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1 United States Mint Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting Wednesday, July 24, 2013 The Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee met in the 2nd Floor Conference Room A at the United States Mint, 801 9th Street N.W., Washington, D.C., at 9:15 a.m., Gary Marks, Chair, presiding. 2 CCAC Members Present: Gary Marks, Chair Michael Bugeja Erik Jansen Michael Moran Michael Olson Michael Ross Donald Scarinci Jeanne Stevens-Sollman Thomas Uram Heidi Wastweet List names and relevant titles/associations here, without capslock except where appropriate for acronyms Staff Present: Steve Antonucci Betty Birdsong Don Everhart Bill Norton April Stafford Megan Sullivan Greg Weinman Also Present: Marcus Chaves, Pueblo of Acoma Chris Cornelius, Oneida Nation William Esteban, Pueblo of Acoma Loretta Metoxen, Oneida Nation Eugene ‘Geno” Talas, Hopi Tribal Liaison On the next page, you will find the Table of Contents list . Do not delete it or adjust it in any way. When you’re finished creating the document, you will be able to update that page to show the correct Table of Contents by right clicking on the text, “Error! No table of contents entries found,” and selecting “Update Field” from the context menu. 3 Contents Call to Order 4 Review and Discuss Candidate Designs for the Code Talker Recognition Congressional Medal Program 4 Pueblo of Acoma (New Mexico), Mr. Esteban. 5 Hopi Tribe (Arizona), Mr. Talas ................. 11 Oneida Nation (Wisconsin), Ms. Metoxen .... 18 Ponca Tribe (Oklahoma), Ms. Stafford ........ 50 Tonto Apache Tribe (Arizona), Ms. Stafford 51 White Mountain Apache Tribe (Arizona), Ms. Stafford (Arizona) ................................... 53 Adjourn 72 4 Proceedings (9:13 a.m.) Call to Order Chair Marks: Good morning, everyone. I'm calling this Wednesday, July 24th, 2013 meeting of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee to order. Thank you. Review and Discuss Candidate Designs for the Code Talker Recognition Congressional Medal Program Our one item on the agenda today is the Code Talker Program and I'll look to April for her staff report. Ms. Stafford: Thank you. Public Law 110-420 authorizes the Secretary of the Treasury to strike Congressional medals to recognize the dedication and valor of Native American Code Talkers to the United States Armed Services during World War I and World War II. Unique gold medals will be struck for each Native American Tribe that had a member who served as a Code Talker. Silver duplicate medals will be presented to the specific Code Talkers or their next of kin. Bronze duplicates will be struck and made available for sale to the public. As a reminder of our process for this program, in late January 2013, we received from the Secretary of Defense an updated list of Native American Code Talkers who served in the Armed Forces during World War I and World War II. The list was organized by tribal affiliation and the number of tribes has grown from 25 to 32. Each tribe was contacted to establish a design concept and asked as well to appoint an official liaison who works directly with us, the United States Mint, as well as their tribal historian or other expert for design reviews. 5 The Department of Defense designated the United States Army Center of Military History as our liaison. The team reviews all obverse designs for historical accuracy of uniforms and equipment. I'd like to note that the United States army Center of Military History is still completing their historical review of the six candidate obverse designs you're seeing today. The obverse designs represent the Code Talkers dedication to military service. While the reverse designs feature iconic symbols or elements unique to the tribe. There are no required inscriptions. However, for design consistency, obverse designs include the tribe's name, Code Talkers and if desired, a language unique to the tribe and reverse inscriptions include World War I and/or World War II as applicable to the war served and Act of Congress 2008. In today's meeting, we will review obverse and reverse designs for Pueblo of Acoma Tribe, Hopi Tribe, Oneida Nation, Ponca Tribe, Tonto Apache Tribe and White Mountain Apache Tribe. Okay. Pueblo of Acoma (New Mexico), Mr. Esteban Okay. So, first, the Pueblo of Acoma from New Mexico. We have with us today Mr. Marcus Chaves, the Vice Commander of American Legion Post 116 and Mr. William Esteban, Adjunct for the American Legion Post 116. We welcome you. Thank you very much and I'd like to pass the mike to them if they'd like to make some opening comments. Mr. Esteban: (Speaking in Native language.) That's my Native language saying good morning to all of you and greetings from Pueblo of Acoma and I gave a brochure on where we're from. 6 And just to start off, we appreciate your invite here. I've been back here and my colleague has been here before, but when he was in the Service. Both of us are veterans. I'm a combat veteran of Vietnam and I'm the Adjutant for the American Legion Post 116. To start off, I appreciate the opportunity to come before you and to address you. My Pueblo has been in existence from around 11501200 AD and we continue to have our village exist on top of the village. So, both of us are here from Hopi. They claim to be the longest inhabited village in the United States. But, I think we're all about -our ancestors were there about the same time because there's so many coexisting type of culture and values that we have. And we always open our meetings with a prayer. We always address our elders that have passed on with a small prayer. If you don't mind, I would like to do that. (Praying in Native language.) Thank you. In my own language, I asked our elders to give me guidance to present to you this morning what our design is all about. And as you look at the reverse design 03, I'll go ahead and go through the design because I'm only allowed so many minutes. So, I'll just go right to it. From the very top, all of these -- the design itself just came about when I was lieutenant governor in the administration in 1985. The center portion if you can sort of look at it, that's the shadow of Pueblo of Acoma and I started that myself with, you know, just doodling. You know how we like to doodle and it came about and then I asked my nephew to refine it for me. Right below it, we have the two canes. Okay. The two canes symbolize when the Spaniards and the Mexicans were influenced at Pueblo of Acoma and that's our governmental system. 7 But, later on, Abraham Lincoln came as part of that silver-headed cane and that was when the United States overtook our country and our people and so, that's what we continue to live under in today's existence. We have two type of government systems. Our traditional one and this one in the -- which we call the governor and lieutenant governor and so on down. There's five men that are in the administration portion of it. So, that's the reason why it's there. Right above it, we call that Huwanka which is the sky and we still have that clan, but they're -- they oversee much of the traditional way of life both in the Catholicism that we have. We have St. Stephen at Acoma which is the big church that you see in the brochure. And right above, I'll start from the top, that's the Antelope Clan and that one oversees the traditional way or life and also the existent appointment of the governor and his staff. Each year we have a man appointed to these positions without no hesitation. We have to accept it. I have been in those positions five different occasions. One as -- twice as a lieutenant governor and three times as a tribal interpreter and I came back here many times with several of the elders and I have a sort of funny thing that when I grew up, I grew up with my elders and I was always called junior because I'm Bill Esteban, Jr., but they would never say junior. They would all say `junyah' (phonetic), you know. That's their way of addressing me. So, anytime that I came back here to Washington, the elders would all say well, we'll let `junyah' (phonetic) speak for us. So, they -one time, they were laughing at that. But, anyway, we also have our traditional leaders that are appointed by Antelope Clan. To the right, you see the Eagle Clan. There's two 8 type of Eagle Clans, the Zuni and the Acoma Eagle Clan. Coexistence with other Pueblos like Hopi and Zuni and other Pueblos. In New Mexico we have 19 different Pueblos in New Mexico. So, that's how it came about with that clan. The Sun Clan is who I am. The Sun Clan has three different clans. One from Laguna and then the traditional Acoma which I am and then also Zia. So, that's how we're identified through our maternal mothers. That's where our clan comes from. We also have smaller clans which like for myself my father's clan would be that smaller clan and my father, if I may, dropped down to where the pumpkin and the pottery is. That's the Corn Clan. There's two type of Corn Clans. One is red. One is yellow. But, in my case, both of them are my small clans because my grandfather was Yellow Corn and my dad was Red Corn Clan. So, that's how those are identified. But, you always identified yourself with that. Right below the sun is the Bear Clan. The Bear Clan is very strong and sometimes it relates to the Medicine Clan. So, sometimes, they're very strongly influenced within the village of some of the doings that we have. Right below it is the Pumpkin Clan. The Pumpkin Clan and straight across on the other side you see a Parrot Clan. Those two are coexistent because they take care of traditional things and one of the main subsistence in our food is salt. So, they're the caretakers of the mother salt. In the Corn Clan, they have their own. Also, they try to get away from the Pueblo long time ago, but what happened was intermarriages could not coexist among themselves. So, they rejoined the Pueblo. 9 And the Red Corn and the Yellow Clan still have their own society which they just finished. Every five years, they have an activity that takes place and they're the firekeepers or the fire caretakers. The Water Clan is no longer existent. It's a clan that was very important a long time ago. My Pueblo used to put pottery full of water here, there, throughout the reservation and throughout the country. So, that if somebody needed water, they would, you know, have that water. The Iste Clan which is the Mustard Seed Clan. This is the one that we had told Betty that we did not want big leaves on there because the leaves are very small, very tiny. So, that's the reason we wanted to come back to the smaller leaves if you make and that's the one -- that's the only thing that we really wanted to make sure that. But, it's not -the clan is not in existence anymore. They've died out. Right next to it which is the Oak Clan. The Oak Clan is also a caretaker of some of the activities and they have a certain place in the kiva that they have to sit when we have our certain initiation ceremonies. The Parrot Clan, like I said, I think that came about -- and Marcus is part of that clan and they coexisted with -- I think the Parrot Clan, when it was discovered, a lot of that came from South America tribes with the macaw feathers and today, we still use those very much in our religious ceremonies. The Turkey Clan is very important, too, because they have their own family, but that one was getting very -- dying out, but they are now growing a little bit more. My wife is Turkey Clan and there's a thing that I wanted to bring about this clan is that in the other villages like Hopi, like my wife is from Santa Anna, they have those clans and every time that we go to a different village, they would always identify who we are and then you might find a relative there. So, that's kind of important because 10 the Turkey Clan has a lot to do with our religious way of life. Even some of our prayers, our prayer items that we use, the turkey feathers have to be included. And the Roadrunner Clan is right next to the Antelope Clan. So, those are another clan that's also very minute. But, I think all these clans in all you might want to say is that they coexisted with each other and they somehow sort of relate to one another and it's hard to explain in the English language, but I could certainly do it a lot clearer in my language because it's difficult to come across with that type of tie-in if I only have the clans. And then on the right side, on the right side of the design, those are the colors that we -- basic colors that we have. North is -- let's see. I have to think because when we pray, when we say our prayers, that's how we always pray to the north first. So, it's the yellow and then the blue. Red is south and then white is east. Okay. So, that's how we determine the colors. And then in our prayers also, we always indicate that that's the direction. Notice that we don't go clockwise. We go counterclockwise. We go north, west, south and east in our prayers, in our prayer feathers and everything. That's also part of the colors that we have. In the designs of like the kilt, like the belt, they're all, you know, encompassing those colors. That's the reason why we tried to stick with those colors. But, nowadays, the younger ones, they try to modify these things and it's okay I guess, but as long as they, traditional realize that these are our basic colors. And on the other side, that's the one that sort of goes on some of our traditional clothing, attire and that's how we identify ourselves. 11 And that's basically -- I think that's what I have to share with you this morning, but if there's any questions, you know, let me answer. Chair Marks: Thank you, sir. I think we're going to have our staff go through the other medals and then when the Committee has its discussion, we may have questions for you. But, thank you very much for your very informative presentation. Mr. Esteban: Thank you. Ms. Stafford: Thank you. Okay. So, to review the Pueblo of Acoma obverse designs, the obverse designs feature Pueblo of Acoma Code Talkers carrying out different communication tasks. In design one, the Code Talker waits for orders on a beach in the South Pacific. Design two depicts a Code Talker quickly writing orders in his native language. Both designs are inscribed Pueblo of Acoma and Code Talkers. So, if we could go back to obverse one, this was the tribe's preference. Mr. Esteban: Yes. Yes. Ms. Stafford: And obverse recommended design by the CFA. two was the And moving on to the reverse designs, they feature variations as said of the Pueblo of Acoma flag. The clans are depicted in the flag as described by Mr. Esteban. So, I won't review that and the designs are inscribed with World War II and Act of Congress 2008. So, here we have reverse design one. Two which was the preferred design by CFA and reverse design three, the tribe preference. Hopi Tribe (Arizona), Mr. Talas Okay. And we can move on to the Hopi Tribe, Mr. Chairman. 12 Chair Marks: Yes, please go ahead. Ms. Stafford: So, today from the Hopi Tribe we have a representative Mr. Eugene Talas. I'd like to invite him to give us some words. Mr. Talas: (Speaking in Native language.) Good morning. My name is Geno Talas. I'm with the Hopi Tribe. I'm happy to be here among this esteemed Committee. I'd like to first say thank you to Betty Birdsong for her guidance and her expert help in helping us design the medal designs and then, of course, your design department coming up with all the designs that we have. I'd like to also acknowledge my papa here because he's Sun Clan and my father is Sun Clan, too. So, in that way, we're related one way or the other like we're talking about our clan system. So, we're related in that direction even though we're different tribes and different pueblos. But, as far as I gave everybody a packet. I hope everybody reviewed that overnight or yesterday. The Hopi Tribe has been in existence since the 1100s in the northeastern part of Arizona in the Four Corners area. The village of Oraibi is considered to be around 1100 AD. We're a nongaming tribe. Our reservation is surrounded entirely by the Navajo Nation and we have roughly about maybe 13,500 enrolled Hopi members. And traditionally, like the previous speaker said, we're closely related in our customs. We do have maternal clan systems. My clan system for my mom's side, my mother's side, is Bamboo Clan and my father's side is Sun Clan. I'm also a 30-year Air Force Veteran serving from the tail end of Vietnam to the beginning stages of the Iraqi War and I came back home to Hopi in 2005 where I worked about maybe a year or so with 13 the Hopi Day School as of all things a teacher's aid in a kindergarten. So, going from military leading young men and women down to the lowest level leading little kindergarten classmates and then finally, I got the job at the Hopi Veterans Services. And, of course, with the Congressional Act of 2008, we were involved with the design and research for the Hopi Code Talkers medal design and I'm happy to say with the matrix that we provided to the Committee and to the Army Historical Society which is also in your packet. It's that yellow piece of paper that shows that orange or that round matrix identifying the Acomas and the Lagunas and the Apaches and a couple more tribes. Hopefully, that the Committee will get in touch with those folks so their tribes are dedicated or recognized as well because we don't want to leave anybody out to get the recognition. Obviously, when this first came about in 2008, the Hopi Tribe's stance was that we had preferred that gold medals be issued to the individual Code Talkers. We tried to have our lobbyists change that bill, but unfortunately, it did not happen. So, at this point in time, reluctantly, we got with the Hopi Code Talker families and told them what exactly was going on and they will go ahead and accept the silver medal from Congress and at this point and stage, that's why I was appointed to be the liaison with the U.S. Mint to help design the design of the Code Talker Medal. Again, it's important that we work with you and hopefully, that you'll decide and approve our recommended positions on our design concept and the provisions of the front side and the back side and it's important to know that this is a living legacy not just for Hopis, but for all our Native Code Talkers that we retain our Hopi language and our native language and that we can share this with the rest of the nation as the time is fitting when they get presented later in the year. Hopefully, it'll come 14 to pass soon that the surviving families will actually get the medal. So, if there's any questions, I can go briefly over the design on the front side real quick if we want to do that. The U.S. Mint provided us I think seven designs and basically, we designed -- we came up with the concept because there was a total of ten Hopi Code Talkers. Eight were with the 81st Infantry Division, the Wild Cat Division and later on in 2010, we identified two other Code Talkers that were with the U.S. Army Air Corps with the 5th Army Air Corps. So, we envision to put a Hopi Code Talker in there along with the B-24 to identify the two Code Talkers that were with the Army Air Force. And the island was kind of to represent one of the island campaigns of Palau that they were participants in and the picture that we provided as the concept was the only known photo that we had of Floyd Dann who was actually talking on the radio. So, we provided that to the U.S. Mint. So, they gave us a couple of options to go with and we kind of zeroed in on number three. They wanted to show also somebody representing somebody actually paired up with the Code Talker looking through their binoculars and we had that provided. We got the second revision and when we got that second revision, we found out that the person in the binoculars kind of resembled a Navajo Code Talker. That might have been used by the photos. We wanted to make sure that was corrected. So, this is the one we kind of zeroed in. We thought maybe having the name -- their infantry number or their identified unit would make it too busy. So, we kind of zeroed in on this and we kind of wanted to make the soldiers look younger looking and then kind of move up the Wild Cat patch up on the shoulder. But, of course, we know that the Army has to make sure that that's accurate 15 according to legacy. And then the B-24, we kind of zeroed in on that one indicating that has a little bit more detail with the ball turret guns and the machine guns sticking out and then also we wanted to put their insignia of the 80th or the 90th or 380th, but again, we have to wait for the Army to make that decision and whatnot. So. And the other ones we thought were pretty good, but we kind of zeroed in on this particular one, number three. And then on the reverse side, there were three designs that came up. The first one was number one. We installed our -- the middle center of our Hopi Tribal Flag on the center round piece, again that goes back to traditions of our migration story. If you start from the upper top left and you make your way around counterclockwise, that indicates the four different worlds that we transition to as Hopis and as people here in this current land. First period was the first journey of our lifetime, the second, third and where the top upper right side, that's where we currently are existing as a human race and eventually we'll transition to the fifth world. On the opposite side, are the wording. We put hopilavayi. Meaning Hopi language. That's what they used during their war communications network and, of course, the other one, code never broken, kept America free. We wanted that inserted on the sides. Act of Congress in 2008, World War II. We had World War II on the top, but several of the members didn't want to associate war with hopilavayi being that Hopi in our way is more that we're peaceful. We don't want to -- we don't really like the term war kind of associated with hopilavayi because we're more of a peaceful nation. The only reason why we go to war, in this case, in 16 modern age, obviously, they got drafted or they volunteered. But, in the ancient days, it was more for defending our villages or our corn fields. So, we don't associate with the word warrior so much in Hopi because we tend to see ourselves as defenders and protectors rather than as warriors. And so, we figured that -- and then the corn on the side, that's the six corns. The three on each side represents not just only the corn that's the central part of our tribe, but we deal with raising our corn. We're a dry-farming community. We rely on faith and the rains that our prayers bring and our kachina dances during the summer months. But, that also represents the human life, all human and the corn and living beings and everybody that's associated with this life on earth and so, initially, we had thought that was the mountains, but actually, that's what we call Hopi land and as you notice, that's the roots going into the land that makes us more firm and founded on our land wherever you're at. Not just Hopis, but Anglos. Wherever you're at. This is where you're rooted into the land. So, we just want to make that point out to you this morning. That this actually is just representing the land and the roots going into the land that makes it firm into the ground and so, this is the design we chose and recommended from the Hopi Tribe. So, again, like I said, it's a privilege to be here to the Committee and kind of give you an insight how we got our designs and how we look, our perception of our way of life on Hopi. And we also extend an invitation to everybody to come to Hopi and come visit us at some point in your many visits. If you happen to be out west, come to New Mexico. See the Pueblo dances. Come to Hopi. See some of the dances and learn our ways and again, I exhort each and every one of you to also teach your young children to speak their own native language whatever background you're from because that's going to keep us rooted as 17 Americans. Thank you. Chair Marks: Thank you. Ms. Stafford: Thank you, Mr. Talas. Okay. So, to review, the obverse candidate designs, they feature one or more Hopi Code Talkers communicating on the field phone or using binoculars. Designs one and six include a representative of the Pacific island, the area where the Hopi Code Talkers served. Use of the island in the design is to represent the Hopi Code Talkers role in the initial invasion of Angaur Island in the Palau system on September 17th, 1944. The island also represents the other Pacific islands all the Hopi Code Talkers participated in during their military service. Design five shows soldiers in the lower field acting on the information provided by the Code Talkers. The B-24 Liberator shown in the background in all seven designs signifies that the Hopi Code Talkers are from the 90th and 380th Bombardment. Bombardment groups are were in the Pacific area of operations. Hence adding the B-24 Liberator to the design. The tribe specifically requested that we incorporate the following inscriptions on the obverse and reverse designs: U.S. Army, Kept America Free and A Code Never Broken. All of the obverse designs bare the inscription Hopi Code Talkers. So, first, we'll go to obverse one, two. Three which is the tribe's preference again and just to make note again for the Committee, there were additional modifications suggested by the tribe including 18 making the faces of the figures younger looking, perhaps adding detail to the Liberator depending on the feedback we receive from our historical review and addressing the facial features of the soldier with binoculars to be more representative of the Hopi Tribe. Obverse four, this was the CFA's preference and they recommended to replace U.S. Army with A Code Never Broken. Obverse five, six and seven. Okay. Moving on to the reverse designs. They are variations of the Hopi Tribe Flag which includes a circle with dots and stalks of corn on both sides. The flag symbols represent the Hopi way of life as Mr. Talas indicated. All of the reverse designs are inscribed with World War II and Act of Congress 2008. The inscriptions A Code Never Broken, Kept America Free and an inscription which translates to Hopi language are featured on the reverse. So, here we have reverse one which is the tribe's preference. Reverse two and reverse three, the recommended design from the CFA. Oneida Nation (Wisconsin), Ms. Metoxen And I can move us Ms. Loretta Tribal Historian Oneida veteran. on to Oneida. Today we have with Matoxen, Tribal Elder and Oneida as well as Ms. Chris Cornelius, an Welcome. Thank you. Would you like to address the Committee? you very much. Thank Ms. Metoxen: (Speaking in Native language.) Good morning, everybody. I'm not a fluent speaker in the Oneida language. But, at my age, I'll be 82 at my next birthday and I'm still learning. My grandfather spoke Oneida fluently as did many of our members of our family. This is Chris Cornelius. Chris Cornelius is my niece. 19 She is a veteran sergeant of the Army and I am also a sergeant of the Air Force. Just as a little aside, I am an ex-airborne radar technician on the fighters in the Korean War. You're welcome and thank you also. I think what I will do is tell you a brief history or Chris, did you want to say something first? Ms. Cornelius: No, I'm just glad to be here. Ms. Metoxen: Go ahead. Ms. Cornelius: Actually, I was a staff sergeant in the U.S. Army and I served eight years, four years active and four years reserves and I ended up as a drill instructor before I left and then I ended up at Fort Campbell for a few years which I had to go through the Air Assault School, too and that was very exciting. So, I'm really happy to be here and I'm really honored that you gave us this privilege and this honor to go back to our people and to our tribe and to develop and work on this design. So, we really appreciate it. Ms. Metoxen: I wanted to -- I'm the tribal historian. I've been that. I've worked for my tribe for 46 years and I've been the tribal historian for the last 17 and what I think I need to tell you is that the Oneidas were the first allies of the 13 colonies. We had about ten commissioned officers. My 15th great-grandfather among them, Honyery Doxtator and also our great-grandfather because Chris and I are -- this is the same relatives goes back to Old Chief Skenandoah or Oskenando. And many of our men died at the Battle of Oriskany, August 6th of 1776 in upstate New York. Also, we provided corn and corn is our basic food as well as the Hopis and Acoma as well -- as well as 20 many other tribes. So, we brought 600 bushel of corn to Washington's starving army at Valley Forge. Very few people know that. Valley Forge is not far from here. I went to Valley Forge and I said where are the Oneidas. You know, they leave us out always. But, we brought 600 bushel of corn there and Polly Cooper, a member of our tribe, was George Washington's cook at Valley Forge. So, we participated in a big way. General Lafayette was adopted by our tribe and we saved -- our ancestor's saved at Barren Hill Lafayette's army and you may remember that kind of thing. I wanted to tell you that also in 1812, the Oneida's came forward again. They saved and they won against the British fleet on Lake Ontario in 1812 at the Battle of Sandy Creek. We were there. We won and that ended the war effectively. It was in 1814, but it was the War of 1812. Now, if we go on to the design, I believe that this is the preferred one, but it was modified and I believe the gun was brought back so that you could see the end of the gun. The comment on our -- the two feathers up and the one back, those are eagle feathers and the Oneidas, one of the six nations of the Iroquois Confederacy, wore on their heads something called a gustoweh. Not the headdress of the Plains with many eagle feathers, but with eagle feathers nevertheless and so, the two feathers up and the one back represents those members of the Oneida Nation. Other tribes, other of the Iroquois Confederacy wore one eagle feather up/one back or two up and so forth so that it distinguished them one from the other and this is the distinguishment of the eagle feathers for the Oneida Nation. Chris, got anything on that comment? Okay. And that's the one we preferred of the various. 21 Now, this is our -- the reverse design. We have World War II up there. We have latiwanatenyehse. That's an Oneida word that means they changed the words. It's a whole -- our words are like a whole phrase, a whole descriptive phrase. And we have the great white pine tree which is a sacred tree to us. It's a tree of long leaves. At the bottom, you see four white roots of peace. Again, peace is an overriding theme for us. We believe in peace and nevertheless, we volunteer to keep the peace and to protect the land and the four white roots of peace go in the four directions to cover the world, to go completely around the world. And the world is represented by the turtle. That's the world turtle. Our story about how we came to be is based on this and we have three major clans, the Turtle Clan of which I am a member and the Bear Clan which is represented by the bear's foot or claw on the left and the Wolf Clan on the right and there are three subclans to each major clan. The eagle is at the top of the tree. The eagle is a spiritual bird that flies the highest and sees the farthest and sees danger when it is about to approach and warns everyone of that. Beneath the tree, the great tree of peace, there is a two-row wampum. It's called the Guswhenta. The Guswhenta was an agreement between the Dutch in 1613 at Albany with the Iroquois Confederacy that said there were two rows or two rivers and the native people would be in their canoe in one river and the white colonizers would be in their boat in their river and they would not cross and interfere with one another and that wampum belt, that's called a wampum belt, made of wampum shells or quahog shells still is in existence. Right now, on the 27th, there will be an armada of canoes starting from Albany, 2,000, more than 2,000 of them, going down the Hudson River to New York and they will land in New York on April 7th and they are celebrating the 400th year of the 22 Guswhenta. Which is an agreement, a peace agreement and that we thought was most important. The other attribute would be the six arrows and the war club that is buried beneath the tree of peace not to be brought up again. Bury the weapons. But, we had another diagram of this or another rendition of this where you could see the war club and you could see the six arrows and if you look on your dollar bill, you will see that the United States of America took 13 arrows and bound them and put them on the back of the dollar bill after this rendition. And I don't know that I have any more to include. The last one was our preference except that I think we made World War II darker. It would be dark like the paw prints of the bear and the wolf. Do you have any questions? Chair Marks: Are there any questions? Thank you very much. Ms. Stafford: Thank you. Ms. Cornelius: Did you need us to go over the other ones and what we didn't like about them or you just wanted us to cover what our preferences were? Ms. Stafford: I think we're good with your preferences and if there are questions, we'll come back. Chair Marks: Yes, at some point, the Committee is going to have a discussion and as we look at those, there may be questions and if there are, we'll direct those to you. Ms. Cornelius: Okay. Thank you. Chair Marks: At this point, April -Ms. Metoxen: Thank you very much. 23 Chair Marks: Thank you. Before you go on, I wanted to just have a brief discussion with the Committee about how they wanted to proceed. We've got six different medals we're looking at today. The suggestion has been made that perhaps we should split those up into kind of two sets of three. We could look at the three that we've just had reports on and then circle back and do the other three or we could just have the presentations all ahead of time and then one time through all six. So, is there a preference for the members? want to go to three? You Member Scarinci: I'd rather do it all and if the discussion lasts too long, we can just vote and leave. Chair Marks: Well, that would be my preference, but why don't we just have a quick show of hands? How many want to go two sets of three? Just put your hand up. One, two, three, four, five, six. Looks like -Member Bugeja: And I would like that, too, Gary. Chair Marks: Okay. It looks like the two sets of three have it. So, we've just seen the first three. Ms. Stafford: Yes, and I have just really quickly if I could go through the Oneida obverse and reverse. I, of course, won't repeat the -Chair Marks: Oh, yes, certainly. I'm sorry. Ms. Stafford: --- reverse descriptions. Chair Marks: Yes. Ms. Stafford: No problem. Chair Marks: Okay. Let's do that and then, members, if you can prepare. If you have any technical questions, we'll do those quickly for those three. Then we'll launch into our discussion. 24 Ms. Stafford: So, to see all of the obverse candidate designs for the Oneida Nation, first, they all feature various Oneida Nation Code Talkers in action. Design two, you will see has the Oneida headdress faded in the background while design three has the eagle feathers. They're inscribed Oneida Nation Warriors, Code Talkers and they changed their words in Oneida language. So, obverse one, two, three. This is, of course, both the Tribe's preferences as well as the CFA's. Obverse four and five. Moving on to the reverse designs, they feature the great white pine tree of peace as our esteemed guest described to us. I don't think there's anyone better than a tribal historian to review that. So, I will go no further. We have reverse one. The Tribe's preference. Reverse two and reverse three the CFA's recommended design. That's it. Chair Marks: Okay. Thank you, April. any questions from the Committee? questions. Are there Technical Heidi. Member Wastweet: For the Pueblo reverse number three, can we talk about how we're going to represent the different shadings? Member Jansen: Shadings on the kind of rainbow perimeter design you mean, Heidi? Member Wastweet: Yes. Member Jansen: Okay. Mr. Everhart: Well, I think it's pretty -- to me, it's obvious that we'll just attach the -Member Wastweet: Would you also stagger the -Mr. Everhart: The heights? 25 Member Wastweet: --- heights? Mr. Everhart: Could do that. Member Jansen: Do you have enough information to keep your texture inconsistent between the pattern on the left and the segments on the right? I want to make sure we get the colors or at least the mappings of the textures to the colors that are accurate with the drawing. Mr. Everhart: Well, we can approximate it as close as we can. Member Jansen: Okay. But, I just want to make sure we don't accidentally insult the tradition by get a texture crossed up because it's not clear. Mr. Everhart: You know, in heraldry, they have different crosshatchings and dots to represent different colors, but I'm not sure that that would be appropriate. We'll probably try and approximate the black and white texture the best we can on the sculpture. Chair Marks: Did you have more, Heidi? Member Wastweet: Yes. On the Oneida reverse number one, so, this is indicating that the letters will be raised and the paw prints will be incused. Is there a purpose to the oval around that? Mr. Everhart: I interpret that to be -- inside the oval would be raised and then the footprints would be recessed, would be incused. Member Wastweet: Is this going to be offered in a proof version? Mr. Everhart: There's no proof. Member Wastweet: the field? So, we could incuse right into 26 Mr. Everhart: Yes. Member Wastweet: oval? So, is there a purpose to the Mr. Everhart: You'd have to ask the designer. I'm not sure about that myself. Ms. Metoxen: Yes, I think that's just to specify to tie the three clans together. We are three clans of the total tribe and that's all. That's what that would indicate. Member Wastweet: All right. Thank you. Chair Marks: Does anyone else have -Member Bugeja: quick question. Gary, this is Michael. I have a Chair Marks: Okay. Go ahead. Member Bugeja: Can we find out the Tribe's preference of the reverse of the Oneida? Is it one or three? Ms. Stafford: It's one. Member Bugeja: One. Okay. Thank you. Chair Marks: Are there any other questions? Member Jansen: questions. Gary, I have a number of Chair Marks: Hold on. Mike, did you have a question? Okay. Go ahead, Erik. Member Jansen: A number of questions. I know, Betty Birdsong, you're in discussions with the Department of Defense to make sure that the -- can you update the Committee on kind of what the issues might be there and where you are in that process? Ms. Birdsong: I actually heard from DoD yesterday. They've been on TDY and they're back in today. 27 They emailed me yesterday that they were finishing up their review and would hopefully get it to me today. Member Jansen: What do you sense issues are that they might raised that might require -Ms. Birdsong: Some of the weaponry. Maybe discuss some of the helmets. May be discussed and a couple of the uniforms. Elements on the uniforms will be discussed as well. Member Jansen: So, these are basically potential tweaks to obverse designs across all three tribes? Ms. Birdsong: Yes. Yes. Well, actually, for all six. Member Jansen: All six that we'll hear today? Ms. Birdsong: Yes. Member Jansen: Okay. All right. So, that's a little hard to codify today and we may at the end here, Gary, want to make sure we give the Mint the authority to do those necessary changes even though we won't see them. Second of all, on the Pueblo design, I have a question from our Tribal Nation Representatives. One of the symbols that is really interesting on your reverse designs -- I'll wait until they get there. I think any one of the reverses will show this. Above the Pueblo is what appears to be a fast moving cloud. Go -- there we go. Can you give us the significance of that cloud? Mr. Esteban: Yes, sir. The significance of the cloud is, you know, sometimes a lot of people don't appreciate the wind, but that's part of our also culture. So, that's included because they're the ones that bring the clouds and the wind is also twofold. You know, it can do damage, but it can also give you the air to breathe. 28 So, that's the reason why it's in there. That's the significance of bringing the clouds, bringing new life and also at the same time, the reverse. It can do damage and you know from today's world how it has done that. But, it's still part of our society and it's recognized as such. Member Jansen: Thank you. Mr. Esteban: Um-hum. Member Jansen: Thank you very much. On the obverse number three design for the Hopis and this was mentioned and I know the obverse three is the Tribal preference as well and so, I want to be clear to the Committee. The drawings that we have in our packet have a different face both of the foreground speaker and the background binocularsbearing soldier. Can you summarize again the design that we would be approving if we voted for obverse three? Is it the one in our packet or is it the one you're showing visually here? As being the Tribe's preference, I want to make sure that the Committee understands what an affirmative vote on obverse means. Ms. Stafford: Apologies. We were just working something out with our Oneida Representatives. So, if you could please if you don't mind, repeat that to insure that we have the proper answer. Member Jansen: Okay. Obverse three has been described as the Tribe's preference for the obverse design of this medal and when you show obverse three on the screen as you are right now and did previously, it is a distinctly different pair of faces than is in the packet that was distributed to the Committee ahead of time. So, I'm trying to just make it very clear. A vote -an affirmative vote for obverse three, would that be 29 a vote for what we're seeing on the screen or a vote for what is in our packet? Ms. Birdsong: We are actually still working with Hopi to make some changes to the faces. Of course, the uniforms have to be verified to make sure that the Wild Cat patch is accurate. Member Jansen: Um-hum. Ms. Birdsong: The packets had already came out to you. So, we did not make the edits at that time. But, our intent is to make those edits and get them to Hopi to make sure we've captured them correctly. Chair Marks: Betty, does that mean the image on the screen is the more recent compared to what's in our packet? Ms. Birdsong: Yes, the design as you see on the screen is one iteration of the changes that we were going to make, but I believe -- and Geno can speak to it, but I believe he still wants the faces a little bit younger. So, we're still working those out. Mr. Talas: Yes, ma'am, this one that you're seeing right now is getting a little bit closer to what we prefer than you see in the packet. The one in your packet, the soldier with the binocular is more of a Navajo-feature looking person. That's why we wanted to make that change. To make him a little bit more Hopi facial features and we provided some pictures of our Code Talkers to try to help the Design Department. Maybe let that happen. So, it's getting a little bit closer. getting a little bit closer. Yes. So, this one's Member Jansen: Are there any comparable facial edits in any of the other obverse designs? Ms. Birdsong: I'm sorry. Member Jansen: Obverse one and two -- 30 Ms. Birdsong: Um-hum. Member Jansen: --- and then four, five, six and seven, will they be edited for facial changes similarly as three? Ms. Birdsong: Only if they're recommended. Member Jansen: Okay. So, if it's not a recommended design from us, there's no point in you pursuing it? Ms. Birdsong: Right. Member Jansen: Okay. So, am I to interpret that to mean if we recommend some -- any of the obverses we recommend would then be subject to a facial change according -Ms. Birdsong: Yes. Member Jansen: All right. We'll see if that -- we'll see how the Committee feels about that. Finally, on the Oneida, I want to refer to the feathers which really incredibly I -- personally, I think an incredibly interesting design feature in the obverse designs. I think we have five obverses here and I'm referring specifically to the feathers that would appear in obverse two in a background headdress and obverse three in a dominant background feature. Eagle feathers. The way they're in here they almost look like a white feather with black tips. Is that accurate or are they black feathers with white tips? White feathers/black tips is correct. Mr. Talas: Yes. Member Jansen: Thank you very much. Those are all my questions and comments. Thank you. Ms. Stafford: Yes, sir. Please. Mr. Esteban: On the obverse design for Acoma, as 31 we look at both one and two, I just recently got in contact with the family and they had -- Joyce had told me, one of the daughters of Paul Histia, had told me that he had served in, you know, World War II and he had kept, you know, a record of the things that have now surfaced. But, one of the things that he indicated was that it was in -- he was a bombardier and also being used as such. So, as I look at this, you know, one of the things that's kind of significant is the bombardier picture included in the coin. Is it too late now to change that type of thing or is it proper now to say that that should signify? Ms. Stafford: I think we can absolutely discuss it and incorporate it into the Committee's recommendations or considerations and we'd have to go back to the office and look at the time line again to insure that we could have this design ready for the presentation, of course, in November. Mr. Esteban: I understand. That's the reason why I thought I'd better ask. Because, you know, the two seems like proper for me, but at the same time, the Tribe when they -- the Tribal Administration looked at it, it went, I think, one. Right, Betty? Ms. Birdsong: Yes. Mr. Esteban: If things can't be changed, we'd prefer obverse number one. Ms. Stafford: Thank you. Member Jansen: This is for the Oneidas. On the two sides of the medal that you prefer, one thing is missing and that is Act of Congress. Is that something that you feel strongly should not be on there or is it - because typically, that's what goes on these to lend the respect of and dignity of the award? Ms. Cornelius: Exactly and that's something that 32 we had just discussed because I notice that also that it's not on there. So, if you look at this design here that we had, there were some suggested modifications even to this one which was to encompass or show all of the arrows and the -- in the war club such as in this one which is the change that we wanted. But, I also -- I just question that myself. Is should the Act of Congress be on there and I actually like it myself to be on there kind of like where obverse three was. I don't think we need the outline around it. If you could keep it open like that, I think that would be -- I would like that. Loretta, do you have any comments? Ms. Metoxen: with that. No, that's good. I think we can go Member Stevens-Sollman: Excuse me. The eagle on this rendition is in a different position. Do you prefer it this way or in reverse number one? Ms. Cornelius: Reverse preference for the eagle. Member Stevens-Sollman: much. Thank you. number Okay. one is our Thank you very Chair Marks: Okay. Are there other questions? Member Olson: I just want to clarify. So, number three for the reverse is the new preference? Ms. Stafford: No. Member Olson: No. Ms. Stafford: I was actually -- I would ask if I could recap just to insure we have all of the information. So, for the Oneida reverse, the Tribe's preference is one with the following recommended modifications. 33 That World War II at the top be incused as the claws on either side. The bound arrows and club be shown fully as in reverse three. As well as adding the inscription, World War II as in -- no, sorry. I apologize. Act of Congress 2008 as in reverse three. Does that summarize? Ms. Metoxen: Yes. Ms. Stafford: Thank you. Member Stevens-Sollman: Excuse me. So, April, we're going to keep World War II on the left and incuse it the way it is here? The way it is in -Ms. Stafford: That was the suggested modification from the Tribe. I don't know, Don, if you'd like to comment on that. Incusing World War II on this reverse one. Mr. Everhart: We can do it. That's not an issue. I don't think it will affect it aesthetically. That's really up to the Tribe. If that's their preference, that's what we'll do. Chair Marks: All right. Are there other questions? Okay. If not, is there a member who would like to start of the discussion? Member Olson: I'll go. Chair Marks: Go ahead, Mike. Member Olson: Okay. All right. First and foremost, thank you to the veterans here. Tough drill sergeant over there. You don't mess with the drill sergeants. So, it's quite an honor to look at these every time we have the privilege of looking at these gold medals for the Code Talkers. And starting off with the Pueblo, the obverse of 34 number one is the -- I got to get to the right one here. Yes, there we go. That looks fine with me. This is the one that the gentleman, the representative, this is the one that you want a bomber on there? Is that what I heard? Mr. Esteban: Yes, if possible. I had just recently talked to one of the -- indicated that. Member Olson: Okay. So, I guess, you know, with that in mind if it would be possible to modify that to grant their request, I would have no problem with that being a modification. I don't make the choice. Mr. Esteban: Right. Member Olson: But, I would recommend that. Mr. Esteban: Right. Member Olson: I would recommend that that would be done. On the reverse of number three, no issues there. The discussion on the different variants and gradients has already been done and I'm trusting that the Mint can do that justice. On to the Hopis, the obverse number three I believe was the Tribe preference and I got to say this is one of the best ones I've seen yet. It looks like an action movie scene and can't say enough good things about this. You know, I understand there's some modifications that may need to be made. Those should be relatively easy to do. I would go with the Tribe's preference. As well as on the reverse, no - I don't see any changes necessary there. With the Oneida's, the obverse of number three I believe was the Tribe preference and no real issues with that. I did want to point out there was one of these that's 35 just a caution for future artists. Obverse number one, it's got the soldier with the weapon pointed into the ground getting dirt in the barrel. That's not happening. That doesn't -Ms. Cornelius: That's what we brought up, too. That's unlikely that any warrior would put their weapon into the dirt. Member Olson: No. So, if you're going to reuse that one on another one, have him sling his arms so his weapon is pointed the other way. But, no, the number three is fine. It looks very good. It's got a representation of both the soldier and his heritage. The reverse, I'm glad we clarified the fact that the Tribe does prefer to have Act of Congress on there and I would go with the Tribe's preference. That concludes my comments. Chair Marks: Okay. Before we go any farther, I want to ask if Michael Bugeja -- are you ready to make your comments? Member Bugeja: Yes, Gary, I am. Chair Marks: Well, why don't you go ahead. Member Bugeja: Thank you so much and even though I'm not there and it's my loss that I'm not there to meet you, I wanted to thank all the presenters. I think this is one of the most special projects that the CCAC has worked on and I'm very glad to have heard all the testimonies. Essentially, I liked all of the Tribes' preference. I had a question on Hopi Tribe. Is the preferred number three on Hopi Tribe? Reverse. Ms. Stafford: Yes. Member Bugeja: Yes, that's what I thought. 36 Ms. Stafford: On reverse. Member Bugeja: Okay. I really am going to be very brief. I found almost all of the designs to have action, good orientation -Ms. Stafford: I'm sorry, Michael. I apologize. May I interrupt? You're asking for the Hopi Tribe reverse? Member Bugeja: Yes. Ms. Stafford: The reverse preference by the Tribe was one. I apologize. Member Bugeja: That's what I thought. Ms. Stafford: Okay. Yes, sir. Member Bugeja: I got the two confused with the Oneida. Now, I understand. I actually like one because the Kept America Free is on there and I think that's important to have. The one thing I wanted to sat on the Pueblo reverse number three is the textures on that particular design are absolutely beautiful and I can see why this has been a preference of the Tribe. So, essentially, Gary, I was content with all of the Tribal preferences for good reasons. Essentially, the artwork was fetching. It showed action. The medal is large enough to carry even designs that on a smaller dollar silver coin for instance would be considered busy. So, I really have no issues and I'm going to be supporting the Tribal preferences. Thank you all very much. Chair Marks: ready? Thank you, Michael. Member Wastweet: Sure. Heidi, are you I agree with the Tribe 37 preferences in almost all of these. So, I'm going to skip forward. On Pueblo reverse, the CFA preference was for design number two and I can see that they would like the clean aesthetics of this design, but I think what's more important here is the symbolism to the Tribe of design number three. So, I'm going to side with the Tribe for that reason. On the Hopi Tribe obverse, I just want to compliment the artist. I think the quality of this design -- the drawing is really outstanding and it was exciting to see this quality showing up in our packets. So, I'm going to go ahead and side with the Tribe's preference for number three. I can also understand why CFA is liking design number four. It's a tough decision between the two, but I'm going to side with the Tribe on number three. On Hopi reverse, I do prefer design number three for its cleanliness. I think that the extra wording on the design number one doesn't add anything of value. I think it just detracts from all of the beautiful imagery that we have and symbolism. My personal preference would be to go with the cleaner design of number three. On Oneida Nation obverse three which is the Tribe's preference, I think this is a beautiful design. I would just like to make note that I think the face is a little weak and if the artist could just address that in the sculpting stage. Do you have good references to work from, Don, on this? Mr. Everhart: We'll get it. We'll get it if we don't have it. Member Wastweet: Okay. I just wanted to make 38 note of that. The reverse, I'm going to go ahead and approve the Tribe preference as well. That's it. Chair Marks: Thank you, Heidi. Michael Moran. Member Moran: I'm only going to talk about the Hopi obverse three. Other than that, I'm certainly with the tribal choices. And like Heidi, I like three. I think the composition is good. The design is good. I've got to pick a little bit at the execution. Let me say that first of all, I like the hands. They're large. They're outsized. They denote power, strength and it's excellent and I don't want to see that lost in the medal itself. But, the problem you run into with those large hands is that the carbine, the M-1 carbine, looks very awkward in that composition. Particularly, the stock end of it. You don't get the perception of the distance. In fact, it looks like two different rifles there and that needs to be cleaned up. The B-24, I would ask Don a question on the propellers, the props. If you go to, use a bad word here, Google Images, and yes, the sculptors did go to Google Images on the B-24, I can show you the one they used. It was number one that popped up on Google Images. Not this one by the way. But, in most of those, the photographs did not capture the propellers, the props, in a clear sharp outline. It was more a blur and you could even go circular, but certainly, they blurred the propellers and I would -- if that looks good, that's executable on the die, I think it would be more realistic and it would give you that sense of liveness there. The ball turret at the bottom of the plane, the Army can help you on that. The B-24s came depending on which issue or which version of the 24 with and 39 without that ball turret. It would give you a cleaner line if you did not have to put the bottom ball turret in there. However, historical accuracy trumps on that one. I also have a sense that the fuselage, the back half looks just a little bit truncated and maybe would look better and more realistic if it were elongated. Again, I'm picking at what I think is an excellent composition and just a couple of tweaks here could make it look a little bit better. Mr. Everhart: Yes, one comment on the propellers. I've been sculpting planes for a long time and when they're in the air, I don't show the propellers because you can't see them literally when -Member Moran: That's true. No. Mr. Everhart: --- they're running and if you do see them, it means the plane's in trouble. Member Moran: You're right. Chair Marks: Okay. Thank you. Member Wastweet: Modify -Chair Marks: Pardon me. Member Wastweet: May I modify my comments? Chair Marks: Heidi, go ahead. Member Wastweet: I was just noticing since we're talking about this Hopi obverse, in the presentation, our guest commented that the Hopis don't consider themselves warriors as much as protectors and defenders and if we're looking between design number three and design number four which are the two preferences, design number four actually goes along with that a little bit better because it doesn't show the rifle. Whereas, design number three does show the rifle. 40 So, being a sentiment of the Tribe as defenders rather than warriors, I think four actually goes along with that theme a little bit better. Chair Marks: Thank you, Heidi. over to Tom now. Okay. We'll go Member Uram: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and thank you to our guests here today particularly about the history and more importantly about the heritage that you guys continue, definitely helps to build America and congratulations on that. I agree also with my colleagues on many of the designs that were picked from the Tribal preference. Just would like to make a couple of comments. And I can see in the Hopi Tribe the number three and the number four with that rifle, but either one would be great and once again the artist did a great job on all of these designs for the three that we're looking at. Just a comment on the reverse of the Hopi Tribe. I know that there was discussion on number one, the preference and number three. I like the idea that the symbol is centered there and maybe if three was chosen that the World War II would be moved below. That way I think the Tribe had mentioned that they did not want to emphasize that as much and that's why they went with preference number one. But, if you wanted to keep it clean, you could move that World War II below and that would still emphasize the meaning behind and not have the wording. The other comment would be on the Oneida Nation on the reverse. I certainly like the eagle on number one, the preferred design and the symbolism and so forth. My only question is why do we have this oval? Is there any particular reason why that oval is there 41 particularly when you're going to move -- where you're going to do some of the incused and you're going to add Act of Congress? Is there any reason why we have put that in a circle? Chair Marks: Tom, I think it was addressed earlier that that circle symbolizes the banding together of the different -Member Uram: Clans. Chair Marks: The different clans. Yes. Member Uram: Okay. Okay. It's not on number two. So, I just didn't know when you added the other parts there whether the Tribe felt that -- go ahead, Gary. Ms. Birdsong: Loretta has a comment. Ms. Metoxen: We thought that the oval would bind the three clans together, but I think it is also an artistically inserted item. So, it doesn't need to be there if it would clarify the design. Member Uram: Don, what do you feel on the medal as it relates to looking at design number two without it and the other two having it especially when we make the changes of adding the incused and we add the wording Act of Congress? Mr. Everhart: Well, do you want my personal opinion of which one I like better? Member Uram: Yes. Mr. Everhart: cleaner. I like number two because it's Member Uram: That was my only thought. Mr. Everhart: count. Yes, but my opinion really doesn't Member Uram: Well, I only bring it up because I thought it did look cleaner, but I also thought that - 42 - I don't know. I see that before I see the images and I think the images are important. Mr. Everhart: Um-hum. Well, I mean if that image of the oval is important to the Tribe in that it binds all the clans together and if that's what they want, then I think we should give them that. Member Uram: Right. So, I think that should be up to them, but I guess I'm just saying I would ask them to think about that on how that would be interpreted on that device. Mr. Everhart: Well, I think we have two ways of going on that. We can either -- we can incuse into the field if you just have a raised line or we can raise that whole oval and then incuse into that surface down to the field. So, there's two options to go on that and we'll have to work that out. Member Uram: Yes, and that might be the answer wouldn't look as popped in there. Everything's like popped into the oval. Mr. Everhart: Yes, it would be -- yes, it would be a separate element more so if it had relief to it I think. Member Uram: Right. Well, then I guess I would ask that you use your discretion in working with them on how they feel about it. Mr. Everhart: Okay. That's what we'll -Member Uram: Mr. Chairman. That's the end of my comments, Chair Marks: Thank you, Tom and Donald. Member Scarinci: Just that I'm going to go along with all of the Tribe's recommendations on these. I think the differences are all in the end quite subtle to us, but perhaps meaningful in a way that we don't understand to them. Therefore, I'm just supporting the Tribes. 43 Chair Marks: Michael Ross. Ms. Stafford: Mr. Chairman, just really quickly. The Tribe actually has a comment on the oval and I think it's important so -Chair Marks: Okay. Ms. Stafford: --- that we can incorporate it. Chair Marks: Okay. Ms. Cornelius: Okay. from the Tribe. Chris Cornelius responding Actually, I'm the Tribal -- the Historian for our Oneida VFW back in Oneida, too. So, I just wanted to clarify, and I spoke to Loretta, when we received the designs, the oval was artistically put in there. That wasn't by request of our Tribe or our committee that we had looking at these designs and I actually -- if you look at design number two, we actually like the clean design ourselves because the three clans are still in there. But, however, if you go back to design number one, if you were to take that line out, I still think that would look a lot cleaner and maybe take out that line that goes all the way around so you can put the Act of Congress underneath. And I think like -- just reiterate what Loretta had said. She said artistically, that line was put in there. So, you know, we don't necessarily require or would need that line in there if it would make the design cleaner. Ms. Stafford: And also, I would add, when the CFA made their preference while their preference was for three, they did actually say that their recommendation would be to remove the oval as well because that design also has it. 44 Chair Marks: Okay. So, the suggestion we just heard, just to be clear, is the preferred design would still be number one. Ms. Stafford: Yes. Chair Marks: But, just simply removing the oval. Ms. Stafford: Correct. Chair Marks: Okay. Ms. Stafford: As well as the other modifications we discussed. Chair Marks: Okay. We're not saying that they're switching to reverse number two as their favorite? Ms. Stafford: No. Chair Marks: Okay. Mr. Everhart: One other point, Gary, when we do add Act of Congress 2008 below the wampum belt there, I think we'll have to decrease the size of the artwork from top to bottom maybe 3 to 5 percent. Chair Marks: Right. Right. Mr. Everhart: Yes. Chair Marks: Okay. All right. So, that takes us to Mike Ross. Member Ross: Thank you also to our guests and I'm going to as many others have support the Tribes' recommendations. All of which I think are well chosen and I also want to note that I've been Googling over here and I am officially dumbfounded and outraged that there's no monument or marker to the Oneida at the Valley Forge National Historical Park. Ms. Metoxen: No, there is not, but there is up at Oriskany in New York. There is a -- sorry. Thank you. Up at Oriskany in New York, there is a monument and the officers of the Oneida Nation are 45 on it, but they are not in the same size as all the other officers that are on the monument. Member Ross: When was that monument built? Ms. Metoxen: Oh, years ago. I don't -- probably 50 to 60 years ago, but it's at Oriskany on the battlefield and the Oneida officers are named on it. Member Ross: Has there been a campaign at Valley Forge to get a marker? I think as a teaching moment for -Ms. Metoxen: Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Member Ross: So. Ms. Metoxen: There is no campaign, but there should be. I just wanted to add another little thing that I neglected to mention. Congress appropriates every year for us Oneidas $1800 for assisting George Washington in the Revolutionary War. Member Ross: Pretty good price for corn. Ms. Metoxen: I would say in deference to the Congressmen that very few of them know that fact. Member Ross: Yes. Something needs to be done. All right. Thank you so much for coming today. Ms. Metoxen: It does. Thank you. Member Bugeja: April and Betty, I think that we need to take these testimonies and make them into some kind of digital book or if not a digital book, a printed book because so many of these facts are not even known by Native American studies here at Iowa State and elsewhere. Thank you. Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. Okay. We'll go to Jeanne now. Member Stevens-Sollman: Wait a minute. This is on? Okay and thank you, Michael, for that suggestion to record all of these wonderful stories 46 and information and history and thank you for our guests for coming. Thank you very much. Thank you, ladies. Thank you. I'm overwhelmed with the drawings that were presented to us overall. I think we're very fortunate this time to have so many choices and, however, I do appreciate and go along with the Tribes' choices. Yes. Okay. The only question I have for the Acomas -- Acomas rather, if you took Code Talkers out and put a bomber in that same place, would that be something that would be acceptable to you? I mean we can put Code Talkers in another place lower or something. Would that work? Don? Mr. Esteban: I had said if it was possible, it could be okay. But, I think, you know, the Tribe had originally chose number obverse one because it has that Code Talker in there. Member Stevens-Sollman: is in there? Because a Code Talker Mr. Esteban: Yes. Member Stevens-Sollman: Fine. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Esteban: That's -Member Stevens-Sollman: Okay. Thank you and then I will go with the Tribal choice. For the Hopi reverse, there was some discussion about the text on number one and I understand that the text is important to our Tribe here and I have no exception to that. I really don't. I think it's important. We have a large medal and the information I think is very important for this event. So, I'm going to go with this one. And the Oneida Nation, I really appreciate all the information that was given to us and again, I'll 47 accept the Tribe's choice which is very good. Thank you so much. Chair Marks: Thank you, Jeanne. ready, we'll go to you. Erik, if you're Member Jansen: Yes, I am. I want to thank the Tribal officers and members for coming. One of the pleasure of doing the Code Talker discussions is, quite frankly, the integrity and the richness of the culture which is imbedded in what you bring to us and although most every design and Congressional action that we are authorized to undertake is an interesting one, the richness of what you bring is clearly unique to you guys and you gals. So, thank you very, very much. That makes this a unique pleasure for us. Second of all, I want to thank April and Betty. I know you guys work tirelessly on all of these details to not only respond to them as their surfaced at the last minute or otherwise. But, you try to keep it straight and kind and respectful the whole way and it's a hard thing to do. So, thank you very, very much. I am going to pretty much line up with the comments and the preferences that have been expressed and just once again say thanks to the Committee Members for the detail you commit to even today's process after going through all day yesterday and to stay true to our mission to make these the best designs they can be. Thank you. Chair Marks: Thank you, Erik and I'll just conclude this portion of our discussion by first echoing the comments Erik just made about our guests and our staff. I would also like to compliment the artists. As I 48 look through all the designs provided to us, I'm quite impressed. There's some really good work in here. In fact, I could go with almost any of these. Therefore, I can see no reason why not to go with the Tribal preferences. I think they need to take the priority, of course, as we seek to honor them in an appropriate way. So, I will be supporting all of the preferences expressed by the Tribe. So, at this point, I'm going to ask the Committee if there are any quick follow-ups? Heidi. Member Wastweet: Oneida reverse. I want to go back briefly to What I'm hearing from the representatives is they like elements of each of the three designs and they've requested some modifications already to design number one. We've talked about the oval. I understand that the oval is meant to tie the three clans together. It's not really what I see. It looks to me like the oval just ties together the two paw prints. So, I don't think it's effective. I don't think it really adds anything and if it's not an essential symbolism, I'm leaning toward just removing the oval and there was talk about this eagle versus that eagle. What I'd like to propose instead of voting on any three of these is sort of give the Tribe carte blanche to work with the artist to make these adjustments and make a clean design. I agree with Don's opinion about design number two being nice and clean. So, rather than us sitting here and trying to work this out, I'd rather just give freedom to the people involved to work that out amongst themselves because there aren't any big objections here to any three of these designs and rather than signing one of these to just go ahead and let them work that out 49 if everyone's in agreement with that. Chair Marks: Okay. Thank you, Heidi. any other quick follow-ups? Okay. Are there What I'll ask the Committee to do at the point is to fill out your scoring sheets for the first three medals. You'll notice that the second sheet includes another tribe that we haven't reviewed yet. So, what we'll go is go ahead and pass that sheet partially completed. When we're done with the tally, we'll pass that sheet back to you so you can fill out the bottom part. So, at this point, while the Committee's doing that, I'll ask April and/or Betty to go ahead and begin the presentation for the next three tribes. Ms. Stafford: If it's okay, Mr. Chairman, just very quickly, we really appreciate your feedback regarding the staff's work, but I would be completely remiss if I did not call out the fact that Betty Birdsong is obviously the Program Manager of this work and I think we all appreciate the fact that this program currently has 32 tribes with which Betty is working as well as Bill Norton as the Legislative Affairs Director and their work really is something to behold. And I would also like to take the opportunity before we move on to the other tribes to thank the representatives from Pueblo of Acoma, Hopi, and Oneida for being with us here today. So, appreciate you allowing me to insert that. So, thank you, Betty. work. We really appreciate your Ms. Birdsong: You're welcome. Ms. Stafford: you. Okay. Member Moran: Moving on to -- yes, thank April, could I interrupt for just a 50 second on procedure here. Ms. Stafford: Yes. Member Moran: Heidi's comment was solid and to the point and yet, I don't see how with the voting that we're able to do anything in terms of supporting what she said. Help. Chair Marks: Yes, our normal process, Mike, would be to go ahead and keep with our routine of the vote and if there's a follow-up motion, that will trump any vote. Member Moran: Fine. Chair Marks: But, in the absence of that, just to try to keep this clean, I'd like to stay to our traditions and then if we want to modify that after the fact, that seems like a more orderly way to do it. Ponca Tribe (Oklahoma), Ms. Stafford Ms. Stafford: Okay. Moving on to Ponca. Obverse designs. The obverse designs feature variations of the Ponca Tribe Code Talkers in action. The artists incorporated Chief Standing Bear in design two and Chief White Eagle in design four. Both respected leaders of the Ponca Tribe. They are inscribed Ponca Tribe Code Talkers. So, here we have obverse one, obverse two, three, and four. Four is the Tribe's preference. It was also the recommended design by the CFA and since some of the CFA's additional comments were informative to this Committee earlier, I would add that they noted that they would remove the radio waves so as not to -- and also that they would want an adjustment so that the soldier did not obscure the Chief's chin. Moving on to the reverse designs this is a variation of the Ponca -Member Wastweet: I'm sorry, April. you saying about the chin? What were 51 Ms. Stafford: So, to recap, the preference by the Tribe is design four as well as the CFA's preference. The CFA noted that they would remove the radio waves and adjust the soldier so that he did not obscure the Chief's chin. Member Wastweet: Okay. Thank you. Ms. Stafford: Um-hum. Okay. There's one reverse design. It's a variation of the Ponca Tribe Seal which consists of three clustered tepees and a sun in the background. It is inscribed Act of Congress 2008, World War I and World War II. The Tribe requested that we maintain the integrity of the seal and, therefore, we have this one design for consideration. Of course, it's the Tribe's preference and the one CFA recommends. Tonto Apache Tribe (Arizona), Ms. Stafford Tonto Apache Tribe of Arizona. The obverse designs represent the Tonto Apache Tribe Code Talkers and all designs are inscribed Tonto Apache Tribe, Tonto Apache, and Code Talkers. So here we have obverse one which is the Tribe's preference as well as the CFA recommended design. Obverse two and obverse three. Tonto Apache reverse designs. The reverse designs feature variations of the Tonto Apache Seal. The cross, which in this case is a representative of a star, bears four feathers, a streak of stylized lightning as depicted in Apache art, and four streamers. The designs are inscribed World War II and Act of Congress 2008. So, here we have reverse one which is the CFA's recommended design. Reverse two and reverse three. We would note on the Tribe's behalf that they prefer three for similar reasons as one of our guests spoke to earlier regarding the way the colors of the seal are represented in the design. The colors of the 52 seal of the Tonto Apache have additional sacred meanings. The black here for death and west. White for north and snow as well as life. Blue for the sky and south. Yellow for the sun and east. Green for the earth and red for fire and heat. So, moving through the reverse side, we show all of those. One, two, three. Okay. Member Scarinci: April, I guess I don't understand what you just said. There's no color issue on a medal. Ms. Stafford: The Tribe wanted to insure that we communicated the importance of their seal. Member Scarinci: Oh. Ms. Stafford: So -Member Scarinci: Oh, you were referring to why they prefer the band -- World War II as a band across the bottom as opposed to -Ms. Stafford: No, sir, I apologize. I apologize if I confused that. So, the integrity of their seal, the importance of their seal, they wished us to communicate. So, I wanted to insert those additional comments. But, reverse three as far as their preference, it remains obviously the way the seal here is depicted. Member Scarinci: And you're sure about that? They prefer World War II going through there? Really? Ms. Stafford: Any comments? Further comments? Ms. Birdsong: Nothing else. Yes, and I believe you might have that letter in your packet, but yes, they preferred three. Member Scarinci: Wow. Member Uram: Excuse me. CFA's choice on the obverse? But, what was the 53 Ms. Stafford: was one. The obverse, the CFA's preference Member Uram: And the Tribe's -Ms. Stafford: Yes, sir. And it's also the Tribe's preference. Chair Marks: And the CFA's on the reverse? Ms. Stafford: The CFA's preference was for reverse one. Chair Marks: Versus reverse three. Ms. Stafford: Yes, sir. Chair Marks: Thank you. Ms. Stafford: Certainly, if that letter for the Tonto Apache is not in your packet, we can get it and present it to the Committee. It's not a problem at all. White Mountain Apache Tribe (Arizona), Ms. Stafford (Arizona) Moving on to White Mountain Apache in Arizona, the obverse designs feature White Mountain Apache Tribe Code Talkers communicating in various war settings. Designs one and two depict the use of the field phone and note taking. While design three depicts the use of the phone and the silhouette of a Code Talker running to deliver the message. The designs are inscribed White Mountain Apache Tribe and Code Talkers. So, here we have obverse one which is the Tribe's preference. Obverse two and obverse three the recommended design by the CFA. And moving on to the reverse design, it depicts a variation of the White Mountain Apache Tribe Seal. The seal depicts a rainbow raising against the sky 54 over a landscape with an elk standing by a river near a traditional dwelling. In the distance -- do you want to? Go ahead. In the distance are snowcapped mountains while nearer at the base of the seal is a pine forest. An earthen Apache vase in the foreground is flanked by two feathers and a pair of lightening bolts near the outer edge of the seal. It's inscribed World War II and Act of Congress 2008. Obviously, this is also the Tribe's preference as well as the recommended design by the CFA. Chair Marks: Okay. Thank you very much. April, do we have any Tribal Representatives for these? Ms. Stafford: We do not. Chair Marks: Okay. Great. Okay. So, are there any questions from the Committee before we get into our design discussion? Heidi. Member Wastweet: On the Ponca Tribe obverse number four, you mentioned the CFA would like to move the helmet away from the chin. Which I agree with, but I don't see how. Do you have suggestions, Don? Mr. Everhart: Yes, they also recommended moving the radio waves which I concur. Member Wastweet: Right. Mr. Everhart: I think if you can't see them in their entirety, they lose their meaning. Member Wastweet: I agree. Mr. Everhart: And you wonder what's going on there. So, I would move the man with the telephone to the left a little bit and move the Native American Chief to the right a little bit. You may have to downsize the man with the phone, but it's doable. We can give some space between the helmet and the chin so it's not overlapped like that. 55 Member Wastweet: Do we then get an odd blank space up on the left? Mr. Everhart: I don't know. I think there's so much going on in the design that you're eye needs some relief and actually, I think it would compliment the design. You know, it depends on how it's done. We could -Member Wastweet: Yes. Mr. Everhart: --- reduce the size of both figures, the whole front vignette down maybe 10 percent and move it to the left a little and possibly move the portrait to the right bit and maybe downsize that. We can work with that. Yes. Member Wastweet: Okay. Thank you. Chair Marks: Are there other questions? Okay. Hearing none, is there a member who would like to start out? Member Scarinci: I'll start out. Chair Marks: Go ahead. Member Scarinci: You know, I'm certainly -- as to - oh, sorry. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. As to the first one, you know, oh. Hello. Okay. As to the first one, I agree with the Tribe and the CFA as to the obverse design and since there's only one reverse design, there's really nothing to talk about. As to design number two, as to Tribe number two, Tonto Apache, I can certainly also agree on the obverse design with the Tribe and the CFA. As to the reverse design, I just -- I don't know why they want to put World War II between -- you know, where they put it, but I have to believe that when they see it, they're not going to be happy and it doesn't make any sense that you would do that when you have perfectly good space, you know, in a circular way to put World War II. So, I'm going to 56 have to agree with the CFA's recommendation on this one and I'm going to give it a three. I just don't think the Tribe is going to be happy when they see World War II where they think they want it. As to the -- in addition, it does no harm. Moving it to the top does no harm to anything that I might not understand within their -- you know, within the design. So, for the -- and then, of course, for the reverse of that, the Tribe wants the first one. I don't see how you'd go for the first one when something as cool as the third choice exists and I just think the third -- I just think the reverse number three -- I'm on the reverse of White Mountain. I'm sorry. The obverse of White Mountain. I just think that's great. I mean I actually really think that's great. So, you know, I hate to -- you know, I guess I'm glad they're not here I guess. But, I can't go along with number one when number three exists and I just think number three is just a nice design. I think they're going to be really happy with it and I think the way the Mint will make that look will be spectacular especially in the gold. I mean, you know, I hope we get to see the gold. The reverse for that, there's only one. So, there's no choice. You know, so, this -- you know, I could press the Staples button. I can press the Staples button and say that was easy. Chair Marks: Okay. We'll go to Tom. Member Uram: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I agree on the Ponca Tribe also that the switching that and giving them the ability to move that. Actually, I didn't even realize that was radio waves. I thought it looked like ribs and it would look awful on a coin. So, I'm glad that that's going to be gone. Obviously, no discussion on the reverse. 57 On the Tonto Apache Tribe, I agree with the number one also. I think that their preference is good. The designs are nice there. On the reverse, I have to agree with Don here. You know, unless there's some reason why and actually, I wish they were here to say, you know, why they wanted that depiction of World War II above their motto. It seems like over top their symbolism there. So, I would be inclined to agree and go with the reverse number one on that simply because I think they will complement. I think that'll look good. And on the White Mountain, I think that teaming up obverse number three with what you have on the reverse is a great depiction. I think that we had similar of these yesterday and I really like number three and how it will complement with the reverse design that they've picked. Thank you. Chair Marks: Thank you, Tom. At this point, I'd like to go to Michael Bugeja for his comments. Member Bugeja: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm very pleased with removing the radio waves on the Ponca Tribe obverse number four. They don't look like waves because, you know, I work at Iowa State University of Science and Technology and their equal distance is absolutely wrong for a radio wave. So, thank you for doing that. I also support, of course, the Tribal Seal. On the Tonto Apache Tribe, I do like Apache Tribe obverse three, but obverse one does have the motion that I continue to look for in medals and coins and I love the way the rifle goes outside and in front of the frame. Adding a little bit of depth that makes the whole thing worthwhile. And I am going to go with the Tribe's two on White Mountain and Tonto Apache. 58 But, I did want to address reverse number three Tonto Apache Tribe. That is the preference of the Tribe. Am I correct, Gary? Chair Marks: I believe so. Member Bugeja: Yes, and I think -- is Betty or April -Ms. Stafford: Which one -- Michael, can you say that again? Member Bugeja: First of all, I'm looking -Ms. Stafford: Which -Member Bugeja: --- looking at the reverse number three which was my preference for symbolic reason. Can you tell me once again the iconography of the cross symbol? Ms. Stafford: Sure. In the remarks, it says that the cross is in this case a representation of a star. It bears four feathers, a streak of stylized lightning as depicted in Apache art, and four streamers. Member Bugeja: Yes, that's fine. That's what I thought. You know, I'm very sensitive to -- as the Committee knows, to the meanings of symbols and I like the World War II going across it that way as it removes it from the Christian symbol of a cross. Now, that might be a very minor thing, but that's why I'm going to go with reverse number three. So, those are my choices, Gary, and I'm done. Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. Michael Moran. Member Moran: I really think I'm going to cede to Heidi. She's got one issue she's brought up on the White Mountain Apache. I will note that when you look at the Tribal submittals on their choices the White Mountain Apache's probably the one that lacks really conviction in their choice. So, with that, I'll turn it over to Heidi. 59 Member Wastweet: If we could go ahead and pull those up. So, obverse number one is the Tribal preference and I'm going to go ahead and side with that, but let's look at number three the CFA preference and some other members have indicated that they like this, too. I have a problem with this design for two reasons. I do like the device in the background. That's very creative and I like that and I wish we could use that, but the guy's right leg, I think should be visible. It's completely missing and the left leg while it's visible, it's very awkward and stiff and doesn't look natural to me and I think that's a bigger problem than the benefit of the device in the background. Then I also want to make a note about the Tonto Apache obverse one. I like this design. I'm going to support it, but I feel that the receiver is too small. Has this been discussed? Has anyone made note of that? That's all I have. Chair Marks: Michael, were you done? Member Moran: Yes. Chair Marks: Okay. We'll go to Michael Olson. Member Olson: All right. Pretty much sticking with the Tribe preferences on all of these. Again, a good bunch of work that has been presented to us and maybe some of these designs we could see again. On the Ponca Tribe, I had some comments on the other designs, but since that's not the Tribe preference, we'll skip that. There's one choice for the reverse. Tonto Apache, going with the Tribal preferences there. I do agree that the World War II across does somewhat conflict with the design. Could be persuaded either way. I don't have a strong feeling 60 either way, but it does seem to be a bit odd. On White Mountain, I'm going with the Tribe preference. That's it. Chair Marks: Thank you, Mike. I'm pretty much going with the Tribe preferences with a couple of comments. First on the Tonto Apache reverse, I'll support number three, but I share Donald's and other concern about the way World War II is shown there. So, I'm going to give equal support to reverse one and try to -- as far as I'm concerned, I'd like to have the Tribe be in a position where they could change their mind about that. So, I guess my solution to that is to vote equally for number one to show support for that from the Committee. And then on White Mountain, I'm going to support the Tribe's recommendation on the obverse for design number one and just a comment on the CFA's choice. Similar to Heidi, when I looked at the figure I looked at that left leg and something about it just doesn't look natural to me. I don't know if it's not quite in the right proportion or it's bent a little wrong. I'm not sure, but it just looks a little awkward to me. So, I truly hope in the interest of what the Tribe wants that we wouldn't go with a design that looks like that and instead go for their preference for number one. Mr. Everhart: Gary. Chair Marks: That's the conclusion. Mr. Everhart: I just wanted to add something on that leg there. I think what's throwing me off on it is it looks like the pants are skin tight. I think they should be more -- they should be looser and show more drapery action in them and I think that would clear it up because it looks like the right size to me. So, that's all I'm seeing on that. If the pants would 61 be looser -Chair Marks: It does look like the tight jeans you see around these days. Doesn't it? Mr. Everhart: Yes, I think that, you know, they're real tight. Chair Marks: Yes. Okay. Maybe that's it. Maybe that's it. Okay. Member Wastweet: Don, what about the right leg? Chair Marks: Maybe the uniform people gave him the wrong size or something. Member Wastweet: What about the right leg? It's missing. Mr. Everhart: Yes, I assume that the artist is -- if they posed a model, that the right leg, the lower part of the leg was going straight back, but in a medal, I think you need to see it more in two dimensional. I would show part of the foot coming out to the left a little bit. Chair Marks: Yes. Mr. Everhart: Just to clarify. Chair Marks: Yes. And with those comments, I'll just hope that one, design one, prevails. So, with those comments, I'll go to Erik if he's prepared. Member Jansen: Thank you. I don't have a lot to add to the subjective comments. I would say the following. Relative to solicitation of artist inputs, I've noticed on a lot of these drawings the artists have done a fair job of not using gray-scaling quite so much and where they have intended I think for texturing, they've kind of used texturing. Which thank you to April and everybody on your team when you do brief or send the specs to the artists. 62 Now, I see the Ponca obverses are up and in this case, I do see gray-scaling which I think I'm echoing comments that might have been made by a member or two yesterday. That the gray-scaling kind of makes our work harder in the sense that it isn't easily translatable, that is reliably translatable into the sculpting success. So, I might just reiterate please pass through to the artist to resist the urge to gray-scale and if they're going to give us some clues to that regard use texturing in their renderings. Thank you. Chair Marks: Thank you, Erik. Jeanne. Member Stevens-Sollman: Hello. I'm going to go with the Tribal choices. I have nothing really to add except on the Tonto Apache Tribe. It bothers me to see World War II going across that symbol and I wish we knew why it was preferred. I'm not sure if it means World War II had a division within the Tribe or not and that's what that tells me. That the Tribe was dispersed or unsettled and so, I do go with reverse number one. And that's all. Thank you. Chair Marks: Thank you, Jeanne. Mike Ross. Member Ross: And on White Mountain obverse three, my only comment is when I first -- White Mountain obverse three. White Mountain obverse three. White Mountain obverse three. The one the CFA wants. My initial reaction upon seeing it was that the guy in the background had heard what was being translated and he said I am out of here and that was -- I'm going to go with the Tribe's choice. Member Stevens-Sollman: comment? Is that an educational 63 Member Ross: Yes. Yes, just when I first looked at it, I was just thinking he's taking off. Chair Marks: Are you done? Member Ross: I'm done. Chair Marks: Okay. And we are done with that discussion unless there's any quick follow-ups. All right. Ms. Stafford: Mr. Chairman, if I could just quickly add. Given all of the comments and inquiries regarding the Tonto Apache Tribe's preference of reverse three, we absolutely will go back to them and seek that clarity and really ask a specific question regarding this. We'll pass on those comments for sure. And also, just in general, both yesterday and today, the Committee has made some really important comments we feel the artists across all of the programs need to hear. So, we will be sure that we send them directly a PDF of the transcript and point out. Ask them to read the entire thing, but also point out specific sections that we feel can be very helpful. So, both the compliments about the designs as well as the comments that will further their future work. So. Chair Marks: Great. Great. Thank you. Sir. Mr. Talas: I have a question just for educational purposes. You're talking about the gray-scaling or whatever you call that. Can you kind of -- shading. Can you kind of tell us what that's about so we can kind of tell our Committee when we return what this is all about, too? Because I know when I told them that these are just like rough draft designs and they'll be more in detail when the medal gets struck. So, I just wanted a little bit more on this gray detailing. 64 Member Jansen: Yes. Thank you. My comments were really directed at the Mint staff and not you in particular. To your question, however, it's difficult to translate a gray-shaded design into sculpture directly. It's very challenging and it tends to distract the eyes of, I think, a number of the artists here who maybe are artists, but not sculptors and so, it's a confusion factor. That if we can avoid it at the artistic description at the initial points, it kind of clarifies the design as it moves through the process and we don't get lost or confused or disappointed in the end. That's all. Chair Marks: Yes. Member Jansen: comment. So, it's really a Mint staff Chair Marks: And I would add to that, Erik, that these medals are going to be produced in gold, silver and bronze. So, they're not produced in black and white. So, when you see some of the darker shading, it tends to maybe mislead what the medal might look like because our gold medal's going to be all gold. You're not going to necessarily have a dark portion of gold somewhere and a lighter portion of gold some place else. It's just going to be the surface of the medal if that makes sense. Member Wastweet: If I can add an example. As an example of how gray-scale can be misleading in a coin design, if you had two characters on the coin where one was blond and another brunette and if the artist is using shading to indicate the brunette hair, it's obviously not going to be something that's visible in the sculpture because we won't have that shading difference and sometimes it can be misleading to the eye in the designs. Chair Marks: Okay. If the members would go ahead and complete their scoring sheets for those 65 last three medals, pass those into Erik and he will do the tally. Meanwhile, I want to report to the Committee the results of the first three medals that were discussed. The first one is the Acoma Tribe. The obverse number one -- for the record, I'll say that the total possible vote here, the highest vote you could receive with ten members participating is 30. So, obverse one received 28. So, a very high score. Obverse two received five. So, obverse one will be the Committee's recommendation. On the reverse, reverse one received two points. Reverse -- no, I'm sorry. Reverse one received two. Reverse two received one and reverse three received a perfect score of 30 and that is our recommended design. Going on to the Hopi Tribe, obverse one received one. Obverse two three. Obverse three received 29 and will be the recommended design. Four received ten and designs five through seven each received a vote. One. Going to the reverse, reverse number one received 28 of the 30 votes and will be our recommended design. Reverse two received four. Reverse three received seven. On the Oneida Nation, obverse one received zero. Obverse two received two. Obverse three received a perfect score of 30 and will be our recommended design. Obverse four received three. Obverse five received zero. Going to the reverse, reverse number one received again a perfect score of 30 and will be our recommended design. Reverse two received seven. Reverse three received nine. So, that completes the first three. I believe that there may be some motions to follow those up and 66 if so -- Erik has made some notes as the discussion was going on. The first one was on Oneida reverse one as adopted as CCAC recommendation and remove the oval from the lower half that presently encloses the two footprints and turtle at lower half of tree. Is that a motion we'd like to make? Member Uram: So moved. Member Stevens-Sollman: Second. Member Wastweet: I'd like to offer an alterative. Chair Marks: Pardon me. Member Wastweet: I'll comment. Chair Marks: Okay. It's been moved and seconded. Is there discussion? Heidi. Member Wastweet: I would propose that we modify it to be a little more open instead of so distinctly directed and just give them free rein to work together in choosing the best version of this design. Member Uram: I'm fine with that and as a matter of fact, I think that's what Don and I -- that's what we talked about during the discussion. Chair Marks: Okay. So, the motion would be to recommend that Mint staff work with the Tribal representatives to resolve the issue of the oval which appears on the lower portion of the design. Is that what we're after? Jeanne, you were the second. that change? Do you agree with Member Stevens-Sollman: Yes, I agree with it. Chair Marks: Okay. Okay. So, if there's no further discussion, I'll call the question. All those in favor please raise your hand. 67 (Show of hands.) Member Bugeja: Aye. Chair Marks: Michael votes aye. That means it's a unanimous vote and the motion carries. Next note I have in front of me. To afford Mint design staff freedom of artistic license to modify any and all selective designs to accommodate review design changes from Department of Defense for historical accuracy. Hopi Tribal Authority to make facial features on obverse to, I'm sorry, best reflect Native Nation demographic appearance. So, do I have a taker for this motion? Mr. Weinman: Actually, before that motion, can we have a clarification on the motion regarding the Oneida reverse one? Is the latitude not just with the oval, but also regarding Act of Congress? Chair Marks: Did you have that some place else? I think that's here. Oneida Act of Congress. Okay. I'll state this. There were several changes recommended and they're spread across notes here that I'm going to be going through. I'd suggest that maybe we work through these notes and at the end, if we believe that there's been something missed, let's circle back and address it. But, I think maybe if we bear this out, most if not all will be covered. So, on this issue of artistic license to modify, is there a motion maker for that one? Member Wastweet: I don't think it's necessary. I think that as in the past we have given the artists some freedom to interpret these kinds of details. I don't think it requires an official motion. That's my opinion. Chair Marks: You know, that would rescue me, Heidi, right now from going through this very stilted 68 exercise. I mean I would appreciate either a sense of the Committee or a single motion rather than going through the tedious list here that -Member Wastweet: Yes, I think it sets a precedence if we get too detailed about these kinds of things. Chair Marks: Yes. Whatever the -- I don't know. Does the Committee feel like we need individual motions on all these or would a single all encompassing motion suffice or perhaps does the discussion here fully express our position and we understand that the staff gets it and we're going to be happy -Member Jansen: I only put it out there because in the past we've generally been able to get the inputs from the Department of Defense kind of consistent with this review and the fact that I had -- I was aware of kind of a number of instances where this gun stock's really wrong and that aim is really wrong and they got the Korean version of this rifle in that drawing and World War I version of that helmet in that drawing. It's almost as though there's this scatter-shot vulnerability of any and all of these designs to be tweaked around and I just don't want the design staff to be put in a box on this. Chair Marks: You know what? I think the nature of our discussion here clarifies that. I would suggest, and this is my hope, that the Committee can leave today feeling like that we've fully expressed ourselves on the record. Our staff is highly intelligent. They understand some of the comments or all of the comments we've made and they're going to continue to work with the tribes and other agencies as necessary to make sure that these medals are indeed what they need to be. 69 Are we all satisfied with that understanding? Member Scarinci: Mr. Chairman, I agree -Member Bugeja: Yes, Gary, I am. Member Scarinci: --- with that because these are medals not coins. If they were coins, I would say nay, let's give some more -- be more specific. But, they've got enough to do dealing with all of the various tribes and all of the various issues. I don't think we need to cloud that water. Chair Marks: I agree and I see heads nodding and so, that's the direction we're going to go. Just give Erik and I a moment here and we'll see how quickly we can adjourn. We need to -- I need to check in and see where we are with the score. Well, I would even say that the issue of the airplane on -- which one was that? Yes, does the Committee feel like we need a motion on the airplane or I think that's part of what we just discussed. It's understood that if an airplane needs to be added, it's going to be added. Okay. And now, thank you for bringing that up, Mike, because that makes it very specific on the record that that's the intent of the Committee. So, just give me just one moment of silence here and we'll -- Erik and I will see what we can do to get us out of here. Okay. Okay. Ponca Tribe, we have the results for that. Obverse one received two. Obverse two received four. Obverse three received three and obverse four received 29 of the possible thirty and is our recommended design and surprise, the single reverse design received a perfect score of 30. So, I think indeed that will be our recommended design. So, give me just another moment here. On the Tonto Apache Tribe, it's obvious to us, 70 although we don't have final totals, the totals that are here on obverse number one -- well, we do have a total there. It appears we're going to have 30 points for that one. Perfect score and then on the reverse -- okay. We're going to recess for five minutes. Let's make it five minutes because I think some of us need to get out of here for travel. Thank you. (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the record at 11:28 a.m. and resumed at 11:33 a.m.) Chair Marks: I want to bring the meeting back into session and I'll note for the record that with Michael Bugeja on the phone we have a quorum of seven in the room right now. It's my understanding that some of our travel representatives wanted to have some final comments and so, first, I'll go to April to introduce those individuals. Ms. Stafford: Yes, Ms. Loretta Matoxen. So, from the Oneida Nation. Ms. Metoxen: Mr. Chair, I don't think it's anything too profound, but I just wanted to thank the Committee for your diligent work on this project and for your patience and for your appreciation for tribal cultures because I think this is special. We know about the Navajo Code Talker coin which preceded this, but here we are with the rest of the Code Talkers and we appreciate your work on this. Thank you language.) very much. (Speaking in Native Chair Marks: Thank you. Thank you very much. Then we have comments from another representative. Mr. Esteban: (Speaking in Native language.) In my language, that means thank you and may God be with you because you've done a wonderful job for 71 our tribes. Thank you very much. Chair Marks: Thank you. Mr. Talas: (Speaking in Native language.) In other words, thank you to the Committee Members for doing this diligent work, hard work and very difficult work for Committee Members to vote on these medals for all the Code Talkers here and have safe journeys. Have a happy life, a safe life and a fruitful life and thank you again for this honor for being here. (Speaking in Native language.) Chair Marks: Thank you. Okay. We have some final results for the Tonto Apache Tribe. We look at obverse number one with 29 of a possible 30 votes. It is our recommended design. Obverse two received zero. Obverse three received two. I think this is the most interesting result on the reverse today of the scoring. We have a situation where -- first of all, I'll start off with reverse two. Got one vote. Okay. So, we'll look at one and three now. One received 23 and three received 22. Now, at first, we thought we had a tie, but on a recount, we actually have number one ahead by one vote. By our rules, that would mean our recommendation would be 23. So, I just wanted to be on the record clarifying that that is the case. There have been times when it's been this close that the Committee's wanted to do otherwise. I guess I'm happy with this result because it shows strong support for either and I think that's kind of where the Committee wanted to go given the concern for the World War II band that was across the bottom of design three. So, your silence will indicate that you want to stand with the result of the formal recommendation going to one. 72 If you wish otherwise, speak now. Okay. Then that decision will stand. Going on to the White Mountain Apache Tribe, obverse one received 28 of the 30 votes and will be the recommended design. Obverse two received one and obverse three received five. And we had a single reverse design for White Mountain. So, it's in question which design -- no, it's not. Actually, it received a perfect score of 30. So, with emphasis, reverse one will be our recommended design. Adjourn With those results, we have completed the business on our agenda. I want to thank everyone especially our guests and representatives from the Tribes for your travels here, for your very informative and helpful words. Helping us understand these medals and the symbology on them helped us make good decisions. Thank you very much. We wish you also safe travels back to your homes. I want to thank our staff for their diligent work and excellent work that they've been doing on our behalf and also for the great artwork that has been provided to us and evident over the last two days of our proceedings. With that, I just wish everyone Godspeed and safety in your return either to your workplace or to your homes. We are adjourned. (Whereupon, at 11:38 a.m., the meeting was adjourned.)