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United States Mint
Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee
April 26, 2012
The Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee met in the
8th Floor Board Room at 801 9th Street, N.W.,
Washington, D.C., at 10:00 a.m., Gary Marks,

CCAC Members Present:
Gary marks, Chairperson
Michael Bugeja
Robert Hoge
Erik Jansen
Michael Moran
Michael Olson
Michael A. Ross
Donald Scarinci
Jeanne Stevens-Sollman
Heidi Wastweet
United States Mint Staff Present:
Christy Bidstrup
Don Everhart
Andy Fishburn
Ron Harrigal
Daniel Shaver
Greg Weinman
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Welcome and Call to Order


Introduction and Swearing-in of New Members,
Robert Hoge and Jeanne Stevens-Sollman


Discussion of Letter & Minutes from Previous


Review and Discuss Candidate Designs for the 2013
Girl Scouts Commemorative Coin
Review and discuss candidate designs for the Code
Talkers Congressional Gold Medals
Discussion of 2013 First Spouse Backgrounder


Review and discuss candidate designs for the Code
Talkers Congressional Gold Medals-Continued
Presentation by CCAC Member Michael Bugeja on
design devices on U.S. coins


(10:04 a.m.)
Welcome and Call to Order
Chairperson Marks: I'm calling the April 26, 2012
meeting of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee
to order. Welcome, all. We have a full agenda this
morning and leading into this afternoon.
Introduction and Swearing-in of New Members,
Robert Hoge and Jeanne Stevens-Sollman
The first item on our agenda is the instruction and
swearing-in of a couple of outstanding new
members, Robert Hoge and Jeanne StevensSollman. Who, among the staff, who's going to be
doing the duties of the swearing-in? Dan, is that
going to be you?
Okay, before you do that, I just wanted to just give
a brief introduction to all, on behalf of Robert and
Jeanne, and we have -- these two individuals are
just stellar additions to our Committee, and I'm
very grateful that you've both indicated your
willingness to serve here on this Committee.
The work we do is important, on behalf of the
Treasury, the U.S. Mint, and the citizens of our
country, in reviewing and recommending the
designs that end up on our coins and our medals.
So, as for Robert, Robert is the curator of the North
American Coins and Currency for the American
Numismatic Society.
He is a columnist and
contributing editor for The Numismatist magazine,
and from 1981 to 2001 he served as curator of the
ANA, responsible for the ANA's Money Museum in
Colorado Springs.
Jeanne, of course, she's a leader in her field of
medallic sculpture.
Her works are exhibited in
museums throughout the country and in Europe and
in private collections.

She has served, in the past sense, as president of
the American Medallic Sculpture Association,
currently is a U.S. Vice Delegate to FIDEM, which is
the international medallic organization, and so I
think that the wealth of knowledge that they bring
to this Committee is sizable, and I know their
contributions are going to be very valuable and
helpful to all of us in our deliberations.
So, again, thank you, both of you, for your
willingness to step up and serve, and, Dan, if you
can go ahead and -Mr. Shaver: I'd be happy to.
Chairperson Marks: -- administer the oath.
Mr. Shaver: Stay right where your are. Jeannie, I'll
do you first.
Member Stevens-Sollman: All right.
Mr. Shaver: Okay, if you'd just raise your right
hand and repeat after me. I, state your full name.
Member Stevens-Sollman: I, Jeanne Sollman.
Mr. Shaver: Do solemnly swear or affirm.
Member Stevens-Sollman:

Do solemnly swear or

Mr. Shaver: That I will support and defend the
Constitution of the United States.
Member Stevens-Sollman: That I will support and
defend the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Shaver: Against all enemies.
Member Stevens-Sollman: Against all enemies.
Mr. Shaver: Foreign and domestic.
Member Stevens-Sollman: Foreign and domestic.
Mr. Shaver: That I will bear true faith.

Member Stevens-Sollman:

That I will bear true

Mr. Shaver: And allegiance to the same.
Member Stevens-Sollman:

And allegiance to the

Mr. Shaver: That I take this obligation freely.
Member Stevens-Sollman:
obligation freely.





Mr. Shaver: Without any mental reservation.
Member Stevens-Sollman:

Without any mental

Mr. Shaver: Or purpose of evasion.
Member Stevens-Sollman: Or purpose of evasion.
Mr. Shaver: And that I will well and faithfully.
Member Stevens-Sollman: And that I will well and
Mr. Shaver: Discharge the duties.
Member Stevens-Sollman: Discharge the duties.
Mr. Shaver: Of the office on which.
Member Stevens-Sollman: Of the office on which.
Mr. Shaver: I am about to enter.
Member Stevens-Sollman: I am about to enter.
Mr. Shaver: So help me, God.
Member Stevens-Sollman: So help me, God.
Mr. Shaver: Congratulations.
Member Hoge: Do I swear on the Bible?
Mr. Shaver:

Totally optional.

If you'd raise your

right hand, repeat after me. I, state your full name.
Member Hoge: I, Robert Hoge.
Mr. Shaver: Do solemnly swear or affirm.
Member Hoge: Do solemnly swear or affirm.
Mr. Shaver: That I will support and defend the
Constitution of the United States.
Member Hoge: That I will support and defend the
Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Shaver: Against all enemies.
Member Hoge: Against all enemies.
Mr. Shaver: Foreign and domestic.
Member Hoge: Foreign and domestic.
Mr. Shaver:
Member Hoge:

That I will bear true faith and
That I will bear true faith and

Mr. Shaver: To the same.
Member Hoge: To the same.
Mr. Shaver: That I take this obligation freely.
Member Hoge: That I take this obligation freely.
Mr. Shaver: Without any mental reservation.
Member Hoge: Without any mental reservation.
Mr. Shaver: Or purpose of evasion.
Member Hoge: Or purpose of evasion.
Mr. Shaver: And that I will well and faithfully.
Member Hoge: And that I will well and faithfully.
Mr. Shaver: Discharge the duties of the office.

Member Hoge: Discharge the duties of the office.
Mr. Shaver: Which I am about to enter.
Member Hoge: Which I am about to enter.
Mr. Shaver: So help me, God.
Member Hoge: So help me, God.
Mr. Shaver: Congratulations.
Member Hoge: Thank you.
Discussion of Letter & Minutes from Previous
Chairperson Marks:
Next item on our
agenda is the approval of the letter to the Secretary
of the Treasury and the minutes, both stemming
from our February 28, 2012 meeting.
You received those materials as part of our packet
materials for this meeting. There are -- if there is
any discussions, additions, or deletions, please bring
those forward now.
Hearing none, may I have a motion to approve
Member Olson: So moved.
Chairperson Marks:

It's been moved.

Is there a

Member Moran: Second.
Chairperson Marks: It's been moved and seconded
that we approve the minutes and the letter of the
February 28, 2012 Citizens Coinage Advisory
Committee meeting.
All those in favor, please
indicate so by saying, "Aye."
(Chorus of ayes.)
Chairperson Marks: Opposed? Motion carries.

Review and Discuss Candidate Designs for the 2013
Girl Scouts Commemorative Coin
Chairperson Marks: This takes us down to a very
exciting item on our agenda today, and that is our
review and discussion of candidate designs for the
Girl Scouts Centennial Commemorative Coin
Ron Harrigal and Don Everhart are both here today,
and, Ron, I believe you are the lead presenter. If
you would present now, I would appreciate it.
Thank you.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. Thank you, Gary. The 2012
Girl Scouts United States of America Centennial
Commemorative Coin, Public Law 111-86, the Act
requires the Secretary of the Treasury to mint and
issue coins in commemoration of the centennial
anniversary of the Girl Scouts of the USA.
We have representatives from the Girl Scouts here.
I'd like to introduce Pamela Cruz, Director, the Girl
Scouts National Historic Preservation Center, has
traveled here from New York to share some
background information on the Girl Scouts for us
today. Pamela?
Ms. Cruz: Hello, everyone. Thanks for having us
here today. I was a Girl Scout growing up, and I
had a lot of fun, and I learned a lot, but it wasn't
until I worked at national headquarters of Girl
Scouts of the USA that I really realized what an
impact that being a Girl Scout had on my life.
We get to meet girls every day from all over the
country and all over the world, as do girls who visit
the Juliette Gordon Low birthplace in Savannah,
Georgia, which my colleague will tell you about in a
short while, and we get to see first-hand the impact
of what being outdoors and learning about the land
and taking pride in yourself and learning to be true
leaders is really all about.
The Girl Scout program has only changed five times

it a hundred years, most recently, and a lot of the
information you've been given about discover,
connect, and take action, part of the Girl Scout
leadership experience, and the activities that girls
do every day connect to that.
We are about diversity. We are about legacy. If you
look back in history, everything old is new again in
terms of activities that girls used to do. It really
excites me when girls come, and they're wearing
their Girl Scout sash, and they talk about the
proficiency badges that they have earned and the
wonderful things that they are doing and the
leaders they are becoming and how this connects
back, and I can show them how it connects back to
what that has been like throughout history.
Our founder, Juliette Gordon Low, was a true
leader, and she has set an example for all of us.
She was a very smart businesswoman. She knew
enough to actually get a patent for our Trefoil back
in 1913, which was awarded in 1914.
She had great vision, and with that I'd like to
introduce you to Fran Powell Harold. She is the
Director of the Juliette Gordon Low birthplace in
Savannah, Georgia.
Ms. Harold: I have two great passions in my life,
and one is Girl Scouts USA, and the other is the
founder, Juliette Gordon Low, and I have the great
pleasure of being the Director of her birthplace in
Savannah, Georgia.
We have a brand new biography
about Juliette Low this year, and
who is the biographer, says that
probably the most famous person

that came out
Stacy Cordery,
Juliette Low is
that you never

She was a woman who had a failed marriage, who
was childless, and was looking for something to do
that was meaningful for her life. She was actually
studying to be a sculptor, and art had always been
an interesting part of her life.

She went to -- was in London on a visit and was
introduced by chance to Sir Robert Baden-Powell,
who was the founder of the Boy Scouts. When she
told him that she had a failed life that brought forth
nothing but leaves, he said to her, "I have
something that you might follow, and if you do, a
greater sphere of work might open up before you."
When Baden-Powell founded the Boy Scouts, 6,000
girls signed up using their initials, and since he
couldn't have girls traipsing about the countryside
after his boys, he had his sister and his mother help
him found an organization called the Girl Guides,
and that was what he introduced Juliette Low to.
When she found the Girl Guides and put that into
her heart and her life, she found her mission for
herself. She devoted the rest of her life to founding
the Girl Guides and then the Girl Scout organization.
She had to troops in Scotland and England, and
then she knew, after she became enthused and saw
what it as doing for the girls of England, she wanted
to bring it to America, and the place she brought it
to start it was Savannah, Georgia.
I love the notion that she started it with a telephone
call. She called a cousin. As soon as she got to
Savannah, she was filled with enthusiasm. She had
the Girl Guide Handbook under her -- under her
arm, and she called her and said, "I've got
something for the girls of Savannah and all America
and all the world, and we're going to start it
tonight," and that's exactly what they did.
They started it. Girls signed up in droves, and now
here, a hundred years later, a childless woman has
affected and positively influenced the lives of 59
million people, so she's had a lot of daughters, and
sons, too, because we have adult male members
who are supporters of our organization.
When I think about Daisy, and I know that she
would be so thrilled to see how her organization has
moved and grown.
We've always been about

When she started the organization, she started it as
the Girl Guides, but girls came to her, and girls said,
"We really want the name to be Girl Scouts," and so
she changed the name to that.
Also, we're an organization of doers. I think that
one of the things that really sets Girl Scouting apart
as a youth organization is that we give girls a
fabulous program that they can use as a roadmap
for their lives, but in appreciation for that, we also
ask that they give service back to their community.
So, that service component, our hands around the
world with our Girl Scout and Girl Guide friends
around the world, we are circled by friends. It's a
fabulous organization. It's a wonderful place to
work, and every day I see girls who are taking our
program and putting it into action coming to the
Juliette Low birthplace.
We are thrilled that we are going to have a
commemorative coin to honor 100 years of Girl
Scouting and then the next 100 years. So the coin
will launch us into the future, and that's where
we're going. Thank you.
Chairperson Marks: Thank you very much. Ron?
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. Thank you, Pamela and Fran,
for giving us this brief history and taking time to
come here to enlighten us. I'd also like to recognize
Harriet Hessam, Vice President of the Fund and
Council to Support -- and Council Support for the
Girl Scouts is joining us here today, as well.
Okay, before previewing the coins or the coin
designs, I would like to give a basic briefing of the
coin. It's a silver dollar size, one and a half inch in
diameter, 90 percent silver in both uncirculated and
proof finishes.
The inscriptions Liberty, In God We Trust, United
States of America, E Pluribus Unum, 2013, and the

denomination, one dollar, either written up or in a
numerical position with a dollar sign in front of it is
required by law. There are other inscriptions on the
coin as the artist saw fit.
The themes on the obverse, the designs were
inspired by both historical and contemporary
aspects of Girl Scouting. The designs are meant to
convey the mission statement, which is, Girl Scouts
-- Girls -- "Girl Scouting builds girls of courage,
confidence, and character, who make the world a
better place."
Implied in this statement is the concepts of taking
action through community service, for which the Girl
Scouts are known. Girl Scouting helps girls develop
leadership skills, connect with others in multicultural
environment, take personal action to make a
difference in the world, develop friendships, and
participate in new educational opportunities.
So let's go to the designs, the obverse designs.
Now, Gary, would you like me to go through the
designs first, or would you -- how do you want to do
Chairperson Marks: Let's go through the designs,
and if you could go through both obverse and
reverse -Mr. Harrigal: Okay.
Chairperson Marks: -- in just one pass-through,
and then at that point I think we'll see what
contributions Don Everhart may have, and then I'll
go to the Committee and ask for technical
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. Great. Okay, Design Number
1, Obverse Design Number 1, depicts the Girl Scout
Cadet and a Girl Scout Brownie making a Girl Scout
The image represents the older girl mentoring a
younger girl. The three words that help describe

the mission of the Girl Scouts, courage, confidence,
and character, are inscribed between the two Girl
The newer version of the Girl Scouts profile service
mark featured in this design serves as a reminder
that scouting continues to evolve, helping girls
become stronger and confident as young women.
Design Number 2. This design depicts Girl Scouts -a Girl Scout examining the night sky with a
telescope, symbolic in the way Girl Scouting
encourages a girl to examine the world around her,
finding new ways to make a difference.
In addition to being a symbolic image, the telescope
shows learning, the learning of sciences. The tent
and campfire signify the Girl Scouts' enjoyment and
appreciation of outdoor activities.
Obverse Design Number 3. This design evokes the
history of Girl Scouts movement from the beginning
to the present day. The design features Juliette
Gordon Low, the founder of the Girl Scouts, a Girl
Scout Cadet from the 1940s, and a Girl Scout Daisy.
These individuals represent the sequence of the
ever-evolving Girl Scouts organization.
Design Number 4. Four Girl Scouts represent the
diversity of the Girl Scouts program:
computer skills, and various types of environmental
The inscription, "Encourage" -- excuse me. The
inscription, "Courage, Confidence, and Character," is
in proportion to the Girl Scouts' mission statement.
Design Number 5.
This design represents girls
building courage, confidence, and character through
several diverse activities.
A Girl Scout is shown using an easily identifiable Girl
Scout salute. Surrounding her are other Girl Scouts
engaged in performing arts, computer skills, and
caring for the environment, replanting native trees

and grasses.
Design Number 6.
This design represents the
celebration of the 100-year anniversary of the Girl
Scouts. The Girl Scout on the left represents the
first era of Girl Scouting. The Girl Scout on the right
represents a modern-day organization. The two Girl
Scouts are joined by the 100th anniversary Trefoil
Design Number 7. This design represents how the
Girl Scouts work cooperatively to make a difference.
The design depicts the planting of a tree and
flowers, conveying how Girl Scouts take action to
create a better world. The planting of the tree
symbolizes the traditions of the Girl Scout legacy in
caring for the earth and represents activities that
took place in 1912 and continue today.
Design Number 8. This design depicts Girl Scouts in
action, participating in activities that develop
courage, confidence, and character. It shows Girl
Scouts -- it shows the girls involved in activities that
stimulate both the mind and the body.
The kayak movement forward
central element of the design
symbolizing the progress into
actually one of the preferences

is moving out of the
to the inner border,
the future. This is
for the Girl Scouts.

Design Number 9. This is also a preference. This
design depicts three girls depicted in the design
meant to represent the different ages and diversity
of the Girl Scouts.
Design Number 10. This design depicts the spirit of
an early Girl Scout, shown in relief, in lower relief,
mentoring a contemporary Girl Scout Junior as she
learns to use a microscope.
The vintage depiction of the Girl Scout portrays the
legacy of the Girl Scout leadership and embraces a
vision for the next 100 years. Discovery, connect,
and take action represent key elements of the Girl
Scout leadership experience.

Design Number 11. The girl is making a Girl Scout
salute, which conveys confidence and poise,
qualities which the Girl Scout program works to
instill in girls of all ages. So here we have the 11
candidates for the obverse design.
Member Wastweet:





Mr. Harrigal: Okay. Preferences are 8 and 9, in
that order. Eight is preferred over 9, but they are
both preferences by the organization.
Okay, moving on to the reverse designs. Reverse
Design Number 1, this design is meant to encourage
and inspire Girl Scouts to live the principles of
Juliette Gordon Low. Inscribed on the palette is her
quote, "Ours is a circle of friendship united by
The different flowers -- "ideals," I'm sorry. The
different flowers and the wreaths symbolize the
diversity of the individuals that form the Girl Scouts.
The wings symbolize the forward movement upward
and the Girl Scouts bridging from one level to the
I do want to back up just a second here on the
theme, the reverse design. We included elements
provided by the Girl Scouts. Those are the service
mark, the Trefoil, 100th -- the Trefoil, the 100th
anniversary Trefoil bursts, Girl Scout profiles, and
100th Trefoil.
These are considered iconic symbols which
represent the Girl Scouts. It is the preference of
the Girl Scouts to have one side -- one side to have
a visible Trefoil of some sort and with the visible
Okay, we're going to move on to Design Number 2.
Member Scarinci: I'm sorry, Ron. Could you repeat
that? Why is that important? Why is that -- why
are the Trefoils important to this?

Mr. Harrigal: They represent the organization. This
is the 100th anniversary of the organization.
Member Scarinci: What do the Trefoils mean?
Mr. Harrigal: I'd like to pass this one to Pamela.
Ms. Cruz: The Trefoil has actually been a Girl Scout
tradition going back to the start of the organization,
and it was first introduced -- and all Girl Scouts
actually wear a Trefoil, both girl members and adult
members, and have for 100 years.
In that 100 years, there has only been one major
change of the Trefoil to make it more modern, and
that was in 1978, and it was a slight variation
change of that in 2010 to make it a little bit more
So it is a symbol that was actually design by our
founder, Juliette Gordon Low, for which she received
a United States patent, and it is something that is
part of the proud legacy of the organization and is
recognizable, not only to Girl Scouts, but really to
anyone in the country and the world.
Member Scarinci: Are you wearing that?
Ms. Cruz: Yes, we're both wearing examples.
Ms. Harold: I have on the traditional.
Ms. Cruz: And I have on modern.
Member Scarinci: Is it possible to circulate it?
Ms. Harold: Oh, yes, sure.
Ms. Cruz: Absolutely. Actually, in your office I
have one from 1912. I'm about to donate it to the
Ms. Harold: And the other pin, which is above it, is
something that we -- when we wear our pins, we
also wear our World Association pin, because we are
part of a greater world association, so this top in is

World Association, and the Trefoil is the lower.
Ms. Hessam: This is a special 100th anniversary pin
just in the shape of a Trefoil. That was just created
this year.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. Thank you. That is much more
-- much better spoken than I could have said and
appreciate the help there.
Okay, Design Number 2. This design represents the
earliest Girl Scout pin, the current Girl Scouts profile
service mark, and the 100th anniversary Trefoil
bloom. The inscription "Girl Scouts" is placed on the
sash that would be incused on the design.
Design Number 3. This is one of the preferences of
the Girl Scouts. This design honors the centennial
of the Girl Scouts of the United States by featuring a
large centralized image of the famous Girl Scouts
profile service mark.
Inscribed within the outer rim is a classic
numismatic decorated border treatment that
features 100 small individual denticles to symbolize
the Girl Scouts' 100 years of excellence and
Design Number 4. On the left is the Girl Scouts
from the earlier -- early in the organization's
history, and the figure on the right represents a
contemporary Girl Scout. Together, they hold up
the Girl Scouts' 100th anniversary Trefoil bloom.
The design celebrates a century of Girl Scouts
helping girls make the world a better place. The
silhouettes imply that although the girls outwardly - outward appearance may have changed over the
course of 100 years, the underlying qualities
instilled within the Girl Scouting -- within Girl
Scouting have not.
Design Number 5.
This design pairs the 1914
Heritage Trefoil pin with the Girl Scouts service

transformation of Girl Scouting over 100 years.
Design Number 6.
This design features
contemporary Girl Scouts profile service mark.


Design Number 7.
This design is a version of
Design Number 5 with the change in the inscription
placement of the one dollar and how it's depicted
In the previous version, one dollar was
spelled out.
Design Number 8. This design features the Girl
Scouts profile service mark with the inscription
"Courage, Confidence, and Character" inscribed in
the half-circle around the bottom rim of the coin.
Design Number 9. This reverse commemorates the
100th anniversary of the Girl Scouts. The 100th
anniversary Trefoil bloom is framed by the Girl
Scouts' friendship circle, clasped overlapped hands,
which represent the unbroken chain of friendship
among Girl Scouts all over the world.
Finally, Design Number 10. This design features the
Heritage Trefoil from 1914 designed by Juliette
Gordon Low. So here we have ten candidates for
the reverse.
Chairperson Marks: At this point, I'll ask our lead
engraver, Don Everhart, if he has any comments, or
anything you'd like the Committee to know about
these designs.
Mr. Everhart:

Anything specific you were looking

Chairperson Marks: No, I just want to give you an
opportunity to -Mr. Everhart: They're all coinable. I think these are
all good designs that work well with the circle, and,
you know, I know that we can handle any one of
them that are chosen, or any two of them.
Chairperson Marks: Okay. Thank you. Ron, before
I move on to the Committee questions, what was

the Girl Scouts' preference for the reverse?
sorry. You said that.


Mr. Harrigal:
Yes, there are two here, Design
Number 3 and 8. Those are the two that they
expressed preference for.
Chairperson Marks: Three and 8?
Mr. Harrigal: Yes.
Chairperson Marks: Okay thank you. Okay, at this
point, our traditionally has been to open up the floor
to the Committee to ask any questions of a
technical nature related to the designs. This is not
to express your opinion about particular designs but
to clarify what we've been presented to facilitate our
discussion to come on the designs themselves.
So, Heidi, do you have a question?
Member Wastweet: Ron, on Reverse Number 6, can
we talk about the intended depths and textures?
Mr. Harrigal: Yes, I could let Don take that.
Member Wastweet: Don?
Mr. Harrigal: But we are -- we are looking at
different textures and different heights there.
Mr. Everhart: Yes, I think that the Trefoil, the
profiles in the middle would be slightly higher than
the left part that would also be raised. They'd both
be textured, and we have -- we're working with
laser textures and frostings that we can differentiate
and get a good contrast with the two.
Member Wastweet:
And then the text, "United
States of" would be incused into that space?
Mr. Everhart: That would be, yes, that would be
incused, and then E Pluribus, 100 years, one dollar,
America, would be raised and probably be, I'm
thinking, about 60,000 to 70,000 maximum relief.

Chairperson Marks: Erik?
Member Jansen: Is Number 5, Reverse 5, intended
to have kind of a gradient frosting to it? My copy
showed it almost disappearing into the field in the
forehead, and at the bottom of the hair was with
folds. The projected image still looks a bit of a
gradient to me.
Mr. Harrigal: I think that wasn't intentional from
that perspective. I think that was more or less a
lighting perspective.
Member Jansen:
Got it.
photocopy machine. Thank you.

Yes, it's a

Mr. Harrigal: If we were to something in a gradient
like that, it would be very difficult from a coinability
standpoint and controlled from coin to coin.
Member Jansen: That was -- that was my question.
Chairperson Marks: Donald?
Mr. Everhart: I'm not sure it would be appropriate
in this occasion, anyway.
Chairperson Marks: Donald?
Member Scarinci: On Number 6, which I really like,
what's the -- what's the -- I assume you're going
with a frost on the -- on the darkened portion, but
what about that -- the portion on the top? What is
that going to look like in proof and in uncirculated?
Mr. Harrigal: Are you -- I'm going to use the laser
pointer here. Are you actually talking about the
area here?
Member Scarinci: Yes.
Mr. Harrigal: The lighter colored shading?
Member Scarinci: Yes.
Mr. Harrigal: Well, there will be a height difference
there from the center, from the center artwork, and

it will have a different texture.
Member Scarinci: Ah. So it'll have depth. It'll give
-- it'll give the design depth.
Mr. Harrigal: There will be a height -- there will be
a height change, and there will also be texture
Member Scarinci: Oh, nice.
Chairperson Marks: Ron, would it be possible to
apply that same procedure that is shown on Reverse
6 to reverse 5?
Mr. Harrigal: We'd have to take a look at it. We
discussed internally 6. We haven't on 5 on that. I
mean, clearly, today we're leaning towards doing
more with our technology, and I just don't know.
We'd have to discuss it internally to see if it makes
sense to do something like that.
Mr. Everhart: Are you referring to a design change
where you put that diagonal in? Is that -Mr. Harrigal: Correct, yes, the same thing but just
slightly, you know, back along the hairline there on
5 as it's done on 6.
Member Wastweet: I don't think it would fit as well.
Member Scarinci: No, it would be too busy.
Member Wastweet: And it would -- and it would cut
the lettering in an awkward place.
Mr. Harrigal: I mean, clearly, if the Committee
makes a motion for a change like that, we would
entertain it and see if we could possibly -Chairperson Marks:

Other -- other technical?

Member Stevens-Sollman:
For clarification, on
Number 6, are we looking at "United States of"
incused and then America raised?

Mr. Harrigal: Yes.
Member Stevens-Sollman:
you're saying? Okay.

Is that -- is that what

Mr. Harrigal: Yes, because it would be on different
Member Stevens-Sollman: Okay.
Mr. Harrigal: The platform for "The United States
of" would be raised, so we would incuse the
Member Stevens-Sollman: Okay.
Mr. Harrigal: And then the letters on the proof
version would be polished "United States of," and
then "America" would be raised, because that would
be on the basin.
Member Stevens-Sollman:
Chairperson Marks:




Is there a technical question,

Member Jansen: On the proof version, can you give
us two different flavors of frosting?
Mr. Harrigal: Well, you know, in the 9/11 Medal we
were able to do that, and if you also look at the Star
Spangled Banner on the gold, we did texture and
frosting differences.
We're learning to crawl before walk, before we run,
and if it makes sense to get contrast in the design,
we'll do that. You know, the jury is still out on
whether it really hurts us from a dialect perspective,
but we're trying to introduce that into the market,
because we have the technology to do it.
Chairperson Marks: Others? Robert?
Member Hoge: Is there any discussion so far about
what might appear on the edges?

Mr. Harrigal: This would be the standard edge for a
silver dollar, which is the standard reeded profile.
We typically don't put anything on the edge unless
it's legislated, and in the case of like the dollar coin
it's legislated and also, I believe, the large format
America the Beautiful bullion five-ounce coins.
Member Hoge: But not on these.
Mr. Harrigal: Not on these, no.
Member Hoge:
Did you -- did I understand
correctly? You said part of the legislation called for
the numeral one with the dollar sign?
Mr. Harrigal:
numeral one.

It could.

You could spell it out or

Member Hoge: It's either way.
Mr. Harrigal: It's not specific with that respect. It's
just the design element, how the designer felt that
it would best fit into their art.
Chairperson Marks:
Other questions?
hearing none, I'll move us on in our process. At this
point, I'd like to proceed with our individual
comments. Before doing that, I have a couple of
items to address.
First of all, as we look at the obverse versus the
reverse designs, there have been presented to us
an assortment of designs where the inscriptions, the
mottos, or the dates, the denomination, and so
forth vary, and not -- we don't have the same
content of those items on all obverses, or the
reverse also has variations on it in regard to those
So, as we consider these designs today, it's going to
be important that the Committee keep a focus on
the fact that this needs to be a coin that ultimately
the obverse and reverse work together and that all
of the necessary inscriptions and textural items are
included on the face of the coin, either obverse or

So, again, some considerable thought of how we
might go through this process as a Committee in an
organized way where we would reach an end point
with a recommendation that makes sense in regards
to obverse and reverse, and in the interest of
making it simple, I want to build this process
around our normal modus operandi where we would
each individually comment both on obverse and
reverse, and I would ask individual members that if
you have particular ideas about obverse and reverse
designs that should be joined together or married, if
you will, please address those in your individual
For that reason, I'd like our comments to include
both obverse and reverse. There are times when
we do obverse first all as a group. Then we do
reverse. I don't think that makes sense in this -- in
this case.
So I'm going to ask us all to make our comments in
context of obverse and reverser and what works.
You don't necessarily have to present a reverse that
meets with obverse that you particularly like and
vice versa.
I want to go through our normal tally process where
each member will individually rank the designs, and,
at the end of that exercise, what I'd like to do is see
what the end product of the numerical process has
been and see if the top obverse and reverse work
At that point, if -- a few variations may happen. We
may find a happy marriage, that we just happen to
pick two designs that work together.
We may find that there are two excellent designs,
and there may be something missing or something
that's been duplicated.
Let's address that as
individual motions, or as a Committee we can
always decide to marry other designs together.

I don't want the tally to necessarily drive the end
result, because it's very important, as I indicated at
the start of this, my comments, that we need to get
obverse and reverse that work together.
So, with that, I want to move to the next item,
which is a process that we often employ when we
are given many designs for a particular program,
and in this case we've got 21 designs spread
between obverse and reverse.
It is often our process that we go through an initial
culling out. The purpose of this process is to get an
initial indication from the Committee. If there are
particular designs that among all ten of us here
today there is simply no interest, then I would like
to eliminate those from our process so we don't
spend a lot of time elongating our meeting
unnecessarily. And let's identify those designs that
have particular interest in going forward with our
actual discussion.
So, as I move through the obverse designs here, I
will hold up each submitted design, and I'd like any
Committee member who wishes to have that
particular design indicated to indicate that, and if I
hear none, then we will pass over that design.
So, on the Obverse Design Number 1, I will
personally indicate that I would like to see that one.
For Design Number 2, do we have interest in 2? We
do have interest in 2. Design 3, I will say that I
have interest in 3.
Design 4? Do we have interest in 4? Okay, we will
set 4 aside. Interest in Design Number 5? Hearing
none, I'm setting 5 aside.
Six? Yes, we have interest in 6. Is there interest in
7? Hearing none, I'm setting it aside. Design
Number 8, obverse?
Member Stevens-Sollman: A preference.
Chairperson Marks:

Is the preference of the Girl

I would suggest that we continue to
consider that one. Design Number 9 is a preference
of the Girl Scouts, and I see members on the
Committee, also.
Design Number 10, do we have interest in 10?
Seeing none, we will pass that one by. Design -the final obverse design, Number 11, is there
interest in 11?
Okay, the result of that exercise, if you did not keep
tally, is that we will be going forward considering 1,
2, 3, 6, 8, and 9.
Okay, now moving on in our exercise to the reverse
designs, is there interest in Design 1? Yes. Okay.
Is there interest in 2? Yes. Three?
Member Stevens-Sollman: Preference.
Chairperson Marks: Yes. Four? Yes. Five?
Mr. Harrigal: I'm going to say yes.
Chairperson Marks: Okay. Six, I will say yes, and
others. Seven? I'm setting 7 aside. Eight?
Member Wastweet: Preference.
Chairperson Marks: Pardon me?
Member Wastweet: It's a preference.
Chairperson Marks:
setting that aside. Ten, final design 10? Robert,
yes. Okay.
So, the result of the reverse culling, we have 1.
These are the designs that remain for consideration,
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 10.
Okay, at this point, we'll move on to our individual
comments. I'll do something that I don't normally
do. I'll exercise a little bit of privilege here, and I'm
going to initiate our discussion with my own

There -- and I won't comment on every design. I
will comment on the couple that I am particularly
interested in. You know, first of all, I guess I want
to make some other comments, preface comments.
My goal, and I think it's the goal of others on the
Committee here, always when we have a
commemorative program, I like to -- I like to leave
these meetings hopefully feeling that we have
accomplished two major items. One item is that we
pick beautiful art, because it's the art that really
speaks to what we're trying to do here.
It's the art that really complements, or I'll even use
the word, that glorifies the subject matter, and it is
that art that Americans will hold in their hand, and if
it's something beautiful, it's something that they will
prize more than if there's something mediocre in
their hand.
The next point that I want to make stems from the
beautiful art, and beautiful art assists the
organization -- the organization that's benefitting in
a financial way, which the Girl Scouts are very
worthy, that they would receive funds from this
What we find is that when we have beautiful art on
our commemorative coins, they sell better. I think
if you go back through the history of American
commemoratives, you'll see that the ones with the
higher mintages generally are those that have
images that are memorable, iconic, and beautiful.
You know, I can cite, you know, the most recent
one. It was not a coin, but a medal, the 9/11
medal, an absolute -- absolutely gorgeous piece of
art that you hold in your hand, both obverse and
reverse. We know that that sold very, very well.
The next one that I believe is going to be
the same is our Star Spangled Banner coin that I've
asked be in the meeting with us today. I'm going to
pass this around in conjunction with my comments.
I believe that sales of this, which are ongoing now,

are going to be very powerful.
So, for the sake of the Girl Scouts, I'd like to have
an outcome where we are recommending something
that's beautiful, and this Committee is especially
qualified to do that. We have people here who are
experts on numismatics, experts in history, experts
in actually executing art in a numismatic way,
sculpting, and so forth. It's just my passion that we
get there, and I say those things because there's -and I'll lead into my comments -- there are two
obverse designs that I would really like us to
consider strongly. The first one would be Number
1, Obverse Number 1, and I don't know if we can
put that up on the screen.
Mr. Harrigal: Which design?
Chairperson Marks: Pardon me? 1 Obverse. This
design, I think, is breathtaking to me, in that there
is a simplicity to it that conveys the values of the
Girl Scouts, not only the text there, but just the
visual idea of the mentoring that's going on from
older to younger. I think, and correct me if the
representatives of the Girl Scouts think I get this
wrong, but that is at the heart of Girl Scouting.
Ms. Cruz: Absolutely.
Chairperson Marks: And I think this design marries
the portrayal of the values. I think that's so
important to the Girl Scouts, the values that they
are portrayed, and it's done in a particularly artistic
way that I think is beautiful.
It's simple, and when I'm done with my comments,
I might suggest that the -- I'm sorry -- the mark in
the middle? Service Mark? Forgive me.
The service mark, because of the reverse I'm going
to advocate, that may want to be changed out to
the other one, the Trefoil, okay? So, keep that one
in mind.
The other obverse design that I'm taken with is

Number 3. If we could put that up on the screen,
this one, I think, is both classic in its presentation
with the profile of the founder, Juliette Gordon Low,
in a dramatic fashion with her uniform.
I think that there should be some due respect paid
to the founder of the Girl Scouts for a 100th
anniversary silver dollar made in honor of the Girl
Scouts. I believe there's a strong case to be made
that she be presented on the coin in some fashion.
This is the only one that allows us that opportunity.
I think also that the portrayal of the actual couple of
Girl Scouts on the coin is just a wonderful design. I
think that the raised fields, which will be the image
itself, opposed to the flat fields, which will be the
I think this would produce a stunning
So that takes me to -- I'm just going to move to the
reverses. There is one reverse -- well, first of all, I
will comment on Number 1.
I don't want to stomp on anybody's desire here, but
we've been down this road before where we think
that text is art. Text is not art. Text doesn't sell.
Text is not memorable.
Text is something that maybe you put on a marble
stone. That's an appropriate place for text, or we
put it on our programs that we produce for the
organization, our marketing materials, but please,
Committee, I hope we can pass by the text.
We want art that's beautiful, that will give respect
to the Girl Scouts and also in that fashion give
respect to their fundraising that people will buy this
coin. Maybe they're not particularly enamored with
Girl Scouts, and as a coin collector I've done this
with other organizations.
I'm taken with a particular design. I want the
design, because it's beautiful, and there are many
numismatists like myself, and that's how they
collect. They collect what is beautiful, and I'm

certainly one of those. So, I don't often speak
against a design, but I just did it.
Six Member Scarinci: So I hope whoever wanted it on
there feels bad.
Chairperson Marks: Yes. Well -Member Stevens-Sollman: I think whoever wanted
it on there will probably say why they wanted it on
Chairperson Marks: And please feel free. You can
disagree with me. Now, where did the -- where did
the dollar coin go?
Member Jansen: I have it right here.
Chairperson Marks: Okay. I had that -- I had the
Star Spangled Banner coin brought to the meeting.
I wanted you to pay particular attention to the
Reverse is a wonderful use of contrast between
raised, frosted fields and mirrored backgrounds, and
I wish -- I mean, it's something that I'd like to see
us do more of, and in that regard, Design Number
6, this is one that does not portray well on paper.
You do not understand what this looks like on
paper. If you look at the back of the Star Spangled
Banner dollar coin, you can begin to appreciate
what this will look like.
If you look at the very white -- for those who are
not numismatists, look at the white areas, and
imagine in your mind those are all glossy, mirrored
fields, and the other items that are frosted in, those
are raised objects in the dying process.
Those are raised objects that come up off of the
canvas of the coin, and they're frosted.
imagine the words "United States of," and that's in

In coin design, when you see letters that are black,
those are mirrored letters. Those are set into the
design, whereas the other words on the design,
those are raised out, and those are frosted, okay.
So what you have here, this design, is this
wonderful variation where we're using in a
particularly, I think, successful way, you're using
the frosted and mirrored fields to create a beautiful
coin, similar, and when we're all done looking at
that Star Spangled Banner coin, could we pass it to
the representatives of the Girl Scouts? I'd like them
-Ms. Cruz: We've already seen it.
Chairperson Marks: You've seen it? Okay.
Ms. Cruz: It's beautiful.
Ms. Harold: Very nice.
Chairperson Marks: So, I'm very strongly in favor
of Number 6, and I hope that others on the
Committee will support that design. So, with that,
I'd like to go to Michael Ross, if you are prepared,
and we'll just kind of move around the table, around
the U here.
For our new members, this will be your opportunity
to, as I just have, move through any or all of the
designs that we picked to look at.
Make your
comments, and feel free. These are always freeflowing. If you disagree with something that a
number has said or myself, please make that
known, too. We learn from each other here. So,
Member Ross: I'm going to reserve comments on
the artistic merits to the experts in our group, but
historically I just want to point out that the coin is
not just honoring the modern-day Girl Scouts. It's
honoring the Girl Scouts centennial, which is a
hundred years, so a coin that makes you think
about the past of the organization I think also would

be helpful.
Juliette Low, as our guests pointed out, as well, is a
very interesting, entertaining, but also very
progressive thinker coming out of the South at a
time when women were not encouraged to think
independently in many ways. They were not -You know, the Progressive Movement in the North
did not catch on in the South. Georgia, where she
is from, doesn't ratify the 19th Amendment until
That's giving women the right to vote, which the
South boycotts, and she comes from a very kind of
traditional debutante family and then is encouraging
girls to be self-sufficient, to develop skills in
medicine and aeronautics and electronics at a time
that they weren't doing that.
I think getting her image or voice somewhere into
the coin would ask people to ask questions about
her. There is a fine new biography of her, and so I
like Obverse 3 a lot.
Obverse 6 has some sense of the history by the
contrasting uniforms, and then on the reverse,
something that mentions the 100-year centennial, 3
or 6. Somewhere on the coin it has to mention
that this is a coin honoring the centennial.
Chairperson Marks:


Donald, are you

Member Scarinci: Yes.
Chairperson Marks: Go ahead, please.
Member Scarinci: Yes, absolutely. I think -- I
thought, when I was looking at this this week, I,
you know, I mean, there's a lot here to like, and it
starts with Reverse 6, as you anticipated.
Reverse 6 is exactly what we should be doing. I
mean, we're pushing the envelope to, you know, in
design. We're pushing the Mint technology.

We're showing that we are 21st Century. We're
showing the 100 years. We're showing a modern
organization that's been here for 100 years, but it
has adapted and become modern, and we're putting
ourselves, I think, artistically in the best possible
So, for me, I just can't be more delighted by when I
saw Number 6, and I kind of anticipated the answer
to my question earlier. I just needed to verify that
that was the case in how this was going to look, but
I think this is a winner.
I think it's a design winner. I think it's beautiful, and
so, for me, I start with this, and I would think it
would be a tragedy if we don't go with this, so I
start with this.
Now -Chairperson Marks: So you like it.
Member Scarinci: I like it. Now, I'm mildly -- I'm
mildly supportive of it. So we start with that. Now
we look at the -- now we look at the obverses, and
we try to figure out what pairs with this.
You know, again, I mean, we always talk about this,
and I guess I've been a broken record on this topic
for, you know, since I've been -- since I've been
here. Here I wish we could have the advantage of
seeing an artist's complete vision.
I mean, I wish we didn't have to substitute
ourselves for the artists, you know, and I wish the
day will come in the future that we're able to see
the obverse and the reverse together and have the
assignments go to the artists to complete a vision,
because that's how you -- that's how you do a work
of art. It's not -You know, I say this again and again and again. It's
not -- these are not two-dimensional objects.
They're multi-dimensional objects, you know, and
the only way -- they're little handheld sculptures in

the end, and so you want to see it front and back,
and you want the same person's vision of it.
Then we wouldn't have this, you know, difficulty
here with what's the motto, and then we end up
does it -- then we end up in design-by-committee.
"Well, I like this, but I don't like that. I like this."
It's no way to run an airline.
So, I mean, I keep saying this. I'm a broken
record. For those who have heard it, I apologize.
For those who haven't heard it, there's a more
elaborate version of this, but I'll spare everybody.
So, you know, to the matter at hand, you know, I
was actually, and, I guess, the pleasant surprise,
you know, because I actually like -- I like Number 8,
you know, and I was delighted that the organization
liked Number 8, likes Number 8, as well, because
it's not -You know, the thing I don't want to go with is
another Scout thing with the fingers, you know. I
mean, you know, how many coins are we going to
do with the Scout thing with the fingers?
Come on. We just did it for the, you know -- you
know, we just did one. If you look through, you
know, other things we've done, I mean, we did it.
We did it. We did it. All right. Let's stop.
This is -- this is intriguing to me, because, you
know, we're going to the rim. We're breaking the
boundaries, which is really, in a more, in a way of
more depth. That's really what Scouting does, and
we're depicting the Girl Scouts not in, you know,
some, you know, odd traditionalist kind of a way,
but look what we're doing here.
You know, we're ranging from art to mountain
climbing to activity. It shows motion. It shows
activity. It shows the breadth of what Girl Scouts
do without having these, you know, okay, we've got
the portrait of the founder in the background
looking left, and then we have the two little figures

with the fingers.
Then we have, you know -- then we have -- I mean,
at least we got rid of the tree, which I won't even
make a comment on that, since we eliminated it.
Then we've got the faces.
Well, that's great.
There's a -You know, I just think -- I just think, you know,
while I'll withhold my passion, because I want to
save all my passion for this reverse, and I'm going
to cry if we don't pick it, you know, but I think this - I think this obverse, you know, paired with the
reverse makes a very, you know, artistically
interesting coin and a very interesting design and
not same-old, same-old. So.
Chairperson Marks: Michael Bugeja.
Member Bugeja: I just want to preface a little bit
commemorative coin has ten elements.
It has
everything we have to have on a coin. That's
"Liberty," the date, "In God We Trust." Those are
usually on the obverse. On the reverse, it's "E
Pluribus Unum," then the denomination, and the
legend, typically.
Commemorative coins also have a symbol of the
organization or a service mark. They have a motto
of the organization and a depiction of the
organization. The symbol usually occurs on the
reverse or the service mark.
The motto of the organization usually is on the
reverse. The depiction is usually a figure. We hope
that there are heads in there so we can tell heads
from tails, and that's usually on the obverse, but
then there is the occasion, which is what Mike Ross
was talking about.
You can harmonize some of those ten elements and
combine them.
For instance, you can have a
service mark appear on a figure that's wearing a
Girl Scout uniform, as on the badge.

You don't necessarily have to have the date and
then the occasion, because you can have 19132013, or you can have a service mark that contains
the 100-year centennial.
Now, I did a quick tally of the devices in these
designs, and I stopped counting at 23 different
mottos, legends, service marks, text throughout the
whole thing without any idea of the Mint artist on
what should be on the obverse and what should be
on the reverse.
If you would like to see my list of 20, I mean, there
are four different borders. One of the Girl Scout
service marks is a rendition of the United States
state seal that just has G and S on it.
So you put all those things together, and you -- I
happen to agree with the Chair on my favorite. I'm
going to go through these very quickly, but it's
important that we remember those ten elements
when we finally choose.
My favorite was Design Number 1, but there are two
ways to depict Design Number 1. You either take
the service mark from Design Number 6, which has
100 in it, and then the date 2013 on the -- see that
service mark?
Now, if you can go back to the front, to the first
one, which lacks the date, so if you use that service
mark in the middle where I think Gary was taking
that out there for the reverse, and you put that
Number 6 service mark there, you've got the
centennial occasion that's already there, and then
all you need is 2013 as the date.
If you pick another service mark, and I would be
very much against that, you have to have 19132013, to distinguish it from circulating coinage.
Ms. Cruz: Just to clarify, the actual anniversary is
2012, so it's 1912 to 2012.
Member Bugeja: 1912. Well, that's fine.

Ms. Cruz:
So we're celebrating 100 years and
looking forward to the next 100.
Ms. Harold: We're launching the second hundred.
Member Bugeja: That's a very good clarification,
but it would argue even more for not specifying the
19, but let the service mark do it, and that's an
example of what commemorative, the best
commemorative coins do, and they also harmonize
devices. You have to harmonize all these elements
so that they don't conflict with each other, and
where those devices appear also is an issue.
Now, one of the reasons I was interested in having
Design Number 2 looked at is because there is some
intriguing orientation that can happen.
Right now, it's sort of a Hans Holbein type of
depiction, but if you turn that girl toward the stars,
rather than having the two-dimension over here,
and actually let her hair flow outside of the design
element -- in other words, you're going to turn her
so she's actually facing the stars around the "In God
We Trust" -- it can turn into a magnificent proof
coin where you'll see the night and the frosted
You'll have an orientation that many of our coins
actually lack and some of the best coins that you
see by the Royal Mint in Canada and maybe the
Perth Mint in that type of orientation. That would
have not been a flat design.
If we continue, then, to Number 3, which was also a
very nice design -- my favorite is going to be
Number 1, but Number 3, I find I like the idea of
having the past and the present depicted.
The middle of that coin right there is a little too
busy for me. I would actually decrease the size of
"Liberty" and switch the characters so the Brownie
is in the middle with the Scout mentor toward the
rim. It would add some white space where you
need it, and it also will give it kind of a pleasing

Number 6, actually, I like the old and the new. It's
a clean design. We'd have to be careful, because
we, you know -- about the models and where they
would go.
Number 8 has action. It also has sensory data.
Sensory data is not only sight. Sensory data is
anything. It's the five senses.
In addition to the five senses, sensory data also is
movement, and you have sound, and you have
texture and movement. You have depth. It is a -it's one of the types of coins that I have been
advocating that depicts action.
I actually think that when you take a look at
courage, confidence, and character, you see some
courage, because rappelling is no easy task. I was
looking for a depiction of courage in some of these,
and there it is.
Number 9 is just very, very elegant. I like the
optimal line of sight that leads us from one part of
the coin to the other. It's, unfortunately, not my
If you go to the reverses, and my reverses I happen
to have the same preferences as our Chair on that,
but I'd like to go through these. Number 1 was my
least favorite design, and there are some reasons
for that, and I'm glad that Gary pointed it out.
First of all, if you take a look at that, we're
repeating essentially the U.S. Seal. Then we're
putting a border in there, and then we have text.
Now, why doesn't text work? Because text has to
compete with mottos, and by Congress we have to
do "E Pluribus Unum." We have to do "Liberty," so
there's a lot of text on any coin to begin with.
Text does work on medals, because in medals
sometimes the person is known for the quotation, or

sometimes the occasion is best illustrated with text,
but on coins you're competing with other text
elements, and that's why this is not my favorite.
Number 2 has what I think could be construed as a
cacophony of symbols. You know, Number 3 is
okay. There's a little too much border going on
The reason I picked 4 is that it was one of the few
that showed the international reach of the Girl
Scouts, and I just wanted to put on the record that
that was a nice, a nice touch. It's not my favorite,
but at least someone thought of the international
Number 5 is acceptable. I do have problems with
state seals, with state seals or federal seals being
incorporated in a service mark.
Number 6 is absolutely stunning, and what that
would do in proof would give a 3-D effect. I almost
asked this as a technical question, but I didn't.
I kept it out, but there is a 3-D effect here that I
think in proof is going to be absolutely stunning.
You'll be able to look at that coin and see it in two
different ways.
So, I think with that, and, you know, 7 is another
rendition of that, I absolutely hate Number 10. I
think that this is not a military coin.
That state seal is a military -- I mean, that federal
seal is a military symbol. We should keep it about
courage, confidence, and character.
Chairperson Marks: Are you done?
Member Bugeja: Yes.
Chairperson Marks: Okay. Michael Olson.
Member Olson: All right. I've been looking forward
to this meeting in particular, because I have two
daughters, one of which participated in Girl Scouts,

and the other one is currently a Brownie, so I go to
a lot of Girl Scout meetings. In fact, a lot of -- work
along here.
I did read this book in preparation for the meeting
and a lot of good things in here.
I would
recommend. It's, I believe, 1913 was the original.
This is a reprint for the 100th anniversary but a lot
of neat things in here, and if you get stuck in a
survival situation, there might be a couple tips in
here that could help you out, too.
Anyway, this is kind of a special one for me,
because I do have daughters that will be very
interested in owning one of these coins and a troop,
a group back home that will be looking forward to
see these designs at a coming meeting once they
become public knowledge.
With all that being said, I think there's comments
that have been made that somewhat these are
disjointed pairings, and we're going to have to come
up with something that's not off-the-shelf from what
we're being presented.
I think we can do that. It's going to take some
thought and some really deep thought as far as
what we want to include and not want to include.
I'll be right up-front. The reverse on the Number 1,
I'm the one that wanted to keep that one alive only
for the purpose of recognizing the fact that there is
only one obverse and one reverse that makes any
mention of Juliette Gordon Low. I guess I would
have liked to have seen more of that.
The design is not particularly appealing. It will not
be getting any votes from me, but I wanted to
discuss it, because it's got a quote on her.
Being that this is the 100th anniversary and she's
such an important figure -- the Girl Scouts wouldn't
exist without her -- I guess I would have liked to
have seen a little more attention paid to her.

Member Scarinci: Nice space saver, Mike.
Member Olson: So, with that being said, I'll get into
what some of my criteria are in looking at these. I
recommendation should say "Girl Scouts" on it. It
should say, make reference to either 100 years or
centennial, and in keeping with the recommendation
of the Girl Scouts, I added that the Trefoil should be
on here, as well.
Some of these designs, when you pair them up, just
imagine if this was -- if this was the 200th
anniversary of the Girl Scouts today and we picked
up a coin that was generated at the 100th
anniversary, and all it had was a couple of these
symbols on it.
In 100 years, the symbol has changed several
Someone that had maybe not as much
knowledge of Girl Scouts picking up this coin 100
years from now might not know what it was. What
does that symbol mean?
So I feel very strongly that it should state "Girl
Scouts." It should make reference to 100 years,
and in deference to the group, I guess I'd like to see
the Trefoil on there, as well.
So, going through the obverses that we are -- we
still have in play, I did like Number 1 just for the
fact that it does show something that I see quite
often when I go to the meetings. We've got the
older girls interacting with the younger ones and
teaching them good practices for their life and skills
that they're going to need.
It's a nice design. I think that one could work.
Obviously, that one I don't see a date on there.
There would definitely need to be some
modifications to that.
Number 2, didn't have a whole lot of interest in
Number 2. Number 3 is the one I'm drawn to,
basically for the reasons that I commented on

before. It's the only one that gives the founder her
I think it is an appealing design. That one will
probably get the majority of my support as far as
the obverse goes.
Number 6, we haven't talked much about that, but I
kind of like that one. It's not formal. You've got
both of those girls kind of laughing. The girl on the
right has her head kind of cocked.
It's like an informal type picture.
They're not
necessarily standing there in a pose.
It's just
general type, having a good time, so that one, that
one is an appealing design.
Going on to Number 8, while I do appreciate that
there is a lot of action there, I think there's probably
maybe a little too much action for a Girl Scout coin.
I guess I would have liked to have seen that much
action in the Army coins that we got approved here
a couple of years ago.
It's a nice design. We've got figures using up all the
space, but for this particular coin I'm not really
going to give that much support.
I think the last one that we're looking at is Number
9. That one is a very nice design. It shows a
breadth of membership, different ages, and I think
that one could definitely work.
Moving on to the reverses, let's see.
Number 1. I've already discussed that.

We've got

Number 2, that's one that I don't really care for that
entire design, but there's an element there that I
did want to speak about, and that is the sash
running through the middle. That is -- that really
was a nice touch.
Now, what I don't really care for on this one is it
reminds me of several state quarters where we've
got different little pictures all over the coin. This

concept could have worked maybe with some
modification, a little less busy work, but you always
see your girls going to their meetings with their
little sash on, and that was a nice thought by
whoever did this design.
Let's see. Number 3, various different variations on
this. I do -- my preference would be Number 6 for
this. There are several variations of that modernlooking design.
That would probably not be a strong preference for
number 3, not a lot of interest in Number 4.
Number 5, the only reason that I asked that
question in the preliminary comments was the fact
that the Trefoil was so important.
I think in this case the Trefoil overpowers the other
design, but in doing our motions as we get down
the road, I suspect Number 6 is probably going to
be the preference for the group. When we start
recommending adding or subtracting, there may be
a place for a small Trefoil added to Number 6.
Number 8, not much to comment on there. Number
10, that one I have no particular interest in that one
at all.
We have talked about the fact that there may be
some elements duplicated, so we're going to have
to do some shuffling around. I guess I agree with
the comments from the group that really would like
to see the artists' preference, their complete work,
and I know some artists only do one side or
They may not do both sides, but it makes it tougher
for our committee to come up with something, and
we've been -- the thought is design-by-committee is
not a real preferential way to go, but what we have
to look at today I think that's going to have to take
So, at this point, that pretty much
summarizes my comments.
Chairperson Marks: Thank you, Mike. Heidi?

Member Wastweet: Part of my position on this
Committee, as Mike Ross refers to the historical, I
refer to the aesthetic and the coinability aspects, so
I'll speak to those, and I want to point out to keep
in mind the difference between medals and coins.
We've reviewed both of those on this Committee,
and I feel that the designs that we're looking at
here today, some really cross over into designs that
would be much more appropriate for a medal than
for a coin, so let's keep in mind that we're looking
for coin.
Some of the ones that we eliminated in the
beginning are some of those that I had a problem
with, so that saves me from talking about those. I
also want to talk about design versus illustration.
We're looking for coin designs and keeping that in
As has been spoken before, we have some problems
with the matching the obverses and reverses. I,
too, like Mike Olson, would like it to at least say
"Girl Scouts" somewhere.
I think that's pretty essential, but we have some
nice designs that don't do that, so as much as I
hate design-by-committee, I think that we may be
forced to do that. Let's keep it minimal if we can,
but let's not eliminate a good design for fear of that.
Let's see.
On the obverses, I do like Design
Number 1. Profiles always work well on a coin.
There's a pleasant amount of negative space.
Things are spaced properly. It's readable.
Of course, we have the issue about the service mark
if that's going to be repetitive with the reverse. It
conveys a story. The placement of the hands are in
a position that would be conducive to sculpting.
There's no issues there. I do like Design Number 1.
Design Number 2 I think is one of those that
crosses over into something that would be more
appropriate for a medal. It's got a lot going on.

Design Number 3, I really like this. Like it's been
said before, we have a historic figure, but then
we're getting really crowded, really crowded,
especially the small girl, the Daisy, with her hand
right at the belt of the older girl, and faces facing
forward are much more difficult to portray,
especially in the shallow depth of a coin.
If this were a Congressional Gold Medal, I'd say,
yes, go for it just like that, but in a coin this is going
to cause a lot of trouble for the sculptor. I don't
think it's going to read well visually to the naked
I love the fact that we have Juliette here, and, as
Mike Ross pointed out, because this is a centennial,
we'd like to see some historical with the new. But
here we have, instead of having old and new, we
have old, old, new, instead of just old and new, so
we could really get rid of the middle girl and have
the smaller girl, make it bigger.
I can refer to the group here. Am I correct that
more of your girls are younger girls than older?
Ms. Hessam: That is correct.
Member Wastweet: That is correct.
Ms. Hessam: However, Daisy is a smaller group Member Wastweet: Daisy is a separate group.
Ms. Hessam: -- for Brownie Girl Scouts.
Ms. Cruz: So, the Daisy Girl Scout was introduced
in 1984, and so Daisy Girl Scouts have not been
around that long. However, it is the youngest age
level of Girl Scout, so having the Daisy alone on
there doesn't necessarily represent the organization
Member Wastweet: Yes, I'm glad you explained
that. That is definitely -Ms. Hessam:

Or a Brownie Girl Scout on there

Ms. Cruz:
They have been there since 1926.
Brownies were introduced in 1926.
Ms. Hessam: Which is more iconic.
Member Wastweet: But, still, we're looking for the
Girl Scout. It would make sense to have a modern,
maybe younger Girl Scout but outside of the
Daisy/Brownie group.
Ms. Hessam: Yes, just to be clear, every girl in Girl
Scouting is a Girl Scout. It's a Daisy Girl Scout, a
Brownie Girl Scout. It's not like Boy Scouts with
their Cub Scouts and then Boy Scouts, so every girl
from five through 17 is registered as a Girl Scout.
Member Wastweet: All right. Thank you for the
clarification. So, this one is getting dangerously
close to design-by-committee. I really wish we
could keep this one. It's not working as-is, and I'm
looking forward to the discussion with the rest of
the group on what they have to say about that.
Onto Design Number 6, this one, while not exciting,
it does contain all of the necessary elements. We
have the old and the new. It says "Girl Scouts." It
says "Centennial" and has the 100.
That may be a little repetitive, but I don't mind that,
and it matches up well with the reverses that we're
considering. Again, I'm not -- you know, it doesn't
really excite me, but it meets all the criteria, so it's
Design Number 8, while there's been some talk in
favor of this and it is the preference of the Girl
Scouts, I feel this is one of those designs that is
much more well suited for a medal than a coin. I
think there's too much going on.
If we think about the layering, the depth of a coin is
extremely shallow. As a sculptor, I look at how
many layers do we have going on.

If you look at the girls in the boat, you have
forward-facing heads and one layer on top of
another. That's a lot to fit into that space for the
Then the girl in the
arm, the leg of the
That's a lot going on
the right side you've
so a lot of layers.

back, you have her hand, her
girl behind her, and the oar.
right there, and the paddle, on
got feet and rocks behind that,

If this were a medal, I'd say it's a little more
exciting. I'm not in favor of this as a coin, and,
Donald, I'm surprised that you went with this,
because you're not generally in favor of the
montage, so not in favor of that one personally.
Design Number 9, this is a little bit expected, but,
then again, it looks like a coin. It has the word "Girl
Scouting" on it. It says "100 years."
It fits our criteria. It's clean. It shows the diversity,
which our affinity group said was very important
them, so it meets that. It's very coinable. It's
It doesn't pose any problems there, and it would
match up well with the Reverse Number 6, which is
getting a lot of favor, because the service mark has
three female faces. This has three female faces, so
it's like the logo is becoming flesh, and that makes
a lot of sense on front and back, the symbol and the
So, on to the reverses. I'm going to skip Number 1.
I think enough has been said about that and
Number 2, as well. I think enough has been said
about that. We have a good idea.
So, on to Number 3, so we have some designs that
are really variations, 3, 5, 6, and 8. So Number 3
here, it's a little old-fashioned with the beading and
not terribly exciting. It is clean and simple, and it is
a preference of the group, but I am not really
leaning toward that one.

Number 4, I did not get the old and the new out of
this, as the narrative suggested. I couldn't see
that, and I still don't. The poses of them, especially
when reduced down to actual size, the gestures of
the bodies bring to mind basketball players.
Member Jansen: Volleyball.
Member Wastweet: Volleyball, yes, with the hands
Member Jansen: Serving.
Member Wastweet: I'm not in favor of that one for
those reasons. Number 5 is, again, trying to put
two things together that don't fit well, and we've got
-- we're doing so much better with Design Number
I'm really excited about Design Number 6, as has
been stated before, and like Chairman Marks said,
this doesn't represent well on paper, but those of us
who are used to in our heads translating the paper
version to the coin version know this is going to look
very exciting on a coin.
It looks like a coin. It's going to have a lot of
contrast. It's well balanced. It shows our technical
Member Jansen: It's modern.
Member Wastweet: It's very modern. It shows off
our technical abilities as we're developing new
processes in the production line. That puts us on
scale with the other mints around the country who
are also doing more technical things, and so it gives
us a chance to show off some of that without being
too flashy.
If you put this next to the 9/11 coin -- is that a
medal or a coin?
Chairperson Marks: Medal.
Member Wastweet:

The 9/11 Medal and the Star

Spangled Banner one that's rotated, if you put these
three together, you can start to see the
development of a new American style. We're not
copying Europe. We're not copying ourselves from
the past, and that's exciting. Something is coming
to the surface, a new style, and I say let's go with
it. Let's go that direction. So Design Number 8,
which was a preference of the group, is very similar,
but I encourage that we go with Number 6.
Number 10, I understand that this is a historical
Trefoil, and that makes sense, depending on what
we pick on the obverse, but strong preference for
Number 6.
So, if we want to talk now a little bit about matching
up the fronts and the backs, again, if we go back to
Obverse Number 3 with Juliette Low, it does not say
"Girl Scouts." It does not say "100 years."
That's going to be a problem trying to fit that in.
Do we put some of that on the reverse that we
already like so much as-is? So that's a problem. I
wish -- I wish we could do more with the obverse.
So that's where I stand. I'm looking forward to the
remaining comments.
Chairperson Marks:

Heidi, can I ask you a

Member Wastweet: Yes.
Chairperson Marks:
Reverse 6?

What would you pair with

Member Wastweet: Well, like I said, Number 9, the
flesh of the symbol would work well. Also -- wait,
did I say 9?
Chairperson Marks: Yes. 9 is correct.
Member Wastweet: Also, Number 6 would work
well, because it does say "Girl Scout Centennial,"
"100," so that would pair well with Number 6
reverse, as well. I think both of those would pair

Chairperson Marks: Okay. Thank you.
Member Wastweet: Obverse 8, which I already
don't like for the busy reasons, does not say "Girl
Scouts," does not say "100 years," so if we're trying
to match that with Reverse 6, we've got another
problem of jockeying around text.
Chairperson Marks: Okay.
Member Wastweet: Obverse Number 1, which had
some favor, again does not say "Girl Scouts," and it
doesn't say "100 years," but we have some room
there. That one could be easily changed.
Member Olson: Also needs a date.
Member Wastweet: Date, yes.
Member Olson: There is no date on it.







Member Scarinci:
Heidi, you intrigued me with
Number 9. How does that pair? You know, isn't the
raised part of the obverse going to conflict with the
raised part of the reverse when you strike it?
Member Wastweet:
Because the reverse raised
section is all one -- it's flat.
Chairperson Marks: It's flat.
Member Wastweet: You have two levels of flat, and
so that's going to actually help the fill on the
obverse, because when metal stops moving, it stops
moving everywhere.
So those multiple layers, because it's evenly
distributed across the surface of the coin, is actually
going to keep the metal flowing longer and is going
to help add depth to the obverse, and the obverse,
again, because we have three faces in a row, again

that evenly distributes the metal across that piece.
If we had one face in the middle with a nose coming
forward, then you have one high point, one peak,
and metal doesn't like that, because metal will want
to stop flowing when everything else is filled, but
the nose isn't. Here we have three, so it's going to
have that even flow, so that's going to help us quite
a bit on the metal flow.
Chairperson Marks: Don, excellent question, and,
Heidi, awesome answer. Ron, you -Mr. Harrigal: Yes, I would like to build on what
Heidi is saying.
We try to, from a coinability
standpoint, we try to avoid designs that have huge
amounts of volume on one side competing with the
other, because that's going to cause a coinability
issue that we have to lower the relief.
Also, if you look at a lot of our successful designs,
we do tend to have flat, plainer designs on one side
to allow us to bump the relief up on the other. So,
by doing that, the Reverse Number 6, it allows you
to push a lot of relief onto the obverse.
Chairperson Marks: And that's true of the 9/11
Medal, and it's true of the Star Spangled Banner
dollar coin.
Member Wastweet: Yes.
Mr. Harrigal: Correct.
Chairperson Marks: Yes.
Mr. Harrigal: The only issue becomes is, if in the
obverse, in the exact center of the coin we have a
huge void of some sort. If you look back at like the
Wright Brothers, where we had Orville and Wilbur
Wright, in between, if you look on the uncirc coins,
you see almost a halo effect there. So you do get,
if you have a huge void in the middle, you tend to
get some sort of haloing that transfers from the
other side.

Chairperson Marks:


Thank you.


Member Moran: Yes. I'm going to go along with
you, Gary, in that I like the first one on the obverse.
I particularly like the placement of the inscription,
"Courage, Confidence, and Character," between the
two girls. I think that's a good placement.
I think the Trefoil can easily be dropped out of there
without any difficulty, because I know where we're
going on the reverse. I can see that from the
Committee, and no sense in wasting time there.
You can easily drop the 2013 down there below
their hands without detracting from the design at
all. In fact, I think the Trefoil going away actually
helps the design.
I'm surprised we even see Number 2. It's just a
little bit quaint to me. Going through there, 3, I'm
just going to -- I really have troubles envisioning
how you can do the Juliette Low relief and the two
girls in a slightly higher relief and have it come out
Six, I like. It's okay, but I think 9 is the better one.
In fact, I like it almost as well as Number 1.
I think the three girls in greater relief there will
come out. I like the expressions on their faces, the
whole thing there, and it has some flexibility there
in terms of how it carries off the inscriptions there
below them and on the perimeter of the coin.
I'd like for you to also go back and look at Number
8 versus Number 9. In the way it appeals to the
eye, Number 9 is far superior to Number 8 in that
it's simple. Number 8 does too much.
The only thing I can say, Don's comments about the
fact that the design appears to come out of the coin
is correct, and I also like the way that the sculptor
broke up the inscriptions around the rim.

That, to me, has potential in the future, and the
whole concept ought not be dropped. I'd like to see
it again somewhere but not with so many characters
in the center of the coin. So, my vote is probably
going to split three and three on Number 1 and
Number 9.
On the reverse, I hate to drag down Number 1, but
we're realizing something that was known in the
Mint 100 years ago.
Charles Barber had an
opportunity to put a quote on the back of a
Lafayette dollar and refused, flat refused. We don't
need to try that again. It's a mistake.
I will say, though, the sculptor that did this, I give
him an A-plus on the wreath. That's a good wreath,
it really is, and we shouldn't take him totally to the
woodshed over that design.
Number 2, boring, but if we get into a crunch on
trying to get everything into the coin in terms of the
themes, Number 2 gets it all sucked in there.
Member Olson: Probably could get a couple more in
there, too.
Member Moran: So, you know, we may have to
come back to that just if we really like one of the
obverses, particularly Number 1, on there.
Number 6, you've convinced me. I'd like to see that
I really don't think you need, from my
perspective, "Girl Scouts" on this coin if you have
the Trefoil in such a dramatic, dominant fashion on
the rear. Go ahead.
Ms. Cruz: I would say the Girl Scouts agrees with
that. The Trefoil itself says Girl Scouts.
Member Moran: I think it does, too. So, we just
dodged that bullet. Forget Number 2. I'm done,
Chairperson Marks:


Thank you, Michael.

Member Stevens-Sollman: This is most impressive.
I agree with just about everything everybody has
said so far. I think I'm going to only speak to the
pieces that really are important to me, and on
obverse I have to agree with the image of Juliette is
just absolutely lovely, but I'm not liking the two
little girls there, although I like the fact that they're
happy. You know, these are -- happy little Daisy
there, she's sweet, and, you know, some of them
are kind of serious.
Number 8, where we have -- when I first saw it, I
liked Heidi's information or input on this, but when I
first saw it, I thought it was a very, very intriguing
concept of all the activities that a Girl Scout does.
I was a Girl Scout. My father was a Boy Scout
leader, and I come from Scouting. It is very, very
important, I think, to see the contemporary
activities of the girls.
In Number 8, although this is so tiny, you know,
when we look at it -- I'm looking at the small
version, because I want to speak to the fact that it's
going to get smaller.
Member Wastweet:
size, you know.

On this you have the actual

Member Stevens-Sollman: I do have the actual
size, yes. I have it right here, but when I'm looking
at this in a small version, I think we're looking at
more as the coin is going to be, and that is very
intriguing in that a collector is going to get a
magnifying glass out, and he's going to hold this
wonderful thing, and I think that is a very beautiful
However, it may be too busy when it gets down to
this size, so I go for this one. I think Number 9 is
quite wonderful in that it encapsulates several
cultures, and that I think is very important when we
have different ages and different cultures. We need
to do that. We need to say this.

So that's what I have for the obverse. The rest are
interesting, but I don't think it's necessary to speak
to those any further.
On the reverse, I do have to agree. The wreath is
fabulous on Number 1. I really think it's a great
thing, and if I were going to pair it with anything, it
should be probably, you know, paired with Number
I think it makes a nice complement. However, it's
too much. It's just like, no, I don't think we should
do that.
I think Number 6, in my opinion, is truly the one
that will make a statement for United States and
what we see in the world coinage. This is definitely
a mark. It's a going-forward vision of our coins.
I think that we as the United States needs to -- we
need very much to put ourselves forward in the
coins. I think that -- I know you all worked on a
There was sometimes too much
information and too much information that was sort
of erratic and sort of resembled Reverse Number 2.
So Number 6 for me pulls it together. It makes a
statement for our technology and where we
probably are going, so I think that's all I want to
say. It's a beautiful design.
Chairperson Marks: Thank you, Jeanne. Robert?
Member Hoge: I'll try to be kind of brief. I'll just
make a few points about the pieces that other
people have called to our attention and that I have.
The first obverse, I think, is an attractive piece. It
doesn't necessarily relate to a reverse as clearly as
it might, but I think I don't have any problem with
it. I agree with the other discussion points we've
had so far.
Now, Number 2 I thought presented some
interesting possibilities, and I like what Michael said

about this, because I agree with Mike, another Mike,
that it's kind of -Member Moran: When you say, "Mike," the whole
Committee answers.
Member Hoge: Right. It is kind of quaint, and
that's part of what I think is a little bit appealing
about this. I like the idea that it has a starry field in
terms of the great Gobrecht dollars, for instance.
But, the thing is, neither of these girls necessarily
looks like a Scout. I don't see the emblems here. I
don't see anything about Scouting.
That could
easily be changed, though. Put a sash on or a
scarf, something to dress it up.
Why does the one girl have to be cooking a
marshmallow? But it is intriguing. The idea of -Member Stevens-Sollman:

You haven't sat by a

Member Hoge: The idea of the telescope and the
out-of-doors and tenting and this kind of thing I
think really kind of gives a nice flavor. It's very
Plus, this is the only design that expresses an
exergue, which is one of the great traditions of
numismatics dating back to antiquity, so I think this
piece actually had a lot going for it, and -Ms. Hessman:

Would you repeat what you just

Member Hoge: Beg your pardon?
Ms. Hessam:
Would you mind repeating your
previous comment? I just -Member Hoge: About an exergue?
Ms. Hessam: Yes.
Member Hoge: Yes.

Ms. Hessam: Okay.
Member Hoge: Yes, this piece is the only one that
expresses an exergue.
Mr. Harrigal: Basically talking about this area here
with the raised -Member Hoge: A part separated by the rest of the
design by some kind of element. This is one of the
reasons why, for instance, the Monticello design
works well with the old Jefferson nickels and the
Lincoln Memorial on the cent. They have expressed
an exergue.
This is just kind of a numismatic tradition. As I say,
it's kind of quaint, goes back to the Romans, the
Greeks, and many other earlier coins.
Member Moran: I wasn't saying quaint for any
particular reason, Robert. I wasn't going with that
marshmallow at all.
Member Ross:
industry --

As a member of the marshmallow

Member Hoge: We don't really want brands and
that sort of thing, do we? So, anyway, I thought
this one brought up a lot of interesting points, and I
liked the suggestions that Michael #1 over here
came up with.
These others are attractive designs, too. I don't
really have problems with them except that Number
8, I believe, is just too busy. For a coin, it just
doesn't make sense.
I mean, it has action. It has elements that are
appealing and shows Girl Scouts in these different
guises, although only the one is really recognizable
as a Scout with her violin there.
Number 9, nice piece, it has to say "Girl Scouting,"
because otherwise it's just the faces of three girls,
and they're not necessarily Girl Scouts unless you
tell us that they are.

Member Stevens-Sollman: It has the Trefoil there,
and it has the mark, and it has a Brownie cap. I
mean, I think it's very Girl Scout.
Member Hoge: Okay. The beanie is a Brownie cap?
Member Stevens-Sollman: The beanie is a Brownie
Member Hoge: Okay. I see that. I like that one.
That's fine.
Now, I actually wanted to mention -- that's, I guess,
for the obverses. For the reverses, though, Number
3 -- Number 2, you know, I'll just pass. I agree
with what others have said.
Number 3, just a specific point. We mentioned that
the border is both dots and denticles. It really is a
border of dots, rather than denticles, and it's very
old-fashioned and traditional, and maybe that's in
its favor, but it's, again, sort of a flat-looking piece.
Number 4, I don't know why that one really came
under discussion. It looks just utterly lineal, and
coinage and medals are supposed to be bas-reliefs.
Number 6 has some exciting elements. One point I
would like to make, though, is that when we get
into thinking in terms of frosting and diversion
vestiges of frosting, we've moved away from
Coinage means money that's intended to be
handled, and if you intend to handle it, that frosting
is going to get worn.
So we're making things
nowadays that are really designed as small art
objects or objects for marketing purposes, not to be
used as money.
People aren't going to be buying and selling
anything using these, so this just, I mean, this is
just a little nod to something that shows where
we're changing.
I mean, coinage is, let's face it, it's sort of becoming

a little obsolete. We've addressed this in other
aspects of thinking about coinage as money. So, I
mean, I see the design elements, but -Number 10, I wanted to bring this up, because,
although I don't particularly like the design -- it
looks like a button -- it does say "Girl Scouts," and
also it expresses United States of America very
readily, very broadly.
I wanted to consider the use of the "E Pluribus
Unum" message here and suggest that if we use
one of the other designs we might want to think of
moving this around a bit.
Number 6, I can't really agree, although I like it,
that the logo alone expresses Girl Scouts. To me, it
doesn't. I'm trying to figure out what is this.
It's going to come across with a shaded, almost half
of the thing, and you've got these shapes. You see
the faces. I don't know that it's going to say Girl
Scouting, unless it has help like this Number 10,
which says Girl Scouts very plainly.
Member Stevens-Sollman: Or the obverse says it.
Member Hoge: Or the obverse says it, yes.
Member Stevens-Sollman: And I think that's the
point that we have to look at.
Member Hoge: Right. We may need to make some
modification on obverse if we go with Number 6.
That's it.
Member Moran: Okay. Erik?
Member Jansen: I'll put you out of misery and try
to keep my comments brief. To the new members,
be intrepid. You get to go first that way.
In selecting these, my first reaction when I saw the
obverse was to say, "Nice job with just a lot of
different designs and art," and so to the Mint, thank
you for soliciting and getting so many different

options. We've been a little critical of those things,
and so I want to put that kudo out there.
At this point, I'm focusing my own selection here on
making sure we have the right elements in our
designs. Now, I happen to have two Girl Scouts,
twin nine-year-olds, and my wife is a Girl Scout
regional leader, so if we pick the wrong ones here,
the door will be locked when I get home, so I want
to make sure I get that right.
But they told me that to them the courage,
confidence, and character is really important. Now,
what I heard from you guys was the Trefoil was
really important, so if I were to -- if I were to, say,
pick one, which one do you pick?
Ms. Harold: To me, the girls that I see exemplify
courage, confidence, and character.
Member Jansen: C3 for you.
Ms. Harold: And those are the ones I see the best,
because they are girls who have actually planned
activities, raised funds, and come and are actually
the doers, and that is what we want to instill in
every single girl who comes through our program to
help her be the leaders of today and tomorrow. So
that means -- that's what speaks to me more. The
Trefoil is a symbol, but that's what we're trying to
do with the girls through the program.
Ms. Cruz: Both the Trefoil and building girls with
courage, confidence, and character have existed
since the beginning, but if we're talking about the
girls and why Girl Scouting is important, it's the
courage, confidence, and character.
Ms. Hessam: And if I might say this, the Trefoil
there is a symbol of girls, but you have girls on that
Ms. Cruz: Right.
Ms. Hessam: So, to me, it's a little bit unnecessary

to have our Trefoil on that particular design.
Member Jansen: Okay. So, I'll let everybody take
away from that what they choose to, but I looked at
the devices here, and I just heard trade-off.
On the obverse, I am favoring three designs.
Number 1, we talked about the elimination of the
logo device in the center of that. I'll leave that for
the group to contemplate if that design comes out.
The design is missing a date.
My second favorite would be Number 6. This is kind
of the fall-back default kind of a thing in my mind. I
think someone else made a mention of it that way,
but it does have a nice featured 100.
It does have what clearly is an older and a newer
Scout. The hat does that. The head does that. The
outfit does that. I think the artist did a reasonable
job on that. It also says "Girl Scouts," so help on
centennial for those that like words instead of
My other favorite is Number 9. On Number 9,
however, we do kind of run into a bit of a cluster of
stuff on the bottom.
If we could get rid of the 100 there in the Trefoil, I
think visually the thing works a little better. If we
could creatively look at, and I don't see where I'd
do it, quite frankly, a negative relief on something, I
think that might work.
What is the cap on the older woman? Is that
designed to be her hair? It looks kind of funny to
me, and so if we select Number 9, I would suggest
we ask the artist to take a look at that before it's
cast into
So I don't know how to
manage that. I do like Number 9, probably, as my
When it comes to the reverse, the train has left on
Number 6. I'm not going to waste anybody's time
on that other than to close with a comment that I

think we're really missing an opportunity here.
This coin is going to be reeded, but I think we
should etch this thing with Thin Mints and Samoas
and Smiles and all the rest of the flavors. Thank
Chairperson Marks: All right. Thank you, Erik. As
is the case often when you decide to go first, you
get an education, and some of the things you said
at first you wish you could now take back.
You've all just been a wonderful wealth of
knowledge and help to me, and I'm just going to be
very quick about this. At this point, I was very
much swayed by Heidi's comment about Obverse 9
paired with Reverse 6.
If you look at those closely, all the necessary
information is imparted between those two, the
harmony of the three faces on both sides, more of
an idea of a traditional look on the obverse moving
to the modern-day on the reverse.
I think, Donald, that's what you talked about with
the Star Spangled Banner coin, that we had a more
traditional on the obverse, more modern on the
reverse, and then Heidi's killer comment to me that
this is really starting to establish an American style,
which is something that many of us on this
Committee have worked very hard and dreamed
This coin represents -- if 9 and 6 were actually
coined, we would make a very important step in
that direction.
So, if you have a paragraph
comment as follow-up, please, I'm going to
recognize you now, but, please, it's a paragraph.
Note on time, we're almost at noon right now. Our
schedule had us done with this conversation at
I'm okay going a little bit long on this, because
between Code Talkers and First Spouses we've got,

I think, two hours set aside, maybe more, two and a
half hours, yes, two and a half hours. I don't think
those two together are going to take that much
If we need 15, 20 minutes now, I'm willing to do
that and push lunch a little bit late. So, if you have
a paragraph follow-up, please.
Member Bugeja:
I'll be very brief, but Heidi
changed my mind, too, and I want to make a
comment back to what Donald said on the Star
Spangled Banner. It was not so much the -- it was
actually the flag that he talked about telling a story,
if you recall.
Member Scarinci: Yes.
Member Bugeja: What he said was we were taking
this famous flag, and then when you turned it over,
you got the modern flag. That was the story that
Donald said, and when I listened to what Heidi said,
it also resonated with me that this is the story.
You know, you can have Girl Scouts in there or not.
It tells a story without any text, and that's what I
really liked, so she's changed my mind, as well.
Chairperson Marks: Any other quick comments?
Member Scarinci: She's changed my mind, as well.
Chairperson Marks: Okay.
looks like we're ready to --

At this point, then, it

Member Wastweet: I want to add that -Chairperson Marks: Go ahead.
Member Wastweet: -- in the pairing conversation,
so Obverse 9 says "100 Years," and Reverse 6 says
"100 Years," so we have a repetition there. So, if
we chose to bring in the "Courage, Confidence,
Character," we could fit that in there, just as
something to think about.

Member Bugeja: It's interesting, because you've
got a triptych of slogans, a triptych of girls, and
then a reverse. Yes, I like it.
Chairperson Marks: Anyone else, quickly? Okay, at
this point we'll move to our scoring. A scoring sheet
was passed out to each of you.
For the benefit of the new members, our process
here, and for our visitors, the process here is each
member is given the ability to indicate support for
each design presented by assigning points ranging
from one to three. On any design, any member can
actually go from zero to three in any combination.
If you want to give three to one and zeros to all the
rest, that's fine.
If you want to give twos to
everything -- I think you get my point.
Just go ahead, and whatever your preferences are,
express those numerically here with three being
your highest level of support, zero, of course, being
none. When you're done with that, if you would
make sure your name is on it, pass it down toward
Erik, who has agreed to be our tally scorer for this
He will tally those scores, and after lunch, when we
come back we'll present those scores and hopefully
have a quick -- I think it's going to be quick,
because I think I know the outcome of this, have a
quick follow-up discussion to see if there are any
last-minute recommendations that we need to do to
bring harmony between the obverse and reverse.
Let me ask the Committee. The suggestion is that
we go ahead and tally these now before we go to
lunch, try to resolve this, and then the
representatives from the Girl Scouts can depart at
the conclusion.
Member Bugeja: They're nodding their heads.
Chairperson Marks: So, yes, with all the -- so, I
think what we'll do to allow the tally to take place,

should we take about a ten-minute break? Let's
take a ten-minute break, and this is not a tenminute break that the Chair then allows 15, okay.
This is a ten-minute break, okay. I'm going to -right now it is three minutes after. Hold me to this
if I don't do it. I'm going to call this meeting back
to order at 12:13, so we are recessed.
(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the
record at 12:03 p.m. and resumed at 12:13 p.m.)
Chairperson Marks: We are back in session, and we
have the result of our tally. On the obverse, I'll just
read these down, 1 through 11.
Design Number 1 -- oh, let me preface this. With
ten members present and three points possible from
each member, we have a total possible score of 30
on any one design, okay.
According to rule, the Committee design needs to
reach 50 percent or in excess of 50 percent of the
total possible, so in this case 16 would be the score
you would have to reach to earn a recommendation
from the Committee.
So, with that, Design Number 1 received 15.
Design Number 2 received six. Number 3 received
ten, Designs 4 and 5, zero.
Design 6 received 15, Design 7, zero, Design 8,
four, and then the recommendation of the
Committee by rule would be Design Number 9,
which received 22 of the 30 possible, and then
Designs 10 and 11 were zero.
So that's the
obverse. Those were the obverse scores.
On the reverse, this is simple.
two, two points.

Design 1 received

Member Olson: Okay, and I want to go on the
record that I did not. Neither of those points are
Member Jansen:

Oh, Michael, I was going to tell

everybody that at lunch.
Chairperson Marks: Okay, and Design Number 2
received one point. Designs, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, and
10 all received zero.
The only other one that
received points is the one that would by rule be
recommended, and that is Design 6.
Reverse 6 received 28 of the 30 possible points, so
a overwhelming tally for Reverse Design Number 6.
That gives us the pairing of Obverse 9, Reverse 6.
I'm going to ask the members if you have those
designs handy if you would pull those out. I want
us to do a quick observation of those designs lined
up together, and let's see if there's anything, any
recommendations we believe are necessary to make
that pairing successful.
Oh, by the way, is there some -- I'm going to ask
for a little bit -- the Chair is going to ask for some
help here. I have always struggled when we do
motions to define the motion as I write it down and
conduct the meeting.
Is there someone here willing to volunteer to take
notes on the motion, as far as who made the
motion, who seconded, and the essence of the
Member Jansen: I'll get it.
Chairperson Marks: You'll do it, Erik? Thank you.
That helps me a lot. Okay, so, we're looking at
Obverse 9 and Reverse 6.
What do we see,
Committee? What do we -- right away, I see 100
years referred to on both.
Member Hoge: Plus the word "Centennial."
Chairperson Marks: Centennial?
Member Hoge: Oh, no not on this.
Chairperson Marks:
on here.

Yes, I don't believe those are

Member Bugeja: I would take out "100 years" from
the reverse, and I want to make a comment why.
In American coinage, you very, very seldom see "E
Pluribus Unum" used correctly. Even on the Ellis
Island it's not used correctly.
Over here, we have your "Out of many, one," and
that actually refers to the Girl Scouts, and it tells
the story from the obverse to the reverse. So I
have no problem with "E Pluribus Unum" being
there without competing with 100 years, since "100
Years of Scouting" is on the obverse.
Member Stevens-Sollman: But what if we take "100
Years of Girl Scouting" off from that front and put in
what we were looking at "Courage, Confidence, and
Character? Then "100 Years" -Member Bugeja: That's fine.
Member Stevens-Sollman:

"100 years" is on the

Member Bugeja: That's fine.
Member Stevens-Sollman: And then we have the -Member Bugeja: Perfect.
Chairperson Marks: Plus the word "Girl Scouting."
Member Stevens-Sollman: Yes, but do we have -that's so redundant. We already say Girl Scouts
with the Trefoil.
Member Bugeja: Well, like I said, if this coin was
made 100 years ago with the Girl Scout design that
was in effect at that time, how many people today
picking that up would know that was Girl Scouts
without reading it?
Member Stevens-Sollman: Probably a lot of people.
Member Bugeja:
I think that's a pretty big
assumption to make.

Member Stevens-Sollman: No, I don't think so. I
don't think -- I think that the Trefoil is, I think, a
contemporary, but, you know, 100 years ago we
had the -Chairperson Marks: Jeanne, let's resolve this by the
Member Stevens Sollman: Okay.
Chairperson Marks:
motion --

If you'd be willing to make a

Member Stevens-Sollman: Oh, yes.
Chairperson Marks: -- to replace "100 Years of Girl
Scouting" on the obverse with the three value
Member Stevens-Sollman:
and character.

Courage, confidence,

Chairperson Marks: Yes, is that your motion?
Member Stevens-Sollman: That's my motion. I
move that we replace "100 Years of Girl Scouting"
on the obverse Design 9 and replace it with -Chairperson Marks: For the record, the motion
would be to recommend.
Member Stevens-Sollman: Recommend?
Chairperson Marks: And Michael Bugeja -Member Bugeja: I second.
Chairperson Marks: Are you seconding?
Member Bugeja: Yes.



Member Wastweet: Discuss?
Chairperson Marks: Pardon me?




Member Wastweet: Then we're going to discuss?
Chairperson Marks: We're going to have discussion
right here, but ultimately I don't want to get too
wrapped around the spokes on each of these
possible motions. If you have brief statements that
inform, let's do that, but I do want to move to the
vote quickly so we can resolve this. The vote will be
what actually governs.
So, Heidi?
Member Wastweet:
I just wanted to add that
during the break I had a discussion with Don
Everhart, and he was open to us just conveying to
the artist what wording we would like to see and let
them figure out exactly where it fits, so we don't
have to stress ourselves with figuring out where it
goes but just what we want it to say.
Chairperson Marks: Okay.
Member Jansen: So we don't have to worry about
white spacing and fonts and blah, blah, blah.
Member Wastweet: They would do all of that, but
the recommendation is that -Chairperson Marks: We have a motion on the table
that at this point I'd like to carry through with.
Member Olson:
Could I maybe add a little
modification to that motion to see if we can get
some consensus?
Chairperson Marks: Make a comment. It's not
adding. You can't add to the motion right now.
Member Olson: I kind of -- I like the idea of putting
that on there, but I still want to get back to the Girl
Scouts and the 100 years, so what about this?
What if we do the courage, what is it, courage,
confidence, character, the Trefoil on the obverse
that has nothing in it, that be modified to the 100year commemorative Trefoil, and on the reverse,

where we've got 100 years, we put either Girl
Scouts or Girl Scouting? That covers all the bases.
Member Wastweet: That could work.
Member Stevens-Sollman: I understand, but I think
we have to call for the question on it first.
Chairperson Marks: Yes. You know, I don't want
this to get complicated. Let's, Michael, if you want
to make a motion subsequent -Member Olson: I make a motion to -Chairperson Marks: No, no, no, no. We're going to
act. Let's act on this one. Am I parliamentary -Member Ross:
He could make a friendly
amendment that would have to be accepted by the
maker of the motion.
Chairperson Marks: Okay.
Member Ross: If he says no, then it's dead.
Chairperson Marks: What do you want to do? You
control here.
Member Wastweet: You can change your motion.
Member Stevens-Sollman: Okay.
Chairperson Marks: You want to go with what you
said, or -Member Stevens-Sollman: I want to go with what I
said, and then I would like to have Michael make an
addition or make an amendment to what I said,
because I think that's the correct procedure. I think
we have to call for the question of that.
Chairperson Marks:
Any other quick
comments? I'm sorry to ramrod this, but that's
exactly what I'm doing. So, I want to inform, but I
want to move this along.
So there is no other comments. All those in favor,

please raise your hand so that -- and keep them up
so Erik can make a note. You don't have to have
who they are, but count them.
Member Jansen: Two, four, six. I got eight hands.
Chairperson Marks: Okay, and all those -Member Jansen:

I have nine hands, I'm sorry,

Chairperson Marks: Pardon me? Opposed? Who is
Member Olson:
And we're simply opposing the
addition with no other modification, correct?
Chairperson Marks: Jeanne's motion was to replace
"100 Years of Girl Scouting" with the value
statement, the three words.
Member Stevens-Sollman:
and character.

Courage, confidence,

Member Olson: Yes, so I would oppose that with no
other modification.
Chairperson Marks: Okay, so -Member Stevens-Sollman: No, you wouldn't oppose
it. You would amend it.
Chairperson Marks: No, no, no. He's opposing the
Member Stevens-Sollman: Oh, you don't want that.
Chairperson Marks:
The motion -- the motion
passes eight to two, okay. That's resolved.
Member Jansen: I got nine to one.
Chairperson Marks: No, you had two nos.
Mr. Jansen: Like I said, I got it eight to two.
Chairperson Marks:

Eight to two.

Okay, so,

Michael, do you have a motion?
Member Olson:
Yes, I move that we take the
"Courage, Confidence, and Character" that was
recently passed but also add the anniversary Trefoil
to the obverse, thereby depicting 100 years, and on
the reverse of the selected design replace the "100
Years" with either "Girl Scouts" or "Girl Scouting."
Chairperson Marks: Oh, so it had nothing to do with
Jeanne's motion.
Member Stevens-Sollman: It has nothing to do.
Chairperson Marks: You want to take -- you want
to change this Trefoil to the 100 Trefoil, this one
right here, the bottom center on the obverse, and
then you want to replace "100 Years" on the reverse
with -Member Olson: "Girl Scouts" or "Girl Scouting,"
whatever would be more -Member Bugeja: I have a friendly amendment to
that. Those are actually two very different ideas,
and if you favor one but you don't favor the other,
your option is to vote against it, so why don't you
do each one?
Chairperson Marks: Two motions?
Member Bugeja: Two motions.
Chairperson Marks: Are you open to that?
Member Olson: Okay. Well, I would have been
open to all three and voted for the one if we had all
three in a package.
Chairperson Marks: That's not how we're doing it.
Member Olson: A one at a time thing, I mean -Chairperson Marks: Well, you don't have a second
yet. Do you want to hold to what you said and see
if you got a second?

Member Olson: Sure.
Member Hoge: I'll second.
Chairperson Marks: Okay. You second? Okay, so
the motion is to replace the Trefoil on the obverse
with the 100 Trefoil, and then on the reverse
replace the words "100 Years" with "Girl Scouts" or
"Girl Scouting."
Member Olson: And, I guess, maybe defer to the
Would you prefer "Girl Scouts" or "Girl
Ms. Cruz: Girl Scouts.
Chairperson Marks: Okay.
Member Olson: Girl Scouts.
Chairperson Marks: Okay. Is everyone clear on the
Member Jansen: Let me make sure I am clear.
There is a motion on the table for the obverse to
take the Trefoil and do what with it?
Chairperson Marks: Replace it with the 100 Trefoil.
Member Jansen: Okay.
Chairperson Marks: The one that has the numerals
Member Jansen: Okay, and on the Reverse 6, state
the "100 Years" at the six o'clock position and
replace it with the words "Girl Scouts," plural.
Chairperson Marks: Yes.
Mr. Everhart: Can I make a comment before you go
-Chairperson Marks: Yes, please.
Mr. Everhart: What I would do is take out the "100
Years." Put the "Girl Scouts" where "E Pluribus" is,

and put "E Pluribus" where "100 Years" is, because
there's more space around them to put the larger
amount of text.
Chairperson Marks: Yes, good idea.
Member Moran: Say that again, Don. I didn't quite
hear it.
Mr. Everhart: If you're taking out "100 Years," put
"E Pluribus" there on one line where "100 Years" is,
and then put "Girl Scouts of America" or whatever
where "E Pluribus" is, because there's more room
around the rim.
Member Moran: I like that. I like it a lot. That's a
good -Chairperson Marks:
E Pluribus Unum is much
longer than Girl Scouts. Okay, Erik, do you have
that motion?
Member Jansen: I got it.
Chairperson Marks: With Don's -Member Jansen: I do, and I'll read it back to make
sure we get it all clear.
Chairperson Marks:
move on this.

Okay, go ahead.

I want to

Member Jansen: We've passed one motion, and I
have two other motions on the table at the same
Chairperson Marks: Okay.
Member Jansen: The first of those motions I am
going to say on the Reverse Number 9, excuse me,
Reverse Number 6, which we adopted, we are going
to replace the "100 Years" phraseology at the six
o'clock position with "Girl Scouts," and we're going
to swap that Girl Scout phrase with "E Pluribus
Unum," which is currently on the perimeter. The
motion by Michael seconded by Robert here. Did I

get it?
Chairperson Marks: Yes, but there's more than
that. It was to change the Trefoil on -Member Jansen: That's a separate motion.
Chairperson Marks: No, it's all -- it's all wrapped up
in one. We can do it in one and be a lot more
Member Jansen:
In that case, we'll also
recommend on the Obverse Number 9 as adopted
that the 100 years phrase replace the Trefoil in the
six o'clock position.
Chairperson Marks: The 100 Trefoil. We still have
a Trefoil.
Member Jansen: He is going to put the number 100
in the Trefoil.
Chairperson Marks: That's all one motion.
Member Jansen: Okay, got it.
Chairperson Marks:
the second?

Okay, and, Robert, were you

Member Hoge: Yes.
Chairperson Marks: Yes. Okay.
Member Jansen: One motion.
Chairperson Marks: That motion was moved by
Michael Olson and seconded by Robert.
Member Jansen: Yes.
Chairperson Marks: Okay. Any quick discussion?
Member Bugeja:
On the reverse, we're moving "E
Pluribus Unum" in smaller font size upward, and
underneath we're putting "Girl Scouts" in a larger

Chairperson Marks: Yes.
Member Bugeja: Or what Don said, taking that 100
and putting it on the obverse.
Member Olson:
that 100.

No, we're not.

We're eliminating

Member Bugeja: We're taking -- yes, it's gone.
Member Olson: Yes, the text is going away.
Trefoil is on the front.


Chairperson Marks: Is everyone clear? Erik?
Member Jansen: A question for the artists and
those who want to pretend they are in the room, if
we put the number 100 on top of this, what is
currently an empty Trefoil platform, should that be
additional relief above the Trefoil, or is it depressed
Member Wastweet:
mark that will --

They actually have a service

Member Jansen: To the sculptor, then, depressed,
additional raising, the number 100?
Chairperson Marks: We'll let them decide.
Member Wastweet: One level is -Member Jansen:
One level, so it's an outlying
Trefoil, not a platform Trefoil.
Member Wastweet:
existing logo sheet.

Which is consistent with their

Member Jansen: Got it. I just couldn't tell from the
artwork what it was, and I wanted to be clear. The
other question I have, but I'll defer it.
Chairperson Marks:
the motion? We're
one motion. Okay,
All those in favor,

Okay. Is everyone clear about
doing a lot of things with the
then I'll move to the question.
please raise your hand. It's

Member Jansen: Two, four, six, eight, nine.
Chairperson Marks: I saw unanimous. Donald, did
you vote?
Member Jansen: Ten, got it.
Chairperson Marks: Okay, that's the unanimous
vote for that package of changes. Okay. Okay,
Member Jansen: I have a discussion on Reverse 6.
This is a busy -- in terms of relief, even what's flat,
there's a lot of platforms here. Tell me if I'm nuts.
Workers from the Mint tell me that.
Do we need something in the kind of southeast side
of this coin to offset the half-shade texturing behind
the head and the depressed, the incused "United
States of"? In particular, should we incuse the
dollar sign and the one?
Chairperson Marks: That's a question for Donald.
Mr. Everhart: You can't. The dollar sign is on the
field. It has to be raised.
Chairperson Marks: Yes.
Member Jansen: So you can't -- you can't depress
below the base?
Chairperson Marks: No.
Member Jansen: Okay. Never mind.
Chairperson Marks: Okay. Are we all clear where
we've gone with the design? Are we all settled on
that? I think we've got a beautiful pairing here,
folks. This is a beautiful pairing. Thank you all.
Okay, we've got -- it's now nearly 12:30.
I'm going to say let's be back here at 1:45. That
gives us the hour and 15 for lunch that we had on
the agenda, but, please, we're going to need the
time this afternoon, so please be here promptly to

begin our session at 1:45. We are in recess.
(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the
record at 12:29 p.m. and resumed at 1:47 p.m.)
Review and discuss candidate designs for the Code
Talkers Congressional Gold Medals
Chairperson Marks: We're back on the record. The
agenda has as our next item the review and
discussion of candidate designs for the Code Talkers
Congressional Gold Medals. Ron Harrigal?
Mr. Harrigal: Okay, great. Thank you. Thank you,
Gary. We have here a guest, Mr. John Plata of
Hobbs, Straus, Dean & Walker, LLP.
He'll be
speaking on behalf of the Comanche and then also
for the Kiowa, as well, so.
Mr. Plata: Thanks for your time. Again, I'm John
Plata. I'm a member of the Comanche Nation. I'm
also an attorney here in D.C., and we're outside
counsel for Comanche Nation.
The last time I was here, we discussed the designs,
and the tribe appreciates having the opportunity to
come back and kind of follow a similar process that
was followed for the Navajo Code Talker Medals.
I received copies of the reverse and the obverse for
the Comanche Code Talker Medals from the point
for Comanche, who is Lanny Asepermy, and from
Betty, also, today, and I just want to go over the
design that the descendants of the Code Talkers
chose and kind of talk about the design elements
here just briefly.
What I have in my hand -- I don't know if you guys
have it -- is the Comanche Nation Reverse 2 design.
So that's -- this design on the -- there you go.
So you see the Comanche language around the
outside. Those two words essentially mean Code
Talker. I guess if you want to strictly interpret it, it
means Metal Talker Soldier, so the first word,

Puhihwitekwa, is Metal Talker, and that refers to the
boxes that the soldiers spoke through in combat.
The next word, Ekasahpana, means -- literally, it
means red sash. It was a term that our tribe used
for United States soldiers originally, because they
wore red sashes, so it's a reference to the officers,
but over time the word became used more as a
general term for soldier.
So, in the bottom, one of the things that they
wanted to make sure was on this coin was that
World War I and World War II were on this side of
the coin. We had five Code Talkers in World War I
and 14 in World War II.
Then, in the center of the design you see the horse
with the warrior, the mounted warrior, and that's
directly from our tribal logo on our flag.
Comanche are known as the Lords of the Plains.
The horse has a very central role in our tribal
For hundreds of years we were known to have the
most efficient and most effective light cavalry in the
world, and so that's the design there. The rider has
a staff, I mean, I'm sorry, has a spear or a lance in
his hand, and he has a shield in his left hand.
The two designs that are directly underneath the
Comanche language, you have the 90th Division,
which is the emblem which is for the World War I
Code Talkers on the upper left-hand side, and that's
a -- what it is, it's a T and an O.
That division was comprised mainly of cowboy
soldiers from World War -- from Texas in World War
I and from Native soldiers from Oklahoma, so thus
their emblem, TO. Their motto in World War I was
"Tough Hombre," you know, sans the H, and it was
just -So it's very -- that division has a very interesting
history, but the other insignia is the Fourth Infantry
Division for the Comanches that served in World

War II.
So this is the design the descendants chose for the
Reverse 2, and that's their preference. If you have
any questions, please let me know.
Otherwise, I'll move on to the Obverse 2, which is, I
think, simply the same design that they had chosen
previously, and you have the Comanche Spirit
Warrior immediately behind the soldier holding his
lance with the eagle feathers, and he's whispering
into the soldier's ear.
This is the -- this is a picture that is a replica of
what we have in front of our tribal complex in
Lawton, Oklahoma. There's a statute of this in the
center of the tribal complex. Oh, there you go. So
that's what it's meant to represent.
That's really all I have on Comanche. I just wanted
to again thank you for the opportunity for us to go
back and really design a coin that the tribe can feel
really good about and take ownership with and that
the descendants of the Code Talkers have approved.
Yes, ma'am?
Member Wastweet: I have a question. So the
statue that you have at your center, was that artist
involved in the design of this at all?
Mr. Plata: I don't think so. I don't think so. I'm
not sure, and I could ask Lanny. I don't know if he
(OTR Conversation)
Mr. Plata: We had permission to use it.
Member Wastweet: That's it. Okay.
Chairperson Marks: I just want to make sure. I'm
not clear. Are your preferences Obverse 2 and
Reverse 2? Is that what I understand?
Mr. Plata: Yes.

Chairperson Marks: Okay. All right. Thank you.
Mr. Plata: You're welcome.
Chairperson Marks: Ron?
Mr. Harrigal: Okay, so, just a little rewind here, go
through a little bit of the background. Public Law
110-420 authorizes the Secretary of the Treasury to
strike Congressional medals to recognize the
dedication and valor of Native American Code
Talkers to the United States Armed Services during
World War I and World War II.
Unique gold medals will be produced for each Native
American tribe that has member -- that has a
member or more that served as a Code Talker. The
medal will reside at the Smithsonian.
Silver duplicate medals will be presented to the
specific Code Talkers or their next of kin. Bronze
duplicates will be for sale to the public, and this is a
three-inch Congressional gold medal.
The process that we followed, the Deputy Secretary
of Defense prepared a list of identified Code Talkers.
The list is continuously updated as we go back
through the records and discover additional Code
Talkers that were identified and verified as serving.
To date, we have 22 tribes that are on the list. The
22 tribes were contacted to establish a design
concept and the appointment of an official liaison
who worked with the tribal historian and other
experts on the design review.
The U.S. Army Center of Military History and the
Department of Defense-appointed liaison reviewed
obverse designs to ensure that military uniforms are
historically accurate.
We do have some last-minute comments that came
in from the U.S. Army Center of Military History, so
we will be doing some slight tweaking for historical
accuracy on the uniforms.

Okay, subsequent to our last meeting, we
restructured the program.
Formerly, we were
looking at a common side for all 22 tribes, being the
reverse, and a unique obverse.
Based on the Committee's recommendations, we
are going back. We went back, and we are doing
unique obverses and reverses for each tribe. The
obverse design now features images that represent
the Code Talkers' dedication to military service,
while the reverse design features iconic symbols or
elements unique to the tribe or the tribal seal.
There are no legislative requirements -- legislated
required inscriptions. However, there is a strong
preference for, on the obverse, tribal name, the
word "Code Talkers," and some sort of language
inscription unique to the tribe. The reverse would
have World War I and/or World War II, as
applicable, and Act of Congress.
Today's meeting, we will cover four of the 22
candidates, Comanche Nation, the Kiowa Tribe, the
Santee Sioux Nation, and the Tlingit Tribe. Okay,
Mr. John Plata has given us a brief background on
the Comanche Nation, and before we get to the
Kiowa, he will also be giving us a little update on
that, as well.
So, let's go to the designs.
We have three
variations on the obverse designs. The variations
feature the Comanche Code and Spirit Talker
Monument located at the Comanche Nation
headquarters north of Lawton, Fort Sill, Oklahoma.
The imagery for the medal was chosen by the
majority of the Comanche Code Talker descendants.
According to the Comanche Nation, "The image is
how we honor our Code Talkers."
The Comanche Nation chose the inscription "People"
in Native language, because it's how the nation
refers to itself. Inscriptions are "People" in the
Comanche language and "Code Talkers."

Here we have Obverse 1, a variation on Obverse 2,
and then another variation Obverse 3. Here we
have a picture of the actual statue that is in
Okay, reverse designs.
The design variations
feature the Comanche Nation's logo, the 90th
Infantry Division insignia on the left, and the 4th
Infantry Division insignia on the right.
Comanche Code Talkers wore the 90th Infantry
Division insignia in World War I and the 4th Infantry
Division insignia in World War II.
Comanche logo features a horse and rider, symbolic
of the Comanche Nation as lords of the plain. The
Comanche are also considered the greatest light
cavalry, as we heard, in the eyes of those who met
them in battle.
Inscriptions on Reverse 1, Honor, Dedication, Valor,
World War I and World War II and Act of Congress,
and on Reverse 2, Native inscription of soldiers
talking on phones made of metal, the language, and
World War I, World War II, and Act of Congress.
Here is an image of the Comanche logo.
So here we have -- on one sheet here I have the
three obverse and reverse. I'll turn it over to you,
Gary, to give us comments.
Chairperson Marks: Okay. My feeling on this is, if
it's possible, can we go through all four medals and
then have all of our discussion inclusive?
Mr. Harrigal: That would be fine. I'll be doing a lot
of flipping on the charts here, but that's -- we can
deal with that.
Chairperson Marks: Yes, if you could move on, the
next one would be the Kiowa.
Mr. Harrigal: Yes.
Chairperson Marks: I want to go ahead, and let's
just do your report in toto.

Mr. Harrigal: Okay. Again, the Kiowa Tribe here,
Mr. John Plata will give us some feedback from the
Mr. Plata:
You can go ahead and read your
summary first.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. Okay. All right. On the
obverse design we have two variations, a design
feature, Code Talkers from the Kiowa Tribe.
The design is inscribed, Kiowa Tribe, Code Talkers,
and 689th Field Artillery, Europe, the U.S. Army
Unit in which they served. So we have two different
versions here.
On the reverse, the design features variations of the
Kiowa Tribe logo depicting the Kiowa warrior on
horseback with bow and arrow prepared for battle.
The cape covering his back was taken from Mexican
officer during the battle and is worn as a war
Ten feathers represent the ten sacred medicine
bundles of the tribe, and the buffalo head is
representative of the Kiowa's respect for the buffalo,
which provided food, clothing, shelter, and weapons
to sustain them through the years on the Plains.
Inscriptions are Dedication, Honor, Valor, World War
II, and Act of Congress.
Just a note, the Kiowa Tribe only served in World
War II, and so we have it for the -- here are the
designs we have, the three designs here, slight
variation in 2 and 3. Let's go back here.
Okay, there's Design 1. You notice the buffalo
head, differences in Design 2, which is more
representative of their seal, Design 3, that variation,
and a picture of the logo here.
Chairperson Marks:
from the tribe?

Ron, are there preferences

Mr. Harrigal: Mr. Plata can speak to that.

Mr. Plata: Actually, the copies that I had didn't
have the label on them, but if you could go back to
-- okay, I guess it's Reverse 2, I believe, which that
one is pretty close to the Kiowa tribal log. I think
this is the one that I received by email today as the
preference of the descendants of the Code Talkers.
Chairperson Marks: Right.
Mr. Plata: Then on the obverse -Mr. Harrigal: It was Number 1.
Mr. Plata: Yes, Number 1, exactly.
Mr. Harrigal: This one.
Chairperson Marks: One?
Mr. Plata: That is correct. That's their preference,
and, really, I don't want to repeat everything you
just said. You know, the only thing I could add is
that they were only in World War II. There was
three Code Talkers.
They were actually not a part of 689th Unit. They
were detailed to that unit after the officers realized
they spoke Kiowa, and they got them together.
There was two infantrymen and one from artillery
division that were placed together to assist with the
Code Talker effort for the 689th. That's really all I
Mr. Harrigal: Okay.
Chairman Marks: Thank you.
Mr. Plata: Yes.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay, the next one we're going to go
through here is the Santee Sioux Tribe, and we
have a guest here to speak on behalf. That is Roger
Trudell. He is the Chairman of the Santee Sioux
Nation and will speak on behalf of the tribe.
Mr. Trudell: Thank you. That's Roger Trudell. I am

the Chairman of the Santee Sioux Nation. We're a
part of the Great Sioux Nation, and we are the Dspeaking people, the D-dialect of the Great Sioux
We have one for sure, a Code Talker in World War
II. I know that we had like four or five in World War
I. We're not the biggest of the Sioux Tribes or the
Sioux Bands.
We, you know, we're glad to
Maybe a little explanation on our, what we selected,
our seal of the tribe, which was designed by a tribal
member in 1934 and composed of the eagle there,
arrowhead, also an Indian head.
Of course, you can't see all of the things in there,
the they've been somewhat kind of distorted over
the years, but there was a sunburst behind -- in
front of the Indian as he looked forward to the
future and a spear in the Eagle's talons and, of
course, what everybody calls a peace pipe, but we
call it chanupa, kind of signifies, you know, the
strength of prayer.
The eagle is the messenger to the Great Spirit.
Also, the eagle is, you know, is a strong and brave,
you know, member of the wildlife, so kind of
indicates, you know, our strength in war and peace.
Originally, we were from the Big Woods of
Minnesota, and due to the 1862 Dakota-United
States conflict, we were -- many of our people were
interred at St. Paul area.
Of course, we
Our tribal members were -- 38 of them were hung
in Mankato, Minnesota, in 1862, the day after
Christmas, and the rest were imprisoned by Des
Moines area, Iowa, and then moved across land to
somewhere, taken to Crow Creek and then
eventually -That's in South Dakota and eventually ended up
where we're at now in Nebraska, so we've been in

Nebraska since about 1863, 1864, pardon me, '65.
Then, I believe on the other side I notice that we
don't actually have the word "Code Talker" in there,
but we do have our traditional name of ourselves.
We are the Mdewakanton Wahpekute people, and
we are what they considered the Lower Sioux at the
time the Minnesota conflict, meant the Spirit
Dwellers at Spirit Lake and the Shooters Among the
And then, of course, we'd like to have Santee
Dakota Sioux on there because of our -- we are the
D-speakers and the kind of Sioux, Sioux Bands.
I would like to thank you all for, you know, having
the opportunity to come and at least talk a little. I
think somewhere it's probably important that we do
have the Code Talker on there, so we may have to
revise ours somewhat to get the Code Talker in
there. So thank you for your time.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. Now, the indication is Design
Number 1 here with the barbed wire over Design
Number 2 is preferred. Is that correct?
Mr. Trudell: Yes, correct.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. As far as the obverse goes,
and the inscription says, in rough translation,
"Dwellers at Spirit Lake and Shooters Amongst the
On the reverse design, this design is the preferred
design, Design Number 1, which is most closely
represented by the tribal logo. Design Number 2 is
a stylized version of it, and the same with Number
3. That's with a little more artistic license on the
design. So there is the tribal logo.
The last one that we have, okay, here we have the
designs all together.
Member Hoge: Ron, was there an organizational
preference on the reverses?

Mr. Harrigal: On the reverse, yes, Number 1.
Member Hoge: Thank you.
Mr. Harrigal: It most closely represented the logo.
Member Scarinci: Could I ask this, Ron? Did they
feel strongly? Was it a close call between 1 and 2?
Was there division at all, the people in favor of 2?
Mr. Trudell: Our people favored 1.
Member Scarinci: Pretty solidly?
Mr. Trudell: Yes.
Member Scarinci: Okay.
Member Olson: And you had indicated that you
would like to have Code Talker on the obverse, the
heads side of this?
Mr. Trudell: I believe that's very important to, you
know, to what we're trying to do, I guess.
Member Olson: Okay.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. The last one we'll be looking at
here is the Tlingit Tribe. On the obverse design we
have two variations here, design variations that
feature just basically -Basically what we have is minor, minor changes
between -- the design has antenna on the
equipment here. It's raised. He's talking on the
radio, sending coded messages. You have the radio
waves coming off to represent the communication.
He's kneeling on his right knee, or, excuse me, he's
kneeling on one knee and holding the rifle in his
hand to basically assure that he's ready for battle in
case of attack, and we have generic foliage in the
back, in the background.
Inscriptions are the Tlingit Warriors, Code Talkers,
and Number 2 is a slight variation with and without
the foliage. We have the first one that shows the

foliage and the second one without.
Chairperson Marks: Ron?
Mr. Harrigal: Yes?
Chairperson Marks: Did you say -- it's kind of hard
to hear at this end.
Mr. Harrigal: Oh, I'm sorry.
Chairperson Marks:

Did you say that there's a

Mr. Harrigal: Preference for Number 1.
Chairperson Marks: Okay.
Mr. Harrigal: I did not say, Gary, so thank you for
bringing that up. On the reverse, the preference for
this is Design 2. This is the variations based on the
killer whale headdress representing the Tlingit Code
Talkers of World War II who were affiliated with the
Killer Whale Clan.
The Clan often wears the headdress in their
ceremonies. Inscriptions are World War II, which
they only served in, the Killer Whale Clan, and Act
of Congress.
So we have this version, and we have the second
version, which is basically your artistic element of
having the circle element on it. This is the preferred
design, Number 2. Here is some imagery of the
headdress used in ceremonial, ceremonial purposes.
So that's what we have. Gary, I'll turn it over to
you, and we'll go through the slides as -Chairperson Marks:


Are there technical

Member Scarinci:
Just a question.
The Kiowa
Tribe, their preference is Obverse 1 and what
Mr. Harrigal: Just one second.

Chairperson Marks: Other questions for -Mr. Harrigal: Did we get it? Obverse 1 and Reverse
2, yes.
Chairperson Marks: Heidi?
Member Wastweet: Ron, on that same one, Kiowa
2 Reverse, can you talk about what the shading
represents in the background?
Mr. Harrigal: My computer is giving me a little bit of
trouble keeping up here. I'm sorry, Heidi, your
question was?
Member Wastweet: Can you talk about what the
shading designates in the background behind the
horse, the gradiated texture?
Mr. Harrigal: That will be a gradiated texture that
we're looking to put on the medal. It'll be a texture
and not a frosting element.
Member Wastweet: Okay.
Mr. Harrigal: It'll be -- it'll be heavier towards the
top and lighter towards the bottom.
Member Wastweet:
generated or hand-done?




Mr. Everhart: Depends on which artist does it, and
I have a feeling it will be computer.
Mr. Harrigal:
I mean, we get a little better
consistency if we can do it with a computer, but
we'll have to -- we'll have to see how it looks. I
mean, if we end up doing it by hand and it doesn't
look right, we'll have the computer generated it.
Mr. Everhart: It could be done either way.
Mr. Harrigal: We need to get consistency here so it
doesn't look like it's an off pattern of some sort.
Member Wastweet: It looks great on the artwork,
but, Don, do you think that that is going to cut back

on the contrast of the -Mr. Everhart: No, I think it'll set off the horse and
rider very nicely.
Member Wastweet: You do? Okay.
Mr. Everhart: Yes, I mean, I know how I would
handle it if I was going to sculpt it. I can visualize
that, and it'll look pretty good, I think.
Member Wastweet: Okay, because if it gets too
heavy, it could detract.
Mr. Everhart: Yes, well, that's the kind of thing you
work out while you're working on it. You know, you
just visually get cues as you're progressing through
the piece until you finally come to the conclusion.
You know what I'm talking about.
Member Wastweet: Yes, and if you were doing it,
would you do it all by hand?
Mr. Everhart: I would, yes.
Member Wastweet: So that you could -Mr. Everhart:
I'm not real proficient with the
computer as far as sculpting. In fact, I'm not
proficient at all.
Member Wastweet: Okay. Thank you.
Chairperson Marks: Others?
Member Stevens-Sollman: This is really very picky,
extremely picky.
Chairperson Marks: Go ahead.
Member Stevens-Sollman: But I noticed on the
example that was shown, this horse and rider are,
you know, designed for the tribe. However, I'm just
-- yes, the front leg, I'm hoping that the artist
understands that it's a color. It looks like the front
leg has a color.

You know, the horse is colored with spots, you
know, a spotted horse, and that front leg, it should
be round, and in this drawing to me it looks like it
has a bump of some sort, and I'm hoping when the
artist designs it, because it's a beautiful piece, I
hope he understands that that's a muscle.
Member Wastweet:
lightning bolt.

In the drawing it looks like a

Member Stevens-Sollman: Well, the left side is the
lightning bolt, but the far right, that just really -- I
think it's an inaccurate depiction of a horse, a horse
like -- see what I -- right here, this little -Member Wastweet: Oh, that. Oh, that, yes.
Member Stevens-Sollman:
It comes up in this
photograph, in this, you know, Xerox copy. It's not
reading as a sculpted leg.
Member Wastweet: Yes, if you look at Reverse 3,
the leg is correctly drawn there.
Member Stevens-Sollman: No, Reverse 3 is not
really -- I don't want to talk about Reverse 3. I just
want to talk about Reverse 2. Okay.
Chairperson Marks: Is that all?
Member Stevens-Sollman: That's all. Thank you.
Chairperson Marks: Any others? Okay, let's get to
our comments. Once again, I'm going to go ahead
and start off. Just for the purpose of -- clearly, the
designs that we have, folks, it has a lot to do with
the tribes and the nations and the images that are
important to them.
So, as simply a member of the Committee, my
instinct, my direction is to go with the designs that
the tribes have indicated are their preferences. I
don't think there's a whole lot of difference, and I
can't justify for myself why we, when they're so
similar, that we would not go with the tribal

So, my simple input is that those designs that were
just indicated to us as the preferences I'm going to
go with. So, with that, I'm going to -- I'm going to
go over to Erik, and we'll just work our way in a
reverse pattern from what we did this morning
around the table.
Member Jansen: I'm actually going to start at the
back, because that's where I have any exceptions
and questions, and this is really to the sculptors
who can really feel the largest differences between
the appropriateness for a coin versus the
appropriateness for a medal.
I'm going to start with the reverse of the Tlingit
design and just ask very simple. We don't have two
concentric circles. We have a funny spiral on the
Reverse 2 that's missing on Reverse 1.
Now, my instinct says Reverse 1 is a nicer medal
design just because of the elimination of that
unnecessary complexity versus the tails on the -whatever the flyers are on the tail itself. Your
thoughts? Yes, I would go -- I would say isn't 1 a
better design for a medal than 2?
Member Stevens-Sollman: Well, you know what? I
love 2, and I love it because I believe those circles
are representing the waves, the radio waves.
Member Jansen: No, no, no, no.
you're on the wrong one.

You're on a --

Participant: No, she's not on either.
Member Jansen: Oh, okay. There you go.
Member Stevens-Sollman:
I'm on the reverse.
Isn't that what you were talking about?
Member Jansen: Yes, okay. I didn't link that to the
radio waves.
Member Stevens-Sollman: And so -Member Jansen:

I just saw them as a flat-out

design element.
Member Stevens-Sollman: No, and I see them as a,
you know, continuity between the obverse and
reverse, where you have the radio waves going out.
Member Jansen: Okay.
Member Stevens-Sollman: And then this is kind of
almost coming back in.
Member Jansen: Okay.
Member Stevens-Sollman: I like it.
Member Wastweet: I agree, and I would ask that
they continue behind the tassels. I think, because
this is a large medal, it can withhold the complexity
and that detail.
Member Jansen: So that they don't disappear in the
background state that they are.
Mr. Harrigal: So, Heidi, you're talking right in this
area right here?
Member Wastweet: Yes.
Mr. Harrigal: When you get down below here, you
wouldn't see it.
Member Wastweet: Right.
Mr. Harrigal: So we would extend these two lines
down in through here.
Member Wastweet: Exactly.
Member Bugeja: It would give it depth and also
mirror sound waves and killer whale waves. It has
a nice resonance.
Member Jansen:
Obverse of the Santee Sioux
design, I personally find the barbed wire really
distracting, but I suppose that's a personal
preference, so I would personally go either way on
that, depending on what I hear from others.

I'm fine all the way back to the very beginning when
we talk about the Comanches, and I have a
question for the sculptors again.
Is Obverse 3
difficult to sculpt because of the dual planes of
those two characters?
Mr. Harrigal: Obverse 3, I think, yes, the -Mr. Everhart:

I'm sorry, Erik, what was the

Member Jansen: It shows a Code Talker with the
spirit behind him, and you're really only seeing
shoulders and up, as opposed to the full bodies. It's
Comanche Nation Obverse 03.
Mr. Everhart: What's the question?
Member Jansen: The question is will it be difficult
to sculpt the spirit speaker behind him without it
looking like a portrait of two people?
Mr. Everhart: I don't think so. I mean, it's clearly
two levels, and you can step it down behind the first
-- the foreground soldier's shoulder, you step it
down practically to field level and then raise it up so
that maybe the head height is maybe half to threequarters of the total maximum relief of the
foreground figure.
So I would have to say that that's not an issue. You
could also texture to, you know, create more of a
Member Jansen: Thank you. That's all.
Chairperson Marks: Okay. I was -- I was negligent
in making a comment that I intended to make
before I started the discussion, and that is just to
recognize that at the last meeting in February we
looked at the initial designs that were offered to us.
We had a thorough discussion about establishing a
pattern or a common approach for all the 22 tribes
We made a recommendation to the Mint staff to

come back to us with what they've brought back to
us, and that is a design that's unique for each tribe
on the obverse and then a design on the reverse
that relates to the symbolism that each tribe or
nation might have.
I want to recognize the Mint and the Mint staff for
their responsiveness to that request and to let you
know that in our discussions among Committee
members I can tell you that we are very grateful
and appreciate the fact that you were responsive to
our request.
I think the product of that is going to be an
assemblage of medals when they're all complete
that, although all very different and unique, there
will be a very harmonizing rhythm, if you will, to the
collection. So, for that I just want to pass along my
thanks, and I believe I'm passing along the thanks
of the Committee generally.
So, with that, Robert, would you please go forward?
Member Hoge: Okay. These are quite interesting.
They have a lot of traditional elements and a few
more modern sorts of things.
One thing that I noticed, though, is that it seems to
me the tribes have actually kind of done themselves
a disservice by not doing more in the way of
traditional arts of some of the people. With the
exception of the reverse of the Tlingit piece, these
are just sort of modern logo trademark kinds of
I mean, they truly are the tribal emblems, but they
don't really reach into the traditions and their arts
from the past, and they have a flatness and a
busyness to them that I think is unfortunate for
something that's going to appear on a medal. You
take what appears essentially as a two-dimensional
artwork, a flag or a poster or something like that.
I don't like seeing the whole body of the statue on
the Comanche medal, because really this is

something that was intended to be a large threedimensional art piece, and it's kind of weird and
disturbing to see an anguipede, as this spirit
creature is, on a medal. It's okay, I mean, but it
relates to some other aspects of art.
Unfortunately, I think that the horses on these
emblems look like mooses. If you look at the -- you
could see what I suppose is the mane of the horse
or feathers or something coming back. It looks like
the antlers of a moose and the shape of the nose
and mouth of the horse is pretty moose-like.
The big, long legs, especially that stride with the leg
sticking out the front, I mean, these are like running
moose emblems. I just don't see that as being the
warriors of the plains and greatest light cavalry.
I think of, you know, a fast Indian pony and a
Comanche, you know, shoot his arrow under the
horse's neck or below the belly or something like
that. To me, that doesn't really say the Lord of the
Plains in the same way it might have if there was
something a little bit more traditional.
As far as the similarity of the obverses is concerned,
I guess we want to have something that ties each
one, each tribe to every series. We could see a
whole grouping here for every tribe.
It's a World War II soldier wearing similar uniform,
and it's only recognizable as a World War II soldier,
so we need all the information about Code Talkers,
the names of the tribal peoples, their native names.
I like seeing the Numumu along with Comanche and
the other native words. I think that's the most
important part of these, because that's really the
sense of code talking, and I think I'd rather see that
emphasized, rather than just the images of the
soldiers. I don't have specific changes on it.
Chairperson Marks: Thank you, Robert. Jeanne?
Member Stevens-Sollman:

Are we speaking to all

four? Are we speaking to all four tribes?
I was particularly excited that the preference for the
Comanche Nation was Obverse 1 and Obverse 2,
because those are the ones that I thought were the
strongest of the presented pieces. It's interesting to
know that you all worked so hard the last time, and
the Mint did come forth and I think presented a
beautiful package.
I was interested to know if the background to
Number 2, the obverse or the reverse of Number 1
for the Comanche, is that also going to be a stepdown or textured?
Mr. Everhart: Textured, stickled.
Member Stevens-Sollman:
just very nice, very nice.


Yes, that's

The Kiowa Tribe, I also agree on the preferences. I
think the Obverse 1 was more simple, and I
especially liked the distinction of the circle going
partially around. I think that made it a stronger
piece, and I agree with the Reverse of Number 2
except for the little lump on his leg.
The barbed wire on the Santee Dakota Sioux piece I
found was very powerful. I believe it shows the
warrior being in his element and what he had to do
in order to survive in the situation, so I found that
not as disturbing.
And the Reverse, I think that the Reverse Number 1
is simple. I guess I would have liked to have seen a
circle around it, a second band around the eagle on
the reverse, but, actually, it's a powerful, strong
The other two I think are just too removed from the
original design of the tribe, and a final piece, I,
again, agree with the Obverse 1 and the Reverse 2
of the Tlingit tribe. I think they're very strong
pieces, and I also have to compliment the Mint on a
nice selection to present to us today.

Chairperson Marks: Thank you, Jeanne. Michael?
Member Moran: Fortunately, the tribes picked the
ones that I liked when I had strong preferences and
where I was -- I'll go with the tribe selections across
the board. I do think that particularly the one with
the barbed wire and the Santee Sioux, that was
You could see the difference in what that barbed
wire did. The Number 2, you don't really know
where he is or what he's doing, but you put that
barbed wire in there, and, boy, you do. Whoever
came up with that is to be complimented.
That's it. I'm going with the tribes.
Chairperson Marks: Thank you, Michael, and Heidi?
Member Wastweet: Well, what we lack in choices
we make up for in quality. Overall, I'm pleased with
these designs. I have a few small comments that
speak more to the artwork.
On the Comanche, on the preference, I agree with
Robert that this design was originally meant for a
three-dimensional in-the-round statue, and it
doesn't translate particularly well to the metal.
But, having said that, we must pick one of these
three, and I'm not opposed to the tribe's preference
of Number 2, but I caution that the fore-shortening
of the soldier's knee touching the ground is very
It reads okay in the drawing. It won't read as well
in the medal, and I would encourage the sculpture
department to take some license with that and work
on that fore-shortening. Do you agree with me,
Mr. Everhart: Actually, I don't, because I think that
these symbols are very sacred to the people, and I
think that we should adhere as closely to them as
we can.

Member Wastweet: I think if you -- I think that if
you were standing in front of the statue that this is
taken from, I think that that fore-shortening would
not look as awkward as it does in this particular
Member Jansen:
I think she's talking about
Obverse 2, and you're talking about reverses.
Mr. Everhart: Well, I'm talking about both, actually.
I think that there is meaning to the symbology for
the tribes, and I think that we need to respect that
and follow. If this is what they want, then we
should follow that.
Member Hoge: Are you saying the foreshortening of
the actual statue is not very well done?
Mr. Everhart: I'm not saying that. I haven't seen
the actual statue in the round.
Member Hoge: I agree. It looks like his right leg is
Mr. Everhart: Short.
Member Wastweet: Yes, it's just the interpretation,
the drawing's interpretation of the statue, I think. I
think -- were you working from photographs or from
Mr. Everhart: From photographs.
Member Wastweet: I think the photograph is not
portraying the statue as accurately as maybe if you
were standing there doing a sketch onsite.
Mr. Everhart: Well, I think we have to be careful
that we don't try to Europeanize their vision and
make it into ours. I think it should be unique to the
Member Moran: Can we put the image of the statue
back up there? I know we had it.
Mr. Harrigal:

Mr. Plata, did you want to say

Mr. Plata: Yes, I just want to say it's supposed to
be a picture of the statue. If the knee looks odd, I
agree that it looks shorter than the other leg, as
I've stood in front of the statue a hundred times,
and I don't think that the knee on the statue looks
short when you're looking at it and you're standing
in front of it.
I really don't think that tribal members would have
a problem with correcting the length of his thigh in
this picture or his leg just to make it look accurate.
I think that would be fine. As long as the main
focus of the picture is just that image, the length of
his leg doesn't Europeanize the picture.
Member Wastweet: Thank you for speaking up. I
also am looking at the handset that he's holding,
and was there originally a wire? It was hardwired,
right, to the box?
Member Hoge: Yes.
Member Wastweet: And so in the statue it looks
like the -- I'm having a hard time seeing in the
photograph because of the sun and shadows on it,
but that wire is not connected to anything.
It looks like it comes across his sleeve or
something, and that is -- when people look at this
medal, they're not going to be comparing it to a
photograph of the statue, and they may question
this as a technical error that the phone is not
connected to the box.
Mr. Harrigal: Yes, Heidi, we'll have to take a look at
that. I know on some of these we looked at that,
and it was distracting to have something coming
down that didn't look like the wire, per se.
We'll make sure that that's accurate to the actual
We'll go back and make sure we get

photography at the right angle and that we make
sure that all the right elements are in there.
Member Wastweet: Okay.
Mr. Harrigal: That is really meant to symbolize the
statue, and if the elements are there, we'll put it in
the sculpt.
Member Wastweet: Okay.
Mr. Harrigal: That's one of those historical accuracy
things that we tend to do as a final check before we
actually get into sculpt.
Member Wastweet: Okay. So then, on the reverse I
understand that we are adhering to an existing
patch, but, again, the viewer of this medal is not
necessarily going to be comparing it to the patch,
and patches by nature of the construction are a bit
Looking at the back legs of the horse, the lower
hoof doesn't attach correctly, so while this may be
accurate to the patch, it's betraying the symbology
of the horse, and, you know, I think to try to hold
ourselves too close to try and follow the patch we
betray some accuracy.
I think it's unfair to restrict ourselves too tightly to
that patch, and I also want to note where the -what is this symbol on the left-hand side, the T and
the O in the square?
Mr. Everhart: It's an Army unit.
Member Wastweet: Army unit, thank you, Army
unit patch.
It's coming out of the circle and
touching the W, and I find that looks sloppy, and it
could easily be moved a little to the right in your
final cleanup, if you would.
Mr. Everhart: I agree.
Member Wastweet:
So those
comments about the artwork.

are just small
As far as the

selection of the pieces, I'd go with the tribal
Then, the next is the Kiowa. On the Obverse 1, I
agree that this is a better composition, but I'm
really not liking the treatment of the edge of the
ground. It makes it look like a floating ice patch.
In the attempt to cut off the line, it would have
been more effective with just a single line, rather
than a hard edge like ice, and if we could give the
artist some license to finish that edge a little
differently, I think it would help a lot. I find that
very distracting.
On the reverse, we've already talked about the
texture, and I think the tribal preference is fine
there. So, on to the next.
I, too, have a strong preference for the barbed wire.
I think it adds a sense of danger that tells a story,
and I want to comment that I'm usually not in favor
of showing a face in an upward position like that,
but because we're talking about a Congressional
Gold Medal, which has a good depth to it and the
material and all of those considerations, along with
the way that this is carefully drawn, I think this is
the exception to the rule. It is going to work. I
wanted to make note of that.
Mr. Everhart:
barbed wire?

Can I make a comment about the

Member Wastweet: Yes.
Mr. Everhart: I think it's very symbolic, because
the barbed wire to me represents the war that is
enslaving people, but the Code Talker is sending his
signals out, and they're getting away from this. The
whole purpose is to end the war, so I think that's
very effective.
Member Wastweet: Yes. That's a good comment.
I agree, so a strong preference for that. On the
reverse, I'm going to stray from the herd. I prefer

2 on the reverse.
I think it's a beautiful interpretation of the original
patch. It maintains the symbology on the original
patch at the back of the Indian head and the middle
of the arrowhead.
I don't think that's going to read well on the medal.
I think it's a difficult thing to sculpt effectively, and
the crudeness of the eagle, which looks fine on the
patch, I think doesn't translate well to the medal.
I'm very much in favor of the artistic interpretation
in Number 2, and I think it tells the story just as
well and in a more beautiful way.
On Reverse 3, I think this interpretation gets too far
away from the original patch, but I'd like to see it
recycled and used for something in the future,
because it's a nice drawing of an eagle.
Going forward on the Tlingit, I agree with the tribe's
preference on Number 1. I like the foliage, and on
the reverse we already talked about extending that
spiral behind the tassels, and, other than that, I
think that's a beautiful design, and I'm excited to
see it in three dimensions. That's it.
Chairperson Marks: Okay. Thank you, Heidi. Mike?
Member Olson: Okay. My strong preference would
also go with the desires of the tribes. However, I do
have a few comments.
On the Comanche Nation, the preferred design for
the obverse, that's Number 3. The steel pot there
doesn't appear to have any -- excuse me, Obverse
Number 2. There is no chin strap on that steel pot.
Does the original sculpture show that?
Ms. Bidstrup:

It's around the back of the helmet

Member Jansen: From the back you can see how it
is up here.

Ms. Bidstrup: In Number 3 is he wearing it?
Member Jansen: He's wearing a strap around the
back of his helmet. He's not wearing it under his
Member Olson:
I don't even see that
anywhere addressed, even going to the back.
Member Jansen: Yes, it's not there at all.
Member Olson: That would be my only comment
there, and, Ron, what points did the Army Historical
organizations come up with on these?
Mr. Harrigal: Basically, on the Kiowa and the Tlingit
about the radio, the accuracy of the radio, the M1
Grand being a slight bit undersized, changes to the
pocket, collar, and boot, that type of thing.
Member Olson: So you'll make all those changes?
Mr. Harrigal: Yes.
Member Olson: Okay.
Mr. Harrigal: We'll need to get the right source to
make sure that we correctly model it.
Member Olson: Okay. Now, the other comment
that I had that spans all of these designs is the
interpretation of the Native language. Have we
double- and triple-checked to make sure that there
may not be other interpretations of the language
that may not be as desirable or as forthright as
what we're presented with here?
Mr. Harrigal: We're relying on the tribal nation for
that. If they tell us that's what it is, we are not
getting a second opinion on it, if that's what your
question is.
Member Olson: Okay.
Mr. Harrigal: I mean, if the tribal nation tells us
that's what it means, we're giving full confidence to

that feedback.
Member Olson: Okay. Again, so the Comanche, I
would go with the desires of the tribe. The Kiowa,
same way. On the Santee Sioux, I do agree with
Heidi that the barbed wire is an essential element of
that. It does add some interest to the design on the
obverse. That's a very well done design.
We've got -- on the reverse, I also agree with Heidi
that these Number 2 and Number 3 are very well
done. Hopefully, we'll see one or both of them
again if they're not selected here today, but I'm
going to throw my support behind Number 2 just for
the fact that it does utilize the potential on a medal
a lot better than the design that's shown on Number
On the final design, I think that just putting the
foliage in the background has somewhat of the
same effect that the barbed wire does on the
Santee. It gives a little perspective, shows you
where he's at. I don't think it detracts in any way.
It simply adds.
Those are my comments. I also do think it's very
interesting to have the United States Army Unit
patches on at least one of these designs with the
Comanche Nation, because those soldiers were
obviously proud of their heritage, but they were also
proud to be members of a unit, so it's nice to see
the patches alongside the traditional imagery on
that particular design.
That's all I've got. Very good job on these, by the
way, a lot of improvement from the last meeting.
Chairperson Marks: Thank you. Michael?
Member Bugeja: I just have a few comments. I
agree with almost everything that has been said,
but I'd like to go to Reverse Number 1 on the
Comanche Nation.
Comanches were known, of course, as the world's

best cavalry, and I think the horse is absolutely
essential to convey that. I would reduce the size of
the military patches.
I think it's too much focus on the patches, not
enough on the horse, and I would reduce them by
half, at least. I'd leave it up to the Mint to look at
that. I don't like how they go out of the field into
the lettering over the rim.
I still think that it's important to have those
patches, as Michael said. Michael Olson said, that
the tribe is proud of them, but I think it is
overpowering the Comanche heritage, personally.
The other comment that I have is on the reverse of
the Kiowa, I believe. Let's see. Maybe it's the
Santee Sioux, the eagle. Reverse Number 2 of the
Santee Sioux eagle is my favorite, and I'm going to
say why.
While Reverse Number 1 may be true to the patch,
it's not really true to Obverse Number 1. If you
take a look at the artwork between Obverse Number
1 and Reverse Number 2, there is a symmetry
On these types of medals or coins, you have an
option to be true to what a patch might be or what
a sculpture might be, or you have the freedom to
harmonize the elements, and I think Number 2 is
absolutely my favorite of the reverse designs.
I am not partial to Number 3. I think it's too busy,
way too busy, but it could okay for a medal. I'd like
to see if it's recycled to be less busy. That's all.
Chairperson Marks: Donald?
Member Scarinci: Yes, I'm going to go with all of
the recommendations with the exception of the
Santee Sioux. I really have to support Reverse 2
over the one that they recommend.
I think it's a much better -- I think it's much more

artistic. It's a much better depiction, and I think
time will prove that this is the better one, and I
think they're going to be happy with that.
I think they're going to be happier with that in the
end than with Number 1. I think Number 1 maybe
they're just too familiar with it. I think that's the
only one I really can't live with of all the
So, all of that being said, you know, what I do want
to congratulate the Mint for is I think that, you
know, by listening to us and working with us all, as
hard as this has been, and let's all acknowledge and
recognize that this was Herculean and continues to
be, because it's not over yet for some of us, and,
you know, and as hard as it was, I think you've
enhanced -I think you've really enhanced and enacted
Congress's intent, which was to honor these Indian
nations, you know, and I think by giving them this
medal you've shown them and the heroes that are
the subjects of these medals the respect that this
country feels towards them.
And I think you, by listening and by doing, you
know, by listening and taking your time and not just
dismissing us because of the manufacturing
schedule, as we were once told a long time ago -seems like another day, seems like another Mint,
another country, actually.
You know, but instead of saying that to us, you
know, you've treated us with respect, and you've
been treating us with respect, and I think --and I
think that really does not go unnoticed by a single
one of us here.
I think, you know, and I think -- and I just wanted
to -- you know, I just wanted to appreciate it. I
think the result of this process is that you've now
created a very collectible series.
I mean, when you're done and long after we're not

here anymore, none of us, and we're just custodians
and long after we're not here, you've left America
with a very collectible series of medals that will be
studied and collected for a long time into the future
and which will be tangible symbols, exactly what
Congress has intended by making the award with
legislation. So, you know, I just wanted to not let
this day pass without saying that.
Chairperson Marks: Thank you. Mike Ross?
Member Ross: Yes. I'd support all of the tribe's
recommendations. Just to be a contrarian voice on
the Santee Reverse 2, I think that eagle looks a
little cartoonish, a little like Sam the Eagle from The
Muppet Show, while the other one seems more
traditional than any of the tribal picks.
Member Stevens-Sollman: Which one seems more
Member Ross: The original one. The Reverse 1 I
like, and Reverse 2 seems a little cartoonish. Sorry.
Chairperson Marks: Is that the balance? Is that the
balance of your comments?
Member Ross: That's the balance.
Chairperson Marks: Okay.
Member Scarinci: Can I just supplement one thing?
Chairperson Marks: Yes.
Member Scarinci: Just for Don, just so you know,
you got caught. Reverse 3 is Fraser. That looks
very Fraser to me of his World War I medal done
around the time, so I will send you a picture of
Fraser's World War I medal, and whoever did that -Member Jansen: And it looks like a 1922 German
penny, as well, so we can't have that.
Mr. Harrigal: Fraser, like minds, you know, like
minds think alike.

Member Scarinci: And you know what? Fraser is -you know, we study Fraser, so, you know, just to let
you know.
Member Jansen:
need it.

I have one of the pennies if you

MR. Harrigal: I can tell you I don't know whether
that was the artist's intent.
Chairperson Marks: Okay. I want to -- I want to
entertain any follow-ups that there might be, and I
have one I want to start off with.
I've been listening very intently to all of you relative
to the Santee Sioux reverse, and I want to point
something out that in Reverse Number 1 I think a
very integral part of that image -- and look at the
patch there. Notice the arrowhead. That's the body
of the bird.
Now, we can go to -- can we go to Reverse Number
That image is there.
I'm guessing that's
important to the iconology of the Santee Sioux, and
if we go to Reverse Number 2, it vanishes. Now,
representative of the Santee Sioux, is the
arrowhead an important image?
Mr. Trudell: Yes, it is, you know, because I think
it's part of, you know, part of the design that the
people accepted as they wanted to take for the seal,
but I also wanted to say on Number 2, if you look at
the -- well, I'm sure you've got it.
Everybody calls it a peace pipe. You know, we call
it something else, but that is not a Sioux pipe,
number one. That's maybe a Mandan or somebody
It's definitely not a Sioux pipe, so, I guess, in a
sense, if you were going to go with Number 2, I
definitely want that pipe changed.
Chairperson Marks: Okay. Thank you, sir. Then,
the other item I would point out between the two

designs is the pipe. If we look at the pipe and how
it's portrayed here on Reverse Number 1 and we
look at Number 2, there's a radical change to that
I'd like to -- you know, if we're going to do
something like 2, I really think it needs to be more
in tune with the source image, and the way 2 is
right now, I think we stray too far from it.
So, I'm split here. I agree with some of you that
notwithstanding -PARTICIPANT:

I want the history of that cartoon

Chairperson Marks: There is some interest in that
for me, but I'm finding myself divided here and
troubled with the loss of some of the imagery from
1 to 2, so there's some -- if other members want to
join in or comment on what I've said here, I think I
might benefit from your thoughts.
Member Stevens-Sollman: I would like to comment
on Reverse 2. Bob and I were just speaking about
the pipe, which is not true to the Sioux pipes. We
need to make it more accurate to what was actually
used, and this one is so Europeanized in Reverse 2
that, you know, it shouldn't be.
But the eagle, the eagle in Reverse 1 has five flights
on his wing.
I think the eagle feathers are
extremely important to the tribe, and that was not
really honored in Reverse 2, where we don't know.
It's been given three flights, I think, and a series of
secondary flights. It's not right.
So, if you are going for accuracy, I think the head is
beautiful. You know, we have a nice, strong figure
there, but in terms of accuracy for what the eagle
represents to the tribes, I don't think we have it
here in Number 2.
Member Bugeja: It's not -- it's not the symbolism

of Number 2 that's preferable.
It's the art of
Number 2, and if you take the badge -First of all, if you go to Number 1, you'll see we're
really talking about a shield or an arrowhead. That
can be stylistically inserted into Number 2.
We're talking about the stylized version of the
obverse and the stylized version of the reverse. It's
not tied up in what's accurate and what's important.
What is important can be actually incorporated into
that design, and -Member Stevens-Sollman: I agree, yes.
Member Bugeja: If you take a look at that patch, I
mean, I want a -- take a look at that patch. I don't
want Reverse Number 1 to be an echo of the patch.
I want Reverse Number 2 to contain the same
elements of that patch, and I don't think it does.
Member Stevens-Sollman: I agree.
Member Bugeja:
So, but for artistic reasons
Number 1 is just attention that is going to be called
out. However, if we can be true to the patch's
symbolism and stylize it into Reverse Number 2,
you have the best of both worlds.
Chairperson Marks: Good. Okay. Erik?
Member Jansen: I would kind of agree with that
approach, and I'll say it perhaps differently, and
correct me if I didn't hear you completely. If the
design on Number 2 -- excuse me.
If the original art, the blue, yes, if that could be
picked up and made into Design Number 1, its
intention, the unpixelated and some creativity at the
sculpting level, boy, I think we have the difference
between authenticity and Europeanized, because I
don't think that drawing has the curvaceous, dare I
use the word muscularity, that Number 2 eagle does
and that we are used to dealing with, and, you
know, I think that's the way it's supposed to be.

Chairperson Marks: Okay. If there are no other
comments on that -- Robert?
Member Hoge: In regard to the type, again, it
seems to me that the badge actually has a
misrepresented Santee pipe.
Typically, they, at least in my recollection, they
normally will look more like the image on Reverse
Number 1, in other words, the catlinite pipe bowl
quarried at Pipestone, Minnesota, which probably
was in the Santee lands at one point, although it's
not correctly drawn here.
The pipe should have a division between the
catlinite part on the left and the stem. The wooden
stem stands which extends out to the right, and
then there should be a little mouth piece.
I think if you took this pipe and modified it to make
corrections and put that on Design Number 2, it
would be an improvement to follow through on a
more accurate Santee pipe.
Member Wastweet: The question is how do we get
that to happen?
Chairperson Marks:
Well, it depends on which
design comes through in our scoring, and I would -and thank you, all.
I wanted -- when I heard us making some
comments on the design that was not the
recommendation of the tribe, I felt it was important
that we have more of a dialogue and hit the issue
I want us all to be very sober in the decisions that
we make here, and I think this helps us inform us,
so I'm going to suggest that we at this point go
ahead with our tally. Let's see where that takes us,
and wherever it takes us, we may want to visit that
with some specific recommendations on that design.
So, with that, are there any other quick follow-ups

to any of the Code Talker Medals? Heidi?
Member Wastweet: I feel like I can't accurately
give a score to this without knowing what can be
done to it, because I have a strong preference for
Number 2, but I agree with the comments about
accuracy and the symbolism, so I'm having trouble
choosing what to score them and then just, you
know, hoping we talk about it later.
Chairperson Marks: Should we ask Don?
Member Wastweet: I think we should ask the staff.
Chairperson Marks:
that's you, but --

Staff, I don't know, Don, if

Member Wastweet: Ron or Don.
Chairperson Marks: We need some help here. If
we go with 2, what's the likelihood that some other
recommendations that we -- this is getting -Member Wastweet: Can we make motions later to
add the arrow and -Chairperson Marks: We can certainly do that.
Member Wastweet: Is that -Chairperson Marks: That was my suggestion.
Member Wastweet: Is that acceptable to the staff?
Mr. Everhart: Is it acceptable to the tribes?
Member Wastweet: That's the question.
that's the biggest question.

I think

Mr. Harrigal: To answer your question, clearly, yes,
you can make the recommendation.
recommendations then will be reviewed by the
tribes and the nations and decide whether they
think it's a good idea or not.
You know, just as, just as another offering here,
you know, we have not gone to the National

Museum of the American Indian for checking for
accuracy on some of these things. We can still do
that. We can do things for historical accuracy after
the reviews just to assure that we get the right
depiction of the pipe.
The question then becomes how much from the
original artwork do we put realization or, you know,
the anatomy of the bird, do we want to correct it?
Like we were talking about the horse, do we want to
correct that when we go to the actual sculpt, or do
we stay with what the tribal seal, the tribal logo is?
That will be a question that we can pose to the
tribal nations and go based on their advice, but
clearly make the recommendations that the
Committee feels strongest about, and we will take
that under advisement.
Member Wastweet:
Thank you.


I'm content with that.

Chairperson Marks: Okay. Have we exhausted this
issue? Okay. At this point, I'm going to ask us all
to tally our scores. If you'll pass those Erik's way,
Erik will tally those for us, and when he has some
numbers for us, I trust that he'll pass those over my
At this point, we are scheduled for a break. Right
now, we're about 15 minutes behind our intended
schedule. Do we want the break?
Participant: I've got a plane to catch.
Participant: I do, too.
Participant: I think you should keep going.
Chairperson Marks: Okay, let me say this. If you
need to excuse yourself for any kind of a bathroom
break or something like that, feel free to do that,
but in the interest of time and those who have to
depart for catching transportation, let's keep on

That takes us down to our discussion on the 2013
First Spouse Backgrounder, and for the Code Talker
representatives who are here, we will have some
scores to report if you want to hang around for just
a few moments. I know you probably are interested
in what the outcome of that might look like.
Particularly the Santee Sioux, we may have some
more action to come on that.
Discussion of 2013 First Spouse Backgrounder
Chairperson Marks: So, at this point, who from the
staff is -- who is addressing the First Spouse? Is
there someone on staff addressing the First Spouse?
Ms. Bidstrup: Ron will be doing that, but he had to
step out for a moment.
Chairperson Marks: He took my advice. Okay.
Where does that take us to? You know, we could
have -Well, you're just getting -- if we did that, Michael,
I'd want to interrupt you to report the tally, and I
might have to interrupt you then to move into
consideration on subsequent motions. It might be
kind of awkward for you.
You know what? We're going to take about a fiveminute break. Seeing that Ron is out of the room,
we've got some dead time here, so five-minute
(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the
record at 3:05 p.m. and resumed at 3:08 p.m.)
CHAIRPERSON MARKS: I've heard from a number
of the members that there is an issue of time
because of arrangements that have already been
made with transportation. I'd like to know how
many of you are good to stay here until 4:00.
Member Stevens-Sollman: I have to leave at 4:00.
Chairperson Marks:
less than an hour.

At 4:00? Okay, so we have
How many have to leave at

4:00? Okay, that takes us right down to quorum,
and when do you have to leave?
Member Olson: No later than 4:15.
Chairperson Marks: Okay, we have just over an
hour, or we're going to lose our quorum, and it's
unfortunate that the transportation was set up that
way. It's going to cause a problem, so, Michael,
yes, I don't know what we're going to do.
Member Bugeja: Well, we've got -Chairperson Marks: I want the Committee to hear
your presentation.
Member Bugeja: I can do -- I can do this as quickly
as I can, and then if people have follow-up
questions that they can email me, I've made
handouts. I think it'll go far quicker than you're
Chairperson Marks: Okay.
Member Bugeja: I know a lot of -Chairperson Marks: I'm feeling what has to take
precedence here is the business of keeping the Mint
going with the -Member Bugeja: Go ahead.
Chairperson Marks: -- decisions they need to make.
Member Bugeja: Go ahead.
Chairperson Marks:
you too short.

I'm just hoping we don't cut

Member Bugeja: Okay.
Chairperson Marks: So, with that, Ron, we are
prepared to proceed with the First Spouse item, and
Erik is going to give me the tally when he has that
done for Code Talkers, and I'm going to interrupt
you at that point. This might be a little disjointed
but necessary. So go ahead, Ron, please.

Mr. Harrigal: Okay. Last time we met, we had put
out there some background information on the First
Spouse, and the recommendation of the Committee
was to table the discussions at that point. This,
again, is the 2013 First Spouse Backgrounder.
In lieu of going into detailed story board type
themes like we've done in the past, we're going to
more general research that we're going to give to
the artist to use as background to give them more
flexibility in coming up with more creative designs,
and that's what we're looking to do here.
So, the last meeting when we met, there wasn't
enough time to review the materials because of the
depth of information that was presented. It was
tabled until this meeting, so we're taking that same
information, and I'd like to put it up to the
Committee for their comments.
We're specifically talking about the First Spouse
Gold Coin and Medal Program for 2013. The spouses
are Ida McKinley, Edith Roosevelt, Helen Taft, Ellen
Wilson, and Edith Wilson.
So, I'll turn it over to you, Gary, and the Committee
members for comments.
Chairperson Marks: Okay. We all received those
materials. Who would like to comment?
Member Moran: I'll restrict mine to Edith Roosevelt,
because I know her well, and bottom line is I've
ended up in a position where I've drafted a position
paper, three or four paragraphs, on her myself.
Let me just say that the very first bullet point was
and remains wrong.
The West Wing was a
temporary structure added at the last minute with
very little forethought given and some caution that
anything temporary in Washington tends to become
permanent over time.
Edith Roosevelt managed the decoration, interior
decoration of the entire White House, but when you

get beyond that, I'm more concerned about the
tone of what went on with the rest of this, because
it appears that she hosted tea parties.
Edith Roosevelt was a strong personality, but,
unfortunately, because of her upbringing she felt
like she needed to put herself behind her husband
and not step out into the limelight. It was the
Nevertheless, there is plenty that she did on her
own, and I think the strongest thing she did was to
provide a national stage for the fine arts. She most
certainly did that with the redecoration of the White
House, with the coinage.
She was deeply involved with the coinage, and with
his Inaugural Medal she picked for her portrait a
Cecilia Breaux. That was not done then. She had
the best of the performing artists in for those salons
that the Roosevelts did and not just the established
ones but the ones that were up-and-coming.
This whole narrative misses that, and while I
appreciate the fact that the Mint has given us this, I
caution them about going to the internet to
download stuff, because it is not necessarily right,
and definitely the part on the West Wing was wrong
at the Miller Center.
I don't care who put it up there. It's wrong. It
can't -- what's wrong is wrong, period, and I can't
emphasize strongly enough as we go into the 20th
Century, we have got to get it right on these First
You can't not do this to Eleanor Roosevelt. I'm not
talking Edith now. I'm talking Eleanor, because
everybody knows her. It won't work.
I will close with a thought that I had. All the First
Ladies deserve a good medal, but because of the
numismatic connections of Edith Roosevelt, it
demands a good piece of work from the Mint, and it
starts right here with this narrative. I can't say it

strongly enough, and I'm going to stand my ground
on this as we go through the motion period.
Chairperson Marks:

Thank you.

Michael, Mike

Member Ross: Yes. Very quickly, I just, since I've
been on the Committee, all the narratives that I've
seen for the First Ladies seem to have come from a
very traditional view in that you are looking for the
historical record to find evocative images of First
Ladies as either hostesses or hobbyists.
In a number of cases already, if you -- if people had
investigated biographies of the First Ladies, rather
than relying on websites or perhaps outside advice
without research, would have found lots of other
stories amongst these First Ladies.
Certainly there are some that aren't as active as
others, but we've passed by some already, and as
we head into the 20th Century, to be focusing on
knitting socks and these various other things I think
will do a number of the First Ladies a disservice.
Even if, as in the case of Ellen Roosevelt, I'm sorry,
Edith Wilson, she tried to downplay the role she was
playing during her stewardship when her husband
was incapacitated.
Historians know for a fact she's extraordinarily
involved in the day-to-day runnings of the
presidency, and I think at this point, at a distance of
decades, we can now try to represent that fact as it
really was, rather than trying to, say, do it by the
quotes she gave the press at the time.
In the case of Ellen Wilson, for example, the way
the narrative reads you can get some hint that she
was into -- that she supported causes, but it doesn't
portray the intensity of it.
So the artist won't know that she is the first First
Lady whose name because widely attached with a
political bill going through Congress for slum reform

Congressional members on carriage rides of the
alleys of Washington, as they called the slums in
those days, and her name is attached to the bill.
If you read the narratives, it's a very constricted,
very traditional view, and my fear is that there's not
a tug-of-war going on, but there may be people
whose interpretation is that the role of First Lady is
hostess and hobbyist, and that's all we're searching
for in the record, even if it's not historically
So I -- both Michael and I have given all kinds of
citations to works by historians on these First Ladies
that give a much more complex depiction that I
think the artists should see, rather than relying on
very constricted interpretations that emphasize very
traditional roles for First Ladies.






Member Wastweet: I just want to say briefly if we
send the artist in the wrong direction, we're wasting
valuable time and resources that they could come
back to us knitting socks and that sort of thing, so
it's important to not only add the correct
information but subtract information that we don't
want the artist spending their time on.
Member Moran: The horse is out of the barn if you
let this thing go, because we'll get back a depiction
that reflects this, and we're stuck with it.
Member Wastweet: Right, and then we have to
send it back and say -Mr. Weinman: I'm going to ask both Mike and Mike
to, because we're on the public record here,
anything that you can read into the record with a
little more specificity.
Member Moran: I could if I remembered to print it
out or somebody else did.

Mr. Weinman: At least we can then add it to the
record, formally add it to the record. You could at
least add it to the record so we know that it was -Chairperson Marks: Add the written submission into
the record.
Ms. Bidstrup:
Just for clarification, what you
understand is that -Chairperson Marks:
done. Pardon?


Then consider that

Ms. Bidstrup: The transcript will be made available
to the artist, so they will have everything that
you're saying.
Chairperson Marks: Will we make these documents
part of the transcript?
Ms. Bidstrup: Exactly. That's what we said.
Chairperson Marks: Fabulous. Okay.
Mr. Weinman: I'd rather be more formal.
Chairperson Marks: Okay. Have you made the
comment you wanted to make? Okay. Before we
move on, and I'm sensing that we can very soon
here, I just want to take us full circle back to the
blueprint recommendations that we put forward to
the Mint about a year and a half ago that one of the
issues we addressed in the blueprint was this idea
of involving the Committee at the front end of the
process with narratives and such, rather than we're
the last car on the end of the train, if you will, and
that's where sometimes we ended up with Rex,
because we didn't have this kind of input, and so I
just wanted to bring us back, have everyone, I
hope, appreciate why it was that we asked for that
consideration in our design process. I think the
process now goes forward with these First Spouse
designs with much more value added to it.
So, with that, staff, are we looking for a formal
motion in any way or an acknowledgment at this

point that -Mr. Weinman: I'd just like an acknowledge from
the Chair on the record that you're adding the two
specific attachments.
Chairperson Marks: Okay, then I will acknowledge
that we are adding materials for Edith Kermit
Roosevelt and for -- well, I'm sorry. The other one
is for Edith Wilson.
Member Ross: Ellen and Edith.
Chairperson Marks: Pardon me?
Member Ross: Both of the Wilsons.
Chairperson Marks: Both Wilsons. Okay. Great.
Member Jansen: No surprises, except the eagle
argument preference there, and there's your
Chairperson Marks: Okay.
Member Jansen: Everything else is non -- is in toto.
Review and discuss candidate designs for the Code
Talkers Congressional Gold Medals-Continued
Chairperson Marks: The results, I will make the
scores available, but for interest of getting us
through the process here, the issue of the reverse
for the Santee Sioux, out of a possible 30, Design
Number 1 received 13, which doesn't make our
threshold, and Design Number 2 received 17, which
does make the threshold for approval.
The threshold is 16, so the Committee's
recommendation would be Reverse Design Number
2, and I believe because of that we have some
fixing to do.
Can it be as simple as a motion recommending that
the Mint design staff take a close look to
harmonizing Design Number 2 with the actual

iconology of Number 1?
Member Wastweet: I will make that motion.
Chairperson Marks: Is it that easy?
Member Wastweet: I think so.
Member Moran: I'll second it.
Chairperson Marks: Okay. I made that motion.
Member Wastweet: Okay.
Chairperson Marks: I made that motion, and Mike
seconded it?
Member Moran: Sure.
Member Wastweet: All right.
Chairperson Marks: Did you catch that, Erik?
Member Jansen: Got it.
Chairperson Marks: Okay. Is there any discussion?
All those in favor, please raise your hand. That
looks like nine.
Member Jansen: One, two, three, four, five, six,
seven, eight, nine.
Chairperson Marks: And opposed, raise your hand.
Member Stevens-Sollman: I abstain.
Chairperson Marks: One abstention.
Mark Jansen: One abstained, okay.
Chairperson Marks:
Okay, nine in favor, one
abstention. The motion passes. So, at this point
we will move on to our -Mr. Harrigal:

Gary, may I ask one point of

Chairperson Marks: Yes.

Mr. Harrigal: We are specifically speaking to adding
the arrowhead shield on the front of the -- in front
of the eagle's legs and correcting the pipe to the
more accurate, historically accurate version. Is that
specifically what we're looking at here?
Chairperson Marks:
I think those are certainly
items that need to be looked at. I don't know if
numbers of feathers need to be looked at.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay.
Chairperson Marks: It does?
Mr. Harrigal:

It does.

There's differences in the

Chairperson Marks: Yes, I would ask that the staff
take a very -- make a very close analysis of Number
1, and let's make sure that all the devices in
Number 1 translate into Number 2.
We've indicated three
with. There may not
but I don't want to
definitive. Staff might

major items for you to start
be any more. I don't know,
-- I don't want to make it
find something else.

Mr. Harrigal: Well, the one thing that would be a bit
of, I guess, not concern but a bit of question on our
point is in front of the shield is the back of a Native
American head with a feather on it. I mean, are we
actually looking to go into that kind of detail on it?
If you look at the shield -Chairperson Marks: You know, Ron, what I would
suggest is that I believe you'll have more
consultation with tribal representatives.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. That's fine, and we will do
that. I just want to make sure I understand what
the Committee is -Chairperson Marks:
those sources.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay.

I would process that through

Chairperson Marks: Yes.
Mr. Harrigal: Okay. Thank you.
Chairperson Marks: Okay. With that, let's move on
to -- I think we're ready for Michael's -Member Wastweet: Actually, I have one more.
Chairperson Marks: Okay, one more.
Member Wastweet: I make a motion to add the
word "Code Talker" to the Santee Sioux at the
discretion of the artist. Whether it be obverse or
reverse, it needs to be there.
Member Olson:
On the obverse to maintain
convention with everybody else.
Chairperson Marks: Okay. So, there's a motion to
add Code Talker to the Santee Sioux medal for to be
determined, obverse or reverse, by the staff.
Member Wastweet: Yes.
Member Olson: Second.
Chairperson Marks:
Seconded by Mike
Olson. Any discussion? All those in favor, please
raise your hand. One, two -- that's nine of us, and
we have one out of the room, 9-0. I guess we count
that as -Member Jansen: 9-0-0.
Chairperson Marks: Pardon me?
Member Jansen: 9-0-0.
Chairperson Marks: Yes, 9-0-0. Okay. Okay, with
that, if I'm not mistaken, we can move on to
Michael's presentation.

Presentation by CCAC Member Michael Bugeja on
design devices on U.S. coins
Member Bugeja: Ron, did you want to do the
PowerPoint, or did you want me to?
Mr. Harrigal: Do we have it on the computer is the
Mr. Trudell: Mr. Chair and Committee members, I
want to thank you for allowing us to be here.
Chairperson Marks: Thank you, thank you.
Michael, you are the historian on the Committee.
We're asking from a historical standpoint.
Member Ross: Yes, but this is -- it's thematic. It's
not actual is the problem.
Chairperson Marks: Okay.
Participant: Do you want to run them down real
quick, and we'll just -Member Ross:
Well, let's let Michael give his
presentation, and I'll -Member Wastweet:
Now, that part of it, the
overwrite, we don't need a quorum for that?
Mr. Weinman:
You're authorizing -- you're
authorizing Michael to make the notations on this.
Chairperson Marks:
extend his remarks.
Mr. Weinman:

We are going to revise and

And it's going to end up in the

Chairperson Marks: Into the record.
Mr. Weinman: At the end of the meeting.
Chairperson Marks: We are all acknowledging that
Mike is going to do that on our behalf.

Mr. Weinman: You are.
Chairperson Marks: Okay.
Member Wastweet: That will happen after he gives
his presentation.
Chairperson Marks: Right.
Member Wastweet:






Chairperson Marks: Okay. Michael has the floor.
Member Bugeja: Well, they were supposed to have
it loaded.
Mr. Harrigal: We are getting it loaded right now.
Member Bugeja: So, I don't know how we can
begin. I'll hand these out first. Here are some
handouts that I made. Pass these around, and I
just guess I'll go into some background in the
interest of time, but it's a visual presentation, so -Chairperson Marks: Are they downloading it now?
Member Bugeja: I brought a flash drive, because
this stuff often happens with technology, and I
asked Judy if it was going to be loaded in the
system. She said it was all loaded, but it's not on
the drive.
Chairperson Marks: From what Michael was saying,
he may have enough time before 4:00.
Member Bugeja:
It's not a particularly long
presentation, but it's visual, and as visual we're
going to get across a lot of concepts that I think
people in this room will pick up in a New Jersey
Chair Marks: Just don't race through it. I'm looking
forward to this.
Member Bugeja: Thank you. Thank you. Is it up
yet, Ron?

Mr. Harrigal: No. James will up and load it once he
puts it on the system down there.
Member Bugeja: Well, I'll tell you a little bit about
the methodology while we're doing that. This was
an eight-month study of every coin that was minted
by the U.S. Mint, including silver, commemoratives,
gold commemoratives, and modern silver and gold
I'm showing a little bit of a scoring sheet. I have
like 30 or 40 of these scoring sheets. I think you've
got some sample.
Here's a sample data sheet. You can see how I
went around coding every coin. I counted all of the
devices, and I've been through the U.S. Mint
production catalog, all variations of particular coins,
so if they changed a coin's design in the middle of
its series, that counted as a new coin.
I've been through all the coins twice in terms of
inter-coder reliability, and I think if someone else
did this study they would come up with pretty much
the same conclusions that I have come up with, so
it can be replicated. It is -- it's an academic content
analysis of U.S. coin design, and I think that there
are some things in here that I think we'll all find
some use for.
Several of these -- several of the discoveries that I
made while doing this study is turned into articles
that have appeared in Coin World, and I'd like to
give the articles in their rough form to the Mint in
case you want some deeper knowledge of this.
I'll just start and then see if we can come to the -you know, part of the design that I took a look at
were all the devices, not only in circulating and
commemorative coins, but I asked such questions
as where do the devices appear? Do the particular
devices appear on the obverse, or do they appear
on the reverse?
The devices that have been common to American

coinage are the denomination, the date, the legend,
the word "Liberty," the heraldic eagle, the olive
branch, the wreath, "In God We Trust," and "E
Pluribus Unum."
Then I had the task of counting all the devices on
the obverse and the reverse.
I left out edge
lettering, because that was beyond what I was
trying to discover in this study.
I tested for the average number of devices. Which
coins had the fewest devices? Which coins have the
most devices?
Then I noted any design
irregularities and also took into -- and also took into
account -- also took into account any kind of device
placement, any irregularities, or other features.
I used PCGS Coin Facts for all coin photos, and the
reason why I did that is because they have
marvelous expandable images, and you can see
detail down to the Nth degree.
I counted as a device any significant feature. That's
all legends, mottos, dates, denominations, symbols,
emblems, and insignia, all distinct design elements
such as ribbons, arrows, figures, weapons, laurels,
and wreaths.
If a significant device was divided into two, such as
wheat ears, that only counted as one, and I want to
explain why I only counted that device as one. I
wanted to be as conservative as I could be in the
device count, so if a coin had stars on several places
of the reverse, we only counted that as one device.
Here's an example. The Morgan dollar is actually
quite a piece of art. There is no -- the U.S. Mint has
yet to create a coin like the Morgan dollar. The
Morgan dollar is the most collected U.S. coin by
hobbyists, and I discovered things by doing this
study about the Morgan dollar that I never realized.
Here's a sample data sheet. As you can see, I'm
starting at the 1792 one-half dime that George
Washington purportedly brought his silverware to

the Mint to get the first coins, and we proceeded
from there.
Then you can see that there's the denomination, the
date, the legend, liberty, eagle, olive wreath, God
We Trust, E Pluribus Unum, and the number of
devices on the obverse and the reverse.
You can see the way the data sheet is set up that
the X means that the denomination appears on the
reverse. The date appears on the obverse. The
legend appears, and you can see on the 1956 cent
it goes to -- that's the flying eagle cent. It goes to
the obverse.
So it's a very interesting study to see what the U.S.
Mint did and why it did it. In 1859, 1860, for
instance, the Mint was working with the half-dime
and omitted the legend, so not only do we have a
so-called godless dollar, we also have a coin without
a country in 1859 and 1860.
As you continue, you can see here's a data sheet for
old commemoratives. You'll notice that the artists
in the old silver commemoratives particularly were
all over the place in where they placed things.
Here is the data sheet for new commemoratives.
When we go backwards, you can see that, and then
forwards to -- the older designers were -- they
really didn't care about where things were placed.
They had more design -- they were more concerned
about the art than they were about the mottos, and
you can see again. You can see if I had -- I made
some comments on the side like ingenious ribbon
for motto on obverse, stacked mottos, clean, or silly
eagle, and we'll get to the silly eagle.
Now, in circulating coinage on average there are 9.5
devices per coin. The obverse contains 4 to 4.5
devices, and the reverse a little bit more.
As the denomination increases, and you would
expect this, so do the count of devices, because the

larger coin is a larger canvas for the artist. The
obverse usually contains three devices, the date,
Liberty, In God We Trust, but not always. The
denomination, legend, eagle, wreath, olive branch,
E Pluribus Unum.
Coins with the fewest devices, 1956 cent and the 18
-- the 1856 cent and the 1865 nickel, and you can
see, you know, one, two, three, four, five. See how
clean that design is?
Among coins with the most devices, this is the
Kennedy half-dollar. The most devices, believe it or
not, is on the Morgan dollar, but the economy of the
devices on the Morgan dollar is truly outstanding.
You have in her hair an oak leaf symbolizing the
lumber industry. You have agriculture. I mean, it
is just full of symbols, but what I like about this, as
opposed to some of the designs we see where it's a
cacophony of symbols, the symbols not only
harmonize, they're a part of an overall design.
They don't stand out, and they're integrated within
the person's either headdress or clothing, the only
coin in the study to have every single device, and
that's pretty interesting.
It has -- it just has everything, wheat, lumber, and
cotton, eagle wings. Wreath has frames on the
reverse. Liberty, of course, is in the liberty cap. It
just has an olive and the olive branch and arrows,
just has everything.
Silver commemoratives from 1892 to 1954, on
average there were 14 devices per coin. Obverse
and reverse both averaged seven devices each.
Major devices were found on either side of the coin.
You could find the date on either side or Liberty or
an olive branch.
Modern coins adhere to
circulating coinage placement. Moving devices may

allow for more design possibilities if the Mint so
allows that.
Here's another comparison of the data sheets. I
believe the only coin that deviates from this pattern
is the first silver, new silver commemorative, and
that's the George Washington 1986 deviates from
this pattern. I don't have all my data sheets with
The old commems with the fewest devices is the
1892 Isabella quarter and the 1900 Lafayette dollar.
This dollar is one of the most coveted for hobbyists,
and it is the only real large planchet that you're
working with.
You would have a dual bus that is jugate left or
looking to the left, and then you have the horse
figure looking to the right. I love the way the
orientation of some of the older commemoratives.
I was thinking in looking at the Girl Scout obverse
and reverse, and I didn't bring it up, because it
would have been too complicated, but in older style
they would have had the faces of Obverse 6 facing
left and then the reverse facing right.
Now we have both of them facing that way, and I
said, "Well, it's a minor point. We'll just say they're
looking for the future," but typically these are very
subtle. These are very subtle devices, and how the
old artists used them were just simply amazing.
Coins with the most devices, oh, my gosh. Look at
-- look at how crowded. I know. Erik, I had the
same. You try counting that sucker. Try counting
the devices. I know. The Texas one actually has -it has the six flags in there. They just threw the
whole kitchen sink into that one.
These I found to be some of the most intriguing of
older commemoratives, and I wrote an article about
that. You can take a look at it.
I had it called "A Tale of Two Cities," because the

designs of these coins are absolutely -- the reverse
designs are absolutely stellar, except both of those
commemoratives have shady histories.
The Cincinnati one has just a vague, a vague
connection with the history of music, and the
Bridgeport, of course, has P.T. Barnum on the
obverse and it's strange to put about fooling the
American public on a coin, but there he was.
Interesting motto placement, all the mottos appear
on the obverse on the Washington Carver. This is
very important to me, this coin, because George
Washington Carver was the first African-American
student at Iowa State University and the first
professor at Iowa State University, and we actually
have an enactment of George Washington Carver
each year.
The New Rochelle coin is absolutely stunning when
you take a look at how beautiful that comes across
and how simple the design is. These are -- these
are world class artists who had to cope with the
same types of obstacles that many of our artists at
the Mint do today, but they found ways to overcome
This is what I'm hoping that this particular
presentation would do to get us to get the artists to
really overcome some of the challenges of
On average, modern commemoratives have 15
devices per coin. This compares just a little bit
more to the older ones. Many coins are unable to
tell heads from tails, and we'll take a look at that,
redundant devices on several coins, rings and dates
on Olympic issues.
For instance, there's a double motto on the
Rushmore half-dollar, other problems such as
clashing icons, but they're also beautifully balanced
designs, too, every bit of -- every one of which
could stand with anything else.

These are some coins with the fewest devices, and I
like that. There again you have a double-bust, and
that is a jugate right, and I would have them facing
the plain, but that's another issue again, but these
are fine designs, and they're quite clean.
Among coins with the most devices is the Statue of
Liberty, 24 devices, and the West Point dollar is just
full of devices. That's a very difficult coin to actually
explicate. I had to count that sucker three or four
times to get how many devices actually were there.
Sometimes I'd go to 30. Sometimes they'd be 24,
but I did manage to figure it all out.
Heads versus tails. So this is NGC continues to get
it wrong, so the only way that you know that this is
the reverse, if you know the U.S. Mint, is that the
legend is right there and E Pluribus Unum and the
denomination. Hence, that must be the reverse.
However, everybody thinks that that is the obverse,
even in Coin Facts, and Ron Guth gets that wrong.
I put the correct. Now, when you take a look at
some of them, you'll see that the obverse here is
not the figure.
So, these are things that we need to keep in mind
because of the convention. We're doing this for the
citizenry, and the citizenry has certain conventions.
It's not all art as far as citizens, and, you know, my
son asked me, "Daddy, how can you tell heads from
tails?" It turns out that that's a pretty sophisticated
I have an article on how you tell heads from tails,
but even in the Superbowl coins they have two
helmets. I mean, it's very -- it's very obvious, and
there's an important reason why we do heads from
tails, too, and that is to have some convention in
our coinage.
Now, this is not a heraldic eagle. A heraldic eagle is
something that we have up here from the U.S.
Great Seal, but this eagle is personified, and

carrying a mallet and a sculpture, I mean, those are
You know, the iconography there may be in the
Soviet Union, but, actually, I was educated in
Austria, and those symbols are Austrian symbols for
industry and agriculture, so it's very -- it's very -it's very interesting, and we have a couple of
personified eagles on some of our commemorative
Now, if you take the word "iconography" and you
put the I after the O, you have "coinography," and
coinography is what I try to look for when doing,
when interpreting or explicating design. You know,
this is Gary said, "E Pluribis Duo."
We also have "E
Pluribus Nullus," where we have no E Pluribus Unum
on it, but when you -- you've got to be really careful
when artists reprint the Great Seal, because the
Great Seal contains many of these particular
Our Olympic coins have redundancies. Over here,
for instance, you see the date is redundant. The
circles are redundant, but there is also some, you
know, also wonderfully clean, elegant designs that
just blow me away.
You know, when I listened to Heidi today talk about
a new era of American coinage, I was very excited,
because I could see us developing that consistency,
that style consistency.
Now, one of the things -- it's Microsoft telling me
some things. There is an economy in the privy that
I want to talk about, because the privy is one of
those important design elements that other mints
are using for economy, and I want to talk a little bit
about the history of it.
If you look at the -- and I had an article on the
history of the privy, but the privy usually is a mark
of your Chief Engraver or your Mint Director. The

bee, for instance, is very fit for the famous JeanClaude Gabet, and also it's used in several ways for
the economy.
Canada has done a tremendous job with privies that
celebrate occasions. They have the signs of the
zodiac, for instance.
We have used it in an
economic way in the "A More Perfect Union."
I think that's the 2009 -- is it 2009? Am I correct
on the date? I think that's the 2009 $100 coin, and
that actually is from the Philadelphia Mint.
But when you take a look at, for instance, the
recommendation that Michael Ross had about the
ASPCA or you take a look at the recommendation
that Mike Olson had about Route 66, you could
make denominations for all of those, or you could
commemorative reverse and use the privy for a -You know, I would not like to have -- I could just
see the debates here. Which is the first one on the
ASPCA? Is it the dog, or is it the cat? Is it the
hamster? I could see us arguing those things, but
what the privy does is it takes a look at the larger
commemorative occasion, and then it satisfies
people by having low mintages.
commemoratives, because if you do too great a
mintage of the same type of coin, it's expensive. If
you do series from the dime, nickel, and so forth,
it's too expensive, so I thought they did a very good
job with the privy.
Here are some conclusions. Fewer devices often
result in better designs, but if you know how to
harmonize those devices such are harmonized in the
Morgan dollar, I think that's a very important
After doing this study, I took a look at, for instance,
how the Girl Scouts had their badges and their
mottos, and you could -- and in older times what

the artists would do would be incorporate that.
They would say, "Why do we have to use that
device by itself on the reverse? Can't we put it on
the Girl Scout uniform, because there it was
integrated within an existing figure?"
Citizens must be able to tell heads from tales.
That's a basic requirement sometimes overlooked.
Without doing this study, it's hard to tell which is
the obverse and which is the reverse on certain of
our more modern coins.
The obverse design must complement the reverse
without repeating images, dates, or symbols. It
really is a three-sided easel with the edge. I didn't
get into that, but I have written about the threesided easel of a coin, and what one -The obverse does have to complement the reverse.
We talked about that at length today, and those
were some of the points that I saw in some of our
most beloved coins.
Common devices can be moved or stacked, and I
think that's very interesting. If there is no rule
about where -- you have to honor some conventions
in circulating coinage, but in commemorative
coinage I think the artist has a little bit more leeway
to experiment with those mottos, stack them, circle
them in order to get a beautiful design.
The use of the privy for the economy of design and
iconography is important, because the best coins
harmonize U.S. emblems and insignia, as in our
most beloved coins, and these are the most popular
of the older coins.
I know, talking to some of the artists at the Mint,
that they, you know, they want to break out of
being compared with the classicists, and I really
respect that, but what these artists did was
overcome the restrictions of coinage to express
artistry in new ways.

I hope that's informative. That's eight months of
study condensed into just a few minutes. If there
are any questions, I'd be happy to take them. Yes?
Ms. Bidstrup: Artist initials and Mint marks and
stuff are not considered devices, correct?
Member Bugeja: I did not -- I did not consider Mint
marks, you know, and initials in devices, because
sometimes, for instance, in the cent you would have
it. Oh, it could be even in the Indian head penny.
You have initials, and then you don't have initials,
and then you have abbreviations if they would have
really made this study a longer study, but I don't
think it would have given us any fruitful data.
Member Jansen: Two questions, privy marks. Have
we used a privy mark in this country other than that
example you gave?
Member Bugeja: I don't think we use privy marks
as a series of coins. The Canadian Mint and the
China Mint have done this to great advantage.
People end up collecting every -Member Jansen: Well, this is my next question. Do
you know the Canadian collectors market enough to
know the impact of privy marks on the Mint's
success, the collector's desire for privy marks?
Member Bugeja: I don't know the Canadian Mint
that well, but, for instance, one privy mark is a
Member Jansen: Yes.
Member Bugeja: Okay. All right. Some of the privy
marks to mark occasions, you could see that it
would never fly in Canada. The Titanic is actually
one of the most collected Canadian coins, and not
anniversary. It's a beautiful coin. The Titanic is a
privy mark.
Member Jansen: Yes.

Member Bugeja: It's beautiful.
Member Jansen:
Now, do they end up collecting
those as kind of varieties within -Member Bugeja: Yes. People collect -- people
collect privy marks, and if you actually go back to
privy marks of French coinage, you collect them for
the artist or the Mint Director, and, you know,
hallmarks are to silverware as privy marks are to
coinage, and we forgot that relationship.
By being -- you know, when we're talking about the
Canadian Mint or Chinese Mint, we're talking about
economy, but when you take a look at privy marks
with them, that was the artist's insignia. That was
the Mint Director's insignia.
You could actually tell which coins were better in
French coinage just based on looking at that privy
mark to see who designed, who was the Mint
Director, and so forth. French privy marks are
Mr. Harrigal: Michael, great presentation. I just
want to make one statement.
In today's
environment with copyright and with trademarks
and that sort of thing, we are running into
increasing difficulty on trying to incorporate those
elements in the designs.
A lot of times we'll get some fabulous designs
coming out that we frequently have to pull off the
table, because we can't get it through the recipient
organization's trademark office, and they have
Girl Scouts are very strict, and, quite frankly, one of
the designs proposed we had another version I
think would have even taken it to the next level that
we couldn't do, simply because intellectual property
is becoming more and more of an issue with these
Member Bugeja: You're talking to a man who just

paid a $250 fine for using the Iowa State logo on
one of our First Amendment t-shirts. Actually, you
should write about that. Put it in there and get me
fired, but, you know, I just told Cathy to pay it.
Just pay it. Pay the fine, but that's an example of
how litigious this whole thing has gotten when you
get fined by your own state institution for using a
logo without permission on a t-shirt that you were
selling to celebrate the First Amendment.
Mr. Harrigal: Right. Understand.
Member Bugeja: So we violate the law, and we pay
the price, but I understand what you're saying. A
good attorney, and you've got one here, anyone
who -Mr. Harrigal: We've got many.
Member Bugeja: Well, anyone who got that SaintGaudens 1933 issue, I bow down to you. I mean,
that's a good attorney or good bank of attorneys to
have one that -- are we still winning this?
Chairperson Marks: We won.
Member Bugeja: We won. Okay. All right, but
surely some of those designs do need an advocate,
an advocate that would -- an attorney advocate in
case -You know, it would be wonderful to support an
artist's vision with an attorney advocate that says,
"We can resolve this." I'd like to -- I'd like to see an
artist supported that way, but, you know, I'm not
supported that way, so remember the First
Any other questions? Actually, we should -- I'll see
if we can send you one.
Member Jansen: Michael, question. Having done
all of this, do you think this Committee should
spend more or less or status quo time on organizing
devices on the obverse or the reverse?

Member Bugeja:
Actually, what was very
fascinating to me since joining this Committee, and
I think I got appointed for doing presentations like
this, going back into history to see where we are
coming, is how we are naturally gravitating toward
this without even having gone through the study.
There is something intuitive and instinctive in this
Committee about harmonizing the obverse with the
reverse. For the very first meeting I heard Donald
talking about that. I heard Gary Marks, the Chair,
talking about that.
I think that identified something we all felt, that we
didn't understand the conventions of obverse and
reverse, but now I see us really taking the lead to
make this point clear that it tells a story. A coin is
art that you keep in your pocket that you show, just
as fashion is art that you wear.
Coinage is art that you carry with you, and it
embodies so much more than the art. The art has
to tell a story. I've done columns on storied coins.
I talked to Robert Hoge. He told me about a coin he
bought, and then he told me the story about the
coin that he wrote.
So what coins do is they tell our narrative, and one
of the things that I would love to see in our
circulating coinage is a return to the narrative
symbol of liberty and maybe take a look at do we
need some of these obverse designs.
Chairperson Marks: Yes.
Member Bugeja: I mean, I'm so tired of the nickel.
I'm so tired of the dime. I'm so tired of the cent.
I'm so tired of the quarter. It makes me angry
every time I look at that obverse. I want the 1999
Fraser obverse on there.
I think it's time that we celebrated what makes this
country so important, and when I listened to
Michael at lunch talking about his trip to Cuba, it
reminds me of the blessings that we have here and

what our coinage should tell our young people.
So I know that's controversial, but I think it's
something that we need to take a look at one day.
Thank you all very much. Thank you.
Chairperson Marks: Thank you, Michael, that was
very, very interesting. That takes us through our
agenda. At this point, our next meeting, as far as
we know it, would be Tuesday, June 26. That is yet
to be confirmed, but as we're on the record I
wanted to make that known.
Also, just before we adjourn here, I want to express
a concern that as a Committee and as staff we
worked together to develop an agenda that was
intended to take us to 5:00, and yet somehow in
the organization and the planning for this trip
members were given travel schedules that did not
accommodate that agenda. That's disturbing.
Member Moran:

Can I speak for the Mint on this

Chairperson Marks: Hold on just a minute.
Member Moran: Well, it's an issue.
Chairperson Marks: I just want to make sure going
forward -- what's done is done, but going forward I
would hope that the travel office might work more
closely with the other elements of the Mint so that
our meeting is better facilitated.
Somehow we overcame this, and that's good.
We're finishing an hour ahead of our intended
schedule, but indeed we had to.
Member Moran: Gary, I tried to book my -- I try to
point the travel office where I want to go on
airplanes, and for some reason today was a bitch to
get flight reservations on Delta. They were booked
solid this afternoon, and I think that's what they ran
up against. I was doing that the first week in April.

Chairperson Marks: Okay.
Member Moran: The problem we run into is when
we change the meeting date two and three weeks
Chairperson Marks: Okay. Well, that information
needs to be shared, because as the Chair I was
oblivious coming into this meeting that I was going
to lose my quorum a full hour ahead of what agenda
I had worked with the staff to put together.
There is a disconnect here, and I just want to get it
We're working so well on all other
fronts. Please put this in proportionality to all the
other great things going on, but having experienced
it here, I want to make sure that we improve
ourselves in that way.
So, if there is nothing else, we stand adjourned.
Thank you all for your participation.
(Whereupon, the above-entitled
adjourned at 4:00 p.m.)