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1 United States Mint Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting Tuesday, July 23, 2013 The Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee met in the 2nd Floor Conference Room A at the United States Mint, 801 9th Street N.W., Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Gary Marks, Chair, presiding. 2 CCAC Members Present: Gary Marks, Chair Michael Bugeja Erik Jansen Michael Moran Michael Olson Michael Ross Donald Scarinci Jeanne Stevens-Sollman Thomas Uram Heidi Wastweet United States Mint Staff Present: Richard A. Peterson, Acting Director Steve Antonucci Betty Birdsong Don Everhart Bill Norton Leslie Schwager April Stafford Megan Sullivan Greg Weinman Also Present: Desiree Boykin, United Negro College Fund Dianne Robertson Braddock, Birmingham Civil 3 Rights Institute Katina Charles, United Negro College Fund Marcia Fairweather, United Negro College Fund Nicole Francis, Sewell’s Office Chief of Staff, Representative Lisa McNair, Birmingham Civil Rights Institute Ken Merifet, National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum Kimberly Patterson, United Negro College Fund Stephen Rosa, United Negro College Fund Robert Rucker, United Negro College Fund Denise Scott, United Negro College Fund The Honorable Terri Sewell, Representative, 7th Congressional District of Alabama Richard Shropshire, United Negro College Fund Ahmad Ward, Birmingham Civil Rights Institute 4 Contents Welcome/Call to Order 5 Previous Mtg. Letter & Minutes 5 2014 Civil Rights Act of 1964 Review 5 2014 Baseball Hall of Fame Review 51 FY13 Annual Report 77 16th Street Baptist Church Review 92 2014 Native American Coin Review 132 5 Proceedings (9:15 a.m.) Welcome/Call to Order Chair Marks: Good morning, everyone. Calling the Tuesday, July 23, 2013 meeting of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee to order. Previous Mtg. Letter & Minutes The first item on our agenda is the discussion and approval of the letter and minutes from our previous meeting. I trust that the members have had an opportunity to review those documents, and if you are prepared, I would accept a motion to approve both of those items. Participant: So moved. Participant: Second. Chair Marks: It's been moved and seconded to accept the letter and minutes from the June 25, 2013 meeting. Is there any discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor, please say aye. (A chorus of ayes.) Chair Marks: Opposed? Participant: Aye. 2014 Civil Rights Act of 1964 Review Chair Marks: Motion carries. The next item on the agenda would be the review of Candidate Designs for the 2014 Civil Rights Act of 1964 Commemorative Coin Program, and we have both April Stafford and Betty Birdsong bringing our staff report. Good morning. Ms. Stafford: Good morning. Thank you very much. Please let me know if the Committee is unable to hear or the Court Reporter. 6 So, background. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 Commemorative Coin Act, Public Law 110-451 requires the Secretary of the Treasury to mint and issue one dollar silver coins in commemoration of the semi-centennial of the enactment of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Of course, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 greatly expanded civil rights protections by outlawing racial discrimination and segregation in public places and places of public accommodation in federally funded programs and employment. The Act also encouraged de-segregation in public schools and has served as a model for subsequent anti-discrimination laws. Equality and education was one of the cornerstones of the Civil Rights Movement. Surcharges received by the Secretary of the Treasury from the sale of coins issued under this Act are authorized to be paid to the United Negro College Fund to carry out of the purposes of the Fund, which includes providing scholarships and internships to minority students and operating funds and technology enhancement services to its 39 member historically black colleges and universities. Since 1944, the United Negro College Fund, or UNCF, has raised more than $3.6 billion for scholarships and has helped more than 400,000 African American students earn college degrees. Representatives from the UNCF are with us here today, and I'd like to introduce Desiree Boykin, General Counsel and Assistant Secretary. Would you like to give some remarks? Ms. Boykin: Good morning, and thank you for the opportunity to be here. I am here with several of my colleagues from UNCF. We have Denise Scott, Robert Rucker, Stephen Rosa, Richard Shropshire, Marcia Fairweather, Kimberly Patterson and Katina Charles here with us today. We might expect a few 7 more. Once again, thank you on behalf of the entire UNCF family. We are happy to be here and we think we are privileged to be connected with the 1964 Civil Rights Act Commemorative Coin, and we hope to have some engaging dialogue as you look at the designs for the coin. Ms. Stafford: Thank you. We really appreciate you being here with us today. The designs are to be emblematic of the enactment of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and its contribution to civil rights in America. Required inscriptions for the obverse include liberty, In God We Trust and 2014. For the reverse, United States of America, E Pluribus Unum and one dollar or dollar sign one. Prior to going onto the obverse candidate designs, I would like to note for the Committee that there were two recommended artists’ pairings. We spoke about that earlier today. So, I wanted to call your attention to it. After culling of the portfolio, there were two specifically. So, the first pairing was obverse one and obverse -- reverse one. So, one and one, obverse one, reverse one, and the second paring for this program is obverse 15 and reverse eight. So, I'll make mention of that as we go through. So, first for the obverse designs, obverse one features a girl clutching her schoolbooks and a young man singing and clapping. This dual depiction symbolizes the challenge of desegregating schools and demonstrates how freedom songs generated a greater sense of unity, which helped to galvanize the modern Civil Rights Movement. Again, this obverse was recommended to be paired 8 by the artist with reverse one. Obverse two features three figures representing the Freedom Rides through the South, de-segregation and the Civil Rights Movement songs of unity. The first young man wears a Freedom Now corps button often worn by Freedom Movement organizations’ participants. The young lady is making her first steps into a recently de-segregated school, and the third young man is actively engaged in a freedom song and was -- which was often used at events held in support of the Movement. Obverse three depicts a close-up view of participants holding various signs proclaiming their rights during the 1963 March on Washington. Behind them is a banner with Civil Rights Act of 1964, written in uneven lines to symbolize that rights were not equal among all and also, the challenge of attaining equal rights. In the background is the Washington Monument where the March was held. Obverses four and five depict Civil Rights marchers with cast shadows, symbolizes the, quote, dark and desolate valley of segregation, which was a phrase from Martin Luther King, Junior's I Have a Dream speech. The design is emblematic of students who peacefully participated in sit-ins, public accommodation and transportation marches and other events that led up to the Civil Rights Movement. The cast shadows are used to symbolize how many Americans lived under a shadow of oppression, while the phrase We Shall Overcome is inscribed at the top of the design, as it is one of the anthems used at events linked to the Civil Rights Movement. Obverse six depicts three students marching with protest signs. The signs read Justice, Equality and Freedom. 9 Students who demonstrated for Civil Rights were important contributors in generating a new level of activism for the Movement. Observe seven features peaceful protesters of various races and backgrounds coming together in their fight to reshape and redefine American society. The design is emblematic of events held with the goal of non-violent social change for equality. A large number of participants can be seen trailing off into the distance and the inscription 1964 is included in the design to further commemorate the semi-centennial of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Obverse eight depicts Americans of various races standing together behind a stylized image of an American flag to symbolically indicate one nation unified by equal rights. The inscription We Cannot Walk Alone is a partial quote from Martin Luther King, Junior's I Have a Dream speech, which in its entirety states, we cannot walk alone and as we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall always march ahead. We cannot turn back. Obverse nine features a rendition of the Statue of Liberty with ethnic features to symbolize the more diverse demographics of the United States and to indicate liberty applies to all races. An additional inscription Justice for All was used by the artist as a strong reference to the theme of Civil Rights. Observe 10 depicts the March on Washington facing east inside a silhouette of the Liberty Bell with vibrating bands. The Liberty Bell is a national symbol of freedom and is inscribed with the words, proclaim liberty through all the land to all the inhabitants thereof. 10 The rays beyond the view of the Washington Monument represent the dawn of the bright day of justice as quoted by Dr. King in his I Have a Dream speech. The design inscription let freedom ring is quoted repeatedly in the I Have a Dream speech and is Dr. King's concluding cry for all people of the nation to be equal. This is further symbolized by the vibrating bands around the bell. The other inscription, 1964, commemorates the year the Civil Rights Act was signed into law. Obverse 11, the hands reaching out transform this design from one of separation into a representation of unity and equality and inscription Civil Rights Act of 1964 is included. Obverse 12 depicts an overview of the National Mall during the 1963 March on Washington. The foreground features a close-up view of participants standing in unity with linked arms while singing. The design contains the inscription I have a dream that one day, a phrase from the I Have a Dream speech. Obverses 13 and 14 feature an overview of the National Mall during the 1963 March on Washington. The foreground features a close-up view of participants standing in unity and linking arms while singing. The artist added a child's eyes to indicate that events such as the 1963 March on Washington, have contributed to greater freedoms for subsequent generations. Additional inscriptions include the fierce urgency of now and I have a dream that one day, both excerpts from the I Have a Dream speech. So, here is obverse 13 and 14. 11 Obverse 15 features three people holding hands at a civil rights march. It is symbolic of all marches that help galvanize the Civil Rights Movement. The man holds a sign that reads, we shall overcome. This is the UNCF's preference because it represents young people driving social change, it appeals to a younger audience and is powerful, but nonthreatening. The holding of hands shows solidarity underscored by the iconic sign we shall overcome. I would note also that this is the CFA's preferred obverse design, as well. There were suggestions by both groups that this design be modified slightly to give consideration to including more diversity among the figures depicted. That concludes the obverse designs. Member Scarinci: April? Ms. Stafford: Yes. Member Scarinci: I'm sorry, 15 is the CFA and the Ms. Stafford: And the UNCF, the United Negro College Fund's preference. Member Scarinci: Okay. Ms. Stafford: So, both the liaison and the CFA. The reverse designs. Reverse one features the torch of the Statue of Liberty with a banner reading Civil Rights Act of 1964. An additional inscription reads Signed Into Law July 2, 1964. Reverse two depicts three flames inter-twined to symbolize freedom of education, freedom to vote and the freedom to control one's own destiny. 12 It was developed based on the following quote by Martin Luther King, Junior. They get the fire hose. They fail to realize that water can only put out physical fire, but water can never drown the fire of freedom. Additional inscriptions read, Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Signed into Law July 2, 1964. Reverse three features the scales of justice, which symbolize that rights and freedoms should be equal among all. An additional inscription reads Civil Rights Act of 1964. Reverse four, the hands reaching out transform this design from one of separation into a representation of unity and equality. An additional inscription reads Civil Rights Act of 1964. Reverse five, this design depicts the balanced scales of justice to symbolize that all rights and freedoms should be equal. An inscription simply reads Equality. Reverse six, this design shows a bright day of justice rising over the United States Capitol. The Capitol symbolizes the legislative process while the sun is symbolic of the day of justice as referenced in Dr. King's I Have a Dream speech. An additional inscription reads The Civil Rights Act of 1964. Reverse seven depicts a stylized eagle holding the scales of justice. The eagle, according to the artist, being symbolic of a peaceful movement, while the scales are symbolic of equal rights. Reverse eight, this design features a graduation cap and tassel. It represents the initial thrust of the Civil Rights Movement when the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People challenged the separate but equal doctrine with Brown versus Board of Education. 13 All elements and inscriptions in the design are symbolic of either the Civil Rights Act or quotes from Dr. King's I Have a Dream speech. The graduation cap lying on the table of brotherhood is representative of the quest to gain equal education opportunities for all. The inscription Freedom, Equality, Justice is used to indicate the cornerstone of the Civil Rights Act, that all should be treated equal regardless of race, color, religion or national origin. The use of Civil Rights Act of 1964 commemorates the signing of the Act and the inscription For All God's Children is referenced in Dr. King's I Have a Dream speech. This is the UNCF's preference, as it symbolizes the evolving need for higher education. It is also emblematic of everyone from high school graduates to post-graduates. I'll remind you that this design was recommended by the artist to pair with obverse -- with the preferred obverse, and this was also the CFA's preferred reverse design, with a recommendation by them to remove some of the boxes around the text. Reverse nine symbolizes the signing of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. In the background is a solar disk used by the artist to allude to the emerging enlightenment. The motif is also reminiscent of the dome of the Capitol. The pen is symbolic of the signing of the law and equal education. The hand to the right of the design is representative of the government. It is circumscribed by the rim of the circle to represent the legal constraints before the Act was signed into law. The one to the left represents all those striving for equality, breaking the circle to symbolize freedom codified by the Act. Additional inscriptions include Civil Rights Act of 14 1964 and we shall be free at last. Reverse 10, the design is symbolic of a quote from Dr. King's I Have a Dream speech, which is, quote, until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream. It shows water rolling down a stream and over many rocks. The same quote is also inscribed on the design. Those are all the obverse and reverse designs. Again, I just remind the Committee the recommended artistic pairings, obverse one and reverse one and as it happens, obverse 15 and reverse eight, which is the UNCF's preference, as well as the CFA. Chair Marks: Thank you, April. I will ask the Committee if there are any questions of a technical nature. These would not bear on your design preferences, but any questions that we should get out of the way before we start our discussion about the designs. Member Bugeja: Gary, this is Michael Bugeja. I have a technical question on some of these designs. I was wondering if we could ever go incuse to separate conflict between devices. Chair Marks: I am not sure we are understanding your question, Michael. Member Bugeja: Okay, on some of the designs, we have text, and I understand text, but the text falls over artwork, and my concern is the text and the artwork will clash on otherwise fine designs. So, my question is, to separate devices that are overlaid on each other, is it possible to go incuse? Chair Marks: You're talking about incused lettering, I believe. Member Bugeja: Well, the lettering or the device. Chair Marks: Okay. 15 Member Bugeja: One or the other, just to -Chair Marks: If it's possible -Member Bugeja: Just to bring out the kind of depth, and some of these designs have depth of field that is very alluring, and if we could go incuse on some of the devices, it would separate a kind of conflict for low relief, and thereby, you know, if we can't separate them out, I'm likely to say this design is too busy at this point. So, what I'm trying to find out is, is it possible to use the minting technology to separate devices that are overlaid on each other? Mr. Everhart: Gary, I'd like to add one thing. When you incuse lettering over a highly undulated surface, it will make the lettering look irregular. I wouldn't recommend that. I would raise that, if it's one of the overlay -- surface that has a lot of terrain. Chair Marks: Okay, did you hear that, Michael? Member Bugeja: Yes, I did. Actually, technical questions -- I mean, responses like that really have no bearing until we discuss a particular design. For instance, there are some white and black designs that interlay on each other, and there might be a conflict of those devices, where particularly in proof, if one was incuse and one was not, then we would have a very attractive coin. But if it was flat with no relief, that could be a problem. Chair Marks: Okay, I would suggest, Michael, that as we go through the designs, in the case that you're articulating -Member Bugeja: Sure. Chair Marks: -- that as those sorts of issues need 16 to be addressed, let's do it on an as -- on design basis. Member Bugeja: Okay. Chair Marks: Okay, any other technical questions? Heidi? Member Wastweet: April, you said that on obverse 15 the CFA recommended diversity and characters. Can you speak just a little more about that, what they said? Ms. Stafford: Well, actually, suggested by the UNCF. that was first Member Wastweet: Okay. Ms. Stafford: So, if it's acceptable I'd like to ask Desiree Boykin to speak to that. Member Wastweet: Great. Ms. Boykin: Thank you again for the opportunity. Yes, when we were reviewing designs, we were looking for a student reference, a strong civil rights image, a then and now reference and a powerful message. So, the young people on the coin are moving forward. They are looking ahead. They are focused and they are determined. They are holding hands in solidarity, but they represent the many that sacrificed, worked together and fought for social change. So, because they represent all of us, we've asked for more diversity in our images, so that they truly represent all of the people that sacrificed for civil rights. Member Wastweet: Are you speaking of diversity of age or -Ms. Boykin: Not so much age -- 17 Member Wastweet: -- nationality? Ms. Boykin: Race, ethnicity, diversity. Member Wastweet: Okay, thank you. Chair Marks: Others with questions? Okay, if not, then what I want to do, in light of the fact that we have 15 obverse designs and 10 reverse designs, with 25 designs, that's a lot to -- of material to look at. It has been the Committee's practice in similar situations, that we go through an initial review where we have a quick indication from the Committee on each design, whether it's something that we feel that we want to give further consideration to, or whether or not our time could be better spent focusing on fewer numbers of designs. So, as I go through this process, I am going to hold up each of the designs and if any Committee member indicates an interest in that design, then I will put it in a stack of those that we'll consider further, and if I hear no interest, then we're going to set those aside and know that we are going to focus on the others. So, we will go ahead and -Member Bugeja: Gary, I won't be able to see what you hold up, so, could you read the CO number? Chair Marks: I will do that, Michael, and if you -Member Bugeja: Thank you. Chair Marks: If you could indicate your interest, and if I don't hear from you, I will consider that you're not interested. Member Bugeja: Very well. Chair Marks: designs. Okay, so, starting with the obverse 18 Obverse design number one. I'm not hearing any -okay, I'm setting that one aside. Obverse number two. one. Not hearing interest in that Obverse number three. Okay, we have a hand up for that. We'll set that in the further-review pile. Obverse number four. Okay, we'll review that one further. Obverse number five, obverse five. I'm setting that one aside. Member Scarinci: Throw that in. If we're going to look at four, let's look at five, too. Chair Marks: consideration. Okay, we'll put that for further Number six, obverse six. Member Bugeja: Yes. Chair Marks: Yes? Member Bugeja: Yes. Chair Marks: aside. Obverse seven. Setting that one Obverse eight. Member Bugeja: Yes. Chair Marks: Yes. Obverse nine. Setting that one aside. Obverse 10. Member Bugeja: Yes. Chair Marks: obverse 11. Obverse eight -- no, I'm sorry, 11, Participant: Yes. Chair Marks: Yes, obverse 12. Setting 12 aside. Thirteen. Setting that one aside. 19 Fourteen. Fifteen, and with deference to other groups, set that one aside for further consideration. That takes us to the reverse designs. number one. Did I hear? Reverse Participant: Yes. Chair Marks: Okay, that's a yes. Reverse number two. Participant: Yes. Chair Marks: Reverse number three. Setting aside. Four. Reverse five. Setting that one aside. Reverse six. Setting aside. Reverse seven. I want to make a comment on seven. So, I am going to include it, but I'm not going to favor it, but I want to talk about it briefly. Seven is in. Reverse eight. Yes. reverse 10. Yes, okay. Reverse nine. Yes, and So, for review, for the record, we are considering further three, four, five, six, eight, 10, 11 and 15 on the obverse designs. We are giving further consideration to reverse designs one, two, four, seven, eight, nine and 10. Okay, great. So, with that, we will go on to our discussions, and I'm going to lead off on the discussion, and then I'm going to go to Mike Olson after, and then down the line, and we'll circle around. To start off my comments, I want to go back and look briefly at the legislation. April mentioned this in her presentation, but I want to highlight it. When Congress passes laws like this that require us to review designs, for me, I look to the legislation 20 for guidance to specifically what it is that we're called to do. Sometimes we get designs that are well executed, have great symbolic meaning to them, and sometimes they hit the mark for what Congress has asked us to do, and sometimes they miss it, and I think we've got some of both in this program with the designs presented to us today. So, I wanted to look carefully at the design requirement in Section 4 of the public law, and it says that, the design of the coins minted under this Act shall be emblematic of the enactment of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and its contribution to civil rights in America. So, as I look through the designs that we're reviewing, for me, what I'm looking for are designs that do just that, that commemorate the Act itself and its contribution to the nation, and that contribution is something that could not have happened prior to its enactment. So, I'm looking for symbology and emblematic design that tells me a story about what the Act has done since its enactment. So, with that, I also want to focus a little bit on another objective of mine, and that is that whatever coin is ultimately produced, whatever silver dollar comes out of this process, I very much want it to be a beautiful work of art, just for the sake that it honors something very important in our nation's soul, something that is precious to all of us as Americans: our civil rights. It doesn't matter what your racial context is. This is something we all share and it's something that, therefore, should celebrate the progress we've made, recognizing that there is more work that needs to be done. But what we've been called to do here is to commemorate the contribution, the Act itself, and 21 its contribution through time, from 1964 to now, for this 50-year period. I want it to be beautiful, not only to honor the subject matter, but also because I know that this coin is going to be put up for sale and that a lot of people like myself are going to buy these, collectors, and collectors in effect vote on the success or failure of a coin. If you look historically through the commemorative programs, there are some programs that don't sell well and others that sell a tremendous amount, and those that sell a tremendous amount give great benefit financially to those organizations that are the beneficiaries. In this case, the United Negro College Fund is the beneficiary. I want sales to be extremely high. I want that organization to reap a lot of financial benefit, to help advance their cause. So, I want something that is beautiful, that will sell. So, I say all of this because I don't want anyone to take me out of context, because there are some designs here, while they're powerful and they have -- they have an important message, I think they miss the mark of what we are called to do here today. So, I will start off, for example, when I look at number three, which is one that we said that we want to look more at, this design is about the protest. This is about the protest. It's not about the Act and its contribution since. So, for me, I can't consider this one because I don't see it as what we're called to do in the law. Same with four. We're talking about protest here again. Five is protest. Six is protest. Eight, this one, I think more gets to the point, and 22 let me turn to the descriptive here that we have from the artist, and I will illustrate. I'm not going to speak in favor of this one, as one that I would like to see, but the artist tells us that this symbolically indicates one nation unified by equal rights. Okay, that is something that I think can be well seen in compliance with the Act. This one, I don't know if it's going to produce the beautiful coin that we might be interested in. I am concerned that while there is a mix of races here, that you have -- frankly, you have the white man who is higher than the others in this design. So, for that, I have difficulty with that design, quite frankly. Number 11 is interesting. I get the point of, they are trying to show racial unity and coming together with hands reaching for each other. Friends, I see this as hands missing each other. I think it's an interesting modern attempt -- design -- attempt at a modern design, but I see this, and I see hands missing each other. I think this is the wrong message, and if I can interpret it that way, others will too. With respect to those who have indicated their support of number 15, I can't support this one because to me, this is more about the protest than what we as a nation have attempted to do since 1964. The protest is important. Please don't misunderstand me. The protest -- without the protest, we wouldn't have had the Act, and we wouldn't have had any progress since then. It was the protest that brought us to that point. But it's not what we're called -- in my mind, looking at the legislation, that is not what we're called to do 23 here today. So, that takes me to number 10, which if you've noticed the progression, I skipped it. Number 10 is the Liberty Bell. This one, I love this one. I love this one because it -- too bad it doesn't show up here on the screen, but a key to this design, not only is it modern, therefore, I think it's going to sell well with collectors, because I think collectors are looking for modern, unique designs. This is an idea that I don't think we've -- the style, this approach to a design on a silver dollar, I don't think we've really seen this on an American silver dollar. But the reverberating bell to me, symbolically, I think that is a powerful message about the Act, that it's an Act that has truly made a difference and its impact is reverberating through time, and the words let freedom ring, the rays behind the throng of people. I like the throng of people by the reflecting pool. This would have been Martin Luther King's view from the Lincoln Memorial, and to me, that says that this was an Act that was for all people for our civil Rights, to advance us as a nation, to unify us, and then as the artist says, the rays beyond the view of the Washington Monument represent the dawn of the bright day of justice as quoted by Dr. King during his I Have a Dream speech. Thank you very much, Mr. or Mrs. Artist who came up with this design. I think it was during the discussion about themes where, when I was going through Dr. King's speech, I brought out some of those symbolic phrases that Dr. King used, and this was one of them, this bright day of justice. I think they've captured this very well. This is a beautiful design. This is one that I think would sell very well. Therefore, it would benefit the organization financially very well. 24 I think it's going to be a beautiful coin. It's going to be unique, and so, I am going to be putting my support behind that obverse design. Now, going to the reverse designs. You picked number one as something we wanted to look at further. I think this is great artwork. I think it looks like the mercury dime. I have concern that we would do something so traditional, especially if we're picking a more modern look for the obverse. I compliment the artist for this. This is a great classic interpretation of American coinage. I am not sure it's appropriate for its use in this program. Number four was one that we saw first, the basic design as an obverse. It's been interpreted as a reverse here. Again, to me these are hands that are missing each other. I think it's the wrong message. Number seven, I asked for this one to be further considered only for the fact that I wanted us to compliment the artist on this eagle. I love this eagle. I hope we can use it in a future program. I don't see its applicability to this program, and when I read the artist statement about it, the statement missed me too. So, I hope we can put this one aside. Maybe there is a future design about justice in a general sense, where I think this might be more applicable, but I wouldn't advocate that today. Let's see. This one, number eight, I surely get the significance of, educational aspect of this, a key to the advancement of all peoples. For me, this is -- this just doesn't have the pop for a coin, a coin that we want to be beautiful. 25 I am sure that there will be people who, if this were chosen, who would look at this and it might confuse them, that simply this is about education, when while it's a central issue here, it's not the main issue of civil rights. So, I don't -- more than anything, the art there just doesn't resonate with me. Number nine, I've said this before, folks, we get in a habit of looking at these big designs, like up here on this screen, even the ones on our eight and a half by 11 sheet in our book. We look at these designs and we think that is what it's going to look like. But it's this little one down here in the corner. That is what it's going to look like. I'm not sure what those hands -- when you look at the small size, what are they passing? I'm not sure I know that's a pen. It could be something else of more questionable nature. So, I would hope that we wouldn't pick this one, because I don't want to confuse -- I don't want to convey confusion in such -- with such an important coin. Number 10, I want to thank the artist for this one. I think this was another quote from Dr. King's -- I know it is a quote from his speech, that I kind of highlighted during our thematic discussion. Seeing it in a design now, I am not sure it translates well. So, that brings me back to number two, reverse number two, which I am going to speak in support of. One, it's a modern design. It has all the information, I think, presented very clearly, where if you looked at the obverse that I've chosen, the Liberty Bell, it doesn't have a lot of that information. 26 I think the proper place for that is on the reverse, and what I love is this flame, because it captures some of the high points of the Civil Rights Movement. The flame represents the freedom of education, freedom of vote, freedom to control one's destiny, and the artist quotes Dr. King with his quote, they get the fire hose, they fail to realize that water can only put out physical fire, but water can never drown the fire freedom. I love that statement. I think that if you pair this torch image, which is a quintessential American image of enlightenment, freedom, hope, we all know that as coin folks, and seeing it in a modern rendition is wonderful. I am thinking that with Steve Antonucci's ability to bring some shading to proofs, that this one is going to pop off and be a very stunning coin. I'm assuming that this outer band that we see here, showing us a little -- we should put number two up on the screen, please, showing a little darker. Am I interpreting correctly, that those would be incused letters around that band? Participant: No. Chair Marks: They would not be? Mr. Antonucci: They would be raised. Chair Marks: Pardon me? Mr. Antonucci: They would raise them. Chair Marks: Raised? Mr. Antonucci: Yes. Chair Marks: Is there any reason why we wouldn't incuse them, if the band could be raised, because then your letters would sparkle. Your letters would sparkle. 27 I think there is a -- one of the Olympic coins series from, I think it's 1996, the Atlanta Olympics, if you go back and look at some of those, there is some incused lettering with those. I would encourage us to approach it that way. I'd also -- if this were to be chosen, I would want to go back and look at the torch, there towards the bottom. I think it's a little small. Would like to see that a little bit bigger, bring a little more pop to it, so people understand that it's a flame coming from a torch. But other than that, I've spoken too long and I just want the Committee to understand and our guests to understand my perspective on all of this. I think these two designs really give honor and a dead-on hit to what the legislation has asked us to do, give honor to the subject matter and would produce a beautiful coin that would sell well -Member Bugeja: Gary? Chair Marks: -- and benefit -Member Bugeja: Gary, this is Michael. Would you mind if I -Chair Marks: Hold on. Hold on, Michael. Member Bugeja: -- go next because I had -Chair Marks: Michael? Michael? Member Bugeja: -- similar thoughts that you did. Chair Marks: Michael? please let me finish? I'm finishing. Could you Member Bugeja: I didn't hear that. Chair Marks: Okay, so, these are an obverse and reverse design that I think would sell very well and would be of great benefit to the recipient organization. Thank you. Michael Olson? 28 Member Bugeja: Okay, I'd ask you all to have patience, because the -- I have you on speaker phone, and sometimes, when you turn away from the microphone, I can't hear you. I didn't mean to interrupt you, Gary. Chair Marks: Okay. Member Bugeja: I just couldn't hear you. Chair Marks: That's fine. Member Bugeja: I want to actually echo many of the things that you said, which is why I wanted to go next, and I'll be -- I'll be briefer. You covered a lot that I had wanted to say. The obverse number 10 was my clear choice, because it's absolutely beautiful. The only concern I had about it is the typical heads/tails business, to be able to distinguish what is a head and what is a tail on a coin is important. It is a wonderful design, but that is precisely the design that I wanted to talk about if we could have a technical layering of an incuse maybe of one of those to highlight the depth of vision that we are looking at in that coin. There are actually three devices that stand out. There is the Mall. There is the let freedom ring and liberty part and In God We Trust, and if the 1964 Mall portion was incuse, particularly in proof, that would be quite an exciting design. The number 15, which is the favorite of the CFA, I wanted to say that, you know, I like it as a clear heads design. We would know that that is the heads, obverse of the coin. Part of my concern about that is, we've seen that before in the diversity issue. If we could go then to some of the reverses. I wanted to say that number two actually just jumps 29 out as a tremendous design. I fully enjoy and love that. I do want to mention in slightly a different way than Gary did, the number seven, because while the eagle is good, it's personified. Personified eagles come across poorly with some people. The eagle is an icon and as an icon, it should not be holding a pen. It should not be holding up justice. It nearly -- it actually detracts from the iconic nature of the device. In fact, if the -- to say it another way, if the scales were moved to the left and up and the eagle was there, the eagle would stand behind justice, not uphold it, and that is one of the things I wanted to mention. While it's an interesting design, please do not personify eagles. Other than that, I agree totally with what Gary said and particularly, reverse number two. That's all. Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. Michael Olson? Member Olson: Okay, I'll briefly discuss all of the designs that we are -- we've culled this down to, but then zero in on a couple. Number three, I completely agree with what has been said. The theme or the gist of the legislation and what I think needs to be conveyed are the results of the legislation, rather than what led up to it, and what led up to it was certainly important. But the protest scene, it just doesn't do it for me on a United States silver dollar. Number four and five, in my view, seem very simplistic and don't generate a lot of interest on my part. Number six, getting back to the same comments on the protest. 30 Let's see, the next one, number eight, I did have a little bit of interest in that because it did show some diversity. There is a lot of folks that had a -number eight, lot of folks played a part in getting that legislation put through, and the struggle for civil rights, and we see that here in this depiction. Number 10, I'll save that one for last. Go to 11. Again, agree completely with the comments that have already been made. Number 15, that one, I agree with the recipient organization, as well as other comments that have been made, that some diversity should be shown there, as well. Getting back to obverse number 10, which the minute I opened these up at home and started looking through, that one jumped out immediately and it's -- we've heard from two other members now, it's pretty much the same sentiment, that that one really captures your attention for a lot of good reasons that have already been discussed. That is an awesome design. What Michael Bugeja just talked about, with the different layering of those bell outlines, that would be very interesting. Imagine on a proof, if the reflecting pool was a mirrored group. Very beautiful coin, and it really, without drawing all kinds of pictures of people, it gets the message across in an allegorical manner, which we've been asking for for quite some time. That coin is a winner, and Gary mentioned it, I'll say it again, it benefits everyone when more coins are sold. There is certainly the surcharge, but I think that is minor in comparison to everyone that owns one of these coins is going to be a recipient of the message that you're trying to get across, and it does no one any good if they remain unsold or never minted. 31 So, the goal should be to try to get as many out as possible, and a lot of folks that may be on the fence as to whether or not to purchase one of these coins, if they see a very good design, and this one paired with the reverse, that I'll talk about in a minute with -- would make something that would make a lot of those fence-sitters pull out their wallet and buy this coin. So, I feel very strongly that number 10 should be the recommendation of the Committee, and I will add to the momentum for number 10. On to the reverses. We were to look at or discuss the first one, would be number one. I initially was drawn to that design. That does have some merit. However, I do agree that it is somewhat traditional and while it's a fine design, I think there is a better choice here. Number four is pretty much a rehash of the obverse, won't comment on that. Seven, agree completely with every comment that has been made. Leave the eagle alone. You know, we saw a design a while back where it looked like it was a pet eagle on another coin program. Very nice depiction of the eagle and maybe we can see some form of that later on, but for this purpose, I really don't get the message that is stated. Number eight, I certainly understand the sentiments there, as far as depicting the value of education, but I don't think it captures the entire message. It captures a portion of it. Number nine, agree with the comments that it's just too busy, too many things happening there and you really can't tell what is being passed from one hand to the other. Ten, I really had to look at number 10 very closely and read the description to understand that that is 32 supposed to be a brook with water rolling down it. I couldn't tell what that was, and I don't think it would translate well on a coin. That is just my opinion. Getting back to the final, and it would be the third commenter in a row. I'm going to have exactly the same comment as already has been said. Number two is a beautiful design. It takes Dr. King's statement, puts it onto metal. It certainly takes some investigation, but that is what these coins are all about. They're about sparking interest and learning more. This is a great design. I think if you put this reverse with obverse number 10, you're going to have a coin in serious contention for one of the finest coins that's come out the Mint in a long time. I would agree that the cauldron does need to be emphasized, if this is the one that is recommended. It certainly needs to be emphasized with a little more size, a little more detail. Also I believe that if this design is recommended, it would look very nice with incuse lettering for the rim inscriptions. So, very strong support for obverse 10 and reverse number two, and I'll now pass it on to Heidi. Chair Marks: Heidi? Member Wastweet: Thank you. I'd like to start my comments by addressing the artists and their efforts. We are really pleased overall with what we're seeing. We've asked repeatedly to see more symbology and we're seeing it. So, thank you, thank you, thank you. We love this. Now, the next step, I want to talk about being careful of our symbology, that we don't have unintended symbology, and I'm going to talk about 33 a few examples of that. We love seeing the artists’ statements here, and what their intentions are, but the artwork doesn't always match the intentions, and so, that is the next step, as we become more aware of what others might think of at first as the intentions of the artist. I want to start by going to obverse number eight as an example of this. Thank you. So, English readers, we read from left to right, and so, in looking at this design, the first character on the left is the white male, and so, we see first and foremost, he is the leader of this group. His head is physically, in the design, above all of the others. His head is raised. His chin is higher. He's looking forward to the future. He is obviously the leader in this group of people. This is not the message that we want to give, and the text that was chosen here, we cannot walk alone. So, when I see this, I read this as the minorities cannot be trusted to walk alone. They need the white man to lead them. This is the opposite of the message we're trying to send here. I understand that the artist has attempted to show diversity and ethnicity and people working together. It's not the message that's coming across. So, let's be very conscious and step outside ourselves and see what other interpretations can be gleaned from these, instead of just the intentions. So, obviously I'm not supporting this design for those reasons. Going backwards then to designs four and five -excuse me, let's go to six. Again, unintended symbology, the way that these signs are arranged, it looks like these characters are imprisoned by their signs. Again, the opposite of 34 the symbology that we want to present. Any time we depict people on these coins, we have the challenge of the ethnicity, as in the stakeholders’ and the CFA preference, we see on design 15, as this design here -- we can go ahead to 15, we have the problem, as been discussed, about we are only showing one race, and this issue affects us all, not just one race. The UNCF has requested more variety of ethnicity, but I feel like this is a complete redesign, and not just a simple change. So, I have trouble standing behind this design, for that reason, and I think that is too much of a change for us to approve as-is, and also the way the words run over the legs. It's always awkward when we have, as John said, that much terrain behind the text, especially text of that size. It doesn't read as well. If we could go briefly to obverse number nine. I know we struck this one off, but on the topic of unintended symbology, again, we're messing with an icon, and so, the message here I see is that she is not -- she is not good the way she is. She needs to be changed. That is just another example. So, overall with this program, the challenge I see here is: we don't want to be overly negative, nor do we want to be blindly positive. The challenges are not over. We still have a long way to go in equality, and that is why I'm not going to support any designs on the reverse with scales of justice, because it's not equal yet. We're still striving for equality. We've come a long way, but we're not there yet. So, let's not be too saccharine about this. It's not the end of the battle. So, if we could look at obverse number four and five. Well, let's go to four. Thank you. 35 I agree with the comments that we don't want to focus too much on the protest, but the reason I like this design is because the shadows indicate the passing of time. In order to have shadows, we have to have sun, and sun and light represent enlightenment and the passing of time and a new day. And our protesters here, we don't have to worry about ethnicity, but it has the human factor, and the protesters really were the seed of action. If it weren't for the protesters, nothing would have happened. So, the protesters are important, and because of the long shadows, we show how their actions go on over time to affect us, and so, I like design number four. Design number five, I think it doesn't emphasize the shadows enough, so it loses that symbology, but I do like design number four. It may be a little simple. It may not be the best design, but it deserves merit. If we could then go to design obverse 10, I agree with the previous comments. This is also my favorite design. I want to talk a little about execution, and if I could call on you, Steve, to talk about the reverberating bells, or the reverberation lines around the bell. Symbolically, this works so well, and the placement of the dates connects the event in history with the future and how it is not a one-time event, but that it continues to echo all the way to today, and the sun rising behind the monument also indicates the passing of time and hope for a new day. So, I think this design really nails it symbolically. So, let's talk about the technicality. It looks to me that the artist's intention was to have the field where the reverberation lines are, to have that raised and the bell to be sunk, and maybe the 36 sky behind the sun to be the polished area. Don, is that -Mr. Everhart: That's the way I read it. I think it could be really well done. If you raise that white area to the right of the bell, you can actually put very subtle vibration lines into that relief, and fade them out to the right. So, I think that would be a very effective vehicle. Member Wastweet: Yes, and fading something is not something we can typically do with a coin. So, it's very exciting that this design lends itself to do just that, something we don't see very often. Also, the text within that white area is all incused because you see it's black, where the 1964 will be raised and then, as Mike Olson suggested, the pawn could then be polished, as well as the sky. So, this is something that would make it look very fresh, very unusual for the coins that we usually see. So, this is a very exciting design. I'm behind this one completely. Steve, would you use any shading to represent the reverberation lines or just sculpted? Mr. Antonucci: I'd like to do a combination of both, I think. This might lend itself very well to that. These are some of the new techniques we're planning to move into, to take the artistic features and enhance them further. So, that is the direction I'd like to push for this. Member Wastweet: Well, we'd like to give you all artistic freedom to experiment with that and make something fun and exciting. If we could move to the reverses then, as I mentioned before, I don't like any of the designs with the symbolism of the scales because it implies that we have equality now, which we don't. This is an ongoing battle and I want this to reflect the fact 37 that we are still striving forward. Design number four, I rarely disagree with Gary, but I don't see these hands as missing each other. The way they are intertwined and not literal hands, but stylized hands, I see them reaching into each others lives and the play of light and dark also is in the same vein as the bell that we are liking, because it too has the push and pull, the positive/negative, the light, the dark, and this design works much better as a reverse than it does an obverse. It's simple, but it's clear. I think it matches well with the bell, and rather than the hands meeting, rather than scales that says we're equal, this says we're still striving. We're still reaching out to each other, to understand each other better as people and different groups within our country. I like this design very much. I also like design number two, as the others have said so far, with the flames, the stylized flames. I agree, the tip of the torch below the flame is out of proportion. It really could be larger, feels a little top-heavy with the flames. Love Gary's idea about the shades of texture, which we're anxious to use Steve's new technology in that area. So, I like both of those designs very well. I want to talk a minute about reverse design number seven. I agree, I would love to see this eagle recycled for a future product, because it's a beautifully drawn, well balanced design. I was interested in Michael Bugeja's comments about personifying the eagle. I don't disagree with that, but in reflection, historically we see a lot of this, the eagles typically hold banners in their beak. They hold the arrows in 38 their talons and the leaves, oak leaves and olive branches. So, we have historical precedent for that. So, I don't necessarily object to eagles being personified, but it's an interesting topic we can revisit in the future. Reverse design number eight, this is the preference of both of the future -- the previous groups, the CFA and the UNCF. I understand that education is really an important factor of this, but it is -- this design is limiting in its symbology, that it is so focused on the education and the comment “for all of God's children,” brings a touchy religious aspect into it. Overall, the design, it's just not beautiful. It's okay. The symbology is there. It's not as exciting to me as some of the others. Reverse number nine. I would like to send a message to the artist: please do not shade color into these designs. We cannot sculpt the darker skin versus the lighter skin. So, we don't want to see this represented in the designs. Keep in mind that these are sculptures. The design in the background to me looks like an airplane propeller and I agree with Gary, that the scale of this coin, we're not going to understand that it's a pen that they are passing between each other, so, let's keep in mind, the scale. Reverse number 10, I want to give this merit. I think this is a beautiful concept. The quote is just gorgeous, and because it's so symbolic, we don't have to worry about the ethnicity of people's faces and all these other complex symbols. It's a fresh idea. The execution of it is not quite there. It's too busy, too literal with the rocks. So, I can't fully get behind it, but I want to call out the merit that it's a 39 really fresh idea and I love the concept. I think that concludes my comments. Chair Marks: Thank you, Heidi. Michael Moran? Member Moran: I enjoy sitting next to Heidi. She's always got good sidebars. But when you follow her on a presentation, you are roadkill before you ever open your mouth. I'm going to keep my comments short and to the point, because I'm going to have some difficulties in making some decisions when I actually come down to voting. As I went through these obverses, I came to two favorites and they are number -- I'll put my glasses on -- number 10 and number 15. My concern with 10 at the time was: could we do this in coin relief? I quite often get fooled by the ability of that artist to sketch these in. Listening to the comments of Don and Steve, I'm willing to take that risk on this. I think the answer is, you can. But if you can't do that, then my choice is number 15, and the reason I say that is, I've got another issue here, and that is one, I'll use a quote that is one of my favorites and it's by Thomas Jefferson. "A nation both free and ignorant never was and never will be," and I like the connection of education. Unfortunately, it's not on 15 either. You have to go either to the reverse that is the choice of the CFA, or to the obverse, one of the obverses that we dismissed at the very beginning. That's one reason why I think 15 allows itself or lends itself to a modification that could help, because I'm obviously not going to want to choose 40 the CFA design. I'm going with number two on the reverse, and we'll get to that in a minute. That's why I'm muddying the waters even further, and I'll say this, it doesn't bother me that there is a protest element here, because the protests did not stop in 1964. They still haven't stopped because there is still goals to be achieved, nor does the diversity really bother me. But if you could take the figure that is on our right and put schoolbooks in her arms, you might get the symbology there for the education that you're not going to get on the reverse, unless we go with the choice with the mortarboard, and I don't think we are, if I get the sense of this group. I think we're all -- and I'm answering myself on number two, we're all going for that clean torch look. It needs the cauldron enlarged, and that is a simple fix. But I am torn with the obverse because I just -- you can't not recognize that education is a part of this process, and it's important to the achievement of the goals that are sought in the Civil Rights Act of 1964. So, I've just muddied the waters. you. Gary, back to Chair Marks: Thank you, I appreciate your mud. (Laughter.) Let's go to Tom. Member Uram: Thank you, Gary, and Desiree, thank you and the group that came and the group that was here last time, as we started on the project. When I first looked at the group on the obverse, and listening to my colleagues’ discussion here, I gravitated towards the ones with the flag, simply because the flag is united and having heard the 41 comments as it related to particularly obverse number eight, I can see, particularly when Heidi was talking about the message, but not getting it clear. I did like the flag. I think flags depict a united front and so forth. So, that leads me to obverse number 10, because it has the other flag, which is down there on the left, and I think from a numismatic point of view that I agree with a lot of the comments that have been made, that it's going to be a really outstanding production piece. I think it's going to really look great. The only comment that I would have would be, is it possible to take the “In God We Trust” and have it curved and let the “Let Freedom Ring” be the only linear device on the coin? That was the only thought. I thought it would curve it out and then your eyes would draw in also to the one linear item. For the reverse, I did like number 10 also. I thought that that was very well -- the comments and the motion of the water and the concern would be, as was mentioned, how that would really come across on the coin itself. So, I think it's a terrific image and a terrific message. The question would be how it would come across. So, that leads me back to the one that we're kind of gravitating towards, and that is the reverse number two, particularly if those -- you know, it has a great message and it also has the movement and the idea of the eternal flame and so forth, but having the incused letters and particularly in a proof device, is going to be an outstanding coin and representation for the Civil Rights Movement. I think it would really combination. Thank you. be an outstanding 42 Chair Marks: Thank you, Tom. Donald? Member Scarinci: Some really good stuff here, and you know, just to keep it short. I'm going to go along with obverse 10 and reverse two, as well, for many of the reasons that Gary recited in the beginning. But primarily, really because of one reason. We have an advantage that the CFA did not have and does not have. What we know that they don't know is that Steve is an artist and Steve is going to make this work, and you know, I am prepared to put full pressure on Steve, Mr. Antonucci: Thank you. Member Scarinci: -- because this design, if done the way he does it, is really a winner, and I have complete confidence he will. So, I'm going to go along with the obverse/reverse pairing. I think it's good. That being said, I also want to compliment the artists for a very, very nice grouping of designs overall here, and you know, I particularly like obverse 11. I like the hands thing. I don't agree that they're missing. I'm onboard with Heidi. Honestly, if I thought that I could persuade people to go with 11, I would do that. I just don't want to dilute. I want to stick with 10 and two. Member Wastweet: As an obverse or reverse? Member Scarinci: I do like 11. I like it as either. I mean, I think -- I hope we see things like this in the future. I hope we see maybe even this again, you know, in some other design. Number -- you know, I guess that's number 11 and number four, and then number nine, is it number 43 nine? Reverse nine. I like reverse nine. I just like that. I think that is, you know, I like what's going on with the circle, in the circle kind of stuff. I like the background of that. You know, the problem is, I'm not so sure, you know, that it's depictable to, you know -- on a coin. You know, but I think that's a creative and progressive design. The other one that I like is reverse, I guess four and five, and I just wanted to -- you know, I liked it, you know. I like reverse four and five, and it's -and the reason I guess I kind of like it, you know, it's basically van Niekerk's South African 2010 meerkat, the 2011 meerkat. I'd hold up a picture. This one, and of course, it's a great design. It won the Gold Coin of the Year Award, the Krause Gold Coin of the Year Award for 2011. Beautiful design. It uses instead of the, you know, it uses instead of the shadow of the meerkats, it uses the shadow of the sand. That's why I kind of kept the three-person image in, because if there was support for this one, you know, I'd probably be talking about using the three-image one and just raising it, so that you get the shadow. But I think it's too -- I think we can use this somewhere. I just think it's too soon and it's too similar to the South African -- you know, the two thousand and -- that one. I just think it's too much like the meerkat. You know, if you could see it, you know, see the design. Beautiful, beautiful coin. Obviously, it's a coin of the -- it won the award for, I think either best gold and possibly best gold and most artistic, for two -by Krause Coin of the Year. So, anyway, great group. Not to belabor it, done. 44 Chair Marks: Thank you, Donald. Michael Ross? Member Olson: I kind of want to address our audience for a moment. In some ways, you're in the position that I'm always in on this Committee, that I'm surrounded by people who have a deep love for coin design and want to produce beautiful coins, and I really know nothing about it. I'm a historian, and I'm always interested in producing a coin that could be a teaching moment. The way we teach the Civil Rights Act these days at universities is twofold, and one is the intense moment from which it came, where the combination of the Children's Crusade in the spring of 1963 turning Kennedy to support a Civil Rights Act, followed by the march on Washington, the Birmingham Church bombing, the assassination of Kennedy, turned Johnson and the Congress, where the white South had been obstructing the Bill regularly, it was a moment that turned the conscience of a nation, and a lot of it had to do with the things individuals were doing. For that, I feel like this coin should have people in it, and I see a beautiful coin shaping up here of the 10/2, but it's a coin that is strangely depersonalized, both for the cause of the Act and the actual result of the Act, which was empowering individuals. So, that is my concern. It will be a beautiful coin, but kind of removed from the people that pushed it and the impact it had on individuals afterwards. So, I like 15 in that regard, and I agree that maybe you shift out one of the figures and put in a white man or woman, perhaps with the iconic black glasses that seem to be in so many of the Civil Rights photographs and appear elsewhere in some of the artwork. 45 Then on the reverse, and this is where I know the United Negro College Fund hopes to have an education theme, and there, as the historian, I’d say that might be privileging a piece of the Civil Rights Act, that I don't think is the one that gets emphasized historically. It's usually Title II and III, the public accommodations portions of the Civil Rights Act, and Title VII, the equal access to jobs are considered the great historical significance of the Civil Rights Act, and the education piece usually isn't highlighted. So, in a historical sense, I think we would be representing a piece of the Civil Rights Act, or representing the Civil Rights Act inaccurately by highlighting Title IV. So, with that said, I like 15. I understand the beauty of 10, but I like 15, and then on the back, again, I like nine, because it seems to be showing this moment of symbolism, where the actions of the -- on the one side led to this moment where the Act gets passed on the other side. But again, this is for a historical impact, rather than the beauty of the coin. Chair Marks: Thank you, Mike. Jeanne? Member Stevens-Sollman: not to make this too long. Okay, I'm going to try First, I would like to thank the artists so much. I was overwhelmed with the binder this time. So, thank you, staff. Thank you, artists. I think we really have a difficult time today, because we have so many choices and they're nice to look at. Good choices. I'm going to throw a little sand into Michael's mud that he tossed out a little bit, and as we've been going over these obverses, and hearing the discussion, I'm going to do something that's probably a little unprecedented, and I'm sorry, 46 Gary, to just do this. But when I look at obverse number 12, and we opted not to talk about this particular piece. However, just to talk about the diversity and this particular grouping of people and the fact that they're holding hands in front of the Washington Monument and the mall, I think this is, in some way, very powerful to me. I didn't want to talk about it in the beginning because it is kind of complex. I don't know if it would read very well, as a coin. But I do want to thank the artist for making this incredible attempt to give us so much diversity and unity. The only thing that kind of bothered me about this was the background, that kind of looked like Mesa Verde in the back, instead of the outline of the city. But I do like this. I do like what's happening here. However, it's not my final choice. I want to talk about obverse 11 and the reasons that Heidi mentioned, that it is an attempt to reach out. It's not a binding piece yet. We still have work to do. But I love the fact that it's simple and in its simplicity, very powerful. I do like this one very much. However, my colleagues are opting for number 10, and I can see how very positive this is going to be, especially if we can have the reverberation of that bell. The thing that bothers me somewhat is the crowd. In the end, Steve, is that crowd going to look like sand? I think -- yes, that is my only negative comment about this side, and also, I do agree, and my colleagues request to have "In God We Trust," if 47 this is chosen, to be circular instead of in a straight line. On the reverse, reverse one is again, for me, too much like some of our other coins, especially the mercury dime, as Gary pointed out. Number two, which is the choice of everyone, I think I'm going to have to agree with that. It's, in its simplicity, very powerful. So, thank you. Chair Marks: Thank you, Jeanne. Erik? Member Jansen: I'll raise this up, slightly different physical stature here. First of all, thank you to the artists who contributed in volume and in quality and in heartfulness here. I was overwhelmed by the sheer volume of investment in this coin and the Baptist Church coin we'll be talking about later. Thank you, artists, for realizing there is a comfort zone in symbols and for delivering some powerful symbols. Please understand that going forward, there will continue to be comfort in symbols, and that doesn't mean we can't have realistic images, but symbols are more powerful because they transcend single words. If there is a single message I want to send the Committee here it is, however you're planning to vote at this point, I'm the last speaker I think, hold the two images in your mind and ask the following question. Does this coin have the energy of the Act, as you will vote for it? Gary opened this with the comments, we're here charged to commemorate an Act, but Mike Ross really summed it up for me, when he said, "When you take the people, the persons, the personal out of this coin, you take away the energy, which is the back-drop of the historical truth here," that as much 48 as I hate to say it, 50 years later, there is less celebration due than there is keeping your eye on the tiger. So, I would say, when you're choosing your images here, please look to see that you're investing energy in this coin, and returning the energy to the people that have invested along the way to show us the improvements we can make, as opposed to celebrating a piece of paper called an Act. I like on the obverse, I've been drawn to image number four the whole way. It is simple. I don't care for the "We Shall Overcome" across the top. I think that is a prime spot for a more powerful set of words, and I'm not going to say what those words could be, but those words could be about anything. I don't like design five because it doesn't have the depth of the shadows. It doesn't show the light behind the people coming through time. It doesn't show the expansive energy of these people's single efforts into the shadows of time. So, five is not an issue in my mind. Four, I like much better, the balance, the design. The placards, it's funny, the placard is more important than the message, because the placard means: what I believe can make a difference. I think that is the unifying opportunity, which has created the coming together in protest, which made the difference here. So, I look at four images here, folks. I'm looking at obverse four. I'm looking at obverse 10, which has become a freight train here of technical prowess, as opposed to delivering the right result. It's an image that I am worried that the reflecting pool photo in the bell is going to get -- it's not going to come through. I think we can do textures and we can do all kinds of fun things here, but I am worried that the crowd and the lower portions of the 49 bell is just going to become a texture. But I walk away with image four and image 10, and then going to the reverses, I like the hands, and it's a much better reverse than it is an obverse. So, I end up with two reverses here, that is reverse two and reverse four. So, I have four images in my mind and I'm trying to find energy and I'm trying to find people and I'm trying to find a coin that tells us where we've come from, to remind us where we need to go. Image two on the reverse is an iconic image. I've seen this flame intertwined in several instances of art in my own life, but yes, I think it's an intellectual pursuit and it loses the gristle of our battle here. So, your votes are probably solidified and what I think may end up mattering here is, if you believe you're alone in liking image four on the obverse, or you think you're alone because reverse two isn't exactly what you want, you've got a different thought. I encourage you to strengthen your votes for what you think may make you an outlier and don't vote so hard for what you think is the freight train, and we may get a higher-energy coin that preserves the real struggle in 50 years, so that someone who picks this coin up can say, "It took them 50 years to figure out that they weren't done yet." Thank you. Chair Marks: Thank you, Erik. We're a few minutes past time on our agenda to move onto the next item, so, I'm going to ask that any final -- or I want to open for some concise final comments. We've had a lot to discuss here. I'll just offer just a couple quickly. To my friends, I want to address the idea that somehow 10 de-personalizes the issue. On the contrary, I think it is an expansive image 50 that speaks of liberty and freedom, those core values that are connected with our Civil Rights. It shows the rising sun. It's rising. It's not up in the sky. It's still got a ways to go, but it's hopeful. The throng of people, it de-personalizes it, in what kind of person you are. It's for all of us, and the reverberation showing the continuing impact of the Act, I mean, it's all there. We have talked so much on this Committee about asking for symbolism, powerful symbolism, and I'd suggest that we have it with number 10. So, I offer that just as a friendly feedback on the idea that 10 de-personalizes. Then as far as obverse 11 and reverse four, which are basically the same design of the hands, I totally get it, folks, that the hands are intended to be reaching into each other's world. I understand that. I like it. I like that modern interpretation of the whole Civil Rights issue in this way. But when I look at these designs, I always want to make sure what alternate interpretations might be coming out of a design that we don't really intend, we don't want. Say what you will, but there is a plausible interpretation that the hands are reaching past each other. So, those are my last comments, and if anyone else has any final ones, have at it. Heidi? Member Wastweet: also on obverse 10. I have two brief comments, Mike Ross, I always love hearing your comments. They're so valuable to me. I love your perspective. When I first saw this design, my initial reaction was that it was too much in a small space, that we couldn't tell that that was a crowd. It was just going to become just texture, but then I realized it's 51 okay, that that becomes just a texture, because this is an iconic image. We all know what it represents and the emotion here for me is all those people coming together and converging on this scene. The number of people is what holds the emotion for me, here, and I think that even though they become just a texture and they're faceless, we will understand that it's people, and that is the human element. My second comment is that I haven't talked for a while about our voting system, so I want to reiterate. We vote on a scale with a maximum score of three. Please don't just pick one favorite and give that a three score and everything else a zero. If there is something that is your second choice, please give it a score. We want to send a message of not just our pick, but the others that we like, and it's not just on each of us to pick one favorite, but to score those that have merit and let the overall vote make the choice. So, don't just overweight the one choice with your score. That's it. Chair Marks: Others, quickly? Okay, well, that concludes our discussion then. I'll ask the members to fill out their scoring sheets, and when you have your sheet completed, please pass it in towards Erik, and he'll be tallying that result. When we get the result completed, we'll report that in the midst of the meeting. I'm not sure at what point it will be, but I will try to get that information out as quickly as possible. 2014 Baseball Hall of Fame Review Meanwhile, we have the next item on our agenda, which is the review of candidate designs for the 2014 Baseball Hall of Fame Commemorative Coin 52 Program, and if April Stafford and Leslie Schwager are ready, I would like to call on you for our staff report. Ms. Stafford: Okay, thank you very much. So, for background, the National Baseball Hall of Fame Commemorative Coin Act, Public Law 112-152 authorizes the Secretary to design, mint and issue five-dollar gold coins, one-dollar silver coins and half-dollar clad coins in 2014, in recognition and celebration of the National Baseball Hall of Fame. The Act also required the Secretary to conduct a competition for the coins’ common obverse design, which should be emblematic of the game of baseball. The United States Mint administered a national design competition and received a total of 178 designs. In addition, the Act states that it is the sense of Congress that, to the extent possible and economical, the coins reverses be convex to more closely resemble a baseball, and their obverses be concave. The common reverse design is required to depict a baseball similar to those used by Major League baseball. We've included in your materials as reference, the final reverse design approved by the Secretary of the Treasury. The National Baseball Hall of Fame plans to unveil the design on July 26th in Cooperstown, New York. Inscriptions are required on the obverse. They are Liberty, In God We Trust and 2014. Artists were permitted to include other inscriptions when submitting obverse candidate designs. We will have with us Ken Meifert, the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum Senior Director of Development, and I would like to turn the microphone over to him, to make some comments. Ken, thank you for joining us. Right on time. 53 Perfect timing. Mr. Meifert: So, have you reviewed all -- have you gone over the designs yet? Ms. Stafford: No, sir, just the very beginning. Mr. Meifert: Okay, great. Well, we have one design that we really like in particular. It's HOF-01, and I think for me, you know, many folks earliest memories of the game of baseball are a game of catch in the backyard with mom or dad, and I think the -- you know, the romanticism of having the baseball prominently featured on one side of this coin and the glove on the other side just makes sense to me. It's baseball in its purest form and in its most basic sense. So, we also feel that that -- the -- you know, it really leverages the curved nature of this coin, with the glove side being concave to take in the shape of the glove, and the baseball side being convex. We think it just makes a really nice balanced package. So, thank you. Chair Marks: Thank you. Ms. Stafford: And that is the background and we will now start looking at the designs. Design one features a baseball glove and highlights the concave nature of the coin. The artist notes state, "It is a fundamental symbol for teamwork and camaraderie. Two wheat sheaves unite with the braided lace of the glove to form a ring. This stands for American unity, stitched together to form one Nation." "The wheat celebrates a love for our bountiful land and home," and as Mr. Meifert noted, this is the Hall of Fame's preferred design. It's also the CFA's recommendation. The Hall of Fame suggests modifying the design to 54 remove the wheat sheaves to ensure they're not confused as stitches, and this was a modification with which the CFA concurred. Design two features crossed bats, a baseball and an eagle with wings spread. The artist designed this coin using elements to symbolize baseball and how it ties into the fabric of our country. The artist states, "Baseball was born in America and as the country has grown, so has baseball." Design three depicts an eagle representing the United States and is shown holding home plate, where the game begins and ends. The eagle is placed over a rising baseball with the sunrise background. The inscription "America's Pastime" is also included. Design four depicts crossed bats and a ball in a glove over home plate. The inscription "Baseball: America's Game" is included. Baseballs and stars surround the design in an effort to, per the artist, celebrate the nature of the game. In design five the artist endeavored to create an athletic, modern and unique design by featuring the year 2014 with a baseball bat in the background. The artist placed the words "In God We Trust" in a banner with stars to indicate that baseball players are "stars in the field." Design six depicts a player about to successfully hit the ball into the outfield. The flag, portrayed in an outline of our country, serves as a reminder that baseball is considered America's favorite pastime. Design seven depicts a baseball glove of the 1930's and 1940's, used by the artist because it was just like the glove that his father used when they played baseball together when he was a very young boy. The design is meant to extenuate the concave 55 nature of the coins. I would like to note that this design was created using a 3-D format. At the completion of these design previews, we'd present this design for review in that format to the Committee. Design eight illustrates all that is the essence of baseball, a bat, a ball and a glove. The artist also chose to include a dugout bench and a baseball cap. The insignia on the cap is a simple baseball diamond with the letters BB for baseball. Design nine depicts a vintage 1930's glove and ball, crossed bats and a banner are in the background. Design 10 depicts a baseball player. In the background, pendants are seen waving atop a ball park with the inscription "Liberty" in a team style script. The artist envisioned that symbolically, the player has just hit the baseball depicted on the coin’s reverse. Design 11 represents a view from the eye of the pitcher, a batter about to make contact with the pitched ball, a catcher and the home plate umpire. Design 12 depicts crossed bats and a ball with a version of the American flag in the background. The Stars and Stripes as a backdrop underscore the sport of baseball as America's pastime. Design 13 depicts a stylized batter with an American flag shown in the outline of our country. The inscriptions "Baseball, Proud, American and Classic" have been included. The artist wanted the design to have a patriotic look, and notes the main elements of the design, stars, stripes and baseball are "three things which represent the spirit of America with enthusiasm, pride and grace." 56 Design 14 depicts two baseball players. Surrounding the coin are nine starts which represent the nine fielders found on a baseball diamond. Design 16 depicts a slugger hitting a pitch with an over-sized baseball as background. Design 17 was, according to the artist, designed to create something that is emblematic of baseball and they used a baseball field as the foundation of this design. Integrated into the design are crossed bats, stars and stripes and a baseball, and that is the end of the designs, Mr. Chairman. Yes, we'll go to the 3-D version. We'll pause for a second. We have to make contact with our -- there we go. Chair Marks: While we're waiting for this, I just, I think the Committee understands this, but this program has a goal that is: gold five-dollar, silver dollar and a clad half-dollar. The design we pick today is going to be on all of those, okay. A common obverse, it's also a common reverse. So, we pick one and it applies to all. Ms. Stafford: Correct. Chair Marks: For the benefit of the written record, I'll just say that the Committee is viewing on the screen an image that shows the concave nature of the obverse, in relation to one of the designs. Ms. Stafford: Design seven. Chair Marks: mitt. Design seven, showing a baseball Member Bugeja: Thank you. 57 Ms. Stafford: Okay, thank you, and that is what we have for you, Mr. Chairman. Chair Marks: Thanks. Okay, yes, go ahead. Member Scarinci: To facilitate the discussion Chair Marks: Go ahead. Member Scarinci: If there is anyone who doesn't agree with this design, maybe they should just be the ones who speak. Chair Marks: Yes, I think we'll -- I appreciate the -Member Scarinci: I don't need to speak. Chair Marks: Yes, yes, I might feel very closely to you. I'm not sure, but I think so, but I think we need to go through our normal process. Member Scarinci: Okay, okay. Chair Marks: And I'm not sure it's going to take a lot of time, but in fairness to everyone, we'll -Member Scarinci: You can skip me. Chair Marks: Let's go through our -- right, right. I appreciate the idea. Okay, before we get into our follow-on discussion, do we have any technical questions that need to be answered? I'd like to get those out of the way. If not, okay. Then I'm going to go and I'm going to recognize Tom first. Can you start us off on our discussion? Member Uram: Sure, Gary. Thank you. Many of the designs are, in a way, graphic-looking to me, in regards to just symbolmatic and so forth, and that is great in a way, but for the purpose of a coin, I like the mitt idea. I like the idea of either number one or the one that was just shown, that the young mitt, as well, but I 58 like the idea of that being number seven. The question becomes which one might transfer to a coin in the best way, and in a way, I kind of think number one would do a little bit better and represent where we are today, and I understand the artist looking back and saying, you know, the 30's and 40's glove, as well. But some of the other designs, while they might be well-intentioned, I think I don't want the coin to look like a symbol for the National League or the American League in a way, and a number of them come across that way. So, to stay short, I will listen to my other colleagues as it relates to some of the gloves, but I certainly would not like to see a coin that has a symbol on it versus a depiction of what we're trying to accomplish. Chair Marks: Thank you, Tom. Donald? Member Scarinci: One gets the word “cool.” It's a no-brainer. It's an award winner. You can't miss with this, and I don't think we can blow it with anything we're going to put on the other side, if we go with this. So, with one, I think one is the way to go. brainer to me. Chair Marks: Thank you, Donald. being concise. Mike Ross? No- Thank you for Member Olson: One or seven. Chair Marks: Jeanne? Member Stevens-Sollman: I think this program was quite wonderful to open it up to a lot of young people, to get them very excited about designs and about coinage. I particularly enjoyed some of these, even though they were flat. It was interesting to see how people 59 conceived this concave/convex metal. With that said, I have to agree, number one is my choice. I think it's -- I love how the artist kind of put “Liberty” and “In God We Trust” in the center of the mitt, and it's soft. The only thing I'm a little nervous about is, I don't like 2014. It's looks like a z. So, you know, if we have to -- if we do choose this, I'd like to go back to, you know, making that 2 look a little bit more like a 2 and not a z. As for the wheat and the glove, looking like stitches, you know, I just like what this artist intended. So, one is my choice. Seven, I can't even consider because it just doesn't have the quality that this one has. So, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chair Marks: Thank you, Jeanne. Mr. Jansen? Member Jansen: I watched design number seven kind of become the poster-child of a lot of the PRs, and I think the press has a habit of hot-spotting on single images and things, and it got hot-spotted, which I felt was kind of unfair. Not that it's anybody's fault. It's just the nature of the press. But as I looked at design seven, and I liked it early on. It was produced well by the artist, and presented well in color and so forth, but I had this recurring thought that, I look at my glove and it's got these burned-in logo types and so forth, and the original gloves from the early years of baseball typically didn't, but I think the ones that everybody has played with, they say Rawlings or Mizuno or any other names you might have. Then design number one pops up and it was like, it was right, and I think I would go with the removal of the wheat ears on the thumb and pinkie-finger side of the glove. I think that is right, I think they are distracting from the “Liberty” and “In God We 60 Trust.” I think Z014 is a strange date. So, I might go for the two-izing of that z, as well. However, having said all of that, I thought to myself, okay, a coin with a ball on one side and a glove on the other side, call me an energy nut, doesn't have any energy. So, I went through the designs thinking, okay, if I was to try to put a little more texture to the sport, a little more breadth to the symbols, I end up at design eight. Okay, you know, design eight could work. So, I didn't rule that one out. I ended up with design 11, where energy of those good straight arms mass of the batter's body through through to the ball, and off it goes. cool. there is the passing the to the bat, That's pretty I further kind of looked at this design and I said, "Okay, make it better," and I said, "Okay, put the catcher and the ref in pretty shallow relief and really bring that batter forward in full top-end relief." So, that when you look at him, you don't see the three faces like the regretting pitcher has in his mind at this instant of time, but you in fact, see the top relief in the batter, delivering his energy to the ball, and maybe the ball is the absolute highest relief, just so they'll stack, right? This design delivers to me, the energy I would love to see on the opposite side of the highly static, highly emblematic pre-determined baseball on the convex side of this coin. So, I am actually -- I'm drawn one of two ways, and I think it will be a different, but a fascinating coin either way, with either design one, with the modifications we spoke of, which, if it's selected, we would do a side motion afterwards. So, let's not focus on the changes. Let's focus on the design, or 61 11, which has this just, every kid dreams of being that guy, that guy, at that moment, with that bat, on that ball, over that wall. Thank you. Chair Marks: Thank you, Erik. I'll be brief, and please excuse my baseball vernacular, but when you look at the concave nature of the obverse, in relation to design number one, and pair it with the convex reverse with baseball design that has already been selected, you have a home run. That is all I have to say. Thank you. Member Olson: I'm going to take us around all the bases here to get to the home run. Member Jansen: Can I tag you out at first? Member Olson: I can run faster than you. No, I think I'm not certainly going to talk about all of them, but I did make some notes and in fairness to the artists that submitted designs, I do want to make a comment on a few. All of these designs need to be reviewed with a critical eye towards how it will translate into a concave coin, the first that the U.S. Mint has ever made, and if we don't look at that, we're missing the opportunity, because it is a great opportunity. You see a lot of designs here where we've got crossed bats. I think, without modification and finding some extra metal in a concave design, those bats are going to look bent, when you're looking into the concave surface. So, without adjustment, those really didn't get any consideration for me, even though, in many cases, some of them were good designs on a flat coin. They just won't work well on the concave. So, we really need to take advantage of this opportunity. I know that we will. There were four designs that really appeared to me took advantage of being concave, and two were the 62 gloves, number one and number seven, and enough has been said about those. I don't believe anything has been said about number 10. Number 10 has the curvature of the stadium and the action of the batter. If you look -- put that in a concave situation, I think that would look very well. I am going to support the glove, as many others are, but I did want to point this out, that this particular artist did take that consideration with the curvature of the stadium, and I think this would make a fine-looking coin. The glove is certainly of more interest to me and it sounds like many others on the Committee, but I did want to specifically point this one out, that this one would work well also. I do agree somewhat with Erik on number 11, that this one could possibly be worked in a concave manner. I mean, imagine if you're the pitcher or you're the ball, what if you're the ball there? You're headed right to the bat. That's kind of cool, and that one could work as well. The size of these coins, everyone knows this is going to go on all the way from a very small fivedollar coin, all the way up to a fairly large silver dollar. The majority of these designs are too small to support -- or the coins are too small to support these designs. You know, I will say that it is unfortunate that we can only pick one. I wish the legislation would have allowed us to pick three, but we can't. Therefore, my support, as the support of many others, I'm going to go with number one. I'm going to give full support to that. I am -- will support -make a motion or support a motion to rid the design of its wheat ears. I believe those are distracting, and I think we'll have a winner here, and Gary said 63 it well. It will be a home run. That's it. Chair Marks: Heidi? Member Wastweet: Thank you. I also want to give quick merit to design number 10 for its sensitivity to the curvature of the coin. I like the curve of the stadium. So, I just wanted to call that out. But I am giving support to design number one. We all like this design, but I want to praise it a little bit about why we like it. As our guest speaker said, it calls to the nature of playing catch in the backyard. This isn't just about professional sports or the big leagues. It's about everybody, down to t-ball players. By depicting just the glove and not a player, this is something that everyone can relate to. The glove has a very tactile quality, as the coin will too. Because of the curved nature of the coin, people will want to touch it, the way we rub the glove and feel the texture of the leather. So, that works as well too. It's the obvious subject, because we have a ball in one side, well, it makes sense to have a glove on the side, but the challenge is, how do we make it not boring, because just a glove is just a glove. It's not very creative. So, I just love this design for the fact that it put the 'Liberty' as leather work into the glove. That is where the creativity comes. It's simple. It's effective. It's fresh. It's new. It's going to work. I am in strong support of keeping these wheat leaves are part of that creativity touch that makes this stand out, not just a glove. In the drawings, yes, it's a little confusing. It does look a little like stitches, but in the hands of the sculptor, it's not going to be that. 64 The sculptor will clearly depict the difference between the stitches and the leaves. The leaves will be raised and a little concave in their shape, whereas the stitches go back down into the leather. I think it's going to be very clear, the difference, where we're not seeing it in the drawing. So, I recommend sticking with the artist's intention. One quick question for Don and Steve. Do you feel like the design needs to be pulled in from the edge a little, to work -- to fill that unique shape? Mr. Antonucci: One of the things, Heidi, that we have to -- all of our development efforts on this program have showed this, that height of relief is going to be a major issue. Design 10, or design 11, rather, sort of pulls that right out to me. Trying to get that depth of field that you're asking becomes very problematic. So, this particular design, design one, I think lends itself very well, and Don and I were just discussing the -- someone brought up about the fact that the leather is burned, to the point that the -- Rawlings, or whatever the name is. I think that's how we ought to approach, although the lettering on this, do it incused, make it look like it was burned in. It would really lend itself very well. But not polished. Member Wastweet: No, not polished. No, it has to look like it's cut into the leather. It could be the way saddles are tools. That would work, as well, and I think that may be what the drawing is trying to depict, or burned in. Like you say, either way could work and I'm fine leaving that up to your discretion. That's all my comments. Chair Marks: Michael? Member Moran: here. I guess I'm the clean up batter 65 Member Bugeja: I haven't gone yet. Member Moran: I am going to go with the group. I think we're led toward this by the provisions in the law. Concave, convex, it's a no-brainer, a ball one side and a mitt on the other. There are very few designs that -- other than this that would work in this situation, and maybe that was the intent, that we would be led down this road. You just can't fight it. I do think that it restricts the artistry that could have been employed, because we really didn't give some of these other designs justification because they're not going to strike up. The other thing that the law is flawed in is one design fits all. This Mint when through this in the 19th century with all of their circulating coins and got taken to the wood shed for it, particularly the silver coinage of the Liberty. They do not work. You cannot get one design that fits a five-dollar gold piece, and also fits a dollar coin, and that is the track you fall into, when you get this kind of legislation. I know we can't stop it. When it gets -- a freight goes, it goes. But if we could ever get in on this at the ground floor and convince the legislators that they missed an opportunity here to really give some of these other people that didn't choose the baseball mitt, an opportunity at fair level playing field to let their designs compete. So I am voting for one, too. Chair Marks: All right, thank you, Michael. That concludes our discussion. Is there any follow up? Member Bugeja: Gary, did I get a turn? Chair Marks: I'm sorry, Michael. course you do. I'm sorry. Of 66 Member Bugeja: It's so easy to forget when we're on speaker phone. Chair Marks: terrible of me. Yes, I apologize, Michael. That's Member Bugeja: But I've been waiting patiently. Chair Marks: Go ahead, please. Member Bugeja: Thank you, Gary. You know, it's very difficult to get away from number one, and to go with the baseball on the other side, just based on the coin. Listening, you know, when I first saw it, I said, "Oh, it's a mitt," but then as I started looking closer into it, I saw all those little subtleties, and I would agree with Heidi about the wheat ears. I think it makes it a coin. Please be careful that it's not just a mitt. I have to say that my preference actually was not for that, but was for the batter, catcher and umpire, because if you're a pitcher, that is what you see. You hone in on that strike zone. But I like the action of it. If you can't have action and people in a sports coin, then I'm not sure where else you can find it. The tide is really going towards the mitt and ball, and once again, we come up with what is the heads and what is the tails? So, if we use this coin in a football field, to see who gets the ball and who kicks or who gets to kick or receive, I don't know if the mitt is the head or the ball is the head. But I think the train for the mitt and ball already has left the station, so, I'll just leave it there. Chair Marks: Okay, thank you, Michael. I'll ask all the members now to go ahead and fill out their 67 scoring sheets, and for the record, in case you're wondering, we are communicating with Michael Bugeja via email for his scores, and in the sense of the discussion we've been having, I'll let you know that the email I just sent him is, "Please send me your baseball scores, when ready. Thanks." So, anyway, you can fill out those sheets, pass them into Erik and we'll get those scores tabulated as quickly as possible. At this point on our agenda, we are scheduled to take up our fiscal 2013 annual report. We're somewhat ahead of schedule at this point. So, I think this is an ideal time to have a bit of a recess. So, we're going to go ahead and do that, and not to lose all of our time advantage, I'll ask everyone to be back at 20 minutes to 12 o'clock, and at that point, we'll reconvene and get going on the annual report, and hopefully also at that point, we'll have some scores, so tallies to report on these last two programs. We are recessed. (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the record at 11:20 a.m. and resumed at 11:45 a.m.) Chair Marks: I am calling the meeting back into session. Thank you, everyone. Before we move on to our discussion on the Fiscal 2013 annual report, I wanted to take a moment to get back to you on the scoring for the few programs we looked at prior to the break. The first of course, being the Civil Rights Act commemorative program. On the obverse, I'll chronological order. just go through this in Designs one and two received zero. Design three received one. Four received 12 points. Five received one. Six and seven received zero. Eight received seven. 68 I'll just give you context here. Of the highest possible score, with 10 members voting, is 30. So, that is the highest possible. Sixteen is our threshold, 50+ percent that you need to gain a recommendation. So, going onto obverse design number nine, it received zero. Obverse 10 received 24, and is the Committee's indicated recommendation. Design 11 received one. Design 12 received three. Thirteen and 14 were both zero. Design 15 received 12. Moving to the reverse of the Civil Rights coin program. Design one received five. Design two received 25 of the possible 30 and is the Committee's indicated recommendation. Design three received zero. Design four received 11. Designs five, six and seven received zero. Design eight received four points. Design nine received five points, and design 10 received four. Moving onto baseball, I'm happy to report that every design received points. So, reverse -- I'm sorry, obverse -- well, they're all obverse. Design one received a perfect score of 30, and is the Committee's recommendation. Design two received six. Design three received five. Design four received five. Design five received four points. Design six received seven. Design seven received 10. Design eight received four points. Nine received five. Ten received nine. Design 11 received eight points. Design 12 received five. Design 13 received five. Design 14 received six. Design 16, 15 is missing, design 16 received four points and design 17 received five. 69 I'd like to thank everyone for your contributions to those scoring processes. Member Jansen: Mr. Chairman, there was some comment about a modification that we might want to have a motion on, about the baseball glove. Chair Marks: Yes, there was. Is there a discussion and a motion in that regard? Member Wastweet: keep the leaves. I'd like to make a motion to Chair Marks: To what? Member Wastweet: To keep the leaves. Chair Marks: Explain. Keep the? Member Wastweet: On design number one there was a suggestion of removing the wheat leaves from the mitt. Member Olson: Do you need to make a motion to keep them, once they're in there? Chair Marks: No. Member Wastweet: It's been suggested by the CFA. Chair Marks: That they be removed? Okay, well, we, indeed, could do a motion to affirm the wheat leaves. Is that the proper -Member Wastweet: Sheaves. Chair Marks: you. Sheaves, sorry, I was mis-hearing Member Olson: Was there some sentiment towards maybe getting this worked up on this? Member Wastweet: We could do that. Member Olson: Somebody had mentioned that. I would like to take them off, unless they can be somehow separated from the stitching, and then put 70 them on there. Member Stevens-Sollman: Mr. Chairman, I think part of the discussion was for incusing the leaves and the lettering, to make it look more like it was embedded in the leather, and maybe that would be the motion, Heidi. I'm not sure. Member Wastweet: There was a suggestion by Don and Steve of burning in or incusing -- not incusing but -Mr. Everhart: For the lettering. Member Wastweet: leaves. For lettering only, not the Mr. Everhart: But my suggestion is since the Hall of Fame doesn't want the stitches, the CFA doesn't want them, I personally don't like them myself, I'd say get them out of there. Member Wastweet: You don't like the wheat leaves -- sheaves? Mr. Everhart: It confuses the issue, as far as the stitching is concerned. It does look like stitching. That is what I thought at first. I don't think it adds to the design. I think it detracts from it. My suggestion would be to get rid of it. Mr. Meifert: I would second that. From the Hall of Fame standpoint, I actually didn't realize that they were wheat sheaves, until I saw the artist description. We assumed that they represented laurel leaves, which, you know, are a traditional symbol of excellence and victory and a motif that plays very strongly into the -- you know, the bronze plaques that are immortalize at games Grates and Cooperstone. So, when I saw that they were wheat sheaves, I 71 was a little confused about what the tie is to baseball. So, but you know, from our standpoint, I think it busies up the design, you know, so, we would recommend removing them. Member Olson: replaced. I'd make a motion that they be Member Wastweet: That's a good point. Member Bugeja: I would just like to say that -Member Wastweet: I think that they could be interpreted as either laurel leaves, and the fact that those look more like laurel, then wheat, and it makes a lot more sense, is that -Chair Marks: Okay, there is a motion on the floor to -Member Jansen: I'm going to second Mike, to remove the wheat sheaves. Chair Marks: It's been seconded. further discussion? Is there any Member Uram: I think there was a comment raised in the earlier voting comments about also correcting the number two in the date 2014. Chair Marks: Okay, let's do that, once we've dealt with this motion. Is there any discussion on the motion? Okay, all those in favor, please raise your hand. (Show of hands) Chair Marks: Seven. Opposed? One? Bugeja? Member Bugeja: I'm opposed. Chair Marks: Okay, so, that's two, and I'm missing a vote, and one abstention. 72 So, the vote is seven, two, one. So, it passes. Okay, so, now, do I have a motion addressing the numeral two? Mr. Everhart: Gary, could I just say one thing before we go forward on that? Chair Marks: Yes, please. Mr. Everhart: At the CFA meeting, one of the suggestions was to clean up the lettering because it looked kind of amateur and organic, and I mentioned that we can do that. We can make the lettering look much more professional and mechanical, if that is what is needed. So, we do have the latitude to change that, if need be. Chair Marks: You know, my thought on that would be, you know, we're all familiar with gloves that have text kind of printed into them, whether it's the brand of the glove or whatever. I think it would be really cool if the lettering could look like it's, you know, kind of tooled in there, into the leather. Mr. Everhart: We were discussing that, you know, putting like a laser frosting to make it look like it's worn into the glove and it's part of the Rawlings or whatever they -- you know, whatever the brand is. Chair Marks: Okay, yes. Member Scarinci: Mr. Chairman, could I suggest a motion, a very simple motion, because in addition to that, I mean, there is some sentiment of curving the 'In God We Trust', and maybe rather than us designing the coin, maybe what we should do is have a motion, since this is an important piece, and I'd rather not take responsibility for it. Why don't we just do a simple motion to allow the Mint artist to take, you know, artistic license to 73 achieve the best result? Chair Marks: Okay, I believe the motion would be to recommend? Member Scarinci: Correct. Chair Marks: Yes, to recommend and -- state it again, please. Member Scarinci: To recommend that the Mint artists be given the artist license to achieve the best design result. Chair Marks: Okay, and it's been moved and seconded, moved and seconded. Is there any further discussion? Mr. Antonucci: It's the wrong sport, but isn't that a punt? Chair Marks: Okay, all those in favor, please raise your hand. Member Bugeja: Aye. Chair Marks: And Michael Bugeja votes 'aye'. That is a unanimous vote 10 to zero. Member Uram: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to also mention on obverse 10, if a motion would be appropriate to have the 'In God We Trust' in the Civil Rights coin, curved at the bottom, so that it's not as linear. Chair Marks: Okay. Member Olson: I will second that. Chair Marks: Okay, I'm going to give our motion recorder a moment here. Got it? Okay, so, the motion is on obverse 10, for the Civil Rights dollar coin, that the words 'In God We Trust' be curved around the lower rim of the coin. Is there any discussion? All those in favor, please 74 raise your hand. (Show of hands) Chair Marks: One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. Member Bugeja: Aye. Chair Marks: And I think I heard Michael vote 'aye'. Member Bugeja: Yes. Chair Marks: That is unanimous vote, if I recorded it correctly. Okay, thank you. All right, I will also make a motion that the cauldron appearing on the reverse, reverse two of the Civil Rights dollar coin be enlarged to give it more of a pronounced presence on the design. Member Wastweet: I'd like to second that. Chair Marks: It's been moved and seconded. there any discussion on that motion? Member Jansen: I think actually having it lends to the severity, the strength, the power flames, and so, I would encourage if it is enlarged, that it not be enlarged so far become the center of gravity of the flame. Is small of the to be as to Chair Marks: As the one who made the motion, that is certainly not my intent. I think it's just to make it a little larger, so that it's not missed and it's understood that it's a cauldron. Certainly, I believe that the three flames need to be the focal point for the design, and that is the intent with which the motion is made. Any further discussion? Mr. Everhart: Gary, at the risk of going back to the baseball, when I did a little design for that, I've done one for the -- 75 Chair Marks: Okay. Mr. Everhart: -- flame and the -- just so you get an idea of the size, it's not a lot, but I think it gives it more of a stability and makes it look like there is a chalice area that is holding it. Chair Marks: Okay, we will pause for a moment, so each member can get a look at this. Member Wastweet: Yes, I think that's perfect. brings in the balance of the elements. It Chair Marks: Yes, that's it. You nailed it. I'm holding this motion on the table until people can get a look at this. Michael Bugeja, I'm sorry we can't share this with you, but Don Everhart has created a vision of a somewhat larger cauldron that really looks pretty awesome. So, okay, so, the motion is on the table to enlarge the cauldron, and as the member who made that motion, I would indicate to you that what Don just passed around to us is my intention with that motion. So, all those in favor, please raise your hand. (Show of hands) Member Bugeja: Aye. Chair Marks: That's a unanimous vote. Thank you very much. Okay, is there any other business related to the programs that we've reviewed this morning? Member Wastweet: Gary? Chair Marks: Heidi? Member Wastweet: Who was it that suggested on the same number two reverse, that the letters could be incused in that ring? That was you? 76 Chair Marks: No, that was me. That was me. Member Wastweet: That was you? Do you want to make a motion to that? Chair Marks: You know, thank you for following up on that. I think so. Do you want to make that motion? Member Wastweet: motion. I'll go ahead and make that Chair Marks: All right. Member Jansen: State it again, please. Member Wastweet: The motion is on Civil Rights reverse number two, to incuse the curved letters into that band. Chair Marks: coin. Around the entire perimeter of the Member Wastweet: Right, raise the band and incuse the letters in that band. Member Jansen: Got it. Chair Marks: Yes. Member Bugeja: Second. Mr. Everhart: Keep the texture on the border. Member Wastweet: Yes. Mr. Everhart: Just a real light texture. Chair Marks: Okay, all right. Yes, right. Okay, the motion is on the table to raise the perimeter band around reverse number two for the Civil Rights dollar coin, and then incuse the letters. So, is there -Member Bugeja: Second. Chair Marks: It's been moved and seconded. Is 77 there any -- so, the motion was Heidi. The second, Mike Olson. Okay, any further discussion? please raise your hand. All those in favor, (Show of hands) Member Bugeja: Aye. Chair Marks: Motion carries unanimously. Is there anything further for the programs we looked at this morning? FY13 Annual Report Okay, thank you very much. At this point, we will go ahead and look at our fiscal year 2013 report. There were some materials that I had sent out to the membership on this matter, under Tab 10 in your packet. If you have that ready, what I wanted to do to facilitate this discussion is to go through our fiscal year 2012 report, and kind of use it as a launch pad for what we want to do next year for fiscal 2013. I'll just kind of go through the format, as it's laid out in the report itself. If you look at item two in our fiscal 2012 report, it speaks of circulating commemorative, and the last report, we recommended the American Liberty commemorative coinage program. The Committee is on record in a very strong way of supporting that. It's my assumption that the Committee would want to keep that in this next annual report, and I'm just going to move through some of these, if you'd like to stop and talk about it, please stop me. The next item under circulating commemorative's is our recommendation for 2014 concerning the 50th anniversary of the Kennedy half-dollar. 78 Our recommendation there was to issue a 0.999 fine bullion version of the coin based on some subsequent discussion, and I'm not sure that the Mint can actually do 0.999 fine. If the Committee wishes to keep that recommendation, we may want to discuss whether we simply go with the 90 percent silver version of the coin. Is there any discussion on that? First of all, do we want to leave this item in the report? Member Scarinci: I honestly think that, you know, metal, that composition is beyond the scope of the CCAC. I think our job, our mission is design, not metallic content. Chair Marks: All right, that's a legitimate point. Member Moran: Gary, in principle I agree with Donald, but in terms of practicality, if you want to ever get to a high relief, you've got to at least get the sterling silver, which is 0.925, and 0.999 is an easier metal to strike up, and that's the way it is. Chair Marks: Yes, still, I think Donald's point is a good one, and I'm sure the attorney would -- you know, he's nodding his head at me. If the attorney would -- Mr. Weinman would agree with me. Mr. Weinman: This question has come up before. Our position in the past has been yes, that unless there is a clear nexus between the two, that the Committee's recommendation should stick to theme and design. Chair Marks: Okay, so, if there is nothing further to consider on that, I'll consider that we got away with it last year, and we'll just take it out of this next report. I think we made our point. 79 Member Olson: I'd like to make a point. Chair Marks: Yes, go ahead. Member Olson: I think if we submit this -- I think that this would be a significant benefit for the collectors and it would speak to the design that for these 2014 half-dollars, that the Mint mark be placed on the reverse, as it was in 1964, the only year that that has taken place before the Mint marks were removed. It would be a real tip of the hat to the 50th anniversary and I believe it would be very much appreciated by the collectors. Chair Marks: Okay, I believe that bears to the design, where the Mint mark is placed. Member Jansen: I would second that thought. I think that is akin to the VDB on the discussion we had on the 2009 penny. It's akin to really celebrating the anniversary. Chair Marks: Okay, with that then, is there any need for further discussion on that or can we move ahead on understanding the consensus on that point? Okay, that's how I'll take the silence. Okay, is there any other item that we might want to talk about, related to circulating commemorative's? Member Bugeja: Gary? Chair Marks: Go ahead, Michael. Member Bugeja: The postal service airmail one for next year, of course, that's 2018. Chair Marks: We're talking about circulating commemorative's and in a moment, we're going to go on to the -Member Bugeja: Okay, I'm sorry. 80 Chair Marks: -- which I think is your item, Michael. Member Bugeja: I'm sorry, Gary. Chair Marks: No problem. Member Bugeja: I apologize. Chair Marks: Is there any further discussion about circulating commemorative's? Okay, that does take us down to the Section 3 of our report, numismatic commemorative's. As you undoubtedly are aware, some of the programs that we might otherwise recommend have already been filled with Acts of Congress. So, at this point, the slots, if you will, that are open for us to make recommendations would be 2016, which last year, we had a recommendation for the 90th anniversary of the establishment of U.S. Route 66 and I'm going to go through the whole list, and then we can circle back and talk about any of these. Twenty-seventeen is an open slot, and last year, we recommended the 150th anniversary sesquicentennial of the acquisition of the Alaska Territory in 1867, and then with this new report, we have two open slots for recommendations and to date, I have heard recommendations or have put them forward myself, for three. We have two that we want to most likely make. So, out of those three so far, there is a commemoration. We'll have each member talk about these, who have brought these forward, but a commemoration of, I believe it's the centennial of the U.S. Airmail Service. There is the 100th anniversary of the end of World War I, and then there is the issue of fallen firefighters, which we've talked about before. So, with that, I think if we move chronologically through this, maybe that is the best way to 81 approach this. Twenty-sixteen, would there be any feel that we'd want to do something different than the 90th anniversary of Route 66, and if you want to speak in favor of Route 66, please go ahead. Member Olson: Since that was my motion last year, I will speak in favor briefly. I think there is a lot of merit there. Since the editorial was published, it is gaining a little bit of traction. So, I think just in the sense of continuity, I would make a motion that we leave that in place and see if it gains success. Chair Marks: At this point, to save motions, unless there is motion to do something different, let's just consider something established, unless we want to do something different. Is there a desire to move into a different direction? Member Scarinci: alternative to this? Did you say there was an Chair Marks: Not necessarily. I mean, the U.S. Airmail and World War I, which have been suggested for 2018, are date-specific. The only one that is not date-specific would be fallen firefighters. But as the one bringing that forward, I'm not advocating that that be used to displace something else, but it's not a year date-specific commemoration. So, unless there is some direct desire to do something for 2016, other than Route 66, then I'd like to move to 2017. Is there -- do we want to talk about doing something else? Okay, so, we go down to 2017. As I said, we recommended the 150th anniversary of the acquisition the Alaska Territory. Any desire to do something different there? 82 Okay, we'll go down to 2018. Michael Bugeja, are you prepared to talk about the Airmail proposal? Member Bugeja: Yes, I am, Gary, if you would like me to. Chair Marks: Why don't you go ahead? Member Bugeja: Okay, the proposal for this commemorative is about the 100th anniversary of U.S. Airmail Service, and they assumed service from the U.S. Army. The interesting thing about this particular centennial is that I am trying to tie this to the U.S. Postal Service. It employs 574,000 workers. It's the third largest U.S. civilian employer, behind the Federal Government and Walmart. We have just heard again that the Postmaster General has reintroduced five-day mail service. The problem with cancelling that service is that it not only affects the Post Office, it affects rural areas in Iowa, for instance, but most of all, the cancellation of that service affects newspapers, community newspapers, rural newspapers, who will not be able to mail by special postal rate, their products. What I wanted to make particularly clear is that many journalism organizations are dead-set against the cancellation of Saturday mail service. The proposal that I have reminds everybody that this tradition of Saturday mail service was introduced by the first U.S. Postmaster General Benjamin Franklin. He really understood the need for the mail and the mail as the deliverer of information, particularly his own newspapers. So, what I am proposing here is also extraordinarily lucrative for the U.S. Mint. If we could just step back for a second, and consider that the distribution outlets are in every town from towns of 200 to 300, 83 to Metropolis. The Post Office now sells products from China. I'll give you an example of that. At least the Post Office here in Ames, Iowa has these U.S. postal bags that you can buy to put groceries, so that you don't have to recycle, and those are made in China, and it's an embarrassment to have products that the Post Office is selling, in addition to stamps, that do not represent the United States and the courageous airmail service of 1918 and forward. My proposal also chronicles how there were 94 forced landings in the inaugural year. This just speaks the dedication of the Post Office. It also is tied into Benjamin Franklin and journalism and information and particularly, in rural areas, with the distribution in every particular town, and 574,000 postal workers. Can you imagine if you walked into a Post Office, and it said, "Buy a silver coin from the United States and invest in Saturday mail service." I think you'll sell out immediately. That's all, Gary. Thank you for the time and opportunity. I appreciate it. Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. intriguing proposal. That's a very The next two proposals, I've brought forward, and I'll just cover these as quickly as I can. We're scheduled for our lunch break at 12:30 p.m., with some important business right when we get back after lunch, which I'm going to address before we recess here. But so, I'm going to -- you know, I'm going to try to make this brief, and I'm going to ask everyone else to consolidate your thoughts, and let's just get this done and get out of here for lunch on time. 84 The first one I want to address is the fallen firefighters. You know that I've had this recommendation for you in past years. It's been in some of our annual reports. I want to make sure you're aware that there is a National Fallen Firefighters Memorial in Maryland. It's been -- it was established by an Act of Congress in 1992. When they began building the memorial, they began collecting names of firefighters who have fallen in the line of duty since 1981 to date, with the 19 hotshot firefighters that were just recently lost from the Arizona team, we're at nearly 3,600 individuals, just since 1981, first responders on the fire side that have fallen in protecting you and I and the Nation. I think as coin collectors, most of you are aware that in 1997 there was a commemorative silver dollar issued to honor the National Police Officers Memorial, which is located right here in the Capitol City. I would ask, in putting this recommendation forward, that the same recognition and honor be given to those fallen firefighters and their families and the communities. I don't have to talk a lot about 9/11, to have understood the significance of the lives lost there of those first responders. I just think it's high-time, especially with the loss of these 19 individuals here just recently, that we honor these men and women who put their lives on the line when they go to work each day, to protect us and keep us safe. They're the ones that come running when you have a heart attack. They're the ones who come running when your house is on fire. They're the ones that come running when a loved one needs to be rescued. 85 So, I think that we simply need to do this commemorative. If we don't put it in this year's report, it won't go away from my lips. I'll bring it back to you next year. So, with that, I just would urge your consideration for that program. It is not date-specific, and if the Committee believes that with the -- with two other date-specific programs for 2018, that you want to go with those, I'll understand that, but I would like some affirmation that we are sensitive to this issue and we will consider it in the future. The next program I want to talk about is the World War I centennial. The end of the War, besides a circulating commemorative, which I think most of us are familiar with, which was the peace dollar, this Nation has never recognized those individuals who fought in that War, Americans who were involved. We have never recognized them, as we have time and again, other conflicts and the sacrifices other individuals have made in other conflicts. So, what I want to propose to you for 2018 is somewhat unique. If you are familiar with the history of the peace dollar, you know that it's credited with its genesis from the ANA, and from the Numismatist periodical that I think most of us are familiar with. Conversation began that we needed to commemorate the peace that came following World War I, and to honor those who sacrificed and who served in that conflict, and out of that came the peace dollar. So, although I would not normally recommend we resurrect an old design, I'm going to at this point recommend that, along with, and this would be a two silver dollar program, so, we'd have a 2018 striking of the peace dollar in high relief, and then we would have a modern design, commemorating the centennial and recognizing the end or the peace that came 100 years ago. 86 So, it would be kind of looking at the end of the War, at the time that it ended, with the re-issue of the peace dollar and then, a modern commemoration, a two coin set. I think from a collector point of view, it would be a home run. If you remember when the buffalo nickel was issued in 2001 as a silver dollar, the sales of that were off the chart. There was high collector interest in that, both in uncirculated and proof. So, I put that before you as a recommendation. So, we need to deal with the three that we have in front of us, and if there is a fourth, make yourself known. Member Olson: I'd like to speak in support of Gary's recommendations. Gary has been gracious enough over the years, to allow the firefighter proposal to be moved around, to accommodate other date-specific proposals. I think now it is time to give the firefighters their due, and put it down as a recommendation of the Committee. As Gary stated, I was thinking the same thing as he was talking. Firefighters are much -- very similar to the military. They go running in when everybody is running away, and we all know what they do. I don't need to repeat it here. Very deserving group of individuals and I believe they should be noted as such on the American coinage. The other proposal of Gary's regarding the peace dollar, what an exciting proposal. When you take a look back at the Morgan dollar series, it was suspended in 1904, nobody ever thought they'd make them again. When they needed more silver dollars, they re-did one in 1921. Makes for an interesting set. There is a gap of time there. 87 What an exciting proposal for collectors to be able to continue their peace dollar set with the current issue peace dollar, done in high relief, as it was back in 1921. Can't say enough good about that. I'm definitely a buyer, and charge me what you want. I'm going to buy one. That is the numismatic side of the World War I, but the just due of that is certainly, those folks have never been commemorated. We've had commemorations of other Military battles, Military groups, Wars, but for some reason, that group never has been commemorated, and while there is no longer anyone that is alive today, that can enjoy being celebrated for the fact that they served during that time, that is no reason to not do it. So, my support, even though Michael Bugeja, you've got some really good ideas there for the Airmail coin, possibly that could be done at some other point. But the two proposals that we discussed, I think are -- deserve merit. Chair Marks: Just let me add that just for the record, that there is a Bill currently introduced in Congress, to commemorate World War I. It's not structured exactly as I've recommended a program, but it's HR-2366, if you want to look it up. Also, I'll just say again that, you know, my heart is in the firefighter proposal. I work -- I am the -- I work with those guys as a city manager. Those people are on my team. These firefighters, they're on my team, and what they do for us is very important, and it's an honor that is due them. I understand we have three proposals. I think Michael Bugeja's is a very good proposal. It's datespecific. I think he is right about the sales that would come off of that. So, I really want the Committee to make the right choice this year, and if that is that you want to put 88 the firefighters aside and bring them back for next year's report, I will understand that. So, I want you to make the right decision. make it just because I'm bringing it forward. Don't Member Moran: Gary, I've got a question for Greg. Greg, on the peace dollar part of this proposal, do you need authorization from Congress to resurrect that design from 2018? Mr. Weinman: We would not need permission from Congress, because for a number of reasons. Number one, it's been more than 25 years since we've had a current design. But it would be something that we'd want to vet for political reasons. Member Moran: When you say vet, does that mean incorporate it in the Bill? Mr. Weinman: Not necessarily. Member Moran: Okay. Mr. Weinman: But it's something that we would want to -- we wouldn't do unilaterally. Member Moran: Okay, I don't want to wax eloquent on that. Most of us -- I have a 21-piece in my collection and it's a beautiful design, and uncirculated, when it's in high relief. It's basically a pie pan, when it's not, but I can imagine what it would be, if you did the mirrored surface in the field and the frosted proof, and most of us don't own a proof, very few of them around, and all of them are what I call matte proofs. We did not do the traditional proof with the 21-piece dollar, and it would be spectacular. Chair Marks: You know, Greg, your comment really intrigues me. 89 Does that mean that a re-striking of the peace dollar for 2018 is not necessarily falling into the requirement of two commemorative programs? Mr. Weinman: record -- I'm not sure I want to go on the Chair Marks: Is this like directly -Mr. Weinman: I am not sure I want to go on the record with a legal opinion right now. Chair Marks: Okay. Mr. Weinman: But there are ways -- the way the -the way it's drafted, possibly not. Chair Marks: I mean, does this fall in the same -possibly fall in the same category of Director Moy's striking in 2009 -Mr. Weinman: Yes. Chair Marks: -- of the Saint Gauden's – Mr. Weinman: Yes. Chair Marks: -- twenty-dollar? Mr. Weinman: A little different legal structure, based on the way 31 USC is structured, but potentially, but not -- I mean, it's something I am not -- I don't want to be conclusive in this meeting. Chair Marks: Okay, would it be -Mr. Weinman: But it's something I'd be happy to look in to, if there is a direct question about it. Chair Marks: Would it be appropriate for us to include that idea in our report in a manner that is not part of the two per year program? Mr. Weinman: Let me -- if we're not -- if we're -we don't have a need to conclude it at this meeting. Chair Marks: Okay. 90 Mr. Weinman: Let me research that and at least -Chair Marks: Okay. Mr. Weinman: -- get the Committee an opinion. Chair Marks: Okay. Member Bugeja: Gary? Chair Marks: Michael Bugeja, I think you know where I am going with this. Member Bugeja: I do. I just wanted to bring up something numismatic on the peace dollar. I've been searching frantically while we're talking, but de Francisci's original peace dollar, the reverse of that showed an eagle and a broken sword. Does anyone recall that? Chair Marks: Yes. Member Wastweet: Yes. Member Bugeja: And that was refused because it was said that it made America look weak. Well, he wanted it to show that the sword was broken. I can't find it, to show you or send you a link, but it's an interesting thing to consider. That is -- nothing else, Gary. Chair Marks: Okay, you know what? I'll tell you what, I'm going to throw an idea out to the Committee, and tell me what you think of it. But given the time now, we've had a good exchange here. If you have any other comments you want to make quickly. But I'm going to suggest that we come back to the next meeting and actually make the decision on these two pre-year commemorative's. Member Scarinci: I just wanted to just to not only help out my colleague at the bar, but you know, I 91 think your original idea is right on the money, because there is a Bill in Congress now, for this. If we recommend this proposal, I think we give some fodder to House Members, you know, to include it in their Bill, and give them support. So, I think you know, rather than to go through, you know, can we, should we, could we, it's in Congress now. I mean, and if we can do it this way, and get it through Congress the way you propose it, I think your original idea is perfect. Chair Marks: And you're right, the Bill is out there. In fact, it's actually been put forward. The idea was brought to Congress by an associate of the ANA. I've been in contact with that person and they would very much covet our support of the idea, and they have indicated some flexibility in how the program is put together. It's not put together the way we're talking about it in the Bill. But this is just a House Bill. companion at this point. There is no Senate So, any other comments and -- it is my intention that we should come back at the next meeting and make some decisions, and not make them here. Erik? Member Jansen: I think that's a good way of handling this. It will give us an opportunity to move all this together. But I also want to say, I like the proposal on the firefighters. Chair Marks: Okay, we've reached the time for our lunch break. I'm going to -- we have an important visitor immediately upon our coming back after lunch. Congresswoman Sewell. So, and she will have limited time to address us, so, more than ever, I'm going to ask that the Committee please, out of respect for the 92 Congresswoman, let's be back here in our seats at 1:15 p.m. Let's give her, her chance to be on the record for us. It's an honor that she would come here and share here recommendations with us. So, again, please be back here promptly at 1:15 p.m. As soon as -- you know, if I have a majority or a quorum in the room, I'm going to go ahead and get the meeting started. But with that, we are recessed for lunch. (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the record at 12:30 p.m. and resumed at 1:30 p.m.) Chair Marks: Back on the record. Member Bugeja: Yes, I'm here. Chair Marks: Michael Bugeja, could you put your phone on mute -Member Bugeja: Yes, I'm here. Chair Marks: -- when you're not talking? Member Bugeja: What was that? Chair Marks: Can you please put your phone on -or your phone on mute when you're not talking? Member Bugeja: Sure. Chair Marks: Thank you. 16th Street Baptist Church Review Director Peterson: My name is Dick Peterson. I'm the Acting Director of the United States Mint, and I have the honor and privilege to welcome some special guests here to the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee meeting, and this meeting, we're considering the candidate designs for the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing victims Congressional gold metal. I have a point of personal privilege, that in my Navy 93 days, I served on the nuclear submarine the Birmingham, and in the wardroom of that ship, we had a little plaque, recognizing the victims of the bombing. It's a pleasure to have you heard. We have with us, I believe for the first time ever, a sitting Congressperson, is addressing the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee, and I am pleased to introduce Congresswoman Terri Sewell of Birmingham, Alabama. We have three members of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute with us, two of whom are sisters of two of the four little girls. Dianne Robertson Braddock, please raise your hand, and Lisa McNair, and also we have Ahmad Ward. So, there is very little that can be said. There is a lot to be said, and I'm going to let you say it, because you're going to rock. Anyway, welcome, Congresswoman Sewell. address us. Please Congresswoman Sewell: I want to thank everyone from the Mint. It's been a pleasure to work with all of you. I have to start by saying that as far as point of personal privilege, I am very new member of Congress. This is my second term. I hail from the great City of Selma, Alabama. I have the great privilege of representing the 7th Congressional District of Alabama, which includes Birmingham, Selma, parts of Tuscaloosa, “Roll Tide”, for those fans out there, and Selma, my home town. My district is most notably known as the Civil Rights District of Alabama, and I have the great pleasure of being the first African American woman, and one of two women in their own right, elected from the State of Alabama, ever. 94 Alabama never had women elected in their own right until 2010, and they got two, one Republican and one Democrat, one black and one white, and we're friends, and we have definitely changed the flavor of the Alabama delegation. I have to tell you that it is a personal note that my very first Bill to pass Congress was this Congressional Gold Metal Bill. I know that I stand on the shoulders of many, and the fact is that while I wasn't born when the bombing happened, the sacrifices that your families have made, as well as other sacrifices that have been made by so many, really forged the path upon which I now -- the journey I now take is made possible. And so, it is with great pride that the first Bill that I passed through Congress was HR-360, the bestowing of the Congressional Gold Metal on the four little girls who were victims of the bombing at 16th Street Baptist Church. So, I am honored to be with you all today. I think my heart is heavy because I know the magnitude and the importance of this gold metal, not only to the families represented here today, but to our whole city and to our whole state, and it is an honor to be before you. Not really sure of how this proceeds beyond that, but look forward to talking about the various renditions. Is that right? Okay? Director Peterson: Stay right there. your question, how do we proceed. To answer We know you're on a tight time line. You need to get back up to the Hill, and so, we would like to hear your thoughts. The Committee would like to hear your thoughts on some of the designs that we've shared with you, and what time frame are we talking about? I'm sorry? Congresswoman Sewell: So, I was presented with I guess, in your notebooks are probably the designs 95 that we were presented with, and I think that what I've talked to the family members about, and I think that all of us are in agreement, that there are several things we want to make sure that are on the coin. I think that all of us really think that having a silhouette form of the four little girls versus having an actual image of their faces is best, because in many ways, the four little girls were emblematic of the sacrifices that were made by so many. And so, having a silhouette of the faces something that we all agreed on, and so -- is (Off mic comments.) Congresswoman Sewell: So, the silhouette that is currently here, I think all of us thought was fine, although it would be great if this silhouette looked like four little girls instead of having sort of bigger girls, and so that we would know that it was girls, little girls, not, you know, they were young children, not adults. And so, but as far as the hands -- the joining of the four hands, we thought was very special, and so, our only thought about this silhouette was that it should be more visually like children. I think with respect to what is said around it, we really didn't like the saying around it. We thought saying, "Pivotal in the struggle for equality, pivotal in the struggle for equality," was more of a stronger statement on the coin. And so, having their names on the front side of the coin, we thought was -- it was important. We talked about having their names go around the coin and the saying in the center of the coin. I think for me, everybody needs to understand the flower. So, I wouldn't have a flower there, but I think that -- looking at this one, the silhouette of it is what we wanted to capture, not exactly this same 96 silhouette, but a silhouette similar. Then on the back side of the coin, if we could point to reverse 06(a), I guess. Yes, okay, that's it, yes. Okay, and so, on the reverse, we thought it was important to have Act of Congress 2013 at the top. We liked the side view of the church, especially the fact that you have this, and it's very reminiscent of how the church looks today, and we liked the four girls. We actually said, "In memory of four girls killed in the bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church," instead of just four girls. We said 'in memory of', and it was more over to the side. The Act of Congress would be at the top, and at the bottom, we wanted to make sure we had Birmingham, Alabama. So, the elements that we wanted to capture were silhouette on the front. We liked the saying 'Pivotal in the Struggle for Equality, Pivotal in the Struggle for Equality." We think it's important that we have the date, the place, the state and the city, Birmingham, Alabama, and Act of Congress, and so, we thought on the back, having something that says, "In Memory of the Four Girls Killed in the Bombing" would sort of be able to address the actual -- what was pivotal about that, about the struggle for equality. Am I adequately reflecting everyone's thoughts? Okay, so, you want me to be more specific. So, Act of Congress at the top, the four -- the "In Memory of Four Girls", because this would be scaled back slightly. Still a side view, still a side view scaled back slightly, sort of like -- is there an example we could show them? (Off mic comments.) Director Peterson: Don could talk a little bit about 97 that. Congresswoman Sewell: Sure. Director Peterson: To make the church a little smaller, so there is more -Mr. Everhart: along -- Yes, you wanted to put more text Congresswoman Sewell: I can't draw. Member Stevens-Sollman: Excuse me, if you look at reverse number 10, it might have your desired size. Congresswoman Sewell: Right, so, scale that, so that the words would go here. Act of Congress would go at the very top, not here, but up at the top, and Birmingham, Alabama would go down here. So, the words, instead of having this big old flower, the words would be "In Memory of the Four Girls Killed in the Bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church". If you identify the church in this part, Act of Congress at the top, Birmingham, Alabama. Does that make sense? Mr. Everhart: Yes, we can do that. No problem. Congresswoman Sewell: Okay, this is the view of the church that we want. Mr. Everhart: Okay. Congresswoman Sewell: And I guess -- okay, so, I don't know if I've -- have I been pretty clear on the front side? (Off mic comments.) Congresswoman Sewell: So, can we go back to obverse one, I guess, the very first one? So, just to be clear, we wanted a silhouette, one that looks more like this, the little girl silhouette. 98 We thought these looked more like adults. So, to the artist, Mr. Everhart, is that possible, that you can have four -- a silhouette of girls, of little girls -Mr. Everhart: Sure. Congresswoman Sewell: -- not adults? Mr. Everhart: Yes, we can do that. Congresswoman Sewell: Okay, so, and then we thought instead of -- did you want "Pivotal in the Struggle of Equality" across like that, with the names up there? Did you want the names? I personally like the names around it. I do like that. So, I personally thought that the names around the coin looked better. So, if you look at -Member Jansen: Obverse 11. Congresswoman Sewell: Yes. (Off mic comments.) Congresswoman Sewell: So, the names going around the outer, like 10, I'll just show 10, and therefore, if you go back to the number one again, instead of having the names in black, have "Pivotal in the Struggle for Equality" across here. Mr. Everhart: We can do all of that. Congresswoman Sewell: No flowers, please. Member Scarinci: Congresswoman? Congresswoman Sewell: Yes. Member Scarinci: two? What did you think of obverse Congresswoman Sewell: I personally really liked it, a lot, but the family members liked number one 99 slightly better, and you know, look, I have learned in the art of legislating, it's about making sausage, and so, you know, I actually really like number two, a lot. But I can only speak for me. What was your thought about number two? About this? Ms. McNair: I actually initially liked number two, but I'd say that I agree with Dianne, what I didn't like about it is, I like the silhouette better, than the actual girls. The problem was, there was no definition, not much definition. It's not much difference in the way the silhouettes look here. Congresswoman Sewell: Well, that is the same for Ms. Braddock: So, it really was not too much of definition or difference. Congresswoman Sewell: Yes. Member Olson: We've got two obverses here that are numbered the same. This is one of the two that's number 15. I guess we probably, 16 -- it's the one with the broken window. Was there any sentiment towards that particular -- keep going. Keep going. Right there. Was there any sentiment towards that particular design? Congresswoman Sewell: I personally didn't like the reference -- this big part of -- is that Jesus or something coming out? I thought having the front side be spiritual in some way was a good thing, meaning, the glass -- stained-glass window type thing that evokes spirituality was a good thing. But I didn't really like the angel coming out in the -I didn't like that. Member Olson: So, the concept of this might have 100 some interest, but just the -- maybe the mechanics of the hand? Congresswoman Sewell: Right, or more like obverse 13. Can we look at obverse 13? That is the stained -- you see sort of the stained glass part of it, which is much -- to me, invokes spirituality, and I like that because I thought, you know, having the silhouette or a form of the four girls would -some of it connoted spirituality. I mean, I didn't like this too much. I thought this would be more -- but that was my thought on that. So, as far as going back to the one that you had, I didn't like the hand of God. I didn't like that, and I thought that the kids looked more Anglo than they did black, in my opinion. Can we go back to the one that you -- 15, I guess it's really 16, yes. So, I thought that they were not representative of little black girls. It looks to me, more Anglo, yes. Are there others that -- and I know that I personally didn't like the “love that forgives”. I know that that was the sermon, that the Pastor was preaching that day. But when I think of the bombing of the church, I don't think of love. It was not an act of -- I don't think of that. I think of reconciliation. I think of -but I don't think of, you know, love. So, that is why I didn't choose any of the ones that said the -- but “love to forgive”. I didn't get that. I think it's important that it's a struggle, pivotal in the struggle for equality and not justice, because frankly, justice was delayed, right? I mean, the fact of the matter is that we didn't get the last of the Ku Klux Klan members until, you know, 2004 or something. So, you know, and this happened in 1963. So, I thought that it was important not to say 101 'justice' but 'equality', because that is really what the civil -- that's a portion of what the Civil Rights Movement was about. Any other questions? Mr. Norton: Chairman. First of all, Gary Marks is the Congresswoman Sewell: Yes. Mr. Norton: Distinguished panel here, appointed by members of Congress and leadership, and also by the Secretary of Treasury. So, I wanted to recognize Gary Marks and his -Congresswoman Sewell: I want to recognize all of you. Thank you for your service. This is awesome. I couldn't imagine having the -- you know, I'll have to look at all these different things, and having to choose. But I just think that if we can keep elements of the imagery of the four girls and making sure that they look like four little black girls, I think is important, and that they look like children, that they were, and not adults was a very important one. You know, the family members felt very strongly that it should say "Pivotal in the Struggle for Equality", and I'm -- you know, so, I'll compromise. So, that is fine with me. Member Stevens-Sollman: Excuse me, but obverse number 10 what -- okay, there you go. Congresswoman Sewell: Ten? Member Stevens-Sollman: Nine, on nine, I'm sorry, nine. What is your feeling about the silhouettes here? Are these more to your definition of what -Congresswoman Sewell: Yes. Member Stevens-Sollman: -- the silhouette should be? 102 Congresswoman Sewell: Yes. Member Stevens-Sollman: Okay, yes. Congresswoman Sewell: like -- I mean, I think it's more Member Stevens-Sollman: Yes, they look -- they're smaller in age, yes. Congresswoman Sewell: Yes, I agree. I absolutely agree. Member Stevens-Sollman: Okay, thank you. Congresswoman Sewell: Don't like the -Member Stevens-Sollman: No, no, no. Congresswoman Sewell: -- the Liberty Statue. Member Stevens-Sollman: My thought -- I know that I'm probably speaking out of turn right now, but since we have you. If we had something of obverse 15, which is the leaded glass, and we had these little girls walking into that situation of the bombed out glass, is that something your constituents would feel more comfortable with? Congresswoman Sewell: something like that. I would love to see Member Stevens-Sollman: You know, I don't think these little girls belong in that. Congresswoman Sewell: No. Member Stevens-Sollman: But I do like the fact that it's representing, in an abstract way, the church. (Off the record comments) Congresswoman Sewell: She is not saying -- can we go back to 15, obverse 15? 103 Member Stevens-Sollman: No. Congresswoman Sewell: Yes. No? Member Stevens-Sollman: Sixteen. Congresswoman Sewell: That's it, that's it. So, I agree that this is way too busy. Like, you have -having that Jesus, I don't like that, all right. We know that we don't like the flower. But I don't think if you -- I don't know if I would mind if it looked -- if the glass was like obverse 13, meaning really look like a -Member Stevens-Sollman: A glass. Congresswoman Sewell: window -- -- like a stained glass Member Stevens-Sollman: Right. Congresswoman Sewell: -- versus a shattered, whatever is going on here. Yes, I don't know if I -you know, I just think it needs to be less busy. It needs to be clean, yes. Member Stevens-Sollman: I personally like the silhouettes of number nine, because this -- it's small and simple, and if we could impose those silhouettes on some other -- because then we have the little girls, and then the obverse -- the reverse can have more information. It's just something to consider. Thank you. Thank you. Chair Marks: Okay, are there any other members who might like to ask the Congresswoman a question? Heidi? Member Wastweet: Some time ago we had a phone meeting with some of the representatives from the church, and we talked about these very topics, before we started designing these at all. I don't know if you've read a transcript of that 104 meeting. Congresswoman Sewell: I have not. Member Wastweet: Okay, in that meeting, we talked about the church would like to represent the four girls somehow, but they talked about how the girls represented more, a bigger meaning. It wasn't just about those four, but they really wanted to convey the message of what they represented symbolically -Congresswoman Sewell: Yes. Member Wastweet: -about that, the senselessness of it, and how difficult it would be to portray portraits of them. So, what we suggested in that meeting is, we would represent them symbolically, like with flowers. Flowers are very innocent and delicate, but yet they have a life, and that life comes back every Spring. And so, that is why we encouraged the artist to do some other topics, rather than trying to do actual physical literal girls. So, we suggested using the names, so that those particular girls are remembered, but yet, their tragedy was depicted symbolically with the flowers. So, that is why we have some of these -Congresswoman Sewell: Okay. Member Wastweet: -- images with flowers, because like you said, each of these silhouette images, they have problems, like you were talking about how the sideways ones, they weren't distinct enough, and these are not young enough. Congresswoman Sewell: These are much better than the first ones, that were not young enough. Member Wastweet: And there was another one with the doves, they're very beautifully drawn, but they're not the right girls. They're different girls, 105 and so, we run into a little stumbling block with each one. One of our challenges, also not to be ignored, is the time frame. Congresswoman Sewell: Yes. Member Wastweet: We're on a very tight time crunch, and all of these discussions are taking this from this and this from another, and like Don said, we can do those things, but maybe not on the time line that we're trying to achieve. So, if there is any wiggle room on that time line, we could push back, we go back to the artist and do some of these things that you suggest, or we could work with what we have. But I'm afraid that making too many suggestions -and we run into in the Committee often, is we try to avoid this design by committee, and we try to work with what we have, or we say, "This is not working," and we go back to the drawing board and let go of that deadline. Congresswoman Sewell: Well, just my thought. I personally didn't -- I didn't get the symbolism of the flower, and personally, I was -- I didn't -- I don't think that -- I'll have to -- I have like four degrees, and so, if I didn't get that, I don't think a lot of people will get that either. Member Wastweet: And like you said -Congresswoman Sewell: So, all I asked is that -Member Wastweet: Like you said with the daises, it didn't make sense because there weren't four of them. There has to be four flowers, to represent with the names. Congresswoman Sewell: I don't like the flowers. Member Wastweet: Okay. 106 Congresswoman Sewell: I didn't get that. Member Wastweet: Okay. Congresswoman Sewell: I would rather have figures that really don't look like all the little girls than -- I mean, I guess with the -- I understand -- I want to respect the time frame, because we know that you're pushing to try to get it so that we have a coin that we can present before the actual 50th anniversary, which is on September 15th of this year. Member Wastweet: So, that is an important date. Congresswoman Sewell: I get that that is the driving force and should be. So, having said that, if I -- I would -- can we go back to obverse one? One-A? One-A? So, if we had to live with something, then having "Pivotal in the Struggle for Equality" up there, can we get rid of this? The names would be like this or this, I guess. I mean, that is -(Off the record comments) Congresswoman Sewell: They have one with the names around it. What she's saying is that for him to go and sketch something differently, would take time, is what they're saying. I like that. Can you do that? Participant: You got it. (Off the record comments) Congresswoman Sewell: So, they haven't called votes yet, have they? They did call? Okay, all right. So, they've called votes. So, how much time would it take to do that, Mr. Everhart? 107 Mr. Everhart: We could have the artist revise that probably in a day or two. Congresswoman Sewell: So, it wouldn't take us that far off of our time frame? Mr. Everhart: I don't think so. Congresswoman appreciative. Sewell: We would be most Mr. Everhart: Yes, I mean, the obverse is a fairly simple sculpt. You know, we can do that really quickly. The reverse is going to be a little bit more involved because of the building. But it is still -- it is not going to be a huge task, I don't think. Congresswoman Sewell: appreciative. Well, we would be most Mr. Everhart: We'll give it a try. Congresswoman Sewell: I know that we're up against a deadline, and I want to just again, on behalf of all of us here, thank you for listening to our suggestions and for doing this in a timely fashion, so that we would have a coin ready for presentation by the 15th anniversary. Chair Marks: Congresswoman, thank you so much for coming and sharing your thoughts. Much appreciated and very helpful. Thank you. Congresswoman Sewell: Thank you. Director Peterson: And Congresswoman, I'd just like to thank you again, and the men and women of the United States Mint are very excited about this program, and we commit to get this time line met, and so, we're going to deliver a beautiful coin, and we'd like to thank you for your passion, which is obvious, and for sponsoring legislation. It's certainly something that the country needs to remember and commemorate in this way. 108 Congresswoman Sewell: Thank you. Director Peterson: Thank you for being here today. Congresswoman Sewell: Thank you. (Off the record comments) Chair Marks: All right, okay, at this point, I'd like to circle back to our staff report. When the Acting Mint Director comes back in, I'll recognize him for additional comments. But in the meanwhile, April, if you could provide us your report. Ms. Stafford: Sure. Chair Marks: It would be much appreciated. Ms. Stafford: Absolutely. Chair Marks: Thank you. Ms. Stafford: Thank you. On May 24, 2013, the President signed Public Law 113-11, awarding a Congressional Gold Metal to Addie Mae Collins, Denise McNair, Carole Robertson and Cynthia Wesley, to commemorate the lives they lost 50 years ago in the bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church, an event that served as a catalyst for the Civil Rights Movement. The legislation calls for designs with suitable emblems, devices and inscriptions, and we work closely with the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute on the designs and consulted with available family members. Following the presentation of the metal in September, the metal will be given to the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute for display. So, that is the background. Did you want to go onto the designs, Mr. Chairman, or would you like to pause for the Acting Director? 109 Chair Marks: Acting Director, do you have additional comments? Do you have additional comments? Director Peterson: I do not. I think the process for rest of this design, from what the Congresswoman mentioned to me out in the hall, is that we want to engage with the family and the Civil Rights organizations in Birmingham, as much as possible as we go forward and comment on this. Chair Marks: Sure, you bet. you proceed? Ms. Stafford: Thank you. obverse designs. Okay, so, why don't So, we'll start with the Obverse one and one-A, these designs feature the silhouette of four young girls representing those killed on September 15, 1963. Their names are incused across the raised image of the figures, two daisies symbols of innocence and youth are beside their names. The obverse one inscription 'People All Over the World Turned Around' is paraphrased from the song 'Birmingham Sunday', a piece written about the bombing. Obverse one-A's inscription "Pivotal in the Struggle for Equality' was recommended by the sisters of the two girls. Obverse one-A, as we've discussed, is the liaison's preferred design, and I think we have received additional information from Representative Sewell, which included the suggestion to remove the daisies on one-A, perhaps place the names of the girls around the perimeter and move the inscription 'Pivotal in the Struggle for Equality' into the middle of the design. Obverse two, this design features the silhouettes of four girls with the names along the edge. This was the CFA's preferred design for the obverse 110 candidates. Obverse three features four red roses symbolizing the martyrdom of the girls to social justice. The single word 'sacrifice' is inscribed at the top and the girls names are placed over the stems of the roses. In obverse four, the four young victims of the bombing are shown in silhouette, climbing the steps to the 16th Street Baptist Church. Obverse five shows a little girl emblematic of all four of the girls who died on September 15, 1963, about to enter the 16th Street Baptist Church. She clutches her doll here, symbolizing the innocence of youth. Obverses six, seven and eight features four young girls faces, juxtaposing the sweetness and innocence of the victims, with the horror of the bombing, as represented by the broken glass. In design seven and eight, the girls are also seen in silhouette at the bottom of the designs. In design eight, stars shine in their hearts. So, here we had six, seven and eight. Obverses nine and ten, Liberty and Icon of Freedom and Welcoming Spirit is depicted with a tear running down her face, while the four girls are seen in silhouette at the bottom of the design. This is nine and 10. In obverse 11, four young girls, approximately the same ages of those killed at 16th Street Baptist Church release a dove, a symbol of peace and healing. 'The Love that Forgives' is inscribed in the bottom of the design, the title of the sermon scheduled for the morning for September 15, 1963. Obverse 12. This design features an empty pew covered with debris from the blast, used by the artist to reference the children through their 111 conspicuous absence. On the pew is a doll, bereft of its owner, included by the artist to underscore the victim's passing in an allegorical and hopefully non-graphical manner. The design is inscribed with the girls names and September 15, 1963. Obverse 13 depicts close-up silhouettes of the four little girls in front of a stained glass window and below, an open scroll bearing the inscription '16th Street Baptist Church' and 'September 15, 1963'. The artist made the girls images translucent to convey their tragic fate. Obverse 14 depicts four young girls with heads bowed and hands folded in a position of prayer. September 15, 1963 is incused in a single camilla bud, the state flower of Alabama, and marks the location of the event. The inscription 'This Was the Awakening' is a phrase used by Walter Cronkite, when he was interviewed for the Spike Lee documentary on the event, a sentiment also echoed by the flowering camilla bud. Obverse 15 shows four girls entering the 16th Street Baptist Church. A bouquet of four camilla buds encircle the image, symbolic of the four lives cut short. Obverse 16, four young girls are shown walking to church on the morning of September 15th. The background shows the stained glass window damaged in the bombing, now known as 'faceless Jesus'. The artist notes that the hands of Jesus are positioned at approximately Member Moran: 22, the time the bomb detonated. Obverse 17, this design shows four young girls in silhouette and represents the girls killed in the 16th Street Church bombing. Daisies fall over the image, 112 symbolic of innocence and youth. The names of the victims are inscribed along the border of the coin. Those are the obverse designs. the reverse designs? May I proceed to Chair Marks: Yes, please. Ms. Stafford: Reverse one and two, these designs show a graphic representation of the churches sign. The inscription 'The People Keep Singing of Freedom' is paraphrased from the song 'Birmingham Sunday'. In reverse two the shadows of daisies fall across the design, representing the youth and innocence of the four little girls. Reverse three features a stylized heart with the inscription 'Love Forgives All'. The artist notes that in this design, four diamonds, representing the four little girls, are created by the inter-lacing bands and circling the heart, and in the artist's words, binding it together with love. The heart is surrounded by two wings, conceived by the artist as a wing of comfort and protection and wing of forgiveness, and is based on the churches stained glass windows. Reverse four, five, six, six-A and seven depict various views of the 16th Street Baptist Church. So, here is four, five, six, six-A and seven, and if we could go back to six-A, this was the liaison's preferred design, and includes the recommended inscription with the addition of 'In Memory Of'. It is also the CFA's preferred reverse design, and I would note from having Representative Sewell speak to us earlier, there was suggestions about minimizing the size of the church to allow for the full inscription, again, to include 'In Memory Of', adding Act of Congress 2013, and removing the date and replacing it with Birmingham, Alabama. 113 Reverse eight. The design shows a church arch featuring the silhouette of the four little girls. The artist chose to juxtapose the ordered symmetry at the top of the composition with a violent and disorganized lower half and features the date crudely inscribed on a shard of glass. The inscription 'The Love that Forgives' is the central element of the composition being the subject of the sermon that day. Reverse nine features a view of the church with linked arms beneath, representing the subsequent awareness and advances of the Civil Rights Movement. The top of the design features the inscription 'Beacons of Light for Freedom' with four points of light in the sky, while the 'Love that Forgives' is inscribed along the bottom. Reverse 10 features a view of the church with four magnolia flowers symbolizing the four little girls. The flowers are a reference to the last stanza of Langston Hughes' poem inspired by the event, which reads, "Four little girls might be awakened some day soon by songs upon the breeze as yet unfelt among magnolia trees." Finally, reverse 11, the design's major device is four white calla lilies which are often associated with purity, beauty and innocence. The artist notes that the flowers arrangement is reminiscent of candles at a church alter. The inscription 'The Love that Forgives', the title of the sermon that was to be given that morning, it also included. We do have obverse and reverse pairings, as suggested by some of the artists, as the Committee requested. So, we can show those, as well. Chair Marks: Yes, please go ahead. 114 Ms. Stafford: All right, so here, we have obverse one and reverse one. Obverse two and reverse six. Obverse three and reverse four. Obverse four, reverse seven. Obverse five, reverse eight. Obverse eight, reverse nine. Obverse 12 and reverse 10. Obverse 13 and reverse 11, and that is all of the pairings. Mr. Chairman? Chair Marks: Thank you, April. Are there any technical questions that we'd like to get addressed? Heidi? Member Wastweet: I'm sorry, did you say what the CFA preference was for the obverse? Ms. Stafford: Yes, it was two. Member Wastweet: Thank you. Chair Marks: Others? Member Jansen: Did the CFA get a similar opportunity to debrief with the opinions from the sponsor? Ms. Stafford: They did not hear from Representative Sewell, but the information that we received from the liaisons regarding their preferences were communicated, yes. Member Jansen: So, we're to interpret the CFA's actions as comprehending, the same thing we heard today? Ms. Stafford: I wouldn't speak on that, because I did not hear Representative Sewell speak. Member Jansen: Okay. Ms. Stafford: But they did -- they did hear the liaisons preference for obverse was one-A. Member Jansen: Okay, thanks. 115 Chair Marks: Are there other technical questions? Member Jansen: One question. Is it possible to put the names around the edge? Yes, yes, as in the third side. Mr. Antonucci: It's possible. Member Jansen: But not a production approved technique at this point? Mr. Antonucci: No, we're just in the research and development on that. Member Jansen: Probably not -Chair Marks: Given that the -Member Jansen: Probably not a good idea? Chair Marks: Right, given the time line, it might not be the best, okay. Member Jansen: Never mind. Chair Marks: All right, what is being passed around to you right now is the sketch that Don did, while the Congresswoman was here. There was so much detail put to it, I asked staff to go ahead and copy this off, so you could each have this in front of you. For the purposes of our discussion, I'd like you to label the obverse number 18, and the reverse number 12. Rather than us going through a discussion where we're describing all of these changes, I want to just kind of codify them, if you will, into our discussion, along with the other designs presented to us. Okay, are there other technical questions? Okay, before we move onto our own discussion, I'd like to ask if our guests have any comments they would like to make to us? 116 (Off the record comments) Chair Marks: Are you speaking of this? Ms. McNair: Yes. Chair Marks: Okay. Ms. McNair: I think that's it. Chair Marks: Okay. (Off the record comments) Ms. McNair: Okay, I think that is better, okay. Yes, Dianne and I have done a lot of talking about what we'd like to see in this, and this does reflect quite a bit of what we discussed, just about everything. I'll go over -- is it okay if I say each thing out loud? Chair Marks: Please, go ahead. Ms. McNair: So as to make sure that she is in agreement with me and we're on the same page, because I want to respect her. On the -- well, start at the top. On the reverse, Act of Congress on the top, 2013, we've talked about that being -- because we -- she and I did, when we sat down and went on the internet and looked at a whole bunch of other ones, to see what was kind of standard, and we understood that that was standard. So, we agreed with that. Then the church being smaller like the Congress Lady said earlier today, we talked about that. We like the look of that church, but just being smaller because we had wanted the words on there about the girls, and then at the bottom, Birmingham, Alabama, so, people who would see it in your nice lobby, like you have it displayed would know where it took place, and what happened with this incident. The only that is new here, Dianne, we had four girls 117 were killed in the bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church. The Congress Lady mentioned 'In Memory of Four Girls Killed in the Bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church'. So, the words 'in memory' is the new thing on that. I don't have offense to that, but I mean, you let me know what you think about that. Ms. Braddock: My concern is that we do want to try to get this done by, you know, Sunday, September 15th, and the ones obverse 06, is what you sent us. You had already -- 06A, that you had already worked this up. So, before today, we were all in agreement with this one, and I -Participant: Excuse me, which one? Ms. Braddock: -- I do want to respect the time line, in order to get this done, and I think that is Dr. Pijeaux, who is the Chair of the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute, also is very concerned about getting the -- having the celebration year and getting the coin to Birmingham by the 15th. So, everybody until today, this is new to me, but up until today, we had all agreed on four girls were killed in the bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church, and you had this because we sent it to you. Mr. Ward: The only reason that I am here on behalf of Dr. Pijeaux is just to strongly affirm that whatever the family agrees to, we are in full support of what they family wants to see on the metal. So, whatever Ms. McNair and Ms. Braddock decide, that is where -- that is the direction that the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute would like to go with. Chair Marks: Okay, thank you very much. At this point, I think we'll go onto our Committee discussion, and the first member I'd like to recognize is Michael Bugeja, who is on the 118 telephone today. So, Michael. Member Bugeja: Thank you very much, Gary. It's quite an honor to look at all these designs and to give opinions on each one, I guess we're going to do, obverse and reverse. All of the inscriptions that were preferred by the family, of course, I want to see. I'll just talk in general about a few of the coins, so that everyone else has more of a chance to weigh in on them. I thought the preference of obverse number two, which was preferred by the CFA, as I understand, April? Ms. Stafford: That is correct. Member Bugeja: Is that correct? Looked an awful lot like our Girl Scout one, and I don't know if that makes -- I would have probably liked it more if it didn't remind me of a coin we just did. I too, had the idea of using edge lettering to make this spectacular, but I don't think the time allows us to do that. I wanted to say that it's not only in memory of, it's in celebration of their lives, however short and what awakening they arose in others. So, on some of the designs that I will not speak about, basically show aftermath of bombing or things of that nature. I like the design motif of obverse 08. The thing that concerned me about 06, 07 and 08, was the number four, and the reason I say that is, we're dealing with a lot of dates here. First of all, the date of the metal, the date of the incident, the four girls, and I'm not sure the four over-shadows the silhouettes in meaning. But that said, it is a fetching design. 119 If we go to obverse number nine and obverse number 10, I wanted to -- I would prefer 10, but I wanted to say something about personifying icons. If this -- for those who were not at the earlier -privy to the earlier conversation, we had an eagle that was personified holding the scales of justice, now, we have a statue that is crying. Not to argue in favor of this or against it, but if you would hold that icon of Liberty up, with the tear, which sentimentalizes the incident, it personifies Lady Liberty weeping over the lack of inequality, that is pretty obvious, what that personification does. But if you take away the tear, it is America stands behind the four girls. It's subtle, but it's there. The obverse number 11, I believe silhouettes are better. So, I don't want to speak too much on that. Obverse number 13 is a very smart stylistic design. I am not sure about the grid and whether or not that represents the stained glass, as we might like it. The four girls in prayer, I am not particularly fond of, because this was the awakening as -- I mean, I like that. I'm a journalist. I like Walter Cronkite, but there just seemed to be too much going on there, too many symbols conflicting with each other. The obverse number 15, it took me -- and I knew what -- I knew what the window, the blow out window was, it's a very famous photograph in journalism, and it took me a while to realize what that was, because it is too close to other iconic images that do not represent Jesus. Would you like me to go to the reverses, Gary? Chair Marks: Yes, please go ahead. Member Bugeja: Okay, and I love this depicted design of number three. I'm not sure 'Love 120 Forgives All', as was said by the Congresswoman, is the appropriate logo. As for a reverse, number four has what I consider the right size of the church, in order to get the text the way we might want it, and the way the families might want it. The designs that kind of caught my eye are the last three. There is something intriguing about nine. I'm not sure it goes with any obverse, however. I like the idea of the foundation of inter-locking hands and holding up the church and the icons of life for freedom. Now, this is a coin, and I don't know if -- I know that -- is Bill McAllister there from Coin World? Chair Marks: Yes. Member Bugeja: Bill knows I am a journalist, and we have, every year at Iowa State University, a First Amendment day, where we celebrate all of our freedoms, and our aspirations for equality, and this is the kind of image that journalists would like to celebrate the sacrifice of these four girls. But I'm not saying that is my favorite. It's the -my personal favorite, but I'm not sure it represents what others want, and I want to -- 10 is acceptable to me. I think the reason why 10 is acceptable to me. I think the reason why 10 is acceptable to me is because it's iconic. It's not just a picture of a church, and that is why kind of like number nine, as well. Number 11 to me is very intriguing, say for the 'Love that Forgives', because it reminds me of the elegance of the New Rochelle Commemorative, the reverse of the New Rochelle Commemorative, long ago. I thought that it was very stylistic and symbolic for the reverse of a coin. 121 That is all, Gary, and thank you for acknowledging my view points. Thank you. Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. At this point, I'd like to go to Mike Ross. Member Olson: I'll be very brief, and with the main thrust of my remarks being that I think the 'Pivotal in the Struggle for Equality' is the exact language that should go on the coin, because it gets the historical moment just right. It wasn't the awakening. The awakening would be the early days of the Civil Rights Movement. It's not about the 'Love that Forgives'. It was the -contrasted with the ringing rhetoric on the march on Washington, this dark moment where the Nation realized just how intractable the problem was, and I think it's pivotal in the struggle for Civil Rights, in the struggle for equality, is really, the appropriate language. I want to echo the point that we should make strongly, since the CFA picked it, that the obverse two not only looks like a coin we just did, but it's almost an exact replica of the Girl Scouts logo, and therefore, I think it's not the right choice. So, I am in favor of the 12 and 18, as sketched. Chair Marks: Thank you, Mike. We'll go to Donald, now. Member Scarinci: First, I just want to, you know, congratulate Don and his team, for giving us some really extraordinary designs, and you know, in a perfect world, you know, there are some designs here that in combination, you know, would just make a magnificent metal. But us, and You You as the Congressman says, you know, reminded or certainly reminded me, making legislation building compromise is like making sausage. know, you don't want to see it being made. just want to enjoy it at the end. 122 I think that, you know, as someone who has been here on this Committee for a very, very long time, I guess eight years, I have never seen a member of Congress come to this Committee on behalf of a piece of art or a metal or a cause, and address us. I have never seen that. I also have never seen the Mint be as responsive as they have been in an instance where they're about to produce a metal in less time that any private Mint in the country would be able to produce it, you know, which is -- you know, this is Government doing something, you know, faster and looking at these designs, better than any private Mint in the country. And I think those two things in combination with the third thing, which is that, you know, what I think we have seen now repeatedly over a period of time is a pattern of really listening to us, listening to the CFA, listening to people and incorporating our suggestions and coming back to us with modifications, even though their time frames, you know, make that difficult. For those of us who were here in the old days, you know, when we got yelled at for not meeting their deadline, you know, this is a radical -- this is a radically new experience. I say those things, I say all these things to make a suggestion that, you know, you've never -- you know, those who've known me a while have never heard me make before. You may never hear me make it again, but I think given the -- you know, given the time frame of this metal, given the sensitivity and the obvious interest in this metal, you know, with a Congresswoman who represents our Nation, coming here to talk about this, taking the time out of her day, which is extraordinary on Capitol Hill, to do this, I think that, you know, that not withstanding the fact that maybe there are other designs that I would like to argue for and debate, I think for all of the reasons I stated, I'd 123 like to recommend that we go with obverse 18, reverse 12, with the freedom -- with a grant of artistic freedom for the Mint staff to design this metal the way the Congresswoman and her constituents are happy with, within the time frame and the narrow time frame that they have, and not constrain them by anything, you know, that we might do here today. This is a one-time thing. I am not -- you're not going to hear me do this again. It's a one-time thing, but I think, you know, the one thing the Congressman said, you know, this is all about give and take, and there's been a lot of giving, you know, from the Mint, to us, and I'd really like to give this back, and give them the freedom to do this, and to do it, you know, the way it needs to be done, in the time frame it needs to be done, recognizing how extraordinary it is. Chair Marks: Are you done? Member Scarinci: Yes. Chair Marks: Okay, thank you. Director Peterson: Can I just comment on this? Chair Marks: Yes, please. Director Peterson: On what Donald said, because I see a lot of digging for the designs here. The numbers again, and can we pull them up on the screen? Ms. Stafford: Absolutely, and actually, we wanted to take a moment. We're referring, or a few people have referred to obverse 18 and reverse 12, which was the sketch that was circulated earlier by Don Everhart. But just for the record and to ensure consistency when we have all of the recommendation letters that we put in the packet to the Secretary, I would just like to note that what we're calling obverse 18 124 is really obverse one-A, with the revisions as discussed and recommended, and reverse 12 is really reverse six-A, which had previously been adjusted in consultation with our liaisons with the modifications we discussed, as well. Chair Marks: It was my intent of labeling those as obverse 18 and reverse 12, so that we wouldn't have to spend time talking about the others and how we've modified them, that there was just as simple go-to image, so we could simplify our discussion. Director Peterson: I understand. I just -- the CFA doesn't know of an 18 or a 12, and so, as we write up our package, we'll probably have to refer to the original designs, modified as discussed by the -Chair Marks: Okay. Director Peterson: -- the visitors today. Ms. Sullivan: We're just trying to make it easy to go through the Secretary very smoothly, that it all makes sense. Director Peterson: Understood. Ms. Sullivan: Just for paperwork purposes. Director Peterson: And Bill, I am glad you just walked in because I heard you ladies say, and I want to understand your expectations, that the objective of -- is to have the gold coin in Birmingham on the 15th of September, and I don't know what is being planned. But in order for that to happen, Congress has to present the gold metal before that date, so that they can get down there overnight or whatever, and so -- and the speaker selects the timing and there is lots of things that come into play on all of that. I just want to make sure you're aware, because I think some of us may have been working to -- we're trying to get this done by Labor Day, and so, that 125 there is latitude and discretion, as to when and where it is for the presentation. Do you know if the speaker's office is aware of the desire to have this in Birmingham on the 15th? Mr. Norton: No, I understand that Nicole Francis, who is the Congresswoman's Chief of Staff, is sitting right there. We've become very good friends. Do you -- if you have an additional -- any additional knowledge of that, Nicole? Ms. Francis: Yes, we have been in communication with the office on this, and they're thinking that would be a metal ceremony that week of the 10th, and then have the metal sent to Birmingham. Chair Marks: Okay, so, just for further clarification, for the members, when we go to the tally of our scores, if you want to support the modified versions, if you could record that vote as obverse 18 and reverse 12, that will help simplify our consideration, but then when I write the letter to the Secretary, I'll refer to it as the modified versions of one-A on the obverse and modified six on the reverse, okay. So, I want everyone to understand how we're doing this, but I want to be able to distinguish between the one-A that was presented in the package and the six that was presented in the package, and how we've modified it. Okay, now, with that, next in our discussion I would go to Tom. Member Uram: Okay, I think this works. I too, respect the family and the Congresswoman coming here and talking about some of the specifics, and there are some great designs that are in here, that would really make terrific metals without a doubt, and the symbolism, and I happen to like the flowers and the ideas on a couple of those. But having said that, I'll respect the wishes of the family and how they wish to commemorate and 126 memorialize the situation that occurred and the act that occurred. So, I will go ahead also with the reverse 12 and obverse 18. Chair Marks: Thank you, Tom. Michael Moran. Let's go over to Member Moran: Thank you, Gary. I came here with other ideas, as to what I liked, but the -- and I came here though with the mis-giving in the back of my mind that I was judging it from my taste, my art, my background, and there is no way that I would ever be able to view it from your point of view. I will never be able to walk in your shoes. It just isn't there for me to do. You have sympathy. my respect, my deep regard, my Therefore, you get what you want, as far as I'm concerned on the metal. I'm not about to oppose it. I would say though that in my experience, this metal has the potential to be burdened with too many inscriptions, if you're not careful. To the extent that Don can either -- and there are ways to finesse that, or if there are ways to shorten these inscriptions, you maybe ought to consider that. I certainly think that -- I know I choked on the word 'pivotal', or not 'pivotal', 'sacrifice' in one of the metals -- no, I don't think the families would view that as a sacrifice at all. I see pivotal as really an important phrase word within that metal that should not be lost and should be a key point that your eye goes to, without changing these designs. I also sense that we want something that is handsome. You're going to get it with that church on the back, and it is there on the 15th of 127 September, darn sure. But in working with the Mint going forward, if you all can abbreviate the word, shorten them somehow, I think it would help the way the metal presents, because a picture is worth one-thousand words. Ms. Braddock: So, are you suggesting abbreviate from this, that that's too wordy? Member Moran: At the end of the day, it is what is in your heart, not mine, but for the sake of art, if there is some things that you can do without, that still convey what you want to convey, you should consider it. Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. We'll go to Heidi, now. Ms. Stafford: Can I interrupt, really quickly? Sorry, Mr. Chairman. Chair Marks: Yes, please. Ms. Stafford: I wanted just to get clarification. I do know that on reverse six-A or the reverse 12, as we've discussed it, we have the inscription 'Four Girls Were Killed in the Bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church'. On the reverse 12, the words 'In Memory Of' were added. I didn't know if the sisters or liaisons had a feeling, a preference one way or the other, whether 'In Memory Of' must be added or if it stands as that, and I would just like to know for the record, if you do have a preference. Ms. Braddock: Well, here again, we were just talking about it and I want to address what you were just saying. We could reduce that to kiln in the bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church. Because the 4 girls are on the other side, and the coin itself is ‘In Memory Of.’ So, in terms of wording I don’t know what you think about it, but we could reduce it. 128 Member Jansen: Well done. Ms. Braddock: It's the same thing. Chair Marks: I see a lot of nodding heads. okay, Heidi, you want to go ahead? So, Member Wastweet: I want to thank you for taking the trip here to be with us today. You are the sisters, is that correct, of -Ms. McNair: Yes, my sister was Denise McNair and here's was Carole Robertson. Member Wastweet: Thank you, and then there are two others. Are they within your congregation still? Ms. McNair: anymore. None of us attend that church Member Wastweet: Okay, and one of you was on our phone meeting before, when we discussed -you were, okay, and so, I am hearing that really the wording seems to be more important to you than the images. Am I interpreting that correctly? Ms. McNair: I think it's a combination of both. Member Wastweet: Combination of both. Mr. Antonucci: We can do the wording the way it is, the way we discussed it, obverse 18 and 12, we can do that. Mr. Everhart: Yes, it's a three-inch metal. So, we have plenty of room. Member Wastweet: Yes, I think the way that -Don, the way you've written it out, if we shorten that, abbreviate it, whatever, I don't think is going to make any substantial difference in the overall design. I don't think we gain anything. It is a lot of inscription, but by shortening the inscription, we don't really necessarily gain either. I think we had some really nice designs to choose 129 from, and frankly, I had some other favorites, but like it was mentioned before, what is important is that the people who are closest to this incident, that it means the most to them. So, that's all I have. Chair Marks: Thank you, Heidi. Mike? Member Olson: Welcome to our guests. It's a real honor to have you here, and hear your input. You also are a part of history, and it's -- that's one of the pleasures of being on this Committee is, we get to interact with a lot of folks that we may not have otherwise encountered, and it's certainly a pleasure to have you here today. Don, I want to commend you. You're making a habit of this sketching on the fly, and so far, as Gary mentioned earlier, on the baseball, you've hit some home runs. Mr. Everhart: I'm going to sell copies of it after the meeting. Member Olson: And could you sign this for me, so I could put it on e-bay? No, this looks great. You know, Mike beat me to the punch here, but when we're talking about a small metal, even though this is three-inches, in many cases, the less said, the better. You want to convey it by what you're depicting and feeling. But I would trust that the folks on the Mint staff will do a nice job of putting that verbiage in there, in a way that compliments the design, and I would agree with Donald, that we've got enough here to really make a recommendation on and I think we can trust the folks to flesh this out a little bit and get something everyone would be proud of. So, with that, that concludes my comments. Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. I too, welcome our visitors. Thank you for coming and sharing your thoughts with us. 130 I also want to thank the artists for the good work that they've presented to us here. I am very encouraged with the quality of the drawings that we've been presented with. I hope, Don, that you'll convey the sentiment of the Committee expressed here today, to the rest of your team, how much we appreciate what we're seeing here. Mr. Everhart: I don't feel comfortable taking all the credit, because Betty and Megan and Leslie and April have done a lot work in that regard too. So, it's not just me. Chair Marks: Surely, and I've mentioned that earlier today, that the entire Mint team is like firing on all cylinders, specifically to the artwork though, I hope you would convey to the artists, the pleasure with which their work has been received today, and not just on this program, but the others also. Very good stuff. Mr. Everhart: We hear you. Chair Marks: So, with respect to the designs, like the others, I came here with my favorites, but I am not sure what value that has at this point. So, I'm going to support the direction that we've heard today, with this modified designs, and with that, I'm going to recognize Erik. Member Jansen: Thanks for coming today. Thanks for being part of the drafting work we did on the phone a number of weeks ago. I think I'm pretty confident, when I say the process you put us through, while maybe similar to many processes we go through for a lot of different coins and metals, but this one had a whole lot more heart to it than some of these other things have sometimes. In that extent, you have helped us grow, as well. 131 So, thank you for that. I have my favorites, as well. I would hope that although we modified obverse one and six, that the original artist of those designs get their fair share of the credit for this final design. I think that is important because we consume a lot of artistic energy and sometimes, I fear we don't give it back, and I want to make sure that that happens. As one of the agendas that I'd like to encourage this Committee, to encourage the Mint to develop is, these artists need to be turned into rock stars, and to that extent, there are a lot of aspiring rock stars before they find their hit, and so, I would hope that the artists that are contributing here today in this project and others, that don't get recognized per se in this project or the projects they hope to win in, get their chance and they don't feel the fatigue and don't give up, because what's happening is wonderful. What happened here is wonderful for this particular project. But I just thank the artists that just keep giving their energies, even though they aren't getting the trophy this time. Thank you. Chair Marks: Thank you, Erik. Jeannie? Member Stevens-Sollman: I have to follow this tall gentleman. Thank you one and all for coming. I know this is a hardship for you, to leave your homes this time and for us to do this in a quick sort of timely fashion. Unlike my colleagues, I did come here with other ideas and preferences. We were presented with some incredible drawings for this very passionate project, and I was -- I'd like to compliment the artists down in the Mint, for this very, very difficult work. I wish we really could have a choice and present two or three gold metals, because we -- it is a very 132 important event to commemorate. But like my colleagues, I will go with your choices with moderation and revisions, and support obverse 18 and reverse 12. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chair Marks: Thank you, Jeanne, and with that, that brings the initial discussion to a close. Are there any final comments from the members, having heard all the rest of your colleagues? Member Olson: I want to single out one design in particular, that I neglected to when I did my talk. But the reverse number three, whoever did that was really doing some creative thinking, and that is a really nice design. So, pat on the back to whoever that was, and I wish we could maybe use it on this one, or maybe there is a use for it somewhere down the road, but that is a winner. Chair Marks: And I'll second that. That is a great -Member Wastweet: Yes, that is a good design. Chair Marks: -- design, and I love it and yes, so, accolades to the artist who did that. Are there program? any other final comments on this Okay, hearing none, then I'll ask the members to go ahead and complete their scoring sheets, and when you've completed those, would you please pass them into Erik, and he'll do our tally and when those are available, I'll announce them before we adjourn the meeting here today. 2014 Native American Coin Review So, at this time, we're pretty much on schedule to proceed with our next program, which is the review of candidate designs for the 2014 Native American 133 $1 Coin Program, and if the staff is prepared, April, do you have your staff report? Ms. Stafford: Yes, sir. Public Law 110-82 requires the Secretary of the Treasury to Mint and issue onedollar coins in honor of Native Americans and the important contributions made by Indian Tribes and individual Native Americans, to the development and history of the United States. The Act mandates a reverse design for these coins with an image emblematic of one important Native American or a Native American contribution each year, in chronological order through 2016. The 2014 designs were created from the previously approved concept Native hospitality ensured the success of the Lewis and Clark expedition. As is custom, we worked closely with the National Museum of the American Indian on both the concepts and designs. We also consulted with the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs, the Congressional Native American Caucus of the House of Representatives, and the National Congress of American Indian. Chair Marks: April, could I -- April, could I -Ms. Stafford: Absolutely, yes. Chair Marks: moment? -- just interrupt you for just a My neglect, I didn't ask the -- our visitors if they had any parting comments. Please forgive me. If you could please speak. Mr. Ward: first. I'm going to do what I'm told and go I'm going to speak on behalf here. On behalf of Ms. Braddock, Ms. McNair and the Birmingham Civil Rights, I just want to thank you all for the time and effort that you put into this process, as well. 134 Thank you for hearing the voices of the family. We appreciate the thought that you put into it, and again, I also love all the designs, at this time, to spill over all of them, over a course of a weekend, it's excellent work, and I think they feel the same way. But we just thank you for the process and think that you have done a good job here and we are really, really appreciative of what is going to happen here with this gold metal, and I think that you've done the families proud today. So, thank you in advance, for what is going to happen September 15th, and thanks for letting us be in it with you and speak. Chair Marks: Thank you very much. when you're ready. Okay, April, Ms. Stafford: Sure, okay, the introduction for this design concept includes, when the Lewis and Clark expedition crossed the Continental Divide, the nature of its mission fundamentally changed. Up to that point, it had been exploring territory that European powers would recognize as belonging to the United States through the Louisiana Purchase. Once past the headwaters of the Missouri River, the expedition was securing the American claim to a new accession of territory, the Pacific Northwest. More than ever before, success of the mission depended on help from the Indian tribes who may not have understood the long-term consequences of their hospitality. For every step of their way through the Rocky Mountains to the Pacific Coast, Lewis and Clark depended on the friendship, supplies and logistical support of the tribes on their route. Lewis and Clark camped in the midst of the Mandan and Hidatsa for the Winter of 1804 to 1805 and the 135 Clatsop in 1806, and their cooperation was essential to the resounding success of this mission. Inscriptions for this program of the obverse, of course, continues to bear an image of Sacagawea with the inscriptions 'Liberty' and 'In God We Trust', required reverse inscriptions are 'United States of America' and dollar-sign-one, edge-incused inscriptions are e pluribus unum and 2014. Another inscription in 2014, though not required, is Native Nations meets Lewis and Clark. So, that is the background, and moving onto the candidate designs. Design one commemorates the relationship between the Nez Perce and Lewis and Clark through the offer of horses. The generosity and hospitality shown by the Nez Perce in supplying horses to Lewis and Clark were instrumental in the expedition's quest to explore the American West. The Nez Perce horses were known for qualities of endurance and intelligence, as well as their gentle temperament and ability to form close bonds with their human companions. I should note that this was the preferred design of the National Congress of the American Indian, with a request that the link of the horses ears be corrected. Design two depicts the friendship between and mutual -Chair Marks: April, I'm sorry. Ms. Stafford: I'm sorry? Chair Marks: That was the choice of who? Ms. Stafford: It was one of the preferred designs of the National Congress of the American Indian. Chair Marks: Thank you. 136 Ms. Stafford: Design two depicts the friendship and mutual respect that developed between Lewis and the Mandan Chief. This was also a preferred design of the National Congress of the American Indian, neither were -- there wasn't a one and a two. They were both preferred. They do recommend removing the pipe, based on its relation to ceremonial and religious use, however, and suggested that we perhaps have the palm of the Native American open. Design three depicts a Native American man offering a pipe, and his wife offering provisions of fish, corn, roots and gourds. The background of the design is a stylized image of the face of Clark's compass, highlighting NW, the core of discovery's journey through the northwest. This concept symbolizes the unity of families in offering aid, support and friendship to those of the expedition. Member Wastweet: April? Ms. Stafford: Yes. Member Wastweet: I'm having a little trouble keeping up. Can you back up just for a second? Ms. Stafford: Sure. Member Wastweet: On design number two? Ms. Stafford: It was also the preferred design of the National Congress of the American Indian. Member Wastweet: So, they had two preferences? Ms. Stafford: They did, and they were -- one was not more preferred than another. Member Wastweet: Okay, that's what I'm asking, and then the suggested change was? Ms. Stafford: For number two, suggested removing 137 the pipe, due to its ceremonial and religious use, and also, that consideration be given to having the palm of the Native American open. Member Wastweet: I don't quite understand the -what they're saying about the pipe, because it was ceremonial? Ms. Stafford: They recommend that the pipe often has religious connotations, and so, in this particular -- in two, they noted that perhaps, it wasn't as appropriate as it could be, if the pipe were not there. Member Wastweet: I'm not catching why. It seems like it would be an opportunity -- or a reason for ceremony with -Ms. Stafford: I would just -- I would say, when we worked with the National Museum of the American Indian, our experts there were sure to communicate that pipes were used in a variety -- for a variety of reasons, sometimes ceremonial, sometimes for religious purposes, and so, they did not have an issue with pipes being depicted. But in this case, the feedback we received from the National Congress of the American Indian specifically noted that in this design, they did not feel comfortable with it. Member Wastweet: Okay. Ms. Stafford: Is that accurate, Betty? Ms. Birdsong: Yes, pretty much, yes. Member Wastweet: Oh, the position of the hand was like he was throwing it instead of -Ms. Birdsong: Yes. Member Wastweet: -- offering? Okay, that makes sense. Ms. Stafford: All right? 138 Member Wastweet: Thank you. Ms. Stafford: Sure, thank you. Okay, so, I believe we were on -- we finished design three. Design four depicts a Mandan woman offering provisions, with her village in the background. In the far background is a stylized image of Clark's compass highlighting northwest. The dollar sign one replaces a fleur-de-lis in the compass design. The concept symbolizes the willingness of Native people to provide aid and support for the expedition. Four? Moving onto design five. This also depicts a Mandan woman offering provisions with her village in the background and again, symbolizes Native people's invitations to share a warm hearth and home and their willingness to provide aid and support to the expedition. This was the preferred design Committee on Indian Affairs. of the Senate Design six depicts Chief Cameahwait warning Captain Lewis of the unpassable river route through the mountains. Perhaps the most important assistance given by the Shoshone was an assessment of the surrounding territory and the best path to cross the Rocky Mountains. The Chief instead recommended a land route further north, often traveled by the Nez Perce. The designer took artist license in portraying both Cameahwait and Lewis in more formal clothing to emphasize how important the occasion was to the expedition. The artist created the scene based on an entry from the Lewis and Clark journals. This was the CFA's preferred design. Chair Marks: This one? 139 Ms. Stafford: This one. Moving onto design eight, this depicts how Native American hospitality furthered the expedition's goal of exploring the Louisiana Purchase and ultimately, the West. By trading and bartering, both parties obtained goods they wanted and needed. Sacagawea is shown carrying a basket of corn to barter for items belonging to the expedition. The two men in the background represent Lewis and Clark, as they survey and scout in the western direction, as indicated by the compass. The cradle board was not used hide the baby, so the designer license and was also directed Museum of the American Indian, the child. because it would took some artist by the National on how to secure That concludes the candidate designs. Chair Marks: Thank you, April. Before we proceed to our discussion, are there any technical questions? Heidi? Member Wastweet: April, was there a discussion about the peace pipe on design three? Ms. Stafford: No, which is why I note that in that particular design, with the feedback we received from that particular stakeholder. Member Wastweet: Thank you. Chair Marks: Any others? Okay, it's the tradition of our Committee that when there is a member who has a particular tie to a subject or a particular interest, that the Chair usually recognizes that person to start the discussion. Today, I find myself in that position, that I have a tie to the -- to this subject matter, specifically to the Nez Perce tribe, and I'll explain that. You wouldn't know it, looking at my wife who has 140 graced me here today, being blonde as she is, but her great-grandmother is full-blooded Nez Perce. So, with that, I'm going to take the privilege of beginning our discussion, and I'm going to go to design number one, if we could put that up on the screen, which if the Nez Perce tie was not here, I would still support this design. But this does happen to be the theme of the Nez Perce generosity to the expedition, and the provision of horses to their team. I think we all understand the importance at that time of the horse, especially in the ability of a procession such as the Lewis and Clark expedition. The horses actually provided the means for the expedition to transport, to move objects and people. So, I think the image is a wonderful one. The image to me, speaks of this Native American gentleman. To me, it looks like he's presenting these horses. So, with the idea that maybe the ears be adjusted, I am going to support number one, but I also want to mention that I think there is some terrific art here. I love the profiles provided in number two. I think they're very well executed. I also like the symbology and the images in three, four, five. Those all could very easily gain my support, and I probably will give them some support in my tally. Number six is very well rendered. I understand it's the CFA's choice. However, this one, for years, we talked about not wanting story boards, and while this is wonderfully executed, to me, this speaks more of a story board approach, to the subject matter. I'm not sure it really -- it doesn't pop for me, artistically, and I think there are some other images that really present the subject matter in a better 141 way. Then finally, number eight, again, very, very well executed. I think there is some good art here, and I like number eight. I'll be providing -- or I'll be throwing most of my support, my strongest support towards number one and also, in support of my family's tribe, the Nez Perce. So, with that, I'll go to Mike Olson. Member Olson: Okay, the theme here is offering of assistance and hospitality. While I share Gary's liking for number one, that is a great design and it's beautifully done. I don't get the offer of assistance, because there is no one there to receive the assistance. I mean, you could interpret that one as the relationship that he has with his horses. But I still like the design and I'll probably give it a vote or two, but moving on to number two. It does show somewhat of the relationship between the two entities there. The ones I'm drawn to most though are number three and number four, simply for the fact that they show that compass in the background. That's pretty cool. You've got the northwest there. It really provides a touchstone on what is happening with the whole mission. Initially, I preferred number three over number four, but when I got to looking at some of the other coins from this series -- Gary, can I see your book there for a minute? In keeping with some of the other coins that we've had in this series, not all of them, but they explained what it is being depicted. 142 For example, the one that we have here from this year, Treaty with the Delawares, the one from 2011, the Wampanoag Treaty. Last year, the trade routes, there was no explanation provided, but it had horses in the background running and the three sisters of agriculture, that was not spelled out, but it was pretty obvious, as to what was going on there. So, for that reason, I go to number four. state what it is that we're trying to convey. the compass on there. It's very well done. really, there is five of these that are pretty my opinion, pretty well done. It does It's got I think well, in Number one -- or excuse me, number five is nice. It's a mirror image of number four, without the compass. I'm really confused about number six. I want to ask a little bit about this artistic license. Would -- is that Lewis or is that Clark there? It doesn't really, I guess matter. But would he really have a hat like that on out in the wilderness? I'm thinking probably not, but I don't know for sure. It probably wouldn't look that new, if he made it all the way up to where they're having that meeting. So, you know, this artist license is nice, but it can go -- it can definitely be over-stretched, and I think in this case, it certainly was. Ms. Birdsong: If I can just add? Both of the clothing that they actually have are samples from the Peabody Museum. Member Olson: The what? Ms. Birdsong: From the Peabody Museum. Member Olson: Okay. Ms. Birdsong: Actually, what the Chief is wearing is 143 in a painting. It shows Lewis -- Lewis wearing that particular outfit. There is a painting out there. Member Olson: That shows him wearing that outfit in this situation? Ms. Birdsong: Not in this situation. The outfit was actually a gift to Lewis when he left, and there was a -- an artist actually painted him in the clothing. Member Olson: Okay. Ms. Stafford: So, the artist license came in placing this outfit in this situation to impress upon the viewer, the importance of the exchange. Member Olson: Okay, all right. Fair enough. Then on to number eight. There is a lot going on there, and that is really too busy for that size of a coin. So, you know, I'll be throwing support towards number one, some towards number three and some towards number four. I do -- if there was a way putting the inscription of the 'Native Nations Meet Lewis and Clark' on number three, that would gain all of my support, but it just doesn't look like there would be enough room on there to do that. That's it. Chair Marks: Thank you, Mike. Heidi? Member Wastweet: Thank you. Design number one, I think is a really nice design and I could get behind this if we hadn't already done a horse design, and because we have already addressed the horse, I think we can do a little better to have more variety in the series, by going a different direction with this coin. So, while I like the design, I'm not behind number one, just for that reason. Design number two, I feel is very literal and then 144 we have the issue of the pipe going away, which is part of the design element. So, I'm not fully supporting that, while it's a nice drawing. Design number three is far and away, my favorite design. I really appreciate the creativity of putting the compass in the background. It's drawn very lightly here. I presume that would be much bolder in the coin, but do you have any thoughts on that, Steve? Was there any -Mr. Antonucci: It depends on if you want it that way or if you want it to be almost a shadow. Member Wastweet: I think it would be better to be bolder, so that it would be more visible. Mr. Antonucci: shadow. I was more worried about the Member Wastweet: Yes, it would be more durable. It would be easier on production, and I think visibly, it would be better if that were a nice bold line there with the compass. I like the combination of the two characters here, offering of the peace pipe and the food. So, it's showing that the Indians helped in not just one category or another, but in lending direction and offering friendship, and support to the physical needs of shelter and food. So, this design really encompasses all of those things very neatly, in a creative way. It's not a story board. It's not too literal. So, I really like this design very much. Design number four, also a nice design, but it doesn't have as many -- as much dimension to it, as design number three. Design number five, same thing. Design number six, the thing -- I like this concept because as he's drawing the line in the dirt, the dirt is not just dirt, but it becomes the actual landscape. 145 So, this is really creative. The problem is that it's not going to work on the scale of a one-dollar coin. While we can see it in the drawing, we're not going to see it on the coin. We're not going to understand what is going on there, and the way the artist has had end the ground behind the Indian, is awkward too. It's going to look like he is sitting on an island. There is no reason for that division there. That makes no sense. So, that one is falling apart for me. Design number eight, a nice drawing, a lot going on, way too much for the scale of this coin. If this were a Congressional gold metal size, this would be fine, but on our scale, I think it's just way, way too much. That's it. Chair Marks: Thank you. Michael Moran? Member Moran: I think I've seen over the last six months, a very subtle change in the designs that have come to us, in terms of their quality. It's been a -- it's obviously an improvement. But the change that I'm seeing is that we're spending as much time now judging the theme that the designer is conveying to us, not the execution of the design. That is a positive thing for me, and I think in this case, we have six solid themes, some not as well executed, and I can speak to that, as we go through these. I concur that the Nez Perce with two horses doesn't necessarily convey that Lewis and Clark is there. Remember hopefully, at some point in time, these coins will circulate and somebody will pick them up and wonder what it is. To me, that is a disappointment. The second one, I'm frustrated because it was my choice, as long as it's -- the peace pipe was there, because I saw that as the unifying instrument 146 between the two figures, otherwise they're just there, and a hand out doesn't get it done. If somebody can tell me how you can the blessings of that pipe back in there, it's my choice. So, I'm kind of stuck here on the diving board of the end, and not knowing whether to jump off or not. Three, I can get behind that one, as well. Again, you have the peace pipe there. It is nice. It gives you a horizontal plain against the right-angle of the compass and a 45-degree angle there. I like that. You have both male and female, and the offering. You don't have to say anything more. You can get the story out of that one, and it will show up on a dollar coin. Four, the inscription kills it. If you've got to put an inscription on a dollar-size coin, other than what is mandated legally, you've lost it, and I can't go that way. It's not a metal, and even on metals, we can get way too carried away, and we shouldn't do this. Four -- five, five. It would be okay, but you've got three, which is a better one, and finally six, I concur with Heidi. There was no question that the pathway through the Bitterroot Mountains was pivotal to Lewis and Clark getting through there and surviving to reach the west coast, an important moment. But it will not show up on a dollar coin. So, we've got to let it go. Finally, number seven, yes, it's busy. But with some moves, you could simplify it. The baby adds nothing to the story and could easily go. You could shrink the figures of Lewis and Clark there a little bit. I'm not sure -- I'm assuming that is Clark with the 147 rifle, that that rifle is necessary, although you need to have him doing something with his hand. But in view of better designs, I have to let that one go, as well. So, unless somebody can tell me how to -- you get consensus on number two, I'm stuck with number three, but I'll probably end up voting for number two, but I just -- you've got to have something that unifies those two figures. Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. At this point, I'd like to go on the phone to Michael Bugeja. Michael, are you ready? Member Bugeja: much. I'm here, Gary. Thank you so I like two of these designs very much. I would have liked obverse 06, for a lot of good reasons, actions, symbolism, conveying meaning through design, rather than through words, but it's just not going to show up on the planchet. Then I do like number one. That was my first choice, but as I listen to conversation, I guess I'm torn between number one, obverse number one and obverse number three. I liked what Gary said about one. Number three just has a lot going on. I like the comment about a man and a woman. I liked the compass, the food, and the different orientation of the faces. So, the more I -- I am torn between those two, but the more I seriously consider some of the comments that are made, I am being swayed a little bit toward number three. I probably should stop there, Gary. Chair Marks: Okay, thank you, Michael. take us down to Erik. That will Member Jansen: I like number six. I thought that was an intriguing design, but just won't fit on the 148 space we have here. The baby doesn't contribute anything to the story here, necessarily, I think, and so, I take eight out. I like the message in six, but it doesn't carry through on the size. So, I end up back on the first page here, looking at one, two and three. I think the horse thing, while it would have made a lot of people happy, I don't think it tells the story because as was said earlier, there is not a gift receipt kind of interaction here. And so, I am down to two and three. The pipe is out of two. So, I am down to three, and I don't dislike three. I think the dollar designation is a little bit crowded in there. I think these sculptors are going to make or break this one, based on how you deliver us the northwest quadron. So, bring it. Mr. Everhart: Very low relief. Member Jansen: Just make sure it's there, will you, otherwise you run the risk of making a variety, which will make a lot of people happy, but probably not in the Mint. Chair Marks: Okay, Jeanne? Member Stevens-Sollman: Thank you. My comments on number one, I think this is quite an interesting concept. If you've walked with horses and you had anything to do with them, these turned back ears aren't always a friendly gesture. The ears are too long. They should be more forward, and you know, it would make it look like he was giving the horses to Lewis and Clark, if he were kind of looking toward us, although you'd lose the beautiful profile. So, I have a lot of good feelings about this, but also not so good. So, I'm going to not support this one. 149 I do like number two, and for the reasons that we have some -- it's simple, and if that hand that is trying to pitch the pipe, if that hand were just turned around to hold the pipe, and the pipe is being held in number three, I think I could say yes, yes to number two, although number three is very desirable, except for this dollar sign. You know, if the dollar sign were -- if the one-dollar were written out along the edge, I think it would maybe help that piece. Mr. Weinman: This is the statute require us to have the one -Member Stevens-Sollman: The one-dollar. I hate that statute. It's too bad, because I think it would make this a better design. Then I want to jump to number six, which I truly think this is an intense moment, and the artist has conveyed this intensity through the Chief. I really think it is a very, very important piece, and I have very strong feelings for this. I don't -- I didn't see the fact that there was a dropoff island there, Heidi, until you mentioned it. It just looked like another piece of something or other. So, if these two figures were there with that intensity, I would like to gamble on what the artist could do at the Mint, to make this work. I like this one very much. I like the historic costuming, and truly, the fact he wanted to get that information to Clark. You know what? If you don't do this right, you're not going to make it. Thank you. Ms. Stafford: Just to add, the CFA, when they remarked on this design, also noted that curve of the horizon, and they asked that that be straightened out. Member Stevens-Sollman: Yes, that would be very 150 fine, you know, it just kind of like -- or just, I don't know, I don't even know. It could be pushed back more toward his elbow or something, something. But his finger pointing, Gary, I'm sorry, I have to disagree with the story telling business. I think this is just too -- he's too intense, and how many times in our designs, have we seen this intensity? I mean, this is really powerful. I'm going with this one. Mr. Antonucci: Could we go back to number three for a second? Design three? Chair Marks: Okay. Mr. Antonucci: If we move the one-dollar under the peace pipe, sort of shift everything a little bit to the right, would that work better for you? Member Stevens-Sollman: Yes, that would work better for me. I just don't like it over there. I mean, you could even make it lower, behind her elbow, maybe, but that would crowd it. But this is a nice design. I just feel that it -- when I look at this, it's a nice design. The other one is powerful, for me. Chair Marks: Okay, thank you, Jeanne. Mike Ross? Member Olson: A quick 30 seconds of boilerplates, sourpussness over this whole series. The laws ask that we depict the Native American's role in American history and they included the writing of the Cherokee language, the Iroquois Confederacy, the Pueblo Revolt, so on and so forth, and last time we did the treaties, with which they signed away their land and now, we're doing them helping guide the guys who are surveying their land, so we can take it. Well, I think the next coin is going to be like Sitting Bull surrendering or Crazy Horse being assassinated and the stockade, something else, the critical end, 151 the removal of the buffalo. (Off mic comments.) Member Olson: But I don't -- yes, the trail of tears would be good. But so, I'm going to go with design one because I can pretend it's a different coin. It's a good looking coin and when people look at it, they won't know it's about helping Lewis and Clark survey their land. It will be about Native Americans and their horses. Chair Marks: Thank you, Mike. Donald? Member Scarinci: You know, that is the most persuasive reason for going for number one that I have heard, and I -- you know, and I was kind of -I kind of figured, you know, number six, you know. You know, six is good, but you know, now that I think about it, you know, I think you're right about one. I mean, you know, because of all the things we've seen today, and of all the things we've been presented with today, you can't hit home runs on every coin, and let's just say, these are just so traditional and boring, and you know, I don't really care for any of the designs. There is no modernism here. There is no attempt at anything, other than people -- you know, and I discount -- I kind of immediately discount all of the images where we have Sacagawea or what portrays to be Sacagawea, because I don't like -- and I didn't like in the Lincoln series, when we had Lincoln -and Lincoln in the back, there's Lincoln and Lincoln, you know, the head, the body. So, I didn't like it then and I don't like it any more now, that we're going to have Sacagawea and Sacagawea. So, I guess I immediately discount all of the Sacagawea/Sacagawea, and then I'm left with -- 152 you know, I mean, I just -- and I love -- you know, and I love, you know, the host, you know, the -- not the -- I guess it's not the host group, but you know, the -- I love it when somebody tells me -- you know, I said before, you know, I love ice cream, but I hate that cold, creamy taste, you know. So, like, I like design one, but you know, I hate those ears, and I like design two, you know, but -you know, but get rid of the peace pipe. Well, the peace pipe is in design two. You know, so, I don't know, you know, otherwise, I could -- you know, and I could see -- and when Jeanne, you know, says, you know -- has an issue with an animal, that is a big deal for me, you know. So, you know, Jeanne sculpts animals, and so, you know, I was kind of -- said, okay, well, you know, let's then move away from one, you know, six, you might be able to figure out, you know, what is going on here, maybe, you know, with a loop and you know, this might come off. So, I guess I'm just torn, you know, and this might be one of those where -- because you can vote three and three. So, I just might like cancel myself out and just do one and six, and yes, the right thing about one is, you know, it's just a couple of horses and an Indian, you know. So, it really doesn't hurt anything, you know. I mean, you know, whereas, you know -- I mean, you know how I feel about the series. You know, we're using our -- you know, we're recreating history -you know, we're creating the winner's view of history, kind of, you know. You know, like, we took their land and we got rid of them and we put them in little reservations and now, we're going to tell the story about all the things they did for us. So, it's a problem with the series, in general, and I've had this, you know, big issue here. There's 153 nothing to do about it, it is what it is. So, I guess I'm torn between one and six, for all those reasons. Chair Marks: Thank you, Donald. Tom? Member Uram: Thanks. Originally I thought that number one also, I like the horses, but then again, they remind me of some of the ones I've bet on. So, I mean, just the way it is. But and I like ears straight up and I like the horses. But anyhow, I agree, I think we had the horses on the first go-around, and I'm leaning more towards - and after hearing all the discussion, I do like the design number three, moving the one dollar down and below the peace pipe, and I agree, I think number two would have been the winner, had the pipe stayed there. I think that would have been a successful effort there, and I do like number six, as far as the intensity of it, as well. So, I think now, I'm torn more between number three and number six. I did like number eight, but there is a whole lot going on there, and as Don just mentioned, you got, you know, Sacagawea and Sacagawea again. So, I think my efforts are going to go towards number three and number six. Chair Marks: Thank you, Tom. Now, by way of follow up, I'll start that. I've got a couple short items to say. You've heard me say this before, that there are times when I think it would be better if they didn't give us these big versions of the design, that all we would be forced to look at -Member Wastweet: Is the little ones. Chair Marks: -- are the actual size. I say that because for those of you who are supporting 154 number six and all of its intensity, take a moment, look at the lower right-hand corner of the page that shows this design, and for me, the intensity is lost. So, the drama of the moment, I just don't think on that small of a surface that it's going to portray the way you think it's going to portray in this larger size. Enough said disagree. there. Reasonable people can On number three, I'll have to conceded that Heidi makes some wonderful points about number three. I could live with that, especially if the compass portion was brought out and made a very significant part of that design. Then however, having conceded my support for three, because of Heidi, I'll also challenge Heidi's comment on number one, about horses and the American Indian. If we want to decide that we look at horses once for this series, therefore, we shouldn't look at horses again, then there is a lot of future designs that we're going to have to rule out because I don't know if you're all aware of this, but this series has no end. There is no date that says, "This series is over." So, as we go into the years, and I don't know, maybe decades of Native American one-dollar coins, if we're saying we can't visit horses again on designs for this series, I think we take a big piece of the culture and we blot it out. So, if that is one of the reasons you don't want to support one, please re-think. Horses need to be a part of the Native American image, as far as this series goes. Member Olson: We could do horses surrendering. Chair Marks: Mike, I love you. I appreciate the 155 comment. Thank you. Okay, any other comments? Member Olson: number three. Okay, couple of comments on You know, that one dollar, it really doesn't matter to me whether it's high, low, but it needs to be in that space behind the female, so as not to detract from the compass, the pipe or the direction they are looking. My opinion, it needs to stay there. The other thing I wanted to point out is that convention of the dollar sign in the shape that it's in, that has been used on every one of these except for the current version from 2013, where a more traditional dollar sign has been used. So, on the four coins done from 2009 to 2012, that is what the dollar sign looked like. So, for continuity, and I don't think we've paid a lot of attention to that. We've just kind of went with the design that looked the best, but I really think for continuity, we should try to keep that the same, to the extent we can. Now, the other thing that I've just been eagerly waiting to ask Don about here is on this compass, would it be possible to incuse the compass? Mr. Antonucci: It's on the field, and we were headed in that direction. That's sort of where we're at. Member Olson: That would be really cool on an -in an inexpensive coin. I know they're not available for circulation, but I just bought a box of them downstairs for not much more than face value. Mr. Antonucci: As long as you can go below the field level, and if Steve says we can do that -Member Olson: That would be cool, and it would really look nice on a proof. 156 Mr. Antonucci: But it will be polished. The field, the background is going to polished too. So, I'm not sure how you're going to accomplish that. Mr. Everhart: If it was matte, if the compass was matte on a polished surface on a proof, that would show up. Member Olson: You mean recessed? Mr. Everhart: Yes, incuse and not polished. (Off mic comments) Mr. Everhart: No, no, the surface, the basin would be frosted, but the compass would not be. Member Olson: No. Mr. Everhart: No? Member Olson: No, people like shiny. Mr. Everhart: sorry. Excuse me, I said that wrong, I'm Member Olson: Yes, you did. Mr. Everhart: The basin would be -Member Olson: Polished, correct. Mr. Everhart: -- polished with the compass frosted. Member Olson: Frosted, yes. Mr. Everhart: That would look really nice. Member Olson: Yes, but you're saying incuse. Mr. Everhart: Correct, incuse and frosted. Member Olson: As long as we can let it into the field, it would be something new, we've never done that. Mr. Everhart: That would be cool. 157 Chair Marks: Okay, anyone else? Member Wastweet: Steve? You think you can do that, Mr. Antonucci: We'll give it a shot. Member Olson: If you make any mistakes, I'll take whatever mistakes -Mr. Antonucci: I know that. (Off mic comments.) Chair Marks: Okay, now, any other comments? Member Wastweet: Gary? Chair Marks: Heidi? Member Wastweet: horse comment. I want to address the -- your Chair Marks: Go for it. Member Wastweet: I didn't intend that I don't want to see anymore horses, because horses are crucial to the whole Indian story, and I'd love to see more horses in the future. I just don't think that this conveys the message that the narrative hits. He looks like the keeper of horses, rather than the giver or lender of horses. Chair Marks: Well, I don't know, in fairness, I'll just say, if I'm coming to give you something arms open, I'm giving it to you. I think that is a very giving posture. So, that -- whatever it is. Any other comment? Okay, if you can go ahead and do your scoring sheets, this will be obviously, and interesting one to see how this comes out. We want to get that tallied and report back to you what those results are. 158 Meanwhile, while we start that process, I want to circle back to -- yes, 16th Street, we've got some results for 16th Street, if you are interested. So, we'll start with the obverse. Pardon? (Off mic comments.) Chair Marks: Okay so, let's go to the 16th Street bombing victims Congressional gold metal. On the obverse scores, we have obverse one with zero. One-A with three. Obverse two received three. Obverse three received six. Obverse four received one. Five received one. Six received zero. Seven received one. Obverse eight received zero, as well as nine received zero. Ten received zero. Eleven received three. Twelve received one. Obverse 13 received four. Obverse 14, two. Obverse 15, four. Obverse 16, six. Obverse 17, three and then the recommended design would be obverse 18, which received 29 of the 30 possible scoring points, which of course, we know 18 is the modified One-A, correct? Ms. Stafford: Correct. Chair Marks: Yes, okay. So, that is modified One-A received 29 of 30. So, for the reverse, reverse one received two. Reverse two received one. Reverse three received 13. Reverse four and five, zero. Reverse six and six-A received three each. Seven received zero. Two received two. Nine received zero. Reverse ten received 12 points. Reverse 11 received six points. Then drum roll, please. New reverse 12, which is modified six-A received 28 159 of the 30 possible points. Those were the results for that program. We are ahead of schedule right now, but still needing to get the scores to you for the Native American dollar. So, I am going to put us in recess for the next 10 or 15 minutes and when we come back, we'll report those scores and then we'll be adjourning for the day. So, we're in recess. (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the record at 3:35 p.m. and resumed at 3:40 p.m.) Chair Marks: Okay, we are back on the record. We have the scores for the 2014 Native American onedollar coin. Reverse number one received 17. Reverse two received four. Reverse three received 23 and is our indicated recommendation. Reverse four received four. Reverse five, two. Reverse six received six. Reverse eight received five. (Off mic comment.) Member Jansen: There is no seven. Chair Marks: There is no seven. There is no design seven. Mr. Everhart: Is this out of 27? Does this include Mike Ross? Chair Marks: All members are accounted for. All members are accounted for. Those tallies are final. Okay, well, with that, the business of this day is complete. I will look forward to seeing all of you tomorrow morning. Our design -- or our meeting tomorrow begins at 9:15 a.m., and I hope you all have a wonderful 160 evening. We are adjourned. Member Bugeja: Thank you, Gary. Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter concluded at 3:45 p.m.)
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