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Capital Reporting Company D E PARTMENT OF THE TREASURY UNITED STATES MINT C I T I Z E N S COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE PUBLIC MEETING Tuesday, July 8, 2014 United States Mint 8 0 1 9th Street, NW, Room 5N16 Washington, D.C. Reported by: C hristine Allen, C apital Reporting Company 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 1 Capital Reporting Company A P P E A R A N C E S CCAC MEMBERS: G A R Y M A R K S , C H A IRMAN ERIK JANSEN DONALD SCARINCI HEIDI WASTWEET MIKE MORAN D R . M I C H A E L B U G EJA J E A N N E S T E V E N S -SOLLMAN ROBERT HOGE MARY LANNIN TOM URAM US MINT: BETTY BIRDSONG MATT BOHAN SHARON BOWEN TOM DINARDI DON EVERHART JEAN GENTRY FRANK MORRIS LATEEFAH SIMMS APRIL STAFFORD MEGA SULLIVAN WILLIAM NORTON GREG WEINMAN ALSO PRESENT: L E S P E T E R S , C O I N UPDATE P A U L G ILK E S , C O IN WORLD M I K E U N S E R , C O I N NEWS 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 2 Capital Reporting Company 3 A G E N D A Page 1. D i s c u s s i o n of design direction for American F i g h t e r A c e s Congressional Gold Medals Program, A p r i l S t a f f ord 5 D r . G r e g g W agner 7 Discussion 2. 12 D i s c u s s i o n of design direction for Civil Air P a t r o l C o n g ressional Gold Medals Program, 3. A p r i l S t a f f ord 42 J o h n S w a i n , Civil Air Patrol 43 Discussion 47 D i s c u s s i o n of design direction for Doolittle T o k y o R a i d e rs Congressional Medals Program , A p r i l S t a f f ord 66 B r i a n A n d e r son, Doolittle Tokyo Raiders 67 Discussion 75 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 4 P R O C E E D I N G S (1:02 p.m.) M R . M A RKS: I’m going to go ahead and call t h i s m e e t i n g t o order of the CCAC for July 8, 2014. A s G r e g j u s t m e ntioned, I want to encourage e v e r y o n e t o p l e ase remember to identify yourselves when you talk. I d i d get a comment from a member of t he p r e s s y e s t e r d a y saying for our last phone meeting, i t w a s r e a l l y d ifficult to keep up with who was saying what. S o , I know it might begin to feel inan e to y o u , b u t f o r c l arity of the meeting, I just want to r e a l l y s t r e s s t hat everyone continue to identify themselves. I f you don’t, I may just say name, and w i t h t h a t , I h o pe it will clue you in to identify yourself. S o , b e fore we get going, I do want to p r o v i d e a n o p p o rtunity for members of the press to i d e n t i f y t h e m s e lves so we know who is here with us. I f t h e re are any members of the press, w o u l d y o u p l e a s e speak up now. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company M R . G I LKES: 5 Paul Gilkes, Coin World. M R . U N SER: Mike Unser, Coin News. M R . M A RKS: Anyone else? ( N o r e sponse.) M R . M A RKS: Okay. g o a h e a d a n d p r oceed. phone. Hearing none, we wi ll We do have a quorum on the I ’ l l j u st ask the staff, is there anything m o r e w e n e e d t o cover before we get into the body of the meeting? M S . S T AFFORD: No, I don’t believe so, G a r y , o t h e r t h a n to request that anybody who is p a r t i c i p a t i n g , if you could mute your phones unless you’re speaking. M R . M A RKS: going on this. Okay; all right. Let’s ge t We have three design discussions f o r t o d a y , a l l concerning Congressional Gold Medals. M R . M A RKS: The first one is a medal f or A m e r i c a n F i g h t e r Aces. April, are you prepared to g i v e u s a r e p o r t on that? M S . S T AFFORD: introduction. Sure, just a brief It is Public Law 113- 105 that 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 6 a u t h o r i z e s t h e award of a Congressional Gold Medal t o t h e A m e r i c a n Fighter Aces collectively, in r e c o g n i t i o n o f their heroic military service in d e f e n s e o f o u r country’s freedom throughout the h i s t o r y o f a v i a tion warfare. I s h o u ld note for anyone who might not k n o w , t h e A m e r i can Fighter Aces are pilots credited w i t h d e s t r o y i n g five or more enemy aircraft in aerial combat. More than 60,000 fighter pilots h a v e f l o w n s i n c e World War I, but fewer than 1,500 a r e c a l l e d “ F i g hter Aces.” A s t h e legislation does not specify wh at t h e m e d a l ’ s d e s igns should include, we are here to d i s c u s s d e s i g n elements to be considered by artists w o r k i n g o n t h i s program. W i t h u s today, we have Dr. Gregg Wagne r, a m e m b e r o f t h e B oard of Directors of the American F i g h t e r A c e s A s sociation. Dr. Wagner provided the b a c k g r o u n d i n f o rmation on the American Fighter A c e s , a n d t h e C CAC received this in advance of our meeting today. R a t h e r than reading that into the reco rd, 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 7 a s I k n o w a l l t he members have received it and a l r e a d y r e v i e w e d it, I’d like to ask Dr. Wagner, w o u l d y o u l i k e to tell us some information about t h e A m e r i c a n F i ghter Aces and highlight your t h o u g h t s o n w h a t the Congressional Gold Medal d e s i g n s h o u l d c onvey? D R . W A GNER: Yes. This is Gregg Wagne r w i t h t h e A m e r i c an Fighter Aces Association, member o f t h e B o a r d o f Directors, and also I am the person w h o w r o t e t h e b ill and saw it to fruition by g e t t i n g a l l t h e co-sponsors in Congress. J u s t a little bit of background on the A m e r i c a n F i g h t e r Aces. The American Fighter Ace c o m e s f r o m f o u r wars, World War I, World War II, K o r e a , a n d V i e t nam. I n W o r ld War I, the United States had s l i g h t l y o v e r 1 00 Fighter Aces. World War II, the U n i t e d S t a t e s b y far had the most with over 1,300. I n t h e K o r e a n W ar, we had exactly 40, and in V i e t n a m , w e h a d exactly two. M o s t l ikely the United States will nev er s e e a n o t h e r F i g hter Ace again because of how wars 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 8 a r e f o u g h t i n t he sky today and because of the air s u p e r i o r i t y t h a t we enjoy over the skies of w h e r e v e r t h e r e might be a conflict. T o d a y , there are only approximately 94 A c e s s t i l l a l i v e, and I say “approximately” because b a s i c a l l y t h e y are all in their 90s and we’re l o s i n g t h e m p r e tty fast. I t h i n k this medal represents a lot of c h a l l e n g e s i n t erms of its design in the sense that t h e A m e r i c a n F i ghter Ace came from, as I mentioned, f o u r d i f f e r e n t wars, and as you will see on your s h e e t , t h e A m e r ican Fighter Ace in each war, in W o r l d W a r I , t h ere are major planes that they flew, s u c h a s t h e N e w port and the SPAD, which are the p r i m a r y a i r c r a f t, but there were Ace makers in o t h e r a i r c r a f t as well. In World War II, the A m e r i c a n F i g h t e r Ace, there were major aircraft t h a t t h e y f l e w again, but there were a lot more of them. I t h i n k there are going to be a lot of d e s i g n c h a l l e n g es associated with the World War II aspect for sure. I look forward to everyone’s 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 9 t h o u g h t s o n h o w to try to narrow that down. I n K o r ea, I think representing the Kor ean A c e s o n t h i s m e dal will be a little easier because t h e K o r e a n A c e s from the United States only flew o n e a i r c r a f t , a nd that is the F- 86 Sabre Jet. They r e a l l y o n l y h a d one enemy, which was the MiG- 15. I t h i n k representing that war is a lit tle b i t e a s i e r , a n d the same thing with the Vietnam W a r , A m e r i c a o n ly had two Aces, one from the Air F o r c e a n d o n e f rom the Navy. Both Aces flew the F- 4 P h a n t o m , a n d both Aces downed the MiG as their enemy aircraft. S o , t h ey also flew--talking about part s of t h e w o r l d , i n W orld War I, that air war occurred m a i n l y o v e r F r a nce. I think geographically s p e a k i n g , a n y r epresentation over where that war m i g h t h a v e o c c u rred on the medal, I think might be a little easier. I n W o r ld War II, that was more of a gl obal c o n f l i c t i n t e r ms of land mass, where the United S t a t e s N a v y w a s out on carriers in the South P a c i f i c , r a n g i n g from Midway Island all the way to 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 10 J a p a n a n d a l l i slands in between, but still, that m i g h t b e e a s y t o represent. A s f a r as the Army Air Corps as the Ai r F o r c e w a s c a l l e d during World War II, I might also a d d t h a t i n W o r ld War I, the Air Force was called t h e “ U S A S , ” w h i ch is United States Air Service. In W o r l d W a r I I , t oday’s Air Force was called the “ U . S . A r m y A i r Corps,” and until 1947, I think, w h e n o f f i c i a l l y the Air Corps changed its name to t h e “ A i r F o r c e ” and became a separate branch of the military. H e n c e , all Aces after that, I guess yo u c o u l d s a y a r e o fficially U.S. Air Force Aces. G e t t i n g back to the difficulty of the W o r l d W a r I I A c es and the Army Air Corps, in that t h e y f o u g h t i n the battle of Britain, they fought i n D -D a y , t h e y fought over France, they fought over G e r m a n y , t h e y f ought in North Africa, they fought i n C h i n a , t h e y fought in the South Pacific, they f o u g h t i n A u s t r alia, they fought in New Guinea, Iwo J i m a , a n d a l l i slands basically in the South Pacific. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 11 I d i d make some attempts to try to tig hten t h e g e o g r a p h i c areas up by providing some maps that m i g h t b e u s e d o n the coin design. There was a c o l o r e d m a p t h a t I included that might be modified t o b e u s e d o n t he coin. O t h e r than that, let’s see, I did have one i d e a t h a t w o u l d only be for one side of the coin, a n d t h a t i s t o represent--sort of divide the front o f t h e c o i n i n t o four quadrants, call it, and r e p r e s e n t s a y t he country of France, which is where t h e W o r l d W a r I Aces flew, and maybe show a biplane t h a t s y m b o l i z e s the two major aircraft that the A c e s f l e w i n t h at country. T h e n i n the second quadrant, let’s sta rt w i t h t h e t o p a n d go from the top left to the top r i g h t , l e t ’ s g o to World War II and maybe show a m a p o f E u r o p e , and then part of China and part of t h e S o u t h P a c i f ic. Maybe show some emblematic a i r c r a f t t h a t f lew in the different parts of the w o r l d t h a t m a d e Aces over those geographic areas. I n t h e bottom right quadrant, show the K o r e a n A c e s a n d show them fighting over basically 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 12 w a s k n o w n a s “ M iG Alley,” which is the Yalu River, w h i c h b o r d e r s K orea and China. I n t h e bottom left quadrant, show the F- 4 P h a n t o m , m a y b e show its adversary, the MiG- 21, and s h o w t h e c o u n t r y they fought over, which Was Vietnam. T h a t i s just a very broad idea that I had. I t h i n k t h e r e a re a lot of challenges with this p a r t i c u l a r m e d a l, but I look forward to your ideas as well. I t h i nk that is about all I had. M S . S T AFFORD: Thank you very much. J ust t o l e t y o u k n o w , Mr. Chairman, we have Les Peters f r o m C o i n U p d a t e joining us here in D.C., in the r o o m t h a t w e a r e convening in, just for your information. I ’ l l t urn it over to you for further discussion. A s you can see on this particular p r o g r a m , i t i s very much wide open. There is a lot o f m a t e r i a l t o be represented on both sides of this m e d a l , s o w e e a gerly await your input. M R . M A RKS: Thank you very much, April . T h a n k y o u , D r . Wagner, for your wonderful input, 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 13 d e t a i l , a n d i d e as. A p r i l . I’ve neglected to inquire as to w h e t h e r t h e r e a re members of the Art staff or AIP on this call. Are there? M S . S T AFFORD: We actually did send ou t t h e i n f o r m a t i o n about the call to our AIP artists, s o I w o u l d a s k if there are any AIP artists who h a v e j o i n e d u s , and if you could just identify y o u r s e l v e s b y n ame. M R . B O HAN: Matt Bohan. M S . S T AFFORD: We have Matt. Anybody else? M R . M O RRIS: Frank Morris. M S . S T AFFORD: Frank Morris. As we al ways d o , G a r y , w e a r e going to send the transcript from t h i s m e e t i n g t o our artists who are assigned the programs. W e d id hope that Don Everhart would be able to join us. M R . E V ERHART: I’m here. M S . S T AFFORD: Thank you. a l s o o n t h e p h o ne. Don Everhar t is Are there any other United S t a t e s M i n t s c u lptor-engravers with us? 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company M R . D I NARDI: 14 April, this is Tom Dinar di. I ’ m o n t h e l i n e , too. M S . S T AFFORD: M R . M A RKS: background. Thank you, Tom. Okay. We have covered B a ck to the Fighter Aces’ medal. I t h i n k I w a n t t o start off the comments here just to s a y w h e n e v e r w e are dealing with a medal like this t h a t h a s s e v e r a l contributors over time, in this c a s e , t h e r e a r e Fighter Aces for four different w a r s , i t c a n b e difficult, I think, for the artists t o f i n d s o m e i m ages that are unifying for all. I w a n t to encourage simplicity with a d e s i g n t h a t w e produce. I want to encourage e v e r y o n e , a n d f or those who aren’t familiar with m e d a l l i c a r t , i t is important in medallic art that w e d o n ’ t t r y t o put too much on the face of a coin or medal. S i m p l i city often is better because we’ re d e a l i n g w i t h a very small palette. As you put more a n d m o r e d e t a i l onto a surface like that, images l o s e t h e i r i m p a ct, and it becomes more of a scattered image. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 15 I t i s important that we try to keep it simple. W i t h t hat, I guess my suggestions would be t o e n c o u r a g e t h e artists to think about maybe some s y m b o l i c i m a g e s that are unifying for the--I don’t k n o w w h a t y o u c all it--the profession or skill of f i g h t e r s , a i r f ighters. A b s e n t a single unifying image, perhap s we c o u l d d o s o m e t h ing like the Tuskegee Airmen Medal, w h e r e I t h i n k o n the reverse of that medal there a r e t h e p r o f i l e s of three different aircraft, that w e r e u s e d b y t h e Tuskegee Airmen. M a y b e in this case we could have a r e p r e s e n t a t i v e profile of an aircraft from each of the four. T h a t ’s just a suggestion. I don’t know i f i t ’ s a g o o d idea. I w o u l d discourage the idea of putting l o t s o f m a p s a n d all that because we will end up w i t h a m e d a l t h at really doesn’t have much punch, i f y o u w i l l , i t won’t pop. W i t h t hat, I may have other comments a s we g o a l o n g , b u t I want to ask if there is another m e m b e r w h o i s p repared to speak. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company M R . J A NSEN: M R . M A RKS: M R . J A NSEN: Gary, it’s Erik. Hi, Erik. 16 I’m rea dy. Go ahead. I agree with the comments t h a t w e r e m a d e by Gary just now. This is an o v e r w h e l m i n g c o ntext of images and so forth. S i m p l i c i t y i s t he way here. I h a d a question. By the way, Dr. Wag ner, y o u r e f f o r t i n writing and stewarding this thing t h r o u g h C o n g r e s s is not lost on any of us. That is a g a r g a n t u a n t a sk, both personal and temporal. G e t t i n g s p o n s o r ship signed up on something like t h i s i s a n u n t h inkable love. It is incredible that y o u g o t t h i s d o ne, so well done. that is. D R . W A GNER: Thank you. M R . J A NSEN: We all know how much work I t ’ s not lost on us. a r t i s t s f o r b e i ng on the call. Thanks to the That is how this s y s t e m h o p e f u l l y works best, when we evolve ideas w i t h t h e a r t i s t s present. W e t a l k , y o u t a lk. You listen. We listen. Out of it comes the great d e s i g n s t h a t y o u guys are the best at. So, thank y o u f o r b e i n g o n the line. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 17 I h a v e a couple of questions. Dr. Wag ner, i s t h e r e a n y f l ag or symbol that was bestowed upon t h e s e A c e s t h a t they were able to display on their s h o u l d e r s , t h e i r helmets, their fuselages, to show they are an Ace? D R . W A GNER: No, that was one of the p o i n t s o f t h e b ill that helped us get this awarded, t h a t t h e A m e r i c an Fighter Ace was never awarded a s t a r , a b a r , a n increase in rank, a commendation, a p a t o n t h e b a c k , or anything like that. There was n o s u c h r e c o g n i tion, not even a pat on the back. I n f a c t, some of the Aces say that whe n t h e y g o t h o m e t o their home state, no one would e v e n b u y t h e m a cup of coffee. M R . J A NSEN: I know part of the battle out t h e r e i s i n t i m i dation. Was there any kind of--we a l l t a l k a b o u t the Red Baron and various i n t i m i d a t i n g p e ople from the other side. Is there a n y p h r a s e o l o g y , anything that appeared that the o p p o n e n t m i g h t realize they are up against an Ace? D R . W A GNER: The side of the cockpit w as u s u a l l y a d o r n e d in victory symbols. During World 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 18 W a r I , i t r e a l l y wasn’t adopted, but in World War I I i s w h e n a l l of the pilots adorned the side of t h e c o c k p i t w i t h the victory symbols, whether it be a G e r m a n f l a g o r a Nazi symbol, indicating a downed a i r c r a f t , o r a Japanese flag, which would be a r o u n d m e a t b a l l on a white background. D u r i n g the Korean War, it would be b a s i c a l l y a r e d star with a little bit of yellow outline to it. T h a t w ould be the Aces had to represen t that. M R . J A NSEN: The one thought as I kind of m e d i t a t e d o n t h is whole thing was the common image o f a c r o s s h a i r , another plane in the crosshair. T h a t ’ s a n i m a g e which I think has transcended time, w h e t h e r i t w a s a manual process to aim your cannon o r a n a u t o a c q u ire from some Top Gun movie or something. I s t h a t a symbol that reverberates in your mind at all? D R . W A GNER: Not really because during all w a r s , A m e r i c a n pilots faced that same image, so it 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 19 d o e s n ’ t d i f f e r e ntiate between an Ace and a pilot w h o s a y h a d o n e victory or two or even none, b e c a u s e t h e y a l l at some point in time most likely h a d t h a t i m a g e in their wind screen. M R . J A NSEN: Tuskegee Medal. Okay. I also had the Doctor, are you familiar with the T u s k e g e e A i r m e n Medal we did? D R . W A GNER: that. lines. Yes, I am. I’m familiar with H e r e ’ s a suggestion, thinking along those P e r h a p s we can represent the World War I A c e s , a t l e a s t their aircraft, as a simplistic b i p l a n e , a b i p l ane like the Newport as an example. A t l e a st from layman’s terms, that wou ld p r o b a b l y l o o k l ike the--I’ll call it the “line d r a w i n g ” o f a l l the World I planes that the Fi ghter Aces flew. M a y b e it could be boiled down to that in that war. I ’ l l skip over World War II. M R . J A NSEN: Right. D R . W A GNER: In the Korean War, it boi ls d o w n t o o n e s i m ple plane, the F- 86 Sabre Jet. A l i n e d r a w i n g o f that would be all we would need. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 20 I n t h e V i e t n a m War, all we would need is the F- 4 Phantom. T h e q u estion is how do we boil down th e W o r l d W a r I I g u ys who flew so many different a i r c r a f t , a l l p rops, albeit, as opposed to jets or biplanes. M R . J A NSEN: It’s interesting. One of the c o m m e n t s G a r y m ade in terms of medallic arts here, i t ’ s a l i t t l e d ifferent than say a technical r e s e a r c h p a p e r where technical accuracy carries the day. I n t h i s c ase, we’re trying to inspire a sense o f r e s p e c t , a s ense of awareness, a sense of r e v e r e n c e , a n d a sense of context, with those that w o u l d h a v e , o w n , collect or observe this medal. S o , I have a slightly different versio n w h e r e t h e r e m i g ht be some way we could show the s p a n o f t i m e f r om biplane all the way to swept w i n g , p e r h a p s w ith a propeller dividing the palette in half. I a l s o had a vision of the difference in t h e h e a d g e a r b etween the World War I--I’m not a p i l o t s o e x c u s e me if I miss the terms of art--the 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 21 l e a t h e r c a p f o r ward all the way through to the o x y g e n b r e a t h e r s of the more modern age, and to use t h a t t o m a y b e d o a three or four head portrait. A g a i n , t h a t s t a rts to be kind of reminiscent of the Tuskegee Medal. I w o u l d encourage everyone to think s y m b o l i c a l l y a s opposed to technically accurate b e c a u s e t h e r e i sn’t enough space for the technical features here. It is what we want to bestow on the observer. I ’ l l p ass on to others on the committe e, b u t t h o s e a r e m y comments. Dr. Wagner, thank you s o v e r y m u c h f o r your efforts to get this done. D R . W A GNER: M R . M A RKS: Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Wagner. I j u s t want to make a quick comment on w h a t E r i k h a d t o say and a suggestion of his of an i m a g e o f a n e n e my plane in the sights. I believe t h a t i s a n e x c e llent image for this medal. W e k n o w by the very subject of the med al i t i s a b o u t A c e s. We don’t have to be concerned t h a t ’ s n o t n e c e ssarily an image that can be 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company a s s o c i a t e d w i t h a Fighter Ace. 22 Indeed, it is. T h e r e d o e s n ’ t h ave to be any debate or worry that h a v i n g t h a t i m a ge on a Fighter Ace Medal somehow w o u l d n o t d e n o t e a Fighter Ace, because that indeed c o n j u r e s u p i n the mind the whole idea of what a F i g h t e r A c t w a s , he’s someone that had enemies in h i s c r o s s h a i r s and ultimately was victorious. S o , I don’t want that idea lost. I th ink t h a t ’ s a n e x c e l lent one, and thank you, Erik. S o , w i th that, I think I’m just going to g o d o w n t h e l i s t here so we won’t have a piling on. N o t i n a n y p a r t icular order. M r . M i chael Moran, are you ready? M R . M O RAN: Yes, I am, Gary. M R . M A RKS: Please go ahead. M R . M O RAN: The first point I want to make o n t h i s i s i t i s not about the planes these guys f l e w , i t ’ s n o t about the theaters of war in which they fought. I t’s about the men themselves. I t h i n k o n c e y o u reach that conclusion, it defines t h e d e s i g n a l i ttle bit more closely as to wha t you r e a l l y w a n t o n this. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 23 A p o i n t I want to make also is these g uys f l e w m i s s i o n a f ter mission in order to rack up the k i l l ’ s t h e y d i d , and a lot of them died. It’s s i m p l y t h e o d d s went against them before they got done. I a m s uggesting you would have the i n s c r i p t i o n “ A m erican Fighter Aces” across the top, a n d t h e n I w o u l d do head gear--one for each war, o n e f o r e a c h S e rvice. It fits mathematically. The A m e r i c a n A i r S e rvice was essentially an offshoot of t h e A r m y i n W o r ld War I, and that way, you wou ld be a b l e t o d i f f e r e ntiate hopefully between the wars by t h e h e a d g e a r t he men wore. I t h i n k it’s important to talk a littl e b i t a b o u t t h e i nscription there. There are two i n s c r i p t i o n s h e re that are suggested, one is l e a d e r s h i p a n d duty above all. The one doesn’t tell m e a n y t h i n g b u t the other one does. I think that n e e d s t o b e o n the reverse, be surrounded by a c i r c l e o f o a k l eaves, and keep it very simple. T h a t ’ s my input. M R . M A RKS: Thank you, Michael. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Let’s go Capital Reporting Company t o H e i d i W a s t w e et. 24 Are you on the line? M S . W A STWEET: Here I am. y o u a l l f o r y o u r comments so far. Thanks. Th ank This is a c h a l l e n g i n g o n e because it is such an alle n c o m p a s s i n g o f four wars, more than 20 different p l a n e s t h a t w e r e flown. The challenge is if we d e p i c t a c e r t a i n plane, are we excluding others, h o w d o w e d e p i c t all the countries and the wars. T h e d a nger is we are going to get too c l u t t e r e d a n d w e are going to sacrifice esthetics i n t h e n a m e o f trying to include everyone. We know f r o m o u r e x p e r i ence that these medals do much b e t t e r w h e n t h e y are attractive and they look good r a t h e r t h a n j u s t trying to put everything but the k i t c h e n s i n k o n there. I n t h i nking about this before our meet ing a n d t r y i n g t o d ecide who and how we are going to r e p r e s e n t t h i s , I came up with a couple of ideas. O n e o f t h e i d e a ls I came up with independently was t h e s a m e a s E r i k’s, the crosshairs. I think the c r o s s h a i r s r e p r esent accuracy, which is the fine s k i l l t h a t t h e s e pilots had, accuracy in their aim. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 25 T h e f i rst thing I think of when I thin k of F i g h t i n g A c e s i s the dog fights. It’s hard to i m a g i n e a n y t h i n g else but the dog fights, and I t h i n k t h a t i s g oing to be what a lot of people are e x p e c t i n g t o s e e. plane. In that, we would have to pick a H o w d o we pick what plane out of 20. T h e f i rst Fighter Ace was in World War I, C a p t a i n D o u g l a s Campbell. He flew five victories a n d h e f l e w a N ewport 28. I f w e are going to try a dog fight sce ne, I t h i n k t h e N e w port would be a good plane since it w a s t h e f i r s t r ecorded Ace, or an alternative would b e i n W o r l d W a r II, Richard Ira Bong was considered the Ace of Aces. He had more victories than any of t h e o t h e r A c e s , with 40 victories documented. H e f l e w a P- 38 Lightning. He fought m o s t l y a g a i n s t the A6M Zero or the Ki- 43 Oscar. We c o u l d r e p r e s e n t the P- 38 Lightning fighting a Zero o r O s c a r o r b o t h, and that would lend itself to the d r a m a t i c a n d a t tractive design on the coin. W i t h o u t excluding anyone, we have a go od r e a s o n t o s h o w these particular planes, because 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 26 t h e y w e r e t h e t op Aces. A s f a r as representing the four wars, I t h i n k t h e s i m p l est way to do that is with text. I k n o w w e d o n ’ t l ike a lot of text on our coins, but I c a n ’ t t h i n k o f any other way, and I’m open to s u g g e s t i o n s a n y one else has. I t h i n k the most concise and direct wa y to r e p r e s e n t t h e f our wars is simply having the text on the coin. I t h i n k that is all the ideas I had. M R . M A RKS: Thank you, Heidi. Donald S c a r i n c i , a r e y ou ready? M R . S C ARINCI: M R . M A RKS: I’m here. Can you hear me? Yes, we can. M R . S C ARINCI: I’m going to pass. I h ave n o c o m m e n t s t o add to what has already been said. M R . M A RKS: Mary Lannin? How ab out M ary, are you on the line? M S . L A NNIN: Heidi said. Thank you, Donald. Yes, I am. I agree with what O n e of the things I was thinking about w a s a t r a n s i t i o n from sort of obvious action, which w o u l d b e a d o g fight, where an enemy plane is going 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 27 d o w n i n f l a m e s , if there is enough smoke and fire a n d s o f o r t h , y ou don’t have to be terribly h i s t o r i c a l l y a c curate. I t c o u ld be kind of an over the should er v i e w , m a y b e e v e n through a wind screen of an a n o n y m o u s p l a n e , of what a pilot would see. I d o l ike what Erik said about even th ough i t w a s s o r t o f replicating the Tuskegee Airmen, the f o u r w a r s w i t h the appropriate elements. A n o t h e r idea I was thinking of, rather t h a n c r o s s h a i r s , if you wanted to represent four p l a n e s , i n W o r l d War II, they flew both three and f o u r p r o p e l l e r aircraft, so it could be like a s t y l i z e d f o u r p ropellers separating four quadrants, i f i t w a n t e d t o be about planes rather than ab out r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s of the men who actually flew. T h a t ’ s about all I have to say. M R . M A RKS: Thank you, Mary. Jeanne S o l l m a n , a r e y o u on the line? M S . S T EVENS- SOLLMAN: here. T h a n k y o u, Gary. Yes, I am. I’m I do agree with your c o m m e n t s o n s i m plicity and not having so much on 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 28 t h e r e t h a t w e ’ r e going to overwhelm the medal. I w o u l d like to know, Dr. Wagner, do y ou h a v e a n y t r e m e n dous ideas of what you might like to s e e o n t h e r e v e rse rather than courage, leadership a n d d u t y a b o v e all? Is there some kind of imagery t h a t y o u m i g h t consider for the reverse? I t s e e ms like we have such a full obve rse. I s t h e r e s o m e t h ing we might be able to move to the reverse? D R . W A GNER: Yeah. Well, in hearing s ome o f t h e d i s c u s s i on thus far, one comment I had is t h a t I d o n ’ t w a nt to lose sight of the Korean War a n d t h e V i e t n a m War and the jet age that made e s s e n t i a l l y 4 0 Aces plus two. While most of the A c e s w e r e m a d e in props, certainly the jet age is important. A s f a r as the other side of the coin, let m e a s k a q u e s t i on. What typically is on the reverse? M R . M A RKS: I’ll attempt to answer tha t. N o r m a l ly, when there is a military rel ated t h e m e , o r I s h o uld say often, you will see 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 29 i n s i g n i a , y o u w ill see slogans, or things that were r e l a t e d t o t h e unit or group of military i n d i v i d u a l s w h o are being honored. I t h i n k that’s why you have heard some q u e s t i o n s a b o u t is there some unifying image or i n s i g n i a o r s o m ething of the sort. D R . W A GNER: Well, there is, but we’re not a l l o w e d t o u s e it because it represents the A s s o c i a t i o n o f the American Fighter Aces. Betty, s h o u l d I e v e n b ring that up, the symbol? M S . S T FAFORD: Yes, we can address it. U n f o r t u n a t e l y , we’ve been advised by our senior c o u n s e l t h a t w e are unable to utilize the logo a s s o c i a t e d w i t h the American Fighter Aces A s s o c i a t i o n b e c ause it’s a logo, a representation o f t h e A s s o c i a t ion and not the American Fighter Aces themselves. Of course, this legislation is to h o n o r t h e A m e r i can Fighter Aces. B e t t y , do you have anything else to ad d to that? M S . B I RDSONG: No, you answered perfec tly. M S . S T AFFORD: Certainly, you can brin g it 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 30 u p b u t I d o n ’ t know that there is going to be a lot i n i t b e c a u s e t hat particular logo, we are unable to use. D R . W A GNER: M S . S T AFFORD: Right. If there are elements i n t h e l o g o t h a t y ou feel for one reason or another t h r o u g h t h e i r s ymbolism or their representation m i g h t b e u s e f u l for the committee to know about, c e r t a i n l y w e c a n talk about that. D R . W A GNER: start with that. Yes, let me do that. Let ’s That symbol does have some points t h a t a r e s p e c i f ic to the Aces, and that is the s y m b o l i t s e l f r epresents the Ace of Spades, dating b a c k t o W o r l d W ar I. M o r e o r less, the Ace of Spades is rea lly t h e s y m b o l t h a t defines more or less that you’re an A c e , a t l e a s t t he modified versions of the Ace of S p a d e s w h i c h w a s adopted by the Association, w h e r e a s t h e y p u lled the Ace of Spades to make it l o o k l i k e a s w o rd at the tip, and actually put the i m a g e o f a s w o r d through the center in a symbolic w a y , r e p r e s e n t i ng the--how do I say--the fighting 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 31 p o w e r o f t h e A m erican Fighter Ace. T h e n a long the top of the Ace of Spade s, t h e r e a r e f i v e stars, symbolizing the five stars a r e t h e m i n i m u m required to be a Fighter Ace. n e e d f i v e c o n f i rmed aerial victories. can have more. You Albeit, you You need a minimum of five. T h e r e was one start at the tip of the s w o r d s a y o n t h e Ace of Spades, and there are two s t a r s e a c h o n t he top to the left and to the right. A l s o , symbolic, as I mentioned, there was a s w o r d g o i n g u p the middle, and there were the c o l o r s b l a c k a n d gold, which represented--one side w a s b l a c k , o n e side was gold. I t h i n k we could take away three symbo lic p o i n t s , t h e f i v e minimum stars that represent being an Ace. W e c a n take away the Ace of Spades being a s y m b o l t h a t ’ s s ymbolic, or at least a facsimile t h e r e o f , o f t h a t particular symbol being a symbol o f a n A c e , a n d also the sword, meaning the Aces w e r e t h e b e s t o f the best. C o u r a g e, leadership, and duty above al l, t h e A c e s b e c a m e very focused on their mission, and 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 32 t h e y w e r e v e r y courageous, so they separated t h e m s e l v e s b y t hese particular words, Gary. in the document. It’s I agree, I think those words are very important. Y e s , t hat is what I would say about th e symbol. J e a n n e , that is sort of maybe something t h a t c o u l d b e u sed for the reverse. M S . S T EVENS- SOLLMAN: Wagner. I a p p r eciate that. Thank you, Dr. At least I was a l i t t l e k i n d o f overwhelmed and trying to d i f f e r e n t i a t e a nd also commemorate the work these p i l o t s h a v e d o n e for us. I t d o e sn’t sort it out for me for the o b v e r s e , b u t i t certainly solidifies thoughts for t h e r e v e r s e , a n d I appreciate your comments. D R . W A GNER: Yes. Maybe I should also a d d , a n d i t ’ s n ot in my write up, it might be u s e f u l i n s o m e way, the squadrons that the Aces f l e w i n a l l h a d unit patches in all wars. A g a i n , I think that is another permuta tion t h a t m i g h t m a k e this again more complicated, but t h e r e a r e s q u a d ron patches, there are unit patches. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 33 T h e r e a r e e v e n Air Force patches, like the Eighth A i r F o r c e i n W o rld War II, or the 555th Tactical F i g h t e r S q u a d r o n in Vietnam. These all have images. I j u s t wanted to bring that up. I don ’t t h i n k t h a t i s g oing to make things any better. M S . S T EVENS- SOLLMAN: l o t o f i d e a s o n the table. I think there ar e a Sometimes if you have m o r e , i t i s e a s ier to sort of make a selection that w o u l d b e s i m p l i fied for the final results. M R . M A RKS: Jeanne, are you done? M S . S T EVENS- SOLLMAN: I’m done. Thank you so much. M R . M A RKS: Before we move on, Jeanne and D r . W a g n e r ’ s d i scussion just makes me want to ask a q u e s t i o n o f l e g al counsel. The idea of using the A c e o f S p a d e s i mage and stars, there will be no p r o b l e m d o i n g t hat, would there? M R . W E INMAN: I’m not the attorney who is s p e c i f i c a l l y a s signed to this program, so I do n’t w a n t t o s a y a n y thing that might in some way counter w h a t t h e o t h e r attorney involved in this has to 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 34 say. F o r w h at it is worth, she is going to be h e r e s h o r t l y , I think probably within the next ten minutes. S h e m ay have something to say about this. I s t h e Ace of Spades--beyond the logo that b e l o n g s t o t h e Association, does the Ace of Spades h a v e o t h e r i n d e pendent uses over the years with the Fighter Aces? D R . W A GNER: The Ace of Spades more or l e s s i s d e r i v e d from World War I. It wasn’t so m u c h u s e d i n W o rld War II and Korean and Vietnam. I t o w n s i t s o r i gins to the origin of the American F i g h t e r A c e , w h ere I guess it was a Frenchman in W o r l d W a r I t h a t sort of started all that, the Ace t e r m i n o l o g y a n d the symbolism, that grew to other squadrons. I t i s more or less associated with Wor ld W a r I , b u t t h e American Fighter Aces Association f e l t t h a t i t w a s so important as a representation o f t h e A m e r i c a n Fighter Ace that they used it as t h e b a s i s f o r t heir logo. I g u e s s I think it is more or less 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 35 u n i v e r s a l l y i d e ntified with an Ace. M R . W E INMAN: For the artists’ benefit , we w i l l g e t b a c k t o you on which appropriate elements y o u m a y b e a b l e to use for the design. M R . M A RKS: Thank you, Greg. I’m not an a t t o r n e y b u t i t would seem to me the image of the A c e o f S p a d e s i s something is in the public domain a n d h a s b e e n f o r a long, long time. I’ll leave it t o t h e l e g a l f o lks to sort this one out. T o m U r am, are you prepared? M R . U R AM: Yes, Gary. Thank you. I p r e t t y m u c h a g r ee with everything that has been s a i d s o f a r a l s o, and then I also like the comments o n t h e T u s k e g e e group, as far as their c o n t r i b u t i o n , s ignificant contribution. I think in g o i n g w i t h p l a n es or whatever, they were known as the Redtails.” M a y b e if a plane was in that scheme of d e s i g n , t h a t c o uld be one of the tails for sure to r e m e m b e r t h a t p art. Also, I think it compliments w h a t w e h a v e j u st done also on the Code Talkers and their row. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 36 L i k e e veryone, and I’m not going to r e i t e r a t e , i t ’ s a challenge for the engravers and designers here. T h a t c oncludes my comments. Thank you , Gary. M R . M A RKS: Thank you, Tom. D R . W A GNER: Gary, can I make a commen t? T h i s i s G r e g g W agner. M R . M A RKS: D R . W A GNER: Go ahead. Just referencing the Tusk egee A i r m e n , I r e m e m ber what that design was. I think i t m o r e o r l e s s showed three aircraft more or less f l y i n g i n a l i n e showing maybe some evolution. I t h i n k t h e r e i s a political part of this that the A c e s m i g h t b e a little bit slighted by a design-I ’ m j u s t b e i n g honest--knowing how these guys feel, t h e s e g u y s a r e very proud of what they have done, a n d I t h i n k t h e y would want to have something that r e p r e s e n t s n o t only the aircraft that they flew but s o m e t h i n g t h a t is unique to them and not something t h a t i s u n i q u e to another medal. M R . M A RKS: Sure. Every member of the 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 37 c o m m i t t e e , I t h ink, would agree with you that we w a n t a n u n i q u e design for this medal, and I don’t t h i n k a n y o f u s in our comments have intended to s u g g e s t t h a t w e would have something that was just l i k e t h e T u s k e g ee Medal. T h a t b eing said, there are different w ays t o p o r t r a y i m a g es that can be distinctly different t h a n s o m e t h i n g that has been used before. I d o a ppreciate that comment and those concerns. D R . W A GNER: M R . M A RKS: Okay. Next, we will go to Robert Hoge. M R . H O GE: Thank you, Gary. We have h ad a p l e t h o r a o f o p p ortunities here to consider various i m a g e s , m a n y o f which would be exciting, I think. I l i k e what Mary mentioned about the u se of a propeller. I think perhaps a four blade p r o p e l l e r c o u l d be utilized to separate the four q u a d r a n t s , i f t hat seems advisable. I also am very f o n d o f t h e i d e a of using the crosshairs, because w e a r e r e a l l y t alking about Aces here, and although 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 38 t h a t i s s o m e t h i ng that would have been common to a l l f i g h t e r p i l ots, the planes are also common to a l l t h e f i g h t e r pilots, too. Y o u k n ow, the Aces were not using e x c l u s i v e l y o n e type of plane or another, as o p p o s e d t o t h e pilots that only shot down one, two, t h r e e o r f o u r e nemies, or who didn’t shoot down any. A t a n y rate, I think we need not limit o u r s e l v e s w i t h these considerations. With that b e i n g s a i d , i t is really tough to come up with s o m e t h i n g t h a t will be exciting and unique and r e a l l y s e t t h e s e Aces apart from any other Airmen. I t h i n k the idea of utilizing an image of a n A c e i s p r o b a bly pretty good, since this is the w a y w e d o t h i n k of them, but probably for many p e o p l e , t h e i m a ge of an Ace, you know, is Snoopy on h i s i m a g i n a r y d oghouse, Sopwith Camel. ( L a u g h ter.) M R . H O GE: I don’t know if we want or c o u l d i n c o r p o r a te something like that. We would h a v e t o c h e c k w ith the Estate of Charles Schultz. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 39 N o , I ’ m n o t r e a lly suggesting that. ( L a u g h ter.) M R . H O GE: The Sopwith Camel is probab ly a s f a m i l i a r a s the Fighter Ace plane to the general p u b l i c , I w o u l d guess. I l i k e the suggestions we have had so far i n t h e d i s c u s s i on, and I would like to thank Dr. W a g n e r f o r h i s contributions as well. Thank you, Gary. M R . M A RKS: Thank you, Robert. I just w a n t t o c h e c k a nd see if Michael Bugeja might have j o i n e d u s a t t h is point. ( N o r e sponse.) M R . M A RKS: With that, every member of the c o m m i t t e e h a s c ontributed their comments. We have m a y b e f i v e m i n u tes left before I’d like to move on t o t h e n e x t i t e m. I s t h e re any member who wants to add a n o t h e r s e n t e n c e or two to their comments? M S . L A NNIN: Gary, this is Mary Lannin . I w a s j u s t l o o k i n g at the etymology of the Ace of Spades. I t i s also known as the “Death Card.” 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com I Capital Reporting Company 40 u n d e r s t o o d t h e Ace of Spades was used by American s o l d i e r s a s a p sychological weapon in the Vietnam War. I t w a s c o mmon practice to leave an Ace of S p a d e s i n t h e b odies of Vietnamese soldiers and e v e n t o l i t t e r the grounds and fields with that card. T h e y w ere supplied with Ace of Spades cards in bulk. I thought I had remembered when t h e y w e r e f l y i n g low over the ground, they would t h r o w t h e m o u t of the planes as well. T h a t i s just my two cents on the Ace o f Spades. M R . M A RKS: Thank you, Mary. Anyone e lse? D r . W a g n e r , d i d you have a final comment? D R . W A GNER: Yes, just a final comment . O n e t h i n g , g i v e n all the things we have talked a b o u t , I w a n t e d to just maybe say that I think t h e r e i s a p l a c e in World War I for representing a b i p l a n e , W o r l d War II, I think the P- 38 was brought u p , b u t t h e P -5 1 Mustang made a lot of Aces. I n f a c t, I think it was one of the most A c e m a k i n g a i r c raft of the war on the Army Air 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 41 C o r p s ’ s i d e , b u t we also have to remember there w e r e N a v y p i l o t s and Marine pilots who flew a i r c r a f t a s w e l l, such as the Hellcat and the Corsair. I t h i nk maybe that can be boiled down i n t o s o m e t h i n g , maybe one or two images there. W e t a l ked about Korea and Vietnam. It ’s e a s y t o r e p r e s e nt those with one single aircraft. I d o n ’ t w a n t t o lose sight of the jet age and the A c e s t h a t w e r e made there, in the Korean War and Vietnam War. I g u e s s that’s about all I have to say , o t h e r t h a n i f I might add I am a very avid coin collector. I a m a member of the prestigious Bus T a s k K n o t C l u b , where you collect the bus task d o l l a r s b y d i e states. I’m the Secretary of the F o r t L a u d e r d a l e Coin Club here in Fort Lauderdale. A m e m b e r o f t h e ANA. I’m just finishing up my M a s t e r N u m i s m a t ic degree with the ANA. I c o l l e ct coins, mint state, coppers, by r e c o r d e r s , a n d three cent pieces from the 1800s as w e l l a s m o d e r n coins. This is a subject which is v e r y n e a r a n d d ear to my heart, and I read Coin 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 42 W o r l d e v e r y w e e k. ( L a u g h ter.) P A R T I C IPANT: You said all the right things. M R . M A RKS: Thank you, Dr. Wagner. Th ere a r e s e v e r a l c o i n nerds on the phone with you right now. M S . L A NNIN: Now, don’t use the word “nerd.” ( L a u g h ter.) M R . M A RKS: to myself. I, for one, will assign th at L e t ’s move on -- P A R T I C IPANT: I was actually frothing at the mouth. M R . M A RKS: Okay, folks. Time to go o n to our next medal. M R . M A RKS: We have a discussion on th e C i v i l A i r P a t r o l Congressional Gold Medal. April, d o y o u h a v e s o m e comments? M S . S T AFFORD: I do. It is Public Law 1 1 3 -1 0 8 t h a t a u thorizes a Congressional Gold M edal t o b e a w a r d e d t o the World War II members of the 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company C i v i l A i r P a t r o l. 43 Again, the legislation does not p r e s c r i b e d e s i g n, so we are here to discuss p o t e n t i a l e l e m e nts to be considered by artists as t h e y c r e a t e t h e gold medal designs. J o h n S wain, Director of Government R e l a t i o n s a t t h e Civil Air Patrol, is with us today. M r . S w a in has provided the background i n f o r m a t i o n b e i ng discussed here today by the committee. M r . S w ain, would you like to give a li ttle b a c k g r o u n d o n t he Civil Air Patrol and share some o f y o u r t h o u g h t s on what the Congressional Gold M e d a l d e s i g n s m ight depict? M R . S W AIN: you. I sure would, April. Than k C a n e v e r y body hear me okay? P A R T I C IPANTS: M R . S W AIN: Yes. Good. Just a couple of t h o u g h t s o n w h a t makes Civil Air Patrol a little b i t u n u s u a l i n this context. It was formed one w e e k b e f o r e t h e war started. Civilian aviators had f o r e s e e n t h e c o ming crisis and had for several y e a r s , a n d w e r e working to create a public service 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 44 o r g a n i z a t i o n t h at could help out during the war. I t w a s perfect timing on the Civil Air Patrol’s part. keep in mind. There are some things you need to They were civilians. They were v o l u n t e e r s , a n d I don’t mean they volunteered to s e r v e t h e i r c o u ntry and then got paid, they served t h e i r c o u n t r y w ithout pay during the duration of t h e w a r w h e n t h ey were in service, only getting per d i e m f o r t h e i r being away from home. M a n y w ere too young to be in the milit ary, m a n y w e r e t o o o ld to be in the military. We were a n o r g a n i z a t i o n that allowed women to join. t a u g h t w o m e n t o fly. We Many of the WASP were taught t o f l y i n t h e C ivil Air Patrol, and went on to b e c o m e m e m b e r s of the WASP, and then returned to t h e C i v i l A i r P atrol at the end of the war because t h e r e w a s n o o t her place they could fly after their s e r v i c e t o t h e Nation. W e a l s o had people in the Civil Air Pa trol w h o p h y s i c a l l y couldn’t join the military or had o t h e r r e a s o n s t hey couldn’t be in the military. h a d p i l o t s a s y oung as 15 and as old as in their 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com We Capital Reporting Company 45 8 0 s f l y i n g o p e r ational missions for the Civil Air Patrol. M o s t o f the Civil Air Patrol operation s w e r e f l o w n i n p rivately owned aircraft that either t h e o w n e r s g a v e CAP permission to fly or the owners w e r e t h e r e a c t u ally flying the airplanes. It is v e r y u n u s u a l i n that regard. A c o u p le of other aspects to keep in m ind i s i t w a s h i g h l y unusual for the military to allow c i v i l i a n s t o f l y combat operations, which is what h a p p e n e d s t a r t i ng in March of 1942, and that c o n t i n u e d u n t i l August of 1943, and that was b e c a u s e t h e m i l itary did not have enough antis u b m a r i n e a i r c r aft personnel/vessels available a l o n g t h e A t l a n tic Coast and then the Gulf of M e x i c o t o a d e q u ately cover the submarine crisis t h a t w a s o n g o i n g at that point. C i v i l Air Patrol flew over 24 million m i l e s o n a n t i -s ubmarine operations during thos e 18 m o n t h s , a n d h e l ped push the submarine threat, which w a s a c t u a l l y h a ppening within sight of coastal c i t i e s , s u c h a s Atlantic City, people were on the 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 46 s h o r e w a t c h i n g ships being sunk, it helped push it o u t b e y o n d 1 0 0 miles, away from the coast, which f r e e d u p t h e c o astal shipping lanes, and basically h e l p e d s a v e t h e initial war effort for America, w h i c h w a s p r i m a rily supporting the British and s h i p p i n g , g e t t i ng supplies over to the other side. F o r u s , you know, we’d like to see the m e d a l k i n d o f h ighlight our combat operations and o u r h u m a n i t a r i a n operations. We’d like to h i g h l i g h t w o m e n in aviation because we played a m a j o r r o l e t h e r e. We also played a role in getting c i v i l a v i a t i o n involved in national emergencies. S i n c e this time, Civil Air Patrol has gone o n t o b e a 6 0 , 0 00 member organization that provides h o m e l a n d s e c u r i ty missions. We fly search and r e s c u e , d i s a s t e r relief, and a whole host of c o m m u n i t y p r o j e cts, including youth programs and t h a t k i n d o f t h ing. It all started from the o r g a n i z a t i o n i n World War II. J u s t s o you know, we like the look--we ’re n o t l o o k i n g t o replicate it necessarily--we like t h e l o o k o f t h e WASP Medal, how it was designed, 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 47 t h e s i m p l i c i t y , how all the elements came together with that. I ’ m a v ailable now for questions or any t h o u g h t s y o u m i ght have. M R . M A RKS: Thank you, Mr. Swain. I g uess I h a v e o n e q u e s tion for you, and that is my u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s there were many different sorts of a i r c r a f t t h a t w ere used by the Civil Air Patrol, a n d i f I ’ m c o r r ect on that, was there a particular m o d e l o f a i r c r a ft that was more commonly used than a n y o t h e r o n e t hat might be symbolic of the entire C i v i l A i r P a t r o l? M R . S W AIN: Civil Air Patrol, when it s t a r t e d , t o o k o ver about half of the private a v i a t i o n f l e e t that was out there. So, it had 1 0 , 0 0 0 p l u s a i r planes initially. N o w , t hat was dwindled down quickly b e c a u s e t h e r e w ere other needs during the war, and C i v i l A i r P a t r o l ended up with about 3,000 or 4,000 a i r p l a n e s , t w o or three of them were much more c o m m o n t h a n t h e others, in particular, the Fairchild 24. Various variants of that airplane 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 48 w e r e u s e d a l o t by Civil Air Patrol for its more h a z a r d o u s m i s s i ons and more complex missions. T h e S t inson aircraft, Stinson 10s and S t i n s o n V o y a g e r s, which were essentially the same a i r p l a n e , w e r e also used. There were one or two o t h e r s t h a t w e r e very common in the fleet. M R . M A RKS: Would those be the aircraf t m o r e l i k e l y t o have been involved in the combat missions? M R . S W AIN: They would have been; yes, absolutely. M R . M A RKS: That would be a reasonable i m a g e t o u s e i f we were trying to identify a single a i r c r a f t t o r e p resent the Civil Air Patrol? M R . W E INMAN: Gary, this is Greg. Thi s is a c t u a l l y o n e o f the challenges we have here, the l e g i s l a t i o n - - i t is an honor of World War II members c o l l e c t i v e l y , s o we are always very cautious about t h e p o s s i b i l i t y of identifying any one or small g r o u p o f t h e W o rld War II members of the Civil Air Patrol. I f y o u feature a certain plane, there is 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 49 a l w a y s t h e r i s k to say well, they’re featuring this g r o u p o r t h a t p articular person, and this is s o m e t h i n g w e h a ve actually been struggling with, a b o u t h o w t o f e ature the aircraft here when these a r e n o t G o v e r n m ent owned planes, they are actually p r i v a t e p l a n e s , and they were also private brands, o f c o u r s e , e v e n though obviously some of them are n o l o n g e r i n b u siness. M R . M A RKS: M R . W E INMAN: Okay. We’re grappling with it right now. M R . M A RKS: that. Okay; very well. I unders tand I g u e s s I would shift my question then to M r . S w a i n a n d a sk are there any unifying symbols or p a t c h e s o r l o g o that would have been identified w i t h t h e C i v i l Air Patrol. M R . S W AIN: There are. t h r e e t h a t c o m e to mind. There are two or Each aircraft had what y o u c a l l a “ r o u ndel” on the airplane, which was a round design. It was a blue circle with a white t r i a n g l e i n t h e middle. Those were on our o p e r a t i o n a l a i r planes that flew anti- submarine 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 50 missions. O t h e r aircraft in the Civil Air Patrol had t h e s a m e s y m b o l , the blue circle with a white t r i a n g l e , b u t w ith a red three bladed propeller in t h e m i d d l e o f t he design. I t h i n k we provided those to the team h e r e , a n d I ’ m s ure they will go out to the designers. T h o s e are certainly two. There were s ome o t h e r s y m b o l s f rom World War II that we have also p r o v i d e d f o r o u r various act of duty missions, and t h e p a t c h o u r a viators wore, which was basically t h a t s y m b o l w i t h the red prop in the middle and t h e n t h e i n i t i a ls “US” on a rock underneath the circle. M R . M A RKS: f o r t h o s e c o m m e nts. Okay; very good. Thank yo u I think what I will do is p r e t t y m u c h g o in reverse order of what we did before. T h a t w ould take us to Robert. Are yo u prepared? M R . H O GE: Well, I’m kind of prepared but I d o n ’ t h a v e a whole lot of ideas. I like the idea 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 51 o f s h o w i n g a c o mbat mission, maybe like a s i l h o u e t t e o f a submarine below a tiny little a i r c r a f t , b u t I don’t know if that’s a good image for a medal. T he idea of the triangle within a c i r c l e i s p r o b a bly something useful, if that would be recognizable. I’m not sure how familiar that is t o t h e g e n e r a l public. M a y b e we could do a combined image of d i f f e r e n t t y p e s of the services which the Civil Air Patrol provided. I think something like what we w e r e t r y i n g f o r the Special Forces, showing the v a r i o u s d i f f e r e nt activities. I t ’ s d ifficult when you are thinking i n t e r m s o f a i r c r a ft, the subjects are far from what t h e y a r e s e e i n g , what they are looking for, whether i t i s a n e n e m y submarine or other vessel or a lost a i r c r a f t , s e a r c h and rescue, something like that, c o u r i e r s e r v i c e s. I t i s difficult to decide how we might represent these. I’d like to hear some other suggestions. M S . S T AFFORD: Excuse me. Gary, Mr. S wain 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 52 h a s a c t u a l l y s o me suggestions for both obverse and reverse. I t w a s in the materials that we had forwarded. J u s t for discussion, perhaps he should g o o v e r t h o s e r eally quickly. M R . S W AIN: I’d be glad to do that. O ne o f t h e r e a s o n s that we got into this combat mission w a s s o m a n y o i l tankers were being sunk along the A t l a n t i c C o a s t , that the oil industry went to the m i l i t a r y t o t e l l them that they needed help in p a t r o l l i n g f o r submarines and protecting the t a n k e r s a n d o t h er shipping vessels that were going u p a n d d o w n t h e coast. O u r t h inking was perhaps instead of r e p r e s e n t i n g a submarine on the medal, that we c o u l d h a v e a n o il tanker, which was the critical i t e m w e w e r e s h ipping to England at that point, b e c a u s e n o t o n l y did we hunt submarines, force them u n d e r t h e w a t e r , try to attack them with the bombs t h a t w e r e a t t a c hed to our airplanes, but we also d i d c o n v o y p a t r ols, where we escorted vessels going u p a n d d o w n t h e coast to make sure they got through safely. T h a t i s certainly one idea you could 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 53 c o n s i d e r f o r t h at. M R . M A RKS: Okay. M S . S T AFFORD: Just in case any of the m e m b e r s d o n ’ t h ave their information in front of t h e m , i n o u r i n itial discussions for the obverse, M r . S w a i n h a d n oted two aircraft members, one male a n d o n e f e m a l e , perhaps being depicted. A Civil A i r P a t r o l l i g h t signal engine aircraft and the i n s c r i p t i o n “ C i vil Air Patrol” and the years 1941 through 1945. T h e r e verse, two armed Civil Air Patro l l i g h t a i r c r a f t over flying a tanker, as he just i n d i c a t e d , w i t h that roundel, the circle and the t r i a n g l e , p r o p e ller. D i d y o u want to say anything about the d u t y p a t c h e s , a bout the service patches? M R . S W AIN: There are duty patches, if the d e s i g n e r s w a n t e d to consider them, that denoted all t h e a c t i v e , t h e military duties that we performed. O n e w a s f o r c o a stal patrol. Another was for our c o u r i e r s e r v i c e , another was for search and rescue purposes. W e h ad a forest patrol. I’ve forgotten 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 54 w h a t t h e f i f t h one was. M S . S T AFFORD: right. Missing aircraft? M R . M A RKS: Southern liaison patrol. M R . S W AIN: Southern liaison patrol; W e a c t u ally caught an enemy agent coming a c r o s s t h e B o r d er with one of our aircraft calling i n U . S . a g e n t s to intercept a vehicle. T h e r e are a whole host of missions tha t we d i d i n a d d i t i o n to these. We towed targets. Seven o f o u r g u y s w e r e shot down by U.S. friendly forces towing targets. That was a very hazardous mission. W e d i d f i r e p a t rols and all kinds of things. There a r e a n y n u m b e r of missions we could actually depict. W e t h i nk the one that was the most h a z a r d o u s a n d t he most important to the Nation was c e r t a i n l y p r o v i ding the anti- submarine patrol and t h e c o n v o y e s c o rt duties that we did during the f i r s t p a r t o f t he war. Y o u w i ll find quotes from George Marsh all, f r o m H a p A r n o l d , and others during the war that c r e d i t e d C i v i l Air Patrol’s participation with 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 55 r e a l l y h e l p i n g to turn the situation around in the i n i t i a l s t a g e s of the battle of the Atlantic that i n v o l v e d s u b m a r ines. M R . M A RKS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Swain. I t h i n k t h a t w i ll now take us to Tom Uram. M R . U R AM: Okay, Gary, thanks. In rea ding o v e r t h e t e a m d iscussions and looking over the o b v e r s e a n d r e v erse and design elements, I think it s o u n d s l i k e a l s o the two aircraft members, being a m a l e a n d a f e m a le, would be pretty relevant to the t h e m e b a s e d o n the discussion so far. W e r e t here any humanitarian efforts al so, l i k e f o o d , a n y t hing like that, drops like that? I u n d e r s t a n d t h e whole thing of protecting the s u b m a r i n e s , b u t they were also for the purpose of b r i n g i n g i n m e r chant vessels, you know, protecting t h e m a n d s o f o r th, that were obviously bringing in s u p p l i e s a n d s o forth. M a y b e something with a light would be a p p r o p r i a t e a s well, if they were kind of like the e y e s i n t h e l i g ht of the sky to protect these v e s s e l s , a s f a r as putting some thought into that 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 56 theme. T h a n k you, Gary. M R . M A RKS: Okay. Thank you. Was tha t a q u e s t i o n f o r M r . Swain? M R . U R AM: I just read here that there w e r e a l o t o f t racking missions for search lights, t h i n g s l i k e t h a t, basically the eyes in the sky is w h a t i t a p p e a r s to be. M R . M A RKS: Mr. Swain, do you have a c o m m e n t o n a n y of that? M R . S W AIN: The “Eyes in the sky” was one o f o u r W o r l d W a r II motto’s that some artist came up with. M R . U R AM: I think certainly that coul d be p u t i n t o s o m e k ind of focus with the theme here. C e r t a i n l y , f r o m reading the theme discussion sheet t h a t w a s s e n t o ut, that seems to be relevant. Thank you, Gary. M R . M A RKS: Thank you, Tom. M S . S T EVENS- SOLLMAN: Gary. Yes. Jeanne? Thank you, A g a i n , w e have another extremely full and d i f f i c u l t i m a g e ry here. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 57 O n e o f the things that keeps coming ba ck t o m e a s I r e a d through the activities that were d o n e b y t h e C i v il Air Patrol is because we were o f f s h o r e w o r k i n g, the possibility of having a medal w i t h l a y e r s , y o u know, where you have air and sea a n d t h e g r o u n d , and on the ground, we would have d r o p s , h u m a n i t a rian supplies. T h e s e a, some kind of coastal r e p r e s e n t a t i o n , maybe we could have a male and f e m a l e p i l o t w i th binoculars, whatever. S i m p l i f y i n g i t and yet somehow magnifying all these e f f o r t s t h a t w e re put forth. I s t r o ngly would recommend using the p a t c h e s s o m e w h e re maybe on the reverse, so that we w o u l d r e c o g n i z e all five or six of the different l e v e l s o f a c t i v ity that were performed. T h a t ’ s all. M R . M A RKS: M S . L A NNIN: Thank you. Thank you. Hi. Mary? I found an old poste r of m i n e w i t h “ E y e s in the Sky” written on it. t h a t t o b e r a t h er interesting. I found It seems to me we d o n ’ t e v e n n e e d to worry about what kinds of planes 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company they flew. 58 T h e y all seemed to have the special m a r k i n g s o f t h e blue circle with the white triangle. I t h ink that is as simple as we can p o s s i b l y g e t s o mething, and would be recognizable t o a n y b o d y i n t he Civil Air Patrol. A l s o , I do like the idea of the male a nd f e m a l e r e p r e s e n ted because if you look at some of t h e b i o , s o m e o f the people who are still alive who f l e w d u r i n g W o r ld War II are women in their 90s, a n d t h e y a r e s t ill flying. Kind of amazing. T h a t ’ s all I have to say. M R . M A RKS: Thank you, Mary. M R . S C ARINCI: M R . M A RKS: Donald? No comments. Okay. Thank you. How abo ut Heidi? M S . W A STWEET: Hi. This is Heidi. I t h i n k i t ’ s r e a l ly important to put that logo on it, a s o t h e r p e o p l e have said, the triangle with the propeller. C i v il Air Patrol is still a very vital p a r t o f s o c i e t y , and that image is going to connect t h e h i s t o r y o f the Civil Air Patrol with the current program. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 59 I , f o r one, personally, I'm not too i n t e r e s t e d i n t he equipment they used, more in the people. I r e a l ly am going to be looking for r e p r e s e n t a t i o n of the women pilots, very unique, a n d v e r y i m p o r t ant. I a l s o like the visual of the “Eye in the S k y ” t h e m e t h a t can be very attractive, and I hope t o s e e s o m e d e s ign based on that. T h a t ’ s it. M R . M A RKS: Thank you, Heidi. M R . M O RAN: Yes, Gary. Michael Moran? I want to seco nd t h e m o t i o n i n t erms of the patches. w i t h H e i d i a b o u t the people. I also agree I would suggest that y o u d o w a n t t o keep that logo somewhere on the m e d a l , a n d I w o uld suggest that we use it almost as i s t o i d e n t i f y the Civil Air Patrol. Those are my comments. M R . M A RKS: Thank you, Michael. t a k e s u s t o E r i k. M R . J A NSEN: M R . M A RKS: Do you hear me okay? We can hear you. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com That Capital Reporting Company M R . J A NSEN: 60 Obviously, I think the lo go, t h e i m p l i c a t i o n of the civil involvement, is an i m p o r t a n t t h i n g that at least anyone who has lived t h r o u g h t h e l a s t four or five decades is going to r e c o g n i z e t h a t as kind of a civil symbol. I , t o o , reflecting on Heidi’s comments , a g r e e a b o u t t h e people. I could envision some f o l k s w h o a r e c learly not in military gear, maybe a r m i n a r m , w i t h a plane in the backdrop, a small p l a n e , n o t a m i litary plane, arm in arm with some t e x t a b o u t t h e contribution, something like that. E a r l y on in the discussion, the image that c a m e t o m y m i n d , it is not a perfect parallel, the i d e a o f t h e M i n uteman. The Minuteman actually f o u g h t t h e b a t t le and became the disorganized/ organized Army. There is an element here of the c i v i l s t e p u p a nd assuming the risk, taking the d a n g e r i n s t r i d e, and providing the element of s u p p o r t f o r d e f ense, fighting the fight. I c a n ’ t help but resist--we know there is a n i c o n i c i n t h e Minuteman, and I look back to-s o m e o f y o u g u y s will be better than I am and can 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 61 g i v e a d a t e o n that commemorative, but there is a M i n u t e m a n c o m m e morative that has that iconic image. A g a i n , I’m not quite sure how to merge that in there. Nonetheless, there is an element of t h e c i v i l i a n c o ntributions, the step up, that I t h i n k m i g h t b e an inspiration here somehow. T h i s i s another tough design where we have a l o t o f p o t e n t ial clutter if we stick to the t e c h n i c a l i t i e s , but we have to get the emotionality here. I w o u l d love to see the quality, if just r e p r e s e n t a t i o n of smiling faces wearing a leather c a p o r s o m e t h i n g, of a man and a woman, and a prop. I d o n ’ t know how you do it, but I thin k we s h o u l d s h o w t h a t balance of contribution. Time is n o t o n o u r s i d e in giving that recognition, so we h a v e t o g i v e i t now and as often as we can. T h a t ’ s all my comments. M R . M A RKS: Thank you, Erik. I believ e t h e M i n u t e m a n i mage you’re thinking of comes from t h e 1 9 2 5 L e x i n g ton/Bunker. M R . J A NSEN: I was going to say 1925, but I f e a r e d b e i n g corrected by someone who has the 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 62 a u t h o r i t y o v e r me. M R . M A RKS: friend. I don’t know about that, m y T h a t ’ s the image you were thinking of. M R . J A NSEN: M R . M A RKS: It is. I guess I will just wrap u p w i t h a c o u p l e o f simple comments. I pretty much m i r r o r a l o t o f what has been said. Again, s i m p l i c i t y i s t he order of the day in producing a m e d a l t h a t h a s pop. I believe the Civil Air Patrol i m a g e i s a g o o d one and will readily identify this medal. I a l s o very much agree with my colleag ues w i t h t h e i d e a o f focusing on the people, s p e c i f i c a l l y m a king sure both genders are represented. I d o n ’ t know if there is an opportunit y h e r e t o u s e w i n gs, eagle’s wings are often a s s o c i a t e d w i t h air flight, particularly in m i l i t a r y a n d p a ramilitary operations. If there is a n a r t i s t w i t h some creative energy to incorporate e a g l e ’ s w i n g s , that can also be an attractive image. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company W e h a v e a little bit of time here. 63 An y q u i c k f o l l o w u p from any of the members? M S . S T AFFORD: Gary, I think we have s o m e t h i n g f r o m our liaison, Mr. Swain. M R . M A RKS: Okay. Mr. Swain, please g o M R . S W AIN: Sure. Just a couple of ahead. thoughts. W e h ad thought of an inscription that w o u l d g o a s f o l lows: “Civilian volunteers who flew c o m b a t a n d h u m a nitarian missions.” That is s o m e t h i n g y o u c ould consider. I n r e f erence to the earlier reference to M i n u t e m a n , t h e r e was a book just after World War II a b o u t t h e C i v i l Air Patrol that had the title “ M i n u t e m e n o f t he Air.” t o t h a t i n t h e past. There has been a reference I thought I’d pass that on to you. M S . S T AFFORD: Would you read that s u g g e s t e d i n s c r iption one more time? M R . S W AIN: I can; yes. “Civilian v o l u n t e e r s w h o flew combat and humanitarian missions.” 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company M S . L A NNIN: This is Mary. 64 Shouldn’t that b e p l u r a l , “ m i s sions?” M R . S W AIN: Yes, it is missions. M R . M A RKS: Anything else for Mr. Swai n? M R . H O GE: Yes, this is Robert. I was w o n d e r i n g i f M r . Swain could clarify between the n o t e s t h a t w e h ave and the actual legislation, the s t a t u t e p r o p o s i ng the medal, one of them says that t h e r e w e r e o v e r 200,000 Americans who served in the C A P i n W o r l d W a r II, and the legislation says there w e r e c l o s e t o 1 00,000. M R . S W AIN: There has been research th at h a s g o n e o n s i n ce the bill was introduced that has u p p e d t h e n u m b e r. o u r y o u t h m e m b e rs. I think one number also includes We had young people aged 15 to 1 8 t h a t w e w e r e providing military training for. t h i n k t h e h i g h e r number also includes 80,000 to 9 0 , 0 0 0 o f t h o s e individuals also. M R . H O GE: M R . M A RKS: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Swain, do you have any final comments? M R . S W AIN: No. We’re certainly open to 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com I Capital Reporting Company t h e p o s s i b i l i t i es of the design. t a l k i n g a b o u t e agle’s wings. 65 Somebody was I know the early W o r l d W a r I I p i lots’ insignia was an eagle. We h a v e p r o v i d e d t he image to the U.S. Mint team here. T h e r e m a y b e a possibility there with that design. W e l o o k forward to working with everybody on this. M R . M A RKS: Great. Speaking for the c o m m i t t e e , I w a nt to thank you, Mr. Swain, and your o r g a n i z a t i o n f o r all your assistance during this meeting. M R . S W AIN: Thanks. M R . M A RKS: With that, we’ll be moving on t o o u r f i n a l d i scussion for the day, and that is f o r t h e D o o l i t t le Tokyo Raiders Congressional Gold Medals Program. I w i l l look to April for her comments. M S . S T AFFORD: Okay. * D I S C U S S I O N O F DESIGN DIRECTION FOR THE DOOLITTLE T O K Y O R A I D E R S C ONGRESSIONAL GOLD MEDALS PROGRAM M R . M A RKS: I will look to April for h er comments. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company M S . S T AFFORD: Okay. 66 Can I just ask i f o u r l i a i s o n f o r this program, Mr. Brian Anderson, is with us. A r e you with us, Mr. Anderson? M R . A N DERSON: Copy that, young lady. M S . S T AFFORD: Okay; all right. introduction. A bri ef It is Public Law 113- 106 that a u t h o r i z e s t h e award of a Congressional Gold Medal t o t h e W o r l d W a r II members of the Doolittle Tokyo R a i d e r s f o r o u t standing heroism, valor, skill, and s e r v i c e t o t h e United States in conducting the b o m b i n g s o f T o k yo. W i t h o u t specifics regarding the medal’ s d e s i g n s , w e a r e here to discuss with the CCAC d e s i g n e l e m e n t s and themes artists should consider a s t h e y d e v e l o p their designs for this gold medal. W i t h u s today, as I said, is Brian A n d e r s o n , w h o i s the Sergeant at Arms for the D o o l i t t l e T o k y o Raiders Association. Mr. Anderson d e v e l o p e d t h e b ackground information that CCAC r e c e i v e d i n a d v ance of today’s discussion. M r . A n derson, would you please give us s o m e b a c k g r o u n d on the Doolittle Tokyo Raiders and 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 67 s h a r e w i t h u s y our thoughts on the Congressional G o l d M e d a l d e s i gns? M R . A N DERSON: Yes, thank you, April. F i r s t o f a l l , l et me say thank you to all the p e o p l e t h a t a r e there today. I know you all have b u s y t i m e s a n d schedules, so thank you. I’m last a m o n g s t u s , s o it was kind of interesting listening to you all. I w o u l d also like to thank the Coin W o r l d / c o i n p e o p le out there. You people had ran a r t i c l e s i n y o u r magazines putting the word out t h a t w e w e r e t r ying to get a Congressional Gold M e d a l f o r t h e D oolittle Tokyo Raiders, and asking y o u r m e m b e r s t o contact their Senators and their R e p r e s e n t a t i v e s , so I thank you all for that. T h i s h as been a labor of love for myse lf. I ’ m t h e p e r s o n that bird dogged this thing from start to finish. I’ve looked at all the fine work y o u a l l h a v e d o ne with the WASP, Tuskegee Airmen, t h e 4 4 2 N i s e i , the Code Talkers, the Montford Marines. I g o t to thinking why not a Congressional G o l d M e d a l f o r my Doolittle Tokyo Raiders. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 68 I s t a r ted this process back in 2011. I f i n a l l y g o t s o m ebody to listen to me in both c h a m b e r s , a n d i n 2012, we had a resolution passed i n t h e S e n a t e , but it didn’t pass in the House, so I c i r c l e d b a c k around in 2013. We have a bill in t h e S e n a t e a n d we have the bill in the House going. M y w i f e and I visited all 100 Senate o f f i c e s , a l l 4 3 5 House offices, with e- mails and phone calls. I was making phone calls three weeks b e f o r e t h e v o t e back in May to try to get more support. I h a d my numbers but I just wanted to m a k e t h i s a s l a m dunk. I t h a n k you all for your help and supp ort a n d f o r b e i n g h ere this afternoon. I t h i n k most of you know who the Dooli ttle T o k y o R a i d e r s a re. They have been my hero since I w a s b a c k i n f o u rth grade when I first read “30 S e c o n d s O v e r T o kyo.” I had the pleasure to have an h o u r w i t h J i m m y Doolittle back in 1986. I’ve got t o k n o w p r o b a b l y 20 to 25 of the Raiders over the years. W h a t t hey did is basically they change d 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 69 t h e c o u r s e o f W orld War II, war in the Pacific theater. T h e r aid on Tokyo didn’t do a lot of d a m a g e b u t i t c hanged the psyche of the Japanese m i l i t a r y , a n d a s you know, a month and a half l a t e r , w e h a d t he Battle of Midway. We won that b a t t l e b e c a u s e we sank the four Jap carriers. They w e r e g o i n g t o s end more assets to Midway but they d i d n ’ t b e c a u s e of the attack on the Japanese h o m e l a n d o n A p r il 18, 1942. T h o s e 80 brave airmen who took off tha t m o r n i n g , b a s i c a lly, it was a suicide mission, they k n e w t h e y h a d t o leave early, they didn’t have the g a s t o g e t t o t heir destinations, they pretty much f i g u r e d t h e y w o uld probably end up in Japanese h a n d s , b u t t h e y all went. None of them backed out. T h e y w e r e a l l v olunteers. W h e n t he note went up that they were l o o k i n g f o r v o l unteers for a mission, the guys had n o i d e a w h a t i t was, what it was going to entail. T h e y v o l u n t e e r e d and they all followed through with it. B a c k i n January, an Admiral got the id ea 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 70 o f w h y n o t u s e an aircraft carrier to possibly go b a c k a n d g i v e J apan a little pay back. Well, then t h e N a v y d i d n ’ t have any airplanes that could do t h a t , s o t h e i d ea was derived to come up with a l i g h t t o m e d i u m bomber. That task was turned over t o a t t h a t t i m e Lt. Col. Doolittle, and he picked t h e N o r t h A m e r i can Billy Mitchell B- 25. T h i s w as the first ever joint Navy/Arm y A i r C o r p s ’ o p e r ation, and the Hornet was a brand n e w a i r c r a f t c a rrier, and the sailors were none too h a p p y t o s e e t h ese B-25s being hoisted up on their d e c k , a n d t h e y were going to have to play taxi s e r v i c e f o r t h e Air Corps. They didn’t even know w h a t w a s g o i n g on until after the taskforce had s a i l e d , a n d t h e y were out in open water, did they k n o w t h e y w e r e going to attack Japan. t h e n t h e s a i l o r s loved the Raiders. Of course, They all got a l o n g n i c e l y a n d they played good together. A g a i n , this was the first joint action . T h e R a i d e r s w e r e spotted early. m a d e f o r t h e m t o take off. The decision was There were 80 Raiders, 1 6 a i r c r a f t , a n d they all took off. There were no 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company issues. 71 O n e s a ilor lost his arm at the very last, t h e b o a t s h i f t e d and he got pushed into one of the p r o p e l l e r s , a n d Crew 16, they went through the w h o l e w a r t h i n k ing this sailor had gotten killed. T h e y d i d n ’ t k n o w they were able to save him. O n t h e mission itself, they attacked f ive d i f f e r e n t c i t i e s. significant. Again, the damage was not very I t was military targets. They did n o t a t t a c k h o s p itals and schools as the Japanese s a i d t h e y d i d , and the General was quite specific, d o n o t a t t a c k t he Imperial Palace, put your bombs w h e r e t h e y n e e d to go. O n t h e mission, the guys were fuel c r i t i c a l , b u t f ortunately, the hand of providence w a s w i t h t h e m t hat night. There was a storm over t h e S o u t h C h i n a Sea, and instead of them getting i n t o a h e a d w i n d, the winds had shifted. They had a p r e t t y g o o d t ail wind that night, and that e n a b l e d m o s t o f them to get into friendly held t e r r i t o r y s o t h ey could bail out. T w o a i rcraft ditched, and of the ditch ing, t w o R a i d e r s d i e d. One airman died bailing out, his 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company p a r a c h u t e d i d n ’ t open. 72 Of the 80 men that night, t h r e e a c t u a l l y died on the mission, eight were captured. O f t hose eight, three were executed, one d i e d o f m a l n u t r ition and poor treatment, and four w e r e k e p t i n s o litary confinement and lived m i s e r a b l y f o r t he next 40 months. O f t h e other Raiders who went back int o v a r i o u s t h e a t e r s of the war, by the war’s end, 17 o f t h o s e R a i d e r s also had been killed. D i c k C ole, who is still with us, Dick went o n t o f l y 5 0 m i ssions over the Hump, back in those d a y s , f l y i n g D C -3 missions, over the Himalaya Mountains. D i c k is still with us. Dick is 98 years o l d , a n d l a s t w eekend, he was flying a DC- 3. (L a u g h t er.) M R . A N DERSON: So, longevity there. We ar e d o w n t w o o f the last four Raiders, and they are al l i n t h e i r 9 0 s also. That is why it was pa r a m o u n t t h a t I get this done for them. I’d like to g e t t h i s a l l wrapped up before I lose any more. T o m G r iffith passed away last year, the ve r y s a m e d a y t hat Senator Sherrod Brown introduced 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 73 t h i s l e g i s l a t i o n on the Senate Floor. A g a i n , I commend you guys and I applau d e v e r y b o d y f o r g etting this done, for the CAP guys a n d t h e F i g h t e r Aces, because age is not on our side. M R . M A RKS: Thank you, Mr. Anderson. Did y o u h a v e m o r e c omments? M R . A N DERSON: Do you want me to tell you a b o u t w h a t m y i deas are? Do you guys want to talk? H o w d o y o u w a n t to handle that? M R . M A RKS: If you could, please, tell us a b o u t y o u r i d e a s. M R . A N DERSON: Okay. R a i d e r s a n d a m o ngst ourselves. We talked to the Because this was t h e f i r s t j o i n t operation, we would like to see on t h e o b v e r s e o r the front the USS Hornet with a B- 25 B i l l y M i t c h e l l taking off the deck of the Hornet. W h e n p eople think of the Doolittle Tok yo r a i d , t h a t ’ s w h at you think of, that is what you see. I f y o u l o ok at the history books or you see t h e n e w s r e e l s , you see the airplanes taking off, o r y o u s e e R a i d ers standing on the deck, Captain 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 74 M i c h e n e r , J i m m y Doolittle, and Bull Halsey. A g a i n , you have the 80 guys, 80 men ma de up this mission. We were thinking about having 16 s t a r s o n t h e f r ont going around the outside of the c o i n t o r e p r e s e nt the 16 crews, the 16 aircraft w i t h t h e 8 0 c r e w members, five gentlemen per aircraft. W e w o u ld like to see the inscription “ D o o l i t t l e T o k y o Raiders First Strike Back.” A g a i n , w h e n y o u think and you go back and look at t h a t p a r t o f h i story, you almost always see the B2 5 t a k i n g o f f t he deck of the Hornet. By show ing t h e H o r n e t , w e are including our Navy brethren in that. T h e y a l s o took part in this. I t w a s the 17th Bombardment Group, and t h a t g r o u p g o e s back to World War I. On the r e v e r s e s i d e , w e would kind of like to see s o m e t h i n g - - a g a i n, we can’t use the Association’s l o g o , w e u n d e r s tand that. We can maybe take some e l e m e n t s o f f t h at. I k n o w on the 442 Nisei Gold Medal, yo u h a d t h r e e o f t h e unit patches on the back side. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com I Capital Reporting Company 75 w a s t h i n k i n g w e have four squadrons that made up t h e 1 7 t h B o m b a r dment Group, the 34th, the 37th, the 8 9 t h , a n d t h e 9 5th. Betty on that. I have given information to The Thunderbird, the Lion, the Wing h e l m e t , a n d t h e mule. Danger.” Their motto was “Always in T h a t is in Latin. Again, this goes back t o t h e 1 7 t h B o m bardment Group, which was a group t h a t g o e s b a c k to World War I. A g a i n , unlike the other medals that we h a v e t a l k e d a b o ut, there are all kinds of stuff g o i n g o n w i t h t he Doolittle Tokyo Raiders, but we h a d o n e m i s s i o n here, and that is their attack on T o k y o , t o g i v e back some pay back for Pearl Harbor. I t b o o s t e d o u r morale tremendously back in the States. I t t u r ned the tide of the war in the P a c i f i c , a n d I ’ m done. M R . M A RKS: Anderson. Okay. A l l right. Thank you, Mr. With that, we will have our d i s c u s s i o n w i t h the committee. I really don’t have a w h o l e l o t m y s elf to add to what Mr. Anderson has provided to us. I think there are some great ideas there. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 76 I a m g oing to do reverse order of the last s e q u e n c e a n d I will go to Erik. M R . J A NSEN: M R . M A RKS: M R . J A NSEN: Can you hear me all right ? Yes. I think one of the things we n e e d t o b e a w a r e of here is the name “Doolittle,” w h i c h i s s o i c o nically related to the dropping of the Atomic Bomb. Am I mistaken there? P A R T I C IPANT: M R . M O RAN: M R . J A NSEN: Yes, you are. Yes, you are. In that case, never mind. It s t u c k i n m y m i n d for some reason. M R . M O RAN: Gary, he went to the Europ ean theater. M R . J A NSEN: The imagery is tough here as w e l l , b e c a u s e I personally don’t like maps on medals. I g u e s s the most important words that I h e a r d f r o m M r . Anderson would be related to really s w i n g i n g t h e t i de of the war, and a strategic move, a m o v e i n t h e m inds of the opponent, somehow, I w o u l d l i k e t o h one in on that, the number of p l a y e r s i n v o l v e d, the image of the B- 25, and the 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 77 c a r r i e r , t h e v a lor of the suicide mission or d i m e n s i o n a l i t y of that, are all so difficult, I t h i n k , t o c a r r y forth on this medal. I ’ m a t a bit of a loss here to really come u p w i t h i m a g e r y that carries those things forward. I ’ m n o t s u r e I ’ m much help here, guys. M R . A N DERSON: Erik, I’m sorry. I got k i c k e d o u t o f t he call so I didn’t hear a word you said, sir. M R . J A NSEN: Well, it probably wasn’t w o r t h s a y i n g a g ain. ( L a u g h ter.) M R . M A RKS: M R . J A NSEN: M R . M A RKS: Are you done, Erik? Quite. Okay. Thank you. I will go to Mike Moran. M R . M O RAN: First of all, I’d like to say t h a t w e c o u l d u se Mr. Anderson’s help with the L i b e r t y C o i n A c t, which is stalled in Congress. ( L a u g h ter.) M R . M O RAN: With no sponsors. Getting b a c k t o t h e t o p ic at hand, there are a couple of 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company t h i n g s I h e a r d here. 78 One was the Navy had a role i n t h i s a n d t h a t is largely overlooked today. The o t h e r t h i n g w a s the turning of the war, and those a r e t h e t h i n g s that need to be expressed in this m e d a l , i t g o e s to what the men accomplished, that’s what they did. I t h i n k there may be five bombs on eac h plane. A m I c o rrect in my memory on that? M R . A N DERSON: loads. Some of them had differ ent S o m e h a d incendiaries. The General’s a i r c r a f t h a d b a sically incendiaries because they w e r e s u p p o s e d t o go off at night time and he was g o i n g t o h e l p l ight the way for them, but because t h e y d e p a r t e d e arly, that program didn’t work for them. M R . M O RAN: Got ya. I don’t know exac tly w h a t y o u d o t o keep it simple on the front. When y o u s e e t h e a l l -news reels, the B- 25 is taking off th e c a r r i e r , w e don’t talk about how it sinks below th e h o r i z o n . Y ou can’t see it, and then it po ps ba c k u p , w h i c h is what it did. M a y b e a three- quarters aerial view of part 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company of the aircraft. 79 I’m at a loss on that. I think t h a t p r o b a b l y d emands the four squadron patches be t h e r e i n s o m e a rrangement or format. I r e a l ly don’t know how you get the fr ont t o e x p r e s s b o t h the Army and the Navy, but it needs t o b e t h e r e i n some form or format. T h a t ’ s all I have, Gary. M R . M A RKS: Thank you, Michael. M S . W A STWEET: Here I am. h a v i n g t r o u b l e with my mute button. Heidi ? I’m sorry. I’m As I’ve stated i n t h e p a s t , s i mplicity and using symbols to p o r t r a y l a r g e r concepts, there was a meeting a few m e e t i n g s b a c k w here we talked about when a symbol i s a p p r o p r i a t e and when is it right to be more literal. I t h i n k this is a case where it is a p p r o p r i a t e t o be more literal because we are p o r t r a y i n g o n e specific act rather than a broad s c o p e o f c o n c e p ts. I would be in favor of the more l i t e r a l a p p r o a c h of showing the planes taking off a n d g o i n g o n t h eir mission as they are ramping up. I t h i n k t h a t w o uld be a fine image to use in this 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 80 case. T h a t i s all the comments I have. M R . M A RKS: Okay. Thank you, Heidi. Donald? M R . S C ARINCI: Am I to understand ther e a r e o n l y t w o s u rvivors? M R . A N DERSON: No, sir. There are fou r. W e h a v e L t . C o l . Richard Cole, David Thatcher, Ed S a y l o r , a n d B o b by Hite. health. Bobby Hite is in poor H e w a s one of the four POWs that came home after the war. There are only four left of the 80 men. M R . S C ARINCI: I see; okay. Far be it for m e t o q u e s t i o n the wisdom of what Congress does with history. I think you should take the o p p o r t u n i t y h e r e to do something creative with this medal. T h e r e a re only four survivors. Maybe this i s o n e y o u c o u l d--we talked about doing an annual a r t m e d a l a n d u se it as a competition. This might b e o n e t o d o s o mething creative, give the artists s o m e c o m p l e t e l icensing to do something with this. I t i s really more a memento to history . 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 81 I t s e e m s t o m e a Gold Medal should have been a w a r d e d a l o n g , long time ago, so we are just going back in time. I assume the criteria is that s o m e b o d y h a s t o be alive. Otherwise, we should go b a c k t o t h e C o n tinental Congress and award e v e r y b o d y w h o s igned the Declaration of I n d e p e n d e n c e a n d their descents a Gold Medal. I t h i n k I would use this as an opportu nity f o r t h e a r t i s t s to do something creative. That’s it. M R . M A RKS: M S . L A NNIN: Thank you, Donald. Hi. Mary? I think what we shou ld d o i s - - i t i s i m portant to the stakeholders that the U S S H o r n e t s o m e how be pictured, it could be rather small. A B -2 5 launching toward us, like get o ut of t h e w a y , h e r e I come, would show a lot of action, a n d y e t b e f a i r ly simple. I w a s going on line and looking at wha t t h e s t a r s w e r e represented on like a B- 25. It’s a b a n d o n e i t h e r side of a blue circle with a white s t a r i n t h e c e n ter. That seemed to be significant i n r e g a r d t o t h at particular aircraft, and possibly 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 82 t h a t c o u l d b e w orked somewhere in the back. I t h i n k the 17th Bombardment Group alo ng w i t h t h e m e n t i o n of the Doolittle Tokyo Raiders may be enough. I t hink if we have the four squadron p a t c h e s , t h e n w e get into all sorts of a messy f i e l d t o l o o k a t. T h a t ’ s all I have to say. M R . M A RKS: Thank you, Mary. M S . S T EVENS- SOLLMAN: Jeanne? Thank you, Gary. I ’ m i n a g r e e m e n t with having the USS Hornet r e p r e s e n t e d a l o ng with the B- 25 on the obverse, but o n t h e r e v e r s e , I really think we have to have some s y m b o l i s m w i t h the patches. By utilizing that, we h o n o r b o t h S e r v ices and also the four squadrons t h a t w e r e i n v o l ved. T h i s c ould be so very simple, but in d oing t h a t , I t h i n k w e address each of these groups equally. T h e r e is only one mission, so we have an o p p o r t u n i t y t o make a real powerful comment for the Raiders. T h a t ’ s all I have to say. M R . M A RKS: Thank you. Thank you, Jeanne. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Tom? Capital Reporting Company M R . U R AM: Thanks, Gary. 83 I do like th e i d e a o f t h e o b v erse being the carrier and the plane taking off. I t is really a great symbolic gesture t o t h e m i s s i o n as well. On the reverse--the w o r d i n g w o u l d b e appropriate on the front as well. O n t h e reverse, like most of the membe rs, I ’ m n o t b i g o n maps. This might be an appropriate o n e t o h a v e t o p ography of some sort, showing m o u n t a i n s o r s h owing the different topography that w o u l d h a v e b e e n relevant for the mission, I think t h a t w o u l d b e g reat, because you have the obverse a n d y o u c o u l d u se the wording appropriately, and s t i l l i n c o r p o r a te the task and the joint efforts. I t h i n k if the engravers could make it not f l a t m a p l o o k i n g but make it topography looking, I t h i n k i t w o u l d be a nice way to create an obverse a n d r e v e r s e t h a t would be appropriate for the theme. T h a n k you, Gary. M R . M A RKS: M R . H O GE: Thank you, Tom. Robert? Thank you, Gary. I, too, a p p r o v e o f t h e idea of trying to show the Hornet. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company 84 P r o b a b l y a l l o f us know the Hornet was sunk by the J a p a n e s e l a t e r in the year, as well as the loss of a d d i t i o n a l A m e r ican lives. W h e n y ou think of the whole combined r aid, w i t h a l l t h e a i rcraft crashing, the ship eventually s i n k i n g , i t i s like the fore lore hope of a d e s p e r a t e m i s s i on for the sake of trying to gain a v e r y i m p o r t a n t advantage. I ’ d l i ke to call attention to the avia tion m e d a l s o f t h e p ast, when we think of these things. T o d a y , w e a r e a ddressing three aviation medals of o n e k i n d o f a n o ther. Some of the most effective o n e s t h a t h a v e ever been produced really are back i n t h e a r t d e c o area where symbolism triumphs over a l o t o f r e a l l y representational images. I d o n ’ t know how we can do this with t his p a r t i c u l a r i m a g e because I think the B- 25 bomber is g o i n g t o b e p a r ticularly important to try to d i s p l a y , b u t I ’ d like to see a cut back in some of t h e t e r m i n o l o g y and references. I don’t think “ 1 7 t h B o m b a r d m e nt Group” says very much, and I d o n ’ t t h i n k t h e images of the patches of squadrons 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company r e a l l y d o e s v e r y much either. 85 It’s like what we h a v e s e e n o v e r and over again with the clan images o n t h e A m e r i c a n Indian medals, for instance. T h e i d ea of a desperate mission and th e i m p o r t a n c e o f a cause or the heroism of the people i n v o l v e d i s s o m ething we need to try to epitomize i n t h i s a s m u c h as possible. I’m not sure exactly how to do this. T h e a i rcraft image can be powerful. T he i m a g e o f a n a i r man volunteering for a desperate m i s s i o n w i t h o u t even knowing what it is. effort involved. It’s a heroic thing. The great Just how we c o n v e y t h i s o n a medal is a difficult matter. M R . M A RKS: M R . H O GE: M R . M A RKS: Are you done, Robert? Yes. Okay. Thank you. u s t o t h e e n d o f this discussion. That br ings However, I will a l l o w a f e w m o r e follow up’s if any member feels t h e y h a v e s o m e t hing additional to contribute. ( N o r e sponse.) M R . M A RKS: It looks like we have no taker’s there. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company M R . A N DERSON: 86 Gary, I’d like to say s o m e t h i n g , i f t hat is okay. M R . M A RKS: Please, go ahead. M R . A N DERSON: comments. I appreciate all of you r I a m also anxious to see what you all c o m e u p w i t h , b ut I would like to say that the R a i d e r s , t h e f o ur we have left, they really would l i k e t o s e e t h e aircraft carrier and the B- 25 c o m i n g o f f t h a t , and we wanted to include the a i r c r a f t c a r r i e r because of the support and the h e l p o f t h e N a v y, and that was mentioned. s u n k i n O c t o b e r of 1942. It got They did build another H o r n e t l a t e r o n , which was CV- 12. A g a i n , we wholeheartedly support that e f f o r t , a n d w h a t you guys do on the obverse side, a g a i n , w e s u p p o rt you. is going on. We are anxious to see what W e want to get this done as quickly a s p o s s i b l e a n d get the Speaker to set a date so we c a n h a v e t h e c e remony and not lose any more of t h e s e t r u l y g r e at heroes before it is too late. M R . M A RKS: Thank you, Mr. Anderson. T h a n k y o u f o r a ll your work on this project. 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com Capital Reporting Company M R . A N DERSON: M R . M A RKS: 87 Thank you. With that, I’ll ask the Mi nt s t a f f i f t h e r e is any other subject matter that we n e e d t o d i s c u s s today. M S . S T AFFORD: M R . M A RKS: There is not. Okay. I want to thank the m e m b e r s f o r a l l of your good work in preparation f o r t h i s m e e t i n g and your contributions in it. I w a n t t o t h a n k a ll the individuals who have worked o n t h e s e p r o j e c ts and contributed to our discussion today. I a l s o want to thank the Mint staff for all y o u d o f o r u s a ll the time. W i t h t hat, I hope you have a great sum mer d a y , e v e r y o n e , and thank you for being part of this meeting. W e a r e adjourned. ( W h e r e upon, at 2:52 p.m., the meeting was adjourned.) 866.488.DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com