Full text of Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meetings, Recommendations, and Minutes : Meeting, March 13, 2018 : Transcript

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CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE
PUBLIC MEETING

Tuesday, March 13, 2018
9:28 a.m.

U.S. Mint
801 9th Street, N.W.
Washington, DC

Reported by:

Samuel Honig

20220

2
A P P E A R A N C E S
Advisory Committee Members
Mary Lannin, Committee Chair
Jeanne Stevens-Sollman, Committee Member
Dennis Tucker, Committee Member
Herman Viola, Committee Member (by telephone)
Heidi Wastweet, Committee Member
Robert Hoge, Committee Member
Michael Moran, Committee Member
Donald Scarinci, Committee Member
Erik Jansen, Committee Member
Tom Uram, Committee Member

Mint Staff Members
April Stafford, Mint Staff
Greg Weinman, Mint Staff
Roger Vasquez, Mint Staff
Pam Borer, Mint Staff
Ron Harrigal, Mint Staff
Betty Birdsong, Mint Staff
Vanessa Franck, Mint Staff
Megan Sullivan, Mint Staff (by telephone)

3
Program Liaison
Verna Jones, Executive Director, The American
Legion

Other Participants
Paul Gilkes, Coin World (by telephone)
Mike Unser, Coin News (by telephone)
Stephen Walker (by telephone)
Brandon Jamal (by telephone)
Joe Menna, Artist (by telephone)
Phebe Hemphill, Artist (by telephone)
Frank Morris, Artist (by telephone)
Chris Costello, Artist (by telephone)
Richard Masters, Artist (by telephone)
Renata Gordon, Artist (by telephone)

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A G E N D A
Page
Welcome and Roll Call

5

Approval of Minutes

8

2019 American Legion Commemorative Coin Program
Candidate Designs

9

Discussion of Concepts/Themes for Native
American $1 Coin Program (2021+)

132

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P R O C E E D I N G S
Welcome and Roll Call
CHAIR LANNIN:

Good morning.

I would like to

call to order this meeting of the Citizens Coinage
Advisory Committee for Tuesday, March 13th, 2018.
Before we begin, I want to introduce members
of the committee.
your name.

Please respond, present, when I call

Heidi Wastweet?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
CHAIR LANNIN:
MEMBER URAM:

Okay.

In the bathroom.
Thomas Uram?

Present.

CHAIR LANNIN: Dennis Tucker?
MEMBER TUCKER:
CHAIR LANNIN:

Present.
Donald Scarinci?

MEMBER SCARINCI:

Present.

Present when we

call your name.
CHAIR LANNIN: Jeanne Stevens-Sollman?
MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Present.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Michael Moran.

MEMBER MORAN:

Present.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Erik Jansen.

MEMBER JANSEN:

Present.

6
CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

we need Heidi with us.

We need Robert Hoge and
And Herman Viola will be

joining us by phone at some point today.
And I'm Mary Lannin.
meeting.

I will chair today's

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar cannot attend today's

meeting.
The CCAC will consider the following items
today:

The discussion of the letter to the Secretary

and the minutes from our January 16th, 2018 telephonic
meeting; the review of the candidate designs for the
2019 American Legion Commemorative Coin Program; the
theme and concept discussion for the 2021 through 2024
Native American $1 Coin Program.
So before we begin our proceedings, are there
members of the press in attendance or on the phone?
MR. WALKER:

Yes, I'm Stephen Walker.

CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. WALKER:

Can you repeat please?

Sure.

I'm Steven Walker, Coin

Week.
CHAIR LANNIN: All right.

Good morning.

Thank

you for attending.
MR. JAMAL:

I'm here as well.

I'm Brandon

7
Jamal of Coin Update (ph).
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you.

Anyone else?

(No audible response.)
CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

Thank you.

And for the

record, I would like to acknowledge the following Mint
staff that are participating in today's public meeting.
April Stafford, chief, Office of Design Management, and
program managers from that office, Pam Borer, Vanessa
Franck, and Roger Vasquez.
liaison to the CCAC.

Betty Birdsong, acting

And Greg Weiman, counsel to the

CCAC.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
CHAIR LANNIN:

Megan is on the phone.

And Megan is on the phone, and

Megan is coming.
All right.

I'd like to begin with the mint.

Do we have any issues that needs to be addressed?
All right.

Do we have any issues that need to

be addressed with the mint?

At all?

Anyone?

(No audible response.)
CHAIR LANNIN:

Nothing?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

Well, other than the

fact that our administrative issue are -- our badges

8
need to be updated?
(Simultaneous speaking.)
MR. WEINMAN:

We just notified -- we just

became aware of that, and we'll look in -- we'll look
into that, the badges.
MS. BIRDSONG:

We're checking into it now.

Approval of Minutes
CHAIR LANNIN:
much.

Okay, good.

Thank you so very

All right.

The very first item in our agenda, as it
usually is, is the approval of the minutes from our
previous meeting.

In this case, it was the January

16th telephonic meeting.
Does anybody have any comments on the
document?
MEMBER URAM:

Motion to approve.

CHAIR LANNIN:
to approve by Thom.

Hearing now, there's a motion
Is there a second?

MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
CHAIR LANNIN:
very much.

I second.

Jeanne seconds it.

Thank you

All those in favor, please say signify by

saying, aye.

9
IN UNISON: Aye.
CHAIR LANNIN: Any objections to the motion?
(No audible response.)
CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay, the motion and the

letters are approved.
April, are you ready to begin?
MS. STAFFORD:

Yes, ma'am.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Please do.

2019 American Legion Commemorative
Coin Program Candidate Designs
MS. STAFFORD:

Public Law 115-65 authorizes

the Secretary of the Treasury to mint an issue $5-gold,
$1-silver, and half-dollar clad coins in recognition
and celebration of the 100th anniversary of the
American Legion.

The Act requires that the coin

designs be emblematic of the American Legion.

And

surcharges for this program are authorized to be paid
to the American Legion.
Some background, the American Legion was
founded March 15th, 1919 in Paris, France by members of
the American Expeditionary Force occupying Europe after
World War I.

They were concerned about the welfare of

10
their comrades and communities upon their return to the
United States.
The American Legion quickly grew to become the
largest veterans service organization in the United
States.

As it has done since that first caucus in

Paris in 1919, the American Legion has performed its
duties to community, state, and nation with far less
regard for individual praises or the media spotlight
than it has for the mission at hand:

to strengthen the

nation in four areas of concentration known as the four
pillars.
They are veterans, including healthcare,
disability compensation, employment, and educational
opportunities;
Americanism, including such things as the flag
code, voter registration, youth mentorship, and good
citizenship;
Children and youth, including mentorship,
home, health, education, character and opportunity;
And finally, defense, lending strong support
for the United States Armed Forces since World War I.
The American Legion has a long list of

11
accomplishments during its nearly 100 years in
existence, including but not limited to, advocating for
the enactment of the G.I. Bill in 1944;
Creation of a set of standards for proper
respect and treatment of the U.S. flag, later adopted
as the U.S. Flag Code;
Advocating for the consolidation of multiple
bureaus into one Veterans Administration;
Disaster relief at local and national levels,
from the tornadoes of Northern Indiana in 1919 to the
2017 hurricanes;
Raising funds for and erecting thousands of
monuments and memorials that honor military service,
including the Tomb of the Unknown at Arlington National
Cemetery;
Coordinating a number of youth programs that
promote fitness, citizenship, scholarship, service, and
other opportunities for young people; and awarding
millions of dollars in college scholarships.
A note about the portfolio presentation today,
the candidate designs you will see are being presented
in two different manners.

Portfolios for each of the

12
metal categories, gold, silver, and clad, will be
presented in the standard obverse and revers format.
However, because our artists were tasked with
developing an obverse and a reverse design in
conjunction with one another in order to more fully
tell the story of the American Legion across both
sides, you will also see the candidate designs in
pairings.
This will allow you to consider the designs
both as individual obverses and reverses, but also in
the pairings which tell the story the artist's intended
to convey.
With us today, we have Verna Jones, executive
director of the American Legion and our liaison to this
program.
Verna, may I ask you to say a few words?
MS. JONES:

Thank you.

honor to be here.
about this coin.

Good morning.

It's an

The American Legion is so excited
100 years of loyal and faithful of

service to this country, what a great way to
commemorate 100 years of advocacy for our nation's
heroes.

13
We're excited about the designs that you
presented for us.

I look forward to being able to tell

the American Legion story across the six sides.
you.

Thank

If you have any questions for me, I'll be happy

to answer.
MS. STAFFORD:

Thank you.

CHAIR LANNIN:

You're welcome.

MS. STAFFORD:

I think it's fair, Verna, for

me to share that in our conversations about the
designs, there were several that were identified by our
liaison as strong, and even preferences.
In general, I think some of the designs that
tended to be particularly supportive did not
necessarily have (indiscernible) in the designs, just
out of a concern of, perhaps, inadvertently leaving
some people out because the American Legion represents
such a vast and diverse population; is that fair?
MS. JONES:

That's correct.

Yes, we have

200 -- I mean 2 million members, and the American
Legion has always been inclusive.

And so we want to

make sure that the designs across the coin represent
the American Legion, all the people that we have fought

14
for and all the people that we advocate for.

So that

doesn't look like a particular person for us.
As a matter of fact, the men and women who
serve this country fought for a symbol, and that is our
flag.

And so we think that the symbols across the coin

will represent the American Legion and tell a story
more adequately.
MS. STAFFORD:

Thank you so much.

MEMBER SCARINCI:

Are you going to tell us

which ones they think were -MS. STAFFORD:
portfolio.

Yes, as we go through the

Yes, sir.

Absolutely.

And if it's okay,

Madam Chair, as we've done with past programs that are
multiple coins, we'll go through all of the portfolios
before discussion; is that okay?
CHAIR LANNIN:

That's fine.

MS. STAFFORD:

All right.

First, we'll begin

with the gold $5-coin obverse.
Obverse 1, for the gold, features a young boy
looking up to a veteran in an American Legion hat.

The

man has his hands on the boy's shoulder as though to
guide him.

In the background is a waving flag.

The

15
design represents three of the four pillars of the
American Legion:
and youth.

Americanism, veterans, and children

It connects the American Legion's legacy of

accomplishment with its vision of the future.
Obverse 2 illustrates one of the four pillars
of the American Legion, children and youth.

This

design features a young boy looking up at the American
flag.

The flag, waving high overhead, is symbolic of

the strength and freedom of the United States, and the
young man looks to it with pride and happiness.
Obverse 3, a liaison preference, commemorates
the inception of the American Legion and its mission to
serve America and its war veterans.

The outer

geometric rim designed from the American Legion emblem,
the Eiffel Tower and V for victory represent the
formation of the organization in Paris in 1919 at the
end of World War I.
Obverse 4 depicts a male legionnaire saluting
and a female legionnaire placing her hand over her
heart.

The five stars in the background represent the

five major branches of the U.S. Military and the
veterans whom the American Legion serves and supports.

16
Obverse 5 depicts the American Legion's
emblem, a symbol that stands for God and country in the
highest rights of man.
Obverse 6 depicts a flag being handed to a
child to symbolize the members' enduring dedication to
passing on the Legion's principles and standards to
future generations.
Obverses 7 and 8 represent the American
Legion's ceremonial reverence for the American flag in
parades, public performances and flag disposal
ceremonies in nearly every town all over this country.
They are the visible stand of patriotism in our
communities.

Design 7 features a flag-bearer with the

American flag and a rifleman.

Design 8 features a

single flag-bearer.
Obverses 9, 10, and 11 depict a member of the
American Legion saluting to show respect and to honor
God and country.

In designs 9 and 10, a stylized the

American flag as visible behind.
10.

Here is design 9 and

All three designs feature five starts to represent

the five major branches of the U.S. Military and the
veterans whom the Legion serves and supports.

Here's

17
design 11.
Obverse 12 depicts the distinctive crest of
the American Legion cap with an American Legion pin
(indiscernible) year embroidered in place of the unit
number.
Moving on to the gold reverses, reverse 1
features the emblem of the American Legion surrounded
by four columns representing the four pillars of the
American Legion, that is, veterans, youth, Americanism,
and defense.

And the liaison noted this as a standout

design, although it did not necessarily rise to that of
a preference.
Reverse 2 features four columns representing
the four pillars of the American Legion:
youth, Americanism, and defense.

Veterans,

The flag waiving high

overhead symbolizes the strength and freedom of the
United States.

The design prominently features the

American Legion's motto, for God and country.
Reverse 3 features four simple vertical bars,
symbolic pillars, representing the four pillars of the
American Legion.

The seven stars are symbolic of the

seven war eras that members of the American Legion have

18
served since 1919.

Together these design elements

represent the United States flag.

The design

prominently features the motto, for God and country.
Reverse 4, a preference of our liaison,
portrays a respectful presentation of a properly-folded
American flag, according to the American Legion flag
code.

This display of honor for the American flag,

which represents the ideals of justice, freedom, and
democracy for which our veterans fought, represent the
American Legion's service to the nation.

Again, this

is our liaison's preference.
Reverse 5 depicts a wreath from the emblem of
the American Legion presented in memory of those who
gave their lives in the service of the United States
that liberty might endure.

The five symbolic stars

represent the five branches of the U.S. Military and
the veterans whom the American Legion serves and
supports.

At the center of the design is the

inscription, for God and country.

This design was also

noted by our liaison as a standout.
Reverse 6 visually expresses the strength and
resiliency of the phrase, for God and country, as a

19
monumental sculpture that is majestically carved in the
face of a large land formation, characteristic of the
American West.

The phrase is the American Legion's

motto.
Reverse 7 features the memorial poppy which
has officially symbolized the Legion's unwavering
dedication to the recognition of and support for
veterans' issues.

There have been many iterations of

the appearance of this symbol over the nearly 100 years
of use for this purpose.

This design portrays the

poppy as it was distributed in the 1950s and '60s which
represents upholding the same core values of previous
generations while still embracing the future.

The

inscription, in memoriam, has been incused on the
Legion's identifier tag.
Reverse 8 depicts an American Legion cap
featuring the Eiffel Tower to indicate the American
Legion's founding in Paris, a poppy, and a Legion
emblem.

The laurel wreath is representative of the

wreath in the American Legion emblem, and the star is
prominent in the American Legion auxiliary logo.
Reverse 9 features a female legionnaire

20
placing her hand over her heart to show respect and to
honor God and country.

The stylized American flag

represents Americanism, and the five visible stars
represent the five branches of the Military, as well as
the veterans whom the American Legion serves and
supports.
Finally, Reverse 10 features a folded United
States flag and the motto of the American Legion, for
God and country.
All right.

So these were the single designs,

and I believe we have a presentation of the pairings.
If you don't mind, we'll just slowly go through them.
This is illustrating the artist's submission.

It

includes obverse 1 and 2, paired potentially with
reverses 1 through 3.
Moving on, the artist submitting gold obverse
3 in conjunction with gold reverse 4.

I believe those

also represent liaison preferences individually, as
well as a pair.
Moving on, this artist submitted obverses 4,
9, 10, and 11 in conjunction and for consideration by
this committee with reverses 5 and 9.

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An artist submitted obverse 5 as a pairing
with reverse 6.
Obverses 6, 7, and 8 were submitted in
consideration with reverses 7 and 8.
Obverse 12, submitted with reverse 10.
Okay.

Moving on to the silver obverses.

Madam Chair -CHAIR LANNIN:

That's fine.

MEMBER SCARINCI:

Just get it over with.

Let's get this over with.
MS. STAFFORD:

All right.

So Mr. Scarinci

ordered us to keep going, so we shall.
Moving on to the silver obverse candidate
designs, obverse 2 depicts a World War II American
soldier standing guard before the United States flag,
our nation's primary symbol of liberty and freedom.
Obverse 3 depicts a member of the American
Legion and youthful helper, pausing to share a
contemplative moment before they were faced a tattered
and word American flag for a fallen serviceman.
Obverses 4A, 4B, and C depict a seated Lady
Liberty symbolic of American and its values.

In design

22
A, four columns represent the four pillars of the
American Legion.
In design B, a small Eiffel Tower represents
the birthplace of the American Legion.
In design C, an American eagle represents the
organization's link to the United States.
Obverse 5 depicts the American Legion emblem
adorned by oak leaves and a lily commemorating the
founding of the American Legion in Paris, France.

This

was noted as our liaison's second preference.
Obverse 6 features Lady Liberty, the mother of
democracy, commemorating the victory and homecoming of
the American Expeditionary Forces upon their return
from Europe following World War I.
She holds a branch of oak denoting the
strength and solidarity of our nation.
crown of laurel to signify her honor.

She wears a
On her chest is

an American shield, representing love of country.
The Legion emblem and lily represent the
American Legion's formation in Paris, France.

This was

also noted as a secondary preference we have down.
Obverse 7 portrays the diversity of the

23
members of the American Legion with three portraits.

A

wreath of poppy flowers surrounds those portraits.
Obverse 8 depicts the portraits of two
American Legion members, one older and one younger
veteran, an image that alludes to the organization's
100 years of service to America from World War I to the
conflicts of today, including the global war on
terrorism.
Obverse 9 depicts a World War I soldier
helping a wounded soldier.

The figures walk among

poppies which the American Legion Auxiliary established
as a symbol of fallen veterans.
Obverses 10 and 11 depict a typical World
War I soldier with a historic symbol of Paris, the Arc
de Triomphe, representing the formation of the American
Legion by members of the American Expeditionary Force
in Paris in 1919.
Design 11 also features a modern day American
Legion member saluting the founders and foresight.
This is design 10 and 11.
Design 12 features four pillars representing
the four pillars of the American Legion.

The fleur de

24
lis commemorates the formation of the American Legion
in Paris.
And finally, the last obverse, number 13,
which is our liaison's first preference, they note is
as a strong preference by them, depicts an America bald
eagle carrying an olive branch.

Additionally, the

American Legion emblem and the inscription, for God and
country, are featured below the eagle's wings.
Moving on to the reverses, reverse 1 features
the wreath from the American Legion emblem, in loving
memory of those brave comrades who gave their lives in
the service of the United States that liberty might
endure.
The star, victory symbol of World War I, also
symbolizes honor, glory, and consistency.

The 48-star

flag on the left was our flag during the founding of
the American Legion; the 50-star flag, on the right, is
our current.

The four stars represent the four pillars

of the American Legion.
Reverse 2 features the wreath from the
American Legion emblem, in loving memory of those brave
comrades who gave their lives in service of the United

25
States.

The star, victory symbol of World War I,

again, symbolizes, here, honor and glory.

The 48-star

flag flies in the center.
Reverse 3 depicts the American Legion emblem
atop the Legions four pillars of veterans, Americanism,
children and youth, and defense.
Reverse 4 features a bald eagle with the
American Legion motto, for God and country,
representing the diligence (ph) of the American
Legion's stewardship of flags and monuments for our
soldiers who make the ultimate sacrifice in service to
the United States.
Reverse 5 depicts a symbolic memorial to all
of the heroes who have died defending our nation.
Reverse 6 depicts Lady Liberty holding the
palm (ph) of victory as she welcomes the American
Expeditionary Forces returning from Europe.

Her torch

represents enlightenment and wisdom; a heraldic eagle
on her chest symbolizes our vigor and eminence.
Reverse 7, our liaison's secondary preference,
depicts a soaring eagle, a symbol of the United States
during times of war and peace alike.

The American

26
Legion emblem is depicted above the eagle.
Reverse 8 depicts the same two veterans seen
in obverse 8.

The man is wheelchair-bound from

injuries incurred long ago during his wartime service.
And the woman is a healthcare professional who is
attending to him.
The designs convey the message that a strong
national defense begins with the life-long care of our
veterans that they need, as well as deserve upon
completing their service to our nation.
Reverse 9 combines the American Legion emblem
with a poppy flower symbolizing veterans and their
service to the nation.
Reverse 10 features selected elements of the
American Legion emblem.

The wreath forms the center,

in loving memory of brave comrades who gave their lives
in service of the United States that liberty might
endure.
Again, here, the star, which is a victory
symbol of World War I also symbolizes honor and glory.
The central element is the poppy which symbolized the
bloodshed during World War I.

The four stars represent

27
the four pillars of the American Legion.
Finally, reverse 11 represents the founding of
the American Legion in Paris in 1919.

Above, across

American and American Legion flags are simplified
elements of the Arc de Triomphe and the inscription,
100 years of service.

This is the liaison's first

preference, noted as a strong preference.
So those are the individual obverse and
reverses.

We'll go through the pairings for your

information.
Obverse 2 was submitted by an artist in
pairing with reverse 3.
Obverse 3 here is paired with reverse 4.
Obverses 4A, B, and C were paired by this
artist with reverse 5.
Obverse 5, 6, and 12 were submitted in
consideration with reverse 6 and reverse 7.
Obverse 7 was submitted singly.
Obverse 8 and reverse 8 were submitted as a
pair, and this is the one where the figures on the
obverse carry over to the reverse.
And obverse 9 was developed in conjunction

28
with reverse 9.
Obverses 10 and 11, seen here, were developed
by this artist to pair with reverses 1, 2, and 10.
Obverse 13 was paired with reverse 11.

And

again, those are preferences by our liaison.
Okay.

Moving on to the clad obverse, obverse

1 depicts two young participants in one of the many
programs the American Legion offers as they begin their
event with the Pledge of Allegiance.
Obverse 2 depicts a woman wearing an American
Legion cap, standing between two small children with
her hands on their backs in a gesture of support.

This

trio is meant to symbolize the support that the
American Legion gives to young people through a
multitude of programs, embodying the American Legion's
fourth pillar, children and youth.
Obverse 3, for the clad, features a young man
receiving a flag from American Legion members.

The

work of American Legion members to serve youth and
promote civics and patriotism inspires this design.

It

also recalls the Legion's work in developing the flag
code and providing service for the families of

29
veterans.
Obverse 4 features a young family reuniting
following their father's return from service.

The work

of the American Legion to serve active duty military
and their families inspires this design.

This design

recalls the Legion members' own service to our country
in different places, different times, and throughout
different conflicts.
Obverse 5, a liaison preference, or the
liaison preference for the clad, depicts two children
standing and reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, the
little girl proudly wearing her grandfather's old
American Legion hat.
Obverse 6 features a wounded veteran in a
wheelchair, proudly wearing his medals and American
Legion cap while holding the flag, the symbol of the
country he still serves.
Obverse 7 depicts the lamp of knowledge of the
Constitution's We the People script, representing the
American Legion's promotion of knowledge of U.S.
Constitution and commitment to Americanism, one of the
four pillars.

30
Moving on to the clad reverses, reverses 1 and
2 feature the wreath -- excuse me -- as well as 3
feature the wreath from the American Legion emblem, in
loving memory of brave comrades who have come before.
The star, here, is victory symbol of World War I, also
symbolizing honor and glory.
So in design 1, the center features the
beginning of the Pledge of Allegiance.

The center of

design 2 features the American Legion emblem.

And the

center of design 3 features selected text from the
preamble to the American Legion's constitution.

I

should note that designs 1 and 3 are preferences with
slight text edits.
Just going back real quick to reverse 1, it
was discussed that since the United States of America
is actually centered and featured as part of text from
the Pledge of Allegiance that the additional
inscription on the edge, or on the border, the United
States of America, would not be necessary.
And the denomination half-dollar could be
moved there instead, to get a little bit more field.
Additionally, in design 3, there was discussion about

31
placing these in a proper order that reflects the
actual preamble.
Reverse 4 features a man wearing an American
Legion cap, standing and saluting the American flag.
This gesture symbolizes the American Legion's
commitment to Americanism, one of the four pillars, as
well as the members' military service.
Reverses 5A and B feature a wreath created by
a series of hands supporting each other.

The hands

become successfully smaller, moving from bottom to top,
signifying the Legion's programs established to care
for the families of veterans, youth, and children.
The single flower at the base is a symbol of
caring, the motive for the work done on behalf
veterans, families, youth, children, and communities.
Design A features the inscription, for God and country.
This is design A and B with the inscription, mutual
helpfulness.
Reverse 6, the liaison's with their preferred
obverse, as well as a pairing submitted by a single
artist completes the phrase from the obverse, I pledge
allegiance to the flag.

And here, you see, of the

32
United States of America.
The design depicts an American flag waving
atop a high-flag pole as seen from the children's point
of view from the ground below.

The American Legion's

emblem is featured just above the flag.
Reverse 7 depicts a wreath placed at the Tomb
of the Unknown Solider and balances the idea of serving
survivors and the concept of honoring the fallen.
Reverse 8 depicts the four pillars of the
American Legion.

The four pillars inscribed, youth,

veterans, defense, and Americanism.

The light of the

sun conveys with illumination and passage of time,
accented by 100 years at the top of the columns.
And finally, reverse 9 depicts a wreath with
the inscription, rest in honor of glory, representing
the American Legion's work of serving survivors and
honoring the fallen.
Those are the single designs submitted in both
obverse and reverse for clad.

Here are the pairings.

This artist submitted obverse 1 in conjunction with
reverse 1, 2, or 3.
Here, the artist submitted obverse 2 with

33
reverse 4.
Here, the artist submitted both obverses 3 and
4 with reverses 5A and 5B.
These designs, which again are the liaison's
preferences, depict obverse 5 paired with reverse 6.
Here, the artist submitted obverse 6 and 7 in
consideration with reverses 7, 8, or 9.
And that concludes the pairings.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Madam Chair?

Thank you so much, April.

We

have quite a lot of designs to go through, as she said,
understandably.

All right.

I think we can begin our

discussion.
Jeanne, would you like to go first?
MEMBER SCARINCI:
CHAIR LANNIN:

Could I ask a question?

Sure.

MEMBER SCARINCI:

If I make a motion to reject

that all designs is -- are we able to get us new
designs or we beyond that?
CHAIR LANNIN:

We're beyond that, I believe.

Am I correct?
MS. STAFFORD:

We are beyond that, as far as

from the manufacturing standpoint.

Earlier, when we

34
discussed this program, I shared that we all
acknowledge this is a 2019 program, and we're well into
2018.
As the legislation was signed late, we wanted
to ensure that we got everything moving.

But I would

suggest we pursue the process and see where we end up
as far as consensus and recommendations.
MEMBER SCARINCI:

Second question, what

artists are joining us on video?

Are any artists

joining us -MS. STAFFORD:
yes.

Not on video, but on telephone,

We've artists from Philadelphia, our sculptor

(indiscernible), as well as artists from the AIP (ph).
MEMBER SCARINCI:
MR. MENNA:

Joe Menna.

MEMBER SCARINCI:
MS. HEMPHILL:

Hi, Phebe.

Frank Morris (ph).

MR. COSTELLO:
MR. MASTERS:

Hi, Joe.

Phebe Hemphill.

MEMBER SCARINCI:
MR. MORRIS:

Who is on?

Chris Costello (ph).
Richard Masters (ph).

MEMBER SCARINCI:

Thank you.

Thank you for

35
participating.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

Thank you so much.

Jeanne, I begin with you.
MS. GORDON:

Renata Gordon.

CHAIR LANNIN:
Renata.

I'm sorry.

Who was that?

Hello, Ronata.

So any technical questions before we start
talking about all of this, that we need to ask
(indiscernible) or the staff with the Mint?
(No audible response.)
CHAIR LANNIN:

We can save until we figure out

designs then.
MEMBER JANSEN:

Actually, a comment on the

most recent frosting because I'm sure, at some point,
some texture is going to be involved in something here.
You guys are doing a much-improved job among various
degradations, degrees of frosting, as well as it's
actually becoming frosting instead of obliteration.
And it's kind of a backhanded compliment, but
we had a number of years where the frosting had just
been so obliterating.

I just want to put out that I

technically appreciate that refinement and in the use

36
of it because I think in the most recent commemoratives
that we will see and have seen recently, and then the
platinums in particular, we're making really great
progress here.

Thank you.

MEMBER MORAN:

Mary, I've got one question.

CHAIR LANNIN:

All right.

MEMBER MORAN:

On the wreath of hand, so to

speak, and fadeaway, is that coinable to where it looks
like the artist's rendering on the half-dollar, those
along the reverse, right there?
MR. HARRIGAL:

Yes, we get to the edge of the

coin, we do feather the artwork down to the level, so
that was designed to be coinable.

And it has go

through the coinability review.
MEMBER MORAN:

Okay.

MS. WASTWEET:

Is that not polished?

One of

the -MR. HARRIGAL:

The proofed version will have

the arms polished, but it will fade out to the border.
MS. WASTWEET:

It's going to be polished and

faded?
MR. HARRIGAL:

It'll be -- well, the

37
background will be polished and the artwork will have
degrees of the frosting.

We try to limit the number of

levels because it's really hard, when you get in
production, to differentiate between the various
levels.
We generally keep it to like two, maybe three
at most, if there's enough artwork, that needs that
kind of differentiation on the frosting levels.

But

yes, the hands, as they form and they get to the
border, they will -- they will fade into the border.
And they will be frosted.
MS. WASTWEET:
production though?
MR. HARRIGAL:

How is that maintainable in
They didn't change through the run?
No.

It should -- well, there

is a bit of a degradation on it.
closely as we go.

We do watch it

And, you know, I think that's

evident in how some of these coins grade out as MS70s
and some as a little lower.
make everything MS70s.

Ultimately, we'd like to

But, you know, when you're

dealing with a large volume product like this, yeah, we
have done some coins that have had artwork that frost
all the way to near the border.

38
As it starts to come up, we will set the
quality standard so there's not that much variation,
and adjust our dye life when we change dyes in that
accordingly.
MS. WASTWEET:
to maintain.

That sounded really difficult

I mean --

MR. HARRIGAL:
of things before.
MS. WASTWEET:

You know, we've done these type
I mean you really -Not typically.

Usually, we

have a clear outline.
MR. HARRIGAL:

Right.

MS. WASTWEET:

And the dimension between frost

and polish -MR. HARRIGAL:

Right.

MS. WASTWEET:

-- so that we do have a

consistent quality through the run and don't have any
degradations.
MR. HARRIGAL:

Yeah.

Well, I think -- I think

on this one, I think you will see, as we do our
developmental process, we do a preproduction run to see
how much that we need to deal with on the intensity of
the frosting.

39
And typically, when you show something that
fades into the background like that, it does actually
become a level of relief on it as you go to the border.
And so you may see a bit of an edge there as you get to
the border.
For the design like this, you know, when you
start getting out near the outer edge of the letter
circle, that's going to pretty much define as far out
as you want to go with any kind of relief or frosting.
So I think, you know, even though it's not
known here, there will be a certain amount of light and
edge to the end of those arms.

But you're not -- the

drawing doesn't show it that way, but yes, we can fade
and take the frosting out of there.
MS. WASTWEET:

I would recommend -- from my

point of view, I think that that would be an
unnecessary compromise to have to deal with that in
production.

I would recommend against anything fading

like that for the reasons that you stated.
MR. HARRIGAL:

Well, I think obviously, if we

have issues where we can't control it, then we would
have to frost the other elements like the flower and

40
the lettering, and leave the arms as not being frosted,
if we can't control it.
MS. STAFFORD:

I'm sorry.

For clarity, may I

just ask, is this a technical question or is
this -- was this a design that was being recommended
by -MS. WASTWEET:

We're assessing degradation --

(Simultaneous speaking.)
MEMBER SCARINCI:

I'm sorry.

to actually vote for this?

Is anybody going

I mean nobody is going to

vote for this.
MS. WASTWEET:

I'm speaking in general of

designs and coinability, when we see things in our
packet that fade into the background.

Generally, I

look at that and say, oh, that's something that I
wouldn't recommend despite the artwork.
No matter what the artwork looks like, when I
see a fade like that, I think, I'm not going to
recommend that because that's a production challenge.
And having toward the mints and seeing the production,
seeing trays of coins coming of the press, and seeing
the degradation of frosting and the delicate edges,

41
that's something that I notice from tray to tray, that
there's an inconsistency.

And so I would lean towards

not recommending any designs that fades, as a technical
aspect.
MR. HARRIGAL:

I think certainly elements like

that would be much easier if they had a defined edge,
but it's something that we determine through a
preproduction phase on whether we can actually frost
the arms or not.

If we can't maintain it, we will not

frost the arms.
MS. WASTWEET:

Where would you not frost them

MR. HARRIGAL:

At all.

to?
I mean you

wouldn't -MS. WASTWEET:

So all the hands would be

polished?
MR. HARRIGAL:
MS. WASTWEET:

It would be like the --

Because you're saying arms.

Do

you mean hands?
MR. HARRIGAL:

The arms, the hands, yes.

I

mean all of that would be -- it may be more like a -(Simultaneous speaking.)

42
MS. WASTWEET:

A finished polish --

MR. HARRIGAL:
it.

-- like a wire brush look to

The background would be polished, mirror finished,

the lettering, and the flower would have the frost.

So

there would be like three different levels of finish on
that coin.
MS. WASTWEET:

I would -- I would think that

that would be a challenge then for the grading
companies to say if that is a true proof or not.

To

me, it's still a technical challenge, in my opinion.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
CHAIR LANNIN:

Sure.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
(indiscernible).

Can I say something?

This is

I mean I’m speaking out of turn and

probably gonna make my boss angry at me.

You know

what, as our technology grows and our capabilities
grow, it is our duty as a mint if we didn't try and
push ourselves to the limit and to expand what we can
do, I think.
So I mean unless something -- I'm not arguing
with Heidi, I'm not disputing your point at all.
do think it's our obligation to try and push the

But I

43
envelope.

I do think that -- if we can't do it, number

one, we won't be able to grow if we keep making the
same coin.

So I'll stop there and thank you.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you very much for chiming

in.
Do we have anybody in the room with any
technical questions (indiscernible)?
(No audible response.)
CHAIR LANNIN:

So we can begin to discuss the

artwork.
Jeanne, would you like to go first?
MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
CHAIR LANNIN:

I need --

You need a microphone.

MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Thank you, Madam

Chair.
Where to begin with this, I think this was a
mutually complicated program.

I think it's very much

like our Boys Town where we have six sides to tell our
story.
And I think we are -- have a great 100 years
to talk about.
you gave us.

And I appreciate your preferences that

I have to agree with all of them, not all

44
of them.
When I went through the portfolio, I was
always -- I'm always trying to think about who is going
to hold these coins in their hands, who are we going to
tell our story to, and how many people are going to be
able to have all of them?

Not everybody will be able

to do that.
So I'm trying to think of those people and
what we're trying to represent in the American Legion.
I think that these are very sensitive drawings, very
sensitive designs trying to address lots of issues.

I

think that when we were talking about -- and I'm just
going to speak in general, because it was a hard
portfolio for me to go through, to try and look at the
pairings.
So my work with this was to look at it several
times and almost saying, well, you know what, I think I
can pick certain designs and then mix them up and have
the story told, not necessarily, unfortunately, the way
the artist thought about it.
I appreciate April's going through these
pairings again.

It was very easy for me to see the

45
pairings up in a large format.

And I appreciated that,

but I think if we go with those pairings, we're going
to lose some of the information.
So I chose to mix them up.

And what I think

most of us are probably going to end up doing, and I
don't know if we should go through these -- I only
picked six.

That's all I could pick.

Sorry.

And so I

apologize to the artist because I know you all got very
long time working on this project.
But I found only six, and those six were
probably the most simple.

So I have to go with the

preferences a lot of times with our liaisons.

And I

think that helped me after -- I mean I didn't know
which you were choosing so, you know, I couldn't go
back and redo my project again.
What I chose -- maybe this is the way, the
easiest thing to do, is on the gold coins, we chose
5 -- I don't know if you want to go.

Okay.

Now, I chose that first because I was going
through it.

It was the emblem, it was very simple.

That doesn't mean I really have to have that.

And I

also chose number 7 because of its simplicity -- well,

46
no reverse 7, which was the single poppy.
Please just think about these as designs, not
that these are going to go together.
obverse was number 5.

Okay.

Silver

If we chose this, then I have to

X the other one.
This was the American Legion emblem, and I
truly think this was so very sensitive and it addresses
what a lot of our collectors are going back for maybe
old Greek coins.

It's quite beautiful.

So for those

people that need that loveliness, there it is.

I

prefer this one over gold obverse 5 only because it's
pretty.
So I'm thinking if we had this beautiful coin
in our hand, you know, it's a sensitive representation
of what's going on with the American Legion and all the
issues that we have to address.
Silver obverse 10, in the beginning of looking
at this portfolio, I did not know that we had the
foundation of American Legion in Paris.

So I think

it's really important historically to have the Eiffel
Tower or the Arc de Triomphe.
teaching moment.

I think this was a

So for those who are historically-

47
leaning, I think this was great.
I love the fact that we have, you know, World
War I represented and more contemporary.
addresses a whole lot of issues.

It sort of

I realize this was

not a preference for the American Legion, and I'm sorry
to say that, but I'm thinking of the story, only the
story.
And number -- silver reverse 8, again, this is
not the preference.

However, I think we have a

representation of our long time older veterans.

And

also, we have a woman represented as a caregiver.
think we're getting into a lot of information.

I

This

probably would have to be on a larger coin, not on the
gold coin.

Again, this is just an idea.

And the last one that I chose was the clad
number 3, obverse 3.

And here, where we have -- in our

symbolism of Americanism, one of the pillars, I'm not
saying this is a great design.

It just tells the

story.
I think so how we have to tell the story, so
as we are looking at these coins -- and I hope somebody
might be able to change my mind for something else, you

48
know.
But I think we need to have a beginning,
because I don't think we should throw these designs
back.

I think we did a -- there's a lot of work here.

And I think we have a story to tell somehow easy,
beautifully -You know, my -- I would like to see the emblem
on something that the public would have -- you know, it
probably would be the silver or the clad.

So the

emblem might be -- the simple emblem would be the best.
How we pair that with some of the figurative designs
probably would make a good statement for those people
that will have this coin.
I like to think about the coins that we have
as American art in our pocket.

If we think about that

and we travel around to different countries or to
different audiences, and we can take it out and I do it
so many times, especially with young people, to say,
look what I have in my pocket, especially the American,
the beautiful coins.

They get to see America.

With this program, we get to see amazing
history.

How are we going to say that to our youth, to

49
get them off from their little cell phones and into
looking what's in their pocket?

I mean you can give

people a coin; they don't even know what they're
getting.
So that's what I'm going for, is to have each
one of you pick a series and tell a story.

And how we

pick these at the very end of this meeting, then maybe
we can mash them and make a good story.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you.

Thank you.

Jeanne, did you

have a clad reverse -MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

No, I did not.

I'm

counting on -MS. LANNIN:

The rest of us --

MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I'm counting on the

rest of you, and I'm also counting on the fact that we
are going to -- these are the only ones that I could
pick.

Sorry.

I regret not being to have more, but I'm

thinking about what we have, our task at hand.

So my

apologies to the liaisons for not picking theirs, all
of them.

But I think I got some of them.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you for starting us on

50
this path.
Dennis, would you be willing to talk to us,
please?
MEMBER TUCKER:

Yes.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

And I think I'll need your microphone.
CHAIR LANNIN:
MEMBER TUCKER:

Oh, yes, of course.
Thanks.

Well, I don't think

I'll try to present a comprehensive plan but just
further the conversation.
Some thoughts I had as I approach those
portfolio was -- my personal experience with the
American Legion largely comes from World War II and
that generation because some of my uncles fought in the
war and, of course, it was the home front aspect as
well.
And I think in every community in American,
you see the American Legion emblem.

And if you've ever

found grandpa's cigar box of coins and mementos from
the war, from war time, you'll always find the American
Legion in it.
I think it's important to highlight and
feature the emblem, and I agree that the silver dollar,

51
I think, would be a good candidate for that being a
central design.
I would caution us not to have -- not to
repeat the emblem on obverse and reverse of any given
coin.

I think that's -- that's a visual trap that we

have to be weary off.

But the emblem was so important,

you know, you often see it even in later depth when
it's on pins and physical emblems as a logo.
I like the use of lily and oak here, you know,
its strength, its commemoration in this design, the
silver obverse 5.
As something I noticed as I looked through
some of the designs is that a few of them almost
cannibalized the different element of the American
Legion emblem.

And each element of the emblem is very

important.
So to my eye, it was jarring to see some that
will kind of pick the sun rays and use those.
will use the star but not the circles.

Others

And actually,

the circles are very elemental to this emblem.

The

outer circle, I believe, represents the veterans, and
the inner circle represents youth.

I might have that

52
mixed up.
So every element of the emblem is important.
And I would -- I would avoid picking and choosing which
ones we use almost as artistic design elements.

Keep

it -- keep it as a single unified emblem as it should
be.
Something else that guided me as I looked at
these was, you know, Jeanne talked about telling a
story.

So I really tried to study how does the

American Legion tell its story.
And I spent a lot of time on the website,
which is a great way for -- you know, that's the modern
way of telling stories.

And a lot of the stories are

told as human interest.

There are a lot of personal

stories, videos that are shared online.
And a lot of women, frankly, talking about
their experiences as commanders and other leaders
within the Legion and being very honest about some of
the resistance that they felt.
But at the same time, I understand that
there's a challenge of representation and not wanting
to just show one race or one gender, or one level of

53
physical capability, or health, or what have you.

So I

understand that there's, you know, the pressure
towards -- or the importance of showing symbolic
elements rather than literal figures.
I liked a lot of the -- I liked the gold
recommendations that our liaisons had, and the silver
as well.

The copper, I think was more challenging

especially with reverses.

Nothing really stood out

there for me.
Again, not comprehensive -- not a
comprehensive plan, but I just wanted to add these
thoughts to the conversation.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you.

Thank you so much, Dennis.

Robert?
MEMBER HOGE:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

like to echo Jeanne and Dennis' comments.

I would
I had a lot

of trouble trying to select individual designs.

And I

really couldn't come up very well with the pairings.
didn't necessarily enjoy the pairings as suggested by
the artists.
I have several general observations for this
particular portfolio.

It seems to me that the artist,

I

54
to some extent, had not really paid attention to the
fact that these are very small objects.

These are

coins we're talking about.
When you see emblems such as the American
Legion's symbol placed in the middle of a little
circle, a little disk, a lot of details is just going
to be just gone.

It won't be there.

The design has to

be relatively large, relatively bold to make any
impression on something as small as a coin.
Another aspect of these designs is that some
of the artists indeed have done wonderful drawings,
beautiful in terms of them grayscale and shading, but
this is something that really is not appropriate to
consider much in trying to develop a coin design.
Sure, you can do that to indicate where it
might be frosted or something like that.

But to try to

indicate the depth using the shading, I think this is
not a very effective way of trying to present the
artwork that's being proposed here.
I think it's very important to try to include
the American flag.
again.

And we see this over and over

We see people in military uniforms over and

55
over again on our coins.

But in the case of the

American Legion, I mean this is really elemental and
central to the whole project.

So I think that we need

to probably include those.
I think the Eiffel Tower is a better
representation of the origins in France than is the Arc
de Triomphe just because it's more recognizable as
definitely being Paris.
Apart from these observations, I think the
four columns, while I like them since I've been part of
the time in Caledonia (ph) these days, this is also a
symbol of Barcelona (ph).

You see it every day when

you go to the area where the great fair of 1929 was
held.
And actually, it's derived from the flag
emblem of Caledonia which is the red stripes.

So this

is not quite as original to the United States as it
might be.
The designs that show the large star within
the circular rim, to me, it looked like sheriff badges.
And so we have to be kind of cautious about selecting
these designs even though they are important in

56
representing accurately the American Legion's
symbolism.

It's kind of a funny little effect if this

was -- maybe if this was cut out, it could be turned
into a badge very readily.
I actually have a small collection of these
little badges and so I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is
what it looks like.

So beyond that, I don't really

have any suggestions right now, my own personal
particular preferences for obverses and reverses.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you so much.

Erik, I'm sure you have things to add.
MEMBER JANSEN:

Thanks, Mary.

difficult process for me.

This is a very

I looked these over, I set

them aside, and I looked them over, I came back, I set
them aside, I looked them over.
And unlike most of the art over the last
couple of years, nothing came together.
say that.

And I'm sad to

From logistical reasons to the Mint, I know

the artists have put a ton of work into this, but it's
not coming together.
As a couple of comments, for future, we
struggle with this three-coin dimension and the

57
process, as a committee to, let's borrow this clad and
move with this gold, and the conversation becomes so
difficult to manage because at the end of the day, we
need to vote and put forth a preference and a
recommendation.
So thoughts here, gold, silver, clad.

Now, I

always think of gold as the overarching big picture
coin.

The silver is the trophy that generates the

volume, generates the commercial success, is the
largest palette.
And I think in the obverse of the silver is
the trophy spot.

That's where I always want the best

piece of art to be that appeals to the most, tells the
story and really, I mean that's the trophy and the
artist gets that one.
And I think of the clad as kind of the fun,
light thing.

If there are kids in the equation, yeah,

maybe it's the lowest cost option.

That's what I think

of it.
And I don't think we got any of that spirit of
overall demarcation in the artwork here.

And so we're

ended up with a big old pile of designs here that we're

58
trying to sort through.
And as Jeanne very much reflected my thinking,
I'm trying to come up with six designs that we can
somehow cobble together a program that makes some
people happy.
I think we have defaulted into way too many
World War I, World War II images here.
into too many eagles and Americana.

We've defaulted

Now, Americanism

is different than Americana, but we seem to be stuck on
Americana.
So I'm saddened by that.

As a committee, I'm

saddened that I don't think we're going to be able to
do as good a job here as I believe this legislation
from the helm wanted.
And I'm saddened that -- I personally am going
to sit here and let down the liaison's energy because
she comes here with expectations, as she should.

And I

just want to do my best to try to send her home with
something she's happy with and at the same time serve
the Legion.
It's 2 million members?

I mean that's one of

the largest audiences we're going to market to in a

59
while, and it'll be interesting to see how the volumes,
especially in the silver dollar, reflect that because
I've watched the metals go through here recently of
World War I.

And I was disappointed as to the demand

and the lack thereof, the lack of purchases of those
metals.

I'm really disappointed.

So having deflated all of that, let's try and
build it up from the bottom here.

So what I'm going to

do is I'm just going to walk through the gold, and then
the silver, and then the clad only because that's the
order they were presented in.

And then not really

necessarily respecting the founders.
So starting with the gold obverse, I think of
the American Legion here -- I would want to think, I
want to present them as a youthful, energetic, active
verb.

Not a sad memoriam.

And so I'm looking for dimensions that bring
in the current generations.

I'm looking for dimensions

that bring in men, women, children, life, health,
service, those kind of active things.
And so you're going to find that I'm going to
reject the symbols of the founding in Paris.

I'm going

60
to reject the -- the symbols of memoriam of those
fallen.

That's for a different program.

I want inspirational stuff that inspires to
help us serve, and understand, and even -- I mean how
dare me project the marketing of the American Legion.
To give you some -- nowhere in here are there images
that talk of the Korean war, the Vietnam war, the
Middle East crises?

Nowhere.

At least not in -- not in any proportion
relative to what I see for recital or stating World War
I and World War II images.

And I think that's

marketing you into a corner, as opposed to appealing to
the next 2 million people, citizens that are going to
join this.
Gold obverse 1 carries that kind of energy.
I'm not tying in the artistic design.

I think the

design number 2 totally loses it with the -- with
the -- the child looking up into a missing persona.
Design 3 will get no support from me.

It's a nice,

lovely, balanced piece of geometry but V for victory,
is that what V is for?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

Veterans.

61
MEMBER JANSEN:
What is it?

Veterans.

Is it the number 5?

I -- I don't see it image as really

carries forth our mission here.

If it's veterans, oh,

I'd rather see someone of the G.I. Bill.
Design of obverse gold 5 is a utilitarian
design that we probably need to incorporate in one of
these six surfaces.

And that's where I'd run out of

steam in the gold obverses.

I would like to like

obverse 4 because it carries a -- a male and a female.
Please, I don't think the hands work somehow.
So I move to the gold reverses.

And

unfortunately, I'm not happy with the column approach
here.

The columns don't seem to tie or carry forth

their well meanings.

It's more -- it seems to me

they're -- they're representing more of being important
as columns than they are important as the four
foundational concepts here.
So I ended up looking at reverse number 4 as
a -- as a design that -- I don't love the -- I don't
love the design.

I like the idea.

It probably doesn't

belong in a silver or a clad.
It probably belongs on gold in my thinking,

62
because it's -- it's this -- this very high level
foundational item.
Americanism.

It carries respect.

It carries

It carries the concept that they can be

stretched a little bit to the defense.
And I'm hesitant to go with reverse 7 because
I really don't want this thing to carry the memoriam as
the primary mission.

I think we missed it, guys.

think we missed it there.

I

So I run out of steam there

on the gold.
When I go to the silver, on the obverses, I
ended up with obverse 5 as the utilitarian proxy.

So

that we -- we -- whether you like this one or you like
the -- the other more literal rendition of the symbol,
you have to keep it in there as a proxy piece.
I would hate to see this necessarily consume
the obverse of the silver.

And it's not fun enough to

be the obverse of 50 cent or I don't know where to put
it.
Silver obverse 8 is not an artistic design
that I like, but it carries a theme that needs to be
put forth about youth and -- and so forth.
I ran out of any of the other obverses out of

63
the silver, guys.

I'm going to reject the design with

the soldier and a gun.

I'm going to reject the design

with the Eifel Towers.

And I'm going to reject obverse

3 because it's a depressing design to me.
I wanted to like obverse 13.
interesting eagle.

I think it's an

I'm not real clear on the tucking

of the -- of the logo under the wing.

And then I

scratch my head, and I go, wow, for God and country.
Is this a boy scout award?
All right.

What is this?

So silver reverses.

Sorry for

more of saying, I want to say the following -- I -- I
wanted to like reverse 9.
somehow.

I wanted to use that

The American Legion text doesn't work for me

the way it's laid out.
I don't know whether it's the -- it's the
horizontal-oriented type face $1, there's an
imbalancing (sic) presence of that design, the $1
denomination.
I wanted to do something with reverse 9.
think we have to move it around a lot.

I

Reverse 7 is a

utilitarian design to keep in the pile of -- if that's
what you want.

And I ran out of steam on the silvers.

64
So then jumping to the clads, this is where I
love to have a fun design, a lightweight design.

A

lower price point product to lighten up in a birthday
present or something, a graduation present, or
something for a child.
Obverse 5, I really don't care for the art.

I

don't really care for the -- for the -- for the -- the
artist's hand here.

I love the concept of two kids.

I do not care for the continuation of the
pledge of allegiance to the flag, dot, dot, dot onto
the other side.

It's somewhere between insulting and

totally missing the point of having an image stand on
its own.
I really -- I really -- I don't like that.
And so I ended up kicking the reverse 8 (ph) have as
well.
Obverse 6 is a -- a shattered image.

That is

a -- when you really -- at first, you'll say, oh,
there's a soldier in a wheelchair.

I get it.

when you really look at it, you go, oh, my.
it's a bold design to put on a coin.
what you ask for.

And then

I think

Think twice about

65
I would love obverse 4, but it -- it feels
very patronizing to me.

It's almost so in-my-face in

its simplicity that there's no elegance there.
In the reverses, metals are one thing with a
lot of text, coins with text on them are not coins.

I

have a problem with -- with 1 and 3, and I know they're
preferences.

But if we were doing a metal, and maybe a

joint metal to go with this, boy, bring it on.

But as

a coin, it -- it's kind of not working for me.
5 and 6, the hands just don't work for me.

I

didn't -- definitely didn't see the -- the age,
transition in the hands.

And I think Heidi's questions

on the frosting are right on.
I learned to like reverse 4.

Maybe that's

because I liked -- I liked Patton as a movie, and it
brought that kind of Americanism to my mind, I don't
know if you're a fan of George Patton or not.
But the point is that that -- that is
Americanism.

United States of America is featured

right at the front there.
fun coin in that sense.
the half dollar.

It's kind of a lightweight
And -- and so I welcome it in

66
Design 8, seriously?

Putting the words on the

columns, one, they would disappear and so they're
almost pointless in their presence in the artwork
because of the sheer size of the palette.

And two,

it -- it feels more like an engineer's designed than a
piece of art.

And I ran out of steam.

I don't think I

got to six, Jeanne.
MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
got 5.

Congratulations, we

Almost.

MEMBER JANSEN:
CHAIR LANNIN:

Next.
Thank you, Erik.

Michael?
MEMBER MORAN:
Mary.

Thank you, Mary.

Thank you,

I struggled with this as well as everybody

else -- but I do have some suggestions and on a lot of
the fact that I think that we're going to have to go
with what we've got.
Turning first to the $5-gold piece, I think
you need to keep it simple because it's a size of a
nickel.

You're generally limited with one head on the

nickel.

It's just what you've got to work with.

I'm

sorry that we did not have a symbol of American Legion

67
pin to the reverse.
I think you can probably make it from obverse
5.

Although there is some more room for the -- less

room for the legends and more room for the pin.
think they would look on the gold coin.

I

Really good.

In terms of the other obverses though, I
particularly like the idea of both 10 and 11, for the
image of the -- the inscriptions are stacked, but they
made a basic error there.

I mean you can't have one

one way, one the other, it's just -UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
MEMBER MORAN:

The text.

Yeah, I just -- I don't know

how they got through -- I don't know what they were
thinking.
Looking at 10, I like the detached hand and –
and I think maybe the hand works there.

You go to 11,

and this was after consulting with Heidi and looking at
it, putting it now to the size of a nickel, it's going
to be a mess.
It's just going to be this blob in front of
the guy's face and it won't coin well.

It looks good

as a sketch at this point in time, (indiscernible).

So

68
I'm probably going to end up with 10 as my -- my choice
there.
On the reverse, there are a couple of them
that are worthwhile and I'll comment about them, and I
think this is my second favorite of the two, and that's
reverse 7.
I remember this from being a kid.

I think

maybe I'm the oldest member on this committee.

Not

that I think that's anything, a point of pride, but I
do remember this -- these poppies.
And it does symbolize the American Legion that
I knew in my youth.

So it has something drawing me.

But when I came in on Delta yesterday afternoon from
Atlanta, we were carrying a fallen soldier in the hold
plane, and they had an escort up in first class.
They asked that we stay seated until the body
was removed from the plane as a part of respect.

And

it was amazing to see the people that are over there,
there was no complaint about this.

It was just basic

silence as we sat there at the gate while the hearse
pulled up and they remove the coffin.

And even when

they opened the doors, people were still there watching

69
it go.
That is -- none of us really -- unless we've
lost a member of our family or our close acquaintance
in these wars that have continued in Afghanistan and
the various areas of the Middle East, none of really
had that touch us, come that close to death when you
see the coffin removed.

As a result of that, I think

that reverse 5 shows up well on a gold coin.
can't read.

Reverse 4.

My bad.

I -- I

That one.

And I think the hands there give it a human
touch that is lacking in reverse 10 because it is a
sense of humanity and a loss of humanity.

So I -- I'll

be voting for 4, reverse 4.
Turning to the silver coins, on the obverse,
reverse 3 on the silver is a little bit busy for a
silver dollar reverse.
3.

My bad, April.

Obverse 3, I'm sorry.

Obverse

I'm just trying to make your job

harder.
MS. STAFFORD:

No, no.

great job keeping up.
MEMBER MORAN:

Vanessa's doing a

It's okay.

Well, I -- I do like it.

like the symbols that is there.

I do

And there are a lot of

70
the others that I don't like.

I don't like the art

nouveau approach.
We -- we saw the first time on the first
renditions of the hundred-dollar modern Liberty.
this committee rejected it.

And

I'm talking about 6.

It

just -- it doesn't cut it.
And it's too dated, it's too period, and it
doesn't transfer from 1919 into 2019.

And you need

something that does that age shift from the old veteran
to the youth.

And that's really the only obverse that

I like on the dollar coin.
On the reverse, I'm going to go off the deep
end and go to 4.

That's a good eagle.

My first

comment as I saw that, (indiscernible), well, it's
different view from the tail, was the head is too
large.
And then I thought back my days of
(indiscernible), but some of the same (indiscernible)
concepts are certainly here, one of which is that eagle
is looking around at us and it is from a position of
leadership, follow me.
And the head does need to be larger than the

71
rest of the body, both from perspective and from
allegory.

And I may be the only one dumb enough to

vote for it, but my vote is on that one.
Comment on reverse 9.

I like the poppy.

And

again, that one very well could go on the $5-gold
piece.

But superimposing even and incuse the American

Legion on the $1 detracts from the poppy.
loses it.

And it just

The poppy's no longer the centerpiece.

Not that the American Legion shouldn't be but
the legends have gotten away of the picture of here and
a picture's worth a thousand words.

Get the picture,

the legend of the poppy.
So let's turn to the clads.
obverse 5 on the clads.
like it.

I like the

That's sweet.

I really do

And I think it's the one that makes me smile.

And the exact opposite is 6.
It's cutting edge.
anything like that.

That's edgy.

I don't think we've ever dealt with
I had to think a lot about that.

But I certainly am moved by that because was is no
joke, there's no glory to war.
If anything, even though I never fought, I've
learned it from seeing all the PTSD, seeing the

72
veterans come back, a double entity like this, double
amputee like this.

This does speak to Iraq, and

Afghanistan, and roadside bombs, and IUDs (sic), or
whatever they are, IADs (sic).
I don't know what to do with that one.
to hear more.
that.

I need

And maybe it can be something else for

Probably the half dollar is the right size.

fact of the matter is you have 5.

The

That's not a bad

image for a dollar coin.
But I get it about the -- I like the
continuity between that and the eagle that you're going
to get to on the reverse, but I don't like the dot,
dot, dot.
And there does need to be some continuity on
some these on the pairings and it's an opportunity to
pursue that.

But I'm not sure if this is the best

vehicle.
Reverses.

I didn't like that.

After

listening to Ron's discussion, my first inclination on
this was to choose the hands.

But I know what's going

to happen in the news world -- and this is for the
benefit of you all in the American Legion.

73
The collector is going to look for MS70, which
is basically perfection from the grading organizations
where we all take out our coins that we buy and we
submit them to the grading organizations and you want
it MS70.
69 is kind of a consolation prize and so we'll
(indiscernible) off of that.

Anything else you send

back, the Mint is going to get hit with an avalanche
returns.

And I don't know what they'll do with them.

And it's just going to -- it's going to be a
bad experience all the way around.

I -- I think after

listening to the explanations, we have to stay away
from this.

Which leads me back to reverse 6.

It's okay.

I just -- I had troubles with all

the clad reverses.

And that's it.

That's the best I

can do, Mary.
CHAIR LANNIN: Thank you, Michael.
you hiding there?
MS. WASTWEET:

Heidi, are

Add some things here?
So I'm going to go through this

whole pack, and offer full critic of each one, its pros
and cons.
MEMBER SCARINCI:

Should we take a bathroom

74
break first?
MS. WASTWEET:

I'm just kidding.

I'm overwhelmed by this packet.
harder to organize in our brains.

This is

And I agree with

everything that my colleagues have said so far.

And I

think it's really, I mean clear-headed (ph) statements.
I don't disagree with anything.

I'm going to try to

just kind of hit the highlights.
We could go to the gold obverse 5.
this is a reverse.
this.

To me,

And so I like the simplicity of

It's straight forward, and it's clear.

I like

this as a reverse.
If we can look at obverse 3, go to obverse 3,
this is a lovely design, but symbolically, it doesn't
work for me at all.

I don't know how important it is

that the American Legion started in Paris.
very important -- am I'm getting nods?

Is that

Okay.

While the Eifel tower as a monument of Paris,
the actual official symbol of Paris is the fleur de
lis, if I'm not wrong.

And the -- and the V is

confusing.
MS. STAFFORD:

Heidi, if I may interject.

believe, if I'm recalling, the artist submitted

I

75
information about the symbolisms of V not just the
veterans, V, of course, for victory, World War I, but
also representing the 5, Roman numeral, of the United
States Armed Forces.
MS. WASTWEET:
muddy for me.

Yeah, the symbolism is still

I like the design; that's very pretty.

Okay.
So we can move on to -- we can look at gold
obverse 10.

This is actually one of my favorites in

the packet.

I think this is very creative and I think

it's very dignified.
I agree that the lettering could be flipped
the other away, but that's a pretty small change.

I

like the interaction of the polish and the frost.

This

is going to look great in metal and that's what
ultimately what we're looking at.
We're not looking at drawings; we're looking
at coins and the contrast between the forms, the
negative space, and this is all really lovely.I
think the face, the drawing is excellent, and I like
this design.

76
Next, let's look at gold reverse 9, please.
like that we have a woman of age.

I

That's nice to see.

I don't understand why this is a reverse, especially
with the pairings.

I don't know.

It's a nice design.

I'm not sure what to do with it.
And then, let's talk about silver obverse 3.
Okay, I think this has merit.

It is a bit busy in the

background and a very small badge.

Again, it has

merit, but I'm not sure what to do with it.
I agree with -- I'm now looking at silver
obverses 10 and 11.

Yeah, 10, this is a nice design,

but I agree that it -- the Arc de Triomphe is symbolic
of so many -- not so many -- symbolic of other things
other than Paris.

It's a landmark of Paris, it's true,

but it stands for its own victories and wars.
it muddies the message.

I think

But I like -- I like the

composition here.
Silver obverse 8.
drawing is nice.
solid design.

I like the symbolism.

The

It's not hugely creative but it's a

I think we could -- I think we could go

with this and have a strong coin that we at least don't
regret.

That doesn't sound like a compliment, but it

77
is.
Silver obverse 12.

I like that the fleur de

lis is used here instead of a landmark of Paris.
is a creative design.
good negative space.

This

It has a lot of texture and has
This is an interesting design.

Obverse 13, I -- I find this eagle very
unattractive in the way that it's stylized and the
anatomy of it.

The shape of the wings and the position

of the head, once this is in a metal as a sculpture, as
a relief, if this were a metal and they have deeper
relief maybe that head could work.
But in the extremely shallow palette of a
coin, the position of that head is going to be very
difficult to represent.

And we won't have the benefit

of the shading like they do here on the drawing to
differentiate the head from the body.
I don't think it's going to look like this
good in a sculpture as it is here in the drawing.

And

the emblem, yeah, the emblem will get lost in that one.
That's true.
We can look at the silver reverse 7.
this is an attractive design.

I think

It has the -- the pin

78
and badge there which is nice, the lovely eagle.

It

doesn't say a whole lot about the Legion of honor, but
it adds something a little more than just having the
badge itself.

I think it's attractive.

We can look at clad obverse 6.
is really bold.

I think this

And you don't see this sort of honesty

in a lot of our designs, so I applaud that.

I'm not

sure I'm going to -- I'm not sure it's our best choice,
but I do like a lot of the effort and like seeing this
in the packet.

And I think it has variety (phonetic).

I'm going to think about that one.
Clad reverse 6, please.
view of this.

I like the point of

it's different.

It does give it some

depth that we don't normally see.

I like to see the

Legion of honor badge larger somehow.

If we look at

this actual size, that's very, very, very tiny and it
won't be recognized at all unless we're looking at this
on a computer screen, very large.
I think I'm going to conclude my remarks
there.

Thank you.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Heidi.

MEMBER SCARINCI:

Donald?

I was actually debating on

79
coming to this meeting today because I don't think
there's anything that I could do to help you other than
to have made the motion reject all of these designs and
start over.
I think, you know, you'll sell them because
you have a big organization and you'll do just fine if
you could do your own marketing and sales, and you
might see a surcharge.
But I -- my prediction, you know -- you know,
maybe you'll sell 5,000 of the gold at best.

I think

if you -- if you hit 30,000 in the silver dollars,
you're lucky.
And the clad is, you know, kind of an
inexpensive coin.

So, you know, people, you know might

buy that as gifts, and -- you know, absent your own
marketing, of course.
you know.

And I'm sure you'll market this,

And -- and you'll market these coins and try

to make a surcharge.
It's really -- artistically, this is probably
the worst group of coin designs I've seen in five
years, six years, you know, collectively.

I don't

think there's anything we can really do here to save

80
this, you know.
So I mean my inclination is just, you know,
when you -- when we're confronted with designs like
this, you know, I at some point, you know, I'd really
like to talk to the artist and find out what happened,
and how did we go backwards, and why didn't we get
anything, or is it just too fast that we had to do
this, was it the deadline?
You know, where is the creativity?
the, you know, the -- where's the punch?
emotional impact?

Where is
Where's the

You know, something obviously went

wrong in this process, you know, to make us go
backwards, and -- well, we've gone backwards.
And if we can't reject these designs and have
new ones, I think, you know, at this point, the best
thing we can probably do is give the host committee the
ones they want, and just, you know, wash our hands off
it because I don't want to be responsible for this.
My inclination is really not to vote for any
of it because I don't to put my name next to it.

So,

you know, look, are there degrees of, you know,
anything good among these things?

I mean the floating

81
hands are just like -- that just doesn't, you know, it
doesn't work.
You know, the poppy, I think -- I think would
be nice without -- anything without the -- without the
incused legend, but they seemed to have -- to have that
legend in dollar sign somewhere.
And I'm not going to sit here and try to, you
know, and try to redesign the coins like this.

That's

just not the right thing to do.
So, you know, the -- the poppy, you know, I
mean, what's nice about the poppy?

I think Bob said

it, you know -- you know, without the incused
lettering, you know, it's a simple design.

When you

have designs like this that, you know, that are not
good generally, I mean go with the simple ones, and,
you know, and just try to make do with what you got.
So I don't really want to vote for any this.
You know, I mean, I don't really like wasting time
honestly.

So I think -- I think, you know, I think --

I think what I'd like to know if this -- if the host
committee could pick -- maybe I should ask a question.
If the host committee could tell us, do they

82
have a clear preference in each category, for obverse
and reverse, starting with -- you know, obviously, the
clad is a little bit -- it's probably going to sell the
most because it's for mint (ph).

It's like a $20-coin.

So does the host committee, if you could pick
the coins that you want -- do you have a clear decision
of the coins you want?
MS. JONES:

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

know what, we looked at me.

You

I'll tell you that when we

looked at the coins, we weren't jumping up and down.
think there are some beautiful ones here, with just a
couple of things.

When we talked about number 6 -- I

just want to say this, that -UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
MS. JONES:

Which 6?

Oh, I'm sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

Which 6?

Yeah, this one.

Copper obverse, or clad

obverse.
MS. JONES:

Clad obverse.

There's a big -- a

fine line between (indiscernible) and exploitation.
When we look at that, we look at, you know, a service
member who obviously suffered some injuries.
But when you look at our American soldiers

I

83
today, those who have been wounded, (indiscernible)
different.

They don't sit around at the VA and looking

like that anymore.
They have prosthetics that have Nike shoes on
them, bracelets, tattoos.

And our American veterans

are up and moving around; they're not sitting in
wheelchairs.

Some of them will have to be there.

But this looks sad to me, and that's not who
our American veterans are.

That's not who the American

Legion, you know, what we want people to know about us.
We would take this, a veteran like that, take
them to the VA, get them some prosthetics and have that
veteran walking in no time flat.

And so I know you

guys look at that and you like it.
And there's a lot to be said about people who
have lost, you know, sacrificed so much to the defense
of this country; that's not who our American veterans
are.
That's who they were as soldiers, and I don't
think that's who the American Legion wants people to
see, you know, wants the country to see when they look
at our coin and see who we see as those that we are.

84
And then some of them with the faces on there, I think
you looked at, let's see number 10.

I'm a woman

veteran.
I'm obviously an African-American and some
other stuff mixed up in here, right?

And we have one

opportunity, one opportunity -- because I don't think
any of us here will still be around the next 100 years.
100 years, and when we look at that coin, we want it to
be inclusive of everyone, just like the American
Legion.
Did you know that women have the opportunity
to vote for a national commander before we could vote
for president in the United States?

That's right.

The

American Legion has always been inclusive of men,
women, all ethnic backgrounds, all races.
And this is just the status quo kind of image
that people see of the American Legion.

You know, we

were founded in 1919 and so many people look and they
say, that's the American Legion.

Well, that's part of

the American Legion, but that's not all of who we are.
MS. STAFFORD:

For those on the phone, our

liaison is referring to gold obverse 10.

85
MS. JONES:

And so all that, you know, to the

flag and see that gentleman there with the American
Legion hat on, an American Legion cap on, that's nice.
But I think because we have six sides to tell our 100
years and so many things that we've done that the
symbols are going to represent the American Legion so
much more.
Someone will look at this coin and think that
they'd been left out, I fought for this country as
well.

And when the American Legion -- I'm a proud

member of the American Legion and I'm happy to be an
employee of such a wonderful organization.
And when we have one opportunity to tell a
story and one opportunity to show the world who we are,
I want it to represent everyone whose blood, sweat, and
tears have gone into making the American Legion what it
is.
So when we looked at our preferences or looked
at the choices, this clad, we chose the -MEMBER JANSEN:

You want to start with the

clad or the gold?
MS. JONES:

Oh, I'm sorry.

Where do you want

86
me to start?
MEMBER JANSEN:
MS. JONES:

Gold.

MEMBER JANSEN:
MS. JONES:

Start with the gold.

So we can follow.

Right.

gold reverse number 4.

So I want to go with the
Everything that -- the

gentleman, I can't see your name, I'm sorry.
MEMBER MORAN:
MS. JONES:
amazing.

Mike.

I agree, your comments were

When we look at that, them holding that flag

that represents those who paid the ultimate sacrifice
for this country, and you can't honor them more than
that and to have the human side, the hands holding that
flag.
You know, actually our national adjunct drew a
picture.

And he wanted to see this coin.

And when we

saw the artist, one of the artists had actually put the
flag and the hands.

We agreed.

That's one of the

things that we look at, making sure that those who've
paid the ultimate -- the ultimate sacrifice are
honored.

And what better way to honor them.

beautiful coin, and we certainly --

That's a

87
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

So if I'm hearing you

correctly, you're coming to the committee saying, give
us a gold obverse, the obverse 10?
MEMBER JANSEN:

No.

She's talking about

reverse 4.
MS. JONES:

Reverse 4.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

I understand that, and

putting reverse 4 on the reverse?
MEMBER SCARINCI:

You want to pair it with

that with that?
MS. JONES:

As we've talked about gold, the

gold obverse 3, and I look at the those of those
together, and we wanted the American Legion emblem on
each of the coin somewhere.

We don't see that.

So while we continue to go through this, I'm
going to actually talked to my national adjunct in just
a few minutes and see if there's some other options for
obverse number 3, if you'll indulge me for a few
minutes to be able to do that.
MEMBER SCARINCI:
your time.

Yeah, I mean please, take

I mean what I'm really proposing -- you

know, what I'm really suggesting to this committee is

88
that since you're going to be marketing these and the
surcharges, I don't believe you're going to get the
surcharge unless you aggressively market these coins as
an organization.
I think you should pick them.
vote for whatever you pick.

I mean we'll

If you could -- if you

could tell me you have a consensus for an obverse and a
reverse of the gold, the silver dollar, and the -- I'm
just going to vote for those because there's nothing I
can do that's going to fix this mess.
MEMBER JANSEN:

The committee is really -- we

liked working with the organizations like you're
working with us here.

And we're feeling like there's a

bit of quandary here.

And we want you to walk on

proud, happy, and able -- help us.
MEMBER MORAN:

Let me interrupt for just a

second because I think we're in almost a point of
closure here on the gold coin.

As a point of

information, collectors are going to look at that
obverse, if we choose that, and say it's a redo of the
old V nickel, to those of you that are numismatists.
MEMBER SCARINCI:

Collectors

89
aren't -- collectors aren't going to buy this.
MEMBER MORAN:

Anyway, let me go forward.

MEMBER SCARINCI:

The only collectors that are

going to buy this are crazy people like me who have to
have it because they collect every coin in the series.
But otherwise, discretionary collectors are not going
to buy any of these designs.
MEMBER MORAN:
point on this.

They're terrible.

Well, let me make my final

I really think that the use of the flag

and the hands on the reverse, the logo, the badge of
the American Legion makes a good obverse for this.
MS. STAFFORD:

And Mr. Moran, just to provide

clarity, obviously, Ms. Jones will -- she's speaking to
the national adjunct.

She'll come back in and clarify.

But I believe she's -- she heard some good feedback
about this design, gold obverse 5.
And I believe -- I'll let her clarify or
confirm, that she was open to hearing your
recommendations about potentially this paired with the
flag, that she just -MEMBER MORAN:

A little downsizing of the \

liberty there, which is the $5-gold piece; I mean she's

90
going to eat up space on that coin.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Michael.

We still

have two more people who we heard from, which would be
Tom and myself about these designs.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
when she comes back.

We can come back it

Because all I really want to hear

from the -CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

So why don't we do a

ten-minute recess and come back 11:30.

How does that

sound?
MEMBER SCARINCI:
with.

No, let's just get this over

I don't want to belabor this more than -- I

don't want to be talking about these other more than we
have to be.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Guess what?

MEMBER SCARINCI:

I'm the chair.

Let's just get this over

with.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

MEMBER SCARINCI:
MS. JONES:

It's a nightmare.

Yeah, so that one looks like every

coin that every legionnaire, the coins every
legionnaire has.

That's our American Legion coin.

And

91
so we could just go with the emblem themselves and buy
the coin.
And most legionnaires already have that.

I

have a whole pocket full of them that we give out when
we go out.

I'll probably give a couple of you one or

two those before I leave.

But we have those.

So from a marketing standpoint and being able
to sell them to our members, I don't think they'll buy
them.

They already have it.

And the money that we're

going to be able to make will help so many veterans, be
able to take care of some many of them.
We have to look at those coins and the designs
to try to figure out who will buy them and try to sell
them to as many people as possible.
So the gold obverse -- can I see obverse
number 1 again, please?

So I don't know why you don't

like -- go back to obverse 3, please.
that, but -- well, let's look at that.

You may not like
The V for

victory, and the Eiffel Tower, and Liberty.

That means

a lot to the American Legion, yeah.
And then, of course, the folded flag, the gold
reverse number 4, that's the highest honor of the

92
fallen, so -MEMBER SCARINCI:
dollar.

It's what goes in the

It's a pairing -- the good news about that is

it's the same artist, so that's something the committee
can say we want, to see the same artist design the
obverse and the reverse.
they like it, done.

That's the good news.

And if

You have my -- you have my --

(Simultaneous speaking.)
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

Let's give Tom and Mary

a chance before we jump on this.
MEMBER SCARINCI:
to the dollar though.

Yeah, no, we will.

Let's go

Tell me what you want me --

(Simultaneous speaking.)
MEMBER SCARINCI:

My question is give me the

three coins that you want.

So we did the gold.

Now,

let's -- now, let's find out -MS. JONES:
of this one.

So we actually have three choices

We looked at obverse 13, and after your

comments about what you would've like on obverse 13, we
certainly don't want anything on this that's been
not -- that it won't be clear, that lines won't be, you
know, very strong.

93
And so if that's not going to mint well, then
we certainly don't want that on our coin.

We want

people to look at and have a very clear picture of what
it is.
And so number -- silver obverse 5, that is a
beautiful coin.

It has all the elements of the

American Legion and I think that the American Legion
emblem, and so the silver obverse 5 is certainly one of
our choice.
entry.

We love 13.

We got it as kind of a late

And we looked at it and felt very excited.

But

we certainly don't want (indiscernible).
And then silver reverse 11, 100 years of
service.

100 years, that's important to us, for the

American Legion emblem.

But I have a question.

On the

(indiscernible) 2019, where the emblem is there, how
will that come out when the coin is made?
That looks a little bit, on this picture, it's
almost not the right size.

It almost looks like it's

pulled out to the -- to the left side a little bit.
It's not complete, the circle.
be placed inside that flag.
with a coin that's --

I know it's supposed to

What would that look like

94
(Simultaneous speaking.)
MR. HARRIGAL:

Sure.

I think we're pretty

much going to be talking about the same thing, yeah.
CHAIR LANNIN:

The same thing, yeah, you go

ahead.
MR. HARRIGAL:
to work with here.

We don't have a lot of relief
You have to provide the illusion of

some sort of depth there because that's where the flag
is portrayed.

So you have to warp the emblem a little

bit to get it to give you that illusion on there.
You aren't going to get all that detail that's
shown on there.

You're going to see pretty much almost

like an etched design on there for the -- for the
emblem.
Like I said, you're going to see an outline, a
little bit of a silhouette, but you're not going to be
all that detail.
MS. WASTWEET:

I think some of that distortion

is from the two represented that it's on
(indiscernible).

And I think that translates and I

think it makes it more believable that it's on the flag
rather than seeing inside the flag.

95
MS. JONES:

That's fine.

I just want to make

sure that the American Legion emblem is clear, that -MS. WASTWEET:
MS. JONES:

That all the details --

MS. WASTWEET:
there.

Yeah.

It'll be small, but it'll be

And keep in mind that a lot of people will be

viewing this on a computer, so they will see the big
detail when they're viewing it that way.
And then when it's in hand, it won't be as
visible unless you're looking through a magnifying
glass.

But it'll be there.

MS. JONES:

Okay.

MR. HARRIGAL:

Sure.

And this is the largest of the

coins here so that, you know, you have the best chance
of it showing up on that coin, the silver.
MS. JONES:

Okay.

So our second choice

would've been silver obverse 5 in place of silver
obverse 13, in light of the fact that the eagle won't
come out -MEMBER SCARINCI:

So it's obverse 5 and

reverse 11?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

Yes.

96
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
MEMBER SCARINCI:
MS. JONES:

Yes.
And how about the clad?

We chose obverse -- for the clad

obverse 5 and reverse 6 because it looked like a
continuation of each other, that obverse 5 to show the
little girl and her grandfather's cap was amazing and
the little boy, and then United States of America.

You

know, the American Legion, the flag means a lot to us.
Since it had the flag -Now, you talked a lot about dot, dot, dot.

Is

there an opportunity to take to remove the dot, dot,
dot from each of there?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

Sure.

MS. JONES:

Yeah.

Remove the dot, dot, dot and I

think that coin says a lot on both sides.
MEMBER TUCKER:

But then on the reverse, that

doesn't make sense.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

Remove them from both

sides.
MEMBER TUCKER:

To have the statement of the

United States of America --

97
MR. HARRIGAL:
MS. JONES:

So remove it from both sides.
From both sides --

MEMBER TUCKER:

But what I'm saying is if you

remove the ellipses from the reverse -UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

You remove the

ellipses -MEMBER TUCKER:
as a standalone.

-- then it doesn't make sense

You know, if you're looking only at

the reverse.
(Simultaneous speaking.)
MEMBER TUCKER:

Oh, yes, of course.

Yes,

these would be a combination, I understand that.
MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
you?

Is it -- can I ask

Is it important for this particular reverse if

we -- oh, sorry -- if we have the emblem on other
coins, on another -- of the series, is it important to
have the emblem on that reverse?
Because it, to me, looks like it's going to
become so tiny, you know.

Will it be readable?

Will

we know that that is the emblem of the American Legion?
If we need it, then perhaps we could pull the flag down
a little bit and make that emblem larger.

98
MS. JONES:

Right.

It's important to us to

see the American Legion emblem.

When we look at our

gold coin, we took two sides that don't
necessarily -- or don't have the American Legion
emblem.
We have four of the sides to show the American
Legion emblem.

I think your idea to pull the flag down

a little bit to show the emblem, it's important for us
(indiscernible) to be there.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you.

I think if we chose

this obverse, then it's important to have that reverse
complement it because you're still using a child's
vision or view of the flag.
MEMBER TUCKER:
CHAIR LANNIN:
MEMBER TUCKER:

May I comment further on this?
Certainly.
Not to get too much into doing

the work of the artist and changing these designs a
lot, but it might help on the reverse if we use this
obverse/reverse combination to actually strike the
words, of the United States of America completely and
let the flag say that rather than the words.

And that

would give us more space, maybe, to increase the

99
prominence of the emblem.
MEMBER JANSEN:

(Indiscernible), definitely,

the United States of America.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

And potentially, in the

obverse, just, I pledge allegiance.
MEMBER TUCKER:

Well, Bob just printed out

that we need, the United States of America.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
reverse somewhere.

Well, there has to be a

The balance of the design goes away

if you take that off.

It's an overbearing negative

space.
MEMBER TUCKER:

Well, right now, the half-

dollar is given the greatest weight.

Why is that?

I

mean is the denomination of this coin the most
important element of the concept?

I don't think so.

I

would -- and Ron, you would've had to -- you and the
artist would have to play around with this.
But incorporating United States of America
more as a traditional numismatic legend rather than
part of the design that's -- that's read as part of the
design.

Just put half-dollar, E pluribus unum and

United States of America, position those as you will,

100
and -- and I think that will work better.

Just a

thought.
MS. JONES:

So after looking at the coins

again, I got a phone call from my boss.

We can remove

the emblem over the flag because it is on the cap of
the little girl, on the Legion cap.

So that coin still

has an emblem on it, so that would be -(Simultaneous speaking.)
CHAIR LANNIN:
who need to speak.

Okay.

There are two more of us

Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
information that I needed.

You know, I got the
And we'll be supporting all

those designs.
CHAIR LANNIN:

And I'm going to turn to Tom

next.
MEMBER URAM:

First of all, Verna, thank you

for being here for the process, but most importantly
for serving our country and those that you represent.
MS. JONES:

Thank you, sir.

I'm proud to be

here.
MEMBER URAM:

I'm glad you're here.

When I looked at obverse -- let's go to the

101
silver -- I'm sorry -- gold obverse 3, that is my
favorite design actually of the whole thing.

And the

reason why -- the only thing I think it's missing from
a collector's point of view, for someone who does some
of the exhibiting on this, is I would've loved to have
seen some Morse Code around the edge instead of the
emblem of the -- of your manner.
But I looked that it might more from not the V
nickel, but the 2000- -- to complement (ph) actually
the 2005 -- 1995 $5-gold piece which has the V nickel
and the Morse code on it.
This kind of ties into that many years later.
So from a collector's point of view, it's a nice
complement.

And the fact that the Eiffel Tower is

there represents Paris versus the other war memorials
of France doesn't collide or have any implications.
is what it is.
So I like that one a lot simply because I
thought it really fit into complementing the other
$5-gold piece that we did in 1995.

And I think

the -- as part, I had mentioned the reverse of the
gold, number 4, as Mike had mentioned also there, it

It

102
just fits right, you know.

It says it all.

Those two,

of all the designs, I thought complemented each other
the best.
I'm going to follow along with some of the
other designs that were chosen in the silver.

But what

I want to mention also is that Whitman Publishing is
going to be coming out with a book soon, with In God We
Trust is going to be the title or something similar.
Dennis know more about that.
And it's interesting because Samuel
Chase (sic) -- Solomon Chase (sic), I'm sorry, was the
Secretary of Treasury in 1863, and James Pollock was
the mint director.
And this is going to be the first time that
both mottos are going to appear, because that was a
motto that was considered by Solomon Chase (sic) and
James Pollock for our coins.
And so it's kind of interesting that this has
a very significant tie-in.

Of course, I only mentioned

Whitman Publishing so I can keep my discount.

But

anyhow, I just wanted -- in case a number of you didn't
know, that was certainly one of the -- when you see

103
that book, that was going to be almost -- match the
motto too.

So the Legion has a lot of history.

It

goes way back.
I will follow that with the recommendations of
the committee for the silver obverse 5 and the reverse
11.

As was mentioned earlier, we don't want to have

too many -- I mean I think that's very, very gothic and
very strong-looking.

I think it demonstrates the

strength.
And I think as you tell the story from the $5
to the silver dollar, to the half, everything is going
to flow and represent something just a little bit
different that you could be proud of, and that we can
be as well.
And so we that, Madam Chair, I'll conclude.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you.

And thank you very much for your service -MS. JONES:

Thank you.

CHAIR LANNIN:

-- and for appearing here.

I agree with what Tom said.

My only alternate

choice for the gold would be obverse number 5.

And the

reason why I was doing this, you know, we all sit here

104
and we've got size dimension charts in front of us.
And it struck me that if this was the obverse
of the gold, it would mimic the pins that are in the
hats or on the lapels of the people in the American
Legion.
And so that, to me, is a real strong choice.
But pairing it with your reverse number 4, that you
liked.

And as far as silver -- the silver goes, I'm

totally at your mercy with the ones that you've
recommended.

And the clad number 5 and number 6, I

think, are excellent choices to be pair.
This is creating by committee, as you've seen.
It really is a process.

I hope we can do a good job

for you and that you'll be happy with what we've done.
So thank you very much.
All right.

Anybody else have any comments

that they'd like to make?
MEMBER HOGE:

Robert?

With our preferences here, on

the reverse on the silver piece, if we selected design
number 11, we do have to remember that we may be losing
an opportunity because we're showing the logo of the
American Legion then at both sides of that coin, since

105
it's on the flag and also the principal symbol in the
obverse, so -CHAIR LANNIN:
MEMBER HOGE:

So we have silver -Obverse -- for silver

preferences were obverse 5 and reverse (indiscernible).
Reverse 11 shows the flag with the same symbol, and
that is the main design on the obverse.
(Simultaneous speaking.)
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

The problem, I think,

on the reverse is much more -UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

It's subtle.

(Simultaneous speaking.)
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

It's part of the flag.

(Simultaneous speaking.)
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

By selecting that

design -- this opportunity to include in some other -CHAIR LANNIN:

Erik, would you like to weigh

in on this?
MEMBER JANSEN:

Well, yeah, can we can a

reverse 11, the silver reverse 11 up there?

There we

go.
The question I was going to raise -- and I

106
know the discussion on the table right now is the
duplication of the medallion of the obverse and the
reverse.

I don't want to cut short that discussion.

I

have something else to say.
CHAIR LANNIN:
MEMBER JANSEN:
is an artifact.

Okay.
The 12 o'clock position here

I think it's intended for the artist's

description to be reminiscent of the Arc de
Triomphe; is that right?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
MEMBER JANSEN:
it.

Yeah.

I think it's -- I don't get

And I'm questioning the value and I don't want to

screw up artistic bounds, but I also don't want to have
an object that's there in absentia.

I mean I don't get

it.
MEMBER TUCKER:

It's given a lot of weight,

and that's something I noticed as well.
MEMBER JANSEN:

Yeah.

MEMBER TUCKER:

I chopped it up to artistic

liberty.

Maybe just make it a little bit smaller?

MEMBER JANSEN:
don't get it.

Where is the Arc?

I mean I

107
MEMBER TUCKER:

It's ornamental, it's

decorative.
MEMBER JANSEN:

Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

What part of that arc

is it?
MEMBER JANSEN:

I mean it almost looks like a

booth in a restaurant.

I'm not sure what it is.

(Simultaneous speaking.)
MEMBER JANSEN:
presence, guys.

I'm just questioning its

We're kind of dissecting these images

and I don't want to do design by committee.

But at the

same time, it's a very strong, maybe less strong once
it's struck in metal, but it's certainly a very strong
optical piece, of optical gravity here.

And your eye

goes there and then you go, why am I here?
CHAIR LANNIN:

That's all.

So essentially, you don't

object to the logo as it were on the flag; it's just
the keystone of the arch?
MEMBER JANSEN:

Yeah, I'm on board here with

this process we did that Donald kind of walked us
through.

And thank you very much for embracing change

because I think we've gotten some place.

I think we're

108
just buffing up the final details here and I just don't
want to walk out the door without finishing the job.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Any further comments?

MS. WASTWEET:

Can I ask the liaison a

follow-up?

Heidi?

Silver obverse 8, can you me your feedback

on -MS. JONES:

So, you know, I'm glad you asked

me about that one because a lot of people ask me.

They

said, well, you know, there's an African-American woman
there, the younger, older.
is so large.

But again, our organization

I think that sometimes people look

at -- somebody will look at that and feel offended.
I'm going to be very honest with you.

I don't

like that because when you look at it, people just say,
you know, honestly, they're making a mockery of -- of
some people.
If you look at the African-American woman,
there are some features that we have.
thick.

Her nose is very

Her hair is very coarse on the sides.

Those

are things that are not always very flattering or
complementary to us as African-American women.
And I know that the artist probably put the

109
hair there to -- because that's what our hair looks
like sometimes.

But I think that it could be

borderline offensive if you we put it there.
I get the whole concept of the older gentleman
and the younger woman and how the American Legion
has -- how we've changed and how we transitioned.

And

we're an organization, you know, a hundred years old
and we're looking for newer and younger members.
And we want to show that we have people from
all walks of life and all ages in the American Legion.
But again, I think when we look at people on those
coins, that someone is going to feel left out, that
someone is going to feel offended.

And I know we can't

please everyone.
But just overall, I think the people
just -- you know, it falls flat for me, just
personally.

You show the black woman and an older,

what appears to be white male, it doesn't say a lot
about the American Legion.

I think it just opens up

too much criticism -CHAIR LANNIN:

Ms. Jones, can I ask you what

your thoughts are on silver obverse 9?

And the reason

110
why I ask is it is the hundredth anniversary and they
show that is says 1919, 2019, and it shows the poppies
in the front.

You know, so that would be the history

part of the American Legion.
MS. JONES:

So, you know, we looked at this

one a lot when we got the first designs.

I think if I

have a concern is how closely the things look.
CHAIR LANNIN:

You mean the soldier on the

right?
(Simultaneous speaking.)
MS. JONES:

Both of them.

I think if there

could be something done to make the lines cleaner,
just -- they don't look human.

The concept is amazing.

And the weapon is not that time period there.
This one has a lot of different things on this
particular coin that we thought could be open for
criticism.

It just doesn't match -- some of the stuff

on the uniform wasn't correct -CHAIR LANNIN:

Well, we would make sure that

all of that would conform to the time period.
sort of asking about the general idea of it.
MS. JONES:

It's not my favorite.

I'm just

111
CHAIR LANNIN:
MS. JONES:

Okay.

All right.

Fair enough.

I would like to go back to see the

silver reverse number 11.

And I agree with you, I

thought this part on the top was the back of the
silver.
that?

I absolutely agree, I asked my boss, what is

And we -- we looked it up.

But what if we

replaced that with the fleur de lis on that on there.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

That actually would be

nice.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

That would be perfect.

I love that.
MS. JONES:

It was all my idea.

(Simultaneous speaking.)
MS. JONES:

My boss did not text me.

(Simultaneous speaking.)
MS. JONES:

That would be beautiful there.

CHAIR LANNIN:

All right.

I will make a

motion that we replace the keystone element on the
silver reverse number 11 with the fleur de lis.
(Simultaneous speaking.)
CHAIR LANNIN:
clad?

Okay.

So anything else for

112
MS. WASTWEET:

My only main concern is I don't

want to have a coin that looks like two obverses back
to back, I mean, yeah, two reverses back to back.

So

once the votes come in, let's have a discussion about
pairing them and see if do we have a double reverse
coin here or do we have an obverse and a reverse.
That's it.
CHAIR LANNIN:
MEMBER JANSEN:
CHAIR LANNIN:
MEMBER JANSEN:

Okay.
Question.
Sure.
We seem to have lost the merit

column on these voting sheets.
CHAIR LANNIN:

It's okay.

MS. STAFFORD:

I'll put a check mark there.

MEMBER JANSEN:

I understand.

Just maybe in

future, we can look at reincluding that.
MS. STAFFORD:

Sure.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

(Simultaneous speaking.)
CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

So we can continue

voting and turning everything in.

I'd like us to vote

before we recess for lunch if that's possible.

113
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

Guys, just a note, it's

very subtle as to the silver, and the clad, and the
gold on these voting sheets.
otherwise.

They look very similar

Just be careful that you're voting on the

one you intend on voting on.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

ten-minute recess.

We're going to take a

Be back five minutes to 12.

(OFF THE RECORD)
(ON THE RECORD)
CHAIR LANNIN:

That is my signal.

We can all

sit down and we're going to have results read to us by
Greg Weinman.
MR. WEINMAN:

Okay.

We'll let all votes in,

starting with the gold obverse design 1.

We have 5

votes.
2, we had zero.
Design 3 had 21 votes, which is the highest
vote total.
Gold obverse 4, we have one vote.
Gold obverse 5 had six.
Gold obverse 6 had zero.
Gold obverse 7 had zero.

114
Obverse 8 had one.
Gold obverse 9 had one.
Gold obverse 10, we had four.
Gold obverse 11 had one.
Gold obverse 12 had two.
For gold reverse, reverse 1, zero votes.
Reverse 2, zero votes.
Reverse 3, one vote.
Reverse 4, 22 votes which is the high vote
count.
Reverse 5, three votes.
Reverse 6, zero votes.
Reverse 7, three votes.
Reverse 8, zero votes.
Reverse 9, zero votes.
Reverse 10, one vote.
For silver, silver obverse, obverse 2, we have
zero votes.
Obverse 3, we have one vote.
Obverse 4A and 4B both had zero votes.
Obverse 4C had zero votes as well.
Obverse 5 had 26 votes which is the high vote-

115
getter.
Obverse 6 had two votes.
7 had zero votes.
8 had five votes.
9 had two votes.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

Excuse me, Greg.

Can

you go back to 6, start again?
MR. WEINMAN:

Yes.

Silver obverse 6 had two

votes.
Silver obverse 7 had zero votes.
Silver obverse 8 had five votes.
Silver obverse 9 had two votes.
Silver obverse 10 had three votes.
Silver obverse 11 had zero votes.
Silver obverse 12 had two votes.
And silver obverse 13 had zero votes.
Moving on to silver reverse, reverse 1, zero
votes.
Reverse 2, zero votes.
Reverse 3, zero votes.
Reverse 4, one vote.
Reverse 5, zero votes.

116
Reverse 6, one vote.
Reverse 7, five votes.
Reverse 8, zero votes.
Reverse 9, two votes.
Reverse 10, zero votes.
Reverse 11, 24 votes, which is the high vote
count.
Moving on to clad.

Clad obverse 1, zero

votes.
Obverse 2, zero votes.
Obverse 3, three votes.
Obverse 4, two votes.
Obverse 5, 25 votes, which is the high vote
count.
Obverse 6, zero votes.
Obverse 7, zero votes.
Moving on to clad reverse, reverse 1, zero
votes.
Reverse 2, zero votes.
Reverse 3, zero votes.
Reverse 4, three votes.
Reverse 5A and 5B, both zero votes.

117
Reverse 6, 24 votes which is the high vote
count.
Reverse 7, 8, and 9 all have zero votes.
CHAIR LANNIN:
Congratulations.

Thank you very much.
I hope that everything is pleasing.

Do we have anyone that would like to make a
motion about any of the -MEMBER SCARINCI:
CHAIR LANNIN:

We have to clean these up.

Okay.

MEMBER SCARINCI:

So on the reverse, let's

start with the clad reverse 6.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

MEMBER SCARINCI:

We'll make a motion

to -- we're making a motion to -MR. HARRIGAL:

Turn your mic on.

MEMBER SCARINCI:

On the clad reverse 6, we're

making a motion to remove the dot, dot, dot on the
obverse and to remove the dot, dot, dot on the reverse,
right?
motions?

Is that what we're probably -- do one or two
Whatever the chair wants.

(Simultaneous speaking.)
CHAIR LANNIN:

Remove the dots on the obverse

118
and reverse?
MEMBER SCARINCI:

Remove the dots on the

obverse and the reverse.
MEMBER JANSEN:

I think we need to remove a

couple of words as well maybe.
MEMBER SCARINCI:

On the obverse --

So let's do the first one to

remove the dots on the obverse and the reverse to keep
it simple.
MS. WASTWEET:

Yeah.

MEMBER SCARINCI:
MEMBER JANSEN:

Motion.

Second.

Well --

MEMBER SCARINCI:

No?

MS. WASTWEET:

The dot, dot, dot after flag?

CHAIR LANNIN:

Is there any discussion

about -UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

Is there a second?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

Second.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

So remove dots.

MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Can you repeat the

motion, please?
MEMBER SCARINCI:

To remove the -- the motion

is to remove the dots here on the obverse, the ellipses

119
on the obverse and the ellipses on the reverse.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Any discussion about that?

MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I believe if we

remove the ellipses on the obverse, it seem -- it does
seem to continue the flow to the reverse and I don't
know if we need the dots on the reverse.

So I don't

think I would amend that.
CHAIR LANNIN:

So you would keep the dots on

the obverse but just remove them on the reverse?
MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
CHAIR LANNIN:

Yeah.

Any other discussion on that?

MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Because I think it

would read better.
MEMBER JANSEN:

I would think we might want to

amend it so the obverse is just, I pledge allegiance.
And the reverse is just, the United States of America.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:

Or, to the flag.
Who is the maker of the motion?

MEMBER SCARINCI:
MR. WEINMAN:

Me.

Donald?

Please, direct any

changes to Donald who can then either accept or affirm
the amendment or reject.

120
MEMBER JANSEN:

It's directed to Donald.

MEMBER SCARINCI:

Why don't we do them

as -- why don't we do them as separate motions.

You

know, the first one is to remove the ellipses on the
obverse and the reverse.

You know, the second one

could be to remove them -- because there are three
different things we want to do, right?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

Yeah, I think another

friendly amendment.
MEMBER SCARINCI:

How about we do this?

Remove the -- a motion just to remove the ellipses on
the obverse, first.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

It was silver reverse

11.
MEMBER SCARINCI:

No, we're talking about

gold -CHAIR LANNIN:

This clad.

MEMBER SCARINCI:

We're talking about the clad

one first, clad reverse 6.

So let's do them one at a

time.
CHAIR LANNIN:

All right.

The first motion is

just to remove the dots on clad obverse 5 and on clad

121
reverse 6.
MEMBER SCARINCI:
CHAIR LANNIN:

No, just --

Just -- is that what you just

said?
MEMBER SCARINCI:

No, no.

Just to remove the

dots on clad obverse 5.
CHAIR LANNIN:
MEMBER URAM:

Okay.

That's the first motion.

Second.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
CHAIR LANNIN:

Second.

And Tom, again, seconded it.

All in favor of the motion?
IN UNISON:

Aye.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Can you raise your hand so I

can count?
MEMBER TUCKER:

I vote procedural

(indiscernible) because I don't understand if this
motion will be to our formal recommendation to the
Secretary.
MR. WEINMAN:
have the vote.

Yes, procedurally speaking, you

We'll report out what the vote was, and

so we always report out what the vote is.

But the

committee can make motions to go along with that.

122
That'll be included in the letter to the Secretary.

So

in addition, to this vote, we recommend the following:
motions made, it was -- it was discussed, it was
passed.
MEMBER TUCKER:

So if there's a second -- if

there's a totally different motion to strike the words,
of the United States of America, as we discussed -MR. WEINMAN:

That's why sometimes the best

thing to do here is for the maker of the motion to
entertain friendly amendments and come up with
something more uniformed that you can vote on so that
it's not quite so disjointed.
MEMBER SCARINCI:

Well, what do we want -- I

mean what do we want to do?

I mean you want to -- you

want an obverse/reverse that -- would you like to keep
the -- you want to get rid of the dot -- we all kind of
agree to get rid of the dots on the obverse, right?
And then on the reverse, some of us don't
agree to get rid of the dots, but we do want to get rid
of, what?
MEMBER TUCKER:

Well, my friendly amendment

would be to actually strike all of that wording, of the

123
United States of America, and let the flag itself
symbolically represent the words.
MEMBER SCARINCI:

But then you have to insert,

United States of America -MEMBER TUCKER:

Yes, yes, and modify the size

of the words in the half-dollar and the positioning and
size of the words, United States of America.
MS. WASTWEET:

That's too much.

CHAIR LANNIN:

That's too much.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
MEMBER SCARINCI:

It's too much.

And that's a material change

to the artist's conception.

I think what the artist

was trying to do here was have the unity of the obverse
and the reverse with the Pledge of Allegiance.
MEMBER JANSEN:
Boys Town.

Similar to what we did on the

Remember how that the --

CHAIR LANNIN:

I think that we all grew up

saying the Pledge of Allegiance, and I think it's kind
of burned into our brains that -- that completes the
sentence.
I don't care one way or the other whether we
get rid of the ellipses or not.

But I do think that we

124
need to keep, of the United States of America, because
that's the logical conclusion of what's on the obverse.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

You want a period

after -UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

The flag is one --

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: -- so that it stops?
MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I just want to say

this to you, Donald, as a friendly amendment.
MEMBER SCARINCI:

Yes.

MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Okay.

might solve a lot of problems.

I think it

We take out the

ellipses -CHAIR LANNIN:

Turn on your microphone,

Jeanne, so that -MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Oh, I just can't

speak to Donald?
CHAIR LANNIN:

No.

MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Okay, as a friendly

amendment, on the reverse -- I mean obverse, can we go
back to the obverse, please?
allegiance?

Can we just say, I pledge

Do we have to say, of the flag?

have to say that?

Do we

125
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

Oh, yeah.

What are you

alleging to?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

The flag's picture.

MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
the reverse.

The flag says it on

That would be my piece to say that, I

pledge allegiance, turn it over, United States of
America.

We don't have to say everything.

Then we get rid of the dots and we get -- we
got a little bit more space so that that flag can be
brought down a little bit and the emblem enlarged.
And that way, we honor the artist who proposed
this and keep his design or her design as much intact
as we can.

That's my -- a friendly amendment.

You can

do what you like.
(Simultaneous speaking.)
MEMBER SCARINCI:

What does the seller of the

coin -- what would the seller of this coin like to see?
MS. JONES:

I think the words are going to be,

I pledge allegiance to the flag is important -- to the
United States of America.

I think that the dots on the

front, they look -- on the front, signifies there's
something more to come on the back.

126
I'd remove them from the back and the rest of
it stays the same, with the exception of removing the
American Legion emblem.
MEMBER SCARINCI:

So you would -- so you would

keep the dots on the obverse, remove the dots on the
reverse, the ellipses, and remove the emblem on the
reverses?

Got you.

That's my motion.

(Simultaneous speaking.)
MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

You don't propose to

make the emblem a little bigger on the reverse?
MS. JONES:

I think what we talked about to

take it off -MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Take it off totally,

okay, thank you.
(Simultaneous speaking.)
MS. WASTWEET:

Keep in mind that the emblem on

the hat, when it gets made, you won't be able to really
see it.
MS. JONES:

Oh, we won't be able to see it?

MS. WASTWEET:

Not really, no.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
size.

No.

It's a half-dollar

127
MS. WASTWEET:

I recommend you keep it on the

reverse, personally.
MS. JONES:

Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

I agree.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

I would make the same

recommendation.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
CHAIR LANNIN:

Oh, good idea, Don.

I would like you to completely

restate the amendment for the record so that we can
motion, so that we can vote on one thing.
MEMBER SCARINCI:

Okay.

The motion is to

remove the dots on the reverse, and that's it.

That's

the only change.
MEMBER JANSEN:

No change to the obverse?

MEMBER SCARINCI:
Just remove the dots.

No change to the obverse.
Remove the ellipses on the

reverse and of course, re-center, of the -MEMBER TUCKER:
or suggestions.

I have two friendly amendments

The first was that we have a precedent

for -- well, first of all, I would say as a regular
editor, it doesn't make sense to remove the ellipses on
the reverse if we have them on the obverse.

128
MR. WEINMAN:

Anybody on the phone, please

mute your line.

You're coming through.

MEMBER TUCKER:

The ellipses that we edit, I

pledge allegiance to the flag, tells you that there's
something more coming.

The ellipses at the beginning,

of the United States of America, tells you there's
something came before and is being -- is being
condensed into the ellipses.

So I would recommend that

we do not remove any of the ellipses.
Number two, we have precedent of the Boys Town
coin, which does use the ellipses on the obverse and
reverse.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

That's true.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

You're right.

You're

right about that.
MS. WASTWEET:

To me, if the dots weren't

there, I would read it as the E pluribus unum of the
United States of America.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
MEMBER TUCKER:

Right.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

Yes.
Something is missing.
Yes, the ellipses tell

us there's something missing.

If nothing is there --

129
MEMBER SCARINCI:

Okay.

So I'm going to

withdraw the motion completely.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
CHAIR LANNIN:

Good move.

Good move.

MEMBER SCARINCI:

Okay.

And let's just keep this one

as it is.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Is there any other motion for

the clad?
(No audible response.)
CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

Moving on to the silver,

do we have any motions, any discussion for the
discussion on the silver, number 5 and number 11, the
obverse 5, reverse 11?
MEMBER JANSEN:

I would -- I'd be interested

in the committee's -- I'd be interested in the
committee's interest in an amendment to -- on silver
reverse 11, to remove the symbol which has been
attributed to the Arc de Triomphe that I just don't
get.

I'd just be interested in the appetite of the

committee to take a look at something like that.
MS. WASTWEET:

I think we all like that idea

of putting the fleur de lis there instead.

130
CHAIR LANNIN:

Yeah, I agree.

MS. WASTWEET:

I can go for that --

CHAIR LANNIN:

Make a motion, someone.

MEMBER SCARINCI:

Heidi's motion to

replace -- Heidi's making a motion -MEMBER JANSEN:

With all due respect, I don't

believe you're of counsel.
MEMBER SCARINCI:

-- to replace the headrest

with a fleur de like I said.
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you, to my assistant,

Done Scarinci.
MEMBER JANSEN:

Would my counsel please

represent my second?
CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

All in favor -- any

discussion on that?
(No audible response.)
CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

All in favor of the

motion that was made by Heidi -MS. WASTWEET:

And Heidi alone.

CHAIR LANNIN:

-- and seconded by Erik to

replace the keystone of the Arc de Triomphe with the
fleur de lis, raise your hand and say, aye.

131
IN UNISON:

Aye.

CHAIR LANNIN:
MEMBER URAM:

Unanimous.
Heidi, that was billable.

MEMBER SCARINCI:

That was billable.

(Simultaneous speaking.)
CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

Let's move on to gold.

Do we have any amendments for obverse 3 and reverse 4?
(No audible response.)
CHAIR LANNIN:

Zero.

Ladies and gentlemen,

thank you for all of your input.

And we're going to

recess for lunch.
(Whereupon, a break was taken at 12:25 p.m.)

A F T E R N O O N

S E S S I O N

Discussion of Concepts/Themes for Native American
$1 Coin Program (2021+)
CHAIR LANNIN:

All right.

It is 1:39 p.m.

132
We're a little bit -Herman Viola, are you on the phone?

Herman?

(No audible response.)
MEMBER VIOLA:
IN UNISON:

Can you hear me?

Hey.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Welcome.

All right.

We have a

form, right?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
CHAIR LANNIN:

You have a form.

I have a form.

All right.

The

next and final order of business of the committee is
the theme and concept discussion for the 2001 through
2024 Native American $1 coin.
MS. STAFFORD:

April?

Just before -- before I read

the background, just for clarity, we have four themes
that we're going to introduce to you to cover the next
four years of Native American dollar coin issuances.
These themes were developed in consort with
our National Museum of the American Indian colleagues,
as well as vetted by sub-stakeholders from Capitol
Hill.
So today, we're here to share with this
committee in the hopes that you can provide the artists

133
some thoughts and things that they should consider
about these themes as they move forward with them in
design development.
So Public Law 110-82, the Native American
Dollar Coin Act, requires the Secretary of the Treasury
to mint an issue of dollar coins in honor of Native
Americans and the important contributions made by
Indian Tribes and individual Native Americans to the
development and history of the United States.
The act mandates a reverse design for these
coins with an image emblematic of an important Native
American or Native American contribution each year.
There is no longer a requirement as there was through
2016 to release these coins in chronological order of
the contributions.
We're here today to discuss the following
themes and concepts which, for the established process,
were initially developed by the National Museum of the
American Indian and then vetted by our legislated
consultants, including the Senate Committee on Indian
Affairs, the Congressional Native American Caucus of
the House of Representatives, and the National Congress

134
of the American Indian.
Of course, wherever applicable, the mint also
reaches out to the tribes and/or family members or
other subject matter experts to provide an opportunity
for their input prior to launching the artist in their
development.
The mint is presently planning on developing
designs simultaneously for the first two themes that
you'll hear about today.

They are American Indians and

the U.S. Military Service and Ely Samuel Parker to be
reviewed later this year.
But of course, we would like your comments on
all of the themes.

I just wanted to note that the

first two will actually be developed and you will see
those portfolios later this year.
So the first theme which is proposed for 2021
is American Indians in the U.S. Military Service.
American Indians have served in the Armed Forces of the
United States in each of our nation's conflicts,
beginning with the War of Independence from Great
Britain.
Their valor has been recognized by many

135
decorations, including five medal of honor
during -- medals of honor during World War II.

This

exemplary record of military service continues, of
course, to this day.
Several of our consultants have noted that
American Indians have served in the U.S. Military at a
higher rate in proportion to their population than any
other American ethnic group.
Proposed for 2022, Ely Samuel Parker.

Ely

Samuel Parker mastered English as a youth and served as
a translator and scribe for tribal chiefs in their
struggle to maintain their reservations.
In appreciation, the Iroquois bestowed upon
Parker their greatest honor, naming his Grand Sachem of
the Six Nations, and according to him -- and according
him the name -- a sacred name with the meaning of
keeper of the Western Door of the Iroquois long house.
Parker later served as General Ulysses S.
Grant's military secretary during the Civil War.

In

that capacity, Parker drafted the articles of surrender
when Robert E. Lee met with Grant at Appomattox,
Virginia on the morning of April 9th, 1865.

136
Lee, recognizing Parker as an American Indian,
extended his hand purportedly with the comment, I'm
glad to see one real American here.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
MS. STAFFORD:

That's cool.

Parker accepted Lee's hand,

responding, we're all Americans.
Proposed for 2023, Dr. Charles Alexander
Eastman.

Dr. Charles Alexander Eastman was a

physician, author, orator, and advocate for American
Indians who interpreted Indian life to the mainstream
while recording Indian culture in the many books he
authored.
Eastman worked as a government physician at
the Pine Ridge Reservation and several other jobs
before turning to writing and lecturing.

He and his

wife produced 11 successful books.
He also worked for the International Committee
of the YMCA and the Boys Scouts of America.

He was

honored as the foremost Indian spokesman of his day.
Proposed for 2024, the Indian Citizenship Act.
On June 2nd, 1924, the Indian Citizenship Act was
signed into law, granting United States citizenship to

137
about 125,000 of 300,000 indigenous people in the
United States.
The act notably did not require American
Indians to give up their tribal citizenship to become
U.S. citizens, allowing individual Indian people to
preserve their tribal identity and their right to
communal tribal property.
A main impetus for enacting the law was to
recognize the thousands of Indians who served in the
Armed Forces during World War I.

Not only did the act

give American Indians the right and protections
afforded the citizens of the United States, it added to
the diversity of thought and culture of our nation by
unlocking the doors for Indians to become a part of
America on their own terms.
So Madam Chair, open for discussion?
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you very much.

going to be interesting.

This is

I just wanted to say a couple

of things because I'm fascinated by Dr. Charles
Alexander Eastman.
I'm trying to do a little bit of additional
research of him --

138
MR. WEINMAN:

Whoever is on the phone, once

again, could you please mute your phone?

We're getting

some background.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Or the dog.

I grew up in Minnesota so the Wapheton
Reservation was fairly close to where I grew up.

I

remember, before I moved to California, the experience
that Pine Ridge Indian Reservation with Wounded Knee.
That was 50 years later, after Dr. Eastman -- it's from
the same area.

And so I found that pretty significant

that in another half century, things were still very
difficult for them.

So I'm very interested in Eastman.

The other concern that I had for the American
Indians in U.S. Military is how we can do this
effectively and not look like we're doing code talker.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
CHAIR LANNIN:
MEMBER HOGE:
CHAIR LANNIN:

Right, right.

Thanks, again.
It actually don't bother me.
It doesn't bother you?

I can

hear that -UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
Mary.

It doesn't bother me,

139
CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

All right.

So there's

are just the only things that I had to say about this.
I'm interested in everyone else and their opinions.
Would you like to start, Dennis?
MEMBER TUCKER:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I guess I'm a little reluctant to give any
sort of concrete recommendations for our artists and
rather just let them work their magic and see what they
can come up with here.
I think there's a -- you know, obviously, some
of these themes will translate more into portraits and
others will be a more symbolic approach.
I'm for Upstate New York, so I'm very familiar
with Ely Parker and the Tonawanda (indiscernible) and
whose experience in Civil War and before and after
that.

So I'm really glad to see that he will be

honored in one of these coins.
I actually agree with Mike.

I think there was

a lot of really good work done in the code talker (ph)
metals, and you know, there'll be a challenge for our
artists to portray the broad scope of American Indians'
involvement in U.S. Military Service.

140
But, you know, maybe -- I definitely think
they should look at the code talkers program and see
what’s been done, what works, see what didn't and maybe
then choose some of those successors.
I guess that's the extent of my guidance at
this point.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Dennis.

Robert?
MEMBER HOGE:

Thank you, Mary.

I'd like to thank Dennis for having some of
this information like the website, on Ely Parker.
MEMBER TUCKER:
for a moment.

If I could interrupt you just

I would mention that -- thank you for

mentioning that.

I apologize for interrupting.

But I

know that our artists will have a huge amount of
resources that they can draw.
But back when I lived in Rochester, I worked
on a PBS project called Warrior in Two Worlds.
was a documentary on Ely Parker.

I think you go to

PBS.org/warrior, if I remember correctly.
was about 20 years ago.
pretty solid website.

That

Anyway, that

But I think it's still a
It was good information on his

141
experience.
Sorry to interrupt.
MEMBER HOGE:

Thank you.

No problem.

Thank you.

I think all these are wonderful themes.

We

need to be a little bit careful perhaps in the -- in
proportion to representing American Indians in U.S.
Military Service in emphasizing the disproportionality
of their participations as warriors.
We know that some of Native cultures were
really more like cultures.

I mean that was a big

interest, but for many others, they were very
pacifistic.

So we need to bear that in mind as well.

I think that the Indian Citizenship Act is one
of the best things that we can represent in a coinage
because the whole idea here -- just think about it,
this is at the very time when we were eliminating (ph)
immigration.
We were expanding the population by expanding
citizenship within the country, the people who were
already here, finally after many years of the
(indiscernible).

So this is a pretty great thing.

The two individuals, Dr. Charles Alexander

142
Eastman and Ely Samuel Parker, are wonderful
representatives.
CHAIR LANNIN:

I think this is a fine program.
Thank you.

MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Jeanne?

Thank you, Madam

Chair.
I really don't have too much add to what
Dennis and Bob have said.

But I do think this gives us

an opportunity to honor our Native Americans again.
I'm wanting to ask, is this a new dollar coin
where we have obverse/reverse or do we only have the
one -UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

Just the reverse.

MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

The reverse.

So we

won't -- it's a continuation, so we will still have
Sacagawea.
MR. WEINMAN:

By law.

MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. WEINMAN:

By law.

The image of Sacagawea must

remain on the obverse.
MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Okay.

So given that,

we have a portrait on one side?
MR. WEINMAN:

That's correct.

In fact, the

143
legislation will prohibit us from putting a portrait on
the reverse.
MEMBER STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

On the reverse, so

therefore, we need to look at something iconic from the
tribes.

And we have to suggest to the artist to -- the

intention.

Thank you.

CHAIR LANNIN:

All right.

Before we forget

that Herman is on the phone, I would like to hear from
him.
Herman, it's your turn.
MEMBER VIOLA:

Can you hear me?

CHAIR LANNIN:

Yes, we can hear.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
MEMBER VIOLA:

We can.

Oh, good.

I just want to say

that I am so excited about these coins and the
importance to the Indian Community.
To begin with, the American Indians in
military service, I think you're all aware that we are
now working on a memorial.

It's going to be dedicated

on, you know, Veteran's Day 2020 on the malls (ph) for
American Indian veterans.
And this is profoundly important, especially

144
to the Indian Community.

As you're probably aware,

I’ve been senior adviser the project in the past two
years.

I’ve been going around Indian country, meeting

with Indian veterans, and their families, and, you
know, getting their feeling about the subject.
As you know, if you have four Indians, you
have five opinions -(Simultaneous speaking.)
The 550 tribes and see if they'd agree on a
program of the sort, and they all were just profoundly
affected.
I can't tell you how many times veterans,
they're talking -- you know, we'd meet in a room, they
start crying because they finally -- the American
people realize that we've been their friends and not
their enemies all these years.
And so just pick the five final design ideas
and the finalist will be picked, I think, at the end of
June.

And so your artist should be able to work with

the design for the memoriam and do this coin.
Ely Parker, of course, is profoundly
important.

He was the first Indian to learn the

145
(indiscernible) Bureau of Indian Affairs.

And

he -- the big role he had in the Civil War, the
guide -- he was the one who actually was doing the
writing, drafting the surrender document.

As officers

on Grant's staff said, he had the best handwriting.
And so that's why he got that challenge.
And then, you know, (indiscernible), we
actually thought that we saw this dark-skinned person
coming forward and shake hands, and, you know, Grant is
(indiscernible) wanted to do insulting to him that he
was told -- well, here's an Indian, and he says, oh,
thank God, we've got an Indian, I feel American here.
Of course, the famous statement, we are all Americans.
And of course, Eastman was, again, another
important person in trying to highlighting the Indian
Community at a very critical point in our history.

He

was there at Wounded Knee and that was the last major
conflict, slaughtered all those Indian women and
children, and yet he went on to just turn that into a
positive moment, bringing the Indian culture to the
American people, talked with them, studying under the
Boys Scouts (ph).

And he really was well-honored as a

146
spokesperson.
And of course, the Indian Citizenship Act, it
was World War I that really was the turning point.
Something like 12,000 Indians went to serve the
military.
drafted.

They weren't citizens yet.

They couldn't be

Two tribes actually declared war on Germany

because they were documenting their sovereignty.
But, you know, we had something -- for the
American Expeditionary Force, for example, 1 percent of
the American Expeditionary Force suffered much
fatalities.
why?

But of the Indians, 5 percent were.

And

Because they were willing to go in the forefront

of the fight.

They wanted to prove their loyalty and

their courage.
And so they so impressed their fellow soldiers
that when war ended, somebody that was (indiscernible),
why not can't we make them citizens?

Look at the

contribution they made and it's finally that we
recognize their service.
And of course, to give you an idea, World War
II, if all Americans had volunteered for service at the
rate the Indians did, there would not have been a need

147
for a draft.
So Indians have always been on the forefront
of our Armed Forces.

They still are to this day.

And

so I think you're going to see a great deal of high
regard from the Indian Community for these coins.
Thank you.
CHAIR LANNIN:
Herman.

Wow.

Thank you so much,

That's an awful lot of things to think about

in that.
Erik?
MEMBER JANSEN:

That was terrific.

Thank you.

(Simultaneous speaking.)
MEMBER JANSEN:

Two thoughts that came to my

mind, and I'm not the one to answer them.

But the

questions I would ask of the experts at the Smithsonian
or otherwise would be, is there a contribution in
segments other than here we have one in three-quarters
military, one in literature and kind of cultural drive,
and then the citizenship.
Is there a Native American story within
banking and commerce in this country?

And is there a

Native American story in industrial innovation?

148
MS. STAFFORD:

Thank you.

Yes, we will take

both of those back to the team at NMAI with which we
work and do some more -MEMBER JANSEN:

My guess is there is?

We just

haven't gotten there yet?
MS. STAFFORD:

I'm sure.

We just happen to

land on these four because each of them -- the majority
of them has some kind of synergy into the year in
which -MEMBER JANSEN:

Yeah, my comments are to

reduce the gravity or appropriateness of any of these.
It's merely to bring in some more stuff -MS. STAFFORD:

And we appreciate that, yes.

MEMBER JANSEN:
or whatever.

-- to help market the series

And law, there might be an Indian lawyer

out there.
MR. WEINMAN:

He has the museum.

It'd be

interesting though about this is one, this is a
perpetual program.

There could any number of things.

When the program began, when we first started
doing -- when we first thought of this out, we came up
with the procedure for selecting themes.

NMAI

149
initially gave us, I think it was 21 themes if I’m not
mistaken, as potential themes.
On some level, although we're not beholden to
them, they are slowly moving through that original list
which they thought was significant.
good information to take back.

So I think it's

With this, we may, in

fact, exhausted all themes they originally gave us.
MS. STAFFORD:

I was just looking at Betty who

manages this program for years and years.

I think we

concur up to the point where you said -- we've moved
away from the original list they've had for several -MR. WEINMAN:

No, no, no.

We've not moved

away from the original -MS. STAFFORD:
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. STAFFORD:

We have.
In some level.
These actually are -- aside

from Parker, which was in the original legislation,
these are ones that we find recently.

But the point

still remains, which both of you are making and we
appreciate, that we need to keep the -- all of the
options and opportunities on the boil (ph), so that
when we move through these, we can be ready with some

150
additional.

And I appreciable you expanding out to

make sure we're covering a variety of fronts.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Michael?

MEMBER MORAN:

Just to expand briefly on code

talkers, I know that all of us in this room have gone
through the 25 or 30 that we (indiscernible).
those medals did not get wide distribution.

But

And the

general American public has moved passed World Wars I
and II.

And the code talkers are largely forgotten by

the people that would handle these coins or elect them.
So I don't think you're really going over old
stuff, old material.
is generic.

If you use the code talkers, it

I think you need to get into some of the

early Indians in the military, I find that they were
used against other Native Americans and get into
dangerous ground there.
I think that it's a theme that has a good
value work on it here at the Mint and it's conducive to
doing again.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you.

Heidi, would you

like to add anything to this?
MS. WASTWEET:

I don't think I have anything

151
to add than what's said.
CHAIR LANNIN:
MEMBER URAM:

It's stated already.

Thank you.

Tom?

Thank you, Madam Chair.

And I

will not speak for Don Scarinci.
This series is such a great series.

I use it

a lot for education side of young people, particularly
in our clubs and so forth.

It's better than filling a

penny book for the most part.
It makes a great exhibit too from a learning
point of view.

I'm thinking myself of doing an exhibit

of this sooner or later, but I need some rarity.

So if

you could make a few of -- I need some rarity coins.
You can make them in gold, it'd be a nice complement,
which we've done before.
I lost down on the Goodacre plaster
(indiscernible).

But the Goodacre statue in the big

dollars are something to look for when you're out
there.
As far as what I would recommend to the
artists who are looking at these themes is to look at
the overall theme of the -- of the whole series at this
point and make some differentiation in design, and

152
concept, and style, and the scope of the series.

And

then add your artist preference to it.
I think it's a great continuum of a series
that -- you know, we're looking for educational stuff.
Here's a great one right here.

So I would encourage

our artists to take these themes and relate it to what
already has been done but make it unique to these
topics.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
CHAIR LANNIN:
add.

I just have one more thing to

When we did Sequoia, did you chair the script on

the coin?

And I can remember a decade ago or so, I was

in a museum.

I can't even remember what museum it was.

But it was -- it has a map of the world.
it had little LED lights.

And the lights represented

all the languages in the world.
would slowly go out.

And

And one by one, they

And that was when one of the last

speaker of that language died.
You could actually stand in front of it and
watch what used to be an incredible diversity of
languages being reduced, and reduced, and reduced.

So

I think that when we get to individual tribes, if there

153
is some way to render the name of the person either in
the script or their native language in sort of a way
that we can help preserve something, that would be
really important to all the tribes.
And it's a linking kind of device.

You know,

they don't -- they can't all understand -- it's not one
universal language with sects.

There are -- I think

languages in Alaska -- I don't know -- Erik, correct me
if I'm wrong -- that are related to Finnish languages.
Very odd.

And I don't think it was put there.

There's just such an incredible diversity of
that.

So that would be a good, you know, a partial

theme to make it unite in these series.

And that's all

I have to say.
Does anyone else have any discussion about
this?

Dennis?

MEMBER TUCKER:

I have a question.

Greg,

could you -- I know with the 2018 Jim Thorpe coin, we
have a portrait on the reverse.

Could you talk a

little bit about those kinds of rules?
MR. WEINMAN:

Yes.

Although this legislation

doesn't specify as (indiscernible) and said no head-

154
and-shoulders portrait.

It was that we could have

no -- you couldn't display -- portray somebody on the
reverse that could be mistaken for a two-headed coin.
And so the general rule we have been following
is that so long as the depiction is part of a
larger -- a larger theme, by and large, at least the
torso, for example, or create it in such a way that it
doesn't -- it cannot be mistaken for a two-headed coin
as part of a -- in the case of the Jim Thorpe
depiction, as part of a bit of collage of his life.
And we watched it carefully.
And there have been -- oftentimes, the artist
will come in with initial designs and we'd gone back
and said, this needs to be shifted around, it needs to
be -- you know, the torso needs to be enlarged in some
way or it needs to be reposition in a way so it could
not be mistaken for a two-headed coin.
CHAIR LANNIN:
MEMBER TUCKER:
CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.
Thank you.
Any other discussion?

(No audible response.)
CHAIR LANNIN:

Well, if there's no further

155
business, I move that we adjourn.
Robert's got the second.

Is there a second?

Okay, all in favor of

adjourning, aye.
IN UNISON:

Aye.

CHAIR LANNIN:

The meeting is adjourned.

(Whereupon, the meeting was adjourned at
2:06 p.m.)

156
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O F

N O T A R Y

P U B L I C

I, SAMUEL HONIG, the officer before whom the
foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby certify that
the proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter
reduced to typewriting under my direction; that said
proceedings are a true and accurate record to the best
of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither
counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the
parties to the action in which this was taken; and,
further, that I am not a relative or employee of any
counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor
financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of
this action.

SAMUEL HONIG
Notary Public in and for the
District of Columbia

157
C E R T I F I C A T E

O F

T R A N S C R I B E R

I, CHRISTINE URREGO, do hereby certify that
this transcript was prepared from audio to the best of
my ability.

I am neither counsel for, related to, nor
employed by any of the parties to this action, nor
financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of
this action.

3/19/2018
DATECHRISTINE URREGO