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Capital Reporting Company
CCAC Public Meeting, 2/16/2016

CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE
TELEPHONIC
PUBLIC MEETING

Tuesday, February 16, 2016
1:00 p.m.

United States Mint
8th Floor Boardroom
801 9th Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C.

Reported by:

20220

Michael Farkas,
Capital Reporting Company

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A P P E A R A N C E S

Mary Lannin, CCAC Chair
April Stafford, Design Management
Greg Weinman, Esq.
Michael Moran
Jeanne Stevens-Sollman
Thomas Uram
Steven Roach
Dennis Tucker
Heidi Wastweet
Robert Hoge
Dr. Herman Viola

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C O N T E N T S
Agenda Items
Welcome and Call to Order
Mary Lannin

4

Discussion of Letter and Minutes
From Previous Meeting
Mary Lannin

9

Review and discuss candidate designs
For the 2017 America the Beautiful
Quarters Program - Effigy Mounds
National Park
April Stafford

9

Review and discuss candidate designs
For the 2017 America the Beautiful
Quarters Program - Ellis Island
(Statue of Liberty National Monument)
April Stafford

33

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P R O C E E D I N G S
WELCOME AND CALL TO ORDER
MS. LANNIN:

Good afternoon.

I call this to

order, this Telephone Public Meeting of the Citizens
Coinage Advisory Committee for Tuesday, February 16,
2016.
The members of the committee on the phone
are: Michael Moran, Jeanne Stevens-Sollman, Thomas
Uram.

And the members who are in attendance are

myself, Mary Lannin, Steven Roach, Dennis Tucker.

And

we are waiting to hear from Heidi and we are waiting
to hear from Robert and Dr. Viola is here.
Donald Scarinci is not able to participate
and Eric Hansen is not able to participate today.
The first order of business is to recognize
the newly appointed members of the Citizens Coinage
Advisory Committee.

And they are in attendance with

us here today at the Mint.
Steve Roach is the newest member
representing interest of the general public.

He is a

numismatic journalist who served as editor in chief at
Coin World, the world's largest coin hobby

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publication.

He holds a BA in Art History and

Organizational Studies from the University of Michigan
and has a JD from Ohio State University.

After

working as a rare coin specialist at Heritage Coin
Galleries in Dallas, Texas, Mr. Roach practiced law,
but he later returned to Heritage to serve as Director
of the firm's trust and estates department.

After a

stint at Christie's in New York City as a specialist
in 19th Century European Paintings department Mr.
Roach reconnected with his love of coins by returning
to the Midwest to lead the staff at Coin World first
as associate editor and later as editor in chief.
So welcome Steve.
Dennis Tucker is a new member specially
qualified in numismatics.

Dennis is a publisher of

Whitman Publishing, the largest numismatic publishing
firm in the United States.

While at Whitman Mr.

Tucker has published eleven editions of the guidebook
United States Coins popularly known as the red book
long considered one of the most authoritative coin
price sources.

Mr. Tucker has a degree in Political

Science and is a published author and editor in the

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fields of numismatics, banking and financial history,
the American presidency, U.S. Military history and
other non-fiction topics.

His most recent book

American Gold and Silver, U.S. Mint Collector and
Investor Coins and Metals Bicentennial to Date debuted
this summer and I believe it is actually for sale
beginning next Tuesday, February 23.
And I would also be remiss about saying that
Dennis is also the publisher of Mike Moran's new book
which is also available the 23rd of February called
1849 the Philadelphia Mint Strikes Gold.

So we have

quite a few authors here.
Welcome gentlemen.
Today during our meeting the CCAC will
consider the following items:

Review and discuss new

candidate designs for the 2017 America the Beautiful
Quarters Program for Effigy Mounds National Monument
as well as Ellis Island, the Statue of Liberty
National Monument.
Before we begin our proceedings are there
members of the press in attendance.

Please let us

know.

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MR. UNSER:

Mike Unser from Coin News.

MS. LANNIN:

Hello Michael.

MR. UNSER: Good morning.
MS. LANNIN:

That's it.

Okay.

The first item -MR. WEINMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

Madam Chair.
I'm sorry.

MR. WEINMAN:

Could you take the roll on the

phone please just to confirm which members are on.
MS. LANNIN:

All right.

Which members are

on the phone please; could you announce yourselves?
MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:

This is Heidi.

MR. HOGE:

Heidi, nice to hear you.
Robert Hoge.

MS. LANNIN:

Robert, nice to hear you.

Jeanne do you want to just say you are here
again.
MS. STAFFORD:
MS. LANNIN:

She might be muted.
She might be muted.

Okay.

how about Mr. Moran and Mr. Uram?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Hello.

MR. URAM: Present.

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And

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MS. LANNIN: Okay.

And Jeanne you are here?

And Michael you are here?
MR. MORAN:

Yes.

MS. LANNIN:

Thank you so much.

So the only

members not participating are Don Scarinci -MR WEINMAN:

Check the press again please.

MS. LANNIN:

Could we check the members of

the press again please.

I have Mike Unser.

MR. GILKES:

Paul Gilkes from Coin World.

MS. LANNIN:

Paul Gilkes.

MR. HARPER: Dave Harper, Numismatic News.
MR. HOLMES:

Dan Holmes, Coin Update.

MR. MORTON:

Joe Morton here with Omaha.

MS. STAFFORD:

Can the last person who gave

their name please repeat that a little slower.
MR. MORTON:

Sure, it's Joe or Joseph

Morton; that is M as in Mary O-R-T-O-N.
MS. STAFFORD:

Thank you, sir, I appreciate

it.
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. WEINMAN:

Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Please be seated.

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DISCUSSION OF LETTER AND MINUTES FROM PREVIOUS MEETING
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

The first item on our

agenda is acceptance to the letters to the secretary
and the minutes from our previous meeting.

Those

items were included in the meeting binders for members
to review.
Are there any comments on either document?
Hearing none I move to approve the minutes
and the secretary's letters; is there a second?
MR. MORAN:
MS. LANNIN:

Moran seconds.
Thank you Michael.

For purposes of the telephone conference are
there any objections to the motion?

If not, without

objection the minutes and letters are approved.
REVIEW AND DISCUSS CANDIDATE DESIGNS FOR THE 2017
AMERICA THE BEAUTIFUL QUARTERS PROGRAM - EFFIGY MOUNDS
NATIONAL MONUMENT
MS. LANNIN:

All right.

We now turn to the

business of the Committee designs for the Effigy
Mounds National Monument.

April Stafford, Director of

the Mint's Design Management Program will present the
first portfolio for review and comment.

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MS. STAFFORD:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

And

as a reminder to our members on the phone our
transcriber has asked me to ask you to say your name
before you provide comments so that he can make sure
it is represented correctly in the transcription.

So

thank you for that in advance.
We are reviewing the United States Mint
America the Beautiful Quarters Program which is a
multi-year initiative authorized by Public Law 110456, the America’s Beautiful National Parks Quarter
Dollar Coin Act of 2008.

The act directs the United

States Mint to mint and issues 56 circulating quarter
dollars with the reverse or tail side having designs
that are emblematic of a national park or other
national site in each state, the District of Columbia
and the five U.S. territories.

The quarters are

issued sequentially each year in the order in which
the featured site was first established as a national
park or site.
We'll start with the required reverse
inscriptions.

They include the designation of the

site and the host jurisdiction, the year 2017 and the

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motto E PLURIBUS UNUM.
As a reminder candidate designs for this
year's program were first presented in October of
2015.

At the CCACs and CFAs request additional

candidate designs for Effigy Mounds and Ellis Island
have been developed.

So today we are reviewing the

revised portfolios for these sites.
First we are pleased to have with us Jim
Nepstad, Superintendent of Effigy Mounds National
Monument in Iowa.

Jim, are you with us?

MR. NEPSTAD:
MS. STAFFORD:

I am.
Very good.

Would you care to

say a few words?
MR. NEPSTAD:
for that.

Oh, I guess I wasn't prepared

But I appreciate everybody's attention to

both the old designs and the new and just to hear
people's opinion.
MS. STAFFORD:

Thank you Mr. Nepstad.

And

as with the designs that were presented in October if
you care to expound on any of your preferences or
provide information to the CCAC members just let us
know and the Madame Chair will recognize you.

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So beginning with design 01 for Iowa, Effigy
Mounds, design 01 depicts a deer in the foreground and
a view of an effigy mound in the background.
Design 02 depicts a peregrine falcon, part
of a release program in the park holding an arrowhead
with an image of a bird effigy from the Marching Bear
Mound Group.

May apple wild flowers commonly seen in

the park are featured to the left and right of the
arrowhead.

The arrowhead was incorporated as a

reference to the indigenous people credited with
building the mounds as well as to the national park
service's conservations efforts.
Design 03 depicts a young man pausing during
an exploratory hike to consider a bear mound.

The

hiker's posture signals his great respect as captioned
in the additional inscription respect for the old
ones.

May apple wild flowers and other foliage are

seen in the foreground.
Design 04 features a birds-eye view of
mounds from the Marching Bear Group and visitors seen
on the left and right of the mounds.
Designs 05 and 06 depict either a hiker or

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family visiting the mounds.
Designs 07, 08, 09, 10, 11 depict variations
on an aerial view of effigy mounds.
are part of the Marching Bear Group.

The mounds shown
I should note

that design 09 is our liaison's preferred design.
Design 12 depicts a close up view of a bear
effigy, one of many mounds that comprise the Marching
Bear Group.

Visitors can be seen in the background

with May apple wild flowers in the foreground.
Designs 13 and 14 depict a graphic
representation of the effigy mounds.
Design 15 depicts an aerial view of an
effigy mound in the shape of a bird.

This particular

mound is part of the Marching Bear Group, a collection
of mounds located in the south unit of the monument.
The additional inscription reads: Bird effigy.
Design 16 and 17 depict aerial views of
Great Bear Mound, the monument's largest mound.
Designs 18, 18A, and 18B depict variations
on an aerial view of three effigy mounds that are part
of the 15 mounds that comprise the Marching Bear
Group.

Designs 18 and 18A contain the additional

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inscription Marching Bear Group.
Design 19 features a bird effigy and a bear
effigy against a depiction of the Mississippi River as
seen from Fire Point Outlook.

Additional inscriptions

read air, water, earth, and people.
Design 20 and 21 depict hands holding earth
with a bird effigy above.

Design 21 also features the

Mississippi River in the background and mounds from
the Marching Bear Group.
Designs 22, 22A and 22B depict the
Mississippi River in the background and a bird effigy
at the top of the design.

The lower halves of the

designs feature variations of the bear effigy.

Design

22 also features the inscriptions air, water, and
land.
And finally Design 23 depicts a bird effigy
with a lush forest in the background.
Madame Chair.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, April

Michael would like to lead us off?
MR. MORAN:
MS. LANNIN:

Be happy to Mary.
All right.

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MR. MORAN:

First of all I'd like to call

everybody's attention to the sketch on 02, not the
remission of the quarter but just the sketch of the
falcon/peregrine falcon.

That is the best wild life

sketch I think I've seen in about four and a half
years on the committee.
examples.

We've seen some good

We've also seen bad ones.

But whoever the

artist is that did this needs to be encouraged and
complimented on an excellent depiction.
Now that being said I'm not going to make a
mistake by talking about design 01 with the deer in
the foreground, that will get me in trouble with Heidi
and I do not want to do that.

But I'm going to cast

my vote for number 02 simply because I think it is the
cleanest presentation that will be recognizable on a
quarter.
space.

I think it makes good use of the negative
I also think it does past, present, and future

in terms of the past being an arrowhead with effigy
set over on top of it, the present being May apples
and the future being the peregrine falcon program to
reinstate the falcon in the area.
quarter.

I just like the

I know that there's maybe de-emphasis in

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terms of the effigy mounds but I think the effigy
mounds are very problematic when you try and depict
them accurately on a quarter as we saw the last set.
My support goes to number 02, Mary.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you so much Michael.

Robert, are you with us?
MR. HOGE:

Yes, hello.

MS. LANNIN: Hello.
MR. HOGE:

These things, these effigy mounds

are probably among the most difficult subjects for any
of the America the Beautiful Quarters Program images I
think.

I've had trouble trying to make a selection

but primarily for me I actually came up with the idea
that number 09 was my preference even before I knew
that was that of the liaison.

So I think it is

important to show the scale of the effigy mound.
one does it.

That

Actually I like the idea of including a

small human figure as a matter of scale but I think I
would go with the committee's preference of number 09.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Robert.

Jeanne, would you like to add your voice to
this?

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MS STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Yes, thank you, Mary.

I have to agree with Robert and Michael that
this is a hugely difficult park to illustrate and I
want to commend the artists who resubmitted and worked
really hard to take into consideration our comments
from our last meeting in October.

However I'm going

to have to go with the effigy mounds themselves.
learning a lot about this particular park.
know about this.

I am

I didn't

And so I am intrigued and hopeful

that the park is represented by what it is and those
are the mounds.

I liked the particular designs that

show the scale of the mounds which is the preferred
number 09.
But I also like number 07 where we have a
little bit more of a contemporary cast on what the
mounds are and that being the trees that aren't -- you
know they are seen from above.

So where 08 and 09 we

see the prospective of going into fields and forests I
think it is pretty wonderful those two attract my
attention or actually those three: 07, 08, and 09.
I'm going to cast my vote, it is very hard,
it is between 07 and 09.

07 being more contemporary,

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09 depicting what the park really is.
agree with Robert.

And I also

I sort of chose that before I knew

it was the preferred image.
Thank you, Madame Chairman.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Jeanne.

Tom?
MR. URAM:

Sure.

Thank you Madame Chairman.

I am leaning also towards Mike's comments regarding
how clean number 02 is and the falcon and you know it
has the icon of the state park in there as well as the
mound.

And I think it would really be a very clean

design and representation of what's trying to be
portrayed here.

So my first vote will also be for

number 02.
In respect to Jim and the committee, his
committee regarding their thoughts here on number 09
I'm just concerned again going back to our original
discussion in October how this is going to really
look, the size it would be as a quarter.

I know that

we added the trees in the top there and tried to put
some ground to help accentuate this foreground but I
think when it comes down to striking and size we are

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still going to lose those images.
So, therefore, I'm going to lean more
towards number 02 is my first choice then the others.
And I really don't care for the different people in
the park.

I think that keeping it natural and keeping

the human aspect out of it I think adds something to
the design as well.

So I'm not really in favor of

some of the ones that have, even though they are nice
designs and represent people coming through the park I
think that it is just a little too much on this
quarter.
So summation number 02 is what I'm going to
go with.

With respect to Jim and the committee I'll

give a vote or so to their choice but weighing it
towards number 02.
Thank you, Madame Chairman.
MS. LANNIN:
Heidi?

Thanks so much, Tom.

Heidi?

MR. WEINMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

Heidi, are you there?
Heidi, are you here?

While we are waiting for Heidi, Herman would
you like to speak about it?

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MR. VIOLA:

Okay.

Thank you.

First I want to say how important it is that
we have these quarters.

I'm not sure you are all

aware the State of Wisconsin just introduced
legislation to take away the protection for their
mounds in Wisconsin because they are in the way of
development and considering that the mounds are really
right across the river from Effigy Mounds.

So I think

the timing of this quarter could not be more
important.
There is a great deal of consternation in
Wisconsin.

The American Indians are holding

demonstrations at the courthouse and the legislature
and I thought to myself this is an answer to prayer.
Once you get these out there people are going to see
how important they are.
And so in Wisconsin what they are saying is
that if they can show that there are burial remains in
the mounds then the state or the historical society
can try to protect them.

But it is very hard to prove

there are burial mounds in there and a lot of them
have disintegrated over time.

So you use electronic

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devices.
So having said that I think we want to make
sure that people realize what these mounds look like.
And so I really like the idea of showing some of these
kind of in perspective.

And so there are some very

interesting ones and I take the point that people look
too small when you put them into these coins.

So I

guess I would say I'd go with number 09 since that is
what the folks there want anyhow and it certainly
gives you that perspective.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Thank you, Herman.

Heidi, are you here?
MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:

I'm here.
Okay.

Would you like to go

next please?
MS. WASTWEET:

Yes.

Thank you.

make my comment I have a question.

Before I

As there is some

preference for design number 09 I'm struggling to see
the difference between design number 09 and design
number 08 other than design number 09 is drawn a
little darker but the design itself to me looks alike.
So can someone comment on that?

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MS. STAFFORD:

No, you are correct.

Heidi

actually let me ask, Don Everhart are you on the line?
MR. EVERHART:

I am.

MS. STAFFORD:

So I don't know if you heard

the question from Heidi.

Design 08 and 09 we know to

be very similar but did you want to comment about how
in 09 the borders of the mounds were accentuated?
MR. EVERHART:

Yeah.

Not only were the

borders accentuated but I think the actual mounds were
beefed up a little bit to give them a little bit more
presence than what they had on number 08.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Thank you, Don.

Heidi, does that answer your question?
MS. WASTWEET:

I suppose.

It still seems to

me like that is a sculpting difference rather than a
design difference and for future reference I don't
think that we need to have seen that in our packet.

I

think that we could have simplified with just one.
But that is neither here nor there.
MS. STAFFORD:
agree with you Heidi.

I agree.

This is April.

I

And if this had been the first

time we'd presented we would have only included the

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latter but because so many comments that we received
from both the CCAC as well as the CFA was about
improving upon the shape of the mounds.

We just

wanted to kind of bring both of those into view so you
could see how the artist went back to that task.
MS. WASTWEET:
against the grain here.

Okay.

So I'm going to go

I don't think the subject was

as difficult as we are making it out to be.

It is

difficult because the way these are designed many of
them are just not going to show up on a coin as well
as they are in the drawings.

So I am going to put all

of my support behind design number 02.
is a beautiful, beautiful design.
composed.

It is well drawn.

I think this

It is well

It encompasses not only

the mounds but the other aspects of the park.

And I

just don't think we could have asked for anything more
than design number 02.

And I am going to put all of

my support behind that design.

And I'm going to give

zero points to all the other designs as they I think
are all posing some problems as a coin.
Thank you.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you very much, Heidi.

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Dennis, are you ready for your first
discussion?
MR. TUCKER:

Yes, yes, I am.

And first of

all I'd like to thank you for the welcome.

I'm very

happy to be here.
I respect what Tom says about the human
figures in the different designs.

In my opinion the

designs with a human element are actually the most
engaging.

I think that they personalize a coin design

for the viewer and they help you identify with it and
maybe even picture yourself at this national site and
interacting with it.

If you've been to the national

site then the coin serves as a memento and if not, it
encourages your engagement with it.
For that reason I like number 03.

I think

it addresses some of the issues of scale and
perspective that has been discussed.
has a good legend or inscription.
here respect for the old ones.

I also think it

I like the motto

And the fact is that

these mounds are made by humans as much as they have
to do with animals.
For that reason I also like 20 and 21 which

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show a person's hands with the earth that are
connected with the effigies above them.
My favorite is number 03.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Dennis.

Steve you're next.
MR. ROACH:

Thank you Madame Chairman.

I'd

first like to express just my gratitude to have an
opportunity to work with the CCAC, the Mint, the
members on the CCAC and I am excited to come up with
some great coin designs over the next few years.

So

thank you.
I echo what Mike and Tom said in expressing
appreciation for design number 02.
design.

It is a gorgeous

But I don't get the effigy mounds.

When I

look at a coin design, especially one that has to play
for a quarter reverse I want something that will spark
curiosity.

It is going to make me curious about what

are these effigy mounds.
With design number 02 the concept of the
effigy mound almost seems to be an afterthought.

And

I know it is a challenge to convey these mounds that
are low to the ground on a coin.

But I'd be curious

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to see the Mint's response to that challenge.
And so I vote for design number 09.
MS. LANNIN:
Okay.

Thank you.

Last but not least I hope.

I'd like

to talk about something that no one has talked about
yet, designs number 13 and 14 conveys to me a very
clean way to show prehistoric art from the viewpoint
that the makers I believe intended us to see it which
is an aerial view.
not consistent.

It forms its own pattern.

It is

It's human, it is different enough

and I think that my criteria is if a coin was put on a
table in front of me, would I pick that up.

And I

think in this instance I would be intrigued enough
with this design to pick it up and try to figure out
what it is.

So I am a strong proponent of both 13 and

14.
Don, I would like to ask you if the various
techniques that could be used for frosting, et cetera
and so forth, would it have to be uniform or could
some of the animals be frosted at different levels.
MR. EVERHART:

Mary, are you asking me, this

is Don Everhart?

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MS. LANNIN: Yes, I am, Don.

I'm sorry I

should have said Everhart.
MR. EVERHART:

Yeah.

I am having a hard

time hearing a little bit some of the enunciation
because of this blackberry music.
would be a possibility.

But anyway that

I mean you could have

different textures and different shades on different
animals to differentiate them.
one uniform.

Or you could just have

I guess it would depend on which design

of these would be chosen.
MS. LANNIN:

Well, it seems to me --

MR. EVERHART:
MS. LANNIN:

But I like that idea.
Yeah number 14 it seems to me

at least the way that I'm looking at it would be the
effigies themselves would actually be frosted.

So I

thought with different levels of frosting for the
animals that that could add a more threedimensionality to it.
MR. EVERHART:

That is a good point.

MR. ANTONUCCI:
MS. LANNIN:

This is Steve.

Hey, Steve.

MR. ANTONUCCI:

We had stopped the practice

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over a year ago a decision was made on the quarters we
weren't going to be going with multiple tones of
frosting because of the manufacturing issues.

What we

can do though is certainly a level of frosting add
extra to that to get some differentiation there.

But

it would not be full levels of razor frosting detail.
Does that answer --?
MS. LANNIN:

There would be some frosting

but not -MS. STAFFORD:

There would be a

differentiation but he is just kind of clarifying the
technique that would -MS. LANNIN:
answering that.

All right.

Well, thank you for

All right.

MR. MORAN:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. MORAN:

Mary, Mary, can I -Yes.
-- make a comment, please.

This

is Mike Moran.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. MORAN:

Yes.
-- before while they were doing

these quarters for the general public or for the
collectors, we get off on this path of frosting and

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degrees of frosting but I am reminded of the Blue
Ridge Park quarter where we had the highway going down
the center and it might have been okay in proof but it
was an absolute failure as a circulating quarter.

You

can't tell what it is either when you put your glasses
on.

And I'm afraid we are going to get into this with

these mounds.

I don't think you can differentiate as

Heidi pointed out between 08 and 09 when you start to
engrave it on quarter and spit out a half billion or
billion of them.
there.

You just can't put the relief in

And while it is important that we consider

frosting and the collecting bargain we also have to
understand that a bunch of people are going to pick
these things up and they are not going to have very
positive thoughts about some of these effigies if we
go with number 8 or number 9 and the perspective of a
person or the trees in the background it is going to
get lost.
these.

And that is my trouble with going with

And I think that's the trouble the committee

had the first time around in choosing one of these
effigies.

It just reminds me of all the wrong things

and I don't want to say that but while they look like

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mounds to the unpracticed eye they are going to look
like something else.
MS. LANNIN:

All right.

MS WASTWEET:
those comments.

This is Heidi.

I agree with

And I also want to clarify we are

doing this in the larger format also; is that correct?
MS. STAFFORD:

Yes, the five ounce silver,

yes.
MS.

WASTWEET:

Thank you, April.

So

considering this is going to be made in two sizes what
we are really looking for is a design that works well
in a small shot of quarter and the larger corrector
version as well and designs 13 and 14 I think don't
meet that criteria.

I think that they would be more

attractive as the actual quarter but doesn't quite
have enough I think to create that definite interest
in the larger format as I think design number 02 would
look beautiful in that larger format and I think we
would have much more sales of the large one if we went
with design number 02.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Heidi.

Does anybody else have further discussion

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after hearing what fellow committee members have said?
Okay.

Why don't we begin our voting

procedure and we'll take -MS. STAFFORD:

If you would like I can start

going through the Ellis Island designs while -MR. WEINMAN:

For those of you on the phone

if you could please fill out the ballot that I gave
you and send it, email it to me.

And for those of you

that are in the room I think everybody in the room now
has one to fill out.

So once again if you are on the

phone please go ahead, rate zero, one, two, three for
each design and email it back to me.

And we will

start the process of compilation here.
MS. STAFFORD:

Madame Chair would you like

me to go through the designs and the descriptions
while they're voting or would you like to take a small
break.
MS. LANNIN: I'd like to take a small break
if you don't mind, April.

There are enough

differences in what we've chosen that maybe people
want to relook at that.

So we will take a break for

five minutes while we are voting and begin again.

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(WHEREUPON, a brief recess was taken.)
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

It is 1:37.

Our five

minute break is over.
And while Greg is still tallying our votes
on Effigy Mounds I would like to ask April to read
about our second -MR. WEINMAN:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. WEINMAN:

Real quickly -I'm sorry Greg.
From those of you on the phone

I'm still missing ballots from Heidi, Tom, and Jeanne.
MS. LANNIN:

Can you all hear that?

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. WEINMAN:

Yes.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. WEINMAN:

Are you missing mine?

This is Jeanne.

Did you send it to my email

address gweiman?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes, Greg Weinman.
MR. WEINMAN: gweinman@usmint. -MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Yes.

MR. WEINMAN: gweinman@usmint.treas.gov?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MR. WEINMAN:

Yes.

I'm going to --

You have --

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MR. MORAN:

I did the same thing.

MS. STAFFORD:

It might just be taking a

second.
MR. WEINMAN:

It may just be in transit

here.
MS. STAFFORD:
MR. WEINMAN:

Shall I go ahead?

MR. MORAN:

Go ahead.

is Mike.

If I don't get --

You all are breaking up.

This

Did you get mine?
MR. WEINMAN:

have Mr. Hoge's.

Yes, I have Mr. Moran's and I

I'm missing the others.

Do me a

favor and resend it if you don't mind.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

And Heidi and Tom if you could

resend yours that would be great.
MR. URAM:

Will do.

MS. LANNIN:
MS. WASTWEET:

Thank you.
I just texted mine because

the emails are not coming through.
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. WEINMAN:

Thanks.
This is Heidi.
If I still have trouble I'll

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come back on line and ask you.
REVIEW AND DISCUSS CANDIDATE DESIGNS FOR THE 2017
AMERICAN THE BEAUTIFUL QUARTERS PROGRAM - ELLIS ISLAND
(STATUTE OF LIBERTY NATIONAL MONUMENT)
MS. STAFFORD:

So moving on to the Ellis

Island Statue of Liberty National Monument for New
Jersey.

Unfortunately our liaison from the site is

not able to be with us today and did not provide a
preferred design from this set.

However in October

when designs were first presented for this site the
liaison indicated a variation of design 10 as a
preference.

I offer that as just a simple reminder to

the committee members.
For New Jersey designs 01, 01A, 02, 03, 03A,
04, 05, 05A, and 06 feature immigrant families
approaching Ellis Island with a mixture of hope and
uncertainty.

Elements seen in the background of the

designs are as follows:

design one the interior of

the registry room; design 02 the main immigration
building; 04 the main immigration building and the
ferry terminal, 05 and 05A the hospital building, and
design 06 the Ellis Island ferry building.

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Design 07 depicts the arrival of immigrants
to Ellis Island as they descend from a ship to the
dock in front of the main immigration depot. The new
arrivals show expressions of hopefulness at the
prospect of starting their lives in a new country.
The Ellis Island hospital is visible in the
background.
Design 08 depicts a family of European
immigrants just after they disembark the transatlantic
ship seen in the background.

The direction of the

wooden dock boards symbolizes the path that will lead
them to better lives.
Designs 09, 09A, 10 and 10A feature an
immigrant family waiting on Ellis Island hoping to be
granted entry into the United States.

Views of the

ferry building and its art deco spire or the main
immigration building can be seen in the background.
Design 11 depicts an immigrant woman
approaching Ellis Island with the hospital building in
the background.
So again our liaison verified that all our
designs were accurate and historically appropriate but

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did not make a recommendation.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, April.

Michael I'd like to pick on you again.
MR. MORAN:

Oh, thanks, Mary.

The whole

thing left me cold this time in terms of just looking
at each of the individual designs.

So I decided to

approach it from a different approach.
When I think about Ellis Island and what it
means.

I don't think about the buildings.

The

buildings are imposing, the architecture is nondescript federal.

There is no beauty to them.

So I

rule out the buildings as any symbol of Ellis Island.
I think about the generations that went
through there.

And generally my impression of my

history is that the first generations, the parents
actually did not do all that well in the new world.
They didn't have the language.
capital.

They had no money, no

It was done for their children, for the

second generation.

And that is where you saw the

success of Ellis Island in terms of America as a
melting pot.
So that being said I went back through these

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and the one that answers my concerns and my
conclusions what Ellis Island means is number 08.
then I went back and looked at it.

But

It looks like from

first blush it looks like the feet of a boy, a
teenager, his sister and his little brother.

But I'm

not sure when you look at Ernest's definition of what
he did, he calls it a family.

If it is a man in

lederhosen we are not going there.
So the other problem I have with a lot of
these is they are too busy for a quarter.

They don't

have as lot of good use of negative space here.

Again

we always have that problem; too much crammed in;
there's too much in the background.

Shading doesn't

get it when it comes to the quarter.

And to put a

building in in light shade doesn't mean much because
it is still going to stamp out and clutter the
negative space.
So I can be convinced and swayed to do
something other but at this point, at this juncture my
support goes to number 08.
MS. LANNIN:

All right.

Thank you, Michael.

Robert?

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MR. HOGE:

I was impressed with the beauty

of these drawings especially in the large format
images.

These are really spectacular.

But I have to

agree with Michael that they tend to be on the busy
side and then the size of a quarter a great deal of
that beauty is going to be lost.
I think I would probably like to go with the
preference of number 10 simply because it does have a
fair amount of negative space.

It is a little busy.

But I think the promise of the flag which would have
been important to these immigrant people is nice in
that area too.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. HOGE:

Thank you, Robert.

MS. LANNIN:

You're welcome.
Jeanne?

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
Chair.

Thank you Madame

I had trouble with our last conversation.

I

couldn't quite control my mute button so I'm hoping
you can hear me.

Am I coming --

MS. LANNIN:

We can hear you just fine.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Okay.

Good.

Thank

you very much.

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I am in agreement with Michael where I think
the thrust of this coin is about people coming to
America.

I'm not sure if it is about the buildings.

And I would like to know if the liaison has a
preference, I guess number 10 is their preference and
therefore there really is very little of a building in
that design.
I spoke to my better half who is an
immigrant and I asked him what was important to him
when he came.

And he felt the flag was really what

says America.

And I have to agree with him.

And so I'm looking at number one and number
01A where we have decidedly immigrants depicted here
in the design and we also have the flag.

The hint of

the building on number one is quite beautiful and I'm
wondering if I asked Don or Steve if this is going to
be able to be enhanced or does that become too busy in
manufacturing this coin in the large metal five ounce
silver I think it would be extremely wonderful.

In

the quarter I am not sure if number one would satisfy
our needs.
So I'm looking seriously at number 01A as it

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depicts America, it depicts immigrants coming to this
country and I think that is what we need to say about
this coin.
Number 06 also says a similar thing and we
have a building but I think there's too much
information for this small field.
Thank you.
MS. LANNIN:
Tom?

Thank you, Jeanne.

Mr. Uram?

MR. URAM:
MS. LANNIN:

Are you there?

MR. URAM:

Yes, we are.
Okay.

Sorry about that.

In looking at the designs here I kind of
agree also with Jeanne here in that I like that image
of 01A because it also looks like they are moving
forward, they are moving -- I wanted something kind of
with Ellis Island also showing like a struggle, you
know the struggle to get here, the reason for being
here, and that kind of -- the movement in that I like
a lot.

I would agree also on the building in some of

them.
I also kind of leaned toward number 7

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because that is showing a little bit of the struggle
of a lot of different types of people coming here and
it engages you into that.

It is nice that the little

girl is carrying the basket and the suitcases and
things like that.

I think that that shows a little

bit of a struggle and how what all people came over
with and so forth.
And then as it relates to number 10 I could
see, I think the importance of a flag is real, is
important, it's what was just echoed.

And I think

that for that reason I like 07 but it doesn't have
that image in there and maybe instead of the buildings
it would have been nice had the flag been waving in
the background of that instead of buildings.
would have rather seen that.

And so I

And I think it would

have looked great with a flag in the background
waving.
So with that I think I'm going to go with
number 01A with a clean image versus the one being
actually in the building.

And then number 10 as well

the preference.
I'd just like to make a comment on number

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08.

I thought it was a nice design and whatever but I

think we have the 2007 Little Rock Desegregation
Dollar Commemorative that was similar to that.

And we

also had the 2010 Veterans, Disabled Veterans for Life
which had the same type of images and so forth of
feet.

So I wanted to stay away from that.

So with

that I'll cast my vote accordingly.
Thank you, Madame Chairman.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Tom.

Heidi?
MS. WASTWEET:

Yes, hi.

I agree with Mike

and Tom's comments about design number 8.

We have

seen some similar designs with just the feet and it
feels a little repetitious with that and also if the
father is wearing shorts it is not quite working for
me either.

So I agree with those previous comments.
Now our last meeting about these when we

asked the Mint to come back and give us some more
designs one of the main things that we said is there
was a lot going on for the size of the quarter, they
were very busy.

And the new designs are also pretty

busy which was why I was so happy to see the late

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addition of number 05A, yeah, 05A.
the one that brings it home for me.

I think this is
If you have this

in front of you as opposed to design number 5 the
building has been moved away from the group of figures
and that little negative space there is really, really
important for strikeability and sculptability and
readability in the actual size.

And I think that that

balances the design very well and hits all the points.
This coin is not a coin about the history of
Ellis Island but Ellis Island as a national park.

And

when you go to Ellis Island to visit what's left there
are the buildings.

So I think the buildings are

important in this particular aspect because we are
commemorating it as a national park, not just the
history.
And then in this design we have the figures
which connect the buildings to the history.

And these

figures here in design 05A I think they encompass all
of those emotions like April said that is a mixture of
hope, anticipation and nervousness and fear.

And I

think these faces show that where design number 01 and
01A we don't see the faces and so for me it lack that

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emotion.
And artistically 05A the way it has the
father's face in profile, the mother's face is down
and then the boys face is up and the composition of
those three figures that go gracefully one into the
other.

And it incorporates the flag which as Jeanne

said is an important symbol for these immigrants not
only then but still today.
I think this design just hits the nail on
the head on all aspects.
support it.

And I am going to fully

That's it.

MS. LANNIN:

Thanks so much Heidi.

Herman?
MR. VIOLA:

Thank you.

I would have to

agree these designs all left me very cold and a couple
of reasons.
Island.

One is both my parents came through Ellis

My mother was 16 and 13 years later her

husband came, he was 17.
through.

All my aunts and uncles came

I never met my grandparents.

came separately.

The families

And growing up they always talked

about seeing that Statute of Liberty and how excited
they were and that Ellis Island was kind of a new

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world.

And as first generation people they did well

and so that the coin is really very important
symbolically to I think a lot of people.

So having

said all that as April explained why you can't have
the Statue of Liberty in there because of the conflict
over who owns Ellis Island.
So having said all that I would say that I'd
probably go myself with number 02 or I guess it is
number 01A with the flag and the people looking in the
foreground.

But I also agree with Heidi that I really

like 05A and so I'd say both of those get strong
support from me.
MR. LANNIN:

Thank you, Herman.

Dennis, you are up.
MR. TUCKER:

Well, Jeanne and Tom and others

have talked about the American flag and I strongly
feel that the coin's design needs to include the
American flag.

As famous as the architecture and the

buildings of Ellis Island are there are many viewers,
in fact, many American viewers who would not recognize
that architecture.
universal.

However the U.S. flag is

Everybody knows what that is and what it

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represents.

Without that context a lot of these

designs could really be any general scene of
immigration that could be happening anywhere.
I like number 01 because anyone who has
actually been to Ellis Island and has been inside the
registry room will recognize this.
dramatic.

It is very

It is a remarkable space and that is

something that people will recognize right away.
01A I think in some ways is not as strong
without that background of the registry room but I
also recognize that this would be an easier design to
coin.

However, I think that number 01 would be much

more remarkable and exquisite on the five ounce silver
round.
05A I think is busy for a quarter size
canvas as many of them are as we've noted.

I feel

that that element of the flag is lost in the details
here.

But I do like that design.
And number 10 I feel communicates the

immigrant experience well also focusing on the flag.
So I like that one as well.
But of all of them I would say number 01 is

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the one that really impressed me the most.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Dennis.

Steve?
MR. ROACH: I struggled with this group
because virtually every design for me had a but; I
like it except for this.

For design number 01 and 01A

I liked it but for the busyness in 01 and for 01A I
don't -- I think it is going to be a challenge to get
clearly articulated forms for the two people on the
left.

It took me a while to understand that she was

holding a baby.

And I think that is going to be

really tough on the quarter.
Heidi sold me on 05A.

I really like that

one because out of everyone it is the one that has an
expression of joy.

The child seems to be happy to be

coming to America.
And when I look at 10 I like that design for
its formal aspects but I don't get a sense that she is
very happy to be here.

And it leaves me kind of sad.

I like 08 from a formal perspective as well
but I feel like the feet motif has been done.
So I like 05A but again I'm limited a little

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bit by the fact that half of it is given to
architecture that doesn't say much and doesn't -- if I
think of an average person and how they are going to
relate to Ellis Island it is going to be about the
people and not as much the architecture.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Steve.

I have to admit that my preference initially
was 01A because I liked the use of the negative space.
It seemed to me that there is a world of possibilities
that is out there.

I understand that that would make

a better quarter than probably the five ounce and for
that I think number 01 would be the best five ounce
choice.
But Heidi really sold me on 05A, you see the
sort of the trinity of people, you see a range of
emotions, you see a building that is undoubtedly there
and would be important to the people that have visited
the park and it has got the American flag in it.
so Heidi you've convinced me completely.

And

I'm going to

go with 05A.
Thank you.
So while we are -- Greg when would you like

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to do the vote for -MR. WEINMAN:

Why don't we vote now for

Ellis Island unless there are more comments.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Does anyone else have

any other comments given what we've all had to say
this afternoon?
MR. URAM:

-- receive my ballot.

MR. WEINMAN:

I received your ballot, Tom,

yes.
So if everybody else could now please vote
for Ellis Island.
a little break.

If you don't mind why don't we take
Let me calculate that which shouldn't

take as long.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. WEINMAN:

Okay.
And then we can come back and

look at the results of both and take any motions that
you may have.
MS. LANNIN:

All right.

(WHEREUPON, a brief recess was taken.)
MS. LANNIN:

All right.

Our break is over

and I would now like to ask our Mint counsel, Greg
Weinman, to report the results of the revised Effigy

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Mounds total as well as Ellis Island National
Monument.
MR. WEINMAN:

Actually Ellis Island -- we

can -MS. LANNIN:

We can do Ellis Island first if

-MR. WEINMAN:

Why don't you go -- actually

I'm delivering -- let's let April report it out here.
MS. LANNIN:
MS. STAFFORD:

All right.

April.

Design 01 - a total of nine,

01A - 11, 02 - one, 03 and 03A - zero, design 04 - one
point, design 05 - zero, 06 - four points, 07 - one
point, design 08 - zero, 09 - two points, 09A - zero,
design 10 - 12 points, design 10A - zero, design 11 zero, and design 05A with 19 points.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you very much.

And how

are we doing for Effigy Mounds, Greg?
MR. WEINMAN:

It is ready here.

Hold on one

second.
MS. LANNIN:

All right.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON:
MS. LANNIN:

So 05A stands --

So 05A stands, yes.

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MR. WEINMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

I will read off Effigy Mounds.
Okay.

MR. WEINMAN: We're printing it out as we
speak.

Design 01 - zero, design 02 - 14, design 03 -

six, design 04 - five points, design 05 - one, design
06 - one, design 07 - two, design 08 - one, design 09
- 17, design 10 - two, design 11 - one, design 12 two, design 13 - three, design 14 - three, design 15 two, design 16 - zero, design 17 - zero, design 18 one, design 18A - two, design 18B - two, design 19 one, design 20 - three, design 21 - two, design 22 zero, design 22A - zero, design 22B - zero, design 23
- one.
MS. LANNIN:

And so out of a possible 27

votes, design number 09 in Effigy Mounds received 17
points and that was the design that was preferred by
the liaison.

Coming in a very close second was number

14 was the peregrine falcon.
And again I would like to comment.

I think

the falcon is absolutely glorious and perhaps that
artist can table that design for a future coin.
And to go back to Ellis Island again the

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winning design was number 05A.
salesperson.

Heidi was a great

And so it was the design that was

included extra in our packs that came in number one
with 19 points out of 27.
number 10.
01A.

The next closest was design

And the next closest after that was design

And design number 10 had been the preferred

design initially by the liaison.
So does anyone have any motions to make on
the designs and on the votes and anything else that
they would like to add to these two designs?

Are

there any motions?
MR. MORAN:

Mary, just one thing as a point

of clarification.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. MORAN:

Sure.
You called the peregrine falcon

design number 14; it actually was 14 votes for number
02.
MS. LANNIN:
for correcting me.

I'm sorry, did I?

Thank you

Design number 02 with 14 points

came in number two.

Did I say that right Michael?

MR. MORAN:
MS. LANNIN:

Yes, you did.
Thank you.

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So any further debate about anything?
MS. WASTWEET:

Mary?

MS. LANNIN: Yes, Jeanne.
MS. WASTWEET:

This is Jeanne. There is just

one question because we have the preferred as number
10 and -MS. LANNIN:

Which and you are speaking of -

MS. WASTWEET:

I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

I am

speaking of Ellis Island.
MS. LANNIN:
MS. WASTWEET:

Okay.
And this is the preferred

design.
MR. WEINMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

05A is the preferred.
Jeanne so just to clarify the

liaison at the site did not issue any preference for
this set.
MS. WASTWEET:
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.
For informational purposes we

reminded the committee members that a variation of 10
was their preference in October so there is not an
issue there.

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MS. WASTWEET:

Okay.

Okay.

One point that

I would like to just put on the record is that number
05 is -- 05A is that we've chosen and it is a very
good design is wonderful.

But should the powers that

be choose number 10 we never know once we release our
choices what comes back.

But is there some way that

we could make this child look a little happier if
indeed that one was chosen?
MS. LANNIN:

To make the -- in 10.

MS. WASTWEET:

The child on number 10 --

MS. LANNIN:
saying.

Just a comment.

Oh, now I see what you are

She looks very indifferent.
MS. WASTWEET:

She does, like why am I here.

So I think that this is maybe one reason why this one
wasn't put through.
very good.

I think that our choice of 05A is

I'm happy with that.

I wish the flag were

a little bigger but I think that since this one came
in rather close maybe that could be just for the
record if this was chosen finally that maybe we make
this little girl a little happier.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

All right.

The next meeting of this committee will be

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here in Washington, D.C., an all-in meeting on March
15 at United States Headquarters.

We have gone from a

day and a half meeting I believe to now just a one day
meeting just for informational purposes.
If there is no further business before the
committee I move to adjourn this meeting of the
Citizen Coinage Advisory Committee at 2:19 p.m.
Thank you.
(WHEREUPON, the meeting was adjourned at
2:19 p.m.)

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CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC

I, MICHAEL FARKAS, the officer before whom the
foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that
the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing
deposition was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of
said witness was recorded by me and thereafter reduced
to typewriting under my direction; that said
deposition is a true record of the testimony given by
said witness; that I am neither counsel for, related
to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action
in which this deposition was taken; and, further, that
I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or
attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor
financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of
this action.

_____________________________
Michael Farkas
Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia

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CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION

I, CHERYL LaSELLE, hereby certify that I am not
the Court Reporter who reported the following
proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of
this proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and
recordings.

The foregoing/attached transcript is a

true, correct, and complete transcription of said
proceeding.

_______________

________________________

Date

CHERYL LaSELLE
Transcriptionist

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