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CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE (CCAC) PUBLIC MEETING March 21, 2017 10:00 a.m. United States Mint 2nd Floor Conference Room 801 9th Street, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20220 Reported by: Janel Folsom A P P E A R A N C E Mary Lannin - Chair Committee Members: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Robert Hoge Erik Jansen Michael Moran Donald Scarinci Jeanne Stevens-Sollman Dennis Tucker Herman Viola Heidi Wastweet Others: Greg Weinman - General Counsel Betty Birdsong Pam Borer Ron Harrigal Vanessa Franck Roger Vasquez April Stafford Megan Sullivan Phebe Hemphill Special Guests: Dr. Breanna Robertson - Marine Corps Association Annette Amerman - Marine Corps Association Dr. Dennis Conrad - Navy Association Matt Cheser - Navy Association John Smith - Air Force Association William Thiesen - Coast Guard Major General Antonio Taguba John Melegrito Erik Soriano Curt Shimizu (ph) C O N T E N T S PAGE Welcome and call to order 5 Discussion of Minutes of Previous Meeting 8 Review and Discussion of Candidate Designs for 2018 World War I Armed Forces Silver Medal 10 Discussion of Concept/Theme - Filipino Veterans of World War II Congressional Gold Medal 144 Review and Discussion of Candidate Designs for American Eagle Palladium Bullion Coin 175 P R O C E E D I N G S MARY LANNIN: Good morning. I call to order the meeting of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee for Tuesday, March 21, 2017. Before we begin, I would like to introduce the members of the committee, and please respond with present when I call your name. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, are you on the phone? Not yet. Robert Hoge? ROBERT HOGE: Present. MARY LANNIN: Erik Jansen? Donald Scarinci? No Erik yet. All these tardy people. THOMAS URAM: He went to look for his book. MARY LANNIN: So he's -- okay. Jeanne Stevens-Sollman? JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MARY LANNIN: MICHAEL MORAN: MARY LANNIN: DENNIS TUCKER: MARY LANNIN: Present. Michael Moran? Present. Dennis Tucker? Present. Thomas Uram? THOMAS URAM: Present. MARY LANNIN: Herman Viola? HERMAN VIOLA: MARY LANNIN: Present. Heidi Wastweet? HEIDI WASTWEET: MARY LANNIN: Here. All right. And I'm the Chair, Mary Lannin. Okay. Erik, would you like to state present for the record? record. ERIK JANSEN: Present for the record. MARY LANNIN: All right. Present for the All right. Today, the CCAC will consider the following items: The minutes for the meeting of February 15th; the candidate designs for the 2018 World War I Armed Forces Silver Medals; we will have a theme and concept discussion for the Filipino Veterans of World War II Congressional Gold Medal; and we will discuss the candidate designs for the American Eagle Palladium Bullion Coin Program. Before we begin our proceedings, are there any members of the press in attendance? (No audible response) MARY LANNIN: Anybody on the phone? PHEBE HEMPHILL: Phebe Hemphill. I'm here in Philadelphia. MARY LANNIN: Hey, Phebe. PHEBE HEMPHILL: MARY LANNIN: Hello. Any members of the press on the phone? Okay. I don't hear. MAGGIE JUDKINS: All right. For the -- Maggie Judkins from Numismatic News. MARY LANNIN: Hello. MAGGIE JUDKINS: MARY LANNIN: Welcome. Thank you. All right. For the record, I would like to acknowledge the following people from the United States Mint that are participating here. We've already heard from Phebe. We have Betty Birdsong, the acting liaison to the CCAC; Greg Weinman, counsel to the CCAC; Phebe, as I said, on the phone from Philadelphia; Ron Harrigal, the manager of Design and Engraving Division in Philadelphia; April Stafford, chief of the Office of Design Management; and the program managers, Pam Borer, Vanessa Franck, and Roger Vasquez. So are there any issues that need -- I'm -Megan, I'm so sorry. In your green sweater, Megan Sullivan is here from the Office of Design Management. Okay. Are there are any issues that the Mint has that they'd like to bring up right now that need to be addressed? All right. GREG WEINMAN: I sent an email to Mr. Abdul- Jabbar to see if he couldn't join the call. MARY LANNIN: GREG WEINMAN: All right. We'll be able to get him set up. MARY LANNIN: right. Okay. Thank you very much. All The first item on the agenda is the approval of the minutes from our February 15th telephonic meeting, and that should've been in your binders for everyone to read. Are there any comments on it? (No audible response) MARY LANNIN: Okay. Is there a motion to approve? Robert. ROBERT HOGE: Approved. MARY LANNIN: Thank you. to second that? And who would like Herman, thank you. All those in favor, please signify by saying aye. THE GROUP: MARY LANNIN: Aye. Those opposed? (No audible response) MARY LANNIN: All right. Without objection to the minutes, and the letters are approved. So, before we get to our agenda, I would like to do two things. First of all, thank you all for readjusting very busy schedules to come to this meeting a week later due to our supposed snowstorm in Washington, D.C. So I appreciate all the efforts that everybody went through to get here today. And I would also like to acknowledge and congratulate Mr. Thomas Uram, who has been reappointed to a new four-year term on the CCAC based on the recommendation of the speaker of the House of Representatives. Congratulations, Tom, and welcome back. (Applause) THOMAS URAM: Glad to be back. MARY LANNIN: Okay. So our first order of business is the review and the discussion of candidate designs for the 2018 World War I Armed Forces Service Medals -- Silver Medals. This portfolio includes designs for the Army, the Navy, Air Service, Marines, and Coast Guard. And I'd like to recommend that we review and comment on the designs for each branch separately; we've got quite a large portfolio. And I think that that's -- everybody's in agreement with that. So, April, if you could present the designs for the Army. APRIL STAFFORD: Thank you, Madam Chair. A little background introduction into this program, first. The 2018 World War I Armed Forces Silver Medals will be produced to complement the 2018 World War I American Veterans Centennial silver dollar. will be produced on the same planchet as the commemorative silver dollar as well. The medals The intent is that each medal represent the individual branches' contributions to the winning of War World I. For concept development as well as historical and technical accuracy, we worked with historians and subject matter experts who were recommended by the World War I Centennial Commission. Those historians have identified candidate designs they felt strongly conveyed the missions and accomplishments of the service branch in World War I. In the interest of time, we provided you with contact sheets that detail those designs. In creating designs, our artists were asked to use inscriptions that would, in some sense, tie the five medals together. These inscriptions include "Centennial of World War I," "Over There," the date "2018," and the name of the armed forces branch. The artists were given flexibility as to where and how to place these inscriptions. While many of the designs were created in pairs, we'll present them today in obverse and reverse groupings to find the best combination of designs to tell that branch's story of World War I. Because of this, some moving or adjusting of inscriptions may be required. So we'll start with the Army obverses. Design 1 portrays a line of doughboys charging out of a trench. They're in formation, attacking the enemy while coiled barbed wire is at the ground at their feet. Design 2 depicts doughboys engaged in battle by the ruins of a bombed-out church. The two soldiers in the foreground are operating a 1-pounder gun while a soldier on the left determines coordinates with binoculars. Design 3 features iconic weaponry and equipment from World War I. The distinctive helmet is shown atop a gas mask, the entrenching tool, bayonet, wire, and pistol represent the manner in which the war was fought, hand to hand in trenches among coiled barb wire. Also depicted is the American-made 1903 Springfield rifle, a critical weapon for American soldiers in World War I. Obverse 4 portrays a doughboy with a 48-star flag behind him, both elements depicted as they were in World War I photographs and posters. The additional inscription of 1918 is included. Obverse 5 depicts a doughboy ready for action. To the right is the United States 48-star flag. And Obverse 6 shows a doughboy cutting through German barbed wire while a second doughboy aims a rifle in a shattered landscape of broken trees and cratered earth. In the distance, a shell explodes. Onto the reverses. Reverse 1, seen previously as an obverse, depicts doughboys engaged in battle by the ruins of a bombed-out church. Reverse 2, also seen previously as an obverse candidate design, features iconic weaponry and equipment from World War I. Reverse 3 features the current Army emblem which was in use during World War I. And Reverse 4 depicts two soldiers cautiously entering a bombed village during the Meuse-Argonne Offensive, the largest of the war that ultimately led to the armistice. The additional inscription, "Meuse- Argonne Offensive," borders the top of the composition. Reverse 4A portrays two soldiers advancing cautiously through the bombed, desolate, and dangerous Argonne Forest during the Meuse-Argonne Offensive, while the third covers them using a Chauchat machine gun. The additional inscription, "Meuse-Argonne Offensive," arcs across the top. And finally -- no, sorry. There are more. Reverse 5 portrays three soldiers advancing through the Argonne Forest, again, during the Meuse-Argonne Offensive. The additional inscription includes "Meuse- Argonne Offensive" and "1918." Reverse 7 portrays three soldiers fighting in difficult terrain. In the field is the World War I era emblem of the U.S. Army. And Reverse 8 depicts the World War I era Army emblem. That's the obverse and reverse portfolios. Here, we see the reverses, and back to the obverses one more time. Okay. Madam Chair. MARY LANNIN: Thank you, April. Heidi, would you like to begin speaking about these? HEIDI WASTWEET: Not really. APRIL STAFFORD: Oh, I -- I'm so sorry. MARY LANNIN: Okay. APRIL STAFFORD: Madam Chair, the CFA, I indicated to the committee earlier, met this past Thursday and made recommendations for this portfolio. They found that Reverse 5 was recommended for use as the obverse, and for the reverse, they recommended Reverse 3. Additionally, we were to have Dr. Erik Villard here to speak, he was our liaison for the Army. I don't believe Dr. Villard is with us yet; is that correct, Pam? PAM BORER: That's my understanding. APRIL STAFFORD: So, we apologize for that. He's -- he may have some difficulty. MARY LANNIN: Thank you. Donald, would you like to begin speaking about this? DONALD SCARINCI: GREG WEINMAN: I can't -- You can say you're present, by the way, too, for the record. DONALD SCARINCI: I'm sorry that I can't support any of these designs, and I can't lend my name to it. It's -- you know, I've been -- I've long been an advocate of the U.S. Mint making medals, and I understand the long-time reluctance of the marketing department to point to medals and say, well, they don't sell. You know, they -- you reproduce Congressional Gold Medals in bronze, and yes, you're right, they don't sell. And the few times that we've been doing medals in recent -- in the recent past, not only have they sold but they've been blockbusters. I mean, the Roosevelt Medal, which sold out in two weeks. The Liberty Medal. I mean -- and you have to say, well, why? do medals sell? Why Because, obviously, they have -- you know, they're not authorized by Congress, they have no monetary value, they can be -- theoretically, can be reproduced, but they sell because the designs are pretty. And I think what history has shown, recent history especially, has shown is when the design is pretty, when the medal is appealing, the medal will sell, and it will sell quickly. Here, we have an unusual situation. And I was on the committee that did the coin, and I could say this about the coin that has not yet been revealed, the coin more of a modernist interpretation, and it is creative. HEIDI WASTWEET: And beautiful. DONALD SCARINCI: It is, artistically, a beautiful design and probably an award winner. It is metal blank in it's -- it has metal blank qualities of it. It's a beautiful piece. We'll have a coin that looks like a medal, and then we'll have medals that look like coins. And all of them, technically, if -- certainly, if I were commissioning them for a private organization, I'd be delighted with them all. I mean, you know, the workmanship is -- you know, the art, it's standard, it's -- certainly, I'd proud to have it as a private little design committee telling artists what I want on the coin. But they're not inspiring, they're not creative, and they're certainly, you know, "same old, same old." And here's the problem. complement the coin at all. a separate product. They're not going to They're really going to be And if anybody buys them, it'll be people from the various branches of the military who feel committed to buying them. They're not something that are going to have general -- none of these designs are going to have general collector appeal. And they're coming in this year, 2017, when mints around the world have been commemorating World War I since 2014. And they've been commemorating World War I -- when you look at the coin designs, some of them have already won awards from mints around the world. Some of the designs are sheer, you know -- sheerly -- absolutely magnificent. I mean, you know, some of these Australian silhouettes -- you've got some beautiful pieces, you know, for the last two years, three years coming out of World Mints commemorating World War I. All right? So there's already War World I fatigue in the collector market. Okay? And now you're going to come out with a beautiful coin, which is really, I think, going to really captivate people, and I'm sorry I can't share that with you, you know, and say more about it, but it'll captivate people. And then you're going to come out with medals that, at best, are a yawn. They look like -- they really look like everything else the Mint's done for Congressional Gold Medals. They look like something you would buy from the Franklin Mint. They look like something, you know, you might buy from some club somewhere that had a little design committee commemorate some World War I activity. There's nothing special about any of these, and there's certainly nothing that I think is going to captivate people to buy them. And then what's going to happen? They're not going to sell, and then the marketing department's going to say, you see, we told you medals don't sell, and you're giving us -- you know, so why should we do any more medals? So I think if we go forward with any of these designs, I think the goose may die, and the medal goose may die. And the marketing department will dig its heels in, and I just don't see the public buying these things, I'm sorry. And I certainly think it's almost comical in juxtaposition, especially if you market the two of them, and maybe that's how you market them, you know, we have medals that look like coins and coins that look like medals. I don't know. But there's just nothing here that I could support in any of these designs. And I can't even -- honestly, you know, whatever the CFA -- if you can't give us new designs, you know, it doesn't really matter. Whatever the CFA did, they did. I mean, and if you have to go with it, you have to go with it, but you go with it with a warning, certainly from me, that when it fails, please don't blame medals and please don't say medals don't sell, because medals need to be something special for people to buy them, and they're not coins. You know, coins pretty much -- look, even the Girl Scout coin, I bought it, right? them. Right? Because I collect So even the generals that had mintages of, what, 5,000, right? I mean, nobody bought those. They were boring portrait coins. I mean, we said -- we told the host committee at the time, they're boring portrait coins, nobody's going to buy them. happened? And what Nobody bought them except me and a handful of the dedicated collectors who collect the modern commemorative issues that have to buy them. I have to buy them. It doesn't matter if it looks like, you know -- if it looks subpar. Okay? See? I'm watching my language. You know, it doesn't matter if it looks plain old, plain old. ordinary. It doesn't matter if it looks It doesn't even matter if it's ugly. It -- when it's a coin, and I collect the series, I have to buy it, so I'm trapped into buying it. That's not the case with medals. I don't have to buy these medals. Well, I kind of do because I collect U.S. Mint medals, and I even bought all the code talker medals, right. bought all the code talker medals? them were pretty cool. Right? But who And some of But this is going to go in that direction, and maybe depending on how you price it, people might buy it as bullion -- as a bullion alternative. I mean, who knows. But I just don't think -- and when we talk about mintage figures, by the way, for medals, we're not talking about the same thing as we're talking about with coins. You know, 5,000 is an extremely low mintage for coins. Therefore, these ugly commemoratives that we do, like the Girl Scouts and the generals, those will turn out to be, you know, the more valuable ones. Right? The Robinson Gold Coin sells for $5,000 in the secondary market. So, you know, I mean, the point is ugly coins, low mintages, that's good, all right, from a value point of view. Medals, you know, typically, have low mintages. I mean, you know, you very rarely see medals at more than 300. medal. A mintage of 300 is a high-mintage The most popular Society of Medalists medal was probably the first one, and that was the highest mintage. THOMAS URAM: Frasers. DONALD SCARINCI: The Frasers medals. So -- and that was 3,000, so only 3,000. THOMAS URAM: Dogs sell, though. DONALD SCARINCI: And you can still buy them. You can still buy those things for pretty, you know -for pretty much, you know, for under $50. So, in any event, I'm -- I think the -- look, I think for what these are, if they were coins, and I really think the artists did what they were asked to do, I think probably the people, the historians, you know, kind of got a little carried away with themselves, and that's -- but art's not their thing, history is. You know, and historically, these are pretty cool, right? Artistically, they're a disaster. So I just can't support any of these designs, and at the end of listening to everybody, you know, my inclination is to make a motion to reject all the designs and see if we can come up with new ones. The beauty of possibly coming up with new ones, and I know medals are a low priority, is that the United States Mint did the impossible, did what no private mint ever did before, ever. They produced a coin in 38 days, all right, from legislation, to -from signed legislation to coin in 38 days. it; the U.S. Mint did that. that, we could do this. All right? They did So if they did I know it's a low priority, but I would show the artists the coin that's been selected, and let them use that coin to inspire them to more creatively and artistically depict these things -and depict these images. something that will last. And then I think you have I mean, and the last thing I want to say is, what I've said for a very, very -- for many, many years in this committee, is the medal -- a medal program and producing medals, like we're doing with these Liberty Medals, what are we doing with the Liberty Medals? The Liberty Medals are trying to come up with giving the artists a challenge. In a medal, you're giving the artist the challenge to be creative and come up with symbols of liberty for the 21st century. Depict the symbols that we prize as Americans in 21st century ways, using 21st century symbology instead of Civil War shields and faces and things that don't really mean anything to a school kid today, don't really mean anything to most adults today, right? The Civil War is a history today, an important piece of history but history. And we're coming up with new images. and we're not alone in doing this. The UK's been doing it for a while. We're -- The UK is doing it. They got their public to buy into incredible modernist designs. You know, the latest King Canute in 2017, you know, King Canute would roll over in his grave to see King Canute. I mean, it's so not his ethic -- his aesthetic, but, you know, they're doing it. The Paris Mint even is doing new depictions of liberty fraternity. We're not. You know, we're doing it with our medals, and we're slowly using that medal program to -- for -- as a creative outlet for artists and as a way for the public to see and accept more modernist designs and to bring American coinage more in line with what's going on in the rest of the world. All right? Because that's what's going on in the rest of the world, and we're not there yet, all right. But the medals are the way to do it. This goes backwards. This goes backwards. This, you know, it -- we just got a little too carried away with the political correctness of making sure we've made the right statement on the coin and depicted the right image, and -- but we forgot about the art. We didn't pay attention to the art, and we certainly didn't show the artist the selected coin design. I think that needed to happen. They needed to see what the coin's going to look like so that when the marketing department packages this thing with, here's the medals and here's the coin -- and I really believe -- and I can't -- I don't want to speak for Rhett, but I think, you know -I think that was Rhett's vision, you know, and that was -- and he was a real promoter of coins. believed in it, you know. He really But when you listen to what Rhett said about coins, he was -- about medals, he was really kind of saying what I -- what I've been saying for so many years. It gives a -- it gives the Mint an opportunity, you know. And, unfortunately, we're in a transitional phase, and it is what it is. But, you know, it -- and a great idea is not translating. And if we go forward with these designs, I'm really concerned that we're going to get a big I-told-you-so from the marketing department. And they're going to be wrong, but they're going to have empirical data to show why they -- why we can't do medals again. MARY LANNIN: to step in here. Okie-doke. As Chair, I'm going What I'd like to say is that I understand what you're saying about the designs because there really were only three of us on that sub- committee that saw what the coin is going to be like. However, we've got 10 very talented people sitting around this table, and I believe that we can take a look at these designs, and through discussion and through motions, if necessary, can make something that we would be proud of that would go along with this. We have a built-in audience for every branch of service for these medals. We don't know how many are going to be struck, and we've got a lot of stuff invested in this right now. So I'd like to see some positive comments, I hope, on what we're looking at, and see what we can add or subtract to get closer to your vision of something that's modern. I agree that some of the artists' renditions seem very claustrophobic to me. There's too much stuff going on. (Announcement from the United States Mint Police) MARY LANNIN: GREG WEINMAN: Well, that's a first. Unless we go to instructions (inaudible). (Off topic comments) GREG WEINMAN: We'll continue until and unless the police to tell us to move. MARY LANNIN: GREG WEINMAN: Okay. Fine. Thank you. By the way, let me jump in, I believe Mr. Abdul-Jabbar is on the line as well at this point. MARY LANNIN: Kareem, welcome. KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: Thank you very much. Nice to be here. MARY LANNIN: And thank you for getting up kind of early in California. So, anyway, that's my take -KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: Very early. I'm so sorry it took -- I had a hard time finding you guys on the phone waves here, but I made it, thank heavens. MARY LANNIN: Well, thank you, and we hope to see you soon in person, okay? KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: MARY LANNIN: Absolutely. All right. KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: MARY LANNIN: Okay. Absolutely, yeah. So, anyway, that's my take on the portfolio that we have today. different art on a lot of it? Would I like to see Yes, I would. But let's use all of our talents, and with the Mint personnel here, to see what we can come up with that we're going to be happy about. I'd rather dwell on the positive side of all of this art than the negative side, okay? I can imagine that Rhett is probably out there somewhere calling every Marine buddy he knows in the world, and if we get Belleau Wood on the medal, we're good to go. So, anyway, that's what I'd like to say. Dennis, may I call on you next? APRIL STAFFORD: MARY LANNIN: Madam Chair. I apologize -- I'm sorry. APRIL STAFFORD: -- Mr. Tucker. When appropriate and convenient to the discussion, one of our historians would like to, you know, introduce a comment into discussion just in general about these medals and what they represent. MARY LANNIN: Would -- how about -- APRIL STAFFORD: MARY LANNIN: Is now appropriate? Now is appropriate. HEIDI WASTWEET: Now is great. APRIL STAFFORD: Okay. ANNETTE AMERMAN: Okay. Thank you. My name is Annette Amerman. I'm with the Marine Corps History Division, and I just wanted to say that the gentleman had several excellent points. And when you're talking about a coin or a medal, it's kind of hard to represent an entire war on that face, or the obverse and the reverse. But I can assure you, the Marine Corps will buy these coins like you would never see before. I can tell you that as the commemorative person for publications and a symposium we're doing in '18, I have family members coming out of the woodwork that never thought about the Marine Corps in World War I before, until they realized, oh, Grandpa was in the war. Grandpa didn't do anything. He came home. But they still want to be a part of it. This is also goes perfectly in line with the history of challenge coins in the military. They are well-received and exchanged amongst the different members. It is a very popular thing to do. If I had one on me, I would've given it to you, but I'm out of them. I mean, it's that kind of thing. And I'm sure that Dennis Conrad over there at Navy can agree with me on this. But as far as the artwork design, you're right. I'm a historian. I'm not an artist. can't do that. I'm not an art historian. So I can say that's great because I I look forward to seeing what happens, though, but I can assure you, don't worry, the Marine Corps will make sure their coins are bought. MARY LANNIN: right. Thank you, Ms. Amerman. All Dennis, please. DENNIS TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. Is this on? MARY LANNIN: I think so. DENNIS TUCKER: right off the bat. Oh. I would ask a question Are these going to be mintage in proof format? PAM BORER: Yes. DENNIS TUCKER: Okay. They will be proof format? PAM BORER: Yes. MARY LANNIN: DENNIS TUCKER: Yes. In the Numismatic Forum last year, we discussed medals in one of our great obsessions, and mintage limits were something we discussed as being something that encourages people to buy, and also the fact that they're silver. So in addition to having a built-in audience in the different service branches, I think that those are things for the Mint to think about. I appreciate everything Donald said, I mean, he made some great points. But in terms of the designs that we've been presented with, my approach to studying these was to -- I -- my preference would be to avoid a challenge coin approach, where we have the branch emblem on the reverse, although I understand that that might be something that's popular and will sell. APRIL STAFFORD: Sorry. having an issue hearing you. DENNIS TUCKER: The transcriber's Thank you. So my approach to studying these designs was to -- I prefer to see a design, you know robust design for the obverse and also for the reverse rather than having a branch emblem. For the obverses, I tried to look for a human element as opposed to a technical or a battle action element showing an American serviceman, the process of mobilization -- basically, the before in the before and after of going over there. And for the reverses, I looked for the after, and that would be the servicemen, the armed forces actually in action in the war. So for the Army obverse, I preferred Number 4, which is this kind of iconic propaganda style of depiction of a doughboy ready for battle. American flag in the background. inscription, "Over There." He has the We have the We also have the dual dates, which I feel is important, 1918 and 2018. And combined with that obverse, I actually preferred Reverse 7, which does incorporate the Army emblem with the depiction of troops in action, and I think that that's to the branch's contributions to the winning of the war. They're actually fighting. So obverse, they're preparing for war. They're ready to fight. propagandistic. It's patriotic. It's a bit On the reverse, they're engaging in battle, and, ultimately, that's what helped win the war. I think for the obverse, I think the depictions in Number 3 of the accoutrements of war, the material of war, the shovel, the bayonet, I don't know if -- I don't think it captures the human element. I think it's too technical, perhaps, might not really speak to people -- to consumers. I think that sums up my comments and thoughts on these obverses and reverses. MARY LANNIN: Thank you so much, Dennis. Erik, your thoughts? ERIK JANSEN: Thank you. the CFA's recommendation on this? APRIL STAFFORD: THOMAS URAM: Can you reiterate I'm confused. Sure, absolutely. Reverse 5. APRIL STAFFORD: They actually recommended that a reverse be used as the obverse; specifically, that's Reverse 5 as depicted here. And they did across all five medals select the appropriate emblem for the reverse. Here, it's Reverse 3. ERIK JANSEN: Okay. Because I had read differently in the press, that they had recommended, I think, Obverse 6 with Reverse -- the reverse you described. APRIL STAFFORD: There was some conversation about Reverse 6. They did appreciate it. just call it Reverse 6. ERIK JANSEN: We could They did appreciate -Obverse 6. APRIL STAFFORD: Obverse. Excuse me. 6, they did appreciate its composition. Obverse They thought it was an interesting modern take, but the ultimate recommendation was the one that's depicted there in the current -ERIK JANSEN: Okay. Thanks for clarifying that, because I had seen 6 in the press. I'm frustrated with this process. And I don't agree entirely with Donald's dire assessment, but I echo some of Dennis's comments. We'll get comments on the other four choices today -- the other four branches today, but I'm frustrated with the kind of random nonstructure we have here. And the CFA clearly jumped on that and put symbols on the reverses of all of their recommendations, I think, to try to create some structure. I was also frustrated that the charge here was to go after critical contributions, and so few of these designs really homed in on that. That on an obverse- reverse approach, to put contribution on the obverses, and then some kind of more generic artwork for the branch on the reverses, I find it impossible to enforce the structure here. So I'm frustrated with that. I'm frustrated with pictures on medals. Medallic art, in my mind, just to simplify things to kind of medallic art for dummies, is highly symbolized. And we're lacking symbols and, once again, long on pictures, so I'm frustrated. I'm frustrated that with the techniques that the mints are using these days to create long-life proof attributes in high-volume strikes that some of these very busy spaces are just going to turn into frosted blobs. We've seen that on some of our circulating coinage designs, and I think some of these that lack negative space are going to turn into that, and I'll mention that specifically in a minute. So I'm frustrated here because I want this program to be successful. But I think it is -- it's coming out of the corner to fight here really, really with its hands tied behind its back. I'm concerned because I sense the demand in the challenge coin kind of domain here. I know that's a rich, vibrant, wonderful practice, and between the things I've described, which is going to take away from the energy of the program and the price point, the silver, I think the challenge is going to be left in people's pockets and not exchanged. And to that, I'm going to say is there any thought, plan, opportunity to do a bronze version of these, to offer a lower price point that could vitalize that challenge dynamic of people trading more than holding the bullion value? APRIL STAFFORD: So the request and the approved ask that came down from Treasury was that these be made in the same metal that the commemorative coin is made in. And for the record, I know we talked about it upstairs, but the idea is that each of the medals individually would be packaged with the commemorative coin. ERIK JANSEN: Right. APRIL STAFFORD: And so while absolutely you're right, they should be tied together in a structure, individually, they would be representative of (inaudible). ERIK JANSEN: Okay. Well, I think the marketing is going to be critical to the success of the program. But what concerns me is in that tandem marketing, a commemorative World War I coin with a respective medal for one branch of the service, that's going to be a $110 price point, and I don't think that really lends itself to the kind of challenge coin dynamics, unfortunately, where they're given away and traded as tokens of esteem and respect and acknowledgement. So I just -- for the record, it would've been really, really interesting if these might've been offered in a lower price product for that domain. For the individual designs, I'm a bit torn between, quite frankly, a pretty coin, I think Dennis used the word propagandist, politically correct design, which is beautiful and wonderful, and quite frankly, the horrors of war. We have a design here which does a wonderful job of putting the horrors of war in our face, and that would be, I think, Obverse 3 as well as the purely symbolic, no text version Reverse 2. It's a striking design of medallic symbology. It's not pleasant to contemplate because war is a horror. like the design. I I don't think it's a great choice in terms of making the product sell well. I think the best design to make the product sell well will fall apart in proof. That is Obverse 6. The artist investing the story here is wonderful. The man -- the soldier cutting the perimeter wire is a brilliant use of an artistic mechanism here. But again, in proof, it'll become a frosted blob and all you'll see is a guy in the foreground with a face and a gun shooting, which maybe is enough for the Army, I don't know. It -- I wish the design had some negative space in there. In proof, I think it will fall apart. The propagandist, successful design just to make this thing crank and do some volume is Obverse Number 4, and I'll leave my comments at that on the obverse. On the reverse, I'm stuck with trying to pick something that's not identical to Obverse 4, and it's really hard to come up with something here. So I probably would say I'm just not happy with any of these because we already have -- if I recommend Obverse 4, we already have a persona on the front, and now I guess I'm stuck with either horror, the eagle symbol, or shoot-them-up on the back. And I'm not happy. I don't have a recommendation. MARY LANNIN: Thank you, Erik. I'd like to remind everyone on the committee that it's almost quarter to 11:00, and we've got four more branches of service before a 12:30 break. So, Robert, may I speak -- may you give your recommendations next. ROBERT HOGE: I will be very brief. I actually would reiterate a lot of what Donald said, not in so many words, but other colleagues have expressed my opinions as well. I am in complete accord with most of what Dennis and Erik have said. I like these designs because I kind of like military collectibles, and that's just really what this shows. It's an array of historical images. designed as two-dimensional pieces. illustrators. These are They are by They are not sculptural. I think this program as a whole is something that I'd probably be against, and I don't really have a particular recommendation, although I really do like some of the designs very much. I think that the image, Obverse 3, and its counterpart as a reverse is very powerful, and this is probably what we think of in terms of the military -Army pieces for World War I. I have a question about the rifle. This is the '03 Springfield, but the weapons shown carried by the other soldiers in the other images is something different. THOMAS URAM: Yeah. ROBERT HOGE: And what is that? Maybe some of you can explain it. with us? MARY LANNIN: Okay? ROBERT HOGE: That's it. MARY LANNIN: Okay. Kareem, are you still I don't want to forget about you. KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: I am still with you. I'm right here. MARY LANNIN: Well, good. weigh in on these designs? Would you like to KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: Yes. I -- in seeing them, they -- I am reminded of the Harlem Hellfighters who made a very big impression on everybody when they got to the -- the forces came back to New York from (inaudible). The 369th, they marched up Fifth Avenue to Harlem, and they got up, crossed 110th Street, started playing "Here Comes Daddy," a very popular song. I thought that something that acknowledged the contributions of a very special unit from Harlem might be appropriate here. MARY LANNIN: So the Harlem -- the 369th, you said? KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: MARY LANNIN: Yes. Okay. KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: The Hellfighters. They were called the Hellfighters. MARY LANNIN: Okay. KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: They had to fight for the -- they had to -- they were assigned to fight with the French because of different segregationist attitudes in the American Army. So the French needed bodies, so they said we'll take all of them, and they started out fighting for the French in Argonne. And then they distinguished themselves so much they were -the unit was given a Croix de Guerre by the French government in recognition of their service at a very crucial time. And I think it's a very special moment in American history and it might be a nice acknowledgement because they've not been acknowledged for so long. MARY LANNIN: Well, thank you, Kareem. something that I was unaware of. That's But of the art that we do have in front of us -KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: MARY LANNIN: Oh. -- did you have a particular one that you want -- that spoke to you that you'd like to talk about? KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: Yes. The one that I liked was the one -- the obverse of Number 5. MARY LANNIN: Okay. Army Obverse Number 5. All right. KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: MARY LANNIN: that spoke to you? Yes. And did you have any reverse KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: Not really. Reverses are pretty standard, you know, especially (inaudible) so consistent on our coin that (inaudible). I think if they would come up with a little bit more -- something different. Oh, and one other thing, President Roosevelt had commissioned Saint-Gaudens to do some really nice designs for use in -- at this time period, and maybe one of those would be appropriate, just as a look-back to some of these designs that Mr. Saint-Gaudens did that weren't used. MARY LANNIN: All right. Well, thank you for your insight. KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: MARY LANNIN: HERMAN VIOLA: MARY LANNIN: HERMAN VIOLA: Thank you. Herman, may I call on you next? Yes, you may. All right. Thank you very much. First of all, I'm a member of the World War I Commission, so I can assure you that they're watching all of this, or are anxious to know what's going on here. And I would say that there's an immense interest around the world on these coins. too concerned about the sales, frankly. idea of the Marines. And I'm not I share the You know, I was in the Navy. I'm -- the military branches will buy these, and there's a great deal of public interest out there across the world. So that's a thing that I don't think you have to worry too much about, if the Mint will lose money. I also thought the designs, the artists really did very, very good work. You know, from a technical point of view, the military it took and everything is quite accurate. So, again, that's well done. But it does look a little bit, if you look at it, like comic book art, in a sense. So it's hard to really pick what I think is really appropriate. own feeling for the obverse was Number 4. one. But my I liked that And I really have no problem with having the emblem on the reverse. You know, I was -- we sailors always carried for our patches, and I see no problem with that. But I defer to other opinions on this, but that's where I am. Thank you. MARY LANNIN: MICHAEL MORAN: Thank you so much. Thank you, Mary. Mr. Moran? When I first saw these, I struggled with what went wrong, and because I sat on that jury, I know what went right with that original silver dollar commemorative coin. beautiful piece. It's a It captures a soldier in a poignant battle -- moment of battle on the obverse, and the reverse is a beautiful symbolism of poppies and barbed wire. I kept looking for something that either complemented that design, which these medals should do, or contrasted with that design. I was very hard- pressed to find very many of the designs that would do it, and all of them that I saw that possibly did it were inferior. What I did see was a lot of competition with that design, and was not in the same level of quality whatsoever. As a result, I pretty much blew through these. There are a few that I can like, but they're just okay. There are a lot that I don't like at all, and there's some execution of things like hands -- placement of the hands on the rifle -- on the stock of the rifle, in particular on one where he's got to have Velcro on the palm of his hand to hold that thing. The helmets are not uniformly done. I don't like the idea of combat scenes on obverse and reverse. I think it's redundant. I see poor use of negative space. lot of them. I see clutter in a I did not see that last June with the (inaudible) quarters, and I'm wondering why we took a step backwards on these. the boats. There's no smoke coming out of those stacks on several of them. that? I look at the Navy one with Why? How did that get to us like And the frustration continued to grow as I looked at all of these. We have another issue in that it's going to be difficult to distinguish between the Marines and the Army, because they both wore the same uniform, used the same weapons. I think the only way you can really get that is to put the battle -- names of the battles on there, obviously. But you also need to do the service emblems on the back. I also would say that the service emblems prevent you from doing a duplication on front and back that you run the risk of in any other scenario. All that said, I need to try and end this on a positive note, so I'm pretty much in Donald's ballpark on this. I don't like the concept designed by committee. I've seen us try and do that in the past, and we venture into any major redesigns, we fall on our face because we're not artists, either. And I don't think you've got the material, particularly on the Navy side, to do anything to fix them. At the same time, I want to encourage the Mint, in terms of going forward, that the concept is right to leverage the medals with the commemorative coin market, so if you actually access both of them, it will increase your sales. profits. It gives you incremental It's the right thing to do. But in the end, art sells coins and medals, and we don't have the right art here. MARY LANNIN: Thank you, Michael. Tom? THOMAS URAM: Thank you, Madam Chairman. I'd like to first start out with a comment, and that is that I had a chance to speak at several Lions Clubs regarding their lions coin, and I just wanted to say Erik was talking about frosting and so forth, and I know three or four years ago, we really didn't have quite enough. But I think I'd just like to make a comment to The Mint that let's maybe scale it down a little, because those three animals that were on the back, the three, the tiger -- I'm sorry, the lion, the cub, and so forth kind of just blended too much together when I was at a meeting there. And it's such a great design, I was a little disappointed to see that we didn't have enough differentiation. So a positive comment would be that maybe to take a look at that, and scale that back to have the best that you can make. And even when you look at the proofed sets of -- with the quarters, and Mike just gave me the Effigy Mounds here, I think we need to revisit that when you guys have a chance. Now, onto the medals, and first of all, I just want to make the comment, I agree on the reverse. If those of you remember, or if you want to take a look, here's the 2005 Marine reverse. This coin sold out in two days, if you recall, in 2005. It commemorated the 230th anniversary of the Marines. And if you remember, this was the obverse design. And not only that, did it sell out, but it got Coin of the Year at the time as well. So I realize it's a little more difficult with medals, but my vision of a medal is to have -- first of all, I agree with the CFA, and I think every military unit agrees that they -- they're proud of their symbol. They're proud of what they represent. And I agree, I think the reverse should depict the insignias of each branch accordingly. As far as the designs go, as far as medals go, I would've liked to have seen something other than circular. I would've liked to have seen octagonal. would've liked to have seen a square. to have seen maybe the Pentagon. I I would've like Boy, you can make a medal out of the pentagon and put some of this stuff in there. That's what medals are about. Medals are about being creative. And nothing against what you were mentioning - the representative mentioned about the challenge coins. And I -- as a member of this committee who looks at other Mints and says I like color, that's what makes the challenge coin, some of the challenge coins with the enamel. Don't forget, you have a small palette here, and you're not going to get the enamel and the depth that you think you're going to get in the challenge coin. And so I love challenge coins, and I wish these could've been that. I wish they would've been challenge medals where we could've used some enamel or whatever it might be, because I think that would be -you could really do some great work in enhancing The Mint's opportunity here. So I would be more in favor of that sort of creativity as regards to the designs. With some of that creativity, you can really cover some bad designs and ideas with some creativity. I would -- you know, I think medals are -- with medals, you -- it's like a steak. You sell the sizzle, you don't sell the steak. And with these medals, you could really make them creative in conjunction with the dollar. So as far as the designs go, reverse, I totally agree. I think the symbols and those depictions. And then I'm going to -- for a lack of better, you know, judgment on this here, I'm just going to defer to the CFA designs. I thought that they were -- if that's where we end up, that's where we'll end up. But I think we've missed an opportunity to make it more creative. Thank you, Madam Chairman. MARY LANNIN: Thanks, Tom. HEIDI WASTWEET: Heidi? Thank you. Before I review the designs in front of us, I'd like to preface by saying, in looking at this program as a whole with the dollar and these five medals, we're sending a message that women had no role in this at all. There's not a single woman represented here, and I know that women were very much involved. They were in the medics, they were in the home front, building the mechanics, the ammunitions, and taking up the jobs that the men left behind. They were sacrificing their fathers, their sons, and their husbands, and I think it's disrespectful to completely ignore their contribution. But that is not before us here today. If it were up to me, I would add another coin to this series, maybe a home front version. But I'll set that aside for now. I just wanted to put that on the record, and I will move forward, concentrating on that that we have in front of us. I think I have a solution where we could salvage what we have in front of us. I agree with everything my colleagues have said so far, and Don put it most pointedly that we have -(Announcement from the United States Mint Police) MARY LANNIN: Okay, Heidi. HEIDI WASTWEET: Don said it most pointedly when he said we have a coin that looks like a medal, and now we have medals that look like coins. And if anyone has looked at an exhibit of medals, specifically, the FIDEM, which is the international exhibit of medals from around the world, one of the biggest differences between those medals and what we're looking at here today is we have an overabundance of verbiage on these. You will not see those in an international exhibit of medals. And many of these -- I'd say 90 percent of these designs, the text is an afterthought, and they would stand on their own without any text. And I'm also in agreement with Erik saying that in an effort to organize -- I think that's where we got to talking about having the emblem on the reverse, and I'm okay with that as an organizing factor. So my suggestion would be to make these look more like medals and less like coins is to take all the verbiage off the front and put it on the back with the insignia, so that we can have just the artwork on the obverse so it would look more like a medal, and organize all of our verbiage with the emblem on the back so we have all of our bases covered. And if we look at Army Obverse 3, and then contrast that with Reverse 2, you can see what I'm talking about. one doesn't. This looks like a medal, and the first And the difference is that the verbiage was removed and the addition of the bullets down below completes this composition. of a coin. It makes this art instead And I think in most of these designs we could do the same thing with it. So if we could focus on the art, because a lot of effort was put into these, a lot of research, the -kudos to the artists who drew all these; they did a great job. If we can find those bits of art here and take off the verbiage, I think we might have some medals. So moving with that idea, as some others are gravitating toward Obverse 4, I, too, like this, and if we just take off all that wording and don't be afraid of negative space, negative space adds a lot, this would be a nice, simple, and slightly nostalgic but beautiful coin. I also like Obverse 6 for its creativity, but I agree with previous statements, there's a lot going on here. It's going to be a lot of frosting. The broken trees in the background don't really add anything. Reverse 5 I think is interesting because of the perspective of following the soldiers, but a lot of this detail, the texture, while it looks okay in the drawing here, on the medal I can guarantee you it won't look like this. I also like Reverse 7 and the organization of the characters and the repetition of the guns. an artistic element. It adds That concludes my comments. MARY LANNIN: ideas. Thank you, Heidi. Great Jeanne? JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you. I think my question to the artists, especially to The Mint, is what is it that we're trying to achieve in this series? Are we telling a story? Are we showing a movie? we, you know, sending postcards? Are Or are we, you know, making sure that the public understands what was going on during World War I and how America succeeded with some victories -- or a lot of victories? I think we need to address that issue, or at least I do when I'm looking at these coins. And I'm afraid I'd like to see text on a medal, I think it's really important. Sometimes, you have text on the reverse, as Heidi suggested, but it's often necessary to indicate what it is about. Sometimes, it just is a helpful thing. The text has to be extraordinary. And I don't know if we have any very extraordinary text here. We have a lot of research, a lot of wonderful stories being told, and I was very moved by what I saw. then when I think about putting it on such a tiny But planchet, it gets me very nervous. I don't know we're doing the right thing. So I mean to recommend obverse-reverse at this point, it's very difficult. MARY LANNIN: Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Jeanne. I would just like to add that I think Heidi is -- has come up with a possible solution for us, and it's made me look at the art in a completely different way. And I tend to like Obverse 4 because of the resulting negative space on that. So we will save our votes to -- Greg, do you want the votes now, or -GREG WEINMAN: want? It's up to you. What do you We can wait -HEIDI WASTWEET: We -- I just think we should talk about the whole series. MARY LANNIN: series. We should talk about the whole I agree, Heidi. So we will next go to our next branch of the Armed Services. And -- APRIL STAFFORD: MARY LANNIN: Shall I begin, Madam Chair? Yes, please. APRIL STAFFORD: All righty. We will start with the Navy obverses. Obverse 1 depicts a four piper destroyer targeting an enemy submarine by launching depth charges off the stern. An additional depth charge explodes in the background, and in the sky, kite balloons patrol for submarines and other dangers. Obverse 2 depicts the USS Wadsworth escorting a convoy having just deployed a depth charge. Obverse 3 features the USS Fanning, an iconic four piper destroyer, in razzle dazzle camouflage paint, while U.S. sailors from a nearby ship look on. The reverses. Reverse 1 features American soldiers disembarking from a troop transport, representing the Navy's critical role in the protection of troops and equipment. Below, a four piper destroyer commands the seas as it escorts a military convoy in the distance. The additional inscription refers to a famous quote attributed to Commander Joseph Taussig. When the first U.S. Naval destroyer division arrived in Queenstown, Ireland, the British commander asked Commander Taussig when his squadron would be ready for service. Reportedly, he replied, "We are ready now, sir," further underscoring America's commitment to the war effort. Reverse 2 depicts the USS Cunningham, representing U.S. Naval destroyers arriving at Queenstown, Ireland, in May 1917 with the World War I era Navy emblem in the field. Additional inscriptions include, "Return of the Mayflower" and "We are ready now, sir." Reverse 3 showcases the World War I era Navy emblem. Madam Chair? MARY LANNIN: Thank you, April. Dennis, would you like to lend us your thoughts? DENNIS TUCKER: All three of the obverses depict scenes rather than symbols. Of the scenes shown, I prefer the ones that are active. That would be either 1 or 2. Number 2, my concern is that on a canvas an inch and a half wide, it's going to look like the ship itself is exploding rather than a depth charge. I prefer 1 because it does have the action. It shows different elements of the Navy's activity in the war. None of these meet my formula of showing a before and after, but of the three, I prefer 1. For the reverse, I prefer Reverse 1, but it seems like we're moving more towards the service branch emblems. But of the ones, the designs shown here, my preference is Number 1. MARY LANNIN: Thank you, Dennis. And I would be reverse without introducing Dr. Dennis Conrad and Matt Cheser, who are both with the Navy. Thank you very much for attending. Erik, would you like to address next? ERIK JANSEN: response as Dennis. On the obverse, I've a similar I'm looking for some energy here, which leaves Obverse 1 and 2 in place. I'm concerned that we have a sculpting challenge here, especially in a frosted space, whereas the black and white line drawings that we have here, Obverse 2 shows nice energy from the explosion on the horizon. That is going to be totally lost, I think, in the sculpt and the frost. So I'm really concerned about that because I think without that on this design -- we have some energy in the waves, I like the curved rendition to open a negative space for text on the bottom. I'm kind of at a loss. I'm tempted to kind of jump in here and kind of do a Heidi and say how can we take some text off of this front and create a medallic not a coinage design. And with that, I'm almost willing to keep "Over There" in big bold text. So follow me here. If we were to take Design 1 and take all the text off of that and perhaps even strike the perimeter line that's put there to demarcate the text that's there across from the 10 to the 2 o'clock position, just open the sky and bleed it to the edge, take United States Navy off, and leave "Over There" in text in the water, it's still a bit of an engraving challenge to keep the frost of the smoke out of the stacks and the frost of the depth charge in the background from becoming too unidentifiable consumers of otherwise good negative space. Maybe you have a simple by design that could turn into something useful here. I'm just concerned. I like elements of Design Number 2. I like the wave and the waves creating the space at the bottom, but if we do a similar "Over There" there, "Over There" just is barely there; it's too small there, and it just looks funny there. So I'm concerned with there there in that way. HEIDI WASTWEET: ERIK JANSEN: Here, here. Here, here, there, there. When you go to the reverse, because we've selected a large boat on the front, I'm really hesitant to even consider Reverse 2. I don't think there's much energy there, and the boat looks very -- if a boat could be stilted, that's what a stilted boat looks like. So I'm down to 1 and 2 -- 1 and 3, and just to put some structure to this series, I think 3 helps it sell more than 1 does. So I end up Reverse 3 with modified obverse. MARY LANNIN: Thank you, Erik. ERIK JANSEN: Yeah. MARY LANNIN: Kareem, are you with us? Kareem right now. No Robert? ROBERT HOGE: Thank you, Mary. My grandfather served in the Navy in the First World War, and, unfortunately, I don't think any of these designs really captured his experience. He died long before I was born, but through family legacies, I know his greatest impression of the war was that every single sailor on his vessel was ill, extremely ill, and that the less ill ones treated the more severely ill ones. They weren't in any particularly dangerous actions, you know, other than this convoy kind of thing, but I don't know. Somehow these things are kind of lost. It's hard to show much of a boat to include any significant detail on this tiny little design. I think that the Navy emblem, Reverse 3, is probably a fairly good bet as a reverse type. And I'm loathed to suggest an obverse because, while the designs are nice enough, they do show some action here, trying to show smoke on a three-dimensional piece I think is a challenge that probably is not going to work very well in this -- in these proofs, frosted services. Mary, that's about it. MARY LANNIN: Okay, thank you. DONALD SCARINCI: really nailed it here. Donald? I keep -- I think Heidi You know, let's assume we're stuck with this stuff, and we can't -- there's not going to be enough time to have anything creative. seeing what the CFA did. I'm I mean, I think they were probably confronted -- they're obviously confronted with the same thing and maybe didn't articulate it the way we do because we dwell on these coins, and they have a lot of other things to do. But, you know, I could see why they went with the reverse, you know -give them the seal. You know, give them the seal. I mean, look, these are not going to ever make it through any committee of FIDEM to get exhibited internationally. Let's just resign ourselves to that. Let's resign ourselves they're not going to be, you know, great, great pieces of art. But let's accept the fact that maybe people in the military will buy them, and there's -- some will sell there, and people like me will buy them because I collect medals by the United States Mint, and there are many other people just like me. Right? So let's just try to produce something, like, acceptable. And maybe what you do is -- it doesn't really matter, I don't have a preference of any of these designs because they're all the same. But what you could do, I think, if we simplify, you know, take away everything extraneous, and on the first -- on the last set, I'd even take away the flags, you know, and just be left with a doughboy or be left with a guy with a gun. And on this one, let's just be left with the ship. And maybe what we could do with the reverse is either one of two things to get some of the words in there, because I think Jeanne's right, you got to have words in there somehow to say what this is. You know, either we use the reverse for that and have a template around the edge that says "Centennial of World War I," United States Navy," similar to the way it is in '01, right, and do that for all of them. So you have a standard reverse template with the words where you can fit -- put in all the words, and then you put the seal, you know, United States Navy seal, in that, and that's your standard reverse for the whole series. And then for the obverse, cut out everything extraneous. Cut out the flags. Cut out the water. You know, just be left with the ship, and pick any ship. It doesn't really matter. ship's a ship. I mean, a ship's a You know, pick any ship, but cut out all the extraneous stuff, and then what I bet you Don could do is make this work artistically -MARY LANNIN: Or Phebe. DONALD SCARINCI: can do it for sure. Or Phebe. You know, Phebe And, you know, and make it artistic, and then when you have the proof coins, you could really do some neat proofing, you know, with the obverse, and really make the image pop. So you have the reduced piece of art, you know, just reduce it to its basic bare. So with these ships, just pick the ship, get rid of the water, you know, just do the ship, and make it pop. In the first one, take either the guy with the gun that Kareem liked or the doughboy one that some people -- other people liked, it doesn't matter which one, just use the image. Get rid of the flag, get rid of everything else, make it pop. So the obverse pops. Artwork pops. Reverse becomes a standard template around the rim, and then the seal of the branch, and that would make people in the military buy it. Right? And give it a shot, depending on how Don does -MARY LANNIN: Or Phebe. DONALD SCARINCI: -- or Phebe, you know, give it a shot to make it interesting artistically. And you've done something kind of conventional and maybe the way you'd market it, you've got the, you know, you've got this cool coin, and you've got these medals that kind of give you a little history. And so you make the history people happy, you make the military people happy, you make collectors like me not terribly unhappy, and you possibly, depending on how it's sculpted, you know, do the trick. Anyway, so I know that was a little more broad, but if we're going to sit here and try to give The Mint some suggestions if we could save this instead of, you know, just rejecting it all, I would -- I think Heidi nailed it. MARY LANNIN: Great. Thank you. KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: Yes, I am. Is Kareem on the phone now? MARY LANNIN: Well, here you are. you talk to us about the Navy? Why don't KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: MARY LANNIN: We are on -- KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: MARY LANNIN: right now. About the Navy? All right. We are on the Navy pairings Have you been able to hear all the rest of us speak about our thoughts on the obverses and reverses? KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: MARY LANNIN: Yes, I have. Good. KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: It's really interesting stuff. So the Navy to me was difficult because I wasn't aware of very much naval participation in World War I, so, you know, I felt kind of behind this, you know, with regard to that. But the one that I liked the best of that one was the very first one. MARY LANNIN: Okay. And did you have a choice on the reverse? KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: Obverse. didn't like any of the reverses. all pretty much monotonous. other one. Actually, I I thought they were You know, it's like every So the only one that had some kind of pop for me was the Number 3 because it's not the usual depiction of the eagle and stuff, so I kind of liked that one. MARY LANNIN: thoughts, Kareem. All right. Thank you for your Michael? MICHAEL MORAN: I will be brief this time. I don't think there's any picks in any of these this time. I agree with Heidi that you can get a mediocre medal by stripping out the inscriptions. And Number 4 on the obverse of the Army was acceptable when you do that. These, no. MARY LANNIN: All right. Tom? THOMAS URAM: Thank you, Madam Chair. I agree with what was said except on eliminating some of the items. I would be more inclined to keep the flag in on all of them because of the significance of the flag, number one, and then the significance of the flag during battle. So of taking everything out, I think to the military, the flag -- with everyone, the flag should be important, so I would leave it in. My choice is really Reverse 1 coupled with Reverse 3. I like -- I think it would give some motion, give some movement, give the people -- you have the ship. I would -- in getting rid of things, I'd get rid of the anchor if you have the anchor on the back, and that would give that a whole right-side, upper right negative space as well. So my choice on it would be to go with that design for the obverse with the emblem. And then the wording, once again, if we pare it down and we do what was being mentioned about having the template on the reverse, you could do the same thing here and widen this whole thing out. Thank you, Madam Chair. MARY LANNIN: Thanks, Tom. HEIDI WASTWEET: Heidi? This collection for the Navy seems to be the lightest of the sets that we looked at today, and there's none of them that really stand out to me. I do like the action in Number 3. we have human elements. I like that Most of the other designs have a human element to it, which I like. Reverse Number 1 has a lot going on. a lot. It says And this could work if we reconfigure it. I like the idea of taking that anchor, and if we took all the words out and reconfigured the composition, this could work. It's still a lot going on for the size of the planchet, but that could work. All of these need a lot of reconfiguring. And Design Number 2, I agree that blast behind, while it looks good in the drawing, is not going to read as well on the coin, and especially the way the lettering is going over the top of that. If you look at some existing coins and not just the drawings -- if you look at the coins where wording is running over the top of the image, it always is very hard to read and it looks confusing. It doesn't pop. It's not clear. So, again, taking off the lettering here would solve a lot of issues. This boat is drawn very nice. drawn very nice. The waves are I think it could be salvaged if some things were moved around, if that blast was a little further away so it didn't look like it was coming off the ship. But none of the designs, as they're presented here work as is, so I'll just leave it at that. MARY LANNIN: Thanks, Heidi. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Jeanne? Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to hear what Dr. Conrad feels about these designs. DENNIS CONRAD: We were shown them beforehand. We liked the action, 1 and 2 in the obverse, but I think -GREG WEINMAN: PAM BORER: Microphone? GREG WEINMAN: DENNIS CONRAD: Okay. Somebody give him a microphone. Somebody give him -Oh. Do I need a microphone? Thank you. We saw these beforehand, and we were -- we liked the action in Obverse 1 and 2. I think we agreed that Number 1 was the -- because we liked the fact that the kite balloons, they played an important role. All these are destroyers that are looking for submarines. That was the major contribution of the United States Navy in World War I. So that's -- and I think on the reverse, we all liked -- we came up with the insignia. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: DENNIS CONRAD: The insignia. We thought that was a very -- but I like Ms. Wastweet's idea of maybe putting a lot of the verbiage on the back. I think it -- that's probably a good idea. If there's any other questions, I can go from there, but I didn't want (inaudible). JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: very much. No. No, thank you Because I think, in my making my decision, that helps because I think Heidi has a very good idea to unify all of these services. And my concern is that we totally understand that this about the centennial of World War I, and if we don't have any text that indicates that. By taking off the text in the obverse in any of one of -- in any one of these branches, then I think we defeat the purpose of the medallic program. So I believe that Number 1, with some work, would be great, and I also liked the air, you know -the blimps. I think that was important. And I think if we go back to what we did with Mark Twain's smoke coming out of his pipe was such a brilliant idea. Maybe we could simplify both the explosion and the smoke to that depiction, and we can have maybe some complicated waves so we have a bit of variation and not have the redundancy of all this texture. It's the same, it's the same, it's the same. And I think it would clean it up a lot. Thank you. HEIDI WASTWEET: Jeanne, can I have you clarify what you meant when you said taking the verbiage off? Do you mean taking it off completely, or do you mean removing it to the back? JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: back. Removing it to the So I think we need to -- I think we need to know that -- what it's about. HEIDI WASTWEET: It is -Do you think having it on the back reduces the impact of the text; is that what you're saying? JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes. If we -- okay, so if we take "2018 Centennial, blah, blah, United States Navy" off, we know that it's going to be the United States Navy because we've got this -- the symbol. But we need to have, I think, "Centennial of World War I," we need to have some kind of information. "Over There" could be dropped down. I love that. love the fact that we have "Over There." I I wish we could have a side where we can say "We are ready now, sir." I think that that was really brilliant. ERIK JANSEN: Yeah. symbols in their existence -- They're both almost JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: ERIK JANSEN: They are. It's -- -- not text. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: very -- for me, very powerful. That's right. It's My father was in the Navy, so this is very important that we, you know, have that energy. Energy in text. You know, we don't have to always have it in a visual symbol, so the text is important. HEIDI WASTWEET: So are you advocating we move some of the text but not all of it to the back? JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: HEIDI WASTWEET: Right. Is that what you're saying? Okay. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: For this. For this one, you know, for the Navy. MARY LANNIN: Erik? ERIK JANSEN: At the risk of either turning texture into a colorization kind of effect, is it worth investigating kind of shades of frosting here as we've done in some of the enhanced coins in the past in order to manage, as she mentioned, the soft touch, recollecting the way we handled the smoke out of Mark Twain's pipe? I'll just put that out as a technical issue here. MARY LANNIN: RON HARRIGAL: work with the frosting. Ron? Okay. We can certainly do some We do have limited capabilities of doing a lot. ERIK JANSEN: RON HARRIGAL: possible. Yeah. Two levels is definitely Possibly three depending on how many layers we're working with. ERIK JANSEN: Donald, how does that fit in in the world of medallics to have degrees of frosting? DONALD SCARINCI: ERIK JANSEN: You know, it's -- So are -- it's not an oxymoron or out of bounds or just plain strange? DONALD SCARINCI: design. It works. Depends on the If it enhances the design, sure. ERIK JANSEN: Just an idea to put out there, because I'm just so afraid of frosty blobs. They don't carry energy, in the all-around together, visually. MARY LANNIN: Okay. I like the idea of the uniform reverse, however we decide to have it. Whether we need to have "World War I Centennial" on the front of everything or if it will work on the back, I prefer the reverse with the Navy Number 3 with the symbol, because I think that anybody that was in the Navy is going to want to see that. In light of what Donald was saying by reducing everything to its sort of bare essentials, I actually prefer Obverse Number 2. I think that the ship is more dynamic, and I'm trying to figure out what -- how much can be taken away from that to get just sort of the ship essence and get it to be more medallic. And those are my thoughts on the Navy art. April, should we move to the Air Service? APRIL STAFFORD: Absolutely. And lest I forget, let me let you know that we do have a representative from the Air Force History Program, a historian, Mr. John Smith, with us. much for being with us. Thank you very So he's available for any questions. We'll start with the obverses. Obverse 1 features a SPAD XIII attacking the enemy with machine guns blazing. An allegorical bald eagle emerges from the clouds as master of the skies. Obverse 2 shows an aviator with a winged propeller inspired by an Air Service insignia honoring American Expeditionary Forces Air Combat Units. The compass represents their power and precision in all directions. Obverse 3 features an Air Service pilot with a heraldic winged shield inspired by the military aviator insignia. Laurel branches represent victory and honor. Obverse 4 depicts two American pilots in a dogfight against the enemy over the European countryside. The World War I Air Service insignia is included at the bottom of the design. Obverse 5 shows a World War I pilot with the silhouette of three SPAD XIII airplanes in the background. Obverse 6 features a World War I aviator. Obverse 7 represents a World War I fighter Ace. The A stands for Ace and is formed with the prop of a plane and aviator wings from the military aviator insignia. Five stars represent the five combat kills that qualify an aviator as a fighter ace. Obverse 8 depicts a trio of American pilots heading into action. As for the Air Service Reverses. Reverse 1 depicts a dedicated team of pilots, commanding officers, mechanics and ground crew posing in front of a SPAD XIII. An allegorical bald eagle stands ready in the background. Reverse 2 depicts a bald eagle holding an oak leave in its beak, representing the courage and strength of American air defense. The SPAD XIII honors the outstanding mobility of the squadrons in air combat, while the five stars represent aerial victories of World War I fighter aces. Reverse 3 symbolizing the power and importance of the air service depicts a winged hang clutching a blade of lightening with an Eagle head on its pummel. The composition also includes a SPAD XIII, five stars representing fighting aces and laurel branches signifying honor and victory. Reserve 4 features an air service pilot standing near his SPAD XIII. Reserve 5 dramatically portrays a SPAD XIII in a dogfight with two German triplanes over the French countryside. Reserve 6 portrays a SPAD XIII viewed from the top and side. The additional inscription, "SPAD XIII," identifies the aircraft. Reserve 7 features a fighter ace standing next to his plane, leaning on the wing. And Reserve 8 features the military aviator insignia. And here is the Reverse contact sheet, the Obverse contact sheet and the CFAs recommended pair as an Obverse Reverse 6 and as the Reverse 8. MARY LANNIN: Thank you, April. you like to lead us off? Dennis, would That will get you for sitting at the end of the table. DENNIS CONRAD: Some of these designs are very photographic, men standing in front of airplanes. I don't prefer those; I prefer action scenes for these medals. My original choices before this discussion were I like Obverse 2 because I think it, of these designs, it's one of the most medallic. It uses the winged propeller of the insignia, but it also has a human element. And my preference for the reverse is -- was Number 5 because it's a very active scene of combat in the air. Looking at these again, though, after our conversation today, I feel like we would have to go with something more like Reverse 8, I think it was, the insignia. And in that case, I would recommend an obverse more like Number 4 that shows an aerial dogfight, or possibly 8. So those are my early and current thoughts. MARY LANNIN: Thank you, Dennis. ERIK JANSEN: I'm curious if the Erik? representatives might have comment here as to how they feel about Obverse 7. It looks like a -- is that a recycled design from the Aces? (No audible response) ERIK JANSEN: reaction to that was. Okay. I was curious what your Is that a symbol that's going to score with the buying audience here? JOHN SMITH: ERIK JANSEN: Did you say Obverse 7 or -Obverse 70, the large A constructed with the horizontal propeller. Is that iconic? Is that -- should that carry any weight to us? JOHN SMITH: Well, I will tell you that one did not resonate with us. ERIK JANSEN: That's all I wanted to know. Because it didn't resonate with me either. But if it did resonate I thought the committee should know that. Wow, I want to stripe off -- do a Heidi here and stripe off some lettering and text again. As far as the medallic value here, I'm really tempted to kind of take the goggles and the leather jacket and maybe stripe that down some and use that as an iconic obverse. And then -- so that would be a 5 or a 6 somehow. I'm not sure I'm online with the backdrop of 6, I'm not sure what those lines are radiating from his lower back behind him. that is? MARY LANNIN: Runway. ERIK JANSEN: Is that a runway? Is that what It's not obvious to me. Anyhow, on the reverse, I don't know if it's just my bent, I am really, really drawn to the precision of Reverse 6, because if the pilots emanate anything it's the meeting point of precision and steely-eyedness, if that's even, you know, an adverb -or an adjective. HEIDI WASTWEET: Do you see that as an obverse or reverse? ERIK JANSEN: No, on the reverse. HEIDI WASTWEET: Do you see it as a reverse or? ERIK JANSEN: Again, I don't know the answer to that, because I kind of think of the obverse as being the text-free, big negative space, medallic vehicle we could create here. That could easily go as a, just a really wonderful obverse. Stripped down to just the technical audacity of these design, and that really is just -- it just jumps at me and everything else is a distance runner-up to that. Thank you. MARY LANNIN: Thank you, Erik. to sort of interject something here. And I'd like In maybe the past year or so I've gone to a number of aircraft museums, and when you get people out there looking at old aircraft, they're all about -ERIK JANSEN: Yeah. MARY LANNIN: Reserve Number 6. And -- ERIK JANSEN: It's something about it that just resonates with the flyboys. MARY LANNIN: Exactly. And so if we've got a ship on one, and planes on another, it's kind of -ERIK JANSEN: Yeah, if my machine is performing, then I'm going to make it happen. MARY LANNIN: you. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Okay. Thank Robert? ROBERT HOGE: Thank you, Madam Chairman. I think my favorite design among these is Obverse 4. I like the idea of the dogfight, and this is where we get the term, and this looks like a scatter of planes in the sky going in all different directions. I think it would be better, and stronger, though if the countryside were just dropped out and we just saw the three planes in the air swirling. That, to me, is what the idea of a dogfight is about, not so much looking at the ground when you're going to go when you crash. But I -- as a reserve type, though, I would tend to favor the possibility of Obverse 3 rather than the emblem of the air service during the war, which is conveyed with the Reverse Imagine Number 8, I think this might be more effective. But since the planes would not really show the human element of the pilot, including the face with a modified emblem of the air services in the First World War might be an effective reverse type. MARY LANNIN: Thank you. Kareem, are you with us? KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: MARY LANNIN: Yes, I am. We're up in the air now. What do you think? KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: with the reverse of Number 6. I really was impressed What the gentleman mentioned about the precision and the fact that that's the iconic weapon that we used, the iconic, you know, method that we use to fight our air war, I think is a great reverse. And I like the Obverse Number 1, the (inaudible) and the eagle. It's very much -- it seems to put it all in place, and very effectively. know, it's dramatic and effective in what it's conveying. You MARY LANNIN: for your comments. All right. Thank you so much Michael? MICHAEL MORAN: This was the one set of drawings that I actually liked pretty well, so I have some comments. I liked the idea of the aviator with the silhouette of the airplanes behind him. Although I suspect we're going to go back to Obverse 4 and the Army where the soldier present arms, or whatever, I forget what that position is with rifles (inaudible) service. I am a bit troubled by the reverse of the insignia for the air service, because there wasn't even an Army Air Corps at that point in time. awfully weak. That's But to be consistent with what I think we'll probably end up with, which is the emblems of the various branches -- service branches, that's probably what we're stuck with. As a result, I would use Reverse 6 as the obverse. I think that's unique. I think it will stand out and complement -- or contrast with the -- either way, the dollar coin. I don't think it competes with it at all. It's a good design. catches your eye. It's striking, it And we'll go with the service emblem for the reverse, but I could be convinced on that one. MARY LANNIN: Thank you, Michael. Tom? THOMAS URAM: Thank you, Madam Chair. I would agree with once again taking a reverse and putting it on the obverse, and that is the Reverse 6, as was just mentioned. And then if you did delete some of that and went with the Reverse 8, you could move a lot of that wording into there and it would fill that out real nicely and still give you plenty of negative space. I think it would really be pretty creative, too, on the reverse, too, to have that in combination with that. So I guess when we come down to it, there's no place to make that, but you know how we do that, as far as making a motion later on. MARY LANNIN: Heidi? HEIDI WASTWEET: I too thought that this group had a lot of positive designs. Number 2. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm drawn to Obverse Again, I'm picturing this with the lettering taken off and more negative space there, and that could be really beautiful. I'm also really drawn to Obverse Number 5, the artistic and creative addition of the silhouettes of the planes behind him I think is really attractive and the character itself says a lot in its gesture and its attitude. I also, as the others have said, Reverse Number 6, as an obverse would be nice. Also, Reverse 5, I like the action of this and I really love how the horizon line is slanted so it really gives you a sense of turning in the sky. MARY LANNIN: That's it. Thanks, Heidi. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Jeanne? Well, I think I have -- I agree with my colleagues, Reverse Number 6 is very powerful. I kept going back to that. It was -- you know, really catches your eye and I think it would be a beautiful obverse. We'd eliminate the text and put it on the reverse with Reverse Number 8. I think this is going to be probably our most successful medal of this series. It's very simple. And this is what our coins should be, very simple, because this is going to be very small. So the details, you know, will not be so lost, there won't be so many of them. Thank you. MARY LANNIN: Thank you. The only question -- I, too, liked Reverse Number 6 to be used as the obverse. My only question would be, if you're an airplane junkie, SPAD XIII on it as text? So April, would you like to move to the next, please? APRIL STAFFORD: Yes. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Do you want any comments from the rep? DONALD SCARINCI: MARY LANNIN: That's okay. I don't -- Don? DONALD SCARINCI: -- I've been negative enough today. APRIL STAFFORD: Okay. Moving on to the Marine Corps obverses. Obverse 1 depicts the beginning of the iconic battle of Belleau Wood, as (inaudible) Support Brigade move unprotected through open wheat fields to attack German defensive positions in the woods. Obverse 2 features three Marines crossing a field of wheat, the beginning of the fight at Belleau Wood. Obverse 3 shows the bravery and unwavering determination Marines exhibits in taking over the wheat field to advance to the forest at the battle of Belleau Wood. Obverse 4 portrays a trio of Marines advancing on the enemy, surrounded by the fog of war. Obverses 5, 5A and 5B portray the literal and symbolic first steps of U.S. Marines on to the battlefields of World War I. They charge into the wheat field without cover and advance directly into machine gun first. This is Obverse 5. Version 5A features two additional Marines entering the battle. And Version 5B includes an American flag. Obverse 6 depicts a helmet set behind the Marine Corps emblem. And that concludes the obverses. Moving on to the Reverses. Reverse 1 shows the aftermath of the three month battle, and continues the story from Obverse 1. One Marine stands guard as the other kneels to pay respect and honor to the fallen. The story closes quoting a report to the American Expeditionary Forces, "Woods Now "U.S. Marine Corps Entirely." An eagle, globe and anchor and the additional inscription, "Battle of Belleau Wood" complete the design. Reverse 2 portrays a Marine standing in the devastated woods at the end of the battle, continuing the story that began with Obverse 2. The change from three soldiers on the obverse to only one on the reverse symbolizes the tremendous sacrifices made by these brave Marines. Included inscriptions are, "First to Fight, "Semper Fidelis," and "Woods Now U.S. Marine Corps Entirely." Reverse 3 shows a marine charging into Belleau Wood readying himself to fight hand-to-hand with an unseen enemy. Small blades of wheat in the foreground represent the early advance through the wheat field. The inscription "Battle of Belleau Wood" is at the bottom of the design. Reverse 4 depicts the World War I era eagle, globe and anchor superimposed over a compass. Reverse 5 depicts the end of the battle of the Woods continuing the story in Obverse 5. After running out of ammunition, the Marine overpowers a German machine gun mass with sheer ferocity and relentless courage. The additional inscription, "Semper Fidelis" is across the bottom border. And finally, Reverse 6 features the World War I era version of the eagle, globe and anchor. We have with us today two representatives from the Marine Corps. We have Dr. Breanne Robertson, the historian with the Marine Corps History Division and Annette Amerman, Branch Head and Historian with Historical Inquiries and Research Branch with the Marine Corps History Division. Thank you for being here with us today. I should go on to the CFA's recommendation. They recommended Obverse 1 with Reverse 6. MARY LANNIN: Thank you, April. Dennis, you're up. DENNIS TUCKER: My initial thoughts, in keeping with my formula on over here versus over there, were I preferred Obverse 5B because to my eye, this could be a Marine in the United States in training. And you often see photographs from that era of bayonet charges being in practice in camp before Marines were shipped over. My preference for the reverse, and it was a very strong preference, was for Reverse 5. you want action, here it is. I mean, if That's -- this guy has fought tooth and nail, he's out of bullets, he's out of bayonet, he's using his rifle as a bludgeon, you've got a helmet flying into the foreground, there's a machine gun behind him. So if you want military action, especially the U.S. Marine Corps in World War I, this really captures it. I think the addition of Semper Fidelis might also be appealing to veterans of the Marine Corps, and active service members as well, looking at that audience. If we do end up using an insignia for the reverse, I might recommend this as the obverse. MARY LANNIN: Thank you, Dennis. Erik? ERIK JANSEN: I'm wanting to be mindful to differentiate this coin from what could easily be confused as an Army coin. One of the ways to do that is to adopt either Reverse 4 or Reverse 6. On the obverse perhaps I prefer 6, between the two. I think it is a richer design, less is more. In terms of the alternative sign here, I see a strong preference expressed, by some, on Number 1. However, I think the homogeneity that's going to accrue to that entire wheat foreground is just going to wipe out its effectiveness as symbol of the critical contribution. So I don't think that design is going to work, quite frankly. And I've become rather indifferent. Otherwise I think there's a possibility, if members of the committee are not thrilled about either of these, Reverse 4 or Reverse 6, that Obverse 6 be adopted. I'm not sure the helmet, though is -- I don't know, it kind of feels -- it just doesn't seem to work for me, if you're looking for the anchor and globe symbol. And I'm a little short on the strong recommendation from there. I wish I had more to offer. MARY LANNIN: Thanks for trying, Erik. ROBERT HOGE: Thank you, Madam Chairman. Robert? These are some strong designs. I think that we have a choice of how to combine these various elements of the emblem on the reverse, for instance, is the -- with perhaps a more active obverse. My preference would probably be for Obverse -- actually I think the idea of Reverse 5 as an obverse I think might be my preference, simplifying that a little bit, I mean it's very active. And then as a reverse a Marine Corps emblem, either Reverse 4 or Reverse 6. In this case my preference would probably be -- well, either one of them I think would work. Number 4, I like the idea of the compass with it, because it's kind of, seems to me, to tie the Marine Corps into the Navy, which of course is (inaudible). Thank you. MARY LANNIN: Thank you, Robert. Kareem, are you with us? KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: MARY LANNIN: Okay. KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: Yes, I am. We're up to the Marines. Yes. For the Marines I liked the 5A for the upper, I think -- excuse me, 5B, showing the plane like that, I really thought that worked very well. And I like the idea of the -- for the reverse, Number 4, showing the Marine insignia on the compass, I think that really nails it to me. They could put the "Over There" or some of the other verbiage that they wanted, they could put that right around the perimeter there and I think that would work really well. MARY LANNIN: Thank you so much. DONALD SCARINCI: Donald? If this were a coin I would -MARY LANNIN: You're not on. DONALD SCARINCI: MARY LANNIN: I'm not on? You're not on. DONALD SCARINCI: Hello? Okay. If this were a coin, I mean just so we don't -- I don't want to -my reactions are because these are medals, not coins. If this were a coin, I think reverse 5, you know, would be awesome. You know, if we go with the series, the way we're doing it with the common reverses, 6, you know, goes with it. 6 kind of gets it. I think the artist who did Obverse And in terms of it being medals, as opposed to coins something like Obverse 6, you know, without you know, might have been cool for a medal, if we were doing medals. So anyway, I just didn't want to -- I just -I mean, these designs, there's a lot of nice designs here if they were coins. Right? So I don't want people to -- I don't want the artists to misunderstand where I'm coming from, that these are medals, not coins. MARY LANNIN: MICHAEL MORAN: Thank you. Michael? I personally like Reverse 1 for the obverse, but I think the fonts -- the inscriptions all need to be shrunk entirely. The centerpiece here of the two soldiers I think that's what it should be. I'm puzzled as to what to do with Reverse 4 versus 6. And I certainly would be influenced by the preference of the service group. MARY LANNIN: Thank you. Tom? THOMAS URAM: Thank you, Madam Chair. I agree, I think I've pick reverses for the obverses of all three now. But Reverse 5 as the obverse I think has a lot of -- you know, a lot going on there. And as Mike mentioned, the first one also would be a nice one also, with the silhouettes and so forth. When it comes to the reverse, I lean more towards Reverse 6, simply because of the small pallet for -- if we were to put the wording on Reverse 4, I think that -MARY LANNIN: Too much. THOMAS URAM: -- with the compass there, we're going to -- it's going to be too much, right. I think that it will just -- it's not going to stand out like it stands out with nothing else on there. So I like Reverse 4, but theoretically when we end up having to add the verbiage, we're going to have to stick with Reverse 6. Thank you, Madam Chair. MARY LANNIN: Thank you, Tom. HEIDI WASTWEET: Heidi? For those who don't know, a couple weeks before our meetings all the committee members receive this big, fat binder in our mailbox and I'm probably not alone in my excitement when that arrives in the mail. And I ripped open that box, and I open it up and I turn right to the art to see what I'm going to find. And so when I got this particular package and I opened it up, I was in a hurry to go somewhere, so I flipped through very, very quickly. And the one design that stuck with me, after flipping through very quickly, was Reverse Number 5. That's the one that I remembered. When I thought back to the packet, when I went back to review again, that's the only design that really stuck in my memory. thought, "Wow." I So many of the designs, especially the military designs that we look at really whitewash the horrors of war and idealize and nostalgic imagery that we see, but this tells it like it is. This, I think is a really powerful message of the brutality and the courage of really being there. It drives me nuts that the lettering is going over the leg. I am talking about this until I'm blue in the face, on coins this does not look good. It really reduces what the sculpture has to work with, as far as depth when it -- when you come to the polish and the frost finish of the dye, it all becomes lost, it's hard to read. It really detracts from the design. Artists, please, please, please stop doing this. So this design, I think, would be wonderful, powerful, memorable if we turn that into a medal design as an obverse. I love that. I also want to call out Obverse 2 and Reverse 2 as a storytelling combination. powerful. That's really You have three soldiers on the front and on the back you have one soldier and two bodies, that's a story, that's a wow. series. But it doesn't fit into this If we're going to put the insignias on the back and have a unified series, this doesn't fit. And all the text around it interferes with the story. Am I reading it or am I looking at it? We have plenty of books to read, articles, history, novels. don't need to read our coins. telling a story, visually. We Coins and medals are for And if this design was reduced to just the image, it would tell me more than any lettering you could put on there. But I can't advocate it for this series because it just doesn't fit in the group. too bad. And that's But I wanted to call out kudos to that artist. I also like Obverse 4 for the action, the creativity of the fog of war design. That's creative. 5, 5A and 5B all have a nice feel to them. I don't have a strong preference by the way those, but they're all nice. There are a lot of nice designs I think in this series. I want to talk, for a second, about Obverse 6, for those who are looking at that. I want you to appreciate how flat that is going to be. That's a round, on top of a round, on a really, really shallow coin. And as a sculpture I would be disappointed to see this on my desk because taking up that real estate in the middle of the coin, not only detracts from the depth of this side of the coin, but it also takes away from the depth of the other side of the coin. And we know, we hear from -- when we have our public outreaches, we hear from the collectors, "We want to see more depth. depth?" depth. How come we don't see more Collectors, people looking at it really like This design will take away depth from both sides of the coin, so keep that in mind as you're looking at that. That concludes my comments. MARY LANNIN: Thank you, Heidi. And before I call on Jeanne, I would like to know if Dr. Robertson or Ms. Amerman have any thoughts on the portfolio. DR. ROBERTSON: On behalf of the Marine Corps, our preference is actually for Reverse Number 1 as an obverse. For the Marines this was one of the issues that was raised, I think, with the discussion of the Army, trying to distinguish between the two branches of service during World War I is difficult. Belleau Wood is an iconic battle for the Marines, and so as such it's a good stand-in for the entire service's contributions to World War I. It was a joint effort, but for the Marines this is -- you know, it's a pilgrimage site. It also was a battle where the Marines lost -they had more casualties than they had in their entire service history up to that point. And so we felt that this particular coin was cleaner in design than some of the others. The text could probably be reduced to make the image larger, but it really kind of captured the entire story of the battle, from wheat field to woods, in combination with the text, though, gives victory and the cost of battle together. We like the contemplative tone because as a pilgrimage site Belleau Wood very much has that still today. And there are groups of Marines that go every May, on Memorial Day, to see that site. I'm trying to think of there's something else. I think that covers it. So there is one -- for the reverse we preferred the EGA to pair with that. Whether it's the compass or not the compass, aesthetically the compass is nice, but I think accurately the one without it is more true to what the EGA was and is. I'd say that with one caveat, I'll hand this over to my colleague, Ms. Amerman, to cover that. MARY LANNIN: Thank you. ANNETTE AMERMAN: A few years ago headquarters Marine Corps created the Trademark and Licensing Office and they have become very rabid in protecting the eagle, globe and anchor in every version of it. I don't see this as if we send in a request to say, want to make sure that, you know, we're using all the service emblems for the time period, I don't think that they should have a problem with it, considering -MARY LANNIN: Okay. ANNETTE AMERMAN: -- it's the U.S. Mint. But please be aware that this could be an issue. MARY LANNIN: Thank you. ANNETTE AMERMAN: something to consider. But it certainly is But we really appreciate the artists' designs, it's awesome. Please tell them we really think they're quite talented. MARY LANNIN: Thank you. Well, you're telling them now. Tom? THOMAS URAM: And if we did go with Obverse Number 1, then I think it would obviously delete the insignia, since it would be on the -UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Did you say Number 1? MARY LANNIN: Reverse Number 1. THOMAS URAM: Reverse. Yeah, Reverse Number 1. ANNETTE AMERMAN: Yeah, because it's also (inaudible). THOMAS URAM: Yeah, so you took the redundancy to have plenty of more space without that there. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: THOMAS URAM: And trademark. And trademark. MARY LANNIN: And trademark. Jeanne? THOMAS URAM: Do you have battles on both MARY LANNIN: Jeanne, your comments? sides? JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Sorry. I thank Dr. Robertson for her comments because this was my choice also. I think it was -- it's what we are trying to do with our coins, with our medals, to simplify them. I think having this silhouette of the trees, it's not complicated, it's going to look good when it's frosted. If we eliminate the "Battle of Belleau Wood" and put it on the reverse, and lower the "Woods Now" we'll have a little bit more space, we could have just a little bit more with the illustration. And then of course eliminating the emblem, because it will be on the reverse. I think this is going to be a really very powerful piece and will go with our centennial coin. So this the site my choice for obverse. And reverse, of course would be Reverse Number 6, with the text that we are going to use to unite all of these branches. And I think we do need to put, you know, "The Battle of Belleau Wood" out here on the reverse. I think that's a really important part and I'd like to see it somewhere on this coin, medal. Thank you. MARY LANNIN: I would just like to add that I think we should be using Reverse Number 6 with shrunken in size that's appropriate. I do believe we need to have "The Battle of Belleau Wood," I think that's really incredibly important. And I'm torn between Number 5 and the obverse that -- or the Reverse Number 1 that Jeanne just mentioned, with all of -- everything gone except the two soldiers and the silhouettes of the woods. I think that that would make an absolutely stunning medal. And those are my comments. So April, may I -HEIDI WASTWEET: MARY LANNIN: Can I add? Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't see you. HEIDI WASTWEET: I just want to add one quick comment on Reverse 5, I think that that also does represent the specific battle in the woods because of the story of how they ran out of ammunition, as being very specific to that particular battle. MARY LANNIN: Would you eliminate the machine gun and -- as part -- as extraneous, or would you keep all that in and just take out the lettering? HEIDI WASTWEET: MARY LANNIN: I don't have a preference. Okay. All right. Any other comments on the Marines, knowing that Rhett will be reading this transcript and is probably listening? DR. ROBERTSON: Yeah, we do have a comment. So while hand-to-hand combat was part of the Battle of Belleau Wood, this particular form of bludgeoning I think was -- there are some comments of it, but it was relatively rare. So for it being representative of the battle, I think it is probably an overstatement. Personally, meaning aesthetically looking at this, it just looks like a Hollywood movie poster more so than, you know, something that's World War I related more historical, but that's kind of a personal preference. I think we also felt like the branches resembled sea coral. But, you know, this is getting more into design critique more than concept. So I'll just leave it at that, to say that while accurate, it's not necessarily representative. MARY LANNIN: Thank you, Dr. Robertson. April? APRIL STAFFORD: MARY LANNIN: Yes. Can we move to the Coast Guard? APRIL STAFFORD: Absolutely. We'll start with the obverses. Obverse 1 shows a Coast Guardsman with his Springfield 1903 rifle, looking out across the Atlantic. He's instructed and inspired by liberty pointing the way to destiny and duty toward the theaters of World War I. Liberty holds the Coast Guard emblem as though it were a shield. Obverse 1A depicts a version of Liberty and a Coast Guardsman with the Cutter, Tampa, silhouetted on the horizon. Obverse 2 depicts an officer with a pair of binoculars keeping a close watch on the horizon while the second Coast Guardsman looks on. The Coast Guard Cutter, Tampa, silhouetted in the background, symbolizes the numerous convoy missions that the Coast Guard will be summoned to conduct during the course of the war. Obverses 3 and 3A depict the Coast Guard Cutter, Tampa, escorting two merchant ships as part of a large convoy. The design includes the additional inscription, "Remember the Tampa," as an homage to the later sinking of the Cutter by a German U-boat, 115 men perished making it the single largest wartime loss of life in combat for naval operations. So this is Obverse 3. And version 3A includes a porthole treatment around the edge. Excuse me. And Obverse 4 depicts a lifeboat from the Cutter, Seneca, heading out into heavy seas towards the torpedoed steamship, Wellington. The sailors have sighted men in the water and are attempting a rescue immediately. Moving on to the reverses. Reverse 1 and 1A depict the Coast Guard Cutter, Tampa, which was torpedoed after leaving escort duty. The high and menacing seas indicate the great loss of life. The inscriptions, "Semper Paratus" and "Remember the Tampa" surround the design. This is Reverse 1, while Version 1A includes the Coast Guard emblem and arcs "Semper Paratus" at the bottom. Reverse 2 depicts the Seneca on a convoy mission. Under difference storm conditions, the crew of the Seneca heroically rescued men from the S.S. Wellington, which had been torpedoed by a German U-boat on September 16th, 1918. Reverse 3 depicts the Coast Guard Cutter, Seneca, headed to the rescue of men from the S.S. Wellington, a British steamship torpedoed by a German U-Board. Seneca's rescue crew is navigating a lifeboat towards the Wellington in rough water. Version 3A includes a porthole treatment around the edge. And finally Reverse 4 depicts the World War I era Coast Guard emblem. We do, or we should have with us our historian with the Coast Guard, William Thiesen. Mr. Thiesen, are you on the phone? WILLIAM THIESEN: APRIL STAFFORD: Yes, I am. Thank you so much for joining us. So he will -WILLIAM THIESEN: APRIL STAFFORD: My pleasure. -- be available for questions, if you'd like to. MARY LANNIN: Thiesen. Thank you very much, Mr. Dennis, would you like to begin again? DENNIS TUCKER: Yes, thank you. I will condense my comments to reflect the current direction of our conversation. I recommend the emblem for the reverse and for the obverse, I like Obverse 4. It's active, it has a human element and it has the -- it has ships and boats. So -- MARY LANNIN: What more could you ask? DENNIS TUCKER: -- I think that that would make a good combination, given the direction that we've been taking today. MARY LANNIN: Thank you. Robert? ROBERT HOGE: I think I would suggest obverse 4 and Reverse 4 as well. MARY LANNIN: you have comments? Thank you very much. Yeah? ERIK JANSEN: That was fast. Erik, do MARY LANNIN: Yes, it was. ERIK JANSEN: I'm actually quite fond of the physical layout with the strangled water in Obverse 1 and 1A. I think it's real interesting, if it can be engraved and it doesn't disappear and doesn't just look like a grayed R. And to that point, in 1A, Obverse 1A, the ship's profile on the horizon helps establish that. So I'm intrigued by that. I think I like Obverse 1 better than 1A, for some reason I think her arms are going to get really tired in 1A. And so I kind of am - - was intrigued by that design, just because of the kind of physical layout. What I -- just try to envision the medal, though. Obverse 4 has a really interesting energy to it and if the service was to focus on the rescue piece of this, I think that might have some strong potential here. On the reverses, I'm not that fond of any of the designs and I kind of default to Reverse 4, just to carry the weight of the service. MARY LANNIN: Thanks, Erik. like to say a few words? Herman, would you HERMAN VIOLA: Thank you. My own feeling is that we should remember the Tampa. I was in the Navy myself and I'd like -- if we're going to have a medal it should honor -UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: HERMAN VIOLA: Is your mic on? -- the people who went down with that ship and their relatives. for either 03 -- opt for 3 or 3A. And so I would opt And again with the rest of the group, I think we ought to have the emblem on the reverse. MARY LANNIN: there? Thank you. Kareem, are you We're up to the Coast Guard. KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: Yes, I am. I really agree with everyone on the reverse, that the emblem is great. It's not very well known I think and putting it out there is great. And I like the obverse of 1A, showing that -- the faint shadow of that ship it's kind of poignant and talks about what it was all about for us. So 1A for the obverse and 4 for the reverse. MARY LANNIN: Thank you so very much. KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: MARY LANNIN: Robert? Thank you. APRIL STAFFORD: MARY LANNIN: Madam Chair? I'm sorry? APRIL STAFFORD: I apologize. I did not highlight the CFA's recommended -MARY LANNIN: Okay. APRIL STAFFORD: -- designs. I apologize. Just to ensure that the committee has that information. They recommended Obverse 2 as the obverse and Reverse 4 as the reverse, although because the emblem is featured on the reverse they recommended that the emblem be removed from the obverse and replaced with a compass. Thank you. MARY LANNIN: Thank you. DONALD SCARINCI: Donald? Well, I mean I wouldn't mind seeing Obverse 4 as a coin someday, I mean it would make a nice coin. I could see why the CFA picked Obverse 2 as a coin. That's all. MARY LANNIN: MICHAEL MORAN: Michael? I think you have to get rid of the Marine Corps -MARY LANNIN: on. Yeah, I don't think your mic is MICHAEL MORAN: I think you have to get rid of the Coast Guard symbol on 1 and 1A. do that you hurt the design. I think when you I like the idea of the individuals being portrayed as opposed to the ships. And then that leads me to 2 on the obverse. I like the CFA suggestion of a compass, because then you've got to get rid of the symbol, if you're going to go with the service emblem on the front with Obverse 4, which I am going to do. MARY LANNIN: Thank you. Tom? THOMAS URAM: Thank you, Madam Chair. With respect to Herman, I would -- if you feel strongly about 3, I do like 4, it's too bad they didn't have the other ship, I guess in 4, if that would have been possible. But I could go with 3 or 4, and of course the Reverse of 4, but I think either would make a great medal. But I'd pretty lean towards 4 a little bit more because of the movement and the motion that's created. Thank you, Madam Chair. MARY LANNIN: Thank you, Tom. HEIDI WASTWEET: Heidi? Can I ask Design Obverse 4 is that also depicting the Tampa? MARY LANNIN: No, it's Welling -- the Seneca. THOMAS URAM: No. That's why I was hoping it would be, because it doesn't have -- that's what I was looking -MARY LANNIN: The Wellington. THOMAS URAM: Yeah. MARY LANNIN: It's the Wellington. APRIL STAFFORD: Just for clarity, Mr. Uram, for the record, your last remarks were geared towards the reverses, correct? THOMAS URAM: Reverse 4? Yes. Yes. APRIL STAFFORD: Yes? Okay. HEIDI WASTWEET: So Number 4 is the Wellington you say? MARY LANNIN: The -- it's a lifeboat from the Cutter, Seneca, heading out in heavy seas toward the torpedoed Steamship, Wellington. HEIDI WASTWEET: clarification. Thank you for that I do like the design of 4. I appreciate the comments that the Tampa is very important. I don't think that those designs are particularly attractive, unfortunately. I do like Obverse Number 2. there. I like the idea of putting a compass Again, I don't like the way the text runs over the body. And that's it. MARY LANNIN: Thank you. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Chair. Jeanne? Thank you, Madam I'm going to agree with Obverse 2. If we remove the text, maybe keep "Over There," if we move this emblem I think we're going to have a similar -something that's going to go with our centennial coin. And then put this information on the reverse with the emblem for Reverse Number 4. It's kind of -- I think this whole process is a semi redesigning these designs, but I think perhaps we've saved it. MARY LANNIN: Thank you. I agree with Jeanne and the CFA that if we replace the logo with a compass that helps. I also think, on the reverse of Number 4, which I think we all have chosen, that if there's a way to put "Remember the Tampa" in that template, that would commemorate that particular event and be memorable to the Coast Guard. I do want to say something nice about Obverse Number 4, that I really like the action, the waves, the differentiation between how small that lifeboat really is to what they're trying to get at. split between 2 and 4 as obverses. So I'm really And that would be my response. Anybody else have any questions about that? (No audible response) MARY LANNIN: Mr. Thiesen, do you have any comments that you'd like to make on what you've seen? WILLIAM THIESEN: Sure, I can make a few. First of all, we canvassed our own staff and they were split between for Obverse Number 4, which is a really good rendering of what the Coast Guard does best, which is rescues, humanitarian response efforts, even in wartime. As well as 1A, which was another mission of the Coast Guard. You see the trooper there, he has -- he's probably a member of port security or beach patrol, coast patrol. That's something else that the Coast Guard did a lot of during World War I. So those two were favorites for the staff. And then as far as the obverse was concerned, they were kind of split over some of the obverse subjects, particularly because they know the history behind a lot of these scenes. So I'm not sure they were looking at the artistic side so much as they were looking at the historic side. But the emblem also, Number 4 for reverse, was one of the picks as well. I think the hard part is that the Coast Guard merged with the Navy for the first time in its history in World War I, and as a result, a lot of the Coast Guard personnel units basically served hand-in-hand with the Navy. There was a lot of merging and not a lot of distinction between the two. So if you look at these medals, or these different designs, it's important, I think, to see that there is some distinction between -- and it's hard to find, between the uniforms and the missions that they're trying to carry out versus what the Navy examples will be. So I think that Number 4 on the obverse is a pretty good representation showing lifesavers at work. And then the opposite side shows the Coast Guard emblem, and I think a lot of people will be surprised to learn that the Coast Guard actually existed back then and that it also served in wartime as well. So it's probably good for them to see representations -- the symbol of the Coast Guard emblem. MARY LANNIN: comments. That's it. Thank you very much for your Are there any other comments by the committee for anything before we vote? MICHAEL MORAN: Michael? In the Army, Reverse 3 and 8 are basically the same service emblem. Did we talk about that, consolidating them and -- so we don't split our vote? I'd just as soon let the Mint decide whether it's 3 or 8, if that's the choice. I'm not into that kind of nitpicking. MARY LANNIN: Greg? GREG WEINMAN: My feeling is vote for each one as if -- just vote twice. In other words, if you -- if they're fundamentally the same design, if you -HEIDI WASTWEET: GREG WEINMAN: Yeah, but this --- want to give it a three, you would give it a three to both. MICHAEL MORAN: MARY LANNIN: I'll give them -CFA voted for Number 3, just so you know. MICHAEL MORAN: to throw. Yeah, I've got one more thing MARY LANNIN: All right. MICHAEL MORAN: MARY LANNIN: I'm so constructive today. Yes, you are. MICHAEL MORAN: I got that, Mary. I heard the drill. MARY LANNIN: I know. MICHAEL MORAN: We really need a home front and it's glaring now that we've reviewed the five service medals. We need a sixth, and I would say a gold -- for the reverse it ought to be the Gold Star that you displayed in the window. The obverse needs to be something with participation of the women in the United States. And it's not too late. And I think it's a glaring hole that needs to be filled in this ensemble of World War I. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'd support that thought as well. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: MARY LANNIN: I'd second that motion. Would somebody like to make an official -MICHAEL MORAN: GREG WEINMAN: Well, let me make the motion. I was going to can we make a -- can I offer, just in the interest of time and effort, if you wanted to vote now and then make motions and let us tally. MARY LANNIN: Okay. GREG WEINMAN: MARY LANNIN: And make motions after lunch? Thank you. GREG WEINMAN: Good idea. Maybe that -- MICHAEL MORAN: Well, this one's ready to go, Greg. GREG WEINMAN: Go ahead. MICHAEL MORAN: track, it's coming. I mean, the train's on the The headlights are there. I move that we add a sixth medal that considers the contribution of women on the home front. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I think we ought to let Heidi second that. HEIDI WASTWEET: MARY LANNIN: say aye. Thank you. Yes. All in favor of Michael's motion Raise your hands. THE GROUP: MARY LANNIN: Aye. Kareem, do you want to say -- KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: Aye. MARY LANNIN: HS: Thank you. Any votes against? No, we don't need a sixth bad medal. MARY LANNIN: Motion passes, minus one vote. THOMAS URAM: Madam Chair, maybe -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Oh, there may be other ones. HS: For the -- APRIL STAFFORD: We do -- I'm sorry, we do have one of our liaisons who I believe is asking to make a comment. Roger, can you help him with the microphone, please? DENNIS CONRAD: During World War I women were -- for the first time they were included in the Navy, they were called Yeomen (F)s and this is an important moment in women in the service. So that would be, I would suggest, a very good subject for this kind of thing, to show the service and to celebrate women. APRIL STAFFORD: Thank you. MARY LANNIN: Thank you very much. THOMAS URAM: Madam Chair, clarification? MARY LANNIN: Tom, yeah? THOMAS URAM: If we wanted one of the reverses as an obverse, just mark it such? So in other words cross -MARY LANNIN: Yes. THOMAS URAM: Okay. MARY LANNIN: Yes. ANNETTE AMERMAN: Dennis. I was just going to echo It's the first time the women come into the Marine Corps as well and they make a contribution. So I think that's a wonderful idea. WILLIAM THIESEN: And we had Yeoman (F) in the Coast Guard, too. MARY LANNIN: So a great idea. We're all in agreement. GREG WEINMAN: Do you want to clarify for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar how the voting works on this, since is the first time that he's done this? MARY LANNIN: Oh, boy. the only one outlying there. Okay. Kareem, you're What we do is we have a score sheet, which has that been emailed? GREG WEINMAN: MARY LANNIN: He has it. Okay. Yes, he has them. Great. generally do is 3 is your top choice. So what we You can have more than one number 3. APRIL STAFFORD: It's not a Number 3. It's three points. GREG WEINMAN: MARY LANNIN: GREG WEINMAN: MARY LANNIN: GREG WEINMAN: MARY LANNIN: GREG WEINMAN: No, you're getting your -Three points. -- three points. Okay. Sure. Do you want -I can jump in. Let the lawyer do it. You can give zero, one, two or three points to each design. So every -- you can send back a sheet that merely has -- they're all -- if theoretically they're zeroes, it might be only three for one you like here and three you like for one there, or two, three -- any one. Theoretically you should rate every design up here, a zero, one, two or three. There's also a merit circle on the ballot. That even if it's not the design that you necessarily want for the coin, if you just think that the artistic quality of design had merit, check the box and that provides valuable data for The Mint in going back to the artists to let them know that this was something that worked well. And if they're one of our contract artists in EIP, they -- it goes towards retaining them in the program, if you do that. KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: GREG WEINMAN: So that's for -Okay. -- use of those. With that in mind I will also mention if you're able to fill out the sheets and email them back to me, great. If you prefer just to call on the phone and tell us which -- what you support, you're welcome to do that as well. But that is -KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: Okay. I'm going to get the sheets, because I want to be sure so I want to go over them and have something in my hands -GREG WEINMAN: Certainly. KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: GREG WEINMAN: -- so I'll wait and -- And send them to us when you can. KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: -- (inaudible). Yes. Thank you very much. MARY LANNIN: Okay. Thanks, Kareem. And we are going to vote now and then after we're finished voting we're going to break for lunch and we will return here at 1:30. GREG WEINMAN: And so I'll look for the sheets back from you, Kareem, whenever you're -- ideally before we come back into session. KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: GREG WEINMAN: Thanks. Okay. Fine. Thank you. Thank you. KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: All right. (Recess) MARY LANNIN: Okay. Ladies and gentleman, we are about to start our afternoon session of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee. And Greg, do you have the voting? GREG WEINMAN: MARY LANNIN: GREG WEINMAN: I do. You do. I will read off what we have. We'll look, make some printouts. Regrettably we are -- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's scores were not able to -- he was not able to send them in time. He had to go to another engagement, so unfortunately he's not included in this tally, which means there are ten voting members, which means a potential score of 30. MARY LANNIN: A top of 30? Okay. GREG WEINMAN: For each one. So with that in mind, I'll start off with the Army Obverse. The -- 1 was zero; 2 was zero; 3 was five; Obverse 4 was 18, which was the highest scoring one; and then 5 was three; 6 was four points. obverse. That was for the Army So the Army Obverse Number 4 had 18 points. Army Reverse. Reverse 1 had zero; Reverse 2 had five; Reverse 3 had 15, which is the highest scoring one; Reverse 4 had zero; 4A had zero; 5 had one; Reverse 7 had four; and Reverse 8 had 14. Just to clarify for -VANESSA FRANCK: 3 and 8 were the ones that that was -GREG WEINMAN: And what is -- you see the highlighted in 2 is that -VANESSA FRANCK: The highlight is meant to indicate that it was being voted for as an opposite -GREG WEINMAN: Oh, I got it. VANESSA FRANCK: -- of what it was originally presented. GREG WEINMAN: So I see. Right. So not that it scored that many points, but Reverse Number 2 had four points as -- ideally as an obverse. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Was this the Air Force? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: This is the Army. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Army. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Army? GREG WEINMAN: Army. By the way, everyone on the phone, if you could please put your phone on mute, we're having a little bit of background noise. Moving on to Navy. Once again, anyone on the phone, please put your phone on mute. Obverse. Thank you. Navy Obverse 1 had eight points; Obverse 2 had three points; Obverse 3 had four points. And that was it. Navy Reverse. Reverse 1 had three points, as an obverse; Reverse 2 had zero points; and Navy Reverse 3 had 22 points. Moving on to the Air Service. Air Service Number 1 had two points; Number 2 had three points; Number 3 had one point as a reverse; Number 4 had four points; Number 5 had five points; Number 6 had seven points; Obverse 7 had zero points; and Obverse 8 had two points. Neither -- none of them reached your threshold of 15 points. For the Air Service Reverse, 1, 2, 3 and 4 all had zero points; Reverse 5 had six points, as an obverse; Reverse 6 had 15 points as a reverse and -I'm sorry, 15 points as an obverse and three points as a reverse; Reverse Number 7 had zero; and Reverse Number 8 had 18 points. Marine Corps. Marine Corps Obverse 1 had five; 2 had zero; 3 had three points; 4 had two points; 5 had three points; 5A had three points; 5B had five points; and Obverse 6 had one point. Marine Corps Reverse. as an obverse. Reverse 1 had 15 points Reverse 2 and 3 both had zero points; Reverse 4 had four points; and then Reverse 5 had eight points as an obverse; and Reverse 6 had 25 points. Moving on to the Coast Guard. Obverse 1 and 1A had zero; Obverse 2 had nine points; Obverse 3 had five points; 3A had three points; and Obverse 4 had 18 points. For the reverses, Coast Guard Reverse 1 had one point; 1A, 2, 3 and 3A all had zero points; and Coast Guard Reverse 4 had 22 points. MARY LANNIN: DENNIS TUCKER: GREG WEINMAN: DENNIS TUCKER: Thank you. Greg? Yes? Could you run down just giving us -GREG WEINMAN: DENNIS TUCKER: GREG WEINMAN: The highlights? -- the winners, essentially? If you're sticking with your tradition, which is that you require at least 50 percent for a recommendation, then that would be 15 points in this situation, then for the Army Obverse it would be Obverse Number 4 with 18 points. For the Amy Reverse it would be Reverse Number 3 with 15 points, although Reverse 8 was very close with 14 points. For the Navy there was no obverse design that got the requisite amount of points, although Navy 1 got eight points. As soon as Navy Reverse clearly it's Navy Reverse 3 with 22 points. For the Air Service the obverse winner is actually Reverse Number 6 with 18 points. And the reverse would be Reverse Number 8 with 18 points. For the Marine Corps, the winner would be -- for the obverse would actually be a reverse, Number 1 with 15 points. And the reverse would be Reverse Number 6 with 25 points. For the Coast Guard the obverse would be Obverse Number 4 with 18 points and Reverse Number 4 with 22 points. DENNIS TUCKER: So what do we do with the Navy obverse? GREG WEINMAN: That's up to -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: GREG WEINMAN: You do it again. That's up to you. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Greg, I think with the -GREG WEINMAN: For the Navy, what we said for the Navy obverse, the highest score was still Obverse Number 1 with eight points. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: GREG WEINMAN: Is there anything you want me to put on the board? (Off mic comment) ERIK JANSEN: GREG WEINMAN: That's too low. So Greg? Yes. ERIK JANSEN: GREG WEINMAN: ERIK JANSEN: So you had ten members voting? Ten members voting. So it would take 16 to automatically cross? GREG WEINMAN: ERIK JANSEN: GREG WEINMAN: It would be 16, yes. Thank you. To go beyond 50 percent, that's correct. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: So those scores that received only 15 -GREG WEINMAN: You could move by motion if you wanted to. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Can we do it by GREG WEINMAN: You can always move motion? by motion. You can. You can always recommend by motion. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Recommend by motion. And there's no way that we can go back and review this -- we can go back by our pages, I suppose, and review Navy? GREG WEINMAN: I think (inaudible) working to put it back on the board. They are right now. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: GREG WEINMAN: Okay. Thank you. They will be there shortly. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: And Coast Guard? Yes, the Coast Guard -GREG WEINMAN: You did a clear -- you had clear winners in Coast Guard. You had clear recommendations. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: And where do we need to go? GREG WEINMAN: Where would you like them to go? JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Coast Guard, if that's possible. I would like to go to Okay. Thank you. So Coast Guard, if I understood correctly, Obverse 4? GREG WEINMAN: That's correct. Obverse 4 had 18 points. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Okay. Eighteen points. And that was my huge question. Now I think we should go back to Navy and look at Navy again. I would -- we seem to be so close to being able to send back to The Mint a complete set. And with our discussions on Navy 1 received only eight votes but should the committee re-evaluate their thoughts on this, Madam Chair? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You can make a motion. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Okay. I move that we revisit this design and have a revote. MARY LANNIN: This design only or all the reverse -- or all the obverse for Navy? JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Oh, yes. We can do the -- yeah, we can do all of them. MARY LANNIN: All the three. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: There's only three, but this the one that sort of won. probably revisit this. But yes, we should And I don't really want to take a whole lot of time, I think if we can quickly sort out what we had discussed? That this was the image that the liaison was favoring, if they agree, I think we should go back and honor that request. ERIK JANSEN: I would be prone to agree with it, but I'd sure love to strip the periphery text off of it. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Exactly. that's what we were deciding anyway. Because And this is going to be probably a motion made by someone else that all of these have their text stripped from the front and put on the reverse. I think this is pretty much what we were talking about during the meeting earlier. So if the text is -- except for "Over There," I kind of like "Over There," on it, but if all of that is stripped we have a whole lot more space, negative space and it will kind of clean up the smoke and the water there. ERIK JANSEN: Is there potentially a way to minimize the frosting on at least the smoke coming out of the board and potentially the explosion as well? JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I think you have to ask Ron. RON HARRIGAL: I mean, you know, as I said before, we can do two, maybe three levels of frosting. So we could differentiate it so it's not all the same tone. My goal there would be maybe on the water and the smoke plumb and the explosion to have like a lighter frost, or maybe a different frost than the actual vessel. ERIK JANSEN: Yeah, I don't know if it would get cheesy looking if the explosion and the water were different. I'm not quite sure, you guys would have to figure that out. RON HARRIGAL: Yeah. Yeah. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We're not worried about it. RON HARRIGAL: When we get into representing it so that they look like separate elements, when we're going through our trials, we'll -ERIK JANSEN: The energetics -- RON HARRIGAL: ERIK JANSEN: -- address that. -- would be so totally different on the two, right? RON HARRIGAL: Yep. Yeah. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: And I have to ask, April and the staff, is it possible just for us, when we go home, to have these images, you know, the five rubbers and the five obverses? I really think we -- well, I would feel better just to see it all in one group. Would that be possible? not? APRIL STAFFORD: To -- Can we do that, or JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MARY LANNIN: To say -- To say this is the final vote? JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: -- the final votes, can we put the final votes in? APRIL STAFFORD: Yes, I -- JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: APRIL STAFFORD: Is that too hard? -- believe it might take us a little bit to strip out the other files. If you want to keep talking we can -MARY LANNIN: All right. DENNIS TUCKER: Mary, I have a question. Actually this is for Ron. Do you anticipate the medals having a rim around the perimeter? question. end? So Dennis? It's a two-part And if not, how will that plumb of smoke Will it go all the way to the end? RON HARRIGAL: Well, clearly the way it's drawn there, I think it's more of an artistic interpretation. The sculptor/engravers will address that as it -- as we get into that phase. have to be some differentiation. There will You can't have a line around the top half like that without having a -- some sort of separation in height. So they'll have to figure out whether they want to have a higher edge on it or maybe a lower edge with higher artwork. I mean, they'll have a way of differentiating that. DENNIS TUCKER: I think earlier we talked about maybe getting rid of that, the concept of that arch -UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: DENNIS TUCKER: Yes. -- and leaving white space, negative space. RON HARRIGAL: Correct. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: DENNIS TUCKER: That's fine. So if we do, are these medals going to be contained with a rim, like the coin would? RON HARRIGAL: DENNIS TUCKER: RON HARRIGAL: Yes, they will. Okay. Yeah, it's sort of like when we made the Fish and Wildlife medals way back, I forget what year that was, they were made on the commemorative coin planchet. So they'll be coined like a regular coin, they'll have a metal turn on them and a fixed collar. ERIK JANSEN: Is the committee all on board with rim medals here? I don't know, I normally think of rimless medals. DONALD SCARINCI: Well, they're not medals, so it doesn't really matter in this case. ERIK JANSEN: If these coins were medals, how would it be best done. DENNIS TUCKER: They'd be better off in a splash is what you would rather have, a splash edge versus -ERIK JANSEN: Yeah. DENNIS TUCKER: ERIK JANSEN: -- metal. What I just heard is -- DENNIS TUCKER: ERIK JANSEN: Yeah. Because rim is coin. -- different than what a medal should be even if it's a coin. DONALD SCARINCI: by just having a rim. We can pretend it's a medal, And we can pretend it's a medal by -ERIK JANSEN: Seriously. DONALD SCARINCI: -- deleting the edge. Right? ERIK JANSEN: Seriously, Donald, for kind of the taxonomy and, you know, whatever would be -DONALD SCARINCI: Yeah. No edge, no rim. I mean, just trying to make it look a medal, maybe people will be confused and think it is. ERIK JANSEN: I'm confused. No, my point is a serious one to make. MICHAEL MORAN: For continuity I think the dollar coin is going to have a rim. ERIK JANSEN: MICHAEL MORAN: not going there. But it's a coin. I'm not going there. We're But if you want all five or six look -- have some consistency across the package, you put a rim on it. RON HARRIGAL: Erik, may I interject. This will be made the same way as our inch and a half medals, and our inch and five-sixteenth presidential medals. It's in a fixed collar, they have rims, and they're called medals. ERIK JANSEN: Okay. Even though the three inchers are typically rimless? RON HARRIGAL: The three inchers are rimless, but the inch and a half have a rim. ERIK JANSEN: Okay. Thank you. MARY LANNIN: Okay. Heidi has -- would like to make a motion. HEIDI WASTWEET: MARY LANNIN: I'm going to -- Turn on your microphone. HEIDI WASTWEET: I'm going to attempt to try to tackle this in one motion. So we'll see how this works. My motion is that The Mint take, from each set, our highest scoring design, reconfigure them to our recommendation, minimizing the text on the obverse and moving the text to the reverse, with the insignias on the reverse at their discretion, rather than us dictating every detail of each design. That is my motion. MARY LANNIN: Would anyone want -- MICHAEL MORAN: MARY LANNIN: Second. All in favor of Heidi's motion? DONALD SCARINCI: Could you do the motion again? HEIDI WASTWEET: The motion is that The Mint take the highest score design for each set and then reconfigure them to our recommendation, minimizing the text on the obverse, moving text to the reverse, with the insignia at their discretion. DONALD SCARINCI: And eliminating -- how about and eliminating all extraneous -HEIDI WASTWEET: Minimizing extraneous design elements. DONALD SCARINCI: HEIDI WASTWEET: DONALD SCARINCI: At their discretion. At their discretion. Because we're not designing it. HEIDI WASTWEET: So that they feel like more like medals instead of coins, as per our earlier conversations. DONALD SCARINCI: Yes. And I trust all of the artists, who are all excellent sculptures as well, to do a good job on this. MARY LANNIN: Okay. All in favor of Heidi's motion, we have a motion that Jeanne made that we've not voted on, but all in favor of Heidi's motion? THE GROUP: MARY LANNIN: Aye. All opposed? (No audible response) MARY LANNIN: Thank you. Okay. You've made my life so easy. The motion passes. So, we are now - GREG WEINMAN: speak online? Hello? Is someone trying to Is someone on the phone trying to speak? (No audible response) GREG WEINMAN: MARY LANNIN: Never mind. Okay. Thank you very much for getting through a whole lot of art. I appreciate it. Thank you all. All right. We're now going to turn to the next item for the committee, which is the theme and the concept discussion for the Filipino veterans of World War II Congressional Gold Medal. And April will give us a description, and after April does I know that Dennis has something that he would like to say. Okay? APRIL STAFFORD: Wonderful. And just to clarify, we're here today not to consider candidate designs, we're here today to have a concept and theme discussion of design elements and principles that you feel the artists should consider as they begin their design development for this Congressional Gold Medal. Okay. So background on the program. In accordance with public law 114-265, the Filipino Veterans of World War II Congressional Gold Medal Act awards a Congressional Gold Medal collectively to the Filipino veterans of World War I in recognition of their outstanding wartime accomplishments and service to the United States during World War II. Filipinos, Filipino Americans and American soldiers fought loyalty and valiantly in the Pacific theater of World War II. The United States remains forever indebted to the bravery, valor and dedication that the Filipino veterans of World War II displayed. Their commitment and sacrifice demonstrates a highly uncommon and commendable sense of patriotism and honor. The Philippines was ceded to the United States and became one of its colonies under the terms of the Treaty of Paris following the end of the Spanish American War in 1899. On July 26, 1941, President Franklin Roosevelt issued an order to call into service of the United States all of the organized military forces of the government of the Philippines. On July 27, 1941, in accordance with the previous days War Department directive, the United States Army forces in the Far East, or USAFFE, was established. Filipinos who served in the USAFFE ultimately included the Philippine Scouts, the Philippine Commonwealth Army, including the Philippine Constabulary, New Philippine Scouts and later recognized guerilla units that were formed after the fall of Bataan and Corregidor. Nearly 24 hours after Pearl Harbor was attacked, on December 8, 1941, Japanese forces attacked the Philippines. In April, 1942 the Japanese overran the Bataan Peninsula. In the infamous Bataan Death March, the Japanese forced the captured troops to march over 70 miles to POW camps, in a week, without adequate water, food, or medicine. An estimated 6,000 to 10,000 Filipinos and some 700 members of the U.S. Armed Forces perished. After the fall of Bataan Filipino and American soldiers who were able to escape captivity formed guerilla units across the Philippines. They were poorly supplied and equipped, yet still succeeded in their mission to collect intelligence, sabotage and ambush Japanese troops, conduct raids, and steal weapons and supplies. Additional soldiers joined the war effort in the United States after the Selective Training and Service Amendments Act allowed Filipinos in the United States to enlist in the United States Armed Forces. These soldiers would serve in the first Filipino Infantry Regiment, the second Filipino Infantry Battalion, Separate or the First Reconnaissance Battalion. Elements of the First Filipino Infantry Regiment were attached to the U.S. 6th Army Alamo Scouts, a reconnaissance group, that traveled behind enemy lines to attack a POW camp and free allied prisoners of war. Later in 1945, the 441st Counter- Intelligence Unit of USAFFE and Filipino Guerillas led the way in the liberation of the Santo Tomas POW camp. A few months later the Japanese would surrender, in August 1945. During the Philippine campaigns, from July 1941 to December 1946, over 260,000 Filipino, Filipino American and Americans served. These efforts resulted in a heavy loss of life of military personnel, with an estimated 57,000 deaths. Because Filipinos who served in the Commonwealth Army of the Philippines were originally considered part of the allied struggle, the military order issued by Roosevelt, on July 26, 1941, stated that Filipinos who served in the Commonwealth Army of the Philippines were entitled to full veteran's benefits. The guarantee to pay back the service of paying back the Filipinos through veteran's benefits was reversed by the Rescission Acts of 1946, which concluded that the wartime service of the Commonwealth Army of the Philippines, and the new Philippine Scouts was not considered active and therefore did not qualify for benefits. Through discussions with our liaison, we've identified the following potential design elements for consideration on the Congressional Gold Medal. First, we offer for consideration contrasting themes to represent the spectrum of Filipino veterans' experiences in World War II. For example, the juxtaposition between Filipino veterans' unimaginable sacrifice and their key strategic victories. Examples of this might include the Bataan Death March, contrasted with the liberation of POWs from Santo Tomas and Cabanatuan. Prison ships holding Filipino veterans, contrasted with the USAFFE's liberation of the Philippines. Another contrasting theme might represent the variety of service provided by the Filipino veterans, such as guerilla warfare and strategic and counterintelligence work. Lastly, there's an opportunity to contrast the Filipino veterans' honorable military service with the revocation of their rights and benefits as veterans. Example of this might include a reference to -- in the design of the medal to Military Order 81 which established the USAFFE and the Rescission Acts of 1946, which revoked the promised benefits to veterans. The inclusion of the recommended inscription, "Act of Congress 2016" would have the added benefit of providing the full prospective of the Filipino veterans' story. Filipino veterans served in numerous units of the USAFFE as previously indicated. To depict this breadth of service, the liaison recommends that the design include references to the following four key campaigns. The Philippine Islands or the Fall of Bataan and Corregidor, Leyte, Luzon and the Southern Philippines. Use of the World War II Philippine and American flags would also be an inclusive way to represent the units. Inscriptions for consideration might include: "Act of Congress 2016;" the year "1941," which is when there was the mobilization of Filipino veterans in the U.S. Armed Forces; "1945," the year of liberation of the Philippines; "1946" the year of the Rescission Acts; "Duty to Country;" "United States Army Forces in the Far East;" and "Heroic Philippine Veterans Who Sacrificed So Much," a quote from President Truman referencing the obligation of the United States to Filipino veterans. I'd like to extend a hearty welcome to our official liaison for this medal, Major General Tony Taguba. Would you like to say a few words? (Applause) MAJOR GENERAL TAGUBA: Welcome back, everybody, to sunny Washington, D.C. It could have been worse, it could have been last week. But thank you very much, April, for that introduction. I'm a son of a World War II veteran. father was a prisoner of war. My He was a Philippine Scout and later became a Guerilla fighter, up until 1946. My mother, at 16 years old, served her time in a prisoner of war camp, at Santo Tomas and she still remembers, to this day, the unit that liberated them which is the First Cavalry Division. All she mentioned was a patch that had a horse head on it, which is, as we know today, the First Cavalry Division. What we wanted -- before I go on, let me introduce members of our executive committee and my partners here, to you, the committee members. First we have Erick Soriano, my general counsel, who keeps us straight most of the time. We have Marie Blanco, the former chief of staff to Senator Inouye who was our champion for the Filipino veterans that actually got the bill passed back in 19 -- I'm sorry, 2009 that took $200 million that was settlement on the wartime service that was never paid back in 1945. We have John Melegrito, my executive secretary, (inaudible) you might say. during World War II. And his father also served And we have Curt Shimizu (ph) who is the legislative staffer for Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, our lead sponsor in the House of Representatives. Before we go on with the questions and answers, of course, I'd like to show you, at least on behalf of the U.S. Mint, a six minute version of the -of what we're trying to project to you, a culmination, you might say, in a six minute film, of 75 years, it's long overdue, in recognition of our Filipino veterans of World War II. I also want to add that the bill made eligible all the American soldiers who fought alongside. Because as you all know, the Filipino units, to include the Scouts and the Guerillas were led by United States Army officers. And we also have members of the U.S. Navy and the Marine Corps who were also serve with the units, were captured at Bataan and serve as prisoners of war or the hell ships. And just to add, my teammates and I just got back from White Sands Military Range where they were in the action, actually it was a march and also a marathon that commemorated 28 years of the Bataan Death March memorial marathon. For those of you who've never been to White Sands, I invite you to come next year, it's a terrible piece of terrain, you might say, 26 miles is a long way in the dust but we all survive. And I think part of that was our inspiration to honor those who served in the Philippines during World War II. So without further ado, your turn. (Video played) MARY LANNIN: Thank you very much. Dennis, you would like to read something into the record. DENNIS TUCKER: Yes, thank you. And thank you, General Taguba, and your colleagues, for fighting this fight. Half of my family is Filipino, and this is a very emotional and important subject to my family and to many others. I'm going to read into the record a letter from esteemed mother-in-law, Dr. Erlinda Rojas Santos, daughter of Major Teofilo Rojas, Sr., U.S. Army Forces in the Far East. He was a doctor before the war and when President Roosevelt made the California, he joined the American Forces in the Far East. She writes: "As the sole survivor the immediate family of Major Teofilo Rino Rojas, I wish to express our gratitude to the CCAC and the United States Mint for your important participation towards the design of the long-deserved Congressional Gold Medical of recognition for the Filipino veterans of World War II, it is a bittersweet victory to finally anticipate this gesture of respect and honor for those who served and died, after waiting almost 75 years for the approval of the United States Congress. "My late mother, Rosario, brother of Telofilo, Jr. and I suffered also the rigors and dangers of the war, and the painful memories are still carried in my mind. My sister, Vincenta, was born in 1945 in a hut, in the marshes, far from the edges of the Maguindanao River in the Province of Cotabato in Mindanao, the southernmost island of the Philippines, as we fled farther and farther way from the pursuing Japanese armies that patrolled even in the dead of night. "Daddy was imprisoned in a concentration camp in Malaybaly, Bukidnon, a mountainous province in central Mindanao, far from us. After the liberation our Dad revered to civilian life from his military service as he requested to return to his private clinical practice as a dental surgeon. "My younger brother, Cornelio, was born in 1950. Sadly, all of my family members are now gone and I am alone to savor a tinge of hope for a long-awaited glory for my father who went through immeasurable danger. The wartime distress and injury that lingered on and through the rest of his life, necessitated his trips for medical exams and hospitalization at the Veterans' Memorial Medical Center in Quezon City, Luzon where he died in 1988. "His casket was draped with the American flag. His veteran buddies had often convened in meetings at our home to plan measures to address their needs to the United States government. Over the years their lights were also dimmed in death or terminal illness. "How proudly my dad would have stood, in his military stance, were he around to receive, personally, this medal. Surely a tear would be shed, a moment to crown his service as a member of the Medical Corps of the United States Army in the Far East. A "As an orphan and a widow, 81 years plus in age come that awarding ceremony, I shall be a forlorn figure, hopefully still able to receive, on his behalf, the bronze duplicate of the coveted Congressional Gold Medal in my trembling hands, with prayerful thanks. Signed, Dr. Erlinda Rojas Santos, daughter of Major Teofilo Rino Rojas." Thank you. (Applause) MARY LANNIN: Okay. Wow, Dennis. Let us begin. Thank you. I would imagine that, Dennis, you'd like to just sort of sit for a second, as would I. So, Erik, would you mind talking? ERIK JANSEN: I think the -- is this on? I think the most important thing to reiterate here, since we've gone through five medals this morning, that we're not doing a coin here, we're doing a medal here. And so we need to think about negative space, minimize text and go with symbols that evoke the pretty clear situation. And I'm at a loss for the symbols to even recommend here. I will say, at the very end of the video I noticed up in the upper left-hand corner was an image of a profile, a two-thirds profile, with symbolic sun behind it, which as I kind of searched my own thoughts for symbols, there was a start there. So I'd encourage an artist who is considering taking up this task to maybe start with that image. And please, and I don't want to be destructive or negative, but please no guns, no soldiers charging a hill, let's not do that on this medal, please. Thank you. MARY LANNIN: Thanks, Erik. Robert, what were your thoughts? ROBERT HOGE: My thoughts go back to when I was a child, really my only awareness of this part the Philippines played in the war was the so-called Bataan Death March. And I didn't really understand what it was, the impact of this terrific loss of lives. I think it captures something of the horror of war and suffering. I think that would be an interesting thing if you might juxtapose that with the somewhat lush, tropical environment of the two. You know, a paradise destroyed by this kind of warfare. MARY LANNIN: HERMAN VIOLA: Okay. Herman? Well, it's certainly a long overdue tribute. MARY LANNIN: Herman, can you turn your microphone on? HERMAN VIOLA: It's certainly a long overdue tribute, and I'm glad to be part of this opportunity and effort. But my own thinking is this -- if symbolism is going to be so significant can't we get the Filipinos themselves to give us some ideas of the symbolism that would be important for their memory and for their honor. I mean, the idea of the flag is certainly significant. And I would like to avoid combat scenes, if possible. But I mean, there's such a richness of the culture, of the people and I think this is an opportunity for great, creative art that is possible. MARY LANNIN: Donald? DONALD SCARINCI: This is a Congressional Gold Medal and (inaudible) you've certainly done a lot of work to get here. And you know, I think my position is always, you know, you're going to work with the Mint staff, they are excellent at this and you should put your trust in confidence in the Mint staff and the Mint artists. And in the end try to reach a consensus amongst yourselves about the medal that you would like. It's your medal. And unlike what we talked about earlier today, you know, where we're producing medals for sale, commercially to the public, this is the (inaudible) because there's a bronze version of it that does go for sale, but it's very much a statement by Congress and by the American people. And so I would encourage you to try to reach consensus, and The Mint staff will help you do that, amongst yourselves, and come here with a design, or two, or three, that you can all get behind. And quite frankly, there's a track record on this committee that if you really feel passionately, and you've all achieved a consensus, you know, we're more likely than not just going to support the decision that you make. This is your medal. And it will take a lot more work head of you than behind you, perhaps, once you do designs, as you hear us talk and argue about designs all the time. That's a very difficult thing, very personal. So but do what you can, come back to us and more than likely, I mean, certainly I intend to vote for whatever your consensus is. MARY LANNIN: MICHAEL MORAN: MARY LANNIN: MICHAEL MORAN: Michael? Ready for me, Mary? Absolutely. Okay. As a Kentuckian, I grew up with a lot of the history of the Bataan Death March. Obviously I didn't even pronounce it right. There was a Kentucky National Guard unit there that took a lot of casualties on that march, but not once, in any of the documentaries that we get on Kentucky educational teacher, and there's one that shows up every six months or so, were the veterans in there. Not once did they talk about the fact that the Filipino population suffered 10,000 casualties. That was news to me today. It's long overdue. But then I -- when you listen to the poignancy of Dennis' testimony in the letter, it brought home to me the fact that as much as this is a but the Filipino people, it's also about the individuals. each of them on an individual basis. It impacted That medal needs to capture, not that collective spirit, but that individual spirit. It's easy to do that on a medal, rather than on a bunch of marching soldiers going forward or charging the hill. And yet it's not. And that's where this medal will really touch the souls of the people for whom it's intended. MARY LANNIN: Tom? THOMAS URAM: Thank you, Madam Chairman. First of all, congratulations also on your journey in coming here to hopefully developing something that's going to be forever. And as was mentioned, it is your medal, it is your honor. As I look at it from our perspective here, and maybe as the designers might look at it, I think a lot of the contrast to tell the story, how are you going to tell the story on three inches on an obverse and reverse? How are you going to tell that story? symbols are you going to use? But I think was What mentioned earlier, some of the contrasts and I think that that could be very telling. Also, you mentioned about the patch, the horse head and so forth. So maybe that should be somewhere on one of the -- depicted somewhere to show the freedom and to show that hope that that brought. So good luck on your journey here as it finishes. I'm sure that you will end up with something that you'll be proud of and it will be forever. Thank you, Madam Chairman. MARY LANNIN: Heidi? HEIDI WASTWEET: This is a difficult one. In reading about the recommendations and suggestions here, there's everything but the kitchen sink. to go on this medal. There's a lot And it says here that recommended references to the four key campaigns. Keep in mind, that's a lot to ask of the artists, and it's -- the danger here is that we end up with more storyboard, illustrative action shots. And when you try to represent one campaign, you're denying the others. when you try to be too specific, you're denying the whole. And And so the way to tackle that, artistically, is with symbolism. So keep your mind open to things that you might not expect to see to represent big ideas with simple images. I like the concept of portraying the sacrifice on one side, with the victory on the other side; I think that's a good idea. There's a lot of inscription suggestions here. Again, too much lettering can really detract from the medal. And the more -- the harder you think about what should it say, the more you're excluding what it doesn't say. So the less you say is actually saying more, if you can follow me on that. The only thing that I would not like to see on this, and I'm torn about this, is the revocation of their rights. That is such an important and heartbreaking fact around this, that I don't think that this is the surface to say that on. I think the Congressional Gold Medal should honor their -- what they did and not what they were denied. And while that's an important story to tell alongside the medal, I don't think I want to see it on the medal. I want to focus the medal on the positive, on the sacrifice and the victories, not on the denial. I think that is better spoken along -- in conjunction with instead of on the surface. And that's my opinion. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Chair. Thank you, Madam I think that this is a very hugely emotional gold medal, well-deserving and something that we as a country, as artists and historians need to address with amazing care. And yes, we need some symbolism here but also I'm looking at the inscriptions and considerations for consideration and I'm thinking that there's been a lot of talk today about text being one side. I am very much in favor of having text on medals. Sometimes I think the text can beat the art. And a lot of us don't look at that. do. As an artist, I I often use the text as part of the design. I'm going to throw this to the artists. the box, please. So Think outside Think about the fact that we have a huge responsibility to portray all that's happened here in all the 75 years that nothing happened. So I believe that maybe we can think about text in a different way that the text can become symbolic. I was at the Native American Museum yesterday. I'm very involved with spirals. I think it's an important part of art; spirals are representing life and Mother Earth. I'm thinking it would be so incredible to have some kind of symbolism where you have the lettering in a spiral, or the lettering in some kind of form. Lettering and text does not have to read, you know, century gothic. Please get over being literal about the text and get somewhere where you can incorporate the text as part of some design quality or symbolism. That's pretty much all I have to say. think far out of the box this time. MARY LANNIN: Just Thank you. Kareem's not on the phone? Kareem, are you there? (No audible response) MARY LANNIN: He's not there. I was looking at the logo that was on the film and it's a very interesting logo of the sun, which brings life. you say that, Erik? Yes. Did So I would like to see somehow the sun in there. As I said this morning, we had a (inaudible) things related to war, but as Robert said, the Bataan Death March was the only phrase that I remember from growing up. And perhaps a single prisoner marching along the road towards a sun would be one possibility. The other thing I have is actually more technical. April, when you were reading you kept referring to Act of Congress 2016. Is it 2015 or '16? Because I've got the legislation here and it's Congressional Gold Medal -- it's actually '15? BETTY BIRDSONG: Yeah, it's actually 2016. the Congress is when it was actually became law. At So it became a law in 2016. MARY LANNIN: So it would be '16, not '15? BETTY BIRDSONG: MARY LANNIN: all I have to say. Yes. Okay. Thank you. And that's But thank you so much. DENNIS TUCKER: Mary? MARY LANNIN: Any other questions? THOMAS URAM: Yeah, just a comment. DENNIS TUCKER: THOMAS URAM: Tom? Oh, okay. Sorry. If you have a chance, on your way out, stop downstairs at the gift shop there, and there's a whole case of medals down there. There's medals from congressional medal to the code talkers, to the 9/11 medals. Take them out, feel them, see what that planchet looks like, if you haven't already done so. Put it in your hand, envision what you think would represent you with that medal in your hand. See how you feel about that. And then -- particularly the 9/11 medal, it's a very interesting medal because there aren't many words on those. But take them out of the case, make sure they hand them to you, so you can grasp and feel them and then look at them and envision what you feel could be possible for you. MARY LANNIN: DENNIS TUCKER: Dennis? I agree with what Heidi said about not focusing so much on rescission acts and what was denied to these veterans, or at least not referring explicitly to that denial. And interesting approach might be to show a young soldier, in 1941, who's been promised, by the American government, a fast track to citizenship, healthcare and other benefits that are given to United States veterans. And then either juxtapose, or on the other side of the medal, show that same soldier again when he passed away in 1988 -- before he passed away or today, if he's still living, an elderly man, who is finally seeing the justice that this act and this Congressional Gold Medal brings. That might be a way to gently acknowledge the injustice but also focus on finally, nearly 75 years later, the justice that's been brought. That's one concept (inaudible). MARY LANNIN: Does anyone have any other comments? GENERAL MAJOR TAGUBA: I would just add, the logo that you saw was actually designed by a young man in a contest that symbolized what this history was all about, to show the sun, which is symbolic of (inaudible) Philippines (inaudible). And also the stars and stripes and stars and them looking up, that's a veteran looking up, looking for some form of honor, some form of recognition, some form of thanks. And this pretty -- I took some notes here. And when we went through this -- when we started this project two years ago, and there's much more history behind what you just did, in the Philippines. Because when you take away somebody's nationality, when an act of Congress passed a bill that says you don't qualify, when they were not -- that money that was supposed to have been given to them, $200 million, was never disbursed by Congress, my father was never paid. I'm just going to use him as an example. He was paid $60 which was the amount of money that he was supposed to have been paid in April of 1942, but he was not paid until 1949. record. $60." I have a copy of his entire But then a little sheet it says, "Payment On the other side of that was a little box that says, "U.S. Settlement," in other words what was owed back to the government, $35.40. That's the amount of money he received after four years of combat, as a prisoner of war. And my mother never got anything as a nurse's aide in Santo Tomas. Then when you take that away in 1990, the U.S. Government opened up the Naturalization Act, Immigration Act of 1990, that allowed them to apply for U.S. citizenship, some 25,000 were granted the U.S. citizenship, but just for that one veteran. In 1992 the government took away their ability to bring their families over. That's 1992. In 2015 President Obama signed an executive order that says let's do a parole program to allow their family members to petition and come to the United States, on a five year probationary period. So all these years, that indignation that they received way back when, and even today, none of them would want to come to the United States, their kids, anyway, because their parents are 90 years old and their parents are supposed to provide for them, over a five year period, for a livelihood. are in their 50's and 60's. Well, their kids But then they have to pay $500, individually, to petition the government to allow them to come. So this is what we call time long overdue. We think there's between 15 to 18,000 of them that are still alive today, half in the Philippines and the other half here. And we've started a registry of where are all these people today, because we can't just go to the VA and say, give me a list, or we've got some list from the Philippine government. So to this day we're collecting information on the living veterans and also the surviving family member, like Dr. Erlinda Castro (sic) Rojas, in order to provide that list to the U.S. Mint, in order to purchase the bronze replicas. So it is a grueling project, you might say. And the easiest part of this was to have Congress to pass it -MARY LANNIN: I haven't heard that before. MAJOR GENERAL TAGUBA: -- two years later, November 30, 2016 and December 14th President Obama signed it. And President Obama was the one that signs the bill and basically said, we will grant you your one time lump sum payment of 15,000 if you're a Philippine based veteran, and 9,000 if you are -- I'm sorry, a United States resident and 9,000 if you reside in the Philippines. That's -- and the law basically said, in the Philippine Veterans' Equity Compensation Bill, this is your last benefit. settlement. It was not a benefit, it was a It is back pay. Back pay. But we have Veterans Affairs today that think that they have already received their benefit. Eighteen thousand were granted that 15 and 9,000; 42,000 applied, 24,000 was granted, except 4,500 today are still appealing. They're still appealing for that 15,000 and that 9,000. Isn't that incredible? So part of this whole image, and I'm taking note, is how do you project loyalty to country? How do you project fidelity when you're called upon to duty? I'm going to serve my country, just take care of me, as we say today. But it's hard to tell Mr. Almeida (ph), who is 100 years old today, his appeal has been denied twice already, even though he provided records of his military service in the Philippine Commonwealth Army, after six years of research at the National Archives at College Park, and he's still being denied that benefit. So this whole idea of a Congressional Gold Medal had nothing to do with benefits, had nothing to do with immigration, it's just a simple recognition from the United States of America to say thank you. So we took notes, we -- on how do you -- we were -- we want to have it, less text, more simple. We don't want to just put Rescission Act on there because as Heidi said, we want to portray victory, we want to portray loyalty to country, we want to portray duty to country because that's exactly what they did. So it's highly emotional, but we can't make up the story, Bataan or Corregidor. So we have all these notes taken, so hopefully -- hope is not a method, next time you see this we'll have something symbolic and what we discussed it will portray to you. Incidentally, this is the same thing when I have to go before this committee, I'm sure none of you were there in 2011, when we had the Japanese American (inaudible) soldiers design their medal. So that was also less text. There are eight different units that served under this campaign. And we want to -- we don't want to provide the patches, for example, because it will just dilute the significance of that (inaudible). But we will come up with something. There are three Medals of Honor that was presented after the fall of Bataan. There were no Medals of Honor presented after the Guerilla campaign. Of the tree Gold Medals of Honor, two were American soldiers and one single Filipino soldier. Sergeant Calugas, Jose Calugas, the one that, as a cook -- he was a cook for a field artillery regiment who shot down several Japanese aircraft. And we may consider him saluting the flag with the Philippine flag and American flag behind him, when he was presented as Medal of Honor. One. The Japanese and American soldiers received 21 I believe it was. So we always said that history -- American history has never been kind to them. But I think we can all agree that they would truly desire the Congressional Gold Medal to be presented to Dennis' mother-in-law, before she passes away. MARY LANNIN: Thank you. So, thank you. Wow. Okay. The final -MAJOR GENERAL TAGUBA: Just pass the Kleenex anymore? MARY LANNIN: Oh, my gosh. Okay. All right. Thank you very much for coming. MAJOR GENERAL TAGUBA: Thank you for inviting us. MARY LANNIN: again with great art. We look forward to seeing you How's that? MAJOR GENERAL TAGUBA: promise you they'll be -- We will. And we MARY LANNIN: Thank you for traveling. Thank you for actually traveling a second time, probably, to get here for the meeting. Okay. So now we've got the final item for the American Eagle Palladium Bullion Coin. And April is going to talk about it. APRIL STAFFORD: Thank you, Madam Chair. On December 4, 2015 President Barak Obama signed into law the Fixing America's Surface Transportation Act, also known as Public Law 114-94. The act amended Palladium Coin legislation found at 31 USC 512, Section 5, requiring the Secretary of the Treasury to mint and issue bullion coins weighing one troy ounce and containing .9995 fine palladium, with a face value of $25. When minted and issued, the palladium coins will become part of the United States current American Eagle product family of precious metals which already includes gold, silver and platinum. Okay. design. So we will call up the mock ups of the The obverse -- some background on the obverse. The legislation requires the obverse design to bear a high relief likeness of the winged liberty obverse on the mercury dime which was created by famed American sculptor and medallic artist, Adolph A. Weinman in 1916. The obverse design for the palladium bullion coin also includes the inscriptions, "Liberty," "In God We Trust," Weinman's initials and "2017." Okay. The reverse, the legislation additional specifies the reverse design of the palladium coin to bear a high relief version of the 1907 American Institute of Architects, or AIA, Gold Medal reverse design. This work, featuring an eagle, was also created by Adolph A. Weinman and commissioned by the AIA specifically for their gold medal award. The gold medal is AIA's highest honor and it's given annual to recognize the work of individuals who have had a lasting influence on architecture. The AIA allowed The Mint access to its assets related to the 1907 gold medal, including the original 14 inch diameter reverse plaster and a two and a quarter inch gold medal struck in 1907. The Mint digitally scanned the plaster and photographed the gold medal to aide in the design development of the palladium coin. The reverse design also includes the inscriptions, "United States of America," "Twenty-five Dollars, "E Pluribus Unum," and the weight and fineness of the coin. Madam Chair? MARY LANNIN: Thank you so much. We were fortunate to have Ron, at lunch, pass a test stripe around. He says he has to take it back with him, though. And I thought it was absolutely stunning. We can talk about it, I'd love to talk about it. Dennis, would you like to start? DENNIS SCARINCI: MARY LANNIN: Yeah. DENNIS SCARINCI: that. It's a remarkable design. I think we all agree on A remarkable set of designs, I should say. (Inaudible) mercury dime, the winged liberty design that Weinman created. I understand, Ron, that there are certain liberties that have been taken in your translation of the originals? RON HARRIGAL: Yeah. DENNIS SCARINCI: very impressive. But overall I think it's MARY LANNIN: Erik? ERIK JANSEN: I know there are some other comments that I'll defer to, in terms of some of the impact to those liberties that have been taken on the design. The one thing that I'm going to point out is although it's not directly related, the walking liberty half certainly was inspired by this design, I think. And I would encourage The Mint to incorporate the W Mint mark where that Mint Mark appears on the half dollar. I think the collecting community will unnecessarily take us out back and school us if we get it wrong when we issues this thing with a Mint mark anywhere else. Thank you. MARY LANNIN: Thanks, Erik. Robert? ROBERT HOGE: I think this is a very beautiful design, I'm sure it will be popular and initiate a lot of interest in palladium, probably, as a potential bullion item. I don't know how much interest there really is in this in general in this country. And since is not necessarily, according to latest information on Congress, I might make a proposition, let's just hope that these beautiful designs can have some unexpected success. MARY LANNIN: Excuse me, how many can we make? As many as we would like, because it's bullion, right? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Is there a limit on this in the legislation? APRIL STAFFORD: I'm going to turn it over to Jason Lowry who is the product manager for this bullion coin to respond. JASON LOWRY: Sure. So the legislation allows us to mint to demand, depending on what that demand may be. And so it would be up to the Secretary's discretion on what that would be. MARY LANNIN: Okay. ERIK JANSEN: One finish, two finishes? JASON LOWRY: For the bullion version, the way the legislation is written, it is one finish. ERIK JANSEN: Bullion -- JASON LOWRY: Bullion and -- yeah, bullion is just bullion. ERIK JANSEN: -- wire brush finish? JASON LOWRY: Correct. MARY LANNIN: And everywhere but West Point; is that not correct? JASON LOWRY: To produce the bullion version is everywhere but West Point. MARY LANNIN: Okay. HERMAN VIOLA: That's correct. Thank you. Herman? It's beautiful and I'd love to hold it myself. MARY LANNIN: And Donald? DONALD SCARINCI: MARY LANNIN: Two things. First. Your microphone is off. Three things. DONALD SCARINCI: Two things. First whatever Congress does is right and we will execute what they tell us to execute to the best of our ability, thing number one. Thing number two, if this did not come from Congress you know what I'd be saying. I'd be saying the same thing I've said for ten years. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: DONALC SCARINCI: over it. All right? Weinman is dead. Adolph Weinman is dead, get And if this was not mandated by Congress as the design, I would be sitting here on a rant and a tear, and a rave, but whatever Congress does is correct and we will execute what they expect us to execute, to the best of our ability. MARY LANNIN: MICHAEL MORAN: cut me off there. Thank you, Donald. Michael? I'm overall pleased. Donald I'm pleased with The Mint handled the inscriptions and the actual striking of the coin. They've downplayed them on the reverse, so that the central theme of the reverse is the eagle and it does stand out well. When you do the Mint mark, I would encourage you to use a smaller font size, like it used to be when they actually struck the half dollars, and not that big, ugly W. Nobody cares about West Point anyway, really, in the collecting community. And you don't need to put that big Mint mark in any of the things you do. Just thought I'd get that in. MARY LANNIN: Thank you. THOMAS URAM: Thanks, Madam Chair. it's obviously popular. Tom? I think It'd be great also to see in a high relief, if the so-called legislation would allow it. For a collector I think that in high relief -- from the collector's point of view, anything in high relief is good. MARY LANNIN: Heidi? HEIDI WASTWEET: designs, of course. These are indeed beautiful So I'm speaking not to the design, but to the rendition of the design. It's my personal opinion that these have been overly enhanced and a little over sharpened. My eye the site drawn especially to the head of the eagle. I believe Weinman's style was more subtle and soft-handed and the feathers on the eagle's head, to me, it looks very spiky, like a dragon's head, like scales on the top of the head, as well as the neck. I would to see that brought back -- bring back in a bit to be more true to his original style. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I think it's quite wonderful to see these pieces and I compliment the staff on doing what you did. I like the fact that because this is high relief and I think you have to go back into it and bring it out, it is enhancing Weinman's style. I believe we had to do that -- or the staff had to do that. nice job. So thank you. Thank you for a It's beautiful. MARY LANNIN: I would just tell to add my thanks and say that I think it's very nice, Ron. have no problem with the extra enhancement. strikes well, as what you showed us. I I hope it And I look forward to saving other current (inaudible) products to be able to afford to buy this Mint product when it comes out. (Inaudible)? RON HARRIGAL: here? Just a couple quick statements Talk about the Mint mark. This is a bullion product and we don't put Mint marks on the bullion product. The law requires us to make a bullion coin, it does not require us to make a proof coin, however it does allow us to make a proof coin. So that if we do, we will definitely take your comments into consideration when -- if and when we decide to make a proof version of it. And second, with the enhancement, the plaster was what you saw. The artist did have the gold medal with him to work from, so it's a combination of both the plaster and looking at the medal and they came to the conclusion that they needed to do some enhancement there. Unfortunately we don't have the gold medal to show you here, the AIA has the gold medal. But, you know, we tried to stay as true to it as we possibly could. And I appreciate the comments. APRIL STAFFORD: So I need to ask Mr. Moran, so your comment about the -- you're talking about this W here? MARY LANNIN: No. The one that Ron passed around, I think. MICHAEL MORAN: Yes, there was a W on that one that Ron was (inaudible) -APRIL STAFFORD: So, I just wanted to make sure. MICHAEL MORAN: Yeah. But now while I'm -- since we're almost done and we've got a little bit of time, I'll relate a little story to you from the unveiling of the Modern Liberty 100 Dollar Gold Coin back in January. We're standing there and a person whose name will not be revealed, from the Artistic Infusion Program was looking at the reverse. And he said, what a beautiful waste of negative space with that big ass W and the designer initials there. I mean, it's the art that we're talking about. The Mint marks are really incidental, with the exception of San Francisco. And I really think that the artists themselves don't need to see their initials spelled out in such bold letters. think you can do a much smaller one. And as I said, these things need to be buried in the leaves. know what they did. I They I mean, I know, but I'm serious. It didn't used to be that way. ERIK JANSEN: Yeah, I would second those thoughts that classically it certain -- you can look at essentially every design prior to modern times here, within the last couple of decades initials and Mint marks are very, very subtle and put off to the side. And we seem to have lost that sense of discipline. MARY LANNIN: on it. So we talked about having 2017 We talked about the fact that this is bullion, but we could do a proof in 2017, in 2018. When would that happen? APRIL STAFFORD: The legislation allows for it, but the bullion is going to be rolled out first. And I believe all decisions thereafter will be evaluated. MARY LANNIN: Okay. Does anyone have any further comments? MICHAEL MORAN: Let me make one comment on that. MARY LANNIN: Sure. MICHAEL MORAN: April? I think you all should get your hands on a Weinman half dollar, particularly the reverse from Proof 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41 and see how that looks in proof. And I think that will help you make your decision as to whether you want to start a proof or not. MARY LANNIN: Any other further discussions? Any other motions? GREG WEINMAN: Actually we need a motion for you to accept these designs. MARY LANNIN: All those in favor of accepting the designs that we have looked at today? THE GROUP: Aye. MARY LANNIN: Those opposed? (No audible response) MARY LANNIN: GREG WEINMAN: Motion carries. Thank you. MARY LANNIN: Okay. Again, all in favor of adjourning? THE GROUP: MARY LANNIN: Aye. Any nays? (No audible response) MARY LANNIN: p.m. Okay. We are adjourned at 3:03 Thank you all. * * * * * CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, JANEL FOLSOM, the officer before whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby certify that the proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my direction; that said proceedings are a true and accurate record to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. JANEL FOLSOM Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER I, SUSAN E. LAPOOH, do hereby certify that this transcript was prepared from audio to the best of my ability. I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to this action, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. 03/27/2017 DATE SUSAN E. LAPOOH