Full text of Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meetings, Recommendations, and Minutes : Meeting, June 21, 2017 : Transcript

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CCAC PUBLIC MEETING AGENDA

Wednesday, June 21, 2017
9:30 a.m. – 4:45 p.m.

United States Mint
2nd Floor Conference Room
801 9th Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20220

A P P E A R A N C E S

CCAC COMMITTEE MEMBERS:

MARY LANNIN, Madam Chair
ROBERT HOGE
HEIDI WASTWEET
HERMAN VIOLA
DENNIS TUCKER
JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN
KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR
ERIK JANSEN
TOM URAM

C O N T E N T S

SPECIAL GUEST

PAGE

JOVITA CARRANZA

6

KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR

7

ANTONIO TAGUBA

135

CHARLES PINCK

189

PAT O'DONNELL

193

P R O C E E D I N G S
MS. LANNIN:

Good morning.

And welcome to all

special guests we have, especially Jovita
Carranza, the brand new treasurer of the United
States.

Welcome.

Thank you for attending.

(Applause)
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

I'd like to call this

meeting to order of the Citizens Coinage Advisory
Committee for Wednesday, June 21st, 2017.
Dave Motl is here.

And Mr.

And the first order of

business today will be the formal swearing in of
our newest member, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

And Dave

is the acting deputy director of the United States
Mint.
MR. MOTL:

We're going -- there you are.

(Applause)
(Pause)
MR. MOTL:

And how are you (indiscernible)?

(indiscernible) let you know and officially get
you in to CCAC.
(Swearing in as follows:)
So do you -- and then state your name.

MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:
MR. MOTL:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

-- solemnly swear that you will

support and defend the Constitution of the United
States against all enemies, foreign and domestic,
that you will bear true faith and allegiance to
the same, that you will -- that you take this
obligation freely without any mental reservation
or purpose of evasion and that you will well and
faithfully discharge the duties of your office to
which you are about to enter.
MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:
MR. MOTL:

Yes, I will.

Excellent.

MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:

Thank you.

(Applause)
MR. MOTL:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. MOTL:

Mary, (indiscernible) one second?
Absolutely, Dave.
I do want to -- I want to take a

minute to introduce my boss, the treasurer.
the 44th treasurer of the United States.
witness her swearing in on Monday.

She's

I got to

I got to see

her sign her signature to the 10 times and the
blanks (indiscernible) note.

So it's very

exciting, very historic.

Ms. Carranza rose to the

ranks at UPS to become senior vice president.

She

was also the number 2 in charge at SBA in the 2008
era and so have a lot of experience and a great
addition in Treasury.

And we're very happy to

have a representative in Treasury right now.

So

it's very important.
Treasurer, did you want to stand up and just
say anything?
MS. CARRANZA:

Just a couple of words.

And

that is, I'm looking forward to working with every
one of you and really augmenting and elevating the
treasurer's role to really be more visible in the
community on financial literacy, economic
development in various communities, the
underserved markets.

And I'm sure I'm going to

tap on every resource here.
So I appreciate your welcome and I look
forward to serving with all of you at the highest
level.
Thank you.
(Applause)

MS. LANNIN:

I would like to ask Kareem if he

would like to say a couple of words about how he
got started in coins.

We all have our own special

stories and how we got sucked into this wonderful
hobby.

And so, I'll let him talk about that.

MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:
quick trip.

For me, it was a pretty

I started out when I was a kid

collecting stamps.

I really enjoyed it.

But by

the time that I was -- before I was graceful, I
lost interest.
Moving forward, after going through college
and everything and finally having the opportunity
to make some money, I started to inquire about
ways to invest.

And for two minutes there in the

early '70s, I was kind of a gold bug.

I bought a

little bit of gold and had a brief run up to about
$900 an ounce.

I played around with that and lost

interest and got out while I could, fortunately.
Move forward.

Again, 2003, 2004, I had the

opportunity to read Ron Chernow's very excellent
biography on Alexander Hamilton.

And in reading

that, I said, geez, he put the Federal Reserve

together and everything.

So the money that we

used at that time probably at this point are very
valuable artifacts.

And I started to buy gold

coins from the Revolutionary War era forward and
really focusing on Type I Double Eagles.

But I

was able to ride the price of gold up to about
$1200 an ounce and learned a lot.

And it was a

great education for me about how money works and
everything.

And I think that's why I'm here now

because of that very quick and brief education
that I got most recently.
So that's my -- it's not a tale of woe yet but
that's my story about how I got into it.

And I'm

very glad I'm involved and it's a real privilege
for me to be involved in this and to have input
(indiscernible) a great opportunity.

People from

a national desk (indiscernible) are calling me
now.

It's a lot going on.

But it's been a nice

experience and I'm looking forward to doing this.
Thank you.
MS. LANNIN:
Okay.

You're welcome.

Before we begin, I need to take a

little roll call here.

So I'd like -- I want to

introduce the members of the committee.

And

please respond "Present" when I call your name.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.
MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. HOGE:

Present.

Robert Hoge.
Present.

MS. LANNIN:

Erik Jansen.

MR. JANSEN:

Present.

MS. LANNIN:

Jeanne Stevens-Sollman.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Present.

MS. LANNIN:

Dennis Tucker.

MR. TUCKER:

Present.

MS. LANNIN:

Thomas Uram.

MR. URAM:

Present.

MS. LANNIN:
MR. VIOLA:

Herman Viola.
Present.

MS. LANNIN:
MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:

Heidi Wastweet.
Present.
And I'm the chair, Mary Lannin.

Donald Scarinci was not able to be with us today
nor is our other member, Mike Moran, able to be

with us.
All right.
following items:

Today, the CCAC will consider the
a discussion of the letter to

the secretary and the minutes from our March 21st
meeting; a review of the candidate designs for the
2019 and 2020 Native American $1 coin programs;
the selection of jurors for the Apollo 11 50th
Anniversary Commemorative Coin program; a review
of the Candidate Reverse Designs for the Apollo 11
50th Anniversary Commemorative Coin Program; a
review of candidate designs for the Filipino
Veterans of World War II Congressional Gold Medal;
a review of candidate designs for the Office of
Strategic Services Congressional Gold Medal.

And

finally, there will be a discussion of potential
2018 American Liberty 24-karat gold fractional
coin.
So before we begin any deliberation of the
proceedings, do we have members of the press
present on the phone?

Could you identify

yourselves, please?
MS. JUDKINS:

Maggie Judkins, Numismatic News.

MS. LANNIN:
MR. GONSO:

Thank you.
Mike Gonso (ph) with Coin News.

MS. LANNIN:
MR. WALDO:

Good morning, Mike.

Anyone else?

(indiscernible) Waldo (ph) with

Coin Week.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. PEARLMAN:

Robert Pearlman with

collectSPACE.com.
MS. LANNIN:
All right.

Thank you.

Good morning.

Thank you very much.

So for the record, I'd also like to
acknowledge the following Mint staff that's in
today's meeting:

Betty Birdson, acting liaison to

the CCAC; Greg Weinman, counsel to the CCAC; Don
Everhart, lead sculptor engraver from the
Philadelphia Mint: Ron Harrigal, manager, design
and engraving division, Philadelphia; April
Stafford, chief, office of design management.

And

the following program managers from her office:
Megan Sullivan, Vanessa Franck and Roger Vasquez.
And Pam Boer who is also here.
I would like to begin with the Mint.

Do we

have any issues that need to be addressed right
now?
MS. BURDSONG:
MS. LANNIN:

No, we don't.
We don't, okay.

So the first

item on the agenda is the approval of the letter
to the secretary and the minutes from the March
21st public meeting.

And this document was e-

mailed to all of us for review.
Are there any comments?
Okay.

Is there a motion to approve the

minutes?
MR. HOGE:
MS. LANNIN:

So moved.
Is there a second?

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Second.

MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Jeanne?

Second.

Thank

you, Jeanne.
All those in favor, please say Aye.
ALL:

Aye.

MS. LANNIN:

Are those opposed?

Okay.

The ayes have it.

Okay.

So we are now going to turn to our

review of the candidate designs for the 2019

Native American $1 Coin program.

And April

Stafford will talk to us about that.
MS. STAFFORD:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Native American $1 Coin Act requires the
secretary of the Treasury to mint and issue $1
coins in honor of Native Americans and the
important contributions made by Indian tribes and
individual Native Americans to the development and
history of the United States.

The Act mandates a

reverse design for these coins with an image
emblematic of an important Native American or
Native American contribution each year.

There's

no longer a requirement as there was through 2016
to release these coins in any kind of
chronological order by the year of their
contributions, however.
The candidate designs you will see today were
developed around the following themes:

2019, the

American Indians in the space program; and for
2020, Elizabeth Peratrovich and Alaska's antidiscrimination laws.
Per our established process, these themes were

initially developed by the National Museum of the
American Indian and then vetted by our legislative
consultants including the Senate Committee on
Indian Affairs, the Congressional Native American
Caucus of the House of Representatives and the
National Congress of the American Indian.
Designs were reviewed first by experts at the
National Museum of the American Indian.

And, in

fact, we have invited Jim Adams, the senior
historian of the National Museum of the American
Indian to be with us today by phone.

I'm not sure

if he's able to attend.
Mr. Adams, are you with us?
Okay.

But we do have his feedback.

And all

of his comments about technical and historical
accuracy were provided back to the artist.
comments on appropriateness as well.

Any

Revisions

were made before finalizing the portfolio and
sending it then to our legislative consultant.
The Mint further consulted with the Cherokee
and Clinket (sic) nations as well as the families
of Mary Golda Ross and Elizabeth Peratrovich for

their input on the designs.
All designs you'll see today are, of course,
reverses that will accompany the existing
Sacagawea obverse which includes the inscriptions
"Liberty" and "In God we Trust".

Edge-incused

inscriptions for this program include " E Pluribus
Unum" as well as the year of issuance.

Required

reverse inscriptions include "United States of
America" and dollar sign 1.
So I'd like to note that 2019, interestingly
enough, coincides with the 50th anniversary of the
first man landing on the lunar surface for which
the 2019 commemorative coins are being developed.
So these coins that you'll review will also pair
with those in that year.
We'll go to the recommendations of our
liaisons.

The CFA, the Senate Committee on Indian

Affairs, the tribe and family of Mary Golda Ross
all identified design 10 as their primary
preference while the Congressional Native American
Caucus of the House of Representatives identified
it as a secondary preference.

Okay.

So we begin going through the designs.

Obverse 1 features several elements symbolizing
contributions of Native Americans to the space
program including a space shuttle launch
representative of aeronautics and technology; and
astronaut representative of space exploration; and
a handwriting of an equation representative of
research and engineering.

The intersecting lines

in the circle represent the four directions,
north, south, east and west.

Additional

inscriptions include American Indians in the space
program.

Again, this was the first preferred

design by the Congressional Native American Caucus
of the House of Representatives.
Moving on, Obverse 2 features a design
symbolic of Native American astronaut John
Herrington while the International Space Station
is seen orbiting the earth.

The Pheiades (sic)

star cluster, the subject of Cherokee lore,
appears in the background.

Additional

inscriptions include "American Indians in the
Space Program".

Obverse 3 features a design symbolic of Native
American astronaut John Herrington performing a
space walk outside the International Space Station
while in orbit over the curved horizon of earth.
Two eagle feathers, a means of transporting
prayers to the Creator, additionally represent the
power of flight and the importance of cooperation
between cultures and people.
inscriptions include:

Additional

"Native Americans in the

Space Program".
Obverse 4 -- excuse me.
reverses.

These are all

I apologize.

Reverse 4 features a design symbolic of Native
American astronaut John Herrington holding an
eagle feather.

The feather represents the sky and

the dream of flight.
Design 5 features an astronaut holding the
American flag over a celestial body.

The seven-

pointed Cherokee star represents Mary Golda Ross,
the first female Native American engineer in the
space program.

Additional inscriptions including

"Honoring American Indians in the Space Program".

Design 6 features three golden eagle tail
feathers honoring the achievements of John
Herrington of the Chickasaw, Mary Golda Ross from
Cherokee and Jerry Elliott, Osage and Comanche.
Seven stars of the Pleiades are supplaced in the
design as a symbol of exploring the vast unknown
of space.

Additional inscriptions include "The

Quest to Understand".
Design 7 features an eagle and seven stars of
the Pleiades.

The inscription, "Observe,

Challenge and Explore Space" represents the
important contribution to space exploration for
Native Americans.

Additional inscriptions include

"The Eagle Flies Highest".
Design 8 features three golden eagle tail
feathers honoring the achievements of John
Herrington, Mary Golda Ross and Jerry Elliott.
Finance of our solar system float between the
feathers.

Venus (indiscernible) to moon, Mercury,

Mars and Jupiter.

Additional inscriptions include

"Charting a Path to Space".
Design 9 features a space shuttle launch

superimposed over the silhouette of a flying eagle
as it crosses the sky and seven stars of the
Pleiades.

Additional inscriptions include "A

Journey to the Stars".
Design 10 features Mary Golda Ross writing
calculations.

Behind her, an Atlas-Agena rocket

launches into space with an orbit related equation
inscribed in its cloud.

An astronaut, symbolic of

Native American astronaut John Herrington, space
walks above.

In the field, a group of stars

indicates outer space.
Again, I'd like to remind the committee that
this was the first preferred design by the Senate
Committee on Indian Affairs, by our liaison to the
Cherokee nation and the family of Mary Golda Ross.
It was also the recommendation by the CFA though
they did make some suggested modification
including simplifying the design where possible.
So there was some discussion about moving the
tower, minimizing the clouds in back and removing
some of the star cluster.
Designs 12 and 12A features elements including

13 stars positioned to form a helix, a
configuration that conveys a sense of motion while
invoking the idea of an orbital path.

The Apollo

13 space capsule is a reference to Jerry Elliott
who (indiscernible) the safe return of that
mission.

The eagle feather represents the feather

brought into space by John Herrington.

Design 12

carries the additional inscription "Native
Americans of the Space Program".

So this is

design 12 and 12A.
Design 13 features the Apollo 11 space vehicle
as it launches.

The Cherokee star acknowledges

Mary Golda Ross' work on the Agena series of
rockets that played so prominent role in the
Apollo Moon program.

A circuit board further

represents the work of Native American engineers
in the space program.

Additional inscriptions

include "Honoring American Indians in the Space
Program".
Design 14 depicts an astronaut in an
extravehicular pose floating above the earth in
the background.

The feather similar to the one

that Astronaut John Herrington took with him on
the mission to the International Space Station in
2002.

Additional inscriptions include "Native

American Aerospace Engineers".
Design 15 depicts a Gemini module docking with
the Agena target vehicle that was developed by
Mary Golda Ross and her team at Lockheed.
Additional inscriptions include "Gemini Plus Agena
Target Vehicle".
Design 16 depicts the hand of Mary Golda Ross
reaching for the stars, as it were, to symbolize
her efforts and contributions towards America
space program achievements.

Additional

inscriptions include "Native American Ingenuity".
Design 17 features the Apollo lunar module
symbolizing man's visit to the moon accompanied by
two feathers representing flight and Native
Americans' involvement in the space program and
the ultimate success of the Mercury, Gemini and
Apollo missions.
Design 18 depicts the Gemini A and Gemini 7
rendezvous.

Mary Golda Ross worked on the science

and math behind orbiting systems and satellites,
the rendezvous and docking of vehicles in space
and the rockets that put the Gemini system into
space.
Madam Chair, that concludes the candidate
designs for the reverses of 2019 Native American
dollar coins.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

We certainly have a

wealth of designs to choose from.
All right.
consideration.

I'd like to begin our
But before I do, I know that April

had mentioned that the CFA had asked for Design
number 10 to be modified somewhat.
Donald, would you like to address your
discussion with them about that?
MR. EVERHART:

Yes.

What was suggested was to

remove the tower on the left where the rocket is
by simplifying the clouds.
showing a silhouette.

Also, maybe just

And I would think also the

removal of several stars.

And one thing that the

CFA suggested which I agree with is
(indiscernible) the arrow which I think is

redundant.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Does anybody know what the

equation stands for?
MR. JANSEN:

Good luck.

MS. LANNIN:

I'll see you when you go back.

MR. JANSEN:

That's probably a -- it's a

pretty twisted version of the real equation.

So,

I mean, if there's anybody out there that's ever
going to see that, they assume the size of
(indiscernible) being so small.

It probably ought

to be revisited to at least make it accurate
'cause it's not even close.

I mean, there's

(indiscernible) symbols in there.
MS. LANNIN:

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

So any other

technical questions?
All right.

Well, I'd like to begin by asking

everybody -- we've got a long day ahead of us.

So

if we could kind of keep our comments to about
five minutes a person, that would be great.

And,

Herman, may I start with you?
MR. VIOLA:

Well, thank you.

all quite exciting --

Well, this is

MS. LANNIN:
MR. VIOLA:

Turn your mic for me.

Thank you.

This is all very exciting

especially to the Indian community.

And I think

maybe you're not aware Herrington's eagle feather
is at the Museum of the American Indians on the
second floor if you want to take a look at it.
And the feather is extremely important, the eagle
feather to the Indian community.

And so I think

all of these designs are quite good but I would
love to see a feather in which ever one design we
accept.

Somehow put it in.

Maybe number 10.

You

know, when you're doing some finagling with that
design, if there could be a feather there because
that would really be an important symbol to the
Indian community.
And so I really don't have much more to add to
that.

It's quite exciting and I think it's going

to get a great deal of attention but it would be
wonderful to have an eagle feather somehow
represented.
Thank you.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Thank you, Herman.

Heidi,

what do you think?
MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:

Yes.

MS. WASTWEET:
question.

Me?
I'm sorry.

First, I want to ask Herman a

On design 8, what do you think about

the fact that there are three feathers?

There was

just the one feather that we need to
(indiscernible) there, correct?
MR. VIOLA:
interesting.

Well, I thought that was

There are three different tribes

that are represented in the Indian space program.
And I suspect whoever was the designer had that in
mind to give credit to the three tribes.

But I am

very happy with just the one feather which is so
symbolic.
MS. WASTWEET:

April, is that correct?

MS. STAFFORD:

Yes.

In fact, the design

description notes that these three feathers
represent the achievements of John Herrington,
Mary Golda Ross and Jerry Elliott who were from
different tribes.
MS. WASTWEET:

(indiscernible).

There's a lot

to digest here.
many designs.

And thank you for giving us so
And I'd like to reiterate, as I

said many times before, we're not here to judge
drawings but to judge coin designs.

And part of

that is appropriate designs for the palette being
a very small and very shallow coin in this
particular case.

There's a lot of momentum and

preference for design number 10.
lot of merit.
medal.
quarter.

I think it has a

And this would be a fantastic

But I'm not sure about (indiscernible)
It's just got a lot going on.

And I

agree with the notes of taking away the tower and
simplifying the clouds.
astronaut is upside down.

I love the fact that the
I don't think taking

away the stars is going to add any value.
the stars are not making it more busy.

I think

I think

the stars are nice.

It's the other elements that

are making it busy.

I agree with taking away the

arrow.
When you see this coin in hand, you're really
not going to be able to identify a lot of what's
going on here.

And I would love to see a more

simplified design.
Design number 1, which also is a preference, I
don't think has enough symbology of the Native
American.
I was drawn to design number 8 although the
stars are really overwhelming the planets, I do
think it's more simplified and interesting design.
I was also drawn to design number 9.
this would read really well.

I think

And if you can

imagine the texture of the eagle, I think that
would be really exciting on the order.
And a word on symbology.

Design number 4, the

fact that he's holding the feather, I think brings
it away from being a symbol and brings it into
reality that literally it's a feather and
(indiscernible) giving the message which is
(indiscernible) intended.

And I'm going to

(indiscernible) short right there.

And I'm

anxious to hear what everyone else has to say.
MS. LANNIN:

Thanks, Heidi.

like to speak next?
MR. JANSEN:

Thank you.

Erik, would you

First of all, thank you to the new
secretary -- or the treasurer to be with us today.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
MR. JANSEN:
first.

I'll take both.

I encourage you to handle one

Thanks for being here.

This committee --

I'm surrounding by so much talent and expertise.
I represent the general public so I'm kind of -I'm kind of the shlub in this committee.

But the

people around me are so incredibly talented.

And

our mission of assuring the quality of the
artistic content and the clarity of its messages
remains our focus.

So thank you, thank you, thank

you for being here.
My comments really are largely in support.
Herman's assertion that the symbol of the feather
-- hitting that is essential here.

And

unfortunately, that puts me a little sidewise with
some of the designs I might otherwise favor.
I'll talk about those in a moment.

And

And Heidi's

message of simplicity, I think we're dealing with
a very small palette here and shallow relief at
that.

And so, I'm concerned that potentially,

we're generating a mixed message here against what
the CFA may have recommended because I personally
think 10 even simplified will become a bit of a
mess by committing.
part of that.

And I really don't want to be

So I am then explicitly saying that

is not among my recommendations.

And I would

encourage you to have the courage to stand up for
what you believe are the best designs and not fall
in line unnecessarily.
I was attracted to design number 1 with the
exception that I think the symbology of the
feathers is really subordinate here.
balance design.

It's a nice

In that sense, I think it's a

safe fallback here.

I don't think it's the nicest

or the sweetest designs.
Design number 8 caught my attention because it
does carry the important theme here of a Native
American theme core contribution, strength, pillar
to the space program.

So to that extent, rather

than publish a picture on metal as we are
sometimes faced to challenge, I think we have very
simple symbols here which may pass the intended

message most clearly in a small world.

That is to

say, challenge the observer who takes a moment to
try to understand this coin.

Give them the sense

of context to Native American symbolized by the
feather with the contextual mission of space.

I

think it's a startling contrast which adds to the
reader's attention gathering of the message here.
Design number 9, in my view, is absolutely
spectacular design.

Unfortunately, it's a little

diluting of the message here.

And I might say --

and occasionally we say let's put one of these in
the bank and save it.

I'm not quite sure what

that rainy day looks like but this is a
spectacular design although it misses the
symbology of the feather.

And I'm not going to

try to mark it up to modify it that way.
Designs 12 and 12A might seem attractive but,
to me, the feather feels unnatural and it seems
more like some symbols thrown onto a palette
without a lot of integrative thought.
Design 14 is a safe recommendation.

It's not

spectacular in my mind and in that sense it fails

to meet the best artwork.

But it's a default

design which could work.
I want to highlight on design number 17 a
subtlety that jumped out and grabbed me.

And I

was up the wee hours of the morning when the man
landed.

And I recall the discussion.

They didn't

know how those pads would settle into the moon
surface.

There was all kinds of fear and

uncertainty.

And when I look at that design, for

some reason, that moment is brought back to me as
those pads, hard and large as they are, encounter
the soft suppleness of the feather.

I'm not

recommending this design but kudos to the artist
who also felt that as they drew this.
Thank you.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Erik.

Kareem, your thoughts.
MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:

It's -- excuse me.

I was drawn really to the symbolism of the
feather and how effective it was.

And for me,

number 8 really -- it really conveyed that, just
the eagle feathers and its connection to the

cosmos there with the planetary.

So that's the

one that had (indiscernible) an appeal to me.

But

I'm very new at this and I will say that -MS. LANNIN:

Thank you so much.

Jeanne, would you like to be next, please?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have to agree with my colleagues.

I think

we do need to have a feather in this coin.
10, for me, was too much information.

Number

And I think

we're doing a medal and we have more space.

I

think we were (indiscernible) of (indiscernible)
here even if we cleaned up the background.
moving away from that.

So I'm

And I also think that

number 1 has, again -- it talks about space but it
doesn't talk about Native Americans.

So I'm going

to probably concentrate more on number 8 and
number 9.
When I first saw number 9, it was really very
exciting.

I thought we could use our technique of

(indiscernible) more positively and not lose some
of the sculpting that sometimes we do when we have
a design.

So I go for that.

I just sort of miss

the fact that we don't have a feather in there.
We have the eagle.

The eagle is flying the

highest and I think that that's important to
remember when we choose these designs.
I think this portfolio is so very well thought
out by the artists and I appreciate that very
much.

I think we look at number 2.

And again, if

we have number 2 in a bigger (indiscernible), that
probably would be my choice because it gives us
negative space.
the astronaut.

It gives us a new direction of
And we have the star cluster

Pleiades.
So I'm very -- I'm still trying to decide
which is my preference.

I thank Herman for his

astute description of the eagle feather.

I think

we really need to pay attention to that.
Thank you.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Jeanne.

Robert?
MR. HOGE:

Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.

I would also like to comment that it's a
compliment for us to have our treasurer with us

today.

Great (indiscernible) indeed.

I have to agree with the observations that
have been made by my colleagues here.

My favorite

designs are number 8, number 12 and 14.

These all

have a degree of simplicity and balance and good
use of space and include and incorporate the
feather.

I'm not very pleased with number 10.

This is a design which is just not suitable for a
coin.

It's much too fine in detail if you think

of the size.

Everything's going to be lost in the

little launching tower and the portrait of Ross.
I like the astronaut gripping the United States of
America's baseline up there.

I think the image of

the Pleaides is not very good because it's not
what can be seen from earth.

And it be a space

view but that's not explicable.
much too complicated.

I think is just

I agree with Heidi.

It

would be a nice medal but I think (indiscernible)
references expressed.
Number 9, I have reservations about.

I agree

with the rest of my colleagues because I think
that having a great deal in the way of shadows and

clouds, it's almost as if somebody is just not
suitable for a coin design in spite of what we
might be able to do with frosting and polishing
and things like this.

I think number 9 -- it

doesn't have a feather either.
bit too complicated.

It's just a little

And I think it could be a

(indiscernible) of the coin.
Overall, this is a very attractive portfolio
and I'd like to compliment the artists for the
inspiration of these designs really as a whole.

I

don't think we can go wrong here.
Thank you.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Robert.

Tom?
MR. URAM:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

And Deputy

Secretary, congratulations, and official
congratulations also from the Pennsylvania
Association of Numismatists.

I have to always get

that (indiscernible).
MS. LANNIN:
MR. URAM:

Yeah.

You do.

I have to promote the group.

I agree with many of the colleagues here this

Also,

morning.

However -- and I agree with number 10.

It's a super medal in the (indiscernible) that
we're working on here.
But as far as number 9 goes, and that's the
one that I -- is my favorite.

However, maybe Don

could comment on this in relation to all of the
cloud cover underneath.

If we just had the rocket

boosters and then the flag where all of the cloud
-- the flag -- the feather where all of the burst
is there, might add to and be able to really
create the extra dimension that's needed and
missing.

As Herman said, no matter which one we

go with, I think that it would be appropriate to
have a feather that is part of it.
So I lean towards this one (indiscernible).
How tough would that be to -MR. EVERHART:

I think it would be pretty

tough actually -MR. URAM:

Well --

MR. EVERHART:

-- 'cause, you know, you got a

design that's been worked out already and then
you're throwing a different element into it.

You

know, without redesigning it, it might just look
like it was just thrown in at the last minute.
I'd have to see some examples before I could
really comment on that intelligently.
MR. URAM:

It's my favorite design for the

(indiscernible) that we're working with.

But if

not then I think I would lean more towards number
8 in relation to capturing the symbolic
participation of the mission.
I agree also with colleagues with regards to
number 1.

It's just a little bit too postcard

looking for me.

I just think that it's just going

in that direction.

So if we can't do anything

with number 9 then I guess I'm leaning towards
number 8 as far as representing what we need to be
doing here.
Thank you, Madam Chairman.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Tom.

I guess I'd like to add a couple of comments
here.

My favorite design was number 8 for all of

the reasons that we may have (indiscernible).
think that the three feathers representing the

I

three tribes is very important.
I also like number 9 and wonder if we couldn't
sort of (indiscernible) ourselves to the fact that
the eagle represents a feather.

But "A Journey to

the Stars", that could be any (indiscernible).

If

this were chosen, is it possible to
(indiscernible) that phrase with Native Americans
in space to be more appropriate for this program?
But I agree with everyone.
have a feather somehow.

I think we have to

And so, I'm leaning

toward number 8.
Thank you very much.
Dennis?

Any other comments?

Dennis, did I not call on you?

MR. TUCKER:

You did not.

MS. LANNIN:

Sorry.

MR. URAM:

I was watching (indiscernible) like

any -MR. TUCKER: Can you hear me?

Is this

microphone on?
MS. LANNIN:

Yeah.

MR. TUCKER:

All right.

echo what you just said.

Go ahead.
For me, Mary, I would

The importance of the

legend "American Indians in the Space Program" or
something similar.

The space program itself is so

dramatic, so big and so interesting that that
might be what people focus if they're not given
some guidance with a legend or text.
I also think it's important to avoid depicting
living individuals.

And this is something we

discussed in our last meeting.

I think that's

legislative if I'm not mistaken but it's certainly
a numismatic tradition.
MR. WEINMAN:

Yeah.

In this particular

legislation, we have a little more leeway.
MR. TUCKER:

Okay.

MR. WEINMAN:

-- than we had because the

legislation simply talks about honoring individual
Native Americans.

You're right.

tradition (indiscernible).

It is a

But there are some

programs that specifically prohibit featuring a
living person.
so but it is

This one does not necessarily do
tradition that we try to honor.

MR. TUCKER:
clarification.

Okay.

Thank you for that

And then a third factor that kind of guided me
as I looked at this portfolio was, as others have
said, the importance of a feather or eagle
symbolism.

So I'll just quickly run through some

of my thoughts here.
Number 1, I think the details are too fine for
26.5 millimeter canvas which is what we're working
with.
For number 3, the feather seemed almost to me
like an artificial addition to this design.
They're too central almost as if it's about
feathers rather the space program.
And design 4, to me, this -- the man holding
the feather, to me, specifically identified that
as John Herrington.

And that was what got me

thinking about the depiction of living
individuals.
On number 5, I think the word "Honoring" is
superfluous.

And that's something that I noticed

in some of the other legends as well.

Also, the

Cherokee star is significant but I don't think
it's immediately iconic to the average viewer.

It

looks federal, I think, to the average coin
collector rather than Native American.
Let's see.
design.

Number 7, I love the bald eagle

I think that's well done.

legend is too broad.

I think the

Again, it's not speaking

specifically to Native American involvement in the
space program.
For number 8, I don't know if this is
significant but the feathers appear to be falling
downward rather than going up to heaven.

I don't

know if that's something that is important to this
design.

And again, this is a design that does not

specifically mention Native Americans although the
symbolism is there with the feathers.
Number 9, I like the symbolism of this design
and I think the questions I had about the
technicalities of the shadow have been addressed
by Don.

Again -- and as Mary said, this is a

design that does not specifically mention American
Indians.
Number 10 is too busy.
Number 12 I like.

We've been over that.

And this is actually my

favorite in this portfolio.
well balanced.

It's simple but it's

It includes a relevant legend.

My

only concern, it might be a bit too finely
detailed, again, for the 26.5 millimeter canvas
that we're working on.
13 is too busy and finely detailed.
14 makes specific mention of engineers which
leaves out electricians, mathematicians,
astronauts, system designers, architects, software
techs and others.

I don't know if that's a big

issue but that's something that jumped out at me
for number 14 although, again, the design is
simple and bold enough, I think, to translate well
to a dollar size coin.
15 I think is too finely detailed to translate
to the canvas.

And the legend is too specific.

16 is not gearing up toward space.

It's too

generic.
And 17 and 18 lack the legend, again,
specifically connecting to Native Americans.
Those are my comments.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you so much, Dennis.

We all have our score sheets in front of us.
MR. VIOLA:
MS. LANNIN:

Mary?
I'm sorry.

I didn't look up.

Herman, yes?
MR. VIOLA:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. VIOLA:
discussion.

Can I add something?
Sure.
I'm very pleased with the

And I have to agree that some of

these designs -- first of all, number 9 could
really work if you change the suggested clip to
American Indian (indiscernible) effort.

You got

to realize that for Indians, the ultimate feather
carrier is the eagle.

And it is so important in

Indian -- you know, the eagle is what takes us to
the spirit world afterwards.

And so it's

(indiscernible) really (indiscernible).

And then

the stars are so important because many tribes
believe that they came to earth as fallen stars.
So you've really got a nice combination there for
the Indian community.
But again, also, I'm very happy with number 8.
I think that works, too.

So I just thought that

I'd throw that in for you.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you for that clarification,

Herman.
I also have a question.

On one of our designs

it said American Indians and the rest seemed to
say Native American.
MR. VIOLA:
MS. LANNIN:

Right.
How would you define the most

correct term -MR. VIOLA:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. VIOLA:

Well --- that a tribe would appreciate.
The truth is, in the -- American

Indians want to be known as American Indians.
They say everybody born in America is a native
American.

And in the Indian country, you know,

this -- I probably shouldn't say this publicly but
anyhow, you know, we all know that Columbus was
looking for India and he took a wrong turn and he
got to South America and he met this people and he
said, Oh, I’m in India.
own names.

But they all had their

And my Indian friends say, well, we've

had this name now for 500 years.

We're so

grateful he wasn't looking for the Virgin Islands.
But that means Indians -- all you have to do is
look at the name of the Museum of the American
Indians.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. VIOLA:

Okay.
It's run by American Indians.

They could have picked what they wanted.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. VIOLA:

Sure.
And so, really, a lot of Indians

think that people are so focused on native
American their headbands are too tight.

And so,

the path -- but either way, Indians would be very
grateful if you have native American just so they
get the recognition that they're all part of this
(indiscernible), too, and they get some
recognition.
MS. LANNIN:

So do you think that it would be

important if we choose a design that uses the word
Native American that we could change the text to
read American Indian?
MR. VIOLA:
very easily.

Well, you could (indiscernible)

MS. STAFFORD:

And, Madam Chair, the theme

American Indian in the space program actually was
developed by the National Museum of the American
Indian to (indiscernible) at this point.
MS. LANNIN:
All right.

Okay.

Thank you.

Any other questions?

MS. WASTWEET:

Heidi?

I just want to echo that I like

your idea, too, of changing the text in that
design to make it work.

I like the idea that the

eagle is the carrier of the feather.
As we're going through this program, it brings
to mind that in my seven years on the committee,
I've noticed a trend in that the stakeholders and
all of the people involved in these programs, it
is a monumental effort to get to this point to get
a coin made.

And by the time they get here, they

have a tendency to want to put everything but the
kitchen sink on here because they're so invested
in this and they're so steeped in their
organization.

They want everything on the coin.

And it's our job on this committee with our
combined expertise, it's our job to hold them

back, to let them know that more -- less is more.
And when you try to put on too much and try to be
all inclusive, you end up excluding someone or
something.

And we here on this committee, we've

looked at coins more than most people and we know
that the symbolic speaks louder than anything
else.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

Letting people's

imaginations run wild is far better, I think.
So Greg would like to say a little bit about
the scoring system so that Kareem understands and
so we can all go over it again.
Greg?
MR. WEINMAN:

Yes.

First of all, whoever is

on the phone, please remember to please mute your
phone.

We're getting some static over the line.

The scoring system, for everybody in the room
and those that are new members, this is a ballot
but it's not private.

In other words, we will

take these -- your name should be on it.
public record.
document.

It's a

And we will compile into a summary

There is a score required for every design.
0, 1, 2 or 3.

A

This is a matter of how strong you

feel or don't feel about a particular design.
you're not voting for any one design.
giving a score to every design.

So

You're

Obviously, the 0,

for the sake of convenience, you can just leave it
blank.

But ideally, a 0, 1, 2 or 3, 3 being the

strongest.

And then we compile the scores and a

maximum score for a particular design would be a
27 today based on nine members in our quorum.
And there has been a policy that the CCAC has
followed for a number of years that in order to
receive a recommendation from the CCAC, it needs
to have at least 50 percent support which today
would be 14 points.
And so, once again, for those in the room,
this is not a private voting system, it's a public
voting system.

This is for convenience and

(indiscernible) very efficient system that was
developed at the very beginning of the CCAC and
very able members of design office will quickly
compile your scores.

So if you could at this moment, take the time
and put either a 0, 1, 2 or 3 by each design.
Yes, Tom?
MR. URAM:

Would you like to make a comment on

the merit?
MR. WEINMAN:
that.

Yes.

Thank you very much for

This is something that was added by a

resolution by this particular group of CCAC
members understanding that not every design may
necessarily be the perfect design for this
particular program.

But because these scores are

taken into consideration when we decide whether or
not to renew contracts of our outside artists, we
decide that it's important to note -- if you think
a particular design has artistic merit, it may not
be appropriate for the program because of
symbology or because of some other consideration
but if it is a design that you think this is an
artist you'd like to see continue with the
program, we encourage you to check the "Merit"
box.

And that will be taken into consideration

when we evaluate how a particular outside artist

is serving the Mint and serving the program.
So please make sure to put your name on the
ballot.

Do your scoring and then when you're

ready, pass it -- either bring it or pass it down
to me and I will pass it over to our very able
staff members who will get to work.
Thank you.
(Pause)
MR. WEINMAN:

I will also note that once the

scores are calculated, and that could take a
little while so we may start the next program, we
will report out what the scoring was and at that
time, it is generally the tradition of the CCAC to
entertain any motions as to what the
recommendation should be and what form the
recommendation should be.
MS. LANNIN:

So while you're tabulating, we

should start with 2020.
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. LANNIN:
record.

Absolutely.
Okay.

I'll say that for the

While Greg and the staff are tabulating,

April, could you go through the candidate designs

for 2020, please?
MS. STAFFORD:

Absolutely.

For 2020, the design theme is Elizabeth
Peratrovich and Alaska's anti-discrimination law.
One of the first anti-discrimination laws in
the United States prohibiting discrimination and
access to public accommodations was passed in the
Alaskan Territorial government in 1945.

There was

Elizabeth Peratrovich of the Tlingit nation
through her tireless advocacy for Alaskan natives
along with her husband, Roy, who gave an
impassioned speech, a testimony, in the Alaskan
Senate in support of the law.

She's widely

credited with getting it passed.

2020 marks the

75th anniversary of Peratrovich's famous testimony
and the anti-discrimination law itself.
The CFA, the Senate Committee on Indian
Affairs and the tribe and family of Elizabeth
Peratrovich identified design 6 as their primary
preference.

The Congressional Native American

Caucus of the House of Representatives identified
design 11 as theirs.

So to go through the reverse designs for
consideration:
Reverse 1 shows Elizabeth Peratrovich during
her compelling testimony to the Alaskan Senate and
her push to pass the anti-discrimination law.

The

Big Dipper and the North Star represent Alaska.
Additional inscriptions include "Equal Rights for
all and Elizabeth Peratrovich.
Design 2 depicts Elizabeth Peratrovich
testifying before the legislative assembly of the
Alaska Territory.

Placing the viewer behind and

to the side is intended to direct the emphasis
away from her portrait and focus it instead on the
power of action required to change hearts and
improve the circumstances of the marginalized
people.
The pulpit and microphone symbolize free
speech as guaranteed by the First Amendment and
suggests the moral justice of her message.
Additional inscriptions include "Elizabeth
Peratrovich and Anti-Discrimination Act of 1945"
Design 3 shows Peratrovich giving her famous

testimony in support of one of the nation's first
anti-discrimination laws.

Additional inscriptions

include "Elizabeth Peratrovich".
Design 4 depicts Elizabeth Peratrovich wearing
a button blanket, the Tlingit garment usually worn
for ceremonial purposes.

In her hands, she holds

notes for her presentation.

The background

features a ceremonial Chilkat blanket.

Additional

inscriptions include "Anti-Discrimination Act of
1945".
Design 5 depicts Peratrovich as she holds
notes for her presentation.

The background

features a ceremonial Chilkat blanket with
additional inscriptions "Anti-Discrimination Act
of 1945".
Design 6 features a portrait of Elizabeth
Peratrovich whose advocacy was the deciding factor
in the passing of the anti-discrimination law of
1945.

The foreground features the symbol of the

Tlingit raven moiety of which she was a member.
Additional inscriptions include "AntiDiscrimination Law of 1945".

Again, this was the

recommendation of the CFA, the first preferred
design by the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs,
the Peratrovich family and the first preferred
design of the Tlingit nation.
Design 7 shows Peratrovich as she opens
ornately-carved doors symbolic of her efforts to
secure one of the first anti-discrimination laws
in the United States which prohibits
discrimination in access to public accommodations.
Additional inscriptions include "Elizabeth
Peratrovich", "1945" and "Anti-Discrimination
Act".
Design 8 features a raven symbolic of
Peratrovich's Tlingit moiety entering through
barred doors.

The raven holds the sun symbolic of

the light of truth in its beak.

The hand pushes

open the door which has an equal sign symbolic of
fair access.

Additional inscriptions include

"Elizabeth Peratrovich".
Design 9 commemorates Peratrovich's advocacy
of the Anti-Discrimination Act by depicting a
raven with a key to open the door to equality.

Additional inscriptions include "AntiDiscrimination Law of 1945".
Design 10 features a raven set in the Alaskan
landscape.
in the sky.

Above it, the Aurora Borealis shimmers
Additional inscriptions include

"Alaska Anti-Discrimination Act of 1945" and
"Elizabeth Peratrovich".
Design 11 shows a Tlingit person dancing
cloaked in a Chilkat blanket.

The dancer shadow

takes the form of a raven in flight meant to
symbolize freedom from discrimination while also
serving as a nod to Peratrovich's moiety.
Additional inscriptions include "1945 AntiDiscrimination Law".
And, Madam Chair, that concludes the candidate
designs for 2020 Native American Dollar Coin
program.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you very much.

These are

all very exciting.
I would like to ask Jeanne if she wouldn't
mind starting on this.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

MS. LANNIN:

Oops.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

Yes.

No?

Now we can hear you.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Thank you.

I think that this portfolio gives us an
opportunity to put something pretty exciting on
our coin list.

Something extraordinary beyond

what people think the coins should be.

So I would

strongly recommend moving away from the portrait
and going toward the abstract design of the raven.
I especially like number 10.

Number 10, to

me, simply says (indiscernible) it says in words
"Alaska Anti-Discrimination Act of 1945".
also it's Elizabeth Peratrovich.
things on this coin, I think.
is so outstanding.

And

We need those

But also, the raven

And I also think that number 8

with the raven coming through the doors, those
symbology of Elizabeth's work with antidiscrimination is really important.
I think if we have these simple -- simple
designs that are extraordinary beyond what we've
been doing, we will make a good statement to for

this reverse program, Native American coins.
Thank you.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Jeanne.

Kareem, what are your thoughts?
MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:

I particularly like number

9 because it seems to combine all the issues,
equality, the Native American take on what their
rights should be and the Tlingit raven.
it's very well depicted.

I think

I thought that one was

very well done.
And I also thought that number 7 was very well
done depicting a woman breaking through the doors.
Again, the Native American (indiscernible)
depiction of the raven, I think, tells what it's
all about very simply and eloquently.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

Herman?
MR. VIOLA:

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

These again are wonderful designs.

And I do

think I have to highlight this very distinctive
northwest coast art.

I mean, it is so unique and

distinctive in the Indian community.

And, you know, and I appreciate the family
liking number 6.

In fact, I was chatting with one

of my colleagues at the museum.

She actually

works with the son of Peratrovich.
mean, he's a sculptor himself.

And so, I

He's an artist.

The fact that he likes it is nice.
But I would have to agree with Jeanne.

I

think number 10 is so distinctive and striking and
it will be such a dramatic (indiscernible) that I
would -- my vote would be for that one.
But I also like number 9 which, again, is
quite creative.

And I agree, we want to show the

representation of the raven which is very
important in the Indian community.
And so it's -- all of these kind of combine it
pretty well.

But my first choice would be, I

think, 10 and my second choice would be 9.
Thank you.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Herman.

Dennis?
MR. TUCKER:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

For me, some of these designs were like coming

home because my father and my brothers took trips
up to Canada and in the northwest back in the day
back before I was born.

But they brought back

souvenirs and artwork that showed the raven and
other symbols, other Canadian symbols.

So I grew

up seeing these hanging on our walls at home.
Designs 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 are a little too
photographic for what we are moving toward and the
type of designs that we are recommending in recent
years.

Getting away from the concept of pictures

on coins.

And there's really not -- there's space

to tell part of a story but not the entire story.
And that's where symbolism becomes more important.
Number 6 stood out to me.
great portrait.

I think it's a

The unique typography, I would

mention, in the lettering of the "United States of
America".

It has an excellent raven symbol.

this is one that stood out for me as I was
reviewing the portfolio.
I think 7 is too finely detailed for the
canvas.
8, to me, looked like a soccer logo.

So

Number 9 is the one that really stood out to
me as the winner in this group.

It's an excellent

use of texture and varying incuse work and relief.
It has the symbolism not only of the raven but
also of the raven opening up that locked door to
equality.

And that's something that some of the

other designs don't really capture as well, I
think.

So I think it's a beautiful design and it

tells the story once you really spend some time
with it.
Number 10.

I liked -- I was wondering if it

would translate well to the (indiscernible) canvas
though -- so I had some reservations with that
one.
And I did like number 11 but I think it would
be better for a medal canvas as opposed to the
small dollar size.
So, for me, number 9 is a clear winner in this
portfolio.
MS. LANNIN:
Robert?
MR. HOGE:

Thank you, Dennis.

Put your coffee down there.

Yeah.

I agree that it's probably a little

bit unfortunate to have portraiture as a really
dominant part of this design because, remember, we
do have another Native American woman's image on
the other side, the imaginary (indiscernible) -MS. LANNIN:
MR. HOGE:

That's a good point.
-- of Sacagawea.

And here -- it's

nice to think of in terms of Elizabeth Peratrovich
image but maybe it's not fully necessary.
However, I do especially like the designs of
number 6.

I think it has a handsome portrait of

her and it has a very nice representation of the
raven.

It has a certain amount of simplicity.

says what it needs to say.

It

Again, I especially

like the lettering style.
For the other designs, number 2, it's okay,
but I don't like (indiscernible).

And I think

just looking at it in a straightforward way, we're
not really going to think about what this means
unless we read all the details and inscription.
Number 3.

I think this really just looks a

little bit too cartoonish for my taste.

And

again, it isn't really conveying the message

necessarily.
Number 4 is a beautiful piece.

I think it's

probably just a little bit too complicated,
however, and more suitable for a medal design than
for a small coin.
Number 5.

Again, a beautiful piece but just a

little bit too busy.
fringes.

The fine detail of those

They would be like little die cracks or

something or hairline scratches on the coin.
Number 6.

We've already mentioned.

Number 7.

Again, a handsome looking thing.

And I like the idea of thrusting open the doors.
But the details, I think, would be lost again.
Trying to define this, we see a nice drawing here
but the quality of the clothing and the carvings
on the doors, this is not going to come through
very well on the coin.
I felt that number 8 kind of (indiscernible)
through thing but, like Dennis, I agree that this
looks like some kind of a cartoonish logo.
Number 9.

I feel this is somewhat the same.

It's a very flat design.

And it's sort of

anomalous to have the traditional looking raven
image with this western key and a funny little
lock mechanism, what looks like an equal sign.
like a key is equal to a dollar.

So

Kind of strange.

Number 10 I think is beautiful and inspired
design but I'm not sure it would come across
terribly well.
flat.

It looks like it would be very

It might be uninteresting because of that

and not really represent the Aurora Borealis in a
nice way.
Number 11, again, a beautiful design but
probably much better suited for something like a
medal.
Thank you.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

Erik, your comments.
MR. JANSEN:

Let's see.

I probably shy away

from any of the portraiture designs here, a
two-headed coin and a tail side.

I don't know.

But I'm finding the message of anti-discrimination
and the fact that that primary message here as the
wake-maker of this coin to me seems to be more

important than the personage of the individual.
So I'm going to start -- I will say something
about 6.

I live in Seattle and not that this coin

has to be a technical work but the Native American
Tlingit or otherwise northwestern art design,
Ovoid art, it's known as, has some very specific
rules.

And not that artists don't have freedom

and latitude and artistic freedom here.

But the

raven on design number 6 so violates the Native
American art ovoid form that is -- I find it very
visually disturbing, personally.

That's only

because I've been immersed in the genuine art form
for 20 years.
The only design on here that really carries
forward any sense of integrity to the ovoid art
design is design number 10.

And I wouldn't say

it's perfect but it's the closest approximation.
It doesn't really round off to kind of insulting,
to be quite frank with you.
And I would encourage the Mint to bounce those
(indiscernible) comments off of the Native
American Museum because their word obviously is

stronger than mine.

But I'm just calling to

attention saying please help here.
MS. STAFFORD:

No.

actually very much.

We appreciate that

The form line of the Tlingit

nation here was something that the artists
struggled with.
MR. JANSEN:

Yeah.

MS. STAFFORD:

There were several

(indiscernible).
MR. JANSEN:

Very obvious.

MS. STAFFORD:

But -- and so, it's on our

radar to absolutely go back round to curators in
the Tlingit nation -MR. JANSEN:

Thank you.

MS. STAFFORD:

-- experts in form line about

the -- they're very aware of them.
The raven moiety on 6 was remarked to be
acceptable.

But we would --

MR. JANSEN:
MS. STAFFORD:

It's barely --

MR. JANSEN:
MS. STAFFORD:

-- still --- (indiscernible).
Yes.

I understand.

And so

they knew that we would be coming no matter what
design goes forward its recommendation.
Thank you for that.
MR. JANSEN:

Yeah, you bet.

So I am really pretty firmly not interested in
design number 6 for all the reasons I've
described.
Number 7.

This as well as design number 8,

and the lesser extent 10, are all a little
deceptive because when we get these drawings which
use an excessive amount of gray scaling, it
becomes very difficult to translate that to what
will be an effective sculpt.
Heidi's platform.

Normally, this is

But in this case, I think it

applies.
And when you use that dimension to look at
number 7, we're very quickly going to migrate to
just too much detail in too small a format.
You'll never be able to tell that this is even a
woman, per se, with the size of the palette and
the sculpt resolution.
So 7, to me, disappears into almost a

meaningless form when you reduce it to the palette
we’re talking about.
Number 8.

Wow.

I don't think I've ever seen

a smiley face in an ovoid art design as the
central body of this thing is.

And I'm not sure

the hand I've ever seen with an equal sign on it.
Again, artistic merit being what it is, it's kind
of an abusive form of artistic interpretation on
top of a relatively sacred Native American art
form.
So it's just such a mix mode that I'm having a
hard time enjoying it.

And the gray scaling

around the perimeter of this is very deceptive
because it takes away the impact of the negative
space.

I think in a sculpt, those doors would end

up being way too lightweight and they would never
contrast to the open air that the artist has
intended for the opening that's there.

So I think

the sculpt would totally lose any focus here and
would just be a smattering of lines that wouldn't
make any sense visually.
Number 9.

Same comment on the integrity of

the ovoid art.

I think there is kind of a bit of

a reach here to get the equal symbol on top of the
lock with the key in the beak of the raven.

It's

kind of a long -- that's a long story there.
10, unfortunately, I think, when you take away
the blackness of this, unless that's going to be
an incuse major element -- is it?
MR. EVERHART:

Yes.

Yeah.

That's the way

it's -- that's the language that we use when we're
going to incuse.
MR. JANSEN:

We have a black -Okay.

If that is a major incuse

element, that's going to be the gravity of this
design and would, I think, make it more effective
than otherwise what was going to come across is
almost like a menu oriented thing of text and some
stuff.

So if that's a heavy incuse as deep and as

flat as you can go and if the ovoid symbols can be
corrected for integrity, April, I think 10 kind of
is where I end up defaulting as a design I would
vote for.
Now having said all of that, number 11 was
actually the design I liked the best.

And I think

it uses the negative space most effectively.

When

you read the text of what the artist has in mind,
the raven, as the shadow, is a very powerful
symbol.

And the blanket which the detail, again,

will be lost on the quarter -- or, excuse me -- on
the palette of the dollar here.

The blanket is

positively one of the most powerful tribal
symbols, the Chilkat blanket.

It's really an

elegant design which might work better in a larger
flatter metal palette that artistically, I think
it's by far the best design on the page.
Thank you.
MS. LANNIN:

Thanks, Erik.

Tom.
MR. URAM:

Madam Chairman, thank you.

pretty much on designs 8, 9, 10 and 11.

I focus

And,

first of all, congratulations to the artists that
did these.

We're finally getting to the point

where, you know, if my colleagues recall, we
almost had the turtle.

I think (indiscernible)

turtle, right?
MS. LANNIN:

Some day we'll get a turtle.

MR. URAM:

And so we almost had that.

But I'll address number 10 first.

And I think

it's being incused in the different things there.
But what struck me there is the first thing I saw
was "Alaska".

And it just reminded me of the

quarter program.

You know, it just looked like

that's what we were revolving into here.
mean, I think it's a great design.

So, I

I like the

fact that her name is on there and I like the fact
-- the opportunity there.

That bothers me.

I

would probably be for it if "Alaska" wasn't on
there, simply, really.
11, from what was just said, is a little too
much,
So that brings me to number 8 and number 9.
And I really don't think in number 8 that is too
logo looking.

Look at the (indiscernible) that

we're going to be dealing with and the size.

I

think we're finally getting some creativity from
the designers and the artistic -- when someone
would look at this on the small (indiscernible)
and ask what it is or question what it might be.

And so, I do like it and I think that it would be
up to the Mint to make sure that those doors were
what they are supposed to be and that the
reflection -- if anything, I would have liked to
have seen it with even just by itself with maybe a
circle around it or something versus the doors.
But I understand where it's coming from.

But I

think that it's going to get some of my vote.
Coming to number 9, I think is where I'm going
to -- is going to be my default here.

The only

thing that I wish was Elizabeth's name would have
been on here.

Maybe that key could be made a

little smaller in relation to what Robert said
about the key and how large it is or whatever.
But maybe if it was smaller.
But what bothers me a little bit about this
design is the "United States of America", the
stylistic -- doesn't seem to match.

I'd rather

see a different stylistic lettering to reflect
what we're trying to do here in the Native
American tone.
So my vote's going to go for number 9 with

maybe a stylistic approach or something where that
lettering could be more Native American looking or
a little different stylistic if that's possible,
Don.

I suppose lettering is possible.
MR. EVERHART:

Yeah.

The thing is, we kind of

settle on two typefaces when we do the Native
American.

We use Lithos and Papyrus.

And I think

we're trying to post some variation into that
because it gets old after a while.

But I'm sure

that there's something that we could figure out
with that if we do go forward with it.
MR. URAM:

And even if it was even the smaller

where the image was a little bolder and the
lettering was a little smaller.

Like I said, the

only thing that I miss is the fact that
Elizabeth's name is not on there.

But all in all,

I think that's where I'm going to gravitate,
between 9 and 8.
MS. STAFFORD:
MR. URAM:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

MS. STAFFORD:
MS. LANNIN:

Madam Chair --

-- may I assert one comment?
Yes.

Yes.

MS. STAFFORD:

I just wanted to piggyback on

Mr. Uram's and Mr. Hoge's commentary about design
9.

We would be -- the Mint would be remiss if we

didn't share with you that for this particular
design, while it was agreed that it should remain
in the portfolio for consideration that some of
the feedback that we received from historians at
the National Museum of the American Indian, they,
too, agreed that there was somehow an incongruity
with pairing the raven moiety with the very, very
western key and that door.

So they had a hard

time processing that pairing.
I will say -- this speaks to Mr. Jansen's
observations as well.

We felt -- we often

struggle with wanting to keep as many designs in
the portfolio so the committees can see what the
artists are trying to do knowing that there is
still oftentimes some work and oftentimes many
considerations about appropriateness and is it
right for this particular theme.

So I just wanted

to be sure to share that with everybody.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

Heidi?
MS. WASTWEET:

Since we're talking about

design 9, we might as well stay there and I'll
address that.

I, too, am drawn to this design but

I disagree with the criticism of being incongruous
with the western symbolism.

Isn't the idea of an

anti-discrimination about two cultures getting
along?

It makes perfect sense to me to have the

strong Indian style of the eagle with the western
key and door.

I think it works very, very well as

a symbol.
And I also think that the boldness of the
design would look great on a coin.
little crowded.

It does seem a

I think maybe that’s why the

lettering doesn't look as good because the eagle's
just a little crowded.

And if it were just shrunk

a little bit so there's a little breathing space
around the eagle then I think the lettering would
look much better and it's not a big change.

I

really love this design.
Design 10.

I actually didn't even really look

at this design until Jeanne talked about it.

I do

like the eagle.

I think the reason --

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:

(indiscernible).

Excuse me.

you for correcting me.

Thank you.

The raven.

Thank

I think the

reason I overlooked this is that, again, it's a
big busy because of the representatives of
northern lights above which also look like claw
marks.

And really, it's not necessarily.

"Alaska".

It says

That's where this originated so I think

having the word "Alaska" is appropriate because
that is where this took place.
But then the northern light serves no purpose.
And I want to send a message to the artist.

It's

okay to have open space on (indiscernible).

You

don't have to cover every single bit of the coin
with design and images and pencil strokes.

So if

we just took out the northern lights, it would
really clean up this design and be much more
attractive.
Design 11.

This is a beautiful drawing and

this would make a beautiful medal.
look to me like a coin design.

But it doesn't

And there are

distinct differences between medal designs and
coin designs.

And it's one of those things, like

a cliché, I know it when I see it.
this speaks medal not coin.
the drawings.

And to me,

So I want to commend

I don't support this as a coin

design.
If we go back to design 8, I think this is -symbolically it's muddled.
trying to say.
like a sun.

I appreciate what it's

The sun in the beak doesn't look

It looks like a start and it's way

too small to see.
is disturbing.

The wing and the hand, to me,

The fish doesn't say what it is

saying in the written description.
don't look like doors.

And the doors

It looks like a window.

And to me, if I wasn't reading the explanation, it
looks to me like he's still in the fish and he's
trying to escape through the window.
So it's important what it says without the
written explanation.

As I said before, gestures

important and this is the case.

So good effort

but I think it misses the mark.
Design 7.

Some of the same problem.

It looks

like a window not a door because of where it cuts
her just below the waist or on her hips.
doesn't look like a door.
size of the palette.
drawing.

It

It's very busy for the

It's a lovely design, lovely

Love those ravens.

But I don't support

the (indiscernible) program.
Design 6 which has momentum, again, really
lovely drawing of Elizabeth.

The raven does have

some issues as Erik astutely pointed out is the
ovoid style.

And it does have all the elements

(indiscernible).

But if you scrunch your eyes at

it and look at it just as a design, it's not
attractive as a whole even though the bits of it
are very attractive.
attractive.
Hoge said.

As a whole, I don't find it

And I also agree with what Robert
We end up with two portraits of women

on opposite sides of the coin.

And we have to be

conscientious about obverse and reverse and how
they work together.

So while she was very

instrumental in this, I think it says in the other
designs.
And I think enough has been said about

(indiscernible).
MS. LANNIN:

(indiscernible).
Okay.

Thank you, Heidi.

I think that through our discussion, most of
us have agreed that we want more symbolic things
and not have Elizabeth on there.

I'm sure their

family won't -- will be saddened to hear that.
My favorite has been -- I've been toggling
back and forth between 9 and 10.

Number 9 I like

very much because I think that that can be a
really striking coin.

In regard to what Robert

said about a key equals a dollar, why does an
equal sign even have to be on there?
just be a doorknob.

Why can't it

You know, the raven is still

opening a locked door which I think is the message
with the anti-discrimination law of 1945.

So that

-- I think that this is my favorite design
currently.
Jeanne's favorite, number 10, is the only one
where we actually have the word "Alaska".

And to

Tom's point, it starts to look like a state
quarter.

But this one wound up to be too busy for

me with the northern lights.

It does get

Elizabeth Peratrovich's name in there.

And as

Erik pointed out, this is probably the closest to
the actual art that we should be looking for.

But

I trust that the Mint will get together with
American Indian artists to make sure that what
we're doing is absolutely correct.
I do love number 11 but, again, I agree with
you, it would make a great medal.
beautiful design.

It's just a

But the fringe would be tough

to do on a coin that small.

But commendations to

the artist for that.
So I think I'm going to throw my votes to
number 9 and see what the Mint can do about
erasing that equal sign.

Okay?

Dennis, you have a question.
MR. TUCKER:

Madam Chairman, I would like to

make an emphasis for number 9 as well following
this discussion.

The anti-discrimination law of

1945 came about because natives -- Native
Americans and European Americans were living
together.

If it were a community only of Native

Americans then anti-discrimination would not be a

huge issue.

And we're talking about two sides of

the same coin, if you will.

Anti-discrimination

means nobody's persecuting us.

Equality means we

are equal to and the same as our neighbors.
So I understand the discomfort perhaps with
combining the native imagery of a raven with the
European imagery of a lock and key but I think
because this is a community in Alaska and in the
broader American landscape where different kinds
of people are living together, we have to look at
both anti-discrimination and equality.

And that's

where the key becomes important with the raven.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

Does anybody else

have any comments?
Okay.

Greg, would you like to announce how

2019 did, please?
MR. WEINMAN:

First, everybody, please

complete your ballots for 2020 and (indiscernible)
over as you have them completed.

And then send

them off to our staff.
I do have the results for the 2019 Native
American one dollar coin.

There were -- I'll just

cut to the chase and say there were two designs
that received (indiscernible) threshold votes.
The top ranking design is 08 which received 19 of
possible 27 votes.

Following close behind that

was design number 9 which received 15 of a
possible 27.
The others, just if you want to keep score:

1

received two votes; 2 received four votes; 3
received two votes; 4 received zero votes; 5
received 1 vote; 6 received zero votes; 7 received
3 votes; as noted, 8 received 19 votes; as noted,
9 received 15 votes; 10 received 3 votes; 12
received 3 votes; 12A received 4 votes; 13
received zero votes; 14 received 5; 15 received
zero; 16 received zero; 17 received 2; and 18
received 1.
MR. JANSEN:

So as a point of clarification,

does that mean our recommended design is number 8
or do we have to take further action, Madam Chair?
MS. LANNIN:

Our threshold was 14.

MR. JANSEN:

Right.

qualify.

So we have two that

I'm just curious how we move --

MR. WEINMAN:

Typically, by default, it would

mean that number 8 would be the recommended
design.

But in the past, the committee has

welcomed motions to either modify it or to choose
a different design if you so desire.
The key -- the important factor here is this
is a tool not an end-all.
be a tool.

The voting is meant to

And so it's -- now you have -- it's

providing your data.

This is still an open

meeting and so therefore it's probably best if
there's a motion to make a recommendation or to
comment in general.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. VIOLA:

Comments?
Well, I would make a

recommendation for number 9 -MS. LANNIN:

Herman, can you turn your mic on,

please?
MR. VIOLA:

I would make a recommendation for

number 9 if we can change the "A Journey to the
Stars" as someone else recommended and put
"American Indian Space Program" or something of
(indiscernible) 'cause I do think it's a very nice

design and I think it would be very striking with
that eagle and the stars.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. VIOLA:

So you're making a motion?
I make a motion.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Any other comments?
MR. TUCKER:

(indiscernible).
Jeanne, second.
Dennis?

My concern with 9 is still with

the technical aspect of it.

And maybe Don and Ron

can speak again about the omitting of that shadow
and how that would work.

I like the design.

I

like the eagle but I'm curious about the
production of the coin.
MR. HARRIGAL:

Yeah.

I'll take that.

This is

Ron.
We're looking at those type of designs that
have a texture that's sort of like that.

There's

a number of ways that a sculptor can deal with
that.

They can raise the plain a bit and we can

apply texture either manually or through the laser
process or we can keep it flat.

I mean, we're

going to look at it both ways when it comes that

way.

If you are looking to do any incusing of

letters then you want to raise the plain.
where it says "A Journey to the Stars".

Like
If you

were going to incuse that then you would want to
raise that as a plain.
When you think about the girl scout image that
we did where you had raised and textured it.

And

so you're looking at, on a design like this, what
would you in a crew fashion, what would you polish
and what would you frost.

And, you know, when we

have the laser capability and they were able to do
somewhat more texturing of that frost to give it a
little bit more pattern look.
I don't know if that answers your question or
not but this one is definitely doable.
MR. TUCKER:

Okay.

That answers my question.

MS. LANNIN:

Any other questions?

Robert?
MR. HOGE:

I still have to express a strong

difference of opinion.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. HOGE:

Can you put your mic down?
I still have to express a strong

difference of opinion with regard to using shadow
and smoke.

I think for coin designs, this kind of

subtlety with no relief is really not appropriate.
And I think it would be an unfortunate selection.
It just -- it doesn't look like a very good design
for a coin.
MS. LANNIN:

Erik?

MR. JANSEN:

I would like to actually

encourage voting against this motion.

I think

design number 8 would be a much more striking
integration of the Native American theme.
design number 9.

I love

I said so in my comments.

Unfortunately, it doesn't carry forth the
connotation of a Native American contribution to
the program.

And so I think between that primary

message in design number 8, I think number 8 will
be a much more impressive (indiscernible) coin
especially if the planets get their due amount of
relief and contrast to the sculpt.

I would

encourage just to stick with design 8 and vote
against this motion.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

We need to vote a motion

run up by Herman and seconded by Jeanne.

All in

favor of choosing number 9 -MR. WEINMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

With modification.
-- with modification -- three.

So the motion fails.

And we wind up with our

selection number 8 -- I'm sorry.

Heidi?

Were you

voting or just asking -MS. WASTWEET:

When you're finished, I'd like

to make a motion.
MS. LANNIN:
MS. WASTWEET:

Okay.

Would you (indiscernible)?

I would like to make a motion

to adopt design 8 based on the higher point score.
And I would like to -- motion changing the
"Charting a Path to Space" to "Native" -- or,
excuse me -- "American Indians in the Space
Program".
MS. LANNIN:
MR. EVERHART:

Can we fit all that in, Don?
How about "American Indians in

Space"?
MS. WASTWEET:

Is that accurate?

I mean, some

of them were not in space but in the space program
on earth.

MR. EVERHART:

Well, I think putting "Program"

in there -MS. WASTWEET:

If it's short enough.

MR. EVERHART:

It's going to --

MS. WASTWEET:

I mean --

MR. EVERHART:

Yeah.

It's going to make the

lettering so small that I think it's going to be
illegible.
MS. WASTWEET:

April, do you think that that

phrase is acceptable to our groups?
MS. STAFFORD:

American Indians in the Space

Program is acceptable.
MS. WASTWEET:

It's actually the title --

(indiscernible) short

(indiscernible).
MR. EVERHART:

How about "In Space"?

MS. STAFFORD:

Oh.

"In Space".

We would have

to go back.
MS. WASTWEET:

Okay.

MS. STAFFORD:

I would want to go back002E

MR. JANSEN:

I think going to two lines in

text probably destroys the balance of the coin.
So less is definitely more here.

MR. VIOLA:

And the "American Indians to

Space".
MR. EVERHART:

The only other option -- you

could switch United States of America and make
that smaller and then put your other text where
that is.
MS. STAFFORD:
MR. JANSEN:

That would be great.
That was a creative solution.

Thank you.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Heidi, we need a second, I

think, for your motion.
MR. JANSEN:

Second.

MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Erik, thank you.

All in favor of Heidi's motion to -- with
Donald's massaging of "American Indians" -MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:
MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. WEINMAN:

"In Space" or --- "in Space" or "to Space" --- "in the Space Program".
-- or in the Space Program" -And recommending this design.
I'm sorry.
And recommending this design.

MS. LANNIN:

And recommending this.

All in

favor, aye.
Those opposed?
Motion passes.
So we have our reverse.
MR. HARRIGAL:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. HARRIGAL:

Just one clarification here.
Yeah, Ron.
Please clarify what inscription

do you want us to look at on that.
MS. LANNIN:

I believe that April was going to

check with -MS. STAFFORD:

We --

MR. HARRIGAL:

Okay.

MS. LANNIN:
MS. STAFFORD:

-- the stakeholder.
We have them.

Either "American

Indians in Space" or "American Indians in the
Space Program" to replace "Charting a Path to
Space" which is currently on the design.
MR. HARRIGAL:

Even if we have to flip the

inscriptions potentially.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. HARRIGAL:

Yeah.
Okay.

MS. LANNIN:

Okay?

MR. JANSEN:

Thank you.

MR. HARRIGAL:
MS. LANNIN:
everything.

Do you want -Oh, perfect.

Timing's

So Greg will now read our choices for

the 2020.
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. WEINMAN:

Hot off the press here.
Hot off the press.
For 2020, it would appear that

once again we have two designs that have received
the threshold votes.

Without hiding the ball,

design number 9 received 19 of the possible 27.
And design number 10 received the requisite 14 out
of the possible 27.
Just to go over the other designs so you know
what they received:

designs 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 all

received zero votes; design 6 received 6 votes;
design 7 received zero votes; design 8 received
four votes; and then, as noted, design 9 received
19; design 10 received 14 votes; and finally,
design 11 received 4 votes.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Any further discussions?

Any motions?

Any recommendations?

MS. WASTWEET:

Do we need to make a motion to

adopt or is that -MR. WEINMAN:

Otherwise by default, your

recommendation will be number 9 unless you want to
modify it or make any comments.

(indiscernible).

(Whispered conversation)
MS. WASTWEET:

My recommendation was to make

the image just a little smaller so that the
lettering looks better.

I'm not sure that needs

an official motion -MR. WEINMAN:
record.

The answer is recorded in the

If you wanted to have, obviously, a

motion, it gives a little more -MS. LANNIN:

Weight.

MR. WEINMAN:

-- weight but it's certainly

recorded in the transcript and the record.
MS. LANNIN:

So would you like to make that

motion?
MR. URAM:

So maybe based on that and based on

Don's suggestions when we were discussing this
that you can look at whether it's the design or

the lettering that could go either way.

Whatever

made it stand out on the (indiscernible), the
design stand out better whatever way it would be.
MS. WASTWEET:

I think I'd rather leave it at

that -MS. LANNIN:
MS. WASTWEET:

Okay.
-- rather than make an official

motion.
MS. LANNIN:

So my only question would be I

had mentioned the fact that I didn't think that
the equal sign needed to be there.

And I don't

know how people feel about that.
Dennis, what do you think?
MR. TUCKER:

I think it spells out the theme

of the -MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. TUCKER:

-- the design.

MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. TUCKER:

I think it's important --

MS. LANNIN:

I'll withdraw that then.

So if -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Can I just make a small

comment here?
MS. LANNIN:

Sure, Jeanne4.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I disagree a bit with

Heidi to make that raven smaller because the size
of the raven for me in that (indiscernible) was
what got my eye.
really hello.

That's the thing.

It was like

This is a good statement.

What

might help this, Heidi, would be to make the
dollar sign a little smaller.

And then we'd have

a little bit more negative space.
MS. WASTWEET:

That would help.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I do like the fact that

the raven is really coming so close to the United
States of America.
very powerful.

I like that very much.

It's

And I think in this design we have

everything that we have asked our artists to do.
And I thank you all for doing that.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you for your comments.

And with that, we can adjourn for early lunch.
And we'll be back here at 1 o'clock.
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

For recess.
Hmm?

MR. WEINMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

For recess.
For recess.

Sorry.

We're all

going out to play.
MR. WEINMAN:

Well, it's important -- before

we go off the record -- won't take very long -MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

In the interest of timing

-- this is a great idea.
Greg.

Thank you, April and

Why don't we take a look at our very last

item for today which is the fractional.
MS. STAFFORD:

And Megan is going to be --

(Pause)
MS. LANNIN:

So, April, are you going to

discuss this or are you leaving?
MS. STAFFORD:
MS. LANNIN:

Megan is.
Megan.

Okay.

Megan, could you

please talk to us about the 2018 American Liberty
gold fractional coin?
MS. SULLIVAN:

Earlier this year, the United

States Mint released the 2017 American Liberty 24karat one-ounce gold coin in celebration of the
Mint's 225th anniversary.

In order to provide new

and existing customers the opportunity to purchase

an American Liberty 24-karat gold coin with the
same unique modern design at a more affordable
price point, the Mint proposes offering the coin
as a one-tenth ounce fractional gold coin.
The one-tenth ounce coin is a popular
fractional gold coin based on historical sale of
American eagle coins.

And the team is currently

pulling up the images of the coin.

So we'll give

them a second.
(Pause)
MS. SULLIVAN:

So the obverse design.

This

design features a profile of Liberty wearing a
crown of stars.

Inscriptions include "Liberty

2018" and "In God We Trust".
And the reverse design.

This design features

a bold and powerful eagle in flight with eyes
toward opportunity and a determination to attain
it.

Inscriptions include "United States of

America", "E Pluribus Unum", "1/10 oz. .9999 Fine
Gold" and "10 Dollars".
And that's the end of our descriptions.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you very much.

I think

that this is going to be a big seller.
Okay.

Do we have any technical questions?

This seems to be -- okay.

Dennis first, then you,

Erik.
MR. TUCKER:

My only question would be the

location of designers and sculptors initials and
mintmarks.

I think those are the elements that

are missing in these sketches.
coin.

So I'm curious where those would go.

MR. HARRIGAL:
Okay.

It's a very small

We did talk about the -- okay.

So we did talk about that because when you

look at our fractional American Eagles, you see
the initials netted.

When you get smaller on the

coin, it becomes very important because you can
only make them so small.
that.

We will be looking at

But typically, the designer of the coin --

initials are in the lower left quadrant and the
sculptor is in the lower right unless the sculptor
is the designer, then there's only one set of
initials.

And typically, for a mintmark, we put

it on the lower plain of the coin unless it just
is really very awkward and then we try to find an

alternate spot for it.

And there are some

exceptions that have occurred over the years on
mintmarks but we try to not put the mintmark where
it would be confused with engravers' or artists'
initials and even near the border so as not to
interfere with the artwork.

I don't know that I

can really add more to it than that at this point.
MR. TUCKER:

Thanks.

MR. HARRIGAL:
MR. TUCKER:

Does that work for you, Dennis?
I just want -- yes, it does.

I

wanted to make sure that I heard what your
thoughts were -MR. HARRIGAL:

Yes.

MR. TUCKER:

-- on that.

MR. JANSEN:

And what will the mintmark be?

Do we know where we're going to produce this?
MR. HARRIGAL:

If it's gold, it'll be West

Point.
MR. URAM:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. URAM:

So we have a W.
For "wonderful".
You could put it in the

congratulations at this time.

MR. JANSEN:

Well, I was going to say proof or

just business strike?
MR. HARRIGAL:
was in proof.

Well, obviously, this strike

So we would love to do it in proof

as well.
MR. JANSEN:

So single offer in proof

marketing?
MS. EVANS:

Yes.

MR. HARRIGAL:
MR. JANSEN:

It will be proof.

That is correct.
Okay.

So a proof.

And the

relief on this, will this be marketed as a tenthounce scaled -- I don't know how -- it's like
aerodynamic scaling.
MR. HARRIGAL:

What's the relief --

Yeah.

It would be on --

essentially, when we did the fractional buffaloes,
it would be on planchets of that style.

So they

would not be considered high relief.
MR. JANSEN:

Okay.

So a standard relief for

(indiscernible).
MR. HARRIGAL:
MR. JANSEN:

Yes.
In the marketing of this product,

'cause I know the 2016 commemorative Winged

Liberty dime did very well.

Nice price point to

the single company and that cost plus
metallurgical value.
MS. EVANS:

That is correct.

MR. JANSEN:

Is there an anticipated add or

two, whatever this file press is when you roll
this thing?
MS. EVANS:

It would be the standard price.

It would be in the range between 200 to $300.
MR. JANSEN:

Just encouragement from the

committee you ought to keep that as low as
possible.

Like coming in under 200 if we can

probably dramatically impacts the volume
opportunity here.
MS. EVANS:

Yes.

And again, this is going

according to the spot.
MR. JANSEN:

Yeah.

Of course.

Of course.

In the marketing of this thing, by putting a
tenth-ounce out there, this starts to move from -at least in this guy's mind, it starts to open up
the opportunity for collectors who might say,
well, maybe I'll just do a type collection of all

one-tenth ounce coins from the U.S. Mint as
opposed to this is a small change version of Gold
Eagle like the traditional fractional eagles were.
Any thoughts on marketing in this as a single
device or single coin offering or as a paired
triumvirate of the existing tenth-ounces that are
already out there?
MS. EVANS:

At this time, it's just going to

be the single one-tenth ounce.
MR. JANSEN:

Single proof offering standing

(indiscernible)?
MS. EVANS:

It's just a standard single proof

offering.
MR. JANSEN:

Okay.

MS. LANNIN:

Tom, you had a question?

MR. URAM:
the ones.

Yeah.

Thank you.

And Erik asked a number of

But I just I'd say that I think it's a

great idea to do a tenth in regards to another
opportunity for that price point for a collector
to get into.

And I would suggest that -- take a

look at the one-tenth and the one-twentieth and
the program that's gone on now for 30 years.

This

could really be a great start to a series of
tenth-ouncers as you just mentioned.

It could be

a continuum of a new collector base.
MR. JANSEN:

Yeah.

I don't want to imply that

any price point is magic or that any price point
is reachable necessarily by every collector.

But

one of the things we struggle with as numismatists
MS. LANNIN:

Numismatists.

MR. JANSEN:

I don't even know what I am, you

know -- is I've always wished there was a way the
Mint could -- and, of course, congressional
legislation has got to go first.

But I wish there

was a way the Mint could offer a fifty-one cent
half dollar product.

And in that sense, I'd love

to think that we could open up the lower end for
gold oriented collectors who just can't swing the
kind price point that Gold Eagles go for or even
the quarter-ounce products we put out.
I just can't say how important it is but
numismatically, quiet frankly, to the bullion
world for this to go out as close to the lowest
possible price as possible because then there is a

large section, I think, of potential purchasers
here that are not necessarily collectors.

They're

looking for a fractional denomination gold
(indiscernible)-base, quite frankly.
the buffalo fills that spot.
eagle fills that spot.
looks at it.

And maybe

Maybe the fractional

I don't know how the Mint

But when you look at the market

overall, I think it's really hard to ignore that.
And every adder on top of bullion just takes you
stratospherically away from that domain.
MR. URAM:

One thing that if I would add to

what Erik said was that the fact that it's proof
as a numismatic element to it versus just the
bullion with the business strike.

And what's

magical is -- Erik mentioned that word -- is
what's magical to the young collector, newer
collectors or even the numismatic community is the
fact that it could be a trend to a new series.
MR. JANSEN:

Yeah.

That's the real --

MS. LANNIN:

(indiscernible) Mint.

Quantities.
MS. EVANS:

The Mint has not made that

determination yet.
MS. LANNIN:

As many as you can make.

Any other comments?
Let's recess for lunch.
MR. WEINMAN:

We're in recess.

(Recess from 11:24 a.m. until 1:00 p.m.)
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

meeting back to order.

I would like to call this
I assume everybody had a

good lunch.
The next order of business is the selection of
three expert jurors from the CCAC to participate
in a juried design competition for Apollo 11 50th
Anniversary Commemorative Coin.

I ask that the

Mint senior counsel assigned to the CCAC, Greg
Weinman, to provide the background and the process
for selecting members of this committee to
comprise the jury for the design competition.
Greg?
MR. WEINMAN:

I see I have a new microphone

that was here earlier.
to be -MS. LANNIN:

Here.

And this one doesn't seem

MR. WEINMAN:

-- functioning.

This one's better.

Okay.

And I apologize.

My computer's not coming up but nonetheless, we'll
do this without a computer.
As -- this is the third coin program recently
that requires a jury to evaluate designs from an
outside competition, the first being the World War
I Commemorative Coin program, the second being the
Breast Cancer Awareness Commemorative Coin program
and now the 2019 Apollo 11 50th Anniversary
Commemorative Coin program.
In the first two, the legislation specified
how the jury was to be selected with three members
of the CCAC and three members of the Commission of
Fine Arts elected to serve in the jury.

The Mint

had more latitude with this current legislation.
But, in fact, the model that we have been using in
the past as a service actually fairly well.

And

so, the Mint made the decision and the decision
that I'll -- to the deputy secretary to follow
essentially the same model with three members from
the CCAC and three members from Commission of Fine

Arts.
Within the CCAC, we followed the same protocol
we did before which is that all members of the
CCAC were pooled to determine who had an interest
in serving on this particular panel.

And there

were a variety of members who expressed interest.
And then the numbers were polled as to who they
would prefer to see on the jury.
Without going into great detail, there was two
members that enjoyed strong support and that would
be Erik Jansen and Tom Uram.

There were two

additional members who tied for that spot and it
is my understanding that, in fact, the two
members, Mary Lannin and Jeanne Stevens-Sollman
that Mary has graciously decided that as much as
she has served on previous panels that this would
be an opportunity that would be appropriate for
Jeanne.
And so, our pre-work, if you will, is that
Erik, Jeanne and Tom Uram would be the three most
appropriate to serve on the jury.

Therefore, at

this point, I'll turn the (indiscernible) over to

the chair who should entertain a motion to
officially select Erik Jansen, Jeanne StevensSollman and Tom Uram to serve on the upcoming
Apollo 11 50th Anniversary Commemorative Coin
program competition jury.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

And I just have to

repeat exactly what Greg just said.

I'd like to

entertain a motion to formally select Erik Jansen,
Tom Uram and Jeanne Stevens-Sollman as the three
members from the CCAC to serve on the Apollo 11
50th Anniversary Commemorative Coin program expert
jury.
Is there a motion?
MR. HOGE:
MS. LANNIN:

So moved.
Is there a second?

Is there any

discussion?
Okay.

Hearing none, I will call the question.

All those in favor, say Aye.
ALL:

Aye.

MS. LANNIN:

Opposed?

Motion is agreed to.
Okay.

We are turning to Megan Sullivan.

And

she is going to present the portfolio of the
reverse designs for the Apollo 11 50th Anniversary
Commemorative Coin program.
MS. SULLIVAN:

Thank you, Mary.

Is this microphone working?
MS. LANNIN:
(indiscernible).
MS. SULLIVAN:

It doesn't appear
This one is working.
Public Law 114-282 requires the

secretary of the Treasury to mint and issue $5
gold coins, $1 silver coins, half-dollar clad
coins and five-ounce $1 silver proof coins in
recognition of the 50th anniversary of the first
man landing on the moon.
The Act also requires the design on the common
reverse of the coins be a representation of a
close-up of the famous Buzz Aldrin on the moon
photograph taken July 20th, 1969 that shows just
the visor and part of the helmet of Astronaut Buzz
Aldrin as seen up on the screen.
The reflection in Buzz Aldrin's helmet
includes Astronaut Neil Armstrong, a solar wind
collector, the United States flag and the lunar

lander.

The Act further requires that all four

coins be curved similar to the 2014 National
Baseball Hall of Fame 75th Anniversary
Commemorative Coins so that the reverse of the
coins are convex to more closely resemble the
visor of the astronaut's helmet.
There are three design series being shown
today each depicting four potential variations
based on the required denominations.

Other

required inscriptions include "United States of
America" and "E Pluribus Unum".
Please note that weight and fineness is not a
required inscription for the five-ounce silver
proof coin.

If the Mint does decide to include it

and placement on the edge is not an option, the
candidates' designs show its recommended location.
Per the legislation, the design of the obverse
of these coins will be determined by a jury public
competition.

The competition application period

is currently open until June 29th, 2017.
Our liaison for the development of the reverse
design is the administrator of NASA or designee.

We've been working with Bob Jenkins, NASA's acting
associate administrator for communications, as
well as others during our design development.
The NASA representatives prefer the placement
of the inscriptions "United States of America" and
"E Pluribus Unum" as shown in Series 3 -- I'm
sorry.
They prefer Series 3 because of the placement
of the inscriptions.

The CFA asked that we ensure

that we consult with NASA and the original
photograph to be sure that the perspective is in
context.

For example, we were asked to

specifically check the leg of the lunar lander.
They also suggested that the Mint spell out the
denominations of -- across all four plains.
So taking a look at the designs, here are the
deigns in Series 1.
(Pause)
MS. SULLIVAN:

And Series 2.

(Pause)
MS. SULLIVAN:
(Pause)

And Series 3.

MS. SULLIVAN:

And Series 3, again, is the

preference of the NASA liaison as well as the
recommended designs by the CFA.
I believe we have with us three
representatives from NASA.

Bert Ulrich, the

multi-media liaison; Bill Berry, the chief
historian; and Rebecca Levy, acting associate
administrator for legislative and
intergovernmental affairs.
Are you all with us on the phone?
MR. ULRICH:

Yep.

Well, Rebecca is going to

be joining us.
MS. SULLIVAN:
MR. ULRICH:
MS. SULLIVAN:
here.

Okay.
But Bill and I are.
Well, great.

Glad to have you

And I'm sure that if the committee members

have any questions for you, they will be sure and
ask.
MR. ULRICH:
MS. SULLIVAN:

Good.
And, Madam Chair, that is the

end of our discussion.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you so much, Megan.

This is a really great opportunity to ask
technical questions especially since they're all
curved.

Does anyone have any questions?

Ron, are

you just sort of quaking over there -MR. HARRIGAL:

How do you do a five-ounce

silver?
MR. ULRICH:

We are definitely shaking in our

boots but we're doing okay.
MS. LANNIN:

Shaking in your boots.

Okay.

Erik?
MR. JANSEN:

Ron, I think the legislation

calls for the design to go over the edge.
MR. HARRIGAL:

That was the sense of Congress

which we're looking at that right now.
MR. JANSEN:

Sense of Congress.

(indiscernible) with that.
And the other question is the -- on the
five-ouncer, it has silver .9995 five-ounce.

That

is optional?
MS. SULLIVAN:
legislation.

It is not required by the

So if the Mint does determine that

we will place it if it is placed on the face, that

will be a location -- or a proposed location.
MR. JANSEN:

Does anybody on the committee

have a sense of the collecting audience whether
that's important to them?
MR. URAM:

I don't 'cause I --

I don't either.

And I think, if

anything, I'd rather see it on the far side of one
side or the other versus in the glass if we were
going to do it.

But, yeah, I don't think it's

even necessary.
MR. TUCKER:

I would respond to that, Erik,

that question.

I think -- I imagine this would

primarily be a numismatic product rather than a
bullion product.

And for that reason, I think

putting it on the edge would be sufficient.
MR. JANSEN:
MR. URAM:

I don't think edge is available.
Well, not edge but how about the

side?
MR. TUCKER:

If possible.

MR. JANSEN:

You mean, more towards the

perimeter than -MR. URAM:

Exactly.

Like right after

"America", somewhere very small.

MR. JANSEN:

It just struck me as between the

perspective and the destruction of the kind of sky
negative space kind of -- it just felt really kind
of counterproductive to the design.
MS. LANNIN:

And the size of it is going to

make it so like literally in your face -- in your
face.

It's going to be so big.

MR. JANSEN:

Well, all of them have the

denomination of the reference to the fineness
there in the field.
MS. LANNIN:

It's kind of in your face.

But it's got so much wordage.

Heidi?
MS. WASTWEET:

I have a question on the Series

3 in the field area of the sky, the rays.

Is that

just a product of the shading or is that intended
to be in the sculpture?
MR. EVERHART:
the artist used.

That's just the technique that
That will not appear in the

sculpture.
MS. WASTWEET:

Will that be polished?

MR. EVERHART:

I think it will, yes.

MS. WASTWEET:

Okay.

Thank you.

MS. LANNIN:
questions?

Does anybody else have any

We should just open this up for

discussion because I think we're all looking
essentially at the same art and the same set -the stakeholder prefers the third series, 1 and 2.
So, Tom.
MR. URAM:

Thanks, Madam Chairman.

I prefer everything like half dollar.
denomination.

Not the

I prefer it like that written out

in the small version versus the dollar mark or
whatever.

It doesn't seem to be as distracting as

that would be having it that way.

I prefer word

of mouth.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. URAM:

Does the legislation cover that?
I think it's optional.

MR. WEINMAN:
MS. SULLIVAN:
MS. LANNIN:

I think it's optional.
Either is acceptable.
So to be consistent then -- or,

Eric, were you -- okay.
MR. JANSEN:

And I have a different point.

I look at the series number 1, it's somewhat
challenging to compare the three visually here

As

because they're distinctly different -- they're
drawing different modes.

And so it's a little --

I think one has to translate them to a sculpt.
Now when I do that, one of the items that stands
out in the first series is the cratering and the
otherwise really definitive, almost iconic texture
in the lunar surface there which is really kind of
lost to my interpretation of the second and the
third design.
The third, in particular, looks almost just
kind of a modeled almost -MR. URAM:
MR. JANSEN:

Partial (indiscernible).
Yeah.

It's -- it really says

nothing.

And especially in the larger five-ounce

version.

I think you get so much more space that

if we were to go with 2 or 3, I might be prone to
introducing a motion to add the texture of the
surface -- here I say cratering -- of the surface
in 1 to make the image just a little bit more
iconic.
MS. LANNIN:

Since we have the liaisons on the

phone, can they answer the question about

texturing exactly where the lunar lander landed?
How cratered was it versus the dust in that famous
photograph of the bootprint?
MS. SULLIVAN:

Can we pull up the photograph

again?
MR. JANSEN:

Well, I think the legislation

calls for an interpretation -MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. JANSEN:

-- of that image, right?

So

we're not so sure we're responsible to do exactly
what we see.

I mean, we moved the flag and, in

fact, removed, I think, the scientific instrument
in the third series which I think is a good thing.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:

Yes.
I think the flag is a big piece

of this message.
MR. BARRY:

Sorry.

Bill Barry of NASA.

I would agree that the texturing on the first
series is sort of more moon-like and I think
people recognize it more easily.

I'm not -- to

me, it's not an exact depiction of what was in the
picture but then again, we're not bounded by that

either.

So it would be nice to have -- whatever

design they pick to have it look more moon-like.
But again, it's -- each of them is a little bit
different and done -- the artists have done
different things.

But (indiscernible) the

appearance is different.
MS. LANNIN:

I think they all work.

Thank you.

Dennis?
MR. TUCKER:

Could the texture be different

for different coins?

Because the gold piece will

be a little less than 22 millimeters and the lunar
pop marks might not really even be distinct at
that size whereas, maybe for the larger silver
piece it could be given a bit more detail.

I

don't know if that's a possibility.
MR. HARRIGAL:

Yeah.

When you look at a

series like this and think about our quarter
series -- we do a five-ounce three-inch version.
That has exactly the same detail as the quarter
except when you reduce it to that size, you lose a
lot of the detail.
same.

And this series would be the

We wouldn't be looking at a different

texturing or scale it a little differently.

They

would all have the same artwork.
MS. LANNIN:

Erik?

MR. JANSEN:

Two other thoughts.

One is the

significant difference in the third series versus
the top two.

The top two carries forth in the

foreground the relatively high important
instrumentation that was on the moon with the flag
in the foreground and the third one moves the flag
up.

I like the flag moved forward.

I think it

carries the intention of the entire program a
little bit better.
One thing that troubles me a little bit about
design number 3, especially so when you go to the
silver dollar and the five-ounce large silver,
number 3 almost appears cartoon-like in its lack
of precision which probably won't matter in the
smaller diameters.

But when you get to the larger

diameter, I think it will -- dare I say cheapen
the perception of how precise and technically
rooted the whole program was.

And in that sense,

I like the finer line art of the first one and,

yet to a lesser agree, the second one.
So, again, I talked about the texturing on the
surface.

Now I'm talking about the precision,

that is, quite frankly, the complexity of the
(indiscernible) in the sense that this is a
finally articulated success story and not a
cartoon.
MS. WASTWEET:

I'll comment on that, if that's

all right.
MR. BARRY:

Bill Barry here from NASA again.

One thing I'll point out is that the artist on the
first series took the liberty of rotating the
module (indiscernible) so you could see the more
sort of iconic front face of it.

And the other

two designs both show the module as is in the
picture, a back view of it.

So you don't see the

(indiscernible).
But I still want to go back (indiscernible).
The first two are more correct but -- or, I'm
sorry -- the second and third are more correct but
the first one, I think, depicts (indiscernible)
maybe even rotate that art, too, (indiscernible).

MS. LANNIN:

Heidi, you wanted to add

something?
MS. WASTWEET:

I wanted to jump off of what

Erik's comments were.

I like in the Series 3, I

like the simplification of the astronaut's suit
but I agree it could use a little more detail in
that especially since we're looking at a larger
diameter.
And then if we could go to the clad picture on
the board.

I do strongly prefer the way this has

the lettering for "1/2 Dollar".

It really works

with the composition artistically instead of
interrupting the composition the way the others
do.

I like to see them all this way so we have

"one" spelled out and "five" spelled out.

I don't

have a strong preference for that.
Like, Erik, I love the way the flag is bigger
and moved forward.
The surface of all three of these are not
really correct.

And I would just leave that to

the artist to interpret themselves and have a
little more accurate ground texture.

MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

Jeanne, do you have any comments?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Well, I believe number 3

is the one that we need to choose whether we agree
on how the dollar is indicated, half-dollar,
dollar, five dollars.
to see it written out.

I think that I would like
I think it makes it nicer.

And as far as the actual object, the
moon-landing device, I don't know how much detail
we should ask for because it's already tiny.

And

if you put more detail in it, it's going to not be
there by the time it's reduced.

So I agree with

Heidi that it'll look differently in the
five-ounce silver.

But if we design for the

five-ounce silver and then it's reduced, perhaps
we'll have the correct imagery.
So my only suggestion is that we write out the
dollar signs.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Jeanne.

Kareem, do you have any comments?
MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:

I was trying to figure out

how they determined the sky in the background.

The group in the middle looked -- it looked like
space and then at the top, it looks like it's on
earth and it's a regular sky.

And then the third

group is kind of like in the middle, you know, the
clad group.

So I think they should determine what

they want to do with that.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:
that I notice.

But that's the only thing

And I agree that the spelling out

the denomination amount it works better than -MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. HOGE:

-- the numbers.
Thank you.
Thank you.

Robert?
I agree with my colleague's

comments.

I do like the look of the sky in the

Series 2.

I wonder if that was the polished

(indiscernible) proof surface or the vacant sky
that they use (indiscernible).

And I think that

that would be attractive if we sell that on the
current series of (indiscernible).

MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:

(indiscernible) series of

(indiscernible) vertical lines.
MR. EVERHART:
MS. LANNIN:

(indiscernible) that, please?
Yes.

MR. EVERHART:

Even though the sky is colored

in in the second one, it's not going to look any
different when it's in a coin form than is in the
other two.
MR. HOGE:

Oh, okay.

MR. EVERHART:

All right.

(indiscernible) of value which

will not appear when it's in the coin form.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Don.

Herman, do you have anything -- I'm sorry,
Heidi.

I didn't see you.

MS. WASTWEET:

I just noticed something.

the photograph, there's a star in the sky.

In

Is

that earth in the photograph?
MR. VASQUEZ:
MS. WASTWEET:

It is earth.
It is earth.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
the helmet.

It's a reflection off

MR. VASQUEZ:

A small reflection in the upper

portion of the helmet.
MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. VASQUEZ:

Yes.

That's a reflection of earth?
We did include that in some of

our original designs but it was one of those
things that was likely not to coin well due to
the -- because of the small size (indiscernible).
MS. WASTWEET:

Because it's in a polished

area?
MR. VASQUEZ:

That is correct.

We were afraid

it would be polished out or seen as a die area.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. URAM:

Oh.

It's like a mistake.

MR. VASQUEZ:

That's completely okay, though.

Polished skies and unpolished.

You get a coin

with earth and without earth.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. VIOLA:
comments.

Herman, do you have any comments?
(indiscernible) with colleagues'

And I like Series 3 the best of all.

MS. LANNIN:

Dennis?

MR. TUCKER:
clarification.

I guess I have a question for
Is it or is it not possible to

letter the edge of the planchet?

Could that be

done on the planchet before whatever process?
MR. HARRIGAL:

We have the process.

We're

going to use the same equipment we use for our
five-ounce ATBs.

And so, yes, it is possible to

letter the edge.

We can do -- we call that the

split collar arrangement or we can use a fixed
collar and put reeds on it like we do with a
normal coin.
MR. TUCKER:

Okay.

Good to know.

Thanks.

MS. LANNIN:

Any more questions that we can

ask while all the liaisons from NASA are still
with us?
Jeanne, do you have any comments?

Any

additional?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

I do --

(indiscernible) sharpening up, I

think, the figure.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Okay.

I think it's a

very exciting -- I think this is a very exciting

coin.

And I like the coins -- I like the fact

that (indiscernible) through the helmet, right?
It's through?

We're not --

MR. HARRIGAL:

It's a reflection.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

It's a reflection.

okay, I have to ask Ron then.

So,

Is this the part

that's going to be convex?
MR. HARRIGAL:
the coin, yes.

Yes.

That's the convex side of

Not the concave.

The concave side

is -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. HARRIGAL:

-- the one for competition.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. HARRIGAL:

-- the competition.

Yeah.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

Is the --

Thank you.

Jeanne, you wanted to make a

motion about the -- whether the dollars were
spelled out or as letters.

So would you like to

make that motion?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Yes.

I would like to

make a motion that we spell the denominations out.
MS. LANNIN:

Do I --

MR. URAM:

Second.

MS. LANNIN:

Tom seconded it.

Okay.

All in

favor of spelling out -MR. JANSEN:

Quick question.

MS. LANNIN:

I'm sorry.

MR. JANSEN:

So the conventional silver dollar

Okay.

in a conventional eagle blank, I suppose, is the
same (indiscernible) as an eagle?
MR. HARRIGAL:
MR. JANSEN:

Commemorative, though.
Okay.

So the commemorative

silver blank and the five-ounce are both monetized
as one dollar.

So they'll both carry the same

"one dollar" and the five-ounce (indiscernible)
.999 goes away in this motion.

Is that the que --

that's my question.
MR. HARRIGAL:

I believe the five-ounce is --

it's in the preamble here.

I think Megan said

that was optional.
MS. SULLIVAN:
inscription.

It is.

It is not a required

The Mint is still determining

whether or not we should include it.
MR. JANSEN:

Okay.

'Cause that's going to

matter in this motion, I think, 'cause it's going
to even clutter this -- the five-ounce even
further if we're spelling out "one dollar" there.
MS. LANNIN:

Maybe we should just --

MR. JANSEN:

You follow my point of

clarification.
MS. LANNIN:

Yeah, I do.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Can I amend that motion

before you -MS. LANNIN:

Sure.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
the denomination.

I move that we spell out

And with respect that that --

the AG .9999 would be put on the side for a
limited -MS. LANNIN:

And what about the five-ounce

part of that?
MR. JANSEN:

Could it be placed within --

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

On the side.

That whole

thing be put on the side.
MS. LANNIN:

The whole thing we're seeing up

there now, you would like -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I would like up on the

side.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Because I think it's

important to indicate what that is, that, you
know, it is a five-ounce silver piece.

And I

think for collectors as well as anybody who's
joined in (indiscernible) collection box will want
to know what that is instead of somebody coming
along and not being able to identify it.
So it's important, I think, for this piece to
have that information.

But I don't think it

should be on the face.

It should be on the side.

MS. LANNIN:
second that?

Okay.

Anyone would like to

Tom will second a second time.

All right.

Any further discussion about that

or debate?
Okay.
ALL:

All those in favor say Aye.
Aye.

MS. LANNIN:

Those opposed?

The motion passes unanimously.
MR. URAM:
thing?

Madam Chair, can I just say one

I just wanted to thank my colleagues for

voting for me in support of being part of the
committee.

I really appreciate it.

MS. LANNIN:

You're welcome.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:

Thank you.

Congratulations to the -Similarly, thank you very much.

Thank you very much for your vote of confidence.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

I think we -- Greg just raised a good point.
We should make a motion to all accept Series 3.
Would anybody like to second, though?
MR. JANSEN:

Second.

MS. LANNIN:

Eric.

All in favor of selecting Series 3.
ALL:

Aye.

MS. LANNIN:

Those opposed?

Series 3 -- can we turn in our ballots,
please?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
MR. WEINMAN:
ballot.

Yeah.

(indiscernible).
You don't need the

You do --

MS. LANNIN:

I just want to know

(indiscernible) representative.

Okay.

So the -- Megan, we are going to read

about the Filipino veterans and World War II
Congressional Gold Act, correct?
MS. SULLIVAN:
MS. LANNIN:

That is correct.
All right.

MS. SULLIVAN:

Thank you.

As we all get ourselves

situated -MR. BARRY:

Are you finished with NASA?

MS. LANNIN:

Yes, we are.

And thank you so

very much.
MR. BARRY:

Thank you.

We are very excited

about the form -MS. LANNIN:

I'm very excited about it, too.

Thank you.
MR. BARRY:

Thank you.

MR. WEINMAN:
MS. LANNIN:
MS. SULLIVAN:

Thank you.
Okay.

Thanks.

In accordance with Public Law

114-265, the Filipino Veterans of World War II
Congressional Gold Medal Act awards a
congressional gold medal collectively to the
Filipino veterans of World War II in recognition

of their outstanding wartime accomplishments and
service to the United States during World War II.
During the Philippine campaigns from July 1941
to December 1946, over 260,000 Filipino,
Filipino/Americans and Americans served.

These

efforts resulted in a heavy loss of life of
military personnel with an estimated 57,000
deaths.

Because Filipinos who served in the

Commonwealth army of the Philippines were
originally considered a part of the allied
struggle, the military order issued by President
Roosevelt on July 26, 1941 stated that Filipinos
who served in the Commonwealth army of the
Philippines were entitled to full veterans
benefits.

The guarantee to pay back the service

of Filipinos through veterans benefits was
reversed by the Rescission Act of 1946 which
concluded that the wartime service of the
Commonwealth army of the Philippines and the new
Philippine scouts was not considered active and
therefore did not qualify for benefits.
The loyal and valiant Filipino veterans of

World War II fought, suffered, and, in many
instances, died in the same manner and under the
same commander as other members of the U.S. Armed
Forces during World War II.

Filipinos who fought

in the Philippines were not only defending or
fighting for the Philippines but also defending
and ultimately liberating sovereign territory held
by the U.S. government.
Designs were developed in consultation with
our liaison, Major General Tony Taguba who is the
chairman of the Filipino Veterans Recognition and
Education project.

In order to depict the breadth

of service completed by the Filipino veterans who
served in various units of the USAFFV, the liaison
recommended that the designs include text
references to the five locations of key military
campaigns:

the Philippine Islands, the fall of

Bataan and Corregidor, Leyte, Luzon and southern
Philippines.
Additionally, the liaison noted that the use
of the World War II era Filipino and American
flags would also be an inclusive way to represent

the units.
Artists were asked to consider "Act of
Congress 2016" and the "Filipino veterans of World
II" as potential inscriptions.

Additional

inscriptions recommended further use by the
liaison include:

"1941 The Year of Mobilization

of Filipino Veterans of U.S. Armed Forces", "1945
The Year of the Liberation of the Philippines",
"1946 The Year of the Rescission Act", "Duty to
Country", "United States Army Forces in the Far
East", "Heroic Philippine Veterans Who Sacrificed
So Much" which is a quote from President Truman
referencing the obligation of the United States to
the Filipino veterans.
We are fortunate to have Major General Tony
Taguba here with us should you have any questions.
So shown here are the liaisons' preferred
obverse and reverse which are also the
recommendations of the CFA.
We'll go through the design descriptions when
we get to them, but the obverse shows the breadth
of the service in the array of uniform's relation

to various units.

Additionally, the infantry men

(indiscernible) in the foreground conveys
vigilance and determination.
The reverse features the World War II era
Filipino and American flags, key military
campaigns, United States Armed Forces in the Far
East, 1941, 1945 and 1946, significant years
marking the Filipino veterans World War II
experience.
Major General Taguba, would you like to say a
few words?
MR. TAGUBA:

Everybody, good afternoon.

to see you, everyone.

Good

We're delighted to come

back to you and provide you some background on our
deliberation while we're able.
The preferences that's showed here today, 04,
were retail modifications.

For example, the

helmet shown by the soldier in the middle are
absent the straps.

We don't have straps.

We

don't have helmets that are strapless.
Secondly, on his helmet, it looks a little
taller than usual (indiscernible) worn that helmet

when I was in my earlier years while I was still
(indiscernible).

And his uniform that has button

all the way up does not reflect uniform worn by
World War II soldiers.

Nobody wears their uniform

buttoned all the way up.
So we provided additional photographs to April
in our group which basically shows soldiers open,
crumpled and the like to show the wear and tear of
combat in four years.
The guerrilla to the right is a replication of
a true photograph.

And he's holding a golden

knife on his left hand.

It's folded around.

I

really want to have that folded in the front
because I think it's more cluttered throughout.
They have their weapons.

The panoramic view

on the bottom was an earlier change.

It shows a

soldier with a bayonet on the kneel position along
with the jungle reflecting he's on guard on the
rear.

Everybody's looking to the left while he is

guarding the rear.

The battles of the Philippines

were technically held in -- was armed jungle, as
my father would say, so there was no clear lines

of operations as 260.

So we wanted to depict

that.
The reverse, there was some modifications.

We

added the United States Armed Forces in the Far
East which is the command that was ordered by
President Roosevelt during (indiscernible) 1941.
And it was reinstituted after the liberation when
other shell forces were placed on ground.
"To Lead the Country" was what we selected
and, of course, Megan had mentioned the four major
campaigns.

The flags replaced morals that were

there before and we wanted to reflect the two
countries that fought this war.
1941, of course, military order and
declaration of war.

1945 also depicted.

just the liberation but also victory.

That's

The

Japanese surrendered, was defeated August 1945
(indiscernible) separately in 1945.
Of course, we could not depict the Rescission
Act.

There was too much text on it.

wanted to show that.
Congress.

So we just

And, of course, act of

I had the opportunity to show most, if not
all, of the designs, the five living World War II
veterans in Seattle and their family members.

One

of them was 101 years old and the last surviving
soldier from the raid of Cabanatuan that we know
of.

Robert Lapham was his name.

(indiscernible) long time.

Though he was

It did see all, if not

some, of the (indiscernible) designs.
And then we went later, last month -- actually
this month, to three living World War II veterans
that we have remaining in the Washington, D.C.
area.

They're all disappearing.

And they showed

-- we showed them all -- I think I did anyway.
They had questions.

And when I asked them which

one do you think reflects your service without me
pointing to them, and they selected that, too.
So I gave them the benefit of the
(indiscernible) because with their mind
diminishing at this point in time, they just
wanted to see something visual.
we thought they would recommend.

And that's what
And we explained

that to the CFA last week and we're presenting to

you for your comments and (indiscernible).
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you so much.

to clarify one point?

May I ask you

Besides having the button

unbuttoned -MR. TAGUBA:

Right.

MS. LANNIN:

-- and the uniform open a little

bit more, are you saying that you prefer to have a
rumpled look -MR. TAGUBA:

Oh, no.

MS. LANNIN:

-- to where the front --

MR. TAGUBA:

We prefer number 1 to be open --

MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. TAGUBA:

-- 'cause I've not seen any

photograph that says it's buttoned all the way up.
MS. LANNIN:

Right.

Right.

MR. TAGUBA:

In fact, we don't button it all

the way up, not even today.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. TAGUBA:

So that's part of the uniform or

the uniform look.
Again, just the uniform -- the uniform -- it
looks fine.

There's no rank associated with it.

In most of the photographs that we provided to the
team here typically don't have rank.

Some of the

rank is wearing on the back of their helmet, for
example.
MS. LANNIN:

I see.

MR. TAGUBA:

The two (indiscernible).

But in

honor, we depict somebody that's a captain or
whatever (indiscernible) 'cause having gone to
this (indiscernible) soldiers (indiscernible) as
is, no rank because we do have some questions
about why did you put a cap in on there.
about a regular soldier.

What

So we decided to make it

generic.
MS. LANNIN:

And you're okay with the clothing

on the figure on the left.
MR. TAGUBA:

Figure on the left, yes, is good.

His (indiscernible) helmet is (indiscernible).
mean, some of them tilted and some of them we
decided to show his face more so than just a
helmet.

His straps are good.

The strap on the

middle soldier, it needs to be reflected
historically (indiscernible).

I

MS. LANNIN:

Do you feel that the strap should

be loose or (indiscernible)?
MR. TAGUBA:

Sure.

All of them are loose.

Most of them are loose.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. TAGUBA:

But that's now how it's supposed

to be worn.

Okay.

But, you know, soldiers are soldiers.

You know, you fight in war for four and a half
years, you're (indiscernible) strap
(indiscernible).
MS. LANNIN:

Yeah.

Okay.

MR. TAGUBA:

And we have to be -- and nobody's

going to say anything.
MS. LANNIN:

All right.

Well, thank you very

much for your clarification and thank you for
coming.
MR. TAGUBA:

Oh, thanks very much.

Welcome to

my team as well.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you both for coming.

MR. TAGUBA:

Thanks for coming by.

MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:
question.

Excuse me.

I have a

MR. TAGUBA:

Sure.

MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:
MR. TAGUBA:

In picture number 8 --

Right.

MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:

-- the individual -- number

8.
MR. TAGUBA:

Right.

MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:

I have a different one.

MR. TAGUBA:

That looks --

MS. LANNIN:

(indiscernible) 8?

MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:
sorry.

(indiscernible) 8.

I'm

(indiscernible) 8.

MS. LANNIN:

Oh.

MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:
MR. TAGUBA:
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. SULLIVAN:
MS. LANNIN:

5.

Oh.

5.

I'm sorry.

It's 5?
Obverse 5.
Obverse 5.
Obverse 5.

MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:
MR. TAGUBA:

5.

Yeah.

The gentleman -So we had a big discussion

as well.
MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:
is it (indiscernible)?

The gentleman on the right,

MR. TAGUBA:

Could be.

But we wanted to

depict more of someone -MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:
MR. TAGUBA:

In a straw hat.

-- and we wanted the straw hat.

So -MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:
MR. TAGUBA:

Oh.

-- it looks like a gangster

(indiscernible) with a bandana (indiscernible).
MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:

The Muslim Filipinos in the

south are dressed like that.
MR. TAGUBA:

They have that, yes.

MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:

Yes.

So I was just curious

about that.
MR. TAGUBA:

That's fine.

The majority of the

battles were fought in the Luzon (indiscernible).
And there were some guerrillas actually that were
first organized in (indiscernible).

But the major

campaign -- but we had to include them in
(indiscernible) because there's a guerrilla
warfare going on down there (indiscernible).
MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:
MR. TAGUBA:

Thanks very much.

So we took that into

consideration.
MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

Do we have any other questions

for the liaison?
Okay.

Dennis, I'd like to begin with you.

MS. TUCKER:
MS. SULLIVAN:

Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mary, would you like me to go

through the design descriptions?
MS. LANNIN:
okay.

Oh, I'm sorry.

I was just --

Yeah, no problem.

MS. SULLIVAN:

Okay.

We'll start with the obverse designs.
Obverse 1 features a Filipino soldier saluting
which reflects pride in himself, his unit and his
country.

The background is (indiscernible) palm

frond represent the lush tropical environment of
the Philippines.
Obverse 2 portrays a Filipino soldier on the
left and on the right, a guerrilla Filipino
fighter.
Obverse 3 shows a Filipino soldier emerging
out of the jungle to defend against the Japanese

invasion of 1941.
Obverse 4, again, both the liaison and the
CFA's recommendation, depicts the range and
breadth of Filipino veterans involved then in
World War II.

Featured are a Filipino scout, a

Filipino infantry regiment officer and a guerrilla
soldier.

In the foreground is an infantry man on

guard displaying fierce determination.
And again, we did discuss the addition of the
strap.

That is something that we noted and will

be changed if this design is moved forward.
Obverse 5 is a variation on the previous
obverse.
Obverse 6 showcases the profile of the
Filipino soldier set back into the face of the
medal.

His stoic brave countenance reveals his

willingness to do whatever is asked of him in the
name of liberty.
Obverse 7 portrays a brave Filipino soldier
calling his comrades to battle.
Obverse 8 showcases a Filipino soldier who
fought with the U.S. Armed Forces against the

Japanese.

The broken barbed wire symbolizes

liberation, freedom and victory.
Obverse 9 portrays a silhouette of marching
soldiers above the three stars and sun of the
Filipino flag.

The laurel and oak leaves

symbolize bravery and solidarity and honors the
dignity and sacrifice of the Filipino veterans of
World War II.
Additionally, an excerpt is featured from
President Truman's comments upon signing the
Rescission Act of 1946.

"The passage of this

legislation does not release the U.S. from its
moral obligation to provide for the heroic
Philippine veterans who sacrificed so much for the
common cause during the war.

They fought as

American nationals under the American flag and
under the direction of our military leaders.

I

consider it a moral obligation of the U.S. to look
after the welfare of the Philippine army
veterans."
Obverse 10 features many of the elements in
obverse 9 but also has a soldier in a dress

uniform saluting as a gesture of respect for the
honor, dignity and sacrifice of the Filipino
veterans of World War II.
Obverses 11 and 11A depict two uniformed
soldiers and a guerrilla fighter.

Obverse 11

features the Filipino and American flags in the
background while 11A has the additional
inscription of "Victory".

Both designs feature

the inscriptions of "Honor, Sacrifice and Valor"
along the border.
Obverse 12 depicts four Filipino soldiers, two
uniformed soldiers and two guerrilla fighters
symbolizing the four key campaigns waged during
World War II in the Philippines.

They are set

against the backdrop of the eight-rayed sun of the
Filipino flag.

Around the top border of the

design are inscriptions of "Honor, Sacrifice and
Valor" while along the bottom of the design is the
inscription of "Victory".
Obverse 13 features a Filipino soldier with a
rifle.
Obverse 15 depicts components of the Filipino

and American flags with the emphasis on the sun
and stars.
Obverse 16, 16A and 16B convey the heroic
sacrifice of those involved in the Bataan death
march and the courage of the guerrillas in the
raid of -MR. TAGUBA:
MS. SULLIVAN:
been practicing.

Cabanatuan.
-- Cabanatuan -- sorry.

I've

I still get it wrong -- in which

the guerrilla forces liberated POWs and civilians.
The battle cross represents fallen soldiers.

Both

the American and Filipino flags are featured in
the background.
Obverse 16 shows a soldier assisting another
soldier behind the battle cross while 16A and 16B
show only footprints of soldiers.
And moving on to the reverses:
Reverse 1 features both the American and
Filipino World War II era flags.

"Unites States

Army Forces in the Far East" is inscribed along
the top border of the design while "Duty to
Country" and the five locations of the key

campaigns of Bataan and Corregidor, Luzon, Leyte
and southern Philippines are displayed centrally.
Inscribed upon a scroll between the flags are the
significant years of 1941, 1945 and 1946.

And

again, these are the preferences of the liaison
and of the CFA.
Reverse number 2 features a laurel reef
representing the final victory over the Japanese
and three stars representing the three main island
groups of the Philippines.

Centrally inscribed

are "Duty, Loyalty and Valor".
Reverse 3 focuses on defining attributes of
the Filipino veterans with the inscription of
"Valor, Loyalty and Sacrifice" set against the
background of the stylized palm frond, a symbol of
their ultimate victory.
Reverses 5 and 5A show an eternal flame, a
symbol of honor and remembrance to commemorate
every Filipino veteran who fought and sacrificed
in World War II.

The flame is centered within the

sun from the Filipino flag and features the
inscription "Much is Owed to Filipino Veterans for

Their Sacrifice".
Reverse 5A offers an alternate version of the
eternal flame with the inscription "Remembering
Those Filipinos Who Fought and Sacrificed".
Reverse 6 features a fist as a symbolic call
to action to defend the Philippines during World
War II and to resist the Japanese occupation and
the inscriptions of "Duty, Loyalty and Victory".
Reverse 7 pays homage to the non-uniformed
Filipino veterans who fought.

The background

features of the American and Filipino flags and
the inscriptions "Duty, Loyalty and Victory".
Reverses 8 and 9 feature a soldier of the
World War II era and in a leap of time, the same
individual imagined as a veteran today.

This

soldier, despite the great losses suffered in
battle and the injustices of the Rescission Acts
of 1946 still salutes and honors both his service
to the Commonwealth of the Philippines and the
United States.
Reverses 10 and 10A focus on the hand of a
Filipino veteran with his dog tag slipping out of

his hand symbolizing the loss of the Filipino
veterans benefits by the Rescission Acts of 1946.
Reverse 11 portrays the triumphant victory of
the Filipino veterans of World War II over
imperial Japanese forces represented by
inang-bayan which translates to "Motherland".
This figure is one from folklore who, in the
modern day is often featured during celebrations
of Filipino independence.
She is releasing a dove which symbolized
liberation while the broken rope tied to her wrist
represents freedom.

The Sheehan (ph) bolo

signifies the end of war.
Reverses 12 and 12A feature many of the same
divine elements from reverse 11.

12 and 12A.

Reverse 13 and 13A feature a Filipino soldier
standing at attention and saluting.

The sun from

the Filipino flag represents unity, freedom and
democracy.

The inscribed names of the five

locations of the key military campaigns radiate
out between the sun's rays.

The design is

encircled by 48 stars, the number of stars on the

American flag during World War II.
Reverse 13 also features a background of
tropical flora.
So we have 13 and 13A.
Reverse 14 features a Filipino soldier with a
bolo knife and a rifle.
Reverse 15 depicts a Filipino soldier waving
the Filipino flag in a show of pride and
resistance.
Reverse 16 portrays a Filipino soldier using
his bolo knife while holding the Filipino flag in
his other hand.
Reverse 17 features a Filipino soldier
equipped with a helmet, munition spelt and
grenades.

He fights against invading Japanese.

Reverse 18 depicts an infantry rifleman framed
by the flags of the United States and Philippines.
Reverses 19 and 19A feature the President
Truman quote with the inscribed names of the five
locations of the key campaigns around the border.
19A also has the inscription of "United States
Army Forces in the Far East" and a weight pattern

at the bottom signifying the war in the Pacific
theater.
And that is the last reverse, Madam Chair.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

Sorry for jumping

ahead of you but I'm still going to ask Dennis to
speak first if he wouldn't mind.
MR. TUCKER:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

General, on behalf of the CCAC, I'd like to
thank you for your military service.

Also, thank

you for the time and energy that you've put into
this particular program.
MR. TAGUBA:

Thank you.

MR. TUCKER:

Thank you also to your esteemed

colleagues.
And thank you to every Filipino and FilipinoAmerican who fought in World War II.
I showed these designs to my mother-in-law
whose letter I read into the record last meeting.
Her father was in the medical corps during the
war.

And these are some of her comments.

I think

these are relevant to this program in particular
but also might be relevant to other military

themes that we look at in the future.
She asked that the words "World War II" be
spelled out instead of abbreviated as "WWII".

She

says that this will indicate that the world was at
war not merely a few countries and not only a
continent.
And as she was going through the designs, she
kind of grouped them into designs that focus on a
salute and designs that focus on guns which is
oversimplified but those are two general themes
that stood out for her.

And she preferred those

that showed the salute.

And her words were "The

salute is a gesture of respect and honor
understood across the globe.

It is done from the

youth, cub scouts, boy scouts on the line up to
cadets to the military from all fields of service
and to the very oldest of veterans whether at war
or peace."
There are many types of guns but there is only
one standard official salute which unites all
veterans at war or at peace regardless of age,
rank, field of service and someone of combat or

battleground, in active duty or retired.

The

military community of families of the veterans,
the widows, orphans and all others, and the public
in general, can easily recognize a salute designed
in the medal compared to identifying the rifle or
giving the right name for a gun where there are
different designs and varied features and
technicalities”.

She also pointed out that not

necessarily every soldier or officer would have
carried a rifle.

She mentions the logistics

division, finance management, medical corps.
So those are just some thoughts that she
shared with me as she was reviewing these designs.
My personal preference is for the obverse -for the portfolio of obverses is actually obverse
1.

In my opinion, this is -- it's a dramatic

angle of vision, a bold design.
universally recognized salute.

It has the
And it has the

legend "Duty to Country" which speaks to the
Filipinos' calling in 1941.

It's not violent or

aggressive but it's strong and brave.

That's just

my personal preference from this portfolio.

Regarding sketch 4, which is the preferred
choice of you, our stakeholders, I like the fact
that it represents well that breadth of Filipino
service with the scouts, the infantry, the
guerrillas.
Just a couple points.

I'm wondering, Don and

Ron -- actually Don, if the sculpting of that kind
of cloudy soft edge bleeding between the lower
scene and the upper trio of figures, is that
something that would be a complicated sculpt?
MR. EVERHART:
MR. TUCKER:

No, not at all.

We'll just --

Okay.

MR. EVERHART:

-- feather out -- fade out the

relief so that it's -- it looks like, you know,
fog or it differentiates between the two entities
of the soldier on the beach and then the three
soldiers up above.
MR. TUCKER:

Okay.

MS. SULLIVAN:
interrupt you.

It's not a problem at all.
And --

Mr. Tucker, I'm sorry to

I just wanted to be sure, since we

wer4e on this design, to add that both our liaison
as well as the Commission of Fine Arts suggested

making the central figure a three-quarter profile
in keeping with the outermost figures rather than
that hard traditional profile that you see now.
MR. TUCKER:

Good to know.

Thank you.

The arm of the officer in the middle, to me,
it looks oddly angled.

It looks as if his right

arm is kind of going up and would not connect with
his shoulder.

I just mention that for the record.

MR. EVERHART:

It's a good observation.

I

never even noticed it.
MR. TUCKER:

Once you see it, you can’t unsee

it.
MR. EVERHART:

Yeah.

You do want to tilt the

wrist down -MR. TUCKER:

Once you see it, you can’t unsee

it.
MR. EVERHART:
MR. TUCKER:

Okay.

Yeah.

But I think that would be an easy

fix.
MR. EVERHART:

No.

That's a (indiscernible) -

MR. TAGUBA:

It could also depict whether he's

holding it up or is at for regress.

So in this

particular case, I think they're mentioning that
he's holding it up higher than usual.

And

something, too, that might be -- I just noticed
that till now is that the barrel is a little
short.

And the hand guard might be a little

thinner than usual.

I'm not sure talking to the

artist is whether he was using the screen field
rifle or the M-1 rifle.

But the part with the

metal is that those were the soldiers from the
first and third field of regiment but did not have
screen field rifles.
MR. TUCKER:

They had M-1 rifles.

I think your expertise will

continue to be very valuable to the
(indiscernible) -MR. TAGUBA:

Well, we can't talk to them so --

it just -MR. TUCKER:

For the reverse designs, just to

give some of my thoughts here, reverses 8 and 9 -these are the designs that I recommended in our
last meeting.

They illustrate the call to duty

and answer to that call in 1941.

And implicitly

as sad as it is with knowledge, it illustrates the
failed promise of 1946.

But then it also

illustrates with the date 2016 Congress'
redemption and how ever partial that may have been
of recognizing the Filipino service.
I think these designs are well executed and
would appeal to Filipino audiences.

And

importantly, to me, these designs, 8 and 9, they
tell the story of both past and present.
story is not ending in World War II.

So the

It's not

ending in 1941 or 1945 when victory and liberation
came.

But with the older -- with the depiction of

the older soldier, we tell the story that this is
a 70-year struggle that is finally starting to
heal.
War II.

And their experience did not end with World
So those two designs stood out for me.

I value, of course, the participation and the
personal experience and preferences of our living
vets.

I mean, that's obviously very important.

My recommendation, again, just for the record,
would almost be to -- I would recommend using
reverse 9 as the obverse.

So we would show this

as the obverse.

But with the legend "Duty to

Country" replaced with the words "Filipino
Veterans of World War II".

And then for the

reverse, I use the reverse 1 as preferred by our
stakeholders.

And that way "Duty to Country is

not repeated and we get reference to the "United
States Army in the Far East" and also to the
"Filipino Veterans of World War II" spelled out as
a legend.
And finally, a technical question, and this
would be for the Mint's production, Don, is there
any way that these medals could be produced with
an antiquing or patination rather than just a flat
bronze surface.
MR. EVERHART:

I'm glad you brought that up.

I'd really like to see that on all of our medals.
I think it's part of the process that needs to be
completed to really make it -- make the medal a
complete statement.

So, yeah, I would make note

of that.
MR. TUCKER:

I think it would add a lot to the

design and then to the look and feel of the medal.

It's really a traditional approach to professional
medal craft although people today might not
recognize it as such because we're used to seeing
just a flat -MR. EVERHART:
relief.

But it also enhances the

It kind of outlines it and the

oxidization process allows them to go into areas
to received.

And then the areas that are up above

or higher like (indiscernible) so you get a lot
more definition and form than you would if it's
not the (indiscernible).
MR. TUCKER:

Madam Chair, when the time comes,

I would like either myself or someone else to make
a motion that that be recommended to the Mint.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Thank you.

Mr. Taguba, was there -MR. TAGUBA:

Sure.

MS. LANNIN:

-- anything --

MR. TAGUBA:

Just to refresh your

(indiscernible), the preferred was not the one
that -- they chose three others and had questions.
For example, how come a woman is not on the face

because we had a single Asian-American out of five
that wanted (indiscernible).

It just happens to

be called the (indiscernible), for example, who
just passed away last year.

She won silver stars

as a spy.
We had questions about Motherland which was
why is there a motherland.

You know, which

motherland are we talking about?

The Philippines

or the United States or do we have to make that
distinction.
As far as the veterans being shown there, they
have not forgotten that the war has not only
ended.

It still percolates in their minds today.

They care about the facts on the Rescission Act,
for example, because it's almost insignificant as
what they had suffered when nobody honored them in
1946.

They were basically disassociated.

In

fact, we still have about 4500 go into a veteran
store who are still appealing for their claims.
One of them is 100 years old who is still
(indiscernible).

This is his third appeal.

And

the army, bless their heart, the service that I

served in, refuse to recognize him even though he
has six documented records from the National
Archives with his name on it.

And they will not

honor him with a recognition and they denied it
for the third time.

Even though he used the same

documentation to apply for his U.S. citizenship in
1992 where his immigration and natural service
granted him U.S. citizenship.

But the army won't

recognize him.
So they have not forgotten any of that.

What

resonated with them, because they're still living
what they did, way back when -- and that's why I
(indiscernible).

This particular -- for example,

the soldier is wearing a jacket.

Philippines

don't wear -- Filipino soldiers don't wear a
jacket in the tropical area.

So it's a depiction

-- it's (indiscernible) depiction.
As far as the veteran, I want to agree with
you that they were probably depicted but they did
not select that one.

So I deferred their comments

on what their selection was and their families
were there.

And there probably were some --

probably wear their VMW American Legion hat and
whatever have you.

But I think their best memory

was how they fought and how they were treated.
Now the flags resonated with them because this
-- you saw in the six-minute video Mr. Colletta
(ph) basically said we're fighting for the United
States.
context.

So you have to put it in that particular
Also, the Philippines -- I don't know if

any photographs that I saw that a guerrilla or
soldier just waved the Filipino flag.
both flags.

They waved

And they (indiscernible) back in the

six-minute video.
But well taken.

And again, we --

Congressional gold medals, I told the public, our
group, that it is for them inasmuch as how we want
it designed because once it is designed and
minted, there's no redo.

You can't go back.

And

this is for what we think the 15,000 living World
War II veterans that we know are still alive today
and roughly 20,000 survivors who are eligible to
receive the Congressional gold medal.
MR. TUCKER:

Thank you.

So --

MR. TAGUBA:
count.

law.

They do.

We don't really count.

I don't

So --

MR. TUCKER:

I understand.

Thank you, sir.

MR. TAGUBA:

I'd like to meet your mother-in-

I'll be in Atlanta this Saturday.
MR. TUCKER:

you once.

So --

She lives in Denver.

She's met

And it's been a highlight of her

experience.
MR. TAGUBA:

All right.

MR. TUCKER:

She'd love to see you again.

MR. TAGUBA:

She's eligible for this.

didn't have her name on the registry.

We just

So we can

present her not only with a Congressional medal
but a copy of the 114-265.
MR. TUCKER:

That's wonderful.

She's very

active in that district out there so I'll make
sure that she drops you a line.
MR. TAGUBA:

All right.

Thank you.

MR. TUCKER:

I was very happy to see the

American flag and the Philippines flag on the
design that was of preference.

As I mentioned

last time, my grandfather's casket was draped with

the American flag when he died.
MR. TAGUBA:

April -- I want to commend April

and her team and also Megan, Gwen.

They put -- me

and my liaison team put a (indiscernible) making
sure that we know exactly what we're talking about
because of the guidance.
the guidance:

And I want to read you

"Use of symbols and images,

artistically beautiful and sculpturally done, text
as art".

So how do you depict 75 years of history

on something that's three and a half inches in
diameter and back really can't do it.

But, you

know, we want it to be something that would not
only resonate with the veterans but for their
children and grandchildren and publicly.
MS. LANNIN:

Dennis?

MR. TUCKER:

Madam Chair, I have one other

comment.

I wanted to point out something -- these

are great designs.
touching.

A lot of them are very

But I wanted to point that in reverse 3

"Loyalty" is spelled wrong.

Reverses 10 and 10A,

"Philippine" is spelled wrong.

And that hurts.

So I would ask our artists please, please be very

careful with that type of thing.
MS. SULLIVAN:

Actually, Mr. Tucker, we'll

take responsibility for that.

Our team reviews

these materials in new verbal times.

And

obviously, I think you know the quality of our
work.

We strive to deliver the utmost for our

liaisons.

So thank you.

Thank you.

But it

certainly -- that doesn't belong with the artists.
MR. TUCKER:

I'm in publishing.

I'm a writer.

And I understand you can look at something a
million times and miss things like that.
it's a medal, there are no redoes.

But once

So hopefully

things like that would be caught but I wanted to
mention that -MS. SULLIVAN:

Thank you.

MR. TUCKER:

-- for the record.

MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

Tom?
MR. URAM:

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

And, General, thanks to you and your team and
the due diligence that you guys did between now
and last time we saw you.

We have a precedent basically pretty much set
for these Congressional gold medals and with all
due respect for Dennis and his comments and they
were wonderful in some of the things that were
said there.

But, you know, it is, at the end of

the day, your Congressional gold medal.

We're not

designing a coin here for circulation and general
public.

So it is yours.

And so, having said that, I respect the
designs that you have chosen and the way you chose
it, more importantly because we don't get many
stakeholders to come in and tell us what they
would like depicted on the design.

And so, you've

already done that on both of them.

And I'm very

satisfied that if you're satisfied that we
continue the precedence of granting our
stakeholders, particularly in this case since so
much due diligence was done and researched and
you've made opinions about (indiscernible)
changed, I'm fine with both designs.
Thank you, Madam Chairman.
MS. LANNIN:

Thanks, Tom.

Jeanne?

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
Madam Chair.

Thank you.

And thank you, General.

Thank you,
We are very

appreciative for everything (indiscernible).
I agree with Tom and with Dennis about this
(indiscernible).

When (indiscernible) the

portfolio, you know, you want to have something
powerful and I (indiscernible) and the duty that
was performed during World War II by these
veterans.

So I send my vote to these

obverse/reverse (indiscernible).
Thank you.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

Could I ask anybody

who is on the phone to mute -- looks like I'm -could you mute your phones, please?

Could I ask

anybody who's on the phone to mute their phones
(indiscernible) clicking.
So thank you, Jeanne.

Sorry.

Herman?
MR. VIOLA:

Thank you, General.

(indiscernible) working.
Thank you, General.
comments.

I really appreciate your

I appreciate the discussion we had the

last time.

And like my colleagues, I feel you as

the stakeholders should pick what you want and
we'll try to work as best we can with you and
we'll incorporate the suggestions you make for the
design.
Thank you again.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Herman.

Erik?
MR. JANSEN:

You put so much effort into this.

And your care and concern and detail orientation
really shows and it helps us tremendously.

So

thank you.
I want to share the thoughts that I
(indiscernible) be here by looking at obverse 4
trying to make this the best it can be.

And the

one thing that concerns me, with the lower portion
of this, the soldier kind of standing guard on the
beach there, his helmet just really is begging for
some negative space around it.

When I look at

this, there are three -- my visual process

to

take this coin in flows first to the profile of
the three.

And at about the time I’m done taking

in the differences between those three, I then try
to assess and understand the image below and then
all of this -- the hand and the barrel and all of
that that's fighting me wanting to understand the
way the scout on the beach is feeling.

And I

guess I'm asking Don and the engraving team how do
we give that soldier's helmet some negative space
to give the observer the sense of solidarity and
singularity?

And he's there -- I mean, he is --

it's him versus everything around him.

And the

negative space needs to define him better.
MR. EVERHART:

Well, in the medal, I don't

think that the evidence of the negative space is
going to be it -- will not show as much as it
would on a proof.

But nevertheless, I think if we

continue the fade-out of the figure behind him to
the right of his hand around his head would
accomplish hopefully what you want it to.
MR. JANSEN:

Yeah.

issue with his wrist.

And there's the anatomical
And so maybe we solve this

without introducing a whole new forest
dysfunctional anatomy.

Just give some negative

space around that.
MR. EVERHART:

Yeah.

A lot of these problems

get solved in the sculptural phase automatically
when we get to it.
MR. JANSEN:

Thank you very much.

That would

be my primary thought.
When I look at the reverses, I certainly
appreciate the -- I'm not even quite sure what the
right word is for it -- the flags and the text.
They certainly fit in to a traditional reverse -the medal.

And I think I appreciate from the

discussions that I've heard why you like that
design.

And I'd like to honor it and vote

accordingly.
What I was going to say is a number of these
reverses really kind of conform more to a medallic
obverse.

And so that potentially might be a

message back to the artist.

In particular, I was

touched by Dennis' comments about dividing the
universe in two camps, salutes and guns.
never heard that comment before.
military oriented work.

And I've

We do a lot of

And, I mean, excuse the

heck out of me.

I never saw it that way so thank

you for that.
MR. TUCKER:

That's my mother-in-law.

MR. JANSEN:

Well, (indiscernible) to your

mother-in-law.
MR. TAGUBA:

There is a form of salute which

is the 21-gun salute -MR. JANSEN:

Yes, sir.

MR. TAGUBA:

-- as a salute with that.

Now

that's a formation of seven soldiers fighting the
three (indiscernible) -MR. JANSEN:

Right.

MR. TAGUBA:

-- and the rest of the salute.

And that's well taken.

But when I talked to some

of these veterans who have yet to be recognized,
they're very reluctant in saluting anything.
There's some deep seeded and, I say,
disappointment.

But, you know, they're not

discouraging anyone for being disenfranchised for
all of these years.
But at the same time, though, we do salute as
the former honor, respect and the like.

But at

the same time, bearing one's arm is also, as
(indiscernible) just said, the best value that you
can do defending your country.
MR. JANSEN:

Yeah.

It saddens me that there

is that residual emptiness and disloyalty.

It's

very saddening.
MR. TAGUBA:

It is.

There's a picture of

them, those who fought during the war, who have
chained themselves on the fence line of the White
House way back when.
dishonor.

Now that's a sign of

So we don't want to use that in any

publication or anything of that nature because now
it's just a protest.

And either one -- again,

it's asking the veterans which do you prefer
because we only had one choice.
MR. JANSEN:

Well, if this is consolation or

potentially even this medal or potentially even
reinvigoration to right that wrong, so be it.
MR. TAGUBA:

Yes, sir.

And, by the way, we are lacking an education
program, developing an education program that
surrounds this gold medal.

It's never been done

before.

Their first group is doing that and

nearly completed this Japanese-American
(indiscernible) soldiers.
board.

I'm still part of their

And they're nearly completing their

education program.

And they're partnered with

Smithsonian Institution and the National Museum of
the United States Army.

And we want to replicate

that because we just don't want the medal to be
shown on the third floor of the National Museum of
the American History.

We want to provide an

education program that this value on one single
gold medal and the value of life loss, the value
of determination and honor of why a single gold
medal.
And I invite you to go to the third floor of
the National Museum of American History and
Smithsonian because there's an educa -- a
digitized exhibition for the (indiscernible)
Congressional medal.
So this is how important this is for not just
for the Filipinos back home but this is U.S.
history that needs to be told over and over and

over again because a lot of folks have forgotten
it.

It took us a while to get 383 co-sponsors in

Congress just to get them to understand in 20minute time or less why we're doing this for them.
MR. JANSEN:

Right.

Well, I want to be part

of the effort to make this medal as great as it
can be to serve every purpose you have.

Thank

you, sir.
MS. LANNIN:
Heidi?

Thank you, Erik.

Heidi?

MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you.

Dennis, great comments and great catch with
the arm.

I didn't see it either.

Yet, the hand

is fine but the angle of the wrist is what's
throwing that off.

That's a good catch.

There was mention that the CFA wanted to
change the middle to the three-quarter instead of
a profile.
profile.

Artistically, actually, I like the
You're right about the helmet.

helmet is not correct.

The

It's not just the height

and the strap but also the perspective of the
helmet to -- so I would -- it would be my

recommendation to leave the profile as a variety
to the design.

And when you fix the perspective

of the helmet, it will give more harmony to all
three head coverings.
On the left side, I'd like to see a little bit
more gradual (indiscernible) than is
representative in the drawing.

And that's easily

accomplished in the sculpture.
Great comment about the lack of female
representation.
not.

I wish that was there but it's

But we can't have it all.
I just want to call out for the obverses,

kudos to the artist.

I really like design number

1 as well but I will defer to the preference.
On the reverse, again, I put a lot of weight
into the preference of design number 1.

But I'd

also like to call out design number 11 and 12 and
12A are really beautiful.

And as the general

mention, a large part of this is educating the
public.

These medals serve two purposes:

to

honor a (indiscernible) people and events; and the
second purpose is to educate the curiosity.

What

is that medal about?
object.

Look at that beautiful

I want to know more.

And in that vain, I think this design
accomplishes the education portion because this is
so beautiful.

The people who are not connected in

any way will still pick this up because they say,
wow, that's a really beautiful medal.
the face of it?

Who are these people?

What's on
I want to

know more.
Where design number 1 is very informative,
very factual, I don't -- for me -- see that it
sparks much curiosity as something that's more
visually beautiful.

Again, I put preference to --

put weight in your preference but that’s my
additional input.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Heidi.

Robert?
MR. HOGE:

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

General, again, I follow the rest of my
colleagues.

I really appreciate your input.

I

think we've had a very thorough presentation and
discussion of these materials and we're all really

thoroughly behind the program and getting
something really fine (indiscernible).
I would tend to agree with my colleagues who
like to defer to the wishes of your people and the
design selections of obverse 4 and reverse 1.

But

I was impressed also with Dennis' mother-in-law's
suggestion about the idea of the salute versus the
gun because having a gun, warfare types of things
really tends to put this into the category of so
many other military medals that we're doing which
have a lot of similarity.

You got so many

(indiscernible) medals would be (indiscernible)
things like this and other World War II
commemorations.
But even so, Dennis' suggestion of having a
salute on both sides of the piece I think might be
a little bit of overkill for that sort of thing
also.
I really like some of these designs.
they're -- many of them are powerful.

I think

But --

actually, I thought number 13A was supposed to be
a representation of Filipino women in the

military.
there.
Oh well.

It's kind of a feminine looking soldier

And like a Filipino version of the black.
Never mind.

And I agree with Heidi that the classical look
and representations of the inang-bayan?

Is that

how we pronounce -- I'll take your representation.
Very lovely pieces.

It's really a fine tune of

medals.
Thank you.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Robert.

Kareem?
MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:

Well, in general, I knew

some people that grew up with -- their dads were
in the navy and the Filipino army.

And the

stories I heard were really inspiring.

Their

courage and determination was awesome.

So I

really happy to be part of all this.
I think that any of the dictions that are
inclusive that (indiscernible) variety of support
the Filipinos devoted towards their dream, their
country, any of those will work for me.
don't need to be very specific.

So I

I just hope that

we can please the general in terms of putting it
in the right context for his nation.
So I will defer and I will give up the mic.
MR. TAGUBA:

If I could just add to your

comment, this was not just for the U.S. army per
se.

When Badaame was (indiscernible) in Bergador

and when McCarter left to go to Australia much
before De Gaulle, a lot of marines on the air
corps navy were also caught in the battle.

So

they're included on eligibility to receive the
Congressional medal under Section 3 of the law.
It did not exclude any of them.

And we did not

exclude U.S. army officers who commanded the -white officers that commanded the units like
General Harold Johnson who later became the chief
of staff of the army and manned the 57th infantry
regiment, the same regiment that my father was in
at the time of his capture, both (indiscernible)
capture.

But he endured prisoner of war status

until the end of the war -- General Johnson did.
It is a great book.
So every one who I caught in the Philippines

include civilians, you are a guerrilla.
could have your name.

If we

Like your mother-in-law.

She's going to be the recipient (indiscernible)
survivors, surviving family member, they're all
eligible to receive.
they're at.

We just need to know where

We have a registry.

And then we

purchase as many (indiscernible) replicas as we
need or we want and put the call worldwide
(indiscernible) 'cause our Philippines are also
(indiscernible) in this and those who are still
residing in the Philippines.
Thank you, (indiscernible).
MS. LANNIN:
work with.
a lot.

I can't imagine a better group to

We've had a great time.

We've learned

I would vote for what you want.

Okay.

Any other questions that anybody has?

Any comments?
Dennis?
MR. TUCKER:
out World War II?

On the obverse 4, can we spell
Do you see that as being a

problem, Don, design wise?
stakeholders?

Or to our

Is that not a --

MR. TAGUBA:

That would be great if there's

space.
MR. EVERHART:
space there.

Yeah.

There's not a lot of

We'd have to decrease the size of

the lettering.

I mean, we could do it but it is a

three-inch medal so I don't see any problem with
that.
MS. LANNIN:

So slightly smaller font --

MR. TUCKER:

To that point, though, the medal

-MR. EVERHART:
MR. TUCKER:

(indiscernible).
The medals will also be available

in the one and a half inch format.
MR. EVERHART:

Is that --

True, but when we designed, we

designed for the three-inch.
MR. TUCKER:

Right.

MS. LANNIN:

So would you like to make a

motion for that, Dennis?
MR. TUCKER:

I would like to make a motion

that we heartily recommend that we follow our
stakeholders' preferences with obverse 4, with
"World War II" spelled out and reverse 1.

MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

Would anybody like to

second?
MR. TUCKER:

And --

MS. LANNIN:

Oh, I'm sorry.

MR. TUCKER:

I'm sorry.

And also, I don't

know if this would be a second motion that we do
some sort of antiquing or patination on this
medal.
MR. HOGE:

And the other divisions with the

code and a half and everything.
MR. TUCKER:

Yes.

Thank you.

And also that

we follow our stakeholders' recommendation for
minor design modifications as noted.
MS. LANNIN:

Tom is seconding that motion.

Somewhat complicated but -MR. HOGE:
MS. LANNIN:
Okay.
ALL:

We got it all in there.
Including the patination.

All in favor of the motion?
Aye.

MS. LANNIN:

Any nos?

Motion passes

unanimously.
MR. TAGUBA:

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

We'll pass this on to our living World War II
veterans and they can walk the travel of -- I'm
sure that they'll want to (indiscernible).
Thank you.
MR. WEINMAN:

And please, please finish voting

your ballots any way for the (indiscernible)
merit.
(Pause)
MR. TAGUBA:

Happy hour?

(Pause)
MS. LANNIN:

We'd like to take a 10-minute

recess.
MR. WEINMAN:

Ten-minute recess.

(Recess from 2:28 p.m. until 2:46 p.m.)
MS. LANNIN:

Welcome back from the short

recess, everyone.
All right.

The next and very last item for

today is the Office of Strategic Services, known
as the OSS, Congressional gold medal.
April?
MS. STAFFORD:

Before I begin, Madam Chair,

reading the background to this program, if I

might, at our last CCAC meeting, I just wanted to
correct something for the record.

We were

discussing the 2018 World War I Armed Forces
silver medals.

At that meeting, I incorrectly

identified the Commission of Fine Arts preference
for the army obverse as reverse design 5.

At that

time, Mr. Jansen pointed out that he actually
thought that the CFA's preference was design 08 -sorry -- 06.

As promised, we conferred with the

CFA and indeed, Mr. Jansen, you are correct.

The

preference was -MR. JANSEN:

(indiscernible).

MS. STAFFORD:

-- to fix.

And I just wanted

to make sure that we have that in the record.

And

with that information, that was what, in fact, was
provided to the secretary and all of that.

I just

wanted to make sure you all were aware of that.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

MS. STAFFORD:
All right.

Thank you.

It is Public Law 114-269 that

authorizes the presentation of a single
Congressional gold medal to the members of the

Office of Strategic Services, known as the OSS, in
recognition of their superior service and major
contributions during World War II.
The OSS was America's first effort to
implement a system of strategic intelligence
during World War II and provided the basics for
the modern day intelligence and special operations
community.
The CIA, Navy Seals, the Army Special Forces
and the Air Force Special Operations Command can
all trace their lineage back to the OSS.

The OSS

was comprised of both military personnel and
civilians.

Women comprised more than one-third of

the OSS personnel.

Many of Americas leading

scientists and scholars served in the OSS.
The OSS organized, trained, supplied and
fought with resistance organizations throughout
Europe and Asia.

They conducted covert operations

and reconnaissance.

They pioneered new technology

including the Lambertsen Amphibious Respiratory
unit, the precursor to our current scuba
technology.

They established the modern counter-

intelligence community and provided vital
information during World War II.
The designs you'll see today were developed in
consultation with our liaison, Mr. Charles Pinck,
president of the OSS Society.

I'll ask him to

address the committee in just a moment.

And

should you have any questions, he is here with us
to answer them.
A few notes about the designs.

The liaison

requested the spearhead, a device used
historically to represent the OSS, be featured on
the medal as well as the inscription "Act of
Congress 2016".

During development, some

confusion arose regarding the years that the OSS
was in existence.
1945.

The correct dates are 1942 to

And should any design you recommend move

forward and feature this date range, that would be
corrected.
The liaison's preferred obverse design is
obverse 17.

You can see it there in the upper

left-hand corner.

For the reverse, the liaison

would like the design to feature a quote from

General William Donovan, the leader of the OSS.
Of all the reverses with this quote, 19 has been
identified by the liaison as the most compelling.
I should say that when we presented last week to
the CFA, initially, the most compelling design
from our liaison's point of view was reverse 20.
But after conversation with the CFA, 19 is now
listed there.
The liaison has a few requested modifications
to these preferences which I will outline when we
get to these designs and the presentation.

For

example, all the preferred reverses feature the
spearhead which is paired with an obverse that
includes this as well may need to be removed.

And

you can see there, at the bottom that the CFA
ultimately recommended a different obverse,
obverse 15, and they recommended reverse 19.
So now I would like to ask Mr. Pinck if he'd
like to address the committee?
MR. PINCK:

Sure.

Thank you.

Thank you, April, and thank you, everybody for
inviting me here today to speak to the citizens on

the advisory committee.
We're really thrilled to have this bill pass
and to get this coin and to get some recognition
for the OSS which, because it was a secret
organization and because it was only in existence
for three and a half years, it's never really
received recognition that it deserved.

And it

continues to have a great effect on our world
today.

So much of what the OSS did created our

modern intelligence and special operations
community.
Recognizing that OSS was a very complex
organization involved in all kinds of activities,
we also realize that it's kind of hard to
encompass that really graphically, represent
everything the OSS did on a three and a half inch
coin.

We -- the spearhead was chosen by General

Donovan as his insignia unofficially because he
really intended the OSS to be the top of the spear
hitting the first M.

And that's why we selected

these images.
So you see B-24.

They were flown by the air

arm of the OSS, 801st/49 Second Bombardment known
as the Carpetbaggers and they flew single plane
missions, low (indiscernible) at night to deliver
people like the parachutists you see parachuting
right behind them (indiscernible).
On the left, you see the member of the OSS
Maritime unit.

OSS Maritime unit was the

predecessor to today's Navy Seals.
So these folks were not only engaged in direct
action against the enemy, they were also engaged
in intelligence gathering.

And we think that

these three images -- well, more than that.

The

three components of the image and the spirit
really capture this spirit of this organization.
Which I think was best described by General
Donovan when he said that members of the OSS
performed some of the greatest acts of the war.
That's what we're trying to capture on this coin,
the daring bravery of these people.
And then we were thinking about the back of
the coin.

And we settled on this quote from

General Donovan.

When the OSS was disbanded in

September of 1945, General Donovan gave a farewell
address to OSS employees.
sentence from that address.

This was the last
And we felt it was

important to make a statement about not only what
the OSS did in World War II but what our
intelligence and special operations community
still do today which is, namely, only by decisions
and national policy based upon accurate
information do we have a chance for peace that
will endure.

And I think that's also important

because it underscores much of what the
intelligence and special operations community does
is really towards keeping peace.

And they wanted

to send a message about peace.
CFA -- we like their suggestions about the
reverse side.

The obverse 1 that they selected,

frankly, we didn't love when we first saw it.

We

kind of felt it was a little dull, for lack of a
better word and didn't really capture the spirit
of the organization.

We want an image on this

coin that's going to really grab people in and say
what's this all about.

There's two (indiscernible).
know anything about the OSS.

Few Americans

They don't

understand that our intelligence and special
operations communities have their roots in World
War II.

So we're really hoping this coin is going

to really help educate folks about OSS and what it
did.
April, if you have a minute, I wondered if I
could introduce Pat O'Donnell.
So honored to have here a member of our board,
Patrick O'Donnell.

He's an award-winning

historian and author.

He's written four books

about the OSS, interviewed, what, 600 OSS
veterans, Pat?
MR. O'DONNELL:
MR. PINCK:

(indiscernible).

Yeah.

So he's really the OSS

expert.
MR. O'DONNELL:

Thank you, Charles.

really an honor to be here.

It's

And this for us was a

really long process to get to the point of this
coin.

And, you know, as a -- I've been a full-

time historian for 18 years and written four books

on the OSS.

And nearly every time I've written a

book on the OSS, people never even understood what
the word "OSS" meant or what they represented.
And that has always been something that I've had
to convey to readers.
And it's an amazing story.

This is one of the

greatest organizations ever create by the United
States government.

It's about individuals that

were exceptional and, you know, from base cold
cloth, they created special operations and
intelligence gathering.

And the legacy that they

created is here today, the Navy Seals, the green
berets and modern intelligence as we know it.
And, you know, it's in the headlines all day long.
We really felt that the first image captures
the spirit of the OSS.

These were not people that

-- they were results driven.
did was results driven.
They were operational.

Everything that they

It was out of the box.
They were behind the lines

doing things.
We didn't really feel the second design
conveyed that at all.

In fact, it seemed a little

bit cartoonish.
curtain.

There's like the woman behind the

That didn't work.

There's the gentleman

with the army -- seal army helmet.

They had been

wearing that or the binoculars.
So there's so many things that we just sort of
did not even consider that design at all as
representative of the OSS and their extraordinary
achievements.
Thank you.

I wanted to answer any questions,

MR. PINCK:

The only other thing I wanted to

too.

mention is that it's really an honor to be here
today 'cause actually, OSS was founded 75 years
ago on June 13th.

And last Friday, we held a

ceremony up on Navy Hill which I'm sure you're
familiar with which was the original OSS
headquarters and then the CIA headquarters after
World War II.

And we recently, as a result of our

efforts, those buildings were just added to the
National Register of Historic Places.

So we have

the CIA director there, Mike Pompeo, General
Trask, the vice commander of U.S. SOCOM, and

Ambassador Smith who's the head of INR.
One of the most interesting things about OSS
is that General Donovan recruited some of our
country's greatest academics towards research on
analysis branch.
professors.

And he called them his

And he said that -- I'm trying to

remember the quote.

He said so you contributed

much of the OSS' success to what he described as
good old-fashioned intellectual sweat.

So it

really was an incredible diverse talented
organization.
So thank you.

Have any questions?

Happy to

answer them.
MS. STAFFORD:

All right.

So we'll move to

the candidate designs.
Starting with the obverses:
Obverse 1 and 2 feature the letters "OSS", a
strong shadow depicting the nature of the shadow
war and the OSS' clandestine operations during
World War II.

The OSS spearhead is -- depicted

the need for a map of Europe as seen in the
background.

Design 2 also features a B-24 Liberator plane
and a single paratrooper.
So this is design 1 and 2.
Design 3 depicts a lone paratrooper behind the
OSS spearhead.
4 depicts an OSS frogman emerging from the
surf.

He's wearing a Lambertsen Amphibious

Respiratory Unit and carrying a knife.
6 depicts three OSS offices parachuting into
occupied territory.

The design also features the

OSS spearhead.
7 depicts four figures standing in front of
the sun

a paratrooper running with a Tommy gun, a

paratrooper in the air and a man and a woman in
1940 attire.

These figures represent the variety

of individuals who served in the OSS.

On the

ground, their shadows reveal the letters OSS, an
illusion to the notion that this personnel worked
in the shadows.
Design 8 depicts a paratrooper running with a
Tommy gun, a paratrooper coming in for a landing
and silhouettes of a man and a woman in 1940's

attire.

The man and woman are rendered in

silhouette to represent the OSS agents who
operated anonymously.

The letters "OSS" are

inscribed in the center of the design.
Obverse 9 depicts a man holding a magnifying
glass leaning on a globe representing the mini OSS
offered as you worked all over the world.

The

design also features the OSS spearhead and the
inscriptions, "Courage", "Bravery", "Daring" and
"Innovative".
Obverses 10, 11 and 12 feature elements
important to the OSS.

Two shadowed figures to

evoke the clandestine mission of those behind the
enemy lines.

They glow to represent the OSS'

worldwide mission.

The compass often carries

concealed letters behind enemy lines and the OSS
spearhead.
Designs 10 and 12 also feature a paratrooper.
So this is design 10, 11 and 12.
Obverse 13 depicts a female member of the OSS
peering around the corner representing that many
OSS members operated in the shadows.

Okay.

Moving on to design 15, this is the

CFA's preference.

It features six OSS operatives

representing the wide variety of roles played by
the OSS during World War II.
Obverse 16 features two OSS frogmen with the
OSS spearhead in the background.
Obverse 17 depicts an OSS frogman carrying a
knife, a paratrooper and a B-24 Liberator airplane
representing critical roles carried out by the OSS
during World War II.

Again, this is the liaison's

preferred obverse design.

And requested

modifications from the liaison include:
There are some minor inaccuracies with the
parachute equipment.

We would want to ensure it

represented a World War II parachute;
Remove the word "The" from the inscription
"The OSS" and adjust font to match the original
OSS emblem;
Our liaison would prefer that the swimmer not
obscure the spearhead.

So we would suggest either

moving the figure slightly to the left or reducing
it slightly in size; and

Consider centering the inscription "Office of
Strategic Services" on an arc at the bottom of the
composition.
Obverse 18 features an OSS frogman carrying a
knife.
19 features the inscription "OSS" revealing
three figures:
in a suit.

a woman, a paratrooper and a man

Each is rendered as a shape without

details hinting at the way OSS agents sought to
operate anonymously or in the shadows.
Moving on to the reverse candidate designs:
Reverses 1 and 2 depict men and women in
silhouette representing they're to work undercover
as members of the OSS during World War II.
globe is visible in the background.

A

The

additional inscription reads "America's First
Strategic Intelligence Agency".
This is 1 and 2.
Reverse 4 features a satellite version of the
OSS spearhead with the inscription "Honoring the
Greatest Men and Women of the OSS".
Design 6 features a magnifying glass over the

inscription "Top Secret" representing the covert
nature of the work performed by the OSS during
World War II.
Reverse 7 features an OSS agent hiding in
plain sight as he walks through a small town.
design also features the OSS spearhead.

The

The

additional inscriptions read "Hiding in Plain
Sight" and "Behind Enemy Lines on Covert
Operations".
Reverses 8 and 9 feature OSS paratroopers
dropped into occupied territory.

Design 8

features the OSS spearhead and the inscription
"Daring Parachute Drops Behind Enemy Lines on
Covert Operations".
Design 9 features the inscription "So Low
Parachute Drops Behind Enemy Lines on Covert
Operations".
This is revers 8 and 9.
Design 10 features three OSS paratroopers
dropping into occupied territory.
11 depicts an OSS paratrooper dropping behind
enemy lines from a B-24 Liberator.

The additional

inscription reads "Covert Missions During World
War II".
Reverse 12 features an OSS spearhead atop a
globe representing the idea that the OSS operated
all over the world.
13 depicts an OSS paratrooper who has just
jumped from a B-24 Liberator.

The OSS spearhead

is featured at the bottom of the design.
Reverse 14 depicts the OSS spearhead alongside
the name of the branches of the OSS.
15 depicts a hand with a magnifying glass held
over the inscription "Top Secret:

Confidential"

representing the covert work of the OSS during
World War II.

The design also features the OSS

spearhead.
16 features the OSS spearhead inscribed across
the entire surface of the medal are also code
words related to OSS missions and agents.
Reverses 17, 19, 20 and 21 feature a quote
from Major General William J. Donovan:

"Only by

decisions of national policy based upon accurate
information do we have a chance of a peace that

will endure."

The designs all feature the OSS

spearhead.
Design 21 also depicts two paratroopers.
So here we have reverse 17, 19, the
recommendation by the CFA, and now our liaison's
preferred reverse, reverse 20 and 21.
I would also add if we could go back to
reverse 19, our liaison requested modifications
and the CFA agreed that the text of the quote be
used -- a uniform font be used and a period added
at the end.
That concludes the candidate designs.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

Dennis, may I ask you to begin?
MR. TUCKER:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

And thank you, Mr. Pinck for your time and
effort of working at this program.
I have to admit, I kind of got caught up in
the idea of trying to show everything that the OSS
ever did and ever became.

So some of these

designs try to show the spies, they try to show
men and women, more civilian type actions as well

as military.

But I understand from your eloquent

description of obverse 17, these people were
results driven, were active.
choice there.

So I agree with your

I think it's a great design.

It

doesn't try to do too much and pack everything in
but I think that's okay.

I think that it's

actually very good at showing what you want it to
show.
For reverse 21 -- was actually my preference.
I like the fact that the quote is included.

But I

also like the fact that we have some action with
the dropping of the parachutist.
So I am curious about your discussions that
went into that decision.

And I think you

preferred -- was it 19?
MS. STAFFORD:
MR. PINCK:
MR. TUCKER:

No -- yeah.

They preferred 19.

Do you want me to -Yeah.

If you guys are

(indiscernible) -MR. PINCK:

Now that I’m looking at it, was it

21?
MR. TUCKER:

Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
MS. STAFFORD:
MR. PINCK:

I think 21 --

Change (indiscernible) --

Now that I'm looking at that --

but I take your point of shows some action so
something happening rather than just the words -MR. TUCKER:
MR. PINCK:

Right.
-- to reinforce the kind of daring

and bold -MR. TUCKER:
MR. PINCK:

Yeah.
I like it a lot.

The olive

branches are a little shorter so they don't take
up additional space.

It always happens to the

spearhead.
MR. TUCKER:

Thank you.

One other I had on some of the reverse
designs, in some cases, we have General Donovan's
rank abbreviated "MAJ. GEN" and then there's no
period.

It's just an editorial thing that spit

out at me because my professional background is a
writer and I wanted to ask if there was any reason
not to abbreviate each of those with a period.
That would just be a correction that we'd make if

one of those designs is chosen.
MS. STAFFORD:

And just to be clear, from the

beginning, our liaison identified all of the
reverses that featured that quote as designs he
was interested in.

So as you can see, I think

he's very open to receiving the feedback and the
commentary from the committee before
(indiscernible) on our final decision.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Dennis.

Tom, would you like to go next?
MR. URAM:

Madam Chairman.

Since we're on the reverses, we can just stay
there.

And I agree.

I think 19, 20 or 21 are all

appropriate in what you're trying to accomplish.
I lean more towards 19 or 20 simply because we
have all of the action on the front.

I would like

to keep the words more relevant than trying to
retell the story down on the reverse.

So I think

you can get just as much mileage by doing it that
way than having a duplication.

Kind of like what

we were talking about earlier on some things
having two people and so forth.

So my preference would be 19 or 20 for that
reason.
And the branches are significant.

I think I

would go more or less with 20 because of the
branches.

If you want to add something versus

having another parachute and a plane.
three have the spear.

And all

So that works.

Going to the obverse, I'm going in a little
different direction here.

If we could look at

obverse 10, I really think that obverses 10, 11
and 12 make for a very interesting and very open
discussion on what it's about.

It certainly has

the intrigue and it certainly has a lot of things
going for it.

So I'd like to get the opinion of

the -- of Mr. Pinck on that as well as far as how
the committee felt about those three designs
because, in particular, number 10, which is not
quite as cluttered as that one is, that one tells
a great story there.
MR. PINCK:

Yeah.

We looked at these.

mean, this wasn't an easy decision for us.

I
We

were like poured over these and anguished over a

lot of them.
How do I feel about this one?

I mean, I like

some of the imagery and you'll see that some of
the imagery in this one is similar to the imagery
of the one we like the most, the spearhead and the
parachute.

I just think for whatever reason,

maybe the composition of the other one is a little
cleaner, a little bit more -- I'm not sure of the
word I'm looking for.

Bold.

I didn't dislike

these; I just didn't like them as much as the
others.
The compass motif, I’m not sure -- I was a
huge fan of that.

It seemed like it was

highlighted in all of these.
MR. URAM:

Well, again, the only reason I'm

asking you about (indiscernible) the report she
said it was carried with everyone.
MR. PINCK:
MR. URAM:
MR. PINCK:
MR. URAM:
MR. PINCK:

Not really.
No?
No.
Okay.
Not at all.

MR. URAM:

All right.

MR. PINCK:

'Cause if they got caught, they

know where they came from.
MR. URAM:

Okay, 'cause it was mentioned.

So

-MR. PINCK:

This one -- my opinion

(indiscernible).
MR. O'DONNELL:

If they would have taken the

compass out and maybe put the frogman in there
because then it provides sort of the action.
shows the globe itself.

It

What I did on most of

these is actually sort of rank them from 1 to 10
and came up with what I thought was the strongest
design based on a variety of factors.
MR. URAM:

Let's take a look at the preferred

design of -- let's see.
17.

17.

That was 15, right?

17.

I have no problem with it at all and

taking the wording "The" -- taking that out.

So

from -- if you did move the frogman back, the only
thing that I would be worried about is, it looks
like we just have three things -- it would be good
if we have a defined background here of some sort

because it looks like you're just placing three
things on the large three inch silver medal -- I
mean, I'm sorry, gold over bronze medal.
Go ahead.
MR. PINCK:

My other question for all of you,

'cause you guys are coin experts, I'm kind of a
little obsessed with that in balancing the text.
Is that important or not?
MR. URAM:
MR. PINCK:
MR. URAM:

No.

I don't know.

Okay.
I think that looks good.

I'm just

worrying about our layering, on how the layering's
going to -MR. PINCK:
MR. URAM:
MR. PINCK:

Yeah.
-- look on here.
Well, my understanding is it

starts on the left with water and then moves to
air on the right.
MR. URAM:
MR. PINCK:

Is that right, Megan?

Which would be fine.
Yeah.

Yeah.

The other thing I

want to point out, you mentioned the olive
branches which you like and which I actually liked

initially.

It's interesting 'cause that's very

reminiscent of the United Nations logo.

And an

architect named Donald McLaughlin was head of the
OSS presentation branch.
designed the UN logo.

And after the war, he

So it was a nice historical

connection with those branches.
MR. URAM:

So would you prefer the branches in

looking at it now that you look at it?
MR. PINCK:

Right.

As I look at it now, the

way they are in 21 -- 'cause maybe 'cause they're
a little bit smaller, they don't take up as much
space on the coin, yes.
MR. URAM:

Okay.

Well, back to 21, though, if

we had all these images --MR. PINCK:
MR. URAM:

Yeah.
-- and we have the images again

of -MR. PINCK:
MR. URAM:
MR. PINCK:
MR. URAM:
going on.

Yeah.
-- what you're choosing -I know.
-- I just think you have a lot

MR. PINCK:

Yeah.

a lot going on there.

No, I hear you.

We do have

And your point is very good

which is you want to focus on the words.
MR. URAM:

Right.

Yeah.

And then on the

action on the art.
MR. PINCK:

But then it's somewhat redundant

because we have a parachutist on the front.
Congratulations on all your work and then I
will vote according then -- that you prefer that.
And certainly, once again, it is your gold medal,
your presentation.
MR. PINCK:
MR. URAM:

Yeah.

We --

So I'd like to do what you feel is

relevant based on the discussion.
MR. PINCK:
MR. URAM:
MR. PINCK:
MR. URAM:
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.
Thank you.
Thanks.
Thank you, Madam Chairman.
Jeanne, you look like you have an

opinion you'd like to share?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I have a big opinion.

I would like to encourage Mr. Pinck and Mr.

O'Donnell to look at these designs in a different
light.

So many times we are collectors in the

sense -- you know, we feel safe.
certain designs.

We feel safe in

And certain compositions know a

symmetrical formality.

And I think sometimes to

shake some people up when you tap a little bit
asymmetry.
And one of the things that really jumped out
at me and I thought was wonderful was obverse 10,
11 and 12 because we have the spirit of the
civilians in here, the men and women.

And we

don't have that in -- unfortunately, in obverse
17.
So I think that if -- 'cause this is too
cumbersome for you.

It's a -- in my opinion,

these are beautiful in that it has action, it has
the civilians, it has the military.

We don't have

a frogman here but I interpreted that compass more
as a compass -- the (indiscernible) compass.
I may be very wrong about that.

And

But, you know, it

seems to me that we could sort of interpret that
compass to be some kind of a (indiscernible)

thing.
But I like the globe.

I like the parachute.

And I especially like the fact that we have a man
and a woman.
17.

And we're missing a woman on this

So we don't have a woman represented.

think we need to pay attention to that.

I

The fine

arts committee chose a design that did use
civilians.
MR. PINCK:

I'm sorry?

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

The fine arts committee

used -- chose the design 15 with civilians in
here, men and women.
MR. PINCK:

Correct.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

And it is very

cluttered.
MR. PINCK:

Yeah.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

But if we go back to,

you know, 10, 11 and 12, that kind of shadow
thing.

We know who those are.

Those are the hidden people

They are hidden.

Those -- so I'm just

asking you to kind of rethink what we're doing,
what we're saying.

And these are quite beautiful

designs, all of them, those three, in my opinion.
So I also like the fact that there's a
spearhead on the front, you know, of those in your
face spearhead.

It is -- especially in number 11.

I think that's really important.
who you are.

To me, it says

But it says it in a different way.

It says it in a more contemporary way to
(indiscernible).
Those are -- that's my opinion of those
designs.

And I appreciate all your help in

helping us to understand and learn about the OSS.
I think it's quite wonderful.
Thank you.
MS. LANNIN:

Tom, you had wanted to add

something?
MR. URAM:

Yeah.

With -- as Jeanne was

talking about that, what would you think about
number 11 obverse?

Even though it has the compass

on it and they were using the reverse 21 which
would have the other images that aren't duplicated
again.
So, in other words, you could use and have

something very creative for your medal and
mysterious in a way and then maybe get rid of the
entirely or put something on the (indiscernible).
But if you took number 11 in conjunction with 21
then you have no redundancies whatsoever.
Just a thought.

Well, what's your thought, I

should say?
MR. PINCK:

Very (indiscernible).

Well, I

just -- if you want to bring it up on the screen
again.
For one, I thought that the shadowy figures,
it's not very evident.

You had it -- almost can

glance at that and you might not even notice them.
Number one, it's not really -- it doesn't -- I
don't know.

I can't really tell what -- this one,

the compass, for one, like I said, it doesn't work
at all.

It's not operational.

operational.

It's not

It doesn't convey the action that

they have.
I mean, if you really wanted to include a
woman also, the parachutist on the one that we
recommended can potentially be wearing a

striptease suit that they wore which was a British
kind of smock.

And it could be a woman

parachutist if you wanted that.
MR. URAM:

Okay, Madam Chairman.

Thank you.

I'll wait and hear from the rest of our
colleagues.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

Herman.
MR. VIOLA:

Thank you.

quite an exciting program.

And again, this is
It's going to bring

life to something that's very little known in
history and in our society.
And I think they're all very fascinating.

I,

of course, being a navy veteran myself, I'd like
to see a frogman in there.

But I do think Tom's

suggestion is really quite good.

And maybe if you

-- on number 11, if you make those two figures
larger then get rid of the compass -- 'cause I
think the compass attracts your eye so much that
it just distracts from having a -- maybe that
could be done.
And again, as far as the particulars go, you

know, it depends on how much activity is on the
obverse.

But I think (indiscernible) done right.

I think 11 works with the parachutist.
everything in there.

It's got

So I think a little

discussion with our committee and people who have
(indiscernible).
Thank you.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Herman.

Erik?
MR. JANSEN:

When I look at a medal, the

obverse and the reverse kind of have two different
missions.

And the obverse in front of the coin

obviously often carries the personality, the
physicality of it.

And the reverse very often

kind of the ethereal mission.

And in general, on

the reverse, this is a much easier call in my mind
because it's very, very clear the degree of focus,
value, preference you have for the Donovan
statement.
So I think that's a very (indiscernible)
narrowing down to 17, 19, 20 or 21.

And from

there, although I like to follow our artistic bets

here.

I think necessarily one has to avoid double

instances of key symbols.

So if we end up putting

the arrow on the reverse, I kind of want to
(indiscernible) the obverse just so we're not
redundant.
Where I'm going with this, if I could shift
now to the obverse, first of all, I want to be
crystal clear here.
blunder.
attention.

I think obverse 15 is a major

I don't think that will grab anybody's
That is a very manila military obverse

and it is so attempting to include everything that
it's literally the average.

And average is not

what your organization is about.
Having said that, let's turn to preferences
here.

So I am analytically -- I'm trying to pull

together two things in this art.

I'm trying to

pull physicality which you guys did with the
intangible and intellectual piece of what you guys
did.

And that's tough.

But things that are tough

are always made easier through symbolics.
am really drawn to 10, 11 and 12.

And I

And based on

what I've heard so far, respecting your version in

the compass, I go straight to 12.

And on 12, I

get the physicality in the parachuter and that's a
pretty physical thing.

It would be interesting to

put a frog person on here but then we're going to
have so much stuff, it's just going to disappear.
I am intrigued by the use of the silhouettes
because they're there but you really can't say
exactly who's there which is the essence, I think,
the intellectual piece of what you did.

My

question to the sculptors here -- Don, would those
profiles be incused as flat?
relief and flat?
MR. EVERHART:

Would they be middle

What would they be?
I was just thinking about that

myself, Erik.
My original idea would be to have them raised
and flat.
MR. JANSEN:

Yeah.

That's where I came out on

as well -MR. EVERHART:
MR. JANSEN:

Yeah.
-- 'cause incuse doesn't work.

You want these things -MR. EVERHART:

Yeah.

Plus it overlaps the

globe.

So --

MR. JANSEN:

Yeah.

MR. EVERHART:

-- that would make more sense,

I think, if it was raised.
MR. JANSEN:

And you can get the metal

movement in a flat plateau?

Is that going to

satisfy?
MR. EVERHART:
MR. JANSEN:

I think so.
And maybe that will, I think,

work to put some energy into what you were
concerned about in disappearing.

I guarantee you

they won't disappear if they're raised and flat.
They will (indiscernible).
The second thing I like about this design is
that's not a compass that's true.
That's true north.

That's north.

And that will, I think,

reverberate with the essence of the reverse saying
we need to focus on truth and factuality, if
that's a word, and always go that way.
Now it does use the spear point as the
pointer.

And I would argue there's something

wrong with the spear point.

The spear is not in

the middle.
MR. PINCK:
MR. JANSEN:

Right.
And so we got to clear up that

asymmetry there.

It's just -- you know, if the

thing can have an ergonomic defect, this one is
really out of balance.
So I really like 12.
has physicality.

I really like 12.

It

It has the intangible

intellectual direction.
has the precision.

It has the mystery.

It

And I think it'll make a very

interesting medal.
Knowing your preferences on 17, I don't think
I'd move the dagger off that point because that'll
put two points on the front and it will -- it'll
confuse -MR. PINCK:
MR. JANSEN:

That's a good point.
Well, I seal (indiscernible).

I apologize.
MR. PINCK:
MR. JANSEN:
on that one.

No, no.
And the rest of that -- the edits

It does carry a bit of the same

physical and intangible, intellectual but

intangible and intellectual is a little harder to
get.
So I voted 12 on that.

And just touching the

reverse again, with the parachute on the obverse,
I'd probably shy away from 21.

And I end up,

quite frankly, between 17, 19 and 20.

You pick.

The graphical layout of 17 is really nice.
Asymmetry is often focusing on the mind as opposed
to just letting you fall asleep in comfortable
symmetry.
MR. PINCK:
MR. JANSEN:

I think it's (indiscernible).
Well, you know, on the front, I

don't really care whether that's a spear pointing
north -MR. PINCK:
MR. JANSEN:

Right.
-- or whether it's just an

elegant kind of, you know, parabolic air -- I
don't really care.

The spear disappears on the

obverse design as far as I'm concerned.

And I

think it's really important on the back.
So I end up to reverse 17 just cause I wanted
a little (indiscernible) than the comfort zone

perfect symmetry.
MR. O'DONNELL:

I think you've got some fair

points on the -- what was number 11.
I think the point that I would make is in
1941/1942, there were no -- not 11.

I was

actually hoping that -- I was looking at 12.

This

one right here.
Yeah.

I think if you put a frogman in here,

it might work.

And if you take out the globe or

you can definitely take out the compass.

But the

point is that in 1941/1942, scuba was not invented
or (indiscernible) either.
that.

OSS invented all of

And that's the spirit of the OSS is the

innovation that they created frogmen teams, all of
that stuff.

Cedar, land --

MR. JANSEN:

And we have the die charts from

it to -MR. O'DONNELL:

Yeah.

And it's something that

I think would really -- you know, people could see
that.

And just look at the coin.

okay, I understand.

They're like,

And I think that that's why

the frogmen would really resonate there.

MR. JANSEN:

Well, to the extent that the

committee goes to 17, I'll probably put a motion
out there to put a swimsuit on the guy.

Just as a

note.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Change the parachutist

to a frogman and then have the parachute on the
reverse.
MR. O'DONNELL:
MR. JANSEN:
(indiscernible).

No.

(indiscernible).
We want to go to design

Maybe we could look at that.

I

happen to believe the parachute, the circular -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. JANSEN:

No.

It's great.

It kind of gives the design lift

like -MR. O'DONNELL:

And we do want to create

something that's not just meaningful but
beautiful.

We're trying to find a design that's

aesthetically -MR. PINCK:

Following up on Pat's point, you

know, one of the reasons I think we like the
frogman so much is because while every American

has heard of the Navy Seals, (indiscernible), no
one knows they started with OSS.
MR. JANSEN:
MR. PINCK:

Right.
One of the things we're trying to

do is education folks about that.
MR. JANSEN:
O'Donnell.

Right.

Last question, Mr.

You've written several things on this.

I guess, you know, here's the worst thing to ask
an author.

Which one is the best read?

MR. O'DONNELL:
MR. JANSEN:

Uh-huh.

MR. O'DONNELL:
MR. JANSEN:

Washington's immortals.

Washington immortals.

MR. O'DONNELL:
standpoint.

I would say --

Sorry about that.

MR. O'DONNELL:
MR. JANSEN:

My (indiscernible)?

But, no.

I'm from the OSS

There's a lot of great books out

there but I wrote a book called The Brenner
Assignment.

It's an incredible story behind the

lines as well as First Seals which covers the
whole story of the Navy Seals (indiscernible) the
OSS --

MR. JANSEN:
all of them.

I asked for one and you gave me

Well done.

(indiscernible) on the

shelf.
MR. PINCK:

The best book about General

Donovan, who really created the OSS, is called
Wild Bill Donovan.

It's by Doug Waller.

MR. JANSEN:

Thank you.

MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Erik, you've got your book

list.
Heidi?
MS. WASTWEET:

Oh, this is a tough one.

of creativity going on here.

Lots

Could we pull up the

(indiscernible) of the four preferences?

The

bottom two, number 15 and number 19, to me it's a
perfect example of what not to do.
everything but the kitchen sink.

The front is
It's trying to

get everything into that (indiscernible) that's
nothing.
And the fact -- while this is a fantastic
quote and there's no debate about that, I don't
believe this is the right place for the quote
because if you picture downstairs there's a little

gift shop.

And there's a display case with

Congressional gold medals.

And if you try to

mentally put this on that shelf, it does not stand
out.

And, Mr. Pinck, you had a great point that

we want something that's going to stand out.

We

want something that's going to educate people.
And the way you educate people is with curiosity
and a design that's going to pull people in and
say I want to know more about that.

And this

blending it in the shelf is not going to achieve
that goal.

So I'm going to be blunt and say I

don't like either of those designs.
MR. PINCK:

These are which ones?

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. PINCK:

15 and 19.

Oh, okay.

MS. WASTWEET:

Design 17, I'm not opposed to

but I'm not in love with it.

The one tiny detail

that bothers me is the diver's left arm is broken
the way it's bent.

I think it's fine to take out

the word "The" but I think that the asymmetry of
the text along the bottom is a very purposeful
part of the composition and there's no need to try

to force it into being symmetrical.
Having said that, I'm going to go a little off
script and if I could see obverse 4.

This would

look so cool in a medal.

It's unique.

It's bold.

We don't have anything like this on the shelf.
And if that foreground of water was raised with
the OSS incused into it, almost as if it's coming
up against a piece of glass and kind of flat
shape.

An exciting shape of the water, the bold

character.

This would be really eye-catching, in

my opinion.
Like the others in the group, I also like
obverse 12.

I appreciate the detail that they

didn't carry a compass.
easy change to make.

And it would be a very

This is more of a map

compass than a physical metal compass.

And that

it would donate more symbolically how they work
without border.
(indiscernible).
MR. PINCK:

No.

I was just going to say the

comments most interesting but I take Mr. Jansen's
comment well that maybe the compass is more not

(indiscernible).
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
(indiscernible).
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. PINCK:

Yes.

Yes.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. PINCK:
essentially.

It has multiple meaning.

Yes.

Absolutely.

I like --

It's more of an (indiscernible),

(indiscernible).

MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

I agree with Erik about

the repeating patterns of the circle.
makes this design work.

That's what

I would personally, if I

were the sculptor of this, I would incuse the
figures because the anonymity was important to
their safety.

Am I correct --

MR. PINCK:

Yes.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:

-- in saying that?
You what the figures?

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. O'DONNELL:
MS. WASTWEET:

I'm sorry.

Incuse them.
Very.
Cut them away to the cut end

And it would be bold.

It would -- because they're

flat and there's so much other detail going on, it

would stand out very bold.
MR. PINCK:

The other thing in looking at

this, what (indiscernible) that I like so much now
that I don't think I really appreciated before was
that in the parachutist is floating above the
earth.
MR. JANSEN:

Oh yeah.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. PINCK:

Yeah.

That's --

That's very powerful.

MS. WASTWEET:

And I love the fact that we get

to represent the women on this.
MR. PINCK:

That's true, too.

That's

something else -MS. WASTWEET:
MR. PINCK:

Yeah.

-- (indiscernible) 'cause at this

point, obviously, includes them which I think is
very important.
MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

And it includes them in a

non-(indiscernible) Way -MR. PINCK:

Right.

MS. WASTWEET:

-- and an easy way -- the spear

being behind the parachutist slightly obscures so

it's there but it's not that's really the goal
(indiscernible).
MR. PINCK:

I really like that.
Yeah.

This one especially.

hard (indiscernible) get the bill passed.

It's

And now

I got to pick a design.
MS. WASTWEET:

And the three (indiscernible).

I'm going to go out on a limb and I'm going to
look at 16.

This is less literal.

this would stand out on the shelf.

And again,
It would look

so bold the way those letters come up and then
(indiscernible).
spear.

They cut in.

MR. PINCK:
agree with you.
love it.

So the letters are north of the
It's really creative.

It is.

My only -- the only -- I

When I saw this, I was like I

My only concern about it is that when

most people are looking at it, they wouldn't
recognize any of those words.

It would just say

"(indiscernible) Mission" -MS. WASTWEET:
MR. PINCK:

No.

MS. WASTWEET:
(indiscernible)

But I love that.

Yeah.

Because they're

MR. PINCK:

Yeah.

It's a beautiful design.

So (indiscernible) you have a frogman on the front
and this on the back or what do you do?
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. PINCK:

Yeah, which is 11 --

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. PINCK:

I like 12.

I like --

-- design.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. PINCK:

I have -- yeah.

That's a beautiful --

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. PINCK:

I'm torn on the obverse.

-- the frogmen.

Yeah.

MS. WASTWEET:

And then this one really stands

out to me on the reverse.

The Donovan quote is

fantastic.
MR. PINCK:

Yeah.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. PINCK:

I think it has a better place.

Okay.

MS. WASTWEET:

Whether it's the -- you can be

in the accompanying -MR. PINCK:

Right.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. PINCK:

-- literature.

But doesn't the Smithsonian create

like a display stand and they have -MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:
MR. PINCK:

Right.
Oh, absolutely.

I think that's --

MS. WASTWEET:

There's an insert in the

packaging -MR. PINCK:

Yeah.

MS. WASTWEET:

-- usually.

That's a great

place to put a quote.
MR. PINCK:

You're right.

MS. WASTWEET:
read a medal.

You don't necessarily want to

They want to hold it, feel it, see

it, (indiscernible) it.
the shelf.

It's got to stand out on

Then once the person has it in his

hand, then they're going to read the details and
refer to the packaging and that sort of thing.
So -MR. PINCK:

Yeah.

MS. WASTWEET:

Once I -- yeah.

Some choice.

Now that's what's great about the committee is
that -MR. PINCK:

Yeah.

MS. WASTWEET:

-- we're torn and then the vote

comes up -MR. PINCK:

Yep.

MS. WASTWEET:
first step.

-- and usually it's the right

That's my artistic opinion and

I'll -MR. PINCK:
MS. LANNIN:

You guys are (indiscernible).
Thank you, Heidi.

Robert?
MR. HOGE:

Thank you.

I appreciate all the

work in this as well.
First of all, I would have to say that I can
understand where the CFA was coming from in terms
of their selections.

Obverse 15 is not very

effective in terms of excitement but they tried to
be very inclusive here.

And I recently learned an

aspect of the OSS of which I was totally
unfamiliar in trying to assist my wife in a
project of seeking some documents through the
National Archives.

I discovered (indiscernible)

that they were involved in investigating the
illicit trafficking in Nazi (indiscernible) art,

in a sense.
But how are we going to convey this sort of
thing.

We want action but there was a terrific

amount of intellectual (indiscernible) in the
documentary investigation going on.

December 15

is really the only one that endeavors to capture
this aspect of the OSS.

So whereas this is not

necessarily effective, they have some things that
you wouldn't want to see at all, the idea was a
good one.

And the reverse selected 19, it's kind

of weak but I really do like the quote from
Donovan (indiscernible) medal.

And this is -- the

whole idea -- this process of (indiscernible) war
leading to peace and will endure.

I think it's

really highly important.
I do have to say that I appreciate especially
the frog man and sort of (indiscernible) these
aspects of the war.

But I question how important

is it to have the spear point on both sides?

Is

this like -MR. PINCK:

No.

to have it on one.

I mean, I think it's adequate
I don't think it has to be on

both.
MR. HOGE:

So maybe it could be eliminated and

something done a little bit differently on obverse
17, for instance?
MR. PINCK:
MR. HOGE:

Yep.
If we were to (indiscernible)

reverse (indiscernible).
I like a lot of these designs but I like -and I'd like to see a little bit more events.
know that there was so much going on.

I

I'd like to

not exclude various aspects of this strategic
operation.
That's about (indiscernible).
MR. PINCK:
comments.

(indiscernible) intellectual

It's hard to convey that, I think.

MR. HOGE:

It's very hard.

MR. PINCK:

Somebody said -- someone said my

(indiscernible) Harvard Ph.D. but then
(indiscernible).
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. HOGE:
MS. LANNIN:

Yep.

Yeah.
Kareem, you're up.

MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:

My (indiscernible) question

just -- I noticed a couple of different designs on
the spear point.
MS. LANNIN:

Like in 14 -(indiscernible) talking about.

MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:

Just the spear point in the

reverse, the spear point in reverse 14.
So you see that (indiscernible) middle?

And

it's a little bit different from some of the other
ones?

Any significance to that --

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Stylistic choice by the

artist.
MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:

That's all?

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:

Yes.

Okay.

So I just thought

that while Bill's words were very important, I
just would suggest that you compromise maybe to
strengthen the frogman a little bit and get his
words either the front or the back or eliminate
the spear on one side or the other and use that
room to convey everything that you want to convey.
MR. PINCK:

Okay.

MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:

But then I thought you made

good choices.
MR. PINCK:

Thank you.

MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:
MS. LANNIN:

-- (indiscernible).

Thanks, Kareem.

I'm going to do something -- I just want you
to think about something that no one's talked
about yet.

Take a look at obverse 19.

MR. PINCK:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. PINCK:
MS. LANNIN:

Yeah.
Well, to me, that is striking.
Yeah.
It's mysterious.

It shows action

and you really don't know what they're up to.

And

you really truly don't know where they're going.
And if you paired that with the one -- the reverse
that Heidi liked which is number 16, you've got
all the code words that are sending those shadowy
figures out somewhere.

And you got -- I think

that is a really strong reverse.

The spear is

great.
I don't dislike the one that you chose.

I

like -- I'm interested in the fact that they
(indiscernible) precursor to scuba.

I also think

it's perfectly okay to have that knife pointing
toward the tip of the spear.

I mean, I'm good

with that.
I'm wondering about -- we all watched
Adventures in Paradise and (indiscernible) of the
Kings in the '60s, right?
did they actually use?

What kind of flippers

They looked really modern

to me.
MR. O'DONNELL:

They actually invented the

flippers.
MS. LANNIN:

So is that an accurate --

MR. O'DONNELL:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. PINCK:

You can get a picture --

Is that an accurate depiction?
They can be modified slightly but

they're not horrendous.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. O'DONNELL:

Okay.

But they invented them and

they actually -- for the (indiscernible) utilize
them.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. PINCK:

Okay.

All right.

So --

But one thing I would just sort of

mention, I think you've got some excellent points

about the sort of aesthetics and sort of the
mystery of the OSS.

One thing I would point out,

though, is (indiscernible) four books on the OSS
in the cover of (indiscernible).

And what I mean

by that is, people don't understand what the OSS
means.

So you almost have to tell them.

And if

you put something so mysterious like some of
these, they're not going to get it.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. PINCK:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. PINCK:
MS. LANNIN:

That would be a great -Some of it --- movie poster.
I'd like to -Don't you think?

I mean, if you

saw that in a theater, you'd think, wow, it's
graphic.

Really -- it's a really great design.

MR. PINCK:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. PINCK:
MS. LANNIN:

Yeah.
It gets a woman in there
It has a woman.

And it has --

And it's mysterious.

And you've

got the action with the parachute and the
(indiscernible).
MR. PINCK:

Yep.

MS. LANNIN:
MR. PINCK:

So I understand -Can we go back to that one for a

second?
MS. LANNIN:

The very last one --

MS. SULLIVAN:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. PINCK:

19.
19.

Yeah.

I said this (indiscernible)

19 choice.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. PINCK:
MS. LANNIN:

So to me -Yeah.
-- I would walk over and pick

this up and think what's this.
MR. PINCK:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. PINCK:
MS. LANNIN:

Right.
I'm sorry.

I'm just --

Yeah.
But I just -- I really like it.

I like the way the artist laid it out.
MR. PINCK:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. PINCK:
MS. LANNIN:
whole face.

Yeah.
I like that they're hidden.
Yeah.
At no point do you ever see a

You know, I just -- I think that this

is a really great piece of art.
stance of that woman.
MR. URAM:

And look at the

Would you mess with her?

Mary, you would see that on the

(indiscernible) but technically you've seen it
down the (indiscernible).
MS. LANNIN:

Yeah.

I just -- I think that

this has a lot of mystery to it.
MR. PINCK:
MS. LANNIN:
reason.

Yeah.

It (indiscernible).

And I really like for that

I could also see that being paired with

one of the reverses that you prefer which has the
gun and the quote.
MR. PINCK:
MS. LANNIN:

Yeah.
And then put the one -- the one

that Erik liked which was, what, number 16, Erik?
With the spear to the left.
MR. JANSEN:

Yeah.

MS. LANNIN:

It was the unbalanced one.

MR. JANSEN:

I like the 17 --

MS. LANNIN:

17.

17.

I think that that is

also a great graphic.
MR. PINCK:

Should we think of this -- I mean,

you said it looks like a (indiscernible) art.

I'm

wondering in your opinion if we should think of
this medal first and foremost as art.
MS. LANNIN:

You bet it is.

MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. PINCK:

It does.
You bet it is.

So if it's art then we ought to be

thinking -MS. LANNIN:

Yeah.

And you want somebody to

walk over to the display case -MR. PINCK:
MS. LANNIN:

Right.

Right.

-- what Heidi was talking

about -MR. PINCK:
MS. LANNIN:

Right.
-- and not think, oh, it's just

another World War II kind of a thing.
MR. PINCK:
MS. LANNIN:

So, I mean, I'm thinking -You want them to pick something

up.
MR. PINCK:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. PINCK:

Right.
That's half the sale.
Yeah.

No, you're right.

MS. LANNIN:
MR. PINCK:

You know?
That's why I'm thinking maybe you

put the OSS one, if you like, on the front and
maybe the spearhead on the back and that will be a
very -MS. LANNIN:
MR. PINCK:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. PINCK:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. PINCK:
MS. LANNIN:

Yeah.

This is clean.

Yeah.
The graphics are great.
This one?
This reverse is really clean.
Yeah, okay.
And then the obverse 19 is just a

mystery to everything.
Okay.

So that's -- I'm totally --

MR. PINCK:
MS. LANNIN:

Yeah.
-- the outlier pretty much except

for agreeing with Erik on the reverse on this
whole thing.

But I love this.

MR. PINCK:

This one?

MR. JANSEN:

No.

MS. LANNIN:

Okay?

ability goes.

Yeah.

I was just -- yeah.
So we'll see how my sales

MR. URAM:

You know what they say?

They sell

(indiscernible).
MS. LANNIN:

That's right.

And then it would

be obviously 1942 to 1945.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. PINCK:

Yes.

Well, actually, yes.

OSS was

(indiscernible) COI was really (indiscernible).
MS. LANNIN:

So that's really all I have to

say on that whole issue.
(Pause)
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

For those that have filled

out their ballots and not listened to my winning
argument, everything on this day (indiscernible),
how about we have a 15-minute recess and be back
at 4 o'clock?

Okay?

(Recess from 3:46 p.m. until 4:01 p.m.)
MS. LANNIN:

Now I mean it.

It's 4:02 and

we're back from our 15 -- 17-minute recess.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

Greg is going to read

our scores.
MR. WEINMAN:

Okay.

I say hot off the press

but we're not to go press yet.

On the screen,

though.
For the obverse, it appears that there is one
design that made your threshold which is design 12
which received 16 points.
others that are close.

But there are some

I'm just going to go

through them quickly so you know:
01 and 2 and 3 each got zero points.
04 got 11 points.
06 got zero.
07 got three.
08 and 9 both received zero.
010 received four.
011 received five.
012, as noted, received 16.
13 received zero.
15 and 16 each received one.
And then 17 received 13.
18 received three.
And 19 received 10.
That's the obverse designs.
Going to the reverse designs, at the moment,
there is no reverse design that garnered 14 votes.

So you'll have to have a discussion about that.
But the votes did come in as such:
Reverse 1 received five.
2 received zero.
4 received one
6 received zero.
7 received one.
8 received zero.
9 received one.
10 received zero.
11 received two votes.
12 received two votes.
13 received nine.
14 received two votes.
15 received one vote.
16 received eight votes.
17 received 11 votes.
19 received six votes.
20 received 10 votes.
And 21 received nine votes.
received nine votes.
(Pause)

Reverse 21

MS. LANNIN:

Would anyone like to make a

motion or to champion their particular favorite
for obverse and reverse?
MR. WEINMAN:
to be a tool.

Typically, the voting is meant

So I think if you want to make a

motion, this is probably the better time to do
that based on the data that you now have in front
of you.
MR. HOGE:

I'll make a motion that we have a

(indiscernible) vote on the three highest
(indiscernible), which are 17, (indiscernible).
MR. WEINMAN:

They can do it right now if they

want.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Anyone want to second Robert's motion?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Yeah.

Reverse 17, 20

and 21.
MR. JANSEN:
MR. HOGE:
MR. JANSEN:

Do we want to do a revote just -Just based on just those.
If you could vote 3, 2 or 1 on

each or any of the (indiscernible).
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Can we have a

discussion?
MS. LANNIN:

Yes, Jeanne.

What would you like

to say?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Well, if we vote on one

of these, would it be permissible to make
suggestions on what we would add or subtract?
MS. LANNIN:

Yes.

MR. WEINMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

I think so.

We have to have another motion.
We have to have a motion.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

(indiscernible) have a

motion, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

We can vote zero on

this, too.
MR. URAM:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. URAM:

(indiscernible).
I can't hear you, Tom.

Sorry?

Get it down with one and then

vote -MS. LANNIN:

And then make a motion on what we

would like to change.
MR. HOGE:

Or alternatively, maybe none of

them will meet the threshold and we have to come
up with more designs --

MS. LANNIN:
MR. HOGE:

That's --- if we get zeros.

MS. LANNIN:
Okay.

Don't go there.

So Erik seconded Robert's motion of

taking the top three obverse designs.

Did you put

reverse designs in that?
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

Only reverse.

They were --

Only reverse.

MR. WEINMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

They were 17, 20 and 21.
Okay.

So the obverses we still

16.

Obverse (indiscernible) --

didn't -MR. WEINMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

16 was the obverse.

All right.

So all in favor of Robert's motion?
MR. URAM:

Which (indiscernible) we were doing

(indiscernible)?
MS. LANNIN:

17, 20 and 21.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

That's reverse on all

of them.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. LANNIN:
MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

Reverse.

I'm sorry.

Personally --

Reverse.

MS. LANNIN:

Yes, Heidi?

MS. WASTWEET:

Personally, I'm okay with just

going with our high vote on the reverses as a
recommendation.
MR. WEINMAN:
motion.

You're speaking against the

There's a --

MS. LANNIN:

Yeah.

MR. WEINMAN:

We have --

The motion on the full art

(indiscernible).
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

What I voted as

(indiscernible) -MR. WEINMAN:

Is to --

MS. WASTWEET:

So we have to call for

(indiscernible).
MR. WEINMAN:

Somebody call for a motion.

MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:

I call for a motion.
All right.

So all in favor of

Robert's motion to just vote on the top three vote
getters which are 17, 20 and 21 of the reverse say
aye.
THE COMMITTEE:
MS. LANNIN:

Aye.

Opposed?

(indiscernible) not (indiscernible).
Eight to one.

Sorry.

Okay.

So -MR. URAM:

Can we discuss the obverse so that

we know what we're doing with the obverse?
MS. LANNIN:

The obverse is obverse 12.

So

we've got to pair it with that.
Jeanne, what would you like to say?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

What I would like to say

is we need to pair with this.

And while number 17

would pair very well with the obverse -MS. LANNIN:

12.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Yes.

It would have

paired well with obverse 19 which, I think,
garnered several changes of mind which is great.
So I would think we could pair 17 and 19.
we have 12, obverse 12.

But now

So in my opinion, even

though this is a very -- reverse 17 is a very
crisp and wonderful design, I don't think it
really goes with obverse 12.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

So I would consider 20

or 21 for that obverse.
MS. LANNIN:

So what we have on the obverse of

number 12 is that they're using the spear point as
the point of the compass.

So what would you

consider doing with the spear point on the
reverse?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Well, I believe that's

not a redundant issue because the spear point on
the reverse is their logo.

And the spear point on

the obverse is a spear point subtly saying the
logo which I thought was very clever.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

So you've got no problem

with that.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I have no problem with

that at all.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

What I would suggest is

the -- if 21 was chosen maybe the parachute would
be replaced by the frogman.
MR. URAM:
MS. LANNIN:

Reverse 21?
Yeah.

Reverse 21.

Jeanne would

like to replace the parachute with the frogman.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Yes.

And then, Mr.

Pinck, you would have your frogman.
MR. PINCK:

It's a great idea.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

And you have your --

everybody is there but not there, you know,
subtly.

It's a

MR. HOGE:

Reverse 20 (indiscernible) is

obverse?
MS. LANNIN:
MR. HOGE:

Yeah.

So --

(indiscernible) obverse in making a

recommendation.
MS. LANNIN:

Right.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Should I make a motion

to that?
MS. LANNIN:

So can I just say one more thing

about obverse 12 even though my favorite didn't
win?

Does anybody think that that spear -- the

shaft of the spear is off-center.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

We did discuss that.

Okay.

We did -So that would be adjusted.

MR. HOGE:

The reverse 16 --

MS. LANNIN:
MR. HOGE:

Well -You liked --

MS. LANNIN:

I know.

But, you know, nobody

liked it as much as I did.
MR. HOGE:

I did.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I liked it, Mary, and I

did vote for yours.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I didn't vote totally

for yours.
MS. LANNIN:

Totally for mine.

Okay.

So,

Jeanne, would you like to make a motion?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
Thank you, Mary.

I will make a motion.

I move that we pair obverse 12

with reverse 21 and (indiscernible) of the
parachute becoming the frogman somehow done.
MR. WEINMAN:
that.

We can add a point of clarity to

Nothing we're suggesting --

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. WEINMAN:

Okay.

These are (indiscernible).

Just noting that these obviously are -- these

are different artists.

And so if we -- if, in

fact, a decision is made to replace the parachute
with the frogman, it's not necessarily the same
frogman from other designs.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. WEINMAN:

That's fine.

Okay.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I don't care.

A frogman

that would grace that reverse and fit with what's
going on here, I think I agree with Mr. Pinck.
like those branches.
branches.
wording.

I

I think I like those

I like the exit (indiscernible) of the
And I do think we need to include

frogmen with scuba diving.

I think that's really

great.
MS. LANNIN:

Jeanne would you take up a claim?

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

See?

No.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
visions.

I don't know.

Well, no.

We had (indiscernible)
The (indiscernible) with

this claim (indiscernible) drop the frogman, I
don't know.
MS. LANNIN:

So, Kareem, what would you like

to say.
MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:

I have an idea.

I think

maybe we could use the obverse of 17 without the
spear and the reverse of 16.

And that will give

you all the elements and the mystery and the
action.
MS. LANNIN:

Reverse --

MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:
MS. LANNIN:

Obverse 17 and reverse 16.

But we just voted on the motion

to do 17, 20 and 21.
MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:

No.

It was a different

idea.
MS. LANNIN:

Oh, okay.

Sorry, Kareem.

thought we were still working on that.
MR. ABDUL-JABBAR:

(indiscernible).

So I

Okay.
You have

this voted to have a revote on these three.

I was

going to ask a clarification on that before you do
that.
(Pause)
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
motion on the floor.

I think there was a

I don't know if it was

seconded but there was a motion on the floor to

take reverse -- to vote by reverse 21 because it
would pair better with obverse 12.

That's my

motion.
MR. URAM:

You have to ask (indiscernible) for

the (indiscernible).
MR. WEINMAN:

Yeah.

You have to -- yeah.

The

question is Bob's motion was already put forwarded
and seconded and passed.
MR. URAM:

So you'd have to --

You would have to --

MR. WEINMAN:

You would have to ask to rescind

your motion or else we got to do a vote first.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

We send them a vote on

number 21.
MR. WEINMAN:
MR. URAM:

Okay.

We do the frogs instead of the

parachutist.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. URAM:

(indiscernible).
That's fine with me.

MR. WEINMAN:

So there's now a new motion on

the floor.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

So state it again, Jeanne.

MR. WEINMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

Is there a second?
Tom seconded.

MR. WEINMAN:

Okay.

The motion is to clarify -- just

to clarify so we all know, the motion is to go
with obverse 12.

Recommend obverse 12 also and

recommend reverse -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. WEINMAN:

21.

-- 21 but substituting the

parachute for a frogman.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. WEINMAN:

Yes.

Okay.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. WEINMAN:

Thank you.

The motion -- it's been moved

and seconded.
MS. LANNIN:

All in favor of this incredibly

intricate motion, say aye.
THE COMMITTEE:
MS. LANNIN:

Aye.

Opposed?

Two.

So it is seven to

two.
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. WEINMAN:

It passed.
Motion passed.
(indiscernible) the motion.

MS. LANNIN:

All right.

MR. WEINMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

Are there any other motions?
Okay.

MR. WEINMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

Pardon me?

Are there any other motions?
I don't -- I hope not.

Are there

any other motions?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Okay.

So now do we

recommend -- do we make this an addition or we
just leave it to them to (indiscernible) to do
like this.
MR. WEINMAN:

You have it.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

And are you happy -- is

our stakeholders, Mr. Pinck and Mr. O'Donnell, are
you happy?
MR. PINCK:

Oh, yeah.

MR. O'DONNELL:

Absolutely.

But we (indiscernible).

think we got a great coin.

I

That's my opinion.

The only thing I would change potentially is the
compass style.

That's the only thing I would

change on that.
MS. LANNIN:
to the artist.

I think we can just leave that up

MR. PINCK:

Yeah.

MS. LANNIN:

You know, it'll be nice and

clean.
MR. O'DONNELL:
MS. STAFFORD:

I think it's very nice.
So what I have said to our

liaison who's Mr. Pinck.

I've recommended to him

that he take in all of this information because
that when we have conflicting recommendations both
from where he started as well as the CFA as well
as the CCAC.
discussion.

So much of it -- a really wonderful
And I think they were both nodding to

many people as even amongst the committee.

So I

think we're recommending that they -- before they
tell -- before he tells us his official final
preference for obverse or reverse that he take
this all in and make a consideration before
weighing in.
MR. URAM:

And, Madam Chairman, I'd just like

to also have them -- if the diver and so forth is
there, the airplane should be up to your
discretion when you look at it as to the
proportion as it relates to the medal.

And

significance.

And you'll have to determine that.

I don't think we need to.

I think you need to

look at it when you look at the whole design.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Are there any further

motions or further discussion or further stirring
the pot on this Congressional gold medal?
Okay.

I'd like -- before we adjourn, thank

you for everybody for coming in.
is September 19th, 2017.

Our next meeting

And it will be at Mint

headquarters.
And I would like to move to adjourn.

Is there

-- are there any further -- Tom.
MR. JANSEN:

Make a motion to adjourn.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

Second.

MR. JANSEN:

Then you can ask the question.

MS. LANNIN:

I just said Tom -- you second.

Okay.
ALL:

All in favor of adjourning?
Aye.

MS. LANNIN:
a while longer?

Nay?
Okay.

Nobody want to hang out for
So it is 4:17.

(Proceeds adjourned at 4:17 p.m.)

CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC
I, SAMUEL HONIG, the officer before whom the
foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby certify that
the proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter
reduced to typewriting under my direction; that said
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further, that I am not a relative or employee of any
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this action.

Samuel Honig
Notary Public in and for the
District of Columbia

CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER
I, Lisa Beck, do hereby certify that this
transcript was prepared from audio to the best of my
ability.

I am neither counsel for, related to, nor
employed by any of the parties to this action, nor
financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of
this action.

June 27, 2017
DATE

LISA BECK