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Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 1 1 CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE (CCAC) 2 3 4 5 Wednesday, July 17, 2019 6 9:47 a.m. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Department of the Treasury 14 US Mint 15 8th Floor Boardroom 16 801 9th Street, NW 17 Washington, D.C. 20220 18 19 20 Reported By: Natalia Thomas, Notary 21 JOB No.: 3428253 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 2 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S THOMAS J. URAM, CHAIR CCAC 3 MARY LANNIN, MEMBER 4 ERIK JANSEN, MEMBER 5 ROBERT HOGE, MEMBER 6 MICHAEL MORAN, MEMBER 7 DR. DEAN KOTLOWSKI, MEMBER 8 ROBIN SALMON, MEMBER 9 JEANNE STEVENS-SOLLMAN, MEMBER 10 DONALD SCARINCI, MEMBER 11 SAMANTHA GILL, MEMBER 12 DENNIS TUCKER, MEMBER 13 APRIL STAFFORD, STAFF 14 GREG WEINMAN, STAFF 15 ROGER VASQUEZ, STAFF 16 PAM BORER, STAFF 17 RON HARRIGAL, STAFF 18 BETTY BIRDSONG, STAFF 19 MEGAN SULLIVAN, STAFF 20 VANESSA FRANCK, STAFF 21 22 MATT HOLBEN, STAFF APRIL WHITAKER, STAFF www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 3 1 A P P E A R A N C E S - Continued 2 JOHN DOLEVA, PROGRAM LIAISON 3 DON SENECAL, PROGRAM LIAISON 4 5 ROBIN VIDITO/NAISMITH MEMORIAL, PROGRAM LIAISON PAUL GILKES, COIN WORLD, PUBLIC 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 4 1 A G E N D A 2 ITEM 3 Welcome and Call to Order 4 Tom Uram, CCAC Chair PAGE 5 Acceptance of Minutes and Letters of 6 Previous Meeting. 7 Tom Uram, CCAC Chair 8 Review and Discussion of Candidate 9 Designs for the 2020 Basketball Hall 10 5 7 of Fame Commemorative Coins. 11 April Stafford, Design Management 12 Obverse 8 13 Reverse 82 14 Adjourn 141 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 5 1 2 P R O C E E D I N G S Welcome and Call To Order 3 CHAIR URAM: Good morning, everyone. I would 4 like to call the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee 5 to order for this Wednesday, July 17, 2019. 6 begin, I'd like to introduce the members of the 7 committee. 8 name. 9 Please respond present when I call your Sam Gill? MR. GILL: 10 Before I Present. CHAIR URAM: 11 Robert, are you there? 12 around. Robert Hoge on the phone? We'll call. We'll circle Erik Jansen? 13 MR. JANSEN: Present. 14 CHAIR URAM: Dr. Dean Kotlowski? 15 DR. KOTLOWSKI: 16 CHAIR URAM: Mary Lannin? 17 MS. LANNIN: Present. 18 CHAIR URAM: Michael Moran on the phone? 19 MR. MORAN: 20 CHAIR URAM: Robin Salmon? 21 MS. SALMON: Present. 22 CHAIR URAM: Donald Scarinci? Present. Present. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 6 1 MR. SCARINCI: Present. 2 CHAIR URAM: 3 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 4 CHAIR URAM: Dennis Tucker on the phone? 5 MR. TUCKER: Present. 6 CHAIR URAM: Thank you, Dennis. Jeanne Stevens-Sollman? Present. I am Tom 7 Uram, the chairman of the CCAC, and I welcome 8 everyone. 9 We'll review today's agenda first. First we'll have the discussion of the 10 letters and the minutes from the June 18, 2019 meeting 11 and from our telephone meeting. 12 review discussions of the obverse candidate designs 13 for the Basketball Hall of Fame Commemorative Coin 14 Program and the design competition. 15 discussion of the reverse candidate designs for the 16 Basketball Hall of Fame Commemorative Coin Program 17 will follow that. We'll move on and A review and 18 Before we begin our proceedings, are there 19 members of the press in attendance and on the phone, 20 or on the phone? Anyone in attendance from the press? 21 MR. GILKES: Paul Gilkes, Coin World. 22 CHAIR URAM: On the phone. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Thank you, Paul. Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 7 1 Any journalists in the room or any journalists other 2 than Paul? 3 record and acknowledge the following Mint staff that 4 are participating in today's meeting. 5 April Stafford, the Chief Office of Design Management. 6 And Program Managers from that office are Vanessa 7 Franck, Megan Sullivan, Pam Borer, Roger Vasquez. 8 Where is Roger? 9 right. 10 Thank you. I'd finally also like to There you guys are. First of all, Okay. All Ron Harrigal, manager of Design and Engraving is with us. Betty Birdsong, our liaison to -- 11 MS. BIRDSONG: 12 CHAIR URAM: Yeah. -- Citizens Advisory Committee. 13 Our counsel, Mr. Greg Weinman. 14 with the Mint -- or are there any other issues that 15 need to be addressed before we begin? 16 Acceptance of Minutes and Letters from Previous 17 Meeting 18 CHAIR URAM: So I'd like to begin Okay. Then first is the approval of 19 the minutes, Secretary, and from our last meeting. 20 Have any comments on the documents you all received? 21 Hearing none, is there a motion to approve the minutes 22 and letters? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 8 1 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 2 CHAIR URAM: Second? 3 MR. JANSEN: Second. 4 CHAIR URAM: Second by Erik. 5 So moved. All those in favor say aye. 6 GROUP: 7 CHAIR URAM: Aye. Opposed? Thank you. We now 8 turn to April. And April is our, as mentioned, Chief 9 Mint Design and Management to present the designs and 10 portfolio for the Basketball Hall of Fame 11 Commemorative Coin Program Design Competition. 12 MR. WEINMAN: 13 CHAIR URAM: April? Beginning with the obverse. Beginning with the obverse. 14 Review and Discussion of Candidate Designs for the 15 2020 Basketball Hall of Fame Commemorative Coins 16 MS. STAFFORD: Thank you so much. We are 17 very fortunate to have with us today representatives 18 of the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame who we will 19 introduce in a moment. 20 provide the following background on this commemorative 21 coin program. 22 And, yes, we are pleased to As Public Law 115-343, the Naismith Memorial www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 9 1 Basketball Hall of Fame Commemorative Coin Act that 2 requires the Secretary of the Treasury to mint and 3 issue five dollar gold coins, one dollar silver coins, 4 and half-dollar clad coins in recognition of the 60th 5 Anniversary of the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall 6 of Fame. 7 Some background about this sport. It was on 8 December 21, 1891 when a young physical education 9 instructor named Dr. James Naismith introduced the 10 game of basketball to his physical education class at 11 Springfield College, formally the YMCA International 12 Training School in Springfield, Massachusetts. 13 In the next two years the YMCA missionaries 14 who were trained at Springfield College were 15 dispatched on their missions around the world with a 16 peach basket and a soccer ball, giving rise early on 17 to the global reach of the game and explaining the 18 roots of the game's worldwide participation. 19 Dr. Naismith's vision was to have basketball 20 be a very inclusive game. We know exactly who, when, 21 and where this game was invented unlike American 22 football and baseball where the origins are a bit more www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 10 1 nebulas. 2 for the game. 3 it were to engender team work, sportsmanship, fitness, 4 leadership, integrity, respect, and preservation. 5 These seven values he wanted the game to reenforce are 6 known as the Naismith values. Basketball has a clear inventor and purpose Dr. Naismith's purposes for inventing In 1959 the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall 7 8 of Fame was founded and dedicated to the game's 9 creator in Springfield, Massachusetts known as the 10 birthplace of basketball and became the first and only 11 museum to honor the game at all levels around the 12 world. 13 the premier institution entrusted with recording and 14 disseminating the history of the game of basketball 15 and recognizing and honoring the achievements of its 16 greatest players, coachers, and contributors. 17 The Hall's recognized throughout the world as The fact, the Naismith Memorial Basketball 18 Hall of Fame Commemorative Coin Act requires that all 19 three coins be curved similar to the 2019 Apollo 11 20 50th anniversary commemorative coins. 21 the act requires the convex side of the coins, the 22 reverse, depict a basketball as a common design across Additionally www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 11 1 all three. 2 In accordance with the act, candidate designs 3 for the obverse or the concave side of, of these 4 coins, were solicited from artists through a national 5 public design competition. Twenty artists' designs 6 are being presented today. These designs are required 7 by the act to be emblematic of the game of basketball. 8 Required inscriptions include liberty, in God we 9 trust, and 2020. 10 I should note that some artists additionally 11 opted to submit designs with other inscriptions such 12 as Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame, 13 Basketball Hall of Fame, and Naismith core values, or 14 the Hall of Fame's core values, which are 15 preservation, inspiration, and celebration. 16 artists also reference, as I mentioned, the Naismith 17 values with, with inscriptions themselves or other 18 devices. 19 Some In order to preserve the artistic vision of 20 the competition submitted designs, but still ensure 21 that the designs are fundamentally coinable, the Mint 22 conducted one round of modifications for coinability www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 12 1 concerns. As the designs are presented, we will note 2 necessary modifications to address technical and/or 3 historical accuracy issues. Representatives for this program are with us 4 5 today and I'd like to invite the president and CEO of 6 the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame, John 7 Doleva, to make some comments to our committee and 8 also introduce his team. 9 MR. DOLEVA: Sure. Thank you very much. I 10 appreciate it. 11 of all for your time, but also your expertise. 12 very excited about this coin. 13 founding of basketball in Springfield, Massachusetts, 14 and as was said, this is a sport, a major sport around 15 the world. 16 sometimes we think basketball is first. 17 basketball is first around the world and growing. 18 I'd like to think the Committee first We're It does commemorate the Sometimes we think soccer is first; We think But this was a game invented in Springfield 19 that was meant to be very much inclusionary by Dr. 20 Naismith. 21 in Springfield College and just 30 days later he was 22 at Smith College teaching women how to play He invented this game in December of 1891 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 13 1 basketball, introducing the game to women. He thought 2 that women were very well suited for this game. 3 thought this game matched them. He He worked with a gentleman called EB 4 5 Henderson down here in Washington, DC in the early 6 1900s. 7 was at Harvard from Dr. Naismith being at Springfield 8 College. 9 black basketball and working with Dr. Naismith, 10 EB Henderson learned about the game when he And EB Henderson is called the father of introduced the game to young African-American men. 11 And I think EB Henderson probably has the, 12 the most understated view of basketball or, or kind of 13 the most obvious thing he said at that point, that I 14 think this game is well suited for African-American 15 men. 16 of the game, he was incredibly correct. 17 And I think as we look at, back on the history So Dr. Naismith wanted this game to be very 18 much an inclusive game everyone could play. 19 basketball, boys, girls, men, women, college, pro, 20 collegiate, the high school game, the international 21 game, all around the world this game really has become 22 a language, kind of a universal language, and we www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 UC Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 14 1 celebrate that at the Naismith Memorial Basketball 2 Hall of Fame. 3 I'm joined here by Don Senecal, our CFO, for 4 the Hall of Fame. 5 through congress for the past two-and-a-half years. 6 So he might look a little tired today, but relieved. 7 And also Robin Vidito, development director, and kind 8 of a one-on-point really of the communication from day 9 to day for us and has done a great job. 10 Don was the one who shepherded this And I'd be remiss if I didn't mention the 11 Mint staff and what a joy it has been to work with the 12 Mint staff. 13 know, great relationship. 14 we're invited to stretch the boundaries a little bit. 15 But with all due respect, they have a wonderful velvet 16 hammer to keep us inside the box of the, of the 17 various rules we have here. 18 We have, I think, but I know a very, you We go back and forth. We, But our goal is, as I sat with the, in our 19 first meeting with the Mint director, was I'd like 20 this to be, unless I'm, I'm incorrect on this, I'd 21 like this to be the first coin that sells out. 22 is a coin -- so, so think about it. This I mean we have www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 15 1 all around the world, at any age, this coin is an 2 opportunity to touch people. So we're all looking for to engage young 3 4 people about coin collecting. 5 can do that. 6 international people about collecting coins, US minted 7 coins, basketball can do that. 8 picture. 9 I think that this allows us both to stretch ourselves 10 Through basketball you If you're looking at engaging So we see the bigger It's not just a, a core market that we have. a little bit. And then finally I'll say that I know at 1:45 11 12 today we have a marketing meeting. 13 has many platforms, constituencies where the coin, the 14 message of the coin can be shared. 15 building a brand with the approval, of course, of the, 16 of the Mint folks. 17 going to be utilized. 18 national high school event, golf tournaments. 19 at the NBA All Star game. 20 Four. The Hall of Fame We are actually We are building a brand that is We run collegiate games, a We're We're at the NCAA Final 21 We are building a brand for this over, you 22 know, the 16, 17 months that it will be running once www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 16 1 it's introduced at our enshrinement ceremony, by the 2 way, on September 6th in Springfield on stage at an 3 enshrinement. 4 with all the elements of communication that we have. 5 We're building a brand to support that So we feel very confident that this coin will 6 be very, very successful. 7 being the first sellout very seriously and I 8 appreciate the team that the Mint has provided to us. 9 I appreciate the internal team, and Donald, the hard I take the challenge of 10 work that you did. We're very excited about this 11 opportunity today. So thank you. 12 MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. We've worked hand- 13 and-glove with John and his team and they have offered 14 up five obverse designs that are their preferences. 15 One of them is their first preference. I will note 16 that as we move through the portfolio. On all of the 17 designs our liaisons with the Hall have offered 18 commentary, as well as Ron's team from Philadelphia on 19 coinability. 20 So each design may have minor modifications 21 that are needed for coinability or historical and 22 technical accuracy purposes. As we move through the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 17 1 portfolio, I will only note those for the top five 2 preferences from the Hall, but should any committee 3 member wish to know that information about any of the 4 designs that are otherwise discussed, I'd be happy to 5 provide that as well. 6 I should note that John and his team gave 7 some very important feedback about the designs. 8 are to be emblematic of the sport, and among some of 9 the feedback was the importance of communicating the 10 global reach of the sport, the inclusivity, and also 11 noting that it is a modern, dynamic, energetic game. 12 Those were among them. These So while it has a rich history that dates 13 14 back pretty far, that was not necessarily the upmost 15 priority for the Hall at that time for us to 16 communicate in the designs. 17 if you'd like to add to that list of things that the 18 Committee should be considering as we move through the 19 designs? 20 MR. DOLEVA: But I'd like to ask John No, I think that's absolutely 21 right. We had a discussion early on about whether 22 we're celebrating the invention of the game in 1891 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 18 1 basketball or are we celebrating today's basketball. 2 And I think from our standpoint we certainly are 3 respective of the history of the game, the inventor, 4 our institution and 70,000 square feet is dedicated to 5 Dr. Naismith and his invention, but that we want to 6 celebrate where that invention has gone today. 7 So it's a much more modern design. We want 8 to obviously appeal as we had discussions about target 9 markets and constituencies and other elements that we 10 want to reach out to. 11 more appropriate to have a more modernistic 12 celebration of basketball and that's where we kind of 13 hoped the designs would go and I think we've got some 14 wonderful designs here. 15 MS. STAFFORD: So we've determined that it was Wonderful. Thank you. Should 16 we take any questions or go ahead and go through the 17 portfolio? 18 19 20 CHAIR URAM: Let's do the portfolio and then we'll -MS. STAFFORD: Okay. So we'll start with 21 obverse -- sorry. The liaison preferences and we will 22 call these out as we move through the designs. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Among Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 19 1 the five are Obverse 1, 2, 9, 10, and 19, with Obverse 2 19 being the Hall's first preference. 3 will stop as we move through the entire portfolio and 4 note the Hall's preferences as we move through. 5 again, the Hall provided five preferences, among them 6 Obverse 1, 2, 9, 10, and 19, with Obverse 19 being 7 their first preference. 8 9 And again, I But This is a starting point from our discussion and I know the Hall and the representatives are very 10 eager to hear the Committee's feedback about the 11 entire portfolio. 12 Obverse 1, which again has been identified as one of 13 the five top preferences by the Hall of Fame. 14 So we'll start with discussion of Obverse 1 shows two women and two men playing 15 basketball with a globe in the background representing 16 the sport's worldwide appeal. 17 animatedly react to a tense moment. 18 figures are a reference to the seven Naismith values, 19 which include teamwork, fitness, leadership, and 20 perseverance. 21 22 Below, three spectators These seven The positioning of the spectators makes it clear that they're close to the action, a unique www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 20 1 characteristic of this sport. 2 represent both players and spectators in the 3 composition so that everyone can see themselves in the 4 design. 5 And the artist chose to The Hall of Fame likes the inclusivity, the 6 inclusion of players and fans and representation of 7 both male and, and female members and figures. 8 also like the representation of the globe as a 9 reference to the reach of the sport. They They noted that 10 the ball might have to be made a tad larger to be 11 accurate. 12 As far as coinability and anesthetic notes 13 from our team in Philadelphia, they would have to 14 adjust the net because it will not be able to touch 15 the outer rim of the coin. 16 more space between the characters of the inscription 17 Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame, and it 18 would require a consistent inner border around the 19 frame so that it's not broken up as you see here at 20 the bottom of the composition. 21 22 We'll have to add a little Moving on -- and if I could ask for participants who are joining us by teleconference to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 21 1 mute your phones, please. 2 phones, we would appreciate it. 3 If you could mute your Moving on to Obverse 2, this also is a top 4 preference of the five of the Hall of Fame. 5 design depicts a slam-dunk, one of the most exciting 6 plays in the game. 7 accentuates the concavity of the athlete's body as his 8 legs come forward through the momentum of the dunk. 9 This The perspective of the design The 60th anniversary of the Naismith Memorial 10 Basketball Hall of Fame is referenced with the number 11 on the player's jersey. 12 gave are indicated by the 13 strips on the soles of 13 each of the shoes. 14 The American roots of the The Hall of Fame commented that they really 15 appreciate the artistic style of this design and the 16 reference to the 60th anniversary and the way that the 17 year 2020 is stacked. 18 underline in the letter O in the inscription in God we 19 trust be removed, and that the basketball text be 20 moved to the side with the Hall of Fame text. 21 22 They might suggest that the Commentary from our coinability team, as well as aesthetic notes from the Mint staff in www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 22 1 Philadelphia, include that we'd have to have some 2 adjustments in the word Naismith. 3 a bit too close together. 4 on some of the other inscriptions. 5 look at the stacking and the placement of the year 6 2020 and make sure that that's optimally supporting 7 the design. And would have to add space They would like to They agree that we might have to revisit the 8 9 The A and the I are underline under the letter O, and a note to the 10 Committee, we might need to fade the rim near the 11 border a bit more. 12 Again, I'll move on to Obverse 3. I will not 13 again be reading the Hall of Fame's feedback or the 14 Mint staff's feedback on any design that at present 15 isn't identified as a top preference, but can offer 16 those at the Committee's request. 17 Obverse 3 shows a basketball hoop with the 18 word liberty incoproated in the netting, a way to 19 reference that basketball was invented in the United 20 States. 21 element to complement the curvature of the coin, as 22 well as the reverse, which must depict a basketball. The artist selected this primary device www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 23 1 In the background is a regulation basketball court. 2 Obverse 4 depicts an aerial view of a rim and 3 net utilizing the concave shape of the coin. 4 design is offered as a complement to the reverse, 5 which will feature the other iconic element of the 6 sport, the basketball itself. 7 The Obverse 5 depicts two outstretched hands 8 close to a basketball. 9 second shot, a jump ball, or a blocked shot, the image Whether the moment is a last 10 captures the energy and excitement inherent in the 11 game. 12 inclusivity of the sport and recognizes all levels of 13 the game, professional, collegiate, high school, 14 recreational, and international. 15 Depicting only the hands underscores the Obverse 6 focuses on the net and the intense 16 action that takes place near it. 17 rebound shot or a shot in progress. 18 hands reflects the universality of the game. 19 behind the hands, a semicircle, an arc present on many 20 basketball courts under the net is shown. 21 artist's placement of these elements was driven by the 22 concave shape of the coin which reflects the shape of This could be a The depiction of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Just The Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 24 1 2 the net when viewed from above. Obverse 7 depicts a jump ball capturing a 3 powerful image of action with two arms extended to 4 their upmost dynamically reaching for the basketball. 5 The inscription for the design is the universal draw 6 of basketball that brings people together through the 7 love of the sport. 8 9 Obverse 8 features a stylized basketball hoop and a basketball. Inscriptions encircle the design 10 around the border including basketball Hall of Fame 11 delineated by two basketballs on either side. 12 Obverse 9 portrays a stylized compilation of 13 arms shooting different shoots, a dunk, a layup, a 14 hook, and a jump shot to convey the feel of a fast- 15 paced, fun game. 16 of shots to highlight the fundamental essence of the 17 game - putting the ball in the basket. 18 The artist elected to show a variety This again is one of the Hall's five top 19 preferences. They noted the design and applauded the 20 modern and artistic elements. 21 inclusion of the inscription 1959 for when the Hall 22 was founded. They appreciated the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 25 1 And some coinability and aesthetic notes. 2 have to look at the space between the characters and 3 in the inscription in God we trust. 4 inscription liberty should not intersect the lines of 5 the arms. 6 and would need to be upsized, the inscription in God 7 we trust by as much as 200% perhaps, and the 8 inscription Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame 9 both width and height by as much as 25%. The RT in the Some of the border text is a tad t0o small The interior pattern you see here would not 10 11 be rendered as such. 12 the dots. 13 Harrigal can further explain. 14 proof polish immediately behind the nets. 15 We In sculpt we would have to drop If you have questions about that, Ron And there would not be Moving on to Obverse 10, which is another of 16 the top five preferences of the Hall, this design 17 centrally depicts two figures near a basket. 18 stars arcing across the bottom of the design represent 19 the six decades of the Naismith Memorial Basketball 20 Hall of Fame's existence. 21 classic look of this design, the inclusion of the 22 backboard, and the treatment of the 2020 inscription. The six The Hall of Fame likes the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 26 1 However, they feel that the depiction of only men 2 playing is a bit limiting and would request that a 3 female player be featured as well. 4 replacement of one of the male players. Or in, in Coinability and aesthetic notes from our team 5 6 in Philadelphia. 7 inscriptions, the text, is a bit too tight. 8 more space between the characters. 9 upsizing in God we trust and very minorly the splayed 10 fingers in one of the player's hands would have to be 11 closed up. 12 The spacing in the, on the We'd need It would include Obverse 22 showcases a spontaneous game of 13 hoops perhaps during recess. 14 just the ball and a few kids, and a game can begin 15 immediately. 16 show how one can develop a love of basketball at a 17 young age. 18 No special gear needed, The artist intended for this design to Obverse 12 displays a hand that launches a 19 basketball out of this world into deep space, a cosmic 20 ring replaces the traditional basket to create its own 21 planet of basketball. 22 of the city of Springfield, Massachusetts where the The design features the outline www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 27 1 game was invented and where the Naismith Memorial Hall 2 of Fame is located, and include the words Springfield 3 and 1891, the year Dr. Naismith invented the game. 4 Obverse 13 features three basketball players 5 in action, a physical representation of Dr. Naismith's 6 inspiration values. 7 are listed around the design, teamwork, respect, 8 fitness, and integrity. 9 all can play joyously at any skill level, age, or 10 11 Four of the seven Naismith values His creation of a game that gender is represented in the different figures. Obverse 14 features a rim and net with a 12 court in the background with the additional 13 inscriptions Basketball Hall of Fame and preservation, 14 inspiration, celebration. 15 Obverse 15 leverages the concavity of the 16 obverse by featuring a net which in combination with 17 the basketball required on the reverse makes a 18 powerful portrait of the game. 19 provides a central location for the required 20 inscriptions. 21 22 The net's opening Obverse 16 features major elements of the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame building www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 28 1 including a large sphere that symbolizes the global 2 reach of the game. 3 like vector which depicts the momentum of the ball. 4 In the foreground is a basketball player on a fence, 5 offense moving so fast his individual features are 6 blurred. 7 go through the hoop in the foreground. The ball flowing from his hand is about to Obverse 18 heralds the energy and excitement 8 9 Accenting the sphere is an arrow- of basketball by depicting the high energy and up- 10 close action of the game. 11 basketball team. 12 star also signifies the stars of the sport 13 acknowledged by the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall 14 of Fame. 15 The star represents a Five points for five players. The Obverse 19 portrays the intense, hands-on 16 action of the game of basketball, the constant 17 struggle for possession of the ball, and the skill 18 required to overcome the opponent and put the ball 19 through the hoop. 20 figures all reaching for the ball in unison, 21 suggesting how the sport has brought together millions 22 of diverse people from around the world through a The design features three different www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 29 1 2 simple universal and unifying athletic experience. Their arms are intentionally elongated just 3 slightly to emphasize the full exertion of physical 4 and mental effort required to excel in the game. 5 rim and net are presented as subtle background 6 elements to compliment the primary figures. 7 The As noted, this is the first preferred design 8 from the Hall of Fame of their five that they have 9 identified. They noted they appreciated this design 10 very much for the inclusive nature including genders 11 and abilities. 12 rim as the edge of the coin and felt that the net did 13 not get lost in the design. 14 They also appreciated the use of the Worth noting, the uniforms are depicted 15 accurately. 16 applying a different treatment for the inscription 17 2020 and incorporating Basketball Hall of Fame as an 18 inscription perhaps. 19 They would like to hear about potentially Feedback from our Mint team in Philadelphia 20 regarding coinability and aesthetic comments. 21 basketball cannot intersect with the outer rim. 22 running over the border, may need to shift them to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 The Legs Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 30 1 make the border cleaner due to the concave shape of 2 the, the coin. 3 the border in the same way that we do with other 4 coins. And the black channels, the black in the 5 channels of the basketball would need to be lighter, 6 more within a tonal range. 7 Border elements cannot extend out to And finally, Obverse 20 centrally features a 8 basketball. 9 Obverse 20 centrally features a ball with an image of I apologize. There are two more. 10 a globe to symbolize the global outreach of the sport. 11 The ball has passed through the hoop and net 12 representing the path from the past to the present to 13 the future of the sport. 14 broken in particular areas. 15 The netting is detached and Following clockwise along the circular shape 16 of the net on the outer most layer the word Naismith 17 can be seen. 18 and basketball in the inner most layer. 19 is inscribed between the central basketball and the 20 net using a similar pattern inspired by the net. 21 22 Memorial is depicted in the second layer Hall of Fame And finally, Obverse 21 depicts an aerial view of a basketball hoop. Looking down, the viewer www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 31 1 sees the rim of the hoop through the inside of the 2 net. 3 shape of the obverse is meant to convey a feeling of 4 depth. This design in conjunction with the concave And that concludes the obverse designs. 5 6 Mr. Chairman? 7 CHAIR URAM: Thank you very much, April. And 8 before we move on just for attendance purposes, Robert 9 Hoge, are you on the phone? 10 MR. HOGE: 11 CHAIR URAM: 12 MR. HOGE: 13 CHAIR URAM: Yes. Okay. Thank you. Yes. Okay. Are there any technical 14 questions from the committee before we move on to 15 designs and discussion? 16 are there any technical questions on your side that we 17 should be aware of? 18 MR. HARRIGAL: Seeing none, Ron Harrigal, None at this point. I mean 19 these designs are from external artists and we have 20 addressed coinability to them. 21 have been incorporated in this design. 22 concepts. Not all the revisions It is their And so there will be slight changes of, of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 32 1 the design based on what the Committee preferences 2 are. 3 CHAIR URAM: Perfect. Thank you. When I 4 introduced myself to John Robin and, and Robin, Robin, 5 John, Don. 6 to a small basketball school, the University of 7 Kentucky, and I think they understood that. 8 I'm going to start out with, I think with a 9 boilermaker and why don’t we start out with Mr. Mike There you go. I mentioned that I had gone 10 Moran on the phone. 11 on that or dribble, whatever you want to do? 12 MR. MORAN: 13 CHAIR URAM: 14 MR. MORAN: 15 CHAIR URAM: And so And Mike, do you want to pick up Yeah. Take the shot. I've got season tickets. I know. 16 points for basketball tickets. 17 MR. MORAN: I traded him some Yeah, (inaudible - off phone 18 mic). 19 that (inaudible) and the one of my favorite is No. 2. 20 I think it's dynamic in nature. 21 certainly a team sport, when you look at the 22 basketball players today, it's made up of a lot of Okay. I'm just going to talk about the ones While basketball is www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 33 1 individuals. 2 people like Anthony Davis, (inaudible) player, but 3 there are others that are really good. 4 and we had one on our committee, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. 5 I saw him play. 6 Michael Jordan. 7 They play together. But you think of You go back Saw him beat the tar out of Perdue. To me this image is good. 8 reasonably coinable. 9 coming at you. I think it is I think the idea of the feet I've seen these kinds of dunks all the 10 time, every game I go to watch. 11 it will show up on a concave surface will be 12 excellent. I'm not a fan of No. 9. 13 It's nice. It's modern, but that's not me. 14 take me to water, but I'm not going to drink it. And I think the way I, I get it. You can Let's talk about 19, the Hall of Fame 15 16 favorite. It's also one of mine. (Inaudible) talk 17 about is bleeding into edges and I get that. 18 asking the Mint to do something that the technology is 19 not there to support with this design. They're 20 The other thing is when you look at the 21 reverses, and I know that we need to choose these 22 things individually, I'm guessing the need for the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 34 1 Naismith Hall of Fame to be in there in the 2 inscriptions, and I can't get it there as I look at 3 this obverse without cluttering it and losing some of 4 the design, design. 5 really have some issues and I think that it won't look 6 as good as it is rendered here on the page. 7 I'll be voting for it, but I No. 18, I'll vote for it simply because that 8 guy's about to get called for palming the ball and 9 he's going to turn it over. 10 11 CHAIR URAM: Thank you. 12 That's it, Tom. Thank you very much, Mr. Mike. Move along. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Dr. Dean Kotlowski? Okay. I am going to -- I 13 applaud the artists for what they have, what they've 14 done in giving us a real diversity here of designs to 15 look at. 16 was drawn to -- I really do like the classic design of 17 No. 10. 18 it's not the identified favorite. 19 1 the inclusion of the spectators. 20 19 is, is, is very striking as well. 21 have -- I know we're not supposed to talk about the 22 reverses yet, but I did have stronger preferences with As I looked through these the first time, I I know that, that is one of the favorites, so I, I do like in No. And I, I think No. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 And I think I Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 35 1 the, with the reverses than the obverses. 2 So I just want to raise one issue about No. 3 19 and I don’t want to, you know, invite any 4 controversy here, but we were looking at a coin during 5 my first meeting and we were talking a little bit 6 about how you picked, depict people of different 7 abilities in a way that's respectful. 8 have any issue here, but I'm, I'm just wondering if, 9 if that's a concern. 10 And I don’t It's not really a concern of mine, but I'm 11 just kind of interested in if anybody has any insights 12 'cause I think it is very striking that you have three 13 very different people, you know, with these elongated 14 arms stretching and striving. 15 very powerful. And the symbolism is 16 CHAIR URAM: Thank you, Dean. 17 MR. JANSEN: Is this mic on? 18 CHAIR URAM: Are the members still on the 19 Is this mic on? phone? 20 MR. WEINMAN: 21 MS. STAFFORD: 22 Erik? I think we lost Paul. Anyone on the call. can pause, Mr. Chairman, if you like. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Okay. We Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 36 1 CHAIR URAM: Sure. 2 MS. STAFFORD: Okay. This is United States 3 Mint. Do we still have folks on the line? 4 want to start with the CACC members to ensure that 5 they're there? 6 CHAIR URAM: Yeah, and they said 17 are on 7 the line. 8 verify, Robert Hoge present? That's what we started with. Robert? 9 MR. TUCKER: Present. 10 CHAIR URAM: Thank you. 11 MR. MORAN: 12 CHAIR URAM: Just to Dennis Tucker? Dennis Tucker. Michael Moran? Present. Thank you. 13 up. 14 catch on, you know, to connect. 15 to Erik. 16 interruption. 17 Maybe we We'll follow back Robert probably takes a little bit longer to Erik, thank you. MR. JANSEN: Okay. We were moving Sorry for the With all due respect to our 18 Chair and the prior speaker from Kentucky, I'm 6'6" 19 and I came from the real place of basketball, and that 20 would be Indiana. 21 Kentucky (crosstalk). 22 CHAIR URAM: That's right cross the river from He'd love to be -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 37 1 MR. MORAN: 2 MR. JANSEN: 3 at us all the time. 4 hand here. 5 He'd be throwing a chair. They throw things over the river All right. On to the task at I have two comments directed to the Mint and 6 this is real requests and recommendations. 7 obviously are charged to follow the mission as defined 8 by Congess and the Hill on programs like this. 9 However, to the extent that we have input back to We 10 them, I have two messages that I'd ask the Mint to 11 consider carrying back up to the Hill. 12 One, programs where we have one design for 13 all three sized coins create a real missed 14 opportunity. 15 inch-and-a-half approximately in diameter, versus what 16 we can do on a gold pallet are approximately the size 17 of a nickel for totally different missions. 18 What we can do on a large silver pallet, So to have one piece of art we necessarily 19 fail on the silver and we have to accommodate the gold 20 because it's such a small pallet. 21 can't speak for the Committee, but in the experience 22 of history here, to the extent we can recommend So I think the, I www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 38 1 Congress not pick one design fits all, we'll be able 2 to do a better job. The second point I'd like to make is I think 3 4 we've missed the boat here on this legislation just 5 like we did on the prior athletic concave, convex 6 coin. 7 circulation here. 8 someone goes to a basketball game and they buy a drink 9 or a slice of pizza or something that's concession, if And that is there's not a product for general Let me paint a picture for you. If 10 there was a circulating version of this, let's just 11 say a flat, non-concave, minimize costs, get a product 12 out that could be given in change at the concession 13 stand, we would go ten times further, faster, better 14 towards attracting new collectors, and quite honestly, 15 painting a picture that this program offers coinage 16 for the general population. 17 We always struggle with price points to cover 18 costs and surcharges, but if such a coin could have 19 been put out there through the Fed at circulating face 20 value, this program would have sold itself. 21 and I'm going to recommend strongly to the Naismith 22 executives here, you're going to have to market this www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 As it is, Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 39 1 hard. 2 maker will probably be the silver dollar because of 3 price point and popularity. 4 lot. 5 It's the silver dollar that's your moneymaker here. 6 Market it aggressively and you'll do much, much 7 better. 8 9 It will not sell itself. Your primary money The gold will not sell a You'll be lucky if you sell 2 or 3,000 of these. So thank you for indulging my comments there. As I went through this portfolio, first of all, a couple of comments. I found there were many 10 many cases, and I think a public submission process is 11 a wonderful way of injecting new spirit and ideas; 12 however, I would encourage the artists to pay close 13 attention to the ergonomics. 14 I am a ballplayer. I was played to dribble 15 with my eyes closed through my legs and make a shot 16 without even knowing where the basket is. 17 the gestures in so many of these drawings are not, 18 they're just not right. 19 distracting to me. 20 The hands, And so they're very, very Second of all, I found there were a number of 21 trite symbols. It was very easy to accommodate a net, 22 but this coin is not about a net. This coin needs to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 40 1 be about energy. 2 this down to a few designs that in many cases were 3 overlapping the preferences of the Naismith people. 4 So I'll address the ones that I think deserve 5 consideration and let the others go. To that end I very quickly winnowed A thinking man's coin here or a thinking 6 7 woman's coin, a thinking player's coin, would be 8 Design 1, Design 19, potentially Design 10. 9 thinking designs will not sell this coin. However, Action 10 designs will sell this coin and there's only one coin 11 that truly, only one design that truly carries that 12 forward here. 13 I was extremely pleased that Design No. 2 was 14 a preference because to me this is no-brainer design 15 for this coin. 16 it will be a sculpture's challenge to convey the 17 feeling on the player's face. 18 Heidi Wastweet, an ex-member of this committee, would 19 have said to us be careful. 20 rabbit. 21 We've seen that in many coins where it's an open mouth 22 with teeth. It, a coin has to convey feeling and Mouth open with teeth, It's going to look like a We saw that in the Ronald Reagan dollar. This is a sculptor's challenge. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 41 1 The second challenge will be the eyes are 2 closed. 3 the gold, an extremely small coin. 4 dollar it'll be a little bit easier to see. 5 is a coin of energy. 6 that, that, that answers the charge to make this a 7 coin which will satisfy the buyer that wants to 8 replicate the feeling, the energy, the spark, the 9 moment of scoring which is what basketball is about. 10 11 That's a very, very small feature on, with With the silver But this To me it's the only coin that, Thank you very much. CHAIR URAM: Thank you, Erik. And I agree, 12 we had the similar issue with six coins with the 13 Apollo not having different designs -- 14 MS. STAFFORD: Yes. 15 CHAIR URAM: -- when -- 16 MR. JANSEN: It's been a lesson that we seem 17 to fail to learn. I mean lawyers that want to be 18 artists, how about artists that want to be lawyers? 19 CHAIR URAM: 20 MR. MORAN: 21 CHAIR URAM: 22 Okay. It's an either or. Okay. Ron, do you have any comments on the (inaudible) sizes as it relates to any www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 42 1 of these designs that you'd like to get out before we 2 continue on with our discussion? 3 MR. HARRIGAL: I think Erik hit it on the 4 head when he said that, you know, the designs have to 5 accommodate both, the silver dollar size as well as 6 the gold, which is a .850, size of a nickel. 7 yeah, we have to -- a lot of these comments are more 8 geared towards on the smallest size when we talk about 9 having to respace text and upsize the text. 10 CHAIR URAM: 11 MR. HARRIGAL: So, So you'll focus on what -Yeah, and we do, we do have, 12 you know, successful programs that have the same 13 designs, but we also have unsuccessful. 14 you know, the gold bullion and, and the, and the 15 buffalo, American Buffalo series and that. 16 those are collected for different reasons. 17 We have the, But again, You know, we had breast cancer; it had the 18 same designs. 19 But, yes, there are pros and cons definitely there. 20 But yeah, accommodating the smallest size is really 21 what we look at when we talk about spacing of text and 22 the size of the text and what we can actually do from And we have had the Apollo and that. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 43 1 an engraving standpoint. 2 3 CHAIR URAM: MR. SCARINCI: MS. 7 MR. SCARINCI: 8 workaround? 9 three? 11 12 13 WEINMAN: Don? I'm sorry. Can I ask a Yes. Are you sure there's no Are we stuck with one design for all There's no -MR. WEINMAN: I'll let my colleague, April Whitaker, comment, but it's in the legislation. MS. STAFFORD: Right. The legislature requires one design. 14 MR. 15 CHAIR URAM: 16 Thank you. question to Greg? 6 10 Perfect. Robert, excuse me one second. 4 5 Okay. WEINMAN: No way to -Those are common, but it specifically says common obverse, common reverse. 17 MS. STAFFORD: 18 MR. JANSEN: That's a shame. 19 CHAIR URAM: And I, and I think that gets That's too bad. It's a tragedy. 20 back to the, the education side of on this. 21 ideas, but when it comes down to the specific, and I 22 think that we're doing a better job getting the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Great Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 44 1 message out to congress people that, you know, to, to 2 be a little bit more, look beyond just the topic and 3 just beyond what they're trying to accomplish. 4 So I think that Betty's doing, you know, 5 getting that word out there much more now than it had 6 been before. So Robert, are you on the phone? 7 MS. STAFFORD: 8 CHAIR URAM: 9 MR. MORAN: 10 11 Did we lose everybody again? Hello. Michael? I'm, I'm here. CHAIR URAM: Okay. Robert, we'll come back. I don’t think -- 12 MR. WEINMAN: 13 CHAIR URAM: Okay. 14 MS. LANNIN: These were challenges for me I e-mailed Robert. Mary. 15 mostly because I'm like under 5'6". 16 liked No. 2. 17 did like the favorite, which is No. 19. 18 at our large scale drawings and see them 19 representative of the actual size that they'll be, I 20 think, you know, Ron is this right? 21 will work for coinability. 22 But anyway, I too I agree with what Erik said. MR. HARRIGAL: And I also When we look I think that 19 Absolutely. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I mean we, you Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 45 1 have to look at the rim depicted there is going to be 2 inside the border. 3 know. 4 As you get close to the border, we just have to fade 5 the artwork down. 6 there. 7 So the artwork would have to, you It would, it would be coined as shown there. So there's not a lot of detail I think, I think we'll be okay. And we also have to keep in mind that this 8 has to be a proof coin and an uncirculated coin. 9 that when we look at the field on here, we have the So 10 net structure that's on the field. 11 proof coin, that would be polished. 12 at some way to depict the net maybe with like a laser 13 texture or something like that that would show the net 14 on, on the, on the polished field for the proof coin. 15 And also allow it to be like a burnished finish for, 16 for the uncirculated. 17 MS. LANNIN: Now typically on a We'd have to look Well, I liked this one very much 18 be, because of the inclusion. 19 equally going for the same basketball. 20 there's, there's really not a barrier whether it's 21 ability, disability, or gender. 22 going for the same thing. All three people are You know, so And so they're all So that was what was really www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 46 1 important to me in this. 2 In terms of just something that I found was 3 interesting that we haven't talked about is No. 4. 4 just thought that that was a really, it was a 5 beautiful design. 6 the shading on it was very interesting and that it 7 would certainly go along with any reverse that we 8 would pick. 9 10 It was simple and I thought that So my choices would be No. 2 possibly with his eyes open. 11 12 I I don’t know why his eyes are closed. MR. JANSEN: That's actually what happens to the human mind when you -- 13 MS. LANNIN: But it's weird to look at, Erik. 14 MR. JANSEN: It's, it's, it's reality. 15 MS. LANNIN: I know. 16 at. I'm sorry. It's just weird to look So, and No. 19. And that's all. 17 CHAIR URAM: Thank you. 2 and 19? 18 MS. LANNIN: 2 and 19. 19 CHAIR URAM: Mm-hm. 20 MS. SALMON: Well, I, I went kind of in the Thank you. Robin? 21 opposite direction. I really like the net, and the 22 thinking of, of that imagery as being more artistic, I www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 47 1 guess. 2 net. 3 me. 4 letters in it, but I would think that that would be 5 enough of a challenge to people who collect coins such 6 as this that it would develop more interest in people 7 wanting to get it so that they could find the letters. And also how some words were woven into the So No. 3, No. 4, No. 15, and No. 20 intrigued No. 20 in particular. I could be totally wrong on that, but I 8 9 I, I couldn't find all the thought it was very interesting. The idea of this 10 being a universal symbol of the game along with the 11 basketball I think was important to me. 12 it was depicted was, was different than most of the 13 other designs. And just how I also liked No. 19 if, a design with people 14 15 in it for all of the reasons that have been already 16 addressed. 17 works with the final coin itself. 18 those five choices, 3, 4, 15, 19, and 20. 19 20 CHAIR URAM: Thank you. I thought I heard him on. 21 22 And of course making sure that the design MR. GILL: artists. Sam. So those, I like Robert? Not on yet. We'll go to Sam. Well, first I commend the, the They're all very interesting to me. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I'll Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 48 1 just go through my top two or three here. 2 2. 3 marketable, No. 2 is. 4 inclusiveness about it and I like the competition. 5 went with activity. 6 activity on them. I like No. I think to Erik's points, it's certainly And I like No. 19. I like the I I looked at the coins that had And I focused my preference on No. 10 for 7 8 this, for these reasons. 9 competition between two players. It shows a competition, That's kind of how I 10 think of basketball. 11 mentions the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of 12 Fame. 13 got the, the rim up there and the net. 14 would, it would just make a very beautiful coin. And then I like the fact that it And I just think that this would -- and it's 15 CHAIR URAM: 16 MR. SCARINCI: Okay, Sam. And I think it Thank you. Donald? First thing, the first thing I 17 want to say is, you know, a compliment to everyone -- 18 is there a mic? 19 submitted these designs. 20 did a fabulous job with the designs and everyone who 21 submitted a design, we should absolutely send them an 22 application for the artist infusion program next year A compliment to everyone who And I think, I think they www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 49 1 and be sure they, be sure they apply. 2 They did a great job and they were very, 3 these are very creative designs and, and, and you all 4 know particularly which one I like the most, right? 5 So No. 1. 6 we all need to focus on the fact that this is a 7 concave coin, right? 8 designs like this one might look great if the coin 9 were flat, you know, when, you know, have to, you No. 2, I want to, I want to, I really think So, you know, while some of the 10 really have to, your mind have has to really bend it 11 and ask, and ask how's it going to look at a concave. 12 And then you're kind of stuck with it in all three 13 coins. 14 So whatever we pick, it's got to work with 15 all three of the sizes, right? 16 have to think of. 17 which is the concaveness, right? 18 have the advantage of using this little board to see, 19 which is the, which is the size of the pallet. 20 always have difficulty with the size of the pallet. 21 And unfortunately you have to look at the smallest 22 size that we're given, which is the gold. So the two things we One, we have to use our mind for, And the other, we www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 And we So it can't Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 50 1 be too cluttered and crowded because of the gold. 2 So that's the real tragedy of one design for 3 all three coins, unfortunately, but that's what it is. 4 We don’t decide that. 5 boss is Congress. 6 know, I, I, I look at these designs and of course, you 7 know, you, you all know, you all know the designs. 8 You, I probably don’t even have to say which one that 9 I like. Our boss decides that and our So all of that being said, you You all know I think No. 9 is great, right? 10 I think it's, I think it's a great basketball coin. 11 think there's a lot -- it has so much going for it as 12 a coin, as a design. I could see the, I could see why you liked 13 14 No. 2. 15 would -- that's really going to be challenge to the, 16 to the sculpt, to, to sculpt it, but I mean we 17 absolutely have the talent, you know, to, to sculpt 18 this. 19 it, but it will be a challenge. 20 probably in, in a concave, in a concave coin, this 21 might be cool, you know. 22 I I think, I think it's going to be a -- that So there's no question we have the talent to do And, and, and So, so while they may say -- oh, somebody www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 51 1 just -- 2 CHAIR URAM: 3 MR. SCARINCI: 4 CHAIR URAM: I'm passing it down so -Oh. -- it gets down to John and 5 everybody so they can see -- now that's the half 6 dollar coin. 7 MR. SCARINCI: 8 CHAIR URAM: 9 MR. SCARINCI: This is the half dollar coin. You have it now? Okay. So, so, so what 2 has going 10 for it, right, it's a simple, you know, it's 11 relatively simple. 12 smaller designs, you know, it, it's more simple for 13 the smaller designs than for the larger designs. It's one, one element. So for the What I'm concerned about for 19, which, you 14 15 know, which, you know, I, I have to be the one to 16 articulate this because I'm the democrat on the 17 committee and I have to, and I'm the, I'm the, I'm 18 the, I'm the appointee of the democrat, right? 19 should be the one to say this, but I have to say this, 20 right? So I It's too politically correct. 21 MR. JANSEN: 22 MR. SCARINCI: I agree. And it's a 2020 coin, right, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 52 1 which is like the wrong year to be, to have a 2 politically correct coin. 3 to be the one to say this. 4 And I have to be the one to say it. 5 just, I just don't know about -- I just don’t know -- 6 I just don’t know that it's the right thing to do at 7 that time. You know, so I really have Nobody else can say this. All right. I 8 So I would caution, you know, you to think 9 about that 'cause you're going to be the one selling 10 it in 2020. 11 So that's my concern. 12 with it, you know, it, it might be kind of cool in a 13 concave way 'cause, you know, you'll, you'll play with 14 it. 15 little bit and it might be kind of cool. 16 Because when you going to sell it, right? You'll get it. And I think if you, if you play You know, you'll smoosh it a Design wise on the gold, it's going to be 17 kind of squishy on the gold. 18 be a little squishy on the half dollar. 19 lot going on there. 20 basketball's going to be teeny-tiny on the gold. 21 basketball's going to be really teeny-tiny. 22 And it's going to even So there's a Three, three figures, the The So even from a design point of view, there's www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 53 1 just a lot going on there for the gold one and maybe 2 too much even for the, for the little half dollar. So for that, for the, for the, for the silver 3 4 dollar, you're fine. So, but anyway, my concern with 5 that is what I said. So I think, you know. 6 much as I like No. 1 'cause you all know I kind of 7 like No. 1, I really like No. 1 for the dollar, but 8 I've got the same concern with No. 1 for the gold and 9 for the half dollar. And as There's a lot going on there. Although, I think No. 1 is really, is really 10 11 cool. 12 and I, I also think -- you know, Rob, Robin made a 13 really good comment about, about the baskets. 14 I do think, I do think the baskets would work 15 fabulously. 16 ability to have separate designs, I would absolutely 17 put the basket on the gold. 18 perfect for the little gold. 19 20 21 22 I think No. 1 works. So, you know, so, so -- I mean And if, and if in fact we have the MR. JANSEN: On the little gold, it's Unfortunately we don’t have that flexibility. MR. SCARINCI: I know. I know. Which is why I was hoping for Greg and his, and his battery of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 54 1 legal interns who are here for the summer to -- 2 CHAIR URAM: 3 MR. SCARINCI: 4 To wave the magic wand. To maybe came up with some hook. 5 MR. JANSEN: We would, we would love to able 6 to use the gold as the thematic area and the silver 7 and the half as the action character carrier, but we 8 don’t have that flexibility. 9 MR. SCARINCI: I know. I mean because the 10 basket, that basket one that Robin is talking about 11 would be great for the gold. 12 great gold coin. 13 and I'm trying to stick with the four because I think, 14 I think you all did a fabulous -- you know, you've 15 just done, you've clearly done your homework and 16 you've clearly done a lot of, a great job, you know. 17 It would really make a So you know, with, with, you know, And, and you've put a lot of thought into it 18 and, you know, you put a lot of time into this, you 19 know. 20 you know, and what I'm going to say to you really is, 21 you know, you know, you know, you have all the makings 22 of a winner here and you've got to top baseball And, and I guess, you know, you know, in my, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 55 1 because, you know, baseball, just so you know, 2 baseball, the baseball half dollar won a coin of the 3 year award after a seven year dry spell for the United 4 States Mint without winning an ward. 5 won, won a, won a coin of the year award. 6 The baseball So, you know, now you can't always control 7 how an award gets won, but you can control selling 8 out. So. CHAIR URAM: 9 10 So you want to follow that hit up with a slam dunk. 11 MR. SCARINCI: 12 MR. DOLEVA: Mr. Chairman, can I, can I 14 CHAIR URAM: Sure. 15 MR. SCARINCI: 13 Exactly. respond? Go ahead. I definitely want you to 16 respond and I want you to, and I want to hear your 17 opinion and I would love also to call upon the Mint's 18 marketing people, marketing director as well. 19 like to put you on the spot with, with a question 20 about marketing this thing and what you, and what you 21 think and what our marketing director thinks as well 22 would, would sell the best. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I'd Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 56 1 MR. DOLEVA: So let me respond if I could 2 first to the politically correct aspect of your 3 comments. 4 will, I will tell you, you know, we only have to 5 rewind six days and think about the women's national 6 soccer team and what -- And I get what you're saying there. 7 MR. LANNIN: Thank you very much. 8 MR. DOLEVA: -- impact of that was. 9 I And I will tell you that quietly, but soon I'm sure to, to 10 bubble up will be the women's basketball side as well. 11 We reviewed this with several hall of famers. 12 know we induct both men and women players, coaches, 13 contributors. You In fact, we made up -- the first sample we 14 15 made to go to congress and try to hype this thing up, 16 we had none other than Jerry West, Bob Cousy. 17 Kareem. 18 was the fifth? 19 on a coin to go to congress and say if we could do 20 something like this, and we take it back to the Hall 21 of Fame and we show a, a collection, you know, of our 22 Hall of Famers, and the women go something's missing, We had Karl Malone. Jerry West. Did I say Cousy? We had Who So if we have five images www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 57 1 there's something missing here, it's a big part of the 2 game, the women's game. 3 I think from a marketing standpoint and from 4 a, and this is perhaps something that this committee 5 doesn’t, doesn't worry about, but from a, a commentary 6 standpoint, from a newsworthy standpoint, I think not 7 giving consideration to having a woman represented on 8 this coin would be a risk. 9 CHAIR URAM: Thank you, John. 10 MS. LANNIN: Thank you. 11 CHAIR URAM: Appreciate it. 12 MS. LANNIN: Yes. 13 CHAIR URAM: Don, anything further? 14 MS. SCARINCI: 15 MR. DOLEVA: 16 MS. SCARINCI: I'd like to hear from -The marketing side? -- the, the marketing, my 17 marketing question for you and for, and for our 18 marketing which design -- I'm going to put you on the 19 spot and, you know, 'cause now you've heard a lot of 20 commentary and you've heard a lot of what we all 21 think. 22 I'm happy with -- But, but I really want to sell out on this and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 58 1 2 CHAIR URAM: finish. 3 MS. SCARINCI: 4 CHAIR URAM: 5 MS. SCARINCI: 6 (Crosstalk) comment when we Okay. Let's do it that way. I'll, I'll hold the question until the end. 7 CHAIR URAM: 8 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 9 Chairman. Okay. Jeanne? Okay. Thank you, Mr. I, you know, my, my initial response to 10 this portfolio, which is I think outstanding, and I 11 have to agree with Robin. 12 you know, it seemed to fit with our, our shape. 13 must say to listen to the stakeholders, to listen to 14 your passion about what we need to have represented 15 and inclusion and everything about basketball, you 16 have certainly inspired me to change my, my mind. 17 thank you very much. 18 I loved the basket because, But I So And I was very happy to, once I changed my 19 mind, to know that your preference is No. 19 'cause I 20 do think that that's the most inclusive. 21 concerns me about this is, as Donald said, you have 22 such a lot of information on a small coin, the gold. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 But what Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 59 1 The other thing that concerns me is how are 2 we going to get all of the, the Naismith Memorial on 3 that coin? But -MS. STAFFORD: 4 Just, just a note. It's 5 certainly not a requirement and I know that our, our 6 representatives from the Hall are, are open to the 7 possibility of it not. 8 they said it would be, it would be preferable. 9 don’t know that it's a requirement, especially given 10 But I the various sizes. 11 12 It was just something that MR. DOLEVA: We've had discussion about the packaging that the coins would come in. 13 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 14 MR. DOLEVA: Okay. So -- -- materials that would go with 15 it in telling the Naismith story to, to a great 16 extent. 17 impactful coin. 18 sides of the coin, and provide those additional 19 materials once a purchase is made, and during the 20 marketing process of marketing to people that we kind 21 of tell the whole story. 22 tell the whole story with two sides of a coin. So our thought process was it's a very It represents the entire game on both But you can't, you know, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 So it Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 60 1 gives us the opportunity to educate beyond that. 2 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Okay. Thank you very 3 much. 4 inclusion, and I also like No. 1 because No. 1 is a 5 little bit more contemporary and I think it probably 6 would strike -- convincingly we have, you know, the 7 action of the spectators and the action of the 8 players. 9 various genders. I, I, I truly like No. 19 because of its And we have the inclusion of the, the So, you know, I'm, I'm going, I'm going to 10 11 support 19, 1, and 2 and No. 2 because it is so 12 dynamic. 13 a woman on there. The only problem with No. 2 is we don’t have So thank you. 14 CHAIR URAM: Thank you, Jeanne. 15 MR. JANSEN: Just a thought here. Yes? Because 16 the, I think the perspective went out to the public 17 had the date, in God we trust, and liberty as the 18 required elements, I assume that once we harmonize the 19 design here with the opposition side, we'll then 20 address where we're going to drop potentially the 21 values, the Naismith Memorial Basketball and so forth. 22 So, so the text is not the issue here. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 It's really Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 61 1 artistic design. 2 The second thing is I have a question on No. 3 20, Design No. 20. 4 I think the artist misspelled Naismith if I'm not -- 5 the correct spelling is N-A-I? 6 7 And I, I mentioned this to Robin. MS. STAFFORD: That, that's correct and it's something -- 8 MR. JANSEN: 9 MS. STAFFORD: And I think it says N-I-A. It's, that's correct and we 10 did notice that. 11 could speak to and of course it would be remediated 12 should it be -- 13 It was something that we felt we MR. JANSEN: Okay. And I'm certainly not 14 advancing this, but we're going to end up going into 15 design by committee mode, which is almost always a 16 mess. 17 CHAIR URAM: Thank you, Erik. 18 MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 19 Okay. Can everyone hear me? 20 CHAIR URAM: Very good, Dennis. 21 MR. TUCKER: Okay. 22 Dennis? voice to what Erik said. Thanks. Thank you. I want to add my I think he spoke very www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 62 1 eloquently and, and summed up some of the issues that 2 we face with the legislation coming out of congress. 3 The, the limitation of having a single obverse and 4 reverse pair of designs for three different coins, not 5 only from a technical standpoint as we've discussed, 6 having to design for the smallest template, the five 7 dollar gold, we, there's that issue. 8 9 But we're also missing out on an opportunity to really broaden a program's scope and appeal and 10 tell a story, as we sometimes say, of how six 11 different emphases rather than just two. 12 little disappointed that we continue to see that, that 13 kind of legislation coming out and I hope that they 14 can change. 15 So I, I'm a The, the idea of having a coin for 16 circulation is interesting as well. 17 wonderful circulating quarter now. 18 that, that gets into other congressional elements that 19 is required. 20 I mean there's a But of course So as I was going through these designs, I, I 21 was struck by the fact that every commercial dye 22 making firm in the United States has an inventory of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 63 1 stock of basketball designs, right? You see them in 2 school awards and metals for competitions. 3 lot of basketball swishing in nets, balls and nets, 4 hands gripping basketball. 5 these designs, I was onboard for anything that puts 6 those parameters behind and, and leave those cliches 7 behind. We see a So when I was looking at 8 I really liked No. 2, No. 13, and No. 19. 9 No. 2 has energy that Erik was talking about that a 10 lot of us noted. 11 aspects of it. 12 will really be an issue here. 13 broaden the market and the appeal of, of the design. 14 And it just kind of illustrates how if we had three 15 obverse pairs to work with, we would be able to tell a 16 lot more of the story of basketball. 17 and the inclusive one for design. 18 No. 19, I, I love the, the inclusive I don’t think political correctness I think that would And (inaudible) (Inaudible - off phone mic) the Mint's 19 feedback on the design side and also our liaisons' 20 feedback on, on designs that were not among their top 21 five choices. 22 of No. 13. I'm curious to hear what they thought For me that one stood out for its use of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 64 1 the, the Naismith focus on teamwork, respect, fitness, 2 integrity. 3 every design. 4 Those are things that we don’t see in And, and here it is spelled out. I like the 5 fact that it's spelled out here so it kind of elevates 6 basketball to more than just a game or a past time 7 and, and gets to some of the important, the other 8 important aspects that Naismith was going for 9 (inaudible). 10 Any (inaudible) comments on 13? MS. STAFFORD: Absolutely. From our 11 colleagues at the Hall of Fame, they complimented this 12 designation for depicting the diversity of figures and 13 the inclusion of some of the Naismith principles. 14 However, they noted that the basketballs in the 15 background were reading to the, more like volleyballs 16 in the way that the figures are interacting with them. 17 And noted that the proportions of the ball to the 18 figures would also have to be adjusted. 19 From the team in Philadelphia for 20 coinability, as well as aesthetic commentary, the 21 inscription in God we trust would have to be upsized, 22 as well as the inscription liberty. And I'll ask Ron www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 65 1 to comment. 2 the foot over the zero in 2020. 3 area. 4 wanted to add? 5 We have a note that we cannot have the, So, in the lower I don’t know, Ron, if you had anything you MR. HARRIGAL: Yeah. The, in addition to 6 that, I would think that net creates a bit of the 7 challenge to making a proof and uncirculated coin. 8 And I think similar to No. 19 we'd have to look at 9 some sort of maybe using a laser texture for the net 10 feature in the background. 11 you have the single depicted circle for the border. 12 I think outside of that, We'd have to define whether that is truly a 13 bead or a change in elevation. 14 affect how that foot, how we'd have to sculpt that 15 foot, yeah. 16 agree with all the other comments. 17 And then that would In that perspective I think, I think I MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Ron and April. One, 18 I'm kind of torn here. 19 think it's a, it's a great design from the perspective 20 of being inclusive and welcoming many different kinds 21 of players and participants and spectators. 22 great appeal in that. I, I really like No. 19. I There's From a marketing perspective, I www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 66 1 think No. 2 is the most exciting, the most energetic, 2 and probably would be one that really resonates. 3 on the vitriol level with, with a big audience. 4 and 19 are the strongest candidates in my opinion. 5 6 7 CHAIR URAM: Okay. Thank you, Dennis. But So 2 And is Robert -- Robert, are you available on the phone? MR. WEINMAN: Robert just informed me by e- 8 mail that he can hear everything we're saying, but we 9 seem to be having trouble hearing him. 10 CHAIR URAM: Robert, if you would like to 11 then document through e-mail since we can't hear you, 12 and you could score and make your comments. 13 14 MR. WEINMAN: Is your phone muted, Robert? Can you check your mute on your phone? 15 CHAIR URAM: 16 MR. WEINMAN: 17 CHAIR URAM: On mute? Robert? Well, while they're checking on 18 that, I'll just make a couple comments and then we'll 19 ask him one more time. 20 mail through your -- you guys can communicate. 21 first of all, everyone's mentioned the motion and what 22 we have here and that's exciting. If not, we can do it via e- And I was www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I too Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 67 1 originally pretty much going with that and I like 19 2 as well. 3 net, you know, just too bad. 4 Those were my two picks, as well as like the But on this one I also like the fact that you 5 kind of bring Special Olympics into this as well, you 6 know, into the, into the fray of the entire marketing 7 aspect of this as well. 8 basketball shouldn't even be there. 9 have the basketball on the reverse, it could be 10 And I almost feel that the I think if you something where they are reaching for. 11 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 12 CHAIR URAM: That's a good idea. And, so, I mean I think I'm 13 going to lean now more towards 19 because it does, it 14 does do what I think the stakeholders would like to 15 see it do. 16 comments on my, on the basketball thought there once 17 we look at the reverse designs, then we can make some 18 comments from there. 19 idea, though, when we do into the marketing side of 20 this. And then at the end if you have your I will give you a marketing 21 MR. WEINMAN: 22 MR. HOGE: Robert, is that you? Hey. Sorry. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 68 1 CHAIR URAM: Okay, Robert, I'll, I'll -- I'm 2 going to save my thoughts for the end on the marketing 3 side, but if you have some comments you'd like to make 4 regarding the designs? 5 MR. MORAN: 6 CHAIR URAM: 7 MR. MORAN: 8 break? 9 Okay. Hey, Tom. Yes. Is this a good time for me to I've got to get radiated. CHAIR URAM: 10 MR. HARRIGAL: 11 CHAIR URAM: 12 much. This is Mike. All right. Well -- We've got his ballet already. We have it. Thank you very Catch up with you in a little while. 13 MR. WEINMAN: 14 CHAIR URAM: Robert, can you hear us? Well, what I was going to say as 15 it relates to marketing, if you could get -- now this 16 is a stretch, but you know how all of these slab 17 companies are doing, what they're doing with 18 autographs and so forth, and you mentioned about the 19 collateral materials that you're going to have that 20 relates to this. 21 players do 1,000 signatures and randomly place 22 different signatures within the basketball coins What if you guys had 50 basketball www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 69 1 themselves. 2 Just a thought. MR. HARRIGAL: In partnership with 3 (inaudible) company and we are speaking with them 4 about how best to market the, this opportunity. 5 CHAIR URAM: If you had autographs in there 6 that were personalized, like the slabbing companies do 7 and you're doing it in advance, I think you'll have 8 collectors really going after just seeing which one 9 they would end up with. MR. SENECAL: 10 11 Just a thought. We also advised (crosstalk) issue. 12 CHAIR URAM: 13 MR. SENECAL: Pardon me? That has to be a secondary 14 offer, I mean market because it can't be packaged that 15 way. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 That's what we've been advised. MR. DOLEVA: From the Mint. We would then have to purchase those -CHAIR URAM: Well, they can do what they want on that, can't they? MR. JANSEN: (Crosstalk) that discussion probably doesn't belong (crosstalk). CHAIR URAM: You guys, you guys work that out www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 70 1 if it can ever be done, but the guys can help if it 2 can be done, if it can be worked. 3 there any other discussion? 4 MR. SCARINCI: But anyhow, is Your, your comment about 5 removing the basketball from 19, I dare enter the 6 caseum called designed by committee, but I'll say the 7 following. 8 when we were dealing with designs for the life, 9 liberty, and pursuit of happiness. I think there was a discussion a bit ago Or perhaps it was 10 before that. 11 young person reaching out to hold a dove and the 12 question was is it a dove there, is the reach there. 13 And we toyed with does the dove need to be 14 there and then the comment was made then it won't be 15 clear what they're reaching for. 16 ball is of the essence for that because the game is 17 not about -- honestly, the game is not about the 18 score. 19 pursuit of scoring. 20 you lost half of the story. 21 question that. 22 Designs where there was a design with a And I, I think the The game is about the technique and the And without the ball being there, So I just, I would And my next comment would be if, if we are to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 71 1 go with what is a politically correct design here in 2 No. 19, I think, one, we should be adding a young 3 child to this one because most of the basketball 4 players in this country didn't start in college. 5 started as young child. 6 interest in this country as soccer's proven to us, has 7 to start when the kids are there. 10 correctness, I think we need a child added as a fourth player. 11 CHAIR URAM: 12 MR. SCARINCI: 13 CHAIR URAM: 14 Back to designed by committee. It's a total mistake. Yeah. Okay. If everyone would please turn in your score sheets, we'll take a -MR. SCARINCI: 15 16 And I think much of the So if we're going to do truly political 8 9 They I asked a question about the market. 17 CHAIR URAM: 18 MR. SCARINCI: Sure. I wanted to hear based on now 19 you've heard everything that we've all had to say and 20 I'd like to hear that the Mint's marketing and from 21 you 'cause I'm going to put you on the spot. 22 quite frankly, I'm going to vote for the one you think www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 And Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 72 1 you can sell out, or that you, the one that -- if you 2 both agree. 3 think you can sell out, that's the one I'm voting for. 4 So do you both agree on which of these designs you 5 think you can sell out? 6 If you both agree on a design that you MR. DOLEVA: We certainly haven't talked 7 about this before, so I think it's a good question. 8 From standpoint of running the Hall of Fame for 20 9 years and seeing the growth of the women's games 10 specifically, and how important it is and how it's 11 becoming the forefront of basketball and issues, I do 12 feel strongly that, that we should have representation 13 of, of all that play. 14 I'm not sure about a child. I think this can 15 be aspirational. 16 they're in college or become a pro player, become a 17 pro player or something like that. 18 Children can, can look to play when I, I look at it from the standpoint of, of, 19 you know, our, our vision is to introduce this at 20 enshrinement and I'm, I'm thinking when we unveil to a 21 vast audience of 2,500 people at enshrinement, made up 22 of men and women, coaches across the whole www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 73 1 international space of basketball, my gut feeling is 2 that if, if we unveil one that does not have a woman 3 represented on either side of this, of this coin, 4 we've, we've swung and missed. 5 So from the saleability standpoint, I think 6 we take some percentage of that market opportunity 7 away. 8 goes beyond Special Olympics, goes to USA basketball, 9 the Olympic team and Paralympics, and I think that I think that wheelchair basketball which, which 10 group would be very pleasantly surprised that they are 11 included in this. 12 they're not thought of and it's a, it's, we've had MBA 13 players sit in wheelchairs and try to, they're to play 14 basketball. 15 beyond that of have all of us lucky enough to be 16 mobile. 17 They often feel that they're, that Can't do it. So the skill level is So I'm leaning towards the more inclusive. 18 And understanding what James Naismith was all about 19 when he designed this game. 20 message as well. 21 It is the most sellable? 22 salability for No. 2, but I can see us starting with a So it's kind of that So that, that's where I come from. I can certainly see www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 74 1 headwind if we had No. 2. 2 MR. HOLBEN: I don't have a vote. Let me be 3 very clear. 4 vote (crosstalk) that there are other opinions 5 obviously that would go into your marketing decision 6 as well. 7 selection of this, of this design. 8 of Fine Arts will have an opinion on this tomorrow as 9 well. 10 I'll be very clear that I don’t have a The secretary will obviously make a MR. HOLBEN: And the Commission What I'm comfortable saying 11 without clearing through legal first (crosstalk) is 12 the reality of sales has nothing to do with my opinion 13 of the design or its elements. 14 selling products, both financial and physical and 15 tangible and intangible products over 20 years, is if 16 you can represent the voice of the customer adequately 17 and you have the support of the customer properly 18 aligned, the sells will happened. 19 My experience in And anyone of these designs whether it's 20 inclusive or not will sell depending on the support 21 and the collaboration and just our sheer will to be 22 successful, which I think is appropriate in a sports www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 75 1 theme. We've all if you've played sports have had 2 that last second pep talk, the Bobby Knight 3 experience, right? 4 5 MR. JANSEN: I think he coaches in Texas MR. HOLBEN: He's a West Point guy. Tech. 6 7 see? 8 whatever John and Robin and John pick up, the US men's 9 market team is going to be behind it and we'll make it 10 So, a little bias. Yeah, So my point to that is successful and we'll sell a heck of a lot of product. I will say as someone who I can't walk and 11 12 dribble a basketball, so I can't speak to the elements 13 of the technique being displayed, but what I can say 14 if somebody's a member of USA disabled section of 15 sports, the inclusiveness I think is something that's 16 rarely achieved. 17 As someone who has a daughter in sports 18 supporting women in sports and other minorities 19 through sports speaks to what Naismith set out to do 20 originally as described by April in the original 21 reading. 22 marketing opportunity if we choose to leverage it And I think that gives us a broader www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 76 1 properly. 2 That I like. As far as the design elements, there's some, 3 there's some spectacular design. 4 very unique and different and non-typical that I think 5 if we're chasing an award offers some opportunity. 6 think the other ones that are traditional also capture 7 the essence of playing a competitive sport or 8 overcoming a disability or being inclusive of, quite 9 frankly, the entire US or the global reach. No. 9 and No. 1 are You can play basketball in the desert. 10 11 can play basketball in Alaska. 12 any economic backing that you have. 13 of choice, that is, is largely biased to an income 14 base. 15 are expensive and there's economic disparity that 16 profits people from joining. 17 I You You can play it with Unlike my sport I, I like hockey and figure skating and those Baseball, soccer, and basketball have the 18 appeal because they hit all audiences. 19 offering as we spoke to the dynamics of the 20 legislation, but the reality is these designs with 21 John's support, we can tell any number of stories and 22 they all give us the ability to tell a story from a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Our product Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 77 1 different perspective to each audience and still be 2 true to the independent design. 3 I hope that adequately answers your question. MR. SCARINCI: 4 For me that's huge. No, you did a good job 5 fielding that difficult question and, and thank you. 6 And I think -- 7 CHAIR URAM: 8 MR. SCARINCI: 9 Thank you, Matthew. (Crosstalk) because we were coming back to my turn and just to sum up my view 10 'cause I want to be crystal clear, you know, and I, 11 you know, I'm going to go with you on 19. 12 want to be crystal clear. 13 want to go for the most -- I want to go for the best 14 shot that you believe is, you're going to be able to 15 sell out. But I just You know, I, 'cause I'm, I You know, but it's going to rely on the Mint 16 17 to really do something special here because absent 18 something special, probably my guess, 'cause I like to 19 win awards, and my guess for the award winner would be 20 2 or 9. 21 22 All right. So 2 or 9 are the award winners. But, but I'm leaving it now in the Mint's hands for 19. And, and, and the more important thing www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 78 1 I, I believe is, you know, you've worked really hard 2 on this and selling out's important. 3 than the award in this case. 4 CHAIR URAM: 5 DR. KOTLOWSKI: More important Thank you, Don. Dr. Kotlowski? Really quick point here. I'm 6 sorry the marketing people left, but I'm sure the word 7 will get to them. 8 Philippines. 9 Fulbright. Market this aggressively in the I taught in the Philippines on a I do Philippine history. 10 national sport of the Philippines. 11 about basketball. It is the They are crazy Absolutely crazy about it. And so it just goes again to the global 12 13 reach. 14 countries we're thinking about. 15 speaking, you know, it is a poor country. 16 easy sport to pick up among either things. It's often overlooked I think in terms of what 17 18 CHAIR URAM: And again, relatively Thank you, Dean. This is an That's a good point. MS. STAFFORD: 19 Just for the record, we do 20 have marketing representation from the mint still in 21 the room. 22 of that team. So that will indeed get back to all of, all And as well, we've been talking with www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 79 1 John Doleva and his team about the potential markets 2 and outreach and ways to connect throughout the world 3 and which countries might be among those. 4 sharing that kind of information -- 5 MR. DOLEVA: He's been Southeast Asia is a, is a key 6 target for us. 7 on registered teams, not just in their backyard. 8 more people that play on registered teams in China 9 than there were citizens in the United States. 10 China, there's more people that play But So the marketplace -- 11 MR. LANNIN: Can you say that again? 12 MR. DOLEVA: There are more people that play 13 on registered teams, signed up for teams. 14 playing in your backyard or shooting with child or 15 grandchild, than there are citizens in the US. 16 marketplace is huge and awesome. 17 take a look at the marketing materials and how we 18 would market to a foreign audience in terms of what's 19 the collateral. It's not So the And, you know, we'll 20 MR. JANSEN: Would this carry a tariff? 21 MR. DOLEVA: Sorry? 22 MR. JANSEN: Would this coin sold into China www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 80 1 carry a tariff? 2 MS. STAFFORD: We, yeah, we, we'd be looking 3 into that. 4 marketing teams together before positing on that. I'd want to get our sales operations and 5 MR. WEINMAN: 6 CHAIR URAM: Pam, were you going to say 7 something? 8 turn into our counsel, Mr. Greg Weinman, the, your 9 scoring sheets and we'll take a five minute break. CHAIR URAM: Everyone, please Let's make it, let's make it at Okay. Let's just say 11:30, 11:30. 14 (SESSION BREAK.) 15 16 All right. least ten minutes. 12 13 Okay. MR. WEINMAN: 10 11 No? That's what I'm trying to say. CHAIR URAM: I'd like to call on our counsel now, Greg Weinman, for the results of the selections. 17 MR. WEINMAN: Okay. The, the 18 recommendations, the voting is in. 19 reminder, especially to our guests, the voting is a 20 tool that's used to gauge the interest of the, of the 21 CCAC. 22 And CCAC, although CCAC has generally had a rule that You know, as a It's not in and of itself a recommendation. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 81 1 to gain the committee's recommendation outside of a 2 separate motion, it should be at least 50% plus 1 of 3 interests. 4 I'll go through in order though, if you're ready. 5 And there are two designs that leaped out. Obverse No. 1 received 8 votes and this is 6 out of a maximum of 33. 7 votes, which would actually meet the threshold. 8 Obverse No. 3 received 4. 9 Obverse No. 5 received one. 10 received one. 11 two votes. 12 Obverse No. 2 received 18 Obverse No. 4 received six. Six received one. Eight received one vote. Seven Nine received Obverse 10 received eight votes. Obverse 11 received two votes. Obverse 12 13 received one vote. 14 Obverse 14 received two votes. 15 three votes. 16 18 received three votes. 17 votes, making it the highest vote getter. 18 received three votes and Obverse 21 received 4 votes. 19 Obverse 13 received five votes. Obverse 15 received Obverse 16 received two votes. Obverse Obverse 19 received 26 Obverse 20 Once again, the two designs that met your 20 unofficial threshold would be the top vote getter, 21 vote getter, Obverse 19 and then Obverse 2. 22 CHAIR URAM: Thank you, Greg. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Are there any Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 82 1 motions from the committee? 2 will record accordingly. Okay. Seeing none, we 3 MR. JANSEN: Mr. Chair? 4 CHAIR URAM: Yes, Erik. 5 MR. JANSEN: I assume we will revisit the 6 text inclusions and coverages and so forth once we 7 understand the opposite design as well? CHAIR URAM: 8 9 I think that's what we'll do and then we'll leave that up to Ron as well to get some 10 insight on that. 11 way to handle that. 12 on the -- I'll ask April to, our Chief Mint Office of 13 Design Management to present the portfolio for the 14 basketball Hall of Fame Commemorative Coin program 15 reverse. 16 But I think that would be the best Okay. MS. STAFFORD: We'll have discussion now Thank you. I should note that 17 all of these designs were developed by Artistic 18 Infusion Program Artists for our United States Mint 19 sculptor, engravers. 20 developed through a competition. There are 23 reverse design sets being shown 21 22 This was, these were not today. Each depict three designs showing the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 83 1 variations required across the denominations. 2 required inscriptions for the reverse include United 3 States of America and E pluribus unum. 4 submitted designs with additional inscriptions where 5 you will see, which you would see. 6 Other Some artists Our representatives from the Basketball Hall 7 of Fame identified four preferences. 8 them to you now. 9 Reverse 12(a), and Reverse 17. We will show They are Reverse 5, Reverse 9, I'd like to invite 10 John Doleva to make any comments regarding the reverse 11 portfolio and to clarify whether any of these four 12 rose to the top in terms of your first preference. 13 John? MR. DOLEVA: 14 It was actually we, we polled a 15 number of people back at the Hall of Fame and it was, 16 it, there was no clear favorite here. 17 these designs are beautiful, representative designs, 18 and would work. 19 the, if the, the obverse side was and what would work 20 with that. 21 22 We think all of Of course we were waiting to see what And I guess that's part of your role here. But we believe each one of these designs probably a little lesser on No. 5, at least from my www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 84 1 perspective, because of the scale and the scope of the 2 basket versus the ball, but I think the other three 3 work nicely. 4 about the global game and I'm often stopped and people 5 say, you know, I was in the far reaches of Indonesia 6 and I'm driving down this dirt road and then all of 7 the sudden I see a rim. 8 see a rim and I see three kids playing basketball. 9 No. 9 for instance, you know, we talked Maybe not a backboard, but I So the iconic representation of the rim and 10 the backboard are of interest to us because the 11 legislation does call for it to be a predominantly 12 basketball design. 13 on the Hall of Fame, our team's perspective that 14 broader team's perspective? Don, Robin, am I missing anything 15 MR. SENECAL: 16 MS. STAFFORD: No. Okay. Thank you. So we will 17 start by sharing Reverse Design 1. 18 depict a three-quarter profile view of a basketball 19 and we are only showing the designs for the $5 coin; 20 is that correct? 21 I'll highlight the $5s and then move through. 22 Okay. These designs So we'll go through them. So Okay. Reverse 2, the designs portray a basketball www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 85 1 with the inscriptions placed upon it in a three- 2 dimensional manner. 3 range to mimic the three-dimensional effect of an 4 actual basketball. 5 The pebbling on the design is a Designs for Reverse 33 show a straight-on 6 view of a basketball. 7 hand holding a basketball aloft to symbolize the 8 importance of basketball in the history of athletics. 9 Designs for Reverse 4 present a Designs for Reverse 5 depict a basketball in 10 front of a hoop. 11 identified as preferences by the Naismith Memorial 12 Basketball Hall of Fame. 13 should note, that this design may have to be adjusted 14 because the ball may read as if he's heading for a 15 missed shot. This is one of the top four designs There is a comment that we Is that correct? 16 MR. SENECAL: 17 MS. STAFFORD: Yes. Okay. Designs for Reverse 6 18 centrally feature a basketball with the additional 19 inscription of one of Mr. James Naismith's purposes 20 for inventing the sport, teamwork. 21 22 Designs for 7 and 7(a) show two hands posed to shoot a basketball. The hands on the ball itself www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 86 1 represent that. The Basketball Hall of Fame honors 2 people involved in the sport, as well as the sport 3 itself. Designs for Reverse 8 and 8(a) portray a 4 5 close-up of the intense action of basketball. 6 inscription E pluribus unum, Latin for out of many 7 one, is placed at the center of the composition to 8 extend this idea beyond its original meaning, 9 suggesting how the sport of basketball has brought 10 together millions of diverse people through a 11 universal athletic experience. The 12 Designs for Reverse 9 centrally feature a 13 backboard and hoop on a background of a basketball. 14 Again, this is one of the top four designs identified 15 by representatives as a preference. 16 Designs for Reverse 10 depict a basketball 17 coming towards the viewer by way of a swish through 18 the net. 19 hence, the discrepancy in proportions between it and 20 the rim. 21 22 The ball has already passed through the net; Designs for 11 and 11(a) reverse designs showcase a basketball that has just gone through the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 87 1 hoop and is ricocheting in the net before falling, 2 before falling by capturing the resulting movement and 3 action of the ball's energy. 4 amplifies these two characteristics of the sport. 5 Designs for Reverse 12 show a view from 6 directly under the basket with the ball in motion 7 capturing one of the more celebrated moments in the 8 game, the moments just after a slam dunk. 9 designs for Reverse 12(a) portrays a view with the The stretched net While 10 basketball closer to the viewer and fewer connection 11 points between the net and rim, again, this is one of 12 the top four preferences identified by the Naismith 13 Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame. 14 Designs for Reverse 13 and 13(a) depict a 15 basketball just after it passes through the hoop for 16 the game winning shot. 17 level looking up at the basket conveys basketball's 18 energy, intensity, and the shear joy of the game. 19 Design set 13(a) features the additional inscription, 20 Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame, across two 21 panels of the ball. 22 within one panel in Design Set 13. This point of view from ground The same inscription is contained www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 88 1 Designs for Reverse 14 and 15 portray the 2 viewpoint of someone under the hoop wondering if the 3 shot will score a basket. 4 additional inscription of one of seven Naismith 5 values, teamwork, infused in the centerpiece of the 6 ball underscoring the similarity of the inscription, E 7 pluribus unum, which translates to out of many, one. Designs for Reverse 16 capture a last second 8 9 Design set 15 features the shot that could score the winning points and feature 10 the additional inscription, teamwork, in the center of 11 the ball. 12 Designs for Reverse 17 depict a basketball 13 about to pass through the net. 14 four preference from the Naismith Memorial Basketball 15 Hall of Fame. 16 design. 17 basketball itself and the angle of the ball reads as 18 most likely to be making a shot. Again, this is a top They commented that it is a clean They very much like the text not being on the 19 We noted coinability comments. 20 in the basketball, the lines are not as dynamic as 21 other designs and they would like it to be more of a 22 3D feel which could be, of course, addressed in www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 The channels Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 89 1 2 sculpt. Designs for Reverse 18 portray two players 3 against that background of a basketball. 4 concludes the reverse portfolio. 5 CHAIR URAM: That Thank you, April, very much. 6 Are there any technical questions before we move on 7 that you have for Ron? 8 9 MR. JANSEN: I have a question. Inasmuch as the proof versions of these coins usually outsell the 10 uncirculated versions, and inasmuch as, and perhaps 11 this, this, this is merely me projecting, I know what 12 a basketball feels like and in some many of these 13 drawings because the ball was the dominant feature, my 14 concern is the texture on the ball is a critical 15 feature to anybody that knows anything about 16 basketball. 17 blast that texture apart and turn into a giant blob. 18 And the proof version is going to totally Is there any alternative in the proof 19 version, Ron, to retaining more of the intrinsic 20 texture when we go to a proof version? 21 22 MR. HARRIGAL: I think it's something we're going to definitely have to explore. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I think you can Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 90 1 put the dimpled effect on it, on both designs. 2 Clearly on, on proof we do have with our laser the 3 capability of dialing the frost down so it's not as 4 robust. 5 maybe two or three different levels of, of contrast 6 with our frosting. And what we would do would be to look at So we could do a, a light frosting on 7 8 elements that need to show the subtle texture. 9 think, I think we can dial it in properly. MR. JANSEN: 10 So I A ball that, that's variances on 11 the street is pretty doggone smooth and it doesn't 12 have much, much real shading in the light. 13 ball with really healthy leather is going to have the 14 reflection that you see typically on 17 there. 15 it be possible on the, on the proof version to 16 actually do a continuous gradient of variable shading? 17 I mean we, we get drawings that have shading But a new Would 18 on them and translating shading to sculpting is, of 19 course, the nightmare we all deal with. 20 case could it be done without it looking really 21 cheesy? 22 MR. HARRIGAL: But in this Our experience thus far is www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 91 1 that from the beginning coins off the dye to the last 2 coins, you get too much variability to do a gradient 3 like that. 4 dye light with that and I don’t think with the volumes 5 we have (crosstalk). 6 7 Yeah. MR. JANSEN: So not really an option you're CHAIR URAM: Boy, we're getting a lot of saying? 8 9 You would definitely have to curtail your noise in the background. MR. WEINMAN: 10 Whoever's on the phone, could 11 you mute your phone again, please? 12 phone. Please mute your 13 CHAIR URAM: Anything else? 14 MR. JANSEN: No, that was my big concern 15 because we, we've, we've inherited this, this design 16 that says give me a picture of a ball and we'll end up 17 frosting the whole thing and it's just, it's just a, 18 it's just a train wreck waiting to happen. 19 CHAIR URAM: Okay. With that considerations, 20 we'll begin our consideration for the reverse designs. 21 Let's begin with Mary Lannin. 22 MS. LANNIN: Because of my expertise in www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 92 1 basketball. 2 CHAIR URAM: Exactly. 3 MS. LANNIN: Ron -- 4 CHAIR URAM: It'll be a slam-dunk. 5 MS. LANNIN: Yeah, exactly. 6 question. 7 accomplish that at least on my... 8 MR. HARRIGAL: 9 The highlights on No. 1, how would you MS. LANNIN: 11 MR. HARRIGAL: Okay. It's not going to really show on a coin that way. DR. KOTLOWSKI: 13 14 I think on that you're getting more of a visual on the design itself. 10 12 I have a It'd be like the baseball. Where you had the baseball. 15 MR. HARRIGAL: I think, you know, you may 16 want to do a heavier frost on the, on the, the lines 17 and a very light frost on the texture. 18 you get a little bit of that pearlescence look to it. 19 MS. LANNIN: 20 MR. HARRIGAL: Okay. And that way Okay. And I think that's, and I 21 think that's about the best we can do with that kind 22 of design. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 93 1 MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thank you. All right. 2 actually happen to like No. 1 because looking at what 3 we've picked with the three people reaching, this is 4 the ball spinning in the same direction that they're 5 reaching. 6 prefer the design to be totally the basketball without 7 the hoop. I I think this is our chance to really shine 8 9 So that to me sort of completes it. and make something look very, very cool. It's big. 10 So like let's go with it and not add any other 11 extraneous detail that, because we've got, we've got 12 all the stuff going on on the other side. So the simpler the better for me. 13 I like, I 14 like No. 1. 15 texture Ron and company can do on 2 or 3. 16 with me, but I just, I just think that this is the 17 direction they were all reaching. 18 ball was spinning. 19 you. I would be equally happy with whatever This is the way the So those are my comments. 20 CHAIR URAM: 21 DR. KOTLOWSKI: 22 17 is fine Thank you, Mary. Okay. Thank Dr. Dean? Actually Mary and I did not discuss this before, but I completely agree www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 94 1 with her. 2 is something very, very elegant. 3 No. 2 were breathtakingly beautiful. 4 And I thought there's something just, you know, 5 amazing elegant and as you said, cool, where the 6 circular nature of the coin and the circular nature of 7 the basketball are one and the same. 8 don’t think the hoops or the hands get you anything 9 beyond that. 10 I think that there's -- I think that there I thought No. 1 and I really did. And I really And what this reminds me of, and again, this 11 is my relative newness and freshness to the group, is 12 a coin that we looked at where the coin was a tire and 13 it was the same thing. 14 different category. 15 a lot of us really, really liked that coin. 16 We all thought that was a And going back a few meetings and So I like, I like 1. I like 2. I like 3 a 17 little bit less. 18 here, I really, you know, if you have to include 19 something, I like No. 9. 20 willing to consider the very last one, which was 18. 21 But I think, I, I, I believe I, I, I think and I hope, 22 you know, that No. 19, the, the obverse finished first And then we just kind of move on And I would have been www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 95 1 is going to handle, you know, the players and the 2 diversity. 3 And Mary, I do think that this is what I was 4 thinking of. 5 for the ball. 6 the actual ball is (inaudible). 7 CHAIR URAM: Thank you, Dean. 8 MR. JANSEN: When you said 19 there, did you 9 10 The, the obverse where they're reaching It's almost like you flip it over and Erik? really mean 18? DR. KOTLOWSKI: No, I, I, I, I was talking 11 about (crosstalk). 12 know, under certain circumstance if we pick a 13 different obverse, that would have been acceptable. 14 But I did say that No. 18, you MR. JANSEN: Right, right. In general I was 15 extremely disappointed by this set of drawings and 16 it's hardly the fault of the artists because the box 17 we're put in on this by the lawyers wanting to be the 18 artist on this legislation is so constraining as to 19 really just give us such an inability to deliver a 20 quality product. 21 22 Having said that, my hands, hands together clapping to the artists that managed it to be stuck www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 96 1 with a ball and do something creative with it. 2 going to start at the back on No. 18 and go forward. 3 I'm I wish we had been able to consider this 4 design before we considered the, the politically 5 correct opt-out that we chose for the other side 6 because we could have achieved the political 7 correctness in that dimension of the marketing and 8 sales goal for the Naismith folks by going with this 9 design here and then putting some energy and some 10 salability on the other side. 11 grapes at this point. 12 But that's kind of sour I think Design No. 18 is practically taken 13 out of consideration based on a recommendation on the 14 former unless we want to revisit that recommendation. 15 17 was actually of the entire set here the 16 one that I thought about then, then it inspired my 17 question to Ron saying how do we deal with the texture 18 because this drawing is not about a ball. 19 drawing is about what a ball feels like when you're, 20 when you're holding on to it. 21 is the essence of this drawing and so I'm going to 22 eliminate it because there was, it's a disaster in This The, the, the texture www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 97 1 proof and it's a sculpting challenge that I think we 2 would fail on. 3 Walking backwards in this, I just found no 4 inspiration in, in the designs. 5 because I know this is a preference, I want to 6 highlight something. 7 proof, this is going to be a blob that looks like it 8 has one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, 9 nine, ten, eleven point star around it and it's not Proof is the big seller and 10 going to make any sense. 11 the proof version. 12 When we get to No. 12 So it loses its impact in Walking further backwards, I just find no 13 inspiration. 14 really -- it was a big wakeup moment for me when we 15 heard the representative of the Naismith group say as 16 I travel internationally, what I see is a rim and a 17 backboard and whether the kids or the adults are there 18 playing, I still see the game. 19 powerful reality and I'm, so I'm going to turn a 20 little bit from the creative value to the marketing 21 value. 22 When we get to No. 9, I was really, And that is such a And although we're, we're, we're required to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 98 1 feature a ball here, this is really the backboard, 2 which this is what you see around the world. 3 was such a powerful point in the story you completely 4 changed my view of this drawing to the point that I 5 will advocate No. 9 because I think it carries just 6 that heartfelt put a board up, put a rim up, we got a 7 ballgame. And that applies everywhere. Boy, No. 8 is just a handful of a train 8 9 And that wreck. I don’t know what to make of that. And No. 7 10 is the only design that actually has hands on a ball 11 that, that reflect reality. 12 No. 6, that's how a coach holds the ball when 13 he's talking to you about how to make a play better. 14 It has nothing to do with the game. 15 No. 4, that's how you hold a ball if you're 16 trying to do a drawing of it. 17 with the game whatsoever. It has nothing to do 18 No. 5, I was intrigued by the, the, the, 19 design by committee edit of lowering the rim so it 20 doesn’t look like this is a missed shot. 21 the ball actually is going to float down in. 22 action in designs. Looks like I like I actually might advocate for this www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 99 1 if the rim was lowered to about one-third of the way 2 up. If you could keep the, the relative dimensionality 3 of the ball and the rim right and still do that edit, 4 we'd certainly have a design by committee we could go 5 with. 6 7 3, 2, and 1, lovely pictures of balls. Creative? So that's how I'm going to vote on this. 8 9 Not, not so much. I think we were so constrained by the legislation as to 10 take the very people that created this program, 11 Congress, killed it. 12 CHAIR URAM: Thank you, Erik. 13 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Jeanne? Thank you, Mr. 14 Chairman. 15 been said. 16 but I'm not sure, I'm not sure about it. 17 fact that if we chose No. 1, it is the reverse of what 18 we chose for the obverse and I think that in that it 19 would add dynamics. 20 Thank you. I have to agree with what has I really like No. 1 and its simplicity, I like the And I look at No. 5, even if we redesigned 21 that, I, I don’t find that spectacular. 22 looking at the net that we had and sort of like www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I enjoyed Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 100 1 throwing the ball into a bowl of spaghetti. I'm not 2 sure if that's what we want to really have on our 3 coins. It's like plays. No. 9, although I agree with Erik, I think 4 5 that that was quite a nice tribute to seeing 6 basketballs all over the world. 7 coin and as design, and as a design element, I don’t 8 think that that's a very positive design. 9 I, I don't think as a No. 12, which is one of the preferences, I 10 think it's not going to coin up beautifully. 11 going to be, you know, the convex part of the coin and 12 then we're going to have the, the drop back of the, 13 the text. 14 design element. 15 be thinking of something else. 16 This is Again, I don’t think that that's a great If it were flat, you know, we would And the next one which is No. 17, again, 17 17 is a preference. 18 even though this is basketball, and I know what we're 19 trying to accomplish, we're, you know, the net, the 20 rim of the net just kind of cuts through that ball and 21 I appreciate Erik's desire to have the stippled effect 22 of the skin. As a design I really do not like, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 101 1 I'm going to go back to No. 1. I agree with 2 Mary that No. 1 was the obverse that we have chosen 3 and the fact that we are in a box by Congress. 4 can't make a beautiful story of this amazing game. 5 I'm so sorry about that. 6 1. that that's my choice. 9 10 11 12 My, my leaning is toward No. And 2, the basketball committee, I'm sorry 7 8 We CHAIR URAM: Thank you. Okay, Jeanne, thank you. Donald? MR. SCARINCI: Jeanne, I'm looking for the baseball coin -- 13 MR. JANSEN: 14 MR. SCARINCI: Is your mic on? Oh, is it on? 15 I'm -- to me this is a no-brainer. 16 concave coin, right? 17 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 18 MR. SCARINCI: I'm sorry. No, I mean it's a This is the convect -- This is the convect side. So 19 why isn't 12 -- you're saying 12 is not, is not going 20 to work and to me, and to me on the convect side of 21 it, 12 is, is, is the right -- there's no other, 22 there's no other choice. It's the right, it's the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 102 1 right -- it's exactly the right -- 2 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMON: Right, but then we've 3 the, we've got the text around it. 4 the text round it, I'd be, I'd be for that. 5 for that. MR. SCARINCI: 7 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: So it's the other side of it. No. We're talking about this side. 9 MR. SCARINCI: So you, so you, you're doing 10 this side of it. 11 is coming out of the net, the side of it. So the basket -- so the, so the ball 12 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 13 MR. SCARINCI: 14 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 15 MR. SCARINCI: 16 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 17 Yes. This is what you want. Yes, but I don't want - MR. SCARINCI: 19 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: This is good. But I don’t like the the text around, the text around -- 21 22 Correct. This is correct. 18 20 I'd be We don’t -- that's, that's -- 6 8 If we didn't have MR. SCARINCI: Your objection is the text on this side? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 103 1 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 2 I can't see this. 3 having this little side (crosstalk). 4 Sorry. No, not on that side. MR. SCARINCI: I'm sorry, sorry. We're I think this is the right -- I 5 think that is exactly the, this is exactly what this 6 coin needs. 7 This, this reverse. CHAIR URAM: I Is that the baseball? MR. SCARINCI: 13 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 14 MR. SCARINCI: It's the baseball. That's a baseball? I'm, I'm sorry. This is the, this is the Apollo. 16 17 I agree. Which one is that? 12 15 I agree. agree with that, but I'm not (crosstalk). 10 11 Or obverse, whatever it is. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 8 9 This is exactly what makes the coin work. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: This is how you deal with this packaging. 18 CHAIR URAM: Ron doesn't get that far. When 19 he gets his from the minutes, it stays in the brown 20 box. 21 22 MR. SCARINCI: It goes to (crosstalk). it out of the (crosstalk) and throw the box away. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I rip Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 104 1 2 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: side. This is the side. 3 MR. SCARINCI: 4 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 5 MR. SCARINCI: 6 This is the side. about. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 8 MR. SCARINCI: 10 the side. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: understand that. 12 design wise the text around -- 14 15 16 Right. So the ball is coming out of 11 13 Right. This is the side we're talking 7 9 So this is not the I understand that. I just don’t like, I just don’t like CHAIR URAM: We're going to discuss the text, though (crosstalk). MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: If, if all we had is the ball and the net, I'm, I'm for it. 17 MR. SCARINCI: 18 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: That's -- 19 MR. SCARINCI: Okay. So we agree. 20 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yeah, we do. 21 MR. SCARINCI: 22 I Oh, okay. No, when you say it, it makes me nervous. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 105 1 2 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: simplicity with No. 1. MR. SCARINCI: 3 4 Well, I'm going for When, when Erik gratuitously attacks lawyers, that's, that's Erik. 5 MR. JANSEN: I don’t take it personally. 6 CHAIR URAM: Let's keep moving 'cause -- 7 MR. SCARINCI: 8 is a no-brainer. 9 10 11 Okay. So, no, I, I think this I think this -- I think it's cool. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: It is, no, it is a no- brainer -MR. SCARINCI: And, and this is what they're 12 -- and the, and this is one of their, this is one of 13 the ones that they like, right? 14 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 15 MR. SCARINCI: 16 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: But 1 is simpler. 17 MR. SCARINCI: I -- 18 CHAIR URAM: 19 MR. SCARINCI: 20 CHAIR URAM: Perfect. 21 MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 22 Right (crosstalk). Okay. Okay. Okay, Don. No-brainer. 12(a). Dennis? Just I want to know about something that Erik mentioned. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 106 1 would note that we have not yet made a motion, made a 2 recommendation for the obverse. 3 concerned, this is still the conversation stage and 4 Reverse 18 should be under consideration. 5 (crosstalk) having said that, assuming that we will go 6 with Obverse 19, that, if we've got that (inaudible) 7 accent the athletic part (inaudible), I don’t see 8 (inaudible) and (inaudible) on the reverse. So as far as I'm Until we So my choices are, are for those that show a 9 10 simple point of view of the basketball. 11 that our liaisons' preferences, I, I like -- I 12 actually like No. 17. 13 you get, you do get a sense of action, hoop in the 14 net. 15 No. 3. 16 It's simple. Of the ones It's clean. And And I (inaudible) about that ball, that No. 2 or So my preference is for No. 17 if we carry it 17 with Obverse 19. 18 idea that we might, that we not not made a 19 recommendation yet. 20 was the single player in a very dynamic, energetic 21 pose, I would recommend Obverse 2 and pair it with 22 Reverse 18 and then we get, we get that sense of And then again following up on this If we go with Obverse 2, which www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 107 1 action and energy, but we also get it combined with 2 some of the more inclusive element. 3 a male and a female player on the coin. CHAIR URAM: 4 You know, we have Dennis, by the, by the point of 5 clarification, Greg, with the -- I'm going to have 6 Greg interject at this point. 7 MR. WEINMAN: Just, although the, you always 8 have the option of placing a motion on the floor to 9 make a recommendation. By default you're, the top 10 vote getter would be your recommendation because we 11 simply report the scores. 12 CHAIR URAM: 13 MR. WEINMAN: In this case -- And that's what we did. You have a clear, you have a 14 clear favorite from it. 15 by motion make a recommendation of No. 2 be the 16 recommendation of the CCAC. 17 happened. 18 default made a recommendation unless you act 19 otherwise. 20 That doesn't mean you can't That just hasn't So just to clarify you're, you have by CHAIR URAM: I would actually pile in behind 21 Dennis here and I'll take the blame for taking Reverse 22 18 off the table here. Honestly I think Reverse 18 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 108 1 entertained with Obverse 2, if, if the committee 2 believes in trying to serve up the best design for 3 saleability, as well as important messaging to the 4 customer, boy, we get inclusion and energy. 5 can't think of a design pairing that would work 6 better. 7 And I So Dennis, thank you for bringing it back in. MS. STAFFORD: So, so because we now have two 8 committee members that raised this, I, I do happen to 9 believe that our representatives from the Hall of Fame 10 would like to comment on this, about the idea of 11 balancing the inclusivity with the energy. 12 MR. HARRIGAL: Yes. I made the mistake of 13 asking if we could consider No. 2 for the reverse and 14 the answer was no from a production standpoint and 15 from a legal standpoint. 16 on a back and forth, I think that would be a slam dunk 17 salability, getting to your point, sir. 18 So if we had No. 015 and 02 I personally like the story -- there's, 19 there's a lot, a lot of story behind No. 19. But I do 20 see the saleability element of having No. 2 as the 21 obverse and No. 18 as the reverse. 22 less representation there. There's a little I can't necessary -- maybe www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 109 1 this is a good thing -- tell race. 2 we can tell. Certainly gender Typically, and maybe I'm, I'll be shouted 3 4 down for this, but men playing women at a tip off, I 5 don’t see that a lot, but this is, this is -- 6 MR. JENSEN: 7 MR. HARRIGAL: Ever. So that's an issue, but this 8 is a representative coin of basketball. 9 little bit of a concern. That has a But my heart still tilts 10 towards 26, but I think from the standpoint I want to 11 point out to you too as well, we're, we're kind of a 12 team here, Don. 13 the, the reverse and change to No. 2? What's your thoughts on this being MS. VIDITO: 14 It did get a couple of votes. 15 think the feedback that we got was kind a little bit 16 too much of a vintage look. So -- 17 MR. DOLEVA: Vintage, the uniforms? 18 MS. VIDITO: Yeah, the uniforms aren't 19 accurate. I So we're looking at this. Also -- 20 MR. JANSEN: That can, that can be addressed. 21 MS. VIDITO: Right. 22 MR. JANSEN: That's a minor feature. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 And, Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 110 1 and to your point, pictures on metal rarely makes a 2 great coin. 3 and, and in this case diversity. 4 seen a coed game like that either. 5 a lot of sense. 6 7 10 11 Yeah, I've never That doesn't make MR. DOLEVA: Yeah, thank you for backing me MR. JANSEN: But symbology is more important up. 8 9 It's symbols that evoke feelings and, than the literalism, as long as the literalism isn't toxic. MR. WEINMAN: Once again, could somebody mute 12 your phone, whoever is on the phone? 13 hearing static. We're still Thank you. 14 CHAIR URAM: Dennis, anything else? 15 MR. TUCKER: No, that's all. 16 CHAIR URAM: Okay. 17 MR. GILL: 18 19 20 21 22 Thank you. Thank you. Sam? Well, I'm going to not continue that conversation. CHAIR URAM: I figure we can come back to refresh it. MR. GILL: Yes. I'd like, I like No. 1. I thought it was clean and interesting and just captures www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 111 1 everything. I liked No. 5 and if it had some 2 adjustments that I think either Erik or somebody had 3 mentioned it, that would be fine. 4 from the hands holding the ball. 5 lastly I liked No. 17. 6 preferences for any of them. 7 would be very good. I liked No. 7 just And then, and then And I don’t have strong I think any of them 8 CHAIR URAM: Okay. Thank you. Robin? 9 MS. SALMON: I also like No. 1 for the 10 reasons everyone has already given. 11 9, No. 7, 7(a) actually, No. 13(a), and No. 17. 12 my strongest preference would be for No. 1 13 CHAIR URAM: Okay. I also like No. Thank you. But Robert, are 14 you on the phone? 15 Robert there? 16 depending which way the Mint goes with some different 17 ideas regarding this, and if we stick with the chosen 18 design that we had on the obverse, I like 17 the best 19 because of the fact that, you know, that's what you 20 want to see happen. I know Mark Moran is not. Okay. Is My thoughts on it are that 21 You want to see, you know, if you're playing 22 basketball, you want it to go into the, into the hoop, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 112 1 in the rim and make the score, right? 2 mind the -- I think that's simple. 3 can make the proof the way it needs to be textured. 4 So, and I don’t I think the Mint What I'm worried about No. 1 -- and it's not 5 that I don’t like No. 1 and No.2 -- what I don’t like 6 is the fact that it is closer to the Canadian design 7 that came out about three years ago. 8 similar in nature and it's extremely similar to 9 baseball. It's very It's extremely, extremely the same. So I 10 really don’t want to put -- I'd rather basketball 11 stand on its own and I'd rather see it being probably 12 17. 13 14 I also like that Don had mentioned, I believe it was No. 6, Don? Is that the -- 15 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 16 CHAIR URAM: 12? 12. Yeah. I think that that 17 has some potential as well in relation to exactly what 18 you're saying based on the nature of the curve, that 19 that would really stand out. 20 it to the Mint to decide how you want to have the 21 wording and how you want to have with the stakeholders 22 the, the proper recognitions and so forth. And then we could leave www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 113 1 Before we go into voting, I'd like April to 2 make a couple more comments from the Mint side, 3 please. 4 MS. STAFFORD: Yes. I'd be remiss if I did 5 not share that the United States Mint is considering 6 the, the use of colorization on this commemorative 7 coin program. 8 of course, if it were done, it would be the first 9 time. I stress the word considering because, So the application of it, the execution of it 10 really would, would depend on the decision for a final 11 go or no-go. 12 driving that. 13 And the designs would be a large part in So we would not be colorizing -- if this were 14 to be done, we would not be colorizing certainly all 15 of the coins in the commemorative coin program. 16 would be a subset of each of the offerings for silver 17 and clad. 18 It So that would be something that we would look 19 into based on the designs that ultimately are 20 recommended and selected by the Secretary, as well as 21 an intense research and development effort that the 22 Mint would have to engage in to ensure that the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 114 1 quality of the coins would, would absolutely be of the 2 highest, highest regard. 3 CHAIR URAM: Thank you, April. One of the 4 things that Don and I had the chance to be with Fred 5 from the CFA, Lindstrom, from there, and they are in 6 favor of subtle textured color. 7 way in that curve process in recognizing some of the 8 things that are done. 9 They've come a long We certainly don't want to have the bright, 10 vibrant cars (ph) or different things like that. 11 for instance on No. 17, if we, if the Mint does go 12 that direction and you had the rim and just the net, 13 it would be very subtle. 14 in principle, that any subtle exposure to that type of 15 texturing would be favorable from their eyes. 16 that's a strong buy-in too. 17 But And the CFA has agreed that, And So, and he said this in his presentation too, 18 the artist. 19 So when you vote, consider that is a possibility. 20 once again, I, if we chose No. 1, I, there's not much 21 room to do anything in regards to that. 22 concern, my bigger concern is that it's just too much So the artists are very aware of this. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 And But my bigger Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 115 1 like the baseball; though, I do like it. 2 we'll see how it comes out. 3 take it from there. 4 5 sheets to counsel. MR. WEINMAN: CHAIR URAM: 9 MR. WEINMAN: Sure. Let's take a, a five minute recess. 11 12 You want to take a quick five minute recess? 8 10 And then the Mint can So everyone please vote and turn in your 6 7 But vote and (RECESS.) CHAIR URAM: Okay. I'd like to have our 13 general counsel, Greg Weinmann, report the findings on 14 the considerations. 15 MR. WEINMAN: 16 MS. FRANK: 17 MR. WEINMAN: 19 MS. FRANK: 20 MR. WEINMAN: 22 I think they're having a conversation that's relevant to what (crosstalk). 18 21 Can we come back to order? Do we -Just give them a moment. Okay. The results of the tally are as follows. CHAIR URAM: No, maximum's different because www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 116 1 -- 2 3 MR. WEINMAN: No, actually Michael Moran did submit his vote before he went off the call. 4 CHAIR URAM: 5 MR. WEINMAN: Yeah, and Robert, yes. 6 CHAIR URAM: Oh, Robert -- 7 MR. WEINMAN: So we're still -- 8 CHAIR URAM: 9 MR. WEINMAN: Okay. Okay. But Robert -- So we're still 33. It is still a 33, which means 10 the default would be 17. 11 reverse obtained that but one came very close, just so 12 you know. 13 received 20 votes, which is the highest vote getter. 14 Reverse 2 received 6. 15 4 received one. 16 received one. 17 With that in mind, just one So the votes are as follows: Reverse 1 Reverse 3 received 4. Reverse 5 received two. Reverse 7 received three. 18 five. 19 received one vote. 20 10 received one. 21 11(a) received one. 22 12(a) received six votes. Reverse Reverse 6 7(a) received 8 received, received one vote. Reverse 8(a) Reverse 9 received nine. Reverse 11 received one. Reverse Reverse Reverse 12 received seven votes. 13 received one vote. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 117 1 13(a) received two votes. 2 received one vote. 3 16 votes. 4 18 received five votes. 5 6 7 14 received one vote. 16 received one vote. 15 17 received So just shy of your default position. And So with all of that information, now you can move forward with motions or otherwise. CHAIR URAM: Thank you, Greg. At this time 8 are there many motions -- keep in mind that if you 9 would like, you can submit two designs. You know, if 10 you want to make a motion to move, move forward or if 11 anyone wants to do that, you can -- 12 MR. WEINMAN: 13 CHAIR URAM: Two pairings. Two pairings. 14 can do otherwise as well. 15 floor up for discussion. You can do, you So with that I'll open the 16 MR. JANSEN: Mr. Chairman? 17 CHAIR URAM: Yes. 18 MR. JANSEN: With all due respect to the way 19 the votes went, I think holistically we have to look 20 at the combination of public input. 21 it gives us and I respect that. 22 look at the issues that we've surfaced here today. There's a variety I think we have to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 118 1 think we have -- of energy, of inclusion of, of design 2 requirements. 3 case the, the preferences of the group involved. And I think we have to include in this And I want to revisit a point that Dennis 4 5 made by feeling out everyone's feeling if we were to 6 actually consider going with Reverse 18 and the second 7 the best and strong vote getter, Obverse 2, to give -- 8 and I want to make sure that the constituents here 9 weigh in on this. To give both the key point of 10 diversity and inclusion, as well as the energy on the 11 coin, plus complying with the ball being featured on 12 the reverse per the legislation. 13 CHAIR URAM: Okay. Now keep in mind that it 14 was No. 2 and No. 19 that had the highest votes for 15 the obverse and it was No. 1 and it was 18, I believe. 16 MR. JANSEN: I understand that, but I -- 17 CHAIR URAM: I'm just saying for the group, 18 19 20 21 22 not you. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Can you turn your, your microphone on? MR. JANSEN: Yeah, I guess you -- I'm, I'm just trying to do the best art here by considering all www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 119 1 of the options and not some options in a vacuum. 2 MR. SCARINCI: 3 CHAIR URAM: 4 vote, there were two standouts. 5 standout No. 2, which is kind of everybody claimed the 6 high energy thing, which I think will relate to kids 7 and all kinds of people around the world that want to 8 feel the yeah of basketball. 9 getter was No., No. 19. Could you repeat -So, so recalling our obverse There was the And the other big vote Okay. And if I'm not mistaken, the appeal on No. 19 10 11 was the ability to include all the constituencies that 12 would make up the players, men, women, the, the, the, 13 the disadvantaged. 14 lacking. 15 And between those two, I think we, we saw the 16 Committee's challenge as well as preference. 17 And I would argue youth are But that was the impotence of that design. Now when we actually go to merge that with 18 the reverse considerations, and Dennis raised this, 19 does 18, in fact, on the reverse give the opportunity 20 -- and granted we might want to address the, the 21 uniforms and potentially even the, the ages, or if you 22 even want to change ethnicity on the players there, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 120 1 but you take that for the, for the, for the inclusion 2 concept here to, to serve that piece of the marketing 3 ultimatum, which I think the Naismith people have, and 4 then pair it with the action on the other side. 5 MR. SCARINCI: 6 MR. TUCKER: 7 MR. SCARINCI: So Dennis, Dennis, Dennis? Yes, I'm here. So are you -- so what I'm 8 hearing if I, I, if I may paraphrase, Mr. Chairman. 9 What I'm hearing is you, you and Erik are suggesting 10 as a possible alternative a motion as an alternative 11 recommendation from the CCAC that we support, that we 12 support reverse, Reverse 2 (crosstalk). 13 MR. JANSEN: 14 MR. SCARINCI: 18. Reverse 18. Reverse 18 with 15 some, with some variation of the art on Reverse 13, 16 the man/woman. Some, some modification to it. 17 MR. JANSEN: 18 MR. SCARINCI: Reverse 18. Reverse 18 and Obverse 2. And 19 that we support that as an alternate recommendation to 20 consider. 21 CHAIR URAM: 22 MR. SCARINCI: It's a motion to (crosstalk). Does that, does that correctly www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 121 1 state what you, what you think as well, Dennis? 2 MR. TUCKER: 3 MR. SCARINCI: 4 MR. TUCKER: I think that -- yes. Okay. Yes. And I, I agree with what 5 Erik said, that we have, we have three different 6 levels or facets that we're looking at. 7 at energy in action, inclusion, and legislation, 8 right? 9 the legislation. We're looking For the, for the reverse we're constrained by The reverse simply has to do -- the 10 only thing that we have to do is obey the law that 11 Congress has written, which says we need to show a 12 basketball. 13 and add that to the reverse, and for beyond, then I 14 think that's great. 15 If we can get either energy or inclusion When it comes to inclusion, I think that, I 16 think that Obverse 19 definitely does it better and 17 more artistically than Reverse 18. 18 I'll repeat that. 19 better than Reverse 18. 20 are given in terms of the obverse and reverse 21 portfolios, yes, I think that having Obverse 2 coupled 22 with Reverse 18 would give us a good combination of Okay. I think, I think Obverse 19 does inclusion So, but because of what we www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 122 1 all three of those elements. 2 action, the inclusion, and the legislation is covered. 3 MR. JANSEN: We've got the energy and And so, so why don’t we make -- 4 if, if, if, if we may, Mr. Chairman, why don’t, -- I 5 could, I absolutely can support that and I think it's 6 a great idea to create flexibility (crosstalk). 7 CHAIR URAM: One thing (crosstalk). One 8 thing before -- just so the committee knows, the 9 chosen by vote was Obverse 19 with Reverse 1. That 10 was the, the sentiment of the vote. 11 majority. 12 Obverse 2 with Reverse 18, is what's being suggested. MR. SCARINCI: 14 CHAIR URAM: 15 MR. SCARINCI: CHAIR URAM: 18 MR. SCARINCI: As an alternative. To make an alternative Exactly. To, to do that with some variation of the, on the art. 20 MR. JANSEN: 21 MR. SCARINCI: 22 As an alternative. recommendation. 17 19 The So now we can either take that and/or add 13 16 Okay? Yeah. Of 18. And, and simply kick it back and let them decide -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 123 1 2 CHAIR URAM: -- 3 MR. SCARINCI: 4 CHAIR URAM: 5 MR. SCARINCI: 6 CHAIR URAM: MR. SCARINCI: MR. JANSEN: 12 MR. SCARINCI: 14 -- give them flexibility, and So you're making that as a Yeah, I'll -- I'm going to support -- 11 13 -- Ron's side of the house -- motion? 9 10 And let them decide what -- give them flexibility. 7 8 And they can decide the wording second. I'll make a motion. -- Erik's motion and Dennis is And I'll support it, absolutely. MR. JANSEN: I'd like to know how the folks 15 at Naismith feel about this 'cause you're, you're 16 going to live with this decision. 17 MR. DOLEVA: Right. So from our perspective 18 I think Reverse 18 solves the, the big issues that we 19 think we would face if we did not include women as 20 part of this. 21 in times of segmentation, men's basketball, women's 22 basketball is, is the primary. Wheelchair basketball is important, but So I think with www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 124 1 updating and getting these out of vintage uniform into 2 something more contemporary and maybe a little more 3 definition on, on who these people might be, along 4 with -- and I liked No. 2, myself. 5 very excellent secondary recommendation. 6 MS. LANNIN: I think that is a I'd like to say something. 7 think we need to remember the total number of votes 8 that have already been voted. 9 extraordinary that we really liked No. 19 for the To me it was sort of 10 obverse, for the inclusivity, and for me it was the 11 cleanness and the implied motion of No. 1 for the 12 reverse. 13 substantial. So 20, 20 votes and 26 is pretty 14 MR. SCARINCI: 15 MS. TUCKER: 16 I If I -Can I ask a question? This is Dennis. 17 MR. WEINMAN: 18 MR. TUCKER: 19 minute. 20 designs given? Yes. I think I was off line for a Were the ranking of votes for the reverse 21 MR. WEINMAN: 22 MS. LANNIN: Yes. Yes. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 125 1 MR. TUCKER: Sorry. 2 system was not turned on. 3 don’t know what the No. 1 was. I didn't hear that. And I apologize. The So I, I 4 MS. LANNIN: 20. 5 CHAIR URAM: 20 for No. 1 and No. -- 6 MR. TUCKER: (Crosstalk) please just give me 7 the top three votes. 8 9 10 MR. WEINMAN: votes. The top votes were No. 1 got 20 No. 17 got 16 votes. No. 12 -- yeah, No. 9 got nine votes. 11 MS. TUCKER: 12 MR. SCARINCI: Okay. Thank you. Can, can I just respond to 13 Mary, Mr. Chairman? 14 would be tomorrow's the CFA. 15 tonight. 16 really give more thought to -- 'cause they just heard 17 a lot of stuff and we can be very daunting to anybody 18 who comes and listens to us. 19 lot of stuff. 20 You know, my, my, my feeling So they have, they have They have this afternoon and tonight to And they just heard a So my thinking about supporting this 21 resolution is to give them the maximum flexibility 22 between this afternoon and tomorrow when they have to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 126 1 go to the CFA so that they -- and they may decide 2 later today after they talk to all the people they 3 have to talk to -- 'cause they're going to have to 4 work the phones and do what they have to do, I don’t 5 want to be them today. 6 You know, they have to work the phone and do 7 a lot of work, but they may decide like, look, we like 8 what was, what, you know, you know. 9 In which case they walk into the CFA and they say, you 10 know, of the two things that were done yesterday, this 11 is what we prefer. 12 that's what they're going to ask. And at the CFA, 13 it's going to happen really fast. It's not going to 14 be like -- And they're done. Because you know that's what, 15 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 16 MR. SCARINCI: Yes, five minute. So they got five minutes to 17 make their case. 18 we would consider this as an alterative, we arm them 19 with something that if they choose -- 20 21 22 So by having a resolution that says CHAIR URAM: They're not handcuffed otherwise -MR. SCARINCI: -- if they approve -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 127 1 CHAIR URAM: 2 MR. SCARINCI: 3 -- design. Correct. And that's how the CFA is going to look at them tomorrow. CHAIR URAM: 4 Right. And they're going to 5 look -- and the other thought is that if we do that, 6 there's a possibility that in that design you could 7 possibly working with Ron even turn this into a rim on 8 the outside of this. 9 do. 10 11 So there's options for them to So Erik -MS. STAFFORD: Which design is that, Tom, just for reference? 12 CHAIR URAM: 13 MS. STAFFORD: 14 CHAIR URAM: 15 MS. STAFFORD: 16 CHAIR URAM: 19. 19. On the obverse. Obverse 19. Obverse 19. So I think your 17 motion would be then, Erik, it would be to honor the 18 vote of 19 and 1 and then couple it with the optional 19 suggestion and alternative as 2 and 18, correct? 20 MR. JANSEN: I would, I'd be willing to 21 modify the motion to make, put forth two sets of 22 recommendations on equal weighting here because what, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 128 1 what troubles me here, and quite finally it is 2 actually quite troubling, because if, if our mission 3 is the best art, then we should be considering all of 4 the art when we consider any of the art. 5 And to have had the, the obverse discussion 6 without any discussion relative to reverse, I think 7 is, is putting, is putting the consumers of this 8 product, the customers of the Mint, at, at a 9 disadvantage. And I think we always need to keep the 10 customer in mind and produce the best obverse and 11 reverse together. 12 individually and the opportunity collectively, I would 13 modify the motion to, to put forth two recommendations 14 so the CFA can see that and the constituent 15 organization can have their say as well. And so respecting the votes 16 CHAIR URAM: 17 MR. TUCKER: Okay. Thank you, Erik. Dennis? The, the reverse, the 18 legislation requires that the reverse depict a 19 basketball. 20 is a crazy idea, but I'll put it out there. 21 we use Obverse 2 for the obverse and Obverse 19 for 22 the reverse? Would it be possible for us -- and this There, I said it. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 What if Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 129 1 The legislation is that we modify, but as 2 Erik is saying, you know, if we look at all of these 3 individuals, striping them of their obverse or reverse 4 status, what is the best art? 5 story we want the way we want tell it? 6 know, what's, what's giving us the energy, inclusion, 7 and satisfies the legislation? 8 for the obverse and Obverse 19 for the reverse, modify 9 to -- 10 11 12 CHAIR URAM: What is telling the And again, you Can we use Obverse 2 Dennis, I think I'd like to have April define that because of the legislation. MS. STAFFORD: Yes. And actually in break 13 there were lots of side conversations exploring the 14 latitude that the Mint would have with regard to 15 legislation. 16 April Whitaker, is it, is it fair to say, April, that 17 as long the reverse has a prominent depiction of a 18 basketball, we are within bounds so to speak of 19 meeting our legislative requirement? 20 Are, looking at our assigned counsel, MS. WHITAKER: Right. If one of the obverse 21 designs primarily or centrally features a basketball, 22 it'd be chosen for the reverse it would qualify to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 130 1 depict a basketball. 2 or as modified with primary or centrally feature a 3 basketball, that would be appropriate. 4 So if any designs as they are, MS. STAFFORD: So Dennis is positing 5 utilizing potentially Obverse 19 as a reverse. 6 think this is where Mr. Uram was going saying if there 7 could be a modification to Obverse 19 where perhaps 8 instead of the net a feature were added into the 9 background depicting a -- 10 MR. WEINMAN: 11 MS. STAFFORD: I A basketball. A basketball in a very 12 prominent way, that it would meet the requirements of 13 the legislation and still, of course, be embraced for 14 its inclusivity. 15 something that has been designed for the concavity of 16 the obverse might translate as a reverse with its 17 convex nature. 18 could talk us through what the potential here is for 19 that particular scenario. 20 21 22 But one concern would be how So I'll like to throw it to Ron and he MR. SCARINCI: We could say either or and then just -CHAIR URAM: We can put the designs all out www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 131 1 there and give them all four. 2 MS. STAFFORD: 3 CHAIR URAM: 4 MR. SCARINCI: 5 No. We could say either or -- Right. -- for the obverse and then give them even more -- 6 CHAIR URAM: 7 MR. HARRIGAL: Okay. Let Ron -- Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, 8 I'm, I'm clearly speaking with a little bit of a 9 design hat here as well. So I'm speaking a little bit 10 for the chief engraver, that we talked about these. 11 These obverse designs were, were designed to be 12 concave. 13 look to it. 14 It'd change this into more of a fish eyed kind of 15 look. 16 So it's going to be more of a wide angle This design could be sculpted that way. You're going to have to modify the artwork to 17 make it look more like a fish eye if you put it on the 18 other side. 19 an artistic perspective based on it shown there as 20 it's designed as pretty much a flat design. 21 that really doesn't have -- where if you go back to 22 the Obverse No. 2, that design where his feet are like That may be a little more difficult from www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 That's, Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 132 1 right there in your face, that type of thing, that is 2 really designed appropriately for, for concave look on 3 it. 4 So you have to think of those aspects on it. 5 That design would not translate very well if you put 6 it on the other side as a fish eye. 7 really distort the artwork in a different way. 8 9 10 MR. JANSEN: You would have to Mr. Chairman, so if we go back to the prior image on the screen here, which I think was obverse -- 11 MR. WEINMAN: 12 MR. JANSEN: 18. Okay. No, sorry. 19. So Obverse 19 we would be 13 potentially looking at using this for the convex side 14 and did I hear the thought of replacing the backdrop 15 of the net here with, with the, the, the, linear 16 portions of a ball? 17 18 19 MS. STAFFORD: I believe that would be required in order to meet the -MR. JANSEN: I would argue the reaching for 20 the ball, the, there are two central elements of this. 21 That is the effort and the object. 22 -- and Dennis, congratulations for maybe cracking this I think this, this www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 133 1 nut for us. 2 wonderfully against Obverse 2 as the concave side. 3 And the beautiful thing is, quite honestly, we get two 4 public designs on one coin. 5 wonderful outcome. 6 motion in favor of that one. This as a convect side I think could work And I'd be willing to withdraw my CHAIR URAM: 7 I think that's just a I think the option for 8 alteratives and options for the Mint to go before the 9 committee is still really important. I think we 10 should honor the vote that was taken, you know, for 11 everyone picking the designs. 12 modify or do anything because I think they understand 13 our side. 14 And then not try to When we were talking about customers, today 15 our customer is the stakeholders here. 16 we're focusing on. 17 MR. WEINMAN: That's who And I'll mention one more thing 18 if it's okay, Mr. Chairman, that those of you that've 19 been with CCAC for some time that know this, 20 everything that we've discussed, that you've discussed 21 today is on the public record. 22 words -- and the, the stakeholders are literally in And so if, in other www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 134 1 the room right now hearing everything you say. 2 So whether you do this by formal motion or, 3 or not, the discussion is clearly out there when the, 4 when there's an ultimate recommendation. 5 think you have to worry too much about -- 6 MR. JANSEN: So I don’t With all due respect to that, 7 the memo that carriers our recommendation forward 8 administratively, I'd like to see -- 9 10 11 MR. WEINMAN: MR. JANSEN: MR. WEINMAN: 13 MR. JANSEN: MR. WEINMAN: 16 CHAIR URAM: 18 That would be helpful. -- would be my, would be my desire here. 15 17 -- the two parallel mentions in that would be -- 12 14 The more you put into -- Then the motion's on the floor. Okay. So we have a motion that you made and, Dennis, did you -- excuse me -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I would like to just 19 add to -- I would like to add to this conversation 20 that we as the CCAC have been charged with helping to 21 choose good designs for our coins. 22 we have a vote like we've just had where we have as a And I think when www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 135 1 committee chosen certain designs, then I think we need 2 to honor that before we start to alter some of these 3 designs. Our, our, our charge is not to design the 4 5 coin. It's to be advisors and make the best coin out 6 of what we've been given. 7 Dennis, congratulations, but I also think we are, you 8 know, we need to pay attention to other factors. 9 10 MR. JANSEN: But, but with all due respect, the vote on the obverse was done in a vacuum. 11 12 And I love Dennis's idea. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Indeed it was and that's unfortunate. 13 MR. JANSEN: 14 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 15 MR. JANSEN: It is. But I, I -- And I, my motion is not to 16 overwhelm or dismiss the, the standard default 17 process. 18 parallel. 19 ultimately the mint officers and the treasury 20 officials know our best thoughts. 21 22 It's actually to make a recommendation in So let the constituencies to CFA and CHAIR URAM: With that being said, why don’t -- your motion originally is to put four alternatives www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 136 1 on the table for the Mint to take and move forward 2 with. 3 was 19 and No. 1. 4 garnered the most votes. 5 automatically should be considered because that's the 6 committee's choice. And work with our stakeholders accordingly. 8 19 obverse, No. 1 reverse, that MR. JANSEN: 7 It So by default, that Short of a motion to, to augment or change that. 9 CHAIR URAM: Yeah. And then the option or 10 the alternative for Obverse No. 2 with Reverse 18 is 11 an option for them to consider as well, which is what 12 you -- 13 MR. JANSEN: That's the, that's the motion on 14 the floor. 15 would you be willing to modify that motion, Dennis, as 16 the second? 17 I, I'd like to discuss with my second, CHAIR URAM: One second, Erik. Don’t you 18 think it'd be better to do that and then let the Mint 19 decide any other pairings that might, you know, still 20 giving them the opportunity for pairings? 21 MR. JANSEN: I actually don’t. 22 CHAIR URAM: Okay. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 137 1 MR. JANSEN: I, I think it needs to rise to 2 the level of official communique as opposed to fall 3 into the morass of did you listen to the 4 transcription. 5 CHAIR URAM: 6 a second. 7 has seconded. 8 motion first. 9 10 Okay. Is, is -- okay. We have We have your motion and right now Dennis We should call for the question on this MR. JANSEN: I think there's discussion that isn't completed yet. 11 CHAIR URAM: Go ahead. Finish up. 12 MR. JANSEN: And, and, and that discussion, 13 Dennis, would you consider altering the motion to 14 essentially go to the idea you did, which is we adapt 15 two obverse deigns for the coin? 16 for the convex portion, which I think is normally 17 called the reverse. 18 portion, which is intended as the obverse. 19 that correct, April? And Obverse 2 for the concave 20 MS. STAFFORD: 21 MR. JANSEN: 22 We adopt Obverse 19 Did I get Yes. I want to be crisp here. You would be willing to modify our motion to that, Dennis? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 138 1 MR. TUCKER: I would and, and I think I would 2 word the motion so that we make recommendation -- 3 either make further recommendations for the wording of 4 the legends and inscriptions, or simply note that that 5 would need to be figured out at some point? MR. JANSEN: 6 It, it, if we could put that off 7 for the moment and just stick with the principle art 8 images. CHAIR URAM: 9 10 No. 1 as default. 11 next? 12 So what you're saying is 19 and Then we're going to go to what MR. JANSEN: Well, we, we have let the 13 recommendation stand as the default vote pair and then 14 so that stands. 15 recommendations would be Obverse 2 as the intended 16 concave obverse and what is Obverse 19, a second 17 public design, to be adopted as the convex reverse of 18 the coin. But on equal standing in the 19 MR. TUCKER: Yes. 20 MR. JANSEN: Okay. 21 22 to that. I would amend my motion And you would still second it, Dennis? MR. TUCKER: Yeah. Second it. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 139 1 MR. JANSEN: Thank you. 2 CHAIR URAM: Okay. 3 And it's recorded accordingly. 4 MR. WEINMAN: 5 CHAIR URAM: No discussion -So end of the discussion. Let's 6 take a vote. 7 rearrange the obverses and the reverses as discussed 8 in the motion? All those in favor of that motion say 9 aye. Well, one, two, three, four, five, 10 Opposed? six, six. All those in favor on the motion to The motion's defeated. 11 MR. JANSEN: Thank you. 12 CHAIR URAM: So, but another motion then to 13 move forward with options for the Mint. 14 entertain a motion if anyone wants to do that back to 15 keeping it as Obverse 2 and 18 or do you want to just 16 move forward with the recommended voted designs? I would 17 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 18 MR. TUCKER: Well, do, do you mean obverse? 19 CHAIR URAM: Back to the, versus, versus I move with -- 20 shuffling the designs we would go back to the 21 alterative that Don brought up of having Obverse No. 2 22 and Reverse 18 as another selection, part of the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 140 1 selection process. 2 MR. WEINMAN: 3 CHAIR URAM: Of the selection. In conjunction with the one that 4 was voted with the highest votes of No. 19 for the 5 obverse and No. 1 for the reverse. 6 MR. JANSEN: I'd, I'd support that motion. 7 CHAIR URAM: Erik makes that motion. 8 We need a second. 9 MR. SCARINCI: 10 CHAIR URAM: I'll second it. Don seconds it. And, and thank 11 you, Dennis. 12 the option to include the second pairing along with 13 those that were voted and the majority, all those in 14 favor signify by saying aye. 15 Motions carries. All those in favor of giving the Mint Okay. Opposed? Thank you. Four opposed. That was good. 16 MR. JANSEN: Thank you for indulging me. 17 CHAIR URAM: No, that's fine. 18 MR. JANSEN: I appreciate it. 19 CHAIR URAM: No, that's fine. Is there 20 anything else to come before our committee meeting 21 today? 22 on Mr. Moran's and myself as far as House Bill 3757, I would just like to say that once again based www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 141 1 which is for the 2021 Morgan and Peace Dollar, we're 2 going to be getting a whole lot of information out to 3 you so that you can help support. 4 you that are able to, officially be able to make sure 5 that we get as many signatures as possible for that 6 legislation. 7 we'll keep you posted on that. 8 to come before -- our next meeting is scheduled for 9 September 18, 2019. You heard from Mike earlier today and So any other business Is there a motion to adjourn? 10 MR. JANSEN: So moved. 11 CHAIR URAM: Erik. 12 MR. GILL: 13 CHAIR URAM: 14 aye? And for those of Second? Second. Sam. All those in favor say Thank you. 15 MR. TUCKER: Aye. 16 CHAIR URAM: Thank you, Dennis, we're MR. DOLEVA: Thank you all on behalf of the 17 18 19 adjourned. Hall of Fame. 20 21 (Whereupon, at 1:03 p.m., the meeting concluded.) 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 142 1 2 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, Natalia Thomas, the officer before whom 3 the foregoing proceedings were taken, do hereby 4 certify that any witness in the foregoing proceedings, 5 prior to testifying, were duly sworn; that the 6 proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter reduced 7 to typewriting by a qualified transcriptionist; that 8 said digital audio recording of said proceedings are a 9 true and accurate record to the best of my knowledge, 10 skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, 11 related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the 12 action in which this was taken; and, further, that I 13 am not a relative or employee of any counsel or 14 attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor 15 financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of 16 this action. 17 <%14519,Signature%> 18 Natalia Thomas 19 Notary Public in and for the 20 District of Columbia 21 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting July 17, 2019 Page 143 1 2 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER I, Penny Knight, do hereby certify that this 3 transcript was prepared from the digital audio 4 recording of the foregoing proceeding, that said 5 transcript is a true and accurate record of the 6 proceedings to the best of my knowledge, skills, and 7 ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, 8 nor employed by any of the parties to the action in 9 which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a 10 relative or employee of any counsel or attorney 11 employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or 12 otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. 13 14 15 <%14795,Signature%> 16 Penny Knight 17 18 19 20 21 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376