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Meeting March 11, 2020 1 ____________________________________________________ Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting ____________________________________________________ DATE: Wednesday, March 11, 2020 TIME: 9:02 a.m. to 12:04 p.m. LOCATION: U.S. Mint 801 9th Street, NW Washington, DC 20220 REPORTED BY: Felicia A. Newland, CSR www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 2 A P P E A R A N C E S The Mint Staff: Greg Weinman, Esquire CCAC Elizabeth Young, Esquire CCAC Jennifer Warren, Liaison to CCAC April Stafford, Chief Megan Sullivan, Program Manager (phone) Pam Borer, Program Manager (phone) Ron Harrigal, Program Manger (phone) Betty Birdson April Stafford, Chief Roger Vasquez Boneza Hanchock, Program Manager Joe Menna, Mint Chief Engraver (phone) www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 3 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd) **Telephonically** Tom Uram (Chairman) Sam Gill Robert Hoge Dr. Dean Kotlowski Mary Lannin Michael Moran Robin Salmon Jeanne Stevens-Sollman Dennis Tucker Dr. Lawrence Brown Donald Scarinci Brandon Hall (Press) www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 4 P R O C E E D I N G S * * * * * * * * CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: everyone. Good morning I'd like to call back to order the meeting of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee for Wednesday, March 11th. And please -- I'll do roll call and please say present when I call your name. Sam Gill? SAM GILL: Present. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: ROBERT HOGE: Present. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: DEAN KOTLOWSKI: Mary Lannin? Present. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: MICHAEL MORAN: Michael Moran? Present. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: ROBIN SALMON: Dean Kotlowski? Present. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: MARY LANNIN: Robert Hoge? Robin Salmon? Present. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Donald Scarinci? Jeanne Stevens-Sollman? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 5 JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: DENNIS TUCKER: Present. Dennis Tucker? Present. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: And Dr. Larry Brown? GREG WEINMAN: You have a quorum. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: If we have anyone jumping in, we'll follow back up. I'm Tom Uram, the Acting Chair for the -- I mean the Chairman of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee. Welcome back everyone. And today's agenda for the CCAC includes a review and discussion of candidate designs for the Innovation $1 Coin Program. That will be our focus today. Before we continue our proceedings, are there members of the press in attendance on the phone, if you could identify yourself? BRANDON HALL: Yes. It's Brandon Hall with Coin Update in Atlanta, Georgia. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Brandon, welcome www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 6 back. Maggie was on yesterday. Anyone else? Okay. with us. Thanks for being on the call Finally, for the record, I'd like to also acknowledge the following Mint Staff that are participating in today's reconvened public meeting: April Stafford, Chief, Office of Design Management. And then we have our program managers from that office, Megan Sullivan, Boneza Hanchock and Pam Borer. I take it, all three are here today? MEGAN SULLIVAN: Yes. This is Megan, I'm here. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. Perfect. Perfect. Joe Menna, Mint Chief Engraver? JOE MENNA: Present. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Ron Harrigal, Manager of Design and Engraving? RON HARRIGAL: Present. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: And our Liaison www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 7 to the CCAC, Jennifer Warren is with us, as well as counsel to the CCAC, Greg Weinman. GREG WEINMAN: Present. And I'm here with my -- I'm here with my colleague, Liz Young as well. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: well. Welcome. Okay. Mint. Liz Young as I'd like to begin with the Are there any issues that need to be addressed this morning? Okay. If not, let's turn back to the business of the committee. We'll start with April Stafford, Chief of the Mint's Office of Design Management. April will present the candidate designs for the 2021 American Innovation $1 Coin Program. The first portfolio to be considered is the reverse candidate designs for the New Hampshire 2021 American Innovation $1. April. APRIL STAFFORD: Thank you, sir. But first a little background on this program. It is Public Law 115-197, the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 8 American Innovation $1 Coin Act that requires the Secretary of the Treasury to mint and issue $1 coins with a reverse design honoring innovation or innovators from each of the 50 states, the territories, and the District of Columbia. In accordance with the legislation, the United States Mint worked with the governors of the four states being honored in 2021 to develop design concepts for the coins. These concepts have been approved by the Secretary of the Treasury. The Governors were asked to propose from one to three design concepts and artists created designs based on all concepts proposed and subsequently approved by the Secretary. The advisory committees are not obligated to choose a theme and then select a design from that theme; rather they can recommend the design they believe will create the best coin. The states that feel strongly about a particular theme may choose to submit only one theme, others choose to highlight the variety of innovations or innovators tied to their state. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 9 The Mint worked with liaisons and experts from each state in developing the following designs: So for New Hampshire, we have the theme of Ralph Baer, Inventor of the in-home video game system. In 1966, while working in New Hampshire, Ralph Baer began to investigate how to play games on a television. Baer and his team developed the "Brown Box," a prototype for the first multiplayer, multi-program video game system. The Brown Box paved the way for all video game systems that followed. Baer is known as, "The Father of Video Games." The Governor's office of New Hampshire has weighed in and identified a preference. They've identified New Hampshire Design 1 as their preference. Design 1 depicts Ralph Baer holding a brown box controller while demonstrating a game, portrayed by a rectangular box with incused shapes illustrating the ping-pong game that was programmed into the brown box game console. Above the box Ralph Baer's name is shown www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 10 in raised lettering. Design 2 depicts the brown box and the controllers connected with wrapped wires strung in a decorative manner. A banner displayed across the label -- of the box labels the invention: "Ralph Baer's Brown Box" in incused lettering. Design 3 features Ralph Baer's iconic pong game on an incused background meant to symbolize the vast blank field of a TV screen with the words "NEW HAMPSHIRE!" at the top of which mimics early games' 8-bit typography. At the bottom a wooden texture symbolizes "the brown box." Two knobs that are fashioned after the actual knobs on the brown box are located underneath, "United States of America," which was created to look like the labels Ralph Baer used on his original game console. Design 4 depicts a blank incused field which represents the screen of a TV with the three squares of Ralph Baer's handball game. At the top "New Hampshire" is shown in 8-bit typography along with the name "Ralph Baer" in a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 11 font similar to his Odyssey game's font. Design 5 depicts Ralph Baer's brown box game "Handball" on the right side of the coin. The left side features "New Hampshire" and "Player 1" on an incused background. "In Home Video Game System" is encircling the outside of the composition in a text that is meant to pay homage to Ralph Baer's Odyssey game. The design of the coin is also symbolic of an arcade token. Design 6 features the brown box game console in the center, along with the three squares of Ralph Baer's Handball game above the box. Mr. Chairman, that includes New Hampshire's Candidate designs. Would you like to pause for discussion or would you like to go on to Virginia? CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Is this a preference of the group? I think we can just continue on with the other states. APRIL STAFFORD: Very well. Moving on to Virginia. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 The first Meeting March 11, 2020 12 design concept is Barbara Rose Johns. In 1951, Barbara Rose Johns was a junior at an all-black Virginia high school. Across town was a high school opened exclusively to white students. The resources and quality of the facilities of the two schools were unequal. In protest, Johns led her classmates on the nation's first educational walk-out to demand equal conditions for students of color. The strike lasted two weeks, after which two NAACP attorneys assisted the students in filing suit to demand an integrated school system. This case was ultimately consolidated into Brown v. Board of Education. As Johns later described the challenge, "It seemed like reaching for the moon." The Governor's office of Virginia have weighed in on a preference as well and they've identified Virginia Design 1 as their preference. Although, there were some small requests, which I'll review after we go over the design description. Virginia Design 1 shows Barbara Rose www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 13 Johns as an academic graduate holding two textbooks level to each other symbolizing her campaign for equal education opportunities and resources for all regardless of socioeconomic class and race. This design also represents her future role as a librarian. The crescent in the background symbolizes her quote, "It seemed like reaching for the moon." So some comments from the Governor's office was a request to move the crescent since the quote of Ms. Johns is not included, and just take a second look to ensure that her hair reflects how she wore it at the time. Moving on. Design 2 shows Barbara Rose Johns holding a hand-made strike sign while leading other students in a strike at Robert Russa Moton High School in 1951. The umbrella she discards behind her symbolizes the conditions at the high school, where tar paper shacks with leaky roofs meant students had to hold umbrellas over their desks if it rained. Miss Johns' courage was clear as she figuratively exchanged her umbrella www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 14 for a protest sign and boldly convinced her fellow students to protest their school's conditions instead of attending classes. Her actions resulted in her school's situation becoming visible to the nation; she was trading obscurity for dangerous, but important, visibility, symbolized by the change from silhouette to detailed figure. Design 3 depicts a large open book with blank pages, symbolizing the poor facilities and lack of resources that characterized the public schools attended by Barbara Rose Johns and her African-American classmates during the 1940s and 1950s. Resting atop the book is a mortarboard and tassel, a symbol of higher education. As she later described the challenges she and fellow students faced, she would remark, "It seemed like reaching for the moon," the central inscription on this design. Below the book is inscribed, "Barbara Rose Johns – Civil Rights Pioneer." Design 4 is a representation of the first educational walk-out in American History led by Barbara Rose Johns. Johns described the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 15 challenge of leading the walk-out with these words, "It seemed like reaching for the moon." Again, a central inscription on this design. Moving on to Virginia's second design concept, the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel. Opened in 1964 and spanning over 17 miles of open water, the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel connects Southeastern Virginia to the entire Delmarva Peninsula. It is a first-of-its-kind bridge tunnel complex that has been recognized as an engineering marvel of the modern world. It consists of 12 miles of low-level trestle, two one-mile-long tunnels, two bridges, two miles of causeway, and four man-made islands. Virginia Design 5 depicts a view of the Chesapeake Bay Tunnel as a cross section cut away, illustrating the ingenuity involved in constructing it. Design 6 depicts an aerial view of the Thimble Shoal Channel entry to the Chesapeake Bay Tunnel. Design 7 depicts a cross section view www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 16 of the Chesapeake Bay Tunnel. Design 8 depicts a split-view image of the Chesapeake Bay Tunnel, with the top section showing the bridge looking south from Fisherman Island and the bottom depicting a view of one of the tunnels from the driver's point of view. The design underscores how the bridge complex is viewed as a modern-day engineering marvel. Design 9 features a U.S. Naval destroyer from nearby Virginia shipyards passing over an underwater tunnel. These are between two artificial islands with the ventilation buildings and connecting overwater bridge structure on each side. Design 10 depicts an aerial view of North and South Thimble Islands with the sea gull fishing pier jutting out to the side and a destroyer passing between them. That concludes Virginia's candidate designs. Moving on to New York. The first design concept is the Erie Canal. In 1825, New York opened the Erie Canal, a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 17 waterway that opened the way for the Atlantic Seaboard to the North American interior and helped establish New York as a leader in population, industry, and wealth for much of the 19th Century. Construction took eight years and was a significant effort for laborers. Surveyors, engineers, and excavators carved out 363 miles of canal through breaks in mountain ranges. The project had been considered, quote, little short of madness, end quote, but unlocked the western interior for trade and settlement and played a critical role in the development of the state as well as our nation. The Governor's office weighed in from New York and they identified a preference of New York Design 1. New York Design 1 depicts a historical image of commercial barge activity on the Erie Canal during its 19th Century Heyday. The irregular border along the bottom shows how the canal rises 600 feet in elevation from the Hudson River at Albany to the city of Buffalo, with both cities' names being inscribed as well as Erie www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 18 Canal. Design 2 depicts a boy and two mules towing a boat along the Erie Canal with a map of New York State in the background. "New York State Erie Canal Opened 1825" is written across the bottom of the design. Design 3 shows a mule pulling a boat along the Erie Canal. The boat illustrated here was known as a "packet boat" and was used in the early years of the canal for personal transportation before the expanding railroad became a faster mode of travel. The boats were very common during the early years of the Erie Canal. This design shows the boat traveling west, a symbolic salute to the enormous role the Erie Canal played in the opening of the western frontier for trade and immigration. Design 4 shows an early canal packet boat captain at the rudder of his boat crossing the Erie Canal. Design 5 depicts a packet boat being pulled from a city in the east toward the country www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 19 areas to the west. The next design concept is baseball. While the story of Abner Doubleday inventing baseball in New York is more a myth than fact, New York is traditionally considered the epicenter of the baseball world. Alexander J. Cartwright, a bank employee from New York City, is often considered the father of modern baseball after codifying various rules of the game in the 1840s, including the diamond-shaped base pattern and the 90-foot distance between bases. The first major league was established in Manhattan, the first admission fee was charged in New York, and Jackie Robinson was the first African-American player to play Major League baseball when he joined the Brooklyn Dodgers in 1947. New York Designs 6, 7, and 7A represent the game of baseball with an American Eagle flying high over a baseball. In Designs 7 and 7A, "New York" is written on the baseball in bold script lettering. Design 8 features a baseball player www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 20 at bat, a catcher and an umpire on a baseball field as the ball speeds to the plate. Design 9 features a rendering of a baseball player in action with an image of a standard baseball diamond layout behind the player. The additional inscription reads, "New York Rules since the 1840s." Design 10 features early baseball equipment: Caps, bats, a glove and ball, and a copy of the New York rules. The additional inscription reads, "New York Rules since the 1840s." Moving on to the last design concept for New York, the lunar module. The moon landing could not have happened without the lunar module, which was built in Bethpage, New York. It remains the only crewed transport vehicle designed to function solely in the vacuum of space. Designed to land men on the moon and return them safely to the command module, it was never flight tested due to the impossibility of replicating the moon's environment. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 During the Meeting March 11, 2020 21 Apollo Program, a total of 13 lunar modules were built in New York and six made lunar landings. All of them bear a nameplate reading, "Made in Bethpage, New York." Designs 11 and 12 feature the lunar module on the moon with the earth in the background and a flag planted on the surface of the moon. Design 12 also depicts the silhouette of Long Island with a star noting the location of Bethpage. Design 13 depicts the lunar module on the surface of the moon with the earth in the background. Design 14 depicts a lunar module about to touch down on the moon's surface. Designs 15 and 16 depict a lunar lander with the added inscription, "Landed on the moon, built in New York." Design 17 features a lunar module on the surface of the moon with the earth in the distance. And Design 18 features a lunar module at the ascent stage returning to its command module www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 22 on the surface of the moon with the earth in the distance. Moving on to North Carolina, our last state for consideration. The design concept of higher education was submitted. North Carolina has a long tradition of innovation in creating opportunities for higher education for all. The University of North Carolina became the first public university to formally open when it convened classes in 1795. The first class graduated in 1798, making it the only public institution to confer degrees in the 18th Century. Founded in 1865, Shaw University in North Carolina is the oldest historically black institution of higher learning in the south. And less than a year later, it accepted its first female class. As of now there's no Governor's office preference that has been identified. North Carolina Design 1 features a graduation cap with tassel and a diploma sitting on a coastline with a lighthouse in the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 23 background. "Innovation in Higher Education" is written above the graduation cap. Design 2 depicts Minerva, the Roman Goddess of Wisdom, looking onward with quiet confidence and readiness. The owl of Minerva, the classic symbol of knowledge and wisdom, perches atop her shield, donned with a lone pine branch, emblematic of the state tree of North Carolina. Design 3 features the inscription, "Innovation in Higher Education" over a textbook. Corinthian-style columns surround the text and a lamp of knowledge sits on a pedestal above. Design 4 features a stack of three textbooks with, "Innovations in Higher Education" on the spine of the middle book. A lamp of knowledge is perched atop the books and an olive branches curve around the edge of the design. Design 5 features Minerva, the Goddess of Wisdom, holding a lamp of knowledge. On her shield, an African Adinkra representing the continued quest for knowledge is displayed. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 24 This cross-cultural reference was used by the artist to underscore North Carolina's early involvement in higher education for all. Mr. Chairman, that concludes the candidate designs for consideration. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Thank you, April. You can have breakfast now after all that. great. That's Thank you very much. Are there any -- first of all, this whole design and the whole concept of the Innovation $1 series, as someone who puts together exhibits and displays at the end of the program, is going to be a tremendous learning experience and be able to have some really good knowledge here for a lot of different ways to go with this program. So with that, is there any technical questions before we begin our general discussion? And did Dr. Brown or Donald join us yet? DR. BROWN: This is Dr. Brown, I www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 25 joined. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. Thank you, Doctor. Is Donald Scarinci on yet? All right. consideration. Okay. Let us begin our And if we could keep our comments directed towards all the positive aspects of the designs and please focus on those that you like best in order to -- for the relevance of our time. Dean -- Dr. Dean, can we start with you? DEAN KOTLOWSKI: Mr. Chairman. Sure. Thank you, Just a little point, are we just doing the -CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Yes, exactly, we're just going to do New Hampshire. We're just going to do New Hampshire. DEAN KOTLOWSKI: Okay. The last coin design that we considered yesterday was Barbara Bush. And that put into my head a quotation from her husband from 1988, in his inaugural address, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 26 "Thank you, New Hampshire," because I like these designs a lot for New Hampshire. With respect to No. 1, which was the choice of the Governor's office, I think No. 1 is fine. I think it tells the story. Mr. Chairman, to use a phrase you used a little earlier in one of our discussions, I think it's a very warm portrait. You have the inventor and you have the brown box and so forth. go with that. And I can That's wonderful. The ones that really put a smile on my face were No. 3, No. 4, and No. 5. And I think I -- I don't think, I know I like No. 3 the best. I think it's just a stunning design. I'm not sure whether it gets you what you want in terms of the narrative in explaining the significance. But to, again, use a quote from another colleague much earlier in our discussions a few meetings ago, this is a fun coin. think No. 5 is fun as well. And I And No. 4 is very good. I -- I am a little curious as to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 27 why No. 5 seems to be on its side the way it is. And maybe somebody can answer that at some point. I mean, it's a coin, you can flip it any way you want in terms of looking at it. I think No. 2 and No. 6 are just a little less interesting. They're focused more on the -- on the brown box. No. 6 looks a lot like the brown box that's in the Smithsonian. So those are my thoughts, Mr. Chairman. I would be interested to see what everyone else has to say. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. Thank you, Dr. Dean. Robert. ROBERT HOGE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I -- in my opinion, I think No. 1 is probably the most satisfactory of these, perhaps not the most fun indeed. But the others, No. 6, for example, just looks a little strange for a coin design, it just feels somewhat boring. And No. 3, 4, and 5 are actually more interesting, more innovative perhaps, but these www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 28 are basically two dimensional. And I think that that is probably lacking in some way. My preference among those three would be for No. 3. But I think I would probably go with No. 1, although, it would be the State's recommendation, too. It does have the name of Ralph Baer, which I think it's important to designate what's going on here. It shows really what he was doing, he was arranging these things. And the question is what it is, which is explained, the inventor of the first in-home video game. So I think that probably hits all the major points. Thank you. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Robert. All right, Thank you. Mary. MARY LANNIN: Excuse me. I was intrigued, much like Dean and Robert, 3, 4, and 5. I think 3 hits the mark with the woodgrain and the statute of the knobs used to turn it. No. 1, which was the choice of the state, it seems old fashion, of course, we're all old fashion, this was what one www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 29 of the first video games looked like. It does have Ralph Baer's name on it, which carries a lot going forth, and it does say, "Inventor of the first home video game console." I did not care for No. 6, because it was a little -- what is this? a box of something. You know, it's And No. 2, which says pretty much what needs to be said, just -- the design just didn't move me. I guess the question is, who's going to pick up these coins? kid? Is it the young I think No. 3 would work. certainly would work. that says, "Player 1." No. 5 would They'll pick up anything But I guess I would cast my votes first for No. 3 and secondly for No. 1. That's it, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Thank you. Thank you, Mary. Question regarding the circulating of these. I know that there was some discussion on the earlier groups of some of them being circulated. Can anyone at the Mint answer regarding the opportunities that some of these www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 30 would be circulating are or they just going to be available otherwise? GREG WEINMAN: Well, at this point all $1 coins are sold as numismatic items. circulates coins. The Fed And at the moment, the Fed does not need any more coins and so we don't have -- we don't have plans to issue these as circulating coins. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. So that adds another dimension on to how this gets marketed beyond the numismatic world as we look at these considerations. I'm just throwing that out there. Okay. Robin. ROBIN SALMON: grabbed me the most. elements in it. No. 5 is the one that I like the -- all of the I like, "Player 1." it's showing the game. The fact that And that the two fonts also represent the fonts that were used in two of the early games. No. 1, I understand why the Governor's office would prefer that one. It does say exactly what it needs to say, but it's just www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 31 not exciting. I would have to go with No. 5. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. Robin, thank you. Sam. SAM GILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I like No. 1 because it tells a story. All the pieces are there. Ralph Baer. It describes I mean, it shows him, it shows him making his game. And it describes what he did. I just think that's really important because I think some of the other designs don't do that. I would make one suggestion to No. 1, and that is add a date to it, "1966," somewhere because it puts it in context of when that -- when that game was actually invented. Those are my comments. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: good point. Thank you. Okay. That's a Very good. Dennis. DONALD SCARINCI: I'm -- I'm here, this is Donald -CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: You can record www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 32 Donald accordingly. Thank you, Donald. Dennis. DENNIS TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Excuse me real quick. Donald, we are on just the review of the designs and you'll be the last one. It will be for New Hampshire is where we are right now. Dennis, go ahead. DENNIS TUCKER: Thank you again, Mr. Chair. My initial preference was for No. 5. And to answer Dean's question, I believe the design is oriented that way in order to capture the look and feel of the original pong video game, which had a by second line, like a tennis court or a ping-pong table. And then the players would be one on the left and one on the right with the ping-pong ball going back and forth between them. I like the innovation of that unusual perspective of the coin. And I like the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 33 phrasing, "Player 1." I think that will capture -- capture attention. And we also have a bit of explanatory text around the outside into the gaming system in a video game font, which I found appealing. So I -- I think No. 5 is maybe not as painterly as No. 1, but it does have different elements of communicating the theme of the coin. No. 1, I -- as several of my colleagues have said, I can understand the Governor's decision here. It illustrates quite well what is being honored and who is being honored. And it literally spells it out down along the lower arch. So I will give a lot of consideration to both No. 5 and to No. 1. Thank you. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. Dennis. Thank you. Dr. Brown. DR. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I must confess that I prefer Design No. 1 because it seems to capture everything www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 34 about who the designer is. And while I appreciate, again, the great work of the artists, my vote would still be No. 1. Thank you. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. Dr. Brown, thank you. Jeanne. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I agree with my colleagues in that No. 1, the Governor's choice, is understandable. However, in the beginning I -- I thought that might have been the best of the six designs, but going over it and thinking about what our coins represent in that we want -- or at least I want to have a wow factor in the designs that say, you know, U.S. Mint is doing some innovative work. I believe that Design No. 3, 4, and 5 have that power. No. 1 is -- is good, but it's expected. And I think that we need to go beyond expectation. the future. We really need to jump farther into You know, this is what this www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 35 innovative game did, it went far. So I think that No. 3 is -- is very much fun. And No. 5, as Dennis said, it captures the attention of the handler of the -- you know, that you -- you have to look at. And I love the fact that you have sort of the motion of the -- the tennis -- the ping pong ball going back and forth over the net. So my -- my choices are going to be 3 and 5. Thank you, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Thank you, Jeanne. Donald. DONALD SCARINCI: me say this: Well, you know, let The elected officials might like No. 1 because they wouldn't be expected to really know the series of coins. You know, that's not within their -- that's not within their world of view, right. They -- they don't sit there and study coins the way we do. And they certainly wouldn't be expected to know what the other coins in the American Innovation series look like or what we are trying to achieve with this series of coins. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 36 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: And, Donald, are you still on? DONALD SCARINCI: Can you hear me? CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Yeah, we're good, Donald, we're good. DONALD SCARINCI: So -- so, you know, that's just not within their purview. And so if you -- you know, on its face, you know, yeah, this is a plain, simple -- No. 1 is a simplist ordinary coin design. (Uninterrupted noise.) DONALD SCARINCI: That wasn't me. So, you know, I mean, one -- No. 1 is just a boring coin, to be honest with you, and it doesn't -- it doesn't -- and it certainly doesn't go with the rest of the coins in this particular series. The coins in this particular -- what is making this series so incredible is these bold -- you know, these bold, kind of, techno designs. And when -- and -- and this reverse proof thing that the -- that the director and Ron are doing, is really -- really www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 37 pretty awesome. And -- and I was very skeptical about the series, you know, in the very beginning, but this series is turning out to be very artistic and very, you know -- very, you know -- it may be one of our most brilliant series of coins since I've been on the committee. You know, the most creative. It's creative. And -- and in part because of designs like No. 5 in this packet. Not because of same ole, same ole, same ole No. 1. ole, same ole. Right. No. 1, same ole, same We don't want No. 1 for this series. We just don't. It doesn't belong in the series. It'll stand out like a sore thumb. It doesn't belong with these -- with the other coins in the series. And hopefully it isn't going to belong in the series of future coins that we're going to be picking. So I really think, you know -- and it's okay, you know, it's just not -- it's not -it's not the Governor's fault. You know, it's www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 38 expected that somebody who doesn't know the series would pick a coin like that. it just doesn't belong. It just -- So it doesn't fit, it's too boring, I -- I wouldn't -- I don't even want to consider it. I don't want to consider No. 2 and I don't want to consider No. 6. So I -- you know, and -- and so that leaves you No. 3, No. 4, and No. 5. And what Dennis said is right on the money, Dennis -- Dennis -- Dennis hit it on the nail. You know, I can't argue it any better than he did. No. 5 is definitely the coin. sits beautifully. It's going to look great. it's a reverse proof. wow." It And It's going to be, "Oh, No-brainer here, No. 5 is the coin. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Thank you, Donald. MARY LANNIN: Chair, this is Mary. Donald and Dennis have completely convinced me. I'm going to throw all my weight in on that. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Thank you, Mary. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 39 I would agree as well. To resurrect a term that we used in the last beautiful -- America the Beautiful Series, No. 1 is too postmark, right. I mean, it's -- we're getting back to it's a great design, had it been just formal, but the fact is it's also is a (indiscernible) coin and it's not one for the numismatic world. I think No. 5 is going to be the pick here. And the only thing that I would add here is, is there any way, Joe, I'd like to get your thoughts anyhow, above, in small, could we put -- since No. 5 does have what it is, could you put, "Ralph Baer 1966" on either side there? Would it mess up anything there if you did have it say that slightly above the hemisphere there? JOE MENNA: I'm sorry, I was on mute. Tom, I think that would be a challenge. I think it's just very well -- I think all the elements are very well disposed. And I think the addition of any text that would be big enough to read would www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 40 necessarily either need to move the pong game elements into some different configuration where it would look less like the game. And I -- my -- my gut feeling would be to leave it as is, but I totally understand your concern. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: leave it as it is. Okay. We'll Would you like to make any other comments since we're here? JOE MENNA: Sure. I have a couple of comments. I appreciate that. I'm still feeling out what the parameters are, what I can and can't say. I want everyone to understand that I fully recognize that I'm not a member of the committee and I'm not trying to be presumptuous in any way, I'm just being honest. So if I go too far, just stop me. The No. 5 -- my reservations on No. 5, being -- you know, I mean, I've been playing video games since 1975, and I played the next generation version of this -- of this system, and, you know, I had other systems that this gentleman designed later on, and so I -- you www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 41 know, this is a hero of mine. "Player 1" to me automatically evokes Steven Spielberg's film, "Ready Player One" and the book that it was based on. This is a direct commercial connection to the phrase, "Player 1" to something that is very prominent in video game culture and made me a reference to that. In my opinion, I could be wrong. No. 1, I agree totally with Donald, I think it's kind of boring, like it might work on a CDM, or something, where we're illustrating a story of his life on this series. I don't know that it applies. I really like No. 3, because I think that esthetically it shows the game of pong very clearly. It depicts New Hampshire. the video game font. I love I love the label -- you know, the label -- I forget, the label, whatever you call it, of The United States of America as was viewed on the game console itself in different texts. And I think the background versus the -- I think the pong game is very www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 42 illustrated because it has the midline on the tennis court there. And I just think -- I think generations and -- every success of generation of gamer knows what pong is. They love pong. It is the -- it is -- it is the origin of the entire culture. And, I mean, my kid's a gamer, I was a gamer, the kids in between us were gamers, there's going to be gamers in perpetuity going forward. And I think that it really just speaks to the fullness of the classic game play that everyone will know and will provide a really unique opportunity to attract younger collectors that we haven't -- many we've never had before. So that's all I have to say. And I appreciate your time. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. At this point are there any other further questions or comments, otherwise we'll go to scoring? And why don't we take five minutes to -MICHAEL MORAN: Hey, Tom, this is www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 43 Mike. I was in the parking lot. Did you pass over me? CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Got you. Okay. Go ahead. MICHAEL MORAN: going to make it quick. Okay. Well, I'm I'm just going to simply say that the stars are in alignment for a rare time that Donald, Dennis and Mike all agree on No. 5. That's mine. I will say this, to me, these coins are about innovation, not the innovator. I think No. 1 crosses that line a little bit too much for me. And we'll get to that with Virginia, I'm okay with it, but in this case, I'm not. the innovation, it's not the innovator. It's So my votes are going for No. 5. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay, Mike. And we got your directions, we know where you're headed. MICHAEL MORAN: I had to redial in. I'm sorry about that. I lost you when I got in the car. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 44 CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: GREG WEINMAN: No problem. Everybody please vote. And email me or text me your scoring. This is Greg Weinman. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: And let's just say we'll be back at maybe 9:50, a five-minute break. (Recess from 9:46 a.m. to 9:53 a.m.) GREG WEINMAN: Okay. We are back on the record. For New Hampshire: Design No. 1 has 10 votes; Design No. 2 has 0; Design No. 3 has 10 votes; Design No. 4 has 2; Design No. 5 has 28 votes; and Design No. 6 has 0. Thus, the committee's recommendation would be Design No. 5. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. Greg, thank you. GREG WEINMAN: Thank you, sir. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Are there any motions at this time, if not, we'll move on to our next design of Virginia? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 45 Hearing none we'll move on to our design discussions for Commonwealth of Virginia. And we'll start with Dennis Tucker. Dennis. DENNIS TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I actually jotted down some notes as I was looking over this portfolio, notes about the American Innovation Program as a whole. And I'd like to ask the Committee's indulgence if I could just share these thoughts. I expect that over the course of this seven-coin program, there will be many coins that focus on innovation, science, technology, engineering, medicine, and physical inventing. That's what we tend to think of first. And the very first coin in the program actually referred to the U.S. Patent. So for 2019, we had Salk classification, the polio vaccine, invention of the lightbulb, and horticultural (indiscernible). For 2020, I don't think the Secretary has publicized his choices yet, but what the Committee recommended was the Gerber www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 46 Variable Scale, the invention of the telephone, the Hubble Space Telescopes, and set them apart advocating for literacy as part of the Civil Rights Movement. So two years in we're very heavily weighted toward physical inventions and scientific innovation. My recommendation to the Committee is that when we have opportunities to consider other kinds of innovation; cultural, educational, literary, artistic, spiritual, or otherwise, let's give them special weight, or at the very least let's not discount them. And let's keep in mind, too, that all of the themes that have come to us have already been vetted and approved by the Governor's office and by the people of the states involved. Let's look for the stories that have not already been told a million times. We have a unique opportunity with this coinage system -- or this coinage program. Let's look to the unsung American heros who deserve the publicity that a national coin will bring. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 We've Meeting March 11, 2020 47 seen the excitement and the state-wide public interest of Alaska, right, for its Native American Dollar that involves a famous Alaskan Elizabeth Peratrovich. circulating there. Those coins will end up And this is a noncirculating legal-tendered program. So those are just some thoughts that guide me as I look at the themes that are presented within this American Innovation Program. And for those reasons, as important as the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel is, I was drawn to the Barbara Rose Johns designs. And I was pleased to see that the Governor's choice was Virginia 1. It's -- you know, I suppose there's -- the argument might be that this is a typical coin design, it's not innovative in an artistic or design sense, perhaps, but it's certainly innovative in the theme that it portrays. So I am going to give great weight to the choice of the Governor's office, Virginia 1. Thank you, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Dennis, Meeting March 11, 2020 48 Donald. DONALD SCARINCI: Well, you know, I have to disagree with Dennis on this. I -- I think -- I think the -- I think that this coin -- I think that this program, I think the -- I think the intention of this program is -- is very similar to the intention and to the program that South Africa is doing. And the South African program, and this program, is about innovations in technology and about American's contribution to technology and advances in -- you know, in -- in technology. And I -- and, you know, I'm looking through the legislation itself, you know, to -to look for the language, you know, that might give me that. And I'm, you know -- you know, I'm not finding it. finding it. And, Greg, maybe -- maybe you're You know, but I guess if you found it, you would have rejected the designs and not let us see these designs. But if we open the door -- if we -- if we open the door to social innovations, that will be a floodgate -GREG WEINMAN: Donald -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 49 DONALD SCARINCI: -- in a program -- in a program that we -- that we, you know, are talking about -- you know, that we have the opportunity to talk about our technical innovations in each state. That opportunity could potentially be dorphed (sp) by each state trying to outdo the other with its social innovations and -ELIZABETH YOUNG: This is Elizabeth Young, the program attorney for the American Innovation $1 Coin Program. And I just want to clarify that the legislation is silent as to specifying any type of innovation. There's no requirement that the innovation be tech or stem driven. That's really up to interpretation. So to the extent that you all have opinions about that, that's all well and good, but the legislation itself does not require that the innovation be specific to technology. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: And, Donald, may I -- may I stop you for a moment? DONALD SCARINCI: I kind of -- I kind of figure it was silent because you would -- you www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 50 would have rejected these designs and not let us see them if it -- if it -- if it spoke to it. DENNIS TUCKER: Dennis. Donald, this is May I -- may I interrupt for one moment? DONALD SCARINCI: DENNIS TUCKER: Yeah, of course. Because I wanted to address your specific question. I think you're setting all -- you're setting up the false duality. You're saying that innovation is neither social or it's technological. Let me give you an example and tell me where these two American innovations fall. Braille and American Sign Language, are those social or are they technological? DONALD SCARINCI: They're both, but they celebrate -- but they celebrate the -- but there certainly is a technological achievement that allows for social events. So they're both. DENNIS TUCKER: humanities? Do they evolve as They -- these are social scientists. I think that your creation of two buckets, either social or technological, I think that does a disservice to the vast panorama of American www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 51 innovation. I think it's a mistake to focus purely on technological, scientific, medical, and patentable innovation. innovation than that. There's more to American We're bigger than that. That's big, but we're bigger than that. DONALD SCARINCI: I think -- I think the -- you know, listen, I'm all for social innovation. I mean, I -- you know, I'm not -- I'm not -- I'm not -- I'm all for social innovation, but I'm just not sure that's what we're suppose -I just don't think that's what we're doing with this coin program. And I think if we open this -- I think if we open this door, this is going to become -DENNIS TUCKER: It's not -- DONALD SCARINCI: -- it's going to fall over into -- it's going to fall over to the other states to show that they're more socially innovative than the state and we're going to lose -- and we're going to lose -DENNIS TUCKER: You can say the same thing about technology, you can say that they would www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 52 fall over themselves to see who's the most technologically innovative. DONALD SCARINCI: what we want to do. Yeah. Yeah, that's We want to show -- we want to show -- we want to show the world, you know, the greatest of our -- of our -- of our technological innovations. Look at what little South Africa is doing with that coin program. they're doing. It's amazing what They're showing the world what that little tiny, crazy little country has done in technology. And they're a -- (Crosstalk.) DONALD SCARINCI: -- and a little tiny coin program. GREG WEINMAN: I'll remind you all that this is being transcribed. over each other. speak. meeting. Please don't speak And identify yourself when you This is very difficult on a telephonic Thank you. DENNIS TUCKER: This has been Dennis and Donald going back and forth. This is Dennis. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 53 DONALD SCARINCI: I think there's a place -- I think there's a place for -- for our social innovations to be. And certainly, you know, a lot to be proud of and a lot to be -- and a lot to be ashamed about, honestly, and a lot to be -and a lot to be -- and a lot to be commemorated and a lot to be taken to task for, you know. But -- but -- you know, but -- but this program, in my mind, you know -- you know, from the very beginning, you know, with our discussion and our -and our -- and our focus on the years, you know, and on patents and on, you know -- on -- and, you know, the whole emphasis of the program was on patents and on technical innovations. I mean, you know, leading -- leading right up to -- to putting the man on the moon, you know, and -- and to show the world, you know, that our leadership, you know, in -- you know, to the present day, in computers and technology and, you know, in all of the things that we've done. And it's an opportunity for each state to show what it did and what it -- and -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 54 and be -- and where it led in technology. And -- and -- and, you know, I think that opportunity exists with this program. And I'm not saying that there's not other opportunities in coins to do these other things, you know. And certainly Virginia -- you know, Virginia should be very proud, you know, of -- of -- of what it did. Look, notwithstanding how it got there, right, but -- but -- but it should be -it certainly should be proud of the results. And -- and, you know, but -- but the other coins -- you know, I think it could be done in other coin programs, just not the coin program that began with, you know, a coin about patents and -- and, you know, the creation of patents and the protection of -- of patents and -- and technical innovations. And I think, you know, even if the legislation was silent as to that, I think -- I think the intention is to showcase our technological greatness. And -- and, you know -- and if we -- and, you know, my concern is that www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 55 this won't be a one of. My concern is that Virginia is not going to be a one of. And look at what we're seeing in -in North Carolina. I mean, look at what we're seeing that's submitted in this packet, you know. So it begins. And where does -- and where -- is it going to end? No, it's not going to end. The other states are going to fall over themselves to go with social innovation. And we're going to lose what we really want here, which is to show the world our -- our capabilities in technical innovation. And there's not another program that's going to be like this program to show that. There's going to be plenty of programs that congress is going to pass that are going to show social innovation. Plenty of programs. But there's not going to be another program like this one that's going to allow us to showcase each state's technical innovation. DENNIS TUCKER: Donald -- Donald, this is Dennis again. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 56 DONALD SCARINCI: Wait, wait. Let me just finish. For me, I'm not -- I'm not -- I'm not even going to listen to 1 through 4. want to hear about it. I don't I'm not voting for it. And I'm not voting for anything that's of social innovation in this program. want to know about it. I don't -- I don't I want to vote about -- I want to talk about technical innovation and look -- look at the designs strictly for technical innovation in this program. So that's where I'm coming from. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. Let's focus back on -- thank you, Donald and Dennis. Let's focus back on to what your choices would be for Virgina for innovation. DENNIS TUCKER: For -- for Virginia, I mean, we're faced with two choices in my mind, we're faced with -- you know, we're faced with -you know, we're faced with one choice really, I mean, that's the Chesapeake Bay Bridge. And, you know, looking at the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 57 designs for the bridge, you know, I think -- you know, I think, you know, Designs 5, 6 or 7, you know, are -- are the ones to choose from, you know, most artistically. And probably -- probably No. 5, you know, because of the way the -- the way the bridge is cut and because of the way the -- it goes over the rim, you know, it probably makes the most appealing design. Unless -- unless Joe thinks otherwise, I would probably go with No. 5. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. Donald, thank you. APRIL STAFFORD: Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: APRIL STAFFORD: April Stafford. Yes. Hi. Sorry, this is There's just a few of us, we were talking at headquarters and we thought it would be important to add to the record, not to revisit the topic of the question that Donald and Dennis just discussed thoroughly, but just so that all of the Committee members would know affirmatively that actually the question of social innovation was www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 58 discussed and addressed at the last meeting that the CCAC reviewed the American Innovation designs for 2020. In fact, the innovation for South Carolina that was recommended by the Governor's office as well as the CCAC and the CFA was for Septima Clark, who spearheaded citizenship schools and was the advent of the Civil Rights Movement there, mother of the Civil Rights Movement. And so while there hasn't been an announcement as to what the Secretary has selected, we can confirm that that was, again, the recommendation of the Governor's office for a theme. And it also comported with the recommendations of this Committee and the CFA. So that was for 2020, just for your information. Thank you. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. Thank you, April. Dr. Dean. DEAN KOTLOWSKI: April -- thank you, Mr. Chairman. And, April, thank you very much. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 59 Because that was the first question that I was going to ask about Septima Clark, because I think we've crossed this line. And I am open to innovation whether it's social. I think a lot of the innovations here are specifically tied to social, they're tied heavily to education, at least thus far. So let's see what we get. I'm open to social, educational, technological, medical, whatever. I want to look at the designs of Virginia. I spent some time thinking about them. And I'm going to start out with Barbara Rose Johns. And I didn't care for No. 4. You have a quotation there without quotation marks. have a lot of feet walking and legs. And you And so you've got something on the top about a moon and then you've got these legs at the bottom. And I think it's very integrated together. No. 3 is kind of a standard design. I like the quotation. I like the fact that it was reaching for the moon, which put me in a mind of another kind of innovation, a technological www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 60 innovation of a moonshot, which people would have vaguely been thinking about in the 1950s, maybe not as early as 1951, but it's not an immensely interesting design to say the least. I think that this would work, No. 3, if we were doing a Barbara Rose Johns specific coin where this was the reverse, the explanatory reverse and the off versus had her image on it. No. 1 and No. 2 are what I'm drawn to. And I think No. 1 is the -- is basically the forest and I think No. 2 is the trees. it that way. Let's put I think No. 1, the way it's written gives you a sweep of what's happened in Prince Edward County in 1951. Just briefly, what happened we had students strike. The African-American school was an inferior school, as April was reading. And what they were arguing for initially was essentially an equalized brand-new school within the context of segregation. So that's one form of equal education. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 61 And then it got translated with the help of the NAACP into one of the several class action lawsuits that were part of the Brown decision, which pushed for another kind of equal education and integrated education. So when you had equal education, you see Barbara Johns there. both aspects of this. I think this covers All right. And I believe they're talking about eliminating the crescent moon. Is that correct, Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: I hadn't -- I had not heard anything yet. APRIL STAFFORD: That was a potential suggestion by the Governor's office, given that the quote was not included in the composition. DEAN KOTLOWSKI: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, April. I think that that probably would be a good idea, leave some blank space. But, you know, the moon there, it doesn't make very much sense without the quotation. I really wrestled with No. 2. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I Meeting March 11, 2020 62 wanted to like it. What I did was to read -- my first reaction to this, without reading the notes and not remembering the details of the strike, is what's the deal with the umbrella? on here? What's going And then you read it and you look up and you get what's going on. And that's fine. I think there's going to be a lot of people who are like me at the beginning and they're going to wonder what the deal is with the umbrella. "We want a new school" was actually a sign that she carried. But if you -- and back to what I just said, this sort of stops the story at the fight for a new school within the context of racial segregation. So, Joe, this is where I'm going to turn to you and ask a question. Can we change the sign, the sign that Barbara Rose Johns carries at the Virginia Civil Rights Memorial in Richmond -- which I have not seen personally, I've even it online -- she's carrying a sign that says, "We want an equal education"? And if you put that on this -- if www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 63 this coin -- if this design has any kind of support, that would kind of continue the story in this nebulous, but all-encompassing, idea of quote, unquote, equal education. You might have to make the sign a little bit bigger, "We want an equal education." JOE MENNA: You might have to make the sign a lot bigger. DEAN KOTLOWSKI: JOE MENNA: Yeah. I think we -- we may need to consider putting it somewhere else. It may need to stay the way it, Barbara Rose Johns -- it would be challenging if we change it. I understand what you're saying. DEAN KOTLOWSKI: Yeah. If there's no significant support from the Committee for No. 2, I don't think we have a problem. So I guess within the context of the four designs for Barbara Rose Johns, I would be for No. 1. And then for the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel, if we decide we want to move in that direction, I don't know how many of you have www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 64 traveled on the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel, I have a few times, it scares me, to be honest. And so anything that scares me should be on a coin, I think. And I guess I agree a lot with Don. Although, I like No. 6. eloquent and sleek. And I think 5 is very Maybe 7 a little less so. think 8 gets the job done. I But 5, 6, and 7, and those of the two ship designs, I didn't much care for those. I want to be very respectful to our people who serve in the Armed Services, but we do a lot of -- and I don't want to be anti-military in any sense, but we do a lot of coins of this type. We've been looking at a lot of naval designs. Of the two, I think No. 10 is a little bit better. But, again, you're not really going to be clear from the text what that really is. So, Mr. Chairman, thank you. Those are my comments. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Dr. Dean, thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 65 Sam. SAM GILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, I'm a native Virginian, as most of you know, and I certainly am familiar with both of these depictions. I think that the Barbara Rose Johns coin is extremely important to Virginia. I will say that. It is a social innovation for sure, as Don said. I personally would prefer to stay away from social innovation on these coins because I think of innovation in a technical way, invention way, that kind of thing. But having stated that, I'll just say that No. 1 is my choice for the Barbara Rose Johns side of this. It depicts a sweet girl in good spirits, but obviously brave, took a position, did something that turned out to be a really, really important thing. Moving on to the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel. I agree with Dean, it's -- it's kind of scary to ride on that thing. I've done it many, many times. And it's -- it is a huge -- huge accomplishment. The choices for me there -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 66 I'm not going to go as far as on the -- on the artistic side of things. as you know. I like to tell a story, No. 9 shows what I -- I think of down that way because it's the largest naval base that we have. The Navy goes in and out of that -- over that Chesapeake Bay Tunnel all the time. So when you're down there, you often see that depiction. And then I like No. 8, because it -- it's -- it's just a good rendition, I think, of what the Bay Bridge Tunnel looks like. Those are my comments. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. Sam, thank you. Robert. ROBERT HOGE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My preference probably would be to go with the selection of No. 1. does the job. I think this I -- I don't think it's appropriate for me to really so much address this question of social versus technological www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 67 innovation, whatever its importance, and what the state selects, I think is okay. The bay bridge, the Chesapeake Bay Bridge, is truly, you know, a momentous accomplishment and worthy of celebration. I think, however, though, it certainly doesn't lend itself very well to be detected on a coin design. I would probably select No. 8 as being one that gets the job done the best. It's less confusing than the others and it's a little bit more realistic. Barbara Rose Johns is probably not as well known, certainly not as well known to the general public as she should well be. I think No. 1 conveys the imagine of the idea of equal education for all fairly well. I do agree with the suggestion that was brought up that the so-called crescent moon should be eliminated. Technically that actually is not a crescent moon shown on the piece, it's actually a waiting moon. And although it does allude to her quotation, since that is not cited, I think it's probably www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 68 not really relevant. So in all, I appreciate the difficulties coming up here, but I would -- I would have to select No. 1 for my preference, and give credit to No. 8 the most for the bridge representation. Thank you. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: All right. Robert, thank you. Dr. Brown. DR. BROWN: So listening to the comments from my colleagues, I must say that the discussion of technical versus social has really captivated me. I must confess that from my area of health care, as much as the technological is important, the social has had an equal importance about how we are able to achieve the technological. I am impressed with a lot of the designs by the artists, and I will commend them for doing so, but my vote goes to No. 1. Thank you, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Dr. Brown, Meeting March 11, 2020 69 Jeanne. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. This definitely was one of the more lively discussions that we've had on coins for a while. And I thank Donald and Dennis for their input. I -- I -- I don't really want to get involved with one social versus technology. I am mostly interested in the power of the design, because this is what you're going to -- you know, this is the story in your pocket, this is what you're going to pass to the next person. And looking at -- I like No. 1. I appreciate what the Governor wants to do, and think this is an important piece. I like No. 2 because it gives you a little bit more of the shakeup in what Barbara Rose Johns did. However, I keep going back to No. 5. And No. 5, I'm looking at purely for design, not for social comments versus technology or anything, but the fact that this design, like Donald said, moves out of the circle and it comes www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 70 into the rim. You see the tunnel, which is a difficult achievement that Virginia was able to accomplish. So I like -- I like this design very much as opposed to the other two, No. 6 and No. 7. And so I'm -- I'm -- I'm looking at it in the design perspective. I like No. 1 for what it represents. Those are my comments. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Jeanne. Thank you, I appreciate that breath of fresh air because you were that way with a couple of the other designs, so you might get your turnpike here if it goes -JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I would love one. (Crosstalk.) CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: That's right. Robin. ROBIN SALMON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As important as equal education is, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 71 I cannot ignore the technological advance of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel. And something that is described as a modern-day engineering marvel, I think, needs to be included. I will say one thing about the No. 2 design related to Barbara Rose Johns, the artist may have seen the memorial that's on the state house grounds in Richmond for this particular subject matter where the figures walk out from the central block on all four sides, and this design is reminiscent of that particular monument, which is very beautiful and compelling. I -- I was drawn to No. 5 for the reasons that others have given, that -- the pure design aspect of it, but I'm -- I'm bothered by the fact that it doesn't say "Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel." And I want it to say that. So No. 8 or No. 9 would be my preferred choices with, I think, No. 9 giving more of a picture of what goes on with the Bay Bridge Tunnel, what its significance is. And we certainly can't ignore the fact that military use www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 72 is a major part of the daily activity there. So No. 8 and No. 9 would be my preferred choices. Thank you. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. Robin, thank you. Mary. MARY LANNIN: Thank you. Can you hear me? GREG WEINMAN: Yes. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: MARY LANNIN: Okay. Yes. Because I've been going on and off mute because I've got construction going on here. So one of the things that I look at when we have such a disparity of designs here, or choices I should say, is what -- what does the state have that could be no where else? And for me, it was the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel. For all that Barbara Rose Johns did, she happens to live in Virginia. She could have happened to have lived other places and accomplished the same things because she would www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 73 have been that person. She could have been in a terrible school in another state. But what they've done in Virginia, which they do describe as an engineering marvel, that can't be anywhere else except Virginia. So that's why I want to consider the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel design. I'm with Donald that I like size very much, but I'm also in agreement with Robin that I don't know if it's possible to put "Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel" anywhere. love that it's an engineering marvel. But I And this could be a coin design-like marvel where it keeps going, your mind -- your mind keeps those cars just driving straight ahead. No. 6 has the word "tunnel," but we'll never be able to read it. No. 7 is a possibility where we actually have room to add "Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel," I would assume, if Joe could weigh in on that. Eight is more utilitarian, it gets the job done. It does say "Virginia," it does say, "Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel." www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 74 I also kind of like the majesty of No. 9. That ship is coming home and it's coming home through a bridge that is open to let it get there. So I would throw my weight behind either No. 8, No. 5 or No. 9. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. Mary, thank you. And Michael. MICHAEL MORAN: Hi, Tom. I looked at this set of drawings in total and what it told me, first of all, you never want to drive this tunnel (indiscernible) a car. technology. I don't care about the I think that the artist had realized too much on gray scale here. this will work. And I question how Maybe with some texturing. Because 5 and 7 are pretty decent, in terms of explaining the technology. I'm sorry, I'm on I26 and this is a miserable highway. And there's not enough technology in South Carolina, if you want to talk about it, on I26. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: You should www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 75 actually be focusing on the road. MICHAEL MORAN: The ship going through the gap there through the -- just not the theme for me. by default. So I'm back to the first four almost And, although, No. 4 doesn't convey the theme really for me. 3 is boring. me of the Morton Salt girl. with No. 1. 2 reminds And that leaves me And so that's where I am, guys. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. Michael, thank you. Okay. And as far as, you know, if we go with No. 1 or No. 2, as far as the Barbara Rose, I would, you know, prefer No. 1, if it went that way. And as far as the technical side of the house, which is where I'm really going to focus, it's going to be No. 5, No. 8, and No. 9. I think that -- I think Mary was spot on there. observation. That was an interesting And I also agree with Jeanne on -- and all of -- all of the discussions have been very well thought out and in a great dialogue. So at this time why don't we just www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 76 go ahead and take -- I think we better take five to ten minutes for both. GREG WEINMAN: I think we can probably do this in five minutes. This is Greg. Once again, everybody send me your scoring, either via text or via email. I received it. You don't need to ask me if If I have not received it, I will reach out to you. But go forward. And, Dr. Brown, once again, just a reminder, please score each design on a qualitative score of 0 to 3, which is how the scoring system works. JOE MENNA: This is Joe. Does anyone feel it's necessary to -GREG WEINMAN: Hold on. Please, yes. Mr. Chairman, do you want to hear from Joe Menna? CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: That will be fine. JOE MENNA: Okay. I mean, just purely artistically, 5 is like ridiculously challenging in sculpt. I mean that in a very www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 77 positive way. think. That would be a heck of a coin, I And it could also be pulled off. Out of respect, Mike's comments on the gray scale, I think that was -- that was employed in order to -- in order to articulate the different planes and curvature and values. I mean, if you look at them, they almost look like model cars. It just -- you could reach into this coin and pick up these cars with your hands. There's such depth -- there's such dynamic perspective going into the coin. I just think it's a really, really exciting coin. The Mint will never present anything less than its best, but just like any great sports team, some players are stronger and some players aren't as good. And for the -- for the -- the final three designs, I think that in terms of just artistic value, I think this is the weakest of their portfolio. That's all I have to say. I'm really -- I'm really excited by the whole -- this whole grouping. I mean, I think it's just a wonderful -- wonderful set of designs. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Thank Meeting March 11, 2020 78 you. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. Joe, thank you. Okay. Greg will be capturing all of the tallying and votes. (Recess from 10:33 a.m. to 10:41 a.m.) GREG WEINMAN: Okay. We can go back on the record. Mr. Chairman, are you ready? CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: GREG WEINMAN: Yes. Okay. For Virginia: Design No. 1 received 19 points; Design No. 2 received 1, Design No. 3 received 0; Design No. 4 received 0, Design No. 5 received 20, which is the highest vote getter, although very close to Design No. 1; Design No. 6 received 5, Design No. 7 received 5; Design No. 8 received 15, Design No. 9 received 11; and Design No. 10 received 1. So the Committee's first choice by a hair is Design No. 5, with Design No. 1 coming in a close second. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Are there Meeting March 11, 2020 79 any motions at this time? If not, we'll go ahead and review designs for the New York Innovation Dollar. Why don't we go ahead and start out with Dr. Dean. DEAN KOTLOWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Is it morning or evening where you are? DEAN KOTLOWSKI: question. Well, that's a good It's 1:41 in the morning. fine for me. 2:00 or 3:00. stimulating. So this is When I'm home, I can stay up until This has been -- this has been very And I hope that I can add to this. I am a native of New York State and I'm a native of Buffalo, New York, and I'm a fan of the New York Yankees, so there's a lot of baggage here and a lot of -UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Much like snow, too. DEAN KOTLOWSKI: snow. Yeah, I do like And as a kid we learned the Erie Canal song, which I won't sing, but I've got a mule, her name www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 80 is Sal, 15 miles on the Erie Canal. And we always had to sing that in music. And so there are three different designs here. And as I was working through them, I thought of three things. We have the obvious, we have the claimed and we have the assertive. Now, the obvious is the Erie Canal. And then Mary helped me because what does New York State have that no other state has? Canal. And it's the Erie And the Erie Canal was huge. While we were totaling up the votes, I looked up the classic book, and it's an old one, it was called, "The Transportation Revolution of the 19th Century" -- it was called, "The Transportation Revolution," by George Rogers Taylor. era. And he has a whole chapter on the canal And the first subheading is, "The Erie Canal and the Beginning of the Boom." So this was huge. And I won't go into all of the details here, but I very much like No. 1. I like the fact that Buffalo is mentioned, as well as www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 81 Albany. I think this gives you a majestic sweep. I think it may be more of a traditional coin, but I don't care, I think it's a very beautiful coin. You see the boats and so on and so forth. And here, Joe, question to you. You have a small figure there. that stuff is very fine. Maybe some of Do you think it's -- are there any sort of technical issues about it being, you know, too finely grained as a coin? JOE MENNA: Dr. Dean, we pretty much -- I hope do you don't mind me calling you that. DEAN KOTLOWSKI: No, go ahead. Call me Dean. JOE MENNA: Yes, sir. You know, we -- all -- every design in the portfolio passed a rigorous coin-ability review by our product design specialist team, and, you know, and they communicated all that stuff to me. And, you know, we do multiple passes on that kind of thing, a lot of time. If we present a design to you, it means that we do www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 82 believe that it is coinable. DEAN KOTLOWSKI: All right. That's why I've never asked you that question before. I just wanted to be sure with No. 1. JOE MENNA: It's going to be rather impressionistic at this certain scale. But, like, if you look at that -- what is it, the platinum series that we did before, it had like a little stagecoach in the background, it was very teeny. I think it was platinum, I just remember I sculpted it, Justin Coots designed it. But I remember having to sculpt this teeny stagecoach. And I honestly didn't think it would show up on the coin, but it did show up on the coin. So we'll make it work. You can see it. But that's what the -- if that's what you focus ultimately vote on as your choice, we'll make it work. DEAN KOTLOWSKI: Well, I think that No. 1 gives you a sense of the sweep from Albany to Buffalo. You get the canal boat, you get New York. I think it's very serviceable and accurate. think there's a real eloquence here. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 But I Meeting March 11, 2020 83 I think No. 2 is trying to do the same thing. And it just -- the design is just a little clunky to me. And No. 3 is the, I've got a mule, her name is Sal. canal here. that. And Sal is trumping the And I'm not sure that I care for I -- again, I don't want to sound like I'm anti-animal, but in this case, I think I am, so I'm going to let it stay there. So No. 4, I don't like it at all. I don't think that gives you the sense of the sweep. And No. 5 is just a pretty picture. And I'm not sure -- it's not necessarily inspiring to me. Now we get to baseball, which is declaimed here. And I'm not an expert on the origins of baseball, I -- but I think a lot of people now believe that Abner Doubleday is a pure myth. And this Cartwright guy is really important. But as I understand it, forms of baseball were being played before the 1840s. And then rule changes are going to happen after the 1845, what we'll call the Knickerbocker rules. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I Meeting March 11, 2020 84 think we can assume they didn't have a designated hitter in 1845. So I think New York is trying to claim something here. And I think it's going to fall short. Also we had -- we discussed basketball at one point being invented in Massachusetts. I remember that being a very short conversation. I wouldn't say we were dismissive, but something close to it. I'm going to listen very closely, I think the last would be asserted. And these are the designs of the lunar landing module. And I think what New York is trying to do is to assert their relevance to the moon landing. And I'm not saying that's unconvincing. As I found it -- as I looked at these, they were so similar -- because, again, I'm going to be listening carefully to the debate as it unfolds. I looked and I looked and these are some thoughts. much to No. 11. I ultimately was drawn very I think it gets the job done. That's what I would imagine the lunar surface www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 85 looks like. I don't know if that's the way the earth works. I suspect it isn't. earth looks like No. 13. I suspect the And we might want to do a situation substitution and take the earth from 13 and put it in either 11, or, if you guys go with, No. 12. No. 12, they decided to shrink the lunar module to make space for Long Island. I know that's Long Island. And And I appreciate the geography lesson, but that might look like some sort of extraterrestrial, creepy crawly, going across the moon's surface, somebody unfamiliar with New York geography. I read the notes, that the importance of that page, New York. No. 13 is nice. I think There's some blank space there and it's a little simple and plain. No. 14, that looks like the lunar module is landing somewhere in Kansas. I don't know why I'm thinking that, it's just an impression. I don't think 15 and 16 are particularly interesting. 17 is okay. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 And for Meeting March 11, 2020 86 some reason I didn't much like the activity in No. 18. It's supposed to be, I think, either -- I think it's supposed to be blasting off there, but that looks like water that's shooting out and I wasn't immensely impressed. I guess the last thing I would say is that I like some of the texts that said, "Landed on the moon, built in New York." I think that's good, taut, simple, muscular language, but it's probably better to just show it landing on the moon. And that concludes my comments there. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Dr. Dean. Thank you, And then as you referred to the Erie Canal, there were many (indiscernible) spots as well. And there are numerous medals regarding the Erie Canal as well. So with that, I'm -- a medal guy can take this discussion, and that's Mike Moran. Mike. MICHAEL MORAN: I'm here, Tom. You caught me by surprise there. When I was doing the research for www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 87 my last book, one thing that came out loud and clear was that before the Erie Canal, the financial center of was on Chestnut Street in Philadelphia. After the Erie Canal, it was on Wall Street in New York City. It is significant and it's very important to New York. But I still got to let the art dictate how I'm going to vote here. In terms of the Erie Canal designs, No. 1 is head and shoulders above the others. I think the elevation from Albany to Buffalo that runs across the coin, I think that's unique. The others are too simplistic for my taste. I'm not into baseball in New York. I think that there's (indiscernible) that needs to be brought up effectively that we ought to stay clear of. When it comes to the lunar lander, I don't think in No. 12, the outline of Long Island really is necessary. 11 or 13. I can go with either 15 is nice and clean, and it's not the lunar lander, it's something else. I think that www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 88 if you try and get the notion that's shown in 14 or 18 onto a dollar coin, you're just going to mess it up, so I would not be doing those. In this case, I believe that if we can get No. 1 sculpted well, that's where I'm going to go. Thank you, Tom. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. Thank you. Donald. DONALD SCARINCI: Well, first of all, everybody knows that Hoboken, New Jersey is the birth place of baseball, and New York cannot steal it with a coin. So -- so -- so their attempts to do that here is misplaced and they're not getting away with it. So forget the baseball coins. not voting for any of that. perpetrate that myth. I'm And I'm not going to So that's off the table for me. The -- now, with that being said, by the way, for the artists who did these designs, particularly 6, 7, and 8, kudos to the artist. You know, when we do New Jersey, let's -- let's recycle those with New Jersey on www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 89 it. And -- and -- and, you know, I also like the artist who did No. 8. well. Kudos to that artist as The perspective with a -- with a focus on the ball. If this were a dollar size -- you know, full silver dollar size, that would be a really nice design on a $1 commemorative coin. You know, so -- so, you know, I like the art there. The topic, no. In terms of what's the most important innovation in New York, and if you had to really pick one, I think -- I think everyone's correct, I mean, the Erie Canal clearly was probably one of the significant things. And, you know -- you know, probably but for the Erie Canal, Alexander Hamilton was right, but for the Erie Canal that Jersey City would have been the financial capital of America and not Wall Street. The Erie Canal changed all that. And the Erie Canal, you know -- you know, to a great extent, changed America. So it's clearly -- it's clearly something that should be commemorated. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 But Mike Meeting March 11, 2020 90 is also -- Mike right, I mean, I have to let the designs govern the coin. And I really -- I just don't like the designs for 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5. And I just don't like -- I don't like the designs for this series. You know, I don't think -- I just don't think they stand out. they go with the other coins. I just don't think I just don't -- I just don't like them. And so -- and so with that being said, I look at them in contrast to, you know, the lunar lander and -- and now, you know, I think we need to do a fact-check that this is true, right, let's just assume that it is true, and I just did a little preliminary check on the internet, it does appear that this is true, that these -- that the lunar lander was constructed in Bethpage, New York. So if this is true, then -- then there's no question at all that all things pass due Sal, so, you know -- and since -- since we, The Mint, are -- you know even though we don't like to say it, we are in the business of selling coins, right, and, you know -- and, you www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 91 know, there is -- there is precedent that things that are space related do tend to -- do tend to sell. People like space. You know, this is -- this is a -- this is certainly -- this is certainly a good -you know, this is certainly a good topic. It certainly does represent the high watermark of America achievement, you know. And no one else in the world has replicated this achievement and -- in 50-plus years, 60-plus years. No one has replicated this achievement. So I think it certainly warrants -and in contrast, you know, only us nerds understand the significance of the Erie Canal, right. Let's be honest. You know, we understand the significance of the Erie Canal, but most of Americans can kind of get the -- the significance of man walking on the moon. And giving New York its credit for the construction of the lunar lander is probably -- you know, is probably something that's a little overdue and warranted. So, you know -- but the real reason www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 92 that I'm supporting -- the real reason I would support one of these designs is exactly what Mike said, you know, I have to let design govern and -- and even though I know better that the Erie Canal was -- was very important, these designs are crisp, they will look good on the sides of the pallet, they are simple, plain and popular. So they have everything you want for this coin. And really the only thing it now comes down to is which one do you pick. So, you know, let's go by process of elimination, which one you don't pick, you don't pick a team. It kind of looks like a sick bird and on a small planet, it looks like a big bird. On something bigger, it would look better, but not on a small planet. You know, I'm drawn, you know, to No. 12. You know, I cringe when I see little maps and things like that, you know, on the -the little flag, little earth, little map, little star, you know, too much. So I -- I discount -- I throw away No. 12, right. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 93 You know, No. 15 is clean, but too clean and too many words. And so I kind like, you know, as to what -- among what's left, you know, I -- I'm kind of liking this, you know -I'm going to be very anxious to hear what Joe has to say, but I'm kind -- I'm kind of liking the No. 11, because it's clearly the lunar lander on the moon. You know, I'm -- you know, I -- I think it's a little nicer and more simplistic than having the No. 14, that kind has the -- has the exhaust coming down the moon, makes it a little more complicated. It's a little more busy than No. 13, so I could see it -- I can see a very strong argument to go with No. 13. So Joe could persuade me to go with No. 13 versus 11 very easily. I could blow that up very easily. And I think for me, that's the choice, it's either 11 or 13. simplistic, clean, simple. We can go with the And 13 -- and what I like about 13 is it's clean. For the size of the coin, this coin is all about the lunar lander. No. 13 is clean, the focus -- the eye is about www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 94 the lunar lander. You know, it does it for me. So I can go with 13 or 11. You know, I'll be persuaded by Joe. JOE MENNA: Is that an invitation? I'm sorry. This is Joe by the way. DONALD SCARINCI: JOE MENNA: It really is, Joe. Well, I think I -- I would go with 13, and for different reasons. I don't -- I mean, again, best foot forward every time. I think 11's a fine design, but, you know, whenever something's symmetrical, it's kind of boring. So the bilateral symmetry to No. 11, I think, kind of counts against it. And then the realistic treatment of the lander versus the stylized treatment of the stars, I think adjust the position, even though they'll be teeny, for me, it's a little -- it's a little bit off. I think I would -- I think that your choice of 13 is -- is -it sounds like -- it's very astute and I like it. DONALD SCARINCI: Thirteen it is. It's clean. Thirteen it is. Thirteen is clean, especially for the size of the coin. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Your eye goes Meeting March 11, 2020 95 to the lunar lander. And I think -- and I think it's -- and I think -- hey, look, I think -- I think it's a popular coin. I think it's a seller, I think it's a popular coin. And, you know, I think it would look good on brochures and people will buy it. So that's -- that's -- that's my -- that's -- that's my piece. MARY LANNIN: Mary. Mr. Chair, this is May I go next after Donald? CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: New Yorker. You're the next Go ahead. MARY LANNIN: And one of the newest New Yorkers. Okay. So regarding what I said about what does the state has that no other state has. Certainly the Erie Canal fits that nail on the head. But I need to tell you that I honestly laughed when I saw the language on 15 and 16. If that's not New York, I don't know what it is, "Landed on the Moon. Built in New York." So I like what Donald just depicted, it's something that's very clean. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 The Meeting March 11, 2020 96 only thing that I would like to do is can we made substitute, "Made in Bethpage," for, "Built in Bethpage, Built in New York," on that one. And then I think that would just be an absolutely awesome coin. So I would put my votes toward No. 15, with a motion to change the words -- the verbiage. And if not, I actually do like No. 4, for sort of a symbolic Erie Canal. And I'm going to never argue with Donald about where baseball was started, so we're going to stop all that. No. 13. So my choice would be Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Thank you, Mary. Robert. ROBERT HOGE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. So this is somewhat a difficult selection. I kind of like the Erie Canal as a theme because of its momentos importance in the development of the country. Design No. 1 is nice, but I find that design a little bit confusing. In the background, I suppose that's a wall of the side of the canal lock or something, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 97 but it seems to me that the small size, it's very likely it just looks like another body of water, and so I'm a little uncertain about what we're seeing. Because the lower edge, which is the path of the Erie Canal, all lead to Buffalo, seems to be not what you would expect of the edge of the side of the canal, so I don't know. It's just -- I -- I -- I understand what Joe said, this would be imminently sculptable. And since this is the state preference, I wanted to give it some consideration here. I just -- just don't know if this is the best presentation that we can see of the canal. Now, the others are quite clear. The No. 5, I agree, is a very, very nice picture, but maybe that's the best selection of the Erie Canal. promise. It's something that gives a lot of I won't go into the baseball controversy here. I don't know that it's that important for the development of the state as a single-standing innovation. It seems like the innovation came from many sources. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 98 Now, of course, the lunar lander is a momentos thing. And one thing that I was struck with was the very different perspectives that are shown here of the same -- the same object in the way the artist interpreted the presentations of it. And the fisherman himself is kind of remarkable. I like a number of these and think that they could be made to work probably virtually any one of them could. I do have some trepidation about the map in No. 12 with its little star. I mean, I think it's understandable what it is, but I agree, it does look like possibly some sort of alien extraterrestrial monster. Maybe that's what Long Island is, I don't know. But the lunar module looks as though -- it's not really the same vehicle in all these representations. The angles of the legs look a little bit different. Is there drapery or something on some of these or is that dirt, affects of birding that shows a different www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 99 perspective on the sides? I'm not really sure which is the best sort of representation to go with, and so I hesitate to specify one of these more so than another. Although, I do like the cleanliness of the effect of Design No. 13. That probably would be my favorite with my reservations. Thank you. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Thank you, Robert. Dennis. DENNIS TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am actually a New Yorker as well. I grew up in Oswego County and went to school in Rochester. Oswego County being the Syracuse area, so Erie Canal is dear to my heart. Tom, if -- if it's okay, I'd like to take a quick review. You mentioned a conundrum that I'm starting to see in the past regarding this program and then I want to get back to New York and focus on that. It seems to me like we need to figure out whether we should vote first on themes www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 100 and then once we've decided on a theme, vote on the art within that theme or if we should vote on the art across the entire portfolio and let that land wherever it might. I see some problems with the latter approach and I see some -- I see some advantages to voting first on the theme, because even if we don't like the art within a theme, we can then go back to where it mentioned and say we would like to see another portfolio or we'd like to see this changed. GREG WEINMAN: Dennis, this is Greg. This is based on past practices, based on the way the scoring comes out, you're always welcome to make individual motions that could encompass any strategy to that effort. DENNIS TUCKER: GREG WEINMAN: Thank you. So at least as we've been doing this these last couple of years, you all have been simply scoring all of the designs that are in the portfolio and then taking that information and utilizing it. Because at the end of the day, this is just a tool, the scoring www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 101 system, a tool that you can then use to craft individual motions should you desire to do so. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: The other thing, Dennis, prior to you -DENNIS TUCKER: Thank you. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: -- coming on, what we used to do is, just if we had 12 designs, we would say which picks we're going to focus on, those would be the only -- or eight, or whatever it was, if anyone had a preference to talk about a particular design that was put on the table and then anything that wasn't put on the table was not discussed. So we've done it that way as well. DENNIS TUCKER: Yeah. I guess these are just different ways of looking at and thinking about what we're presented. This particular program is different from a lot of programs that the Mint works on because the Governors are not limited to a single theme or even two themes. I think there's a -- they can propose up to three so -CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: And having said www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 102 that, you're right, and I think it kind of puts us in an awkward situation; however, if they're giving us three, then I think equal weight has to be given, or discussion, to the three, or whatever it might be, one, two or three, so it's programmatic otherwise. DENNIS TUCKER: Yes. The -- let me give an illustration of what I see as the conundrum in that. moment. Let's take -- just to divert for a If we take a theoretical coinage program on the presidency, let's say, if we're presented with a portfolio that consists of 15 amazing great portraits of James Buchanan and one bad portrait of George Washington, then James Buchanan would become the theme, because -- if you're looking at art only because you're comparing amazing great portraits for a bad portrait, or if we're presented two great portraits of George Washington and ten great portraits of Abraham Lincoln, then the votes for Lincoln would be diffused among ten candidates, and the votes for Washington would be concentrated among two candidates and George Washington would www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 103 win. And you can argue for or against either of these outcomes. I'm just saying that mathematically, the -- the forces at work tend to favor one over the other possibly unfairly. So I think we need to -- I recommend that we -- that we think about this a bit. And I'm not making a motion and I'm not saying we need to set a policy, of course, but I'm just saying that we need to be conscious of these mathematical possibilities as we look at designs. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: And at the same token, you can give weight to three different designs, three different themes if you voted three for three -- you know, three different ones. So everyone can do that and is aware of that, but we'll look at options as well. DONALD SCARINCI: Can I make a comment, Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: DONALD SCARINCI: Yes. Mr. Chairman, you know I -- I -- I kind of modified Mike Moran's www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 104 position because Mike -- Mike's position, you know, was -- was look at the art, right. I took it, like -- I kind of modified it and I said, yes, he's right, look at the art, but let's -- let's -- let's consider one more thing. When you do look at the art and you discount the five Erie Canal coins because of the art, also consider the fact that while we all get the importance of the Erie Canal because we're nerds, you know, we're essentially nerds, and we get it, most of America is really not going to get it. And most of America is going to get the lunar lander. And -- and that's all I'm saying. When you consider Erie Canal versus lunar lander, most of America is going to get lunar lander. And since the art is better in the lunar lander anyway, these -- the equities weigh in favor of the lunar lander versus -- versus Erie Canal. Now, if I had a great piece of art that really, you know, was "oh wow" for Erie Canal, you know, you're right, I'd probably go www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 105 with Erie Canal, but I don't. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: You bring out a point there, because you're also saying what we're really trying to focus on what New York significance is and then we're also looking at what the numismatic world would buy. So -- but I kind of lean in favor of what is the most for New York, kind of what Dr. Dean was starting out with. But, Dennis, go head and finish up. DENNIS TUCKER: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Okay. Numismatically speaking, I would point out that the Mint has honored baseball on coins, it's honored lunar landing on coins, but it has never recognized the importance of the Erie Canal on a coin. Tom pointed out that there have been medals, very significant historical medals. But this is an opportunity for the Mint to recognize a great New York State innovation. So I -- I believe that the Erie Canal is far outweighed the best theme for this coin program. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 106 Design 1, I think even with the forest perspective and the bright light in the back, it's visually flat. And there's no single element that really stands out as the primary focus for your eye. So, for me, No. 1 really doesn't work as a coin. No. 2 has kind of a Disney quality to it. I imagine some people might find it hokey, I actually like it. And I like the fact that No. 2 has some explanatory text just in case you weren't born in the Syracuse, New York area, or in Buffalo, then you need to be informed of what this coin is all about, you've got it spelled out right there. I like No. 3. mule named Sal. Dean, I like that That's a nice illustration. I like No. 5 as well, I think it's a good illustration. No. 4 is nice, but I don't think it says enough about the canal. It says a lot about the man tending this boat and the boat itself. I think it's well done and I -- I like the way it's laid out and balanced. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 But I really Meeting March 11, 2020 107 prefer No. 2. I think it would make a nice coinable sculpture. And I think it communicates a lot of romance and adventure and just day-to-day utility of the Great Erie Canal. Thank you, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: SAM GILL: Okay. Sam. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm going to take you back off of Dennis here. in general. And I agree with what he's saying With all due respect to Bethpage, NASA could have chosen any state probably to make that lunar lander, so I'm not sure that is unique enough for New York. The baseball, I don't think it can make that claim. But the Erie Canal, they sure can. And it's something that, thank goodness for Dean, he still teaches history, but maybe a lot of young people today are not getting enough history, but all of us certainly remember the Erie Canal, reading about the Erie Canal when we were coming along. I like -- I like No. 1. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I like Meeting March 11, 2020 108 No. 2. No. 1, I prefer only because it tells more of the story; although, I really do like the looks of No. 2. But No. 1, I -- I would like to see a date added there if they could, "1825," if there's room for it, if it makes sense, only because it puts a time perspective on it. Because it was such a great achievement, engineering achievement, it's such an early period of our history. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Thank you, Sam. Robin. ROBIN SALMON: Thanks. Yeah, this -- this is tough. The -- the Erie Canal, there's no doubt it's so important in American history and innovation. And I just wish we had a little bit better designs to work with. 1 and 2. Of the five, I'm drawn to No. 2, I think, could be less cartoon-ish and more eloquent in the manner it's sculpted, of course. But the fact that it does have the course of the canal there in the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 109 background, of course, as the opening date is important because everybody doesn't know these things. And No. 1 is a beautiful scene. I'm not sure how well it's going to translate into a coin design that will be compelling. I'm not including baseball in this discussion. Everybody has already talked about that. There is -- I will say something about the lunar module. I -- I agree with everyone who has spoken in favor of it. it could be a great coin. I think And the only issue that I have is that it's -- it's made in New York, but where was it designed? it? Who designed To me, that is what is the significant innovation. And for that reason, I -- I really think that I'm going to go with the Erie Canal as the important innovation for New York. I would add with the Apollo design, that No. 17 says to me the -- what needs to be said with a nice image of the landing craft, but also the statement, "Apollo Lunar Modules," that www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 110 everybody, again, does not know what this is. And if I had to choose one from this series, I would go with -- with that for that reason. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Thank you, Robin. And a good point on that -- thought on that. Dr. Brown. DR. BROWN: I'm a New Yorker as well. And as much as I love the myth about baseball, I think I'm -- I'm intrigued by the Apollo landing. I like to focus on what would New Yorkers, they would like to have rest of the world focus on, and in that regard. I think the Erie Canal is the best way to do that. And in that respect, my vote goes to options No. 1 and 2. Thank you. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Thank you, Dr. Brown. Jeanne. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd just like very much to talk about what Dr. Brown spoke of, that the New www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 111 Yorkers would focus on the Erie Canal. I think it's a very important aspect of history. especially, you know, 1825. And I think, part of our coinage program is to teach a bit of history. I think it can -- the only thing that I think I question about No. 1, and I may just not know enough about the Erie Canal, but it seems to me, how is -- how are those barges powered, you know, if we don't the mule in there? And I'm a little concerned about it. When I go back to our enlarged image, you do see that this is a stonewall, it's not miles of ocean, the smaller image leads us to believe. So it would take, I think, a lot of sculpting to convince people that that's not water, but it is a wall. I like No. 2, because yes, we do have the mules pulling the barge. map of the canal. informative. And I like the I think that that's very And I do agree with Mary, that it it's a bit cartoon-ish, so perhaps in sculpting that, that might change, where we would have www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 112 something a little more eloquent. So if I'm going to go with the theme of the canal, I would have to go with 1 or 2. And then we're not going to talk about baseball because Donald has convinced me that New York doesn't own it. the lunar modules. And I go back to And, you know, in the beginning I was just dismissing them because I thought they were a little confusing, the module itself, and maybe not going to transfer correctly, but we do have a good sculptor in charge of this, so I'm going to let you know I think lunar module could work very well. So it leaves me with 13 or 17 in that series, mainly because they're both simple, we have a lot of negative space in there. do like 17 and the text that's involved. And I I think -- I'm in a conundrum here, I just don't know which one, either the canal or the lunar landing, to support. But, Donald, you did convince me to look at those images, so thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 113 Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. Jeanne, thank you. And as I reflect on these designs as well, I kind of -- I look at the sacrifice that was done to make the Erie Canal, and every employee or person that worked on that did get those medals done, if I'm not mistaken, and there was a lot of sacrifice involved. So as far as the theme goes, I think that, yes, the lunar certainly has its presence, but maybe we can reinvigorate the importance of the Erie Canal, so I'm going to lean more towards that. I feel like Jeanne and Donald both have good aspects. And I think all of us have said that, so I'm going to lean more, though, towards 1, 2, and 3, and count on the Mint to have good artwork, as they do. So with that, why don't we take five minutes and -GREG WEINMAN: Does Joe Menna want to speak more? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 114 Mr. Chairman, do you want to ask the Chief of -CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: No, that's fine. Yeah, no, I know he's made some comments, but go ahead. JOE MENNA: Thank you very much. I just thought what you said earlier in one of the meetings, after everybody went through that, I was just going to put my five cents in, but I -- I tried to keep it two cents. But I -- I mean, you know, this is a very diverse portfolio. I just think that, you know, my -- I think artistically, I think New York No. 13, just artistically, not personally, but artistically, I think, it's a strong design. And if you -- if you look at one from each group, I would -- I would describe as picturesque, I think No. 5 for New York is very attractive. I think it would make a great coin, with the lead-in and the polishing of the water and the sky would contrast very nicely with the landscape of the boat. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 115 And for baseball, I think we've done some baseball, we've done a big baseball on a coin before. No. 8, I think, artistically is also most interesting, because you're capturing -- you're -- you're actually in the main of the ball coming towards the batter. That's kind of interesting, I think, artistically. So that's all I have to say. And thank you for your time. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. Thank you, Joe. And everyone takes five minutes. ROBERT HOGE: Tom, this is Robert. Could I make one additional comment? CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: ROBERT HOGE: what Joe just said. Certainly. I really appreciate And I find that I'm in absolute agreement with him on what he said. And also Dennis had mentioned that there was no representation of the Erie Canal previously, but actually on the New York State www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 116 quarter, which came out in 2001, it's very clearly depicted, although, not mentioned, as connecting the Hudson river system with the -with the eastern part of Lake Erie. So although its inscription means gateway of freedom, not referenced to the Erie Canal, it is depicted there, along with an additional map of New York. Thank you for that. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: DEAN KOTLOWSKI: Okay. Tom, this is Dean, could I make -- mention a couple brief comments? CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: DEAN KOTLOWSKI: Certainly. Very, very brief here. Robert, I'm trying to remember the New York State quarter. I think that the principal image, though, on that coin was the Statute of Liberty and the State of New York. And I think the Erie Canal was -- was not really very prominent. There was a stamp issued in 1967 to celebrate the centennial and the building of the Erie Canal, but that was a long time ago. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 117 ROBERT HOGE: That's correct, but the Erie Canal is actually depicted pretty clearly even though it's not mentioned. And the principal design is, you just said, the state outline, typical state outline. Thank you. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. Thank you. Greg, you can let us know what ballots you don't receive in the next three minutes. GREG WEINMAN: Absolutely. Everybody please forward. (Recess from 11:27 a.m. to 11:33 a.m.) GREG WEINMAN: We have: votes. Back on the record. Design No. 1 received 16 That is the top vote getter; Design No. 2 received 11; Design No. 3 received 3; 4 received 3; 4A, I guess -- is it 4A -- received 5. Is there -- oh, there's just one 4? BETTY BIRDSON: Yes, there's just one 4. GREG WEINMAN: Okay. Let's just -- then 4 received 6, not that it's relevant, but 4 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 118 received 6; 5 received 6; 6 received 3; 7 received 3; 7A received 0; 2 received 2; 9 received 0; 10 received 0; 11 received 2; 12 received 0; 13 received 13, 14 received 2; 15 received 2; 16 received 1; 17 received 3; 18 received 0. So once again the top vote getter was Design No. 1 with 16, and then Design No. 13 with 13. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. Thank you, Greg. Okay. After that, is there -- are there any motions at this time? DENNIS TUCKER: Yes, Mr. Chair. This is Dennis. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: DENNIS TUCKER: Go ahead. I think just given the lay of the land with our voting tally, there's an obvious preference for the Erie Canal as the theme; however, I do feel strongly that No. 1 is not the best design from a coin viewpoint, so I would move that we take another vote after discussion and possibly fine tune or change our www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 119 recommendation to the Secretary on which design we would like to see for the Erie Canal theme, if that's acceptable. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. So we have a motion by Dennis to review the top vote getters there for the Erie Canal. Is there a second? JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: I second it. Jeanne seconds it. Any discussion? Go ahead. DENNIS TUCKER: Yes. Well, in terms of discussion, I would just repeat what I said earlier; and that's there is no single element in this design that really engages your eye. And I feel that it's going to be a very flat-looking coin. I think No. 2, No. 3 and No. 5 all offer greater opportunities for the sculptor, certainly greater opportunities for different formats, reverse proof, or what have you. Now, I think 2, 3, and 5 are all stronger coin designs www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 120 then No. 1 would be. DONALD SCARINCI: Could I ask a question? I mean, look, the little -- the little man here, that's -- that's -- that -- the little man has to go, right. I mean, but -- but is it -- is it out of the question to ask for new designs on the Erie Canal theme, and then maybe we can get something that is nice for this series? Not that these aren't nice. I don't want to say -- I'm not suggesting, because this is the nicer, kinder, gentler Donald, right, so I'm not -- I'm not suggesting that these designs are not nice, I'm just suggesting that these designs are not consistent with the other designs in the series and that we can produce a design that's more consistent with the series that would -- that would commemorate -- you know, that would honor the Erie Canal. And that's the only reason that I didn't support the Erie Canal is because the designs, you know -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 121 CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: So why don't we ask April or Megan, whoever has worked on this, to give us an opinion. GREG WEINMAN: Megan, are you on the line? MEGAN SULLIVAN: I am, yes. So I really appreciate all of the opinions here. Unfortunately, with this program, as we have been dealing with in the last couple of years, we're still playing catch-up a bit in terms of timeline. So I think that from a manufacturing standpoint, since this is a 2021 program, I think that would be a major challenge for the manufacturing team. I mean, I can't outright say yes or no on that simply because I'm not the production fiddler. But I do know that it would cause significant difficulty. Again, as we are still trying to catch up from the late, I guess for lack of a better word, passing of legislation. DENNIS TUCKER: Mr. Chair -- CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Yes, go ahead. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 122 DENNIS TUCKER: -- this is Dennis. Megan, thank you for that -- for that information. Donald, I see where you're coming from. I would actually suggest that there is not a strong design template that's been established for this program yet. We've only had four coins -- I'm sorry, five coins come out. One of them has a silhouette, a couple of them actually use silhouette. One of them is very drawing like, the Georgia coin with the trustees' garden. So, you know, No. 2 is not that different. No. 3 and No. 5, these are not that different from the Georgia coin. So I think just in terms of design style, I don't think 2, 3 or 5 depart from something that's been strongly established in the series. I think any of them would be a good additions to the program. So I -- I could not be in favor of a motion to ask the Mint to come back with more designs. I think we have good designs in 2, 3, and 5. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 123 Keep in mind what Dr. Dean had also mentioned that No. 1 does relay in Albany and Buffalo and New York, it incorporates a lot of New York in that design, which is one of the reasons that drew me on the Erie Canal preference for that one; whereas, the others don't necessarily. For instance, No. 5, I -- it doesn't say Erie Canal anywhere there, it's just going to look like another one of the state quarters to me. If I -- if I was looking at it, 1, 2 or 3 might, you know, be more -- more -- so even 4, 4 at least mentions it. Because we have to define it, I don't think, we'll have a state park coin here if we do otherwise. But any further discussion? So we have a motion by Dennis to -DEAN KOTLOWSKI: Tom, Mr. Chairman, it's Dean. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: DEAN KOTLOWSKI: Go ahead. I just wanted to say, following on something that Jeanne said, and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 124 Joe, I still am attracted to No. 1. And, Jeanne, you made the point that when you looked at the bigger image, it was clearly a wall. And that's what I found, too. So I felt more comfortable with the design. Joe said that he could sculpt it. little man is there. And I do think the Just a reminder that that was the choice of the Governor's office in New York. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: good point. That's a good point. Okay. motion. Yes, that's a Let's take a vote on this We have a motion by Dennis to look at other designs in relation to the Erie Canal theme, seconded by Jeanne. If you would like to do that, signify by saying yes, if you are okay with the selected No. 1, you can vote no. GREG WEINMAN: Are we taking -- CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: GREG WEINMAN: Dr. Dean? Sorry. Go take the roll, please. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: I was just going www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 125 to do a roll call on this. GREG WEINMAN: Please, go ahead. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: DEAN KOTLOWSKI: No. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: ROBERT HOGE: Dr. Dean? Robert? Excuse me. Vote -- "no" means we -- I'm in favor of this motion, so I say "yes"? CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: You say you want to review. ROBERT HOGE: Yes. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: You would like to review the design? ROBERT HOGE: Yes. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: MARY LANNIN: Okay. Mary? We want to review the five designs, is that what the motion is? CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Yes. Or if you say "no," then you're voting for No. 1, which was already voted on, either way. MARY LANNIN: I'll say yes. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Robin? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 126 ROBIN SALMON: Yes. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: SAM GILL: Sam? No. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Dr. Brown? I'll come back to Dr. Brown. Donald? DONALD SCARINCI: Yes, because it can't get any worse. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Jeanne? JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes. I'm saying this with reservations because are we only going to review the five? CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: That's it. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: DENNIS TUCKER: can get worse. So I vote no. Yes. Dennis? Yes. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: MICHAEL MORAN: Okay. Mike? As to Donald, yes, it No, I'm fine with No. 1. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: DR. BROWN: Okay. No. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Dr. Brown? Meeting March 11, 2020 127 CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: No. Okay. So it looks like we have six yeses and five nos. Correct, is that what you have -GREG WEINMAN: That's what I have as well, therefore, the motion -- motion passes. And you can have a conversation just about these Erie Canal designs. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. The floor is open regarding discussion on 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, without sending them back. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Could you repeat what you just said? CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: We're reviewing Designs 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, without consideration of returning them. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: in here? Can I jump This is Jeanne. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Go ahead. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I like very much -- Joe mentioned No. 5, where he said that -you know, this could clean up very lovely; however, it does not say anything about the Erie Canal, so www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 128 if we did look at this again, is it possible that we can insert the text in No. 2, "New York Erie Canal opened in 1825," in that -- you know, underneath, "The United States of America"? And then we would understand this isn't a -- you know, America the Beautiful quarter, this is something else. I think that, you know, we do have a mule in here, which I'm excited about, and so we know that this barge is being pulled by good ole Sal. GREG WEINMAN: You can always make a motion. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Joe, would you comment on that, the adding of the inscription? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I think -- I'm sorry, Tom, I didn't mean to cut you off. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: JOE MENNA: Go ahead. Yeah, because of the circular template like border and sizing of the text, I think that you could easily swing "New York" off to the left and then add "Erie Canal." And then it would be very explicit as to what the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 129 coin represented in that way. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Okay. Thank you. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Are there any comments further on No. 5? ROBERT HOGE: This is Robert. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: ROBERT HOGE: Yes. My feelings are exactly the same as what Mary and Joe have expressed. I think that having that mirror image of the Erie Canal would give us a great deal of prominence. And adding words would make it no mistaken what the intent was. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Yes. the whole underlying problem with it. Okay. Okay. So go ahead, Dennis. DEAN KOTLOWSKI: was me, Dean. That was It's Dean. Oh, Tom, actually it Yeah, I think that's a good idea. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. Jeanne, would you then like to make a motion to accept No. 5 with the modifications accordingly. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 130 JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes, I will do that. I move that we accept No. 5, and add "Erie Canal." And, Joe, if you could even put "1825" on there, I think it would be even better. MARY LANNIN: This is Mary. I second Jeanne's motion. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you, Mary. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. All in favor signify by saying aye. (Multiple ayes.) CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: MICHAEL MORAN: Okay. Can I abstain, Tom? This is -CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: DONALD SCARINCI: Mike, you're not alone. Yes, you can. And, you know what, This is Dean. I'm going to abstain as well. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. Dean abstained. Motion carried. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 131 GREG WEINMAN: Motion carried. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. Moving along now to our next candidate design for the American Innovation $1 Coin. Now, turning the page to another one of Donald's favorites, we're going to go with North Carolina. Don, you already kind of started out there, if you want to continue on. Donald? DONALD SCARINCI: Yes. You want me to go first? CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: DONALD SCARINCI: Go ahead. I guess -- I guess my question is, is -- are they forcing us to do higher education because there's nothing else that happens in North Carolina that is a technical innovation like flight, like -MICHAEL MORAN: question exactly is on that. This is Mike. My This is a -- this is a messed-up package. DONALD SCARINCI: any of these. I'm not voting on I'm just not voting on any of these. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 132 I would like to make a motion to reject all the designs. MARY LANNIN: I second that motion. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I second that. I agree. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Is there any discussion further on this? DONALD SCARINCI: MARY LANNIN: No. The only discussion that I think there is, Megan said, it's a timeline situation so -- but I think that there are -- none of these designs fit into our -DONALD SCARINCI: And I don't think we should be forced to select one -- one theme. mean, they're -- so they -- this is ridiculous. MARY LANNIN: Mr. Chair, this is Mary. The thing that I would like to say about this is that, yes, I think all of -- the single concept of the design should be returned, but I don't want the State of North Carolina to be embarrassed that they couldn't think of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I Meeting March 11, 2020 133 something any better. Is that right? I mean really. DEAN KOTLOWSKI: Tom, can I jump in? This is Dean. Just to refresh my memory, I looked up the North Carolina -- I expected the Wright Brothers, too. I looked up the North Carolina State quarter, and it has -(Crosstalk.) DEAN KOTLOWSKI: bring this up earlier. I -- I was going to I thought of sending it back to the State of North Carolina. I don't think it's worth -CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: But before we take a vote, Megan -SAM GILL: Hey, Tom, this is Sam. The question is, for me, what are the political ramifications to go back -- and I agree with Mary, to go back to North Carolina. I think that's an extremely awkward position to put the Mint in. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Well, that's what www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 134 I was going to ask Megan right now to say, what kind of dialogue has the staff had with the Governor's office? And where there others considered or was this it? If you would give us some background, Megan. MEGAN SULLIVAN: Megan. Sure. This is I do want to add that not only was this the single theme recommended by the Governor's office, but it also was approved by the Secretary. theme has been reviewed and vetted. So this So I'm not sure what the procedure would be to even go back. We'd -- I'd -- we'd have to review that, Greg and Liz, would have to review that -GREG WEINMAN: Uh-huh. MEGAN SULLIVAN: -- if we can. Again, as I said, it's been vetted by the Secretary and approved. recommended. But this was what North Carolina And as someone mentioned, sorry I didn't catch who, flight was considered, but it was already honored on a coin and so they wanted to highlight something different. DEAN KOTLOWSKI: What exactly is the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 135 innovation in education that they're claiming? DENNIS TUCKER: That's spelled out in the narrative by the Mint. DEAN KOTLOWSKI: sorry to jump in. Yeah, but -- I'm This is Dean. From what I remember of the narrative supplied by the Mint, it was -- the innovation was the state university. When I saw this, I thought that they were referring, you know, innovation, higher education, the redevelopment of the research triangle. was my assumption. That And they didn't want to be specific because they didn't want to maybe offend. I don't want to read too much into this because I don't know. In other words, they didn't want to pick and choose among different universities. But, Dennis, what you're saying is they did identify the University of North Carolina. And what did it say, that that was the first public university in the United States, or something like that? I think it was founded before the United States, correct? Wasn't it 1765? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 136 DENNIS TUCKER: The first public university to formally open when it conduced its first class was in 1795, making it the only the public institution to confer degrees in the 18th Century. Shaw University was also pointed out as the oldest historically black institution in the south. And less than a year later, Shaw University accepted its first female class. (Crosstalk.) GREG WEINMAN: Once again, please state -- please, we are transcribing this, speak one at a time and identify yourself. (Crosstalk.) CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Hold on. Let's talk one at a time. Somebody -- Dennis, you go ahead and make it brief and then we'll go on to whoever will be next. DENNIS TUCKER: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. I think that we should not second-guess the Governors of the states and the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 137 Secretary of the Treasury when they present a theme to us as a possibility. You're right, I mean, the fact that we've only been presented with one theme in this particular case is challenging and it does raise questions of why others weren't presented. I'm looking at a website right now that points out North Carolina innovations on Goody's Headache Powder, overhauls, and, you know, various firearms and themes. are other themes out there. So, you know, there But I don't think that we could say that innovations in higher learning are unacceptable or inappropriate for this program. I think that if this was one of two or three, then I don't think we'd be having the same discussion. I think what's bothering people is the fact that this was the only one that was presented when the Governor could have also said, Goody's Headache Powder or the Gatlin Gun. But no, I think that innovations in higher learning are very appropriate for this program. JOE MENNA: Tom, can I offer just www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 138 some artistic comments quickly? CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: DONALD SCARINCI: Go ahead, Joe. Well, I don't know that we're going to get to that. As far as I'm concerned, I'd like a vote on my motion. And I -- I have no problem second-guessing an elected official because -- because we're -- we're responsible for the nation's coinage. And we're about to vote on a very vague North Carolina innovation in higher education, which nobody knows exactly what that means. Right? And we're about to put this on a United States coin because some Governor decided that that's what they want to do and they want to shove it down our throats by not giving us any other options. And I'm not going to accept that. So I made my motion. Let's vote on my motion, because if we're going to consider one of these coins, then I have other things to do. I'm not voting for this. call. I'll just get off the So let's -- let's vote on my motion and then you can continue to discuss this nonsense www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 139 coin that makes no sense to me. going to waste my time on it. And I'm not So let's vote on my motion, please. DENNIS TUCKER: Dennis. Donald, this is You're not the only one -(Crosstalk.) GREG WEINMAN: One at a time. DONALD SCARINCI: I'm on the call. I'm not wasting my time -- I'm not wasting my time on a vague innovation higher education, which nobody knows what it means, but we're going to vote for it, right, and we're going to put it on a coin. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: But the people of North Carolina are listening to you right now, number one. Number two, this is as appropriate an innovation as any other. DONALD SCARINCI: innovation? What is it? What is the What is it? JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: can call for the question. I think we This is Jeanne, call for the question. DEAN KOTLOWSKI: Tom, I want to say www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 140 something. This is Dean. I want to say something -CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Dean -- Dean, hold on one second. I would agree with Don, that Joe is not germane yet to the conversation on the artistic side. So let's just get closer to voting on this motion. Go ahead, Dean. DEAN KOTLOWSKI: Okay. I wonder if there's some kind of -- I mean, I agree with Dennis that innovation in higher education is important, and I think that that's appropriate. that this is horribly vague. I also agree And I wonder if there's a middle road where we can send something back to the Governor -- the Governor's office and suggest, you know, those comments from the Mint to be more specific and to say something about the founding of the University of North Carolina. Maybe there's a design that could emerge about -with the logo, with a date on it, or something along those lines, you know, something like, "First www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 141 Public University to Confer Degrees," or something along those lines. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Something that would give us -GREG WEINMAN: You can make a -- DEAN KOTLOWSKI: GREG WEINMAN: I would like -You can make a friendly amendment if you'd like. DEAN KOTLOWSKI: I will make -- that as -- is that -- am I making a friendly amendment to -GREG WEINMAN: Yes. You would be making a friendly amendment to Donald's motion. DONALD SCARINCI: DEAN KOTLOWSKI: Yeah. Okay. I would make this friendly, that we send it back to the Governor with the recommendation that they follow through and become more specific based on the information that they provided about the University of North Carolina. I don't know how you want to reword that. There's a lot of words that I gave you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 142 But the spirit of this seems to be something about the University of North Carolina in 1795, conferring degrees as a public university and that they come back with some designs that are more reflective of that. excuse me. ROBERT HOGE: I think that this -- This is Robert. I think that this could be fairly easily addressed by referring the designs back to the appropriate parties with the request that they look at this from a design standpoint, that we find that these five designs do not adequately convey the overall impression of higher education. I mean, I think we should go with the idea of higher education as their innovation for the state since this is what they've chosen and this is fine with the Secretary. But, frankly, I'm very, very disappointed with these designs. They just don't seem to do the job. And I think if we explain we would just like to have more amplification because we find these designs each a little bit lacking in the overall www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 143 idea of conveying the concept. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. So Don has a motion on the table, and it's seconded by Mike. If they want to accept the friendly amendment, they'll have to do so, if they don't, then we'll still send it back. And the Mint will word it in a way which is conducive to what Dean and Robert have just said. I don't know that we'll need an amendment. We could leave it up the Mint to convey it appropriately and properly. Don and Mike, how do you feel? DONALD SCARINCI: I think the Mint -- if the Mint is concerned about sending this, they can word it however they'd like. But I'd like to know if they -- if North Carolina thinks they've made innovations in education, the design should reflect what that innovation is. Right? Because this -- these designs do not reflect what that innovation is. And, you know, so they should take these designs back. You know, give us -- give us www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 144 a design that reflects whatever that innovation is that they think they made and insist on one thing for their coin. more clear. Right? It be should be a little That's all. GREG WEINMAN: So Donald is -- Donald essentially is accepting Robert's friendly amendment? CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Exactly. Exactly, that's what it is. DONALD SCARINCI: You can word it however you want to be polite. GREG WEINMAN: Okay. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: And I think -- do we -- we do not want any suggestion of additional themes? We want the educational themes? JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: think -- this is Jeanne. educational theme. Correct. I I think just do the That's all. And even if the design adds text to the rim that says, "North Carolina," I think several of these could add, you know, the state university and the date. that would add -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I think Meeting March 11, 2020 145 DONALD SCARINCI: But listen, the caveat is, there better be an innovation here. JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: DONALD SCARINCI: Correct. There better be something that they've done that's different than any other state has done with their university system. So I don't know that that's the case. (Crosstalk.) DONALD SCARINCI: I don't know that this state has done anything different than other states have done. (Crosstalk.) DONALD SCARINCI: They're at risk that they're claiming an innovation that's not real. I mean, they haven't made their case. GREG WEINMAN: a motion on the table. Mr. Chairman, there's I think it's fairly clear. Once again, you're -- and, Bob, do you want to rephrase your friendly amendment so that we understand what the motion is? ROBERT HOGE: This is Robert. you suggesting I rephrase it? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Are Meeting March 11, 2020 146 GREG WEINMAN: ROBERT HOGE: Yes, just to -To advise further design elements for new designs which can more fully reflect the idea of the innovation of higher education. DEAN KOTLOWSKI: something on to that. And if I could add Including, but not limited to, the University of North Carolina. GREG WEINMAN: Actually we may object to that. ELIZABETH YOUNG: Yes. This is Elizabeth Young, the legal adviser on this program. The Mint can't endorse a specific university on its coinage, so that -- that's an issue. ROBERT HOGE: I withdraw my friendly amendment. DEAN KOTLOWSKI: And I think what Don is saying is that, okay, they better send the first innovation or what difference could it make if it's the same as everywhere else. Correct, Don? DONALD SCARINCI: to have a backup to that. And they might want They might want to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 147 recommend some backup to this innovation in higher education theme. They're running out of time. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Okay. has been made, it's been seconded. A motion All of those in favor of returning the theme with the Mint's prerogative to address it appropriately, all those in favor signify by saying aye. (Multiple ayes.) CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Opposed? Motion carries unanimously. DONALD SCARINCI: Thank you, everybody. GREG WEINMAN: Thank you. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: conclusion. thank you. Okay. That's the All of those that are on the phone, Have a -- if we don't talk, have a blessed Easter. And, Brandon, and any other press that were on, thank you for being with us for about three hours. And everyone over there, thanks for all your help and we'll be in touch. GREG WEINMAN: You need a motion to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 148 dismiss. Motion to dismiss? JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN: This is Jeanne, so moved. ROBIN SALMON: Robin, so moved. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Robin. A motion to adjourn second. ROBERT HOGE: This is Robert. I second. CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Robert seconded. All those in favor signify by saying aye. (Multiple ayes.) CHAIRMAN TOM URAM: Have a great day. GREG WEINMAN: Opposed? Thanks. Meeting adjourned. (Whereupon, at 12:05 p.m., the meeting in the above-entitled matter was concluded.) www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting March 11, 2020 149 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, FELICIA A. NEWLAND, CSR, the officer before whom the foregoing meeting was taken, do hereby certify that the meeting was duly sworn taken down by me; that the said meeting was taken by me in stenotypy and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my direction; that said meeting is a true record of the meeting; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by and of the parties to the action in which this meeting was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. FELICIA A. NEWLAND, CSR www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376