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Meeting June 15, 2021 1 Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Public Meeting Moderated by Mary Lannin Tuesday, June 15, 2021 12:30 p.m. - 4:15 p.m. Video/Telephone Meeting 801 Ninth Street, NW Washington, D.C. 20220 Reported by: JOB No.: Natalie Schmitting 4614003 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 2 A P P E A R A N C E S Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee (CCAC) Members: Mary Lannin, Chairperson of the CCAC Sam Gill Lawrence Brown Dean Kotlowski Thomas Uram Robin Salmon Donald Scarinci Dennis Tucker Peter van Alfen Arthur "Art" Bernstein Michael Moran United States Mint Staff Members: April Stafford, Chief, Office of Design Management Boneza Hanchock, Design Manager Pam Borer, Design Manager Russell Evans, Design Manager Roger Vasquez, Design Manager Joseph "Joe" Menna, Chief Engraver Ron Harrigal, Manager, Design and Engraving www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 3 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd) United States Mint Staff Members: Jennifer Warren, Director, Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs and Liaison to the CCAC United States Mint Staff Members: Greg Weinman, Senior Legal Counsel and Counsel for the 2022 Negro Leagues Baseball Commemorative Coin Program Betty Birdsong, Deputy Director, Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs Elizabeth Young, Attorney Advisor and attorney assigned to the Merrill.s Marauders Congressional Gold Medal Program Liaisons: Bob Kendrick, President, Negro Leagues Baseball Museum John Passanisi, son of Merrill's Marauders, Robert Passanisi Robert Howland, son of Merrill's Marauders, Mr. Gilbert Howland Travis James West, President, U.S. Army Ranger Association www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 4 C O N T E N T S PAGE Call to Order/Roll Call 5 Approval of Minutes/Transcripts/Letters 7 Review/Discussion of obverse/reverse Candidate Designs for 2022 Negro Leagues Baseball Commemorative Coin Program 14 Review/Discussion of obverse/reverse Candidate Designs for Merrill's Marauders CGM www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 98 Meeting June 15, 2021 5 P R O C E E D I N G S MS. LANNIN: -- director of legislative and intergovernmental affairs and liaison to the CCAC. MS. WARREN: I'm present. the court reporter just got on. Natalie -rollcall, hear us. And I believe So We only just started with the which you do have in the script. So you should be able -- and if -- you hopefully are starting to record. REPORTER: recording. Yeah, I am. Yep. It's Mm-hmm. MS. WARREN: Okay. REPORTER: Mm-hmm. Thank you so much. MS. LANNIN: Yeah. Greg Weinman, senior legal counsel and counsel for the 2022 Negro Leagues Baseball Commemorative Coin Program. MR. WEINMAN: Good afternoon. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Greg. here, Mary. Betty Birdsong, Deputy Director legislative and intergovernmental affairs. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I'm Meeting June 15, 2021 6 MS. BIRDSONG: MS. LANNIN: Present. Thank you, Betty. Elizabeth Young, attorney advisor and attorney assigned to the Merrill's Marauders Congressional Gold Medal. Elizabeth, are you here? MS. STAFFORD: She may be joining later, Mary. MS. LANNIN: problem. Oh, sure. That's no Okay. And so the following liaisons will be on the call today: For the 2022 Negro Leagues Baseball Commemorative Coin Program, Mr. Bob Kendrick, who is president of the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum. And for the Merrill's Marauders Congressional Gold Medal, we have with us Mr. John Passani -- Passanisi -- I'm sorry; I apologize -- who is the son of Merrill's Marauders Mr. Robert Passanisi. Mr. Robert Holland, who is the son of Merrill's Marauders Mr. Gilbert Howland. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 7 And, finally, Mr. Travis James West, President of the US Army Ranger Association. The thank you all for joining us today. All right. Mint. I'd like to begin with the Are there any issues that need to be addressed before we start? Okay. Hearing none, the first item on the agenda is the review and the approval of the minutes and the secretary's letters from the May 18, 2021, meeting. Are there any comments on the documents? MR. BERNSTEIN: Art Bernstein moves approval. MS. LANNIN: Okay. I was going to say -DR. VAN ALFEN: MS. LANNIN: -- second. All right. little ahead of me, gentlemen. Okay. You're a So, Art, you move to accept. And, Peter, you're the second. All those in favor, please signal by saying aye. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 8 MULTIPLE VOICES: MS. LANNIN: to the motion? Aye. Are there any objections So it sounds like it's unanimous. And the minutes and the letters are approved. All right. Now we will move to consideration of the 2022 Negro Leagues Baseball Commemorative Coin Program, which is authorized by Public Law 116-209. April Stafford will present the portfolio design. April. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you so much. So here's some background on the program first: Public Law 116-209, the Negro Leagues Baseball Commemorative Coin Act, requires the United States Mint to issue three coins in commemoration of the 100th anniversary of the establishment of Negro Leagues: A $5 gold coin, a $1 silver coin, and a half-dollar clad coin, with designs emblematic of the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum and its mission to promote tolerance, adversity and inclusion. The year 2021 marked the 100th anniversary of the establishment of the Negro National www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 9 League, a professional baseball league formed in response to African-American players being banned from the major league. On February 13, 1920, Andrew Rube Foster convened a meeting of eight independent African-American baseball team owners at the Paseo YMCA in Kansas City, Missouri, to form a league of their own, establishing the Negro National League, the first successful organized professional AfricanAmerican baseball league in the United States. Soon, additional leagues formed in eastern and Southern states. The Negro Leagues would operate until 1960. The story of the Negro Leagues is a story of strong-willed athletes who forged a glorious history in the midst of an inglorious era of segregation in the United States. The passion of the Negro Leagues for the national pastime would not only change the game but also our country. The creation of the Negro Leagues provided a playing field for more than 2,600 African-American and Hispanic baseball players to showcase their world-class baseball www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 10 abilities. The Negro Leagues Baseball Museum was established in Kansas City, Missouri, in 1990 to use the many life lessons of the powerful story of triumph over adversity of Negro Leagues players, to promote tolerance, adversity, and inclusion. Artists were asked to develop paired, obverse, and reverse designs, showcasing the theme of pride, passion, and perseverance. These concepts, identified by the program liaison, represent some of the core characteristics that enable the players and team owners of the Negro Leagues to triumph over adversity. The players embodied the winning spirit of the Negro Leagues with pride. Playing the game was a passion for these players, that created joy in spite of the times. And more importantly, the story of the Negro Leagues is not a sad or somber one, but rather the power of the human spirit to persevere and triumph over adversity. In developing the portfolio, the Mint worked closely with Mr. Bob Kendrick, president of the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 11 Negro Leagues Baseball Museum. Though the liaison has not noted specific preferences at this point in the process, he has identified several individual and paired designs that are favored, and I will note them as we move throughout the portfolio. And we are very, very honored today to have Mr. Kendrick, our liaison for this program and, again, president of the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum, with us. Mr. Kendrick, would you like to say a few words to the committee? MR. KENDRICK: thank you. Well, first of all, And, Madam Chair, it is an absolute honor to be a part of this. All of us at the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum, as you all can well imagine, are tremendously proud of this effort. And I'm very grateful and thankful to all who have really poured their hearts and souls into these designs. We, needless to say, are just thrilled about this opportunity. And we're looking forward to hopefully bringing forth a series of coins that beautifully captures everything that she just mentioned, that www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 12 really makes the story of the Negro Leagues so powerful, so compelling, so inspirational. And that is the story that we've documented in Kansas City now for almost 31 years that we've been doing this. And to see our museum grow from essentially a one-room office in 1990 to now being recognized as America's National Negro Leagues Baseball Museum, as designated and had deemed so by the United States Congress in 2006, is indicative of a tremendous journey for a little museum that no one gave any chance of succeeding. But when you parallel that to the rise, the triumphant rise of the Negro almost identical. Leagues, they're No one gave the an opportunity to succeed. Negro Leagues And not only did it succeed, it changed the game of baseball. But more importantly, it changed our country for the better. And that's the story that we're so proud of. of And I think through this powerful series coins, we'll be able to even further convey that while hopefully helping position the museum for long-term sustainable growth as we try to make sure, number one, that we -- that the legacy that the Negro Leagues www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 13 lives on forever and, number two, that its life lessons that stem from this story will have tremendous impact in the lives of future generations to come. So I tip my cap to everyone involved for everything that they are giving to this program. And I'm excited to be a part of today's meeting. Thank you all so much. MS. LANNIN: Mr. Kendrick. Thank you so much, I really hope that we can channel the passion that you have for your job -- absolutely great art, and we can all come up with a package that you're really going to enjoy. So I'd like to ask Joe Menna right now if -- and Ron Harrigal if they have anything that they would like to talk to us about on the obverse designs to this coin program. MR. MENNA: This is Joe Menna. I don't -MS. LANNIN: MR. MENNA: afternoon. Hi, Joe. Good morning -- or I have nothing special to add. MS. LANNIN: All right. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Thank you. Thanks. Meeting June 15, 2021 14 Ron, do you have anything to add? MR. HARRIGAL: not. Yeah, Mary, no, I do Thank you very much. MS. LANNIN: Okay. So if we have any technical or legal questions from the committee on -MS. WARREN: Mary, this is Jennifer. I don't believe -MS. LANNIN: Okay. MS. WARREN: I don't think April actually went through the designs yet. MS. LANNIN: Right. All right. So, okay, April, why don't you try starting with No. 1 for the gold. Thank you. MS. STAFFORD: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I just wanted to, again, thank you, Mr. Kendrick, for being with us. I did explain to the Committee that you identified designs that you felt were strong but were very open to hearing the Committee's feedback. Sir, if as I move through the portfolio, if there is any design that you do feel is strong or you favor and I don't mention that, please www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 15 don't hesitate to add that in. And I will also let the Committee know that the required inscriptions for these coins included designation, of course, of the value of the coin, the year 2022, and the words "Liberty," "In God We Trust," "United States of America," and "E Pluribus Unum." We are presenting these designs as pairs, as explained earlier. And so we will start with Gold Pair 1. In Gold Pair 1, Obverse 1 shows a picture in action; and then its corresponding design reverse one depicts a batter ready to hit that ball. These designs lock the player in the eternal moment in which the ball crosses between the mound and the plate, representing the legacy and pride of Negro Leagues players. The obverse bears the inscription "Negro Leagues Baseball," while "Their Legacy Plays On" is inscribed on the reverse. This pairing is favored by our liaison, as it represents just the basics of the love of the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 16 game. Moving on to Gold Pair 2. Obverse 2 prominently features a baseball with inscriptions reading "They Took Pride When They Took the Field," while complementary design Reverse 2 depicts a player from the Kansas City Monarchs, the longest running franchise in the history of the Negro Leagues. The player, bat in hand, is acknowledging the crowd by tipping his hat, which is also a reference to the Negro Leagues 100th anniversary campaign. The additional inscription is "Celebrating a Game-Changing Century." In Gold Pair 3, Obverse 3 pictures to baseball bats crossed over a baseball and a diamond, with inscriptions "Celebrating A Game-Changing Century" and "NLBM," which stands for Negro Leagues Baseball Museum. The corresponding design, Reverse 3, depicts a player sliding into a base while an opposing player reaches for the ball. In Gold Pair 4, Obverse 4 features a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 17 Negro Leagues player at bat, looking intently at the ball heading his way. The complementary design Reverse 4 depicts a tip of the hat, a symbolic gesture of respect for those who played for the sheer love of the game and persevered, playing with pride and passion. Additional inscriptions on the obverse are "Negro Leagues" and "NLBM." "Their Legacy plays on" is also inscribed on the reverse. This also is a favorite pairing of the liaison. In Gold Pair 5, Obverse 5 depicts the the tense moment of a batter poised to hit a baseball, symbolic of the excitement and skill players brought to the field. The complementary design Reverse 5 depicts a player's tip of the hat. Additional inscriptions on the obverse are "Negro Leagues Baseball" and "For Love Of The Game" on the reverse. At this also is a favorite pairing of the liaison. Gold Pair 6, Obverse 6 depicts the moment a ground ball is about to be caught in the hands of a player. The reverse, Reverse 6, depicts a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 18 baseball diamond. Additional inscriptions on the obverse are "Negro Leagues Centennial" and "Their Legacy Plays on" and "Their Legacy Plays On" and "NLBM" on the reverse. In Gold Pair 7, Obverse 7 depicts League founder Andrew Rube Foster in front of a packed baseball stadium, with the inscriptions "We Are The Ship" and "Andrew 'Rube' Foster." Nicknamed the father of Black baseball, Foster was a player who later became the president and treasurer of Negro Leagues Baseball. Reverse 7 shows a baseball diamond and the laurel wreath is attributed to the athleticism of the Negro Leagues Baseball players who graced the playing field. Additional inscriptions on the obverse are "Negro Leagues"; and "All Else The Sea" and "NLBM" on the reverse. In Gold Pair 7A, Obverse 7 is seen again paired with Reverse 7A, a version of the previous reverse with "We Are The Ship All Else The Sea" added as an inscription. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 19 In Gold Pair 8, Obverse 8 is a portrait of League founder Rube Foster with his well-known quote "We are the ship ... All Else The Sea" written below as an inscription. The quote, which was essentially Foster's declaration of independence, means that the love of the game was so great it was worth the adversity faced. The complementary design Reverse 8 depicts the shape of the classic baseball diamond with the quote "They Took Pride When They Took The Field" placed along the first and third baselines where players traditionally stand for pre-game introductions. The dates 1920 and 1960 on the home plate indicate the active dates of the Negro Leagues. I will note that the obverse in this pairing, Obverse 8, is a favorite design of the liaison, as he feels it's the strongest depiction of Rube Foster, who, again, is known as the architect or master mind, if you will, of the Negro Leagues. In Gold Pair 9, Obverse 9 depicts a portrait of Rube Foster, while the corresponding design Reverse 9 depicts a baseball diamond featuring www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 20 the inscriptions "We are the SHIP All Else the SEA" and "1920 NLB 1960." Leagues Baseball. NLB stands for, of course, Negro The verse also has the additional inscription "Negro Leagues Baseball." In Gold Pair 9A, Design 9A provides an alternate version of the obverse seen in the previous pairing that includes Rube Foster's signature. The obverse in this pairing is also a favorite design of the liaison. In Gold Pair 10, Obverse 10 features a portrait of Rube Foster, and its corresponding reverse, Reverse 10, features a baseball sitting on top of a home plate with the inscription "Where History Touches Home!" The design elements are a symbolic portrayal of the way sports can integrate people and bring them together, with the ball becoming a vehicle to show the integration of the game, while the home plate represents the goal that must be attained to score and win. I will share that the inscription "Where History Touches Home" no longer resonates with Mr. Kendrick, as it specifically associated with the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 21 museum and the museum's mission, as opposed to speaking universally to the Negro Leagues. Should any recommended designs have this inscription, it is requested by our liaison that it be replaced with "Their Legacy Plays On." In Gold Pair 10A, Obverse 10A features a portrait of Rube Foster with his inspirational quote "We Are The Ship All Else The Sea." The corresponding design Reverse 10A, an alternate version of the previous one, depicts a baseball framed within a home plate with the inscription "Where History Touches Home!" Gold Obverse 11 prominently features a portrait of Andrew Rube Foster with the inscription "Rube Foster." Gold Obverse 12 depicts a baseball player tipping his cap juxtaposed in front of a baseball. Again, dipping your cat is the ultimate show of respect in baseball. This design shows respect to all who made this wonderful sport, pastime, and profession possible, and to all the Negro Leagues players who created a legacy to inspire future www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 22 generations. This also was a favorite design of the liaison. Madam Chair, that concludes the portfolio for the gold options. Would you like to pause for discussion or move on to the silver pairs? UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Mary? Madam Chair, you might be on mute. MS. LANNIN: MS. STAFFORD: Can you hear me? Yes, I can now. Would you like me to pause for discussion, or shall I move on to the silver pairs? MS. LANNIN: would like you to pause. Yes. Yes, please. I I think we should just do them -- we should do each individual grouping and -and talk about them, because we have so many designs. So, Joe and Ron, do you have anything to talk about these designs? MR. HARRIGAL: This is Ron. No. before -MS. LANNIN: MR. HARRIGAL: Okay. -- It's a good portfolio. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 As Meeting June 15, 2021 23 Joe? MR. MENNA: Thanks, Ron. This is Joe Menna. Same thing. And the like before, as I said before, any -- any concerns of different patterns or textures in the -- either the baseball diamonds or things like that, we can accommodate all that. So not to worry. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thank you. Thank you so much. So do any of the committee members have a legal or technical question right now before we talk individually about what we like? DR. BROWN: Lawrence Brown. Madam Chair, this is I have a question. MS. LANNIN: DR. BROWN: Yes. My question is whether or not there would be any matter pertaining to "five dollars" spelled out versus the dollar sign plus the No. 5? MS. LANNIN: to answer that? Okay. Greg, do you want Is that your question? MR. WEINMAN: Yeah, I don't believe there's anything in the legislation that requires it www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 24 to be either $5 or -- either way. I think it's left open to the artist's interpretation. DR. BROWN: MS. LANNIN: MR. WEINMAN: Thank you. Any other questions? I will check, just to confirm. MS. LANNIN: Okay. So let's -- we're going to begin talking about the five-dollar gold. And I would ask that all members keep the comments to five minutes or less. We had kind of a late start today. And please identify yourself when you start. Jennifer is going to be keeping track of time, and she's going to let me know when you're close to five minutes, and then that will be that. So if we have more questions that come up, save it for the end, please, if you could. So Robin Salmon, if I could begin with you, I would appreciate that. MS. SALMON: This is Robin Salmon. Thank you, Mary. I also liked the pairings that Mr. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 25 Kendrick liked very much. Gold Pair 1, those two designs were clean and deliberate and looked very good. Gold Pair 5 also had the symbolism that I thought was important to incorporate. And I will say that what I was thinking with all of these was to have a -- to focus on the player and to have a player doing something different on each side of each coin. So that we have hitters, batters, runners, catchers, et cetera. And I wasn't totally successful on that with my -- the things that I liked the most, but I'm still trying to work in that direction. As worthy as Mr. Foster was and is to the sport and Negro Leagues Baseball, I think in this sense, it's probably better not to focus on him. So I didn't really look at any of those other than to note that No. 8 did seem to be a good likeness. And thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much Robin, and thanks for giving your rationale. Mike Moran. MR. MORAN. Thank you, Mary. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Mike Meeting June 15, 2021 26 Moran here. When I first picked up the gold -well, let me say, first, before we do this, we in the past have encouraged the Mint continually to do pairings with our artists wherever possible. Sometimes it's been successful; sometimes it's not. But no artist, I think, really deep down truly wants to see his work muled with another artist on a coin. I think particularly with this portfolio, which is very strong, that we can adhere to and try and respect the pairing that the Mint has presented to us. myself on this. I certainly will be voting that way And I hope to see more like this. Now, on the specifics, on the gold coin, the first obverse or first pairing I thought was excellent. It told a story. wanted it to do. It showed action. the size of a nickel. before. It did everything I But not on a coin You all have heard me say this This is not the kind of design you want to put on the five-dollar gold coin. You want it on either the dollar or the clad coin so that you really get a full feel for the action that the two figures www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 27 present. piece. It would get lost on a five-dollar gold I hope that we can come back and think about that as we look at the other two portfolios. I like No. 4. hat. I like the tip of the I like the image there. But, again, it's a bit small on a five-dollar gold piece. And then I move to No. 5. This does it, but is it emblematic enough to suit the sponsor? And when I saw the fact that he did indeed like this, the answer is yes, it does. Now, I'll take a little bit about 9A as well. 9A really does get the portrait right. the right size for a five-dollar gold piece. It's And in that regard, we feel like we should have a portrait of Rube Foster or a portrait of anybody on the front of the five-dollar gold piece. It needs to be up close like this and not set back towards a three-quarters bust, as I believe you can call it. So for this grouping, I'll be looking at probably No. 5, with some votes to No. 4. don't know what I'll do about No. 1. And I Maybe -- we'll see how things go with the others as to whether I move www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 28 to bring it back into consideration. Thank you, Mary. MS. LANNIN: Thanks, Mike, and thank you for your rationale. Dr. Lawrence Brown. DR. BROWN: Thank you so much. This is Lawrence Brown, and I want to thank the Mint and the sponsor for this opportunity. This is wonderful for someone like me who, in fact, played baseball -- or played at baseball and aspired to play baseball -- to see all the wonderful designs had me captivated to say where -- what was happening in this game. So for example, in the pair that I think is 3 -- it's that reverse -- that stimulated me to say whether or not this is a play at first base, depending on where we were talking about, or at second base or third base. So this is quite stimulating to me. I think in terms of the designs, I would land, to boot, with Mike and Robin in many respects. So the designs that are likely to get my vote are going to be 1, 3, 5, 9, and 9A probably www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 29 because, again, they picture, really, the sport in a way that I think is very positive. And with respect to 9, I think that in some cases that it is really important to really highlight the heroes and sheroes. I think in this case much of the public may not be aware of the National Leagues -- Negro Leagues Baseball. So I think it really is helpful to add a portrait that will ask them to be asking the question: Who was he; what was his role? Thank you, now. MS. LANNIN: Thanks Dr. Brown. Donald Scarinci. MR. SCARINCI: Thank you. Thank you, Mary. Can you know, first of all, the designs in general are just wonderful. And I just wanted to compliment the artists for the designs in general. I will have to say, though, that -- and it's perhaps a function of, you know, the remote working that we're all still doing, you know, which is, you know, the way we communicate with the artists www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 30 and fusion artists anyway anyway -- but there is definitely -- some of these great designs are absolutely not going to work on the five-dollar gold. And for whatever reason, it doesn't appear that the artists took the size of the planchet into consideration on some of these otherwise really good designs. So I think we obviously have to do that. And the first cut that we make when we look at these design needs to be to hold up the gold coin size. And if you don't know what the size is, it's actually on the bottom. You know, but we need to know that this is a small coin. Right? This is not a big coin. So, you know, these designs that would look fine and would look very good, very attractive on dollar-size planchets or even half-dollar-size planchets, you know, we just can't use them on the gold coin. So, you know, I look at these designs, first, from -- by taking or removing those designs that just aren't going to work on this small size. And, you know, so I look, you know, at No. 5, which I www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 31 think is, you know, is, like, a really cool design, especially on the gold coin. I look at No. 6 which would work from a size point of view, although I don't think it's as compelling as No. 5. And then you could go with the portrait on 9A, you know, if you wanted to do a portrait. Right? You know, you could certainly also do the portrait, you know, in the stand-alone, which would be the better portrait. If you're going to do a portrait, the stand-alone on Obverse 11, you know, that would actually be the best portrait for a gold coin if you wanted to put a portrait on a gold coin. Now, let me talk about that for a few minutes. The Gold sells the least. Right? So from the point of view of, you know, obviously the entity, the supporting entity is looking to get that surcharge. the day. Right? That's the objective at the end of So we can't lose sight of that objective. They want to make money. Pretty coins sell. that are cluttered and ugly don't sell. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Coins And the track Meeting June 15, 2021 32 record onward and onward to show that. And the gold portrait, to put a portrait on a gold coin almost dooms the gold coin. Right? Because people -- you know, the purchasing drops precipitously from the little clad, you know, half-dollars to the dollars. more rarified air. And then the gold, it's So for somebody to be compelled to buy the gold coin, you have to give them a reason. If you're going to put a portrait on the gold coin, you're eliminating a lot of buyers, I'm afraid. You know, 'cause they just don't care about the portraits, you know. So -- and I'm talking about the general collecting community, as opposed to people who are going to buy these coins that have an interest in these coins. But the gold coin's an expensive item. A portrait on a gold coin, the track record, if you look at the Red Book, it just doesn't -- they don't do well. So I wouldn't put a portrait on the gold coin. If you want to do a portrait, put it on the half-dollar, if you really feel the need to do a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 33 portrait, you know. But I would go for the gold coin to make it pretty, because if you look at the Red Book, the mintages are high; when you look at the coins that you -- pop out at you and say, oh, would you, this is really pretty, I got to have this, I got to have that, you know, they are -- you know, the gold coins that are pretty will sell. And from a sponsoring entity point of view, you really have to be thinking about how am I going to get my -- what's my best shot to get my surcharge. Right? I mean, and we can do everything here. We can think about everything else later. But, you know, that's why they've gone through all this effort to get Congress to approve a program. So, you know, they hope to make a surcharge so they can do things with the money. So I favor No. 5 for that reason, as being the best design and most likely to sell a gold coin. I also just want to just say one last thing which is I love the pairing of the same artist doing the obverse and reverse. I've been talking www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 34 about that for years. I'm delighted to see that. That's it. MS. LANNIN: Thank you very much, Donald. All right. Sam Gill, what are your thoughts? MR. GILL: Thank you, Madam Chair. This is Sam Gill. Well, first of all, I enjoyed looking at this portfolio virtually throughout the entire series, each and every single design. was just really, really well done. It was fun; it And I compliment the artists so much on this. I focused very much on Pair 1 and 5. I hear Donald and I hear Mike, and maybe -- and they could very well be right. Personally, I would be very, very happy with the 1 on the gold coin because there is spacing around the player. I love the idea that he's pitching and then the batter on the reverse is looking for that pitch. And for both 1 and 5, I like the idea that "Negro Leagues Baseball" is spelled out and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 35 prominent so that people can see what this story is trying to tell. So I'm going to go with 1 and 5. I did not focus on Rube Foster, although I love the designs very much. be a most interesting guy. I found him to But because there were so many players, I think 2600 players, throughout the years, that played on the Negro Leagues Baseball teams, so I just wanted to focus more on generic players. And so 1 and 5 would be my choices. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much, Sam. Dennis Tucker. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to address Dr. Brown's comment really quickly about the spelling out of denominations versus using a dollar sign and a numeral or some other combination of typography. 2007 and was kind of a turning point for the Mint. That's when the Presidential Dollars came out, which were circulating coins that for the first time used the dollar sign. And that's also the year that the Jamestown 400th anniversary five-dollar www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 36 gold coin came out, which used a dollar sign and a numeral 5. And then a few years later, in 2013, the Girl Scouts of the USA Centennial Silver Dollar used a dollar sign and a numeral 1. So it's really -- it's only in recent years that typography has been used. And since 2015, at least one commemorative coin design every year -- nearly every year has it used that. I'm a traditionalist. it spelled out. I prefer seeing I think that follows, you know, traditionally, the 1792 Mint Act more faithfully. But it is kind of the way that modern commemorative coin programs have spelled out the denominations. Specifically looking at this program, I liked Gold Pair No. 1. And, Mike, I understand what you're saying about the size of the canvas, but I think symbolic that these figures are iconic enough and enough that they get the job done. mean, if you I look at the 1995 Civil War Battlefield Preservation gold piece, the main element is a bugler on horseback. And you don't need to see every buckle on his saddle www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 37 and every stitch of his uniform to see what he is at that size of a coin. happening here. players. I think we have the same thing You can see that these are baseball One is pitching; one is batting. I think this would be fine for the five-dollar gold piece canvas. Specifically about these designs, I like the way they tell a story. action-packed. It's bold; it's You look at the obverse; the pitcher is throwing a ball. You flip the coin over; the batter is ready to swing. I also found the text to be thoughtfully laid out. On the reverse, it cleverly uses the arc of the lettering to foreshadow the batter's swing. When he swings that bat, it's going to follow along "E PLURIBUS UNUM" down to "$5" and then up along "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA." I like that effect on this coin. And then the narrative on the text also carries over from obverse to reverse. "NEGRO LEAGUES BASEBALL" on the obverse and "THEIR LEGACY PLAYS ON" on the reverse. This is a good balance. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 It's not Meeting June 15, 2021 38 trying to put the entire message onto one side or the other. And I think it works quite well. There are some things that I did not like about other designs. I won't get into that here. I might talk about some of the information architecture and similar concerns when I talk about the other coins in the program. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thanks, Dennis. Dean Kotlowski. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Thank you, Madam Chair. This is Dean Kotlowski. I'd like to give three tributes to begin with. First, a tribute to the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum, which I happened to visit 20 years ago, and I think it's just a wonderful place. I'd like to give a tribute to the artists. This was a very strong portfolio. And lastly, a tribute to Don and Mike who in the past two years have gotten me to think more is and more about the five-dollar gold and what appropriate and what is not. And they will see where www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 39 I am going along with them and maybe departing from them. I think there are two things we can do with the gold coin: say something about some of the essentialism of baseball or do a portrait of Rube Foster. I lean toward the former. And I agree with almost everything Dennis said. I really like No. 1. I think there's enough action there that that would work on the fivedollar gold coin. PLAYS ON." I like the quotation "THEIR LEGACY I'm glad to see "Where History Touches Home" is something that is not going to be worked with. I like the quote from Rube Foster about the ship and the sea. I don't think that the quotation "they took pride when they took the field" really gets us anywhere because I would have just assumed that they did. That would have been my default. reiterate, I really like No. 1. So just to And I wasn't as impressed with No. 5, but Mike and Don have sort of persuaded me to give it a few points. I'd like to maybe see faces or maybe just bodies here. thought www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I Meeting June 15, 2021 40 that would be a little more compelling. Here's where my education about the five-dollar gold coin, really, you're going to see that. I would've liked a portrait of Rube Foster with a -- with the stadium. on. But that's just too much going And there's always too much text with those. So like Mike, I actually was drawn to No. 9A. I thought that if you're going to do the portrait, do it as big as possible. nice quotation on the back. I think there's a You have the diamond. And I also like the signature well enough. And just a little bit of shout out to Obverse 12, not to forget about it. I'll give it a few points. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much, Dean. Peter Van Alfen. PETER VAN ALFEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. One of the things that I was looking at across this portfolio was a way to try to tie all of the designs across the three points together, you know, just to make the set, you know, a little bit www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 41 more compelling. And it just so happens that those designs that I found most attractive across the set are also the designs that I think have a narrative arc, and they also, in fact, correspond to Mr. Kendrick's preferences. And I think that this is something that we should discuss, you know, in the selection of these designs, just how to tie, you know, the three points together. So my preference for the gold is No. 1, because here we have the pitch and swing. And then with the silver 1, we have the connect, you know, with the ball and then the fan catch of the home run. And then with the clad 3, we have running the bases and then, you know, the hands on the bat which could be sort of a celebration. So, you know, in those designs, I see sort after a narrative art that ties, you know, these three coins together. So my preference for the gold is No. 1. And I do take Mike and Don's comments, you know, about the size of the coin, and I certainly, you know, will support No. 5 as well. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 But I think Meeting June 15, 2021 42 there is a stronger connection and a stronger arc, you know, with No. 1 when we look across all of these coins. So in the hopes of just keeping this brief, I'll end there. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thanks so much, Peter. Art Bernstein. MR. BERNSTEIN: Hi. This is Art Bernstein coming to you from Cleveland, Ohio, the site of the League park baseball stadium where the Cleveland Buckeyes won the Negro World Series in 1945. After that little advertisement, I will tell you that I like design Gold Pair 1 for the reasons already stated: I appreciate the sense of action, the throwing, the hitting. One design that hasn't -- no one else has commented on was Gold Pair 2. I was attracted to the specific reference -- somewhat subtle reference to the Kansas City Monarchs, the team that, I think, played the longest and also the team from which Jackie Robinson began his career in baseball. And I just thought acknowledging a specific team had some value. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 43 If we're going to utilize a design featuring Rob [sic] Foster, I also like the design 9A. And as someone else mentioned, that featured his name as a signature, which I took to be an autograph; that ties in with the baseball fan. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much, Art. Tom Uram MR. URAM: Thank you, Madam Chair. In looking over the designs, I too -- I mean, it's a fantastic portfolio. And I do like Design No. 1 and, of course, No. 5 based on a number of the different discussion points by my colleagues here. I was looking over the Red Book now, and Don is right that, you know, many of the gold coins, if you go back through here from Boys Town to the veterans to Mark Twain, all of those were portraits. And if the stakeholder would, you know, want a portrait, I think that, for a number of other reasons, this could be a good coin to have that on. So I'm going to give some votes to 1 and 5 and also www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 44 No. 11 and No. 9. I think that, in particular, No. 9 has -- would really look well, and so would No. 11. So since we already know the status of the -- you know, the sales for gold, for the most part, in -market, this might be a good place to have it, as it relate to the entire portfolio. So I will give some points to the portrait as well as probably, then, with my second choice is No. 5. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thanks, Tom. And, okay, I agree with the majority, it seems, of my colleagues. 1, absolutely. it. I -- my favorite was No. I kept -- my eye kept going back to It passes my tabletop test, which is where you would like to pick it up. I liked No. 5 as well. And I think that there's enough negative space on both of these pairs -- or on each of these pairs, I should say, that it would look just fine on a five-dollar planchet. So does anybody have any other comments to make? Any from the staff of the Mint? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 45 MR. MORAN: MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Mary, this is Mike Moran. Yes, Mike. My meeting was acting up. I've taken a little bit of heat here by not falling in love with No. 1 right away. Let me, in answer to the criticisms -- or they're not criticisms, but the comments: I know you like No. 1, the design, and it is beautiful when you see it on these sheets. But think how much better it would look on the silverdollar coin or the clad half, either one. You dumb the design down when you put it on a five-dollar gold piece. It's the size of a nickel. So let me propose -- and I will propose it as we get to these, just to give you a heads up -I'm going to ask that it be a write-in for both the silver dollar and the clad, and we'll see where it goes, 'cause I think it's going to be a split vote on this one, and I think 5 will carry but not by much. MS. LANNIN: Okay, Mike. Thank you. So I guess -MR. MORAN: MS. LANNIN: Don't you love that? You know what, and you www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 46 make my job of doing the minutes so easy. I wanted to thank you for that. Okay. Anybody have any other discussion? Mr. Kendrick, what do you think of this whole process? MR. KENDRICK: Well, that -- they're having the exact same challenges that I had trying to -- virtual connectivity interruption -- it -- it was, as you can imagine, a very difficult task for me and certainly not understanding fully the process and trying to take into consideration all of the advice that the team was giving me as related specifically to sizes and those kind of things is what shaped my direction. But, you know, in the end, as the one gentleman said, we are in the business of selling coins. So whatever -MS. LANNIN: MR. KENDRICK: Exactly. -- design that ultimately we think gives us the best chance to sell coins, that's the one I like best. But, now, they are all tremendous, tremendous designs, and it was a very www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 47 challenging process, which is why I'm so elated with the entire team of artists. MS. LANNIN: And so I -- Well, I think our artists really did -MR. KENDRICK: MS. LANNIN: They really did. -- a really great job, and I hope that we can keep you happy and get you the three coins that are going to make you the most money. How's that? MR. KENDRICK: Yeah, I know y'all will. I know you will. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Anybody else have any last-minute comments? MR. TUCKER: Madam Chair? MS. LANNIN: Yes, Dennis? MR. TUCKER: I actually like Mike's idea of moving Gold Pair 1 under the silver dollar. think that's a great idea. perfectly there. I I think it would work I do think it would work as a five- dollar gold coin, but I think it would be -- it'd be very eye-catching and very popular as a silver dollar. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 48 I wonder if we might hold off voting and ranking each denomination until the end; is that what you plan to do? That might be helpful rather than voting on gold now and then discussing silver and voting on silver, then discussing clad and voting on clad. MS. LANNIN: Well, since we -- MS. WARREN: This is Jennifer. MS. LANNIN: Jennifer, go ahead. MS. WARREN: -- I would suggest that I -- we -- you all do that, to save time, as well as for the next two, the silver and clad, to allow April to go through both portfolios and just to talk about the ones that have preference, 'cause you have the description of the others. And then that way you can lead to conversation and then to the final vote. Just for time period, because we are behind time. MS. LANNIN: Great. So we will continue with April reading the descriptions for the one-dollar silver, please. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you, Madam Chair. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 49 And just to underscore what I heard Jennifer say and make sure you're okay with it, Madam Chair, given that the Committee has had the designs and the design descriptions for some time and the fact that we started the meeting a little late, I'm prepared to move through the design portfolio, pausing at the designs that are identified as a favorite designed by Mr. Kendrick, reading the description for those, and then submitting to the transcriber all of the design descriptions for the record, if that is okay with you, Madam Chair. Is that all right? MS. LANNIN: would like you to do that. That's preferable. I Thank you very much, April. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. All righty. So -MR. WEINMAN: MS. STAFFORD: MR. WEINMAN: And -Sorry. Go ahead. Yeah, Mary, this is Greg. Just to let you know, also, I think it's -- I think I -- it's perfectly fine to do this, score everything, and then you can make recommendations by motion based www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 50 on what comes out of the scoring, if we want to move along fairly quickly here. MS. LANNIN: MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Thank you. All righty. Thank you. So we'll start with the silver portfolio. start with Silver Pair 1. And we In Silver Pair 1, Obverse 1 features a batter hitting a baseball, and its corresponding design Reverse 1 shows a crowd of hands excitedly reaching upward for a home run ball. additional inscription "NLBM" is included. The This is a favored design pairing of the liaison. We have Silver Pair 2. Obverse depicts a player in action about to throw a pitch, with the inscription "THE SOUL OF BASEBALL." I will not read the reverse, and I will share with you that the obverse is a favored design of Mr. Kendrick's, our liaison. Same thing with Silver Pair 3, Obverse 3 features a Kansas City Monarchs hitter at batch, and this obverse is a favorite design of the liaison. In Silver Pair 4, Obverse 4 gives us a player's eye view of a pitch being delivered to the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 51 catcher at the plate. Again, this obverse is a favorite design of the liaison. We have Silver Pair 5, Silver Pair 6, Silver Pair 6A, Silver Pair 7, Silver Pair 8, Silver Pair 8A, Silver Pair 9. Silver Obverse 9 is inspired by classic team photos, with a diverse group of nine players. This obverse is a favorite design of the liaison, as it represents the team aspect of the game. We also have Silver Obverse 10, Silver Obverse 10A, Silver Obverse 11, and Silver Obverse 12. This is a favored design of the liaison as well. Madam Chair, shall I go ahead and cover the clad, or would you like me to pause? MS. LANNIN: MS. STAFFORD: designs. All righty. Yes, please. Yes, please. Moving on to the clad Clad Pair 1, Obverse 1 depicts a sliding into home while the catcher is in and includes the inscription "WHERE HISTORY player position TOUCHES HOME." The corresponding design Reverse 1 shows a group You of Negro Leagues Baseball players. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 52 The liaison identified both the obverse and reverse as strong designs but does not necessarily favor them as a pairing. We have Clad Pair 2, Clad Pair 3. Clad Obverse 3 depicts a baserunner barely beating the throw to home plate. The eight stars along the top represent the eight charter members of the on Negro National League when it was formed in 1920. The complementary design, Reverse 3, depicts a familiar sandlot baseball tradition: the captain of each team using a bat to determine which side bats first. Additional inscriptions on the obverse read "CELEBRATING A GAME-CHANGING CENTURY" and "NLBM 1920-2020/" "THEY WENT TO BAT FOR CHANGE!" is inscribed on the reverse. This is a favorite pairing of the liaison. I will note that the liaison particularly appreciated the uniqueness of these designs, noting that he might expect the reverse to resonate broadly, as it features a sentimental symbol of community that people would recognize from playing the game during their own childhood. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 53 We also have Clad Pair 3A. This pairing offers the same design pairing but with changes to the border of the obverse. And this also is a favorite pairing of the liaison. We have Clad Pair 4, Clad Pair 5, Clad Pair 5A, Clad Pair 6. Obverse 6 depicts overlapping portraits of two players peering out to the viewer framed by a baseball positioned in the background. This obverse in this pairing is a favorite design of the liaison. In Clad Pair 7, Obverse 6A shows one man peering at the viewer framed by a baseball positioned in the background. This obverse, as well, is a favorite design of Mr. Kendrick's, our liaison. In Clad Pair 8, Obverse 6A offers a similar design pairing but with a different reverse. But, again, it's the same obverse, which I believe is -- yes, it's exactly the same as in Clad Pair 7. So it remains a favorite design by our liaison. And, finally, you have Clad Obverse 9. Madam Chair, that concludes the portfolio. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 54 MS. LANNIN: All right. Thank you so much, April. What I'd like to do is I like to talk about the silver first and go through the Committee members before we talk about the clad. I think it's asking a lot for Natalie to keep track of all the stuff. So let me begin with Dean Kotlowski. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Thank you, Madam Chair. This is Dean Kotlowski. And, Mike, you persuaded me. Okay? So with -- I'll get to the -- of what I was trying to do with all three of these. I wanted something that would put me in the game, something that said something essential about baseball, and something that said something in the sense of about the Negro Leagues Baseball. So just to kind of reiterate here, on the Gold Pair No. 5, if we went with that one, you zoom in on the hands and the tipping of the hat; that's very nice. Foster. Or you do the portrait of Rube Again, that would be for the gold. For the silver, Gold obverse and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 55 Reverse No. 1, I think, really is an excellent design that everyone fell in love with. But to go to the actual silver designs, which is what we're supposed to be talking about here, I do think No. 1 put me in the game. This is the one that -- exactly -- the one that shows the guy hitting the ball and then shows the fans struggling for the ball while also waving a pennant. this was a very clever design. I thought that It brought a lot of elements together with really nice balance. And just a little bit of a shout out with the silver designs, Nos. 6 and 6A, which showed a uniform, something that you would see at a baseball museum, and I thought that that was very good. I want to give a shout out to the artist who drew No. 8 and 8A and 9. very clever. I think it was The problem is it doesn't work. looks just too much like a wheel. It But I -- there was some imagination there, and a shout out. The one that I wanted to fall in love with was 10 and 10A, because it put me in the game. I'm either at Yankee Stadium or Nationals Park and I'm www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 56 watching an outfielder. And I love, especially, 10A. I'm glad you stopped there. The use of the lettering in the wall: The problem is it's not an outfield; it's an infield. So everything is really sort of thrown off, and they could go with that. But those are my comments, and I look forward to talking about the clad, where I have something in mind. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Tom Uram. Are you with us? MR. URAM: Thanks -- MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: super. Thanks, Dean. There you go. Yeah. The designs are And I too -- if we go down the road where we're going to take that reverse -- I mean the Gold Pairing No. 1 and put that on the silver dollar, then I'm kind of looking at now where are we with the clad? And many of the designs -- I like the No. 1 pairing here -- virtual connectivity interruption -And I also like the hands that were in -- let's see here, number -- the hands with the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 57 baseball. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Tom, that's in the clad. That's in the clad, yeah. So, yeah, that was No. 3, I believe. Or let's see here. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Let's just talk about silver, huh? MR. URAM: I guess I was trying to figure out, if we end up going with Mike's thoughts here. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Yeah, yeah. So on silver, I'm going to stick with No. 1, then, pretty much. And then with the idea of maybe that clad one being the gold piece, actually, Clad No. 3 being the gold. Thanks, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Okay. All right, Tom. You got me anyway. Peter Van Alfen, please. MR. VAN ALFEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a really strong preference for No. 1, the silver, as well. I like the action; I like www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 58 the immediacy. design. I think that this is a very clever In looking over all the various earlier baseball-related commemoratives done by the U.S. Mint, I mean, there's nothing quite like this at all. Though this would be my preference. And I also thought that 6 and 7 were quite good. But, again, I think that No. 1 will work best, particularly paired with some of the other obverse reverses in the other notes. So I'll leave it there. MS. LANNIN: Thanks, Peter. Robin Salmon. MS. SALMON: This is Robin Salmon. Thank you, Mary. No. 1, silver, is also my favorite for all the reasons that have been stated. really like No. 6. And I also did I thought that that design was different, and the basis around the perimeter of the obverse were clever. The stitching on the reverse -- that's a nice design. No. 8, 8A, and 9 were -- I wish you could do a medal. I really liked these. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I thought Meeting June 15, 2021 59 that it would do something -- it'd pass Mary's tabletop test. And that's actually starting to become my tabletop test, Mary. I'm going to steal it. MS. LANNIN: Good. That's what I say. MS. SALMON: But there's some really Go ahead. beautiful designs here. But for the silver, I will go with No. 1 unless we have an amendment to that. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thanks, Robin. Sam Gill. MR. GILL: Thank you, Madam Chair. This is Sam Gill. I like Pair No. 1 as well. I would prefer to have, as I said before, the "Negro Leagues Baseball" spelled out. with initials there. But it still gives a reference But it's full of action, and it would look really, really good on a coin. I also liked Pairing No. 4. I loved the batter and the umpire and the catcher, all -- and a ball coming right on by. I loved that action, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 60 thought it was terrific. reverse. HOME!" And I didn't mind the You would take out "WHERE HISTORY TOUCHES And I would put, again, "NEGRO LEAGUES BASEBALL" in place of that. I liked Pair No. 2. picture there. a I liked the So my votes are going to be kind of mixture on these three concepts. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thanks, Sam. Dennis. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. Boy, this is getting complicated. But just looking at these designs as designs, and separating them from what denominations they go with, I would say that Pair No. 1 has my strongest vote. has a lot of vitality. It It's about as explosive an action scene as you can have in baseball. And then flipping the coin from obverse to reverse, you get a story: the batter slams a ball, and it flies into the stands. Something else I also liked about it is that by connecting the batter to the crowd, it www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 61 celebrates both the Negro Leagues players and the immediate audience in the stands, and symbolically the rest of America, which I think satisfies some of the museum's goals. And it puts the coin's viewer in the action, right in the middle of the crowd. It's an unusual perspective, and it makes us part of the story that's being told. That's my favorite design. I have -- I don't know if this is the time to talk about proposals of switching designs amongst -MS. LANNIN: that till later, Dennis. No, we're going to say Okay? MR. TUCKER: We'll save that, okay. I will not comment any further. So Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thanks so much. Lawrence Brown. DR. BROWN: thank you, Madam Chair. This is Lawrence Brown, and And I, too, will make sure to be sensitive to the fantastic job that you have as being chair. I must say that, first and foremost, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 62 let me give my thanks to the artists, Mr. Kendrick, and The National Negro Leagues Baseball Museum. I wanted to thank them all before I commented. Quite frankly, I -- given that I represent the interest of the public, I don't have skill sets and the expertise to really appreciate the comments that Mike made with respect to the obverse for the gold. But I certainly also love Peter's suggestion about how to put this as a set. So, Madam Chair, I would vote for the Silver Obverse No. 1, and give kudos also to Obverse 8 and 9, that pair. So that would be my vote at this time. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Dr. Brown. Donald Scarinci. MR. SCARINCI: is brilliant. Okay. So, listen, No. 1 And if -- there's nothing -- you know, there's nothing else to say. you know, I just love it. I mean, the -- its -- I think if it gets a Joe Menna's gold, it's an award winner. I mean, if it's sculpted right, I mean, I just love it. it's going to be a great coin. And I think It's different; it's www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 63 bold. I can see why Peter, you know, and everybody is -- you know, we're all gravitating to the same coin for the same reason. It's not something we've seen before. So, you know, I don't even need to say anything else or talk about anything else. the one. This is Sometimes it's -- sometimes it's just right. This is one of those times that it's just right. And the other thing I just wanted to say as an aside, Mary, is the ultimate compliment that you have just gotten from Robin Salmon when she told you she likes the -- you know, she likes your test. And, you know, you've only been collecting medals for a short time, and you've got the compliment from the person that it would be the most from. So congratulations, Mary. MS. LANNIN: compliment graciously. Thank you. I take Robin's Thank you so much, Donald. Art Bernstein. MR. BERNSTEIN: Madam Chair, before I go into my comments, I did have a technical question -- two questions related to gender. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I was Meeting June 15, 2021 64 hoping Mi. Hendrick could tell us a little bit about women playing in the league and what percentage of them played, because some of these designs feature a woman. And then my other question was I looked at Reverse 8 and Obverse 9. I was wondering if there are any women in those renderings. I couldn't tell from my printout. MS. LANNIN: Mr. Kendrick, are you on the line? MR. KENDRICK: I am. tell from those designs either. And I couldn't But to answer your question, there were three very pioneering women who played in the Negro Leagues: Toni Stone, Connie Morgan, and Mamie "Peanut" Johnson. Peanut was actually hailed from here in DC, who lived and died here in DC. Which I'm actually in DC today, as I'm on this call with you all. And -- is my birthday, so this is my birthday gift. Thank you all so much. MS. LANNIN: Well, Mr. Kendrick, happy birthday. MR. KENDRICK: Thank you, thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 65 And so, yeah, there was this element of the fact that the Negro Leagues did open its door to women in the latter part of its existence. And then there were also female owners and executives who were part of the Negro Leagues well before Major League Baseball had that. And so that is one aspect that, when we talk about the inclusion aspect of what we do and the equity aspect of what this league represents, that is embodied in that but didn't necessarily look for that in this series of coins. But that certainly is a very pertinent part of the story. MS. STAFFORD: Yes. And this is April. Madam Chair, I'd just like to add that, yes, the artist did include a female in both the obverse and reverse in Silver Pair 9. And there's also another pairing where the reverse depicts a female. So I don't know if it's readily clear to the viewer, but if you look very, very closely, yes, there's a female figure in those designs. MS. LANNIN: Fourth from the left, as far as I can see, I think, in the obverse. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 66 MS. STAFFORD: That's right. Yes, ma'am. MS. LANNIN: Yeah. Arthur, are you finished with your comments, or you would like to make more comments? MR. BERNSTEIN: comment. That was a question. MS. LANNIN: No, that wasn't a And now that -- Okay. MR. BERNSTEIN: -- I've had the answer, my comment would be that I think the inclusion of women in this league is worthy of consideration as we look at some of these designs. So I think some of my votes will go towards the designs that do portray the women players. I also would speak strongly towards Silver Pair 1. of the coin. I love the way the baseball jumps off And there have been some comments about the hands on the reverse. And what I liked about those hands is, to my mind, they are of different sizes. groups. And I think that refers to the various age So you have kids, you have adults; they're all part of this enthusiasm, and I thought that was www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 67 notable. A little bit of a shout out, again, for the Kansas City Monarchs. I've never actually been to Kansas City, but I did like the fact that that was featured on Obverse 3. And Obverse 8 featured the fence. I like that architectural detail, the home run fence and the way each set of words was on one of the fence slats, I thought, was very clever. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Arthur. Mike Moran. MR. MORAN: Thank you, Mary. Mike Moran. I'm with everybody else on No. 1. will go through the strong points. them. I Everybody's heard I do like the concept of the team and the fact that there is a female in there, fourth from left, certainly, and also in the rotation in the wheel. Somehow, I like to see that included somewhere in the package, to show the diversity. And I believe that's all I need to say. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 68 MS. LANNIN: Okay. So now it's up to me, and I just couldn't get past No. 1. this. Thank you so much, Mike. I am in Donald's camp with What an incredible, incredible design. We had lots and lots of good designs in this portfolio, but my eye keeps drifting back. baseball. I want to touch that And then on the reverse, I want to be the one that actually catches it. So this is certainly my tabletop test, and I will be giving a lot of points to No. 1. Okay. Anybody have any more questions about just the silver? Okay. Hearing none, let us go through the clad, please. All right. I'm going to do the same thing again. Why don't I start with Dean Kotlowski. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Chair. Sorry, Mary -- Madam Just a little bit of -- a little bit late here. When I looked at the clad, the tabletop test for me was -- and I'm trying to get the exact number here -- Clad Pair No. 2. I wanted to look www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 69 at -- I thought that this not only passed the tabletop test, but it told the story of the Negro Leagues traveling on buses. You have a batter, you have an athlete there. And I just love all of those logos honoring all those different teams. I'm somebody who loves sports logos, and I love good sports logos. And, you know, just trying to figure out what they all were, I think, is a great way of honoring the Negro Leagues. You know, we're doing a lot of playing around, it seems, or we're testing a lot of ideas as to what works. If there was any support for this coin beyond my passion for it, it almost would work maybe best on the largest canvas, which would be the silver dollar. But I think it works okay on the clad. And my eyes were drawn to this one, and it really was my favorite. So my comments are very brief, and they are geared here. So what I'm weighing right now are four different designs, trying to fit them into three different coins. So I may be going back and forth when we have our discussion at the end. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 70 Thank you very much, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thanks so much, Dean. I have next, how about Tom Uram. MR. URAM: Thank you, Madam Chair. Tom Uram. As I mentioned a little earlier in the clad, I do like No. 3. I think that it adds to the portfolio and has a different dimension than some of the other ones do. So I think it would add in. So I'm going to go with Pairing No. 3 for the clad. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thanks. MR. VAN ALFEN: Peter Van Alfen. Thank you, Madam Chair. This is Peter Van Alfen. I am quite drawn to No. 3 as well. like the action. I I like the symbolism of the hands on the bat on the reverse, and I think it will work well with some of the other designs that we've discussed. I also have to say that I really do quite like No. 6 . I think it's a nice design. But, again, I think that No. 3 would work better with some www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 71 of the other obverse-reverse designs in the other metals. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much. Let me see here. MS. SALMON: Robin? This is Robin Salmon. Thank you, Madam Chair. No. 3 is also my favorite of the group. But I do have to agree with Dean; No. 2 drew my eye immediately. I -- it makes me want to look up all of those teams and find out more about them. I think that it could work on the clad size and not be lost. But it's a very interesting design. And the lettering style is also quite interesting. The obverse, of course, has the batter, the bus, all of the things that go into the history of this particular story. And it's a nice design. No. 3 is the one that I'm really focusing on. But Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thanks so much, Robin. Sam Gill. MR. GILL: Thank you, Madam Chair. This is Sam Gill. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 72 Again, really, really fun designs all the way through, just really, really interesting. I agree with Dean on No. 2. very, very. I love it I my only concern is I think it's a little busy, particularly the reverse. I don't know that those features pop out, but it sure does tell a good story. So I probably wouldn't put all my points on No. 2. I liked No. 3 very much. I see the merit in that, and that will certainly get some votes. And I liked some combination of 5 and 5A and 4. I love the picture and I love the script, again, with "NEGRO LEAGUES BASEBALL" on it. And I thought that some combination of any of these three would be great. So my votes are going to be kind of split on this one. But particularly, they are going to be on 3, and then 4 and 4A and 5. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Sam. Dennis. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. This is Dennis Tucker. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 73 For the clad half-dollar, I actually prefer Silver Pair No. 1. But among these presented portfolio designs for the clad, my eye is drawn to No. 1 because it's so action-packed and it shows a team together. And the other denomination designs that I looked at showed more of, like, pitcher-and-batter action or singular elements rather than a team together like this. My one recommendation would be replacing "WHERE HISTORY TOUCHES HOME" with the words "NEGRO LEAGUES BASEBALL," and that way it's spelled out somewhere on the coin. Otherwise, we don't have those words. I'm going to leave my comments there because otherwise I would have to get into the mixand-match with other coin designs and denominations. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thank you so much, Dennis. Lawrence Brown. DR. BROWN: Lawrence Brown. Madam Chair, this is And I must confess my colleagues have www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 74 made this even more challenging, intriguing, and, my goodness, certainly something difficult. I must confess that I really love Peter's suggestion at the very giddy-up about the combinations, because it seemed to me that it made -take that 1 -- Obverse 1 in Gold, Obverse 1 in Silver, and Obverse 1 in clad to make a collection. That would be memorable. So I must confess I do like Dennis's suggestion about replacing on the Clad No. 1 "WHERE HISTORY TOUCHES HOME," to, in fact, put the "NEGRO LEAGUES BASEBALL." So I still say, Madam Chair, that I still, in fact, would say for the clad -- and I know that we're going to be talking about combinations, so when you talk about tabletop, I think this is going to be more like marbles, that we're going to be trading marbles about which, in fact, goes together best -but I would stick with my suggestion of Clad No. 1 and No. 3. Those would be my two tops. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Dr. Brown. Donald Scarinci. Donald, are you www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 75 around? MR. VAN ALFEN: Mary, he doesn't seem to be in his chair at the moment. MS. LANNIN: noticing that. All righty. Thank you for Why don't we go back to him, and I'll do Art Bernstein next. MR. BERNSTEIN: Hi. This is Art Bernstein. When I look at Clad Pairing 1, I love the obverse with the ball that is flying across the coin. It just draws my eye to that baseball. not attracted to the reverse on that pairing. I was I don't know if this is a common technique, but having two of the players partially cut off, to me, looked -- I know it's not a mistake, but it looked like a mistake to me, that those two guys didn't quite get in the picture. But I did like the obverse on Pair 1. On Pair 2, I was glad to hear other people were attracted to those logos. My first thought also was that it was busy, but some of those are just so cool. I'm really curious about those three Bs and that -- each of those designs. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I notice Meeting June 15, 2021 76 on the obverse there was the inclusion of the transport, which we didn't see on any other designs. So I'm intrigued by Pair 2, and that's certainly going to get some of my votes. Like most of the others, I also like Pair 3 and the fact that the phrasing "THEY WENT TO BAT FOR CHANGE" ties right in with the bat. just thought that was a great combination. MS. LANNIN: And I Thank you. Thanks, Art. Mike Moran. MR. MORAN: I hate that mute button. You're playing with that thing, and everybody's wondering, what, is he asleep? No. And this is Mike Moran. So we've talked about 3. Three's good. I really do like the concept of the hands on the bat. I remember doing that, and the one at the top had to be able to throw it out to second base. And if you couldn't, the other team got the first at bats. But No. 2, I want to talk about it for a second. It's not often in my time here on this Committee that I've seen the culture of an entity -- I www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 77 guess I would call this an entity -- of a band of brothers -- I'll say it that way -- so compactly put on a coin. You've got the player on the obverse with the bus transportation. They probably slept on that bus, too, for what it's worth. And then you flip it over to the back side and you've got the -- I love the fonts, but you've also got the team symbols. those. I've never seen And they're just part of the history. just engrained in it. They're It's part of the life blood of the Negro Baseball Leagues. So I'm going to put my votes on it, knowing that I probably am being overly sentimental to do that. And then we'll go from there. That's it, Mary. MS. LANNIN: Mike. All right, thank you, Thank you. All right. Do we have -- MS. STAFFORD: MS. LANNIN: April Stafford. Madam Chair? -- Kotlowski with us? MS. STAFFORD: Yes? MS. STAFFORD: I'm sorry. This is Since so many Committee members have www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 78 commented on Clad Pair 2, I wonder if just for the record if we could just take a look at that, and I will share the design description, because Mr. Moran is correct. In Clad Pair 2, Obverse 2 depicts the Negro Leagues' tour bus that served as their home on the road when players were refused entry into hotels and restaurants. The batter exemplifies the determination to play the game he loves regardless of challenging circumstances. While Clad Reverse 2 showcases the logos of every team in the Negro Leagues, which is represented with a Monogram that symbolizes the solidarity of the organization and legacy of its teams. Mr. Kendrick, can you confirm that the depiction on Reverse 2 actually does showcase all of the teams in the Baseball Museum, or is it a collection of them? MR. KENDRICK: them. It is a collection of And it was a design that I actually liked. thought the artist was clever in that. I thought it was -- with trying to use as many teams, it made it www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I Meeting June 15, 2021 79 look busy on that reverse side. And so one of the suggestions that I thought when we were going over these designs, when the Leagues were formed in 1920, they were formed with eight teams. And perhaps it could be more cleaner if there is a way to focus just on the eight original teams that started the Negro Leagues, as opposed to trying to put all of those in, which is not all the teams, but, as April mentioned, a collection of teams. That was my initial thought. But I actually -- I really like what the artist was trying to do, other than this concern about the business on the reverse side. The obverse side, I think, is very powerful as well. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you, sir. I appreciate you adding that. MS. LANNIN: Thank you very much, Mr. -Go ahead, April. MS. STAFFORD: No, ma'am. I was just going to say I appreciate the clarification that, indeed, it's not every team; it is just a collection of them. I think that's an important note. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 80 MS. LANNIN: That's great. Is Donald Scarinci with us? MR. VAN ALFEN: His chair still is empty. MS. LANNIN: it's my turn. like No. 3. Okay. So then I guess I, with most of my colleagues, really I think that it reminded me of all baseball players start out with the kids in the neighborhood, you know. thing. And they all do the bat It just reminded me of young, young players that, in going to watch players, that they hope to emulate someday. I liked the action. I like the ball on sort of the nine o'clock hour of the obverse. And I think he's going to make it home safe. I also like No. 3 because I like the -I like the font on this one better than, I think, 3A. So I'm going to put votes on -- definitely on 3. But I like Mr. Kendrick's suggestion that if we take No. 2 and use the logos of the original eight teams and ask the artist to do that, that that actually puts Clad Pair No. 2 into contention. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 81 So those are my thoughts. So now we can have our discussion where we do horse trading. And we'll talk -- MR. WEINMAN: Want to score -- MS. LANNIN: -- I don't know what else MS. LANNIN: I'm sorry. to call it. MR. WEINMAN: What? This is Greg. Do you want to score the designs first and then use that data as you make some recommendations? MS. LANNIN: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I just didn't know if anybody had an impassioned argument before we were ready to score that might make the after-talk a little bit easier. Okay. So we will -MR. WEINMAN: MS. LANNIN: -- scoring -Okay. It is 2:25. I think that this is going to be kind of complicated scoring. So, Greg, is 10 minutes enough, or is that not enough time? MR. WEINMAN: least 15 minutes. -- probably need at But it obviously all -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 82 MS. LANNIN: Okay. MR. WEINMAN: That all depends on how quickly everybody can give me their scores. MS. LANNIN: resume. Okay. It's 2:40. We will Please submit your score sheets to Greg. DR. BROWN: Mary, this is Lawrence Brown. MS. LANNIN: DR. BROWN: different suggestion? Yes, Lawrence. May I give a friendly but Because I think that no matter -- based on the conversation, no matter how we score, that is likely we're going to be doing some horse trading. Because, based on our experience, my colleagues are going to be talking about different combinations. So I would probably like to suggest that we, in fact, take a motion from any of the members to say what combination they think would be more likely. But that's -MS. LANNIN: Lawrence, I think we need to see how everything scores. in that matter. No. 2. I think Greg is correct We might be surprised what comes in Okay? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 83 DR. BROWN: MS. LANNIN: Okay. All right. So if everybody -MR. MORAN: Mary, this is Mike Moran. I second your motion. MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: MS. LANNIN: Thank you. I agree we need to vote. So everybody score, please. MR. WEINMAN: We'll try and make this as efficient as possible. (Off the record.) MR. WEINMAN: By the way, I have actually been to the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum in Kansas City, and it is truly amazing and well worth the visit. With that in mind, yes, I have scores for you. Let's start with the gold. MS. WARREN: is Jen. Wait a minute, Greg. This Could everyone who is not talking mute their mic, 'cause there is back wash and I don't know if the transcriber can hear you. Thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 84 MR. WEINMAN: Can everybody hear me? If so, let me -- it's a little tricky. second. Gold: No. 2 has two points. No. 4 has seven points. Pair No. 1 has 21 No. 3 has five points. No. 5 has 24 points, making it the high vote getter, but not by much. five points. read this. sorry. No. 7 has -- pardon me. Sorry. Yes, No. 6 has five. No. 9A has 10 points. has three points. three points. Sorry. Sorry. And No. 9 has three points. No. 10 has four points. 11 has three points. And 12 has Reverse No. 1 Reverse No. 3 has eight. Reverse No. 5 has 18. Reverse No. 7 has two. Reverse 8 has four. has seven. 10A Those are the obverses. has 24 points, making it the high score. has seven. Yeah, No. 7 has three. For the gold reverse: 2 has five. No. 6 has It's hard to One quick second. No. 8 has seven points. two. One Sorry. Okay, ready? points. Hold on. Reverse No. Reverse No. 4 Reverse No. 6 has Reverse No. 7A has two. Reverse 9 has six. Reverse 10 And reverse 10A has three. Moving on to silver. One moment. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 85 Okay. Silver Obverse No. 1 has 33 points, a perfect score. nine. No. 2 has five. No. 5 has four. three. No. 3 has eight. No. 6 has five. No. 8 has three. No. 4 has No. 7 has No. 8A has eight. six. No. 10 has two. No. 10A has two. two. No. 12 has three. No. 9 has No. 11 has Moving on to the silver reverses. Reverse No. 1 has 33 points, a perfect score. No. 2 has six. No. 3 has four. No. 5 has four. six. No. 4 has three. No. 6 has eight. No. 6B has four. No. 6 down A has And No. 8 has five. Moving on to the clad. Okay. 15. Obverses: One moment. No. Obverse 1 has 11. Obverse 2 has Obverse 3 has 17, making it the high vote getter but obviously not by much. two. No. 4A has two. one. No. 9 has one. No. 3A has six. No. 6 has three. Reverses in clad: nine. Reverse No. 2 has 15. has two. No. 5A has two. No. 4 has No. 6A has Reverse No. 1 has Reverse No. 3 has 17, making it the high vote getter. one. Reverse No. 4 has one. No. 6 has five. And No. 8 has one. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 No. 5 No. 7 has Meeting June 15, 2021 86 And those are the scores. MS. WARREN: Mary, this is Jennifer. I just want to make a public service announcement before we move forward. For particularly Mint employees in regards to the audio and video issues with Webex today, there probably will be an issue tomorrow as well. There are a couple of ways to work around it. First of all, you can dial into the bridge line like you're doing today. personal computer. You can use a Or if you are not working at a Mint location, you can turn the VPN off of your computer, and it should work. Our understanding is everyone else can verbally see each other and hear each other through the computer and everyone can see the designs. So I just want to bring that up. And for anyone who has a liaison or something, in case they run into problems in the morning, or anybody that's a CCAC member, if you start having a problem, remember to call in to the break line. to send that out. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 So just wanted Meeting June 15, 2021 87 MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Jennifer. All right, ladies and gentlemen, let the horse trading begin. In the interest of keeping this as clean as possible for the transcriber and eventually for me who's going to have to write all this up, I would like to ask somebody who's very strongly opinionated about -- Mike Moran, who started the ball rolling. And, gee, what an example; right? If Mike Moran could begin by giving us his thoughts and making a motion, then we can react to that and I can call on everybody else as necessary. MR. MORAN: lamb, Mary. I guess I'm the sacrificial This is Mike Moran. MS. LANNIN: You're it. The designated hitter. MR. MORAN: The designated hitter. Let's leave the silver dollar alone. what they've got. It's 33. Everybody likes Don't mess with it. The votes were more split on the clad. And while I like both of those designs, I think that's where we need to put Gold Obverse and Reverse No. 1. I also want to respect the pairings that these artists www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 88 have done ; therefore, I would not want to pair Gold Obverse 5, which had the highest vote on the gold coin, with Gold Reverse 1. So I would propose to move that we accept Gold Obverse and Reverse -- or Gold Pair 5 for the gold coin and we use Gold Pair 1 for the clad coin, and that we accept the votes on the Silver Pair 1 for the silver dollar. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Be prepared to recite that again. MR. URAM: I'll second that, Mike. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Does anyone want to make a friendly motion? Dennis, did you have something to say? MR. VAN ALFEN: Alfen. This is Peter Van My motion is a little complicated. I think that maybe we should just start with some simpler motions, maybe one of which is just to respect the pairings -- obverse/reverse, but just to respect pairings to begin with. MS. LANNIN: Who wants to second Peter's motion? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 89 MR. TUCKER: Peter, this is Dennis. can -- I like that idea for two of the coins. don't like it for another one. can't I I So that's why I wholeheartedly support that. MS. LANNIN: Who -- I'm sorry, was that Dr. Brown? DR. BROWN: Yes, Madam Chair. I'm sorry, Dennis. If you want to complete your thought. MR. TUCKER: You can proceed. Thank you. Thanks. DR. BROWN: Madam Chair. That was all. This is Lawrence Brown, So I really think that we really need to vote on the motion that was seconded before we can go to a new motion. MR. VAN ALFEN: I'm sorry. I didn't realize that Mike's had been seconded. MS. LANNIN: second it. I didn't hear somebody Maybe it's my -- I believe Tom seconded it. DR. KOTLOWSKI: MS. LANNIN: Tom Uram did. Wait, wait, wait. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 You Meeting June 15, 2021 90 guys, you can't just jump in. Please tell me who seconded Mike's original motion. MR. URAM: Tom Uram, second. MS. LANNIN: Tom Uram second, okay. DR. KOTLOWSKI: I'm sorry. seconded. Mary, this is Dean. I was the one who jumped in and said Tom I think it's a good idea. hear it one more time. I'd like to just I think what Mike is proposing is For the clad -Is it gold, Mike? Is it Gold Obverse 1 and Gold Reverse 1 are going to be the clad coin; am I correct? MR. MORAN: Yes. Yes, that's correct, Dean. DR. KOTLOWSKI: I find that very sensible. So we're not going to do any mixing and matching. The silver dollar is set, which is No. 1. And then the clad is going to be gold. And then the gold coin is actually going to be Pair 5; right? MR. MORAN: Yes. DR. KOTLOWSKI: MR. MORAN: Okay. That's the motion that's www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 91 been seconded. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Repeat the motion slowly for Natalie to get it down. MR. MORAN: Okay. I move that we use Gold Pair 1 Obverse and Reverse as the design for the clad coin; I move that we accept the Committee's vote on the silver as Silver Pair 1; and that we use Gold Pair 5 Obverse and Reverse for the gold coin design. MS. LANNIN: Tom, you still second that? MR. URAM: Yes, Madam. MS. LANNIN: Okay. All in favor of Mike's motion say aye. MULTIPLE VOICES: MS. LANNIN: Aye. Do we have any nays? Seems like the motion passed unanimously. Am I correct MR. MORAN: Mary, I know you don't drink, but you owe me a glass of wine for that one. MS. LANNIN: That's wonderful. it. I know. I know. You got us on time. I know. I appreciate And I think that we came up with a really great www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 92 birthday present for Mr. Kendrick. MR. MORAN: Sure. MS. LANNIN: Mr. Kendrick, are you happy with what we did? MR. KENDRICK: Yeah. And I just had one quick question -- put Design -- 'cause I kind of got a little lost -- so Design 5 that is currently in gold is going to now be clad? MS. LANNIN: Design 5 of the Gold is -- virtual connectivity interruption -- the silver, which is your big birthday present, because we never ever give 33 points to anything -- the silver stays the silver. And the clad becomes what would have been Gold No. 1. MR. KENDRICK: Okay. So the one that I'm looking at now is clad? MS. LANNIN: That's -- no. The one that you're looking at right now is the gold design. MR. KENDRICK: Okay, that will become the gold design. MS. LANNIN: That's the gold design. Roger, can you get us to the silver www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 93 design so Mr. Kendrick can see them all? This is your 33-point silver design, which is fabulous. And now we're going to show you what the clad looks like. That's your clad. MR. KENDRICK: Okay. Okay. MS. LANNIN: All right? MR. TUCKER: Madam Chair -- virtual connectivity interruption -- I think we should discuss how the denomination is treated. MS. LANNIN: Dennis, you need to say your name first, please. MR. TUCKER: Oh, I did. MS. LANNIN: Oh, I -- we broke up. MR. TUCKER: This is Dennis Tucker. Okay. I think we should have some discussion with Ron and Joe about how the denomination will be fitted into the Gold Pair 1 which is now a half-dollar instead of a five-dollar gold piece. MS. LANNIN: MR. MENNA: MS. LANNIN: Okay. This is Joe -Anybody else have any www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 94 comments? MR. MENNA: Oh, I'm sorry. MR. TUCKER: Yeah, this is Dennis, and I was just going to say maybe it's easy, maybe it's, you know, quite simple and not -- you know, doesn't need a lot of discussion. it'd be a challenge. But to me, it looks like So I'll let you speak on that. MS. LANNIN: I'm not sure why you say it's a challenge. MR. TUCKER: Well, we currently have two characters, "dollar sign 5," and we're going to expand that to two words, "HALF DOLLAR"; right? MS. LANNIN: We could move "THEIR LEGACY PLAYS ON." Ron or Joe, we could move "THEIR LEGACY PLAYS ON"? MR. MENNA: This is Joe. Yeah. I mean, I -- I -- I'll keep my two cents out of it as to what I thought this would be a great design for. But I think if you take -- if you scoot "THEIR LEGACY PLAYS ON" closer to the figure, you know, not so close that it would cause a "coinability" problem, then you www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 95 could fit with a font the same size as "E PLURIBUS UNUM" you could fit "HALF DOLLAR" arcing underneath "THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" text, and I'll you'll be fine. MS. LANNIN: MR. MENNA: Okay. And then "FIVE DOLLARS" just becomes negative space. MS. STAFFORD: MR. MENNA: Right. It would be easy. MR. TUCKER: Thanks. MS. LANNIN: Thanks. MS. LANNIN: Yes, April. So should we just -- MS. STAFFORD: This is April Stafford. I just wanted to ask -- not that I think it's an issue, but I wanted to note: Each one of the pairings that you have identified contains the inscription "NEGRO LEAGUES BASEBALL" with the exception of Silver Pair 1. I didn't know if that was an issue. It does have the abbreviation for the museum, but I just wanted to point that out, in case Mr. Kendrick had a thought on that or the Committee had a concern. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 96 MS. LANNIN: mentioning that, April. Thanks so much for Actually, I really kind of like the initials on the pennant. It kind of gives -- to me, it's part of the joyousness of sitting outside on a sunny day and watching your team win. Mr. Kendrick, is that design all right with you? MR. KENDRICK: understand. Yeah. And I certainly I'm glad April raised the point. Obviously, NLBM is the acronym for Negro Leagues Baseball Museum, where the other coins obviously look at the general live history. You know, so that's really the only thing that I see, and I don't know if it hurts the series or not. I don't think it does. It does give a nod to the museum itself, which I do kind of like. MS. LANNIN: MR. KENDRICK: MS. LANNIN: together. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And it's marketed So. MR. KENDRICK: MS. LANNIN: Exactly. Okay. Exactly. Lawrence is giving www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 97 me the thumbs-up, so he likes it. DR. BROWN: I think that the solution is market them all together. MR. KENDRICK: you're right. I think that makes -Yeah. No, I think I mean, in the end, our goal is to hope to try to sell these as collections, you know, even more so than individuals. But I'm sure that, yeah. And now -- I think that when we were looking at this and looking at the great work the artists did, we were thinking about how we could put together a great set of coins that people would not want to break up the set. And I think we hopefully have accomplished that. MS. LANNIN: Well, I think you did. And, Mr. Kendrick, I've been on the Committee for seven years, and I can only think of two other instances of 33. You got a perfect score on your birthday. MR. KENDRICK: Okay. Thank you. Well, I believe we are finished with our first commemorative set of coins. Thank you very much for spending all day with us. MR. KENDRICK: Guys, it's been my www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 98 pleasure. And thanks to each and every one of you for your dedication, for your thought, your insight, and your consideration to our program. it's been a blast. And, you know, I've learned a lot. And once again, I want to tip my cap to all of the artists who were involved, and the incredible team that I had a chance to work with as we've moved to this point, this stage of the process. So thank you to all of you. And, you know, I'm looking forward to how we continue this and get prepared to roll this out next year. MS. LANNIN: Thanks so much, Mr. Kendrick. MR. KENDRICK: MS. LANNIN: Okay. I lost my place. My pleasure. Bye-bye. We have scored this wonderful -- All right, we move to our second session of the day, which is the Merrill's Marauders Congressional Gold Coin. And -- UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Congressional Gold Medal. MS. LANNIN: Sorry. Congressional Gold Medal. I'm missing pages here. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 99 And, April, if you would like to begin, introduce our guests. MS. STAFFORD: All right. And if it's okay, I'll give some background first on the program. MS. LANNIN: MS. STAFFORD: Sure. Public Law 116-170, the Merrill's Marauders Congressional Gold Medal Act, directs the Secretary of the Treasury to strike a single gold medal with suitable emblems, devices, and inscriptions to honor soldiers of the 5307th Composite Unit (Provisional), also known as Merrill's Marauders, in recognition of their bravery and outstanding service in the jungles of Burma during World War II. The 5307th Composite Unit Provisional, CUP, known as Merrill's -- known as Merrill's Marauders significantly advanced -Merrill's Marauders significantly advanced the Allied Forces' effort to defeat Japan during World War II. Their success in the China Burma India -Madam Chair, do you want me to go ahead and continue, or wait a minute while people get www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 100 settled? MS. LANNIN: -- we don't have anybody joining us, but I would like you to continue, April. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Merrill's Marauders significantly advanced the Allied Forces' effort to defeat Japan during World War II. Their success in the China Burma India (CBI) during 1944 MS. LANNIN: I'm sorry. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Everybody mute their phone. MS. LANNIN: -- altered the course of the war in Asia. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: mute mic right now. Somebody -- everyone In your Webex. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Okay, April. I think UNKNOWN SPEAKER: No UNKNOWN SPEAKER: We're not. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Everybody please mute we're okay now. your phone and your Webex. MS. STAFFORD: again. Okay. We'll try this I beg our liaisons' patience with us. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 We Meeting June 15, 2021 101 don't typically have this many technical issues with our system. So I am sorry about that. Let me read that last paragraph. Merrill's Marauders significantly advanced the Allied Forces' effort to defeat Japan during World War II. Burma After success in the China India Theater during 1944 altered the course of the war in Asia. The unit was the brainchild of President Franklin D. Roosevelt and British Prime Minister Winston Churchill. At the 1943 Quebec Conference, they created an, quote/unquote "expendable," three-battalion, guerrilla force of American volunteers assigned to British command to fight behind enemy lines in Burma. Approximately 3,000 infantry men answered Roosevelt's call for the "dangerous and hazardous" mission, not knowing their destination or objective. The men who fought as part of Merrill's Marauders volunteered from many ethnic backgrounds and included a Native American code talker and 14 Nisei interpreters. Travelling with only what they could www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 102 carry on their backs or on pack mules, they made military history by walking almost 1,000 miles, farther than any other WWII fighting force. They saw more uninterrupted jungle fighting than any World War II military unit except the 1st Marine division at Guadalcanal. They were kept alive by C-47 airdrops of ammunition, food, medical supplies, and grains for the mules. In fighting the enemy, the Merrill's Marauders also battled the terrain, the weather, their mules, and disease. Many men were tagged "AOE," meaning they suffered from an "accumulation of everything." By the time the Marauders seized their final objective, the all-weather airfield at Myitkyina, the majority of the soldiers had been evacuated. Of the remaining 1,310 men, only about 200 were deemed "walking wounded" and returned to the battle to hold the airfield. During their campaign, the Marauders never lost a battle or engagement against the Japanese. For their bravery, every member of the Merrill's Marauders was awarded the Bronze Star and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 103 the Presidential Unit Citation. In developing this portfolio of candidate designs, the Mint worked closely with a group of liaisons that included Gilbert Howland and Robert Passanisi, two surviving Marauders, to identify appropriate concepts and ensure historical accuracy and appropriateness. On the phone with us today are liaisons Robert Howland, John Passanisi, and Travis West, who is President of the US Army Ranger Association. Mr. Howland and Mr. Passanisi represented their fathers, both of whom are surviving Marauders: Gilbert Howland and Robert Passanisi. So let's first start with you, Mr. Howland. Would you like to introduce your father? MR. HOWLAND: Can you hear me? MS. STAFFORD: MR. HOWLAND: Yes, sir. Can you hear me? Yes? You can hear me, okay, great. Yes, my dad, Gilbert Howland, served in the Army for 30 years, from 1941 to 1971. He voluntarily entered the Army before Pearl Harbor, and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 104 he was in Panama and -- where he received jungle training, and then ended up in Trinidad for more jungle training, and then went on to Puerto Rico on the way back to the United States, when somebody showed up from the Department of Defense and was looking for volunteers. And 125 men, of which he was one, volunteered from his 33rd Regiment. And then he went on with them to India and then, finally, to Burma. He was a member of the 2nd Battalion Green Combat Team. He was a machine guns section leader with two squads, 16 men. After the war, he went on to be on the Morgan Line in Italy, keeping the Yugoslavians out of Trieste until they figured out who would get what part of Italy. He then went on and fought in Korea. He was in the Pork Chop Hill section. And he did to combat tours in Vietnam from 1966 to 1969, before he retired on December 31, 1971. He has, obviously, three Combat Infantry Badges; he's a member of the Ranger Hall of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 105 Fame; and he's with us and one of seven surviving Marauders. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you so much, Mr. Howland. And Mr. Passanisi, would you like to introduce your father? MR. PASSANISI: MS. STAFFORD: Can you hear me? Yes, sir. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: MR. PASSANISI: Passanisi. Yes. Okay. My name is John I'm the son of Robert Passanisi. My dad volunteered for the United States Army at the age of 17. He was in a single company getting -- being prepared to go overseas into Europe when the call came down for volunteers to a dangerous and hazardous mission. He volunteered, and he was the only person from his unit that did so. He moved to the West Coast where they were put on a ship -- lower line, and they picked up the parts of the unit from the South Pacific and went on to India where they did the training. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 106 Dad was with the 1st Battalion (not audible). He was a radio specialist, radio repair specialist, from the Signal Corps. war, And after the he went and got his GED and went on to earn a master's degree in electronic engineering. is also a And he member of the Ranger Hall of Fame in the MS. STAFFORD: 25th Class. Thank you so much, Mr. Passanisi. We should also have with us, I believe, Travis West, president of the US Army Ranger Association. West? Mister West, are you with this? Mister You might be a mute. Okay. I don't believe Mr. West has had an opportunity to join us as yet. So, Madam Chair, I can go through the obverse and reverse designs, if you'd like. Madam Chair? MS. LANNIN: I'm sorry. Mr. West is with us now. MS. STAFFORD: Oh, okay. Mr. West, would you like to say a few words? MS. LANNIN: He may be muted for some reason. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 107 April, why don't you go through the designs, and then we can talk to Mr. West after we've gone through the designs? MS. STAFFORD: Yes. Great idea. And -MR. WEST: a microphone issue. April -- I apologize. I had Are you able to hear me now? MS. STAFFORD: MS. LANNIN: MR. WEST: Yes, sir. Yes, we are, Mr. West. And I think that you were just asking April to go through the designs. Would you like her to do that, or would you like me to do a quick introduction? MS. LANNIN: You can do a quick introduction. MR. WEST: Okay. I apologize for the technical difficulties on my end. My name is Travis West. I am the current president of the US Army Ranger Association. I was recently reelected to that position in July of last year. I previously served in this position from 2014 to 2018. I think when you add it all up, I am www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 108 the longest-serving president of the Association since it was first formed in 1973. On the personal side, I had service in the 75th Ranger Regiment from 2001 to 2004. The US Army Ranger Association is the oldest continuously existing organization dedicated to the -- to rangers from all eras and all conflicts. We were founded in 1973 by a group of World War II rangers in association with the folks that were -- ranger training camp right at Eglin Airbase in Florida. We are also a voting member of the Ranger Hall of Fame, and I am very proud for the role that we played in helping to get not just the two Merrill's Marauders whose sons are present with us here today into the Hall, but also several other members of the unit over the years. The -- the Ranger Association was asked to be involved in this case is that we are an organization that represents the interest of those people who've graduated from the Ranger School, which is currently operated by the Airborne and Ranger Training Brigade, as well as people who have earned www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 109 the right to call themselves a Ranger by virtue of their service in the 75th Ranger Regiment. Many of the techniques and tactics that are still taught at the Airborne and Ranger Training Brigade today come from the techniques that were developed by the Merrill's Marauders during World War II. There is a direct tie-into the lineage there. And then on a more formal basis, the US department of heraldry within the Pentagon -- or -excuse me -- the Institute of Heraldry within the Pentagon recognizes that the Merrill's Marauders are part of the lineage of the 75th Ranger Regiment. And so they are revered and respected by both groups of rangers that are currently serving with the United States Army today. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much, Mr. West. April, would you like to begin talking about the designs, please. MS. STAFFORD: Yes, ma'am. If it's acceptable to you, shall I use the same approach where I move through the portfolio and pause at the designs, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 110 reading the descriptions for the identified preferences of our liaisons? MS. LANNIN: Yes, please. That would be great. MS. STAFFORD: All right. to start with the obverse designs. We are going And I should note, although, of course, our Committee understands, that this is a medal. And so many times obverses will be used as reverses and vice versa. So we'll start with the obverse designs. We have Obverse 1, 2, 2B, 2C, 3, 4, 5A, 5B, and 5C. Let me talk a little bit about Obverse 5C, as this is the preferred reverse design. Let me first read the description. Five-C depicts the Merrill's Marauders' patch positioned just below a Bronze Star, an award every member of the unit received for their bravery. The Burmese mountains and jungle appear in the background. The Marauders' five key battles circumscribe the rim of the design. The design also includes the inscriptions "BEHIND ENEMY LINES" and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 111 "ACT OF CONGRESS" as well as the Combat Infantry Badge. Although 5C -- sorry -- does not include the inscription "BEHIND ENEMY LINES." It's solely the Combat Infantry Badge, which can be seen at the bottom of the design there. The liaisons do differ, I believe, on whether to include an image of the C-47 Skytrain supply plane and parachutes in the space surrounding the patch in the center of the design. This was a modification that some of our liaisons requested, and we checked with our chief engraver. He indicated that this design could accommodate those additions. But I believe that there are also part of our liaisons that -- representatives from our liaisons that don't necessarily feel that this is a necessary adjustment. So can I first ask, Mr. Howland, would you like to comment on the potential inclusion of this? MR. HOWLAND: Yes. So my -- if you look at the history of the Marauders campaign, the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 112 reason why they were able to operate deep behind enemy lines was because every 3 to 5 days, approximately, they were resupplied from the air with all their necessities -- food, ammo, green for the mules -- as they moved behind enemy lines for four continuous months. So number one is there is no way the mission could have succeeded without those airdrops. Also, members of Merrill's Marauders were part of the air crews kicking those supplies out. Secondly, at the key battle of Nhpum Ga in which the Second Battalion was surrounded for approximately 12 days by the Japanese, they were resupplied from the air by these same C-47s, basically, within a 200- to 400-yard area, they were dropping supplies to them so they could fight off the Japanese. My dad was in the 2nd Battalion, in that battle, was wounded, and basically says they would not have survived without those airdrops, nor would the mission have succeeded without those airdrops. So he feels strongly that that's something that should be represented somewhere on the medal. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 113 MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Thank you. And Mr. Howland, would you like to share your perspective? MS. LANNIN: That was Mr. Howland. MS. STAFFORD: Mr. Passanisi. I'm sorry. Apologies. MR. PASSANISI: No problem. My dad's position and my also is that we feel, although we respect Gil Howland's opinion, we feel that the airplanes and the dropping supplies were a support part of the mission, and there were other support parts of the mission that are not being represented, of the medical people that were there, the Piper Cub type airplanes they came in and evacuated the severely-wounded soldiers. There are other things that we feel, the support issues, are just as important to the success of the mission. We looked at it more from the point of view of expressing the entire mission, not to highlight any of the individual support areas, but highlight and express the entire mission. Bob and I and our fathers, I think, pretty much have agreed -- and Bob can confirm it with www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 114 me -- that we respectfully disagree on this, but we are willing to let the designers and the engravers make the final decision on it because we could not come to a conclusion between us. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Well, I think you mean the Committee, the Federal Advisory Committee's -- their recommendations on it. Yes, sir. And I think the Committee stands ready to weigh in on it. But first, you know -- the advantage of having multiple liaisons that we are required to work with -- we also have Mr. West. So, Mr. West, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you to also weigh in on this question. MR. WEST: Sure. opportunity to have a say. I appreciate the The -- my position and the Association's position has been that -- our goal all along is to make sure that we end up with a final production that the guys who were on the ground back during the mission would be proud of and be excited to receive. of put And it's unfortunate that we're sort in this position to weigh in when there's a difference www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 115 of opinion between both of them. I certainly respect the Howlands' position and the Passanisis' positions. They -- both of those gentlemen are legends, in my view. When I think about this, if asked to weigh in, we would probably favor including the C-47s. I do appreciate what John is saying in that it does sort of highlight one aspect of the support mission over -- potentially over some others that may not have been as prominent. The flipside of that, though, is I see it in a similar light to another famous battle from my day, which was the Battle of Mogadishu, which has now become known as Black Hawk Down. It was the Rangers and it was the Delta guys on the ground that were really involved in that mission. But were it not for the Black Hawks that were involved -- that has sort of become, you know, one of the symbols that is associated with a mission, even though it wasn't the primary focus of what was going on that day. And I think that, as somebody who wasn't there all those years ago and when I think about the work that those www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 116 men did in the jungles in Burma, from an outsider's perspective, you know, it's hard to separate it from the airdrops that were going on at the same time. So we would be in favor of including them, again, if forced to take a position on it. I do regret having to kind of be a tiebreaker here, but that's kind of where we come down. MS. STAFFORD: Oh. Well, and I hope you don't feel like we put you in a difficult position. I will share, Mr. West, that this is actually not an uncommon thing. Just the question of how far do we go with including elements that might be representative of any single subject matter, our liaisons, whether there's a single one or a group of liaisons, they often have to wrestle with that. So, really, we're very lucky in this case to have multiple liaisons that we were asked to work with, because all of these disparate perspectives will -- to build a picture that this Committee can use in making their recommendation. So I will pause there and, if it's okay, Madam Chair, and ask if any CCAC members have any questions about this particular item for any of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 117 our liaisons before moving on to the remaining portfolio? MS. LANNIN: Does anyone have any questions? DR. BROWN: This is Lawrence Brown. MR. MORAN: Mary, this is Mike Moran. MS. LANNIN: Please wait. Lawrence beat you, Michael. MR. MORAN: Okay. Lawrence, you got did. MS. LANNIN: DR. BROWN: -- Dr. Brown. Yes, I was wondering if Mr. West at some point would say something to the Committee that gives us -- distinction between the special units of rangers, the fact that Green Berets, I think, came after, and the Navy SEALs. that I think helps the the public to really appreciate the specialty of this force at this time of history. MS. LANNIN: MR. WEST: Thank you. Happy to do so. MS. LANNIN: MR. WEST: Great idea. Go ahead, Mr. West. So in World War II, there www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 118 were two groups that were -- two groups that are now considered to be part of the Ranger lineage that fought. You had 1st through 5th Battalions that operated in the European theater, and then you had 6th Battalion and the Merrill's Marauders that operated in the Pacific theater. Rangers were, and to a certain extent are, considered to be sort of a super form of credentials, at the end of the day. They are all infantrymen -- or they're mostly infantrymen to begin with , and then they are given additional training that goes above and beyond what the average infantrymen does. The Green Berets were formed later. If my memory serves, they came around in 1962 to '63. The -- is a little bit different. Whereas rangers historically, you know, going back to French and Indian War are unconventional warfare troops that are intended to range, meaning to walk on foot for long distances out to beyond the front lines or what are thought to be the front lines of whatever the conflict is. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 119 Green Berets were developed with a less-direct action mindset or mission set. Their intent was to also engage in guerrilla warfare but more with the intent of working with the indigenous population to develop forces that could then be used to combat whoever the bad guys were in that particular conflict. A great example of that is in the Vietnam conflict, the Green Berets worked with and develop to military forces and militias that would then be used to fight against the Viet Cong. Very similarly in my day and age, the Green Berets worked with Afghanis to form militias that we used to fight against the Taliban and against Al Qaeda elements that were in Afghanistan. The Green Berets did not exist during World War II, and so there is a little bit of a disconnect. II. The Navy SEALs did exist during World War They had much more of a waterborne focus during much of the conflict in World War II. They were primarily used, although not exclusively, for the purpose of scouting out beaches www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 120 so that when other forces would come on afterwards, they would know where to land and where to drive the tanks up onto the beaches and things of that nature, what sort of obstacles that they would have to deal with coming up at the other end. Other types of special forces units that currently exist, including the Air Force PJs, the Air Force Combat Controllers, Delta Force, and units of that nature, most of them did not come about until much later into the '70s -- virtual connectivity interruption -- them were developed coming out of Operation Eagle Claw, which was the failed mission going into Iran, when the United States Government realized that, one, we needed to have units that had greater specialization in certain areas and, two, we needed to have a mechanism by which those units would communicate with each other better in order to avoid the tragedies that we had during that particular operation. So looking at the -- that's sort of the lay of the land when it comes from a very -- level when it comes to the special operations forces that we www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 121 have. If you look at why the rangers in particular are probably most closely affiliated with the Marauders, frankly, they were the primary special operations unit that existed at that time. And they have continuously existed throughout history because the United States Government, prior to -- would often disband their unit whenever they were -- they would create them when they were needed, and then they would disband them afterwards. And, in fact, they continued to do that following World War II up until the early '70s. And so -- but the rangers have been around for the longest out of all those units. And their mission set is probably mostly associated with what the Marauders did in World War II. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much. MS. STAFFORD: MR. WEST: Thank you so much. Sure. MS. LANNIN: April, would -- he had a question, Michael Moran. MS. STAFFORD: MR. MORAN: Okay. Yes, do I. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Yes. For the Meeting June 15, 2021 122 sponsors, in looking at your choices for the reverse, when are 5C and 6 of the obverse designs, I'm struck by the fact that No. 7 appears to address some of your concerns about what you'd like to see on the reverse, and I would like to know what objections you had with No. 7 when you chose either 6 or 5C as your preference? MS. STAFFORD: Mr. Moran, I just want to confirm that I had mentioned to you earlier that on an initial review, Obverse 6 received some favorable responses -MR. MORAN: Okay. MS. STAFFORD: not a formal preference. -- but ultimately it was It is Obverse 5C that the liaisons have all agreed on would make the best reverse design. MR. MORAN: Okay. let's focus on 5C and 7 then. Well, can I ask -- You certainly -- you get the C-47 and the airdrop in 7, but you lose some elements, design elements, that we have that are prominent in 5C. And -- MS. LANNIN: Mike, let's let everybody www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 123 else weigh in. Okay. And let's let -- MR. MORAN: Okay. MS. LANNIN: what she's doing here. Well -- And let's let April finish Thank you. MS. STAFFORD: And, actually, if it's okay with our liaisons, I'll take a stab at answering Mr. Moran's question, and then I'm sure that we'll circle back around to it. But you're right, Mr. Moran, there are several significant elements in 5C that are not represented on 7 that makes 7 -- make it not a preference. Was very important, that I've learned from our liaisons, is to include the campaign, which is the around the rim, again, the Combat Infantry Badge as well as the Bronze Star are also really important. I mean, each of these elements, the full name of the theater "CHINA BURMA INDIA THEATER" are all working in 5C to build that more complete picture. I do know that our chief engraver, we shared the idea of adding in a plane and parachute, even however small or as a silhouette, to answer some of our liaisons' requests. We wanted to even know if www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 124 it was possible. So if it's okay, may I ask our chief engraver Joe Menna to weigh in on this? And what he might suggest for 5C, how is the composition might need to be adjusted? MR. MENNA: speaking. Hey, April. Joseph Menna In between the word "CHINA" and the shield and between the word "THEATER" and the shield, that's where I'd put the request -- virtual connectivity interruption -- down. Possibly, you could even have them coming from, like, behind, if you want. But, you know, I wouldn't do anything that would sacrifice the organization of the -- I think the September-August text -- a really good horizontal with the wavy line of the mountains and also just helps -- virtual connectivity interruption -And the Arc of the "CHINA BURMA INDIA THEATER" also, I think, needs to stay there just for structural reasons. sure. We could accommodate that, for Thanks. MS. STAFFORD: All righty. sum -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Just to Meeting June 15, 2021 125 MS. LANNIN: April, would you like to continue? MS. STAFFORD: Yes, ma'am. And just to sum up, 5C is the preferred reverse, and it sounds like three of our five liaisons agree that the inclusion of the plane and the supply drops would be there preference. So I'll move on to Obverse 6, Obverse 7, and Obverse 8. Moving on to the reverse designs. We have Reverse 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9A, 9B, 9C, 9D, 10, and Reverse 11. Reverse 11 displays a group of Merrill's Marauders crossing a river in Burma, with the foreground muleskinner leading a pack mule. This design is the preferred obverse design, and the liaisons all agree on including "5307TH COMPOSITE UNIT PROVISIONAL," which is the group's official designation, perhaps parked under "MERRILL'S MARAUDERS." And Madam Chair, that concludes the candidate designs. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much, April. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 126 This is sort of a mixed-up day. Mr. Howland and Mr. Passanisi and Mr. West, it's been a challenging day technologically. So we're going to try and do the best we can here. I would like to pick on Tom Uram to begin, please. MR. URAM: Thank you, Madam Chair. Tom Uram here. Robert, John, Travis, thank you for being with us. And, Robert and John, thank you for the service of your fathers and so forth in regards to this mission and so forth. I think April mentioned that we have had the situation before when we do have stakeholders and different expectations, different thoughts. that's all good. And I will just tell you that you can be assured that after the Committee's discussion and final decision, that you'll have a medal that you can all be proud of, that all those that were involved can be proud of, and one that will exemplify the mission. So as we go through this, I think a lot will be demonstrated regarding the medal and the importance of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 127 the medal. So with that being said, I looked at this portfolio a little bit differently. the artists have some great designs. And I think But I'm kind of -- switch gears here a little bit from my opinion here. I'd like to just look at Reverses 1 and 2. The reason I'm looking at Reverses 1 and 2 is I think that those who would be great obverse is. I do like No. 11 that was chosen. could be an obverse as well. It But I particularly like No. 2 because of the silhouette. And as you know, we have done a medal similar to this in the past and how well it turned out. But the silhouette versus the darker version, the silhouette is like, we were once there. It tells the story that there are souls that are there that were there, and the silhouette of Reverse 2 really says that. So I'm leaning more toward the Obverse being Obverse R-2, being the reverse. And then teaming it up with either your 5C that you like with the additions of what Chief Engraver Menna said could be done. I think Chef Engraver Menna mentioned about www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 128 being able to put the other elements within this medal. I know it doesn't represent all the mission that was brought out. I know that, John, you felt that there were other supports that were available. But at least it'll help tell the story, and more can be told when people have the medal. would know that there were support, though. They We obviously can't recognize them all, but it's a start. If we don't do that on 5C, then I would look at No. 7 that we had talked about. 'Cause 7 was actually my first choice until I heard Chief Engraver Menna mention that we could do that to 5C. So I would concur 5C with the adjustments to the medal. Otherwise, I'm leaning towards Obverse 7 as the reverse. So, Madam Chair -- is Reverse 2 as the obverse and a modified 5C as the reverse. Thank you very much. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much. I know Dr. Brown would like to add a thought. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 129 DR. BROWN: Yes, Madam Chair. This is Lawrence Brown. And, gentlemen, please, in fact, let me note -- let me tell you -- and thank you for the service of yourselves, all your fathers -- as a brother in arms, I served in Vietnam. So that's one of the reasons I asked the question about the specialties forces. And I do understand what it means to win a Bronze Star, so in the interest of full transparency. I, Madam Chair, would like to throw my weight behind, I believe, the requested favorite designs by our sponsors here, and that is, in fact, Obverse 1 and 2A. I also like Obverse 5C and Obverse 8. But I also still like the Reverse of 1, and I love Reverses 10 and 11. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much, Dr. Brown. I'm going to go Chairman's privilege here, because I have chosen designs that I think, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 130 similar to what Tom said, that I'd like the rest of us to think about as we look at all these designs. And I want the liaisons to have time enough to think about what I'm saying. I think as an obverse, either Reverse No. 1 -- virtual connectivity interruption -- Reverse No. 1. Okay. Reverse No. 1 or Reverse No. 2. And so I would like the liaisons to focus on two things: Focus on the mountains in the background and focus on the river behind them. Okay? Now, just think about those two things and understand that Joe Menna can do absolute magic with stuff at the Mint. The reverse, which I think is going to appeal for what we want for airborne, is -- I want for this reverse, I want Obverse 7. here, look what we have again. and look at the water. seamlessly. So Look at the mountains Joe can make that flow The mountains can go from one side of the medal to the other. The river can go from one side of the medal to the other. so necessary. making. There we go. You have the plane that was You have the airdrops that they were And you have the Merrill's Marauders www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 131 insignia. And I think it's clean, it tells your story, it's got the necessary -- if we need to move a little bit of wording around, we can do it. But if we just look at the river and the mountains and know that Joe can make those very similar, obverse and reverse, I think you and with a beautiful medal when you're done. So I just wanted to give you time enough to think about that. I would next like to talk to Sam Gill, please. Sam? Okay, we'll go back to Sam. How about Dean? DR. KOTLOWSKI: Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm Dean Kotlowski speaking. Yes, I hope everyone can hear me. There seems to be a little bit of background noise. But, Mr. Howland and Mr. Passanisi, I want to thank you so much for your service to our country in World War II. And it's wonderful to be able to honor that service and sacrifice. And I just wanted to echo what my colleagues and our committee chair, Mary Lannin, said. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 132 Reverse 1 or 2 would work wonderfully as an obverse. I hope you all think about this. I don't want to put pressure on you, but it is very similar to the kind of coin that we did for a group of women called the Hidden Figures mathematicians in the Space Program. And from what I remember, the liaisons were very very impressed with that design of that coin. So I really think that that is my -- I don't think -- I know that that's really my favorite design. I see Mary's point to No. 7, the obverse which then becomes a reverse. I think Mike was talking about this a little earlier. the parachute and the plane. This gets And if you can't do the parachute and the plane, if you decide you want to go with 5C -- and, again, just let me repeat: Let's say you do 5C and you don't put the parachute and the plane, I think you can make a mention of the support that was so vital and was provided in a written statement or a card and make it part of the ceremony, just so that you don't have too much going on. But I like this design. guys have a very good eye. I think you It reminds me of my www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 133 grandfather in the European theater who got the Bronze Star and also Combat Infantry Badge, and I think that's wonderful. The last point I want to make is in terms of artistry. Obverse and Reverse 1, let's just take a look at that and may be applaud the artist here just a little bit for the pretty intricacy and intimacy of the design. We don't often see that -- or I don't remember seeing it a lot and service-related coins and medals. Of those are my comments, Madam Chairperson. shakes out. I'm interested to see how this all Thank you very much. MS. STAFFORD: This is Jennifer. Please, everybody, mute your microphones. We are getting a lot of distortion. Mary, you may have muted your mic. Unmute it. MS. LANNIN: Robin Salmon, please. MS. SALMON: This is Robin Salmon. MS. LANNIN: Yes. you hear me? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Can Meeting June 15, 2021 134 MS. SALMON: is really interesting. All right. This portfolio And I struggled quite a bit because I understand why the stakeholders want the things that they want, the designs, the elements to be there. I also want it to be an absolutely beautiful medal and a powerful medal. The Reverse No. 2 is the one that really drew me. The design tells the story, for me. I realize I wasn't there, but it -- from what I know of the history of this particular operation, I think it does encapsule at least a part of what won't, just as many of these designs encapsule parts. But I think this is a beautiful and compelling design that still gives the significance of what happened. I also really liked many of the bamboo designs in the reverse. My father also trained in Panama for -- had the jungle training, and that was the only thing he would talk about was the -- all of the bamboo. So at least growing up, that's what I have in my mind as far as the jungle. However, I can certainly go with 5C as the reverse and add the elements that were discussed www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 135 to make that more complete. So thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much, Robin. Do we have Sam Gill anywhere? MS. LANNIN: Mr. Gill, you may have to hit star 6 to unmute yourself, in case you got hit. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Sam? How about we call on Donald Scarinci? MS. STAFFORD: Mary, this is Jennifer. Donald's not on the call. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Oh, I'm sorry. Dennis Tucker. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. This is Dennis Tucker. And thanks to our liaisons for your service and for the service of your fathers. I understand the challenges that come with finding agreement in a military Congressional Gold Medal like this. My grandfather-in-law was in the United States Army forces in the far East as a -- he was an officer in the Philippine Constabulary and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 136 volunteered. He was in the Medical Corps. He ended up becoming a prisoner of war. So to try to capture an entire -experience would be very difficult. But the congressional Gold Medal for the Filipino veterans of World War II had enough in the design that we feel that he was well represented. You know, it had guerrilla and infantry officers, etc. So it is a challenge, and we do appreciate that. Here on the Committee, we often talk about the obverse of a Congressional Gold Medal being the verb, showing the action, the men and women in action and what they did during the war, and then the reverse being the noun. That's where you spell things out, you give the names of battles and campaigns and details like that. I think you've made excellent choices recommending Reverse 11 for the obverse and Obverse 5C for the reverse. completely. I agree with those designs I think they make an excellent medal, and they do everything that a Congressional Gold Medal needs to do. And they do it well. And I know that www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 137 Joe Menna would be able to work wonders with the addition of the symbolic elements of the airdrop plane and the parachute. Joe, I think about your "Fallen Heroes" of Pennsylvania 9/11 medal and how you can take design but still not elements and make them almost ghostly visible and very much part of the design, overwhelming or overtaking the rest of the design. So I think that those will be added easily. I'm not a big fan -MS. LANNIN: Either that -- MR. TUCKER: -- of silhouettes -- MS. LANNIN: Sorry. MR. TUCKER: -- heroic Americans. think the silhouettes reduce your humanity. I In the coin and medal design, they obscure it and they make it anonymous. what that And that's the exact opposite of we want to do with a Congressional Gold Medal honors World War II heroes. So I am not a fan at all of the designs that show silhouettes. I think that we need to show these men in action as they were, and I think that www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 138 Reverse 11 does that very well. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Peter van Alfen. MR. VAN ALFEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. This is Peter van Alfen. Before I began, I would like to thank Mr. Howland and Mr. Passanisi for their service and would like to welcome their sons as well to this process, which I'm sure you're finding quite interesting. I have to agree with Tom and Mary. I do find Reverse 1 and 2 very compelling artistically. They really drew my eye -- I really am quite drawn to both of these designs as possibilities for and obverse. And I am really rather enchanted by Mary's description of Obverse 7 as a reverse with the continuity of the mountains going from one side to another, and I think that that would, in fact, make a rather attractive medal. Although because both of these obverse www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 139 and reverses share similar inscriptions, we'd have to change the inscription on one side or the other. And we might, you know, in that process, also, you know, maybe on this obverse remove the jungle on the lower portion and put in the Combat Infantry Badge or something along those lines. So those would be my preferences, although I do find, you know, that the preferences of the liaisons, 05 as a reverse, I think, would work reasonably work with Reverse 11, I believe it was, which was also the preference. I think that those preferred obversereverse designs would work okay, but I don't think that they would be as strong artistically as what Mary and Tom have proposed or at least what Mary's proposed with Reverse 1 and/or 2 and Obverse 7. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thanks, Peter. Art Bernstein, please. MR. BERNSTEIN: This is Art Bernstein. With regard to the obverse, I would like to go to the points that Dean was making about www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 140 Obverse 1. I was very attracted to this design. my first reaction was that it was very busy. And But then as I looked at it more, I found it to be beautifully symmetrical. You have to search for the details. But when you look at it carefully, you finally see that there are three soldiers, there are three rifles, all intertwined with that bamboo that Robin mentioned that seemed to be so significant in terms of this series of battles. So I'd like some attention paid to Obverse 1. When it comes to the reverse, I thought 5C had a lot of what we're looking for, lots of information conveyed. theaters are on there. The dates are on there. The The battles are on there. As well as that impressive Combat Infantry Badge and the medal. So that would be my vote for the reverse. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thanks, Art. Mike Moran. MR. MORAN: MS. LANNIN: Am I last, Mary? I think so, unless somebody -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 141 MR. MORAN: You put me in the woodshed. I will give some points to Obverse 1 simply because I agree with what everybody's said. And I think if you put a little relief for that front soldier and the bamboo stalks there and put the laurel wreath behind there, it'd be a very impressive medal. But I'm also drawn to Reverse 1 and 2. And I would suggest that when we vote, we combine 1 and 2 into a single vote to see where it goes, because otherwise the two draw away from each other. That's where I will be giving my votes. I am afraid that when you look at Reverse 11 as an obverse for this medal, you'll have the screen there which is going to be effectively the negative space, but you're going to lose a lot of detail of these soldiers blending into the riverbank. sky there. There's no real I know in the jungle there's not. But still, I'm not sure that this thing will coin up as well as it draws up. And that's a caution for you. I am not going to, for the reverse, oppose 5C. I get it. For the Bronze Star and the Combat Infantry Badge, that's important. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 142 I would advise that rather than us designing by committee, that we make a motion to put a C-47 in here and a parachute drop, that the sponsors ought to look at a drawing from Joe Menna first to make up their minds whether they want or not. I don't think it's our place to decide that. It doesn't affect the well, it could. art one way or another -- It will have a negative effect if it affects it at all. So that's where I am, Mary. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Mike. Is Sam Gill with us? MR. GILL: Mary, this is Sam. Can you MS. LANNIN: Oh, long-lost Sam. Please hear me now? give us your thoughts. MR. GILL: all along. I could hear -- I was here It just -- something happened to the audio on my phone. So here are my thoughts: I took a slightly different tack is everybody is doing on this. I looked at 2A as my obverse because it still tells all the story; it has the elements of this campaign. And the mules were www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 143 very, very important. And it's got the airplane, the C-47; it's got the parachutist coming in. explains -- it's got the patch there. And it also And it explains the Merrill's Marauders and so forth. And then I too chose 5C as a reverse. So that was my combination. I could certainly live with the sponsors' recommendations, but I liked the symmetry in 2A and I liked very much 5C. Thank you, Mary. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much. Well, I think we've finally heard all of the Committee members now. Does anybody else have a further comment? MR. HOWLAND: MS. LANNIN: You mean liaisons? If the liaisons would like to make a comment, go right ahead, Mr. Howland. MR. HOWLAND: I think we didn't like the silhouette designs because we didn't feel it was -- I think somebody else commented it didn't really show the human aspect. neutral. It's kind of like human I don't know what word to use. And so we -- like, as soon as we saw www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 144 that one, we didn't like it at all. As far as the one with the soldiers coming out of the jungle with the bamboo, that was one that we considered, and also the one -- I believe it was 2A that was just mentioned. was another one we considered. amongst the group. Yes, that one. That But we had gone to 11 So, I mean, a couple things on 2A: It says "5307th CUP." reference to "CUP." A lot of guys didn't like the Like, what was that, a regatta or something, you know? Like, the whole unit should be spelled out, "Composite" you know, "Unit Provisional." But we did consider 2A. We thought maybe the soldier looked a little too skeletal, though they are -- they were beat up at the end. But 2A was something we kind of look at. But the silhouettes, I don't believe any of us liked the silhouettes at all. I don't -- John, what do you think? MR. PASSANISI: you. -- and -- agree with First, I'd like to say that all the artists did a tremendous job. I mean, all the renderings were just absolutely beautiful, in my opinion, I mean. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 And Meeting June 15, 2021 145 you could tell that a lot of work was put into it. But, yes, on the R-1 and 2, we almost immediately didn't feel that it expressed the mission of the Marauders. It just -- like Bob said, it left the human element out of it. And I'd like to ask the engraver, if he's online, what he thinks that the 11, is that feasible and can that image actually work on a coin. I mean, if he's the one that's going to do the engraving, then he is the one to ask. MR. MENNA: Let me clarify. Hi. This is Joe Menna. I don't sculpt any of these. I mean, once -- I have sculpt a bunch of them, but not -- I mean, when you guys are all saying, "I know Joe can do a great job," it's the sculptors. credit to the department. I just want to give It's not me. I'm just the coach; they are the players. But this is eminently doable, and I think it would be fantastic on a medal. would be really cool, actually. MS. LANNIN: I think it Thank you. Thanks, Joe. So I have a little information from www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 146 Jennifer to everybody that the scores are going to need to be sent to Roger Vasquez. And it's Roger dot Vasquez at the US Mint, V-A-S-Q-U-E-Z. So we need to get our scores down and send them in. MS. STAFFORD: MS. LANNIN: And this is Jennifer. It is 4:13 -- MR. BERNSTEIN: MS. STAFFORD: Mary, I --- and a -- in the chat, Roger's e-mail, if you didn't get that. MS. LANNIN: Right. MR. BERNSTEIN: Mary, I have a rookie question about scoring. MS. LANNIN: Yeah? MR. BERNSTEIN: If we like a reverse as an obverse, we give that our most points even though it's in the wrong -- on the wrong side -MS. LANNIN: Yeah. Yes. And maybe type next to it, if you can, Art, or scribble next to it so we know what you're after. MR. BERNSTEIN: MS. LANNIN: MR. GILL: Okay. Thank you. Mary, this is Sam Gill. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 147 MS. LANNIN: MR. GILL: Yeah, Sam. Just a quick question again. Could you just repeat that? Are we not sending this to Greg? MS. LANNIN: No. There's -- if you look at the chat, you're sending to Roger Vasquez. MR. GILL: Oh, okay. MS. LANNIN: MR. GILL: Got it. can you see that there? Yes. MS. STAFFORD: And, Sam, you should have -MR. GILL: V-A-S -- MS. STAFFORD: -- an e-mail as well with it. MR. GILL: Okay. MS. STAFFORD: An e-mail with it? Yes, sir. I sent it to everybody about 15 minutes ago. MR. GILL: it. Thank you. I'll go look for Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. MR. PASSANISI: Mary, could I just make a quick statement? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 148 MS. LANNIN: Who is this, please? MR. PASSANISI: MS. LANNIN: Sorry. John Passanisi. Yes, John. MR. PASSANISI: I appreciate the comments and the thought everybody has put into this, but I just want to make sure that everybody takes into account that the men that were actually there, two of the men that actually were there, they're the ones that both Bob and I -- our fathers -- that we relied upon for the input in our opinions. So I would just ask all to kindly just keep their thoughts and opinions before you make your final decision. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thank you so very much. Would you please mute your microphones, please. (Off the record.) MS. STAFFORD: Roger, how are we doing on collecting the scores? MR. VASQUEZ: So far so good. have a few more that I need to add in. (Off the record.) www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I do Meeting June 15, 2021 149 MS. STAFFORD: Okay, Dennis. received it, and I forwarded it to Roger. MR. TUCKER: I just Thank you. April, I apologize. I accidentally sent you one of the earlier ones, and I just send you the Merrill's Marauders. MS. STAFFORD: MR. TUCKER: Okay. It's always something, isn't it? MS. STAFFORD: It appears that that's the theme for today, yes. MR. TUCKER: Ain't we got fun. MS. STAFFORD: Okay, Dennis, you received your second one. Roger, that's on its way to you. MR. VASQUEZ: This is Roger. Thank you, April. All right. Roger. Hello again. This is I apologize for the extra time that it took. Because some people did score specifically as reverse designs utilizing obverse designs and obverse designs utilizing reverse designs, I wanted to be sure that I tabulated those correctly so that if we need to, we www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 150 can dig into those scores in that manner. So I'll go ahead and read the scores you now. I'll go ahead and pull open the context sheets as well so that we can follow along in that manner. It should just be one moment. All right. Does anybody see the Merrill's Marauders portfolio up on the screen? MS. LANNIN: MR. VASQUEZ: Roger reading the scores. Yeah. Yes, Roger, we do. Thank you. All right. I'm going to start with Obverse 1, the score is nine. Obverse 2 -- apologies -- rather, Obverse 2A, the score is six; 2B had one; 2C had one; 3 had one; 4 had one; 5A had one; 5B had one, 5C had 23 points -- that was the largest vote getter. Obverse 7 -- I'm sorry -- Obverse 6 had three points. Obverse 7 had 13 points. Let me clarify. I'm not sure I said it correctly. Obverse 6 had three points. And Obverse 8 had Obverse 7 had 13 points. one point. Any questions before I move on to the reverse? Moving on to the reverse then. Reverse 1 received 10 points. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Reverse Meeting June 15, 2021 151 2 received 14 points. Reverse 3 received one. Reverse 4 received two. Reverse 5 received one. Reverse 6 received two. Reverse 7 received two. Reverse 8 received two. Reverse 1 -- I'm sorry. Reverse 9A received one. Reverse 9B received two. Reverse 9C received two. Reverse 9D received one. Reverse 10 received two. And reverse 11 received 16, making it the highest vote getter by two points. MS. LANNIN: MR. VASQUEZ: MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thank you -- Mary -I'm sorry, Roger. What did you say? MR. VASQUEZ: Actually, I was turning over to you, Mary. MS. LANNIN: much. Oh. Okay. Thank you so That's tough tabulating, isn't it? MR. VASQUEZ: MS. LANNIN: Yes, ma'am. Okay. So do we have any further comments from the Committee? MR. MORAN: MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Mary, this is Mike Moran. Yes, Mike. Do we need a motion to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 152 reverse these so that our 11 is the obverse and Obverse 5C is the reverse? MS. LANNIN: If you'd like to make one, that would be great. MR. MORAN: Consider it made. MR. VAN ALFEN: This is Peter. I second that. MS. SALMON: This is Robin. MS. LANNIN: Peter? More getting in line. Okay. Okay. Second. Great. So reverse order so that R-11 is the obverse and 5C -- and 05C is the reverse. All in favor of Mike's motion say aye. MULTIPLE VOICES: MS. LANNIN: Aye. Anybody opposed? So the motion passes. nay? And so that is what you have, gentlemen. MR. VAN ALFEN: Mary, this is Peter. But I think there was a request, if I recall, on Obverse -- or sorry -- Reverse 11, if that were to become the obverse, which is now has, that there be a tweaking of the inscription or a inclusion of -- I'm forgetting what it was -- the provisional units -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 153 composite unit -MS. STAFFORD: MS. LANNIN: 5307 -- yeah 57th something, composite unit -MR. VAN ALFEN: whatever there was. -- or something, Yeah, five three -- Composite Unit Provisional 5307. And that could go underneath Merrill's -MS. LANNIN: I thought that Joe was going to put that as an arc underneath Merrill's Marauders, if I'm not mistaken. MR. VAN ALFEN: Right. Do we need to have a motion on that, or is that -MS. LANNIN: I think so. MS. STAFFORD: Yes. MR. VAN ALFEN: Yes, please. Okay. Then I would like to make that motion. MS. LANNIN: I concur. I second it. All in favor? MR. VAN ALFEN: MR. TUCKER: Aye. This is Dennis. make a friendly amendment to that? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 May I Meeting June 15, 2021 154 MS. LANNIN: amendment? What is your friendly What is your friendly amendment, Dennis? MR. TUCKER: To also include the airdrop elements, as the liaison requested, just to combine all of that in one -MR. VAN ALFEN: Dennis, I think that Mike's suggestion that we allow Joe to create some artwork that would include it and then not include it and then let the liaisons decide themselves, is that something that would be acceptable? Or do we need to make a decision on the C-47, do you think? MS. LANNIN: April, what do you think? MS. STAFFORD: Well, I believe it would be very helpful to our process given that we have some of our liaisons split on the point. You have heard from three of the liaisons that they feel strongly it should be included and then two liaisons saying that they would rather it not be included. So to have it on the record would be very helpful to our process. Thank you. As all liaisons are in agreement that they would take both Committees' feedback on this point. MR. VAN ALFEN: Okay. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Then I would Meeting June 15, 2021 155 welcome Dennis's amendment to the motion that we decide to include the C-47 on the reverse in addition to the inscription on the obverse. MS. LANNIN: All in favor of the friendly amendment in the motion? MULTIPLE VOICES: MS. LANNIN: Aye. Nays? Motion passes. So, April, how are we going to get the updated artwork to the liaison? MS. STAFFORD: that. We also -- we still have to go to the U.S. Commission with the We can facilitate of Fine Art. But we typically work liaisons -MS. LANNIN: MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Afterwards on tweaks that the Committees recommend. MS. LANNIN: Okay. And so then we'll leave it up to Joe to provide the art for 5C. All right? Okay. Let's see. more business today. We don't have any We started a little bit late, and we're finishing essentially a little bit early in www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 156 that regard. We will continue the public hearing tomorrow at ten a.m. for consideration of candidate designs for the 2022 Purple Heart Hall of Honor commemorative coin and the candidate designs for the 2022 American Women Quarter-Dollar Program. At this point I call this meeting in recess. Is there a second? MR. BERNSTEIN: Second from Art Bernstein. MS. LANNIN: Thanks, Art. All in favor of adjourning say aye. MULTIPLE VOICES: MS. LANNIN: Aye. Those opposed say nay. The meeting is in recess at 4:44 p.m. (Whereupon, the meeting concluded at 4:44 p.m.) www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 157 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, NATALIE SCHMITTING, the officer before whom the foregoing proceedings were taken, do hereby certify that any witness(es) in the foregoing proceedings, prior to testifying, were duly sworn; that the proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting by a qualified transcriptionist; that said digital audio recording of said proceedings are a true and accurate record to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. NATALIE SCHMITTING Notary Public in and for the Washington, D.C. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting June 15, 2021 158 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER I, LARRY LARA, do hereby certify that this transcript was prepared from the digital audio recording of the foregoing proceeding, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. LARRY LARA www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376