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Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 1 PUBLIC MEETING OF CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE Tuesday, June 16, 2015 9:30 a.m. - 3:30 p.m. Department of the Treasury United States Mint 801 9th Street, NW Boardroom, 8th Floor Washington, D.C. 20220 Reported by: Chaz Bennett Capital Reporting Company (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 2 C O N T E N T S Public Advisory Committee discussion of 2016 National Park Service 100th Anniversary Commemorative Coin 8 Public Advisory Committee discussion of Congressional Gold Medal to the foot soldiers of the 1965 Selma to Montgomery Voting Rights 133 Public Advisory Committee discussion of 65th Infantry Regiment for Borinqueneers Congressional Gold Medal (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 163 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 3 P R O C E E D I N G S MS. LANNIN: It is 9:30. We are here to start the public meeting for the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee on Tuesday, June 16th, 2015. Mary Lannin. I am the new Chair. I am And as my first act of business, I would like to thank Gary who served for the past five years in an excellent capacity and steered everybody to the point where we are today. So thank you very much, Gary. (Applause.) (Cell phone ringing.) MS. LANNIN: My second point of business is would everybody please turn the ringers off on their cell phones. (Laughter.) MS. LANNIN: Okay. The first thing that we're going to do is -- let's see, am I not on -we're going to discuss the letters and the minutes from the previous meetings which Gary had chaired. Has everybody read them and do we have any comments on them? (No response.) (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 4 MS. LANNIN: So who would like to make a motion to accept the letters as written? MR. HOGE: I will so move. MS. LANNIN: MR. VIOLA: Robert did. Anybody second? MS. LANNIN: I'll second. Herman seconded. Okay. And so these are for the letters of March 9th regarding the Rosebud Sioux and also for the Mark Twain recommendations also on March 9th, and the third one is reviewing the proposed obverse and reverse and the selection that we made for the Monuments Men Gold Medal. On March 10th, we have a letter for the 2016 Presidential Coin honoring Ronald Regan. If that's okay with everybody, would somebody like to make a motion to accept that? MR. JANSEN: I make a motion to accept that. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Erik. Anybody want to second? MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: All right. Section. Okay, we are done with that. Now we have -- (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 5 MR. WEINMAN: Actually, Madame Chairman, somebody should actually should vote -- you have a first -- you have a motion and a second but you didn't take a vote. MS. LANNIN: All right, thank you. sort of trying to get through this. I'm just All right. Should we vote on the March 9th letters as (inaudible) to accept them? Yes. Aye? (Whereupon, chorus of ayes voiced.) MS. LANNIN: Any nays? (Whereupon, No nays voiced.) MS. LANNIN: The March 10th letter, aye? (Whereupon, all voice aye.) MS. LANNIN: Thank you, thank you. Okay. We now have some minutes for the meeting of March 5th that was held in Portland. The same, would anybody like to change any of this; is there anything you would like to alter? (No response.) MS. LANNIN: as is? Would you like to accept them I have one comment I would like to actually make on minutes, the future minutes. Since we have a (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 6 number of months sometimes before we meet as a committee, when we do get the minutes and we see what we voted for, like MTG obverse number 1 was the recommended design of number 24 with 24 votes, I was hoping that it would be -- we would be able to put the actual point that we chose, the actual design, just sort of as a reference point; you know, so that we're not going back through another folder and saying, gosh, what did that look like. So for future minutes, I would like to see the recommended designs next to the scoring system if that's all right. Do I need to ask for a vote on that, Greg? MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: No, we can take care of that. All right. Okay. the minutes for our Portland meeting. So we have Would somebody like to make a motion? MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: I move we accept the minutes. MS. LANNIN: Okay. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: MS. LANNIN: Second. Votes? (Whereupon, all voiced aye.) (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 7 MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Michael. And then we also have minutes for a telephonic meeting that we attended on Monday, April 6th, and this was for the Selma Foot Soldiers and for the Lions Club. Has everybody had a chance to take a look at those minutes? (No audible response.) MS. LANNIN: Any corrections? (No corrections voiced.) MS. LANNIN: Okay. Somebody want to make a motion? MR. HOGE: I would so move. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Robert. MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: MS. LANNIN: Second. Jeanne seconds. Okay. I would like to -MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: The vote -- the vote. I'm sorry. Can we vote? (Whereupon, chorus of ayes voiced.) MR. WEINMAN: And can I abstain because I wasn’t' at that meeting. MS. LANNIN: Okay. So we have one (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 8 abstention. MR. WEINMAN: Because I wasn’t at the meeting. MS. LANNIN: That's fine. MR. WEINMAN: Thank you. (Whereupon, one abstention vote on acceptance of April 6th meeting minutes.) MS. LANNIN: All right. I would like to now turn the meeting over to April and to Betty (ph) who will talk to us about the plethora of designs that we have for the 2016 National Park Service 100th Anniversary Commemorative Coin. And is Mr. Leadbetter here? MS. STAFFORD: Yes. MR. LEADBETTER: MS. LANNIN: Welcome. Hello. Hello, Mr. Leadbetter. He is the Partnership Coordinator with the Centennial Office. Welcome, again. MR. LEADBETTER: MS. LANNIN: Thank you. MS. STAFFORD: Okay, April? Sure. Thank you. And I would just like to ask any participants on the phone, (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 9 if you could please mute your lines and just a reminder to our CCAC members, I know our mics are spaced apart but if you could speak into a mic when you're addressing any designs, that would be appreciated. I know our court reporter would appreciate that. So, we are talking about Public Law 113-291 that commemorates the 100th Anniversary of the National Park Service, or NPS, with a three-coin commemorative coin series. It's 100,000 five-dollar gold coins, 500,000 one-dollar silver coins, and 750,000 half-dollar coins, the mintage levels that are prescribed in the legislation. According to this act, the designs shall be emblematic of the 100th anniversary of the NPS. Surcharges are to be paid to the National Park Foundation for projects that help preserve and protect resources under the stewardship of the NPS and promote public enjoyment and appreciation of those resources. Required obverse inscriptions for these coins are "Liberty," "In God We Trust," and "2016." Required reverse inscriptions are "United States of (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 10 America," "E Pluribus Unum," and the denomination. As Madame Chair indicated, Mr. Donald Leadbetter, our liaison for this program and the Partnership coordinator of the Centennial Office of National Park Service has joined us today. Mr. Leadbetter, we will note your preferences as move through the portfolio, but would you care to make a few opening comments? MR. LEADBETTER: Sure, absolutely. you for having me today with the committee. Thank We're really excited about this project -- I just want to say on behalf of the Park Service. When the portfolio came through, we were thrilled with the plethora of choices. We were really overwhelmed by how many great designs were created by the artists for the program and had a lot of internal conversations going through the potential designs and the kind of discussing the merits of each and putting together a combination of designs that would be a good portfolio across the series and really enjoyed the process. We think there are some great selections that we can hone in on and look forward to hearing the views of the committee. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 11 MS. STAFFORD: Alrighty. So we will start with the gold coins, specifically gold obverse. is obverse one. This It depicts John Muir and Theodore Roosevelt hiking in Yosemite Valley with Half Dome in the background. Inscriptions include "100 Years National Park Service" and "1916-2016." Obverses 2 through 7 all feature John Muir and Theodore Roosevelt with Yosemite Falls or Half Dome in the background. Inscriptions include "Preserved for the Future," to "Preserve Unimpaired," "National Park Service 100 Years," and "1916-2016." So this is obverse two. Obverse 3 -- and I will note this is our liaison's referred design with a suggested edit that he would like us to consider, which is to incorporate the inscription "National Park Service Centennial." Observe 4, 5, 6, and 7. Obverse 8 features the profiles of John Muir and Theodore Roosevelt and the National Park Service logo. Obverse 9 features portraits of John Muir and Theodore Roosevelt with a view of Yosemite National Park in the background. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 12 Obverses 10 and 11 feature John Muir and Theodore Roosevelt. This is 10 and obverse 11. Obverse 12 depicts Theodore Roosevelt gesturing towards Yosemite National Park's Glacier Point. Obverse 13 depicts a bust of Theodore Roosevelt wearing a kerchief similar to one he would have worn as an outdoorsman. Obverse 14 imagines Theodore Roosevelt reflecting on the establishment of national parks depicted through Old Faithful and a bison. Additional inscriptions are "National Park Service" and "100 Years." Obverses 15 and 16 depicts one or two hands cupping an arrowhead, a reference to the National Park Service logo and symbolizing the idea that our country's natural and cultural heritage rests in our hands. Design 16 contains the additional inscription "Preservation." So this is -- sorry, go back to obverse 15 and 16. Obverse 17 depicts two men gazing upward at (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 13 a sequoia tree and was inspired by Theodore Roosevelt and John Muir's visit to the Mariposa grove of sequoias in Yosemite National Park. The design contains the additional inscriptions "Inspiration" and "1916-2016." Moving on to the reverses for the gold, reverses 1 and 2 depict John Muir contemplating the beauty of Yosemite National Park's Glacier Point. Reverses 3 and 4 feature the National Park Service logo. I should note that reverse 3 is our liaison's preferred design with some suggested edits he would like the committee to comment upon or consider. One is to flatten the border or edge of the arrowhead so that it is more representative of the National Park Service's current logo. And I would like to let the committee members know that that can be seen in clad reverse 10 if you'd like to see the edge that they would like to be sued for this design. Also, the liaison would like us to consider adjusting the design so there is no space between "United" and "States" in the inscription "United States of America." (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 14 Moving on to design 4, it contains the additional inscription "100 Years of Stewardship." Reverse 5 depicts Devil's Tower, the first national monument established by Theodore Roosevelt and a prairie falcon in fight. The additional inscription is "Preserve" "Conserve" and "Inspire." Reverses 6, 7, and 8 depict Devil's Tower National Monument. This is 6. Design 7 includes the National Park Service logo and reverse 8 includes the Big Dipper. Additional inscriptions for all are "Conservation," "Inspiration," and "Preservation," Reverses 9, 9A and 9B feature a Native American kiva as seen in the Chaco Culture National Historical Park in New Mexico and/or native pottery. The designs contain the additional inscriptions "Preserve," "Conserve," and "Inspire." Designs 9 and 9A include the Liberty Bell and a bald eagle, both symbols of our nation, so this is reverse 9, 9A, and 9B. Reverse 10 features a bison with her calf and the additional inscription "Preserving for Future Generations." (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 15 Shall I move on to the silver and clad portfolios, Madame Chair? MS. LANNIN: I think that we should perhaps, if it's all right with you, just deal with gold first. We have such an enormous number of designs to choose from that I think our heads will be swimming. It's just -- it's easier to do one at a time. One thing that I would like to say, though, is that -- to remind people that not everyone will be able to purchase or desire to purchase all three coins. And so I think each really has to be a stand- alone. The theme should carry through on each coin that it is the National Park Service coin, so if we could kind of keep that in mind. Also, as Chair, things are gradually changing. I'm looking at different ways of doing things and one of the things that I would like to talk about, we're going to keep our voting procedure the same as we have done in previous sessions, although the voting will be looked at in a subcommittee, I hope, over the summer. right to vote last. And I'm going to reserve the We have a number of different (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 16 designs. They're all products of the artist's mind. One thing I would encourage us to do because of the number is to vote on the coins or comment on the coins that we are actually interested in. We don't need, at this juncture I believe, to say why we did not choose a particular coin. interest of time. And this is sort of in the So if that's agreeable to everybody, Jeanne, would you like to start with the gold obverse? MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: thank you, Madame Chairman. Sure. First of all, I -- is this working for you -- I would like to compliment the artists on the portfolio that was sent to us. at. We have a lot to look Some of these pieces are truly energetic and inspirational, so I thank you for giving us some visual candy here. I would like to only speak to the designs that I think are worth talking about in this short amount of time so in the obverse, I would like to comment on the fact that this -- we recommended that, you know, Roosevelt and Muir be on the medal and the artists really did that, and I think they did it in a (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 17 fine way. So I am looking at number 3 because it's, first of all, the preference; number two reason is because I like that one very much. I think it says what we want to do. But also, I am looking at the fact that we have an obverse and a reverse to consider and so when I think about Roosevelt in number 12 as the person who really set this program in motion and then look at reverse number 2, I think this is how most of us look at John Muir. So to -- I'm sorry, I'm not going with the preference of the Park Service in either one of these, but this is sort of the designs that I think are the most appropriate in this issue, so that's… MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Jeanne. MR. JANSEN: I'd also like to say thank you to the artists that submitted this. Erik. I think the artwork for the gold is the finest artwork of the three sets. Quite frankly, I'm a little disappointed on the alternatives we have for the silver and the clad. We'll get to those later. I have a question of Mint. You provided us with a very short -- it's just slightly over a page of (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 18 kind of narratives here. Is this what was provided to the artist -MS. STAFFORD: MR. JANSEN: Yes. MS. STAFFORD: -- or was there more? Yes. If you recall, we discussed that in the admin meeting -MR. JANSEN: MS. STAFFORD: Correct. -- so what you have in front of you is the summation of the discussion we had with the liaisons as well as discussion that was had with the CCAC in March. And so this was the direction that those conversations yielded to the artist. MR. JANSEN: I feel like we got art that was the result of a very prescriptive and, quite honestly, narrow set of narratives here. Personally, I'd like to see a little richer narrative with more inspiration, a little more degree of freedom for the artists. I think we got a fairly narrow set of designs here in terms of content. We basically said give us two portraits and that's what we got. And I think there's more to the Park Service than that. Obviously, we have three coins to do here and six (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 19 surfaces so there is a lot of territory to cover. When I'm looking at a design here, I can't help but kind of actually start with the silver in my mind because the silver is the high-volume coin. all know that. We At least history has said that the silver will be the high-volume coin. MS. LANNIN: Erik, can we talk about the silver when we get to the silver? MR. JANSEN: We sure can. The reason I mention it here is I almost want to reserve some symbols for the silver, and the National Park Service arrow in particular is kind of where I'm headed on this. And so I want the committee to be thoughtful in that regard because I think it is a very likely image that we'll want to use on the silver. so the question becomes do we want to use it once or more than once. MS. LANNIN: number. Okay. You have to give a Which number are you speaking about? MR. JANSEN: Well, that object would appear in obverse 8. MS. LANNIN: MS. JOHNSTON: For the record, okay. That appears in reverse 3, (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 20 reverse 4, and so I want the committee to be mindful of the consequence of using or not using that here in that regard. I think that's an important decision to be mindful of. MS. LANNIN: Noted. MR. JANSEN: I personally kind of prefer design number 8 for the gold. I think that symbol -- having said what I said, I think that symbol deserves to be on the kind of spiritual and philosophical leadership that a gold coin would, I think, nominally represent. I found it difficult to choose amongst the portraits. Muir was a difficult individual to capture in portraiture because he had several different looks. If I had to choose a single design, it would be design number 8. I think that's probably the most accurate. I think that design has at least some negative space. These designs, in general, lack negative space. They're' very busy for the small gold planchet, and I don't want to lose that. I do want to not design 14 does have two interesting angles as I kind of take it in. And if that were to be a design here, I personally would like (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 21 to see what I see as a thoughtful Teddy Roosevelt here. And the portrait, in my sense of it, is more about the thinking man asserting the needs of the future through the national park system, and that would be a challenge to the engraver to make sure that portrait really messages that intention. I'm also, in that design, I don't love it but I do like the modernist edge that the horizontal line with the interesting "100." I do like that. busy for the small gold pallet. It's a little I'm going to optimistically hope there's a modernist option in the silver. I also ended up, in my own notes, liking 17. The sequoia is an image that's often used through time, a constant through the long ages. You certainly don't know that that's Theodore Roosevelt or John Muir. It just looks like two people who are observing this enormous creature of nature, the tree. The layout has some interesting negative space although not a lot. And those would be kind of my comments. Thank you, Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Erik. Herman. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 22 MR. VIOLA: Thank you, Chairman. And I want to say also these are some wonderful drawings and great designs. quality. from. I'm very impressed with the artistic The trouble is there is so much to choose You kind of wish you could have more than one, but I would say that I would agree with Erik, that I like number 8 for the obverse. But the thing is the way I was -- my dilemma is I feel you can't choose the obverse without knowing what the reverse is going to be because they have to be a set. And I'd like to see the symbol, you know, of the Park Service on one side; then on the other side, it should be something different. And so my choice for the reverse if we went with this obverse is number 9A which kind of gave the symbols of America. And so it's, again, you know, you can't have the symbol or the seal of the Park Service on both sides so my feeling is you have to be very careful in how we pick the two so they form a nice set. And I agree with Erik also that, you know, you've got these three sets of coins now and so we (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 23 want to kind of get all the symbols brought in so that we really do give an overview of what the meaning of the Park Service is, what a contribution it has been to all of us and so -- and will continue to mean. So I think it's a real challenge here with these three coins and the six kinds of sides we're going to be looking for. But anyhow, this would be my first choice for the reverse. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Herman. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, Mary. Heidi. First, I'd like to offer a little counterbalance to Erik's earlier comment. One of the things that we've asked for in the past on this committee is to have a little input before we see the artwork so that the artists are not wasting their time on topics that we are not interested in seeing at all, and the Mint has been wonderful in allowing us to have that say so that we could narrow these very broad topics. And so the narrative that was provided I don't think is too narrow. I think it represents our conversation that we had a few months ago in talking about the things that we would like to see. And the artists are always free (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 24 to stray from that when they feel like they want to stretch out their wings and be creative, so I agree with having those. One of my confusions in this packet overall is I'm seeing designs that look like reverse designs presented as obverses, and I see designs that look like obverses presented as reverses. So moving forward, I'd like a little more thought in the preparation of these packets; is this really an obverse design or is this a reverse or an obverse. So having said that, in the obverses that we're looking at, April, I'd like to ask you -- you said the stakeholder preference was obverse 3 but they would like some additional text. MS. STAFFORD: Yes. They would like the National Park Service Centennial incorporated as an inscription. MS. WASTWEET: So this design is pretty full and complete and the composition is quite pleasant as it is. Is there any suggestion from Don as to how to get that in there? MR. EVERHART: What I would do, Heidi, is I (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 25 would put "In God We Trust" underneath and parallel to Liberty and then I would run the additional inscription down where "In God We Trust" is. MS. WASTWEET: Would you also shrink the word "Liberty" a bit to fit that in? MR. EVERHART: I don't think we need to shrink the word "Liberty." We just might need to shrink the phrase "In God We Trust" to fit underneath there a little; that's all. MS. WASTWEET: to do it. I think that's the only way It still makes a rather full design. I do -MR. EVERHART: You know, there could be some additional finagling of the size of the figures, too. MS. WASTWEET: the mountain. the landscape. Yeah, or possibly the size of I do like the way the beard runs into That's very creative and I also like the way the bodies fade to incorporate the text below. Some of the other designs that we have in our packet don't do that and it makes it difficult to see the words on the final coin. It may look fine in the drawing but this is the way it really should be done. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 26 So I do like this design. I also like design obverse 5. I think this is a nice composition if we could keep the background shallow and not get too busy with it. I like the way that that's laid out although the size looks a little -- Muir should be a little larger, I think, but that's a minor point. Obverse 8, I really see these logos, I think, are more appropriate on the reverse than on the obverse so I would not be in favor of this as an obverse. I also like obverse 11 if we could get the drapery to fade behind the lettering. negative space. This has a nice Some of these designs, they're really lovely drawings but as a coin, it doesn't offer any clarity with the negative space around it. There's a lot of depth, a lot of these postcard-type looking designs that we're seeing again. For the -- and Jeanne, you had suggested putting Roosevelt on one side and Muir on the other. MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: MS. WASTWEET: Yeah. But I'm afraid that would (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 27 become a two-headed coin. MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: MS. WASTWEET: Yeah. A two-headed coin. So as an art medal, I think that that would be interesting but as a coin, I think we would end up with a two-headed coin, so I would steer away from that. I do like reverse design number 3. my favorite of the packet. That is I think it's very creative the way they extended beyond the arrow with the scenery behind. That could be even emphasized a little bit more and with the suggested changes from the stakeholder group, I would be in approval of that. I'm not sure how you would move the "United States" closer together. whole logo. I guess you'd have to shrink the I like the composition as it is. I don't feel a need to move the "United" closer to the "States" but that's my opinion. On reverse 9 and 9A, even though these symbols -- these objects are part of the national park system, I think that the symbol of the bald eagle and the symbol of the liberty bell have such a strong connotation, the language and the iconography of our (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 28 country, that it really muddles the message. It doesn't focus on the national parks because it gets away from that into our language of patriotism. That concludes my comments. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Heidi. Robert. (Inaudible) I'd like to make one (inaudible) here. If you agreed with what one of our fellow committee members said, you don't -- you can just say "I agree with what Heidi said about this" and just reference that as part of the vote and part of the discussion, okay. Am I not on? There, I'm on. Okay. Let me repeat that. If you agree with some comments that others have made -- for instance, I agree with some of the things that Heidi ahs said -- it's not necessary to repeat over and over the same message. I think we can have more substantive discussions that way on the coins that rise to the top as our favorites. Thanks. Robert. MR. HOGE: Thank you, Mary. I do concur with the comments of my previous colleagues. (Laughter.) (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 29 MR. HOGE: However, I would like to make a few additional observations very briefly. These are beautiful drawings in general but that's part of the problem. These are drawings and once again, I see overly busy designs. When you think of the tiny little size of this gold coin, with all of these different nuances of different multi-levels and shading and enormous landscapes in a background, I think that something has happened that's just wrong about most of these designs. The one that I like best actually is number 17. This is an extraordinary thing with the depiction of humans being dwarfed by an aspect of nature, which I think is a nice part of what the National Park Service represents for all of us and the inspiration is nice here, too. In a way, this looks more as though it should be a reverse of a coin than an obverse, however. I think that on the coin, of course, we won't recognize Muir and Roosevelt because of the minuscule size that will be incorporated. But I think this is something that is worth looking at. It would be really a change from many of the coins (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 30 we've seen. I like the portraits of Roosevelt and Muir we see on so many of these, and I would like to see the National Park Service design element of the arrowhead included. However, I think that there are some problems with these things. It does look as though it should be a reverse design, the arrowhead that is. And I like seeing the Devil's Tower because it's a very recognizable and a very striking image, so I think that's something that might not be lost on the small field of a coin. MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: That's really it. Okay, thank you. Gary. Thank you, Madame Chair. Back in 2001, this committee issued the blueprint and two of the ideas that came out of that was that the committee wanted thematic input ahead and also we wanted to give the artist more artistic freedom. And I think, you know, what I should say is that thematic input, one of my reasons for wanting to do that was that it had the committee put some skin in the game and need to take responsibility along with the mentor organization as far as what came out on the other side when we were here reviewing designs. And I think in (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 31 this instance, this is an example where I think our thematic input led to what I think is an extremely detailed set of instructions to your artists that I think ultimately limited their artistic freedom. And I mean I've never quite seen a list like was in our packet that defined themes for particular denominations and so forth. members talking about these things. I remember I'm not sure as a committee we ever thought that necessarily the gold would be about the creation core values of the National Park Service and so forth. I'm not sure -- I mean I remember a couple members talking about maybe we'd want to see some kids on the half dollar. But I think maybe we, as a committee, erred to some extent. And I think in the future, we need to be careful that as we give our thematic input that it be given in broad themes. And I think some of the consequences of that when we're looking at particularly the gold coin here, what will drive this coin to be a success, two things I think really predominate, and it's going to be consideration of the planchet size, then the finish. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 32 We're talking about a coin the size of a nickel and on that nickel, we're asking to put the bust of two gentlemen on there. So think about that and then the finish, we know that the -- between the proof and the uncirculated, the ones that tend to sell better are the proofs. So then we're getting into how critical it is to have negative space. So for example if we look at -- let's go to obverse 10 -- somebody has a great drawing talent here but by the time you take that down to the size of a nickel -- and, you know, I wanted to -- if I could pass this over to the representative of the Park Service, this is a proof coin. The raised elements are what we call "frosted" and they kind of turn white, and then the negative space is this polished mirror finish. If you think about this design which I really love the design if I let the 8-inch design on paper seduce me, but what we're going to end up with is a presentation of a lot of white with two heads on a very small planchet. So I think that this might work well. In fact, I think number 11 would actually be better because it provides some negative space around the (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 33 raised elements. But the fact that -- I hope we're not limited to saying we could only consider this design for the gold coin. I think this might be a wonderful for the silver dollar because we have more space there to bring out details that the human eye can discern. So I'm kind of troubled by -- and I think, as a committee, we take some responsibility for this -- I'm kind of troubled by the lineup of the designs under the banners of various denominations. So as far as my favorite for an obverse, it's this one, number 11. I can't say that I can support this as a gold coin because I don't think it's going to work that well. Take a nickel out of your pocket and imagine that design on it; all these fine details, this nice shadowing you're going to see, that all goes away and we're going to have this -- a lot of white with some detail, yeah, but you're not going to be able to discern that much with the naked eye. Reverses, I favor number 6. It's a little traditional for me but I do kind of like the fact that we've got some negative space there. I think, you (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 34 know, even on a $5.00 coin, this might work well because it's a fairly simple design. So with that, I'll pass on but I really think that some of these designs belong on the other denominations. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Gary. certainly bring up that prospect again. And we can And Donald, before you speak, Michael Bugeja, would you like to weigh in on any comments? MR. BUGEJA: Yeah. Thank you so much, Mary, and I appreciate -MS. LANNIN: We miss you. MR. BUGEJA: -- the opportunity to -- just have two comments here. I also was going to point out the small planchet size that we're dealing with, about the size of a nickel but really only less than 20 percent larger than a dime. So adding inscriptions, particularly with number 3, is going to be not very appealing in the size of the coin, particularly when you have jugate less profiles blending in with trees. You have the beard of John Muir blending in with the trees of the park. So that concerns me and I don't really -- I mean we can say that there are mechanical (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 35 fixes to all of this but it's just way too busy and the devices are too similar in art strokes. I too wish that the designers would also keep in mind the basic coin design. Too often when I look at the artwork, and word class artwork, there is really no understanding of obverse and reverse. If you think of obverse as the topic and reverse as the theme or what's the coin about, the National Park Service; what's it about really; how important it is to the United States, then you are actually dealing with coin art that wins awards in competition. So in looking at this and the size of the planchet, this would be the first coin minted by the U.S. Mint that has jugate profiles. The Mint -- there is only one two-headed gold commemorative in its history and that is the two-headed Clark -- I can't remember -- I think it was 1917 -- but I want to get to the jugate profiles are only confined to the half dollar in commemoratives, and the first one was jugate with the first commemorative dollar that was minted. So taking all these things into account, I was looking at obverse 10 as being -- using the coin (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 36 space as best it could. Obverse 11 does have that white space but at the expense of the jugate right profile. Now if you want to pair that with a design number, the reverse 3 is really an incredible design. I love this design and I can understand the "United" and the "States" and I think that can be fixed, because the park emblem takes into account the small size of the planchet and you get kind of a mirror through the symbol of the emblem into the park. Now that's simply ingenuous and really indicative of knowing the size of that planchet. When you take a look at you really want to have Roosevelt and Muir on this particular coin, you get a two-headed one with the size like Lewis and Clark gold commemorative. And as you think about the beautiful artwork that is here, and I thought number 4, for instance, was incredibly beautiful, I mean that's a design for the Lafayette Dollar commemorative. So keeping all that in mind, I wanted to both praise and to advise the artists that basic coin design really needs to be encompassed -- incorporated (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 37 into what we see rather than too canvases on which -whose limitations are only set by Congress and what the legends and models should be. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Thank you, Michael. MR. SCARINCI: Donald. I like a lot of what just about everybody said but, you know, there's -- and I want to compliment what Don is doing because clearly, the artists are looking at gold coins, you know, gold commemorative coins that we've done in the past before they do gold coins for the future, because there are very few gold coins designs in this grouping, you know, that wouldn't work. I mean, you know -- and no one here is talking about any of the ones that wouldn't work. What we're talking about are the ones that would work. And to look at the coins that would work, you know, I want -- I have to point out what you really have to do is -- the size of these little guys, you know, is very -- is the key issue, right. So a lot of these designs you can disqualify because of the size. Bob. For example, number 17, I completely agree, I like 17, you know, but on a coin of this size, (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 38 these two little guys are going to be bugs. So I think let's look at the gold coins that have worked in the past and part of the series. And let's look at one that particularly doesn't work. What do you see? All right, obviously, you know, the 1986 Statue of Liberty coin is probably one of the, if not the, most successful commemorative coin designs. That's with Liberty and I think this was designed -- I think this was one of Elizabeth Jones's designs when she was here. This coin won the Krause Coin of the Year Award for coins dated 1986. It's a really simple design, very powerful. Liberty fact takes most of the planchet. circle in a circle thing going on. The There's the There's symmetry. There's -- it's got a lot of things going for it. Needless to say, you know, the Mint directors of the world thought so, too, and voted for it to be the coin of the year. So that's probably the most successful design. Let's look at one of the least successful designs. Least successful designs is the 1007 Jamestown coin and that happens to be, I think, my (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 39 first year if not my first meeting on this committee. and I remember the discussion and this is really not this committee's fault; none of these coins are. This was a mix and match of obverses and reverses and it's one of those times that we went, you know, and crossed planchet sizes and this is what you get when you do that. And this coin just doesn't work. know, it's not particularly attractive. It's -- you It's too small for -- it's too busy, too small versus all of the other coins in the series which, really, what they do is -- which is, you know, clearly what the artists looked at -- you know, what all the other coins do is they highlight one thing. do on a little guy. That's all you're going to You're going to pick out one thing, whether it's the San Francisco Mint Building, whether it's the quill pen, you're going to pick out one thing and that's it, you know, because that's all you can do on the size. So therefore, this is not really that difficult in as many -- you know, since we have so many designs. I really think rue looking at a very small universe of things. I mean obviously, the best. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 40 now couple that with what someone else said that it's the story -- I think Michael said, you know, the obverse and then the reverse is the theme. That you always have to keep in mind because you're putting some themes on the obverse here. You know, the hand -- all the hand stuff, those might make great reverses but they don't make great obverses when you have -- you know, when you have some of this other stuff. If you're going to take portrait opportunity in this series, if you're going to do one portrait in this series of three coins, this is probably the coin to make the portrait because of the planchet size. And, you know, to that end, the three that seem to work in reverse order is probably 13 because it's just one portrait of one person and there he is, very simple, very straightforward. Number 10 is probably the most interesting and I think you could pull this off on the gold coin in addition, you know, to giving you the two portraits; it's also pretty striking. I like the fact that it eats into the field and you really are going to have a coin with a lot of relief, so it does make a (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 41 nice coin and it does kind of remind me of this gold coin from 1986. And the third one, of course, is number 3 and my concern for number 3, because I was sucked into this coin just for the same exact reason was sucked into this coin, you know, I like this coin because the beard goes into the thing. I mean that's exactly -- and, of course, Don knows that we're suckers for that kind of thing. So, you know, I think it's a great coin and I'm just like 50/50 as to whether it's a great coin for the size of the planchet. sure. I'm not So as much as I'd love to do this one, I wish it was on one of the bigger coins. You know, so I think for the small coin, I really thing we're left with number 10. If you want to go with the two busts and see how it goes, that would be a very high relief kind of a coin, high relief looking kind of a coin because of the two busts, and it would be a challenge, you know, for -you know, not -- certainly not a first but, you know, an unusual thing that we do, that we've done. The save thing would be number 13, just get (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 42 T.R., there he is but, you know, safe is kind of boring sometimes. So, you know, I probably would suggest number 10 as the way to go on the obverse. The reverse is very simple, I mean in my mind. The reverse is really a no-brainer. I think we are all saying the same thing on the reverse, that's number 3. And, you know, I don't want anyone to cringe when we talk about the bevel but we need the bevel. That's the point of the coin. The point of the design is the bevel, you know, so we can't take the bevel out. different coin. If you take the bevel out, you have a What's cool about hits is, you know, is it a mirror reflection; is it a wood carving on wood; is it, you know, but it flows into the design. You're left with like is this one of these plaques, these wooden carved plaques that you see, you know, but wait, here's the rest of the landscape; is this a mirror and am I looking in reverse but probably not because here's the rest of the landscape in front of me. So I just think this is a cool design, you know, for something that needs to sneak in what the coin is about, which his National Park Service. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 43 So to me, this one's a no-brainer just as it is. I wouldn’t touch it. I wouldn't touch it. I think it's -- I think the artist is right on the money with this coin and, you know, I think for the -- in these three set series, which is the last thing I'll say, these three sets -- these three-coin sets that have a gold coin, you know, I always look at the set and yes, people don't buy the set. the set. People like me buy You know, not everybody buys the set. I get that and a lot of people are just going to buy one of the dollars. know. But for those -- but they are a set, you They are a set. They are a set of three and whenever you do a set of three, it's really the high value denomination in the set that's kind of the label of the set so to speak. It's kind of the point of ingress into the set, like the set starts here. The set doesn't start from the low value, from the half dollar and go to the gold. It starts from the gold and goes down to the half dollar. So, you know, when you look at the gold that way, it's the label -- you know, it's, okay, what are (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 44 we trying to -- what are we going to be communicating with this set. Well, what we're going to be communicating with this set is what the gold coin sets the tone for. So, you know, the obverse of the two busts, the reverse of this, and you've got the perfect introduction to the set and I think the potential of a really, really nice coin if they pull it off, which my money's on them, that they're going to pull it off. So that's my opinion. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Thank you, Donald. Tom. Thank you, Madame Chairman. If it would be all right, I'd like to read a couple of comments from Mike Moran first for the record; is that okay? MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Certainly. Thank you. As Mike would say, I'll keep it short and to the point. The National Park Service interests, obviously, Muir and Roosevelt deserve a presence on the commemorative coins, and he has reiterated also some of the thoughts here because he says because of the dimensions involved, their images best fit on the obverse of the half eagle yet (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 45 when I look at the proposed designs, they're almost all detailed and too small for the gold coin; jugate busts are the only real fit. I think a number of us have mentioned that already. There is just not enough room to put Yosemite featured in the background as many of the (inaudible) have tried. example of this problem. Observe 5 is an It's a powerful design which would be drastically blunted in the effect on the half eagle. Obverse 10 has too much inscription and clutter and poor use of negative space. That leaves obverse 11. The reverse of the gold coin needs to have the National Park Service emblem and he agrees with reverse 3. So that's comments from colleague Mike Moran. Some additions that I'd like to add, I agree; I think the bust and a lot of what Don just said was exactly my thoughts as well. towards 10 and 11 on the obverse. that I dislike obverse 3. And I gravitate I just -- it's not It's just that I think the -- between 10 and 11, I like Muir's hat changed a (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 46 little bit from Theodore Roosevelt's hat. they're both kind of the same. In 10, I like the fact that it's kind of sliding back on his head there, a little bit more of an exploring image to me for the piece. So that's why I gravitated towards obverse 11 versus 10 and that would be my choice. And with the rest of the committee pretty much, I agree with reserve 3 and I was even going to ask Don about that. I agree with what Don just said. The wood carving, if we went to clad which I pulled out, it would just get lost. stacking effect. It has to stay with the Don, is that how you would envision it to be, more of a stacked effect on there where you would have that edging? Because if you go to this one, which was what was suggested, you'll just lose that; you'll lose what you're trying to accomplish here. MR. EVERHART: I think the intent of the artist was to replicate one of the carved signs that you might see outside of one of the national parks. MR. URAM: Yeah. And I think that's what it dos and I -- you know, if we do go with that (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 47 suggestion, I think we lose it. just keep it the way it is. I think you need to Thank you, Madame Chairman. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thank you, Tom. going to be very brief and to the point. I'm would be either 10 or 11 for the obverses. My choices I think those are very strong portraits. I, too, was initially drawn to number 3 because I love the way the beard sort of fluttered off into nothingness, but this, it's -- I don't think it's going to work on the size planchet that we have. And I also agree with the stakeholder's preferred number 3. I think that a lot of us have talked about it. I don't want the edges changed on that. And to that light, I would like to actually ask Don now if he could comment on the ones that seem -- that we seem to have spent a lot of time talking about, if there are any technical problems in striking any of these, any finishes that you can think about that you'd like to comment on. MR. SCARINCI: I don't see any problems technically in striking them. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 48 MS. LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: Okay. I mean we can always experiment around with different finishes on them to kind of separate the elements and give it more clarity but if you want me to comment more specifically on a MS. LANNIN: Well, for instance, this: what would you do on the edge of the arrowhead? MR. SCARINCI: Well, it would be faceted so it would reflect light differently and hopefully it would also imply that it's a carved wooden piece and that's, you know, hand cut. MS. LANNIN: Okay. All right. Anybody have any other comments? MR. SCARINCI: I mean also, you could texture the sign itself and then leave the background kind of fading into the distance so that you get the feeling that this icon here of the arrow is representative of the actual land itself. MS. LANNIN: And then perhaps even the wood texture a little bit? MR. SCARINCI: Yes. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 49 MS. LANNIN: Or do you think that would take away from it? MR. SCARINCI: I don't think it needs to have wood texture because I think the carving lines that you're going to achieve when that's sculpted will imply that. MS. LANNIN: Okay, thank you. Heidi had -- and then you, Erik, okay? MS. WASTWEET: Now that everyone has commented, it seems we're narrowing in on a few designs that we're liking, seems to be some consensus on the reverse so I won't talk about that. But I do want to address obverses 10 and 11 since there's been a lot of talk about that and there's a little split and it might dilute the vote. So I want to talk about these two compared to each other. Because of the size of the planchet, the sort of kneejerk reactions is to think we should make the heads bigger; but as a sculptor, I'm also looking not just at the diameter of the coin but the depth of the sculpt. And as a sculptor, if I was given the choice of these two, I would prefer to sculpt number (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 50 11 because I could get more out of the relief and have that sharp silhouette shape to enhance the visibility, actual size. And, Don, you can either agree or counter that with me as a sculptor. What do you think? MR. EVERHART: I don't know. each have their own merits. I think they I mean I like the larger size in the preceding design. You probably could get more detail and character into the faces that way, but I understand what you're saying with the use of the negative space delineating the figures more. compositionally, I think I like 10 better. But That's just me. MS. WASTWEET: MS. LANNIN: Okay. Okay. Any further comments? MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: MS. LANNIN: Yes -- Jeanne. MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: --just one. I like both 10 and 11 after listening to everyone speak, but I feel like on number 3, Muir looks more like Muir. And I think if we choose, maybe we could suggest that the artist take another look at that portrait. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 51 MS. LANNIN: Okay. I think that's fair. MR. JANSEN: I would echo the same comment, Erik. that I think obverse 3 is a much better rendition of Muir. To be honest, in 10 and 11, I felt like it just looked like two renegades from the wild west and really not very much signature portraits. And the comment I was going to make when we were on the discussion of reverse number 3 is most often that I've seen it, if you look at the National Park Service arrow logo here, most often those letters are carved into with a router or something, so it might be an ideal application for a negative relief on this lettering of the National Park Service itself. MS. LANNIN: comments? Thank you. Any further Gary. MR. MARKS: Just quickly. I failed to look at my notes when I was speaking to the fact that I do very much support reverse 3. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Okay. Are we all finished with the discussion of the National Park Service gold? (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 52 (No response.) MS. LANNIN: Okay. And Greg is coming over here. Why don't we take a recess and we can vote and turn in our votes t Greg. I'd like to remind you to sign everything and to vote for each and every obverse for transparency, whether you give it a one, a two, or three, whatever. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: MS. LANNIN: Or a zero. Or a zero. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or a zero. (Whereupon, briefly off the record.) MS. LANNIN: While Greg is carefully tallying the results of the gold, there is a thought that when the tally is done -MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: We're done. We're done; okay, great. Why don't you tell us the results of the gold because as said, it will inform how we vote on the silver -MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: Yes. -- and on the clad and we also have an hour and 15 minutes. MR. WEINMAN: We will print this out for you (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 53 as well but obverse 1, zero; 2, three; 3, fifteen votes; 4, two votes; 5, three votes; 6, zero votes; 7, zero votes; 8, five votes; 9, zero votes; 10, twentytwo votes; 11, eighteen votes; 12, two votes; 13, two votes; 14, five votes; 15, one vote; 16, one vote; 17, seven votes. To the reverse: 1, two votes; 2, six votes; 3, 27 votes; 4, six votes; 5, six votes; 6, five votes; 7, four votes; 8, two votes; 9, two votes; 9A, five votes; 9B, two votes; 10, one vote. MS. LANNIN: And so the clear winners are then -- could you just repeat those for us what the top votes. MR. WEINMAN: The top scores -- I'm sorry -- so the top vote would be -- for the obverse, the top vote getter was number 10 with 22 votes; followed by number 11 with 18 votes; followed by number 3 with 15 votes. For the reverse, number 3 was the top vote getter with 27 votes, and then 2, 4, and 5 all had 6 votes. There are, yes, 30 possible total; that's correct. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 54 MS. LANNIN: Okay. So it looks like number 10 and number 3. Okay, should we move on to the silver? Jeanne, would you like to start? I hate to keep picking on you first but if you're comfortable with that -MS. STAFFORD: Madame Chair, if I could read the design descriptions. MS. LANNIN: I'm so sorry. MS. STAFFORD: MS. LANNIN: That's okay. Stop me on all this procedure stuff, okay. MS. STAFFORD: Sure. Okay, so moving on to the silver program, silver obverse: Obverse 1 depicts a father with his daughter on his shoulders as she first experiences Old Faithful at Yellowstone National Park seen in the background. The design contains the additional inscription "National Park Service." Obverse 2 features a boy holding binoculars encircled by a bison, the Brooklyn Bridge, and a microscope, all representing facets of the National (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 55 Park Service and its programs. The additional inscription is "National Park Service." Obverse 3 features Old Faithful and contains the additional inscriptions "National Park Service Centennial" and "1916-2016." This is our liaison's preferred design with a suggested edit they would like he committee to consider, which is removing the bison and placing the NPS arrowhead there. Obverse 4 depicts Yosemite Falls and includes the National Park Service logo. The additional inscriptions are "National Park Service Centennial" and "1916-2016." Obverses 5 and 5A feature a grizzly bear foraging in a meadow with Colter Peak of Yellowstone National Park in the background. Additional inscriptions are "National Park Service Centennial" and "1916-2016." This is 5 and 5A. Obverse 6 depicts a big horn sheep standing on a rock outcrop overlooking the valley of Yellowstone National Park. It contains the additional inscription "National Park Service Centennial." Obverse 7 depicts a mule deer buck with (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 56 Yosemite Valley and falls in the background. It contains the additional inscription "National Park Service" and "1916-2016." Obverse 8 depicts Devil's Tower National Monument and includes the additional inscription "1916-2016." Moving on to the silver reverses: Reverse 1 features a Native American woman in the foreground and Congo Square and Chanizol (ph) folklorico dancers in the background representing the cultural heritage often celebrated and preserved by the National Park Service. Reverse 2 depicts the National Park Service logo and a Latino folklorico dancer representing the multi-faceted, human cultural experience that can be found n America's National Parks. It contains the additional inscription "Heritage Culture and Pride." Reverse 3 depicts a raven dancer emblematic of dancing seen in some parks. IT contains the additional inscriptions "Pride, Culture, Heritage and History." Reverse 4 features a ballet folklorico (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 57 dancer from other Southwest, a jazz musician from Louisiana, an Apache crown dancer representing the National Park Service efforts to preserve and revitalize our culture, heritage and history. IT contains the additional inscriptions "Culture, Heritage, and History." This is our liaison's preferred design and again, the liaison would like the committee to consider some suggested edits, specifically to remove the trumpet player and add either a generic Tuskegee Airman or a Buffalo Soldier. And we would also like to note that the NPS is seeking proper tribal consultation for the inclusion of the Apache crown dancer. Moving on to reverses 5 and 6, they both depict a trumpet, an upright base headstock and a banjo, instruments typical of traditional jazz music heard in New Orleans Jazz National Historic Park. Design 5 also includes a piano. Additional inscriptions are "Pride, Culture, Heritage, History, National Park Service, and 1916-2016." This is reverse 5 and reverse 6. Reverse 7 portrays one of two large carved (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 58 wood statues or kaewe that overlook the bay at PuUhonua O Honaunau National Historical Park in Hawaii. The palm trees, ubiquitous in this park, are represented by a pair of stylized palm fronds at the bottom of the design. Additional inscriptions are "Culture, Heritage, History, National Park Service, 1916-2016," and "Pu-Uhonua O Honaunau." Reverse 8 depicts the impressive of large kaewe overlooking the bay at Pu-Uhonua O Honaunau and includes the inscriptions "Culture, Heritage, History, National Park Service, 1916-2016," and "Pu-Uhonua O Honaunau." Reverse 9 depicts an acorn woodpecker, black oak branch, and acorns, an acorn-gathering basket, and winnowing baskets styled after the Monolake baskets and Monolake-style grinding stone and pestle representing the Native American heritage within Yosemite National Park. It contains the inscriptions "Pride, Heritage, Culture," and "History." And that concludes the silver reverse. MS. LANNIN: Erik, would you like to speak to the silver, please? (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 59 MR. JANSEN: Thank you, Madame Chair. of all, this is the signature coin of the set. is the high-volume coin. First This It's in a price point which is more accessible to, I think, the public, certainly always been the popular one. I'll be very short and direct. I am extraordinarily disappointed and I think we brought it on ourselves. I'm not going to fault the artists. I'm going to fault the narrowness and perhaps even the narrow enforcement or assertion of the narrative that was provided. Quite honestly, no issue with "Pride, Heritage, Culture, History," people-oriented, makes a lot of sense to me. But I think to then say I want a Tuskegee Airman, I want an American dancer, I want a Latin dancer, I want a jazz historic site as the key features for the National Park Service is breathtaking to me. I think that is so far off the mark as to cause me to say start over and send it back. MS. LANNIN: Herman. Wait. Herman, before you talk, Erik, you wanted to consider one of the designs for the gold coin for the silver one. Would you like to address that now since you don't seem to (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 60 be -MR. JANSEN: No. I'll let the art that we have at hand speak and I'm not going to second-guess the artists. MR. LEADBETTER: But you're not happy with it so -MR. JANSEN: No. I honestly would be disappointed with putting any of this artwork on the signature piece for the National Park Service. MS. LANNIN: So you did like -- MR. JANSEN: Obverse 1 and 2 at least have a bright symbol which one could say is not a picture. It drives towards the topic of the National Park Service as a jewel of this country enjoyed by the people. But that narrative wasn't given and so we didn't get any. We got a couple from an artist who dared step out of bounds from what we gave him and 1 and 2 on the obverse I think come closest to a workable theme. I don't really care for the design. I think they're a little busy and I think to coin a phrase, I think they're a waste of an ounce of silver. MS. LANNIN: Herman. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 61 MR. VIOLA: Thank you, Madame Chairman. I'm not going to say I agree but these are pretty weak designs and I was hoping for something -- okay, yeah, this works. Yeah, I would have to agree that these are overall pretty weak designs and yet the opportunity for doing something wonderful is right here. From my personal experience, I have been a tour guide and study leader at Yellowstone Park many times and so, you know, the boy with the binoculars; boy, I've seen that a lot of times and the kids get so excited so that could work. And, of course, Old Faithful -- Old Faithful is not as faithful as it used to be but it's still a great symbol and, you know, every time I've gone there, you can certainly see a bison or two wandering around. So, yeah, I mean that really represents, if you want to have them, obverses. The reverses I thought were all pretty, pretty weak and you always have to be very careful when you put Native American designs on coins frankly. For example, the woman here with the beaded headband, you've got to be aware that most tribes didn't have (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 62 headbands. They were an invention of Hollywood when they didn't use real Indians in their movies and they had to have something, a way to keep the wig on, and somehow it's become part of the stereotype of what Indian women look like. So again, that's why you have to be very cautious with all of those. And so of the reverses, kind of what I liked best were these statues from Hawaii. And I thought, you know, if we're going to have this as a three-coin set, we want to kind of represent the whole of, let's say, spectrum of what the Park Service is involved with. And that's all I really have to say on that. MS. LANNIN: Jeanne, go back to you. MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: Okay, thank you. When I look at number 1 and 2, I think this is a attribute that we're trying to have the youth participate in here, but I feel like this is not necessarily embracing what America is in terms of portraying these portraits. So I'm not really excited about it. I'm more inclined to go with number 5. like the representation of the park. I wish the (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 I Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 63 grizzly, if that's what we have, is depicted a little more like a grizzly bear and not a dog. Sorry. And I also like number 8 because it is just so singular a representative of a park. I think that number 5, because it does have "Centennial" is a good indication. I don't like this geyser business in number 3. It's difficult to know it's a geyser. It kind of looks like a tree or -- it just doesn't look like what I think the artist was trying to portray which is, you know, steam and smoke and whatever. So I'm not happy with that even though the design is singular and positive and very powerful, it just doesn't come off to me as a geyser. If we go to the reverses, I have to agree with Herman on many of his statements about depicting Native Americans. I also liked the Hawaiian figures, the kaewe because it gives us something more than just what we know about, you know, Yellowstone and Yosemite. everywhere. It helps us understand that the parks are And when I look at 5 and 6, you know, I just don't think those are very strong designs. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 64 I also think number 9 is very inclusive although I don't think it would strike up very well. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, Jeanne. Heidi. When I look at these, I'm looking at these as pairs, so what I like for the obverse depends on the reverse rather than just singular picks from each category. The one that attracts me the most is obverse 2. I actually really like this design. I think it's really charming and it achieves what we talked about in our last meeting about this, that we wanted to express the scope of the National Park Service that most people don't realize, that it includes the Bridge, etcetera. But yet we don't want to get into this quagmire of trying to portray everything but the kitchen sink. this is a nice balance. So I think It has a variety of things without trying to have everything. It has the binoculars showing the things that are far away and the microscope that shows the things that are close up, the big and the small, the natural element of the buffalo versus the manmade bridge. I think this (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 65 incorporates everything quite nicely and shows the excitement of the child. I might like this better as a clad because we talked earlier that that would be the child's piece, and I can see this matched up with one of the reverses we're going to see coming up in the next set. But I really like this design and I hope that this gets some support. If I like design number 2, then I also like reverse number 2 because this continues the diversity. Without the obverse, then number 2 becomes a little narrow but if we have obverse 2, then reverse 2 also works. My hesitation here are the words "heritage, culture," and "pride" I don't feel our essential to this design. I think they're kind of stuck in and they're very, very small, so it wouldn't add to the design but maybe take away. We could take out those words, make that ribbon wider and put "centennial" there. I like the fact that it has the logo included in here. There was a suggestion that this logo be added to obverse 2 but again, I like these logos on the reverse, just not on the obverses. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 66 So if we could talk obverse 3 which is the stakeholder preference, again, I think this is a little narrow because it's just the stereotypical geyser and a very stiff looking little buffalo, so it would depend on what we pick for the reverse. So if obverse 3 is our direction, then it would make sense to go with reverse 7 or 8 because this shows a scope between the western and the tropical so that would make sense, but they only make sense together. On obverse 5, I feel like this is two postcard again, too much landscape. I like obverse 7. this could also be a reverse. I think this is nice and If we had the binoculars on one side, this could be what he's looking at through the binoculars. That would make sense as an obverse-reverse. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: MS. WASTWEET: I like that idea. On design obverse 8, while we can see this large -- we know what this is, I'm afraid that it is open to misinterpretation that it looks like a cut down tree when people see this on the coin. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 67 On obverse 1, Herman, this is why we love having you on the committee because these are things that I didn't see. It's a beautiful drawing but I don't think it fits the bill for the reasons stated. The music designs, 5 and 6, they're nice designs but I don't think they're right for this project. As far as the stakeholder preference on number 4, I think this is just too busy. It's trying to be too much and adding a soldier, the Tuskegee Airman, for example, it muddles the message. a lot of lettering going on. It's got I'm not in support of that. So, I could go with obverse 2 with reverse or possibly obverse 7 as it's backing. Or if we go with 3, then I could back that up with the Hawaiian back. And April, I'd like to compliment you on your pronunciation. MS. STAFFORD: MS. LANNIN: I practiced. Okay. Thank you, Heidi. Robert. MR. HOGE: Thank you, Mary. I would echo my colleagues' statements on these things again. I think (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 68 number 2 is probably the most appealing of these deigns but I do like number 8 because I think as a design, even if it does look like a bit like the stump of a cut tree, I think it could be made to work and this seems fairly strong. One thing that I'd note about these obverse designs is that they tend to look like reverses. Many of them have exergual areas that they're emphasizing and landscapes themes which don't seem to work as well as obverses as some other things might. On the reverse numbers 7 and 8, the stylized Hawaiian heads, these look more like obverse designs in a way. My favorite, however, is -- and I agree with Heidi and her comments on number 2. I think t his might be the best possibility for the reverses because it does have the National Park Service emblem and it seems to be quite a pleasing design. MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Thank you. Gary. Thank you, Madame Chair. I'm going to address an issue I've addressed in the past and that is that when it comes to these multi-coin commemorative programs, I think the way we approach it (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 69 is way too complex. And I want to remind the committee, and please never forget this, never forget that when Congress formed us, our primary charge is to advise the Secretary on the designs of coins, national medals, and Congressional gold medals. And in a way, when we are presented with portfolios -- and I know the staff has some issues with how they interact with the AIP artists -- I believe that's the reason -- but when we approach these programs and certain designs are already categorized in the certain denominations, we cede some of our advising authority. That's a concern to me. I think we'd have a much simpler, straightforward discussion today if we were given a portfolio of obverses, a portfolio of reverses, and then we, as a committee, would use our advising authority to advise, advise to the fullest, advise to which designs belong with which denominations. that's a concern of mine. So I hope after I'm gone that that's something that both the staff and the committee will give some serious consideration to, because this is way too complex. And I'm afraid in the complexity, (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 70 we perhaps -- and with limited time -- we lose the opportunity to really look at these for the value of their art and where they belong in the denominational scheme. So going to the designs, I know the Park Service favors obverse number 3. It might -- and did I understand that the idea was to remove the bison and put the logo? MS. STAFFORD: That was a suggested edit by our liaison. MR. MARKS: Okay. I'm troubled with this design and I'm even more troubled if you remove the bison, because the bison right now acts to give a sense of proportionality and scale and also intuitively helps the viewer understand the environment and gives them a chance to understand that this form in the background is the geyser because there's a bison there. So I think that helps inform the viewer. However, others have voiced this, the geyser itself, trying to render that on a coin like this, my immediate thought when I looked at this was it looks (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 71 like, being from Montana where I've experienced 46 below zero, this reminds me of taking a bottle of root beer, shaking it up, pulling the cap off, and see it instantly freeze. That's what this looks like. So I'm just not sure this works. And I also agree with some of my committee members that there are none of the obverse designs here that I really feel for this flagship coin for this series really are appropriate and that's disappointing. However, I want to suggest something to the committee that I think can pull a big win out of the hat for us on the silver dollar. go to two reverse designs. please and hang with me. Let's go to number 2, Try not to think I'm crazy until you hear my whole idea here. obverse. And I want to I see this as an Inscriptions would have to be changed but I love the flow, you know, with the roundness of the coin. I like the ethnicity of the dancer. has a powerful message. It's beautiful. I think it If you think about the negative space that's there and with the frosted figure that you'd see in proof, I think this is wonderful but made more so if you pair it with (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 72 reverse 5. Think about the flow of the design, the head of the base instrument, the curve of the end of the trumpet, the banjo and how it curves and you pair that with that obverse that I'm -- well, the reverse I'm suggesting as obverse, I think you have a wonderful, artistic combination here that is rich with illustration, with the ideas that we want to get across with "pride, culture, heritage." It's alive. It's rich. It speaks to celebration, to -- it just -- it says a lot to me. And inscriptions, you know, have to be sorted out but I think the basic designs, if you pair those two together, I think this is a homerun silver dollar for this series, and I hope that we can give that some consideration. Depending on how it all goes, I might even, at the end, offer a motion just to see where it goes. But I think, in my mind, that's the only way that we salvage the designs we were given here, but I think that would be a wonderful way to go. So, anyway, those are my designs -- or my suggestions. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Gary. Michael, are (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 73 you there? MR. BUGEJA: closely. Yes, I am and following quite percent. Was that Gary that just (inaudible) -MS. LANNIN: Yes, it was. MR. BUGEJA: Gary, I agree with you 100 It's not strange. As much as I like what Heidi is proposing, we've got to be really careful here. If you pair obverse number 3, which is the preferred by the Park Service, with reverse number 2, I guarantee you it will be (inaudible) by PCGS and NGC mistakenly with the reverse as the obverse and the obverse as the reverse. In these designs, there are - - this is not a new thing, you know, and while we're very gentle on the artists, I'm not going to be at this time. There is basic coin design. obverse and then there is the reverse. There is the I prepared, when I first came on this committee, a long presentation -- it's now available on Kindle -- on what is an obverse and what is a reverse and what is basic coin design. But what we are getting are just whatever Congress says should be on the obverse and (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 74 then the artist is free to draw whatever she likes, and then whatever Congress says should be on the reverse and the artist is free… That's not what is going to make a coin. Reverse number 2 is an elegant obverse. Everything Gary said I agree with wholeheartedly. I think it's very intriguing to go with reverse number 5 as the reverse. combination. I really like what he said about that He said it more eloquently than I do. Now if we go with something like Heidi said, obverse number 2 with the binoculars can pair up well with reverse number 2. So if you don't like what Gary and I are saying about reverse number 2, I would suggest then to make that less of a head side of a coin, to reduce the image of the woman and then move the Park Service emblem into the resulting white space. That would make a reverse and simply because the boy's head will be larger and more prominent. Now if you take a look at topic and theme, obverse number 2 which Heidi had preferred does really jive well with reverse number 2 in terms of topic and theme. However, the artistic flow that Gary said (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 75 about reverse number 2 being the obverse and reverse number 5 as the reverse has some mighty fine lines to it. So it's important, once again -- I mean so much effort went into these designs and so little numismatic knowledge is accompanying this wonderful artwork. It is wonderful artwork but it's not numismatic artwork. So I'm hoping that we will learn how to not only tell a story with obverse and reverse and on occasion the edge, the three-sided canvases of a coin, but also topic and theme and what the planchet allows, what the planchet doesn't allow and what we typically see as an obverse versus the symbolic nature of the reverse. Thank you, Madame Chairman. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much, Michael. We're really getting crunched for time so I'm going to turn this over to Tom. MR. SCARINCI: Oh, I'm sorry, Don. Donald. I would absolutely entertain a motion to do the -- I'm sorry -- I would absolutely be interested in entertaining the motion to do the coin that Gary suggests. I think that's unequivocally the most pleasing design combination, (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 76 and I think -- look, I think here's the problem, and the problem all comes down to we have, you know, onesided objects here, not two-sided objects, which they really are. The coin should tell a story but the story doesn’t -- shouldn't really all be told on side. And there seems to be pressure to tell the story on one side. You know, obverse number one, you know, there's a story being told on one side. Well, why not having -- why not the depiction of the kid and the guy on one side and on the other side, you know, the little bison and the geyser. it all on one side? I mean why must we get It creates a storyboard. my problem with obverse number 2. That's You know, great to have the kid with binoculars; you know, nice idea and I would have said, ooh-ah, law enforcement's do that if it didn't have the little -- if it didn’t have to have the bison and, you know, all the stuff in it on the obverse, if we could have just put stuff in the refers so that here's the kid with his binoculars; turn it around, here's what he's looking at. that would have been a great coin. I think Fitting it all in (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 77 one side doesn't -- you know, kind of loses the coin. So I think there's -- you know, if you want the most artistic, you know, if you -- the other problem is with what we're doing right now is we're doing all the parks. I mean we've got parks, every year we've got parks, we got five parks and we got them n big sizes and we got them in little sizes, and we got parks, parks, parks, parks, parks. So I don't know that we need to have anymore landscape designs on this set of commemoratives. And I think what we could do is be a little artistic; let's not do the landscapes; let's not do the animals; let's not do what we -- let's no repeat what we're doing, you know, in five coins a year for the last several years and for the foreseeable several years. Let's instead do an artistic combination. So I would absolutely support a motion when it's made by Gary and seconded by Mike, hopefully, that we do obverse -- reverse 2 as the obverse and reverse 5 as the reverse. And at least you have a pretty coin and you have something we don't really already have over and over and over again. You have, (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 78 you know, people -- you have people and concepts as opposed to landscapes. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Donald. And why don't we move to Tom quickly and then he can make reality happen. MR. URAM: Chairman. Okay. Thank you, Madame And just for the record, Mike Moran's choices were obverse 5 and reverse 6. Without going into some of the detail, that was his bottom line after review. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Thank you. I, too, have looked at the obverses here and my concern with number 3 is the way we' are doing our frosting right now, I'm really concerned about the root beer looking that Gary had mentioned there. On one of the National Park quarters now with the road going through that flower is just so frosted, you can't -- you know, you can't delineate. And so I think the same thing could happen. With this being a larger size, having said that, and when you open the box of the three-piece set, when you have the gold and the dollar in the center and then the half, I (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 79 like the fact that the obverse could be the natural part of the Park Service. And so I'm leaning towards number 5 but more 5A because when you open the box, you would have the logo on there as well. And so with the two jugated images on the gold, when you open this, you get the bear and, you know, not against anything about the people and so forth but animals tend to sell better than people. And the only thing that would have been better on this is probably if we had the full grizzly. And I have to say that this is a much better rendition than water heaters at we saw a year or so ago when someone tried to give us a teddy bear instead of a good-looking grizzly here, so… I just think that it would look great as far as part of the entire series. And then having the wildlife side, then I would go to the reverse number 5 which has the cultural side and put the two of those together giving the wildlife side as well as the cultural side. Thank you, Madame Chairman. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Tom. To move this along, does anyone have a motion? (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 80 MR. MARKS: Pardon me? MS. LANNIN: I said to move the discussion along, since we're running short on time, would anyone like to make a motion? MR. MARKS: I'll make a motion. MR. BUGEJA: Bugeja, Mary. I will -- this is Michael I want to make a motion that reverse number 2 be the chosen obverse of the coin with whatever reverse the committee then chooses according to what Gary had said. MS. MILIO: Is there a second? MS. LANNIN: Is there a second? (No second voiced.) MS. LANNIN: All right. No second. Okay, no second. Gary. MR. MARKS: I would move that reverse 2 with change to inscriptions as appropriate be coupled with -- and use that as an obverse -- be coupled with reverse 5 as a reverse. MR. SCARINCI: MR. BUGEJA: I'll second that. Ill second that. MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: You already have a (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 81 motion. You already have Michael's motion first. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It didn't get a second. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It died for a second. MS. LANNIN: It didn't get a second. MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: You didn't second it? MS. LANNIN: It did not get a second. MR. BUGEJA: Yeah, which is why I want to - you know, I wanted to give the committee a little bit more freedom to choose the reverse rather than -MS. LANNIN: Okay. MR. BUGEJA: -- summing up everything with an obverse and reverse -MS. LANNIN: SO we've got Gary's motion right now and so do we have a second for Gary's motion? Do I hear you say second, Michael? MR. BUGEJA: Yes. MS. LANNIN: Okay. I'm seconding it. I need one more scoring sheet because Jeanne does not have a scoring sheet. Can we vote on the motion? MR. MARKS: MS. LANNIN: All those in favor. MR. WEINMAN: All those in favor, aye. Can we have discussion before (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 82 we vote? MR. MARKS: Do we need to? Can we see where we vote first? MS. LANNIN: Yeah, yeah. We are -- we have 40 minutes to get one more coin done, so should we vote on the motion, please? All in favor, say aye. (Whereupon, chorus of ayes voiced.) MS. LANNIN: Any nays? (Whereupon, some nays voiced.) MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: Six -- MR. WEINMAN: Okay, so we got half and half. MS. LANNIN: -- six and three. MR. WEINMAN: Six to three? Six and four. MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: I'm a nay. MR. MARKS: Motion carried. MS. LANNIN: She's a nay. MR. MARKS: MS. LANNIN: No, six to four. What's that? She's a nay so six to four; motion carries. Okay. break. I don't think we have time for a Can we get to the clad? (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 83 MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: (Inaudible) we still vote -MR. JANSEN: Madame Chair? MS. LANNIN: Huh? MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: We're still voting (inaudible) -MR. JANSEN: Madame Chair? MS. LANNIN: We have to vote. Yes, I'm sorry, Erik. MR. JANSEN: The motion has determined the coin, I think, hasn't it? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah, so we don't need to -MS. LANNIN: Right, and we need to turn our MR. JANSEN: Why are we voting? votes in. The motion has determined the coin. MR. MARKS: MS. LANNIN: What do you think? Yeah, there's no reason to vote. There's no reason to vote? Greg -- MR. JANSEN: I just wish we could have had some discussion before that unilateral vote was taken. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 84 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah. I don't like this -MR. JANSEN: I felt that that was kind of ramrodded through. MS. LANNIN: Greg. MR. WEINMAN: We were agnostic on it from our standpoint -MS. LANNIN: Okay. MR. WEINMAN: -- but I think you may have a request -MR. URAM: I just felt that that would be an add-on to the existing images that we have to choose from, that we would just add that on to our list that you proposed. I make a motion to that. MS. LANNIN: I'm sorry. I don't understand the motion. MR. URAM: I'm making a motion that we add it to the mix of designs, that we add that on too -UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: MR. URAM: So we're not voting? -- and make your complete choices accordingly. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 85 MR. SCARINCI: AS a point of information, that's what I thought we did. I didn't know we were going to select the -MS. LANNIN: Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought we were voting only on -MR. MARKS: Wait a minute, wait a minute. MR. LEADBETTER: MR. MARKS: -- the silver. I made the motion. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm sorry, this is not a good -MR. MARKS: The motion was just as I stated it. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: MR. MARKS: And it's not good. So if we do something else, Madame Chair, respectfully, then there needs to be a different motion. MS. LANNIN: Would you like to repeat your motion, please, Gary? MR. MARKS: Well, my motion was to utilize reverse number 2 with appropriate inscription changes as the obverse and pair it with reverse number 5 as the reverse. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 86 MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: For the silver coin? For the silver one-dollar coin, yes. MR. WEINMAN: As the committee's recommendation? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: MS. LANNIN: Yes. (Inaudible) -- MR. MARKS: So -That motion carried. MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Yes, THE INVESTIGATOR: did. So correct me if I'm wrong but I think if we do something different, there needs to be a different motion. MR. WEINMAN: You could make a motion to reconsider if you think you misunderstood the motion. MR. SCARINCI: Yeah. Would it be okay if I make a motion to -- I didn't want to cut off any discussion. I simply thought we were, you know, to see if there was a majority of people that agreed with this and then we can talk about it and if there are. So I didn't mean to cut off -- or to suggest that we cut off any discussion. So I wouldn't mind a motion to reconsider, you know, and -- that's not really what (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 87 I'm trying to do. It's not a motion to reconsider. MR. MARKS: Well -- MR. SCARINCI: I just want to add this into the mix so that people can then discuss it and vote on it. MR. WEINMAN: Why don't you make a motion to revise the ballot and have a discussion? MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: Sorry, say again, Greg. MR. WEINMAN: correct. Can I do that? You can -- I think that's Gary made a motion, it was seconded, it was voted upon, it passed. Anything you do now is supplemental to it unless you want to reconsider it but supplemental is fine. If you want to make a motion to revise the ballot to make this an obverse design that you can vote on and then discuss it, you can make that -- you can bring that to the table. MS. MILIO: If I might, Madame Chair, I think it's important that members don't feel like they were truncated. I very much support this pairing but at the price of the committee, I would rather us do it in a more orderly fashion. So, you know, if we need (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 88 to move in a different direction, that's fine. I hope this still prevails. MS. LANNIN: Okay. I'm sorry if you felt -- if anyone in the room felt that they were cut off. I would like to make a motion that we reopen for five minutes to discuss Gary's motion and the pairing and any other discussion. the clad coin. Heidi? And then we need to move on to Do I have a second to that? Is that Okay. MR. SCARINCI: All in favor. MR. JANSEN: Erik. MS. LANNIN: All in favor, aye. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are we doing? MR. JANSEN: We're opening to discuss. MS. LANNIN: We're opening to discuss a new motion, okay. Gary. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: MR. JANSEN: Discussion is open. I think a leadership coin like this for the National Park Service needs an element of the natural world in it, and that does not necessarily an animal against a mountain on a landscape. Honestly, I think the young man -- with the designs we (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 89 have, with all due respect to obverses and reverses and maybe we have to re-jigger mottos and devices, with the devices we -- or the choices we have here, I see the young man with the eyeglasses as the natural world. And quite frankly, if only to anticipate what might happen, I think the collecting community is going to look at the New Orleans theme or whatever the musical theme here, is they're going to have headscratcher. And so I would argue I think we're serving our constituency, the collecting and the American public much better if we actually consider obverse 2 in the mix here. I'm not a fan of any of these designs but if we're going to make some sausage here, I want to make the best sausage I can. MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: Heidi. Michael, please mute your phone. MR. BUGEJA: MR. WEINMAN: It was muted. line. Oh, maybe somebody else on the My apologies. MS. WASTWEET: Looking ahead to the clad (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 90 that we're going to review in a moment here, perhaps the suggestion of reverse 2 and 5 would make a better clad piece if you felt like obverse 2 is an appropriate silver piece. And I have a design in mind from the clad selection that I think would pair well to the boy with the binoculars. So perhaps looking at this in a more holistic fashion might achieve what we want. MS. LANNIN: Jeanne, it's your comment. MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: Yes, I do. I feel that Gary's motion would make a beautiful coin and this is, you know, a very good example of how to make a coin but maybe not address, in my opinion, what we're doing with the National Parks. I really feel strongly about having some sense of the park being on there. Even though, Donald, we do have parks and parks and parks, I do think that this is about the National Park and it's a 100-year centennial celebration of those parks all together. I think that we need culture and heritage and all of those words; it's very important. But I don't think that that particular coin (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 91 is going to say this is a National Park and I think somehow we need to do that either by having some symbol, as in reverse 7, or, you know, obverse 5. Those to me say parks. I think I agree with Erik when you say it's going to be a head-scratcher, especially with 5 and 6 reverse. They're good designs but I don't -- I just don't think this says to me National Park or to some of the people that I've spoken with that go to National Parks that we want to see, something that represents parks. So thank you, Madame Chairman, for listening. MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: really do. Thank you. So -- Mary, just quickly? Gary, yes. I appreciate that, Jeanne; I I think part of what we're trying to do with this program, and I would guess the National Park Service would agree, it's an opportunity to educate Americans that the Park Service is more than what some people think it is. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: MR. MARKS: Exactly, exactly. The Park Service, while it's (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 92 wonderful to go to a place like Glacier Park or Yellowstone or Yosemite, there is so much more to the Park Service than just that, and I think this is just the opportunity. With six coin faces, surely we have opportunity here to represent a number of the aspects of the National Park Service. And in this instance, we have an opportunity to seize on this whole -- the idea of music and dance which is legitimately as much a part of the Park Service as Yellowstone. So I think we miss an opportunity if we just stick with foliage and animals. I think there is more to the Park Service. We have a wonderful opportunity to create a coin that I believe would even compete for coin of the year. It's very artistic. It's fresh. The United States Mint has never produced anything as my motion suggested. So I'm hopeful that this is still something that can prevail. Heidi, did I understand you're suggesting that we move to the half dollar? I prefer it on the silver dollar but in the interest of finding a solution here, if it ended up on the half dollar, (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 93 okay. But I think we really miss an opportunity if we don't seize these two designs and put them on the same coin. I think the gold would be way too small because of the lines that we want to utilize and I'll say even celebrate. This is a happy coin and I think this is one that would make people smile and educate them about the Park Service. MS. LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: Donald. I wanted to hear where everyone was coming form on this, you know, because that's how we do things here, so we can see if we're -- if you could persuade those -- the six of us who voted for this especially. And I would simply say that, you know, the parks about people. the parks are. That's what The parks aren't -- and we have 50 coins by the time we're done all about landscapes and animals and not people. This is an opportunity to talk about the parks as people, you know, and I think we should grab the opportunity. I think this is a pretty design, unequivocally for all the reasons Gary said; no need to repeat it. So now that I've heard where you're coming from -- and I think we should (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 94 preserve these binoculars because I'm sure you're thinking the same thing I was thinking, that let's tell a story with the binoculars; that's great. I mean you got binoculars; let's tell the story. So let's hold that binocular thought and let's maybe see if we can make the same kind of motion to do the clad using the binoculars for the clad, right, so we can get the binoculars in the clad. And for now, let me renew the motion. Let me again, I guess, make a new motion but this time the motion to vote to adopt the coin design with obverse 2 -- I'm sorry reverse 2 becomes the obverse, and reverse 5 becomes the reverse. So this time, after having listened to everybody, this would be a vote for that to be the coin; is that correct? And that would be a motion. MR. BUGEJA: I'll second. MS. LANNIN: Okay. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We need to call a vote. MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: Call a vote. We voted. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 95 MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: Call a vote. MS. MILIO: All done, so can we please -Discussion, Mary? I'm doing this -- in the interest of addressing the committee as a whole, I really like Donald's idea of looking at those, but seriously, looking at the binoculars for the clad. I think that would be a wonderful clad design -MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Great. -- more appropriate for that. So let's not lose that thought in the event that this motion carries. MS. LANNIN: Okay. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're representing (inaudible) -MS. LANNIN: So -- MR. SCARINCI: I think we're saying revise the motion -MR. MARKS: the same thing. Yeah. I was going to say that's It just came full circle back around. MR. WEINMAN: Yeah, I think -- I don't think they need to vote again because -- (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 96 MR. MARKS: MS. LANNIN: Yeah, time has passed. MR. MARKS: Yeah, time has passed. We -- thoughts may have changed -MR. WEINMAN: MR. MARKS: Okay. -- if we had not voted on the motion. MR. WEINMAN: I have no objection if you recall the question. MS. LANNIN: So would like to revote again on -UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: MS. LANNIN: Yes. All in favor of the motion, aye, right; or no, there's nothing. We voted. We're done. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We voted. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: MS. LANNIN: We voted. No, I did not. We're done. Let's go to clad. MR. JANSEN: With all due respect, Madame Chair -MS. LANNIN: Yes. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 97 MR. JANSEN: the motion. -- I don't think we voted on We had an intervening motion to reopen it. MS. LANNIN: Okay. MR. JANSEN: And the motion has come up again; worded the same but it's a different point in time. MR. WEINMAN: Go ahead. I recommend calling the question. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, there's a motion the table. MR. WEINMAN: table. Do -- there's a motion the Do a call the question by hands. MR. LEADBETTER: Call the question. Okay. All those in favor? MR. BUGEJA: Aye. MS. LANNIN: Okay. MS. STAFFORD: So -- I don't think everyone was paying -- yeah, okay. MS. LANNIN: So this is the voting on the motion for the obverse and reverse in the pairing, okay. One, two; passes. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 98 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: MS. LANNIN: Okay. Six, okay. Let us get to the clad. If we can get out of here by 12:15, I think that we will be able to stay on time. MS. STAFFORD: April. Starting with the clad obverse, obverse 1 features a hiker discovering the majesty of the wilderness and a small child discovering a frog hidden in ferns in celebration of the diversity and breadth of the National Park Service. Obverse 2 highlights the historical, educational, and recreational opportunities children have throughout the National Park Service. This design depicts school children departing a bus greeted by a park ranger. It includes the Washington Monument in the background. Obverse 3 and 3A depict tourists at the National Cherry Blossom Festival, includes the Thomas Jefferson Memorial in the background and cherry blossoms at the top of the design. This is 3 and 3A. Observe 4 depicts friends whitewater rafting through the Grand Canyon National Park. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 99 Obverse 5 depicts kayakers enjoying the majesty of Acadia National Park. Obverse 6 depicts two kayakers, one gesturing towards El Capitan as the other take in the scenery. In the background, the artist juxtaposed urban skylines with rugged landscape to underscore the importance of National Park preservation and conservation. Obverse 8 depicts a National Park landscape in the background, a banner inscribed "National Park Service Centennial" and the National Park Service logo. Obverse 9 features a hiker enjoying the wilderness and the National Park Service logo. The rays coming from the emblem represent the breadth of the National Park Service system across the United States. And obverse 10 features the National Park Service logo and includes the additional inscriptions "Preservation," "Education" and "1916." This is the liaison's preferred design with a suggested edit that they would like the committee to consider, which is to (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 100 substitute the inscriptions "Preservation" and "Education" instead with "Stewardship" and "Recreation." Moving on to the clad reverse: Reverses 1 and 2 depict a ranger pointing out the cliff dwellings to a younger visitor of Mesa Verde National Park in Colorado. Reverses 3, 4, and 5 depict a full body or head view of a dinosaur skeleton as may be seen at the Dinosaur National Monument in Utah. Here is design 3 which incorporates the additional inscriptions "Inspire the Future II" and "Explore the Past II." Here's reverse 4 and 5. Reverse 6 depicts a Ford Model T and the Roosevelt Gate with the mountain range of Yellowstone National Park in the background. The Ford Model T was the first car to legally enter the park before its establishment. Reverse 7 depicts fossil images of a fish, a leaf, an ammonite and dinosaur footprints within a polygon symbolizing the value of preserving our natural resources and connecting visitors to the national Park Service's education and science initiatives. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 101 Reverse 8 features a stylized representation of an oak leaf symbolizing our National Parks. The oak leaf appears to be examined under a magnifying glass revealing both the leaf's surface, texture, and the ladybug that sits upon it. Reverse 9 and 9A depict hands holding a conifer symbolizing natural resources of the parks being passed from one generation to the next. The Tetons within Signal Mountain, Wyoming appear in the background. Reverse 10 features the National Park Service logo and contains the inscriptions "Discovery," "Education," "Science," and "Learning." Reverses 11 and 11A feature a family of bike riders on National Park Service trails taking a break from urban living. A city view of Crissy Field of the Golden Gate National Recreation Area in San Francisco can be seen in the background of these designs. is reverse 11 and 11A. This Eleven-a is the liaison's preferred design with a suggested edit to remove the inscription "Stewardship" and "Recreation" should those inscriptions be featured on the obverse as they (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 102 are on the preferred obverse of the liaison. And more importantly, the liaison would like the committee to consider substituting the Golden Gate Bridge here with the St. Louis Gateway Arch. And that concludes the clad portfolio. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, April. Jeanne. MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: Okay. Well, once again, I think that the artists need to be commended for presenting some lovely pieces here of nice designs, illustrations. But I think, again, I have to agree with Michael Bugeja about looking at this as a coin. So we need to think of more simplicity, less storytelling or less storyboarding. And with that in mind, my preference for this clad coin is number 1. I think we have the discovery of a child looking at this little frog -- now this may be too much information but I think we're adding some people into the mix. The other piece that I think would probably be more confusing but it's certainly the artist did a tremendous amount in number 4, lots of information but in my opinion, terribly exciting. We haven't seen the imagery go outside of the circle very often so I think (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 103 this is kind of a fun piece. As to number 10, I think it would be better to have that logo on the reverse. I'd like to see something a little different on the obverse. Going to the reverse, I think that these coins really -- we're missing appealing to the general public and this is an opportunity to do that. like dinosaurs. Kids do So I'm looking very much at number 4 and number 3 for reverse but especially for number 9, I think when we look at number 9, that is just an absolutely beautiful representation of what we're trying to do, conserve, inspire. And I don't know if we have to say a whole lot as we do in number 9A. This is -- I believe, my choice is 9 for reverse. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Erik. MR. JANSEN: Thank you. Sticking to obverses are obverse, the topic reverses are reverse as the theme and then carrying that forward to the reality that I think this coin maybe is -- and I don't run a gift shop in a National Park; been a docent and other things but I've never done that -- I would think at the price point of probably, what, $10.00 plus or (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 104 minus, this is the coin of choice across the country in the gift shop. And so to my mind, we almost have a marketing obligation to make sure this coin says "National Park Service Centennial." And I think that probably belongs on the obverse, not the reverse. So I put that out there and so I look at the obverse designs and immediately, based on the way they're designed and laid here in front of us, we're kind of with number 1, although it doesn't say "centennial," I do like the natural world, the childlike discovery there, the experiential implications of experience your world through the National Park Service. I think number 8 is a less active form of the same thing. one does. It doesn't have quite the feel that I appreciate the utility of design number 10 on the obverse but I think it's yielding -- it's taking utility over impact. I think design 1 one of the choices we have here is far and away the better impact, and I think it beats binoculars quite frankly. The child, the young girl experiencing her world, you know, that's kind of the binocular on this coin and it (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 105 works. I love the layout. I'm not sure where I would add "centennial." MS. LANNIN: Number 1. MR. JANSEN: Obverse number 1 -- I had the thought of dropping a 100 in kind of behind the banner, the number 100. It probably clutters the design but -- yeah, I mean you're cringing, Heidi, and I cringe as I say it because I don't see anywhere else -- I don't want to violate the negative space that's left, so I'm not sure what I'd do on that regard. When I go to the reverses here, again, I'm trying to do a coin that's going to take a 9 or an 8 or an 11-year-old and go "Mommy, daddy, I want one of those." And so I'm wondering -- trees and hands are nice, ladybugs are better. I think they all trump Model-T's or -- well, dinosaurs; it's hard to trump a dinosaur in a child's mind even though I think that's probably not as an appropriate or a really broadly applicable image for the National Park Service. So I kind of gravitate to 7 on the reverse, 7, 8, and to a lesser degree, 9 or 10, pick the one that you like in (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 106 terms of layout and space and sculptability. Is that a word? MS. LANNIN: Yeah. MR. JANSEN: Okay, thank you. I come out on this. That's where I want a coin that moves mountains of volumes at a price point in the National Park Service retail shops. MR. LEADBETTER: MR. VIOLA: Thank you, Erik. Okay. Herman. Well, I guess we've lost the binoculars but UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: MS. LANNIN: MR. VIOLA: No, we haven't. No, we haven't. No, we haven't? (Laughter.) MR. VIOLA: to discuss. I'll leave that for other folks I'd like to see them but with what we've got to work with here, I agree number 1 for the obverse is probably the most appealing. But I've worked at the Smithsonian now for 40 years and so here I see all these kids all the time and this is exactly the way I see every day. greeting people. They got the park ranger My boss one time counted 150 school (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 107 buses parked along the Mall. So, you know, I know it's not the one we want but it really is very realistic. So I'd substance abuse I'd go with, you know, obverse 1. And again, how you make this work well with putting the symbol of the Park Service in there but, you know, again, being at the Smithsonian, that dinosaur is so immensely popular with kids, and I know if you're trying to sell coins, you know, "Grandpa, buy that one for me," you know, and -- so I would say 3 or 4 or even 5, but I say 3 or 4 would probably be the best sellers. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you. One of the initiatives of this group and the Mint as a whole is to bring in some younger collectors and freshen up our offerings. And so of all of the designs that we're looking at over the three coins here, the one that was most exciting to me was the clad reverse 3 with the dinosaur. That's fresh and it's bold. It would read very well on a coin, the texture of the bones. It would sculpt up quite nicely and I love the sentiment there, "Inspire the Future to Explore the Past." sure about the little cave paintings. I'm not It's a good (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 108 idea but I don't think it's going to read on the coin. I could go either way. them in. I could take them out or leave I was really excited about seeing the dinosaur and like Herman said, "Grandpa, buy me that one." Kids are really going to love that and that's one of the goals of this group is to find something that kids are going to like. That's it right there. So pairing it, then going back to the binoculars as the obverse, you've got the kid, the excitement in his eyes, the diversity. You've got the buffalo in the background so you have the natural element plus the past. pairing. I think this is a great I would love to see that matched up. The clad obverse number 1, I like this design a lot. frog larger. It is a little busy. Maybe make the It's kind of a lot going on and it doesn’t say "centennial" but it does have the "1916." This one would be okay. The stakeholder preference of obverse 10, this, to me, is clearly a reverse design. I like this design but I don't see this as an obverse. And the preference of reverse 11, I don't (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 109 see this as attractive at all. If you think about this is actual size, you're just going to see the bicycles and it becomes about the bicycles. see the bridge in the background. I don't think it has the power of this dinosaur bones. pedestrian to me. You won't It's a bit I don't like this one. That, I think, wraps up my comments. I would suggest the binoculars paired with the dinosaur as my top pick. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Heidi. Okay. Robert. MR. HOGE: Thank you. I do think that the proposed idea of utilizing the boy with the binoculars as an obverse might work well, particularly if paired with a dinosaur reverse. For the dinosaur images, I'm a little concerned here with just what this is. What type of or what genre or species of carnosaur that might be. One might think tyrannosaur but it clearly is not and I wonder if the skeleton is actually -MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: It's not, correct. It's not -MR. HOGE: What? (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 110 MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: I don't believe that skeleton is correct for -MR. HOGE: I don't think. It's certainly not a tyrannosaur but what type carnosaur it is -MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: Right. It could be corrected though. MR. WEINMAN: MR. HOGE: It looks like an allosaurus. Might be an allosaurus. MR. WEINMAN: MR. HOGE: It's not a tyrannosaur, no. No, it's definitely not -- MR. WEINMAN: MR. HOGE: Yeah. -- but that might be a question. And Heidi's idea of dropping the pictographs I think would certainly be advisable if we were to adopt this type of design. I thought number 6 was interesting in the choice of the Model-T Ford because that particular model is actually from 100 years before. 1915 or 1916. That's even It was only two years in which one looked like that was made although the horn is not correct for a Model-T Ford. (Laughter.) (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 111 MR. HOGE: I liked the preferred obverse number 10 just because of its simplicity of giving emphasis to the National Park Service arrowhead logo. But I agree that this probably is not really appropriate for an obverse design. Some of these I think are really poorly chosen for coin designs. The drawings are interesting, evocative sometimes but if you look at obverse number 1 and number 2, those details would just be lost on a coin. no telling what would be seen. I mean there is The little tiny words now, I think I saw them when I looked at it -- oh, yes, cliff dwellers and life of a mason or something. I mean this is so microscopic, it's, you know, hardly worth even thinking about. MR. JANSEN: You're referring to reverse 1 and 2? MR. HOGE: MR. JANSEN: Yes. MR. HOGE: Okay. MS. LANNIN: That's really all. MR. MARKS: Gary. Thank you, Madam Chair. The discussion on this coin takes me back to when I was (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 112 10-years-old and I was first turned on to numismatics. And back then, the Mint didn't put out commemoratives. You know, I was stuck with Lincoln and, you know, Jefferson and all those guys but, you know, that somehow spoke to me and here we are today. But when I think about the opportunity to address a current issue in numismatics, and that is how do we get the younger generation energized and at the same time produce a huge win for the National Park Service and doing the same thing for them, the turning on children for all that the National Park Service offers them, I think this is a kid coin. This is a coin that's within the economic reality of many kids as compared to the precious metal coins that are also in the series. So Eric, I agree with you, the gift shop opportunity, that's this coin. So I think we serve ourselves and the National Park Service if we come up with a great kid coin. And so if we look at the silver obverse 2 with the binoculars and, you know, that kid's face right there, you know, if I'm a kid, 10-years-old, and I see a kid on a coin, oh, my gosh, (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 113 you know, because I live in an adult world; here's a kid on a coin and that's going to grab me. And then the dinosaur, out of the -- you know, knock it out of the park. This is one that, you know, I predict if we did this one with obverse 2 silver with reverse 3, the dinosaur bones, that's a huge success. It would be one of, I think, the more successful half dollars that the Mint ever produced. So, you know, I could spend time on others but we're short on it, so I want to focus on the positives here. I think we have another wonderful opportunity here with this clad coin. MS. LANNIN: Thanks, Gary. Thank you. Okay, Michael, are you around? MR. BUGEJA: Yeah, I've been around following things and I'd like to make an observation. I think it might be a point of order. I do what to honor your voting system and I'm not -- I hear people, as I am going to, say, speak about the binocular obverse silver number 2. But as a point of order, I would like to make that obverse 2 for the silver, the binoculars, obverse 11 on our score sheets for the (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 114 clad coin. And I don't know if that requires a special vote, but I'm going to put NPS BO11 on my score sheet for the binoculars number 2. And I'll highlight that in "red." The reason I want to go back to the binoculars is that it pairs in a storyline so exquisitely well with reverse number 3 or reverse number 4. We literally have a story being told with topic and theme without using the words, really, "Inspire the Future" and "Explore the Past." We have a binocular and explorer, a young person who will attract many coin sales. obverse, the heads. Numismatically, that's an When paired with the dinosaur on the reverse, either 3 or 4 -- I wouldn't go number 5 because that head design (inaudible) -- we get a wonderful story. And I also want to point out that the Australian current mint has really taken advantage of the resurgence of interest in dinosaurs. I know, the pop culture has, you know, the Jurassic movie on but I think it's -- I looked at all of our coins and could not find a similar image on any of our commemoratives (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 115 or coins. And having gone to school at South Dakota State University and having worked for United Press International in the Dakotas, I can tell you that this is very, very meaningful. So if we can't go with 11 as the obverse, that would be the binoculars from the previous discussion, to me then what pairs up with the dinosaur in a similar but not exact storyboard way, because we -- what the binoculars do is give us a sense of exploration of different dimension; that's why it pairs up so wonderfully with the dinosaur -- I would have to go with the only real obverse that we have from our artists, and that would b obverse number 1. It has pluses and it has minuses but given the dimensions again of the coin, the school bus, the people -- I mean 4 is an interesting design, too, but it looks like a state quarter program. I'd really like this to sell well for the Park Service, so if we can't go with the binoculars, I would recommend number 1. Thank you, Mary, so much. MS. LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: Thank you, Michael. I think we can save the (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 116 binoculars and I think there were will be plenty of opportunities to do the binocular thing and maybe now that we've talked about it and, you know, Don will take it back and start to think of, you know, the coin as a two-sided object instead of just having to cram it all on one side, because I think if we're going to talk about the binoculars, you know what we're going to talk about next, right. cleaning up the design. We're going to talk about So not only are we going to contort -- you know, put the obverse and the reverse but we're then going to go back to the binoculars because we have to clean it up because it's too messy if we're going to pair it with a proper reverse. So, I think, there is an alternative to that and that is the obverse 1 that people are talking about. You know, I mean it pretty much does the trick. It's all there and, you know, it's less storyboardish. It's kind of storyboardish but less and, you know, I mean you still have the people in it which is nice. You know it's a Park coin. And for the reverse, I'll be pressuring Don Everhart during lunch to tell me who the artist is (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 117 because I love number 8. I love -- I love -- I just think it's the greatest thing. cool. It's a great design. creative. You know, I think it's It's clever. It's -- I just love it. It's I want -- I'd love to have this, you know, I mean, honestly. So I think it's really -- I mean I just have an impossible time not voting for this because I just think it's just too cute. And if you pair it with obverse 1, you got the kid kind of looking down; he's looking at the little frog, you know, and then you turn the coin over and you have almost like a kid-like thing. And so this is a coin for kids and that goes along exactly with what Erik was talking about, you know, that -- you know, because who's going to buy this coin in that gift shop; kids. They're going to tell their dads and their moms, I want the coin. MR. JANSEN: We continue to fight this battle of pictures on coins and this is the symbol, grant it it's a ladybug but I mean this is -- this will give Steve Antonucci something to do during his working hours to give us -MR. ANTONUCCI: I've got enough to do. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 118 (Laughter.) MR. JANSEN: Just thinking of you, Steve. MR. SCARINCI: Look, I think it's adorable. I mean I just think this is adorable. anything like this. We've not done It's got that whimsical, you know, playful thing happening, so I really want to go with this as the reverse to the obverse 1. Now, all that being said, you know, you got dinosaurs, too, here, you know, and we love dinosaurs. And when CIT makes dinosaur coins, they're making them because they have market research that says those dinosaur coins sell. That's why CIT makes them for [New-E] and all these countries. All right, so dinosaurs are dinosaurs are dinosaurs. always sell. Dinosaurs Kids always love dinosaurs, you know, and if this cute design for reverse 8 were not here, I'd pick a dinosaur in a heartbeat and go with the dinosaur. Okay. Now, that being said, I think we will have opportunities to do a dinosaur and if we did a dinosaur for a coin, you know, I mean wouldn't number 5 be a cute obverse for a dinosaur. It's almost like (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 119 a portrait dinosaur. dinosaur. And then you can have a reverse I mean if we're going to do a dinosaur coin, let's do a dinosaur coin. So I think we could save the dinosaur thing for another coin in another time just like we could save the binocular thing. These themes will come up again. the coin programs. I mean we'll have There'll be another opportunity to do a dinosaur and I think Don is hearing loud and clear, you know, Don is the dad of the dinosaur -MR. EVERHART: No. MR. SCARINCI: You are the dad of the dinosaurs, you know, having done one of the last coins of Society of Medalists series, you know, the fossil coin and a six-part coin set at that which has appreciated fairly considerably in value over the years, you know. So I think there's going to be an opportunity to do dinosaurs so -- and this might not be it when you have the cute, whimsical thing that really kind of completes the story if we go with obverse 1. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Thank you. Tom. Thank you, Madam Chairman. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 I Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 120 agree with obverse 1 as well but I would not be opposed to Michael's idea of NPS O2 added on. I think on the last go around, we did an injustice to the artist by not taking a vote by adding it in. So I would be okay with adding it in to make sure that everyone got the fair vote with the binoculars. Having said that, either that design or the 01 is fine and I, like Don, my first choice was reverse 8 with the leaf and ladybug on there simply because I thought that it matched up well with obverse number 1 and the leaf and followed through. So I will be giving some votes to number 8 as well as number 4, and the dinosaurs are certainly popular. I mean Canada just came out recently with a glow-in-the-dark dinosaur so I mean it's a popular theme and something as a non-circulating item for kids that worked out nicely. here. But I kind of gravitate to what Don said This is a chance to have a really unique reverse here with this image, number 8, so I'm going to lean towards that a little bit more because I think it ties in with either NPS OO2 or the obverse 1 for the design. That's it. Thank you, Madame Chair. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 121 MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thank you. Madame Chair? Sure. Can I make a motion to expedite? Yeah. I was going to ask if anybody would like to make a motion. MR. MARKS: Yeah. I'd like to a motion -- and please let me explain before anyone seconds it -I'd like to make a motion that we move silver obverse onto the ballot for this clad coin. In the interest of just letting us vote it out, I'd like to see a battle between the dinosaurs and the bugs. Donald has swayed me and I'll offer equal support in my case to both the dinosaur and the bug. But rather than -- maybe we can avoid a motion vote here and honor our voting system if we were to do that. So that's my motion is to move silver obverse 2 -UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kind of a write-in thing. MR. MARKS: -- onto the ballot and I would ask everyone to write, you know, SO-O2 on their ballot. Mary's provided space there. So that's my (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 122 motion. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: MR. BUGEJA: with a small amendment. Second. May I amend -- I'll second it For consistency in grading, particularly on the sheets that Mary has, I would amend your motion to include the silver obverse number 2 designated after NPS-C-O-10 on the grading sheet to be NPS-C-O-11. MR. WEINMAN: I think we probably prefer to keep them in their current numbers so we -MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: Yes. -- otherwise, it will be confusing for us when we share them with the CFA and tracking -MR. BUGEJA: Okay. Just for grading purposes, Gary, can you read the NPS silver again? Is it would be NPS -MR. WEINMAN: MR. BUGEJA: It would be NPS-S-O-O2. Got it, okay. I just would like it underneath obverse number 10 on the score sheet. MS. LANNIN: That's not a problem, Michael. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 123 MR. BUGEJA: Okay. MS. LANNIN: I'll -- MR. BUGEJA: I -- MS. LANNIN: Heidi. MR. BUGEJA: -- (inaudible) MR. MARKS: So everyone understands what that's all about? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: MR. MARKS: Yes. Just I really want to avoid a motion vote if we can. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: MS. WASTWEET: Good idea. I have an alternate idea just to see if anybody is interested in this method. Seems like we like the child looking under the fern leaf with the bug and we like the binoculars with the dinosaur, that would be like two pairings. Perhaps to expedite, we could just vote on those two pairings, see which of those two pairings we like better? MR. MARKS: Well, we could potentially do that but I think our normal voting system might pair a couple of those we don't expect. I mean personally, I'd be good with either way but -- (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 124 MR. JANSEN: I -- with all due respect, I think we cut short feedback to the artists by unilateral motions like this. I think doing a vote is maybe the more generous approach. MS. WASTWEET: MR. MARKS: Okay. You're talking about our current system? MR. JANSEN: Yeah. I would entertain -- in fact, I would second a vote to essentially just add in the silver obverse 2 to the candidates for the obverse -MR. MARKS: That's the motion I made. MR. JANSEN: -- and then have a vote. MS. LANNIN: It's -- I think it's -- MR. MARKS: That's the motion I made. It's on the table. MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: MR. JANSEN: Yeah, it was seconded. It's on the table. I would encourage just pursuing that. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: MS. LANNIN: Okay. Call for the question. Call for question. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 All Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 125 in favor? (Whereupon, chorus of aye votes) MS. LANNIN: Done, done, done. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: UNIDENTIFIED MALE: MR. WEINMAN: Okay. Did you (inaudible)? Aye, aye, aye. Michael, if you could vote and send me -- and email your ballot like you did last time; that was perfect. MR. BUGEJA: I'm doing it right now. Thank MS. LANNIN: We're going to recess now after you. we've voted until lunch and then we will say what the tally is after lunch. (Whereupon, off the record at 12:08 p.m., and back on the record at 1:01 p.m.) MS. LANNIN: Good afternoon. This is the afternoon session of June 16th CCAC meeting. For the record, should we read in the winners of the clad? MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: the write-in design. Sure. Okay. The winning design is So it received 22 points. second place design was design number 1 for the (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 The Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 126 obverse. And for the reverse, we had also two close contenders. The winner was number 3, so we have a dinosaur coin. And the second place was Donald's favorite; I think it was the bug and the leaf, number 8. Am I going too fast for you? (No response.) MS. LANNIN: So this had 20 points, number 3. MR. MARKS: Mary, can I make a quick comment? MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Sure. Donald's out of the room. No, I don't think he left. There we go. Donald's out of the room but I spoke with him at lunch after we had seen the scores, and our discussion was to the point that since the bug design didn't prevail that it was still a wonderful design and that in the event that we actually end up with an arts medal program, that this is one that would be most appropriate to make sure that the staff sets aside, if they're keeping a file on these sorts of things, for future consideration (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 127 because it certainly would pop on a three-inch bronze medal. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: MS. LANNIN: Absolutely. So as a point of parliamentary procedure, does someone need to make a motion just to save a design or is that -MR. WEINMAN: No. MS. LANNIN: -- in as it's a discussion? MR. WEINMAN: That's not necessary. It's on the record. MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Okay. curiosity. Madame Chairman, just a Is there a file where we're putting these things aside because I recall that there's been a few other designs along the timeline that we've asked be put aside? MS. STAFFORD: MR. MARKS: Yes, we do. Okay. Well, if we could insert that bug one, that would be great. MS. STAFFORD: MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Absolutely. Tom, you had a question? I'd like to make a motion to (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 128 delete the stick drawings under the dinosaur. I just don't find them to be -- I don't know that they'll be visible in the coin or not. I didn't know if anyone else had a thought on that but if someone wants to second it, that's fine; if you want to leave them, that's fine but I just wanted to bring it up. MR. MARKS: Second. MS. LANNIN: Can we have a discussion? MR. BUGEJA: Can you repeat that, please? It didn't come over very well over the telephone. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Sorry, Michael. I just made a motion to delete the stick figures under CR-O3. MS. LANNIN: The little petroglyph guys underneath the dinosaur's ribcage. MR. BUGEJA: Okay. MS. LANNIN: And Gary seconded. MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: And now is discussion. MS. LANNIN: And discussion. MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: Okay, Thank you. I'd like to point out that with the -- even though they're (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 129 tiny and they're going to be even smaller on the coin, I think the petroglyphs gives us a sense of amazing time that eventually, you know, we have this human intervention. And as we're trying to have human beings represented in these National Park coins, that this gives us a little touch of the National Parks, as they are, that you run across petroglyphs and also the dinosaur which are so ancient. So that's just a little comment to think about. MS. LANNIN: Okay. All in favor of the motion, raise your hands for aye. MR. BUGEJA: Aye. MS. LANNIN: Okay, that's four. Opposed? Are you neutral? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it won't pass -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: and Don's out of the UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don's out of the -- room. MS. LANNIN: And Don's out of the room. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- (inaudible) non- vote -- (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 130 MS. KELLY: This is Stacy. I'd like to add -UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then if it doesn't -- then it fails. MS. KELLY: -- one thing. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It fails. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Uh-huh. MS. LANNIN: MS. KELLY: Yes, Stacy. As we're looking at this as far as the coinability, especially on the proof, it's going to be very difficult for us not to wipe out that detail on those small drawings. And I just wanted to make sure that I point that out. MS. LANNIN: MS. KELLY: Thank you. It's going to be very difficult because normally, we'll tape off an area -MS. LANNIN: MS. KELLY: Oh. And I think that's going to be very difficult. MS. LANNIN: MS. KELLY: MS. LANNIN: To keep? To keep. To keep? (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 131 MS. KNACKMUHS: MS. LANNIN: Yes. Okay. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, they're ridiculous. MS. LANNIN: So with that comment. MR. JANSEN: Doesn't that presume that the intention would be to frost those stick characteristics and yeah, it's a pretty fine line to frost. What if you just let them kind of go to the field? MS. KELLY: I'm not sure that they're going to actually be present once we actually polish that out. It may look like there's something there that shouldn't be there; you know what I'm saying? MS. LANNIN: MS. KELLY: Graffiti of some sort. Exactly. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like hen scratches. MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: What will happen to that back pot, that left-hand bit, is that going to get washed out, too, because I think that's an important -MS. KELLY: No. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 132 MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: -- element. You need those two arms. MS. KELLY: Right, yeah. That will not get wiped out. MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: MS. KELLY: Okay. It's just that if you look at those drawings, they're not as high of a relief as what the actual structure of the dinosaur bones are. MR. JANSEN: Perhaps the sculpt can compensate a touch for that. MS. KELLY: That or if we make them solid, that may be an opportunity also, because what's going to happen is if we try to tape this off, first of all, we're not going to be able to tape off just those fine lines. MR. JANSEN: MS. KELLY: MR. JANSEN: Yeah. It would be that entire figure. We may have a three-legged variety on that goat, huh? MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: MS. KELLY: MS. LANNIN: That -- Yeah. So, Heidi, you -- (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 133 MS. KELLY: Yeah, and then those thing legs, any kind of thin lines like that, a lot of times they'll get obliterated. MS. LANNIN: -- Heidi, you have a comment? MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: MS. WASTWEET: Too bad. To get those to be as durable as you need to be to withstand the maintenance of the dye, it would have to be the same depth as the letters and you would have to thicken up the lines so it was more like a letter and treat it like a letter. But, frankly, I would just be happy to leave it up to the Mint's discretion whether to leave them or take them off. I would not like to see them filled in because then they become objects rather than drawings and they would look really strange if you filled them in. So I'd either go as it is, as outlines treated like a text, or not at all. And rather than voting on it, I would be happy to just leave it up to you guys. MS. KELLY: And I would recommend that we remove them; not that I don't like them. I like them but we're going to run into a problem if we don't remove them. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 134 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like to make a motion for a revote. (Laughter.) MS. LANNIN: All in favor or removing the stick figures as recommended by Stacy? MS. KELLY: MS. LANNIN: stick figures. I like them. Okay. We are removing the You're welcome. Okay. They are kind of cute but I understand what you're saying. Okay, moving on. What we have is we are going to review and discuss the candidate designs for the Foot Soldiers of the 1965 Selma to Montgomery Voting Rights March Congressional Gold Medal. And we have Dr. Barbara Tagger, the site manager with us as our guest from the Selma to Montgomery National Historic Trail National Park Service. Welcome. (Applause.) MS. LANNIN: before. We've only met you on the phone It's nice to see you in person. DR. TAGGER: It's nice to see you as well. MS. LANNIN: Okay. So April, you want to do your thing? (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 135 MS. STAFFORD: Sure, thank you. It is Public Law 114-5 that authorizes a Congressional gold medal to the foot soldiers who participated in Bloody Sunday, Turnaround Tuesday, or the Final Selma to Montgomery Voting Rights March which served as a catalyst for the Voting Rights Act of 1965. As described in the legislative findings, March 2015 marked 50 years since the world watched a multitude of demonstrators from all races and economic backgrounds take part in several peaceful protest marches. The first march left the Brown Chapel African Methodist Episcopal Church in an attempt to cross the Edmond Pettus Bridge in protest of the denial of African American voting rights. Led by Representative John Lewis and Reverend Hosea Williams, this march became known as Blood Sunday because the protestors were met with brutal resistance. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. led the second attempt to cross the bridge but once he started to fear for the marchers' safety, he stopped, kneeled, led them in a solidarity prayer, and then returned them to the church. This was known as Turnaround (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 136 Tuesday for the marchers. The final march from Selma to Montgomery was successful and it celebrated the marchers' achievement, included a processional for falling comrades, and became a climactic event of the modern civil rights movement. Protestors in these marches are known as the Foot Soldiers of the Voting Rights Movement. They walked 54 miles from Selma and Lowndes County to the State Capitol in Montgomery, Alabama facilitating a journey or 100 years by which African Americans gained the most fundamental of American freedoms, the right to vote. As you said, Madame Chair, we have with us today Dr. Barbara Tagger, our liaison to this program and site manager for the Selma to Montgomery National Historic Trail. She is also the one that gifted you with the pamphlets and pens that you have at your seats. Dr. Tagger, we will note your preferred designs as we present the portfolio, but we'd like to invite you to make any comments to the committee at this time. DR. TAGGER: Good afternoon, everyone. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 137 Again, my name is Barbara Tagger. I'm the Site Manager for the Selma to Montgomery National Historic Trail. I appreciate you having me here to participate in this wonderful process and acknowledging and recognizing those who go nameless, those who go faceless in our history books, those who will never get recognized for all that they have done, all that they sacrificed. And on behalf of the Congresswoman whom I am representing as well, I thank you very much. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. MS. STAFFORD: Madame Chair, should I Okay. start with the descriptions of the obverse designs? MS. LANNIN: MS. STAFFORD: Absolutely. Obverse 1 depicts a determined father and daughter clasping hands and standing resolute representing the spirit of the Selma to Montgomery Voting Rights Marches. Seen in the background are the Brown Chapel African Methodist Episcopal Church, the Edmund Pettus Bridge, and the Alabama State Capitol. The design contains the inscriptions "Selma to Montgomery" and "1965." Obverses 2 and 2A depict a diverse group of (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 138 foot soldiers standing on the Edmund Pettus Bridge underscoring how essential student and religious involvement was to the voting rights movement. One or more of the following inscriptions are included: "Selma to Montgomery" and "Marching Toward Justice." This is obverse 2 and 2 a. Obverses 3 and 3A depict marchers encountering resistance as they attempt to cross the Edmund Pettus Bridge. One marcher looks at the viewer with determination because he knows their cause is justified. The designs contain the inscriptions "Selma," "Lowndes County," "Montgomery," and "Bridge to Equality." This is obverse 3 and 3A. Obverse 4 depicts determined yet apprehensive foot soldiers looking ahead or singing. A flag n the background represents the rights for which the foot soldiers were marching. The arches of the Edmund Pettus Bridge, central to the events, are seen at the top of the composition. Inscriptions are "Bloody Sunday," "Turnaround Tuesday," "The Voting Rights March," "Selma to Montgomery" and "Facing Prejudice and Violence with Strength and Dignity." (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 139 Obverse 5 depicts foot soldiers to the right of the design and the Brown Chapel African Methodist Episcopal Church to the left. Inscriptions around the border of the design note the dates of the three marches. Additional inscriptions are "Bloody Sunday," "Turn Around Tuesday," and "Voting Rights March of 1965" are described below the image of the church. Obverse 6 and 6A and 7 depict foot soldiers as they finally cross the infamous Edmund Pettus Bridge on their 54-mile journey to Montgomery. Design 6 and 6A are inscribed "Foot Soldiers for Justice," "The Voting Rights March," "1965" and "Selma to Montgomery" while design 7 carries inscriptions noting the dates of the three marches as well as "Bloody Sunday," "Turnaround Tuesday," "Voting Rights March of 1965" and "With Dignity and Strength." So this is obverse, 6A. I would like to note that this is our liaison's preferred obverse design. There is a request, however, that we would like the committee to comment up that if possible, find a way to make the bridge more prominent and also to add "Marches 1965" (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 140 to the lower border inscription so that it reads "Selma to Montgomery Marches 1965." This is obverse 7. Obverse 8 and 9 depict the 1965 Voting Rights March from Selma to Montgomery. The designs convey the determination of the foot soldiers framed by a stylized Edmund Pettus Bridge. It contains the inscriptions "Selma," "Lowndes," "Montgomery," and "March 1965." This is obverse 8 and 9. Obverse 10 depicts a group of marchers with linked arms or holding hands as they walk across the Edmund Pettus Bridge. A child walks along the median symbolizing hope for the future as another child to the left looks at him in admiration. Inscribed along the border of the design is "Foot Soldiers for Justice, Selma to Montgomery." And that concludes the obverse designs. I'll carry on to the reverse designs. Reverse 1 depicts a woman emerging from a voting booth for the first time after the passage of the Voting Rights Act of 1965. The United States flag and the inscription "Vote" are to the left of her. Additional (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 141 inscriptions are the Lyndon B. Johnson quote, "Every American Citizen Must Have an Equal Right to Vote" and "Act of Congress 2015." Reverses 2 and 2A use the United States flag to symbolically indicate that regardless of race, color, or creed, all parties in a democracy should be treated equal and allowed to participate in the process of democracy. It contains the inscriptions "1965 Voting Rights Act," "Every American Citizen Must Have the Right to Vote" and "Act of Congress 2015." This is reverse 2 and 2A. Reverses 3, 4, and 5 honor the Voting Rights Act of 1965. Designs feature a hand, a voting ballot box, and the quote "Every American Citizen Must Have an Equal Right to Vote" from President Johnson's voting rights speech to Congress. Additional inscriptions include "Equal Right to Vote," "Voting Rights Act of 1965," and Voting Rights Act of 1965 Signed Into Law August 6, 1965" and "Act of Congress 2015." So this is reverse 3, reverse 4, and reverse 5. Reverse 5 is our liaison's preferred reverse (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 142 design and a suggestion from the liaison that we would like the committee to comment upon include moving the quote to the border and using a similar application as seen in reverse 3; if we could go back to reverse 3 for a moment. So taking the border from reverse 3 -- and back to 5 -- and employing that device here. Reverse 6 is emblematic of the fulfillment of the foot soldiers' efforts. It depicts the window of the Brown Chapel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Selma with some marchers facing forward and some facing back toward the view to symbolically indicate where the marches started and where they ultimately ended. The brick pattern of the church is used to frame the design. Inscriptions are "Voting Rights Act of 1965," and "Act of Congress 2015." Madame Chair, that concludes the descriptions. MS. LANNIN: Thank you very much. Jeanne, you feel like starting again? MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: MR. MARKS: I'll do it again. Can I ask technical question first? (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 143 MS. STAFFORD: MR. MARKS: Sure. April, could you repeat the obverse choice preferred. MS. STAFFORD: DR. TAGGER: Sure. MR. MARKS: Six-a. Six? MS. STAFFORD: The preference of the liaison for the obverse is obverse 6A with suggested edit that we would like the committee to comment upon which includes, if possible, making the bridge more prominent and adding "Marches 1965" to the lower inscription. MR. MARKS: Okay, thank you. MS. STAFFORD: MS. LANNIN: Uh-huh. Jeanne. MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: Thank you, Mary. When I first received this packet, you know, I was very impressed with all the work that went into interpreting these marches on paper. I mean this is a very difficult challenge and I think our artists did a very good job trying to meet that challenge. Some of these will obviously work better as (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 144 a coin or a medal -- we're doing a medal -- than others and my first impression was number 2. thought it was very powerful. I It didn't have quite as much information as some of the other ones but we could see the multi-cultured people in here. this was a very positive piece. I think We also had a piece of the Edmund Pettus Bridge. One of the things that was also impressive to me was that number 6A, which is the preference choice is the fact that, aw, you know, we have linked arms; we have powerful force here. And I think when people see this medal is there's going to be no doubt about what this is concerning. 2 and 6A. So my choices here are I'm very much in agreement with our stakeholders. For the reverse, this was also very clever. I thought, you know, reverse 2 and reverse 2A was a very neat interpretation of what was happening. However, I really liked reverse 5. going on. I liked what was However, I too think we should move the quote up and put Lyndon B. Johnson in there. The reason that I think 5 is a little bit more (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 145 representative is you understand that this is a box; it's not like you're putting a ballot behind a wall or something; you were actually experiencing a box image so I prefer that one. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Jeanne. MR. JANSEN: We have a large pallet here and gratefully so. topic. Thank you. Erik. This is wonderful art on an inspired On the obverse, design number 4 is just such a gracious use of space and spirit, but I think the message here is really about the locked arms, the power of passive numbers, and the fact that it ultimately will prevail and did and is, although we have our challenges. So I really look at designs 6 because I think one side of this coin needs to carry the power of the crowd, the diversity of numbers, the strength and confidence that it will prevail. So I lean into -- I like the lettering as modified better on 6A than I do on 6 and so I would tend to go for 6, although I have to tell you the eye control of these layouts, the artists got it. I congratulate them. On the reverse, I like -- again, I like design 5 and I like the fact that the ballot is going (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 146 into a box. You look at 4 and you have this more graphical treatment of the plane, that the ballot is penetrating but it's not quite as powerful in this case as the box, especially with the flag in the backdrop. The flag sets the stage for a physical reality and the box seems to fit a little bit better that reality in my mind than the graphic of just the line slicing the lower third of the circle. I commend the artists for the creativity of the flag and the hands but it kind of misses the mark a little bit. I actually look at that and the first thing I see is a piano -UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: MR. JANSEN: going into a box. Yes. -- not a multitude of ballots So similarly I think the symbol is a little bit subject to confusion on number 1. As April explained it, oh, I get it; before that I didn't quite get it. So I'm worried that 1 is also going to kind of go into kind of symbolic confusion. And number 6, I don't understand the perimeter artistic effect on the design. I think it's distracting and I literally missed the detail that (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 147 those are all marchers through that window. I thought it was a ship's portal or something so I lost it in the packaging there. So reverse 5 is where I end up and end up on obverse 6A. Thank you very much. MS. LANNIN: MR. VIOLA: Thank you, Erik. Thank you. Herman. Is it working now? (Chorus of yeses.) MR. VIOLA: Oh, good. comments of my colleagues. Okay. I share in the I think these are really very powerful images and I like them all, but I would have to say that obverse 6 or 6A would be most effective. And then on the reverse, I really was struck by reverses 2 and 2A and I guess I can see the symbolism of the piano but I thought that was really very, very clever and I certainly would give that strong support. And I guess I would give strong support to number 5 and having been a sailor on board ship, the first thing I saw at number 6 was the porthole out of my office window. It's -- but it is a very clever design and it really reflects the big (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 148 window in the church. So again, the artists really gave some thought to all this. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, Herman. Heidi. For the obverses, I was particularly impressed with design number 2 for the movement involved. I also like design number 4, just drawn very beautifully here although it reminds me of a couple other coins we've done. 5. I also like number I think this is a beautiful design. texture in the background. thoughtful. bottom. I love the The composition is very I like the way the body fades toward the It's a really lovely design. The stakeholder preference of 6A is a fine choice also. To the question of how to make the bridge stand out, we often think that to make something stand out, you want to make it bigger. But in this case, what's making it not stand out is the fact that it's getting crowded by the text and the ring round the top. What it needs is open space around it for it to stand out. So I would suggest moving the text from the top and remove the ring from the top so that the ring starts at the top of the (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 149 heads and only encompasses the bottom of the coin and whatever text you want to fit in that ring only at the bottom half of the coin. That way the bridge will have some open space around it and it will stand out much more bold. For the reverses, I too like the creativity of design 2 and 2A. To avoid the piano, we could take those ballots and just -- because they look like they're attached in one line and if each ballot was just rotated a little bit so that they didn't look connected, that would fix that problem. However, I think this design would be better suited to a silver dollar size rather than the large Congressional Gold Medal which can hold a lot more detail. So in that regard, I do agree with the stakeholder preference of design number 5. However, I like it as is rather than bringing the ring from design number 3. That, to me, looks like a coin rather than a medal. Again, if we were trying to do a silver dollar size, I would go for design number 3 but since this is a medal, I think design 5 is the most indicative of a medal design. I would shift the "Act (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 150 of Congress" up into that space, just rotate it so it's more in line like with the three position on a clock so that it doesn't run over the box. That just adds an added challenge to the sculpting to run it over a three-dimensional shape, so I would shift that. But other than that, I would leave it alone. especially love the texture. And I That's what really makes this design is the subtlety of the texturing rather than just a simple hand in a box. commendable design. So this is a That's it. MS. LANNIN: MR. HOGE: Robert. My preferences tend to follow those recommended here, obverse 6A perhaps and the reverse number 5. With regard to giving more prominence to the bridge, however, it seems to me that we're actually giving more prominence to the name Edmund Pettus than we are to any of these anonymous foot soldiers which seems a bit peculiar. Maybe the bridge could be emphasized with the name somewhat more in shadow. I gather it must be an inscription that is actually on the bridge. With the image of the people here with their (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 151 interlocked arms, it's nice but I don't see any American flags in these views on number 6 and 6A whereas in many of the others and in the images, actual photographs of the scene that I recall having seen, it seemed like it was just replete with flags and we see that in many of the others. So I wonder if this couldn't be a modified image to improve it a little bit giving less play to the name of Edmund Pettus and more to the American patriotism and maybe even to give more space at the top, the words "food soldiers for justice" could be put right down close to the feet in smaller letters. I don't want to be designing the work here for the artist but I think that these might be some improvements. I prefer design number 5 for the reverse as well and think that would be a good choice with the suggestion that Heidi made for us to move the "Act of Congress" inscription further to the upper right. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Gary. Thank you, Madame Chair. There are some fine designs but as I hearken back to our (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 152 discussion, our thematic discussion in April, I recall a discussion where we wanted to use some symbology of the bridge, profile image of the bridge spanning, let's say, the gulf of prejudice and violence. And on the other side is justice and marchers going across the bridge to that other side. The best way to maybe illustrate that -- if we could go to number 1, obverse 1; they started to do this but they put the figures in front of it and it kind of obliterated that. So I'm disappointed that we didn't have an option like that. We did specifically talk about it in the thematic discussion. So barring that, I would support the liaison's choice on the obverse. However, I think Heidi's ideas are, I think, essential to make this a successful design. the outer ring. I really don't see the purpose for I think, in fact, if you remove the outer ring and actually add a character or two on both the left and the right sides that just goes off -UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: MR. MARKS: Bleeding off? -- bleeded off so it would give more impact to the idea of a crowd. I'm disappointed (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 153 that there aren't any flags in it and the whole Edmund Pettus thing, I'm kind of divided on that because I understand that Mr. Pettus was not a nice man but maybe that's part of the irony of the subject matter. And on the reverse, I can go with, again, the liaison's choice of 5 but again, adding a ring around it I don't think really helps the design. think it detracts from it. I I'd be happy just the way it is with perhaps the change that Heidi suggested for "Act of Congress." That's all, Madam Chair. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Gary. MR. SCARINCI: MR. BERGQUIST: Donald. The constituent -Yes, I'm here. I wanted to call some attention to the name "Edmund Pettus Bridge" and -- but that is the preferred design in 6 and 6A, and you also see it in 2. You know, the history of it is well-taken that he was a confederate general and grand dragon of the KKK. But just this month, 150,000 signatures in Alabama for the Senate and House of Alabama were sent to try to change the name of the bridge. One of the names -- the official bill which (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 154 was passed by the Senate of Alabama was "Journey to Freedom Bridge." Now there is, you know, discussion on both sides of this that it is important to honor the history and the irony of Edmund Pettus Bridge. On the other hand, it is also often the subject of why are we still honoring this bridge because it's intent -- I believe the bridge was built in the 40's and 50's -- but it's intent was to honor the person in a specific way as to remind everybody of a certain heritage. So that's what the students were pretty much concerned about. With that in mind, if you take a look at obverse 2, it seems like the artist knows a little bit about this. I mean there are a couple of options that you can do. You can keep the name "Edmund Pettus Bridge." You can put something like "Bridge to Equality" rather than the real name. Or you can keep the reality of the bridge by not necessarily, as we see in obverse number 2, putting the emphasis on Edmund Pettus. Now what I did was I also talked to -- you know, I work at a university, as many people know, and I talked to a few diversity people here who are (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 155 experts in the subject. And, you know, this is not a controversy but it is somewhat of an issue. And the idea of the sensitivity of number 2 seemed to appeal to a lot of people and it will also be my favorite. If you take a look at the reverse and the pairing of the reverse, I have -- you know, as a person who has studied the arts and who has worked in the arts, it's just really risky to personify either animals or objects as you have here with the hands. That said, number 3 is very simple in the reverse showing what is there, but I also miss the idea of a box so my preferred reverse will be O5. So again, my preference would be O2 obverse paired with reverse O5. Thank you, Madame Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Michael. And now to Donald. MR. SCARINCI: The host -- or the constituents committee said that they favored 6A as the obverse and 5 -- O5 as the reverse; is that correct? MS. STAFFORD: That's correct. MR. SCARINCI: And they're pretty united (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 156 about that and that opinion? MS. STAFFORD: Correct. MR. SCARINCI: Okay. Then there's nothing for me to add and I will support that. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Thank you, Donald. Tom. Thank you, Madame Chair. Mike Moran's comments: First, "Overall, I thought the Mint did a good job with the designs of the Selma medal. There are multiple obverses that I'd be happy with. However, I was particularly impressed with obverse 2 and obverse 9 with 2 being my favorite. For the reverse, I like the innovation of R2 and R2A. Either would be good but I prefer the handling of the inscriptions in 2A." So those are Mike's comments there. Also in 2A on the obverse, I think that that really is a good depiction and I do like that obverse. And also, 6A, the preferred, it was discussed on 6A there if we did take the ring out and there would be plenty of room for a flag then on either side or both sides for that matter depending where the inscriptions ended up. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 157 And as far as -- I really didn't see that name there when I was looking at the drawing for the first time and I don't think it would bother me a whole lot. I wouldn't want to be re-writing history on the coin if that's the way it looked and that's the way it was depicted, then I think that's the way it is. And they conquered and that was the history, so adding the flag would add that. And on the reverse, I really didn't see the keyboard to 2A until it was brought out but yeah, it does. But what's also nice is the depiction of the flag representing the 50 states and that this was important to all states involved, and 48 probably at that time, whatever it might have been. And I could see if they were staggered and going into the box, that would be good. But I do like the idea -- we just came off of Flag Day and that's good but on the same token, 5, which is the preference, has the flag in the back and once again, I wouldn't change or add rings or anything either. So since it could be a little overwhelming in 2 and 2A on a larger planchet, I'm going to lean more towards 5 without any changes. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 158 Thank you, Madame Chair. MS. LANNIN: discussion on this? Thank you. Any further We seem to be -- so shall we vote? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: MS. LANNIN: Yes. Okay, let's vote. (Whereupon, off the record briefly.) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we're going to call a recess right now, what time would you like to come back. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: However long it takes. Should we take 10 minutes. MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: Two o'clock. Is two o'clock okay? Call a recess and e back at two. MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: Yeah, until two o'clock. 1:55. Okay, 15 minutes; 1:55, please. (Whereupon, off the record at 1:42 p.m., and back on the record at 1:56 p.m.) MS. LANNIN: Okay. We're going to have -- (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 159 because we've all been so good, except for possibly me, we're going to discuss the voting of the Foot Soldiers Congressional Medal. Gary would like to make a motion after I tell you who won. So the number one, by a long shot, was the preference of the stakeholder which is 6A, and that had 28 points. The next closes one was plain old 6 with only 11. We had two at 10 which were number 2 and number 2A. For the reverse, unanimous on number 5; also the preference of the stakeholder. Gary, would you like to make your comments? MR. MARKS: Yes. Madame Chair, on obverse 6A, which is the committee's recommendation, I would move that we remove the ring, that we would then ask the artist to add additional people on the left and right to bleed off of the edge and leave the existing text as it's presented. I believe if we o that, the design will become much more impactful. It will give the sense of an even larger crown than what's possible with this ring. a lot more punch. I think it will have a lot more pop, So that's my motion, to remove the (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 160 ring and bleed the people -- that sounds odd -- to add people to the left and the right. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: MS. LANNIN: Gary, add a flag -- I am more than happy to second that. MR. MARKS: Oh, wait, hold on. And where appropriate, if we can add an American flag. MS. LANNIN: I will second that. MR. JANSEN: Question. Was there an American flag present? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: MS. LANNIN: that? Yes, many. Dr. Tagger, could you address Was there an American flag present? DR. TAGGER: On the bridge? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: DR. TAGGER: MR. MARKS: Yes. Not on the bridge, no. No, the crowd. In that picture, would an American flag be contextually true to history or not? DR. TAGGER: about it. No, not when I really think There were -- Timothy Mayes was the young man -- I think number 2 kind of portrayed him -- did (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 161 carry the flag the entire 54 miles during the third march so he kind of represents -- in fact, we do have the original fag in our museum that he carried. trying to think. I'm During the first march, no, I don't think there was a flag but there was one carried during the third march. MS. LANNIN: So it is appropriate as is without the American flag? It's historically accurate at that point? DR. TAGGER: much so, yes. Pretty -- I would say pretty If you had him in the front, maybe that would go into the accuracy of it. MS. LANNIN: Well, we also had the flag on the reverse behind the ballot box so -DR. TAGGER: Yeah. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: DR. TAGGER: No, I think -- That's what I was saying -- UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: MR. MARKS: MS. LANNIN: covered. -- I think we're safe. Madam Chair? Yeah. I think we got it Yes, Gary. MR. MARKS: I would amend my motion to (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 162 eliminate my comment about the flag if my second would agree. MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: I agree as your second. Okay. MS. LANNIN: We eliminate the circle, get people off to the edge and leave the text as it is. May I call for a vote on that? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: MS. LANNIN: Yes. All in favor? (Whereupon, chorus of ayes voiced.) MS. LANNIN: Passes. Okay. So we are now at exactly two o'clock, going to take a half-hour recess until we are ready for the Borinqueneers. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: MS. LANNIN: Oh. MS. STAFFORD: Sorry, Madame -- MS. LANNIN: Maybe I'm wrong. MS. STAFFORD: -- Madame Chair, if you could just give us one moment. MS. LANNIN: Can we start at 2:15? We will start at 2:15. MS. STAFFORD: MS. LANNIN: They walked in. Thank you. You're welcome. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 163 (Whereupon off the record at 2:00 p.m., and back on the record at 2:29 p.m.) MS. LANNIN: of things here. I'd like to begin with a couple We are about to start our discussion of the designs for the 65th Infantry Regiment for Borinqueneers Congressional Gold Medal. And we've got just an unbelievable number of great designs to choose from, but before I do that, I would like to welcome all of our guests who are here and that includes people that we have had the fortune to meet before. Sam Rodriguez is here and Javier Morales. MR. MORALES: MS. LANNIN: joining us. Yes. Nice to see you. Thank you for And also before we begin our discussion, I would like the committee to know that we have received this morning a letter from Florida Senator Marco Rubio supporting the Congressional Gold Medal honoring the 65th Infantry Regiment, the Borinqueneers. Without objection, I will make the Senator's letter part of the record. All right. discussing obverses. Thank you. I think we should begin by Jean, I'm going to pick on you. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 164 No? Sorry, April. this. I was so excited about reading April, talk. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you, Madam Chair. IT is Public Law 113-120 that awards a Congressional Gold Medal in honor of the 65th Infantry Regiment known as the Borinqueneers in recognition of its pioneering military service, devotion to duty, and many acts of valor in the face of adversity. The 65th Infantry Regiment of Puerto Rico was the last segregated unit of the United States Military comprises primarily of Hispanic soldiers. They fought in World War I, World War II, and the Korean War. Their story has been described as one of pride, courage, heartbreak, and redemption. We have many interested parties present and on the phone including o your two Congressionally appointed liaisons who, as you mentioned, are here today. They are Mr. Samuel Rodriguez and Mr. Javier Gonzalez Morales, and we will be talking about their preferences of obverse and reverse as we move through the designs but I would like to invite them to make some opening comments to the committee. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 165 MR. MORALES: Good afternoon, everybody. you know, my name is Javier Morales Gonzalez. naturally from Ciales, Puerto Rico. As I'm For me, it's a pleasure being here and representing the Borinqueneers from Puerto Rico. I think that, through my behalf, I would say that they are sending you a warm welcome and certainly gratitude for taking your time out to listen to our recommendations for the Congressional Gold Medal. My passion for this is that I was the President of the Association 65th Infantry Regiment Association in Puerto Rico. It was created by the Korean War -- World War II veterans and certainly our group is not only Korean War veterans but also any veteran that would like to join our organization. I've been working with the Korean War veterans. I go throughout the island looking for them, making sure that they're receiving their benefits, making sure that they're well taken care of as well as if they did not receive their awards as they would have when they were in the war. For example, if they were wounded and did not receive a Purple Heart, I would make sure (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 166 that I would get that for them. So we are trying to do some recommendations -- recognitions for them and I really appreciate you giving me this time and being here is so exciting that I'll have to write something about this. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you for joining us. (Applause. MR. RODRIGUEZ: Good afternoon. I'm Samuel Rodriguez and I made some remarks but I will request that the full remarks be entered into the record. But I will say a few because we are under time constraints and I don't want to hog our time for the discussion and make full good use of our time allotted. I want to first of all thank Mr. Gary Marks for his tenure as Chair of the Committee. The last time we met, he stated something that continues to be the rattle in my conscience. He stated that the Borinqueneers spent much of their time fighting uphill battles. To this day, I still cannot get that out of my head. It's been very important to me. Ms. Lannin, today is a very significant day and I know that the committee, under your leadership, is going to do great (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 167 things. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. MR. RODRIGUEZ: We all know that the design management team is top notch and I am so proud to have collaborated with this team. Very importantly, we have a good team work effort going on here. During my 33 years is public service as a government employee, I have learned that patience and perseverance is a true virtue and for that, Mr. Norton, you have earned my admiration and respect. (Laughter.) MR. RODRIGUEZ: talk about Megan. Of course, how can I not Megan has kept me on target. She was like a compass and I work very well with that so, you know… And I learned from her that as a program manager, that when you rush things, you never get good things done, so that's been very important today. Today is a very historic for the Borinqueneers and for the Puerto Rican community as a whole. This is a time of the year, from May through June, that Puerto Ricans celebrate their identity in the United States and the celebrations start in May (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 168 and end up in August but May and June is the time of the year… We celebrate for a long time. With this Congressional Gold Medal, we're going to be celebrating for years to come. The images of this medal will be on floats, will be on tablespoons, will be on silverware, on graves, they will be tattooed into people. This is going to be something that the American public has never seen. And also, we're going to sell a lot of medals because we're going to tell the story of the Borinqueneers for years to come, and we're going to -- I'm going to be out there like a -raising money, all kinds -- asking for money because we're going to buy medals and put them on the -- put them in the pockets of Borinqueneers, infantry soldiers. You name it, we're going to do it. But I don't want to get into the details because that would take me a couple of days. Nonetheless, I just wanted to be happy. Everybody's who's listening to us in Florida, Puerto Rico, Western New York, Chicago, Maine, everybody that's listening, we're here to vote on a medal and move forward because we don't have time to spend -- to (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 169 waste. Thank you. (Applause.) MS. LANNIN: Thank you very much. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. So we will begin our discussion with the obverse designs. Obverse 1 depicts a Korean War Borinqueneer in the foreground securing his bayonet as he prepares for battle. The background includes the Maltese cross with World War I and World War II Borinqueneers lunging into a bayonet charge. The inscriptions are "Borinqueneers" and "65th Infantry Regiment." Obverse 4 depicts Borinqueneers in a bayonet charge with the inscriptions "Borinqueneers" and "65th Infantry Regiment." Obverse 5 depicts Borinqueneers in Korea patrolling in a diamond formation. The crossed rifles insignia appears at the top of the design. Inscriptions include "65th Infantry Regiment," "Borinqueneers" and "Always With Honor." Obverses 6 and 6A depict a portrait of a fictional Borinqueneers. The soldiers in the background are in an inverted V formation taking the (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 170 high ground with fixed bayonets during a Korean War assault. The crossed rifles insignia appears at the bottom of the designs. Inscriptions are "65th Infantry Regiment" and "Borinqueneers." This is obverse 6, which I would like to note is our liaison's preference for obverse design. And this is obverse 6A. Moving on to obverse 7, this design features a three-quarter length portrait of a fictional Borinqueneer and soldiers in the background taking high ground with fixed bayonets. The design also features a Maltese cross in the background and the crossed rifles insignia in the lower left. Inscriptions are "65th Infantry Regiment" and "Borinqueneers." Obverse 8 depicts three Borinqueneers charging up a snow-covered hill. One of the hardships faced during the Korean War was the lack of warm clothing during the cold, harsh winter. Inscriptions include "65th Infantry Regiment" and "Borinqueneers." Obverse 9 features Borinqueneers charging up a hill during the Korean War. The soldier in the (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 171 foreground is shouting to others to join the charge. Inscriptions are "65th Infantry Regiment" and "Borinqueneers." Obverse 10 depicts a Borinqueneer soldier in profile with three soldiers charging forward. The design also features the Maltese cross and the inscriptions "65th Infantry Regiment" and "Borinqueneers." Obverse 11 portrays a Borinqueneer soldier charging forward, rifle with bayonet in hand. Two soldiers can be seen charging up the hill in the background. Inscriptions are "65th Infantry Regiment" and "Borinqueneers." Obverse 12 depicts two Borinqueneers charging forward, rifles with bayonets in hand. Inscriptions are "65th Infantry Regiment" and "Borinqueneers." That concludes the obverse designs. I will move on to the reverse designs. Reverse 1 features the Maltese cross insignia, laurel branches, and the inscriptions "World War I," "World War II," "Korean War," "1899-1956," and (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 172 "Act of Congress 2014." Reverse 2 depicts the Maltese cross insignia with the crossed rifles insignia beneath, two laurel branches frame the designs. Inscriptions are "Honor at Fidelitas" (ph) and "1899-1956," "2014" and "Act of Congress." Reverse 3 through 6 depict the Castile de San Filipe del Moro of San Juan, Puerto Rico. it is a 16th century citadel, a central symbol of Puerto Rico and the preferred military command ceremonial parade cite of the 65th Infantry Regiment. The Maltese cross insignia and laurel branches are also featured. Inscriptions are "Honor at Fidelitas" (ph) "18991956," "World War I," "World War II," "Korean War," and "Act of Congress 2014." This is reverse 3. It also includes the inscription "Always Honor and Valor." Reverse 4, reverse 5. We should note this is the liaison's preferred reverse design, reverse 5. And finally, reverse 6, which also features the inscription "Formed in San Juan, Puerto Rico," "They Fought Bravely and With Pride," and "World War (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 173 I," "World War II," and the "Korean War." Reverse 7 features a stylized depiction of El Morro, the Maltese cross insignia, and two laurel branches to symbolize victory. Inscriptions are "World War I," "World War II," "Korean War." "18991956," "Honor at Fidelitas," and "Act of Congress 2014." Reverse 8 depicts El Morro with a Maltese cross insignia and laurel branches. Inscriptions are "World War I," "World War II," "Korean War." "18991956," and "Act of Congress 2014." Reverse 9 depicts the Maltese cross insignia and laurel branches. Inscriptions are "World War I," "World War II," "Korean War." "1899-1956," and "Act of Congress 2014." Reverse 10 depicts the Maltese cross insignia with inscriptions including "World War II," "Korean War," "Act of Congress 2014," "1899-1956," and "2014." Reverse 11 depicts the Maltese cross insignia beneath the crossed rifles insignia. laurel branches frame the design. Two The inscriptions (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 174 are "World War I," "World War II," "Korean War," "Honor at Fidelitas," and "1899-1956." Reverse 12 features a version of the Maltese cross insignia with realistic rifles representing the crossed rifles insignia. The design is surrounded by two laurel branches and includes the inscriptions "World War I," "World War II," "Korean War," "El Morro," "1899-1956," and "Honor at Fidelitas." Reverse 12A is a variation of design 12 and features the Maltese cross insignia surrounded by two laurel branches. Reverse 13 depicts El Morro and the Maltese cross. The design is encircled by a pair of laurel branches symbolizing victory and active service to the nation. The inscriptions are "World War I," "World War II," "Korean War," "Honor at Fidelitas," "1899" and "1956." And finally, reverse 14 depicts the Maltese cross insignia. In the background are five vertical stripes, a reference to the stripes on the Puerto Rican flag. The design is encircled by a pair of laurel branches symbolizing victory and active service (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 175 to the Nation. The inscriptions are "World War I," "World War II," "Korean War," "Honor at Fidelitas," "Act of Congress 2014," "1899" and "1956." Madame Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, April. Before we start making the round robins here, Heidi wanted to ask a few questions of the representatives. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you, Mary. It's been a while since we met so can you refresh my memory about the significance of the bayonets? MR. RODRIGUEZ: The significance of the bayonet was that that was their -- when they were charging into infantry back in World War I, World Ward II and Korea, that was their preferred way of going into battle. And when they went into battle in Korea, they had -- there was a last charge in February of that war when they were ordered to attack a division of Chinese, and imagine a battalion, a smaller force going into combat against a larger Chinese force and everybody had their bayonets and that's how they went up to charge up the mountains to meet their enemies, so that's the significance that they were the last (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 176 known battalion in the United States Army history to attack an opposing force with bayonets charge. That was the last command that they had received to go into battle, ma'am. MS. STAFFORD: And that's an important detail, yes. MR. RODRIGUEZ: MS. STAFFORD: Yes, it is. Your preference on the obverse doesn't really feature the bayonets. Is there -MR. RODRIGUEZ: Well, the obverse 6 shows the soldiers with their rifles drawn -- number 6 -and they have the bayonets on the rifles. MS. STAFFORD: Right, but it's very, very MR. RODRIGUEZ: It's very small but it's small. very symbolic that that's what they're -- it's obvious that that's what they're doing. MS. STAFFORD: Did you have a second choice of your pick or was that the one and only? MR. RODRIGUEZ: That was the choice that I - - and I honed in -- based on my analysis that I (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 177 reported to the committee, that was right on target. Before that, I had a different preference but that was before I started compiling the data from the stakeholders. Anything other than that would take us back to the painting that occurred in 1992 which has kind of different and we wanted something to be more original for this particular presentation, for this particular process. MS. STAFFORD: And this is a fictional character; this is not a portrait? MR. RODRIGUEZ: This is a fictional character that has a lot in it. At first, you see obviously it is a Hispanic Puerto Rican man. say one thing. Let me In Korea, a lot of Hispanics were, you know, bias and -UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: May I speak? Chicago is very (inaudible) -MR. RODRIGUEZ: Anyway, somebody had a -- they were told to shave their mustaches so having a man with a mustache -MS. STAFFORD: IF we could please ask any of our participants who are listening in to mute your (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 178 phones, we would appreciate it. feedback. We're getting some Thank you. MR. RODRIGUEZ: So, as I said, the fictional man is a Hispanic man from the mountains of Puerto Rico with the mustache that's symbolic of our community, of our -- you know, of our Islanders. Number two is that he's got a sergeant's rank which is a non-commissioned officer's rank and those noncommissioned officers that fought in the World War II -UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: mint? (Inaudible) physical We're not (inaudible) -MR. RODRIGUEZ: -- those are -- non- commissioned officers that fought in World War II later became the NCOs that were leading soldiers into combat in Korea. So those two things make a big connection between World War II and Korea, so that's kind of the thing. And then obviously, the bottom with the crossed rifles, it's the insignia of the United States Infantry and the Army, from back in 1917, said you guys are going to be infantry so we're honoring the United States Infantry by putting those (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 179 muskets there, so that's kind of what I honed in on ma'am, and not just me but also my team. We've discussed it with a lot of people here in Washington and we had a team in Florida that looked at this and everything -- everybody's coming together around that theme, ma'am. It's not just Sam Rodriguez. It's a community here. MS. STAFFORD: All right. It sounds like there's been a lot of analysis and thought that's gone into this so thank you very much for filling in the blanks. MR. RODRIGUEZ: MS. LANNIN: Yes, ma'am. Okay, Jeanne, I'm going to let you off the hook and let you be the last person; is that okay and I'd like to -- okay. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Before we continue, I'm calling on behalf of Chicago. MS. LANNIN: We have Chicago -- I'm sorry, we're in the middle of a committee meeting and if there is time at the end of the meeting for discussion, we will entertain a question but right now the members of the committee -UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm not asking a (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 180 question. I'm saying can we see the design (inaudible). MS. LANNIN: I -- can they see the designs? I don't believe it is possible. I'm sorry. Technologically, I don't believe that it's possible. This is a meeting that you can listen in on and listen to our discussion but cannot see the designs; is that correct? You don't have the ability to do that. Tom, would you like to begin speaking, please? MR. URAM: Thank you, Madame Chair and I just want to say that the passion that Sam demonstrates, not only at this meeting but the at the others, is certainly relative of his -- the passion for the group as well as the heritage and the honor and the respect to the history behind what you guys are accomplishing here and congratulations to the efforts that have been -- that you've gone through the process and it's certainly super and speaks volumes for what you're trying to do. Having said that, I'm pretty much all in favor of their -- your recommendations based on all the information that you've presented. So I would (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 181 heartily endorse number 6 as well as number 5, and it's a case, unlike with the coins and so forth, you know more about your organization and what you want to accomplish and it needs to be your medal, your recognition and so forth. And I think that the artists certainly did a lot of great renderings here, and I defer to your expertise on that, so I'll be supporting your choices. Thank you. Thank you, Madame Chair. MR. SCARINCI: Donald Scarinci. I'm -- you know, I'm really -- can you hear me -- I'm really glad that you removed the incuse guns. If they're going to have these things tattooed, I think that would hurt. (Laughter.) MR. SCARINCI: And the only question I have and, you know, obviously my inclination also for these things is to go with your recommendation which is obverse 6 and reverse 5. Did you vet that and has that all been thoroughly vetted with your group and everyone agrees? (Whereupon, background voice from telephonic participant who has not muted their phone.) (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 182 MR. SCARINCI: I'm sorry, it's hard to hear over this. MR. RODRIGUEZ: MR. SCARINCI: You were saying, sir? Have you vetted that with your group and everyone agrees that -- you pretty much have a consensus of opinion? MR. RODRIGUEZ: There is no question with my group that everybody seems to understand and support that option number 6 and the obverse -- and the reverse number 5 are the best options because when you look at the coin in three-inch and one-inch, when they come together and they shrink everything much better but the compass and symbolism of having a Hispanic man, symbolic of the Hispanic culture, is very important. So those two components make this to be the best choice that we have. And also the fact that we have El Morro -- El Morro stands for our connection to Spain and El Morro being the primary site for two countries and two foreign policies and the defense of the nation, those things are key elements that are going to speak volumes to our community for decades to come. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 183 MR. SCARINCI: Thank you. You've obviously done your homework and you've done it thoroughly and I'll be supporting number 6 and number 5 as you have recommended. MR. MEDINA: Excuse me, this is Frank Medina, National Chair of the Borinqueneer Congressional Gold Medal Alliance. Just for the record, I have not seen any of these design candidates so I would like to be excluded from that support that Mr. Rodriguez mentioned. I have not (inaudible) the words or support any of these designs nor its elements. I just want to make that clear. MS. LANNIN: comments. Thank you. Thank you very much for your We have the two Congressionally-appointed liaisons here and they are participating in our discussion of the designs for the obverse and reverse of these coins but we appreciate your thoughts. you. Michael, are you on the line? MR. MORALES: Thank I'll go to Gary. Thank you, Madame Chair. First of all, let me recognize Mr. Rodriguez and all of the individuals who have served our Nation in the 65th Infantry Regiment. This civilian salutes and it (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 184 is an absolute honor for me to be a part of this process to help you gain this Congressional Gold Medal. First of all, let me recognize the design that you've picked for the obverse. I think it would be a fine design. I have a different idea about a design and let me explain it to you. When I think about who we're honoring here and I think about the courage that these men had to have going into battle, about the terror they must have felt when they're charging up a hill, bayonets at their side, ready to engage the enemy, to me there is no greater service you could ask a human being to provide. And this is a regiment that was known for just that, for doing just that, to be willing to give the ultimate service of their own lives for this great country of ours. So when I think about that, I want to honor the men who did that. I want to honor, generically, I'll call him "the soldier." And I want to honor that soldier showing what he did. So if that's the objective, I find myself at design 11 if we could go there. Here is a soldier is Hispanic in his (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 185 appearance. about. He has the mustache that has been talked Here are three men who are engaged, obviously, in a bayonet charge, going uphill. You see the energy of the moment, the passion, the display of courage in your face. You know, here's someone who is boldly going forth in battle and to me, that grabs at my heart and that's what I think of when I want to honor these courageous men. So that's where I would like to see this medal go but I'm conflicted now with the choice that you've created and I'll support both of them equally because ultimately I would like you to have what you want. I think that's more important. For the historical record, though, I will provide equal support for this one for the very reasons that I've delineated here. As for the obverse, I couldn't think of a better one than what you have chosen and I will certainly be supporting that fully. Thank you, Madame Chair. MS. LANNIN: Michael, are you on the phone. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We'll come back to (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 186 him. MS. LANNIN: We'll come back to him. Okay. Robert. MR. HOGE: Thank you, Mary. These designs are handsome and I think they will do a find job of honoring an outstanding group in our history. I'm happy to follow the recommendations of our stakeholders with obverse number 6 and reverse number 5. I think we need to be careful about the symbolism of the rifles that we see on so many of these. As Mr. Rodriguez mentioned, maybe they're not rifles, maybe muskets. And in fact, some of them, I think, have to have been musketoons rather than rifles or muskets because of the way they're drawn in proportion. And astonishingly, on number 12 where it says "realistic rifles," these are the least realistic of all. I mean these are fantasy things. The artist who designed these or who drew them -- and in the case of the other ones as well -- must never have seen a flintlock firearm because these things are -- you know, they're not right, they're just wrong. But, of course, in the micro detail of a small medal or… (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 187 you're not going to see some of these tiny mistakes. That's really all I have to say. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. MS. WASTWEET: Heidi. While there are many nice designs here, I'd like to commend obverse number 4, obverse number 7, obverse 10 and 11; while I like these other designs, the preference of the representatives is so strong that I come back to design number 6. And I look at this as an artist and I see nothing here that I object to or can approve upon, so I will be lending it my support. And for the reverses, I think it's a clear choice, number 5. MS. LANNIN: MR. VIOLA: I'm Herman Viola, and it's my pleasure to be part of this historic moment which is appropriate since I'm the historian on the committee. My first choice for the obverse would be number 1 because it really reflects the three main engagements or conflicts that these buccaneers were in. But I would definitely go along with what the group prefers and so 6 is fine and I'll support that. And ironically, number 5 is what I picked first off (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 188 without ever hearing from anybody else. I think it's a wonderful design and I think very appropriate. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Erik, you're up. MR. JANSEN: I would like to commend the artist on this number 6 on the obverse; 7, 11, and 12, a derivative one of another, very nice artwork. And as Herman just described, I actually came into this liking 6 myself so you get my support on that one. On the reverse, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 I think are a wonderful integration of the geographic landmarks, the signature cross, and I think artistically well-founded, so you'll also get my support for your preference as item number 5. And finally, I'll just add that of the groups we get in here supporting the historical backdrop, the spiritual reality, all of the pieces that go into what these medals are here to commemorate, you guys stand out. You guys stand out in terms of caring, breadth of participation; just the story, it's incredible. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Thank you very much, Erik. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 189 Before we get to you, Jeanne, may we get to Michael who is now on the phone. MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: Okay. MS. LANNIN: Is Michael Bugeja on Michael. the phone? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: MS. LANNIN: Give me one moment. Okay. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll try -- the technician is having trouble so we're going to try a different route. MS. LANNIN: Oh, I've been there. All right, Jeanne, I will go to you next if you don't mind. MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: Chair. Thank you, Madame I'd like to thank Mr. Rodriguez for coming and also for teaching me about something I didn't know, so I appreciate that very much and also for your passion. And I remember when we first met that you really wanted to have something of the diamond formation, of going up a hill with drawn bayonets. And I thought my goodness, this is going to be such a difficult task, and I commend our artists who meet that challenge. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 I Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 190 think they did a fine job. I don't know how they did it, but I also was very much empowered to see number 6. That was my choice from the beginning. And also number 11, Gary mentioned his preference here, too. I liked number 11 because we had some open space behind the soldier and also because his bayonet was drawn and it touched each edge of the medal, so we have the power of that weapon, and we have soldiers coming behind the imagery. So those two pieces, although we have other good ones, were the ones that I liked best, but I will go with your choice. And on number 5 reverse, again, I was intrigued by the ability of our artists to incorporate all of your desires, which was amazing, but I think you articulated it very well. So, again, thank you for doing that and also thank our Mint artists for being able to comply. I also liked number 5 so thank you. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Michael, are you now on MR. BUGEJA: Are you ready for me, Mary? the line? (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 191 MS. LANNIN: I am in this very high-tech way of Greg holding up his cell phone for a microphone. MR. BUGEJA: I'm sorry. I was on the line and speaking but apparently, I wasn't heard. I'm going to be very brief and first to compliment the artists on both the obverse and the reverse designs. I find them all very inspiring. I do like obverse number 6 and 6A. Either of them are just very inspiring to me. We have a depth of field which I truly like. I actually prefer O6 because the depth of field is even better. It's going to give that design some pop and just speak volumes. I also like the fact that the Maltese cross on this obverse is small on each side of the legend, which brings me to the reverses. And they are all quite wonderful. You know, as a full-blooded Maltese person, I can speak about the Maltese cross. It has eight points and the Borinqueneers actually embrace all these eight points and they're very ethical. It's to live in truth, to have faith, to give (inaudible) humility, justice, to repent of sins, be merciful, be sincere, and overcome persecution; those are wonderful emblematic ethical (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 192 principles. And for that reason, I like to go just alone with the reverse number 10, although any of these reverses, in my idea, are acceptable. I just like the simple Maltese cross and the shield which represents the Borinqueneers, their courage but most of all their adherence to ethical values. Thank you, Madame Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much, Michael. We've heard from all of our representatives and committee members. Why don't we -- MR. BUGEJA: I'll sign off. MS. LANNIN: Why don't we compile our voting sheets, turn them in, and then I'd like to take a 10minute break -- let's say -- or a 15 minute break. Let's see, we get back here at 3:20 and we will do -yes, Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLIMAN: What about the phone, people from the phone, do we have -MS. LANNIN: After we vote and after we give the results of another vote, we will have 5 or 10 minutes for discussion. Thank you. (Whereupon, off the record at 3:06 p.m., and (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 193 back on the record at 3:21 p.m.) MS. LANNIN: I think that there was a little bit of concern in the room that we didn't quite let people know what the Selma food soldiers was again, and so I just want to go over that again. had made a motion. Gary and I So for the record, the choices that we made on the foot soldiers Congressional Gold Medal is 6A with 28 points with Gary's and my motion to remove the line around and to extend the people to the edge for the obverse; and the reverse, number 5 got 30, a perfect score. So if -- is that clear to everybody which ones we -- this is the Selma foot soldiers. Okay. All right. are we doing? So we are all back here. How Well, while we're waiting for the printout, Sam and Javier, I would like you to address the group again and take us through the process because you obviously have many, many people that gave you input into what they wanted to see, the designs, ideas, things that they wanted to do. So if you could describe for us and for anyone who is listening the extensive data that you collected and how you got to (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 194 the point where we're all here today? MR. RODRIGUEZ: Okay. When I was appointed to this position which has brought us to this phase of the project, mindset that -- before I start -- I had - I've been in government for 30 years working at the federal laws and stuff like that, 33 years to be exact. So I used all the skills that I have gathered working for the federal government, how to implement laws, so I used the same principles of establishing the group, establishing a procedure, establishing a process that was open and transparent to everybody. I established websites; I sent out many emails throughout the United States and Puerto Rico, and then we started a plan. And I just had a discussion with the design team here, the design manager. We had a survey where we allowed people to send in their information and we would start getting people's commentary, because I didn't want to do something on my own. And outside of that, the -- a group established another -- a pattern where they had some designs and they were voting on their designs. We took -- we got a lot of information (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 195 through the help of Mr. Norton and we added that information to the process and we tabulated that information. I included that information in the report that I submitted to the committee back in January. I did all of that so that it would be clear that the process that we had in place was a process that was scientific, so to speak, that was transparent, and that everybody would know where my report or where my end conclusion would be. I did that, again, using my government experience so that it would have better results at the end. Then I published all that information, all that timeline -- I put a timeline on the website, on Facebook, everywhere I could just to get more community involved, get a lot of people involved so we would have a product that we see today. So that has been my take. On top of that, Mr. Morales, he went all over Puerto Rico gathering information. One of the big -- Mr. Alex-sear (ph) from Puerto Rico sent a letter to the committee expressing his thoughts about the Congressional Gold Medal. So in the United States and in Puerto Rico, (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 196 people were boots on the ground asking questions about this Medal. And that has been a -- I think that has been a very thorough, thorough, thorough process to gather information so we would have this outcome today. Do you have anything to say, Mr. Javier? MR. MORALES: Yeah. I took my time out and I visited many organizations in Puerto Rico and asked them for their input. I explained to them the process that was going to happen for this Gold Medal to be designed, and they provided some samples and some themes. So those I sent to Sam and Sam was able to compile that into a report, but we did get quite a few input from Puerto Rico as well. MS. LANNIN: clarifying that. Thank you. Thank you very much for So in other words, our committee received all of your input in January. The artists were listening to what the Congressionally-appointed liaisons had gathered from their data and from interviews with their constituents and then our artists, as have always done, created obverse and reverses matching the ideas that you gave to us. so we have followed a process here and we have now And (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 197 voted for the obverse and the reverse for this Congressional Gold Medal. Does anybody have any other discussion that they would like to say about this, any of the CCAC members? (No response.) MS. LANNIN: Okay. No one wants to -- UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The original Borinqueneers. MS. LANNIN: speak. It's fine if you would like to I will give you 10 minutes. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: MS. LANNIN: (Inaudible.) Can you speak up, please? We are having trouble hearing you. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am one of the Borinqueneers, the original Purple Heart Borinqueneers here in Chicago, the only one with the Purple Heart. I never received any surveys, any notification, and I do not use the internet. There are various Chicago Borinqueneers here that have been excluded from the process and we believe that this is not appropriate. I’m translating for my grandfather. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 198 And also, I don't appreciate that Rodriguez calls us "country boys" and he called us (inaudible). This is highly discriminatory and inaccurate. And the company that was with was in San Juan, Puerto Rico. If you don't know, that's the capitol and that's a city. Do you understand? MS. LANNIN: Yes, I do understand. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Vasquez on line as well. We also have Mr. Juan Mr. Juan Vasquez doesn’t want to say anything. MS. LANNIN: anything? He does not want to say He's choosing not to say anything? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's just saying thanks for everything. MS. LANNIN: input. Okay. And thank you for adding your I would like to announce the results of the Borinqueneers vote and we have a perfect score on obverse number 6 with 30 points. The next closest was obverse 11 with 13 followed by 6A, which is just a variation of 6, with 11. So it looks like the obverse of this Congressional Gold Medal will be obverse number 6. (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 199 For the reverse, again, we went with what our liaisons felt was the best choice, and number 5 for the reverse got a total of 28, two short of a perfect score. The next closest one was number 7 with only seven votes. So this, by far, was the outstanding reverse that was picked for the Congressional Gold Medal. And there you have it. Any other questions? (No response.) MS. LANNIN: Shall we recess until tomorrow? We will be discussing the Nancy Regan. We also have an eight o'clock administrative meeting. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: MS. LANNIN: much. And that's all. And that's all. Thank you very It's 3:30. (Whereupon, at 3:30 p.m., the meeting was adjourned.) (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 200 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, CHAZ BENNETT, the officer before whom the foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my direction; that said deposition is a true record of the testimony given by said witness; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. CHAZ BENNETT Notary Public in and for the DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA My commission expires: Notary Registration No.: (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 201 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION I, LUCY T. TURNBULL, hereby certify that I am not the Court Reporter who reported the following proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a true, correct, and complete transcription of said proceeding. June 24, 2015______ _________________________ Date LUCY T. TURNBULL, CET-743 Transcriptionist (866) 488 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 1 UNITED STATES MINT CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMMITTEE PUBLIC MEETING Wednesday June 17, 2015 9:30 a.m. Held At: United States Mint 801 Ninth Street, Northwest Washington, D.C. By: Gervel A. Watts, CERT, Capital Reporting Company 2 A P P E A R A N C E S CCAC Members Mary Lannin, Chair Erik Jansen Gary Marks Thomas J. Uram Heidi Wastweet Herman Viola Jeanne Stevens-Sollman Donald Scarinci Michael Bugeja (via telephone) * * * * April Stafford Nanette Evans Megan Sullivan Stacy Kelley Roger Vasquez Via Telephone Melissa Giller, Reagan Foundation Steve Antonucci E. Walker 3 P R O C E E D I N G S MS. LANNIN: I would like to welcome everybody to the second session of the Citizen's Coinage Advisory Committee. And today we're going to talk about the candidate designs for the Nancy Reagan First Spouse Gold Coin and Medal Program, as well as a discussion of the 2016 Special 100th Anniversary Products. So welcome to the meeting. Do we have any media on the phone that would like to identify themselves? MIKE: This is Mike (Inaudible) with Coinage. MS. LANNIN: morning. Hello, Michael. Good Anyone else? MR. WALKER: This is E. Walker with MS. LANNIN: Good morning. Coinage. it. And that's We have Michael Bugeja from our Committee on the phone; is that correct? MS. STAFFORD: MS. LANNIN: Yes. Okay. April? 4 GREG: Michael Bugeja, are you there? MS. LANNIN: MS. STAFFORD: He was. Maybe he has muted us. MR. BUGEJA: Can you not hear me? MS. LANNIN: There we are. MS. SULLIVAN: MR. BUGEJA: We can hear you now. Okay. There was a little Okay. April, are you ready static on the line. MS. LANNIN: to start? MS. STAFFORD: Yes, I am. Pursuant to Public Law 109145, the United States Mint will mint and issue three first spouse gold coins in 2015 -MS. SULLIVAN: '16 MS. STAFFORD: -- '16 -- excuse me -- under the same schedule as the Presidential Dollar Coin Program's annual release. The United States Mint is also authorized to produce bronze medal duplicates of these designs. The legislations specifies that the design on the obverse of each coin issued shall 5 contain the name and likeness of a person who was a spouse of a president during the President's period of service, an inscription of the years during which such person was the spouse of a president during that President's period of service and a number indicating the order of the period of service in which such president served. Additional observe inscriptions include Liberty, In God we Trust, and the year of minting. The reverse of each coin issued shall bear images emblematic of the life and work of the first spouse whose image is born on the obverse. Additional reverse inscriptions include United States of America, e pluribus unum, ten dollars, one-half ounce, and .9999 fine gold. The same obverse device will be used for both the gold coins and the bronze medals, without inscriptions that would be inappropriate for a non-legal tender medal. So today we'll be considering the candidate designs for Nancy Reagan. Nancy Reagan served as First Lady from 6 1981 through 1989. She will be only the second living person featured on a coin in recent history. We worked with the Reagan Foundation during the review phase of the design process and Mrs. Reagan herself has reviewed and commented on these designs. We'll start with obverse, of which we have 11 candidate designs for consideration. With minor modifications, Obverse 1 seen here is the favorite design of the Foundation and Mrs. Reagan. Requested modifications include slightly reducing the volume of the hair and smoothing the features around the eyes. So this is Obverse 1. Two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, and eleven. reverse designs. to consider. Moving onto the We have nine candidate designs Reverse 1 depicts a representation of President Reagan's Oath of Office. The design conveys the fierce dedication and unwavering support Mrs. Reagan provided to her husband 7 throughout his life. Reverses 2 and 3 depict a teenager in the 1980s with hand out stretched, with the word "No" written on it. The designs refer to Mrs. Reagan's "Just Say No" campaign to encourage young people to stay away from drugs. Obverse 2 and 3. Here is I apologize; those are Reverses 2 and 3. Reverse 4 and 5 reference Mrs. Reagan's "Just Say No" campaign with the visual of a thumbs up to life and thumbs down to drug use. Design 4 features a symbolic spiral to convey that a youth choosing to avoid drugs has a positive trajectory in life and a negative trajectory if he or she chooses to use drugs. Here is Reverse 4 and 5. Reverses 6 and 7 feature an adult and a child participating in Mrs. Reagan's Foster Grandparents program, which paired senior citizens with children as mentors, role models, and friends. This is Reverse 6 and 7. Reverse 8 depicts a young boy wearing a 8 T-shirt with the slogan, "Just Say No." Mrs. Reagan stands behind him, her hands on his shoulders in support of his determination to avoid drug use. Reverse 9 depicts Mrs. Reagan standing at a podium with her arm around a young child, wearing a "Just Say No" T-shirt. This reverse design is favored by the Foundation, as it reflects Mrs. Reagan's work with the youth of America during her "Just Say No" campaign. This campaign remains one of Mrs. Reagan's proudest accomplishment as First Lady. Madam Chair, that concludes the designs. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, April. I also neglected to welcome the representative from the Foundation, Melissa Giller. hello. I would like to say She's the Chief Marketing Officer of the Ronald Reagan Presidential Foundation and she's with us on the phone. MS. GILLER: Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thank you. would you like to speak first? Tom, 9 MR. URAM: Sure. Thank you, Madam Chair. As it goes with the obverse design, I think that the fact that we have the opinion of the First Lady says enough for me. And with the changes that were suggested by April in her report, I think that Obverse 1 is certainly the one that I'll just go with, No. 1. The reverse is a little bit more challenging for myself in the fact that if we do go with the suggested Reverse 9, and we end up with two heads, obviously, as it relates to the coin itself. So I'm not -- I respect the fact that they really like that program and it was a milestone of her career and so forth as First Lady. For the coin itself, I would lean more toward No. 8 if we are going to go with that simply because of having a two-headed coin, I just don't know that would be right. And even if we went with Reverse 1, which was nice by having the former President somewhat in there, once again, then we have almost two and-a-half heads. So I think I'm going to lean a 10 little more towards Reverse 8 and try and get away from the conflict there. I certainly will give some votes to No. 9 in respect to the liaison. Thank you Madame Chairman. MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Gary. Thank you, Madame Chair. In my eight years with the Committee, I've often found myself, when were looking at designs to honor or commemorate a person, I've always asked myself, "Gosh, I wish they were alive and we could ask them what their preferences were." So I think this is kind of novel that we've got that and she's told us. And for that reason, you know, I think, for me, absolutely on the obverse, we need to go with No. 1. That's what Mrs. Reagan has indicated she would like. The concern I have about this design is the hair. It looks sculpted out of stone to me. And so I would hope that in the sculpt for the coin that that could be softened somewhat so it would look like hair and not stone. So I think 11 that's a fine portrait of Mrs. Reagan and I'm satisfied with that. If we could go to her preferred reverse. I'd like to take a look at that. Again, you know, we have the person to be honored who is living now and has said this is what she would like. I know, I mean, for me, that just makes sense that we need to go with design; however, I'm concerned with -- I know that maybe this design needs some work and I'm wondering what the process here is. If the Committee goes with this design, do we get another chance to look at, even in retrospect before it's produced. I'm kind of uncomfortable approving something when I really don’t know what's it's going to look like after the fact. So if staff can get me some kind of input or help on that, I would appreciate it. MS. STAFFORD: Sure. Certainly, and internally we're aware as well that this would need some work, but agree also that it's worth 12 pursuing, given the input from the Foundation and Mrs. Reagan. We can take the feedback from you and move on or we can take the feedback from you and bring a portfolio or design or designs back. That really is the Committee's preference and we want to make sure this is right. At the end of the day, we want to just make sure that everyone will be happy, particularly Mrs. Reagan, with the representation. MR. MARKS: Yes. And my concern, I guess, and I'll guess the other committee members will share with me is the likeness don’t look -MR. URAM: MR. MARKS: They don’t match. They don’t look human. They look like they're bad art of a human or a couple of humans. So in respect to Mrs. Reagan, I want a coin that looks good. And so that's my concern and I hope there is some additional work here. If it's possible, even after we've approved this, if this is what we approve, it's possible for Committee Members to reassured of what is going to be produced before we see it in the marketing. 13 I would really appreciate that. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: All right. Erik. MR. JANSEN: Thank you. I whole heartedly concur with Mrs. Reagan's selections. I was very pleased to learn that Portrait No. 1 was her favorite because this was clearly mine as well before I knew that. The reverse is a little bit problematical, but I think that the one selected, Design Reverse No. 9, could really be made to work and I wouldn’t worry about having her image on both sides. though. I don’t like the hands here, They look like they're creeping up from some kind of monster that's behind them. MR. URAM: Those are eagle's talons. MR. JANSEN: Something like that. That's the representation of the eagle on the coin? MS. SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. MR. JANSEN: At any rate, that's all. MS. LANNIN: Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: Just as Erik said, Obverse 14 No. 1 was also my favorite so I was pleased to hear that that was her pick. That's our clear choice so that the difficult challenge is the reverse, and this is a very difficult choice. Frankly, I don’t think any of the designs are adequate. We can look at Design No. 9, which is the preference. The "Just Say No" campaign really focused on catching children early rather than after the fact that they had gotten into children and the children were her priority, but this design, we only have three elements here and the child is the least significant, one of the three characters. At the podium, we have Mrs. Reagan and the child is off to the side, a very small -- and I don’t think it conveys the message that she's trying to get to, that the children are the important part. So in Design No. 8, we have a more prominent child that the way she is standing behind him makes him look like he's being forced. She's got the hands on his shoulder, pushing him 15 forward against his will and that gesture is really going, again, against the message that we're trying to say here is that when the children say "No" that they are empowering themselves. Especially on a coin that is so small, the gesture of the figures is even more important than the expression on their faces because that is what is most visible. So we cannot ignore the gestures of these bodies. So for that reason, both of these designs fall well short of the goal that she has stated as her important part of her legacy. So I think that we would do her justice to reexamine both of these. In this Design No. 8, I do like the drawing of the child and I think that if we remove the female figure from behind him, just him standing on his own would be much better. Then we run the risk of it looking like a portrait or a two-headed coin because it's just a single child. But we could still do something with this if we -- put our heads to it and maybe 16 put something around him or add a couple of -maybe a child on either side of him. The T-shirts were a core part of her presentation when she went to schools. They did get the T-shirts, so that does have meaning, so we can still focus on the T-shirts. But please, let's go back and reexamine this with some enthusiasm rather than just picking one of these two. That's it. MS. LANNIN: MR. HOGE: Robert. Thank you, Madame Chair. And I would just like to say that like my colleagues, Obverse 1 was my first choice as soon as I saw it. I mean, it really stands out. And I agree that the reverses, the designs are all pretty weak, but I think we ought to go along with what the recipient or the person who's being honored would like. Now, I agree that they have to be reworked, either No. 8 or No. 9, but let's face it, she is pretty advanced in age and the whole thing about all we're saying about this 17 historical thing of one of the few people alive, let’s hope she's still alive then when then medal comes out so she can really enjoy it. So if we have to go back to some, you know, redesign, I hope there was some way this can be expedited and that's all I have to say. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Erik. MR. JANSEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. I would echo the comments of my colleagues here, especially Gary and Heidi. I think in pursuit of everyone's best satisfaction, I think we can continue to march this forward and make it the best it can be, but with all due respect to her preferences, I think we can make it all happen. So thank you. MS. LANNIN: Jeanne. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: to agree with my colleagues. preferred. Thank you. I have I think No. 1 is my It was my preferred when I came in. I do like her -- I like her hair because it is sculptural. I don’t think we have to mess with 18 it. It's powerful and I think that's my opinion of that. As far as Reverse 8 and 9, I would like to see maybe more children, more diversity so that if we had, you know, three or four children, maybe, if one in the front with that logo distinguished and maybe a couple beside him, it would read more that she was touching more children at a proper age. And also, not just boys. MS. LANNIN: Yes. Yes. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: So that's all. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Jeanne. -- No. 1 was my favorite, as the obverse. think she looks beautiful. happy. I didn’t I You know, she looks She just looks like a very happy person in this one. I agree with you Jeanne, I like the hair like that. It doesn’t bother me at all. In terms of the reverses, I agree with the two of you that there could be more children. I also thing that there should be both sexes in there. And on this No. 9, that podium is so 19 prominent. What if -- MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. LANNIN: Yeah. Where's the child? There needs to be maybe something on the front of it. Maybe "Just Say No" moved to the front of the podium. don’t know. I But I would rather see just a child on the reverse of this, multiple children. And if you have to have a hand, maybe just a single hand on a shoulder, you know, saying that this is the adult in their lives. You know, suggesting that where it doesn’t look as if something is pushed. How long, Don, do you think the artist could take to bring us some more art that we could look at? MR. SCARINCI: We could probably have designs to show you by July. MS. LANNIN: By July. Good. So if we emailed -- April and Megan -- if we emailed selected re-dos of No. 8 and No. 9 to the Committee, we could have a quick telephonic meeting. 20 MS. SULLIVAN: We'd have to talk about the logistics. MS. LANNIN: MS. SULLIVAN: Okay. But we would work that through. MS. LANNIN: Okay. But certainly sooner rather than later, in deference to Mrs. Reagan. Heidi, you've got another comment? MS. WASTWEET: MS. LANNIN: Yes. MS. WASTWEET: Go ahead. If could look briefly at Obverse No. 1, I just noticed a detail here. So there is a line suggesting her shoulder coming off the necklace. MS. LANNIN: MS. WASTWEET: Yes. And in the proof version of this when you did have hard lines. needs to be a decision made there. So there I'd like to suggest that the bust stop at the necklace, to be the most elegant solution for that. wanted to comment on that. So I just And then on the reverses, if we do want to include the image of 21 her on the podium, I suggest that it would be behind the children and then just a silhouette, rather than the detail of her. MS. LANNIN: Oh, nice idea. MS. WASTWEET: solution. That was it. MS. LANNIN: comments? That would be one Nice idea. Any other Stacy. MS. KELLEY: I just wanted to add that on the reverse, No. and No. 9 were actually the two designs that the liaison had come back to us and asked us for specific items. two that were done. And these were the I think April had referenced this yesterday. MS. LANNIN: KELLEY: Very quickly -- These two were done in a very short amount of time. We turned it around very quickly. MS. LANNIN: Yes. And so we understand, we appreciate the fact that you were able to provide us with that. questions? All right. Any other 22 Michael, where are you? MR. BUGEJA: Mary? MS. LANNIN: There you are. MR. BUGEJA: You want me to go now? MS. LANNIN: Sure. MR. BUGEJA: Okay. Thank you. I agree that Obverse No. 1 is good. MS. LANNIN: She's beautiful in that one. MR. BUGEJA: I'm in full support of that obverse of all of them in the beginning out of all them. Just coincidentally it's the favorite of the Foundation. The Reverse has caused a problem and many members have already discussed that. I came in an hour early today, which is like, 6:00 Central Time, and looked at pictures, photos and newspapers of the "Just Say No" program. And one of the most prominent pictures, it includes Nancy Reagan in some and in some it does not. And there are groups of school children that were by the National Monument on the bus trip, all wearing the same green 23 sweatshirt with the white "Just Say No" T-shirt. You'll see that T-shirt or sweatshirt, depending on what season it is, in Reverse No. 9. Never did I see just one person representing Just Say No. of school children. Reverse No. 5. Usually it's a group But I wanted to discuss And this would also apply to No. 4, although 5 is a little bit busy to me -- for me. I had wondered -- well, we had two, obviously male hands here. And I think it kind of does a disjustice to -- the symbolism that it's appropriate for the reverse of a coin. And if we had a female hand on life, perhaps, symbolically representing the First Lady and maybe a younger hand -- it could be male, or a child's hand that whose gender is nondistinguishable, it would really have fulfilled the symbolic nature of what a reverse should be, and without using the word, "No," which is actually a problem in Nos. 2 and 3. So what I would like to see, Don, if it's 24 possible, would be to see No. 5 back with two symbolic hands rather than the dominant or more authoritative, less traditional, in terms of -- I mean, that's realistic in terms of what was actually going on to symbolize Nancy's Reagan's hand with the thumb up and the child's hand with the thumb down. Okay. That's all I have, Mary. MS. LANNIN: Interesting ideas. Thank you, Michael. Heidi, you wanted to make a motion? MS. WASTWEET: a motion. Yes. I would like to make Considering what Nancy Reagan herself has communicated as her preference and considering the conversations we've had here, I would like to propose that we forego our traditional voting system and simply vote in to adapt Obverse No. 1 and ask the Mint to go back and rethink Reverses 8 and 9. MR. URAM: MS. LANNIN: Second. Second by Tom. Did we want to add to that Michael's suggestion of reworking 25 slightly No. 5? MS. WASTWEET: Let's leave that as a separate motion. MS. LANNIN: Okay. So all in favor? MR. JANSEN: Question. In terms of a timeline here, what would you perceive the Committee would then see subsequent art -- the developed art ideas? MS. STAFFORD: If it's okay, I'd prefer not to commit, but it absolutely will be as expeditious as possible. MR. JANSEN: Oh, okay. MS. STAFFORD: Again, the focus will be on doing justice to these designs. JANSEN: Okay. And you think that it wouldn’t -- that our review of that art wouldn’t get in your way? MS. STAFFORD: Well, I know that our deputy director and principal deputy director felt strongly that the Mint needs to make happen whatever we need to make happen in order to have a design that everyone is extremely proud of. 26 MR. JANSEN: sure. We're all on that one for Thanks. MS. LANNIN: Did you want to make another motion? Michael, would you like to make a motion about your reverse -MS. WASTWEET: No, wait. My motion is - MR. URAM: There's still a motion on the table. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Sorry. So all in favor of Heidi's motion to rework -- all members say "aye." Or raise your hands. (Committee Members vote aye.) (Motion passes.) MS. LANNIN: Okay. Michael? Michael, would you like to make a separate motion about 5 or not? MR. BUGEJA: In reconsidering the reverse designs that we take another look at Nos. 4 and 5 that shows the two male hands. And on the right, try to get a representative hand of Nancy Reagan. 27 And you can get that by just Googling pictures of her and you would be surprised that it's such an elegant hand with the thumb up. And then a child's hand, preferably not gender-specific, indicating a school pupil. And when I say this and why I say this, and why I think those two designs are worth investigating is that it is really very difficult to reprint "Just Say No," which actually is a trademark phrase, incidentally. So I don’t know if we have to use "TM" on this or not. That's my journalism background speaking. The other thing, however, is these two designs are stylistically and numismatically inappropriate. The problem with it, I believe, could be solved with some more applicable artwork. So my motion is to include 4 and 5 revised, as I just previously said. MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: A second. I'll second. discussions. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Gary. I'd like some 28 MR. MARKS: I'm supporting the motion because I think it's worth pursing this avenue and if it is something that can be and then present it to Mrs. Reagan and she might find some preference for that design, I would favor this approach as opposed to where we're going right now. If you look at what we've done in recent times with first spouses, going all the way back to Edith Wilson now, since Edith Wilson, all of the reverse designs have been symbolic in nature and that's been a really good change for this program and I would hate to have Mrs. Reagan's coin be an odd man out with a -- I hate to say it, but a storyboard approach, which were familiar with previously with the first batch of coins. So I think if this could be prepared, as Michael suggested, and presented to the Foundation and to Mrs. Reagan, if they still say no and they like the other one, fine. I want Mrs. Reagan to have what she would like, but if 29 there's a chance that this might be something that would keep her coin more in tune with the series, at least the modern part of the series, I think it would be favorable for everyone. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Gary. So all in -MS. WASTWEET: MS. LANNIN: I have -Heidi? MS. WASTWEET: Does the staff have any input to this discussion? MS. STAFFORD: MR. MARKS: No. Only that I think, obviously, certainly, in discussing this, have intent to work on designs that are Mrs. Reagan's preference and that is the spirit of my motion. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Excuse me. Is it possible that Melissa might chime in on this a bit? MS. GILLER: Yes. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I mean, in terms of -- I'm sure Mrs. Reagan saw Nos. 4 and 5. she have any response to that at all? Did 30 MS. GILLER: It was more of a sense that the Foundation and Mrs. Reagan didn’t necessarily like the way Nos. 4 and 5 represented. And I think that you guys sort had the masculine hand and it didn’t really represent her and No. 4 with the boy on the back looked like little (inaudible) to us. MS. LANNIN: Right. MS. GILLER: Yes. But yes, we would be more than happy to show her No. 5 again, where it is her hand and the child's hand. We do know that 8 and 9 is not the way you normally do things, she just thought they most represented her program. But we would be more than happy to bring her back No. 5 and Nos. 8 and 9 again and No. 4. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Erik, you wanted to say something? MR. JANSEN: No, I'm fine. MS. LANNIN: Okay. MR. HOGE: Robert. If we were to select No. 5, 31 this is really given an awful lot of prominence to the word, "drugs." Drugs depicted it there with life and putting up in the upper circle. I wonder if something couldn’t be done to maybe put drugs down. MS. LANNIN: MR. HOGE: Right. You know, this could become known as the drug dollar or something like that. MS. LANNIN: MR. HOGE: Yeah. Yeah. You know, we need to be careful about things like this. MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Yes. Sure. That's a good idea. Good idea. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Good idea. MR. BUGEJA: It's a good idea. MS. LANNIN: All right. So procedurally, we seem to have two motions that we agree that -MR. HOGE: Well, we have to act on those -MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: We have to act on this? You've already approved the 32 first motion of the last one. MS. LANNIN: The last one. Okay. All in favor of reworking with the suggestions that we've just heard, No. 5, to represent Mrs. Reagan's hand and a generic child's hand and to rework where the position and drugs are on the reverse. All in favor. (Committee Members vote aye.) MS. LANNIN: Opposed? (No response.) MS. LANNIN: Unanimous? MR. JANSEN: I abstain. MS. LANNIN: You abstain? MR. JANSEN: Yes. MS. LANNIN: Okay. So it is eight to one. (Motion passes.) MS. LANNIN: So why don’t we take a 15- minute recess and get back to the rest of our agenda. Thank you. (Brief recess.) MS. LANNIN: Okay. We are 25 seconds 33 late. All right. The next and last item on our agenda of our June meeting is the proposed 2016 special 100th Anniversary Coins, which should be exciting. April. MS. STAFFORD: Yes. Thank you. And I'd like to welcome members from our sales and marketing team, who are with us in the room and at the table. We have Jack Zebin and Jason Laure, who are our program managers for precious medal products. And we also Nannette Evans from sales and marketing the room as well. Okay. This is the 2016 special 100th Anniversary, 24 carat gold coins, featuring classic 1916 designs. 2016 marks the 100th Anniversary of three iconic United States coins, specifically, the Mercury dime, the standing Liberty quarter dollars, and the walking Liberty half-dollar. To commemorate this milestone, the United States Mint is proposing to offer each of these coin designs in 24 carat gold. If pursued, the United States Mint will create dyes digitally 34 scanned from original assets, which could include plasters, Galvanos and original tooling. Adjustments for coinability may be necessary. Design modifications with include changing the date from 1916 to 2016, of course, and adding any necessary inscriptions to identify medal content, fineness and weight. Using 24 carat gold fractional planchets, the gold dime will weigh one-tenth of an ounce. The quarter dollar, one quarter of an ounce and the halfdollar, one half of an ounce. All coins will have a diameter comparable to those of the 1916 versions. The proposed finish for these coins is a business strike. Although this has not yet been finalized. The United States Mint will seek Secretary of the Treasury approval to strike these gold coins under authority of 31 U.S.C. 5112. Design descriptions. mock-ups. Let's go to the We have mocked up the following images of what these prop0osed coins may look like. this is the 1816 Mercury dime. Originally So 35 designed by Adolph A. Weinman, the obverse features a portrait of Liberty facing left, wearing a winged cap. Due to the resemblance to the Roman god, Mercury, the coin became popularly known as the Mercury dime. The reverse features a Roman faces and an olive branch, indicating America's military readiness but also her desire for peace. Additional inscriptions to the original include AU, 24 carat, and one-tenth ounce. Shown here is the 2016 24 carat gold standing liberty quarter dollar, originally designed by Herman A. McNeil. The design includes a bare-breasted Liberty, holding a shield and an olive branch as she strides through an opening in a wall bearing 13 stars. The reverse shows an eagle in flight, flanked by 13 stars. Additional inscriptions to the originals include AU, 24 carat, and onefourth ounce. And lastly, feature here is the 2016 24 carat gold walking Liberty half-dollar, as mocked 36 up by our staff. Originally deigned by Adolph A. Weinman. On the obverse, an every hopeful Liberty strides confidently toward the sunrise, carrying branches of laurel and oak in her arms to symbolize both civil and military glory. Liberty wears a Foggia and a cap on her head and an armored plate on her chest, over her flowing gown, while the American flag billows behind her. The reverse features an eagle rising from its mountain top perch. Additional inscriptions to the originals include AU, 24k, and one-halfounce. And I'd just remind the Committee that this concept was brought previously within a year for discussion. So these are the mocked up versions. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, April. I'd like to have Gary lead off with some comments. MR. MARKS: Well, thank you, April. really excited about this program. a fabulous one for 2016. I'm I think it's I like the fact that you've paired up the denomination with the 37 ounceage (sic) of the gold. MS. LANNIN: Yes. I love that. MR. MARKS: With the 10 for the dime, quarter for the quarter, and half for the half. I think that's great. For me, I guess I'm somewhat of a purest. If we're trying to honor these coins from 100 years ago, I think the proper thing to do is to produce them in a finish that would've been what you'd seen in 2016 for circulation. MS. LANNIN: In 1916. MS. STAFFORD: MR. MARKS: 1916. Yes, 1916. I'm sorry. So I know there will probably be those that will say well, be beautiful if we could do it in proof and I get that and yeah, they would be beautiful and proof, but I don’t know. Right now I'm having a hard enough time swallowing the yellow color of the gold. I would personally much rather see platinum. Even though it's a little darker color than silver, but I'm guessing you're going to 38 tell me that you feel your market is in the gold more than the platinum. But for the record, I'm a platinum guy when it comes to this because of my purest tendencies. So I just want to express my support for this. I was just given an idea from someone who I won't expose on this, but a marketing idea here, folks. If you wanted to do something fun with the quarter dollar, you might to put a pink ribbon on it and sell it for breast cancer awareness. MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Whoa. Thud. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Or maybe just put it in a pink box. MR. MARKS: No, but actually, I'm glad the Mint is being bold in going forward with that design. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes. I think it's perfect. MR. MARKS: let's honor 1916. If we're going to honor 1916, Thank you. 39 MS. LANNIN: Gary. Thank you. MR. URAM: Absolutely. Absolutely, I think Tom wants to be next. I just want to say that I can't believe that Gary is suggesting color on a coin. It finally came about. It finally came. Look out, Canada. MR. MARKS: No, no, no. MR. URAM: Oh, yeah. Not so fast. I heard it. I heard it. MR. MARKS: On the packaging. On the packaging. MR. URAM: Oh, okay. We'll have to look at the transcript. MR. MARKS: Jeanne had a better idea with the pink box. MR. URAM: clarified. Good thing I had to have that All right. Well, anyhow, I think that the bouillon, this is a super program and so forth, but from the collector's side, it would be nice if you did something in the proof that would have more than just a bullion approach to the program. But whatever way you end up going, I 40 just think that if you do a three packaging and a proof, you'll have another level of collector base. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thanks Tom. I think Erik wanted t to be next and anybody else can chime in. MR. JANSEN: If I'm not mistaken, Canada did a pink colorized ribbon quarter, I'm going to guess 2005/2004. Yeah, because I was in Canada when they released that and I actually went to a bank to get one. So Gary, colorized coins, you're the first to recommend them. Well done. I happen to not hope we do colorization. MR. MARKS: MR. JANSEN: I'm so misunderstood. Oh, it won't be the first time. With all due respect, I know these are mock ups and done probably efficiently, as all things like this should be. However, I want to really make a point for the record here. I think it is really, really important that when it comes to adding the necessary material and fineness that 41 it’s done in as harmonic a way as possible. So if you want to interpret that at its simplest level, let's get the font right and not make it look like some trade dollar stamped by a Chinese merchant to validate its fineness. Harmony, harmony, harmony. I would love to see all them on the reverse. I understand it looks like a logistical negative space challenge on that quarter dollar to find a place to put the gold and fineness. I'm sure that isn’t lost on you guys and I appreciate that you've -- yeah, there you go. The dime is being shown here with it at about 5:00. And the half-dollar looks like a reasonably harmonic insertion as well, save the font and all. But on the quarter dollar, I'd love to see -- go to the reverse -- just, I don’t know, I don’t want to get crazy and everything, but it just kind of feels like that might be, again, part of harmony. I'd like to see AU, if you can, within a font and a space restriction replaced 42 with gold, but again, that's probably Mint policy and precedent, so I'll make that comment and let it go. Finally, I would like to see that both the relief and the reading held consistent with how they were first struck in 16. I think it would feel funny, quite frankly, to pick up a quarter and find ultrafine reading on it. It just feels wrong. So I'd like to get the reading count consistent with how it was struck in 16 and not overlook that small detail. I know we've had some stumbles on some half-ounce gold recently and I'd just like to get it right first. So my primary message is harmony, harmony, harmony, harmony, so that the feel of these coins is continued 100 years later with the relief -- you know, the dates are going to wear off on that quarter. Well, this coin is not going to get a lot of wear, so let's not worry about that. Thank you very much. MS. LANNIN: Erik, a question. If you 43 wanted the AU on the reverse, where would you suggest it be put? MR. JANSEN: question. You know, it's a good Of course, this is the Type 1. The Type 2 might have a little more relief with three stars and so forth, under the eagle on the reverse. I'm having a hard time finding a place, to be quite honest with you. MS. LANNIN: Right. MR. JANSEN: And that's why I'm making the comment, but admitting that it's probably not lost on the Mint, they've probably already walked this walk and came to the best answer they could come to, so I respect that. MS. LANNIN: MR. HOGE: Okay. Thank you. Robert. I have a question on the thickness of these pieces. Since these are going to be in 24k gold, we really don’t have a lot of flexibility in increasing alloy or decreasing it to make them match up with the actual 1916 coins. So can anyone comment on that? Are these going to be thicker or thinner than the actual coins of 44 that era? MS. LANNIN: Do you want to respond to that? MS. SULLIVAN: MS. KELLEY: Stacy can. This is something that we're going to have to do some research on and do some of this test strikes on in order to determine which blanks that we would use. We would try to start with our standardized blanks, but then we would go from there in order to make sure that we try to keep that consistency. MR. ANTONUCCI: Well, this is Steve. I want to make a comment here if I can. MS. LANNIN: Please. MR. ANTONUCCI: We've got a quarter, a head, and a tenth ounce of gold. be what it is. It’s going to It's a volume game here, so the dynamiter is set by the original size. It's just going to be what it is. MR. HOGE: Well, this is my question. it going to turn out to be thin or thick or -MR. MARKS: How close will it come, Is 45 Steve? MR. HOGE: How close will it approximate the actual silver coins of 1916 in terms of thickness? MR. ANTONUCCI: I can't give you an answer to that right now because we didn't analyze any of this for an edge thickness, but I can run those numbers and get some information back to the group. MR. HOGE: that. I'd be very curious about That's it. MS. LANNIN: Steve. Thank you. Thank you, Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you for bringing this program, this is really exciting. And I like the gold because it's different than the original, but yet it’s honoring the original. that's really fun. So I have two comments; one minor point is, if we could, draw up the period behind the ounce. It could be misconstrued as an accident or make it look blurry. If possible, I think it looks cleaner 46 without the dot behind the Z. And then on that same note, Erik, I agree with what you're saying about harmonizing the type styles. It doesn’t have to be identical, but it's something that does complement and harmonize with the original type style. But I'm going to one-up you on that and I'm going to suggest that you hand sculpt those letters. MR. JANSEN: Thank you, Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: That's -- You haven’t done that in a while. MR. JANSEN: MS. WASTWEET: -- beautiful. And then my second point is I do like the business finish on these because that is closer to the original. I know that some collectors might think that they want the proof version of this, but in order to achieve the proof version, you would have to actually alter the sculpts because the original sculpts were not intended to be proofed and they were sculpted in such a way that they blended with the background to make use of the finish at the time. 47 So you would be monkeying around with the original artwork if you tried to do these proof. So I would be against that if we're trying to really honor the original artwork and sculpts and those sculptors that made these. Let's keep it as is. MR. SCARCINI: I have a comment on the lettering style for the denominations. We more or less are restricted to a Sans-serif because it's so small. If we try to duplicate that face up there that has "liberty" with the serif on it at that scale, it would be a real problem when we're striking it. So that's one reason that we went with the Sans-serif typeface. MS. WASTWEET: Right. And that's why I said you don’t have to match the type style, but be harmonious with it because, like you said serif would be almost impossible at that size, but if you one hand do it and then look at the Sans-serif Type 2, and find something that looks a long more in line with the antiquities. MR. SCARCINI: Of course, that's assuming 48 we have a plaster. MR. ANTONUCCI: Yes. The asset that we found thus far, mostly are galvanos. We found a couple of plasters, but they all have varying degrees of degradation to them. MS. WASTWEET: MR. BUGEJA: question, Heidi. Right. That brings me to another The acid quality, we may find, when we get to the assets and put them together, that some of the detail is lost or degraded because of whatever issue, what do we do there? Do we restore it to be, you know, sort of faithful to the original? And this begs to another question, the lettering of things like "liberty," it goes in sort of concentric fashion, do you get rid of the coin? As you can see, if you look at these images, they're not really that concentric because they were done by hand. Do we want them to be better or the way they were in 1916? MS. WASTWEET: questions. Those are excellent As far as the letters not being 49 concentric, that is indicative of that era and I would not clean up the letters. them more concentric. characters the same. I would not make I would keep those If you find degradation in the copies themselves that you, in your expertise, determine was not part of the original sculpt, but is, in fact, a degradation of the model, then I trust that you have the sensitivity and intelligence and know how to restore but not improve, if that makes sense. MR. BUGEJA: MS. WASTWEET: Okay. It does make sense. Did I answer all your questions? MR. BUGEJA: You did. MS. LANNIN: Heidi, a question. In that light in 1916, would they have put a period after "oz" for ounce? MS. WASTWEET: I don’t think so because even when we see "trust" the U is a V. They had a different aesthetic style and text psychology back then. a period. I don't think that they would've put That's my opinion, and others can 50 chime in on that. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: It certainly can be researched. MS. WASTWEET: And then back to your comment, Steve, about the assets not being plaster, do you have the technology to cut plaster from a scan of, say, a Galvano? MR. ANTONUCCI: We can do any of that. Some of the tolling we have -- I mean, I haven’t looked at them very closely, but some of them we have at varying types of Galvanos. good shape. Some are in Some are in not so good shape, and others are plaster. I just have to put everything altogether to go at it again. MS. WASTWEET: And this is a bit technical, but perhaps you could do your hand lettering on a separate sculpt and then scan that and then merge the digital files. MR. ANTONUCCI: Well, I'm going to let Don address the hand sculpting and the lettering. I know that that's a technique that we don’t really do anymore. I would add this, I'm 51 absolutely sure that we can hand model the letters digitally and make them look like they were hand sculpted. I'm not even concerned about that if that's what you're asking us to do. MS. WASTWEET: Yes. And I fully understand the integration of your technology and your new tools, as long as we're not using a computer font and you're hand-sculpting, even though that hand-sculpting is digital sculpting. I think that that still will give us the look. MR. MARKS: Yes. I'm just wondering about what the advantage of hand-sculpting at that scale would be when it finally comes down to the final coin. MS. WASTWEET: Just so that it looks organic. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. WASWEET: Can I weigh in on this? Yes, absolutely. That is just my opinion. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: important. I think this is really When you're hand-sculpting letters, if you would look at the A and the R on the 52 quarter or the dollar, the tail of those two letters are a little bit lengthened. In the computer fonts, you don’t have that graciousness. You also have a little bit of detailing in the Ls that you don’t have in a computer font. And when I'm looking at our cotemporary coins, I can always tell when we're using a computer font because the lettering just isn't done by eye. Your eye helps you move that letter where the computer does not, by eye or by hand, there's always the same space. So if you are doing it by hand, you have a definite difference. And as a medalist, I can see it, and I'm sure Heidi can too. MS. WASTWEET: Yes. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: So for us, for those of us who want to keep the integrity of these antiquities, then I think it really needs to be, you know, hand-lettered or done in such a way that it looks like it's been hand-lettered and I hope Don understands that. MS. WASTWEET: That's well-expressed. 53 MR. SCARINCI: When we do electronic or Illustrator fonts, I always, visually, check out the kerning myself and make sure that it looks right because I do know that, like you said, sometimes the spacing is not consistent to the lettering. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MR. SCARINCI: Right. So I'm always cognizant of that fact. MS. WASTWEET: Well, it's more than the kerning, but like she said, it's the shape of the letters, too. So it's not just hand-sculpting the letters, but actually hand drawing the letters so that they have that little extra artistic edge like they used to do. MR. ANTONUCCI: What I want to add to this conversation is we'll start with a digital font to sort of establish where we're going to go, how the font is going to be placed on the design. We then have very talented people. We'll massage these to make them look handlettered. But when we're done, they'll look like 54 they're hand-lettered. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Okay. I'm looking at the dime -- I'm sorry, the quarter. When you look at "United States," I mean, you can definitely see that this is hand-lettered because the spacing between "united" is just a tiny bit - I mean, just like a millimeter closer than the spacing between "states." I mean, it's a silly little thing, but, you know, if you can get that kind of handmade quality, I think you will keep the integrity of these old pieces. That's all I have. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Thank you, Jeanne. Herman, would you like to add anything? MR. BUGEJA: I would -- MS. LANNIN: I'm sorry. MR. BUGEJA: This is Michael Bugeja. MS. LANNIN: Oh, hi, Michael. not forgetting you, really I'm not. Okay. I'm I was just sort of looking down toward Herman. MR. BUGEJA: This is test for me. If can guarantee probably 100,000 more sales by just two 55 letters. What might they be? MS. LANNIN: Buy me? STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Letters. MS. LANNIN: Oh, sorry. Letters, MR. BUGEJA: Well, I can't believe the letters. CCAC and the Mint did not think of this, but I represent the numismatic community as well and we all covet the "D" dime, for Denver. MR. MARKS: Oh, my God. MS. LANNIN: The Mint mark. MR. BUGEJA: So you put the Mint mark "D" on the dime. Now, the Philly, you know, 1916 quarter is the real coveted one. So there's no question that that should not have a Mint mark. There wasn’t any Mint mark. Now, the 2016, there should not be a "D." The key date is an "S." And then you would have the three Mints represented. And just to let you know, the (inaudible) had 508,000 minted, and the "D" had one million, more than one million minted. 56 So just by changing the Mint mark, you accomplish two things; you would have three key dates in gold, no less, representing the three Mints. That's all I have to say. MS. LANNIN: you, Michael. Very interesting. Thank Herman, would you care to add anything? MR. VIOLA: Well, all I can say is that I'm fascinated by this kind of discussion, but I think the concept is wonderful. And I would start to become a collector myself because I love these centennial kind of concepts and I think it's a winner. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. My question would be with Michael's really interesting suggestion. What's legal putting a Mint mark and not having it struck at that Mint? What is legal if you put a Mint mark and not have it struck at that Mint? GREG: Okay. It shouldn’t be so -- difficult about that because it's not legislated. MS. LANNIN: Okay. 57 GREG: But I think there is a potential problem with is which -MR. VIOLA: So you could strike these in West Point but not put a "W" on them? GREG: Well, my point is -- I think what you're saying is could you put a "W" Mint mark and not strike it at West Point. MS. LANNIN: MR. VIOLA: Correct. Well, that was your question and mine is a supplemental. I'm trying to resolve this. GREG: There are some trade issues with that, without getting into too much detail. Whether or not it is a strike factor, it's not legislative. Mint mark? Could you strike it there without a Well, certainly. MR. VIOLA: Well, the mock up imply there's no Mint mark. So I'm now asking the question, logistically, legally, can the Mint not put a Mint mark on them and where do you plan to make them? MR. BUGEJA: There is the recently 58 produced silver eagle in San Francisco and Philadelphia that the flagging companies decided not try to figure out. MS. STAFFORD: So I was going to share that the facilities where these would be minted has not yet been determined. I think I can speak for ourselves and marketing staff, though, that very much interested in the commentary and the ideas that are being shared right now and that will absolutely be taken under consideration, but it has to be done with our manufacturing group. And as to why these images don’t have Mint marks, that wasn’t purposeful, other than the fact that these are simply mock ups to illustrate a concept. And as you're aware, when we bring our two-dimensional designs to the Committee, they don’t have Mint marks either. MR. JANSEN: Well, thanks to Mike for bringing the question. MR. BUGEJA: very simple. The reason why I asked is I will never be able to own these three coins, in an uncirculated condition. When 59 you add the Mint mark, you're actually doing something for the numismatic community. People like me, while I might never be able to own an uncirculated 1916 D Mercury dime, I at least have it in gold. I presented it kind of in a numismatic humorous way, but the key dates are key in marketing these coins in a way that is not only historic, but is numismatically desirable. MS. LANNIN: MR. HOGE: Robert. Could it be possible for these three coins to be made in each of the three mints? The dime in Denver, the half-dollar in San Francisco, the quarter in Philadelphia? I mean, that would kind of tie in with this theme that Michael has brought up. And I like that idea that for the half-dollar that the Mint mark would be included on the obverse on the some of the earlier pieces that we see here. GREG: Legally, they could be. Whether or not that's the -MR. HOGE: If it's a packaging problem or 60 something like that. GREG: It's mission impossible. I can't speak to it. MR. HOGE: I think collectors would really like it if something like that would come about. MS. LANNIN: further comments? Does anyone have any other Steve? MR. ANTONUCCI: No, I'm good. This was a very good conversation. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Well, I think that Michael's idea is very interesting and certainly something that I would like to see the Mint think about. I don’t know about anyone else, but it's intriguing to me and makes for extra sales. MR. BUGEJA: too. in it. And it would be accurate, Boy, that would really increase my interest Wow. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Well, I would like to thank everybody for bearing with me for my first two days as Chair of CCAC. And I look forward to a telephonic conversation sometime this summer, 61 over the Nancy Reagan coin. The next meeting with be in October. I believe that we have -- does somebody have a calendar really quickly? October 8th. in October. So we will see each other Thank you. (Whereupon, at 10:45 a.m., the CCAC Advisory Committee meeting adjourned.) * * * * * 62 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, GERVEL A. WATTS, the officer before whom the foregoing meeting was taken, do hereby certify that the testimony that appears in the foregoing pages was recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my direction; that said deposition is a true record of the proceedings; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this meeting was taken; and further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. GERVEL A. WATTS Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth of Virginia My Commission expires: October 31, 2016
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