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CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 1 CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE Moderated by Mary Lannin, CCAC Chair Tuesday, March 23, 2021 2:00 p.m. Remote Proceeding Washington, DC 20001 Reported by: Natalie Schmitting (by videoconference) Job No. CS4477101 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 2 A P P E A R A N C E S List of Attendees: Mary Lannin, CCAC Chairperson (by videoconference) Sam Gill, Committee Member (by videoconference) Dr. Lawrence Brown, Committee Member (by videoconference) Dr. Dean Kotlowski, Committee Member (by videoconference) Thomas Uram, Committee Member (by videoconference) Mike Moran, Committee Member (by videoconference) Robin Salmon, Committee Member (by videoconference) Donald Scarinci, Committee Member (by videoconference) Dennis Tucker, Committee Member (by videoconference) Dr. Peter van Alfen, Committee Member (by videoconference) Arthur “Art” Bernstein, Committee Member (by videoconference) April Stafford, Chief, Office of Design Management (by videoconference) Megan Sullivan, Senior Design Specialist (by videoconference) Boneza Hanchock, Design Manager (by videoconference) Pam Borer, Design Manager (by videoconference) Russell Evans, Design Manager (by videoconference) Joseph Menna, Mint Chief Engraver (by videoconference) www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 3 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont’d) Ron Harrigal, Manager of Design and Engraving (by videoconference) Jennifer Warren, Director of Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs and Liaison to the CCAC (by videoconference) Greg Weinman, Senior Legal Counsel and Counsel to the CCAC (by videoconference) Betty Birdsong, Deputy Director of Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs (by videoconference) Elizabeth Young, Attorney Advisor and attorney assigned to the Merchant Mariners of the World War II Congressional Gold Medal Act (by videoconference) William G. McDonald, MARAD - Emory S. Land Chair for Merchant Marine Affairs Joint Military Operations Department, U.S. Naval War College (by videoconference) Brandon Hall, Senior Associate Editor of Coin Update and Mint News Blog (by videoconference) Mike Unser, Founder and Editor of CoinNews Media Group, LLC (by videoconference) www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 4 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont’d) Maggie Judkins, Editor of Numismatic News (by videoconference) www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 5 P R O C E E D I N G S CHAIRPERSON: I call to order this meeting of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee for Tuesday, March 23, 2021. This is a two-day meeting. The second part will take place tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. Eastern Standard Time -- Eastern Daylight Time, I guess. I would like to remind each member of the Committee to mute his or her phone or microphone on the Webex program when not talking and to remember to announce your name at the beginning of each time you speak. Additionally, I remind the public that this is a listening only hearing for the public. Before we begin, I’d like to introduce the members of the Committee. Please respond “present” when I call your name: Sam Gill. MR. GILL: Present. CHAIRPERSON: Lawrence Brown. MR. BROWN: Present. CHAIRPERSON: Dean Kotlowski. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 6 MR. KOTLOWSKI: CHAIRPERSON: MR. URAM: Present. Thomas Uram. Present. CHAIRPERSON: Michael Moran. MR. MORAN: Present. CHAIRPERSON: MS. SALMON: Robin Salmon Present. Donald Scarinci. CHAIRPERSON: MR. SCARINCI: Present. CHAIRPERSON: MR. TUCKER: Dennis Tucker. Present. Peter van Alfen. CHAIRPERSON: MR. VAN ALFEN:Present. CHAIRPERSON: Art Bernstein. Unmute yourself, Art. We can see you, but I need -MR. BERNSTEIN: CHAIRPERSON: Present. Okay. I'm Mary Lannin, Chair of the CCAC. So I believe we have a quorum. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: CHAIRPERSON: We do. And the agenda for www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 7 today’s portion of the public meeting we will have acceptance of the letters to the Secretary and approval of the minutes from our January 19, 2021, meeting, as well as -- the second part is a review and discussion of obverse and reverse candidate designs for the Merchant Mariners of World War II Congressional Gold Medal authorized by P.L. 116-125. So before we begin our proceedings, I would like to ask the Mint Liaison to the CCAC, Ms. Jennifer Warren, do we have any members of the press on the call today? MS. WARREN: Yes. We have Brandon Hall, senior associate editor of Coin Update and Mint News Blog; Mike Unser, founder and editor of Coin News Media Group, LLC; and Maggie Judkins, editor of the Numismatic News. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Jennifer. And so for the record I would like to confirm that the following Mint staff are on the call today. Please indicate “present” after I call your name. April Stafford, Chief, Office of Design www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 8 Management. MS. STAFFORD: CHAIRPERSON: Present. Megan Sullivan, Senior Design Specialist. MS. SULLIVAN: CHAIRPERSON: Manager. Present. Boneza Hanchock, Design Boneza, I can see your name. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: She’s on. She’s having audio issues. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, Okay. Thank you. Pam Borer, Design Manager. MS. BORER: Present. CHAIRPERSON: Roger Vasquez, Design Manager. MS. STAFFORD: Not present. Will be joining us later, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Russell Evans, Design Manager. MR. EVANS: Present. CHAIRPERSON: Joe Menna, Mint Chief Engraver. MR. MENNA: Present. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 9 Ron Harrigal, Manager of CHAIRPERSON: Design and Engraving. MR. HARRIGAL: CHAIRPERSON: Present. Jennifer Warren, Director of Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs and Liaison to the CCAC. MS. WARREN: Present. CHAIRPERSON: Greg Weinman, Senior Legal Counsel and Counsel to the CCAC. MR. WEINMAN: Good afternoon, Mary. CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, Greg. Present. Betty Birdsong, Deputy Director of Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs. MS. BIRDSONG: Present. CHAIRPERSON: Elizabeth Young, Attorney Advisor and attorney assigned to the Merchant Mariners of World War II Congressional Gold Medal Act. MS. YOUNG: Present. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Liz. And, finally, the following liaisons who should be on the call today for the Merchant www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 10 Mariners of World War II Congressional Gold Medal: We have Mr. William G. McDonald of MARAD for the Emory S. Land Chair for the Merchant Marine Affairs Joint Military Operations Department, U.S. Naval War College; and his colleague, Mr. Tony Fisher, Deputy Associate for the Commercial Sealift, United States Maritime Administration at the Department of Transportation. Are you with us, gentlemen? MR. MCDONALD: McDonald, I'm here. This is Bill And can you hear me? CHAIRPERSON: you. Yes. Yes, I can. Nice to see Is your compatriot with you? MR. MCDONALD: Tony has been delayed. He may not be able to join us. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Well, thank you very much for stopping by. MR. MCDONALD: CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Okay. I would like to thank everybody for joining us today. All right. Mint. I’d like to begin with the Are there any issues that need to be addressed www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 11 before we start? Don’t overwhelm yourselves, you guys. JENNIFER WARREN: CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Nothing. The first item on our agenda is the review and approval of the minutes and the Secretary’s letters from our January 19, 2021, meeting. Are there any comments at all on the documents? Hearing none, is there a motion to approve the minutes and the letters? MR. BROWN: So moved. CHAIRPERSON: Say your name, please. MR. BROWN: Lawrence Brown. MR. TUCKER: CHAIRPERSON: Dennis Tucker. And, Dennis, you're the second? All right. Thank you very much. All those in favor, please signify by saying “aye.” UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Aye. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Aye. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Aye. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 12 CHAIRPERSON: Any objections to the motion? Hearing none, without objection the minutes and letters are approved. All right. Now we're going to begin to move to consideration of the obverse and reverse of candidate design for the Merchant Mariners of World War II Congressional Gold Medal authorized by P.L. 116-125. April Stafford will present the portfolio designs for this medal. April. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. The Merchant Mariners of World War II Congressional Gold Medal Act awards a Congressional Gold Medal to the American Merchant Mariners who served during World War II in recognition of their dedicated and vital service during that conflict. The US Merchant Marine is overseen by the U.S. Department of Transportation’s Maritime Administration, also known as MARAD, and consists of privately-owned, U.S.-registered merchant vessels that provide waterborne transportation for passengers and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 13 cargo moving in domestic and international commerce. Collectively, the Merchant Marine supports not only America’s ocean and inland waterways trade, but also disaster relief and U.S. Department of Defense requirements for deployment and sustainment of our forces. The Merchant Marine is not a military service but acts as an auxiliary to DoD in times of conflict, as was the case during the Second World War. During World War II, the U.S. Merchant Marine conducted the greatest sealift effort, the use of cargo ships for the deployment of military assets, in history. A vast fleet of American ships, built in the United States and crewed by American civilian mariners, deployed our fighting forces across the globe, supplied them in the fight against the enemy, and brought them home again when victory was won. Although not a part of the U.S. Military, the mariners of our Merchant Marine suffered casualty rates often exceeding those of the U.S. Armed Forces. To honor their service, World War II mariners were granted veteran status in 1988. In developing the portfolio of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 14 candidate designs that you’ll see today, the Mint worked closely with our liaison, Bill McDonald, then director of Sealift Support for MARAD, and a stakeholder committee to convene to identify appropriate concepts and ensure historical and technical accuracy. Multiple designs are preferred by the liaison, and those preferences are noted in the design description I'll move through this afternoon. Generally, the liaison prefers designs that feature the mariners on the obverse and designs that feature the Liberty ships or convoys or the Merchant Marine emblem itself for the reverse. The U.S. Commission of Fine Arts met last Thursday and recommended Obverse 6 and Reverse 8 from this portfolio. Both designs are among those identified by our liaison as preferences. So we are very pleased to have Bill McDonald, our liaison for this program with us on the call. Mr. McDonald, would you like to say a few words to the Committee? MR. MCDONALD: I would. delighted to be here with you today. First, I'm And I want to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 15 thank the Committee, the outstanding team of the U.S. Mint, the members of the stakeholder committee we convened to support the men’s efforts to ensure a superb design. And then, finally, I’d like to thank MARAD leadership and several people from my staff when I was Director of Sealift Support who were invaluable. And that’s Devida Midget who’s is Merits, Awards, and Medals Director, Manager, as well as Katrina McRay. The ability to have participated in an effort to design a medal to honor our World War II Mariners is truly one of the great honors of my career. And I want to especially mention to you the endurance and the courage and the incredible performance of these mariners during World War II, and for the ones who are living today to be honored with such a medal I think is an outstanding achievement for the United States. Thank you. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you so much. So, Madam Chair, if it’s okay with you, I'll go ahead and move through the obverse candidate www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 16 designs. CHAIRPERSON: Absolutely, April. Please go ahead. MS. STAFFORD: with Obverse 1. All right. We'll start Obverse 1, it’s a Liberty ship en route to deliver its cargo to American fighting forces overseas. Four Merchant Mariners representing some of the numerous jobs aboard ship are depicted. Arced around the border is the inscription “MERCHANT MARINERS OF WORLD WAR II.” Note that this is a preferred design of the liaison. Obverse 2 features four Merchant Mariners from World War II -- a steward, an engineer, a deckhand, and an officer. Below the men is the silhouette of a Liberty ship with the inscription “MERCHANT MARINERS OF WORLD WAR II.” The additional inscription is “ACT OF CONGRESS 2020.” Obverse 3 depicts profiles of four Merchant Mariners who are dressed for their assigned roles on the ship. them. A Liberty ship is depicted beneath Encircling the border are the inscriptions “FULL AHEAD TO VICTORY” and “MERCHANT MARINERS OF www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 17 WORLD WAR II.” Beneath the ship is the additional inscription “1941-1945.” Obverses 4 and 4A show four Mariners -an engineman, a steward, deckhand, and officer -looking to the right, the direction of the Liberty ship below is traveling it navigates rough waters. The officer looks ahead through binoculars, seeing other ships in the convoy. His view of the convoy is seen in a circular inset below next to the inscription “FULL AHEAD TO VICTORY.” This is Design 4. And 4A, the same design simply removing the inset. Obverse 5 focuses on the men who served with valor -- four Merchant Mariners who represent an engineer, an officer, a deckhand, and a steward. Triangles on the border represent the cardinal directions and the many places the Merchant Marines delivered troops and supplies. Inscriptions around the border are “COURAGE,” “ENDURANCE,” “HONOR,” and “DEDICATION,” and “MERCHANT MARINERS OF WORLD WAR II.” Obverse 6 depicts Merchant Mariners, representing an engineer, a helmsman, an officer, and a deckhand, with the bow of a Liberty ship in the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 18 background. On the right side is the inscription ”MERCHANT MARINERS OF WORLD WAR II.” This is also a preferred design of the liaison, and it’s also the recommended of the U.S. Commission of Fine Arts. Obverse 8 features four Merchant Mariners -- an engineer, deckhand, cook, and an officer -- standing at ease on the deck of a Liberty ship. In the background, another Liberty ship in the convoy can be seen. Encircling the design are the inscriptions “ACT OF CONGRESS 2020” and “MERCHANT MARINERS OF WORLD WAR II.” Again, this is a preferred design of the liaison. Obverse 9 portrays a Merchant Mariner standing proudly beside cargo that will be delivered to troops overseas. In the background is a Liberty ship loaded with cargo. At the top of the design is the inscription “WE DELIVER” in honor of the many Merchant Mariners of World War II who braved the sea and enemy action to deliver supplies and equipment to U.S. forces globally. Obverses 12 and 12A depict a Liberty ship underway to deliver its cargo during www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 19 World War II. The enemy planes overhead illustrate one of the many dangers these ships faced during their transport missions. Around the borders are the inscriptions “MERCHANT MARINERS OF WORLD WAR II” and “1942-1945.” The planes in Obverse 12 as designed here appear slightly lower in the sky and closer to the Liberty ship when compared to those in obverse 12A seen here. Obverses 13 and 13A depict a convoy of Liberty ships crossing the ocean to deliver supplies in support of the war effort. The included inscription is “MERCHANT MARINERS OF WORLD WAR II.” Design of Obverse 13 as seen here includes a rope border arcing across the bottom of the design. We'll move on to 13A. 13A is a preferred design of the liaison. 13B and 13C, these designs repeat the same concepts but with more streamlined ships. That concludes the candidate designs for the obverse. I'll move on to the reverse designs. Starting with Reverse No. 2. This www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 20 design depicts cargo from a Liberty ship as it is offloaded at its destination port. A Merchant Mariner captain stands proudly after the dangerous voyage is complete. An American flag is seen behind the ship. And at the bottom of the design are the inscriptions “MERCHANT MARINERS OF WORLD WAR II” and “1941-1945.” The additional inscription of “ACT OF CONGRESS 2020” arcs across the bottom of the border. Reverse 3 depicts the cargo from a Liberty ship being offloaded. The inscriptions are “WE DELIVER” and “ACT OF CONGRESS 2020.” This is a preferred design of the liaison. Moving on to Reverses 4 and 4A, these designs feature a Liberty ship and its successful delivery of cargo. An Army vehicle is in the process of being delivered to the dock, while additional cargo is unloaded in the background. The inscription “WE DELIVER” is adjacent to a globe showing simplified routes traveled by the Merchant Mariners during World War II. The additional inscription is “ACT OF CONGRESS 2020.” In Reverse 4 as seen here, the Army www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 21 vehicle is lower and closer to the dock than the Army vehicle seen here in 4A. Reverse 5 features a cross-section of a Liberty ship as her cargo is unloaded. Arced across the top and bottom borders are the inscriptions ”ACT OF CONGRESS 2020” and “WE DELIVER,” respectively. Reverse 7F depicts a convoy of Liberty ships crossing the ocean during one of their many missions to deliver supplies to U.S. troops. The inscription “WE DELIVER” is centrally located above the convoy. Encircling the border are the additional inscriptions “ARSENAL OF DEMOCRACY,” “FOURTH ARM OF DEFENSE,” and “ACT OF CONGRESS 2020.” Reverse 8 portrays a convoy of Liberty ships in columns stretching beyond the horizon as it steams ahead to complete its mission. A “V” for “victory” is superimposed behind the inscription “FULL AHEAD TO VICTORY.” Note that this is a preferred design of the liaison and also the reverse recommendation of the U.S. Commission of Fine Arts. Reverse 9 depicts a view of the starboard side of a Liberty ship convoy during www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 22 World War II. Inscriptions are “FOURTH ARM OF DEFENSE,” “WE DELIVER,” and “ACT OF CONGRESS 2020.” This is also a preferred design of the liaison. Reverse 11 depicts a convoy of Liberty ships superimposed on a world map. The map illustrates some of the main cargo routes highlighting the mariner’s global support of the war effort. The incused inscription “FULL AHEAD TO VICTORY” emphasizes the determination of the Merchant Mariners to deliver cargo to its destination. Reverses 12 and 12B feature the Merchant Marine emblem used during World War II centered under the inscription “FULL AHEAD TO VICTORY.” They are encircled by a rope and compass points indicating the cardinal directions of north, south, east, and west. Between the compass points are the inscriptions “COURAGE,” “ENDURANCE,” “DEDICATION,” and “HONOR.” Reverse 12 is seen here and includes the alternate inscriptions “FOURTH ARM OF DEFENSE” and “WE DELIVER.” This is Reverse 12 and 12B. Finally, Reverses 13 and 13B depict a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 23 larger version of the Merchant Marine emblem as a central device above the inscription “WE DELIVER.” A rope and compass points indicating the cardinal directions surround the emblem. Between the compass points are the inscriptions “COURAGE,” “ENDURANCE,” “DEDICATION,” and “HONOR.” This design, Reverse 13, also includes the inscription “FOURTH ARM OF DEFENSE.” Reverse 13B seen here includes the inscription “FULL AHEAD TO VICTORY.” If we go back to Reverse 13, please, this is a preferred design of the liaison. Madam Chair, that concludes the candidate design. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you so much, April. We have a lot to think about here. Okay. And I would like now to ask if either Joe Menna or Ron Harrigal have anything that they want to share with us about striking these medals, the medal design. Joe? MR. MENNA: portfolio. No, I think it’s a nice And whatever challenges are presented, I www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 24 think we'll be able to accommodate them. The one that would interest me the most, pose the most difficulty, I think, is the one with the insert because of the shading on the sky that appears to be concave as well. And that would almost be like a medal within a medal. I'm sure we can figure out a way to do it. Now, the insert with the globe would be concave, and that would probably be easier. But the insert with the ship and the sky in the background, that would be a challenge. But I'm sure we could figure it out. It wouldn't be in the portfolio if we couldn't do it. Let’s put it like that. CHAIRPERSON: Joe. I'm sure you're right, Thank you. Ron Harrigal, what are your comments? MR. HARRIGAL: good portfolio. No, I think this is a It’s balanced. We can obviously get a lot of the detail of the portraits. Of course, the side profiles are more preferred for medal composition. But they are all definitely coinable so www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 25 we're good with it. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you so much. So we're going to begin our consideration of the designs that we’ve just seen. And I’d like to ask all the members of the Committee to try to keep your comments to five minutes or less because Jennifer is going to keep track of all of us. So if you have any questions or comments on any discussion, please refrain from discussing it until you're recognized at the end of the discussion of this program. And then we're going to ask for additional comments. This is kind of new Zoom etiquette, if you know what I mean. So, Robin, if you wouldn't mind starting, I would appreciate that. MS. SALMON: Thank you, Mary. This is Robin Salmon. And I have -- I should say my husband had two Merchant Mariners in his family. so this is something that’s very important to us. The designs for the obverse, No. 6, in particular, drew me from the beginning. And I do www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 26 understand that that’s also the CFA recommendation. And I prefer a design of the stakeholders. But I also liked No. 1, Obverse No. 1, and Obverse 8 as well. But I think my favorite would be the grouping within No. 6. Then the reverse, No. 3 would certainly pair well with any of those. And the message “WE DELIVER,” which was so much the central mantra of the Merchant Mariners, I think is important. Then I also liked Reverse 11 because it shows some of the routes and in a larger way than was shown on a few of the other designs. And it includes the “FULL AHEAD TO VICTORY” slogan and a very nice ship. And the last one that I liked was Reverse 13, and that’s for obvious reasons. all of the language there that is important. It has “FOURTH ARM OF DEFENSE” I think is also very much to the heart of the Merchant Mariners. And all of these designs could pair well together. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you so much, Robin. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 27 All right. Dr. Brown, if you would give us your comments. DR. BROWN: Yes, I certainly will. Thank you, Madam Chair. And I’d like to say that being given -- again, this is Lawrence Brown, member of the Committee who happens to also serve as one of the persons from the military. I'm a veteran of the U.S. Army, Viet Nam, so anything that is military actually has something that is close to my heart. I have a few questions, Madam Chair, but I’m going to defer those until you say that it’s the appropriate time to do so. But with respect to the selections, my focus is -- given that I represent the public, I’m really looking at things that are more likely to interest the public. And from that standpoint, from an aesthetic standpoint -- and regarding that, the obverses -- again, I'm going to salute the artists because they did a fantastic job. But my first choice on the obverse would be No. 8, even though the others were fantastic. And I also loved Reverse 3 and Reverse 8. Those were www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 28 the selections that I would offer for consideration. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you so very much, Dr. Brown. Donald Scarinci. MR. SCARINCI: This is a Congressional Gold Medal, and I'm perfectly fine with whatever the stakeholders want so I'm not going to belabor it. 6 and 3 are just fine. CHAIRPERSON: 6 and 3 or 6 and 8, Donald? MR. SCARINCI: You're right. Oh, 6 and 8. 6 and 8. That was the recommended design. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you so much. I'm here. I just couldn't Mike Moran. MR. MORAN: find the mute button. CHAIRPERSON: MR. MORAN: Okay. Thank you, Mary. I'm looking, as I see these designs, at two things. I'm looking for the people and I'm looking for the Liberty ships. Those are the two major drivers for me in these designs. And when I www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 29 turn to the obverse, I see a good representation of the people in the first batch of them. I particularly liked Obverse 2 because I like the silhouette of the Liberty ship below them and then the major inscriptions within the silhouette of the ship. But that being said, I would also defer to the sponsor with 6 because I think that’s a good one as well. One thing that I'm not shot with, as I see this, there’s two concepts that are employed in these designs. Liberty ship. One is the German aircraft bombing the I get it that that’s a helpless ship, but it’s not something I think I’d want to see on a medal. Bravery and valor would be more like it. And another thing, most of these ships went down by torpedo, not by air attack. So I'm dismissing those. I also don’t like the convoys. While appropriate in most cases being the Liberty ships and what they did, it doesn’t work on a three-inch medal. I will make one exception to that. did No. 4 did an excellent job. The artist that Although I'm not voting for it, I certainly give it some recognition. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 30 I don’t even know who the artist is that did that, but she’s good. CHAIRPERSON: Obverse or reverse, Mike? MR. MORAN: Obverse. CHAIRPERSON: MR. MORAN: on the obverse side. Obverse. Okay. So I'm going to go with 6 I will give some points to 2 and make mention of No. 4. On the reverse, I know that we are -several in front of me had gone for -- I've got to find it down here -- No. 3, but I happen to like No. 5. I like it for the arc, I like it for the angles and the activity it shows. It catches my eye. And I feel like I'm actually looking up at that ship. It’s in harbor unloading its supplies. But, again, if we're going for reverse, particularly a heraldic reverse, I don’t particularly like those. In this case I don't think they're as meaningful as the Liberty ship itself. But No. 13 is the best of that lot, which the sponsors have recommended. And the other one that I liked was www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 31 No. 11. And I think it’s simply because of the fact that you put that globe in there with the convoy routes, it shows the magnitude, the massiveness of the operation that was required in order for us to supply our armies on multiple fronts during World War II. And that does an excellent job of conveying it. Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you so much, Mike. Tom Uram, please. MR. URAM: Former chair. Thanks, Mary. It is a great portfolio. I kind of went with the reverse on the first because I really like No. 8 where it has the movement and everything coming towards you -- the ships coming towards you and so forth and it has that. So in the pairings -- and I liked 13 because, as you know, I like the idea of describing what the medal is to who might not understand it otherwise. right. No. 13. So I don’t mind 13 at all So I'm going to give points to both No. 8 and I think both complement. And then on the obverse, as was mentioned with several of my other colleagues here, I www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 32 like the idea of the people as well, and I like the movement and so forth. I'm leaning towards No. 6. I think that it does have, you know, kind of like land and sea where it looks -- and then I'm looking at No. 8. I like the idea of maybe that’s a view from another ship. And so I'm going to give both 6 and 8 and 8 and 13 votes. But credit to all the artists. I think it’s a -- it’s great, and I think, William -Bill, you know, the organization is going to be proud regardless of which way it goes. These are great images for a significant medal such as this. Thank you, Madam Chair. DR. BROWN: I agree. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Tom. Sam Gill, please. MR. GILL: Yes, ma'am, Madam Chair. Thank you. These Merchant Mariners are truly the unsung heroes of the Second World War, and it’s nice to be able to acknowledge them. That’s a big honor, actually. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 33 I was drawn, like Mike Moran, to people and ships. and 8. And I was torn on the obverse between 6 I like them both. I settled on 8 because the artist made this design look almost like a photograph. It’s beautifully done. And the individuals stand out, and I think it just would look really nice on a medal. On the reverse, I had to go with No. 8 because it reflects the convoy, which is the way these mariners had to sail. They had a terrifically difficult mission each and every time. dangerous. Highly And they had to travel in that manner, and that reflects it. And I like the “V” for “VICTORY” and I think the two -- so it would be 8 and 8 -- would make a very, very nice medal. Thank you, Mary. CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, Sam. Dennis Tucker, please. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. And I'm going to agree with Sam on this. My strong preferences are for Obverse 8 and Reverse 8 as well. I think they’d be the strongest -- among the strongest designs and I think the strongest www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 34 combination and a very nice proposal of candidates here. Just to talk briefly on a couple others that I think deserve merit and mention. love that kind of inset medallion. Obverse 4, I I think it adds a certain spark of drama and a bit of sequential art, if I were looking at it as a cartoonist. And I’d also like to hear from Joe that that would be a good challenge for the Mint staff on how to make that work. So I think that I'm not going to ultimately vote for No. 4, but I think that it deserves some meritorious mention. Obverse 8, as I said, is my strongest preference. I love the unusual perspective. It’s one of very few military related Congressional Gold Medals that use a full standing portrait perspective. So I love my eye to be drawn to that innovative design. Obverses 12 and 12A, I will talk about these for a moment because they relate to what I'm about to say about the reverses. This is kind of the typical view that you see in a ship-related medal in our Congressional Gold Medal series. It depicts a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 35 vessel from below so you're looking up at it from a waterline. And you really have to go back about 50 years to the United States Navy Bicentennial Medal by Hal Reed, which came out, I believe, in 1975, to see a perspective or orientation that’s very different from that. And we get that different kind of perspective in Reverse 8 by looking down on the ships, seeing them from above. And I think it’s just a very dramatic and well-choreographed design. I think it goes well, being an innovative perspective, with Obverse 8. So I really think Obverse 8 and Reverse 8 are the best combination. My only question on Reverse 8, I would love to hear Joe and Ron talk about how they would sculpt the wording at the top because there’s a lot going on there with the depth and relief of those letters and the “V,” which I think somebody described as being superimposed. But, to me, it looks like it’s rising off the surface of the medal. Anyway, if you guys could discuss that, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 36 I'm curious to hear your thoughts. CHAIRPERSON: I think we'll save that for a little bit later, Dennis, after we're all done talking about it. How is that? MR. TUCKER:Very good. Obverse 8 and Reverse 8, then, are my recommendations. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you so much, Dennis. Dean Kotlowski. MR. KOTLOWSKI: Thank you, Madam Chairperson. As I looked over this portfolio -- and it is truly an excellent portfolio with a number of very, very interesting designs -- I reviewed the Mint’s silver medals that honored the services and also the Chinese-American Congressional Gold Medal. And a lot of what we’ve been doing aligns with what I think is good in this portfolio and what I think is important. And that is to have recognition of the people and also to do something with either the ships www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 37 or the heraldry. So my thinking, you know, is very much aligned with what my colleagues have said. I was initially drawn to Observe 8. And I would just echo Sam that it looked like a photograph to me, and I wondered how that was going to translate into a coin because, again, I'm still fairly new to some of the designing and the minting of coins. I developed a little bit of concern that I'm going to share with you, but I'm kind of dismissing it. It seems to really strive hard for realism, and I was just wondering if the four men would be standing at ease that way. And if they were, they were not -- could this maybe sending a wrong message with the ship in the background? Would this be a position, let’s say, if they were taken prisoner? I don’t know. just sharing that with you. But I kind of -- I'm I'm kind of brushing it aside because I really do like this one. I have seen No. 6. some points to No. 6. I'm going to give I'm really kind of torn between 8 and 6. And No. 1 was favored -- was a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 38 preferred design of the liaison. this one as well. And I kind of like It’s a simple, plain design. very -- I think it‘s to the point. It’s And there is this blank space at the bottom for the words “ACT OF CONGRESS 2020” if that’s needed to go into the coin -excuse me -- into the medal. And then the reverse designs, again, there are a lot of very, very good designs here. one that I was really drawn to was Reverse 8. The And Reverse 8, to me, showed the essence of the drama of war, the courage of war, the sacrifice and the ultimate victory of the United States in this war. And I thought that was the strongest design. I appreciated Mike’s comments. I believe it was on Reverse 5 of the perspective of looking up at the ship. That didn't capture my eye initially, but when Mike discussed it, I was very, very taken with it and will give it some points. And then in terms of the heraldry, I've done a lot of this with, again, the silver medals for the services. those. So I did think 13 was the best of I think that it gives you the anchor and the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 39 shield and the “WE DELIVER.” Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you so much, Dean. Peter van Alfen. MR. VAN ALFEN: Thank you very much, Madam, Chair. As somebody who is a former nautical archeologist, somebody who crisscrosses New York Harbor daily from my home in Staten Island to Manhattan and who passes by two significant memorials to Merchant Mariners in Battery Park -- this is the East Coast Memorial and the Merchant Marine Memorial -- I am especially delighted to be working on this portfolio. And I do have to commend all of the artists for a very strong and exceptional portfolio here. So my preference for the obverse is Obverse 8. I do feel like this is a very strong design, but I'm also drawn -- and it does seem to represent the, both, ethnic and racial diversity that is found among the Merchant Mariners during the Second World War, which has integrated crews to an extent www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 40 that the U.S. Navy did not. And I also liked the full-length portraits because it also enables the dealer to see the roles that each of these individuals is playing a little bit better, I think, than in some of the other representations of the different roles. And the other thing that really struck me about this portrait -- or the representations of the individuals here is that the captain seems to have the features of Hugh Mulzac, who was the first black captain to serve in the Merchant Marine during the Second World War, the captain of the SS Booker T. Washington. So I think that, you know, again, this is a very strong design. It does capture the ethnic and racial diversity of the Merchant Mariners. Now for the reverses, I have a strong preference for Reverse 5 because I think it will pair well with Obverse 8, that very strong diagonal line. It also would show the culmination of the voyage, the unloading of the cargo once the ship has made it across the Atlantic or Pacific, as it were. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 41 So I think the pairing of the voyage underway with Obverse 8 and the voyage concluded with Reverse 5 with these two very strong designs I think would work well. That said, I also very much like Reverse 8. This does have an element of a World War II poster or advertisement, something that you would see, especially “FULL AHEAD TO VICTORY,” which is, you know, very contemplative for the period. I do have some concerns about how this would be sculpted, which we can save for the discussion a little bit later. So that concludes my preferences. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you so much, Peter. And now to Art Bernstein. MR. BERNSTEIN: from California. Hello, and greetings I'm not far from the old Kaiser shipyards in the Bay area where many of the Liberty ships were built that are featured in these designs. As far as the obverse is concerned, I found myself agreeing with most of the comments about www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 42 Obverse No. 6, and I would recommend that. I’d like to put in one good word for a design that hasn’t been mentioned, and that was 13A, which was one of the preferred designs of the liaison. I like that design, and I liked the use of the anchor device which emulated the emblem which was featured on some of the reverse proposals. When it comes to the reverse, I'm a big proponent of Reverse No. 8. The sense of size when you see that giant convoy out into the horizon, a sense of mission. They're chugging forward. And I would also repeat the comment that Peter made a moment ago, the style of the wording, the lettering, did emulate a World War II poster or, to me, it’s almost an art deco style, which seems consistent with the time period we're seeking to honor. CHAIRPERSON: Thanks so much, Art. So I guess it’s up to me. You guys are certainly persuasive, I have to say that. I want to tell you why I paired 6, with the observe, and 8 with reverse. Take a look at 6. And so from an art point of view -- forget that this www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 43 is Merchant Mariners, forget all that stuff. People are sort of cascading across the obverse of the medal from high up in the left to down past the center in the right. So that’s kind of an arc that’s there. So it implies hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands, of people are behind that line. They're just coming and coming and coming. Now, take a look at Reverse 8, please. Thanks, Boneza. Okay. at us again. So here we have something coming This time it’s not a group of people, but look at the power behind that. And, again, it’s going slightly left to slightly right, and that appealed to me. The other thing that I though Joe would have just a really fabulous time with is doing the rivets across the reverse of the medal and sculpting the field behind “FULL AHEAD TO VICTORY” to make it look like it’s the side of a ship, to make it look metallic. So I thought that 8 really would give the artists a number of fields and styles and finishes to work with. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 44 Okay. of you seem to like. Okay. Let’s go back to 8 which so many Of the obverse. I'm sorry. I agree with what Sam says, that it looks just like a snapshot, but my concern with this is, so, like, what are they waiting for? They're all lined up, they're sort of not in an order where they would necessarily be with each other, and there’s no activity whatsoever. They're just standing. Much as I think that the artist did an absolutely fabulous job depicting all four people, and I liked the ship and I liked the angle, as well as the angle of, I think -- what was it? -- No. 5 on the reverse, Peter, that you liked? Yeah, that angle. I think that’s wonderful as well, and the darkness of the ship kind of matches the darkness on the obverse of No. 6. But I think we'll have to see how the votes come out, ladies and gentlemen. I think I'm going to stick with my original 6 and 8. All right. So now is the time that we have any comments and any discussion before we start to tally up. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 45 Who said what? Peter was first, I MR. VAN ALFEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. believe. Just to address the concern that you and another one of our colleagues raised about the pose of the mariners on Obverse 8, you know, it’s interesting the way that all of us look at this slightly differently. When I saw this, I took this as, essentially, a photograph of these four being photographed from a cameraman who is out of the view. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. MR. VAN ALFEN: You know, there are a great number of photos of crewmen -- you know, officers and crew standing against the rail from, you know, the beginning of photography, basically. So my take when I saw this, you know, really was just people lined up for a photograph along the rail. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. MR. VAN ALFEN: So just throwing that in. CHAIRPERSON: All right. Does anybody else have any comments? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 46 MS. WARREN: Dr. Brown has his hand up. This is Jennifer. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. see him exactly right on my screen. DR. BROWN: Because I don't Dr. Brown? Thank you so much. And I wanted to offer a few comments as well because I think this is such a fantastic opportunity -- an opportunity, also, to educate the public about Merchant Mariners. I must confess that before I saw this portfolio, I really knew very little about Merchant Mariners, even though I served in the military. And I actually only had an interest -I'll share with everyone my bias -- I had an uncle by marriage to, in fact, a maternal grandaunt who I actually never met but I heard that he was a Merchant Mariner. And I never really had an interest to find out what that meant until this portfolio. with this portfolio, I did a little homework. So I searched the internet and had landed on a site where there was this fantastic and articulate black female www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 47 who explained about her role as a Merchant Mariner. And that stirred me to ask questions about how can we make sure that this important piece of history clearly reflects more of what happened in the past, what’s happening, perhaps, clearly kind of present. And particularly given the fact that we just got through celebrating the International Women’s Day and we're in the midst of celebrating the National Women’s History Month, it just makes a lot of sense and I hope that there’s an opportunity that the U.S. Mint would be able to, in fact, if not on this particular medal, then on a bronze medal, sister medal, if you will, to actually have a design that features a female Merchant Mariner, because I understand that while they may have not been plentiful, the fact that they were there seems, to me, enough to represent and salute them for that. I also would like to quickly add, because I think this is such an important time in history, that we clearly for the record define what is the Fourth Line of Defense, because I'm not sure that www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 48 everyone understands what that is. So I would really like someone -- quite frankly, I want to be sure that I get it right, so I would want to, maybe, have the liaison explain to us what is the Fourth Line of Defense and share with us what the first three lines of defense are. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: outstanding question. Well, that’s an I think we’ve spent considerable time trying to nail down what are quotes from a number of U.S. presidents defining the fourth line of defense. President Eisenhower made comments and quotes to that effect. Others have referred to the Merchant Marine in that regard. I think Army, Navy, Air Force, and Merchant Marine is the way in which that was meant. That’s just my guess. The Merchant Marine -- this is something that more Americans should know about. Not only was the Merchant Marine the fourth line of defense back in the 1940s in this time of great conflict, it’s also the fourth line of defense today because the movement of U.S. forces overseas and their sustainment is largely done over time by the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 49 United States commercial fleet, which is manned by U.S. citizen merchant mariners. And so any time we get a chance to identify the importance of the Merchant Marine as part of our sealift team is a great time. And this would certainly be an excellent way and time to recognize that. DR. BROWN: So we really salute the U.S. Mint, and particularly you as the liaison to -very aggressive public relations campaign so people can really understand the value of the merchant mariners to this country, not just in World War II but many of the wars that preceded that and wars that actually, in fact, succeeded it as well. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: superb idea. I think that’s a And, by the way, a belated welcome back from Viet Nam.I'm a fellow Viet Nam veteran. DR. BROWN: We will spend more time together at some point. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Thank you both. We'll have to do that, yeah. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 50 CHAIRPERSON: Dr. Brown, you asked a question about if the bronze medal could be certainly different and include, perhaps, a female, and I would toss that to Liz or Greg for the legal interpretation of that. MR. WEINMAN: MS. YOUNG: I'll defer to Liz. Sorry. It took me a minute to unmute there. CHAIRPERSON: MS. YOUNG: All right. You know, just from the legislative standpoint, the legislation is silent on any requirements about who needs to be represented. So it’s really not a legal issue. It’s just a design choice. CHAIRPERSON: But I think the question was, could they be different than the Congressional Gold Medal? Is that not true, Dr. Brown? DR. BROWN: That is correct. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's a different question. MS. YOUNG: Yeah. And the answer is no, they could not. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 51 DR. BROWN: question. And I have to ask the other Please forgive me, Madam Chair. Is it possible -- again, because I'm new to this, is it possible to include a design down the road that includes, in fact, Art, having the issue be presented back to this Committee to consider a design that includes a female? CHAIRPERSON: For this specific Congressional Gold Medal? DR. BROWN: Yes, particularly since it’s silent on gender, then it would seem to me that if we started out with females represented in the gold, then we would be able to, in fact, have a female represented in the bronze. My question about having it in the bronze would no longer as relevant as long as a female is represented among the Merchant Mariners. CHAIRPERSON: Mr. McDonald, what were the percentages of women that served in the Merchant Marine? MR. MCDONALD: Well, unfortunately, women were very scarce in the Merchant Marine during www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 52 World War II. If the coin were honoring members of mariners today, the picture would be quite different. Many women are at sea. However, the reason that there were few women in during World War II is that following Pearl Harbor, the government issued rulings that kept women off merchant ships that were going in harm’s way. So while some women were caught up early in the war, and in fact several of them received awards for their service in the Merchant Marines, and they behaved very heroically, the overall numbers were very, very small during the war once that ruling had been made. And I hate to tell you that it was Admiral Emory S. Land for whom the chair that I hold is named -- and he was a great man, but he issued that ruling for a number of reasons. One simply being that they didn't want to create separate accommodations aboard ships for women. And when cruise ships, which is where many of the women mariners were working as stewardesses and other types of employees were www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 53 converted over to war service, they didn't want to make allowance for the separate accommodations. So we're delighted that -- in fact, early on -- and someone had made the point earlier -when we were talking to the Mint about portraying the mariners and we wanted to capture the mariners not only for their endurance and courage and their other great characteristics but also by who they were, we wanted all ethnicities to be represented, in addition to showing officers and deck and engine room personnel. And we looked at how many women had been serving in the Merchant Marine during World War II and, unfortunately, reached the same conclusion, that they were, in the end, very few. The good news is, of course, the coin honors Merchant Mariners of World War II, and we think a lot of the women who served will appreciate the coin. But most of the mariners who are going to be looking at this coin are going to be looking for the people they remember they served with, and there were very few women in that group. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 54 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. McDonald, for that clarification. Okay. vote. So I think that we are ready to Do we have any other discussion? MR. VAN ALFEN: Madam Chair, this is Peter van Alfen. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. MR. VAN ALFEN: I just had some questions to either Joe or Ron about the sculpting on Reverse 8. One of the concerns that I have with that is how the water between the ships is going to be represented and whether or not that’s going to appear rather busy and reflect a light in all sorts of different ways. So I presume that this would be sculpted to add sort of a wave pattern, or what do you think? MR. MENNA: It would be sculpted as closely as we can make it to what you see there. The reflectivity would depend on frequency of the waves, you know, as they fade into lower relief as you get closer to the background and to the top of the corner www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 55 it would decrease accordingly. MR. VAN ALFEN: MR. MENNA: Okay. It wouldn't compete -- we wouldn't allow it to compete with the ships. MR. VAN ALFEN:All right. CHAIRPERSON: MR. MENNA: Thank you. Thank you, Joe. Thank you. MR. KOTLOWSKI:Mary? CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Dean. MR. KOTLOWSKI: I hear a lot of preference for Obverses 6 and 8 and Reverse 8. none of these do we see “ACT OF CONGRESS 2020.” And on Is that a problem? CHAIRPERSON: I believe it is. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: not a required inscription. Legally, it’s It’s there by tradition. I presume if it’s something that the Committee feels it’s a tradition worth keeping, certainly we can add it to whatever the final design selections are. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: And perhaps ask our liaison if it’s something that he feels would be important, and if so -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 56 CHAIRPERSON: opinion? Mr. McDonald, your Mr. McDonald, what’s your opinion on the “ACT OF CONGRESS”? MR. MCDONALD: I think it’s appropriate to have “ACT OF CONGRESS” in here. CHAIRPERSON: MR. MCDONALD: All right. If this is selected along with Reverse 8, I think that would be an appropriate place for it. MR. WEINMAN: This is Greg. Maybe it’s best to score it, Mary, -things out and then we can -- the Committee can make a motion that’s appropriate. CHAIRPERSON: All right. So each of us has gotten a score sheet electronically or otherwise. And so why don’t we recess for -- it is two minutes after three. Why don’t we recess until 3:15. Greg, is that fine? MR. WEINMAN: Let’s try that. I should be able to do it in 15 minutes. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you so much. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 57 MR. WEINMAN: your scores. Okay. Everybody, send me Thank you. (Off the record.) CHAIRPERSON: It is 3:15 on the nose, and so, Greg, would you please report out to us. MR. WEINMAN: Yes. The scoring for this is out of a possible 33 points, For the obverses: points. is 6. Obverse 2 is 7. Obverse 1 is 8 Obverse 3 is 4. Obverse 4A is 4 points. Obverse 4 Obverse 5 is 3 points. Obverse 6 is 24 points, making that the highest scoring design. 3 points. Obverse 8 is 19 points. Obverse 12 is 5. Obverse 13 is 3. Obverse 9 is Obverse 12A is 4. Obverse 13A is 7. Obverse 13B is 3. Obverse 13C is 3. Moving on to reverses. points. Reverse 3 has 8 points. has 4 points. Reverse 9 has 7. Reverse 12 has 3. 13 has 10. 4A Reverse 7, Reverse 8 has 30 points, making it the high vote getter. has 7. 4 has 4 points. Reverse 5 has 16 points. that is 4 points. Reverse 2 has 3 Reverse 11 Reverse 12B has 3. And Reverse 13B has 3. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Reverse CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 58 Once again, the high scoring designs was Reverse 8 with 30 points, and then the obverse is -- it was Obverse 6 with 24 points. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Reverses 4, 4A, 5 and 7? Greg, was I missed those couple starting with No. 4, 4A -MR. WEINMAN: Sure. Reverse 4 was 4 points. Reverse 4A was 4 points. Reverse 5 was 16 points. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay. Thank you. MR. TUCKER: And, Greg, this is Dennis. Could you repeat the score for Obverse 12? MR. WEINMAN: MR. TUCKER: Obverse 12 had 5 points. Okay. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you. Does anybody have any further questions? MR. URAM: Out of a possible? CHAIRPERSON: Tom, what did you say? didn't hear you. MR. URAM: Out of a possible? CHAIRPERSON: Out of a possible 33. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 59 MR. URAM: 33. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you. Right. Right. Thank you, Greg. So do we have any motions? MR. TUCKER: Mary, this is Dennis, and I think that we need to make a motion pursuant to what we were discussing with the wording “ACT OF CONGRESS 2020.” We are looking at two obverses, 6 and 8. had the wording. 8 6, which is our high vote getter, does not have the wording. So I think we need to address that somehow. MR. WEINMAN: This is Greg. You could make a motion to place the inscription on either the obverse or reverse as appropriate. It’s one possibility. MR. SCARINCI: I would second the motion if Dennis makes it. MR. VAN ALFEN: unclear on the motion. I'm sorry, I was This is Peter van Alfen. What was the proposed motion? MR. WEINMAN: There was no motion. was just recommending that we address that issue. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 60 MR. VAN ALFEN: All right. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: have it, Dennis. Okay. We’ve got to I mean, we got to have it. It’s a Congressional Gold Medal. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: My personal preference is Obverse 8, so I would argue that we should -- if it were closer, I would argue that we should just make Obverse 8 our recommendation, but I think 19 to 24, you know, 8 got 19 points, 6 got 24. Is that close enough, or could we discuss that? CHAIRPERSON: All right. I believe that 24 was clearly their first choice, which was No. 6. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Dennis, you're welcome to make a motion if you’d like. I mean, see if it gets support. MR. TUCKER: Well, I would make a motion that we recommend Obverse 8 and Reverse 8. DR. BROWN: This is Lawrence Brown. I’d like to second that motion. CHAIRPERSON: Who seconded that? couldn't hear. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 61 DR. BROWN: Lawrence Brown. CHAIRPERSON: Lawrence. Okay. Okay. Is there any debate on that? Okay. All in favor of Dennis’s motion to take Obverse 8 which received 19 votes, as opposed to 24 which is Obverse 6, and pick that as the obverse, all in favor say “Aye.” UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Aye. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Aye. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Aye. MS. WARREN: Mary, this is Jennifer. You may want to take a rollcall vote on this. CHAIRPERSON: I think we're going to have to take a rollcall vote. I've got things on the outside that are making noise. Okay. Robin? MS. SALMON: No. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. No. Dr. Brown? DR. BROWN: Aye. CHAIRPERSON: Donald Scarinci? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 62 No, we should not be MR. SCARINCI: doing this. CHAIRPERSON: Michael Moran? MR. MORAN: Strong no. CHAIRPERSON: MR. URAM: No. CHAIRPERSON: MR. GILL: Thomas Uram? Sam Gill? Aye. CHAIRPERSON: MR. TUCKER: CHAIRPERSON: Dennis Tucker? Aye. Dean Kotlowski? MR. KOTLOWSKI:No. CHAIRPERSON: Peter van Alfen? MR. VAN ALFEN:Aye. CHAIRPERSON: Art Bernstein? MR. BERNSTEIN:No. CHAIRPERSON: Mary Lannin, no. So there are only 1, 2, 3, 4 out of 11, and so the motion is defeated. Could we take a look at Obverse 6, please. Thank you. I hope this is appropriate. As Chair, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 63 I would like to make the motion that opposite the “MERCHANT MARINERS OF WORLD WAR II,” from approximately nine o’clock on a clockface to six, that the Mint in their own special way adds “CONGRESSIONAL GOLD MEDAL” or “ACT OF CONGRESS.” MR. TUCKER: I would second that. This is Dennis. CHAIRPERSON: Dennis. Okay. Thank you. All right. Why don’t we vote on that. Robin. MS. SALMON: Aye. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. DR. BROWN: Dr. Brown. Aye. CHAIRPERSON: Donald. MR. SCARINCI: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: Michael. MR. MORAN: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: MR. URAM: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: MR. GILL: Thomas. Sam. Yes. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 64 CHAIRPERSON: MR. TUCKER: CHAIRPERSON: Dennis. Obviously. Yes. Dean. MR. KOTLOWSKI:Yes. CHAIRPERSON: Peter. MR. VAN ALFEN:Yes. CHAIRPERSON: Art. MR. BERNSTEIN: CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Motion passed unanimously. So we will be adding “ACT OF CONGRESS” to -- from about nine o’clock to about six o’clock on the obverse of the design that received the most votes, which was Merchant Mariners O-06. Okay. Thank you. So thank you, everybody, for coming and once again being -- far away to shake each other’s hands. MS. WARREN: I'm just not clear. Mary. This is Jennifer. I'm asking Greg. Did we actually vote on the obverse and reverse that’s being recommended, or are we just going with the total vote? MR. WEINMAN: The default is always www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 65 where the vote is. I don’t think we need to make that motion unless it’s going to be a motion that goes opposite of how the scoring goes. MS. WARREN: Okay. I just want to confirm. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. So everybody have a couple cups of coffee tomorrow morning, and this meeting will reconvene at 10:00. very much. And thank you We will be talking about the candidate designs for the 2022 American Innovation $1 Program Act tomorrow. Thank you very much. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: MS. SALMON: Thank you. Bye, everybody. CHAIRPERSON: MR. GILL: Bye. Bye, Robin. Sam Gill. Thank you. (Whereupon, the meeting concluded at 3:24 p.m.) www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 66 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, NATALIE SCHMITTING, the officer before whom the foregoing proceedings were taken, do hereby certify that any witness(es) in the foregoing proceedings, prior to testifying, were duly sworn; that the proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting by a qualified transcriptionist; that said digital audio recording of said proceedings are a true and accurate record to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. NATALIE SCHMITTING Notary Public in and for the State of Virginia www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting March 23, 2021 67 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER I, ANNETTE SALVATA, do hereby certify that this transcript was prepared from the digital audio recording of the foregoing proceeding, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. ANNETTE SALVATA www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376