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DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY,
UNITED STATES MINT
CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING
August 10, 2015
1:00 p.m.

Department of the Treasury,
United States Mint
801 9th Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20220
(202) 354-7280

Reported by:

Nathanael Riveness
Capital Reporting Company

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A P P E A R A N C E S

In Person:
Mary Lannin, CCAC Chair
April Stafford
Megan Sullivan
Gwen Mattleman
Roger Vasquez
Lateefah Simms
John Schorn

Via Phone:
Gary Marks
Herman Viola
Donald Scarinci
Robert Hoge
Michael Moran
Jeanne Stevens-Sollman
Michael Bugeja
Melissa Giller

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Press Present via Phone:
Mike Unser, Coin News
Debbie Bradley, Numismatic News

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P R O C E E D I N G S
MS. LANNIN:

It's 1:02; we had better start.

First of all, we have a discussion of the letter in
the minutes from the previous meetings.

Does anybody

have anything to say about that?
(No Response.)
MS. LANNIN:

So letters and meetings are

accepted?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Yes, I move we accept

them.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Jeanne.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Yeah, I move we accept

the letters.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you.

Does anybody want

to second that?
MR. MARKS:
MS. LANNIN:
Okay.

I'll second that.
Okay, Gary.

This is Gary.

Thank you.

Well, we have in our packets, that we

should have all received, five reverse designs for the
Nancy Reagan First Spouse gold coin and metal program.
Designs one through four feature Mrs. Reagan
with children during his Just Say No campaign, and

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design number five was held over from the last batch
of reverses that we all saw, and it's been redone to
feature two hands; one representing Mrs. Reagan's
hand, and the other representing a child's hand.
We also have in our packets a letter from
Rhett Jeppson indicating that Mrs. Reagan's preferred
choice is design number one.

Is there any discussion

about that?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Yes, I have question.

This is Jeanne.
MS. LANNIN:

Sure, Jeanne.

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

When we met last we

discussed having Mrs. Reagan on both sides of the
coin.

Is this something that is still desirable, or

are we moving to look at her preference?
MS. LANNIN:

Meagan can address that,

Jeanne.
MS. SULLIVAN:

Sure.

The comment that was

made, I believe, at the meeting was that we've never
done this before, that typically we don't feature the
spouse on both sides.

That's not quite a correct

statement.

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In recent years, yes, it's absolutely true
that we've gone for a more symbolic representation,
but in the initial years of the program it was quite
frequent that the first spouse was seen on the
reverse, as well as her portrait on the obverse.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Thank you.

Anybody else have any other

comments about that?
MR. MORAN:

This is Mike Moran.

I don't

have any problem with it.
MR. MARKS:
you're asking for.

I’m not clear, Mary, on what

This is Gary.

MS. LANNIN:

Gary, I was just -- I just saw

-- we saw the redone artwork.

I just wanted to know

if anybody had any additional comments on it.

Mrs.

Reagan prefers number one.
MR. MARKS:

Okay.

I guess I'm confused.

Are we going to have our normal process of each member
kind of weighs in, or are you asking for all of those
comments now?

I'm not clear.

MS. LANNIN:
in our normal process.

Well, I think we should do it
So Gary, if you would like to

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begin that would be just great.
MR. MARKS:
best pick to begin.

Actually, I'm probably not your
I really would like to benefit

from what some members have some thoughts about this.
MR. BEGEJA:

Mary, as much -- this sis

Michael Begeja, and as much that I had recommended
this, I'll give a brief comment on reverse number
five.
You know, of the four designs that we have
here -- and I'm not -- you know, I'm not a terrific
fan of reverse number five, but I really have a
problem with Nancy Reagan on both sides of the coin.
It is a coin; it's not a metal where we can actually
have different guidelines, in terms of what
constitutes a coin.
Now, you know, what's interesting to me
about the four designs, and they are actually quite
nice, all -- you know, I like all four, in terms of
the artwork, as much if not more than number five, but
we don't have reverses here.

So in that sense, from a

numismatic viewpoint, it really doesn't concern me too
much what Nancy Reagan might want.

What concerns me

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more is that we make an honest attempt at numismatic
design.
So for that reason, when we go through the
voting, I wanted to sort of just clarify that.

Thank

you, Mary.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. SCARINCI:

Thank you, Michael.

Just for the record, just so

everybody knows I'm here, Donald Scarinci.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. HOGE:

Hey, Donald.

Robert Hoge.

Just for the record, this is

I'm here too.

MS. LANNIN:
voice.

Well, Robert, nice to hear your

Nice to hear your voice, Donald.
MR. HOGE:
MS. LANNIN:

I have a small comment.

MR. HOGE:

All right, Robert.
I also think that it's not such a

great idea to have a portrait of Nancy Reagan on both
sides of the coins, but we've already decided on
having the obverse, which was her preferred program,
and perhaps I have to think a little bit more about
what Michael has said regarding using reverse number
five.

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However, I think that that's a poor design,
and I prefer, I think, to see a dual portrait of Nancy
Reagan on both sides, than to utilize that design
number five.

I mean, giving such prominence to the

word drugs at all, I think is just kind of alien.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. SCARINCI:

Can I ask a question?

I'm

sorry -MS. LANNIN:

Sure, Donald.

MR. SCARINCI:

Is reverse five the one that

Nancy Reagan prefers?
MS. SULLIVAN:
like that one.

She actually did not really

They're in order of preference of what

she liked.
MS. SCARINCI:
MR. HOGE:

Oh, okay.

Thank you.

Yes, she prefers number one.

Is

that not true?
MS. LANNIN:
MR. HOGE:

That is correct.

MR. MORAN:

I would go with that one.
Mary, can I weigh in?

This is

Mike Moran.
MS. LANNIN:

Sure, Michael.

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MR. MORAN:

In the past we have struggled

with when a client picks a reverse, particularly when
we don't like it, and I don't think that's the case
here.

But generally our clients are sponsors of some

project or in an association.
We've not had a former first lady.

We've

not had somebody of that stature before, and to not
pick what they want, at this point in time, to me is
unacceptable.

So I will only be supporting her number

one choice.
I will say that, maybe it's just me, but I
think her left hand in the portrait is too low on the
little girl's shoulder.

I think it would imply that

arm is longer than it really is, and it needs to slide
up there.
MS. LANNIN:

Got a wider reach then, huh?

MR. MORAN:

I think so, at least, but maybe

it's just my eye that caught that and I'm being overly
picky on it.

That's really all I've got to say on it.

I think it's open and shut.
MR. HOGE:
with Michael.

This is Robert again, and I agree

I think that her hand -- her left hand

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should balance her right hand in this position.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

MR. SCARINCI:
here too.

I might as well say something

It's a good time, after Mike and Bob.

I

also think that selecting -- the fact that we have,
for one of the few times in history, a living person
who's being depicted on a United States coin, that's
numismatically very interesting, and significant, and
will be throughout history, and the fact that she has
expressed a preference, I think it's a no-brainer to
go with her preference, and I think there's a coolness
factor to doing that, to go with her preference.

So I

agree with Mike and Bob, it's open and shut, let's do
number one.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. VIOLA:

Thank you, Donald.
(Inaudible 8:31), I must say the

same thing -MS. LANNIN:

Who is this, please?

Herman?

Herman, we can't hear.
MR. VIOLA:

Okay.

I'm just saying it's a

nice drawing and I think it's a no-brainer, as well.
I think it's a historical first, and let's do it.

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MS. LANNIN:

All right.

Thank you, Herman.

Jeanne?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Thank you, April.

I

do agree with everyone's comments on number one, and I
think that's quite good, but I'm going to throw a
little sand in everybody's eye here.
I do think it's important for us, as members
of CCAC, to make a good numismatic statement, and I
like that number five very much.

I think it is saying

something very positive, very bold, and I'm sorry I am
not favoring number one; although, these drawings are
very lovely.
I think it's a great idea, and we do have
children of color here, which is what we asked for,
but I do think, we as a committee, need to look at
this beyond what we're doing and probably -- I'm going
to stand alone in that maybe, but we -- that's where I
stand.

I think number five should be the one.
MR. MARKS:

Mary, this is Gary.

MS. LANNIN:

All right, Gary.

I'm ready

to go.
I'm sure you

are.

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MR. MORAN:
This is Michael.

I'd like to add something else.

Okay?

Now, I want you to keep in

mind that, yes, Nancy Reagan likes number one and
we're very happy to give her that choice, but keep in
mind, we weren't given any reverses, in a numismatic
sense, in the first go-around.

That's why we have

number five.
So this is really not about what Nancy
Reagan wants, it's what the artists failed to deliver,
and that is a bona fide symbolic reverse in coin
numismatic design.

That's it.

MR. MARKS:
Gary.

Mary, can I comment?

This is

Can I go?
MS. LANNIN:
MR. MARKS:

coin here.

Certainly.
We've heard both sides of the

Excuse the pun.

Those who want to go with

Nancy Reagan's choice, and then what we've heard from
Michael and from Jeanne, that you know, we really
should be going for the design that is the most
appropriate.
I find I have a foot in both of these camps.
I'm kind of leaning more strongly with Jeanne and

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Michael on this one.

You know, we were appointed as a

committee by the Secretary of Treasure for a reason,
and that was to make sure that we ended up with coins
that over time were impactful, and were redeeming to
the subject matter.
So one person's idea of what a design should
be should be approached very carefully.

This is a

great example of historic or versus the symbolic.
When you look at the content of number one, you just
see three people there and two of them are youth who
are wearing T-shirts that say "Just Say No."
Now, let's transport ourselves 75 years into
the future now, and you're a person who is collecting
these coins, and you come across this coin; you're not
necessarily going to understand the statement that's
being made here.
But if you look at number five, the
symbolic, it has some power behind it because the
symbols are universal; thumbs up, thumbs down, we
understand what those are and we have some very simple
text here, lives and drugs.

I think it's a powerful

bold statement, and I think if Nancy Reagan was more

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attuned to images that might transport her legacy
forward in a more concrete way, she may agree with us.
It's too bad she can't be a part of this
discussion; here the other side of what the
possibilities may be for her coin, because I think 75
years, 100 years from now, number five, reverse number
five, is going to have a whole lot more power, as far
as illustrating her legacy n the Just Say No campaign.
So, you know, at the end of the day, I'm
probably going to have to go with number five, but I
have some sympathies towards the idea that you a
living recipient here who's expressed her preferences.
That's all I have.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Gary.

For the

record, I'd like to read into the fact that Heidi has
written an email indicating that she would vote for
number one, which is Mrs. Reagan's choice.
MR. HOGE:
MS. LANNIN:

Mary, this is Robert, maybe I --

MR. HOGE:

Yes, Robert.

Sure.

I was interested in what Gary had

to say about a design of 75 or 100 years into the
future, but I think that we might give this a second

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thought because at that point who's to say whether
this is not just a contest describing Life Drugs,
prolonging life to some extent, or something like
that, whether it's a yes or a no.
MS. LANNIN:

That's an interesting way to

look at it.
MR. HOGE:
confused.

(Simultaneous speaking) easily

So I don't think that gives more of a

substance to number five than one of the others.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. MARKS:

That's an interesting -Well, respectfully -- Robert,

respectfully, I understand what you're saying, but I
just don't -- I don't agree with that.

I think the

universal symbols of thumbs up/thumbs down,
drugs/life; I can't see that people's I.Q.'s are going
to fade that well 75 years from now to believe that
kind of an interpretation.
MR. HOGE:

Who's to say that there's not

going to be some sort of controversy about life
prolonging -MR. MARKS:
MR. HOGE:

I just respectfully disagree.
Okay.

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MS. GILLER:
MR. MORAN:

I'm sorry to interrupt -This is Michael again.

Mary, I

think what -- you know, beyond what this discussion is
on this design, I believe you, as the chair of the
committee, need to really communicate to the artists
the symbolic nature of the reverses so we don't
continually get two-headed coins, and really perhaps
work with the artists to explore this very important
aspect so that we have more than or a few designs to
pick from.

Thank you.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Michael.

Melissa,

you would like to add something here?
MS. GILLER:

I was just going to say -- I'm

sorry, I'm not sure who's speaking, but part of Mrs.
Reagan's problem with number five is what we just
said, is it to her, as well, it was very confusing to
tell what the thumbs up and thumbs down was going to.
MS. LANNIN:

Thank you for adding that,

Melissa.
Eric, we have not heard from you.
MR. JANSEN:

Hi, Mary.

I am sympathetic to

so many points that are being made here, and

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especially Bob's point that symbols do change the
meeting over time.

I'm of a mind to go with number

one here with a couple of things I want to say.
I think, kind of, ergonomically, Nancy
Reagan's collar is off, the hands are kind of not
realistically positioned, versus where her elbows that
are -- they just don't feel right.

The hands

themselves, the way -- her left hand is over the
girl's shirt just doesn't feel consistent with the way
the fabric of the shirt's being moved.

It just feels

like a hand has just kind of been drawn in there, and
not really done correctly.
Do we have a statement from the artist here,
that -- because we're talking about living personages
here, do we have a statement from the artist that
definitively the young boy and young girl do not
represent any living beings?

Just in the case that

that would be claimed by someone going forward?
MS. STAFFORD:

Eric, this is April.

Yes,

that is correct.
MR. JANSEN:

Thank you.

So I would support

drawing number one from kind of the best we can do

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(inaudible 16:59).

Thank you.

MS. LANNIN:

Thank you very much, Eric.

I'm

the only person, I guess, that has not had anything to
say.
While I am sympathetic with the idea of
having the first lady on both sides of the coin, I
agree with Don Scarinci in that I feel that this is an
opportunity to have a person who is being honored, is
very exceptional, and if her choice is for number one,
with possibly some modifications for the hands that
we've spoken about, I would also be for number one.
Would somebody like to make a motion that we
just -MR. HOGE:

This is Robert.

I'll make the

motion.
MS. LANNIN:
MR. HOGE:

Okay, Robert.
That we adopt obverse number one.

MS. LANNIN:
seconding?

one.

Anybody second?

Who is

I'm sorry.
MR. JANSEN:

This is Eric.

MS. LANNIN:

Eric?

Okay.

So it is number

All those in favor say aye.

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(Ayes)
MS. LANNIN:

Opposed?
(Nays)

MS. LANNIN:
MR. MARKS:

I'm sorry, who is -Can we do a roll call on this --

MS. LANNIN:
MR. MARKS:

Okay.
There was something mentioned

about a previous meeting that we wanted to keep
records of how people were voting.

I think on a

telephone this is really -- there's a real
disadvantage to just calling a voice vote.
MS. LANNIN:
Okay.

Gary?

Sure.

Sure.

No problem.

What are you voting for?

MR. MARKS:

No.

MS. LANNIN:
MR. VIOLA:

You're a no.
Yes.

MS. LANNIN:

You're a yes.

MR. SCARINCI:
MS. LANNIN:

Donald?

I'm a yes.
Robert?

MR. HOGE:

Yes.

MS. LANNIN:
MR. MORAN:

Herman?

Michael Moran?
Yes.

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MS. LANNIN:

Jeanne?

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

yes.

No.

MS. LANNIN:

Michael Bugeja.

MR. BUGEJA:

No.

MS. LANNIN:

Eric?

MR. JANSEN:

Yes.

MS. LANNIN:

Heidi is a yes, and Mary is a

So the motion passes.
MR. MARKS:
MS. LANNIN:
MR. MARKS:

Point of order, Mary.
Sure, what?
Can we have an absentee vote

process in place for somebody who is sending in their
comments by email but not -MS. LANNIN:

We don't have to honor Heidi's

at all; I just thought that I would bring it up
because she was travelling.

She said she was willing

to call in, but because Mrs. Reagan wanted number one
she just wanted to express that in an email.
MR. MARKS:

We never have accepted proxy

votes -MS. LANNIN:
wanted to mention.

Okay.

That's fine.

I just

The motion passes six to three.

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So thank you very much.
Do we have any other comments?
MR. HOGE:

Mary, when is the next meeting

set up, and is that by phone or in person?
MS. LANNIN:

It is in person, and it will be

possibly October 7th and 8th, or 8th and 9th, we're
trying to decide.
MR. HOGE:

(Simultaneous speaking).

Does

the Mint have any expected agenda items (inaudible
20:01).
MS. LANNIN:
MR. HOGE:
MR. MARKS:

We're working on that.
Okay.
Mary, is that near -- the last

time the date of the meeting was October 8th; I didn't
understand the 7th was involved.
MS. STAFFORD:

So this is April Stafford.

If it's okay I'll just pop in here.
We actually have quite a few agenda items,
it looks like; rather than share those now, we can do
that offline, because we're not 100 percent sure of
some of them.

If all of the program that we believe

may come through do come through, it looks like it's

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going to be quite a list, and in the past when we've
had this amount of work the Committee has preferred to
do a day and half.
So and I believe, Mary, when we spoke
earlier you were going to communicate by email and let
folks know of the options.
MS. LANNIN:

Yes.

MS. STAFFORD:

But for sure it's the 8th;

whether we compress it all into one day and do a very,
very, very long day, or if the Committee ops to do a
day and a half on either side, is -- I know Mary will
work that through the Committee.
MR. MARKS:

Would that be a stretch to a

meeting on Wednesday and half of Thursday, or Thursday
and half of Friday?
MS. STAFFORD:

I think that's up for

discussion once we look at the programs and the
durations that are required.
I do know, Gary, that this date has been set
in stone, and before any decisions are made I know
we'll reach out to you and make sure that you're
comfortable with it.

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MR. MARKS:
MS. LANNIN:
discussion?

Thank you.
Thank you all.

Any further

1:19, meeting is adjourned.

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