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Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 1 UNITED STATES MINT CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE PUBLIC MEETING THURSDAY, MARCH 5, 2015 Oregon Convention Center 777 NE Martin Luther King Jr. Blvd Portland, Oregon Reported by: Richard Friant, Capital Reporting Company (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 2 A P P E A R A N C E S COMMMITTE MEMBERS PRESENT: MARKS, Gary JANSEN, Erik HOGE, Robert MORAN, Michael URAM, Thomas J. LANNIN, Mary WASTWEET, Heidi VIOLA, Herman STEVENS-SOLLMAN, Jeanne SCARINCI, Donald STAFF: STAFFORD, April BIRDSONG, Betty EVERHART, Don SULLIVAN, Megan WEINMAN, Greg (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 3 P R O C E E D I N G S (9:35 a.m.) WELCOME AND CALL TO ORDER CHAIRMAN MARKS: Let's call this meeting of March 5, 2015, of the Citizen Coinage Advisory Committee to order. I want to thank everyone for your attendance here today. I want to personally welcome you to my hometown. I was born and raised in this very location, and it's kind of a strange collision of my worlds, if you will, to have all of you here in my hometown, but I hope you enjoy your time here. I did order up special weather for you in the sunshine, which is usually not here in March, so please enjoy it. It was a lot of effort to get that to happen. DISCUSSION OF LETTER & MINUTES FROM PREVIOUS MEETING CHAIRMAN MARKS: So with that, we need to look at our minutes and letters for the January 27th and 28th meetings in Washington, D.C. Are there any comments, changes, or deletions for any of those documents? (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 4 Hearing none, I'll ask that there be a motion to approve. MR. HOGE: I so move. MS. LANNIN: Second. CHAIRMAN MARKS: seconded. It's been moved and All those in favor please say aye. (Chorus of ayes.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: Motion approved. Just a note for the ease of the progression of our meeting, I want to ask again that members speak into the microphones, and to speak clearly and loudly. We all want to hear what everyone has to say, and have everyone contribute to their fullest potential today, so please make sure you're heard. If you forget to pull the microphone up, I might ask you to do that. I think it's very important that we're all heard here today. Before we move on to the agenda, I just wanted to first ask for any journalists who are on the phone, if you'd please identify yourself. MR. GILKES: World. Paul Gilkes with Coin I'm covering the morning session, start (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 5 coming and flying in. MR. UNSER: Mike Unser with Coin News. MR. WALKER: Peter Walker with Coin Week. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. meeting. Anyone else? I want to welcome you to our And we do have some program liaisons through the day who will be on the phone. April, I don't believe we have anyone on the phone at this point, do we? MS. STAFFORD: no. We should not currently, We have our liaison for the Rosebud Sioux Tribe with us. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. Okay. And we'll recognize each of those individuals as we address the various items on the agenda today. So I believe -- I believe I've covered all of the prepatory elements for the meeting. And with that, I'll move on to the review and discussion of candidate designs for the Rosebud Code Talkers Recognition Congressional Gold Medals. April, can you report, please? (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 6 REVIEW AND DISCUSS CANDIDATE DESIGNS FOR THE ROSEBUD CODE TALKERS RECOGNITION CONGRESSIONAL MEDALS MS. STAFFORD: Yes. Public Law 110-420 authorizes the Secretary of the Treasury to strike Congressional Medals to recognize the dedication and valor of Native American Code Talkers to the United States Armed Services during World War I and World War II. Unique gold medals will be struck for each Native American tribe that had a member who served as a code talker. Silver duplicate medals will be presented to the specific code talkers, or their next of kin. Bronze duplicates will be struck and made available for sale to the public. no required inscriptions. There are However, for design consistency, the obverse designs include the tribe's name, code talkers, and if desired a language unique to the tribe. Reverse inscriptions include World War I and/or World War II, as applicable to the war served, an Act of Congress 2008. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 7 We will review two obverse and two reverse designs for the Rosebud Sioux Tribe of Rosebud, South Dakota. this program. This is the 29th design in We're fortunate to have with us today our liaison from the tribe, Mark Whitt. Mr. Whitt, would you like to say a few words to our committee? MR. WHITT: gentlemen. Good morning, ladies and I'm happy to be here to be able to take part in this process for the Coins for the Code Talkers. I don't have really much other to say than I am enthused at this process I'm going through. Since I've been involved it's been working very smoothly. Other than that, I'm open to any questions you may have. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Are there any questions? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes. Mr. Whitt, you had told me that you had been involved with the vets, and could you explain to the committee how we came to see these designs, and their input (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 8 in what was going on? MR. WHITT: I work for one of the two tribes there in the various programs. Part of our program -- one of our elements in our program is that we have let me say steering committee comprised of combat veterans, some of our delegates from our tribal council, and they give us directives as far as decisions that need to be made, and one of the things that they did have a decision on was the coins for the -- for these medals. We proposed all designs to them, and they were interested in two, one for the obverse, and one for the reverse, and the ones they chose on were based on familiarity of things such as facial features. I know on one of the designs they favored one over the other for that particular reason, because they looked more familiar to us. The other picture that was proposed they felt was more characteristic of someone from another tribe, so we picked it solely on the basis (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 9 of facial features. The reverse design we chose for it being more accurate as far as our tribal flag. Some of the diamond pattern, or the roundness pattern-type in the center had only two triangles, as opposed to three, which is characteristic of our tribal flag, our diamond pattern. And then we also were real insistent on having the border pattern around the coin itself. A lot of the other things that we have produced to represent the Rosebud Sioux Tribe, most commonly the red border, is something that's consistent throughout everything we produce, so... MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you. Bob? MR. HOGE: Can you tell us which of the designs then you've selected, one or two in each case? MR. WHITT: For the obverse, we selected 01, and for the reverse we -- R01. MR. HOGE: Thank you. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 10 CHAIRMAN MARKS: questions? Are there any other April, did you have -MS. STAFFORD: Can we look at the designs? CHAIRMAN MARKS: MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Okay. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Thank you, sir. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. MS. STAFFORD: We'll start with the obverse designs. Obverses 1 and 2 depict a World War II Code Talker, and Sicangu Lakota Warrior in profile. The code talker wears his dog tags, while the Lakota Warrior wears a feather in his hair, and the traditional bone and bead choker. Design 1, the tribe's preference, includes eagle feathers in the lower border of the design. Inscriptions are Sicangu Lakota and Code Talkers. Here is obverse 1, again the tribe's preference, and obverse 2. Moving on to the reverse designs, reverses 1 and 2 depict variations of the Rosebud (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 11 Sioux Tribe seal. Inscriptions are Rosebud Sioux Tribe World War II, and Act of Congress 2008. Here is reverse 1, again the tribe's preference, and reverse 2. That's it, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. Thank you, April. Before we move to our discussion on the merits of the design, if there are any questions of a technical nature that members would like to ask, I would ask you to do that now. Heidi? MS. WASTWEET: I was told that it is technically inaccurate to wear the dog tags on the outside of the shirt. Was this an artistic decision, or has this been discussed? MR. EVERHART: That's never been discussed that I know of. MS. WASTWEET: CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. A follow-up on that. Do these designs, because they are in a military context, do they go through the Department of (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 12 Defense, or someone like that? MS. STAFFORD: say that. Yes, I was just about to We did not specifically have a conversation about the dog tags being visible, but DOD, our liaisons with whom we worked of course on this entire program, did look at these, yes, and that was not a cause of concern. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. You know what I would suggest is -- I mean, because both designs have that feature to them -- after we're done with this process, I suggest that it be double-checked because I think that there may be -- that may be an issue that maybe was overlooked before. Are there any other technical questions? MR. MORAN: The soldier, the code talker in the medal, the first medal, has its sleeves all the way down and buttoned, whereas, you've got them rolled up in the second one. In the South Pacific I doubt that they would have had their sleeves down all the way unrolled, and that's an issue probably I'll be looking at to correct. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. Anyone else? (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 13 Robert? MR. HOGE: Do we know that this unit, including the Rosebud code talkers, was stationed in the South Pacific? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: That may be something that Mr. Whitt could answer if he knows this, if the code talkers from your tribe were stationed in the South Pacific. MR. WHITT: It would help us. As far as something specific, veteran's specific cases I couldn't tell you that. DOD. I believe those were cleared with the I don't know. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. WHITT: Thank you. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Mary. Mr. Whitt, how many code talkers in your tribe are still alive? MR. WHITT: None. The last one died in 2010. MS. LANNIN: So we can't use that as a resource, okay. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Donald. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 14 MR. SCARINI: Before you sit down again, was your -- was the issue with your selection of -- you know, with your preference of obverse 2 over obverse 1, was the issue simply the -CHAIRMAN MARKS: MS. STAFFORD: It's 1. MR. SCARINI: They prefer 1. Oh, you prefer 1? MS. STAFFORD: 1 in both counts. 1 obverse and 1 reverse. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. SCARINI: 1 and 1. Then I have no question. Thank you. CHAIRMAN MARKS: technical questions? Are there other Okay. I'm going to move on to our evaluation phase, and as I do that I want to suggest to the committee that there are maybe two different ways we can approach. There, of course, is our traditional method of each member in turn making comments, and we go around the table, or I'll be giving the relative few number of designs we're looking at, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 15 and that there are two -- well, there's a definite preference for the tribe, for both the obverse and reverse design. If it is the liking of the committee, we could take a motion, and then we could have discussion on that motion, and any member who felt like they wanted to make some comments could. So is there a preference of how we proceed? Donald? MR. SCARINI: I think this is simple enough to make a motion, and I would -- and if the Chair would accept the motion, I would move that we support obverse 1 and reverse 1, which is what the tribe -- which is the tribe's preference. CHAIRMAN MARKS: All right. There's a motion on the table to recommend obverse 1 and reverse 1. Is there a second to the motion? MR. VIOLA: I second it. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Let's have some discussion. Herman seconded. Okay. Are there members who would like to comment on the designs? MS. LANNIN: Gary, I'd like say that the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 16 only thing that bothers me about 1 is that the feather covers part of the name of the tribe, and that's why I found design 2 kind of interesting that it popped it out a little bit more. be adjusted? Can that That would just be a technical thing, or a design thing. MR. EVERHART: That's no problem. We can do that. MS. LANNIN: Can you? MR. EVERHART: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MS. LANNIN: Okay. Anything more, Mary? No, that's it. Thanks, Don. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN MARKS: If I could -- Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: -- just step in for a second in regard to that feather. going through the letters. I like it I think its fine, but I think the feather on the design number 2 is a little more convincing. And also, since we're choosing, I hope, design number 1, and the dog tags really are (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 17 allowed to be outside the shirt, I believe that number 2 is a little bit more representational on how the dog tags actually hang on the body. That maybe this -- and I don't know, I would think we need a military advisor to be able to address this -- but if -- that would make me feel a little more comfortable to have that, and maybe we could take the sleeve off of that one, if that's appropriate. That's a lot, but I like this design number 1 very, very much. It was my choice. I think it's very representative of the people who served as code talkers. Thank you. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. SCHARINCI: Donald? My only comments on the design of the obverse are to make the -- if it's possible, to make the Indian figure be a full figure as opposed to a bust that's kind of chopped off right under the shoulders. And, you know, and just to make a comment that I, you know, I would assume this would be too difficult to do, but you know it would be really cool if we could incuse the Indian. That would be very cool. But it's a (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 18 comment. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. Okay. Anyone else? I'll call for the question. All those in favor, please raise your hand. It looks like a unanimous vote. you very much. Thank And that was a motion to recommend obverse 1 and reverse 1. So are there any final comments? MR. WHITT: Sir? I have one comment, sir. As far as the feature of the dog tag being on the outside of the shirt, that was actually something that was kind of like, requested, or favored by the tribe. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. Okay. Thank you. At this time, we would move to our review and discussion of candidate designs for the 2016 Mark Twain Commemorative Coin Program. April Stafford. REVIEW AND DISCUSS CANDIDATE DESIGNS FOR THE 2016 MARK TWAIN COMMEMORATIVE COIN PROGRAM MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. It is Public Law 112-201 that requires the Secretary of the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 19 Treasury to mint and issue not more than 100,000 $5.00 gold coins, and not more than 350,000 $1.00 silver coins in commemoration of Mark Twain. The legislation specifies that the design of the coins be emblematic of Twain's life and legacy. Surcharges shall be paid equally to the Mark Twain House and Museum in Hartford, Connecticut, the University of California Berkeley for the benefit of the Mark Twain Project at the Bancroft Library, to the Elmira College New York, and to the Mark Twain Boyhood Home and Museum in Hannibal, Missouri. Required obverse inscriptions are Liberty, In God We Trust, and 2016. Required reverse inscriptions are United States of America, E Pluribus Unum, and the denomination of the coin. We will have with us our liaison for this program, Cindy Lovell, executive director of the Mark Twain House and Museum. Cindy, are you on the line with us? MS. LOVELL: MS. STAFFORD: Yes, April, thank you. Okay. Can we ask you to (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 20 say a few words to the committee, and after that we'll go through all of the designs, and the design descriptions. MS. LOVELL: Sure. I appreciate the opportunity to meet with you by phone. I've been down with the flu, and I couldn't be there in person, although my thoughts are with you all. This is a tough decision, and I appreciate it. I have been in contact with my colleagues in the Twain world at the other institutions, and we're all very excited and very impressed by the designs and looking forward to the discussion here. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you, Cindy. If there are no questions, I'll go through the designs. We'll start with the gold obverse. Obverse 1 features a portrait of Mark Twain. Here is obverse 1. Obverse 2 features a portrait of Mark Twain wearing a steamboat captain's hat, and the additional inscription, "Mark Twain." Obverse 3 features Mark Twain reading a (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 21 book with the additional inscription of Mark Twain's signature. 4 features a portrait of Mark Twain with the additional inscriptions, "Humor and Mark Twain." Obverses 5, 6, and 7 feature a portrait of Mark Twain. Design 6 and 7 also feature Mark Twain's signature. In design 6, Halley's Comet, which coincided with his birth and death, encircles the design. This is obverse 5, obverse 6, and obverse 7. Obverse 8 features a steamboat with Mark Twain's face appearing in the steam. Comet streaks across the design. Halley's The design also features the additional inscription, "Mark Twain." 9 features a portrait of Mark Twain encircled by the path of Halley's Comet. comet itself streaks behind his head. The The design also features Mark Twain's signature. Obverses 10 and 11 feature portraits of Mark Twain with stars and Halley's Comet. The (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 22 designs also feature his signature. Here is obverse 10 and 11. Obverses 12 and 13 feature a portrait of Mark Twain and a steamboat, along with Twain's signature. Here's 12 and 13. Obverse 14 features a portrait of Twain with a stylized image of water, and a ship's wheel behind him. The design also features Twain's signature. Obverse 15 features Mark Twain standing at a ship's wheel. 16 features a portrait of Mark Twain flanked by a woman and an African-American man. The two additional figures represent the underrepresented for whom Twain advocated in his speeches and writings, and those are our gold obverses. Moving on to the gold reverses. Reverse 1 depicts two young boys representative of Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn. Here, they fish on the dock as one spots something worth investigating. Halley's Comet appears in the sky above them. Reverse 2, Huck Finn and Jim float on (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 23 their raft down the Mississippi River. Reverse 3, Huck and Jim float on their raft down the Mississippi River, and above the figures, Mark Twain's hand is seen writing the title of his book. Reverses 4 and 4a, Mark Twain waives goodbye from aboard Halley's Comet. Design 4 contains the additional inscription, "Return of Halley's Comet." This is reverse 4 and 4a. Reverse 5 features a steamboat. Reverses 6 and 6a, Jim and Huck Finn raft down the Mississippi River with a steamboat in the background. Design 6a features a lead line around the design; Twain's pen name is taken from the call of the leadsmen where the depth reached -when the depth reached two fathoms. back to 6? So can we go There's 6, and 6a. Reverse 7 shows Mark Twain standing aboard a raft on the Mississippi. Reverse 8 features a steamboat representing Twain's years as a steamboat pilot, and the additional inscription, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 24 "Life on the Mississippi." Reverse 9, Jim and Huck Finn fish from their raft on the Mississippi. Reverse 10, this design features a paddle wheel, and housing from an imagined sidewheeled steamboat named Freedom. Much of Twain's writing revolves around the concept of freedom, with the Mississippi River and boats serving as symbols of liberty and independence. And that concludes the gold obverse and reverse. I'll move on to the silver. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MS. STAFFORD: Please do. Silver obverse. Obverse 1, a portrait of Mark Twain holding a pipe with a silhouette of Huck Finn and Jim on a raft in the background. Obverse 2 shows a portrait of Mark Twain with Halley's Comet. The additional inscriptions are Twain's signature, and the dates of his life, 1835 to 1910. Obverse 3, a portrait of Mark Twain with Tom Sawyer in the foreground, while one of his (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 25 friends whitewashes the fence behind him. Obverse 4, Mark Twain sits at a desk, pen in hand, the quote reads, "The human race has one really effective weapon and that is laughter." He's surrounded by elements from his writings, a riverboat, a knight from "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court," the fence from Tom Sawyer, and a frog from "The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County." Obverse 5 shows a portrait of Mark Twain with a ship's wheel in the background. Obverses 6 and 7 are portraits of Mark Twain with a steamboat in the background, and a signature in the foreground. This is obverse 6 and 7. Obverse 8 is another portrait of Twain. Obverse 9, another portrait of Twain with a steamboat in the foreground, and a fence in the background, with "Mark Twain" painted across it. Obverses 10 and 10a are portraits of Mark Twain holding a pipe with Halley's Comet (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 26 streaking overhead. This is obverse 10 and 10a. Obverse 11 features an assortment of characters leaping to life from Mark Twain's works, the knight and horse from "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court," the frog from "The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County," and the figures of Jim and Huck from "Adventures of Huckleberry Finn." Obverse 12 features characters from two of Mark Twain's works, again, the knight in force and the frog, the former being from "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court," and the latter from "The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County." Obverse 13 is a portrait of Mark Twain with two depictions of Halley's Comet representing its appearance on the day of his birth, and the day of his death. Obverse 14 features a portrait of Mark Twain and his signature. Obverses 15 and 15a feature portraits of Twain, his signature, and the inscription, "Samuel Langhorne Clemens." (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 27 In design 15, a steamboat can be seen in the background, and in design 15a it includes a young boy symbolic of Twain's own childhood memories, and also representative of Tom Sawyer. So this is obverse 15 and 15a. Moving on to the silver reverse. Reverse 1, this design depicts the paddlewheel of an imagined side wheeler riverboat named Mark Twain. Reverse 2, here, Mark Twain stands at a ship's wheel. The inscription above reads, "Travel is fatal to prejudice." The design also features Twain's signature. Reverse 3 features a steamboat, Mark Twain's signature, and the quote, "The human race has one really effective weapon, and that is laughter." Additional inscriptions read, "Humorous, humorist, and 1835-1910," the years of Twain's life. Reverse 4 depicts Twain's study in Elmira, New York where Twain wrote over many summers. The quote reads, "My books are water. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 28 Those of the great geniuses are wine. Everybody drinks water." We have no reverse silver 5, so we'll go to reverse 6 and 6a. on a dock. Here Huck Finn and Jim sit In design 6a, a raft floats nearby with a steamboat in the distance. This is reverse 6 and 6a. Reverse 7, a young boy reminiscent of Huckleberry Finn catches a fish on the riverbank with a steamboat in the background. Reverse 8, Tom Sawyer sits under a tree eating an apple while his friend whitewashes his aunt's fence for him. Reverse 9, Mark Twain stands as a steamboat pilot. Reverse 10, the front view of Mark Twain's 19-room home in Hartford, Connecticut, where he lived from 1874 to 1891, and wrote many of his major works. Below is one his well known quotes, "Honor has no statute of limitations." Reverse 11, the frog from "The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County" (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 29 begins its leap over the Twain quote, "A lack of money is the root of all evil." The main character in the short story attempts to make easy money by betting on his trained frog. Below the quote is a pile of quail shot pellets used by his gambling opponent to weigh down the frog. Reverse 12 features four elements representative of Mark Twain's life, the steamboat is surrounded by a stylized ship's wheel, the Mississippi River itself, and Halley's Comet. Reverse 13, Huck Finn and Jim float down the Mississippi River on their raft with a steamboat in the background. And finally, reverse 14. This design features three elements from Twain's life and work: A steamboat, the frog from "The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County," and Huck Finn fishing on the riverbank. The design is bisected by a scroll reading, "Mark Twain." Okay. So reverse 13 was missing from the large projections, but I'd ask you to refer either to your handouts, or to the contact sheet (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 30 here, okay? And that concludes the designs, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. Thank you, April. Before we ask technical questions, I want to go through the culling process -- that's c-u-l-l-i-n-g, culling process. And for Ms. Lovell's reference, what we normally do on a program like this, where we have many designs to look at, is that the committee will go through an initial process where we cull out, or we determine if there is interest in each and every design, and we'll be setting some aside while keeping others that we can then have more time to focus on. So that would be the process that we're about to engage in. And I see that maybe Heidi has a comment. MS. WASTWEET: Before we do the culling process, could we, April, get the stakeholder preferences? (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 31 MS. STAFFORD: Sure. I was just about to say I did send some initial feedback from Ms. Lovell. But, Cindy, since you're on the phone, would you like to share your feelings about the portfolio overall and specifically draw the committee's attention to any designs that are preferred by you? MS. LOVELL: Sure, I'm happy to do that. The -- they're all fantastic, of course. Some are better -- much better likenesses of Sam Clemens than others, and so that gives the culling process on our end a little easier, because, you know, his face is so recognizable, and I hate to give you a lot of numbers of things that are just great, but I think you can agree that it's a tough decision to have so many great ones. On this gold obverse, numbers 3, 5, 6, 7, and 8, and 13 really popped out as which are generally good. And then in the gold reverse, number 3, 5, 8, and 9 were exceptionally good. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 32 And then the silver obverse numbers 4, 5, 6, 9, and 11. And then in the silver reverse numbers 2, 3, 4. 8 is good. The boards are going the wrong way in the fence according to the actual foray, but I don't think that's -- I think that's something that could be altered. And then 10, 11, 12, and 14 are all exceptionally good as well. A lot to choose from, and I'm sorry, I wish that -- I wish that it was easier for you. This is a real challenge, I'm sure, to make a decision here. MS. STAFFORD: So for the committee's benefit, if I could just read back Ms. Lovell's designs that she points out. For the gold obverse, it is 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 13. For the gold reverse, 3, 5, 8, and 9. For the silver obverse, 4, 5, 6, 9, and 11. I'd note, as well, if Cindy's not going to, in her initial feedback, Cindy wrote that 11 was her very favorite, just stunning. But, Cindy, we welcome any input if you (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 33 -- you're more than welcome to share your feelings on the designs as the committee discusses. MS. LOVELL: MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Thank you. And finally, for the silver reverse, we have 2, 3, 4, 8, 10, 11, 12, and 14. And on 10, the silver reverse 10, Ms. Lovell also said, "Simply flawless. classy. Very Great art, great quote." Cindy, did I capture that correctly? MS. LOVELL: You did. I don't want to be playing favorites, though, The Mark Twain House in full disclosure. You know I was the director of the boyhood home in Hannibal. I am now the director of the Mark Twain House in Hartford, and number 10, here, is the Mark Twain House in Hartford. It is just an incredible likeness of the house. I also really like number 4 for the reverse, where they show the octagon writing study that belonged to Mark Twain in Elmira, where he did a lot of the writing, so I'm trying very hard to not -- you know what I mean, to not be playing (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 34 favorites to our house. likeness. It is just a remarkable It's kind of hard not to be drawn to it, so... MS. STAFFORD: Understood. Thank you very much. MS. LOVELL: Sure. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. Thank you. Just a comment to -- I've mentioned this before to the committee, but in the public session I'll just state that it's typical for the committee, when we look at a program that has more than one denomination -- in this case we have a $5.00 gold coin and a silver dollar -- that sometimes the committee ultimately mixes some of these designs up and decides, for example, that maybe there's a design that was presented as silver that might present better on a gold coin, and vice verse. So I'm going to encourage the members to keep that in mind as we do our evaluation today. And I wanted to mention it ahead of the culling process so if that influences some of your decisions about what you'd like to pull out, that (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 35 that could be in the front of your mind. So before we do the culling, I understand that Erik has a comment. MR. JANSEN: As I went through this art, a lot of very different designs here, and obviously we have a smaller palette with the gold plate than in the silver one, so that speaks to I think appropriate, or less than appropriate designs. But the real key question I have for the committee members, and especially before we go culling, I'm just curious if anyone has any thoughts in terms of what would the gold designs stand for, say, represent in contrast to the silver designs? That is to say, do we want to make the gold commemorative mean one thing, and the silver another? And I don't know what those things would be. But otherwise, we're kind of in a position here of just picking two pair of designs, not intentionally making the gold or the silver mean -- maybe message, or just culture, or the man (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 36 versus his story, or I don't know what the contrasting ideas might be, but I was curious if anyone on the committee had really resolved that in their own mind, because I'd like to hear it. CHAIRMAN MARKS: thought on that? Does anyone have a Donald? MR. SCARINCI: very good point, Erik. Yes. You know, that's a I had the same thought when I looked at these, but, you know, unfortunately, what I probably would have done with this is taken two -- either one of two things, either taken two periods of Mark Twain's life, and focused on one for one coin, and another for the other coin. Maybe with two different portraits, one representing younger Mark Twain, and one representing an older one. We don't have that, so we can't deal with that. The other thing I might have done is made the dollar coin, since it's a larger palette, I might have made the dollar coin into the -- and I hate to -- we don't like story boards, so I don't want to use that word, but I would have made (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 37 that into something more representative of the bulk of his works, and then use the gold coin for the portrait. And I -- you know, maybe the dollar coin, both sides, not being a portrait, and then the gold coin being the portrait. So I would have done that, either of those things, but we don't really have that in front of us, and I think that would be designed by committee at this point if we tried to do that at this meeting. CHAIRMAN MARKS: You know, I think Erik makes a good point, and in the interest of trying to simplify how we approach this, because that could -- Erik's question could become very complicated to try to address. I would suggest that we try to pick the best art here, initially, and then as I've already suggested, regardless of denominations as they've been -- whatever category they've been presented to us as, that we then decide -- I mean, at that point we could have a discussion about, you know, is there a thematic direction you want to go with (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 38 one coin versus the other. But I think to keep this simple, I think we need to try to pull the best of the best out first, and then see what we have. If a couple of the best are the same thing, we can work down the list, but I'd like to make sure that whatever we do, that we've got the best artwork to represent this great man, and then let's talk about how we pair them up. Does that sound like a logical way to proceed? Okay. In the interest of time, then, I'm going to go ahead and do the culling process, and for the person operating our screen today, we're going to be moving fairly rapidly through each of the designs. I'll be holding them up, but I'd like to ask that those also be put up as I call them out. So I'll start with the gold coin, and I'll start with the obverse designs. The process here is that any member's one vote, or indication of support, is sufficient to keep a design in the running. If there is no (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 39 indication of support, then it seems pointless to continue to focus on it, and we will set it aside. Once we've gone through the totality of the designs, I will circle back and do a final report back on which designs remain to be considered. So with that, I will now move on to the process. Is there interest in obverse 1? COLLECTIVE GROUP: CHAIRMAN MARKS: Yes. MALE SPEAKER: Yes. Obverse 2? CHAIRMAN MARKS: Yes. Obverse 3? You said yes? Obverse 4? MALE SPEAKER: Yes. CHAIRMAN MARKS: That's a yes. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Before we go any further, I want to encourage people that this process is designed to make it so we have additional time to focus on the best of the best. Clearly, we have some great designs here, but I (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 40 want to encourage everyone to be discerning in not putting everything into our final process, or we've really accomplished nothing with this exercise. So obverse 5. Is there support? MALE SPEAKER: Yes. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Yes. FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes. CHAIRMAN MARKS: 7. MALE SPEAKER: 6? CHAIRMAN MARKS: Yes. Okay, 7 is in. We've not eliminated anything yet, folks. 8? Is there interest in 8? Setting 8 aside. Interest in 9? Interest in 10? Setting 9 aside. Number 11? 12? Setting 10 aside. Setting 11 aside. Setting 12 aside. 13? MALE SPEAKER: CHAIRMAN MARKS: Yes. Okay. We'll keep that one in our review. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 41 14? There appears -- yes? Okay, interest in 14. 15? FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Yes. 16? Setting 16 aside. That completes the offers for gold. I will now move on to the gold reverses. Is there interest in number 1? COLLECTIVE GROUP: CHAIRMAN MARKS: Yes. Yes. Number 2? Setting 2 aside. Number 3? MALE SPEAKER: Yes. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Yes on 3. I'll just ask, for those on the phone, are you hearing the responses, or are we not speaking into the microphones? MS. LOVELL: I can hear most of them. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. Is there interest in 4? MALE SPEAKER: Yes. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 42 CHAIRMAN MARKS: Interest in 4a? Come on, people. 4a? Setting that aside. 5? FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes. CHAIRMAN MARKS: 6? 6a? No interest in 6. Setting 6a aside. 7? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: CHAIRMAN MARKS? 8? Yes. Yes on 7. Passing on 8. 9? MALE SPEAKER: CHAIRMAN MARKS: Yes. Yes. Heidi just put 8 back in. 10? Yes. Okay, that takes us to the silver obverses. 1? FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Yes. 2? Interest in 2? 3? Setting 3 aside. Setting 2 aside. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 43 4? MALE SPEAKER: Yes. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Interest in 4. 5? FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Yes. 6? Setting 6 aside. Interest in 7? No interest in 7. 8? Setting 8 aside. 9? Setting 9 aside. 10? I'll say yes. 10a? Yes on 10a. 11? FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Yes on 11. 12? No interest in 12. 13? Interest in 13? Setting 12 aside. Setting 13 aside. 14? FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Yes. 15? Setting 15 aside. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 44 15a? Setting that one aside. MS. LANNIN: Can we put 15 back in? Sorry. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MS. LANNIN: Which one? 15. CHAIRMAN MARKS: 15. 15 has been restored. Going on to the silver reverses. 1? Yes. 2? Passing on 2. 3? MR. JANSEN: Can you reinstate 2, please? CHAIRMAN MARKS: 2 reinstated. 3? There is interest in 3. 4? Interest in 4? MR. SCARINCI: CHAIRMAN MARKS: In 4, yes. Yes? 6? Setting 6 aside. 6a? Passing on 6a. There is no 5. 7? FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 45 CHAIRMAN MARKS: Yes. 8? Interest in 8? 9? Passing on 9. Passing on 8. 10? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: CHAIRMAN MARKS: Yes. Yes. 11? I'll say yes. 12? Passing on 12. 13? Passing on 13. 14? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: CHAIRMAN MARKS: All right. Yes. Yes. I will now recount which designs we will continue to look at, and I will urge members, since we've gone to this use of time, that we not consider those that we've ruled out so that we can then focus on the what was left. So what we have here is we have -- and these are all remaining in consideration. Gold obverse 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 13, 14, 15. Gold reverses 1, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, and (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 46 10. Going on to silver obverses, we have still under review 1, 4, 5, 10, 10a, 11, 14, 15. Going to silver reverses, we have remaining 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 10, 11, and 14. So now that we've identified which ones we wish to continue to look at, I will ask for members to address staff with any technical questions. Those are questions that don't bear to whether you like a design or not, but any technical questions about a design as far as accuracy, or coinability, or what have you, so... Erik? MR. JANSEN: Maybe it's because of the subject matter, here, Mark Twain and his erratic wild, wonderful silver hair. I've heard a lot of comments in the past from various people on this committee, collectors I know, about the way the Mint is rendering hair these days, and I think we're in a migration back to spaghetti hair if we're not really careful, and I think that is really going to wreck this design. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 47 So almost independent of what we choose here, I really want to ask the sculpting artist, whoever inherits this, that the Mint really suggest that that hair be sculpted and not -- is spaghetti-ized a word? It is now -- that we not noodle his hair, because I think -- well, in this case, we're going to wreck his hair, his eyebrows, his mustache, and god knows what else. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Thank you, Erik. Are there others who have technical questions? Robert. MR. HOGE: Mine is somewhat related. I've noticed these images -MALE SPEAKER: MR. HOGE: Speak into the mic. My question is somewhat related, and I've noticed that the images of Twain here seem to cover a good span of his life, and there is a good deal of variation in this characteristic hair. And I'd like to know if we're correct in the opinions shown by the artists in these portraits to whether the parting of his hair is on the left side, or the right side, or in (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 48 the middle, or no part, because you see all of these. And I wonder if some of these are not transposed images from the antique daguerreotypes, or something like that where you think it's on the left side, but it was really on the right. I'm just curious, is this something that has been addressed at all? MS. STAFFORD: We have our liaison obviously on the phone, and she worked with us on the portfolio, so what I might suggest is, through her preferences, she did note the best likenesses. But I would suggest that as deliberation on a particular favored design happens, we reach out to her and ask her to comment on that, just to reassure us of the likeness. CHAIRMAN MARKS: technical questions? Okay. Are there others, other begin our review process. Hearing none, we'll I think I'll start to my far right. And, Donald, are you ready? MR. JANSEN: Actually, Gary, on an overarching question, I do have one on the Mint. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 49 When it comes to the gold versus the silver here, do we have any legislated specs that would dictate various Liberty, In God We Trust devises on one side, versus the other, or is it the same in both programs? MS. STAFFORD: It's all the same except for the denomination. MR. JANSEN: Okay. So in that sense, we have a fairly simple interchangeability issue here, as we saw gold obverse that somebody said I think that should be a silver obverse, we don't have to necessarily do a lot of devise tweaking. MS. STAFFORD: Correct. The obverses there would have to be no changes, just the reverses for the denominations. MR. JANSEN: Denomination only. Yeah, right, right. Okay. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Thank you. And before Donald starts, for Ms. Lovell's understanding on the phone, what we do now is each member has an opportunity to make comments about their preferences, or even their dislikes concerning (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 50 these designs, and we find that the totality of that process really informs all of us, and ultimately influences how we all ultimately vote, which we do here at the end. So, Donald, if you're ready to comment, please proceed. MR. SCARINCI: Yeah, before I start, I just want to keep in mind the size of this coin, a very small palette, and you need -- on a small palette anything that's too busy is just going to get lost. So prefacing with that, and not conceptually thinking in terms of a design here that would be better for us for the dollar size, I want to highlight a few -- two designs in particular. First, I want to -- as to number 1, what I don't like about number 1, and even though I guess this is absolutely accurate from time-totime, the bushy eyebrow, it kind makes him look a little too devilish in this portrait. There are things I like about the portrait; I just don't (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 51 like the -- you know, I just don't like the eyebrow in the face pointed in that particular direction. I think it looks too -- I think it looks somewhat evil, actually. So in terms of the design, I think that would be the most striking for a portrait on a gold coin would be number 4. fills the planchet. decent likeness. You know, the head You know, it's actually a I like the way the -- it's cut off at the neck, you know, by the rim, so it's got a lot going for it. It would be, for the size of the planchet, my favorite portrait. If we wanted to do something that was more of a depiction using the gold coin as more of a depiction, and reserving the portrait for the silver coin, which we could do. We could use the silver coin as the main portrait, and use the gold coin as more of an illustration of his work, although I think probably the other way around might be better because the planchet size on the dollar lends itself to a little busy -- a little more in the image that would be busy. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 52 So if we went in that direction, I would suggest in using the gold coin I would suggest number 3. But I think really because of the size of the coin, I think we should go with our portrait on the gold coin, and because of that, I think the best portrait for that size is number 4. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Thank you, Donald. We'll go to Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: Are we just doing the obverse gold? CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. SCARINCI: Did you do -I just did the obverse. CHAIRMAN MARKS: need to -- I'm sorry. No, no, I'm sorry. I did not explain. to go through all of the designs. I We need We're looking at this -- I'm sorry, I should have explained that a little bit more. You want to look at all of it and give one big review, and then we can vote, and not have to go through this process, you know, either twice or four times. MR. SCARINCI: continue. Oh, okay. Then let me The reverse -- for the reverse I just (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 53 loved -- I just loved number 1. I just think that's -- I just think the -- and I think the combination of observe 4, or even observe 3, and reverse 1 is the answer. I wasn't -- I didn't catch who suggested that we continue to look at obverse -- reverse 4, and reverse 4a, so I won't even ask who wants to see those, but that's just not -- I just don't particularly think that's -that might be good for H.G. Wells, but not for Mark Twain. I also really don't like obverse 7 that we're still considering. a gold coin. It's just not right for If we were going to use obverse -- if we were going to use reverse 7 -- I'm sorry, reverse I'm talking about. If we were going to use reverse 7, the only place I would use a reverse 7 is on a dollarsized palette, so I just don't think it's, you know, for a gold coin -- for the size of the gold coin, if we didn't do 1, the only other two that I would really -- or the three that I would really consider would work -- or two that I really would (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 54 consider would work would be 5 and 8 only because it has the larger image. And I think that's really what you want in the gold coin. I think you want one image, punch it out, make it big, and that's it. Don't try to do too much with a small coin like this. think it's a loser if you do. I Save that for the dollar size. So now going to the dollar size. If we use the dollar size, and my thought was we use the dollar size to really do more with what Mark Twain did, use the gold to do the big portrait, simple image on the reverse. Use the dollar to do -- I hate to use the word story board because we have a dislike for that word, but the narrative, okay? That's a good way to say it. I like number 4. I think on the dollar size you can get away with number 4. I think it does a lot of things, but I think the only way you carry it off is on the dollar size. going on there. There's a lot I like the use of -- and again, I like the use of words on a Mark Twain coin because (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 55 that's what Mark Twain did. He used words. So I think in this case, I like number 4. I could see those who, if you want to use the portrait on the dollar coin, I could see those who want obverse 10. obverse 10. I could understand I think that's a really -- in terms of a -- if we were going to make this our portrait coin, I'd go with obverse 10, but I wouldn't make this our portrait coin. For the reverse here, I thought that number 4 -- I actually like number 4, even though it depicts a building. And if I paired it with obverse 4, the one I would use would be reverse 10, even though I really don't like buildings on coins, generally, from a salability point of view. I could see this -- I could see these coins in the gift shop for a very long time, and from a -- at the end of the day with a commemorative coin, that's really the purpose. The purpose is to help the sponsoring organization, so I could see, since that's their location, I could certainly see this coin being a (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 56 big seller in the gift shop of that location. So if were to do that, it bodes for using this reverse 10 as the reverse, paired with obverse 4, which has a lot going on, illustrating Mark Twain. It also is a different portrait than the one that we'd be using on the gold, on the obverse for the gold coin that I like, the bold one, this is a different portrait. here. He's younger It's a little younger time, so I think that -- that's where I would come down on this. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Thank you, Donald. Now, Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, Gary. We'll start with gold obverse 1. think this is a really stunning drawing. the expression on his face. I I like I think it looks mischievous, and full of humor rather than devilish. I really like this. I was hoping to have a little more to the portrait, rather than just the straight portrait, but this drawing is so outstanding that I'm really drawn to it. I also like number 3 because we have the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 57 image of the book, and it's a younger, so, and the signature is nice. I agree with Donald on obverse 4. think this -- I like this portrait. I I like the way it fills the coin, and its engaging gaze. I like that as well. I'm also liking obverse 14 because of the graphic depiction of the paddlewheel behind him. I think it adds interest as opposed to 13 where it shows the whole ship behind him, and this is just way too much on the size of a coin. On the ship there is people, there's all this detail, and the waves, and the background. Really look at the size of a gold coin, and it's way too small for this level of detail. So 14 is a much better solution to depict the river, the riverboat, in a simple, symbolic fashion. I like this. For the reverses -- when I think of Mark Twain, I automatically think of Huckleberry Finn. The two just in my mind are together, and that's just my personal views. I would like to see (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 58 representation of Huckleberry Finn on one of these sides, personally. Number 1, I think is -- it's bold, but I think it goes too far in the simplicity direction. If this had been stylized with just a little bit of detail, I would have liked it a lot better. like the composition. I It's just a little too simple to attract me. Number 5 is okay with just the riverboat. It doesn't say as much to me as some of the others. Number 8, I like because the ship is coming directly at the viewer. I really like design number 9. the composition. I like It might be a bit much for the small coin, but I really like the creativity of this piece, the placement of the text, and it does talk to the characters that he created. I like this a lot. Design number 10, this is similar -this concept is similar to another design we liked recently that was a train wheel. I feel this is a (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 59 little repetitive of that train wheel we liked in the other project. And while it does depict the environment that he worked in, I don't think that just a paddlewheel alone says enough about Mark Twain, in my mind. On reverse 7, if we can go backwards just for a second, I really like this design a lot for its dreamlike quality, because Mark Twain, if nothing, was imaginative, and this is an imaginative design. We've been asking for a lot more symbolism and creativity, and this delivers it. His stance is dignified. Donald is correct, this is not appropriate for a tiny gold piece, but if we are looking at this as a whole set, I think this would look nice on the silver. As these are laid out, we're looking at possibly having two busts, one on the gold and one on the silver. I think it would be more interesting to have an obverse bust on the gold, and then on the silver have an obverse full figure as more variety, rather than having two competing busts. So I would suggest contemplating this as a (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 60 silver obverse. And the group for the silver obverses, design number 1, I really love this concept. The creativity, again, we've been asking for from the artists really delivered. I love the smoke becoming the characters, but I can't quite get past the portrait. I don't think the portrait is as good as it needs to be compared to the other options that we have. Design number 4, I think this is still way too busy for a coin size. detail in the boat. There's a lot of That could have just been a silhouette, it would have been better. The very tiny characters down below, if you really think about the size of this it's too much going on. And the way the words In God We Trust run over the legs of the horse, it's -- in a drawing it looks fine, but in sculpt it's just not going to show up as well as in this drawing, and I'm not for that. I really like obverses 10 and 10a. not sure which one I like better. both equally. I'm I live them I love the addition of the comet. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 61 I think is really an interesting detail about his life, and I like seeing that. Design 11, it has a lot going on, but I think that it could be done. I think this could be -- I think this could work. 14 is another nice portrait, but again, it's not as creative as some of the other choices. For the reverses, I am of the opinion as other members that I don't like to see so much text on a coin. For Mark Twain, we can read his quotes in many different places. We can read his books. We don't need to read it on the coin as well. The coin, I think, should be more visual. I really like obverse 7. I think this is a really sweet depiction of the character -excuse me -- I think its reverse 7. that correction. a nice touch. Thank you for The texture in the hat is really The texture in the fish is going to read very well in the coin. On reverse 8, again, this is a really nice drawing, but as a coin design, it's not going to read as well. The boy painting the fence is (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 62 going to be very, very tiny, and it's going to be hard to depict in a sculpt the difference between the painted fence and the unpainted fence. You can maybe make that leap, but it's just not a -the best choice I think for a coin sculpt. Reverse 10, I can see going this direction. I wouldn't be opposed to this. It does have a lot of meaning to his life, and it's a nice depiction of the building. On number 11, when I saw this I thought those were eggs, frog eggs. I don't think that the -- it really gets across the story as the artist intended. And then I would have liked to have seen more designs that use the Samuel Clemens name, but we don't have that. That concludes my comments. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Thank you, Heidi. I'll make my comments now, and I'll preface them first with some observations about what we're looking at here. First is, there's been some mention (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 63 about the size of the coins, and I just want to just kind of reference that to something that maybe we're all familiar with. The gold coin is the size of a nickel, so I want everyone to please consider all of the detail, all of -- in some cases the clutter in some of these designs, try to force them to a nickel-sized coin. It won't look good. And I'll try to point some of those out as I go through my individual itemization. Also, the dollar coin, being the larger one, is an inch and a half, so it's, you know, as far coins go it's a pretty good size, and will allow a little more detail. Clutter is another issue that I'm very concerned about, and right off the top, as I look at all of the -- Mark Twain was a very complex person. He accomplished a lot in his lifetime. There's a lot of subject matter here that needs to be looked at, and somehow boiled down to something that still can present well on a very small coin. And I would suggest that while Halley's (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 64 Comet appeared, and then -- or I guess disappeared and reappeared, or whatever it was at the beginning and end of his life, it has nothing whatsoever to do with his life. It was a celestial happenstance, and it's just one more element that I think really doesn't represent the man and his accomplishments in life. So I will urge us to try to avoid the comet depictions here, and if we end up with a design that has a comet on it, count on me for a motion to remove it. Also, just a quick reference, that for me as a professional city manager, I have occasion sometimes to attend ribbon-cutting events where a bridge or a building is being dedicated, and typically on those structures there is a bronze plaque. And on that bronze plaque is text, lots of text, and it gives attribution to the accomplishment in a textual format. They're typically very large pieces of metal, and you can put lots of words on them, and it's appropriate. It's not appropriate for a coin. A coin (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 65 is not a plaque. A coin is best used with the small surfaces that are available to convey something to the human eye in an artistic sense that can speak far more than any words. And I think far too often, during my time on this committee, we have picked designs. We call them designs, but they're not, they're plaques because they're centered around, and the focal point is letters and words. So I'll urge us to stay away from letters and words that dominate. Sure, there are some designs here that are very well suited for an inscription here and there, but there's a few here which we can't argue are mostly about text. And then also, for the collectors on the panel, you are well aware of the next point, and that is that most of these coins will sell as proofs, which means there's basically two -- for lack of a better way to describe it -- two colors, there's frost and there's polish. And so those -- how those are used, and how the negative space of the polish is balanced (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 66 against the frosted raised elements can make or break a design. And I'll try to point a couple on the way here there are broken, I think because we're not paying attention to contrast. So we'll start off with gold obverse 1. I think that this is a nice, clean image of Mark Twain, Samuel Clemens. I think that its simplicity would lend itself well to the nickel size of the gold coin, and I find myself very much drawn to that design. 2 is a fine design, also. about 1, I find more appealing. Something It has a better, I think, more dignified presentation of the man. I think number 3, there's just too much going on for a nickel-sized coin. 4 is a nice attempt, but by the time you cram all the text on there, I'm not feeling really good about that one. I'll look at number 6. comet there. We've got the We've got the signature. acquired inscriptions. We've the And in the process, I don't see anything that really makes it that much (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 67 of an appealing visual. I think there's too much for the nickel, same with nickel-sized coin. The same with 7. If -- I would say that -- well, let me move on. On number 13, the one that was indicated there was interest in it. Trying to put the riverboat alongside the portrait, again, on a nickel-size, that little boat there is going to be diminished down to about the size of maybe a big ant, so I would encourage us to stay away from that kind of an idea. And I guess I don't have a lot to say about the rest on the gold obverses. The silhouette idea for a gold reverse 1, I'm reminded of a half-dollar done in 2001 for the Capitol Visitor Center where it was thought that if you did a profile of the building without detail that that might be a nifty idea. It turned out it didn't have much visual appeal, and it was one of the poorest selling coins I think the Mint has ever come out with. I just don't think there's enough here to make it of interest. I think maybe some more (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 68 detail would have been helpful, and if there had been detail to the two boys here, it may have even made a fine reverse design for the silver dollar. Again, number 4, somehow he's riding the comet. I know I've asked for abstract, but this just goes a little too far for even me. I think reverse number 5 could work well, just if we want a simple presentation of a steamboat. For the size of the coin, I think there'd be some nice contrast between the polish and the frosted raised elements. Heidi indicated her liking of number 7. It is indeed a dreamy design. thoughts about that. I'm holding my I'd like to hear from my -- more of my colleagues on that one. I have some pause about that one. Again, I think number 8 might be -might work well on the back of the gold coin, if we want the riverboat. I like number 9 a lot, but not for the gold. I think if we wanted to do number 9, let's talk about putting it on the reverse of the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 69 silver. I don't know that it's the one I would prefer most for the reverse of the silver, but I think it could work fine, because you have a little more space to really bring out those details, and have it have more of a pop. I really like number 10, whether it be on the reverse of the gold or the silver. Thinking on the silver it would actually have more of a visual impact. I guess, as I look at this, I might ask Don Everhart a question or two of how he would see this sculpted. I'm seeing the word freedom as black, which normally that would tell me that's incuse. And then as I look at the negative space between spokes on the upper half, my eye sees that as polished, and therefore we'd have some nice, interesting artistic contrast. Am I on the right track? MR. EVERHART: That's the way I interpret that, too, Gary. I see the freedom as polished, and all the little radiating spokes, negative spaces, if you will, is polished also. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 70 CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. Thank you. I would just -- this may be my favorite design for the reserve of the silver, not the gold. I just think this would be stunning from a visual point of view on the reverse of the silver dollar. Going to the silver dollar designs on the obverses, I think my favorite obverse is number 1. I think it's -- well, we've been asking for modern. This is certainly modern. It's imaginative with the smoke, although, I'd even be willing to have a conversation about whether that smoke is necessary, or really present in a more clean fashion if it were eliminated. I'm again -- Don Everhart, I'm thinking that that -- the smoke image there becomes a raised element, and maybe a light frosting, is that what you would see with that? MR. EVERHART: CHAIRMAN MARKS: I see it that way, too. Okay. And we do have the technology now to do gradations of our frostings, so this might be an interesting use for that. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 71 Number 4, folks, I am sorry, that is just way over the line. You're cramming way too much, even for the silver dollar. Some of those images are going to diminish down to nearly nothing. Please don't do that, and then we put this text kind of in the middle there. I think -- I'd like to be more positive, but I really think that design is a disaster. I do like number 10; however, that comet's got to go. design. Here again, we have a modern I love the way the hair is just kind of almost standing up on end. It kind of, I don't know, draws me to my ideas about Samuel Clemens/Mark Twain. imaginative man. He was this wildly Humorist. And I just find that -- and it's a profile which I think would look stunning on this design. I think the comet's a total distraction to this design, and I'd to see that gone. Number 11, I'm on the line. there's probably way too much here. I think I like the effort if this were a three-inch bronze medal. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 I Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 72 think you really would have something here in drawing in various elements from Mark Twain's various works. Reverse number 1, I like for the same reasons that I mentioned for a reverse -- a similar reverse on the gold. We could talk about whether it's Mark Twain or freedom. I kind of like freedom for personal reasons. Number 2 is a good example where we've put the text out in front. We've kind of minimized the images, and we're looking at the back of someone, presumably Mark Twain. 3 is a plaque. 4 is a plaque. I really like 7. I think there's just kind of the whimsical image here of the boy and the fish, the paddleboat. Kind of takes me back to that time era in the 1800's. I'm really drawn to this design. 8 is a good example where I think we have so much in the proof version that would be frosted that you really wouldn't have a lot of (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 73 distinctive images here. It would all kind of blend together, and I think sometimes with our new technology of the gradations of the frost, you can take that too far, so I don't think that saves this design. In fact, I think it might even worsen it. I'm somewhat indifferent to number 10, with respect to those -- given to those who think otherwise. coins. We've seen plenty of buildings on Mark Twain's life was not about buildings that he happened to be in or live in. They are about his imagination, about things he wrote about, about the humor he brought to people, and the laughter that resulted. So I would rather see us focus on that than architectural structures. I really like number 11. However, I will admit there's some confusion here with whether they're pellets or eggs or whatever. I guess I'm just taken with the idea of having a frog on the reverse of the United States coin, and I think it's just -- I wish we could. If we have another image or two of a (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 74 frog that the text wasn't kind of the central focus point here, I might be all over that. And I think 14 is interesting. 14 would depend all on how it gets sculpted, and the contrast between frost and polish. I think there's some potential here, although it is borderline clutter, but it does give me that frog. So those are my comments, and now I recognize my friend, Erik. MR. JENSEN: really hard. This one is hard. This is I'm going to try to answer for hopefully the benefit of the committee. The question I ask everybody to kind of start with, and that was what are we saying with the gold, and what are we saying with the silver? I will put the following out, although I'm not able, within the art that's presented, to totally follow my own words here, but I'll do my best. To me the gold needs to be about the man, and maybe his bigger life context philosophy, something like that. It's a Mark Twain (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 75 commemorative gold. It's about the man. The silver, bigger palette, I can entertain more dimensionality, and so to me the silver, comprehending that it is the volume device for the entities that are going to benefit from the surcharge, the silver, the larger device, needs to have a less esoteric, more common man's touch, and so the silver is about the storylines to me. eyes. Gold, the man, the context, the river, the Silver, the storyline, what everybody recognizes, and I'm kind of with Gary, I'd love to have a frog on this thing. So having said that as a premise, gold obverse 1 would accomplish that. It's simple in the context of a nickel, and so it would work. Please, please, please, please, no noodle hair. 4 would also work. The common element between 4 and 1 is the intensity of this man. eyes. The I'm not aware that the other designs that are still in the running have that straight on right at you kind of intensity, and I think that matters here. And it's a challenge to the sculpt, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 76 but I think it is the essence of the obverse on the gold, if the gold is the man. When I go to the reverse -- oh, and before I do anything, can I ask the operator to move to silver obverse -- I'm sorry, hang on. Let me get it together here before I may a request. Yes, silver obverse number 14. Now, this could be a gold obverse here. Bang. Right there. It doesn't have the eyes, and the font size would have to go up on the In God We Trust, maybe Liberty, and the signature might come up a bit, or something, have a little tweaking there. But, I don't want to throw this one out, because I am going throw it out in terms of an obverse for the silver, so I'm going to toss it out later, and not include it, but I wanted to draw it in if only to kind of stimulate initial thoughts and comments here. So returning back to the gold, and let's take a look at the reverses, please. you to dance around. Sorry to ask There we go, and start with (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 77 1, if you would. Okay. made. I think the comments have been I think it's a little too simple for the grandeur of a gold $5.00 coin, so I kind of like the idea, but I don't think I really like the implementation. I think the best reverses here, again, gold, the man, the context of his life, philosophy, that kind of thing. I kind of almost default to reverse 5, because it isn't a storyline, but when I think of Mark Twain, I think of the river. I think of the river of life, the river characters, the river context, the river. The river of life, the river, and that's a riverboat, and that's the river to me. Design number 7 is provocative. The -- to me, in this drawing, anatomically it's a little off. He's kind of a little too wide for his height and hair, so I'm not really thrilled with the way man presents himself. I do love the swirl and the waves here, which is an enormous piece of this message. It (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 78 feels like a creek, not the river. I think that has to do somehow with the width versus the height of the trees, and this is not the Mississippi. I'm not sure what this is. So I'd kind of love to entertain it, but it kind of just hurts me on so many dimensions that I can't get there. Number 9. I don't know if we're going to use this coin, but I just adore the artist, in his or her mind, that came up with this design. This thing is incredible. The way they buy the waterline, they give me fish, they give me the humorous character of these folks. belong on the gold, guys. This doesn't I'm going to pull this one back for the silver. All right, let's go to the silver. Let's go to the obverse of the silver. Now, to me, if first was the man, the silver has to be the story. The imagination. This silver coin, whether it markets in a coin shop, or otherwise, needs to be energetic about the characters. Honestly, I like this design, obverse 1, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 79 and the reason I like it -MS. LOVELL: louder? Excuse me, could you speak I'm having a very hard time hearing. I'm sorry. MR. JANSEN: I can. Is that better? MS. LOVELL: Yes, thank you. MR. JANSEN: I'll pretend I'm a rock star and eat the microphone here. I really like design number 1, and the reason I like it is in conjunction with the technology we now have, this is no longer a man with a pipe. This is a man smoking a dream, and puffing it out for us, and, you know, it's all going to be about Steve Antonucci's texturing, and the way the sculptor does that, please give me good hair. So I'm almost going to lean exclusively into obverse -- I'm almost going to lean exclusively into obverse 1. The curved pipe? Yeah, okay, you can see he's not Sherlock Holmes, and that's what a curved pipe is, but I still think it's kind of (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 80 fun. The mouthpiece might be a little tiny for reality on the pipe, but I just think that what would be negative space, and in front of his forehead filled with a nicely textured, sculpted kind of flatish against the sun with a little less flat, not dominant, but definitely there. Smokey incantation -- is that a word? -- incantation of the imagination. I don't know if the cloud needs to be there behind that. that, by the way? It's kind of funny. What is Is that more smoke, is that a cloud, what is that? Is that a tree line? I'm not sure what it is, so if we adopt this, I would like to consider a little follow-on armchair artistry, but I think those cloud lines, or tree lines, or whatever they are above the sun can be very distracting, but anyway. So I call my attention out to obverse 1. Obverse 10, I know Gary doesn't like comets, this is the best comet. That is the best comet. I'm not sure I like the other comets. Obverse 11 may be a reverse, not an (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 81 obverse. So let's go to the reverses. Again, silver storyline to my mind is about the storylines, is about the imagination, and got to respect Gary's opinion, I don't want to turn it into a plaque, but he was a man of words. Please, don't give me a building, reverse 10. Please don't give me a building. This is not about a man's building, this is about a man's imagination. I almost default, and it's a function of the sculpt guys and gals. Look at reverse 14. If you want to do a mashup, this is your mashup. Mark Twain is dominant. frog, too. We get Gary's frog, my We get the fishing pole, we get the riverboat. Now, the question is, would 14 as a reverse match an obverse, which you don't want to put another boat, another fisher person. I think the obverse I spoke of a moment ago, in obverse 1 is a man with an imagination. It's not the storyline, so I don't see a clash of kind of the storyline doubling up on both sides. I mean, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 82 there's a heads to thing, and the tails is t-a-l-e-s on this coin, it's not t-a-i-l-s. Thank you. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Thank you, Erik. We go to Jeanne. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you, Gary. I have to agree with my esteemed colleague, here, Erik. I really like what you have said about the storyline and the man, and I do very much agree with what your explanation was. I love this piece. I think about when I have a coin or a medal in my hand, I want to be able to close my eyes and feel it, and to understand what that artist has projected into that piece of metal. have that here. It's very simple. I I think I could just live with this in any size. This is a beautifully done design, and I compliment the artist who did this. On number 2, I don't have that feeling. I have a feeling that, you know, okay, this is a lot of information. I don't particularly care for (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 83 the way the lettering works. I think it's distracting to the portrait, so I would reject this piece. And as number 3 comes up, I think Mark Twain looks terribly much like Rhett Butler. I don't feel like he looks like Mark Twain at all here. I like the fact that we do have his signature here, but I don't -- I'm not convinced this is Mark. Number 4, I think the sculpting is going to be difficult because he is such a frontal -it's more frontal that number 1, and I don't think we're going to get a good strike with this piece. It also -- I don't think it has the flamboyance that number 1 has, so I would not prefer this. And I'm going to just skip right over to number 14. I love this because we keep asking for contemporary pieces, and the artist has really addressed that. It's a good representation of the writer, but I think on a nickel-sized coin, it's going to be, again, too much information. Going to the reverse number 1 was my (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 84 first -- my first choice was number 1. I would love to see this because we are asking for contemporary pieces. I think when we did the Marshal's Medal a while back we had some nice silhouetting there. It came out quite lovely, and it is a very acceptable design for the Marshal's piece. For this, there may not have enough integrity, and as some of my colleagues have said, it's maybe too simple, so if we go and skip over to reverse number 3. I like this approach to the imagination of what's going on here. However, I think there's too much information, and therefore, I'm going to go directly to number 5, the steamboat. It is about his life, and if we put this on the back of the obverse number 1, I think we would have a very strong coin. I'm looking at this whole set of coins as being something that you would have -- I think in a collection as something that says something about Mark Twain. I don't really -- I like the paddlewheel, but I don't really think that's a (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 85 good piece for the reverse of that gold coin. Going to the obverse of the silver, incredible, absolutely wonderful. I love the smoke, I love the smoke coming out his pipe, I love the smoke in the background, and I think this is going to work into a beautiful piece. I love the fact that he's so mischievous here. And also we don't have Mark Twain written on here. If we go to a reverse, and use reverse number 14 with the characters and Mark Twain on the reverse in this incredible font, I think we have a winning coin. And I agree with my -- with Mark -- with Gary and with Erik that, you know, we don't need a whole lot of words on here. So my choice would be, you know, 1 and 14 with the silver. I love the frog, Gary, but I'm not sure I like all the words. And to address number 10, and I know that this is -- this level of choice, or her -MS. LOVELL: Not my choice. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I know. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 86 MS. LOVELL: It's not my first choice, though. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: first choice, good. It's not your I think this is a lovely piece, but I don't think it's for our purpose. So thank you, Mr. Chairman. That's all I have. DR. VIOLA: right? Okay, can you hear me all Good. First, I want to say that I'm really impressed with the quality of the creativity of the artwork. There are a lot of people who put a lot of effort into this, and I think we're also very fortunate that we have such an artistic kind of subject, and Mark Twain is just ideal for this kind of work. And so we've left in a couple of periods, and I don't want to repeat everything my colleagues have said, because I think they've really touched all the important bases. I would like to see these coins kind of tell a narrative all the way through, all four (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 87 sides, and so... But much -- for the gold, number 1, the gold obverse I think is just perfect. impish look on his face. I love that I think it'll just pop out on a coin, and so I see no reason to worry about any of the other issues with these portraits. The obverse, you know, I feel it's essential that we have a boat, and the river, as part of this series somewhere, one of the other coins. I mean, you just always associate Mark Twain with the river and the paddleboats. And so whether we put number 5 on the obverse, or you could pick a different one, maybe 8. I'll let that up to the artisan's committee, and people who make these coins, but -- yeah, on the reverse, but could on the reverse. Okay. So as far as I'm concerned that's what the gold would work -- a portrait on number 1, and a reverse of a steamboat where it's, you know, number 5, or if you find some other one. Okay, then the silver, because everyone (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 88 has said you can put a lot more story into the coin, you know, I really rather felt the silver was very whimsical, and so I really like the one of his story on the silver, the obverse number 11. I felt that captured all of what we think about with Mark Twain, but then again, you know, what would be the reverse? And so again, I'd let my committee members have the final say on that. I agree that you may not have to have Halley's Comet, but he often talked about coming in and going out, and he predicted he would go out with that comet, so I kind of feel it somehow should be in there somehow. But anyhow, if we have let's say number 11 as the obverse, then, you know, we could have, let's say number 10, which would be the paddlewheel, which would look very nice on there. So anyhow, my feeling is that we have to have something whimsical for, you know, the silver, which you tell all the storyline. I agree we don't want a building, even though I'm sure (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 89 that would help sales with the folks who have a vested interest in all of this. So anyhow, find something like -- let's see. Okay, let's say, you know, put the number 11 obverse, and the number 10 reverse, and I'm not sure you have to have Freedom. I wouldn't mind having Mark Twain on there, or Samuel Clemens. By anyhow, I think we've got some nice things to work with, and I just defer to the rest of the committee for what they think is best. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Okay. What a huge number of designs, and different ways of looking at Samuel Langhorne Clemens. MS. LOVELL: I'm sorry, I cannot hear. MS. LANNIN: I'm sorry, I'm trying to speak more loudly. Okay. MS. STAFFORD: First of all -Mary, I think you need to bring the microphone much closer. I'm so sorry. These mics are not as sensitive as the ones we've had before. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Gary's sort of an (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 90 anti-comet guy. I'd like to say that I'm an anti- pipe person, and the reason is you can't see this, but everybody go and Google Albert Einstein Pipe, and you're going to find a lot of our choices with a pipe look more like Albert Einstein than Mark Twain. Okay? So that to me eliminates everybody's favorite one of the silver obverses that had the smoke of the pipe coming up, plus the fact I thought the pipe was kind of odd. Okay. I'll go back to gold. absolutely my favorite. This is If I saw a look like that across the room, I'd think that's about the most interesting person in the room. meet him. I would like to I love the mischievous look. In my mind's eye, I think that that is what Mark Twain looks like. I think it'll sculpt beautifully on the gold. I love his eyebrows. He -- I just want to know the next thing that's going to come out of his mouth. I just really really like this a lot. For a reverse for that, again I agree with my colleagues that say when they think of (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 91 Mark Twain, they think of a riverboat, and so what appeals to me is number 5 for the gold. And I have no objections to number 8, although I thought that the epigraphy on that, with life on the Mississippi, was a little too, or maybe that's part of the charm. I like the fact that the boat is coming toward us, which I think Heidi said a little too kind of, saloon door kind of graphics but -- for life on the Mississippi, but I like that very much. Okay. Now, I may do something a little strange for the silver. these side by side. 6 for me, please. When I see these, I see And if you go to gold obverse If you have the two coins side- by-side, you have them looking at each other. It has -- I like the slight swirl for Halley's Comet. We know it's Halley's Comet. There you go. We know that it's Halley's Comet. I believe that that was important to Mark Twain. predicted that he was going to die, and he died He the day after it appeared. It's a little quirk, indulge me in that quirk. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 92 The kind caterpillar eyebrows I'm a little nervous about. I'm sure that a sculptor can do something with that so that we don't wind up with them leaping off the coin at us. Now, to match the silver for the reverse, again, I don't need a frog on a coin. I know some of you guys do, but I don't necessarily need a frog. I thought that one thing that would be interesting on the silver would be either number 7, which has the whimsical boy, and still carries the steamship Mississippi boat theme, or flip it around. gold. I really like the design of the I have number 9. delineated. I like the way that it's I like the E Pluribus Unum as an exergue line with a catfish below it for the silver. I'm sorry I'm making this so difficult for you, Betty. I owe you some chocolate. But I just really -- it's sort of bisected, so on the silver you've got an interesting swirl that represents Halley's Comet, not Haily's Comet, that was Bill Hailey and the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 93 Comets, Halley's Comet on the obverse. And then on the reverse another interesting design, with the exergue saying, E Pluribus Unum. Ugly catfish, but anyway, so that gets to more the whimsical -- the story that we remember. When we think of Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer, that's who I think of when I think of Mark Twain. I don't think of the Jumping Frogs of Calaveras County. I don't think of Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. is simple, it's whimsical. I think that this I think he can do a lot with the expressions on the faces of the characters, and get the hook a little closer to $5.00. I don't know. Okay, that's it. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. MORAN: Go ahead, Mike. Well, I'm the tail on the dog, here, being at the backend of this, and I'm not going to try and wag the dog. In terms of the gold coin number 1, I think says it. I agree with Gary -- or with Erik, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 94 as I went through these and tried to make my selections, that you needed something symbolic of Twain on the gold, and something symbolic of his writings on the silver, because you had a bigger palette, there, with a more complex theme. 1 really gets it -- it's a nice image of Twain. I think on the back, the reverse, it's number 5, the riverboat. After all, it's Mark Twain, so you've got to have the river there. I think one of the things you're having troubles with when you try to look at number 5 on the reverse, and number 8, is that the perspective of the boat, the riverboat on number 8 coming at you is wrong because of the bowline on the boat. It looks like the reverse is going one direction, and the bow of the boat's going the other, the stern and bow. So I can't go with that. Plus, it's entirely too busy for a nickel-sized coin. So I'm going to be 1 and 5 on the gold side. On the silver side, I've got troubles trying to get it all done. I like number 1. think it's a good original design. I I think again, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 95 where we're having troubles with that pipe is the way he's holding it. In fact, that the -- it looks like the mouthpiece is twisted around. I think where we're choking on this is the depiction of the pipe. I'm still going to go with this one, because I don't see how you get away from having Twain's image on the both the obverse of the gold coin, and the silver coin. Where I fall into trouble with this is on the reverse. I think that the obverse 11, and if you'll stop there at 11, that one, probably makes a good reverse, but maybe not on a dollar. Maybe it needs to be on a three-inch metal. There's potentially two much there. So I'm hesitant to put my vote on that one. I also don't like the fact that we're leaving the comet out with -- by going with the obverse number 1 on the silver, but so be it. I think I'm going with the obverse -- or for the reverse of number 14. all done with the man. You can't get it He's very complex, but it gets the themes that he wrote about pretty well in (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 96 there with the exception the Connective Yankee in King Arthur's Court. You've got Huck and Jim on the obverse, but you've got the river pretty well expressed on the reverse. So with some reluctance -- and I could be convinced otherwise -- I'm going to go with 14. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. HOGE: Robert. Thank you. I was impressed with the quality of many of these images as portraits of Mark Twain. I mean, they're extremely excellent examples of drawing that captured his character. On the other hand, these are -MS. LOVELL: again. I'm sorry. I can't hear I'm so sorry. MR. HOGE: I like the quality of these portraits, the drawings, likenesses of Mark Twain. On the other hand, they are drawings, and I think that a lot of what we admire most in these things, we're not going to see on any sculpted surface of the coin, so we have kind of a little bit of problem, I think. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 97 To quickly review these, I, too am attracted by gold obverse variety 1, although I do think that he's got a bit of a Mephistophelian aspect here that I don't recall having seen captured in all of the photographs. In fact, this one kind of stands out with those pointy eyebrows. I wonder about that. I particularly like the portrait on number 2 because this is a profile. A profile is always going to be easier to do, and come out more successfully on the coin than a facing image. The image of number 3, with him holding a book is good, too, but he's the writer of the book rather than an orator, necessarily. The portrait on number 4, I found very good. It looks a lot like of my high school classmates, actually, but... FEMALE SPEAKER: It looks like Sam Elliott, the actor. MR. HOGE: So the portrait of number 5 was really quite an excellent one, too, and I'm really not troubled with the caterpillar eyebrow. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 98 One thing we may want to consider is whether or not the name Mark Twain appears on these. On some, we see that on the obverse and some we don't. So for pairing them, we'll have to think about putting his name on one side or the other, depending on which combination of obverse and reverse we might choose. In number 7, we see a nice portrait with the inscription written in an exergue, and I would prefer this to the loop-de-loop of the Halley's Comet. And I think it is pronounced Hailey, even though it's spelled Halley. FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. HOGE: Are you sure? FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. HOGE: Uh-huh. Halley? FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. HOGE: No, Halley. Okay. Halley. Okay. No, I won't mess with her. But, I prefer the exergue line. And the comet, although in fact he did proclaim that he came in with the Halley's Comet, and thought we (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 99 would -- he reckoned -- he said, "I reckon I'll go out with it," something like that, but it didn't have that much to do with his work. I mean, just at the end of his life he made this observation. I found these portraits very skillful, and I particularly like obverse 14, too, because of the combination of the beautiful portrait, almost a profile. MS. STAFFORD: Mr. Hoge, could I ask you to speak into the microphone, again? MR. HOGE: With the symbolic -- number 14, with the beautiful almost profile portrait of him, combined with a stylized, somewhat symbolic paddlewheel and waves of the river. So I think we have a very nice combination there, although it does have a little bit of a busy aspect with the "In God We Trust" on the lapel, and his name in script, "Mark Twain" in the waves. Nevertheless, I think this probably would work. For the reverses, I think number 1 of the gold reverse has a problem. It could end up being a lot like the Wyoming quarter, which when (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 100 the first roll of these arrived, and the ANA Staff, they delightedly showed me, "Look, we've got a roll that's all errors." that was not the case. Unfortunately, An error to have made them. The reverse number 3 is nice, but probably a little too busy. I particularly like number 5 with the riverboat. This is, as many of us have observed, something of the essence of Mark Twain as the writer who came from this origin. I don't like number 7, the standing portrait on the -- what looks like a jetty of some kind with swirls behind, maybe a snake is approaching, and the figure seems to be out of drawing a little bit, too. I was not particularly attracted by number 9, either. This is the one which I think is very interesting, but it looks like maybe they're in a tree house with a wavy line below it, and who knows what's going on. moon in the background? Is that a sun or a The idea is interesting (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 101 and different, but it's sort of an aquarian view, I suppose. And what kind of fish is that? Is that supposed to be a catfish? FEMALE SPEAKER: MALE SPEAKER: A catfish. MR. HOGE: Catfish. Are they that short? Are they twisted around that much? FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. HOGE: They're just ugly. Well, okay. For the silver, number 1, portrait number 1, I guess we'd have to call this the pipedream version. To me, he looks like a weasel-faced guy in this, and this does not seem to be an accurate portrait of him as I have seen him, and as he's represented in so many of these other images as well. Number 2 and number 3 look to me as though it's Dwight Eisenhower masquerading as Mark Twain with a big wig and false eyebrows and mustache. I particularly liked number 4. I like, again, the profile image with the steamboat in the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 102 background, but I find it too busy. A bit of a fence, and the -- especially the little knight riding over his shoulder, and the frog up in his collar, these are just too much. If we left out all of those minor elements, I think this would be a very effective piece. We see him writing, and you see some of his writing, The Human Race, with its effective weapon. So I'm very attracted to this one, if it could be modified in a number of ways. These images, so many of them are attractive, and it's hard to make selections. Number 11 is interesting for its whimsy, but I think it's just too much clutter. And I don't like to see books with water all over them. I've had some of my antique books get water coming through a floor and soaking them, and this gives me the creeps. Number 14, I thought is one of the most beautiful of all the portraits here. It's so skillfully done, it's almost photo realism. But I wonder if this shading would come out with (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 103 sufficient subtlety, I just don't think so. I think this is an example of an artist thinking in terms of a two-dimensional image, which couldn't be better, but how is it going to translate as a sculpt. For the reverses on the silver, I do like number 1 with the Mark Twain steamboat theme. Not terribly original from -- in comparison to some of the other observations that we've had on past coins, but it's nice. The other images, if you look at number 7, there seems to be a lot of favor for this one, but wait a minute, look at his feet. Now, is there a chimpanzee sitting underneath him with his toes sticking forward? Something about this is just dreadfully wrong. I don't think Huckleberry Finn is known to have been -- or maybe it's Tom Sawyer, but probably Huck -- I don't think he's supposed to have been a club-footed cripple, or with a chimpanzee. Something is a little bit out. I like the idea of it, but the drawing is just kind of messy, and then the fishing pole over the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 104 smoke from the steamboat chimneys. I think it would work if it was redrawn, I'd actually like it that way. Many of the others I think are attractive, too. I see a little bit too much clutter in some of these, but it's hard to decide, it really is. That's it, thanks. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Thank you, Robert. Tom? MR. URAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Being the last one to comment, I want to let the committee know that I am totally prepared to go into great detail on each of these designs. Silence hovers over the abyss. As you know, I'm going to make several comments, and I'm basically, as usual, going to comment as it relates to the ones that I particularly like. And in looking at the planchet, as we've discussed, and there's been talk about by colleagues here, it is a great consideration, and on the gold obverse, I'd to (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 105 look at basically four designs. Number 1, which is terrific; number 3, a little bit too much, I think, for the palette; number 5, I think that that would look great on the planchet as the size that it's going to be. So I'm really looking at number 1 and number 5 as probably the most accurate as it relates to the planchet. But, what I'd like the committee to look at is number 13. Now, what I like about number 13 is taking the boat out. And I think if you took the boat out, and had that image with the signature, I like the signature on the planchet. I think it adds a new look, and I think that look, along with the very similar look of number 1, so I'm between 1 and 3, but if the committee would look at 13 and say, "Let's take the boat out of there," I think it would make for a nice obverse design. Going to the gold reverse, basically, I particularly like number 8, teaming it up with -I realize that there's proportion issues, and things that can be corrected most likely, but I (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 106 think if we're looking at the gold piece being Mark Twain, and that, and then more of an image to the dollar, I think it makes either number 1 or 5, or like I mentioned 13 with that combination makes for a nice combination. Moving on to the silver obverse, I'd like to look at three issues here. Number 1, obviously, has been discussed, and it had pros and cons there. Number 4, I understand the concern regarding all of the -- what's going on there, so I'd probably have to defer to that one. But I like number 11 simply because if on the gold we have his image, and then the 11 -- there we go. If we have the bust image in some shape or form on the gold, and then we have the reverse being what it was describing the Mississippi, the dollar could be, just as a number of the colleagues, Erik and Don have mentioned regarding the different approaches to life, here. Number 11 would make for a great silver dollar image. a great size for that. The planchet is It does have a lot going (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 107 on, but I think the planchet size can handle that, and then teaming up with the reverse of number 10. The reason why I picked number 10 is I think it goes well, if we kept the theme. We don't have his image again repeating on the silver dollar. And even though there are many, many good designs for this coin, I think as a committee, and I certainly take into account, we want to sell these is the bottom line, and if we take into consideration the benefactors' opportunity to be able to sell them, they have to have something that they can also connect with, and be part of, and I think this would be the image for them on that, because if you team those two up, you have two images now, and then on the gold you have Mark's image there. So I like this in the fact that I think we need to just be aware that we need to sell these, and we need to have the benefactor gain in any shaped form that helps them to sell it, and gives them any angle to be able to promote the history behind the commemorative as it stands. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 108 So as a committee, I think yes, we need to be concerned about designs, but we also need to be concerned about giving them the most opportunity to show that particular commemorative So I would be for reverse number 10. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Oh, one other thing I'd like to say, and I brought this up at the last meeting when we were just talking about this, and April and I have kind of discussed it as well. But the packaging for this should really be something a little more like the Teddy Roosevelt packaging, where you can really create a book image, maybe, if you have the two coins, one on one side, and one on the other, and putting it together in a really nice presentation that you could add a lot of these other elements in, whether it be the Halley's Comet, or whatever other image you might want to portray to create the history to be able to really have a marketing item here, and not just the traditional in the box, two coins with the box. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 109 So I would rather see something that's very creative in the promotion of this particular commemorative. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Thank you, Tom. Now we will go the proxy for Michael Bugeja, Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: I'll be brief with Mike Bugeja's comments in relation to what we've already discussed. On the gold obverse, he likes design number 1, but his favorite is number 6. He likes the way the text is stacked, so it gives the maximum space on the design. On the gold reverse, he likes the idea of putting the steamship on the back of this coin. Thematically, and of the two steamboat designs, he likes reverse 5 because it shows the paddlewheel, which is the prime characteristic of this type of ship. On silver obverse, he likes number 14. He is not in favor of any of the designs with text -- additional text on them. And he makes a note that we should be (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 110 careful not to repeat the name Mark Twain in the place of a Samuel Clemens, if we do have repeating of a name. Reverse. On the silver reverse, he likes design number 1 with the paddlewheel representing the Mississippi. That's it. Before I hand over the mic, I want to remind members about our voting technique. Please vote for each design based on its own merit on the 0 to 3. If you think a design is an excellent design, but maybe in the wrong category, you think it would be better silver instead of gold, vice versa, please don't reflect that in your scores. We will work that out afterwards, but give each score based on its own merit. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Thank you, Heidi. There's been a lot of discussion here, and I just want to make sure, before we move on, if there's anyone who has any brief -- and I mean brief -- follow-ups that you're burning to add to the conversation, and it looks like Erik does. MR. JANSEN: I would reiterate Tom's (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 111 comment to the marketing folks at the Mint. I think with the -- one of the goal is great word, storytelling reputation of Mark Twain named, not necessarily the silver and gold together, because that's a price point that probably won't reach the educational oriented demographic, but the silver coin might be really well marketed with a -- with an educational kind of mantra to it. I think it could really highlight the storytelling of the man, and move some more product especially through the organizations that are benefitting from this coin. Thank you. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Thank you, Erik. Anyone else, quickly? MS. LANIN: Gary, I just -- CHAIRMAN MARKS: MS. LANIN: Mary, go ahead. -- one of the designs that I wanted to keep in, which I didn't speak about, the only reason I wanted to keep it in is that it said "Samuel Clemens," and I think it's kind of important that at some point we acknowledge the fact that that's his real name, even though we all (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 112 think of him as Mark Twain. CHAIRMAN MARKS: You know, I guess I take a little bit a different perspective on that, and that is in respect to what Congress directed us to do. When we talk about Mark Twain, we're talking about Mark Twain because that was his pen name, about what he did with his pen. So I think there was a specific intent when Congress told us Mark Twain, and that's my take on it, and maybe it's too literal, but for what it's worth. MR. URAM: Gary, just a comment. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. URAM: Tom. Just a comment regarding the educational side again. That obverse 11 of the silver dollar is just so great as far as trying to obtain Young Numismatists into the collecting world, and the learning side, and educational side. So if you are considering some points to the obverse 11, even though it is busy, it certainly would create some great encouragement for Young Numismatists. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 113 CHAIRMAN MARKS: Anyone else? Thank you, Tom. Heidi? MS. WASTWEET: Just very briefly. While we were talking, I looked up some images of Mark Twain, and that pipe is rather accurate from the pictures that I've seen. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Thank you, Heidi. Anyone else? MS. STAFFORD: Quick question just for -- so our liaison can follow, there's been some discussion today about whether a gold image design might be used as a silver, or an obverse might be used as a reverse. Is there some way that member should denote that on their voting? CHAIRMAN MARKS: No. That's what we've been trying to address throughout the discussion is to encourage the members to evaluate or vote according to the best artwork. And then by doing that, we will identify a group of the best art, if you will, of the batch. Then, once we have identified that group, then we can have discussions about specific (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 114 thematic ideas about gold versus silver, how, you know, the reverses, regardless of denomination, match with the given obverses that were deemed as the best artwork. So I think it's something that will work out by discussion and motion, so -- but to reiterate what Heidi was saying, if we can vote in that way, try to take the $5.00 denomination, and the $1.00 denomination out of your consideration, and just vote for the best art, and then we get to have another discussion after that. So I think that's probably the best way to get at what April was asking about, and ultimately pair up these the way they should be. So with that, I'm going to ask the members to go ahead and vote, and as soon as your tally sheets are completed for Mark Twain, if you would pass those in to Mr. Secretary, Erik Jensen. He will tally that while we take a recess. And when we come back, know that we won't be done with Mark Twain, and we have a bit of work yet to do. So the time right now is 11:51, so in (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 115 approximately 15 minutes, five after, maybe ten after at the most, please be back here at the table and we will reconvene at that time. So for now, we are in recess. MR. SCARINCI: Mr. Chairman, can I just say one thing? CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. SCARINCI: Go ahead. Just as a matter of coolness, since we're here in Portland in conjunction with an A and A show, I just think it's pretty cool that as we're sitting here -- as we're sitting here deciding -- reviewing designs for commemorative coins, there happens to be a seminar in another room talking about marketing commemorative coins of the past. So I just think that's cool, and it's a nice little notation for us doing this here in Portland. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Great observation. We are recessed. (Brief recess.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. We’ve got a (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 116 quorum, and so we’re back in session. results. I have some And you know it’s too bad they’re not here because they’re going to ask me to repeat this. MR. WEINMAN: You gave them warning. CHAIRMAN MARKS: I know that, Greg, but I need -- they’re going to drift in here and then they’re going to not have the benefit of the important stuff that has to happen right now. Please. going to go. go. If they’re not out there we’re Jeanne, stay here. We’re going to We may end up voting without them. Okay, guys. Here are the results. And then I’m going to suggest an approach. Okay. So here are the results. going to start with the gold obverse. I’m And just note that with 10 members present and voting, at a maximum three votes each per design, the maximum possible score is 30. And by committee rule, you have to have a threshold of at least 50 percent plus one to earn a recommendation from the committee. So that would be 16. So any number (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 117 that is 16 or above is -- well, satisfies the threshold. So starting with gold obverse number 1. It received 24 and is our recommended design by vote. 2 received four. 3 received two. 4 received eight. 5 received two. 6 received two. 7 received two. If I don’t say anything about a number, it’s zero. 11 received three. 3 received five. 14 received ten. Moving to the gold reverse. Design 1 received 9. 2 received two. 3 received two. 5 received 20 and is, by vote, our recommended design. Oh, and also I guess there’s some more (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 118 here. 7 received three. 8 received 13. 9 received eight. 7 received -- oh, I’m sorry, 10 received seven. Going to the -- what’s that? MALE SPEAKER: Nine? Eight. CHAIRMAN MARKS: 9 received eight. 10 received seven. Going to silver obverse. Number 1 received 19 and is the recommended design by vote. 2 received one. 4 received four. 5 received three. 7 received two. 10 received eight. 10-A received three. 11 received ten. 13 received one. 14 received 13. Going to silver reverse. Number 1 received six. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 119 3 received one. 7 received 14. 8 received one. 9 received one. 10 received eight. 11 received two. 14 received 14. So now, based on that, we have a tie at 14. Neither one crosses the threshold. So I’m going to suggest an exercise now to help clarify what we want to do here. If you have the designs handy, I’m going to ask you to go to your binders and I’d like you to pull out gold obverse 1. And I’d like us all to be able to see these as a group in front of us. Pull out gold obverse 1, that’s our selected design for gold. one is 14. And the next closest And those are the only two that had a double digit score. So gold obverses 1 and 14. Please pull those out so you can visually see them. I’m giving you a second to accomplish (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 120 that task. 1 and 14. Gold obverses 1 and 14. And when I receive indication that we all have those, I will move on. You got it? Okay. So now if we look gold reverses, the two double digit scores are number 5 and number 8. So pull out number 5 and 8 gold reverse; 5 and 8. You got it all? I’m going to take the time here to make sure we’re all on the same page. Okay. Okay. So now if we look at the silver, we have three double digits here. 1; silver obverse 1. 11. We have number Then pull out silver obverse Silver obverse 14. That’s 1, 11 and 14 silver obverse. I’m watching this. When it looks like we all have those I will continue. Okay. It looks like we all have those. For the final exercise, let’s pull out silver reverse 7 and silver reverse 14; 7 and 14. So you now have all of the double digit scores. My suggestion is that we now attempt to find two obverse designs and two reverse designs, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 121 match them up and, by motion, accomplish our task of recommendations. So take everything else and put it away. Put it away. If it is not one of those numbers I just called out, put it away. Now, let’s take a pause here. still in session. We’re But I’d like to give members a chance to study and think about what’s in front of you. MALE SPEAKER: Gary, I believe the liaison would like to say something. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. While we’re collecting ourselves up, we’d like to hear from the liaison. MS. STAFFORD: MS. LOVELL: Cindy, are you there? MS. STAFFORD: Yes, I am. So Megan and I received an e-mail from you on the break. Would you like to share any of those thoughts with the committee because they are about to go into deliberation? So this might be a good time. MS. LOVELL: Okay. Sure. I’m sorry I (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 122 don’t know when it’s appropriate for me to jump in here or not. And I really appreciate all the hard work that you all are doing. I just -- I had two -- only really two concerns. One is, of course, we all want his likeness to be the very best likeness. And I know that a lot of people like -- for instances, and I think just came up in the double digits. So the number -- it was the silver obverse number 1. mean, it’s a lovely drawing. CHAIRMAN MARKS: little bit? phone? I It’s close. Can you speak up just a Ma’am, could you speak more into the We’re having a hard time hearing you. MS. LOVELL: obverse number 1. Mark Twain. Sure. Sure. The silver It’s not the best likeness of None of the Twain scholars who saw it thought it looked like him. For instance, he did not have an earlobe as depicted there. His earlobes were attached. And the consensus was that he looked more like James Brolin than Mark Twain. So maybe this is something the artist (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 123 can tweak. I just wanted to say that it didn’t make anybody’s vote. They liked the design and the concept, but not the likeness of Mark Twain. And I don’t think any of the others that were our concern came up in the double digits. The other concern that I raised that came -- that we all -- we -- when we talked about it. The concept of Huckleberry Finn and Jim, the runaway slave, this book and that story epitomizes everything we know of Mark Twain and we think of Mark Twain. And, yes, all the other images are great and representative. But I guess I was just surprised that -I know we didn’t have the best choices of images of Huck and Jim together. character. Jim is a very important Without Jim, Huck is just a river rat having a raft ride. But Jim is really the heart and soul of what everything Mark Twain wrote about. And I know the only really good ones that were shown were the -- I think the Mark Twain gold reverse number 2 and 3, at least the ones (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 124 that we discussed them ourselves and we thought really looked like the descriptions in the book. But it didn’t come up as a vote here. So I guess I was just concerned that the one thing we think of with Mark Twain, and his message, and his sermon was this concept of Huck and Jim and somebody doing what was right despite everything against him. It just didn’t come up here at all today. So I was a little concerned about that. I think the other images that you are all looking at are beautiful, and fine, and very representative. And I know it’s too late, really, to go back and say what’s the Huck and Jim. if the images aren’t right for coins -- And and I realize that you have a lot of things to consider, you know, the detail and things like that of what will look good on the coin. So I -- those are the two things. keep a likeness as true to him as possible. To And I hated to lose the story of Huck and Jim in the mix of all of this today looking for the best art. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 125 And I realize you really do have to look for the best art to sell the coin. So with that, I’ll be quiet. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. And, Cindy, I just want to make sure you knew, one of the double digits that the Chair noted was silver obverse 11. And I do believe Huck and Jim are depicted there. MS. LOVELL: Right. And that’s a great choice. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. I just wanted to make sure that you were aware that that they did make an appearance in the ones that the Chair was noting. MS. LOVELL: Yes. MS. STAFFORD: MS. LOVELL: Okay. quiet now. Great. Thank you. Thank you. I’ll be Thank you. MS. STAFFORD: CHAIRMAN MARKS: No, you’re fine. Okay. Now, as we all look at these I want to encourage us, again, to think in terms of a nickel-sized coin which is, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 126 what, about three-quarters of an inch; and an inch and a half Silver Dollar. Let’s think about the devices, and how many there are here, and what’s going to look better on that smaller coin, and what might look a little more -- or have a little more pop if it were allowed to breath more on a larger planchet. Do we all have our thoughts collected? Is there someone who would like to start out? Tom? Tom went last, so I’ll recognize him to go first this time. MR. URAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Based on the comments, obviously, and I’ve spoke highly of obverse 11 for a number of other reasons, and the benefactors, obviously, stated the Huck -- the images here. So I think on a large planchet that that would really translate well. Plus, it’s just a -- it’s whimsical, it’s intriguing. You’ve got the frog on there for the frog lovers in the group. And, you know, I think it would team up well. And I just don’t want to see two -- I (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 127 don’t think I would want to see two images of Mark Twain on the gold and on the silver. I think one image on the gold, that’s where I think that the image of his face should appear. And I think the -- for the lack of better term, the silver should have the story board. So I would be looking at obverse 11 to include what was talked about. And then maybe the reverse could be, whatever, 14 or 7, either of the two choices we’re looking at that I think match well with the design of obverse 11. And the on to the -- do you want to me to do the gold too while we’re at it? CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. URAM: Go ahead. Okay. -- I mean, that’s the image. than number 14. I think number 1 will I think even more so I think number 1 on that size of a planchet of a nickel or so, it’s going to be very striking. It’s clean; the eyes, everything is captured. And then using reverse number 8, even though it might need some adjustments engineering- (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 128 wise on the boat, I think that those two together would work out well. images. So we’re not using two face We’re not using two boat images necessarily. Even though the boat is depicted on both of the reverses of the silver, it’s not the focal highlight. So the focal highlight being the -- on number 7 in particular, the fishing and so forth. So I would be going with the recommendation of number 1 teamed up with reverse number 8 on the gold. And obverse 11 teamed up with 7 or 14 of the silver. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. URAM: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN MARKS: What I’d like to do is get two or three more comments. And then if there’s going to be a motion, let’s start working this out. So I think Michael Moran wanted -MR. MORAN: I’m back to my original issue of number -- the silver 11 obverse which, in my opinion, I’m willing to take a risk on. think it needs to be the reverse. But I And you go that (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 129 way and you’ve got too much using the original number 1 on the silver obverse. And then you go with the image of number 14 on the obverse there which is a good, clean, sharp image of Twain. So that’s where I am on the silver. I think we need to leave the gold alone at 1 and 5. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Who wants to go next? Robert? MR. HOGE: I -- well, I prefer the portrait on number 14 for the gold. number 1 is fine, too. I think And it actually might look better on the small coin because it’s cleaner and less busy. But I really like the look of the paddlewheel. And the portrait, I think, is even better on number 1. For the reverse, I guess our only choice is the steamboat. I would just want to make sure that these steamboats are appropriate to the time period when Twain was working on one in the Mississippi River. I’m not sure exactly what years those were; right around 1855, though, I believe. And I think that at least one of these (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 130 might be of a later vintage. For the silver pieces, I definitely prefer number 14 to number 1. more accurate portrait. I think it’s a much I would prefer number 7, in spite of the drawing problems, to number 14 or number 11 for the reverses on the silver. it’s whimsical. I think It shows a steamboat in sort of a stylized way. And I don’t think that there’s necessarily a problem between having a portrait of Twain on both of the two coins, or a steamboat. They are going to be different images and the portraits will carry different weights depending on the size of the coin and the quality of the drawings. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. Thank you. You know what I’m going to do here, in the interest of time, let’s put some motions on the floor. There’s still time for discussion. talk out the motions. We’re going to But let’s get a motion on the floor. Donald, did you want -- (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 131 MR. SCARINCI: first. Let’s do the easy thing fine. The gold I think -- I think 1 and 5 are Obverse 1 and reverse 5. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Are you making a motion? M O T I O N MR. SCARINCI: So I could make a motion to recommend obverse 1 paired with reverse 5. CHAIRMAN MARKS: reverse. Those are both gold Those are both gold designs, right? MR. SCARINCI: CHAIRMAN MARKS: For the gold coin, yes. So gold 1 obverse and gold 5 reverse -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN MARKS: I second that. -- is the motion. Are you making a motion for just the gold? MR. SCARINCI: CHAIRMAN MARKS: For now, yes. Just the gold. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. Okay. I second that. It’s moved and seconded that we recommend gold obverse 1 and gold reverse 5. Discussion? (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 132 MR. JANSEN: I would say relative to the comment about historical appropriateness, I’m curious if the motion maker would entertain the option of reverse 8 if it turns out to be the most historically accurate. MR. SCARINCI: CHAIRMAN MARKS: Yes. Okay. Is there more discussion? MS. STAFFORD: I would just like to interject, I feel we would need to hear -- for our lead sculptor engraver Don Everhart -- we’d need to hear a little bit more from our liaison regarding obverse 1 about the fixes that would need to happen to it for it to look more like Mark Twain. Just to remind everyone, the first thing she said was that the obverse 1 had slight issues that needed to be addressed. CHAIRMAN MARKS: So I think -- and, Donald, correct me -MS. STAFFORD: CHAIRMAN MARKS: The gold; gold 1. Donald, correct me if I’m wrong, but my assumption is that you would (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 133 presume in your motion that the artist would have leeway to make adjustments as may be appropriate to satisfy maybe the stakeholder groups and so forth. MR. SCARINCI: Absolutely. What I like about obverse 1 is that it’s just clean, simple, and that’s what you need for a small planchet. So, yes. The answer is yes, the artist should do whatever is necessary to make it a more accurate depiction. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. So there’s leeway in the motion. So with that, is there any other quick comments? I’d like to get to a vote. (No response.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: question. Okay. I’m calling the All those in favor of the motion -MALE SPEAKER: Would you read the motion again? CHAIRMAN MARKS: let me do it. That’s what -- please, The motion is we’re pairing gold obverse 1 with gold reverse 5 with leeway to artist to make adjustments. All those in favor, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 134 please raise your hand. (Show of hands.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: Nine. All those opposed. (Show of hands.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: One. The motion carries nine to one. Okay, folks, we have accomplished the gold recommendation. Let’s talk about silver. MR. SCARINCI: I’m not ready to make a motion on this yet, but I want to throw out a thought. What about -- what if we were to use obverse -- on the silver, what if we were to use obverse 1 and then use obverse 11 as a reverse? CHAIRMAN MARKS: Just for my part, I think that would be attractive. MR. SCARINCI: Yes. Pretty looking coin, I think. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. JANSEN: Anyone care to -- Erik? On the silver, I certainly understand the entity’s comments about Twain’s persona in that one. To which I would say my (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 135 favorite obverse on that really -- if it were gold, I would go with obverse 14, the gold obverse 14 for use on the silver. But I think given the larger planchet, I like the silver obverse 14. like the signature there. I I think that’s always an interesting piece to add when you’re trying to personify someone. And I really like the portrait. I’m curious what the client organization feels about the accuracy of the portrait in silver obverse 14. MS. LOVELL: Number 14 of silver obverse I think is a very good likeness. We had good comments about that one all around. MR. SCARINCI: Just to ask a question. When we’re looking at 14, is what you’re reacting to -- and I’m not sure that -- I’m not sure of the answer myself. Iskowitz thing. You know, it’s obviously a Joel So is what you’re reacting to the beauty of the drawing or the design of the coin? Because I think you have to get -- I think you can’t look at the beauty of the drawing and let (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 136 that interfere. And I’m not sure it does. I mean, I like the design -- I like it as well even, you know, when you were blind to the beauty of the drawing. CHAIRMAN MARKS: I’ll take one other comment and then I’d like a motion. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Okay. I’d like to make a comment. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Jeanne. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Seriously, if we use this obverse 14 we’re sort of repeating obverse 1 in gold. And I think it would be nice to have a different -- I really like obverse 1. It has more information. planchet. It has a bigger And I think we should think about the creativity of this particular piece. wonderful. 14 is great too. It’s But if we went with number -- obverse 1 and obverse 11 and take 2016 out of there and put Mark Twain and his signature in that place, I think we would have a good medal -- a good coin. CHAIRMAN MARKS: So you would -- is that (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 137 a motion? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I can make it a motion if you want it. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Let’s put it on the floor and talk. M O T I O N MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Okay. I move that we, for the silver coin, the dollar coin, we use obverse 1, and on the reverse obverse 11, replacing 2016 with Mark Twain’s signature. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. SCARINCI: Okay. It’s been moved. CHAIRMAN MARKS: I will second that. Donald seconds. And that is to recommend silver obverse 1 and silver obverse 11 as a reverse with the inscription changed, of course, as our recommendation. Heidi? MS. WASTWEET: I just want to reiterate that we are judging these on designs, not drawing quality. While silver obverse is an excellent drawing, we will be giving full rein to the artist to make -- whichever one we choose to make it the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 138 best likeness possible and the best quality possible. So let’s focus on the design. I think the motion on the table is a good one. I’m also noticing, as they are, that nothing says Mark Twain. So I like the addition that Jeanne suggested of putting the signature in the place of the date. MR. EVERHART: comment on that. I’d like to make a On the obverse 11 that you want to make a reverse, if you take 2016 out and put Mark Twain’s signature in there, you’re going to have to stack it, because if you run it horizontally it’s going to be so small I don’t think it’s going to read. MR. JANSEN: Stack it in two lines you mean. MR. EVERHART: Yes. MR. JANSEN: Yes. MS. LANNIN: Don, we have “In God We Trust,” on both sides then. So why don’t you take off “In God We Trust,” off of 11 and put Mark Twain curved at the bottom? (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 139 MR. EVERHART: Well, that’s not really how he signed his name in a curve. it on a straight line. He kind of did So I don’t know if you want to take that liberty or not. MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Okay. Gary, you -- CHAIRMAN MARKS: It (indiscernible) the signature too. MR. MORAN: Gary, you got all kinds of problems with the inscriptions when you take 11 and make it an obverse -- a reverse. to redo the inscriptions entirely. You’ve got It’s okay. I’m going to vote for the motion. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. MORAN: -- I just want to -- CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. MORAN: That’s presumed. We’d be giving -- -- clean it up. CHAIRMAN MARKS: -- we would assume that they’d take the leeway needed to accomplish that. Erik? MR. JANSEN: I know this is probably something we haven’t done recently that I recall. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 140 I’m very sensitive to the organization’s comments and concern that the likeness is not accurate. I like obverse 1 as the obverse for the Silver Dollar. Would it be inappropriate for us to go back to the artist and ask him to improve the likeness because we like the general design and art overall? MR. EVERHART: I think if you do that you’d have to tell him specifically what you want to change. In other words, the earlobe is obviously wrong. Other than that, I think then it gets a little murky as to what the characteristics are that are different. MR. JANSEN: group feel about this? What is the stakeholder I want to see what their satisfaction is. MS. STAFFORD: Cindy, we’re talking about silver obverse 1; about how far off it is, so to speak, from a true likeness of Mark Twain. MR. JANSEN: I would not go back and change the earlobe and we’re good to go. That’s (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 141 not my intention here. to the artist. I mean, this is a re-work We love the layout I think. But I’m concerned that the likeness just isn’t there. And I don’t know if that becomes a collaboration with an artist that’s contributing the likeness we do like. I don’t know how to handle this. But I’m concerned that we’re headed down a path that I don’t like. MR. EVERHART: that. Yes. I would agree with We don’t know what we’ll get back. MR. JANSEN: Right. And again, I don’t know how to pull this off because I’m not amongst the artists, and the relationships, and the compensation; blah, blah, blah, blah. But, quite frankly, I’m very tempted to say, give me the layout of 1 and the likeness of 14. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Isn’t there enough leeway here that if we recommended number 1, we could do it with an assumption that Mint staff will do whatever it takes to kind of bring all the pieces together so that the stakeholder group is (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 142 satisfied that it looks appropriate and so forth? MR. EVERHART: Again, I’d really like to know specifically what the objections are to the portrait other than the earlobe. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Well, I guess that’s what I’m suggesting is you’d be working with the stakeholder group to say, Here’s an amendment to this design. Does this look more like Mark Twain? MS. STAFFORD: Perhaps what we could do is to, yes, chase this rabbit so to speak, and hopefully we will be successful. And, of course, our stakeholder, the liaison, would be the one that would ensure that we had the likeness the way that it needed to be. And we would lean on Don Everhart to ensure that we’ve captured that essence that is being displayed in obverse 1 that this committee is drawn to. If we can’t get there, perhaps we would -- could have a secondary recommendation from this committee in the event that neither the liaison or the esthetic of this coin does not translate. Because it is true, this is what the artist came (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 143 to the table with. And the job was to make it Mark Twain. And given the concerns of the liaison, we just wouldn’t want 100 percent be able to say it’s guaranteed. CHAIRMAN MARKS: The difficulty I think I see is that, given the gold obverse that we’ve recommended, if we do anything other than number 1 on silver, we end up with either 14 silver or 14 gold; both the right facing semi-profile image. It looks like a lot like number 1, especially when you take out all the shading and make it silver. It almost looks like the -- very close to the same idea except one he is holding pipe and one he’s not. And the other dilemma is obverse 11, which came out double digit with a score, if we pair that with any of these reverses there’s a lot of repetition going on; either reverse 7 silver or reverse 14 silver. So kind of a dilemma here. I’m in the school that says we need to go with the one that (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 144 we believe, from a design point of view, is most appropriate. And if there needs to be adjustments made, that’s what the Mint’s there to do. Donald? MR. SCARINCI: Well, Bob Hoge said something earlier that’s really kind of true. I mean, at the end of the day does it matter that the -- that the two will have similar facing portraits? Because the audience, you know, other than people like me and Tom and, you know, a few people here, you know, the audience for this -there’s going to be people who buy the dollar and don’t buy the gold. And the two are -- yeah, they’re in the set but they’re also sold separately. So does it really matter? CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. You know what, time to vote -MR. EVERHART: I have a suggestion. Before we go any further, I have a suggestion on that. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. EVERHART: The motion on -Just one suggestion on (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 145 obverse 14. What if we flopped the portrait? MALE SPEAKER: Could you do that? MR. EVERHART: Sure. MALE SPEAKER: Oh, really. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. Then you know what, we need to -- we have a motion on the table we need to act on. But if it fails, then we can maybe look at this idea that Don just shared with us. So the motion is -- well, actually, Erik, would you like to read the motion? MR. JANSEN: Regarding design selection for the Mark Twain Silver Dollar, as the obverse to recommend design MTS-0-01. And as the reverse MTS-0-11 replacing the inscriptions and adjusted as appropriate with the addition of the Twain signature where the date exists currently. CHAIRMAN MARKS: the motion. Okay. So we’ve heard All those in favor please raise your hand. (Show of hands.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: One, two, three. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 146 Opposed? (Show of hands.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: Seven opposed. Motion fails three to seven. Okay. I need another motion. M O T I O N MR. SCARINCI: I move to do it Don’s way on the obverse and keep the reverse that we talked about. CHAIRMAN MARKS: So your motion is to flip the portrait on silver obverse 14 to a left facing image, pair it with obverse 11 used as a reverse with inscriptions changed. MS. LANNIN: I second. CHAIRMAN MARKS: It’s been moved and seconded. MALE SPEAKER: Who was the second? FEMALE SPEAKER: Mary. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Discussion, Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: limb; way out. I’m going to go out on a If we do obverse 14 and simply flip it, it’s still going to be repetitious of the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 147 gold obverse. And it’s going to lack the creativity that we’ve all voiced that we like about obverse 1. We are all clearly in favor of the creativity of 1. 14. And we like the drawing of It’s unfortunate that we can’t marry the two, but we do have a staff of qualified, talented sculptors in house. And I think it is their responsibility to take this design and make it the quality that it needs to be. Because we are looking at the idea of silver obverse 1 that is what we like. It’s the designs, the ideas, the concept. If we go with silver obverse 14, we’ve lost all that creativity that we so have been asking for. How many times have we sat at this table and asked, again, and again, and again we want creativity. We don’t want just a bust on this coin. I don’t care how well it’s drawn. want creativity. I And if we bypass this, then all that we’ve said is meaningless. And I think that we should put the responsibility on our sculptors (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 148 to make this design as good it needs to be. MR. JANSEN: I would really back those comments up. CHAIRMAN MARKS: As a member and not the Chair, I totally agree with what Heidi said. MR. MORAN: Isn’t that the motion we just voted down? MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: Yes. actually. And can I be a -- Not actually. Not The motion we voted down was to take image 1 and 11 as is, essentially changing the devices and not the design itself. CHAIRMAN MARKS: The motion on the table is for obverse 14 flipped -- if you really want to see it, take it and hold it up to the light backwards -- paired with obverse 11 used as a reverse with inscriptions changed. That’s the motion. MR. SCARINCI: Can I offer the counterpoint to what Heidi said? that Heidi and I don’t agree. It’s very rare But, you know, what we would then be -- I don’t think we can go back (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 149 to the Mint -- or to the artist and say that because at the end of the day, yes, we love the cute little smoke thing. And the artist -- you know, the artist needs to be told absolutely that would have been the design we selected. However, the portrait was inaccurate. And if the portrait was inaccurate, I mean, there’s no -- you know, to go back to that same artist and suggest that they do a more accurate portrait. You know -- yeah, but it’s -- I don’t know that -- can the sculptor do that, Heidi? I mean you’re changing the design completely. I mean, we’re -- like we’re making a different -- it’s not really the artist’s design. The artist’s design is this. face. Same pose, different Different quality. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. all aware of the issue here. this one out. I think we’re It’s time to vote Again, we’re looking at obverse 14 flipped, paired with obverse 11 used as a reverse with inscriptions changed. All those in favor of that pairing as (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 150 our recommendation, please raise your hand. (Show of hands.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: I count three. All those opposed. (Show of hands.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: Looks like seven. that motion fails three to seven. So We need another motion, folks. MR. JANSEN: So is the question really, that is, is the motion that’s being asked for to essentially take the design of obverse 1 and correct its likeness? Is that really what the committee is going to approve here, folks? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. JANSEN: Yes. I’m looking for a motion that will pass, not another motion. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Okay. I’m going to make this motion again. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Robert. Robert. M O T I O N MR. HOGE: What if we use -- I propose a motion that we accept obverse 14 flipped combined (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 151 with reverse 7. That would give us the element of the boy with fish and the -CHAIRMAN MARKS: Is there a second? Second to that motion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: I think that motion dies for lack of a second. I need a motion. Heidi. M O T I O N MS. WASTWEET: My motion will separate the obverse and reverse. So my motion is to vote silver obverse 1 with the leeway of dialing in the likeness and then we’ll make a second motion on the reverse. MR. JANSEN: Second. CHAIRMAN MARKS: That motion is moved and seconded to recommend obverse 1 -- silver obverse 1 for the Silver Dollar. MR. JANSEN: With the leeway to -- give me the verbiage you like, Heidi. CHAIRMAN MARKS: To dial in the likeness. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 152 MR. JANSEN: As example, perhaps, another design? MS. WASTWEET: No. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. JANSEN: Okay. CHAIRMAN MARKS: comments? No, just to dial it in. Okay. Any quick I think we’re getting very familiar with this issue. (No response.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. All those in Five. Herman, did you favor, raise your hand. (Show of hands.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: raise your hand? MR. VIOLA: What are we voting on here? CHAIRMAN MARKS: 1; just number 1. We’re voting on number And we’re going to have to come back to a reverse design. Okay. So raise the hands in favor of the motion. (Show of hands.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: I get six. Opposed? (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 153 (Show of hands.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: Four. Motion carries. We have a recommended obverse design. We need a reverse. M O T I O N MR. URAM: My motion would be to use obverse 11. MR. VIOLA: Second. CHAIRMAN MARKS: It’s been moved to use -- the motion is to use obverse 11 as a reverse design with appropriate inscription changes. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. JANSEN: Seconded. I would be curious if the mover would explicitly want to replace the date with a signature. Do you agree to that amendment to your motion and second? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: signature. You could move the You can move the signature to the bottom. MR. URAM: bottom. Yeah, you can move it to the However, the (indiscernible). CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. Yes. So we’d be (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 154 replacing the date “2016.” MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN MARKS: Yes, exactly. We’d be removing -- remove “2016” and in that space put the signature in stacked fashion? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN MARKS: No. MALE SPEAKER: No? I think (indiscernible) “In God We Trust” (indiscernible) it's already on obverse 1, which was (inaudible). CHAIRMAN MARKS: Well, you know, I thought -MR. URAM: I think you’d have to leave it up to the -CHAIRMAN MARKS: that ground. I thought we covered We’re going to change all the inscriptions as appropriate for a reverse design. MR. URAM: Right. “Liberty” isn’t necessary. Right. So actually, “2016” is not necessary. CHAIRMAN MARKS: No. That all goes away because those are all obverse inscriptions. And (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 155 we would -- instead we’d have “United States of America,” “One Dollar,” and “E Pluribus Unum.” And we have -- I think we just put that in the hands of the Mint to figure out where those go. MR. URAM: That will be fine. And then the main thing being the signature. MALE SPEAKER: MR. URAM: And do what? Adding the signature would be the way to go. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. URAM: Okay. So... As they find appropriate. CHAIRMAN MARKS: And the seconder agrees to all of that? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN MARKS: Yes. So all the inscriptions -- the inscriptions are “United States of America,” “One Dollar,” “E Pluribus Unum,” and the signature of Mark Twain in a stacked fashion. MR. HOGE: here. Can I make an observation I may have been out of order. I’m sorry, can I make an observation? If we go with reverse 11, the knife (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 156 would have to be reversed because he’s holding a lance in his left arm and his reins in his right hand which is incorrect. MR. JANSEN: design. We’re not reversing the We’re using it as the reverse of the coin. MR. HOGE: It will change the (indiscernible). MR. JANSEN: Oh, because he’s back -- he’s incorrect as drawn. MR. HOGE: MR. JANSEN: Right. Can we make that separate motion if this motion passes? MR. URAM: And then the other thing, Gary, is it doesn’t have to be stacked. It would be left up to the artist as you originally said. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. I’m having a pre-senior moment not understanding it. Okay. So Erik, I’m going to ask you, since I don’t understand the motion, that you would please read it. MR. JANSEN: The motion by Tom and (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 157 seconded by Herman as follows. So make sure, gentlemen, that this is what your motion should be. Regarding the reverse design selection for the Mark Twain Dollar, we suggest MTS-0-11 as the reverse design selection with appropriate device modifications including “USA,” “One Dollar,” “E Pluribus Unum,” and the date replaced with Twain’s signature in a stacked fashion. MR. URAM: I don’t think “stacked” is necessary because it was already covered under what the Chairman had already addressed. MR. JANSEN: MR. URAM: Thank you. I accept that. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. patiently explained it to me. Heidi has I now understand. So thank you very much. So I think we all -- I hope we all understand the motion now. We would take silver obverse 11, use it as a reverse with all of the changes as described. And we will be pairing that we our recommended obverse 0-1. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 158 All those in favor, please raise your hand. (Show of hands.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: Nine. Opposed? One. The motion (Show of hands.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: carries nine to one. And we have completed our work for the Mark Twain Program. I want to thank everybody for your -MR. MORAN: Not yet. We’ve got two issues we have to talk about. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Moran. Moran. M O T I O N MR. MORAN: We need -- on the Gold Coin we do not have the words, “Mark Twain.” And I would suggest that we put them on -- I would move that put the signature of Mark Twain on the obverse of the Gold Coin in place of the date and drop the date into a smaller font below the signature of Mark Twain. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Is that a motion? (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 159 MR. MORAN: That’s a motion. MS. LANNIN: I’ll second. MALE SPEAKER: That’s the obverse of the Gold? MR. MORAN: Yes. MS. LANNIN: I am seconding. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. We’re giving Erik a chance to get this recorded. So stand by. And then we’re going to get to lunch, folks. MR. JANSEN: So if I have this correct, regarding the obverse of the Gold design, comma, replace the date with a signature and date. MR. MORAN: Yes. MR. JANSEN: With the signature on top of the date. MR. MORAN: Yes. MR. SCARINCI: Before there’s a second to that, can we just give them latitude to put the signature wherever it -- wherever it works. MR. MORAN: I’m willing to amend my motion, Donald, to do just that if you like. Add the signature to the obverse. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 160 MS. LANNIN: I still second. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. MORAN: Okay. We still have a second. CHAIRMAN MARKS: see if I get it right. The motion -- let me The motion is to add the signature, Mark Twain, as -MR. MORAN: To the obverse, period. CHAIRMAN MARKS: To the obverse of gold 0-1 -MR. MORAN: Yes. CHAIRMAN MARKS: -- at the discretion of the artist. MR. MORAN: Yes. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. MORAN: Yes. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Mary was the second. Yes. Okay. Okay. And, Tom -- no, All those in favor, raise your hand. (Show of hands.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: It looks like nine. Oh, it looks like it’s unanimous. It’s a unanimous vote. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 161 MR. MORAN: First one. Second motion. In view of the -CHAIRMAN MARKS: Please go. M O T I O N MR. MORAN: In view of the fact that the Mint is on a track record of -- a winning track record of innovation, starting with the Baseball Coin, which I thought was going to be a big failure, the texture in the Marshal's Coin, the proposed -- the anticipated High Relief Gold Coin and Silver Medal, I move that we recommend the Mint using incuse design on the Mark Twain Gold Coin; obverse and reverse. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. JANSEN: MR. URAM: Are you seconding? I heard a second. I second. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Tom. Okay. I think we’re all familiar with the Five Dollar Gold Indian. MR. MORAN: Yeah. CHAIRMAN MARKS: That’s what we’re talking about. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 162 MR. MORAN: Exactly. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. MORAN: Okay. Sunken relief. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. MORAN: Cast relief. Yes. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. have -- let’s vote this out. I’m going to I think we all know what it is. All those in favor, raise your hand. (Show of hands.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: I see four hands. Opposed? MALE SPEAKER: No, five hands. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Robert, are you with them? (No response.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. I see five Okay. I’m going to hands. (Laughter.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: call you as one of theirs. That’s five. All those opposed to the motion. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 163 (Show of hands.) MR. MORAN: Split. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MS. WASTWEET: I see four. Yes? I’d like -- CHAIRMAN MARKS: You’d like to hear from Don first. MR. EVERHART: You know, when we looked at the Code Talkers and somebody suggested that the figure on the left side be incused, I understood that. I got what that meant. But to do this on this coin, I’m not sure what the point is. I mean, to incuse for the sake of incusing? I don’t know what it’s -- the statement you’re making by that. MR. JANSEN: That’s why I voted no, is because it’s just not clear to me. MR. EVERHART: meaning. I mean, it should have If you’re going to incuse something it should be in contrast to some other element, I would think, on the coin that is, you know, it makes a statement. But just to make it incused for -- just because we want to incuse it to me (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 164 doesn’t make sense. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. (Laughter.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: know what the motion is. Let’s revote it. We MALE SPEAKER: All those in favor. Can you restate the motion? CHAIRMAN MARKS: The motion is to incuse the designs on the Gold Coin. MR. MORAN: I’ll just simplify things and withdraw the motion. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Does the second withdrawn? MR. URAM: Yes. CHAIRMAN MARKS: We’re recessed. (A lunch recess was taken.) A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N (1:42 p.m.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: session. Okay. We are back in And the first item on our agenda for the afternoon is discussion on Resolution 19 -- or, I’m sorry, Resolution 2015-01 which involves the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 165 Liberty Coinage -- The Circulating Coinage Resolution. DISCUSSION OF THE LIBERTY COINAGE RESOLUTION CHAIRMAN MARKS: And I’m going to recognize Michael Moran here in just a moment. I’ll just first say that if there is a Holy Grail in American numismatics, it’s the idea that Liberty would come back to our circulating coinage. And it’s something that I know I’m not alone in the world of coin collecting to wish that that would be something that could happen. I’ve been collecting now for over 40 years, and that entire time that’s been a dream of mine. And to think that that could come about now would just be fabulous. And so I’m kind of tickled at the point that we’re even as far as we are with legislation such that’s being put together to support the program that we’ve recommended. And it all started back in 2008 when we were -- the then CCAC was sitting in the conference room on the 8th floor of the Mint (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 166 headquarters in Washington, D.C. And we were thinking about recommendations for our next annual report. And someone made a comment that Liberty is not going to come back because we have the Presidents. And that’s when the idea, inspiration, whatever you want to call it came to me. Well, why don’t -- why can’t both co-exist and just issue both Presidents and Liberty at the same time. It then became a recommendation in our annual reports; it has been since. Last year, it was introduced into the last Congress as a bill. We didn’t get very far. However, I know that Michael Moran and others are now working on that issue in the new Congress. And I’d like to recognize Michael now to address the resolution that’s in front of us which recommends this program. MR. MORAN: So Michael. Thank you, Gary. When we were in Washington in January, some of us went over and met with Representative (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 167 Barr and also Representative Murphy to talk about this issue. I had had earlier conversations with Representative Barr about reintroducing it into this Congress and seeing where we could get it this time. The conversations that night were very fruitful, very optimistic. And my follow on conversations have been just as optimistic. Now, by that, I don’t mean to say that this thing is (indiscernible) by absentia. It is not. It just means that it -- we have -- it will go more than what it did the last time around. And hopefully we can get it out and get a vote on it. But I’m not quoting any odds on it whatsoever. It’s in their hands and we’re here to advise them in terms of how they go forward and that’s it. The resolution itself is very close to what it originally was when we passed it in 2013. We’ve streamlined it because there was some terminology in there regarding Liberty Medals as well and we’ve already dealt with that. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 168 The one thing that we did do is to take another look at the economics -- the seigniorage that results from the increase in numismatic collecting activity associated with these various Liberty designs on the dime, quarter and half dollar. And the numbers that were compelling before are even more compelling now because of the fact that the volumes are much higher coming out of the Mint which has reduced their unit cost of production for these coins. difference. That’s what makes the We did not assume any increased collecting activity; just the same level as we did in 2013. So to refresh your memory just a little bit on this, we’re calling for alternating Liberty designs on our dime and our quarter starting with the dime in the first year. And a different Liberty design on the quarter in the second year. Back to the dime in the third year with another different Liberty design. And that these would circulate concurrently with the existing (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 169 Presidential designs. And they would be limited to no more than 50 percent. So that’s the concept that this resolution embodies. And other than that, I think that it’s pretty straightforward. I assume everybody read it before they got here. M O T I O N MR. MORAN: And I move that we pass the resolution. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. It’s moved. Is there a second? MR. JANSEN: Second. MS. LANNIN: Second. CHAIRMAN MARKS: been moved and seconded. I recognize Erik. It’s Is there discussion? (No response.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: Hearing none, all those in favor, please raise your -- oh, wait, Erik? MR. JANSEN: I would just like to add that this idea -- I don’t think it’s new to the committee. However, even in the clippings service that came out today, this morning, from the Mint, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 170 we had another example of an independent, unrelated, as far as I know, entity out there in the collecting community saying, Seriously, Liberty? Well, yeah, let’s get it on coins. So even today that’s coming from independent voices around here. And I sense that this is a -- within the numismatic community, an increasingly no-brainer theme. And I think we stand in a position to be a leadership in driving that idea out there even as it gains momentum on its own. Thank you. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Thank you, Erik. All those in favor, please raise your hand. (Show of hands.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: That is unanimous. Thank you very much. The next item is a resolution recommending a commemorative program for 2019 for Apollo 11. RESOLUTION RECOMMENDING A COMMEMORATIVE PROGRAM FOR 2019 FOR APOLLO 11 (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 171 CHAIRMAN MARKS: quick history on this. And I’ll just offer a I believe it was March of last year when Mike Olsen was still a member of the committee. He brought it up that it would be an obvious pick for a 2019 Commemorative Program. The committee unanimously supported that idea at the time. It made its way into our annual report. And now there may be an opportunity to have this may be introduced as a Bill. And so I know that Mike and others are now working in that direction. And it’s timely if this is something that we believe is as obvious as I think it is, that this would be something that we could easily pass and I would ask that we would do so unanimously. So are there any comments about the Apollo 11 Commemorative Program for 2019? By the way, that’s the 50th anniversary of the moon landing. So is there -- are there any comments? MR. URAM: I would just say -- MS. STAFFORD: Could I please ask you to speak into the microphone? Several of our -- the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 172 folks who are on the phone can’t -- are having trouble hearing us. Thank you. (Telephone ringing.) MR. URAM: The phone is ringing. (Laughter.) MR. URAM: My congressman -- (Telephone playing recorded message.) MR. URAM: In working through this with Mike and so forth -- there we go. My Congressman is Congressman Tim Murphy in one of our districts. Part of his district is a community called Moon Township. And he said it would be a great place to also announce the Apollo Commemorative. So we’ve been in close contact with his office as well. M O T I O N MR. URAM: I’d be happy to make a motion to accept the resolution. CHAIRMAN MARKS: resolution 2015-02. MR. HOGE: It is moved to pass Is there a second? Second. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Robert second’s the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 173 motion. CHAIRMAN MARKS: And by the way, a copy of the resolution was passed out for all of you so you can see what it is. It’s less than a page. It’s pretty straightforward. So it calls for a Five Dollar Gold Coin, a Silver Dollar, and a clad Half Dollar. So unless there is other discussion, I’ll call the question. All those in favor, please raise your hand. (Show of hands.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: Thank you very much. That’s unanimous. The motion passes. That takes us to the next item on our agenda which is a review and discussion of candidate designs for the Monuments Men Congressional Gold Medal Program. REVIEW AND DISCUSSION OF CANDIDATE DESIGNS FOR THE MONUMENTS MEN CONGRESSIONAL GOLD MEDAL PROGRAM CHAIRMAN MARKS: I would like to ask April Stafford for a report. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 174 MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Can I just check, are our liaisons with Monuments Men on the line? MR. EDSEL: Yes, we are. MS. STAFFORD: and Christy Fox. Okay. It’s Robert Edsel And if it’s okay with you, Mr. Chairman, I’m going to ask them to make their comments first and then I’ll read the background of the legislation. So Mr. Edsel, would you please say a few words to the committee? MR. EDSEL: Sure. Well, we’re certainly very honored to have been consulted so actively by the people at the Mint on this design. These Monuments Men and Women are a remarkable group of people that have served civilization in remark -in really distinguished and noble ways; soldiers, of a new kind, charged with saving rather than destroying. And it’s been a difficult and challenging task here for the artist and they’ve done an exceptional job with this broad variety of options that have been presented. But we feel very strongly about the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 175 recommendations of MMCGM-06 obverse and CGM-08 reverse for the reasons that they, I think, best encapsule this extraordinary service of these of these men and women over a period of almost seven or eight years in Europe locating and returning some five million objects stolen by Hitler and the Nazi’s and helping jump start the cultural lives in these countries. It was an incredible performance on their part under the leadership of General Eisenhower representing the Western Allies. And trying to capture an endeavor that is part of such an epic period, World War II, trying to encapsule what these men and women did, given the vastness of the geography involved; the very few number of men and women in military service doing this, and the importance of what they did is a difficult task to try and come up with one or two icons to captivate that service. But I think that the two submissions which I mentioned earlier best do that and describe what these men and women did, what was (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 176 hanging in the balance, and the importance of their service and the success of it, and the lasting legacy that it’s left all of us around the world that so many of these works of arts survived and were returned to the countries to whom they belong. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Can I ask, Mr. Edsel, what were the two recommended or preferred designs? MR. EDSEL: MMCGM-06 obverse and MMCGMR-08 reverse. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MS. STAFFORD: And, Thank you. Thank you very much. Mr. Edsel, the committee will likely come back to you with questions as we go through the designs. MR. EDSEL: Sure. MS. STAFFORD: background. So just a little bit of It’s Public Law 113-116 that authorizes the Secretary of the Treasury to strike a Congressional Gold Medal in honor of, collectively, the Monuments Men in recognition of (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 177 their heroic role in the preservation, protection and restitution of monuments, works of art, and artifacts of cultural importance during and following World War II. Bronze duplicates will be struck and made available for sale to the public. There were no required inscriptions specified by the legislation. Recommended inscriptions include “Monuments Men,” for the obverse and “Act of Congress 2014,” for the reverse. We will review twelve obverse and nine reverse designs for the Monuments Men Recognition Congressional Gold Medal. And you’ve already talked to our liaisons, Mr. Robert Edsel, Chairman of the Board at the Monuments Men Foundation, and Christy Fox, Executive Vice President, also at the Monuments Men Foundation. So we’ll start with the obverses. All of the candidate obverse designs carry the recommendation inscription, “Monuments Men.” Obverses 1 and 2 feature empty frames representing the vast amount of art looted by the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 178 Nazis during World War II. Art work depicted represents cultural objects located and restored to their proper, private owners and museums by the Monuments Men. Both designs bear the inscription, “Monuments, Fine Arts, and Archives Program.” Obverse 1 carries the additional inscription, “Perseverance in Preserving and Protecting Civilization’s Cultural Treasures During World War II.” So here is obverse 1. And obverse 2. Obverse 3 depicts an empty frame symbolizing looted art with an inscription that reads, “Stewards of Cultural Treasures in the Midst of World War II.” Obverse 4 portrays a soldier unveiling a framed work of art while his right hand holds a weapon. The frame represents the visual arts with its carved design of a lyre, quill and scrolls representing the musical and literary arts. Together they symbolize the diverse groups of materials recovered. The inscription reads, “Monuments, Fine Arts, and Archives Program.” (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 179 Obverse 5 depicts a group of soldiers handling and cataloging some of the artistic treasures they were responsible for saving. Obverse 6, the liaison preference for our obverse, features soldiers in action, busy lifting and removing the objects from inside a cave or mine; locations where Monuments Men discovered stolen works. The artwork depicted represents major works of historic significance recovered by Monuments Men. Obverse 7 is a variation of obverse 6. Additionally, depicts a soldier carrying a vase in the foreground. Obverse 8 depicts an allegorical victory with a bugle, rolled paintings and manuscripts, symbolizing recovered cultural treasures. The column represents the fortification of the movable structures while the eagles overhead symbolize military aircraft; a reminder that the Monuments Men carried out their mission in the midst of a World War. Obverses 9 and 10 both symbolically (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 180 represent the broad range of art and artifacts that were recovered and preserved by the Monuments Men: Paintings, drawings, literature, music, architecture and jewelry. Obverse 9 depicts a pen, paint brush, palette knife, books, sheet music, a compass, and a pediment. They are encircled by a pearl and diamond necklace. Obverse 10 frames a pen, chisel, paint brush and a book with musical notation in the background. Both designs carry the inscriptions, “Preserve, Protect and Restore.” Here is obverse 9. And 10. Obverse 11 depicts a recovered work of art superimposed over a spirographic illustrating the Golden Ratio, which is a formula used to achieve beauty and balance in art and architecture. The inscriptions read, “World War II,” “To Save the Heritage of Our Civilization,” and “Act of Congress 2014.” Obverse 12 represents some of the thousands of works of art looted by Nazi forces placed around an inscription reading, “Stewards of (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 181 Cultural Treasures in the Midst of World War II.” Moving on to our reverses. Reverse 1 depicts a storage room of paintings, sculpture and manuscripts looted by Nazi forces. The inscriptions read, “Supported by Allied Command, The Western Allies Work Together for Protection, Preservation and Restitution of Cultural Treasures,” and “Act of Congress 2014.” Reverse 2 portrays a work of art preserved by the Monuments Men now displayed on the walls of a museum. The wooden frame represents the visual arts with its carved depiction of a lyre, quills and scrolls symbolizing the musical and literary arts. The inscription reads, “Heritage Preserved for Future Generations,” and “Act of Congress 2014.” Reverse 3 frames the inscription, “Honor to Those Who Saved the World’s Artistic Culture.” This design could optionally feature raised or incused text and “heritage” could be substituted for the word, “culture.” Reverse 4 symbolizes the treasures saved (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 182 by the Monuments Men representing music, visual arts, literature, and symbolized by a butterfly, unique collections plundered by the Nazis. The inscriptions read, “Art is the Visible Evidence of the Activity of Free Minds,” and “Act of Congress 2014.” Reverses 5 and 6 list the names of some of the most notable creators of western cultures’ treasures whose works were rescued by the Monuments Men. Reverse 5 portrays hands symbolizing the passing on of these works to future generations; while reverse 6, adds a soldier’s profile and silhouette representing the Monuments Men. Both designs carry the additional inscription of, “Preservation, Protection, Restitution,” and “Act of Congress 2014.” Reverse 7 similarly lists the names next to the Golden Mean and the inscriptions, “Protection, Restitution, Discovery,” and “Act of Congress 2014.” Reverse 8, the liaison’s preference, and reverse 8-A, feature the aforementioned names (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 183 superimposing, “Act of Congress 2014,” and General Dwight D. Eisenhower’s quote, “It is Our Privilege to Pass On to the Coming Centuries, Treasures of Past Ages.” Mr. Chairman, that concludes the designs. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Thank you, April. For the folks from the Monuments Men Foundation who are on the phone, I think we -- I think Mr. Edsel was on the phone back -- I think it was last summer when we had the thematic discussion about this program. But before I launch into our review of the designs, I wanted to cover some ground that we usually try to cover when we start a review of this sort. And that is just to make the folks who are listening in aware of this committee and what its charge is from Congress. And this committee is put together with an amazing assortment of people. When Congress envisioned the committee, they decided that it would appropriate if, on such a committee to (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 184 review and make recommendations about coins and medals that would represent our nation, that there should be a number of experts on the panel. One of those experts is someone who’s experienced in metallic arts. Another is a person who is especially qualified in numismatic and the whole coin collecting realm; another person in numismatic curation. U.S. history. We have another expert in We have some representatives of the Congress itself. And then also representatives from the public. And many of these people, whether they have a specialty in numismatics, share a passion for it. And that’s something that many of us have been involved in for some time and on this committee even for collectively many, many years. And I cover this ground because, you know, we may reach the end of our discussion here today and totally agree with the preferences of the Foundation. However, we may not because it’s not our job and Congress didn’t envision that it would be our job to simply take whatever (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 185 recommendation was made to us and say, Yeah, that’s it. There have been times that it was obvious that what the affinity group wanted was something that was a good representation of what we were trying to convey; and sometimes not. So I just wanted to cover that ground. Unfortunately, we’ve had a couple of instances in the past where people have left our meetings disturbed that we didn’t pick exactly what they wanted us to. On one point, I’ll note that we’re simply a recommendation. And, ultimately, it’s the Secretary of the Treasury who decides these matters. But then, also, Congress went to the effort to form us so that they would have the assurance that a panel of experts -- and I believe some of -- not myself, but some others on this committee are the best our nation has to comment on some of these issues. So with that, I’d like to move on to the actual evaluation portion of our review. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 186 And the first part of that would be to seek out any questions members might have of a technical nature bearing on any of these designs. Jeanne, do you have a question? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes. My question is, is it imperative to have anything more than “Monuments Men” on this medal? Do we have to have any more information on the, you know, like on the obverse. Some of these are minimal and some of these are, you know, have a lot more information. Like 1 has a lot of information and number 6 just has “Monuments Men.” Is that okay? Is that what we’re looking for? CHAIRMAN MARKS: I’m not clear. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Okay. I want to know on the text -- on the text of the medal, is there an importance to have anything more than “Monuments Men” on that coin? MS. STAFFORD: There are no required inscriptions. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. STAFFORD: Okay. We recommended the artist (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 187 use “Monuments Men.” Congress 2014.” And for the reverse, “Act of But artists were also allowed to bring their own additional inscriptions. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Okay. Interpret that. MS. STAFFORD: Yes. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: you. That’s my question. Thank Thank you. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. HOGE: Thank you. Robert. Yes. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Robert Hoge, member of the committee. MR. HOGE: related. My question is somewhat Are -- some of the reverses I noticed lack the words, “Act of Congress.” And on congressional medals isn’t that one of the requirements? MS. STAFFORD: MR. HOGE: It’s not? MR. WEINMAN: MR. HOGE: It’s not a requirement. Okay. Nor are they tradition. Pardon? MR. WEINMAN: As a matter -- as a (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 188 practice. We’ve been -- we’ve put it on most Congressional Gold Medals but not all. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Are there other questions? (No response.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. This time around I’m going to exercise the privilege of the Chair and I’m going to start. I’m going to start because of all the programs in front of us today, this one’s most important to me. And the reason is because it’s about art. And it’s about an effort to save it at a time when the world had been plunged into chaos and war and strife. And so, to me, as I look at this project in front of us, there are some things that jump out to me. And one of them is a glaring contrast that I hope we can kind of nail based on the designs that we might recommend. And one -- I guess the main contrast I want to bring to light here is who the Nazis were, and what they were trying to do, and what the Monument Men did to recover. And so the Nazis, of (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 189 course, were -- they were all into subjugation of peoples into oppression, and into forcing a conformance with their brutal doctrine. That’s what this was about. And stealing away art and hiding it, and doing whatever they were trying to do with it, was an overt attempt to squash the freedom of thought, of creativity and expression. So it was something that I think was a total affront to everything that should be about art. And that stands in sharp contrast to the artistic mindset which is all about freedom of expression, uniqueness; it’s about creativity. And so what we’re -- what this medal represents is, I think, what the Monuments Men attempted to do and accomplish, but also, as we observe that, I don’t want to miss the point of the deeper message, and the deeper accomplishment. And that is that we preserved the ability of the world to have artists who would express themselves freely and to convey ideas in an artistic way, beyond text. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 190 So I think there’s two directions I’d like to have represented on the medal. And my way of thinking about it is on the obverse, if you look at obverse number 11, which -- if you can put that up on the screen -- this speaks directly to who the Monuments Men were and what their mission was and what they accomplished. They were the Monuments Men and their mission is to save the heritage of our civilization. Golden Ratio there. And they’ve got the Wonderful work of art illustrated there. So for me, as far as illustrating or presenting on this medal who the Monuments Men were and what they accomplished, number 11 seems to say it all to me. Now, before I move beyond the obverses, there’s a couple here -- and I spoke about this earlier and I’m sorry that the folks on the phone didn’t have reference to it -- but coins and medals are small objects. And unfortunately, in my time on the committee there seems to be a tendency to try to turn some of these coins and (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 191 medals into plaques that are all about narrative, all about text. If ever there was an art medal that should be about art, folks, it’s this one. So I will leave this place very disappointed today if we leave with designs that focus on text. And when I say that, I’m talking about obverse number 3. I’m talking about obverse number 12. And there’s more on the reverses. And I’ll point those out here just momentarily. But I will support number 11 for the obverse. I’m really disappointed with the reverses as a group. narrative based. I count seven of the nine as That shouldn’t be. We’re talking -- we’re celebrating the recovery and the preservation of art right in the aftermath of World War II. So for me, when I see -- if we can bring up number 4 -- number 4 gets the deeper meaning of what the Monuments Men accomplished and it gives attribution to the various forms of art. That (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 192 text around the edge is profound. “Art is the Visible Evidence of the Activity of the Free Minds.” want. And that’s exactly what the Nazis did not And that’s what they lost and they didn’t get their way. Thank God. So with this design, we give attribution to the performing arts, the visual arts and literature. presentation. And I think it’s a beautiful And when paired with the obverse where we specifically name the Monuments Men and what their mission was and on the reverse we speak to what it was they actually preserved. And what they actually preserved was our ability as humans to express ourselves with free minds. So with that, who would like to go next? MR. SCARINCI: Usually, when it comes to Congressional Gold Medals, I always tend to favor the sponsor or the recipient organization. this case, that will not happen. In So I don’t like the designs at all that the recipient organization thinks are good. I agree, a thousand percent, with what (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 193 Gary is saying. This is an opportunity and we should take it. I think there is three combinations that work and I do like the motto of the reverse 4 as well. But I like obverse 2. I think that’s really pretty awesome, actually. I like obverse 2, possibly -- and then the pairing of it could be with either reverse 2 or reverse 4. I also like obverse 1 or obverse 11, which Gary picked, but maybe not paired with obverse 4. Maybe instead -- it almost looks like it goes -- 11 almost looks like it goes with 7. So it’s kind of like either those two together; obverse 2 with reverse 2, possibly. with reverse 4, possibly. Obverse 2 I think those would be the ones that I’m gravitating towards. The text, I just -- I completely agree. As far as I’m concerned, we just cross those all out. It’s horrible. MS. STAFFORD: CHAIRMAN MARKS: Mr. Chairman. MS. STAFFORD: Yes. CHAIRMAN MARKS: May I please? Yes. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 194 MS. STAFFORD: I actually -- I should have included some additional information. I apologize. If I could just go back, I just -- for the committee. The preferences from our liaison, obverse 6, he did submit some information and I did promise to read that. This was some background on the reason for preference. This design, obverse 6, inspired by the raising of the U.S. flag at Iwo Jima, was preferred by the liaison as he felt that the helmeted soldiers in action conveyed the danger and urgency of the Monuments Men mission during the war. The works of art are significant in that they represent the stewardship of these cultural treasures by the Monuments Men who returned the stolen works of art to their rightful owners, including German museums, occupied countries and private owners, all of who were targeted for theft by the Nazis. All three works of art are recognizable. Starting clockwise from the left-hand side, the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 195 artists represented were Rembrandt, van Dyck and Vermeer. The use of these three works accomplish a lot. The Rembrandt belonged to the German museum -- a German museum representative of the nearly one million objects the Monuments Men held in custody and ultimately returned to the newly formed German government by 1951. The van Dyck was the very first work of art returned by the Monuments Men to Belgium on orders of General Eisenhower. The Vermeer was stolen from the Parisian Rothschild family and was the very first targeted theft of the Nazi looting machine. And, of course, the reverse; although I know we have comments about it looking like a plaque, I just wanted to be sure to include that the liaison preferred this design, reverse 8, because of the quote from -- at the time, the Supreme Allied Commander, General Eisenhower. It represented and spoke for the Monuments Men of all the western allied nations, which excludes the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 196 Soviets. It further represents the iconic creators and artists of some of western civilizations most cherished treasures, whose creative body was at risk during the war. Much of it was saved by the work of the Monuments Men. So thank you. I appreciate that. And I apologize for not including that information earlier. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Thank you, April. I don’t think we necessarily need to go in some sort of a linear line down the table here. So if there is someone else who would like to go. Erik? MR. JANSEN: It’s interesting. What I’ve heard in the past ten minutes is two different honorariums here. honoring the men. One of them is And the other one, and Gary spoke to it quite eloquently and I agree basically with what Gary said, honors the mission. And so the question is, are we honoring the men or the mission. And I don’t know the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 197 answer to that. I do know I think it is an important question we’re going to come down to here. I personally don’t think that to the mission of preserving the art work -- freedom of speech, freedom of thinking, all of that -doesn’t necessarily include the context of soldiers. But I think if you honor the men, the soldiers are brought into the context of what we’re honoring here. So I’m going to really make two different platforms here and you pick. If we’re honoring the men, the men, I’m very tempted to include men in the artwork. frankly, in obverse 6. And I end up, quite And on the reverse, because I don’t have men in this case -- and there may have been some women involved as well, I don’t know the historical facts -FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. JANSEN: Yes, there was. Okay. So in that case, maybe not having women in the picture is really the biggest problem here. If I do a reversal on (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 198 honoring the men and women I necessarily probably end up pulling some text up which explains what they did. And in that sense I end up in, unfortunately, a plaque and not a medal. And whether that’s 3, whether that’s 4, whether that’s 8; you pick. Now, if you are picking the mission, which is kind of where I end up here, the context of military leaves the picture, and you end up going after what is art and why was it important that we did this. And that’s when it gets fun in my book because I absolutely love a couple of these pieces of art. If you take obverse 11 and reverse 7 you almost have to pick one or the other. I personally pick the obverse portion using the Golden Mean. I honestly think if this was a monetized coin, Donald would be giving it an award a year from now at the COTY awards. (Laughter.) MR. JANSEN: Now, I don’t know that it qualifies because it’s not monetized. But maybe (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 199 that gives you some sense of how strongly I feel about the design of obverse 11. That is an, Oh, my goodness design. I also happen to like 1 and 2. Pick the one where you either tolerate or like the text the best. Those would be my choices for obverse. I would favor 11 overall. So when I go to pair 11 to a reverse, I almost have to make sure I complete the statement of the mission, as well as demonstrate, represent its significance. And I end up in reverse 4. Because, one, that is a symbolic representation that, in fact, the reason this was important is that we are preserving the freedom of minds in the form of the art that has been brought forth by them. So I end up, honestly, and I hope this isn’t a contradiction to our goal as a committee, with a medal here that goes after the mission and its significance, rising above, quite frankly, the egos of the men and women who did it and landing on why what they did was important. Thank you. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 200 CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. WEINMAN: Greg. Well, obviously, the designs are before you because they were deemed to meet the letter of the legislation. I think before you try to answer Erik’s question, the legislation itself -- the charge is that this is to be a Congressional Gold Medal in commemoration to Monuments Men in recognition of their heroic role in the preservation, protection, and restitution of monuments, works of art, and artifacts of cultural importance during and following World War II. So read into that -- I mean, one could interpret that as -CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. You know, what I read into that is that the two are inseparable. You don’t have the Monuments Men being the Monuments Men unless they had their mission and accomplished it. So I don’t know -- I appreciate Erik’s comparison and I think it’s legitimate. But I think they are so closely held to each other that they move in tandem. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 201 MR. JANSEN: I’m not advocating that anybody is going to go jail for making the wrong decision here. I’m merely trying to tease out maybe why you might be being pulled in two different directions here. CHAIRMAN MARKS: to go next? Okay. Who would like Robert. MR. HOGE: Can I say something? CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. HOGE: Yes. I agree with Erik. I think I would favor the same two designs for obverse and reverse. There is a conflict, though, because both of these say, “Act of Congress.” And so we would have to have, as a motion, some changing if these were, in fact -CHAIRMAN MARKS: Robert, could you state which ones those are specifically? MR. HOGE: Yes. MALE SPEAKER: It’s obverse 11 and -Please speak into the microphone. CHAIRMAN MARKS: If you could speak into the microphone. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 202 MR. HOGE: Obverse 11 and reverse 4. I believe those are the ones that Erik was just alluding to. And I agree, although, I think the images on the -- some of the others are very appropriate as well. But it’s -- the idea that these do not mention “the men,” which is a little troubling to me. We have issued some other pieces here that were in honor of specific units of the military. And were not the Monuments Men all actually co-opted into the military and serving in specific units designated for doing this cultural service that we just nicknamed them the Monuments Men? CHAIRMAN MARKS: Well, if Hollywood had had it accurate, that’s it. But I’d like to appeal to someone who knows the history. Greg? Or maybe we should recognize the folks on the phone from the foundation? MR. EDSEL: The -- in response to the question that was just asked? CHAIRMAN MARKS: Yes. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 203 MR. EDSEL: There was no designated unit, which is part of the reason we’ve arrived to 2015 -- well, 2014 and so few people knew about the story. They were individual soldiers, serving in Civil Affairs, that were attached to different Army units responsible for doing what was done. No one had foreseen the scope of the activities of the -- that they’d be drawn into. So there is no unit patches. There’s no designated braids or anything on uniforms. They are just soldiers, in most cases officers, who were assigned to the U.S. Fifth Army and British Eighth in Italy and U.S. Third Army in Northern Europe; Twelfth Army Group and so on. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. HOGE: Robert. I wonder if it might be important to mention some of this because this is part of what we’re doing in honoring the men serving these various detachments, more so than naming -- more so than naming the works of art. Some of these things include many names of writers, and sculptors, and musicians and so on. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 204 I wonder if we might have some way of getting back to these men and women as individuals. MR. WEINMAN: No way? In these kind of situations we can’t -- when you have a large group like, this you can’t single out certain individuals for honor. The legislation clearly states that we’re honoring the Monuments Men as a group, and therefore, we have a long standing practice of not picking out individual Monuments Men either by name or by identity. MS. STAFFORD: But it’s for that reason, Mr. Hoge, that the designs showing soldiers, showing Monuments Men in action, was particularly of interest to our liaison. MR. HOGE: So you’re right. Yes, I understand. I’d like to mention, too, my particular liking for obverse design number 8. This is a very attractive piece; the gorgeous young woman trumpeting. But I see what looks like buzzards above her head. And this is not really Victory because traditionally she’s always represented with wings. And there’s no symbol of Victory here either since the leaves and (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 205 berries are bay leaves, or laurels, or something like that; maybe olives. There is no palm. The palm is the symbol of Victory. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. HOGE: That’s it. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Someone else? Okay. Thank you, Robert. Jeanne. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes. I -- thank you, Gary. I’m inclined to agree with our stakeholder in choosing number 6. However, I prefer obverse number 7. And the reason for it is this soldier is actually carrying a three dimensional object. And we have representation of three dimensions there where in the background we just have two dimensional pieces, which I think is important. But this sort of encompasses everything. If we paired this with reverse number 4, then I think we would be addressing all of our art that was being subject to, you know, demise. The other reverse that I think is (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 206 important, because of its simplicity, is reverse number 2. We have, you know, future generations there and also some more information about what was saved. So these two pieces, obverse 7 and reverse 2, would be my choices because they honor what our soldiers went through, which is a very, very, very difficult thing to do when they weren’t trained to be soldiers. They were trained -- you know, their passion was art. save art. They were trying to And all of a sudden they were thrown into battles and being shot at, and their lives were in danger. So I think we really have to represent these men and women in this medal. remember, this is a medal. planchet to work on. And we have to So we have a large We can have more information than we can have on our gold medal that we just spoke about. So I think we can have some more sculpting in the medal -- in the planchet. to me, is a more appropriate piece. So 7, Thank you. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 207 CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. VIOLA: Herman? Thank you. As an archivist myself, and a museum person, this is really very close to me. In fact, the irony is, when I first started my career at the National Archives, I worked with the people who were the ones who went into the government buildings to rescue our permanently valuable records. It’s amazing the conditions they found them in. recognition for this. And they got no But that’s why the National Archives is what it is today. So I feel very blessed to be part of this program. And I would like to say that I’m kind -- a little concerned. to destroy art. words. The Nazis weren’t out These -- I shouldn’t use bad These folks were stealing this to become wealthy. They weren’t destroying it, they were hiding it -MALE SPEAKER: MR. VIOLA: I agree. -- and they were going sell it later when the won the war and all that kind of stuff. That’s why I don’t care much for these (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 208 empty picture frames. But, you know, I really appreciate what the people who have the vested interest in this want. And my one concern is, and I’m not the sculptor, can you really make this look effective? Either number 6 or number 7. I mean, I love the concept of the flag at Iwo Jima. it. And I can see And, you know, you have the details of those images. But will that work? I guess Heidi would be the one to tell us that. Would that work as a coin? MR. EVERHART: I could answer that. I could address that if you’d like to hear. I think that we, on this particular design, we have nice little contrast with the texture of the cave or the salt mine behind the soldiers and the soldiers themselves. I think it would make a really nice obverse. MR. VIOLA: would go with that. Okay. I think, then, I And then on the reverse, you know, I’ve listened to everything everyone has said and I agree we don’t want to have, you know, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 209 a plaque. I did like, at first, the idea of number 3 changing “culture” to “heritage,” because I think that’s really what we’re talking about. But then, again, I like number 2 because I’m a museum person. day. I’m at the Smithsonian every other And there are people walking down the halls looking at the materials that we’ve saved for posterity. And I think that’s a neat concept. And so -- and then I also like the idea of number 4. But I do think that, you know, this is a very, very important medal and I want to make sure that we all agree we’ve done the best thing we can for this concept. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MS. LANNIN: Mary. Okay. I do volunteer work at the Legion of Honor in San Francisco. And that was where one of the original Monuments Men was a curator for almost 30 years. MALE SPEAKER: MS. LANNIN: Howe. Director. His name was Thomas Carr And what goes around, comes around. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 210 Eventually, on exhibit there was a Anthony van Dyck portrait of a lady. And he recognized his own handwriting on the back after he discovered it; it came back to the museum to go on exhibit. I’m going to go a little differently than what other people are saying. I initially, because the mind is such a flexible, plastic thing, I liked the obverse number 4. have a soldier. circumstances. Here you And they were under dangerous They did carry weapons, I believe. And he’s pulling back a canvas on something, but we don’t know what it is. So it’s our mind letting us wonder which piece of art that is. I like the verticality of Monuments Men. I like the fact that it looks like it’s chiseled. And I think that you could get some great contrast with that. I would pair that -- and take a look at the corner of the frame -- if you pair that with number 2 on the reverse, there’s the painting back in the museum. And that’s where we see the family and everybody walking away. So you get the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 211 impression the soldier saved it in this situation and now it’s back on the wall for where, you know, everybody wants it. Also, that said, I did like obverse number 11 with the Golden Ratio. I thought that that was absolutely beautiful. And I know that we don’t want text on things. I also liked reverse 8, which is what the stakeholders wanted, because I like the Eisenhower quote. So that’s that. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Michael, do you want to go? MR. MORAN: Why not? CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. MORAN: Go ahead. I guess my problem is that the whole batch of them did not really inspire me. I wanted more. I wanted better. And the problem as I got to it, were the reverses; entirely too much text. We’ve said it. We’ve said it. We’ve said it time and time again at these meetings. And yet here it is again. And I know you can’t control what you get from the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 212 artist, but they’ve done it. And the problem I have with that is there are only one or two here that really aren’t text on the reverse. that. And then we have to take You try to match it to the obverse, you have problems. I tried to work backwards and what do I match it with. You’re either going to pick number 2 or number 4 in my mind because the rest are just text. And Mary makes a good case for matching number 2 on the reverse with number 4 on the obverse. That’s one option. And really the only other one is you take number 4. You can’t match it, really, with some of the others on the obverse, like number 10 or number 9, because you’re repeating yourself. And you get to the storyboard. And I know where we all are going on the storyboard. So in my mind, and I haven’t decided yet, I’ve got to either go Mary’s combination of 4 and 2 or I’m going to go with what they want which is obverse 6 and marry it with number 4 on the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 213 reverse. But this is what happens when we have a set of, quite frankly, mediocre designs. I’m sorry. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. URAM: Tom. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yeah, I think that some of the pairings do match well. But I’d also -- I do like number 11 on the obverse and I certainly respect number 6 or 7. I think number 6, in particular, would really be a nice three dimensional image in the way that it would strike up particularly being a three inch medal and have a three dimensional effect. And if we are honoring the men, then I think I too don’t want to go into the wording too much. And what Mary just said matches up. It looks like even could be, you know, it’s the same type set for 2 and 4 -- or 4 and 2, I’m sorry -- 4 and 2 on the obverse of the other one. They tend to match just like 11 and 7 would. But going back to number 6 and going (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 214 back to what Greg had said about the legislation. And if it’s for the men and they haven’t been recognized before, and where the mission might have been recognized before, I lean towards number 6 and then maybe pairing it with something that would be less -- whether it be number 4 or number 7 on the reverse. And then number 7 -- I tend to like that with a little bit more imagination to it than number 8 even though it does have the Eisenhower quote on that one. So I’m thinking of splitting and I guess giving the committee -- or the organization a little bit and then changing it up a little bit as well. But I think the obverse would really strike up well with that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Thank you. Are there any quick follow ups? Heidi. You haven’t gone yet. I’m sorry, Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: When I first got my packet, the way my eye first went was to obverse (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 215 11. When I saw this I thought if I were buying this medal, that’s the one I would buy if I saw this at the Mint Store. would buy. That’s the one that I That’s the one that I would want to have because it’s beautiful and that’s what I would want to own. On obverse 6, my first impression of that was that it’s way too busy even for the size of the Congressional Gold Medal. But really what’s making it look busy is all that texture in the background. If that texture were softened, or even eliminated, then the composition would hold much stronger. I like the symbology here; the significance. I do like seeing soldiers somewhere on the medal because that completes the story. And some of these other designs that are very beautiful that don’t include any soldiers, misses the point a little bit I think. The uniforms of the soldiers here have a lot of texture as well; the wrinkles and folds. And so against the texture of the background, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 216 that’s what’s making this look busy. So if we can use our imagination to look at this without that heavy, heavy texture, I think that that would be a more attractive design. Because there’s not a lot of support on the reverse designs except for a couple of them. I want to just throw out the idea that we could put design 11 -- obverse 11 and pair it with obverse 6. Because this is a medal it could hold that much relief. And we would get the most beautiful design in the packet with the most meaningful design in the packet onto one piece as an obverse and reverse. And we could even simplify obverse 6 by taking off the word, “Monuments Men,” since it’s on the design 11. So I just want to throw that in the ring as a suggestion. Obverse 6 and obverse 11 as a front and back to each other. On the reverse designs, I like design number 4 as a design about art and culture. But I don’t think it’s specific enough to our topic. reverse 2, I do like this as a storytelling (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 On Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 217 device. It has the reference to the music, and the writing, and the art. And as a pairing with obverse 4, we have the soldier, we have the history and then we have the future of the museum. So that’s a really nice storytelling device to have obverse 4 and obverse 2 together. And that is the preference of Michael Bugeja, who’s not here today, who sent me his comments. He’s likes that combination. So those are two suggestions that I have. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Are there some follow ups? MR. SCARINCI: I have a follow up. First of all, this is why it would be great if we could have one artist design the obverse and reverse and look at these things that way so that we have the full conceptual vision of an artist, especially when we’re talking about medals. And I hope that when we really get into art medals and real medals, we’re really just going to look at one artist at a time; obverse and (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 218 reverse. Because if we’re going to mix and match obverse and reverse, that’s just not going to -that’s just not art. That’s just not going to work. So -- but for purposes of this, this is the closest we have come so far to really seeing pairings of obverse and reverse. And I really want to point out like, you know, what Mary noticed was absolutely the case. And I’d venture to guess they were the same artist. And, you know, but 4 and 2 is a beautiful pairing. That would make a nice medal. The other thing that’s a really cool thing that I don’t know that anybody’s noticed, is the pairing of obverse 11 with reverse 7. If you flip it -- if you flip obverse -- if you flip that thing, you get the completion of the circle on the other end. So you see where that -- you see where that circle -- you know, you get the completion of the thing. I mean, if you flip it. So that’s very cool. medal should be. That’s what a I mean, that’s, you know, that’s (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 219 a four-dimensional object; time being the fourth dimension. That’s a four dimensional -- it’s great. So I would -- I mean, I think that’s what -- when we do medals this is what we’ve got to be looking for. We’ve got to be looking for a complete idea -- ideas. say, “idea.” It’s a New Jersey way to But we have to -- we need to look for a complete thought. And so I really -- you know, and this is the closest we’ve ever come to seeing that even though they’re on two -- they’re still doing -giving us obverses and reverses separately. So I would even -- so I would, you know, and I -- I guess I have to express my visceral dislike for number -- for obverse 6. visceral. It’s just I just don’t like it. So I think I would either be inclined to go with 4 and 2 or I would be inclined to go with 11 and 7. And maybe even more so 11 and 7 just because it’s a real medal. It’s the first time we’ve done a real medal. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 220 CHAIRMAN MARKS: Thank you, Donald. Other follow ups? Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: support for reverse 7. I just want to add We say that we don’t like a lot of text on the medals and so the knee jerk reaction on 7 is to say, well, it’s got a lot of text on it. But really in this case. the lettering is the texture; it’s a design, rather than something to be literally read. So I just want to throw in my support for that. And it does pair, and I would assume intentionally, with number 11. It would be nice to see them together. MS. LANNIN: Can I add something? I really like Donald’s idea of flipping that. I think that’s fabulous. And I think it would make a really beautiful medal; 7 and 11. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. JANSEN: Erik. I would echo Heidi’s description of 7 that that’s really not text; it is texture. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 221 And it’s really quite simple. And I really appreciate Donald’s opinion here. You won’t hear me say that a lot. (Laughter.) MR. JANSEN: No, joking aside. I really appreciate the pairing mechanisms here because we don’t often see it so well. I actually think there is just -- there is a really amazing amount of good art here. It’s not easy to pick. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Anyone else? I have a couple of comments. First of all, I did want to address the idea that the Nazis were attempting to preserve or catalog art. Well, you know, there were piles of books that were burned all over Europe. I don’t think we were preserving anything there. And when the Nazis got the idea that they weren’t going to win, then they did start to destroy it. So I can’t accept the idea that the result of what they did was to try to preserve because when they were going to lose they decided just to destroy. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 222 As far as the relevance, Heidi suggested maybe reverse 4 was not specific enough to the Monuments Men. Its relevance is in pairing it with an obverse design. And that’s the point I was trying to make; that the obverse design, being the obverse, should strongly convey the idea of naming the Monuments Men, what they were doing, what they accomplished. And, you know, there are more possibilities of doing that than 11 that I pointed out. There’s been some great comments about some of the other obverses. But I’ll stand by my support of number 4 for the reverse because, again, I think the message there is so profound and that message is shared with all the various forms of art with the visuals that are on that design. So I’ll ask my colleagues if they can to find their way to throw some support behind number 4. And I think with that we’re probably ready to go ahead and fill out our -MR. EDSEL: May I make a comment? (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 223 Robert Edsel. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Yes, go ahead. But if the members could begin to get that work going and get it into Erik. Mr. Edsel, please go ahead. MR. EDSEL: Having spent some 19 years working on this, and having interviewed 19 Monuments officers of whom there are still five living today, and having spent a great deal of time with the people in Congress encouraging them to pass this legislation, my opinion -- and in rereading the bill here in front of me -- is we’re not honoring General -- President Roosevelt for endorsing this; we’re honoring the men of all 13 nations, and women, who did this service. I’m sitting here looking on the internet at the U.S. Mint’s website of other Congressional Gold Medals honoring military units. And I can’t find one honoring soldiers that doesn’t have soldiers present on it. I understand the desire and the artistic elements of trying to pick something that’s (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 224 pretty, or pick something that has great numismatic value, or has a wonderful design, but I don’t think that’s the charge here. I think the charge is to follow the guidelines of Congress which is to honor the men. And I don’t know how we do that. And why we would depart from what you all have done in the past, or what’s been done in the past, representing the men or the people that are being honored by -according to the bill on the medal. General Eisenhower’s words are certainly compelling as are the words on the, “Art is the Visible Evidence of Activity of Free Minds.” But the danger that these men went through, to being killed in combat, is lost by not having any representation of having soldiers doing something. And I find obverse 4 of them pulling back a tarp a little bit bland rather than being shot at or blown up, as was the case with two of the Monuments officers. Hence, our recommendation for 6 where there is some sense of urgency to what they’re doing. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 225 They’re doing it during combat. They’re not sitting in an office somewhere telling people what to do; or obverse 5, coming along and cataloging things in their spare time. So I think, you know, when the public looks at this, this is part of the reason this whole story sat in obscurity for so long is the public hasn’t known what the heck it is these people did. And Monuments Men and the whole idea of books and film was to get it out there. Then when people heard, Monuments Men, and they thought, Oh, those are the people that saved art during World War II. This symbolism and beauty -- and I admit it is very beautiful, obverse 11, magnificent. And love the symbolism of reverse 4; also very, very poignant. But I think those are honoring the what they were doing, not necessarily the people that are doing it. And the way I read this Congressional Gold Medal Bill, that’s what the charge is. Rather, in this situation, I think that (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 226 the effort to try and recognize who these men and women were is really, really -- should be our guiding light on this thing and not something that is so esoteric or so -- has symbolism to it. think symbolism is great. I But why not in the world, depict what it is that they did? That’s what I see on these other Gold Medals. It’s what I see astronauts doing. what I see Amelia Earhart doing. It’s And I think putting the art ahead of who the people are, I understand the thought behind it and I happen to be -- sometimes I like be esoteric about things. But the public is lost on that. The whole idea is to remind people because we’re watching it happen in Iraq and Syria today. There are bad guys out there determined to destroy people’s culture and civilizations. And in the bad areas of the world right now in Iraq and Syria, we don’t have the men and women there that are losing their lives trying to protect this thing. We don’t have the soldiers there. So I think that we’re -- it’s great to (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 227 talk about importance of preserving the arts as a generalized thing. I think it’s fabulous. someone’s got to go do it. lives. And that means risking That’s what these guys did. their lives doing it. But They lost And we’re a long way away from that in depicting beautiful things like 11 and 4 rather than honoring who these men and women were that took this risk. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Thank you, Mr. Edsel. I ask the members to vote and pass your sheets in, please. MS. STAFFORD: And, Mr. Edsel and Ms. Fox, I just want to -- while they are turning in their sheets, to say thank you so much for attending today and having so much passion and dedication to this topic. working with you. It’s been a pleasure Thank you. MR. EDSEL: If you -- are you through with us? MS. STAFFORD: No, sir. You can stay on. CHAIRMAN MARKS: There will be the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 228 report on the vote tally. But I think we’re going to take a short recess while that occurs. MR. EDSEL: Would you like us to stay on or not? CHAIRMAN MARKS: Well, I mean, if you’d like to know what the scores are and what our recommendations are, then you might want to hang on. MR. EDSEL: Sure. CHAIRMAN MARKS: That would be up to you. MR. EDSEL: Yes, we will of course do that. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. CHAIRMAN MARKS: for, let’s say, 15 minutes. Okay. We are in recess I will -- if there is quorum in the room, I will call us back to order at ten minutes past three. We are in recess. (Brief recess.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: I do have results on the Monuments Men. I'll let everyone get settled here for (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 229 just a moment. All right, if you're ready. On the obverse -- so on the obverse for Monuments Men, as I read these off, if I skip a number, assume that to be a zero. So observe number 1 -- actually, let me explain the tally process for those who might not be familiar with it. Each member is accorded the ability to assign up to three points to any and all designs. A member could decide to assign three to one design, one to another, or zero to yet another. So what we do, it's kind of a way of vote intensity or gauging the intensity of support for particular designs. voting. So we've got ten members And if each member had three votes potential, the maximum possible vote for any one given design was 30. By committee rule, you must reach 16, which is 50 percent, plus 1, to be qualified, I'll say, for the committee's recommendation. There can be multiple designs that cross the threshold, and typically, we go with the design that accumulates the most points (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 230 for either obverse or reverse. There are occasions, though, after the votes are tallied and announced that there can be motions to ultimately resolve the recommendation from this committee. So with that, I'll begin with obverse number 1. Design number 1 received three. 2 received four. 4 received nine. 5 received one. 6 received seventeen. 7 received seven. 8 received two. 11 received nineteen. 12 was zero. So as it stands, the committee's recommended design would be number 11 for the obverse. Moving to the reverse. 1 received zero, just to get us off on the right start there. 2 -- design 2 on the reverse received seventeen. Design number 3 received one. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 231 Design number 4 received eighteen, and would be the committee's recommended design, according to the vote tally. Design number 7 received thirteen. Design number 8 received five. And 8a was zero. So those are the tally results. Is there any follow up? MS. LANNIN: Gary, I don't think they match. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MS. LANNIN: Pardon me? I don't think the obverse and reverse make a good match. I -- I don't know. There's such a purity about the one with the golden ratio, golden rule. And then we get to the other one, and it just -- I don't know any other way to describe it except that I just don't think it's a good combo together, my opinion. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Jeanne, did you want to say something? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes, I do. Thank you, Gary. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 232 Number one, we're so very close to what our stakeholder was so passionate about. I think it's really important to this particular metal to honor what congress has charged us with. I think these men and women need recognition, and I'm very sorry that we are so close in this vote, and the fact that we do not have a very beautiful match between 11 and 4, I'd like the committee to reconsider to what we are doing with this particular project. This is not a simple thing. This is an opportunity to remember, not just what happened, but to remember the people that were really involved in a very dangerous situation. And I don't think -- as much as we have other beautiful designs, I don't think that we are meeting our challenge. Thank you. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Any other comments? Heidi? MR. WASTWEET: Is there any support around the table for my idea of obverse 11 and (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 233 observe 6? They both got high scores, and we seem to be torn a bit. So is there any support from others for that idea? (No response.) MS. WASTWEET: I'll take that silence as a no. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. Are there other comments? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: that's a good idea. Heidi, I think I think part of it would help us all to recognize what Congress has challenged us with -- charged us with. So if we -- since we're not having a good match with number 4, although I think it would be a better match with 4 -- reverse 4 and obverse 6, I'm not opposed to having obverse 11 be the reverse of that medal. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. EDSEL: Is there any -- One comment I'll make, if you go with 22 obverse and -CHAIRMAN MARKS: Sir, this is the committee's time to try to decide what it's recommendation is. Thank you. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 234 MR. EDSEL: I was just going to remind you the charge from Congress. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Thank you. Committee members, any more comments? MR. VIOLA: I just want to say we're close to doing what the Monuments people want, and I think we should try to have a reexamination, get six or seven, or maybe four -- at least a solider in the picture. MR. JANSEN: I'm going to kind of step in here and do a mashup, guys. What if we were to take obverse 11 as is, and take for the opposite side, the reverse it would be, take obverse 6 and wrap it with a text in reverse 4, lighten up the background to Heidi's comment, what makes this busy is the cave walls. crazy mashup? Is that too much of a Any support out there? Didn't sound like it. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Is there any reaction to Erik's comment? MS. LANNIN: I'm trying to figure out where (inaudible) could work. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 235 MR. JENSEN: Well, I'm fond of "Art is the visible evidence of the activity of free minds." And we wouldn't have to pick up act of Congress that is on obverse 11. We are -- the title of obverse 11 is Monuments Men, it's not saving art. So I think we capture the men. Again, with all due respect, the mission was to preserve the art, not to put your life at risk. many ways to put your life at risk. There are I'm not sure that's worth memorializing in specific. I think putting your life at risk to preserve the art was the mission here. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. SCARINCI: Comments or motions? I think -- look, I've accepted defeat and, you know, on a real medal. And, you know, I think we voted and that's it. And I don't see that we should -- I don't really see that we should revisit this, especially, if the result is going to be -- you know, that we have to come up and do the same thing, the same bad thing that we always do with these medals, so (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 236 we have another medal that looks like every other bad medal that we do. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I'm -- Jeanne. I'm sorry. Donald, I totally disagree with you. I think I'm going to make a motion -- and this might not go -but I would like to have the committee reconsider what we're doing and try to adopt Heidi's idea where we're using the obverse 6 with obverse 11 as the reverse. Is that okay? CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. Obverse 6 as the obverse, and obverse 11, we would convert to the reverse? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes. And to explain this, the reason for it is we are so close -- we are so very close to meeting what our stakeholder is trying to achieve. should honor that wish. I think we Thank you. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. So is there a second to the motion? MR. VIOLA: I second it. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Herman seconded. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 237 Okay. Is there discussion? Robert. MR. HOGE: I would suggest also that we consider changing the inscription appropriately if we were to adopt obverse 11 as a reverse type. couldn't leave on Monuments Men (inaudible). We And we could add in perhaps some of what saw on the reverse -MR. WEINMAN: to the microphone. We can't -- speaker closer We're having concerns hearing you. MR. HOGE: We could perhaps add in some of the wording that was on reverse 7, which was designed to be an accompaniment to a very similar sort of design. CHAIRMAN MARKS: With the motion on the table, the motion maker would need to agree to any changes. Jeanne, do you want to make any changes to your motion? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: The only change that I would make would be to maybe articulate (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 238 better what would be on the reverse. Since we have Monuments Men on the obverse, then I think we should keep that. And on the reverse, where we have Monuments Men, we could add some other text. And I don't want to include that in my motion, but just to say that it's -- you know, maybe we reconsider another text to take out Monuments Men on the reverse. CHAIRMAN MARKS: The motion is to take 6 and 11, both obverse designs, as is, and I guess we'd consider 11 the reverse? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes. But if we do that, then we need to take Monuments Men -MS. WASTWEET: (Inaudible). MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: the text. Yeah, not repeat Thank you, Heidi. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Take it off of 11? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes, because we would have it on both side. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I don't think we need that on both sides. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 239 CHAIRMAN MARKS: So there is a change. So removing that on the -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN MARKS: Yes. -- on number 11? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. Yes. Heidi, did you have a comment? MR. SCARINCI: Mr. Chairman, is there a motion that's been seconded? CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. SCARINCI: Yes. Oh, okay, because I have a motion as well. CHAIRMAN MARKS: We need to act on this one first. MR. SCARINCI: CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. So the motion is to use obverse 6 as the obverse, obverse 11 as the reverse with the removal of the words "Monuments Men" on 11 because it's already on 6. So with that, I will ask for a show of hands. All those in favor, please raise your hand. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 240 (Show of hands.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: Six. All those opposed, raise your hand. (Show of hands.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: That would be four. Motion carries six to four. So we've now overridden our vote process. And we have a different formulation. MR. SCARINCI: Could I make a motion? CHAIRMAN MARKS: You certainly can. It's your right as a member. MR. SCARINCI: Okay. I'd like to since we're just doing what they want, let's just give them what they want. loaf. Let's not give them a half a We could have saved ourselves about an hour of discussion. So I'd like to make a motion that we pair obverse 6 with -- which one do they want -- obverse 8a? FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. SCARINCI: 8. 8? I'd like to make a motion that we do obverse 6 with reverse 8 because when you do something for somebody, you might as (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 241 well do it all the way. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Is there a second on that motion? MS. LANNIN: I'll second. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MS. LANNIN: Did you second? Yeah, I did. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. We've had a motion and a second to go with obverse 6 and reverse, is it 8? Yes, 8. Is there any discussion on that? All those in favor, please raise your hand. (Show of hands.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: Three. Opposed? (Show of hands.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: Someone's missing. Six? One, two, three, five. Six, seven. Okay. Motion fails three to seven. So we have a recommendation. to move on, folks. It's time It's obverse 6 as our obverse, obverse 11 as our reverse with the removal of the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 242 words "Monuments Men." I'd like to thank everyone who was involved in this process. And I think at the end of the day, we'll have a beautiful medal. MS. STAFFORD: CHAIRMAN MARKS: Mr. Chairman. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you, all. Mr. Chairman. ask Mr. Edsel if he could add to this. I need to He just sent an email. Mr. Edsel, did you want to speak to the observe 11 and obverse 6? MR. EDSEL: I'm supportive of it. I think it's a good resolution and, look, you all have the expertise for all the reasons that you outlined earlier, the different expertises that you bring to the table that are critical to coming up with the best possible design. Our point was it's a war medal and we should represent them. think you've come up with an elegant solution to I it. I do agree with eliminating the redundancy. And I thank all the committee members for your patient and open-mindedness to comment, in (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 243 particular those who are less familiar with the medals than you are. CHAIRMAN MARKS: works. Well, the process So thank you very much, Mr. Edsel. All right. agenda. Time to move forward on our Next item for our discussion today is the concepts and themes for the 2017 American the Beautiful Quarters Program. That means that April Stafford is up in the batter's box. DISCUSS CONCEPT/THEME FOR THE 2017 AMERICA THE BEAUTIFUL QUARTERS PROGRAM MS. STAFFORD: Yes. And if agreeable to you, Mr. Chairman, one of our liaisons for Ellis Island, he actually has to pull away at 3:45. So if it's agreeable, I'd like to start with Ellis Island. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MS. STAFFORD: Sure. Get the background information and then engage in that discussion so we can -CHAIRMAN MARKS: MS. STAFFORD: Absolutely. Okay. So we'll start (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 244 with Ellis Island Statute of Liberty National Monument in New Jersey. From 1892 to 1954 Ellis Island was the largest and most active immigration station in the United States where approximately 12 million immigrants were processed. On average, the inspection process took approximately three to seven hours. For the vast majority of immigrants, Ellis Island truly was an island of hope, the first stop on their way to new opportunities and experiences in the United States. For the rest, it became the island of tears, a place where families were separated and individuals were denied entry into this country. Ellis Island was added to the Statue of Liberty National Monument in 1965 by Presidential Proclamation and is administered by the National Park Service. The main building reopened in September 1990 as the Ellis Island Immigration Museum, at that time, the largest restoration project in U.S. history. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 245 Most of the remaining unrestored buildings on Ellis Island were one of the first and largest public health hospitals in the United States. The facility was considered to be the most modern of its day. The 720-bed Ellis Island hospital complex, completed in 1909, consisted of a powerhouse, a morgue, laboratory, and housing for doctors and nurses. Covered corridors connected the main hospital building to infectious disease wards, kitchens, laundries, and recreational facilities for patients and staff. Since a U.S. Supreme Court ruling in 1998, Ellis Island, all of which is federal property, belongs within the territorial jurisdiction of both New York and New Jersey, depending upon where you are. The iconic main building, housing, and immigrations museum is within the boundary of New York State. Since the island was expanded over many years to its current 27 and a half acres, this expanded area, which includes the hospital complex is now within the territory of New Jersey. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 246 Through informal discussions with representatives from Ellis Island, we've identified the following possible devices for the quarter. Hospital complex building located on the south side of Ellis Island. Long distance perspective of Ellis Island from the direction of Liberty Island. Historic photos of immigrants arriving from the National Parks Museum collection, or I should say, designs based upon historic photos. We should have with us our liaison, John Piltzecker, superintendent of the Statute of Liberty National Monument in Ellis Island. John, are you there? MR. PILTZECKER: I am. Good afternoon, everybody. MS. STAFFORD: afternoon. Hello, sir. Good Would you like to say a few comments to the committee? MR. PILTZECKER: have been chosen. We're very pleased to Obviously, our sensitivity is (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 247 that since we were recommended by the Governor of New Jersey, we want to make sure that we are not inadvertently setting ourselves up for a media event taking place in New York. So we think we have ample historical resources to depict the New Jersey side of Ellis Island. We also have quite an extensive collection of historic photos and artifacts that would certainly lend itself to the Quarter Program. MR. SCARINCI: Scarinci. John, this is Donald I've from New Jersey. And if you don't think you're going to be set up to be a media spectacle, guess again. MR. PILTZECKER: Well, we would actually like to be a media spectacle on the south side of Ellis Island. We work with a really great non- profit partner that is New Jersey based. called Save Ellis Island. It's And Save Ellis Island recently opened up the south side hospital buildings to a special hard hat tour program. They partnered with an artist called J.R. to do a very evocative installation of historic photos of (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 248 the hospital buildings, when they were being used, superimposed on to the, quite frankly, semi-ruined state of some of the hospital ward buildings. It's been extremely popular. tours are sold out. All their And this is an organization that's rehabbing the south side buildings of Ellis Island one at a time. They recently completed the laundry building under our leasing program. So we think this was actually an excellent opportunity to highlight their great work. MS. STAFFORD: So, Mr. Chairman, would it be agreeable to have the committee's discussion on this particular quarter's design concept now so we can have Mr. Piltzecker on the phone in case there are questions? CHAIRMAN MARKS: Sure, we can do that. We can do that. So are there concepts or thematic ideas that members would like to add to this discussion, or would you like to comment on what has been presented to us, or both? Anybody? Eric? (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 249 MR. JANSEN: I personally did not go through Ellis Island as an immigrant, but my grandfather did, as did my grandmother from Sweden in the very early part of the 20th century. Didn't speak any English; came at the age of 13, 14 years old. To me, Ellis Island is not about a building. My name was actually changed. My grandfather's name was Karl Hjalmar Yohansson, and they typed it Charles Jansen. So to me, it's really about a transformation, a new life, a new lease on life, a new country, and I would subordinate the change of name, although, there are many stories to that effect. I think this issue, with all due respect, is more about the impact and changes on people's lives and a new opportunity than it is a building. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Others? Thank you, Erik. Michael Moran. MR. MORAN: I have a question for our (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 250 representative. Do I remember right that there's a wall with all of the peoples' names on it that came through Ellis Island for a period of time? MR. PILTZECKER: called the Wall of Honor. That's correct. It's It was placed there by our other non-profit partner, the Statue of Liberty Ellis Island Foundation. That's the organization that rehabs the main immigration building. It serves as a museum of immigration. And actually, I think technically, that piece of Ellis Island -- I'd have to look at the map -- but may actually be on the New Jersey part of Ellis Island because that's -- it was at least partly built on land, so... MR. MORAN: today. Then I'm politically correct That's my question. MR. PILTZECKER: That's all. I'm not sure I heard that last piece. MR. MORAN: I was just making a joke that I was politically correct today. MR. PILTZECKER: MR. MORAN: Oh, okay. I'm from Kentucky. You can (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 251 probably tell from the drawl. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. SCARINCI: Someone else? The beauty of it, Mike, is that we don't select the site. This committee has -- and we should always make that clear -this committee has nothing to do with selecting the site of the state. states. That's entirely up to the Is that correct, counsel? MR. WEINMAN: The sites were actually selected at the very beginning of the program, or before the beginning of the program, working with the states. MR. SCARINCI: MR. WEINMAN: So it's not on the -So, no, the site has already been selected. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. Are there are other comments? MR. VIOLA: I'll make a comment. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. VIOLA: through Ellis Island. years old. Okay. Go ahead. Both my parents came Both of them were 17, 18 And my dad came after his village was (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 252 destroyed in World War I. transformational event. their live. And for them, it was a They talked about it all They encouraged me to go in the military to fight for this country. And, you know, it just is such a powerful symbol for so many people. And I just want to make sure that our designs really do justice to what this is all about. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MS. WASTWEET: Heidi? I want to comment that one of the suggested ideas for this coin, you say there's a long-distance view of the site, and I want to reiterate what we've said in the past, that we are not in favor of postcard-type designs on the small planchet of a quarter. So I think a long-distance view of the site would not be appropriate, so maybe steer away from that. CHAIRMAN MARKS: what Heidi just said. I guess I'll add to I'd like to see designs that keep it simple, that don't try to cram too much into the quarter. I think the more we try to illustrate on the one-inch quarter, the more we (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 253 lose, because there's a point of diminishing returns where the more you add, it just becomes less and less effective. So I would advocate identifying those simple, symbolic images that represent Ellis Island, and that's the challenge of the artist. So I would just ask that we have simple, clean designs that are balanced with the negative space, along with the elements that portray the site. Are there other comments? (No response. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. I think that's it. MS. STAFFORD: Okay, thank you. I would just note as I go on to Effigy Mounds, any of our guests or folks that are listening in on the phone, if you could mute your phones, unless you're speaking, that would help us greatly. Thank you. Okay. Monument in Iowa. So Effigy Mounds National Effigy Mounds National Monument was established in 1949. The Park protects one of (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 254 the largest remaining concentrations of ancient American Indian earth works in the United States. It is considered a sacred landscape by members of many modern-day tribes whose ancestors once lived here. The majority of the mounds were constructed between 1,000 and 2,000 years ago, often to inter the dead, but sometimes for ceremonial purposes, or perhaps even to tell important stories. The Park is home to more than 200 mounds and a wide variety of forms, including more than 30 animal or bird-shaped effigy mounds for which the Park is named. Often, more than 100 feet long individually, many of these animal and bird shaped mounds are perched high atop rugged bluffs overlooking the adjacent Mississippi River. Aside from preserving these tangible links to an ancient and highly creative people, the Park features outstanding view of the Mississippi River Valley and hosts many of the native plant and animal communities that sustained (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 255 people in this area for millennia. Through informal discussions with representatives from Effigy Mounds National Monument, we've identified the following possible devices for the quarter. An individual representative Effigy Mound, either a bird mound or an animal mound; both a bird mound and an animal mound, particularly if their proximity and orientation to each other are recognizably from an actual mound group. And we should have on the phone with us, Superintendent of Effigy Mounds National Monument, Jim Nepstad. Jim, are you there? MR. NEPSTAD: I am. MS. STAFFORD: Hi. Would you like to address the committee, please? MR. NEPSTAD: Sure. Actually, it's been fascinating listening to you all on other matters too, and I just wanted to compliment you all on your fascinating discussions. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 256 Effigy Mounds is a neat little park. lot of people haven't heard of it. people haven't been here. A A lot of But it really is all about American Indians, and we felt very, very strongly that even though the Park has some, what I view as world-class scenery in the upper Mississippi River Valley, view -- spectacular views of the Mississippi River, you know, can be had from, you know, one end of the river to the other. And so we really wanted to highlight the resources that the Park was set aside to preserve, which again, is this large collection of earthen mounds constructed anywhere from 1,000 to 2,000 years ago. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN MARKS: report. Okay. You've heard the Do committee members have ideas to contribute, or would you like to comment on what you heard? Erik? MR. JANSEN: Jim, are you out there (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 257 still? MR. NEPSTAD: MR. JANSEN: Yes. When you have visitors, what would you describe as, one, your goal, and two, what you think actually happens in terms of the difference that people experience for having come? MR. NEPSTAD: Well, what we -- what we try to do is to try to get them to view this landscape as it once existed, which in reality was very different than the way it appears today. It's heavily forested now. Back in the day, it was more of a broken prairie kind of an oak savannah kind of a feel. And so we kind of get them back to viewing it that way and try to get them to somehow relate to the culture that was doing this. Why would they bother constructing these enormous piles of earth? You know, a lot of the animal mounds are over 100 feet in length from head to rear. And some of the bird mounds have wingspans, you know, greater than 150 feet. So an enormous amount of (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 258 labor went into constructing these, and so we try to get them to think about why would a culture do something like this and try to help them in a way connect that similar things that their own ancestors may have done. actually monuments. You know, these are And some of them are telling important stories, the same Mount Rushmore does. So, you know, we try to connect, you know, other cultures to this particular culture that happens to be right in front of them. MR. JANSEN: Are there any artifacts, aerial evidence, cultural icons that have been found there? MR. NEPSTAD: sensitive topic though. There are. It's kind of a A lot of the tribes -- we consult with over 20 American Indian tribes, you know, many of whom claim direct descendency from the folks that constructed these mounds. Many of the mounds are -MR. JENSEN: It could be worse. You could live between New York and New Jersey. MR. NEPSTAD: Yeah, many of these are (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 259 burial mounds. And the fact that they were excavated at all upsets many of the tribes that we work with. And so despite the fact that there are lone artifacts, even human remains that are known to have come out of these mounds, that's not something that we would want to depict. MR. JANSEN: So that's not really part of the experience from visiting there, that these are burial sites? MR. NEPSTEAD: Yeah. It's not something that we choose to really overly emphasize, although we do, you know, like to emphasize that this is a sacred landscape, sacred largely because many of these mounds hold the ancestors of modern day Indian tribes. discussion. And so there's a lot People routinely will ask us, well, you know, how often do you dig into the mounds? You know, we try to gently guide them towards them, well, you know, how would -- you know, how would you feel if a bunch of archeologists descended on the cemetery where your great-great (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 260 grandfather is buried and started digging it up just to see what might be in there. You probably would get upset by that. And so without getting too preachy, we're able to kind of get them to recognize that, you know, even though curiosity did get the best of us in earlier days, that it's not a practice that we engage in any more. MR. JENSEN: The committee will remember designs from one of the Code Talker medals. We didn't end up adopting them, but I then they were appreciated. And those were drawings -- they were cave petroglyphs, as I recall. And we'd asked for symbols, and those symbols were put out there and the designs didn't get adopted. Other than the aerial views of this -and I don't think the committee's probably going to want to do a picture on medal here, but other than the aerial views, are there any other petroglyph kind of symbols on site? MR. NEPSTAD: themselves. No. It's the mound And the mounds themselves are -- you (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 261 know, they -- it's kind of hard to describe them without actually having some, you know, photographs or drawings right in front of people. But they're obviously simplified, but they're still very, very recognizable. They're done in profile, you know, so you're always looking at the animal, you know, kind of lying on its side, or you're looking at the bird from above. And they're very, very recognizable. And, you know, again, that's -- you know, it's literally the name of the park, you know, the term for these things is literally part of the name of the park. that the park exists. And it's the only reason And, you know, that's why we were thinking that something that directly relates to the mounds themselves would be the way to go. MR. JANSEN: MR. NEPSTAD: I see a -And that's that. I'm sure the artists may have some alternative ideas and would certainly be open to them. MR. JANSEN: I see a number of the (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 262 members here kind of going through Google images right now, as I am. So this is essentially kind of a North American equivalent of the South American ant and frog and various other aerial images? MR. NEPSTAD: Yes, yes. You know, and many of those images that you just referenced can be, you know, fairly simple as well, but they're elegant in that simplicity and that's the way I like to look at the mounds too. And I -- that's just my two cents. MR. VIOLA: I'm Herman Viola. I'm with the Museum of the American Indian at the Smithsonian. things. Just curious about a couple of Obviously, this is a religious site for Native peoples. Would there be anything taboo- wise, design-wise that would go on this coin? You had mentioned the place is not visited that often. I would dare say the Indian people are very glad that it's not visited that often. And so, you know, you're kind of walking in two worlds here. So what would you think would be kind of (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 263 inappropriate as a design, or have you given any thought to that? MR. NEPSTAD: Well, again, anything that represents grave goods, I think would not be something that the tribes that we consult with would be -- would enthusiastically embrace. You know, all of this said, you know, I'm going to be meeting with representatives of many of these tribes in just another month. And, you know, I am hoping to find a way to pull them into this conversation too, and although I know, you know, you all have a process for choosing designs and so on and so forth, I would like to be able to pull tribal representatives in at least at the brainstorming stage, and get some feel from them about, you know, what really would work or what definitely couldn't work. MR. VIOLA: idea. I think that's an excellent Do you know if the Indians have their own name for this place that would be in a tribal language? MR. NEPSTAD: If they do, it hasn't been (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 264 shared with us. MR. VIOLA: That makes sense. Okay, thank you. MR. NEPSTAD: Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. LANNIN: Someone else? Mary? I noticed -- God bless Google -- I notice on the logo for the entrance to Effigy Mounds National Monument, you have this stylized bear. MR. NEPSTAD: MR. LANNIN: Yeah. Would that be something that you would like to see somehow integrated into the coin design? I see, without some aerial perspective, I see a real difficult time trying to convey what the Park is. I don't know where the Mississippi in relation to some of these mounds. Perhaps it could be sort of a low-level angle where we recognize what the effigy is with the river in the background. But I really think we have to be almost like a space station view of it, but not quite that high. MR. NEPSTAD: What about the bear? Some of the most iconic (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 265 mound groups -- if you Google on Marching Bear Mound Group -MS. LANNIN: MR. NEPSTAD: Yeah, I can see that photo. -- it's a fantastic grouping of both bird and bear mounds. And it's actually modeled after the Big Dipper. MS. LANNIN: MR. NEPSTAD: Oh, really? There's -- yeah, there's astronomical connections with this particular mound group, which are absolutely fascinating. MS. LANNIN: MR. NEPSTAD: Wonderful. And I could go on for an hour about, you know, what a cool story that that particular mound group may be telling. But once you pull out far enough to pull in all of the mounds that represent the Big Dipper, each individual mound would become so small on the quarter that I -- I'm skeptical that you could grab enough to tell what they are. MS. LANNIN: MR. NEPSTAD: Right. Okay, thank you. Uh-huh. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Anyone else? (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 266 (No response.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: I think that concludes our comments. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Nepstad. MR. NEPSTAD: Great, thanks for your time. MS. STAFFORD: All right. Appreciate it. I'm going to actually move on to the Ozark National Scenic Riverways in Missouri. The Ozark National Scenic Riverways was established in 1964 to protect 134 miles of the current Jacks Forks Rivers in the Ozark Highlands of southeastern Missouri. The Park encompasses over 80,000 acres of unique natural resources, including a worldclass spring system that is unparalleled in North America, more than 400 caves, and other special geologic features. The rivers offer remarkably clean, clear water that is complimented by the breathtaking (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 267 blue shade of the waters of the large springs. The spectacular natural beauty of the area attracts park visitors to participate in a variety of recreational opportunities, such as john boating, canoeing, swimming, and fishing. Hiking, hunting, and horseback riding are also enjoyed across the landscape. In addition to the unique natural features of the Ozarks, the National Park Service preserves the heritage and lifeways of the Ozark culture, which was heavily shaped by the remote and rugged landscape. The Park manages 249 historic structures that are scattered throughout the Park, and also preserves the history and remnants of prehistoric peoples who settled in the region during the past 12,000 years. Through informal discussions with representatives from the Ozark National Scenic Riverways, we've identified the following possible devices for the quarter. Alley Spring -- Alley Spring and Alley (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 268 Mill, a steel roller mill in 1894. And we have with us today, Dena Matteson, management assistant and Public Information Officer with the Ozark National Scenic Riverways. Dena, are you there? MS. MATTESON: Yes, I am. MS. STAFFORD: Great. If you would please address the committee, and if you don't mind, maybe speaking up slightly, that would be great. MS. MATTESON: to be here. Okay. Well, I am pleased Thank you for inviting us to talk about our wonderful national park. We are honored to be selected to -CHAIRMAN MARKS: hearing you. Ma'am, we're not Can you somehow increase your volume? MS. MATTESON: CHAIRMAN MARKS: Is that any better? MS. MATTESON: It's better. I'm just honored to be here and appreciate you all inviting us to talk (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 269 about Ozark National Scenic Riverways and have the opportunity to be featured on a quarter in this America the Beautiful quarter series. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MS. STAFFORD: Okay. So any comments from the committee? CHAIRMAN MARKS: MS. WASTWEET: Yeah, comments? Could you tell me, April, again, the -- it was a mill that you mentioned? MS. STAFFORD: Yes. And perhaps our liaison, Dena, perhaps you could expound on this. One of the possible devices that has been identified for this quarter is Alley Spring and Alley Mill, a steel roller mill built in 1894, So, Dena, I don’t even know if I'm pronouncing that correct, so forgive me if I'm not. If you don't mind giving us some background about that and explain a steel roller mill, that would be wonderful. MS. MATTESON: Okay, yes. Alley Mill was an historic mill for grinding corn and wheat. It was built in 1894. It's slightly different (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 270 than some of the typical mills in the area at that time. It was sort of an advanced technology because the rollers were made of steel and were actually operated by a turban pit that is operated through the flow of the water beneath the mill structure. So it was sort of an advanced technology for the Ozark area. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you for that. think that would be a fine subject matter. I I would just caution the artist to not try to put too much into the picture, to simplify and focus on either just the mill or one of the other items of recreation like a canoe, that sort of thing, without trying to make it a laundry list of items to include on the design and to minimize the scenic. If we see the mill surrounded by hills and trees and water, it's going to get too much. So pare it down to the essential. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. JANSEN: Erik? Are there -- I'm searching for symbols land images here, because as Ms. Was tweet just said, I won't think we want to put a (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 271 picture on this coin. Are there any national -- other national organizations which might use this land or you might affiliate yourself with? For instance, when we look at the national park we're doing, there's the national park symbol. There are also some iconic images of people that have helped found the national parks. Are there any notable people that are associated with the area? MS. MATTESON: No, not in that sense. No, our strongest, I guess, historical figures are really just the cultural background of the Scotch Irish settlers, but we don't have any certain historical figure or person in the founding of the Park that would probably be appropriate. MR. JANSEN: Thank you. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Any other comments? (No response.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. I think that concludes our discussion on Ozark Scenic Riverways. MS. STAFFORD: CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. Thank you very much, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 272 everyone. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Thank you, Dean. I'm going to move on to George Rogers Clark National Historical Park in Indiana. George Rogers Clark Historical Park was named a national park in 1966. The park is located within the city limits of Vincennes, Indiana, adjacent to the Wabash River. The 26- acre site contains the George Rogers Clark Memorial, which commemorates the achievements of Lieutenant Colonel George Rogers Clark and his friend Tiersman (phonetic) during the American Revolution. Following Clark's capture of British posts at Kaskaskia and Cahokia in the Illinois country along the Mississippi River in 1778, he led a small contingent of men in a daunting midwinter march of 157 miles that culminated in the surrender of the British Garrison at Fort Sackville on February 25, 1779. Clark's daring surprise capture of the fort is considered one of the greatest feats of the American Revolution. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 273 The event effectively limited British control of the region and was instrumental in the subsequent establishment of the Northwest Territory, an American expansion west of the Appalachians. The memorial was designed and constructed between 1927 and 1936. It is the largest memorial outside of Washington, D.C., and the largest placed on a battlefield within the U.S. The rotunda boasts seven large murals and a bronze statue of Clark. George Rogers Clark is the older brother of William Clark of Lewis & Clark fame. Through informal discussions with representatives from George Rogers Clark National Historical Park, we've identified the following possible devices for the quarter. Clark's men waiting through chest-high water. A scene of the surrender at the fort. The original fort available in artistic renditions as the fort no longer exists. The current memorial. Or the Clark statue. So we have with us the Superintendent of (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 274 George Rogers Clark National Historical Park, Frank Doughman. Frank, are you with us? MR. DOUGMAN: I am. MS. STAFFORD: Wonderful. Could you say some words to the committee, please? MR. DOUGHMAN: Absolutely. Yeah, like so many of the parks that have come before, we're a small park. We're relatively unknown. No one recognizes that the American Revolution took place in the west. Everything thinks of all those eastern sites. And so we're excited that this is a part of the way that tell our story and spread that word. MS. STAFFORD: CHAIRMAN MARKS: Thank you. Okay, thank you. Are there any comments or any ideas you'd like to join into this discussion? Tom? MR. URAM: elements. Just curious on symbolism and With it being Lewis & Clark, any way that the kill boat would be relative to the Park? (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 275 MR. DOUGHMAN: No, it is no the Lewis & Clark. In fact, that's a common misconception we have. George Rogers Clark is the older brother of William Clark, who was on Lewis & Clark. MR. URAM: make clear. That's one -- okay, wanted to Thank you. MR. DOUGHMAN: Yeah. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. JANSEN: Erik Am I mistaken that the memorial there is in the round? MR. DOUGHMAN: It is. The design and construction is very similar to the Lincoln, except that ours is round. MR. JANSEN: And how is this related to Fort Vincennes? MR. DOUGMAN: Fort. It sits on the site of the The memorial was built for the sesquicentennial of the anniversary of the surrender. site. And so it was built on the actual The original fort disappeared within seven or eight years after it was taken out of use. MR. JANSEN: Were there any iconic (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 276 weapons used by either side, or for that matter, any of the Native Americans that might have taken sides in that battle? MR. DOUGHMAN: Yeah. Actually, interestingly, one of Clark's -- small armies on both sides, rather small battle, but one of the advantages Clark's men had was the use of the American long rifle. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. JANSEN: Anything else, Erik? no, thank you. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Other comments? Herman? MR. VIOLA: Yes. You must have given a lot of thought to what you'd like to see in this design, so what would you think would be, you know, kind of heaven-sent when we just want to throw it out to other people to kind of come up with these ideas? MR. DOUGMAN: We've talked about it amongst the staff and in the community. The monument itself, its main feature are seven murals. They're 16-by-24-foot tall murals. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 277 They're huge. One of the scenes is the iconic image of Clark's men, and that is the men wading through the water carrying their weapons above their heads. And we liked that image and it is portrayed in the memorial itself. MR. VIOLA: iconic image. Yeah, that's pretty much the I mean, when I was going to school, you know, the textbooks always had that drawing in there, and it was things that kids ewed and awed about, how did they do that in that cold water, and how did they manage to save our country this way. image. So I do think that would make a very nice So good, thank you. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. JANSEN: Thank you, Herman. Is there a visual image here that utilizes the letter V, as in Vincennes? MR. DOUGMAN: MR. JANSEN: Boy, not that I'm aware. Okay. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MS. WASTWEET: Thank you. Heidi? I'm looking at some images of the Park, and the memorial, I think, is (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 278 a nice sculptural image that would read well on the quarter. However, I think the subject of the men wading through the water is probably a subject much better suited for a painting than the pallet of the quarter. I don't think that's going to read as well, in my opinion. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Anyone else? (No response.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. That concludes our discussion on that matter. MS. STAFFORD: CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. MS. STAFFORD: April. So finally, we have the Frederick Douglass National Historic Site in the District of Columbia. The Frederick Douglass National Historic Site was established in 1962 to preserve the home and legacy of Frederick Douglass, a runaway slave, abolitionist, civil rights advocate, author, and statesman. Douglass lived in this home from 1877 until his death in 1985. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 279 Frederick Douglass was born into slavery on a plantation on the eastern shore of Maryland in 1818. By 15, he was a literate, independent teenager who educated other slaves. In 1838, he disguised himself as a sailor and boarded a train to New York City where he declared himself a free man. Douglass turned his efforts to helping those still in slavery. He was an impressive orator who traveled across the north speaking against slavery. He wrote his first autobiography in which he revealed his original name, his owner's name, and where he was born. So he was now in danger of being returned to slavery and fled to the British Isles. There, he continued to speak against slavery, and ultimately, British supporters purchased his freedom. Douglass returned to the United States, and during the Civil War, recruited AfricanAmericans to fight in the Union Army. He continued to write and speak against slavery. He met with Abraham Lincoln to advocate for African- (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 280 American troops, and encouraged Lincoln to see the war as a chance to transform the country. Following the Civil War, Douglass moved to his home in Washington, D.C. He served as the U.S. Marshal for the District of Columbia, the District's Registrar of Deeds, and the U.S. Minister to Haiti, and charged affairs to the Dominican Republic. He continued to work to expand civil rights in the country until his death. Through informal discussions with representatives from the Frederick Douglass National Historic Site, we've identified the following possible devices for the quarter. An image of the Frederick Douglass National Historic Site sitting atop of a hill overlooking the city of Washington, D.C. Or, a distinguished image of Douglas himself. I saved this site for last because we were told that our liaison would not be able to be with us, but let me just make sure. Our liaison from the Frederick Douglass (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 281 National Historic Site is not with us; is that correct? Okay. So just over -- he's actually teaching a class right now and was unable to join. So, Mr. Chairman, I'll turn it back to the committee for discussion. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. Are there any comments? MR. HERMAN: I think a portrait would be ideal because I doubt most people have any idea what he looked like, and so I think that would be very good. And maybe even one of him meeting with Abraham Lincoln. I think that's always a catch. But, I mean, the house is kind of an obvious one, so... CHAIRMAN MARKS: MS. WASTWEET: Heidi. I would just like to mention that dealing with a portrait, we have the danger of running into a two-headed coin. So when we portray him, let's just be careful that it's not just a head or bust, more full body so that it doesn't look like a two-headed coin. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 282 MR. JANSEN: That's probably a bit of a challenge, because if I remember that portrait right, it's an iconic portrait, actually, if I've got it right. And I was sitting here trying to envision this thing and everything seemed to hone in on the portrait, although, obviously, there are ton of images around self-education, his becoming a statesman, all of those things, so there's a rich pallet there. But I think the icon of his portrait probably is the -- oh, yeah, someone's holding it up and it's this very bushy-haired gentleman. FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. JANSEN: How did you describe it? FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. JANSEN: that. A nimbus of hair. Nimbus. A nimbus of hair; I knew I'm feeling like a nimbusal (phonetic). FEMALE SPEAKER: MR. JANSEN: I didn't say that. I apologize. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay, thank you, Erik. Any other comments? Robert. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 283 MR. HOGE: Gary, I think if we were careful, we could have a full-standing figure with an adequate portrait. And since he was known as the great orator, maybe showing him to declaiming, gesturing with a recognizable portrait. He's significant and his nimbate (phonetic) hair would certainly show up even if the image was small. CHAIRMAN MARKS: That might be a great way to approach it. Anyone else? (No response.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. I think that brings us to conclusion for our discussion on the 2017 American the Beautiful Quarter Program concepts and themes. MS. STAFFORD: CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. What that means is that we're now moving on to the discussion on candidate designs for the 26 theme Ronald Regan Presidential Dollar Coin. So, April, do you have a report for us? MS. STAFFORD: Yes, I do. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 284 DISCUSS CONCEPT/THEME FOR THE RONALD REAGAN PRESIDENTIAL DOLLAR COIN PROGRAM MS. STAFFORD: It is public law 109-145, the Presidential Dollar Coin Act of 2005, that requires the Secretary of the Treasury to issue four Presidential Dollar Coins per year in the order in which they served. The program terminates when each President has been so honored, subject to a limitation that such coins may be issued only to honor Presidents who have been deceased for more than two years. As such, in 2016, the Secretary of the Treasury will mint and issue Presidential Dollar Coins in commemoration of Presidents Nixon, Ford, and Reagan in the order of their period of service. Designs featuring Nixon and Ford have already been presented to the advisory committees. In accordance with the Act, the obverse shall bear the name and likeness of a President of the United States, the order in which the President served, and the date or years of the term of office of such President. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 285 Throughout the Presidential Dollar Coin Program, the reverse shall bear a dramatic image of the Statue of Liberty. Today, we have eight obverse designs for your consideration. They are all portraits, of course, of Ronald Reagan. Here we have obverse 1. Obverse 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. Thank you, April. So are there any technical questions before we move on to evaluating the designs? Erik? MR. JANSEN: I had a question for Don. This is a different kind of decision than we've been looking at here earlier today. Are there any issues that would say -and I'm just randomly picking -- that would cause you as the sculpture or someone acting in that role, to prefer, say, design 1 over design 3, or for that matter, say 6? Three fairly similar frontal portraits, are there any sculpting that (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 286 would differentiate those in your mind? MR. EVERHART: MR. JANSEN: I don't see any, no. I didn't either. MR. EVERHART: I mean, there are various designs showing the same basic pose and slightly different expression, but I think that's the major difference is, you know, the attitude of the portrait. MR. JANSEN: Yeah. MR. EVERHART: But, you know, they're pretty much the same. CHAIRMAN MARKS: for you. medals. Don, I have a question We don't often see teeth on coins and In fact, I think we went back and looked at all the Presidents we've done; I'm not sure any of them show any teeth. I'm just wondering if there might be any kind of challenge with showing them, because my understanding is, sculpting teeth on a coin, sometimes it just doesn't show well. MR. EVERHART: I don't see a problem. One of his -- one of the characteristics of Ronald Reagan's smile was, you know, what you see here. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 287 And if you don't put a lot of emphasis on the teeth, and by that I mean, delineate each one, you don't draw attention to it and you just kind of keep it smoothed over. If it's a real wide open toothy grin, no, I don't think it looks good. But when it's just, you know, slightly parted mouth and you see some teeth, I don't think that's an issue. It's not for me anyway. CHAIRMAN MARKS: All right, thank you. Other questions? MR. SCARINCI: Let me ask a question. The Reagan people have like this big group that gets Reagan's name and picture on things. Did anybody weigh in on this from Reagan so we could save a lot of time? MS. STAFFORD: So we reach out with this entire program to, obviously, the First Ladies' Library, the Presidential Libraries; in this case, also the Foundation, and we did not receive any feedback on this portfolio. MR. SCARINCI: CHAIRMAN MARKS: I'm surprised. Okay. Okay. Any other (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 288 questions? MS. STAFFORD: That's not to say that there might be feedback coming later, but at this point, we have not received anything, but it has been shared. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. JANSEN: Erik? I'm curious. This was kind of a late add-on in a reinterpretation of the law. And I'm curious if the Mint has any estimates as to what the production volumes might be on this coin. If they would vary from the current levels, or for any reason, you might have a feeling what they might be, MS. STAFFORD: There haven't been discussions of that at present. MR. JANSEN: Thank you. CHAIRMAN MARKS: All right. If there aren't any other questions, I think the way I'd like to handle this one is whoever goes first, we'll just start moving to the left. So I see Tom put up his hand. So, Tom, we'll start with you and then (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 289 we'll come over to Donald. MR. URAM: Well, yes, certainly. (Laughter.) MR. URAM: I'll have you know that it is an honor for me to make a comment on this because I was President Reagan's youngest delegate at the 1980 convention. And therefore, I look at these images just as Mike would look at the images of TR and know those images. And I did not know TR. (Laughter.) MR. URAM: But as I look at these, I can tell you that number 1 is obviously, I think, the choice because it's the presidential-looking one. Number 3 is not bad. Number 8 is a campaign-looking issue. Number 2 is a lookout of the convention. Number 4 is the inaugural medal almost. And number 5 is when he talked to the Russians and was frustrated with them. And -- so with that, I just think on a coin, I'm looking at 1, 3, and 8. And I think number 1 is really the Presidential portrait to (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 290 begin with, if you want to simplify this as Don would do, I would certainly make a motion that we just go with that, unless there are obviously further comments. But make -- MALE SPEAKER: Make a motion (inaudible). MR. URAM: -- as his youngest delegate, it's an honor for me then to make the motion that we choose obverse number 1 as the selection. MS. LANNIN: And I second that. MR. SCARINCI: Oh, I was going to have the privilege of seconding it as a card-carrying Democrat who has never voted from a Republican -MR. URAM: From New Jersey. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Is there a second to that motion? MS. LANNIN: I second. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Mary. Okay, the motion is to recommend design number 1. Discussion? I'll start the discussion. Design 1 and design 3, I think are probably coming from the same example, whatever (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 291 the artist we're looking at, the reference, yeah. To me, 3 appears to be a fuller -- it's certainly larger on the pallet, so I think it makes a little more presence. I mean, it's minor, but I'm just wondering why 1 over 3. Tom, can you address that? MR. URAM: I put them both out, and I agree with you, 1 and 3, they are so close. But I kept gravitating back to number 1 as what I remember and look as the image. 1 and 3 are the choices, in my opinion. MS. LANNIN: 3 is airbrushed. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. URAM: Yeah, is that what it is? MS. LANNIN: MR. UAM: Are we -- 3's airbrushed. There's something about it. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Well, I'm wondering if -- is it the drawing and how is it going to relate on the sculpt? I mean, for me, I think 3 is probably the better because it's going to be a fuller image, filling up more of the coin and just in my sense, a tad more balance. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 292 MR. URAM: 1 just looked --appeared to be more life-like in relation to it. Greg had a comment, I think. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. WEINMAN: Okay. Just -- CHAIRMAN MARKS: Well, my comment is, if there is a difference, number 1 is smaller and he looks a little older and a little more haggard, so anyway. Other comments? MR. WEINMAN: Real quickly, just to clarify, when you're asking about reference materials or source materials. None of these are based on a specific reference material. One of the advantages of, you know, those of you who were around when we began this program with George Washington and James Madison and some of our not as well painted Presidents in the early days, where there were limited reference materials. That's not the case with Ronald Reagan. There are millions of photographs of Ronald Reagan. And I can tell you from looking at the reference materials that the artists submitted (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 293 with this, these are all composites. They're all original designs that don't look specifically like any single reference photograph because, frankly, there are just so many of him and that's what he looked like. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. Other comments? Robert? MR. HOGE: Gary. I have to agree with you, I think number 3 is the one that appeals the most. Reagan. To me, this one looks as I remember And also I think maybe that I remember him from seeing his campaign button images. Maybe this is one of those, or derived partly from it. But I think it's the most handsome of all of them. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. HOGE: 3? 3. CHAIRMAN MARKS: I happen to agree with you, thank you. Mike? MR. MORAN: I literally did not look at the artistic part of this. we remember the man. Like everybody else, And I felt like number 1 got (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 294 it done. MS. LANNIN: Number 1 for me because that's -- when somebody says Reagan, that's the image that springs to mind. Number 3 seems to be, even though his face is a little bit fuller and it might strike up better, it seems like it's 90 percent Reagan and 10 percent imagination, where number 1 is to me 100 percent Ronald Reagan MR. VIOLA: That was my impression as well. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: is more representational. I think number 1 If you look at his hairline, his skull, the shape of his head, I think it's more true to what it -- as opposed to number 3. 3 is good, but I think 1 is better. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MS. WASTWEET: Heidi? Thank you. I'm not opposed to the motion on the table, but I do want to go on record to say that if this were a drawing contest, I would vote for number 1, because I think it is the superior drawing, but this is not a drawing contest. This is really going to come (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 295 down to the sculpt. And essentially, design 1, 3 and 6 are the identical for all purposes, identical design. And we are supposed to be looking at these as a design. So I am not comfortable rewarding one artist preference over another for three identical designs, but that is the task before us, and we must do that. So I just wanted to go on record to say that, but I will be supporting the motion. In regards to the teeth, you all know that I'm staunchly against teeth on coin portraits. In this case, the teeth are very minimal, and I think we can get by with it. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Anyone else? Erik? MR. JANSEN: I would share the concern about kind of king-making with the artist that happens to get the nod here. I don't know how to deal with that, but I think it would be disappointing to the artists that aren't chosen. So I'll leave that up to the Mint to figure out. Design number 6 doesn't have teeth, it (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 296 has an open mouth. I'll put that out there. And, please, no spaghetti hair. CHAIRMAN MARKS: You know, I guess I wonder about all that, folks. I mean, if I look at design number 1, it's a little different. His head's turned just a little bit differently than, say, number 3. And I'd go back to Greg's comments that these are all composites. Maybe they happen to look alike because there are so many images of Ronald Reagan and the artists are so familiar with what he looks like. I think in some regard, you're bound to get some similarity across the different designs. So I'm not sure it's fair to say -because we were told, it wasn't the case, that they're all looking at a single resource, to come up with these three, meaning, 1, 3, and 6. So I don't know if we should be too concerned that we're going to award this to one artist when the others look similar. I think we should award or recommendation to the one we believe is most appropriate for this project. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 297 Erik. MR. JANSEN: I think with all due respect to our process, I see a failed vote for number 2 because they prefer side portraits, or potentially 4, right? number 3. I personally like design I think it's a little more complementary potentially, a little younger. like his hair, better in number 3. I Please, no spaghetti hair. CHAIRMAN MARKS: comments? Okay. Any other Draw comments on the motion that's on the table, or on the floor? (No response.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. If there aren't any, then the motion is to recommend RR-01 for the Ronald Reagan $1.00 coin on the obverse. So all those in favor of the motion, please raise your hand. (Show of hands.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: Five. All those opposed. (Show of hands.) (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 298 CHAIRMAN MARKS: voting? one. Three -- who's not Are there extensions? Five, three and I'm missing a vote. MS. LANNIN: Okay. I vote for number 1. Let's everybody raise their hand again. (Show of hands.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: five, six. One, two, three, four, I'll change my vote. Opposed. Two. Two? Seven. Are you abstaining? MALE SPEAKER: CHAIRMAN MARKS: (Inaudible.) we have a recommendation. Seven, two, one. Okay, Thank you, all. Next item on the agenda, and our last one, is a discussion on concepts and themes for the Nancy Reagan First Spouse Gold Coin and Medal Program. April. DISCUSS CONCEPT/THEME FOR THE NANCY REAGAN FIRST SPOUSE GOLD COIN AND MEDAL PROGRAM MS. STAFFORD: As you know, the First Spouse Program accompanies the Presidential Dollar (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 299 Coin Program. The legislation, unlike the Presidential Dollar Coin Legislation, does not require that the spouse be deceased prior to the issuance of the coin. So Mrs. Reagan will be honored with a coin and medal at the same time President Reagan's coin is released. We worked with the First Ladies' Library to create this background document. We reached out to the Reagan Library, who referred us to the website. And the Reagan Foundation has not responded as yet to requests. So on to the design concept background. First, just say no. During Nancy Reagan's term as First Lady, one of the major problems in the nation was substance abuse among children and young adults. Nancy made this problem everyone's responsibility with her Just Say No Campaign, designed to prevent children from even trying drugs. Mrs. Reagan saw this as a worldwide issue, inviting spouses of world leaders to a White House conference and to an additional (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 300 meeting later in 1985 during the Union's anniversary to discuss the problem. She was the first First Lady to address the General Assembly of the United Nations. When the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1986, Public Law 99-570, was signed into law on October 27, 1986, Nancy saw this as her personal victory. Mrs. Reagan considered herself her husband's personal protector. Following the assassination attempt in 1981, she made a point to know his schedule and with whom he would be meeting. Mrs. Reagan was more suspicious after this event and took care to ensure that her husband was properly protected. Mrs. Reagan promoted a Foster Grandparents Program designed to match up children who need love and grandparents, elderly people who need to feel wanted. By 1985, nearly 19,000 foster grandparents served 65,000 children throughout the United States. And lastly, as First Lady of the State of California, Mrs. Reagan took great care to (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 301 ensure that Vietnam War Veterans were properly welcomed home as heroes. She visited hospitals and wrote a weekly newspaper column about military families. She worked closely with returning prisoners of war and their families and continues to believe that her work with POW's and persons missing in action was the highpoint of her years as First Lady of California. Mr. Chairman, back to the committee for discussion. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Okay. Do we have anyone who would like to discuss the themes for the Nancy Reagan Coin and Medal? MR. SCARINCI: I'll just two things. I don't think the California this is relevant and -because we should be dealing with what she did as First Lady. And thing number two, I think she did enough that we should really focus on her and not on her in relation to Ronald Reagan. And the final thing that I would want to say in general, is I really think this is an (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 302 extraordinary -- I think this is the only second time in history that we're producing a coin with an image of a living person. The first time was the Maria Shriver Commemorative and -MS. STAFFORD: Eunice Shriver. MR. SCARINCI: Eunice Shriver -- Eunice Shriver Commemorative. And I think, you know, in light of that, we should -- the Mint staff should make every conceivable effort to communicate directly with the former First Lady and get her input on, you know, the portrait, as well as the narrative for what she would like to be remembered for since we have a unique opportunity and, in fact, the only opportunity in this entire series to actually speak to a living person -- a living spouse to ask them, what would you most like to be remembered for, because this coin is what she will be remembered for. years. And it will last for 1,000 So I think it's very important that we communicate with her, you know, in the narrative stage. CHAIRMAN MARKS: I'll just add to that, (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 303 Donald, that actually, she'd be the third living person. Calvin Coolidge was the first when he was portrayed with George Washington on the 1926 Sesquicentennial of the American Independence Half Dollar, so -- but third is still significant. So anyone else? MR. MORAN: on what Don said. Comments? I'll just second the motion These families, as I saw from the Roosevelts, do care. half-life of uranium. And coins do have the And I think it behooves us as the Mint to do everything possible to get the input of somebody out there on the staff. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MS. WASTWEET: Heidi. I too agree with what Donald said, but I would like to add, of the topics mentioned, I think the last appealing to me would be her role as protector of the President. I would recommend against focusing on that subject. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. HOGE: Robert. It seems to me we should not exclude portions of her career prior to her term (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 304 as First Lady either, because we are focusing upon her as a person rather than simply as the First Lady, right? MR. SCARINI: MR. HOGE: That's not what we did -- She was his spouse for many more years than that term in office. MR. SCARINI: Yeah, but the series is about them as First Lady, and I think consistently through the series, we've depicted something that the spouse did as the First Lady. So I think we should be consistent. MR. HOGE: None of the others address something from before or after their husband's term in office? CHAIRMAN MARKS: Actually, I mean, I don't know what my opinion on it is, but as far as images of a first spouse assisting the President, that's not the first time that would have happened. The one that immediately comes to mind is Woodrow Wilson and the image we picked of that one. So you all may be right and maybe we shouldn't focus on that, but we're not doing (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 305 anything we haven't done already. MR. WEINMAN: clarify. Gary. Yeah, just to In fact, the legislation specifically says, "The images are emblematic of the life and work of the First Spouse," who image is born in the obverse. So, no, that certainly doesn't limit to their term as First Spouse. And, in fact, I can think of at least a couple other ones where there have been youthful images of the First Spouse in their early work or their early romance with President who would eventually be President, et cetera. CHAIRMAN MARKS: We've been all over the board on what we've done with First Spouses. So, anyway, any other comments or input? MR. HOGE: We're thinking of a number of other examples, the careers of First Ladies when they are honored for something they did beyond that term. CHAIRMAN MARKS: MR. JANSEN: staff. Erik? A question of the Mint Is it possible to actually solicit a (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 306 letter from her as to what she would like? I mean, firsthand, this is what I would love to see. MS. STAFFORD: We can absolutely try. And we have worked, and we continue to work through the libraries and the foundation. And again, so far we've received this information here. CHAIRMAN MARKS: Anyone else? The final First Spouse coin of the series, probably. (No response.) CHAIRMAN MARKS: with that discussion. Okay. Then we are done And, in fact, we have reached the end of our agenda far earlier than we had projected on the agenda. So I want to thank everyone for accomplishing a great deal of work today. it was all very well handled by all of you. I think Thank you to the staff for all of your preparation and your support of us through -- well, before and during the meeting. For those of you heading back tonight or tomorrow, wish you Godspeed, safety, and until we (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 307 meet again, I hope you all do very well. And tomorrow morning, the committee will be convening, I believe, in this room; is that right, April? MS. STAFFORD: That's correct. CHAIRMAN MARKS: In this room, hopefully to conduct a public input session with folks here at the A&A Money Show. I've planned a PowerPoint presentation that gives a somewhat brief overview of the committee, what our function is, what our legal basis is by statute, what we do, and what we don't do. And then it calls on members of the public to give us their feedback about issues concerning coinage. So that begins at 9:00, runs through 11:00, at the latest. evening. So until then, have a good And if I don't see you until our next meeting, Godspeed. We are adjourned. (Whereupon, at 4:29 p.m., the committee meeting was concluded.) (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 308 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION I, VALORI WEBER, hereby certify that I am not the Court Reporter who reported the following proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this proceeding using the Court Reporter's recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a true, correct, and complete transcription of said proceeding. _______________ ________________________ March 13, 2015 VALORI WEBER Transcriptionist (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014