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Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 1 DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY, UNITED STATES MINT CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING August 10, 2015 1:00 p.m. Department of the Treasury, United States Mint 801 9th Street, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20220 (202) 354-7280 Reported by: Nathanael Riveness Capital Reporting Company (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 2 A P P E A R A N C E S In Person: Mary Lannin, CCAC Chair April Stafford Megan Sullivan Gwen Mattleman Roger Vasquez Lateefah Simms John Schorn Via Phone: Gary Marks Herman Viola Donald Scarinci Robert Hoge Michael Moran Jeanne Stevens-Sollman Michael Bugeja Melissa Giller (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 3 Press Present via Phone: Mike Unser, Coin News Debbie Bradley, Numismatic News (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 4 P R O C E E D I N G S MS. LANNIN: It's 1:02; we had better start. First of all, we have a discussion of the letter in the minutes from the previous meetings. Does anybody have anything to say about that? (No Response.) MS. LANNIN: So letters and meetings are accepted? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes, I move we accept them. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Jeanne. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yeah, I move we accept the letters. MS. LANNIN: Thank you. Does anybody want to second that? MR. MARKS: MS. LANNIN: Okay. I'll second that. Okay, Gary. This is Gary. Thank you. Well, we have in our packets, that we should have all received, five reverse designs for the Nancy Reagan First Spouse gold coin and metal program. Designs one through four feature Mrs. Reagan with children during his Just Say No campaign, and (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 5 design number five was held over from the last batch of reverses that we all saw, and it's been redone to feature two hands; one representing Mrs. Reagan's hand, and the other representing a child's hand. We also have in our packets a letter from Rhett Jeppson indicating that Mrs. Reagan's preferred choice is design number one. Is there any discussion about that? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes, I have question. This is Jeanne. MS. LANNIN: Sure, Jeanne. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: When we met last we discussed having Mrs. Reagan on both sides of the coin. Is this something that is still desirable, or are we moving to look at her preference? MS. LANNIN: Meagan can address that, Jeanne. MS. SULLIVAN: Sure. The comment that was made, I believe, at the meeting was that we've never done this before, that typically we don't feature the spouse on both sides. That's not quite a correct statement. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 6 In recent years, yes, it's absolutely true that we've gone for a more symbolic representation, but in the initial years of the program it was quite frequent that the first spouse was seen on the reverse, as well as her portrait on the obverse. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: MS. LANNIN: Okay. Thank you. Anybody else have any other comments about that? MR. MORAN: This is Mike Moran. I don't have any problem with it. MR. MARKS: you're asking for. I’m not clear, Mary, on what This is Gary. MS. LANNIN: Gary, I was just -- I just saw -- we saw the redone artwork. I just wanted to know if anybody had any additional comments on it. Mrs. Reagan prefers number one. MR. MARKS: Okay. I guess I'm confused. Are we going to have our normal process of each member kind of weighs in, or are you asking for all of those comments now? I'm not clear. MS. LANNIN: in our normal process. Well, I think we should do it So Gary, if you would like to (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 7 begin that would be just great. MR. MARKS: best pick to begin. Actually, I'm probably not your I really would like to benefit from what some members have some thoughts about this. MR. BEGEJA: Mary, as much -- this sis Michael Begeja, and as much that I had recommended this, I'll give a brief comment on reverse number five. You know, of the four designs that we have here -- and I'm not -- you know, I'm not a terrific fan of reverse number five, but I really have a problem with Nancy Reagan on both sides of the coin. It is a coin; it's not a metal where we can actually have different guidelines, in terms of what constitutes a coin. Now, you know, what's interesting to me about the four designs, and they are actually quite nice, all -- you know, I like all four, in terms of the artwork, as much if not more than number five, but we don't have reverses here. So in that sense, from a numismatic viewpoint, it really doesn't concern me too much what Nancy Reagan might want. What concerns me (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 8 more is that we make an honest attempt at numismatic design. So for that reason, when we go through the voting, I wanted to sort of just clarify that. Thank you, Mary. MS. LANNIN: Okay. MR. SCARINCI: Thank you, Michael. Just for the record, just so everybody knows I'm here, Donald Scarinci. MS. LANNIN: MR. HOGE: Hey, Donald. Robert Hoge. Just for the record, this is I'm here too. MS. LANNIN: voice. Well, Robert, nice to hear your Nice to hear your voice, Donald. MR. HOGE: MS. LANNIN: I have a small comment. MR. HOGE: All right, Robert. I also think that it's not such a great idea to have a portrait of Nancy Reagan on both sides of the coins, but we've already decided on having the obverse, which was her preferred program, and perhaps I have to think a little bit more about what Michael has said regarding using reverse number five. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 9 However, I think that that's a poor design, and I prefer, I think, to see a dual portrait of Nancy Reagan on both sides, than to utilize that design number five. I mean, giving such prominence to the word drugs at all, I think is just kind of alien. MS. LANNIN: Okay. MR. SCARINCI: Can I ask a question? I'm sorry -MS. LANNIN: Sure, Donald. MR. SCARINCI: Is reverse five the one that Nancy Reagan prefers? MS. SULLIVAN: like that one. She actually did not really They're in order of preference of what she liked. MS. SCARINCI: MR. HOGE: Oh, okay. Thank you. Yes, she prefers number one. Is that not true? MS. LANNIN: MR. HOGE: That is correct. MR. MORAN: I would go with that one. Mary, can I weigh in? This is Mike Moran. MS. LANNIN: Sure, Michael. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 10 MR. MORAN: In the past we have struggled with when a client picks a reverse, particularly when we don't like it, and I don't think that's the case here. But generally our clients are sponsors of some project or in an association. We've not had a former first lady. We've not had somebody of that stature before, and to not pick what they want, at this point in time, to me is unacceptable. So I will only be supporting her number one choice. I will say that, maybe it's just me, but I think her left hand in the portrait is too low on the little girl's shoulder. I think it would imply that arm is longer than it really is, and it needs to slide up there. MS. LANNIN: Got a wider reach then, huh? MR. MORAN: I think so, at least, but maybe it's just my eye that caught that and I'm being overly picky on it. That's really all I've got to say on it. I think it's open and shut. MR. HOGE: with Michael. This is Robert again, and I agree I think that her hand -- her left hand (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 11 should balance her right hand in this position. MS. LANNIN: Okay. MR. SCARINCI: here too. I might as well say something It's a good time, after Mike and Bob. I also think that selecting -- the fact that we have, for one of the few times in history, a living person who's being depicted on a United States coin, that's numismatically very interesting, and significant, and will be throughout history, and the fact that she has expressed a preference, I think it's a no-brainer to go with her preference, and I think there's a coolness factor to doing that, to go with her preference. So I agree with Mike and Bob, it's open and shut, let's do number one. MS. LANNIN: MR. VIOLA: Thank you, Donald. (Inaudible 8:31), I must say the same thing -MS. LANNIN: Who is this, please? Herman? Herman, we can't hear. MR. VIOLA: Okay. I'm just saying it's a nice drawing and I think it's a no-brainer, as well. I think it's a historical first, and let's do it. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 12 MS. LANNIN: All right. Thank you, Herman. Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you, April. I do agree with everyone's comments on number one, and I think that's quite good, but I'm going to throw a little sand in everybody's eye here. I do think it's important for us, as members of CCAC, to make a good numismatic statement, and I like that number five very much. I think it is saying something very positive, very bold, and I'm sorry I am not favoring number one; although, these drawings are very lovely. I think it's a great idea, and we do have children of color here, which is what we asked for, but I do think, we as a committee, need to look at this beyond what we're doing and probably -- I'm going to stand alone in that maybe, but we -- that's where I stand. I think number five should be the one. MR. MARKS: Mary, this is Gary. MS. LANNIN: All right, Gary. I'm ready to go. I'm sure you are. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 13 MR. MORAN: This is Michael. I'd like to add something else. Okay? Now, I want you to keep in mind that, yes, Nancy Reagan likes number one and we're very happy to give her that choice, but keep in mind, we weren't given any reverses, in a numismatic sense, in the first go-around. That's why we have number five. So this is really not about what Nancy Reagan wants, it's what the artists failed to deliver, and that is a bona fide symbolic reverse in coin numismatic design. That's it. MR. MARKS: Gary. Mary, can I comment? This is Can I go? MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: coin here. Certainly. We've heard both sides of the Excuse the pun. Those who want to go with Nancy Reagan's choice, and then what we've heard from Michael and from Jeanne, that you know, we really should be going for the design that is the most appropriate. I find I have a foot in both of these camps. I'm kind of leaning more strongly with Jeanne and (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 14 Michael on this one. You know, we were appointed as a committee by the Secretary of Treasure for a reason, and that was to make sure that we ended up with coins that over time were impactful, and were redeeming to the subject matter. So one person's idea of what a design should be should be approached very carefully. This is a great example of historic or versus the symbolic. When you look at the content of number one, you just see three people there and two of them are youth who are wearing T-shirts that say "Just Say No." Now, let's transport ourselves 75 years into the future now, and you're a person who is collecting these coins, and you come across this coin; you're not necessarily going to understand the statement that's being made here. But if you look at number five, the symbolic, it has some power behind it because the symbols are universal; thumbs up, thumbs down, we understand what those are and we have some very simple text here, lives and drugs. I think it's a powerful bold statement, and I think if Nancy Reagan was more (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 15 attuned to images that might transport her legacy forward in a more concrete way, she may agree with us. It's too bad she can't be a part of this discussion; here the other side of what the possibilities may be for her coin, because I think 75 years, 100 years from now, number five, reverse number five, is going to have a whole lot more power, as far as illustrating her legacy n the Just Say No campaign. So, you know, at the end of the day, I'm probably going to have to go with number five, but I have some sympathies towards the idea that you a living recipient here who's expressed her preferences. That's all I have. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Gary. For the record, I'd like to read into the fact that Heidi has written an email indicating that she would vote for number one, which is Mrs. Reagan's choice. MR. HOGE: MS. LANNIN: Mary, this is Robert, maybe I -- MR. HOGE: Yes, Robert. Sure. I was interested in what Gary had to say about a design of 75 or 100 years into the future, but I think that we might give this a second (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 16 thought because at that point who's to say whether this is not just a contest describing Life Drugs, prolonging life to some extent, or something like that, whether it's a yes or a no. MS. LANNIN: That's an interesting way to look at it. MR. HOGE: confused. (Simultaneous speaking) easily So I don't think that gives more of a substance to number five than one of the others. MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: That's an interesting -Well, respectfully -- Robert, respectfully, I understand what you're saying, but I just don't -- I don't agree with that. I think the universal symbols of thumbs up/thumbs down, drugs/life; I can't see that people's I.Q.'s are going to fade that well 75 years from now to believe that kind of an interpretation. MR. HOGE: Who's to say that there's not going to be some sort of controversy about life prolonging -MR. MARKS: MR. HOGE: I just respectfully disagree. Okay. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 17 MS. GILLER: MR. MORAN: I'm sorry to interrupt -This is Michael again. Mary, I think what -- you know, beyond what this discussion is on this design, I believe you, as the chair of the committee, need to really communicate to the artists the symbolic nature of the reverses so we don't continually get two-headed coins, and really perhaps work with the artists to explore this very important aspect so that we have more than or a few designs to pick from. Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Michael. Melissa, you would like to add something here? MS. GILLER: I was just going to say -- I'm sorry, I'm not sure who's speaking, but part of Mrs. Reagan's problem with number five is what we just said, is it to her, as well, it was very confusing to tell what the thumbs up and thumbs down was going to. MS. LANNIN: Thank you for adding that, Melissa. Eric, we have not heard from you. MR. JANSEN: Hi, Mary. I am sympathetic to so many points that are being made here, and (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 18 especially Bob's point that symbols do change the meeting over time. I'm of a mind to go with number one here with a couple of things I want to say. I think, kind of, ergonomically, Nancy Reagan's collar is off, the hands are kind of not realistically positioned, versus where her elbows that are -- they just don't feel right. The hands themselves, the way -- her left hand is over the girl's shirt just doesn't feel consistent with the way the fabric of the shirt's being moved. It just feels like a hand has just kind of been drawn in there, and not really done correctly. Do we have a statement from the artist here, that -- because we're talking about living personages here, do we have a statement from the artist that definitively the young boy and young girl do not represent any living beings? Just in the case that that would be claimed by someone going forward? MS. STAFFORD: Eric, this is April. Yes, that is correct. MR. JANSEN: Thank you. So I would support drawing number one from kind of the best we can do (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 19 (inaudible 16:59). Thank you. MS. LANNIN: Thank you very much, Eric. I'm the only person, I guess, that has not had anything to say. While I am sympathetic with the idea of having the first lady on both sides of the coin, I agree with Don Scarinci in that I feel that this is an opportunity to have a person who is being honored, is very exceptional, and if her choice is for number one, with possibly some modifications for the hands that we've spoken about, I would also be for number one. Would somebody like to make a motion that we just -MR. HOGE: This is Robert. I'll make the motion. MS. LANNIN: MR. HOGE: Okay, Robert. That we adopt obverse number one. MS. LANNIN: seconding? one. Anybody second? Who is I'm sorry. MR. JANSEN: This is Eric. MS. LANNIN: Eric? Okay. So it is number All those in favor say aye. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 20 (Ayes) MS. LANNIN: Opposed? (Nays) MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: I'm sorry, who is -Can we do a roll call on this -- MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Okay. There was something mentioned about a previous meeting that we wanted to keep records of how people were voting. I think on a telephone this is really -- there's a real disadvantage to just calling a voice vote. MS. LANNIN: Okay. Gary? Sure. Sure. No problem. What are you voting for? MR. MARKS: No. MS. LANNIN: MR. VIOLA: You're a no. Yes. MS. LANNIN: You're a yes. MR. SCARINCI: MS. LANNIN: Donald? I'm a yes. Robert? MR. HOGE: Yes. MS. LANNIN: MR. MORAN: Herman? Michael Moran? Yes. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 21 MS. LANNIN: Jeanne? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: yes. No. MS. LANNIN: Michael Bugeja. MR. BUGEJA: No. MS. LANNIN: Eric? MR. JANSEN: Yes. MS. LANNIN: Heidi is a yes, and Mary is a So the motion passes. MR. MARKS: MS. LANNIN: MR. MARKS: Point of order, Mary. Sure, what? Can we have an absentee vote process in place for somebody who is sending in their comments by email but not -MS. LANNIN: We don't have to honor Heidi's at all; I just thought that I would bring it up because she was travelling. She said she was willing to call in, but because Mrs. Reagan wanted number one she just wanted to express that in an email. MR. MARKS: We never have accepted proxy votes -MS. LANNIN: wanted to mention. Okay. That's fine. I just The motion passes six to three. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 22 So thank you very much. Do we have any other comments? MR. HOGE: Mary, when is the next meeting set up, and is that by phone or in person? MS. LANNIN: It is in person, and it will be possibly October 7th and 8th, or 8th and 9th, we're trying to decide. MR. HOGE: (Simultaneous speaking). Does the Mint have any expected agenda items (inaudible 20:01). MS. LANNIN: MR. HOGE: MR. MARKS: We're working on that. Okay. Mary, is that near -- the last time the date of the meeting was October 8th; I didn't understand the 7th was involved. MS. STAFFORD: So this is April Stafford. If it's okay I'll just pop in here. We actually have quite a few agenda items, it looks like; rather than share those now, we can do that offline, because we're not 100 percent sure of some of them. If all of the program that we believe may come through do come through, it looks like it's (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 23 going to be quite a list, and in the past when we've had this amount of work the Committee has preferred to do a day and half. So and I believe, Mary, when we spoke earlier you were going to communicate by email and let folks know of the options. MS. LANNIN: Yes. MS. STAFFORD: But for sure it's the 8th; whether we compress it all into one day and do a very, very, very long day, or if the Committee ops to do a day and a half on either side, is -- I know Mary will work that through the Committee. MR. MARKS: Would that be a stretch to a meeting on Wednesday and half of Thursday, or Thursday and half of Friday? MS. STAFFORD: I think that's up for discussion once we look at the programs and the durations that are required. I do know, Gary, that this date has been set in stone, and before any decisions are made I know we'll reach out to you and make sure that you're comfortable with it. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Capital Reporting Company Witness Last Name, First Name Date 24 MR. MARKS: MS. LANNIN: discussion? Thank you. Thank you all. Any further 1:19, meeting is adjourned. (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014