Reverse 19 received 12 2 votes, Reverse 19A received 3 votes and Reverse 20 13 received 1 vote. 14 15 16 So there the only design to receive the requisite number of votes was in fact Reverse 8. MR. SCARINCI: Okay so the good news is we 17 have Reverse 8 is the Reverse that has been selected 18 and we need to now select between Obverse 3, Obverse 4 19 and Obverse 5 to pair with Reverse 8. 20 MR. TUCKER: 21 MR. SCARINCI: 22 MR. TUCKER: Mr. Chair? Yes? Didn’t we discuss earlier that we www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 101 1 weren’t necessarily beholden to an Obverse being an 2 Obverse and a Reverse being a Reverse, so even though. 3 MR. SCARINCI: 4 MR. TUCKER: That’s correct. So even though Reverse 8 got 20 5 couldn’t we say Obverse is X and Y both got high scores 6 so maybe we could combine those, should we open that 7 level of discussion instead of just mathematically 8 saying the highest Obverse and the highest Reverse? MR. WEINMAN: 9 You could always make a Motion. 10 I think you’re talking about the Obverses, the 11 Obverses. 12 MR. SCARINCI: You’re saying between, you’re 13 saying the two highest Obverse? 14 MR. TUCKER: No I’m just saying -- 15 MR. JANSEN: What pairing would you be 16 17 advocating? You’re always welcome to make a Motion. MR. TUCKER: Okay, well I have to study this 18 for a moment because -- my recommendation was Obverses 19 4 and 9 but 9 did not get more than 8. 20 21 22 MR. SCARINCI: We are running against the clock and some of us have 4 o’clock trains okay so. MR. JANSEN: Simple point with Obverse, excuse www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 102 1 me, Reverse 8 getting such a strong showing I’d only 2 make the point that that’s a very graphic design. 3 might encourage people to think put a little humanity 4 on the other side and not just another heavy graphic. MR. SCARAINCI: 5 I So since we are, you know, 6 since time is short, I’d like to make a Motion that we 7 select between the two highest vote getters of Obverse, 8 of the Obverse and that would be a Motion to select 9 between Obverse 3 and Obverse 4, Motion to do that? 10 MR. MORAN: 11 MR. SCARINCI: 12 13 Second. Everybody, doesn’t anybody disagree? MR. JANSEN: No, I think that’s the way to go 14 because the other high vote getters are just heavy 15 graphics again. 16 MR. SCARINCI: Well without revisiting the 17 entire thing again and having a whole round of 18 discussions which will take a long time to do, you 19 know, let’s just pick between so Motion carries, so 20 let’s just pick between Obverse 3 and Obverse 4 to pair 21 with the selected Reverse of Reverse 8 so all those in 22 favor of Obverse 3? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 103 1 2 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Can we have a discussion first? 3 MALE SPEAKER: We want a discussion. 4 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Very fast discussion, 5 okay. 6 8 what is on Obverse on the Obverse and we already have 7 stars on the Obverse on the Reverse so do we want more 8 stars on the Obverse? 9 MS. LANNIN: 10 I think we should consider if we go with Number I think that that actually goes well. 11 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: You like it? 12 MS. LANNIN: Yeah. 13 MR. TUCKER: I would also say that the Reverse 14 being very flat gives us an opportunity to play with a 15 higher relief which would be Obverse 4. 16 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 17 MR. TUCKER: 18 Exactly. 4 is also a more unique use of symbolism. 19 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes. 20 MR. TUCKER: 21 22 I mean the eagle has been done and done. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 104 MR. TUCKER: 1 And done to that, does that 2 represent America? Yes. 3 military -- I don’t know, I don’t think so. MR. SCARINCI: 4 Does it represent the Okay, so as between Obverse 3 5 and Obverse 4 alright is there any further discussion 6 and I’ll just add my two cents, I’m going to go with 7 Obverse 3 because I was persuaded by Robin and it’s her 8 first meeting and I’m -- so she gets the Obverse, she 9 gets my Obverse vote. 10 So is there any other discussion on this topic of these two? MR. JANSEN: 11 If now, Erik? I would only say if we adopt 12 Obverse 4 I would say we consider downstream whether to 13 edit the wings that are on it, so keep that out of your 14 voting. 15 16 MR. SCARINCI: And we can also opt if we pick Number 3 to take the stars out. 17 MALE SPEAKER: Correct. 18 MR. SCARINCI: Okay, so first of all, all 19 those in favor of Obverse 3? 20 in favor of Obverse 4? 21 MR. WEINMAN: 22 valuable feedback. Okay that’s 5, all those Shit --. It’s okay you’re providing us It’s okay you provided valuable www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 105 1 feedback, I don’t think you need to necessarily, it’s a 2 tie, leave it at a tie. 3 MR. SCARINCI: Okay with that being said and 4 due to the hour I’d like to make a Motion, I’d like to 5 entertain a Motion to adjourn. 6 MALE SPEAKER: So moved. 7 MR. SCARINCI: Thank you, okay meeting 8 9 10 adjourned. (Whereupon, at 3:15 p.m. the meeting was adjourned.) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 November 14, 2018 Page 106 1 2 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER 3 I, HELEN VENTURINI, do hereby certify that 4 this transcript was prepared from audio to the best of 5 my ability. 6 7 I am neither counsel for, related to, nor 8 employed by any of the parties to this action, nor 9 financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of 10 this action. 11 12 13 November 19, 2018 14 DATE <%17264,Signature%> HELEN VENTURINI 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376