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Capital Reporting Company
Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting 06-27-2016
1

CITIZENS COINAGE
ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

902 North Cascade Avenue
Colorado Springs, Colorado 80907

MONDAY, JUNE 27, 2016
6:00 PM

Reported by:

Martha Loomis, CSR
Capital Reporting Company

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Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting 06-27-2016
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A P P E A R A N C E S
CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE:
Chair Mary Lannin
Robert Hoge
Erik Jansen
Steve Roach
Donald Scarinci
Jeanne Stevens-Sollman
Dennis Tucker
Tom Uram
Herman Viola
Heidi Wastweet
UNITED STATES MINT:
Betty Birdsong
Pam Borer
Don Everhart
Ron Harrigal
April Stafford
Megan Sullivan

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P R O C E E D I N G S
CHAIR LANNIN:
to say thank you.
Good evening.

Good evening.

I would like

It's nice to see a live audience.

It's nice to see a live audience.

This is the meeting of the Citizens Coinage
Advisory Committee.

It's being held in Colorado

Springs.
It does need to be louder.

Okay.

Let's

start all over again.
Okay.

I'd like to call to order the

Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee, United States
Mint, here in Colorado Springs.

Thank you very much

for the audience who is here.
Okay.

The members that we have present are

Robert Hoge, Erik Jansen, Michael Moran, Steve Roach MR. ROACH:

Hi.

CHAIR LANNIN:

-- Donald Scarinci, Jeanne

Stevens-Stollman, Dennis Tucker, Thomas Uram, Herman
Viola, Heidi Wastweet, and I'm Chairman, Mary Lannin.
And I would like to ask Donald to say a few words
about --

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MR. SCARINCI:

Before we begin, I'd like to

offer a moment of silence for Chet Krause.
giant among giants in numismatics.

He was a

And we all owe him

the greatest of debts, and America owes him the
greatest of debts.
I'd like to offer a moment of silence.
Thank you.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Can the people who are on the

phone with us this evening please state their name and
affiliation?
MR. GILKES:

Paul Gilkes, Coin World.

MR. GILPIN:

Rob Gilpin, North Light

Commission, Block Island.
MR. BOWERS:

Dave Bowers, Wolf Hollow, New

Hampshire.
MR. ADLER:

Mike Adler, Coin News.

MR. KRUMENAKER:

Bob Krumenaker, National

Park Service of Apostle Island National Lakeshore.
CHAIR LANNIN:
thank you.

We have any more?

Okay,

Welcome.

All right.

Before we start our meeting, I

would like to have a really big thank you to the

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American Numismatic Association, to Kim Kiick and to
Susan McMillan and to Amber Bradish, who really helped
us set this entire thing up.
It isn't always easy to do a roadshow, and
there's lot of hard work that went on behind this.
And so a big thank you for being our hosts.

Thank

you.
(Applause.)
CHAIR LANNIN:
to fill tonight.

Okay.

We've got a big plate

Tonight what we're going to do in

this session is review and discuss the candidate
designs for the 2018 America the Beautiful Quarters
Program.
There will be a review and discussion for
candidate design for president Barack Obama's
presidential medals, both the first and second terms
of office.
There will be a discussion about the future
palladium program with the United States Mint.

And

we're going to have a brief update on the 2017
American Liberty high relief 24 carat gold coin.
So Mint staff, do we have any questions?

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Any comments?

We're all good?

Okay.

So the first item on our agenda is the
discussion of the letter to the secretary, the minutes
from our previous meeting, and these were in your
binders. Have you had a chance to take a look at them?
Erik, I know you had a comment you wanted to
make.
MR. JANSEN:
missing.

There was a section that was

On the motion following the score on the

2017 high relief reverse second paragraph, it's
missing a second.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

Any other comments?

We'll check that out.
Okay.

No further

discussion, I move to approve the minutes.
MR. JANSEN:
CHAIR LANNIN:

Second.
Second?

Okay, okay.

those in favor please signify by saying aye.

All
Opposed?

(Vote.)
CHAIR LANNIN:

The ayes have it.

Okay, because we have so many designs that
we're doing for the 2018 America the Beautiful
Quarters Program, what we're going to do is vote at

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the very end rather than interrupt five separate
quarter discussions.

So I just wanted to let people

know about that.
So April, I'd like to ask you to begin
talking about that program.
MS. STAFFORD:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The America the Beautiful Quarters Program
is a multi year initiative authorized by public law
110-456, the America's Beautiful National Parks
Quarter Dollar Coin Act of 2008.
The act directs the United States Mint to
mint and issue 56 circulating quarter dollars with
reverse design emblematic of a national park or other
national site in each state, the District of Columbia,
and the US territories.
The quarters are issued sequentially each
year in the order in which the featured site was first
established as a national park or site.

The coins

obverse continues to feature the familiar portrait of
George Washington by John Finnigan including
inscriptions United States of America, Liberty, in God
we Trust, and quarter dollar, the reverse inscription

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or the designation of the site in the jurisdiction,
the year of minting or issuance, in this case 2018,
and e pluribus unum.
We have invited each of our site liaisons
for the five quarters that we'll be reviewing to join
us on the call.
us.

So we hope to have each of them with

I'll pause and invite them to make comment after

I introduce their site.
So we'll start first with Pictured Rocks
National Lakeshore in Michigan.

Pictured Rocks

National Lakeshore in Michigan, located on the coast
of Lake Superior, is a narrow strip of a park that
hugs the coastline for more than 40 miles.

The

shoreline consists of 200-foot high colorful sandstone
cliffs, numerous beaches, and 300-foot tall sand
dunes.
I'll go ahead and scroll through the
designs, and then hopefully the site liaison will be
with us and make a few comments.
We'll start with Design 1.

This depicts two

people in sea kayaks exploring the waterways of
Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore.

This is one of two

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second choice designs of the Pictured Rocks liaisons.
Design 2 features a man in a sea kayak
paddling near Miners Castle.
Design 3 depicts a stylized Chapel Rock and
the white pine that stands upon it being battered by
waves during the storm.
Design 4 features a kayaker appreciating the
beautiful mineral streaks that line the cliffs of
Pictured Rocks.

Design 4 is one of two second choice

designs of Pictured Rocks liaison.
Design 5 and 6 depict views of Pictured
Rocks. This is Design 5 and 6.
Design 7 depicts a robin, the state bird of
Michigan, on a birch tree branch with the cliff walls
in the background.
Design 8 depicts Chapel Rock and the white
pine tree that grows at the top.

This is the

preferred design of our Pictured Rocks liaison as well
as the Commission of Fine Arts recommendation.
Design 9 depicts a kayaker paddling towards
Lovers Leap.
No. 10 features a deer with the cliffs in

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the background.
No. 11 depicts the point of view of a
kayaker pausing to take in the sights of Lovers Leap.
No.

12 depicts Chapel Rock with the white

pine growing atop.
And 13 features a view of the cliff at
Pictured Rock.
Now I would like to ask if Susan Reece, the
chief of interpretation of Pictured Rocks of National
Lakeshore is with us.
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. STAFFORD:

Susan, are you with us?
Susan?
Okay.

We'll invite the

community for comment.
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. STAFFORD:

Go forward.
Okay.

Apologies.

Let's move forward to Apostle Islands
National Lakeshore, Wisconsin.
I'd like to note for the Committee that
Apostle Island and Pictured Rocks are considered
sister parks, so you'll see some similarities in the
depictions.
Apostle Islands National Lakeshore in

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Wisconsin includes 21 islands in Lake Superior and a
12-mile long strip of mainland shoreline.

The park

features pristine stretches of sand beaches and coves,
spectacular sea caves and the largest collection of
national registered lighthouses and lighthouse
complexes in the national park system.
Design 1 depicts two kayakers paddling
toward the rock formations at Devil's Island.

This

design is the second choice of Apostle Islands.
Design 2 features a kayaker gazing in wonder
at the setting with rock formations and a lighthouse
behind him.
Designs 4 and 4-A feature a sea arch topped
with a variety of trees growing atop.
4.

This is Design

In this design, a pair of kayakers paddle toward

the arch, and 4-A.
Design 5 and 5-A feature a view into a
crevasse in the sea cave.

In Design 5, a pair of

kayakers begin to paddle towards the opening.

This is

Design 5 and 5-A.
Skipping to Design 9 and 10, these designs
depict the sea cave at Devil's Island with the

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lighthouse in the background.

In Design 9, a kayaker

paddles by, and 10 features the added inscription,
Jewels of Lake Superior.
If we could go back please to Design 9, I'd
like to note that this is the preferred design of
Apostle Islands.

It is also the Commission of Fine

Arts recommendation.
Design 11 features a kayaker passing through
a sandstone arch at Devil's Island.
Okay, I'll pause and see if we have the
superintendent from Apostle Islands National
Lakeshore, Bob Krumenaker.
MR. KRUMENAKER:
MS. STAFFORD:

Are you here?
I am on the line, yes.

Thank you.

Would you like to

make a few comments to the Committee?
MR. KRUMENAKER:
opportunity very much.

Well, I appreciate the

We have enjoyed working with

the Mint staff and the artists on these.
I think all of them are good.
some similar aspects of the park.

They reflect

Like we saw at

Pictured Rock we are a coastal area where we have
beautiful rock formations.

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I'm actually quite pleased that Pictured
Rocks selected something very different from what we
are recommending, so there's very little chance that
people would be confused if these are the two designs
that we have.
But the preferred Design No. 9 is, reflects
really three iconic things in the park all at once and
quite accurately.

The sea caves at Devil's Island,

the lighthouse which dates from 1891 at Devil's
Island, and of course the kayakers.
We like that design very much.

And we look

forward to your comments on it.
MS. STAFFORD:

Thank you.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you.

MS. STAFFORD:

Moving on to Voyagers

National Park in Minnesota, this park protects over
200,000 acres of land.

And is comprised of miles of

undeveloped shoreline with hundreds of islands and
numerous large lakes.
The combination of rocky shoreline, the
meeting of southern boreal and northern hardwood
forest and the open water creates a distinct home for

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many different species of wildlife.
Design 1 depicts a campfire in a ring in
front of a lake with small islands in the distance,
and the northern lights visible in the sky.
Design 3 pictures an eagle soaring above the
interlocking network of lakes in Voyagers National
Park. In its talons it clutches a walleye, the state
fish of Minnesota.
Design 4 depicts an aerial view of the
network of lakes of Voyagers National Park.
Design 5 features a view of a few of the
small islands found in the waters of Voyagers National
Park. This is the preferred design from our Voyagers
liaison.
Design 6 depicts a common loon with a rock
cliff in the background.

This is the recommendation

by the Commission of Fine Arts.
So now I will ask if the chief of
interpretation at Voyagers National Park, Tawnya
Schoewe, are you with us?
Okay.

Moving on to Cumberland Island

National Seashore.

This seashore is in Georgia.

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one of the largest and ecologically diverse barrier
islands on the Atlantic coast.

It protects the

largest designed wilderness area on the east coast
barrier island, and also contains a rich concentration
of cultural resources recounting 4,000 years of human
habitation.
Design 1 features an adult and young child
walking through the live oak trees of Cumberland
Island. This design is the preferred design of our
Cumberland Island liaison.
Design 2 depicts sea oats holding the windshaped dunes while gulls fly overhead.
Design 3 depicts a loggerhead sea turtle
swimming along the undeveloped beach of Cumberland
Island. This design is the third choice of Cumberland
Island.
Design 4 features two brown pelicans on the
beach of the island.
Design 5 depicts a blue heron capturing a
fish in the marsh waters along the western edge of the
island.
Design 6 depicts a snowy egret posing on a

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branch on the edge of a salt marsh ready for flight.
This is the second choice of our Cumberland Island
liaison, and the recommendation of the Commission of
Fine Arts.
Okay, moving on to Design 8, this depicts a
Loggerhead sea turtle nesting on Cumberland Island.
Design 9 features a quiet moment as a
visitor enjoys the wind, surf, and abundant wildlife
of Cumberland Island.
Design 10 features a couple watching the
sunrise over the Atlantic ocean, the beginning of
their day of shell hunting and exploration.
Design 11 depicts a close-up view of the
Dungeness ruins.
No. 12 features a photographer exploring the
twisted branches of live oak trees and sand dunes that
line the boardwalk path to the beach.
No. 13 depicts a woman walking along the
beach in a gentle breeze while a sea turtle nests in
the sand.
No. 14 features a photographer exploring the
flora and fauna surrounding the ruins of the Dungeness

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mansion.
I'd like to ask if Gary Ingram,
superintendent of Cumberland Island National Seashore,
are you with us, Mr. Ingram?
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. STAFFORD:

Mr. Ingram?
Okay.

We'll move on to Block

Island National Wildlife Refuge, which is in Rhode
Island.
This is a critical migratory bird stopover
point on the Atlantic coast.

The islands are known

internationally for spectacular birdwatching and
breathtaking vistas along the barrier beaches.
Design 1 features a pair of piping plovers
flying near the nesting areas on Block Island,
footprints form a path towards the North Light
lighthouse.

This design is the second choice of Block

Island.
Design 2 depicts a black crowned night heron
flying over a view from the beach at Cow Cove looking
toward Sandy Point.

The North Light lighthouse is

seen in the background.

This design is the preferred

design of Block Island as well as the recommendation

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of the Commission of Fine Arts.
Design 3 features a mother piping plover
with four chicks.
Designs 4, 4-A and 5 feature two piping
plovers flying over the North Light lighthouse.

This

is Design 4, 4-A, and 5.
Design 6 and 7 feature a mother piping
plover with her young on the shore in front of North
Light.

This is Design 6 and Design 7.

And in this

design, two American oystercatchers fly overhead.
This design, Design 7, is the fourth choice of Block
Island.
Design 8 depicts a pair of common yellow
throat warblers over the roaming landscape with the
North Light lighthouse in the background.
Designs 9 and 10 feature piping plovers on
the rocky beach in front of the North Light
lighthouse.

This is Design 9 and Design 10.

This is

the third choice of Block Island.
And Design 11 depicts a piping plover being
banded as part of the conservation efforts to study
migratory bird patterns.

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So now I'll pause to see if our outreach
coordinator with the Rhode Island National Wildlife
Refuge Complex, Janice Nepshinsky, are you with us?
MR. WEINMAN:

Janice?

MS. STAFFORD:

Okay.

We'll pause for

Committee comment.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Do we have any technical

discussions about these before we begin the
discussion?
MR. JANSEN:

In general we haven't

entertained designs that had bled outside the circular
area of these quarters.

We've got a number this time

that bleed out.
Any issues there with relief?
something that we want to entertain?

Is that

It's kind of

something out of normal.
MS. STAFFORD:

I would add, before I pass it

to Don Everhart, that we have actually broken the
border on several designs in this year, yes.
Do you want to comment on that?
MR. EVERHART:

Yes.

We would like to lower

the relief towards the edge so it wouldn't be a

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problem.

I think it adds to it myself as to the

composition.

It creates more of an impact, I think.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Any other questions?

Okay.

We are going to discuss our voting procedure
here a little bit.

We have traditionally voted 3 for

the most popular, then 2, 1, and zero.
And I've asked a subcommittee to be formed
consisting of Erik Jansen, Michael Moran, and Heidi
Wastweet to work and fine tune this, and to come up
with some really great ideas.

I'll ask Heidi to

explain it to us, please.
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you.

So to when we begin our selection process,
we're going to start with what we call a culling
process.

So as we had a chance before our meetings to

review these designs, we each pick out some favorites
and some not favorite.
And so in order to save time and negative
comments, we will not be discussing designs that no
members are interested in.

And we will just focus on

the designs that any one of us deems to be a viable
choice.

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And the way we do that is the chairperson
will go through each design.

And by a show of hands,

if we have even one single person that's interested in
that design, it will stay in the discussion.

If there

are no hands, the design will then be set aside.
When it comes to the scoring process, we
have a zero to 3 score that we can give each design, 3
being the highest score, meaning this is a very
excellent design, and I support it to my fullest.
score means it's an adequate design.
fine.

A 2

I think it's

A 1 score means it's barely adequate and of

course a zero means we would not like to see this on a
coin.

This is the way that we nail down and select

the best design for the program.
As a second step, we're also going to, as of
today, start a second process where next to the score
we're going to give a simple checkmark next to those
designs that we want to give a merit.
A merit means that we admire this design; we
like the effort that the artist put forward, but we
think that, for whatever reason, it's not quite right
to be chosen for this project.

We like to give this

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kind of feedback to the artist so that they know where
to concentrate their efforts in the future, what we
like, what we don't like.

It's a way to get a little

report card back that helps them out.
The other thing that we're going to do is,
when there are designs that are submitted as
variations of themselves, sometimes those compete
against each other. And by variation, I mean it may be
just a cropping in or a slightly different angle,
maybe one element is removed; basically the same
design, but just offering us some different options to
look at.
We're going to, as of today, try scoring
those together as a set.

And then if that is chosen,

we'll decide which variation we want so that those are
not competing against each other but working together.
Did I cover everything?
CHAIR LANNIN:

I think you did.

Jeanne?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

One thing, one thing

we really didn't discuss is when we cull the design,
that obviously gets a zero on our checklist.

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So do you want to put that in your notes
that we're not going to score ones that we cull?
MS. WASTWEET:

We will note for the ones

that we cull because that means no one is interested
in that design, but the design still eligible for a
merit.
We think it's not right for this program and
therefore we don't want to discuss it, but maybe
there's something about the design that we think
deserves some mention, we'll give it a merit; it's
still eligible for that.
MR. SCARINCI:

Technical question.

So a merit is a like.
to put the like?

And where do we want

You want to put it on the same side

where it's described, and not by the scoring?

Okay.

Everybody understand that we put the like by
the where the -CHAIR LANNIN:

Numbers are.

MR. SCARINCI:

Where the numbers are?

All

right.
This is the first time we're doing this
procedure, so it's the first time.

The culling by the

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way is the CCAC version of the purge so where artworks
will die.
MS. WASTWEET:

I want to add that, because

we're giving merits this time, just put your scores on
the designs that you have a strong preference for so
we have a little more concentrated scoring, all right?
CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

So I would like to

begin with Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore,
Michigan.

Begin with No. 1.

Anybody have any

interest in No. 1, in retaining it?
MR. JANSEN:

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:

No. 2?

MR. SCARINCI:

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:

No. 3?

MR. MORAN:

No.

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:

No. 4?

MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:

No. 5?

MS. WASTWEET:

Keep in 5.

CHAIR LANNIN:

All right, Heidi, 5.

No. 6?

No. 6 is out.

None for 5.
Sorry.

No. 7?

No. 7's out.

No. 8?

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THE PANEL:

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. TUCKER:

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:
11. No. 11 is out.

No. 10 is out.

No.

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

No. 10?

No. 12?

THE PANEL:

Okay.

No. 9?

And No. 13?

No. 13 is out.

Let's go to Apostle Islands, please.

Any interest in keeping No. 1?
MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:

I'm sorry, what?

MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:

No. 2?

MR. TUCKER:

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:

No. 4.

MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:

4-A?

MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

MR. MORAN:

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:
5-A is out.

No. 5?

No. 5 is out.

No. 9?

MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

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CHAIR LANNIN:
Nothing for No. 10?

No. 9 is in.

No. 11?

No. 10?

No. 11 is out.

Okay, Voyagers National Park in my home
state of Minnesota.
No. 1, please?
MR. MORAN:

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. TUCKER:

No. 1 is in.

No. 3?

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:

No. 4?

No interest in No. 4.

No. 5?
PANEL:

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:

And No. 6?

MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

Seashore in Georgia.

No. 1?

MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:

No. 2?

MR. JANSEN:

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:

No. 3?

MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

MR. MORAN:

Cumberland National

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:

No. 4?

No. 4 is out.

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No. 5?

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Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting 06-27-2016
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MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:

No. 6?

PANEL:

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. ROACH:

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. TUCKER:

No. 13?

No. 9?

No No. 9.

No. 10?

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:
No No. 12.

No. 8?

No. 11?

No No. 13.

No No. 11.
No. 14?

No. 12?

No No. 14.

Final one, Block Island National Wildlife
Refuge in Rhode Island, No. 1?
MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:

No. 2?

MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:

No. 3?

MR. SCARINCI:

Yes, yes, yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:

No. 4?

MR. SCARINCI:

Oh, no, no, no.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Are you taking back your No.

MS. WASTWEET:

Taking back 3.

CHAIR LANNIN:

No.

I'm sorry.

3?

3 is out.

Checks are

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gone. No. 4?

No. 4 is gone.

MR. SCARINCI:

4-A?

Wait, wait, 4 is gone?

No,

let's keep 4.
MS. WASTWEET:

No. 4.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Have to be fast on the

uptake. No. 4-A?
MR. SCARINCI:

Keep it.

CHAIR LANNIN:

No. 5?

No. 6 is out.

No. 5 is out.

No. 6?

No. 7?

MR. HOGE:

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. MORAN:

No. 8?

Yes.

MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:

No. 9?

Nothing for 9.

No.

10? No.
PANEL:

Yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:

And 11?

Nothing for 11?

Okay.
Let's begin our consideration, please.

Due

to the somewhat late hour, if we could all keep our
discussions for the coins at about five minutes, I
would appreciate it.

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So Dennis, I'm going to start with you.
MR. TUCKER:

Starting with Pictured Rock?

CHAIR LANNIN:
Rocks.

We're starting with Pictured

We're going to do these, we'll do them group

by group.
MR. TUCKER:

Okay.

I think the most

engaging and successful designs are those that show
people engaging with the environment beyond the
recreational aspect.

So I like a lot of the loon

designs, all of the loon designs.
Some of them cast the viewer, the person
holding the coin, as an observer and some cast the
viewer as a participant.

I think the ones that cast

the viewer as a participant are the most successful.
And for that reason, No. 9 is my favorite choice.
I like the dramatic aspect of No. 3.

It

reminds me of Charles Vickers' design for the Hawaiian
Volcano National Park.

It was very popular in the

community.
No. 9 is my preferred design.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

Thank you, Dennis.

I think that we'll just do park by park.

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think that's easiest.
Robert?
MR. HOGE:

I think I agree with the, I would

like to agree with the recommendation.

They made very

good use of positive and negative space in No. 8, and
it shows phenomenal landscape in a relatively
straightforward way.

That's why I'm attracted to it.

CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. JANSEN:

Okay.

Erik?

As an overall comment, I think

we're getting back to more pictures on metal.

And I

think that's a direction I don't think any of us
really want to go.
I would again encourage the artists to think
in terms of key symbols.

I think the kayaker was

encouraged as a key symbol here, but instead of using
a symbol I think we ended up putting kayaks in
pictures so I'm a little unhappy about that.
Second comment would be, as we all know,
when we go to the proof versions of these, negative
space is our opportunity for mirrored surfaces.

A

number of these designs really lack negative space,
and that makes the proofs end up a frosted mess.

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A number of the candidates -- and I'm not
going to mention them on those two scores -- some of
the, in that light, whereas I don't really care for
the artistic strength of 5 or 6, they do have the best
negative space for the coin with the best proof
outcomes, I think.
My favorite design is a bit of a risky
design -- I echo comments that Dennis just made -- is
Design No. 3. Admittedly the waves are a little almost
Japanese style, and I'm concerned that the waves will
end up being sculpted almost identically with the
forest profile kind of in 2 to 3 o'clock position on
this design.
Fundamentally I think it's the most high
energy design here done well.

And I happen to be a

fan of that lava design in the Hawaii state quarter.
Done well, I think this is a high-energy design with
good balance, good negative space.
So subject to the confidence that Don would
have on the sculpture -- and I know you kind of gave
us a bit of a warranty on the Alaska or the Hawaiian
lava design. It really came out wonderfully on the

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five ounce silver. That's a spectacular design.
MR. EVERHART:
MR. JANSEN:

So you trust me then.
Will you sign up?

Can you do

this?
MR. EVERHART:

Yes.

I mean, the leaves on

the trees on the right would be more textured and the
water would be more of a flowing type of treatment to
it, so there will be a contrast.
MR. JANSEN:

So given that warranty, 3 is

going to go probably into my favorites list here.

And

I think that's probably the extent of my comments.
Thank you.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Erik.

Heidi?
MS. WASTWEET:

Per my usual reminder, I like

to say that we are voting on designs for coins, and
not drawings.

Many of these are nice drawings, but

that doesn't mean that they'll make nice coins.
Design No. 1 is such a design.
lot going on here.

There's a

And when I see it enlarged as you

see it on the screen it's very well drawn, very
thoughtfully laid out.

But this is a very shallow and

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very small quarter.
Just today I was holding some recent
quarters in my hand from the America the Beautiful
program.

And when I look at them with my bare eyes,

not looking at a page or drawing or screen, we have
got a lot going on on those coins.
And I want to urge everyone to try to pull
that to the more bold images if they're going to show
up on that small pallet.
On design No. 3, I really like the attempt
here with the splashing wave; I think that's creative.
I wish that the background trees on the far right-hand
side, I wish those were treated more like a silhouette
because that texture, the texture of the trees,
texture of the rock, the texture of the waves, they're
all competing against each other.
In the drawing here we see there's some
shadows drawn here.

You don't get that in the coin.

It's going to be texture next to texture next to
texture.

I don't have a whole lot of confidence in

this design.

I think it's a good attempt; it might

work, but I'm not 100 percent.

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I like Design 5 because it is a very clean
and bold design.
detail.

It has detail but not too much

It has scale.

I think it's clear what it is.

I think it would read well as a coin.
When I first saw my packet I thought Design
8 was very nice because of the negative space of the
proof piece.

But when I saw it reduced down to the

actual size I thought it looked a bit busy.

And that

drew me to Design 12, which is the same feature but
drawn in a more bold way, more clean way; has lots of
negative space.
a silhouette.

And the bird there is basically just
It becomes a symbol.

Instead of trying

to put too much there it becomes a symbolic shape.

I

like Design 12 as well.
That concludes my comments.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

Thank you very much,

Heidi.
Herman?
MR. VIOLA:

Thank you.

I agree with what my colleagues have to say.
My only feeling, when talking about these geographical
features, I like to see geography.

A couple of these

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look like the Audubon Society has gotten into this
somehow, even though I'm a birdwatcher.
I would have to say though that, while I'm
intrigued by No. 3, I do think it would be very hard
to, as Heidi says, figure it out once it's made into
coin.
So I really like the idea of No. 12, which
is kind of representative of what the stakeholders
want but is again much more dramatic and effective.
Thank you.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Herman.

Michael?
MR. MORAN:
here.

I ran a small poll before I got

And I asked Don Everhart on No. 3, could he do

it. I asked Heidi and got pretty much the comments you
just heard.

So I've got a yes and a no on No. 3.

I like No. 3.

I wish the artist would have

put a little more lean into the white pine because
there's a wind blowing there.
forest is unneeded.

The texture on the

I have some real concerns that we

could get that one to show.
It's a nice design.

It's one of the few

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opportunities I've seen where we can put some motion
into a quarter.

And I'll probably challenge them with

the vote on that one.
No. 5, nice quarter, nice negative space.
That's why I'm saying that today, there's a better one
here.

No. 8, I want to spend just a minute on No. 8

because CFA chose it.
I'm a photographer.

I'm looking at Castle

Rock, I'm going to frame it, and I'm going to put
things on either side.

I am a photographer, by the

way.
But I'm framing it for a three by five or
four by six or an eight by eleven or an eight by ten;
I'm not putting it on a quarter.

I don't know what

they were thinking about by adding the trees to this.
It's a mess.
Now we'll go to the one that I really like,
which is No. 12.

Yup, well done all the way around.

And you can't go wrong with the waves splashing.
is really a good one and deserves to be coined up.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Michael.

Steve Roach?

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MR. ROACH:

Thank you.

I grew up in Michigan.
years of my life in Michigan.

I spent the first 22

We spent summers up

north. Pictured Rocks is a place that is known for
being calm. It's a place of serenity.
For me, I love the design for 3 because like
Erik says, it reminds me of a Japanese woodblock
print; it has the innovation to it.

But it doesn't

capture the nature of the Pictured Rocks, which is a
place of calmness.

For that, I'd get rid of No. 3.

For No. 8, the first thing I thought about
was Bob Ross, Imagine a happy little tree in the
corner.

It just seems a little bit busy.

It seems a

little bit more like, while I think it looks nice when
it's large, I think when it's small it's going to be
really problematic especially in proof.
That leads me to 12.

No.

12 was my

favorite because you get the things that the site
wanted.

You get the rock, you get the tree, you have

a bird there for a sense of scale.

And as Heidi said,

I think that's going to look really nice in proof so
I'm for 12.

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But I'd really like everyone to consider if
they support 3 because Pictured Rocks is calm, and
this design is very agitated and I think it goes
against the nature of the park.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thanks.

Jeanne?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Thank you, Madam

Chair.
I'm going to agree with my colleagues, Heidi
and others, about No. 3.

I think it's a beautiful

design. And we have the waves and the forest.
But again, when we get down on it, that
small planchet, that little quarter size, that's all
going to be lost.

I think I'm going to skip past 5,

which for me in my opinion is not a very strong
design.

And it will make a nice quarter, but it's

rather boring.
No. 8, when I opened the packet I thought
that was just really spectacular.
a nice contrast there.

I thought there was

I like the fact there was some

reflection in the water.

I agree with Michael Moran

about the fact that we've got maybe too many trees

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around there.
So based on all that I'm going to have to go
with No. 12, which is strong and simple.

And this is

what we've been asking the Mint to do is give us
something more powerful.

I believe that they've done

it.
The only thing that I don't like about this
piece is the tiny little bird, which is going to be
even smaller on that quarter size.

So maybe we might

put a couple more spots in there, a few more birds, or
make it a little bigger if we choose this design.
Thank you.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Jeanne.

Donald?
MR. SCARINCI:

You know, I discarded No. 12

initially because of the bird.

And the bird's just

going to look like a contact mark or a bug or
something.

So I'm just really bothered by the bird.

You know, I guess you're going to make the
argument that the bird gives it perspective.

Yeah, if

you're looking at it with a loop, or maybe on the
three inch version of this thing.

But I think it

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really bugs me.
Is the person from, is the person from
Pictured Rocks on the phone?

No pictured Rocks

person?
MR. URAM:

Susan.

MR. SCARINCI:

Susan?

No?

I'm glad you mentioned, you know, that you
view, you view Pictured Rocks as a place of serenity
because I think that's an important comment.

You

know, I guess I like, I liked No. 3 as well.

You knew

I would, right?
bold.

I like No. 3 as well.

I think it's different.

volcano.

I think it's

I think it's like the

I think we're doing something interesting

and fun on one of these coins. I think this is
interesting and fun and I think it's a challenge.

We

may or may not carry it off.
But, you know, I think the problem, you
know, I've never been to Pictured Rocks, you know.

I

think we do have to, I do think we have to capture the
place.

I think we have to capture the mood of the

place.
If in fact you think it's a place of

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serenity and you think this is not fitting in with the
mood of the place, since I've never been there, I
really kind of have to go with what he says on this.
And the people from Pictured Rocks are not - clearly they didn't recommend it.
the CFA went with No. 8.
Pictured Rocks, right?
play.

I understand why

That's the recommendation of
No. 8?

It's the conservative

It's like, Okay, we're going to do that; it

looks like everything else; it's not going to stand
out; it's not going to be a coin you care about, you
know.

So why do it, you know?

Why should we do it?

I think we shouldn't do it.
And I do like, you know, if I could get
beyond the little thing, the little bird in No. 12, I
would go with that.
I do like No. 4.

I really like the way, you

know, in this case I like the perspective, I like the
canoe, you know.
I feel the same way Dennis did about No. 9.
I feel I like the canoe.
action.

I feel like I'm in the

I feel like I'm in the coin.

No. 9 are nice from that point of view.

So No. 4 and
No. 1

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overdoes it.

It's the second canoe in the background

that takes it over the top.
So I guess I could be persuaded to go with
No. 12; otherwise, No. 9 or No. 4.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Donald.

Tom?
MR. URAM:

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

As I look at the whole series, you know,
some of them will have to have picture looking things,
some will have the people and some will have the
formations or whatever.

It's just the nature of the

whole series of the parks that we've had to go
through.
I originally thought No. 3 was going to be
the pick that I would like simply because I thought
that the water and that the movement there would
really come off well.

But I too agree that we could

have some issues with the striking and the frosting
and so forth.
But after hearing Steve talk, I kind of
discount that based on his expertise of having lived
there and having been to the park because I, likewise,

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have not.

So I look at No. 9 as being, as Don had

mentioned, you're in the motion.

The coin is moving.

You can create the water in such a way on this coin
that it would give a lot of movement and statement to
the quarter.
And I'll also consider No. 12, although it
isn't as serene I don't think as to what you have in
No. 9.

I think that that might -- I certainly like it

better than No. 8 for all the reasons that were
stated.
I'll be giving some votes both to No. 9 and
No. 12, and maybe a little bit better to No. 9
actually because of some of the other designs that
we're going to be looking at that might not have
individuals in them.
Thank you, Madam Chairman.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Tom.

I'll make a couple of comments.

We voted to

save No. 2, which I believe is sort of the effect of
erosion water, and I just thought that the rippling
effect in that was fairly interesting.

It's not high

in my list, but I liked the way that it looked.

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I can see why the CFA voted for No. 8.
I do prefer as my choice No. 12.
like the negative space.

But

I think it's bold; I

Don and I disagree about the

bird.
Don Everhart, what can we do about the
little bird?
MR. EVERHART:

We can shoot it down.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Other than that.

PANEL:

Shoot it.

MR. EVERHART:
Zika mosquito on that.

Like Don said, it could be a
Who knows?

If we eliminate it

it's not going to hurt the composition, that's for
sure.
CHAIR LANNIN:

I don't mind it in there at

all. I think it adds perspective.
MR. EVERHART:

It does add perspective, yes.

CHAIR LANNIN:

And yes, Don, we're all

getting old and we all wear glasses.
No. 12 is a really nice design.

But I just think

It's simple, it's

clean.
Certainly if you go to the park -- Steve,
how many times have you seen it?

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MR. ROACH:

Probably five or six.

CHAIR LANNIN:

It's very recognizable from

the park.
So I think with my comments we can conclude
the comments for this particular national park.
won't vote until the end.

We

And we're going to start

next with Apostle Islands National Lakeshore in
Wisconsin.
Okay, who would like to start?

Dennis, want

to start again?
MR. TUCKER:

Sure.

Thank you.

I'm the person who spoke out for No. 2.

And

I think it captures the natural architecture of the
Apostle Islands with the rock formations.

It has the

lighthouse, which is an important part of this park,
and has some activity with a very bold figure in the
front kayaking and enjoying the natural environment.
So that's why my vote would go for No. 2.
Thank you.
CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. HOGE:

Robert?

In general, these look as though

they're perspectives of somebody with a distant

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telescope looking across the island.

And not that

there's anything wrong with that.
I think I would prefer again the site that's
the CFA preference No. 9.

It has a nice landscape.

It does include the lighthouse.

I think it's

important that we include the lighthouse.

This is the

great lighthouse site of the entire series.
The figure of the kayaker is a bit small,
but I think it probably would work.
the perspective.

It maybe adds to

The design is fairly well balanced

and pleasing, and it's focusing on the cave in the
center.

I kind of like that.

It gives a sense of

mystery.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Robert.

Erik?
MR. JANSEN:
this set.

I'm generally disappointed with

Again, I'm finding it difficult to support

pictures on metal that are so busy that certainly in a
proof version they're just going to turn into just
some massive frosting.

And even in the business

strike I think the busyness in I would say Design No.
2, when you reduce that to the pallet of a quarter

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you're going to get the guy's silhouette of his head
and you're going to get him looking at a tower and the
rest of it is going to disappear maybe.
I'm finding it difficult to really recommend
any of the designs personally.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Erik.

Heidi?
MS. WASTWEET:

I would like to see a way to

represent the recreation on this quarter for both
Apostle and Pictured Rocks, either/or, but I'm just
not seeing any designs here that do so in a way that's
appropriate for the size of the quarter.
If we had a canoe that was more in profile,
maybe silhouetted, very pared down and simple so it
would read well and doesn't interfere and compete with
the texture of the surrounding geography, then I would
support that.

I'm just not quite seeing that here.

Especially No. 2, which is beautifully
drawn, is a nice design, has all the elements and the
action, but for the scale of this, if this were on my
table and I were sculpting this I would be banging my
head against the wall because there's so many layers

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in such extremely shallow sculpture.
I think Design 4-A and even 4, much more
simplified, I could go with either of those.

Design

9, if the water texture is really muted, this might be
okay. But I just don't see the approach.

There's so

much texture everywhere there's no depth, there's no
fading the texture into the background to
differentiate the back from the front.
Yes, there's a lighthouse; there's a lot of
detail there for being so far in the distance.
There's challenges all around.
I'm not sure what I'm going to support.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Heidi.

Herman?
MR. VIOLA:

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

And I have been to the Apostle Islands, but
when I went there I went hunting.
CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. VIOLA:

Shoot that bird .

I wasn't in a canoe or kayak.

Actually I was rather disappointed in the
whole set.

But having said that, I know we have to

make a good decision here.

And I'd like to keep the

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kayakers off so I could go for 4-A, but I could also
support No. 9.
Thank you.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Herman.

Michael?
MR. MORAN:

All I'm going to do is voice

what everybody else has said.
I really liked the overall package of
quarters. But this was by far the weakest of the ones.
And 4-A is a bit boring; nothing fancy there.

But our

option is to throw this back at them and have them do
them again, and 4-A is better than that.
Beyond that, I don't really have any that
jump out and get me.

I could go with 4 with the canoe

if we feel like we got to have some people in these
things.

But 4-A is probably my preference, but a weak

one.
Thank you.
CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. JANSEN:

Erik?
One of the points raised

earlier on by Heidi was when very similar designs end
up competing with themselves.

And I'm sensing in this

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one we're not going to get a strong vote on any
number.

And 4 may be the strongest of the weak, and

4-A maybe closely the weak of the weaks.
I'm wondering if we should merge those in
our voting just to see if we can get a decision.
MS. WASTWEET:

I was wondering that myself.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Merging 4 and 4-A together?

MR. JANSEN:

On a vote, and then come back

to see what we can pull out of the votes.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Erik, you're making a motion?

MS. WASTWEET:

We don't need a motion, do

we?
MR. JANSEN:

If you want a motion I'll --

CHAIR LANNIN:

Is there any objection if we

do not make it as a motion and just a general
discussion? Discussion it is.
Okay, Jeanne?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Okay.

Thank you,

Madam Chair.
I have to agree with my colleagues about
this canoe business.

We have two small canoes in too

small space.

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It's a great drawing.
already discussed.

I think that was

We have No. 1 with the canoes, but

the background is going to be so lack of detail I
think when it finally is reduced to a quarter size.
No. 2, although this is a lovely drawing,
again I think we're just talking about the canoe;
we're not talking about the Apostle Islands.
I'm not happy with this group of drawings.
In fact, I'm a little disappointed.
I didn't jump up and talk about 5; 5 has
been rejected.

But it's probably, now that everybody

else has not talked about it, it might be something to
consider.
And when we get to No. 4 and No. 4-A, it
resembles so much No. 12, which we are really thinking
about.

I know it's sister islands, but I think it

gets to be kind of confusing.

The pine tree is almost

on its side.
Somehow we need to distinguish Apostle
Island from Pictured Rocks.

So by putting the canoe

in, much as I don't want to, that would make the
distinction.

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Thank you.
MR. JANSEN:

It has three birds in it.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Correct, there are

three birds in this one.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Steve Roach, have you ever

vacationed here?
MR. ROACH:

I have not been to the Apostle

Islands, unfortunately.
Given that there is going to be a lack of
human element in the Michigan quarter, I think it's
important that there is a human element in the
Wisconsin quarter.
That being said, between No. 4 and 4-A, of
course No. 4 has the human element.

No. 9 is

problematic to me because it just feels very
perfunctory:

Yup, there's a lighthouse, yup, there's

a rock, and yup, there's a canoer, but it doesn't
really read as an integrated whole.
And I don't see how this is going to look
really exceptional on either a three inch five ounce
coin or a quarter dollar.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Mr. Scarinci, I'm sure you

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have an opinion.
MR. SCARINCI:

So I think it comes down to

is the lighthouse important in this park or not,
right?

I mean, we don't have the Apostle Island

people, right?

Oh, beautiful.

Thank you.

I would

love to hear from the Apostle Island person.

That

would be wonderful.
I think what I'd like to know about is two
questions specifically.

One, is the lighthouse

important to this park or is it not important to this
park and 2, is this an active park?

So these

depictions, particularly in No. 2 of, you know, the
kayak, is that something that happens at this park?
Or is this a sitting kind of a passive park?
MR. KRUMENAKER:
Pictured Rocks.

This is Bob Krumenaker from

I can answer this for you.

There are six light stations, nine standing
light towers in the park.

The lighthouses are

extremely important to the park.
No. 9, which I heard many people say is
perhaps perfunctory, it's a very realistic scene.

I'm

not a coin judge so I can't tell whether it's a good

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coin, but it's a very realistic scene.
No. 2, we like the fact the lighthouse is
bigger, but I think it's too much about a kayaker
personally.

I mean, that is a scene that happens but

the kayak becomes more important than the lighthouse.
My personal opinion would be No. 2 without
the kayaker, but kayaking is the most common way to
visit this park.

And in contrast to Pictured Rocks,

kayaking happens there but it's not nearly as common
there as it is here.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you for helping us with

MR. SCARINCI:

That's very helpful.

that.

I think, I mean, CFA is always going to pick
the most conservative thing, right?

So No. 9 is

conservative. It's another coin you're going to look
at, look at, and put down.
It's got all the elements, you know, so
yeah, it probably does look most like the park and
it's got everything in it.

But if the lighthouse is

important, then the lighthouse, you're just never
going to see the tiny lighthouse on the upper right.

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CHAIR LANNIN:

Kind of like the bird?

MR. SCARINCI:

It's kind of like the bird in

the last one:

It's there, but is it a tree or is it a

lighthouse or what really is it from the point of view
of it being on a quarter size planchet don't forget.
It's a quarter size planchet.

That lighthouse, you're

barely going to notice it.
It's more noticeable in No. 2.

You know, if

in fact people kayak in this park and that's what they
do, we've asked the artist to give us perspective;
we've asked the artist to put the viewer in the coin;
we've asked the artist, you know, to do things exactly
like this artist did in No. 2.

So, you know, and the

lighthouse is bigger. It's more prominently featured,
you know.
So it's clearly on a quarter size pallet.
That's how you really have to look at it, you know.
On a quarter size pallet you really get the kayak and
you really get the lighthouse in No. 2.

So, you know,

the other ones without the lighthouse, I think we're
losing it.
MS. STAFFORD:

Mr. Scarinci, I just want to

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make sure.

I don't know if I read it out, talking

about the lighthouse with the kayak.
Design 1 was the second choice.

Did I

indicate that?
MR. SCARINCI:

Yes.

No. 1's okay; it's just

not as, you're not as in the scene as you are -artistically I think Dennis is right.

I think

artistically you're in the scene, you're in this coin,
you know.

You're going to look at it and you're going

to kind of be in the coin.
I think I like this one in the perspective
of this is the conservative play is No. 9, boring.
CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. URAM:

Tom?

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

I, in reflecting back on the Pictured Rock,
it looks like No. 12 is going to be, based on my
colleagues' comments, is going to be the one with the
rock and so forth.

I'd like to see the canoe then in

this one, particularly if they are sister parks.
And with No. 1 being the second choice, and
you do not have the prevalence of the person in No. 2
where it's overtaking, plus I think in frost, boy,

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we're going to lose a lot of that in No. 2.
talking about a blob all through here.

You're

I think we'll

lose a lot of it.
I do like No. 9 for the same reasons that
were discussed.

When April read the description,

April said it reflects the three aspects of the park
just as Bob said in his comments a second ago from
Apostle Island.
So in fact, if we want to reflect the three
aspects of the park, I think my choice would now go to
No. 1, which would then complement No. 12 in Pictured
Rock, and still provides the three aspects, and
doesn't have as much negative space as probably would
be desired.
But on the same token, I just think No. 2 is
going to be too much, and No. 1 can achieve the goal.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Tom.

My only comments would be that I actually
agree with Tom.

I'm in a coin club in the Bay area.

And there are a remarkable number of people who
collect lighthouse and lighthouse-related things.

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I think we're doing an incredible disservice
to this park by not having a lighthouse on it.

And it

should be in as prominent a position as possible and
not in a really small sort of space at 2 o'clock on
No. 9.
I think No. 2 is going to be far too busy on
a quarter.

And I think with some negative space in

No. 1, I would have to go with No. 1 because it's got
a prominent enough lighthouse, and seems to me it
would represent the park.
Any further points?
MS. WASTWEET:

Heidi?

I just wanted to add, as I'm

listening to everyone I'm looking at these again and
again.

I've gone back to design No. 1 because the

lighthouse is more prevalent, and that's an important
aspect of the park.
I noticed here that the water is represented
as a negative space.

Would that be polished, Don?

MR. EVERHART:

That would be polished, yes.

MS. WASTWEET:

That would add the needed

contrast that would be lost in some of the others,
where I've mentioned it get busy with the textures.

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The fact that the water is polished adds interest in
No. 1, and it's piquing my interest now.
CHAIR LANNIN:

All right.

Now we're going

to go on very carefully -MR. MORAN:

I have one question on that.

CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. MORAN:

Sure.

Going back to No. 1, I'm

concerned. We did a quarter on the BlueRidge Parkway
in which we had the flowers and tunnels and then this
highway going off with no texture in it at all.

It

was a complete failure.
If we do that here -CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. MORAN:

I like it.

-- the boat down there like

that, there's no tie into the shoreline.

If you do

too much wave action you clutter it up.
Can you keep -CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. MORAN:

Michael --

-- like they're floating?

I

know they're supposed to float.
MR. EVERHART:

I don't quite understand your

question, Michael.

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MR. MORAN:

Well, I'm afraid when you see a

quarter -- and I'm not talking about a proof.

When

you get into change, the canoes are just going to be
sitting out there in the foreground of the quarter,
and they're not going to be connected to the rest of
the composition.
MR. JANSEN:

Can I making a suggestion?

Those canoes sitting in the water should have almost a
linear profile, as opposed to a curvacious hull.

And

I think it's that cue that's lacking that's making you
think they're flying, whereas if it's in the water
you'll have more -MR. EVERHART:

Well, it depends on the

perspective that you're looking at them from.
MR. MORAN:

-- the kayak in the water, the

water ripples rather than the mirror surface.

I don't

think they'll show in a circulation quarter.
MS. WASTWEET:

I think there's enough clues

around it that people aren't going to mistake that for
sky.

It's clearly saying there's boats, there's a

rock above it.

It's going to read as water.

MR. EVERHART:

There are two options here.

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I mean, you can show the water as a polished negative
space, or you can sculpt it, and that leaves you with
just a little bit of polish at the top.
There's actually a third option, which I
don't think would work, is you would just show where
the bow is breaking some waves there but I think it
would draw too much attention to itself, and it would
detract from the overall composition.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Don.

It's okay,

Michael.
Okay, Minnesota, Voyagers National Park, my
home state.

All right.

Why don't we begin with

Dennis again. Say nice things about Minnesota.
MR. TUCKER:
CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. TUCKER:

A wonderful state.
Thank you.
You're welcome.

I have a first choice and a second choice
with this set.

Minnesota is very close to Canada, of

course. I'm from upstate New York so I'm used to that
connection.
And my second choice is the common loon, No.
6. When I first saw that, I saw the connection to

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Canada's old dollar.

Of course Canada's silver dollar

and its last copper dollar feature the Voyagers
themselves, the French trappers who worked in this
region.
But then more recently, the Canadian dollar
coin has featured a loon in a very similar depiction,
so I like that connection to our neighbor to the
north; that's something that stood out to me.
But really my first choice from this set, I
think No. 3 is just spectacular.
design.

It's an outstanding

It's remarkable within this series.

It's a

different perspective than what we're used to seeing.
It's a bird's eye perspective literally.
And I like the way the eagle's wing breaks
through the central tonneau, that ring that we're used
to seeing enclose these designs.

So that to me is a

very dramatic design and it has my first vote.
Thank you.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Dennis.

Robert?
MR. HOGE:

First of all, I'd like to say I

think No. 1 isn't something that would work.

To show

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the flames in the fire static with no color, I think
that's not a good idea.

No. 1 also combines the

Aurora Borealis, which is spectacular because it's not
something that you can sculpt; you can barely draw it.
It's just a very poor choice of design.
No. 3 I think has an eagle, which is
outstanding and beautiful.
eagles quite like that.

I don't think we've seen

But on the other hand, having

bird's eye perspective in aerial views like No. 3 and
No. 4 I think presents some difficulty because of the
probable scale and distance.
No. 5 is a well balanced design.

It might

not be terribly interesting, but it's attractive and I
can see why they selected that as the preference.
I like the loon even though his head is
partly obscured perhaps by the tree in the background.
I like the idea of stealing from our neighbors to the
north.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you.

All right, Erik?
MR. JANSEN:
in Design No. 1.

I don't really like the drawing

I'm aware of the challenge of the

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dynamic nature of the flame and the static sculpt.
And I think the sculptor had a chance to put the
northern lights up in a higher relief than certainly
the backdrop.
It's a challenging sculpt.
MR. EVERHART:
MR. JANSEN:

Yeah, it is.

I agree.

I don't get a warranty on this

one?
MR. EVERHART:

No.

What I would like to

suggest on this one is to sculpt the water and polish
the flames.
MR. JANSEN:

Incuse the flames in polish?

MR. EVERHART:

I don't know if you could

incuse the flames, but you could polish them, you
know.

And that would -MR. JANSEN:

Reverse.

MR. EVERHART:
MR. JANSEN:

Yes, right.
I think we've got -- I've

canoed in Minnesota multiple times.

And the memories

I have are of a fire on the rocks over the water, and
the northern lights.

We can't make the coin do the

wolf howl, but those are my memories every time I've

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been there.
There's a line on this Design No. 1.
curious.

What is it?

I'm

There's a bit of a swooping

horizontal dark line that connects from the rock at
about 4 o'clock over to the flames, and then the
flames out at about 7 or 8 o'clock.
line?

What is that

Anybody know? It's awful strong in his

drawings.
MR. EVERHART:

I don't know what it is

either. I would eliminate it.
MR. JANSEN:

Okay.

Design No. 3, how do you

sculpt that tow boat, that distance tow boat and get
any visual cue what it is?
MR. EVERHART:

We'll, you'd use perspective

in your texturing, texture the foreground not so much
that you would compete with the eagle, but you would
have a definite feeling of undulation and you would
fade that out as you go back.
MR. JANSEN:
MR. EVERHART:

Like a gray scale.
Yes.

So when you get up to

where "Voyagers" the word is, it would almost be
smooth.

It would give you a feeling of sfumato.

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that?
MR. JANSEN:

Yes.

Design No. 5 is a fine design.

Again, it's

the memory I have of camping on the rocks and seeing
more rocks and the trees.

Design No. 5 is the

conservative go- to coin there; it's going to be a
great proof.

It's just got, it's a very pleasant

design.
Design 6 is a fake-out here, guys; either
that or we're looking forward to a four to one dollar
with the Canadian dollar and this is our loon.
That's a math joke.

I apologize.

I think we get faked out by the contrast
here. The loon really pops to our eye in this.

But

that contrast is really hard to translate into metal.
So I think it's a fake-out, guys.
I'm going to vote, probably my strong vote
goes to No. 3, and put it on Don to deliver it, which
is a good bet.
MR. EVERHART:
MR. JANSEN:
CHAIR LANNIN:

Do my best.
I know you will.

Thank you.

Heidi?

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MS. WASTWEET:

I want to give credit to the

Design No. 3 and the attempt to see this unique
perspective.
I have a few problems with it.

I can't

imagine how this is going to read on the coin as far
as the geography.

I'm just not sure.

It might and

might not.
The other issue I have is the fish.

Because

it's going to be so -- I understand why the fish is
there. But because it's going to be so small it may
just diffuse what is bird and what is feet.
And also a bird flying, an eagle flying at
that height I don't think would be carrying a fish.
It would be fishing and he'd grab the fish out of the
water and he's going to take it up to the nearest
perch.

He's not going to travel long distance with it

like that.
If we go with this, I'm going to suggest
taking out the fish.
Design No. 5, I'm just going to come out and
say it.

This is boring.
Design No. 6.

It's really boring.
Like Erik says, this is

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really deceiving in the extreme shading; nonetheless,
I like it. I think it can be done if it's sculptured
well and that's on the art department.

If they put

too much emphasis on the texture behind the bird it's
going to get lost.
If Don drives this and makes sure that that
texture doesn't interfere, I think it would be very
successful.
MR. EVERHART:

I think if you do a very fine

texture on the dark areas of the loon, it'll kind of
catch some darkness and you can contrast that against
the water and then play the background back, you know.
Play it soft.
MS. WASTWEET:

And you can really have fun

with the reflection in the wave.

It's a beautiful

design down there at the bottom.

Especially when we

see this on the larger piece that we affectionately
call the hockey puck it can be very beautiful.
Canada does not have a monopoly on loons.

And

We can have

loons.
CHAIR LANNIN:
PANEL:

It's not their national bird.

We have many loons in this country.

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MR. JANSEN:

Birds of a feather.

CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. VIOLA:

Herman, save me from this.

I'll try to rescue you.

I have to say that the eagle flying high
like that would need an oxygen mask.

It seems that,

you know, he's as high as an airplane.
landscape on the bottom.

You see the

And certainly at that height

he wouldn't be holding that large fish; there's no
way.

But it's a nice concept, a nice drawing.
And I agree with my colleagues.

I think

overall all the drawings in this group are very nice.
But I have to say the loon does pop out at you and we
can make it work.

And Canadians may feel we've just

stolen their idea, but that's fine.
CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. MORAN:

Okay.

Michael?

I have to put my glasses on for

this one.
I'm going to agree with everybody.

I think

No. 5 has plenty of negative space, but I think it's
boring.
I agree with Herman on No. 3.
going to see an eagle like that.

You're not

And you won't have

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to worry about whether it has a fish on the quarter.
It would just look like a lump of something or
another.

We don't want to do that.
To me, it comes down to No. 1 and No. 6.

And both of them are difficult sculpts.
No. 1 first.

It's a unique composition.

the designer that did it.

Let's go to
I compliment

He certainly broke out of

the box and tried to portray -CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. MORAN:

Or she.

He or she.

Sorry.

I would question maybe the pine trees on the
right get in the way of the northern lights.
think they're particularly needed.

I don't

If they do, you

could make them even smaller.
I would also say the Canadians on their
silver dollar portray the northern lights a little bit
differently from this.

And maybe some more raise in

there it would look better.

It's a consideration for

me.
Let's go to No. 6.

We've seen this before.

Whoever he or she is that did this has a very good
pencil. I mean, it's great as a drawing.

I love the

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wavy water. I think that's done well.
The problem is the background.

The sheer

rock cliff there against the head of the bird is a
real problem.

If you play with the rock pile by the

cliff and get rid of -- and the trees are all okay.

I

think it's that sheer rock cliff that really causes me
real hesitation to vote for this design.
If it weren't there and it had a clean head
I wouldn't worry about the sculpt.

I know it would

happen and it would be good.
I don't know what I'm going to do with this.
CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. ROACH:

Michael?

Thank you.

I'm sorry, Steve?
I feel pretty

confident about which one I'd pick.
6. Collectors love animals on coins.
a specific animal on a coin.
cool.

I love Design No.
Collectors love

The loon looks really

I think of a loon and I think of Minnesota.
I love the eagle in No. 3.

that on other coins going forward.

I'd love to see
I mean, it's an

interesting perspective that isn't unique to
Minnesota.

Again, I still have issues with the

concept of the fish, like everyone else.

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For No. 5, I hope that's not in
consideration as it was before because I think those
trees are just going to look sad and lumpy on a
quarter dollar.
I love No. 6.
really cool.

I just think the loon is

Thanks.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you.

Jeanne?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Thank you, Madam

Chair.
I'm going to address the flying eagle.

I

just simply have to say something about this eagle.
It's beautiful.

I love the fact that we're looking at

the islands from above.
But please, when an eagle is flying with a
fish, the fish has to be aerodynamic and can't slow
that eagle down.

So with everybody saying the eagle

can't carry a fish that high, I believe that's so.
And it also can't carry it with the fish bent in that
direction.
CHAIR LANNIN:

The world's most startled

walleye.

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MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

The other thing, it's

not going to be noticed when it's struck in coin size.
So the fish really has to go.
to go.

The face has

The fish has to go in the same direction as

the eagle.

If anybody has ever seen an eagle lift off

from a creek or a pond, that's not the way they take
it.

So turn it around.

Thank you.

That's that

piece.
I like, I like Don's concept about polishing
the flames on No. 1.

I think we're stepping out of

the box a whole lot by doing the Aurora Borealis and
the flames. I didn't like this one at first.

But my

colleagues have spiked my interest in it very much.
And I do like the site preferences on No. 5.
It is boring, but it is what being in Minnesota and
canoeing on the lakes and also in Canada is.
what we see when we're up there:

This is

these little

islands, the wonderful rocks, so I like this concept
very much and I think it would strike up quite nicely.
No. 6, we're talking about the loon.

I have

to agree with everyone about the cliff behind it.

The

loon, is this about Voyagers Island, or is this about

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the loon? I like the loon on a coin, but I'm not sure
we're talking about Voyagers or if we're talking about
loons.
So my vote is going to be probably for No. 5
or No. 1.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thanks, Jeanne.

Donald?
MR. SCARINCI:
No. 5.

I hope we don't risk getting

So I'm going to support No. 6 because I think,

I think not only is Canada having a bad year in 2016 MR. EVERHART:

Everyone's having a bad year.

MR. SCARINCI:

-- you know, and the designs

haven't been the greatest this year.

But by 2018

we'll get it back together I'm sure.
In any event, I think collectors like this.
This is a good collector coin, a pretty coin.

I think

we haven't really done that before like that.

So I'm

inclined, I'm going to go with No. 6.
That being said, I'm a sucker for No. 1.
would normally be the big proponent for No. 1.

I

Thank

you for letting me give the artist a like for No. 1,

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right, because I'd like to see that artist come back.
This is the kind of bold, this is the kind
of bold design that I think we're looking for;
something that's, you know, a depiction of something
but, you know, a mood, a feeling expressed on a coin.
I think it's great.

I think we should definitely see

this again.
As far as No. 3 goes, I'm not going to talk
about the fish.

But I'll say what I like, you know.

I mean, what's really cool about this is the way the
feathers, you know, really go to the rim.

I like, you

know, I like, this artist is also going to get a like
because we can now do that, but not a vote.
And it's a pretty coin.
little too high.

I think we're up a

The fish takes it off the table for

me, and we'd be redesigning this coin to get it right.
Plus I don't think the land mass is a really obvious
to anyone unless you're one of the people from the
park.
So I'm going to go with No. 6 just to
prevent No. 5.
MR. EVERHART:

Could I make a comment?

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CHAIR LANNIN:

Sure, Don.

MR. EVERHART:

On No. 6, if the Committee

does decide to go with that, my suggestion would be to
play down the detail in the cliff behind the bird's
head a lot and make that head stand out.
That's all.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Don.

Tom?
MR. URAM:

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

As a collector of Canadian coins
extensively, I gravitated to No. 6 because I thought,
That's great.

It's going to be a good representation

for us.
However, when we looked at the other two
designs that we just picked, in the two coming forward
we have a lot of birds and animals on the next two
designs.

And I think we'll achieve the goal with the

collectors as it relates to animals.

I agree this is

a great design maybe not for this one, but just
because it's certainly going to get part of my vote.
No. 3, maybe we can change it to the bird
and get that bird out of No. 1, and we'd have it all

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covered. But I'm going away from No. 3.
going to pass.

I'm just

I think it's a great concept there but

it's just out of it.
I'll tell you what.

No. 1 is intriguing

because when you put it together with the entire set,
it would really pop in relation to all the other four
quarters in the parks.

It is totally different.

Like

I said, looking forward we have plenty of birds and
animals that will be part of this set in this series.
So therefore, even though it goes against
totally what my first impression was in really liking
No. 6, I just think when it relates to the whole set - and the only thing with No. 1 I would have liked to
see would've been more northern skylights than that.
Polished reverse looking No. 1 I think would
really really make you look at this entire series in a
little bit different way.
So I'm going to change my mind and go with
No. 1 with the concept of the reverse proof, and still
give some to No. 6.

But I'm going to switch gears on

that and go from that point of view.
Thank you, Madam Chair.

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CHAIR LANNIN:

Thanks, Tom.

I too find No. 1 intriguing, but I wonder if
it's a little incongruous.

If you're sitting in a

campfire and the northern lights are in the distance
beyond, aren't you going to be missing the whole
middle part in the northern lights because of a
lighted campfire?
To me it looks like it was pasted together,
two separate scenes pasted together that wouldn't
logically be something that you would look at.
I have to confess that I do love the loon,
especially after Don said that he could tone the
cliffs down.

The eagle in No. 3 is beautiful.

The

walleye is -- I don't know where the eagle's flying.
That could be Quebec, could be Alberta, could be
anywhere.

I like the perspective but doesn't say the

park to me.
I wouldn't be interested in seeing No. 5 on
there because, again, the land of 10,000 lakes is
actually the land of 20,000 plus lakes, and they all
look like that.

And No. 4 is from an eagle's eye view

but it just doesn't say much to me.

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I think that I will tend heavily toward No.
6 because I just, it looks like a combination of two
designs for me in No. 1.
MR. HOGE:

Where is the smoke?

CHAIR LANNIN:

And where's the smoke,

exactly. Up in the northern light.
That does it for my native state.

Thank

you.
MR. SCARINCI:
going to wimp out.

After hearing Tom, I'm not

And if Tom can go with No. 1, I'm

going to go with No. 1.
MR. JANSEN:
MR. SCARINCI:
the other two.

There's no bird in it.
We're going to do birds in

We are going to do birds in the other

two.
So when you look at the set as a set of
five, I mean, listen.
this.

Jeanne likes No. 1.

I mean, look at us.

Listen to

We're being bold.

I think it's going to be a real challenge
because I think it has the real potential to be
another volcano.

I think you can do it.

I think you

can do it.

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CHAIR LANNIN:

Talk to us about the northern

lights.
PANEL:

Don, what if we colorize the

northern lights?
MR. URAM:

But maybe on the northern lights

you can have more raise or distinguish them a little.
Can that be done?
MR. EVERHART:
MR. URAM:

Sure.

I think that's the way --

CHAIR LANNIN:

Can the top part of the

flames be eliminated or lowered or something so
there's not -- or do you think that's integral?
MR. URAM:

I think it would be great if they

were larger.
MR. SCARINCI:

I think we can --

MS. WASTWEET:

I'd like to remind everyone

that the reverse polish will only work on the proof
and on the circulating it won't show.
And also the northern lights, to me it looks
like a curtain.

And I can't tell which one is -- and

the gradation, I don't know how I would handle it as a
sculptor.

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CHAIR LANNIN:

This should be a colorized

MS. WASTWEET:

I like the subject matter.

coin.
I

can't get past the curtain look.
What you said about the eagle changed my
mind about that, because land is not as specific as it
needs to be, and eagles are all over the entire
country, not just Minnesota, where loon says
Minnesota.
I think even though the cliff is a
challenge, if the cliff wasn't there then it would
just be about the loon.

So the cliff is necessary.

I'm going with the loon.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Cumberland Island, Georgia.

Okay, Dennis, you're up.
MR. TUCKER:

For me, No. 1 really captures

the essence of the Georgia shore and the beach, and
really immerses you into that scenario.
If you've ever visited this area, you'll
immediately recognize this.

I love the family scene

of a mother and child as a human element, and it's
very distinctive flora.

That is a very strong design

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in my opinion.
No. 3, who doesn't love tortoises and
turtles? It's an interesting design.
CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. TUCKER:

Treasury department.
It's not, it's not busy as many

of the designs we've seen are.

It has an element it's

cute. I think it would be very popular outside of the
hobby community, and would have some fans in the
mainstream audience.
I voted, I feel very strong.

I want to

mention that I was the person who said yes to consider
No. 10 and I think that I have some disagreements with
certain parts of the design.

I'm not a big fan of the

way the sun has been depicted.

It's symbolic.

But I love the way the pallet has been used
here.

It's something that we haven't seen in a lot of

these designs.

You've got the shapes, you've got

elements that are again breaking out of that central
tonneau and it's different, and for that reason I
think it deserves some consideration.
Those are my comments.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Robert?

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MR. HOGE:

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

No. 1 I think is so busy that on the small
size of a quarter, many of the details would just be
completely absent.

Look at the details in the back

feet of the people, the heel.

These are not going to

be there, or if they are on the coin they'll be so
microscopic a detail it would be ridiculous.
This is so busy.

It's a nice representation

even in the drawing of this size.

But on the size of

a quarter I think it's almost preposterous.
We've seen so many birds similar to these,
pelicans, egrets, they look a lot like the other
quarters. I can't go for them.
I have to say I think the turtle is one of
the best designs I've seen on No. 3.

I think this

would be a real winner.
I have to disagree with Dennis with No. 10.
Yes, it's different, but what is the water area?
Looks like a strange band, like a sort of optical
illusion between the two people and the mythological
sun.
Thank you.

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CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Robert.

Erik, what do you think?
MR. JANSEN:

I agree with Robert.

just too much detail, just overwhelming.

No. 1 is

So I let it

go.
No. 2 is the safe choice.

I was talking

with some folks over dinner and so forth, and this was
one of their favorites.

What was highlighted was how

you can literally look at this and feel the wind.
birds are frolicking in the wind.
same wind gust.

The

They're not on the

The grass is all showing us the wind.

Having said that, it's kind of boring.

So

I'll pick up on Heidi's boring there.
The turtle is really fun.

I love the

layout, I love the bubbles, I love the frolicking kind
of surf of a thing.

The turtle is really fun.

I'll

probably throw some support there.
Actually, the design that I liked best is
No. 5 especially if the sculptor lightens that grass
up and really puts a strong proof technique in those
ripples.
I think that the fish is in the right

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profile against the beak.

And if the attention and

the energy here, the top of the sculpt was on that
egret and the grass kind of faded away, and those
ripples became a top sculpt too you could almost feel
that fish getting caught.
No. 5 gets some support from me.

No. 6,

this bird looks like a dinosaur to me.
CHAIR LANNIN:

They are dinosaurs.

MR. EVERHART:

They are.

MR. JANSEN:

It's a loony dinosaur because

the head makes no sense to me.
right. It feels very stiff.

That bird just isn't

And if that's supposed to

be a heron -CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. JANSEN:

It's not.
What's it supposed to be?

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. JANSEN:

Snowy egret.

I can't go for the head.

I've

spent summers on the Florida coast, and I've never
seen a bird that looks like that.
I like the symbols in No. 10.
they work harmoniously.

I'm not sure

I'm definitely going to give

the artist a thumbs up for trying, working.

I'm not

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sure I like the way the water kind of leaves and the
shell kind of leaves me confused just sorting it out.
When you go into the quarter pallet, I think
you're asking too much unfortunately of the observer.
And so whereas I really would like to support No. 10
with the selection vote, I don't think I can.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Erik.

Heidi?
MS. WASTWEET:
love/hate relationship.

This packet for me was a real
There's some really great

designs here and there's some designs I really don't
like.
No. 1 I think is a hot mess.
It's going to look worse on the coin.
are very small.

It's busy.
The characters

I don't like it at all.

Design 10, I don't think I've ever said this
about a design in my six years, I hate this design.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you.

MS. WASTWEET:

I think it's saccharine, I

think it's confusing, I think it's busy, and I don't
think it says anything about Cumberland Island that
can't be said about any beach anywhere.

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To go back to No. 2, I like design No. 2.

I

don't think it's the best design, but I think it's
very nice.
Design No. 3 I love.

This is fantastic.

It's the right amount of bold, the right amount of
detail, the right amount of contrast.
I'd like to see the bubbles polished.
going to be really fun.
it.

It's

The kids are going to love

I love Design No. 3.
And if we can go to Design 5, this deserves

a closer look.

So Erik, what you said about Design

No. 5 I'm actually going to flip that around.
So instead of softening the brass behind the
bird, I would suggest we use the texture of the grass
as the contrast so that becomes a pattern, and then
sculpt the bird feathers soft, a soft bird, and that
gives you the contrast.
Then the ripples, instead of drawing the
ripples literally, this artist has taken our advice
and has made it a bold, graphic design that's really
beautiful.

I like Design No. 5 a lot.

MR. JANSEN:

Would you go incuse with those

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ripples?
MS. WASTWEET:

No.

Because if you raise

them, it's going to be the frost, and then have lots
of nice shiny polish behind it on the proof version.
MR. EVERHART:
on that.

I concur with what Heidi said

I would raise the ripples, frost them, and

then have them set against the polished background and
really set them off.
MS. WASTWEET:

That's it.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you.

Herman?
MR. VIOLA:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Again, these are some very interesting
designs. I would also agree there are some that I
can't believe they suggested.
No. 1 I agree would look like a mess on a
coin. I don't know how you'd do it.
I do love the turtle.
anything like that before.

I haven't seen

Collectors, kids, they'd

buy it for their kids or grandkids.

It's a neat coin.

So I would say my primary vote will be for
No. 3.

But I also would support No. 5.

But I

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certainly don't have much to say for 10 or the other
ones.
Thank you.
CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. MORAN:

Michael?

Let's look at No. 2.

ago, we'd have been happy with it.
it.

Two years

We'd have praised

We'd see the wind was blowing and the birds show

action and there's plenty of negative space, and it's
a good quarter design.
We've come a long way in the last two years.
This is a good design, but there are far better ones.
The turtle got my vote.
But I do agree with Erik on No. 5.
nice design, and I'll give it a 2.

It's a

But that turtle is

one of the better ones I've seen.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you.

Steve, have you vacationed here?
MR. ROACH:

So I'll start off by admitting I

have a strong bias because I love turtles.
ton of collectors also really love turtles.

I think a
I think

young people, who will potentially be getting these
coins as gifts, also love turtles.

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I love Design No. 3.
to look great as a proof.

It's fun.

It's going

It's going to look good

large, it's going to look great small.

It's going to

be the kind of coin that, when someone looks at it in
pocket change, they're going to stop and look at it.
I won't say much on 1 and 2 that hasn't
already been said.

But No. 3, one of my other fields

is European and American paintings.

And there's

nothing that kills the value of a still life more than
a dead fish.
I will leave that at that.
(Applause.)
MR. ROACH:

I want to give some kudos to

whoever designed No. 8.

It's not right, but I love

the fact that someone was able to put personality in
an animal.

That turtle looks like a Disney villain

that has a heart of gold.

It's fantastic.

I don't think it's right.
definitely the right choice.

I think 3 is

But I applaud whoever

designed No. 8 for putting some character into the
turtle.
No. 10 I like that it's in a shell, but it

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feels like an ad for an online dating company.

I hope

we don't go that way.
Thank you.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Interesting, Steve.

Jeanne?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Thank you, Madam

Chair.
Steve, you're a hard act to follow.

You

need your own show.
Preferred design, which is the preferred
stakeholder Design No. 1 is truly too much information
on a small planchet.

I'm not going to even discuss

that any more.
No. 2 gave me a sense of the wind, as
everyone spoke about, and I agree with Michael Moran
about the fact that two years ago this would have been
a great design.
But we've moved so far from that.
like Erik's interpretation of No. 5.

And I

To make the

texture behind that heron would be interesting, and
also it would, you know, the ripples become extremely
contemporary. That's great.

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However, I'm going to go with everyone
else's choice about the turtle, which is so amazing.
It fills the coin.

And No. 3 wasn't my choice in the

beginning, but the more I look at it, the more I see
that it's going to really pop out like the loon in the
past packet pops out.
I think we have something pretty spectacular
for young collectors to maybe follow the field a
little closer.

It gives them something exciting to

have as a foundation.

I'm going to go strongly with

that.
I know the CFA likes these very conservative
pieces and No. 6, where we have the egret, which to me
gives an amazing sense of space.

The bird is sitting

on that branch and flapping its wings kind of airing
them out, I really like this one a whole lot.
I think the turtle is going to overcome my
votes.

I just wanted to speak about that a little

bit.
Thank you.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Jeanne.

Donald?

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MR. SCARINCI:

We've definitely come a long

way. This is a very -- in two ways.

I mean, No. 1,

this is a very strong group of designs.

And, you

know, it's really, in any other, two years ago, you
know there's a couple of these designs we would just
have been going crazy about.
The second thing we've come a long way about
is the way we all seem to reach consensus with each
other. You know, yeah, No. 3, the turtle, is a nobrainer.

I think we all know exactly the way Steve

feels and expressed.

It's a great design.

I mean, it's not really something, I mean,
we should probably, I think we're all just marveling
at the fact that this is a great group of designs, No.
1.

And No. 2, we all seem to be on the same page, not

only with this design but some of the others we've
talked about.

So it's great.

It should have taken us five minutes to come
up and basically say, Yes, No. 3.

And we'll get

there; it's not quite what the CFA does, but we'll get
there.
No. 3 is a no-brainer.

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CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. URAM:

Thomas?

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

Now you see why I decided to go against the
loon because the turtle was the outstanding design.
When you have them both in the case I think you're
competing against each other, so I'm all in on No. 3.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
CHAIR LANNIN:

I'd like to give a thumbs up

to No. 2 because I think the Cumberland Islands are
actually barrier islands and the sea oats or the wild
oats that are there actually hold the islands in
place.

I like the sense of movement.
I don't think I've ever seen sea oats

actually be still.
waving a little bit.

I think they're always kind of
It is, however, a very safe

choice.
I'm in Steve's camp.
turtle person.

I'm going to be a

I think it's great.

made me look at the ripples in No. 5.

But I also, Erik
And I do think

that that is a wonderful design, especially with what
Don said he could do with this.
Those are my thoughts.

We are now going to

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go to our last park, and then we'll have a break.
Okay, so we are now at Block Island National
Wildlife Refuge in Rhode Island.
Dennis?
MR. TUCKER:

This was an interesting set in

that so many of the designs are very similar.

And I

think we've eliminated quite a few of them to get
around that.
For me, No. 8 was the strongest.

And it

really expresses a sense of joyful movement and
exuberance that is really lacking in a lot of the
other ones.

So that has my strong support.

It also has you get a view of the natural
surroundings and you get the lighthouse, so you've got
the man-made architecture and the natural park
environment.
And No. 2 I think, which I think was
preferred by the CFA was it, we have a sense of
movement, there's good negative space, we've got the
water, the seashore, we have the lighthouse.
I think all are very important elements, but
for me No. 8 was the strongest.

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CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you.

Next is Robert.
MR. HOGE:

I have to go with No. 7.

was the third preference for the site.

This

I think the

mother bird and two little chicks set out well against
the sand, compete with them in the background.

See

the lighthouse.
I think there might be a few too many birds
in No.

7.

You see the what are they, oystercatchers

flying above.

There isn't enough detail to be

distinguishable on those to be representative, enough
negative space.
But for Block Island, it is a bird sanctuary
and every one of these features the birds.
that's appropriate.

I think

Maybe it's a good idea to include

two species on No. 7 for this reason.
I kind of like all of them.

I thought they

were all appealing.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Robert.

Erik, what do you think of the birds?
MR. JANSEN:

Steve, if a dead fish kills a

painting, how about a bird in the hand?

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Put me out of my misery on this set, guys.
I'm going to go with No. 2 because I think
it will be the strongest contrast.

I think the bird

would make a very interesting coin with its wing
stroke, which kind of grabs me.
No. 8, these look like orioles or robins or
some terrestrial bird; they don't strike me as a beach
bird. The physicality is wrong.

The lineary body is

wrong. It's just not working for me in No. 8.
So I'm just going to leave it at that and go
with No. 2 and call it a day.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thanks, Erik.

Heidi?
MS. WASTWEET:
could get behind.
pleasant.

There are several here that I

I think that Design No. 1 is very

Because the background is soft the birds

stand out.

The lighthouse is big enough the sculptors

can simplify it enough it could work.
1 is fine.

I think Design

Not a lot of polish, but it works nice.

Design No. 2 is nice.

Design 8 also has a

nice negative space, good movement.
speaks to the sanctuary nature.

The local bird

The building is

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simplified, lots of polish area.
Also nice Design 10.

The bird is bold.

It's a unique bird to that area.
you see everywhere.

It's not a gull that

The piping plover is a nice

representation. Those are all nice.
I will speak to Design 4, 4-A and 5 all
together because they're variations.

You can plug in

any one of those.
So we've seen throughout these pages we've
seen a few that break that barrier of the coin.

And

as Don describes, in order to make that work, the
sculpture has to go very shallow and there has to
incuse a little bit into the rim.
When you put a bird wing out into the edge,
that's fine because you can do that.

But when you

have a bird head break that line, you've got a problem
because that's not going to go into that rim as well
as just having the bird tip.
So the version 4 and 4-A would be
technically difficult, which then brings us to 5,
which we don't have that problem.
CHAIR LANNIN:

No. 5 we culled.

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MS. WASTWEET:

And No. 5 we culled.

I applaud the attempt at some interesting
perspective.

It's too much layering, too much detail

for the size of the coin.
I'm not going to support any of those.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you.

Herman?
MR. VIOLA:
these.

As a bird lover, I loved all of

These are quite beautiful designs.
But again, to be repetitious, I did like No.

2. I think that's a very effective drawing or design.
But I say my favorite would be No. 10.
The piping plover is so dominant it's like
our loon: You can't misjudge it.

So I think it's a

very effective design and I think it will be an
effective coin.
Thank you.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Herman.

Michael?
MR. MORAN:

I love to photograph birds.

I try my skills at getting them in flight.
I do okay, sometimes I don't.

And

Sometimes

And sometimes the bird

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doesn't cooperate and its wings are all down like on
No. 2, and I hit the delete button.
birds in that position.

I just don't like

I know they get there, but to

me it's not picturesque; it's not art, it's function.
I'm not going to be supporting that.
No. 8 is good, makes good use of negative
space. You have the iconic lighthouse in the
background.

But the birds, when you get to a quarter,

are not strong enough to really identify as shorebirds
to me; they could be any kind of birds flushed out.
That gets me back to No. 1.
completely missed No. 1.
potential.

I had

Sorry about that.

No. 1 has

I think, though, that the footprints in

the path there are too heavy, too distracting, and if
we do choose that we need to soften those footprints
in a beach path.

I think that's backlight.

Anyway, let's go to No. 10.
that I really like.

That's the one

As Herman says, it's distinctive.

You have that iconic structure in the background, it's
not overpowering.

You've got great negative space

around that bird.

It's what we want.

It's well

executed, and I think it easily identifies with the

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park, both the bird and the lighthouse.
And that's my personal favorite.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Michael.

Steve?
MR. ROACH:

I agree with the site preference

in the CFA recommendation for Design No. 2.
Something I would make a comment on about
Design No. 8, which seems to have some support, I
don't get any sense of it being an island.
sense of water.

I get no

The birds don't give me a sense of

being shorebirds.

And the house feels like a sad,

lonely, Edward Hopper style house.
Thank you.
CHAIR LANNIN:
Hopper.

Okay, a reference to Edward

That's cool.
All right, Jeanne?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Thank you very much.

Rhode Island is my home town so I have a
great opinion of this particular quarter.
You can't walk on Rhode Island beaches or
Massachusetts beaches without seeing plovers; that's
what's there.

So the artist portrayed the piping

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plovers in No. 3, that's kind of the way they are,
flitting around.

They're great fun and very

beautiful.
I think I can't back 4-A and 5 because, as
Heidi said, there's too much layering there.

I don't

think it's going to be very clear, although 5 is
terribly interesting because you get the lift over
that lighthouse and the lighthouse really is
important.
I applaud the artist for giving a sense of
sand dunes and the fact that, you know, you can wander
between them and see behind them.
beautiful beautiful drawing.
up as a lovely metal.

This is a very

I think it would strike

But as a quarter I think so

much would be lost, so I can't put my vote behind
that.
I'm going to have to go with the third
choice, No. 10, because that is Block Island.

We have

the island, we have the sand dunes, we have the sand,
we have the rocks.

You can't mistake that plover.

think it's going to be quite beautiful.

I like the

fact that there's space, negative space around it,

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negative space around the lighthouse.

This has my

vote totally.
Thank you.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you.

Donald?
MR. SCARINCI:

I've vacationed on Block

Island. I like No. 1.

And I think this does come down

to 1 and 8, honestly.

Personally I think, Mike, you

said it exactly right:
function.

I don't know what's particularly attractive

about No. 2.
small.

It's function, No. 2 is

And the lighthouse is really kind of

You do get the sense of it being an island.
I get a good feeling about No. 1.

And I

hope it's not just from the picture, you know.
it's not just from the picture.
is a more conservative play.

I hope

I think No. 2 again

The bird doesn't really

do much for me, the lighthouse is too small.
What you do get in No. 2 is you do get a
sense of beach.

Again, the beach that you're getting

is going to be really too small.

So again, No. 2 does

a lot of things, but it does too many things.

So I

just don't, I just don't, I just don't care for it.

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I think it's really between No. 1 and No.
10.

I can see why people like No. 10.

We keep asking

for focus, and on a small pallet you want to see one
thing.

And here you definitely see the birds, but I

think you see the lighthouse is just too far in the
distance.

I agree with Steve.

You don't see the

beach or get a sense of beach from No. 10.
I like No. 1.

I'll definitely give No. 10 a

like, and I'll give No. 5 a like too by the way.
CHAIR LANNIN:

It's been culled.

MR. SCARINCI:

Anyway, thank you.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Tom?

MR. URAM:

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

I'm just going to go right to No. 10.

With

all the complaints that have been said on the other
ones I would tend to agree.
As much as I do like No. 1 and No. 2, No. 10
maybe you could add a little bit more to the
foreground there to create that beachy atmosphere.

It

reminds me when you look at it, it reminds me if
you've been on the beach late in the day, the solitude
looking effect, a calming effect with the bird the way

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it is you can almost hear the bird chirping with the
way it has its mouth and so forth.
That's going into a whole lot more than you
would with a quarter when you're looking at the
designs here.

And I think it also complements every

other one of the ones that we've considered as
designs.
So I just like the calming, solitude effect
of the design.

And if we could make it a little bit

more looking sandy somehow in roughing that up a
little bit I think that would set it off nicely.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I think those little,

I first thought those were little stones.
not; it's sea foam.

They're

So when the beach, when the waves

are coming up, the bird is running along the top of
that sea foam of the waves.

We're sort of sitting in

the water looking up on to the beach, so it's sea
foam.
Is there some way, Don, you can depict that,
some way we can make that not polish glossy, but that
would have to be textured because it's foamy.

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Thank you.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay, Jeanne.

I too like No. 10.
business.

Thank you.

That little bird means

And I like the fact that we can see the

lighthouse in the back.

It's got some nice

perspective.
I thought the CFA choice was a CFA choice.
And I do like No. 1 because the lighthouse is a little
bit more prominent.
No. 4 and 4-A, even though we culled 5, how
many saw The Birds with Tippie Hedron and saw the
schoolhouse, which is in Bodega Bay, California.
That's all I could think of when I looked at it.
MR. EVERHART:

I have a question for you.

Why, when the birds attacked in the movie,
did they take the kids outside?
CHAIR LANNIN:

Bad parenting?

I don't know.

MR. EVERHART:

Just wandering.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Is there any more discussion

on any of the state quarters?
MR. SCARINCI:

Note that didn't happen on

Block Island.

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CHAIR LANNIN:

I would like to ask the

Committee to give their thumbs up or thumbs down in
Heidi and Erik and Michael's new system to do our
vote, hand them in. Tom will read out scores.

We'll

take a much needed break, and get back here at about
in ten minutes at 8:20.
MR. JANSEN:

Madam Chair, are we doing

audience comments?
CHAIR LANNIN:

At the end.

MR. SCARINCI:

For the people, the end is

near. All we got to do is tally the votes on this.
That's done on the break.
coins, two Obama medals.

And we've got two Obama
And we've got to do about

the palladium, going to be hearing about the
palladium, which shouldn't take that long.
(Short break.)
CHAIR LANNIN:

Ladies and gentlemen, I'd

like to call the meeting back to order, please.

We're

all out of order.
Megan, how are you doing?
MS. SULLIVAN:

Need more time?

Give me another three

minutes.

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MR. WEINMAN:

Let's go on to the next item.

MS. SULLIVAN:

All right.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

We'd now like to turn

the discussion of designs for the President Obama
presidential medal.
April, would you discuss them, please?
MS. STAFFORD:

The United States

presidential medals have their origin in the earliest
days of our nation when medals were presented to
American Indian chiefs and other important leaders.
These medals, known as Indian peace medals,
featured an image of the president on the obverse with
symbols of friendship and peace on the reverse.
The medals ultimately became the
presidential medals featuring a portrait of the
president on the obverse with elements such as
inaugural dates, terms of office, presidential symbols
and seals and excerpts from speeches on the reverse.
Presidents who serve more than one term are
often honored with two medals, one highlighting each
of their terms.

Since the 1960s, with the exception

of Ronald Reagan, all presidents who served more than

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one term have been honored with two medals.
The United States Mint worked closely with
the office of the whitehouse chief of staff in
development of these designs.

We initially presented

them with a robust portfolio of a wide variety of
designs.

After review, our liaison indicated that the

following designs were preferred for the medal.
For the term 1 obverse and the term 2
reverse, the liaison requests comments from the CFA
and CCAC before identifying a preferred variation.
we will show term 1 obverses first.

So

There are two.

Both obverse one and two feature a youthful
portrait of President Obama with the inscription
Barack Obama.

This is Design 1, which is closer up,

and 2, pulled back a bit.
And there is one design to be considered for
the term 1 reverse.

Reverse 1 features a quote from

President Obama beneath the presidential seal.

The

quote reads, Our destiny is not written for us, it is
written by us.

The additional inscription is January

20, 2009, the date of President Obama's inauguration.
Beneath the date is the president's signature.

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design is bordered by 50 stars.
Moving on to term 2 obverse, we have one for
consideration.

Obverse 1 for term 2 features a

traditional profile of President Obama with the
inscription, Barack Obama.
And for the term 2 reverses, there are two.
Reverse 1 and reverse 2 for term 2 feature a quote
from President Obama beneath an image of the
whitehouse.

The quote is, the single most powerful

word in our democracy (sic) is the word "we."
people.

We shall overcome.

We the

Yes we can.

An additional inscription beneath the
whitehouse reads January 20, 2013, the date of
President Obama's second inauguration.

The designs

also feature President Obama's signature, and 50 stars
around the border.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, April.

I'd like to begin the discussion with Mr.
Scarinci.
MR. SCARINCI:
us to do is very simple.

I think what they're asking
If I can perhaps suggest, if

we all agree, maybe we can just do this on a motion or

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a simple show of hands, whatever you want to do.

I

think it's very simple.
We have the luxury, the beauty of really
seeing his first term medal together with his second
term medal. So when you put your hand in the middle
and eliminate the second obverse and eliminate the
first reverse, you have a pair of presidential medals
that go perfectly together.
You have the larger head in both obverse in
the first term medal and the second term medal, and
you have the simpler, cleaner reverse in the first
term medal as well as the second term medal.
If it's acceptable to everybody, I'd like to
make a motion that we go with obverse 1 for the first
term inaugural medal, and I'd like to make a motion
that we also go with reverse 2 for the second
inaugural medal.
MR. MORAN:

Second.

CHAIR LANNIN:

All in favor?

Opposed?

(Vote.)
CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. SCARINCI:

Okay.

Motion carries.

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CHAIR LANNIN:

All right.

So now we will

quickly go back to the scoring for the America the
Beautiful.
MR. URAM:

Madam Chairman, here are the

results from the America the Beautiful.

Pictured

Rocks, No. 1 had two votes, No. 2 one vote, No. 3 had
11 votes, No. 4 had three votes, No. 5 had three
votes.

No. 6 and 7 zero, No. 8 had eight, No. 9 had

12, No. 10 had zero, No. 11, zero, and No. 12 had 25.
No. 13, zero.
You want to give the total possible votes?
CHAIR LANNIN:

This would be 25 votes out of

a possible perfect total of 33.
MR. URAM:

Correct.

Moving along, the Apostle Islands National
Lakeshore, Wisconsin, No. 1 had six votes, No. 2 had
seven votes, No. 4 had 14 votes, No. 4-A had nine
votes, No. 5 had zero, 5-A had zero, No. 9 had 12, No.
10 and No. 11 had zero.
American the Beautiful Voyagers National
Park, No. 1 had 19 votes, No. 3 had eight votes, No. 4
had zero votes, No. 5 had eight votes, and No. 6 had

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20 votes.
CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. URAM:

Yay loons.

Okay.

Cumberland Island National

Seashore, Georgia, No. 1 had two votes, No. 2 had five
votes, No. 3 had 30 votes, No. 4 had zero, No. 5 had
14, No. 6 had one, No. 8 had one, No. 9 had zero, and
all the way through 14 was zero.
Block Island National Wildlife Refuge, Rhode
Island, No. 1 had eight votes, No. 2 had 11 votes, No.
3, 4, and 4-A, zero votes, No. 5 had one vote, No. 6
had zero, No. 7 had seven, No. 8 had eight, No. 9 had
zero, No. 10 had 26, No. 11 had zero.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. JANSEN:
reported?

Thank you.
Will the merit votes also be

And how?
MS. SULLIVAN:
MR. JANSEN:

I didn't have time.
I don't mean today.

Will they

be in the minutes for feedback to the artists?
CHAIR LANNIN:

They'll be recorded in the

minutes.
MR. JANSEN:

Thank you.

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CHAIR LANNIN:

So the winners and still

standing, actually -MR. WEINMAN:

Pictured Rocks.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Pictured Rocks, the winner is

No. 12 with 25 votes.

Apostle Island winner, No. 1

with 16 votes.
MR. JANSEN:

I don't think that's sufficient

to get a selection.
MR. SCARINCI:

Can I suggest?

I mean, I

think somebody, I think Mike, somebody had suggested
that 4 and 4-A, or maybe it was you Jeanne, somebody
suggested that we consider 4 and 4-A together.
MR. JANSEN:

You can't just add their scores

together.
MR. SCARINCI:
scores together.

You can't just add their

But if you do, it wins.

MR. JANSEN:

That's not what the vote

represents.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I think that, in order

for that to work -- Heidi made the suggestion - in
order for it to work that way we would've had to pair
them before the voting.

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MS. WASTWEET:

We didn't do that.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

We didn't do that.

That's kind of too bad .
MS. WASTWEET:

At first I thought that they

were qualified as variations of each other.

But

having the vote there or not there, that's a pretty
fair way to go, voting them separately.
And yeah, 16 is not a strong enough vote to
make it a formal recommendation.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

So can we make a

motion? Shall I make a motion?
Okay, I move that we should reconsider No. 1
as a recommendation.
CHAIR LANNIN:

You want to reconsider it?

You're not happy with it.

Is that what you mean?

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Well, we didn't have

enough votes.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
you know.

I'm sorry.
Sort of reconsider,

Those of us who did not vote for it, do we

reconsider this as being one to move that?

Or do you

think we should reconsider voting 4 or 4-A?

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MR. MORAN:

Make a motion to consider No. 1

as a choice.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Second?

I move that we

consider No. 1 as our recommendation.
CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. VIOLA:

Is there a second?

Second.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Herman seconds.

All in favor.
MR. JANSEN:
CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. JANSEN:

Could we have discussion first?
Okay.
I think you actually could

simulate a vote here by looking at the ballots and
seeing if essentially, by scoring as the higher of the
two you can get a simulated 4-4-A as a single unit.
think that vote is reconstruction.

I

It's not as simple

as adding 14 and nine.
CHAIR LANNIN:

We just said that we were

voting on these individually.
MR. JANSEN:

We didn't during the vote.

voted on them collectively.

I

So I would have given --

I voted on 4 and 4-A collectively.

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MS. WASTWEET:

Can I suggest even if we

raised the score to 16 it's still not a strong vote.
Can I ask April, do we have the capacity to
revisit this with some fresh designs based on our
feedback?

Or are we -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

There's a motion on

the table.
MR. JANSEN:

We're discussing it.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

And we're discussing

it. But we're discussing not that motion, we're
discussing something else.
We need to discuss whether we're going to
accept that and if we're not, then we can reconsider
No. 4.
MS. WASTWEET:

I'm not talking about 4, I'm

talking about your motion.
CHAIR LANNIN:

What we're talking about is

Jeanne's original motion where we would consider
choice No. 1 with 16 votes to be the Committee's
choice, their recommendation.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
CHAIR LANNIN:

Right.

Their recommendation, and

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Herman seconded that motion.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. JANSEN:
problem.

And now we vote on it.

The regular vote is the

I don't think we have a well understood vote

here is the problem.
I don't know how 16 stacks up against other
numbers.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. JANSEN:

What is the motion?

We're in discussion.

I think

we have a right to have discussion.
MR. SCARINCI:

I think I'm just going to

vote against the motion so that we can just toss it to
the secretary.
At this point, you know, we've done our job
and the CFA has done their job and, you know, we
should toss it to the secretary and let them decide.
MS. WASTWEET:

I agree.

There is a motion on the floor.

We're

voting on Jeanne's motion.
All in favor of having the first choice, 16
votes, be our choice.

All in favor?

(Vote.)

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CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. JANSEN:

Motion fails.

You might have an abstain.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Is there anyone who would

abstain from this?
MR. MORAN:

I did want to ask, somebody

started to ask April, do we have time to go back and
try again?
MS. STAFFORD:
MR. MORAN:

Sorry?

These all were so good.

This

one was just not on -MR. JANSEN:

It is 2018.

MS. STAFFORD:

What I would say is, I think

the Committee should make their recommendation that
the Committee feels is appropriate for this portfolio.
If there isn't a recommendation, and that
would be your collective consensus, that the artists
need to come back with further designs, that's what we
would take away.
MR. MORAN:

That's what I'm going to move.

MR. JANSEN:

I'll second that.

The vote

failed.
CHAIR LANNIN:

The vote failed.

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All in favor of Mike's motion to have the
artists reconsider the entire Apostle Island portfolio
-MS. WASTWEET:

We should discuss it before

CHAIR LANNIN:

Want to discuss?

MS. WASTWEET:

Jeanne, you wanted to say

we vote.

something?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
need to send this back.

Yes.

I don't think we

I think that's too much to

ask to have the artists -- I think they did a
wonderful job of trying to execute our desires, and I
think they've done it.
The only question that I have, following the
discussion that we had, was No. 4, No. 4 and 4-A.
Here's another thought, and someone -- I
will carry this through.

Since this was not

understood whether we were going to vote for it as a
pair or whether we were going to vote for it
individually, I think we need to reconsider not
anything else but the vote and how we voted on this
particular pair.

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It's true they are very different but
they're very close.

There was a misunderstanding

during the voting, as Erik had a misunderstanding, and
I think it's only fair to the artists and to the
Committee to follow through and just have us
reconsider our own votes for 4 and 4-A.
If we get 17 or 18 on this one or whatever
or not, then we can reconsider or revisit the motion
that was turned down.
MR. WEINMAN:

Make the motion to make them

collectively is your recommendation.
MR. MORAN:

We have a motion on the floor.

I'm willing to cede the floor to Jeanne and do it this
way, and then we'll get back to kicking it back if we
don't get something.
CHAIR LANNIN:

There's an intervening

motion.
MR. WEINMAN:
CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. WEINMAN:

To consider -To consider 4 and 4-A.
Collectively as your

recommendation.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Collectively.

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MR. WEINMAN:

As the Committee's

recommendation.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Who would like to second

that?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. WEINMAN:
CHAIR LANNIN:

I'll second that.

You made the motion.
Would anyone else like to

second it?
MR. URAM:

I will.

In other words, are we

going to vote for 1 and 4 and 4-A?
MR. WEINMAN:

No. 4 and 4-A is the

recommendation.
MR. URAM:

What were vote totals for 4 and

4-A?
CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. URAM:

They were 14 and nine.

That's fine.

CHAIR LANNIN:

I'll second it.

Any discussion about that?

All in favor of making No. 4 with 14 votes and 4-A
with nine votes collectively the single recommendation
as -- Erik?
MR. JANSEN:
experiment here.

We're kind of dealing with an

And the thought behind the

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experiment was, in a situation where you have, as this
is, two very similar designs essentially collapse them
into a single voting entity.

And if that collapsed

entity was selected, we then do a discriminating
motion.
So I just want to put it out there that I
don't think we should send two very similar designs
up.

I think as a committee, if we converge on the 4-

4-A combined, I would encourage the Committee to
consider then deciding between the two, so a two-step
process, Madam Chair.
CHAIR LANNIN:

So would that require a

double motion?
MR. WEINMAN:

Needs an explanation.

The

motion is still on the table.
MR. JANSEN:

I think what we'd be doing here

-- and Heidi, isn't that in the mind that we talked
about in collapsing the vote for common designs, then
come back and articulate which version of that common
design -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
CHAIR LANNIN:

That's good.

Thank you for the

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explanation.
Any further discussion or explanation?

All

in favor?
(Vote.)
CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. WEINMAN:

Motion fails.

CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. MORAN:

It fails.

Michael?

I move we send it back.

MR. JANSEN:
CHAIR LANNIN:

I'll stand by my second.
All in favor of sending the

designs back?
(Vote.)
CHAIR LANNIN:

Motion passes.

Okay.

Voyagers, the loon, the loon made it with 20
votes out of a possible 33 for Voyagers National Park.
And Cumberland was our outstanding vote of
the night has 30 votes for the turtle.
And Block Island, Jeanne's little piping
plover made it with 26, design No. 10.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Thank you.

CHAIR LANNIN:

We've done

Okay.

presidential medals.

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We're going to move on and we're going to
introduce Ron Harrigal, who will be talking to the
Committee about the future of the palladium program.
MS. STAFFORD:

Actually, Madam Chair, I'm

going to be doing a little bit of an introduction
before Mr. Harrigal speaks.
On December 4, 2015, the president signed
into law the Fixing America's Surface Transportation
Act, which is public law 114-94, hereinafter referred
to as the Fast Act.
The Fast Act amended palladium coin
legislation requiring the secretary of the treasury to
mint and issue bullion coins weighing one troy ounce
and containing .9995 fine palladium with face value of
$25.

Also authorized are proof and uncirculated

numismatic versions of the palladium coin.
Legislation requires the obverse design of
the palladium coin to bear a high relief likeness of
the winged Liberty obverse on the Mercury dime.

This

design was created by famed American sculptor and
medalic artist Adolph A. Weinman in 1916.
The legislation additionally specified the

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reverse design of the palladium coin is to bear a high
relief version of the 1907 American Institute of
Architects, AIA, gold medal reverse design.

This work

featuring an eagle was also created by Adolph A.
Weinman, and commissioned in late 1906 by the AIA
specifically for their gold medal award.
The gold medal is the AIA's highest honor
given annually in recognition of the work of
individuals who have had a lasting influence on
architecture.
Earlier this year, the United States Mint
contacted the AIA regarding the design of their gold
medal.

The AIA generously permitted the Mint to scan

their original 14-inch plaster of the 1907 gold medal
reverse, allowing the Mint to digitally capture the
three dimensional information.
Currently, the Mint is conducting research
and development to execute the palladium coin in high
relief. Required descriptions for the reverse of the
coin include United States of America, the
denomination, the weight of the coin, the fineness of
the metal, and e pluribus unum.

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We have with us today Ron Harrigal, senior
advisor and the Mint's manufacturing director to talk
about the research and development phase of this
important annual program.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, April.

MR. HARRIGAL:

Thank you.

Welcome,

Ron.

wonderful introduction.

That was a

Thank you, April.

Yes, this is interesting legislation.
came out in I believe originally 2012.
subject to a marketing study.

It

And it was

And of course the study

was not positive to go on with the program.
And later another law came through and took
the marketing study out, so everything else is there
that we have to work with.
Some few notable provisions in the law that
April didn't mention, and one is the bullion version
is not to be made at West Point.
significant provision.

That's a pretty

That's stated in the law; we

have no choice on that.
Another is if we do make a proof version
that the proof version is made at West Point, so

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there's clearly some language there that we have to
follow.
Also, to the greatest extent possible, the
surface treatment on the proof coin should change in a
material way every year.
MR. JANSEN:

Is it a multi year series?

MR. HARRIGAL:

Well, okay.

Let's go back

and see, this is what's in the legislation.
The bullion coin is stated by law as a
requirement.

The proof coin we are authorized to

make, which makes it an optional product.

So our

initial study that we're going through is to source
palladium blanks that can make a bullion coin.

That

would be our traditional wire-brush type finish that
we use on the bullion products, so we would make it in
a similar fashion.
There are a couple of other items here that
are not in the law.

The law does not specify diameter

of the coin, nor does it specify the date of
introduction.
So what we've seen on previous programs that
we've developed, developing a new alloy can be a bit

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cumbersome, especially when you have an item like
palladium that there's only, right now, one active
mint making palladium coins.

That's the Canadian

mint.
So we reached out to the Canadian mint,
talked to them.

We also have suppliers that we're

talking to. We've been engaging in discussions with
our procurement department with multiple suppliers and
at this point in time, we are in the process of -- if
we have not ordered yet we will be ordering shortly -it's been requisitioned working with some of the
suppliers.
There's developmental work that the
suppliers have to do.

And to have any kind of

sustainable program, you're going to definitely need
reliable suppliers, and we're looking to more than one
supplier here.
know.

We learned our lesson on platinum, you

There are market issues that make a sometimes

defective supply chain, and we're hoping that we can
avoid that with this program by working with multiple
suppliers.
So key to the success for us was to develop

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a robust supply chain; at least one obviously, but
more than one supplier.

We've been working with the

vendors for quite some time; had discussions at the
world money fair with some of the vendors that were
there, and have been going from that point on.
I can say one thing that we did back in
2005. We did do a test with palladium.

We had some

quarter size planchets that we got from GoldCorp at
that point in time, and we struck some Martha
Washington nonsense designs on them.

The observations

back then was it looked promising. Developmental work
is needed.
So we had enough planchets left over from
that program that we could look at.

And we analyzed

the planchets and found that they really didn't meet
the specs that we believe we need for the palladium
program.
We're looking to spec a planchet that is
very similar to our platinum program: very fine grain
structure, a certain hardness, certain surface
roughness finish on it.

And one of the keys to making

a good coin here is the upset profile, working with

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that.
So a lot of developmental work we have to
work with on our suppliers, and it's going to take
multiple iterations working with them to get the
blanks.

We're just starting the process.

We expect

there will be, you know, a minimum of two, maybe four,
who knows how many iterations we're going to need to
work with the suppliers.
But this takes time.

They have to figure

out their operating parameters, how to do the
reduction, how to get the right grain size.

This is

not a walk in the park and it's going to take some
time.
So, you know, the fortunate thing is that
there is no stated start date for the program;
however, I can say that we are working diligently to
try to get this thing out as quickly as we can.
I think that's pretty much all that I can
provide for you right now.

What I'd like to do is

open it up and talk about any kind of questions,
roundtable discussions, anything that you may have at
this point.

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MR. JANSEN:

So Ron, it's not like, in other

words, we're not talking about a 2016 dated coin?
MR. HARRIGAL:

Most likely not.

We're trying to get through a lot of
development in 2016.

The issue you have, once you

develop the parameters and you come up with the
specifications you need for the planchets, the
suppliers have to make the planchets.
And, you know, obviously we're looking to
satisfy demand.

That's a big question:

demand of this product?

What is the

There's some experience that

the Canadians have, but we have no experience with it.
So, you know, we're working for it.
Obviously the No. 1 priority is to get the bullion
coin out on the market.

At some point in time, if we

get the right specification -- and we are trying to
develop the planchets for a proof coin.
If we don't make that mark initially, we may
introduce the coin as a bullion only the first year
and then follow up with a proof once we get the
planchet more refined.
So that's, you know, there's a lot of

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uncertainty at this point on the program but the
supply chain is obviously the key.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Ron, isn't it brittle metal?

MR. HARRIGAL:

Actually, it's not.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay, no.

MR. HARRIGAL:

You know, we suspect that

it's going to coin similar to platinum but our
experience tells us that maybe it's not quite as bad.
If you look at the metallurgical
characteristics on it, you know, if you get the
planchet developed right with the right upset profile,
this may be a fairly robust program for us, a fairly
efficient program.
I can say that palladium is a metal that is
used in catalytic converters.
picks up debris a lot.

It's very reactive.

It

So once we get it into

production, there's going to be an experience there.
And we're talking about benchmarking with a Canadian
mint to find out what their experience is.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Are they being cooperative?

MR. HARRIGAL:

Oh, yes, very.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Great.

Does anybody have any

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idea how many they sell in a year?
MR. URAM:

I thought it was significant, but

I don't know who told me that or where that came from.
CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. URAM:

How much?

More than we expected.

MR. HARRIGAL:

There were a couple of years

I believe they were upwards of 50,000 in that
timeframe for a couple of years, and then it dropped
off and they didn't sell them all.
So it seemed like there was initially a lot
of interest.

And now they've, I believe the past two

years they've also reintroduced it, but they still
haven't sold everything.
I think there's interest out there, but
whether it's more of a novelty interest or for what I
don't know. It's not your usual format for an
investment of precious metals.
MR. URAM:

Half the cost of platinum .

MR. JANSEN:

So this would logically be an

ongoing multi year program.

But the reverse changes

every year?
MR. HARRIGAL:

No, the design doesn't change

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every year.
But if we introduce a proof version of the
coin, then they would look to see some sort of change,
and that we would go from like a proof maybe to a
reverse proof to a selectively polished proof.
MR. JANSEN:

Oh, okay.

So that option kind

of moves around.
MR. HARRIGAL:

And obviously you're going to

get to a point where you're going to end up repeating.
MR. JANSEN:

So is there any work to be done

on the artwork of this coin?

Or is it pretty much

prescribed and bolted down?
MR. HARRIGAL:
MR. JANSEN:

Well, there's -Does it say it shall be or it

shall be like?
MR. HARRIGAL:

It's a likeness.

I think

really where all the work is going to be is placing
the inscriptions so that they fit and flow with the
design. You know, I mean, there's some work involved
there and we'll be looking at that.
I mean, the obverse artwork, the Winged
Liberty we already have.

We did a lot of work on the

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Mercury dime, the gold Mercury dime version so we have
good artwork there.
We're restoring the artwork on the reverse
from the scanned plaster.

The plaster appeared to be

worn. The metal showed more detail than the plaster
had.

So we're filling in the gaps so to speak.
We'll have that, you know, we'll have that

in time to do some testing and that.

But we want to

definitely make sure that, you know, we get the design
correct so that we can push the high relief on it.
One thing that you-all didn't ask, which I
thought maybe you would is, what size are we going to
make the coin?
One thing we have to watch is, we've got a
lot of different metals that we're working with here.
And so to mistake proof our operations, we're going to
probably be between the American Eagle gold coin size
and our commemorative dollar size.

But it will be

between 32.7 and 38.1, somewhere in that range.
That will allow us to give it more thickness
to be able to pull the high relief up.
MR. JANSEN:

What diameter is the Canadian

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version?

Why wouldn't the procurement committee say

just pile in and do their diameter?

The market would

be happier.
MR. HARRIGAL:
MR. JANSEN:
MR. MORAN:

They're not high relief.
Thank you.

High relief using the same

definition you did with the $100 gold coin?
MR. HARRIGAL:

Well, we're going to have, I

mean, the high relief, really we work off the ratio
from the thickness to the diameter.

So anything that

we come up with high relief, it's got to be, the
thickness has to be thicker in relation to the
diameter than any of our standard product, and that
allows us to make it in high relief.
MR. MORAN:
.025 inches?

I think you said the minimum

I might have missed a zero.

MR. HARRIGAL:

Yeah, I'm not exactly sure

how that, you know, translates on this coin.

It's

going to be part due to how much we can push the, how
much thickness we can get and how much we can push the
metal down to pop that up.
Now, you realize that both the obverse and

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reverse have a lot of real estate in them.

The

Mercury dime is a large obverse.
MR. MORAN:

Yes, it is.

MR. HARRIGAL:

And the eagle is very much

like the standing or the walking Liberty reverse
except the eagle has the head down.

That's a very

large volume as well, so it's going to be a real
challenge to get high relief on this coin.
MR. MORAN:

I would agree with you.

Did you all ever consider the privy mark
instead of the fineness and weight designation?

That

eats up space.
MR. HARRIGAL:
legislation.

I'm not sure what's in the

The legislation may tie our hands there.

That's something that our legal department would have
to take a look at.
MR. MORAN:
consider it.

If it's legal, you sure ought to

There's nothing more --

everybody knows

what I think.
MR. WEINMAN:

The coin shall bear such other

descriptions, including, Liberty, in God we trust,
United States of America, the denomination and weight

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of the coin, the fineness of the metal as the
secretary determines to be appropriate in keeping with
the original design.
So there's some flexibility.
MR. MORAN:

My question is moot.

MR. TUCKER:

Can I comment on that?

I actually thought about that since our
conversation.

And when I was studying the American

Arts gold medallions, part of the failure of that
program was that there was no indication of fineness
or even of the metal content, the weight or anything.
There were other problems.

The medals didn't have the

name of United States of America for one thing.
But I wonder if there are certain things
that bullion buyers like to see that might not be
artistic but at least it tells them what they're
buying.

So that might be an issue.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Any other questions for Ron?

Thank you.
MR. HARRIGAL:

Okay.

Thank you, Madam

CHAIR LANNIN:

We'll look forward to asking

Chair.

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you further questions.
The final item will be April up again
talking to us about with an update about the 2017
American Liberty high relief 24 carat gold.
MS. STAFFORD:

Yes, ma'am.

We just wanted

to put onto the record an update to some information
that was shared at the March 15, 2016 CCAC meeting.
There, candidate designs were presented for
potential 2017 American Liberty high relief 24 carat
gold coin and silver medal.
The Committee was advised that, if
authorized, the gold coin would receive edge lettering
to complement dual dates on the obverse celebrating
the 225 anniversary of the United States Mint.
At that time, the Mint stated that it
planned, if the program went forward, to use the
inscription 225 years of American coinage.

But after

further consideration, again if the program moves
forward and is authorized, the Mint will propose using
the inscription, 225 anniversary in three evenly
spaced positions along the edge of the gold coin.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you very much.

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Okay, this is the end of our official
meeting. And thank you all for staying up late.
Since we're in Colorado Springs and have
some coin enthusiasts in the audience, I would like to
open up to a public forum.

It's almost 10 after 9:00.

I think we can stay here till about 9:30.

If anyone

would like to ask any of the members any questions
regarding the CCAC, and keep your remarks brief, Bob.
Please state your name for the record,
please.
MR. CAMPBELL:

Sure.

My name is Bob

Campbell. I'm past president of the ANA, and I have a
coin shop called All About Coins.
I feel like I'm on the front line of the
coin industry.

We deal with a lot of families and

collectors, and sell over a million dollars a month in
coins in my coin shop.

So I'm dealing with young

people all the time. They love the America quarter
program, the America the Beautiful program.
One thing, if I could make just a comment,
keeping the design simple is what everybody seems to
comment on.

They have a hard time really

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understanding what's really going on, especially kids.
This is a strange world that you live in
that you're looking at a three-quarter inch design,
and you have to have this wonderful metal for the
artistic design to really pop out.
I got to compliment the Mint.

The designs

from the first 50 state quarter program to this are
completely different, much more quality, much more
detail.

And the designs need to be complimented.

I

think you've done a wonderful job.
The other thing I would like to comment, you
know, the Canadian palladium maple leaf is exactly the
same size as their other coins.

They tried to do

that.
I think you're in for a real firestorm with
trying to educate the public for what palladium is.

I

mean, we honestly sell maybe 100 platinum pieces for
every one palladium piece that we currently sell.

The

public just doesn't understand what the metal is, so
you're going to need a lot of extra money to spend;
you're going to have to create your own market. I
think you can do it; I've seen you do it before.

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It's interesting you're kind of on the
ground level so you could actually probably -- I don't
mean to say in a negative way -- steal a lot of
Canada's market in this.

I think it's great to give

them some competition.
CHAIR LANNIN:

We have a loon.

MR. CAMPBELL:

I would congratulate you.

And I found this whole process -- first time I've ever
attended -- really fascinating.

I love to hear your

opinions go back and forth.
Thank you for inviting me.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you for coming, Bob.

Is there any other members of the audience
that would like to ask any of those questions about
the CCAC or what you've seen tonight, or any comments?
MR. SCARINCI:
MR. ELWOOD:

Just hear what you think.
I'm Taylor Elwood.

I realized that there's quite a bit that
goes into the designs of coins, but never before have
I seen the entire process, and how much real effort
and thought is put into these designs.
It really makes me appreciate even more --

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I'm already a coin collector, but even more how much
effort and time is put into these things.

And it

just, from seeing the designs evolve from the early
American coins that I like to collect all the way up
through today, it's just fascinating.
And it makes me want to collect the America
the Beautiful series, in all honesty.
CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. ELWOOD:
turtle design.

We're here to help with that.
And also just the, with the

I think the numismatic hobby is not

one that's particularly popular with young people in
this day and age.

And having coins with turtles or

other animals of the sort could really help bring him
them into the hobby and really help it just stay
keeping, keep the hobby alive and well for the future
generations.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Thank you, Taylor.

Recruit a

bunch of your friends.
Anyone else have any comment about what
they've seen tonight?
MR. CALLMAN:

I have a question or a

comment. I'm just wondering, when we're dealing with

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the America the Beautiful series and state parks, what
kind of weight do you give to the circulating quarter,
and what kind of weight do you give to large silver
9995 ouncer?
There's a lot lower mintage obviously in the
circulating quarter, but the pallets are two
completely different sizes.

What kind of weight do

you give to the one or the other?

Which one gets more

importance for the design?
MR. WEINMAN:

Could you state your name?

MR. CALLMAN:

Seth Callman.

MR. URAM:

I think personally myself, I look

at it just as a quarter because that's what's
circulating; that's what's out there.

It would be too

tough to differentiate.
But really, that's what we focus on is the
circulating proof quarters.
MR. KALMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:

Certainly.
I try to make a balance of my

consideration because it is both.

And not only is it

both a quarter and a larger piece, but we also have to
consider that it's also a digital image.

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A lot of people focus on the image; they see
it on the computer and the amount of detail that they
can see there, so we want to have designs that can
span a whole range.
I think it can be done.
is a good example.

I think the turtle

It will look good as a small

piece, it will look good on the three inch, and when
you blow it up on to your computer screen, you're
going to see all the little details of the bubbles and
the texture of the turtle.
That's a great example of a design that will
balance all of the ways that people look at it.
MR. SCARINCI:

I've never considered the

design on the larger, on the larger pallet.

I really

think that I really consider the design as a quarter
that's going to circulate, and that is the most
commonly circulated coin in America.
MR. KALMAN:
MR. SCARINCI:

Sure.
The quarter is the quarter.

So if it doesn't work, if the design's not working on
that quarter size, for me it's just not working at
all.

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MS. WASTWEET:
SCARINCI:

That's a deal breaker.

Now, having said that, I will

share with you that, since I collect metals in one of
my areas, I do collect the larger size, the larger
size quarters.
I do think, just like the first spouse gold,
I think that's a sleeper series.

I think one day

people are going to wake up and say, Oh, my God,
because you can, as David Ganz actually proved, you
can go take your silver quarter and spend it as a
quarter; it's a legal currency in the United States.
So I think it's a sleeper, you know.
think they are pretty as medals are pretty.

I

And some

of the designs do work better on the larger size.
I am a little surprised that, while some of
the smaller quarters, some of the regular quarters
have not won more awards and just won, two of them
just won coin of the year award while the larger ones
have never won an award.
I don't know why; probably because the
national community doesn't take the large quarter
seriously as a circulating coin.

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CHAIR LANNIN:

Anybody else have any

comments to address?
MR. JANSEN:

I would only say, that's really

an astute question because I think part of our
challenge is part of the materials we get, Show us the
designs in real life size.
visiting.

And it is absolutely worth

And I think we all visit them regularly

going through this.
The point I want to add on top of that is,
look at the congressional and presidential medals we
do.

Same three inch diameter, same as the silver five

ouncers.
When we go through those, you'll find that
there's typically more detail, because we are speaking
to a three inch pallet.

They're available in one and

5-16ths diameter at a cheaper price as well.
There's a lot of optimized art for that
diameter.

Those are really fun designs because

they're so big and we can do so much fun stuff.
CHAIR LANNIN:
have any more comments?
MS. KIICK:

Anyone else in the audience
Kim?

I'm Kim Kiick, ANA executive

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director.

I just want to thank you all for being

here.
I really enjoyed watching the process.

And

it was nice to reiterate, hear you all express, in
your areas of expertise, your analysis of the design.
And I learned stuff today just listening to all of
you.
And it's very organized.
committee?

Eleven people on a

I commend you for that, and thank you.

CHAIR LANNIN:

Applaud this group.

We don't

exist without them.
(Applause.)
MS. KIICK:

Thank you for coming to Colorado

Springs.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Appreciate it.

Thank you for

that.
I think there was another question.

Yes,

sir? Your name, please?
MR. PAONESSA:

Joe Paonessa.

Actually, Kim almost said exactly what I was
thinking.
As an amateur die cutter and wannabe

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medalist, hearing your insights into the design
element and how the layout fits on either size coin,
the proof effects and how that works with the frosted
areas very interesting and very helpful.

Thank you

for all your comments.
MR. SCARINCI:

You know, there's something

I'd like to say about this.

I guess I've been on this

committee the longest .
MS. WASTWEET:

By far.

MR. SCARINCI:

The last time we were here in

Colorado Springs to do one of these meetings was 2010.
And that was not as collegial of a meeting as you just
witnessed today.
A lot of things changed since 2010 as you
can hear, and what you saw, and as you observed.

And

what has dramatically changed is the United States
Mint is listening to us; they're listening to you.
And they want to do better and they want to
produce coins that we're all going to be proud of.
And, you know, it's a democracy so there's no -- in
some countries there's, you know, one or two people
who pick the coin designs.

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That's just not how anything in America
could ever work, you know, as you've just witnessed in
the coin designs.

By keeping, you know, listening,

and having a team of people that are working together
and thinking actually along the same lines I think is
producing some great results.
We just won awards for coins that US coins
haven't received awards for the past six or eight
years previous to this last year, so I think that
makes a statement.
That's really all a result of these people
right here and the Mint director and the previous
acting director, who really gave this, you know, a
thousand percent to get to this point.
And they really deserve a round of applause.
(Applause.)
MR. JANSEN:

I would add something there.

To your particular interests there are two
extraordinary sculptors, deluxe players on this
committee: this woman and Heidi down there.

All that

they say, the minutes of our meetings, there's dial-anumbers and listen and learn more, because that's what

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they do and are really good at.
The second thing I would say is, we were in
the Denver Mint today.

We normally meet at the Mint

headquarters in Washington DC; we're in the director's
office all the time.
On their backup tables are Coin World, all
of them, okay?

So when you write in there and the

letters to the editors get printed, it hits home.
These guys here, they read it, they hear it, they see
it, they feel it.

So participate.

It makes a big

difference.
CHAIR LANNIN:

I believe there was one more

comment.
MR. JOHNSON:

My name is Ross Johnson.

I'm

one of the frequent letters to the editor writers to
Coin World.
CHAIR LANNIN:
MR. JOHNSON:

Have I answered you?
I don't know.

I wanted to say a couple of things.

One is

that collectors really love the classic designs.

We

know that you guys are very strongly invested in
bringing new art and new designs to coins and that's

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wonderful, and you have a wonderful pallet with the
quarter programs and are changing the reverses on the
platinum coins.
Don't forget that some of us love those
classic designs.

And if you need proof, your Mercury

dime that came out in gold sold out in 45 minutes,
120,000 coins.
One suggestion I would make, American eagle
coins are now 30 years old.

You've married a sort of

cartoonish version with St. Gaudens' artwork with a
politically correct reverse.
How wonderful would it have been to restore,
and particularly since St. Gaudens was particularly
sensitive about this, his artwork to the reverse and
resculpt the front and make it look like those classic
20s that we all love.
How many people would like to see that?
Come on, clap.
(Applause.)
MS. WASTWEET:

Can you give some other

examples of how you would like to see classic designs
brought to new light?

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MR. JOHNSON:

Well, I mean, I think it's

difficult for, you know, to just keep reusing them.
Pretty much the best ones you guys have reused.
I mean, the buffalo nickel that you've got
on the pure gold bullion coin is a wonderful thing,
and you're going to go use the Mercury obverse again
on the palladium coin.
Oh, come on.

You like the seated Liberty.

Everybody's got their favorites.

I mean, the fact

that you're coming out with the gold versions of
classic designs is kind a nice set.
The only objection I have to that is that
there's a lot of collectors who can't afford gold
coins; you should do it with silver as well so that,
you know, the younger collectors have something they
can collect and relate to the classic designs.
MS. WASTWEET:

Why would you, as a

collector, want to buy a new classic design instead of
buying the original?
MR. JOHNSON:

I think, well, it really

depends. I just think that people like the idea of
these designs not going away.

And I think on some

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level they could continue to extend their collecting.
For example, you have a gold program where
you have fractions.

You have one tenth ounce, you

have one quarter ounce, one half ounce, and a one
ounce.

They all have the same design.
How cool would it be if you had the Mercury

dime on the tenth ounce, like you just did, the
standing Liberty quarter on the quarter ounce, and the
walking Liberty on the half ounce, and resource the
St. Gaudens on the one ounce.
And if this sounds familiar, it's because
it's being published in one of my letters to the
editors.
But what a beautiful set that would be.

And

it would be a coin that came out every year and it
venerates history, it venerates the best of our
artistic heritage, and everybody loves those designs.
You'll see a sellout on the standing Liberty
quarter and on the walking Liberty.
word for it.

Don't take my

Just look at the numbers.

Look at how

those phones light up.
MS. WASTWEET:

So you're saying a new

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combination, or excuse me, a new size or new material?
MR. JOHNSON:

No, it wouldn't be.

It would

be exactly what you're doing now except using
different dies.
You're already making the tenth ounce,
quarter ounce, and half ounce, but you're using that
same sad interpretation of the St. Gaudens obverse
with the family of eagles on the reverse that we've
looked at for 30 years.
MR. JANSEN:

It's boring.

Question for the Mint.

When we came out with the walking Liberty
gold dime, the diameter on that didn't match the dime
in silver.
MR. JOHNSON:
MR. JANSEN:

Matched the tenth ounce.
It matched the tenth ounce.

Was that the right decision?
MR. JOHNSON:
MR. JANSEN:
MR. JOHNSON:

Yes.
Okay.
If you want to transition

those to the new fractionals, that would be great.
They've already done the work to do the die work.
MR. JANSEN:

My question is, is the diameter

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right to match the current bullion market?
MR. JOHNSON:
MR. JANSEN:

I believe so.
Or match the original issue?

MR. JOHNSON:

No.

I believe that it's the

bullion issue because gold is a denser material than
silver.

And if you were to make it the exact size,

the dime would actually have to be heavier than a
tenth of an ounce.
But they did it successfully -MR. JANSEN:

Oh, the thinness can be

moderated within certain boundaries.
MR. JOHNSON:

Correct.

It would have to be,

if it was the same diameter, it would have to be
thinner.
They did with the Kennedy coin a couple of
years ago or last year.

The Kennedy gold coin was

actually three-quarters of an ounce.

And the reason

for that, I assume, is because they wanted to match
the dimensions as close as they could.
But that required that they use threequarters of an ounce of gold as opposed to a half.
MR. JANSEN:

My question was really a

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marking question.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Bob, did you have another

MR. CAMPBELL:

I did.

question?
I was going to answer

the question about those coin designs, why should we
make the older ones.
It's hope.

Those designs represent America

better than any other designs in American history.
The hope of it.
When I got a chance to testify in front of
the senate banking committee my talk was just about
that.

My mother was an immigrant from Finland.

I

remember her telling me that the first thing she saw
of America was that walking Liberty half dollar.

She

saw hope in that coin.
I think that is the kind of thing you want
to portray to the rest of the world.

If you want to

be the leaders of the world, show it in our coins.
MS. WASTWEET:

I agree they're beautiful

designs and they're inspired, and we all love them.
So our mission of creating new modern designs is not
because we dislike the old design.

We love them.

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My question is -CHAIR LANNIN:

We can't remain static.

MS. WASTWEET:

Well, no.

pursue the modern designs.

We'll continue to

And I'm not opposed to

honoring and revisiting classic designs in parallel.
My question is, when you're choosing what to
buy, for me I would buy an existing classic design,
you know, in a classic year, rather than one that was
struck this year.
So what, to you as a collector, what appeals
to you having these designs restruck instead of -MR. CAMPBELL:

The same reason why I wanted

to collect the classic designs.

I thought they were

beautiful.
MS. WASTWEET:
out there.
clarity?

But the older ones are still

So is it the price difference?

Is it

Do you think the quality is different?
MR. CAMPBELL:

I think it's introducing it

to a whole new generation, trying to see a child as
they grow up and you say, Hey, the year you were born
this was made. And they'll discover it and they'll
collect it because of that interest in it.

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We all have different reasons why we
collect, and that would serve -MS. WASTWEET:

You're saying having the

current year on that classic design is the appeal?
MR. CAMPBELL:

Sure.

popular among collectors.

It would be really

If we want to reenergize

the whole collecting base, we have to figure out a way
to get young people to start collecting more coins;
that should be our first appeal.

Whatever it takes to

get the young people interested.
Your idea with the turtle, people in America
are going to love that turtle just like the world
loves the panda.
sure.

That'll be a collector's thing for

You know, I can't wait for it to come out.

That's what all the kids are going to want to have.
What a great idea.
CHAIR LANNIN:

One more question.

Your

name, please?
MR. PAONESSA:

Joe Paonessa.

Just commenting on your question or your
question on the marketing aspect.
I personally would have preferred the

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Mercury dime to actually be on the full size dime
blank regardless of the weight even if it raised the
weight to a -- obviously it wouldn't be a quarter
ounce anymore, tenth ounce.
But having it match the size to me would be
a little more important than having it match the tenth
ounce quarter, half ounce and up.
I think Heidi said something about she asked
if there was anything we would like to see in the
product.

I would like to see high relief just in the

commemoratives.
With a noncirculating piece it's not that
important because you're not going to be producing
huge numbers.

If the original commemorative program

with the higher relief than the current program is
just it's a more attractive coin.
It's a personal opinion.

I like the higher

relief.
MS. WASTWEET:

We all like the higher

relief.
MR. JANSEN:

Which of the higher reliefs

would be your preference, gold or silver?

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MR. PAONESSA:

From all the products I see

that are NCLT I think they all could use a little more
depth to it.
MR. JANSEN:

In an ultra high relief?

I

mean, in a knock your socks off, Oh, my goodness, look
at that high relief coin, gold or silver?
MR. PAONESSA:

The gold do look, I would say

between the two, the gold do stand out more with that.
The high relief smaller St. Gaudens -- I think was a
2009 -- a beautiful piece.

The 911 anniversary medal

was also a beautiful piece with the multiple laser
frosting on it.
Across the board the effectiveness on like
the 2009 dollar high relief, just adding that makes it
stand out so much more than the issue, and even though
they're higher relief than the current relief.
MR. URAM:

Versus gold or silver, proof or

business strike?
MR. PAONESSA:

I prefer the business strikes

myself.
MR. URAM:

So like the current Liberty?

MR. PAONESSA:

Pardon me?

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MR. URAM:

Like the current Liberty gold

versus the 2009 high relief?
MR. PAONESSA:

Business strikes in the

latest, the proof on that ultra high relief, I don't
think it can be beat.

It's a great design, a great

piece that they made.
CHAIR LANNIN:

Okay.

there's another comment.

Thank you.

I think

Taylor, you have something

else?
MR. ELWOOD:

I just, with kind of the older

designs being redesigned into the newer coins I think
could really inspire kids who don't know the old
designs exist in the first place.
If they wouldn't have perhaps the resources
or just the foresight to go get an older piece they
can see the reincarnation of that design on a coin,
and really be inspired to not only collect the new
stuff but also go with the old.
CHAIR LANNIN:

All right, thank you.

If there's no further business to come
before the Committee I would like to suggest that we
adjourn.

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Any seconds?
PANEL:

Second.

CHAIR LANNIN:

All in favor?

(Vote.)
CHAIR LANNIN:

Good night.

(Whereupon the within proceedings adjourned
at 9:30 PM.)

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C E R T I F I C A T I O N
I, Martha Loomis, Certified Shorthand
Reporter, appointed to take the within proceedings
hereby certify that the proceedings was taken by me,
then reduced to typewritten form by means of computeraided transcription; that the foregoing is a true
transcript of the proceedings had subject to my
ability to hear and understand, and that I have no
interest in the proceedings.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my
hand.
____________________________
Martha Loomis
Certified Shorthand Reporter
Proofread by E. Williams

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