Full text of Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meetings, Recommendations, and Minutes : Meeting, June 25, 2013 : Transcript

The full text on this page is automatically extracted from the file linked above and may contain errors and inconsistencies.

1
United States Mint
Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee
Meeting
Tuesday,
June 25, 2013
The Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee met in the
2nd Floor Conference Room A at the United States
Mint, 801 9th Street N.W., Washington, D.C., at
9:30 a.m., Gary Marks, Chair pro tempore,
presiding

2
CCAC Members Present:
Gary Marks, Chair pro tempore
Michael Bugeja
Erik Jansen
Michael Moran
Michael Olson
Donald Scarinci
Jeanne Stevens-Sollman
Thomas Uram
Heidi Wastweet
United States Mint Staff Present:
Steve Antonucci
Betty Birdsong
Don Everhart
Joe Menna
Bill Norton
Leslie Schwager
April Stafford
Greg Weinman
Also Present:
Lewis Johnson, Seminole Nation
Robert Mann, Executive Director for Heritage
Preservation, Ho-Chunk Nation

3
Contents
Welcome and Call to Order

5

Review and Discuss Candidate Designs for the Code
Talker Recognition Congressional Medal Program 6
Review and Discuss Design Direction for the 2015
America the Beautiful Quarters Program
73
Adjourn

97

4
Proceedings
(9:53 am)
Mr. Weinman: We can go on the record now. Just
as a quick housekeeping measure, we have a
situation that is not uncommon; it is just a technical
glitch. At the moment there is technically no chair
of the CCAC, although a nomination has been sent
up in the proper course of the operating procedures.
It has not been finalized. For all I know, it could be
finalized during this meeting.
But as a result,
Gary's current term as Chairman has expired and
reappointment has not yet been executed.
Accordingly, I am going to yield to the senior
member of the CCAC, who I believe has a motion.
And that would be Donald Scarinci.
Member Scarinci: I would like to nominate Gary
Marks to be chair of the meeting pro tem until the
Secretary decides.
Member Stevens-Sollman: I'll second the motion.
Chair Marks: Okay, we have a motion on the table.
It has been moved and seconded to have me act as
the chairman pro tem for this meeting. Is there any
discussion on that motion?
Well I will thank you for the motion and, as always,
it is my pleasure to serve all of you and I just
appreciate your confidence in me.
With that, all those in favor please say aye.
(Chorus of aye.)
Chair Marks: Opposed?
(No audible response.)
Chair Marks: Thank you very much.
Mr. Weinman:
order.

Now you can call the meeting to

5
Welcome and Call to Order
Chair Marks:
With that, I guess I will -- the
meeting is already in session but we will now go
down to the first item on the agenda, which is
discussion of the letter and minutes from the
previous meetings. The letters from the April 19th
meeting are in your packet. The minutes of April
19th have been distributed to you in revised form
here at the table. I was contacted by Mr. Olson
prior to this meeting, asking that some comments
about Lou Hoover be added to the original minutes
that were distributed in the packet.
So I did
undertake to make that a change to the minutes. It
is all stuff that happened in the meeting anyway.
So just a little more exhaustive coverage of the
meeting through the minutes.
And then also, unfortunately, I just discovered last
night there is an error in the minutes, even the ones
that you were just handed. If you look at item two
on the agenda -- or on the minutes for April 19th, it
refers to March 11, 2012. That should read 2013.
So when I take a motion to approve the minutes,
we will need to do so as corrected.
And then also there are minutes from our telephonic
meeting from May 30th. And I have no changes for
those at this point in time. Are there any other
comments or changes for the minutes?
Member Olson: Move to approve.
Member Moran: Second.
Chair Marks: Would that be on both sets?
Member Olson: Yes.
Chair Marks:
Okay, so we have a motion to
approve the amended minutes of April 19th and the
minutes as presented for May 30th. All those in
favor, please say aye.
(Chorus of aye.)

6
Chair Marks: Opposed?
(No audible response.)
Chair Marks: The motion carries. Thank you very
much.
Review and Discuss Candidate Designs for the Code
Talker Recognition Congressional Medal Program
That takes us down to the review and discussion of
candidate designs for the Code Talker Recognition
Congressional Gold Medal Program. April Stafford.
Ms. Stafford: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
First I would like to introduce Betty Birdsong who
has expertly managed this program through fruition
and ask her to introduce our guests. We are very
fortunate to have two tribes' representatives with
us. So I will ask Betty to introduce them now.
Ms. Birdsong: Good morning, everyone. We have
Mr. Robert Mann, who is here from Ho-Chunk
Nation. And we also have Mr. Lewis Johnson, who
is here from Seminole Nation.
Ms. Stafford: And when we get to discuss those
designs, we will have our guests address the
committee.
So we are going to be covering fort Peck Assiniboine
and Sioux Tribes, Cherokee Nation, Ho Chunk
Nation, Meskwaki Nation Sac and Fox, Oglala Sioux
Tribe, Seminole Nation, and Yankton Sioux.
So for background on the program, it is Public Law
110-420 that authorizes the Secretary of the
Treasury to strike congressional medals to recognize
the dedication and valor of Native American Code
Talkers to the United States Armed Services during
both World Wars I and II.
Unique gold medals will be struck for each tribe that
had a member who served as a code talker. Silver
duplicate medals will be presented to the specific

7
code talkers themselves or their next of kin. And
bronze medals will be struck and made available for
sale to the public.
Background on the process. It was late January
2013 that we received from the Secretary of
Defense an updated list of the Native American code
talkers who served. The list was organized by tribal
affiliation and the number of tribes has grown from
25 to 32.
The Department of Defense designated the U.S.
Army Center of Military History as our liaison and
the U.S. Army Center of Military History just
recently completed their review of the seven
candidate designs that we are going to be
discussing. The designs themselves don't yet have
these modifications incorporated but they are slight,
and so we can discuss them as we review the
designs. This also applies to coinability. We have
comments from our experts and we can speak to
them as we review the designs that they pertain to.
The design parameters for this program, the
obverse designs represent, of course, the code
talkers' dedication to military service, while the
reverse designs feature iconic symbols or elements
that are unique to that tribe. It can include, for
example their tribal seal or selected elements from
their seal.
For inscriptions, there are no required inscriptions
but for design consistency, the obverse designs
include the tribe's name, Code Talkers as an
inscription, and, if desired, a language unique to the
tribe. While the reverse inscriptions include World
War I and/or II as applicable and Act of Congress
2008.
So if it is agreeable, we will start with Fort Peck
Assiniboine and Sioux Tribes from Montana. First
the obverse designs.
The obverse designs feature the elements of the
infantry
helmet
and
radio
communications

8
equipment utilized by the Assiniboine Sioux code
talkers in North Africa.
In design five, you will see the artist incorporated
characters to symbolize the code signals.
The
designs are all inscribed with Fort Peck Assiniboine
and Sioux Tribes and code talkers.
The first design incorporates a feather; the second a
Plains Indian dance whip, which is given by the
Assiniboine and Sioux Tribes to warriors who have
gone on the path of war and returned. And the
fourth includes an elder warrior.
The Fort Peck Assiniboine and Sioux tribes served in
B Company, First Battalion, 163rd Infantry
Regiment, 41st Infantry Division. So this is obverse
one. This is the obverse that is preferred by the
tribe and also by CFA. Obverse two, three, four,
and five.
Shall I go on to the reverse?
Chair Marks: Yes, please.
Ms. Stafford: Okay, the reverse designs feature an
outline of the Fort Peck Indian Reservation, which is
a buffalo outlined by rivers and creeks, two eagle
staffs, a Plains Indian dance whip, and the 41st
Infantry Division patch.
Design one incorporates the Indian dance whip and
designs one, three, and four incorporate the division
patch, which the warm mothers and wives of B
Company soldiers made, they made beaded
versions of the patch and affixed it to the code
talkers' uniforms upon their return. The designs are
inscribed with World War II, Act of Congress 2008,
and Company B 163rd Infantry Regiment.
These are reverse designs one, two, three, which is
the tribe's preference, and four, which the CFA
noted as their preference.
Mr. Chairman, would you like to stop for discussion

9
or shall I -Chair Marks: No, April. Let's go ahead and go
through the entire series.
And then we, as a
committee, will deal just once with everything.
Ms. Stafford:
Okay.
So we will move on to
Cherokee Nation from Oklahoma.
The obverse
designs feature Cherokee Nation Code Talkers
communicating on the field phone using binoculars
and writing in their language. They are inscribed
Cherokee Nation and Code Talkers in Cherokee
syllabary and English.
So we have obverse designs one, two, three, four,
and five. Here I will note that the tribe did not
submit a preference but the CFA noted obverse five
as theirs.
Going on to the reverse designs, they are variations
of the Cherokee Nation seal. The seven-pointed
star represents the traditional seven clans of
Cherokee, which are the Bird, Wild Potato, Deer,
Long-Hair, Blue, Paint, and Wolf Clans. The wreath
of leaves and acorns represent the sacred fire of the
Cherokee and they are inscribed with World War I,
World War II, and Act of Congress 2008.
So we have reverse designs one, which is the CFA's
preference, two, three, the tribe's preference, four,
and five. And that sums up Cherokee Nation.
Moving on to Ho-Chunk Nation from Wisconsin. I
would like to invite Mr. Robert Mann, who is
Executive Director of Heritage Preservation to
address the committee.
Mr. Mann?
Mr. Mann: Any particular place?
Ms. Stafford: Where you are comfortable.
Mr. Mann: Okay. I want to speak a little bit in my
native tongue.
(Speaks in Native American
language.)

10
What I was saying was I greet each and every one
of you and I am really glad to see each one of you
today. That is just part of our greeting to be a little
polite.
I want to talk about our history a little bit.
Chunk Nation is one of 11 tribes in the
Wisconsin.
We were formerly known
Winnebago, which is documented through
code talkers at that time.

The HoState of
as the
different

The Ho-Chunk Nation is celebrating its 50th
anniversary of being a federally-recognized tribe.
We just had our celebration last Saturday. In 1963,
the U.S. government formally recognized our tribe.
And we were, at that time, then known as the
Wisconsin Winnebago Business Committee. That is
what we became federally recognized. And then in
1993, we became -- we wrote a constitution and
changed our name to what we call ourselves, which
is Ho-Chunk. So we are now known as the HoChunk nation since 1993.
I want to talk a little bit about our warriors, their
accomplishments. It is quite an extensive history.
Like I say, today is a very special day. I am
honored and pleased to be here to speak on all
these warriors. Most of them are deceased now and
I am really honored to speak on their behalf.
In 1923, there was a gentleman by the name of
Paul Radin and he grew up around the Ho-Chunk
people. And he became to know our people very
well and he wrote a book. And in his book he
wrote, "The life of a warrior was the ideal toward
which all men strove. It not only satisfied certain
emotional needs but it was so inextricably
interwoven with social standing in the community
and with the prestige that the Winnebago or HoChunk life is unthinkable without it." This is as true
today as it was written then.
Warriors in our tribe earn certain rights, which make
them invaluable within our society. It is customary
among the Ho-Chunk people to give high honors to

11
their warriors. Each spring we celebrate our tribal
warriors with a powwow over the Memorial Day
weekend. Ho-Chunk that have gone into the spirit
world are honored by raising their burial flags.
Whether they died on the battlefield or peacetime, it
doesn't make a difference. Their decision to enter
into military to fight to defend our country is what
they are recognized for.
Oral tradition and
documented sources show that the Ho-Chunk
warriors have fought in more major wars and
skirmishes since 1650.
Before the coming of the white man and during the
American Colonial Period, intertribal warfare was
common. During the American Revolution, the HoChunk fought on the side of the British. With the
opening of the Northwest Passage, westward
encroachment began but the Ho-Chunk remained
loyal to the British and fought with them during the
War of 1812.
In 1830, the Indian Removal Act was passed. Even
after the U.S. Government removed the Ho-Chunk
and other tribes onto reservations and disrupted
their traditional cultural practices, the Ho-Chunk
people maintained most of their warrior traditions.
In spite of their removals, Ho-Chunk enlisted in the
Civil War, joining regiments from Nebraska,
Minnesota, as well as Wisconsin.
And it is
documented in stories in 1863, 12 young HoChunks joined the Wisconsin Volunteers. They were
told they were going to go fight in a great war.
After a few weeks of training, they departed and
arrived at the place they were going to fight. The
fighting began.
And after three days of heavy
fighting, many men were killed or wounded. They
thought this must be the war that they were asked
to fight in.
Years later someone asked them where they fought.
They replied it was a place they called Gettysburg.
The 20th Century brought with it two World Wars
and numerous other international crises and

12
conflicts. Ho-Chunk warriors served proudly and
sacrificed and gave their lives during World War I,
World War II, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War/ Desert
Storm, Iraq, and Afghanistan.
In World War I in 1917, 26 Wisconsin Winnebago
men volunteered at Mauston, Wisconsin. They were
assigned to the 128th Infantry, Company D, the
32nd Red Arrow Division.
Everybody is very
familiar with the Red Arrow Division. It rose to
fame by piercing like an arrow through the most
well-fortified
enemy
fortifications
called
the
Hindenburg Line. Its fall led to the ultimate victory
in World War I, but this fame came at a high price.
During an intense battle on August 5, 1918, two HoChunks gave their lives. It was Foster Decorah and
his son, Robert Decorah. Foster was well beyond
the age of enlisting. He was 40 years of age at the
time when he enlisted and his sons were much
younger, of course. And when he died, his son,
Henry, was not more than 50 feet away from him
and witnessed his father being killed. But this did
not stop him, the son Henry. Henry could only
forge ahead to ensure victory so that his father's
supreme sacrifice would not be in vain.
Foster was buried at an American Military Cemetery,
along with his son, Robert. His son Henry was
wounded with mustard gas poisoning during this
battle. When he returned home, he applied to the
U.S. Army for military benefits and medical care but
he was denied because he was an Indian and not a
U.S. citizen, at the time.
The story that you heard is a fine example of
display of honor, courage by a father and his sons
protecting our country.
During World War II, there was a soldier by the
name -- or I should say airman, by the name of
Joshua Sanford. He was also a Ho-Chunk and he
was the only Native American to fly as a pilot and a
flight commander for the famous Flying Tigers.

13
As a member of the 75th Fighter Squadron of the
14th Air Force, Captain Sanford flew 102 missions.
He had seven enemy kills and numerous hits. He
was shot down 12 times.
For his meritorious
service, he received ten medals, which include two
purple hearts.
Thirty years after the war ended, the Chinese
government awarded all veterans of the Flying
Tigers the China War Memorial Medal.
The full name of this medal is called "Medal in
Commemoration of Victory in the Resistance against
Aggression." It was established by the Republic of
China in 1944. It was first issued in 1946. Both
military and civilians could be given this award. The
most well-known recipients is the veterans of the
14th Air Force Flying Tigers. It was presented on a
special ceremony, August 2, 1975 in New Orleans,
Louisiana. The medal was posthumously awarded
to Captain Joshua Sanford. His death came at the
early age of 43 on October 21, in 1962 as a result of
his combat injuries. In his honor, his hometown of
Hillsboro, Wisconsin, today the airport is named
"The Captain Joshua Sanford Airport."
Moving on to our next conflict, which was Korea. A
U.S. Army corporal named Mitchell Redcloud, Junior,
was honored with the military's highest honor for
his fearless and heroic deeds on November 5, 1950
in a battle near Chon Yon, Korea. According to the
report of the incident, from his position on the point
of a ridge immediately in front of the company
command post, he was the first to detect approach
of Chinese communist forces and gave the alarm as
the enemy charged from a brush-covered area less
than 100 feet from him. His accurate intense fire
checked the assault and gained time for company to
consolidate its defenses. With utter fearlessness, he
maintained his firing position until severely
wounded by enemy fire. Refusing assistance, he
pulled himself to his feet, wrapped his arm around a
tree and continued his deadly fire until he was
fatally wounded. It has been told that eight bullets

14
had struck him before he finally fell.
years old.

He was 26

It was for his heroic actions that he received the
military's highest award. On April 4, 1951 at a
ceremony at the Pentagon, Corporal Mitchell
Redcloud, Junior was posthumously awarded the
Congressional Medal of Honor. The Medal of Honor
citation was presented to his mother, Nellie
Winneshiek Redcloud, by General Omar Bradley
who, at the time, was the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
Redcloud's remains were returned from the U.N.
cemetery in Korea. On March 25, 1955 with full
military honors, and in accordance with the
ancestral customs of the Ho-Chunk people, he was
laid to rest there. A huge monument in the Decorah
Cemetery at the Indian Mission near Black River
Falls, Wisconsin, serves as his headstone.
The Vietnam conflict was very misunderstood and
highly controversial. Despite this, many Ho-Chunk,
including myself, went to serve their country in
Vietnam. Ninety percent of the Ho-Chunks that
went to Vietnam volunteered. This is one of the
highest per capita of any ethnic group that went
into Vietnam. Many of them served and were highly
decorated for their courage and valor. However, we
had one Ho-Chunk that gave the supreme sacrifice
for his country and his people. On August 16, 1967,
he was killed by Viet Cong forces.
For his service, his hometown of New Lisbon,
Wisconsin, they have an island that they dedicated
to him and there was another gentleman from that
same town. His name is Dale Anderson. They were
the only two from that town that were killed in
Vietnam and they officially dedicated an island on
July 4, 1970 by the then-called the Wisconsin
Winnebago Tribe in the City of New Lisbon,
Wisconsin.
Not only did Ho-Chunk men but we also had women
in the military. And I do not want to not recognize
them. We had two females in the military that

15
served in combat zones. During Operation Iraqi
Freedom, a Ho-Chunk female named Staff Sergeant
Jessika Malott Greendeer was awarded a Bronze
Star in recognition for her work serving her country.
Jessika was the first female Ho-Chunk to receive
such a medal. She is the great granddaughter of
Ho-Chunk Nation's most recognized warrior, Mitchell
Redcloud, Junior.
A citation that accompanied the Bronze Star read:
"For exceptional meritorious service in a combat
zone with risk of hostile action during operation
Iraqi Freedom. Her outstanding duty performance
during combat operations in Iraq contributed to the
overwhelming success of the command's mission.
Her actions are in keeping with the finest traditions
of the military service and reflect great credit upon
her."
We had another female also serving in a combat
zone.
Her name was Senior Airman Jamie L.
Schuler, who served in the United States Air Force.
In 2010, Senior Airman Schuler returned to the
State of Wisconsin from her five contingency
deployments within Operation Iraqi Freedom and
one deployment supporting Operation Enduring
Freedom.
She is the Ho-Chunk Nation's most
highly-decorated female. She was an aerial gunner
onboard an AC-130 gunship assigned to the 4th
Special Operation Squadron.
During her combat tour, Senior Airman Schuler was
involved with over 120 combat missions involving
ground troops support, operations, military convoy
escorts, urban combat operational air support. As a
result, she received many medals for her. And one
in particular she was credited with involved with
capturing 36 high-valued terrorists.
The stories that I have told you about these
different wars and conflicts about the Ho-Chunk
warriors are people who are known for their
patriotism, irregardless of the things that were not - people don't like to talk about, for accomplishing

16
incredible feats of human perseverance.
unfortunately, it didn't end there.

But

After World War II, our World War I and World War
II veterans returned home. They wanted to join the
American Legion.
Unfortunately, the American
Legion did not allow Native Americans to join. But
that did not stop our veterans. They formed our
own group. They called it the Wisconsin Winnebago
Veterans Association.
It was the only Indian
Veterans Organization in the United States at that
time.
And they did something that was very noteworthy.
After they became a formal group, they put in a
request.
They sent a letter to President Harry
Truman, who was at the time -- they wanted to be
in his Inaugural parade and my father was a part of
that. And they did allow them to come here to
Washington, D.C. to participate in that parade. It
was the only Native American Veteran organization
ever to do this at that time.
I apologize if I get a little emotional but when I talk
about this, it reminds me of a lot of things. Like I
say, these are just examples of some of our warrior
traditions filled with feats of valor and courage.
But today is a time that we can recognize seven
more of our warriors for their accomplishments and
sacrifices they made during World War II as code
talkers.
Little is written about the Winnebago, as they were
known at the time, as being associated with the
code talkers. When some of them returned from
war, they told stories about being code talkers.
Even my own father told me a story that when he
was in the Army he said he was approached by an
officer. This officer asked him if he was Indian and
he replied that he was. The officer instructed my
father to go with him. He didn't know where he was
going. All he knew he was being treated very well
and he liked the accommodations, so he didn't
complain.

17
The next day, he was told to report to a certain
location. When he got there he recognized that it
was a communication center. He was instructed to
go sit by a radio and put on a headset, so he did as
he was told. A sergeant came by and asked him to
translate what was being said. My father replied
that he didn't know what they were saying. The
Sergeant said I thought you said you were an
Indian. My father said yes, I am. And he said how
come you didn't understand what they were saying?
And my father said well, I speak Winnebago. He
said I don't understand that language they are
speaking.
The sergeant left. And when he returned, he told
my father to go back to the barracks and pack his
bags; that he was sent to Burma but not as a code
talker. As a foot soldier. That was the end of his
career as a code talker. It lasted two days.
Even though my father didn't become a code talker,
there were seven Ho-Chunk warriors that did
become genuine code talkers. I am here today to
speak on their behalf and request the committee
here to recognize these warriors. Their names are
Bill Whitebear, Howard Littlejohn, Bill Mike, Jesse
Mike, Clifford Blackdeer, Emanuel Thundercloud,
and Benjamin Winneshiek.
All seven of these
warriors are now deceased. As stated in the Code
Talker Recognition Act, in the event of the death of
a native American code talker who had not been
awarded a silver duplicate medal, the Treasury
Secretary may award a silver duplicate medal to the
next of kin or other personal representative.
We gathered some of the next of kin together,
asked them what design they would like to have on
the medal. And there was no discussion. It was
just unanimous on both choices on the obverse and
reverse side.
On the obverse side, they selected number two,
which is a soldier talking on a radio and writing at
the same time. And also on there is the words

18
Woinuxaa Hitete, which translates in Ho-Chunk into
English into talking secretly. That is what it means.
Woinuxaa Hitete. That was just -- because in our
way it shows that he is doing exactly what they
were supposed to be doing at that time.
On the reverse side, again unanimous decision,
number one was chosen with the Ho-Chunk Nation
seal. The seal includes depictions of an eagle, bear,
peace pipe, and war club. The animal depictions
serve as representations of sky and earth clans.
The tribe is divided into 12 clans, the Eagle, Pigeon,
Thunder, Warrior, Bear, Buffalo, Deer, Elk, Fish,
Snake, Water Spirit, and Wolf. The outline of the
state of Wisconsin signifies the tribe's historical
attachment to this territory.
I want thank you. I want to thank the committee
here for giving me this opportunity to speak today
on behalf of these seven warriors and to represent
the Ho-Chunk Nation. I humbly ask each and every
one of you that you consider honoring these
warriors by awarding the next of kin with the medal
that they have selected. Thank you very much for
listening to me.
(Applause.)
Chair Marks:
Thank you, Mr. Mann, for your
wonderful presentation.
Ms. Stafford: Thank you so much. Well, I think
that the challenges the Ho-Chunk faced in serving
our country, as well as those that they faced upon
their return really rightly serves as a reminder of
why we are all here today. So again, I thank you,
Mr. Mann, for coming and speaking on the tribe's
behalf. I could not do a better job of describing the
obverse or reverse inscriptions.
As Mr. Mann noted, under obverse -- I will go
through them, though. Obverse one, two, as Mr.
Mann noted that is the tribe's preference, three,
four, five, six, and seven, which the CFA noted as
their preference.
And the reverse designs one,

19
again, the tribe's preference and the CFA concurred,
two, and three.
So I will go on to the Meskwaki Nation and if the
committee wishes to call Mr. Mann back up to
comment or provide feedback as you are
deliberating over the Ho-Chunk designs, we may.
The Meskwaki Nation is from Iowa. We have the
obverse designs which features the Nation's code
talkers. They are inscribed Meskwaki Nation Code
Talkers and "we are the red earth people" in
Meskwaki language. According to our liaison, the
spelling is always lower case.
Here we have obverse designs one, two, which the
CFA noted as their preference, three, and four, the
tribe's preference.
For reverse designs, they depict the Meskwaki
Nation tribal logo and they are inscribed Act of
Congress 2008 and World War I and World War II.
We have reverse designs one, two, which is the
CFA's preference, and three, the tribe's preference.
Moving on to Oglala Sioux Tribe from South Dakota,
the obverse designs represents Oglala Sioux Tribe
Code Talkers and they are inscribed Oglala or Oglala
Code Talkers and Lakota Indian Soldier Translator
Man in Oglala language and English.
We have three designs. Design one, which is the
tribe's preference, two, the CFA noting their
preference with this one, and three.
For the reverse designs, they are based on the
Oglala Sioux Tribe flag. The nine teepees represent
the nine districts of Oglala, which are Porcupine,
Wakpamni, Medicine Root, Pass Creek, Eagle Nest,
White Clay, PR Village, with PR representing Pine
Ridge, La Creek, and Wounded Knee. And they are
inscribed along the border in designs three and four.
Other inscriptions that are included are World War
II, Act of Congress 2008, and Warriors Society in
Oglala language.

20
So we have reverse design one, two, three, the
tribe's preference as well as CFA's, four, five, and
six.
Moving on to Seminole Nation from Oklahoma. We
have a guest. Mr. Lewis Johnson, Records Manager
of the Seminole Nation. I would like to invite you to
address the committee.
Mr. Johnson: Thank you, April.
(Speaks in Native American language.)
Hello and how are you? I hope that you are doing
well. I did have to hire an Indian guide to get me
around Washington this morning.
(Laughter.)
Mr. Johnson:
But it is a great honor for the
Seminole Nation to be able to have a representation
here at this committee. And we thank the U.S.
Congress back in 2008 for passing the Act that
would also put these medals in place. We want to
say our gratitude in our heart is thankful to you
today.
Now the Seminole Nation, as many of you that are
historical buffs realize that the Seminoles are on the
Mall here with the Marines and when it says that
they participated in the Florida wars, that means
that they participated with the Seminoles.
Now Seminoles, as we would say it, or Simano-li,
the Seminole people actually is an amalgamated
group of many tribal towns over the history of our
people. We are from the Muscogee and Linguistic
family, which ties in many of the major larger
southeastern
tribes
such
as
the
Choctaw,
Chickasaw, Muscogee Creek, and the Seminole.
These are from the same mother linguistic family,
thought the dialects within these languages are
somewhat different.
So that means a Mikasuki
speaker would not necessarily understand a proper
Muscogee speaker, though the language comes

21
from the same language family.
Now our original names of our people was not
Seminole or Simano-li. That came over a period of
time of history. Our original names you may be
familiar with. Oconee, Ichiri, Miccosukee, we call it
Tallahassee.
You say Tallahassee.
We say
Tallahassee. That is my tribal town. That is our
people. And that is who we go by today. The
Seminole Nation of Oklahoma is the only tribe left in
the 39 federally-recognized tribes of Oklahoma that
still have a traditional form of government, which
means we have representation from these
distinctive origins of these tribal towns. We have
miccos, which are what you would say in English
equivalent to king or even say chief. So we say
micco or micco apotka, which is twin chief. Those
are the two leaders of our nation today, as far as
the executive office is concerned.
We are made up of two council representatives on
our governing body, which is the way that it was
throughout our history. At one time we had three
but we reduced it down to two because of budget
cuts and they wanted to be paid, just like any
government legislation group does.
So Seminole actually comes from a term and a lot
of historical scholars get it wrong because
transliteration of language is different, even for the
scholar. They will take on different thoughts and
they will have this idea or that idea of why it is.
Cimarron or cimarron, which is the Spanish
interpretive of wild, undomesticated, that type of
terminology, is a lot of times how they say a term in
our native language Seminole came about. But that
really is not the way that it is. The Seminole is a
Muscogee term (speaks in Native American
language) Seminole, we are speaking of something
that comes from the earth that is indigenous to that
area. And when we say (speaks in Native American
language) Seminole, that just means persimmon.
That is what that is. And the Muscogee people,
which are you, sometimes known as the Creeks,

22
they called us (speaks in Native American language)
Seminole as a metaphoric-type connotation.
Because what became Seminoles or known as
Seminoles were all these distinctive tribal towns
that I told you earlier about. And as they moved
into Northern Florida, they were scattered abroad.
And they weren't in the large townships like the
Muscogee confederacy. They were in small groups
and they were scattered as the persimmon grows.
How many has ever gathered persimmons when you
was younger?
I did.
And when you go to a
persimmon grove, they are little straight trees and a
little bit. You don't pick them all, though. You pick
just enough and then you go another eighth of a
mile, a quarter of a mile, pick from that grove,
right, and you can get enough that way. That is
how the Muscogee Creek saw our people at that
time in our history. They was metaphorically saying
you are like the persimmon groves.
You are
scattered abroad in small groups. But this small
group, as you know you history, became a
formidable foe for the United States during the
Seminole and Florida wars in the history. Most of
you will know that they were the longest American
Indian wars in history and cost the U.S. government
the most.
The first engagement of true guerrilla warfare was
fought against the Seminoles. And our brothers and
our brethren to this day, which were people of
African descent that were not Seminole by blood or
Indian by blood but they fought for the same
freedoms and protection of livelihood. And we still
have those people as members of our tribe today.
A distinctive history. They called them Seminole
Freedmen. Some people will use the terminology
Black Seminole but we don't use that among our
people.
We just call them Seminole Freedmen
because we believe that if your Seminole by blood,
Indian by blood, then you are Seminole. The only
distinctiveness you have to do. Black Seminole,
that is not a terminology we use but scholars use
that.

23
Now the Seminoles, there is two tribes, as you
know, federally-recognized tribes. The Seminole
Tribe of Florida and the Seminole Nation of
Oklahoma. Throughout the course of our history as
Seminoles were brought west after the Indian
Removal Act there were a majority of Seminoles
who were brought to the west, which is now the
State of Oklahoma. A remnant of Seminoles that
were left was under 300 and they are known as the
Seminole Tribe of Florida today. We are from the
same customs. We are from the same language
families. We are from the same dances and stories.
We are geographically different because of the
locations where our people have been over the last
-- over 150 years. But I just spent a whole week
with the Florida Seminoles down in Florida and I
think Washington, D.C. has them beat as far as the
humidity is concerned.
(Laughter.)
Mr. Johnson: Because I took off walking thinking I
was going to be here and it looked like I just got out
of the shower by the time that I got here.
But I just wanted to share a little bit of that with
you.
You know some of you recall that the
Seminoles would be the prisoners of war on the
infamous Indian Removal policies of the 1830s. You
heard the terminology phrase the Trail of Tears.
Historically we don't relate to that particular
movement of many tribes that went westward
because ours lasted over 42 years of Indian wars.
Was it our tears that shed? Most likely so. But our
people that was sent west did not remove to the
west voluntarily. They were shackled in chains for
the men and taken over by water so that they could
not get on land and fight. But the thing about it
was is that the Seminole peoples adapted to the
regions that they were taken to and they thrive to
this day. And I am glad to know that and glad to
know that I was born a Seminole Indian person with
those linkages to our brethren in South Florida.

24
Now we are going to go to these designs and I am
going to share a little bit about it. Do you have
them on the -- okay, let's go to these designs.
This is the obverse number one. And this is the one
that we have chosen as a tribe. And this says
"acemeket hecetv heret os." That is actually a
phrase that was used by one of our code talkers. It
is said it is good to climb in sea. That is what that
means if you translate it into English. And what you
see here is, of course, code talkers transmitting the
messages across. You also see a connection. You
might say why did he tell us all that beforehand.
Because, my friend, you are in this room with me.
And if we all would tell the truth today, you will go
back a generation or so or less, you probably spoke
a different language, your people, even than what
you speak today, English. When I speak with young
people from all walks of life, regardless of who they
may be, I say think of it. Many years ago, you
didn't only speak English but your people spoke a
distinctive language. They had their own dances to
dance. They had their own songs to sing. They had
their own stories to tell. And when I share that with
young people, I say seek it out, even if it is only
from a historical perspective, from a genealogy
perspective because it will make you a complete
person as you grow up to your adulthood. I believe
that. I truly believe that.
And that is why language, our linguistic relations, it
is very important to tie from our earlier periods of
our history to the present. This man is called Holata
Micco. Holata Micco was what most people would
know in Seminole history as Billy Bowlegs. Billy
Bowlegs was the last Seminole chief to leave Florida
and come to the Indian Territory.
Sometimes
people will relate to him as the leader during the
Third Seminole War. There was a First Seminole
War, Second Seminole War, and Third Seminole
War. And Billy Bowlegs would not come to the
Indian Territory.
He refused to come until
Seminoles could secure land of their own in the
west. They didn't want to be under the Muscogee

25
Nation. You see policy, when you are linguistically
related, they want to put you with whoever you are
linguistically related to. Seminoles didn't want that.
Men like Coacoochee decided to leave the Indian
Territory and even go to Old Mexico and they were
hired on by the Mexican government to protect the
borders of Old Mexico during that time. And there
was actually a Congressional Medal of Honor from
the black affiliations they call the -- they were called
like the scouts for the buffalo soldiers. Some of
them were black folks that went into Mexico with
Coacoochee.
Now Billy Bowlegs was closely to Mikonopi who was
the head chief of the Seminoles. He was the chief
of a certain tribal town. We call that tribal town in
Oklahoma today Pilaklakaha.
That means
newcomer.
Now, how does that come about? Because they
came about 25 years later, after the first group of
Seminoles were moved to the west, they came
about 25 years later, 1857 and 1858. You see in
1856, the United States government placed land
that was called the Seminole land in the west. And
when they did that, Bowlegs said, yes, I come west
and he came west. So we are tying that together
with the language that was spoken during World
War II, the "acemeket hecetv heret os," which is
one of the codes, as I said earlier, that was actually
mentioned. So that is what that obverse side shows
there.
Now originally -- you want to show those others?
Because I know you have a preference. Now that
was kind of really, you know we give these
elements. You understand the process, right? We
are exchanging elements over the phone and
through emails and so on. And at one time we had
an element that a lot of times you see Indian
artists, you know they will sometimes split Indian
warrior and maybe a soldier of the military on the
other side. That kind of imagery is empowering and
sometimes very inspirational when you see that.

26
Go back to that first one. And I know I am not
going to spend too much more time on this second
one. Yes, this one here -- the second one. I'm
sorry. So they put a helmet on it and they put
plumes in part of the turban wrap on that and of
course I hope that ain't your preference. Because
although the artist's interpretation, I know they
were trying to get it there. We do appreciate the
efforts. Go to the next one.
The same here, they just added, I think, something
else on the back side of that. The rifle, I believe,
came up on that. Go to the next one.
This one, although he has a turban and they tried to
put what we call our Seminole patchwork in the
background. Now this came a little later in our
history. We really don't prefer that one because
that really is not historically correct.
I worked for the Seminole Nation Museum for over
20 years and I am the tribal liaison for history. That
is why I am here speaking with you today. Go to
the next one.
Neither is this one. They just changed the face.
This one here definitely has the soldiers ready to
transmit a message, as you can see. It still has our
language here and, of course, Seminole code
talkers. Now most of you all will recognize this
young warrior. We call him in Oklahoma Asi-yahola.
Asi-yahola, the Black Drink Hollerer. We say (sound
of Native American hollering). That is what we say
or (sound of Native American hollering). Like that.
A lot of people don't know that with southeastern
Indians. That is what we do when we were in war
or when we are at ceremonial dancing. (Sound of
Native American hollering.) That is how we do.
And my friend, if you heard that back during those
days, say your prayers.
(Laughter.)
Mr. Johnson: But anyway, in Florida they call him

27
Osceola or Osceola, two different ways of
pronunciation.
Osceola or Osceola, that is the
English derivative of Osceola. Well Osceola, though
we have direct relations and kindred to him, he
never did come west. Holata Micco did.
Billy
Bowlegs.
Billy Bowlegs also fought in the Civil War and
actually helped aid the United States Union in taking
back the Indian Territory for the United States
during the Civil War. Billy Bowlegs did.
So that ties are closely there and not only in
customs and traditions but in the language. And
that is why we use Billy Bowlegs.
So although we revere Osceola in his leadership, we
would not prefer that, although it is a nice looking
design.
Next one. So those are all those.
your preference, ma'am?

Well, what is

Ms. Stafford: If you would like to continue for the
reverses.
Mr. Johnson:
reverse then.

Oh, okay.

Yes, we will go to the

Well we was talking over the phone. What we call
Pegnegewen Nishnabe. That is that ball play, that
game that is played amongst southeastern tribes,
all the tribes I have mentioned of the southeastern
peoples play this game. There is a social game.
There is also a field game east and west.
Sometimes we call it that East and West game. The
field runs east and west of course. And it was a
game that was sometimes used to settle disputes
against tribal bands back in the earlier days of our
history. And sometimes it was called Little Brother
of War. And it was a preparation for the young
warriors in as far as their physicality and getting
their emotion and mentality ready for actual
possible battle. But it was a game that was played.

28
So those kind of thoughts were thought on the
reverse side originally.
And I believe that is
probably why they had this one here. They have
got the two wolves down here. There is a story in
our history about wolves. It is the brother of war to
the Seminole people. It was said back there in the
time in our history that there was a contingent of
warriors and they were en route to meet up with
another group of warriors. And as they were going
toward that area that rendezvous where they was
going to meet together, it is said that there came a
wolf and it appeared before them. It was a big one.
And it just stood very still right there in front of
those warriors but only just for a brief moment.
And then it went back into the woods. The warriors
continued on their journey. And as they were going
on this journey, it is said that the same wolf
appeared but this time it had two or three others
with it. And it stayed there a little longer and then
it went on.
Well, they continued on and soon that wolf
appeared and there was a whole pack that was with
that wolf. And this time they would not leave. They
only stayed there. And then many of the warriors
said grandfather is trying to tell us something. And
they said what we call (speaks in Native American
language), which is the runner or messenger ahead.
And what they found out that there was an ambush
ahead. So the wolf became known as the brother of
war to the Seminole because of that. And that is a
story that is sometimes passed down to us about
that time.
Although our people when the design came out,
they kind of -- well, I am just going to tell you.
They just kind of laughed like that a little bit.
(Laughter.)
Mr. Johnson: We are thirsty. We used to tell about
chickens. Did anyone ever have chickens before?
They used to always tell us, and I am not being
derogatory at all. I am just telling you how we are

29
told is sometimes wolfs in the earlier days would
come around, even in Oklahoma before they
became pretty much extinguished them. When they
would come they would talk in Indian and say hey,
grandfather, I only got a little bit of chickens now.
Don't take mine. Go down the road where that
white man lives. He has whole lots of them.
(Laughter.)
Mr. Johnson:
But you have got to understand
Indian humor, right?
(Laughter.)
Mr. Johnson: Because sometimes we talk that way,
don't we Robert? We talk that way. We don't mean
offense to anybody. Not at all. It is just our own
little humor that we have amongst ourselves.
This one here is, of course, we looked at and you
will know that there was a tribal resolution. I don't
think this one is the exact one here. This is that
first one. We thought it was just a little -- it needed
a little bit different presentation on it. But our tribal
seal Seminole Nation, Oklahoma, is actually a seal
that represents our people when we bartered and
we traded at the factories. Have you ever heard of
the factories in early history?
Among Seminoles, we have a common last name
among some of our people, Factor. They call it, I
know, many factors. One of the band chiefs for our
largest band Tusekia Harjo, which is the band where
their chief is from, at this particular time our
principle chief, his name is Rodney Factor. But that
name comes from way back. Well, you ever got in
debt? We all have. Sometimes they liked to get
the Indian in debt, even back in that time, these
factories. And then you trade them pelts to relieve
that debt. And the factor was sort of like they
called like middlemen. That is what they used to
tell us. He was like the middleman. But it became
a last name among some Seminoles.

30
But there is a lot of names that are our last names.
You probably heard of like McKinley, McKay, McGirt,
McIvory, all those names. Those was from those
periods, too, when Scotts tradesmen would
sometimes want to trade with southeastern Indian
people. And if they found out if they could marry an
Indian woman, it is sort of like up here on Royston's
Hill, you know, they could get the inside trade, you
know?
Get on the inside business. They would
have the gravy going a long time in it.
Well they figured that out because
matrilineal,
whatever your momma is, that is where you stand
in your tribal town affiliation and that is where you
stand within your clan affiliation.
Okay?
So
although they had a Scottish father, because their
momma was Seminole or Muscogee, then those
people held those claims. And there was chiefs that
their daddies were Scottish but their momma was
Indian and they were actually still respected chiefs
because of the clan affiliation and tribal town.
Okay, go to that one we looked at. This is it. The
only change here is a little bit on the accenting of
this area. They would go and they would trade
things like herbs that was allowed to be traded in
that time with these people. Of course pelts, and
they would give bear grease, and wax, beeswax,
and such as that. They would trade it for those
people.
They would use it for their medicinal
purposes, too, and treatments. And this just shows
like a Seminole man that is going across to do that
trade.
And that was our preference. This is supported by a
tribal resolution from the Seminole Nation's General
Counsel, this particular one. Okay?
All right, to the next one. Well that's that. And this
one here we had an employee gathering the other
day, you know about two months ago. And I just
hit 50 years old myself. And I was out there with all
those young ones. I thought I was still young,
Robert. I thought I was young out there. We was

31
playing volleyball and all kinds of different activities.
People were getting hurt. Of course, I thought I
was 18-years-old, still. So I was rolling around and
getting up and really trying to play. They said you
think you are a teenager, don't you? I said in my
mind I don't think any different but my body is
telling me different, that I am not that young.
And I was teasing Assistant Chief. I said they must
have snapped a picture of me when I was kayaking
down the river there.
(Laughter.)
Mr. Johnson: Actually, that is a very good artist's
interpretation of a Seminole warrior. But our tribal
seal is what it is. You know, our tribal seal is what
it is.
I wish that was around when we was doing tribal
seals years ago. So there is our actual tribal seal.
And you will see that reverse side that we had a
resolution supported by our counsel supports that.
I want to close with this. I was sharing with you all
I was at the National Indian Health Board Summit.
And I know this sequestration is affecting many,
many people, perhaps even you in this room. But it
is also affecting Indian country and we had very
serious talks down there. Discretionary funds is
used to weigh whether our healthcare is managed in
Indian country.
If I become before you again, in two weeks we have
an election. I am the tribal liaison to this committee
and to the code talkers medal. But if things go like
is projected, they may not. I may come to you as
apotka, which is the twin chief of our tribe because I
am running for the assistant chief, as it is said in
our tribe. So maybe I will come as an official of the
executive office next time.
But what I want to share with you, though, is
something I got into speaking about with some of
the veterans of the Seminole Tribe of Florida. One

32
of the questions about our tribal seal putting the
Seminole Nation of Oklahoma on there, we wanted
that because the United States government
recognizes us as two different federally-recognized
tribes, right? They do. The Seminole Tribe of
Florida did not have any code talkers. And I know
for marketing purposes of the bronze it might work
better if we just had Seminoles on it, I realize that.
But it was the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma.
Someone asked the question, they lived all in
Oklahoma? Well, we kind of laughed at that when I
got that email. They all live in Oklahoma? Does all
Americans live in Washington, D.C.? No, you are
from distinctive communities. Your hometowns are
from distinctive areas but you are still citizen of the
United States, right? Well these are still members.
Wherever they may live, they are members of the
Seminole Nation of Oklahoma.
Well the Seminole Tribe of Florida is sponsoring the
American Indian Veterans Memorial Initiative. Has
any of you all heard that? It is the Vietnam War
Memorial, right?
Where the three men are
represented.
Well we say (speaks in Native
American language) and then the Hispanic is
represented there. And you know as well as I do
sometimes they would put American Indians down
as white in certain applications for certain states in
certain areas.
The Seminole Tribe of Florida had asked me to
mention it to you guys and you ladies here today to
think about that.
That initiative is to put a
representative of the American Indian people there
also. And I would hope that with your constituency
and the people that you have favor with, that
perhaps you will bring this up.
Look on that website aivmi.org for more
information. There is council resolutions from just
about every nation who is participating in this and
we hope that it can be where the war memorials are
for this very reason. That is where it belongs. They

33
want us to put it in front of the National Museum of
the American Indian. That is generous and we don't
take that lightly but we want it there. We all served
together. We buried my dad only a few years ago.
And I am telling you, he was in the 45th Infantry
Division in Korea, the Thunderbirds. And when they
heard that my dad had passed away, we got a
picture of him like this. He was a boxer. And it is in
our museum back home. And there was supposed
to be an exhibition fight. It was Ezzard Charles
back in that time. And a Marine was supposed to
fight Ezzard Charles. And if he really got sick or had
a virus or just if Ezzard Charles could punch hard.
Anyway, he didn't show up. And they said we need
someone for exhibition fight, they said, with Ezzard
Charles. And someone said we got an Indian boy.
He'll get in that ring with him. And sure enough,
my dad fought Ezzard Charles. And my dad used to
tell me that story and here I am a little boy. Ezzard
Charles didn't mean that much to me. I don't know
Ezzard Charles. I'm Cassius Clay, Mohammad Ali,
George Foreman and all those I am familiar with.
Ezzard Charles, I am not. I was kind of looking
through the Guinness Book of World Records and
guess what? There he was, Ezzard Charles, world
champion. And we got a picture of my dad, 45th
division.
But you know, wherever our people served, that is
where that memorial needs to be. Right in that
location. That's all we are asking as Indian Nations.
You know, I know we got our museum there they
want to put there. But anyway, you got favor with
some folks? Drop a line to them. It would be
greatly appreciated from the Indian nations of this
country.
So thank you very much and I will take any
comments. Or I guess I am going to learn which
one is you all's choice.
Ms. Stafford: Thank you.
(Applause.)

34
Chair Marks:
presentation.

Thank you sir, for that wonderful

Ms. Stafford: Thank you very much. I can take
that for you. Again, thank you so much for being
here. We really appreciate that background. It is
very helpful.
Just for the record, I would note that we moved
through each of the designs, all of the designs in
the obverse category as well as the reverses. And I
would note that in the obverse designs, CFA
preferred obverse three, while the tribe again
preferred one. And for the reverses, CFA preferred
one, while the tribe, as Mr. Johnson noted,
preferred four.
So moving on to our last tribe, the Yankton Sioux
from South Dakota.
The obverse designs feature the Yankton Sioux
Tribe code talkers delivering messages in various
ways. Design three includes a stylized trench in the
background and they are all inscribed with Yankton
Sioux
Code Talkers, Yankton Sioux Tribe, and
another inscription that is the way that the Yankton
Sioux Tribe refers to its tribe.
So we have obverse one, two, which is the CFA's
preference, three, four, the tribe's preference, five,
and six.
For reverse designs, there are variations of a
drawing of a Buffalo skull with tribal colors. This
drawing was submitted by the Yankton Sioux Tribe
and it was painted in honor of tribe veterans.
Design two also includes the Yankton Sioux logo,
which was also included in the buffalo skull drawing.
The Yankton Sioux Tribe considers the buffalo part
of their culture. It provides them with shelter, food,
weapons, toys, and it connects to their spirituality
similar to the eagle.
The designs are inscribed World War I and Act of
Congress 2008. And for reverse, we have reverse

35
one, which the CFA noted as their preference, and
two, the tribe's preference.
Mr. Chairman, that concludes the notes.
Chair Marks: Thanks, April. Am I on? Are you
guys hearing me? Hello? I have a dead mike.
Would somebody give me a mike? It says it is on
but it is showing an empty battery.
So I am
assuming that it is spent. Testing. I'm sorry for
that delay.
Thank you, April. Am I correct? It seems to me
that didn't we see the Yankton Sioux medals
before? We saw the design before?
Mr. Everhart: You saw the obverse one before.
Chair Marks: Okay, that must be my confusion.
Okay, are there other technical questions from the
committee for any of the tribes or nations that we
have seen today?
Member Jansen: Two questions or comments for
the committee. Make a note on your voting sheets
on the Seminole Nation, please. On the obverse,
we show obverse one through six. I think they are
actually one through five, with a 2 and a 2B, so we
don't get a confusion. So it would be obverse one,
obverse two, obverse 2B, obverse three, four, and
five.
So just again, on the Seminole Nation on the
obverses, just make sure you strike obverse six and
add an obverse 2B, somehow make that clear.
And second of all, I think on the Ho-Chunk Nation,
and April check me on this, please. Betty, check me
on this. I think the letter from the tribe says they
have a dual preference on the obverse for number
two and number seven.
Ms. Birdsong: Yes, that is correct.
Member Jansen: So I want to make sure that the
committee knows that the tribe had two preferences

36
of equal weighting on that one.
Ms. Birdsong: Not equal weighting. Their first
preference is two and their second preference is
seven.
Member Jansen: Okay. So first and second choice.
And the CFA chose seven, correct?
Okay, where there any other kind of minor tweaks
on these things, April?
Ms. Stafford: For Ho-Chunk or across all of them?
Member Jansen: Across all of them. I just wanted
to make sure we are all kind of clear because the
committee is sensitive to the tribal preference.
Ms. Stafford: Sure. No, I believe that is it.
Member Jansen: Okay, thank you.
Chair Marks: Okay, I have another question on the
Ho-Chunk's preference on the obverse.
The
gentleman shown is not wearing a combat helmet.
Is that an accurate depiction of someone acting as a
code talker that you would not have your helmet
on? And why was it rendered that way?
Ms. Birdsong: In this instance, the artist assumed
that his helmet was laid somewhere, not actually in
the design and that he would have stopped to use
the radio. DoD was okay with this portrayal.
Chair Marks: Okay.
Ms. Stafford:
And just to note, we have no
comments from DoD that that is an issue.
Chair Marks:
Oh, so Department of Defense
reviewed all of these?
Ms. Stafford: Yes. Yes, and we just only recently
received their feedback. And so there are slight
modifications, as I indicated earlier about specifics
about the way a chin strap might lay or a particular

37
element of a uniform. Slight modifications, nothing
substantial should change the compositions.
Chair Marks: All right.
Ms. Stafford: But no comments about obverse two
not having a helmet at all from DoD.
Chair Marks: Okay.
Member Moran: It could be he is in a rear area,
where if there is no immediate need, you may not
wear your helmet.
Chair Marks: Okay. All right. Not being a military
person, I needed to ask the question. I wasn't sure
if that was an appropriate rendering or not. So
thank you.
Are there other members of the committee that
might have questions more of a technical nature?
That is not commenting on your preferences but
trying to clarify issues before we move on. Heidi?
Member Wastweet:
I'd like to ask the
representative on the Seminole Nation reverse. The
tribe preference was for number four. And I wanted
you to clarify a little bit what the difference was
between three and four and what made four your
preference. Is it because it says "of Oklahoma" or
was it the design itself?
Ms. Stafford: Mr. Johnson. Just so the recorder can
hear you.
Mr. Johnson: The design did fluctuate just a little
bit as far as the accent highlights within the
imagery.
But on the resolution that was presented by the
tribal council, our official seal of Seminole Nation of
Oklahoma. And I guess that was probably when I
took it to the Executive Office when I received that
other back sample of it that was a question that was
brought up.

38
So I talked to the principle chief and also the
assistant chief at the time and they asked if we
could add that. And, of course, they did. And that
was the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma.
Member Wastweet: As far as the image -Mr. Johnson: Could you bring it up on the screen,
please?
Member Wastweet: As far as the image itself,
number three is rendered a little more in a three
dimensional manner, whereas, number four is two
dimensional manner. Did you have any objections
to the way number three was rendered?
Mr. Johnson: I don't have any objections if it is
more befitting for the medal but only of the lettering
to keep Seminole Nation of Oklahoma in there. We
understand the process that you must look at
aesthetically and realistically.
I think we are getting close there. We were towards
the end there. This is what you are speaking of,
instead of -- this is more that could be placed on
the medal.
Member Wastweet: Correct.
Mr. Johnson: It is still the same imagery. So yes, if
that works better, just continue to have the "of
Oklahoma" in there. Because that was -- if that is
possible, we would appreciate that.
Member Wastweet: Okay, I wanted to clarify that
that was what it was that you liked about four.
Mr. Johnson: Well you know to the eye, as far as
the piece, if you was looking at it like as a graphic
look, it looks better that way, does it not? But on
the medal it will look better the other way, is what
you are saying.
Member Wastweet: Yes, I am coming at this from a
sculptor point of view.

39
Mr. Johnson: I understand.
Member Wastweet: If I were the one sculpting this
and I were looking at the two, I would have a
difficult time sticking strictly to design number four,
as a sculpture; whereas, design number three is
rendered in a way that would be much more
conducive to a sculpture and show it better on the
medal as a medal, versus number four which makes
it more patch-looking.
Mr. Johnson: We conclude, too, the experts of this
panel for that, just the lettering.
Member Wastweet:
for clarifying.

Thank you.

Okay, thank you

Mr. Johnson: Thank you.
Chair Marks: Are there others who would like to
comment with questions?
Member Jansen:
April, what was the CFA's
preference on the Oglala Sioux obverse and
reverse?
Ms. Stafford: Just one second. the Oglala Sioux
preference from CFA on the obverse was two -Member Jansen: Thank you.
Ms. Stafford: -- and on the reverse, three.
Member Jansen: Thank you.
Ms. Stafford: Did you need me to reiterate the
tribe's preferences for the obverse and reverse?
Member Jansen: No, I have got those. Thank you.
Chair Marks: Okay, others before we move on to
our evaluation? Yes, Michael.
Member Bugeja:
You know, this is directed to
Betty. We had seen so many wonderful designs and
have heard so many from so many tribes. Does the
U.S. Mint ever put out an illustrated book with all

40
these histories?
Because the research and the
stories that go with it -- I know these are medals
and not coins. But it would inform all the high
schools that come to the Mint. It could be used at
Iowa State, for instance, Senator Larson, who
teaches our Native American Studies would be able
to use that.
The reason why I say this is that when we have had
guests come here and detail their histories as we
have heard today, there is a subtext to it. And the
subtext is, this is not known. And indeed today I
found out things that I never knew and that I am
going to take back to my ethics class because I
want to see if the journalists at the time recorded
this but did not report it. Because if they didn't
report it, then that is an ethical issue in journalism.
But it would seem to me a small glossy book of the
finalists, even would be a tremendous educational
U.S. Mint product that would be used every day.
Some of the designs as well with the stories.
I wonder, does the U.S. Mint ever produce like little
plates or posters that can be bought when schools
come through? Because it would also inform.
I just put that out there because I would hate to see
like Mr. Mann's wonderful eloquent history just
evaporate. Do they ever do that, put out little
booklets?
Ms. Birdsong: To my knowledge, the only thing that
we have done is lesson plans.
Member Bugeja:
program.

I know that.

I know that

Ms. Birdsong: With the ultra-high relief we did put
out a booklet. I don't know if this is something we
can do but we can definitely explore options.
Member Bugeja: It is a subtext that this history
isn't known. I agree it is not known. I learned
things today that I never -- I was looking at April's

41
reaction to some of the -- we were both having the
same reaction.
I lived in Oklahoma and covered the tribes in
Oklahoma. I lived in South Dakota. I have covered
Pine Ridge. And I didn't know any of this. So that
is why I'm saying, this would be a wonderful thing
to have as an educational product from the U.S.
Mint.
Ms. Birdsong: I agree. I have learned so much by
working with all the liaisons. There is an abundance
of information. And in some cases, I thought I
knew, but I did not know the complete -Member Bugeja: I did not know about the veterans
associations, and things like that. It just shocked
me.
Ms. Birdsong: Yes, so this would be something
wonderful but we are happy to discuss it internally
and see if we can actually bring it to fruition.
Ms. Stafford:
Yes, absolutely.
I think your
comments will be very helpful. We can share this
transcript with some of our counterparts who work
with the outreach, educational outreach, as well as
the products and see what they can do with the
idea. So thank you.
Member Bugeja:
The market for it would be
tremendous, educationally. Thank you. Sorry to
take your time but you have everything -- I am
author. You have everything. You have got the
illustrations. You have got the history. You have
got the narratives. You have got the testimony. It
is all public record. So if you don't do it, I will.
(Laughter.)
Ms. Stafford: Is there a motion?
Chair Marks: I think there was a motion.
Go ahead.

42
Mr. Johnson: I guess I just took it for granted that
there would be additional things about these
particular medals. Because like you said, with all
that said and goes into them can't be explained just
by the site of them. And even if it is just a small
area given to each individual from the bronze
collection.
And someone said well you were going to sing. I
left that off. And I didn't do it on purpose. I just
left it out.
Very important and maybe for the transcript you
can take this. It was said back in World War II that
there was Edmund Harjo, who was one of the code
talkers for the Seminoles. He was going along and
he began to hear something in the distance. And
what he heard was (sings in Native American
language).
And in our language they are saying that when we
leave this world, we are going to be with the
creator and our relations. And it was often told on
oral histories that men would sing that song before
that they would go into battle because they didn't
know if they were going to leave this walks of life or
not. And that is usually -We was talking about three weeks ago and there
was a lady about probably 65-years-old. And she
said when I was a little girl my grandpa used to tell
me that same thing and used to tell me about the
Seminoles had people that were kind of like what
you said code talkers. And I said yes, that is true.
As a matter of fact, I will be going to a meeting in
Washington to speak to the committee.
So there is your song. Some of you said you were
going to sing.
Member Bugeja: Thank you.
Chair Marks: Thank you very much.
Member Bugeja: Don't forget my alma maters are

43
Oklahoma State and South Dakota State. And they
all have large Native American centers, even in
Germany.
They would actually be wonderful
distributors of any book. And I could help arrange
that, if you decide to go to print with it.
Chair Marks: Thank you all. Any other comments,
quickly?
Okay, now it is part of our process when we are
dealing with so many designs that often we will go
through and we will call out those designs that none
of the committee members seemed to have interest
in. Is that something that we are interested in
doing today or is it -Ms. Stafford: I don't think it is necessary.
Member Bugeja: Yes, I think that we could just -- I
think we had a good education from the tribes. I
worry about picking designs that have symbols and
icons that we might not know about. Except for a
few items, I am supporting of the tribes.
Chair Marks: Okay, well that was my thought, too,
Michael. Thank you for expressing it.
My only concern is that if we get into our individual
comments and we begin to address every design,
we have already -- we are already significantly over
time on our schedule.
So with that understanding, we will go forward with
our review. You were provided -- each member was
provided a copy or copies of the scoring sheets. So
as we go through this next exercise, please fill those
out and when we are done, I will ask you to pass
those to Eric and he will do the tabulation for us.
So is there anyone here who wants to go first?
Okay, Michael.
Member Bugeja: I'll go first because I would like to
set some standards to this.
The one that I -- on these designs, some of them

44
have things that I actually looked for. And that is,
orientation. Where is the figure looking? Is he
looking straight on or is there some action going
on?
The second thing is the sensory data. How much in
the five senses, and the sixth sense is movement, is
incorporated into that design?
And the third thing is moving -- as a teacher I say
this -- we are moving from a literary culture into a
visual culture, where sometimes the visual symbols
will not make sense to the younger folks. So that is
what I just wanted to put out there.
I support all of the tribes' preferences. I do want to
call out just a few designs that I thought were
worthy of looking at.
If you could go to the Ho-Chunk Nation obverse
number one, the reason why I wanted to point to
this one is that it is a unique design that shows that
sixth sense of motion. And with the code talkers,
we have had the sense of hearing and the sense of
seeing. But movement in a coin is so exciting. And
the movement here really is new. I know this is a
medal but if this were a coin, numismatists and
hobbyists would love this for the movement.
I just wanted to make that -- I still support the
multitasking. The tribe picked multitasking. And if
anybody can visualize, there is multitasking going
on there and it will appeal to many younger people.
So I really enjoyed that.
But that is a design that I hope doesn't go away and
maybe that Don Everhart can talk about the
movement and the eagle flying. You remember
when we talk about coins, flying eagles have always
been some of the most beautiful coins, beginning
with Gold Rush.
I also wanted to mention that on the Seminole
Nation, obverse number one is an actually stunning
design. I am just -- this has so many things going

45
for it in terms of artistic -- when we get to it I will
speak a little bit further. You have history. You
have time. You have a sense of movement.
Ms. Stafford: I'm sorry, sir. Which number?
Member Bugeja: Yes, this one here.
Ms. Stafford: One, thank you.
Member Bugeja: Just absolutely stunning. Now
this wouldn't work on a small planchette but on a
medal. It does work on a medal.
But you have got history. You have got movement.
You have got orientation. You have got a wellbalanced. You need a medal planchette for this. It
wouldn't work on a quarter. But I just wanted to
say that that particular design inspired me to make
the comments to Betty that I did. So there is
something about that that I am not really
understanding that is speaking to me just visually.
It is just gorgeous.
I don't have anything else to say.
Chair Marks: Thank you. Jeanne?
Member Stevens-Sollman: I really want to thank
Betty for -- I will try and speak loud. If I speak
loud, can you hear me? Can you hear me? Is it -oh. Okay.
I will have to multitask here. Okay, thank you. It is
working. Thank you very much. I'm sorry. Again, I
appreciate the information that we received this
time. It just gets better. So thank you.
And I also want just to thank Mr. Johnson and Mr.
Mann for their presentation. It was truly moving.
I really want to speak about the last medal that
Michael mentioned, which was the Seminole Nation.
I was very moved by that. I was very excited about
the presentation of the new -- I feel like we have
new Code Talker Medals this time. This is terribly,

46
terribly exciting for us -- or for me, anyway. It was
very refreshing. And to see the group of Seminole
medals as a whole was great. I do prefer number
on. I think it is more cohesive. I appreciated Mr.
Johnson's explanation about all of this, especially of
the costuming. I think we don't have enough tribal
input when we are making a decision. We often just
look visually.
And to have a better feeling
historically, it was very, very helpful.
So I
absolutely have to go for this.
And again, I support most of the tribal preferences.
I am very happy to know on the reverse of the
Seminole medal that of Oklahoma was the objection
from the tribe.
I felt that number three was
stronger. So if we can look at this medal, I think we
have texture in the medal. We have a bigger image
of the seal. And if we can just insert of Oklahoma
there, this definitely would be my choice.
When we get to the Oglala Sioux, yes, this is the
one preference I sort of have to disagree with. I
think I go with number two because I think it is a
little more interesting. And I hope that that is -- he
seems so determined. And I was not convinced that
number one was a good design for this purpose.
Also, on the reverse -- okay, I would go directly to
number three, which is the CFA's choice and also
the tribe's choice. But I think it is redundant to
have World War II in the center and World War II
again at the bottom. So if we could erase that
World War II in the center, I think we would have a
very positive and wonderful medal.
I think those are probably my only comments that
are different from the tribal preferences, Gary.
Chair Marks: Mike?
Member Olson: Okay. First, I would specifically like
to thank very much the two tribal representatives
for coming. It is really great and I was talking to
both of you before the meeting and telling you
about past experiences we had and I always look

47
forward to these. And I wish all of the tribes could
have been here today to hear from all of them, too.
And specifically, to Mr. Mann, he and I were talking
before the presentation and he did mention his
service in Vietnam. What he didn't tell the group
that he and I shared was Mr. Mann was a dork on a
helicopter. And I think probably everybody has
seen at least a movie or two of what that entails.
And sir, thank you very much for your service.
I am going to agree with a lot of what has already
been said. And this does look like a fresh batch of
material, rather than recycled designs. I see a
couple remnants in here. But in all, a very, very
good body of work and a lot of good choices to
choose from. For the most part, there is really no
objections on my part of what the tribes'
preferences are but I am just going to run down
through a couple of these.
I do want to make special note that the Meskwaki
Tribe is from Iowa, as is stated here. Mr. Bugeja
and myself are both from Iowa. I have had the
pleasure of serving with some members of that tribe
in the Iowa National Guard a very, very good group
of folks. so it is nice to see them being recognized
for their efforts here.
Quickly to the Seminoles, I feel it is very important
and I certainly understand the comment and the
real preference to having "of Oklahoma" on there.
That makes all kinds of sense and I would support a
motion to add that if reverse number three is the
one that is selected, rather than the tribal
preference of number four.
Other than that, Jeanne, good catch on the Oglala,
that one. I totally missed that. But again, if that is
the one that the committee selects, we should look
at a motion to eliminate the World War II in the
center.
That's it. Good work on the designers with this
whole group.

48
Chair Marks:
ready?

Thank you, Michael.

Heidi are you

Member Wastweet: Yes. Well I'm with the rest of
the committee. We try, when we can to go along
with the tribe preferences whenever possible. So
most of these I am going to do likewise. I want to
call out a few points. On Fort Peck Assiniboine and
Sioux Tribes, the tribe preference is for design
number one. I don't have any big objections to
this. I think the helmet could have been a little
smaller but that is just a minor point. I am not
going to belabor that. But I would like to call out
design number four obverse. I'm sorry, I am just
going on the order that I have on my paper.
I think this is a very interesting idea to have this
shallow image behind the stronger image. And I
would just like to send a message back to the artist
that I really appreciate this creativity and this effort.
And I would like to see some more iterations of this
kind of thing in the future.
On the Cherokee Nation obverse, the tribal
preference is for number three. Here, I appreciate
the creativity that the soldier is drawing in the
lettering but I do object to this drawing. I think the
anatomy of this figure is -Ms. Stafford: I'm sorry. May I interrupt? You are
speaking of obverse three, correct?
Member Wastweet: Yes.
Ms. Stafford: There was actually no preference
submitted on the obverses from the tribe.
Member Wastweet: Oh, okay.
Ms. Stafford:
preference.

That was reverse three was their

Member Wastweet: Oh, sorry. Okay, my mistake.
Member Jansen: Hang on a second here. You are
saying they had no preference?

49
Ms. Stafford: The Cherokee Nation submitted not
preference for obverse designs but for the reverse
design, they preferred three.
Member Jansen: Thank you.
Ms. Stafford: Oh, I apologize. Are you sure about
that?
Ms. Birdsong: I can give you what happened was -Member Jansen:
there?

Restate that.

What is correct

Ms. Birdsong: Reverse three.
Member Jansen: Reverse three?
Ms. Birdsong: Yes, we are waiting for their updated
letter but reverse three was their preference and no
preference for the obverse.
Ms. Stafford: Apologies. We should have stated
that it differed from the letter but we are sure about
that.
Ms. Stafford: So that may require a little additional
conversation among us, than since there is no
stated preference.
So on that note, I would like to then talk about
design number two. I think this is a strong design.
And design number five, I like both of these
designs. This one, I think, offers a very interesting
point of view looking down on the soldier. So that
makes it unique. And I think I am going to sway
my vote in that direction because I like the
uniqueness of the angle, although I like design
number two as well.
As I started to say earlier, I don't like number three.
I think it is -- three and four, I would not like to see
either one of those.
Moving forward to Ho-Chunk Nation. We can look
at the tribe preference, design number two. I just

50
want to make an artist's comment here that the
soldier's left hand needs a little work when it gets to
the sculpting phase. And I have full faith in our
artists to tackle with without any alterations to the
artwork but just to make note that that left hand
needs some work. It is very feminine and awkward
looking.
We can look at the tribe's second preference,
number four, which is the CFA's first preference.
Ms. Stafford: We have the CFA's preference as
obverse seven.
Member Wastweet: Seven. Excuse me, seven.
Ms. Stafford: Would you like me to go to seven?
Member Wastweet: Yes, please.
I do prefer this one a little over the tribe's
preference but I not enough to vote against the
tribe preference.
Ms. Stafford:
here. Sorry.

Mr. Mann would like to contribute

Member Wastweet: Great, thank you.
Mr. Mann: We kind of, when we discussed it with
the next of kin, it was a coin toss here. And this
was the other one here. Either/or, whichever -Member Wastweet: You would be fine with either?
Mr. Mann: -- the committee would select.
either one would be okay with us.
Member Wastweet:
that.

But

Thank you for weighing in on

Mr. Mann: Yes, it was a tough decision but either
one.
Member Wastweet: I think as a coin, looking at this
as a coin, not just a drawing, I would prefer design
number seven, along with the CFA. And with the

51
tribe's blessing of going either way, I will sway
toward number seven.
Ms. Stafford: And if I could just add, we do have a
couple of modifications from DoD. So I would like
to note those.
The helmet they note as being too deep. And the
uniform coat collar should be a standing collar, not
a stand-and-fall collar. And the gas mask area
would need to be adjusted so that the flap would be
against the chest. And the cartridge belt would
need to be adjusted to be more in-scale of what is
appropriate. So just for the record.
Member Wastweet: Thank you.
Then again on Ho-Chunk Nation on their preference
reverse, number one. Just as an artist note, I
would like to see the bear rendered a little more
realistically as in the other two designs. So it is
staying within the format of the tribe's choice but
just giving a little added realism to the bear.
I understand that this is probably taken directly
from their patch but as a person coming with fresh
eyes to the coin, they are not going to understand
it. They are just going to not understand why the
bear doesn't look real. So I would like to throw that
in there.
And Meskwaki, the CFA prefers design number two
over the tribe preference of number four. Again, I
think I am going to sway toward the CFA. I will
wait to hear the rest of the committee but that is
where I am standing right now.
While design has a lot of action to it and it looks like
a nice drawing, I think that it poses some sculpting
problems and might not look as well as a sculpture
and I would like Don to weigh in on that.
You think that would be all right? Okay.
(Off the record comments.)

52
Member Jansen:
that DoD?

Is that our option or actually is

Ms. Birdsong: It is actually DoD. It was one of the
comments that they actually -Member Jansen: I see.
Member Wastweet: Okay, so that definitely makes
a difference. If they had technical difficulty, then I
am definitely going to support the tribe's
preference, considering Don's opinion that that will
sculpt out just fine. Okay.
(Off the record comments.)
Member Wastweet: On Seminole Nation, obverse
one. I am going to support the tribe's preference of
number one but I wanted to point out two small
areas. On the collar of the standing warrior, if you
compare it to design number two, there are some
differences at the jaw line on our right-hand side.
And I prefer the jaw line the way it is drawn in
number two. I think that is going to sculpt up
better.
And design number one and I am not sure if there
was intent to that drawing difference but I would
just like to make an artist's point that I would
recommend following the jaw line of design number
two.
Ms. Stafford: Did you want Don to comment?
Member Wastweet: Yes.
(Off the record comments.)
Member Wastweet: If we can flip over to design
number two to see the difference there. Do you
find that this is incorrect, as far as a likeness of
him?
(Off the record comments.)
Member Wastweet: I agree, yes. If we could just

53
have a little more definition on the jaw, like drawing
number two. I think that would improve the overall
look of the sculpture. Do you see what I am talking
about Don? Okay.
The second thing I want to note about this is the
way it is drawn, the tones are equally strong in all
of the characters but I would like to see variation in
the depth, so that there is a little more softness to
the distant characters.
Some of the past coins that we have seen, if
everything is of equal depth and emphasis, then it
gets a little busy. And since there is a lot going on
here, I would encourage the artist who ends up
sculpting this to give a variation in depth to these
characteristics, instead of following just the tonal
values of this drawing. It is a very minor point.
On the Seminole reverse, we have already talked
about design number three versus design number
four, with the addition of the word "of", I am in
favor of that.
On the Oglala Sioux Tribe obverse -Ms. Stafford: I'm sorry. Are we going to Oglala or
Yankton Sioux?
Member Wastweet: Oglala.
Ms. Stafford: Okay.
Member Wastweet:
Obverse one, the tribe
preference. I have no objections to this design. I
think I will go along with the tribe preference but I
wanted to make a note on design number two. I
think this is also a very nice design and perhaps we
could recycle this for one of the other tribes in the
future, rather than letting that slip by because I
think it is a really nice design. Design number one
is not something I would want to discard because it
is the tribe preference. I would just like to suggest
that.

54
And that's it. That concludes my comments.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Heidi. Erik -- or do you
need to go?
Member Scarinci: I can be fast.
Chair Marks: Okay, Donald. Go Donald.
Member Scarinci:
with the tribes?

Betty, were you the interface

Ms. Birdsong: I'm sorry.
Member Scarinci: Were you the interface with the
tribes?
Ms. Birdsong: Yes.
Member Scarinci: I have to tell you, you did an
amazing job with this.
Ms. Birdsong: Thank you.
Member Scarinci: I mean this is a difficult thing to
do. And going back and forth with committees and
passionate people and then interfacing with the
artists and then going back and explaining is just, I
think you did an amazing job. And I think the
artists really got it. And we have dealt with -- I
remember back the first time we dealt with these
medals and it was a tooth-puller. I mean, talk
about coming a long way. We have come a long
way.
And honestly, I think, I actually like some of the
designs here. And these are difficult medals. These
are symbolic. So they are not like -- it is not
something you will find necessarily in a Chelsea art
gallery but they are moving. They are well done.
You have accomplished what you needed to
accomplish with the tribes. I think the tribes are
going to be happy and I think America is going to be
happy with the medals.
And I guess the only -- I guess I

kind of was

55
breathing a sigh when I heard that we are okay -on Ho-Chunk we are okay with number seven on an
obverse because I kind of was thinking that, too.
And I wasn't going to go with it because I wanted to
defer to the tribe that if the tribe is okay with it, I
would go with that.
Where there is no preference in the Cherokee
Nation, I kind of like the last obverse because of the
way the artists handled this circle thing. I kind of
think it makes a nice frame for it and it makes a
nice piece.
And then my only other deviation from what the
tribes are looking for would be in the Yankton Sioux.
I kind of agree with the Commission on Fine Arts on
this one.
And I hate to not do the tribe's
preference. And it could be that I don't want to do
the Tribe's preference because we have seen that
kind of an obverse on all these. And this depiction
of motion and speed. I could see why the CFA was
drawn to it. Was there a passion here with the -was the tribe preference a passionate preference?
Like if they don't get it are they going to be
unhappy?
Ms. Birdsong: I can go back and give them all the
feedback but they were a little passionate about
they defined that they want it. But I can go back
and give them a feedback.
Member Scarinci:
About
passionate about four.

four?

They

were

Ms. Birdsong: Yes.
Member Scarinci: Okay, that is actually -- I mean, I
am done. Thank you. Good job.
Member Jansen: All right, Gary had to step out for
a minute so he asked me to come on next while he
is dealing with a logistical problem.
Member Wastweet: Can I intersect with a question
--

56
Member Jansen: You bet.
Member Wastweet: -- about that last comment?
Am I understanding correct that the CFA preference
was number two, right?
Member Scarinci: On the Yankton Sioux?
Member Wastweet: Yes.
Member Scarinci:
number two.
Member Wastweet:
four.
Member Scarinci:
number four.

Yes, the CFA preference was
And the tribe preference was
And the tribe preference was

Member Wastweet:
with?

And you are in agreement

Member Scarinci: The CFA is right.
Member Wastweet: You like the CFA choice.
Member Scarinci: You know, artistically I think the
CFA is right. I think this is a really cool design. I
think -- I love the way it depicts motion. And I
think the tribe, in the end, might very well be
happier with this but I know what went into it and I
know we have done this now for a while and kind of
know what is going on on the other side. So I am
torn. I am probably going to -- I don't know. I will
probably go with two.
Member Stevens-Sollman:
number four?

Can we go back to

Member Scarinci: Yes.
Member Stevens-Sollman: I think what is very
beautiful about this particular piece and I did not
address it when I had my chance but I love this
piece because it is in the circle but out of the circle.
It is very simple. It is complex but simple.

57
So although number two is very exciting, and I have
to agree, I think this one is quite beautifully done.
And I am going to put my vote with this because
the circle drops off. It doesn't go all the way
around. It is a little unusual.
So I think the artist really kind of tried very hard to
make the imagery integrate into the second circle.
Member Jansen: Did you feel the same way, Heidi,
about four?
Member Wastweet: I do like the design of four. It
is not extraordinarily different but it is subtly nice.
I think maybe the reason that the tribe went in that
direction is design number one doesn't really
represent code talker. It is the soldier running from
bullets. I am attracted to the pattern that is formed
by the bullets zinging by. I am attracted to the
action. I think it is drawn in a stylized interesting
way but it doesn't really say code talker. So that
kind of loses a point.
Member Scarinci: Yes, that's true. That is a good
point.
Then I am going to go with the tribe preference as
well on this. I think I am reacting. And I was
concerned when I was looking at this that I am
reacting to -- I mean, whatever artist did this, did
number two, is really good. And so I am reacting to
I like number two and we haven't seen this on one
of these medals but I see what you are saying
about number four.
Member Wastweet: It's a shame.
Member Scarinci: And since the tribe likes it, likes
four, I am inclined to go with the tribe on these
medals.
Thank you.
Member Jansen: All right, Gary had to step out. So
he asked me to step in here next and then I will go

58
to Michael Moran next.
First of all, I want to say thanks to April and Betty
and all you guys. We are in a whole different class
of strength of the art, of numbers of selection. You
guys clearly put reasserted energies into getting
these in and it shows. I mean it is night and day.
Thank you.
Second of all, I want to say thanks to Mr. Johnson
and Mr. Mann for being here. Mr. Johnson, do all of
your tribal members sing as well as you do?
Mr. Johnson: Probably better.
(Laughter.)
Member Jansen:
impossible.

I would find that necessarily

Mr. Johnson:
Well, we usually sing altogether,
instead of solo.
Member Jansen: Well I would just say if it is
genetic, God blessed you and if it is not, God bless
you.
So thank you very much for being here, guys. Your
words just, I mean they strengthen not only my
appreciation for your legacies but in many ways
those that I lack. So, thank you.
I am going to actual designs. I want to echo some
comments that a prior member made on the use of
symbols. I think, Donald, you mentioned that. And
on the use of relief and the subtlety in the
backdrop, and I think Heidi mentioned that.
I do like design number four here, although not so
strong that I will go against the tribal preference of
number one on the obverse for the Fort Peck. But
this shadowed image in the background above the
helmet on number four, and I am going to call out
another design similarly to it, I commend the artist.
Please show up again and show up often and
challenge our sculpting decisions to make designs

59
with the subtlety in the field matter.
And to that point, I will also challenge the sculpting
team on all of these designs with the size of our
pallet here. I continue to want to challenge the
quest for dye life with the need for artistic
expression. On low-volume products like this, I
think it is less of a technical versus artistic
challenge. On high-volume circulation coinage is
where the rubber really meets the road on my
comments. But I would assure you that coinage
every day that is seen by people every day has an
incremental positive or negative feeling on the
quality of this country's circulating coinage.
Let me say that differently.
Relief and quality
matters, even when we are making five billion
copies of Lincoln's shoulder on a penny. Relief does
matter. And I appreciate you want to make dye life
but our job here on the Citizens Coinage Advisory
Committee is to stick to what matters. And I think
quality and relief does matter in the sculpting and in
the production. So I will get off my soapbox.
Reverse four, the Fort Peck, I am going to yield to
the tribal preference here on this, just for the pure
sake of going with three instead of four. I love the
way the rivers are drawn out on that and I hope
that when we sculpt that, that that contrast comes
out and doesn't disappear into a couple thousand's
tradeoff.
Let's see here. I want to move down to Ho-Chunk.
I am going to skip over the Cherokee Nation. I am
fine with the preferences there and what has been
said.
On Ho-Chunk number one, again, we have got this
eagle in the backdrop, which I am going to vote for
number two, out of respect for the tribal preference.
But I really love the artistic endeavor here to put
that eagle there and come back, whoever the artist
is on this one, come back early and often with more
ideas like that and let's raise the bar on the
sculpting challenge.

60
I am going to skip through several of the rest. I will
go to the Seminole Nation on the obverse. My
opinion on this was going to be different than it
turns out to be. I am going to go with the tribal
preference on number one. And the simple reason
is I now understand the character being
characterized. I love the sheer artistic value in the
portrait on number four. I just thought that was a
powerful side portrait but it is not the right portrait
for this coin. So thank you to the tribe for sending
representation to help me understand that.
Finally, I am going to go to the Yankton Sioux Tribe
on the obverse here. A couple of comments. I
have always liked design number one, with the two
soldiers speaking to each other. I just think that is
a striking piece of art on a large pallet like this. I
mean that is an "oh my goodness" kind of use of a
large pallet. But I only say that because I like the
art. I would like to see it brought back again, if we
have the need for such a thing.
Number two, the CFA's choice with action and all.
Boy, the physiology here just doesn't work for me,
guys. I look at that picture and I just kind of am
not happy with the artwork. So, if that is the
committee's choice, I am going to invite the
committee to address that in some kind of a
recommendation or a modification to the sculpting
charge. I am going to vote for number four, myself.
And finally, I am going to go to the reverse on the
Yankton, which is a singular or rather just two
choices. I can see why the CFA went with number
one. That is a beautiful design in my book. We
have got the triangular skull with the texturing
calling out, the four quadrants in the backdrop,
feathers coming down. That is a beautiful design.
Having said that, I am going to vote for the second
one. And I am going to vote for less than what I
think is the best artistic rendering because I think
this has cultural value and I want to respect the
tribe's preference.

61
With that, I will only go for a technical comment on
the Oglala Sioux. On the reverse, I think it was
called out that there is a recommendation to look at
the reverse number three. I will let the image
selector catch up with me. There we go.
Okay, on reverse number three, the comment was
to edit out the World War II -- there we go -incuse. And I think if you do that -- I said World
War II incuse, didn't I? If you do that, I think this
becomes design number four, does it not?
So rather than -- let's keep our job simple here. If
you want to vote for three with the incuse removed,
just vote for four. Am I correct? Okay, good.
Those are my comments. Once again, thank you
for the symbols. Thank you for shepherding the
artists towards symbols. Night and day.
Mr. Everhart: I'd like to hear something from Betty
-- the one that has World War II in it. The tribe
actually requested that that be put in the middle.
And for some reason, I don't know where along the
lines, but the World War II was on the arc and not
in the middle. So that was actually their request
was to put World War II in the middle, where it is.
Member Jansen: And strike it from the arc?
Mr. Everhart: Yes, and strike the arc.
Member Jansen: Okay, so am I off base here,
based on the commentary earlier, was to strike it in
the arc?
Mr. Everhart: Yes.
Member Jansen: Okay, excuse me then. So never
mind.
Michael Moran.
Ms. Stafford: Mr. Moran, are you going to begin at
the beginning? Should I go ahead and start? Your
comments, should I go back to the very beginning

62
with Fort Peck and Assiniboine?
Member Moran: No.
Ms. Stafford: Okay.
Member Moran:
quick, April.
Ms. Stafford:
Thank you.

I'm going to be very simple and

I will follow you.

Go ahead, then.

Member Moran: There is some beauty in these
coming last or near last. You don't have to repeat
everybody's comments.
First of all, an observation. I began to wonder as
we went through this program how many different
ways we could do code talkers. And I saw, as I
opened up these, that there are a lot of other
different ways. The level of creativity is there.
I think there is one key thing that I noticed out of
these. We have got a sense of motion incorporated
in these in one way or another, in one design
element or another that really sets these apart from
the others.
And I don't know what happened,
whether somebody got infused with more drive to
get this done, but I am all for it. You can get numb
with guys with old fashioned telephones in their
hand, drawing after drawing, rendering after
rendering. These don't do that. And I am really
pleased and happy for the tribes who got this.
I have one caution for the designers. And again,
April, I am glad you are running this by the DoD.
We need to get our weaponry right, whether it is a
Springfield bolt-action or an M1 or an M14. An M14
should not be here.
Also, our theater of operation needs to be right.
There are a couple of these that weren't chosen that
were wrong, as well as the right headgear for the
right war.
Now then, again, I am going to abide by the spirit of

63
the tribal choices with one exception.
the Meskwaki obverse number four.
there, guys. I just can't.

That one is
I can't get

I know Don said that will coin up. It is story board
to me. It is well-sketched. I just can't get there.
Enough being said. That is my opinion.
I also want to thank Heidi for the little touches that
she always has in terms of improving these designs,
even though they might be a tribal choice. There
are other little things there that need to be done to
just make these pop out really well. Her comment
about changing the relief on the three figures, thank
you.
Chair Marks: Thomas?
Member Uram: First of all, Betty and April, thanks.
Great work on all the research and everything on
really, all the coordination and so forth.
And Mr. Mann and Mr. Johnson, I really learned a lot
this morning. Also, I think this is more beneficial to
us than we realize as far as the history and so forth.
I am not going to reiterate any of the -- I agree
with most of my colleagues' comments in regards to
some of the designs and changes. And I am very
much in favor of what the tribe has decided upon,
based on their recommendations. The only thing
that I would have said was that I kind of like the
wolves, except maybe the way they are depicted.
But it could have been nicely incorporated because
they did represent safety to the tribe. But that
would have been the only comment that I have.
And once again, a job well done. And thanks for
being here.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Tom.
I am the last one to go. And I want to thank the
committee for a thorough review. There is not
much that I have to add to the discussion, as many
of the comments I would make have already been

64
made.
Pretty much, with maybe an exception or two, I will
be supporting the tribal preferences. So with that, I
am going to ask the committee members to
complete their scoring sheets. And if you would
pass those into Erik.
We were scheduled to look at the America the
Beautiful Quarter Program at 11:15 and have a
lunch break at 12:15. So in light of the fact that it
is nearly 12:15, what I am going to ask is that we
pick up the America the Beautiful Program
immediately after lunch. And if time does not allow,
then we are going to move the Fiscal Year Annual
Report to the next meeting. So we will just see how
that works out.
So at this point, I believe once we have the scoring
in for the Code Talker Medals, that there may well
be additional motions to address some technical
issues that have been identified through our
discussion. So we won't know that information as
far as which ones we are recommending, until after
lunch.
So first thing after lunch is we will finish up on the
code talkers as far as any motions that may need to
be made on specific obverse and reverse designs.
And then we will move into the America the
Beautiful Program.
We are scheduled to be back here at 1:30 and I will
ask everyone to try to be timely with that. As soon
as I have a quorum in the room, I will start the
meeting, if it is after 1:30.
So with that, we are in recess for lunch. Thank you.
(Whereupon, at 12:12 p.m., a lunch recess was
taken.)

65

Afternoon Session
(1:33 p.m.)
Chair Marks: I'm calling the meeting back to order.
We have results from our code talker evaluation and

66
I am going to go through those now. The first one
is the Fort Peck and Sioux Tribes obverse. I should
add that with nine members voting and three
possible points per member, the highest possible
point total is 27. So that will give you a frame of
reference when I read off these scores, compared to
27.
On the obverse for Fort Peck, number one received
25. And I believe that was the preference of the
tribe, obverse one. Obverse two received one vote,
obverse three received three, obverse four received
nine, and five received zero.
On the reverse, the tribe preference was design
number three and it received 26. So very strong,
26 of 27. Reverse one received zero; reverse two,
one;
reverse four received three.
So our
recommendation will be reverse three.
Going to the Cherokee Nation, tribal preference was
for number three -- no. There was no preference.
This one has no preference. I stand corrected.
So on obverse one there was zero; two received
nine votes; three received three; four received five;
and five, obverse five received 18 points and by
that indication, it would be our recommendation.
Reverse number one, again this is for the Cherokee
Nation. Reverse one received three. Reverse two
received five. Reverse three received 24 and is our
recommendation. And I think I am correct that that
was the tribal preference. Reverse four received
zero. Reverse five received zero.
Moving on to the Ho-Chunk Nation. The preference
was number two.
And starting with obverse
number one, it received eight points; reverse
number two received 14; reverse three received
one; four received one; five zero; six zero; and
reverse seven received 21, which would be this
committee's recommendation. And I do believe we
have received word from the representative from
the nation that seven was also one that was

67
considered in their calculations.
The reverse for Ho-Chunk, the tribe preference -I'm sorry reverse. Hold on a minute. The reverse
was number one. The committee voted 26 points
for number one. Reverse two received zero and
three received two. So reverse one would be our
recommendation.
Going on to the Meskwaki Nation.
The tribal
preference was number four.
So starting with
obverse number one, they received two points.
Obverse two received six; obverse three, zero;
obverse four received 20, which would be our
recommendation and coincides with the tribal
selection.
Going to the reverse, the tribal preference was
number three.
Starting with reverse one, it
received one point; reverse two received six;
reverse three received 24 and is our committee's
recommendation.
Going to the Seminole Nation, the
Nation's
preference was obverse number one.
The
committee -Ms. Stafford: I'm sorry. Could I just ask you mean
Seminole or Oglala?
Member Jansen: They are out of sequence.
Ms. Stafford: Okay, apologies.
Chair Marks: Yes, sorry about that.
Anyway, obverse one was the Nation's preference
and the committee provided it a perfect score of 27.
Obverse number two received zero; 2B received
zero; three received three; obverse four received
three; obverse five, zero.
Moving on to the reverse. The Nation's preference
there was four. Reverse four, am I correct on that?
Ms. Stafford: Yes.

68
Chair Marks: Before I read off these scores, there
was discussion that if "of Oklahoma" was added to
number three, that that was something that the
nation could support. So, beginning with reverse
number one, it received four points; reverse two
received zero; reverse three received 23 and would
be our recommendation. I am assuming that we
will make a motion subsequent to this to add "of" to
the inscription. Reverse four receive eight; reverse
five, zero; and reverse six, zero.
Going to the Yankton Sioux, the tribe preference
was obverse four. Beginning with obverse one, it
received three; two received four; obverse three
received two; obverse four received 24 and will be
the committee's recommendation.
And reverses
five and six both received zero.
On the reverse for Yankton, the tribal preference
was for two, reverse two. The committee assigned
14 points to reverse one and 20 votes to reverse
two. So the recommendation would coincide with
the tribe's pick.
That takes us to Oglala. The tribe preference was
obverse one. The committee assigned 23 points to
obverse one. Obverse two received 14 and obverse
three received one.
On the reverse, the tribe preferred number three,
beginning with reverse number one and two, both
received zero. Reverse three received 24 and will
be the CCAC's recommendation.
Reverse four
received four; reverse five received two points; and
reverse six received zero.
So, that was the totality of the scoring. Are there
any questions on any of that?
Member Stevens-Sollman: Yes, just on the last
Oglala reverse. We would like to recommend that
World War II be struck on the arc.
Member Olson: So three got the most votes for
that one? Because four would have been --

69
Chair Marks: You were talking about the reverse?
Member Olson: Yes.
Chair Marks: That was number three that received
24 points.
Member Stevens-Sollman: But that was the tribe's
choice?
Chair Marks: That was the tribe's choice, yes.
Member Stevens-Sollman: And what we wanted to
do is instead of taking World War II out of the
center, was take World War II out of the bottom
circle there.
Chair Marks: Right.
Member Stevens-Sollman:
So do we have
recommend that or are they going to do that
already?
Chair Marks: It is the same net affect, however we
approached it, as far as removing one of the World
War -Member Stevens-Sollman:
Right, we have to
remove one. So I move that we accept obverse
three but we move World War II from the lower part
of the -Member Olson: Second.
Member Moran: Okay, it has been moved and
seconded to remove World War II from the
perimeter of reverse design number three. Is there
any discussion on the motion?
Hearing none, all those in favor please indicate by
saying aye.
(Chorus of aye.)
Chair Marks: Opposed?
(No audible response.)

70
Chair Marks:
The motion carries. Any other
comments or motions?
Member Moran: Do you want a motion on the
reverse of the Seminole?
Chair Marks: Yes, I believe that is actually needed.
Member Moran: Consider the motion made to add
the word "of".
Chair Marks: I am going to pause just a moment to
let our motion taker get this recorded.
Okay, so the motion is to include the word "of"
before the word Oklahoma.
Member Jansen:
number three --

So this is to modify design

Chair Marks: Reverse three. Modify reverse three
to add the word "of" just before the word
Oklahoma.
Member Moran: So as to be as four, right?
Chair Marks: Yes. So it has been moved and
seconded. Thank you. And so it would then read in
its totality around that ring, "Seminole Nation of
Oklahoma."
Is there any discussion on that motion?
(No audible response.)
Chair Marks: All those in favor, please indicate by
saying aye.
(Chorus of aye.)
Chair Marks: Opposed?
(No audible response.)
Chair Marks: Motion carries. Thank you.
Member Jansen:

Excuse me, who was the second

71
on that?
Member Olson: I was.
Chair Marks: It was Mr. Olson.
Member Jansen: Were you the second on the other
one as well?
Member Olson: Yes, I keep coming in second.
Someday, I will be first.
Member Jansen: There is a name for guys like you.
Chair Marks: Yes, it's called coming in second.
Okay, so are there other comments or motions?
Did you have something?
Member Scarinci: No, no, no.
say what that means.

I just said I won't

(Laughter.)
Chair Marks: Any other discussion on the Code
Talker Medals?
(No audible response.)
Chair Marks: Okay, I want to thank our guests of
today and the wonderful messages they brought us.
They were inspiring and very helpful to our
deliberations. And I know that I will take a lot of
that with me. And I mean this seriously, I leave as
a bit of a changed person because of the input you
gave me today. So thank you very much.
Mr. Johnson: May I make a comment?
Chair Marks: Yes, sir.
Mr. Johnson: This may not be the place to do it but
this gentleman told me to.
(Laughter.)
Mr. Johnson: Just on obverse side one. Where his

72
hair is, can the artist kind of make it a little more
balanced on the one side? Because it appears to
me that the artist may have taken a photograph
image and reversed it and that makes his hair on
the right side look a lot different.
Chair Marks:
screen?

Is it possible to get that on the

Member Jansen: Could you start over again, Mr.
Johnson and speak into a microphone?
Mr. Johnson: I don't know if this is the right place
to say this but this gentleman told me to. No, just
kidding. You said to start over.
(Laughter.)
Mr. Johnson: I am just talking about this point right
here and from the sculptor's point of view, if they
could just balance it out a little bit so it doesn't look
so butch cut there.
Member Wastweet: Should the short side be longer
or the long side be shorter, or both?
Mr. Johnson: This should be a little longer.
Member Wastweet: Longer, okay.
Yes, I think that that going on the record is enough
to make that happen.
Mr. Johnson: Yes, it would look more balanced that
way.
Member Wastweet: Yes, thank you.
Mr. Johnson:
Thanks.

I do appreciate your consideration.

Chair Marks: Okay. And we will just consider that
part of the record and I see Don Everhart was
shaking his head, so we are in good hands there.
Okay, are there any other comments or even
motions on the Code Talker Medals?

73
Ms. Stafford: I just wanted to note, I believe a
committee member requested or wanted to know if
it was possible for us to have a photographer take
pictures with our guests. Is that correct, Betty?
Ms. Birdsong:
Heidi, if you wanted to take a
photograph and we can email it to you. James is
here. Anyone else?
Chair Marks: We are talking about a group photo?
Is that -Ms. Birdsong:
individual.

A group would be good or anyone

Chair Marks: Okay, would we recess the meeting?
A five-minute recess.
Okay, we are really pressed for time, folks. So it
needs to be a five-minute recess. Okay, we are
recessed.
(Whereupon, the foregoing meeting went off the
record at 1:47 p.m. and went back on the record at
1:53 p.m.)
Review and Discuss Design Direction for the 2015
America the Beautiful Quarters Program
Chair Marks: Okay, we are back in order. The next
item on our agenda is the review and discussion for
design direction for the 2015 America The Beautiful
Quarters Program. April Stafford is going to give us
a report. April.
Ms. Stafford: Yes, and as I mentioned earlier, Leslie
Schwager is the program manager and Don
Everhart also met with the parks and formally made
conference calls. So if there is anything that they
have to add or if there is any questions, they can
also provide input.
So we will start with Homestead National Monument
of America in Beatrice, Nebraska.
Homestead
National Monument of America was created in 1936
to commemorate the people whose lives were

74
forever altered by the Homestead Act and the
settlement of the west.
The Homestead Act of 1862 has been cited as one
of the three most powerful pieces of legislation ever
created in the United States of America.
The passage of the Homestead Act resulted in the
United States government giving a total of more
than 270 million acres of land to those who would
settle in one of America's 30 homesteading states.
This Act had an impact on millions of lives. Those
who accepted the challenge had to live on the land
and farm it for at least five years. This contributed
to the agricultural and industrial revolution. New
transportation, communication, and educational
opportunities developed from the passage of the
legislation.
The Homestead Act enabled former slaves to own
property and it created women landowners before
women had the right to vote. It was a law that
encouraged immigration to take place in the United
States.
Blake Bell, historian at the Homestead National
Monument of America, calls the Homestead Act an
accommodating immigration law because the law
required the land to be farmed for five years, which
is the same amount of time for an immigrant to
become a citizen.
Homestead
National
Monument
of
America
represents many of the building blocks of our
country. It is the site of the first homestead in the
United States, granted to Mr. Daniel Freeman. On
January 1, 1863 at midnight, Mr. Freeman filed an
official claim for the land under the Homestead Act.
The law endured for 123 years, with the peak
homesteading
years
coinciding
with
peak
immigration years in the 1910s.
Through informal discussions with representatives
from the Homestead National Monument, we have
identified the following monument features as

75
possible devices for the 2015 ATB Homestead
National Park Quarter:
A plow moving through wheat fields.
The Heritage Center at Homestead National
Monument. This building was designed to represent
the Homestead Act.
The roof was designed to
resemble sod being pushed upward by the blade of
a plow. The roof point is aimed directly west, to
symbolize America's westward expansion.
Influence of the Homestead Act on industrialization
and agriculture, and representation of, or
symbology associated with the Homestead Act.
The Homestead Act viewed from an aerial
perspective. Homestead land creates the illusion of
patchwork quilts from the sky. These are the plots
which were granted homestead status.
And that is it for Homestead National Monument.
Did you want to discuss that?
Chair Marks: No, let's do all five and then we will
circle back and have an all-inclusive discussion.
Ms. Stafford: Okay. The next is Kisatchie National
Forest, Alexandria, Louisiana. Kisatchie National
Forest contains 604,000 acres of land spread across
seven parishes in Louisiana. The National Forest is
home to bayous, bald cypress groves, old grown
pine, endangered and threatened species, and 400
miles of trails.
It also contains a nationallydesignated wild and scenic river, the Saline Bayou
and the Kisatchie Bayou.
The forest is known for its long-leaf pine trees and
is the only federally-designated forest in the State
of Louisiana.
Kisatchie Forest is known for its multiple uses.
Visitors can engage in many types of activities, such
as mountain biking, canoeing, wildlife viewing,
hunting, fishing, hiking and swimming.

76
In January 2012, Alexandria, Louisiana was selected
by National Geographic as one of the best
adventure towns in the United States.
This
selection was based on all of the adventures which
can be experienced on the 604,000 acres of
Kisatchie National Forest. According to National
Geographic, one of these adventures includes either
backpacking or mountain biking of the 31 wild
azalea trail to see Kisatchie's trademark bogs,
dogwoods, and azaleas.
Through informal discussions with representatives
of the Kisatchie National Forest, we have identified
the following forest features as possible devices for
the Kisatchie National Forest Quarter:
The boardwalk through the woods.
The Longleaf Vista recreation area. Here, visitors
can enjoy picnicking under larger pines, taking in
the breathtaking panoramic views of the Kisatchie
hills wilderness area from a stone gazebo.
The
endangered
red
cockaded
woodpecker.
According to the National Forest Service, this is a
small bird and it is very special to the Kisatchie
Forest.
In
addition,
the
Kisatchie
Forest
Service
representatives noted a management focus on
endangered species, the threatened Louisiana pine
snake.
The Saline Bayou, a federally-designated wild and
scenic river. One can kayak or canoe on this river,
depending on the water level. The river banks are
lined with cypress and hardwood trees.
The Kisatchie Bayou.
Six miles of sandstone
outcropping can be found along this river. This river
is enjoyed by those who want to go tubing or
swimming.
And a wild turkey or turkeys. The Forest contains a
healthy population of wild turkeys.

77
Next is Blue Ridge Parkway, North Carolina. Work
on the Blue Ridge Parkway began in the 1930s. It
extends 469 miles along the crests of the Southern
Appalachians and was created as a link between
Shenandoah National Park and Great Smoky
Mountains National Park. According to the National
Park Service, the Blue Ridge Parkway is the most
visited national park service area.
The Parkway, appearing long and narrow on a map,
is a configuration of exceptional views and vistas
meandering down the Blue Ridge and other
Appalachian Mountain chains between Shenandoah
National Park and Great Smoky Mountains National
Park.
The Parkway weaves through 29 counties located in
Virginia and North Carolina, protecting valuable
plant and animal species and serving as an
economic boost for regional tourism. Much of the
designed landscape and scenic views were the work
of
the
Cornell
University-trained
landscape
architects who also designed the Westchester
Parkway in New York State.
As the Great Depression hit America and work on
the Westchester Parkway came to an end, these
architects lost their jobs. In search of work, they
headed to the Blue Ridge Parkway, a public project
of Roosevelt's New Deal. These architects helped to
create a planned landscape, down to the smallest
detail. The landscape architects, engineers, and
private contractors worked hand in hand to create
the rhythm of the road that makes the parkway so
special for all that enjoy it today. The National Park
Service refers to the Blue Ridge Parkway landscape
architecture as a painting on the landscape.
According to the National Park Service, keeping
magnificent views to the horizon as they were
intended in the early days is a challenge that will
continue for years to come.
Through informal discussions with representatives
from the Blue Ridge Parkway, we have identified the

78
following Parkway features as possible devices:
The Parkway's distinctive stonework, including the
stone arch bridges and tunnel portals.
The
stonework is found throughout the national site and
is iconic to the Blue Ridge Parkway design. The
stonework was built by Italian and Spanish
immigrant stone masons. Some of the stonework
can be seen at the tunnel portals and/or bridges
that cross the Parkway which were built around the
1930s and 1940s. The detail in the stonework is
integral to the picturesque design of the Parkway
and adds to its beauty.
And the Linn Cove Viaduct. The Linn Cove Viaduct
is recognized nationally and internationally as an
engineering marvel. It has won numerous design
awards. It is one of the most popular spots along
the Blue Ridge Parkway.
A museum for the bridge is located at the south end
of the viaduct, where the public can explore the
building of the bridge.
The construction was
commissioned to protect the fragile environment of
Grandfather Mountain, an international biosphere
preserve.
It is often referred to as the most
complicated bridge ever built, as it was the first
bridge to be constructed from the top down to
protect the environment.
Next is Bombay Hook National Wildlife Refuge from
Smyrna, Delaware. Bombay Hook National Wildlife
Refuge stretches eight miles along the Delaware
Bay. It covers 16,251 acres, which include tidal salt
marshes, meadows, mud flats, tidal pools, rivers,
creeks, and tidal streams. Visitors to the refuge can
drive a 12-mile round trip auto tour and/or walk
along five different walking trails. The refuge offers
opportunities
for
wildlife
observation
and
photography, hunting and environmental education
and interpretation programs.
The refuge boardwalk trail offers visitors an
opportunity to view the tidal salt marshes that cover
80 percent of the refuge. According to the Fish and

79
Wildlife Service, the tidal salt marshes are among
the refuge's most important assets. It is important
to note that the refuge is managed for migratory
birds. The key migratory species include Canada
and snow geese, black duck, and the Great Blue
Heron. Whether driving or walking through the
refuge, a visitor can expect to see tidal creeks that
meander through the marsh.
There are three observation tours that offer visitors
an elevated view of the refuge landscape. Most of
the refuge visitors come for the birding
opportunities.
Through informal discussions with representatives
from Bombay Hook, we have identified the following
Refuge features as possible devices:
View of the tidal salt marshes from an observation
tour or the boardwalk. Tidal salt marshes cover 80
percent of the refuge. These salt marshes are
emblematic of the refuge.
The tidal salt marshes, possibly with the winding
creek in the background.
One of the three key migratory bird species found
on the refuge. Again, snow geese, the black duck,
and the Great Blue Heron.
And representation of birding or bird watching. The
refuge is recognized as an important birding area by
the American Bird Conservancy.
And lastly, we have Saratoga National Historical
Park in Saratoga, New York. Saratoga National
Historical Park was designated a national site in
1938. It commemorates the beginning of the end
of the Revolutionary War, which led to eventual
formation of the United States. Battles of Saratoga
have often been referred to as the most important
battle of the last 1,000 years and one of the 15
most decisive battles in world history.
General background information from the National

80
Park Service is as follows. The turning point of the
Revolutionary War happened in the small upstate
New York village called Saratoga. British plans to
conquer their rebelling American subjects were
reversed there in the fall of 1777, as two pitched
battles, the Battles of Saratoga, resulted in a
staggering defeat of the King's troops.
The ruined British Army, led by General John
Burgoyne, retreated eight miles north of Saratoga,
present day Schuylerville, where they were pursued
and besieged by an ever-growing American Army
commanded by General Horatio Gates. Running out
of food, morale, and hope, the British sued for
peace and agreed to terms of surrender.
Over 6,000 defeated men, women, and children
trudged into captivity on the 17th of October, 1777,
while the enemy Commanders Gates and Burgoyne
met and dined in comfort. In an act illustrative of
both victory and defeat, Burgoyne tended his sword
to Gates, who afterward returned it in humble
gratitude.
With news of the Saratoga victory, France allied
itself with the United States. The Spain later joined
the war against England, as did the Netherlands.
Battles raged on land and sea, as these European
powers and their allies fought for the domination of
Newfoundland, Florida, the Mississippi Valley, the
Bahamas, Nicaragua, English Channel, Gibraltar,
Majorca, Senegal, The Gambia, India, and Sri
Lanka. It was from this World War that the United
States was formed.
Britain could no longer afford to focus its might on
the revolution taking place in America and FrancoAmerican alliance aid in the form of money, war
material, and military support, led to the final
victory at Yorktown, Virginia.
According to the National Park Service, the visual
manifestation
of
this
unprecedented
and
monumental surrender at Saratoga is John
Trumbell's 1821 masterpiece painting surrender of

81
General Burgoyne, which hangs in the United States
Capitol Rotunda in Washington, D.C. This iconic
image has been used in postage stamps throughout
Africa and three times in the United States. It
remains as one of few military events to be
previously depicted on United States currency in
1875 and its release on the reverse of the America
the Beautiful Quarter marks an unprecedented
second appearance.
Through informal discussions with representatives
from the Saratoga National Historical Park, we have
identified the following Parkway features as possible
devices:
The sword surrender site. Saratoga recently added
the sword surrender site to the National Historical
Park. A bronze casting of John Trumbell's painting
of General Burgoyne's surrender to General Gates
will be permanently displayed at the site.
The 22-acres site includes the famous grassy hill
where the surrender took place. At the top of the
hill, the National Park Service has planted a marker
to commemorate the surrender, nearly 236 years
ago.
The 1775 Neilson House served as an American
Major General Benedict Arnold's headquarters.
Battle reenactments at the park. Reenactments are
held twice each fall on the anniversary of the two
battles.
The Philip Schuyler House. The restored county
house of American General Philip Schuyler is one of
the several sites which makes up Saratoga National
Historical Park.
The Schuyler House was the
residence of General Philip Schuyler, Major General
in the Revolutionary War. The late Georgian early
federal style house was the center of his vast timber
and agricultural estate.
The Saratoga Monument.
This monument
commemorates the American victory in the Battle of

82
Saratoga. Stone and sediment materials were used
to create a 150-foot obelisk structure.
Mr. Chairman, that concludes the notes. Let's turn
it over for discussion.
Chair Marks: Thank you, April. I think I am just
going to jump in here and each member who wants
to contribute to this discussion will. We will just
take you as you are prepared to speak.
I am going to go ahead and kind of lead off this
discussion.
At previous meetings, it has been
agreed that this America the Beautiful Program is a
difficult one to create in that when we think about
national parks and sites and historical monuments
and the sort, those are things that give themselves
to grand photographs or paintings on a large scale.
And to take some of those images and try to put
them onto a quarter dollar coin can be very difficult
because it is such a small pallet from where we are
working from.
So and we have also said this before, that when we
are talking about small coins, oftentimes, the best
images are those that are emblematic or symbolic
or iconic.
And so as I did some research for these five sites
prior to the meeting, there were some things that
struck me that I wanted to contribute to the
discussion.
First, I wanted to comment on the materials that
were provided to us here and just read into the
record.
Starting with the Homestead National
Monument, when we look at the suggested features
for possible devices on the quarter, the one that
jumps out to me as a real possibility is a plow
moving through wheat field. And that is an image, I
think, that we could probably pull off very
successfully with some good detail, as long as it
wasn't too small. The plow is actually very large in
the design.

83
The others, and we start getting into monuments
and viewscapes and all of that, I just have trouble
with that. I don't think that putting -- I mean
someone has said it before. It is like putting a
postcard on a coin and a postcard is much larger.
Even the comment in the report here suggesting
that because something has been on a postage
stamp, is that appropriate for a coin?
Well a
postage stamp has color and oftentimes is larger in
some ways to what we are talking about here on a
quarter.
So, I would urge us, as much as possible to stay
away from depictions of scenery and even buildings
and monuments. I would like to look for those
smaller objects that when you put them on a coin
and you create a clean image that doesn't have a
lot of clutter in it, then you get something, I think,
that can be very successful, like the plow.
The last item there, the symbology associated with
the Homestead Act, I would be interested to know
what that symbology is. Maybe there is something
very creative that could be done with that.
Then the other image that came to mind -- and
tried hard to remember this. But some years ago I
was watching a movie and in the movie, in the
context of the movie, the Homestead Act came into
play into the storyline. And it showed a bunch of
folks lining up like on a start line and they were
going to -- yes, the land office was putting on the
competition and everyone came out to a certain
location at a certain time. They were on horseback,
they were on wagon, and they were on foot. And
these people all lined up like it was a big race. And
there was a gun that was shot off and people just
shot off trying to be the first one to get to the prime
parcels of property.
Now, if that is historically accurate, I think a
wonderful image would be a wagon with horsedrawn wagon in motion, in fast motion, as if running
a race to get to a parcel that was created by the

84
Homestead Act. Maybe someone on horseback or
someone running. I don't know. But a smaller
image than looking at a building.
I had a thought that I then purged from thinking.
And that was to show one of the grass sod cabins.
But I don't want to go there because that would
look too much like Lincoln's cabin. And I think that
for the brief exposure that some of these images
have when an American receives a quarter in
change and they see a building there, I am not sure
that is really going to convey a unique message.
Member Stevens-Sollman: But it is a sod house.
Chair Marks: A sod house.
Member Stevens-Sollman:
has got grass on top.

It is very different.

It

Chair Marks: Well but what I am saying, Jeanne, is
on a small quarter when you see a square building
with a roof on it, I'm not sure how much different
that looks from a log cabin to a sod house. I don't
know. But personally, I would like to stay away
from that.
So we then move on to the Kisatchie National
Forest.
Ms. Stafford: Mr. Chairman, sorry to interrupt. I
just wanted to throw in there because when we met
with the parks, I actually asked that very question
from the movie. My recollection -Chair Marks: You saw it, too?
Ms. Stafford: Yes, sir, I did. And I asked that very
question and I was thinking what dynamic elements
there might be. And Leslie, correct me if I am
wrong, but they seem to just very subtly bristle at
the idea that that is not really how it happened.
People came into the office, created an application
and it was processed very matter-of-factly.
But to your point, they did react very favorable to

85
the idea of some kind of symbology associated with
the Homestead Act, specifically the aerial view,
looking down almost as a patchwork quilt. They did
react favorably to that.
Chair Marks: Okay. And I guess I would really
encourage that some images be brought to us of
this plow moving through the wheat field. I really
hope that we can see at a design of that.
Okay, if we go on to the Kisatchie National Forest,
some of the items there that caught my attention in
the report is the endangered red cockade. Is that
how I say it?
Ms. Stafford: Cockaded.
Chair Marks:
The cockaded woodpecker, the
Louisiana pine snake, a wild turkey. I think all of
those would make great images on a small coin.
However, I don't think that a view of a recreation
area, a vista, they call it a vista recreation area.
I'm not sure -- I am sure. That is not going to
convey well on the small coin.
Or how do you portray a bayou? A bayou, I mean it
says it is six miles of sandstone outcropping. Unless
someone can get really creative with that and bring
it in tight and not clutter it up, I'm not sure how we
get that kind of scenery successfully onto a coin
where it conveys a story.
I did note that there is fishing and hunting in the
forest.
So I'm thinking that there might be
opportunities for fish. Was this the one that had the
trout in it?
Anyway, bird watching, any of those sorts of things,
birds I think would be wonderful images.
So then if we go to the Blue Ridge Parkway, there
are some suggestions in the report about the
Parkway's distinctive stonework, stone arch bridge,
tunnel portholes. Maybe it is worth a try to show

86
some of those.
But also, doing the work, going to the Blue Ridge
website, it talks about the fact that there are -there is all sorts of wildlife involved along the Blue
Ridge Parkway.
It says there are 74 different
mammals, more than 50 salamanders, 35 reptiles
can be found on Parkway lands. So just some food
for thought there.
Also, on the website I came across an image, it is a
really small image, but it shows a car in an
interesting angle coming up the roadway with a
guardrail on the side there. Unfortunately, it is a
very modern car. It looks like a Prius, perhaps, and
I am assuming that this is an image motoring along
the Parkway. But it struck me that if you could
capture this image cropped up and I don't know if
we would get into any kind of copyright problems or
image problems but if you had a vintage car from
the first time that the Parkway was driveable, a
vintage car on a small section of the road almost
driving kind of angularly at you, that might be an
interesting image that would convey something
about a Parkway. So just an idea there.
In going on to the Bombay Hook National Wildlife
Refuge, I found it very interesting that on the
refuge's title page, is a Great Blue Heron. I had to
print this out in black and white but this is a
wonderful color picture on their website. I think this
would be a wonderful image for Bombay Hook.
Also, I was intrigued, when I really dug into the
website and discovered here they have a monthly
schedule of things wildlife that occur at the refuge.
I was interested to read about bald eagles nesting,
laying their eggs, and all that. And that reminded
me of the very first meeting I was a member of the
CCAC.
We met in Philadelphia.
We were
considering the 2008 Bald Eagle Program. Some of
you will remember it on the half-dollar. It has these
two little eagle chicks with an egg and a nest. A
wonderful success, in my view, for that coin.

87
I seem to remember I thought there were some
other images of a similar kind. I don't know if these
images could be brought forward again in this
context but bald eagle chicks in a nest for Bombay
Hook sounds like a winner to me, at least something
that I would like to be able to get a look at.
Also, in the staff report on Bombay Hook, I am
really drawn to the idea of the snow geese, the
black duck and, of course, I have already addressed
the Great Blue Heron. Some representation of bird
watching. I don't know if you show somebody with
binoculars in some interesting pose. Perhaps, as
long as we can avoid the two-headed coin dilemma.
Then going on to Saratoga National Historical Park,
I tell you what jumped out at me on the front page
of their website, there is this little banner photo and
it is really hard to see here but the object that
caught my attention was the cannon. I think the
cannon is an iconic image to battles of this time
period. I would love to see a cannon, a simple
cannon as a representation of the battle.
As I look at the suggestions here, I can't get warm
and fuzzy with any of them. Once again, we are
showing buildings and a battle reenactment. I just
don't know how you do that. That reminds me of
the Delaware -- was it the Delaware or the New
Jersey -- the New Jersey state quarter where we
have Washington crossing the Delaware. And the
people in the boat are so very small, you really can't
tell what is going on. It is too much image for too
small of a space.
And that is what I fear with some of the suggestions
here or even the Saratoga Monument being an
obelisk of a sort reminds me of Perry's Victory
quarter, which we have done that. That image is
out there already. It might look like we are doing
the same thing again. So I have my doubts about
showing that kind of a monument again.
So, those are my comments.

88
Member Bugeja: I would like to follow up on that.
Chair Marks: Go ahead, Michael.
Member Bugeja: Okay. First of all, I thought it
would be useful to give you a report from middle
America. I am going to give you a report from
middle America. Our coin shops are like barber
shops of the south. You go in there, you see your
friends, and you smile. And Iowa is in the middle of
the country. Ames, Iowa is in the middle of the
state. Main Street is in the middle of Ames. And
Chester's Coins and Gifts is in the middle of Main
Street.
So I walk in there to see my friend, Scott Nichol.
And you can all use this because it is factual. And
he and his son rush up to me with the current mint
set. And they point to the Mount Rushmore Quarter
and they say what the heck happened here? Why
are ants on the face of Mount Rushmore?
So I thought about this for a long time and I
thought well what is the medium of a state park?
The medium of a state park is the National
Geographic picture. The medium of a state park is
the post card.
But a quarter is a very small
planchette. So then I went back to take a look how
some of our best engravers and sculptors of the
past had done this. And there are two coins that -can I have that red book, Gary?
Chair Marks: Absolutely.
Member Bugeja: The one I want to point to you is
Stone
Mountain,
the
Stone
Mountain
commemorative, which continues to be one of the
most popular of -- I think that is a 1926 -Chair Marks: Twenty-five.
Member Bugeja: -- 1925. This is on a half dollar
planchette but it is, essentially a state park picture.
They have the two generals, Stonewall Jackson and
Robert E. Lee mounted on a horse and there are

89
generous fields.
Now on the back, they have a perched eagle and an
inscription which is very good. But one of the most
telling of the older designs is the only
commemorative dollar that we have and that is the
Lafayette dollar.
Can you find that for me?
Because I can describe it.
We have Lafayette and Washington jugate right,
looking to the right, a double portrait. And on the
back, we have the new monument, the Lafayette
monument facing left.
So what we actually have is the story of symbols
and how obverse relates to reverse and how you
have a choice with coins. So we have a jugate left
and then facing the right. And that tells a story.
And this, the three-sided, it doesn't have edge
lettering, but the three-sided canvas of a coin needs
to be a minimalist drawing, particularly on a
quarter, which leads me to the final artistic
comment that I want to make and then I will pass it
along.
When you are looking at Saratoga and a national
park is dedicated because of a battle, you are telling
a story. That is a narrative. Narratives tend to
clutter up a small planchette. So if you are looking
at a sword, a sword surrender or the symbolism of
the sword surrender, that is a lyric moment. That is
not a moment in time.
It is something that
happened at that moment when the sword was
given back to the defeated person. A lyric moment
works on coins. They work on coins. Narratives
tend not to work on coins.
And I am saying this in an artistic way. I have a
background in art as well but the important thing is
we can't be doing postcards on quarter planchettes.
That's it.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. Someone else?
Michael Olson?

90
Member Olson: Yes, I've been to that coin shop
that Michael refers to. It is quite a place. A lot of
good discussion happens in there.
The first thing I would say is you need to send the
artist out to these places. You are doing a quarter
on Nebraska. Nebraska happens to border Iowa so
I have been through there a couple of times. It is a
lot different scenery than most folks out here on the
east coast are used to looking at. You can see the
horizon in every direction.
So if you want to get the feeling, and that is what
artists do, is they assimilate the feeling and they
resubmit it out on their canvas. They need to go to
these places and pick up the feeling of the location.
I really like Gary's idea, which was given to us here
about the plow. When I was read in this before the
meeting, I envisioned a plow coming at you. You
see nothing but the blade of the plow coming
directly towards you with the earth thrusting out to
the side. That shows action. It shows movement
and it really captures what we are trying to say
here.
On the Kisatchie, Louisiana, there is a lot of items in
the write-up here that talk about activities,
mountain biking, canoeing, wildlife viewing,
hunting, fishing, hiking, and swimming. A lot of
things there that aren't necessarily a picture of
what the place looks like. So I would encourage
you to take a look at putting some action in there,
some activity.
On the Blue Ridge Parkway, I have got a lot of
friends that own Corvettes and Harleys. A lot of
them have been there with their cars and
motorcycles to drive that. I have never had the
privilege. I would like to do that someday. But
they all come back telling me what a beautiful place
that is and what a great road it is to drive.
And when you are talking about a parkway, you are
literally talking about the road and what you can

91
see from the road. So I agree with Gary that some
depiction of a vehicle.
It doesn't matter really
which era, old/new. Just something there showing
the road being enjoyed by the tourist is something
that I think would work well. Not necessarily a
picture of what the tourist sees when they stop their
car and they are looking at something.
Bombay Hook, again, I have never been to this one
either but from the write-up and from what Gary
has stated, it is all about the birds. So let's see
some birds. And there are several good choices to
see here, to take a look at. Maybe a bird that is not
posing for the picture, a bird that is surprised by the
cameraman or maybe is not paying attention to the
cameraman. I know we have seen depictions of
animals on some of these where it looks like they
are being told to say cheese. And that is not really
what I don't think works well.
Finally on the Saratoga, I agree with Michael. We
don't need a picture of what it looks like. We need
symbols of what it looks like. We need to capture
the feeling.
And I think the sword is all about what happened
there, the battle. And I think different themes
based on what happened with the battle would work
well, especially the sword.
Member Scarinci: Can I just jump in just to say one
quick thing about Saratoga? It is the only one I
want to comment on.
Just be aware in the narrative there were two of the
first 12 medals of the Continental Congress issued
involving Saratoga.
One was for William
Washington and one was for Gates. And they have
and those things were brought to Paris by Ben
Franklin and ultimately minted in the Paris mint a
long time later.
But the scenes depicted may have vignettes that
you can -- may have little pieces of it that you could
take out. I think we are all saying the same thing.

92
You know, keep it simple. Keep it symbolic. No
broad sweeping landscapes and scenes with a lot of
people who end up, as we used to say,
affectionately, they look like bugs at the end of the
day or specs on a quarter.
So just be aware in the narrative for Saratoga,
there are those two medals that exist and are very
important medals. And the aftermarket on those
and the collectability on those is significant.
The second thing I wanted to say, in terms of the
methodology of surrender, and I wish our historian
were here, but that was the custom. So there is
nothing particularly special about here is you sword,
keep your sword. That was just the gentlemanly
thing to do and that existed through the Civil War,
actually. So there is nothing like dramatic about
that moment, in particular. I mean, well it was
dramatic. What was important about that was the
victory.
I have nothing else to say about anything else.
Chair Marks: Okay. Donald, were you done?
Member Stevens-Sollman: I just have to agree with
what everyone else is saying is to keep it simple.
I was intrigued with the Kisatchie
bugs and
dogwoods and azaleas. And I'm not sure if a snake
is going to be very favorably accepted to most folks.
But flowers might be kind of fun.
And also I
thought that the longleaf pine could be a terribly
beautiful emblem on a coin. Just those great long
needles, to keep it simple.
And I think I am a little bit -- I think I would like to
see an historic building or arches or something on
some of these pieces. I don't think we should
neglect the buildings altogether. I think they are
very collectable and very beautiful when they are
done. So I would encourage those kinds of devices
but also singularly simple, not postcards.

93
Chair Marks: Heidi?
Member Wastweet: I have said this before but I
want to say it again. We are talking about coin
design. So let's keep in mind the word design.
Like we have said before, we don't want to see
postcard images. Likewise, although we do favor
the flora and fauna, we don't want flora and fauna
in a postcard way. We don't want to copy what a
nature photographer might do. Let's take that flora
and fauna and arrange it into a design.
And on the specifically Bombay Hook National
Wildlife Refuge, please don't waste the artist's time
doing anything other than wildlife.
There was mention of the aerial view of the
patchwork farmsteads and fields. That may look
great in a photograph, you couldn't even pull that
off in a drawing. On a small pallet of a coin, I'm
having a really hard time picturing how that is going
to work. I don't think that is going to work.
I do like the idea of the stone arches, winding
roads, as long as it is not trying to capture too
much of a vista. And when it comes to flora and
fauna, the more specific we can get to a park, the
better. Like Kisatchie talks about the endangered
red -Chair Marks: Cockaded.
Member Wastweet: -- cockaded -- thank you -being very specific to that park. So that would be, I
think, a very good choice.
Saratoga, I think, is going to be very challenging.
So I just want to wish the artists good luck with that
one. It is going to very challenging.
Chair Marks: Anyone else? Go ahead, Erik.
Member Jansen: I don't know what the final work
product of this is. I would hope it would be a
document that goes to the artist to attract them to

94
stepping up, if they are in the AIP to an opportunity.
I am not going to nitpick these.
I think it is
fantastic we are doing these. And I think it is
wonderful and appreciated that we are doing these
at this point with this committee. I think it gives us
an ability to have context when we pick artwork to
understand that we are not picking the quality of
the art. We are picking the quality of the design.
And it helps us to understand the context of the
design.
So headed in the work product direction, I would
think that maybe the most powerful contribution we
could make here today is not prescribe the images
we are looking for but rather to inspire them and
not to define what we will accept or won't but to
direct people toward symbolic imagery and not
photographic imagery.
And to that end, I would argue it might of highest
value in each one of these work products here, I see
five here and there will five more the next year.
And
theoretically,
similar
documents
for
commemorative and other irregular programs, that
there is merely a preamble or a postscript, whatever
you like to call it, that says the committee is really
looking for symbology, not photographs.
The
committee
is
looking
for
iconic
but
not
photographically iconic. I think the most powerful
contribution is just a reminder and a direction as
opposed to a prescription. These are wonderful
ideas floating around and I had a number of them
myself. But I think we destroy the artistic value if
we give them too much handicapping and they start
gaming the system instead of giving us their heart.
So that would be my contribution here.
The second point is totally off-target but I think on
the mark, and that would be let me inspire you to
look at a product that we sell today as the Mint,
which is the collection of the five ATB quarters, the
P and D. The S is a specialty product. But we sell
them out there and they are really high quality

95
strikings and they are beautiful. How wonderful
would that be in an educating environment if it
came with a little brochure which had a page, or a
front and a back or, a photograph and then some
text on what we went through to understand the
context of the product?
It might actually give
someone who brought that product for their child an
ability to say well here is what the plow is. Here is
why it meant that. Here is what it did to America
and here is what homesteading was like and this is
what it did to America. And it might really drive
home the original mission, I think of the ATB series,
which is to gather and distribute appreciation for
what belongs to all of us in this country. So that is
yet another product, another job for the Mint to
consider and take on. But I think one that is
squarely in the mission of the program, even though
it might not be in the dye and the planchette itself.
Thank you.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Erik. Anyone else?
Okay, great. I think then everyone has commented
who wants to. So staff, did you have anything else
to contribute to that discussion? Any questions or
feedback?
Ms. Stafford: No. Thank you.
Chair Marks: Okay, thank you. We look forward to
seeing what will come our way in actual designs.
Again, on behalf of the committee, I want to thank
the staff for providing this opportunity to comment
at the front end. It is very much appreciated.
Okay, the next item is our discussion on the annual
report. The hour is getting late and so what I want
to suggest here folks is that rather than get into a
detailed discussion now, that you would allow me to
come back to you with a draft of the Fiscal '13
Annual Report. And in that draft I will bring any
and all suggestions that are funneled my way in the
way of commemorative programs and such. And I
will line them up in this draft report in such a way

96
that as a committee when we meet next we can
very quickly look at groupings of ideas in any given
year and we can make any decisions that need to
be made as far as which one or two we want to
actually recommend. And I will use the fiscal '12 as
a template. So most of what you see in fiscal '12
you would see in this draft that I would bring back
to you. It wouldn't limit the committee in any way
to any of the stuff that is in that report but would
provide us a starting point from which to put
together our next annual report.
Does that sound like a workable approach?
Member Stevens-Sollman: Yes, I think that works.
Gray, listening to you propose for next time, are we
looking at like an all day, a day and a half? Just so
that we know how to do our travel for the 22nd of
July.
Chair Marks: Well I believe that additional work is
needed to put this agenda together and schedule.
And until we do that, which will probably be in very
short order, we are not going to know if this is a full
day or a day and a half meeting.
Member Stevens-Sollman: Okay.
Ms. Stafford: I think what we discussed in the
admin meeting was that I would provide to Bill an
outline of the agenda with proposed times. And
then we would send to the chairman and then there
could be internal discussion amongst committee
members about whether they prefer to try to do it
in a day or if they really do believe it is a day and a
half or what have you. And then we can do that
within a matter of days, so we can know about your
travel plans.
Member Stevens-Sollman:
I guess what I am
concerned about because of where I am at, a day's
work is not so bad. But for me to finish like at 4:00
or 4:30, I can't get home until the next morning.
So that is what I need to know. If we are going to

97
go until 5:00, that's good but I just have to know
that.
Mr. Weinman:
Well I think this is something,
because we are so close to the July meeting, I think
we will probably make decisions on this within the
next week.
Member Stevens-Sollman: Okay.
Mr. Weinman: Maybe even by the end of this week.
Member Stevens-Sollman: Okay, thank you. Thank
you very much.
Adjourn
Chair Marks: Okay, well we have reached the end
of our agenda. And I want to thank everyone for all
of you great contributions and the staff's
contributions to the meeting. I think that we can
call this one a big win and I appreciate everybody
being here.
So we are now adjourned. Thank you.
(Whereupon, at 2:42 p.m., the foregoing meeting
was adjourned.)