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Meeting May 18, 2021 1 Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee (CCAC) Public Meeting Moderated by Mary Lannin, Chair Tuesday, May 18, 2021 1:00 - 4:41 p.m. Videoconference Meeting Washington, D.C. 20220 Reported by: JOB No.: Terrell Lee 4561119 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 2 A P P E A R A N C E S CCAC Members: Mary Lannin, Chair of the CCAC (by videoconference) Dr. Peter van Alfen (by videoconference) Arthur "Art" Bernstein (by videoconference) Dr. Lawrence Brown (by videoconference) Samuel "Sam" Gill (by videoconference) Dr. Dean Kotlowski (by videoconference) Michael "Mike" Moran (by videoconference) Robin Salmon (by videoconference) Donald Scarinci (by videoconference) Dennis Tucker (by videoconference) Thomas "Tom" Uram (by videoconference) UNITED STATES MINT STAFF: April Stafford, Chief, Office of Design Management (by videoconference) Boneza Hanchock, Design Manager (by videoconference) Pam Borer, Design Manager (by videoconference) Roger Vasquez, Design Manager (by videoconference) Russell Evans, Design Manager (by videoconference) Joe Menna, Mint Chief Engraver (by videoconference) www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 3 A P P E A R A N C E S (cont'd) UNITED STATES MINT STAFF: Ron Harrigal, Manager of Design and Engraving (by videoconference) Jennifer Warren, Director of Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs and Liaison to the CCAC (by videoconference) Greg Weinman, Senior Legal Counsel and Counsel to the CCAC (by videoconference) Betty Birdsong, Deputy Director of Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs (by videoconference) Elizabeth Young, Attorney Advisor and attorney assigned to the 2023 American Innovation $1 Coin Program (by videoconference) LIAISONS - AMERICAN INNOVATION $1 COIN PROGRAM: For the State of Ohio: Steven George, Senior Advisor to the CEO, Ohio History Connection (by videoconference) For the State of Mississippi: Laura Hipp, Chief Marketing Officer, Mississippi Development Authority (by videoconference) www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 4 A P P E A R A N C E S (cont'd) ALSO PRESENT: Mike Unser, Coin News Media Group (by videoconference) Paul Gilkes, Coin World (by videoconference) Maggie Judkins, Numismatic News (by videoconference) Brandon Hall, Whitman Publishing (by videoconference) www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 5 C O N T E N T S PAGE Welcome and Call to Order 6 Review and Discussion of Candidate Designs for the 2023 American Innovation $1 Coin - Ohio 12 Acceptance of Minutes and Letters to the Secretary 65 Review and Discussion of Candidate Designs for the 2023 American Innovation $1 Coin - Louisiana 66 Review and Discussion of Candidate Designs for the 2023 American Innovation $1 Coin - Indiana 99 Review and Discussion of Candidate Designs for the 2023 American Innovation $1 Coin - Mississippi 119 Review and Discussion of Potential Recommendations on Future Commemorative Coin Program Themes www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 158 Meeting May 18, 2021 6 P R O C E E D I N G S MS. LANNIN: and gentlemen. It is one o'clock, ladies And good afternoon. I would like to call this order of the meeting of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee for Tuesday, May 18, 2021. To ensure that we have a quorum, I want to introduce the members of the committee. Please respond "present" when I call your name. Dr. Peter van Alfen. DR. VAN ALFEN: MS. LANNIN: Art Bernstein. MR. BERNSTEIN: MS. LANNIN: DR. BROWN: MS. LANNIN: MR. GILL: MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Present. Dr. Lawrence Brown. Present. Sam Gill. Present. Dr. Dean Kotlowski. DR. KOTLOWSKI: MS. LANNIN: Present. Present. Mike Moran. Present. MS. LANNIN: Robin Salmon. MS. SALMON: Present. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 7 MS. LANNIN: Donald Scarinci. Donald Scarinci? Okay. Possibly phone user number seven. Dennis Tucker? MR. TUCKER: Present. MS. LANNIN: Tom Uram? MR. URAM: MS. LANNIN: Lannin. Present. Okay. And I'm Mary I'm Chair of the CCAC, and I believe we have a quorum. So before we begin this meeting, I would like remind each member of the committee to mute his or her phone or microphone on the Webex program when not talking, and to announce your name prior to speaking each time so that the court reporter can accurately attribute statements to you. Additionally, I remind the public to mute your phone, as this is a listening-only hearing for the public. The agenda for today's public meeting includes a review and discussion of obverse and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 8 reverse candidate designs for the 2023 American Innovation $1 Coin Program, which includes designs featuring innovations from the states of Ohio, Louisiana, Indiana, and Mississippi. This program is authorized by Public Law 115-197. Before we begin today's proceedings, I ask the Mint liaison to call to the CCAC, Ms. Jennifer Warren. Do we have any members of the press on the call today, Jennifer? MS. WARREN: Yes, Madam Chairwoman. First of all, I also want to point out, Donald Scarinci does appear to be on now. So just F-Y-I, for the record, he is attending. MS. LANNIN: Donald, would you like to say "present"? Okay. Continue. MS. WARREN: He's there. He's saying it, but he's muted. Okay. So Mike Unser, founder, and editor of Coin News Media Group, LLC; Paul Gilkes, senior editor of Coin World; Maggie Judkins, editor of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 9 Numismatic News; and Brandon Hall, senior associate editor of Whitman Publishing is on the line from the press. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much. And so for the record, I would also like to confirm that the following Mint staff are on the call today. Please indicate "present" after I have called your name. April Stafford, Chief, Office of Design Management. MS. STAFFORD: Present. MS. LANNIN: Megan Sullivan, Senior Design Specialist. Megan? MS. WARREN: She's not here, Madam MS. LANNIN: Okay. Chair. Boneza Hanchock, Design Manager. MS. HANCHOCK: MS. LANNIN: MS. BORER: MS. LANNIN: Present. Pam Borer, Design Manager. Present. Roger Vasquez, Design Manager. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 10 Present. MR. VASQUEZ: MS. LANNIN: Russell Evans, Design Manager. MR. EVANS: Present. MS. LANNIN: Is Joe Menna here? The Mint Chief Engraver. Not yet. Ron Harrigal, Manager of Design and Engraving. MR. HARRIGAL: Chair. Good afternoon, Madam I am present. MS. LANNIN: Good afternoon, Ron. Jennifer, we have already heard from, and she is the Director of Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs and Liaison to the CCAC. MS. WARREN: Present. MS. LANNIN: Greg Weinman, Senior Legal Counsel, and Counsel to the CCAC. MR. WEINMAN: Good afternoon, Mary. I'm here. MS. LANNIN: Good afternoon, Greg. Betty Birdsong, Deputy Director of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 11 Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs. MS. BIRDSONG: Present. Good afternoon, everyone. Good afternoon. MS. LANNIN: Elizabeth Young, Attorney Advisor and the attorney assigned to the 2023 American Innovation Coin Program. Liz, I think that you're muted. I can see you. MS. YOUNG: Sorry about that. MS. LANNIN: present. Okay. Hello. Hello. You're All right. And so finally, the following liaisons will be on the call today for the 2023 American Innovation $1 Coin Program. Unfortunately, we only have two liaisons that could be with us. For the state of Ohio, it will be Mr. Stephen George, Senior Advisor to the CEO of the Ohio History Connection. And for the state of Mississippi, we have Ms. Laura Hipp, Chief Marketing Officer, and Mississippi Development Authority. And I would like to say that we are www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 12 sorry not to meet Roz Moore, who is the Director, Boards and Commission Staff for the Office of Governor John Bel Edwards of Louisiana. with us. She is unable to be Nor is Tyler Warman, Special Assistant to the Governor, of the Office of Eric Holcomb for the state of Indiana. We're missing those two people. Okay. So for the business of the day, are there any issues that need to be thrust before we start? Hearing none, I will turn the meeting over to April Stafford, the Chief of the Mint Office of Design Management. And she will present the reverse candidate designs for the 2023 American Innovation $1 Coin Program. The first portfolio to be considered is the reverse candidate designs for the Ohio 2023 American Innovation $1 Coin. April. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. And first, some background on this program. It is Public Law 115-197, the American Innovation $1 Coin Act, that requires the Secretary of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 13 the Treasury to mint and issue dollar coins with a reverse design honoring innovation or innovators from each of the 50 states, territories, and the District of Columbia. In accordance with the act, the United States Mint worked with the governors of the four states being honored in 2023 to develop design concepts for these coins. The concepts have been approved by the Secretary of the Treasury. The governors were asked to propose from one to three design concepts, and artists created designs based on all of them that were proposed and subsequently approved by the Secretary. The advisory committees are not obligated to choose a theme and then select a design from that theme. Instead, you may recommend the design that you believe will create the best coins. The state that feels strongly about a particular theme may elect to submit only that single theme, while others choose to highlight a variety of innovations tied to their state. As always, the Mint worked with www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 14 liaisons and experts from each state in developing the following designs. The obverse for this program will remain the same as in previous years and will continue to contain a unique gear-shaped privy mark to distinguish this year's program. So first, we will look at the Ohio candidate designs. Required inscriptions for this design are "United States of America" and "Ohio." And as you mentioned, Madam Chair, on the phone with us today, should be Mr. Steve George, Senior Advisor with the Ohio History Connection, and the Ohio Governor's appointed liaison for this program. Mr. George, if you're with us, would you like to say a few words? And if so, can you confirm the Governor has indicated a preference for design Ohio-04? MS. WARREN: MS. STAFFORD: MS. WARREN: technical difficulties. April. Yes? Mr. George is having some We're trying to get him on. MS. STAFFORD: MS. WARREN: Okay. It will be just a couple www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 15 of minutes. MS. STAFFORD: All right. So Madam Chair, if it's okay, I'll just share with the committee that our understanding is the Governor has indicated a preference for design four in this portfolio. That is OH-04. And once Mr. George is able to join us, perhaps after we've gone through the candidate designs, we can throw to him to see if he'd like to share any thoughts. So first, we will see candidate designs for the first theme from Ohio for the underground railroad. The underground railroad was, of course, a decentralized network of individuals, family, friends, and churches that covertly helped slaves escape to freedom. It was an innovation that arose as a convergence of several efforts to liberate slaves in the United States. The National Park Service recognizes over a dozen routes through Ohio that stand as monuments to fleeing slaves who made the perilous journey and those who helped them along their way. Other states abutting the south had active lines www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 16 within the underground railroad network, but Ohio's role in the underground railroad was pivotal. Ohio was the southernmost free state that bordered the northernmost slave states of Kentucky and then Virginia, with an estimated 3,000 miles of trails throughout Ohio. Both Black and white Ohioans hosted safe houses, or stations, that eased and aided runaway's flights to freedom. One well-known site is the small town of Ripley, Ohio, where a Black businessman and former slave, John Parker, and a white clergyman, the Reverend John Rankin, aided slaves crossing the Ohio River from Kentucky. Reverend Rankin's family would raise a lantern on a flagpole to signal fleeing slaves in Kentucky when it was safe for them to cross into the free state of Ohio. Both Reverend Rankin's and John Parker's homes still stand as national historic landmarks and museums honoring the underground railroad. So first, we have designs 1, 2, and 2A. These designs depict two strong hands grasped together, the upper arm pulling the lower arm upward, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 17 representing the support and strength required by both parties on the underground railroad. A chain fastened to a rustic shackle around the lower arm's wrist snaps in fragments, alluding to the hope of freedom. The additional inscription is "underground railroad." OH-02, seen here, adds an additional set of chains that disappear behind a hammered metal texture on the border. OH-02A substitutes a path of footprints for the chains and removes the textured border. And moving on to design 3. This design depicts the John Rankin house, a national historic landmark. The house, which sits atop a hill and can be seen across the river in Kentucky, was an important stop on the underground railroad. The big dipper constellation appears overhead, with the north star situated at the top center. Those traveling the underground railroad often knew little about the route other than folk knowledge to quote "follow the drinking gourd," referring to the big dipper. Light from a lantern in the shape of the sun from the great seal of Ohio radiates through a window. The additional inscription www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 18 is "underground railroad." Design 4 portrays an underground railroad conductor raising a lantern in the foreground as a group of passengers ascends the 300-foot-high stairs to safety at the John Rankin house, a key step on the journey from a slave state to freedom. The additional inscription "pivotal state in the underground railroad" is incused along the bottom border. And again, it is our understanding that this design, design 4, is the preference of the Governor. Moving on to design 6. This depicts an allegorical light to freedom, as an arm holds up an antique fixed globe railroad lantern with rays of light emanating from the center. The broken chains symbolize the freedom found at the end of a successful journey. The additional inscription "underground railroad" is included. Design 7 features the north star presented in the style of a compass rose and circled by a broken chain. The central image simultaneously references the vast terrain and distance traveled, as well as the directional guidance provided by the north www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 19 star. It includes the additional inscription "the underground railroad." Design 8 features a lantern superimposed over a map of Ohio illuminating the networks of routes for the underground railroad. The additional inscription is "key to the underground railroad network." Design 9 depicts an underground railroad conductor as he rows a freedom-seeking woman across the Ohio River. The man watches over his shoulder as he rows while the woman looks back tentatively with concerns of both her past and future on her mind. Their northern sky is seen in the background, including the big dipper and the north star. The additional inscription "underground railroad" arcs across the bottom border. Moving on to the invention of human flight, which is the second theme for Ohio. bit about this theme. A little The Wright brothers, Orville and Wilbur, created the world's first airplane in Ohio's Miami Valley. Their innovations in aeronautical innovation, design, construction and test www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 20 piloting brought about economic, social, military, and political shifts that reverberate around the world today. Before achieving flight, the Wright brothers produced breakthroughs in testing and measuring the mechanics of flight through the use of wind tunnels and prototyping. According to historian Peter Jakab, quote, "Wilbur and Orville defined and solved all of the essential technical problems of heavier-than-air flight. The Wrights are important not simply because their airplane was the first powered, heavier-than-air craft to leave the ground and maintain sustained flight. They are the watershed figures in aviation history because every successful airplane that followed is rooted in the Wright Flyer. In short, not only did the brothers invent the airplane, they also pioneered the practice of aeronautical engineering. Their first US patent did not claim invention of a flying machine, but a system of aerodynamic control that manipulated a flying machines surfaces" end quote. Going on to Ohio design 10. This www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 21 depicts a Wright Flyer in flight with a geometric visual in the background that symbolizes the Wright Brothers' mastery of "three-axis control." Their innovative hand and body operated mechanical apparatus balanced pitch, yaw, and roll, which was essential for sustained power flight. Designs 11, 12, and 13 depict a Wright Brothers' Flyer at an angle while in flight. The additional inscription is "birthplace of aviation." Design 11, seen here, includes a bald eagle in flight behind the Wright Flyer. Twelve includes a stylized sun reminiscent of the great seal of Ohio. And 13 features the outline of the state of Ohio. Design 14 illustrates the airflow through a propellor in motion on a Wright Flyer. Directional arrows indicate the direction of the airflow through and around the propellor. The additional inscription "innovation of human flight" is included. Design 15 features a profile view of a Wright Flyer. The patent number for the aircraft is inscribed below the plane, while the additional www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 22 inscription "innovation of human flight" arcs around the border. Design 16 depicts an upward view of a Wright Flyer as it travels towards the clouds in the background. The additional inscription "innovation of human flight" is included. And finally, design 17 features a view of a Wright Flyer from the rear of the plane through to the front as the aircraft travels through the sky. The additional inscription "innovation in human flight" is included. That concludes the candidate designs for Ohio. Madam Chair, I am aware that Stephen George, I believe, has joined us if we are able to go to him. Mr. George, we've shared the candidate design portfolio with the committee. Would you like to say a few words? Are you there, Mr. George? MS. BORER: This is -- MS. STAFFORD: MS. BORER: You might be muted. Yeah. This is Pam. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 He may Meeting May 18, 2021 23 be muted. MS. STAFFORD: If you'd like to try star six to unmute yourself, and then press the mute button, Mr. George. MR. GEORGE: MS. STAFFORD: go. Wonderful. Thank you. Okay. I apologize. There we Thank you for your patience. MR. GEORGE: yours. All right. I appreciate it very much. obviously. Thank you for I'm not a techie, I can barely use my phone. But I've been thrilled to be a part of this process. It was very exciting when Governor DeWine called upon me to coordinate things here in Ohio. And what a pleasure it has been to work with everybody at the Mint. So far, you've been really terrific. The Governor has reviewed all of these concepts. He took this program very seriously. And he is enthralled with candidate number 4, which does show a conductor escorting a family, we think, of fleeing slaves across the Ohio River, and up this www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 24 glorious hill to freedom in the underground railroad network of Ohio. Of course, that was a very dangerous thing, and it was really just the first step because, in order to be free, they had to make it to Canada. But John Rankin's house on top of that hill stands like a beacon to them. It's on a very high hill overlooking the Ohio River, and surely, it must be able to be seen well into Kentucky. We're very proud in Ohio of the underground railroad network. And although, you know, these networks traversed much of the north, Ohio played, really, this pivotal role in it. And so many towns in Ohio are familiar with the subject and really very proud of their heritage of helping people achieve freedom. So that's my report. The governor really likes number 4, and he hopes that you will as well. MS. LANNIN: George. Thank you so much, Mr. I'm glad you got the technology to work. It's a hard day for all of us, sometimes with mute and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 25 unmute. All right. Thank you so much. I'd like to ask Joe Menna and Ron Harrigal if they've got anything to share with the committee on the design. MR. MENNA: This is Joe Menna -- MR. HARRIGAL: Oh. This is Ron. Joe, go ahead. wondering if you were on. Go ahead. MR. MENNA: Oh, yes. This is Joe Menna. add about the portfolio. I have nothing to Okay. Anything? MR. HARRIGAL: is a good option. I'm sorry. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: And Ron? I was just No. I really think this Lots of choices here, and they're all definitely coinable, for sure. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Great. Thank you. Thanks so much. So I'd like to begin our consideration of these designs. I'd like to remind my members to keep their comments, please, to -- could you mute your phone, please? Thank you. And to identify yourself prior to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 26 speaking because we have no idea otherwise. So we're going to be keeping track of time, and when the time is close, I'm actually going to ask you to wrap up. I don't mean to be rude, but we've got a lot of stuff to do today. So if members have questions or comments on any programs, please refrain from asking or discussing it until we're recognized at the end of the discussion. And then, I'm going to ask if you've got additional comments. So I would like to begin with Sam Gill. MR. GILL: Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, first of all, my congratulations to the artist for all four series that we're going to be looking at today. I thought they were, as usual, superb, and I'm always in awe of what they do. If I had my way, I would allow Ohio to have two innovation coins because both of their topics were so, so good and compelling. Just to go to the second one, which is the Wright Brothers' airplane, it certainly -- that invention just tops just about everything that all of us can think of as something www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 27 that's affected the world so much. And then, the underground railroad is just a fascinating, interesting treasure legacy for Ohio, and they should be extremely proud. And I can understand why they want to highlight that today. I'm certainly going to throw my support behind the Governor's recommendation for number 4, but were it up to me, initially, I would have probably chosen number 9 because the artist has captured that lady's face in such a touching way. And I can just imagine what she must be thinking in that boat, leaving so much behind and going to so much uncertainty. So anyway, my support is for number 4, and I thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thanks so much, Sam. Dr. Lawrence Brown, please. DR. BROWN: Good afternoon. This is Lawrence Brown. And Madam Chair, I would like to thank you for your leadership, as well as thank you for your guidance that you gave at the very beginning of this conversation that we're having. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 28 I, too, agree with my colleague. designs are just flawless. These I mean, just fantastic. I, too, will vote and throw my support to the suggestion by this good state of Ohio. I, too -- in fact -- I find it kind of challenging to decide between two important aspects of American history. At the same point, I do see the value, particularly given where we are now as a nation. It just makes sense that we lean in a direction of recognizing our history in a way that allows us to recognize all Americans. So in that sense, Madam Chair, I will bring my comments to a close because I think this is just so wonderful and allow my colleagues to add their -- as well. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Dr. Brown. Donald Scarinci. Donald, are you with us? All right. We'll come back to Donald. Mike Moran. MR. MORAN: MS. LANNIN: I'm here, Mary. All right. Mike, why www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 29 don't you take over for a while. MR. MORAN: I, at the risk of being redundant, will also say that I think that the portfolios package that we have today is by and large excellent. And I feel like there were designs in each of the packages that were really outstanding and would look well on the back of the dollar coin. In terms of Ohio, I like number 1 first and foremost. It's a very powerful image, the broken chain, and two hands. I don't think you can get any better than that in terms of the symbol of freedom that Ohio offered to the underground railroad. I also thought that number 6 was nice, and that again, you had the broken circle of the chain with the north star in the center, the north star being the guide and the light to freedom. And going back to number 6 as well, I also liked the lantern, the light, the broken chain. I thought the symbolism was particularly strong. In terms of the Wright Brothers' Flyer, I really want to call attention to number 15, being an engineer by trade -- or by training, not by trade. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I Meeting May 18, 2021 30 think that's an outstanding view of that Flyer. It's from a unique direction, and yet it conveys exactly what it is. You instantly know. And I think getting the patent number there is a nice touch as well. So it will also get my votes. And I think I'll let -- in terms of the dominant theme here, between the Flyer and the underground railroad -- I'll let the heart and the votes for the art decide which way we go. Thank you, Mary. MS. LANNIN: Thanks so much. Tom Uram. You available? MR. URAM: Thanks, Madam Chairman. Yes. Same thing on this. I'm rambling with the themes here in relation to I respect Governor DeWine's choice here. But it gets back to a couple of the other designs, which brings me back to -- woah. Am I getting some feedback? MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Not from me. The underground railroad to me is history, which is very important history, and I www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 31 understand that, and I kind of look at it in relation to as we did the Pennsylvania turnpike, which was history. So I'm going to, with respect to the Governor's office, give votes to choice number 4. However, I'm also, like a couple others, going to give votes to the Wright Brothers. And particularly, the last design, design 11, as it relates to an innovation because I think that the Wright Brothers' is really the innovation, and the underground railroad, where it is an innovation, but it's also more history. And I guess you could argue both ways on it. But I'm going to give both of them points, and either way, as Michael just said, both are very -- and Sam, a couple others have said -- that you know, the historic significance of both are challenging. So either way, I think Ohio is going to be well representative. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thanks so much, Tom. Robin Salmon, please. MS. SALMON: This is Robin Salmon. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 32 Thank you, Madam Chair. Regarding the underground railroad, I liked design number 3. That particular artist point of view in incorporating all of the important symbols of the underground railroad, the historic symbols, I think is a very beautiful design, and it's different. With the Governor's choice for number 4, I like that one as well. I'm not positive that the lantern is representative of the proper time period. I think it's a little later design than the underground railroad time period, but that's easily dealt with. With the Wright Brothers, there were so many interesting designs here. Number 14, in particular, caught my eye, focusing on the propellor and the airflow, it's really an ingenious depiction, and it underscores what innovation is all about. Number 15 also I thought was an excellent design and an interesting perspective on the Wright Flyer. And then, number 17 underscored all the things for me that needed to be underscored as far as the significance of what the Wright Brothers did. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 33 I would not argue with the Governor on this, but I do like other designs, as I've articulated. number 4. But I'll certainly be giving votes to Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so very much, Robin. Is Donald Scarinci unmuted? Can we go back to Donald? Donald, I can see you. I can't hear you. Donald, you're talking, but we can't hear you. MS. WARREN: Jennifer. Madam Chairwoman, this is His mic is unmuted, so I don't know if we're having a sound -Donald, you may have to call in on the line to speak. MS. LANNIN: Yes. If Donald could consider doing that, and then I will make him the last person unless Lexi can fix it or something. Dennis Tucker. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 34 This is Dennis Tucker. Can you hear me? MS. LANNIN: Yes. MR. TUCKER: Thank you. For me, in my opinion, for Ohio, the underground railroad is the strongest of the two themes we've been presented with today. And I'd like to thank the Governor for affirming that American innovation doesn't have to be scientific, physical, or able to be patented. It can be cultural, social, and intangible. One of our Presidents of the United States recently defined innovation as "the creation of something that improves the way we live our lives." And I think the underground railroad certainly improved the life of America. Of the designs that we've been presented, the one that really caught my eye and was the most dramatic, and to me, is the strongest, is number 1. I do give merit points to number 3 and number 4, which show the John Rankin house. I like the way that those designs use scenery and character www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 35 to tell a story. But the strength and drama of those hands clasped, and that exploding chain in number -the use of symbolism and metaphor, to me, this is far and away the most pneumatically reflective design. It's the best design. I would also point out, just quickly, that the Wright Brothers and innovations in flight have been honored on many, many medals and tokens and on many legal tender coins. The Isle of Man recently has done at least three that I'm aware of. Liberia, Ghana, the Solomon Islands, the United States itself in the North Carolina state quarter, and then the first flight centennial half dollar, silver dollar, and gold ten-dollar piece. So it's certainly a worthy innovation and one that deserves commemoration, but it has been commemorated. And as far as I'm aware, I don't think the underground railroad has been. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thank you so much, Dennis. I think we've gotten Donald's audio www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 36 problems straightened out. Donald, if you can hear me, would you like to comment on Ohio? The fates are not with us today. He's not sitting in his chair. Okay. Dean Kotlowski, please. DR. KOTLOWSKI: This is Dean Kotlowski. Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson. I wanted to just start out with a little bit of information. I think when we do the underground railroad, we have to be careful about the history and the mythology. A book was written around 1961 by a historian named Larry Gara called The Liberty Line: The Myth of the Underground Railroad, which argued against images of a highly organized movement. I was very happy to see the Mint in its narrative did stress that it was decentralized. So for that reason, number 8, which I don't think has been mentioned so far, is interesting. But it may get us into the idea of something that was very, very formal as a network. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 37 It looks a lot like a map that was produced in Wilbur Seibert's book about the underground railroad, which was published in 1898, which again, I think, made an argument for a more organized effort. As you can see, my second point here is, I have a little bit of background in the underground railroad. in graduate school. It was the first paper I wrote It was later published. But it's not really a primary field of my interest. And the third thing I wanted to just state in way of introduction with respect to this particular coin, I really wanted to feel something, and I wanted to feel something really powerful. And I wanted to think, but I didn't want to spend a lot of time puzzling out what the artist might have been intending, and so for me, I have to very, very strongly agree with Mike and with Dennis, number 1 was far, far and away the best design. And I don't want to take issue with the Governor's office. But I want to be direct, as I always am, and say I was really not inspired very much www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 38 by number 4 until I actually looked up the John Rankin house, and it is a very good rendering of that particular site. So I can see why the Governor liked this. I'm just not a fan of the way the characters were drawn, and like Sam, number 9, I think, you know, had a little bit more of a human touch when you bring people into this. But I also felt that the figures were a little bit big for the rowboat. And I would be interested if people are more artistically inclined and experienced, whether they would agree. But let's get back to number 1. Number 1 is terrific because what number 1 shows you with the muscles, and the two hands together, and the breaking of the chain, it shows you strength, it shows you struggle, it shows you cooperation, and it shows you liberation. And it really, really profoundly moved me, and I think that's what a coin should do at its very best, and it did this. Now, the one thing because I was critical of the Governor's choice, I want to be a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 39 little critical of mine. You want to be careful about the way, you know, of showing uplift. That's kind of a theme here. You know. And that can be read in maybe a different way, and maybe not as positive a way. That's reading too much into it, so I've considered that, and I've kind of pushed it aside because I love number 1. I'm a little curious as to why "underground railroad" the writing of it is written the way it is. It seems to be reversed, and maybe it should be the other way around. I'll let people figure it out. With number 2, again, you've got a variation on this theme. additional chains get you. I'm not sure what the The narrative said that they're receding in the background. It could be a meaning that African-Americans would find their freedom to some extent limited in the north, not exactly a situation of slavery. But again, that's, I think, reading too much. And I did not like 2A because 2A showed those footprints moving in a southwesterly direction. So I think that 1, 2, and 3 really caught my eye and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 40 attention, but it was far and away number 1. Like Mike, I looked at number 6, and I think it's a very interesting design. I want to say some nice things to the artist, but it was a little too complicated, and it got me thinking more. And it's not like I'm against thinking here, but I really wanted the power of the feeling and the emotion -MS. LANNIN: Okay. DR. KOTLOWSKI: I may be running a little bit out of time here. MS. LANNIN: Yes. DR. KOTLOWSKI: You are, my friend. So I don't have very much to say about the Wright Brothers, except I like number 10, and I liked number 15, and number 17 was a little hard to decipher, but it was an interesting perspective. Thank you -MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Do we have Donald Scarinci back at his phone yet, or is it -MS. WARREN: This is Jennifer. They actually, we could hear them at one point when Dennis www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 41 and Dean were talking, so I had hit their mic, but now, it seems like their person is gone, so I don't know if they're in the room and can hear us. They would just have to unmute their microphone at this point. MS. LANNIN: Okay. I will continue on with Peter van Alfen, please. DR. VAN ALFEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. I am happy to defer to the governor's choice for the underground railroad, number 4. Although, like some of my colleagues, I do have some concerns about that. And also feel, much like Mike, Dennis, and Dean, that number 1 is by far the strongest design in this underground railroad portfolio. I find this design incredibly compelling, very strong, and I think it would work very well on a coin. Many of the other designs are also quite strong. I have to say. One of the things that concerns me, however, about number 4, and this is a point that I believe the liaison, Mr. George, brought up, is the fact that Ohio is not necessarily the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 42 innovator or the innovative state of the underground railroad because, again, as I believe Dean brought up, this was rather decentralized. And so this inscription "pivotal state in the underground railroad," that we find on number 4, and then I think on number 8, "key to the underground railroad network," again sort of underscores the fact that Ohio cannot necessarily lay claim to being the state of innovation for the underground railroad. So I do wonder whether or not we should include "pivotal state" or something along those lines if we do choose number 4. Or just have "the underground railroad" as the inscription and delete pivotal state. That's something that we could discuss a little bit later, perhaps. For the Wright brothers coins that are proposed designs, as Dennis brought up, you know, this is an image of the Wright Flyer. The image of the Wright Flyer has appeared already on the 2002 Ohio State quarter, the 2001 North Carolina, as well as the 2003 first flight series. That said, I did find a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 43 couple of these designs really quite compelling. Number 14, for example, really is, you know, really quite interesting. As is number 17, simply because it gets away a little bit from that traditional view or the view that we've already seen in some issued coins of the Wright Flyer. Number 15, I have to agree with Mike is also really quite a different and nice view of this. In fact, it really rather reminds me of looking at the Wright Flyer hanging in the Smithsonian, the viewpoint that you have there. So that's what I have to say, and thank you very much. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Peter. Arthur Bernstein, please. MR. BERNSTEIN: Hi. This is Art Bernstein, and I speak as a citizen of the buckeye state, very pleased to discuss the Ohio dollar. I'd like to focus my comments on design 08 and tell you that Ohioans are very proud of the underground railroad. And as I travel around the state, I've seen numerous churches and homes in basements with plaques www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 44 describing the history, the role that that particular place played in the role of the underground railroad. And that's why I'm attracted to design number 8 because unlike the design suggested by the Governor's representative, design 8 reflects the entire state and shows that the entire state was involved in the underground railroad. It even shows Lake Erie and references the connection to Canada, which was ultimately part of the underground railroad network as well. So I would like to commemorate the underground railroad, and I think design 8 does it in a way that celebrates all of Ohio, rather than one specific building. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Art. Donald Scarinci, please. MR. SCARINCI: Thank you. Can you hear me now? MS. LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: Yes. Welcome, Donald. Okay. So that took a village to make this happen. Listen, I am going to, you know, in an www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 45 attempt to save Ohio from itself, I am going to do what I never do. I'm going to do a 3, 4, 14, 15, and 17 because I'm hearing a lot of support for those three designs on flight, which is clearly an innovation, as opposed to history -- important history, though it is. it is. Very important history, though And beautiful designs, you know, very beautiful designs, and very important designs, though they are. All right. series. It doesn't go in this It just doesn't go. Right. It sticks out like a sore thumb and makes Ohio look like they're just trying to be politically correct. I'm sorry. So I think innovation is clearly flight, and that's what the series is about. So as much as I'd like to support an underground railroad coin, you know, maybe we could propose a commemorative coin for this. Maybe we can do this as a medal, you know, to go side-by-side with the coin. But you know, American innovation, you know, I mean, does it get more American and more innovative as an American than flight? And you know, I mean, their state quarter, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 46 you know, was celebrating, you know, John Glenn, flight, all of it. And you know, this is clearly important. So I'm sorry, but you know, I have to support one of these flight coins. series. You know, for this For this particular series. Because we're talking about American innovation dollars. what we're talking about here. not a history series. Right. That's You know, it's It's American innovation dollar series, and that's what we're talking about. So I'm going to give a three to 14, 15, and 17. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Okay. Donald, is that it? So it comes down to me. All right. In terms of strength of design, I think number 1 is outstanding. No one has mentioned the fact yet that the hand is reaching from the south to somebody that's up north. You know, so that is bisecting the coin there, I think, is really a powerful statement. I didn't like the other 2 and 2A because I thought it added sort of extraneous things. I like the idea of the medal on 2. I did not like the idea of the feet on 2A. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 47 But I understand exactly what Donald is talking about. I wonder what percentage of the country has probably flown on the plane. way of knowing that. they did. I have no But that is stunning in what And I know that we've honored the Wright brothers on other coins and in other ways, but we became lighter than air. You know, Leonardo DaVinci was writing about all this stuff, and it took the Wright brothers to pull it off. I actually liked number 15, like Mike did, because if we're talking about American innovation, remember the first set of coins that we did in the series was about the first patent that was signed. Right. So here we've got US patent number 821393 on a very cool image of this plane. If I didn't pick this one, I would definitely pick along with Robin and Donald. number 17. I loved I just thought it was a pure, pure coin, and I think that the Mint could do a lot with texture for the clouds. So with that, I think that we should start to think about scoring. And we've got www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 48 everything that came from the Mint to us in our scoresheets, so we should e-mail or text our scores to Greg -MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: Yes, please. -- and he'll tally them. And it is approximately ten minutes to 2:00. Greg, should we return at 2:00? Mr. WEINMAN: Yes. Let's at least give ourselves 10 minutes, and let's see where we are. It depends on how quickly everybody can give me their scores. MS. LANNIN: All righty. Thank you so much. MR. WEINMAN: I'm waiting for Mary, Robin, and Tom. Robin just came in. MS. LANNIN: Thanks. Greg, I e-mailed you it. Did you not get it? MR. WEINMAN: Not yet. If you don't mind trying it again. MS. LANNIN: Oh, really. try to take a picture of it or something. Maybe I'll Wow. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 49 Could people mute their phones if they're not actively talking? MS. WARREN: Yeah. Tom, your phone is open. MR. URAM: No. That wasn't me. I know it was dogs, but I can't take the blame on that one. MS. WARREN: thought it was you. It sounded like you. I My fault. MR. URAM: I know. I know. Greg, that just went over. MR. WEINMAN: Thank you. Yeah, Mary. Take a photo if need be. MS. LANNIN: I am. I don't -I am. That's really weird. MR. WEINMAN: I do not have an e-mail from you. Did you send me? You just sent me MR. URAM: Yeah. yours, Tom? Yeah. I just sent it over. MR. WEINMAN: Okay. I'm sure it will www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 50 come through in a moment. MS. LANNIN: Okay, Greg. I just sent them. MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: Okay. I'm waiting. Am I in the no Greg zone today for some reason? MR. WEINMAN: through. Huh -- not coming I mean sometimes, who knows. Technology is odd. MS. LANNIN: Well, as I said, I have an appointment with some tech guys tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. MR. WEINMAN: I haven't gotten Tom's yet either, so I'm still waiting on that. For what it's worth, yeah, if you're able to take a photo of it and text it, sometimes that does seem to come faster. MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: Okay. E-mail system seems delayed. MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: Have you gotten anything? Yours, Mary, just came. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 51 MR. URAM: I just sent mine to your phone as well. MR. WEINMAN: Mary's just came. Okay. Hold on. I'll put her scores in. MS. LANNIN: Greg. Good. Sort of in reverse order, I apologize. MR. WEINMAN: No worries. Okay. Okay. We have made it. Mary, we're ready. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Good. So Greg, if you could read to us, I'd appreciate that. MR. WEINMAN: Yes. score of a 33 possible points. This is out of a The scores are as follows: number 1 received 20 points, which is just barely the high vote-getter. Number 2 received 3 points, number 2A received 2 points, number 3 received 8, number 4 received 10, number 6 received 6, number 7 received 5, number 8 received 4, number 9 received 5, number 10 received 5, number 11 received 1, number 12 received 1, number 13 received 1, number 14 received 13 points, number 15 received 18 points, number 16 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 52 received 2, and number 17 also received 18 points. So the high vote-getter was number 1, closely followed by 15 and 17 with 18 points. Thank you very much, Greg. MS. LANNIN: Well, it sounds like we need a discussion. Doesn't it? Since it's sort of hard for me to see you raise your hands, who would like to speak? MR. MORAN: I would, Mary. This is Mike. MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: All right. Mike. Mike Moran, for the record. As I closed on this discussion on my part, I said I would let the art decide, and that was really where I wanted it to sort out. But really, when you get down to it, there's a difference between history and innovation, as Donald so aptly stated. And while I gave number 1 three points, I also gave number 15 three points. I'm torn on this one, and I think if I were to do it again, I would vote for the Wright brothers. That's it. MS. LANNIN: All right. Thank you, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 53 Michael. Would anybody else like to add anything? Dr. Brown? DR. BROWN: that I had a few comments. Yes, ma'am. You sensed So Madam Chair, I was wondering, is it possible for me to ask a question of the liaison? Because that may very well affect my vote. MS. LANNIN: If Mr. George is still on, MR. GEORGE: I am. we may. DR. BROWN: I think I'm on. George, this is Lawrence Brown, one of the members of the CCAC. I am sort of interested in getting a sense, how does your fair state plan to publicize more about this coin if you have plans? Or can you share with us what the thinking is? It seems I've lost him. Madam Chair, the reason for my question is that I really respect the comments from my members of the CCAC. I do appreciate that this design is www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 54 meant to be in a series dealing with American innovation. I'm not so sure the underground is not in that same ballpark. Let me explain. Whenever you have a group of individuals who go beyond the call of duty to do something that may put them at risk, I think that represents an innovative spirit in terms of being able to support your brother or your sister. Now, I do realize I asked the question of the liaison. I asked the question because one of my colleagues mentioned that in the good state of Ohio, there's a great amount of pride with respect to the underground railroad. And this is an Ohio coin. So in that respect, I really value what the good state of Ohio said. I value what my colleague of ours from the CCAC says about what happens when he talks to other Ohioans with respect to that. And I, too, am not a factor of Ohio State. I'm always in competition with them in almost any sport, but still, I think that that's something worthy of appreciating, that whenever you reach out your hand to assist another human being, that is not www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 55 something that you can always count upon, and that sense, is to me, in fact, innovative in terms of spirit. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Dr. Brown. Do we have Mr. George on? I thought I heard him at one point. MR. GEORGE: Yes. Can you hear me? MS. LANNIN: Yes. We can. MR. GEORGE: Okay. Yeah. I apologize. I thought I was speaking earlier, but I guess I wasn't. But there is a great deal of interest, and frankly pride, throughout so many Ohio communities about this particular subject. I think the Governor was particularly interested in the underground railroad because he did see it as social innovation for good. And I think one of your members said earlier that innovation is whatever makes the world a better place or the country a better place. And certainly, the underground railroad aimed to do that in the lives of so many people. It estimated, I www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 56 think, 2,000 individuals that passed through the Rankin house up those stairs. powerful thing. It's a really, very And socially, it probably was as powerful as the invention of the aircraft. And Ohio has honored the Wright brothers before. I'm not trying to take anything away from them at all because they also were a source of pride for, I think, throughout the state. But in 2003, which was also the year of the bicentennial of the state of Ohio, the Wright brother aircraft from 1905, which the Wright brothers considered the very first true plane, which you can see today in Dayton, Ohio. That was honored along with an astronaut representing, yes, John Glenn and Neil Armstrong, but the great contributions we've made to aviation as a state. But I think the most important thing for me to say here is that the Governor was really inspired by the social innovation aspect of this. Aircraft is history, too. The underground railroad is history, but they both also are changing the way Americans have lived their lives. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 57 MS. LANNIN: All right. Thank you, Mr. George. So it appears that we have number 1 at 20 points, number -- I think, correct me if I'm wrong, Greg -- 15 at 18 points, and 17 at 18 points. Would someone like to make a motion? MR. TUCKER: This is Dennis Tucker. I would make a motion -DR. KOTLOWSKI: MS. LANNIN: Madam Chair. Dean? Dean spoke in first. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Sorry. Madam Chairperson, I just wanted to echo what Dr. Brown said. I think we want to avoid making a hard distinction between history and innovation. Because there's a whole field called history and technology of science, and we ourselves have looked at aspects of social innovation before in this series. And again, what is leading me toward the underground railroad is that factor, and it is the art that's tipping me in that direction. So I don't know if a motion is needed because number 1 finished www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 58 first. But just to clarify it, I would move that the committee adopt number 1 as our recommended choice. MR. BERNSTEIN: Second. MS. LANNIN: You can't just say "second" without saying your name. MR. BERNSTEIN: This is Art Bernstein, from the buckeye state, is showing a second. MS. LANNIN: All right. And Dennis, did you have a comment? MR. TUCKER: Oh. MS. LANNIN: Okay. native Ohioan beat you. Well, I think the Okay? MR. BERNSTEIN: as quickly as I did. I was just seconding. That's why I jumped in I wanted that honor. MS. LANNIN: All right. Okay. All in favor of taking the artwork from OH-01 as the recommended design say, "Aye." (A chorus of ayes.) Do I have anybody opposing? MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: I oppose it. Okay. So it passes 10 to 1. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 59 MS. SALMON: Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: I'm sorry. MS. SALMON: This is Robin. Yes? I'm sorry, Robin? Could we change the direction of the lettering of the "underground railroad?" not be correct. It seems to Dean had pointed that out earlier. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Robin, make a MS. SALMON: I move that -- motion. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I would regard that as a friendly amendment. MS. LANNIN: All right. with Robin? Okay. So does everybody agree It bothered me, too, so. MR. TUCKER: I do not, but I want the motion to pass, so -- this is Dennis Tucker. MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: you clarify? Mary? Yes? Before you move on, could If you're doing this as a friendly amendment, that means you're not voting yet. Or is www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 60 this a separate motion? If you want to talk about the previous one, then you may want to clarify to see actually how many no votes there were. MS. LANNIN: passed 10 to 1. In the previous motion, it Dean made the motion, and Art seconded it that we accept artwork number OH-01 as the recommended design for the state of Ohio. And then, I believe Robin was trying to make a friendly amendment that we deal with the sort of -- the reversal -- what seems to be reversal of the lettering for "underground railroad." MR. WEINMAN: Yeah. I think technically this would be a separate motion. If the first motion has been voted on, then this is a new motion based on the previous vote. MS. LANNIN: Okay. So Robin, would you like to make the motion? MS. SALMON: I move that the lettering of the "underground railroad" be repositioned. MS. LANNIN: Any seconds? DR. KOTLOWSKI: MS. LANNIN: Second. Dean. Okay. Thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 61 All in favor of Robin -MR. BERNSTEIN: Madam Chair, I have a question. MS. LANNIN: Who said that? MR. BERNSTEIN: It's Art Bernstein who has a question. MS. LANNIN: All right. MR. BERNSTEIN: Before we vote on the second motion, I was intrigued by the placement of the letters. I wondered if someone from the Mint had an explanation as to what was the intent. It went by me, but I thought maybe there's a good explanation. MS. LANNIN: MR. MENNA: Joe Menna, are you there? Yes. This is Joe Menna. There's no good explanation other than that it's the individual artist's particular artistic intent. MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Stop. Okay. Mary. Joe -This is Mike Moran. MS. LANNIN: Yes? MS. WARREN: Wait a minute, please. This is Jennifer. The court reporter had a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 62 question. REPORTER: I just wanted to interrupt just to remind everybody, please announce yourself when you're speaking so that I'll be able to keep up with the record. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much. We're trying. MR. MORAN: Mary. Have I got the floor? MS. LANNIN: All right. Mr. Moran. Announce -MR. MORAN: Yes. Mike Moran. Joe, let's have a more pointed question. If this comes to you like it is now, would you reverse that "underground railroad?" MR. MENNA: No. MR. MORAN: Okay. MS. LANNIN: That's Joe Menna. Okay. MR. MORAN: I just wanted your opinion. MS. LANNIN: Any other opinions about Robin's amendment and Dean's second? The "underground railroad" positioning. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 63 This is Dennis Tucker. MR. TUCKER: I would just say that it seems a bit like design by committee to change something like that. I think it's fine the way it is. MS. LANNIN: discussion on that? All right. Any more And we'll vote on the second amendment of Robin. All in favor, say, "Aye." (A chorus of ayes.) MS. LANNIN: That sounds like three people. Opposed? (A chorus of nays.) MS. LANNIN: I can only count three people that's saying that. Let's do voice vote. Lawrence Brown, yes, or no? DR. BROWN: No. MS. LANNIN: Donald Scarinci, yes, or no? MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: No. Mike Moran, yes, or no? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 64 No. MR. MORAN: MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Tom Uram, yes, or no? No. MS. LANNIN: Dennis is? Robin is yes? Dennis Tucker. MR. TUCKER: No. MS. LANNIN: Okay. I'm afraid that this isn't looking good, Robin. Dr. Dean Kotlowski. DR. KOTLOWSKI: MS. LANNIN: Yes. Art Bernstein. MR. BERNSTEIN: MS. LANNIN: Yes. Dr. Peter van Alfen? DR. VAN ALFEN: MS. LANNIN: Yes? No. Mary Lannin. No. I think that the noes have it. two, three, four, five, six noes. One, Two, four, yes. Two -MR. WEINMAN: noes. No. It would be seven Seven noes. MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: So the motion fails? The motion fails. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 65 And the art remains the MS. LANNIN: way that it is. Okay. I have a little bit of house cleaning that I need to do. At the beginning of our session, an hour and 14 minutes ago, I should have asked if we all agree on the minutes and the letters to the secretary. I need approval of them. DR. BROWN: So moved. This is Dr. Lawrence Brown. MS. LANNIN: Would anyone like to make a motion? DR. BROWN: Lawrence Brown. MS. LANNIN: Okay. So moved. And a second, please. MR. BERNSTEIN: MS. LANNIN: All right. Art Bernstein seconds. Thank you, Art. So I've got that taken care of. MR. WEINMAN: Ask for a voice vote. You got a motion and a second. MS. LANNIN: voice vote on that. So now, the vote. Okay. All right. So a All approved for the letters and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 66 the transcript? (A chorus of ayes.) Opposed? Okay. MR. TUCKER: Nay. MS. LANNIN: 10 to 1? Thank you. Let us move on. Okay. This is Dennis. All right. Here we go. April, I think we're up to Louisiana. MS. STAFFORD: Yes, ma'am. Louisiana, we have two suggested concepts. So for One is jazz music, and the other is The Higgins Boat. If I could just ask for those who are on the phone to mute your mics. Dr. Brown, I believe you might need to mute your mic. MS. LANNIN: Dr. Brown, mute your mic, please. Dr. Brown. Dr. Brown. Mute your mic, please. Thank you. MS. WARREN: Jennifer. Sorry. I've done it. This is I'll go through everybody. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 67 MS. STAFFORD: music and The Higgins Boat. All righty. So jazz The required inscriptions are "United States of America" and "Louisiana." I will note, unfortunately, we don't have a representative from the Governor's office with us today on the call. But the Governor has indicated a strong preference for the theme The Higgins Boat, in particular design number 13. So I'll note that when we get there. First, we're going to look at the candidate designs for the concept of jazz music. Although it is difficult to pinpoint when jazz music was born, there is little question where it originated: New Orleans, Louisiana. Congo Square in New Orleans is thought to be the founding location for the roots of jazz music. Slaves would play drums on "free Sundays" to keep their ancestral tradition alive through rhythms and dance. As the cultural landscape of New Orleans continued to diversify, so did the music culture of the city. Influence from brass bands, orchestras, Mardi Gras revelers, and ragtime groups www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 68 combined to create a unique sound we know as jazz music. Jazz, known for improvisation, forceful rhythm, and syncopation, quickly became a normal part of life in New Orleans in the 19th century, as it was woven throughout the community through events such as Carnival, balls, and even funerals. New Orleans jazz spread to other cities, such as Chicago and New York, as musicians performed on riverboats and show tours. The magnitude of its impact on the world can still be seen today by the influence it has had on the music industry. So we'll start with design 1 for Louisiana. This design depicts the explosion of riffs and runs from an improvisational soloist, an element that is unique to jazz music. Design 2 depicts a baritone sax, a trumpet, and a trombone juxtaposed in an impossible space. The sounds of jazz are visibly conveyed through the confetti of shapes seen throughout the background. A uniquely American art form, jazz is often described as cool, risky, dangerous, and a genre that allows you to "break the rules." www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 69 Design 3 features some of the most popular musical instruments of jazz music, including a trumpet, a trombone, both tenor and alto saxophones, a bass drum, a clarinet, a double bass, a grand piano, and a crash cymbal, illustrating the energy and character of the music. In the background, a full moon adds to the ambiance of jazz music. Design 4 depicts a trio of jazz musicians during a performance and many iconic traditions of jazz performers, including a harmonica, bass, a fedora, and a pinstripe suit. On the border is the additional inscription "jazz." Design 5 captures a close-up of a women's mouth during a jazz performance. Around the border is a fleur-de-lis inspired motif, evoking the state of Louisiana. Designs 6 and 6A depict a singer wrapped up within the surprising rhythms and unpredictable elegance of jazz music. She is surrounded by lush magnolia blossoms and some of the iconic instruments of the genre. Design 6, seen here, includes the additional inscription "the home of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 70 jazz," while 6A incuses the singer in the center circle and includes the alternate inscription "the start of jazz." Design 7 features a central inscription of the word "jazz," stylized with wrought ironwork that is so often seen in the architecture of many businesses and homes in the French Quarter. The many twists, turns, and flourishes of wrought iron mimic the qualities that make jazz music unique. Moving on to the second concept for the state of Louisiana, The Higgins Boat. Andrew Higgins, the man behind Higgins Industries of New Orleans, Louisiana, was known for being an innovator and an entrepreneur. Higgins developed the "Eureka" boat as a craft that could easily navigate the shallow waters of the Louisiana marshes and swamps. This design would later be adapted to military specifications for a landing craft. In 1938, the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps began testing what became known as the "Higgins Boat," the boat that would go on to change the course of World War II. The Landing Craft Vehicle and Personnel, or Higgins Boat, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 71 allowed for military personnel, equipment, and vehicles to easily unload onto an open beach through a front ramp on the boat. Having the capability to maneuver in only 10 inches of water and creating more attack points on the beach, the Higgins Boat changed how the war was fought and dramatically improved the outcome of the Normandy landings. The unorthodox construction used plywood to save money and steel. 23,358 of these vehicles were made during World War II. As President Dwight D. Eisenhower said in a 1964 interview quote, "Andrew Higgins is the man who won the war for us," unquote. So I will note that several of the designs featuring The Higgins Boat may need minor modifications to ensure accuracy. And we can share that as the committee focuses on a particular design. I'll move through them. Design 8 depicts a Higgins Boat as it would have been deployed during World War II with its innovative landing ramp open against a beach. Designs 9 and 9A feature a group of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 72 Higgins Boats during World War II as they deploy soldiers to their landing spot. Design 10A depicts a group of Higgins Boats below the horizon as troops deploy from the landing ramp to the shore. Design 11 depicts two Higgins Boats, illustrating the landing ramp in both open and closed positions. Design 12 features a pair of Higgins Boats, one empty with its landing ramp up and secured. The second is beginning to offload troops and equipment with the ramp deployed. Design 13 depicts a Higgins Boat with its ramp in the lowered position while troops actively disembark at their chosen landing site. The additional inscription is "home of The Higgins Boat." I will note that this is the preference of the Governor of Louisiana. MS. LANNIN: Thank you very much, April. So Joe and Ron, do you have any issues with any of the coins for Louisiana? The designs. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 73 MR. MENNA: This is Joe Menna. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Joe. I do not. Ron, you're okay with all that? MR. HARRIGAL: fine. Yeah. The designs are This is Ron Harrigal. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Does anybody in the committee want to talk about any technical things for these designs? MR. SCARINCI: No technical things, but can I go first, Mary, when you get a chance? MS. LANNIN: Absolutely. Why doesn't Donald Scarinci go first. MR. SCARINCI: you know, we're in Louisiana. It's jazz. So I just want to say, Right. We're in jazz. You know, so our choice here is something that, you know, was such an innovation in music that is uniquely American. Uniquely American. That changed everything in music, that uplifted people, that took people's spirits up and made them soar, lifted them out of their life, out of their daily squalor, and you know, made them happy, inspired them. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 74 You know, and we still today are inspired by jazz and by the influence that jazz has had on our lives. all of our lives. Everyday. On When we turn on the radio in our car, there's inspiration. On the other hand, we have a coin that each one of the designs, none of them are particularly compelling, and what they want to commemorate at the end of the day, yeah, it was a fight for freedom, but it killed people. The thing killed people. So are we going to vote for something that inspired people and lifted people up or something that killed people? And honestly, every single one of these jazz designs is gorgeous. So to me, notwithstanding what the state wants, I think it's jazz. This is a no-brainer to me. And you know, I will go with any one of these jazz designs because they're all gorgeous. The artist did a fabulous job. But of course, they did a fabulous job. They're dealing with something that inspires, and they probably were playing jazz when they designed the coin. You know, this is a no-brainer to me. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 75 So I'm sorry, but I'll go with anything from 1 to 7, and I'll listen, you know, to any of the design elements. You know, they're all beautiful coins, and they would make great designs. My least favorite, you know, would probably be, you know, design number 4. But honestly, you know, I'll compromise just to get one of the jazz designs. That's it. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Donald. What I like about you is you never have an opinion. Dean Kotlowski, please. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Thank you, Madam Chairperson. And I'm going to put my video on. is just a little bit of explanation here. I've been kind of on and off with the video and the mute. feel like I'm under siege. This I I had leaf blowers on one side and lawnmowers on the other. So many apologies. I find myself agreeing quite a bit with Don, actually. This is a tough choice. Again, I wish we could give out two coins to Louisiana because the Eisenhower quote was extremely important with The Higgins Boat. I, again, you know, building on what www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 76 Don said, he said it very strongly and very forcefully. I really wasn't taken tremendously with any of the designs with The Higgins Boat. Nothing really stood out for me. And again, Don, following in your footsteps and being opinionated, I really didn't like number 13. I thought it focused too much on the idea of combat. I mean, I understand that's ultimately what this was about, and it was about freedom, and it was about winning the war. important. All of this is very, very It's important stuff, but we do an awful lot with the military. And you know, some of the other designs, 9 and 9A, I had to look at that very, very carefully. And it's not my intention to be real critical of the artist. I thought, having visited Europe, that there was some sort of, like, castle or a fortress in the background, and they were landing on the beaches. succession. I didn't see that as three boats in So I'm not sure which of The Higgins Boats I would have gone for. I might have just gone for the safe choice, which was 10A, which somehow www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 77 manages to combine the boats and the people. But I really had a favorite with the jazz, and that was number 5. cool. I thought it was very I thought it was extraordinarily modern. broke rules by not having the word "jazz" there. having musical instruments. It And I wasn't really taken with a lot of the designs that had the musical instrument. I saw the point, but I didn't find them tremendously inspiring. And I love the fleur-de-lis. I thought that this was really wonderful, and having a woman singing here, I got a sense of liberation here. And inspiration. And I think that this was just amazing and wonderful. And the very last point that I'm going to raise because I seem to be going on quite a bit today, I'll give a shoutout to 6 and 6A, which were a little busy, and I didn't quite get the flower. But I also liked number 7, just for the simplicity and the power. Thank you, Madam Chairperson. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much, Dean. Mr. Mike Moran, please. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 78 MR. MORAN: about that. I'm here, Mary. A little slow on the mute. Sorry I was really trying to digest Dean's comments. I'm not a fan of The Higgins Boat designs. I thought they were average at best. And I can go on with a few variations with what Donald said on all of it there, as well as Dean. I liked number 1. It's jazz. I thought there was just enough negative space there to make that one go. I like the way they handled the inscriptions. I thought it was very artistic and well done. I would call attention to 6 and 6A, and just the one little change to me made all the difference in the world, and that's the going with -- instead of the detail of the singer and the microphone -- going with the silhouette. I'm assuming that would be incused, and I think that makes a really good design. So I'm going to be voting for 1 and 6A. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much, Mike. Peter van Alfen. DR. VAN ALFEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 79 I have to admit that I wasn't particularly moved by a lot of The Higgins Boat depictions as well. In fact, I found that the Governor's preference, you know, really did seem to focus much more on the combatants, the soldiers, than the boat itself. Which, you know, is a little unusual considering the fact that it really should be about the boat. For that reason, you know, the design number 11, which focuses only on the boat, you know, would be my preference here. You know, again, partly because of the simplicity of this design without a lot of the confusion of the combat behind it. I do have to agree that I find jazz to be a much more uplifting innovation, but I didn't really find myself particularly moved by a lot of the designs in the jazz portfolio. I do agree with Dean that number 5 is a rather intriguing design, and I think that this would be my preference for the jazz portfolio. And I do like number 7 as well. just because of the simplicity. Again, So that's what I've www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 80 got to say. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Peter. Tom Uram, please. MR. URAM: Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm kind of going to make it simple as well. I'm going with 6A, and the reason why is, first of all, I believe that's the state flower of Louisiana. And I do like 5 -- I'd like to see the fleur-de-lis on 6A. It's too bad it's not there, but it would have been fine had it been next to the trumpet or near that saxophone. But I like the keyboard wraps around and becomes a drum symbol, and then you have the lady singing, or whoever you want to make it believe is singing in the symbol of the drum. So I just think it wraps uniquely a lot of Louisiana history into one. So I'm going with 6A. That's it. MS. LANNIN: Thanks, Tom. Robin Salmon, please. MS. SALMON: Yeah. jazz as the theme for this coin. I also preferred I did like number 1. The fact that it is slightly off-center appeals to me. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 81 I also like the fact that it's depicting improvisation. about. And to me, that's what jazz is all The lettering is nice, and it's not terribly complicated. Number 6A also caught my eye. That is the magnolia, the state flower of Mississippi [sic]. The counterclockwise movement, all of that I found very appealing, and I think it would make a nice design. And number 7, I also liked. Not only for the wrought iron reference and the simplicity, but it's probably the least complicated of all of these designs, and I think it still sends a strong message about the history of jazz. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Thanks so much, Robin. Sam Gill, please. MR. GILL: Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, Donald started this conversation off perfectly for me. Varied for me with The Higgins Boat, and just, I quite honestly, just didn't even consider it for this series, for my opinion. the designs for jazz. I love I love the notion of the jazz, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 82 and I'm all for that. I like 6 and 6A very, very much. I'd prefer 6A probably, but I liked the wording "home of jazz" instead of "the start of jazz." And that's just my personal preference because I would like that Louisiana to be designated as the home of jazz. I also like number 7 for the simplicity, as Robin says. message across. And it certainly gets the But I'm definitely a jazz fan and would like to see this coin go in that direction. Thank you very much. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Sam. Dennis Tucker. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. I think that this portfolio, the choice between either jazz music or The Higgins Boat, helps put to rest this artificial construct that we need to make a decision between scientific innovation and cultural innovation. I think there's room for all of these different types of innovation in this program. So just as Ohio's Governor affirmed that, I believe that Louisiana's Governor affirms that as well. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 83 Innovation can be spiritual, can be humanistic, musical, artistic, et cetera. organic. It doesn't need to be technical. It can be It doesn't need to be a scientist sitting down at a draft table and coming up with an engineering plan. Innovation, going back to my definition from earlier, is the creation of something that improves the way we live our lives. something that addresses a need. And it's In this case, jazz was a way to keep ancestral traditions alive, and The Higgins Boat was a way to win a war. Both served very important needs -- but very different. My preference is for jazz for Louisiana. And I really like design number 1. As Robin said, there's something energetic about the way it's presented off balance and the way the word "jazz" is incorporated into the perimeter. I like the energy and the uniqueness of this design style. I also liked number 4. I thought that was an interesting style for this particular theme. like 5. 7 caught my eye. But I don't want to dilute too much my focus on number 1 as my choice for the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I Meeting May 18, 2021 84 strongest, most energetic, and "jazzy" of the jazz designs. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Dennis. Dr. Lawrence Brown. DR. BROWN: This is Lawrence Brown. And Madam Chair, thank you so much for having me to come near the end of the comments by my colleagues because I find myself a bit in the opposite direction of what I was in the last selection of Ohio. I think Dennis made some good comments with respect to the fact of when we talk about innovation. And as much as I would probably lean in the direction of jazz, as someone who served in the military, as someone who has been somewhat of an admirer of one of our most famous Presidents, who was, in fact, a general in World War II, when he says that this won the war for us, that allowed us to have generations of us who are here today because many of us may have had ancestors who, in fact, were in that great war, and were it not for this boat, might have not been able to survive. So as much as I can't say I loved the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 85 designs of The Higgins Boat, I want to make sure the public understands that this is not a slam dunk. This is, in fact, quite challenging to really say, at least for me as someone who is a veteran of the military. And again, in the interest of transparency, I flew to my position. States to Vietnam. I flew from the I did not take a boat, nor was I on a boat anytime that I was there. But when I think about the great war, and in fact, how many people that we've lost, and hear about this, I think as unattractive as the design is, the significance is, to me, substantially much more. So while I will vote for, in fact, jazz because I am certainly a supporter of jazz music, more contemporary than -- but still, I just wanted to say that if I -- on the citizens of the United States -- say that this indeed was an important innovation for all Americans. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Thank you. Art Bernstein, please. MR. BERNSTEIN: This is Art Bernstein. And if the purpose of these meetings is that we listen www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 86 to our colleagues and hear what they have to say, and consider their opinions, I have to tell you that it's been a big success today because I came into this conversation absolutely convinced that the coin had to be The Higgins Boat. And I still think there's merit in that, but as I heard the discussion about jazz, I've completely switched my position in the last 10 minutes. And I think I'll be casting my votes for the design number 7. Now that I'm convinced jazz is the way to go, that particular design with the iron filigree detail, to me that word just jumps off of the coin, sends the message, and that's the design I like the best. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Art. You're new on the committee, but I totally agree with you. My favorite design of all was number 7. It's the tabletop test that I keep talking about. If we had all of these designs on a coin and put them all on a counter, which one would you pick up? And I bet everybody wants to feel the reliefs on the "jazz" in design 7. I think that the Mint could do so much www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 87 really cool stuff with it. It's clean. It's simple. The filigree of the wrought iron railings reminds you of being in the French Quarter, reminds you of good times that you have, and also, jazz is an ongoing innovation. You know, you don't go back to hear the same song over and over. There is no same song over and over. It just changes. number 7. Although, I really see the merits of people that liked number 1. So my favorite of all is I like the way the "jazz" was worked into the coin at that point -- or the design at that point. So that is my opinion. And do we have any further comments to be made? MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: Mary? Yeah? I just want to say something very briefly in response to Dennis because I don't want to leave what Dennis said un-responded to. MS. LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: Okay. You know, and I just don't want that comparison between an innovation in www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 88 art and the underground railroad, you know, which is history to stand. I mean, you know, for millennia, there was -- you know -- there was injustice, and there was slavery, and there was man's inhumanity to man. And there were others who couldn't stand by and watch that inhumanity occur, and they responded with their compassion and put their lives at risk to save others. You know, even though in the face of inhumanity, they did that. That wasn't innovation. compassion. That was human And that was, you know, an absolute desire to, you know, to eradicate injustice. And we all share that desire and need to eradicate injustice. The underground railroad, you know, wasn't an innovation, you know. There's no comparison to that as an innovation and innovations in other areas. So for example, if New York were to come back to us, you know, and put a Jackson Pollock picture, you know, as something that they want to consider an innovation in art, you know, that's an innovation that changed art. Right. It changed the paradigm. So I don't think the two things are www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 89 equivalent. You know, I don't want to revisit the discussion about history, but we just voted on a very important piece of history. history. But Ohio, that coin is That's not innovation. So you can't convince me that the underground railroad was innovation. And so that you know, here in New Jersey, there's -- you know -- I'm actually one of the big contributors to the Ackerman House in Passaic. The Ackerman House was part of the underground railroad in New Jersey, which we in New Jersey are very proud of. And the Ackerman House was part of the underground railroad, and what they did, was they built a tunnel that went into the Passaic River, which wasn't polluted the way it is today. And that's how we -- you know -- that's how we moved, you know, people seeking freedom, you know, to get their freedom. So you know, an innovation, no. No. No more of an innovation than, you know, what human beings did to save other human beings during World War II and hiding them, and feeding them, and making sure www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 90 that they were safe, and putting their own lives at risk to do that. Important. them, absolutely yes. Are they heroes? An innovation, no. All of That's all I wanted to say. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thanks, Donald. You're on the record with that. All right. MR. TUCKER: Dennis. Madam Chair, this is If I can respond to that, I will do so briefly. MS. LANNIN: Okay. MR. TUCKER: And Donald, I know that you and I are probably going to have similar disagreements in the future, which is fine. I do believe that the underground railroad is an innovation of communication, transportation, logistics, and organization, even though, as we noted, it was not a centralized effort in that sense. It was an innovation that had important consequences. It delivered tens of thousands of slaves to freedom. So you know, it addressed a need, as innovations do. It was woven into the culture and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 91 politics of the time and of succeeding years. It influenced American laws and encouraged the South to push for stronger fugitive slave acts, which of course, affected national politics, exacerbated the disagreements between North and South, which, you know, of course, led to the Civil War. So it was significant. I guess we'll just have to disagree on whether or not it was an innovation. I think -MS. LANNIN: Okay. You both -- Thank you, Dennis. opinions. MR. TUCKER: You think -- MS. LANNIN: Okay. You both have your They're on the record now. And I think we need to vote on the Louisiana art, please. So if you take a look at your sheets and can fill them and we can get them to Greg, it is 2:47. If we have about 10 minutes. three o'clock. We're almost at We can finish with Louisiana. Thank you. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: DR. VAN ALFEN: Thank you. Madam Chair, this is www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 92 Peter van Alfen. MS. LANNIN: Yes, Peter? DR. VAN ALFEN: While we're waiting if I can just make a comment as well about the innovation. I skimmed over Public Law 115-197. It does not define innovation, which means then that it is basically up to the states themselves to define, you know, what innovation is for themselves and to come up with concepts. So I'm not really sure if it is our place to decide what innovation is or is not, but rather just deal with, you know, what is sent our way in terms of the designs. I think that both Donald and Dennis have made compelling arguments one way or the other, but again, because the law does not define innovation, you know, our hands in this matter, I think, are effectively tied. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you for your comments, Peter. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Madam Chair, this is Dean Kotlowski. MS. LANNIN: Yes, Dean? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 93 DR. KOTLOWSKI: Yeah. I'm not going to enter this conversation or this particular subtopic, but I just wanted to say something. Don made a very, very good point about New Jersey having its own underground railroad. And Indiana was very, very active in the underground railroad, and Levi Coffin was in Indiana, and he was reputedly the president of the underground railroad, so you get different states that can make claims on the underground railroad. And it's interesting as we go forward with this innovation series. I think we've talked about this in other points, but this is something that I think we were briefed on, that multiple states can make claims about being innovators in the same area, and that's okay. And Indiana, as we're going to see, chose not to do this. New Jersey chose not to do this with the underground railroad. could have. And Ohio did. Pennsylvania also So it's trying to strike that balance. Don, if I can address you personally, when we were looking at the snowboarding with Vermont, it was actually a couple of guys from New Jersey who www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 94 developed the snowboard, so I was actually going to say something when we were doing that quite a while ago. And actually, snowboarding really took off in Michigan. But when we were discussing this, I mean, part of it is state cultural identity. And we can challenge that, and we can play into it. It's really circumstantial what we want to do with each coin. And Vermont obviously felt winter sports is really important, and snowboarding. And you know, I don't want to revisit that, but it's like there are really no rules with this innovation. I mean, this is America at its best. This is pragmatism, our homegrown philosophy. And we just play it case by case, and that's what I'm doing right now. MR. WEINMAN: Real quickly. Sorry. Robin, I got a blank e-mail from you. I didn't get a sheet. MR. BERNSTEIN: I'm pleased to see how much discussion the state of Ohio is getting. MS. LANNIN: Glad to hear it. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 95 You know, this is what MR. SCARINCI: numismatics -MS. WARREN: Reminder. This is Jennifer. Please, identify yourselves. You're still on the record, and the reporter can't tell who is who. MR. SCARINCI: Thank you, Jennifer. Thank you. This is Donald Scarinci. And you know, this is what numismatics is all about. debates. You know, it's about having, you know, It's about thinking -- you know -- presenting this on a coin, and having these kinds of -- you know -- these kinds of debates and discussions and dialogue. And this is why a lot of people get involved in numismatics because it does inspire this exact conversation that we're having here. And you know, as time passes and these coins, you know, become coins and become collected and become, you know, put in holders, and you know, and part of the nation's, you know, numismatic history, they're going to read our transcript, and it's part of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 96 the numismatic record. And what we are discussing is really, you know, just scratching the surface of what a lot of people are going to be writing about. You know, which is why, you know, people like us are so focused on it and spend so much time on it, you know, because we are collectors. you know, we are inspired by this. And So these are very important dialogues, and we won't always all agree. You know, but it's the dialogue that makes this America. MR. WEINMAN: Excuse me a second. Robin, did you get my message? Did you hear me earlier that there was no attachment to your e-mail? Okay. through. Never mind. It just came Thank you, Robin. MS. SALMON: MR. WEINMAN: Okay. Good. Donald, are you there? This is Greg. Donald? Can you hear me? MS. WARREN: MR. WEINMAN: Greg, he just got back. Donald, check the text to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 97 me. I want to make sure that it's clear. Look at your first text, and then look at your second one. MR. SCARINCI: Yeah. MR. WEINMAN: Got it. I'll send it again. Thanks. Okay, Mary. We're ready. MS. LANNIN: Okay, Greg. If everybody's back, would you please read out the vote count? MR. WEINMAN: Yes. Once again, out of 33, design 1 has 15 points, design 2 has 4 points, design 3 has 3 points, design 4 has 4 points, design 5 has 10 points, design 6 has 10 points, design 6A has 20 points, design 7 has 22 points, making it the high vote-getter. Design 8 has 3, design 9 has 4, design 9A has 4, design 10A has 4, design 11 has 7, design 12 has 4, design 13 has 5. So once again, the high vote-getter was 7 with 22 points, followed closely behind by 6A with 20 points. MS. LANNIN: Let's see. Thank you very much, Greg. Maybe we could get that up www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 98 on the screen if we could, design number 7. So does anybody have any further debate on this design? I think it's terrific. MR. MORAN: Mary, this is Mike Moran. MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: between 6 and 6A? All right. Do we have a split vote Because sometimes we do, and there's not a lot of difference between those two designs, and in this case, that would make a difference. MR. WEINMAN: You do. I mean, obviously, 6 only garnered a score of 10, 6A garnered a score of 20. MR. MORAN: Greg, did anybody vote for 6 and not vote for 6A? MR. WEINMAN: MR. MORAN: Okay. MR. WEINMAN: and didn't vote for 6A. No. No. Enough said. No one voted for 6 That is correct. MR. MORAN: MS. LANNIN: I'm done. All right. So it seems that we have a winner in number 7, which I think is www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 99 going to be texturally and visually a beautiful reverse. Thank you very much for that. Are there any further motions on that? Okay. I don't hear anything, so we will go back to April Stafford to talk to us about the state of Indiana design for the American Innovation $1 Coin. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you, Madam Chair. Indiana has a single concept submitted. It is for the automobile industry. Indiana boasts a long history of innovation in automobile manufacturing and promoting the role of the automobile in American culture. Hoosiers played a role in the invention, refinement, and manufacturing of headlights, rearview mirrors, tilt steering, cruise control, pneumatic rubber tires, and car heaters. Indiana produced a prolific number of auto parts manufacturing and automobile manufacturers, including Marmon, Studebaker, Stutz, and Duesenberg. Hoosiers also promoted the automobile in American popular culture through car racing and long-distance highways. Carl Fisher, who was among the most www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 100 prolific Hoosiers in the automobile industry, has a legacy that includes the promotion and distribution of an early form of headlights for motor vehicles in the U.S. auto industry, his early automobile dealership, and the creation of the Indianapolis 500. Today, the Indy 500 is one of the world's oldest currently operational automobile races and the world's largest sporting event in terms of attendance, and it is considered part of the Triple Crown of Motorsport. Fisher also conceived of and promoted, the transcontinental east-west Lincoln Highway, the first automobile-specific transcontinental highway across the United States. Inventors Ralph Teetor and Sylvanus Bowser were among many Hoosiers contributing inventions that would become standard on the modern automobile. Teetor, who lost his sight in a childhood accident, was an engineer and prolific inventor. He invented cruise control to improve safety and fuel efficiency. Bowser is widely credited with inventing the automobile fuel pump. The introduction of automobiles, mainly powered by gasoline, led him to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 101 develop the "Self-Measuring Gasoline Storage Pump," launched in 1905. Required inscriptions are "United States of America" and "Indiana." And I should note that although we do not have a representative from the Indiana Governor's office, we do know that the governor has indicated a preference for design 5 in this portfolio, and you see that here. In particular, we understood that this design was preferred by the Governor because it depicts the history all the way to the modern-day technology involved in the automobile industry, and in this way also asks the question, "What could be next?" for this industry. All right. Let's start with design 1. This design depicts a wheel design inspired by a 1920s Marmon automobile. The Marmon Wasp won the inaugural Indianapolis 500 in 1911. Design 2 features an imagined dashboard superimposed over the image of a pneumatic rubber tire. The dashboard contains many of the conveniences brought to automobiles by Indiana inventors or www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 102 manufacturers, including a rearview minor, acetylene headlamps, a tilt steering wheel, cruise control, and a car heater. Design 3 showcases several of the innovations that Indiana companies and inventors contributed to the automobile industry. A gas pump and speedometer are seen across the top half of the design. Across the bottom, a race car speeds by on a stylized road and references the advancements made in motorsports. Design 4 depicts a progression of car styles through the years. Many innovative automakers contributed to the development of automobiles in Indiana, as well as many improvements in safety and convenience. Design 5, again the preference of the Governor's office, features a series of vehicles that showcase innovations from yesterday and today. From top to bottom, the design includes an early style gas automobile, a representation of classic car production, and a recent model of an Indy-style race car. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 103 Design 6 represents the growing popularity of racing in Indiana, with a turn-of-the-century race car positioned at the starting line. Racing necessitated several automobile improvements, including the addition of a rearview mirror. Design 7 depicts a single touring car from the 1920s, representing Indiana's automotive innovations. The classic silhouette represents a time when many companies in Indiana were focused on manufacturing and engineering for the automobile or its parts. Design 8 juxtaposes a portion of an early gear shifting mechanism with a vehicle in which it may have been installed, representing many of the ways Indiana companies contributed to the automobile industry. Designs 9, 9A, 10, and 11 depict a gas pump, a most necessary item for travel by car. It is paired with a sedan positioned above a map of the Lincoln Highway, the first coast-to-coast highway, proposed by Carl Fisher of Indiana. The additional www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 104 inscription is "automotive pioneers." 9A alters the placement of the Lincoln Highway in the design. Design 10 removes the gas pump and includes an original Lincoln Highway marker, along the alternate inscription "automotive ideas and innovation." And design 11 includes both the Lincoln Highway marker and the gas pump. That concludes the candidate designs for Indiana, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thank you very much, April. I would like to start with Dr. Peter van Alfen, please. DR. VAN ALFEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. I have to admit, I found some of the designs in this portfolio really quite compelling, particularly numbers 1 through 3. From a design perspective, I really quite liked them. My concern, however, is that it might not be entirely clear that these are always associated with automobiles, especially number 2. You know, just looking at that on a coin, it might not be immediately clear what that www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 105 design depicts, even though I do find that, you know, quite compelling. I do have some issues with the Governor's choice of number 5, simply because the design seems to depict a 1896 Ford Quadricycle, which was actually made in Michigan. And the modern Indy-style racing car may or may not have been manufactured in Indiana. might have been. The Duesenberg in the middle But you know, again, you know, the association with Indiana is not particularly strong here, and I don't find this a particularly compelling design nonetheless. I think that in terms of associating automobiles and Indiana, number 6 probably is the strongest design, and also just immediately brings to mind the Indy 500, which you know, again, is very closely associated both with, you know, automobiles, automobile racing, and Indiana. So this would be my preference out of the portfolio. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thank you. Thank you so much, Peter. Dr. Dean Kotlowski. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 106 DR. KOTLOWSKI: Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I find myself agreeing quite a bit with Peter's comments. I think this is a good example of how multiple states can claim an innovation. When you think about automobiles, you, of course, think of Michigan and Detroit, but Indiana was huge in this area. In the height of American manufacturing, it ranked either second behind Michigan or third behind Michigan and Ohio. Very, very important. And like Peter, I found the first three, number 1, 2, and 3, to be quite compelling. It's not going to surprise anybody that I like number 1 the best. I like this design. We had a chance to do a design like this for the Pennsylvania turnpike. I think the tire, the simplicity, the circularity, I think it's a real winner. And again, just to reiterate Peter, and Madam Chair, the test you mentioned before about picking up a coin. table. Number 1, I would pick up on a And I want to also pick up number 2 and try to figure out what it was. But number 2 might make me www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 107 too hard in terms of trying to get it all straight. But it's a very strong design, as is number 3. I like the play of the circles, the circular nature, and the angles, and bringing it all together. And just to conclude my comments, Peter had me see number 6 in a new light, and I may give that some points. I just didn't find number 5 tremendously moving or inspiring. It just seemed that these three automotive vehicles were merging together. And I see what the Governor was trying to do here in emphasizing a kind of evolution here to the Indy car, which is, again, what you associate with Indiana. But Indiana automotive history is much more than the Indy car. General Motors towns. Muncie and Anderson were big So I'm going to give most of my support to 1, 2, and 3. And the later ones that showed the Lincoln Highway are at least worth a shoutout there for the Lincoln Highway, but the gas pump was a little bit too prominent for me for those. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thanks so much, Dean. Tom Uram. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 108 MR. URAM: Thanks, Mary. Can you hear me okay? MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: I can hear you just fine. Okay. This might be a chance for me to get some redemption with the artist as it relates to the tire and being alluded to with Pennsylvania. So I'm all in on 1 and 2, and I'm probably all in more on number 2 than I am number 1. I liked them both, but with all the innovations that are encircled there, I think it says a lot. And keep in mind, this is a noncirculating coin. It's going to come in a package with a lot of detail and a lot of information. So it's not a case where we really have to try and figure some of the things out because they will be there. So I'm all in probably more on 2 than 1, but I hope it's the same artist. And I hope it's the same artist from the Pennsylvania Turnpike, and because obviously, I went strongly with Polio vaccine innovation. But I'm going to give all the artist here some high merits. ideas. I think that this was a lot of good I really like the number 3 there, the use of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 109 the quarter page, and the half-page, and the bottom quarter kind of breaking it out. as well. That's very clever But I'm going to go number 2 pretty much here for the tire and with the availability of all the description within the packaging and so forth. So thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thanks so much, Tom. Arthur Bernstein, please. MR. BERNSTEIN: This is Art Bernstein, and I echo everything I've heard so far. I like the circularity of 02 with the geometric inside of it and all the different innovations featured on the coin, and I think we're getting a lot for our money on that particular coin. I also like 06. Much like the comment I made concerning the jazz coin a moment ago, to me, in 06, the historical racecar seems to be coming right at you. It's very dramatic, and I like the way it's presented. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thanks so much, Art. Robin Salmon, please. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 110 This is Robin Salmon. MS. SALMON: 1, 2, and 3, of course, grabbed me for all the same reasons that they've grabbed everyone else. Because it is a coin that comes with a lot of information, I think anyone of those three designs can be utilized and be strong. appealing. People will like them. They'll be Using Mary's test, I think it works for any of those. If I had a choice over any of the three, I'd probably go a little bit more toward number 3, simply because of the variations and curves, circle designs, right angles. many reasons. That just appeals to me for so And I also like the fact that "automobile industry" was added in. is on its side. And that Indiana I like that. I thought that all of these designs were quite interesting. of thought into it. thinking about. The artist really put a lot And those are the three that I'm Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thanks so much, Robin. Sam Gill. MR. GILL: Thank you, Madam Chair. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 111 As many of you know, I like coins that kind of tell a story. And I like number 11 because it captures the Indiana's love of automobiles and how quickly they adapted them for their long ways between cities there. I love the old gas pump and then the Lincoln Highway. So that would probably be my number 1. But I hear everybody on number 3. think that's very, very innovative. I I like it a lot. And I like number 6 as well because the brickyard is something else and something to behold. So the art is quite good on all of these, and I'd be happy with any of those that I just talked about. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Sam. Dennis Tucker. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. And I agree with you, Sam. I found this portfolio to be challenging because there's so much good craftsmanship in it, and I love old cars. So for me, this was a challenging portfolio in a good way. I found my eye drawn to number 4 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 112 because of its unique perspective. I think this was one of the first coins, maybe the only coin I've seen where there's a first-person perspective with an automobile. It's showing you, the viewer, as seated in the car looking out. that. And I was really struck by I thought that was a remarkable way to frame this theme. And then, it's got automobiles from other eras, and it spells out the significance of the theme, "innovative automobile engineering," and the name of the state is nice and big. So number 4 had a lot going for it for me. Number 5, to me, was a bit -- how to put this. I feel like it depends too much on fading to dazzle us here. And obviously, when a coin is struck, it's going to be struck in an alloy, and those nuances of fading will not be as pronounced as they are in a drawing. I also worry a bit about the fineness of the detail. And something that I often say in our committee meetings is that you'd be surprised how much detail the Mint's artists really can put in a small one-inch or slightly bigger canvas. So I don't think www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 113 that fine detail is necessarily a bad thing, but overly busy detail can be distracting to the eye. And I think that this one on a canvas this size, I think design 5 would start to show some weaknesses. I like 6. I think 6 is actually one of the most well-balanced designs in this portfolio. like its use of white space. I It spells out what it's about, and it's just a neat design. It's a great view of this automobile, and I think it has a lot of appeal. I think for these reasons, numbers 4 and 6 are going to get my strongest support. Congratulations to the Mint's artist and the AIP artist who submitted for this portfolio. Wonderful designs. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thanks, Dennis. Dr. Lawrence Brown. DR. BROWN: Lawrence Brown. Good afternoon. This is And I'd like to echo a lot of the comments by my colleagues. This is phenomenal. again, I want to salute the artist for that. And If I haven't said so already, this was, in fact, a major www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 114 contribution, and I really appreciate it from the standpoint of the general public. For the benefit of, in fact, being expeditious, I would lean towards designs 3, 4, and 6. Those are the ones that I was most impressed with. So I will end it there, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thank you so much. Donald Scarinci. Donald, are you there? MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: earlier about design 1. Okay. Yes. Okay. So I like what Dean said You know, I, you know, I just think that's a -- you know -- a very -- you know -very compelling design. I liked it in the previous coins we've considered, and I like it no less here. And you know, I think some of the other, you know, designs are -- you know -- are very nice, you know, but the one -- 2 just -- you know -- I think, really, Dean hit it right on. 2 makes you -- you know -- makes you kind of look at it, and wonder, kind of, what it is. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 115 And maybe you can figure it out, and maybe you can't. You know, it's so different than anything that we're -- you know -- that we know today. Whereas, number 1, you know, is what it is, and it's pretty clear. So I think number 1 is the choice. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thank you, Donald. Michael Moran. MR. MORAN: Mike Moran. Okay. Thank you, Mary. I'm almost clean up here, so I won't go over all of these. To me, I think there's some special attributes to number 3 that need to be emphasized. Most of you have already hit those. But the way it divides the coin up into, basically, uneven quadrants, and then turns right around and ties it all back together with the fictionalized road and the gasoline hose, or the pump, and it's all out of balance, and yet, it is in balance. I think it's excellent, and it's one of the more innovative compositions -- that's the word I want -- compositions to express a design theme that I've seen. So I'm putting my votes on this one. Thank you, Mary. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 116 MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thanks, Mike. And I agree with most of my colleagues that said number 1, 2, and 3 were just eye-catching. I totally agree with that. I initially wanted to make number 1 my favorite until I looked up the headquarters of Goodrich, which is North Carolina, and Goodyear, which is in Ohio. So I think those states might be a little bit miffed that the automobile tire was attached to Indiana, shall we say. But I really, really, really like this design. 2, I completely agree with Dean. You know, you have to puzzle over it for a while, and then you just give up. News to me. That's a heater at the bottom? I have no idea. I like 3. I love the fact that Indiana is turned upside down on its head. in the gas station. like the road. It matches the gas I like everything about it. I I like the fact that the gas pump handle is kind of in the air. You just filled your car, and you're ready to go on the road. "automobile industry." And it says I don't know how much more we could explain it other than 3. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 117 I think number 5, which is the Governor's selection, has just got too much stuff going on. As Peter brought up, these cars may or may not have been assembled in Indiana, and as someone who needs the opportunity, shall I say, to answer the letters that people write in. When we choose art for coins that they disagree with, people are looking at every single tiny thing. the job done. And so to me, 3 is whimsical. It gets I think I'm in a convertible. It's a sunny day, and let's go. I think that number 3 gets all my votes. So does anybody have any further things that they want to add about this portfolio? We're all so quiet. All right. Does anybody from the Mint have anything to say about the portfolio? Okay. Hearing no comments, please e-mail your scores, or text them to Greg. now 3:22. And it is We will see if we can't get this done by possibly 3:30 or so. MR. WEINMAN: I'm ready for you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 118 Thank you. MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: Send them forward. Tom, I don't understand your message. Take a look at it again. DR. BROWN: Mary? MS. LANNIN: DR. BROWN: Yeah? May I say something? MS. LANNIN: DR. BROWN: Yes, Lawrence. In the interest of transparency, I just want to let everyone know, as a Brooklyn boy, I was immediately amazed when I visited the Indianapolis 500, so I crossed that one off my bucket list, particularly -MS. LANNIN: Congratulations. Good for you. MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: Greg. Okay. Ooh. Mary, we're ready. Two minutes early, Good. Is everybody ready to hear the scores? Why don't you start to read them, Greg. MR. WEINMAN: 33 points. Okay. Once again, out of Number 1 has 17 points, number 2 has 12 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 119 points, number 3 is the high vote-getter with 23 points, number 4 has 9, number 5 has 2, number 6 has 18, number 7 has 3, number 8 has 3, number 9 has 2, 9A has 2, 10 has 3, and 11 has 5. Once again, the high vote-getter, clearly, in this case, is number 3 with 23 points. MS. LANNIN: Well, that's great. Thank you very much, Greg. All right. Does anybody have any motions on this? Okay. So if the discussion is concluded, we're going to go to the last portfolio for consideration. I think that we've done a really great job for Indiana in picking number 3. I think it's a marvelous design. All right. April, I'm tossing it back to you with the reverse candidate designs for the Mississippi 2023 American Innovation $1 coin. MS. STAFFORD: much. Wonderful. Thank you so We have two design concepts for the state of Mississippi. One, the Delta blues music, and two, the first human lung transplant. The governor has www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 120 indicated a preference for design 13. And on the phone with us should be Ms. Laura Hipp, who is Chief Marketing Officer for the Mississippi Development Authority and our appointed liaison to this program. Ms. Hipp, if you are with us, would you like to say a few words? MS. HIPP: Yes. for considering these designs. Hello. Just, thanks And you know, I think Governor Reeves has a preference for highlighting some unknown facts about Mississippi. I don't think people often think of our contributions to science and technology in medical innovation, and I think that goes to the root of why he preferred number 13 as a coin choice. MS. STAFFORD: appreciate you joining us. Thank you so much. We And as we go through the candidate designs, members may have questions that they'd like to pose to you. So we'll move first through the candidate designs developed for the Delta blues music. Some background on this concept. The Delta blues originated in the Mississippi Delta, a region of the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 121 U.S. stretching from the upper northwest corner of Mississippi to Vicksburg, Mississippi, in the south and from the Mississippi River in the west to the Yazoo River in the east. Guitar and harmonica are its dominant instruments; slide guitar is a hallmark of the style. Vocal styles in Delta blues range from introspective and soulful to passionate and fiery. There are few characteristics common to all blues music because the genre took its shape from the idiosyncrasies of individual performers. Blues has evolved from the unaccompanied vocal music and oral traditions of slaves from West Africa and rural blacks into a wide variety of styles and subgenres, with regional variations across the United States. The origins of the blues are closely related to the religious music of the African-American community, the spirituals, which go back to the middle of the 18th century. Before the blues gained its formal definition in terms of chord progressions, it was defined as the secular counterpart of spirituals. It was the music played by rural African-Americans. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 122 The blues recordings that came out of the Mississippi Delta from the late 1920s through the late 1930s have had an enormous impact on American music, influencing artists in numerous genres. It is powerful music that is also, by turns, stark, poetic, eerie, humorous, topical, and beautiful. All designs for this concept include the additional inscription "Delta blues." So first, we have design 1, which depicts an African-American man from Mississippi playing a steel guitar by using a slide shown on the man's left hand. The distinctive sound of a slide guitar is one of the true hallmarks of Mississippi Delta blues. Design 2 depicts a man playing the harmonica with a slide guitar in the background, two important components of Delta blues. Design 3 features an abstract view of an older man playing a resonator guitar. This guitar was adapted by blues musicians in the 1920s and is still used today, just as the culture and tradition pass to each new generation. The wave pattern in the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 123 lower right evokes the waters of the Mississippi River. Design 4 depicts a guitar head flanked by flourishes. The flourishes represent the beauty and growth that came out of Mississippi in the form of the Delta blues. The 20 stars represent Mississippi's designation as the 20th state. Designs 5, 6, 7, and 8 all feature iconic symbols of blues music, an acoustic guitar paired with a traditional fedora hat. Design 5, seen here, includes a harmonica below the guitar neck. So that's design 5, 6, 7, and 8. Moving on to the second concept for Mississippi, the first human lung transplant. On the evening of June 11, 1963, Dr. James Hardy and his collaborators, Watts Webb, Martin Dalton, Jr., and George Walker, Jr., at the University of Mississippi Medical Center performed the world's first human lung transplant. Chair and professor of surgery at the Mississippi Medical Center, Dr. Hardy spent several painstaking years researching and working through the details of organ transplantation to prepare for the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 124 first human-to-human lung procedure. The patient lived for almost three weeks after the transplant before succumbing to kidney disease, not the newly transplanted lung. The achievement, however, was undeniable. It was significant because it demonstrated that a transplanted lung could function normally and that the type of immunotherapy available at the time could prevent the body from rejecting the lung, at least for a short period. It encouraged the start of lung transplantation and began a new era of therapy to battle human lung disease. Each design for this concept includes the additional inscription "first human lung transplant." So here we have design 9. It depicts a straight-on view of a pair of human lungs. The trachea connects to both the simplified bronchi shown on the left (in the patient's right lung) and to the transplanted lung on the right side (the patient's left). The lungs are surrounded by a background texture reminiscent of cells. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 125 Design 10 features a straight-on view of a fully transplanted pair of human lungs, with simplified bronchi connected to a trachea. Two slightly different biologically-inspired textures, reminiscent of cells, surround the lungs and trachea and form a boundary line that separates them. The juxtaposition of the similar features and textures symbolizes the now whole functioning lungs formed from two different but compatible bodies. Design 11 depicts the Rod of Asclepius -- excuse me if I did not pronounce that correctly -- superimposed above a stylized rendering a pair of human lungs. Design 12 illustrates a surgeon's gloved hands carefully holding the patient's new left lung in preparation to attach it to the trachea. Design 13 features a pair of human lungs in the background, while a surgical assistant passes forceps to the surgeon during the first lung transplant surgery. Again, this is the design that is preferred by the Governor. And design 14 depicts a surgical www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 126 assistant passing forceps to the surgeon, again, during the first lung transplant surgery. Madam Chair, that concludes the candidate designs for Mississippi. MS. LANNIN: Well, thank you so very much. Again, if we could keep our discussions to five minutes or less, that would be great. And I'd like to begin with Dennis Tucker. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, it's hard for me not to look at this portfolio without considering the themes that we're recommending for the other three states for this year. And as much as I would love to consider each coin as a standalone, as its own independent coin, I think we have to acknowledge that most of these coins are going to be sold in sets. I know that the Mintages are not final and audited, but I've been looking at the Mintage numbers for 2018 and 2019 coins in this series, and they appear to be selling about 400, 500,000 coins, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 127 And then, only in the tens of thousands each in sets. of individual coins, which are sold by the Mint in rolls and bags. So most people who buy these coins and observe them are going to be buying them and observing them as part of a set. And for that reason, as significant as the first human lung transplant is, I feel like the Mississippi Delta blues is the stronger theme to go along with the other fairly AfricanAmerican-themed coins within the portfolios that we've seen today. So it would be the underground railroad, jazz, and the blues, and then automotive innovation. So I'm tending toward Delta blues Music as the theme, and within that theme, I like number 1, and I like number 3 because they both have a strong human element focusing on the musician. Of the two, I think that number 3 is perhaps my favorite because it's a bit more stylized. I like the use of white space and the typography. So 1 and 3 are going to get my strongest votes. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thanks, Dennis. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 128 Sam Gill. MR. GILL: Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, my thought on this is that the Delta blues is a better theme. I'm very, very respectful of the lung transplant, and I know why the state would be so proud of that effort. But I think that the Delta blues is just a really cool thing for Mississippi, and it's certainly how I think of Mississippi in terms of the music there. And I love number 3. design. It's just really well done. I love the It captures this older gentleman, and he's exactly the person that I would expect to see playing that music. So I'm going to have to put my vote there on number 3, and I like 1 as well. And if my colleagues decide to go with the lung transplant, then I'm happy to support the Governor's selection of number 13. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much, Sam. Robin. MS. SALMON: This is Robin Salmon. I, too, go with the Delta blues for a variety of reasons, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 129 all of which have been stated so far. other designs, though. I did like Number 2, I thought, was interesting in superimposing the human figure and the guitar. It does include the elements of the symbols of Delta blues with the harmonica, the guitar, the hat, and of course, the musician. But I also liked number 4 for its design. I thought this was a beautiful design, and really, it's probably the most artistic of all of the designs in this particular category. And I like number 5. It's got the elements, again, guitar, harmonica, hat, but the lettering is very compelling in "Mississippi Delta blues." The strong diagonal, horizontal line there in both the harmonica and the guitar draws my eye. And I like it. With the lung transplant, it is certainly an important theme, and if I had to choose a particular design there, I would go with number 11. It shows the lungs in a little bit more of a realistic way, but it also includes the symbol of doctors, and I liked the overall design of this one. Thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 130 Thank you so much, Robin. MS. LANNIN: Dr. Dean Kotlowski, please. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Thank you, Madam Chairperson. This is Dean Kotlowski speaking, and I find myself agreeing very much with almost everything that Robin said about the Delta blues. I really like number 2 the best for the reasons that Robin explained. I think it's very well integrated. very artistic. man. You get the fedora hat. You get the harmonica. It's You get the I love the way the guitar is just so present, and I like the lettering on this. So of the images that feature a person, this is my favorite, but 1 and 3 are very good as well. And then, with the Delta blues, like Robin, I liked number 5. I liked how horizontal this was, and the balance, and bringing in the hat and the harmonica. I just think that this worked very, very well in integrating all of those elements in a very formal way. Now, I'm not taking a side about Delta blues versus lung transplant. I'm just going to look www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 131 at the art. And I have to say, a lot of the images with the lung transplant I thought were very well done in terms of balance. I think with number 1, you know, putting what was going on here with one of the lungs, I think was terribly effective. You could go through all of these. But you know, with our chairperson's test, the coin that would have attracted my interest and that I would spend my last minute or so discussing is number 12. Number 12 is extremely graphic. almost gross. And to use a phrase from the 1980s, "this one grossed me out." was compelling. And I would say it's But I looked at it. It In some ways, it was like seeing a movie that is extraordinarily well done, but on a disturbing theme, and so you can't say you enjoyed it, or you liked it, but you appreciated its greatness. I think what the Governor did, and this is very understandable, is number 13 is in many ways a safer version of number 12, and it's got the hands there as well. So I'm not necessarily going to vote for number 12, but I wanted to comment on it for the artistry. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 132 Thank you very much, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thank you so much, Dean. Mike Moran, please. MR. MORAN: Thank you, Mary. Mike Moran here. I liked number 3. thought it was a powerful image. I Again, I liked the way it divided the coin up into uneven quadrants. I also liked the fact that it brought the Mississippi River in in a stylized way because the Mississippi River was the transportation that diffused this music across the United States. If I had been an artist assigned to do the lung transplant, I don't know what I would come up with because Dean did say it there. gross. He said that's -- I thought there is no way any of these are going to come out worth attracting my attention. number 11 did a good job of it. But It's realistic, and yet it's artistic, and it will get some of my votes. But I'm a Delta blues person on this one. MS. LANNIN: Okay. That's it. Thanks, Mike, Dr. Brown. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 133 DR. BROWN: Lawrence Brown here. I'm not a surgeon. Good afternoon, again. And I want to acknowledge that I am a physician. And for that reason, I often have conversations with my surgical colleagues. aspects. We often tease each other about various I can understand Dean's comment about that looking gross. By the way, I'm going to vote for item 3. However, I want to make a point that when we were talking before about innovations, if I have to look at innovations in medicine, I probably would not say that using technology or surgery would be my vote. But just in case we get a design coming down the road, I just want to share that because when we look at advances in medicine to have had a substantial impact on society, they tend to be behavioral health-type things as opposed to the magic pill or the surgical procedure. I do respect the state of Mississippi wanting to give, in fact, kudos to, in fact, the first human lung transplant. And I do, in fact, salute -- if I had to choose among those -- I probably would www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 134 choose either design 13 or 14 because I can understand most persons outside of surgery, outside of medicine, would have been grossed out by the number 12. So item number 3 would be the one that I would choose. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Dr. Brown. Donald Scarinci, I'm sure you have an opinion on this. Donald? MR. SCARINICI: everything. I have an opinion about But I think -- listen. I think the art, I mean, kudos to the artist for this whole packet, actually. So I just think number 2 is amazing. I mean, you know, it's just so cool the way -- you know -- the way the hat and the -- you know -- I love the way the, you know, the brim of the hat, you know, kind of, you know does the circle within a circle thing in the guitar. You know, and kind of the way the face is, you know, hunched down, and you know, it's just a really cool image. So you know, I find that compelling. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 135 And you know, what the artist did in 5 and 6 is also kind of neat with the, you know, putting the hat on the guitar. You know, I kind of like that even more than -- you know -- than 7 and 8. But you know, as far as, you know, lung coins go, you know, probably number 9 is, you know, the most clear as to what it is. You know, with 13 doing much too much with the -- you know -- with the scissors there. And too much going on in 13 and 14. So I think if we go with, you know, another music coin, you know, my feeling is 2. I can certainly understand the people that, you know, like some of the other designs. You know, if we go with a lung coin, we go with number 9, in my opinion. I'm probably going to give three to both. This way, we have a lung coin and a music coin, and you know, and listen, assuming Mississippi is being truthful, you know, that that is the home of the first human lung transplant, I guess, that's kind of a big deal. You know, I, you know, have not done my homework on this, so I really -- you know -- I think www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 136 what we've learned throughout all of these various series that we consider, the states kind of take credit for things that, you know, maybe they had something to do with. know. theirs. So I'm not really sure, you I just don't know. Right. They say it's You know, hopefully, it is. I'm going to give it a three, and I'm going to give number 2 a three. MS. LANNIN: All right, Donald. Dr. Peter van Alfen. DR. VAN ALFEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. In terms of the Delta blues, I also was rather attracted to number 3, but I have to say that number 4 is by far my favorite in that series. Kind of very attractive and very artistic, as Robin noted. In terms of the lung transplant, I have to say that Dean's comments made me chuckle in terms of number 12 because I, too, was not quite sure what to do with that. My favorite of the lung transplant designs, however, is number 11. most attractive of the group. I found that probably And so I'll just leave it at that in the interest of time. Thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 137 MS. LANNIN: Thank you. In the interest of time, we need to sort of catch up here a little bit. Arthur Bernstein, please. MR. BERNSTEIN: This is Art Bernstein. As a guy who looked away when he got his COVID vaccination, I, too, like Dr. Kotlowski, found number 12 to be too graphic. If we're going with a lung coin, number 9 got the point across. If we do decide to go with a lung coin, I'd like to reserve the right to raise a question of syntax with regard to the phrase "first human lung transplant," but I'll save that to see what is the final decision. If we're going with the Delta blues coin, I was attracted to design 03 because of the tie-in with the Mississippi River. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Okay. Tom Uram, please. MR. URAM: Thank you, Madam Chair. Tom Uram. I'm going to agree. If we go with the blues, I do like number 2 the best, and then number 3 as well. So I'm going to give points to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 138 both. To balance out the portfolio of four coins, I would like to see the medical coin. I don't know that it would happen, but I, too, like number 11 and 13. But I'm going to give more of my points to number 11 since it does have the medical symbol, as well as the lung. So I'm going to give points to both. And congratulations to the artist here. And thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: All righty, Tom. Thank you. And I just want to remind people that the Governor's choice for the lung one was number 12. I'm sorry. I have it as number 13. Jennifer, could you check me on that? MR. URAM: Number -- I have. MS. LANNIN: We're all starting to break up a little bit. Tom, you broke up. MS. STAFFORD: April. Madam Chair, this is I just wanted to confirm, the Mississippi www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 139 Governor's preference is for design 13. That is actually the design that I noted in our public meeting. I believe in our administrative meeting, I may have erroneously said number 12. So I just wanted to make sure members, if they wrote down from the admin meeting, that they had the corrected and accurate preference of the Governor's office. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Great. Thank you. So I will weigh in a little bit with my favorite way to determine coins. If I picked up something, I would pick up number 3 for the Delta blues. I love the way that the design is sort of curved into pieces. I love the almost wood-like grain of the Mississippi River. in profile. I love the fact that he's You're just assuming that maybe he's sitting with his legs crossed, and the guitar is in his legs, and he's trying to decide maybe what to play next. I love this design. I just think it's awesome. That's not to discount any of the other artist work, but wow. This just really got me, and I've never gotten off of it. I like number 1 because I like the intersection of "Delta" and "blues" in the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 140 street sign. I thought that that was really very clever. And in terms of the lung, if we went that way, I prefer number 9 because I think it's a little cleaner and a little more simple. But I'm giving all of my first-place votes to number 3. Dennis brought up a really good point when we started talking about this, that most of these are sold as sets. And so you know, picture this. You open it up, and it's in a little plastic thing from the Mint, and you're looking at kind of music that you like -- jazz that you like. I'm not so sure I want to look at a human lung under any circumstances. But that's just me, and I am the daughter of a surgeon. But at any rate, does anybody have any additional comments? You know, from the Mint or? different comments from our committee? DR. BROWN: Madam Chair, this is Dr. Brown. MS. LANNIN: DR. BROWN: Yes, Lawrence? I'm looking for the next opportunity when we'll have something of a medical www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Any Meeting May 18, 2021 141 I can't wait until it comes before type of theme. this committee. MS. LANNIN: All right. Thank you so much. I think that we should probably score these. It's 3:57. We're scheduled to end 4:30, but we've got a bit more work to do. So if we could take about less than 10 minutes or so to get the scores to Greg, that would be great. MR. WEINMAN: Thank you. Send them my way. I've already got Lawrence's and Mike Moran's. Okay, Mary. I'm ready. MS. LANNIN: All right, Greg. MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: Ready? Take it away. Okay. Design number 1 has 6 points, design number 2 has 18, design number 3 is the top vote-getter with 22 points, design number 4 has 7, design number 5 has 7, design number 6 has 2, design number 7 has 4, design number 8 has 2, design number 9 got 10, design number 10 got 5, design number 11 got 11, design number 12 got 5, design number 13 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 142 got 16 points, design number 14 got 7 points. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Greg. MR. WEINMAN: So once again, the top vote-getter is number 3 with 22 points. MS. LANNIN: Great. Thank you so much. So is there any further discussion on this? MR. TUCKER: Madam Chair, this is MS. LANNIN: Okay. MR. TUCKER: I have a motion I'd like Dennis. to make, not relating specifically to Mississippi. this a good time to make it? portfolios. Is It's about the four I would like to move that we encourage Secretary Yellen to consider our recommendations as a set or as a whole. I think it's important that we emphasize that if she simply reviews our recommendations individually, then we might end up with a proof set and a Mint set that has the underground railroad, the Higgins Boat, lung transplant, and automotive innovation, rather than the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 143 more coherent set that we've developed, which is underground railroad, jazz, blues, and automotive innovation. MS. LANNIN: Greg. MR. WEINMAN: motion. Is that -- It's a certainly a proper Yeah. MS. LANNIN: All right. Does anybody second? DR. BROWN: Dr. Brown seconds. MS. LANNIN: DR. BROWN: Who said that? Lawrence Brown seconds. MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: Okay. Any discussion? Okay. Is there any discussion on that? MR. TUCKER: Mary, it's Dennis again. If I could just explain a little bit more my reasoning for this. I understand that some of the governors had very strong recommendations for their own preferences. And I don't know if those recommendations taken out of context, out of the context that we've given the set as a whole, might have too much bearing and disrupt www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 144 what I see as being a very coherent combination that we've developed here. So that's why I think it's important that the Secretary consider what we're recommending as a coherent set or whole, a set of coins, rather than just looking at each one individually. MS. LANNIN: vote. Okay. Let's take a voice All in favor of Dennis' motion, say, "Aye." (A chorus of ayes.) MS. LANNIN: Two. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: MS. LANNIN: Aye. Three. (A chorus of ayes.) MS. LANNIN: who sort of keep appearing. I could be -- count people I counted five "ayes" so far of eleven. So then, five "ayes?" MS. WARREN: Mary, this is Jennifer. You might want to just take a quick roll call, and -MS. LANNIN: Okay. Let's do a roll call. Dean. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 145 DR. KOTLOWSKI: MS. LANNIN: No. Mike Moran. MR. MORAN: Yes. MS. LANNIN: Peter van Alfen. DR. VAN ALFEN: MS. LANNIN: Yes. Tom Uram. Tom? Robin Salmon. MS. SALMON: Yes. MS. LANNIN: Sam Gill. MR. GILL: I'd have to say no. MS. LANNIN: Dennis Tucker. MR. TUCKER: Yes. MS. LANNIN: Lawrence Brown. DR. BROWN: Yes. MS. LANNIN: Donald Scarinci. MR. SCARINCI: The only reason I'm saying no, is because I really don't want to tell the Secretary of the Treasury what to do. MS. LANNIN: Arthur Bernstein. MR. BERNSTEIN: MS. LANNIN: Yes. Tom Uram. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 146 Is he back? MR. URAM: I'm back. I don't know what happened. Dennis made a motion -- MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: I did not hear the results or anything. MS. LANNIN: Oh. Dennis made a motion that the recommended designs be presented to Secretary Yellen as a complete package so that the governors' choices, if they were other than ours, don't wind up in the same set that is sold. by Lawrence Brown. And that was seconded We have six yeses. one, two, three, four noes. And we have And so we're leaning on you. MR. URAM: since I missed them all? happened. Can you give me the results Sorry. I don't know what I just looked -MS. LANNIN: Sorry. Number 3 got 22 points, and that is the favorite design. MR. URAM: Right. And so what's the motion? MS. LANNIN: The motion -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 147 MR. WEINMAN: The motion is actually not related specifically to Mississippi. MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: Yeah. Dennis, do you want to just quickly just rephrase your motion? MR. TUCKER: Yes. Tom, I made a motion that we encourage the Secretary to consider our recommendations as a set or a whole, rather than emphasizing the individuality of each recommendation if that makes sense. And my reasoning was that some of the governors' recommendations were voiced very strongly, but if we go with the governors' recommendations, we'll end up with a very mismatched set of coins. It would be the underground railroad, the Higgins Boat, the lung transplant, and automotive innovation. If we go with our recommendations, it will be a much more coherent set of four coins, which would be the underground railroad, jazz, blues, and the automotive innovation. More African-American themed almost, relating to the history of -MR. URAM: Well, I guess I'm a little www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 148 confused. Our recommendation is what we recommend. So therefore, I don't think the Secretary needs any more definitive than what we're -- are we trying to be redundant? I don't understand the motion, really. MR. TUCKER: redundant. No. Not trying to be But presenting our recommendations in a way that we typically don't. I understand that we don't normally make our recommendations this way, but acknowledging the fact that these coins are purchased by most people in proof sets or mint sets rather than individually, I think we have to look at the four-coin set as just that. A set of coins that people will be looking at, you know, as a whole, rather than as individual coins. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Okay. I -- I think I'm looking at it more or less as an individual state, and we've made the decision. So I'm going to have to vote no on that. MS. LANNIN: I'm also voting no because I agree with Tom and Donald Scarinci that it's not my business to tell Dr. Yellen what to do with -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 149 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: There you have it. MS. LANNIN: -- we've already voted, and we know what our choices were. vote no. So I'm going to So one, two, three, four -MS. WARREN: Madam Chair, it's six yeses, five noes from my count. MS. LANNIN: This is Jennifer. That's the count that I get as well. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You're chair. Hey, Mary. You go for it. MS. LANNIN: I already -- MR. TUCKER: Mary, this is Dennis. role is advisory. Our I mean, everything we do is advising the Secretary. I don't see this as telling her what to do. MS. LANNIN: micromanaging. Well, I think it's And I think that if I was the governor of one state, and I got what I wanted, and a governor of another state didn't get what they chose, I think it just creates bad feelings among the states that are part of that set. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 150 Well, that could happen MR. TUCKER: either way, you know. MR. URAM: me. Plus, ultimately -- excuse Ultimately, though, it is up to the Secretary to make the final decision, and I think she's very well aware of the Mints stand in how we want to market and do what has to be done. So she has the best interest of the Mint, hopefully, as the other Secretaries have had as well. MR. SCARINCI: And Dennis, there's nothing special about these four states. They just happen to be, you know, the four states together. There's no cohesive unity. So when we do want coins grouped together for some, you know, for some good reason, you know, I don't want to have, you know, done this before. You know, there's just nothing in common that these states have other than they're going to be issued in the same year. Right. MR. TUCKER: And I agree with that. So -- Donald, this is Dennis. I don't think that this needs to be something that sets precedent, and I don't think it's something that will actually happen very often. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 151 I do see this as an interesting development with this particular set of four coins for this particular set of four states. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Nonetheless -When we review these, we've said even today, I even mentioned it, you know, how the set is going to look and thought that the medical would be a good balance, but I mean, it doesn't mean that it has to be that way. So I mean, I think we're all pretty much attuned to the fact of how the set would develop as we go through the process for each one of the states as we've done so far. So far, it's worked out pretty well. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Kotlowski. Mary, this is Dean I mean, Madam Chairperson. I feel like we're having the debate after we had the vote, which is -MS. LANNIN: Exactly. DR. KOTLOWSKI: -- more than a little awkward because I find myself completely agreeing with Tom and Don and you. I worry everything you do sort of sets a precedent potentially. And we haven't www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 152 really done this before. I think our choices are clear, and they -- you know -- they stand for themselves. And I don't know if you can make a case here that they're coherent. I mean, three of them seem to deal, obviously, with African-American themes, but the automotive industry really doesn't. And then, I wonder if you get something later on where a Secretary would say, "Well, maybe what we have to have is, looking at the four sets, we got to have things balanced. medical coin. And maybe we need a Or it can't be in a -- you know -- it's too tilted in this direction one way or the other." MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: carried. Exactly. Yeah. The motion Somebody could move to reconsider, but otherwise, you should move on. DR. VAN ALFEN: I move to reconsider. That was Peter van Alfen. MS. LANNIN: Peter, what did you say? You're changing your vote from yes to no? DR. VAN ALFEN: Well, I say I move to reconsider, to re-vote. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 153 DR. KOTLOWSKI: MS. LANNIN: I second. All right. Okay. So on this motion -MR. URAM: Sorry, Mary, that I came in late and did all that. MS. LANNIN: Yeah. Okay. So this is the reconsideration that Peter wants to do and Dean seconds. Dean, what is your vote? DR. KOTLOWSKI: On reconsideration, yes. MS. LANNIN: No. DR. KOTLOWSKI: No. Oh. No. On this, on Dennis' -- motion. MS. LANNIN: Correct. I think you need to make a motion clearly, so that when I do the minutes, it will be, "We moved to combine them as a set." Or, "We moved to leave them with our original recommendations." DR. KOTLOWSKI: Right. I will defer to Peter, but my inclination is to leave them as four different -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 154 MR. TUCKER: -- I think you're putting words in my mouth now. please. MS. LANNIN: Say again, Dean. MR. TUCKER: This is Mr. Tucker. MS. LANNIN: Dennis, wait a minute, Dean was trying to say something, and as a result, I couldn't hear either of you. Dean, finish your sentence, please. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Okay. I don't know whether we're voting on just to reconsider and re-vote on the motion that requires a separate vote or not. My intention is to vote against Dennis' motion and just to let every coin stand in terms of the four individual coins. So I could make a separate motion on that, or Peter can since he was sort of first out of the gun here. to stand. It's just to simply allow our votes That would be my clear motion. MS. LANNIN: Peter? DR. VAN ALFEN: Dean, I'm confused. Sorry. I was muted. Your motion is to let the vote stand as it was or to re-vote? DR. KOTLOWSKI: To not group them www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 155 together and to allow the individual votes on each of these coin designs stand as we have voted them. DR. VAN ALFEN: So that is your motion? DR. KOTLOWSKI: Yes. DR. VAN ALFEN: I second that motion. MS. LANNIN: So in this case, then, Dennis, you would vote yes for your own motion? MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: clarify. Yeah. Mary. Yeah? Just saying this just to Dennis had a motion on the table to group them together. MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: Right. That passed. Right. Now, Dean has made a new motion to not group them together. And so now, the motion on the table at the moment, seconded by Peter, is to not group them together but go the way that you had it originally. That's what you're voting on right now. MS. LANNIN: All right. Thank you very www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 156 much for saying that and for straightening it out. Dean Kotlowski, what is the vote on your motion? MR. WEINMAN: You're muted. DR. KOTLOWSKI: MS. LANNIN: Yes. You're voting for your own motion, yes. Michael Moran. MR. MORAN: Yes. MS. LANNIN: Peter van Alfen. DR. VAN ALFEN: MS. LANNIN: Yes. Tom Uram. Tom Uram. Somebody has to -MR. URAM: Sorry. MS. LANNIN: Yes. Yes, Mary. Okay. Dr. Brown, put your mute on, please. Robin Salmon. MS. SALMON: Yes. MS. LANNIN: Sam Gill. MR. GILL: MS. LANNIN: Yes. Dennis Tucker. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 157 I'm going to abstain MR. TUCKER: because I think my first motion was mischaracterized in the explanation of this motion. MS. LANNIN: DR. BROWN: Dr. Brown. I vote no. MS. LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: here? Donald Scarinci. What are we voting on I don't even know. MS. LANNIN: We are voting on a motion made by Dean, seconded by Dr. van Alfen to not group the coins for Secretary Yellen. MR. SCARINCI: what we voted for last time. MR. WEINMAN: So we're voting to do Okay. No. Donald -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No. The opposite. MR. WEINMAN: motion. To clarify, Dennis made a His motion carried to group them. Then, after that motion passed, Dean filed a contrary motion to do exactly the opposite. That got a second, and that is what's passing right now. MR. SCARINCI: Oh. I'm sorry. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I Meeting May 18, 2021 158 thought Dennis' motion failed. Yeah. I support Dean's motion. MS. LANNIN: Okay. MR. BERNSTEIN: MS. LANNIN: Okay. Art Bernstein. Yes. Mary Lannin. Yes. Then we have one no, one abstention, and nine yeses. MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: Dean's motion passes. Okay. Dean's motion has overcome Dennis' motion. MS. LANNIN: Right. Okay. So we've got quite a bit of work to do in less nine minutes. Okay. So the next thing that is coming up -- thank you all for going through that. We're going to discuss potential recommendations on future commemorative coin program themes. Per the CCAC Operating Procedures and Section 5135 of Title 31, United States code, the CCAC is responsible for advising the Secretary of the Treasury, quote "with regard to the events, persons, or places that the Advisory Committee recommends be www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 159 commemorated by the issuance of commemorative coins each of the five calendar years succeeding the year in which a commemorative coin designated is made." A small working group of CCAC members that include Tom Uram, Robin Salmon, Dr. Lawrence Brown, Donald Scarinci, and myself have been continually meeting to discuss ideas to present to the group. As we did in the January public meeting, the working group has a few recommendations to move forward for consideration by the full committee on possible recommendations to the secretary and to share with Congress. Information was sent to each of the members on the ideas to be considered prior to today. We will take up each idea separately and allow for members to share their thoughts on a specific idea if they have any. Then, we will vote on whether to formally recommend the idea. I ask that you keep your comments to the idea being presented and stay within five minutes if you wish to comment on any of the ideas. To present each of the ideas, I'm asking Tom Uram, who has been kind enough to lead the working group, to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 160 present each of them. Tom. Tom? MR. URAM: -- my thoughts. This is a -MS. LANNIN: Oh, dear. Tom, are you on? Now, you've got that kind of -- there you go. You still look frozen, though. Okay. Tom, you're muted. MR. URAM: Okay. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: How about now? Fine. Okay. Good. Thank you, Madam Chair. Tom Uram here to give the working group report to the full Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee. members. And I want to thank all of our committee I just want to mention that over the last several months, the CCAC working group has met to discuss the potential themes for the commemorative coin program. Currently, there's only authorized www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 161 programs through 2022, and a very limited number of potential programs introduced to Congress for the outlying years. As part of the CCAC's role in US coinage, the CCAC working group has focused discussion on potential programs for the outlying years and to add to the already recommended programs that we recommended on the semicentennial program and the 2028 summer Olympics. The working group, which consisted of myself, Robin Salmon, Donald Scarinci, Mary Lannin, and Dr. Lawrence Brown, met on May 10th and voted unanimously to move forward with the following six themes, and this is out of a larger, as well of what you have. After each theme, some of the information provided that came up during the discussion -- and mainly for background information -the CCAC does not have to specifically designated a year. Unless we should feel that it would be appropriate, we don't have to. Or a recipient organization doesn't have to be declared. However, it is informative for the CCAC members to consider since www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 162 a main purpose of the commemorative coin program is to provide surcharges that reciprocate organizations for their specific mission. The first proposal -MS. LANNIN: Oops. Tom, you're off again. MR. URAM: MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Really? Yeah. Back on? You're back on. How's that? Yep. That's strange how it's coming in and out. Anyhow, Madam Chairman, first one has to do with climate change and recognize wildlife impacted seriously by climate change. There are a number of notes, and I'm not going to go over them entirely, but each one, there are some several dates and themes that could be used, and the potential recipient organizations include environmental or wildlife conservation groups. So I throw this one out to -- you had a chance to read everything as it relates to this www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 163 proposal number one, and any comments -- and all we're doing here right now is going to have the ability to move these forward into the record. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Okay. Thank you. Are there any questions regarding -MS. LANNIN: Thanks, Tom. Rather than go in a specific order, if someone would like to speak to this first proposal, I open the floor to that. MR. URAM: take the vote? If not, would you like to These have all been unanimously approved by five, so -MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: MS. LANNIN: Passed. Passed. Okay. Correct. So if no one wants to add any additional discussion, should we add the environmental and climate change and animals that would be considered impacted by that to our first topic? All in favor, voice vote, say, "Aye." (A chorus of ayes.) MS. LANNIN: Any nays? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 164 I think that we can say that passed unanimously. Greg, is that what you heard? Okay. Tom -- MR. WEINMAN: muted. Yes. Yeah. Sorry. I was That is what I heard. MS. LANNIN: Okay. So Tom, why don't you do proposal number two, please. MR. URAM: Yes. And thank you, Mary. For the suggestion on proposal number two, Robin Salmon made in regards to a commemorative coin program related to stock car or car racing, NASCAR, or automobiles in general. As a committee as a whole, I think what you'll find in these themes, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, you'll find that we're really giving the artist a whole new pallet as it relates to different themes. That was part of our goal over the last three meetings that we've had in the working group. And so here's another one that relates to something a little bit different. Its interest is to appeal to a large segment of the population. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Of Meeting May 18, 2021 165 course, we just talked about automobiles with Indiana just recently, and you even have more women involved in automobile racing and so forth. So there are some possibilities of relevant upcoming dates, as well as potential recipient organizations. The working group unanimously approved this discussion. So I'd like to throw it on the floor for approval for proposal number two to move forward. DR. VAN ALFEN: Alfen. This is Peter van I just have one question. The title of this proposal is "program related to stock car racing, NASCAR, or automobiles in general," and that seems really quite broad. own thing. I mean, NASCAR seems to be its Automobile racing in general, if that includes, you know, Indy 500 type racing, as well as sprint racing, and you know, NASCAR, and so forth. Or automobiles in general, which is a hugely broad topic. I wonder if we should consider a narrower topic for this? Just say, NASCAR alone, or leave it as is rather broad? MR. URAM: MS. LANNIN: That's a good point. Peter -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 166 Sorry, Tom. I just wanted to sneak in and say, I think that the Mint doesn't want to look like they're doing advertising for NASCAR, so if we leave it really broad, you get the history of automobiles. You know, you could get like the first racecars, et cetera, and so forth. be easier as a topic in general. I think it might Do you know what I mean? DR. VAN ALFEN: MS. LANNIN: Yeah. Sure. But I understand your concern. DR. VAN ALFEN: it. No. I fully support I just think, as titled at the moment, it's rather broad. And if we leave it broad, you know, we can obviously capture, you know, quite a bit there, so. MS. LANNIN: Okay. MS. WARREN: Peter, this is Jennifer. Just on that note with NASCAR, we originally were thinking that because of its anniversary coming up, but there could be trademark issues, even though they do have -- foundation, that could be the one. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 So we Meeting May 18, 2021 167 kind of left it broader, and it could be sort of the decision of Congress. And if they actually worked with them, and it said, "Okay. NASCAR is fine with that, and they want to be part of it." That kind of was where it was, so we made it more broad, so we could move forward and then let that be hashed out later. DR. VAN ALFEN: Sounds great. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Okay. So let's take a MR. TUCKER: This is Dennis. voice vote -I had a question for Greg -MR. URAM: That's a good point. Thank you. MR. WEINMAN: Yeah. Go ahead. I think I know what you're going to ask but go ahead. MR. TUCKER: about NASCAR. company. Well, I was just curious I think it was started as a private I don't know if it still is a private company or what its status is, but would there be any legal complications there? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 168 MR. WEINMAN: Yeah. Well, more importantly, it goes to the charter of the CCAC. Basically, it's an event, person, or place. We have advised in the past that a simple organization is not sufficient within your charter. It could theoretically be the hundredth anniversary of NASCAR if that was something that tied into the American experience. But it has to be either an event, a person, or a place. Something broader, as Mary was saying. MR. URAM: MR. TUCKER: And don't forget -Greg. This is Dennis. For that reason, I would vote against this one. It seems too vague. MS. LANNIN: All right. So we're going to -MR. URAM: -- able to present this and move it to legislators for them to decide the ultimate themes or particular commemoratives. So once again, the whole purpose is just to have as much -- for instance, stock car racing might be totally different. That's why we left it as broad as we did. We took the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 169 considerations, Dennis, that you brought up, as well as that Peter brought up. And that's why we went this way because of just what you guys have been saying. So even with that, we decided that we would move it forward, and so it's now up to the general group as a whole to decide if you wanted to go forward. So Mary, you can take the vote. MS. LANNIN: Okay. So all in favor of the second proposal, which is a commemorative coin program relating to racecars, possibly including NASCAR racing and/or automobiles in general, say, "Aye." (A chorus of ayes.) MS. LANNIN: Opposed? MR. TUCKER: Nay. MS. LANNIN: Okay. All right. MR. URAM: Nine to one. Tom, your third one. Okay. The third one, it has to do with the different historical American horse racing. And there are several to be recognized, including the Kentucky Derby 150th anniversary, as well as the Preakness, and tying it in with the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 170 Belmont as well in some consideration. We felt from a legislative point of view that this would move forward, as it relates to three different states being involved. And we also felt that even though other countries have done some different things as related to horses, there are many potential recipient organizations that could benefit, very numerous equine non-profits, jockey foundations, et cetera. So we felt very strong about this one that it had extremely broad appeal, and once again, I think the artist would have a really good time, and we'd have a great portfolio to look at as it relates to this one as well. Mary. MS. LANNIN: Okay. All in favor of the horse and American horse racing commemorative program, a voice vote, please. Aye. (A chorus of ayes.) MS. LANNIN: Opposed? Unanimous? Thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 171 All right. MR. URAM: Tom, the next one, please. Thank you, Mary. Proposal number four relates to a similar situation as it relates to animals. And you know, we tried to get animals on coins in different things, and we had to switch gears there, so we thought of picking it with the Westminster and American Kennel Clubs, the AKC, in relation to the broad appeal internationally as well, with crops in the other different organizations. There are some similar countries that have done some things dog-related as well, but we have not. Numerous benefactors, again, including research and nutrition for the rescues, in particular. Clubs and societies for individual breeds are huge, and it would have a broad appeal. We also felt that there would be plenty of legislative support as it relates to that as a topic. So thank you, Mary. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thanks. I'd add maybe a recipient organization could be Canine Companions for Independents, which is, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 172 I think, a very cool thing. All right. So voice vote. Aye. MR. BERNSTEIN: Mary. Mary. This is Art. MS. LANNIN: Art? MR. BERNSTEIN: Thank you. It is Art Bernstein. I just wanted to point out; it's Westminster, not "Westminister." MS. LANNIN: Right. Thank you very Very good. Good catch. much. MR. URAM: MS. LANNIN: Okay. So the fourth proposal for the commemorative coin relating to dogs, all in favor, say, "Aye." (A chorus of ayes.) MS. LANNIN: Opposed? Everybody likes dogs. All right, Tom. MR. URAM: Unanimous. Next one, please. Proposal number five has to do with architecture, and a theme of architecture is that it relates to different environmental and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 173 considerations of city planning, landscape architecture, and environment. One of the things that we brought up was Frank Lloyd Wright, among other things. And as you can see, down the list there, there's numerous other architectural and environmental inclusions, and it can also be kind of tied a little bit to Mary's proposal of number one with the environment. So once again, this was something that really has some new appeal for artists and designs and that we haven't done or seen, and so we'd recommend the passage of proposal number five. MS. LANNIN: All in favor of proposal number five? MR. BERNSTEIN: MS. LANNIN: Madam Chair. Oh. I'm sorry. Art. Okay. MR. BERNSTEIN: on this subject. I'll be quick. MS. LANNIN: Sure. MR. BERNSTEIN: to record. I have three comments Just wanted to add them One is, Daniel Burnham is mentioned, and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 174 reference is made to Chicago and Washington D.C. He had a great presence in Cleveland, Ohio and in San Francisco, and I think that should be noted. MS. LANNIN: Okay. MR. BERNSTEIN: Number two, I wanted to put in as a suggestion, another great American architect, Julia Morgan -MS. LANNIN: You bet. MR. BERNSTEIN: -- who has done several hundred buildings, mainly on the west coast. And my third comment is Thomas Jefferson, the designer of the University of Virginia, the Academical Village, which is a UNESCO World Heritage site, and I think, worthy of consideration. MS. LANNIN: Awesome, Art. Thank you so much. MR. BERNSTEIN: MS. LANNIN: Thank you. So all in favor of the fifth proposal, which the coins are related to American architecture et cetera, all in favor say, "Aye." (A chorus of ayes.) www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 175 MS. LANNIN: Oh, come on. Sound excited, you guys. Anybody opposed? MR. URAM: MS. LANNIN: great suggestions by art. Arthur, thank you -Okay. Okay. It's unanimous with So the last proposal, Tom. MR. URAM: -- and thank you. And you could have a huge on just -- architecture alone -going forward. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Exactly. It might be relevant -- Number -MS. LANNIN: Breaking up, Tom. Okay. MR. URAM: Okay. Different poetry and so forth, and put their list of possible poets that have been there and listed, and I think that you could find some really good libraries in different institutions as -- and, I think also, it would play well for state legislators to, once again, like, a reading fundamental type, bringing it back, and play www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 176 the essence of poetry and the importance of that history. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thanks, Tom. And I just wanted to say, this is my idea, but I was just thinking of, considering the year that we've all gone through, things that brighten and lift our minds. And so one of those things is poetry, so that's why I wanted to include it. So does anybody want to talk about that, or should we just vote? MR. GILL: MS. LANNIN: MR. GILL: Madam Chair, this is Sam. Okay, Sam. Just a really quick comment. The list of poets you had -- I love the concept, by the way. MS. LANNIN: MR. GILL: Thank you. The list of poets you have there are great, but you also might want to look at some of the 19th-century poets as well, like Walt Whitman, and Edgar Allen Poe, and Emily Dickinson, and Longfellow, and some of the others, and -MS. LANNIN: Exactly. Exactly. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 It's a Meeting May 18, 2021 177 wide-open topic. MR. GILL: MS. LANNIN: Thank you. So all in favor of our last -Somebody else? Art, did you have something to say? MR. BERNSTEIN: MS. LANNIN: No. Robin? You lit up. Do you have anything to say? MS. SALMON: No. I just unmuted MS. LANNIN: Okay. myself. All right. All in favor of proposal number six, which is to recognize American poetry? Aye. (A chorus of ayes.) MS. LANNIN: All right. Any nays? Unanimous. So -MR. URAM: Mary, I just want to say thank you to the entire group. And particularly, thank you to Jennifer, who has helped compile and give us some www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 178 thoughts and different things. We're going to continue to meet, and we'll advise everyone when our next meeting is going to be. I know that Dr. Peter van Alfen, you've mentioned about some ideas, so we're open. And once again, thank you to the Mint staff and particularly Jennifer, and our group. And there's other ideas and historical events that are listed in the information that you've received. So thank you, all. MS. LANNIN: much. Okay. Thank you very This concludes our business for today. you all for attending. Thank Our next meeting is scheduled to be June 15th and 16th, 2021, which will be held, again, virtually. So if there's no further business to come before the committee, I will entertain a motion to adjourn. DR. VAN ALFEN: So moved. Peter van Alfen. MS. LANNIN: MR. GILL: MR. SALMON: Okay. Second? Sam. Robin Salmon. Second. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 179 MS. LANNIN: Well, Sam and Robin, I'm going to give you both the honors of seconding. All in favor of adjourning, say, "Aye." (A chorus of ayes.) MS. LANNIN: Opposed? Nay? It's 4:41, and we are adjourned. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. And thank you to everyone at the Mint who has helped make this possible. (Whereupon, the meeting concluded at 4:41 p.m.) www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 180 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, TERRELL LEE, the officer before whom the foregoing proceedings were taken, do hereby certify that any witness(es) in the foregoing proceedings, prior to testifying, were duly sworn; that the proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting by a qualified transcriptionist; that said digital audio recording of said proceedings are a true and accurate record to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. TERRELL LEE Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting May 18, 2021 181 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER I, KENDAL TAYLOR, do hereby certify that this transcript was prepared from the digital audio recording of the foregoing proceeding, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. KENDAL TAYLOR www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee (CCAC) Public Meeting Moderated by Mary Lannin, Chair Tuesday, May 18, 2021 1:00 - 4:41 p.m. Videoconference Meeting Washington, D.C. 20220 Corrections to the Transcript: Pg. 35 (line 4): Pg. 111 (line 19): Pg. 134 (line 12): Pg. 150 (line 6): Pg. 154 (line 4): (“numismatically” replaces “pneumatically”) (“draftsmanship” replaces “craftsmanship”) (“artists” replaces “artist”) (“Mint’s” replaces “Mints”) (“Dennis Tucker" replaces “Mr. Tucker”)