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United States Mint
Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee
Tuesday, July 23, 2013
The Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee met in the
2nd Floor Conference Room A at the United States
Mint, 801 9th Street N.W., Washington, D.C., at
9:00 a.m.,
Gary Marks, Chair, presiding.

CCAC Members Present:
Gary Marks, Chair
Michael Bugeja
Erik Jansen
Michael Moran
Michael Olson
Michael Ross
Donald Scarinci
Jeanne Stevens-Sollman
Thomas Uram
Heidi Wastweet
United States Mint Staff Present:
Richard A. Peterson, Acting Director
Steve Antonucci
Betty Birdsong
Don Everhart
Bill Norton
Leslie Schwager
April Stafford
Megan Sullivan
Greg Weinman
Also Present:
Desiree Boykin, United Negro College Fund





Rights Institute
Katina Charles, United Negro College Fund
Marcia Fairweather, United Negro College Fund
Nicole Francis,
Sewell’s Office





Lisa McNair, Birmingham Civil Rights Institute
Ken Merifet, National Baseball Hall of Fame and
Kimberly Patterson, United Negro College Fund
Stephen Rosa, United Negro College Fund
Robert Rucker, United Negro College Fund
Denise Scott, United Negro College Fund
The Honorable Terri Sewell, Representative, 7th
Congressional District of Alabama
Richard Shropshire, United Negro College Fund
Ahmad Ward, Birmingham Civil Rights Institute

Welcome/Call to Order


Previous Mtg. Letter & Minutes


2014 Civil Rights Act of 1964 Review


2014 Baseball Hall of Fame Review


FY13 Annual Report


16th Street Baptist Church Review


2014 Native American Coin Review


(9:15 a.m.)
Welcome/Call to Order
Chair Marks: Good morning, everyone. Calling the
Tuesday, July 23, 2013 meeting of the Citizens
Coinage Advisory Committee to order.
Previous Mtg. Letter & Minutes
The first item on our agenda is the discussion and
approval of the letter and minutes from our
previous meeting. I trust that the members have
had an opportunity to review those documents, and
if you are prepared, I would accept a motion to
approve both of those items.
Participant: So moved.
Participant: Second.
Chair Marks: It's been moved and seconded to
accept the letter and minutes from the June 25,
2013 meeting. Is there any discussion?
Hearing none, all those in favor, please say aye.
(A chorus of ayes.)
Chair Marks: Opposed?
Participant: Aye.
2014 Civil Rights Act of 1964 Review
Chair Marks: Motion carries. The next item on the
agenda would be the review of Candidate Designs
Commemorative Coin Program, and we have both
April Stafford and Betty Birdsong bringing our staff
report. Good morning.
Ms. Stafford:
Good morning.
Thank you very
much. Please let me know if the Committee is
unable to hear or the Court Reporter.

So, background.
The Civil Rights Act of 1964
Commemorative Coin Act, Public Law 110-451
requires the Secretary of the Treasury to mint and
issue one dollar silver coins in commemoration of
the semi-centennial of the enactment of the Civil
Rights Act of 1964.
Of course, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 greatly
expanded civil rights protections by outlawing racial
discrimination and segregation in public places and
places of public accommodation in federally funded
programs and employment.
The Act also encouraged de-segregation in public
schools and has served as a model for subsequent
anti-discrimination laws.
Equality and education was one of the cornerstones
of the Civil Rights Movement.
Surcharges received by the Secretary of the
Treasury from the sale of coins issued under this Act
are authorized to be paid to the United Negro
College Fund to carry out of the purposes of the
Fund, which includes providing scholarships and
internships to minority students and operating funds
and technology enhancement services to its 39
member historically black colleges and universities.
Since 1944, the United Negro College Fund, or
UNCF, has raised more than $3.6 billion for
scholarships and has helped more than 400,000
African American students earn college degrees.
Representatives from the UNCF are with us here
today, and I'd like to introduce Desiree Boykin,
General Counsel and Assistant Secretary. Would
you like to give some remarks?
Ms. Boykin: Good morning, and thank you for the
opportunity to be here. I am here with several of
my colleagues from UNCF. We have Denise Scott,
Robert Rucker, Stephen Rosa, Richard Shropshire,
Marcia Fairweather, Kimberly Patterson and Katina
Charles here with us today. We might expect a few

Once again, thank you on behalf of the entire UNCF
family. We are happy to be here and we think we
are privileged to be connected with the 1964 Civil
Rights Act Commemorative Coin, and we hope to
have some engaging dialogue as you look at the
designs for the coin.
Ms. Stafford: Thank you. We really appreciate you
being here with us today.
The designs are to be emblematic of the enactment
of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and its contribution to
civil rights in America.
Required inscriptions for the obverse include liberty,
In God We Trust and 2014.
For the reverse, United States of America, E
Pluribus Unum and one dollar or dollar sign one.
Prior to going onto the obverse candidate designs, I
would like to note for the Committee that there
were two recommended artists’ pairings. We spoke
about that earlier today. So, I wanted to call your
attention to it.
After culling of the portfolio, there were two
specifically. So, the first pairing was obverse one
and obverse -- reverse one. So, one and one,
obverse one, reverse one, and the second paring for
this program is obverse 15 and reverse eight. So,
I'll make mention of that as we go through.
So, first for the obverse designs, obverse one
features a girl clutching her schoolbooks and a
young man singing and clapping.
This dual
desegregating schools and demonstrates how freedom
songs generated a greater sense of unity, which
helped to galvanize the modern Civil Rights
Again, this obverse was recommended to be paired

by the artist with reverse one.
Obverse two features three figures representing the
Freedom Rides through the South, de-segregation
and the Civil Rights Movement songs of unity.
The first young man wears a Freedom Now corps
button often worn by Freedom Movement
organizations’ participants.
The young lady is
making her first steps into a recently de-segregated
school, and the third young man is actively engaged
in a freedom song and was -- which was often used
at events held in support of the Movement.
Obverse three depicts a close-up view of
participants holding various signs proclaiming their
rights during the 1963 March on Washington.
Behind them is a banner with Civil Rights Act of
1964, written in uneven lines to symbolize that
rights were not equal among all and also, the
challenge of attaining equal rights.
In the
background is the Washington Monument where the
March was held.
Obverses four and five depict Civil Rights marchers
with cast shadows, symbolizes the, quote, dark and
desolate valley of segregation, which was a phrase
from Martin Luther King, Junior's I Have a Dream
The design is emblematic of students who
accommodation and transportation marches and
other events that led up to the Civil Rights
The cast shadows are used to
symbolize how many Americans lived under a
shadow of oppression, while the phrase We Shall
Overcome is inscribed at the top of the design, as it
is one of the anthems used at events linked to the
Civil Rights Movement.
Obverse six depicts three students marching with
protest signs. The signs read Justice, Equality and

Students who demonstrated for Civil Rights were
important contributors in generating a new level of
activism for the Movement.
Observe seven features peaceful protesters of
various races and backgrounds coming together in
their fight to reshape and redefine American
The design is emblematic of events held with the
goal of non-violent social change for equality.
A large number of participants can be seen trailing
off into the distance and the inscription 1964 is
included in the design to further commemorate the
semi-centennial of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
Obverse eight depicts Americans of various races
standing together behind a stylized image of an
American flag to symbolically indicate one nation
unified by equal rights.
The inscription We Cannot Walk Alone is a partial
quote from Martin Luther King, Junior's I Have a
Dream speech, which in its entirety states, we
cannot walk alone and as we walk, we must make
the pledge that we shall always march ahead. We
cannot turn back.
Obverse nine features a rendition of the Statue of
Liberty with ethnic features to symbolize the more
diverse demographics of the United States and to
indicate liberty applies to all races.
An additional inscription Justice for All was used by
the artist as a strong reference to the theme of Civil
Observe 10 depicts the March on Washington facing
east inside a silhouette of the Liberty Bell with
vibrating bands.
The Liberty Bell is a national symbol of freedom and
is inscribed with the words, proclaim liberty through
all the land to all the inhabitants thereof.

The rays beyond the view of the Washington
Monument represent the dawn of the bright day of
justice as quoted by Dr. King in his I Have a Dream
The design inscription let freedom ring is quoted
repeatedly in the I Have a Dream speech and is Dr.
King's concluding cry for all people of the nation to
be equal.
This is further symbolized by the vibrating bands
around the bell.
The other inscription, 1964,
commemorates the year the Civil Rights Act was
signed into law.
Obverse 11, the hands reaching out transform this
design from one of separation into a representation
of unity and equality and inscription Civil Rights Act
of 1964 is included.
Obverse 12 depicts an overview of the National Mall
during the 1963 March on Washington.
foreground features a close-up view of participants
standing in unity with linked arms while singing.
The design contains the inscription I have a dream
that one day, a phrase from the I Have a Dream
Obverses 13 and 14 feature an overview of the
National Mall during the 1963 March on Washington.
The foreground features a close-up view of
participants standing in unity and linking arms while
The artist added a child's eyes to indicate that
events such as the 1963 March on Washington,
subsequent generations.
Additional inscriptions include the fierce urgency of
now and I have a dream that one day, both
excerpts from the I Have a Dream speech. So, here
is obverse 13 and 14.

Obverse 15 features three people holding hands at a
civil rights march. It is symbolic of all marches that
help galvanize the Civil Rights Movement. The man
holds a sign that reads, we shall overcome.
This is the UNCF's preference because it represents
young people driving social change, it appeals to a
younger audience and is powerful, but nonthreatening.
The holding of hands shows solidarity underscored
by the iconic sign we shall overcome.
I would note also that this is the CFA's preferred
obverse design, as well.
There were suggestions by both groups that this
design be modified slightly to give consideration to
including more diversity among the figures
That concludes the obverse designs.
Member Scarinci: April?
Ms. Stafford: Yes.
Member Scarinci: I'm sorry, 15 is the CFA and the Ms. Stafford: And the UNCF, the United Negro
College Fund's preference.
Member Scarinci: Okay.
Ms. Stafford: So, both the liaison and the CFA.
The reverse designs. Reverse one features the
torch of the Statue of Liberty with a banner reading
Civil Rights Act of 1964.
An additional inscription reads Signed Into Law July
2, 1964.
Reverse two depicts three flames inter-twined to
symbolize freedom of education, freedom to vote
and the freedom to control one's own destiny.

It was developed based on the following quote by
Martin Luther King, Junior.
They get the fire hose. They fail to realize that
water can only put out physical fire, but water can
never drown the fire of freedom.
Additional inscriptions read, Civil Rights Act of 1964
and Signed into Law July 2, 1964.
Reverse three features the scales of justice, which
symbolize that rights and freedoms should be equal
among all.
An additional inscription reads Civil
Rights Act of 1964.
Reverse four, the hands reaching out transform this
design from one of separation into a representation
of unity and equality.
An additional inscription
reads Civil Rights Act of 1964.
Reverse five, this design depicts the balanced scales
of justice to symbolize that all rights and freedoms
should be equal.
An inscription simply reads
Reverse six, this design shows a bright day of
justice rising over the United States Capitol. The
Capitol symbolizes the legislative process while the
sun is symbolic of the day of justice as referenced in
Dr. King's I Have a Dream speech.
An additional inscription reads The Civil Rights Act
of 1964.
Reverse seven depicts a stylized eagle holding the
scales of justice. The eagle, according to the artist,
being symbolic of a peaceful movement, while the
scales are symbolic of equal rights.
Reverse eight, this design features a graduation cap
and tassel. It represents the initial thrust of the
Association for the Advancement of Colored People
challenged the separate but equal doctrine with
Brown versus Board of Education.

All elements and inscriptions in the design are
symbolic of either the Civil Rights Act or quotes
from Dr. King's I Have a Dream speech.
The graduation cap lying on the table of
brotherhood is representative of the quest to gain
equal education opportunities for all.
inscription Freedom, Equality, Justice is used to
indicate the cornerstone of the Civil Rights Act, that
all should be treated equal regardless of race, color,
religion or national origin.
The use of Civil Rights Act of 1964 commemorates
the signing of the Act and the inscription For All
God's Children is referenced in Dr. King's I Have a
Dream speech.
This is the UNCF's preference, as it symbolizes the
evolving need for higher education.
It is also
emblematic of everyone from high school graduates
to post-graduates.
I'll remind you that this design was recommended
by the artist to pair with obverse -- with the
preferred obverse, and this was also the CFA's
preferred reverse design, with a recommendation by
them to remove some of the boxes around the text.
Reverse nine symbolizes the signing of the Civil
Rights Act of 1964. In the background is a solar disk
used by the artist to allude to the emerging
enlightenment. The motif is also reminiscent of the
dome of the Capitol.
The pen is symbolic of the signing of the law and
equal education.
The hand to the right of the
design is representative of the government.
It is circumscribed by the rim of the circle to
represent the legal constraints before the Act was
signed into law. The one to the left represents all
those striving for equality, breaking the circle to
symbolize freedom codified by the Act.
Additional inscriptions include Civil Rights Act of

1964 and we shall be free at last.
Reverse 10, the design is symbolic of a quote from
Dr. King's I Have a Dream speech, which is, quote,
until justice rolls down like water and righteousness
like a mighty stream. It shows water rolling down a
stream and over many rocks. The same quote is
also inscribed on the design.
Those are all the obverse and reverse designs.
Again, I just remind the Committee the
recommended artistic pairings, obverse one and
reverse one and as it happens, obverse 15 and
reverse eight, which is the UNCF's preference, as
well as the CFA.
Chair Marks: Thank you, April. I will ask the
Committee if there are any questions of a technical
These would not bear on your design
preferences, but any questions that we should get
out of the way before we start our discussion about
the designs.
Member Bugeja: Gary, this is Michael Bugeja. I
have a technical question on some of these designs.
I was wondering if we could ever go incuse to
separate conflict between devices.
Chair Marks: I am not sure we are understanding
your question, Michael.
Member Bugeja: Okay, on some of the designs, we
have text, and I understand text, but the text falls
over artwork, and my concern is the text and the
artwork will clash on otherwise fine designs.
So, my question is, to separate devices that are
overlaid on each other, is it possible to go incuse?
Chair Marks: You're talking about incused lettering,
I believe.
Member Bugeja: Well, the lettering or the device.
Chair Marks: Okay.

Member Bugeja: One or the other, just to -Chair Marks: If it's possible -Member Bugeja: Just to bring out the kind of
depth, and some of these designs have depth of
field that is very alluring, and if we could go incuse
on some of the devices, it would separate a kind of
conflict for low relief, and thereby, you know, if we
can't separate them out, I'm likely to say this
design is too busy at this point.
So, what I'm trying to find out is, is it possible to
use the minting technology to separate devices that
are overlaid on each other?
Mr. Everhart: Gary, I'd like to add one thing.
When you incuse lettering over a highly undulated
surface, it will make the lettering look irregular. I
wouldn't recommend that. I would raise that, if it's
one of the overlay -- surface that has a lot of
Chair Marks: Okay, did you hear that, Michael?
Member Bugeja: Yes, I did. Actually, technical
questions -- I mean, responses like that really have
no bearing until we discuss a particular design.
For instance, there are some white and black
designs that interlay on each other, and there might
be a conflict of those devices, where particularly in
proof, if one was incuse and one was not, then we
would have a very attractive coin.
But if it was flat with no relief, that could be a
Chair Marks: Okay, I would suggest, Michael, that
as we go through the designs, in the case that
you're articulating -Member Bugeja: Sure.
Chair Marks: -- that as those sorts of issues need

to be addressed, let's do it on an as -- on design
Member Bugeja: Okay.
Chair Marks: Okay, any other technical questions?
Member Wastweet: April, you said that on obverse
15 the CFA recommended diversity and characters.
Can you speak just a little more about that, what
they said?
Ms. Stafford:
Well, actually,
suggested by the UNCF.




Member Wastweet: Okay.
Ms. Stafford: So, if it's acceptable I'd like to ask
Desiree Boykin to speak to that.
Member Wastweet: Great.
Ms. Boykin: Thank you again for the opportunity.
Yes, when we were reviewing designs, we were
looking for a student reference, a strong civil rights
image, a then and now reference and a powerful
So, the young people on the coin are moving
forward. They are looking ahead. They are focused
and they are determined.
They are holding hands in solidarity, but they
represent the many that sacrificed, worked together
and fought for social change.
So, because they represent all of us, we've asked
for more diversity in our images, so that they truly
represent all of the people that sacrificed for civil
Member Wastweet: Are you speaking of diversity of
age or -Ms. Boykin: Not so much age --

Member Wastweet: -- nationality?
Ms. Boykin: Race, ethnicity, diversity.
Member Wastweet: Okay, thank you.
Chair Marks: Others with questions? Okay, if not,
then what I want to do, in light of the fact that we
have 15 obverse designs and 10 reverse designs,
with 25 designs, that's a lot to -- of material to look
It has been the Committee's practice in similar
situations, that we go through an initial review
where we have a quick indication from the
Committee on each design, whether it's something
that we feel that we want to give further
consideration to, or whether or not our time could
be better spent focusing on fewer numbers of
So, as I go through this process, I am going to hold
up each of the designs and if any Committee
member indicates an interest in that design, then I
will put it in a stack of those that we'll consider
further, and if I hear no interest, then we're going
to set those aside and know that we are going to
focus on the others.
So, we will go ahead and -Member Bugeja: Gary, I won't be able to see what
you hold up, so, could you read the CO number?
Chair Marks: I will do that, Michael, and if you -Member Bugeja: Thank you.
Chair Marks: If you could indicate your interest,
and if I don't hear from you, I will consider that
you're not interested.
Member Bugeja: Very well.
Chair Marks:

Okay, so, starting with the obverse

Obverse design number one. I'm not hearing any -okay, I'm setting that one aside.
Obverse number two.

Not hearing interest in that

Obverse number three. Okay, we have a hand up
for that. We'll set that in the further-review pile.
Obverse number four. Okay, we'll review that one
Obverse number five, obverse five. I'm setting that
one aside.
Member Scarinci: Throw that in. If we're going to
look at four, let's look at five, too.
Chair Marks:

Okay, we'll put that for further

Number six, obverse six.
Member Bugeja: Yes.
Chair Marks: Yes?
Member Bugeja: Yes.
Chair Marks:

Obverse seven.

Setting that one

Obverse eight.
Member Bugeja: Yes.
Chair Marks: Yes. Obverse nine. Setting that one
aside. Obverse 10.
Member Bugeja: Yes.
Chair Marks:
obverse 11.

Obverse eight -- no, I'm sorry, 11,

Participant: Yes.
Chair Marks: Yes, obverse 12. Setting 12 aside.
Thirteen. Setting that one aside.

Fifteen, and with deference to other
groups, set that one aside for further consideration.
That takes us to the reverse designs.
number one. Did I hear?


Participant: Yes.
Chair Marks: Okay, that's a yes. Reverse number
Participant: Yes.
Chair Marks: Reverse number three. Setting aside.
Reverse five. Setting that one aside. Reverse six.
Setting aside. Reverse seven. I want to make a
comment on seven.
So, I am going to include it, but I'm not going to
favor it, but I want to talk about it briefly. Seven is
Reverse eight.
reverse 10. Yes, okay.

Reverse nine.

Yes, and

So, for review, for the record, we are considering
further three, four, five, six, eight, 10, 11 and 15 on
the obverse designs.
We are giving further consideration to reverse
designs one, two, four, seven, eight, nine and 10.
Okay, great.
So, with that, we will go on to our discussions, and
I'm going to lead off on the discussion, and then I'm
going to go to Mike Olson after, and then down the
line, and we'll circle around.
To start off my comments, I want to go back and
look briefly at the legislation. April mentioned this in
her presentation, but I want to highlight it.
When Congress passes laws like this that require us
to review designs, for me, I look to the legislation

for guidance to specifically what it is that we're
called to do.
Sometimes we get designs that are well executed,
have great symbolic meaning to them, and
sometimes they hit the mark for what Congress has
asked us to do, and sometimes they miss it, and I
think we've got some of both in this program with
the designs presented to us today.
So, I wanted to look carefully at the design
requirement in Section 4 of the public law, and it
says that, the design of the coins minted under this
Act shall be emblematic of the enactment of the
Civil Rights Act of 1964 and its contribution to civil
rights in America.
So, as I look through the designs that we're
reviewing, for me, what I'm looking for are designs
that do just that, that commemorate the Act itself
and its contribution to the nation, and that
contribution is something that could not have
happened prior to its enactment.
So, I'm looking for symbology and emblematic
design that tells me a story about what the Act has
done since its enactment.
So, with that, I also want to focus a little bit on
another objective of mine, and that is that whatever
coin is ultimately produced, whatever silver dollar
comes out of this process, I very much want it to be
a beautiful work of art, just for the sake that it
honors something very important in our nation's
soul, something that is precious to all of us as
Americans: our civil rights.
It doesn't matter what your racial context is. This is
something we all share and it's something that,
therefore, should celebrate the progress we've
made, recognizing that there is more work that
needs to be done.
But what we've been called to do here is to
commemorate the contribution, the Act itself, and

its contribution through time, from 1964 to now, for
this 50-year period.
I want it to be beautiful, not only to honor the
subject matter, but also because I know that this
coin is going to be put up for sale and that a lot of
people like myself are going to buy these,
collectors, and collectors in effect vote on the
success or failure of a coin.
If you look historically through the commemorative
programs, there are some programs that don't sell
well and others that sell a tremendous amount, and
those that sell a tremendous amount give great
benefit financially to those organizations that are
the beneficiaries.
In this case, the United Negro College Fund is the
I want sales to be extremely high. I want that
organization to reap a lot of financial benefit, to help
advance their cause.
So, I want something that is beautiful, that will sell.
So, I say all of this because I don't want anyone to
take me out of context, because there are some
designs here, while they're powerful and they have
-- they have an important message, I think they
miss the mark of what we are called to do here
So, I will start off, for example, when I look at
number three, which is one that we said that we
want to look more at, this design is about the
protest. This is about the protest. It's not about
the Act and its contribution since.
So, for me, I can't consider this one because I don't
see it as what we're called to do in the law.
Same with four. We're talking about protest here
again. Five is protest. Six is protest.
Eight, this one, I think more gets to the point, and

let me turn to the descriptive here that we have
from the artist, and I will illustrate.
I'm not going to speak in favor of this one, as one
that I would like to see, but the artist tells us that
this symbolically indicates one nation unified by
equal rights.
Okay, that is something that I think can be well
seen in compliance with the Act.
This one, I don't know if it's going to produce the
beautiful coin that we might be interested in. I am
concerned that while there is a mix of races here,
that you have -- frankly, you have the white man
who is higher than the others in this design.
So, for that, I have difficulty with that design, quite
Number 11 is interesting. I get the point of, they
are trying to show racial unity and coming together
with hands reaching for each other. Friends, I see
this as hands missing each other.
I think it's an interesting modern attempt -- design
-- attempt at a modern design, but I see this, and I
see hands missing each other. I think this is the
wrong message, and if I can interpret it that way,
others will too.
With respect to those who have indicated their
support of number 15, I can't support this one
because to me, this is more about the protest than
what we as a nation have attempted to do since
misunderstand me.
The protest -- without the
protest, we wouldn't have had the Act, and we
wouldn't have had any progress since then. It was
the protest that brought us to that point.
But it's not what we're called -- in my mind, looking
at the legislation, that is not what we're called to do

here today.
So, that takes me to number 10, which if you've
noticed the progression, I skipped it.
Number 10 is the Liberty Bell. This one, I love this
one. I love this one because it -- too bad it doesn't
show up here on the screen, but a key to this
design, not only is it modern, therefore, I think it's
going to sell well with collectors, because I think
collectors are looking for modern, unique designs.
This is an idea that I don't think we've -- the style,
this approach to a design on a silver dollar, I don't
think we've really seen this on an American silver
But the reverberating bell to me, symbolically, I
think that is a powerful message about the Act, that
it's an Act that has truly made a difference and its
impact is reverberating through time, and the words
let freedom ring, the rays behind the throng of
I like the throng of people by the reflecting pool.
This would have been Martin Luther King's view
from the Lincoln Memorial, and to me, that says
that this was an Act that was for all people for our
civil Rights, to advance us as a nation, to unify us,
and then as the artist says, the rays beyond the
view of the Washington Monument represent the
dawn of the bright day of justice as quoted by Dr.
King during his I Have a Dream speech.
Thank you very much, Mr. or Mrs. Artist who came
up with this design. I think it was during the
discussion about themes where, when I was going
through Dr. King's speech, I brought out some of
those symbolic phrases that Dr. King used, and this
was one of them, this bright day of justice.
I think they've captured this very well. This is a
beautiful design. This is one that I think would sell
very well.
Therefore, it would benefit the
organization financially very well.

I think it's going to be a beautiful coin. It's going to
be unique, and so, I am going to be putting my
support behind that obverse design.
Now, going to the reverse designs. You picked
number one as something we wanted to look at
I think this is great artwork. I think it looks like the
mercury dime.
I have concern that we would do something so
traditional, especially if we're picking a more
modern look for the obverse.
I compliment the artist for this. This is a great
classic interpretation of American coinage. I am not
sure it's appropriate for its use in this program.
Number four was one that we saw first, the basic
design as an obverse. It's been interpreted as a
reverse here.
Again, to me these are hands that are missing each
other. I think it's the wrong message.
Number seven, I asked for this one to be further
considered only for the fact that I wanted us to
compliment the artist on this eagle. I love this
eagle. I hope we can use it in a future program. I
don't see its applicability to this program, and when
I read the artist statement about it, the statement
missed me too.
So, I hope we can put this one aside. Maybe there
is a future design about justice in a general sense,
where I think this might be more applicable, but I
wouldn't advocate that today.
Let's see. This one, number eight, I surely get the
significance of, educational aspect of this, a key to
the advancement of all peoples.
For me, this is -- this just doesn't have the pop for a
coin, a coin that we want to be beautiful.

I am sure that there will be people who, if this were
chosen, who would look at this and it might confuse
them, that simply this is about education, when
while it's a central issue here, it's not the main issue
of civil rights.
So, I don't -- more than anything, the art there just
doesn't resonate with me.
Number nine, I've said this before, folks, we get in a
habit of looking at these big designs, like up here on
this screen, even the ones on our eight and a half
by 11 sheet in our book. We look at these designs
and we think that is what it's going to look like.
But it's this little one down here in the corner. That
is what it's going to look like.
I'm not sure what those hands -- when you look at
the small size, what are they passing?
I'm not sure I know that's a pen. It could be
something else of more questionable nature.
So, I would hope that we wouldn't pick this one,
because I don't want to confuse -- I don't want to
convey confusion in such -- with such an important
Number 10, I want to thank the artist for this one.
I think this was another quote from Dr. King's -- I
know it is a quote from his speech, that I kind of
highlighted during our thematic discussion.
Seeing it in a design now, I am not sure it translates
So, that brings me back to number two, reverse
number two, which I am going to speak in support
One, it's a modern design.
It has all the
information, I think, presented very clearly, where if
you looked at the obverse that I've chosen, the
Liberty Bell, it doesn't have a lot of that information.

I think the proper place for that is on the reverse,
and what I love is this flame, because it captures
some of the high points of the Civil Rights
The flame represents the freedom of education,
freedom of vote, freedom to control one's destiny,
and the artist quotes Dr. King with his quote, they
get the fire hose, they fail to realize that water can
only put out physical fire, but water can never
drown the fire freedom. I love that statement.
I think that if you pair this torch image, which is a
quintessential American image of enlightenment,
freedom, hope, we all know that as coin folks, and
seeing it in a modern rendition is wonderful.
I am thinking that with Steve Antonucci's ability to
bring some shading to proofs, that this one is going
to pop off and be a very stunning coin.
I'm assuming that this outer band that we see here,
showing us a little -- we should put number two up
on the screen, please, showing a little darker.
Am I interpreting correctly, that those would be
incused letters around that band?
Participant: No.
Chair Marks: They would not be?
Mr. Antonucci: They would be raised.
Chair Marks: Pardon me?
Mr. Antonucci: They would raise them.
Chair Marks: Raised?
Mr. Antonucci: Yes.
Chair Marks: Is there any reason why we wouldn't
incuse them, if the band could be raised, because
then your letters would sparkle. Your letters would

I think there is a -- one of the Olympic coins series
from, I think it's 1996, the Atlanta Olympics, if you
go back and look at some of those, there is some
incused lettering with those.
I would encourage us to approach it that way. I'd
also -- if this were to be chosen, I would want to go
back and look at the torch, there towards the
bottom. I think it's a little small. Would like to see
that a little bit bigger, bring a little more pop to it,
so people understand that it's a flame coming from
a torch.
But other than that, I've spoken too long and I just
want the Committee to understand and our guests
to understand my perspective on all of this.
I think these two designs really give honor and a
dead-on hit to what the legislation has asked us to
do, give honor to the subject matter and would
produce a beautiful coin that would sell well -Member Bugeja: Gary?
Chair Marks: -- and benefit -Member Bugeja: Gary, this is Michael. Would you
mind if I -Chair Marks: Hold on. Hold on, Michael.
Member Bugeja: -- go next because I had -Chair Marks: Michael? Michael?
Member Bugeja: -- similar thoughts that you did.
Chair Marks: Michael?
please let me finish?

I'm finishing.

Could you

Member Bugeja: I didn't hear that.
Chair Marks: Okay, so, these are an obverse and
reverse design that I think would sell very well and
would be of great benefit to the recipient
organization. Thank you. Michael Olson?

Member Bugeja: Okay, I'd ask you all to have
patience, because the -- I have you on speaker
phone, and sometimes, when you turn away from
the microphone, I can't hear you. I didn't mean to
interrupt you, Gary.
Chair Marks: Okay.
Member Bugeja: I just couldn't hear you.
Chair Marks: That's fine.
Member Bugeja: I want to actually echo many of
the things that you said, which is why I wanted to
go next, and I'll be -- I'll be briefer.
You covered a lot that I had wanted to say.
The obverse number 10 was my clear choice,
because it's absolutely beautiful. The only concern I
had about it is the typical heads/tails business, to
be able to distinguish what is a head and what is a
tail on a coin is important.
It is a wonderful design, but that is precisely the
design that I wanted to talk about if we could have
a technical layering of an incuse maybe of one of
those to highlight the depth of vision that we are
looking at in that coin.
There are actually three devices that stand out.
There is the Mall. There is the let freedom ring and
liberty part and In God We Trust, and if the 1964
Mall portion was incuse, particularly in proof, that
would be quite an exciting design.
The number 15, which is the favorite of the CFA, I
wanted to say that, you know, I like it as a clear
heads design. We would know that that is the
heads, obverse of the coin.
Part of my concern about that is, we've seen that
before in the diversity issue.
If we could go then to some of the reverses. I
wanted to say that number two actually just jumps

out as a tremendous design. I fully enjoy and love
I do want to mention in slightly a different way than
Gary did, the number seven, because while the
eagle is good, it's personified.
Personified eagles come across poorly with some
people. The eagle is an icon and as an icon, it
should not be holding a pen. It should not be
holding up justice. It nearly -- it actually detracts
from the iconic nature of the device.
In fact, if the -- to say it another way, if the scales
were moved to the left and up and the eagle was
there, the eagle would stand behind justice, not
uphold it, and that is one of the things I wanted to
While it's an interesting design, please do not
personify eagles.
Other than that, I agree totally with what Gary said
and particularly, reverse number two. That's all.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. Michael Olson?
Member Olson: Okay, I'll briefly discuss all of the
designs that we are -- we've culled this down to, but
then zero in on a couple.
Number three, I completely agree with what has
been said. The theme or the gist of the legislation
and what I think needs to be conveyed are the
results of the legislation, rather than what led up to
it, and what led up to it was certainly important.
But the protest scene, it just doesn't do it for me on
a United States silver dollar.
Number four and five, in my view, seem very
simplistic and don't generate a lot of interest on my
Number six, getting back to the same comments on
the protest.

Let's see, the next one, number eight, I did have a
little bit of interest in that because it did show some
diversity. There is a lot of folks that had a -number eight, lot of folks played a part in getting
that legislation put through, and the struggle for
civil rights, and we see that here in this depiction.
Number 10, I'll save that one for last.
Go to 11.
Again, agree completely with the
comments that have already been made.
Number 15, that one, I agree with the recipient
organization, as well as other comments that have
been made, that some diversity should be shown
there, as well.
Getting back to obverse number 10, which the
minute I opened these up at home and started
looking through, that one jumped out immediately
and it's -- we've heard from two other members
now, it's pretty much the same sentiment, that that
one really captures your attention for a lot of good
reasons that have already been discussed.
That is an awesome design. What Michael Bugeja
just talked about, with the different layering of
those bell outlines, that would be very interesting.
Imagine on a proof, if the reflecting pool was a
mirrored group.
Very beautiful coin, and it really, without drawing all
kinds of pictures of people, it gets the message
across in an allegorical manner, which we've been
asking for for quite some time.
That coin is a winner, and Gary mentioned it, I'll say
it again, it benefits everyone when more coins are
There is certainly the surcharge, but I think that is
minor in comparison to everyone that owns one of
these coins is going to be a recipient of the message
that you're trying to get across, and it does no one
any good if they remain unsold or never minted.

So, the goal should be to try to get as many out as
possible, and a lot of folks that may be on the fence
as to whether or not to purchase one of these coins,
if they see a very good design, and this one paired
with the reverse, that I'll talk about in a minute with
-- would make something that would make a lot of
those fence-sitters pull out their wallet and buy this
So, I feel very strongly that number 10 should be
the recommendation of the Committee, and I will
add to the momentum for number 10.
On to the reverses. We were to look at or discuss
the first one, would be number one.
I initially was drawn to that design. That does have
some merit.
However, I do agree that it is
somewhat traditional and while it's a fine design, I
think there is a better choice here.
Number four is pretty much a rehash of the
obverse, won't comment on that.
Seven, agree completely with every comment that
has been made. Leave the eagle alone. You know,
we saw a design a while back where it looked like it
was a pet eagle on another coin program.
Very nice depiction of the eagle and maybe we can
see some form of that later on, but for this purpose,
I really don't get the message that is stated.
Number eight, I certainly understand the sentiments
there, as far as depicting the value of education, but
I don't think it captures the entire message. It
captures a portion of it.
Number nine, agree with the comments that it's just
too busy, too many things happening there and you
really can't tell what is being passed from one hand
to the other.
Ten, I really had to look at number 10 very closely
and read the description to understand that that is

supposed to be a brook with water rolling down it. I
couldn't tell what that was, and I don't think it
would translate well on a coin. That is just my
Getting back to the final, and it would be the third
commenter in a row. I'm going to have exactly the
same comment as already has been said.
Number two is a beautiful design. It takes Dr.
King's statement, puts it onto metal. It certainly
takes some investigation, but that is what these
coins are all about. They're about sparking interest
and learning more.
This is a great design. I think if you put this reverse
with obverse number 10, you're going to have a
coin in serious contention for one of the finest coins
that's come out the Mint in a long time.
I would agree that the cauldron does need to be
emphasized, if this is the one that is recommended.
It certainly needs to be emphasized with a little
more size, a little more detail.
Also I believe that if this design is recommended, it
would look very nice with incuse lettering for the
rim inscriptions.
So, very strong support for obverse 10 and reverse
number two, and I'll now pass it on to Heidi.
Chair Marks: Heidi?
Member Wastweet: Thank you. I'd like to start my
comments by addressing the artists and their
We are really pleased overall with what we're
We've asked repeatedly to see more
symbology and we're seeing it. So, thank you,
thank you, thank you. We love this.
Now, the next step, I want to talk about being
careful of our symbology, that we don't have
unintended symbology, and I'm going to talk about

a few examples of that.
We love seeing the artists’ statements here, and
what their intentions are, but the artwork doesn't
always match the intentions, and so, that is the
next step, as we become more aware of what others
might think of at first as the intentions of the artist.
I want to start by going to obverse number eight as
an example of this. Thank you.
So, English readers, we read from left to right, and
so, in looking at this design, the first character on
the left is the white male, and so, we see first and
foremost, he is the leader of this group. His head is
physically, in the design, above all of the others.
His head is raised. His chin is higher. He's looking
forward to the future.
He is obviously the leader in this group of people.
This is not the message that we want to give, and
the text that was chosen here, we cannot walk
So, when I see this, I read this as the minorities
cannot be trusted to walk alone. They need the
white man to lead them. This is the opposite of the
message we're trying to send here.
I understand that the artist has attempted to show
diversity and ethnicity and people working together.
It's not the message that's coming across.
So, let's be very conscious and step outside
ourselves and see what other interpretations can be
gleaned from these, instead of just the intentions.
So, obviously I'm not supporting this design for
those reasons.
Going backwards then to designs four and five -excuse me, let's go to six.
Again, unintended symbology, the way that these
signs are arranged, it looks like these characters are
imprisoned by their signs. Again, the opposite of

the symbology that we want to present.
Any time we depict people on these coins, we have
the challenge of the ethnicity, as in the
stakeholders’ and the CFA preference, we see on
design 15, as this design here -- we can go ahead
to 15, we have the problem, as been discussed,
about we are only showing one race, and this issue
affects us all, not just one race.
The UNCF has requested more variety of ethnicity,
but I feel like this is a complete redesign, and not
just a simple change.
So, I have trouble standing behind this design, for
that reason, and I think that is too much of a
change for us to approve as-is, and also the way the
words run over the legs. It's always awkward when
we have, as John said, that much terrain behind the
text, especially text of that size. It doesn't read as
If we could go briefly to obverse number nine. I
know we struck this one off, but on the topic of
unintended symbology, again, we're messing with
an icon, and so, the message here I see is that she
is not -- she is not good the way she is. She needs
to be changed. That is just another example.
So, overall with this program, the challenge I see
here is: we don't want to be overly negative, nor do
we want to be blindly positive.
The challenges are not over. We still have a long
way to go in equality, and that is why I'm not going
to support any designs on the reverse with scales of
justice, because it's not equal yet.
We're still
striving for equality.
We've come a long way, but we're not there yet.
So, let's not be too saccharine about this. It's not
the end of the battle.
So, if we could look at obverse number four and
five. Well, let's go to four. Thank you.

I agree with the comments that we don't want to
focus too much on the protest, but the reason I like
this design is because the shadows indicate the
passing of time. In order to have shadows, we have
to have sun, and sun and light represent
enlightenment and the passing of time and a new
And our protesters here, we don't have to worry
about ethnicity, but it has the human factor, and
the protesters really were the seed of action. If it
weren't for the protesters, nothing would have
So, the protesters are important, and because of
the long shadows, we show how their actions go on
over time to affect us, and so, I like design number
Design number five, I think it doesn't emphasize the
shadows enough, so it loses that symbology, but I
do like design number four. It may be a little
simple. It may not be the best design, but it
deserves merit.
If we could then go to design obverse 10, I agree
with the previous comments.
This is also my
favorite design. I want to talk a little about
execution, and if I could call on you, Steve, to talk
about the reverberating bells, or the reverberation
lines around the bell.
Symbolically, this works so well, and the placement
of the dates connects the event in history with the
future and how it is not a one-time event, but that it
continues to echo all the way to today, and the sun
rising behind the monument also indicates the
passing of time and hope for a new day.
So, I think this design really nails it symbolically.
So, let's talk about the technicality.
It looks to me that the artist's intention was to have
the field where the reverberation lines are, to have
that raised and the bell to be sunk, and maybe the

sky behind the sun to be the polished area. Don, is
that -Mr. Everhart: That's the way I read it. I think it
could be really well done. If you raise that white
area to the right of the bell, you can actually put
very subtle vibration lines into that relief, and fade
them out to the right. So, I think that would be a
very effective vehicle.
Member Wastweet: Yes, and fading something is
not something we can typically do with a coin. So,
it's very exciting that this design lends itself to do
just that, something we don't see very often.
Also, the text within that white area is all incused
because you see it's black, where the 1964 will be
raised and then, as Mike Olson suggested, the pawn
could then be polished, as well as the sky.
So, this is something that would make it look very
fresh, very unusual for the coins that we usually
see. So, this is a very exciting design. I'm behind
this one completely.
Steve, would you use any shading to represent the
reverberation lines or just sculpted?
Mr. Antonucci: I'd like to do a combination of both,
I think. This might lend itself very well to that.
These are some of the new techniques we're
planning to move into, to take the artistic features
and enhance them further. So, that is the direction
I'd like to push for this.
Member Wastweet: Well, we'd like to give you all
artistic freedom to experiment with that and make
something fun and exciting.
If we could move to the reverses then, as I
mentioned before, I don't like any of the designs
with the symbolism of the scales because it implies
that we have equality now, which we don't. This is
an ongoing battle and I want this to reflect the fact

that we are still striving forward.
Design number four, I rarely disagree with Gary,
but I don't see these hands as missing each other.
The way they are intertwined and not literal hands,
but stylized hands, I see them reaching into each
others lives and the play of light and dark also is in
the same vein as the bell that we are liking,
because it too has the push and pull, the
positive/negative, the light, the dark, and this
design works much better as a reverse than it does
an obverse.
It's simple, but it's clear. I think it matches well
with the bell, and rather than the hands meeting,
rather than scales that says we're equal, this says
we're still striving. We're still reaching out to each
other, to understand each other better as people
and different groups within our country. I like this
design very much.
I also like design number two, as the others have
said so far, with the flames, the stylized flames.
I agree, the tip of the torch below the flame is out
of proportion. It really could be larger, feels a little
top-heavy with the flames.
Love Gary's idea about the shades of texture, which
we're anxious to use Steve's new technology in that
area. So, I like both of those designs very well.
I want to talk a minute about reverse design
number seven.
I agree, I would love to see this eagle recycled for a
future product, because it's a beautifully drawn, well
balanced design.
I was interested in Michael Bugeja's comments
about personifying the eagle.
I don't disagree with that, but in reflection,
historically we see a lot of this, the eagles typically
hold banners in their beak. They hold the arrows in

their talons and the leaves, oak leaves and olive
So, we have historical precedent for that. So, I
don't necessarily object to eagles being personified,
but it's an interesting topic we can revisit in the
Reverse design number eight, this is the preference
of both of the future -- the previous groups, the CFA
and the UNCF.
I understand that education is really an important
factor of this, but it is -- this design is limiting in its
symbology, that it is so focused on the education
and the comment “for all of God's children,” brings
a touchy religious aspect into it.
Overall, the design, it's just not beautiful. It's okay.
The symbology is there. It's not as exciting to me
as some of the others.
Reverse number nine.
I would like to send a
message to the artist: please do not shade color
into these designs. We cannot sculpt the darker
skin versus the lighter skin. So, we don't want to
see this represented in the designs. Keep in mind
that these are sculptures.
The design in the background to me looks like an
airplane propeller and I agree with Gary, that the
scale of this coin, we're not going to understand
that it's a pen that they are passing between each
other, so, let's keep in mind, the scale.
Reverse number 10, I want to give this merit. I
think this is a beautiful concept. The quote is just
gorgeous, and because it's so symbolic, we don't
have to worry about the ethnicity of people's faces
and all these other complex symbols. It's a fresh
The execution of it is not quite there. It's too busy,
too literal with the rocks. So, I can't fully get
behind it, but I want to call out the merit that it's a

really fresh idea and I love the concept.
I think that concludes my comments.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Heidi. Michael Moran?
Member Moran: I enjoy sitting next to Heidi. She's
always got good sidebars.
But when you follow her on a presentation, you are
roadkill before you ever open your mouth.
I'm going to keep my comments short and to the
point, because I'm going to have some difficulties in
making some decisions when I actually come down
to voting.
As I went through these obverses, I came to two
favorites and they are number -- I'll put my glasses
on -- number 10 and number 15.
My concern with 10 at the time was: could we do
this in coin relief? I quite often get fooled by the
ability of that artist to sketch these in.
Listening to the comments of Don and Steve, I'm
willing to take that risk on this. I think the answer
is, you can.
But if you can't do that, then my choice is number
15, and the reason I say that is, I've got another
issue here, and that is one, I'll use a quote that is
one of my favorites and it's by Thomas Jefferson.
"A nation both free and ignorant never was and
never will be," and I like the connection of
Unfortunately, it's not on 15 either. You have to go
either to the reverse that is the choice of the CFA,
or to the obverse, one of the obverses that we
dismissed at the very beginning.
That's one reason why I think 15 allows itself or
lends itself to a modification that could help,
because I'm obviously not going to want to choose

the CFA design. I'm going with number two on the
reverse, and we'll get to that in a minute.
That's why I'm muddying the waters even further,
and I'll say this, it doesn't bother me that there is a
protest element here, because the protests did not
stop in 1964. They still haven't stopped because
there is still goals to be achieved, nor does the
diversity really bother me.
But if you could take the figure that is on our right
and put schoolbooks in her arms, you might get the
symbology there for the education that you're not
going to get on the reverse, unless we go with the
choice with the mortarboard, and I don't think we
are, if I get the sense of this group.
I think we're all -- and I'm answering myself on
number two, we're all going for that clean torch
look. It needs the cauldron enlarged, and that is a
simple fix.
But I am torn with the obverse because I just -- you
can't not recognize that education is a part of this
process, and it's important to the achievement of
the goals that are sought in the Civil Rights Act of
So, I've just muddied the waters.

Gary, back to

Chair Marks: Thank you, I appreciate your mud.
Let's go to Tom.
Member Uram:
Thank you, Gary, and Desiree,
thank you and the group that came and the group
that was here last time, as we started on the
When I first looked at the group on the obverse,
and listening to my colleagues’ discussion here, I
gravitated towards the ones with the flag, simply
because the flag is united and having heard the

comments as it related to particularly obverse
number eight, I can see, particularly when Heidi
was talking about the message, but not getting it
clear. I did like the flag. I think flags depict a
united front and so forth.
So, that leads me to obverse number 10, because it
has the other flag, which is down there on the left,
and I think from a numismatic point of view that I
agree with a lot of the comments that have been
made, that it's going to be a really outstanding
production piece. I think it's going to really look
The only comment that I would have would be, is it
possible to take the “In God We Trust” and have it
curved and let the “Let Freedom Ring” be the only
linear device on the coin?
That was the only thought. I thought it would curve
it out and then your eyes would draw in also to the
one linear item.
For the reverse, I did like number 10 also.
thought that that was very well -- the comments
and the motion of the water and the concern would
be, as was mentioned, how that would really come
across on the coin itself.
So, I think it's a terrific image and a terrific
message. The question would be how it would
come across.
So, that leads me back to the one that we're kind of
gravitating towards, and that is the reverse number
two, particularly if those -- you know, it has a great
message and it also has the movement and the idea
of the eternal flame and so forth, but having the
incused letters and particularly in a proof device, is
going to be an outstanding coin and representation
for the Civil Rights Movement.
I think it would really
combination. Thank you.




Chair Marks: Thank you, Tom. Donald?
Member Scarinci: Some really good stuff here, and
you know, just to keep it short.
I'm going to go along with obverse 10 and reverse
two, as well, for many of the reasons that Gary
recited in the beginning.
But primarily, really because of one reason. We
have an advantage that the CFA did not have and
does not have.
What we know that they don't know is that Steve is
an artist and Steve is going to make this work, and
you know, I am prepared to put full pressure on
Mr. Antonucci: Thank you.
Member Scarinci: -- because this design, if done the
way he does it, is really a winner, and I have
complete confidence he will.
So, I'm going to go along with the obverse/reverse
pairing. I think it's good.
That being said, I also want to compliment the
artists for a very, very nice grouping of designs
overall here, and you know, I particularly like
obverse 11. I like the hands thing. I don't agree
that they're missing. I'm onboard with Heidi.
Honestly, if I thought that I could persuade people
to go with 11, I would do that. I just don't want to
dilute. I want to stick with 10 and two.
Member Wastweet: As an obverse or reverse?
Member Scarinci: I do like 11. I like it as either. I
mean, I think -- I hope we see things like this in the
future. I hope we see maybe even this again, you
know, in some other design.
Number -- you know, I guess that's number 11 and
number four, and then number nine, is it number

nine? Reverse nine.
I like reverse nine. I just like that. I think that is,
you know, I like what's going on with the circle, in
the circle kind of stuff. I like the background of
You know, the problem is, I'm not so sure, you
know, that it's depictable to, you know -- on a coin.
You know, but I think that's a creative and
progressive design.
The other one that I like is reverse, I guess four and
five, and I just wanted to -- you know, I liked it,
you know. I like reverse four and five, and it's -and the reason I guess I kind of like it, you know,
it's basically van Niekerk's South African 2010
meerkat, the 2011 meerkat. I'd hold up a picture.
This one, and of course, it's a great design. It won
the Gold Coin of the Year Award, the Krause Gold
Coin of the Year Award for 2011.
Beautiful design. It uses instead of the, you know,
it uses instead of the shadow of the meerkats, it
uses the shadow of the sand. That's why I kind of
kept the three-person image in, because if there
was support for this one, you know, I'd probably be
talking about using the three-image one and just
raising it, so that you get the shadow.
But I think it's too -- I think we can use this
somewhere. I just think it's too soon and it's too
similar to the South African -- you know, the two
thousand and -- that one.
I just think it's too much like the meerkat. You
know, if you could see it, you know, see the design.
Beautiful, beautiful coin. Obviously, it's a coin of
the -- it won the award for, I think either best gold
and possibly best gold and most artistic, for two -by Krause Coin of the Year.
So, anyway, great group. Not to belabor it, done.

Chair Marks: Thank you, Donald. Michael Ross?
Member Olson:
I kind of want to address our
audience for a moment.
In some ways, you're in the position that I'm always
in on this Committee, that I'm surrounded by
people who have a deep love for coin design and
want to produce beautiful coins, and I really know
nothing about it.
I'm a historian, and I'm always interested in
producing a coin that could be a teaching moment.
The way we teach the Civil Rights Act these days at
universities is twofold, and one is the intense
moment from which it came, where the combination
of the Children's Crusade in the spring of 1963
turning Kennedy to support a Civil Rights Act,
followed by the march on Washington, the
Birmingham Church bombing, the assassination of
Kennedy, turned Johnson and the Congress, where
the white South had been obstructing the Bill
regularly, it was a moment that turned the
conscience of a nation, and a lot of it had to do with
the things individuals were doing.
For that, I feel like this coin should have people in
it, and I see a beautiful coin shaping up here of the
10/2, but it's a coin that is strangely depersonalized, both for the cause of the Act and the
actual result of the Act, which was empowering
So, that is my concern. It will be a beautiful coin,
but kind of removed from the people that pushed it
and the impact it had on individuals afterwards.
So, I like 15 in that regard, and I agree that maybe
you shift out one of the figures and put in a white
man or woman, perhaps with the iconic black
glasses that seem to be in so many of the Civil
Rights photographs and appear elsewhere in some
of the artwork.

Then on the reverse, and this is where I know the
United Negro College Fund hopes to have an
education theme, and there, as the historian, I’d
say that might be privileging a piece of the Civil
Rights Act, that I don't think is the one that gets
emphasized historically. It's usually Title II and III,
the public accommodations portions of the Civil
Rights Act, and Title VII, the equal access to jobs
are considered the great historical significance of
the Civil Rights Act, and the education piece usually
isn't highlighted.
So, in a historical sense, I think we would be
representing a piece of the Civil Rights Act, or
representing the Civil Rights Act inaccurately by
highlighting Title IV.
So, with that said, I like 15. I understand the
beauty of 10, but I like 15, and then on the back,
again, I like nine, because it seems to be showing
this moment of symbolism, where the actions of the
-- on the one side led to this moment where the Act
gets passed on the other side.
But again, this is for a historical impact, rather than
the beauty of the coin.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Mike. Jeanne?
Member Stevens-Sollman:
not to make this too long.

Okay, I'm going to try

First, I would like to thank the artists so much. I
was overwhelmed with the binder this time. So,
thank you, staff. Thank you, artists.
I think we really have a difficult time today, because
we have so many choices and they're nice to look
at. Good choices.
I'm going to throw a little sand into Michael's mud
that he tossed out a little bit, and as we've been
going over these obverses, and hearing the
discussion, I'm going to do something that's
probably a little unprecedented, and I'm sorry,

Gary, to just do this.
But when I look at obverse number 12, and we
opted not to talk about this particular piece.
However, just to talk about the diversity and this
particular grouping of people and the fact that
they're holding hands in front of the Washington
Monument and the mall, I think this is, in some
way, very powerful to me.
I didn't want to talk about it in the beginning
because it is kind of complex. I don't know if it
would read very well, as a coin.
But I do want to thank the artist for making this
incredible attempt to give us so much diversity and
The only thing that kind of bothered me about this
was the background, that kind of looked like Mesa
Verde in the back, instead of the outline of the city.
But I do like this. I do like what's happening here.
However, it's not my final choice.
I want to talk about obverse 11 and the reasons
that Heidi mentioned, that it is an attempt to reach
out. It's not a binding piece yet. We still have work
to do.
But I love the fact that it's simple and in its
simplicity, very powerful. I do like this one very
However, my colleagues are opting for number 10,
and I can see how very positive this is going to be,
especially if we can have the reverberation of that
The thing that bothers me somewhat is the crowd.
In the end, Steve, is that crowd going to look like
I think -- yes, that is my only negative comment
about this side, and also, I do agree, and my
colleagues request to have "In God We Trust," if

this is chosen, to be circular instead of in a straight
On the reverse, reverse one is again, for me, too
much like some of our other coins, especially the
mercury dime, as Gary pointed out.
Number two, which is the choice of everyone, I
think I'm going to have to agree with that. It's, in
its simplicity, very powerful. So, thank you.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Jeanne. Erik?
Member Jansen: I'll raise this up, slightly different
physical stature here.
First of all, thank you to the artists who contributed
in volume and in quality and in heartfulness here.
I was overwhelmed by the sheer volume of
investment in this coin and the Baptist Church coin
we'll be talking about later.
Thank you, artists, for realizing there is a comfort
zone in symbols and for delivering some powerful
symbols. Please understand that going forward,
there will continue to be comfort in symbols, and
that doesn't mean we can't have realistic images,
but symbols are more powerful because they
transcend single words.
If there is a single message I want to send the
Committee here it is, however you're planning to
vote at this point, I'm the last speaker I think, hold
the two images in your mind and ask the following
Does this coin have the energy of the Act, as you
will vote for it?
Gary opened this with the comments, we're here
charged to commemorate an Act, but Mike Ross
really summed it up for me, when he said, "When
you take the people, the persons, the personal out
of this coin, you take away the energy, which is the
back-drop of the historical truth here," that as much

as I hate to say it, 50 years later, there is less
celebration due than there is keeping your eye on
the tiger.
So, I would say, when you're choosing your images
here, please look to see that you're investing energy
in this coin, and returning the energy to the people
that have invested along the way to show us the
improvements we can make, as opposed to
celebrating a piece of paper called an Act.
I like on the obverse, I've been drawn to image
number four the whole way. It is simple. I don't
care for the "We Shall Overcome" across the top. I
think that is a prime spot for a more powerful set of
words, and I'm not going to say what those words
could be, but those words could be about anything.
I don't like design five because it doesn't have the
depth of the shadows. It doesn't show the light
behind the people coming through time. It doesn't
show the expansive energy of these people's single
efforts into the shadows of time.
So, five is not an issue in my mind.
Four, I like much better, the balance, the design.
The placards, it's funny, the placard is more
important than the message, because the placard
means: what I believe can make a difference.
I think that is the unifying opportunity, which has
created the coming together in protest, which made
the difference here.
So, I look at four images here, folks. I'm looking at
obverse four. I'm looking at obverse 10, which has
become a freight train here of technical prowess, as
opposed to delivering the right result.
It's an image that I am worried that the reflecting
pool photo in the bell is going to get -- it's not going
to come through. I think we can do textures and
we can do all kinds of fun things here, but I am
worried that the crowd and the lower portions of the

bell is just going to become a texture.
But I walk away with image four and image 10, and
then going to the reverses, I like the hands, and it's
a much better reverse than it is an obverse.
So, I end up with two reverses here, that is reverse
two and reverse four.
So, I have four images in my mind and I'm trying to
find energy and I'm trying to find people and I'm
trying to find a coin that tells us where we've come
from, to remind us where we need to go.
Image two on the reverse is an iconic image. I've
seen this flame intertwined in several instances of
art in my own life, but yes, I think it's an intellectual
pursuit and it loses the gristle of our battle here.
So, your votes are probably solidified and what I
think may end up mattering here is, if you believe
you're alone in liking image four on the obverse, or
you think you're alone because reverse two isn't
exactly what you want, you've got a different
thought. I encourage you to strengthen your votes
for what you think may make you an outlier and
don't vote so hard for what you think is the freight
train, and we may get a higher-energy coin that
preserves the real struggle in 50 years, so that
someone who picks this coin up can say, "It took
them 50 years to figure out that they weren't done
yet." Thank you.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Erik. We're a few minutes
past time on our agenda to move onto the next
item, so, I'm going to ask that any final -- or I want
to open for some concise final comments.
We've had a lot to discuss here. I'll just offer just a
couple quickly.
To my friends, I want to address the idea that
somehow 10 de-personalizes the issue.
On the contrary, I think it is an expansive image

that speaks of liberty and freedom, those core
values that are connected with our Civil Rights. It
shows the rising sun. It's rising. It's not up in the
sky. It's still got a ways to go, but it's hopeful.
The throng of people, it de-personalizes it, in what
kind of person you are. It's for all of us, and the
reverberation showing the continuing impact of the
Act, I mean, it's all there.
We have talked so much on this Committee about
asking for symbolism, powerful symbolism, and I'd
suggest that we have it with number 10.
So, I offer that just as a friendly feedback on the
idea that 10 de-personalizes.
Then as far as obverse 11 and reverse four, which
are basically the same design of the hands, I totally
get it, folks, that the hands are intended to be
reaching into each other's world. I understand that.
I like it. I like that modern interpretation of the
whole Civil Rights issue in this way.
But when I look at these designs, I always want to
make sure what alternate interpretations might be
coming out of a design that we don't really intend,
we don't want.
Say what you will, but there is a plausible
interpretation that the hands are reaching past each
So, those are my last comments, and if anyone else
has any final ones, have at it. Heidi?
Member Wastweet:
also on obverse 10.

I have two brief comments,

Mike Ross, I always love hearing your comments.
They're so valuable to me. I love your perspective.
When I first saw this design, my initial reaction was
that it was too much in a small space, that we
couldn't tell that that was a crowd. It was just
going to become just texture, but then I realized it's

okay, that that becomes just a texture, because this
is an iconic image. We all know what it represents
and the emotion here for me is all those people
coming together and converging on this scene.
The number of people is what holds the emotion for
me, here, and I think that even though they
become just a texture and they're faceless, we will
understand that it's people, and that is the human
My second comment is that I haven't talked for a
while about our voting system, so I want to
We vote on a scale with a maximum score of three.
Please don't just pick one favorite and give that a
three score and everything else a zero.
If there is something that is your second choice,
please give it a score. We want to send a message
of not just our pick, but the others that we like, and
it's not just on each of us to pick one favorite, but
to score those that have merit and let the overall
vote make the choice.
So, don't just overweight the one choice with your
score. That's it.
Chair Marks: Others, quickly? Okay, well, that
concludes our discussion then. I'll ask the members
to fill out their scoring sheets, and when you have
your sheet completed, please pass it in towards
Erik, and he'll be tallying that result.
When we get the result completed, we'll report that
in the midst of the meeting. I'm not sure at what
point it will be, but I will try to get that information
out as quickly as possible.
2014 Baseball Hall of Fame Review
Meanwhile, we have the next item on our agenda,
which is the review of candidate designs for the
2014 Baseball Hall of Fame Commemorative Coin

Program, and if April Stafford and Leslie Schwager
are ready, I would like to call on you for our staff
Ms. Stafford: Okay, thank you very much. So, for
background, the National Baseball Hall of Fame
Commemorative Coin Act, Public Law 112-152
authorizes the Secretary to design, mint and issue
five-dollar gold coins, one-dollar silver coins and
half-dollar clad coins in 2014, in recognition and
celebration of the National Baseball Hall of Fame.
The Act also required the Secretary to conduct a
competition for the coins’ common obverse design,
which should be emblematic of the game of
The United States Mint administered a national
design competition and received a total of 178
In addition, the Act states that it is the sense of
Congress that, to the extent possible and
economical, the coins reverses be convex to more
closely resemble a baseball, and their obverses be
The common reverse design is required to depict a
baseball similar to those used by Major League
We've included in your materials as
reference, the final reverse design approved by the
Secretary of the Treasury. The National Baseball
Hall of Fame plans to unveil the design on July 26th
in Cooperstown, New York.
Inscriptions are required on the obverse. They are
Liberty, In God We Trust and 2014. Artists were
permitted to include other inscriptions when
submitting obverse candidate designs.
We will have with us Ken Meifert, the National
Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum Senior Director
of Development, and I would like to turn the
microphone over to him, to make some comments.
Ken, thank you for joining us.
Right on time.

Perfect timing.
Mr. Meifert: So, have you reviewed all -- have you
gone over the designs yet?
Ms. Stafford: No, sir, just the very beginning.
Mr. Meifert: Okay, great. Well, we have one design
that we really like in particular. It's HOF-01, and I
think for me, you know, many folks earliest
memories of the game of baseball are a game of
catch in the backyard with mom or dad, and I think
the -- you know, the romanticism of having the
baseball prominently featured on one side of this
coin and the glove on the other side just makes
sense to me.
It's baseball in its purest form and in its most basic
So, we also feel that that -- the -- you know, it
really leverages the curved nature of this coin, with
the glove side being concave to take in the shape of
the glove, and the baseball side being convex. We
think it just makes a really nice balanced package.
So, thank you.
Chair Marks: Thank you.
Ms. Stafford: And that is the background and we
will now start looking at the designs.
Design one features a baseball glove and highlights
the concave nature of the coin. The artist notes
state, "It is a fundamental symbol for teamwork and
camaraderie. Two wheat sheaves unite with the
braided lace of the glove to form a ring. This stands
for American unity, stitched together to form one
"The wheat celebrates a love for our bountiful land
and home," and as Mr. Meifert noted, this is the Hall
of Fame's preferred design. It's also the CFA's
The Hall of Fame suggests modifying the design to

remove the wheat sheaves to ensure they're not
confused as stitches, and this was a modification
with which the CFA concurred.
Design two features crossed bats, a baseball and an
eagle with wings spread. The artist designed this
coin using elements to symbolize baseball and how
it ties into the fabric of our country.
The artist states, "Baseball was born in America and
as the country has grown, so has baseball."
Design three depicts an eagle representing the
United States and is shown holding home plate,
where the game begins and ends.
The eagle is placed over a rising baseball with the
sunrise background.
The inscription "America's
Pastime" is also included.
Design four depicts crossed bats and a ball in a
glove over home plate. The inscription "Baseball:
America's Game" is included.
Baseballs and stars surround the design in an effort
to, per the artist, celebrate the nature of the game.
In design five the artist endeavored to create an
athletic, modern and unique design by featuring the
year 2014 with a baseball bat in the background.
The artist placed the words "In God We Trust" in a
banner with stars to indicate that baseball players
are "stars in the field."
Design six depicts a player about to successfully hit
the ball into the outfield. The flag, portrayed in an
outline of our country, serves as a reminder that
baseball is considered America's favorite pastime.
Design seven depicts a baseball glove of the 1930's
and 1940's, used by the artist because it was just
like the glove that his father used when they played
baseball together when he was a very young boy.
The design is meant to extenuate the concave

nature of the coins.
I would like to note that this design was created
using a 3-D format. At the completion of these
design previews, we'd present this design for review
in that format to the Committee.
Design eight illustrates all that is the essence of
baseball, a bat, a ball and a glove. The artist also
chose to include a dugout bench and a baseball cap.
The insignia on the cap is a simple baseball diamond
with the letters BB for baseball.
Design nine depicts a vintage 1930's glove and ball,
crossed bats and a banner are in the background.
Design 10 depicts a baseball player.
In the
background, pendants are seen waving atop a ball
park with the inscription "Liberty" in a team style
The artist envisioned that symbolically, the player
has just hit the baseball depicted on the coin’s
Design 11 represents a view from the eye of the
pitcher, a batter about to make contact with the
pitched ball, a catcher and the home plate umpire.
Design 12 depicts crossed bats and a ball with a
version of the American flag in the background. The
Stars and Stripes as a backdrop underscore the
sport of baseball as America's pastime.
Design 13 depicts a stylized batter with an American
flag shown in the outline of our country.
inscriptions "Baseball, Proud, American and Classic"
have been included.
The artist wanted the design to have a patriotic
look, and notes the main elements of the design,
stars, stripes and baseball are "three things which
represent the spirit of America with enthusiasm,
pride and grace."

Surrounding the coin are nine starts which
represent the nine fielders found on a baseball
Design 16 depicts a slugger hitting a pitch with an
over-sized baseball as background.
Design 17 was, according to the artist, designed to
create something that is emblematic of baseball and
they used a baseball field as the foundation of this
Integrated into the design are crossed bats, stars
and stripes and a baseball, and that is the end of
the designs, Mr. Chairman. Yes, we'll go to the 3-D
We'll pause for a second. We have to make contact
with our -- there we go.
Chair Marks: While we're waiting for this, I just, I
think the Committee understands this, but this
program has a goal that is: gold five-dollar, silver
dollar and a clad half-dollar.
The design we pick today is going to be on all of
those, okay.
A common obverse, it's also a
common reverse.
So, we pick one and it applies to all.
Ms. Stafford: Correct.
Chair Marks: For the benefit of the written record,
I'll just say that the Committee is viewing on the
screen an image that shows the concave nature of
the obverse, in relation to one of the designs.
Ms. Stafford: Design seven.
Chair Marks:

Design seven, showing a baseball

Member Bugeja: Thank you.

Ms. Stafford: Okay, thank you, and that is what we
have for you, Mr. Chairman.
Chair Marks: Thanks. Okay, yes, go ahead.
Member Scarinci: To facilitate the discussion Chair Marks: Go ahead.
Member Scarinci: If there is anyone who doesn't
agree with this design, maybe they should just be
the ones who speak.
Chair Marks: Yes, I think we'll -- I appreciate the -Member Scarinci: I don't need to speak.
Chair Marks: Yes, yes, I might feel very closely to
you. I'm not sure, but I think so, but I think we
need to go through our normal process.
Member Scarinci: Okay, okay.
Chair Marks: And I'm not sure it's going to take a
lot of time, but in fairness to everyone, we'll -Member Scarinci: You can skip me.
Chair Marks: Let's go through our -- right, right. I
appreciate the idea.
Okay, before we get into our follow-on discussion,
do we have any technical questions that need to be
answered? I'd like to get those out of the way.
If not, okay. Then I'm going to go and I'm going to
recognize Tom first. Can you start us off on our
Member Uram: Sure, Gary. Thank you. Many of
the designs are, in a way, graphic-looking to me, in
regards to just symbolmatic and so forth, and that
is great in a way, but for the purpose of a coin, I
like the mitt idea.
I like the idea of either number one or the one that
was just shown, that the young mitt, as well, but I

like the idea of that being number seven.
The question becomes which one might transfer to a
coin in the best way, and in a way, I kind of think
number one would do a little bit better and
represent where we are today, and I understand the
artist looking back and saying, you know, the 30's
and 40's glove, as well.
But some of the other designs, while they might be
well-intentioned, I think I don't want the coin to
look like a symbol for the National League or the
American League in a way, and a number of them
come across that way.
So, to stay short, I will listen to my other colleagues
as it relates to some of the gloves, but I certainly
would not like to see a coin that has a symbol on it
versus a depiction of what we're trying to
Chair Marks: Thank you, Tom. Donald?
Member Scarinci: One gets the word “cool.” It's a
no-brainer. It's an award winner. You can't miss
with this, and I don't think we can blow it with
anything we're going to put on the other side, if we
go with this.
So, with one, I think one is the way to go.
brainer to me.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Donald.
being concise. Mike Ross?


Thank you for

Member Olson: One or seven.
Chair Marks: Jeanne?
Member Stevens-Sollman: I think this program was
quite wonderful to open it up to a lot of young
people, to get them very excited about designs and
about coinage.
I particularly enjoyed some of these, even though
they were flat. It was interesting to see how people

conceived this concave/convex metal.
With that said, I have to agree, number one is my
choice. I think it's -- I love how the artist kind of put
“Liberty” and “In God We Trust” in the center of the
mitt, and it's soft.
The only thing I'm a little nervous about is, I don't
like 2014. It's looks like a z.
So, you know, if we have to -- if we do choose this,
I'd like to go back to, you know, making that 2 look
a little bit more like a 2 and not a z.
As for the wheat and the glove, looking like stitches,
you know, I just like what this artist intended.
So, one is my choice. Seven, I can't even consider
because it just doesn't have the quality that this one
has. So, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Jeanne. Mr. Jansen?
Member Jansen: I watched design number seven
kind of become the poster-child of a lot of the PRs,
and I think the press has a habit of hot-spotting on
single images and things, and it got hot-spotted,
which I felt was kind of unfair. Not that it's
anybody's fault. It's just the nature of the press.
But as I looked at design seven, and I liked it early
It was produced well by the artist, and
presented well in color and so forth, but I had this
recurring thought that, I look at my glove and it's
got these burned-in logo types and so forth, and the
original gloves from the early years of baseball
typically didn't, but I think the ones that everybody
has played with, they say Rawlings or Mizuno or any
other names you might have.
Then design number one pops up and it was like, it
was right, and I think I would go with the removal
of the wheat ears on the thumb and pinkie-finger
side of the glove. I think that is right, I think they
are distracting from the “Liberty” and “In God We

I think Z014 is a strange date. So, I might go for
the two-izing of that z, as well.
However, having said all of that, I thought to
myself, okay, a coin with a ball on one side and a
glove on the other side, call me an energy nut,
doesn't have any energy.
So, I went through the designs thinking, okay, if I
was to try to put a little more texture to the sport, a
little more breadth to the symbols, I end up at
design eight. Okay, you know, design eight could
work. So, I didn't rule that one out.
I ended up with design 11, where
energy of those good straight arms
mass of the batter's body through
through to the ball, and off it goes.

there is the
passing the
to the bat,
That's pretty

I further kind of looked at this design and I said,
"Okay, make it better," and I said, "Okay, put the
catcher and the ref in pretty shallow relief and really
bring that batter forward in full top-end relief."
So, that when you look at him, you don't see the
three faces like the regretting pitcher has in his
mind at this instant of time, but you in fact, see the
top relief in the batter, delivering his energy to the
ball, and maybe the ball is the absolute highest
relief, just so they'll stack, right?
This design delivers to me, the energy I would love
to see on the opposite side of the highly static,
highly emblematic pre-determined baseball on the
convex side of this coin.
So, I am actually -- I'm drawn one of two ways, and
I think it will be a different, but a fascinating coin
either way, with either design one, with the
modifications we spoke of, which, if it's selected, we
would do a side motion afterwards. So, let's not
focus on the changes. Let's focus on the design, or

11, which has this just, every kid dreams of being
that guy, that guy, at that moment, with that bat,
on that ball, over that wall. Thank you.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Erik. I'll be brief, and
please excuse my baseball vernacular, but when
you look at the concave nature of the obverse, in
relation to design number one, and pair it with the
convex reverse with baseball design that has
already been selected, you have a home run. That
is all I have to say. Thank you.
Member Olson: I'm going to take us around all the
bases here to get to the home run.
Member Jansen: Can I tag you out at first?
Member Olson: I can run faster than you. No, I
think I'm not certainly going to talk about all of
them, but I did make some notes and in fairness to
the artists that submitted designs, I do want to
make a comment on a few.
All of these designs need to be reviewed with a
critical eye towards how it will translate into a
concave coin, the first that the U.S. Mint has ever
made, and if we don't look at that, we're missing
the opportunity, because it is a great opportunity.
You see a lot of designs here where we've got
crossed bats. I think, without modification and
finding some extra metal in a concave design, those
bats are going to look bent, when you're looking
into the concave surface.
So, without adjustment, those really didn't get any
consideration for me, even though, in many cases,
some of them were good designs on a flat coin.
They just won't work well on the concave.
So, we really need to take advantage of this
opportunity. I know that we will.
There were four designs that really appeared to me
took advantage of being concave, and two were the

gloves, number one and number seven, and enough
has been said about those.
I don't believe anything has been said about
number 10.
Number 10 has the curvature of the stadium and
the action of the batter. If you look -- put that in a
concave situation, I think that would look very well.
I am going to support the glove, as many others
are, but I did want to point this out, that this
particular artist did take that consideration with the
curvature of the stadium, and I think this would
make a fine-looking coin.
The glove is certainly of more interest to me and it
sounds like many others on the Committee, but I
did want to specifically point this one out, that this
one would work well also.
I do agree somewhat with Erik on number 11, that
this one could possibly be worked in a concave
manner. I mean, imagine if you're the pitcher or
you're the ball, what if you're the ball there? You're
headed right to the bat. That's kind of cool, and
that one could work as well.
The size of these coins, everyone knows this is
going to go on all the way from a very small fivedollar coin, all the way up to a fairly large silver
dollar. The majority of these designs are too small
to support -- or the coins are too small to support
these designs.
You know, I will say that it is unfortunate that we
can only pick one. I wish the legislation would have
allowed us to pick three, but we can't.
Therefore, my support, as the support of many
others, I'm going to go with number one. I'm going
to give full support to that. I am -- will support -make a motion or support a motion to rid the design
of its wheat ears. I believe those are distracting,
and I think we'll have a winner here, and Gary said

it well. It will be a home run. That's it.
Chair Marks: Heidi?
Member Wastweet: Thank you. I also want to give
quick merit to design number 10 for its sensitivity to
the curvature of the coin. I like the curve of the
stadium. So, I just wanted to call that out.
But I am giving support to design number one. We
all like this design, but I want to praise it a little bit
about why we like it.
As our guest speaker said, it calls to the nature of
playing catch in the backyard.
This isn't just about professional sports or the big
It's about everybody, down to t-ball
players. By depicting just the glove and not a
player, this is something that everyone can relate
The glove has a very tactile quality, as the coin will
too. Because of the curved nature of the coin,
people will want to touch it, the way we rub the
glove and feel the texture of the leather. So, that
works as well too.
It's the obvious subject, because we have a ball in
one side, well, it makes sense to have a glove on
the side, but the challenge is, how do we make it
not boring, because just a glove is just a glove. It's
not very creative.
So, I just love this design for the fact that it put the
'Liberty' as leather work into the glove. That is
where the creativity comes.
It's simple.
effective. It's fresh. It's new. It's going to work.
I am in strong support of keeping these wheat
leaves are part of that creativity touch that makes
this stand out, not just a glove.
In the drawings, yes, it's a little confusing. It does
look a little like stitches, but in the hands of the
sculptor, it's not going to be that.

The sculptor will clearly depict the difference
between the stitches and the leaves. The leaves will
be raised and a little concave in their shape,
whereas the stitches go back down into the leather.
I think it's going to be very clear, the difference,
where we're not seeing it in the drawing.
So, I recommend sticking with the artist's intention.
One quick question for Don and Steve. Do you feel
like the design needs to be pulled in from the edge
a little, to work -- to fill that unique shape?
Mr. Antonucci: One of the things, Heidi, that we
have to -- all of our development efforts on this
program have showed this, that height of relief is
going to be a major issue.
Design 10, or design 11, rather, sort of pulls that
right out to me. Trying to get that depth of field
that you're asking becomes very problematic.
So, this particular design, design one, I think lends
itself very well, and Don and I were just discussing
the -- someone brought up about the fact that the
leather is burned, to the point that the -- Rawlings,
or whatever the name is. I think that's how we
ought to approach, although the lettering on this,
do it incused, make it look like it was burned in. It
would really lend itself very well. But not polished.
Member Wastweet: No, not polished. No, it has to
look like it's cut into the leather. It could be the
way saddles are tools. That would work, as well,
and I think that may be what the drawing is trying
to depict, or burned in.
Like you say, either way could work and I'm fine
leaving that up to your discretion. That's all my
Chair Marks: Michael?
Member Moran:

I guess I'm the clean up batter

Member Bugeja: I haven't gone yet.
Member Moran: I am going to go with the group. I
think we're led toward this by the provisions in the
law. Concave, convex, it's a no-brainer, a ball one
side and a mitt on the other.
There are very few designs that -- other than this
that would work in this situation, and maybe that
was the intent, that we would be led down this
road. You just can't fight it.
I do think that it restricts the artistry that could
have been employed, because we really didn't give
some of these other designs justification because
they're not going to strike up.
The other thing that the law is flawed in is one
design fits all. This Mint when through this in the
19th century with all of their circulating coins and
got taken to the wood shed for it, particularly the
silver coinage of the Liberty. They do not work.
You cannot get one design that fits a five-dollar gold
piece, and also fits a dollar coin, and that is the
track you fall into, when you get this kind of
I know we can't stop it. When it gets -- a freight
goes, it goes. But if we could ever get in on this at
the ground floor and convince the legislators that
they missed an opportunity here to really give some
of these other people that didn't choose the baseball
mitt, an opportunity at fair level playing field to let
their designs compete. So I am voting for one, too.
Chair Marks: All right, thank you, Michael.
That concludes our discussion. Is there any follow
Member Bugeja: Gary, did I get a turn?
Chair Marks: I'm sorry, Michael.
course you do.

I'm sorry.


Member Bugeja: It's so easy to forget when we're
on speaker phone.
Chair Marks:
terrible of me.

Yes, I apologize, Michael.


Member Bugeja: But I've been waiting patiently.
Chair Marks: Go ahead, please.
Member Bugeja: Thank you, Gary. You know, it's
very difficult to get away from number one, and to
go with the baseball on the other side, just based
on the coin.
Listening, you know, when I first saw it, I said, "Oh,
it's a mitt," but then as I started looking closer into
it, I saw all those little subtleties, and I would agree
with Heidi about the wheat ears.
I think it makes it a coin. Please be careful that it's
not just a mitt.
I have to say that my preference actually was not
for that, but was for the batter, catcher and umpire,
because if you're a pitcher, that is what you see.
You hone in on that strike zone.
But I like the action of it. If you can't have action
and people in a sports coin, then I'm not sure where
else you can find it.
The tide is really going towards the mitt and ball,
and once again, we come up with what is the heads
and what is the tails?
So, if we use this coin in a football field, to see who
gets the ball and who kicks or who gets to kick or
receive, I don't know if the mitt is the head or the
ball is the head.
But I think the train for the mitt and ball already
has left the station, so, I'll just leave it there.
Chair Marks: Okay, thank you, Michael. I'll ask all
the members now to go ahead and fill out their

scoring sheets, and for the record, in case you're
wondering, we are communicating with Michael
Bugeja via email for his scores, and in the sense of
the discussion we've been having, I'll let you know
that the email I just sent him is, "Please send me
your baseball scores, when ready. Thanks."
So, anyway, you can fill out those sheets, pass
them into Erik and we'll get those scores tabulated
as quickly as possible.
At this point on our agenda, we are scheduled to
take up our fiscal 2013 annual report.
somewhat ahead of schedule at this point. So, I
think this is an ideal time to have a bit of a recess.
So, we're going to go ahead and do that, and not to
lose all of our time advantage, I'll ask everyone to
be back at 20 minutes to 12 o'clock, and at that
point, we'll reconvene and get going on the annual
report, and hopefully also at that point, we'll have
some scores, so tallies to report on these last two
programs. We are recessed.
(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the
record at 11:20 a.m. and resumed at 11:45 a.m.)
Chair Marks: I am calling the meeting back into
session. Thank you, everyone.
Before we move on to our discussion on the Fiscal
2013 annual report, I wanted to take a moment to
get back to you on the scoring for the few programs
we looked at prior to the break.
The first of course, being the Civil Rights Act
commemorative program.
On the obverse, I'll
chronological order.






Designs one and two received zero. Design three
received one.
Four received 12 points.
received one.
Six and seven received zero. Eight received seven.

I'll just give you context here.
Of the highest possible score, with 10 members
voting, is 30. So, that is the highest possible.
Sixteen is our threshold, 50+ percent that you need
to gain a recommendation.
So, going onto obverse design number nine, it
received zero. Obverse 10 received 24, and is the
Committee's indicated recommendation.
Design 11 received one. Design 12 received three.
Thirteen and 14 were both zero.
Design 15
received 12.
Moving to the reverse of the Civil Rights coin
program. Design one received five. Design two
received 25 of the possible 30 and is the
Committee's indicated recommendation.
Design three received zero. Design four received
11. Designs five, six and seven received zero.
Design eight received four points.
Design nine
received five points, and design 10 received four.
Moving onto baseball, I'm happy to report that
every design received points.
So, reverse -- I'm sorry, obverse -- well, they're all
Design one received a perfect score of 30, and is
the Committee's recommendation.
Design two received six. Design three received five.
Design four received five. Design five received four
points. Design six received seven. Design seven
received 10. Design eight received four points.
Nine received five. Ten received nine.
Design 11 received eight points. Design 12 received
five. Design 13 received five. Design 14 received
six. Design 16, 15 is missing, design 16 received
four points and design 17 received five.

I'd like to thank everyone for your contributions to
those scoring processes.
Member Jansen: Mr. Chairman, there was some
comment about a modification that we might want
to have a motion on, about the baseball glove.
Chair Marks: Yes, there was. Is there a discussion
and a motion in that regard?
Member Wastweet:
keep the leaves.

I'd like to make a motion to

Chair Marks: To what?
Member Wastweet: To keep the leaves.
Chair Marks: Explain. Keep the?
Member Wastweet: On design number one there
was a suggestion of removing the wheat leaves
from the mitt.
Member Olson: Do you need to make a motion to
keep them, once they're in there?
Chair Marks: No.
Member Wastweet: It's been suggested by the CFA.
Chair Marks: That they be removed? Okay, well,
we, indeed, could do a motion to affirm the wheat
leaves. Is that the proper -Member Wastweet: Sheaves.
Chair Marks:

Sheaves, sorry, I was mis-hearing

Member Olson: Was there some sentiment towards
maybe getting this worked up on this?
Member Wastweet: We could do that.
Member Olson: Somebody had mentioned that. I
would like to take them off, unless they can be
somehow separated from the stitching, and then put

them on there.
Member Stevens-Sollman: Mr. Chairman, I think
part of the discussion was for incusing the leaves
and the lettering, to make it look more like it was
embedded in the leather, and maybe that would be
the motion, Heidi. I'm not sure.
Member Wastweet: There was a suggestion by Don
and Steve of burning in or incusing -- not incusing
but -Mr. Everhart: For the lettering.
Member Wastweet:

For lettering only, not the

Mr. Everhart: But my suggestion is since the Hall of
Fame doesn't want the stitches, the CFA doesn't
want them, I personally don't like them myself, I'd
say get them out of there.
Member Wastweet: You don't like the wheat leaves
-- sheaves?
Mr. Everhart: It confuses the issue, as far as the
stitching is concerned. It does look like stitching.
That is what I thought at first.
I don't think it adds to the design. I think it
detracts from it. My suggestion would be to get rid
of it.
Mr. Meifert: I would second that. From the Hall of
Fame standpoint, I actually didn't realize that they
were wheat sheaves, until I saw the artist
We assumed that they represented laurel leaves,
which, you know, are a traditional symbol of
excellence and victory and a motif that plays very
strongly into the -- you know, the bronze plaques
that are immortalize at games Grates and
So, when I saw that they were wheat sheaves, I

was a little confused about what the tie is to
So, but you know, from our standpoint, I think it
busies up the design, you know, so, we would
recommend removing them.
Member Olson:

I'd make a motion that they be

Member Wastweet: That's a good point.
Member Bugeja: I would just like to say that -Member Wastweet:
I think that they could be
interpreted as either laurel leaves, and the fact that
those look more like laurel, then wheat, and it
makes a lot more sense, is that -Chair Marks: Okay, there is a motion on the floor to
-Member Jansen:
I'm going to second Mike, to
remove the wheat sheaves.
Chair Marks: It's been seconded.
further discussion?

Is there any

Member Uram: I think there was a comment raised
in the earlier voting comments about also correcting
the number two in the date 2014.
Chair Marks: Okay, let's do that, once we've dealt
with this motion.
Is there any discussion on the motion?
Okay, all those in favor, please raise your hand.
(Show of hands)
Chair Marks: Seven. Opposed? One? Bugeja?
Member Bugeja: I'm opposed.
Chair Marks: Okay, so, that's two, and I'm missing
a vote, and one abstention.

So, the vote is seven, two, one. So, it passes.
Okay, so, now, do I have a motion addressing the
numeral two?
Mr. Everhart: Gary, could I just say one thing
before we go forward on that?
Chair Marks: Yes, please.
Mr. Everhart: At the CFA meeting, one of the
suggestions was to clean up the lettering because it
looked kind of amateur and organic, and I
mentioned that we can do that. We can make the
lettering look much more professional and
mechanical, if that is what is needed.
So, we do have the latitude to change that, if need
Chair Marks: You know, my thought on that would
be, you know, we're all familiar with gloves that
have text kind of printed into them, whether it's the
brand of the glove or whatever.
I think it would be really cool if the lettering could
look like it's, you know, kind of tooled in there, into
the leather.
Mr. Everhart: We were discussing that, you know,
putting like a laser frosting to make it look like it's
worn into the glove and it's part of the Rawlings or
whatever they -- you know, whatever the brand is.
Chair Marks: Okay, yes.
Member Scarinci: Mr. Chairman, could I suggest a
motion, a very simple motion, because in addition
to that, I mean, there is some sentiment of curving
the 'In God We Trust', and maybe rather than us
designing the coin, maybe what we should do is
have a motion, since this is an important piece, and
I'd rather not take responsibility for it.
Why don't we just do a simple motion to allow the
Mint artist to take, you know, artistic license to

achieve the best result?
Chair Marks: Okay, I believe the motion would be
to recommend?
Member Scarinci: Correct.
Chair Marks: Yes, to recommend and -- state it
again, please.
Member Scarinci: To recommend that the Mint
artists be given the artist license to achieve the best
design result.
Chair Marks:
Okay, and it's been moved and
seconded, moved and seconded.
Is there any
further discussion?
Mr. Antonucci: It's the wrong sport, but isn't that a
Chair Marks: Okay, all those in favor, please raise
your hand.
Member Bugeja: Aye.
Chair Marks: And Michael Bugeja votes 'aye'. That
is a unanimous vote 10 to zero.
Member Uram: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to also
mention on obverse 10, if a motion would be
appropriate to have the 'In God We Trust' in the
Civil Rights coin, curved at the bottom, so that it's
not as linear.
Chair Marks: Okay.
Member Olson: I will second that.
Chair Marks: Okay, I'm going to give our motion
recorder a moment here. Got it?
Okay, so, the motion is on obverse 10, for the Civil
Rights dollar coin, that the words 'In God We Trust'
be curved around the lower rim of the coin.
Is there any discussion?

All those in favor, please

raise your hand.
(Show of hands)
Chair Marks: One, two, three, four, five, six, seven,
eight, nine.
Member Bugeja: Aye.
Chair Marks: And I think I heard Michael vote 'aye'.
Member Bugeja: Yes.
Chair Marks: That is unanimous vote, if I recorded
it correctly. Okay, thank you.
All right, I will also make a motion that the cauldron
appearing on the reverse, reverse two of the Civil
Rights dollar coin be enlarged to give it more of a
pronounced presence on the design.
Member Wastweet: I'd like to second that.
Chair Marks: It's been moved and seconded.
there any discussion on that motion?
Member Jansen: I think actually having it
lends to the severity, the strength, the power
flames, and so, I would encourage if it is
enlarged, that it not be enlarged so far
become the center of gravity of the flame.


of the
to be
as to

Chair Marks: As the one who made the motion,
that is certainly not my intent.
I think it's just to make it a little larger, so that it's
not missed and it's understood that it's a cauldron.
Certainly, I believe that the three flames need to be
the focal point for the design, and that is the intent
with which the motion is made.
Any further discussion?
Mr. Everhart: Gary, at the risk of going back to the
baseball, when I did a little design for that, I've
done one for the --

Chair Marks: Okay.
Mr. Everhart: -- flame and the -- just so you get an
idea of the size, it's not a lot, but I think it gives it
more of a stability and makes it look like there is a
chalice area that is holding it.
Chair Marks: Okay, we will pause for a moment, so
each member can get a look at this.
Member Wastweet: Yes, I think that's perfect.
brings in the balance of the elements.


Chair Marks: Yes, that's it. You nailed it. I'm
holding this motion on the table until people can get
a look at this.
Michael Bugeja, I'm sorry we can't share this with
you, but Don Everhart has created a vision of a
somewhat larger cauldron that really looks pretty
So, okay, so, the motion is on the table to enlarge
the cauldron, and as the member who made that
motion, I would indicate to you that what Don just
passed around to us is my intention with that
So, all those in favor, please raise your hand.
(Show of hands)
Member Bugeja: Aye.
Chair Marks: That's a unanimous vote. Thank you
very much.
Okay, is there any other business related to the
programs that we've reviewed this morning?
Member Wastweet: Gary?
Chair Marks: Heidi?
Member Wastweet: Who was it that suggested on
the same number two reverse, that the letters could
be incused in that ring? That was you?

Chair Marks: No, that was me. That was me.
Member Wastweet: That was you? Do you want to
make a motion to that?
Chair Marks: You know, thank you for following up
on that. I think so. Do you want to make that
Member Wastweet:

I'll go ahead and make that

Chair Marks: All right.
Member Jansen: State it again, please.
Member Wastweet: The motion is on Civil Rights
reverse number two, to incuse the curved letters
into that band.
Chair Marks:

Around the entire perimeter of the

Member Wastweet:
Right, raise the band and
incuse the letters in that band.
Member Jansen: Got it.
Chair Marks: Yes.
Member Bugeja: Second.
Mr. Everhart: Keep the texture on the border.
Member Wastweet: Yes.
Mr. Everhart: Just a real light texture.
Chair Marks: Okay, all right. Yes, right. Okay, the
motion is on the table to raise the perimeter band
around reverse number two for the Civil Rights
dollar coin, and then incuse the letters.
So, is there -Member Bugeja: Second.
Chair Marks:

It's been moved and seconded.


there any -- so, the motion was Heidi. The second,
Mike Olson.
Okay, any further discussion?
please raise your hand.

All those in favor,

(Show of hands)
Member Bugeja: Aye.
Chair Marks: Motion carries unanimously. Is there
anything further for the programs we looked at this
FY13 Annual Report
Okay, thank you very much. At this point, we will
go ahead and look at our fiscal year 2013 report.
There were some materials that I had sent out to
the membership on this matter, under Tab 10 in
your packet.
If you have that ready, what I wanted to do to
facilitate this discussion is to go through our fiscal
year 2012 report, and kind of use it as a launch pad
for what we want to do next year for fiscal 2013.
I'll just kind of go through the format, as it's laid out
in the report itself.
If you look at item two in our fiscal 2012 report, it
speaks of circulating commemorative, and the last
report, we recommended the American Liberty
commemorative coinage program.
The Committee is on record in a very strong way of
supporting that.
It's my assumption that the
Committee would want to keep that in this next
annual report, and I'm just going to move through
some of these, if you'd like to stop and talk about it,
please stop me.
The next item under circulating commemorative's is
our recommendation for 2014 concerning the 50th
anniversary of the Kennedy half-dollar.

Our recommendation there was to issue a 0.999
fine bullion version of the coin based on some
subsequent discussion, and I'm not sure that the
Mint can actually do 0.999 fine.
recommendation, we may want to discuss whether
we simply go with the 90 percent silver version of
the coin.
Is there any discussion on that? First of all, do we
want to leave this item in the report?
Member Scarinci: I honestly think that, you know,
metal, that composition is beyond the scope of the
I think our job, our mission is design, not metallic
Chair Marks: All right, that's a legitimate point.
Member Moran: Gary, in principle I agree with
Donald, but in terms of practicality, if you want to
ever get to a high relief, you've got to at least get
the sterling silver, which is 0.925, and 0.999 is an
easier metal to strike up, and that's the way it is.
Chair Marks: Yes, still, I think Donald's point is a
good one, and I'm sure the attorney would -- you
know, he's nodding his head at me.
If the attorney would -- Mr. Weinman would agree
with me.
Mr. Weinman: This question has come up before.
Our position in the past has been yes, that unless
there is a clear nexus between the two, that the
Committee's recommendation should stick to theme
and design.
Chair Marks: Okay, so, if there is nothing further to
consider on that, I'll consider that we got away with
it last year, and we'll just take it out of this next
report. I think we made our point.

Member Olson: I'd like to make a point.
Chair Marks: Yes, go ahead.
Member Olson: I think if we submit this -- I think
that this would be a significant benefit for the
collectors and it would speak to the design that for
these 2014 half-dollars, that the Mint mark be
placed on the reverse, as it was in 1964, the only
year that that has taken place before the Mint
marks were removed.
It would be a real tip of the hat to the 50th
anniversary and I believe it would be very much
appreciated by the collectors.
Chair Marks: Okay, I believe that bears to the
design, where the Mint mark is placed.
Member Jansen: I would second that thought. I
think that is akin to the VDB on the discussion we
had on the 2009 penny.
It's akin to really
celebrating the anniversary.
Chair Marks: Okay, with that then, is there any
need for further discussion on that or can we move
ahead on understanding the consensus on that
Okay, that's how I'll take the silence.
Okay, is there any other item that we might want to
talk about, related to circulating commemorative's?
Member Bugeja: Gary?
Chair Marks: Go ahead, Michael.
Member Bugeja: The postal service airmail one for
next year, of course, that's 2018.
Chair Marks:
We're talking about circulating
commemorative's and in a moment, we're going to
go on to the -Member Bugeja: Okay, I'm sorry.

Chair Marks: -- which I think is your item, Michael.
Member Bugeja: I'm sorry, Gary.
Chair Marks: No problem.
Member Bugeja: I apologize.
Chair Marks: Is there any further discussion about
circulating commemorative's?
Okay, that does take us down to the Section 3 of
our report, numismatic commemorative's.
As you undoubtedly are aware, some of the
programs that we might otherwise recommend have
already been filled with Acts of Congress.
So, at this point, the slots, if you will, that are open
for us to make recommendations would be 2016,
which last year, we had a recommendation for the
90th anniversary of the establishment of U.S. Route
66 and I'm going to go through the whole list, and
then we can circle back and talk about any of these.
Twenty-seventeen is an open slot, and last year, we
sesquicentennial of the acquisition of the Alaska
Territory in 1867, and then with this new report, we
have two open slots for recommendations and to
date, I have heard recommendations or have put
them forward myself, for three.
We have two that we want to most likely make. So,
out of those three so far, there is a
We'll have each member talk
about these, who have brought these forward, but a
commemoration of, I believe it's the centennial of
the U.S. Airmail Service.
There is the 100th anniversary of the end of World
War I, and then there is the issue of fallen
firefighters, which we've talked about before.
So, with that, I think if we move chronologically
through this, maybe that is the best way to

approach this.
Twenty-sixteen, would there be any feel that we'd
want to do something different than the 90th
anniversary of Route 66, and if you want to speak in
favor of Route 66, please go ahead.
Member Olson: Since that was my motion last
year, I will speak in favor briefly.
I think there is a lot of merit there. Since the
editorial was published, it is gaining a little bit of
traction. So, I think just in the sense of continuity,
I would make a motion that we leave that in place
and see if it gains success.
Chair Marks: At this point, to save motions, unless
there is motion to do something different, let's just
consider something established, unless we want to
do something different. Is there a desire to move
into a different direction?
Member Scarinci:
alternative to this?

Did you say there was an

Chair Marks: Not necessarily. I mean, the U.S.
Airmail and World War I, which have been
suggested for 2018, are date-specific. The only one
that is not date-specific would be fallen firefighters.
But as the one bringing that forward, I'm not
advocating that that be used to displace something
So, unless there is some direct desire to do
something for 2016, other than Route 66, then I'd
like to move to 2017.
Is there -- do we want to talk about doing
something else?
Okay, so, we go down to 2017. As I said, we
recommended the 150th anniversary of the
acquisition the Alaska Territory. Any desire to do
something different there?

Okay, we'll go down to 2018. Michael Bugeja, are
you prepared to talk about the Airmail proposal?
Member Bugeja: Yes, I am, Gary, if you would like
me to.
Chair Marks: Why don't you go ahead?
Member Bugeja:
Okay, the proposal for this
commemorative is about the 100th anniversary of
U.S. Airmail Service, and they assumed service
from the U.S. Army.
The interesting thing about this particular centennial
is that I am trying to tie this to the U.S. Postal
Service. It employs 574,000 workers. It's the third
largest U.S. civilian employer, behind the Federal
Government and Walmart.
We have just heard again that the Postmaster
General has reintroduced five-day mail service.
The problem with cancelling that service is that it
not only affects the Post Office, it affects rural areas
in Iowa, for instance, but most of all, the
cancellation of that service affects newspapers,
community newspapers, rural newspapers, who will
not be able to mail by special postal rate, their
What I wanted to make particularly clear is that
many journalism organizations are dead-set against
the cancellation of Saturday mail service.
The proposal that I have reminds everybody that
this tradition of Saturday mail service was
introduced by the first U.S. Postmaster General
Benjamin Franklin. He really understood the need
for the mail and the mail as the deliverer of
information, particularly his own newspapers.
So, what I am proposing here is also extraordinarily
lucrative for the U.S. Mint. If we could just step
back for a second, and consider that the distribution
outlets are in every town from towns of 200 to 300,

to Metropolis.
The Post Office now sells products from China. I'll
give you an example of that.
At least the Post Office here in Ames, Iowa has
these U.S. postal bags that you can buy to put
groceries, so that you don't have to recycle, and
those are made in China, and it's an embarrassment
to have products that the Post Office is selling, in
addition to stamps, that do not represent the United
States and the courageous airmail service of 1918
and forward.
My proposal also chronicles how there were 94
forced landings in the inaugural year. This just
speaks the dedication of the Post Office. It also is
tied into Benjamin Franklin and journalism and
information and particularly, in rural areas, with the
distribution in every particular town, and 574,000
postal workers.
Can you imagine if you walked into a Post Office,
and it said, "Buy a silver coin from the United States
and invest in Saturday mail service." I think you'll
sell out immediately.
That's all, Gary.
Thank you for the time and
opportunity. I appreciate it.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael.
intriguing proposal.

That's a very

The next two proposals, I've brought forward, and
I'll just cover these as quickly as I can.
We're scheduled for our lunch break at 12:30 p.m.,
with some important business right when we get
back after lunch, which I'm going to address before
we recess here.
But so, I'm going to -- you know, I'm going to try to
make this brief, and I'm going to ask everyone else
to consolidate your thoughts, and let's just get this
done and get out of here for lunch on time.

The first one I want to address is the fallen
You know that I've had this recommendation for you
in past years. It's been in some of our annual
I want to make sure you're aware that there is a
National Fallen Firefighters Memorial in Maryland.
It's been -- it was established by an Act of Congress
in 1992.
When they began building the memorial, they began
collecting names of firefighters who have fallen in
the line of duty since 1981 to date, with the 19 hotshot firefighters that were just recently lost from
the Arizona team, we're at nearly 3,600 individuals,
just since 1981, first responders on the fire side
that have fallen in protecting you and I and the
I think as coin collectors, most of you are aware
that in 1997 there was a commemorative silver
dollar issued to honor the National Police Officers
Memorial, which is located right here in the Capitol
I would ask, in putting this recommendation
forward, that the same recognition and honor be
given to those fallen firefighters and their families
and the communities.
I don't have to talk a lot about 9/11, to have
understood the significance of the lives lost there of
those first responders. I just think it's high-time,
especially with the loss of these 19 individuals here
just recently, that we honor these men and women
who put their lives on the line when they go to work
each day, to protect us and keep us safe.
They're the ones that come running when you have
a heart attack. They're the ones who come running
when your house is on fire. They're the ones that
come running when a loved one needs to be

So, I think that we simply need to do this
commemorative. If we don't put it in this year's
report, it won't go away from my lips. I'll bring it
back to you next year.
So, with that, I just would urge your consideration
for that program. It is not date-specific, and if the
Committee believes that with the -- with two other
date-specific programs for 2018, that you want to
go with those, I'll understand that, but I would like
some affirmation that we are sensitive to this issue
and we will consider it in the future.
The next program I want to talk about is the World
War I centennial. The end of the War, besides a
circulating commemorative, which I think most of us
are familiar with, which was the peace dollar, this
Nation has never recognized those individuals who
fought in that War, Americans who were involved.
We have never recognized them, as we have time
and again, other conflicts and the sacrifices other
individuals have made in other conflicts.
So, what I want to propose to you for 2018 is
somewhat unique. If you are familiar with the
history of the peace dollar, you know that it's
credited with its genesis from the ANA, and from
the Numismatist periodical that I think most of us
are familiar with.
commemorate the peace that came following World
War I, and to honor those who sacrificed and who
served in that conflict, and out of that came the
peace dollar.
So, although I would not normally recommend we
resurrect an old design, I'm going to at this point
recommend that, along with, and this would be a
two silver dollar program, so, we'd have a 2018
striking of the peace dollar in high relief, and then
we would have a modern design, commemorating
the centennial and recognizing the end or the peace
that came 100 years ago.

So, it would be kind of looking at the end of the
War, at the time that it ended, with the re-issue of
commemoration, a two coin set.
I think from a collector point of view, it would be a
home run. If you remember when the buffalo nickel
was issued in 2001 as a silver dollar, the sales of
that were off the chart. There was high collector
interest in that, both in uncirculated and proof.
So, I put that before you as a recommendation.
So, we need to deal with the three that we have in
front of us, and if there is a fourth, make yourself
Member Olson: I'd like to speak in support of
Gary's recommendations.
Gary has been gracious enough over the years, to
allow the firefighter proposal to be moved around,
to accommodate other date-specific proposals.
I think now it is time to give the firefighters their
due, and put it down as a recommendation of the
As Gary stated, I was thinking the same thing as he
was talking. Firefighters are much -- very similar to
the military. They go running in when everybody is
running away, and we all know what they do. I
don't need to repeat it here. Very deserving group
of individuals and I believe they should be noted as
such on the American coinage.
The other proposal of Gary's regarding the peace
dollar, what an exciting proposal.
When you take a look back at the Morgan dollar
series, it was suspended in 1904, nobody ever
thought they'd make them again.
When they
needed more silver dollars, they re-did one in 1921.
Makes for an interesting set. There is a gap of time

What an exciting proposal for collectors to be able
to continue their peace dollar set with the current
issue peace dollar, done in high relief, as it was
back in 1921.
Can't say enough good about that. I'm definitely a
buyer, and charge me what you want. I'm going to
buy one.
That is the numismatic side of the World War I, but
the just due of that is certainly, those folks have
commemorations of other Military battles, Military
groups, Wars, but for some reason, that group
never has been commemorated, and while there is
no longer anyone that is alive today, that can enjoy
being celebrated for the fact that they served during
that time, that is no reason to not do it.
So, my support, even though Michael Bugeja,
you've got some really good ideas there for the
Airmail coin, possibly that could be done at some
other point.
But the two proposals that we
discussed, I think are -- deserve merit.
Chair Marks: Just let me add that just for the
record, that there is a Bill currently introduced in
Congress, to commemorate World War I. It's not
structured exactly as I've recommended a program,
but it's HR-2366, if you want to look it up.
Also, I'll just say again that, you know, my heart is
in the firefighter proposal. I work -- I am the -- I
work with those guys as a city manager. Those
people are on my team. These firefighters, they're
on my team, and what they do for us is very
important, and it's an honor that is due them.
I understand we have three proposals. I think
Michael Bugeja's is a very good proposal. It's datespecific. I think he is right about the sales that
would come off of that.
So, I really want the Committee to make the right
choice this year, and if that is that you want to put

the firefighters aside and bring them back for next
year's report, I will understand that.
So, I want you to make the right decision.
make it just because I'm bringing it forward.


Member Moran: Gary, I've got a question for Greg.
Greg, on the peace dollar part of this proposal, do
you need authorization from Congress to resurrect
that design from 2018?
Mr. Weinman: We would not need permission from
Congress, because for a number of reasons.
Number one, it's been more than 25 years since
we've had a current design.
But it would be something that we'd want to vet for
political reasons.
Member Moran: When you say vet, does that mean
incorporate it in the Bill?
Mr. Weinman: Not necessarily.
Member Moran: Okay.
Mr. Weinman: But it's something that we would
want to -- we wouldn't do unilaterally.
Member Moran: Okay, I don't want to wax eloquent
on that. Most of us -- I have a 21-piece in my
collection and it's a beautiful design, and
uncirculated, when it's in high relief.
It's basically a pie pan, when it's not, but I can
imagine what it would be, if you did the mirrored
surface in the field and the frosted proof, and most
of us don't own a proof, very few of them around,
and all of them are what I call matte proofs.
We did not do the traditional proof with the 21-piece
dollar, and it would be spectacular.
Chair Marks: You know, Greg, your comment really
intrigues me.

Does that mean that a re-striking of the peace
dollar for 2018 is not necessarily falling into the
requirement of two commemorative programs?
Mr. Weinman:
record --

I'm not sure I want to go on the

Chair Marks: Is this like directly -Mr. Weinman: I am not sure I want to go on the
record with a legal opinion right now.
Chair Marks: Okay.
Mr. Weinman: But there are ways -- the way the -the way it's drafted, possibly not.
Chair Marks: I mean, does this fall in the same -possibly fall in the same category of Director Moy's
striking in 2009 -Mr. Weinman: Yes.
Chair Marks: -- of the Saint Gauden's –
Mr. Weinman: Yes.
Chair Marks: -- twenty-dollar?
Mr. Weinman:
A little different legal structure,
based on the way 31 USC is structured, but
potentially, but not -- I mean, it's something I am
not -- I don't want to be conclusive in this meeting.
Chair Marks: Okay, would it be -Mr. Weinman: But it's something I'd be happy to
look in to, if there is a direct question about it.
Chair Marks: Would it be appropriate for us to
include that idea in our report in a manner that is
not part of the two per year program?
Mr. Weinman: Let me -- if we're not -- if we're -we don't have a need to conclude it at this meeting.
Chair Marks: Okay.

Mr. Weinman: Let me research that and at least -Chair Marks: Okay.
Mr. Weinman: -- get the Committee an opinion.
Chair Marks: Okay.
Member Bugeja: Gary?
Chair Marks: Michael Bugeja, I think you know
where I am going with this.
Member Bugeja: I do. I just wanted to bring up
something numismatic on the peace dollar.
I've been searching frantically while we're talking,
but de Francisci's original peace dollar, the reverse
of that showed an eagle and a broken sword. Does
anyone recall that?
Chair Marks: Yes.
Member Wastweet: Yes.
Member Bugeja: And that was refused because it
was said that it made America look weak.
Well, he wanted it to show that the sword was
broken. I can't find it, to show you or send you a
link, but it's an interesting thing to consider. That is
-- nothing else, Gary.
Chair Marks: Okay, you know what? I'll tell you
what, I'm going to throw an idea out to the
Committee, and tell me what you think of it.
But given the time now, we've had a good exchange
here. If you have any other comments you want to
make quickly.
But I'm going to suggest that we come back to the
next meeting and actually make the decision on
these two pre-year commemorative's.
Member Scarinci: I just wanted to just to not only
help out my colleague at the bar, but you know, I

think your original idea is right on the money,
because there is a Bill in Congress now, for this.
If we recommend this proposal, I think we give
some fodder to House Members, you know, to
include it in their Bill, and give them support.
So, I think you know, rather than to go through,
you know, can we, should we, could we, it's in
Congress now. I mean, and if we can do it this
way, and get it through Congress the way you
propose it, I think your original idea is perfect.
Chair Marks: And you're right, the Bill is out there.
In fact, it's actually been put forward. The idea was
brought to Congress by an associate of the ANA.
I've been in contact with that person and they
would very much covet our support of the idea, and
they have indicated some flexibility in how the
program is put together. It's not put together the
way we're talking about it in the Bill.
But this is just a House Bill.
companion at this point.

There is no Senate

So, any other comments and -- it is my intention
that we should come back at the next meeting and
make some decisions, and not make them here.
Member Jansen:
I think that's a good way of
handling this. It will give us an opportunity to move
all this together.
But I also want to say, I like the proposal on the
Chair Marks: Okay, we've reached the time for our
lunch break. I'm going to -- we have an important
visitor immediately upon our coming back after
lunch. Congresswoman Sewell.
So, and she will have limited time to address us, so,
more than ever, I'm going to ask that the
Committee please, out of respect for the

Congresswoman, let's be back here in our seats at
1:15 p.m. Let's give her, her chance to be on the
record for us. It's an honor that she would come
here and share here recommendations with us.
So, again, please be back here promptly at 1:15
p.m. As soon as -- you know, if I have a majority
or a quorum in the room, I'm going to go ahead and
get the meeting started.
But with that, we are recessed for lunch.
(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the
record at 12:30 p.m. and resumed at 1:30 p.m.)
Chair Marks: Back on the record.
Member Bugeja: Yes, I'm here.
Chair Marks: Michael Bugeja, could you put your
phone on mute -Member Bugeja: Yes, I'm here.
Chair Marks: -- when you're not talking?
Member Bugeja: What was that?
Chair Marks: Can you please put your phone on -or your phone on mute when you're not talking?
Member Bugeja: Sure.
Chair Marks: Thank you.
16th Street Baptist Church Review
Director Peterson: My name is Dick Peterson. I'm
the Acting Director of the United States Mint, and I
have the honor and privilege to welcome some
special guests here to the Citizens Coinage Advisory
Committee meeting, and this meeting, we're
considering the candidate designs for the 16th
Congressional gold metal.
I have a point of personal privilege, that in my Navy

days, I served on the nuclear submarine the
Birmingham, and in the wardroom of that ship, we
had a little plaque, recognizing the victims of the
bombing. It's a pleasure to have you heard.
We have with us, I believe for the first time ever, a
sitting Congressperson, is addressing the Citizens
Coinage Advisory Committee, and I am pleased to
Birmingham, Alabama.
We have three members of the Birmingham Civil
Rights Institute with us, two of whom are sisters of
two of the four little girls.
Dianne Robertson Braddock, please raise your hand,
and Lisa McNair, and also we have Ahmad Ward.
So, there is very little that can be said. There is a
lot to be said, and I'm going to let you say it,
because you're going to rock.
Anyway, welcome, Congresswoman Sewell.
address us.


Congresswoman Sewell: I want to thank everyone
from the Mint. It's been a pleasure to work with all
of you.
I have to start by saying that as far as point of
personal privilege, I am very new member of
Congress. This is my second term. I hail from the
great City of Selma, Alabama.
I have the great privilege of representing the 7th
Congressional District of Alabama, which includes
Birmingham, Selma, parts of Tuscaloosa, “Roll
Tide”, for those fans out there, and Selma, my
home town.
My district is most notably known as the Civil Rights
District of Alabama, and I have the great pleasure
of being the first African American woman, and one
of two women in their own right, elected from the
State of Alabama, ever.

Alabama never had women elected in their own
right until 2010, and they got two, one Republican
and one Democrat, one black and one white, and
we're friends, and we have definitely changed the
flavor of the Alabama delegation.
I have to tell you that it is a personal note that my
very first Bill to pass Congress was this
Congressional Gold Metal Bill. I know that I stand on
the shoulders of many, and the fact is that while I
wasn't born when the bombing happened, the
sacrifices that your families have made, as well as
other sacrifices that have been made by so many,
really forged the path upon which I now -- the
journey I now take is made possible.
And so, it is with great pride that the first Bill that I
passed through Congress was HR-360, the
bestowing of the Congressional Gold Metal on the
four little girls who were victims of the bombing at
16th Street Baptist Church.
So, I am honored to be with you all today. I think
my heart is heavy because I know the magnitude
and the importance of this gold metal, not only to
the families represented here today, but to our
whole city and to our whole state, and it is an honor
to be before you.
Not really sure of how this proceeds beyond that,
but look forward to talking about the various
renditions. Is that right? Okay?
Director Peterson: Stay right there.
your question, how do we proceed.

To answer

We know you're on a tight time line. You need to
get back up to the Hill, and so, we would like to
hear your thoughts. The Committee would like to
hear your thoughts on some of the designs that
we've shared with you, and what time frame are we
talking about? I'm sorry?
Congresswoman Sewell: So, I was presented with I
guess, in your notebooks are probably the designs

that we were presented with, and I think that what
I've talked to the family members about, and I think
that all of us are in agreement, that there are
several things we want to make sure that are on the
I think that all of us really think that having a
silhouette form of the four little girls versus having
an actual image of their faces is best, because in
many ways, the four little girls were emblematic of
the sacrifices that were made by so many.
And so, having a silhouette of the faces
something that we all agreed on, and so --


(Off mic comments.)
Congresswoman Sewell: So, the silhouette that is
currently here, I think all of us thought was fine,
although it would be great if this silhouette looked
like four little girls instead of having sort of bigger
girls, and so that we would know that it was girls,
little girls, not, you know, they were young children,
not adults.
And so, but as far as the hands -- the joining of the
four hands, we thought was very special, and so,
our only thought about this silhouette was that it
should be more visually like children.
I think with respect to what is said around it, we
really didn't like the saying around it. We thought
saying, "Pivotal in the struggle for equality, pivotal
in the struggle for equality," was more of a stronger
statement on the coin.
And so, having their names on the front side of the
coin, we thought was -- it was important. We
talked about having their names go around the coin
and the saying in the center of the coin.
I think for me, everybody needs to understand the
flower. So, I wouldn't have a flower there, but I
think that -- looking at this one, the silhouette of it
is what we wanted to capture, not exactly this same

silhouette, but a silhouette similar.
Then on the back side of the coin, if we could point
to reverse 06(a), I guess.
Yes, okay, that's it, yes. Okay, and so, on the
reverse, we thought it was important to have Act of
Congress 2013 at the top. We liked the side view of
the church, especially the fact that you have this,
and it's very reminiscent of how the church looks
today, and we liked the four girls. We actually said,
"In memory of four girls killed in the bombing of the
16th Street Baptist Church," instead of just four
girls. We said 'in memory of', and it was more over
to the side.
The Act of Congress would be at the top, and at the
bottom, we wanted to make sure we had
Birmingham, Alabama.
So, the elements that we wanted to capture were
silhouette on the front. We liked the saying 'Pivotal
in the Struggle for Equality, Pivotal in the Struggle
for Equality."
We think it's important that we have the date, the
place, the state and the city, Birmingham, Alabama,
and Act of Congress, and so, we thought on the
back, having something that says, "In Memory of
the Four Girls Killed in the Bombing" would sort of
be able to address the actual -- what was pivotal
about that, about the struggle for equality.
Am I adequately reflecting everyone's thoughts?
Okay, so, you want me to be more specific.
So, Act of Congress at the top, the four -- the "In
Memory of Four Girls", because this would be scaled
back slightly. Still a side view, still a side view
scaled back slightly, sort of like -- is there an
example we could show them?
(Off mic comments.)
Director Peterson: Don could talk a little bit about

Congresswoman Sewell: Sure.
Director Peterson:
To make the church a little
smaller, so there is more -Mr. Everhart:
along --

Yes, you wanted to put more text

Congresswoman Sewell: I can't draw.
Member Stevens-Sollman: Excuse me, if you look
at reverse number 10, it might have your desired
Congresswoman Sewell: Right, so, scale that, so
that the words would go here. Act of Congress
would go at the very top, not here, but up at the
top, and Birmingham, Alabama would go down
So, the words, instead of having this big old flower,
the words would be "In Memory of the Four Girls
Killed in the Bombing of the 16th Street Baptist
Church". If you identify the church in this part, Act
of Congress at the top, Birmingham, Alabama.
Does that make sense?
Mr. Everhart: Yes, we can do that. No problem.
Congresswoman Sewell: Okay, this is the view of
the church that we want.
Mr. Everhart: Okay.
Congresswoman Sewell: And I guess -- okay, so, I
don't know if I've -- have I been pretty clear on the
front side?
(Off mic comments.)
Congresswoman Sewell: So, can we go back to
obverse one, I guess, the very first one?
So, just to be clear, we wanted a silhouette, one
that looks more like this, the little girl silhouette.

We thought these looked more like adults.
So, to the artist, Mr. Everhart, is that possible, that
you can have four -- a silhouette of girls, of little
girls -Mr. Everhart: Sure.
Congresswoman Sewell: -- not adults?
Mr. Everhart: Yes, we can do that.
Congresswoman Sewell: Okay, so, and then we
thought instead of -- did you want "Pivotal in the
Struggle of Equality" across like that, with the
names up there? Did you want the names?
I personally like the names around it. I do like that.
So, I personally thought that the names around the
coin looked better. So, if you look at -Member Jansen: Obverse 11.
Congresswoman Sewell: Yes.
(Off mic comments.)
Congresswoman Sewell:
So, the names going
around the outer, like 10, I'll just show 10, and
therefore, if you go back to the number one again,
instead of having the names in black, have "Pivotal
in the Struggle for Equality" across here.
Mr. Everhart: We can do all of that.
Congresswoman Sewell: No flowers, please.
Member Scarinci: Congresswoman?
Congresswoman Sewell: Yes.
Member Scarinci:

What did you think of obverse

Congresswoman Sewell: I personally really liked it,
a lot, but the family members liked number one

slightly better, and you know, look, I have learned
in the art of legislating, it's about making sausage,
and so, you know, I actually really like number two,
a lot.
But I can only speak for me.
What was your
thought about number two? About this?
Ms. McNair: I actually initially liked number two,
but I'd say that I agree with Dianne, what I didn't
like about it is, I like the silhouette better, than the
actual girls.
The problem was, there was no definition, not much
definition. It's not much difference in the way the
silhouettes look here.
Congresswoman Sewell: Well, that is the same for Ms. Braddock: So, it really was not too much of
definition or difference.
Congresswoman Sewell: Yes.
Member Olson: We've got two obverses here that
are numbered the same. This is one of the two
that's number 15. I guess we probably, 16 -- it's
the one with the broken window. Was there any
sentiment towards that particular -- keep going.
Keep going. Right there.
Was there any sentiment towards that particular
Congresswoman Sewell: I personally didn't like the
reference -- this big part of -- is that Jesus or
something coming out? I thought having the front
side be spiritual in some way was a good thing,
meaning, the glass -- stained-glass window type
thing that evokes spirituality was a good thing.
But I didn't really like the angel coming out in the -I didn't like that.
Member Olson: So, the concept of this might have

some interest, but just the -- maybe the mechanics
of the hand?
Congresswoman Sewell:
Right, or more like
obverse 13. Can we look at obverse 13? That is
the stained -- you see sort of the stained glass part
of it, which is much -- to me, invokes spirituality,
and I like that because I thought, you know, having
the silhouette or a form of the four girls would -some of it connoted spirituality.
I mean, I didn't like this too much. I thought this
would be more -- but that was my thought on that.
So, as far as going back to the one that you had, I
didn't like the hand of God. I didn't like that, and I
thought that the kids looked more Anglo than they
did black, in my opinion. Can we go back to the one
that you -- 15, I guess it's really 16, yes.
So, I thought that they were not representative of
little black girls. It looks to me, more Anglo, yes.
Are there others that -- and I know that I personally
didn't like the “love that forgives”. I know that that
was the sermon, that the Pastor was preaching that
But when I think of the bombing of the church, I
don't think of love. It was not an act of -- I don't
think of that. I think of reconciliation. I think of -but I don't think of, you know, love.
So, that is why I didn't choose any of the ones that
said the -- but “love to forgive”. I didn't get that.
I think it's important that it's a struggle, pivotal in
the struggle for equality and not justice, because
frankly, justice was delayed, right?
I mean, the fact of the matter is that we didn't get
the last of the Ku Klux Klan members until, you
know, 2004 or something. So, you know, and this
happened in 1963.
So, I thought that it was important not to say

'justice' but 'equality', because that is really what
the civil -- that's a portion of what the Civil Rights
Movement was about. Any other questions?
Mr. Norton:

First of all, Gary Marks is the

Congresswoman Sewell: Yes.
Mr. Norton: Distinguished panel here, appointed by
members of Congress and leadership, and also by
the Secretary of Treasury.
So, I wanted to recognize Gary Marks and his -Congresswoman Sewell: I want to recognize all of
you. Thank you for your service. This is awesome.
I couldn't imagine having the -- you know, I'll have
to look at all these different things, and having to
But I just think that if we can keep elements of the
imagery of the four girls and making sure that they
look like four little black girls, I think is important,
and that they look like children, that they were, and
not adults was a very important one.
You know, the family members felt very strongly
that it should say "Pivotal in the Struggle for
Equality", and I'm -- you know, so, I'll compromise.
So, that is fine with me.
Member Stevens-Sollman: Excuse me, but obverse
number 10 what -- okay, there you go.
Congresswoman Sewell: Ten?
Member Stevens-Sollman: Nine, on nine, I'm sorry,
nine. What is your feeling about the silhouettes
here? Are these more to your definition of what -Congresswoman Sewell: Yes.
Member Stevens-Sollman: -- the silhouette should

Congresswoman Sewell: Yes.
Member Stevens-Sollman: Okay, yes.
Congresswoman Sewell:
like --

I mean, I think it's more

Member Stevens-Sollman: Yes, they look -- they're
smaller in age, yes.
Congresswoman Sewell: Yes, I agree. I absolutely
Member Stevens-Sollman: Okay, thank you.
Congresswoman Sewell: Don't like the -Member Stevens-Sollman: No, no, no.
Congresswoman Sewell: -- the Liberty Statue.
Member Stevens-Sollman: My thought -- I know
that I'm probably speaking out of turn right now,
but since we have you.
If we had something of obverse 15, which is the
leaded glass, and we had these little girls walking
into that situation of the bombed out glass, is that
something your constituents would feel more
comfortable with?
Congresswoman Sewell:
something like that.

I would love to see

Member Stevens-Sollman: You know, I don't think
these little girls belong in that.
Congresswoman Sewell: No.
Member Stevens-Sollman: But I do like the fact
that it's representing, in an abstract way, the
(Off the record comments)
Congresswoman Sewell: She is not saying -- can
we go back to 15, obverse 15?

Member Stevens-Sollman: No.
Congresswoman Sewell: Yes. No?
Member Stevens-Sollman: Sixteen.
Congresswoman Sewell: That's it, that's it. So, I
agree that this is way too busy. Like, you have -having that Jesus, I don't like that, all right. We
know that we don't like the flower. But I don't think
if you -- I don't know if I would mind if it looked -- if
the glass was like obverse 13, meaning really look
like a -Member Stevens-Sollman: A glass.
Congresswoman Sewell:
window --

-- like a stained glass

Member Stevens-Sollman: Right.
Congresswoman Sewell:
-- versus a shattered,
whatever is going on here. Yes, I don't know if I -you know, I just think it needs to be less busy. It
needs to be clean, yes.
Member Stevens-Sollman:
I personally like the
silhouettes of number nine, because this -- it's small
and simple, and if we could impose those
silhouettes on some other -- because then we have
the little girls, and then the obverse -- the reverse
can have more information.
It's just something to consider. Thank you. Thank
Chair Marks: Okay, are there any other members
who might like to ask the Congresswoman a
question? Heidi?
Member Wastweet: Some time ago we had a phone
meeting with some of the representatives from the
church, and we talked about these very topics,
before we started designing these at all.
I don't know if you've read a transcript of that

Congresswoman Sewell: I have not.
Member Wastweet:
Okay, in that meeting, we
talked about the church would like to represent the
four girls somehow, but they talked about how the
girls represented more, a bigger meaning. It wasn't
just about those four, but they really wanted to
convey the message of what they represented
symbolically -Congresswoman Sewell: Yes.
senselessness of it, and how difficult it would be to
portray portraits of them.
So, what we suggested in that meeting is, we would
represent them symbolically, like with flowers.
Flowers are very innocent and delicate, but yet they
have a life, and that life comes back every Spring.
And so, that is why we encouraged the artist to do
some other topics, rather than trying to do actual
physical literal girls. So, we suggested using the
names, so that those particular girls are
remembered, but yet, their tragedy was depicted
symbolically with the flowers.
So, that is why we have some of these -Congresswoman Sewell: Okay.
Member Wastweet: -- images with flowers, because
like you said, each of these silhouette images, they
have problems, like you were talking about how the
sideways ones, they weren't distinct enough, and
these are not young enough.
Congresswoman Sewell: These are much better
than the first ones, that were not young enough.
Member Wastweet: And there was another one
with the doves, they're very beautifully drawn, but
they're not the right girls. They're different girls,

and so, we run into a little stumbling block with
each one.
One of our challenges, also not to be ignored, is the
time frame.
Congresswoman Sewell: Yes.
Member Wastweet: We're on a very tight time
crunch, and all of these discussions are taking this
from this and this from another, and like Don said,
we can do those things, but maybe not on the time
line that we're trying to achieve.
So, if there is any wiggle room on that time line, we
could push back, we go back to the artist and do
some of these things that you suggest, or we could
work with what we have.
But I'm afraid that making too many suggestions -and we run into in the Committee often, is we try to
avoid this design by committee, and we try to work
with what we have, or we say, "This is not working,"
and we go back to the drawing board and let go of
that deadline.
Congresswoman Sewell: Well, just my thought. I
personally didn't -- I didn't get the symbolism of the
flower, and personally, I was -- I didn't -- I don't
think that -- I'll have to -- I have like four degrees,
and so, if I didn't get that, I don't think a lot of
people will get that either.
Member Wastweet: And like you said -Congresswoman Sewell: So, all I asked is that -Member Wastweet: Like you said with the daises, it
didn't make sense because there weren't four of
them. There has to be four flowers, to represent
with the names.
Congresswoman Sewell: I don't like the flowers.
Member Wastweet: Okay.

Congresswoman Sewell: I didn't get that.
Member Wastweet: Okay.
Congresswoman Sewell:
I would rather have
figures that really don't look like all the little girls
than -- I mean, I guess with the -- I understand -- I
want to respect the time frame, because we know
that you're pushing to try to get it so that we have a
coin that we can present before the actual 50th
anniversary, which is on September 15th of this
Member Wastweet: So, that is an important date.
Congresswoman Sewell:
I get that that is the
driving force and should be.
So, having said that, if I -- I would -- can we go
back to obverse one? One-A? One-A?
So, if we had to live with something, then having
"Pivotal in the Struggle for Equality" up there, can
we get rid of this?
The names would be like this or this, I guess. I
mean, that is -(Off the record comments)
Congresswoman Sewell: They have one with the
names around it. What she's saying is that for him
to go and sketch something differently, would take
time, is what they're saying. I like that. Can you
do that?
Participant: You got it.
(Off the record comments)
Congresswoman Sewell: So, they haven't called
votes yet, have they? They did call? Okay, all
So, they've called votes. So, how much time would
it take to do that, Mr. Everhart?

Mr. Everhart: We could have the artist revise that
probably in a day or two.
Congresswoman Sewell: So, it wouldn't take us
that far off of our time frame?
Mr. Everhart: I don't think so.






Mr. Everhart: Yes, I mean, the obverse is a fairly
simple sculpt. You know, we can do that really
quickly. The reverse is going to be a little bit more
involved because of the building.
But it is still -- it is not going to be a huge task, I
don't think.
Congresswoman Sewell:

Well, we would be most

Mr. Everhart: We'll give it a try.
Congresswoman Sewell:
I know that we're up
against a deadline, and I want to just again, on
behalf of all of us here, thank you for listening to
our suggestions and for doing this in a timely
fashion, so that we would have a coin ready for
presentation by the 15th anniversary.
Chair Marks: Congresswoman, thank you so much
for coming and sharing your thoughts.
appreciated and very helpful. Thank you.
Congresswoman Sewell: Thank you.
Director Peterson: And Congresswoman, I'd just
like to thank you again, and the men and women of
the United States Mint are very excited about this
program, and we commit to get this time line met,
and so, we're going to deliver a beautiful coin, and
we'd like to thank you for your passion, which is
obvious, and for sponsoring legislation.
certainly something that the country needs to
remember and commemorate in this way.

Congresswoman Sewell: Thank you.
Director Peterson: Thank you for being here today.
Congresswoman Sewell: Thank you.
(Off the record comments)
Chair Marks: All right, okay, at this point, I'd like to
circle back to our staff report. When the Acting Mint
Director comes back in, I'll recognize him for
additional comments.
But in the meanwhile, April, if you could provide us
your report.
Ms. Stafford: Sure.
Chair Marks: It would be much appreciated.
Ms. Stafford: Absolutely.
Chair Marks: Thank you.
Ms. Stafford: Thank you. On May 24, 2013, the
President signed Public Law 113-11, awarding a
Congressional Gold Metal to Addie Mae Collins,
Denise McNair, Carole Robertson and Cynthia
Wesley, to commemorate the lives they lost 50
years ago in the bombing of the 16th Street Baptist
Church, an event that served as a catalyst for the
Civil Rights Movement.
The legislation calls for designs with suitable
emblems, devices and inscriptions, and we work
closely with the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute on
the designs and consulted with available family
Following the presentation of the metal in
September, the metal will be given to the
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute for display.
So, that is the background. Did you want to go
onto the designs, Mr. Chairman, or would you like to
pause for the Acting Director?

Chair Marks:
Acting Director, do you have
additional comments?
Do you have additional
Director Peterson: I do not. I think the process for
rest of this design, from what the Congresswoman
mentioned to me out in the hall, is that we want to
engage with the family and the Civil Rights
organizations in Birmingham, as much as possible
as we go forward and comment on this.
Chair Marks: Sure, you bet.
you proceed?
Ms. Stafford: Thank you.
obverse designs.

Okay, so, why don't

So, we'll start with the

Obverse one and one-A, these designs feature the
silhouette of four young girls representing those
killed on September 15, 1963. Their names are
incused across the raised image of the figures, two
daisies symbols of innocence and youth are beside
their names.
The obverse one inscription 'People All Over the
World Turned Around' is paraphrased from the song
'Birmingham Sunday', a piece written about the
Obverse one-A's inscription "Pivotal in the Struggle
for Equality' was recommended by the sisters of the
two girls.
Obverse one-A, as we've discussed, is the liaison's
preferred design, and I think we have received
additional information from Representative Sewell,
which included the suggestion to remove the daisies
on one-A, perhaps place the names of the girls
around the perimeter and move the inscription
'Pivotal in the Struggle for Equality' into the middle
of the design.
Obverse two, this design features the silhouettes of
four girls with the names along the edge. This was
the CFA's preferred design for the obverse

Obverse three features four red roses symbolizing
the martyrdom of the girls to social justice.
The single word 'sacrifice' is inscribed at the top and
the girls names are placed over the stems of the
In obverse four, the four young victims of the
bombing are shown in silhouette, climbing the steps
to the 16th Street Baptist Church.
Obverse five shows a little girl emblematic of all four
of the girls who died on September 15, 1963, about
to enter the 16th Street Baptist Church.
clutches her doll here, symbolizing the innocence of
Obverses six, seven and eight features four young
girls faces, juxtaposing the sweetness and
innocence of the victims, with the horror of the
bombing, as represented by the broken glass.
In design seven and eight, the girls are also seen in
silhouette at the bottom of the designs.
In design eight, stars shine in their hearts. So, here
we had six, seven and eight.
Obverses nine and ten, Liberty and Icon of Freedom
and Welcoming Spirit is depicted with a tear running
down her face, while the four girls are seen in
silhouette at the bottom of the design. This is nine
and 10.
In obverse 11, four young girls, approximately the
same ages of those killed at 16th Street Baptist
Church release a dove, a symbol of peace and
healing. 'The Love that Forgives' is inscribed in the
bottom of the design, the title of the sermon
scheduled for the morning for September 15, 1963.
Obverse 12. This design features an empty pew
covered with debris from the blast, used by the
artist to reference the children through their

conspicuous absence. On the pew is a doll, bereft
of its owner, included by the artist to underscore
the victim's passing in an allegorical and hopefully
non-graphical manner.
The design is inscribed with the girls names and
September 15, 1963.
Obverse 13 depicts close-up silhouettes of the four
little girls in front of a stained glass window and
below, an open scroll bearing the inscription '16th
Street Baptist Church' and 'September 15, 1963'.
The artist made the girls images translucent to
convey their tragic fate.
Obverse 14 depicts four young girls with heads
bowed and hands folded in a position of prayer.
September 15, 1963 is incused in a single camilla
bud, the state flower of Alabama, and marks the
location of the event.
The inscription 'This Was the Awakening' is a phrase
used by Walter Cronkite, when he was interviewed
for the Spike Lee documentary on the event, a
sentiment also echoed by the flowering camilla bud.
Obverse 15 shows four girls entering the 16th
Street Baptist Church. A bouquet of four camilla
buds encircle the image, symbolic of the four lives
cut short.
Obverse 16, four young girls are shown walking to
church on the morning of September 15th. The
background shows the stained glass window
damaged in the bombing, now known as 'faceless
The artist notes that the hands of Jesus are
positioned at approximately
Member Moran: 22, the time the bomb detonated.
Obverse 17, this design shows four young girls in
silhouette and represents the girls killed in the 16th
Street Church bombing. Daisies fall over the image,

symbolic of innocence and youth. The names of the
victims are inscribed along the border of the coin.
Those are the obverse designs.
the reverse designs?

May I proceed to

Chair Marks: Yes, please.
Ms. Stafford: Reverse one and two, these designs
show a graphic representation of the churches sign.
The inscription 'The People Keep Singing of
Freedom' is paraphrased from the song 'Birmingham
In reverse two the shadows of daisies fall across the
design, representing the youth and innocence of the
four little girls.
Reverse three features a stylized heart with the
inscription 'Love Forgives All'.
The artist notes that in this design, four diamonds,
representing the four little girls, are created by the
inter-lacing bands and circling the heart, and in the
artist's words, binding it together with love.
The heart is surrounded by two wings, conceived by
the artist as a wing of comfort and protection and
wing of forgiveness, and is based on the churches
stained glass windows.
Reverse four, five, six, six-A and seven depict
various views of the 16th Street Baptist Church.
So, here is four, five, six, six-A and seven, and if we
could go back to six-A, this was the liaison's
preferred design, and includes the recommended
inscription with the addition of 'In Memory Of'. It is
also the CFA's preferred reverse design, and I would
note from having Representative Sewell speak to us
earlier, there was suggestions about minimizing the
size of the church to allow for the full inscription,
again, to include 'In Memory Of', adding Act of
Congress 2013, and removing the date and
replacing it with Birmingham, Alabama.

Reverse eight. The design shows a church arch
featuring the silhouette of the four little girls.
The artist chose to juxtapose the ordered symmetry
at the top of the composition with a violent and
disorganized lower half and features the date
crudely inscribed on a shard of glass.
The inscription 'The Love that Forgives' is the
central element of the composition being the
subject of the sermon that day.
Reverse nine features a view of the church with
linked arms beneath, representing the subsequent
awareness and advances of the Civil Rights
The top of the design features the inscription
'Beacons of Light for Freedom' with four points of
light in the sky, while the 'Love that Forgives' is
inscribed along the bottom.
Reverse 10 features a view of the church with four
magnolia flowers symbolizing the four little girls.
The flowers are a reference to the last stanza of
Langston Hughes' poem inspired by the event,
which reads, "Four little girls might be awakened
some day soon by songs upon the breeze as yet
unfelt among magnolia trees."
Finally, reverse 11, the design's major device is four
white calla lilies which are often associated with
purity, beauty and innocence.
The artist notes that the flowers arrangement is
reminiscent of candles at a church alter.
inscription 'The Love that Forgives', the title of the
sermon that was to be given that morning, it also
We do have obverse and reverse pairings, as
suggested by some of the artists, as the Committee
requested. So, we can show those, as well.
Chair Marks: Yes, please go ahead.

Ms. Stafford: All right, so here, we have obverse
one and reverse one.
Obverse two and reverse six. Obverse three and
reverse four. Obverse four, reverse seven.
Obverse five, reverse eight. Obverse eight, reverse
nine. Obverse 12 and reverse 10. Obverse 13 and
reverse 11, and that is all of the pairings. Mr.
Chair Marks: Thank you, April. Are there any
technical questions that we'd like to get addressed?
Member Wastweet: I'm sorry, did you say what the
CFA preference was for the obverse?
Ms. Stafford: Yes, it was two.
Member Wastweet: Thank you.
Chair Marks: Others?
Member Jansen:
Did the CFA get a similar
opportunity to debrief with the opinions from the
Ms. Stafford:
They did not hear from
Representative Sewell, but the information that we
preferences were communicated, yes.
Member Jansen: So, we're to interpret the CFA's
actions as comprehending, the same thing we heard
Ms. Stafford: I wouldn't speak on that, because I
did not hear Representative Sewell speak.
Member Jansen: Okay.
Ms. Stafford: But they did -- they did hear the
liaisons preference for obverse was one-A.
Member Jansen: Okay, thanks.

Chair Marks: Are there other technical questions?
Member Jansen: One question. Is it possible to put
the names around the edge? Yes, yes, as in the
third side.
Mr. Antonucci: It's possible.
Member Jansen: But not a production approved
technique at this point?
Mr. Antonucci: No, we're just in the research and
development on that.
Member Jansen: Probably not -Chair Marks: Given that the -Member Jansen: Probably not a good idea?
Chair Marks: Right, given the time line, it might not
be the best, okay.
Member Jansen: Never mind.
Chair Marks: All right, what is being passed around
to you right now is the sketch that Don did, while
the Congresswoman was here.
There was so much detail put to it, I asked staff to
go ahead and copy this off, so you could each have
this in front of you.
For the purposes of our discussion, I'd like you to
label the obverse number 18, and the reverse
number 12.
Rather than us going through a discussion where
we're describing all of these changes, I want to just
kind of codify them, if you will, into our discussion,
along with the other designs presented to us.
Okay, are there other technical questions?
Okay, before we move onto our own discussion, I'd
like to ask if our guests have any comments they
would like to make to us?

(Off the record comments)
Chair Marks: Are you speaking of this?
Ms. McNair: Yes.
Chair Marks: Okay.
Ms. McNair: I think that's it.
Chair Marks: Okay.
(Off the record comments)
Ms. McNair: Okay, I think that is better, okay.
Yes, Dianne and I have done a lot of talking about
what we'd like to see in this, and this does reflect
quite a bit of what we discussed, just about
I'll go over -- is it okay if I say each thing out loud?
Chair Marks: Please, go ahead.
Ms. McNair: So as to make sure that she is in
agreement with me and we're on the same page,
because I want to respect her.
On the -- well, start at the top. On the reverse, Act
of Congress on the top, 2013, we've talked about
that being -- because we -- she and I did, when we
sat down and went on the internet and looked at a
whole bunch of other ones, to see what was kind of
standard, and we understood that that was
standard. So, we agreed with that.
Then the church being smaller like the Congress
Lady said earlier today, we talked about that. We
like the look of that church, but just being smaller
because we had wanted the words on there about
the girls, and then at the bottom, Birmingham,
Alabama, so, people who would see it in your nice
lobby, like you have it displayed would know where
it took place, and what happened with this incident.
The only that is new here, Dianne, we had four girls

were killed in the bombing of 16th Street Baptist
Church. The Congress Lady mentioned 'In Memory
of Four Girls Killed in the Bombing of the 16th
Street Baptist Church'. So, the words 'in memory'
is the new thing on that. I don't have offense to
that, but I mean, you let me know what you think
about that.
Ms. Braddock: My concern is that we do want to try
to get this done by, you know, Sunday, September
15th, and the ones obverse 06, is what you sent us.
You had already -- 06A, that you had already
worked this up.
So, before today, we were all in agreement with this
one, and I -Participant: Excuse me, which one?
Ms. Braddock: -- I do want to respect the time line,
in order to get this done, and I think that is Dr.
Pijeaux, who is the Chair of the Birmingham Civil
Rights Institute, also is very concerned about
getting the -- having the celebration year and
getting the coin to Birmingham by the 15th.
So, everybody until today, this is new to me, but up
until today, we had all agreed on four girls were
killed in the bombing of the 16th Street Baptist
Church, and you had this because we sent it to you.
Mr. Ward: The only reason that I am here on behalf
of Dr. Pijeaux is just to strongly affirm that
whatever the family agrees to, we are in full support
of what they family wants to see on the metal.
So, whatever Ms. McNair and Ms. Braddock decide,
that is where -- that is the direction that the
Birmingham Civil Rights Institute would like to go
Chair Marks: Okay, thank you very much. At this
point, I think we'll go onto our Committee
discussion, and the first member I'd like to
recognize is Michael Bugeja, who is on the

telephone today. So, Michael.
Member Bugeja: Thank you very much, Gary. It's
quite an honor to look at all these designs and to
give opinions on each one, I guess we're going to
do, obverse and reverse.
All of the inscriptions that were preferred by the
family, of course, I want to see. I'll just talk in
general about a few of the coins, so that everyone
else has more of a chance to weigh in on them.
I thought the preference of obverse number two,
which was preferred by the CFA, as I understand,
Ms. Stafford: That is correct.
Member Bugeja: Is that correct? Looked an awful
lot like our Girl Scout one, and I don't know if that
makes -- I would have probably liked it more if it
didn't remind me of a coin we just did.
I too, had the idea of using edge lettering to make
this spectacular, but I don't think the time allows us
to do that.
I wanted to say that it's not only in memory of, it's
in celebration of their lives, however short and what
awakening they arose in others.
So, on some of the designs that I will not speak
about, basically show aftermath of bombing or
things of that nature.
I like the design motif of obverse 08. The thing that
concerned me about 06, 07 and 08, was the
number four, and the reason I say that is, we're
dealing with a lot of dates here.
First of all, the date of the metal, the date of the
incident, the four girls, and I'm not sure the four
over-shadows the silhouettes in meaning.
But that said, it is a fetching design.

If we go to obverse number nine and obverse
number 10, I wanted to -- I would prefer 10, but I
wanted to say something about personifying icons.
If this -- for those who were not at the earlier -privy to the earlier conversation, we had an eagle
that was personified holding the scales of justice,
now, we have a statue that is crying.
Not to argue in favor of this or against it, but if you
would hold that icon of Liberty up, with the tear,
which sentimentalizes the incident, it personifies
Lady Liberty weeping over the lack of inequality,
that is pretty obvious, what that personification
But if you take away the tear, it is America stands
behind the four girls. It's subtle, but it's there.
The obverse number 11, I believe silhouettes are
better. So, I don't want to speak too much on that.
Obverse number 13 is a very smart stylistic design.
I am not sure about the grid and whether or not
that represents the stained glass, as we might like
The four girls in prayer, I am not particularly fond
of, because this was the awakening as -- I mean, I
like that. I'm a journalist. I like Walter Cronkite,
but there just seemed to be too much going on
there, too many symbols conflicting with each other.
The obverse number 15, it took me -- and I knew
what -- I knew what the window, the blow out
window was, it's a very famous photograph in
journalism, and it took me a while to realize what
that was, because it is too close to other iconic
images that do not represent Jesus.
Would you like me to go to the reverses, Gary?
Chair Marks: Yes, please go ahead.
Member Bugeja: Okay, and I love this depicted
design of number three.
I'm not sure 'Love

Forgives All', as was said by the Congresswoman, is
the appropriate logo.
As for a reverse, number four has what I consider
the right size of the church, in order to get the text
the way we might want it, and the way the families
might want it.
The designs that kind of caught my eye are the last
three. There is something intriguing about nine.
I'm not sure it goes with any obverse, however.
I like the idea of the foundation of inter-locking
hands and holding up the church and the icons of
life for freedom.
Now, this is a coin, and I don't know if -- I know
that -- is Bill McAllister there from Coin World?
Chair Marks: Yes.
Member Bugeja: Bill knows I am a journalist, and
we have, every year at Iowa State University, a
First Amendment day, where we celebrate all of our
freedoms, and our aspirations for equality, and this
is the kind of image that journalists would like to
celebrate the sacrifice of these four girls.
But I'm not saying that is my favorite. It's the -my personal favorite, but I'm not sure it represents
what others want, and I want to -- 10 is acceptable
to me.
I think the reason why 10 is acceptable to me. I
think the reason why 10 is acceptable to me is
because it's iconic. It's not just a picture of a
church, and that is why kind of like number nine, as
Number 11 to me is very intriguing, say for the
'Love that Forgives', because it reminds me of the
elegance of the New Rochelle Commemorative, the
reverse of the New Rochelle Commemorative, long
I thought that it was very stylistic and
symbolic for the reverse of a coin.

That is all, Gary, and thank you for acknowledging
my view points. Thank you.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. At this point, I'd
like to go to Mike Ross.
Member Olson: I'll be very brief, and with the main
thrust of my remarks being that I think the 'Pivotal
in the Struggle for Equality' is the exact language
that should go on the coin, because it gets the
historical moment just right.
It wasn't the awakening. The awakening would be
the early days of the Civil Rights Movement. It's
not about the 'Love that Forgives'. It was the -contrasted with the ringing rhetoric on the march on
Washington, this dark moment where the Nation
realized just how intractable the problem was, and I
think it's pivotal in the struggle for Civil Rights, in
the struggle for equality, is really, the appropriate
I want to echo the point that we should make
strongly, since the CFA picked it, that the obverse
two not only looks like a coin we just did, but it's
almost an exact replica of the Girl Scouts logo, and
therefore, I think it's not the right choice.
So, I am in favor of the 12 and 18, as sketched.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Mike. We'll go to Donald,
Member Scarinci: First, I just want to, you know,
congratulate Don and his team, for giving us some
really extraordinary designs, and you know, in a
perfect world, you know, there are some designs
here that in combination, you know, would just
make a magnificent metal.

as the Congressman says, you know, reminded
or certainly reminded me, making legislation
building compromise is like making sausage.
know, you don't want to see it being made.
just want to enjoy it at the end.

I think that, you know, as someone who has been
here on this Committee for a very, very long time, I
guess eight years, I have never seen a member of
Congress come to this Committee on behalf of a
piece of art or a metal or a cause, and address us.
I have never seen that.
I also have never seen the Mint be as responsive as
they have been in an instance where they're about
to produce a metal in less time that any private Mint
in the country would be able to produce it, you
know, which is -- you know, this is Government
doing something, you know, faster and looking at
these designs, better than any private Mint in the
And I think those two things in combination with the
third thing, which is that, you know, what I think we
have seen now repeatedly over a period of time is a
pattern of really listening to us, listening to the CFA,
suggestions and coming back to us with
modifications, even though their time frames, you
know, make that difficult.
For those of us who were here in the old days, you
know, when we got yelled at for not meeting their
deadline, you know, this is a radical -- this is a
radically new experience.
I say those things, I say all these things to make a
suggestion that, you know, you've never -- you
know, those who've known me a while have never
heard me make before. You may never hear me
make it again, but I think given the -- you know,
given the time frame of this metal, given the
sensitivity and the obvious interest in this metal,
you know, with a Congresswoman who represents
our Nation, coming here to talk about this, taking
the time out of her day, which is extraordinary on
Capitol Hill, to do this, I think that, you know, that
not withstanding the fact that maybe there are
other designs that I would like to argue for and
debate, I think for all of the reasons I stated, I'd

like to recommend that we go with obverse 18,
reverse 12, with the freedom -- with a grant of
artistic freedom for the Mint staff to design this
metal the way the Congresswoman and her
constituents are happy with, within the time frame
and the narrow time frame that they have, and not
constrain them by anything, you know, that we
might do here today.
This is a one-time thing. I am not -- you're not
going to hear me do this again. It's a one-time
thing, but I think, you know, the one thing the
Congressman said, you know, this is all about give
and take, and there's been a lot of giving, you
know, from the Mint, to us, and I'd really like to
give this back, and give them the freedom to do
this, and to do it, you know, the way it needs to be
done, in the time frame it needs to be done,
recognizing how extraordinary it is.
Chair Marks: Are you done?
Member Scarinci: Yes.
Chair Marks: Okay, thank you.
Director Peterson: Can I just comment on this?
Chair Marks: Yes, please.
Director Peterson: On what Donald said, because I
see a lot of digging for the designs here.
The numbers again, and can we pull them up on the
Ms. Stafford: Absolutely, and actually, we wanted
to take a moment. We're referring, or a few people
have referred to obverse 18 and reverse 12, which
was the sketch that was circulated earlier by Don
But just for the record and to ensure consistency
when we have all of the recommendation letters
that we put in the packet to the Secretary, I would
just like to note that what we're calling obverse 18

is really obverse one-A, with the revisions as
discussed and recommended, and reverse 12 is
really reverse six-A, which had previously been
adjusted in consultation with our liaisons with the
modifications we discussed, as well.
Chair Marks: It was my intent of labeling those as
obverse 18 and reverse 12, so that we wouldn't
have to spend time talking about the others and
how we've modified them, that there was just as
simple go-to image, so we could simplify our
Director Peterson: I understand. I just -- the CFA
doesn't know of an 18 or a 12, and so, as we write
up our package, we'll probably have to refer to the
original designs, modified as discussed by the -Chair Marks: Okay.
Director Peterson: -- the visitors today.
Ms. Sullivan: We're just trying to make it easy to
go through the Secretary very smoothly, that it all
makes sense.
Director Peterson: Understood.
Ms. Sullivan: Just for paperwork purposes.
Director Peterson: And Bill, I am glad you just
walked in because I heard you ladies say, and I
want to understand your expectations, that the
objective of -- is to have the gold coin in
Birmingham on the 15th of September, and I don't
know what is being planned.
But in order for that to happen, Congress has to
present the gold metal before that date, so that
they can get down there overnight or whatever, and
so -- and the speaker selects the timing and there is
lots of things that come into play on all of that.
I just want to make sure you're aware, because I
think some of us may have been working to -- we're
trying to get this done by Labor Day, and so, that

there is latitude and discretion, as to when and
where it is for the presentation.
Do you know if the speaker's office is aware of the
desire to have this in Birmingham on the 15th?
Mr. Norton: No, I understand that Nicole Francis,
who is the Congresswoman's Chief of Staff, is sitting
right there. We've become very good friends. Do
you -- if you have an additional -- any additional
knowledge of that, Nicole?
Ms. Francis: Yes, we have been in communication
with the office on this, and they're thinking that
would be a metal ceremony that week of the 10th,
and then have the metal sent to Birmingham.
Chair Marks: Okay, so, just for further clarification,
for the members, when we go to the tally of our
scores, if you want to support the modified versions,
if you could record that vote as obverse 18 and
reverse 12, that will help simplify our consideration,
but then when I write the letter to the Secretary, I'll
refer to it as the modified versions of one-A on the
obverse and modified six on the reverse, okay.
So, I want everyone to understand how we're doing
this, but I want to be able to distinguish between
the one-A that was presented in the package and
the six that was presented in the package, and how
we've modified it.
Okay, now, with that, next in our discussion I would
go to Tom.
Member Uram: Okay, I think this works. I too,
respect the family and the Congresswoman coming
here and talking about some of the specifics, and
there are some great designs that are in here, that
would really make terrific metals without a doubt,
and the symbolism, and I happen to like the flowers
and the ideas on a couple of those.
But having said that, I'll respect the wishes of the
family and how they wish to commemorate and

memorialize the situation that occurred and the act
that occurred.
So, I will go ahead also with the reverse 12 and
obverse 18.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Tom.
Michael Moran.

Let's go over to

Member Moran: Thank you, Gary. I came here
with other ideas, as to what I liked, but the -- and I
came here though with the mis-giving in the back of
my mind that I was judging it from my taste, my
art, my background, and there is no way that I
would ever be able to view it from your point of
view. I will never be able to walk in your shoes. It
just isn't there for me to do.
You have







Therefore, you get what you want, as far as I'm
concerned on the metal. I'm not about to oppose it.
I would say though that in my experience, this
metal has the potential to be burdened with too
many inscriptions, if you're not careful.
To the extent that Don can either -- and there are
ways to finesse that, or if there are ways to shorten
these inscriptions, you maybe ought to consider
I certainly think that -- I know I choked on the word
'pivotal', or not 'pivotal', 'sacrifice' in one of the
metals -- no, I don't think the families would view
that as a sacrifice at all.
I see pivotal as really an important phrase word
within that metal that should not be lost and should
be a key point that your eye goes to, without
changing these designs.
I also sense that we want something that is
handsome. You're going to get it with that church
on the back, and it is there on the 15th of

September, darn sure.
But in working with the Mint going forward, if you all
can abbreviate the word, shorten them somehow, I
think it would help the way the metal presents,
because a picture is worth one-thousand words.
Ms. Braddock: So, are you suggesting abbreviate
from this, that that's too wordy?
Member Moran: At the end of the day, it is what is
in your heart, not mine, but for the sake of art, if
there is some things that you can do without, that
still convey what you want to convey, you should
consider it.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. We'll go to Heidi,
Ms. Stafford: Can I interrupt, really quickly? Sorry,
Mr. Chairman.
Chair Marks: Yes, please.
Ms. Stafford: I wanted just to get clarification.
I do know that on reverse six-A or the reverse 12,
as we've discussed it, we have the inscription 'Four
Girls Were Killed in the Bombing of the 16th Street
Baptist Church'.
On the reverse 12, the words 'In Memory Of' were
added. I didn't know if the sisters or liaisons had a
feeling, a preference one way or the other, whether
'In Memory Of' must be added or if it stands as that,
and I would just like to know for the record, if you
do have a preference.
Ms. Braddock:
Well, here again, we were just
talking about it and I want to address what you
were just saying. We could reduce that to kiln in the
bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church. Because
the 4 girls are on the other side, and the coin itself
is ‘In Memory Of.’ So, in terms of wording I don’t
know what you think about it, but we could reduce

Member Jansen: Well done.
Ms. Braddock: It's the same thing.
Chair Marks: I see a lot of nodding heads.
okay, Heidi, you want to go ahead?


Member Wastweet: I want to thank you for taking
the trip here to be with us today. You are the
sisters, is that correct, of -Ms. McNair: Yes, my sister was Denise McNair and
here's was Carole Robertson.
Member Wastweet: Thank you, and then there are
two others. Are they within your congregation still?
Ms. McNair:

None of us attend that church

Member Wastweet: Okay, and one of you was on
our phone meeting before, when we discussed -you were, okay, and so, I am hearing that really the
wording seems to be more important to you than
the images. Am I interpreting that correctly?
Ms. McNair: I think it's a combination of both.
Member Wastweet: Combination of both.
Mr. Antonucci: We can do the wording the way it is,
the way we discussed it, obverse 18 and 12, we can
do that.
Mr. Everhart: Yes, it's a three-inch metal. So, we
have plenty of room.
Member Wastweet: Yes, I think the way that -Don, the way you've written it out, if we shorten
that, abbreviate it, whatever, I don't think is going
to make any substantial difference in the overall
design. I don't think we gain anything.
It is a lot of inscription, but by shortening the
inscription, we don't really necessarily gain either.
I think we had some really nice designs to choose

from, and frankly, I had some other favorites, but
like it was mentioned before, what is important is
that the people who are closest to this incident, that
it means the most to them. So, that's all I have.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Heidi. Mike?
Member Olson: Welcome to our guests. It's a real
honor to have you here, and hear your input.
You also are a part of history, and it's -- that's one
of the pleasures of being on this Committee is, we
get to interact with a lot of folks that we may not
have otherwise encountered, and it's certainly a
pleasure to have you here today.
Don, I want to commend you. You're making a habit
of this sketching on the fly, and so far, as Gary
mentioned earlier, on the baseball, you've hit some
home runs.
Mr. Everhart: I'm going to sell copies of it after the
Member Olson: And could you sign this for me, so I
could put it on e-bay? No, this looks great.
You know, Mike beat me to the punch here, but
when we're talking about a small metal, even
though this is three-inches, in many cases, the less
said, the better. You want to convey it by what
you're depicting and feeling.
But I would trust that the folks on the Mint staff will
do a nice job of putting that verbiage in there, in a
way that compliments the design, and I would agree
with Donald, that we've got enough here to really
make a recommendation on and I think we can trust
the folks to flesh this out a little bit and get
something everyone would be proud of.
So, with that, that concludes my comments.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. I too, welcome
our visitors. Thank you for coming and sharing your
thoughts with us.

I also want to thank the artists for the good work
that they've presented to us here.
I am very
encouraged with the quality of the drawings that
we've been presented with.
I hope, Don, that you'll convey the sentiment of the
Committee expressed here today, to the rest of
your team, how much we appreciate what we're
seeing here.
Mr. Everhart: I don't feel comfortable taking all the
credit, because Betty and Megan and Leslie and
April have done a lot work in that regard too. So,
it's not just me.
Chair Marks:
Surely, and I've mentioned that
earlier today, that the entire Mint team is like firing
on all cylinders, specifically to the artwork though, I
hope you would convey to the artists, the pleasure
with which their work has been received today, and
not just on this program, but the others also. Very
good stuff.
Mr. Everhart: We hear you.
Chair Marks: So, with respect to the designs, like
the others, I came here with my favorites, but I am
not sure what value that has at this point.
So, I'm going to support the direction that we've
heard today, with this modified designs, and with
that, I'm going to recognize Erik.
Member Jansen: Thanks for coming today. Thanks
for being part of the drafting work we did on the
phone a number of weeks ago.
I think I'm pretty confident, when I say the process
you put us through, while maybe similar to many
processes we go through for a lot of different coins
and metals, but this one had a whole lot more heart
to it than some of these other things have
In that extent, you have helped us grow, as well.

So, thank you for that.
I have my favorites, as well. I would hope that
although we modified obverse one and six, that the
original artist of those designs get their fair share of
the credit for this final design. I think that is
important because we consume a lot of artistic
energy and sometimes, I fear we don't give it back,
and I want to make sure that that happens.
As one of the agendas that I'd like to encourage this
Committee, to encourage the Mint to develop is,
these artists need to be turned into rock stars, and
to that extent, there are a lot of aspiring rock stars
before they find their hit, and so, I would hope that
the artists that are contributing here today in this
project and others, that don't get recognized per se
in this project or the projects they hope to win in,
get their chance and they don't feel the fatigue and
don't give up, because what's happening is
wonderful. What happened here is wonderful for
this particular project.
But I just thank the artists that just keep giving
their energies, even though they aren't getting the
trophy this time. Thank you.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Erik. Jeannie?
Member Stevens-Sollman: I have to follow this tall
Thank you one and all for coming. I know this is a
hardship for you, to leave your homes this time and
for us to do this in a quick sort of timely fashion.
Unlike my colleagues, I did come here with other
ideas and preferences. We were presented with
some incredible drawings for this very passionate
project, and I was -- I'd like to compliment the
artists down in the Mint, for this very, very difficult
I wish we really could have a choice and present
two or three gold metals, because we -- it is a very

important event to commemorate.
But like my colleagues, I will go with your choices
with moderation and revisions, and support obverse
18 and reverse 12. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Jeanne, and with that,
that brings the initial discussion to a close.
Are there any final comments from the members,
having heard all the rest of your colleagues?
Member Olson: I want to single out one design in
particular, that I neglected to when I did my talk.
But the reverse number three, whoever did that was
really doing some creative thinking, and that is a
really nice design.
So, pat on the back to whoever that was, and I wish
we could maybe use it on this one, or maybe there
is a use for it somewhere down the road, but that is
a winner.
Chair Marks: And I'll second that. That is a great -Member Wastweet: Yes, that is a good design.
Chair Marks: -- design, and I love it and yes, so,
accolades to the artist who did that.
Are there







Okay, hearing none, then I'll ask the members to go
ahead and complete their scoring sheets, and when
you've completed those, would you please pass
them into Erik, and he'll do our tally and when those
are available, I'll announce them before we adjourn
the meeting here today.
2014 Native American Coin Review
So, at this time, we're pretty much on schedule to
proceed with our next program, which is the review
of candidate designs for the 2014 Native American

$1 Coin Program, and if the staff is prepared, April,
do you have your staff report?
Ms. Stafford: Yes, sir. Public Law 110-82 requires
the Secretary of the Treasury to Mint and issue onedollar coins in honor of Native Americans and the
important contributions made by Indian Tribes and
individual Native Americans, to the development
and history of the United States.
The Act mandates a reverse design for these coins
with an image emblematic of one important Native
American or a Native American contribution each
year, in chronological order through 2016.
The 2014 designs were created from the previously
approved concept Native hospitality ensured the
success of the Lewis and Clark expedition.
As is custom, we worked closely with the National
Museum of the American Indian on both the
concepts and designs. We also consulted with the
Congressional Native American Caucus of the House
of Representatives, and the National Congress of
American Indian.
Chair Marks: April, could I -- April, could I -Ms. Stafford: Absolutely, yes.
Chair Marks:

-- just interrupt you for just a

My neglect, I didn't ask the -- our visitors if they
had any parting comments. Please forgive me. If
you could please speak.
Mr. Ward:

I'm going to do what I'm told and go

I'm going to speak on behalf here. On behalf of Ms.
Braddock, Ms. McNair and the Birmingham Civil
Rights, I just want to thank you all for the time and
effort that you put into this process, as well.

Thank you for hearing the voices of the family. We
appreciate the thought that you put into it, and
again, I also love all the designs, at this time, to
spill over all of them, over a course of a weekend,
it's excellent work, and I think they feel the same
But we just thank you for the process and think that
you have done a good job here and we are really,
really appreciative of what is going to happen here
with this gold metal, and I think that you've done
the families proud today.
So, thank you in advance, for what is going to
happen September 15th, and thanks for letting us
be in it with you and speak.
Chair Marks: Thank you very much.
when you're ready.

Okay, April,

Ms. Stafford: Sure, okay, the introduction for this
design concept includes, when the Lewis and Clark
expedition crossed the Continental Divide, the
nature of its mission fundamentally changed.
Up to that point, it had been exploring territory that
European powers would recognize as belonging to
the United States through the Louisiana Purchase.
Once past the headwaters of the Missouri River, the
expedition was securing the American claim to a
new accession of territory, the Pacific Northwest.
More than ever before, success of the mission
depended on help from the Indian tribes who may
not have understood the long-term consequences of
their hospitality.
For every step of their way through the Rocky
Mountains to the Pacific Coast, Lewis and Clark
depended on the friendship, supplies and logistical
support of the tribes on their route.
Lewis and Clark camped in the midst of the Mandan
and Hidatsa for the Winter of 1804 to 1805 and the

Clatsop in 1806, and their cooperation was essential
to the resounding success of this mission.
Inscriptions for this program of the obverse, of
course, continues to bear an image of Sacagawea
with the inscriptions 'Liberty' and 'In God We Trust',
required reverse inscriptions are 'United States of
inscriptions are e pluribus unum and 2014.
Another inscription in 2014, though not required, is
Native Nations meets Lewis and Clark.
So, that is the background, and moving onto the
candidate designs.
Design one commemorates the relationship between
the Nez Perce and Lewis and Clark through the offer
of horses. The generosity and hospitality shown by
the Nez Perce in supplying horses to Lewis and
Clark were instrumental in the expedition's quest to
explore the American West.
The Nez Perce horses were known for qualities of
endurance and intelligence, as well as their gentle
temperament and ability to form close bonds with
their human companions.
I should note that this was the preferred design of
the National Congress of the American Indian, with
a request that the link of the horses ears be
Design two depicts the friendship between and
mutual -Chair Marks: April, I'm sorry.
Ms. Stafford: I'm sorry?
Chair Marks: That was the choice of who?
Ms. Stafford: It was one of the preferred designs of
the National Congress of the American Indian.
Chair Marks: Thank you.

Ms. Stafford: Design two depicts the friendship and
mutual respect that developed between Lewis and
the Mandan Chief. This was also a preferred design
of the National Congress of the American Indian,
neither were -- there wasn't a one and a two. They
were both preferred.
They do recommend removing the pipe, based on
its relation to ceremonial and religious use,
however, and suggested that we perhaps have the
palm of the Native American open.
Design three depicts a Native American man
offering a pipe, and his wife offering provisions of
fish, corn, roots and gourds. The background of the
design is a stylized image of the face of Clark's
compass, highlighting NW, the core of discovery's
journey through the northwest.
This concept symbolizes the unity of families in
offering aid, support and friendship to those of the
Member Wastweet: April?
Ms. Stafford: Yes.
Member Wastweet:
I'm having a little trouble
keeping up. Can you back up just for a second?
Ms. Stafford: Sure.
Member Wastweet: On design number two?
Ms. Stafford: It was also the preferred design of
the National Congress of the American Indian.
Member Wastweet: So, they had two preferences?
Ms. Stafford: They did, and they were -- one was
not more preferred than another.
Member Wastweet: Okay, that's what I'm asking,
and then the suggested change was?
Ms. Stafford: For number two, suggested removing

the pipe, due to its ceremonial and religious use,
and also, that consideration be given to having the
palm of the Native American open.
Member Wastweet: I don't quite understand the -what they're saying about the pipe, because it was
Ms. Stafford: They recommend that the pipe often
has religious connotations, and so, in this particular
-- in two, they noted that perhaps, it wasn't as
appropriate as it could be, if the pipe were not
Member Wastweet: I'm not catching why. It seems
like it would be an opportunity -- or a reason for
ceremony with -Ms. Stafford: I would just -- I would say, when we
worked with the National Museum of the American
Indian, our experts there were sure to communicate
that pipes were used in a variety -- for a variety of
reasons, sometimes ceremonial, sometimes for
religious purposes, and so, they did not have an
issue with pipes being depicted.
But in this case, the feedback we received from the
National Congress of the American Indian
specifically noted that in this design, they did not
feel comfortable with it.
Member Wastweet: Okay.
Ms. Stafford: Is that accurate, Betty?
Ms. Birdsong: Yes, pretty much, yes.
Member Wastweet: Oh, the position of the hand
was like he was throwing it instead of -Ms. Birdsong: Yes.
Member Wastweet: -- offering? Okay, that makes
Ms. Stafford: All right?

Member Wastweet: Thank you.
Ms. Stafford: Sure, thank you. Okay, so, I believe
we were on -- we finished design three.
Design four depicts a Mandan woman offering
provisions, with her village in the background.
In the far background is a stylized image of Clark's
compass highlighting northwest.
The dollar sign one replaces a fleur-de-lis in the
compass design.
The concept symbolizes the
willingness of Native people to provide aid and
support for the expedition.
Four? Moving onto design five. This also depicts a
Mandan woman offering provisions with her village
in the background and again, symbolizes Native
people's invitations to share a warm hearth and
home and their willingness to provide aid and
support to the expedition.
This was the preferred design
Committee on Indian Affairs.


the Senate

Design six depicts Chief Cameahwait warning
Captain Lewis of the unpassable river route through
the mountains.
Perhaps the most important
assistance given by the Shoshone was an
assessment of the surrounding territory and the
best path to cross the Rocky Mountains.
The Chief instead recommended a land route further
north, often traveled by the Nez Perce.
designer took artist license in portraying both
Cameahwait and Lewis in more formal clothing to
emphasize how important the occasion was to the
The artist created the scene based on an entry from
the Lewis and Clark journals. This was the CFA's
preferred design.
Chair Marks: This one?

Ms. Stafford: This one. Moving onto design eight,
this depicts how Native American hospitality
furthered the expedition's goal of exploring the
Louisiana Purchase and ultimately, the West.
By trading and bartering, both parties obtained
goods they wanted and needed.
Sacagawea is
shown carrying a basket of corn to barter for items
belonging to the expedition.
The two men in the background represent Lewis and
Clark, as they survey and scout in the western
direction, as indicated by the compass.
The cradle board was not used
hide the baby, so the designer
license and was also directed
Museum of the American Indian,
the child.

because it would
took some artist
by the National
on how to secure

That concludes the candidate designs.
Chair Marks: Thank you, April. Before we proceed
to our discussion, are there any technical questions?
Member Wastweet: April, was there a discussion
about the peace pipe on design three?
Ms. Stafford: No, which is why I note that in that
particular design, with the feedback we received
from that particular stakeholder.
Member Wastweet: Thank you.
Chair Marks: Any others? Okay, it's the tradition of
our Committee that when there is a member who
has a particular tie to a subject or a particular
interest, that the Chair usually recognizes that
person to start the discussion.
Today, I find myself in that position, that I have a
tie to the -- to this subject matter, specifically to the
Nez Perce tribe, and I'll explain that.
You wouldn't know it, looking at my wife who has

graced me here today, being blonde as she is, but
her great-grandmother is full-blooded Nez Perce.
So, with that, I'm going to take the privilege of
beginning our discussion, and I'm going to go to
design number one, if we could put that up on the
screen, which if the Nez Perce tie was not here, I
would still support this design.
But this does happen to be the theme of the Nez
Perce generosity to the expedition, and the
provision of horses to their team.
I think we all understand the importance at that
time of the horse, especially in the ability of a
procession such as the Lewis and Clark expedition.
The horses actually provided the means for the
expedition to transport, to move objects and people.
So, I think the image is a wonderful one. The
image to me, speaks of this Native American
gentleman. To me, it looks like he's presenting
these horses.
So, with the idea that maybe the ears be adjusted, I
am going to support number one, but I also want to
mention that I think there is some terrific art here.
I love the profiles provided in number two. I think
they're very well executed.
I also like the symbology and the images in three,
four, five. Those all could very easily gain my
support, and I probably will give them some support
in my tally.
Number six is very well rendered. I understand it's
the CFA's choice. However, this one, for years, we
talked about not wanting story boards, and while
this is wonderfully executed, to me, this speaks
more of a story board approach, to the subject
I'm not sure it really -- it doesn't pop for me,
artistically, and I think there are some other images
that really present the subject matter in a better

Then finally, number eight, again, very, very well
executed. I think there is some good art here, and
I like number eight.
I'll be providing -- or I'll be throwing most of my
support, my strongest support towards number one
and also, in support of my family's tribe, the Nez
So, with that, I'll go to Mike Olson.
Member Olson: Okay, the theme here is offering of
assistance and hospitality.
While I share Gary's liking for number one, that is a
great design and it's beautifully done. I don't get
the offer of assistance, because there is no one
there to receive the assistance.
I mean, you could interpret that one as the
relationship that he has with his horses.
But I still like the design and I'll probably give it a
vote or two, but moving on to number two.
It does show somewhat of the relationship between
the two entities there. The ones I'm drawn to most
though are number three and number four, simply
for the fact that they show that compass in the
background. That's pretty cool.
You've got the northwest there. It really provides a
touchstone on what is happening with the whole
Initially, I preferred number three over number
four, but when I got to looking at some of the other
coins from this series -- Gary, can I see your book
there for a minute?
In keeping with some of the other coins that we've
had in this series, not all of them, but they
explained what it is being depicted.

For example, the one that we have here from this
year, Treaty with the Delawares, the one from
2011, the Wampanoag Treaty.
Last year, the trade routes, there was no
explanation provided, but it had horses in the
background running and the three sisters of
agriculture, that was not spelled out, but it was
pretty obvious, as to what was going on there.
So, for that reason, I go to number four.
state what it is that we're trying to convey.
the compass on there. It's very well done.
really, there is five of these that are pretty
my opinion, pretty well done.

It does
It's got
I think
well, in

Number one -- or excuse me, number five is nice.
It's a mirror image of number four, without the
compass. I'm really confused about number six.
I want to ask a little bit about this artistic license.
Would -- is that Lewis or is that Clark there? It
doesn't really, I guess matter.
But would he really have a hat like that on out in
the wilderness? I'm thinking probably not, but I
don't know for sure.
It probably wouldn't look that new, if he made it all
the way up to where they're having that meeting.
So, you know, this artist license is nice, but it can
go -- it can definitely be over-stretched, and I think
in this case, it certainly was.
Ms. Birdsong: If I can just add? Both of the
clothing that they actually have are samples from
the Peabody Museum.
Member Olson: The what?
Ms. Birdsong: From the Peabody Museum.
Member Olson: Okay.
Ms. Birdsong: Actually, what the Chief is wearing is

in a painting. It shows Lewis -- Lewis wearing that
particular outfit. There is a painting out there.
Member Olson: That shows him wearing that outfit
in this situation?
Ms. Birdsong: Not in this situation. The outfit was
actually a gift to Lewis when he left, and there was
a -- an artist actually painted him in the clothing.
Member Olson: Okay.
Ms. Stafford: So, the artist license came in placing
this outfit in this situation to impress upon the
viewer, the importance of the exchange.
Member Olson: Okay, all right. Fair enough.
Then on to number eight. There is a lot going on
there, and that is really too busy for that size of a
So, you know, I'll be throwing support towards
number one, some towards number three and some
towards number four.
I do -- if there was a way putting the inscription of
the 'Native Nations Meet Lewis and Clark' on
number three, that would gain all of my support,
but it just doesn't look like there would be enough
room on there to do that. That's it.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Mike. Heidi?
Member Wastweet: Thank you. Design number
one, I think is a really nice design and I could get
behind this if we hadn't already done a horse
design, and because we have already addressed the
horse, I think we can do a little better to have more
variety in the series, by going a different direction
with this coin.
So, while I like the design, I'm not behind number
one, just for that reason.
Design number two, I feel is very literal and then

we have the issue of the pipe going away, which is
part of the design element.
So, I'm not fully
supporting that, while it's a nice drawing.
Design number three is far and away, my favorite
design. I really appreciate the creativity of putting
the compass in the background. It's drawn very
lightly here. I presume that would be much bolder
in the coin, but do you have any thoughts on that,
Steve? Was there any -Mr. Antonucci: It depends on if you want it that
way or if you want it to be almost a shadow.
Member Wastweet: I think it would be better to be
bolder, so that it would be more visible.
Mr. Antonucci:

I was more worried about the

Member Wastweet: Yes, it would be more durable.
It would be easier on production, and I think visibly,
it would be better if that were a nice bold line there
with the compass.
I like the combination of the two characters here,
offering of the peace pipe and the food. So, it's
showing that the Indians helped in not just one
category or another, but in lending direction and
offering friendship, and support to the physical
needs of shelter and food.
So, this design really encompasses all of those
things very neatly, in a creative way. It's not a
story board. It's not too literal. So, I really like this
design very much.
Design number four, also a nice design, but it
doesn't have as many -- as much dimension to it, as
design number three.
Design number five, same thing. Design number
six, the thing -- I like this concept because as he's
drawing the line in the dirt, the dirt is not just dirt,
but it becomes the actual landscape.

So, this is really creative. The problem is that it's
not going to work on the scale of a one-dollar coin.
While we can see it in the drawing, we're not going
to see it on the coin. We're not going to understand
what is going on there, and the way the artist has
had end the ground behind the Indian, is awkward
too. It's going to look like he is sitting on an island.
There is no reason for that division there. That
makes no sense.
So, that one is falling apart for me.
Design number eight, a nice drawing, a lot going on,
way too much for the scale of this coin. If this were
a Congressional gold metal size, this would be fine,
but on our scale, I think it's just way, way too
much. That's it.
Chair Marks: Thank you. Michael Moran?
Member Moran: I think I've seen over the last six
months, a very subtle change in the designs that
have come to us, in terms of their quality. It's been
a -- it's obviously an improvement.
But the change that I'm seeing is that we're
spending as much time now judging the theme that
the designer is conveying to us, not the execution of
the design.
That is a positive thing for me, and I think in this
case, we have six solid themes, some not as well
executed, and I can speak to that, as we go through
I concur that the Nez Perce with two horses doesn't
necessarily convey that Lewis and Clark is there.
Remember hopefully, at some point in time, these
coins will circulate and somebody will pick them up
and wonder what it is.
To me, that is a
The second one, I'm frustrated because it was my
choice, as long as it's -- the peace pipe was there,
because I saw that as the unifying instrument

between the two figures, otherwise they're just
there, and a hand out doesn't get it done.
If somebody can tell me how you can the blessings
of that pipe back in there, it's my choice.
So, I'm kind of stuck here on the diving board of the
end, and not knowing whether to jump off or not.
Three, I can get behind that one, as well. Again,
you have the peace pipe there. It is nice. It gives
you a horizontal plain against the right-angle of the
compass and a 45-degree angle there. I like that.
You have both male and female, and the offering.
You don't have to say anything more. You can get
the story out of that one, and it will show up on a
dollar coin.
Four, the inscription kills it. If you've got to put an
inscription on a dollar-size coin, other than what is
mandated legally, you've lost it, and I can't go that
It's not a metal, and even on metals, we can get
way too carried away, and we shouldn't do this.
Four -- five, five. It would be okay, but you've got
three, which is a better one, and finally six, I concur
with Heidi.
There was no question that the pathway through
the Bitterroot Mountains was pivotal to Lewis and
Clark getting through there and surviving to reach
the west coast, an important moment.
But it will not show up on a dollar coin. So, we've
got to let it go.
Finally, number seven, yes, it's busy. But with
some moves, you could simplify it. The baby adds
nothing to the story and could easily go. You could
shrink the figures of Lewis and Clark there a little
I'm not sure -- I'm assuming that is Clark with the

rifle, that that rifle is necessary, although you need
to have him doing something with his hand.
But in view of better designs, I have to let that one
go, as well.
So, unless somebody can tell me how to -- you get
consensus on number two, I'm stuck with number
three, but I'll probably end up voting for number
two, but I just -- you've got to have something that
unifies those two figures.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. At this point, I'd
like to go on the phone to Michael Bugeja. Michael,
are you ready?
Member Bugeja:

I'm here, Gary.

Thank you so

I like two of these designs very much. I would have
liked obverse 06, for a lot of good reasons, actions,
symbolism, conveying meaning through design,
rather than through words, but it's just not going to
show up on the planchet.
Then I do like number one. That was my first
choice, but as I listen to conversation, I guess I'm
torn between number one, obverse number one and
obverse number three.
I liked what Gary said about one. Number three
just has a lot going on. I like the comment about a
man and a woman. I liked the compass, the food,
and the different orientation of the faces.
So, the more I -- I am torn between those two, but
the more I seriously consider some of the
comments that are made, I am being swayed a little
bit toward number three. I probably should stop
there, Gary.
Chair Marks: Okay, thank you, Michael.
take us down to Erik.

That will

Member Jansen: I like number six. I thought that
was an intriguing design, but just won't fit on the

space we have here.
The baby doesn't contribute anything to the story
here, necessarily, I think, and so, I take eight out.
I like the message in six, but it doesn't carry
through on the size.
So, I end up back on the first page here, looking at
one, two and three. I think the horse thing, while it
would have made a lot of people happy, I don't
think it tells the story because as was said earlier,
there is not a gift receipt kind of interaction here.
And so, I am down to two and three. The pipe is
out of two. So, I am down to three, and I don't
dislike three. I think the dollar designation is a little
bit crowded in there.
I think these sculptors are going to make or break
this one, based on how you deliver us the northwest
quadron. So, bring it.
Mr. Everhart: Very low relief.
Member Jansen: Just make sure it's there, will you,
otherwise you run the risk of making a variety,
which will make a lot of people happy, but probably
not in the Mint.
Chair Marks: Okay, Jeanne?
Member Stevens-Sollman:
Thank you.
comments on number one, I think this is quite an
interesting concept.
If you've walked with horses and you had anything
to do with them, these turned back ears aren't
always a friendly gesture. The ears are too long.
They should be more forward, and you know, it
would make it look like he was giving the horses to
Lewis and Clark, if he were kind of looking toward
us, although you'd lose the beautiful profile.
So, I have a lot of good feelings about this, but also
not so good. So, I'm going to not support this one.

I do like number two, and for the reasons that we
have some -- it's simple, and if that hand that is
trying to pitch the pipe, if that hand were just
turned around to hold the pipe, and the pipe is
being held in number three, I think I could say yes,
yes to number two, although number three is very
desirable, except for this dollar sign.
You know, if the dollar sign were -- if the one-dollar
were written out along the edge, I think it would
maybe help that piece.
Mr. Weinman: This is the statute require us to have
the one -Member Stevens-Sollman: The one-dollar. I hate
that statute. It's too bad, because I think it would
make this a better design.
Then I want to jump to number six, which I truly
think this is an intense moment, and the artist has
conveyed this intensity through the Chief.
I really think it is a very, very important piece, and
I have very strong feelings for this.
I don't -- I didn't see the fact that there was a dropoff island there, Heidi, until you mentioned it. It
just looked like another piece of something or other.
So, if these two figures were there with that
intensity, I would like to gamble on what the artist
could do at the Mint, to make this work. I like this
one very much.
I like the historic costuming, and truly, the fact he
wanted to get that information to Clark. You know
what? If you don't do this right, you're not going to
make it. Thank you.
Ms. Stafford: Just to add, the CFA, when they
remarked on this design, also noted that curve of
the horizon, and they asked that that be
straightened out.
Member Stevens-Sollman: Yes, that would be very

fine, you know, it just kind of like -- or just, I don't
know, I don't even know. It could be pushed back
more toward his elbow or something, something.
But his finger pointing, Gary, I'm sorry, I have to
disagree with the story telling business. I think this
is just too -- he's too intense, and how many times
in our designs, have we seen this intensity? I
mean, this is really powerful. I'm going with this
Mr. Antonucci: Could we go back to number three
for a second? Design three?
Chair Marks: Okay.
Mr. Antonucci: If we move the one-dollar under the
peace pipe, sort of shift everything a little bit to the
right, would that work better for you?
Member Stevens-Sollman: Yes, that would work
better for me. I just don't like it over there. I
mean, you could even make it lower, behind her
elbow, maybe, but that would crowd it. But this is a
nice design. I just feel that it -- when I look at this,
it's a nice design. The other one is powerful, for
Chair Marks: Okay, thank you, Jeanne. Mike Ross?
Member Olson: A quick 30 seconds of boilerplates,
sourpussness over this whole series.
The laws ask that we depict the Native American's
role in American history and they included the
writing of the Cherokee language, the Iroquois
Confederacy, the Pueblo Revolt, so on and so forth,
and last time we did the treaties, with which they
signed away their land and now, we're doing them
helping guide the guys who are surveying their
land, so we can take it.
Well, I think the next coin is going to be like Sitting
Bull surrendering or Crazy Horse being assassinated
and the stockade, something else, the critical end,

the removal of the buffalo.
(Off mic comments.)
Member Olson: But I don't -- yes, the trail of tears
would be good.
But so, I'm going to go with design one because I
can pretend it's a different coin.
It's a good looking coin and when people look at it,
they won't know it's about helping Lewis and Clark
survey their land. It will be about Native Americans
and their horses.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Mike. Donald?
Member Scarinci:
You know, that is the most
persuasive reason for going for number one that I
have heard, and I -- you know, and I was kind of -I kind of figured, you know, number six, you know.
You know, six is good, but you know, now that I
think about it, you know, I think you're right about
one. I mean, you know, because of all the things
we've seen today, and of all the things we've been
presented with today, you can't hit home runs on
every coin, and let's just say, these are just so
traditional and boring, and you know, I don't really
care for any of the designs.
There is no modernism here. There is no attempt at
anything, other than people -- you know, and I
discount -- I kind of immediately discount all of the
images where we have Sacagawea or what portrays
to be Sacagawea, because I don't like -- and I didn't
like in the Lincoln series, when we had Lincoln -and Lincoln in the back, there's Lincoln and Lincoln,
you know, the head, the body.
So, I didn't like it then and I don't like it any more
now, that we're going to have Sacagawea and
So, I guess I immediately discount all of the
Sacagawea/Sacagawea, and then I'm left with --

you know, I mean, I just -- and I love -- you know,
and I love, you know, the host, you know, the -- not
the -- I guess it's not the host group, but you know,
the -- I love it when somebody tells me -- you
know, I said before, you know, I love ice cream, but
I hate that cold, creamy taste, you know.
So, like, I like design one, but you know, I hate
those ears, and I like design two, you know, but -you know, but get rid of the peace pipe. Well, the
peace pipe is in design two.
You know, so, I don't know, you know, otherwise, I
could -- you know, and I could see -- and when
Jeanne, you know, says, you know -- has an issue
with an animal, that is a big deal for me, you know.
So, you know, Jeanne sculpts animals, and so, you
know, I was kind of -- said, okay, well, you know,
let's then move away from one, you know, six, you
might be able to figure out, you know, what is going
on here, maybe, you know, with a loop and you
know, this might come off.
So, I guess I'm just torn, you know, and this might
be one of those where -- because you can vote
three and three. So, I just might like cancel myself
out and just do one and six, and yes, the right thing
about one is, you know, it's just a couple of horses
and an Indian, you know.
So, it really doesn't hurt anything, you know. I
mean, you know, whereas, you know -- I mean, you
know how I feel about the series. You know, we're
using our -- you know, we're recreating history -you know, we're creating the winner's view of
history, kind of, you know.
You know, like, we took their land and we got rid of
them and we put them in little reservations and
now, we're going to tell the story about all the
things they did for us.
So, it's a problem with the series, in general, and
I've had this, you know, big issue here. There's

nothing to do about it, it is what it is.
So, I guess I'm torn between one and six, for all
those reasons.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Donald. Tom?
Member Uram: Thanks. Originally I thought that
number one also, I like the horses, but then again,
they remind me of some of the ones I've bet on.
So, I mean, just the way it is.
But and I like ears straight up and I like the horses.
But anyhow, I agree, I think we had the horses on
the first go-around, and I'm leaning more towards - and after hearing all the discussion, I do like the
design number three, moving the one dollar down
and below the peace pipe, and I agree, I think
number two would have been the winner, had the
pipe stayed there. I think that would have been a
successful effort there, and I do like number six, as
far as the intensity of it, as well.
So, I think now, I'm torn more between number
three and number six. I did like number eight, but
there is a whole lot going on there, and as Don just
mentioned, you got, you know, Sacagawea and
Sacagawea again.
So, I think my efforts are going to go towards
number three and number six.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Tom. Now, by way of
follow up, I'll start that. I've got a couple short
items to say.
You've heard me say this before, that there are
times when I think it would be better if they didn't
give us these big versions of the design, that all we
would be forced to look at -Member Wastweet: Is the little ones.
Chair Marks: -- are the actual size. I say that
because for those of you who are supporting

number six and all of its intensity, take a moment,
look at the lower right-hand corner of the page that
shows this design, and for me, the intensity is lost.
So, the drama of the moment, I just don't think on
that small of a surface that it's going to portray the
way you think it's going to portray in this larger
Enough said





On number three, I'll have to conceded that Heidi
makes some wonderful points about number three.
I could live with that, especially if the compass
portion was brought out and made a very significant
part of that design.
Then however, having conceded my support for
three, because of Heidi, I'll also challenge Heidi's
comment on number one, about horses and the
American Indian.
If we want to decide that we look at horses once for
this series, therefore, we shouldn't look at horses
again, then there is a lot of future designs that
we're going to have to rule out because I don't
know if you're all aware of this, but this series has
no end.
There is no date that says, "This series is over." So,
as we go into the years, and I don't know, maybe
decades of Native American one-dollar coins, if
we're saying we can't visit horses again on designs
for this series, I think we take a big piece of the
culture and we blot it out.
So, if that is one of the reasons you don't want to
support one, please re-think. Horses need to be a
part of the Native American image, as far as this
series goes.
Member Olson: We could do horses surrendering.
Chair Marks:

Mike, I love you.

I appreciate the

comment. Thank you.
Okay, any other comments?
Member Olson:
number three.

Okay, couple of comments on

You know, that one dollar, it really doesn't matter to
me whether it's high, low, but it needs to be in that
space behind the female, so as not to detract from
the compass, the pipe or the direction they are
looking. My opinion, it needs to stay there.
The other thing I wanted to point out is that
convention of the dollar sign in the shape that it's
in, that has been used on every one of these except
for the current version from 2013, where a more
traditional dollar sign has been used.
So, on the four coins done from 2009 to 2012, that
is what the dollar sign looked like.
So, for continuity, and I don't think we've paid a lot
of attention to that. We've just kind of went with the
design that looked the best, but I really think for
continuity, we should try to keep that the same, to
the extent we can.
Now, the other thing that I've just been eagerly
waiting to ask Don about here is on this compass,
would it be possible to incuse the compass?
Mr. Antonucci:
It's on the field, and we were
headed in that direction. That's sort of where we're
Member Olson: That would be really cool on an -in an inexpensive coin. I know they're not available
for circulation, but I just bought a box of them
downstairs for not much more than face value.
Mr. Antonucci: As long as you can go below the
field level, and if Steve says we can do that -Member Olson: That would be cool, and it would
really look nice on a proof.

Mr. Antonucci: But it will be polished. The field, the
background is going to polished too. So, I'm not
sure how you're going to accomplish that.
Mr. Everhart: If it was matte, if the compass was
matte on a polished surface on a proof, that would
show up.
Member Olson: You mean recessed?
Mr. Everhart: Yes, incuse and not polished.
(Off mic comments)
Mr. Everhart: No, no, the surface, the basin would
be frosted, but the compass would not be.
Member Olson: No.
Mr. Everhart: No?
Member Olson: No, people like shiny.
Mr. Everhart:

Excuse me, I said that wrong, I'm

Member Olson: Yes, you did.
Mr. Everhart: The basin would be -Member Olson: Polished, correct.
Mr. Everhart: -- polished with the compass frosted.
Member Olson: Frosted, yes.
Mr. Everhart: That would look really nice.
Member Olson: Yes, but you're saying incuse.
Mr. Everhart: Correct, incuse and frosted.
Member Olson: As long as we can let it into the
field, it would be something new, we've never done
Mr. Everhart: That would be cool.

Chair Marks: Okay, anyone else?
Member Wastweet:

You think you can do that,

Mr. Antonucci: We'll give it a shot.
Member Olson: If you make any mistakes, I'll take
whatever mistakes -Mr. Antonucci: I know that.
(Off mic comments.)
Chair Marks: Okay, now, any other comments?
Member Wastweet: Gary?
Chair Marks: Heidi?
Member Wastweet:
horse comment.

I want to address the -- your

Chair Marks: Go for it.
Member Wastweet: I didn't intend that I don't want
to see anymore horses, because horses are crucial
to the whole Indian story, and I'd love to see more
horses in the future.
I just don't think that this conveys the message that
the narrative hits. He looks like the keeper of
horses, rather than the giver or lender of horses.
Chair Marks: Well, I don't know, in fairness, I'll just
say, if I'm coming to give you something arms
open, I'm giving it to you. I think that is a very
giving posture.
So, that -- whatever it is. Any other comment?
Okay, if you can go ahead and do your scoring
sheets, this will be obviously, and interesting one to
see how this comes out.
We want to get that tallied and report back to you
what those results are.

Meanwhile, while we start that process, I want to
circle back to -- yes, 16th Street, we've got some
results for 16th Street, if you are interested.
So, we'll start with the obverse. Pardon?
(Off mic comments.)
Chair Marks: Okay so, let's go to the 16th Street
bombing victims Congressional gold metal.
On the obverse scores, we have obverse one with
zero. One-A with three. Obverse two received
three. Obverse three received six.
Obverse four received one. Five received one. Six
received zero. Seven received one.
Obverse eight received zero, as well as nine
received zero. Ten received zero. Eleven received
three. Twelve received one.
Obverse 13 received four.
Obverse 14, two.
Obverse 15, four. Obverse 16, six. Obverse 17,
three and then the recommended design would be
obverse 18, which received 29 of the 30 possible
scoring points, which of course, we know 18 is the
modified One-A, correct?
Ms. Stafford: Correct.
Chair Marks: Yes, okay. So, that is modified One-A
received 29 of 30.
So, for the reverse, reverse one received two.
Reverse two received one. Reverse three received
13. Reverse four and five, zero.
Reverse six and six-A received three each. Seven
received zero. Two received two. Nine received
Reverse ten received 12 points.
Reverse 11
received six points. Then drum roll, please.
New reverse 12, which is modified six-A received 28

of the 30 possible points.
Those were the results for that program.
We are ahead of schedule right now, but still
needing to get the scores to you for the Native
American dollar.
So, I am going to put us in recess for the next 10 or
15 minutes and when we come back, we'll report
those scores and then we'll be adjourning for the
day. So, we're in recess.
(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the
record at 3:35 p.m. and resumed at 3:40 p.m.)
Chair Marks: Okay, we are back on the record. We
have the scores for the 2014 Native American onedollar coin.
Reverse number one received 17. Reverse two
received four. Reverse three received 23 and is our
indicated recommendation.
Reverse four received four.
Reverse five, two.
Reverse six received six. Reverse eight received
(Off mic comment.)
Member Jansen: There is no seven.
Chair Marks: There is no seven. There is no design
Mr. Everhart: Is this out of 27? Does this include
Mike Ross?
Chair Marks: All members are accounted for. All
members are accounted for. Those tallies are final.
Okay, well, with that, the business of this day is
complete. I will look forward to seeing all of you
tomorrow morning.
Our design -- or our meeting tomorrow begins at
9:15 a.m., and I hope you all have a wonderful

evening. We are adjourned.
Member Bugeja: Thank you, Gary.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael.
(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter concluded
at 3:45 p.m.)