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Meeting

March 10, 2020
1

Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee

Moderated by Thomas J. Uram
Tuesday, March 10, 2020
1:02 p.m.

United States Mint
2nd Floor Conference Room
801 9th Street Northwest
Washington, DC 20220
(202) 354-7770

Reported by:
JOB No.:

Natalia Thomas
3954610

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A P P E A R A N C E S
List of Attendees:
CCAC Members:
Tom Uram, CCAC Chair
Mary Lannin
Dr. Larry Brown
Robert Hoge
Michael Moran
Dr. Dean Kotlowski
Robin Salmon
Jeanne Stevens-Sollman
Donald Scarinci
Sam Gill
Dennis Tucker
Mint Staff:
April Stafford
Greg Weinman
Jennifer Warren
Roger Vasquez
Ron Harrigal
Joe Menna
Betty Birdson

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A P P E A R A N C E S (Con't.)
Mint Staff:
Megan Sullivan
Boneza Hanchock
Public:
Brandon Hall, Coin Update and Mint News Blog
Maggie Judking, Numismatic News

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C O N T E N T S
PAGE
April Stafford

9, 13,16

Megan Sullivan

13,43

Tom Uram

52

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P R O C E E D I N G S
CHAIRMAN:

I'd like to give you an

overview of today's agenda for the CCAC.

Today, we're

going to review and have the approval of letters to
the secretary and the minutes from our January 21,
2020 meeting.

We will have a review and discussion of

the candidate designs for the Barbara Bush First
Spouse gold coin and bronze medal.

This will be

followed by open discussion of the CCAC on ideas and
to set up the recommendations regarding the -- program
and other matters that the committee would like to
discuss.
MR WEINMAN:

Tom?

Tom?

This is Greg.

For the record, would you call the roll?
CHAIRMAN:

Okay.

You want me to do

that again?
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. WARREN:
CHAIRMAN:
problem.

I'm sorry.

Please.
Yes.

Okay.

No problem.

No

I thought that you guys did it

in-house because you were there.

But we can do that.

So please respond "present" when your name is called.

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Sam Gill?
MR. GILL:

Present

CHAIRMAN:

Robert Hoge?

MR. HOGE:

Present.

CHAIRMAN:

Dr. Dean Kotlowski?

DR. KOTLOWSKI:
CHAIRMAN:

Mary Lannin?

MS. LANNIN:
CHAIRMAN:

Here.
Robin Salmon?

MS. SALMON:
CHAIRMAN:
for Don to catch up.

Present.

Michael Moran?

MR. MORAN:
CHAIRMAN:

Present.

Present.

Donald Scarinci?

Jeanne Stevens-Sollman?

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
CHAIRMAN:

CHAIRMAN:
DR. BROWN:
CHAIRMAN:

Present.

Dennis Tucker?

MR. TUCKER:

of the CCAC.

We'll wait

Present.

Dr. Larry Brown?
Right here.
And I am Tom Uram, the Chair

Welcome again and to all of our others

on the phone, are there any members of the press in

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attendance or on the phone -- well, it could be in
attendance down there, I suppose, but regarding on the
phone -- that would like to please state your name?
MR. HALL:

Yeah.

This is Brandon Hall

with Coin Update and Mint News Blog.
CHAIRMAN:

Thanks, Brandon.

MS. JUDKING:

Maggie Judking,

Numismatic News.
CHAIRMAN:
other press?

Okay.

Maggie, thank you.

Thank you very much.

Any

Finally,

I'd like to acknowledge all of the Mint staff that are
participating to those public meetings.

And we'll

start with April Stafford, the Chief Officer of Design
Management, and program managers from that office that
are in attendance:

Megan Sullivan -- is Boneza

Hanchock there today?
MS. HANCHOCK:
sorry.

Boneza.

And yes, she is.
CHAIRMAN:

Yes.

I'm

Thank you.

Pam --

MS. WARREN:
Oh.

Boneza.

Pam is not, but Roger is.

She might calling.
CHAIRMAN:

You're there?

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Okay.

Joe

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Menna, Mint Chief Engraver?
MR. MENNA:
CHAIRMAN:

Here.
Ron Harrigal, Manager of

Design and Engraving?
MR. HARRIGAL:
CHAIRMAN:

Present.

Jennifer Warren is here,

liaison to the CCAC.
MS. WARREN:
CHAIRMAN:

Present.

And our counsel to the CCAC,

Greg Weinman.
MR. WEINMAN:
CHAIRMAN:

I'm here.

Okay.

Present.

I'd like to begin

with events or any other issues that need to be
addressed at this point.

Okay.

Then the first item

on our agenda is to review and the approval of minutes
of secretary's letters from our last meeting.
comments on the documents?

Any

Hearing none, is there a

motion to approve the minutes and the letters?

Please

state your name when you're making any motions,
please.
MS. LANNIN:

Mary Lannin.

the letters.

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I approve

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9

CHAIRMAN:

And the minutes?

MS. LANNIN:
CHAIRMAN:
MR. MORAN:
CHAIRMAN:

And minutes.

Okay.

Do I hear a second?

Mike Moran.

Second

Mike Moran second.

All in

favor signify by saying "I."
(Votes were signified.)
Any negatives?
(No opposing votes.)
Motion carries without objection.

We now turn to the

business of the committee and April Stafford, and she
is of the Office of Design and Management and will
present the candidate designs for the Barbara Bush
First Spouse gold coin and bronze medal.
MS. STAFFORD:

Thank you.

April?
It is Public

Law 116-112 that authorizes the Secretary of the
Treasury to mint and issue gold coins honoring Barbara
Bush.

These coins are to be designed in the same

manner as the previously issued First Spouse Coins, a
program that ended in 2016 with the issuances -- with
the issuance of a coin honoring Nancy Reagan.

The

Mint will also produce bronze medal duplicates of

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these designs.

The design on the obverse of each coin

issued shall contain the name and likeness of a person
who is a spouse of a President during the President's
period of service, an inscription of the years during
which such person was the spouse of a President during
the President's period of service, a number indicating
the order of the period of service in which such
President served, and additional obverse inscriptions
to include:

LIBERTY, IN GOD WE TRUST, and the year of

minting.
The reverse of each coin issued shall
bear images that are emblematic of the life and work
of the First Spouse whose image is borne on the
obverse, and additional reverse inscriptions to
include:

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, E PLURIBUS UNUM,

TEN DOLLARS, 1/2 OZ., and .9999 FINE GOLD.

The same

obverse device will be used for both the gold coins
and the bronze medals without inscriptions, of course,
that would be inappropriate for nonlegal tender metal.
The gold coins are 1.043 inches in diameter, the same
size as the Presidential dollar coin.
medals are an inch and 5/16th.

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The bronze

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The Mint worked with the George and
Barbara Bush Foundation and the Barbara Bush
Foundation for Family Literacy in the development and
review of the design portfolios, and the family's
design preferences will be indicated.

The CFA

reviewed the portfolio at their February 20th meeting.
So we'll start with the obverse designs.
designs feature portraits of Mrs. Bush.

All obverse
I'd like to

note that the Bush family prefers design BB-O-01.
This obverse, Obverse 1, is also the CFA's
recommendation.

So we'll start with the Bush family's

preference as well as the CFA's recommendation,
Obverse 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11.
And on to the reverse designs.
Prompted by her son's diagnosis of dyslexia, Barbara
Bush took an interest in literacy issues and worked
with numerous literacy organizations during her public
life.

As First Lady in 1989, she founded the Barbara

Bush Foundation for Family Literacy, providing
educational opportunities for young children and their
parents.

Mrs. Bush believed that family literacy is

the key to solving many issues facing our nation:

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social and economic ability, quality of life, and
global competitiveness.

One in four adults in the

United States cannot read above a fifth-grade level.
And research has shown that the single greatest
indicator of a child's future success is the literacy
level of his or her parents.

Low literacy levels are

linked to poor health and fear economic opportunities.
By supporting early childhood education while
simultaneously educating parents of young children,
Mrs. Bush's work helps parents and children have an
equal chance to succeed in life.
So we'll start going through the
reverse options.

We'll start with Reverse 1.

This

design presents books in staircase formation
representing the steps to learning, freedom and
independence.

The first and most critical step to

progress is family literacy, as noted in the included
inscription.

The sunburst is a symbolic

representation of the power that learning and
education can provide.

Reverses 2 and 3 depict an

open book on a stack of books.

The inscriptions of

history and science on the spines of the books

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highlight their importance in the steps to learning,
freedom and independence.

The inscription of "Family

Literacy" is on spine of a book in Reverse 2 and arced
across the top of the more zoomed-in design of Reverse
3.

I'd like to note that Reverse 3 is the CFA's

recommended design and pause to ask Megan Sullivan,
who is the design manager for this program to note if
there are any comments that the Bush family or the CFA
had on this design.

I particularly remember you

noting, Megan, that the words history and science were
looked at.

Can you give us context to that?
MS. SULLIVAN:

Sure.

The family simply

mentioned in their review of the designs that they
thought it was perhaps confusing that the words
history and science were included on the spines of the
books.

The artist intended that just to discuss the

different things that literacy can bring you to
history and science, but the family thought that might
be confusing and confuse the idea of literacy.
MS. STAFFORD:

Thank you, Megan.

And

again, Reverse 3 is the CFA's recommended design.
Moving on, Reverse 4 features a contemporary image of

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an open book and a flame.
reading and literacy.

The open book symbolizes

The flame of knowledge, ignited

by reading and education, lights the way to a bright
future.

Reverses 5 and 6 show a person reading.

The

open book symbolizes literacy, education and
knowledge.

Reverse 5 depicts the person ascending the

stairs, symbolizing the journey to reach higher
understanding.

Reverse 6's figure has an open road

and a limitless vista before the person.

The road

symbolizes the journey of life, while the sun in the
distance is the promise of a brighter future.

Reverse

6, as seen here, is the Bush family's preferred
design.

Reverse 7 portrays the moment a child is

introduced to the world of books by an adult.
Together, they turn the page to their future.

The

inscription of "Family Literacy" is included.

Reverse

8 shows a mother, father and child all reading
different items such as papers and books.

The figures

are overlapped and stylized in a curved formation.
The mother's scarf is wrapping behind the father to
enclose the family unit and carry the audience's line
of sight back into the composition.

Reverse 9

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captures a family reading together.
of "Family Literacy" is included.

The inscription

Reverse 10

showcases book spines with the inscription of a
Barbara Bush quote, "Believe in something larger than
yourself."

A simple fleur-de-lis ties this reverse to

Obverse 4.

Reverses 11 and 12 feature wooden blocks

spelling out the word "Family."

These designs are

meant to encompass all members of the family, from
children to adults in the Family Literacy Program.

In

Reverse 11, this is achieved by showing different
elements evoking symbols of reading and writing, while
Reverse 12 shows both an adult and a child's hand
placing the blocks in a pyramid.
Mr. Chairman, that concludes the
candidate design review.
CHAIRMAN:

Okay.

Well, thank you.

Before I go on to anything else, did Donald join our
phone meeting

yet?
MR. SCARINCI:

Donald.

Yes, I'm here.

This is

I'm here.
CHAIRMAN:

So noted.

MS. WARREN:

And Tom, did -- sorry.

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This is Jennifer.

Did you --

CHAIRMAN:

Are there any questions from

the committee about designs in general for our
discussion?

And if there aren't let us begin our

consideration.

I'd ask that once again everyone to

please try and keep the comments to focusing on the
size and be conscious of our time element as well.
MS. WARREN:

Tom, this is Jennifer.

Can you make sure that pick Dean first because of the
time change?
CHAIRMAN:

Pardon me?

MS. WARREN:

Can you start with Dean in

comments due to the time change?
CHAIRMAN:

Sure.

MR. SCARINCI:

Dean, go ahead.

Can I make a point of

clarification first, please?
CHAIRMAN:

Sure.

MR. SCARINCI:

Do I understand that the

Bush family has a preference for Obverse 1 and Reverse
6?
MS. STAFFORD:
MS. WARREN:

That is correct.
Can you please speak up?

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MR. SCARINCI:

Yes.

Yes.

Would anyone

care to make a motion?
MR. MORAN:
will.

Donald, this is Mike.

I

-MR. GILL:

Donald, this is Sam.

I

would second.
MR. SCARINCI:
CHAIRMAN:

I support that motion.

Sam, would you also like to

make a comment on it since you've been involved in
administration as well as the director?
MR. GILL:

Sure.

Well, it's a real

pleasure for me to be able to participate in the
conversation about Barbara Bush.
and all five kids.

I knew the family

And the relationship has now

walked me through the years.

Not nearly as intimate

as the director has had, but they've touched a lot of
hearts through the years.
artists.

I also want to commend the

These depictions of Mrs. Bush are just

beautiful, and the No. 1 is just stunning.
captures her perfectly.

It

So I concur with Don and I

think we should accept the family's recommendation and
make that our own.

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MR. WEINMAN:

So just for

clarification, who made the motion and who seconded
it?
MR. MORAN:

Mike made the motion.

MR. WEINMAN:

Mike Moran gets the

motion.
MR. GILL:

Sam Gill seconded.

MR. WEINMAN:

Sam Gill seconded it.

Thank you.
MR. TUCKER:

Can we discuss before we

vote?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
think we need to discuss.
CHAIRMAN:

Yes, please.

I

This is Jeanne.
We're fine.

the table, but we can have discussion.

The motion's on
Go ahead.

MR. TUCKER:

This is Dennis Tucker.

MS. WARREN:

Please speak into the

phones, everybody, because it's very hard for the
transcriber to hear anyone.
MR. TUCKER:

This is Jennifer.
Thank you, Jennifer.

I'm recognized by the Chair.
CHAIRMAN:

Yes.

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MR. TUCKER:

I would love to have

discussion about these designs.

I appreciate and

respect the family's input, but I do believe that we
should have some -- before we make our recommendation
to the Secretary of the Treasury.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. TUCKER:

This is Jeanne --

This is what we're charged

with by Congress, and I think there are several of
these designs that deserve public discussion.
CHAIRMAN:

Jeanne, go ahead.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
and I have to agree with Dennis.

This is Jeanne,

You know, the CCAC

is charged with being a consultant.

And I think when

we rush into, you know, a quick vote and motions and I
think it is doing a disservice to our committee, and
also to our stakeholders.

So I think we do need to

discuss both the obverse and reverse for the record.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN:

Would anyone else like to be

MR. HOGE:

Yes.

recognized?
Hello, this is Robert

Hoge.

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CHAIRMAN:

Yes, Robert.

MR. HOGE:

Hello.

How are you?

I'm okay.

These are

nice designs and I do respect CFA and the family
selections, but I think these, for several reasons,
may not be the best possible designs for use on the
coin.

My own particular preference is for Reverse No.

1. It not only states "Family Literacy," which was
Barbara Bush's great goal, but it shows a variety of
books with the brilliant sunlight behind them.

And I

think this is the design that would show up better on
a coin than either Reverse 3, the CFA preference, or
Reverse 6, the family's preference.

The CFA

preference does include the history and science to
which the family has some reservations.

And Design

No. 6 utilizes a book of which the text would be so
incredibly microscopic that if there was even an
attempt to try to depict it, it would seem kind of
ridiculous.

And the road is just kind of a

distraction, and the flag -CHAIRMAN:

-- minutes assigned.

Now,

we need to stick to -MR. HOGE:

Oh, okay.

Well, I'm just

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suggesting that we not go ahead and select the reverse
design along with the obverse design.
CHAIRMAN:

Okay.

The maker of the

motion, Michael and Sam, want to split their motion up
that we look at each -- make a motion for each obverse
and reverse, and we'll vote accordingly?
MR. MORAN:

I would be willing to do

that.
CHAIRMAN:

Sam?

MR. GILL:

This is Sam.

CHAIRMAN:

Okay.

Sure, that's

fine.

motions now on the table.

So we have two

The two motions are to

accept the family's recommendation for the obverse,
and second motion is to select the recommendation for
the reverse.

So you're going to vote on two separate

motions as to we review obverse and reverse.

Would

you want to do a roll call vote, or would prefer -since we're on the phone, a roll call might be more
appropriate?
MR. WEINMAN:
CHAIRMAN:

Please do.

Okay.

Yes.

So we're going to do

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a roll call vote for the selection of Reverse
No. -MR. WEINMAN:
CHAIRMAN:
for the CCAC.

Obverse.

-- No. 1 to be the choice

Michael Moran?
MR. MORAN:

Yes.

CHAIRMAN:

Robert Hoge?

MR. HOGE:

Yes.

CHAIRMAN:

Mary Lannin?

MS. LANNIN:
CHAIRMAN:

Yes.

Robin Salmon?

MS. SALMON:

Yes.

CHAIRMAN:

Sam Gill?

MR. GILL:

Yes.

CHAIRMAN:

Dennis Tucker?

MR. TUCKER:
CHAIRMAN:
DR. BROWN:
CHAIRMAN:

Yes.

Dr. Brown?
Yeah.
Donald Scarinci.

MR. SCARINCI:
CHAIRMAN:

Yes?

Jeanne Stevens-Sollman.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Yes?

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MR. WEINMAN.
CHAIRMAN:

Okay.

Okay.

The motion -- and I

guess -- the motion passes unanimously.
DR. KOTLOWSKI:

Tom?

Tom?

You forgot

about me.
CHAIRMAN:

Dean -- okay.

Dean.

You're

even on my sheet.
DR. KOTLOWSKI:

Hopefully, you can hear

me.
CHAIRMAN:

Yeah, you're good.

You're

good.
DR. KOTLOWSKI:

Okay.

Yes.

Definitely

for No. 1.
CHAIRMAN:

Okay.

So the motion passes

unanimously regarding the obverse selection for the
design for the gold coin.

We're going to now go to

the second motion, which is a motion to review or -- I
guess this would be -- to accept Design No. 6, the
reverse Barbara Bush $10 gold piece.
on BBR-06.

So we are voting

We'll start with you, Dean.
MR. KOTLOWSKI:
CHAIRMAN:

No.

Michael Moran?

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MR. MORAN:

Yes.

CHAIRMAN:

Robert Hoge?

MR. HOGE:

No.

CHAIRMAN:

Mary Lannin?

MS. LANNIN:
CHAIRMAN:

No.

Robin Salmon?

MS. SALMON:

No.

CHAIRMAN:

Sam Gill?

MR. GILL:

Yes.

CHAIRMAN:

Dennis Tucker?

MR. TUCKER:
CHAIRMAN:

Dr. Brown?

DR. BROWN:
CHAIRMAN:

No.

Yes.
Donald Scarinci?

MR. SCARINCI:
CHAIRMAN:

Yes.

Jeanne Stevens-Sollman?

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
CHAIRMAN:

No.

And myself, yes.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 "no" votes.

So we have

Do you have that as

well, Greg?
MR. WEINMAN:

Yes.

So therefore, the

motion fails.

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CHAIRMAN:

Motion fails.

So we will

now turn to review the reverse designs for the Barbara
Bush gold coin.

And I will call on Dean -- Dr. Dean

Kotlowksi in the interest of time for you.
DR. KOTLOWSKI:

Yes, thank you.

I'm

getting my second wind, so I may be able to stay later
-- .

-- I might be a dissenting vote.

I looked in

all that incredible sunlight in 1, 2 and 3.

And

between 5 and 6, you know, being consistent with this,
I like 5, better.
moving image.

I thought that it was a really

I assume that's a child reading, and I

know it's sort of -- really read and walk up steps.
But the symbolism here of ascending to someplace -and I think that was a very powerful image for me.
also like No. 7.

I

I though that that was really moving

to have the hands here.

I know hands can be a little

cliche, you know, in this First Spouse series.

And as

I looked over them, the one that really got to me was
the -- image where you had just hands.

You had

Woodrow Wilson's hand on a cane, and you had her hand
on his hand.

And I thought that that was very moving.

And this is a little bit like that.

You really see

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the interaction of the family without seeing the
family.

And it also brought to mind -- I don't have

children, but I have four nephews, and I would read to
them, and that was very moving.

And I'm not sure this

is going to get much support, but I kind of like No.
10.

This is a quote from Barbara Bush.

books and the way they're assembled.
the idea of literacy.

I like the

I think you get

Again, I -- all of the others,

for one form or another fall down.

I going to give a

little bit more credit than I would have to No. 6
because the family liked it.

It's similar to No. 5.

I think if we go for No. 2 -- and I don't know where
this is going to go.

But when you have family

literacy -- history and science on the spines of the
books, it looks like family literacy is the subject.
And I thought that that was not a good message.
those are my -- .

So

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIRMAN:

Thank you, Dean.

MR. GILL:

Well, Mr. Chairman, I have

already made my case for No. 6.

Sam?

I like it, I think

it's -- it captures what she wanted and that is to
have children read.

And I like the fact that he's

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going off into the sunset and hopefully have a
brighter day.
were good.

So again, I think that some other ones

It's not that I don't think that.

think that this is a particularly good one.
captures what she liked.
children.

I just

It

She liked to read with

I've seen her do it.

So that would be my

thought.
CHAIRMAN:

Thank you, Sam. Michael?

MR. MORAN:

Thank you, Tom.

drawn to 6 for two reasons.

I was

One, it managed to get

the story about -- any inscriptions whatsoever other
than what was necessary, mandated by law on the
reverse of the gold coin.
MS. WARREN:
up?

Sir, can you please speak

We're losing you.
MR. MORAN:

It is not --

how about

that?
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. WARREN:
MR. MORAN:
CHAIRMAN:
clear.

No.
Still very faint.
Oh, let's see.

I can hear you loud and

It must be coming through on those --

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MR. MORAN:

Okay.

Well, my point is, I

like the fact that there are no additional
inscriptions here.
allegory

It is a simple subject.

The

-- across without a lot of explanation,

whereas some of the others require it.
reasonably original.

It's

It is on a par, at least, with

all the others, if not better than some of them.

And

the other reason, because I was at one point in this
same position going to the Theodore Roosevelt family
for their suggestions for the Edith Roosevelt coin.
You need to respect the family.

It is this case, it

is the direct children, and this is their mother.
I result of that, I vote for No. 6.

And

And I will give

all my votes to No. 6 and nothing to anything else.
CHAIRMAN:

Okay.

Thank you, Michael.

Dennis?
MR. TUCKER:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My reluctance over Nos. 5 and 6 are several.

The fact

that we're not specifically calling out family
literacy in these two designs is aloofness, I believe.
Barbara Bush's foundation and her focus was not only
on literacy.

By that, I mean she didn't focus on

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literacy all by itself.

Her focus was on family

literacy, and on the dangers of the generational cycle
of illiteracy.

When a parent can't read, then it's

likely that the children won't read.

And that causes

a cycle of poverty, of homelessness, and other
societal ills.

So this isn't just literacy for the

sake of reading for pleasure.

Barbara Bush connected

literacy to the family unit, and she connected it to
the greater American Society.

So I do think that it's

important for the design of the coin and metal to
embody that concept of family literacy.
of these two designs has that.

Neither one

The person who's

walking and reading could be an adult, it could be a
young adult, it could be a child; that's not quite
clear from the illustrations.

Just from an artistic

viewpoint -- and Jeanne, I'm probably preempting
something that you would agree with as an artist -the that the left hand is depicted means that this
person's arm is really just physically bent in a way
that it would not be if you were holding a book in
front.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

It's too long.

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MR. TUCKER:

And as been mentioned, you

know, you don't read while you're walking, at least
when you're walking upstairs, so that was another
weakness that I found with those two designs.
I'm going to -- your fondness for Reverse 7.

Dean,
My

daughter is four years old, and part of our nighttime
routine is, as we're getting ready for bedtime, we
read at least five or six books every night.

And

that, for me, is captured by Reverse 7 very eloquently
and very elegantly.

We have a child's hand.

The

child is following along with a story in this book,
getting ready to turn a page, probably.

And then you

have the grown-up's hand taking the page that has just
been turned.
together.

So we know that this is a family that's

And both of them are benefiting from that

interaction, which was another aspect of Barbara
Bush's focus on literacy.

She knew that literacy was

something that grown-ups could learn as their children
are learning.

So if a mother or father is at a low

literacy level, reading with their children helps them
at the same time.

So I really think that No. 7

captures everything that Barbara Bush focused on when

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she focused on family literacy in a much stronger way
than 5 or 6 do, in a stronger way than No. 3 does.
No. 3 has the words "Family Literacy," but the design
is bit Bohemian.

It's not very inspired.

apologies to the artist.

My

I think it's well-drafted.

It's a nicely drawn concept, but it just doesn't have
the emotional appeal that No. 7 has.

I think that No.

8 is very well drawn, and I think that's a nice
design.

It's too busy for the small canvas that we'll

be dealing with with the gold coin.
rendered piece of artwork.
thoughts.

But is a nicely

And that concludes my

I strongly feel that Reverse 7 is the best

in this portfolio.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIRMAN:

Okay, Dennis.

Thank you.

Donald?
MR. SCARINCI:

So I'm supportive of 6

because 6 is the one that family selected, and I think
particularly in this case, we really need to honor
that.

I also think that when I look at the other

designs, I can't really make a strong enough case that
one of the other designs, you know, has sufficient
artistic merit to, you know, to supersede the family's

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choice.

And If felt that it did, you know, then, you

know, as, you know, as I have in other instances, I
would be making that argument.

So let's look at some

of the designs because -- let's look at some of the
other designs for just a second.

You know, and I

think we have to discount, you know, the -- as much as
I think that the ones with the blocks are -- I
actually love them, 11 and 12.

I think they're great.

You know, it doesn't quite hit the mark with the book.
So as much as I love those two designs, for this
particular coin and for this particular purpose, I
would discount that.

For No. 9, you know, everybody

knows what I'm going to say about No. 9.

The figures,

you know, this might be great if it was a dollar, you
know, if it were a larger palette, you know.
just too small for this palette.
No. 8.

This is

You know, ditto for

There's too much going on for this palette.

Although I think 8 happens to be very creative, you
know, if it were a dollar, you know, if it were a
bigger palette, you know, maybe, you know, maybe I'd
be happier about it, but I'm not.

I do kind of

like -- I forgot to include ones that said -- the one

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with the stack, you know, is, you know, probably has
no chance.

I kind of like the stack, you know?

I

just don't like it for this coin because it doesn't
really achieve the family literacy theme I think that
Dennis really looking for.

And I think what Dennis is

really attracted to about No. 7 is, you know, it
really kind of spells out family literacy.

And, you

know, and so rather than leave it to -- leave family
literacy to the imagination, you know, the way 6 does,
you know -- it kind of gives you the book, it gives
you the hands.

It has the, you know, it has the young

hand and the old hand, you know, and it spells out the
words "Family Literacy," you know.

That's nice, but,

you know, 6 gives you, you know -- what makes 6
interesting is it gives you that element of
abstraction, you know?

And it gives you that winding

road towards the future.

It gives you those rays, you

know, those bright rays of the sun in the horizon
indicating, you know, the future and how family
literacy, you know, gives you a bright future, gives
you hope, you know?

It seems to me that's what

Barbara Bush and the Bush family was about, you know?

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And I remember, you know, even though I'm in the
opposite party, I respect George Bush and I remember
George Bush the dad, and I remember Barbara Bush.
there was a lot of hope, you know?
optimistic people.

And

They were very

And there's always hope.

There

was always, you know, something about the future.
coins like this talk about the future.

And

So something

like -- something with that, you know, with that
winding road and those rays of sunshine.
of get that in 6.

So you kind

You also get it in 1, 2 and 3.

get it in the flame of No. 4.
stairs of No. 5, you know?

You

And you get it in the

So what you don't get in 4

and 5 is you don't get the family literacy spelled
out.

You don't get that in 4, 5 and 6.

You know, you

do get it spelled out in 1, 2, 3, and you of course
get it spelled out in the one that Dennis likes, No.
7.

So I just like the added symbolism that you get in

1, 2, 3 and 6.

So for me, if I were to go with 1, 2,

3 and 6, you know probably if I were to pick it -- if
it were me to pick it -- I'd be advocating No. 1 just
because I think the floating books are cool.

You

know, I might even talk about No. 3 because it's fewer

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books, and maybe in No. 1 somebody might say there's
too many books and I might get lost on the small
palette.

You know, but I'd be splitting hairs to

argue for 1 or 3 versus 6.

So I guess in summary,

since I can't really passionately say that either 1 or
3, you know, is better just because they have "Family
Literacy" spelled out on them than 6, I think 6 does
the trick.

And I think there's nothing wrong with 6.

And if the family, you know, spent time thinking about
it, and this is what they want, you know, to
memorialize, you know, this great person, you know,
throughout time, I think we give it to them.
what I think.

That's

I'm done.
CHAIRMAN:

Thank you, Donald.

Dr.

Brown?
DR. BROWN:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

For

the sake of brevity, I'd like to number one, thank all
the artists because they did a splendid job.

I -- my

appreciation for -- comments from my fellow members of
the CCAC.

And I'd like to -- that typically, I

generally shy away from a lot symbolism.

But I must

confess that I think Option 6 represents that about

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the future, represents that growing toward the future.
And because of the fact that it was selected by the
family, that would be my selection.

And like one of

my colleagues, I'm going to give all my votes to that
and no votes to the others.
CHAIRMAN:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Dr. Brown, thank you.

Jeanne?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
Chairman.
Donald.

Thank you, Mr.

I have to agree with Dennis and with
I was impressed very much with No. 1 because

it was a stairway to knowledge and literacy.

I think

that was an interesting way to acknowledge this task.
And I also like No. 3 mainly because it was an
interesting design.

I do have -- what's history and

science being on the bindings.

And then when we get

to No. 4, I just don't think that that has any merit
in my opinion.

Five and six, I feel that -- I'm not

quite sure if this is a juvenile person or a child
holding the book.

I don't think it tells you that

this is about family literature.

So those two, even

though 6 is the family preference, it's not mine.
However, I do go down to Dennis' choice, which is No.

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7.

We definitely know that this is, you know, an

adult and a child and we're talking about family
literacy, and I do like to see that text on there
because it explains what this coin is about.

And 5

and 6, in my opinion, do not.

So I like to have the

text as an explanation point.

In No. 10, when I first

opened this portfolio, was the one that I really
gravitated toward.
very much.

I like this quote by Barbara Bush

However, it doesn't really express the

fact that this is about family literature.

So I'm

going to have to with 1, 3 or 7 and leave 6 behind.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
CHAIRMAN:

Okay, Jeanne, thank you.

MR. HOGE:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Robert?
I

agree with many of the comments made by my colleagues,
and I'll quickly go through my own feelings about each
of these designs.

No. 1, as I specified, is actually

my preference, although I do like some of the others a
fair amount, too.

No. 2 and No. 3, I don't

particularly care for that image of the book on end.
It just looks like something bad is happening to the

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book, and there tends to be a little worry there.

No.

4 is worse, and that's maybe like a conflagration of
books with a fire behind it, maybe.

No. 5, at first I

didn't realize this was supposed to be stairs.

I

thought that maybe it's some of kind unusual window
blind.

But if it is stairs, then this girl reading on

them is an accident waiting to happen.

No. 6, I do

like the idea of giving deference to the family's
preference and it's a charming kind of thing, reading
for the future.

But this could be looked at in a

variety of different ways.

The way the sun is

represented is like the Imperial Japanese designs from
the period that we know before and during World War
II.

And I personally don't really care for the

combination of realism along with just the linear,
abstract interpretation of the road.

In that we're

talking about a road and a book, maybe this is an
homage to Jack Kerouac.
this as Dennis

-- .

I don't know.

It's really kind of a beautiful

concept, the hands and the book.
books -- these are blank pages.
of all these things.

No. 7, I like

But these are
It's the tabula rasa

So maybe this is good, but when

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it says, "Family Literacy" and there's nothing there
that one can read which is -- to be read, I just have
reservations about that.

Having a big blank space in

the middle of a coin or medal I think is probably not
a very good idea.
dramatic of these.

No. 8 is certainly the most
But again, I agree that this is

probably just too busy for a small size piece like
this, and it doesn't really say anything particularly
that can relate directly to Barbara Bush.

You know,

we see people here, and we see a lot of static energy
in the designs and what appear to be books or
documents, but I think it just is inappropriate.
9, for me, just doesn't do the trick.

The image goes

with the inscription of "Family Literacy."
fine.

No.

That's

But these things are just too small for a tiny

coin of this kind.
kind of flat.

And the image is just -- really is

No. 10, I do like.

the things a little bit.

It kind of crowds

And one aspect that is

favorable for me is the fact that it is a true quote
from Barbara Bush, "Believe in something larger than
yourself," and that's a beautiful sentiment.
think this one would work.

And I

I thought No. 1 seemed a

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little bit more powerful and actually referred to the
family literacy in giving the -- to the image of the
books through their spines.

No. 11 and No. 12; this

would be okay if it was celebrating kindergarten or
something like that.

But I think for the Family

Literacy Program, looking at blocks doesn't do a whole
lot.

Overall, these are not unattractive images.

although I do like a number of the concepts here,
think I have to go for No. 1.
CHAIRMAN:

But
I

Thank you.

Okay, Robert, thank you.

Robin?
MS. SALMON:

I was drawn initially to

No. 10 and I like the stacked books, that design.
I also really like the quote from Barbara Bush.

And
Going

to back to No. 6, in honoring the family's wish, I
could accept that image if the quote was the lettering
on the pages of the book, so that we actually have the
child reading something that is visible.
holding the coin can read that as well.

The person
Several of

the other designs are interesting, but I think they
don't quite punch what they need to punch.

So either

No. 10 or No. 6 with the change that I suggest is what

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I would go for.
CHAIRMAN:

Okay, Robin, thank you.

And

Mary?
MS. LANNIN:

I'm going to echo what

Robert said at the very, very beginning -- .

For me,

the best design is the simplest, which I think is No.
1.

It says, "Family Literacy."

The books provide

sort of a curved staircase as you're elevating
yourself by reading and you're walking up toward the
future.

I didn't care at all for 4 or 5 or 6.

I

don't know what that person's supposed to be doing.
There's a disembodied arm in both 5 and 6.
say "family literacy" anywhere.
suggestion of No. 7.

It doesn't

I like Dennis'

I don't necessarily think you

have the hand to turn that page.

Maybe some images a

little more strongly than that great skill that we've
got.

But it's quite obvious that that's a hand and a

very small child, a toddler.

I think that the Design

No. 8 is very intriguing but will completely get lost.
Nine was acceptable because it said family literacy.
I agree with Robin.
quote.

I really did like Barbara Bush's

But I think that singly the most important

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thing to say is family literacy.

So that leads me all

the way back to No. 1, which I think is a very clever
use of the words books and it gets our mind going as
to what the rest of the books could be.

So I'm going

to through all of my weight behind No. 1.
CHAIRMAN:

Thank you.

Okay, Mary, thank you.

As I

was looking through the designs as well, I think Dr.
Brown and a number of you have echoed this, what the
artists have really done some great and positive
designs here for this particular coin.

And I

originally was also -- I really like No. 10 as it
relates to -- I think this artist needs to bring this
design back.

I think somebody said that earlier.

I

think that it doesn't hit literacy, though, because
it's more of on a -- it can be construed as a
religious affirmation as well, but the concept, I
think, is really nice.
to No. 6 as well.

But it drives me back, then,

And I think Robin had mentioned

about putting some words on maybe on the left side or
right side.

You could do a "Family Literacy" in the

book, and then it would be part of the design if it's
chosen.

That would be up to Joe and the team to

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decide that.

I'm going to just say that I'm probably

going to go with No. 6 as it relates to the selection.
Before I do ask for you guys to do your
voting, Megan, you were pretty much involved in
discussion with the family?
MS. SULLIVAN:

I worked through a

liaison with the family.
CHAIRMAN:

Okay.

This Design No. 6, is

it a strong choice, or is there -- did they give you
any sense of options or can you tell us why, maybe,
they chose this design?
MS. SULLIVAN:

The comments that I got

back from the liaison was that they were happy with
the portfolio and that they were really pleased to
make their two recommendations.
phrased to me.

And that's how it was

Unfortunately, I don't have any

additional information for you and our liaison is
traveling today so is unable to be on the phone.
CHAIRMAN:

Okay.

MS. WARREN:

Thank you.

Tom, before we move, can

we open the floor to Joe Menna, the Chief Engraver,
for any comments?

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CHAIRMAN:
MR. MENNA:

Sure.
Hi, guys.

I wanted to

withhold anything until everyone spoke.

Of course, I

recognize that I'm not a committee member.

I'm just

an art director, but, you know, I think that the
Bush's are very sophisticated people, so I'm really
pleased by their choices.

I think the Obverse 1 which

was already a motion and there's no discussions on it,
but it's eminently sculptable, the most sculptable of
the batch, with all of the planes and the structure
and the lightness, which it captures very well.

I

think No. 6, just stating art-wise, the art is fine.
The art is fine.

The letters are fine.

We've done

that small lettering on books many, many times before.
It shows up as scribbles or something, but it's
legible as text.

You couldn't actually put the full

family literacy text on there.
like giant block letters.

Then they would look

The sunset has been

represented like that on coins before.
a device used from World War II.

It's not just

And if you think

about symbolism as art, which it is also, the child is
the seed of family literacy, or the foundation of it

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in many ways.

People talked about No. 7.

There's

nothing sculptable on the surface of those pages.
They're absolutely blank.

You can't sculpt that.

can't add it with a laser texture.

You

So that's really

not a viable candidate in terms of, you just have a
blank book there.

And No. 10, those horizontal

objects won't read like books on a coin.

Especially

when you have a lot of devices facing the wrong way.
Like, the one line's facing up, one's facing down.
The other elements are all facing sideways instead of
up, you know, whereas they would be if they were
vertical on a shelf.

And just the way that the spines

themselves are depicted isn't really clear enough to
be recognized as anything other than maybe stacks of
like, some time of material rather than the books.
I'm not saying it's poorly done, I'm just saying it's
not going to read well like books, like you might
think.
to say.

From my point of view.

And that's all I have

I appreciate your time.
CHAIRMAN:

Thank you, Joe.

MR. TUCKER:

Mr. Chairman, this is

Dennis.

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CHAIRMAN:

Yes, go ahead.

MR. TUCKER:

I have a question for Joe.

You said that No. 7 is not sculptable.

But you've

consistently told us in the past that designs proposed
in these portfolios are ones that are presented
because they are doable by the Mint Staff.
MR. MENNA:
MR. TUCKER:
MR. MENNA:

-- being the art director.
I'm sorry?
I'm looking at it -- now

I'm looking at it at a scale that I may have not
looked at it before.
contract sheet.

I'm looking at it on the

So if bad information was presented

before the committee, I would take exclusive
responsibility for that.
MR. TUCKER:

So are you saying that

there's nothing that can be done with the empty spaces
on the pages of that book in No. 7.
MR. MENNA:
MR. TUCKER:

We could put text on it.
The -- is excellently

done.
MR. MENNA:
book --- .

It would be like the other

It's totally illegible.

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MR. TUCKER:

Okay, that's fine.

As

long as it can be understood that there's text on it
and it's not just a blank page.

You would be able to

give the viewer enough to see that they would
understand that this is a book of some sort that is
being read.
MR. MENNA:

Sure.

But I wouldn't want

to presume what the artist's artistic intention would
be.

And I would leave that up to the -- respect to

the individual artist to decide what that would be.
MR. TUCKER:

Okay.

Because in the

blown-up, six-inch version that we received in our
portfolios, we do see things like a butterfly and leaf
and the letters A, B, C, D, E, F and shapes, and other
symbols of literacy.

Obviously, those would not be

visible on a tiny gold coin, but -MR. MENNA:

I guess, you know, we could

scratch this in, and it would be, you know, somewhat
legible.

Let me backtrack a little bit.

I just don't

think it -- I think it -- I don't think it reads as
clearly as it could.
MR. TUCKER:

Okay.

Thank you, Joe.

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appreciate that.
MR. MENNA:

Let me super backtrack.

mean, Dennis, if we had to -- no.
work.

Let's put it like that.

way to make a work.

I

We always make it

We've always found a

But I just don't think this is an

optimal solution at this point.
MR. TUCKER:

Okay.

Thank you, Joe.

Mr. Chair, one other thing I'd like to say.
must strongly advocate for Reverse 7.

I really

And I

appreciate Joe's further input on the design and
sculpting aspect, but from a content perspective, the
reason I'm much more strongly focused on Reverse 7
than 5 or 6 -- or the family's preference of 6 -- is
that Barbara Bush's focus was specifically about
family literacy.
children.

Family literacy.

Reading aloud to

She read books aloud on Mrs. Bush's Story

Time, her radio program, right?

Reading is not a

solitary pursuit in this type of focus on family
literacy.

In No. 6, you have a person who is pursuing

reading as a solitary pursuit.

In No. 7, you have the

concept of family literacy; a grown-up and a child
engaging in the act of reading, probably reading

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aloud, as Mrs. Bush advocated.

I think the symbolism

in No. 6 is nice and it does what it does, but it
doesn't really speak to what Barbara Bush's focus was
when it came to family literacy; that's interaction,
reading aloud to children, reading together.

And not

the solitary pursuit of walking down the road a book
in front of you.

I think No. 7 elegantly speaks to

what she focused on.

That's why I think that that No.

7 and even No. 9, you know -- and the interaction in
No. 12 -- these are ones that speak to that concept.
It's more than just reading, it's -- here.
CHAIRMAN:

Okay, Dennis.

Thank you for

those comments.
DR. KOTLOWSKI:
CHAIRMAN:

Tom?

Yes?

DR. KOTLOWSKI:

Tom, it's Dean.

Can I

be recognized?
CHAIRMAN:

Certainly.

The Chair

recognizes Dean.
DR. KOTLOWSKI:

To reiterate what I

said before, I just want to, you know, endorse what
Dennis.

I mean, anybody who has read to a child and,

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you know, had that experience.
think No. 7 really resonates.

I think that that -- I
And I'll leave it at

that.
CHAIRMAN:

Okay.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
-- this is Jeanne.

And if I can just

Can I just jump in and comment on

the fact that I do appreciate was Dennis says about
the family reading together and this says "child," and
it says, "adult."

Dennis, thank you very much for

your thoughtfulness and articulation about this.
Thank you.

I like No. 7.
CHAIRMAN:
MR. MENNA:

Thank you, Jeanne.
Can I say one last thing?

This is Joe.
CHAIRMAN:
MR. MENNA:

Go ahead.
I wanted to clarify that --

and I don't mean to imply that I didn't do my best or
that I had a wrong opinion before, it's just that when
you look at things over distance and time, sometimes
you get different -- varying opinions that you
previously.

So I just want to make that correction.
CHAIRMAN:

No problem.

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If there isn't, we could take a five-

discussion?

minute break and allow all of the members to forward
their score sheet to Greg Weinman.
MR. WEINMAN:
CHAIRMAN:

Yes, please.

And if you have a problem

regarding the way to do it, then we will work with
you.

But if you have the ability, please go ahead and

forward that over.

We'll just take, maybe, five-

minutes, and then -MS. WARREN:

We'll start back up about

2:05.
MR. WEINMAN:

Or a little later.

It's

going to take a little while.
CHAIRMAN:

If we can start our

discussion while you're -MR. WEINMAN:
makes sense.

Calculating?

Sure.

That

But everybody, please send the ballots.
(Off the record.)
CHAIRMAN:

Go ahead.

MR. WEINMAN:

Okay.

With the ballots

that are scoring in -- on the screen?
has 11 points.

Design No. 2 has 0.

Design No. 1

Design No. 3 has

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2.

Design No. 4 has 0.

Design No. 5 has 3.

Design

No. 6 has 16, which is the highest point total.
has 11.

No. 8 has 1.

No. 11 has 1.

No. 9 has 1.

And No. 12 has 1.

No. 7

No. 10 has 8.

So the recommended

design based on your criteria would be Reverse No. 6.
CHAIRMAN:
much.

Okay, Greg, thank you very

Are there any motions?

Okay with that, all the

discussion's concluded, then we will now move into
some other information and other business that we have
in front of the committee at this time.
We will open the floor now to the
CCAC -- for discussion of the general topics that we
have in our packets.

And for today's discussion, the

CCAC will be discussing the current proposed
legislation for commemorative coin programs starting
in 2022.

Per the CCAC operating procedures, Section

5135, Title 31, United States Code, the CCAC is
responsible for advising the Secretary Treasury "with
regard to the events, persons or places that the
advisory committee recommends be commemorated by the
issuance of a commemorative coin in each of the five
calendar years succeeding the year in which the

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commemorative coin design is made" and the minting
level for any commemorative coin recommended.
Our Legislative Director, Jennifer
Warren, in Intergovernmental Affairs.
the CCAC as a liaison.

She serves with

Jennifer will briefly explain

what is currently proposed in Congress, and then we'll
move on to discussion.

Jennifer?

MS. WARREN:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

As the committee is aware, Congress has passed
legislation for the commemorative coin program through
2021.

The 2020 upcoming programs are the Basketball

Hall of Fame and the Women's Suffrage centennial
commemorative coin.
reviewed.

Both coins the CCAC already

The 2012 programs are the Christa

McAuliffe, and the National Law Enforcement
commemorative coins, which the CCAC will be reviewing
both design portfolios later this year.

Currently,

Congress has six appending legislation for a
commemorative coin program for 2020.

We will start

the discussion today of the bills appending for the
2022 and allow the members to have a discussion on
these bills to provide any comments or input.

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of all these bills were provided to the members ahead
of today's meeting.
Briefly, the six bills include:
H.R. 5873, Harriet Tubman Commemorative Coin Act that
would be to celebrate the 200th anniversary of the
birth of Harriet Tubman.

The legislation allows for

$5 gold coins, $1 silver coins, and half-dollar clad
coins.

The design is to be emblematic of the legacy

of Harriet Tubman as an abolitionist.

And at least

one obverse design shall bear the image of Harriet
Tubman.
H.R. 3483, Integration of Baseball
Commemorative Coin Act, that would celebrate the 75th
anniversary of the integration of the game.

The

legislation also allows for $5 gold coins $1 silver
coins, and half-dollar clad coins.

The legislation

mandates the coins are to be square, including
denomination with a dollar sign and number, common
reverse design of a baseball diamond, and a common
obverse, which would be emblematic of the integration
of the game of baseball through a design competition.
H.R. 4681, The National World War II

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Memorial Commemorative Coin Act, would commemorative
the national World War II Memorial.

The legislation

allows for $5 gold coins, $1 silver coins, and halfdollar clad coins.

The design of the coin should be

emblematic of the national World War II Memorial, and
the service and sacrifices of American soldiers and
civilians during World War II.
Senate 2815, The National Purple Heart
Honor Mission Commemorative Coin Act, would celebrate
the 15th anniversary of the opening of national Purple
Heart Hall of Fame.

The legislation allows for $5

gold coins, $1 silver coins, and half-dollar clad
coins.

The design of the coin should be emblematic of

the mission of the national Purple Heart Hall of
Honor.
H.R. 5537, Conan Commemorative Coin
Act, to commemorate the operations of Conan, the
military working dog of the U.S. Special Operations
forces.

The legislation allows for $5 gold coins and

$1 silver coins.

The design should be emblematic of

the life and legacy of Conan.
Senate 2042, which recently passed in

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the Senate with a modification, is the Negro Leagues
Baseball Commemorative Coin Act, that would recognize
the 100th anniversary of the establishment of the
Negro National League in 2020.

The legislation is

amended to be in 2022 commemorative coin program.

The

legislation allows for $5 gold coins, $1 silver coins,
and half-dollar clad.

The design should be emblematic

of the Negro League's Baseball Museum in its mission
to promote tolerance, diversity, and inclusion.
Additionally, in 2022, there are
several historical events that are not limited to but
include, of course:

the 200th anniversary of the

birth of Harriet Tubman, the 240th anniversary of the
American Bald Eagle as our national symbol, the 50th
anniversary of President Nixon's trip to China, the
75th anniversary of the National Security Act, the
Charles Schultz Centennial, and the Lincoln Memorial
Centennial.
With that, I ask Mr. Chairman to open
the conversation on the appending legislation and any
other potential commemorative events for 2022.
you.

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CHAIRMAN:

Thank you, Jennifer.

Would

anyone care to start off the discussion?
MR. MORAN:

This is Mike.

We're

getting into rut of common obverses across the threecoin sets and I think we saw particularly most
effectively was the Boys Town coins that if you do
that, you're unable to tell a full story.
just cut yourself off that flexibility.

And you

We saw the

same thing come up with the -- Hall of Fame where they
had locked themselves in and regretted it after the
fact.

I don't know how you stop that.

But we

certainly should, in the future, encourage these
people not to dictate common obverses or common
reverses across the three-coin set.
CHAIRMAN:

Yeah, I agree.

I think --

although the Boys Town told a really nice story, if
you recall.

That's the one with the -- had the really

nice silver dollar with the young lady under the tree
and then you turned it over and the whole tree -- .
That one told a nice story.
MR. MORAN:
CHAIRMAN:

We won an award with that.
Yes.

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MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
CHAIRMAN:

That's right.

And so I think that -- I'll

throw one out and everyone, if you'd like to make a
comment on a couple of them.

I think the -- you know,

animals sell, and we haven't done much regarding that.
And the Conan dog I think would be an interesting
story to tell as well.

And you could not only have a

dog but maybe others, live people, as far as telling
that story.

And, of course, the Charles Schultz.

I

mean, it doesn't get much more American than that, and
there could be some interesting thoughts put behind
that.

So I think if we want, maybe we could send

Jennifer some more specific thoughts on some of the
legislation as you have it.
Jeanne, were you going to say
something?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

No, I just agree

with you, Tom, that we do -- we haven't done any
animals and I think that we should look to those
issues.

And also, you know, having just done a

marvelous baseball coin, I'm not sure with these two,
you know, legislative proposals that we should, you

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know, consider them.

Although I love the fact that we

might be doing a square coin.
CHAIRMAN:

I think that's cool.

That would be neat.

Some

other thoughts?
MS. LANNIN:
CHAIRMAN:

This is Mary.

Go ahead, Mary.

MS. LANNIN:

Okay, thanks, Tom.

If we

do explore the Charles Schultz coin, I have to sort of
advocate for him because he's from St. Paul, Minnesota
and so am I.

I think what we're seeing is other

countries have done really well copying action figures
or cartoons or whatever.

And to work with the

Schultz' on licensing the image of Snoopy would make
that an incredibly popular coin.

So I just wanted to

mention that.
CHAIRMAN:

I agree.

And marketing

could do well with that as well.
MR. HOGE:

This is Robert.

idea and we can incorporate animals.
Snoopy.

I like this

It's not only

Maybe Woodstock.
CHAIRMAN:

Right.

Right.

There could

be a whole -- as we were saying -- a whole series.

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MR. HOGE:

Correct.

CHAIRMAN:

A whole story.

story within the series.

A whole

I think -- yes?

MR. GILL:

Dennis, you were going to --

CHAIRMAN:

Sam -- first -- Sam, go

MR. GILL:

All right.

ahead.
I'm just going

to add something about Charles Schultz that not many
people know, but he gave a substantial amount of money
to the National D-Day Memorial in Bedford, which means
a lot to a lot of people in that part of the world.
And it's almost anonymous.

I know this for sure.

I

know he came there -- or, maybe he didn't even come
there, but he was so taken of the idea.

I think he

started the fundraising out with a million dollars.
So I just wanted to -CHAIRMAN:

That's a great point.

another thing that might not be known.

And

I'm involved

with an organization called TDI, which is called
Therapy Dog International.

And he and his wife were

extremely involved in the founding of this in
California that's now all over the entire country for

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people that need therapy dogs and they have places
where these dogs are trained, and so forth.

So if you

want to look up Therapy Dog International, you'll
probably see a lot of reference there.
MR. TUCKER:

Thank you.

Dennis?
Would it be

appropriate for us to comment on specific wording in
some of these bills?

Because I have some

observations.
CHAIRMAN:

Jennifer, it would probably

be better if those go directly to you as it relates to
-- these are all pending.
Jennifer.

I mean, it's your call,

You can handle that however you want to

handle it.
MS. WARREN:

For it to be a

recommendation from the CCAC, either to the committees
or through your report to Congress, it would have to
be on the record here.

We can always accept those

comments, and if we do get asked to comment on these
bills -- we could incorporate those.

But I would

suggest if there's any strong feelings to do a motion
and we can sign a letter to the committees to make
them aware of any necessary changes.

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CHAIRMAN:

Dennis, did you have

anything specific that we'd at like to at least have
on the record?
MR. TUCKER:

Well, yes.

I will be

judicious in my comments, then, and just try to touch
on the more important ones.

And others I can

communicate to you, Jennifer, and you can maybe vet
them for whether they should be given to Congress.

In

the Harriet Tubman legislation, on page 4, line 15 and
16.

The phrasing of the legislation uses the term

"colored people," and as a publisher of history
books -- or, nonfiction books -- this is something
that -- this kind of language is something that comes
up every once in a while.

I don't know if "colored

people" is the best phrasing or terminology to be
written into this legislation.
historical.

It's most likely

You know, that was probably how her home

for the aged and indigent was termed at the time.
that should be something worth thinking about.

But

Under

Section 4, the same legislation for the design of the
Harriet Tubman coins.

It says that, "The designs of

the coins minted under this Act shall be emblematic of

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the legacy of Harriet Tubman as an abolitionist."

And

I wonder why the wording is so specific there after
the rest of the preceding narrative describes her role
not only as an abolitionist but also an advocate of
women's rights, an advocate of women's suffrage, an
advocate for the elderly.

It just seems unusual for

me that the specific wording here says that the coins
must "be emblematic of her legacy as an abolitionist."
Certainly, a great legacy, but only part of what has
been spelled out in the preceding narrative of the
legislation.
MS. WARREN:
may -- this is Jennifer.

That may -- sorry.

That

Just so you know, I think

that might be because of the recipient organization
that receives it, that they focus on that area.
we can always point that out to them.

But

But sometimes

they do make it more specific because of sort of the
audience they think they're addressing through the
recipient organization.
MR. TUCKER:
that clarification.

I thank you, Jennifer, for

So it may have been purposeful,

but with three coins to tell her story, it does seem

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like we have an opportunity to expand the focus and
talk about what she did with the elderly, the women's
rights, suffrage movement, and things other than
abolition.

For the Integration of Baseball bill,

under Section 3, Coin Specifications.
3, lines 15 and 16.

It says that the coins "shall be

approximately the same size."
curious wording.

This is on page

I thought that was

I don't recall ever seeing similar

wording in numismatic legislation.

Is there some

reason why that would be in there?
MS. WARREN:
We're not sure.

This is Jennifer again.

We have actually brought that issue,

especially because of the half-clad, to them because
there are some conflicting language.

So we have

actually, as The Mint, had -- flag that for the
sponsors.

But thank you.

I'm not quite sure.

I

think it has more to do with them wanting it square
and making it the -- I think it's the obverse, where
they want it to be a diamond depicting a baseball
diamond.

And they just wanted to -- .
MR. TUCKER:

Maybe they meant the same

shape rather than the same size.

On page 5, under

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Design of Coins, page 5, line 6, where it says,
"Citizens Commemorative Coin Advisory Committee,"
which I think was the old -- or, the name of our
predecessor committee.

That should be corrected.

MS. WARREN:
too.

We already noted that,

Thank you.
MR. TUCKER:

getting nit-picky here.
granular.

And I apologize if I'm

I will try not to get too

Under line 10, under Designations and

Inscriptions, it says that the designation of the
value of the coin "shall use a dollar sign and numeral
rather than spelling out the denomination."

I think

that will be problematic for the half-dollar because
that would require the coin to have a dollar sign,
0.50, or some similar text rather than just the word
"half-dollar."

So maybe that needs to be modified to

include the half-dollar - or, to exclude the halfdollar from that.
I don't have anything on the
Integration of Baseball bill.
For the National World War II Memorial
bill, it's -- I struggle with the concept of a

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commemorative coin program that commemorates not a
person or concept or thing, but rather a place or an
object.

I mean, this legislation is worded to

commemorate not World War II but the memorial to World
War II.

I think that's an interesting -- it's almost

a conundrum.

But anyway, the design requirements of

this bill, I like fact that there are no -- it doesn't
call for any common designs, which gives more
flexibility.

For the Purple Heart bill, the wording

calls for this to honor or recognize the -- or be
emblematic of the mission of the National Purple Heart
Honor Mission.

And according to Sections 2(a), 2(b),

the mission is
to -- part of the mission is to ensure that all
recipients are represented, to ensure that all
recipients of the Purple Heart from all branches of
service and across -- are represented.

So I wonder if

Section 4 -- I just wonder if this program is going to
be able to make sure that everybody is represented the
way the mission -- of the mission specifies, if that
makes sense.
Oh, for the coin for the military

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working dog, there was some language that's a little
bit problematic.

Under Section 2, Findings, it gets

very graphic about the death of al-Baghdadi.

It

specifically mentions that he killed himself and his
three children.

I believe the -- actually, the number

of children that were killed was two, according to the
U.S. Central Command.

So that should be clarified.

That's according to General Kenneth McKenzie, who
revised initial statements on October 30.

Earlier

indications -- that there were three children, but he
clarified that there were two.

To the best of my

knowledge, those children were under the age of 12.

I

don't understand why that has to be brought up in this
legislation.

I'll be honest with you, I found that

very offensive.

The wording under number four in the

five things about Conan, it uses language like
"heroic" and "sacrifice."

And in my opinion,

animal -- and I love animals. I'm a dog person.

But

animals don't have the cognitive agency that we
generally ascribe to concepts like bravery, which we
might define as being afraid but still taking action,
right?

That could be a definition of courage or

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bravery.

Animals don't have the cognitive agency for

deliver of self-sacrifice.

So a lot of this wording

starts to give human elements or personifications to
an animal.

I just found it a bit strange.

Under

Design and Inscriptions, it specifically calls for an
image of Conan based on the photograph of Conan
released by President Trump on Twitter.

I think we

should point out that this was actually a doctored
photograph of President Trump awarding the Medal of
Honor to James McCloughan, who was an Army medic who
saved the lives of 10 people during the Vietnam War.
That photograph was doctored so that the dog is over
the medic's figure and the President is putting the
medal on the dog rather than on Mr. McCloughan.

So I

wonder if our audiences might start to feel that some
of this language and this imagery is a bit
disrespectful to service members.

That's something

that concerned me as I was reading the legislation of
this particular bill.

I do like the idea of honoring

dogs that are working members of the military branches
and services.

I think that's a good goal.

wonder about this particular bill.

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For the Texas Rangers --

conclude then.

MS. WARREN:

We're not doing 2023 yet.

MR. TUCKER:

Okay.

Well, I will

Thank you for your time and for

indulging me with those comments.
CHAIRMAN:

Thank you, Dennis.

other thoughts or discussion?

Any

We can also -- since

Dennis has brought things up, we can then follow up
with any additional comments that you might want to
forward to Jennifer regarding any specifics discussed.
MS. WARREN:

If there's anything

specific, we need to -- it has to be a consensus of
the CCAC.

So just like every discussion, we can

forward some of this, but if there's a particular
like -- if it seemed like people were supportive of
maybe Congress considering the Charles Schultz coin,
if there's a motion to bring that forward and if
there's a consensus by the committee, we can do that.
CHAIRMAN:

I think going forward --

Mary, would you -MS. LANNIN:

So you would like me to

make a motion for the Charles Schultz coin.

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a single coin, Jennifer, or was that a series?
CHAIRMAN:

It was three.

MS. WARREN:
there is no coin.

It -- the Charles Schultz,

It was an anniversary that Dean

brought up that happens in 2022.

So it would be a

suggestion to Congress if they would consider.

That

is part of your purpose is that you can recommend
ideas to Congress.

And then there might be a member

of Congress or the committee that will actually
consider that, and then draft something -- the
organization for it.

But it is -- this is just one

idea that you call could present.
MS. LANNIN:

Do I need to make a motion

for that to happen?
MS. WARREN:
the CCAC.

We have to have -- yes.
CHAIRMAN:

second it.

Well, it's a consensus of

Mary, if you do that, I'll

And make it a three-coin series, suggested

as a three-coin story.
MS. LANNIN:

Yes.

I will make a motion

that we celebrate Charles Schultz with a series of
three coins -- gold, silver and clad -- in celebration

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of all the love and worth he's brought to America with
Snoopy and his pals.
CHAIRMAN:
discussion?
vote.

I'll second that.

Any

At this time, then, we'll just take a

All those in favor, signify by saying "I."
(Votes were signified.)

Any opposed?
MR. SCARINCI:
a vote on that.

I'll record [ph] and do

-- a vote -- Donald.
CHAIRMAN:

Okay.

And so this is just a

suggestion to -- everything that we're talking about
at this point is totally just from suggestions so that
we can also include it in the Congressional record and
the annual report at the end of the year.
any other motions?

Are there

We always bring more up at the

next meeting, or we can have a special meeting if we
would want to discuss any of these further.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
speaking.

This is Jeanne

And so what we are doing now is trying to

discern which one of these coins we are actually going
to strike, or -CHAIRMAN:

-- totally from a suggestion

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from the committee that we would be in support of a
particular topic.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Okay.

So if I

can support the Conan Commemorative Coin Act, I would
like to put that out.

Because what that would to is

to help people understand how important it is to train
these dogs, to have them represent our country, to
have them protect our servicemen.

And also, it would

sort of go hand-in-hand if we'd go for it with this
Charles Schultz piece and work with the therapy dogs.
It would get the public to understand how important
dogs are to our community, more than just a pet, which
is a good thing.

But you know, they are working dogs,

so they should be treated as -CHAIRMAN:

As such.

So Jeanne has a

motion to go forward with the Conan bill regarding
services dogs, military dogs, etcetera.
MR. GILL:

I would second that.

CHAIRMAN:

Sam Gill seconds.

favor, signify by saying "I."
(Votes were signified.)
Any negatives?

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DR. BROWN:

Mr. Chair I would like to

abstain, as a point of clarification.
CHAIRMAN:
point of clarification.

Go head, Dr. Brown.

Your

Go ahead.

DR. BROWN:

Of all these programs, is

it true that only two would go forward?
MS. WARREN:

Correct, sir.

So Congress

can only pass two commemorative coins for a release
year.

And once again, this is not you deciding it,

it's just suggestions of you seeing merit to some of
these that are out there currently in Congress.

Or

proposing, should be.
DR. BROWN:

Well, on that note, I'd

like to make a suggestion, Mr. Chair -- .
currently we have a baseball coin.

You know,

But baseball in

general is not the same as how parts of our community,
parts of our population, to have been involved in
baseball.

It's really America's story that I think

sometimes needs to be told because we seem to lose
that aspect of The Great American Pastime.

So I do

understand that -- to have two programs, but it seems
to me to have these two programs merged into one would

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provide that opportunity to tell that part about The
Great American Pastime.
CHAIRMAN:
point of clarification.

Okay, Dr. Brown.

Another

Jennifer, can we --

obviously, this is legislation that is pending, is
that -MS. WARREN:
has been introduced.

It is already either -- it

It may have even been voted on.

As I said, the Negro League Baseball Commemorative
Act, amended, has already passed the Senate and is now
pending in the House.
CHAIRMAN:
this.

Okay.

So let me ask you

Are we allowed to, then, suggest more than two

of these programs?

Is that all right?

there's numerous ones out there.

Because

We could essentially

-- that we're in favor of all of -- or something to
that effect.

In other words, are we limited to

just -MS. WARREN:

Right.

No.

You're not

necessarily saying these are two you should be.

You

can say that there's merits to, you know, we think
there's value to these three or four or five, or one.

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And it's more of just -- it's more of you giving your
input of what you think should be recognized, things
that should be out there.

And then, of course, if

there's -- as you mentioned, there are some issues
with some of these, that you would maybe want to.

So

even if it was saying we support a baseball coin with
these themes, but we don't particularly think both of
them should be passed, that's something that could be
even mentioned.
CHAIRMAN:

Okay.

How about -- Dr.

Brown, would it be okay we'll finish this motion up,
and then if you'd like to make one in favor of the
baseball one, we'll move on to that one?
DR. BROWN:

All right.

I would be

happy to do it, Mr. Chair.
CHAIRMAN:

Okay.

So would you like to

-- how would you like to vote on the current one that
would be on your point of information here for the
Conan?
DR. BROWN:
concerned.

I must confess, I'm a bit

Given the fact that as much as we're

giving our opinions about these various programs, we

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are facing the reality that only two can go forward.
CHAIRMAN:
pending.
that.

Right.

And they are

So we can't change anything as it relates to

We can only lend support.
MS. WARREN:

You can recommend it.

So --

Sorry.

Let me clarify.

If they are pending, you can

provide a letter to the committee suggesting that some
modification be made or some correction as, like I
said, the Negro Baseball League Commemorative Coin.
Before it was voted on they amended it going onto the
floor.

So there are opportunities, if you see there

needs to be a clarification or changes that can be
brought forward.

And we can do it sooner than later

through a letter to the committees.
CHAIRMAN:

Correct.

And that's why

we're discussing it.
MS. WARREN:
CHAIRMAN:

Correct.

Let's finish.

All those in

favor of the second vote, signify by saying "I."
(Votes were signified.)
Any opposed?
(None opposed.)

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Okay.

Now, moving along.

Dr. Brown, regarding the

baseball coin, would you like to make a motion?

Now,

what I would suggest after these are done -- review
the legislation, similar to what Dennis has reviewed
already on a couple of them, and make any additional
comments back to Jennifer, because we can do that now
that we've gone on record with these.

So Dr. Brown,

would you like to make a motion regarding the baseball
coin act?
DR. BROWN:
used that as an example.

Mr. Chair, actually, I only
Because I'm not convinced,

and I'm kind of torn because I want to tell the story
about --.

Harriet Tubman just also moves me as well.

So -- I wanted to really focus on the baseball, but I
would rather focus on the part of American history
that often is untold.
CHAIRMAN:
DR. BROWN:

Okay.
In that respect, I'm sort

of torn between that and Harriet Tubman's story.

And

I thank Dennis for his comments because -- but I think
Dennis' comments are really well deserved and
authoritative -- really tell the story.

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make sure we take care of these granular issues that
can be misinterpreted.
CHAIRMAN:

Sure.

Or left out.

This is

something -- you know, this helps The Mint reinforce
some of the things that need to be done.

Because

sometimes they get a lot of push-back from some people
in Congress who might not want to change their bill or
adapt a bill so that it's successful.

So this is an

opportunity for the committee to make those final -added a little bonus to make sure that these programs
are successful.

So with Dennis's comments also be

able to make any -- it will help provide any necessary
adjustments that need to be done on any of these
bills.

So thank you for time.
DR. BROWN:

Mr. Chair, I don't mean to

prolong this conversation, but I'd also like to
suggest if either of these programs go forward, that
we try to time the release around the Black History
Month the year that they're going forward.
CHAIRMAN:

Okay.

Usually, that would

be left up to the stakeholders, Jennifer, is that
true?

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MS. WARREN:

It's usually with the

recipient organization and the -CHAIRMAN:

I'm sorry.

Go ahead,

Jennifer.
MS. WARREN:

We usually try to time it

early in the year because it is only allowed to be
sold within that given year.

So The Mint, depending

on their schedule, the design schedule, and the
interest of the recipient organization, we take all of
those into effect.

So as you see, the Basketball Hall

of Fame is coming out during March Madness.
usually would be a little bit earlier.
that timing because The Mint.

It

But because of

So it would be input

from the stakeholders when they want to actually
release it.
CHAIRMAN:
before the committee?

Okay.

Anything else to come

I'd like to thank everyone.

If

there's nothing else to come before the committee,
then we can obviously continue further discussion on
any of these topics at any of the meetings, or we can
have a special meeting, if so needed.

I'd like to

thank Brandon and Maggie and all those media that were

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on the phone.

And if there's nothing else, we will

not adjourn, but we will resume our discussion and
reconvene tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m.

Everyone okay

with that?
CHAIRMAN:

Okay.

Talk to you all

tomorrow.
(Whereupon, the meeting concluded at
2:48 p.m.)

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CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC
I, NATALIA THOMAS, the officer before whom
the foregoing proceedings were taken, do hereby
certify that any witness(es) in the foregoing
proceedings, prior to testifying, were duly sworn;
that the proceedings were recorded by me and
thereafter reduced to typewriting by a qualified
transcriptionist; that said digital audio recording of
said proceedings are a true and accurate record to the
best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am
neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any
of the parties to the action in which this was taken;
and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of
any counsel or attorney employed by the parties
hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the
outcome of this action.
NATALIA THOMAS
Notary Public in and for the
District of Columbia

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CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER
I, SANDRA J. EARLY, do hereby certify that
this transcript was prepared from the digital audio
recording of the foregoing proceeding, that said
transcript is a true and accurate record of the
proceedings to the best of my knowledge, skills, and
ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to,
nor employed by any of the parties to the action in
which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a
relative or employee of any counsel or attorney
employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or
otherwise interested in the outcome of this action.

SANDRA J. EARLY

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