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CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 1 Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Meeting (CCAC) Moderated by Dr. Lawrence Brown Tuesday, February 15, 2022 1:02 p.m. Microsoft Teams Remote Proceeding Washington, DC 20001 Reported by: Jacqueline Watts JOB NO.: 5028022 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 2 A P P E A R A N C E S Dr. Peter van Alfen, CCAC Arthur .Art. Bernstein, CCAC Samuel .Sam. Gill, CCAC Dean Kotlowski, CCAC Michael .Mike. Moran, CCAC Robin Salmon, CCAC Donald Scarinci, CCAC Dennis Tucker, CCAC Dr. Harcourt Fuller, CCAC Dr. Lawrence Brown, CCAC Mint Staff: April Stafford, Chief, Office of Design Management Megan Sullivan, Senior Design Specialist Boneza Hanchock, Design Manager Pam Borer, Design Manager Roger Vasquez, Design Manager Russell Evans, Design Manager Joe Menna, Mint Chief Engraver Mike Costello, Engraving Manager Jennifer Warren, Director of Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs and Liaison to the CCAC www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 3 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd.) Greg Weinman, Esquire, Senior Legal Counsel and Counsel to the CCAC Betty Birdsong, Senior Government Affairs Specialist of Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs Members of the Press: Brandon Hall, Whitman Publishing, Senior Associate Editor Darcie Graybill The Numismatist, Associate Editor Mike Unser, Coin News Media Group, Founder and Editor Maggie Pahl, Numismatic News, Editorial Director Paul Gilkes, Amos Media/Coin World, Senior Editor www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 4 C O N T E N T S PAGE I. Approval of Minutes II. Review and discussion of obverse and 12 Reverse candidate designs for the 2023 American Liberty High Relief 24K Gold Coins and Silver Medals www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 13 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 5 P R O C E E D I N G S CHAIRPERSON BROWN: everyone. Good afternoon, I call to order this meeting of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee for Tuesday, February 15, 2022. To ensure that we have a quorum, I want to introduce the members of the Committee. My colleagues, please respond present when I call your name. Peter van Alfen? MR. VAN ALFEN: Present. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MR. BERNSTEIN: Present. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MR. GILL: MR. KOTLOWSKI: Dean Kotlowski? Present. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Mike Moran? Present. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MS. SALMON: Samuel Gill? Present. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MR. MORAN: Arthur Bernstein? Robin Salmon. Present. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Donald Scarinci? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 6 MR. SCARINCI: Present. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MR. TUCKER: Dennis Tucker? Present. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Dr. Harcourt Fuller? DR. FULLER: Present. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Brown, Chair of the CCAC. MR. WEINMAN: I am Dr. Lawrence I believe we have a quorum. That is correct. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Before we begin this meeting, I would like to remind each and every member of the Committee to mute his or her phone or microphone when not talking and to announce your name prior to speaking each time so the court reporter can accurately attribute statements to you. Additionally, I remind the public to mute your phone as this is a listening only hearing for the public. The agenda for today's public meeting includes a review and discussion of the obverse and reverse candidate designs for the 2023 American Liberty High Relief 24 Karat Gold Coins and Silver Medals. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 7 Before we begin today's proceedings, I ask that the Mint liaison to the CCAC, Ms. Jennifer Warren, do we have any members of the press on the call today? MS. WARREN: Good afternoon. This is Jennifer Warren. Yes, we do. Brandon Hall, Whitman Publishing, senior associate editor; Darcie Graybill The Numismatist, associate editor; Mike Unser, Coin News Media Group, founder and editor; Maggie Pahl, Numismatic News, editor -- editorial director; and Paul Gilkes, Amos Media/Coin World, senior editor. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: For the record, I would also like to confirm the following Mint Staff are on the call today. Please indicate present after I call your name. April Stafford? MS. STAFFORD: Present. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MS. HANCHOCK: Present. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MS. BORER: Boneza Hanchock? Pam Borer? Present. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 8 CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Roger Velazquez -- Vasquez? MR. VASQUEZ: Present. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MR. EVANS: Russell Evans? Present. Joe Menna? CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MR. MENNA: Present. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MR. COSTELLO: Present. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MS. WARREN: Greg Weinman? Present. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MS. BIRDSONG: Jennifer Warren? Present. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MR. WEINMAN: Mike Costello? Betty Birdsong? Present. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: I really would like to thank all of you for joining the call today. I would just appreciate just a few seconds -- a few minutes to recognize the significance of this first meeting of the CCAC in 2022. It is not lost upon me that my term is occurring as many in this nation are celebrating Black History Month. While I am the first www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 9 African American to serve as chair of a CCAC, this is not the first time that African Americans have played noteworthy roles in US Coinage. Indeed, African Americans have played a rich but often untold roles in US coin designs. These roles, in some ways, are similar to my personal history. Regarding such, I am forever grateful to Jennifer, Betty, April, Greg, Joe, and the thousands of dedicated employees of the US Mint. Analogous to the old commercials of hair loss remedies, I am not just a CCAC member; I am also a long standing, satisfied consumer of the products of the US Mint. I am also grateful to my fellow members of the CCAC from whom I have learned a wealth of information beyond the elementary knowledge I possessed at the beginning of my CCAC term. Special mention goes to Tom Uram and Mary Lannin, who by the way, I should recognize -- we should recognize; this is the first meeting that she's missing after seven and a half years -- and my predecessors -- I'm sorry -- chairs of the CCAC. I also want to thank former Director Ryder because certainly he was instrumental www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 10 in me coming on the CCAC. As the official press release indicates, my journey in coin collecting began at the age of 12 back in Brooklyn with a present from my parents of my first red book, initiating a lifelong hobby supported by the American Numismatic Association, the ANS, the Northern Valley Coin Club, which is my local coin club. But such a hobby would not have been possible coming from a neighborhood where addiction was present, is present, and will forever be present in many communities unless there are major societal changes. This is one of the reasons I pursued a profession in addiction medicine, allowing me to address this continuing unmet societal need with support of thousands of dedicated professionals on whose shoulders I stand. In summary, I am here today based upon the phenomenal support I received from my colleagues in the field, the patients who assisted in my development, and the many friends I have developed in continuously fulfilling hobby while serving our nation by providing miniature canvases filled with www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 11 unforgettable art. Most importantly, I am here because of family. While my father has passed, my mother still gives me advice and lets me know that she is the parent. My wife, Faith, who was present at my swearing in, continues to be supportive and patient with me. This is most important when I share with her my new acquisitions. Our lives are filled with nieces and nephews and godchildren, all of whom sometime have patiently stood by while I shared with them some tidbits about coin collecting. Now, today, I feel that my family has expanded, and I want to thank you based on the way you make me feel. Let me end with a quote from Maya Angelou, quote, "I've learned that people will forget what you said. And people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel," end quote. You, my colleagues, have made me feel great, and particularly, you have all played a role and making me feel valued. the favor to you. I pray that I could return Thank you. Now moving on to the business of the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 12 day. First, I'd like to begin with the Mint. Are there any issues that need to be addressed before we start? MS. WARREN: This is Jennifer Warren. No, there is not. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Hearing none, our first item on the agenda is the review and approval of the Minutes from the October 19, 2021 Public Meeting. Are there any comments on the documents? Hearing none, is there a motion to approve the Minutes? DR. VAN ALFEN: This is Peter. So moved. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Peter's moving. Who's the second? MR. BERNSTEIN: Art Bernstein seconds it. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: those in favor. Art Bernstein. Aye? MR. TUCKER: Aye. DR. FULLER: Aye. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 All CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 13 MR. KOTLOWSKI: MS. SALMON: Aye. Aye. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: None. Any nays? And are there any objections to the motion? If not, without objection, the Minutes and the letters are approved. And now I'd like to turn to April Stafford, who's the chief of the Mint's Office of Design Management, who will present the obverse and reverse candidate designs for the 2023 American Liberty -- American Liberty High Relief 24 Karat Gold Coins and Silver Medals. Ms. Stafford? MS. STAFFORD: Thank you so much. Some background on this program first. The United States Mint launched the American Liberty High Relief 24 Karat Gold Coins and Silver Medal program in 2015. The Secretary of the Treasury authorized the program based on the Mint's statutory authority to issue gold coins and silver medals. Designs for this biennial program feature modern www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 14 depictions of Liberty on the obverse and an American eagle on the reverse. For 2023, the Mint will issue a oneounce high relief 24 karat gold coin and a .9999 fine silver medal. We are also considering the possibility of issuing these coins in a 1/10-ounce size. To facilitate your deliberations, the candidate designs were presented to you in all three of the format prior to this meeting. So we'll start looking at the obverse designs. Candidate designs for the 2023 American Liberty 24 Karat Gold Coin in Silver Medal obverse features the theme of Liberty through perseverance. Required inscriptions for the gold coin obverse designs are, "Liberty," "In God We Trust," and, "2023." The 1/10 ounce versions will include the same inscriptions with placement accounting for the smaller planchet. The corresponding silver medal obverse will have "2023" with the optional inscription, "Liberty." Designs will be presented side by side in both their one-ounce gold and one ounce silver medal versions for your consideration. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 15 All right. So we will go ahead, and let's launch the images, please, side by side. start with Obverse 1. please. We'll We'll go to obverse one, There we go. Obverse 1 shows a stylized sculptural figure embodying the perseverance that achieving and maintaining Liberty requires. He's framed by a stone architectural element which within the circle is intended to evoke the classical image of Leonardo da Vinci's The Vitruvian Man. Obverse 2 features a bristlecone pine, a species native to California, Nevada, and Utah, thought to be the oldest living organisms on Earth, living up to 5,000 years. Bristlecone pines grow in places where other plants cannot and are often the species that is first to repopulate the land after cataclysmic changes, such as a lava run or a glacial runoff. The silver medal has the additional inscription, "We shall persevere." Obverse 3 features a suffragist, dressed in the style to recall the 1913 women suffrage procession in Washington, DC, and other demonstrations www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 16 of the period. With her confident stride, she represents all of the women who assisted in the efforts to promote voting rights. Her resemblance to the famous Walking Liberty coin is intentional, casting this suffragist as a kind of real-life depiction of Liberty. Obverse 4 depicts Liberty draped in the American flag, wearing her Liberty cap to represent freedom. In her hand, she grips a laurel wreath, symbolizing victory. She tends to a sturdy but unfinished rampart and holds her torch aloft as a beacon to lighten even the darkest night. Obverse 5 depicts a young rock climber ascending a steep precipice. Her goal of reaching the top seems nearly unattainable, but with grit and perseverance, she remains determined to reach her destination. The image represents the many Americans who continue to confront challenges in pursuing and securing liberty. Obverse 6 depicts a hand carrying the torch of Liberty in an act of perseverance. In its wake, symbolic chains confining the design have been www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 17 broken, further underscoring the goal of the torchbearer's efforts. Design 7 portrays Liberty draped with the American flag with her laurel crown of victory upon her head. Through strength and perseverance, she breaks a chain representing the challenges to liberty. A winged horse guides her journey to freedom. Design 8 represents two pilgrims in profile. Many who came to the New World endured persecution in Europe, a difficult journey overseas, and harsh conditions on the new continent in pursuit of liberty. And we'll move onto design 9A. This shows pilgrims at their landing point, looking inland to the West and encouraging one another as the Mayflower sails away. And we'll move on to 9B, which is a version of 9A. Moving onto Designs 10A. Liberty stands tall next to the Liberty Bell, which has been fractured but repaired, a symbol of endurance. She holds an olive branch, representing persevering peace. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 18 These designs correspond to a reverse, reverse 10A and 10B, which you'll see later, carrying over elements that echo Liberty's flowing hair and the wood grain of the Liberty Bell. So this is obverse -- the Obverse 10A, and these descriptions also apply to Obverse 10B. Obverse 11 portrays an American colonist persevering under the oppressive rule of King George, III. This small, underfunded army of soldiers and militiamen overcame the greatest army in the world to earn their liberty. Obverse 12 portrays the Americans who served in George Washington's Continental Army. They endured illness and lack of food at the winter encampment at Valley Forge in 1777, among other obstacles in their fight for American liberty. The design includes the additional inscription, "Perseverance For Liberty." Obverse 13 presents a modern interpretation of Liberty as a hardworking salt of the earth, strong American. She exudes a toughness, forged by overcoming the hardships of everyday life. Proud and patriotic, she holds her torch aloft with www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 19 her shield for protection, laurel wreath for victory, and her American Bulldog, a stout companion. Obverse 14 depicts a young African American mother holding the hand of her daughter. She carries a large American flag, the same version of the flag which was used during the suffragist marches in 1914. The child's posture suggests that the path ahead is bright, though it's hard to discern. So she shields her eyes. Obverse 15, this depicts two hands holding the broken pieces of a chain that represents restrictions to liberty. Chains are not broken easily and require a steady, unyielding pressure. And finally, Obverse 16, here, Liberty is revealed in Stone, demonstrating how the American people participate in sculpting our own image of Liberty. And Mr. Chairman, this concludes the obverse designs. Would you like me to stop there for your discussion and deliberation, or would you like me to carry on to share the reverses? CHAIRPERSON BROWN: It would seem to me www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 20 that would be useful to share the reverses, unless members of the committee think otherwise. This is Lawrence Brown. MS. STAFFORD: the reverses. American eagle. Okay. We'll move on to The reverse designs all depict an Required inscriptions for the gold coin are "United States of America," "E Pluribus Unum," "one ounce," ".9999 Fine Gold," and the denomination "$100." One-tenth ounce designs will feature the same inscriptions, but with, "1/10 ounce," weight and the, "$10," denomination. The corresponding silver medal may optionally include the inscription, "United States of America." Designs are presented in both their gold coin and silver medal versions here for you today. All right. We'll start with Reverse 1, which shows an American eagle preparing to land. Reverses 2A feature an eagle calling out, and this extends to Reverse 2B. Reverse 3 shows an eagle in flight while the sun peers over the horizon. Reverse 4A depicts a large stylized www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 21 American eagle flanked by dual coastlines. The image references the geography of America and invokes the song, "America the Beautiful," as the eagle flies from sea to shining sea. And this also extends to the reverses for 4B seen here. Reverse 5 depicts an American bald eagle soaring high above the same mountain range seen in the Obverse Design 5. The image echoes the climber's sense of exhilaration upon reaching the top, like an eagle soaring high above the ground. Reverse 6 depicts an eagle as it prepares to land. Reverse 7 features an eagle in flight, holding an olive branch. Reverse 8 features an eagle landing with wings held aloft. Reverse 9 features a soaring eagle. Reverses 9A depicts an eagle clutching an olive branch while perched on an arrow. The design uses classic iconography and gesture to depict dignity, strength, and peace. apologize. These are for 10A. This reverse 9A -- I The reversed 10A also www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 22 features an abstract sky pattern that intentionally echoes Liberty's flowing hair from Obverse 9A and 9B and recalls the stripes on the American flag. We can also see these designs in 10B. Moving on to Reverse 11, which portrays an upward view of an eagle in flight, holding an olive branch. Reverse 12 depicts the moments before a bald Eagles first attempt at flight. A young bald eagle stands on a rocky outcropping, looking over its shoulder just before finding the courage to fly. And finally, Reverse 13 features a traditionally stylized American eagle boldly posed to defend its nation's liberty. That concludes the designs. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you so much. This is Lawrence Brown. So let us begin with Sam Gill. Sam? MR. GILL: MS. WARREN: Jennifer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Actually, sorry. Dr. Brown, you skipped a section. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 This is CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 23 CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MS. WARREN: I apologize. Asking if Joe and Michael have any questions and then -CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MS. WARREN: Yes. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Joe? I apologize. How could we forget This is Lawrence Brown. Joe, do you and your team have any further comments, explanations that you would want to share with us? MR. MENNA: Thank you, Doc. all, Dr. Brown, congratulations. Menna. Congratulations. First of And this is Joe And it's an honor to be able to participate with you and everyone else but especially with you. So yeah, the first one you'll see, anything that's black means that it's filled and incused, so that would be all polished behind the figure. It wouldn't be sunken into the coin because it's a coin, not a medal. for coinability. All these have been vetted All of them, design-wise, might -- may have comments as well. I don't have any www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 24 -- anything to add unless anybody has any specific questions. Thank you for your time. MR. COSTELLO: is Mike Costello. Hello Dr. Brown. This I don't have anything at this time. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MR. SCARINCI: Thank you so much. Dr. Brown, I have a question for Joe? CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MR. SCARINCI: Please. Donald -- Joe -- CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Introduce yourself, Donald. MR. SCARINCI: Donald Scarinci. I'm sorry. This is And my question to you Joe is: Obverse -- the design for Obverse 3, what's interesting about that is that it's incomplete -- right? -- the plight of women in Liberty. incomplete; it's not done. It's And I'm concerned how would it pair with the reverse Eagles, which also look like they have their designs in the center area? How is the coinability and with one of the -- is there any eagle reverse that we could not use if we selected www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 25 this? MR. MENNA: I don't think so. unless Mike feels differently. I mean, I mean, with a heavily centered design here and I don't think the metal is going to be starved on either side. everything should fill nicely. I think I think, the artist is likely trying to honor some of the committee's previous requests for more negative space and things like that. I don't mean to trivialize it by saying things like that, but it's a deliberately negative space driven design. And I think it'll work. I think it would complement any of the eagles in the portfolio equally well. So a little bit of a rambling answer, Donald -MR. SCARINCI: MR. MENNA: No, thank you. Yeah. MR. SCARINCI: Thank you, Joe. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Brown. So this is Lawrence Let us then continue. Sam, if you would please? MR. GILL: Thank you Mr. Chairman. my compliments to you sincerely for your remarks www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 And CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 26 today. They were extremely moving to me, and I appreciate them all. And I want to thank you for them and for your good work. Just to start out on the obverse here. This coin has become one of my favorite ones to work on because it's a blank slate. collectors. It's really for It's not for the general public, and it can be whatever you want to make of it, to fill the squares for perseverance and endurance. The coin, to my mind, the traits I'm looking for, it should be compelling and beautiful, impactful, inspirational, of course, and show strength. And I'm just looking for something different with it. So in keeping with that, I went my -- and by the way -- the designs are all exquisite as usual. They always are, and so are the reverses. Just set that aside right from the get go. I went to Obverse Number 2 because I just think that would make us an exquisite looking coin. And yes, it does show the bristlecone pine, but whoever buys this medal or coins or the medal and the coins, they're going to read the captions. They're going to know what the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 27 bristlecone pine is all about. show perseverance. beginning. And it certainly does So that was where I went from the I think that many of the others were designs that we've looked at before in various way, shape, or form, and there's nothing wrong with that. And they could all make a very, very fine coin. I thought that Number 7 is very interesting. I wonder if it's too busy, and I will defer to what I consider the experts on this call because I can't claim to be that person. But it looks like it could be a little busy, but I do like the -- I like the depiction very, very much. Number 16 -- Obverse 16. And I also liked It just shows the Liberty in process, and I found that to be very interesting. So I think that those are my obverse choices or suggestions. And, of course, I'm always willing to hear what everybody else has to say because you always got wonderful, wonderful views on things that I just didn't see. Uh Dr. Brown, do you want to move into the reverse right now? CHAIRPERSON BROWN: I think that would www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 28 be useful. MR. GILL: Okay. Well, then, my first choice for the reverse was Number One. the soaring aspect of it. majestic and beautiful. I just love It's just really, really They're all very good, by the way, and we've seen, I think, various versions of these in the last few years. My second choice would be Number 12. like the fact it's a young eagle. I It's could be very, very well-sculpted, and it -- it's got a lot of detail on it. coin. And I think it would be a very, very beautiful Number 13 is always interesting to me for the history of it, but I don't know that we need to do that. So those are my comments, Dr. Brown. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Next is Donald. Thank you so much. Donald, you're on mute. MR. SCARINCI: Sorry about that. A point of order that I wanted to raise, I think it might be better if we did the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 29 obverse design first and selected it, and then we could pair the obverse design after we vote once we've selected it with a reverse design as opposed to -- because my opinion about the reverse is going to be different depending on the obverse that the committee ultimately selects. you though. Just my suggestion. It's up to You're the chairman. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you so kindly. Is there any objection to taking the path that's suggested by Donald? MR. MORAN: This is Mike Moran. I agree with Donald. DR. VAN ALFEN: This is Peter. I agree as well. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Then on that basis then, Donald, you can proceed with the obverse. MR. SCARINCI: First of all, the two things I'd like to say, initially -- three things I'd like to say, initially, I am very proud of you, Dr. Brown, and as we all are. And I'm very proud of the United States Mint, and I'm proud to be part of this www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 30 committee today. So I wanted to share that. This country needs to move forward, and I'm very proud. So the second thing I want to say is: The artists who submitted these designs have just -- Joe, whatever it is you're doing with the artists and April, and what -- whatever you're all doing, keep doing it because we're getting some very good designs here. And it really shows that a -- that there's hope for American coinage. And I'm very pleased with what everyone is doing. The third thing I wanted to say is about this program. This is a Liberty program, and the point of the program to go back into history that I was pleased to be a part of is to -- is in the absence of the United States Mint having an art medal program, the thinking was to give the artists an opportunity to design Liberty in a new and modern way. The traditional depictions of Liberty do not speak to the average American: the fasces, the Phrygian cap. These 18th Century and 19th Century designs are not communicating Liberty to Americans and the artists. And since we're not artists on this www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 31 committee, we -- we're -- we love art, and we love this. But we are not the artists. The artists need to come up with Liberty depicted in a new and modern way. And I was very sad that the last Liberty coin design did not get its proper recognition in the world community when the coin of the year voting occurred. And I think that's in part because this program is misunderstood. And at this point, we're not understood. And what I just said is what this program is. It's what our intention was when we urged the Mint to move forward with this program. We wanted the artist to tell us, "Is there a 21st Century way to depict Liberty?" and other than the traditional ways we're doing it, such as the shield on the reverse of the one cent, right? So again, that's a Civil War era concept, and it doesn't speak to people in the 21st Century the way it spoke as powerfully when it was more in vogue. So with that said, I am -- I'm absolutely an advocate for the last design, the Number 16, Liberty being revealed in Stone. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 First, it's just CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 32 absolutely -- I think it's an attractive design. it is what this program is. But It could be the symbol coin for this very program, which is to sculpt and creatively depict Liberty in a new and modern way, and this coin is doing exactly that. It's showing how we are all participating in our new vision for what Liberty means and what -- how Liberty is depicted. So I think this coin is absolutely my number one first choice favorite. I certainly like some of these other designs. I do like Number 14. And what I'm going to say about 14, I would also say about Number 3, which is what's interesting about this -- and I love the use of negative space in this case, Joe in Number 3 because it's not complete. complete. The mission is not We're not there. We're getting there, but we're not there. And that's the same, I think, concept in 14 also. This artist uses negative space in 14 to depict Liberty, but Liberty is still in process. We're walking towards Liberty. for all of our citizens. We're not there and So I think, I like those two www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 33 designs for what they say and how they depict it using the negative space as an incompleteness. But given the choices here, I hope nobody talks about the pilgrims. talk about the pilgrims again. I'm not going to I promise. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: sorry. But -- Donald, I'm so But can you summarize if you will please? MR. SCARINCI: I'm done. The coin I'm advocating is the sculptured coin, number -- Design 16. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you so much. And just a reminder to committee members, we have five minutes. Then, we have five minutes on the obverse and then five minutes on the reverse. So let's turn now to Mike Moran. MR. MORAN: Thank you, Dr. Brown. I want to commend the artist on the first design for using a male. Mary is not here to jump on me on that, but I'm glad that we have expanded the concept of liberty to be beyond the female figure. I had three that I particularly like in www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 34 this portfolio. pinyon tree. Design Number 3 -- or is it 2, the It's the pinyon tree, Design Number Two. I think that that is a very useful symbol of Liberty when you're not using an allegorical female form. The tree is durable; it is able to regenerate and restore itself. It has symbol and meaning in the 21st Century. Then I moved down to Number 14. the way, I agree with Donald. And by I don't want any of the pilgrims, and I also don't want any of the Revolutionary soldiers. That is not looking forward to the modern Liberty that we're trying to get the artists to define for the United States and the heart and soul of this program. But this is on Number 14. I really like this coin because it tells a story without being a storyboard. You're moving forward. You're optimistically looking forward. hands with the future in the child. You're holding It's a beautiful rendition, and I will give it votes. And my third one is the same one that Donald liked, particularly, Liberty in progress is what I call it. That's 16. I have one issue with it. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 35 Joe, is that a Phrygian cap on top of her? What is that? MR. MENNA: artist. I believe it is. I work closely with the This design went from looking like the Statue of Liberty, which is Bartohldi's interpretation of Liberty. So I encouraged the artist to go more fully with the -- I don't want to get too -- too down a deep dive too much, but a lot of what we think of as Liberty is actually Columbia throughout history. cap is dated as Donald is says. So the Phrygian I did recommend to use some traditional attributes because of the faces. It was just a device that was used to be -- to help represent her as Liberty, but it could be amended if the committee felt otherwise. This could be modified if you -- if the committee so saw fit. MR. MORAN: Yeah. I'll go off on the positive and then tell you that it does bother me. reminds me of the MLK monumental work in DC. It Coming out of the stone, I'm particularly moved by that one, at night. It's a superlative superior piece of art. This one in gold coming out of what would be textured www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 36 stone and with some polish on the face and obviously Liberty as a work in progress, which indeed it is, spectacular. Stellar. But to me, the Phrygian cap is an oddity that I would not expect the -- that an American of the 21st century to really relate to whatsoever. And while I give it a lot of votes, at the end, if it's our choice, I'm going to ask that it be reworked. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you so much. Joe, I see your hand up. MR. MENNA: Do you -- Yeah. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: -- want to say something very quickly? MR. MENNA: Joe Menna, again. Yes, Mr. Chairman. This is If I'm not speaking out of turn, I just say we could do exactly what Mike -- with April's -- with the Mint's permission, we could very easily remedy those concerns and maintain the integrity of this design to have it still be as bold and effective as Donald and Mike, both, think it is. take care of that. No problem. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 So we could CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 37 MR. MORAN: This is Mike Moran. I'll score as if you're going to be able to do that. MR. MENNA: Yes. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you so much. And by the way, Donald, please forgive me for not thanking you for that history that you provided about this program. I think that was very useful. Moving right along to Robin. MS. SALMON: This is Robin Salmon. I was drawn immediately to Number 2, the bristlecone pine, both for the sculptural aspects of it. But it's such a strong, compelling design without being fussy. And other countries have successfully used plants and animals as emblems of their history, their iconography. And I think we should also think along those lines. And I also didn't want last -- the previous coins designed with the mustang to be a oneoff. If we can continue getting away from the female subject for a year or two more, I think it would put great strength into this particular program. The bristlecone pine design is absolutely beautiful in my www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 38 eyes, and the legend, "We Shall Persevere," on the medal design really puts it into perspective. My other favorite choice was the last -- next to the last one that we've been talking about. I can't remember which number that is. the stone. The face and Yeah, that one drew me, I think, especially because sculpture is why I'm here. It's something that I work with every day, and again it's different. It's very strong, but it's still simple and it also gives you -- even though it's a female, it still gives you a different view of Liberty that I think is important and appropriate. Thank you, Dr. Brown. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. Next up is Dennis Tucker. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. This is Dennis Tucker. And I, too, would like to welcome you to the chair position. It's wonderful to have you in that role for our committee. And following up on something that Donald mentioned, I would encourage everyone, not just www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 39 committee members, but everyone listening today or watching today to take a look at old CCAC transcripts, which are online at CCAC.gov. If you take a look at the September 23 and 24, 2014, transcripts, it -- Gary Marks talked a lot about this concept of developing art medals and depictions of Liberty in our medal programs. So that can be a good foundation for people when we look at programs like this. All right. portfolio. Kudos to the Mint for this These are wonderful designs, and I'm really happy to see such a diversity of artwork here. I'll talk a bit about some of my favorites. Looking at Obverse 2, I think this is a wonderful design. I'm happy to hear that so many other committee members like it. It's very simple at first glance, but the longer you study it, the more you appreciate the tenacity of that bristlecone pine gripping onto the cliff. It's maintaining that tight grip, and because it is, the leaves and branches above are able to flourish. I think that's wonderful symbolism. All right. Another one that I liked www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 40 and this is actually my favorite of the portfolio, and I don't think we've discussed it much today is Obverse 5. This, to me, is the most dynamic and engaging of the designs in this great portfolio. It's active; it has tension; it's dizzying; and I think it personifies perseverance and heavily implies Liberty. I would love to see this combined with Reverse 5. We know that this young woman is going to persevere through this challenge, and once she's there, she'll be on top of the world. I love this design. Obverse 12, I know that we want to get away from the more historical designs, but this concept of Valley Forge, I think it really embodies the theme of perseverance leading to liberty. It reminded me of a 1978 medal that the United States Capitol Historical Society made, which was authorized by public law and designed by Frank Gasparro. Anyway, I'll probably give this a little bit of support just because I know that it will appeal to a lot of Americans, especially as we lead up to the semi quincentennial. And so those are some of the ones that drew my eye, but Number 2 and Number 5, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 41 certainly, the strongest. And of those two, Number 5 is my favorite. I would talk a little bit about Obverse 16. I love the artistry on Obverse 16. hesitate with the symbolism. spoke to me. this one. But I This one, it really So I spent a lot of time thinking about There is symbolism here about the emergence of Liberty. And Liberty is depicted as something that -- it doesn't spring completely formed right from some outside source, but it has to be earned and maintained and sculpted if you will. But that got me thinking about because this is a federal coin and medal program, it got me thinking about the foundation documents of our nation, like the Declaration of Independence, where Liberty is identified as an unalienable right. It's something that's inherent in us that doesn't need to be created. So this one, the symbolism made me struggle a bit because this almost says that Liberty is something that needs to be created. So I love the design, but it's the symbolism that I find to be a bit challenging. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 42 There were several other designs that don't really speak to the themes, I think, of liberty and perseverance. So I won't talk too much about those. Obverse 13, I could talk about that one all day because I think there's a lot going on there. There's a lot to like about Obverse 13. But it's also very busy, and I found the combination of elements to be ultimately incoherent. trying to be said here. it. I like the dog. There's just too much But I love the modernity of I like the tension between the rippling flag but the very straight flame and her torch. So there are things to like. But ultimately, I don't think that Number 13 works. So my strongest votes will go to Obverse 5, and I like the pairing with Reverse 5. Thank you, Mr. Chair. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you. And just a reminder, my colleagues, we're still trying to stay within five minutes. We must if we can because we have a fair amount to still go. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 43 Moving right along to Dean. MR. KOTLOWSKI: Chairman. Thank you, Mr. And it's not only an honor to serve with you; it's a pleasure to serve with you. And I look forward to working with you. And I see that Joe Menna has his hand up. So I'd like to defer to Joe, and I'll just mute myself and then resume my conversation. MR. MENNA: Thank you Doctor, I apologize for interrupting you. Dr. Brown, this is Joe Menna. If I could add a little art historical context to the stone head just because people are talking about the symbolism of it, and I have a lot of direct experience with this kind of stuff. Going all way back to Michelangelo, he talked about how he envisioned the figure was already in the stone, and he just had to carve the stuff away from it. It kind of alludes to that, but this practice in general is largely a Soviet device. And as someone who studied at the Russian Academy and as a product of that school of a teacher of six years in America and then two www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 44 years there, that's why the monument that Mike spoke of, the Doctor King Monument, is a Chinese sculptor, I believe. He's a Chinese Academy, which is also parallel to the Russian Academy. It's a very, very typical device of that type of monumental sculpture making to have the figure partially revealed in the stone. And I don't mean that in a pejorative way. I'm just saying there -- there's -- that's the biggest historical antecedent outside of Mount Rushmore, which is on a totally different scale, but just add a little context. I thought it might be useful. I'm not presuming anybody's knowledge or lack of knowledge. I'm not trying to say I know more than the committee, but I do have a lot of experience with the Soviet stuff. And this is really heavily connected to that style of figures emerging from the stone. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Brown. Thank you so much for that context, Joe. MS. SALMON: Salmon. This is Lawrence Dr. Brown, this is Robin May I say something? CHAIRPERSON BROWN: May I suggest www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 45 because of the fact that we -- our need to, in fact, go through everyone first, then we'll have an opportunity for everyone to give additional comments, as I do appreciate that this has been an exciting aspect. So let's hold the comments, if we can, towards the end, as much as we can. So let's return now to Dean. MR. KOTLOWSKI: Thank you, Dr. Brown. I'm going to try very hard to keep this under five minutes. and I rehearsed them. I actually wrote out my comments, And it's about five minutes. But please give me another 30 seconds if possible -CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MR. KOTLOWSKI: You got it. -- Joe. were two designs that stood out for me. Well, there I mean, if we look at what Mary Lannin always said, what's the coin on the table you want to pick up? Number 1, and it was Number 16. For me, it was And I appreciate Joe's comment, and the talk about the Martin Luther King Junior Monument. But if we're just looking at Number 16, the Martin Luther King Junior Monument also vaguely reminds me of the unfinished -- the, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 46 quote/unquote, "Unfinished Crazy Horse Monument," out near Mount Rushmore, which interestingly was done by a Polish American. Europe there. So you got a little bit of Eastern I don't know what the connection is. Let me just say some things about Number 1. "Striking," "stands out," and "strength." I think the strength you see in the lettering, the date, the body, the posture, the positioning of the body. I like the gender inversion where now you are putting more of a classical formed male as the representative of Liberty. I am wondering a little bit, though, this does -- even if it's for collectors, it has a resonance beyond collectors. And I'm just sort of wondering if when you look at his hair, if people are going to assume that this is a Native American man, and that's a headdress. And they may make some assumptions there that maybe we don't want them to make. I don't know. I wasn't too keen on Number 2, but as we saw it sort of larger than life here on the screen and what my colleague said, I think it's got a lot of merit. I'm going to come back to Number 16 at the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 47 very end. Number 3, I like it. I wanted this for the suffrage coin ahead of the one that was selected and ultimately won a major prize. that, and that's, "Oops." this one, and I like it. much as I used to. And there's a word for But I really pushed for I'm not so sure I like it as I think I may have moved on a little bit from it because the designs here are just simply so good and some of them we have seen. Number 4, nobody has spoken about Number 4. too faint. I don't like it, but I appreciate it. It's too busy. It's I'm not really seeing Liberty or perseverance here, but the design does conjure these images of the Pre-Raphaelites and maybe even Louis Comfort Tiffany. And so when do you see those kinds of things in a coin? And so some kudos to the artist. I did like Number 5. It's young; it's hip. I like this one. It's energetic. It's original. It's something beyond the classical ideal of Liberty, embodied by a woman in flowing robes. And I think it could generate some attention in conversation, and maybe even -- I don't know -- reach out to younger www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 48 people. Who knows? I am going to say something about the pilgrims. I was a little surprised to see them here. And I was sort of thinking that when we think of the Pilgrims and first contact, yes, it's Liberty for the pilgrims. But it's not hard to see the dispossession of indigenous peoples, and we might want to move on from that. I'm going to skip ahead. at Number 14. More and more, I like Number 14 as opposed to Number 3. motif. Just looking I like the mother daughter I find it very moving. I like that the daughter is looking off in another direction, showing some sort of different perspective, different point of view, different understanding of what Liberty might mean, almost generational. At the end, I did have trouble with Number 16 in terms of not seeing the concept of Liberty or Liberty through perseverance, but it's such a good design. It's such a strong design. draws your eyes. I commend it. It really And I think it's either 1 or 16 for me, and I'm going to be giving www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 49 points to quite a few of these designs. Excellent portfolio. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you so much, Dean. Next, is it Peter? DR. VAN ALFEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I would just like to congratulate you on your chairmanship and the moving remarks you made a little bit earlier. So what Dean just said about Mary's comment about the coin that catches your eye and that you want to pick up off the table, I have to say that Number 1 and 16 were immediately the ones that that caught my eye and, in part, because I think that they also fit well within the general program of what has been produced so far. And in fact, if we looked back at what has been produced since 2015 in this program, we really have some of the most exceptionally beautiful coins in recent memory. Some aspects that all of these coins share is a certain gravity, dignity, and timelessness. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 50 And so in terms of looking for designs in this 2023 program, I, again, was looking for something that has gravity, dignity, and a timelessness, particularly a timelessness to it. And even though I like a lot of the designs, like Number -- I think it was Number 4 or Number 3 and this Number 5 and particularly Number 14. 14, the mother and daughter. touching. I really like Number I find that very They seem to lack a certain timelessness to them, even though, they are very good designs. So I do, again, come back more to Number 1 and Number 16. The problem that I have with Number 16 is that facing images, I think, typically have -- or facing faces typically have a lot of difficulty in being rendered well in coins and medals. There's always the problem of depth and also -- I'm forgetting the word at the moment. But I just am not sure how well this would actually come out in terms of the medal. I mean, it looks very nicely done here in two dimension and in drawing form. But I'm not really sure how this would work in terms of medal. The other problem that I've have 16 is www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 51 that it, to me, seems very claustrophobic. It's a wonderful design, and I think that if this were representing anything other than Liberty, it would be fantastic. But since we are representing Liberty, here, it just seems a little too closed and claustrophobic to me. So again, I come back to Number 1 because this really does seem in some ways to represent what we've been through, through the course of the last couple of years with the pandemic: sort of breaking through all of this, finding Liberty after the Sisyphean two years that we've been through. this is sort of a Sisyphean character here. And But again, I'm -- I have some hesitancy about this. And I also come to Number 2 as a possibility as well. The problem that I have with Number 2 is I'm just not sure if at a distance, this design would not appear a little muddled. It is a design that you would need to look at very closely to see what, in fact, it is and also to see the details of it. But if you saw this on a table, it might not be immediately apparent what it is, other than just www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 52 sort of a smudge in a way. So I have some concerns about that. So again, I think 1 and 16 certainly have my votes, 2 as well. But again, I've got some reservations about all of these. So thank you. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you so much. And next up is Arthur. MR. BERNSTEIN: Bernstein. This is Arthur I'd like to speak favorably about Obverses 1, 2, and 3. been said. Hi. Much of what I was thinking has already Obverse 1, to me, is bold and different, and the lettering really struck me. unusual font. It's such an The "I" of Liberty just jumps out and really, really caught my eye. Obverse 2, I agree with what has been said about the look of the tree. And Obverse 3, to me, is different but also traditional at the same time. I like the resemblance to the old walking Liberty design. the way this design flows. across the coin. I love It just sort of walks And I like the symbolism. Thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 53 CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you so much. Dr. Fuller? DR. FULLER: Thank you, Dr. Brown. And first, let me congratulate you, again, on becoming chair of the CCAC, and I look forward to serving with you and my other colleagues as well. I also want to congratulate all of the artists who have submitted designs for this committee's review. the portfolio. And I want to say I really love There are so many strong designs within it. I have identified four that I think speak to what we're trying to achieve. 10A, 14, 5, and 16. And these are And I'll spend a little bit of time on as many as I can. And I haven't yet ranked them in any particular order. But if I may start with 10A, I just really like -- it's an elegant coin. design. I like the symbolism of it, the Liberty Bell, fractured but repaired. nation. It's a beautiful It says a lot about our Of course, I like the olive branch, representing peace. I think, if I may say so, I would www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 54 prefer Liberty to be looking in the other direction facing forward, which is 10B, actually. Fourteen, I think, like many of my colleagues have said, the word that comes to mind when I think about 14 is that it's relatable. daughters. I have two I just think that for any -- young people out there, people with children, it speaks to the young folks looking toward a brighter future in this country. well. It speaks to inclusion and patriotism as So I really love that about the coin. Five, I just watched a couple documentaries about rock-climbing. greater appreciation of it. So I have a This is a young person. So I think, it's going to be relatable to young people. We need more young people in numismatics. It's relatable. She's attempting to scale a mountain. At the top of which, she will have conquered the world, as one of my colleagues said before. So I think it's trendy, and I think it's a very strong design. And then, finally, 16. I won't spend a lot of time on that because we've spoken about that. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 55 But this is a very bold coin and medal with a strong design. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you so much. And I'm just going to share a couple of comments because we're going to need to talk about process because if we have to do the reverse. So the comments by our members of the CCAC, I certainly applaud. And Joe, I applaud you and your team. This is a fantastic portfolio. When I started to think about what would be the basis of my choices, I went back to the theme. The theme of perseverance and Liberty. And Donald's, in fact, summary of the history of this program also was persuasive to me to say that we wanted to have a modern rendition of Liberty. So thinking about that, the combination of those three issues, to me are Designs 2, 5, and 12 are the most, in fact, suggested item. Design 2 is fantastic. about it is: The only thing Even though, this is going to be for collectors, the symbolism may sometimes get lost, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 56 particularly when you say a theme is Liberty and perseverance. One of the reasons why I've chosen-- actually Design Number 14 is that when we think about perseverance in any society, we think about what's happening the next generation. What is the opportunity to, in fact, have a next generation? So persevering in the face of the challenges that a society has, to me, seems to be with looking forward, having a mother and a child. Now admittedly, it could've been of any ethnicity. But I think here, mother and child does something to almost anyone. So as people look at things that motivate people, it is, in fact, certainly pets and is certainly children, but mother and child, particularly in talk of perseverance, to me that sends chills up my spine. So those are my comments. My colleagues, we do need to talk about process. As you know, the score sheet has obverse and reverse. So in a way, we sort of were useful on one hand to choose the obverse and then come back to the reverse. But that means that taking time out for a vote, mindful of the fact that we have until three www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 57 o'clock. So if we could do that with some rhythm, then we may be able to do that well. Joe? MR. MENNA: This is Joe Menna. Dr. Brown, if I may, just a little behind the scenes talk with my Mint colleagues prompted me to feel confident that I could just -- I'd like to just talk about Peter's concerns about the tree. Sixteen years of listening to the committee's educational deliberations, I've always heard this calling for more sculptural, artistic, abstract, symbolic work. And even though, if you look at it from a literal perspective, yes, the tree might not make sense. But if you look at the sculptural forms of the struggle, the twisting, sinewy kind of just abstract shapes. They, themselves, speak of struggle, even without any literal context. And this jagged silhouette, it -- it's this form going upwards into -- it could be -- this could just be some cosmic shape. Twombly painting. This could be a Cy It doesn't have to be representational, but it represents struggle. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 It CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 58 represents perseverance just by the abstract qualities, in a way that probably in -- just in my humble opinion -- I'm not trying to make -- I'm not voting -- but I think more so than any other in the portfolio. And it's a direct inheritor of the bronco in that in that capacity. And I think, for 14, for me, it's -- the suffrage -- suffragette was aligned with our famous Weinman Walking Liberty. But 14 for me, this is more so because it lacks all that pomposity. It lacks all that symbolism that was appropriate a hundred years ago. But here's this proud woman, and she's giving us the future in her -- by virtue of presenting her child along with her. She's presenting both the future, her patriotism, and her -- look how strong she's -- strongly she stands, like a column. This is a magnificent design as well. For literal symbolism, I think this is the inheritor of the Liberty, as some people were talking about the suffrage and, for abstract purity, the tree. And I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds, Dr. Brown. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 59 CHAIRPERSON BROWN: good context. No, that was very Thank you so much. So my colleagues, may I suggest that we consider, unless any further comments about the obverse, and if not, then that we actually go to vote to choose an obverse, from which then we can choose a matching of reverse. Does that make sense? Hearing no objections, then -MR. WEINMAN: Yeah. Right. Please score the obverse and send it to me, and I will turn around to you as quickly as I can. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MR. WEINMAN: know how to reach me. Thank you. Please? Everybody should And remember, for the new members, you can score zero, one, two, or three based on how strongly you feel about any one design. You can score every design a three if you'd like, every design a two. MS. WARREN: Dr. Brown, I would just say that we adjourn for about -- not adjourn -- go on recess for about five minutes and come back about 2:16. Hopefully, that gives everybody enough time to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 60 vote. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: That makes a lot of sense. Hearing no objection, we stand adjourned until 2:15. MR. WEINMAN: In recess. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: recess to 2:15. Thank you. I'm sorry. In I'm not trying to get the meeting over that quickly. THE REPORTER: The time is 2:11 p.m., and we are adjourned. MR. WEINMAN: THE REPORTER: In recess. Please stand by. Recess. MR. WEINMAN: THE REPORTER: We're not adjourned yet. Thank you, sir. (Off the record.) THE REPORTER: The time is 2:22 p.m. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Okay. And we're back in session. Greg, if you may? MR. WEINMAN: Yes. So after scoring www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 61 the obverses, these scores are as follows: Number 1 got -- received 14 points. This is out of a possible 30 points. Number 2 received 21, making it the high vote getter. Number 2. Number 3 received 13 points. Number 4 received two. Number 5 received 11 points. Number 6 received three points. Number 7 received three points. Number 8 received two. Number 9A received two. Nine B received two. Ten A received six. Ten B received seven. Eleven received three. Design 12 received four. Design 13 received four. Design 14 received 16 votes. Design 15 received three. And Design 16 received 18 votes. So once again the highest vote getter www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 62 was Design 2, followed by Design 16. At this point, Dr. Brown, you can entertain any motions. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Any motions by any of the committee members regarding the obverse design, as in fact, suggested reports given to us by Greg? MR. TUCKER: Tucker. Dr. Brown, this is Dennis I don't think this requires it, but I would recommend that we make our recommendation Number 2. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MR. TUCKER: Is there a second? As it stands. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you. Is there a second? DR. VAN ALFEN: This is Peter. I second that. MS. SALMON: This is Robin Salmon. I second. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Okay. -- we called you as a second. All those in favor "aye." MR. MORAN: Aye. DR. VAN ALFEN: Aye. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Peter, you CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 63 MR. SCARINCI: MR. GILL: Aye. Aye. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you. And I think at this point, we can move to the obverse -- I'm sorry -- the reverse. And I'd like to suggest, dear committee members, given the time, that we try to do it, in fact, two to three minutes if we can. And let's, then, go to -- back to Sam Gill. Sam, do you want to add anything more than what you did previously, or do you want to reinforce that? MR. GILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would just re-echo that I thought that Number 1 -- Reverse Number 1 would look just -- and now that we have the obverse, I think it would look exceptionally beautiful with it. second choice. And I like the Number 12 as my And I thank you. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you so much. Donald? MR. SCARINCI: flight. I like the birds in Particularly, Number 3 or Number 5 would be my two favorites. Others are nice, but those would be www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 64 my two favorites, three and five. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you. Mike Moran? MR. MORAN: Number 1. Yes, Dr. Brown. I like Let me point out on Number 4A and B. I felt like that the eagle needed to be stiff-legged in 4A and B, and that bothers me. The design theme is good, but the -- I -- I'm used to a different type of -- or style of eagle with those legs back, not down like that. My favorite, probably, is Number 12. I do want to point out something about Number 12 in terms of the narrative. Young eagles that have just fledged from the nest do not have a white head. don't get their white head until age four. the narrative on this is totally wrong. They So that And they're not going to fledge from a mountain peak or a rock; they're going to fledge out of the nest. there's nothing wrong with this design. an immature eagle. But again, It's just not It's a full standing bald eagle, and it's excellent in that regard. But you need to kill the narrative. And I like it. It's wrong. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 65 Okay. That's me. I'm done. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you. Robin? MS. SALMON: preferred Number 5. This is Robin Salmon. I I looked at all of the eagle designs in relation to the previous coins' eagle designs to try to do something different. is good. So Number 5 I also liked the fact that the rock sort of supports the narrative on the obverse. And then Number 12 with the eagle also standing on the rock, I thought was a very strong and beautiful design. And both of those would work well. I might lean more toward Number 12. Thank you, Mr. Chair. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you. Dennis? MR. TUCKER: like Reverse 1. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I I like Reverse 9 because it reminds me of the Flying Eagle cent. 9B have some merit. I think Reverses 9A and And when I look at flying eagles like this, I -- I'm often drawn to think about the platinum bullion coinage. So that's what I compare www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 66 new designs to. But my favorite is Number 1. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you so much. Next is Dean? MR. KOTLOWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think to get across the concept of Liberty, a soaring eagle is much better than a standing stationary eagle or a landing eagle or a seemingly attacking eagle. So that's where I am with this -- with some modification with those principles. So my votes, I do like Number 5. I think Five is a good design for the reasons my colleagues have stated. And I like the negative space and a good strong design. Far more than Number 5, though, I like Number 11. before. I think we may have seen this design Here, you have a really strong soaring eagle. And I think Number 12 is a really terrific design, even though, it's not technically a soaring eagle. You can imagine that eagle going off to soar. And as long as we revise the narrative, or Mike put it, to kill the narrative, and just focus on the design, I'm really good with this design as well and will be www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 67 giving it some points. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you. Peter? DR. VAN ALFEN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would say that in terms of pairing with the obverse that we've selected, Number 5, in my opinion would be the best, the continuity from the obverse to the reverse with the mountain range in the lower fields of the Reverse Number 5. well. I think works Also, I'm really drawn to this depiction of the eagle in flight. I think it's a very strong depiction, and I really do like the negative space as well. So my top choice would be Number 5. Possibly Number 12. Number 12, just simply because there is, again, continuity between the obverse and reverse in terms of the mountain crag or the rock there. So Five is my choice -- top choice. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you so much. Arthur? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 68 MR. BERNSTEIN: Bernstein. This is Arthur At this point, I think I'm the only one who is speaking about Reverse 2A. I don't recall ever seeing any of our coins with the eagle with its beak open. And that struck me as just something new and different. And I was intrigued by it, and the fact that it's calling out gives it a sense of action. So I like Reverse 2A. Also, a strong supporter of Reverse 12. And Reverse 3 caught my attention. I thought the sunrays was a nice -- were a nice feature. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Outstanding. Next is, in fact, Dr. Fuller. DR. FULLER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would agree with Peter in choosing Reverse 5. I think it pairs well with the obverse that we have selected. And I also like Number 9. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Outstanding. you. As for my perspective, I loved the calling out perspective. We're talking about www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Thank CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 69 perseverance calling out. particularly. Reverse 5. So Reverse Number 2A, I certainly would have no objections to But those are the two that I more lean towards. So are there are any comments by any of the committee members based on what you have heard on the reverse conversation? MR. TUCKER: Mr. Chair? CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MR. TUCKER: apologize. Yes, sir. This is Dennis Tucker. I I'm looking at two different files where 9A and 9B appear to actually be 10A and 10B. So just for the record, my comments were regarding the eagle that's perched on an arrow with an olive branch. And I mention that only for the record because I know that this will go into a written transcript, and it has no bearing on my votes. So thank you. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you. Joe, do you have any comments about the reverse that you want to share with the committee? MR. MENNA: No. This is Joe Menna. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 70 No, sir, Dr. Brown. I think it's a very well-balanced portfolio, and I think the Mint artists did a great job. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you. Hearing no further discussion, the committee will now score the reverse of the candidate designs, each of you in your email packet, the information from the Mint. And again, please send your scores to, in fact, Greg Weinman. Greg, do you think, again, five minutes would be sufficient? MR. WEINMAN: come in. Depends how fast they Let's check back in in five minutes. I'll let you know how we're doing. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: now for five minutes. 2:40. So we are in recess Return back, let's say, at That's six minutes from now. THE REPORTER: The time is 2:34 p.m. Recess. (Off the record.) THE REPORTER: The time is 2:46 p.m. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: This is Lawrence www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 71 Brown. We are back. I want to thank all of the committee members and the listening public for their patience as we get together this information. I now recognize Greg Weinman, counsel to the CCAC, to present the results from the scoring sheets. MR. WEINMAN: Okay. Once again, this is out of 30 points possible. Reverse Number 1 received seven points. Number 2A received eight points. Two B received five points. Three received five points. Four received five points -- 4A. Four B record four points. Five received 17 points. That is the high score, but it is tied with another one. again, 5 at 17. Six received five points. Seven received four points. Eight received three points. Nine received seven points. Ten A received six points. Ten B received six points. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 So once CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 72 Eleven received seven points. Twelve is the other one to receive 17 points And 13 received four. So once again, the two highest scores were Number 12 with 17 and Number 5 with 17. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you, Greg. Are there any motions from members of the committee? MR. MORAN: Dr. Brown, I'll make the motion. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MR. MORAN: Yes. I move that we select Design Number 12. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MR. KOTLOWSKI: MS. SALMON: Is there a second? I second that. Robin Salmon. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Okay. Dean -- I second. We'll take Robin as the second. Is there any further debate? If that is the case, if all discussion has concluded, I will call the question. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 73 Those in favor of the motion say, "Aye." MR. GILL: Aye. DR. VAN ALFEN: Aye. DR. FULLER: Aye. MS. SALMON: Aye. MR. TUCKER: Aye. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MR. SCARINCI: Those opposed? Aye. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: It appears that the motion has passed. Are there any further motions? MR. KOTLOWSKI: Dr. Brown, this is Dean Kotlowski. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: MR. KOTLOWSKI: Please. I accept and fully support the designs that we've chosen for the obverse. It's Number 2 paired with Number 12. My motion is to just do as an alternative Number 16 for the obverse. sure which reverse I would go with. And I'm not I'd welcome if there's interest in this motion, a friendly amendment. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 74 I guess I would go 16, and I think we probably need the eagle in flight. believe. So that would be Number 5, I Right? CHAIRPERSON BROWN: So for clarification, Dean, you're suggesting as an alternative to the motion -MR. KOTLOWSKI: Yeah. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: -- that just passed? MR. KOTLOWSKI: as the first place. No, I'm happy with that That is the first place. My motion is just simply like a kind of second place alternative. Just something for the secretary to think about. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Is there a second for that motion? There was no second. MS. WARREN: Jennifer. Excuse me. This is Whoever has open mics, please close them. There's a lot of feedback. You can't hear the director -- I mean, the chair. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Can you mute, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 75 everyone? This is Lawrence Brown. motion on the floor by Dean. We have a Do we have a second? Hearing -- seeing no second, then the motion fails. Are there any other further discussion? Based on that, then this seems to suggest that we've concluded the business for today. Again, I want to thank members of the CCAC, the fantastic Mint employees, our listening public, our media for your attention and participation to the extent that you could for this meeting of the CCAC. If there is no further business to come before this committee, I will entertain a motion to adjourn. MR. BERNSTEIN: This is Art Bernstein. Second. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Very good. All those in favor, say, "Aye." DR. VAN ALFEN: MR. GILL: MR. MORAN: Aye. Aye. Aye. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 76 DR. FULLER: Aye. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: All those opposed, "Nay." MR. TUCKER: Aye. MS. SALMON: Aye. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: In the opinion and in the hearing of the Chair, the ayes have it, and the meeting is so adjourned. MR. BERNSTEIN: Nicely done, Dr. Brown. Good first meet. MR. GILL: MS. WARREN: MR. MORAN: Yep. Thank you all so much. Congratulations, Dr. Brown. DR. VAN ALFEN: Congratulations. MR. TUCKER: See you all. MS. SALMON: Bye, everyone. CHAIRPERSON BROWN: Thank you. Until next time. DR. FULLER: Thank you, Dr. Brown. DR. VAN ALFEN: Well, let's look forward to meeting in person next time. DR. FULLER: Yeah. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 77 MS. BIRDSONG: Jacqueline, you have a THE REPORTER: The time is 2:52 p.m. question? (Whereupon, the meeting concluded at 2:52 p.m.) www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 78 CERTIFICATE OF DEPOSITION OFFICER I, JACQUELINE WATTS, the officer before whom the foregoing proceedings were taken, do hereby certify that any witness(es) in the foregoing proceedings, prior to testifying, were duly sworn; that the proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting by a qualified transcriptionist; that said digital audio recording of said proceedings are a true and accurate record to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. <%25546,Signature%> JACQUELINE WATTS Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 CCAC Public Meeting February 15, 2022 Page 79 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER I, APRIL D. HATFIELD, do hereby certify that this transcript was prepared from the digital audio recording of the foregoing proceeding, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. <%26297,Signature%> APRIL D. HATFIELD www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376