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Meeting June 16, 2021 1 Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Public Meeting Moderated by Chairperson Mary Lannin June 16, 2021 10:00 a.m. Client Managed Remote - DC Washington, DC 20001 Reported by: Carl Hellandsjo JOB No.: 4614007 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 2 A P P E A R A N C E S CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEMBERS: . Mary Lannin, Chairperson . Sam Gill . Dr. Lawrence Brown . Dr. Dean Kotlowski . Thomas Uram . Robin Salmon . Donald Scarinci . Dennis Tucker . Dr. Peter van Alfen . Arthur "Art" Bernstein . Michael Moran UNITED STATES MINT STAFF MEMBERS: . April Stafford, Chief, Office of Design Management . Boneza Hanchock, Design Manager . Pam Borer, Design Manager . Russell Evans, Design Manager . Roger Vasquez, Design Manager . Joseph "Joe" Menna, Chief Engraver www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 3 A P P E A R A N C E S (cont'd) UNITED STATES MINT STAFF MEMBERS: . Ron Harrigal, Manager, Design and Engraving . Jennifer Warren, Director, Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs and Liaison to the CCAC . Greg Weinman, Senior Legal Counsel and Counsel to the CCAC and attorney assigned to the 2022 American Women Quarters Program . Betty Birdsong, Deputy Director of Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs . Ralph Conte, Deputy Chief Counsel and attorney assigned to the 2022 Purple Heart Hall of Honor Commemorative Coin Program PROGRAM LIAISONS: PURPLE HEART HALL OF HONOR COMMEMORATIVE COIN PROGRAM: . Russell O. Vernon, Executive Director of the National Purple Heart Honor Mission 2022 AMERICAN WOMEN QUARTERS PROGRAM: . Kristina Kiehl, executor and friend of Wilma Mankiller www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 4 A P P E A R A N C E S (cont'd) PROGRAM LIAISONS: 2022 AMERICAN WOMEN QUARTERS PROGRAM: . Consuelo Althouse, family member of Adelina Otero-Warren . Katie Peters, family member of Adelina Otero-Warren . Nancy Kenney, family member of Adelina Otero-Warren . Anna Wong, family member of Anna May Wong MEMBERS OF THE PRESS: . Brandon Hall, senior associate editor of Coin Update and Mint News blog . Mike Unser, founder and editor of CoinNews Media Group, LLC . Paul Gilkes, senior editor of Coin World www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 5 C O N T E N T S PAGE April Stafford 12, 23, 40, 61, 94, 107, 111, 128 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 6 P R O C E E D I N G S CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Good morning. It is ten o'clock. I call back to order this meeting of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee for Wednesday, June 16, 2021. To ensure that we have a quorum, I'd like to introduce the members of the committee. Please respond "present" when I call your name. Peter van Alfen. DR. VAN ALFEN: Present. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. BERNSTEIN: Arthur Bernstein. Present. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Lawrence Brown. [No audible response.] CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. GILL: Present. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: DR. KOTLOWSKI: Dean Kotlowski. Present. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Sam Gill. Mike Moran. Present. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Robin Salmon. MS. SALMON: Present. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you, Robin. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 7 Dennis Tucker. MR. TUCKER: Present. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Donald Scarinci. Donald is absent today. Tom Uram. MR. URAM: Present. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Mary Lannin, chair of the CCAC. And I am And we have a quorum. So before we continue the meeting, I would again like to remind each member of the committee to mute his or her phone or microphone on the Webex program when talking -- or not talking. And to announce your name prior to speaking each time so the court reporter can accurately attribute statements to you. Additionally, I remind the public to mute your phone, and that this is a listening-only hearing for the public. The agenda for today's portion of the public meeting includes a review of the obverse and reverse candidate designs for the 2022 Purple Heart Hall of Honor Commemorative Coin Program which is Public Law 116-247, as well as a review and discussion www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 8 of the reverse candidate designs for the 2022 American Women Quarters Program, Public Law 116-330, for the following women: Wilma Mankiller, Adelina Otero-Warren, and Anna May Wong. And Dr. Brown, may I have a "present" from you? DR. BROWN: Present, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you. All right. So for the record, I would also like to confirm that the following Mint staff are on the call today. And Jennifer, I'll get back to you on the press. April Stafford, Chief, Office of Design Management. MS. STAFFORD: I'm here, Mary, and I'll just take this time to ask all of the attendees to mute your mic if you are not speaking, because we unfortunately are working through some technical difficulties and so we're all going to have to be very aware of that throughout the discussion. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you. Thanks, April. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 9 Boneza Hanchock. MS. HANCHOCK: Present. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you, Boneza. Pam Borer. MS. BORER: Present. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: All right. Russell Evans. MR. EVANS: Present. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you. Roger Vasquez. MR. VASQUEZ: Present. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Joe Menna, Chief Engraver. [No audible response.] CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. I'll circle back to that. Ron Harrigal, Manager, Design and Engraving. MR. HARRIGAL: Present. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Jennifer Warren, Director of Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs and Liaison to the CCAC. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 10 MS. WARREN: I am present. And also, real quick, is any of the liaisons, R. Williamson, somebody e-mail me? Because they're showing up as waiting in the -- for it to -- and for me to start the meeting. I don’t understand what's going on, so -- I think I know what it is. Hold on. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you. Okay. Greg Weinman, Senior Legal Counsel and Counsel to the CCAC and attorney assigned to the 2022 American Women Quarters Program. MR. WEINMAN: Good morning, Mary. I'm here. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Good morning, Greg. Betty Birdsong, Deputy Director of Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs. MS. BIRDSONG: I'm here. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Good morning. Betty. Ralph Conte, Deputy Chief Counsel and attorney assigned to the 2022 Purple Heart Hall of Honor Commemorative Coin Program. [No audible response.] www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 11 CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. While we're waiting for Ralph, I would like to ask Jennifer the names of the members of the press that are on the call today. MS. WARREN: Yes, Madam Chairwoman. Brandon Hall, senior associate editor of Coin Update and Mint News blog. Mike Unser, founder and editor of CoinNews Media Group, LLC. Paul Gilkes, senior editor of Coin World. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: All right. Thank you so much. Let me turn the page here. And so we have the following liaisons that will be on the call today: For the 2022 Purple Heart Hall of Honor Commemorative Coin Program, we will have Mr. Russell O. Vernon, who is the Executive Director of the National Purple Heart Honor Mission. And for the 2022 American Women Quarters Program, for Wilma Mankiller, we have Ms. Kristina Kiehl, who is the executor and a friend of Ms. Mankiller. For Adelina Otero-Warren, we have Ms. Consuelo Althouse, Katie Peters, Nancy Kennedy -- Nancy Kenney, sorry -who are family members of Ms. Otero-Warren. And for www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 12 Anna May Wong, we have Anna Wong, who is a family member of Ms. Wong. So thank you all for joining us today. All right. So now to get into the business of the day, I'd like to begin with the Mint. Are there any issues that we need to talk about before we begin our meeting? Hearing no issues, I would like to ask April Stafford, Chief of the Mint Office of Design Management, who will present the obverse and reverse candidates for the 2022 Purple Heart Hall of Honor Commemorative Coin Program. April? MS. STAFFORD: Thank you, Madam Chair. Public Law 116-247, the National Purple Heart Hall of Honor Commemorative Coin Act, requires the United States Mint to issue three coins: a $5 gold coin, a $1 silver coin, and a half-dollar clad coin, to be emblematic of the National Purple Heart Hall of Honor, an institution which commemorates the extraordinary sacrifice of America's estimated 1.8 million servicemen and servicewomen who have been www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 13 killed or wounded by enemy action. George Washington created the Badge of Military Merit in 1782 to recognize meritorious action. It was intended as a military order for soldiers who exhibited "not only instances of unusual gallantry in battle, but also extraordinary fidelity and essential service in any way." to honor the common soldier. It was the first There are only three known recipients of the Badge of Military Merit, all from the American Revolutionary War. Once the American Revolution ended, the Badge of Merit was all but forgotten until the 20th century. In 1931, General Douglas MacArthur reopened work on a new design for the award. Elizabeth Will was named to redesign the newly revived medal, which became known as the Purple Heart. The new design was issued on the bicentennial of Washington's birth in 1932. The Purple Heart is awarded in the name of President of the United States to any member of the Armed Forces of the United States who has been wounded or killed. In developing the portfolio of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 14 candidate designs, the Mint worked closely with Colonel Russell Vernon, Executive Director of the National Purple Heart Honor Mission, a nonprofit organization that supports a variety of programs to promote the National Purple Heart Hall of Honor, to identify appropriate concepts and ensure historical and technical accuracy. The designs in this portfolio are presented in pairs, as artists were asked to develop an obverse and reverse design that work in concert with one another. Required inscriptions include a designation of the value of the coin, an inscription of the year 2022, and inscriptions of the words "LIBERTY," "IN GOD WE TRUST," "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA," and "E PLURIBUS UNUM." The Mint is also considering the use of colorization on a single coin in this program, but this will depend largely on the suitability of the designs. To that end, we appreciate if this committee considers colorization during today's deliberations and design recommendations. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 15 So on the phone with us today is our liaison, Colonel Russell Vernon. Again, he is the Executive Director of the Purple Heart Honor Mission. Colonel Vernon, may I ask you to say a few words to the committee? COLONEL VERNON: Thank you very much, April. Madam Chairwoman, I'd like to thank you and the members of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee for providing me the opportunity to speak today about the National Purple Heart Hall of Honor Commemorative coin created under Public Law 116-247. My name is Colonel Russell Vernon. I'm the Executive Director of the National Purple Heart Honor Mission, a national 501(c)(3) free nonprofit organization that supports a variety of tribute programs to promote the National Purple Heart Hall of Honor, recognize our nation's Purple Heart recipients, and educate all Americans about the sacrifice of those wounded or killed in battle to ensure they are never forgotten. We are proud to be designated the beneficiary of this historic commemorative coin program. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 16 The phrase "Some gave all, all gave some" is often said without full appreciation of the true depth of its meaning. Husbands, wives, sons, daughters, young and old, the Purple Heart has been awarded to Americans of all races, creeds, and ethnicities. From the beaches of Europe and the South Pacific during World War II, and the mountains of Korea to the jungles of Vietnam, the streets of Iraq, and the mountains of Afghanistan and beyond, wherever American service members have gone to advance freedom and protect our great nation, the Purple Heart is a reminder of the scars and sacrifice of war. Here at home, those who wear it are a testament to the service of the fallen and living symbols to others that freedom comes at a cost. Before I detail the Mission's preferred coin designs, and our reasoning behind those selections, I'd like to first take a moment and thank the members of the U.S. Mint's team, the designers, and all that worked on this project over the past six months. We are incredibly grateful for your efforts, your time, and your willingness to hear our feedback www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 17 throughout this process, and to make revisions. You have honored us with your professionalism and your passion for this historic project that will be appreciated by millions across our nation. As we reviewed the portfolio, we viewed the coins as a set and individually. It was important that the three-coin set told the story of the medal itself, the sacrifice made by the recipients, the price families have paid, and the personnel who cared for our heroes on the battlefield and get them home. It was equally important that each coin be able to stand alone. We believe our preferred coins have accomplished this goal. For the Gold series, the Honor Mission recommends, in order of preference, Pair 04, Pair 03, and Pair 02. The primary catalyst for these recommendations is the prominent inclusion of the Purple Heart on these three specific designs. Additionally, including a representation of the Purple Heart merit -- the Purple Heart medal and the Badge of Military Merit provides a strong connection to the award's history and its unique connection across www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 18 generations. The use of General Washington's signature was a strong design feature for us. Finally, on a minor note, we believe that while Purple Heart recipients and their families will instantly recognize the medal, we feel that the inclusion of the award's name helps make it clear to the public who and what is being recognized with this commemorative coin. For the Silver series, the Honor Mission recommends Pair 02A obverse and Pair 01 reverse. Alternatively, we would recommend the obverse of Pair 02, again with the reverse Pair 01. In this instance, we believe the inclusion of the Purple Heart prominently featured on the front of 02A and 02 designs continues to set the award and thus, the recipients, as the center of the series. Of particular note, we felt a strong connection with the use of the phrasing "COMBAT WOUNDED AND KILLED IN ACTION" which again helps provide context around who is being honored with this coin. As it relates to the reverse, the depiction of the nurse tending to the wounded soldier www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 19 spoke to the role that nurses, especially women, played in the lives of our Purple Heart recipients. Our heroes almost universally express a deep connection and profound sense of appreciation for those who cared for them after they were wounded, which we felt was well portrayed in this design. For the Clad series, our preference would be Pair 01, with Pair 03 being a secondary choice. We felt strongly that the generational impact of our Purple Heart service and sacrifice is particularly well represented by Pair 01. Additionally, the artist's rendering strongly and clearly represents the "ALL GAVE SOME, SOME GAVE ALL" axiom known to so many in our military and the Purple Heart community. Again, I want to thank all of you for your time and consideration. We feel strongly that the designs recommended here will not only have a deep meaning for our nation's Purple Heart recipients, but also provide an attractive series that will be of interest to the broader coin-collecting community. We hope you share our enthusiasm for this process, and I www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 20 look forward to taking your questions. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Colonel Vernon. Thank you. Thank you, That was very moving. So I'd like to ask before we look at the designs if Joe Menna and Ron Harrigal have anything to share with us on the committee on the designs for this coin program, particularly in the sense that we may be able to colorize one of them. Ron? MR. MENNA: first, this is Joe Menna. Unless Ron wants to go I'll hold my comments if Ron wants to go first. MR. HARRIGAL: Mary. Thank you. Yeah. No. I'm good, I'll defer to Joe on this. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. MENNA: Okay, Joe. Talk. Okay. First of all, I know this is an official meeting, so I hate to demean it by apologizing for wearing a T-shirt. I didn't think my video -- I didn't think my connection was going to work, but now it does, so here I am. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: It's a U.S. Mint www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 21 T-shirt. Never mind. MR. MENNA: Yes, ma'am. So anyway, my only recommendations to the committee would be that if the border of the heart is going to be colorized, to consider the scale of that heart on the preferred colorized versions, because if it's too small, then it may lose -- the point of colorization might be lost. So I recommend that colorization be preferably engaged on designs where the heart is bigger within the circle of the coin. That's all. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: I guess I have a question. Thanks, Joe. And Since I know -- I don't know enough about the chemistry of the colorization process. It doesn't make any difference if it's on gold or silver; correct? MR. MENNA: question for Ron. That would be a better I don’t mean to put my boss on the spot, but there you go. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. HARRIGAL: Ron. It doesn't matter. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So this is The real thing is to get www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 22 adherence to the substrate. Whether it's gold or silver, it has to be clean of oil, and we do test for that type of thing. doesn't matter. Clad, silver, or gold, it really You just have to have a clean substrate. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: So are they specially cleaned as opposed to our normal blanks that we use? MR. HARRIGAL: After coining, yes. Sometimes if -- you know, there is a bit of residue on the coins, an oil that will evaporate over time, but to actually clean them, we may bake them in an oven before we would apply the paint, just to assure that anything volatile on the surface bakes off. all. That's It's just a minor step that we may or may not have to apply based on, you know, the tests that we do for the paint adherence. MS. STAFFORD: Madam Chair? CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MS. STAFFORD: Yes, April. This is April. I just wanted to be sure that we shared with the committee that while the United States Mint is considering www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 23 colorization on one of the coins in this series, it would not be the gold. silver or the clad. It would either be for the So I just wanted to make sure we had that point as we move forward. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thanks for the clarification, April. So how about legal questions from the committee, or technical, before we have April read the descriptions. Anybody from the committee have any questions? Okay. Hearing none, April, would you please go through the gold. MS. STAFFORD: Absolutely. And I will follow the same -- the same that we did yesterday. Before reading out the materials, we will move through the portfolio, and I will pause at the designs that have been identified by our liaison as a preference, and of course should any committee member request, I can read into the record design descriptions for other designs that are getting attention. Beyond that, the Mint will make sure that our transcriber has a copy of the descriptions so that it can be included in the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 24 record for this meeting. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Thank you. Starting with the gold pair, we have Gold Pair 01, Gold Pair 02. Gold Pair 02 obverse presents the original Purple Heart designated as the Badge of Military Merit as established by George Washington in August 1782. Although never abolished, the award of the badge was not proposed again until after World War I. Reverse 02 for this pair features George Washington's signature above the original Badge of Merit. I just note that Gold Pair 02 is a tertiary preference of the liaison. So this is the third amongst his identified preferences for the gold. Moving forward, we have Gold Pair 03. Obverse 03 displays five stars representing each of the branches of our military: Guard, Air Force, and Marines. Army, Navy, Coast The obverse is paired with the reverse 03, which features the Badge of Military Merit, George Washington's signature, and the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 25 year 1782. Gold Pair 03 is the secondary preference of the liaison. Now we have Gold Pair 04. Obverse 04 features a Purple Heart medal with the inscription, "A GRATEFUL NATION HONORS AND REMEMBERS." The reverse design places George Washington's signature under the Badge of Military Merit and over a textured stripe. The inscriptions "BADGE OF MILITARY MERIT" and "1782" round out the design. Gold Pair 04 is the liaison's preferred gold coin design pair. Moving on to Gold Pair 05, Gold Pair 06, Reverse 07, and Madam Chair, that concludes the offerings -- sorry. I apologize. Reverse 7A. That concludes the options for the gold. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: All right. Thank you. And so before we begin talking about this, remember our five-minute rule, and please identify yourself because we have a new transcriber today, and who doesn't recognize our voices. So we're www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 26 going to be keeping track of time, and we're going to indicate when time is up, and ask the members to wrap up their comments when they're close to their five minutes. And additionally, if any members have questions or comments on any of the programs, please refrain from asking or discussing it until you are recognized at the end of the discussion on this program when I ask for additional comments. So I'd like to begin with Dennis, please. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you, Colonel Vernon. This is Dennis Tucker. I want to address a topic that comes up often when we discuss $5 gold coins. The $5 gold coin is small. getting around that. work with. There's no That's the canvas we have to But even on a coin this small, the Mint's sculptors and technicians can produce a remarkable amount of fine detail. On coins of the 1980s and '90s, you don’t see this as much. more recent $5 gold coins. But look at our At a quick glance, you can www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 27 see the design and understand its message. Then, the closer you look, the more richly you're rewarded with details. If we're capable of making such amazing use of a tiny canvas, why not go for it? We don't need to simplify our gold coins just for the sake of simplicity. If a strong candidate design is well- balanced, artistic, and tells a story, but it's finely-detailed, well, let it be finely-detailed. I'll briefly give three examples of how the Mint has combined good design with fine detail on $5 gold coins. The first is the 2016 Mark Twain $5 gold. Zoom out, look at the coin from a distance, and you clearly see a steamboat on the Mississippi River. Zoom in, and you can count every railing on the steamboat's bow. The second example is the 2011 Medal of Honor $5 gold. Zoom out, and you can clearly see the entire physical construction of the Medal of Honor, the bars, the ribbons, the rings, and the medal itself. Zoom in, and in the center of the medal is a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 28 round inset, and inside that is a perimeter of stars. Within that tiny element within an element, you can see the details of every individual star. And the third and final example is the 2019 American Legion 100th Anniversary $5 gold. Zoom out, and you see an eagle in flight alongside the emblem of the American Legion, clearly visible. Zoom in, and every feather on that eagle is individually defined. more. That by itself is impressive. But there's To the left of the eagle is a badge. middle of the badge is a star. star is a medallion. In the In the center of the The medallion is encircled by rivets, and you can see every individual rivet. Those elements combined make up the emblem of the American Legion. We didn't have to sacrifice detail in this important symbol just because the coin was small. For the Purple Heart $5 gold coin that we're considering today, our liaison, Colonel Vernon, prefers design pair 04. This is well-balanced, it's artistic, it tells the story, and yes, it's finelydetailed. It's an excellent candidate for the $5 gold. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 29 Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you very much, Dennis. Dr. Lawrence Brown. DR. BROWN: Lawrence Brown. Good morning. This is And first and foremost, I'd like to thank the artists, because this is a wonderful set of designs. I'd certainly like to thank our liaison, Colonel Vernon, and thank you for your service, sir. I know that feeling of having served, having been in the military myself, not as an officer, so I can't say I have that experience, but I think that it is always wonderful to be able to come back from having provided service to our country. Madam Chair, I'm going to make it very simple. I see no reason to deviate from the preferences that were made by the liaison, and in that respect, I am hoping that only that when we get to the silver, to give comments about the size of that Purple Heart. Otherwise, Madam Chair, my vote would be the preference of the liaison. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 30 CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you, Dr. Brown. Mike Moran. MR. MORAN: Good morning, Mary. Mike Moran. First of all, I want to compliment Colonel Vernon because I think his choices were excellent. They helped me, but we oftentimes do not get a sponsor in here who has the eye that Colonel Vernon has expressed on these three coins, commemorative coins. I too will go with what he has done, with Pair 04, but I also want to call attention to number 02 of the gold coin pairs, and that's being the reason I call that to your attention is that the Purple Heart will be incused, highlighting all the more the portrait of General Washington. And I think that's worth merit, it's something we haven't done on a consistent basis with our coins, and I will also give that consideration as well. Thank you, Mary. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: All right. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Thanks Meeting June 16, 2021 31 so much, Mike. Tom Uram, please. MR. URAM: Thanks, Madam Chair. And thanks, Dennis, also. I had the red book out, and I actually have that -- I actually have the large copy, though, the large spiral. But you made a great point there with the badge and the eagle, particularly in the American Legion part there, so that's great. And all of this will fit on that planchet size. Colonel Vernon, thank you for your service as well. I did not ever serve, but my grandmother gave to me a Purple Heart which belonged to one of our relatives, and so I'm entrusted to that safekeeping, and that's an honor. Madam Chair, I'm going with the choice of number 04 as well. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you very much, Tom. Robin Salmon. MS. SALMON: This is Robin Salmon. Thank you, Madam Chair. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 32 These designs were wonderful, and I was also drawn to Gold Pair 04 for all of the reasons that have been stated previously. Gold Pair 02, though, has great merit, and I go along with what Mike said about the incusing on the obverse of that design. absolutely beautiful. That could be So think about it. Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thanks so much, Robin. Sam Gill, please. MR. GILL: Thank you, Mary. This is Sam Gill. I'm going to make it easy and go with pair 04 as well. It was certainly my choice from the very beginning before I knew what the preferences were from Colonel Vernon, and so I -- but I compliment the entire portfolio, and I also really was impressed with pair 02. But I certainly will be voting for pair 04. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you very much, Sam. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 33 Dean Kotlowski, please. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Thank you, Madam Chair. When I first looked at the portfolio, the first one that I saw was number 01, and I really liked it, and I still like number 01. I like the centering, I like the symmetry, I like the simplicity, working on a small canvas. "The Purple Heart." It doesn't have the phrase I don't think it's needed. I think the Purple Heart is iconic enough, especially for the people who will buy the coin. So I'd like people at least to consider pair number 01. I too liked pair number 04, and I also liked pair number 02 and the incusing of the Purple Heart as a way of highlighting General and President Washington's image. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you so much, Dean. Peter van Alfen, please. DR. VAN ALFEN: Madam Chair. Thank you very much, This is Peter van Alfen. And thank you too, Colonel Vernon, for www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 34 both your service as well as your presentation this morning. I also want to thank Dennis for his overview on the recent gold coinage, because one of the concerns that I had was in fact just the size of the coin, but as Dennis has rightly pointed out, there is no concern here, so I'm more than happy to support the preference of Gold Pair 04. So thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you so much. Arthur Bernstein, please. MR. BERNSTEIN: This is Art Bernstein. I agree with everything that was said with regard to Pair 04. I was particularly attracted to the reverse, where I felt that the sizing of the Badge of Merit seemed in the right proportion in comparison to the medal which is on the obverse. I'm all behind Pair 04. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you so much, Art. And I'm Mary Lannin. I'm the chair. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 35 And I too will defer to the choice of Colonel Vernon for number 04. choice. I think it's an absolutely wonderful I love the graciousness of George Washington's signature. That really brought it home for me. I also agree with my colleagues on the incused part of design number 02, which is very interesting. So I'm going to give some points to that as well. So anybody have any additional comments of clarifications? Colonel Vernon, do you have anything else to add to this? Okay. In that silence, I'm going to ask our committee to score the obverse and reverse candidates for the 2022 -COLONEL VERNON: Chairman, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I was on mute. Madam This is Colonel Vernon. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: COLONEL VERNON: question. Yes, Colonel? I just had a quick On the incused version, is there any reason www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 36 on coin 04 that treatment couldn't happen? It looks like the size of the Purple Heart is similar. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: that up to the Mint to answer. I'm going to leave I don't know if the artists are identical, and I don't know what they would feel about having their design altered in that way, of the two separate artists. Greg, can you give us some guidance? MR. WEINMAN: I mean, obviously, the CCAC is welcome to make recommendations. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: the designs, or the rights. Thank you. The Mint obviously owns It is something that the Mint would almost certainly want to go back and speak to the artists about before it made a recommendation to the Secretary. But as always, the CCAC is an advisory committee, and if it feels strongly about a design matter, you can make the recommendation presuming it's technically feasible, which I would of course leave to Joe Menna. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: next question. Okay. That was my Thank you, Greg. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 37 Joe, what do you think? MR. MENNA: Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to make a course correction. My comments about colorization were directed towards the silver and clad. I thought we were doing the whole -- all three at once. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: No. Joe, excuse me. MR. MENNA: For this in particular, for this in particular -CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: They wanted it incused. MR. MENNA: For the incused question, incusing this coin in question, the problem with that would be, to my eye, looking at the silhouette of George Washington, if you see the way the lower right corner of it almost touches the edge of the heart, and there's some pinched areas in there that are a little tight. I don't think that the portrait is probably correctly centered as it should be, and that may be artistic license being taken to provide more emphasis on the portrait. Because if you center this portrait, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 38 any way you try and center it, it's going to touch the borders. So it might look a little -- it won't look symmetrical if it's incused the way it is. It's going to look like a letter C wrapping around George Washington if that makes sense. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: sense. That does make Thank you for your comment on that. Does anybody else have any questions? Colonel Vernon, did you understand what Joe Menna meant on design number 04? COLONEL VERNON: Yes, I did, and I was -- I was presenting that comment in reaction to the committee's support of coin 02. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Exactly. Exactly. Thank you very much. So I believe that we should score our candidate designs for the gold and send your scores to Greg Weinman for tabulation. It is 10:38. We should be able to do this in -- by about 10 minutes to 11. Thank you. (Off the record.) www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 39 CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay, Greg. If you would like to read off the scores for the designs, that would be great. MR. WEINMAN: Yes. For the Purple Heart Hall of Honor Gold, out of 30 possible points, number obverse 01 has seven points, obverse 02 has 18 points, obverse 03 has four points, obverse 03A has five points, obverse 04 has 28 points, making it the high vote-getter. Obverse 05 has three points, obverse 06 has two points. Moving on to reverses, reverse 01 has five points, reverse 02 has 15 points, reverse 03 has five points, reverse 04 has 26 points, making it the high vote-getter. Reverse 05 has two points, reverse 06 has three points, reverse 07 has two points, and reverse 7A has two points. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you, Greg. I think that it's not unexpected, is it? I think they were great designs, and I hope Colonel Vernon is happy. So April, if you would like to start to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 40 go through the silver. Any further discussion on this at all? Nothing from our members? All right. So April, please go through the candidate designs for the silver, please. MS. STAFFORD: Yes, ma'am. We will start with Silver Pair 01, and I will point the committee members' attention to the reverse in this pairing. Reverse 01 shows a woman in a World War I helmet as she bandages a wounded soldier on a stretcher. Supporting World War I soldiers were more than 23,000 female nurses serving in the Army and Navy. Silver Reverse 01 is the liaison's preferred silver reverse design. Moving to Silver Pair 02, obverse 02 features the Purple Heart medal with the additional inscription, "COMBAT WOUNDED AND KILLED IN ACTION." It is this obverse 02 that is the secondary preference of the liaison. Let me just pause and confirm with the design manager. Russ, is that accurate? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 41 MR. EVANS: Yes. The preferred design is 02A, is obverse 02A, and then obverse 02 as appears -- yes. And obverse 02 is the secondary. MS. STAFFORD: MR. EVANS: Okay. So what you're seeing on the screen right now, obverse 02A, is the preferred. MS. STAFFORD: moving on to that. Thank you. And I'm just I just wanted to make sure I had obverse 02 correctly listed as the secondary preference of our liaison. So, moving on to obverse 02A, which is in Silver Pair 02A, this features, again, the Purple Heart medal with the additional inscription, "COMBAT WOUNDED AND KILLED IN ACTION." In this version, however, five stars represent the five branches of the military. It is this obverse, obverse 02A, that is our liaison's preferred silver obverse design. I would like to note for the committee's awareness that while the liaison understands the artist's intentions behind employing the five stars to represent the military branches, he www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 42 is not necessarily married to that and does not know if it conveys as intended, so that might be a point of discussion should obverse 02A be in contention. Moving on to Silver Pairs 03 and 03A, and Silver Pair 04. And Madam Chair, that concludes the options for silver. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you very much. I'd like to start with Dennis again, please. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. And again, thank you, Colonel Vernon, for your insight and work on this project. your choices are excellent. I think I agree with both of them. Let me -- I have no comments on the use of the five stars in obverse 02A. My -- forgive me for flipping around in my paperwork here. I like reverse 01, and I think it's very poignant, and I love the fact that we are satisfying the memories of our service members who www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 43 hold dear their memories of the personnel who assist them on the battlefield. My only -- the only thing I don't like about this design is the way the denomination is treated, as a dollar sign and then the numeral 1. I prefer "one dollar" spelled out. think it's more traditional. I I especially prefer it for military-themed commemoratives. depiction was not used until 2013. The "dollar one" If I'm not mistaken, that was the first time that that treatment denomination has been used on our U.S. commemorative, so it's a fairly recent design element, but the style has crept into other designs for the $1 and $5 gold coins since about 2015/2016. year. We see them almost every Again, I prefer having "one dollar" spelled out, but I also am not a big fan of design by committee, so I will just leave that comment there, and I'm not going to recommend that we change necessarily. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Colonel Vernon. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: All right. you very much, Dennis. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Thank Meeting June 16, 2021 44 Dr. Lawrence Brown, please. DR. BROWN: Thank you, Madam Chair. This is Lawrence Brown. I also salute the liaison's choices, and I want to add that we're not too far from having celebrated Memorial Day, so having this opportunity to talk about this coin design is especially poignant given the fact that we just came from Memorial Day. I appreciate Dennis's comments about the $1. I too understand that. But I would not want to do anything that would reduce the poignancy of that reverse in reverse 01. I think that is so phenomenal. I also -- I must tell you that as much as I do salute in fact and do support the Colonel's suggestion for obverse 02A, I would recommend keeping the five stars because I think that's an opportunity to educate the public about what that means, particularly given this award. I love the reverses on 02 and 02A. I just wish there was a way in which we could incorporate that, but I must confess that the reverse 01A is even more effective, and I like the fact that www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 45 in the clad, we'll be talking about how to best salute those who were descendants and the loved ones left from those who were wounded and killed in battle. So Madam Chair, again, I salute in fact reverse 01 and obverse 02A. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you, Dr. Brown. Mike Moran, please. MR. MORAN: Thank you, Mary. Mike Moran. I'm going to endorse Colonel Vernon's choices. I would make one suggestion, and that is, on reverse -- obverse 02A -- no, reverse 01. My bad. I've got them up here in front of me. If it were me doing this design, I would put the denomination below the stretcher, and let there be clear between the two of them and the motto "E PLURIBUS UNUM," one for many. I think that's certainly appropriate placement of that inscription, and the $1 gets in the way of the -- basically the art, and the inscription in this case is part of the art and the message. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 46 Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you, Mike. I will let you make that suggestion in our discussion. Tom Uram, please. MR. URAM: Colonel Vernon. Thanks, Madam Chair, and You're making our job relatively easy this morning because I too agree with the selections that is the preference of yours as well as the committee. remain. I too agree, the five stars I think should I think that that identifies and, as Dr. Brown mentioned, the fact that it could educate the public, and that's what we want coins to do. I think that the stars should remain. As far as the dollar goes, I agree; however, you know, if the Mint finds it appropriate, we've done a lot of edge-lettering, and we could also just put $1 on the edge like we've done with some of our other dollar denominations. another option. So that would be And that would have a totally clean field for reverse 01. Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you, Tom. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 47 Robin Salmon, please. MS. SALMON: Thank you. This is Robin Salmon. Colonel Vernon on this. I go along with I think actually the portfolio has a lot of great designs, and I was having difficulty. I'm glad that he made it so easy for me. I would vote for obverse 02A and reverse 01. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you so much, Robin. Sam Gill, please. MR. GILL: Thank you, Madam Chair. This is Sam Gill. Colonel Vernon's recommendations are superb. I certainly support obverse 02A, and I agree that the five stars should remain. I want to just comment on reverse 02 and 02A. To me, they were very, very moving from the standpoint of seeing what I would assume would be a mother holding a picture of her son, and I just found that to be very touching and very, very moving, although I really do like reverse 01, and I will www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 48 certainly support reverse 01 because I think it's very, very important that the support people get their credit, and particularly the nurses on the field, so again, I support the recommendations of obverse 02A and reverse 01. Thank you very much, Mary. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you so much, Sam. Dean Kotlowski, please. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Thank you, Madam Chair. Colonel Vernon, I also support the choices that you have made. I think that they are truly excellent, so this again would be obverse 02A and reverse 01. I have three further comments. The first is, I think we should keep the stars on obverse 02A, because I'm having trouble visualizing that design without the stars, and so I think we should play it safe. My second comment builds on what Dennis, Mike, and Tom have suggested, and that is on reverse number 01, I imagine there would be enough space at the very bottom under the stretcher and the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 49 head to put the words "one dollar," and I think that would be a very, very good idea if the committee is amenable. And my third comment builds on what Sam and Dr. Brown had said about reverse 02 and 02A. I will share this image if I'm able to in e-mail with the committee. It reminds me of a very poignant painting that I use in class that I saw in Australia of a post-World War I woman at a table, and on the one side of the table is a picture, somebody who she has lost, and on the other end of the table, she has her head down on the table folded into her arms, and she's obviously crying. And it was very, very poignant, to use a word that's been used, and very, very powerful. And a shout-out to this artist who did reverse 02 and 02A. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you so much, Dean. Peter van Alfen. DR. VAN ALFEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. Peter van Alfen. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 50 And thank you again, Colonel Vernon. I don't have any reservations about the selection of obverse 02A, and in terms of the design, I don't have a lot of reservations about the selection of reverse 01. I do have some reservations, however, about the way it's described. And one of the concerns that I have with this reverse is first, that it's a bit anachronistic. from World War I. This is a depiction of a scene This of course pre-dates the creation of the Purple Heart, which is, you know, a minor thing. I mean, the World War I soldiers were able to retroactively apply for a Purple Heart, but, you know, the greater concern I have here is that it does sort of -- this design, especially as described, does underscore some sort of stereotypical gender roles of the female nurse caring for the male soldier, which might be taken as a diminishment of the women who have received the Purple Heart. And something we might want to consider is just the way that this is described. If we shift the time frame from World War I to World War II, you know, this World War I helmet, the M1917, was still in use at the beginning of World www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 51 War II, and the first female recipient of the Purple Heart was Annie Fox, a nurse who served at Hickam Field and was injured during the attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941. So, you know, again, my only reservation about this is, maybe try and find a way to describe this reverse in a way that does incorporate the women who have sacrificed as well and who have also been awarded the Purple Heart. And otherwise, I'm happy to support these designs, so thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thanks so much for the additional information, Peter. Arthur Bernstein, please. MR. BERNSTEIN: This is Art Bernstein. I too support obverse 02A. I particularly liked the shading on the right one-third of the coin, which I thought was a very nice feature. I share the comments that Peter just made about the seeming inconsistency and the gender issues, and so for that reason, I was attracted to the more generic reverse 03, which has that very bold five-pointed star, which I found attractive as well. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 52 Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you very much, Arthur. All right. And so it's my turn. I support what Colonel Vernon has as paired with the reverse being number 01, and the obverse being -- of 02A being the obverse. the stars there. balance. I prefer I think it provides a lot of I think it provides additional texture to the right one-third of the coin which makes the Purple Heart really pop out. And to go back to what Peter said about number 01 reverse, I mostly would like to see -- first of all, I think number 01 should be -- the dollar sign should be below the stretcher if we can do that. can make a motion about that. We As long as the uniform of the nurse is accurate to match the helmet, I think if the helmet could reflect more toward World War II, because Peter made the good point that this medal was done in 1932, which is on the obverse. So that being said, I will support number 01 for the reverse and number 02A for the obverse. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 53 Thank you very much. MR. STAFFORD: Madam Chairwoman, Donald Scarinci joined us, so if he could also -CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: All right. Donald. MR. SCARINCI: So listen. Hi, everybody. To me, this is -- I'm delighted everybody is as in love with reverse 02 as I was. I just think that's -- that's just a great image, and the artists, again, you know, whatever went on with this batch of coins and the artists, I mean, we got some really good designs here. I -- sorry for the -- I left my clock. You know, to me, you know, when we're presented with pairs that are designed by the same artist, we're going in the right direction because the pair is the completed vision of the artist, and for me, you know, the -- you know, the medium is the message, and the art is what sells the coin. And the artists, you know, what we should be doing with the artists is highlighting them. I mean, we have some amazing artists working for us that don't just do www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 54 coins and medals. They do sculpture, they do other things as well, and they're good -- they're great artists in their own right. And eventually, the Mint will realize that and use the artists' -- and promote the artists, you know, to promote the coins. Eventually. Right? You know, but, you know, when we have an opportunity to support coins that are presented to us in a pair and keep the artist's visions intact, to me, I don't want to miss that opportunity ever. Because that doesn't -- this doesn't happen all the time. don't get this all the time. We So when we get it, I want to support it. And I personally like, you know, you know, the pairing of 02A the way it is, you know, without us meddling it up. You know, redesigning it, you know, moving things around in it, I mean, I -- the vision is a great vision. of art. I think it's a great piece I think it delivers a message. improved upon? Certainly not by us. qualified to improve upon it. Could it be I don't feel So I'm supporting the pairing of 02A, and I'm encouraging by my support the Mint to give us more pairings of one complete artist's www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 55 vision. You know, Leonne DeFink [ph] used to say that a medal is a four-dimensional object. You know, she used to say that when you touch a medal, and when you hold a medal out, and a coin is the same thing, you know, it's -- it's not a picture on -- on metal. It's -- you know, there's an obverse and a reverse to do something with, and the obverse and reverse transports you through time as well. So it incorporates not only the three dimensions, but that fourth dimension of time when you turn the medal, which this design does. medal itself. You know, you've got the You turn it around, and what are you -- what are you seeing? You're seeing this beautiful image, you know, of what, you know, what would purport to be a wife or a mother with someone, you know, you know, who's no longer with us. So I really support -- support number 02 for all those reasons. I encourage the Mint to give us pairings from the same artists, and I compliment the entire portfolio. It should all get -- it should all get a merit -- merit notices from us. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 56 Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you so much, Don. I'd like to ask Colonel Vernon if he has any comments about -COLONEL VERNON: Yes. I do. I appreciate all your feedback. It's incredibly helpful to me. We did love the reverse of 02 and 02A, but as I said in my opening comments, we look not only at the coins individually, but as a three-coin set, and we feel that in the clad series, the reverse of coin 01 does represent the gold star families and the sacrifice that families make, so that's why we felt the -- having the caregivers, and to tell their story in the reverse of 01 on the silver series really gave us a continuum of the full story of the Purple Heart medal and the recipients. go below. We agree that the $1 should We would prefer if it was written out as "one dollar" as well, but either way, we would certainly prefer it under the stretcher. And I guess that covers it. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 57 But I really appreciate you educating me. And one of the things that's important to us is that these coins sell, so you have a better perspective on what the coin-collecting community will appreciate, not only what we as veterans prefer. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you, Colonel Vernon. And I'd like to toss this back to the committee so that we can talk about the apparent discrepancy between 1932 for the current version of the Purple Heart that we use and the fact that Peter brought up, that the preferred reverse has a World War I type uniform. So I'm opening up for discussion. DR. VAN ALFEN: Mary, this is Peter van Alfen. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: DR. VAN ALFEN: Okay. The World War -- or the uniform used I believe by nurses in World War II is rather similar to that depicted, so I don't think there would need to be much modification. And that same helmet was used at the beginning of World War II www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 58 as well, so, you know, all we would need to do is just change the description really. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: DR. VAN ALFEN: Okay. And maybe also underscore Annie Fox, you know, as the first recipient, female recipient, you know, who was a nurse. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: All right. Thank you. Does anybody have anything to add to what Peter just said? DR. BROWN: Lawrence Brown. Madam Chair, this is I'd just like to second Peter's suggestion and recommend that the description actually include the information that he shared. I think that would be educational to the public. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you. And I'm sure the Secretary of the Treasury will appreciate that extra information as well. All right. It is now 11:12. I think that with all that we've talked about, if we give it ten minutes or so and return at 11:25, we can turn our www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 59 scores into Greg. Thank you. (Off the record.) CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: I'm ready. Please go ahead. MR. WEINMAN: Purple Heart Hall of Honor silver, silver design number 01 received seven points, obverse 02 received four points, obverse 02A received 30 out of 33 points, so it's the high votegetter. Obverse 03 received five, obverse 03A received five, and obverse 04 received two. On the reverses, reverse 01 received 23 points, making it the high vote-getter. Reverse 02 received 20 points, reverse 03 received nine, and reverse 04 received two. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: All right. Thank you so very much, Greg. And let us begin talking about the clad. All right. I would like to start out with Dennis again. MR. MORAN: Excuse me. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: This is Mike. Oh, sure, Mike. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 60 Go ahead. MR. MORAN: Should we deal with the placement of the denomination on the reverse of the second choice? CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: We could do it now, or we could do it after we've done all of the coins. Might as well do it now. MR. MORAN: All right. Well, I move that the denomination be moved to the open space below the stretcher, and the Mint evaluate spelling it out in full. MR. BERNSTEIN: Art Bernstein. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. Second. So Mike and Art. All in favor of Mike's motion, say "aye." UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Aye. Anybody opposed? [No audible response.] CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Motion passes unanimously. All right. Thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 61 And why don't we go on to the clad series. April? MS. STAFFORD: All right. So starting with Clad Pair 01, obverse 01 shows a figure in military fatigues and combat boots using a pair of crutches. The left leg has been amputated from the thigh down. The negative space below the amputated knee shows the missing leg in silhouette. The Purple Heart medal appears behind the figure, and the inscription "ALL GAVE SOME" sits below the composition. The background field has a subtle flag motif. The corresponding reverse, reverse 01, features a young boy holding the dress cap of an enlisted Marine. The silhouette of a Marine in dress blues stands behind him in negative space, emphasizing the loss that affects the families of Purple Heart recipients. The inscription "SOME GAVE ALL" is featured in the negative space around the boy in the lower half. The background field from the corresponding obverse is repeated. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 62 Clad Pair 01 is the liaison's preferred clad coin pairing. And we have Clad Pair 02, Clad Pair 03. Clad Pair 03's obverse shows an adult hand lowering a Purple Heart into the hand of a youth, passing on the knowledge of the Purple Heart to future generations. The complementary reverse design, reverse 03, features the Badge of Military Merit as created by George Washington in 1782 next to the modern Purple Heart as recreated in 1932 in honor of Washington. Clad Pair 03 is the secondary paired preference of the liaison. And we also have Clad Pair 05. And Madam Chair, that concludes the clad candidate designs. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you so much. Dennis, would you like to begin? MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. This is Dennis Tucker. And thanks again to Colonel. This is a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 63 remarkable portfolio. Kudos to the Mint staff and AIP artists who have submitted designs. This is amazing. Wonderful to be able to look through a portfolio of designs this strong. And Colonel Vernon, you've done a lot of the work that we normally do when we try to go through a large portfolio like this and make sure all three coins tell the story and match up and work well together. I think the gold $5 tells the story of the medal itself, the silver dollar talks about the personnel on the field who helped service members, and this clad design for Pair 01 is very emotional, speaks to the sacrifice not only of the service members, but also their families. So I wholeheartedly agree with this choice, and it will get all of my support. Thank you, Colonel, and thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you so much, Dennis. Lawrence Brown, please. DR. BROWN: Yes, Madam Chair. This is Lawrence Brown. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 64 And I echo the comments of Dennis. And I guess to me, the only thing that I wonder about is that sometimes, that we can be overly subtle with our designs, so for example, the word "LIBERTY" on the flag, I wonder how well that will be -- manifest on the clad coin. I know nothing about coinage and stuff, but I just wonder just looking at this picture. But I too like the combination of the obverse and reverse, "ALL GAVE SOME," "SOME GAVE ALL," and I must say that in part, that during the short time that I've been on the CCAC, I do echo the comments of my colleagues that we really get a liaison to lay out a portfolio in the way that you have, Colonel. But on the other hand, I must confess that I'm not entirely surprised, because military personnel tend in fact really appreciate the significance especially of a Purple Heart. I mean, of all the medals that you can actually achieve while in service, that is the one, besides the Congressional Medal of Honor, I agree, but besides that, the Purple Heart is the one for which almost every military person in every branch would recognize of its www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 65 significance. And I really love this combination, this clad obverse 01 and reverse 01 really fits to tell a picture along with the entire coins that we have already previously selected. So Madam Chair, that's my vote: Obverse 01 and reverse 01 on this clad design. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you so much, Dr. Brown. Mike Moran. MR. MORAN: Thank you, Mary. This is Mike Moran. I'm going to just be an echo chamber. It's Clad Pair 01. I would point out one thing. I think the Mint design staff has an opportunity here through frosting and polish to do an amazing coin. There's so much potential here. Again, on the denomination, the halfdollar there just kind of floats out there on the flag. I think that by the way that delivers, that first off, we give some polishing or some frosting to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 66 the flag in the background there. But the half- dollar, again, gets in the way of the eyesight of the departed soldier and his son. You know, Tom brought up in the last one, and I thought it was maybe a bridge too far. At the end of the consideration of all three of these, the half-dollar, if it were doable, it ought to be on the rim. And as far as that goes, on the dollar coin, it would be good on the rim there too. But the "half- dollar" needs to move out of the soldier's eyesight. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you so very much, Mike. Tom Uram, please. MR. URAM: Thank you, Madam Chair. You know, I thought the law enforcement half was really super, but this, I think this even goes above and beyond as well. You know, the half- dollar as it relates to the whole series is the most affordable to the collector and to people, and this is probably one of the best halves that we're going to be able to put out there. And so once again, I thank www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 67 Colonel Vernon for the keen eye here, and the committee that helped. And I too feel that the edge- lettering, if possible, but we could discuss that at the end regarding both the half and the dollar. Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you so much, Tom. Robin Salmon. MS. SALMON: Thank you. This is Robin Salmon. Yes. Pair 01 grabbed me from the very beginning. It's powerful, it's moving, and it's beautiful. I agree that there are so many opportunities with this particular design to make a spectacular coin. I also agree about "half-dollar" being located elsewhere, whether it's on the edge or whether it's down below "SOME GAVE ALL" in a smaller point size. But all of these designs have just been spectacular, and I do go with Pair 01. Thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 68 CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thanks so much, Robin. Sam Gill, please. MR. GILL: Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to echo what my colleagues have already said and recommend Pair 01. tells a compelling story. It truly It's very, very moving, and anyone can look at this and really feel what a sacrifice really means. And not that we could totally feel it, but it certainly demonstrates it, so I am all in for Pair 01. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you so much. Dean Kotlowski. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Pair 01 has a boldness and audacity, in the best sense of the word, design that is truly magnificent. And I remember when I joined the committee, Don Scarinci I believe said that he really wanted to support designs that could win a prize internationally. And I don't have enough expertise and I'm certainly not a fortune teller, but www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 69 I would imagine that this design would be a strong contender for some sort of international award. think it's just simply superb. I There's a kind of artistic inversion going on here with splitting the quotation into two parts, the play of shadows and silhouettes I think is magnificent. In the years I've been on the coin committee, we've seen a lot of American flags. I don't think we've quite seen them from this angle and this perspective. well. That adds as And when you speak of the poignancy, it's maybe a little anachronistic, and I'm grateful to my fellow historian, Dr. van Alfen, but from World War I, Siegfried Sassoon's poem, The One-Legged Man, very, very powerful, very poignant, and the obverse put that in mind as well. that poem. And also through e-mail, I may share I think it's just simply a magnificent design, and I'm extremely happy to support it. Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you so much. Peter van Alfen. DR. VAN ALFEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. This is Peter van Alfen. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 70 I am more than happy to support Clad Pair 01. I find this just artistically striking and emotionally poignant as many of my colleagues have pointed out, and I would also be happy to support moving the "half-dollar" elsewhere. So thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you. Arthur Bernstein. MR. BERNSTEIN: This is Art Bernstein, and I second everything that's been said about Pair 01. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: didn't need Don Scarinci. This was not -- we a lot of thought for this, and I think what I'm hearing across the board is the number 01 pairing, that's the coin. And what's very cool about that coin is, it is the clad. And, you know, so what Tom said, you know, the clad, the half-dollar clad is obviously the most collectible and everybody can afford it. If you can only buy one collector's, collect the half-dollar, blah, blah, blah, and yes. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 71 Assuming the sculpt does justice to this. You know, when I look at coins like this, this is very well -this is a great graphic design, and I try to put blinders on my eyes. I try not to see the pretty graphic, right, because there are artists who are, you know, some of our infusion artists are graphic artists, and, you know, and some of them are better than others in graphic arts. So I try to, you know, but this is not a two-dimensional object, you know. It's a multi-dimensional object. So I try not to look at the art that we're presented. And I can tell you some funny stories about the past with this, but, you know, so ignoring the art and looking past the art, and trying to visualize what this will look like as a coin with a good sculpt, I think, yes. To Dean's point, yes, this -- this is an award -- this could be an award winner. artistically. It has everything you want to see It's emotive, it's emotional, it's inspirational, it's powerful. You know, I -- you know, I'm sorry to take so long to even talk about this coin. I wasn't intending to do that because this is such a no-brainer and everybody seems to be saying www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 72 the same thing, so to me, this is -- you could -assuming you don't hear anything different on the call, I think you could do this coin by motion. That's all I have to say. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. Well, I'm going to make it unanimous, which makes it much easier. Let's open it up. There are two things that I think the committee would like to discuss, and I think the first thing which goes to all three of the coins is if we do the denomination as edge-lettering, so I would like to address that to whoever would like to speak about that. MR. MORAN: Mary, this is Mike. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. MORAN: should do it. Yes, Mike? I just simply think we As far as I'm concerned, the denominations on these commemorative coins is just simple ground clutter. It's meaningless. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: So Mike, are you then saying all three on the edges? MR. MORAN: I'd move all three of them. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 73 CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. URAM: All right. Tom Uram. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. URAM: Yeah. Okay, Tom. I'd like to make a motion to recommend to the committee that all the denominations be edge-lettering and then spell out the denominations as edge-lettered. MR. BERNTEIN: Second from Art Bernstein. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. Tom and Art. MS. WARREN: Jennifer. Madam Chairwoman, this is I believe the liaison may want to speak. He opened his mic. Mr. Vernon? Colonel Vernon? COLONEL VERNON: Oh, just very quickly. I want you all to know that the Purple Heart is the one medal no service member wants to ever receive, but it's the one medal they're most proud of; and you, the committee, the Mint, the designers, have really honored us with these designs and your willingness to listen to our input. Thank you so much. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 74 CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: You're very welcome, Colonel Vernon. So we have a motion in front of us to move all the denominations to edge-lettering and to spell them out as "five dollars," "one dollar," and "half-dollar." All in favor of the motion, say "aye." UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: MR. TUCKER: Dennis. Aye. Madam Chair, this is Should we not have discussion first? CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: We discussed it. Tom -- are you not voting for it? MR. URAM. No. I -- that was Dennis. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. TUCKER: Yeah. I know. Madam Chair, this is Dennis. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: I was clarifying to Dennis -MR. TUCKER: Yes. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: -- saying that Tom had made the motion, and Art seconded it. on that motion. So we voted And so -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 75 MR. TUCKER: Dennis again. I apologize. This is I did not hear the call for discussion. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: I said we had two things to discuss, and the first thing that we were going to discuss was the placement of the denomination on the edge of each coin in the set. And Mike spoke first, Tom spoke second and made a motion, and Art seconded that motion. Do you have anything to add? MR. TUCKER: Yes. Thank you. This is Dennis Tucker. I understand the temptation to move elements to the -- to the edge of the coin. We do have a lot that's mandated by the legislation that we need to fit on, you know, onto these coins. The first thing I think of though is one of the failures of the American Arts' gold medallions in the early 1980s. Those medallions didn't sell for a number of reasons, but one of those reasons was because they had no denomination on them. They weren't legal tender coins, so of course they wouldn't have a denomination, but on the international market in particular, that www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 76 really weakened their appeal. I think there's something very traditional and very strong about having the legal tender aspect of an American coin boldly shown on the coin. So I -- I think that we -- I like the idea of spelling them out, "one dollar" rather than the dollar sign and the numeral 1, for example. But I would rather see some other design elements moved to the edge if we're doing that simply to make space. Otherwise, I would rather have the denominations moved -- staying on the reverse but moving them into more appropriate positions, as we did have some discussion. Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Is there any further discussion on Dennis' comments? We do have a motion that's open. DR. BROWN: Madam Chair, this is Lawrence Brown. I'd ask that the motion can be restated. MR. URAM: The motion would be to have all three denominations placed on the edge regarding www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 77 where they are in the field now, and to have them spelled out. And if we start redesigning the whole thing, we're going with design by committee, and these are just too good to do that. anything beyond that. I wouldn't touch So that my motion will stay -- will stay that, just having the denominations moved to the edge-lettering, spelled out, same as what it was. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MS. WARREN: Jennifer. And Art -- Madam Chairwoman, this is You may want to call on Ron and Joe just to get any clarifications for this motion before you guys vote. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. Ron, are we giving you headaches over this? MR. HARRIGAL: Mary, yeah. Yeah. This is Ron. We put the, you know, denomination and inscriptions on the edge of the golden dollar because it's in the legislation. It does add cost, and it is something we don't prefer to do. It reduces efficiency and adds costs, so if you do -- if we do go down this path, these coins will sell -- these coins www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 78 will cost more than other commemoratives that would have it on the face of the coin in a standard reeded collar. I just want to make that point. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. Colonel Vernon, do you understand that this could bring less money to -- as liaison to your cause if we put the denomination on the edge? MR. URAM: would do that. Mary, I don't think that That would raise the price. I don't think that would affect the stakeholder. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Well, the Mint has to recover their costs, so -MR. URAM: Yeah. That's right. They would be higher than -- say the $85 now might be, what, 87 or 89 instead, but the stakeholders might be the same. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. Colonel Vernon, you were about to say something? COLONEL VERNON: Yeah. So the only thing I would say is, we clearly want the most proceeds because it allows us to support these Purple www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 79 Heart heroes. But the coin-collecting community, what we're interested in is what the coin collectors think in terms of collectability. So you might -- you might have a coin that costs a little more, but more will be sold. So that's my question to the committee, is we want to ensure the design not only tell the story, which these have done, but they also are done in a way that will result in sales. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Understood, Colonel Vernon. Any further discussion? MR. MORAN: Mary, this is Mike Moran. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Okay. Let me clarify on Tom's comment about the commemorative coin surcharge so that everybody understands it. It's fixed by law as to what the sponsor receives from it subject to recovery of Mint costs. So assuming that this is a popular item, and it sells the maximum amount or any other amount, as long as it -- the proceeds cover the cost, they'll get their fixed surcharge per coin. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you, Mike. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 80 Is that all right with you, Ron? MR. HARRIGAL: You know, my point being is that we try to maximize the proceeds on that, and you know, who's to say what the collectors would prefer, with it on the edge or with it on the face? I do know that we have had some negative feedback on the dollar coins, the golden dollars, because the date's not on it, and we're doing privy marks on it to sort of give that -- that impression that every year, it changes. thing. We have different privy marks, that type of So we have reacted in that fashion. The denomination thing, of course, you know, that's up to you folks to decide whether you think that that's a wise choice or not. But, you know, the stated points that the golden dollar has it in the legislation, the tooling is more difficult to make. You know, we have a separate process for the ones that are made in format versus the uncirculated and format itself, so, you know, that's -- those are just all the points out there I'd like to make. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Exactly. Thank www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 81 you so much. And before we vote on this motion, I would like to ask sort of a side technical question. The next thing that we're going to be talking about is the potential colorization of either the silver or the clad. If we vote on colorization as a positive for either one of those coins, does that affect the denomination on the edge at all? the coloration is applied. I'm not sure where At the very end of the process, or whatever. MR. HARRIGAL: This is Ron again. The colorization is done after the coin is made, so that doesn't -CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. HARRIGAL: Okay. That will have no impact on the process. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: All right. Okay. Thank you. So we have Tom's motion to -- which Art seconded. MR. URAM: To recommend. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: To recommend that the denomination be spelled out on the gold five www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 82 dollar, the silver one dollar, and the clad halfdollar, and we put on the edge of the coin. MS. WARREN: Chairwoman. I'm sorry, Madam This is Jennifer Warren. One thing just came up from our sales and marketing that they wanted me to highlight. Anne Bailey [ph], are you on the call? I guess she can't speak. She just wanted to make sure that it's stated that a higher price does tend to impact sales, particularly if similar to a similar coin, another commemorative in the same year. higher price. So it can still impact sales with a So just letting you know that. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. Thank you, Jennifer. And thank you, Anne, for bringing that up to us. So as I said, we still have this motion that we need to vote on. So all in favor of Tom's motion to use edge-lettering to spell out the denomination on all three coins -MS. BIRDSONG: Madam Chair, this is www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 83 Betty Birdsong. Dr. Kotlowski has asked that you do a roll call vote on the motion. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Certainly. Thank you. All right. I'd like to start with Dennis on Tom's motion. MR. TUCKER: No. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. Lawrence Brown. DR. BROWN: No. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Yes. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. URAM: Tom Uram. Yes. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MS. SALMON: Robin Salmon. No. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. GILL: Mike Moran. Sam Gill. Yes. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: DR. KOTLOWSKI: No. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: DR. VAN ALFEN: Dean Kotlowski. Peter van Alfen. No. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 84 CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. BERNSTEIN: Yes. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: Art Bernstein. Donald Scarinci. The coin is timeless. Yes. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Mary Lannin, yes. One, two, three, four, five, six. The motion passes six to five. MR. TUCKER: Madam Chairman, Dennis. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. TUCKER: Yes, Dennis? May I make a motion in the event that Secretary Yellen does not agree with us, can we provide a backup plan, you know, moving "halfdollar" along the arc of the reverse and moving "one dollar" underneath the nurse and soldier, as we discussed? CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: I think that I will leave that up to the Mint and to Secretary Yellen, and we will address that if she has a problem with that. MR. TUCKER: approach this? Is that the best way to We are an advisory committee. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I think Meeting June 16, 2021 85 we should give an option there. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Well, I think that in the minutes, I will discuss how close this vote was, and that in the letter that I write to Secretary Yellen, that option will be made. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. URAM: Madam, Tom Uram. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. URAM: Okay. Yes, Tom? I'd like to make the motion that we accept the pairing of number 01 and 02, make the pair for the clad half-dollar by acclimation, and then we could still turn in our score for the merit recognition. We have not voted on the half, I don't believe. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: No, we have not. So -MR. MORAN: Mary, this is Mike Moran, and I'll second. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. So Tom and Mike, acclimation. All in favor? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 86 MR. URAM: mean, it's your call. Or you could do it -- I You could do a roll call, but versus turning it in on the sheets for Greg. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: I think we could just do a voice vote. MR. URAM: That will be good. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Because I didn't hear any of us talking much about anything else other than Clad Pair number 01. All right, Tom? I'm sorry, Greg. MR. WEINMAN: What? I'm saying you're welcome to take a voice vote and see if you have any objection when the vote's done. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. I'd like to take a voice vote on Clad Pair number 01 be the coin we recommend to the Secretary of the Treasury. All in favor, say "aye." UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Aye. Any opposed? [No audible response.] CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: The vote passes unanimously, and it's Clad Pair number 01. Thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 87 MR. URAM: Tom Uram again. And Madam Chair, it's We should turn in our sheets for merit recognition also. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. URAM: Sure. Somewhere along the trail today. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: 11:54. All right. It is We are scheduled to be back here at 1:40 p.m. to begin our afternoon American Womens Quarter program, and let's turn in the merit sheets to Greg, and if you don't have to sign off, it might make it easier on Jennifer. MS. WARREN: And if you do, please come on about 1:30 just so we can make sure that everybody is able to speak again. So far, we've been able to do that. And thank you to the Colonel for joining us on this. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Absolutely. Thank you, Colonel Vernon. COLONEL VERNON: I appreciate you all. Thank you for letting me join. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 88 CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: COLONEL VERNON: MR. WEINMAN: Okay. Bye-bye. Bye. Are we in recess? CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: We are in recess. (Off the record.) CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. Before we move to the next order of business, I will take a quick roll call of the CCAC members. Please respond "present" when I call your name. Peter van Alfen. DR. VAN ALFEN: Present. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. BERNSTEIN: Present. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: DR. BROWN: Sam Gill. Present. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: DR. KOTLOWSKI: Dean Kotlowski. Present. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Lawrence Brown. Present. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. GILL: Art Bernstein. Mike Moran. Present. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Robin Salmon. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 89 MS. SALMON: Present. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: Present. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. URAM: Don Scarinci. Tom Uram. Present. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: And I'm Mary Lannin, and I'm chair of the CCAC, and before we begin the 2022 American Women Quarters candidate designs and the introduction of one of our liaisons, I would be remiss if we didn't have something on the record about the potential colorization of one of the coins from the Purple Heart Commemorative Coin Program that we finished before lunch. And I'd like to call on Tom for his thoughts. MR. URAM: Yeah. Thanks, Madam Chair. We kind of talked about the Mint, that there is a possibility of colorization. After the committee has decided all three designs, my thought was that the most appropriate if we are going to use color, if the Mint decides to use color, that it would be placed on the -- or used on the silver dollar. That seems to be the one that has the most www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 90 ability to really have an impact. And the other designs certainly -- I don't think we want to do anything with the half. And gold and color, it's -- some of the gold and color ones that I already have, you know, aren't as well, but I think it would play well only on the silver dollar in this case. So I just thought maybe we should have something on the record if the committee's in agreement. Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Tom. Thank you so much, And as I said, it was presented to us that it might be a possibility. Would anybody else like to join in this discussion before we go on to the American Women Quarters? MR. MORAN: Mary, this is Mike Moran. I just have one call -- question. What's the cost of colorization? CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: That would be Ron, I believe. MR. HARRIGAL: We're still evaluating that. Yeah. This is Ron. I don't want to quote www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 91 anything right now. It really depends on quantity. And, you know, we did on the Basketball Hall of Fame coin halves, there was a learning curve there, and we are establishing what the cost would be right now, but, you know, for me to speculate would -- would possibly not be very accurate at this point. DR. BROWN: Mary, this is Lawrence Brown. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: DR. BROWN: Yes, Dr. Brown. I would like to see if we can, I don't know if it's appropriate to have a motion or a recommendation. Nothing that would certainly force anybody's hands, but I like Tom's suggestion about where would be the most appropriate, and that, you know, if the Mint feels that they can do it within whatever constraints they have, I think that's something that -- or certainly accepting that I would embrace. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you, Dr. Brown. MR. URAM: right. Dr. Brown, that's exactly I think that's where the best place to be with www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 92 it would be. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. Greg, I would like to check and see if Tom made a motion and Dr. Brown seconded it, and if we had any friendly amendments that we would add. Since we don't know that the Mint is going to do this, is it a good idea if we do this? Or should we just leave it for the record that we discussed it? MR. WEINMAN: I think ultimately, this is going to be a Mint decision, and the record always speaks for itself. this. You don’t need to make a motion on If it's something that you just want to lift up and emphasize, you can do it as a motion. But otherwise, you're having a discussion right now, you're reaching some consensus in your discussion. You can -- that can be reflected in the minutes or your letter. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. Thank you. So Tom, do you feel like making a motion just to make it more serious? MR. URAM: It's up to the committee. I'll be happy to make a motion. But I think Greg's www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 93 right. It kind of speaks for itself. But maybe the -- maybe so to make it more definitive, I suppose. So my motion then would be that if the Mint, the United States Mint, would decide to colorize the Purple Heart Commemorative Coin series, that it would only do so on the silver dollar. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: And I need a second. MR. URAM: The consideration would be only towards the silver dollar. DR. BROWN: Lawrence Brown seconding. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay, Dr. Brown. All those in favor of that motion, say "aye." UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Aye. Any opposed? [No audible response.] CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: So the motion to recommend passes. All right. So I thank you, Ms. Kiehl, for letting us get that little bit of business out of the way. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 94 Why don't we move forward and leave the floor to April? MS. STAFFORD: Thank you so much. Here's a little bit of background on the American Women Quarters Program. Public Law 116-330, the Circulating Collectible Coin Redesign Act of 2020, requires the Secretary of the Treasury to issue up to five quarter dollars each year emblematic of prominent American women beginning 2022 and continuing through 2025. The women to be featured on these quarters are selected in accordance with a selection process approved by the Secretary and in consultation with the Smithsonian Institution's American Women's History Initiative, the National Women's History Museum, and the Bipartisan Women's Caucus. The United States Mint intends to honor five women in each year of the program, as authorized by the legislation. To meet its manufacturing schedule, the Mint presented designs for two of the five 2022 honorees at the March meeting and is presenting the remaining three at this meeting. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 95 And Madam Chair, I'm just going to go back and make sure you have the proper name of our Smithsonian counterpart. It's actually the Smithsonian American Women's History Initiative, just to have that on the record. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MS. STAFFORD: Thank you so much. So the reverse designs for this program "shall be emblematic of the accomplishments and contributions of one prominent woman of the United States and may include contributions to the United States in a wide spectrum of accomplishments and fields, including but not limited to suffrage, civil rights, abolition, government, humanities, science, space, and arts, and should honor women from ethnically, racially, and geographically diverse backgrounds." The 2022 reverse designs are presented in alphabetic order by honoree name, and do not necessarily reflect the order of release. The candidate designs have all been reviewed by experts at the Smithsonian and the National Women's History Museum, as well as family members or family www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 96 representatives of the honorees. Inscriptions on the reverse designs include "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA," "E PLURUBIS UNUM," and "TWENTY-FIVE CENTS," "QUARTER DOLLAR," OR "25 cents" written out numerically. While the obverse design will remain a portrait of George Washington, a new obverse portrait will replace the current George Washington crossing the Delaware design. The new design will remain on the obverse of the quarter throughout the entire American Women Quarters Program. So first up, we have candidate design honoring Wilma Mankiller. In 1985, Wilma Mankiller became the first female principal chief of the Cherokee Nation. She sought to improve the nation's health care, education system, and government. After leaving office, Mankiller remained an activist for Native American and women's rights until her death in April 2010. She was honored with many local, state, and national awards, including the nation's highest civilian honor, the Presidential Medal of Freedom, in 1998. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 97 All designs in this portfolio include the additional inscription "WILMA MANILLER." With us today is Kristina Kiehl, a close friend of Wilma Mankiller, and representative of her estate. Ms. Kiehl, thank you so much for joining us today. Would you like to say a few words to the committee? MS. KIEHL: Yes. Thank you. Thank you to the Mint and to the artists. There is a tendency to think of the Indians and teepees and buckskin which is not at all the Cherokee way, and what they have done -- and we have worked with the team beautifully, they've been terrific. They captured Wilma's power, dignity, and the symbols that are meaningful to not only to Cherokees specifically, men with the clay beads, the diamond symbol on the shawl, and the Cherokee star which represents both of the Cherokee Nations, the Eastern Band and the Oklahoma Cherokees, and we are grateful and honored, and I'm here with Charlie Soap, Wilma's widower. So I -- we are thrilled with the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 98 design that we believe has been recommended and we hope that you all agree. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you, Ms. Kiehl. And the design Ms. Kiehl is referring to is in fact our first candidate design under consideration, so we will move to that. that here. You can see Design 01B depicts Wilma Mankiller with a resolute gaze to the future. The wind is at her back, and she is wrapped in a traditional shawl. To her left is the seven-pointed star of the Cherokee Nation. The additional inscriptions are "PRINCIPAL CHIEF" and "CHEROKEE NATION," which is written in the Cherokee language. Again, this is the preferred design of Wilma Mankiller's representatives, and I should also note that these designs have been viewed by the Cherokee Nation, and they weighed in, and it was actually their recommendation to include the Cherokee language. Moving on to design 02, and design 05. Okay. Madam Chair, those are the options for the Wilma Mankiller quarter dollar. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 99 MS. WARREN: Madam Chairwoman, you have to unmute yourself. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: that. I'm so bad at Sorry. I'd like to thank the artists for such terrific examples to look at, but I agree with number 01B, but I want to give everyone else a chance to talk before I do. So I'd like to call on Peter van Alfen first. DR. VAN ALFEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. Peter van Alfen. I think of the three options, 01B is certainly the strongest. It's attractive. like the portrait; I like the composition. I really I also like the inclusion of the Cherokee script there, so I'm fully behind supporting this as the selection. Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you so much. Art Bernstein, please. MR. BERNSTEIN: I echo everything Peter said. This is Art Bernstein. I would also add I www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 100 found the movement across the design in her hair and the shawl, I thought that was very artistic. Thank you. MS. KIEHL: I agree completely. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you, Art. Dr. Lawrence Brown. DR. BROWN: Good afternoon. This is Lawrence Brown. Thank you, Madam Chair, for this opportunity to in fact share very briefly that I concur with my colleagues who went before me. I think 01B would be an excellent representation for this in fact wonderful person who's done great things in her life. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you, Dr. Brown. Sam Gill, please. MR. GILL: I love 01B. Thank you, Madam Chair. I think it's just a beautiful, beautiful portrait, and I think it's going to make a very, very handsome coin. Thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 101 CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you. Dean Kotlowski. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Thank you, Madam Chair. Ms. Kiehl, I have a personal connection here. I'm working on a book on Native American policy in the late 20th century, and I've looked at Wilma Mankiller's papers at the University of Oklahoma, and I thoroughly concur with the choice of 01B for the obverse design -- the reverse design of this coin. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you. Mike Moran. MR. MORAN: Mike Moran here. I want to say one thing before I make my choice, and that is that I'm fully aware of the reason for the Eastern and Western wings of the Cherokee Nation, and I think Wilma Mankiller being honored with a quarter is very, very appropriate. I'm a 01B kind of person here. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you, Mike. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 102 Robin Salmon. MS. SALMON: Thank you. This is Robin Salmon. 01B was my choice from the very beginning, although all of the designs were great. From the artistic standpoint, it has movement, the composition is wonderful. It's a nice portrait. And it has all the elements that it needs to have to tell the story, so 01B is my choice. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thanks, Robin. Donald Scarinci. MR. SCARINCI: Yeah. There's only three designs so I don't -- can you hear me? CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: Yes. Yeah. There's only three designs so I don't really have anything to say. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: All right. Dennis Tucker, please. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you, Ms. Kiehl, for your guidance on this project. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 103 Reverse 01B is a beautiful, strong portrait of Wilma Mankiller. I like the wind at her back, and as Art and Robin have pointed out, it's a nice touch and one that elevates this from a traditional profile into a scene with forward motion. 01B has my strong support. MS. KIEHL: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thanks, Dennis. Tom Uram, please. MR. URAM: I concur as well with 01B. Thank you, Madam Chair, and I certainly like all of the reasons that my colleagues have pointed out, and I particularly like the comment on how the vision looks, looking forward, not to mention the wind and details, but the objects in particular really have really good forward-looking point to them, so 01B will have all my votes. Thank you, ma'am. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you so much. And I think I'm correct in assuming that the Cherokee is a matriarchal society? Correct me if I'm wrong, Ms. Kiehl, or -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 104 MS. KIEHL: Yes. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you. So I think it's incredibly appropriate that Wilma Mankiller is our choice for this coin. the Cherokee syllabary. I like the inclusion of This will be our second coin that we've used that particular alphabet on, and I'm giving all of my points to 01B. Do you have anything else to say about Wilma Mankiller or the designs that we have, Ms. Kiehl, or Mr. Soap? MS. KIEHL: doing this. We're thrilled that you're It's been a great process. And thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: It's going to be a beautiful coin. Okay. Joe and Ron, is this anything that you want to talk about with us? This particular design? MR. HARRIGAL: This is Ron. I'll defer to Joe on it. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. MENNA: All right. Thank you, Ron. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 105 Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Ron. I just want to clear up a few things. Not that anyone has a question, but the grey in the background is actually field. It's going to pop out. That will be field. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. MENNA: Okay. The areas that look like field underneath the tassels, that will be sculpted. That will be raised a bit because we can't have field in those spots. And the same thing under the wisps of her hair. So that's all. Just want to, you know, let you know. Don't want to get any false expectations. That's all. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Little housekeeping details, right? MR. MENNA: Yes. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. Thank you so much. Anyone on the committee have any other questions about this before we vote? MR. URAM: Madam Chair, I'd like to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 106 make a motion that we take a roll -- not a roll call, but just a voice vote regarding this coin. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. I need a second, I think. DR. KOTLOWSKI: This is Dean Kotlowski, and I second. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: seconds Tom. Okay. Dean All right. All in favor -UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Aye. Okay. There are no nay's, I can confidently predict that. All right. I think we have our first quarter done, and it's a really stylish one. And I'd like to thank Ms. Kiehl and Mr. Soap very much for joining us. MS. KIEHL: Thank you. Thanks for doing this. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: All right. I can hardly wait till you get it. All right. We are now going on with our second American Women quarter dollar. And I would like to introduce April again, and we're going to talk www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 107 about Adelina Otero-Warren, and we're looking at the designs. April. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you. Adelina Otero-Warren, the first Hispanic woman to run for U.S. Congress and the first female superintendent of public schools in Santa Fe, was a leader in New Mexico's woman's suffrage movement. She emphasized the necessity of using Spanish language in the suffrage fight to reach Hispanic women and spearheaded the lobbying effort to ratify the 19th Amendment in New Mexico. She strove to improve education for all New Mexicans, working especially to advance bicultural education and to preserve cultural practices among the state's Hispanic and Native American communities. All designs in this portfolio include the additional inscription "ADELINA OTERO-WARREN," and I am pleased that we have family members of Adelina Otero-Warren with us today on the phone. should have Consuelo Althouse, Katie Peters, and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 We Meeting June 16, 2021 108 Nancy Kenney. Would you like to say a few words to the committee? MS. KENNEY: Can you hear me? This is Nancy Kenney speaking. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MS. STAFFORD: MS. KENNEY: Yes, we can. Yes, we can. Hi. I'm Nancy Kenney, and I'm representing our family, and we are absolutely very excited about this project and are very pleased with the designs that you have revealed to us on the most -- you know, it's been a challenge in a sense, reviewing and thinking about all of Nina's accomplishments, but I think that we have fully, you know, embraced her -- her magnificence and the wonderful opportunity this is to honor that. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Well, thank you so much, Ms. Kennedy [sic]. Do any other members of your family wish to make any comments? MS. KENNEY: Consi [ph], Katie, are you there? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 109 You know -CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: add their comments at the end. MS. WARREN: They could maybe How's that? Actually, I think Consuelo is on. If you want to go ahead, you can talk. MS. ALTHOUSE: Hi. Sure. This is Consuelo. Yes. I just wanted to second that it's been a wonderful process. We love all the designs. I think we recommended maybe the fourth for some of our family reasons, but we're open and interested in what the committee has to say and any input. We would be happy with any design, but the fourth was one that we spoke about. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: So thank you. Okay. Thank you so much for joining us, Consuelo. So April, would you like to go through the designs? MS. WARREN: Sorry. This is Jen. Ms. Peters is also on. I don't know. Ms. Peters, you looked like you were trying to come in. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 110 CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: I can't see people in this format, who's on and who's off. Ms. Peters? MS. WARREN: You might be still muted. You have to hit the microphone, so it doesn't have the X in it. Nope. Still. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Or if you're on your phone, I think it's star 6. MS. WARREN: She's on her computer. I think one of her family members is trying to help her hit the mute button. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MS. WARREN: Okay. There you are. You're open. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MS. PETERS: Okay. There I am. I needed a next generation to help me. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MS. PETERS: We all do. I just want to thank the Mint and the artists and the people who looked to see the importance of what Nina Otero-Warren did and to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 111 give her this great honor. Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you so much for joining us, Ms. Peters. All right. I'm going to turn it over to April, and she's going to go through the designs with the committee and the family. MS. STAFFORD: We'll start with design 01. Thank you, Madam Chair. And design 02, 02A, and design 03. Design 03 features an image of Adelina Otero-Warren on the left, flanked by three Yucca blossoms, New Mexico's state flower. The additional inscription is "EL VOTO PARA LAS MUJERES," or, "The Vote for Women." This is the preferred design identified by the family. They noted a suggestion that the Yucca flowers by further defined, maybe made a little bit larger, and asked if it were possible for her nickname "Nina" to be added to the design. We did actually reach out to our chief engraver, Joe Menna, with those items, so if the committee would like feedback on that, I'm sure he'll www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 112 be more than happy to comment on both of those. And Madam Chair, those are the options for this quarter. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you so very much, April. I'd like to begin with Dean Kotlowski, please, if he's still with us. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Yes, I am. Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to begin with a question for the liaisons, and I hope it doesn't count against my time. My question is very simple here. Do any of the family members have any photographs or have seen any photographs or pictures or images of Adelina Otero-Warren wearing the suffragist sash and the uniform, if you want to call it a uniform, that we see in 02 and 02A? Because I Googled, and I couldn't find any, and I'm just looking at trying to get an accurate, as accurate as possible, representation of her. Do you have any insight or any information there at all? CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Nancy? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 113 MS. KENNEY: This is Nancy Kenney speaking, and I do not believe I've ever seen her with the sash on. Though, do you think, Katie? Have you seen -MS. PETERS: No, but addressing the other part of the question, this appears to be the most accurate representation of her face. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you, Ms. Peters. DR. KOTLOWSKI: good to know. Thank you. That's very I'm going to weigh that as well. interested in 02 and 02A. I was I had a little bit of difficulty here, because I think that there's a cluster of different symbols and iconography, and even if her face is very accurate, she seems to be competing with that, her image with these other symbols and iconography, and I was wondering if showing her wearing clothing that -- that she didn't actually wear, we might be creating an imagined view of her. There's a benefit to doing that, but there's also a sense that -- that can be problematic. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 114 So I liked really number 01 quite a bit. I liked the youthful portrait of her. I would be interested if anyone else felt that way. I'm perfectly happy to support number 03. I want to raise just a couple of issues here. The lettering here seems to be Art Deco and there's no beginning date for Art Deco, but that conference in Paris kind of launched that was in 1926, and again, this would be image 03, "EL VOTO PARA LAS MUJERES," and, you know, that would be after 1920 when the suffrage amendment was passed, and I was just wondering that. I'm going to say something here, and I mean this devil's advocate and a little in a jocular fashion, so don't take it too seriously. wondering about the flowers. flowers at all. I'm I'm not an enemy of But, you know, they're put there for, they say because it's the New Mexico state flower. I think we sometimes get a little carried away with state pride. That's point number 1. Point number 2 is that I'm not sure we're doing flowers with the other women who are being www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 115 honored. And point number 3, I'm wondering if we're maybe sliding into a little bit of -- a little bit of gender stereotyping of pairing women and flowers. I don't think anybody thought of putting the Ohio state flower on the Larry Doby Congressional Gold Medal, and I mean that, again, in a somewhat freethinking way. seriously. Don't take these comments too Just something to think about and consider. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thanks, Dean. Peter van Alfen, please. DR. VAN ALFEN: All right. Thank you, Madam Chair. I am happy to support number 03 as the reverse for this. I really did like the font quite a bit in fact, for the "EL VOTO PARA LAS MUJERES" on the reverse. Dean's concern about this being anachronistic, I'm sure I could find some examples of this, or a similar type of font used before the 1925/26 Art Deco exhibition in Paris, so I'm not sure www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 116 if it is anachronistic, but I think it works well. like the portraits. I And I also am receptive to Dean's concerns about the flowers as well. I mean, they do balance the lower portion of the field there, but whether or not they're, you know, a necessity in terms of just the symbolism, you know, is something, you know, we might want to consider. But I'm happy to support this reverse. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thanks, Peter. Mike Moran. Michael? MR. MORAN: Yes. I'm here. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Okay. My arrow was somewhere else. I'm fine with number 03. I think the family's made a good choice, and that's all I need to say. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Tom Moran. everybody. Tom. Thank you. I'm conflating Thomas Uram. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 117 MR. URAM: Thank you, Madam Chair. I concur with number 03 in that it's a very nice design, and I think the planchet size, it's going to be very well received. So that's how I'm going to vote. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you. Robin Salmon. MS. SALMON: This is Robin Salmon. First, for the record, Art Deco did exist before mid-1920s, so we don't need to worry about that. Number 03 was my choice. portrait. I liked the font. I liked the And it's a -- it's a strong portrayal of a strong woman, and my vote goes there. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you so much, Robin, and thanks for the check on the Art Deco font. Sam Gill. MR. GILL: Thank you, Mary. I concur with number 03 as well. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 It's Meeting June 16, 2021 118 going to make a very, very handsome coin, and for a very, very lovely lady, and I think that the flowers are just fine. She spent her life in New Mexico, and I think that's actually a good thing. So number 03 it is for me. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you so much. Dennis Tucker. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you, Ms. Althouse, Ms. Peters, and Ms. Kenney, for your guidance on this program. I like the portrait in reverse 03. I think it shows the quiet strength and non-anxious presence that Ms. Otero-Warren needed to marshal in order to fight for education, literacy, the right to vote, and other reforms. I also like the fact that it is bilingual, and boldly so. I can't think of very many U.S. coins that have used Spanish in this way. So a very nice design, and it has my full support. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thanks, Dennis. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 119 Dr. Brown. DR. BROWN: Thank you, Madam Chair. This is Lawrence Brown. And first and foremost, I would really love to thank the liaisons because I am sure that she couldn't be doing the things that she has done without your support. So I want to thank you for your contribution to what she's done and what this has meant for this nation. I would -- I'm surely going to vote for reverse 03. My only recommendation is the fact that I would want to lean in the direction of including "Nina," if that means that we have to do away with the flowers, because I think it has significance particularly for this part of America to be able to have that way in which her family have recognized her. I think that would be a strong recommendation, a strong vote, that we continue to support the cultures of many of the populations that we have in the U.S.A. Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you so much, Dr. Brown. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 120 Art? MR. BERNSTSEIN: This is Art Bernstein, and I hear a consensus building for number 03, but I -- I did want to put in a good word for design 02. I was very attracted to the way the subjects were looking over the horizon, looking forward. It just -- it just seemed like a powerful gaze that came off the coin for me. I also liked the fact that it covered more information about Ms. Otero-Warren. It mentioned that she was an educator, which I don't see in design 03, and I thought that seemed like a very important part of her life, that it was worth mentioning; and it did include her name, Nina, so just a positive comment about 02, but I understand why everyone likes design 03. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thanks so much, Art. Okay. So I'm going to weigh in, and I'm going to choose number 03 as well, but I would like to make a suggestion, and I'll open it up for discussion. We could remove one or two of the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 121 blossoms and slip the name "Otero-Warren" down in that spot and put "Nina" in quotation marks between "Adelina" and "Otero-Warren" if we got rid of a couple of the blossoms. And so that would be my recommendation. Would anybody else like to comment on that? DR. KOTLOWSKI: This is Dean Kotlowski. I would definitely support that, Mary, and if you were to make a motion or if you want me to make the motion and have someone second it, I would be willing to do that. Either way. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Any further discussion on the flowers? DR. VAN ALFEN: MS. WARREN: Yes. Madam Chair -- DR. VAN ALFEN: This is Peter van Alfen. Before we make a motion on this, I'd like to hear what either Joe or -- Joe recommends in terms of including the nickname "Nina." MR. MENNA: Thank you, Peter. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 122 Madam Chair, we talked about this at length, and so I -- and I feel adamant that this design as it is is the best version that is possible, frankly. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. MENNA: All right. The addition of the text "Nina" would remove the flowers. an imbalance, a visual imbalance. It's going to create Her arm would be looking like it's floating in space. You could draw like a horizontal, which could be misread as an exergue, you know, behind her elbow to indicate the edge of a table, but then you're going to have these two strong horizontals, and it kind of gives the appearance of a flag or something that is not meant to be. If you were to remove any of the other text or try and squeeze it around, it would just become awkward. I think the flowers -- I mean, I look at designs kind of like a house of cards, some of them. I don't mean in terms of fragility, but I mean in terms of sometimes when you pull one element, the rest of it could fall apart, and I think that's what doing the removal of the flowers would do in this case. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I'm Meeting June 16, 2021 123 not saying it's a fragile design. wonderful design. I think it's a But I think it would suffer greatly if it was altered in any way. I think everything is very carefully calculated here. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. Thanks, Joe. MR. MENNA: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: I will withdraw my idea et al. Would anybody else like to make a motion? Or discuss anything? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You mean regarding the Nina Otero -- Adelina "Nina" OteroWarren instead? CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: It sounds, according to the Chief Engraver, that it is best to leave the design as is, and we will not be able to put her nickname, "Nina" in number 03. And this is your favorite design. UNIDENTFIED SPEAKER: DR. BROWN: Okay. Madam Chair, this is Lawrence Brown. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 124 CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. Yes, Lawrence. DR. BROWN: I do appreciate Joe's comments, and Lord knows, in fact we rely upon him to be able tao do the magic that the Mint does and is really phenomenal. I just wish that if we could possibly include this, this nickname that is not uncommon in this population of the United States. And since we're talking about phenomenal women, I think that if it were possible -- and I'd leave it up to the Mint to figure it out, but it just seems to me that we are losing something by not including that nickname. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Well, see, I think that Joe just told us it's -- we really shouldn't. should leave it as-is. We And the only other option would be to remove her first name and put the nickname in, "Nina Otero-Warren." DR. BROWN: Chair. And I appreciate it, Madam Please, I don't mean to be argumentative. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Yeah. No, no, no. I can understand what Joe's saying here about the balance and then having to add this line that would www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 125 be -- you know, maybe she's resting her hands on a desk, and that would make it less special, I think. MS. WARREN: Jennifer. something. Madam Chair, this is I think some of the liaisons wanted to say I saw them pop back up. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. Because I can't see them. MS. WARREN: So they might want to. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MS. WARREN: So go ahead. Maybe not. I saw Ms. Peters undid her mic, and I just wanted to check. Ms. Peters, did you want to say something? MS. PETERS: At the chance of risking a disagreement with my sister, I really think that "Nina" is not necessary. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you. Any other comments from the family? MS. KENNEY: Well, this is Nancy Kenney. And her biography is entitled "Nina Otero-Warren of Santa Fe." Adelina isn't www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 126 mentioned on the cover of her book. That may mean nothing, or it might mean something, just to add to the mix and the thoughts. Obviously, at the risk of disagreeing with my sister, is to say "Nina Otero-Warren" would be my preference. But that -- it's -- I'm happy either way. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: with that. I would concur Nina Otero-Warren would be great. MS. ALTHOUSE: But -- This is Consuelo. I would also like to concur that Nina Otero-Warren would be my preference, but I'd go with my mom and my auntie on this one. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. The women have spoken. Joe, is that -- does that do anything to the balance? MR. MENNA: hypocritical, Madam Chair. No. I don't want to sound That will work fine. I mean, you know, justify Nina Otero, it will be just fine. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: All right. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 And Meeting June 16, 2021 127 Nina, but without quotation marks. MR. MENNA: Yes. DR. VAN ALFEN: Peter van Alfen. Just Nina. Madam Chair, this is I just want to ask if there is any legal hindrance to using nickname instead of the given name on the quarter? MR. WEINMAN: No. This is Greg. There's no -- no. There's nothing in the statute that requires us to use any legal name as opposed to a nickname. It is how the honoree, the prominent woman, was known during her time. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: And it seems that Greg would have to go back to the three women that are on the call with us right now, and they just agreed it's Nina. All right. your input. feel free. Well, thank you so much for If anybody would like to make a motion, If not, we should turn our score sheets into Greg. MR. URAM: Madam Chair, Tom Uram. I'd like to just make a motion that we vote by acclimation. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 128 DR. BROWN: And this is Lawrence Brown. I'd like to second that motion. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. All in favor that we use AOW-03 as our recommendation with the substitution of the word "Nina," name Nina, for Adelina, say "aye." UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Aye. Any opposing votes? [No audible response.] CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you. The motion passes unanimously. And thank you, ladies, for joining us and seeing how this all works. I think that you're going to have an absolutely great coin. MS. PETERS: You were all very impressive; and thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: All right. Thank you, Katie. Moving right along here. Okay, April. I'm going to toss it back to you for our final coin of the day. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 129 Appearing in over 60 movies throughout her career, Anna May Wong was the first Chinese American film star in Hollywood. In addition to her films, she had roles in silent films, television, and stage. For many years, she auditioned for leading roles, often being cast only in supporting or stereotypical roles. She opened her own production studio to be able to make films about her culture, and Wong was cast as a lead in one of the first movies made in Technicolor. Her most famous film, "Shanghai Express," was released in 1932. Through her work, she helped promote a more positive image of Chinese Americans to mainstream American audiences during a period of intense racism and discrimination. All designs in the portfolio include the additional inscription, "ANNA MAY WONG." Now, we have extended an invitation to Anna May Wong's niece, Anna Wong, to participate with us today in our discussion. I am not sure if she is with us. Anna Wong, are you there? All right. Madam Chair, if she joins www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 130 us, we can of course go to her, but she did provide us with feedback on this portfolio which I will be happy to share with the committee. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: That's wonderful. Why don't you go through the designs, and tell us what the feedback was? Thank you, April. MS. STAFFORD: All right. So we will start first with design 01. Design 02. Design 03, 03A, 04. Design 05. This design features an image of Anna May Wong in a seated pose. The outer border of the design curls around to form the end of a film strip, referencing her contributions to American cinema. This is one of two preferred designs of the family liaison. Moving on to Design 06, and Design 10. This design features a close-up image of Anna May Wong with her head resting on her hand, illuminated by the bright lights of a marquee. This is the second of two designs preferred by the liaison, but to be fair, the liaison www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 131 did reflect that she is unsure that the marquee lights would read as such on the outer portion of the design. And finally, Design 11. And Madam Chair, that concludes the options for this quarter. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MS. WARREN: Great. Madam Chair, this is Jennifer. She may be caller 21, and it says that her mic is muted, so if that is Ms. Wong, if you hit star 6, it should un-open your -- it should open your line. I just want to make sure that she wasn't trying to speak. Nope. Still muted. So I just wanted to give her a shot. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: All right. Okay. Thank you. Let's begin the discussion. So I assume that Ron and Joe are good with all the designs. MR. MENNA: Madam Chair, can I editorialize for a second? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 132 CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. MENNA: Absolutely. I just want -- can I brag? This is not going out to myself. I just want to say that this performer represents the work of a particular veteran U.S. Mint AIP, whatever, you know, person, and I think you're getting some of the best, best work you may have seen in this program and some of the best designs that I've seen coming out of the Mint in a long time. I'm just really proud to be able to show these to you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thanks, Joe. And we appreciate all the AIP artists and all the Mint artists as well. I know that Dean is kind of time constrained, so I'd like to call on Dean first, if he's still with us. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Yes, I am. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I echo what Joe said. really excellent designs. These were And to compliment the liaison, those were my two favorite designs. I especially like number 05, and of course the way the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 133 film reel curls around. In a way, I looked at it at another angle that it could be in a way the face of a person and their hair curling around as well. And I also liked number 10. I think I like 05 better than 10, and so I'll give most of my points to number 05. But there were some other designs. If you look at number 01, I'm not sure I like the way she's drawn there, but I like the -- the acknowledgement of film where it says, "PRESENTS ANNA MAY WONG." And in a way, I kind of liked, at least at first, number 06. Because again, it seemed like they were putting you in a place where she was being filmed, and those are my comments, Madam Chair. Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thanks, Dean. Dennis. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. And Ms. Wong, if you can hear us or even if you can't, thank you as well. I have to agree with Joe. This is just www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 134 a great portfolio. these designs. I had a lot of fun looking through And on a more serious note, they also brought to mind the Congressional Gold Medal that we worked on for the Chinese American Veterans of World War II, and the fact that those men were volunteering to fight for the nation when the Chinese Exclusion Act was still in effect. That had been passed in the early 1880s, and I think it wasn't until 1943 that the Chinese Exclusion Act was taken off the books. So I think it's wonderful that we have an opportunity to recognize a Chinese American actress and artist. So looking at the designs, first and foremost, number 01 just blew me away. is a great design. "Wow. I think that When I first saw it, I thought, This is a little bit over the top." really, it's -- it's a brilliant design. But I mean, she -- I like the way it evokes the silent film era with her kind of stylized movements, the hand to the head, and the wording is amazing. Nothing like that has ever been done on a United States coin. "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA PRESENTS ANNA MAY WONG IN QUARTER DOLLAR." It's genius. I love number 01. I think www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 135 that's a fantastic design. Number 05 really didn't speak to me at all, so I won't say much about that one. Number 10, I like. I think it's -- you know, it's a nice portrait, it's eye-catching. I do think that the use of the lightbulbs from a theater marquee is effective, and I think that people will get that. So I think that number 10 is a good design as well. But wow. Number 01 just blew me away. I think if you study Anna May Wong's life for any length of time, you can't avoid the following quote from her. She said, "Success is not a jewel that you can purchase and keep for your entire life. On the contrary, the brightest star can fall down at any time and fade away into dust." And thanks to this coin, no matter which design Secretary Yellen chooses, Anna May Wong is guaranteed a jewel that will never fade. Thank you, Ms. Wong. Thank you to the panel. And thank you, Madam Chair. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 136 CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you. Sam Gill, please. MR. GILL: Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to say that Dennis is absolutely right about number 01. It's -- it's extremely clever and very, very interesting. I won't choose it, but I'm -- I -- I found it just to be most interesting. The portraits are very strong, they're lovely. I tend to like number 05. That's because of the reel, the film reel. And I also like number 10 because I think it's elegant. But I guess I'm going to go with number 05 as my first choice with a few points going to 10. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thanks, Sam. Robin. MS. SALMON: This is Robin Salmon. Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, number 01 also attracted me, and "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA PRESENTS ANNA MAY WONG IN www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 137 QUARTER DOLLAR" is -- is unique. That's for sure. I won't vote for it, though. I also liked 03A because it shows her not only as an actor but as a producer and having her own production studio, so I felt that this encapsuled the more complete woman. But then number 05 is very interesting. I wish there was a little bit more of the film strip to really emphasize that. But number 10 focuses on her star power that she's -- she is a major star. And her face is there on the marquee, advertising the film, the coin, the honor, so I think I'm going to put my vote toward number 10. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thanks, Robin. Mike Moran. MR. MORAN: Thank you, Mary. Mike Moran here. Dennis, sometimes you don't sway me. think your points on number 01 were really good, and as a result, I'm going to take another look at that. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I Meeting June 16, 2021 138 When I went through this portfolio myself, I picked 05 first off. I like 10, but I did not feel like that the marquee lights would be very effective on a quarter, as they might be on a medal. But I still think it's good. Nobody's talked about 11 yet. I like her coming out of the star and the star overriding everything else. I just like the way it was presented. But I'll be giving most of my votes to number 05. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you, Mike. Lawrence Brown. DR. BROWN: Good afternoon, Madam Chair. This is Lawrence Brown. I too in fact leaned when I first saw the designs, and again, Joe, I agree with you: This is an excellent portfolio, and please thank the artist on our behalf because this is outstanding. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 139 But I will be giving most of my votes to number 05, although I must confess, Dennis, I really appreciate your comments, and I too had my initial response that number 01 was a little over the top. And I did wonder whether or not we were being -- exaggerating some things when I looked at number 01, but I do admit that it has a beauty that certainly is different than what we've seen on coins, particularly "PRESENTING ANNA MAY WONG IN QUARTER DOLLAR." That's -- that was very innovative. I think that with respect to number 10, I agree with my colleagues that I'm not sure how well that's going to come out on a quarter, particularly being a marquee, so I really wonder about that. But most of my votes will be going to number 05. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you, Dr. Brown. Peter van Alfen. DR. VAN ALFEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. I can only concur that this is a great portfolio. I really enjoyed it. I also very much www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 140 agree with Dennis and Dean that the inscription on number 01 is just genius. I love it. I'm not a fan of the portrait, however. And in terms of number 05, I do like the curling film and do like the portrait. The one aspect of that design, though, that bothers me a little bit is the left arm. There's something about this pose with the left arm disappearing in part out of field there that just seems a little bit unnatural and a little long to me, and that is something, in going back to this design, that I just can't quite get beyond. And I really love 10 too. I think that this is a very strong design, and I think that there's -- we really haven't produced anything quite like this. It's a strong design. It conveys, as one of my colleagues said, her star power. And I'm going to be voting for number 10. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thanks, Peter. Arthur Bernstein. MR. BERNSTEIN: This is Art Bernstein. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 141 And the more I listen to my colleagues, the more confused I get because I'm having a hard time choosing. They really are all fantastic. I am intrigued by the wording on design 01 and that will get some of my votes just because I think it's so extraordinary and so unusual. I did like designs 03 and 04 because they had the camera in there and I hadn't thought about the fact that that portrays her also as a producer, which I now understand and it seems noteworthy. I also thought it gave a sense of time when you looked at that old-fashioned camera. So I'm still working on my ballot here, but those were the things that I noticed. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thanks, Art. Tom Uram. MR. URAM: Thank you, Madam Chair. I think you have the best of Hollywood here. That's for sure. Number 01 certainly reminds me of a poster, and I think it certainly is a great design. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I Meeting June 16, 2021 142 mean, these are all just super. You have a little bit of Hollywood and Broadway all combined here, and of course you have the -- star -- number -- than some of the others, and like Joe said, it's just phenomenal. -- emphasized number 10 and said -virtual connectivity interruption. I was originally going to go with number 05. But let me tell you: I don't know what it is about number 10, but it is striking. I think if you -- I think Peter mentioned also that, you know, we've not done a three-quarter face. You know, we don't have any teeth showing so we're good there. think -- I think it's just going to be striking. I I mean, as I look at all the possibilities, the lights really don't bother me as far as whether they're going to be reflective enough or not. his group can do his magic. I think that Joe and But I think when you put that quarter down and if you lay it, as Mary would say, on the table, you're going to look at it and you're not going to look at the lights. to say, "Who is that face?" You're going And it's going to draw www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 143 you to say who it is. it up. It's going to ask you to pick And so if Joe can make the lights even better or brighter, so be it. with number 10. But her light will shine on So I'm going to throw all of my votes for number 10. Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thanks, Tom. Donald Scarinci. Is Donald with us? MS. WARREN: Or did he leave? This is Jennifer. I believe he's left the call. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. So now it's up to me. All right. I was really glad, I think it was Art who mentioned number 04. Because that was something that I initially looked at and thought, "That woman is in charge." And so she had her own production company, she's not sitting like a demure actress. You know that she knows that she knows what she's doing. So I really did like number 04. But, you know, I was listening to what everybody said about number 01. How many times do we www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 144 just use the word "genius" for the wording on number 01? I think that the Lannin tabletop test would work just fine with number 01, and I predict that we're going to get a lot of positive publicity about the fact that we turned an American Woman Quarter into a movie poster featuring a famous actress from the '20s and '30s. I love number 01. I also love number 10. I agree with Joe, we've got the best of the best here, and it's going to be really interesting. Maybe we have a three-way tie; I don't know. But I think we should all get to work. Has the other Ms. Wong joined us, Jennifer? Did you see anybody? MS. WARREN: Ms. Wong, are you on? If you're on your phone and you muted your phone, unmute that, or hit star 6. MR. WEINMAN: This is Greg. Unfortunately, I think she is tied up on a work call, so I texted her. She said she can't -- last I heard was she could not get on the call right now, so it does not look like she's going www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 145 to be able to join us. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Well, thank you for double checking, Greg. So I think we've got lots of decisions to make, and I think that they're all going to be good. So I would like to ask people to submit their votes to Greg. It is 2:37. Shall we say at 2:50? That's 13 minutes. Is that enough time, Greg? Whoops. I can't hear -- MR. WEINMAN: It depends entirely on how quickly I'm going to get some more votes. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: do that. All right. I'll Thank you. Tom, did you want to say something? MR. URAM: Just wanted to remind everyone to submit their merit votes from the other two. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you. (Off the record.) CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. Greg, if you would like to read out the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 146 recommendations, please. MR. WEINMAN: Yes. For Anna May Wong, this is out of 30 points, as Donald did not score. number 01 had 18 points. So out of 30 points, Design number 02 had three. Design number 03 had four points. had four points. Design number 04 had eight points. Design number 05 had 14 points. three. Design number 03A Design number 06 had Design number 10 had 21, making it the high vote-getter. And Design number 11 had four points. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. TUCKER: Dennis. Wow. Madam Chair, this is I didn't catch part of that. Greg, could you repeat 04 and 11? MR. WEINMAN: had eight points. Sure. Design number 04 Design number 11 had four points. The closest vote-getters were number 01 with 18, number 05 with 14, and number 10 with 21 points. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Well, all right. Well, we need to keep her in lights, I guess. great. MR. BERNSTEIN: Mary? Mary? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 That's Meeting June 16, 2021 147 CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Does anybody have any -MR. MORAN: Madam Chair? CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Mike? I'm first. Mike Moran. I spoke loudest. I think these two, number 01 and number 10, are close enough to go to -- I'd like to see a show of hands on the committee for the two of them when we're not divided with our votes across all of the portfolio. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: So you're making a motion? MR. MORAN: Making a motion to vote for number 01 and number 10. MR. BERNSTEIN: Art Bernstein would second that. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. Mike and Art. Okay. Restate your motion, please. MR. MORAN: That the committee vote between 01 and 10. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 148 MR. WEINMAN: I guess that means you should do a roll call for each one, Mary. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: I will do a roll call. MR. TUCKER: Dennis. Madam Chair, this is May we have discussion first? CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. MORAN: MR. TUCKER: Certainly. We've already had it. I understand, Mike, but I really want to make a strong case for number 01 again if I may. I think they're both lovely designs. I think number 01 brings an extra element of innovation that number 10 does not have. I think 01 gives us an opportunity to really shine and do something completely different, completely new in American coinage. Not that this program needs anything new because it's already very innovative itself, but with number 01, we can really go the extra mile. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. Thank you, Dennis. So Greg, I would like -- DR. KOTLOWSKI: Mary, this is Dean Kotlowski. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 149 CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: DR. KOTLOWSKI: thing. Yes. I'm going to say one I think there are ten people voting. If this somehow winds up a five/five tie, I think we should submit them both equally and let the Mint make the choice. MR. WEINMAN: clarification. This is a point of I was going to clarify that the CCAC certainly can recommend two, that there's no bylaw that says you have to recommend one design. You could recommend -- you could equally recommend two if you so desired to do so. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: So Mike, would you like to restate the motion? MR. MORAN: I'd like to see a poll of the committee between number 01 and number 10. And Dennis, yes, I'm going to vote for number 01. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: All right. So I'm trying to figure out how to do this correctly. All right. Dean, which one do you want to vote for? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 150 DR. KOTLOWSKI: I'm actually going to vote for number 01. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: All right. Dennis, what are you going to vote for? MR. TUCKER: Number 01. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. GILL: last. Sam Gill. I was hoping I could go I'm going to -- I'm going to vote for number 10 because I can see her face, although I am so torn, and if number 01 wins, I'll be quite happy with that. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: All right. Robin Salmon. MS. SALMON: Number 10. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Can I vote last? CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Lawrence Brown. No. Number 01. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: DR. BROWN: Mike Moran. Lawrence Brown. Even though -- this is Even though I thought number 01 was over the top, Madam Chair, I am going with number 01. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Thank you, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 151 Lawrence. Peter van Alfen. DR. VAN ALFEN: Oh, man. This is hard. You know, I love the inscription on number 01. just not a fan of the portrait. in number 10. I'm I love the portrait And I just flipped a coin actually because I couldn't decide, and that coin came up tails, which means number 10. So I left it to the coin to decide. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: I promise not to tell the Secretary. Art Bernstein. MR. BERNSTEIN: Number 01, please. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: MR. URAM: Number 10. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: for number 01. Tom Uram. I'm going to vote One, two, three, four -- it is tied. Oh, wait. MR. WEINMAN: vote for number 01? No. Number 01 -- did you Then number 01 carries. MS. STAFFORD: Six to four. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: It's six to four. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 152 Okay. All right. So it is number 01, which I predict is going to get a lot of interesting publicity, and when I write the letter to Secretary Yellen, I'm going to describe our dilemma in that we had such great art, we could have picked 10 or 11, but I will tell her about both 01 and our reasons for it and both 10 and our reasons for it, so you can count on that. All right? Joe Menna, can I ask you if you had a favorite in this group? MR. MENNA: Yes. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Or is that cheating? MR. MENNA: If April says I can say so, I'll say so. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: April, what do you think? MS. STAFFORD: Engraver. You're the Chief Go for it. MR. WEINMAN: Absolutely. Go ahead, Joe. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 153 MR. MENNA: Can I briefly tell you why, or is that going to be too long? CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: No. That's what we want to know. MR. WEINMAN: Go ahead. They've already given their recommendation, Joe. MR. MENNA: Go ahead. I'm in step with -- I'm in step with you folks that number 01 is, like, just awesome. I mean, no. The juxtaposition of her -- of her pose with, you know, the text and the style of the text, the fonts chosen, and then the breaking of the fourth wall by inviting the holder of the coin to become a participant in the coin's activity itself, that's sizzling. We don't do that a lot. That's pretty cool. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Joe, I love you. Thank you very much. MR. MENNA: That was my most technical way of putting it. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Okay. Thank you. I'm sorry we don't have Ms. Wong www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 154 available and she's working. Do we have any further debate on anything? DR. VAN ALFEN: this. No. I can live with I'm happy. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Absolutely. I think we'll all fall in love with it, you know? All right. for today. meeting. This concludes our business I appreciate your attendance for this If there's no further business to come before the committee, I will entertain a motion to adjourn. MR. BERNSTEIN: Art Bernstein. Motion for adjournment. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: So Art is the first. MS. SALMON: Robin Salmon. CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Second. Robin, you're second. All in favor of adjourning, say "aye." UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: CHAIRPERSON LANNIN: Aye. So it is www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 155 unanimous, and I will look forward to seeing you possibly in August in person, and possibly in person in October at some point. So thank you very much for everything, and have a wonderful summer, all. Bye- bye. (Whereupon, the meeting concluded at 2:52 p.m.) www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 156 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, CARL HELLANDSJO, the officer before whom the foregoing proceedings were taken, do hereby certify that any witness(es) in the foregoing proceedings, prior to testifying, were duly sworn; that the proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting by a qualified transcriptionist; that said digital audio recording of said proceedings are a true and accurate record to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. CARL HELLANDSJO Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 16, 2021 157 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER I, SUSAN BUTLER, do hereby certify that this transcript was prepared from the digital audio recording of the foregoing proceeding, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. SUSAN BUTLER www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376