The full text on this page is automatically extracted from the file linked above and may contain errors and inconsistencies.
CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE Wednesday, February 15, 2017 1:04 p.m. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY United States Mint 801 9th Street, NW Washington, DC 20220 Reported by: Nate Riveness RPR/CSR Capital Reporting Company A P P E A R A N C E Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee: Mary Lannin, Chairperson Jeanne Stevens-Sollman Dennis Tucker Erik Jansen (telephonic) Robert Hoge (telephonic) Michael Moran (telephonic) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (telephonic) Donald Scarinci (telephonic) Thomas Uram (telephonic) Heidi Wastweet (telephonic) Herman Viola (telephonic) ODM: April Stafford Megan Sullivan Vanessa Franck Pam Borer Roger Vasquez United States Mint Don Everhart Greg Weinman Gwen Mattleman Betty Birdsong Mike White. Members of the Press: Paul Gilkes, Coin World (telephonic) Mike Unser, Numismatic News (telephonic) Maggie Judkins, Numismatic News (telephonic) Liaisons: Charles Pinck, President, OSS Society Patrick O’Donnell, Historian (telephonic) Professor John Chambers (telephonic) Ambassador Hugh Montgomery (telephonic) Jack Herlihy, Museum Specialist, Lowell National Historical Park (telephonic) Ellen Anstey, Manager for Administration, UMass/Lowell National Historical Park (telephonic) Lauren Gurniewicz, Chief of Interpretations, San Antonio Mission National History Park (telephonic) Cheri Ford, Deputy Forest Supervisor, SalmonChallis National Forest (telephonic) Denis Kuhnel, Middle Fork District Ranger, SalmonChallis National Forest (telephonic) Jim Richardson, Superintendent, American Memorial Park and War in the Pacific National Historical Park (telephonic) P R O C E E D I N G S MS. LANNIN: It is 1:04 p.m. on Wednesday, February 15th, 2017. And good morning to those of you on the west coast and good afternoon for the folks here. I’d like to call to order the meeting of the Citizens Coinage advisory Committee for Wednesday, February 15th, 2017. So I’m going to read the list of the CCAC members for the transcript and please respond present when I call your name. MR. HOGE: Robert Hoge. Present. MS. LANNIN: Erik Jansen. MR. JANSEN: Present. MS. LANNIN: Donald Scarinci. Sollman is here. Jeanne Stevens- Michael Moran. MR. MORAN: Present. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Dennis Tucker is here. Present. MS. LANNIN: MR. VIOLA: Herman Viola. Present. MS. LANNIN: MS. WASTWEET. Heidi Wastweet. Tom Uram. MS. LANNIN: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. MR. ABDUL-JABBAR: MS. LANNIN: Hello, Kareem. MR. ABDUL-JABBAR: MS. LANNIN: Present. All right. Hello. I am the Chair Mary Lannin and I would like to begin this meeting by introducing and welcoming our newest members Mr. Kareem ABDUL-JABBAR. In addition to -UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: MR. ABDUL-JABBAR: MS. LANNIN: Welcome. Oh, thank you very much. Okay. MR. ABDUL-JABBAR: I’m glad to be here, thank you. MS. LANNIN: Great. In addition to your accomplishments, Kareem, as a prominent NBA player you’re an avid coin collector. You became interested in numismatics based on your love of history and your study of Alexander Hamilton. You currently serve as the Chairman of the Skyhook Foundation, whose missing is to give kids a shot that can’t be blocked by bringing opportunities to underserved communities through innovative outdoor environmental learning. Mr. ABDUL-JABBAR is also a regular contributor columnist to the Washington Post and Time Magazine and a bestselling author of literary fiction and nonfiction books. On November 23rd, 2016 he was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom from President Barak Obama in recognition of his advocacy of social justice. And on January 17th, 2017 he was appointed to the President’s Counsel on Fitness, Sports and Nutrition. We are honored to have you as a colleague on the Citizen’s Coinage Advisory Committee and we look forward to a more formal swearing in when we meet in person at our next public meeting in Washington on March 15th. Kareem, would you like to add anything to that? MR. ABDUL-JABBAR: Gee, what can I say? has kind of been like a whirlwind. This I’m thrilled to be involved and I think that I could really make this a good thing for everybody in that I bring a new perspective and I’m anxious to contribute. MS. LANNIN: Well, we’re anxious to meet you in person and so that you get to know all of us and our interests as well. Okay. During this session the Committee will consider the following items: discussion of the letter and minutes from the previous meeting and the review and discussion of design concepts for the 2019 America the Beautiful Quarters Program. Before we begin our proceedings are there members of the press in attendance or on the phone? MR. GILKES: Paul Gilkes, Coin World. MS. LANNIN: Hello Paul. MR. UNSER: MS. LANNIN: MS. JUDKINS: MS. LANNIN: Mike Unser with Numismatic News. Hello Mike. Maggie Judkins, Numismatic News. Hello Maggie. For the Mint staff, do we have any issues that need to be addressed? Don Everhart is smiling, so that’s good. Okay. The first item on our agenda is a discussion of the letter to the Secretary and the minutes from our previous meeting. document? Does anyone have any comments on either Hearing no further discussion I move to approve the minutes and the letter to the Secretary. Is there a second? MR. JANSEN: Second. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Erik Jansen. Erik seconded. Thank you, Erik. MS. STAFFORD: Chair. If I could just clarify, Madam I believe it’s just minutes, because we just design concepts in January for the Native American. So there was no formal letter of recommendation to the Secretary. MS. LANNIN: Oh, thank you. So this is just the minutes. MR. WEINMAN: clarifying. And also as long as we’re Just a reminder because this is a telephonic meeting, if anybody on the phone speaks, in fact for that matter even those that are in the room, please identify yourself for the record. MS. LANNIN: seconded. Thank you, Greg. Okay. Erik has All those in favor please signify by saying aye. ALL: Aye. MS. LANNIN: Those opposed say no. (No verbal response.) MS. LANNIN: And the ayes have it. Okay. Our next order of business, and I would like to apologize in advance for moving very quickly, but we need to be finished in an hour and 20 minutes, will be the review of the discussion of design concepts for the 2019 America the Beautiful Quarters Program. And Pam and Vanessa have been working on this group of coins. So I’d like to turn to April Stafford, Manager of the Mints Design Management Team to present the concepts. And what we’re going to do is we’re going to talk about each coin first, then discussion and then we’ll talk about another coin. If you all agree or don’t have anything further to add to what one of our colleagues has said in the interest of time, it’s perfectly okay when I call on you just to say pass. But I will call on each and every one of you for each of the five designs. Okay, April, would you like to start? MS. STAFFORD: Sure. And just a reminder the purpose of this meeting is to provide the artists, who will be developing designs for these quarters, input for their consideration as they begin that process. So we will start first with Lowell National Historical Park in Massachusetts. Established in 1978 Lowell National Historical park preserves and interprets the role of Lowell in the American Industrial Revolution. 1830s. Primarily during the 1820s and The park archives the history of the human story, in addition to the industry processes and cultural environment of the time. During the Industrial Revolution there was rapid development in Lowell as it became a premiere industrial site. Ten ten-acre factories were constructed within 25 years and the area witnessed a population growth from 2500 to 25,000 people. The nearly six miles of canals and waterways dug to provide power to the textile mills were of vital importance and nearly all are still in existence. In fact, this canal system is one of the iconic parts of Lowell that prompted Congress to set aside the area as a national park. Dependent on this water power the mills built in Lowell expanded the integrated factory system to new levels by the size and scope of its factory operations. This factory represented a new type of mill, an operation with large scale equipment. No longer would the production of cloth depend on the spinning wheel and in individual artisans. This change revolutionized the way textiles were manufactured and exemplified the advancements realized during the Industrial Revolution. The era was also defined in part by mill girls. Predominately young Yankee women who were recruited to work in the mills where they earned cash wages and lived in supervised company owned boarding houses. Coming mostly from New England farms, the girls signed onto the mills to work for a designated period of time. This female workforce was critical to the textile industry for many years. As a group they became an important voice for labor by advocating for better working conditions, supporting abolitionism and embracing education. Through discussions with representatives from Lowell National Historical Park we’ve identified the following possible devices for the quarter: Mill girls; canal system and water power; mill buildings, elements from the City seal; the clock tower with bell; and potential inscriptions for consideration are “Spindle City”, “City of Spindles”, “Mill City”, “All was expect safe”, “Art is the handmaid of human good” and “American industry”. We are fortunate to have with us liaisons to Lowell National Historical Park, Mr. Herlihy and Ms. Anstey. For the interest of time I recommend the CCAC members call upon them if they have any questions. And certainly I invite the liaisons from any site if there’s something you’d like to add to the conversation please feel free to do that. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, April. Robert, would you like to begin talking about Lowell National Historical Fund? MR. HOGE: Yes, thank you. I think one of the important things to try to include would be some kind of representations of the acknowledging that that’s really the revolutionary thing involved. I feel very few people today probably have any awareness about the kinds of looms and spindles and the actual goings on within the mill. The mills themselves, the architectural features is fine, but it doesn’t really convey what was going on, what was revolutionary there. MS. LANNIN: Okay, thank you, Robert. MR. JANSEN: Yeah, let me get off mute. would like to ask a liaison. Erik. I In that list that you read Mary, starting with mill girls and ending up with the surprise comment about art as the “handmaid of human good” and so forth. Would you prioritize those for us in terms of two years from now and looking back to what we get on this coin will you be happiest with in terms of matching how Lowell wants this to play into its image? MS. LANNIN: So I believe that question is for Mr. Herlihy or Ms. Anstey. MR. HERLIHY: Okay, Jack Herlihy here, Museum Specialist and Curator, Lowell National Historical Park. So the art -- I’ll just make one straight comment. “Art is the handmaid of human good is the motto of the City of Lowell. And what that exemplifies is that the work that was done by the people is actually I. As well as what was mentioned earlier about the technology and the science and the technology that we need to -- the construction of the canal system, the development of it and also all the machinery that was developed here that went into producing this product. So that’s kind of where that comes from. The Spindle City and the City Spindle, those are kind of representative of, you know, the spindle which often times 19th Century photographs of mill workers, young girls from maybe the 1850s to the 1880s and they always hold like a shuttle or a spindle because they were very proud of the work that they do. One thing that we would like to see, an element of the coin, is the value of work, the everyday work of the normal worker, the person that gets up to go to work every day and the value of work that they did in order to contribute in American culture of which we still are representative today. Do you have anything? MS. ANSTEY: Sure. This is Ellen Anstey. I mean the canal system in Lowell is so important to Lowell history and that was the main reason national park was set up here. And certainly the clock tower with the bell is to prove a time when these workers by the bell they would ring the bell to go to eat, ring the bell to come back to work and be at their little -well, those things are very important. MR. JANSEN: appreciate that. Thank you, Jack and Ellen, I think that will give an artist something to think about here. One of the comments as I read this and did some research that applies to Saraland (phonetic) coin that we’re going to talk about here today is there’s going to be a temptation here, if not kind of a fault to think about buildings and iconic photos put on this coin. And I would just like for the record to go on there today and say with the exception of the most iconic of buildings, the Statue of Liberty, the Washington Memorial, the Lincoln Memorial, those kind of categories, those on the small one-inch plus or minus pallet we have don’t work well. And I would ask the artist in kind of building this charge to them to resist the hesitation to center their design on buildings. And unfortunately that may be voiding out the clock tower. Don’t necessarily go high on the list here, my request and my opinion I want to avoid photographs that we try to put on a metal pallet of a coin. I love the idea advancing the ideas of the people’s profession is their personal art, the art of their craft. The value of work is an interesting concept to lay out. But I’m not sure a picture of a canal necessarily will pull this off. very creative symbol we can use. Spindle is a I see embracing education and actually the kind of rising pressure of the strike in 1834 as an interesting piece here. But it doesn’t sound like a positive element that we always try to build into these. This coin when you watch the way they’re unveiled this coin is about education, this coin is about commerce, this coin is about local image. And I think we need to stick to images and not pictures in metal here. Thank you for my time. MS. LANNIN: MR. HERLIHY: MS. LANNIN: MR. HERLIHY: Thanks, Erik. Jeanne. Jack Herlihy here. I’m sorry, Jack. So I know I -- there are wonderful like engravings of mill girl in their dress. I’m not saying that’s going to end up on the coin, but there are ways to I think capture the era of these young women, the first working people that were paid for their labor in that way. Somehow capturing their story is somehow I see some element some way on this coin. MR. JANSEN: Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: this on? Jeanne. Thank you, Mary. Is I am the granddaughter of, and I think our liaisons would enjoy this, of the man who managed the jacquard looms in Lowell, Massachusetts in the 1920s. So the mill girls and the looms are very special to me. And I would love to see something different on this coin. To have maybe, Erik had mentioned technology, I think is a good idea. And if somehow we could represent or the artist could represent a loom with some of our mill girls in attendance I would -- I know this is a lot on this tiny little piece. But we have never had -- I think of that kind of combination where we could actually use, you know, the inscription of “art is the handmaid of human good”. So when we say something like that we’re not only talking about the looms and Lowell, but we’re also talking about art in the history of our country. something like that included. MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: So I would love to see Thank you. Thank you, Jeanne. Yes, Mary. Mr. Moran. A lot of what I had to say has been covered, so I’m going to be very brief. I think the theme on this quarter should really revolve around the mill girls and the spinning machines or the looms. There are a couple of photos of the machines that you can see online. there’d be enough here. I think that between the two On the other hand I caution the artist as there’s going to be a temptation to try and do too much. We have to keep it simple. Any time we don’t they screw it up. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Michael. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mary. Dennis. I agree and had many of the same thoughts as the other committee members who have spoken so far. What stood out to me is, as Bob said, it’s important to kind of capture the industry and the Industrial Revolution. But I also feel that it’s important to capture the human element as well. So I also believe that they -UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Mike, I think the profoundness of your comments have silenced the room. MR. MORAN: I guess so. MR. TUCKER: Oh, I might not be on -- MS. STAFFORD: MR. MORAN: I’m sorry, we need -- Believe me they won’t (inaudible). MS. STAFFORD: Apologies, Mr. Tucker is going to turn his microphone on. MR. TUCKER: Can you hear me now? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: MR. TUCKER: MR. MORAN: MR. TUCKER: MR. MORAN: MR. TUCKER: That’s good. Can you hear me, Mike? Yes, I can, Dennis. Okay, great. You’ve got the floor. Good to hear you. And I agree with the idea of capturing the importance of the industry and the Industrial Revolution in America and also the human element of the mill girls. They might be depicted in full form or perhaps something as subtle as a hand. But I think that those two elements as discussed by other members are main themes that I see as being important for this coin. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Dennis. Kareem, what are your thoughts on this? MR. ABDUL-JABBAR: Well, I recently got caught up with what the focus should be. And I think the whole idea of the humanity of it, the girls I think is a good focus. You know, having them be the primary focus and some of the other elements in the background. MS. LANNIN: Okay. to be coming to the fork. MR. URAM: So far the mill girls seem Tom Uram. Thank you, Madam Chairman. What I was thinking was that since in this thing too the comments from the representatives, I think that the clock might be a good dimension on the coin. To have the clock and then the base of the clock would have all the various humanitarian efforts and maybe the different quadrants, maybe four different quadrants, two different quadrants. But if the clock was so important (inaudible) humanitarian, the work ethic. And I agree with some. I just think that maybe those quadrants and using the clock as part of the entire coin might add a new dimension and something totally new for what we’re looking at. different rivers. buildings. We’ve seen so many We’ve seen so many different This might be something that could encompass the design. MS. LANNIN: driving pull over. MR. VIOLA: Madam Chair. Thank you. Herman. Hello. And Tom, if you’re MS. LANNIN: Herman. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Tom, I can hear you, it’s fine. MS. LANNIN: Okay. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: MS. LANNIN: Okay. I can hear. How about Herman, does he have an opinion? MS. WASTWEET: too. I would -MS. STAFFORD: no. This is Heidi, I’m still here This has to be on. Now it’s Can you hear Mary now? MR. VIOLA: MS. LANNIN: you there? I hear April. Okay. All right. Herman, are Would you like to add? MR. VIOLA: MS. LANNIN: MR. VIOLA: I’m here. Okay. Herman is here. Do you want me next? MS. LANNIN: MR. VIOLA: girls and spindles. MS. LANNIN: Yes, please. Okay. I’m very happy with mill I think that’s what we need. Okay, thanks, Herman. Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you. When we think of national parks I think the first thing that comes to mind is the outdoor hiking (inaudible) and that sort of thing. And this is the prime example of a national park that is not what people expect. very iconic and unique in that sense. It’s -- and it’s And so that I think should be displayed on the coin. I’m looking at pictures of the canals and the clothing and the clock tower. But I think none of that really captures the park’s uniqueness as much as the equipment, the spindles and the technology and if we can appropriate the human element. The challenge is to tear it down to something that is not going to overwhelm the coin. We’ve basically said this a million times, but this is a case where it’s going to be extra challenging, the equipment, the looms and so forth are very complex. And so I request that the artist try to tear down the equipment to its essential abstract components to (inaudible) the actual size. And also if we try to put in too many people that’s going to be difficult. maybe just add a human element and again be very So specific with it and get that uniqueness of the design. That’s it. MS. LANNIN: Thanks Heidi. Okay. April, should we go to the San Antonio Mission? MS. STAFFORD: or Ms. Anstey. Yes. I just invite Mr. Herlihy Is there any -- yes, I’ll just invite Mr. Herlihy or Ms. Anstey to add anything else quickly before we move onto the next site. MR. HERLIHY: I just think that the conversation around the mill girls and the worker and the value of the work is kind of central. And also if there’s a way to capture some of the mechanical elements of this, like a loom and a spindle, well, also tie it into all the technology that was very important and critical in the creation not only of Lowell, but in the United States. The Lowell Machine Shop in the 20th Century, 19th Century was the largest machine shop in the country. And all the equipment and everything was made here in Lowell and went all over the world. So if there is a way to capture that on the coin with the human element I think that people would like that. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: MS. ANSTEY: Thank you. Thank you. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you very much. Moving on -MS. LANNIN: Thank you for your appearance. MS. STAFFORD: -- to An Antonio Missions National Historical Park, which is in Texas. The San Antonio Missions National Historical Park is a reminder of one of Spain’s most successful attempts to extend its territories north from present day Mexico in the 1700s. This largest concentration of Spanish missions in North America helped create the foundation for the City of San Antonio. In large part due to the strength of the communities forged within and between the missions. The park manages four of the five missions in San Antonio, Mission Conception, Mission San Jose, Mission San Juan and Mission Espada. The four mission churches are active Catholic parishes and the National Park Service maintains a strong partnership with the Archdiocese of San Antonio. The park also includes Rancho de las Cabras, the ranch associated with Mission Espada. The missions were built as walled compounds containing the church, living quarters for newly converted Christians and a few soldiers and their families, workshops and store rooms and fortified towers used for defense. Visual evidence of the blending of cultures is evidenced by the 18th Century Spanish style of architecture and the presence of indigenous designs inspired by natural elements. The missions were located close together due the natural resources found nearby, specifically the San Antonio River. Construction of aqueducts and irrigation canals brought water to the missions, which sustained farming and ranching. Toolmaking, carpentry, looming, spinning and masonry further contributed to the community’s ability to be self-sustaining. Today the four missions located within the park are surrounded by urban, residential and business areas, a modern day demonstration of their success. Through discussions with representatives from the historical park we have identified the following possible devices for the quarter. The mission compound itself as a self-sustaining community, including farming and ranching areas outside of walled boundaries. And the toolmaking, carpentry, looming, spinning and masonry that occurred within the mission walls itself. Also architectures of the missions. Both elements of Spanish 18th Century style and indigenous designs inspired by natural elements. Also innovation with water, specifically aqueducts and irrigation canals. Please note that the five missions in San Antonio were designated a UNESCO World Heritage site in 2015. Mission Valero, specifically the Alamo, is part of the UNESCO World Heritage site, but is not part of the San Antonio Missions National Historical Park and therefore should not be part of the coin design. So now I will introduce our liaison with the site, Lauren Gurniewicz, Chief of Interpretation. And I’d invite the CCAC members to call upon Ms. Gurniewicz for any questions or clarifications. MS. LANNIN: Lauren, for attending. begin? Thank you, April. And thank you, Robert, would you like to MR. HOGE: Yes, thank you, Madam President. I think one of the most important things here would be to include an acequia. Because this is a Spanish innovation which was not really widely known in this country and yet was very important for the development of the southwest, particularly this concentration in San Antonio. Though it’s kind of unfortunate that we can’t include the -- pardon the, I’m in the Bronx, pardon the sound of sirens in the background. street music of the Bronx. The That’s why I keep my phone on mute when I’m not speaking. You know, I think if we could show some of the architectural elements that might be good. But it’s a little unfortunate the Mission San Valero, the Alamo is not included in this theme because that, of course, is very iconic. But it’s been shown enough times (inaudible) anyway. So I think if we could find something architectural, something you combine the acequia that might be effective. element. Something that shows a bit of Spanish And I’m sure there are many aspects of showing education, tools and farming and so on that might be incorporated. But I like the idea of the acequia. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Robert. MR. JANSEN: Thanks for joining us, Ms. Gurniewicz. Erik. It’s very helpful to hear your thoughts and getting the benefit of your kind of prioritization and the challenges here. I would feel very, very disserved is this coin turned into a picture of a mission. Let alone the most important question in this write up was “this is not the Alamo.” And if we’re not careful it’s going to end up becoming the Alamo quarter and you guys who are shepherding this historical part are going to get shortchanged. No pun intended. So I would say to the artist please let’s not have a picture of a mission. what a mission is. Let’s focus on showing And that is really the practical way that the creation of life, the culture that becomes the creation of life and protecting and energizing that starting impulse is really the imagery we’re looking for here. It’s mentioned here that there are indigenous designs inspired by natural elements. Antonio (inaudible). I’ve been to San I got a sense of the land and the geography there. What would be some of these indigenous designs that we might be able to extract, Ms. Gurniewicz? Can you help us understand some details there? MS. GURNIEWICZ: Sure. You know, and just to sort of follow up on what both you and Robert said. I completely agree on, you know, I think it would be a disturbance if we only had one of the churches on the coin. Because the ideas was that the church was a mechanism to create a community and to create citizens. So the idea that they were -MR. JANSEN: Exactly. MS. GURNIEWICZ: -- you know, creating agricultural independence, so aceqias are certainly a huge part of that. And socioeconomic independence with business essentially. You know, you have the city growing up around these sites. Some way to convey that the idea of blending of cultures I think would be so cool. Elements where we see that and, you know, I think might present a bit of a challenge, we have frescos. You know, I’m thinking of a few things particularly at Mission Conception. You know, the frescos in real life are in color. So, you know, there may be a way to represent geometric designs. I can think of a sun on the ceiling in particular in one of the rooms at Conception. There are some really elements around the church doors at Conception and San Jose where you see a combination of natural features and saints sort of mixed together sculpturally around doors. I mean there may be things that can be pulled, you know, from the facades of the churches without actually just showing, you know, an imagine of a façade. I love the idea of somehow incorporating water if it is possible, as you were already talking about. You know, it truly was the lifeblood of the missions and it’s the reason that they were placed where they were. ditch. You know, I read the challenge of showing a You know, we talked, I talked with the Mint folks about that. You know, there’s nothing sexy about an irrigation ditch, but it’s an important part of the story here. So, you know, I don’t know how that could be done, but if it’s possible. You know, I’m thinking of things like also like architectural like arches. There may be a way to show like there’s sort of iconic images of the convenantal at Mission San Jose. And, you know, I don’t know how that would convey on the coin. But certainly architectural elements of some sort could be kind of neat as well. MR. JANSEN: Well, to the artist I think this could be an overwhelming challenge with the temptation of just falling back on some architectural archway of some such. Yeah, I think the asking for success here is creating a coin can inspire people to see and learn (inaudible) here. The essence, the challenge here is not to tell the whole story, but to latch into a captivating element of it with an image, an icon, a symbolic piece which inspires, not explains. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Erik. along here I think a little bit. We need to move Jeanne, what do you have for an idea? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you, Madam Chair. I believe that to have some architectural element that is almost abstracted, you know, that would maybe blend into the aqueducts or the landscaping or somehow indicate how that mission was important in a sparse environment. And I believe this is going to be difficult for the artists to convey, but I think it’s important to somehow, as Lauren mentioned, that we have some element of the missions. And that’s all I hope to see on there, something that’s very simple, but will help people understand that it is about the missions in the national park. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Thank you, Jeanne. Mr. Moran. Mary, I’m going to make your day. (Inaudible) I’ll pass. MS. LANNIN: you. Oh, bless you, Michael, thank Dennis. MR. TUCKER: Make sure I turn this on. Okay. If I could speak for just a moment, I want to discuss a little bit about how I looked at these five coins as a program rather than individually as I was studying them. This helped me I think avoid ending up with five scenes of wildlife or five scenes of buildings, five scenes of recreation, you know, all the year 2019. And I can categorize these parks as, one, that focuses on American industry, one that focuses on Catholic civilization, one on natural wilderness, war memorial and a site that honors military service. For the San Antonio Missions National Historical Park something that stood out to me was a way that the park itself describes itself on its website. In its literature they emphasize that by entering a mission the native people who were under attack by Apaches, by disease and other challenges they made an agreement to foreswear their traditional life and accept a new religion and pledge fealty to the Spanish king. new king. So they end up with a new religion and a At the risk of combining church and state I might suggest that this coin prominently feature a Christian Catholic crucifix as representative of that aspect of the missions. And that might be combined with imagery of native South Texas, a Spanish flag or coat of arms representing the kind and all of this perhaps in combination with some of the indigenous imagery that’s been discussed. MS. LANNIN: Okay, thank you, Dennis. MR. ABDUL-JABBAR: MS. LANNIN: Okay. I will pass. Tom Uram. Kareem. MR. URAM: idea of the ditch. Thanks, Madam Chairman. I like the Except to have to numismatically correct I think that we could call it a cracked eye. And now let me keep going this. (Inaudible) the average artists wants to interpret it with it going down the center or at an angle or whatever. And then on the -- what Dennis just mentioned some of the different, whether it be a (inaudible) you could have on each side of the cracked eye, but you would still get your ditch in there. But I just (inaudible) somewhat creating in interpreting it and not having our normal water as we would have it on (inaudible) that we’ve tried to do in the past. that at this point. Thank you, Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: MR. VIOLA: So that’s my thought on That’s Tom. Herman. I as a product of Jesuit education result I kind of like the idea of the crucifix. But also tied into it the indigenous designs if that would somehow be possible. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: All right, thank you, Herman. Heidi, what do you have to say? MS. WASTWEET: I’m afraid we might be stepping into some (inaudible). No matter how appropriate the topic that’s just maybe too risky. And (inaudible) is there any legal outline that we would consider in representing a religion on a coin? MR. WEINMAN: This is Greg. We’re always careful about this. When we have featured religious symbols before we only do so when it is more about the history or something more tied in a more secular way to the item being commemorated as opposed to its religiosity. And so I think how it’s displayed is obviously relevant. But you’re right we’d probably be -- have to be very careful here. I’m not sure there’d be any way to feature a crucifix as a dominant device and separate it from its religiosity in this case. I’m not sure it’s quite tied to the mission in the same way. However, if there were sort of an architectural element presented in the mission that might have religious significance, but they’re really more about the architectural elements, then that’s where we would say I think that’s a device is appropriate to be used on US coinage. not too obtuse. I hope that’s MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Greg. That’s very helpful, yeah. MR. JANSEN: And in any case the idea that was surfaced of merging some culturally symbolic icons of what the mission really is, it’s supporting a changed view of the world I think is a really powerful one. If the artists are willing to work that idea and come up with some parings or some contrasting images I think that’s a really powerful idea. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Eric. My idea for something very simple for this coin, I assume that all of these missions have bells, did they not Lauren? MS. GURNIEWICZ: MS. LANNIN: Yes. Okay. So what if we had sort of the idea of a view through an arch or, you know, with a bell tower or something and what you’re looking at is you’re looking at a vast open space. And somehow we can indicate that there’s agriculture or canals beyond that. So just so those two elements, it takes away from the religion, but the bells to let people know that it’s a mission. And we’ve got the aquifers in there, the acequia, I can’t even say that today. MS. STAFFORD: MS. LANNIN: missions were special. Acequias. Acequias to remind you of why the So those would be my thoughts on that. Thank you, Lauren. MS. STAFFORD: April. Okay. Anything else from our liaison to the San Antonio Missions? MS. GURNIEWICZ: Yes, I will say, you know, I think we’re always on that sideline with, you know, the reality is that we’re in a long term partnership with the Archdiocese of San Antonio. active Catholic parishes. And, you know, we’re And (inaudible) of folks converting to Catholicism here. But I do think there would be some discomfort on the part of the park serviced in having a crucifix on the coin. But with that said I really do think that there are some pretty remarkable elements in some of the stone carvings on the façade that could be pulled out that would clearly be Catholic symbols, but wouldn’t quite be so difficult I think because -- you know, I think the subject matter it’s just interesting how I think it could create challenges. So I would like to see some sort of mixing of the native and the Spanish elements. I mean we’ve got Catholic iconography is some way. But I feel pretty strongly that our Parks Superintendent would be pretty uncomfortable with the crucifix on the coin. MS. STAFFORD: MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much. Thank you, Lauren. MS. STAFFORD: Alrighty, moving onto -- MS. WASTWEET: This is Heidi, can I add? I want to (inaudible) my comments. MS. LANNIN: Certainly. MS. WASTWEET: liaison. Thanks. I agree with the I’m looking online at images of the missions and there are some really beautiful opportunities for architectural elements. I agree that we don’t necessarily want a static image of a building. But there’s lots of opportunities for interesting angles and little details of the architecture that can be really attractive on the coin without trying to (inaudible), but would be more obtuse. And so I would encourage the artists to go that area as well. That’s it. MS. LANNIN: MS. STAFFORD: Thank you, Heidi. Thank you so much. Moving onto Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness in Idaho. The Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness is comprised of endless rugged mountains, deep canyons and wild white water rivers. Few places in America, and nowhere outside of Alaska, provide an experience to match the sheer magnitude of this vast wilderness where the sense of remoteness is often heralded as one of its prevailing attributes. The Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness encompasses over 2.3 million acres, is the largest single contiguous wilderness in the continental United States and encompasses four national forests. of the wilderness has two roots. The name The River of No Return component derives from when boats could navigate down the main Salmon River, but not back upstream due to the fast water and numerous rapids. can navigate upstream. Today jet boats The name of Frank Church was attached in 1984 to honor the man who worked to preserve this wilderness. The wilderness is dominated by three dramatic mountain ranges. One of them, The Bighorn Crags, form a jagged series of summits with at least one topping 10,000 feet and surround 14 strikingly beautiful clear water lakes. The mountains within the wilderness are a paradise for horse packers, among other recreational pursuits. The Salmon River Canyon is one of the deepest gorges in North America, deeper even than the Grand Canyon. The Salmon River Canyon is known for their variety of landscapes visible from the river. Within this canyon salmon participate in the largest inland migration in the continental United States, including jumping upstream into water falls as high as four feet. The rivers are some of the west’s premiere white water rivers and draw many avid white water rafters, especially in sweep and drift boats. Through discussions with representatives from Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness we have identified the following possible devices for the quarter. Elements of the natural landscape, including the remoteness of the wilderness. the Salmon River Canyon. Canyons, including River, such as the main Salmon River and middle fork of the Salmon River. Mountain ranges, including Salmon River Mountains, Clear Water Mountains and Bighorn Crags. the wildlife. Chinook salmon. Then there is Fish, such as steelhead trout and Mammals, including Bighorn sheep, elk, wolves, bald and golden eagles. As well as the idea of good habitat management or “leave no trace”. Recreation elements may include horse packing, such as depicting animals with gear, and white water rafting, such as sweep boats and drift boats. So now I’d like to introduce our liaisons from Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness. Cheri Ford, Deputy Forest Supervisor. We have And Denis Kuhnel from the National Forest Middle Fork District Ranger. Would you be able to say a few words or would you just like to take questions from the committee members? MS. FORD: Thank you, Madam Chair. This is Cheri Ford and (inaudible) and we appreciate the opportunity to represent only the (inaudible) but Clear Water National Forest, the (inaudible) National Forest and also the (inaudible) National Forest. And they’re the four forests that we -MS. STAFFORD: Cheri, I’m sorry to interrupt. Some of us are having a hard time hearing you. If there’s any way to get closer to the phone or turn up the volume perhaps. MS. FORD: You bet. MS. STAFFORD: MS. FORD: How is this? Thank you. Better? Okay, thank you. Yeah, so I was just saying that I really appreciate the opportunity to represent the Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness. And I guess I was just trying to point out the vastness of this area. summarized. It was really And when you think about 2.3 million acres (inaudible) for a national forest it’s really amazing. And the natural landscape that we have potentially (inaudible). really great. The things that you went through that was And the fact that, you know, we’re talking about (inaudible) that travel all the way to Mississippi it’s just an amazing opportunity to (inaudible) in the area within the (inaudible) that it really epitomizes wilderness and the wilderness (inaudible). MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Cheri. begin with our first member Robert Hoge. I’d like to And I’d like to remind all of our members if we could keep the comments as brief and as thoughtful as possible. really do have some time constraints today. MR. HOGE: We Robert. Well, thank you, Mary. First of all I think this is one of the most difficult concepts to try to present. It’s the largest wildlife area in the continent, a vast amount of material. And also when we’re confronted with terms like (inaudible) it leave us kind of wondering. However, I think this might be a really good opportunity for us to represent some wildlife. And I would highly recommend using the Chinook salmon, which is a very distinctive looking fish. And giving (inaudible) the river. of things, the wildlife. There’s a lot And the form of migration, which I think is of course to consider. But there are of course many other possibilities here with something so magnificent and beautiful. Maybe even an occasion for us to represent wolves, which I don’t think have been given very much attention in numismatic (inaudible). Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Okay, thanks Robert. Erik. MR. JANSEN: I have had the fortune of actually packing and rafting this area and it is incredible. Now, having said that I really hope we don’t end up with another picture of (inaudible) and profile or a (inaudible) horizon to make this thing look in contrast or some mountain skyline. that would be a lost opportunity here. I think Having said that I’m short of having great ideas, other than saying the following. For the one who was there you are experiencing the extraordinary geographical contrast of which is (inaudible) an amazing harsh river. wise maybe there is a packer symbol. white water rafting. Imagery Maybe there is (Inaudible) a wooden frame in the (inaudible) Grand Canyon was (inaudible). (Inaudible) Ms. Ford and Mr. Kuhnel, if you have any images that come to your mind please put them in the mix here, would you please? Because we’re going to be struggling, as Robert says, with representing the infinite here and representing the wilderness epic here. And I think there’s an enormous opportunity here. Perhaps (inaudible) I don’t know. But if you guys could kick out some images, as opposed to pictures, which you think might be appropriate (inaudible) to your constituents. MS. LANNIN: Are you asking that of Cheri or Dennis? MS. FORD: MR. JANSEN: MS. FORD: Yeah. I am. Thank you. This is Cheri and just wanted to mention that Dennis and I just had that same conversation. And you really did a great job of describing that on the ground experience. And the things that we really thought about and the opportunities, the highlights, the middle fork of the Salmon River and the main stretch of the Salmon River. And the deep crags, that vast -- the deep canyon walls. Potential to show a little bit of information like a (inaudible) of how you pack in your equipment when you’re coming in for a week-long stay. Because the wilderness is so big it takes a long time to penetrate. So to be able to carry (inaudible) on your back are impossible. So (inaudible). MR. JANSEN: MS. FORD: mule. The pack (inaudible). Yeah, so packing, of course, of the Also the use of the river from the recreation standpoint is a pretty awesome opportunity. I mean very few people (inaudible) one in three hundred. So it’s very -- it’s a very rare opportunity (inaudible). But it’s also an amazing whitewater, some of the best whitewater we have across the country. So I think those are some of the things, the Chinook salmon that is the species that we really kind of focus on as well because of that amazing feat to get there. MR. JANSEN: Well, I would hate to see this quarter be a redo of the Washington State quarter, which is a mountain and a salmon. MR. KUHNEL: Erik. Yeah. No, we agree with you, And I would just like to point out, this is Dennis Kuhnel, that I think if it’s possible that some of the -- an artistic depiction of some of the recreation that happens in the Frank Church that these recreational activities, such as the pack trains or, you know, rafting on the river, that I think has the potential to convey a sense of extreme remoteness and enormity that we were talking about. And I think there’s -MR. JANSEN: Thank. MR. KUHNEL: -- (inaudible) than just having a scenic view as you say. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much, Dennis. MR. JANSEN: Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Jeanne. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you, Mary. I think that as I was doing some research on my own, the Bighorn Crags were so sculpturally magnificent in the fact that there are spirous (ph?), they’re granite. Little tiny trees grow out from their cracks, which might be something a little different than what we have from mountain scenes. Perhaps the artist could capture the almost architectural value that these crags, that these kind of crags have. Maybe pack horse string could, pack string could wind around the bottom of these without having too much information on a small coin. I think this is going to be a challenge, a huge challenge to somehow incorporate “leave no trace”, to incorporate recreation and also the vastness. So perhaps we can encourage our artists to take a tiny piece and enlarge it so that, you know, we have the magnificence of this park. And also a drawing that would help our -- people want to go to this and support the national parks. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Thanks, Jeanne. Okay, Mary. Michael. Listening to everybody this is a wilderness area. Human encouragements are restricted you can see that. about the animals. It’s I do not think you can show very much in the way of architectural features without basically going down the river in terms of the art. would be very difficult. for the wolf. It (Inaudible) for the salmon or I think the only it’s the only opportunity we’ll have to put a wolf on a quarter. we’ve already got Yellowstone done. And It is certainly iconic of wilderness, of the right of survival. And I think that’s where I would be going if I were the artist. MS. LANNIN: Thanks Michael. Dennis. MR. TUCKER: I generally like to see a human element on these coins because I think it encourages people to visit the parks, as others have mentioned. But I think because of the magnitude and remoteness of Idaho’s wilderness I think that a scene of natural wilderness with no human activity is what I would recommend. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Dennis. MR. ABDUL-JABBAR: Kareem. Well, I going with Michael in that the wolf is a really great iconic animal that would represent the American west. I think featuring that landscape will convey what we want it to convey. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: Thank you. Tom. I concur with my colleagues (inaudible) great discussion and I’ll pass. MS. LANNIN: MR. VIOLA: Thank you. Herman. I like the idea of the Bighorn Stag and I like the idea of the wolf maybe in the foreground of that. And thank you. MS. LANNIN: MS. WASTWEET: Thanks Herman. Thank you. Heidi. I would advise against, on the (inaudible) that I’m looking at, it was against the eagle, as not being unique enough to separate it from other coins. the horse packing. I do like the idea of I spent 30 years in Idaho and I know this is a huge culture and I think it speaks both to the history of the landscape and to what (inaudible) recreation (inaudible) and it’s an activity that hasn’t changed much in the last 100 years. unique opportunity there. And that’s a And to have a pack train (inaudible) across the (inaudible) is really attractive. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Great, thank you so very much. April. MS. STAFFORD: Alrighty. Thank you Cheri and Dennis, by the way, very much. MS. LANNIN: Yes, thank you. MR. KUHNEL: And Cheri and I would like to thank all of you too for all your work. We really appreciate it. MS. STAFFORD: Wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. MS. STAFFORD: Moving onto American Memorial Park in the Northern Mariana Islands. I’d just like to ask is our liaison Jim Richardson on the line? MR. RICHARDSON: MS. STAFFORD: you. Yes, I am. Thank you. Good morning. Good morning to Mr. Richardson is the liaison for both the American Memorial Park, as well as the Pacific National Historical Park. The American Memorial Park honors the thousands of American military and local residents who gave their lives during the Marianas Campaign of World War Two. It honors the sacrifices made during the campaign at three distinct locations within the park. The Memorial Court of Honor in Flag Circle, the Marianas Memorial dedicated to the indigenous people who perished and the Carillon Bell Tower. The Marianas Campaign began on June 15th, 1944 when United States Marines landed on Saipan’s beaches to face the Japanese forces occupying the island. Supported in their efforts by Naval and Army Corp US Army Infantry and the Coastguard, the island was secured by US forces on July 9th. With Japanese supply and communication lines cut off and B-29 bombers now able to launch from this location in range of the Japanese mainland, the allies paved their way toward victory. The Marianas Campaign also included the battle for the Island of Tinian and battle of the Philippine’s Sea also known as the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot. The park’s 133 acres include white beaches, sporting areas, picnic sites, playgrounds and walkways. A series of wayside markers located throughout the island describe historical events and artifacts, such as the maneuvers of both American and Japanese troops and architectural remnants. The Memorial Court of Honor and Flag Circle was dedicated on the 50th anniversary of the American landings on Saipan. The American flag is proudly displayed at the center, surrounded the flags of the United States Navy, Marine Corp, Army and Coastguard. Designed to honor those who sacrificed their lives during the campaign, the Memorial Court of Honor consists of 26 graves -UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: MS. STAFFORD: (Inaudible). I would just encourage anyone listening in to mute your phones unless you’re talking. Thank you. Sorry about that. The Memorial Court of Honor consists of 26 granite panels inscribed with the names of 5,204 service personnel who perished. Through discussions with representatives from American Memorial Park we’ve identified the following possible devices for the quarter. The Memorial Court of Honor and Flag Circle, the Marianas Memorial, the Bell Tower, and of course any composition that depicts the importance of the Marianas Campaign to World War II. Again, our liaison is Jim Richardson and he is available for any questions or comments that the CCAC requests of him. Madam Chair. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much. Jim, I have a question before we begin to talk about this and also the Pacific National Historical Park. I don’t want to have two coins that look pretty much interchangeable. And so I would like your thoughts first on what you think differentiates one part from the other. MR. RICHARDSON: Yes. Well, specific at National Memorial Park is really just to remember the battle for the Marianas. And as for the islands of Saipan, Tinian and the Battle of the Philippine Sea. Now, over on (inaudible) that specifically commemorates the Battle for Guam, but the larger the entire war in the Pacific. So there are different emphasis that specifically (inaudible) by Congress. to differentiate your track. And we do want MS. LANNIN: Okay, thank you very much for clarifying that, Mr. Richardson. MR. HOGE: All right, Robert. You have me go first every time, so I don’t get to (inaudible) -MS. LANNIN: MR. HOGE: MS. LANNIN: Yeah. -- (inaudible). And guess what, it will be the next one too. MR. HOGE: Yeah. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You won the lottery, Robert. MR. HOGE: Yeah. It’s difficult to differentiate I think very well (inaudible). Probably for the American Memorial Park in the Marianas we really would want to simply give some kind of honor to the people who lost their lives there. So maybe showing (inaudible) the panel, the flag is where the emphasis should be in this. I don’t see how we can really much farther than that. We could show beautiful beaches and, you know, maybe some jungle scenes. But I don’t think that really relates to what we’re trying to do today. And I might just add my remarks here on Guam since I’ll probably have to go first then also. MS. LANNIN: MR. HOGE: Yes. Yeah. And won’t be able to pass indifference to my colleague’s remarks. I would suggest that in the case of Guam we maybe go the other direction and try to show simply of the biodiversity there. It think that’s really appropriate, the most biodiversity of any of our parks. And so if we can then show something of the jungle vegetation I think this might be important. And I’ll let it go there. Any other possibilities can be brought up for consideration. I’ll pass now. MS. LANNIN: Thank you so much, Robert. Erik. MR. JANSEN: Oh, Robert, the challenge of having your (inaudible) exposed to all. MR. HOGE: MR. JANSEN: Yes, always first. Yeah. April thank you so much to you and your team for the background work, the preparation of these documents. Years ago we just (inaudible) without any pre-cursing discussions. I don’t think that (inaudible) was also something to get. So I am so much appreciating the opportunity to build on top of this kind of (inaudible) that you guys developed and bring the liaisons in here. you, thank you, thank you. And I thank And Mary, thanks for giving us the time to discuss this and create clarity like you did just now in trying to differentiate this American Memorial Park coin from the Guan coin. Because the two, as I read them, almost felt like two halves of a single. So thank you for that kind of thoughtfulness in this whole process. And Mr. Richardson, thank you for being up so early. I’m on the west coast and I’m used to being (inaudible) in the morning. But I also don’t happen to be the tallest guy on the committee anymore. So I’m thankful for all the people (inaudible) on the west coast. I think the important point here is we don’t need a quarter that looks like Iwo Jima putting a flag in the air. It’s an iconic image that if we’re not careful I think we could drift into something like that here. There were a lot of comments. I think the views about the lives and the commitment and the progress. But I think there’s an important point here, which I’m not sure a (inaudible) tower or necessarily a flag circle or some image like that would carry forth. And that is the hero nature of the war in the Pacific how it literally was driven by the tactical imperative of getting physical premises close enough to Japan to win the war with a frontal attack on their homeland. And if I’m not mistaken here, and help me out, Mr. Richardson, is that not a key piece of this, that this was a logistical geographical key piece in that process? MR. RICHARDSON: It was a key strategic decision that this was an important to take early rather than other locations. Specifically because it was roundtrip (inaudible) distance for -- to Japan. MR. JANSEN: So I’d challenge to (inaudible) and to an architect, excuse me, artistic rendering. But I’m not an artist here. I’m just trying to inspire an artist to come up with a way of showing that commitment, lives, military intention, geographical imperative here. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank Erik. Erik, as long as you’re on the -- why don’t we talk about Guam. And I’ll have April read that really quickly so that we can get through this. We still have the congressional gold medal for the OSS to go through and we only have 20 minutes. MS. STAFFORD: Okay, very quickly. The war in the -MR. JANSEN: MR. STAFFORD: Okay, go ahead. Sorry. The War in the Pacific National Historical Park in Guam is the westernmost part of all the national park service units. It was established in 1978 to commemorate the bravery, courage and sacrifice of those participating in the campaigns of the Pacific theater in World War II. The park tells the story of how the US took the Pacific theater island by island. At the historical park the formal battlefields, gun emplacements, trenches and historic structures all serve as reminders of key World War II battles. More than 100 sites, including caves, bunkers, krill boxes, plaques and other military structures can be seen throughout the War in the Pacific’s landscape. Perhaps the most iconic memorial in the park is the Asan Bay Overlook. In addition to sweeping views of the landing beaches, Opera Harbor and seaside villages, there are brown sculptures depicting events that took place on Guam. The Memorial Wall of Names lists the military personnel killed, as well as local residents who lost their lives or suffered during the Japanese occupation. Other memorials include the Marine Landing Memorial, the Liberators Memorial and the An (phonetic) Point flag display. The The park also converses and interprets a variety of amazing resources found on Guam and has the highest biological diversity of any national park. The majority of the diversity is found in the marine life. Over 3500 marine species and 200 species of coral are located within the scuba and snorkeling areas of the park’s waters. Including the endangered hawk’s bill sea turtle and the threatened green sea turtle. Over 400 terrestrial species are found within the park. Within the park’s boundaries lie coral reefs, sea grass beds, tropical savannah grasslands, limestone forests, thogs (phonetic), streams, coastal and forest wetlands and a mahogany forest. Snorkeling, fishing and exploring the coral reefs are among some of the favorite recreational activities enjoyed by visitors. Additionally, using traditional throw nets to fish is a popular activity. Through discussions with representatives from the historical park we’ve identified the following possible devices for the quarter, some of which committee members have already identified. Memorials including Asan Bay Overlook, the Marine Landing Memorial the An Point Flag Display and the Memorial Day Flag Display where volunteers create an impressive scene by placing United States and Guan flags with tea lights on the beach. Also natural elements, such as the hawk’s bill sea turtle, green sea turtle and coral reefs, and recreational elements like snorkeling or fishing with traditional throw nets. MS. LANNIN: Thank you very much. Okay, quickly, can we go through these two national parks? Erik, if you could comment on Guan. MR. JANSEN: Robert, (inaudible) and you can stay in the trenches for a later opinion on Guam. really only have one thought. I At the risk of splitting a one-inch pallet into two half one-inch pallets, the Guam story to me just invites the before and after treatment. A diagonal slash through the coin with the upper left-hand corner being the struggle, the military story picture image, and the lower right being preservation of paradise. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Thank you, Erik. Jeanne, on both please. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: difficult choice to make. Thank you. This was a And I’m going to do this as quickly as I can without any disrespect for what these parks represent. But I think somehow with the Mariana Islands we do have to honor that memorial Court of Honor. And I know that’s a lot of flags, but if we somehow could depict that. While the Guam part maybe I have to agree with Erik, that we have, you know, the before and after story of what honors these people that were sacrificing their lives and what honors what is now the paradise of the park. So how can we bring -- how can the artist or we as a group bring these things into combination? Thank you. I don’t have any other opinion. MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Thanks Jeanne. Yes, Mary. Okay, Michael. As far as the North Mariana’s go, I think we have an opportunity here to honor the indigenous people who died during that invasion. And the taking of the (inaudible) from the Japanese. There is a Marianas memorial. I think we get caught in a trap if we try and do World War II memorials on either of these two quarters, specifically to our own armed forces. We’ve got other opportunities to honor them in many other ways. I think this is an opportunity to honor the people who were almost innocent bystanders in North Marianas. In regards to Guam I think this is the one placed we have a unique opportunity to do an underwater seabed with the coral reefs. I don’t think we have any underwater parks that are involved with the sea bottom. And I really don’t like the idea of going with the before and after because there is just no way on a quarter guys, Give it up, it won’t happen. mess. It’ll be a That’s it for me. MS. LANNIN: Thanks Mike. Dennis. MR. TUCKER: I think our artist needs to resist the temptation to be distracted by what exists within these parks, the beaches, the turtles, things like that, and should remember why they were created. American Memorial Park is a war memorial site. War in the Pacific National Historical Park is a site of military honor. For the Northern Marianas we should memorialize those who died in the Marianas Campaign. And I think visually the Memorial Court of Honor and Flag Circle does that. The challenge there would be how to depict that very iconic scene on a quarter. But that’s for the artist to figure out. For Guam, this is a site that honors the bravery and sacrifices of everybody who participated in the Pacific theater whether they died or not. So it’s not a memorial site, but it’s a site of military honor. And for this coin I would recommend a scene of military action in the Pacific and would leave that up to the artist to capture. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Dennis. Kareem, do you have anything to add for both of these national parks? MR. ABDUL-JABBAR: Well, I think the whole idea of the sea life, the hawk’s bill sea turtle and the green sea turtle are great. They’re iconic and they’re beautiful and it’s a pretty simple thing to do that right on a small (inaudible) like a quarter. MS. LANNIN: Kareem, you haven’t been on the committee longer than about ten minutes, but we’ve been shot down on every turtle design we ever wanted. Just to let you know. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The third time’s a charm. MS. LANNIN: The third time’s a charm. The third time’s a charm. MR. SCARINCI: Mary, just so you know I’m on the phone. MS. LANNIN: Well, Donald, nice to talk with you. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Ah, it’s the turtle guy himself. MS. LANNIN: Yes. MR. SCARINCI: You’re talking about -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: just cannot be blocked. We need a turtle that MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: something to say? No. Donald, do you quickly have We’re really running very short of time for these last two for the American Memorial Park and Northern Marianas. MR. SCARINCI: Here’s my comment. And I think I’m going to love Kareem because he seems to be -- he’s not saying it quite the way I’m about to say it, but -MR. MORAN: Yeah, he’s using your words, Donald. (Laughing.) MR. MORAN: That was Mike by the way. So he knows who to (inaudible) after this MR. SCARINCI: Let me try to keep it brief, because I’m looking at the most beautiful beach on the planet earth. MS. LANNIN: MR. SCARINCI: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But try to keep it brief. The -- I think Congress does a very good job of passing commemorative coin legislation that commemorates and honors military subjects. And, you know, and that includes, you know, congressional gold medals. I would prefer, and you all know how I feel about this, historically, you know, I think we have a preponderance, you know, for a nation of democracy and a great nation of innovation and a great nation for technology and economics, we portray ourselves to the world through our coins in a military way. And I think that -- I obviously don’t think that’s intentional. I think it just happens because that seems to the popular things to commemorate with our commemorative coins and our gold medals. I think this is an opportunity -- this is about the parks. And, yes, the parks have to do, you know, with these military things. But the things also celebrate wildlife and they celebrate beauty in nature. And these islands, you know, independent of their historical significance in World War II, you know, are themselves beautiful islands and beautiful preserves. And that’s what World War II is really all about, it was to preserve and protect. And I think we should honor on the coins what we’re preserving and protecting, not how we chose or were able to preserve and protect. And not war certainly. They’re not islands of war, they’re beautiful places. And they have unique, you know, a (inaudible) unique animal life. And I think, you know, that, you know, they also both have a very -- and the artists are going to have to be told, they’re going to have to look at the commemorative stamps and these commemorative coins that get issued with these island names on them, because there’s a huge, a huge body of this material out there. And we don’t want to duplicate, you know, that body of material. So the artists are going to have to be conscious of the postage stamps, conscious of the coins in this case that are different from what we’ve looked at before in the series. And finally, you know, so I guess in summary I would stay away from the war stuff. And let’s look at these islands for their other features. keep legislating about war coins. Let Congress But where we have a choice not to put a war thing, we should choose not to put a war thing. And I think that the artist really are going to have to in this case be told to look for the stamps and look for what’s been done here, because a lot’s been done here. These are not overdone, they’re greatly overdone. So we even have a quarter, you know, that commemorates some of the very first, you know, it’s our state’s, you know, art. You know, if you remember the territory quarters they commemorate these things. So we can’t duplicate, we don’t want to duplicate or even come close to duplicating, you know, what’s in the state quarter series. We did that before, we don’t want to do it again. So this is probably the shortest I’ve ever been and probably, you know, but that’s okay, you know, it’s a beautiful day. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Donald. little bit backwards. Heidi, do you have any comments? MS. WASTWEET: MS. LANNIN: All right. Tom. I pass to Don right now. MS. LANNIN: you’ve amazed us all. okay. Herman. I can’t top that either. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: I can’t top that. Okay. MR. VOILA: Let’s go a Okay. Donald, you’re just, Kareem. You’ve already talked, So any further discussion from Mr. Richardson? MR. RICHARDSON: they’re very interesting. Listening to your discussions There are many opportunities. I look forward to seeing the artist’s renditions and ideas on this. But there is no doubt that neither of these parks (inaudible) but for the history importance from World War II. That’s the critical reason for their being. MS. LANNIN: Thank you very much, Mr. Richardson. MR. SCARINCI: For their being for us. know, from a United States perspective. critical reason for their being. beautiful places. You It’s not a My God, they’re They’re islands that stand independent and alone until we took them. MS. LANNIN: Okay. All right, Donald, thank you. We have to get to the Congressional Gold Medal for the Office of Strategic Services. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you, Madam Chair. It is public law 114.269 that awards the Congressional Gold Medal collectively to the members of the Office of Strategic Services in recognition of their superior service and major contributions during World War II. The Office Strategic Services or OSS was America’s first effort to implement a system of strategic intelligence during World War II and provided the basis for our modern day intelligence and special operations communities. The OSS was made up of members from all of the military branches, as well as civilian personnel. The OSS was established on June 13th, 1942 by a presidential military order to collect and analyze strategic information and to conduct special operations. Led by William J. Donovan, known as Wild Bill, the OSS employed almost 13,000 men and women at its peak. An ideal OSS candidate was described as “a PhD who could win a bar fight.” And Donovan described OSS personnel as his “glorious armatures”. From 1942 to 1945 the men and women of the OSS were part of a shadow war behind the scenes and behind enemy lines around the world. A super-secret agency during war, the OSS gathered and analyzed intelligence, demoralized the enemy through disinformation and black propaganda, engaged encounter intelligence, developed new weapons and means of communication, supplied and guided local resistance movements and helped contribute to the victories of America and its allies in North Africa, Europe and Asia. Donovan said OSS personnel performed some of the greatest acts of the war. The OSS was made up of 11 branches covering a wide variety of tasks. Although the OSS was dissolved at the end of World War II it has had a lasting legacy. As America’s first national centralized intelligence agency with thousands of clandestine operatives, spies and intelligence analysts the OSS is acknowledged as the predecessor of the Central Intelligence Agency, the US Special Operations Command and the State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research. While the OSS did not ever have an officially approved insignia, the OSS spearhead was proposed by William J. Donovan and later modified for use by the US Special Operations Command and the CIA’s Directorate of Operations to emphasize their OSS heritage. We’re very fortunate to have with us today our liaison for this Congressional Gold Medal Charles Pinck, President of the OSS Society. So Mr. Pinck is here to answer any of our CCAC members questions or provide clarification where needed. MS. LANNIN: Would you like to add anything now, Mr. Pinck, before we discuss anything? MR. PINCK: No. I want to think Megan for writing that really perfectly succinct description of the OSS. MS. LANNIN: MR. PINCK: better job myself. She’s awesome. I’m sure I could have done a And I do want to share with you, I think I found the perfect audience for my favorite OSS story. It’ll be brief. But at the end of World War II when the OSS was dissolved its core components were transferred to the War Department and it was known as the Strategic Services Unit. It’s director was General William Buffalo Bill Quinn, not William Wild Bill Donovan. CIA. And in the mid-1990s he was given an award at And I went to the ceremony and he told a story that when he was head of the Strategic Services Unit two Treasury agents came to see him because he had two of the world’s greatest forgers working for him. Because during World War II General Donovan had them released from prison to work for the OSS. we should put them on the coin. And I think MS. LANNIN: MR. PINCK: My goodness. No, I think that description was really just perfect. MS. LANNIN: MR. PINCK: Nothing to add. MS. LANNIN: number one. Great. So, Robert, here you go again, Numero uno. MR. HOGE: Oh, yeah, yeah. Why is it always me? MS. LANNIN: MR. HOGE: Just because. Okay. I think this is a kind of difficult subject for one reason, because it was intended to be clandestine. is what is hidden. conveying this. So what this is all about Maybe if there’s some way of I mean something through (inaudible) through maybe some duplicity, half of something, half of something else. Another aspect was we might want even to defer here would be portrayal of Wild Bill Donovan. I don’t know that much of the way of other recognition. Yet he is the recipient of the four highest United States military awards. (Inaudible) Distinguished Service Medal, national security medal and the silver, not to mention the Silver Star, the Purple Heart. And maybe we could show partly him and partly in disguise or something, I don’t know. there are opportunities here. But But I think this might take some cleverness and deviousness on the part of artists to capture what this is all about. MS. LANNIN: MR. PINCK: Thank you. Yes. Can I comment? MR. CHAMBERS: Madam Secretary, Charles Pinck brought several consultants here. MR. PINCK: Yeah, I wanted to introduce our historian. MR. CHAMBERS: This is Professor John Chambers at Rutgers University. Can we become part of the exchange? MS. LANNIN: you so much. Absolutely, Mr. Chambers. Is Mr. O’Donnell there as well? MR. O’DONNELL: MS. LANNIN: MR. PINCK: MR. WALLER: MR. PINCK: Yes, I am. Thank you. Well, welcome. And is Doug Waller there? Yes, I’m here. So Doug Waller wrote -- he’s Thank written Disciples, which is the story of the four CI veterans who served as director of CIA that was just most recently published. And then before that Wild Bill Donovan, which is the biography of General Donovan. Pat O’Donnell has written numerous books about the OSS. Most recently The First Seals, which tells the story of the OSS maritime unit, which is the predecessor to the Navy Seals. And John Chambers wrote a study for the National Park Service about the OSS’s use of the national parks during World War II. And including Prince William, Forest County and Camp David. MS. LANNIN: MR. PINCK: Great. Yeah, sure. MS. LANNIN: time constraints. here at 2:45. So, again, we are under extreme It is 2:28 and we must be out of So Erik. MR. CHAMBER: again. Thank you so much. So this is Professor Chambers Would you like me to respond to some of the themes, the possibilities that the -MS. LANNIN: Certainly. MR. CHAMBERS: mentioned? Will you -- -- previous speakers had just MS. LANNIN: Yes, yes. MR. CHAMBERS: Yes. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: MS. LANNIN: Yes, you may. He can’t hear you. This is on, isn’t it? MR. CHAMBERS: MS. LANNIN: Okay, (inaudible). Yes, you may proceed. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: MR. CHAMBERS: Okay. Go ahead. Well, some themes would be if we’re talking about the OSS, courage, bravery, daring, innovative. Certainly secret, both in the United States it was secret and overseas it was secret. They operated behind enemy lines both as spies and which would be difficult to portray. But more perhaps (inaudible) could be the sabotagors. These are amateurs. Donovan was proud of the fact that which he called “glorious amateurs”. That is these were not professional soldiers, but they were civilians who volunteered directly for the OSS or had been drafted or volunteered in the military and then came from the military into the OSS. So they’re volunteers, they’re informal, kind of non-descript off in uniforms. (Inaudible) UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: MR. CHAMBERS: Pardon me? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: MR. CHAMBERS: Partisans Partisans. Yes, they were aiding. They were aiding and guiding, dropping them by parachutes, sometimes by submarine. Usually they’ll parachute behind enemy lines and guiding and helping to organize and supply the partisans, the gorillas behind enemy lines. And so I’m thinking that, of course, General Donovan is directly and most importantly related to it. And we do have (inaudible) of him and sculptures of him. And, of course, you recommended the spear point, an insignia with the golden spear and a black background as an image which CIA and Special Ops has taken out. It strikes me that how to portray this. Well, one, in addition to those images, one might be that behind the lines, and particularly in France (inaudible), behind the lines in France. Some men they generally carried Thompson submachine guns, carried submachine guns, a Tommy gun. Some, one or two as protecting and surveying as the engineer among them blew up a bridge or blew up the railroad ties, these are the kinds of things they did. Or they were also out helping the partisans to gather up the power shooting weapons and supplies that are dropped down to them. So -MS. LANNIN: MR. CHAMBERS: MS. LANNIN: Well, thank you for those --- I think are (inaudible) --- ideas, Professor Chambers. We’ve got quite a few committee members that we need to poll as well. MR. CHAMBERS: Okay. I’ll wrap it up, I’ll (inaudible). MS. LANNIN: So, Erik, can you quickly get through this? MR. JANSEN: Yeah. Just as a reminder here, we’re dealing with a three-inch pallet here, so we’re not (inaudible) large pallet to the artist that doesn’t fill out more space, making the space very palatable, but it does mean give us more detail (inaudible) quarter. I would say, and just again, we’re dealing with an obverse and a reverse here, and to me this story forwarded almost an obverse element and a natural reverse element. The natural obverse element is the people side of this. Many people, we’ve heard many characterizations of those people. obverse is a people story. And to me the The reverse is the edgy text story of this, the dark side, the covert nature, the technical innovation. The fact that electronics and much of our current world, electrical, electronic know how (inaudible) and the military had to have it first, that’s most powerful. And that, of course, has been the piece that’s driven the consumer electronic revolution we’re in. MS. LANNIN: Erik -- MR. JANSEN: So that’s the operative -- yes, MS. LANNIN: Erik, I hate to cut you off, but ma’am. we’ve got quite a few other people and we’ve got to be out of here in about eight minutes. MR. JANSEN: So -- I would suggest that they have underestimated the time. MS. LANNIN: Well, yeah. MR. JANSEN: (Inaudible). MS. LANNIN: But we still need to be gone, MR. JANSEN: I would ask one thing of the so -- liaison as they have a chance going forward here in the next few minutes. If you could help us understand how the OSS would be different symbolically from today’s view of the CIA that might help with some of the unique elements of this beyond just a covert CIA image. MR. PINCK: MR. JANSEN: Okay. Pat. Maybe Pat O’Donnell. With that I’ll pass my time. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Jeanne. Okay, thank you. I’m intrigued with the imagery that’s been given to us and the fact that this is a covert operation. And I’m sorry, but I can’t help but think about the British program, although back a couple decades ago, where it was very much depicted the civilians helping out and spying on, you know, the enemy. can use this. So it somehow maybe we I like Erik’s interpretation of having obverse, reverse. And maybe we can have, you know, parachutes and goods being dropped behind enemy lines. We have a bit more space in the quarter. And I believe the artists are going to have to do some serious researching on this. MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Jeanne just said. Thank you. Thanks Jeanne. Michael. I agree on the research that I (inaudible) of the OSS (inaudible), which is confusing to make. (inaudible). wasn’t. I also Maybe that was (inaudible), maybe it I know the spearhead is certainly (inaudible) and medals, tokens that we were competing with. Perhaps we’ll see 47 doing an air drop. I think it’s going to be through the artist and the Mint (inaudible) with the liaisons here because there really is a lack of information out there. At the same time the liaisons need to remember that we can’t (inaudible) the World War II on the back of even a three-inch medal. As Erik said, you’ve got to have (inaudible) space and you’ve got to keep it simple and still be expressive. So as you guys are going to be called on I’m sure with the Mint keep that in mind, we can’t (inaudible) on the back of medal. MS. LANNIN: Thank you very much. Dennis. MR. TUCKER: I would recommend that the artist as much as possible and as much as our liaison agrees, keep it specific to the OSS and to World War II and don’t try to tie it into the modern day CIA, State Department Intelligence and other factors. Given the clandestine nature of the OSS if we use a human figure I might focusing on hands rather than faces or heads. But there might be other ways to get that across as well. And as we’ve been discussing today, discussing things from Kenneth Randell and the Museum of World War II in Massachusetts, he might be a good resource for artists to speak with. Because he’s done a lot of research and compiled a lot of material on black ops and black propaganda and such. MS. LANNIN: MR. URAM: said. Thank you. Tom. Well, I concur with what’s been Thanks. MS. LANNIN: MR. VIOLA: Thanks Tom. Herman. I like the idea of World War II. I think I would have liked the idea of a spear (inaudible). But (inaudible) spears. But otherwise other than that that’s all I have. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thank you. Thank you so much, Herman. Heidi. MS. WASTWEET: Thank you. This is a very big topic and its story has a potential of being interesting. very dull. And it also has the potential of being (Inaudible) on the committee my purpose is to try to pull a visual out of these abstract ideas. And on this description the phrase that stood out to me was “shadow war”. And I would like to challenge the artist to gather some information from that and see if we can incorporate some shadows in an artistic way to create that. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. That’s a great idea, Heidi. Mr. ABDUL-JABBAR had to leave. Are there any other comments? MR. PINCK: I just wanted to ask -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: MS. LANNIN: Oh, I’m sorry, Kareem. make you need to go away. I didn’t What do you have to say? MR. ABDUL-JABBAR: MS. LANNIN: He’s still here, Mary. Sorry. Well, again, (inaudible). MR. PINCK: Madam Chairperson. Could we ask the Pat O’Donnell and Doug Waller for their thoughts? (Inaudible) MR. O’DONNELL: Yeah, Pat O’Donnell, historian and (inaudible) of the OSS (inaudible). veterans of the OSS. There’s 700 But I think you definitely want to stick with the World War II theme for sure. But the other theme that’s very predominant in all of the (inaudible) and the books that I’ve written is Donovan is OSS and OSS is Donovan. It is absolutely essential to have his image on the coin. And show that the number of (inaudible), you know, the people that are out there of General Donovan. Because his inspiration was the (inaudible) organization at every level. It is really one of the most extraordinary organizations ever created by the US Government. not a boring thing at all. It’s I mean everything from the creating of the Navy Seal to the Green Barret had their inspiration with OSS (inaudible) and operational units behind the lines. And these are all very interesting stories about people too. And I think that that’s another theme that was brought up earlier, it’s about extraordinary people that were inspired by Wild Bill Donovan. They created, you know, (inaudible) the methods that they created themselves. You know, in fact, they really didn’t have inspiration. They were out of the box thinkers and they were extremely extraordinary people and their stories are amazing. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Mr. O’Donnell. Charles. MR. PINCK: something Pat said. I just want to follow up on I wanted to share a quote with you from Stewart Alsop and Tom Braden who both served in the OSS. They said that OSS was a direct reflection of Donovan’s character. force behind it. He was the spark plug, the moving In a sense it can be said that Donovan was OSS. MS. LANNIN: MR. PINCK: MS. LANNIN: MR. PINCK: Okay, thank you. And I was ho -- I’m sorry. I’m sorry, Charles. No, I was hoping we could also ask Doug Waller for his thoughts too if that’s okay. MS. LANNIN: Doug, are you still here? MR. WALLER: Yeah, I am. If I could suggest a design, I assume you have two sides of this. Pat O’Donnell and I have had to wrestle actually with this one to try and figure out images for book covers with the exact same thing. What I would suggest on one side is perhaps, you know, the face of Donovan maybe looking to the side with the spear in a backdrop on something very similar. And on the other side, and I don’t know whether Pat agrees with me on this, the primary means of getting a spy to work in the OSS infiltration for a huge number of them was simply parachuting out of C-47. And I would do on the other side simply just keep it simple but dramatic is a C-47 with a lone parachute or a person in parachute, you know, dropped out. And not a whole bunch, because it’s always just a lone spy or a lone propagandist or a lone commando in many cases. And I would keep it something -- that would keep your World War II to it and, you know, I think that might be fairly dramatic. MS. LANNIN: That’s a -- MR. O’DONNELL: I think that’s a great idea. So I would ask just also (inaudible) I think that would be -- and maybe the other (inaudible) as well to sort of bring in the nature of being in the OSS the reverse side, along with the OSS spearhead I think is a great symbol that you could sort of overlay some of those smaller symbols perhaps. MS. LANNIN: And I -- MR. O’DONNELL: Put Donovan’s image on the front of the coin with other, you know, with something else. MS. LANNIN: one more member. Thank you so much. I still have Donald Scarinci, are you still looking at the beach? MR. SCARINCI: Very simple comment. rest my case about military things. I mean I And as far as congressional gold medals, maybe we could short circuit it just a bit. We have historically, or at least over the last several years, pretty much gone alone with whatever the group that is honored by the medal decides to put on its medal. And when it comes to congressional gold medals I really never like to spend a lot of time on them. It’s whatever the group that’s being honored feels that they want and one the group is communicating amongst itself. And the Mint staff has been wonderful in dealing, working as a liaison (inaudible) so that you get (inaudible) as you could of a medal. But whatever you put in front of me for my view, for my personal whatever you put in front of me as a design for congressional gold medal, as long as I know that you have a consensus on the design I will only need to see one design and that’s the design you want. And so we don’t really need to talk much about congressional gold medals in my opinion. (inaudible). That’s all I have to say. MS. LANNIN: Thank you Donald. MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: MR. PINCK: suggestion. And we (Inaudible). Okay. I’m just following up on Doug’s A lot of the OSS personnel were dropped behind enemy lines by special equipped B-24s. MS. LANNIN: MR. PINCK: Okay. So if we do select a plane I would show the B-24. MS. LANNIN: So it’s got to be the correct -- okay. MR. PINCK: Liberator, yeah. MS. LANNIN: Okay. have any further discussion? It is now 2:44. Okay. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: MS. LANNIN: Do we I appreciate -- Mary, Mary. Yeah. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Inaudible) sea turtle (inaudible). MS. LANNIN: I couldn’t hear what he said. MS. STAFFORD: A sea turtle is floating by his dock. MS. LANNIN: Oh, great. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Inaudible). I’m with Donald today. MS. LANNIN: All right, guys. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Glorious amateurs on there. MS. LANNIN: Right. MR. PLANCK: That, Ambassador Montgomery, is that Ambassador Montgomery? Let me intro -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Inaudible) advocating the bar fight would be a tremendous (inaudible). MR. PINCK: If I could just have -- I’m sorry. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Mary, (inaudible). MS. STAFFORD: No, our liaison is trying to make a point. MR. PINCK: I just want to -- I didn’t realize our Chairman is on the phone. to all of you. I want to introduce him He’s Ambassador Hugh Montgomery who parachuted into Normandy on D-Day with the 82nd Airborne. MS. LANNIN: MR. PINCK: Okay, thank you. He went behind enemy lines four times with OSS and served a total of 63 years with CIA after retiring in 2013. MS. LANNIN: Well, thank you for your attendance. MR. MONTGOMERY: Nobody here but us glorious amateurs. MS. STAFFORD: Sounds like an inscription to me. MS. LANNIN: Okay. The next meeting is March 15th, it is an all in meeting, it is Washington, DC here in headquarters. If there’s no further business I’d like to move to adjourn. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Is there a second? Second. MS. LANNIN: Jeanne seconds. All in favor of All opposed nay. The ayes have adjourning say aye. ALL: Aye. MS. LANNIN: it, the meeting is adjourned. (At 2:45, the meeting was adjourned.) CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, Nate Riveness, the officer before whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby certify that the proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my direction; that said proceedings are a true and accurate record to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. NATE RIVENESS Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER I, Wendy S. Sardina, do hereby certify that this transcript was prepared from audio to the best of my ability. I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to this action, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. DATE WENDY S. SARDINA