View original document

The full text on this page is automatically extracted from the file linked above and may contain errors and inconsistencies.

1
United States Mint
Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee
Meeting
Tuesday, February 28, 2012
The Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee met in
Conference Room A, 2nd floor at 801 9th Street,
N.W., Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Gary Marks,
Chair, presiding.

2
CCAC Members Present:
Gary Marks, Chair
Michael Bugeja (via teleconference)
Erik Jansen
Michael Moran
Michael Olson
Michael Ross
Donald Scarinci
Heidi Wastweet
Mint Staff Present:
Richard A. Peterson, Deputy Director
Christy Bidstrup
Don Everhart
Ron Harrigal
Greg Weinman

3
Contents
Welcome and Call to Order

4

Discussion of Letter and Minutes from Preview
Meeting

4

Review and Discuss Candidate Designs for the 2013
America the Beautiful Quarters – Ohio and Maryland
5
Review and Discuss Candidate Designs for the
Montford Point Marines Congressional Gold Medal 46
Lunch

68

Review and Discuss Candidate Designs for the Code
Talkers Congressional Gold Medal
68
Review and Discuss Candidate Designs for the
Professor Muhammad Yunus Congressional Gold
Medal
91
Review and Discussion of 2013 First Spouse
Research Backgrounder

130

Adjournment

134

4
Proceedings
(9:23 a.m.)
Welcome and Call to Order
Chair Marks: Okay. I'm calling this Tuesday,
February 28, 2012 meeting of the Citizens Coinage
Advisory Committee to order.
We have a full agenda today. And in fact, an agenda
that extends us into the late afternoon, so we want
to proceed as expeditiously as possible.
But also, we're going to make sure that we have a
full discussion on everything that is before us. First
item on the agenda is the discussion on the letter
and minutes from our November 29th, 2011
meeting.
Discussion of Letter and Minutes from Preview
Meeting
Those minutes and the letter were provided in the
packet to the members. I understand that there
may be some corrections to the minutes. I would
ask those members with those corrections to bring
those to us now.
Member Jansen: Mr. Chairman, I want to call
attention to Point Number 5, describing the approval
process we had for the White Mountain National
Forest.
The minutes show ten votes for Design Number 2,
and per our process we have to have 50 percent of
the maximum 21 votes in order to be
recommended. So I think there needs to be some
administrative investigation to find out the facts to
correct that mistake.
Chair Marks: The Chair, who prepares those
minutes, believes that he may have been in error.
So what I'll ask the committee to do is to approve
the minutes, contingent on my review of that tally,
and with appropriate correction to be a part of that

5
approval. I think there may be one other suggestion
on the minutes.
Member Moran: Yes, there was one other, on Point
11, the last page, reverse and obverse were flipped
on the one sentence in that narrative. And that will
be a quick one. You'll read through it to get it
corrected.
Chair Marks: Okay. And we will make that
correction. We'll assume that correction with this
approval. So with those items of change in mind,
are there any other items to be considered before
we move to approval of the minutes? And this will
be an approval of the minutes and the letter. If I
could have a motion to that point?
Member Jansen: I'd like to move that the minutes
be approved with the discussion included in that
motion.
Member Bugeja: Second.
Chair Marks: Okay. It's been moved and seconded
that we approve the minutes and the letter to the
Secretary concerning our November 29th, 2011
meeting. Is there any further discussion? Hearing
none, all those in favor please signify by saying aye.
Participants: Aye.
Chair Marks: Opposed? Let it be noted that the
motion carried unanimously. At this point we'll be
moving on to our review and discussion of the
candidate designs for the 2011 America the
Beautiful Quarters Program.
Specifically for the national sites located in Ohio and
Maryland. And I will look to Ron Harrigal for our -and Don Everhart for our review of those designs.
Gentlemen.
Review and Discuss Candidate Designs for the 2013
America the Beautiful Quarters – Ohio and Maryland
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. Thank you, Gary. First I'd like to

6
recognize
the
Park
Superintendent,
Blanca
Stransky, from Perry's Victory and International
Peace Memorial. She actually came in to be at this
meeting and to give her the opportunity to speak
here.
Ms. Alvarez Stransky: Good morning everyone. I'm
Blanca Alvarez Stransky. And as Ron said, I'm the
Superintendent of Perry's Victory and International
Peace Memorial.
I think where I'm going to start today is actually
defining where Perry's Victory and International
Peace Memorial is located.
On your desk is a park brochure. And the front side
is actually a picture of the memorial at sunset with
the water. And we're on an island. We're actually in
the middle of Lake Erie on the island of South Bass
Island. And when you travel to South Bass Island on
one of the ferries, the memorial will actually be the
first thing that you'll see as you approach the island,
okay.
On the back side of this brochure is a brief history
about the War of 1812. The memorial has two
missions. One, it commemorates the Battle of Lake
Erie, which was the naval turning point for the War
of 1812. And it also commemorates the peace
between three nations, Canada, Great Britain and
the United States. So we have a very unique dual
mission. We have the peace and the war. We're
known as having the largest undefended border
between two countries, Canada and the United
States.
When you visit the park, and you can go up to
top of the memorial, which is 352 feet up in the
And you can look into Canada. And what you
see will be nothing but water and then
surrounding islands.

the
air.
will
the

And the reason I point that out is because I used to
work on the border between Mexico and the United
States at Chamizal National Memorial. I can tell you

7
that when I looked out of my office, I did not see
these great vistas. I saw all these fences. And these
people patrolling along the border, okay.
Perry's Victory, because it's an international peace
memorial, is really a symbol of peace between
countries, okay. And we're very, very excited about
this quarter.
Unlike other parks, like Yellowstone, Grand Canyon,
Hot Springs, we only get about 150,000 people a
year. Not a lot of folks, so we're a lesser known
National Park site. And so therefore, the thought
that almost every American, at one point in their
lives, is going to have a symbol of Perry's Victory in
their pocket, is just so exciting.
It offers us an opportunity for education because
we're so unique. And when I started looking at the
designs, it's very difficult to tell our story.
Because we don't have a large mammal that we can
put on the quarter, okay. Our symbol is the
memorial, 352 feet high. It's a tall skinny building,
okay. Looks beautiful in a photograph when it's
captured surrounded by water, sunsets, et cetera.
But trying to put that on a quarter is very difficult.
As someone said to me a little earlier this morning,
it's kind of boring. I would have to agree, it is, you
know, just the picture of the monument, it's a little
boring.
And then, the hero of our story is Commodore
Oliver Hazard Perry. He was 26 years old at the
time of the battle. And he, despite the odds,
abandoned his ship, got on to another ship, raised a
flag that has become famous, the "Do Not Give up
the Ship" flag, and went into battle and won.
And actually, not only did he win, the Battle of Lake
Erie is actually the battle that the most foreign ships
were captured on American soil. That still holds true
today. So the battle's really important.

8
And the question is, which one of these designs kind
of tells the story. I don't honestly -- I can honestly
tell you that I don't think that any of these designs
will tell the complete story.
I think it's up to us, the National Park Service, my
staff as Park Rangers, to help the American public
understand the story. I think that all we can do is
facilitate those discussions that are going to be had
around the coffee table or around the dinner table.
Where is Perry's Victory? Who is this guy? Or what
does that flag mean? And then we will have to
figure out a way to tell the rest of the story.
But thank you very much for inviting me here. And
thank you for, I don't know if you picked the site, or
helped pick the site, but I think it's going to be
wonderful for us. So thank you.
Mr. Harrigal: Thank you, Blanca, that was very
inspiring. Okay. And we're going to get into the
designs now. Okay, the 2013 America the Beautiful
Program candidate designs.
The United States Mint America the Beautiful
Quarter Program is a multi-year initiative authorized
by Public Law 110-456, the America the Beautiful
National Parks Quarter Dollar Coin Act of 2008.
The Act directs the United States Mint to mint and
issue 56 circulating quarter dollars with reverse tail
side design emblematic of the National Park or other
national site in each state, the District of Columbia,
the U.S. Territories, Puerto Rico, Guam, American
Samoa, the U.S. Virgin Islands and Northern
Mariana Islands.
The quarters are issued sequentially each year in
the order in which the featured site was first
established as a National Park or a site. And we do
five coins a year, so that will take us through the
duration of the 11 years of the program plus the
following year.

9
Following an initial review by the U.S. Commission
of Fine Arts and the Citizens Coinage Advisory
Committee, we're presenting additional 2013
designs for the United States Mint America the
Beautiful Coin Program that are emblematic of
Perry's Victory and the International Peace
Memorial. And after that, Fort McHenry National
Monument and Historic Shrine in Maryland.
The obverse design features a familiar restored
1932 portrait of George Washington by John
Flanagan, including subtle details and the beauty of
the original model.
The inscriptions on the obverse are "The United
States of America," "Liberty," "In God We Trust"
and "Quarter Dollar." The reverse inscriptions on all
of the reverse designs are the site and the historic
jurisdiction, the year of minting or issuance, which
is 2013 in this case, and "E Pluribus Unum."
I think we had a great introduction here on Perry's
Victory and International Peace Memorial, so I don't
need to go into that even more. We'll move on to
the designs.
Design Number 1, this design depicts a statue of
Master Commander Oliver Hazard Perry, located in
the Visitor's Center of the Perry's Victory and
International Peace Memorial.
At age 26, and I believe it went on to age 27, Perry
led America's forces in the Naval victory at the
Battle of Lake Erie, receiving a Congressional Gold
Medal and the thanks of Congress.
It was Perry who coined the famous quote "We have
met the enemy and they are ours," after the defeat
of the British squadron. The water is meant to be
the defining line between representing the past and
the modern representation of the site.
Design Number 2, this design is similar to design
Number 1 but does not include the walls of the
Visitor's Center. It also creates a slight link between

10
the past and the modern representation of the site.
Design Number 3, this design depicts a modern day
version of Perry's Victory and International Peace
Memorial, showing the water of Lake Erie in the
foreground.
Design Number 4, this design depicts a modern day
version of the memorial with three battle ships
shown ghosted in the background. Again, in this
design it creates a link between the past and the
modern day representation of the site.
Design Number 5, this design focuses on the artistry
of the 11 ton bronze urn and observation deck at
the top of the memorial.
Design Number 6, using artistic license, the design
features the memorial shown with a replica of the
flag, "Don't give up the ship," which was carried by
Commandant Oliver Hazard Perry throughout the
Battle of Lake Erie. "Don't give up the ship," a
paraphrase of the dying words of Captain James
Lawrence, the ship's namesake and Perry's close
friend.
Design Number 7, this design also represents
artistic license, placing the "Don't give up the ship,"
flag in closer proximity to the memorial and the
waters of Lake Erie.
Design Number 8, this design is a version of 7.
However, it depicts the USS Lawrence, which Perry
abandoned to board a smaller vessel, which is
shown ghosted in the background. So we have here
eight designs for the committee to review. Gary.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Ron. Are there any
technical questions of -- well actually, I'm going to
go to Don Everhart first, and see if he has any
comments he wants to have us consider as far as
design goes.
Mr. Everhart: About the only thing I would say is it's
a very difficult subject. Because of the, as she

11
pointed out,
monument.

with

the

straight

up,

slender,

Putting it in a circle, it's like showing a full figure of
a human in a circle. There's a lot of space left
around it. So we had to improvise and do the best
we could to make the circle design so that it works.
Chair Marks: Okay. Are there any technical
questions from the committee before we get into
our review? I'd like to get those out of the way.
Okay, it's the practice of the Chair to recognize a
member who might have a particular interest in any
of the subject matters that we're considering. I
haven't had anybody volunteer. Is there anybody
who feels strongly they'd like to go first?
Member Wastweet: I'll go.
Chair Marks: Go ahead.
Member Wastweet: It was very helpful to hear the
presentation. And it seems like we have two things
going on with the park here, the peaceful border,
which I really love that concept, and the history.
The quarters program is about the parks. And so I
want to -- I'm really shying away from the
depictions of the historical battle because we're
supposed to be focusing on the park, and what the
park is today, and how that's been preserved. And I
love this concept of this large, unique, peaceful
border.
And so Design Number 3, I disagree that it's boring.
I think it's simple, and I think it's peaceful. I think it
portrays that notion extremely well. All that open
space, there's a big open vista there, there's the
water, we have trees, a tall slender monument,
where the closer views of the monument you don't
get that height.
And it's simple enough to withstand being on the
small format of the quarter. So I'm really in favor of

12
Design Number 3 for that reason.
I could be persuaded to go with Design Number 2,
with the statue. I think that one's okay, too.
Number 1, we have the walls on the side, which I
don't think add any value.
And then designs below this, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8, I
think focus too much on the history and the details
of the monument. And it doesn't speak to me as
much as much as the Design Number 3, which I
think very effectively portrays the peacefulness of
this park.
Chair Marks: Thank you Heidi. For those who are
guests with us today, I just wanted to make sure
that everyone knows that Heidi is our artist. What's
the technical term?
Member Wastweet: Artist with a specialty in -Mr. Weinman: Specially qualified in medallic art and
sculpture.
Chair Marks: Okay. So we put a lot of weight on
what Heidi's input might be on any item. So thank
you, Heidi, for your comments.
And in the same way, Michael Ross, from the
University of Maryland, History Professor in
American History. He is a very valuable member. All
the members are very valuable. But Mike brings a
special expertise in history. So at this point I'll
recognize Mike for his comments.
Member Ross: Heidi, I'm sorry about what I'm
about to say. But I look at this coin as a marvelous
moment to get people to be discussing history.
And I was looking at the coins from which one, if
someone looked at the quarter and saw the image,
would say, oh, what's that all about? And go and try
to find out more about it.
With that in mind, I think the one with the "Don't
give up the ship," flag on the coin would lead to, I

13
know that phrase. And then head to the internet or
to a history class to find out what that means.
And I think it's a famous phrase, most Americans
don't know how it's intimately tied to the historical,
America's historical past.
So with that in mind, I'm afraid that the one that
you recommended, that is indeed peaceful, is so
peaceful that people will never move beyond looking
at the coin and going, oh, that's great, another
monument.
And these will jar discussion. So I think Number 8
or Number 7 might do that. So I'm leaning towards
those. And I like the depictions of Perry in 1 and 2.
But again, statues of men in dramatic poses, I don't
think lead to discussion either. So my criteria, of
course, are different than everyone else's who is
also looking for the artistic value. But I also, I think
it has artistic value, although that's not my area of
expertise.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. I think I'm going
to go ahead and exercise my ability just to take my
turn right now. Having heard what these two folks
have said, I'm actually on this committee qualified
for nothing.
I'm a member of the general public, except that I've
been a coin collector for nearly 40 years, and I at
least have an artistic bizarre nature in my head. So
I'm going to go ahead and take my turn here.
When I look at a coin, and being mindful of the fact
that we're looking at an object here that's going to
be on a one inch pallette. And I've said this before,
and I'll say it again, that it's unfortunate that in
some ways we're given these designs in a format
where they show it to us in like a, I don't know what
the actual measurement is, six or seven inch
drawing, on the poll pages that we get in our
packets.

14
But down in the right hand corner, we always get
the image as it will be in the size on the quarter.
And I always like to look at those images and try to
focus on what the quarter is really going to look
like.
And I think that because of the exuberance of any
given subject at any time, there's a tendency to try
to put too much on a one inch pallette. And so as I
look at the designs we're given today, in my mind
there's clearly some that try to accomplish too
much.
And we're much better off when we go to the
simple, the symbolic, with devices on it that are
enough to tell the story, but also strike that balance
of a beautiful coin that doesn't look like it was trying
to say too much. So with those prefaces, I'm going
to go to Design Number 2.
Mr. Harrigal: Gary, if I may, we also make it into
three inch silver, if you remember. But the majority
that the public will see is, of course, quarter size.
Chair Marks: I'm aware of that, Ron.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay.
Chair Marks: What I'm talking about here is the one
they're going to make tens of millions of -Mr. Harrigal: Yes, exactly.
Chair Marks: -- that Americans are going to handle
in their hands in daily commerce. So back to my
point. On Design Number 2, I tend to favor this one
because it incorporates both of what I understand to
be the iconic images, as Heidi said, that are part of
that park today.
Those are the things that visitors to the park would
see if they were to visit. And I think they do tell the
story.
We
have
the
Commodore
featured
prominently in the foreground with his monument in
the background.

15
And yet, it's done in a simple way where there's lots
of clear space around those objects. And as a
collector I also tend to think about the collector
version, which would be the proof version.
What's that going to look like? And in a proof coin
we have your raised devices, which are the frosted
ones. And then your fields, which would be what
would typically be a mirrored image.
And so in medallic art, in coin art, especially the
collector variety, when we look at the proofs I
always think it's an advantage, as far as lending
beauty to it, if there's a balance in the contrast that
we see between the fields, the raised devices and
the polished surfaces that are in the fields.
And if you look at Number 2, the frosted devices will
be the statue and the monument. You're going to
have a lot of beautiful mirrored image surrounding
those objects. I think it's going to play off very
nicely. There's going to be plenty of contrast. And
it's going to be a beautiful coin, which I think given
the subject matter here I think is difficult to pull off.
But I think Number 2 does it in a very simple
elegant way. I think Number 1, which is a variation
on that theme, it's unnecessary to have the walls
there.
In fact, I know we really went around about this in
the first look at these designs. And I think our
request, if memory serves, was that we free the
Admiral from his surroundings, which we did in
Number 2.
So I don't think that we need the extra clutter, if
you will, in Number 1. Number 3, I agree with Heidi
that it provides a peaceful image. But I think with
the absence of the Commodore, it doesn't tell
enough of the story.
I think just having a monument there that is
unknown to the average American, particularly
outside of Ohio or the area around this park. It's

16
just a difficult piece to interpret.
And I think it goes more towards what Mike was
saying about an opportunity to teach. I think with
the Commodore's image on Number 2, I think it
opens up those opportunities.
The others, I'm afraid, while I understand the "Don't
give up the ship," and how important that is to the
subject matter, I just think if we want a beautiful
coin, and I think that all involved in this process
want that.
They want something that's going to be memorable,
something that's going to be an image that people
might remember, something that might be inspiring
to them. I think if we clutter the palette up too
much, we lose that opportunity.
Number 4, I think is a good example of that. We've
got ships, we've got the monument, we've got
water in the foreground. And it's just kind of a mix
up there. And when it comes out on a one inch
pallette, those ships are going to be the size of ants.
And it's just, it's not going to render well in my
opinion.
Number 5, I think Number 5 loses the teaching
moment because it's -- well it's an image, a piece of
the monument. I think in the minds of Americans
it's going to be a little abstract. And it's going to be
hard to interpret at all what that image is if you
have no idea before you look at it. You might not
even know that it's some sort of a national
monument. I'm not sure that even people who visit
the park would be familiar with that close up view of
the urn.
So with those comments I'll move on to the other
committee members. And before we start down the
line here, I'm just going to go with Donald here in a
moment. But before I do that, Michael Bugeja is on
the phone. And, Michael, if you're ready, I'd like to
have your comments now.

17
Member Bugeja: Yes, I am. You know, and it's good
to follow. In as much as we have several Michaels,
when we say Michael, can you just say if it's Michael
Ross, or it's Michael Olson, and so I can know which
Michael is speaking. I'm the Michael who's on the
phone.
My favorite designs were 2 and 3. And Heidi has
explained, you know, why those designs are
effective. But, you know, from a numismatic
perspective, Design Number 3 troubles me a little
bit, even though I like it because I think the trees
are out of proportion to the monument. I think the
monument itself will not tell the story. We have
around the world many monuments that look similar
to that.
You know, however, Number 2, particularly in proof
form, which is what Michael has just said, you will
get some depth of field with the Perry statue device
seemingly coming out of the coin, with the
monument providing some depth of field.
And the trees there I think are proportionally
correct. Either one of those would be my favorite. I
am not so sure "Don't give up the ship," against a
monument is going to tell us much. I think that it's
a common saying, but I don't think we relate it to a
particular battle. I think that, you know, from a
media perspective it's, you know, in a political year
I could wax philosophic on what that means. And I
won't. And I'll cut it short, Gary, so we can go to the
next. I don't want to repeat. But again, 2 or 3 would
work for me.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. And at this point
I'll recognize Donald Scarinci.
Member Scarinci: I'm going to try to persuade you
to go with Number 7. And before I start, you know,
first of all, none of them are, you know, particularly,
you know, appealing. But this is a very difficult
subject matter among the park series, which is in
general difficult to artistically depict on such a small
platform.

18
And we do focus on the quarter size platform as
opposed to the coasters, you know, that are sold to
collectors. But, you know, and I want to compliment
Don and the artists for not only, and the Mint, by
the way, for not only taking another stab at this,
but for having listened to us.
And the reason I -- one of the reasons I think
Number 7 works is because it really attempts to
compromise with one of the objections that was
raised the last time we discussed this, which was,
you know, there was some strong sentiment on this
committee, not my sentiment, I might add, but
strong sentiment of others on this committee that
you did not want foreign flags on American coins.
And yet, the flags are important and an important
visual component of this park. So what you've got,
and I think what, you know, what the artist
attempted to give you, is a compromise, you know,
that depicts a flag that creates meaning for the coin
and focuses on the main visual component. But
takes an aspect of that visual component, and fits it
within the diameter of the coin, you know, rather
nicely.
And I think the clean surfaces around it, as opposed
to the Number 8, with the two ships, where one of
them, you know, as we affectionately call these
things, would look like a bug. And you would need
your loupe to see the other ship. You couldn't see it
really, or make it out terribly. It might look like a
speck to you on the actual coin.
So Number 7 has a clean look. It creates -- it gives
you the flag element of the park. It gives you the
depth and the dimension that Michael B. was talking
about, you know, by juxtaposing three objects, the
flag against the detail of the monument, against the
water in the background to show that you're on an
island.
And, you know, he creates the vista by the water
and the, you know, similar to what Number 3 does,
you know. But Number 3, quite frankly, is fairly

19
unrecognizable in this form.
If it were bigger in some way, but it couldn't be, you
know, it is what it is. You're trying to put literally
here you're putting a square peg, you know, a
vertical peg in a circular frame. So it just doesn't, I
don't see how you work it.
The two with the statues, I mean, we were over this
last time we talked about this, you know. And I
guess we're, some of the same people who liked it
then still seem to like it, the statue. Except, you
know, again taking artistic license and removing the
statue from where it is and putting it, you know,
somewhere in space, in Number 2.
At least in Number 1, it has a context of where it
might be, as opposed to Number 2, you know. But I
don't like either of this -- I just don't like either of
the statues. And I don't think that really lends to
telling the story. So what Mike R. said about, you
know, telling the story in this case, again, you
know, this is a series about the parks.
It's not a series necessarily about what went on in
the parks. However, some of the parks, like this
one, are parks because of what went on in the
parks. So in this particular case I'm persuaded that
telling the story and talking history is appropriate.
And not only appropriate, but necessary to explain
exactly what this park is.
So, you know, to conclude, you know, while none of
them are great, I don't know that it's possible to
make a great design with this particular subject.
And at least what you have in Number 7 is a clean,
multi-dimensional design that tells a story and that
allows you to go to the internet and figure out what
this is about.
And the slogan on the flag creates the context for
the coin design. And it also compromises those on
this committee who felt last time that a foreign flag
should not be on a United States coin.

20
Chair Marks: Thank you, Donald. Before we move
on to Erik I just want to recognize the fact that the
Deputy Director of the Mint, Richard Peterson, has
joined the meeting. And welcome, Dick. Happy to
have you here.
DEPUTY DIRECTOR PETERSON: Thank you. I didn't
plan to talk on this topic. And I in no way want to
influence any of the discussion that's going on right
now.
But as a point of personal privilege, I went to the
United States Naval Academy. And this was one of
our first Naval heroes. And "Don't give up the ship,"
and "We have met the enemy and they are ours." I
learned that line in the summer of 1977 as a plebe
at the Naval Academy.
And it just goes to show you how what we make
here reinforces American history each and every
day. And enjoy the discussion. I'm enjoying the
discussion, but I wanted to sit in on this one.
"Don't give up the ship," was also another one we
learned. So anyway, great discussion, keep going.
And this was one of our first heroes, other than
John Paul Jones, I think was first. Perry was second.
And great discussion. So, thank you.
Chair Marks: Well, thank you for sharing those
thoughts. That was very interesting. Okay. Erik
Jansen, why don't you fill us in on your thoughts.
Member Jansen: First thing, I want to thank the
Mint and the artists behind the scenes who under
duress, kind of went back and tried to give us some
more here. So it's really appreciated. Thank you
very much.
I don't know where we'll end up as a committee.
But I know we'll feel we made a better decision this
way. I come out really with two kind of concepts in
my decision making.
One is kind of a, I see an opportunity for a classic

21
looking coin here, even though it's only a quarter in
diameter. And that kind of would consider 1, 2, 3,
and 4.
But I take 4 out for reasons described previously.
Sorry, Heidi, I take three out. It's just a little bit too
much white space in my book.
And I go for Number 2. I think it has the white
space. And I know the Mint will probably engrave it
appropriately. To my view that means give a little
more relief to Perry and put the tower in a little less
relief against a flat background.
So that in most inspections or examinations by folks
out there who might collect this, or get one in
circulation, they focus on him first. Because I think
he came first and the tower of course is the
memorial. And there's a second way to go here. And
that is, one of the Michaels said we need to get their
attention with this coin. We need to have a coin that
when they get it they're going to go hey, what's
this. Now if you believe that, you're kind of a 6, 7, 8
kind of voter. I take 8 out because of the ship on
the horizon discussion.
And I'm going to take 7 out. And, Donald, with all
due respect, 7 to me looks like a BP oil platform
that they're encouraging the employees to not give
up the ship, which we know what that led to.
So I end up in 6. However, 6 comes with a few
provisions. One, I think the urn is off axis on the
column itself. So that's kind of a question you ask
the artist.
And second of all, last time I checked, and historian
Michael, maybe you can tell me, doesn't don't have
an apostrophe in it? Otherwise it's don't. And give's
a little hard to see.
Now the artist has done this wonderful creative trick
of kind of giving us the flag with and without the
ripple all at once. And the flag's kind of square at
one end where it shouldn't really be. So I think

22
there's some technical issues in this drawing.
But if you want the, what the heck is that effect, I
think that's the one you pick. So personally I'm
going to vote very strongly for 2, with a strong
backup vote on 6. Thank you.
Chair Marks: Okay. Michael Olson.
Member Olson: I think a lot of the ground has
already been plowed on this, so I won't take up a lot
of time re-plowing. But this memorial is here
because of the actions, leadership of one man.
And to not have that man on the coin, or a
reference to those actions, to me would be a
mistake. Therefore, while Number 3 is a nice
looking design, with a lot of white space, the
inscription on the coin is Perry's Victory.
While there's a monument there to that fact, to not
have him on the coin, or his famous saying, I think
would be selling him short. So real briefly here,
Number 2 will be getting strong support from my
end.
And I agree with comments that were given
previously. I at first did not care for the flag with
the "Don't give up the ship," on there. But I agree
with Donald in this case.
Number 7 does gain my interest and
getting support because I think it
opportunity to get people to do a
research and find out a little bit more
happened here. Maybe generate a
interest in the park. That's it.

will be also
is a good
little more
about what
little more

Chair Marks: Okay. Michael Moran.
Member Jansen: Turn your mic on there.
Member Moran: There we go. All right. I'm going to
go down these very quickly because we've heard all
the arguments. Number 1, the side panels are
cluttered.

23
Number 1 and 2 both, I have a problem when you
take a statue that's basically life size or even bigger,
and reduce it down to the size of a quarter.
I don't care how well you handle it with pencil and
with a computer, even on the quarter size the
engraver's going to have fits putting any kind of life
into that statue. It's going to be very plastic,
wooden. And I just have trouble with it.
I do like Heidi's Number 3, it's simple. That's always
my rule. But it's not going to get my first place
vote. 4 is too busy. I wish we'd quit seeing those
kinds. 5, too close. And we've got a flaw over on the
left hand corner on the pedestal, in terms of
perspective.
My vote is for Number 6 because it's clean and
simple compared to 7 and 8. And it marries the
current, being the statue, with the historic, being
the flag.
And I would hope that when we clean up the flag. I
think various comments are right on on that. And I
would hope maybe we could do the motto incused. I
think that would look well. My primary vote is to
Number 6, followed by Number 3.
Chair Marks: Well thank you, Michael. Do we have
any follow up comments now that we've heard each
of our reviews?
Ms. Alvarez Stransky: I just have to say something.
I just have to make a clarification for historical
purposes. Back in that time period they did not use
apostrophes. So "don't" is correct without an
apostrophe.
Chair Marks: Thank you. Heidi, did you have a
comment?
Member Wastweet: Just a couple of small technical
comments to one of the Mike's comments about the
statue. I think that the sculptors will be able to get
that detail in there.

24
It's more a matter of the size, rather than the, I
mean, you'll be able to see the detail. I guess that's
what I'm trying to say.
And then on Number 7, I'm a little concerned about
the waves in the background. Because the waves
are not exaggerated for the size of our pallette, it
may not come across as water.
And so if we choose that one, we may just advise
the artist to exaggerate those waves. And I think
that all the lettering on the flags would
automatically be incused, I mean, correct, Don?
Mr. Everhart: Well, they're not all shown that way.
The only one that really shows it incused is 6. But it
would be no problem to incuse it, and probably
punch them up very well, so they'd be more -Member Wastweet: That would be your call, right?
Mr. Everhart: Yes.
Chair Marks: Michael Ross.
Member Ross: Just very quickly, I think the missing
apostrophe is fantastic. Because I can envision
discussions at home and in barrooms where people
are like, they left the apostrophe out.
And then they go to research and they're like, well
actually it was missing. And then they know about
the flag. And then they know about the battle. And
then the coin becomes a teaching device.
Member Wastweet: Do you really think they'll
research?
Member Ross: I do. Particularly because there's a
lot of sticklers out there. It will be like, they left the
apostrophe out. And then the process becomes
education.
Member Moran: The coin nuts will think it's a Mint
error.

25
Member Scarinci: It's actually a contemporary
element because in the world of Twitter and quick
emails, we leave the apostrophe out.
Chair Marks: I want to recognize the Deputy
Director. He obviously wants to say something.
DEPUTY DIRECTOR PETERSON: We're going to need
to get our talking points and press releases in order
to explain that one.
Member Jansen: I like the idea of kind of making it
both ways and let the collectors go wild.
Chair Marks: Any other comments before we wrap
this up?
Member Bugeja: Gary, I had just a procedural
question. You usually take preferences via written
slip. And I think Greg Weinman has access to email
in the room.
I was wondering if you wanted, I'll be glad to tell
you which I support. But if you wanted to do this in
some sort of numerical way, I could send a quick
email to you or if you have a phone app for it, or to
Greg.
Chair Marks: Well, Michael, what I've just done is,
I've passed your scoring sheet with your name on it
down to Greg. And if you will email your scores to
him, he will fill your form out for you.
Mr. Weinman: Happy to do so.
Member Bugeja: Okay. That sounds great. So Greg
will send me that and then I'll fill it in, right?
Mr. Weinman: Actually you're going to send, you're
just going to tell me what scores you want and I'll
fill in the form for you.
Member Bugeja:
preferences are.
Mr.

Weinman:

I'll

Send

just
me

tell
an

you
email

what
with

my
your

26
preferences. I will fill them in.
Chair Marks: And, Michael, you might want to -Member Bugeja: Greg, thank you.
Chair Marks: Michael, please do that now.
Member Bugeja: Doing it.
Chair Marks: So in wrapping up, I just want to
thank our visitors from Perry's Victory and
International Peace Memorial for being here today.
And at this point, I'd ask the members to register
the scores that you have for these designs on the
sheet that was passed around.
For the visitors here I'll explain that we have a
formal evaluation after our discussion of each
design, in the form of a scoring sheet where each
member is entitled to assign up to three points on
any or all of the candidate designs that are provided
to us.
Or they are also entitled to register zero, or any
number in between zero and three. So what we do
is, we then collectively put all those scores together.
And that gives us an indication of support, which is
a weighted indication of support at that point.
And then we have, by rule of the committee, a
standing practice that for any design to receive our
endorsement or our recommendation it must
achieve at least 50 percent of the vote that's
possible for any design.
So what we do to determine that possible vote, we
just multiply the number of members participating
in the vote by three. And correct me if I'm wrong,
but I believe we have eight with Michael on the
phone. So a perfect score would be 24.
So with that review for our guests, I'm just going to
just ask the members to fill out your form. And at
this point, while you're doing that, I'm going to ask

27
Ron to now give us the review on the quarter for
Fort McHenry in Maryland.
Mr. Harrigal: Thank you, Gary. We have two visitors
here from the fort. We have Tina Cappetta Orcutt,
Fort McHenry National Monument and Historic Site
Superintendent. And then we have Vince Vaise who
is the Chief of Interpretation. And I'd like to invite
them to say a few words on behalf.
Ranger Vaise: For those of you who have been to
the fort you can simply call me Ranger Vince. And
just to say about, you know, what is the gist of Fort
McHenry? What are we trying to capture today?
And that is nothing less than the two most
important symbols of the United States, the
American flag and the National Anthem.
It was Francis Scott Key who saw the huge
American flag waving over the fort after a 25 hour
bombardment. His seeing that flag directly inspired
him to write the words that became the Star
Spangled Banner.
A little bit of historical context. It was literally two
weeks after this very city in which we sit was in
flames, was destroyed by the British, that the
seemingly invincible British Armada set sail for
Baltimore.
The British showed up, ironically enough, on
September the 11th, 1814. They waited a few days,
and on the 13th of September launched a
tremendous bombardment of the fort.
Coming initially within the range of the fort's
cannons, the fort's cannons drove the British ships
at a good distance. Meaning that although the
British could shell the fort, most of the shells
overshot or undershot the target.
These are the famous rockets red glare, bombs
bursting in air, that Francis Scott Key would write
about. By dawn's early light, September 14th, 1814,

28
Francis Scott Key sees a huge American flag being
hoisted over the fort.
It was a very unique American flag, 15 stars, 15
stripes. One way you can remember it is, just as the
War of 1812 was our second war with the British,
the 15 star, 15 stripe flag was the second version of
American flag. So it was a very unique American
flag.
Ironically, the actual shape of the fort was a very
common shape. Many forts, Fort Adams, Fort Jay,
Fort Mifflin are built in the shape of stars. But it was
actually the stars of the flag that inspired Key to
write the Star Spangled Banner. It's something that
has a resonance, even to us today, that spans that
gulf of 200 years.
And I would say something that, seeing that flag,
hearing the anthem essentially makes our hears run
quicker. It's a special honor though that you all
decided to have this put on a quarter.
Because ironically, a lot of people when they say the
flag and the anthem mean a lot to me, they don't
always associate it with a fixed place. So hopefully,
this will help them associate with that power of
place.
This Congress got that back in the 1930's, 1933
exactly, with enabling legislation of Fort McHenry,
where they say to commemorate the victory in
Baltimore, the successful defense of the British in
their attack on the city, and especially the writing of
the Star Spangled Banner, and the flag that inspired
it.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Vince,
that was very inspiring. Wow, I want to come up
and see your fort.
Ranger Vaise: Come on up.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. Let's get to the designs. Design
Number 1, this design depicts a partial view of the

29
fort with a cannon facing towards the parade
grounds. It also features the Star Spangled Banner
in the background.
Design Number 2, this design depicts two soldiers
standing guard in front of the sally port as the Star
Spangled Banner waves overhead.
Design Number 3, this design shows the park during
the Defender's Day celebration, which is considered
the centerpiece annual event held at Fort McHenry.
The fireworks symbolize the rocket's red glare,
linking the fort to the historic past.
Design Number 4, this design illustrates the
architecture of the fort and depicts a partial view of
the ramparts.
Designs Number 5 through 10, the designs feature
slightly different views of the star-shaped fort. Each
design features the Star Spangled Banner in various
sizes. Number 5, Number 6, Number 7, 8, 9, and
10.
Design Number 11, this design features two
important elements of this site. It depicts the fort in
the background and the cannon in the foreground.
So here we have 11 designs for consideration by the
committee.
Chair Marks: Okay. Thank you, Ron. Are there any
questions of either Ron or Don, of a technical
nature?
Member Olson: I have a question.
Chair Marks: Yes, Mike.
Member Olson: Say, Don -Chair Marks: Mike Olson.
Member Olson: On Number 3, is there any special
treatment that could be given to those fireworks to
make them jump off a proof coin?

30
Mr. Everhart: Yes. What we plan on doing on this is
frosting the textured area that you see, and then
polishing the inside area, which would be closest to
where the explosion takes place.
Member Olson: I think that would make a very
attractive design.
Chair Marks: Any other technical questions? Okay,
with that, it's been suggested, and I agree, that we
go through a process that we do from time to time
when we're presented with several designs of going
through an initial culling where I'll ask for just any
general support from the committee for each of the
designs. And the idea being here that if there's no
support for a particular design then we'll just set
that aside.
And it can expedite our considerations by focusing
on a fewer number that we find some particular
merit in. So, with that, do we have the ability, Ron,
to bring up each image on the screen.
Mr. Harrigal: Yes.
Chair Marks: Okay, that was a silly question. I know
you can. So if you could just bring up Number 1?
Mr. Harrigal: Okay, bear with me as it pages back
through.
Chair Marks: Sure. Okay. So is there any support or
desire to consider Number 1?
Member Olson: Yes.
Member Bugeja: Yes.
Chair Marks: Okay. Let's go on to Number 2?
Member Ross: Yes.
Chair Marks: Number 3?
Member Ross: Yes.
Member Scarinci: Yes.

31
Chair Marks: Number 4?
Member Ross: Yes.
Chair Marks: Number 5?
Member Wastweet: Yes.
Chair Marks: We're not getting very far are we?
Number 6? We're setting 6 aside. Number 7?
Member Ross: Yes.
Chair Marks: Number 8? Anyone for 8?
Member Wastweet: Yes.
Chair Marks: I heard a yes. Number 9? We're
setting 9 aside. Number 10?
Member Ross: Yes.
Chair Marks: Yes. And 11?
Member Bugeja: Yes.
Chair Marks: Okay. We have set aside, usually we
cull down a little bit more than that. But 6 and 9, I'll
just ask the committee since there was no indication
of support for those, that we not use our time with
those discussions on those items.
So with the remaining designs that we have, I've
had two individuals ask if they could present their
remarks early in this process.
So I'm going to recognize Heidi first, and then we'll
move down to Mike Olson. And then I think I'll mix
it up from there. So, Heidi, why don't you go? I
think you should go first. You asked first.
Member Wastweet: All Right. On Design Number 1 I
want to rein in a little bit on expectations. I wish we
all had a quarter in front of us to look at.
I know there's a lot that is going on at the fort. I
know there's a lot of history, and a lot of things we

32
could tell if we were doing a high relief three inch
metal.
The flag with the 15 stars, it's not going to be
apparent on a quarter that there's 15 stars on any
of these flags. The grass, the flowers in the
foreground, this is just a lot going on.
In Design Number 2, I would be much more in favor
of if we didn't have the tiny soldier on the right
hand side. Again, we're trying to put too much into
this circle.
Number 3, I can tell in the drawing this is supposed
to be explosions in the sky, but down on the quarter
I really think that this is going to be frequently
mistaken for flowers.
The way that the sculpt is going to come across,
with those lines raised, no matter what texture you
put on them the shape of those bursts, I think too
many people are going to mistake it for flowers.
And they're going to wonder why are there flowers
above the building with a flag? I don't get it. And we
even have a little sign down in the grass. What is
this, a keep off the grass sign?
We don't need this kind of detail in these designs.
It's not realistic to expect that to show up. We want
clarity. And when we get too much going on, we
lose clarity.
Number 4, I appreciate the attempt to be unique. I
really do. But again, this looks much better in the
drawing than it would on a quarter.
Number 5, this one is my personal favorite. But I
would polish the ground instead of frosting it and
texturing it. This has a lot of design potential.
And my position on this board is to talk about the
aesthetics versus some people that talk about the
history. So I am tailoring my remarks to the
aesthetics.

33
I think Number 5 has a built in design element.
Buildings represent very well on coins. And these
shapes are going to come across very well.
Yes, you're not going to be able to tell that that flag
has 15 stars. But there is a flag there. And you're
going to get the overall design sense of the shape of
this fort, and that it is a star.
It's going to have enough clarity because of the
negative spaces are very effective. Now we have a
lot of variations of this that follow.
Number 6, I think that, oh, we took out 6, excuse
me. Number 7 is designated some frosting behind
the fort. And I think that we're going to lose come
clarity if we frost that. And Don, you can speak to
this. I think Number 8 will give us a little more high
contrast. Am I reading this correctly?
Mr. Everhart: Yes, you are.
Member Wastweet: Thank you. And Number 9 we
took out. Number 10 I think is a too close up
version. We gained some size of the buildings but at
the expense of losing the overall shape of the fort,
which is giving us the highest aesthetic design
quality.
And Number 10, again, this looks great in the
drawing, but down on the quarter what we're going
to see is a really big wheel. And I think it's going to
be mistaken for a wagon wheel.
It's going to have a little more Western feel to it,
rather than the feel of a fort. Also on Number 10 I
think there would be, there's not much lip there
between where the lettering sits and where the
buildings come up.
I think that's going to be challenging to put that
perspective in there, from a technical standpoint.
That's all I have to say about it.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Heidi. We'll go to Michael

34
Olson.
Member Olson: Okay. This quarter really has the
potential to be one of the stars of the series, based
the subject matter that it's depicting, the Star
Spangled Banner, Fort McHenry.
My belief is this is one that's going to get a lot of
attention, not only from collectors, but children,
teachers, and the general public.
There's really two elements that need to be included
in this in a prominent way. One of which certainly is
the flag, the Star Spangled Banner. The other of
which would be the fort.
Many of these have both of those elements. Some
of them don't. Start off with Number 1. That is a
nice looking picture. But I'm just not getting the
feeling of Fort McHenry by looking at that.
The buildings would be too small in the background
and you've got a cannon pointed at you. The flag is
featured prominently, but that one, for this purpose,
my belief is it doesn't really do the job.
Number 2 is interesting. I agree with Heidi that the
second soldier would probably be too small to see.
Cut right to the chase here.
Number 3 is the one that I really feel strongly
about. I would like to give the Mint the opportunity
to show us what they can do with those fireworks.
That's an exciting point. That shows action.
And you've got the fort there. You've got the Star
Spangled Banner. And yes, you do have bombs
bursting in air. I think that one would be a winner,
especially with the children.
You see those fireworks up in the sky. That one is
just an exciting, very active looking coin. And it's a
very rare occasion when you can say that a coin
design jumps off at you. And I think, especially on a
proof treatment, I think that can happen.

35
Number 4, we see some type of fort. And it does
say Fort McHenry on there. But without the flag I
think that design is lacking. The remaining
variations of a flag and a fort from an aerial view, I
think several of them could work.
If I was going to select one of those, because I
really consider them to all be pretty much along the
same lines, I would say Number 7 or Number 8,
because the flag is a prominent feature in those
designs.
The other ones, the flag is too small. And I believe it
deserves better recognition than that on this coin.
So my full support's going to be going to Number 3,
with some minor support going to 7 and 8.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. I think we'll go to
Michael Moran now, if you're ready, Michael?
Member Moran: Sure. I'm going to echo Michael
Olson on this. I won't go through these one by one.
I think Heidi did a good job evaluating all of them.
My primary vote is Number 3. I also like either 7 or
8. My preference I think would 8 in terms of how it
would strike up. But I really, I'm a Number 3 kind of
guy.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. And now Erik
Jansen, if you're ready?
Member Jansen: I'm going to follow Heidi's
recommendation and home right in on 7 and 8. I
think 8 is the better choice amongst all of the
fort/flag combinations, because the flag is as large
as it is anywhere. And the contrast is the highest.
So watch out on the texturing in the backdrop
there, or we'll lose our contrast. But I cannot walk
away without saying to Don, we asked for new
ideas, things, tries.
And they may not all be great, but I don't think we'll
measure what we're capable of unless we are able

36
to take a shot at making 3 work. So I'm going to
vote equally strong for 3 and 8.
Chair Marks: Donald, are you ready?
Member Scarinci: Let the record reflect I just gave
Erik a hug for that statement. Because we're asking
for creative, we're asking for new, we're asking for
different.
We had, you know, what turned out to be a very
interesting design on the Hawaii quarter, you know,
this year, when John Mercanti, as one of his last
group of designs he submitted to us, you know,
showed us that design.
And we
going to
going to
it. But it

all looked at it and said, well how's that
look? What are we going, you know, is that
work? And we were all apprehensive about
was new, it was bold, it was different.

It wasn't a depiction of a photograph on metal, like
we had seen up to that point rather consistently.
Instead, it was an interpretation. And it was
something a little bold, a little outside of the box.
And I hate to use the word, but contemporary.
And I think of all of these designs, and I wanted to
keep, earlier in our discussions, I wanted to keep 1,
2, 3, and 4, in the discussion.
Because I wanted to compliment the artists for what
they've done here with 1, 2, 3, and 4. Because all,
1, 2, 3, and 4 have artistic merit.
And all of them are the types of things that I think
we're all hoping to see, you know. And, you know,
look, I mean, the days of having images like the
image in Number 11, where you juxtapose two
objects, I mean, that's what the state quarters were
all about.
And that's what everybody was complaining about
when they saw state quarters. You know, the shape
of the fort, okay, there's a picture on metal again.

37
It's not, you know, bold or new or different. It's not
interpretive. It's just a photograph on metal.
So I was, of course silent when, I didn't support
keeping any of those on for discussion. But I knew
we would want to be all talking about it, because we
all come from different points of view.
I'm delighted to see 1, 2, 3, and 4. I really hope,
you know, I really, you know, look at this
optimistically as a new direction, and as something
that we're going to see more of.
And I think we've some things like this today. And I
hope we're going to see more things like that, and
less photographs turned into sketches, sent to us
asking us to make those sketches and photographs
into a metallic object.
Anyway, I think Number 3 will be a really nice
compliment to the Hawaii quarter that came out this
year. I think it will be something that people look at
twice, think about, talk about.
And I think, you know, clearly the proof version has,
you know, has some dramatic potential as well. So,
you know, I'm trying to contain my enthusiasm.
My enthusiasm, you know, is not towards the
specific design, but for what I believe those four
images that you presented to us today represent.
And that is a step, you know, a giant step in the
right direction of more creative coin designs.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Don. I'm going to go ahead
and take my turn. And I will relish being a
contrarian here.
Mr. Harrigal: And you were a beginner last night
too.
Chair Marks: Yes, I was. And I want to focus first on
Number 3. And let me first say that I
enthusiastically embrace the idea of trying new
things, trying to move more towards the modern

38
design concepts.
And I was part of the approval, or the
recommendation, that we go with that Hawaii
quarter. Because it was innovative, and I think we
all knew we were taking a chance.
For me personally, having seen the proof version of
that quarter, I personally don't think it works. And
it's too bad it's not here. I had asked for a proof set.
Mr. Harrigal: Gary, I actually do have those here. I
was going to pass them around on break, but if
you'd like to see them now -Chair Marks: I'd like to see it now, please. Now you
may disagree with me when you see this. You may
think this is wonderful.
Mr. Harrigal: It's a proof quarter and the three inch
-Chair Marks: Well, the three inch maybe has some
other merit to it. But the curic end of the three inch,
which my friend, Don, likes to call coasters,
derisively. I'm not sure Don can rely on that as
argument back against me.
But anyway, if you look at this Hawaii quarter, I
don't think this works, guys. So how does that play
now on this Fort McHenry image that we have?
I look at this and, guys, here again this six or seven
inch version, you're all looking at this. This is what
you're looking at. Don't look at it. Cover it up. Cover
it up. Look at this little thing down here. Look at
that little thing, okay.
Now you're looking at that little thing and you're Mr.
Joe or Mary American out there. And you just got
this in your hand. What is that? Well, are we on
another planet that has two suns?
Is this a modernist art thing where someone put
some paint in a balloon and threw it up against a
canvas? Really, what is this guys?

39
Heidi suggested it might look like a flower. If that's
the case, it might be one of those 1970's hippie
flowers. You know, those little logo things that used
to be stickers that people put everywhere.
I just have to very much disagree that this is going
to pull off. And that most Americans who get this in
their change are going to have any idea what that
is. Especially in a one inch version of this.
A quarter that's going to be made, you know,
millions and millions of these things. I just have to
object to the idea that this is going to be a success.
I just don't feel it will be.
And look at that volcano. The lava flow's coming
down the side of the mountain. It looks like the
mountain's actually broke apart. I think this
experiment didn't work.
And I would hate to see us, I mean, because I see
this bomb burst saying as another variation on that.
And here again, guys, I think you're getting swept
up with this seven inch drawing. And I'm sorry,
that's not what we're going to have.
We're going to have a one inch coin with two little
blobs on it that I don't think are going to be
identifiable. So with that, some of these other
designs, like 1 and 2, I appreciate the art in this,
but I'm going to refer back to a mistake that I think
I made in convincing all of you to go with the design
for Glacier National Park.
For those of you who were on the committee at that
point, there are some of you here. If you'll
remember there's a mountain goat. And it's
standing majestically out on a rock outcropping.
And when I saw that on the drawing with the
definition that you get with the blacks, the grays,
and the whites that come out in a drawing, it was
beautiful. And I was very passionate about arguing
that maybe give that a unanimous vote.

40
Some of you will remember that. And you did. I
think it was one of the first unanimous votes we
ever had on this committee. And I have to tell you,
I was really disappointed when I saw it come out,
especially in the proof version.
And even in the circulating version, because there
was so much detail surrounding that mountain goat,
it's really hard to make out the mountain goat. The
mountain goat doesn't pop. It doesn't pop.
And here, some of these, like the cannon on
Number 1, I just don't think as a frosted device
against a frosted field there on the lower half of the
quarter, it's not going to pop.
Same with Number 2. Number 2 in some ways kind
of reminds me of the Chickasaw quarter, where we
got the bridge, we got foliage all around the bridge.
And if you look at that in either the circulating
version or the proof version, there's too much
device around the bridge and it obliterates the
bridge. It's hard to see the bridge because it's on a
one inch pallette.
So we need to simplify. We need to simplify. We
need to look at our contrasts that we're putting on
our coins. So I just don't think that 1 or 2 can work.
Certainly you've heard what I said about Number 3.
As far as 7 and 8, there's been some discussion. I
don't think I'm going to focus on the others at this
point. 7 and 8, I think that we're moving in the right
direction here.
Again, 7 I wouldn't go for because again, I don't
think we're going to have the contrast. We've filled
in the field, correct me if I'm wrong, the two
sculptors in the room. But I'm thinking that the area
around the fort on Number 7 is going to be a frosted
device of some kind.
Mr. Everhart: That's correct.

41
Chair Marks: Okay. That's going to, I don't know, I
just don't think it's going to pop like it could.
Number 8 will. Number 8 I think will be a beautiful
one inch quarter which would show the unique
shape of the fort with the American flag. I think
that's a winner if we go in that direction. So with
that little diatribe, I will move on now to Mike Ross.
Member Ross: I'll be brief. I just think Number 3 is
the best representation of why Fort McHenry is
important and what happened there. And I'll agree
for that reason.
Chair Marks: Okay. Michael Bugeja.
Member Bugeja: Yes. Everybody has hit on some
important points. I can see merit in three of these.
Number 1, I want to talk about a little bit. I think
the grass and some of the textures are going to
conflict with how that coin eventually looks.
But there is some wonderful symmetry in this
design with the cannon actually coming out of the
coin, which is something in orientation that I have
really always been calling for.
The flag in the back giving some depth, especially
against the sky. If some of that grass can be
lightened a tad. And I'm talking not about the
foreground, the larger grass, but the grass on which
the cannon sits, and then the grass in the
background. If that can be lightened somehow I
think you'll get more of a 3D effect on it.
Thirteen has all the right symbols, I mean, I'm
sorry, Number 3, MD03 has all the right symbols, all
the right icons. I worry about the bombs bursting in
air looking like paint ball blasts. I'm not sure how
you fix that. And I'm not sure how it would look on
the finished product.
Other than that, that is a design that I can go with.
Number 5 has good orientation. And for that matter,
so does Number 8. And I could go with that.

42
So my choice is, with minor revisions, would be 1
with some grit and reservations, 3 I worry about
those blasts. They could look like flowers. And then
as for the forts, Number 5 and 8. Thank you.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. Okay. With that
are there any follow up comments? And I think
there are.
Member Scarinci: Well, my only rebuttal, Gary, is
that when you do come to Greenwich Village to visit
me, I will not be taking you to the Whitney Biennial.
Because you will not like it.
I think that, you know, the coin designs that we are
seeing around the world, coming out of Latvia,
Poland, Belarus, countries that are doing, even the
United Kingdom, in their circulating coin designs,
xountries that are doing innovative things, coming
up with bold designs, some of them brilliant.
A lot of the coin of the year winners in different, in
their categories. And this latest round of the coin of
the year winners, you know, we're just not in the
game, you know, up to this point.
And I think unless we try new things and, you
know, see what happens, yes. Are all of them going
to work? No, they're not, you know.
But the ones that do, you know, could very well be
the ones that set a new paradigm and a new
standard, you know, for us. And get us back into
our rightful place as world leaders of art and design.
And I think because of that, I'm very willing to, you
know, take a risk on a state quarter. I'm certainly
very willing to take a risk on a commemorative.
I'm certainly even more than very willing to take
risks on National Medals, you know, in order to give
the artists, you know, the encouragement and the
concept that this is the kind of thing we want to see
them do. So because of all that, and because of all
the things I said earlier, I just had to give a little

43
rebuttal to my friend Gary.
Chair Marks: And I'll give a counter rebuttal to my
friend, Donald. That I'm all for the ideas that are
expressed through the coins coming out of Latvia,
Belarus, and others.
I've studied those fairly extensively. I think I've
seen some moments of some of that coming
through on some of our coins here.
But when you speak of the game, the game that
those mints are engaged in, I don't think that
Number 3 is playing the same game. It's a different
game. And it's a game that we already tried with
Hawaii.
And really, guys, if you're honest and you look at
these examples that went around, the volcano
doesn't work. It just doesn't work.
So I would just plead with you, that let's not go with
Number 3. I think it's certainly a risk. But I think it's
a risk that's more likely to fail than to produce a
winner. Any other comments?
Member Olson: Yes. I've got a rebuttal to your
rebuttal to -Chair Marks: I love this.
Member Olson: But I want record to show that, on
very rare occasion here, Donald and I are in
complete agreement.
Chair Marks: That just shows you something's
wrong here.
Member Olson: But I think the sentiment, not only
of myself but the folks on this end of the table, are
that the Hawaii quarter is a very beautiful design.
And we happen to like it. So for all the reasons I
previously stated, which I won't state again. I'm not
convinced. I'm going to be supporting Number 3.

44
Chair Marks: Anything else?
Member Moran: I know you don't want to hear
anything else, Gary. But I'm going to say one thing.
I think that basically we asked the Mint to go back
and redo the designs on the two state quarters.
I do think that one of these designs, on both the
quarters, we can agree on. And we can go forward
and give them a recommendation on.
If we get to the point where we've got a split
decision, as you tally up the votes, let's give us all a
second crack at this, so that we make sure that we
get a recommendation to the Mint on these two
quarter designs.
Chair Marks: Certainly I think we're going to come
to some sort of recommendation. I would encourage
us to. Because, especially because this is our
second go around.
So I believe we're going to get there today. So any
other comments? I don't want to shut anyone down.
But if you do, quickly please.
Member Scarinci: Unrelated to the debate. I just
wanted to point out, you know, a cool moment that
we all just had by seeing the coaster of the Hawaii
quarter before it's been released to the public.
It's one of those very rare times that we get to see
things first. And whenever we do I think it's very
special. And I certainly feel very honored to see it.
So I just wanted to say that.
Chair Marks: Okay. Thank you. Okay, with that, I'm
going to ask the members to go ahead and mark
your scoring sheets appropriately for the Fort
McHenry quarter.
And Erik Jansen has agreed to do the tally for us, as
we move forward with our other considerations. So
if you would, when your sheet is completed, if you
would please pass that down the table to Erik, he'll

45
do the tally for us.
And at this point, it looks like we're in need of a
break. We may be running a little behind here. So
I'm going to ask that we all be back here at our
places at the table at 11 o'clock, straight up. And
for now we're in recess.
(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the
record at 10:49 a.m., and resumed at 11:04 a.m.)
Chair Marks: Okay. I'm going to ask everyone to
come to their seats please. We've got a lot to do
today. Okay. I'm going to call the meeting back to
order.
And the first item to review here is the results from
our America the Beautiful quarters process. Let's go
to Perry's Victory first. I'll let Ron get those up.
And I'm just going to read the scores down here on
each design, if you want to take notes. On Number
1 for Perry's Victory, it received no points, so a
zero.
Number 2 is our recommended choice with 14.
Again, with a 24 possible, we have to get 12. So 14
is our recommendation. Number 3 received six
points, 4 and 5 both received zero, 6 and 7 both
received eight. And Number 8 received three votes.
On Fort McHenry, design Number 1 received three
votes. Design Number 2 received two. And design
Number 3 is our recommended choice. Wow, that
was difficult to say.
Member Moran: If you'd picked up the dinner check
last night, it might have been different.
Chair Marks: Well, yes. Okay. So clearly that's, with
16 points, it receives our recommendation. And I
reserve, I-told-you-so rights when it comes out.
Number 4 received zero, 5, six points. Number 6
received zero. Number 7 received one. Number 8
was a strong show at 11, 9 received zero. Number

46
10 received one point. And Number 11 was zero.
So with that, during the recess we juggled the
schedule around a little bit to try to make all the
different pieces come together the way they need
to.
And on our agenda we show Professor Yunus'
Congressional Gold Medal next. However, because
of the time we have available, we have a 1:45 p.m.
hard break. The committee has a -Member Ross: 11:45 a.m.
Chair Marks: I'm sorry, what did I say? 11:45 a.m.
hard break for a meeting that the committee has
over lunch. So we needed to fit in the time available
for that.
And what works best for us is to go to the Montford
Point Marines Congressional Gold Medal at this time.
Before I do that I just want to, as a proud father,
and since we're going to talk about Marines here.
My son joined up with the United States Marines
this past week. And in sharing in that pride I want
to recognize my bride who is at the meeting for the
first time in the five years I've been on the
committee. My beautiful wife Laurie is over here,
and she's probably more responsible for the
responsible young man that we produced than I am.
She's the stable one, and I'm the more volatile one.
So thank you, Laurie, for being here today.
So with that, with great respect and honor that
they're here, we're going to move forward with our
Montford Point consideration. And I think at this
point, to get the process going, I'm going to
recognize Ron Harrigal to introduce our subject
matter. Ron.
Review and Discuss Candidate Designs for the
Montford Point Marines Congressional Gold Medal
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. Great. We have a number of

47
guests here that I'd like to give them the
opportunity to speak. And I will ask Colonel Smith
to come up. And then she can introduce the rest.
Thank you.
Colonel Smith: Good morning ladies and gentlemen.
My name is Colonel Stephanie Smith. I'm the special
projects officer for the Montford Point Marine
project.
And part of the project, our entire project, is to
anchor the legacy of the rich history of the Montford
Point Marines into the history and traditions of the
United States Marine Corps.
And part of this, and something we're very excited
about, is the Congressional Gold Medal, which the
President signed into law on 23 November of last
year. And what we have before you is the medal
designs of which, that have been vetted through the
Montford Point Marine Association.
The Montford Point Marine Association is an
organization that was designed to safeguard the
Montford Point Marines as an association to look
after the welfare of the now very elderly gentlemen,
as well as to ensure that the legacy gets preserved
in and of itself.
So with me today is Mr. Joseph Carter, who is an
original Montford Point Marine, who served in the
Marine Corps in the very beginning. Came in in
1943 and rose to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel
before he retired.
And next to him is the President of the Montford
Point Marine Association, which is Dr. James
Averhart. And part of what we're doing here today
is also filming in part, in support of a documentary
that we are going to be putting together on the
Montford Point Marines.
But the Montford Point Marines numbered nearly
20,000. The actual number varies depending on the
history that is being told. They came from all walks

48
of life. Many were highly educated.
We have found Montford Point Marines that are now
architects, doctors, lawyers, dentists, administrators
of schools. And they came from all walks of life to
come into the Marine Corps, to seek vestiges or the
relief of the Jim Crow laws that had segregated our
complete society, but in particular the military, prior
to 1941.
In 1941 the Marine Corps, or the Executive Order,
was signed allowing for blacks to serve. In 1942 the
Marine Corps started accepting Blacks.
And as we said, they have served with distinction,
including on Saipan, Guam, Tinian, Peleliu, and Iwo
Jima. We have, the medal designs we think
encompass the heart of the Montford Point Marines.
And we were hoping, we do have one preferred
design out of the medal designs.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay, great. Thank you. With that
we'll get into the end of the program. Public Law
112-59 authorizes the Secretary of the Treasury to
strike one Congressional Gold Medal, collectively for
the Montford Point Marines, in recognition of their
personal sacrifice and service to their country.
The required inscriptions, choice of whether to place
the inscription of "Act of Congress 2011", on the
obverse or reverse was left up to the artist.
However, we do believe it will be on one side or the
other depending on how it was depicted.
We'll go forward with that. And let's get into the
obverse designs. There are no other required,
rather suggested inscriptions, other than what came
through the design process.
The obverse designs. Design Number 1, this design
features three Montford Point Marines in a proud
salute with the American flag waving in the
background. The inscription reads, "For outstanding
perseverance and courage that inspired social
change in the Marine Corps."

49
Design Number 2, a variation of design Number 1.
The inscription reads, "Act of Congress 2011, 19421949", and "Montford Point Marines."
Design Number 3 was taken from an iconic image of
the Marines in training, jumping over an obstacle.
And that is, the Montford Point Marines is shown.
The inscription, "In 1942-1949" And also the
inscription,
"Through
adversity,
through
perseverance, to the inevitable."
Design Number 4, the upper portion of this design
features four Montford Point Marines in uniform. The
lower portion features three Montford Point Marines
jumping over a log in training. The inscription reads,
"Montford Point Marines."
Design Number 5, this design features three
Montford Point Marines in different styles of
uniform. The lower portion features three Montford
Point Marines leaping over the log in training. The
inscription reads, "Montford Point Marines 1942 and
1949." And this was the preferred design by the
Marines.
Design Number 6, this design features Montford
Point Marines marching in formation. A water tower
can be seen in the background. The inscription
reads, "Montford Point Marines 1942-1949" and "Act
of Congress 2011."
For the Montford Point Marines, this water tower is a
very iconic image. And the tower is visible all over
the camp. And was used as a training point for men
who would train to and from the tower. So here we
have the obverse designs. And, Gary, if you'd like
me to go through the reverse we can do that -Chair Marks: Yes, please.
Mr. Harrigal: -- and then we can pair them up.
Reverse design Number 1, this design features
Montford Point Marines saluting.
The

inscription

reads,

"For

outstanding

50
perseverance and courage that inspired social
change in the Marine Corps." Additional inscriptions
are "2011" and "Act of Congress."
Design Number 2, this design features the Montford
Point Marines standing in formation with the
signature water tower rising in the background.
The
inscription
reads,
"For
outstanding
perseverance and courage that inspired social
change in the Marine Corps." Additional inscriptions
are "2011" and "Act of Congress."
Design Number 3, a variation on design Number 2.
The inscription reads, "Let this struggle be our
beacon. Let this quest be my guide. Montford Point
Marines, 2011" and "Act of Congress."
Design Number 4, this design features Montford
Point Marines marching in formation with the
signature water tower rising in the background.
The
inscription
reads,
"For
outstanding
perseverance and courage that inspired social
change in the Marine Corps." Additional inscriptions
read, "Act of Congress, 2011." And this was the
preferred reverse by the Marines.
Member Scarinci: Which? I'm sorry, which one?
Mr. Harrigal: Number 4. Reverse Number 4. Design
Number 5, this design features an eagle with its
wings raised. The inscriptions read, "For outstanding
perseverance and courage that inspired social
change in the Marine Corps." and "Act of Congress
2011."
And our final design here, Number 6, this design
features Montford Point Marines marching in
formation in front of their water tower.
The main inscription reads, "For outstanding
perseverance and courage that inspired social
change in the Marine Corps." Additional inscriptions
are "1942-1949 An Act of Congress 2011." Gary,

51
those are our designs.
Chair Marks: Okay. Thank you, Ron. I'll look to the
committee for technical questions, either for Ron or
for Don.
Member Olson: I've got just one observation. It
would be helpful before these designs are put
together to decide which side "Act of Congress" is
going to go on, so we're not faced with the prospect
of maybe selecting two designs that each have it on
there.
And then worrying about unbalancing the design if
we take it off one side. So I guess my strong
preference would be to have that figured out ahead
of time. And have it on either -Member Bugeja: I'd like to echo that. I have a big
concern with these two sets. Because you could end
up with repetition. This is Michael Bugeja speaking.
You know, the thing that concerns me about this
was, you can't leave it up to the artist putting a
mandatory device on the design, without specifying
where that device should be. Otherwise, you're just
going to have to redo different designs that might
have great appeal.
For instance, if we take a look at all the devices
here. And I spent a great deal of time doing this.
There are only really one obverse and one reverse
that matches up. And that's obverse 05 and reverse
05. And you can see that all the devices in the
proper places work there.
But you can actually pair up different designs here
and be extraordinarily repetitious both in the icon or
in the text. So I do think it's very important to
designate what should be a reverse and what should
be an obverse.
Chair Marks: Okay. Any other technical questions
for our staff.

52
Member Olson: Gary, I just have one other thing.
When we did the Nisei Soldier Congressional Gold
Medal, I found it very beneficial to have the Nisei
soldier actually speak to the group.
And I've asked the Colonel back here if would mind
maybe talking to the group. And just telling us in his
words, what is important to him on these medals.
And he would like to do that, if we could do so.
Chair Marks: I think that's very appropriate. So at
this point, let's go ahead and do that if we could get
the microphone over to the gentleman.
Lt. Col (Ret) Carter: Thank you very much. The
designs that we selected, I'm a little confused with
what I've got here, the designs we selected. This is,
let me look at this number.
For example, design Number 5, which has the front
and the rear particularly, dressed all alike. Yes,
that's the one there. We think that really represents
us fairly. It shows the types of coverage, hats we
wore at that time.
And that's, and the obstacle course during training
was jumping over those logs. And I think it gives
the best representation of what we were doing at
that particular time. Thank you.
Chair Marks: Okay. Any other questions before we
go to our review. Okay. My friend Donald has often
told us that we need to look at coins and medals as
a singular piece of sculpture, obverse and reverse.
We're only looking at obverse and reverse on this
medallion. So I'm going to suggest that as we go
through our review that you pair up.
So we're going to go through this once. You're going
to tell us about your obverse ideas and your
comments on the reverse. The ones that you think
should be matched up.
I think that will be the most cohesive discussion

53
that we could have. Would it be helpful to cull
through? It's been suggested that we cull through
these.
Member Scarinci: No.
Chair Marks: I think we only have six of each. So I
think we'll just go through them. Okay. In starting,
I'm going to recognize our member of the military
on the committee, Lieutenant Colonel Olsen. Mike, if
you'd like to start off.
Member Olson: I would appreciate it, thank you.
That would definitely be my honor. I've had, in
addition to being a current member of the military,
I've also had relatives that have served in the
Marines particularly. So this is a special event for
me, getting to meet one of these fine gentlemen.
When I looked at these, I had a strong preference
for those designs that showed some type of action.
Looking at the obverse designs. And first, I want to
compliment the artist. I think all of these are fine
designs.
There's some that I think are a little heavy on the
inscriptions. But I think in general the artwork was
very well done on these in particular.
I don't have a whole lot of problems with any of
them, other than the 1 and 2, where they're
saluting. I think those are fine designs. But Marines
are about action.
So when I looked at these I quickly was drawn to
the two that do show some action. That would be
Number 4 and Number 5. Either of those I think
would work out well.
I did speak with the Colonel prior to the
presentation here. And I just want to make sure
that all of the gear on these coins is done in a way
that is accurate.
And apparently there has been some suggestions

54
made by the group to change some of the headgear
on design Number 5. So I guess I would strongly
encourage the Mint to pay close attention to the
recommendations, and make sure that we get it
right.
That being said, Number 4 and Number 5 are the
ones that I'm most drawn to on the obverse. Those
will be getting my support, with a preference.
I understand the group is asking for Number 5. And
I would not see any reason to not give that
preference. So that one will be my top choice.
Moving on to the reverses. I think it's helpful to
know, we were told prior to the meeting the
significance of the water tower.
Without knowing the significance of that water
tower, I probably would have questioned why it was
on there. But knowing now, I think it definitely
belongs on the coin, excuse me, on the medal.
I am a little disappointed on some of these,
particularly Number 1 and Number 2, with the
amount of text that just seems to be overshadowing
the rest of the field of the coin.
I think there's probably a better way to do that. And
Number 4 does show us a better way of displaying
that. I did have some liking towards the reverse of
Number 5, even though I think it was, the
inscription is a little bit heavy there.
The eagle and the placement of the wings, and the
head of the eagle, I think that looked very, very
nice. But I'm going to revert to the wishes of the
group, who states that Number 4, not only is that
design their preferred design, but that inscription,
which there are different variations of these
inscriptions, that one is the one that means the
most to them. So my support will be going for
Number 4. That's it.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Mike. I think we'll go to

55
Michael Bugeja, on the phone. Michael, if you're
ready.
Member Bugeja: Yes, and thank you. Because I love
the artwork on many of these designs. And of
course I think the occasion is more than
appropriate.
I want to speak to this though less about the
Marines and more about what the obverse and
reverse stand for. Number 5 to me clearly is, of the
obverse Number 5, clearly to me is an excellent
choice.
It represents action. The orientation of that coin is
exquisite. The design is balanced. We have 1942 to
'49 in there. If we choose some obverses and
reverses, we would not have that.
Number 4 would have to be modified a little bit.
Because I think it's necessary to get those dates on
the obverse. But I want to speak about the reverse
in particular. Because I think Number 5 clearly is
superior on the obverse.
The Marines not only stand for itself, for the Corps.
It stands for the United States. And the United
States is depicted on one of those reverses.
And I agree with my colleague and fellow Iowan,
Michael Olson, that Number 5, the text can be
reduced a little bit. But Number 5 not only
represents the Montford Point Marines, it represents
the United States of America with an eagle that I
have not seen before on a coin, just in the manner
that this is.
This shows the determination and the independence
of the United States as represented by the Corps.
That is why I believe that is my favorite.
I can also see that Number 4 has its appeal. But I
do want to make the point that this is a medal for
the country as well as for the Marines. And to show
the appreciation by the country to the sacrifice that

56
Marines historically have made.
I don't really have anything else to say, Gary. But,
you know, in as much as I commented on the
technical aspects of this, I think it's important for
the U.S. Mint and the designers to realize that some
of the best designs have to be paired up, as we've
been doing in our meeting, with obverse and
reverse.
Otherwise designs will have to be modified. And
some of the best designs will go by the boards,
because they cannot be paired up adequately
according to numismatic and medal standards.
Thank you.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. At this point we're
going to go to Michael Moran.
Member Moran: I'm not going to stand on any
formalities of evaluating these. I will yield to the
Montford Point Marines, that they want Number 5
on the obverse and Number 4 on the reverse.
Although I would say that I agree with the
sentiment of the committee going forward, if we did
not use this eagle on Number 5, and I think it could
be polished up a little bit.
I think this is a beautiful way to convey the national
symbol with a fair amount of inscription. I would
hope we would see this again on a medal
somewhere else. Because I really think it's unique
and it needs to be held on to.
I also think that as we go through this, or after
we're done with this, before we vote, that we might
want to have Colonel Smith just come back and
second the motion that they're convinced that
Number 4 on the reverse is what they want, and
Number 5 on the obverse, just one last time. And
then that's it.
Chair Marks: Okay. Thank you, Michael. I think
we're going to swing around the table here to Mike

57
Ross.
Member Ross: I just want to say I think having the
water tower is important, so that when the Marines
look at it they remember this moment that they all
remember from what was probably a pretty gritty
day-to-day existence.
But what was important is that day-to-day existence
brought tremendous change to the Marine Corps.
And so I'm going to, again, defer to the Montford
Point Marines Association, and recommend that we
go with 5 and 4. And I just want to say, if they ever
do make a Montford Point television action series,
Number 3 would be the choice for that.
(Laughter.)
Chair Marks: Okay. Thank you, Mike. Heidi.
Member Wastweet: On the obverses I have a strong
preference, like everyone else, for Number 5. This is
a really nice design. I want to point out a couple of
things here.
This foreshortening is very tricky, but I think it's
drawn effectively here. I think it's going to work,
although it will take some attention.
And also I want to caution the Mint in paying
attention to the tones in this drawing, which
represent different depths of the relief. So the large
soldier at the background should be much shallower
in the sculpt than the soldier in the foreground.
This is a deep medal, and we can afford to have
many layers going on. And it's rendered very
eloquently. And I want to make sure that that's
followed in the sculpt as well. So a strong
preference for Number 5.
And in considering what backs that up very well,
there's two of the reverses that I would be in favor
of.
Number 5, I almost like Number 5. But I just can't

58
get past the anatomical problems about where the
wings attach to the bird's body. It's just a little too
awkward.
Like Mike Moran mentioned, it could use some
polishing and recycling on another project. I think it
would be wonderful.
The stakeholder has said that they prefer Number 4.
But I would like to make a case for Number 2
instead, which is the same subject matter in
different orientation. What I'm seeing here in
Number 2 that I want to point out, is something
that we don't see much of, and I would like to see a
lot more of.
And that is an artful arrangement of the text. So
often the text is just an add on. It's stuck in there
wherever it fits. It looks awkward, like it doesn't
belong. It looks like it's too much going on.
And if you look at the old medals of Augustus SaintGaudens, he knew and he understood that the text
was part of the artwork. And he always designed his
medals with the text, didn't add it on later.
He knew that it was part of the composition. And
that it added to the artistic nature of the medal. And
that's what I'm seeing in Number 2, that's missing
in all the others.
Well, excuse me, Number 1 also uses the same
device, but it's -- I like Number 2 over Number 4,
largely for that reason. The second reason I like
Number 2 is because we have a nice orderly line of
soldiers here.
And this is utilizing another artistic device in
repetition and rhythm. And we have this very nice
vanishing point. And this brings this up a level from
an illustration to art.
And I like that it has this interesting, in my view,
water tower, which is also monumental to the
Marines themselves. I really like design Number 2.

59
I'm in strong support of that. And I want to maybe
sway some other people to go that way with me.
Design Number 4, like I said, the text looks like it
was just kind of added in there as a, "well, we have
to have this, or this makes sense." But it just
doesn't look like it belongs there.
And the soldiers themselves don't look as orderly as
I would picture Marines as priding themselves in
their order, where these guys look a little choppy.
So back to my preference for Number 2.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Heidi. For me, I'm in total
agreement with the Montford Point Marines on the
obverse. I think that's a very nice rendering and
should be a very nice obverse for this medal.
Heidi I think indicated some of this, and I'll just
mention it briefly. Where the images kind of fade
off, if you will, I think it's going to be important that
that's picked up in the sculpt.
Just briefly, when I saw the Nisei soldier medal just
recently, there were some elements there that
should have faded, that I don't really think did.
So I'd like to make sure that the sculpt reflects what
the drawing is here. Because I think that will add a
really nice touch to the overall design. So that's on
the obverse.
On the reverse, I'm going to support two of them.
Number 4, which is the choice of the association, I
will support that. But I'm -- and I think it's a fine
design, and with the water tower being an iconic
symbol for them, I can completely appreciate that.
I will also give equal support to Number 5. Not just
because I think it's a cool image, but for the
iconology that it represents.
I think it's very appropriate. The eagle in American
iconology, of course, stands first and foremost for
freedom. And that's what these gentlemen were

60
doing when they were serving our nation, and being
discriminated against in many cases, and being
treated differently.
But yet they were there at the forefront fighting for
freedom for all of us. And so I think it's just
completely appropriate that the American bald eagle
would show up on a Congressional Gold Medal for
the Montford Point Marines.
It also stands for strength and for determination,
which certainly these gentlemen exhibited in their
service to our nation. So I just feel very strongly
and passionately that the eagle would serve very
well on this medal.
And I -- you know, in many cases you guys know
I've said it's all about the art, and we get caught up
in text too much. But in this case I think the words
that are used here are very, very important,
especially on a Congressional Gold Medal, so that
it's immediately apparent what was contributed by
these gentlemen in their service to our nation. So
I'll be giving equal support to Number 4 and to
Number 5. Donald?
Member Scarinci: I'm going to be supporting the
combination of obverse Number 2 and reverse
Number 5. Because I think obverse Number 2,
without the "Act of Congress" on it, is just an
absolutely outstanding piece of art.
And reverse 5, you know, that eagle works. That
eagle works on this piece. And it works even better
with obverse 2 because of the position of the eagle,
in an area that will be less of a depression on
obverse 1. So facing each other, the high point to
high point will be on the opposite sides.
I -- unfortunately, you know, the United States Mint
over the last two decades has devolved into giving
the recipient whatever they want in terms of its
medal design.
And somehow what's lost in this process is the fact

61
that these medals that we issue, that the United
States Congress issues, are the people's medal. And
it's the people of the United States honoring the
recipients.
And, you know, I have never been quite -- I could
never quite understand the amount of deference
that recipient groups tend to get for these medals.
You know, I will say that this particular recipient
group's selection of 5 and 4 would very well be my
second choice. And if I didn't see 2 and 5, I would
say that 5 and 4 is the next best thing.
Although, you know, as the Congressional Medal
Series goes, it would not stand out artistically
among the series in any way.
I couldn't tell you this is -- you know, that would be
a more beautiful combination than, you know, any
of the others. There's certainly much, much worse
that recipient groups have come here.
And I've listened to everybody just defer to the
recipient group when in fact, you know, again you're
to be complimented, because we're seeing a total of
six and six, a total of 12 different designs.
There was a time, you know, prior to January of last
year, there was a time when we'd be called here,
you would show us one design. And, well, that's
what the recipient wanted. And therefore, we'd
rubber stamp it.
That is not the case here. And that, you know,
you're to be complimented for that. The recipient
group is also to be complimented I think for it's
taste in selecting 5 and 4. But I'll be voting for the
2-5 combination. Because I think that's the more
artistically superior design.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Donald. And Erik?
Member Jansen: I'd like to compliment the artists
that were called to contribute these pieces of work.

62
They are I think just overall some of the finest
variety within a small population that we've seen.
I looked at Number 3, and what did you say, a
television series? I'm thinking it's a high-sugar kid's
cereal. I was originally really focusing on 4 on the
obverses. It's a simpler engraving job because the
reliefs are so much the same and so separated, but
I think I've been converted to 5.
And that's also -- and I'm pleased that that is also
the client's design. So I'm probably going to vote
heavily on 5, and yet support 3 with a not quite so
heavy vote.
When we go to the reverses, I really appreciated
the opportunity to learn the significance of this
water tower. Because it would have been a really
undesirable element from an artistic perspective.
And it probably would have gotten thrown out
because of its presence. So it's good to have.
Heidi, I really loved your comments on Number 2. I
just can't get to the chaos of that lettering. I'm with
you on lettering as an integrated piece of the
design. This is certainly moving in that direction. We
don't see it very often. We usually see it as a final
applique in the work. But I just can't get to the
chaos. So unfortunately between 2 and 4, I lean on
4.
Now, given an anatomic fix on that left wing, 5 is a
striking design in my book. If we were ever to
launch a series of medals for each service, you
could put this thing as a reverse on every one. And
maybe that's why I like it.
That left wing is kind of up and away in a funny
way. So I'm kind of left not knowing what to do
here. I'm probably going to lead with 4, and support
5 with the proviso that if 5 gets put in the fray here,
or whether it's saved and recycled.
Because I think it should be recycled. It will come in
handy, if such a thing is fair to say to an artist.

63
Because I really like it. So there you have it.
Reverse I'm going to support 4, and obverse I'll
support 5.
Chair Marks: Okay. Thank you. That completes our
initial review. Are there any followup comments?
Member Bugeja: I just want to make a quick one
again on reverse Number 5. I grow a little bit leery
of "we have to recycle things."
I think that that eagle represents the country
extraordinarily well with an orientation I have really
not seen before. If we are going to recycle it, I'd
really like the minutes to reflect that we need to.
thank you.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael. I'm going to come
to Heidi's defense on the chaos of the letters. Since
we're sending a mixed message back to the Mint.
I think it's very engaging. I mean, it get's my
attention. I like the fact that it breaks out of the
uniformity. I mean, after all, I think the whole idea
of at least an element of the modernist movement
in medallic design is to introduce the unexpected,
maybe even the tension of balance, those sorts of
ideas.
So I think it's very attractive. And I think it's
different and something that, while I've always
argued that we need to limit the text on any coin or
medal, when we do use it, especially if we have
something of any length, I think that it's a very
appealing way to present the text.
And it doesn't really bear on our decision here
today. But since it kind of came out as a subtext
here, I wanted to add my voice to what we're
impressing on the Mint.
Member Moran: Gary, I think Heidi is spot on about
the inscriptions. And she's dead on about the fact
that they are a part of the art. The art --

64
Member Wastweet: Thank you.
Member Moran: -- of any medal's from edge to
edge, regardless of what's in the center. You've got
to adhere, it's your whole canvas, your whole
pallette. But I'd like to cede the floor for the final
word to Colonel Smith.
Member Wastweet: I agree that we have been
asking for not too much text. And it often does get
in the way. But sometimes the words are really
meaningful. And I think that this is an instance
where the words are really meaningful.
Chair Marks: Colonel.
Colonel Smith: Thank you. First of all, I appreciate
your comments and your consideration, serious
consideration for this medal.
It's quite refreshing to know that people, that this
process has so much granularity to it. Our final, you
know, comments are we do agree that the
perseverance and the courage that inspired social
change is a critical legacy of the Montford Point
Marines.
And so we are sort of hard-over on that inscription.
Because we do think that that is a legacy that's not
just for within the Marine Corps, but also a legacy
that exists.
Clearly the integration of blacks into the military
was the cultural and social genesis of change in the
entire United States. And so we believe that is a
critical piece of language that is important to not
just the Montford Point Marines, but to the medal
itself, and to the wider society at large.
In taking deference to the comments that were
made, you should know that there were some pretty
visceral comments within the association on the
medal designs for the obverse 1 and 2.
And the reason that there was is that it is a

65
common phraseology that is often misinterpreted
that all blacks look alike. And the offensive aspect of
this medal was that the photos of the individuals,
they are all identical.
And that was perceived as offensive by many of the
members. That's just a straight-up comment that
was passed to us in the reflection of those medals.
We would definitely consider the reverse 2 or 4,
given the comments concerning the orderliness of
the formation. It is -- just so you know, it was taken
from a picture that is a picture in the Library of
Congress.
And the Marines are actually executing a rightfacing movement. And what they did was take a
slice of the larger formation and depict that in this
medal.
So our comments -- and there was less favorable
comments. Although nothing as outright comments
regarding the reverse of 05. But the definite
preference was to encompass the water tower. So
our final recommendation would be considerations
for the reverse of 2 or 4. Thank you.
Chair Marks: Thank you. Okay. I'll go ahead and ask
all the members to go ahead and complete their
tally sheets. And if you could pass those down to
Erik, that would be very helpful.
My understanding -- I didn't hard break us at a
quarter 'til, because I was informed that there was
just a few more minutes available for us. And we're
well within that time frame now. So we're going to
recess now for the noon hearing.
Member Olson: Could we just add these up real
quick, so they've got their answer before we go.
Chair Marks: Oh, I think that's a great idea. So let's
do the add up. And just to complete the thought
here, we're going to break for our noon meeting.

66
And we're going to try to be back in the room by a
quarter after 1:00, maybe 1:30. And at that point
we're going to start -- we'll probably start on the
Code Talker Medal Series.
In rearranging our agenda, the gentleman
representing Professor Yunus was able to come back
at two o'clock. So at that point in time, wherever we
are in our discussion, it might be a little awkward,
but I'm going to try to shift us, you know, to the
Professor's medal.
Just in recognition that we had to kind of mess with
the schedule with the representative to be here. So
just to give you a kind of overview of what our
afternoon looks like.
So momentarily here we'll have a tally on the
Montford Point Marines. You know, while we're
doing that, I'll explain the process to our friends
here from the Marines. That what we do is, in
addition to this discussion that we have, at it's
conclusion we have a formal process where each
member is entitled to vote in terms of a point score.
And each member has a tally sheet here. And
they're entitled to assign anywhere from zero to
three points to any of the designs. They could give
three to all designs, they could give zero to all
designs, or some mixture in between, which is
usually the case.
And in doing that we're weighting our scores. As a
judge of, or as a gauge of how powerfully we might
feel about any particular design.
What Mr. Jansen is doing right now is tallying those
scores into a collective set of numbers, which, when
we're done, hopefully we're going to have a clear
indication of what our recommendation would be.
To gain our recommendation, by rule we require
that any score surpasses a 50 percent threshold.
And in this case a score of 24, with eight members
here, three points possible, a score of 24 is a

67
perfect score.
So in this case the design with the most number of
points that exceeds 12, being the 50 percent, would
be our recommended design going forward, barring
any other motion by the committee to alter that.
Usually that doesn't happen.
And usually the point score would determine our
recommendation. Just so you're aware of what this
all means. So I think we're almost there.
Member Jansen: Reverse, Number 5. Obverse,
Number 5.
Chair Marks: Obverse Number 5?
Member Ross: Could you give the points?
Member Jansen: Yes. I'll give you the points in a
minute.
Chair Marks: Okay. For the obverse, design Number
1 received 1 point. Design Number 2 received
seven. Design Number 3 received zero. Design
Number 4 received six. And an overwhelming
majority, design Number 5 received 21 of the
possible 24. And design Number 6 received zero.
On the reverse, design Number 1 received zero.
Number 2 received 9, 3 received one. Number 4
received 12. And Number 5 received the most at 16,
which would be our recommendation. And then
Number 6 received zero.
Member Jansen: Those are the raw scores.
Chair Marks: So is there any further discussion or
consideration of any of that.
Member Moran: I think we do need to direct the
Mint to take a look at the eagle and to sharpen it
up.
Member Ross: Yes, yes. Get it to the anatomically
correct wings.

68
Chair Marks: I'm not even sure that really needs a
motion. I mean, unless you guys want to. I think
we've expressed that point of view.
Mr. Everhart: I can pass the words on to the artist.
Chair
Marks:
Okay.
So
those
are
our
recommendations. And I want to thank the folks
who have come from the Montford Point Marines to
honor us today with being here.
I hope our discussion has been honoring to you. I
know it certainly was intended that way. And we
wish you the very best. And thank you for your
service, sir, to our nation.
Lt. Col (Ret) Carter: Thank you.
(Applause.)
Chair Marks: Okay. With that, we will recess. And
we're going to be back somewhere between 1:15
and 1:30. We're off the record.
(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the
record at 11:57 a.m. and resumed at 1:38 p.m.)
Lunch
Review and Discuss Candidate Designs for the Code
Talkers Congressional Gold Medal
Chair Marks: Okay. With the six of us in the room,
and Michael on the phone, seven would be a
quorum. Michael Olson has stepped out, but we're
going to go ahead and we'll call the meeting back to
order.
And the next item on the agenda is the 2010
Professor Muhammad Yunus Medal. Is his
representative -Mr. Harrigal: Not at this time. We don't expect him
here until around 2:00 p.m.
Chair Marks: Then in that case we will move then to

69
the Code Talkers Congressional Medals candidate
designs. Ron Harrigal, would you please show us
the designs.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. Thank you, Gary. What we're
going to do here is we're going to give you some
background information. And we have a number of
representatives here.
And as each tribal designs come up, we'll give them
the opportunity to come in and speak, say a few
words. And then we'll go through the designs at that
point.
Public Law 110-420 authorizes the Secretary of the
Treasury to strike Congressional Gold and Silver
medals to recognize the dedication of the Native
American Code Talkers to the United States Armed
Services during World War I and World War II.
Unique gold medals will be produced for each Native
American tribe that has a member that has served
as a Code Talker. Silver duplicate medals will be
presented to the specific Code Talker or their next
of kin. And bronze duplicates will be produced to sell
to the public.
Code
Talkers
developed
secret
means
of
communication based on Native languages that
were critical to winning the war. The use of Native
American Code Talker was the first time in modern
warfare the transmission of messages in Native
language was used for the purposes of confusing
the enemy.
To the frustration of the enemies of the United
States, the code proved to be unbreakable. The
heroic and dramatic contributions of the 20th
century American Indian warriors and heroes is
being recognized as an action that significantly
aided to the victories of the United States and its
allies.
The design process. The Deputy Secretary of
Defense provides the United States Mint with a

70
prepared list of identified Code Talkers, organized
by tribal affiliation. This list is updated as additional
Code Talkers are identified and verified.
After receiving the list, the United States Mint
initiated a formal design process that contacted all
eligible tribes to request an appointment of an
official liaison from the Code Talkers Recognition
Medal Program.
We requested that the liaisons appoint a historian or
other experts to participate in the theme and design
review process, to insure the historical accuracy and
proper representation of themes and designs.
With respect to the reverse design, the Department
of Defense appointed the U.S. Army Center of
Military History as their official liaison.
For the themes, each tribe consulted with their
councils. Each council approved specific themes for
the obverse design. The designs are developed in
phases to allow each tribe appropriate time to
consult with their tribal councils, who meet on a
monthly or bi-monthly basis.
After council approvals, the tribes provided their
themes and sources to the United States Mint. The
eight designs presented today are from the first
tribes who met all the theme and material
requirements.
The United States Mint worked in consultation with
the U.S. Army Center of Military History to develop
themes that they felt represented the military
service of the Code Talkers.
All candidate obverse and reverse designs were
developed based on provided themes. And although
not required by legislation, all medals have a
common reverse design, which continues the United
States Mint tradition of maintaining common
obverse or reverses on product series.
For the reverse. All reverse designs were reviewed

71
by the 21 tribes that have been identified to date,
verified as eligible to date, ensure that the elements
within the designs are not offensive to their tribes.
The Army Center of Military History, who provided
the themes for the designs, provided their
preference design in the portfolio. After the CCAC
and the CFA reviews the designs, the plan is to
recommend designs to the Secretary of the
Treasury for approval.
The authorizing legislation does not require any
specific inscriptions. However, all tribes requested
that their tribal names, and in some cases, in their
tribal language, to be added to the designs. Other
inscriptions requested were "Code Talkers, Act of
Congress 2008, World War I, World War II."
To accommodate these requests, the tribe names,
languages and Code Talkers were added to the
obverse of the medal. And "Act of Congress, World
War I and World War II" were added to the reverse
of the medal.
The eight tribes that we'll be looking at today are
the Cheyenne Nation, the Choctaw Nation,
Comanche Nation, Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe, the
Kiowa Tribe, the Oneida Tribe, the Pawnee Nation
and the Tlingit Tribe.
Common reverse designs are up for review as well.
So we're going to go through the reverse designs
first. Mr. James "Jim" Kelley, Chief of Exhibits, U.S.
Army Center of Military History is here and would
like to speak.
Mr. Kelley: My name is Jim Kelley. I am the Chief of
the Museum Programs Branch for the United States
Army. And I'm down here, not far away, at Fort
McNair, at the confluence of the Potomac and the
Anacostia Rivers.
I'm here representing Mr. Robert Dalessandro, who
is the Chief of Military History, who has been at a
number of these meetings in the past, but

72
regrettably could not be here today.
The U.S. Army Center of Military History is the
principle organization within the Army that handles
historical matters. We publish books. We write
studies. We run 56 Army museums throughout the
United States. And do a lot of projects, as well, at
the Pentagon.
I believe you have in front of you the various
alternate patterns that have been developed for the
reverse. The -- I didn't have wits about me to bring
my eyeglasses with me today. But I will try to give
you our -our recommendation is for the design in the lower
left, that's known as Alternate 10. The reasons are,
if you have it in front of you, that basically we feel
that this design visualizes and not merely lists the
two World Wars, World War I and World War II.
That the two World Wars, and the participation of
the Code Talkers in both World Wars, is reinforced
by certain iconic elements that appear in the design.
For example, the World War I figure, clearly from
the very recognizable doughjnnnboy helmet, and
the presence of the gas mask. These are iconic
elements that evoke the First World War.
The Code Talker is using a field telephone, the first
American War in which those were used. And, of
course, to great effect in the Meuse-Argonne
Offensive in September/October 1918.
And then for World War II, the GI has the iconic
steel pot helmet, the profile on which immediately is
evocative of the Second World War.
The Code Talker uses the radio, which is the new
technology since the First World War, since the field
telephone. We have == the design shows the World
War II GI Code Talker in the herringbone twill
uniform, which is equally appropriate to the Pacific
or the European Theaters of Operations.

73
This design shows the Code Talkers not only using
the latest technologies, but actually in the act of
communicating, which is -- we feel that this is a
distinctive design that is appropriate to all the goals
of the program.
We also feel on aesthetic grounds, that within the
circular format, that it's well balanced. As you know,
balancing figures in a circle in a tondo format is
something that's been wrestled with ever since
Raphael's Madonnas.
And sometimes they can seem to spin. Here we feel
like the use of the foliage helps to reinforce the
circular format. We feel that it is not too rigid, in the
sense that the helmet breaks the line dividing
between World War I and World War II, so that it
has some artistic freedom to it that doesn't feel like
it's being forced into a small compartmentalized
space. And I suppose those are all the major
features of our recommendation in favor of design
Number 10.
Chair Marks: Are there any questions? Okay. Thank
you, sir.
(Applause.)
Mr. Harrigal: Thank you, Jim. As we go through the
designs, all the tribes reviewed these. And I'll just
read a few of the comments that went into them
that helped improve upon the designs.
Tribal liaisons requested that we add arrows and
cedar to the eagles talons. According to the
Smithsonian National Museum of American Indian,
cedar is a universal symbol in the Native
community.
The Comanche and Kiowa expanded upon this,
stating that among many of the Indian tribes the
cedar ceremony is a form of blessing that has been
passed down through the years.
Prayers from the smoke of burning cedar have been

74
used by both the Comanche and Kiowa Nations from
our past to present history as a blessing for those in
need.
The smoke takes the prayer to the Creator as it
rises from our Mother Earth. The eagle feather is
used to distribute the smoke because the eagle flies
close to the Creator.
This blessing has been used as part of our
servicemen and servicewomen prior to and upon
their return from military service overseas, as well
as a means of safe journey.
From that, we'll go into the designs. Reverse design
Number 1, this design features a stylized eagle with
sun rays, holding cedar and arrows in its talons. It
is inscribed, "Act of Congress 2008, World War I and
World War II."
Design Number 2, this design features an art deco
styled eagle holding cedar and arrows in its talons.
And the inscriptions are the same.
Design Number 3, this design features a stylized
eagle holding cedar and arrows in it powerful talons.
And again the inscriptions are, "Act of Congress
2008, WWI, WWII."
Design Number 4, this design depicts an American
eagle perched upon tightly aligned bound arrows,
which symbolizes strength and unity. The eagle
carries a banner which is inscribed, "Act of
Congress, 2008." Other inscriptions include "Honor,
Dedication, Valor, World War I and World War II."
Design Number 5, this design features a powerfully
imposed American bald eagle in flight carrying a
shield inscribed, "Act of Congress 2008", with cedar
and arrows attached. The inscriptions are, "World
War I and World War II."
Design Number 6, this design features a World War
I Code Talker using a handheld field radio. In the
background there's a partial image of an American

75
eagle. It's inscriptions are, "Act of Congress 2008,
WWI and WWII."
Design Number 7, this design represents the work
of the World War I and World War II Code Talkers.
It's symbolically shows the essence of Code Talkers
speaking in languages that only they could
understand.
It features a soldier on the right whispering secrets
into the ear of a soldier on the left. Only the two
soldiers can understand each other. No one else is
privy to their conversation. This design is inscribed,
"WWI, Act of Congress 2008, and WWII."
Design Number 8, this design features a World War
II Code Talker surrounded by stylized radio waves,
transcribing the message coming over his radio. The
inscriptions are, "World War I, World War II, An Act
of Congress, 2008."
Design Number 9, this design features a Code
Talker in uniform, looking up, focused on the task
required by him. The barbed wire's a thorny and
visceral symbol of the threat to the soldier from all
sides. And it is inscribed, "World War I, World War
II, An Act of Congress, 2008."
Design Number 10, this design depicts the actions
of the World War I and World War II Code Talkers.
In the upper field, the World War I soldier in
military uniform and a gas mask sits in a trench
while receiving a message over his field telephone.
In the lower field, a World War II soldier sits in a
deciduous forest while communicating messages.
The design is inscribed "World War I, World War II,
An Act of Congress, 2008."
Design Number 11, this design features an art decostyled eagle descending from the sky, carrying two
arrows in his right talon and a cedar branch in his
left. The eagle symbolizes the United States and the
Code Talker warrior, in his noble work in helping the
nation. The arrow symbolized the nation at war and

76
represents World War I and World War II. The
inscriptions are "World War I, World War II, An Act
of Congress, 2008."
So here we have our 11 designs for the common
reverse. Gary, I'll turn it over to you.
Chair Marks: Are there any questions, technical
questions?
Member Bugeja: I actually have an observation of a
technical nature. This is Michael Bugeja. It will
relate to reverse Number 1, 2, 3, and 5.
And this is of special interest to numismatists and
others, is getting the number of tail feathers correct
on the bald eagle. In fact, there are only a few coins
that the U.S. Mint has produced with the correct tail
feathers. All raptors have 12 tail feathers.
Actually, I'm looking back at some of the articles
about this. And there's one that mentions Greg
Weinman in 1999, with the Sacagawea dollar, that
had seemingly 13 tail feathers.
And that was -- it really had 12 tail feathers, but a
design to enhance the main tail feather made it 13.
There was a big discussion about that.
The 1878 Morgan Dollar has seven or eight tail
feathers on two different versions, because the Mint
was trying to get it right back then.
So I think that, you know, there are a couple of
eagle designs here that are very fetching, that I like
very much. Except that I would point out that all
raptors have 12 tail feathers. And it would be nice
to resolve this once and for all. Greg, do you
remember that article in 1999 about the
Sacagawea?
Mr. Weinman: Unfortunately yes, very much.
Member Bugeja: It says, "Weinman, a most
gracious host, admitted that he had never heard of
the 1878 design changes, but promised to look into

77
it."
So I just thought I'd point out that the silver bullion
eagle from 1986 has the correct number of tail
feathers. And all other designs emanating from that
should take a look at that particular bullion coin.
That's all.
Chair Marks: All right. Thanks.
Mr. Weinman: Thanks, Michael.
Member Bugeja: They've got bald eagles here in
Iowa, so I'm kind of -- isn't that right, Michael
Olson?
Member Olson: I've seen plenty of them in the last
month or so.
Chair Marks: Okay. Ron, could you now show us the
obverses. We'd like to see all of it first.
Mr. Harrigal: Do you want us to go through actually
every description? Or do you just want to pan? Do
you want me to bring them up on the screen?
Chair Marks: Let's take a pass through all of them.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. Now we do have representatives
from each of the Nations. So before we go through
their designs, I'd like to let them come up and
speak. If that's okay with you?
Chair Marks: That would be great. Let's get all of
that done. Let's do that.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. On the obverse designs, the
Cherokee Nation here. We do have representatives
from the Cherokee Nation, Mr. Clint Hastings,
Legislative Assistant. We have Mr. Clint Brown,
Legislative Officer. And Mr. Joel West Williams,
Senior Legislative Officer. And I believe Mr. Hastings
would like to say a few words.
Mr. Hastings: I'd like to thank everybody for having
me here. For many generations Native Americans

78
have had one of, if not the highest, military
enlistment rate of any ethnic group in the United
States.
The Cherokee citizens have been a part of this
tradition of service throughout the entire history of
our country. Cherokee Code Talkers served
alongside Native Americans from several other tribal
nations in World War I.
Today, the most notable Cherokee Code Talker is
George Adair, who was born in the Braggs
community of Indian Territory in 1887. Mr. Adair
enlisted in September of 1917.
After being on the firing line in France was
eventually placed with other Cherokees in the
telephone service, where they repeated, received
and transmitted military orders in the Cherokee
language.
We are proud to honor the custom of Cherokee
military service through the Code Talkers medal.
The design elements of the coin have been selected
to represent a few of the most important symbols of
the Cherokee people.
The middle of the coin depicts the seven pointed
star surrounded by an oak wreath, the center
elements of the Cherokee Nation seal.
The star represents the traditional seven clans of
the Cherokee people, which roughly translated into
English are the Long Hair, Blue, Wolf, Wild Potato,
Deer, Bird, and Paint clans.
The wreath represents the sacred fire of the
Cherokee. The outer ring of the medal contains
Cherokee Nation in English, and Code Talkers
written in Cherokee syllabary and English.
The Cherokee syllabary was invented by Sequoyah
in the early 1800's and contains 85 characters, each
of which represents a syllable in the Cherokee
language.

79
By 1825 Sequoyah's syllabary achieved widespread
popularity among the Cherokee people and was
adopted as the official written language of the
Cherokee Nation in 1825. Thanks.
(Applause.)
Chair Marks: Thank you.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. Thanks, Mr. Hastings. Okay.
We'll go through the designs. We have five to look
at here. First design, the five design feature of the
seven point star surround the oak leaf, the center
element of the Cherokee Nation seal.
The seven point star represents the traditional
seven clans of the Cherokee, which we heard
earlier. The wreath and leaves and acorn represent
the sacred fires of the Cherokee. Inscriptions are
"Cherokee Nation" in English, "Code Talkers" in
Cherokee syllabary and English.
So these are variations on all five. This is design
Number 2. Design Number 3, with different
treatment in the center area. Number 4. And
Number 5. So those are the five for the Cherokee
Nation.
Member Wastweet: Ron, were there other designs
considered for this group?
Mr. Harrigal: No, there were not.
Member Wastweet: This was the stakeholder's
request that this be the only design considered?
Mr. Harrigal: These elements, yes.
Member Scarinci: I'm going to have a real hard time
deciding on these.
Mr. Harrigal: Gary, do you want me to go on to the
next nation?
Chair Marks: Yes, please.

80
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. Cheyenne River Sioux. We don't
have a representative here, so we'll go right to the
designs. Design Number 1, this design features
elements of the Cherokee River Sioux tribe, flag and
a buffalo.
The elements in the flag are the tribe's names, the
eagle's feather, two pipes fused together and hoops.
There's a calf pipe bundle and the date, 1868. It's
inscribed, "Good River People" in Cheyenne River
Sioux Native language and in English. And the
words "Code Talker."
Design Number 2, this design features elements
from the Cheyenne River Sioux tribal flag and the
head of the buffalo. It's inscribed "Code Talker" and
"Good River People" in Cheyenne River Sioux Native
language.
Design Number 3, similar. This design features the
elements of the Cheyenne River Sioux tribal flag
and the head of the buffalo. And the inscriptions,
"Good River People" in Native language and English,
and "Code Talkers."
Design Number 4, the three design feature
elements of the Cheyenne River Sioux tribal flag
and the buffalo are the features on the side. And
the inscriptions, "Good River People" in Native
language and English, and the word "Code Talker."
Similar for Number 5 here, and Number 6. And then
Number 7, this design features the Cheyenne River
Sioux tribal flag and four tipis. The buffalo head is
imposed on it.
The four tipis represent the four bands that make
up the Cheyenne River Sioux tribe, while the buffalo
represents the tribe's reputation of being the buffalo
people. It is inscribed "Lakota Code Talkers" and
"Good River People" in their language and in
English.
And Design Number 8, this design depicts the
banner of the Cheyenne River Sioux tribe seal, and

81
four tipis. The buffalo head is imposed on them. And
the four tipis represent the four bands. Inscriptions
are "Lakota Code Takers" and "Good River People"
in the Native language and English. So here you
have the eight designs for the Cheyenne River Sioux
tribe.
Next we'll go on to the Choctaw Nation. We do have
a representative here, Ms. Judy Allen, Executive
Director of Choctaw Nation's public relations. She'd
like to speak.
Ms. Allen: Hello. It's really exciting for me to be
here today. Because to me this is a really important
step in this process. I've been working on getting
medals awarded to our Code Talkers of all the tribes
for many years. And in 2008 when this Code Talker
Recognition Act was signed by President George
Bush, it was the culmination of a lot of effort.
And the Congressman, Dan Boren, who authored
the bill, is retiring this November. And I have a goal
of getting these medals for at least these eight
tribes, minted and produced and presented before
he leaves office.
And so I'm hoping that we can do this process. I've
been very determined to meet all the deadlines that
I've been given so that we can make this happen.
And I thank all of you for being here today to help
me get through this.
But, you know, with the Choctaw Nation, a lot of our
tribal history is passed down verbally. And so we've
always been excited once the moratorium on this
information was lifted from DoD, to be able to tell
the story of our Code Talkers.
Most of you are aware that the Choctaws were the
original Code Talkers of World War I. And so our
choice was obverse 1. Because as you can see in
this, the Code Talker is lifting his head out of the fox
hole.
In World War I, the Code Talkers of the Choctaw

82
Nation had volunteered for service. And as he's
coming out of this foxhole, to our committee it
seemed that he was willing to risk his life for service
to the United States government. He's coming out
of his safety zone.
Also in this design you see that he's talking on an
original telephone for field wires. The Germans had
been tapping into the actual wires. They'd been
listening to conversations.
And the Germans were experts at breaking code.
The Allied Forces were losing the battle at that time.
They didn't really know what they were going to do.
Well, an officer just happened to hear some of the
Choctaw boys from southeastern Oklahoma talking
in their Native language. He said, what are you boys
talking?
Well, back home in Oklahoma it was natural for
them to get in trouble for talking Choctaw when
they were in boarding school. At that time they
were told learn to speak English. You have to
assimilate. So can you imagine what the Choctaw
men thought?
They said, oh, it's just Choctaw. But the
commanding officer said, no, I like it. It was like a
lightbulb went off in his head. That's where the
original code talking idea was born.
They did some field training. They started figuring
out what words in Choctaw can we use to send
coded message? Well, this idea was so successful
that not only other tribes in World War I were used,
they actually went out and sought Native American
people in World War II, trained them, sent them,
and you know the rest of the story.
What language would we be talking here in the
United States, if it weren't for the Code Talkers that
brought about those successful ends to the war?
In this design you'll see the smoking pipe hatchet

83
that is passed around in peace councils and in war
council. You'll see the three arrows that represent
the three great war chiefs in the Choctaw history,
Pushmataha, Apuckshunnubbe and Moshulatubbee.
You'll see the bow that is strung for war time. You'll
see the word (Native language spoken), which
means big gun, which is code for artillery. And you'll
see that legendary wired telephone, long before the
radio technology that was mentioned earlier.
We have been working with the 45th Infantry
Museum, out of Oklahoma City, to make sure that
all of the uniform that is portrayed in this design is
100 percent accurate.
We've worked with our Chief, our Tribal Council and
other committee members to make sure that this is
the design that the Choctaw Nation can be
agreeable, so that we don't miss any more
deadlines. Because we do want to make sure that
we meet all of your deadlines. Thank you.
(Applause.)
Mr. Harrigal: Okay, Ms. Allen was referring to design
1, so I definitely don't need to go into that in any
more detail. Design Number 2, this design features
a Choctaw Nation soldier in uniform, saluting.
To the left of the soldier is the center element from
the tribal seal. And the border of the design is a
traditional pattern that is used in Choctaw clothing.
It is inscribed "Choctaw Nation Code Talkers."
Design Number 3, this design features Choctaw
Nation soldier in uniform holding a notepad, waiting
to transmit a series of messages from his field
radio.
The soldier is gazing towards the center element of
the tribal seal. Design is inscribed, "Choctaw Nation
Code Talkers." So here we have the three designs
for the Choctaw Nation.

84
The next design series is for the Comanche Nation.
And Mr. John Plata, from Hobbs, Straus, Dean and
Walker, LLP, will speak on behalf of the Kiowa and
the Comanche tribes. Thank you.
Mr. Plata: Hello everyone. I'm John Plata, (Native
language spoken). I am a Comanche, I'm a member
of the Yamparika Band of Comanche, the root eater
band.
I'm here today in the absence of Lanny Asepermy,
who's been spearheading this project for the
Comanche Nation for many years, and worked with
Judy Allen and Choctaw as well.
And so I spoke to Lanny yesterday, he couldn't be
here today. So he asked me to come on his behalf.
He's my family. And Lanny is Comanche and Kiowa,
and I also have Comanche and Kiowa family.
So they asked me to be here on behalf of both
tribes today. So this is the design that the
Comanche Nation has chosen. And we've spoken to
the families of the Code Talkers. And this is what
they specifically decided on.
You see behind the soldier is a traditional Comanche
warrior, (Native language spoken). He's sharing the
knowledge that he has with our soldiers, so he can
pass along the language and assist in the effort.
On the left hand side is the Comanche word for
Comanche. It's actually plural. It means Comanche
as a group. Numu is singular, so Numunu. And we
have Comanche Code Talkers on the top.
Do you have the Kiowa obverse 2, as well? Obverse
2, and I won't go into the details on the Kiowa
obverse 2, because the Kiowa families and the
families of the Code Talkers chose this.
I'm not a Kiowa
symbolism. So I'm
tribe to tell you
specifically, and no

historian, I don't know Kiowa
just here on behalf of the Kiowa
the design that they selected
others. I'm now on the -- let me

85
put the mic here for a second. Do you have the
reverse side also?
I just also want to share while I'm here. This is a
honor for me to do this, you know. And speaking of
timing, as Judy was, it's very important not just to
meet the deadlines that you have in place, and to
ensure that we can share this in Oklahoma while
Dan Boren is still in office.
But it's important to Comanches specifically because
the last Code Talker passed in 2003. We still have
three widows of Code Talkers alive right now. And
they're 86, 87 and 92.
So this is very important. Each day that passes
makes it more important to get this done in a timely
fashion. The Code Talker Act of 2008 recognizes
that it's long overdue. And we would appreciate any
efforts that you can take to move this along as
efficiently as possible.
Having said that though, we want to make sure that
what is represented on the reverse image takes into
account all the considerations and the comments
from the Comanche Nation and the Kiowa tribe.
So in discussions with Lanny Asepermy yesterday,
he was relaying the thoughts of the Kiowa tribe and
the Comanche Nation on these specific designs.
Their choices were CTR-02, -04 and -11.
And the previous designs did not have the cedar
branch. And they wish to convey sincere thanks for
putting the cedar in. I wanted to note that the cedar
is considered very powerful medicine for Comanche
and Kiowa. It is used in every blessing ceremony.
And it's common, before we come to a meeting like
this, in fact, to do a cedar smoking and bless before
we come in. So we can make sure that we're doing
this good.
On Number 2, this is the design that both Kiowa and
Comanche liked the bottom part of the eagle, the
cedar and arrows in the claws. However, they would

86
like you to know the significance of the number
four.
For many tribes, and for Comanche in particular, if
that design could be changed to have four arrows,
that would be their preference.
There's many items of significance having to do with
the number four. There's the four directions,
obviously, the four seasons, there's four cycles of
life, four areas of health. Traditionally we consider
that as spiritual, emotional, mental and physical.
And there's sacred sites in our territory that the
topography -- there's four distinct peaks. And that's
Medicine Mounds in Texas and Medicine Bluff in
Lawton, Oklahoma.
And those are actively used by tribal members for
prayer. And so that's the significance of the number
four. And we would like to share that.
We know that these designs are going to be on all
the coins, but that was a message that they wished
me to convey. On design Number 4, if the eagle on
design Number 2, if the bottom half could be placed
on design Number 4, with the wording, "World War
I and World War II", the way it's printed on Number
2, on to Number 4, that would also be acceptable
and a preference for them, for both Kiowa and
Comanche.
And then on Number 11, the only specific comment
that I received was that this design was also
acceptable if it had four arrows instead of the two
arrows.
I just want to mention also, you know, traditionally
for Comanche, the cedar that we use is from the
Slick Hills of the Wichita Mountains, just north of
Lawton. And it's called (Native language spoken).
And I'm not -- and that's Red Berry Cedar.
I'm not sure the cedar that's depicted in all these
pictures, what kind of cedar it actually is. But the

87
cedar we use in blessings is the red cedar. So I just
wanted to add that. But I thank you for your time.
And I just wanted to give you the names of the
surviving widows, if I could. Ina Parker is 87, the
widow of Simmons Parker. Hermina PermansuLang, 86, widow of Melvin Permansu. And Ann
Holder, who's 92 right now, and the widow of
Robert Holder. So that underscores the importance
in timing of this for us. Thank you.
Chair Marks: Thank you.
(Applause.)
Mr. Harrigal: So we basically have on the Comanche
Nation, we have three variations of the same basic
theme here. The first two designs depict a far view
of a soldier kneeling in the sands while speaking on
a hand radio. And a Comanche warrior spirit, with
long flowing hair, stands behind him providing
guidance and holding a spear.
And the third design is a closeup of the faces of the
soldier and the spirit. All designs are inscribed,
"Numunu" and "Comanche Code Talkers."
Okay. On the Kiowa tribe, we have three variations
of the same basic design. All three designs depict
the Kiowa tribe logo, featuring a warrior in native
dress carrying a U.S. Cavalry bugle, U.S. Cavalry
sword and a war bonnet.
It is inscribed "Kiowa Tribe" and also "Code Talker",
for design 1, 2 and 3. So basically just different
treatments on how they would be depicted.
Member Wastweet: Ron?
Mr. Harrigal: Yes.
Member Wastweet: Could you point out the bugle?
You said there was a bugle, and a sword.
Mr. Harrigal: Oh, you're putting me on the spot
here, Heidi.

88
Member Wastweet: Sorry.
Mr. Harrigal: I don't -- this is from the tribal seal
directly.
Member Wastweet: So this was drawn by one of our
artists, based on their seal? Is that correct?
Mr.
the
the
But

Harrigal: Yes. And let me -- that's what I had in
description on it. And I don't believe I see it in
symbol. So my description is wrong, I believe.
we'll check on that.

Member Wastweet: Okay.
Mr. Harrigal: So thank you for pointing that out,
Heidi. But that is basically the element of the seal,
central element of the seal.
Okay. The Oneida Nation. And I believe we have Ms.
Chris Cornelius, Oneida Nation, is on the phone. Ms.
Cornelius are you there or not?
Okay. I don't think so. Okay, there was a potential
that she was going to be on the phone to speak on
behalf of the Oneida Nation. But apparently she
didn't dial in. So we will go straight to the designs.
All three designs feature the great white pine of
peace and four white roots atop a turtle. To the left
of the tree is a footprint of a bear, a bear claw. And
to the right of the tree is a footprint of a wolf.
Atop the great white pine tree of peace is an eagle
landing in flight. Near or underneath the turtle are a
war club and six arrows bound tightly together.
An image of the two row wampum belt constructed
of quahog beads is at the bottom of the design. It is
inscribed "Oneida Nation Warriors", and they
changed our words, in Native language and in
English. So we have design 1, design 2, and 3.
Member Wastweet: Did they state a preference?
Mr. Harrigal: I believe they did. Obverse 2, I

89
believe, was their preferred design.
Okay. So we'll move on to the Pawnee Nation. And
there are no representatives here on the Pawnee
Nation.
We have three variations of the basic design. All
three designs depict inner circle elements of the
Pawnee Nation seal, which includes the wolf, the
tomahawk and the peace pipe, morning star, sage,
cedar and the banner inscription "Chaticks Si
Chaticks", which translates to "Men of Men."
Other inscriptions are "Pawnee Nation Code
Talkers". So we have design 1, different treatments
on design Number 2. And Number 3 is more of an
artistic rendition.
And the next designs we have are the Tlingit tribe.
There are two designs. Design Number 1 features a
Tlingit Code Talker soldier wearing a Tlingit killer
whale headdress.
The soldier is kneeling on his right knee and holding
a rifle in his hand in case of attack. He sends a
coded message. He wears World War II era uniform
and carries his equipment on his back, the antenna
raised as he talks.
Generic foliage is shown behind him to show that he
is in the field. Before him are three semi-circles that
signify the transmission of the radio signals as the
message is sent from him to his recipients. It is
inscribed "Tlingit Code Talkers." And this is their
preferred design.
In design Number 2, this design features the killer
whale headdress, which for the most part was used
in ceremonial events. There is a continuous
unbroken line of symbology connecting the tribe's
name to their military duty, with two concentric
circles that represent each World War, and the Code
Talkers that they served in. It is inscribed "Code
Talkers" and "Tlingit." So here we have the two
designs for the Tlingit.

90
Member Wastweet: Ron, so would he -- would the
soldier literally have worn that decorative head
piece in the field? Or is that symbolic?
Mr. Harrigal: It's more of a symbolic representation.
I believe he would be wearing -- maybe in a military
uniform he would be wearing a headdress as part of
a ceremony. But I don't believe he would be actually
wearing this in -- we don't have any confirmation
whether it was something that he would have done
in the field, or not. But I believe that it would not be
part of being in the field.
Member Olson: That's a pretty big target on the top
of your head if you're in the field.
Mr. Harrigal: Well I think it's, you know, the artist
the representation. And, you know, the artistic
license of pulling the two together. Did I dance, or
spin that right? We don't have confirmation. I mean
-Member Olson: So that's not a realistic depiction of
a scene that could have happened then?
Mr. Harrigal: Yes, most of these, and again, in most
of these scenes, you know, we're not really working
from actual military photographs. And it's the artists
pulled together.
And we make sure the elements are right. You
know, we use materials for inspiration. But
obviously, the headdress is the centerpiece of what
they want to display on this medal itself.
So, Gary, I'd like to put this to you. How would you
like me to present them here? Do you want to do
discussions on the reverse first?
Hello? The batteries may be going dead, because
it's been on continuous. We just have to pass the
mics around that are active.
Chair Marks: There we go. I turned it off and turned
it back on.

91
Member Bugeja: I can hear you guys perfect.
Chair Marks: Okay. I'll repeat quickly that we had a
situation this morning, based on the flow of our
work, we had to ask the representative for Professor
Yunus to come back this afternoon.
His time is limited. And so in order to make sure
that we can have him here and involved in the
consideration of the professor's medal, what I want
to do, and I know this is a little bit disjointed. And
I'll ask you to bear with me.
But we need to set aside the Code Talker medals
here for just a moment. And I'm going to ask us to
shift to Professor Yunus. So, Ron, if you can, as
soon as you're prepared, go ahead and go through
that material for us.
Review and Discuss Candidate Designs for the
Professor Muhammad Yunus Congressional Gold
Medal
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. Sam Daley-Harris is here. He's
the CEO for the Center for Citizen's Empowerment
and Transformation. And he's welcome to come up
and say a few words on behalf of Professor Yunus.
Mr. Daley-Harris: Thank you very much. It's been,
I've been there most of the time. An inspiring
morning and afternoon. What I briefly want to do is
tell a very quick story about how he founded his
work. And one quote to leave you with a good flavor
of Professor Yunus.
Professor Yunus came to the United States from his
then-East Pakistan in 1965, as a Fulbright Scholar,
getting a Ph.D. in Economics at Vanderbilt.
After his country's -- after the establishment of his
new
country,
Bangladesh,
he
returned
to
Bangladesh and taught at a university.
There was a famine in the country. This was at a
time where Henry Kissinger had called Bangladesh a

92
bottomless basket case. He returned to his country
to teach at a university.
And he said, in the famine, with people starving on
the doorstep of his campus, that the economic
theories in his textbook were very elegant. But they
weren't working in the village next to his campus.
And he was going to go in the village and learn
economics from the villagers. Actually, what was
going on -- in his biography he said he dreaded
going to his own lectures with their elegant
theories, with a famine outside his classroom door.
And he wanted to see if he could be of use to one
person for one day. And he went into this village in
1976. He met a woman who was making bamboo
stools for sitting on.
And he asked her how much money profit she made
every day. And she said she made two pennies a
day profit. And he said, how is that possible? It's a
beautiful stool. Why do you only make two pennies
a day profit?
She said, I don't have the money to buy the
bamboo, so I borrow the money from a
moneylender, a trader, on the condition that I sell
the finished product back to him at a price he sets.
And the price he sets barely covers the cost of the
bamboo. I make two pennies a day profit.
He said, well if you could sell it to anyone, could you
make more than that? She said, I could. But I don't
have the money to buy the bamboo. I have to keep
borrowing.
So he had a student go around the village to find
out who else borrowed from this moneylender. The
student found 42 people who needed a grand total
of $27, less than a dollar each, in order to pay back
the moneylender, buy their raw material, make
whatever they made and sell it to the highest
bidder.

93
He did this. He lent 42 people a grand total of $27.
And the woman who he originally met went from 2
pennies a day to $1.25 a day, because now she
could sell her stool to the highest bidder.
These 42 people were the first borrowers of what
became Grameen Bank, which means village bank.
And the bank now has more than eight million
borrowers affecting 40 million family members.
Now this is a person who wanted to see if he could
be of use to one person for one day. And one other
quote. I'd been with him 20 years ago, when he
would be asked, what was your strategy?
Now this gets into the genius and the revolution in
his work. What was your strategy in forming
Grameen Bank? And he would answer, I didn't have
a strategy, I just kept doing what was next. But
when I look back, my strategy was, whatever banks
did, I did the opposite.
If banks lent to the rich, I lent to the poor. If banks
lent to men, I lent to women. If banks made large
loans, I made small ones. If banks required
collateral, my loans were collateral free.
If banks required a lot of paperwork, my loans were
illiterate friendly. If you had to go to the bank, my
bank went to the village. Yes. That was my
strategy. Whatever banks did, I did the opposite.
And as you know, he's now the seventh person to
have received the Nobel Peace Prize, the
Presidential Medal of Freedom, and now the
Congressional Gold Medal. He's deeply honored to
be receiving this. And I thank you for the moment
to give you a flavor for who this man is. Thanks.
Member Moran: Could I give you a real quick cross
note? When I went in to the internet and just looked
at the images. I looked at it and drew the
conclusion that this was a man who was basically
cheerful --

94
Mr. Daley-Harris: Yes.
Member Moran: -- very happy within his own skin.
Mr. Daley-Harris: Yes.
Member Moran: Is that fair?
Mr. Daley-Harris: Yes, yes.
(Applause.)
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. Now, I don't know. Do we want
to go into these designs? I know Gary stepped out
for a second.
Member Moran: Yes. Let's
reverses, then continue.

just

start

on

the

Member Wastweet: He said to keep going.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay.
Member Wastweet: He'll be back in just a minute.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. Public Law 111-253 authorizes
the Secretary of the Treasury to strike one
Congressional Gold Medal for Professor Muhammad
Yunus, in recognition of his contributions to the fight
against global poverty.
And you heard a lot of the background already. So I
really don't need to go into this any more. I think
we can go right to the actual design elements.
One thing that is very key to Professor Yunus is the
words, "Let us send poverty to the museum." And
you'll see that on a number of designs. And also,
"Banker to the Poor" is also another key inscription.
Obverse designs. Design Number 1, Professor Yunus
sowing seeds. The Bengali inscription means
"sower." It features his signature as well.
Design Number 2, without the small image above
his right shoulder.

95
Design Number 3, this is his preference. And it also
has the artistic weave of fabric that's used in
garments and saris. And it's called a jamdani fabric.
They're Bengali hand woven fabrics.
Design Number 4, is similar to 3, but does feature
the jamdani design.
Design Number 5, is a straightforward three-quarter
portrait of Professor Yunus.
Design Number 6, a similar three-quarter portrait. A
small lotus water lily in the lower right, it's closed
symbolizing the seed of Professor Yunus' dream of
ending world poverty.
Design Number 7 features the full frontal view of
Professor Yunus. The jamdani fabric is used to
frame the portrait. Design Number 8 features a
three-quarter portrait of Professor Yunus, with the
unique jamdani design in the background.
Design Number 9, a version similar to Number 8
without the jamdani fabric design. Design Number
10, a full frontal view of Professor Yunus, subtle
references to the jamdani in the background.
Design Number 11, three-quarter portrait of
Professor Yunus with two open lotus flowers, one on
each side of the portrait.
Design Number 12, it's a close to full portrait of
Professor Yunus, his quote and title to one of his
books, "Banker to the Poor" is used as an
inscription. Now I'll go through the reverse designs
if that's what the committee would like.
Chair Marks: Yes.
Member Wastweet: Can you, while you're here, tell
us what the CFA had to say?
Mr. Harrigal: I don't believe I have that information
in front of me, 8 is what they were looking at.
Chair Marks: Okay.

96
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. The reverse designs. All the
reverse designs, with the exception of 3, feature
unique representations of women that operated the
businesses financed through the micro-loans.
All
eight
obverse
designs
represent
the
extraordinary work of Professor Yunus and his
mission to eradicate poverty through the world.
Design Number 1 represents the Bangladeshi
woman and her families that benefit from the microloan seed money.
Design Number 2 depicts women and their families
as principal beneficiaries of Professor Yunus' microcredit initiative.
Design Number 3 depicts a montage of three
women, each who has prospered from the microloans, enabling them to create better world for their
lives.
Design Number 4 is similar to 2, but does not depict
the families.
Design Number 5 depicts a woman working on a
loom and another women using a churn to create
the jamdani fabric.
Design Number 6 shows the lotus open in full bloom
rising above the water, cradling the world in its
open petals. This design symbolizes the realization
of Professor Yunus' dreams of ending world poverty
through the establishment of social business models
in every country.
The Bengali translation is, "Let us send poverty to
the museum," a favorite quote of Professor Yunus',
inscribed on the globe. It's also a part of his Nobel
Peace Prize, the speech that he did on the
acceptance.
Design Number 7 depicts Professor Yunus
surrounded by a group of women borrowers. The
inscription, "Empowering women to create a world

97
without poverty," embodies the extraordinary work
of Professor Yunus. The dove represents hope for a
better tomorrow.
Design Number 8 depicts Professor Yunus
surrounded by a group of women borrowers, framed
by unique jamdani design. The dove is meant to
represent a hope for a better tomorrow. So here we
have eight candidates for the reverse.
Member Wastweet: Ron?
Mr. Harrigal: Yes.
Member Wastweet: Did you say the Professor was
pictured in that last one?
Chair Marks: Yes, where is he?
Member Moran: Next to the last one for sure.
Chair Marks: He's behind the birds.
Mr. Harrigal: So design Number 8 does not present
Professor Yunus.
Member Wastweet: But 7 does.
Mr. Harrigal: Yes. He's in the middle, right above
the bird, slightly to the right of the bird.
Member Moran: Does he have a preference?
Mr. Harrigal: His preference is this one, Number 6.
Member Moran: And what's the CFA choice?
Mr. Harrigal: The CFA choice also recommended
this, but slightly downsizing the main elements. But
we've yet to have their written recommendation on
this. I mean, that was what was discussed in the
meeting.
So I'll go back to the obverses and, Gary, turn it
back over to you.
Chair Marks: Okay. Do we have any technical

98
questions, anyone? Okay. With that, I think we're
going to move towards our consideration, our
review. Is there anyone who cares to start off our
discussion?
Member Wastweet: Do you want to eliminate or talk
about all of them?
Chair Marks: Heidi suggested that we go through a
process of elimination. Do we think that's
necessary?
Member Moran: We'll get there.
Chair Marks: You know, I think we'll go through this
pretty fast. Okay, you know what, I'm just going to
pick, how about Michael Moran. Why don't we start
off with you, Mike, if you're ready.
Member Moran: All right. On the obverse or both
sides.
Member Wastweet: Both.
Chair Marks: Let's go with both, seeing that this is a
-Member Moran: It's late in the day. I like the one
that he liked, but I liked it on my own. I think it
expresses his personality. And that's the obverse
Number 3.
I like the relief texture of the material in the
background. I think it will make a pleasing medal.
And I don't think there's any point in my going
through the others. That one's my preference.
And on the reverse, I believe that women doing
these tasks that are dated will not stand the test of
time. We tried that ourselves on the Isabella
Quarter at the Columbia World's Fair.
It wasn't well liked then and it definitely is not well
liked now. And as a result I would toss those out. I
would draw attention to reverse 8 on that dove.
Guys, we can do better. My vote is for Number 6,

99
just like the CFA.
Chair Marks: Michael Olson.
Member Olson: Yes. I'm not going to take a lot of
time here either. I think Number 3 is one that I
thought was attractive prior to hearing the
recipient's wishes. So I'll go with 3.
I do have a problem however on the reverses with
Number 6. This is a U.S. Congress issued coin. And
I'm not sure that my preference would be to have a
foreign language on it. What is that statement
again? Send poverty to the museums?
Mr. Harrigal: Send poverty to the museums.
Member Olson: That's a very appropriate statement.
I just -- my preference would be that I would be
able to read that when I saw the coin, without
asking for an interpretation.
That being said, I take a look at Number 7 and I like
that. He's surrounded by many people that he's
helped. It's obviously a cheerful situation, with the
dove there. That one or Number 8, I think, would be
good. But I guess my preference would be for
Number 7.
Member Moran: You got to feed that bird.
Chair Marks: Okay. Are you done, Mike?
Member Olson: Yes. That's it.
Chair Marks: We'll go to Erik.
Member Jansen: Michael, thank you for your
question as to is this generally a happy man.
Because I was actually struggling with are these
portraits accurate? Because they couldn't be the
same man in my head. Because they looked like two
different spirits. And so thank you for that question.
I come out at Number 3. Number 4, fine, if you
want to simplify it. And I'll anxiously await Heidi's

100
opinion on that one. And I mean that seriously.
I happen to like the pattern in the background. If
the engraving staff at the Mint can handle that with
the name there and not get lost. There's a lot of
competing detail from eight o'clock to noon on that
coin. So I'll speak to 3 unless the better answer is 4.
You tell me.
When it comes to the reverse, I got to tell you, I
looked at this page of pictures and I said, this is
awesome. Thank you for getting the artists inspired,
or whatever it took.
Because whereas some of these may look like the
spinning lady on the Columbian quarter, I was
inspired by the variety of thoughts I can have here.
I went to 6 immediately because I tend to like
heavy graphic things sometimes. But I'm not sure. I
do like the comment of moving the -- and I
apologize for not knowing the language that is
there. I'd like to see that in English as well. I think a
lot is gained in terms of what people will see and
understand, versus the implicit insult that we're
rolling out there by converting it to English.
When I weigh them out, it is our coin. It does need
to educate people. And so I say that there. So I will
be supporting 6 with an English text change.
Now having said that, I also like 7. Now one side we
have a man, a happy man, a man of spirit. On the
other side we have a populous with a fleeting dove.
I think there's a message there. Heidi, tell me, is
that too busy, Number 7?
Member Wastweet: Yes, it is.
Member Jansen: Okay. For the record, I think
Number 8 looks like a fish with wings.
Member Wastweet: Yes, it does.
Member Jansen: I apologize. I apologize, but we
can do better.

101
I would -- if someone else rallied some support for
almost any one of these images with the women,
my favorite is probably Number 4. Because it shows
different ways, different economies that are using
the money, between handcraft and agriculture. And
I think that's really important.
So, gosh, I'm going to come out on this, since I was
just told 7 is too busy. I'm going to support 4 and 6.
Thank you very much.
Chair Marks: Donald.
Member Scarinci: Well, you know, first, I mean,
another set of designs that -- can you hear? It's not
on, sorry. You know, again, another set of designs
that made me happy coming in here today.
Because, you know, I mean, there's a lot here to
like.
In terms of the obverse, in my mind it really came
down to 3 or 7. And, you know, hearing what we
talked about today, I think 3 is a no-brainer on the
obverse.
On the reverse, you know, I mean, I'm inclined to
support 6. I like it with the original. And I don't
have the same aversion to foreign languages,
foreign flags, on U.S. coinage. And I have no
problem with that at all.
I think it lends to, you know, to who he is. I think
keeping it the way it is, I think 6 as it is, is just fine.
And, you know, 1, just to make an honorable
mention, 1 is a nice design.
And I like the way, you know, again, among the
many things that made me happy, you know, today.
I really like what you did. You know, you've got the
figure extending down to the rim on the bottom.
Above, you know, above the line on the top.
I just think that's, you know, exactly what I'm
hoping we're going to continue to see in all these
things. This is creative, you know, this is a nice

102
design.
I just, you know, A, I think it looks a little too much
like a World Food organization piece. And B, I think,
I never like these vignettes, this montage thing that
we do with coins.
And I think after the State Quarter series, I'm
montaged out. So because of that, I just, you know,
I'd have been sold maybe without the montage. I
just love the women and the way you did it. I mean,
I think that's really cool, even though it's World
Food organization kind of design.
A note about the things with cell phones, I see what
you're trying to depict. You know, you're trying to
depict them in the modern world.
And I guess ever since I got text messaging, I'm not
sure if this is a welcome to the modern world, or a
prison cell that I've been convicted too, owning, you
know, responding to people's text messages all day
long and all night long.
So I don't know if this is modernization or success,
or anything really good. The jury's still not in for me
on these things. So I think the cell phone, I just, the
three designs with the cell phone. I know what
you're trying to do. It's hard to do it.
I don't really know what other object you could
have put in their hands, you know. The iPad wasn't
invented yet in 2008. Oh, these are a 2010 thing,
so, yes, you could have put an iPad in there.
But in any event, I think I like the simplicity of
design 6 on the reverse. So it's 3 on the obverse, 6
on the reverse, as is.
Member Jansen: Two comments -Member Bugeja: Gary, this is Michael.
Member Jansen: -- on the cell phone -Member Bugeja: Would you mind my going next?

103
Member Jansen: That was not as much for them to
join Facebook and Twitter, as much as that cell
phone is used, if I'm not mistaken, to collect and
send in the application for money, as well as reply
that your loan is available.
So it really, one of the problems they dealt with,
because I've been through this, is how to manage
processing the paperwork and the loan app. And
somebody said, well, just take a picture of this basic
form and send it in. And that's what they do.
The second thing, let's see, was your comment. Oh,
Gary, this is a point of clarification. On Number 6,
I've heard a couple of people that like it.
I've heard opinions both ways in terms of the text.
If 6 is selected on the reverse, can we have a
discussion about that text?
Chair Marks: We certainly can. First though, I'd like
to get all the members to have their initial
comments out of the way. At this point -Mr. Weinman: Gary, I think the representative
would like to speak.
Chair Marks: Okay, sir.
Mr. Daley-Harris: One moment, not advocating for
the cell phone, because it is -- they started
Grameen Phone 15 years ago. It's the largest cell
phone company in Bangladesh.
But he mostly started it so the women in the
villages could become phone ladies. Selling phone
time to people in the village who had no other
access to phone service. So even though there
might be 15 million Grameen subscribers, it's the
250,000 in the villages, why he started it.
Chair Marks: I see. Okay. Let's get back on our
process here.
Mr. Weinman: Gary, I think Michael Bugeja was -

104
Member Bugeja: Yes, Gary, I've got something that
has come up on my end. So I respectfully request
that I go next.
Chair Marks: Certainly. Please go now.
Member Bugeja: I'd really like to weigh in on this.
And then I have to attend to something in my office
that's of an emergency nature.
Chair Marks: Certainly. Proceed, please.
Member Bugeja: Okay. I wanted to say, and I'll be
very brief. But first of all, these designs are all so
inspiring. And I'm going to keep them and look at
them, even ones we do not choose.
My favorite for the obverse is Number 3. I just love
the expression, the character, the signature. The
text is the right style. We've got depth with the
design. I think that's very important.
I'm going to speak to two of the reverse designs. I
tend to agree with my colleague, Michael Olson,
about Number 6. We want this to inspire those who
might not be familiar with the Professor.
The two that I like, I like for almost numismatic
reasons that have to do with depth and orientation.
Number 1, "Banker to the Poor," really strikes me
as a beautiful triptych, which we see far too little of
in our coins, with the main figure with a harvest of
abundance, which is a universal icon, in a basket
almost coming out of the coin, of the medal. I'm
sorry, forgive me.
In reverse Number 7 you have a dove. This is a
three-dimensional medal design, if you take a good
look at it. First of all, the text is wonderful. And how
it carries you around the coin, empowering women
to create a world without poverty.
I keep saying coin, it's a medal. The images of the
people that he helped are there. But the orientation
of the dove gives a three-dimensional quality.

105
And it's almost an optical illusion, because if you
stare at it long enough, the dove seems to be
holding up the people. And then, if you stare at it
again, the dove is above the people.
It's a really brilliant concept. Yes, it is busy. I
understand that. But I have never seen orientation
quite like that. I will send Greg Weinman my others.
And if you'll just forgive me for leaving the meeting
on short notice. I will be back as soon as I can.
Gary, is that sufficient?
Chair Marks: Yes. Thank you, Michael.
Member Scarinci: Mike, before you leave can I just
ask you a question? This is Donald.
Member Bugeja: Sure.
Member Scarinci: Do you have any thoughts about
1?
Member Bugeja: About 1 reverse?
Member Scarinci: Yes, 1 reverse.
Member Bugeja: 1 reverse, I was struck by the
triptych nature of it. I like the universal symbols. I
liked "Banker to the Poor." That spoke to me as a
journalist as much as anything else. I wish the
United States had bankers for the poor.
I do think it's going to communicate to people who
collect medals and want to be inspired by them. I
know my liking for 1 and 7 might be a little off beat.
But I think 1 is entirely fetching for me from a
triptych nature.
Member Scarinci: And you don't care for 6?
Member Bugeja: You know, I really don't care for 6.
It is an icon. It's an icon that doesn't speak to me
the way the beautiful artwork speaks to me.
Also, you know, I don't like, if you're going to have
that kind of a modernistic design, you can't really

106
have a realistic obverse.
And when you're doing a portrait with a realistic
obverse, such as we're liking with Number 3, it's
awful hard to get a stylistic reverse. So I like to
have my obverses and reverses be artistically
harmonized, rather than combining two distinct
style.
Member Scarinci: Thanks.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Michael.
Member Bugeja: Thank you very much.
Chair Marks: And I'll proceed with my comments.
Before even coming to the meeting, or knowing that
Professor Yunus had chosen Number 3 obverse as
his selection, I was in favor of that image.
As far as the reverse, seeing that 6 is his selection
and that it symbolizes the realization of his dream.
And being the modernist approach, which I feel
some appeal to, I'll support Number 6.
I don't think it's an either or here. We're talking
about should we have one language or the other. I
would suggest a compromise, whereas we honor the
foreign language that is associated with our honoree
here.
And then that being a short quote, that we maybe
restack these. We could have the one language
above, and then put the English version "Let us
send poverty to the museum" below. It's only seven
English words. I don't see a problem there to have
both.
I think it would be honoring to the recipient. But
then also would be able to educate, as some of my
colleagues have indicated that the English words
would do.
So that would be my proposal if the committee
wants to make a recommendation subsequent to
our initial evaluation. And if 6 is the recommended

107
design, that's what I would suggest we move
forward with. So with that, I'm not going waste any
more time. I'm going to recognize Heidi for her
comments.
Member Wastweet: Okay. I too have a strong
preference for obverse Number 3. It seems like we
are all in agreement on that, which is great. I think
it's a really beautiful design. And I commend the
Mint for doing that.
I want to comment though on the CFA's choice of
Number 8. And I want to advise that this drawing is
not one that would translate well to a medal for a
couple of reasons.
The mouth being open, whenever you show teeth
on a person on a coin, it's extremely difficult to
make it look good. It's not something that
translates well.
The way his cheek just barely shows on the other
side of his face, that's also very difficult to depict in
a sculpt. And the shadowing on his jaw line is
effective in this drawing, but if you imagine, the
coin has no shadowing. That jaw line becomes very
confusing and doesn't have the shape that we see in
the drawing here.
So even though CFA likes Number 8, I strongly
dislike it for the reasons I don't think it will translate
to the coin. So I just wanted to comment on that,
since that was CFA's choice.
On the reverses, I appreciate Don's comments on
how he views the women at work. I was
immediately drawn though to Number 1 as just
simply a really beautiful design.
I like the main character's gesture of giving.
Because I think that is Professor Yunus'
characteristic as well, as he is a very giving person.
And here she is giving back to the man that gave to
her. And I think this is a really beautiful sentiment.

108
It's a beautiful drawing. It would translate well to a
medal. We have a large enough and a deep enough
medal to pull this design off very well.
I also like design Number 5. I think there's a way to
do a montage that works. And I think this is one
that works. I like the way it is not so literal. And the
design in the background, the beautiful characters, I
like Number 5.
The cell phones I understand are an integral part of
what he did. I don't think that they read particularly
well on a medal. So I'm not drawn to that.
Number 6, which seems to be a favorite here. I
don't oppose this. I would support this more if we
were talking about a smaller coin, rather than a
large medal.
Like I said, I don't dislike it. I think it is a nice
design as well. And it's clean. As far as the text
here. I think if we put the English on here, it's going
to get too cluttered.
We could replace the Banker to the Poor. But that's
a strong statement as well. My thinking here is that
these medals always come in a box with a card.
Right, Don?
Mr. Harrigal: Actually, these do not have a card in
them.
Member Wastweet: Oh, they do not?
Mr. Harrigal: No.
Member Wastweet: So there's no paperwork that
comes with this?
Mr. Harrigal: No.
Member Wastweet: I stand corrected.
Mr. Harrigal: We've had requests for paperwork. But
we do not at this time.

109
Member Wastweet: Okay. I was going to comment
that that would hold the English translation, but my
theory has been squashed.
Mr. Harrigal: I can say that we did do a rendition
with alternating text, the Bengali, the U.S.
translation. And it does crowd the design a lot.
We did share it with Professor Yunus, and he did not
like the translation with the two texts. And so the
request was to use the Bengali language here.
And so we went back and we checked. And we have
done foreign languages of our medals in the past. I
have a copy of Rabbi Menachem Schneerson medal,
which we have a Yiddish inscription across the top
that says basically, to improve the home. So I'll just
pass that around so the members can see that.
Member Wastweet: Thank
concludes my comments.

you.

I

think

that

Chair Marks: Mike Ross.
Member Ross: I'll echo everyone's approval of
Number 3, both because it's the stakeholder's
choice and it reveals this humanity.
On the reverse I like, would love one of the
depictions that have the women in it, based on the
introduction we got. Professor Yunus did everything
in the reverse of what banks did. I think the banker
to the poor, with women using those loans is a
marvelous image.
And for some reason, Number 6 strikes me as the
seal of the Environmental Protection Agency, which
I'm all for. But it's not fair giving them the EPA seal
as part of the award. So I would, Number 1 or
Number 4 on the reverse.
Chair Marks: Thank you, Mike. We're getting a little,
I think we're getting a little squeezed for time
perhaps.
Mr. Harrigal: You're mic's off.

110
Chair Marks: You know, the light's on. I don't know.
Do you think we might take a break pretty soon, so
we can get some technical people in here to find out
what's wrong with our mics? Are you picking me up
yet? Because this is becoming a drag on our
agenda.
Thank you. So are there any quick follow ups? I
want to encourage us to keep them concise if we
have some follow ups.
Member Jansen: Yes. I have one question. And it's
about the edge. Are the edges ever available on
these medals? Is that per the legal passage?
Mr. Harrigal: I'm sorry, you're saying the edge?
Member Jansen: The edge. Edge lettering or some
such.
Mr. Harrigal: Oh. Well the way we make these
medals, we make them in an open collar and then
we trim on a lathe. So there really is no opportunity
without adding another operation.
Member Jansen: You'd have to run them through a
Schuler as another operation.
Mr. Harrigal: Well it would be a similar machine. But
it would add to the cost.
Member Jansen: Okay.
Mr. Harrigal: And we currently aren't tooled to do
that.
Member Jansen: Okay. Thank you.
Chair Marks: Is this one working? This is working
now. I'm working now. Thank you, whoever did
that. So at this point, I think I'm going to ask you to
fill out your scoring forms, get those down to Erik.
And we're going to take a short break here. And
when we come back we still have the Code Talkers
to address, and also the First Spouse narratives.

111
I want to correct the agenda here that was passed
out. Unfortunately, the changes that I had asked for
as Chair, well before this meeting, to remove the
annual report discussion, and to remove the
presentation by Michael Bugeja were not done.
So the agenda does not reflect, as I had intended
for the members to get. So I don't think we're as
squeezed as maybe the agenda would suggest at
this point.
So for the balance of the meeting, when we come
back, I think first we'll start off with the results of
our evaluation on the Yunus medal.
And if there are any motions at that point we'll take
those. And then we're going to need to move rapidly
into the Code Talkers. And round out our day with
our discussion on the First Spouses.
So I'll ask the members to please be back in the
room by 3:30 p.m., knowing that we're going to
have potentially, we could have a very busy hour,
hour and a half.
Member Olson: Do we need until 3:30?
Chair Marks: Well, my experience is I'll call a ten
minute break and it's 15 anyway. I would be thrilled
if we could get back here at 3:25 p.m. So we are in
recess.
(Whereupon, the meeting in the above-entitled
matter went off the record at 3:13 p.m. and back
on the record at 3:23 p.m.)
Chair Marks: All right. We have the results for the
scoring on our Professor Yunus medal. And on the
obverse design Number 1 received one point, design
Number 2 received 1 point, design Number 3
received a perfect score of 24. And I have to believe
that's going to receive our recommendation.
Design Number 4 received six points, 5 and 6
received zero, 7 received one, 8 and 9 received

112
zero, 10 received 2, 11 and 12 received zero. Did I
go through that too fast?
Member Ross: What was 5 again? Oh, I'm sorry,
what was 4?
Chair Marks: 4 got six.
Member Ross: And what was 7, 8 and 9?
Chair Marks: 7 was one point.
Member Ross: 8 and 9?
Chair Marks: 10 received two points, the others are
all zero.
Member Ross: Thanks.
Chair Marks: Okay. On the reverse, Number 1
received 15 and would be our recommended design.
Designs Number 2 and 3 received zero, design
Number 4 received 11, design Number 5 received 2,
design Number 6 received 12, design Number 7
received eight points and design 8 received zero.
So those are the results for Professor Yunus. So at
this point we need to shift into the Code Talker
discussion. And we've already had the designs
presented to us.
We've had representatives of the various tribes
present to us. So at this point I need to entertain
the committee on this. So I will recognize Heidi first.
Member Wastweet: Thank you, Gary. This is, I
think, the most difficult project I've seen come
across our desks. We've talked before in this group
about wanting obverses to look like obverses, and
reverses to look like reverses.
But in this group we have a mixture. Some obverses
look like reverses and some reverses look like
obverses. It's also very important to this committee
that we take into consideration matching the right
designs on the fronts, with the right design on the

113
back.
That they go together in a logical fashion to tell a
story. Because we have this mishmash of reverses
that look like obverses and vice versa, it's virtually
impossible for us to pick a common reverse that will
work with every obverse.
Since we are only presented with common reverses,
this is the task assigned to us. While we have many
designs here that are attractive, it's nearly
impossible to debate the individual characteristics
when we're faced with this overall problem of not
being able to match a single reverse with all of the
obverses proposed to us.
So I would like to motion that we table the
discussion on this. The CFA won't be seeing this for
another month anyway. So we won't be holding
back the schedule too much.
So we ask that the Mint give us an opportunity to
talk about an overarching plan of attack on this,
rather than these random designs that don't seem
to go together. So my motion is to table this
discussion for now.
Chair Marks: Okay, a motion to table. Hello? Sorry
folks, I don't know what's going on with my mic. We
have a motion to table our discussion on the Code
Talkers until next month, based on Heidi's
assessment here that she provided to us. Do I have
a second?
Member Moran: Second.
Chair Marks: Michael Moran seconds the motion.
May I have any discussion? Okay. I'll have a little
bit of discussion here. I had asked for the Cherokee
Code Talker medal to be brought to the meeting, is
that here? Well, that's unfortunate.
Mr. Harrigal: I do have it upstairs. I had it this
morning and passed it around. And I can have
somebody grab it if you would like.

114
Chair Marks: I'm sorry, I intended that to be here
too. I think I had an image. Anyway, let me just
talk without it. There it is.
The way I understand how this program has come
about is there was a medal done. I'm sorry, did I
say Cherokee? I meant Navaho. I apologize for that
error.
The Navajo Code Talkers were honored with a
medal. I'm not sure what year it was, but it was
some years ago now. And, okay. Heidi's saying it
was 2000.
So in response to that, and rightly so, other tribes
inquired, as I understand, the fact that there were
other tribes involved in service to our nation as
Code Talkers. And out of that discussion I
understand that this program came about.
And if we look at that Navajo medal when we think
about putting a program together. I think the
Navajo medal kind of set the tone. Set the pattern,
if you will, for what should come as we honor the
other Nations and tribes involved.
And in that we have an obverse which is an image
that honors that nation or tribe as being Code
Talkers. And for the Navajo it looks like there's an
image of a couple of soldier's here involved in code
talking activity.
And then on the reverse looks, I'm not an expert on
the Navajo, but it appears to be their tribal symbol
or their seal. And we see that reflected on many of
the designs here, tribal seals or symbols.
And I guess I'm kind of feeling like we've got a
jumble on our hands. We're not paying attention to
the pattern that's already been set. Truly, we want
to honor all the tribes on an equal basis.
It seems to me we ought to be proceeding forward
with a program that presents itself the same for
each of the nations or tribes involved.

115
Instead we have a collection of designs here. Some
of the obverses look like they ought to be reverses.
And some of the reverses look like they ought to be
obverses.
And depending on the reverse we might pick in
common, you know, we've been asked to have a
common reverse here. It could produce a medal
with whatever given obverse we pick, which just is
going to make no sense.
And in this case we have so few choices on
obverses, I think it's going to be very difficult to find
a reverse that works with all of them.
Am I making sense? If it sounds confusing it's
because we've been given a confusing situation here
to try to weave through.
So because of that, I'm going to support Heidi's
motion. It puts us back one month, but as she
indicated CFA still has to look at these. I believe
that would be at their meeting this coming month.
We know that we're going to have a meeting
already.
And I would suggest that we proceed on that basis.
I think we need to do right by the nations and tribes
whose members served the nation in time of war.
And I don't think that we're going to accomplish
that to the level that we should given the collection
of designs that have been put together here. So if
there's any other discussion I would entertain that
now.
Member Jansen: Gary, could you pass around the
image from the Navajo Code Talker version?
Member Olson: What is it that you're wanting to do
here. I know we want to suspend talking about
these. But what are we asking the Mint to do in the
interim?
Chair Marks: Well my suggestion would be, just as I

116
discussed. And we don't certainly have to go with
my direction. I think Heidi can contribute to this
discussion too.
But my idea was, in the case of the Navajo, both
obverse and reverse were images that were specific
to that tribe. And what we're doing here is we're
saying one side, the obverse, we're going to honor
any particular nation or tribe, but then we're going
to give them all the same common reverse.
And in this case, some of the reverses don't look
like reverses. They look like obverses. And so I
guess I'm asking for something that's a little more
thought out.
Something where maybe if we can seize on what's
already been done for the Navajo in terms of an
obverse that portrays symbolically, or as an image,
activity as Code Talkers, if you will, or something of
that nature that's not a logo. It's not a seal.
And then on the reverse of each of these respective
medals. Maybe that's where the tribal image goes,
as far as a seal or a logo, or that sort of device.
Member Jansen: Yes. If you take the single set of
reverses we got and the objectives today. If one, I
went through this. And I tried to find, what is the
exception?
That is, what is the rule we have to say about
reverses, so we don't pick one that gets us in a
design problem, where both sides are dealing with
the exact same thing.
And honestly, if you don't pick, and I'm looking at
the reverses, okay, CT-E reverse 1 through 11. If
you don't pick 6, 8, 9 or 10.
Member Wastweet: Or 7.
Member Jansen: 7 is questionable, yes. You can
argue 7. Those five images all show someone
talking on a phone. If you don't pick those, you're

117
fine.
Member Wastweet: Except, if you look at the
Cherokee Nation. If you match that up with one of
the eagles, then which one to you looks like the
reverse?
Member Jansen: Hang on, the Cherokee -Member Wastweet: If you match that with, say
Number 2, which was one of the preferences for the
reverse.
Member Jansen: Let me get to Cherokee. Okay.
Member Wastweet: Put those side by side.
Member Jansen: Well they're just shading variation,
one or the other.
Member Wastweet: Pick any of them, but put that
side to side with reverse Number 2.
Member Jansen: You know, here's the thing. We
have to come to some basic rule about tribal
symbology, and this tribe endorsed insignia.
Because otherwise this is just going to turn into this
giant nightmare, where there won't be any common
reverses. Everyone will be a one off.
Member Wastweet: And that's a possibility.
Member Jansen: It is a possibility unless we assert
ourselves and structure our comments back to the
Mint, so that we get obverses or reverses.
Member Wastweet: And that's my idea about tabling
this, rather than rejecting it. Because a lot of work
and thought has been put into these designs. I don't
want to turn them down. I don't want to reject
them.
Member Jansen: You know, I -Member Wastweet: But I want them to be
organized. I want an overarching plan to what are

118
the obverses going to be like? What are the
reverses? Are we going to have a common reverse?
Are we going to have a common obverse?
Member Jansen: Yes.
Member Wastweet: Or are we going to have
individuals for each one. And that can be a separate
discussion.
Member Jansen: Yes. Rather than just table it, I
would argue we owe the Mint, and I heard two of
the organizations saying they want to get a
November deadline.
And I don't know how that all adds up between here
and November. But I know that every month it gets
closer. So I don't want to squander a month.
Member Wastweet: I do sympathize with that, yes.
Member Jansen: So I'm wondering if we table it, I'd
like to table it with the intention of developing for
the Mint staff some structure from us.
Member Wastweet: Yes.
Member Jansen: So that they can reorganize their
art, or reissue the request for some art. And when
we come back the next time, things will fit together
more Lego style.
Member Wastweet: Lego style. I like that.
Chair Marks: Okay. Other comments?
Member Scarinci: Wait, the whole idea, isn't the
whole concept of honoring the other tribes not to
single out the Navajo Code Talkers?
And instead to, you know, all of these various tribes
participated in this, and did this, and should be
honored. And if that's what we're trying to do, and if
that's where this stems from. Then we should not
treat these eight, or these tribes differently than the
Navajo.

119
And if the Navajo Code Talker design had its own
obverse and revers, then these, it seems to me, you
know, are entitled to have their own obverse and
reverse.
Otherwise we are discriminating against these. And
the problem when you discriminate in bronze from
the United States Mint, that's a statement forever,
forever.
So I'm less worried about how much time this is
going to take us. And about people's deadlines.
Than I am about the fact that we're going to be
producing something that's going to last long after,
you know, all of the people that we know and
foresee are dust.
So I think if, you know, unless you're going to tell
me that we can take the Navajo Code Talker coin or
medal. And take one, take the obverse or the
reverse from that and somehow tailor it to each so
that everything is consistent.
Unless we can do that, then I really think we need
to see, you know, I hate to say it. But I think we
need to see eight separate obverses and reverse.
And, you know, I guess what I've heard here today,
you know, the representatives here are very
passionate and very decisive about what they really
want to see.
And I think that came off loud and clear, you know.
And this may not be that hard to come up with, you
know, obverses and reverses. So that at least every
medal needs to look like the obverse is the obverse
and the reverse is the reverse.
And the first one you did is Navajo. So that's your
prototype. So your Navajo medal is your prototype.
The obverse has to look like the obverse on the
Navajo. The reverse has to look like the reverse on
the Navajo in some way, you know.
And it can't be this hodgepodge, you know. Because

120
some of the reverses look like obverses, the
obverses look like reverses. So however you're
going to do it, you know, let's be consistent with the
Navajo and let's be equal.
Mr. Weinman: Mr. Chair, I think
representative would like to speak.

the

group

Mr. Plata: Hi, John Plata with Comanche again. I
agree with the comments that were made by both
these gentlemen just previously. And being
sensitive to the time concerns, I think you for your
comments.
I think if you're going to treat it the same way as
the Navajo, and you ask the tribes to give the
obverse designs they already have and already
chosen. But it wouldn't be that time consuming, and
probably would be quicker to get a reverse design.
And I don't know if you feel that, Judy, but I think
you do. We just nodded heads a second ago. And I
think it would be very quick to get a design back
from the tribe for a reverse design that that
individual tribe could come to an agreement on.
Additionally, the language of the Act specifically
says that the design on the medals shall be
emblematic of the participation of the Code Talkers
of each recognized tribe. So having one reverse
design for a bunch of tribes I think doesn't really
support the intent of the Bill. So, thank you.
Chair Marks: Thank you, sir. And thank you for that
comment. That really goes to what my thought was
here, is that if we're going to honor your tribes and
your nations, I want to make sure we do it right.
And so I appreciate your comments. I think it's
exactly what Heidi and I and Donald just talked
about. Are there any other comments?
Member Moran: Yes, I've got one question for you,
Gary.

121
Member Bugeja: Gary, this is Michael, I'm back
from my emergency, I apologize. I just picked up
the conversation when I believe Donald was
speaking. And I'm picking up snippets of what you
just said.
My problem was, of course, aligning the obverse
with the reverse, whether or not we should have a
special reverse for each tribe, or whether we were
going to go with a common reverse, such as CTR05, for instance.
And I think the discussion, I missed out on that
discussion. But I was going to say that my intent
would be to honor the tribes in the manner that
they see fit, and that would also create a beautiful
design. So I'm not certain a common reverse is
going to do that. I think perhaps I might be
mimicking what has previously been said.
Chair Marks: No. Thank you, Michael. Thank you.
Michael Olson.
Member Olson: What about having a common
obverse? The obverse on the Navajo coin clearly
shows two servicemen speaking on a radio.
It would take very little to modify that. It would
simply be a name change for each nation or tribe.
And then we could take a look at some, as we had
discussed before.
A lot of these obverses look like reverses, and
reverses look like obverses. I think there would be a
lot of material there that we could use as a reverse,
that we've already been presented with.
Chair Marks: Okay. I think we have a comment -Ms. Allen: This is Judy Allen, from Choctaw Nation.
As I mentioned earlier, the Choctaws were the Code
Talkers of World War I. The Navajos, the famed
wind talkers, we hold them in high regard.
But they were the World War II Code Talkers. And

122
the uniforms and their appearance is far from what
the World War I Code Talkers were. And so we
would highly object to that.
Member Moran: Gary, that went to the heart of my
questions, where there were some of the tribes of
the 22 that were strictly one war or the other.
I think there is one theme up there that handles
that situation with both World War I and World War
II. That's Number 10. Either that, or we're going to
end with two Code Talker obverses, one for World
War I and one for World War II.
One way or the other. I don't really care if we have
two that are specific to the two wars, or one. But I
wouldn't want to go more than that. Because we're
going to end up with how many versions of Code
Talkers for the obverse.
Member Olson: Is your tribe the only one that
provided service in World War I? Okay.
Member Scarinci: Can I ask how many tribes
provided, how many World War I tribes and how
many World War II tribes?
Ms. Birdsong: We actually didn't break it down by
World War I and World War II. I can look up that
information and get it to you really quick.
Member Scarinci: If we designed a World War I
design, and used the one on the Navajo Code
Talkers for the World War II design, and then
changed the edge, and the reverse would be unique
to the tribe. Would that work? Or would that be
offensive to anyone?
Mr. Harrigal: Donald, we would have to reach out to
every tribe. And we have 21 tribes identified right
now. And two we can't find any living members yet.
So we'd have to complete that process to assure
that we have equity across all 21 tribes.
Member Scarinci: You see where I'm going here?

123
You could potentially take the Navajo obverse and
make that your generic World War II obverse. And
then have a generic World War I obverse. And then
use the individual reverses.
Member Wastweet: Don, If I could weigh in. If we
did that, and it's not a bad idea, we'd have to
change the name on each one.
Member Scarinci: Correct.
Member Wastweet: So we're cutting a die anyway.
Member Scarinci: Correct.
Member Wastweet: So that's the majority of our
expense. We might as well have fresh designs for
each one.
Ms. Birdsong: Can I add also, some of the tribes
were in both wars. So if we have a reverse with
World War I and World War II, we still wouldn't -Chair Marks: Thank you for that comment. You
know what, I want to bring our idea back to where
we were going here a short time ago.
And that is to use the Navajo medal as our pattern.
And come up with an image on both obverse and
reverse that is unique to each of the tribes to be
honored.
And, you know, maybe if we need to identify,
maybe it, I don't know. I'll skip that comment.
Anyway, are there other comments before we move
to the motion?
Okay, the motion is to table the Code Talkers with,
I'm going to add, tell me if I'm right, Heidi, with the
instructions as we've discussed here.
Member Wastweet: The instructions?
Chair Marks: Yes. As far as the Navajo being our -Member Wastweet: I think that's a separate motion.

124
Chair Marks: Okay.
Member Jansen: And so that when we meet again
we have structured art to look at, to make a
decision and go.
Chair Marks: Okay. We can do this in two motions.
Member Jansen: You can do it in two motions.
Chair Marks: We'll do it in two motions. I know, that
will make it simpler.
Member Jansen: That's what I'm sensitive to, is that
we don't just let it lay on the table for two months.
And then here we are again.
Chair Marks: Right. So the motion is simply to table
the consideration that was provided to us for this
meeting -Member Wastweet: Can we say for a restructuring?
Chair Marks: Pardon?
Member Wastweet: Can we say table it for a
restructuring.
Chair Marks: Okay. Tabling it for a restructuring.
So, I'm going to ask for all those in favor, please
raise your hand.
Member Bugeja: I'm saying, aye.
Chair Marks: Seven in favor. Opposed? Erik did you
vote? Okay, abstention. So seven yes, one
abstention. The motion does carry. So then we need
a second motion. I think, Donald, you summed it up
very well. Would you mind putting that in motion
form?
Member Scarinci: To develop an obverse and a
reverse.
Chair Marks: You kind of keyed off of the Navajo.
Member Scarinci: Right. We use the Navajo --

125
Member Jansen: No, that's not what you were
saying.
Member Scarinci: What was I saying?
Chair Marks: Your initial comment was that if the
Navajo had this sort of a pattern, where they had
their tribal symbol on one side, and they had an
image unique to their involvement as Code Talkers.
Member Scarinci: Right.
Chair Marks: Just like the Navajo, then it was equal
Member Scarinci: Right. As long as it -Chair Marks: -- to treat all the tribes the same.
Member Scarinci: What you want at the end of this,
however you do it, is you want the whole series of
these things, including this one, to all, you know, at
least look as if -Because they are, in the world of numismatics, they
are contemporaneous. I mean, in a few years, they
are contemporaneous.
So you want for all time it to always look that this
was always contemporaneous. That all of the tribes,
you know, had a design.
And that the Navajo Code Talker won't stick out.
Like, we did this first, and then as an afterthought
we're doing everybody else.
Chair Marks: Right. We're
consideration to all the tribes.

giving

the

same

Member Scarinci: Correct. And in the world of
numismatics a few years is nothing. It's
meaningless.
Chair Marks: Right. Okay, so -Member Jansen: So the same works, but you've got
to be distinguishing between World Wars I and II.

126
Chair Marks: That can be taken into consideration.
When we treat each tribe uniquely, each design can
take that fact into consideration. Whether they were
just World War I, just World War II, or both.
Member Scarinci: Right.
Chair Marks: I think that's the beauty of what we're
talking about here. We're going to take each nation
or tribe and honor them for their service on the
obverse and reverse. Just like we did for the
Navajo.
Member Jansen: So operationally, you're asking the
Mint to come forth with a reverse image set for each
obverse image set that we have today.
Member Wastweet: No.
Member Scarinci: Well
the people are on the
So we want something
one of the, I'm sorry,
Navajo.

the Code Talker, it looks like
obverse of the Code Talker.
like the Code Talker for each
we want something like the

Member Wastweet: So we're asking for each tribe to
have their own obverse and reverse, unique to
them, based on the Navajo medal.
Chair Marks: Okay.
Member Scarinci: Correct. That's the motion. To
develop, you know, to give us individual designs of
obverse and reverse for each of the tribes, based on
the template of the Navajo Code Talker medal.
Chair Marks: Okay. Is that clear to everyone?
Member Jansen: I think it is.
Chair Marks: Okay. I'm hoping we don't have to
have any more discussion on this. Unless someone Member Wastweet: I want to --

127
Chair Marks: -- feels like they really got to say
something.
Member Jansen: I think it's important, because this
is going to draw the line between what we're asking
the Mint to do.
Chair Marks: Okay. Go ahead.
Member Jansen: Seven tribes, yes.
Member Scarinci: Twenty-one.
Member Wastweet: Twenty-one.
Member Scarinci: Twenty-one total.
Member Jansen: Excuse me, in our book today were
seven. I think that's right. My point is this. Are we
asking the Mint to develop half a dozen for each of
those 21? Or seven to start with, along side the
obverses we already have.
Chair Marks: I think there's eight tribes we're
considering today.
Member Jansen: Okay, fine. Then eight alongside.
Or are we willing to short circuit this, so that there
are one or two pieces of art that the artist can wrap
the appropriate tribe around, a la the Navajo
medal? So that when they come to -- I'm just trying
to understand what we're asking the Mint do to.
Chair Marks: We heard the objection from one of
the tribal
representatives that
the Navajo
representation is a World War II.
Member Jansen: Yes, yes. I'm clear with that. I'm
clear with that.
Member Wastweet: Can I try to clarify?
Member Jansen: So you want a half a dozen designs
for each of the tribes, applicable to their status as a
World War I, a World War II, or both, whichever is
appropriate.

128
Chair Marks: Whatever is unique to each tribe.
Member Scarinci: Whatever is unique to each tribe.
And I think at the end, the bottom line here is,
we're all going to chip in for the nicest box of
chocolate and hand it to Christy. And it's going to be
a real nice box of chocolate.
Member Jansen: Donald,
message, thank you.

you

understood

my

Member Wastweet: Can I offer some clarification?
Chair Marks: Please.
Member Wastweet: As we have it now, the obverses
that are presented to us. We have very little choice.
They're really just variations of the same thing.
So I'm not expecting them to go back to the board
and give us six unique designs for then each tribe. I
think that's asking a lot.
And the tribes have very specific ideas of what they
want, as they have presented to us today. They
have specific needs and symbology that they want
to stick to. And I think we all respect that.
We're not asking for a lot of variation. But we are
asking for the respect of each individual tribe. And
when we say pattern it after the Navajo medal, we
don't mean that each tribe has to show a soldier on
the front. It can be an image of their choice.
We're just saying let's make the obverse look like
it's an obverse. And then use something like their
seal as their reverse, as the Navajo does. Is that
more clear?
Chair Marks: Are we clear? I'm seeing Michael
Moran shake his head. Is there any more
discussion? Okay. Then the motion is, and that
motion was by Donald. I'm sorry, did we have a
second on that?
Member Wastweet: I'll second.

129
Chair Marks: Heidi's the second.
Member Jansen: Can you read it again?
Chair Marks: What?
Member Jansen: Can you read the motion?
Chair Marks: Yes, I'm going to.
Member Jansen: Thank you.
Chair Marks: To develop individual designs, obverse
and reverse, for each tribe, based on the pattern
established with the Navajo Code Talker medal. And
I think we've put enough on the record here, where
I think the Mint can go back and look at that.
I think we've stated it several times. We've gone off
a couple of different directions. But we've come
back to the same idea. That we want to focus on
this Navajo medal as the pattern.
Member Wastweet: And I'm getting nods
agreement from the stakeholders behind me.

of

Chair Marks: Okay. All right. So believing there's no
further discussion, I'll ask all those in favor of the
motion to please raise their hand.
Member Bugeja: Aye.
Chair Marks: It looks like we have a unanimous
vote, eight to zero. So the motion carries.
Member Scarinci: This isn't going to cut it.
Chair Marks: No. No, it's not. So I want to thank the
representatives of the tribes here today. And thank
you for bearing with us through this process.
Ultimately I hope we can get these medals to the
place where we all feel good about them and their
honoring to the service of your tribal members.
Thank you.
Okay. At this point, this takes us on our agenda

130
down to review and discussion of our 2013 First
Spouse research backgrounder. And I'm going to
look to our committee historian for his input on this.
Review and Discussion of 2013 First Spouse
Research Backgrounder
Member Ross: Yes. I'd just like to make a motion on
considering the narrative, that we table it until the
next meeting. So that we can give time for some
historical research about the narrative which we
were presented.
My copy arrived last night. That doesn't usually
happen. It usually comes in time to do some
research. We think there's interpretive flaws that
we'd like to point out. But I'd rather do that after
some careful consideration. So I'm making a motion
that we table this to the next meeting.
Chair Marks: Okay. So Mike Ross motions to table,
based on a lack of time to study the material
provided to us. Is there a second?
Member Olson: Right here.
Chair Marks: Okay. Mike Olson seconds the motion.
Is there any discussion?
Member Scarinci: I just want to say, you know, I'd
rather get the -- I'm in favor of the motion. But I
just want to say that this is another very positive
change here.
I mean, we have been brought into the narrative at
the earliest possible stage. And, you know, this is a
very good thing. And really something we've been
wanting to have happen for a long, long time.
So the fact that we got it. And now we have really
enough time really to participate in the narrative,
which is what the artist will use to do the coin.
We're now doing something very, very meaningful.
And I appreciate that, and I think we all do.
Member Ross: Yes. I would agree with that. We just

131
need time to consider the materials though.
Chair Marks: Yes. The process is right. The process
is very inclusive and helpful to our process that we
need to go through. It helps make us owners in
what comes out on the other end, which I think is a
positive also.
And it reduces maybe conflicts at the back end. So I
think it's all really good. And there's really no
message back to the Mint, other than just didn't
have enough time.
Member Scarinci: The message is, thank you.
Chair Marks: Yes. Thank you, but we need some
more time.
Mr. Harrigal: No, we definitely understand that,
Gary. You know, this was one of those items as the
CCAC wanted to get more involved earlier in the
process, that we felt that with our schedule, if we
don't make it for this meeting, we're off for another
two months.
And we're really pushed against the time line for
establishing those medals for next year. So we
wanted to get it on this agenda, even though I
apologize, it's rough.
And I realize that, to give you folks time to come
back in your minutes, your recommendation on your
research, where we can better point the narratives
to.
Chair Marks: I think it will be healthy for the entire
process. So thank you for brining that forward to us.
And like Donald says, it's a real positive. So, thank
you.
Okay. So we have a motion on the table to table our
First Spouse narratives until our next meeting,
which I'm assuming is going to be in April. So is
there any discussion? All those in favor, please raise
your hand.

132
Member Jansen: Unanimous.
Chair Marks: Okay, Michael Bugeja, are you still on
the line?
Member Bugeja: I still am, and I'm for the motion.
Chair Marks: You're for the motion? Okay. So that's
a eight zero vote, unanimous. And the motion
carries. So at this point we've gone through the
items on our agenda. Are there any final comments
from the members?
Member Scarinci: I have an item for a to do, an
action item for Greg actually. We had talked about
this before. But could you, whatever is necessary to
draft, you know, in terms of a by-law or change,
that would allow us to meet telephonically.
So that, you know, perhaps if we're going to be
meeting once every two months, it wouldn't be a
bad idea, especially in a situation like this, to have a
meeting that's either Skype or telephonic. Skype
would be ideal, because we could do everything on
skype Member Bugeja: Absolutely -Member Scarinci: -- that we can do here, except
interact with each other. And if we could amend the
by-laws to allow that, so that we can call meetings
and participate wherever we are, then we can meet
a little more frequently.
And not, you know, not have the, because now the
pressure is, you know, we're not meeting for
another two months. Well we don't have to. We
could meet sooner and it wouldn't cost anything.
Mr. Weinman: Do you envision meeting under
certain circumstances, depending on what's on the
agenda? Or just regardless of what's on the
agenda?
Member Scarinci: I think if we could meet if you
have anything for us to do. You know, where you

133
feel in between meetings, if we're going to look to
meet every two months, but yet you have
something that's pressing, or something like
narratives. We can cover narratives telephonically.
And we can all actually we're in a better position to
do that telephonically, because we can all be by our
computers. And we can all have a very meaningful,
almost like a work session, you know.
A roll up the sleeves work session on narratives, or
any clean up items that come, like from a meeting
like today, that maybe we could get something done
in a month.
Chair Marks: I think the idea of narratives is fine
idea for the telephonic or the skype. I would caution
us in the visual, that if we do that on a telephonic or
skype basis, that would be the exception rather
than the rule. Or the regular as compared to the
irregular.
Because with the visual, I think there's the
intangible human element of interrelating with each
other when you're physically in the same space.
Mr. Weinman: Right.
Chair Marks: When you share that space, and I
mean, it's a fact that human beings probably
communicate more beyond their words, than their
words.
And I'm afraid that we lose some of that when we're
separated by phone lines. So I think it's a fine idea,
particularly for narratives and that sort of thing,
that works fine. But for the visuals, like today -Member Scarinci: Oh, this meeting would have been
impossible -Chair Marks: This would have been impossible.
Member Scarinci: But I remember the times when
they would call us in under the old days. In the old
days they would call us in for one Congressional

134
Gold Medal, you know, because we
interfere with their production schedule.

couldn't

And there was one Congressional Gold Medal, they
would drag us all in from all over the place to give
us, you know, two or three versions of a design on
something.
I mean, that really irritated me. Because, you know,
this is a two day commitment for me, and I'm close.
I'm the easiest guy, I'm the closest guy here. So for
all of you, it's traumatic.
And something like that we could have done, you
know, if we were on skype and we had one medal,
or one simple thing to do, we could do that.
If we have narratives to do, we don't have to wait
for the meeting, when we're all tired, doing
narratives. We can have that telephonically.
Chair Marks: It's true.
Member Scarinci: So there would be good uses for
it, if we could amend the, if we could allow it.
Mr. Weinman: I'll discuss it with the liaison and the
Director, Deputy Director.
Adjournment
Chair Marks: Thank you. And are there any other
closing comments? Okay. Hearing none, I want to
thank you all for working through all of our
processes today.
I think it was a good meeting, although it was a
little disjointed at places. And I apologize for that.
But that's kind of where the course of our dealings
led us. So until we meet again I wish you safety and
happiness in all that you do. And now we are
adjourned.
(Whereupon, the meeting in the above-entitled
matter adjourned at 4:05 p.m.)