Full text of Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meetings, Recommendations, and Minutes : Meeting, June 26, 2012 : Transcript

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1
United States Mint
Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee
Meeting
Tuesday,
June 26, 2012
The Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee met in the
8th Floor Board Room, 801 9th Street, N.W.,
Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Gary Marks, Chair,
presiding.

2
Members Present:
Gary Marks, Chair
Michael Bugeja
Robert Hoge
Erik Jansen
Mike Moran
Michael Olson
Michael A. Ross
Donald Scarinci
Jeanne Stevens-Sollman
Heidi Wastweet
Also Present:
Christy Bidstrup
Don Everhart, Sculptor-Engraver
Andy Fishburn
Ron Harrigal, Acting Chief Engraver
Greg Weinman

3
Contents
Welcome and Call to Order

4

Discussion of Letter & Minutes From Previous
Meeting

4

Review and Discuss Candidate Designs for the Five
Star Generals Commemorative Coin Program
5
Review and Discuss Candidate Designs for The Code
Talkers Congressional Medal (Choctaw, Osage, and
Pawnee Nations & Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe) 61
Conclude Meeting

104

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Proceedings
(9:17 a.m.)
Welcome and Call to Order
Chair Marks: I'm calling this Tuesday, June 26th,
2012 meeting of the Citizens Coinage Advisory
Committee to order. I want to thank you all for
being here today, and apologize for the tardy start
this morning. We had more than our share of some
administrative stuff to get through in our
administrative meeting that preceded this meeting.
Discussion of Letter & Minutes From Previous
Meeting
So, today we have a good size agenda with a couple
of major programs to look at. The first item,
however, will be the discussion of the letter and the
minutes from the April 26, 2012 meeting. Is there
any discussion on either of those items?
(No response.)
Chair Marks: Hearing none, may I have a motion to
approve?
Participant: So moved.
Chair Marks: It's been moved. Is there a second?
Participant: Second.
Chair Marks: It's been moved and seconded to
approve the minutes and the letter of the July 26,
2012 meeting as presented. All those in favor
please indicate by saying aye.
(Chorus of ayes.)
Chair Marks: Opposed?
(No response.)

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Review and Discuss Candidate Designs for the Five
Star Generals Commemorative Coin Program
Chair Marks:
Motion carries unanimously. That
takes us right into our first program for the day and
that is the Five Star Generals Commemorative Coin
Program. It's a three-coin program and I will look to
Ron Harrigal, our Acting Chief Engraver, for our
program report.
Mr. Harrigal: Thank you, Gary. Okay. While this is
coming up, I'll go through some brief introduction
comments that we have here. Legislation Public Law
111-262, the Five Star General's Commemorative
Coin Act, requires the Secretary of the Treasury to
mint and issue coins in recognition of five United
States Army Five Star Generals: George Marshall,
Douglas MacArthur, Dwight Eisenhower, Henry
"Hap" Arnold, and Omar Bradley. And all five of the
men either taught or attended the United States
Army Command and General Staff College of Fort
Leavenworth, Kansas.
And we have a guest here, Colonel Ulin, from the
College, and I would like to invite him to say a few
words and then we'll
get started with the
presentation.
Chair Marks: Colonel.
Col. Ulin: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm Bob Ulin. I
run the Command and General Staff College
Foundation. There are staff colleges and war
colleges for all the services: Army, Navy, Air Force
and Marines. We represent the Army Command
General Staff College, so we're a private
organization. And what we provide is funding to
support the institution where government money
cannot be used, awards for excellence at, say,
graduation, studies for some of our members who
are doing research on their doctoral dissertations. I
sent a student to China, I sent a faculty member to
Vietnam. And those are the kinds of funds that we
use that can't be spent by the government.

6
This coin program is very important to us. First of
all, there are six other foundations that support staff
and war colleges, and we are the only one that has
been so honored by a program like this to recognize
five of America's Five Star Generals, the only Five
Star Generals to ever wear the rank of Five Stars.
When the act was passed granting them five stars,
it went back and retroactively promoted John J.
Pershing, a General of the Armies. And then
Congress
said,
well,
what
about
George
Washington? So, they went back and promoted him
to Five Star to make sure that nobody would ever
rank President Washington.
So, it's really kind of iconic that these Five Star
Generals, the one thing that they have in common
is that they all went to the Command and General
Staff College. Four of them graduated from West
Point. One of them, George C. Marshall, graduated
from Virginia Military Institute. But the common
educational bond that they have is the United States
Army Command and General Staff College.
Just a couple of points about the college. It is the
oldest, the largest, and the most prestigious military
staff college in the world. We've graduated over
90,000 students from the United States of all
services, Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines.
7,600 international officers have graduated from
158 countries. Of those international officers, 28
have become heads of government and heads of
state. In fact, there are four currently serving
international officers that are heads of government
and heads of state today: the Prime Minister of
Singapore, the President of Indonesia, the Emir of
Bahrain, and the Prime Minister of Rwanda,
Kagame.
So, we have a very distinguished faculty, a very
distinguished group of students, and the proceeds
that we derive from the sales of these coins will be
able to take the institution to the next level, provide
academic excellence for them, and we very much

7
appreciate your support.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Colonel.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. I'll go through some of the
basics on the legislation and the design program,
and then some of the rationale for how we establish
the themes, and who is on what coin.
The legislation -- as per the legislation, the portraits
of all five Five Star Generals are featured on the
coins. After much discussion, MacArthur was placed
on the gold, Marshall and Eisenhower on the Silver,
and Arnold and Bradley on the clad, for reasons that
will be discussed later during the presentation.
Just a note in the order of appointments. Marshall
was appointed on December 16th, 1942, MacArthur
on December 18th -- I'm sorry, 1944 that was.
MacArthur on December 18th of that same year,
1944. Eisenhower, December 20th of 1944. Arnold
was December 21st, 1944, and then a few years
later Bradley on September 22nd, 1950.
Required inscriptions are Liberty, In God We Trust,
United States of America, E Pluribus Unum, 2013,
and a designation of the face value of the coin.
And what we have here are -- for Douglas
MacArthur on the gold coin, we have six designs
that we'll be looking at. And I will show those now.
And, Gary, I need your guidance on whether you
want to go through the obverse and reverse, and
then we can go back and look at them as the
Committee deliberates, or however you want to do
that.
Chair Marks: Why don't we go through the entire
program right now, just have one go through and
then we'll just follow-up with any technical
questions, and we'll get into our committee review.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. So, here we have six designs for
Douglas MacArthur. This is the first design, second,
third design, fourth, fifth design, and finally the

8
sixth. And we see all six here in an array.
On the reverse designs, the gold reverse designs
are themed around the World War II Pacific Theater
of War. The theme was selected for the reverse
because of the reasons most of MacArthur's career
was spent in Asia, the Philippines prior to World War
II, in Japan and Korea afterwards. MacArthur was
the field marshal of the Philippine Army, and prior to
World War II the Supreme Commander Southwest
Pacific Area during the war.
He took the surrender of the Japanese ending World
War II in the Pacific, and later oversaw the
occupation of Japan from 1945 to 1951.
And I'm going to read through the artist inscriptions
-- or descriptions of the designs so that the
Committee has that basis when the comments are
heard.
Design one, this design depicts the landing at Leyte
in the Philippines with MacArthur and his soldiers
wading ashore. It was the fulfillment of MacArthur's
famous promise, "I shall return."
Design two, this design depicts a soldier storming a
tropical beach representative of the areas of the
Pacific and the Far East where American soldiers
fought during World War II. And prior to the CFA
review, this is the Foundation's preferred design.
Design number three is an enlarged version of
design number two.
Design number four, this design represents the
Medal of Honor given to MacArthur for his defense
of the Philippines.
Design number five, the bald eagle soars over the
American Armed Forces in the Pacific. The American
Bald Eagle in the design symbolizes MacArthur's
monumental achievements in shepherding the
American forces to victory.

9
Design number six, Navy carrier planes fly in
formation over the U.S. fleet in Tokyo during the
surrender ceremonies.
Design number seven, in this design three FM-2
Wildcats fly in formation over an unidentified Pacific
island group.
Design number eight, an F6F-3 Hellcat, Fighting
Squadron 16, VF 16 gets a takeoff flag on an
aircraft carrier during wartime operations in the
Pacific Ocean.
Design number nine, this design depicts a Grumman
F4F Wildcat as it takes off from the flight deck,
representative of much of the action in the Pacific.
Design number ten, this design depicts the four
Wildcats that survived the Japanese attack on Wake
Island. Also, these four Wildcats remained to defend
the Wake Islands after the attack.
So, here we have ten designs on the reverse for the
gold coin.
Okay, moving on to the silver --okay, we go back to
the obverse just to show those as a pairing. And
now we'll go onto the silver obverse designs.
Eight silver observe designs feature George Marshall
and Dwight Eisenhower. Marshall and Eisenhower
were the most celebrated generals of World War II
in Europe. Marshall's role as President Roosevelt's
military advisor is best known as the "Organizer of
Victory," and Eisenhower, the "Coalition Builder" of
the -- later the Supreme Commander of Allied
Forces in Europe.
Together they are the team that won the war
against Nazi Germany. Marshall went on to become
President Truman's envoy to China, then the 50th
Secretary of State, and later the third Secretary of
Defense. He was the only Army General to receive
the Nobel Peace Prize for his post-war work.

10
Eisenhower went on to become the 16th Army Chief
of Staff, the first Supreme Allied Commander of
Europe, and the 34th President of the United States
of America.
And of these designs, I'll show you -- we have six
designs here, number two shown here, side version
on number three, design four, design five, design
six which is the preference of the Foundation.
Ms. Wastweet: Ron, can you comment on how you
chose who to place in front of the other and the
choice of some having hats and some not?
Mr. Harrigal: That was left up to the artist, the
artist's discretion on that. And I know speaking with
Don on it, it is somewhat of a struggle with the
artist as to how best to represent it, but we left it
fully up to the artist.
And here we have design seven, design eight. So
we have eight designs here for the obverse of the
silver coin.
There was a bit of discussion with the CFA on that,
but there's really no resolution or any true rationale
as to why one would be placed in front of the other,
or one maybe a little higher than the other. It was
truly left up to the artist.
Okay, the silver reverse designs. Silver reverse
designs are themed around the World War II
European theater of war. Design number one, this
design depicts Nike, the Greek goddess who
personifies victory, holding a broken sword
representing the broken powers of the Axis, with
one foot upon the helmet of Mars, the Roman God
of War. The figures is positioned against the
backdrop of the European Continent, and is just
about to step out into the foreground, symbolizing
the successful end to the conflict in the European
theater of operation, due in large part to the
successful planning and execution of the Allied
Forces by Generals Dwight D. Eisenhower and
George C. Marshall.

11
Nike, the figure, is taken from the design of the
World War II Victory Medal by the United States
Military that was awarded to all members of the
Armed Forces who served in active duty during the
war.
Design number two, this design depicts the United
States Military World War II Victory Medal draped
over the top of the coin against the backdrop of the
European Continent. And, again, prior to the CFA
comments, this is the preferred design of the
Foundation.
Design number three, this design depicts Nike
holding aloft a horseshoe-shaped laurel wreath
which symbolizes martial victory in Ancient Greece.
She has one foot upon a helmet of Mars, and is
positioned against a backdrop of the European
Continent to symbolize the end of the conflict in the
European theater of operation. Inside the wreath is
the Five Star insignia symbolizing the successful
efforts of Generals Eisenhower and Marshall who
planned, executed, and commanded the Allied
Forces in defending the -- in defeating the Axis
powers.
Design number four, this design depicts the World
War II Victory Medal awarded to veterans serving
until the end of hostilities in Europe.
Design number five, this design depicts a group of
soldiers storming a beach in Europe, coming off the
drop ramp of a landing craft.
So, we have five reverses to review for the reverse
of the silver medal. Back to the obverses again, and
we'll move on to the clad.
Six clad obverse designs feature Henry "Hap" Arnold
and Omar Bradley. Arnold was the Chief of the
Army Air Corps, and Bradley was the most
celebrated Allied Ground Commander in Europe
during World War II. Arnold was made General of
the Air Force when that service was established by
the National Security Act of 1947. Bradley became

12
Army Chief of Staff in 1948, and in 1949 he was
appointed the first Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of
Staff.
This is design number one, design number two,
design number three, design number four, design
number five, and design number six, which is the
Foundation's preference. So, here we have the six
candidate obverse designs for the clad half dollar.
Okay, the reverse designs. The clad reverse designs
feature the U.S. Army Command and General Staff
College at Fort Leavenworth. As detailed in the
legislation authorizing the program, all of the Five
Star Generals taught or attended the college.
The U.S. Army Command and General Staff College
is the oldest and most celebrated military staff
college in the United States.
The college has
graduated over 90,000 officers, and over 7,500
international officers from 157 countries, of whom
28 have become heads of states or governments in
their respective countries.
Design number one, this design features the
Leavenworth Lamp, a symbol of the U.S. Army
Command and General Staff College at Fort
Leavenworth.
Design number two, this design features the
heraldic crest of Fort Leavenworth. The five stars
represent the Five Star Generals who have attended
or taught at the U.S. Army Command and General
Staff College located at Fort Leavenworth.
Design number three, this design features the
Leavenworth Lamp, the symbol of the U.S. Army
and Command General Staff College. The five stars
represent the Five Star Generals who have attended
or taught at the school. This is the Foundation's
preference.
Design number four is a variation of design number
three.

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Design number five, this design symbolizes the
Command and General Staff College. The soldier
represents vigilance and serves as a symbol of
power and sovereignty, courage, and freedom. The
lamp symbolizes study and learning, and acts as a
beacon to ward off enemies, while the three stars
on the shield represent the three branches of the
Army: the Army, the Army National Guard, and the
Army Reserves.
The helmet of the soldier is symbolic of the helmet
of the gentlemen or esquire, and the sword is
symbolic of military honor. The motto of the college
is basically on the banner here. It's Latin, which
translates into "Prepared in Peace and War." It's
intertwined with oak leaves to represent strength,
and olive leaves to represent peace.
Design number six, this design symbolizes the
Command and General Staff College. The eagle is
our national emblem, perched with wings extended.
The eagle represents vigilance and serves as a
symbol of power and sovereignty, courage, and
freedom. The lamp in the design symbolizes study
and learning, as well as a beacon to ward off
enemies, while the three spears represent the three
branches of the Army: the Army, the Army National
Guard, and the Army Reserves. The motto of the
college is intertwined with oak leaves to represent
strength, and olive leaves to represent peace.
Finally, the sword represents military honor.
And we have design seven here. The design
features the heraldic crest of Fort Leavenworth. So,
here we have our seven designs for the reverse of
the clad design. So, with that I'll turn it back over to
Gary for comments from the Committee.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Ron.
Mr. Moran: Ron, for -Chair Marks: Hold on a minute.
Mr. Moran: Okay.

14
Chair Marks: Thank you, Ron. Just so everyone in
the room understands our process, normally after
we get done with our report from the Staff on a
program, then we move into a phase where the
Committee asks questions of a technical nature.
That doesn't really go to whether we like a design or
not, but we want to have a complete understanding
of what's been prepared, and what maybe technical
aspects have come into play in producing the
design.
So, if we have any of those sorts of
questions, this would be the time. Michael.
Mr. Moran: You mentioned that you were going to
go into explanation of why the -- which general was
chosen for which obverse.
Mr. Harrigal: Yes.
Mr. Moran: And the other question I had for you is
that the theme clearly on the back of the half
dollars is emblematic of the legislation, but it's not
on the dollar and the five-dollar gold piece, and the
reasoning for that?
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. Well, we worked in consultation
with the College on the -- who is put on which of
the coins. And I don't have any more specifics other
than what I went through on my presentation. You
know, I can defer to Colonel Ulin to see if there's
any comments he'd want to make as to who is on
which of the coins.
Chair Marks: Colonel.
Col. Ulin: Thank you. Yes, we chose -- the kind of
unifying themes were World War II with forces
divided in the Pacific and European theater. The
second unifying theme was the Five Star cluster. We
wanted to see that on all four. And then the third
was the Command and General Staff College. Would
we like to see the Command and General Staff
College, that lamp on the back of all the coins, that
would be great? Didn't know that was even possible.
Mr. Moran: It is.

15
Col. Ulin: And what we thought about on the gold
coin is -- part of the rationale of the gold coin,
MacArthur kind of stands above the other Five
Stars. He's the only Five Star General ever awarded
the Medal of Honor, that's number one. And, two,
because of his long service, he was a General while
the rest of them were Lieutenant Colonels and
Colonels. He was the Chief of Staff in his 30's,
actually, so he kind of stood above.
And also thinking about in terms of sales, we're
focused on Asia for the sales of the gold coin, the
Philippines, Korea, and Japan. The Asians have an
affinity for gold, they like to buy gold. We think this
could be iconic there, and we've hired an
international marketing firm to try to get that coin
out into that area. Because of the cost of gold, of
course, it's not an easy sell here in the United
States.
We think the silver coin is going to be probably the
most popular. And of the five Five Star Generals, I
believe that MacArthur -- I'm sorry, Eisenhower and
Marshall are probably the most famous and the
most notable. We talked to the Eisenhower Library
in Abilene, Kansas.
We talked to the Marshall
Center in Lexington, Virginia. They're very
interested in this coin.
Two of the lesser known Five Stars -- I wouldn't say
that if their families were here -- would be Hap
Arnold and Omar Bradley. Very interesting, very
accomplished individuals, neither one of them really
have a museum or a library, or a big foundation.
Having the Command and General Staff College on
the back of that coin makes that coin more
marketable to the students that we have coming
through. We have over 15 -- well, actually, cycling
through the college every year we have about 2,000
students that come through the college every year
for their one year of graduate-level studies. So we
think that coin will be very popular, and the price
point on the half dollar coin is good. So, that's sort
of the rationale and the way we thought about the

16
mix. Does that answer your question?
Chair Marks: Yes, thank you. That's very helpful.
Thank you. Are there other technical questions?
Okay, hearing none, then at this point we'll shift
into our review phase. And during that phase, each
member is given an opportunity to provide some
feedback on the designs as they see them, to
express their support and/or -- what's the word, I
don't want to say opposition but -Participant: Non-support.
Chair Marks: Non-support of certain designs as it
may be. And today I'm going to start off that
process. And I wanted to -- pardon?
Ms. Wastweet: Could we hear one more time the
preferences?
Chair Marks: Oh, yes, sure.
Ms. Wastweet: And are the -- did CFA see this yet?
Mr. Harrigal: They have, and I don't have those with
me as far as the CFA information. I do have the
College's -Ms. Wastweet: Yes, could you read that to us one
more time.
Mr. Harrigal: -- foundation. Yes, hold on a second.
I'm
having
technical
difficulties
with
my
presentation here.
Chair Marks: Thank you.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. So, I have -- I don't have it in a
table but I have it in my notes here. So, as far as
the gold obverse design, the design choice of the
College was number four, and the CFA was number
two. As far as the reverse goes, it was design
number two for the College, and the CFA also
agreed with that, number two, but they did have
some comments on some edits, minor edits.

17
Ms. Wastweet: Can you say what those are?
Mr. Harrigal: Let me bring them up here, see if I
can remember what they were, because I was doing
the presentation and not writing them down. I
believe it was balancing the inscriptions and writing
out the word "Five Dollars" instead of putting a
symbol up here. They said that the five dollar
symbol looked out of place in this, so they wanted
Five Dollar in place of where E Pluribus Unum was
and E Pluribus Unum moved to about the two
o'clock position to balance the inscriptions. So, that
was their comments on -- so, basically, the artist
would have to alter the artwork a bit there to make
accommodations for it.
Dr. Bugeja: You'd have to have a margin in order to
do that.
Mr. Harrigal: Would either have to put a border on it
to frame it, or work it with the very lower leaf of the
flora that's behind it. I apologize, my computer
keeps on locking up here, and now it wants to send
some information to Microsoft, so I apologize.
So, I'll go through more of the recommendations
while we're waiting for the computer to come back
here.
Chair Marks: While we do that, I wanted to go
through an exercise that we're familiar with, and we
have many designs to look at for our particular
program. We've got actually 42 faces presented
here between the six coins, so what I'd like to do is
our familiar process where we will, for lack of a
better term, weed out those that there's no one on
the Committee that wishes to consider a design,
any particular design, that we would lay that design
aside and get down to a core group designs that we
all feel that we'd like to look at further. So, the only
requirement there is that at least one member
wants to consider a design and then we'll keep it in
the mix.
Mr. Harrigal: Gary, let me go through the rest of the

18
preferences before you go through the culling out
process, if that's acceptable.
Chair Marks: All right.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. On silver, silver design, the
Foundation liked preference number six, and the
CFA was number eight. The reverse design, the
Foundation liked number two, and the CFA liked
number four. They did talk about some edits here,
but I'm not sure I have all that.
I think they wanted -- they made comments about
they didn't like the way the artwork overlapped the
inscription, so they wanted us to downsize the
artwork a bit so that the inscriptions weren't
overlapped. It was a common theme they had
through all of the designs.
As you know, we've been doing that a little more
and more progressively here to add a little bit of a
3D effect of the coins, but they're thinking more in
traditional fashion. And there were comments made
on that design as being more of Augustus SaintGaudens type of look to the design.
Chair Marks: You're speaking of the reverse?
Mr. Harrigal: Reverse number four.
Chair Marks: Yes, okay.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. On the obverse for the clad, the
Foundation liked design number six, and the CFA
liked six as well, no comments. And as far as the
reverse, the Foundation liked design number three,
and the CFA liked design number seven.
Chair Marks: All right. Thank you, Ron. Okay, to our
culling out, as I hold up each of these, I just look for
an indication that at least one member wishes to
consider that particular design. So, starting with the
gold coin obverses, number one. Any consideration
for number one? Hearing none, we go to number
two.

19
(Chorus of yeses.)
Chair Marks: Number three?
(Chorus of yeses.)
Chair Marks: Number four?
Ms. Wastweet: Yes.
Chair Marks: Number five?
(Chorus of yeses.)
Chair Marks: Number six?
(Chorus of yeses.)
Chair Marks: Going to the reverses, gold number
one?
Participant: Yes.
Chair Marks: Yes?
Participant: Yes.
Chair Marks: Number two?
Participant: Yes.
Chair Marks: Not hearing anything for two.
Participant: Oh, yes.
Chair Marks: Yes? Oh, I'm sorry. Number three?
Hearing none for three. Number four.
(Chorus of yeses.)
Chair Marks: Five? Five? Six?
Participant: Yes.
Chair Marks: Seven? Nothing on seven. Eight. No
one on eight. Nine? No one on nine. Ten? None
on ten. Okay, we'll move to the silver obverses,
silver number one? No. Silver number two? Silver

20
number three? None there. Silver number four?
Participant: Yes.
Chair Marks: Silver number five?
Participant: Yes.
Chair Marks: Six, I believe that's the College choice.
(Chorus of yeses.)
Chair Marks: Seven? No one on seven. Eight?
Participant: Yes.
Chair Marks: Yes on eight. Let's move to the Silver
reverses, reverse number one?
Participant: Yes.
Chair Marks: Two?
(Chorus of yeses.)
Chair Marks: Three? Hearing none on there. Four?
Participant: Yes.
Chair Marks: Five? No one on five. Going to the
clad 50 cent, half-dollar coin, obverses, number
one?
Participant: Yes.
Chair Marks: Obverse two?
Obverse three?

No one on two.

Participant: Yes.
Chair Marks: Obverse four? Hearing none on four.
Number five? Hearing no one on five. Number six?
(Chorus of yeses.)
Chair Marks: Going to the clad reverse, reverse
one?

21
(Chorus of yeses.)
Chair Marks: Two?
Participant: Yes.
Chair Marks: Three?
(Chorus of yeses.)
Chair Marks: Four?
(Chorus of yeses.)
Chair Marks: Five? Yes. Six? Yes. Seven?
(Chorus of yeses.)
Chair Marks: Okay. Thank you for that. So, that
narrows down to some extent our consideration
going forward from this point. I'm going to start off
the remarks, and then at the request of Michael
Olson, I'll be recognizing him next.
And as far as my comments are concerned, I passed
out to each Committee member at the beginning or
before the meeting a copy of the statute that was
passed by Congress and signed by the President
into law.
And I wanted to focus on this, and
hopefully center our discussion today on the actual
legislation, and what that says, and the spirit of that
legislation. And, particularly, what the legislation
indicates is the theme of this program and what is
to be honored.
So, first, I'm not going to read the whole thing, so
don't worry about that, but I want to look first at
the title here, which appears the paragraph right
after the words "enact" on the first page. And it
says this, it says, "To require the Secretary of the
Treasury to mint coins in recognition of five United
States Army Five Star Generals: George Marshall,
Douglas MacArthur, Dwight Eisenhower, Henry
"Hap" Arnold, and Omar Bradley, alumni of the
United States Army Command and General Staff
College, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, to coincide with

22
the celebration of the 132nd anniversary of the
founding of the United States Command and
General Staff College.
So, the message there, to me, speaks pretty clearly
that this is about honoring five Five Star Generals
who all are alumni of the Command College, and all
of this to coincide with the celebration of the 132nd
anniversary of the founding of the college.
Now, if we look at the findings that Congress
included in the bill, the first 11 are general findings.
And if you look at them, and I won't read them all
or read any of them, actually, but if you look at the
first 11, every one speaks about the College. It's all
centered around the College.
And then the
remaining five findings focus on each of the
generals, and in each of those descriptions or
findings about each of these generals, particularly
the last paragraph in each of those, has an
indication about that individual's relationship with
the College.
And then if we move to Section 3, Paragraph A,
denominations, it says this. It says, "In recognition
and celebration of the Five Star Generals'
attendance and graduation from the Command and
General Staff College, and notwithstanding any
other provision of law, the Secretary of the Treasury
shall mint and issue the following coins," and it
delineates the three denominations. So, we're told
here that this is in recognition of the Generals'
attendance and graduation from the Command and
General Staff College.
Now, I go through this exercise because I feel that if
the designs we are presented, particularly for the
reverses of the gold coin and the silver coin, really
are not in the spirit of what this legislation is about.
And I want to ask the Committee today to look at
some of the very excellent designs we are given for
the half dollar, which are all emblematic of the
College. And I would ask that we would pick the
reverse designs from that selection.

23
Now, you're free to go contrary to what I'm saying
here, but I hope I've illustrated that really the
purpose of this program is the Generals because
they were all alumni of this College.
Yes, Donald?
Mr. Scarinci: How about a motion to reject all
designs, and let's try this again.
Chair Marks: A motion to reject all designs. Well,
I'm not prepared for that myself. You could make
that motion and see if you get a second, and if you
get a second then I'll take the question and we'll go
from there. But that's your right as a Committee
member.
Mr. Scarinci: Well, you're looking -- you're taking
the position -- you know, you think the others -you think all but the silver dollar designs don't
comport with the CChair Marks: No, what I'm saying is that the
reverses of the five dollar gold and the silver dollar
were given -- we were given the Pacific theater and
the European theaters.
I don't really see that
showing up here.
Now, those are themes
associated with the generals, granted, but we're not
asked to observe those associations of the general.
We're asked to commemorate the associations
these generals had with the College.
Mr. Olson: Well, in 1995 there was a whole series of
three coins that did commemorate World War II.
And, as can be seen from our voting, I think every
one of these designs for the reverse of the clad,
somebody wanted to talk about. So, there is good
artwork here to consider, and rejecting all the
designs is not acceptable.
Chair Marks: And, you know, I'll ask the Colonel to
expand if he wishes, but I did hear him indicate that
he was unaware, but would be very supportive of
the idea, if all three coins gave commemoration to
the college.

24
Col. Ulin: Hear, hear.
Chair Marks: Okay. So, the sponsor or the group
that's benefitting from this program supports this
idea that I'm forwarding to you. So, Donald, what
I'm saying is -Mr. Scarinci: No, no, no, that's okay.
I
misunderstood. I thought you said that the other
things don't comport, in which case we can reject
the designs. I'd prefer not to reject the designs
because then I will have to come back here and look
at these bad designs again.
Chair Marks: I would like to act today on this
program and keep the process going.
Mr. Scarinci: Yes.
Chair Marks: I have no issue, by the way, with the
obverses and the selection of who would be
commemorated on which coin face. I think that's a
can of worms no matter how you open it. I think
the Colonel expounded with some logic about how it
was separated out, so I'm not going to go there. I'm
just concerned about what the reverses show.
Yes?
Dr. Bugeja: I'd like to further your argument, which
I agree with totally from a numismatic perspective.
When you take Dwight Eisenhower, for instance,
there's a whole series of circulating coinage about
Dwight Eisenhower.
There is a commemorative
about Dwight Eisenhower.
There are numerous
World War II commemoratives.
I think the reverse clearly has to show the college.
And if we can get a common reverse, or at most
two reverses, one for the silver and one for the half
dollar, it would solidify what this is really about.
But from a numismatic perspective, there's good
reason to go in the direction that you're going.
Chair Marks: Let me make a point here first, just

25
launching off of what Michael just said. I see two
ways we could proceed here. One is an idea of a
common reverse, which would be, I think, correct
me if I'm wrong, but I think that would be unique as
far as a commemorative program that has a gold,
silver, and half dollar. I don't know we've ever -maybe we -- something for the Olympics, I think
had common reverses.
But outside of Olympic
coins, I'm not sure we've ever produced a
commemorative program with a common reverse.
That would be one approach.
The other approach would be to take this
opportunity to show some symbolization that's
different on each of the reverses that all relate to
the college in some way. We could, for example,
we could do one with the lamp on it. We could do
one with the crest on it, and then we could do one,
which is my favorite, would be the eagle.
Why that eagle? Because the eagle is especially
iconic in American symbolism. The eagle is the icon
of freedom. I don't know if a lot of people know
that. That's why it's on the reverse of many of our
coins. It stands for freedom. The fact that the eagle
we're presented with is wearing a shield, to me
symbolizes the act of defense, which relates to the
College and training individuals for defending our
nation. So, that's one approach we could take, is
three different aspects all related to the College, but
not necessarily a common reverse.
Jeanne?
Ms. Stevens-Sollman: That's exactly what I wanted
to suggestion, that we go with three from this
group, which I think we could choose from. I think it
would solidify the College and give the Foundation
what they think is important. And I think we have a
choice here with some very good designs.
The only question I have is, in the description it was
mentioned that we had olive leaves and oak leaves.
Participant: Yes, I didn't see any either.

26
Ms. Stevens-Sollman: I'm trying to look for the oak
leaves, and maybe the lamp could be a little bigger
with that eagle. I think that to choose from this
group would be a wise choice.
Chair Marks: Okay. Now, Michael, I want to get
back to my comments here, but go ahead, Michael.
Mr. Olson: This should be looked at as a set of
coins. And I don't think what the Mint presented, as
it was presented for obverse and reverse, looked
like any set of coins.
Ms. Stevens-Sollman: Right.
Mr. Olson: Using these as our only consideration
for reverses would solidify this as a set of coins,
which I hope the Mint does sell in a three and sixcoin set. I feel very strongly that these should be
the only considerations for the reverse.
Chair Marks: Okay. You know, with that, I'm going
to ask for a motion.
Mr. Olson: So moved.
Dr. Bugeja: Second.
Chair Marks: Okay, it's been moved by Mr. Olson -Mr. Moran: Can I ask on what you moved?
Mr. Jansen: Gary, can I get a comment?
Chair Marks: Hold on. Comment? It's been moved
and seconded. Discussion?
Mr. Olson: That these -- that the reverse of the clad
be the only ones considered for the entire series.
Mr. Scarinci: Oh, not selecting one as a common
reverse.
Chair Marks: No, at this point the motion is more
general than that. You could take it another step
after this, I suppose.

27
Mr. Scarinci: Okay.
Chair Marks: What we're saying is that the designs
presented to us for the clad reverse are those that
we are going to somehow decide among for the
three coins in the program.
Heidi?
Ms. Wastweet: I'm opposed to that for the reason
that we have some preferences already stated by
the stakeholder and by CFA, and I think we should
discuss those preferences. And if we go with this
motion, then that takes that discussion off the table.
And the second reason is that it was stated by our
guest that the thing that set MacArthur apart was
that he won the Medal of Honor.
Mr. Jansen: Bingo.
Ms. Wastweet: And I would like to discuss that, as
well. So, if we go with this motion it limits our
discussion, so for that reason I'm against the
motion.
Chair Marks: Okay. I would comment back, Heidi,
that -- and, again, the Colonel can correct me, but
with his understanding now that we can
commemorate the College on all reverses, I'm not - I don't know if your prior ideas about reverses
would stand. Would they?
Col. Ulin: The one unifying theme for all of them is
Command and General Staff College. And if it were
possible to put some representation of the
Command and General Staff College on the obverse
of each one of the coins, that would be preferable.
Chair Marks: On the reverse.
Col. Ulin: On the reverse. I didn't know that was an
option.
Chair Marks: Okay. I have a suggestion. If it's okay
with the maker of the motion and the second, that
we consider the reverse designs for the clad along

28
with those recommended by the CFA and the
College. Would that satisfy the concern? Heidi, that
sounds like that would satisfy your concern?
Ms. Wastweet: I'm not opposed to that.
Chair Marks: Okay. Is that okay with -Participant: I think Erik's got something to add.
Chair Marks: Oh, Erik?
Mr. Jansen: Three things. I think the situation we're
discussing right now is yet another reason to
please, and this is a message to the Mint, please
circulate the instructions given to the artists sooner,
and potentially even take that as a formal process.
And I'm going to put it out there, two meetings
before we're going to see the art, we see the
instructions so that we can correct a situation like
this, or otherwise which throws us into the ditch like
this.
Chair Marks: On that comment I'll just add that a
year and a half ago this Committee issued its
blueprint on coin design that had a set of
recommendations for improving design on American
coinage. Among those recommendations was a
recommendation that the Committee become
involved earlier; initially, in fact, when themes and
concepts were first being developed for any
particular program, and this does serve, Erik, as an
example of where -Mr. Jansen: Yes, so I second the motion from a year
and a half ago.
Chair Marks: -- this would be helpful. And I do
have some indication from the Mint staff that we will
be moving in that direction soon. But our day to day
would be much easier had that happened -Mr. Jansen: As would our work the last two
meetings going through blah, blah, blah.
Chair Marks: True. True.

29
Mr. Jansen: Okay. My comments relative to the
selection process in front of us are really directed to
the decision on the reverse of the gold. I had
singled out, as the crowd did here, to save design
number four, which is neither the choice of the
Foundation or the CFA. However, it does carry
Heidi's comment on the Medal of Valor.
Now, unfortunately, on that reverse is has become a
tribute to MacArthur with the "I shall return," in the
right-hand field. So, I was looking -- unfortunately,
Leavenworth would look really rude hyphenated,
and it doesn't fit in that space. So, the option I
would put on the table is for the creative minds to
prevail and come up with another way of using
design number four, which is one of only four
designs on this nine design page that are still in the
hunt.
Dr. Bugeja: Point of order. Can we either amend the
-Chair Marks: Yes.
Dr. Bugeja: -- statement. There's been a motion
and it's been seconded, and you either need to
amend the motion -Chair Marks: I know.
Mr. Jansen: Well, my comment will lead to that
amendment so as -Chair Marks: The Committee kind of directed me to
Erik, and I was trying to move towards that motion,
but I'd like to hear out Erik, and then we're going to
move on.
Mr. Jansen: So, the point I want to make is I don't
want to stipulate that we lock in the seven designs
on the reverse of the clad as the only candidates. I
would like to leave it open for a creative, I don't
want to say recycling, but let's look at it that way, a
creative entertaining of options that might already
be on the table for reverse.

30
Chair Marks: Okay.
Mr. Jansen: I don't think a battleship is appropriate
for the school, but I think a medal might because it
attributes that character of leadership to a school.
Chair Marks: Okay. Erik, I hear you. I think that's
addressed with the change that I put on the table to
the motion. If the sponsor and the seconder -Mr. Jansen: No, I disagree. It's not. Number four, in
particular, on the reverse is not amongst either the
Foundation or the CFA's choice.
Chair Marks: Well, Heidi mentioned it in that one.
I'm sorry if I didn't express it, but that was -- I was
trying to accommodate Heidi's comments.
Mr. Jansen: It doesn't.
Chair Marks: Well, no, I'm telling you -- I apologize
if I didn't communicate that well. That was my
intent in describing the change I would like the
sponsor and the second of the motion to make. So,
with that understanding we would look at reverse
number four. Does that work?
Mr. Jansen: That would be great. Thank you.
Chair Marks: The other thing we can do is drop this
motion. This looks like it's becoming problematic,
and that was not my intent.
Ms. Wastweet: I'm in favor of your amended
motion.
Chair Marks: Okay. Are we unified on that? I guess
we'll find out on the vote, but I'm seeing like two
commentors here.
(Simultaneous speaking.)
Mr. Olson: Let's take a vote and see what happens.
Chair Marks: Okay, I'll restate the motion as best I
can. The motion is to consider the -- how many are

31
there on the clad? The seven reverse designs
presented for the clad half dollar all emblematic of
the college along with the reverse designs
recommended by the CFA and the sponsor
organization for the reverses of the gold and silver
coins, along with gold reverse number four.
Mr. Olson: That is not fundamental to what we were
talking about as far as a set of coins. So, I guess
what I'm saying is let's take my motion, see how it
comes out, and if necessary we can -Chair Marks: Just the clad reverses?
Dr. Bugeja: We're not accepting it as a friendly
amendment. I'm not accepting it. Are you accepting
it?
Chair Marks: Well, but you're not the maker, he is,
and he's saying -Mr. Olson: And I'm not accepting.
Chair Marks: You're holding to your motion.
Mr. Olson: Let's see if there's support for it. If
there's not, we can amend it.
Chair Marks: All right. Okay. I'm going to call the
question on -Mr. Moran: Let's restate the -- what's on the floor
so we all know what we're talking -Chair Marks: Okay. What's on the floor is to go
forward with this discussion considering only the
seven reverse designs presented for the clad, and
we would make a determination subsequent to this
motion if it were approved on how or which of those
seven designs would be matched up with the three
denominations we're looking at.
Mr. Moran: That's correct.
Chair Marks: Is everyone clear?

32
Mr. Olson: With the theme being it's a set of coins,
not -Chair Marks: Set of coins honoring the college.
Mr. Olson: Right.
Chair Marks: And the fact that these five men come
from the college. Okay?
Mr. Olson: And recognizing that there's good
artwork in other designs, but they do not follow the
theme of what I think at least I would like to see
conveyed -Chair Marks: Okay. Not discussion. All those in favor
of the motion please raise your hand. One, two,
three, four, five, six, seven. All those opposed?
Three. The count is 7-3, the motion carries. So, at
this point we'll be looking at the seven reverse
designs for the clad, and we'll be matching those up
with the three denominations.
Okay. Now I want to get back to my comments, and
I want to talk just a little bit about the obverses. As
I look at -- I mean, there's some great art here for
each of the three denominations. What I would like
to see happen, and I don't think I'm going to cull
out particular designs here. I want to put this on the
table and just see where it goes with the rest of you
in your comments, but it seems to me that we're
honoring military men, so my conception of that is
that honoring military men should be an exercise in
choosing designs where the individuals look like
military men. And I think we accomplish that
particularly when we are looking at men who are in
uniform, and men who are maybe even wearing
hats. I think that strongly conveys that idea, so I
would encourage us to look at images where they're
clearly in the garb of the military in all three
examples.
And then as for the reverse, I'd like to see us pick
one, a lamp. I would love to go with the eagle.
Why? Because I expressed some of that, but also it

33
is a nod towards -- I mean, the way the eagle is
rendered is a little more modern than what we've
seen before in the way of eagles. I'd like to allow
that creativity to come through, and then the crest,
because it's germane to the subject matter. So,
those are my comments. I'm not going to get down
to specific designs and say which I like and which I
don't. I'm going to determine that more thoroughly
as we go through and I hear your comments. So, at
this point I will recognize Michael Olson. And then I
think what we'll do is we'll just move around
clockwise around the table.
Mr. Olson: Okay, thank you, Gary. It's quite an
honor to be looking at these designs. I am also a
graduate of the Command and General Staff
College, and seven or eight years ago when I went
through that college I never thought I'd be sitting
here looking at designs that would honor the
college, so it's quite an honor. And we do have
some good artwork to take a look at here.
I just want to talk about some things that I think
are important for the entire set. Echo Gary's
comments that these are military men, and they -to the extent that we can make them -- portray
them as military men, I believe that's important. I
think certainly the uniform is important. I was quite
surprised to see three of these designs on the
Eisenhower and Marshall coin. They look like
campaign buttons. You couldn't tell they were even
in the military.
The names should be on here, and I think they all
are uniform. Also, I think it's important for equal
presentation not having one general behind another
just to show them on equal footing. I know there's a
couple of designs here that are somewhat desirable,
but they do show one general behind the other. And
I'm not sure if that would be their preference or not
if they could speak for themselves.
There's also a very nice touch that I see in quite a
few of these designs where we've got the Five-Star

34
rank portrayed as the Five-Star rank. Other designs
have five stars on it in a line, in a semicircle. I think
that would be a nice timed theme to have that
portrayed as rank on the obverse of each one.
As I had stated before, this is truly going to be a set
of coins, and as such I would encourage the Mint to
sell a three-coin set, and also possibly a six-coin
set, so interested parties could have a presentation
case with either all three or all six of the designs.
On the reverses, there's a lot of my notes here that
aren't going to apply now. But, again, I like Gary's
suggestion that we do possibly the lamp, a crest,
and also the eagle design is quite a nice design as
far as looking modern, very aggressively looking
eagle there.
My suggestion would be on the reverse designs to
do possibly the lamp or the crest on the five-dollar
coin, as that's the smallest, and those are the
simplest designs. And possibly the eagle on the
silver dollar as there's a lot of real estate there, and
you could really make that look nice. On the half
dollar, again, either the crest of the lamp, and I'll
get into those designs here in a little bit.
Now, as far as the obverses go for the five dollar
gold, I believe we were looking at two, three, four,
five, and six. My preference would be, I've got three
of them that I really prefer there. I guess I would
defer to the Mint on the subject of the sunglasses.
Certainly, just about every picture you see of
MacArthur that's widely known, he is wearing the
sunglasses, but I guess I would ask Don, could
those be portrayed in such a way that it would not
institute a flat surface? What I'm looking at is
number three. There's a lot of flatness there.
Mr. Everhart: You know, it's a very iconic symbol
with MacArthur is probably wearing sunglasses on
all these, but I think we could use texture in places
to try to make it so it's not just one big smooth,
looking like an insect or something like that.

35
Mr. Olson: Right. So, with that being the case, I
guess my preference for the obverse for MacArthur
would either be number three or number five. Both
of them would be perfectly fine, in my opinion.
As far as the Eisenhower, Marshall obverse, let's
see, we were looking at only four, five, and six. I'm
a little conflicted here because I really like number
four. It shows both generals on an equal footing
facing the center, which when we get to the half
dollar observe I guess I'd like to see the same
convention there. Facing outward seems somewhat
awkward on the obverse for the half dollar. And if
there was any way we could make these look
somewhat the same, that would be my preference.
I really like number four for the observe on the
dollar. I know there is some support for number six,
as well, from the Foundation, I believe. I do
question on Eisenhower's uniform the U.S. looks like
it's fairly far down on hits the belt. Is that a correct
placement for that?
Mr. Everhart: On number six?
Mr. Olson: On number six. That's not -Col. Ulin: Our history department looked at that and
they had no objection.
Mr. Olson: Okay. Okay.
Col. Ulin: And, by the way, the United States Army
Trademark and Patent Office also looked at the -- I
don't know if they looked at the design.
They looked at the designs, but they've also given
permission to use all the military symbology, so
that's been approved by the Army. I mean, you
really can't use the Five-Star rank or the Half
Radford thing without their permission, so that's all
been done.
Mr. Olson: Okay. So, with that said, I guess number
four and number six would be the two that I would

36
support for the dollar coin. I really would like to see
head gear if six was chosen. I don't know if that's
possible. That won't prevent me from providing
some points to number six. But if you take a look at
Eisenhower in number four with his cap on there
and the five stars on it, I really think that's the way
I picture him. That's the way I've seen him in
footage of the day, in pictures.
Ms. Wastweet: I'm sorry, which one?
Mr. Olson: Number four. The hat really adds a lot to
that portrayal of Eisenhower. I do like the stripes in
the background of number six, however. And the
convention of the Five-Star rank in both is very
desirable.
(Off the record comments.)
Mr. Olson: All right. Moving on to the obverse of the
half dollar. It looks like we've got one, six, and
three that we're taking a look at for consideration.
This one is a little tougher.
I really prefer number one. I'd like to see head gear
on number one. Number three they're a little -- the
portrayal is a little bit smaller; however, they do
have more of a uniform as well as the head fear.
On number six, other than the name you really can't
tell those gentlemen are in the military. They're
wearing a suit coat. You can't really tell much about
them. So, there's really no obverse that I could
strongly support for this design, but if -- I'll
probably be putting some votes towards number
one, number three, most likely none towards
number six. I'll wait to hear comments from the rest
of the Committee.
Just in general on the reverses, the preference for
the lamp depiction for myself would be number one.
The eagle, as I had stated, number six is a very nice
design and that should be used as is, but on the
crest the number two states "Fort Leavenworth,"
and it's got the five stars above it which is nice.

37
Number seven is a little cleaner, still depicting the
crest but it doesn't say Fort Leavenworth. And I feel
pretty strongly that at least one of these coins
should state Fort Leavenworth on the reverse. So,
either two or seven could work, maybe with a little
shifting around but I really feel very strongly that
Leavenworth should be on the reverse of this coin.
That concludes my comments at this point.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. Jeanne.
Ms. Stevens-Sollman: I have to agree with Michael
on just about everything. And I'd like to go first
backwards with the reverse. I wish that we had
been given a little bit more preparation for this. No,
I'm not that familiar with the symbolism of the
military, so as a general observer it's important for
me to see what's important to the Foundation, and
to honor our generals, which I think most of these
designs do. So, for that reason I do agree with
Michael on one, two, and six in terms of the reverse
so that the lamp has more explanation to the
public; the person that might not really know what
the lamp means, and then to have this information
would allow them a little bit more knowledge. And I
think it is important to have Fort Leavenworth on
one of these reverses.
The only thing that I would add to number six,
which is quite a beautiful design is the fact that we
don't have the promised oak leaves, and maybe
that could be inserted somewhere. Okay.
As far as the obverse goes, I do think we need to
have some sort of military dress. I personally think
it's important. In terms of the design, I think we
have to look at -- I wish number six had Douglas
MacArthur in scripted more in a circle. I think that's
quite a nice piece representing him. The rest I can't
really feel comfortable to discuss.
And when we're looking at the Eisenhower, Marshall
piece, again -Ms. Wastweet: Can I clarify?

38
Ms. Stevens-Sollman: Yes.
Ms. Wastweet: You were talking about number six?
Ms. Stevens-Sollman: Yes. I would just like to
adjust that foot where his -- where we have that
line. I'd like to see his name encircled somehow.
But I like the fact that we have the stars, his
signature emblem there.
And in terms of the Eisenhower, Marshall piece I
think we need -- I prefer four and five, either one.
And to look at Arnold and Bradley,
I believe
number three probably has for me the most
potential. However, this is so important. I wish so
much the artist had blended the lower part of the
figures together, and not just cut them off in these
kind of haphazard circles. I'm not quite sure what
the purpose of that was, but if their blending would
have been more like number, I think that for me
number three would be my preference. And other
than that, I have nothing more to say.
Chair Marks: Okay, thank you. Michael.
Dr. Bugeja: I'm going to start with the reverse. And
my strong preference is for number one; however, if
you take a look at the Chevron which is in the
middle of the lamp, it contains -- already contains
the Latinate phrase "Prepared in Peace and War."
And in that ribbon I would place Leavenworth, as
Michael Olson has suggested it should be on the
reverse. Certainly, we don't need to repeat the
inscription "Prepared in Peace and War in Latinate
and to give it that kind of a presence. But, however,
Fort Leavenworth would actually be my preference
there.
Chair Marks: Michael, are you in reference to a
particular reverse for a particular coin, gold, silver,
or clad?
Dr. Bugeja: I would prefer this one for the silver,
actually.

39
Chair Marks: Okay.
Dr. Bugeja: The reason why is I think it would be
very popular and it would sell very well. You know, I
like clean designs. Number seven also has all the
specifics in it.
I do like the eagle very much. I have an issue again
with Fort Leavenworth not being there, but also if
you take a look at the sword, the sword should be in
white relief, and it is -- that would actually give
some contrast in that bottom part. It's missing
contrast. And I would also take the lamp and lighten
it up to give some contrast from the feathers, the
ribbon and so forth.
I'd also play with -- everything looks like wood, and
you have metal and wood and ribbon, and they
should be given different textures, as just a
technical thing that can be done.
I'll be very brief on the obverses. If we can go to
the MacArthur obverse, my favorite two has all the
ingredients that we look for, the placement and
design is number two and number five. Those I
think are very clean designs. I'm good with any one
of them.
I might point out, however, that if we go with the
five stars in a circle which I think is the appropriate
formation, it might be confusing if we pick reverse
number two with a different five stars because then
they would be repeated on the obverse and the
reverse. So, we have to be a little bit careful there.
I don't want to take too much time. We have a full
contingent of CCAC members here, and we want to
hear their perspectives. When we go to the next set
of obverses with Dwight Eisenhower and George C.
Marshall, my favorites without repeating what has
already been said are numbers four and six. I
actually prefer six. I know we need military garb,
but there are medals I believe on Marshall's -under the lapel. There's -- I can -- I would like
hats, but if it's not doable that's still okay with me.

40
And then when we go to the clad obverses, my
preferences are for one and three. I agree with
Jeanne on number three. And, actually, if you could
just see if there's a neat way to put a line right from
that shoulder to the other shoulder and then you
don't get the disembodied heads. But I think I'm
going to stop right there here. Thank you very
much.
Chair Marks: Okay. Mike Ross.
Mr. Ross: On the MacArthur coin, there are certain
generals in American history who went out of their
way to project an image, Custer, Jeb Stuart, Patton,
and MacArthur certainly one of them. I'm sorry we
didn't get a design that also included his pipe. But I
think if you're going to represent MacArthur as he
often tried to represent himself, I think the
sunglasses are key to that story, so any of the
designs with the sunglasses. But I like five, in
particular, because I recall images of MacArthur
looking in that direction in certain photographs.
And then on the Eisenhower coins, I think the
military hats are probably appropriate given that
Eisenhower had a civilian career in which he was
often paired with another head, Richard Nixon, in
political presentation. You often see Eisenhower's
head next to Nixon's, and this would clearly signal
that these coins were representing the military
portion other than the political portion of
Eisenhower's career. So, I like four and five for that
reason.
Chair Marks: Okay, Robert.
Mr. Hoge: I have to agree with much of what has
been said already by my colleagues here, but I'd
like to step back just a bit and look at these things
maybe from outer space. I have a question as to
why it wasn't maybe a possibility to include all five
portraits on one piece because it seems like we've
sort of missed an opportunity with the five stars and
the five Five-Star Generals. Was there some reason
why this could not be done or was not considered? I

41
don't know.
Chair Marks: Well, we weren't part of that
discussion so I think I'll turn to the staff. I don't
know -- Ron, would you -Mr. Harrigal: We looked at it. We had three coins
and five generals that the law requires us to put the
portraits on. It's just a matter of real estate and
how much room is available on the coin. And we
looked at it from the beginning as how do you put
five people on there coins, so the discussion
gravitated towards who do you pair up. And that
was basically our discussions with the college in
that, and it just basically developed that way. There
was never a discussion about five on a coin.
Mr. Hoge: It seems a little odd to me that we've
tried to include so much here, though, because, for
instance, we have the names. There's really no
consistency among them. Why don't we just have
the surname of each individual? If they're famous
enough that should be sufficient I would think. We
have Arnold's nickname, some people have their
initials and some do not. Just sort of an oddity
about these things, so they don't really seem to
work well as a set or a series in the format that
we're regarding here today.
Mr. Harrigal: Well, just in response to that is based
on where we go with this program if that's a motion
that the Committee would like to make after the
fact to make them more of a series. Obviously, the
Committee is free to do that.
Mr. Hoge: Okay. In looking at the pictures
individually, I have a few thoughts, as well. I think
that it's true that showing the head gear does make
an individual look more militaristic, but I wonder if
that's something we want. I mean, the United
States does not have a history of emphasizing
military might and military personnel. It's true we
have honored some military individuals in the past,
but think of George Washington who generally
didn't want to be thought of as a general taking

42
over a country. He was a civilian. Eisenhower on his
coinage is a civilian.
I wonder if MacArthur has to have the hat with the
spaghetti on this. Maybe he's only recognizable that
way, but an outside person looking at these sees
what looks like a Latin American military dictator
staring out at us from the surface of these things.
And what is the good that? I just -- I don't know. I
mean, sure we know that this is MacArthur but a
recent immigrant is thinking oh, that looks like
General Himey that I just got away from. Kind of
wonder about this sort of thing. So, I think that we
might want to consider the head gear, but maybe
it's a good idea to not have anybody wearing head
gear.
Mr. Olson: Well, the plain fact is these gentlemen
were not a South American dictator. They were
Five-Star Generals -Mr. Hoge: Well, we know that.
Mr. Olson: -- and that's what their uniform looked
like.
Mr. Hoge: I know. I think MacArthur went overboard
-Mr. Olson: They should be honored for it.
Mr. Hoge: And I have another question here
regarding MacArthur who's such an interesting
character, controversial, too. But is it a good idea
that we are trying to make an entire coinage
directed towards sale to Oriental gold collectors,
because they might like MacArthur more than they
liked our other Five-Star Generals. I just have a
question here, stepping back, looking at it, why is
this a good idea? Can we make more money this
way if it's peddled specifically to Oriental people? I
don't know. Maybe we should talk about this more,
maybe not. It's just something that occurs to me
while we're having these discussions.

43
Mr. Harrigal: Bob, just one point of clarification.
That wasn't part of the design criteria on developing
the coins. It's kind of like one of the corollary type
of benefits of it that if it's a gold coin that the Asian
market is very big in gold. It wasn't a part of any of
the assignments we gave to -Mr. Hoge: But is it an accident that MacArthur's the
one general selected for the gold piece then?
Mr. Harrigal: That was not part of the discussion at
that point. It was more or less an afterthought of
hey, there's some side benefit here. Clearly, those
discussions were with the college and we basically
had rationale from the college as to what made
sense, and there was no reason not to go with that
for challenges.
Mr. Hoge:
Okay. Just some other slight
observations for the reverse types. I think we need
to be careful to avoid things that are too busy
looking, or too flat looking. And we do have some
nice options here, but having worked for 20 years
for the American Numismatic Association, I see the
lamp on the metal coin, it says immediately
American Numismatic Association or the University
of Michigan where the -Dr. Bugeja: How about Iowa State? Please.
(Simultaneous speaking.)
Mr. Hoge:
So, these things need to be well
explained. And I agree that we should have some
connection directly with the Fort Leavenworth
command in whatever form it appears there. And I'll
just defer to the rest of my colleagues.
Chair Marks: Before I move on to Heidi, I just want
to recognize the fact that the scoring sheets that I
passed out for you as far as reversals go are
problematic now because of the motion we made.
So know that when we get to that point I am -- I
have devised kind of a makeshift process here
where we're still going to have our ranking up to

44
three votes, but I'm going to do it by roll call by
denomination. So, I just want to make you aware of
that as we go forward.
Mr. Scarinci: Gary, can I go after -- can I go next
after -Chair Marks: Can you go next?
Mr. Scarinci: Would that throw you off?
Chair Marks: Are you going to defer? Okay, go
ahead.
Mr. Scarinci: I just want to -- we might as well get
the two New Yorkers out of the way first. And I just
want to say, you know, I wanted to go next because
I like everything that Bob said. And I don't know
why you sit me next to Michael Olson. We just -- so
he hits me or I hit him when he speaks.
Chair Marks: Actually, it was random this morning,
it truly was.
Mr. Scarinci: So, we fight, but CMr. Olson: Can we pick up on there?
Mr. Scarinci: But, you know, I -- whenever clients
come in, whenever I get -- I have to entertain
clients coming into New York City, one of the things
I always take them to is Fraunces Tavern. And just
last week I took somebody there. And the great
moment in world history, not American history, the
great moment in world history is a general bidding
farewell to his troops and resigning his commission,
probably a turning point in the history of the world
more than just America. And the founding fathers,
in fact, didn't even allow for a standing Army.
We in the 21st century, the end of the second part of
the last century have tended to glorify all of this.
And these endless military programs that are
coming out of Congress, the message -- and these
particular designs -- and I can't -- and I'm going to
talk about the -- we're going to talk about the

45
designs next because I'm referring to them as
designs because there is not a piece of art in this
group.
But these designs send an incredible message to the
world, don't they? I mean, I'll say no more, but on
top of all of the other military coins that are being
issued in seemingly rather quick succession to one
another. I'm not sure that when you view them all
in totality, the image that we are portraying
internationally is the image that most Americans
perceive of ourselves as Americans. But putting that
aside, I certainly understand exactly where Bob is
coming from, and I support it.
And speaking to the designs, this was easy for me
today because there's nothing here I'm voting for at
all. I mean, in fact, there's no comments that I feel
that I or anyone else could make about any of these
designs that is going to improve any of it.
You know, it's -- these are pictures on metal. These
are -- and, in fact, E.A. Grove did a far better job in
his series of 42 medals about 50 years ago
depicting World War II Generals and World War II
scenes. That aren't even cheap imitations of E.A.
Grove. You know these, unfortunately, are going to
last as American coins, and their designs in my
opinion are shameful in terms of its quality.
We look on the obverses and look what's going on
in the rest of the world. Look at what Janice
Strapoulis is doing, look at what's going on in
Poland, in Netherlands, in Lithuania, in Latvia, in
Belarus. Look at what's going on around us and
they are incorporating portraits in new and creative
ways on their coinage. They are not producing
pictures of people on metal that we insist on doing.
And that's all this is, pictures of people copied on to
metal. So, I think the obverses don't even warrant - there's nothing we can do to fix this. You know, I
mean nothing we can suggest to fix this. Okay?
Number two, as to the reverses, if all we're going to
do is just take objects and copy them on to metal,

46
as well, then that's great. And, hopefully, the
sponsoring organization has a great marketing plan
and can sell them to their alumni and their
colleagues because I don't see collectors spending
the money on any of this. This is not a set that I
plan to buy. You know, this is just -- there's nothing
pretty about any of it. There's nothing new about
any of it. There is no information being
communicated that's profound in any of it, so why
on God's earth would I spend $600 or so for a set of
these coins?
So, I think that there's enough said. I really don't -I'm going to pass by the way on speaking -- I
mean, I'm just going to restate -- I'm not going to
say it, but I'm just going to -- for purposes of, we'll
save a little time because maybe we can finish the
agenda and go to lunch which would be more
productive than anything we're going to do to try to
fix this mess.
You know, hopefully the sponsoring organization will
get the designs they want because they've got to
sell them. I mean, nobody else is going to sell them,
so I don't have anything else to say about these
designs or any of the other designs, so I'm not
going to speak on any of the other things. I've said
everything I care to say in response to this, and I
just wanted to thank Bob for his comments, as well.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Donald. You know, it's one
of the great things about this Committee is that like
our nation, we are diverse on this Committee also.
We are diverse in our points of view in our
assessment of designs. So, thank you, Donald,
because you represent a significant portion of our
nation in the views that you express.
So, with that we'll go from New York State to
Washington State.
Ms. Wastweet: Do you want to take your turn?
Chair Marks: I took my turn at the very beginning.

47
Ms. Wastweet: Okay.
Chair Marks: So, Washington State. Heidi.
Ms. Wastweet: Who can follow that? Don and I
usually agree on most of these points, and I agree
with some points but not all points, so I'll start with
my disagreement. I, in turn, really like the
MacArthur number three. I think that as a person
who's not well versed in the military images still I
can recognize this as MacArthur. Number two, which
is a preference, if it didn't have his name on it, I
wouldn't know who it is as a general person of the
public. But number three not only accomplishes a
portrait of a person, but it conveys an attitude, and
that is what we're trying to get the artist to do, is
not just copy the face onto the metal like Don is
saying. And I think this achieves that high level of a
portrait. It's recognizable as a likeness. It conveys
an attitude, a demeanor. The fact that the
sunglasses have no detail in the lenses conveys that
he wanted to have a sort of non-approachability
image. And the way it cuts the circle of the coin
makes it less expected. The way it cuts at the collar
is also less expected than just a typical head on a
coin, so I think that this design actually achieves all
that we've been asking for in a portrait.
I really like this one. My only problem here is this is
a gold coin so it's small, and it makes sense that we
have just a large head because of the size of the
gold coin. But look at the size of his name. That's
about the size of a Mint mark. I think it's way too
small. It's not legible, will not be legible to the
naked eye on the actual coin. I'm in favor of this
design with the change of enlarging that name as
much as will fit reasonably in that space.
Mr. Olson: Heidi, what about putting Liberty there
and his name along the edge?
Ms. Wastweet: I actually like the way the Liberty is
because it -- to me it makes it look like a circulating
coin because of we often see the Liberty portrayed
that way. I think his name will fit actually better as

48
is, just enlarged, because if we wrap it around the
edge the text would be smaller than the current text
of Liberty.
Mr. Moran: I think we put In God We Trust in
smaller text, and MacArthur down across the
bottom. I think Liberty is appropriate the way it is.
Ms. Wastweet: Yes, we could put Douglas MacArthur
where In God We Trust is and then just swap those
places. It's a larger change. I always try to make
the smallest amount of change because we don't
want a design by Committee, as we've stated many
times. So, the easiest thing to do is simply enlarge
it in the space that it is. So, I'm in strong support of
that.
Now, there's also been support of design number
two, if we can look at that a moment. There's a little
technical issue here. Look at the line from his
earlobe down his collar. That's an awkward piece of
flesh there, and I'm not a fan of the way that's
represented. It's easy to overlook it in the drawing,
but as a sculpture, and if I were looking at this, if
this were assigned to me as a sculptor and I was
doing that, I would have a large -- I would have
great difficulty in making that a convincible looking
jaw line.
Mr. Hoge: Could I make a point about that? One
thing I notice, and this is a very good observation,
but if you look at all of these drawings of him, you
wonder what the heck did his face and features
really look like, because the drawings of the ears
are all totally different. I mean, they're like different
people.
Ms. Wastweet: Yes.
Mr. Hoge: Which one is accurate? What is the
correct -Ms. Wastweet: Yes, ears are often overlooked. We
each have very individual ears.

49
Mr. Hoge: We know from Sherlock Holmes.
Ms. Wastweet: And if I were to micromanage I
would definitely address the ears, but that's outside
our scope. Also, design number five had some
support, and I'd like to look at that one.
This is drawn in a stylized fashion that makes it look
quite lumpy, and in looking at photographs of him,
historic photographs, he was not wrinkly, or lumpy,
or anywhere near this, so if this was -- a sculptor
was to attempt to portray this drawing in a metal I
think that would -- especially on a reduced size
coin, the way that the light reflects on the metal
would not be pleasant.
Also, Don, you suggested using some texture in the
sunglasses. I don't think that that would read as
well as just having a smooth concave. Because of
the reflective nature of the metal, it's going to
portray the reflective nature of glass anyway, so I
think by trying to add texture to portray that kind of
gets in the way then of the natural reflective
qualities of the metal. In the plaster it would
probably look great to have the texture, but then
when you got to the coin the two elements would
compete with each other.
Mr. Everhart: I think if you did a gradated texture
light to dark, top to bottom that it would -Ms. Wastweet: Are you talking like a sandblasting
kind of texture, or a sculpted texture?
Mr. Everhart: Sculpted and very subtle, but fade it
from like a dark at the top or bottom. You could do
it either way, probably the top, and fade it out so
that there is a gradation of texture so that it just
doesn't look like a blank shiny area. That's how I
envision it.
Ms. Wastweet: Okay. So, those are all my
comments on MacArthur. If we go to the
Eisenhower-Marshall, we've heard a lot about hats,
not hats. I would like to ask the Colonel to weigh in

50
his opinion on the hats, no hats issue.
Col. Ulin: Well, the reason I picked the one that I
did is because the faces are more accurate. I pass
the photographs of these gentlemen every day in
the Hall of Fame, so I really know what they look
like. And the reason I picked the ones that I did is
because the likeness was more accurate.
Having their name on it is important. The current
generation has no idea who these gentlemen are,
absolutely no idea. And not just -- and some in the
military generation but the general population at
large. Without the names, they're not discernible
figures. The President certainly, the others probably
not. The reason I picked that is that is probably the
most accurate likeness, and the last one in the
series, I forget what number it was.
Ms. Wastweet: Eight.
Col. Ulin: Is that eight? That one was very, very
accurate, as well. I'm sorry. No, go one more. Is
that the last one? Okay. Yes, the last one. That's
pretty accurate. Go back one, please. That is not
accurate. It makes Eisenhower look like a bulldog.
Marshall, those are more accurate. That is not a
good likeness of Marshall. His face is too thin. That
is not bad, but Marshall's face is a little too thin.
But like I said, I walk by the photographs every day,
and so what I was looking at, I want to go back,
what is the best representation of these gentlemen
to show them in the best light, but also something
that would stand out on the coin. Quite honestly, I
think the silver coin is going to be a real winner
because of size, and because of these two
gentlemen, of all the Five-Star Generals they stand
out.
Ms. Wastweet: Thank you for that insight.
Col. Ulin: Thank you.
Ms. Wastweet: In light of that, I also support

51
number six. Even though they are not wearing the
hats, we see a great deal of their uniform, and they
are very dignified. Even though one shoulder is in
front of the other, the faces are on par with each
other. And I do feel a sense of equality between the
two.
I also love the stripes in the background. I think this
echoes some of the previous designs that we've
picked like the 9/11 medal, so if we think about our
coinage as one whole body then I think this fits in
not only with this set but with our past choices, and
continues that new American style that we're
looking for. So, I really like this design. I think that
there's a lot of words on here, so to make all the
text unified in that ring is a good choice. And, also,
the amount of information is appropriate for the size
of the silver coin, so I'm very much in favor of this
one.
There's been some support of number four, but as
the Colonel said, the likeness is not as accurate.
And, frankly, I think the design is very expected and
uncreative.
So, next group is the Arnold and Bradley. And I
must say, I don't like any of these. Number one is
out of balance. The word "Liberty" is way too small,
all the heads are way too big. You're going to run
into a technical problem with having that much
volume that close to the rim with no space. It's
going to be very difficult in the production portion of
the coin for striking. And that little -- on the
lefthand side, that little sliver of metal between the
rim and the head, the production people are not
going to like that. And then it just looks out of
balance because the letters are so small and the
heads are too big.
And then on number three, as stated before, the
disembodied floating feel of this is not appealing to
me whatsoever. And then number six has got a lot
of support. And while this is a very nice drawing, I
get-- not only is it missing hats, but it's also missing

52
any sense of a uniform. They do -- they're just in
suits so rather than not emphasizing the military, it
actually de-emphasizes the military aspect. And
while I like the image, I like the choice of one higher
than the other to compensate one shoulder being
ahead of the other, and I like the balance of the
lettering, still the details which complete lack any
military reference cause me to not support it.
So, on the reverses let's start with number three, if
we can. This had a preference by the Affinity Group.
There is a lot of text here, and we're usually not in
favor of so much text, but it does have a purpose
here to convey the information rather than just
saying Fort Leavenworth, the U.S. Army Command
and General Staff College. That's important
information. And because this is a preference, I'm in
favor of this design.
Number two, I think I'm going to be in favor of this
one, also, simply for the fact it does say Fort
Leavenworth. And we're missing that on a lot of
these. And none of them reference the anniversary,
which is in the legislation, so I don't know why we
weren't given any choices that conveyed the 132nd
anniversary.
Mr. Hoge: Poor choice of anniversary.
Ms. Wastweet: It is an odd number, but it is in the
legislation. And that would add more lettering where
we already have quite a bit of lettering. I do like the
eagle which has got support. It's got everything but
the kitchen sink, and also the band of olive leaves
again too close to the rim, makes it look crowded
and causes technical difficulties, as well. The lamp,
while it looks great in this blown up projected image
is not going to be visible on the coin.
Jeanne made a comment that we were lacking the
oak leaves. The oak leaves balances the olive
branch in that one is peace, one is strength. I do
feel like having the sword and arrows replaces the
oak leaves as the representation of the strength, so
there is a little balance of war and peace there. A lot

53
going on, though. I will support it. It is a little
modern. Well, it's very modern the depiction of the
feathers, and that's something we've been looking
for. I'll support this for the largest diameter piece,
which I believe is the clad. Is the clad the same
size?
Participant: It's a dollar.
Ms. Wastweet: It's a dollar. Okay. All right. I think
that's it.
Mr. Jansen: As usual, I got most of my opinions
from Heidi. I'm going to start with the reverses
here. And I think it's obvious to everyone at this
point that we're not picking great art. We're
scraping stuff together to get this job done, so I
don't feel as strongly as Donald on this. But I do
feel the fact that structurally we're kind of throwing
a bunch out, and now picking three out of the six
reverses for the half. And I feel like I'm finishing the
job of making the sausage here.
Now, reverses. On a practical basis, I look at this
page and I have four choices. I have a lamp, I have
a shield ornamented, and I have two others,
including the ever popular eagle. So, necessarily, of
the lamps I, too, go for number three. I think that's
probably -- and I could be wrong on this, but that
looks like it's probably best on the gold, the smaller
coin. I think the incuse will help us a lot on putting
this much stuff on such a small coin. I would also
vote for number two for the half dollar, and number
six for the dollar.
Now, I want to talk icons for a moment before I get
to MacArthur. And that's the five stars, because I
think we have the five star symbol present on all
three denominations of the obverses. So, the
question is do we want ten stars on this coin, or
not? And so I look at this and I say okay, looking at
design number two, I've got five stars. Now, I'm
used to 13 stars, so what's with this five? So, I
think we need to make a conscious effort to either
modify or whatever the implementations of stars on

54
the reverse designs here. I have the same problem
with number three, and number six. Well, we know
why the three stars are on the shield so I don't
really have that big of a problem. They're certainly
not featured. So, that's something I would
encourage the Committee to think about when we
finalize our recommendations.
Move to MacArthur. I have one comment. Where's
the corn cob pipe? Because he is an icon, and that's
part of the icon, the sunglasses, the pipe, and the
man.
I would go for number three, except I think the
bleed on the hat is really kind of unfortunate. It
almost looks like he went to Oxford and he's got
that red velvet pillow thing on his head. It's just an
unfortunate bleed. If it were a little higher it
probably wouldn't be a bleed. If it was a little lower,
it might be better. Agreed that too small a lettering.
I fundamentally kind of like the design. I like the
way the bleed is on the collar. That's pretty cool.
My choice is actually number five, because I think
that's the icon. I think that's the man that people
look at and go yes, "I shall return." I have a
problem with the MacArthur at the 12:00 position
because I think the MAC should be treated in a
lower case, or at least the AC. And it's all treated
upper case, and I think that's an unnecessary
dumbing down of his name. Similar comment on
number six, if you happen to like that.
Now, the question is where do we put the five stars
that appear in number six on number five so it
complies with kind of the device convention which
we've informally put in place here. And I don't know
the answer to that, but again, as you're voting think
about we need five stars on this coin one side or the
other. Figure it out.
Mr. Olson: It's on his collar.
Ms. Wastweet: It's on his collar.

55
Mr. Olson: I'm happy with that.
Mr. Jansen: If this is a -- I'm with you. If this is a
gold coin, you think you're going to see that?
Mr. Moran: Doesn't bother me.
Mr. Jansen: It doesn't bother you. Let's put an eagle
next to the -- put an eagle inside the five stars, we
can solve that problem.
All right. I'm going to go on to the obverse of the
clad half here, the silver dollar, excuse me. And I
think hats uber alles is the way you have to look at
this, although it's probably not the right language to
be politically correct. I am -- again, I've got a little
tweaking going on here. I like four and six, big
surprise there. I love the stripes on six. That just
gave me -- I mean, I can immediately feel our
engraver over here, Don, having a little fun with the
stripes in back, makes cool proof, blah, blah, blah.
But I think Marshall just looks flat out grumpy in
that picture. Now, maybe he was grumpy. I don't
know. Is he a grumpy guy?
Col. Ulin: He could be.
Mr. Jansen: Yes, okay. He looks grumpy to me.
Col. Ulin: They all could be.
Mr. Jansen: We don't have any hats in number six,
so I go back to number four, and I say it's pretty
cool, but the five star thing is just looking really
distracting to me. It's worse in five, but do we make
that incuse? I mean, how do we treat those five
stars to make them what they should be without
blasting away and taking all eye motion and eye
control away from the two portraits? It is a large
coin so think about that when you're voting.
Moving to the half dollar, I'm with Heidi on this. I
kind of looked at them and go really? Number six is
kind of where I default to because I really just don't
like the feel of number three. In number three they

56
look like bus drivers to me. I'm sorry, but they do.
In number 13, the gentlemen look sophisticated. I
concur that they have no uniform on them, so it's
hard to really call these military men. We've got the
five stars there. Could we incuse them? I think
incuse is a powerful tool used carefully and not that
often. The In God We Trust is really small even for a
half dollar coin. I'm not sure how you fix it.
Those are my comments. I just wish we had a little
more involvement in the formation of the spec going
out to the artist. It's just really hard when you
don't get -- when you're put in a position that
instead of picking wonderful choices we're kind of
cutting and pasting, and scrimping, and trying to
put together something to enable the production
guys to get on with it. I don't like that. That makes
me feel sad.
Chair Marks: Done?
Mr. Jansen: Done.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Erik. Michael.
Mr. Moran: It's fatal coming last behind both Don
and Heidi. I'm going to be short and to the point on
some of these.
On MacArthur, I'm for number three. And I really
had no problems with the five stars being down
there on his collar. I think the requirement that you
have that clean pentagon in the center of them can
be a problem. It's distracting on several of these
designs, and we're stuck with it. But when you see
it on the collar, it's a finesse. And I love a finesse
because all of these coins when we get to them are
weighted down with a lot of symbolism we don't
necessarily need.
I will say that I do miss the corn cob because I think
that's the one common commenting factor for
MacArthur; otherwise, he's not a common man. I
disagree with Heidi about the inscriptions here. I

57
like the inscriptions. I like the size of them, the
Liberty where it is, the date, I think it's a relatively
good feel. I think that if you enlarge Douglas
MacArthur you take some of that away. I really
have no problems in this case design by permitting
sticking In God We Trust up there in that size, and
putting Douglas MacArthur in the size of In God We
Trust down at the bottom of it. I really think that
gives us the best offset. I'm not going to comment
on any of those because that's what I'm going to
vote.
On the dollar coin, I do want to make a comment. I
know we threw out number seven, but I want to say
something about it. I'm not a positive man. The fact
that when you look shoulder strap of Marshall, it's
way out of proportion, way out of wack, and I would
hope in the future that when we get these sketches
that that kind of roughness is filtered out before we
see it, because I just threw that one without even
really considering it because we can't fix that kind of
thing here, how it looks when it focused off the way
it should be. And that's a review function that needs
to be fixed here at the Mint.
That being said, I am -- again, I think number four,
I like it, but we're suffering again from the fact that
the pentagon needs to be there, and it's a little
large. And, particularly, it detracts in number five
for sure. It's borderline on number four. I hope I'm
not getting suckered by the quality of the sketch on
number six, because that's an excellent sketch. I
hope that Don can reproduce that in metal, and
that's where I'm going to go on this one. Enough
said on that.
On the half dollars, I can't like any of them. And I
vote a zero on all of them. I don't mean that so
much against the designers as I just -- I can't get
there. I mean, I'm not going to say any more.
On the reverses, we're stuck because of what's
happened here with three styles of reverses. We're
going to put a lamp on one, the heraldry sign on

58
another symbol, and obviously everybody is going
to put the eagle on another. You can see it coming,
so I'll comment on that in particular.
Number three, the alternative to four, too much, too
much, too much. We just can't do that. I don't care
if you incuse it. You can't, it's just overwhelming.
You've got the heraldry there on the lamp, as well.
Number four to me, you've taken the heraldry off
and it's clean. You take the five stars out of there,
you put that on the half eagle five dollar gold piece
and I think you've got a good design that will carry
on that small nickel size tondo.
In terms of the half dollar I think that you can see
plainly that the coat of arms is what looks best on
the half dollar. And I don't see -- if you've got
Leavenworth on the ribbon, you don't need it across
the bottom. It's too much, it's overkill. And I really
do like number seven, guys. That's clean, it's nice,
and it says the same thing. It doesn't detract by not
having Fort Leavenworth there.
And, finally, as much as Heidi criticized the eagle on
-- I know she's going to vote for it on the dollar
coin, so am I. Because, again, we're running out of
options. But I can live with that. It's what it is, and
I'm going to vote for the dollar coin, and the eagle
will be the dollar coin. However Gary figures out
how we're going to vote on the reverse. Okay,
done.
Chair Marks: Okay. We're all done. Now, we've had
a lot of discussion on this. Usually we have some
follow-ups. Here's our time, folks. We're scheduled
to break for lunch at 12:30. We still have the Code
Talker medals to get through which I anticipate
won't take as much time as this exercise has been,
but still we want to give it the time it needs. So, I
would like to have this discussion wrapped up within
the next 10 minutes inclusive of -- I want to give
you some additional instructions about how to vote
for the reverse. So, let's -- if we have some
questions, let's not more than five minutes. Let's do

59
our follow-ups and get that done. Do we have any?
Mr. Olson: Could I just make a recommendation
that would hopefully lead to more streamlined
voting? Could we agree on what design, not
necessarily which specific design but lamp, crest,
eagle we're voting for on each denomination?
Chair Marks: I think we could, Michael. I think my
preference would be -- I've come up with an idea to
keep this even on our evaluation sheets. Why don't
we go through our rudimentary individual
evaluations like we would normally do. I'm going to
show you how to do that here in a moment, and
let's have that very discussion. Okay? I think we Clet's organize ourselves around what our initial take
is on everything. I want to keep this simple. Any
other comment?
Mr. Olson: Just one more. Keep in mind who the
audience is for these coins. Now, as Colonel Ulin
stated, there's going to be a lot of officers coming
through the school, graduates of the school,
90,000, that for whatever reason may only want to
buy the least expensive coin that says Fort
Leavenworth or represents their time there. So, I
think the sentiment of the group is to have the
eagle on the silver dollar which that is great, but I
guess what I would ask for is some consideration on
whatever gets put on the half dollar let's make sure
that clearly represents Fort Leavenworth and the
Command and General Staff College, which number
three certainly would. Number two, I agree, I -there's really no reason to have that on there two
times, but I guess I question on a half dollar size we
may not be able to read the Leavenworth. So, I
guess that is what I would really like to see, is on
the half dollar a design that clearly shows without a
lot of interpretation Fort Leavenworth.
Chair Marks: That's a good point. Thanks.
Mr. Scarinci: I'm sure Michael didn't mean to
suggest this, but the constituents for the coins, for

60
these American commemorative coins of the United
States Mint are the American people.
Mr. Olson: But, Donald, you just said no one was
going to buy them other than people that graduated
from there.
Mr. Scarinci: Not any constituency group because
constituency groups can go commission medals, and
sell them privately.
Mr. Olson: Well, in your own words you said -Chair Marks: Okay, point is made.
Mr. Olson: -- no one is going to buy them except -Chair Marks: There's no point in pursuing that. Point
is made. Okay, folks, take your evaluation sheets,
and this is how I want to jerry-rig this. On the gold,
cross out the last three and treat the seven as your
evaluation. Cross out the last three. On the silver
dollar add a six and a seven like this. Add a six and
a seven. And then the half dollar already is
appropriate. And then just go ahead for each of
them and do your evaluation.
Now, for those who are our guest today just a short
explanation on our evaluation process. Every
member is given the opportunity to numerically
evaluate the designs. Each member is entitled to
give up to three tally scores or votes to any given
design. They can give any given design three, they
can give any given design two, one, or zero. What
this does is it creates a weighted evaluation that
measures intensity.
So we have 10 members here today, the top
possible score on any design is 30, so when we read
the results of this evaluation later keep in mind the
30 because that gives you a gauge of intensity. To
get the Committee's recommendation by our own
adopted rule we have to achieve a score of 16,
that's 50 percent plus one, so any score over 16

61
which is the top score for a particular design unless
there's a subsequent motion becomes our
recommendation.
So, at this point I'm going to ask each member to
go ahead and fill out your evaluation sheets, to pass
those all in to Erik who is our tally scorer.
Mr. Jansen: Thank you.
Chair Marks: And with that we're going to take a
15-minute break. I intend to bring the meeting back
to order promptly at 11:40. We will at that point
announce the scoring that we've accomplished here.
I anticipate we'll have to have some additional
discussion particularly in light of the direction we've
gone with the reverse.
I hope to have all of the Five-Star General
accomplished by noon, and then we can launch into
the Code Talkers. In fact, I'm probably going to
break us at noon, and I'll discuss that later.
Mr. Moran: Gary, can we think about working
through lunch? Once we go to lunch, we never get
done.
Chair Marks: No, you need to trust me on this one.
We need to break at noon. So, with that, we're
going to take a 15-minute break.
(Whereupon, the proceedings went off the record at
11:24 a.m., and resumed at 11:46 a.m.)
Review and Discuss Candidate Designs for The Code
Talkers Congressional Medal (Choctaw, Osage, and
Pawnee Nations & Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe)
Chair Marks: Okay, I'll bring us back to order. We
took a little bit longer for the break. We needed to
pull some things together on our scoring for the
tally on the Five-Star Generals. With respect to the
Code Talker program we have representatives from
the tribe here in the room now, so I'd like to go
ahead and honor the fact that they're here with us

62
and launch immediately into our discussion about
Code Talkers.
I know that when we go through the scoring for the
Five-Star Generals it's going to cause immediate
discussion, so rather than do that we are going to
go into Code Talkers right now. So, at this point I
will ask Ron to take us through his report.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay, great. Thank you, Gary.
Legislation is Public Law 110-420, authorizes the
Secretary of the Treasury to strike Congressional
medals to recognize the dedication and valor of
Native American Code Talkers to the United States
Armed Services during World War I and World War
II.
These gold medals will be produced for the Native
American tribes that had members who served as
Code Talkers. Silver duplicates will be made and
presented to specific Code Talkers or their next of
kin. Bronze duplicates will be produced for sale to
the public in the 3-inch and inch and a half sizes.
The Deputy Secretary of Defense prepared a list and
identified to date 22 tribes that have had Code
Talkers, 180 individuals are on the list. The list will
be updated as the records reflect more members
and more tribes.
Each tribe was contacted to establish design
concepts and appointment of an official liaison who
works directly with the tribal historians and other
experts for design reviews.
The Department of Defense designated the U.S.
Army Center of Military History as our liaison. The
team completes historical accuracy reviews of
military uniforms and equipment as seen on the
obverse designs.
Our obverse design concept is a representation of
the Code Talker's dedication to military service, and
the reverse design concept features iconic symbols
and elements unique to the tribe, including their

63
tribal seals for elements of their seal.
There are no legislatively required inscriptions;
however, for design consistency the obverse depicts
the tribe name, the word "Code Talkers," and if
desired a language quote of some sort that's unique
to the tribe. Reverse inscriptions include World War
I and/or World War II, as applicable, and Act of
Congress 2008.
Today we'll review obverse and reverse designs for
the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe, the Choctaw
Nation, the Osage Nation, and the Pawnee Nation.
We have representatives from three of the four
tribes, plus also a representative from the American
Indian Alaska Native Veterans Department of
Veterans Affairs, Ms. Juanita Mullen. She's here as
an observer. And the first tribe that we are going
into, of course, is the Cheyenne River Sioux, and we
have a representative here, Mr. Lyle Cook who
would like to speak to some of the tribe's
preferences here.
Mr. Cook: Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee -(Lakota language.)
Mr. Cook: I'll translate what I just shared. I greeted
each and every one of you in our language stating I
extended my hand to you in greeting with a good
heart. I shared that I'm a common man amongst
our people, and that I have come here to speak on
behalf -- I am the liaison for the Cheyenne River
Lakota tribe, a/k/a known as the Cheyenne River
Sioux Tribe.
I'm very honored to be here. I've been working very
hard with Ms. Betty Birdsong. I have many -- I wear
many hats, and when I was contacted by the Tribe
to be the liaison, designated to be the liaison, Ms.
Birdsong worked very hard with me. The Committee
must be given direction on when to contact me
because usually I'm either on travel or on another
commitment and I get hit with this request. Even
our emails seem to not catch up with me until like

64
the day of or day before the deadline, so if you see
a few of these gray hairs, because of you guys.
(Laughter.)
Mr. Cook: But to talk about the design, I guess
most of you have our design. I'll just share a little
bit about the -- although I'm standing here talking,
I met with a lot of our veterans, World War II
veterans, Korea Veterans, every campaign. Even
though it refers to World War II and World War I, I
even got comments from our today veterans. Our
people are represented in each campaign.
So, if you'll see, I think this is the first one, the
front. That over there is the military ones, that's the
front side. Yes. Okay. In our language down here
we put -(Lakota language.)
Mr. Cook: And what that's basically saying in
English is that our Good River Soldiers fight the
enemy. At that time the enemy was whoever was in
opposition to the United States.
One thing to understand is our language -- English
is backwards for our language, and we cannot
translate a word directly into English, so this is a
meaning. For an individual to sit here and say well,
what does this mean? Give me the English word for
it. I can't give you a direct answer. That was
something -- the Lakota Code Talkers. Our people
are under the Seven Council Fires. We're a great
nation. Many of you know yesterday was the Battle
of the Greasy Grass, Custer's last battle, last stand.
So, out of those Seven Council Fires there's seven
sub-tribes they're called.
Our Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe comes from what's
called a Tetuwan. The Tetuwan is kind of referring
to the Buffalo Nation people. We were nomadic, we
covered a wide area of the United States, and we
lived off the buffalo, so the Tetuwan is kind of
referring to the Buffalo Nation people.

65
We have three speaking dialects, Lakota, Dakota,
Nakota. Where I'm from, our dialect is Lakota, so
that's why we have Lakota Code Talkers, so that's
to help identify who we are. But even though we're
-- in South Dakota we have nine reservations, we're
all the same people. We have people up in Montana,
North Dakota, Minnesota, Iowa, most of the states
around that area are our people, that because of
the Battle of Little Bighorn, the United States
separated us, conquer and divide, reservation here,
reservation here, so now each one of them is
recognized as a tribe. So, each one of them -- I
won't be the only one that you will meet from South
Dakota, or meet from the Lakota Nation, Dakota
Nation, Nakota, because each of them have Code
Talkers, as well.
We had Code Talkers in World War I, we had Code
Talkers in World War II. My father, my grandfather,
many of my uncles were World War II veterans. My
great-grandfather was a U.S. Army scout, so we've
had dealings in my lineage serving the United
States military services. But prior to that, the same
time that the Battle of the Little Bighorn, many of
my great-grandfathers were also participants there,
so I walk in two worlds so to speak. I walk in their
world carrying on their tradition, their lineage, but I
also walk in this world. I served in the U.S. military,
so it was a very great honor when I was given this
responsibility.
Now to go to the back side, World War I, World War
II, obviously, I shared, you know, we had Code
Talkers there at all times, so we were very satisfied
with that. I was asked to provide something that
says what defines who the reservation is, who your
tribe is. So, I just took our tribe, our flag. The top
part is our tribal flag, Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe,
and in color if you had seen it -- well, there it is
right there. You know, there's a representation of
what this means.
The most important thing is the bottom part of it,
the two pipes. We have what they call is the Sacred

66
White Buffalo Calf Pipe and that was presented to us
by the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Woman. So, in our
history buffalo plays very important. And we still
have that pipe today. We still have a pipe keeper
that takes care of it. It's been passed down
generation from generation. There is no way for me
to say, or anybody to say how old that pipe is. It's
been from time immemorial for us, so that's very
great significance of our flag.
You'll see four letters there, four words there.
Mnicoujou, in English refers to plants by the water.
Itazipco has a couple of meanings referring to
Without Bows, our Sans Arc people. Siha Sapa is
black feet. Oohenumpa is two kettle. Myself, my
mother was Mnicoujou, my father is Itazipco, so
depending on how you're talking to amongst our
people I would belong to Itazipco band because
that's my father's band. So, when you look at those
bands and you see these four teepees at the
bottom, those are in reference to each of those
bands. We're not just one band.
The buffalo, obviously, is kind of in reference to,
again like I said, the White Buffalo Calf, but also
Tetuwan refers to the Buffalo Nation people
meaning that we lived off the buffalo. That was our
main source. We used everything from the buffalo.
Down here, Act of Congress. We -- Ms. Birdsong
and I -- I think she was my go-between here, so
don't shoot the messenger. 2008 we asked that that
be removed. When I was meeting with a lot of our
veterans, I also met with tribal veteran service
officers that represented other tribes, other
veterans. This was one of the discussions we had
with this Congressional Code Talkers Medal. And as
a united effort when the Navajo Code Talkers were
honored at that time, the consensus was at the
meeting all the Code Talkers should have been
honored, so the instructions I have received and
requested to ask was why do we need 2008 in
there? It's kind of like the veterans back home feel
it's a slap in the face. That's the best way I can

67
state it. So, we just said well, let's just go with Act
of Congress. I know that some of you may not
understand that, but those are instructions I
received when I left home. Many times elders,
World War II, Korea, Vietnam.
I, myself, am considered a peace time veteran. The
era I served in was Lebanon, Grenada era. I've
been out almost 30 years now. I didn't realize at the
time, you know, as a young man I finished school.
Didn't have much options, just lost my mother. I
went to school, trade school, finished, graduated,
didn't have no employment opportunities, so I
moved from one state to another. And I knew some
people, so I was staying with them, and they asked
me, "What are you going to do?" So, I said, "I'll join
the military." And lo and behold, that's how I
became -- you know, I served in the United States
Army as a medic. But I didn't know at the time
when I joined the service, when I went home the
people in our community said now you're Akichita.
That means protector, I protect the people. I
became one of like my father, my grandfather, my
uncles, some of my aunts, some of my grandmas,
my great-grandpa. So, I didn't realize I fulfilled a
role, a society role as a male of my people. So, a lot
of that comes into all of this, so I'm not just
standing here as a member of the tribe. I stand
here representing many members of the tribe,
many veterans, Akichita. Yes, sir?
Mr. Ross: Why do you honor the 1868 date? It
would seem like the treaty would be something you
would think the tribe would predate an 1868 treaty
date?
Mr. Cook: Unfortunately, this is the government.
Personally, myself, I wanted to strike that. The
government came back and responded it would cost
too much money to redo everything in the books
and on record to strike that. Unfortunately, I am not
a councilman, I am not the chairman of the tribe so
I don't have any weight to say let's strike that.

68
Yes, I wanted to strike it. And I think I talked to Ms.
Birdsong about striking it, but somewhere along the
line the Committee struck it down and left it in
there. Yes?
Mr. Olson: Can you clarify again, on the 2008 date
you do not wish to have that on there because it's
associated with the Navajo Code Talkers, or what -Mr. Cook: No, it's not associated with the Navajo
Code Talkers. Our people felt that at the time the
Navajo Code Talkers were recognized and honored,
all Code Talkers, not just Lakota, Nakota, Dakota,
all of the Code Talkers should have been recognized
at that time. So, me, I sat there. I presented
everything. Everything Ms. Birdsong sent me I
pulled it out. These are the designs, asked for
feedback, certain questions.
The National American Indian Veterans Association,
they're always out here in Washington lobbying for
American Indian veterans, and that was one of the
things the Tribal Veteran Service Office, when they
came together that was the thing they pointed out,
that 2008. But what they also pointed out and what
I seen was many of the designs, some of them
didn't have that in there. It just had Act of
Congress. So, I said okay. Well, I don't see any
problem with that because I see some of the
designs it's omitted, so let's just go with that.
Chair Marks:
want it in?

So, you don't want it in, or you do

Mr. Cook: No, we don't want the 2008 in there.
Chair Marks: Because you weren't honored at that
time. Is that right?
Mr. Cook: Well, I'm not sure what year it was when
our nation -Participant: 2000.
Mr. Cook: Yes. So, just so appease my elders I said

69
okay, I will go forward with that because that's what
you're requesting of me.
Ms. Wastweet: So, the date represents the fact that
they were being honored much later than the
Navajo.
Mr. Cook: I'm sorry. I'm not very good in English,
so if I talk a little backwards, understand.
Chair Marks: You're fine.
Mr. Cook: English is backwards to the Lakota
language. So, I'm not sure how much time we have.
Dr. Bugeja: Do you have a favorite reverse?
Mr. Cook: Excuse me?
Dr. Bugeja: Do you have a favorite reverse of all
these? I can't hear all the way back. Which was
your favorite reverse?
Mr. Cook: This one.
Dr. Bugeja: This one there. Right?
Participant: Number seven.
Dr. Bugeja: Number seven.
Mr. Cook: I'm not sure what number it is.
Participant: Number seven.
Dr. Bugeja: And you would prefer the 1868 to be
gone. Is that -- no, you want to keep it?
Mr. Cook: Yes.
Dr. Bugeja: Gone.
Ms. Wastweet: No, he wants it gone.
Dr. Bugeja: You want it gone. Right?
Mr. Cook: Yes.

70
Dr. Bugeja: Excuse me. I'm getting older and I just
couldn't hear you.
Mr. Cook: Oh, that's fine. I've got hearing loss, too.
Dr. Bugeja: I just want to make sure I know what
your wishes were, which is why I reiterated it.
Mr. Cook: So, that's kind of what I wanted to share.
But I did also -(Lakota language.)
Mr. Cook: I wanted to share something with you. In
World War II every time our men, our women went
off to serve songs were made, made for those eras
for those people, so I'm going to share that with
you before I give up the floor. So, if you'll excuse
me.
Participant: Oh, thank you.
Mr. Cook: Let me yield my time.
Participant: Appreciate it.
Mr. Cook: What I said is I'm going to share this
World War II song. It's to honor Code Talkers.
(Lakota song.)
(Applause.)
Chair Marks: Thank you, sir.
Ms. Mullen: I'm sorry. I just want to make sure that
Lenny completely understands the question that
came about 1868. Lyle, did you want to 1868 to
come off of the design?
Mr. Cook: Yes.
Ms. Mullen: Okay, he does.
Chair Marks: Okay.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. Thank you. I guess I really can't

71
add to that in any fashion. Just a note on the
obverse design number two was the tribe's
preference, and also the CFA. And when we go back
to the reverse the design number seven was also
endorsed by the CFA.
So, with that said we will now go on to the Choctaw
Nation. And Mr. Timothy Evans of Holland & Knight
law firm will speak on behalf of the Choctaw Nation.
Mr. Evans: Good morning, everyone.
Chair Marks: Good morning.
Mr. Evans: I'm Tim Evans. I'm with the law firm,
Holland & Knight, as was mentioned. We work quite
a bit of work here in Washington, D.C. on behalf of
the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma. Ms. Judy Allen
who is the usual liaison has worked on this matter
for the nation sends her regards. She could not be
here today, so I've been asked to come and speak
on behalf of the nation.
I guess to begin with halito on behalf of the nation,
and that's about as much Choctaw as I speak. So,
that's sort of it. I member of the Haliwa-Saponi
tribe from North Carolina. If you want to speak in
Tutelo or Saponi, I can go there but not for
Choctaw.
I guess sort of on behalf of my client Choctaw
nation, just sort of put it straight out there as my
sort of direct request and marching orders as their
representative here in D.C. They chose unanimously
for the obverse design number three, and for the
reverse design number one. And I was specifically
asked that if the Committee believes that there are
any changes or a different design than was desired
go back to the nation and consider that. They're
pretty adamant about their request here. And
anybody who knows Choctaw knows that they can
be very adamant about things they believe in.
I guess a couple of things just to mention on behalf
of the nation with regard to obverse design number

72
three. The nation felt very strongly that this was a
fairly accurate representation of the design they'd
like to see. They believe it's important to have sort
of a serious facial expression for the soldier shown
here.
The writing on the tablet is important to them, not
least of which is the fact that it's incomplete which
means he's actually in motion and in action. And I
think that's important on behalf of many native
people who are oftentimes seen as being passive
existers here in this country, not as active
participants in the military, not even sort of in
society, in general, quite frankly. This shows -- this
design, the nation believes, shows that Choctaw
members in particular, natives more generally, are
active participants in this society, and in a part of
society that much of America does not believe
natives have a part in, and that's actually in the
military for the U.S.
They believe that the uniform and the inscription to
Code Talkers in terms of Choctaw nation are
accurate as they are, and they would request this
actual design. The other designs that were
considered for the obverse, the nation unanimously
between their legislative body, the chief, Judy Allen
herself as the liaison on this matter, they felt that
the other designs were too busy with the borders,
especially in light of the fact that their preferred
reverse actually has a more important border to the
diamond shape, and I'll get into that in a second.
But they like sort of the clean nature and
appearance of the obverse number three.
They felt it's accurate. It shows exactly what the
soldier as a Code Talker is doing. It's not too busy
say as with the borders from number one or two.
Number four, a bit too, I think, generic for a Code
Talker. I don't mean that in a demeaning sense, but
this could be a soldier doing a variety of types of
work; and, therefore, they wanted to signify Code
Talker. Number five, a bit too busy with the detailed
box, machinery there. It takes a bit away from the

73
soldier himself, so I think that's sort of an accurate
representation as I have been briefed on behalf of
my client as to their reasoning behind their choice
for number three for the obverse.
On the reverse in which they prefer number one. A
few things here. Essentially, this is the Choctaw
Nation of Oklahoma seal, and there are sort of
varieties based upon that through numbers one
through four. But, again, I think they prefer a more
simple and clean design here to get the message
through. Number three and number four in
particular I think are -- it's a bit hard, actually, to
pull out what's significant to the nation here, and
the three historical items here.
As we see in number one clearly, there are three
arrows that represent historical chiefs for the
nation. There is the smokepipe hatchet which was
passed among councils in the nation during both
peace and war times, and there's also the bow
which during peace times was left unstrung, but
was always kept ready to protect their local villages.
So, they think that this accurately represents again
fairly simply and cleanly the basic inscriptions of
World War I and World War II. And also, the
diamond design here is very important to Choctaw.
It actually relates to the diamondback rattlesnake,
which to them cautions people to respect their
surroundings and their environment. And it serves
as a warning that you need to pay attention to the
things that are most important to you, and the
things that give you sustenance and livelihood, the
world around you.
When it comes to Act of Congress 2008, they
actually -- with all due respect to the representative
of Cheyenne River, they actually embrace this
because to them time is passing, and they finally
got here in 2008, particularly with the help of
Representative Dan Boren as a sponsor of this
legislation. He was their local Congressman. I think
it's very important to them.

74
If these designs were not to be chosen, they would
want to go back and consult, but I think they urge
you, and my task is to urge you to take these
designs as they are, and to move them forward
because one, Representative Boren is retiring, and
so he may not be around after November, or not
may not, he will not be around after November. And
they have a very special tie to him and his family,
sort of significant to them that Representative Boren
is the one who is moving this forward.
Also, I was told to specifically pass on to you, in
2008 when the legislation was finally passed, the
recognition for the Code Talkers Act, there were five
living children of Choctaw Code Talkers, there are
now two. We would like to have those two people
see this done. The Code Talkers themselves are
long gone from Choctaw, but we have children who
would love to see this done in their lifetime.
I as an attorney on behalf of the Choctaw Nation
and a bunch of other tribal nations around the
country, we have to wait for a while for whole lot of
things, a whole lot of things. Like to be Indian is to
be patient, quite frankly. That's what I talk with my
clients about all the time, and amongst my own
people back home.
We have an act that is now four years old, and we
would like to see this done with Representative
Boren in office if at all possible, or soon thereafter,
and also on behalf of the two living children before
anyone else passes away. We urge you push
forward with these designs as they are, and as
they've been chosen by the nation unanimously.
That's sort of what I really wanted to stress to you
this morning on behalf of the Choctaw Nation of
Oklahoma, and if there are any questions I will try
my best to answer or respond to anything.
Chair Marks: Any questions?
Mr. Scarinci: Can I just say, counsel, you did an
excellent job in representing the position of your

75
client. And I take independently of that, I kind of
picked out those two designs, as well. So, thank you
for the explanation. Well done.
Chair Marks: Any others? Heidi.
Ms. Wastweet: I have a minor question. On the
reverse, when I first saw this I didn't understand
that that was smoke, so if we take some liberties in
the sculpting department to make that look more
like smoke do you feel like that's going to stir up
any issues?
Mr. Evans: It might. It might because this is taken
from the nation's seal itself, so that might be seen
as an affront to the -Ms. Wastweet: So, they want to see it depicted
exactly as this even if it doesn't really look like
smoke. Okay. Thank you.
Chair Marks: Others? Thank you very much.
(Applause.)
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. We're going on to the Osage
Nation and we don't have any representatives here.
The two designs for the obverse are essentially the
same one with the barbed wire and one without.
And the preference of the tribe is design number
one. The CFA felt that the preference -- their
preference was number two. They felt that the
barbed wire would not represent well on the medal,
but that was just their comments at the meeting.
So, essentially, you have the designs here for the
obverse with the only difference being the barbed
wire which is a visceral symbol of the threat to the
soldier while serving.
Reverse we have essentially one design here to look
at which is basically their symbol with some of the
inscriptions and inscriptions being the Act of
Congress 2008, World War I and World War II. So,
that's for the Osage Nation.

76
Mr. Olson: Excuse me, Ron. Didn't we just see a
design that looked almost exactly like this our last
meeting. That wasn't this tribe, was it?
Ms. Wastweet: It is the same design, different tribe.
Mr. Jansen: We're recycling an obverse.
Mr. Olson: Yes. Why would we do that?
Mr. Harrigal: A very strong preference of the tribe,
even though we told them that we'd like to do more
representative of their tribe, they gravitated and
said no, this is what we want.
Mr. Olson: So, it's okay with them. I just wanted to
make sure that -Mr. Harrigal: Yes, it was their preference.
Mr. Olson: Okay.
Mr. Harrigal: And then we are trying -- as I said
before in our Admin meeting, we're trying to get
more and more options on the table, but we're
hearing a lot of no, this is what we want type of
situation. And understand what all that's about.
Mr. Jansen: So, the tribe chose obverse two.
Mr. Harrigal: The tribe chose one, the CFA itself -Mr. Jansen: But CFA chose -- didn't CFA choose one
when it was presented before.
Mr. Olson: They did.
Ms. Wastweet: Yes.
Mr. Scarinci: Change in membership. What did we
choose?
Ms. Wastweet: We chose one.
Mr. Harrigal: The barbed wire.
Mr. Scarinci: We went with the barbed wire?

77
Ms. Wastweet: Yes.
Mr. Harrigal: Yes. And I also mentioned that we
have had other coins represented with barbed wire
that came on fairly well. One was World War II
commemorative, and another, of course, I
believe one of our state quarters -Mr. Scarinci: It's a three-inch medal, too, so it will
show up.
Mr. Harrigal: We've had designs with it in it, and we
can sign it, but I'm taking in the Committee's
recommendation. And they actually made -- their
selection.
Mr. Scarinci: Did they -- I'm sorry. Did the CFA say
anything about -- I mean, it seems if you choose
the barbed wire for one and not the barbed wire for
two, somebody is going to interpret that in some
way. Did the CFA -Mr. Harrigal: I did not bring that to their attention
at that point in time.
Mr. Scarinci: Oh, so they didn't know, they didn't
remember.
Mr. Harrigal: Some of the committee members were
not present at the other meeting.
Mr. Scarinci: Okay.
Mr. Harrigal: But they did have a full complement
this time.
Mr. Scarinci: Okay.
Mr. Harrigal: It was not brought to their attention.
Mr. Scarinci: Okay, thank you.
Chair Marks: Any other questions on Osage? Okay,
go ahead.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. And we are now going on to the
Pawnee nation, and we have Mr. Charles A. Lone

78
Chief, Jr., Vice President of the Pawnee Nation who
is here to speak on behalf of them.
Mr. Lone Chief: Good afternoon, everybody. I want
to say good morning. I have a flag here, the
Pawnee Nation flag, and I'm going to have copies of
this run off and passed out this afternoon, and it
describes everything about our tribe. And that will
save a lot of time. I won't have to read it to you like
you're little children and so forth. So, I'm glad
everybody is smiling, it kind of breaks the ice.
In our language we say -(Pawnee language.)
Mr. Lone Chief: So, in essence, what I said was
hello friends, how are you? I hope you're fine. I like
you very much, and thank you very much for
allowing me to be here.
I'll go on with the one with the wolf.
Mr. Harrigal: That would be number three.
Mr. Lone Chief: I don't know the number, sir.
Mr. Harrigal: It's three.
Mr. Lone Chief: Yes, three. You got me. To explain
that, they've got a name Men of Men. That's what
we consider ourselves. We didn't consider ourselves
any less than. And the wolf symbolizes what other
tribes refer to as wolves, who are cunning and have
courage. The cedar that you see on each side, the
red cedar boughs, which when we burn cedar, we
believe that smoke goes to the heavenly father with
our prayers. Also, use that on a sacred ceremony,
we use it on heating ceremonies where we smoke
people off that things will be good, we smoke them
off with the eagle fan, and go all the way down in
front, all the way down in back. And that's to more
or less cleanse them of anything, and certainly pray
for the healing, if they need any type of healing.
The pipe symbolizes the element of peace that you

79
see on the bottom, and on the other hand the axe
symbolizes the element of war. So, those go hand in
hand, much like Lyle explained earlier.
The star that you see at the top we put a lot of
emphasis on the morning star because that ties in
with our religion, and actually the creation of man.
And I'll go in a little depth on that. If you go to
Adler Planetarium they have an explanation of that,
our star chart up there which was in one of our
sacred bundles, Black Meteorite bundle, and it used
to be on display at the museum. And we requested
that they remove it because of the religious impact.
We felt like it should be kept in the bundle. I have
heard that it was taken over to the Adler
Planetarium, but I don't think that's true.
On the other side, I'll get this in writing, obverse
two. You see the Code Talker there. You'll notice
that the hair on the sides have been shaved off, and
we don't call these mohawks. Way back there is
Pawnee type, and actually they used buffalo fat to
make it like styling gel, and it actually curved
upward like a horn. And the old timers, that's what
they wore.
Going on beyond that, as far as the code goes, they
could use -- well, it depended on where they were
and who they were talking with. We had Code
Talkers in World War I who were over in France, of
course, and were part of the Rainbow Division. And
then in World War II, we had Code Talkers both in
Europe, the European theater, in France and in
Northern Africa, Sicily and right on up through Italy.
Matter of fact, the individual that designed our flag
was Brummet Echo Hawk, which was a cousin of
Larry Echo Hawk. And I think most of you know who
Larry was, he was Assistant to the Secretary of
Interior. And, of course, it shows the wolf, the
American flag, it should be the other way here.
Okay. All these arrowheads symbolize every conflict
we've been involved with since going back to the
Spanish-American War, and World War I, World War

80
II, Korea, Vietnam, and then the two involved in
Iraq and Afghanistan. And, of course, we've always
been loyal to the United States.
The Pawnees never warred against the United
States. In 1800, about 1830, one of our leading
chiefs, Pitalesharo, which translated means Man
Chief, went to Washington to meet with the Great
White Father, as he was referred to back then. And
when he came back and reported to the tribe, he
said the white people are just like grass. He said
there's no way that we could survive against those
numbers, so it was logical that they tried to -- well,
they just never did have any problem with whites.
Our problem was when they had the California trail,
Oregon trail, the Mormon trail, passed right through
the heart of the Pawnee country.
In Nebraska at that time we controlled about 23-1/2
million acres, nearly the whole state of Nebraska.
There were a few tribes on the fringe areas and
northwest, the Sioux in the southeast, the Omahas,
the Caws were primarily the two that were down in
that area. Ponchas were up north, north of the
Niobrara River. So, that kind of gives you an idea.
Now, we numbered about anywhere from 10-12,000
at that time. By the time disease and wars with the
Sioux, Cheyenne, Arapaho and so forth, our
numbers kept going down. We were removed from
Nebraska starting in about 1871 through 1875 was
the final ones that came down. After they got to the
reserve in Oklahoma, the land that we purchased
from the Cherokees, which is mostly Pawnee County
now, disease struck again, cholera, and our
numbers went down to 600. So, our gene pool is
really -- a lot of us tease each other because hey,
we're related to one another. You know, when you
have a gene pool that small -- so, getting back to
some of the words that I presume, and I haven't
talked to the Code Talkers.
Now, my dad was on the first island that was
invaded, Guadalcanal. And a lot of people don't

81
know how severe it was at Guadalcanal. You know,
they talk about Iwo Jima, Aroma, and Peleliu and
some of those, but my father told me that they
were cut off by the Japanese Navy, and they had to
subsist in dried Japanese rations, dried fish, rice,
and he said about the only thing that was good was
the sake left they behind. But he went up the
complete Solomon chain, and I remember he made
a comment one time. He said we captured 11
Japanese on one of the islands, and we load them
up on the C47, the Marines flew them back to
Guadalcanal. And he radioed back one of the
Pawnees back there on Guadalcanal and said what
information did you get out of the Japanese? He
said, I don't remember seeing any Japanese so they
must have flown them someplace else.
Some of the words that could have been used,
jadada, enemy. Dadahah, buffalo, would be for a
large thing like a tank, for instance. Nekacots, an
eagle, would be like a big type of airplane, and a
smaller airplane would have been kidowoocuchoo,
which means a hawk, kidawka would be like a rifle,
kidawkacuchoo would be like a large rifle like a
canon. So, those are just some examples that those
words could have been used by the Code Talkers.
And getting back, Robert Echo Hawk was with the
45th Division, he went from North Africa to Sicily, to
Salerno, what was the other -- Angio. Brummet and
I were good friends. He recommended me to go to
see the Art Institute. A great artist, and he told me
that at Salerno the Germans were zeroed in with
the canon and machine gun fire and he said you
could not step on that beach without stepping on a
body. It was that brutal.
So, I was good friends also with Charles Tribetty.
Matter of fact, I've done two tours with him. And
Charles told me -- I asked him a question one time.
I said, "What was the toughest thing that you had
to deal with as a Code Talker?" And he said, "Once
we got right across the border from France before
we went into Germany," he said, "we shot a

82
German soldier. We went over, rolled him over, and
it was a 14-year old kid." He said, "That was
probably the hardest thing I had to deal with, taking
a young man's life."
We don't know all the things that they had to deal
with, but I give credit to all the Code Talkers, each
and every one of every tribe that ever served as a
Code Talker. Without them could you imagine the
thousands of lives that would have been lost if it
hadn't been for them. It was quite an honor for
them to be honored in such a way, and I want to
thank each and every one of you, whoever had a
part in it, that I can speak for our tribal members,
tribal council, that we're very deeply appreciative of
what -- not only what you've done for the Pawnees,
but for also all the other tribes that were
represented. And I thank the Type 2 Code Talkers,
something like 11. And, of course, Type 1 was if I've
got this right -- I didn't see it on the email that I
got, but there should have been three. That would
have been a Choctaw in World War I, the
Comanches in World War II that were in the
European theater, and the ones that were in the
Haitian theater, or the Pacific would have been, of
course, the Navajo.
I want to read something to you that I have. You
can go ahead and put -- sorry. Kevin Gover, which
is a Pawnee. He's also Assistant to the Secretary of
Interior, the Bureau of Indian Affairs. And this is
what Kevin said back in 1999.
"It's incredibly ironic that my agency, the Bureau of
Indian Affairs, dedicated itself for the first half of
this century to destroying the native languages that
proved to be so useful to our armed forces during
World War II. It's a great irony that in just two or
three generations of being in conflict with the United
States, our warriors would play such a crucial role in
the victory over this country's enemies."
My good friend, Charles Tribate, a Comanche, once
said, "As a child I was forbidden to speak my native

83
language at school. Later my country asked me to.
My language helped win the war, and that makes
me very proud."
I don't think I could say any more than what
already said of how important it was to have
Code Talkers. We owe them a lot. And I thank
for allowing these to be made, not just for
Pawnees but for the others. Any questions?

I've
the
you
the

(Applause.)
Chair Marks: Any questions?
Mr. Lone Chief: Yes, sir?
Mr. Jansen: So, your obverse choice on the front
would
be
the
portrait
or
the
kneeling
communicator?
Mr. Lone Chief: The kneeling.
Mr. Jansen: You like the kneeling communicator. All
right.
Mr. Lone Chief: I would have liked to have seen -- it
was like he was in combat without any kind of
weapon to defend himself, but the council already
decided so I'm not going to make a big issue of
that.
Ms. Stevens-Sollman: On your preference for the
reverse, I'm understanding that you like number
three?
Mr. Lone Chief: That's correct.
Ms. Stevens-Sollman: The tribe likes three, as
opposed to what represents the world on your flag.
Mr. Lone Chief: That's what the council decided on.
It's already cut and dry. I'm not going to make any
further comment on that.
Ms. Stevens-Sollman: I just want to understand.
Thank you.

84
Mr. Lone Chief: That would be like putting my neck
in a noose -(Laughter.)
Mr. Lone Chief: You know, I keep telling the
secretary down there that the President has been
out with knee surgery, Marshall Gover, our
President. And he had knee replacement surgery
May 8th. Would you believe on May 9th everything
started going wrong. And I was telling the
secretary, I said, "Have you heard any hammering
going on over there?", "Hammering? What for?" I
said, "Building the gallows."
(Laughter.)
Ms. Wastweet: Can you speak to what it is that they
like, because you mentioned the hair. You felt like in
the kneeling soldier the hair represented the true
hair style.
Mr. Lone Chief: Well, I mean, that's how some of
our old scouts and so forth wore their hair.
Ms. Wastweet: What else about that design did the
council -Mr. Lone Chief: They didn't wear fake robes like in
Dances with Wolves, no offense, guys.
(Laughter.)
Ms. Wastweet: Can you speak to what else the
council liked about that particular design?
Mr. Lone Chief: Well, it was the best of what we
looked at.
Ms. Wastweet: Was there anything that they did not
like about number one design?
Mr. Lone Chief: I don't recall them saying any
dislikes.
Ms. Wastweet: Okay.

85
Mr. Lone Chief: The thing that made a
determination on that was that it shows the radio,
so it shows the Code Talker. It doesn't really show
that much on the other ones. And it shows the time
period, the World War II helmet and the combat
boots for that time period. Yes, sir?
Mr. Everhart: Did they actually wear this hairstyle in
combat?
Mr. Lone Chief: Well, they wore both.
Ms. Wastweet: I saw something in the literature
that said that the military people said that they
wanted the depiction to be short enough to be
within military regulations.
Mr. Lone Chief: Good point.
Chair Marks: Any other questions? Thank you, sir.
Mr. Lone Chief: You're welcome. Hope you have a
good lunch.
(Applause.)
Mr. Lone Chief: And there will be some copies of
that pamphlet run off that gives a run down on
everything.
Chair Marks: Just a word on time. We've had some
scheduling changes that require us to finish at 1:30,
so we've got 45 minutes to finish off both programs
that we are looking at today, so I'm going to -Heidi, if you're ready I'm going to ask you to start
your comments on the Code Talkers. And we'll just
go around the table. And we don't have a whole lot
of designs to pick from, and the tribes have made
some strong recommendations. So, I'm anticipating
that this will be a brief discussion, but all the same,
let's have that discussion. Let's do them all. I don't
want to go around four times. Let's cover it.
Ms. Wastweet: Okay. On Cheyenne River Sioux, I
have -- I'm strongly in agreement with the stated
preference of design number two. Because of the

86
size of the medal, it can accommodate all the detail
we see here. And I see no technical issues with any
of the design.
On the reverse, also in favor of the tribe's
preference of number seven. And I hope that we will
later address removing the date. So, that one is
easy.
On the Choctaw, the preference of the tribe was
design number three. I see no issue with that
design. I think that is fine. I want to commend
design number five. I think that's a nice design, and
I like seeing the profile as I think that would
translate very well to the medal. I like the design
element. I don't think it's too busy, because the
medal is large enough, it can accommodate that
design. But I have no problem with endorsing the
preference of number three.
On the reverse I'm fine also with the preference of
design number one. On the Osage Nation, I'm still
not sure how I feel about using the same exact
design for two tribes. I think it's going to look a
little odd within the scope of the entire series to
have two of the same and everybody else different.
When we saw this the first time we were all in
agreement that we really liked the barbed wire, but
since we're doing this again I would be in favor of
design number two without the barbed wire just
because it adds a little subtle difference. It's not a
lot. I would have liked to have seen a unique
design, but I will not oppose number two.
On the reverse, I have a strong objection to this
reverse. I understand that the tribe is very distinct
in its preference that we follow their patch emblem,
but a patch emblem is not suitable for a medallion.
It doesn't -- here we see a color coated version,
excuse me, a shaded version, and it's going to be
very -- it's not going to translate well to the medal.
It's not going to be clear what that is. This is
supposed to be a feather fan. I really wish that we
could go back and draw this exact design with the

87
exact size and placement that we have, but in a
realistic fashion so we're still honoring the image of
the tribe, but in a way that's going to be readable
on the medal. I think we do a disservice to them. It
is our job to communicate to them our expertise on
making medals, and what's going to be the best
product in the end with our experience envisioning
what this is going to be. I feel very strongly about
this one.
Next, on the Pawnee I have a strong preference for
design number one. This shows a strong dignified
profile. Profiles always look great on a medal. We do
see the equipment on his back. It has the distinctive
hairstyle. If the tribe felt strongly we could perhaps
put a little fin toward the top of the forehead of the
hair to make it more like design number two, but I
think design number two is too tall in the hair to be
within the military regulations; and, therefore, not
representative of what it would actually be.
I also like design number one because it has the
arrowheads like their flag, which represents the
conflicts that they were in. I think that's an
important symbolism there. So, in design number
two, the face of this soldier is not realistic, but yet
it's stylized in a way that makes it look frankly
scary, and the body gesture is not fluid, or graceful,
or realistic. It's rather stiff and awkward, and it
looks -- I hate to say, but the drawing looks
amateurish in the body gesture. And I also am not
comfortable with the way - there's his foot just
hanging off the edge of the coin. It's cut in an
awkward place. So, even though this is the tribe's
preference, I'm going to go against that. I'm going
to -- based on my expertise and what I know of coin
making, I'm going to recommend design number
one.
On the reverse, I like the tribe preference of design
number three. I like that we've taken their imagery
and we've made it come to life. And it's very clear
that the side pieces are cedar branches and nothing
else. That's very clear, and it's very three-

88
dimensional so it utilizes the depth of a medal. I'm
really strongly in favor of that. That's it.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Heidi. Erik.
Mr. Jansen: I have in most cases honored the
request of the tribes. The exceptions to that would
be on the Choctaw Nation where we had the three
individuals, similar drawings on the rock or on the
ground transcribing the message coming through, I
think the Choctaw Nation wanted design number
three. I also like design number five. For some
reason it carries more energy to me. Design number
three, as the other two before it, are a little more
intense and a little more mind-oriented, and number
five looks like a more active individual, so I'm kind
of going to vote for both of those designs.
And the other one that's worth discussing is the
Pawnee Nation obverse one and obverse two. I feel
very much like Heidi does. I really liked the -- just
the -- and it's a bad pun but it applies, the native
intensity of that portrait. And I think it will look
great in large bronze format. I do have a question,
though, of the tribe here.
Your flag shows seven arrows. This drawing shows
eight.
Participant: Yes, there are too many arrows.
Mr. Jansen: Which one -- if we were to go with
design number one, I want to make sure at least
the number of conflicts you've been in is correctly
represented.
Mr. Lone Chief: The only thing I could think of is
possibly the added arrow would have been during
the Indian wars, you know, when they were -- we
had a battalion of scouts that were by the North
Brothers there in Nebraska that were very fluent
with the Pawnee language. And matter of fact, one
of our Pawnees won the Medal of Honor who saved
one of the officers.

89
Mr. Jansen: If it's an issue, and I don't know that it
will be, but if it's an issue I really would love to
make sure we get that right. But if the other design
is the one that's adopted, it's moot.
Mr. Lone Chief: The one that's shown on the flag
would probably be the one to go with, go right along
with the flag. It's a good point.
Mr. Jansen: That's all I have, Gary. Thank you.
Chair Marks: Okay, Michael.
Mr. Moran: As I have worked through these, I have
come to the conclusion strongly to go with what the
tribes represent as their desire, because these
medals are for them, not for us.
That being said, Gary, I agree with you, there's one
too many arrows there. But I would like to ask the
Pawnee representative to focus again on those two
medals, because that is a powerful medal for the
obverse, number one, versus number two. But it's
your call for me as to how I vote on this. How
strongly does the tribe feel in their deliberations
between one and two?
Mr. Lone Chief: That's a -Mr. Moran: It's a tough one for me to sit here and
vote on, too. Because I tell you -- I know this
committee well. You're liable to get number one
regardless of how I feel.
Mr. Lone Chief: I understand that, sir. I understand
that I can't -- I could speak for the council but I
have my own opinion. I do art work, and I can't
disagree with what was brought up by the young
lady. However, I can just go over what the council
said either. That leaves me in a tough spot, you
know. But I have to agree with you on the art work.
It's my own opinion, not the council's, that the
reference you made on the one that's there -Ms. Wastweet: You're an artist. You can see --

90
Mr. Lone Chief: Yes, I do art work. Like I said, I
went to Kansas City Art Institute years ago and I've
done a lot of portraits. We don't run -- this is art
talk. You do not run any of the art work out of the
picture. It runs your eye out of it. If you want to do
things -- and I think that it could have been a little
bit better done. I notice from the other medals, the
Choctaws with picture, head features and so forth.
And I don't know, it looks like the head -- in art
work the ear is the top of the brow to the bottom of
the nose, and if you draw a line across that thing it
-- I am just repeating what I see. And in my own
opinion I would have thought that he would have
had an M1 somewhere in there. You know, they
didn't go out without any armament. You know, the
other in the Choctaw shows or the Osage, the hand
grenade and the bayonet and so forth, prepared for
battle. I'm not trying to tell you what to do. Like I
say, it's the council's call. If you have a -- how soon
do you have to know? Do you have to know today?
Mr. Moran: You've done a fine job of answering my
question. You're going to get lynched.
Mr. Lone Chief: Pardon me?
Mr. Moran: You're going to get lynched.
Mr. Lone Chief: Well -Chair Marks: Michael, are you done?
Mr. Moran: Yes, I'm done.
Chair Marks: Before we move on, I just want to
remind the Committee, we've got 30 minutes to
wrap up everything. I hate to put us in such a
timing constraint, but that's where we are. We've
had a lot of presentation. I'm going to ask us to be
very efficient in our comments going forward here.
We need to get these items accomplished. So with
that, Donald.
Mr. Scarinci: With the exception of the last two, I'm
going with the Indian Nation's recommendations.

91
On Pawnee Nation, you were very diplomatic. You
did an excellent job discussing it, but I'm going with
obverse one because it is a superior design, and the
kind of thing I was hoping to be seeing.
On the fourth one, my inclination -- I just can't
duplicate obverses, so I just can't vote for obverse
one or obverse two knowing whether it's with
barbed wire, without barbed wire. And then if we do
one with and one without, why did we do it versus
for this one with the barbed wire, what are we
saying? Who knows? I mean, so I'm just avoiding it
by not voting for it. I wish they would have come up
with an original design. That's what we asked for. If
we had more time I'd probably ask for one more
time for the gipper to go back and come up with a
new obverse design rather than repeat the obverse
design. I'm not going to do that to you, Gary, so I'm
just going to give both obverse designs on that one
a zero because I can't support either of them.
Chair Marks: Thank you for the gift.
Mr. Scarinci: Maybe if everybody gives them a zero
they'll have to give us a new one. So, anyway,
done.
Chair Marks: Michael Olson.
Mr.
Olson:
I
completely
agree
with
the
recommendations of the tribes with similar
comments to what has been made. On the Pawnee,
I certainly agree that number one is a better design.
It's a very strong looking warrior there. It's very
nicely done especially with the arrows. I guess I'm a
little confused with how the Mint could -- if there is
an extra arrow on there how something as obvious
as that could happen, but that's neither here nor
there. I'm sure that will be corrected.
In regards to the issue on rehashing the design, this
might be discussion for a later time, but I guess I'm
not quite sure how that could happen. The design
has already been used for a nation. In my view,
there really shouldn't be any discussion, or it should

92
not even be opened up for negotiation to reuse
somebody else's design. But in the interest of
getting something done here today, that is what the
nation has indicated as their preference, so I will be
supporting their request. That's it.
Chair Marks: Jeanne.
Ms. Stevens-Sollman: And I also will support the
nation's request. In fact, when I went through these
the first time I actually chose the designs that the
nations preferred, so I feel like that was good.
The only piece that I'm a little concerned with is the
Osage Nation. And I'm sorry we don't have a
representative here. The reverse design, I have to
agree with Heidi. I thought she spoke very well to
the issue that I think we need to honor the tribal
seal. However, I didn't understand that to be a fan.
It's not shaped like fans that I am familiar with, the
feather fans. And to me when I first saw it I thought
it was a grenade, so I would hope that perhaps the
Mint if we go with this would maybe articulate that a
little better to show that it's actually feathers there,
and not something mechanical. That's my only
concern.
Chair Marks: Thank you. Michael.
Dr. Bugeja: I support the nations' choices with a
couple of small observations. Having both my alma
maters at South Dakota State, I lived there in South
Dakota. I'm very familiar with the Lakota. I've
covered the reservations in Pine Ridge. We were
just talking about Leonard Peltier, but nobody knew
at my table who Leonard Peltier was, so they know
now, and who Russell Means is and they know who
Dennis Banks is. And Oklahoma State is also my
alma mater, as well.
I want to say that I agree very much with the
Choctaw Nation's choices. And there's a design
consideration about why I agree with number three,
and do not agree with number five at all. Number
three does not have a border that conflicts with the

93
reverse of the Choctaw Nation number one. The
border on number five does conflict with the border
on number one. And, also, I think it's vitally
important to have that scribed in the native
language writing down. I think that's extraordinarily
important, and I support that very much.
I want to speak to our representative from the
Pawnee Nation. You know, I'm going to speak not
as an Oklahoma State person, or understanding the
so-called civilized tribes. I've been through all that,
and have great respect for my time in Oklahoma, as
I do in South Dakota. I lived in Tea, South Dakota,
which is a little -- it's not so little any more.
This here is breathtaking. It's a breathtaking design,
and the way you describe the history of the arrows,
I was going to buy this as a coin collector. But the
way you described the arrows, you have added
something to it. You've added a story to the design,
and that story is something I could tell and retell
based on your presentation. So, I wanted to thank
you for that presentation and urge my colleagues
strongly for obverse number one. Thank you.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. Mike.
Mr. Ross: I'm supporting the recommendations of
the nations. And on the Pawnee I hate to be a
contrarian, but I think for the Code Talkers, to
portray someone as a stoic person rather than a
person of action is doing them a disservice. And just
as a glib side remark, I think it looks like he's
standing in front of the Sears Tower. That's all I
have.
Chair Marks: Robert?
Mr. Hoge: I don't really have anything more to add,
except that I think it's a bit disappointing to see so
many designs based upon two dimensional art, the
badges, and flags, and this sort of thing. I think
there's -- if we're going with two-dimensional art,
there are traditional elements that date back into
early tribal history, beyond the time when these

94
westernized logos, and badges, and flags and all
came into existence. I'd like to see a little bit more
that is authentic.
Chair Marks: Thank you. As for myself, I'll be
supporting the recommendations of the tribe. I'll
also be lending support to obverse number one for
the Pawnee for all the reasons that have been
stated here already. So, with that I will ask
everyone to complete their tally sheets scoring
these designs. If you could pass those in to Erik,
he'll do our tally.
Meanwhile, while we're waiting for those results, I'm
going to shift us back now to the Five-Star General
discussion. And the first order of business there
would be the tally. And I'll start with the five dollar
gold. For time's sake I will be focusing on the top -the picks, if you will, or the top scorers for each
coin face.
So, on the five dollar gold we have receiving 18 of
30 possible points, design number three. This is on
obverse gold. So, that would be our recommended
design.
Mr. Weinman: How many points?
Chair Marks: Pardon?
Mr. Weinman: How many points?
Chair Marks: Eighteen. The next closest was
number five at 14. And I'll just remind everyone
that with 30 possible points to earn our
recommendation, we have to have 50 percent plus
one, so that would be 16. So, this is the only one
that qualifies for our recommendation.
On reverse, on the gold reverse we actually did not
accomplish the threshold of 16. The highest scoring
design at 10 points was number four. Number four
which would be the lamp, so unless there's any
further motion to make that our recommendation,
that would go to the secretary with an indication

95
that was our top scorer, but did not receive our
recommendation.
Mr. Olson: I move that that be considered as the
reverse.
Mr. Jansen: Second.
Chair Marks: Who seconded, Erik? That's number
four reverse.
Mr. Jansen: Yes, I think we need to be a little more
offensive. By that I mean asserting of a choice
because we're bucking the -- kind of the precast
selection process.
Chair Marks: Okay.
Mr. Jansen: It's a -Chair Marks: I know. It's been moved and seconded
to make number four -- indicate number four as our
recommended design for the gold coin. I'll dispense
with any further discussion. Let's vote on the
motion. All those in favor please raise your hand.
We have one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. All
those opposed raise your hand please. One, I don't
have everyone. Two abstentions.
Participant: I'm abstaining, yes. This is just -Chair Marks: Okay, so that motion carries. On the
silver one dollar coin obverse we have 18 points for
design number six. That was the recommendation
of the College. For the reverse we have design
number six, which I believe is the eagle. And that
was with 18 points.
And then on the clad half dollar on the obverse we
did not reach our threshold of 16. The highest score
was 10 to design number six. So, unless there's a
motion to make that our recommendation, it would
go forward as our highest scorer but not our
recommendation.
Mr. Jansen: And you're doing silver right now,

96
obverse?
Chair Marks: No, this is the clad half dollar.
Mr. Jansen: Obverse.
Chair Marks: Obverse.
Mr. Olson: Wait. The obverse with the clad half
dollar was number six?
Chair Marks: Yes. This one that's up on the screen
with 10. The next score was 9 points to number
three.
Mr. Olson: Would there be additional support for
number six if we asked the artist to possibly put
some military hardware on those two gentlemen?
Mr. Jansen: It's going to screw up the balance. If he
does hats, it's history. He'd have to do it on collars
and things.
Chair Marks: This may be a case where this is the
best we can do. I hate to say that, but -Mr. Olson: Well, I guess I would move that this be
the consideration.
Chair Marks: The recommendation?
Mr. Olson: Right.
Chair Marks: Is there a second to make this our
formal recommendation?
Mr. Jansen: Second.
Chair Marks: Erik seconded. So, the motion is to
make obverse number six on the half dollar our
recommended choice. All those in favor please raise
your hand. One, two, three, four. All those
opposed? One, two, three, four, five, and one
abstention. That motion fails 4-5, so that'll go
forward with 10 votes as our highest score.
On the reverse for the clad half dollar we didn't get

97
our threshold but almost, 15 points were assigned
to number seven.
Mr. Olson: Move to recommend.
Mr. Ross: Second.
Chair Marks: Who seconded?
Mr. Ross: I did.
Chair Marks: Number seven reverse for the half.
Okay, all those in favor raise your hand, please.
One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight.
Opposed? Two. That motion carries 8-2. Okay.
That's the balance of the designs.
Participant: Gary, could you give us the addition -was there -- the silver obverse, could you give us
what was in second place?
Chair Marks: Silver obverse was 18.
Participant: Eighteen for six. Was there a second
place?
Chair Marks: The second highest was number four
with 10 points.
Participant: Thank you.
Mr. Scarinci: And, Gary, what's the highest vote you
could get if -- what was the high number?
Chair Marks: The highest possible is 30.
Mr. Scarinci: Thirty.
Mr. Jansen: Twenty-seven because you put zero on
everything.
Chair Marks: Yes. Okay. Are there any more
questions on that program? If there aren't, then we
are done with that.
At this point, Erik, are you still -- you're almost
there?

98
Mr. Jansen: I'm almost there. Yes, thank you. That
was the one I was missing.
Chair Marks: So, we'll pause the proceeding here
just briefly and we'll -Mr. Moran: Can we have a point of order here,
Gary?
Chair Marks: Yes, sir.
Mr. Moran: Let the record show we did work
through lunch.
Chair Marks: Yes, we are working through lunch.
Mr. Jansen: Trying to get a better deal out of travel?
Mr. Moran: No, it's dragging me back.
Chair Marks: That's fine. Erik, do you have a whole
lot more to go?
Mr. Jansen: Two.
Chair Marks: Two, okay. We're almost there, folks. I
apologize for the pause.
Mr. Jansen: I don't think there any surprises. It
looks like Pawnee obverse one is the only one that's
going to buck the trend.
Chair Marks: Okay. So, if the Committee -- let me
ask you this, Erik, if the Committee wanted to move
forward with the Cheyenne River potential motion
on the date, are you seeing that that design -Mr. Jansen: Oh, yes, that's a no brainer, go for it.
Yes, it's done.
Chair Marks: Okay. Is there a -- I'm sensing from
our discussion that there was a desire for a motion
to recommend removing the 1868 date from
reverse number seven.
Ms. Wastweet: I will make that motion.

99
Mr. Ross: Second.
Chair Marks: I'll recognize Mike Ross on that. Okay.
All those in favor please raise your hand. It's
unanimous. Thank you. The other was -Mr. Jansen: Gary, I think you're going to have to
address the number of arrows on the Pawnee
Nation.
Chair Marks: Yes, that's the next one up. I've
actually kind of sketched that one out.
Mr. Jansen: I'm sorry to not be fast enough here.
Chair Marks: Can we go to the Pawnee design? So,
Erik, are you telling us that -Mr. Jansen: Yes, we're going to choose number one.
Chair Marks: Okay. In that case we need to make
sure that the number of arrows is correct. There's
eight shown now. I understand there needs to be
seven, so if I'm correct is there a motion to that
regard?
Mr. Olson: Oh, yes.
Chair Marks: Okay, Mike Olson and Michael Moran is
a second. All those in favor. All right. Mike Ross, are
you -Mr. Ross: Seven arrows.
Chair Marks: Seven arrows.
Mr. Ross: There's been an issue to be raised.
Chair Marks: Okay.
Mr. Ross: By going with the seven arrows they're
representing wars that are post World War II wars.
Have there been Code Talkers in the post World War
II wars?
Ms. Stevens-Sollman: No, not Code Talkers.

100
Participant: It's a symbol of the tribe.
Ms. Stevens-Sollman: It's a symbol. I understand
that these were conflicts that the Pawnee Nation
were involved in. I don't know if it was -Chair Marks: There's seven arrows on their flag.
Ms. Stevens-Sollman: Seven arrows on their flag.
Mr. Ross: Veterans of seven wars. Veterans of
seven wars that are honored -- just to make sure
we know what we're doing. We're honoring veterans
of seven wars, but the medal is for the Code
Talkers.
Ms. Stevens-Sollman: Yes.
Mr. Ross: So, there is a discrepancy between arrows
and honorees.
Mr. Olson: I think the fact that it's on their flag
probably lends credence to how many arrows -(Simultaneous speaking.)
Chair Marks: The seven arrows is a tribal symbol.
Mr. Ross: That will change -Ms. Stevens-Sollman: Yes. This is the medal now.
Chair Marks: So, I have nine votes in favor of the
seven arrows. Did you -- how do you want to -Mr. Ross: I'm now concerned, and I'm going to vote
against it.
Chair Marks: You're voting what?
Mr. Ross: I don't know. I'm not C-- I have to think
about this. It complicates it. I'm going to abstain.
Chair Marks: You're abstaining. Okay. That motion
passes.
Mr. Harrigal: I just want to make a note, our

101
instructions, what we talked about from prior
meetings about resetting the obverse and reverse
design concepts. We talked about the obverse
designs represent the Code Talker's dedication to
military service, so that was our instructions going
forward. Now that, of course, remains within the
Committee's jurisdiction of recommendations, but
that has been the charter that we've been going
forward with.
Chair Marks: Okay, thank you. Okay. Do we have -Mr. Jansen: Very close.
Chair Marks: We're almost there, folks.
Mr. Jansen: Almost there.
Chair Marks: We've cleared all of our motions.
Mr. Jansen: Going as quick as I can. I'm going to
add those two columns. She's got the Cheyenne
River there, which is the first set, Gary.
Chair Marks: Okay. As soon as you guys total a
sheet, I'll take it. Can I take that? Okay. Did you -okay. On the Cheyenne River Sioux obverse
number two was selected with 27 of 30 votes. And
reverse number seven was selected with 29 of 30
possible points.
I've just been handed Choctaw
number three was selected with
Obverse five received five votes.
one for the Choctaw received 29 of

Nation, obverse
28 of 30 votes.
Reverse number
30 votes.

Moving on to the Osage obverse number one
received 22 out of a possible 30. And reverse
number one, and only reverse offered received 18
of 30.
And then on the Pawnee obverse number one
received 24 of 30 points, and reverse -- I'm sorry,
obverse. Did I say obverse? And obverse number
two received nine. So, 24-9 on that selection. And

102
then on the reverse, reverse number three received
26 of 30. So, that is -- that concludes the tally for
the Code Talkers.
So, having completed the business on our agenda, I
want to thank every one -Mr. Lone Chief: Gary?
Chair Marks: Yes, sir?
Mr. Lone Chief: I need to make a comment. It came
up in our council meetings when we were looking at
those, and I remember one of the council members
made a comment, the old scouts wore that type of
mannerism of hair, but during World War II and
World War I they wore those specific hard hats, the
helmets. And I know enough about Roberts Rules
requirements and seeking that you might want to
reconsider. I don't know who they researched with
to come up with the Pawnee style having it way
back. That's not necessarily in World War I and
World War II. I don't recall any of those individuals
that I grew up with who wore that particular
hairstyle back then. Some of the elders may have in
World War I, and then those photos in World War II,
so I have don't know where they came up with the
drawings. I don't know what research was there and
so forth. I don't know if it's too late to redo, or you
know -- I just want to get that point across in all
aspects.
Ms. Wastweet: What are you suggesting would be
redone?
Mr. Fishburn: He's suggesting that the hairstyle
from obverse number two could be translated into
the obverse number one.
Mr. Lone Chief: Obverse number two.
Mr. Fishburn: To the hairstyle on the one on the
right, which is the traditional hairstyle. Would you
be suggesting that that be put into the other one?

103
Mr. Lone Chief: I'm not talking about either of those
hairstyles. As I look at the others, the Choctaw and
the Sioux, I mean, they have their typical gear on,
the helmets of that time period. And I -- Code
Talkers medals way back during the Indian War so
that would be given more -- we just had -- that's
the only thing we had to go on. That was sent to us
to choose from. We didn't see anything like the
other tribes had, like the Osages or the Choctaws,
or even the Sioux. The Sioux had the particular
hardware. So, I don't like to throw a monkey
wrench into anything, and I don't even know if it's
too late to redo or whatever.
Chair Marks: You know, at this point whether
there's time to redo is really beyond the knowledge
of this Committee. I would suggest that the Mint
staff confer with the tribal representatives and try to
navigate through that issue.
Mr. Lone Chief: Well, what I'm going to do if it's
okay with you, I have those drawings, of the others,
and I'll just present that to the council and see if
they want to just go ahead and go with it. We don't
want to wait forever to get these, but I don't want
to work a hardship on any of you either. But if we
have to go into it, then I guess -- I just want it to
be correct.
Chair Marks: I think the best way to -Mr. Lone Chief: Like I said, I might hear more
hammering down there with the gallows.
Chair Marks: I'd suggest that the staff and the tribe
work on that issue. And if something needs to come
back to us, I know that that will happen. Did
someone -Mr. Harrigal: Gary, just a point of clarification. We
have two committees we consult with, the CFA,
Commission of Fine Arts, and also the CCAC, which
is this committee. The Director of the Mint or Acting
Director takes into account the suggestions from
both committees and also the comments that are

104
made from both committees go to the liaison, which
can be taken into account on their preference. And
all that data goes to the Director of the Mint for
formulation of a recommendation that the Secretary
of the Treasury would approve or amend, as
necessary. So, there is a point of deliberation that
we go through to get to the final recommendation.
And I just wanted that to be put on the record so
people understand that.
Conclude Meeting
Chair Marks: All right. Thank you very much. And as
we close, I want to give a special thanks to the staff
for all the work that went into preparing all that
goes into these meetings. And I want to thank the
representatives who came and honored us with their
presentations and imparted their knowledge about
their respective subject matters, be it the generals
or the tribes. And I wish you all safe travels. Pardon
me?
Ms. Stevens-Sollman: Before we end, do we have a
date for our next meeting in September?
Chair Marks: Yes, we discussed that at the Admin
meeting. It's kind of up in the air. We're probably
looking at September.
Ms. Stevens-Sollman: Okay. So, we don't know.
Chair Marks: So, if there's nothing else, I adjourn
the meeting.
(Whereupon, the proceedings went off the record at
1:27 p.m.)