Full text of Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meetings, Recommendations, and Minutes : Meeting, June 12, 2018 : Transcript

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Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Public Meeting (06/12/18)
Page 1
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
UNITED STATES MINT
CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE

PUBLIC MEETING

Liaisons for 2020-2021 America the Beautiful Candidate
Design Review

United States Mint
801 9th Street Northwest
Washington, D.C. 20220

Tuesday, June 12, 2018

Reported by:

Michael Farkas,
Capital Reporting Company

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Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Public Meeting (06/12/18)
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A P P E A R A N C E S
Advisory Committee Members
Robert Hoge
Erik Jansen
Mary Lannin
Donald Scarinci
Jeanne Stevens-Sollman
Dennis Tucker
Thomas J. Uram
Heidi Wastweet

Mint Staff Members
Betty Birdsong
Pam Borer
Vanessa Franck
Ron Harrigal
April Stafford
Megan Sullivan
Roger Vasquez
Apryl Whitaker

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A P P E A R A N C E S

Liaisons
Jason Bordelon, Chief of Interpretation and Education
National Park of American Samoa
Linda Cook, Superintendent
Weir Farm National Historic Site
Kristen Hase, Superintendent
Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve
Vester Marable, Park Ranger
Tuskegee Airmen National Historic Site
Christina Marts, Deputy Superintendent
Marsh-Billings-Rockefeller National Historical
Park

Other Participants
Brandon Hall
Coin Update
Mike Unser
CoinNews

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C O N T E N T S
Page
Welcome and Roll Call

Approval of Minutes

Discussion with Mint Staff

2020-2021 America the Beautiful
Candidate Design Review
Weir Farm National Historic Site

10
12

Marsh-Billings-Rockefeller National
Historical Park

Salt River Bay National Historical
Park and Ecological Preserve

Tuskegee Airmen National Historic Site

109

National Park of American Samoa

138

Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve

174

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P R O C E E D I N G S
WELCOME AND ROLL CALL
MS. LANNIN:
everybody hear me?

Okay.

Good morning.

Can

I would like to call to

order this meeting of the Citizens Coinage Advisory
Committee for Tuesday, June 12, 2018.
And before we begin, I would like to introduce
the members of the committee.
when I call your name.
MR. HOGE:

Please respond present

Robert Hoge?

Present.

MS. LANNIN:

Erik Jansen?

MR. JANSEN:

Present.

MS. LANNIN:

Jeanne Stevens-Sollman?

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

Present.

Donald Scarinci?

MR. SCARINCI:

Yes, here.

MS. LANNIN:

Dennis Tucker?

MR. TUCKER:

Present.

MS. LANNIN:

Thomas Uram, by phone?

MR. URAM:

Present.

MS. LANNIN:

Heidi Wastweet?

MS. WASTWEET:

Present.

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MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

chair today's meeting.

I am Mary Lannin.

I will

And we have two of our members

who are unable to be here and that would be Michael
Moran and Herman Viola, who are not able to attend.

we have members of the press who would like to
introduce themselves?
MR. HULL:

Yeah.

This is Brandon Hull, with

Coin Update.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. UNSER:
MS. LANNIN:
righty.

Good morning.

Anyone else?

Mike Unser, with CoinNews.
Morning, Mike.

Anyone else?

All

The CCAC will consider the following items

today.
First of all, the discussion of the letter to
the secretary and the minutes from the March 13, 2018
meeting, a review of the candidate designs for the
final America the Beautiful quarters program for 2020
and 2021.
And finally, for the record, I would like to
acknowledge the following Mint staff who are
participating in today's public meeting.

Ron Harrigal.

Thank you for coming, Ron.

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MR. HARRIGAL:
MS. LANNIN:

Present.

Okay.

April Stafford, Pam Borer

and Vanessa Franck, Betty Birdsong, April Whitaker,
Megan Sullivan.
you go, Roger.

Am I missing anyone?

Roger?

There

All right.

APPROVAL OF MINUTES
MS. LANNIN:

So the first item on the agenda

is the approval of minutes for the March 13th meeting.
Any comments on the minutes?

Okay.

Hearing none, is

there a motion to approve the minutes?
MR. JANSEN:

So moved.

MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Erik.

Is there a

second?
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. HOGE:

Second.

MS. LANNIN:
Thank you.

Second.

Who said second?

Robert?

All those in favor, please signify by

saying aye.
(Chorus of ayes.)
MS. LANNIN:
MR. URAM:

Opposed?

Aye.

DISCUSSION WITH MINT STAFF

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MS. LANNIN:

Thanks, Tom.

All right.

Without

objection, the minutes and the letters are approved.
Okay.

Are there any comments that you would like to

address to the Mint before we begin?

Dennis?

MR. TUCKER:

I have a general question.

MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. TUCKER:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

a question for Ron.

This is

I think you'd be able to help me

understand this.
Since the America the Beautiful program
started in 2010, we've reviewed hundreds of designs and
45 of them have gone through the finalization and made
their way into production.
Of those, if I'm counting them correctly, only
two of them are designs where a design element breaks
into the outer perimeter of the coin, where we have the
name of the park, its location, E pluribus unum.
It was -- I'm thinking of the 2016 Fort
Moultrie where the battle flag breaks through at about
2 o'clock and the 2018 Cumberland Island where the
crane's wingtip breaks the border around 9 o'clock.
So my question is, I noticed in this design

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portfolio, we've got 52 design candidates and about a
third of them have design elements that break into that
perimeter.

And in the Tuskegee Airmen designs, about

two-thirds of them break into the perimeter.
So my question is while we're reviewing these
candidates, should we automatically discard those that
break into that border or should we assume that they'll
be modified so that all of the design elements fit
within the perimeter?
MR. HARRIGAL:

Or how should we approach that?
Okay.

You know, you mentioned

that we have had a couple that have broken the border
before.
I think it's we're trying to allow more
artistic creativity in coming forward.

And that is an

element to add a 3-D effect to the designs.

And I

think the artists are taking more and more advantage of
that to try and differentiate from trying to just keep
it within like a picture window type of look.
With that being said, we do call out a lot of
the designs that have too much material that goes into
the borders.
there.

As you know, that's a higher plateau

So you end up with less relief to be able to

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carry the design into the border there.
We do allow enough, if it's -- if the design
element is not too major.

As you get toward the

border, you have less relief to work with and then,
especially when you jump up onto the plateau, there's
even much less than that.

So we feel that if we can

carry the element up there, we allow the artist to come
forward with it.
MR. TUCKER:

Okay.

So we shouldn't consider

that a weakness or a disqualification.

I guess maybe

just take them on a case-by-case basis?
MR. HARRIGAL:
MR. TUCKER:

Okay.

MR. HARRIGAL:
MR. TUCKER:

Yes.

Okay.

MR. HARRIGAL:

Thanks, Ron.

You're welcome.

2021-2012 AMERICA THE BEAUTIFUL CANDIDATE DESIGN REVIEW
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Thank you.

I would like

to turn to April, who will be talking about the
portfolio for the 2020 and '21 America the Beautiful
coins.
MS. STAFFORD:

Thank you so much.

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As you

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know, the America the Beautiful quarters program is a
multiyear initiative authorized by Public Law 110-456,
also known as the America's Beautiful National Parks
Quarter Dollar Coin Act of 2008.
This act directs the United States Mint to
mint and issue 56 circulating quarter dollars with
reverse designs emblematic if a national park or other
national site in each state, the District of Columbia
and, of course, the U.S. territories.
They are issued sequentially each year in the
order in which the featured site was first established
as a national site or park.
Of course, these coins' obverses will continue
to feature the familiar, restored 1932 portrait of
George Washington by John Flanagan, while the reverse,
in addition to the design, will contain inscriptions of
the designation of the site and host jurisdiction, the
year of minting or issuance and the motto E pluribus
unum.
To accommodate the various time zones as well
as our liaisons' schedules, if it's okay with this
committee, we are going to review the quarters in a

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slightly different order than in the one that they're
presented in your binders.

So if you don’t mind, we

will first start with Weir Farm National Historic Site
in Connecticut.
WEIR FARM NATIONAL HISTORIC SITE
MS. STAFFORD:

Weir Farm National Historic

Site is the finest remaining landscape of American
Impressionism and provides a pristine setting where
contemporary artists can connect to and paint in the
same place that American masters painted at the turn of
the 19th century.
The park was home to Julien Alden Weir, a
leading figure in American art and the development of
American Impressionism.

Designed and preserved by

artists, the park is a singular crossroads of
creativity, art and nature.
Thousands of artists travel to the park every
year to be inspired by the rare quality of painter's
light at Weir Farm and to pain and draw en plein air in
the iconic and exquisite landscape.
Here visitors find an experience that empowers
and inspires them to connect with their personal

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creativity and enjoy the feeling of wellbeing that
results from that discovery.
Before sharing the candidate designs, I'd like
to highlight Weir Farm liaison's preferences, which can
be seen here.

They are CTO6, as seen on the left.

That's the first preference.
right, the second preference.

And CT18, seen on the
And of course I'll note

these as we go through the candidate designs.
We are fortunate to have our liaison and Weir
Park National Historic Site superintendent Linda Cook
here with us.

Linda, can I ask you to say a few words

to the committee?
MS. COOK:

Good morning, everyone.

It's a

great honor to be here and we would really like to
thank everyone at the Mint and this committee for
working with us on behalf of the park and coming to -(off mic).
Working at a national park that is dedicated
to inspiration and American painting is often slightly
different than large, sweeping landscapes and
resources, unbounded resources that are typically in
the mind of Americans and others around the world in

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terms of what national parks designate.
So from a Weir Farm perspective, you know, our
issues of painting and sites become really granular and
everything becomes very permanent.
And so, I want to thank everyone again for
letting us agonize over these designs and get the best.
So, thank you.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

MS. STAFFORD:
candidate designs.

So we will start with the

Design 1 displays a French easel

near a stone wall in front of Weir House.
Designs 3 and 3a celebrate the tradition of
American Impressionist painting by featuring an en
plein air artist's palette and brushes in front of an
iconic stone wall with the site's trees in the
background.

Design 3, seen here, also features the

artist's canvas on an easel.

This is 3 and 3a.

Design 4 features J. Alden Weir's studio,
which is beautifully preserved to commemorate his art
and legacy.

Design 5 depicts the hand of an artist

creating a painting with Weir Farm in the background.
Design 6, again, the liaison's first

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preference, portrays an artist painting outside Julian
Alden Weir's studio at Weir Farm.

It's inspired by

various images of the studio and Weir's paintings
created on the property, as well as descriptions of
Weir and his fellow artists absorbing creative and
aesthetic inspiration from the rural environment.

The

design allows the viewer to feel as if he or she is
standing where Weir stood.

The inscription "National

Park for the Arts" is included.
Design 10 highlights a painting being created
from the artist's point of view.

The palette and hand

with brush are symbols of the work and enjoyment in
painting en plein air.

The inscription "National Park

for the Arts" is included.
Design 11 shows a painting being created of
the Burlingham House Visitor's Center and a stone wall
with the inscription "National Park for the Arts".
Design 12 depicts and artist working on a painting of
the Burlingham House Visitor's Center and a stone wall.
Designs 13 and 14 portray a portable easel
holding a canvas with the artist's painting of the
surroundings overlaying the actual landscape at Weir

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farm.

The canvas and easel are portrayed in greater

detail than the rest of the design, underscoring the
mission of the site, specifically to create a legacy of
artistic expression.

This is design 13 and design 14.

Design 15 features a log gate that lets people
pass through fields typical of the site.

Also seen are

trees in a rolling landscape with a natural granite
outcropping.

A palette at the bottom of the

composition depicts the inscription "National Park for
the Arts".
Design 16 displays a portable easel holding a
blank canvas looking toward the entrance to the site.
It shows the stone walls common to the area, a wild
growth of lilies and the aforementioned canvas,
symbolic here of the optimism and potential of art.
Design 17 features a framed painting of a
landscape near the entrance to the site.

The

inscription "National Park for the Arts" is included.
And finally, design 18, the liaison's second
preference, features an en plein air painter applying
pigment to a stretched canvas, a creative endeavor
encouraged by the park.

It also includes the

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inscription "National Park for the Arts".
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, April.

Heidi, would

you like to begin, please?
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you, Mary.

I want to

start by going over some of the things that I look for
in coin design when I'm evaluating these packets so we
can sort of review these qualities.
The first thing I look for is clarity.
muddled?

Is it busy?

Is it

Or is the image clear and easily

viewed and that's directly related to also the other
quality of being size-appropriate.
In this program, we have the quarter size,
which is very, very small and very shallow.

And we

also have the five ounce version, which is large.
So these designs particularly, they have to
work in both sizes.

It can't be so simple that it

becomes boring in the larger size and it can't be too
complex that it disappears in the smaller size.

So I'm

looking for clarity and size appropriateness.
The other thing that adds to clarity is having
negative space around the subject matter.
defines the subject.

So it

There's field behind it.

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have just layers and layers of texture, then when
you're looking at the actual coin, it just blends into
one busyness and nothing stands out.
The other thing that I'm looking for is
creativity.
explanatory.

And I think that's pretty selfAnd the other thing is composition.

has to have an artistic sense to the way the images are
laid out.

We often on this committee say we don’t want

to see storyboards.

And that's what we're talking

about.
We want to see composition, rather than just a
literal interpretation and this is also like a
snapshot.

If you're just taking a snapshot photograph,

you're not taking any artistic efforts into that
snapshot.

It's just a moment.

in a coin design.

And that doesn't work

We want to see an artistic,

thoughtful layout.
The other thing I'm looking for is message.
Does it get the message across with symbology with its
images?

Do we know what it's about?

Does it invoke

curiosity to look further?
The other thing I look for is when we look at

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the text.

Is the text incorporated as part of the

composition and the design?
think a likeminded.
text.

And we on this committee I

We like to see a minimal amount of

When we add more text it's because it really,

really adds something, some information that we feel
must be there.

Otherwise, we say take it off.

So with these things in mind, clarity, size
appropriateness, creativity, composition, message,
minimal text and incorporated text, then I want to talk
about the packet.
And I'll start with the liaison preference of
number six.

Thank you.

I think this one hits all of

the points that we want to say about this park.

does have the additional text "National Park for the
Arts".

But it's laid out in an artistic way.

really relevant information.

It adds

It doesn't muddle the

design.
And even though we have a figure that's small
-- kind of smallish on the palette, he's surrounded by
this grassy land.

So if that is sculpted soft enough,

that will highlight the subject matter.
The trees in the background you can see has

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negative space around the trees that lets them be
defined.

It doesn't get too busy or muddled.

building is very clear.
the marks.

The

So I think this one hits all

And I like this one.

The second preference, number 18, we'll talk
about next.
on a coin.

This one is hard to do the disbodied hand
Sometimes it works, but not very often.

And I don’t like the fact that we're looking at the
back of the canvas.
And the brushes in the middle, although it has
some symmetry to it and there is some composition, this
one just does not appeal to me as much as the other
preference.

I would really rather go with six.

The other one I want to talk about is number
13.

This one hit it out of the park with creativity.

This really stood out in the packet to me.
concept.

I love this

I like the layout.
But what breaks my heart is the image on the

canvas is very muddled.

You know, the building behind

all the trees -- if you imagine this is just a painting
itself, I don’t think your average landscape painter
would put that tree trunk on the left side.

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It doesn't really make any sense as part of
the composition of the painting.

I wish the landscape

itself was more clear and would read better at the size
of a quarter.

I would love to make this one.

99 percent there.

But it's

I wish I could just change the

choice of landscape because I love the creativity of
this.
I love the way the canvas breaks that border
that Dennis was talking about.

And in this particular

series, when an image breaks that barrier, we get a
little incused effect there, which is nice.
And then, design 14, which is also very
similar, I like the landscape on the left there.
kind of clear, where there's perspective.

It's

But I don’t

like it as well as 13 because of the symmetry.

So I'm

anxious to hear what my colleagues say about this
design.
A couple of others that I liked, number 15.
like the concept here, the incorporation of the
palette.

But this would have been so much better if

the artist had taken the initiative and the license to
get rid of the bushes in the background with the low

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trees.
That would have added more negative space,
which would have defined those trees and it wouldn't
look so busy.

But as it's drawn, if you look at the

actual size printout on your page, it's just going to
become a monotonous texture and it's not going to look
as good as the drawing.
there.

I think I'll end my comments

I'm looking forward to hearing other thoughts.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Heidi.

Tom, would you

like to begin?
MR. URAM:

Sure.

I agreed with everything

that Heidi had said there very concisely and how she
particularly with what we're looking for and not
looking also for a postcard, as I'm sure some of my
other colleagues will have to say as well.
But the CT06 with him looking at painting I
think has the most what we're looking to convey the
message that Linda and her crew over there would like
to probably convey.

I think it says a lot.

I do like the 13.

I thought that was really -

- could really -- it'd be interesting to see how that
mints up in both proof and the uncirculated version.

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But I could see the highlight of a proof on this, on
number 13 as being really, really different.

So I

think that I'll give some votes to 12 as well.
And as far as -- as far as 18, the other
choice of the group was I agree.
of the canvas.

I don’t like the back

It just doesn't -- the background

there, I just don’t think it does as much to promote
the park.
But I too like 15 in regards to the creativity
of the palette and how it is.

But with the comments

just made regarding the negative space, it could have
been better and probably it would have -- I mean, if we
didn't have that in the back, if that could be taken
out, I think it'd be a great design.
So my thought is I really like the creativity
of 13.

However, it maybe doesn't say enough as it

relates to the park.

And it really doesn't -- if it

had said the arts in there and a few other things,
maybe it would have been more descriptive for what we
want to try to accomplish.
So I guess I lean more towards 16 and 15.
Thank you, Madam Chair.

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MS. LANNIN:

Thank you so much, Tom.

And

while I have the mic, can I ask everyone who's
listening by phone to mute their phones unless they're
actually speaking?
the rest of us.

That would help the transcriber and

Thank you so much.

Robert, would you

like to go next?
MR. HOGE:

Yes.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

agree with my colleagues' statements on these things,
very much so.

A couple of observations of my own.

First of all, I do like number six.

But I

don’t particularly care that much for the appearance of
the figure, the painter.

It looks like just a 19th

century man standing there with his back to us.
And I think this could have been done in a
much more interesting way, perhaps something a bit more
impressionistic, not necessarily so dated in his little
suit, not necessarily a male figure.

But in general, I

think overall this design is perhaps the most effective
at conveying the idea of the park.
Another consideration, I do like number 15,
although I agree with Heidi and Tom that it's really
just too busy for a tiny coin.

This background with

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all of the bushes and trees I think is just going to be
a lost little mess when you see it on the size of a
quarter.

But I like the idea of the palette with the

capturing the national park for the arts design and the
fact that it is a beautiful landscape.
Number 16 is a nice idea.

But with a blank

canvas right there in the middle, this is kind of the
Aristotelian horror vacui.

I mean, this is a big empty

space in the middle of everything.

But the idea of 13,

14, 16 and 17, capturing an impression of a painting as
part of the field I think is a nice thought.

And I

think this could have been explored a little bit more
thoroughly and perhaps a little bit more effectively.
I agree with my colleagues that number 18,
while a nice design, I think doesn't work as
effectively as one would like for the coin design.
back of the canvas, not so interesting.

The

The landscape

and the distance is far too tiny to be on a quarter.
In general, I think number 15, if it could be
cleaned up, might be perhaps the most effective.

And

if we were to select number six, which I do like, I'd
like to see that perhaps possibly changed too.

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you.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. URAM:

Thank you, Robert.

Madam Chair, to follow up with

Robert there, is it appropriate to have a -- can we ask
Ron or whoever is there if that could be cleaned up so
that we know when we're voting if it's a possibility to
do what was just discussed?
MS. LANNIN:

So you're talking about number

15, cleaning up the shrubbery in the background and
some of the trees to make it a little more -MR. URAM:

Including more negative space,

right.
MR. HARRIGAL:

Yeah.

Okay.

So for that one,

I would say come up with your decisions on what you
want to go forward with and then make a motion.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. HARRIGAL:

And we will deal with the

motion.
MS. LANNING:
MS. STAFFORD:
interesting.

All right.

Thank you.

April?

I think -- I think it's

As part of that discussion, we would want

to consult with Linda Cook and get her input because

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for this park in particular, the preservation of the
landscape and keeping it in the same shape, in the same
form as it was when Weir and all the other master
Impressionists painted at the turn of the century.
That is a key aspect of the mission, so that
artists today can paint literally the same landscape
that Weir would have seen.

And so, we would want to do

that in a very caring and thoughtful way, if this were
to be changed.
MS. LANNIN:

Pruning, as it were.

MS. STAFFORD:
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MS. STAFFORD:
MS. LANNIN:

Selective.

Selective pruning.

MS. STAFFORD:
MS. LANNIN:

Yeah.

Not pruning, but selective.

To still have the character of

Weir Farm, but make it more coinable and more easily
identified as Weir Farm.

Jeanne, would you like to go

next?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
Chair.

Yes.

I really appreciate -- oops.

Thank you, Madam
Is this on?

Yes?

I appreciate Heidi's introduction to what we should be

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looking at.

I think she really did a good job.

So,

thank you, Heidi.
My comments on the designs, I question so much
material within this tiny space.

So I'm not --

although I apologize, Linda, for not appreciating
number six with the preference that you have because I
just don’t -- I don’t think it's interesting enough.
However, no one has spoken about 3a.

And I'm not sure

how the Weir Farm feels about this particular piece.
But although the brushes on the left-hand side
are kind of confusing, I love the fact that there was
so much negative space between those trees and I love
the fact that there's a palette there.

It's dynamic.

I think we should have a great coin with this design.
And aside from agreeing with a lot of what was
said about the other coins, number 18, I don’t think is
that pleasing to me.

And number -- I agree with

everyone else's opinion about the canvas and the very
tiny bit of landscape that's on the right-hand side.
However, number 13, I'm not -- I'm not sure
that that's a choice that I would take.
innovation.

I like what's going on.

I like the

However, it's

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just too -- the little tiny painting landscape that we
were going to actually have on the coin, it's going to
be too small.
read right.

And then, I don’t think it's going to

So for now, my feeling is toward 3a.

MS. STAFFORD:

If I could interject, since you

asked -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. STAFFORD:

Sure.

Thank you.

There were a few designs that

our liaison identified as tied for third preference, as
it were.

3a was among them.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. STAFFORD:

Thank you.

The other two were design 1 and

4.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Yeah.

I think through

3a is powerful in the fact that it has less in there.
Thank you.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Jeanne.

MR. SCARINCI:

Donald?

Well, the surprise -- the

surprise so far came from you, Tom, that you actually
liked number six.

I think -- I think six doesn't -- I

think six -- I think neither of the Weir Farm's
preferences work.

Six -- and let me tell you why.

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Six doesn't work because it's a quarter,
right?

I mean, the paintbrush will probably look like

the leaf of a tree.
even see it.

It will look like -- you won't

You know?

It's just way too small.

know, the palette is way too small.
dollar, great.

If it were a

You know, I mean, potentially.

it's representational.
least it would work.

You

It's not my taste.

This doesn't work.

I mean,

But at
This I reject

out of hand because of the size of the palette.
So as to the -- as to 18, I think it was -- I
think it was Bob who said correctly that all you're
seeing here is -- you know, a large part of this little
quarter is going to be the back of a canvas, which is
really kind of boring and uninteresting.
And what works about 18 is what -- so let me
say something good about 18, right?

Because what does

work about 18 is that you have, you know, the
prominence of a design feature.
it's not the park.

In this case though,

It's the hand with a paintbrush.

And it's the fore -- the paintbrushes in the
foreground.
So what works about 18 is prominence.

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you know, I just got this morning the latest -- the
Minnesota park with the duck.
MS. LANNIN:

It's a loon.

MR. SCARINCI:
MS. LANNIN:

And --

Oh, the loon.

Says someone from Minnesota.

(Laughter.)
MR. SCARINCI:
MS. LANNIN:

Sorry.

Let's get that straight.

MR. SCARINCI:

But what's cool about it and

what really works about it is the prominence of the
loon, right?

So, but what are you giving prominence to

in this case?

In this case, you're giving prominence

to paintbrushes and a hand and you're looking at the
back of a canvas.
So I don’t think either -- for those reasons,
I don’t think either of the suggestions of the Weir
Farm work.

Now, having said what I don’t think works -

- and Tom, you surprised me.
So, what does work, I think, what's cool -you know, and when you -- you know, I always like cool,
when you get it, like a kid.

Right?

It's cool.

And what's cool is 13, 14, 16 and 17.

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what's scary about 13, 14, 16 and 17 is that there's
four of them and we can easily split up our votes
picking which of the four it should be.

But it should

be one of these four because we have never done this
before.

And it's a -- it's a -- it's a picture within

a picture.

It plays -- it has -- it plays on -- and

you know I like this.
You know, it plays on -- you know, it's a
picture of a picture with the -- with the park in the
background.

It really tells exactly the story you want

to tell about Weir Farm.

This is the story you want to

tell.
And it does it in a very cool way to create a
coin in this series that we've never done before.

we're breaking ground with one of these things and
we're doing a picture within a picture, you know, you
know, kind of a thing.
And I think that the -- that the challenge of
one of these four designs will come from the sculpt,
you know, in the sculpt.

So if this is done -- if Joe

Menna does -- it Joe Menna does what he did with the
loon to this, we've got a winner here, I think.

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You know, it's really going to come down to
the sculpt.

And I think the use of what we do with

proof versus, you know, what we proof, what we -- you
know, what they do with this on the technical side, you
know, the technical design people, that's also going to
be very interesting.

And so, this coin has like major

potential.
I definitely want to compliment the artists
who did these designs for, you know, their creativity
and for coming up with something outside of the box.

think it would be a shame if we go with one of the
others.
As far as -- as far as -- you know, we can't
really make 15 less busy.

We can't really do that

without changing -- materially changing -- not only
changing the design of the coin, but, you know, getting
in there and changing of the design of the landscape
that it's depicting.
So I really don’t think 15 is going to work.
And if we get into a motion to discuss how we're going
to change it, I will be silent because I can't do that.
I can't change the design on 15.

It can't be changed.

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It can't be "cleaned up", quote, unquote, because it's
the landscape.

And that's exactly why it doesn't work

as a quarter coin, right?
So, you know, we're trying to make -- you
know, again, we're trying to make what might be a nice
coin if it were -- and it would look great -- it
certainly will look great on the five ounce.
look great on the big portrait, you know.

It will

But it's not

-- it's not going -- it's not going anywhere on the
quarter.
So okay, so now, which of the four, which of
the four do you go with.
this.

So let's try to hone in on

And, you know, I like -- you know, I guess I

like the asymmetry of 14, you know, because it's off to
the side.
You know, it makes the point that we're
looking -- it makes the point in a pretty easy to see
way on this, you know, that there's a -- that we're
looking at a picture and we're looking at the same
scene.

And the scene is continued, which is very cool.

I mean, so you're going to have a bold picture and then
kind of a faded -- a faded real landscape.

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Now, you could have gone in -- you could have
done the reverse of that too and made the -- and made
the outside bold.

But I think the way that this artist

did it is very -- is very -- is very smart, is very
good.

And I -- so of the four, that's probably -- CT14

is probably my pick.
CT13 is nice.

But, you know, putting the

rectangular frame smack in the middle, it's just too
symmetrical for me, you know, in a kind of a way.
on a small quarter, I'm not sure about it.

And

I still

like it, though.
CT16, you know, it's a blank canvas.

You

know, and it's -- and, you know, it's taking up a piece
of the -- it's taking up a piece of the small -- of the
small quarter with blank.

Could be -- again, could be

interesting with the sculpt.
And on CT17, we lose the -- we lose the
connection between the picture and the picture.

So all

we have here -- we don’t have the picture in a picture.
We have a picture of a picture.

So does that make

sense?
MS. STAFFORD:

Yeah.

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MS. LANNIN:

Yes.

MR. SCARINCI:

Okay.

So in any event, I mean,

my preference of all of these designs -- and I think
what would make the coolest quarter -- would be CT14.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Donald.

Dennis, would

you like to add -MR. URAM:

Just to Don, I would agree after

hearing your thoughts on that.

But I tell you what,

each of these designs have possibility of COTY awards.
It's very creative, very creative.
MS. LANNIN:

And that's it.

Robert, you had something you

wanted to say on this?
MR. HOGE:

Yes.

I have a comment on this.

agree with Donald, that this 14 is probably the
preferable piece of among those four that show the
painting.
However, I think there's a basic problem here
with the differentiation between the actual landscape
in the background and the artwork shown more toward the
foreground.
You see the sharp image in the painting and
yet this is a place known for Impressionism.

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have a contrast because the background, which is all
faded out here, whereas in reality, what we're trying
to convey is the three-dimensional part in the
background and the two-dimensional piece is the
artwork.
What's going on here?

I mean, we're just

fading out the background, which is the farm and
emphasizing in a more three-dimensional way this
painting.

And I think that this is a problem.
I think if you're going to try to

differentiate degrees of accuracy between a background
and a foreground, this probably is going to be lost
through time and circulation too because of that fine
amount of detailed difference between these two
contrasting images.
I think there's a problem here.
idea.

I like the

But I just don’t see quite how this would work.

Maybe Ron could comment a little bit more on that,
showing the realistic background, but here it's all
faded out, which would be the more three-dimensional
thing.
And then, the two-dimensional painting here

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delineated much more sharp.
here?

I mean, what is going on

I do particularly like the idea of showing

something like this.

But I don’t know if it works.

Again, I'd like to comment on number 15.

don’t see why we couldn't eliminate some of the
background on that, contrary to what Donald is saying,
because nature has already changed this place in the
past hundred years.
Let's face it.

These trees were pretty small

back when Weir was painting them and the bushes
probably weren't even there.

So I don’t think that

should necessarily be something that would influence us
against number 15.
I do like image 3a.

I had meant to comment on

this earlier because this was one that I had actually
noted.

And I think that this might be a way for us to

go.
One thing that is not quite so good about this
is it doesn't mention national park for the arts
prominently in the way some of the others do.

But

perhaps that could be featured a little bit maybe in
tiny lettering even on the palette or something like

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that.

Thank you.
MS. LANNIN:

Donald, you wanted to leap in?

MR. SCARINCI:

Yeah.

Can I -- can I -- can I

just say one thing more about -MS. LANNIN:

Turn your mic on.

MR. SCARINCI:
more about 14?

Okay.

Can I just say one thing

And I'll preface by the image of --

from out of Annie Hall, a scene out of Annie Hall where
they're all standing on line and these people are
talking about the movie that they're about to see.
And, you know, this pseudointellectual guy is
explaining what the -- you know, what the artist was
intending.

And then, Marshall McLuhan walks out in

person and says you have no idea about my work.

You

know, this man has no idea what he's saying.
Well, I'll preface with that because I'm about
to -- because I'm about to do what the
pseudointellectual, you know, did.
The reason I think that the artist intended
that the picture is in detail and that the background
is faded is what's being communicated is that we know
Weir Farm from the picture.

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And you know, you know, the beauty of the
landscape is what the artist is depicting in the
picture.

So for most Americans, people like me who

don’t leave New York City except to come here, you
know, what we know comes from the picture.
And that's the coolness of the place.

And

that I think is what the artist was intending.

And I'm

sorry if the artist is online listening to me.

Feel

free to call me an asshole.
MS. LANNIN:
thank you.

Oh, Donald.

Interesting comments.

Okay.

So that's --

Dennis, what would

you like to add?
MR. TUCKER:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

really happy with this portfolio.

There are a lot of

good examples of beautiful draftsmanship here.
know, it's all about art.

I was

You

It's all about nature.

there's a lot to like here.
I'm glad that Heidi mentioned and laid out
some of the criteria that we look at while we're
considering designs.

And I think for many of these,

even the ones that I really like as works of art, the
issues of clarity and size appropriateness, as you

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said, are challenges.
And as I was looking at the 2020 and 2021
designs, I started to look at some of the other coins
that have come out recently and look for areas where I
think they really didn't work because we have detail
layered upon detail, which makes everything get lost at
that little one inch diameter.

And I know we don’t

have examples in front of us.
But if you at some point look at the 2017
Ozark Riverways Corridor, it shows a steel roller mill
that was built in 1894 that visitors can still tour
today.

And in the big three inch silver coin, it's

beautiful.
In photographs, it's beautiful.

You know, in

the sketches, as we look at them in this context in
these meetings, it's a wonderful design.

On the one

inch coin, all you can see is the flour mill and then a
blur of landscape.
So you don’t get the nuance of the stream
giving -- you know, the forest giving way to stream and
within the stream you have rocks.

All it looks like is

-- and it doesn't look bad as a coin.

But all you can

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see is a mill and the feeling of landscape.
And then, on the 2018 Apostle Islands coin,
which has the kayaker in the water in front of the tall
rocks, you know, the water is beautifully detailed and
sculpted.

But there are certain angles where you hold

that coin and the kayaker disappeared and you literally
can't see him in the water.
Take a look at that the next time you have one
in hand and you'll see what I'm talking about.
Everything is nicely rendered.
like a good design.

It looks -- it looks

But as struck at a one inch size,

you lose some of that detail.
So with the Weir Farm portfolio, I think there
are a lot of these designs that would make beautiful
large-size medals that will look good at a three-inch
size.
But they -- unfortunately, this includes,
Donald, a lot of the ones that you like and which I
like as designs.

I don’t think they would work as

coins.
However, I would also draw your attention to - in terms of 13 and 14, Joe Menna sculpted the design

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for the 9/11 Flight 93 congressional gold medal.

think he also designed -- he was the designer and the
engraver.

And it has a boldly sculpted foreground and

then a kind of delicate, almost ghostly background.
So, and I see a lot of that in these designs that we
see with 13 and 14.
So I know at a large medallic size, it can be
done and it can be done very well.

I just worry about

the small canvas that our artists would end up with on
the quarter dollar.
3a is one that I thought would work.
again, it has these challenges.

But

On the left, you've

got these paintbrushes, which are very fine detail,
which are themselves placed atop very fine detail.
What will that look like as a coin?
would be lost.

Those

It looks great at a -- you know, blown

up and thrown onto a screen or looked at six or seven
inches on a piece of paper.

But I'm afraid that those

would be lost.
I'm sorry.

Actually three I think would be

more effect than 3a because, as Donald said, you've got
that prominence of a design element, the hand in this

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case.

So you don’t have detail layered upon detail.
Four is a nice scene of Weir Studio.

But it

doesn't convey the active participatory artistic
expression that's so much a part of Weir Farm.

Number

five is actually one -- I don’t think anyone else has
really discussed this much.

But it might appear

simplistic at first glance.
But I think it's coinable and it captures all
of the elements of this concept of plein air painting
that we've discussed in the past.

And we also get a

good view of the stone walls and the gardens.
Ten and 11 are too simplistic.

For 12, at the

size of a quarter and really as sketched, this artist
could be anywhere.

She could be working at a studio.

It says nothing about the farm.
And 15 is actually the one that I was drawn to
the most as I looked at this portfolio.

I think it

gets across the concept of Weir Farm without explicitly
showing an artist painting at an easel.
You know, you have this -- you have the
painter's palette.
plein air painting.

That communicates the concept of
You have the lettering.

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Heidi, I agree.

You don’t want to hit the

viewer over the head with text.

But I think in this

case, it strengthens the design and pulls it together.
National Park for the Arts, it tells you what you're
looking at and it does so with a -- I like the curves
of the palette.
It's not a -- it's not the right angles of a
canvas or an easel.

So I think this makes a good

connection between the outdoors and the arts and then
the text kind of drives it home just in case you didn't
get the message.
Eighteen, I think I agree with my colleagues.
I have nothing that would add to their comments
already.
Donald, 14 I think would make a wonderful
medal and I know that the Philadelphia Mint engravers
could work magic with that.

I just worry about the

size of a quarter dollar.
MR. SCARINCI:
MS. LANNIN:

Can I comment?

Can I --

Yes, Donald.

MR. SCARINCI:

No, you're absolutely right.

If you look at it as a landscape on a landscape.

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you're right if you look at it as a landscape on a
landscape.

But it's not a landscape on a landscape.

It's an object on a landscape.
is the object.

The painting

So the foreground is the painting.

And

you will need a loop if you want to look at the
painting.

But the foregoing is the painting.

So the

prominent feature of this design is the thing -- the
frame and what's in the frame.

You know, if you look

at it what way.
And the second thing, to address something Bob
had said, is while, again -- again, I hate to -- I hate
to like speak for the artist, but -- who I don’t know.
But if -- but what's being communicated here,
you know, as well is while the landscape may change,
because Bob is right, the landscape has changed in a
hundred years.
change again.

And a hundred years from now, it'll
And 200 years, it will change even more

dramatically.
While the landscape may change, what has -the art that has been conceived and inspired and has
frozen in time that landscape will always be there,
will be there forever.

This painting in the foreground

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will last forever, while the landscape may change.

-MS. LANNIN:

There you go.

Erik?

MR. JANSEN:

This was the hardest --

MS. LANNIN:

Turn your mic on, please.

MR. JANSEN:

Is that better?

MS. LANNIN:

I don’t know.

MR. JANSEN:

On?

Thank

you.

MR. SCARINCI:

If it's glowing, it's on.

MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. JANSEN:

Okay.

This was the hardest

collection of the six which we received, in my opinion,
because there is -- there's some lovely art here.

It's

just none of it's compelling when it's reduced to a
quarter size drawing.
I just find almost every choice in here I want
to eliminate because it's too noisy, there's not enough
negative space, there are unattractive features in the
field.
So I'm going to try to focus us here on one
that will work.

And I'm going to echo Donald's

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thoughts.

I'm voting for 14.

I think the artist

probably did 13 first because he enjoyed the symmetry
of that.
MS. LANNIN:

Or she.

MR. JANSEN:

Or she, or them.

But I think the

artist ended up on 14 because this is not a picture on
metal.

This is actually a symbol and the symbol is the

easel and the artist's effort.
I would prefer a design that has some energy
to it, which would invite a hand and a brush.

But the

hands and the brushes in this set don’t work, in my
opinion, on a one inch coin.
I go to 14 with the -- with the begging of the
sculptor to truly give us an off-center easel with a
drawing on it.

There's so much noise there.

I wish

they could be simplified.
And then, the backdrop -- and Dennis brings
out the example of the Pennsylvania 9/11 as the way to
just demote the unimportant backdrop.
this is somewhat off-putting.

The asymmetry of

But the symbolic of the

easel and the piece of art I think is the essence of
this design.

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So I'm going to try to focus the voting.

And

just as a comment, number 16 looks like nihilism at
Weir Farm, not Impressionism.

So I'm voting for 14 and

the rest of the comments stand on the record.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Erik.

add just a little bit here.

I'm going to

I too happen to like 14.

I love the asymmetry of it.
It is a snapshot, as Heidi was saying, of just
that particular moment through that particular artist's
eyes.

As long as we can get the easel and the rim of

the canvas to pop, I think that that's ideal.
MR. SCARINCI:
MS. LANNIN:

Yes.

The only thing that I wish it had

was saying national park for the arts somewhere.
originally not from the East Coast.

I'm

And so, I look and

say Weir Farm, what do they grow?
You know, that's sort of a Midwestern, you
know, view of something, whereas my second choice would
be number 15 because the palette has national park for
the arts on it.

And that pretty much describes to me

what happens there.
But in terms of design, I really do like

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number 14.

So that is all I have to say about this

entire series.

Thank you.

Jeanne, you'd like to say

something?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I have a question.

would like to know, after listening to all of us
discuss these designs, Linda, how do you still feel
about your preferences and also about what seems to be
ours?
MS. COOK:

Thank you.

Are you hearing me

okay?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. COOK:

Okay.

Yes.

Great.

Some of the points

obviously that you rose are the same that we grappled
with.

Trying to capture, again, this idea that we are

not a farm.
Okay, we don’t have animals or we're not -you know, we're not known for our farming.

But farm in

the title conjures up one thing in people's mind.

But

we're really about the arts.
We too really looked at, you know, the quality
of the rendering, how artistic could it be.
to get away from these busy woods.

And trying

Yes, we could get

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into what period was Weir there, how forested or
deforested was the landscape, what did he see when he
was there.
But then, you have to marry that with what is
the visitor seeing and what's their personal connection
to it being an artistic setting as well.

All that

said, you know, focusing in on your choice, for your
design for 3a -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. COOK:

Yes, I did.

Just for example, trying to make

the trees -- you know, do we grapple with is this a
real scene that was painted or are these just trees
that are really greatly depicted on the coin versus
what is a real -- something real that the visitor could
take and look at the coin and see the location.
So for example we have a number of younger
employees at the park.

And the first thing that they

liked was number one because they said, oh, look, you
can take the coin and look and you can see this the
minute you get in the park.
Now, we don’t think that this is -- you know,
again, this empty canvas just doesn't work for us and,

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you know, that design doesn't work for U.S.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. COOK:

Right.

But it is trying to figure out how

do we get through the wooded scenes.

So going to 14 or

15, you know, that you honed in on, yes, we love that
it cuts the side of the coin.
We love that it's off-kilter.

It has some,

you know, design quality to it and it looks like a
painting and that's what we're about.

But gosh, it

sure is busy.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. COOK:

Yes.

And all those trees, you know,

we're really not in the tree business.

We do -- are

constantly taking down trees to keep these views up.
So to see the Weir House completely engulfed in trees
just doesn't do anything.

It doesn't do anything for

the resource as a recognizable location.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
comments very much.

No.

So that's --

I appreciate your

One question I have for 3a, if I

could go back to that, or we could go back to that,
because of the complications with the brushes and the
hands being overlaying the walls, if -- and I don’t

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like to redesign these things.
But for me, this is so powerful.

It has, for

me, the stone walls, which I think is so important to
Connecticut and New England.

What if that palette was

just the palette and we had the national park for the
arts in that palette?
MS. COOK:

Would that work for you?

I think a number of things could

work on a number of these designs.

So I'll just put

out there palettes are kind of esoteric.

I don’t know

if the average person knows that that shape is a
palette.
And that was the same case with -- 15, thank
you.

You know, it looks kind of like -- especially at

the coin size, which you're the experts it, it just
kind of looks -- I mean, this has the -- it looks -they just look kind of loopy.
them aren't this shape.

You know, and some of

Some of them are square.

Palettes can be all kinds of different shapes.
So national park for the arts is important to
us because it gets us out of the farm business.
key for us.
for us.

That's

And something to do with painting is key

You know, these trees aren't right.

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Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Public Meeting (06/12/18)
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even really know if this exact scene is right.
And Vanessa knows.

We've gone back and forth

on this a number of times.

There are elements in there

that are completely right.

Okay.

So rock and the

barway, which is the fence with the posts on it, the
stone wall.

The canopy isn't quite right.

I don’t know what this one does for us.

don’t know what a grouping of trees in the background
that could be anywhere really does for us.

It has no

discernible, identifiable notion of artwork, other than
this kind of loopy palette at the bottom which I would
say the average person would not know what that is.
I don’t know that I've really honed this down
any better.

But again, the ones with the paintings

that paintings that cut the edge, you know, I have all
the scoresheets with me of all the people that we asked
to weigh in, like which ones do they like.

This has --

you know, this speaks art.
But what's on that palette or what's on that
canvas is really -- that's just going to look like
blurry -- well, I don’t know.
expertise.

This isn't my area of

But I don’t know that this serves us to

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have all this vegetation hiding something.
MS. STAFFORD:

So just to make sure we make

sure you understand, there is some latitude -MS. COOK:

Yes.

MS. STAFFORD:

-- for discussion to take place

here today for modifications to these designs to be
sent back.
And we would ensure that that artist worked
very closely with our team in Philadelphia, as well as
with you in executing an iteration that meant the
requests of whether it's this committee or the CFA
should this be one that is recommended to move forward.
So it is not out of the realm of possibility
that if that's the stumbling block, there could be
discussions held about that.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, April.

Heidi, you

wanted to say something, and then Erik wanted to
comment.
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you.

After hearing all

of the comments about this packet, I'm going to say
something I almost never say.
I want to formally request that we go back

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again because design 14 has such wonderful potential,
if the scene were a different scene.
design by committee.

And I don’t like

I don’t want to sit here and

start how this could be.
A lot of it is going to depend on the
sculpting.

The sculptor has a choice.

They can make

the background very sharp and the painting like very
loose and like brush strokes or the painting could be
incused line.

There's a lot of choices there that the

artist could do.
But as far as the design itself, I think just
keeping the palette the way it is and the concept the
way it is and then just pick a different scene that's
more clear and more size appropriate.
Otherwise, we're going to be picking something
that is a second choice.

And I would rather go with

something that's spectacular.

And this has the

potential to be super creative and super interesting.
It'll work on the large piece as well as the small
piece, if we have a clearer landscape.
So I'm formally requesting that please, please
can we go back with this design and add a more clear

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landscape and then look at it again?
MS. COOK:

Could I -- could I add to that,

that the phraseology national park for the arts be
incorporated as well?

Because I think that helps it

make sense.
MS. WASTWEET:
the arts.
design.
it.

I really do.

I like the phrasing park for
It may or may not fit on this

I think this design says that without saying

So if it does or doesn't, I'm fine either way.

can try it absolutely.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Two more comments.

Erik

was first, and then Donald.
MR. JANSEN:
said, Heidi.

I agree with everything you just

I was going to say the same thing.

MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. SCARINCI:
vote for 14.

Thank you, Erik.

Donald?

If people agree with 14, then

I would make a motion to, after we vote,

if people like it, to go back to the artist with -have the Mint and the Parks people go back to the
artist to discuss the specific detail, design changes
that, you know, they thing could be made with, you
know, preference -- you know, with priority given to

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the vision of the artist and the inclusion of the
artist because I think what the artist has done here is
created a work of art.
And I don’t want to have external people,
including us, you know, as great as we all are, right,
you know, I certainly don’t want us, any of us to
insert our vision for the vision of the artist.
You know, and I think certainly discussing the
specifics of what's being depicted, that's perfectly
appropriate and they can do that without us.
MS. WASTWEET:
and appreciate that.
changes.

I understand what you're saying

I would not vote for this without

So that's why I'm proposing a motion rather

than a vote -MS. LANNIN:

So I --

MS. WASTWEET:

-- a motion to go back and then

look at these again because there are many different
directions it could go.

And I think it would benefit

from a second review by our committee.
MR. JANSEN:

This design or the entire set,

Heidi?
MS. WASTWEET:

Just this 13, 14.

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MR. JANSEN:

Okay.

Yeah.

would only add the following comment.

Yeah.

And I

Knowing that

this set passes by the CFA as well and they've often
gone for architectural solutions where we haven't -and in fact, the example you cited of the stream and
the building was not this committee's choice.
the CFA's choice.

And I think much is lost.

It was
It's hard

to know if that's a stream or a road or what that is in
that design.
But my point is I think we may end up with a
harmonious decision from them as well if we were to
merely take -- ask the artist to take another look at
the palette on 14 or, for that matter, in 13 and give
us a negative space and give us an image which may make
the constituency a little happier as well.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Erik.

So I believe

that the correct thing for us to do is to vote now and
then we can make a motion afterwards.
MR. HOGE:

Yes.

Robert?

I'd like to ask Ms. Cook, if

I may, what were the specific difficulties or
objections with numbers three and four, maybe apart
from the disembodied thumb that seems to just come up

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out of the palette there?
Were these not accurate renditions of the
landscape in terms of the trees or what exactly -MR. SCARINCI:
MR. HOGE:

Three and 3a.

MS. LANNIN:
MS. COOK:

Do you mean three and 3a?

Yeah.

Excuse me, yes.

Okay.

So in three, a number of you have

already brought up this idea of the blank canvas
hogging up or taking up a lot of the space.
So as we looked at this, this was like a
quarter of the coin would be devoted to blank space.
And that seemed like a waste to us.

I will -- so that

was one issue there.
This -- you know, this did figure as
desirable, you know -- desirable, amongst our -amongst -- in our minds, a better choice.

It didn't

have national park for the arts.
Again, it's -- you know, we love this artist.
We loved this artist's trees.

Like we liked number

four because of the artistic quality.

But it's not a

scene that you can go to in the park necessarily.
It's not -- so the park is recognized for 200

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painting sites where you actually go and look at the
location and compare it to a work of art, just as part
of our mission is to reunite works of art to the park
that depict these locations.
MR. HOGE:

So this is --

MS. COOK:

So we can live at this micro level.

This is not -- it has a generic quality.
all the pieces.

Yes, it has

It's got a great stone wall and it's

got beautifully rendered trees.
anywhere in the park.

But it could really be

So it makes us generic.

And as we've mentioned before, you know, kind
of striving to not be a farm, striving to be a park
dedicated to art, which in itself is, you know, not the
typical depiction of what national parks are.

We don’t

know that this really sets us apart or defines our best
qualities.
MR. HOGE:

I noticed --

MS. COOK:

But we really liked this artist.

The artistic abilities are endearing.
MR. HOGE:

Yeah, I like these too.

But that

was my question, just to see if this is sufficiently
accurate.

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MS. COOK:

Right.

MR. HOGE:

It seems to me as though perhaps

national park for the arts could have been put in place
of the blank canvas in number three.
But something about these palettes just
doesn't work as far as I'm concerned.

I mean, there's

a thumb sticking out of that hole and there's no hand
there to hold that.
MS. COOK:

Right.

MR. HOGE:

Something is wrong with the

MS. COOK:

Right.

palette.
Palettes are -- they're

almost a bygone era, a notion that you work with a -MR. HOGE:
there?

Yeah, and what's with the brushes

I mean, they're just sort of in space flying

out of the palette with the disembodied thumb.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Can I -- can I just

defend this artist a little bit?

If you're a painter,

and I was at one time, that's exactly what you do.
You hold the palette.

Your hand is underneath

the palette and in your fingers the brushes are being
held.

So this is pretty accurate.

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MR. HOGE:

But those brushes look like they go

toward the back of the hand.
MR. SCARINCI:

Well, I think honestly, the

blank palette -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

They do.

They

go to the back of the hand.
MR. HOGE:

What holds them?

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. JANSEN:

Yeah.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. JANSEN:

Yeah.

It's like this.

It's behind it.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. JANSEN:

Your hand.

You're behind it.

-- so you can press and mix the

colors.
MR. HOGE:

No, but they look like they're

going like this.
MR. JANSEN:

To defend the artist here, and

perhaps I'll put an idea out there that might make it
more, I'm sorry, palatable.
If the actual easel frame were slightly more - just cantered off in perspective and if the corner
dipped below the palette's curvy edge, it wouldn't feel

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so aggressive in its dominance of that quartile.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

I agree.

I think we should

distribute the scoring sheets and make our selections.
Okay.

While we're doing that, April, would you like to

talk about the next one, please?
So this is a procedural question.
left.

April just

If we're going to change 14, should we vote at

all?
(Cross-talk)
MS. LANNIN:

Before we vote --

MS. WASTWEET:

I would like to make a -- I

would like to make a motion to send the packet back for
redesign, focusing on design -MS. LANNIN:

Fourteen?

MS. WASTWEET:

-- 13, 14, with a more

clarified landscape and the possible addition of text
to be reviewed again in the future.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. SCARINCI:

Is there a second?

At what point can I make -- see

if I can make an amendment to that?
MS. LANNIN:

Oh, boy.

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MR. SCARINCI:

Do we need to -- do we need to

MS. WASTWEET:

I think so.

MR. SCARINCI:

Because I don’t really feel the

see it?

need to see it again.
MS. WASTWEET:

I feel the need to see it.

MR. SCARINCI:

You do?

MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

MS. STAFFORD:

We're happy to bring it back.

The one request that we would have is in addition to
the refinements for the particular designs that you
direct us to, if there are any strong preferences the
liaison still has after hearing all of the discussion
between this and the CFA, we would like to include
those as well, just for the record and for further
discussion.
MS. WASTWEET:

I'm happy to modify my motion

to I'll generalize my statement.

My motion is to

request a redesign of the packet or what is the correct
phrase?
MS. STAFFORD:

Rework the designs based on the

committee's feedback and bring it to you again in the

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very near future.
MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:

Perfect.

Is there a second?

Erik.

All

those in favor of Heidi's motion, say aye.
(Chorus of ayes.)
MS. LANNIN:
passes.

Those opposed?

The motion

Tom, I assume you raised your hand and I just

couldn't see you.
MR. URAM:

There we go.

MS. LANNIN:

All right.

Thank you very much.

On to the next one.
MARSH-BILLINGS-ROCKEFELLER NATIONAL HISTORICAL PARK
MS. STAFFORD:

Marsh-Billings-Rockefeller

National Historical Park in Vermont will be the next
site that we discuss.

And I just want to note for you,

Madam Chair, our liaison I believe needs to leave at
noon in order to catch a flight.

So making sure we

leverage the benefit of our counsel, I just wanted to
provide that information to you.
Background information about this site,
nestled among the rolling hills and pastures of Eastern
Central Vermont, the Marsh-Billings-Rockefeller

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National Historical Park is the only national park that
tells the story of conversation history and the
evolving nature of land stewardship in America.
The boyhood home of George Perkins Marsh, one
of America's first conservationists, and later the home
of Frederick Billings, a conservationist and pioneer in
reforestation and scientific farm management, the
property was given to the American people by its most
recent owners, Laurance S. and Mary French Rockefeller.
The park's forest is one of the oldest
scientifically managed forests in the U.S.

In walking

the park's carriage roads and trails, visitors can see
examples of one of the earliest practices of
reforestation dating back to the 1870s alongside more
modern approaches to hardwood management.
The mansion is maintained as a historic museum
to interpret the life and legacies of the generations
of families that have called this place home.
Our liaison's preferences can be seen here.
It is design three, seen on the left, and design eight.
Here with us today is our liaison and deputy
superintendent of Marsh-Billings-Rockefeller National

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Historical Park, Christina Marts.
for joining us.

Would you like to say a few words?

MS. MARTS:
me.

Christina, thank you

Absolutely.

Thank you for having

It's just a pleasure to be here.

And like my

colleague, I'd also just like to take a moment to thank
the staff at the Mint for all of their wonderful work
in stepping us through this process and to this
committee for your early input in the conceptual phase
of the design and its focus.
We are very excited with the portfolio that
was presented to us for the quarter.

Marsh-Billings-

Rockefeller is a small park about a very big idea,
about the idea of stewardship of almost two centuries
of the legacies of families taking care of the land and
passing it down from one generation to the next in that
commitment of caring for a place.
It is unique within the Park Service.
not a wilderness place.

It's

It's not a set historic site.

But it's about hands on the land, that interaction of
people and nature over time.
So we're very thrilled with some of the
artists' approach and really diving deep into looking

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at the conceptual realization of that thematic theme
that the park represents.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you very much.

MS. STAFFORD:

April?

Moving through the designs,

we'll start with design one and 1a depict the planting
of a sugar maple sapling representing the regeneration
and conservation of the forests.
In the background, design one includes the
Marsh-Billings-Rockefeller Mansion on a hill, while
design 1a, seen here, portrays a grassy hillside with
the Green Mountains in the background.
Design two features branches of a Norway
spruce and a sugar maple with seeds representing the
site's present and the hope for its future.

The

inscription "People Taking Care of Places" illustrates
the commitment to conservation and stewardship
demonstrated by the Marsh, Billings and Rockefeller
families.
Design three depicts a sugar maple seedling
passing from the hands of one generation to the next.
This simple gesture is emblematic of the stewardship
required to conserve our shared natural resources for

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the enjoyment of future generations.

And again, this

is our site liaison's first preference.
Design four features branches of a Norway
spruce with the seeds being released from the cones,
symbolically continuing the ideas of George Marsh and
Frederick Billings in conservation and sustainability.
The inscription "Legacy of Conversation" completes the
design.
Design five illustrates the concept of
conversation in the cycle of planting and harvesting.
Here a Norway spruce seedling is shown against the
backdrop of coarse logged spruce.

The inscription

"Land Stewardship" is included.
Design six recalls a few of the thousands of
Norway spruce seedlings planted by Frederick Billings
following the inspiration of George Marsh.

The

planting was an effort to restore the deforested lands
around the home that resulted in erosion and loss of
topsoil.

The inscription "Future Forest" is at the top

of the design.
Design seven portrays the carriage trails
cutting through the planted Norway spruce forests at

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the park.

It evokes the ideas of conservation,

stewardship and human access, inviting viewers to
imagine themselves entering the forest and experiencing
the feeling of being sheltered by the trees.
Design eight, our liaison's second preference,
depicts a young girl completing the planting of a
Norway spruce seedling near an established tree,
continuing the lifecycle of the forest.
The child represents the conservationist
seeking to maintain a sustainable forest for future
enjoyment and education.

This design includes the

inscription "Land Stewardship".
Design nine features a young oak seedling next
to a maple and a Norway spruce.

The seedlings are a

part of the environment that ensures the continuing
health of the forest, representing 150 years of
environmental conservation and land stewardship
throughout the park.
Design 10 depicts modern logging and forest
management in autumn using a horse logging method, one
of several methods of logging used within the park.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, April.

Heidi, would

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you like to begin?
MS. WASTWEET:

A lot of these designs I think

look really great on a website, on brochures, on
posters of the park but not on a quarter.

The two

designs that I think would work on a quarter are number
two and number four.
Number two I think is my preference.
that needs to be said.
this.

It's all

It's not more complicated than

This says a lot in a very simple way.

There's

really beautiful textures here that will read well on a
quarter and on the larger silver piece.

There's lots

of negative space, which gives clarity to the image.
It's not too literal.
I do prefer the phrase "land stewardship" over
"people taking care of places".

But that's a really

easy modification that doesn't impact the artwork.

think this is simple and beautiful and knocks it out of
the park.

And I'll just leave it at that.
MS. LANNIN:

Tom, are you with us?

Would you

like to speak next, please?
MR. SCARINCI:
MS. LANNIN:

He's on mute, I think.

Are you -- Tom, unmute?

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Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Public Meeting (06/12/18)
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you there?
MR. URAM:

Yeah.

I hit the wrong button.

Sorry about that.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. URAM:

Okay.

Relatively short on this one

regarding I looked at the designs and I would say that
I definitely don’t want number one because I want to
see another building.
But I do like the idea of number three with
the hands and I also like the number eight as well.
And I lean a little bit more towards eight because of
the person being there and actually planting.

understand three.
So I do like the choices.

But I also like the

idea that that one says land stewardship.

That's it.

Thank you.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Thank you very much.

Robert?
MR. HOGE:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I don’t

think we'd have a problem really very much with any of
these designs.

They're very attractive and they do

convey the message.

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Probably my least favorite would be number 10
because this is simply saying 19th century activity,
you know, with the horse.

I like the committee's

selection, the number three and number eight.
Number eight, with land stewardship and the
young child, the tiny tree and the large tree together
I think really kind of covers time.
does a nice job there.
drawn.

And I think it

Number three is especially well

But you know, how many shades of gray do we

want on a coin?

Let's worry on that.

Number two is perhaps stylistically the most
attractive of these designs.

Number seven I like

because of the human pathway through the forest and
this is not completely evidently a replanted forest.
But it kind of gives the idea that it could be.
So I'm pleased with this portfolio in general
and I probably would support the committee's
preferences in this case.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Robert.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Jeanne?

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I too was pleased with this portfolio.

I think it was

well done.

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I like number two and number four because of
its simplicity.

I have to agree with Heidi.

I think

this would make a beautiful, beautiful coin because we
do have negative space.

We have, you know, the

seedlings of the parent trees.
Also I think that number five is interesting,
interesting in that it has the cut lumber, the cut
trees and then the seedling and land stewardship.
is a little bit more abstracted.

This

Perhaps some people

wouldn't understand that these were logged trees.

But

I do think that of all of them, those three are my
choices.
Number eight I think is a little too involved
with too much information.

I think the child is great.

But I don’t know that that's going to coin up as a
child, just as a person.

And perhaps that's okay.

that's all I have to say.
MS. LANNIN:

right coin.
actually.

Thank you.

Thank you, Jeanne.

MR. SCARINCI:

Heidi is right.

Donald?
Two is the

I mean, this is a pretty easy pick

Two is -- two is the best design here.

communicates what you want to communicate.

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If the people from -- if they want to change
it to land stewardship because they like that slogan
better, it doesn't matter what the slogan is.
design will look beautiful on a quarter.
right size.

But the

It's the

And for purposes of the Parks people with

their preference of three and eight, eight just -again, you know, is the focus -- is the focus on nature
or the person.
There's kind of a lost focus on eight and
there's no need for a human being to be depicted.

And

on three, it's just the three hands just doesn't work.
So overall though, by the way, as negative as
I was at the last meeting about what was presented to
us, I am as positive this meeting about all of the good
designs in all of the things that we're looking at
today.

As a group, whatever happened is great.
MS. LANNIN:

you.

Put that in bold, please.

Thank

Dennis?
MR. TUCKER:

I apologize.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Donald,

I need to disagree with you on that.

want to remind our committee that back in October 2017,
when we had our telephonic meeting about these coin

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designs, for Marsh-Billings-Rockefeller, land
stewardship was the dominant theme of our conversation.
The important focus for this park, as our
liaison has pointed out, is on mankind's management of
nature.

This is not a protected wilderness.

I wrote

that in my notes and you mentioned that as you were
speaking.

It's about deliberately and carefully

planned human control of natural resources.
So when you ask, well, do we really need to
show a human, yes, we need to show a human.
show a human and nature.

We need to

So to me, for that reason,

the following designs are completely out because they
lack the human elephant -- elephant -- the human
element.
MS. LANNIN:

That too.

MR. TUCKER:

They also lack an elephant.

Two,

four, six, seven and nine I would disregard completely.
Number five, to a lesser degree, it does show cut logs.
So I think that talks a bit to the subject of human
management.
And two tries to make the connection using the
text though, Heidi.

I think it -- you know, these

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designs that only show natural elements, they could be
anywhere.

They could be any sort of forest or natural

environment.

Bob, design seven, it does show

deliberate human access to nature with the carriage
trails.

But I don’t think that strongly evokes the

concept of deliberate, planned management of nature.
So for me, that left one and 1a, three, eight
and 10.

I think one and 1a make the best use off the

small, one-inch canvas of a quarter dollar.
And while the Marsh-Billings-Rockefeller
Mansion is important to the park, in our earlier
discussion in October, we leaned toward it not really
being crucial to that idea of human management of
nature.
For that reason, I favor 1a as the strongest
design in this portfolio.

I think three has a very

visually pleasing bit of symbolism with the managed
land and trees being passed down from generation to
generation.
If this could be effectively translated into
sculpture, then this would be one that I support as
well.

But I do wonder if it relies too much on shading

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to get its artistry across.
Number eight, like 1a, I think it does
illustrate that idea of direct human management of
nature and it throws in the bonus of a symbolic
lifecycle.

You know, you've got the -- you've got the

seedling and then you've got a mature Norway spruce
there.
I don’t think that the girl is too small or
overly detailed for the size of a quarter.
that the size of that figure would work.

I think

We've seen

that in the Ellis Island coin I think would be a
comparable design.
I struggle with the words land stewardship.
appreciate what the text is doing and how it adds to
the communication of this design.

But I wonder if it

would be a stronger contender if those words were
absent.

What the words get across is already being

shown symbolically with the girl and her work in the
soil.
And Ron, I don’t know, I think the lettering
on a textured background might be a technical
challenge.

Maybe not.

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MR. HARRIGAL:

In this case, it's not going to

be a lot of relief there.

Where you have trouble is

where you have the change in relief height and then the
letters look kind of odd because, you know, you have to
put draft on them.

So they get wider and narrower.

it's a lot of fudging we have to do in the sculpt to do
that.

But on this, it's pretty much just a marble flat

plain there.

So we'll be okay with that.

MR. TUCKER:

Okay.

design as it stands then.

So I'm okay with the

I wanted to -- if I could, I

want to speak a moment about number 10.
And this is kind of a sidebar.

But I think

it'll be a valuable discussion for our artists going
forward.

It does show human management of the land and

resources of the park.

But it just doesn't get the

horse right.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

That's correct.

That's

correct.
MR. TUCKER:

And I grew up -- I grew up -- and

Jeanne, I expected you to comment on this, being an
animal person.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I didn't comment on it

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because there was nothing good I could say about it.
MR. TUCKER:
MR. HOGE:

Okay.

I --

It looks like a titanoclear (ph).

MR. TUCKER:

I grew up --

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Just -- excuse me.

this horse were alive, it would be dead.
MR. HOGE:

It's a fossil.

MR. TUCKER:
York.

I grew up around horses in New

So when I looked at this horse, it just looked

off to me on several points.
So I called my mom and my sister.
horse experts.

They're my

I think between the two of them, they

have about 80 years of experience breeding, raising,
training, riding horses.

And I'll just tell you some

of the feedback they gave me.
They said that a horse's nostrils are usually
bigger for more air intake.

The jaw looks wrong.

direct quote, "The lower lip normally has just that, a
lip with some pouting fat on the bottom."
Regarding the logging harness, it seems like
the horizontal bar running behind the horse is too
close to the back legs, inhibiting normal leg movement.

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Also the connections of the straps look wrong.
The horse's front left leg looks off.

looks bowed in at the joint and then bowed out under
the joint.

The horse's mane is uneven, much longer on

the left side than on the right.
So now I will say that even if this horse were
perfectly rendered, I don’t think that the design
communicates what we're trying to communicate with this
coin.
But I wanted to go over some of these apparent
flaws because I think it's a good lesson for our
artists when they submit proposals to us.

You're going

to be held to a high standard for artistry.

technical details -MS. LANNIN:

Dennis' mom.

MR. TUCKER:

This is my mom speaking.

was an artist as well.

And she

If technical details appear to

be inaccurate, if perspective is off, if the
musculature is wrong, the physical form isn't true to
life, then your concept might have merit, but it could
lose some points in our voting and our ranking or be
dismissed outright.

So that's why I wanted to spend so

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much time on the horse.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Dennis.

MR. SCARINCI:
say.

I know what Erik's going to

He's going to say -- he's going to start by

saying stop beating a dead horse.
(Laughter.)
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Puns are done.

MR. JANSEN:

I was actually looking for a play

on horse of a different color.

Erik?

But I didn't find one.

I see I have a reputation problem.
MR. URAM:

This -- (cross-talk) -- does not

justify.
MR. JANSEN:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

one of the more fun sets to work with.

This was

And I think

it's because whether through artists commissioned or
the idea, we just got a number of lovely symbols to
play with.

We've got negative space.

I mean, you just

-- I just feel like I'm dancing through candy here.

that's really lovely.
I'm going to try to focus us.

I think the

bingo is five and the reason I think the bingo is five
is between the simplicity of the logs, which I'm going

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to approach negative space and the literal negative
space on the bottom and perhaps it's too abstract.

But

you've got the front end of the young plant and the
back end of harvesting the production of the land.

think you have the full cycle of the mission here.
I can't remember seeing logs on a coin.

Two

and four to me could be any natural mission out there.
And so, they miss the concept that stewardship is not
just a presence, but in fact a reciprocal harvest and
reinvestment.

So five does that for me.

Number three, I certainly respect that.

And

it's not the first time we've seen an artistic coin of
the idea of handing off the young sapling.

One, as I

mentioned, back to the artists, please, please, please
kick your habit of using grayscale on your art to us.
Just plain stop, please, because that makes
this image very deceptive in terms of what it will look
like in sculpt as opposed to a greyscale world.
just a plea to the artists.

That's

Please stop doing that.

think it's detractive, if that's a word.
I'm not sure the sculptor will capture the
nuance here of the receiving hands being small and

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young and the giving hands being more mature.
that was the intention of the art.

I think

That will disappear

on the quarters coin and it will just be some hands
holding a bush.
about more.

So I'm on number five.

But I don’t see any point in it.

MS. LANNIN:
number of these.
about five.

We could talk

Thank you, Erik.

I liked a

I have to say I never really thought

I do like number two for the negative

space.
With the people taking care of places, that
could be replaced by legacy of conservation or land
stewardship.

I don’t dislike number three, which was

the liaison's preference.

I think that -- how do you

think that would sculpt, Ron?
MR. HARRIGAL:

Well, you know, Heidi has

mentioned on previous occasions sculpting in like a 45
angle and that type of thing and especially hands.

The

thumb on the adult hand in the back would be very
difficult to pull off.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. HARRIGAL:
work.

I mean, hands in perspective

But hands in like, you know, a three-quarter

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profile, in that they look squat.

They look short.

This is going to be a challenge with the hands -MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. HARRIGAL: -- the way they're depicted
there.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay, and I do like -- I do like

number eight because I think it hits everything that
the park stands for.

I'm not a left-handed person.

So I just kind of look at the way that she's
holding the spade or the trowel or whatever it is to
plant that.

But I think that there's a lot of nice

negative space in there.
It does say land stewardship and it's quite
obvious that she's replenishing and restoring a forest.
So those would be my comments.
anything else?

Anybody want to add

Heidi?

MS. WASTWEET:

I want to thank Dennis for

reminding us of our last comments about this when we
were inputting the narrative.

That was helpful.

And I

fully agree with what you were saying about the human
element and the stewardship being important.
But that idea versus the execution is what

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holds me back and keeps me on the simple design of
number two.

I want to look at design number eight.

This has a lot of potential.

But what we've got here

is it looks like someone had someone pose, took a
snapshot -MR. SCARINCI:

Yeah.

MS. WASTWEET:

-- and then drew that.

Imagine

for a minute if Donald De Lue had designed this, what
would that look like.
The face here would be a proper profile
instead of this slightly away, confusing look.
hair would be a beautiful design, flowing down.

The
The

girl would be curved and she would encompass that
circle and then she would be cradling the sapling.
It would be gorgeous.
and unartistic.

But this is just stiff

And even though it hits the marks of

what we said in our comments towards the narrative in
the beginning, the execution isn't there and I can't
support that because I know what it could be and it's
not.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
your comment, Heidi?

And can I just add to

I don’t think, even though this

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is a left-handed person, I don’t believe that left arm
is correctly executed.
MS. WASTWEET:

I agree.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. SCARINCI:

It's just not right.

No, it's left.

(Laughter.)
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

It's way out left.

But

if you were actually using a trowel, your hand would be
in a different position than it is here.
MS. LANNIN:

Donald?

MR. SCARINCI:
best coin.

I just like two.

Two makes the

But Dennis brings up a good point, I mean,

because we're giving the artists particular instruction
when we go through this process by doing the narrative.
Even though I was not on that call, I probably would
have said the same thing in terms of what the
importance of the park is.
So if you had to pick a coin with the human
element, as Dennis -- as Dennis, you know, pointed out,
you would -- I think the best one is 1a.

I discounted

it because I think two was a no-brainer from the point
of view of what makes the prettiest coin.

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So if we're going to go with the prettiest
coin, it's two.

If we're going to -- you know, if

we're going to defer to our own instructions to the
artist, I would say it's 1a.

And that's how I would

focus, you know, the debate.
MS. STAFFORD:

Designs one and 1a were also

our liaison's third and fourth choice for preferences.
MS. LANNIN:

Ron, any comments about 1a?

Ron,

any comments about 1a?
MR. HARRIGAL:

No.

I mean, the hands would be

easy to do on this one because, you know, you can see
the length of the fingers and you can actually get the
grip on the left hand there.
The mountains in the back would be a
silhouette, you know, with low relief.

Nice peripheral

on the upper part of the image, very well-silhouetted
leaves, very recognizable.

So this one would sculpt

very well.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Thank you very much.

Donald?
MR. SCARINCI:

I just love -- I love Ron.

mean, the artists who are on the phone, the hands are

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never easy to do.

They're a pain in the ass, I mean,

and they're hard to do.
And, you know, Eugene Daub just did a medal
for the Jewish American Hall of Fame depicting hands,
which are -- it's just amazing.
I mean, you know, our sculptors, you know, at
the U.S. Mint can do hands very well.
look easy.

But it's not easy.

But it's a challenge.

So they make it

And they can do it.

Hands are a challenge.

Hands

are like teeth.
MS. STAFFORD:

Madam Chair, I believe our

liaison has requested to add something.
MS. LANNIN:
MS. MARTS:

What would you like to add?
Yes.

In terms of the discussion

of one versus 1a, these are attractive to us.

And of

the two, we certainly prefer one, with the house that
the three residents resided in, in the background.
It does give it a sense of place and a
stronger grounding within the park's resources versus
the general mountainous landscaping.
But to the committee's discussions regarding
concepts like two versus concepts like one, three and

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eight, we strongly weigh in on the need to have that
human element as part of it, reflecting that natural
and human dynamic.
We agree that two is just stunning in its
design.

But it feels placeless to us, even with the

slogan that would connect it back to the park's
message.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

Heidi, you wanted to

add one more thing?
MS. WASTWEET:

If we're going to lean toward

one, I just want to make a suggestion.

Because the

house is too detailed for the size of the palette, a
possible solution to that is to just make it a
silhouette so it's there.
It's a recognizable shape, but yet it makes it
appropriate for the size, if that was the direction you
wanted to go.
MS. LANNIN:

Donald?

MR. SCARINCI:
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. SCARINCI:
MS. LANNIN:

1a or two.

I'd go with 1a.

Are we finished discussing this

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grouping?

Then I think we should pass the scoring

sheets and we can begin talking about the next group.
MS. STAFFORD:
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Thank you, April.

SALT RIVER BAY NATIONAL HISTORICAL PARK AND ECOLOGICAL
PRESERVE
MS. STAFFORD:

Thank you.

For Salt River Bay,

unfortunately our liaison was not able to be with us
here either in person or on the phone.
But we can tell you from our numerous,
numerous interactions, largely they wanted to convey
that it was critical that they find an image that
represents the distinct and unique -- the uniqueness of
Salt River Bay as a park from any other place and
especially other places in the U.S. Virgin Islands.
So some background on Salt River Bay, this
national historical park and ecological preserve's
blend of sea and land holds some of the largest
remaining mangrove forests in the Virgin Islands.
The water, which makes up the majority of the
park's 1,015 acreage, is home to 27 species that have
been listed as rare, threatened or endangered.

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reefs form the basis of communities that are comparable
to tropical rainforests for their biological richness
and global significance.
The liaison's preference, there is only one
and it's a strong preference, is design one.

This

design depicts a red mangrove tree in an early stage of
its lifecycle as it evolves from a very small plant to
an adult tree.

This design brings awareness to the

park's endangered mangrove forests and the unique and
delicate nature of how the species reproduces in
saltwater.
Moving on, design two features a school of
black bar soldier fish swimming past a shallow coral
reef dominated by elkhorn coral.

Design three depicts

a conch shell resting on the beach close to one of the
cultural landmarks in Salt River Bay Historical Site
and Ecological Preserve with red mangroves in the
background.
Design four portrays a juvenile green sea
turtle swimming among red mangroves on the shore of
Salt River Bay.

Seven highlights a green sea turtle

swimming through the mangrove roots as the viewer looks

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across the bay to see the mountainous landscape on the
other side.
And design 12 features a green sea turtle
basking in the Salt River Bay mangrove shallows.

Madam

Chair?
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you very much.

Heidi,

would you like to begin?
MS. WASTWEET:

I love this packet.

Everything

here could work really, and I don’t think I've ever
said that.

I agree with the liaison preference.

think that number one is clear.

It's attractive.

I
It

says everything it needs to say and it's size
appropriate.
We have a running joke in this committee about
turtles.

I'm sure we'll hear some turtle comments.

Both the turtles are great.
too.
park.

I would love to see those

The fish might be not specific enough to this
But I support the liaison preference in this

case.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. URAM:

Thank you.

I'm here.

are all terrific designs.

Tom, are you with us?

I agree.

I think these

I think that we can be

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pretty creative.

I really like number -- is it 12

that's on there?

It looks like 12.

But also I could

go with the stakeholders' preference as well.

Btu I

don’t think we could go wrong on any of the designs.
MS. LANNIN:

Great.

Thank you so much.

Robert?
MR. HOGE:

Thank you.

I agree with Tom.

think all of these are winners.

I would be happy to go

with the stakeholder preference of number one.

It's a

beautiful design.
And I agree with Tom that number 12 is really
kind of captivating too.

I like the combination of

both plant and animal life relating to the Salt River
Bay area too.

And the two turtles, we like turtles.

MS. LANNIN:
MR. HOGE:

We like turtles.

So they're all good.

The conch

shell does less for me, and the fish as well.

But

these -- but they're very attractive designs too.
Thank you.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Jeanne?

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I was really taken by this particular group of designs.

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It's refreshing to look at a page that you are very
happy with.

You know, I can't say no to really any of

these.
So, but my preference truly goes with number
one.

I think it's dynamic and powerful.

It has all

the negative space that we want and I think the
delicacy of the mangrove trees are -- it's just great.
So I'd go with that one.
But I do also like number seven because we do
have the plant life and this little turtle, which could
be nice.

However, I think there's too much -- too much

information here.

So as it's coined up, we might lose

the beauty of this coin.
number one.

And therefore, I go back to

Thank you.

MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Jeanne.

MR. SCARINCI:

Yeah.

Donald?

Everything you said,

Jeanne.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. SCARINCI:

Thank you.

And yeah, one is a great coin.

I just -- I just want to say though, they're all
excellent designs.

And I know at least one or two of

these is Emily Damstra's, who was devastated when I

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criticized her coin one time.
all of these coins, okay?
good.

But I want to compliment

So all of these designs are

And, you know, and we keep asking for turtles.
MS. LANNIN:

Yes.

MR. SCARINCI:

We got them.

We get turtles and we're not

going to vote for turtles?

You know, I mean, you know,

it's kind of -- kind of sad.
sending mixed messages.
turtles.

I mean, we talk about us

We want turtles, turtles,

We get turtles, perfectly good turtles, all

good turtles.

Any one of these coins could be picked.

MS. LANNIN:

True.

MS. STAFFORD:
really important.

It's just -- this is I think

Because of the hurricanes and the

catastrophic devastation that happened in the Virgin
Islands as we were beginning discussions about the
concepts and themes that were appropriate, I don’t know
if you all remember, but we were without a definitive
liaison for some time.
And so, when we finally established contact
and we shared with them the penchant for turtles, they
were very cautious about that because, while there are
turtles, of course they're in the U.S. Virgin Islands.

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This particular site, they were very, very strong on
this point, is not necessarily known for turtles, while
sister sites are very much known.
And so, that's why the turtles you see here
all have another element that speaks to the distinction
of Salt River Bay.
So just for your awareness, that was a little
bit of a timing issue on our part because it was
difficult for us to establish that subject matter
expertise in the beginning that could help shape that
direction.

So, if that makes you feel any better.

MR. SCARINCI: I know.
that.

I know.

And I know

I have turtles in Turks and Caicos.

And I'm

dealing with my hurricane damage this weekend actually.
You know, finally I got the kitchen guy.

Two on the

island.
You know, but, you know, for all the reasons
Jeanne said and all the reasons Heidi said, you know, I
mean, number one is a no-brainer choice.

But it's a

no-brainer choice among really good choices.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Donald.

Dennis?

MR. TUCKER:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

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Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Public Meeting (06/12/18)
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it's important for our artists to listen to what we're
saying here and listen to what we like about these
designs.
They all have bold, singular, primary devices
that draw your eye in.

They've got the conch shell, a

turtle, a mangrove tree.

And we like that approach

because it makes a coin memorable.

Think back to the

Frank Church River of No Return coin, the wilderness
coin.
I supported the design that had a big, bold
wolf staring straight at you, you know, a front-facing
portrait.

My opinion was that kids would see that and

they would all immediately start checking their pocket
change and their piggybanks to see if they could find a
wolf coin.
You know, it didn't have detail filling every
square millimeter.

It didn't have a lot of trees and

other elements competing with the wolf.

It would

become the wolf coin.
So you know, here we have -- we've got the
fish coin, the turtle coin, the conch coin, the
mangrove coin.

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MS. LANNIN:

I think we should do them all.

MR. TUCKER:

So these bold elements serve well

on this venue, you know, the one-inch quarter.
I thought it was interesting that none of
these designs directly illustrate the historical aspect
of the historical park.
out.

I just thought I'd throw that

But that was an interesting sidebar.
Number two shows motion, which is a dimension

that we don’t see in every coin design.
appealing for that reason.

So I found it

Number three is good.

You

know, we have the central design element and it's
backed up by other secondary design elements.
Four and seven are, you know, our last best
chances to finally get a turtle, as we know.

I think

number seven, of the two turtle coins, is my favorite
artistically because I think it more naturally shows
the animal in its habitat.
It's much more -- in number four, the turtle
is more central to the design.

But I think it comes at

the expense of a greater realism.

You know, it's kind

of floating in air rather than swimming through the
water.

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And number 12 is artful.

It has personality.

But I think it loses something by not showing the
entire turtle and also by not showing it in motion.

appreciate the liaison's feedback on how turtles are
not necessarily distinct to this site.
But I think number seven gets around that
because it does put it within the context of the water
and the flora of the region.
think it's very bold.
like all of them.

So I like number one.

I also like number seven.

But one and seven are my strongest

preferences.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. URAM:

Hey, Dennis?

MR. TUCKER:
MR. URAM:

Thank you, Dennis.

Yes, Tom?

Don’t forget we still have the --

don’t forget we still have the bats when the turtles
come.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

The bats.

The bats and the turtles.

MR. SCARINCI:
MR. TUCKER:

The bats.

Oh yes, that's right.

right.

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(Cross-talk.)
MR. TUCKER:

The bat coin.

MR. JANSEN:

Yeah.

I hate to turn my back on

these turtles, but I think I'm going to.

Comments to

the artists, as Dennis just said, design number two has
motion in it, which is kind of fun.

So the coral was a

bit of a confusing shape there.
So I would say to the artist who did that
design, bring that school of fish back again because I
think there is motion there and I like that.
a fun set of drawings.

This was

It has the elements of singular

symbols with effective negative space.

And that makes

it very easy.
To the artist on design 12, I think one of the
distracting pieces of that is the perspective -- the
perspective is off on the -- we've got the ripples in
different plains.

And so, the perspective doesn't work

and that kind of tears the picture apart in terms of it
feeling good.
So bring the ripples back on another design
where that approach works.

But get your perspective

cleared up a little bit, please.

It's difficult.

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we missed it on this one.
I'm voting for design number one.
will work well.

I think it will stand out.

I think it
It's the

best choice here.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

I'd like to add my

sad tale of another turtle gone missing.

The minute I

saw design number one, it was so beautiful.

I know

that that was going to be it.
So thank you to the artists who have indulged
our fascinating with turtles.

But I think that,

without question, it has to be design number one.

And

everybody's smiling.
Okay.

I think we should pass out the sheets

and vote on this, unless anybody's got any other
questions.

Ron, are you happy with design number one?

MR. HARRIGAL:
MS. LANNIN:

We can definitely sculpt that.

Great.

Thank you.

Okay.

We're

going to take a break for about 15 minutes while the
calculations are being done.
minutes to 12:00.

We'll come back at five

Thank you.

(Whereupon, the foregoing went off the record
at 11:40 a.m., and went back on the record at

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11:53 a.m.)
MS. LANNIN:

We'd like to begin.

We'd like to

begin with a discussion of how we voted for Salt River
and for Marsh-Billings-Rockefeller.
For Salt River, design number one was our
winner with 23 points.
eight points.

Design number two and eight had

Design three had four.

four had six votes.

Design number

Design number seven had eight

votes and design 12 had seven votes.

So number one it

is on that one.
Marsh-Billings, design number one had four
votes.

Design number 1a had 10 votes.

two had 10 votes.

Design number

Design number three had six votes.

Design number four had one vote.
Design number five had eight votes.
number six, no votes.

Design number seven, no votes.

Design number eight, eight votes.
zero votes.
a tie.

Design

Design number nine,

Design number 10, zero votes.

So we have

Apryl, would you like -- this Apryl, with a Y,

would you like to address that?
MS. WHITAKER:

Sure.

There is a tie between

design 1a and number two, both receiving 10 points.

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reach a majority to make a recommendation, the point
total is 13.

So we've not yet reached a majority.

you have options.

But

I think you would be -- if anyone

wants to -- I think you can make a motion certainly and
discuss those two designs specifically.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

design 1a, with 10 votes?

Who would like to discuss

Would anybody like to weigh

in on that?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
I think 1a is very viable.

I'll weigh in on this.

I think what the hesitation

might be is the position of the right hand and exactly
is that having the soil down or not.
But as far as the design goes, I love the fact
that the Green Mountains are in the back.
liaison wanted the structure.
is a clearer design.

I know the

But I believe that this

I like the negative space behind

it.
I like the fact that we have a little bit of
grasslands there that shows it needs to be planted.

there's a need there and that's my opinion of that.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

Erik I think was --

MR. JANSEN:

I'm not favoring 1a in

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particular.

But I think the human element I think

needs to be an element of the winning design here, and
whether that's explicit or implicit, 1a has that.

And

obviously five and eight also have that.
But I think the human element is important
here because otherwise it -- otherwise you lose the
real definition of stewardship and you just end up in
natural lands, which I don’t think is the message here.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Erik.

Donald, did you

want to add something?
MR. SCARINCI:
prettiest coin is two.

Well, I mean, I think the
But I can live with 1a, you

know, if people want it and I'm going to trust the
artists on the sculpt of the hands.

And, you know, it

seems like the liaison prefers 1a.
Dennis made some really good points about 1a
and I think we've got to just -- you know, I think, you
know, we've got to keep the liaison away from, you
know, wanting the house too because once you get the
hands, you've got to get the house, right?
So if we have to go with it, if we have to go
with the human element, let's keep it to 1a.

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MS. LANNIN:

Let's somebody make a motion.

MR. SCARINCI: I'll move it.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I'll second.

I'll

second.
MS. LANNIN:

So Donald, your motion is to cast

our votes or our choice with 1a, with the hands, and
with the Green Mountains in the background over number
two, which also received the same number of votes.
Seconded by Jeanne.

All in favor of the motion, say

aye.
(Chorus of ayes.)
MR. URAM:

Aye.

MS. LANNIN:

Aye.

Those opposed?

Thank you, Tom.

Those opposed?
MS. WASTWEET:

Opposed.

MR. JANSEN:

Opposed.

MS. LANNIN:

Oh, okay.

So how many of us are

there?
MS. WASTWEET:

You want a show of hands?

MS. STAFFORD:

Eight.

MS. LANNIN:
carries.

Eight.

So six to two, the motion

So we're going to go with 1a.

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MR. SCARINCI:

Two is pretty.

So please tell

the artist of two that we love two.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
this one.

Yeah, I agree.

I love this one very, very much.

I love

But I

think with the liaison's preference with the human
element is why I chose that one instead of this one.
MR. SCARINCI:

Well, I didn't.

choose because of the liaison at all.

I didn't

You know, I

chose -MS. LANNIN:

Donald --

MR. SCARINCI:
it clear.

I'm sorry.
MR. JANSEN:

I chose -- I just want to make
But, you know --

Don't worry.

He's always like

that.
MR. SCARINCI:

I'm sorry.

But I chose because

we gave the instructions, you know, the instructions we
gave to the artist required a human element.

And the

person who -- the artist who did 1a did what we asked
them to do.

So --

MS. LANNIN:

Right.

MR. SCARINCI:

I mean, even though two turned

out to be a prettier design.

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MS. LANNIN:

Thank you very much.

We will

break now for lunch.
(Whereupon, the foregoing went off the record
at 12:00 p.m., and went back on the record at
1:14 p.m.)
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

I would like to reopen the

meeting and turn it immediately over to April, who will
discuss the Tuskegee Airmen National Historic Site in
Alabama.
TUSKEGEE AIRMEN NATIONAL HISTORIC SITE
MS. STAFFORD:

Thank you.

Established in

1998, the Tuskegee Airmen National Historic Site
commemorates the heroic actions and achievements of the
famous Tuskegee Airmen.
Flying in the Mediterranean theater of
operations during World War II, the Tuskegee Airmen
completed 15,000 sorties and approximately 1,500
missions, destroyed over 260 enemy aircraft, sank one
enemy destroyer and demolished numerous enemy
installations.

The airmen were awarded numerous high

honors, including Distinguished Flying Crosses, Legion
of Merit, Silver Stars and Purple Hearts.

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With the support of civil rights
organizations, the Tuskegee Airmen movement became
known as the Double V campaign, meaning victory in both
fighting racism at home and fascism abroad.
The site's preference are seen here.

AL-01,

the liaison's strong first preference, AL-10a and AL13.

Again, we are very fortunate to have our liaison,

Park Ranger Vester Marable, with us today.
welcome, and thank you very much.

Vester,

Would you like to

say a few words to the committee?
MR. MARABLE:

Good morning.

Thank you all so

much for inviting me here and I'm glad to be a part of
this amazing process and seeing what the inner workings
are of making our quarters and coins come to life.

And

it's a beautiful day in Tuskegee and it's an even
better day here in Washington, D.C.
MS. STAFFORD:

Thank you.

We'll start with

design one, again, our liaison's preference.

This

design depicts a Tuskegee Airman pilot suiting up to
join the fight during World War II, with the Moton
Field Control Tower in the background.

The pilot looks

upward with pride and confidence as two P-51 Mustangs

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pass overhead.

The inscription "They Fought Two Wars"

is arced across the top as a reference to the dual
battles the Tuskegee Airmen fought, fascism abroad and
racial discrimination at home.
Design two features a Tuskegee Airman suiting
up on the tarmac with his P-51 Mustang in the
background.

He looks upward with pride and confidence,

ready to join the fight during World War II.

The

Double V and the inscription "Double Victory" recall
the struggles of the Tuskegee Airmen faced both at home
and abroad.
Design four portrays a PT-17 Stearman, an
aircraft used by the Tuskegee Institute to train
pilots.

The background contains the symbolic double V.

Five stars represent the five graduates from the very
first class of Tuskegee Airmen.
Design six depicts a P-51 Mustang with a
symbolic double V in the background representing the
airmen's fight to defeat both fascism abroad and racism
at home.

The inscription -- the inscription "They

Fought Two Wars" is arced across the top.
Designs eight and nine portray P-51 Mustangs,

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the primary battle aircraft used by the Tuskegee Airmen
flying overhead.

The planes are interlaced with a

symbolic double V, inscriptions included are "At Home
and Abroad" and "Double Victory".

This is design eight

and design nine.
Designs 10a, b and d all feature two
representations of the same man, as an aviator fighting
fascism during the war and as a civilian fighting
against racial discrimination.
Design A is the second preference of our
liaison, seen here, and features two aircraft primarily
used by the Tuskegee Airmen, the PT-17 Stearman for
training, seen on the right, and the P-51 Mustang for
battles on the left.

A banner with the inscription

"Double Victory" is seen at the bottom.
Design 10b depicts a symbolic double V.

The

artist purposely pierced the border with the second V
before the inscription "E Pluribus Unum", or, out of
many, one, to further emphasize the struggle against
racism.

Roundels from the P-51 Mustang balance out the

design.

10d seen here features a larger figure and

includes the inscriptions "Victory in War" and "Victory

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at home".
Design 12 depicts pilot, navigator and
bombardier wings representing some of the many
specialties achieved by Tuskegee Airmen.

They are

superimposed over the familiar double V design.
Borrowing from heraldry, the left side of the field
utilizes vertical stripes to indicate the color red,
representing warriors and military strength.
The white panel of horizontal lines indicates
the color blue, representing truth and loyalty.
Together with the center panel depicting white by the
smooth texture, they represent the American flag.

The

inscription "They Fought Two Wars" is centered across
the top of the design.
Design 13, the liaison's third preference,
depicts a Tuskegee Airman suited up for flight with two
P-51 Mustangs flying in the background.

The

inscription "Cradle of Black Aviation" completes the
design.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, April.

Heidi, I think

that you would like to have something to say about
this, wouldn't you?

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MS. WASTWEET:

I'm really on the hot seat

today going first.
MS. LANNIN:

No, you're just sitting next to

me.
MS. WASTWEET:

That's okay.

I can take it.

This is a challenging packet in that there's a subtle,
subtle difference that keeps us on topic.

This series

of quarters is America the Beautiful national parks
quarters.
So we are honoring the parks.

And in the case

where we have a historic site, it's really easy to
drift over that line into honoring the history rather
than the site itself.
(Sirens sounding.)
MS. WASTWEET:

Can't compete with that siren.

MS. STAFFORD:

I was just going to say it's

related to the parade and the celebration.
MS. WASTWEET:

Oh.

So what I was saying is

it's really easy to drift over that line into
commemorating the event rather than the site.

So a lot

of these designs do indeed, in my view, drift over that
line.

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When we talk about double victories, it really
pulls us back into talking about the Tuskegee Airmen
rather than talking about the historic site of the
Tuskegee Airmen.

So all of these that say double

victory to me pull us off the topic.
And the images with the two different dress,
the suit and the bomber jacket, I don’t think that that
gets the message across that is intended.
narrows my picks down pretty quickly.

So that

And I land on

number 13.
So we can't talk about the history site
without talking about the people.

But because we have

the person and the aircraft, which -- and I'm making a
leap to assume that there are aircraft on display on
the site.

Am I correct?
MR. MARABLE:

May I say something?

MS. STAFFORD:

Yes.

MS. WASTWEET:

Yeah.

MR. MARABLE:

You're correct.

There are --

the P-51 Mustang is on display at the site, as well as
the P-17 Stearman and J-3 Piper Cub.

The reason why

number -- the first selection of our preference was

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chosen is because it does depict the site.

The hangar

and the control tower that's in the background are
actually the museum that visitors come into and visit
the park today.
MS. WASTWEET:
that in.

Great.

Thank you for filling

I also like design one, and I'll talk about

that next.

So number 13, we have the airplanes, which

are on display at the site.
We have the human element there, plus I love
the phrase -- and again, I'm not a fan of text on
coins, but here again it adds some added information
that's valuable.

The cradle of black aviation I think

is really descriptive.
So I think this hits all the points of the
message.

We have lots of negative space, which defines

our core elements that stand out very bold.

So I'm

really liking 13.
So we can then go talk about number one.
like this design a lot.

I like the building.

But it's

getting into that realm of not necessarily size
appropriate for this coin.
small.

It's getting a little bit

I think we can get by with that building.

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Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Public Meeting (06/12/18)
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simple enough.

It's big enough.

I think it can work.

I don’t like the phrase "They Fought Two
Wars".

I really prefer the cradle of aviation or

nothing at all there.

I like the gesture where he's

adjusting his chin strap instead of just standing
there.
I think that adds a lot to the composition and
the angle of his arm keeps the flow of the design
coming around from the building through his arm and up
through the plane.

So that makes a nice contribution.

I could -- I could go either way with one or
13.

But I will not be putting votes towards any of the

other designs.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. HOGE:

Thank you, Heidi.

Robert?

I concur completely with Heidi.

think number one is the preference obviously because
it's the only one that actually conveys part of the
site.
The others are imagery having to do with the
historicity.

This is important.

But I also agree

specifically with Heidi that it's a little bit more
confusing to add in they fought two wars.

Well, who's

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the they?

Is it the Park Service?

No, it's the

airmen.
But that doesn't really have to do with the
site specifically.

The wars were in Europe or the

civil rights campaign throughout the entire country.
So to be site-specific, I think number one is
unquestionably the choice and that's the preference of
the committee.

That's it.

MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Jeanne?

Thank you.

agree with everything that's been said.

I have to

I also want to

add the fact that the airman in number one is -- you
know, he's very thoughtful and pensive.
And I think that the artist did a beautiful
job representing this person.
also is well done.

I think that number 13

But I'm really drawn to number one

because it does have the buildings in there as the
planes -- it seems to have everything we need.
The only thing I would suggest that if we do
choose this design, that perhaps we could change the
text for cradle of black aviation.

I think that would

-- I think that would work better or --

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MR. HOGE:

Site-specific.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. HOGE:

Or nothing.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

It's much more site-

specific.

I do like text on coins.

for text.

I think that it's informative.

in your face.

So I'm going to go
It's not too

But it does help us and help the public

know what this really is about.
Remember these are coins.

These are quarters.

And I'm thinking about the fact that kids are going to
reach in their pocket.

And they're going to identify

with this, which is really a thoughtful, a very
thoughtful piece.
So I congratulate the artists on all of these.
Although they missed the mark a little bit, I think the
designs are good.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Jeanne.

Before we

round the corner, I'd like to see if Tom is on the
phone.
MR. URAM:

Yeah.

Thank you.

Well, I always

bring this up when we're talking about the -- any of
the war ones.

I always -- since I have an exhibit of

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Morse Code, I always would like to have seen Morse
Code.

But I don’t see any here.

won't be one for -- but I agree.

So it won't be -- it
I think you need to

have the people.
And I do like number one and number 13 as well
because I think it's important to have the
representation of the airmen as well as the plane.

So,

you know, we've done some other things with the planes
in the past.

And I just think that either one of those

is appropriate for what we're trying to do here.
I think some of the other ones, I really like
some of the others.

I kind of like 10a, 10b.

just too busy and don’t really care for 10d.

But it's
But I

like the idea of the smaller planes.
I probably would have liked it better without
double victory the way it was on the banner.
think I'm going to lean towards one and 13.

But I
Thanks,

Madam Chair.
MS. LANNIN:

Thanks, Tom.

MR. SCARINCI:

Donald?

I think -- I think we got it.

I think the choice is between one and 13.
really no other choice.

There's

And as between one and 13, I

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prefer 13 because it's cleaner.
quarter.

It's simple.

It's a

And I think there's too much going on, on

one, marginally too much going on.
cleaner look of 13.

I just prefer the

So I'm supporting 13.

MS. LANNIN:

Dennis?

MR. TUCKER:

Thank you.

Again, I think it's

important for us to remember back to our 2017
telephonic discussion and the guidance that we gave our
artists.

We did talk about the aircraft, the equipment

and the materials of war.
But I think the thing that we spoke about more
was the importance of the men and women who were
involved in Tuskegee and not so much the airplanes.

I think the ones that focus only on airplanes and
machinery miss the boat, miss the plane.

But the ones

that -MS. WASTWEET:
MR. TUCKER:

There's a pun for you.

-- you don’t need me anymore.

The ones that show the humanity rather than machinery
are one, two, 10 in its various forms and 13.

these, I personally would avoid the ones that show the
aviators in civilian clothes.

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I understand the fighting two wars theme and
I'll come back to that.

I think it's very important.

But I think the contrast of military combat
clothing and a business suit is confusing, especially
in those instances where we have the men who I
understand are actually the same man facing different
directions.

So of those, I do prefer 10d.

I mention

that just in passing.
My preference is for number one.

It includes

a legend that our liaison's recommended, they fought
two wars.

It does show the aircraft, which is

important to the story.

It shows the museum of the

site.
It's an active design.
something.

He's actually doing

He's not just standing or observing.

preparing for battle.

He's

It's detailed but it's not

overly busy.
I think this would coin well.

It would

certainly make a larger medallic piece in the threeinch silver coin.
elements.

And it has clearly definable

So it has detail, but not cluttered detail.
So this is my preferred design.

And I would

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actually argue for the legend or inscription "They
Fought Two Wars".

I don’t think it distractingly

raises the question who because we do have right above
it Tuskegee Airmen.

They fought two wars.

And also, I would point out that while it's
important for our coins to tell people things, I don’t
think it's necessarily bad if our coins also make them
wonder about things and ask questions.
So if a child or an American who's not
familiar with this site and its history sees this and
says they fought two wars, what were the two wars they
fought.
Is it World War I and World War II?
it's bigger than that.

Well no,

It's World War II and, you

know, something that's deeper and more important, juts
bigger to the American experience, the civil rights
movement.
So I think they fought two wars is a better
inscription than cradle of black aviation, which
Tuskegee was.

But we're not only talking about a place

where black Americans became important in American
aviation.

It's more than that.

They fought -- they

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fought in our military wars.

And then, they came home

and they faced -- they faced more battles that they had
to fight at home.

I think number one is perfect.

It's

a strong design and I think it says what our liaison
wants it to say.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Dennis.

Erik, what

would you like to add?
MR. JANSEN:

I would just reiterate all of

MS. LANNIN:

Well, there you go.

that.

it's up to me.

Okay.

I too like number one and number 13.

I'm kind of in Donald's camp, where I think 13, for me,
is a cleaner design.
I like the fact that the wing of the plane,
you know, is breaking through sort of the circle.

like the fact that it says cradle of black aviation
because that -- the cradle part makes you think of a
site itself where you don’t necessarily need to have a
building.
I will understand completely if the majority
of the votes go to number one, which seems to be the
liaison's preference.

But I just wanted to put in my

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two cents or 25 cents for number 13.

Thank you very

much.
MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:

I have a follow-up.

Certainly.

MS. WASTWEET:

I want to make two follow-up

comments, just to throw another idea out there for the
lettering on one.
It would be also very descriptive if we put
national historic site there, since that's the full
name.

And the only reason that the full name is not on

the rim, I assume, is because it doesn't fit.

So was

it discussed using the full text?
MR. HARRIGAL:

You're absolutely right, Heidi.

I mean, that's too much text to be able to put on the
rim.
And you'll see on some of the others where,
you know, taking it to the extreme, but we do have to
truncate when it gets too long to the point where it
doesn't make sense.

And so, that's why we ended up

with the Tuskegee Airmen.
MS. WASTWEET:

So it could be that space to

continue with the full name and put -- instead of

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saying they fought two wars, we could put in there
national historic site and then we have the full name
of the place.
MR. HARRIGAL:

Inside where the artwork is,

MS. WASTWEET:

Yeah, instead of they fought

MR. HARRIGAL:

Yeah.

MS. WASTWEET:

So that's just another

yes.

two wars.

alternative I want to throw out there as an idea.

The

other thing I want to say is to remind everyone,
because we have two designs that we seem to have risen
to the top, if you only vote for one and not the other,
then we have the danger of splitting our votes.
So our scoring system, being a three, two,
one, is not first, second, third place, but rather a
score of quality.

So I encourage everyone to give

votes to all the designs they think merit so that they
can get the highest score possible.
MS. LANNIN:

Erik?

MR. JANSEN:

A question for the site rep.

understand kind of including the personification

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element in your preference and a lot of our discussion.
Notably, you have not prioritized double V anywhere and
I'm just curious how that came to pass when it was
embedded in the original spec.
MR. MARABLE:

How did the double V not make it

into the prioritization?
MR. JANSEN:
MR. MARABLE:

Right.
I think, let's see, the three

that we chose at the top, one was the -- of course,
because it featured the site.

It featured the P-51

Mustang, which is the iconic aircraft flown by the
Tuskegee Airmen.
And then, the final -- the number 13, a lot of
times when you come to Tuskegee, a big part of it does
say that cradle of black aviation.
A lot of the -- when they talk about,
goodness, chief Alfred Anderson, who was the chief
flight instructor, that's always the comment that comes
up, the father of black aviation at the cradle of black
aviation.

So that's where those two kind of took to

the front.
The double V also, when I showed them, the

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other designs, to our superintendent, was our director,
came off as just a little -- the art -- once we had to
go back in and take away some of the character of the
double V symbols because it was a little too close to
the Pittsburgh Courier design, it looked a little
bland.

And when it said double V, the one that we did

choose with double victory on it, was the AL-10a.
So we did include one with the double victory
in there.

It wasn't that it was not important.

definitely is.

If you come to the exhibits at the

museum, it's all over the place.
everywhere.

Double victory is

But it just -- in the designs that we were

given, it was not -- it was not ones that we selected.
MR. JANSEN:

Thank you.

MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

MR. HOGE:

Okay.

Robert?

Just one further short comment with

regard to number one.

I think it might be appropriate

if we dropped this they fought two wars because, as
Dennis mentioned, this is meaningful.
well be confusing.

But it could

Was it the First World War, Second

World War?
MS. LANNIN:

Right.

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MR. HOGE:
War?

Was it Second World War, Korean

You see two airplanes there.

Was each of the

airplanes one of the wars?
MS. LANNIN:
MR. HOGE:

Right.

You know, so I think the idea that

Heidi proposed, maybe suggesting putting national
historical site in there would be preferable or perhaps
even nothing, just to give it the additional space
because saying Tuskegee Airmen there, really if you
want to know more, you look them up and you find out
what they did and what was going on.
And so, I don’t know that we really need that
they fought two wars business there because it can be a
little bit confusing.

Thank you.

MS. LANNIN:

Dennis?

MR. TUCKER:

I have to argue strongly for they

fought two wars.

It's -- why would you take that out?

It's -MR. HOGE:

Just because it's --

MR. TUCKER:
secondary.

It's not superfluous.

It's not unimportant.

doesn't clutter the design.

It's not

It's not -- it

I don’t think -- I don’t

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think leaving the fact that it's a national historic
site confuses or leaves information out any more than
any other instance where we've left those technical
terms out.

This is an important -- as our liaison has

said, this is everywhere on this site, this concept of
two -MS. WASTWEET:

It makes sense at the site

because the site is talking about the Tuskegee Airmen.
But the coin is talking about the site.
MR. TUCKER:

I don’t -- I don’t understand or

agree with that distinction.
Frederick Douglass site.

I mean, think of the

I mean, we're not talking

about buildings and trees.

We're talking about

Frederick Douglass.
With the Tuskegee Airmen site, we're not
talking about hangars and relics.

We're talking about

men and women who made a difference in American history
and who fought hard for themselves and for people who
live today.
So I don’t think we should get hung up on, you
know, showing -- you know, we could show trees that are
on the site.

We could show other elements of

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physicality of the natural location or the grounds.
But it's the humans.
that is important.

It's the humanity of the site

And part of that humanity is this

idea that they fought in a war in Europe and Asia and
they fought in a war at home.
I think it's very important.

I think if we

simply say that this is the cradle of black aviation,
aviation is broad.

I mean, that covers everything from

mail delivery to commercial transportation, passenger
transportation.

They fought two wars.

at once that simple and that complex.

That's -- it is
And I think it's

important.
MS. WASTWEET:

Well, I think in your example,

the Frederick Douglass, I think it's the same case
where the coin is honoring the historic site.

So it's

a very subtle, fine line where you're honoring both the
site and the historic significance of the site.
MR. TUCKER:
is there for Douglass.

But the site honors -- the site
It's not -- you know, if it's

in -- if it's in Sheboygan or if it's in Los Angeles or
if it's in Rochester, New York, it doesn't matter where
the site is.

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In other words, we wouldn't show a map of the
United States with a big star, you know, and that's
where the site is and that's our design.

It's about

the person or, in this case, the people whom the site
honors or remembers.
So again, I think focusing on the physical
aspect of the location is secondary to the message of
the site.

And number one does -- it does both.

actually does show part of that physicality.
MS. WASTWEET:

Yeah.

I think it is about both

and I think number one does do both.
phrase takes it away.
MR. TUCKER:

I think the

That's it.
The phrase puts it in context.

The phrase sets the context of the greater struggle.
It gets to the historic part of the national historic
site.

And to me, that's why it's important.

I don’t

know if that convinces or -MS. WASTWEET:

I think we're at a --

MR. TUCKER:

Okay.

MS. LANNIN:

Donald, did you want to say

something?
MR. TUCKER:

Agree to disagree.

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MS. WASTWEET:

-- an impasse.

MR. SCARINCI:

Another reason I like 13 better

than one is because it really -- you know, again, they
fought two wars.

It wasn't the fighting of the war

that was really what Tuskegee was about really.
It was about making them aviators.

It was

saying like you could -- you could do this and we have
confidence in you, right, to do this.
wasn't about fighting two wars.

You know, it

I mean, blacks fought

in the Civil War, right?
MR. TUCKER:

But that's passive, Donald.

That's telling black Americans we're going to give you
this.

Number one is very active.

He is taking an

active role in his future and the future of America.
MR. SCARINCI:
MR. TUCKER:

Look in 13.

MR. SCARINCI:
MR. TUCKER:

Fighting wars.
He's standing there.

He's fighting wars.

He's standing.

He's looking.

He's observing.
MR. SCARINCI:
MR. TUCKER:

It's like --

He's not active at all.

So what

I'm saying is the design is active versus passive.

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also, the way you're describing it is you're describing
a passive receiving of I don’t know what.
MR. SCARINCI:
MR. TUCKER:

It's being an aviator.

Beneficence?

MR. SCARINCI:

It's being an aviator and

having -- you know, being -- saying yeah, you know, you
can be an aviator.

I mean, fighting wars, I mean,

that's just fighting wars.

You know --

MR. TUCKER:

The man in 13 is --

MS. LANNIN:

Let's see what Mr. Marable has to

MR. TUCKER:

The man in 13 is perhaps being

say.

told you can be an aviator.

The man in number one is

saying I'm going to be an aviator.
MR. SCARINCI:
MR. TUCKER:
MR. MARABLE:

You can fight a war.

Well, okay.
Well, I want to -- the war

aspect is not just the war.

Of course the -- and I'm

not sure if there's a better way -- I'm not sure if
there's a better way to convey that.

But the two war

aspect is showing that they did fight in World War II.
But of course this is the match that lights

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the modern civil rights movement.

Because of what

happens at Tuskegee and eventually overseas, the airmen
come home and you have gentlemen that fight for -- that
march with Martin Luther King from Selma to Montgomery.
You have folks that decide to run for mayor.
The first African-American mayor of Detroit, Coleman
Young.

You have the first bureau head in New York to

come out of this.

You have the Pullman porters

association with A. Philip Randolph.
All of this is a direct descendent of the
Tuskegee Airmen legacy.

So the war was not just the

physical war but also the war -- the war that we think
of with the airplanes and the bombers, but also it was
the war here at home against -- you have -- when they
get overseas, you have the Italians tell them why are
you fighting.
You know, this country doesn't like you.
don’t want you to be here.

They

And they tell them -- and

excuse my language -- this is my country.

I'm going to

fight for it and I'll be damned if I see somebody else
come in and take it over.

So it was literally two wars

that they were fighting.

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MS. STAFFORD:

Vester, could you also speak to

what was happening, the context in which they started
this Tuskegee experiment and what they were up against
in terms of just proving out the possibility of their
capability and in that setting, that context?
MR. MARABLE:

Of course.

In 1925,

there was a study commissioned by the war department
that actually stated that blacks did not have the
mental or the physical abilities to fly, that if they
had given them an opportunity to be advanced pilots in
the military, they would crash and fail.
So this was an experiment.

This was an

experiment to see whether or not blacks actually could
sustain aircraft and maintain them and/or fly them and
fight in combat.

So this was -- this was a project

that was pushed forward, of course, by Eleanor
Roosevelt and President Roosevelt as a promise to the
black community to help push forward in advancing the
African-American in military service.
MS. LANNIN:

Erik?

MR. JANSEN:

Based on that, that tilts my

preference strongly to number one.

Thank you.

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MS. LANNIN:

With sound effects.

MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:

All right.

I think we're ready for a vote.

I think we're -- I think we're

ready for a vote, if we want to pass those out.

And

what is up next, April?
MS. STAFFORD:

We will be -- we will be

discussing Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve.
I could just see, Kristen, are you online?

And if

Let me go

ahead and ask if our other liaison from American Samoa
is with us on the line.
MR. BORDELON:
MS. STAFFORD:
MR. BORDELON:
MS. STAFFORD:
so much for joining us.

Jason, are you there?
Yes, I am.
Wonderful.
Good morning.
Good morning to you.

Thank you

Tell us what time it is for

you.
MR. BORDELON:

It's 6:47 a.m.

I'm watching

the sun come up over the forest with the fruit bats and
the sunrise.
MS. LANNIN:

Did you hear the word bat?

MS. WASTWEET:

Yeah.

Bats.

MS. STAFFORD:

Wonderful.

That's awesome.

Thank you.

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if it's okay, Madam Chair, since we do have our liaison
from National Park of American Samoa, I'd like to do
that, if you don’t mind.
MS. LANNIN:

That'd be just fine.

NATIONAL PARK OF AMERICAN SAMOA
MS. STAFFORD:

Wonderful.

Okay.

The National

Park of American Samoa is one of the most remote
national parks in the United States.

The people and

villages of American Samoa play a significant part in
helping to manage the park.

These members of

Polynesia's oldest culture have been keenly attuned to
their island environment, holding it to be precious and
managing it communally.
The park is only one in the United States
having both a mixed species paleotropical rainforest
and the endangered flying fruit bat.

Our site

liaison's preferences can be seen here.

They are

design three, design seven and design eight.
And as you know, with us today by phone is our
liaison and chief of interpretation and education,
Jason Bordelon.

Thank you again very much, Jason.

appreciate it.

Would you like to say a few words to

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the committee?
MR. BORDELON:

Yeah.

I just would like to say

thank you to Vanessa and to April and the team there.
It's been great working with everyone.
And I don’t have my full team here with my
right now.

But they have expressed how much they

enjoyed this process and how important it was for them
that their -- that their thoughts and that their
culture, the Samoan culture and the Polynesian culture,
they felt was really represented and validated in this
process.
And I think that's reflected in the work.

kudos to the team for that.
MS. STAFFORD:

Thank you.

go through the candidate designs.

All right.

We'll

First is design

three, which again is the liaison's first preference.
This design depicts a divided view with the top half of
the design featuring the northern tip of the park
looking east with Pola Island to the left.
Beneath the wave element is a seascape of a
coral reef characteristic of the Indo-Pacific reefs
found at the park.

The design symbolizes the goal of

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preserving American Samoa's entire sacred earth
ecosystem, including those systems less apparent to the
naked eye.
Designs four and five portray a Samoan man
blowing on a conch shell during special ceremonies and
indicating curfew in the village.

This is design four.

It also features a scene of American Samoa's shoreline,
and design five.
Design seven, our liaison's second preference,
depicts a Samoan fruit bat mother hanging in a tree
with her pup.

The image evokes the remarkable care and

energy that this species puts into their offspring.
The design is intended to promote awareness to
the species' threatened status due to habitat loss and
commercial hunting.

The National Park of American

Samoa is the only park in the United States that the
Samoan fruit bat calls home.
Design eight, the liaison's third preference,
portrays a man blowing into a conch shell, which is a
ritual often used to signify important cultural and
religious ceremonies.

Since it's also used to

communicate across the waters, a coin with this design

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can be seen as a global invitation to visit the
National Park of American Samoa.
Design nine highlights the Samoan fruit bat
native to American Samoa.

This is the only American

locale where this unique animal, a significant
mythological symbol of the ancient Samoan culture,
lives.

The bat is artistically juxtaposed with a

stylized scene of the Samoan seashore.
Design 10 features both the Samoan fruit bat
and the green sea turtle, with the island of Samoa in
the background.

Both creatures are native to the

island and are significant mythological symbols of the
ancient Samoan culture.
Design 12 depicts the Samoan fruit bat among
plants important to the Samoan people as part of their
staple diet: coconut, breadfruit and taro.

Thirteen

portrays a threadfin butterfly fish, a tropical fish
common to American Samoa and the reefs around the
National Park of American Samoa.
The design in the background is a Polynesian
symbol of a wave common to the Samoan tradition of
tattoo.

Did I pronounce that correctly?

Jason, did I

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pronounce that correctly?

design.

MR. BORDELON:

Yes.

MS. STAFFORD:

Thank you -- within the wave

Design 14 depicts a scene of the Ofu unit

within the National Mark of American Samoa with the
spectacular ancient volcanic mountains rising on the
island.

In the foreground is a reef with several

threadfin butterfly fish and a variety of other sea
life.
MS. LANNIN:
see turtles.

Thank you, April.

And now, we get bats.

MS. WASTWEET:
lots of fun things here.

Always good to

Heidi?

What a great packet.

There's

And I'm going to start by

saying I love bats.
Let's talk about design number three.

So this

is a good example of a variety of the qualities I was
talking about earlier today about clarity and size
appropriateness and message and creativity.
So on the top half of the coin, we have these
landforms that are very clear.

The negative space

around them is very pleasing and it's size appropriate
and then this graphic wave that divides the above water

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and below water is very effective.
polished in the larger version.

That would be

So that's all great.

But then, below the water, we have too much
going on.

This would have been such a winner design if

those fish had been distilled down to their key
character and made more bold and clear.

As it is

presented to us here, there's a lot of texture going on
and on the actual size of the quarter, everything is
going to disappear there.
Every time I come to visit the Mint, I go down
to the machine in the lobby and I get the latest
quarter.

And I look and I see how it reads in my hand,

not just on the computer screen or on the drawing.
And I can tell you that when we get a lot of
texture like this, it all just becomes a mush and it
disappears.

So I wish this design had just taken that

one step further because this would have been perfect.
If we can talk about design seven, like I
said, I love bats and I think it's an appropriate
symbol for this park.

And these are really cute bats.

But I'm not convinced that this is going to read well
on the quarter.

I would have rather seen it zoomed out

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a little bit so we see a little more of the shape of
the bat or if it was just a single bat, I think the two
heads might get very confusing.
It's clear in the drawing what's going on.
But on the quarter, I don’t think it's going to be
clear.

I don’t have a full confidence there.
Design number eight, I think this is well

drawn.

It has action.

It has composition.

texture, but it's not too busy.
about this design.

There's

I have no complaint

I like the topic of the bat more

than the topic of the person.

But design-wise, this

hits -- this checks all the boxes.
So we have a couple other bat choices.
talk about 10.

There's a lot going on here.

but there's action.

Let's

It's --

It's got a circular composition.

The graphic waves will read really well to
scale on both the large and small versions of the coin.
There's lots of details in the animals but it's not
overly detailed.

I think this one could look really

well.
If we could talk about 13, when I saw this in
my packet, when I opened up the packet, I'm like, wow,

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that would look so good on the quarter.

That texture,

the swirling, the -- it's got a clear subject, negative
space.
It's creative.
this.

We haven't seen anything like

It talks about the culture and the animals

together.

I think this is a winner design.

sad to see it's not a liaison preference.

And I'm

I really

think that would translate well.
If we could talk about 14, this is a good
contrast back to design number three that I talked
about earlier.
And these fish are distilled down to their key
character and they are very clear and prominent and we
have landforms that are also simplified so that they're
very clear and graphic waves.

So what design number

one is trying to do, design 14 is achieving.

It's

still not a bat, but it's very, very lovely.
So that brings me kind of to a dilemma.

like some subjects in some designs and I like designs
in other designs.

So I haven't really decided which

one is my favorite yet and I'm looking forward to
everyone else's comments to help me narrow it down.

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MS. LANNIN:

Tom, would you like to weigh in?

Tom, are you there?
MR. URAM:
buttons here.

Okay.

I keep pushing the wrong

But anyhow, these are great designs.

And I think that a couple that I -- that really stood - I like the idea of the split in number three.

But

for the reasons mentioned -- but it is -- it's really
innovative.
Number seven is something we haven't seen
really like this, number 10 also.
lot as well.

And I did like 13 a

So I'm discounting three because I think

we've seen a little bit similar to that in other
currencies that have done this.
But I think number seven or number 10 really
could attract some youth to collecting maybe, an
outside chance of that, because it is something that we
totally haven't done.

And animals are always super

when it comes to numismatics and themes and so forth.
But I really like seven.

I think it could

attract and I think it would be really, really super.
I like 13 as well, but I'm probably leaning more
towards seven because I think it could attract a whole

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new look to our series.

I think that the series as a

whole, as we try to diversify it as much as we can away
from, you know -- as tough as the parks have been, I
think we've done a pretty good job of trying to just
stay away from similar themes.
So this would be a theme that is totally -and of course, I have to like 10 because it has the
turtle in there, right?

So I'm leaning -- I'm leaning

strong with seven with some support for 10 and 13.
I really -- when I first saw it, as Heidi just
said, I liked 13 as a strong design.

But fish, we've

done a number of the fish and it's why I lean back
towards seven or 10.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

MS. LANNIN:
MR. HOGE:

Thanks, Tom.

Robert?

Thank you, Mary.

all attractive designs.

I think these are

I only can say that I have a

bit of a problem with both three and seven because of
too many shades of gray.

These are pieces that are

simply drawings.
Another question that I have is the anatomy of
the bats because if you look at number seven, number
nine, number 10 and number 12, these don’t look like

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they're the same species.

The structure of the wings

and their digits and the shapes of their heads are all
a little bit different.
I like them.
drawn.
not.

Well, what is going on here?

But they don’t seem to be correctly

Maybe one of them is and maybe the others are

And so, I would kind of wonder about that.
Number 12 looks like it's a little, you know,

19th century stuffed animal or something or maybe a
children's toy.

I do like number 13 because of the

wave element and the prominence of the fish.
I actually kind of like number nine because I
do like the juxtaposition of the realistic-looking bat
even if it might not be completely correct.

The head

looks like it's a lemur.
But the artwork of the stylized palm trees and
beach looks like it could be a little bit
characteristic of art forms from Polynesia, which I
kind of like too along with the realism of the bat.
I think this is a handsome group and I don’t
think we're going to go wrong with anything that we
suggest here.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

Jeanne, what would

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you like to add?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Thank you.

I'd like to

discuss number three, which is a liaison's choice.

And

this is the piece that just really hit me, other than
the bats.
I think that this is quite wonderful.

And if

we did choose this, I'm wondering if we can't just drop
some of that background out.
have the coral there.

I think it's important to

But these fish are quite nicely

done.
I think that there's just too much texture
behind them so that when it is reduced to a one-inch
coin, you won't be able to really see them.

And you

may confuse them with that big chunk of coral in the
background.
So I think that I'd go with this one.
that beautiful wave.

I love

It is so elegant and the

mountains above it, so many positive pieces of this
design that I'm sorry it didn't quite make it with the
fish.

So this may not -- this may not be our choice.
However, I'm going to go to the bats in number

seven.

I like this -- I like this piece very much.

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However, the bat wing on our right and the bat left
face, I mean, there's something really catawampus about
this bat.

The mom looks like she's okay.

looks like it was dropped somehow.
MS. LANNIN:

And I'm sorry --

Oh, dear.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
know?

But the kid

It got smashed, you

If you look at the eyes, they're not -MS. LANNIN:

Exactly.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

They're not symmetrical.

They're not sitting in the skull correctly.

And the

arm or the wing bits -- I mean, I can't discern if
that's broken or not.

So where this bat is really

wonderful and we don’t have a bat, we could have a
great bat.
But I'm thinking if the sculptor was going
from this drawing, we would have a bat that it's not
right.

It is not right.

And I'm not sure if you can

see where the part on the bat pup is totally dividing
two different heads.

So where that drawing came from,

I don’t know.
It's like not -- it's not the right -- it's
like a drawing from one bat and then a drawing from

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another bat and then they put it together.
comment on that one.

That's my

Number eight, which I think

really portrays Samoa, I love everything about this
piece.

So this probably will be my choice, even though

13 is kind of fun.

I'm not quite with that one.

And I must make a comment about number nine.
I shouldn't do this.
I'm sorry.

But it's the same as the horse.

Please, you know, pay attention, you know,

to the wing bits.

The first digital on that wing on

the lower part, that's not right.
MR. SCARINCI:

Something is wrong.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
You know, it's just not right.

There's a lot wrong.
It's like a -- it's

like a flag that fell off.
So I think when we're depicting animals, it's
a difficult thing for some people to do and I think
that some people work stronger with the human form and
some with the animal form.

This one is just not up to

par.
And I do agree with Robert.
12, now, this is a human bat form.
are almost correct.

The bat in number

Although the digits

I think that number 10 is kind of

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exciting because we do have a turtle there.

But again,

the bat, I don’t think that's a fruit bat and the bat
wing on the bat's right side -MR. SCARINCI:

There's something wrong.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
I mean, you can -- okay.

There's something wrong.

That's all I have to say.

Thank you, Madam Chair.
MS. LANNIN:

Our bat expert.

MR. SCARINCI:

Okay.

Donald?

So right now, right now Erik is

going batty.
MS. LANNIN:

It's late.

MS. STAFFORD:
MS. LANNIN:

He's been waiting to say that.

Erik, you have two people to come

up with a suitable pun.
MR. SCARINCI:

Continue, Donald.
You know, so here, on a serious

note, I mean, what's surprising me here -- and if I
have to get on my knees to do this, I'll get on my
hands to do this.
MR. TUCKER:

Please do.

MR. SCARINCI:

But you know, I mean, you know

what, what happens when we get so many good designs is,
you know, the great design is like we're talking about

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bats and we're talking about, you know -- and eight is
certainly nice.

I mean, you know, three is busy.

It's

not -- it's not really -- three and seven really aren't
in consideration, you know, in due respect, you know,
to the liaison.
And this is a parks quarter series, not a
commemorative series.

So the weight given to liaisons,

you know, for this series is different than the weight
given to people who have gone through Congress and
gotten the president to sign ab ill, right?
So just -- you know, as we keep referring to
the liaisons, and I just don't want to confuse, this is
not a commemorative coin program, right?
The coin that we all just like go crazy about,
you know, is 13.

Thirteen is an amazing coin.

how can we lose sight of 13?
have to do 13.

It is cool.

It's got to be 13.

It is the ultimately -- it

is the ultimate cool coin.
I think it's the best quarter design that I've
seen.

You know, it's innovative.

It's funky.

got the whole Samoa thing going on.
It's cool.

It's

It's got the fish.

I mean, we would be going crazy over 13 if

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it was in a different package with other designs, like
we've seen in the past.
For whatever reason, whatever they did to the
artists, this is just an incredible group of designs
that we've gotten, probably our best group of designs
as a group, you know, not for Samoa, but for all, the
whole package today.
You know, so here we are.

Like actually not

going crazy for 13, which would have been a unanimous
pick in any other package.
So I just -- if I have to beg to get 13, I'll
get to get 13.

You know, I know Dennis is probably

going to say it doesn't conform to whatever we talked
about, you know?
MR. TUCKER:

I like 13.

MR. SCARINCI:

I actually like 13.

You know, but 13 is the coin.

It's great.
MS. WASTWEET:

It's not a medal.

MR. SCARINCI:

It's a coin.

a great coin.
series.

It's a coin.

It's great.

It's probably the best in the whole

So 13, 13, 13, please.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

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MS. WASTWEET:
MR. URAM:

Wait, which one did you like?

The only thing I could say to that,

Don, is that, I agree, but wouldn't it be nice in
color?

I'll only say that.
MS. LANNIN:

right.

Oh, come on.

Cut it out.

All

Dennis?
MR. TUCKER:

Thank you.

I also like 13.

agree with you a hundred percent.
striking.

It's visually

It has special significance to American

Samoa.
So it's not just a pretty picture.
motion.

It has

It has a strong primary element in the

threadfin butterfly fish and a beautiful secondary
element in that tattooed wave spiral.
Ron, I think my only question would be for
that fine detail in the wave, would that translate to a
small coin format?
MR. HARRIGAL:
in analyzing this one.

Yeah.

We didn't go into depth

Obviously you've got a graphic

element in the back that's going to be more of a
flatter, more graphical type of look to it and the fish
will have lots of relief to it.

So I see a lot of

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laser treatment on here, you know, multiple frostings,
patterning.
We may have to do some depth difference on the
wave there so that we could polish the islands and
frost around.

But this one I think will work very

well.
MR. TUCKER:

Even for the circulation strike?

MR. HARRIGAL:
MR. TUCKER:

Yes.

Okay.

MR. HARRIGAL:

Well, what we would do is we

would have to put relief on the wave and patterning and
then we would do an overlay of texture and polish for
the proof coin.
MR. TUCKER:

Thanks, Ron.

Again, not to beat

a dead horse, I think we can -MS. WASTWEET:

Or bat.

MS. LANNIN:

Horses, bats, whatever.

MR. TUCKER:

We need to keep reminding our

artists that photographic detail is wonderful.
just does not translate into coin form.

But it

If your design

depends on subtlely nuanced detail like number three
does, we can pretty much dismiss it and your design

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won't really be considered.
As I was reviewing the portfolio, I wondered
if eight and nine might be too detailed.

I haven't

heard that from other committee members.
If our liaison is still on the line, if I'm
not mistaken, the National Park Service leases the land
of this national park rather than owning it outright.
And I think that's -- you know, that respects
the local customs and the family-based landholdings.
So I like the idea of including a person, an actual
American Samoan person.

So I do like eight, if -- Ron,

do you think that that could be sculpted and make a
good coin.
Number seven I think has good potential.
Obviously this sketch relies too much on shading.

But

if the Mint feels it could be translated effectively
through texture and depth, then the design itself is
iconic of American Samoa.
You know, it's got the -- it's got a strong,
bold element.

This would be known as the bat coin.

was going to say something about going to bat.
MR. SCARINCI:

Going to bat for the coin.

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MR. TUCKER:

Yeah.

MR. SCARINCI:

You've got to save something

for Erik.
MR. TUCKER:
like.

Yes, yes.

Number 12, I actually

I like number 12 and I'll tell you why.

There's

an unusual number of very active, movement-driven
designs in this portfolio, which I think is wonderful
and rather than just static or scenic designs, the
landscapes.
And to me, this flying bat is the most
dramatic of them.

It offers special context.

You

know, this is the flying fox, you know, is well-known
and attached to American Samoa.
native mammal.

It's the park's only

So it's a unique ambassador.

And this

design, in my opinion, manages to make it cute and
active without being too cartoonish.
I think I've heard arguments that, you know,
it looks like a rag doll or what have you.

The design

shows just enough background to -- you know, to provide
relevant context rather than just filling space.
And in my opinion, it was brave of the artist
to leave that large amount of white space to the right,

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again, instead of trying to fill every square
millimeter with activity and visual elements.

And that

white space to me emphasizes the illusion -contributes to the illusion of the bat's flight.

So I

think it's a good, active design.
Thirteen, it's -- you know, we all love it.
And you're absolutely right, Donald.
coin design.

This is a great

It would look good at the larger size and

as well as the smaller size.
And I appreciate -- I think, Heidi, you made
the comparison between 14 and three, saying that 14 is
an effective way to do what number three was trying to
do.
And Jeanne, I wonder if that -- you said that
you liked three.

Do you find 14 to be a good

alternative to the concept?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Yes, I do.

-- I think that 14 is very attractive.
fish.

I like the waves.

I think that

I like the

I'm not sure what it is that

I don’t feel the boldness, and I should.
And it just might be that in my packet, it's
blue.

And I don’t feel that the strength is there.

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But yeah, I can go with 14.
MR. TUCKER:

Well, and the reason that I

mention 14 is not -- I think of 13 and 14, the fishbased -- the strongly fish-based designs, obviously 13
wins as a coin design.
But I want to mention this into the record of
our proceedings because I think it's important for our
artists to hear this idea of like here's what we're
trying to do in number three and it fails, but here's
how it succeeds in 14.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. TUCKER:

Right.

So if we didn't have 13, then I

think 14 would be a very good candidate.

I'm kind of

torn here.
So, you know, I really like 12.
the only person who really likes 12.

I'm probably

I love 13.

And I

would be curious to hear our liaison's opinions about
eight.

I think eight was one of the preferences.

that right?
MS. STAFFORD:

Yes.

MS. LANNIN:

Yes.

Eight was --

MR. TUCKER:

And just talk about that a little

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bit, if there's any -- if there was ranking among the
three candidates and -MS. LANNIN:

That was number three.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. TUCKER:

That was number three.

That was the third.

Three, seven and eight I think

were the liaison preferences.
MS. STAFFORD:

Yes.

MS. WASTWEET:

Yeah.

MS. LANNIN:

In that order, yes.

MR. TUCKER:

Oh, that was the order?

MS. LANNIN:

Yeah.

MR. TUCKER:

So that was --

MR. BORDELON:

Yeah.

Okay.

I'd love to comment on

that, if that's okay.
MS. LANNIN:

Sure.

MR. TUCKER:

Please do.

MR. BORDELON:

Go ahead, Jason.

Okay, and I need you to do me a

favor.

Remind me -- I don’t have the images in front

of me.

I know them by heart but I need clues on each

of the ones.

So the three is the Pola Island divided

with the fish below?

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MS. LANNIN:

Correct.

MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

MR. BORDELON:

And we're talking about -- and

we're talking about seven, which is -MS. LANNIN:

Seven is the bat, the bat couple,

mom and pup.
MR. BORDELON:

And then the other one in

question is 13?
MS. LANNIN:

Is -- well --

MR. SCARINCI:

Eight.

MS. WASTWEET:

Eight.

MS. LANNIN:

Eight is the --

MR. BORDELON:
MR. TUCKER:

-- with the swirl?

But also 13, if you could speak

to 13, because there's such a committee preference for
that and it was not one of your preferences, if you
could also -MR. BORDELON:
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

I just -- okay.

MR. BORDELON:

Yeah, and remind me of what is

on eight again.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Eight is the older Samoan

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with the conch shell and the coconut palm above him.
MR. BORDELON:
that.

Okay.

Great.

Thank you for

In regards to number three, the elements that it

captures are pretty spot on in terms of Pola Island
being a registered national, national historic -- or
excuse me, national natural landmark as well as being a
part of the park here.
So in terms of the thematic elements and
representation, it's terrific.

It's a little bit of a

heartbreaker that it doesn't translate to a coin.
And I should start by saying we love all of
them.

We had enough review up to this point that

they're all our wonderful little children.

And

whichever one goes forth and prospers, we will be proud
of that.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

MR. BORDELON:

So while we have -- yeah.

While we have preferences, we understand the process
and have had enough input to feel good about whatever
moves forward.

So if number three is screened out due

to the -- due to the elements, then so be it.
But we really do -- the fish down below

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divided by the texture of the water or wave with Pola
Island above, I mean, I would say that, you know, I'm
fairly certain at this point there's no way to edit the
artwork.

But it's a shame that the one that is so spot

on, you know, just gets bumped really quickly due to it
not translating.

But that's fine.

Like I said, we are

excited about all of them.
Jumping to number seven, the fruit bat's a
very significant thing.

The thing that's most

striking, or at least to the park about this one, was
just the close-up and sort of the intimacy of this coin
in regards to the bat.
They're a very exotic animal.

And I was kind

of laughing to myself when someone brought up the idea
that the artist's rendering of the fruit bats look
different on some of the coins.

And I think that's

true and I think some of that is just by virtue of the
artist's style for drawing the animal.
But having lived here and actually looking out
my window and looking at fruit bats, none of them look
the same.

It is an incredibly dynamic, ever-changing

animal, upside-down, right side up, flying, crawling

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over branches.

And so, there is a really unique

challenge in creating an image of a fruit bat that is
biologically and anatomically consistent.
So that would make sense.

But that close-up,

intimate view of the fruit bat I think is what is
striking about that particular image and just that
exotic, sort of inquisitive nature of that animal.
And then, moving to number eight, and number
eight was the gentleman with the conch shell, that one
as well is -- that actual -- that actual thing of
blowing on the shell is a pretty significant gesture
here.
Like the presenter was saying, it indicates
curfew.

It can oftentimes indicate sa, which is sort

of a religious siesta that's taken in the afternoon.
So that one does have, you know, the cultural
significance and I love this idea of it being somewhat
of a siren call to the rest of the world.
And then, 13, we do love 13.

The biggest

challenge for us with 13 is that the American Samoan
art form of tattoo is a very unique and very personal - it's like any art form.

It's a very personal

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rendering in terms of the style that you use and the
artist.
So it was a challenge to create a Polynesian
tattoo image like that, that everyone could agree on
because everyone sees that type of Polynesian imagery
differently.
And there's a -- there's just an infinite
amount of ways to draw even a simple little wave like
that.

We do feel that the version you have on the coin

is broad enough to kind of represent the art form in a
genuine fashion.
I just -- I do think it's so ironic that if
you went back to the team, that would be the least one
that they would pick, which is totally okay.
But I just do find it interesting that you
guys love that one and that was the one that sort of
came in with not as much, you know, support.

But that

is -- like I said, you know, we love all of the images.
And I hope that helps.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

MS. STAFFORD:

Madam Chair, I'm sorry.

Just

because we do spend so much time pouring over these

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designs and ensuring that there's a way to translate
them into coin.

Could we just really quickly talk

about three and have Ron speak to what his intentions
were in terms of when his team analyzed that?
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. HARRIGAL:

So basically what we were

looking at here on number three, and we went back to
the artist a couple of times on this to get a little
more clarity under the water because, I mean, clearly
if you just did a graphical representation of what they
have there, it would be kind of a mess with everything.
We would definitely punch the fish up so you
would see them.

We would clarify the coral so it would

be recognizable as coral and the other -- the other
elements under the water.
So we can clean that up to make it look like
an actual representation of an underwater depiction
there.

So don’t take it totally graphically like it's

drawn there.

We will clean it up so that it is

definitely recognizable.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Ron.

Have you thought

of a suitable pun yet, Erik, that you'd like to --

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okay.

Then why don’t you talk about the designs?
MR. JANSEN:

It's fishy, right?

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. JANSEN:

You're up.

You're up to bat.

Being the last person means you

kind of get the role of the whip here.

So I'm going to

try to drive people into a few choices.
And a comment to the site representative, one
of the things you learn after doing a few of these
coins is coins and postcards are two different things
and better not confuse one for the other.
And so, images, whereas the drawing of the
bats in seven and largely the drawing in number three
would make lovely, fun postcards, they don’t work on a
coin.
And to the artists that drew them, please get
rid of the greyscales and let's focus on what can be
sculpted a little bit better.
design number eight.

I want to talk about

I like that design.

But somehow,

it just feels crowded to me.
And if I were laying that out, I would have
given a little more space between the palm trees and
the coconuts as the overhead mass and the man

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trumpeting the conch shell.

Just a preference of mine.

I'm hearing a pretty strong consensus for 13
and potentially 14 as an alternative to three.
think we have some great selections here.

But I

I really

enjoyed going through this set as much as any other set
we got this time.

But my support's for 13.

MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Erik.

And I'm going

to make all three of you guys very happy because when I
was doing research on this -- this is for number 13,
that many of us seem to like -- and Jason, correct my
pronunciation if this is incorrect.

Pe'a, P-E-'-A, is

the popular name of the traditional male tattoo of
Samoa.

Pe'a is also the Samoan word for flying fox or

fruit bat.

So here, we've got a --

MR. BORDELON:
MS. LANNIN:

That's correct.

See?

have a great coin design.

There we go.

So we can

We can get this kind of only

in the know actual bat that is very special and even
though all of the tattoos are unique, this tattoo is
possible.
This will make a fabulous coin, an absolutely
fabulous coin.

I would have to throw my vote to number

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13.

So that's all I have to say about it.
MS. STAFFORD:

Do we need to pass out the

scoring sheets?
MS. LANNIN:

Shall we pass out the scoring

sheets?
MS. STAFFORD:
MS. LANNIN:

Please.

MR. SCARINCI:
MS. LANNIN:

Yes.

Could I say one thing, just --

Okay.

MR. SCARINCI:

Sure, Donald.

And I just want to -- I just

want to say something about speaking to the artist of
number nine.

Right, because I think -- I think there's

merit in that design too.

I know Jeanne talked about

number nine.
I'm totally with 13.
confuse anybody.

So I don’t want to

I'm just -- I'm just -- I just want

to -- I just want to, you know -- since I'm kind of on
the heels of being chastised from an artist, I just
want to say I think I get what this artist was doing
with this piece.
And it wasn't -- the bat wasn't -- you know,
the bat -- you know, it doesn't appeal to you because

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it wasn't intentional.

I think it's an intentional --

I think the artist took liberties with the bat because
that's what they did with the little palm tree and the
little water display, you know.

I don’t think it's

intended to be representational.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. SCARINCI:

Go ahead.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
this discussion long.

I have to jump in there.

I don’t want to make

But --

MR. SCARINCI:

Because we're talking about

something that no one's going to vote for.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. SCARINCI:

I know.

No one's going to vote for

this.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

That's right.

No one's

going to -MR. SCARINCI:
MR. TUCKER:

Right.

I will.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
you.

I like the composition.

You will?

Oh, good for

I like the composition.

I like the fact that we have the bat, you know,
encompassing the island.

That's a very cool thing.

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The problem is the bat truly is wrong.

When you have

the naiveté of the palm trees that are, you know, sort
of tribal lines and stuff, that is okay.

That should

have been carried out in the bat form and then it would
have been okay.
But it's -- you know, they're trying to do
some realism in that bat.

And it doesn't come off

because the wings are wrong.

Everything's wrong.

can't accept that argument, Donald.
MR. SCARINCI:
MS. LANNIN:

MS. LANNIN:

Now that --

Can I --

Oh, sorry.

MS. WASTWEET:

Sorry.

That's the nicer Donald.

Okay.

MS. WASTWEET:

So I

Heidi?

Just one brief comment about

back at 13 again, and I want to -- having learned that
this was the liaison's last choice, I want to clarify
that the reason that we here like it so much is because
we can see what it's going to look like.
In our minds, we can imagine what it's going
to look like on the coin.

It's not about the drawing.

The drawing is actually a little simplistic.

But

because of our experience, we know that that's what's

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going to work the best on the extremely shallow and
small quarter.
And so, in that respect, I'm not all that
surprised that it's the liaison's last choice because
they're not used to doing that translation in the
imagination.
MR. SCARINCI:

Right.

Good

point.
MS. LANNIN:

But every kid that's got a tattoo

is going to pick this up.
MR. SCARINCI:
MS. LANNIN:

It's a great --

MR. SCARINCI:
MS. LANNIN:

It's a great coin.

It's a great design.

MR. SCARINCI:
coin.

Oh, this is a great coin.

People are going to love this

I love this coin.
MS. STAFFORD:

joining us.

So Jason, thank you so much for

We're going to be -- the individual

members will be scoring and turning in their
scoresheets.

We'll be tabulating.

You're welcome to

hang on the line or because it is so early there -MS. LANNIN:

Have another cup of coffee.

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MS. STAFFORD:

Yes.

We can always reach out

to you afterwards and report back to you the particular
scores for each design, whatever you prefer.
MR. BORDELON:

You know, I'm going to sign off

now and get my day started.
your input and insight.

But thank you so much for

And I look forward to hearing

your decision.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you so much, Jason.

MS. STAFFORD:

Thank you.

MR. BORDELON:

Thank you.

Bye-bye.

TALLGRASS PRAIRIE NATIONAL PRESERVE
MS. STAFFORD:

Moving on to Tallgrass Prairie

National Preserve in Kansas, this site encompasses
nearly 11,000 acres and Tallgrass Prairie National
Preserve is located in the heart of the Flint Hills,
the largest expanse of tallgrass prairie left in North
America.
Rich prairie soils made the region prime for
agricultural development.

Most of the tallgrass

prairie was converted to crop land within just a couple
of decades, making this once expansive landscape North
America's most altered ecosystem in terms of acres

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lost.

Of the roughly 4 percent that remains today,

most, about two-thirds, survives in the Flint Hills of
Kansas and Oklahoma.
Tallgrass Prairie is an incredibly diverse
ecosystem home to a vast variety of flora and fauna.
Grasslands birds like the greater prairie chicken,
which is a type of grouse, have lost much of its native
habitat and are of particular interest.
The site's preferences are seen here as design
one, two and three.

And with us today, we should have

via phone the superintendent of Tallgrass Prairie
National Service, Kristen Hase.
liaison.

Kristen is our

Kristen, would you like to say a few words to

the committee?
MS. HASE:

Yes.

Thank you, for one, letting

me listen in and be involved and, two, this has just
been an amazing experience.
designs were amazing.

And all of these quarter

Everybody at the park was just

really very, very pleased by the products that were
produced.
I think, you know, when we started this
quarter journey, we really wanted to sort of capture

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the essence of Tallgrass Prairie, the name.

We've got

some amazing cultural stories here as well.

But we

really kind of most of us favored the natural side.
That's our name.

And we really wanted

something that was going to -- you know, somebody in
another state was going to look at and think, wow, you
know, that's pretty cool, you know, in Kansas or
Tallgrass Prairie or something like that.
And I think that's definitely what's come out
in these quarters so beautifully.

I think that's

probably all I have to say right now.

But I'm here for

questions.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you so very much.

MS. STAFFORD:
the candidate designs.

Okay.

So we shall move through

Design one, which is again the

liaison's first preference, features a pair of greater
prairie chickens in the tallgrass, where their habitat
remains protected by the preserve.
Design two, again, the liaison's second
preference, depicts a greater prairie chicken hen and
two of her chicks emerging from a clump of big bluestem
grass in spring.

Design three, the liaison's third

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preference, features a male greater prairie chicken in
prairie grass while a female flies overhead.
Design four portrays a male greater prairie
chicken in its habitat.

The tallgrass prairie is

visible in the background.

Five depicts a male greater

prairie chicken nestled among the rolling hills of the
tallgrass prairie with a regal fritillary butterfly
perched on Indian grass.

I will note that that was our

liaison's fourth preference.
Design six showcases three of the many of the
wildflower species that grow in the preserve.

Features

left to right are gaura compassplant and blazing star,
with the rolling hills of the tallgrass prairie in the
background.

Design eight features a regal fritillary

butterfly landing on a wavy leaf thistle bloom.

In the

background is an outcrop of limestone found in the
preserve.
Nine shows a skyward view of a regal
fritillary butterfly against a background of big
bluestone and Indian grasses iconic to Tallgrass
Prairie.

Design 10 features big bluestem grass waving

in the prairie winds.

This species, which can grow to

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a height of six to eight feet, with its root system
growing just as deep underground, is largely
responsible for the formation of the famous prairie
sod.

It gets its name because the stem turns blue or

purple as it matures.
Design 11 depicts a dickcissel songbird
perched on a purple cone flower, one of over 300
species of wildflowers found on the tallgrass prairie.
The sloping hills of the prairie are seen in the
background.
MS. LANNIN:
look contemplative.

Thank you, April.

Heidi, you

What would you like to talk about?

MS. WASTWEET:

Coincidentally, just a week

ago, I was in a museum and I saw a taxidermied specimen
of the prairie chicken.

And it's quite a spectacular

bird and I think it's a really great subject for this
coin.

But these designs I think, they all have some

little -- something missing.
I'll start with design number one.

Like we've

been talking about all day, we're looking at designs,
not drawings.
design.

And there must be a clarity to the

And while this is drawn very nice, that

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texture of grass behind the bird's head, which should
be the focus of the design, is going to get camouflaged
there.
And so, there is no clarity around the most
characterful part of the bird.

And that's unfortunate

because it is such an interesting bird.

And it could

have been done in a way that was much more clear.

while this is a nice drawing, I'm picturing this in my
mind as a coin and it's just getting lost.
And it's going to be -- when people pick this
up out of their change drawer and out of their pocket
and they glance at it, they're not going to see
anything but just a bunch of texture.
In design number two, this depicting the
female is not as distinctive as depicting the male.
And so, it immediately loses my interest.

In design

number three, here we have some clarity around the head
of the bird.
The flying bird looks a little stubby in the
wings.

I don’t know if that's accurate or not.

it's not very attractive, the flying version.
the main bird.

But

I like

And the other thing that is off to me

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here is the tallgrass is not very tall.

It's a short

grass prairie.
And then, in design four, this is my favorite
of the prairie chicken designs.

It's very stylized in

the representation of the different lengths of grass,
which I think is fun.
And then, the bird itself displays all of the
distinct characteristics that make it unique.
bold.

And it's

And there's clarity in the negative space around

it and the negative space is balanced very well.
So, of the prairie chicken designs, this is by
far my favorite.

And it is conspicuously not on the

list of liaison preferences.
about that.

So I'm a little confused

Design five --

(Sirens sounding.)
MS. LANNIN:

You're surrounded by sirens,

MR. TUCKER:

It's you, Heidi.

Heidi.

MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:

Is it me?

Is it just me?

I don’t know.

MS. WASTWEET:

It's you.

Go Caps.

Design five, it has no focus.

There's too much going on.

Our attention is divided.

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It's not size-appropriate.
talking about that one.
at a design.

So I just can't go on

Design six is a good attempt

But I think it lacks a subject matter

that I can really get my teeth into.
One of my favorites is design nine.

I think

this is so bold and it speaks exactly to what I imagine
a tallgrass prairie.

Yu have the bluestem grass, which

is so distinctive, the lightness of the butterfly.
You have something that is really difficult to
display in sculpture and that is wind.
got an element of weather and wind.

And so, it's

You can imagine

the sun in this.
So there's a lot going on that you don’t see,
but it's implied.
action.

And it's really fun and it's got

And when this is held in the hand, it's going

to be very clear what it is.

And it's going to be very

attractive.
My other favorite is design 11.

Here, we have

the grasses represented and the flowers and the rolling
hills in the background.

But yet, it's not too busy.

It's just enough detail that it's going to be sizeappropriate for both the small and the large and then

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that wonderful negative space around the main subject,
the bird, who's cheerfully singing away.
So not only do we have the visual, we've got a
sound element going on here.
sculpt, sound.

Talk about hard to

We've got wind and sound and sun.

And

I think this is fabulous and it would look great.

And

I'm disappointed that my two favorites are not the
liaison favorites.
MS. STAFFORD:

I should note this design 11

was the liaison's fifth preference.
MS. WASTWEET:

Fifth?

MS. STAFFORD:

I mean, well, they were tied.

There were five that were named and out of the packet.
MS. WASTWEET:

Okay.

That's good.

That

concludes my comments.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. HOGE:
what Heidi has said.

Okay.

Robert?

I really would like to reiterate
I like number nine probably the

best, just because of the imagery of capturing the
lightness of the sky with the grass.

And you just -- I

think this really does it.
It's very unusual.

It's kind of a thing you

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just don’t even expect to see on a coin.

It doesn't

require a great deal of relief because of the delicacy
of the images.

And I think that it does a great job.

I like the prairie chickens.

I like the accuracy of

the designs.
I agree with Heidi that number four does it
best for me and I wonder why this was not one of the
committee preferences.
designs.

These are all attractive

And I really do like number 11 also for the

same reasons.

Thank you.

MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Jeanne?

Thank you.

that I like number four because it's bold.
with Heidi.

I must say
And I agree

We have different lengths of grass around

or behind the bird.

This is I think pretty accurate.

And John, I can't really complain about this one.
MS. WASTWEET:

Darn.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

So congratulations to

whoever did this.
MS. LANNIN:

Everybody's looking around, just

-MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

So I think it would be

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really beautiful.

It has a lot of texture.

think it would show up nicely on a coin.

And I

And the --

his cheeks are going to -- or the puffs that he has
there are going to really polish up nicely.

I think

this could be extremely attractive.
And I have to agree also on number nine.
simple.

It's

It says prairie without really showing it.

Unfortunately, on number one, two and three, which are
the preferences, I think there's just kind of too much
information, especially on number two.
So where number one could possibly be a great
coin, I think number four surpasses it.
I have to say.

So that's all

Thank you.

MS. LANNIN:
forget about Tom.
MR. URAM:

Thank you.

I don’t want to

Tom, what would you like to say?
Thanks, Madam Chair.

When I looked

at these, originally I gravitated to number nine, both
for the simplicity of it and I don’t think that we've
done a butterfly in particular just looking as far as
the series, so I'm always looking in that perspective.
But I also did like number five because I
think it's separated enough.

What bothered me about

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one, two, three and four was our past.

It reminds me

of the minting of the lion's club and the cubs because
once it differentiates, it would be the frosting
differentiation.

When it's struck up, will it look too

much like a claw?
So as much as I like number one, I just worry
how it's going to look when it's struck, unless we can
add some deviation or differentiation between the
animals, or in this case, the birds.
least there's only two quarters.

I'm sorry.

On the lion, there

was three.
So I think the simplicity of number nine is
where I'm going to end up, although I did like the
number five.

It just fits the perspective and it does

get in what the stakeholder would like.
So I think from a perspective of curiosity and
what this can do for the series, I want to go with
number nine, I think.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thanks, Tom.

Donald?

Fading in

the grass?
MR. SCARINCI:

I couldn't get that.

Again,

you know, all these -- these are just like -- they're

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all good, right?

So you know, if we saw number nine in

a vacuum or if we saw number nine two months ago, we'd
have jumped on number nine, right?

I mean, if we saw

it four months ago, you know, we would have jumped on
number nine.

But it's in competition with so many good

designs, right?
I'm still going with number nine because I
think it's the best design.

You know, and I think it's

-- I think it would make a really cool quarter.

Look,

the liaison can't possibly know -- you know, none of
the liaisons could, even the commemorative coin
liaisons could know -MS. WASTWEET:

Yeah.

MR. SCARINCI:

-- you know, because they don’t

look at enough of this stuff.

They can't.

So yeah, one, two and

three that they chose, you know, they would be at the
bottom of my list.
Great designs.
designs.

I'm not criticizing any of the

But they wouldn't be my -- they wouldn't be

my number one, two and three choice.

But I could

understand why, you know, the liaison thinks that they
were number one, two and three.

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Four is a great design.

I mean, because look,

our message has always been, you know -- or has since
we've kind of gelled with our message to the artists on
these small -- on these small palettes, you know, we've
told them please give us -- you know, give us focus on
one thing, one design element.
That's what we're saying very consistently now
to the artists.

Show us one prominent design feature.

You can only communicate one thought.
writing a blog post really.

It's like

You know, you know, 300

words, you can write one thought.

That's it.

And if

you try to write more than one thought, it's a very bad
blog post.
Well, you know, if you do more than one thing
on a coin, on a quarter size coin, it is a very bad
coin, right?

It's just not going to -- it's just not

going to -- it's just not going to be powerful.
losing your power.

You're

You want to communicate in the

simplest possible way.
This does it.
they're nice.

I mean, nine does it.

Look,

You know, four does it and I could see,

you know, four is really, you know, technically great.

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And of all of the ones with the -- what are they
called?
MS. WASTWEET:

Prairie chickens.

MR. SCARINCI:

Prairie chickens.

With all of

the prairie chickens, four is -- you know, works best
because it's focusing on this one prairie chicken.
And when Jeanne says it's anatomically good
and correct, you know, that's an ultimate compliment
for whatever artist did this.

So now, Dennis is going

to tell me why we told them something else, right?
But you know -- but I think I'm going to go
with number nine because I think it's -- I think it's - I think it'll be a great quarter.

I think Ron can

have fun with it, you know, Ron's people can have fun
with it and it could really be something.
MS. LANNIN:

Thanks, Donald.

MR. TUCKER:

Thank you.

That's it.

Dennis?

I'll talk just a

little bit about some of my number two choices.
Number 11, I did not like at first and it's
because I doubted whether a purple coneflower would
support the resting weight of a songbird.

But then, I

popped online, as one does, and I saw that in fact

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these birds do, you know, rest on these flowers.
So, and I mention this not to illustrate my
own ignorance but to show our artists that, you know,
these are the types of things that we'll be curious
about and that we'll push back on and we will question.
And, you know, if I hadn't found any evidence
or talked to experts who convinced me that flowers can
support songbirds, then this would not have been a
contender for me.
As it is, I think I agree.
it's a beautiful, charming picture.
Heidi said.

It's a very -It's got sound, as

You know, this bird is very happy and I

think it's a strong contender.
Number nine is wonderful.
portrays motion.

It's elegant.

Again, that's a dimension that we

don’t always see in these coin designs.

This grass

could have been shown standing upright, which would
have been very boring and would have taken that
dimension away from the design.
But instead, it's gently swaying in the wind
and that illusion of movement is carried forward by the
butterfly's flight path.

So it's

a simple design.

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But it's strong.

And I think it's a good use of the

small canvas that we're working with.

So I really like

nine.
Number eight I think is significant because we
all knew the challenges of this site going in.

And I

think the artist did a great job responding to those
challenges.

And one of the challenges was how to

portray the height of tallgrass.
You know, we've been told that it can grow up
to six feet tall.
these designs.

And we don’t see that in a lot of

But with these thistles in number

eight, we at least get some sense of that height.

eight stood out for me as well.
But then, my strongest -- so those were my
secondary choices.

My strongest primary choice would

be number four and that's because finally we will have
a quarter with a single, bold animal, you know, like
the wolf quarter, the bat quarter.
greater prairie chicken quarter.

This would be the

So my --

(Laughter.)
MS. LANNIN:

The world famous.

MR. TUCKER:

But my --

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MR. JANSEN:

Powerful, powerful.

MR. TUCKER:

My question for our liaison would

be why did you chicken out.

On number four, why was

number four not in the running, whereas one, two, three
and four were.

Is there something that we're missing?

MS. HASE:

Can I answer that?

MS. LANNIN:

Yes.

MS. WASTWEET:
MR. TUCKER:
MS. HASE:
wrong.

Yes, please.

Yeah.

So we like it.

Don't get us

But there's something about the angle of it and

we were concerned by the time it gets to the size of a
quarter, it's going to look like a turkey, a wild
turkey instead of a prairie -MR. JANSEN:
MS. HASE:

It will.

And so, the others are more

straight on, you know, more side and this one's kind of
twisted a little bit.

And so, it's only because of the

angle of this bird.
Just we thought, you know, when it gets small,
people are going to just -- when they glance at it,
they're going to think, yeah, it's just a wild turkey

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or something.

And so, that was really -- it's a

beautiful bird.

But that was why it was one of our

least favorite of the chickens.
MR. TUCKER:

Okay.

So --

Well, in that case, then

my -- that would swing my strongest support to number
nine then.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Thank you, Dennis.

Erik?

MR. JANSEN:

If I were printing an Audubon,

I'd be picking one, two, three and four and maybe five
as a sidelight.

But Audubon worked in large pages and

very large printed frames, not in a one-inch coin.
So I'm really concerned that the very
excitement of the details of the prairie chicken will
in fact look like a turkey.

And to me, that kind of

wastes the opportunity here to send a more distinctive
and inviting signal to anybody who would examine this
coin and say tell me about the tallgrass prairie.
Design number nine is -- I mean, I can feel
the wind in my face when I look at that.
I can hear the noise of that.

I can hear --

The lightness of the

grass, the seeds in the wind and the butterfly who's
negotiating all of it through that wind is just

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compelling to me.
I liked design 10.

But when you compare it to

nine, it just feels like a calm day, which isn't the
norm.

I end up on design nine because that's the one

that leaves me wanting to know more.
MR. LANNIN:

Thank you, Erik.

pretty much what everybody has said.
favorite.

I agree with

Nine is my

In addition to sort of the lightness of it,

the negative space reminds you -- at least it reminds
me of how limitless the prairies were.

So it could go

on forever, which is what we're trying to acknowledge.
And my close second might be the number 11
because I think the bird is celebrating living there.
And it does have the element of song to it.

But nine

is just a wonderful design and that will be my choice.
Heidi has something to say.
MS. WASTWEET:

Just one follow-up.

Dennis

said something that made a little lightbulb go off for
me.
Another reason why I like number nine, you
were saying about the challenge of portraying the
height of the grass.

And this, because we're looking

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at the underside of the butterfly is why it works so
well and it makes the grass look tall.
MR. TUCKER:

Yeah.

MS. WASTWEET:

And I hadn't really articulated

that until you said that.

So I just wanted to point

that out.
MS> LANNIN:
comments?

Thank you all.

Any other

Jeanne, did you want to say something?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Yes.

To go back to

number four, I understand our liaison's concern about
it looking like a turkey.

However, when you think of a

parrot looking like a canary, I feel that there's so
much difference between a prairie chicken and a turkey.
And I say this because I live with the turkeys
in Pennsylvania.

They're very huge birds and very,

very long-legged and long-necked and a giant tail.

I think that people who would hold this in their hand
would not necessarily confuse it with a turkey.
We do have a turkey quarter, which is quite
stunning and fills the canvas.

And it would be so

wonderful to have another bird so different and in a
different environment.

So I'm still sticking with

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number four.

Sorry.

MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Jeanne.

So I think we

can pass our voting sheets around and -MS. WASTWEET:

Does the liaison have any other

-MS. LANNIN:

Does the liaison have any other -

- thank you, Heidi -- anything else to add to all of
this?
MS. HASE:

I don’t think so.

MS. STAFFORD:

Great.

Kristen, we'll probably

take a few minutes' break to score and add up -- tall
up the scores.

You're welcome to stay on the line and

hear what the results are or we can reach out to you
separately.

It should be about five or 10 minutes.

MS. HASE:

Oh, okay.

Maybe you can reach back

-- reach out to me a little bit later.
to get off.

I probably need

So --

MS. STAFFORD:

Okay.

All right.

Thank you

for joining us.
MS. HASE:

Thank you.

MS. LANNIN:
MS. HASE:

Thank you for joining us.

Thank you.

Bye.

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MS. STAFFORD:

Bye-bye.

(Whereupon, the foregoing went off the record
at 2:57 p.m., and went back on the record at
2:59 p.m.)
MS. LANNIN:

We spent so much time going

through so much great art.

I mean, it was -- it was

very, very pleasurable today.
MR. JANSEN:

Thank you.

Well, Donald's comment about make

a single point -MS. LANNIN:

Yes.

MR. JANSEN:

And I think Heidi's points of

using an appropriate symbol effectively so the negative
space, we're starting to get that.
MS. LANNIN:

Yeah.

MR. JANSEN:

And it makes -- it makes our job

so much more fun.

So thank you for that.

MS. LANNIN:

Well, thank you.

So while we are

tabulating the very last, if you like, I can read our
vote totals for the Tuskegee Airmen.

Our choice seems

to be number one, which received 18 votes.
received one.
received zero.

Number four received zero.

Number two
Number six

Number eight received zero.

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Number

Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Public Meeting (06/12/18)
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nine received one, 10a, zero, 10b, zero, 10d, zero.
Design 12 received one and design 13 received 15.

the number one was number one and the number two
position was design 13.
Okay.

For American Samoa, design -- ready?

You're clicking through everything.
There we go.

Number three received six points.

four received two.

Number five received one.

seven, our bats, received 10.
seven.

American Samoa.
Number

Number

Number eight received

Number two received -MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:

Sorry about that.
received five.

Two.

-- or number nine received two.

Number 10 received six.

Number 12

And the hands down winner, with 22

votes, was number 13, with 22.
MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:

Wow.

And number 14 received 10.

Tallgrass Prairie, this is a very efficient group we
have here.

Design number one, zero.

two, zero.

Design number three, one vote.

number four, 12.
number six, zero.

Design number
Design

Design number five, zero.
Design number eight, one.

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Design

Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Public Meeting (06/12/18)
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number nine, and the clear winner, 23 votes.
number 10, zero.

And design number 11, 11.

Design
So that

was -- it was very cut and dry for Tallgrass Prairie
and for American Samoa and less so for the Tuskegee
Airmen.
MR. SCARINCI:

Is this the first grouping of

coin designs that the new director -- that we're
sending to the new director?
MS. LANNIN:

It is?

Yes.

MR. SCARINCI:

So I think -- I think this is

really a wonderful -- like maybe it's fate.

I mean, I

think we're starting in a wonderful way with the new
director.
And I think, you know, this may very well be
our most powerful group of national park quarters in
the entire program.

And it's really I think a good

omen that it's starting under the watch -MS. LANNIN:

Yes.

MR. SCARINCI:

-- of the first confirmed

director since 2012.
MS. LANNIN:
tremendous day.

I think -- I think we've had a

I really do.

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MR. SCARINCI:
MS. LANNIN:

I do too.

So, thank you all.

Do we have

any other discussions that we'd like to have?

Any

other statements?
MR. SCARINCI:
think I can say this.
MS. LANNIN:

I think I can say this.

It's not terribly controversial.
Okay.

MR. SCARINCI:

I think, you know, it's

important that the artists not go away after this
stage.

And I know you're involved in the artists

during the process of the sculpt for sure and the
artist looks hopefully -- I think looks at the sculpt
that you do.
And then, it goes -- then from the sculpt, it
goes to another phase where maybe the artist needs to
continue to just look at it again.

You know, and I'm,

you know, just concerned, you know, and I think Heidi,
you know, pointed out this afternoon, you know, the
lions as well, that, you know, don’t quite have the
punch.
The actual coin doesn't quite have the same -have the punch of the design.

And that happened again

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with the angry versus empowered women in the breast
cancer coin.

You know, and I wrote a piece about that,

you know, saying what we looked at.

And there's a

subtle difference between anger and empowerment.
a subtle difference.

It's

And you could see it in the hands

and the fists.
So we kind of lost -- we kind of lost what was
really amazing about that coin I think.
coin.

Still a great

I mean, but could have been a greater coin.
You know, and maybe it's a matter of -- you

know, maybe it's a matter of getting the artist -keeping the artist in the loop until that coin actually
-- you know, until that coin actually gets on those
presses and the presses roll.
So that's all I wanted to say.
deal.

I mean, no big

But, you know, I think -- I think, you know, I

just hate to see a great design lose it at the end.
You know, and sometimes the design gets it at
the end.

I mean, I think sometimes a design pops at

the end.

So it goes both ways.

But anyway, I just --

that's all.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

And if I can just add a

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little bit to the breast cancer coin, when we were
choosing that design, we looked to the liaison for
their preference.
And this was a huge, difficult coin to design
because of the sensitivity of the subject matter.

And

I think that the drawing really had what the liaison
wanted and what we thought was powerful.

And it's a

shame that we lost it somewhere along the way.
So I think that there are times when we really
do need to have the input of the stakeholders because - and especially in that case.
You know, they wanted to move that coin along
and it was supposed to be one of hope and
encouragement.
there.

And unfortunately, we missed the mark

So I am sorry.
MS. LANNIN:

If there are no further comments,

thank you all for coming.
productive day.

I think we've had a really

If somebody would like to make a

motion to adjourn?
MR. HOGE:

I'll so move.

MR. LANNIN:
that?

Robert.

Erik, thank you.

Anyone like to second

And I will see you all in

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October.

Happy summer, everybody.
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. HOGE:

Yes.

See you in August, we hope.

MS. LANNIN:

In August, exactly.

MS. STEVENS-HOLLMAN:
MR. SCARINCI:

August.

In August.

(Whereupon, the meeting was concluded.)

* * * * *

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CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC
I, MICHAEL FARKAS, the officer before whom the
foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby certify that
the proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter
reduced to typewriting under my direction; that said
proceedings are a true and accurate record to the best
of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither
counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the
parties to the action in which this was taken; and,
further, that I am not a relative or employee of any
counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor
financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of
this action.

MICHAEL FARKAS
Notary Public in and for the
District of Columbia

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CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER

I, BENJAMIN GRAHAM, do hereby certify that this
transcript was prepared from audio to the best of my
ability.

I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed
by any of the parties to this action, nor financially
or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action.

June 19, 2018

___________________

DATE

Benjamin Graham