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Meeting April 20, 2021 1 CCAC Videoconference Public Meeting Moderated by Mary Lannin Tuesday, April 20, 2021 12:30 p.m. Client Managed Remote - DC Microsoft Teams Washington, DC 20001 Reported by: Natalie Schmitting (by videoconference) JOB No.: 4519672 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 2 A P P E A R A N C E S List of Attendees (by videoconference): CCAC Members Mary Lannin, Chair of the CCAC Dr. Peter van Alfen Arthur "Art" Bernstein Dr. Lawrence Brown Sam Gill Dr. Dean Kotlowski Mike Moran Robin Salmon Donald Scarinci Dennis Tucker Thomas Uram United States Mint Staff April Stafford, Chief, Office of Design Management Megan Sullivan, Senior Design Specialist Boneza Hanchock, Design Manager Pam Borer, Design Manager Roger Vasquez, Design Manager Russell Evans, Design Manager www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 3 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd) Joseph "Joe" Menna, Chief Engraver Ron Harrigal, Manager, Design and Engraving Jennifer Warren, Director, Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs Liaison to the CCAC Greg Weinman, Senior Legal Counsel and Counsel to the CCAC Betty Birdsong, Deputy Director, Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs Michele Thompson, Program Manager for the American Women Quarters Program Liaisons Guy Johnson, Son of Maya Angelou Mark Roesler, Representative of the Family of Maya Angelou Rebecca Cunado, Representative of the Family of Maya Angelou www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 4 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd) Press Brandon Hall, Senior Associate Editor of Coin Update and Mint News Blog Maggie Judkins, Editor of Numismatic News Kurt Peterson, The Mish Matist [ph] Mike Unser, Founder and Editor of Coin News Media Group LLC www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 5 C O N T E N T S PAGE Mary Lannin April Stafford 6, 12 16, 41, 75 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 6 P R O C E E D I N G S CHAIRWOMAN: Should we start? It's 12:30. Where did Jennifer go? MS. WARREN: looking. All right. I'm here. I'm just I believe the only person we're missing is Tom. CHAIRWOMAN: Here he is. MS. WARREN: Oh, Tom just got on. Tom, can we hear you? So, Can you hear us? MR. URAM: MS. WARREN: -- thank you. Okay, great. And then I guess Megan will be jumping -- oh, Megan is there and Mr. -- okay. afternoon. I think we're set to go. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. MS. WARREN: -- Chairwoman. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. Good I would like to call to order this meeting of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee for Tuesday, April 20, 2021. I would like to remind each member of the committee to mute his or her phone or microphone on the WebEx program when not talking and to announce www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 7 your full name at the beginning of each time you speak. Additionally, I remind the public that this is a listening only hearing to the public. Before we begin, I want to introduce the members of the committee. Please respond "Present" when I call your name. Sam Gill. MR. GILL: CHAIRWOMAN: DR. BROWN: CHAIRWOMAN: Present. Lawrence Brown. Present. Dean Kotlowski. DR. KOTLOWSKI: CHAIRWOMAN: MR. URAM: CHAIRWOMAN: MR. MORAN: Present. Thomas Uram. Present. Michael Moran. Present. CHAIRWOMAN: Robin Salmon. MS. SALMON: Present. CHAIRWOMAN: Donald Scarinci. to say "Present." A nod doesn’t -- okay. You have Thank you. Dennis Tucker. MR. TUCKER: Present. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 8 CHAIRWOMAN: Peter van Alfen. DR. VAN ALFEN: CHAIRWOMAN: Art Bernstein. MR. BERNSTEIN: CHAIRWOMAN: Present. Present. And I'm Mary Lannin. I'm chair of the CCAC, and so we have a quorum. The agenda for today's portion of the public meeting includes the acceptance of the letters to the secretary and the approval of the minutes from our March 23rd and 24th, 2021, meeting; a review and discussion of obverse candidate designs for the American Women Quarter Dollars, which are going to be issued from 2022 to 2025 as authorized by Public Law 116–330; a review and discussion of reverse candidate designs for the 2022 Maya Angelou American Women Quarter Dollar; and, finally, a review and discussion of reverse candidate designs for the 2022 Dr. Sally Ride American Women Quarter Dollar. Before we begin our proceedings, I asked the mint liaison to the CCAC, Ms. Jennifer Warren. Do we have any members of the press on the call today, Jennifer? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 9 MS. WARREN: Yes, Chairwoman. Brandon Hall, Senior Associate Editor of Coin Update and Mint News Blog; Curt Peterson from The Mish Matist. probably pronounced that wrong. I Sorry. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. MS. WARREN: Mike Unser, the Founder and Editor of Coin News Media Group LLC; and Maggie Judkins, Editor of Numismatic News, and that is it. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Thank you so much. So for the record, I would also like to confirm that the following mint staff are on the call today. Please indicate "Present" after I have called your name. April Stafford, Chief, Office of Design Management. MS. STAFFORD: CHAIRWOMAN: Yes, here. All right. Megan Sullivan, Senior Design Specialist. MS. SULLIVAN: CHAIRWOMAN: Present. Boneza Hanchock, Design Manager. MS. HANCHOCK: Present. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 10 CHAIRWOMAN: Pam Borer, Design Manager. Present. MS. BORER: CHAIRWOMAN: Roger Vasquez, Design Manager. MR. VASQUEZ: CHAIRWOMAN: Present. Russell Evans, Design Manager. MR. EVANS: Present. CHAIRWOMAN: MR. MENNA: Joe Menna, Chief Engraver. Present. CHAIRWOMAN: Ron Harrigal, Manager, Design and Engraving. MR. HARRIGAL: CHAIRWOMAN: Present. Jennifer Warren, Director, Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs and Liaison to the CCAC. MS. WARREN: CHAIRMAN: Present. Greg Weinman, Senior Legal Counsel and Counsel to the CCAC. MR. WEINMAN: Good afternoon, Mary. Present. CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon. Betty www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 11 Birdsong, Deputy Director, Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs. MS. BIRDSONG: CHAIRMAN: Present. Michele Thompson, Program Manager for the American Women Quarters Program. MS. THOMPSON: CHAIRWOMAN: Present. All right. And, finally, the following liaisons we hope will be on the call today. Guy Johnson, who is the son of Maya Angelou, Mark Roesler, a representative of the family of Maya Angelou, and Rebecca Cunado, representative of that of the Maya Angelou. So I'd like to thank you all for joining us today. So I'd like to begin with the mint. Are there any issues that need to be addressed before we start? I'm not hearing any. Okay. The first item in our agenda is the review and the approval of the minutes and secretaries' letters from our March 23rd and 24th meeting. Does anyone have any comments? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: [Unintelligible response.] www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 12 CHAIRWOMAN: Is there a motion to approve the minutes and letters? DR. VAN ALFEN: Alfen. This is Peter van I move to approve. CHAIRWOMAN: Is there a second? MR. BERNSTEIN: CHAIRWOMAN: Art Bernstein, second. Thank you, Art. All those in favor, please signify by saying "Aye." (Whereupon, multiple unidentified participants responded affirmatively.) CHAIRWOMAN: Are there any objections to the motion? I don't hear any objections, so the minutes and the letters are approved. Okay. Before we start, I'd like to say that this is really, really an exciting series for me. I'm chair. I've been chair for the second time, and so I appreciate all of you thinking that I can do this as a good job. You know, we have a chance with the American Women Quarters Program to redress a wrong that's over 90 years old. And this has to do with the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 13 obverse. We're going to talk about all the obverses that are presented to us, because we've had artists and AIP people that have worked really, really hard on providing us with a wide variety of visions of what they think that George Washington looks like. But there's one particular one that's kind of an artist that's no longer with us, and I would like Mike to talk about Laura Gardin Fraser. MR. MORAN: Thank you, Mary. I wasn't quite prepared for that, but I certainly will. As many of you know, she was married to James Earl Fraser. Both of them were excellent sculptors in their own right. They partnered on the Oregon Trail Commemorative half dollar. In 1931, Laura participated in a competition to design a commemorative coin for the women at the Washington home place, Mount Vernon. This later became the quarter. And, again, she participated in that competition. At that point in time, none of the names of the artists were known as the designs were reviewed by the Commission on Fine Arts. They were www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 14 It was later found out that her only by numbers. obverse and reverse were the ones chosen by the Commission. However, the Secretary of the Treasury, Andrew Mellon, overrode them, and we have the quarter that we have today. In my opinion, I prefer Laura Gardin Fraser's rendition, both obverse and reverse. it's excellent. I think The one thing that struck me at the review of these designs is how beautifully it has stood the test of time. It certainly is as good today as it was in 1931. And I'll bring up one other little, small point. James Earl Fraser, after this was all said and done, the family could have been bitter about it, but they chose not to be. And there is a letter in the archives at the University of Syracuse, I believe it's there, where Fraser writes a congratulatory note to John Flanagan for his winning design on the quarter. But I think it's Laura Gardin Fraser's turn this time. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you, Mary. Thanks, Mike. All right. So now we're going to move to the consideration of all www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 15 the obverse candidate designs for the American Women Quarter Dollars Program authorized by Public Law 116-330. And April Stafford will present the portfolio designs. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. provide a little bit of background. And I'll The Circulating Collectible Coin Redesign Act of 2020 requires the Secretary of the Treasury to issue up to five quarter dollars each year emblematic of prominent American women beginning in 2022 and continuing through 2025. The women to be featured on these reverse quarter designs are selected in accordance with a selection process approved by the Secretary and in consultation with the Smithsonian Institution's American Women's History Initiative, the National Women's History Museum, and the Bipartisan Women's Caucus. The United States Mint intends to honor five women each year of the program, as authorized by the legislation. To meet its manufacturing schedule, the mint is presenting designs for two of the five 2022 honorees at this meeting and will present the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 16 remaining three at the June session. So the obverse candidate designs, I appreciate Mr. Moran sharing that background. There's a little bit of further information as required by the legislation. The design on the obverse, quote, "shall maintain a likeness of George Washington and be designed in a manner so as to distinguish it from the obverse design used during the previous quarters program," end quote. This design will be used on the obverse of all of the coins issued in the four-year series honoring significant American women. The obverse candidate designs you'll see today feature a variety of depictions of George Washington including images of Washington on horseback. As noted, Design GW-01 was originally created by prominent American sculptor, Laura Gardin Fraser, for the bicentennial of George Washington's birth in 1932. It was, indeed, recommended for the 1932 quarter by that bicentennial committee and the U.S. Commission of Fine Arts, but then Secretary Mellon selected John Flanagan's design instead. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 This Meeting April 20, 2021 17 design was ultimately placed on a noncirculating gold commemorative coin in 1999 to commemorate the 200th anniversary of Washington's death. The remaining candidate designs you'll see are all newly created for this program, and I should note that the other quarter programs that are authorized by the Circulating Collectible Coin Redesign Act also allow for a redesign of the quarter obverse. And so any feedback you can give us on these designs can also be used by mint artists so that when we come to you in the future looking at altering the obverse, we can share that feedback with them. The designs all contain the required inscriptions, "liberty," "in God we trust," and the year of issuance. Some designs contain additional inscriptions such as "valor," "honor," or "Washington." So with that, we start here with obverse Design 1, the Laura Gardin Fraser design. This was, in fact, the U.S. Commission of Fine Arts' recommendation. Design 2, 3, 7, 8, 9, 13, 14, 15, 16, and 17. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 18 Madam Chair, that concludes the obverse candidate designs. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you so much. So I'd like to ask Joe Menna and Ron Harrigal if they have anything to share with us about the obverse designs. MR. HARRIGAL: This is Ron, and I'll defer to Joe on any comments here. CHAIRWOMAN: MR. MENNA: Thank you, Ron. All right. I think the artists did a great job presenting, you know, offering a nice selection. The Gardin Fraser design appears different because it's a digital render, you know, so it's going to have more of an impact. But it deserves that treatment because it's such a wonderful, wonderful point, I think. committee member. I'm not trying to be a I'm just saying as a sculptor looking at this, this is just like magical. all. So that's Thank you. CHAIRWOMAN: Thanks, Joe. Okay. So we're going to begin our consideration, and I would like the members to keep their comments to five minutes or less. And please identify yourself by your www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 19 full name for Natalie so she can take appropriate notes. And so we're going to be keeping track of time, and try to wrap up your comments at the fiveminute mark. And so if any members have questions or comments on any of the discussion, please refrain from discussing it until you're recognized or at the end of the discussion on this program, and I'll ask for additional comments. All right. Robin, would you mind beginning for us? MS. SALMON: Robin Salmon. Thank you, Mary. This is Can you hear me? CHAIRWOMAN: Yes, I can. MS. SALMON: Okay. All of these designs were very interesting to go over. I thought the artists did well with something that is such a -it's a very known subject, but they also brought other aspects to their designs of George Washington. beat Laura Gardin Fraser, that's for sure. Can't I do love that, and I love the historic heritage of this particular coin, the fact that we now have an opportunity to utilize it, and the fact that it is a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 20 woman who designed this. I would also note that Designs 9 and 13 I thought were particularly well done. The addition of the words "valor" and "honor" on that particular design for No. 9 is I think an interesting one. a good likeness. It's And then No. 13, aside from not being a true portrait of him, it's an iconic image of George Washington on horseback. And I like the fact that it is not the full figure or the full horse. And I thought the artist did a very nice, clean design with this. Thank you very much. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you so much, Robin. I would next like to call on Dr. Lawrence Brown. DR. BROWN: you so much. Good afternoon, and thank This is Lawrence Brown, and I am really pleased to be able to speak on this design. And I'm pleased with, really, Madame Chair -- I'm going to focus on Design 1 because of the comments that we've heard earlier, and I think because of historic significance that this would be a coin that would cause many of the public to take a second look. second look would be enough to ask questions. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 That Posing Meeting April 20, 2021 21 those questions and answering them gives an opportunity to tell history. And the only thing that would have made this even more relevant is the fact, had it occurred in the month of March. As we know, that's National Women's History Month. And, again, I agree with Robin about the artists' renditions that they provided. fantastic. history. This was But I think it's kind of difficult to beat And given the fact that this design was so fantastic in itself that it was repeated on the commemorative gold coin, it just speaks to the fact about its relevance, its artistic portion of it. So, Madame Chair, those are my comments. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you, Dr. Brown. Donald Scarinci, please. MR. SCARINCI: Dr. Brown. So I have to agree with This happens to be a moment that I never thought I was going to have on the CCAC -- to be able to vote for Laura Gardin Fraser to finally have her design on the quarter. And this is a no-brainer, and I'm sure this is going to be the one. I'd be surprised if it isn't. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 22 I would normally call for -- I would normally just cut this off and call for a motion on this, because that's how confident I am this is going to be the winner. You know, but I think this is important, and we need to have the record for the memory of Laura Gardin Fraser and to right this -- I can't say it was a wrong, because the Flannagan design was a brilliant design, you know, and it served America well for a long, long time. This is just, you know, a really outstanding George Washington. So, obviously, you know, it's going to be a great moment to cast my vote for this. going to get all of my votes. It's But even though it's going to get all of my votes, my compliments go to the artist who are really, you know, some really fabulous designs that I would like to see in the future for other things. You know, I think there's nothing even in this portfolio that I wouldn't like to see come back to us, honestly. I think that they're all, you know, very good, very good portraits, very original, very original, very nice original works of art. I'd like to see all of it come back to us. I So would www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 23 give all of it a merit. great job on this. You know, everyone did a You know, nobody should be disappointed about coming in second place to Laura Gardin Fraser. CHAIRWOMAN: much, Donald. Okay. Thank you very Michael Moran, would you like to add anything? MR. MORAN: Only one thing, Laura. In looking at the design -CHAIRWOMAN: Laura? Mary. I don't have her talent. MR. MORAN: I think the mint mark would be more appropriate below the date rather than above the date on Design No. 1. CHAIRWOMAN: Good point. So do you have anything else to say about the -MR. MORAN: I had my shot, my two minutes of glory earlier. CHAIRWOMAN: much. Thank you. All righty. Thank you so Tom Uram, please. MR. URAM: Tom Uram here. Thanks, Madam Chairman. Yes, I would agree particularly with www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 24 Donald. It's just great to be able to, you know, recognize this. And I echo my other colleagues who have voiced the same. And can't say much more about. And she was also the first that did the Society of Medalists, just a great rendering there as far as her participation and her history throughout her career with many, many designs, and certainly this being iconic, so one that's going to get all of my attention as well. And as Donald said, I think all of the artists, there's some great things that we'd love to see back here again. In particular, I like No. 16. I liked 3 first, but that's kind of more of a stoiclooking approach. But 16, I think, is a really nice, soft George Washington that could be relative in the future, as many of these designs would be. Chair, that concludes my remarks. So, Madam Thank you. All in on 1. CHAIRWOMAN:. much, Tom. All right. Thank you so Sam Gill. MR. GILL: This is Sam Gill. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to join my colleagues and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 25 certainly select No. 1. It's such an iconic image. If I knew nothing about the history of it, it would jump right out at me today, so I'm very, very happy to support it. And I think we can all be very, very proud of this series when it starts in January. I also want to commend the artists. It was a tough assignment, and they did a very, very fine job, and there's a lot of things here, a lot of designs here that could certainly help us going forward. I particularly, as Robin, like the Washington on horseback on No. 13, and I certainly thought that No. 7, No. 8, and No. 9 were very, very strong likenesses. But they're all very, very good, and so I commend the artists, and we're really happy that we can do this today. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you, Mary. Thank you very much, Sam. Dennis Tucker. MR. TUCKER: This is Dennis Tucker. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll mention briefly a couple other designs other than No. 1 that stood out to me. No. 2, to my eye, was reminiscent of the Lafayette Silver Dollar of 1900, and that caught my attention. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 26 No. 13 has well-balanced inscriptions and an unusual view of George Washington. and 13. I liked both of those, 2 Seventeen was a bit Napoleonic for my taste, but I do like the fact that it's an innovative view other than a standard profile portrait. So moving on to No. 1, I would say that Secretary Mellon had every right to choose Flanagan's design. That's how the process works. The Secretary of the Treasury gets to receive recommendations and then make the decision. And his successor, Ogden Mills, had every right to uphold that. But Fraser's design was clearly the better portrait. It's more closely attuned to Houdon's classic bust of Washington, and I think it's time for her coin to circulate day to day in American commerce. The quarter dollar is our workhorse coin. They're minted in the billions, and this wonderful design will be seen and it will be talked about if we make our recommendation and if the secretary chooses it as well. Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRWOMAN: Thanks so much, Dennis. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 27 Dr. Dean Kotlowski. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Kotlowski. This is Dr. Dean I could almost envision an end of a nightly news segment that begins with the words, "Justice for an American sculptor after 90 years when we return." And I think this would be wonderful publicity for the mint and the coin and getting people thinking about coinage. George Washington, for historians at least, is famously difficult to capture in all of his dimensions. Joseph Ellis called him "the man in the moon," old, somewhat remote. Marcus Cunliffe in a book that maybe some people have read in undergraduate days wrote George Washington: Man and Monument. Where's the man and where's the monument, and where do the two meet?" Conliffe said basically the man built his own monument, and the two almost merged. And when I look at Laura Gardin Fraser's portrait, if we can zoom in on that, what she has done -- I like Tom's point about another design looking too stoic with the mount. She's able to create a sense of his seriousness of purpose. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 The Meeting April 20, 2021 28 cheek muscles, you see the strength, the strength of character. The looking ahead, straight ahead, the sense of vision. All of these come together with a sense of statesmanship and a commanding presence that she is able to achieve with remarkable ease. actually like the Flanagan design. And I Obviously, this one, I think, is better, but I still like the Flanagan design as well. And I just think it's absolutely magnificent and breathtaking and has my fullest support. I want to say a few things about some of the other designs, because, again, I think the whole portfolio that we're looking at today is just magnificent, and the rich variety that we have. I liked number -- you know the one that I was drawn to because it was so different was No. 14. And maybe it doesn't look distinctively enough like the man Washington, but it looks like the monument, and it made me think about him in a somewhat different way. I also liked Nos. 7 and 8. Seven and eight gave me a view of a thoughtful and a somewhat softer Washington. And I thought that that was very, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 29 very important. And No. 16 really I thought was a good kind of classic design and something that we might want to consider in the future. I think it's also amazing here -- I'm going to say a little bit more about this little bit later. I think I have about a minute or so left. The de facto pairing of George Washington on the obverse with a prominent American woman on the reverse in terms of history and historiography, it so nicely brings traditional political history together on the one side and then newer forms of history on the other side. Women's history really emerges, starts to emerge as a major field beginning of the 1960s. And I love how that's brought together as a presidential historian who tries to bring in, you know, more social history and seeing our presidents in a different light. This de facto pairing is absolutely magnificent and inspiring. And thank you very much, Madam Chair. CHAIRWOMAN: thoughts, Dean. Thank you for your That's very wonderful. Peter van www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 30 Alfen. DR. VAN ALFEN: Chair. Thank you, Madam This is Peter van Alfen. I can only agree with my colleagues such as Donald, who have said that this really is a historic moment when we are able to vote on artwork produced by Laura Gardin Fraser, one of my favorite American sculptors. And, in fact, there was for a long time available on YouTube a video of Laura Gardin Fraser producing a medal, walking through the various steps. In fact, when the ANS, they did a version of that that they released in the 1990s, former chief engraver, Elizabeth Jones, narrated part of the video. So we'll see if we can get that posted again on YouTube before this coin comes out, which I do hope will have Fraser's obverse on it. I do have to agree with my colleagues as well that there are some really outstanding designs in this portfolio as well. I was really rather drawn to 7, 14, and 15 particularly, because there seems to be an aspect of Washington, an aspect of his personality that really comes through, which you don't www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 31 necessarily see, you know, in a straight profile view much like the Flanagan or even Fraser's, you know, wonderful portrait there. So, again, I'd like to just commend the artists on the work that they've done here, and thank you. CHAIRWOMAN: Thanks so much, Peter. Art Bernstein, please. MR. BERNSTEIN: Bernstein. Hi. This is Art I concur with my colleagues, a big supporter of Design No. 1. I heard of Ms. Stafford point out that the new obverse needs to be distinguished from the previous design, and the fact that George Washington's facing the other way I think is noteworthy and will certainly distinguish this design from the previous one. As we were asked for comments about the other designs, I like No. 17, but I would want to point out that my eye was immediately drawn to General Washington's hand. was he signaling? And I found myself wondering, what It actually looks a little like the Cub Scouts salute, and I would just suggest we should be careful in future designs as to what he's doing www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 32 with his hand. But I'm a big supporter of No. 1. Thank you. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you so much, Art. Of course, I'm coming up last, as I should be. more can we say about No. 1? What This is my design. It's going to get my vote, but I want to make some comments about the other designs that we have in front of us. I think the artists are lucky that George Washington lends himself to such iconic drawings. There's nothing that we saw in this portfolio that would lead us to believe he was anything but George Washington. No. 14, as Peter was. I was drawn to I liked No. 8. I like No. 7. And as sort of a softer version of the Father of Our Country, I liked No. 16. He looks like he's possibly dreaming of what America could be. So those are my comments. Do we have any other comments from members at this time? DR. VAN ALFEN: Madam Chair, this is Peter van Alfen. CHAIRWOMAN: Sure. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 33 DR. VAN ALFEN: This is more of a technical question for Joe or Ron. Is there a plaster of Fraser's work that exists, and would that be used to create the dyes? Or what would be the process then? CHAIRWOMAN: That's a good question. Joe? MR. MENNA: The model that you see there is very much what you probably see in the final tooling, what we would call tooling model that the coin would be generated from. And this model was put together via a combination of assets including the kind that you've discussed that we found to be the most accurate and historical and representative of what Laura Gardin Fraser's intent was artistically. So this is as close as we feel we can get to presenting her vision sculpturally without diluting it in any way. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you, Joe. MR. TUCKER: Madam Chair, this is CHAIRWOMAN: -- any other questions? Dennis Tucker? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 34 MR. TUCKER: DR. BROWN: Lawrence Brown. Madam Chair? Madam Chair, this is I have a question. CHAIRWOMAN: DR. BROWN: Certainly, Dr. Brown. This is Lawrence Brown again, and probably this is for Joe and Ron as well. I was wondering if you can share with the public the nonconsecutive designations of the design. Can you share the reasons for that? MR. MENNA: This is Joe. I'm not sure I understand, Doctor. DR. BROWN: So the designs go from one -- they don't go numerically each step. It skips some numbers. So I'm wondering whether there were submissions that the mint thought were not worthy of, in fact, presenting? Is there any reason why we have nonconsecutive numbers? MS. STAFFORD: is April Stafford. I can answer that. This Yes, some designs were pulled because many of them were essentially versions of ones that were seen here, and it was very important to our team but to the chief engraver that the portfolio be www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 35 the best that it can be in order to present our best foot forward, not just for this obverse but the obverses that might be coming in future coin programs. DR. BROWN: I think that's very important for the public to be able to appreciate that. Thank you so much, April. CHARWOMAN: you, April. Thank you, Lawrence. Thank Any further questions? MR. TUCKER: Madam Chair, this is Dennis Tucker. CHAIRWOMAN: Yes, Dennis? MR. TUCKER: I'd like to express my agreement with Mike Moran's suggestion on moving the mint mark on Obverse 1, if Obverse 1 is our recommendation, to beneath the date rather than above the date. And I could make a motion to that effect or however you recommend we go about making that distinction. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Do you want to -MR. TUCKER: At any rate -- CHAIRWOMAN: Wait for the Chair to make www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 36 a motion. MR. WEINMAN: Madam Chair, do you want to wait until you actually see where the scoring comes out before you -CHAIRWOMAN: MR. WEINMAN: Okay. -- make a motion? It just might be easier that way, unless -CHAIRWOMAN: All right. I will be happy to wait, Dennis, and I'll get back to you. So we should have sent to us our score sheets that we need to fill out. Don't forget to fill out for all the designs, please. Artists worked really hard to present us their vision of what George Washington looks like, and we should be appreciative of that. So is now -- Greg, how long would you need to get our designs together, do you think? MR. WEINMAN: It obviously depends how quickly everybody gets the results to me, but I'd say let's give ourselves 10 minutes, and I'll let you know where we are. CHAIRWOMAN: little bit more? Okay. So how about even a How about 1:20 we come back? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Is Meeting April 20, 2021 37 that fine? MR. WEINMAN: MR. SCARINCI: Certainly. You know, Mary, so that we don't waste time, I think we can go ahead with motions. There's no mystery here. I mean Greg can tell you. MR. WEINMAN: MR. SCARINCI: Sure. Why don't we start the motions, and if it doesn't win for some fluke reason, we can just -MR. WEINMAN: Actually, one option, just so you know, you could still score it so we have feedback on the designs. But you could always make a motion right now on what the committee's recommendation is. CHAIRWOMAN: Donald? MR. MORAN: Mary, can I step in? CHAIRWOMAN: Oh, yes, Michael. Please step in. MR. MORAN: Mike Moran. I move that we accept by unanimous consent Design No. 1. I'll let Dennis make the motion on the mint mark, and I'll www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 38 second that when he makes it. MR. SCARINCI: CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you, Mike. Who wants to second this? Donald? MR. SCARINCI: Me, yes. CHAIRWOMAN: Donald. Of course. MR. TUCKER: And I would make a All right. friendly amendment on the mint mark. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. MR. SCARINCI: With the amendment. Let's do it all in one motion. MR. MORAN: All right. One other comment on the original -- the gold piece of 1999, the mint mark was below the date. CHAIRWOMAN: All right. Thank you. Thank you. So the combined motion is, Mike, and seconded by Donald, that we take the Laura Gardin Fraser original design and make it unanimous, and it includes Dennis' friendly amendment that we move the mint mark to below the date of 2022. All in favor say "Aye." www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 39 (Whereupon, multiple unidentified participants responded affirmatively.) CHAIRWOMAN: Any opposed? Motion passes. MR. URAM: Madame Chairperson? Tom Uram. CHAIRWOMAN: MR. URAM: Yes, Tom. I would suggest that maybe we still send our scoring sheets in even though we're going to continue on, because it might be -CHAIRWOMAN: Greg just said. Absolutely. That's what So I'd like everybody to send their score sheets in for merit. And it is 1:09, and we will meet back still at 1"20. MR. SCARINCI: Why don't we continue on, or can't we? MR. WEINMAN: forward. That's okay. I think you can go You don't need to wait for me. If you want to move forward -MR. MORAN: We don't need to go to the bathroom. MS. WARREN: This is Jennifer. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 You Meeting April 20, 2021 40 might want to at least give a little time. we told the liaisons a little bit later. know. I believe I don't I think Maya Angelou's son, Mr. Johnson, is on, but I'm not sure if the rest of them are. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. I'd like to take -- MS. WARREN: -- might be able to tell. CHAIRWOMAN: -- a 10-minute break for people to do things. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: CHAIRWOMAN: Okay, 1:20. 1:20. (Off the record) CHAIRWOMAN: start up the meeting again. -- and I would like to Greg, is there anything that we need to know? MR. WEINMAN: in. Yes. The scoring came Not surprising, Obverse 1 received a perfect 33 out of 33 possible points and is, in fact, the highest vote getter. Obverse 2 received three points, Obverse 3 received three points, Obverse 7 received seven points, Obverse 8 received three points, Obverse 9 received four points, Obverse 13 received four points, Obverse 14 received four points, Obverse www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 41 15 received three points, Obverse 16 received four points, and Obverse 17 received two points. CHAIRWOMAN: Thirty-three. Thank you very much, Greg. We did it. Okay. So, April, are you with us? MS. STAFFORD: CHAIRWOMAN: Yes. So April is going to tell us about the reverse candidate designs for the first coin in this program, the 2022 Maya Angelou American Women Quarter Dollar. And we're honored to have Mr. Guy Johnson, Maya Angelou's son with us, and I hope that we have two other liaisons with us as well. Thank you. MS. STAFFORD: All right. Thank you. The reverse designs for this program, quote, "shall be emblematic of the accomplishments and contributions of one prominent woman of the United States and may include contributions to the United States in a wide spectrum of accomplishments and fields including but not limited to suffrage, civil rights, abolition, government, humanities, science, space, and arts, and should honor women from ethnically, racially, and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 42 geographically diverse backgrounds," end quote. The 2022 reverse designs are presented in alphabetical order by honoree name and do not necessarily reflect the order of release. Designs have all been reviewed by experts at the Smithsonian and the National Women's History Museum as well as family members or family representatives of the honorees. During the design review process, we learned that the mint's subject matter experts and the family members strongly prefer designs that incorporate the honoree's image. In this way, not only are the women's contributions highlighted, but also the women themselves. Inscriptions on the reverse designs include "United States of America," "e pluribus unum," and "twenty five cents," "quarter dollar," or the numbers "25" with the cent symbol. So we will begin first by looking at the Maya Angelou candidate designs. Some background, Maya Angelou was a poet, singer, memoirist, and civil rights activist. Through her prolific writing career, she's perhaps best known by her autobiographies such www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 43 as I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings, which depicts Angelou's adolescence in which she transforms from a victim of racism into a self-possessed young woman capable of responding to prejudice. These designs were reviewed by Maya Angelou's son, Guy Johnson, and his preferences will be indicated. Experts at the Smithsonian prefer designs in which Maya Angelou herself is depicted, as her work was much more than her most famous book. As one of our stakeholders said, "Given the history of black women in portraiture, to have a coin without her image would be a misstep." We're pleased to have Maya Angelou's son, Guy Johnson, on the call. Would Mr. Johnson or one of his representatives like to say a few words to the committee? MR. JOHNSON: Yes. And, by the way, hello and good afternoon to you. First off, the family is extremely honored by this opportunity, and we are grateful that you have selected Maya Angelou for consideration. There were several designs that I www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 44 looked at, and one of the things -- my mother was a dancer. And I don't believe you can find a picture where she is not in line. Her whole form, everything about her was -- she had a stage presence, and that stage presence was evident every time her picture was taken. And so the design that I like best, I can't see it here, but it was the one where -- it was an image with the outstretched arms. there. That one right I thought that represented her better than the other ones. And I say that because I thought the other ones -- and I was appreciative of the artists attempting to portray her, but they didn't know her. And so some of these images of her were a little stodgy, and this one reflects more the fact that she was a dancer as well as an activist as well as a poet, a film director. You know, she was so many things. Larger than life, actually, and so this is a wonderful portrayal of her. Although it may not look exactly like her, it looks like a stance that she would have taken as a young woman. CHAIRWOMAN: MR. JOHNSON: Thank you so much. Yeah. It sounded like www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 45 perhaps that was a non-sequitur and no one felt there was anything to say after. CHAIRWOMAN: April, do you want to continue? MS. STAFFORD: Yes, ma'am. Thank you so much, Mr. Johnson. MR. JOHNSON: MS. STAFFORD: start with Design 1. Thank you. All right. So we'll This depicts a visual interpretation of Maya Angelou's I know Why the Caged Bird Sings along with the additional inscription, "Maya Angelou." Design 2 depicts Maya Angelou with arms uplifted. Behind her are a bird in flight and the rising sun, images inspired by her poetry and symbolic of the way she lived. "Maya Angelou." The additional inscription is This, again, is the preferred design of Mr. Johnson, and it aligns with the feedback on preferences provided by the Smithsonian. It is also the recommendation of the U.S. Commission of Fine Arts, who suggested that the mint consider including small revisions including perhaps tapering the beak of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 46 the bird depicted here to indicate more strongly that this is a songbird, and perhaps as much as the composition would allow, enlarging her slightly but not too much so that that beautiful position of her arms and that composition is negatively impacted. So that could be something that we hear from the CCAC if you would be willing to comment on that. Moving on to Design 3, this depicts a bird that has just flown out of a birdcage, inspired by I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings. This is the second preferred design of Mr. Johnson. Design 4 depicts Maya Angelou with a birdcage in one hand and a bird perched on the other, representative of her book, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings. Design 5 depicts a dove of peace landing on an open book. Design 6 depicts a stylized ink quill as a bird with an ink bottle in the background, representing Maya Angelou's writing. The additional inscription is "Maya Angelou." And, finally, candidate Design 7 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 47 depicts an origami bird against the stylized birdcage, representing her book, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings. The additional inscription is "Maya Angelou." Madam Chair? CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you so much, April. Do Ron or Joe have anything to say about these designs in terms of striking? MR. HARRIGAL: This is Ron. Joe, do you have any concerns or any comments you would like to make? MR. MENNA: Just if as per the CFA's request that the figure be upsized, I think would be -- if we want to keep her arms in that gesture, I think that her left hand would have to be placed dangerously close to the border. CHAIRWOMAN: That's all. Thanks, Joe. All right. So I'm going to go to our members now, and I would ask them to please keep everything to five minutes or less. So let me begin with Dean Kotlowski, please. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Chairperson. Thank you, Madam This is Dean Kotlowski. Mr. Johnson, it's wonderful to have you with us today and to be www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 48 able to honor your mother. exciting. This is extraordinarily I am so grateful for your comments. I was immediately drawn to No. 2. suggests an energy, optimism. It I was drawn to the rays of the sun, and that put me in the mind of the Walking Liberty half dollar, which is such a beautiful design. It's come back in various forms, and I think that this is very much in that tradition. I am an occasional coin collector and a diligent stamp collector, and I think this design would work nicely as a marketing tool with the postage stamp that shows a portrait of Maya Angelou and a quotation. We could somehow pair them and market that in some way. I think it would be absolutely wonderful. I want to give a shout-out to some other designs here that -- I thought that these designs were just fantastic. And there were three others that really stood out to me. was terribly clever. No. 2. I thought No. 1 Again, my full support is for I think the portrait is very important going forward. But let's go back to No. 1, the caged bird www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 49 apparently singing her name, really, really well done, in my view. And the other two designs I liked, I like No. 6. I thought No. 6, to use the word again "clever" here, this was really well done. I never would have thought to do something like this, to emphasize writing with an ink pen, and to make that figure a bird the way it is. And I actually like No. 7. I think it's wonderful. Very stylized. Who doesn't like an origami bird and a stylized cage? like this a lot. I I wonder whether the general public would sort of get this when they first see it. But it's something that I think that we should consider. And, you know, Madam Chairperson, I just want to take another minute here and talk a little bit about the historical significance of what we're doing this quarter design. And I looked at past quarters and the de facto pairing here. I think that this is an important moment with this particular coin for reflection, commentary, and conversation in the best sense of all of these words, because you have an American founding father, who among his many aspects www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 50 of his life, he was a slaveholder. And you have on the reverse an African-American woman who wrote about, and you're seeing this very energetically, about freedom. And I think that that is an exceptionally, you know, poignant moment. I'm going to mention this a little bit when we talk about Sally Ride. He's also been de facto paired in the state quarters with Helen Keller and with Duke Ellington and with Frederick Douglass in the national parks. But the pairing with Maya Angelou, an African-American woman, I think is very special. Thank you very much. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you so much, Dean. Michael Moran, please. MR. MORAN: Thank you, Mary. I've learned a couple things just from listening so far today. I came into this process on the backs of these quarters, thinking that it should be more the accomplishment rather than the individual. I think I've been disavowed of that thought. I also felt like that while we pay attention to the sponsors for gold medals, that www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 51 certainly quarters need to be really defined by their art. And, again, I thought Mr. Johnson's arguments for No. 2, which happened to be my choice to begin with, although I had some reservations, really sealed the deal for me. And I will pay attention to those going forward. In terms of No. 2 and enlarging the figure, I really think that you are playing with fire there, because I think you run the risk of destroying the integrity of the design. Joe brought it out in terms of some of the practicalities there. I don't think you can enlarge it enough to accomplish whatever it was that the Commission on Fine Arts was looking for when they suggested that the figure be enlarged. I do get it about the beak. That's a minor thing. But the design is excellent. I would also like to praise Design No. 6. It also was my choice in going forward in this portfolio because of the unique representations here. That's creative. encourage that. It's good, and we always want to But, again, as I said, I'm convinced that we need to portray the people involved along with www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 52 their achievements, and this doesn't quite fill the bill. No. 7 deserves one comment. I think it is good in terms of the design, but when you think about putting it on quarter and realizing that you need to have some negative space to emphasize the simple design theme, it does not work on a coin. And, finally, I noticed the 25 cents versus the quarter dollar. space. You're not saving any If anything, you're taking up space converting the 25 cents. I'm with, I believe it was Dennis who brought this up earlier in the administrative session. I'm a purist about this. It's quarter. Leave it alone. CHAIRWOMAN: Chair. It's a quarter dollar. Thank you, Madam All right, Michael. Peter van Alfen. DR. VAN ALFEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. I really do like No. 2, and I have to say that this will be certainly getting my vote. one of And the things that really struck me about this design is that I have been hard pressed trying to find this ancient coin. gesture on any other modern or As far www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 53 as I can tell, this gesture of Maya with her arms outspread in this fashion, I mean it could well be unique, which really would be, you know, rather a wonderful thing, you know, for this coin. I also have to agree with Dean, that I think that No. 1 and No. 6 are very clever designs, and both of those really caught my eye. The concern that I have about No. 6, though, whether or not on a quarter, on a smaller scale, the image of the bird as the tip of the pen there would be lost. You know, when it's enlarged, it obviously comes through and is very clever and really eye-catching. But, you know, again, I'm just a little concerned that if this were to be struck, you know, whether or not that detail would be lost. But overall I really have to say this is a wonderful portfolio, some really great designs. And I really appreciate Mr. Johnson's comments as well, you know, the insight about his mother being a dancer, which really lends, again, you know, to the selection for myself for No. 2. I think, you know, that aspect of Ms. Angelou is really wonderful, so www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 54 thank you. CHAIRWOMAN: Peter. Thank you very much, Tom Uram, please. MR. URAM: Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, these are really nice, and I would agree with several of the comments already made. I'm certainly going to -- Mr. Johnson, thank you for your thoughts and giving us some insight regarding your mother. That's very helpful. And the fact that she liked to dance, I think in No. 2, I agree with what has been said. And I certainly agree that I would not enlarge it at all. I think the youthfulness, the flow, the way the eyes are looking upward at the rising sun, I don't think I would mess with it other than as was mentioned, some technical things regarding the bird's beak and so forth and maybe a little stylization there. But I don't think that I would touch her image at all. I would agree. And going on to another design -- No. 2 is going to get all my votes, but another design is No. 6. And I gravitated to that simply because I'm a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 55 calligrapher and I do calligraphy. know, drew me in very quickly. And that nib, you Nibs are interchangeable depending on size and so forth. congratulations to the artist on this. But I think that this was mentioned, and Dean mentioned and Dr. van Alfen mentioned that it's just stylistic. just something we haven't seen. I mean it's And I certainly appreciate it from my side of the house and doing the calligraphy. So congratulations, and, Mr. Johnson, I think you're certainly going to be proud of this great recognition. Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRWOMAN: Salmon, please. Thank you, Tom. Robin Robin, are you with us? MS. SALMON: Sorry. CHAIRWOMAN: Yes. MS. SALMON: Okay. Can you hear me now? Salmon. Now we can hear you. This is Robin No. 2 was my first choice. I liked it for all of the reasons that everyone has given. In addition to what I think of when -- the image that I think of with Maya Angelou is a regal, larger-than- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 56 life image, and that's what comes across to me in this particular design. I would agree about softening the beak, but I would not change anything else in this particular design, whether enlarging the figure or not. There were several really inventive designs here, and I was also attracted to No. 6. I think it was so creative, and it's something that could perhaps be thought about in another context for another coin design or even medal design, or certainly this artist could be thought about for more designs, because it's really different from any of the other things that we've seen previously. And I also like No. 7. I agree with Mike about the background not doing justice to the origami bird, that it needs to really be showcased as the main imagery there on the coin, but I think it's beautiful. And I agree with everyone about retaining quarter dollar. uphold, We have a legacy to and this is very important. Madam Chair. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you, Thank you so much, Robin. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 57 Next, I would like to hear from Sam Gill, please. MR. GILL: Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, I'd like to thank Mr. Johnson, because he gave us some insight into his mother that we otherwise would not have had. And No. 2 was my choice anyway, but having his description of her, and it seems like this design captures her essence. And whether or not you tinker with the bird's beak, that's fine, but I think it's going to make a really, really pretty coin, really pretty coin. And I'm very, very happy to support it. I agree with the other comments about No. 6. It's just very, very creative. as well. I liked No. 1 I thought that was very interesting, the Maya Angelou coming out of the bird's mouth. And I give credit to all the designs, but No. 2 is certainly going to get all my vote. Thank you very much. CHAIRWOMAN: Sam. Thank you so very much, Dennis Tucker, please. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. And, Mr. Johnson, thank you so much for sharing your www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 58 thoughts and your insight on your mother. I am a writer and a book publisher, so that's where I'm coming from when I review these designs for her work. And I apologize in advance. I think some of my observations are focused a bit more on some of the darker themes in her work. I allowed two have Maya Angelou's creative works and one of her artistic inspirations to guide and inform my review of this portfolio. Angelou published her poem Caged Bird in 1983, about 15 years after her autobiography, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings. disturbing poem. And this is a It's beautifully and masterfully written, but it's painful to read or hear read out loud. She describes the stark difference between a free bird that's careless and powerful and a caged bird that's wounded and angry. She says, "But a caged bird stands on the grave of dreams, his shadow shouts on a nightmare scream. His wings are clipped and his feet are tied, so he opens his throat to sing." And I think it's important to note that her earlier 1969 autobiography wasn't titled simply www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 59 Why the Caged Bird Sings or The Caged Bird Sings. title is I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings. Its I think that's important, because Angelou's knowledge, her knowing comes from her suffering, which is just like the bird's suffering. And, Mr. Johnson, you're probably used to people analyzing your mother's work, but I have to come to this from my own perspective, of course. knowledge is personal. It's painful. Her In her poem, the free bird has no knowledge of slavery or limitations symbolized by the cage. us that the free bird sings. She never tells It's too busy soaring. It's thinking of the fat earthworms it will eat, and it's claiming the sky. Meanwhile, the caged bird sings its pain. I understand that Angelou's metaphor was inspired by Paul Laurence Dunbar's 1899 poem, Sympathy. Dunbar wrote, "I know why the caged bird sings, ah me. When his wing is bruised and his bosom sore, when he beats his bars and he would be free. is not a carol of joy or glee, but a prayer that he sends from his heart's deep core, but a plea, that www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 It Meeting April 20, 2021 60 upward to heavens he flings. I know why the caged bird sings." So to me, the designs that are too, for lack of a better word, happy and hopeful -- I don't know how to put this, but they appear to me to be sugarcoated. And I think that the metaphor of the caged bird is confused by showing an image of a free bird. Then the message is lost. It misses the point. If we're going to use caged bird metaphor, we have to show a caged bird, or the metaphor loses its power. CHAIRWOMAN: Dennis, you've got about a MR. TUCKER: Thank you. minute. Madame Chair. Thank you, The caged bird does sing, and Angelou calls it "a fearful trill." The bird is angry and crippled, and its song is loud enough to be heard far away. The bird in her verse one is singing Maya Angelou's name. As a professional artist, this was a name that she chose for herself. chose Angelou. She chose Maya. She Her autobiographical work is about claiming your own identity, so the imagery of the bird singing her name is brilliantly appropriate for this www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 61 coin, in my opinion. No. 1. My strongest vote will go for I understand, though, what you're saying about No. 2, and I think it's a lovely design as well. Thank you for your time. CHAIRWOMAN: much, Dennis. Thank you. Thank you so Lawrence Brown, please. MS. STAFFORD: CHAIRWOMAN: Madam Chair? Yes? MS. STAFFORD: I'm so sorry to interrupt. CHAIRWOMAN: MS. STAFFORD: Mr. Johnson's hand up. That's okay. I thought I saw I didn't know if he wanted to share something else. CHAIRWOMAN: Oh, thank you for telling me that, because all I can see is just a line of people across the top, and I don't see Mr. Johnson. Mr. Johnson, would you like to say something else? MR. JOHNSON: Yes. First off, I really appreciated the comments of the previous person who just spoke. It is true that my mother's work reflected some of the darker elements of being human. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 62 But the truth is, her whole perspective was hope. Her whole perspective about how we should address ourselves to the difficulties that this nation faces is with hope. And she felt we were all children of God and that we could all be reclaimed and saved. So I think -- well, I appreciate -- and let me say, first off, I would like whoever can convey my gratitude for what these artists have done. I have to say I didn't understand the last one about the origami plane, but the other ones, I really appreciated. But I think No. 2 reflects my mother's spirit more than anything else. And Caged Bird, true, was her great book, but that is only one segment of her life. life was about activism and about creativity. Her And all of that initiated from the belief that there was hope for every challenge that we meet. CHAIRWOMAN: Mr. Johnson. Thank you so much, And I would like to go back to a question you made earlier when you spoke. You said that you liked No. 2 very much, but you didn't think that it really kind of looked like your mother. you like to enlarge on that comment at all? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Would Meeting April 20, 2021 63 MR. JOHNSON: Well, I just thought it was a close resemblance, but it didn't really capture her facial features. important, I think. But that's not what's so This is metaphorically put here. CHAIRWOMAN: MR. JOHNSON: All right. And so I don't think it needs to capture exactly, but people will understand when they see this that this is Maya Angelou and this is her approach to life, with the upward hand toward the sky, because she believed in God, and she felt that -CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. It's such a welcoming gesture. MR. JOHNSON: CHAIRWOMAN: Yes. May I ask if you would be comfortable with -- it seems that we are all in agreement with you. There are other members that, of course, have yet to speak, but would you be comfortable if we made a general motion at the end of our discussion that your mother's face can be adjusted slightly so that it looks more like your mother, or are you okay with what we have right now? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 64 MR. JOHNSON: I'm okay. I think it's metaphorical. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. MR. JOHNSON: CHAIRWOMAN: And I am grateful for it. Okay. MR. JOHNSON: All right. I think this represents her attitude more than anything else, and I think that's -CHAIRWOMAN: Right. MR. JOHNSON: reflect her actual face. -- more important than it Thank you. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Thank you so much for giving us that extra insight. All right. Dr. Lawrence Brown? Is that where I left off? DR. BROWN: Lawrence Brown. Good afternoon. And, Mr. Johnson, This is I'd like to also offer my thanks for the fact that you are here to share with us your thoughts. I'm a coin collector. represent the interest of the public. I'm called to My colleagues are sculptors and engravers and have a lot more www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 65 artistic background in their training. I'm here from the standpoint of saying that how will this land in those who are going to have it in their pocket as a way of, in fact, spending for some commodities. And I must say that my colleague, Dean, his comments that he made with respect to the significance of having an obverse, in fact, designed by a woman and having a reverse that has such a fantastic person that made American history known quite well from a distance immediately. You shared with us a lot that many of us have come to appreciate in this short period of time that you have been able to grace us with your presence, and I'm fully appreciative of that. As my colleagues, I also agree that these are wonderful designs. No. 7. I'm not so sure about It may be a bit too subtle for the public to be able to appreciate what that means. I don't think that the public will have any difficulty in appreciation Design No. 2. And I think that the way it is presented and publicized by the mint will go a long way, and in that respect, I'm hoping the mint www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 66 will, in fact, have a cultivation of other relationships to continue to not only this design but all the designs in the series. It seems to me that this has provided us an opportunity to think about one of your mother's quotes that I have come to learn and really appreciate. And that quote says, "I've learned that people will forget what you have said. forget what you did. People will But people will never forget how you made them feel." Sir, you made us feel wonderful, and this design only takes it home. Chair. Thank you, Madam Lawrence Brown, signing off. CHAIRWOMAN: Scarinci, please. That's great. Donald Donald? MR. SCARINCI: So I think, first of all, you know, Dennis, you always blow me away with your analysis and the depth of your commentary. absolutely blew me away just now. You You know, you're so right, you know, but I think that Design 2 -- I think in the end, we really -- you know, with this series, and I'll say this -- in this series, you know, we www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 67 really, you know, need to have some unifying theme to it; right? This is the beginning of a series. And I think, you know, having the image of a person on the reverse in some way creatively depicted is the unifying theme, you know. You know, and I'm an advocate, I'm always an advocate of -- and I don't want to confuse the artists, so I am definitely going to be giving a merit award to No. 1, to No. 6, and to No. 7. Those are absolutely brilliant designs, and in any other series or any other context I'd be talking about those. Just to be consistent to the artist, though, you know, I think we are all schizophrenic; right? But I think with this particular series, you know, as we go through this in the states, you know, what we're going to want to do is come up with images of the person in some way creatively. may not be a realistic image. Could be. And it may or Doesn't have to be. But I think an image of the person or some depiction of the person. But, you know, I think that would unify the series in this case. You know, and so while No. 2, and where www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 68 Dennis was going with No. 2, is spot on. it. I just loved You know, but I think the license, the creative license for No. 2, you know, because what Dennis was saying, you know, much more scholarly than the mass audience would really I think absorb or understand. And I think the depiction in No. 2 and I think the design in No. 2 is just delightful. And I think we just, you know, call it a day on artistic license for No. 2. You know, it's certainly a more sure design than No. 4, and I think those are the two that I'm choosing. So it's No. 2 and No. 4. And so No. 2 is the one to go with, you know, with honorable mention for the other. And I think I'll be looking for images of the people in future designs, and probably I'll be discounting what I would normally go after, you know, which is the abstraction and things that create emotion and images that create emotion. And I normally look for that -- for that in this particular sense. That's it. I'm done. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you, Donald. Bernstein, please. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Art Meeting April 20, 2021 69 MR. BERNSTEIN: This is Art Bernstein. My first knowledge of Maya Angelou is when she spoke at President Clinton's inauguration. And my first pass in looking at the designs, I was attracted to Design No. 4, because that was how I remembered her appearing. That looked like Maya Angelou to me. But I have to say that after hearing Mr. Johnson speak, I give so much weight to his comments that I'll be voting for Design No. 2. CHAIRWOMAN: much, Art. All right. I guess it's down to me. really practical here. Thank you so I'm going to be I'm going to give my vote obviously to No. 2, because I think it's really, really beautiful. Again, I want to give merits to what my colleagues have mentioned, No. 1 and No. 6, because I find those designs interesting. But as the person who gets to respond to all the letters in the CCAC mailbox when people want to complain about something, I just want to ask a question about No. 2, and tell me if it bothers you or if I'm the only person to think about it. Angelou is in a dress. Maya Should there be straps on this www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 70 dress to prevent somebody saying, "There she was, wrapped in a towel"? It's just a question. design is beautiful as it is. I think the I'm just anticipating some negative feedback about that, and I wanted to know what my colleagues and Mr. Johnson had to say about that. MR. JOHNSON: CHAIRWOMAN: May I respond? Sure, Mr. Johnson, please. It's your mother. MR. JOHNSON: I have to tell you, I've never seen my mother wrapped in a towel. CHAIRWOMAN: MR. JOHNSON: Okay. But I have seen her in a number of strapless, long gowns -CHAIRWOMAN: MR. JOHNSON: CHAIRWOMAN: all I wanted to know. Okay. You got it, then. -- like this. Okay. All right. That's So I'd like to ask the mint or Joe or Ron and April and everybody else, is there any other comments or discussions that we need to have about the reverse for Maya Angelou? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 71 Mr. Johnson, thank you so much for being here. This is great. MR. JOHNSON: honor. Thank you so much for the I am very grateful, and I appreciated what all of the committee members said. giving this consideration. And thank you for I really appreciate it. And I'm sure that her descendants will appreciate it as well. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. All right. So no comments from anybody at the mint? MR. HARRIGAL: Mary, this is Ron, Ron Harrigal. CHAIRWOMAN: MR. HARRIGAL: Hi, Ron. Hi. Now, we talked about the resemblance of Maya on the reverse there. That coin is less than an inch across. And, you know, when you get down to scale on that, it's going to be tough to pull off any kind of details other than maybe some hair details and some outline of the face. So I would not be too concerned about the resemblance of the drawing. It's going to be more symbolic when you actually get down -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 72 All right. CHAIRWOMAN: MR. HARRIGAL: -- to coin size. That's all. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. I was just trying to adjust what Mr. Johnson had mentioned when he was first introduced to us. But thank you for clarifying that. All right, committee members. E-mail or text or use whatever app of your choice to send the scores to Greg Weinman. It is now 2:02. Greg, how long do you think it'll take you to do this? MR. WEINMAN: I think I need 15 minutes if everybody is efficient. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. So it will be 2:18. I look forward to seeing you back. (Off the record) CHAIRWOMAN: -- and would you please read out the scores? MR. WEINMAN: Yes. Okay. Design No. 1 received 13 out of a possible 33 points. Design No. 2 received 30 out of a possible 33 points and is the highest-scoring design. Design No. 3 received 3, 4 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 73 received 6, Design 5 received 3 points, Design 6 received 14 points, and Design 7 received 6 points. CHAIRWOMAN: very, very much. motion? All right. Thank you So did somebody want to make a Lawrence, was that you? DR. BROWN: Lawrence Brown. Yes, ma'am. This is Even though it may not be necessary, I think it's particularly symbolic that if we can have a motion to unanimously select Design No. 2 for the reverse of the first American Women's Quarter Design Quarter Series. MR. TUCKER: This is Dennis. CHAIRWOMAN: All in favor of I would second that. Dr. Brown's motion, say "Aye." (Whereupon, multiple unidentified participants responded affirmatively.) CHAIRWOMAN: passes. Any opposed? Motion Very good. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Thank you. All right. Well, thank you very much for everybody that attended on www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 74 behalf of Maya Angelou's family, and especially Mr. Johnson. And I'm sure that you're going to look forward to an absolutely beautiful quarter when we're finished. Okay. -- Let's go to April and MS. STAFFORD: Chair? CHAIRWOMAN: sorry, what? Madam I'm MS. STAFFORD: believe Sorry. Mr. Johnson was tryingIto respond. I'm not sure your mic was on, sir. CHAIRWOMAN: right, Mr. Johnson. Oh, I can't see him. All Sorry. MR. JOHNSON: I wanted to say thank you very much. CHAIRWOMAN: MR. JOHNSON: this. You're welcome. I'm very grateful for This is a wonderful honor, and this is -CHAIRWOMAN: MR. JOHNSON: We're making history. This is a changing point, and I am very grateful that you folks are brave enough to make it. Thank you so much. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you to your mother. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 75 MS. STAFFORD: Thank you, sir. All righty. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. Moving on to the candidate designs up for consideration to honor Dr. Sally Ride. In 1983, NASA astronaut, Dr. Sally Ride, became the first American woman to fly in space. Therefore, Dr. Ride served as -- thereafter, excuse me, Dr. Ride served as an important voice for NASA's direction through her leadership of the NASA Task Force that issued a report to the administrator titled Leadership and America's Future in Space, informally known as The Ride Report. As well as her service on the Rogers Commission following the 1986 Space Shuttle Challenger tragedy and her service on the Columbia Accident Investigation Board in 2003. These designs have been reviewed by Dr. Ride's partner, Tam O'Shaughnessy, and her preference will be indicated in the information that follows about the candidate designs. As with the previous portfolio, experts at the Smithsonian prefer www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 76 design that include images of Dr. Ride. So we will start with Design No. 1. This design depicts Dr. Sally Ride next to a window on the space shuttle, inspired by her quote, "But when I wasn't working, I was usually at a window looking down at Earth." The placement of e pluribus unum is intentionally positioned over the earth next to America, indicating that out of all women in the United States, Dr. Ride was the first into space. The additional inscription is "Dr. Sally Ride." This is the preferred design of Dr. Ride's partner. If possible, she would like to see the addition of text such as "physicist," "astronaut," "educator" to highlight Dr. Ride's work in addition to being the first American woman in space. This is also the preferred design of experts at the Smithsonian and the recommendation by the U.S. Commission of Fine Arts, and they included a suggestion regarding the potential use of a NASA-specific patch. Moving on to Designs 2 and 3, these designs depict Dr. Sally Ride in zero gravity. symbolically hands the galaxy to the viewer, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 She Meeting April 20, 2021 77 representing her work in education and as an inspiration to future scientists. inscription is "Dr. Sally Ride." The additional Design 3 shown here also shows features the additional inscription, "First American woman in space." Designs 4 and 5 depict the first shuttle pallet satellite being retrieved of the space shuttle Challenger's robotic arm during NASA's seventh space shuttle mission in June 1983. Ride's first spaceflight. This is Dr. Sally Design 5, shown here, also depicts Space Shuttle Challenger in the background. The additional inscriptions are "astronaut, educator, author," and "Dr. Sally Ride." Madam Chair, that concludes the candidate designs. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Thank you so much. Regarding Design No. 1, I would like to ask Joe Menna and Ron Harrigal if they feel that since this seems to be the design that is most favored so far for Dr. Sally Ride if there is even room on here to put "physicist, astronaut, educator" without messing up the design. Joe, what do you think? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 78 This is Ron. MR. HARRIGAL: be a tough challenge, I think. to Joe on that. That would Artistically I'd defer But, yes, just the amount of real estate that's already taken up by the inscriptions would make that quite a difficult task, as far as I'm concerned. opinion. percent. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you for your MR. MENNA: Oh, I agree a hundred Joe? You really can't do it, honestly, without ruining the coin. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Thanks so much. that to me would be a technical question. I So think we could probably change the patch to whatever, but that's a friendly motion. Let's start with Dr. Dean Kotlowski, please. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Chairperson. Thank you, Madam This is Dean Kotlowski. I'm going to talk a little bit at the end of my comments more about this series. LGBTQ person Sally Ride may be the first to be honored on a U.S. coin. be corrected on www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I can Meeting April 20, 2021 79 that. So we have another major breakthrough here. When I looked at the designs, I was at first attracted to Nos. 2 and 3 because I loved the weightlessness. ways. These were fun designs in a lot of Again, tremendously drawn to them. As I looked at them more and more, though -- and I also loved the little space shuttle there. As I was drawn to them, actually on Designs 2 and 3, there's a tiny space shuttle that has been integrated, and I thought that was wonderful. But as I thought about them, I think that this would work much better on a half dollar or a dollar or a Congressional Gold Medal, and I don't believe she's been awarded a Congressional Gold Medal, so something to think about in the future. Some legislation, I believe, was introduced a few years ago. And I just think people would struggle with 2 and 3 to look at the coin and to see her just in terms of the size of the quarter. So No. 1 was the one that I gravitated to very much. I think it's a good design. good, safe design. It's a It's a nice design, the portrait. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 80 I'm going to become more partial to portraits, but I'm not going to rule out other types of designs on these coins. And, you know, with Nos. 4 and 5, again, terrific designs. We've seen a lot of spacecraft designs, and these two I liked. they were some of the better space designs. I think I especially like No. 5. And this is going to be I think my last mini-professorial lecture, at least of the day. But I want to talk a little bit just, again, about the series and the de facto pairing of George Washington with a prominent American woman. You know, for most of his life, it's been -- and the iconography of Washington, it's been George and Martha. And to reveal my philatelist tendencies, she becomes the first American woman to appear on a stamp in 1902, and it's because of him. And the pair of them are in two more disseminative sets in like 1922 and 1938. So it's George and Martha. She is the Matriarch of the Country, in a way, just as he is the Father of the Country. She's the Mother of the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 81 Country. He's the Father of the Country. And playing on that Father of the Country theme, Richard Norton Smith a number of years ago wrote a biography of George Washington called Patriarch. think there's a nice poignancy here. And, again, I We historians like complexity, irony, contradictions. So all of the women who are going to be depicted on these coins, I would predict, have had to struggle in one form or another in varying degrees with patriarchy. And just to see the two of them come together, I mean I can't be any more enthusiastic about this series, as I've been expressing. Congratulations to Congress, to the mint, and to the country going forward with this project. CHAIRWOMAN: putting that in context. MR. MORAN: Thank you. Thank you, Dean, for Michael Moran. Thank you, Mary. I'm going to go with the recommendation of the family here, No. 1. I have to admit that I wasn't overly enthused by this portfolio. around it. I had troubles getting my hands But I'm going to stay with No. 1. you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Thank Meeting April 20, 2021 82 CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you, Michael. Peter van Alfen. MR. VAN ALFEN: Chair. Thank you, Madame I have to agree with Mike. I wasn't overly enthused by a lot of the designs in this portfolio. I'm happy to vote for No. 1. I do have some questions, though about how the hair will be modeled. You know, this rendering here has obviously a degree of fading, which, you know, makes it at least in the two-dimensional rendering, you know, rather attractive, but it does raise some questions about how to model that hair to come across. I think, you know, Joe and Ron and the team at the mint did a great job with the Christa McAuliffe rendering, you know, the hair there, and perhaps, you know, I would imagine something similar will be done with the hair here. But, you know, it's one of the concerns that I have. But I do have to say, I rather enjoy the symbolism of the e pluribus unum, you know, and what this represents, you know, in a context of this coin, so I'm very happy to have had that explained. But that's what I have to say. Thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 83 CHAIRWOMAN: Thanks, Peter. Tom Uram, please. MR. URAM: Thank you, Madam Chair. I agree also with -- as you can hear, I'm getting help. I agree with No. 1 as well, and I also think that No. 4 and 5 just kind of looked a little too much like the Innovation dollar with the Hubble Telescope. Even though it isn't, it just came across to me that way. one is to go with No. 1. So I think the appropriate Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRWOMAN: Thanks, Tom. MS. SALMON: -- Salmon. Robin Salmon. preferred No. 1. I, too, I thought that while 2 and 3 were most inventive that they wouldn't come across well in the space of the coin, the size of the coin. And it was almost a little too playful also for such an important subject. Four and five reminded me also of the Hubble Telescope, even though that's not what is being depicted. But it still seems like something that's already been done. And I do think that it's really www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 84 important when honoring the woman to have the woman on the coin, and for that reason, I would go with No. 1. Thank you. CHAIRWOMAN: Robin. Thank you very much, Sam Gill. MR. GILL: Sam Gill. Thank you, Mary. This is I'm going to put my votes on No. 1 for a couple of reasons. The first reason is that her accomplishment to be the first woman to go into space for the United States was an enormous, enormous accomplishment. And I think just having her image on that coin is a really important feature. And she looks hopeful here, and she's looking to the future. And I feel that this will make a very, very lovely coin, and I'm happy to support it. Two and three were a little too fanciful for me, and I agree that four and five looked -- they could be just any space mission. No. 1 will get my vote. So Thank you, Mary. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you so much, Sam. Lawrence Brown. DR. BROWN: Good afternoon. This is www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 85 Lawrence Brown. Design 1. I, too, am gravitating towards I must confess, unlike my colleagues, I like to have a little fun, so I like the playfulness of 2 and 3, I must confess. But I do also believe that there's some value that when the public picks up this quarter and you have a child asking the question, "Well, what does this mean," it's important to be able to give that lesson right then and there. It's important so it not be so subtle as in design 4 and 5. So I think that this Design 1 makes the most sense, and particularly the fact that looking out of the window, you can see the plant earth. I think this represents a wonderful educational opportunity and for a parent to talk to their child about what this means in their coinage. So to me, Madam Chair, again, I vote for Design 1. Chairwoman: Thank you, Dr. Brown. Donald Scarinci. MR. SCARINCI: Yes. No. 1, it is. There's really no other choice. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Turks and Caicos don't really have a good volume control right now, so www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 86 you're just going to go with No. 1; right? Thank you, Donald. Arthur Bernstein. MR. BERNSTEIN: Bernstein. Okay. Hi, this is Art I also gravitate towards No. 1. I have two points of clarification and then one philosophical issue to raise. Clarification No. 1 would be, I understand she is looking out a window, but as I look at this design on the paper that I printed out, there's a shadow on her right side of her face, and I'm not sure what that's trying to portray. Unfortunately, it looks a little bit like a five o'clock shadow to me, and it wasn't clear what the artist is doing with that darkness. Second point of clarification was addressed briefly, and that was the patch on her chest. I think it's important that it be a real -- I don't know what that emblem is, but I think it's important that it be a real NASA emblem, because we want to identify her as an astronaut. Those are my two points of clarification. My philosophical issue, and I recognize www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 87 that we have quite a few doctors on this committee, and I mean no offense, but I wanted to raise the issue of whether we should be using titles as we go about honoring these women on the next set of quarters. I found it distracting, because it seems to me the primary thing we're honoring Dr. Ride for in this coin is her being the first woman in space, not that she has a PhD in physics. And I wonder as we go forward with other women to be recognized if we're going to get caught up in what are their titles. ambassador? Is it an Is it a registered nurse? I just find using the word "doctor" to be distracting, because I'm not clear whether she's a medical doctor, whether she's a physicist. name. And I would just use the person's But I'm in support of Design No. 1. CHAIRWOMAN: Art. All right. Thank you, Dennis Tucker. MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Madame Chair. This was a tough portfolio, because I understand Ms. O'Shaughnessy's desire to get more explanation into that design on No. 1. It's a nice design that we www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 88 would typically see for a silver dollar in a commemorative program or possibly in a Congressional Gold Medal where we've got a large canvas to work with. I'm a little bit concerned at the, what is it, 24-millimeter size that we have with a quarter dollar, but I think it would be fine at that diameter. Certainly adding more text there would not work, as Joe confirmed. No. 1 is traditional. this kind of portraiture. necessarily. I mean we see That's not a bad thing It does the job. It's inspiring. She's looking up in the heavens. Nos. 2 and 3, I struggled with these a bit. I wrestled with these. playfulness. I really liked the I think that these would stand out in your pocket change. They're very different, certainly very different from No. 1, which is a traditional use of portraiture in American coinage. I don't like the use of twenty five cents with the alphanumeric spelling, but we can talk about that later. No. 3, you know, it spells out what she's done here, the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 89 first American woman in space. And then 4 and 5, what I find appealing about those is that even though the designs are not as innovative because we've seen similar scenes and coinage recently, they do spell out her different roles as astronaut, educator, and author. I would concur with the recommendations of Ms. O'Shaughnessy, the Smithsonian, and the CFA with No. 1, but I will give some merit votes to Nos. 2 and 3 as well for their creativity. Thank you, Madame Chair. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. And I think it's my turn now. my votes toward No. 1. Thank you, Dennis. I, too, am putting all I like that sort of long gaze into the future that even though she's there, she's thinking about maybe even the next time she gets to go up. I want the patch to be the NASA patch that was correct at the time she was flying for that. I don't want a modern NASA patch. NASA patch for that. I want the correct And it has our recommended quarter dollar, or preferred, I should say, quarter www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 90 dollar. I like where the e pluribus unum is. The whimsical ones, I think, were just too cute. It didn't really show anything. tell anything. It didn't And for 4 and 5, engineering geeks will probably love them, but I just think that we've seen too much sort of space itself right now so I'm going to give all my votes to No. 1. And in regards to Sally Ride or Dr. Sally Ride, she earned the doctor, so I prefer that. So does mint have any -- oh, I'm sorry. Dennis, you wanted to say something? MR. TUCKER: to bring up a couple points. Yes. Thank you. I wanted One, just to quickly get this into the public record, I wanted to mention the concept of merit voting or merit rankings. We talk about it because we know what it is, but members of the public might be reading this transcript and won't necessarily know what we're talking about. So the merit ranking is where we give feedback to the mint's artists and indicate that we feel that a particular design has some special merit. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 91 Whether we vote for it or not or whether it ends up being our recommendation to the secretary is irrelevant, but that's for the individual member to make a merit ranking. And then I believe that feedback is given to the artists to help them in their future work. And then the second thing I wanted to talk about was the denomination and how the denomination is indicated on this coin series. This is the first modern coin series that has no established designed template, which is wonderful. You know, it's a refreshing change. to free up our artists. It's really going They've almost got a whole inch to work with on this canvass, and we're not giving them rules like the state quarters had in the America the Beautiful quarters, where you have to place certain inscriptions and legends and the date and things like that. But I would recommend one design rule just for the sake of -- continuities going back at least to 1892, and that's that we phrase the denomination consistently as quarter dollar throughout www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 92 the series. Quarter dollars were authorized by Congress in 1792. They were first minted in 1796. And the first coin design among the quarters actually didn't include the denomination at all. In 1804, it was added as 25, space, capital C, period, and that lasted until 1838, when the liberty seated design at the abbreviation quar, period, doll, D-O-L, period. And then in 1892 and since 1892, we've had it spelled out as quarter dollar. And I think that we need to be consistent. If we just make a motion, I think, to make this an official recommendation to the mint's artists, which would give them the guidance to consistently use the full name of the denomination, quarter dollar. That way we won't end up with different spellings or abbreviations throughout the series and also will have a stronger connection to the historical usage in American numismatics. CHAIRWOMAN: All right. Dennis, make that motion and then ask for a second. DR. KOTLOWSKI: CHAIRWOMAN: I second it, Mary. Okay. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 93 DR. KOTLOWSKI: CHAIRWOMAN: Dean Kotlowski. All in favor of Dennis' motion and with Dean's second say "Aye." (Whereupon, multiple unidentified participants responded affirmatively.) CHAIRWOMAN: unanimously. Opposed? Motion passes Do we have any additional comments from the mint staff? MR. VAN ALFEN: Peter van Alfen. Madame Chair, this is I do have a comment about the patch, if I could. CHAIRWOMAN: Sure. MR. VAN ALFEN: So the patch for STS-7, which was the Challenger Space Shuttle mission that Sally Reed [sic] first flew on, the patch for that mission showed a view of the Challenger head on with this five-prong symbol as -- of that patch. So I believe that that five-prong symbol represents the five crewmembers, and the one with the cross represents Sally as the symbol, you know, for a female. So I believe that this does accurately represent the patch. It's not the complete www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 94 patch, which I think would not show up well on the quarter. But this element of the patch is accurate for STS-7, and I think, you know, at scale, you know, it might be visible. So I would recommend that we just leave the patch as is since it does seem to be representative of STS-7, which was her first space shuttle flight. All right, Peter. CHAIRWOMAN: you for looking that up for us. MR. MORAN: Any other comments? Mary, this is Mike Moran. CHAIRWOMAN: MR. MORAN: Thank Yes, Mike. I'm going to have to support Art and his point about Dr. Sally Ride. I'm going to cross you on this. CHAIRWOMAN: MR. MORAN: Mm-hmm. Yes, she earned it, but she also earned the part on the quarter by her accomplishments. I think that Art very correctly said we're going down a path if we start to use these titles that we might regret later. I don't quibble with the fact that she's a doctor, but I think we set a precedence here that the mint, not this committee, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 95 but the mint needs to consider and make a conscious decision either to include it or exclude it, with the idea going forward that we exclude or include titles. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you, Mike. Dr. Brown, you wanted to say something? DR. BROWN: want to. Yes, ma'am, I certainly This is Lawrence Brown, and I'd like to share with my colleagues as one of those persons who is a physician that the MD is probably the easiest doctorate to get. A PhD is much more difficult. And I'm not sure to what extent that her PhD set the path for her to be what she is doing. So I think that if we do not give people what they've earned, then we are missing out on telling the story. So I think that we want to tell the story, unless there is some historian that can tell me that her PhD in physics had nothing to do with her being that person who she is and being able to be the first woman in space. CHAIRWOMAN: much. Dr. Brown, thank you very Dean Kotlowski, did you want to say something? DR. KOTLOWSKI: I sure did. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 96 CHAIRWOMAN: All right. DR. KOTLOWSKI: the doctor. Go for it. I'm in favor of keeping Dr. Brown, thank you for saying that the PhD is harder to get than the MD. disagree with you. I respectfully But this is a mutual admiration society that we're developing right here around doctorate. Her partner wanted, Ms. O'Shaughnessy wanted to add some additional text, and we don't have the room for it. And I think having doctor there, it helps in terms of her biography. People will see the doctor, and, you know, kids will ask questions. "What was she a" -- you can look it up. And there is something, we've been having this big -- there's something about Martin Luther King Jr. This is about 30 years or so ago, 40 years ago whether we should call him Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. or Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. For an African-American man when he was growing up to get doctorate, it really meant something and was really special. I don't think that, you know, being a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 97 doctor, it's the same thing as being an ambassador or a president. I mean when we do a coin with the president, we don't put President Bill Clinton on it or something. We don't have to do this with titles. This is something that is I think very unique and very special. And Jill Biden, we've seen the debate, Dr. Jill Biden. And, you know, I am old enough to remember when Kissinger and Brzezinski had interviews, and they were honorifically referred to by the interviewer as Dr. Kissinger or Dr. Brzezinski. I don't think this is something that is going to set some sort of precedent here with every person who is a doctor, that this has to be included. I agree with Dr. Brown. I think it's part of her personal story, and it's important. MR. WEINMAN: Madame Chair? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'd like to say something. MR. WEINMAN: CHAIRWOMAN: MR. WEINMAN: Madame Chair? Yes, Greg. Just a real quick www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 98 point -Yes, Greg. CHAIRWOMAN: MR. WEINMAN: -- of clarification, only because it's come up three times. Dr. Sally Ride's partner is Dr. Tam O'Shaughnessy, not Miss. CHAIRWOMAN: clarifying that, Greg. Thank you so much for Let's not forget that these coins are going to be a learning tool for all the young women that want to get in STEM programs and get their own doctorates. doctor on there. I think that we need to keep I think it would be something against her memory to take that incredible accomplishment away from her. So if anybody wants to make a motion to take the title off the coin, make it now, and we'll have a vote. MR. MORAN: I can't hear you. Nine to two doesn’t work. We're not going to do that. CHAIRWOMAN: No, it doesn't, Mike. No, it doesn't. to Greg. All right. Let's please get our scores And it is 2:43. By five minutes to 3:00, we will have our scores, and we can wrap this up. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 99 MR. WEINMAN: CHAIRWOMAN: Sounds good. Thank you. MR. WEINMAN: Send them at will. (Off the record) MR. WEINMAN: Okay. Design No. 1 received 31 of 33 possible points, making it the high -- Design 2 received 6 points, Design 3 received 5 points, Design 4 received 2 points, and Design 5 received 2 points is all. CHAIRWOMAN: much. All right. Thank you very So do we have any additional comments? I've got some stuff in the chat that needs to be brought up. I know that Joe Menna, you wanted to say something about the shading? MR. MENNA: address any concerns. Yeah, sure. Just to Like the way the hair is shaded, I don't call that shading. It's more like when the artists color in instead of shade, and we know how to interpret that. We're still working on trying to, you know, get the newer artists to work away from that style of depicting form. But the marks on the side of the face, they're appropriate. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 That Meeting April 20, 2021 100 shows you where the plane break is on the face, so we're getting a really good reading of the form of the face via the shading. So that's all. I just wanted to explain what those marks were and how we would interpret them. We'll handle it. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. No problem. Great. Thanks. So anybody have any other comments before I mention something that's in the chat? Okay. So, Jennifer and I were talking about the use of the word "doctor." Dr. Sally Ride was addressed that way I think her entire career. Maya Angelou was also addressed as doctor. And she had a lifetime professorship at -- oh, shoot. missed it. Carolina. But I just At a college in Winston-Salem, North And she was the Professor of American Studies there. And it was sort of a lifetime tenure. But I think that even though some writings address her as doctor, she was so much more than that. dancer. She was a playwright. She was a She was a poet. was a writer. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 She Meeting April 20, 2021 101 So the question is, we need to come up with something that is accurate and is respectful for all of the women that we are going to put on the reverses of these coins. So I'd like to open that up to discussion, but I do think Dr. Sally Ride needs to stay Dr. Sally Ride. That's my opinion. DR. VAN ALFEN: Alfen. This is Peter van Can I just ask, is there any precedent for putting titles on coins? CHAIRWOMAN: That's what we're trying to figure out, before we start something that we get in the middle of. She was the lifetime Reynolds Professorship of American Studies at the Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. She was one of the few full-time African-American professors. DR. VAN ALFEN: CHAIRWOMAN: Right. But I think -- But it also said following that, "From that point on, she considered herself, quote, 'a teacher who writes.'" DR. VAN ALFEN: MR. MORAN: All right. This is Mike Moran who probably should take the blame for stirring this up www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 102 along with Art. The way I worded my comment was very careful, that we should leave it up to the mint, and I think that's where it needs to be. I don't think we can solve it here in a round-robin here this afternoon. I think the mint can take a look at precedence and decide what they want to do on it. CHAIRWOMAN: Well, along with that, Mike, not so much maybe precedence, but as the mint staff works with the liaisons for each woman that's chosen for this, that's, you know, a box that can be checked off and determined if that is their usual title. April? MS. STAFFORD: Madame Chair? Yes, I just wanted to note that these are part of the discussions that we have with the families as well as, you know, representatives who are responsible for ensuring that we accurately and appropriately depict honorees on coins and medals. And I think it's fitting that this entire series is meant to honor the accomplishments and contributions of these women. And so, of course, it'll be within that context that such conversations www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 103 will occur. And I appreciate Mr. Moran's comments, that, you know, sometimes it's not an either/or. There's a lot of factors that go into it, so thank you for that. CHAIRWOMAN: Well, thank you. I can't imagine that you all being so thorough wouldn't be asking those questions, so thank you very much in advance. Does anybody have any other comments? DR. KOTLOWSKI: DR. BROWN: CHAIRWOMAN: Madame Chairperson? I do, Madame Chair. I think I got Dr. Brown first. DR. BROWN: This is Lawrence Brown. I am certainly receptive to, in fact, Mike's perspective on this. I'm okay with that. And I think that probably had the issue been so significant for Maya Angelou's son that he would have probably raised it. CHAIRWOMAN: DR. BROWN: Exactly, exactly. He was so forthright in terms of what he thought should be his mother. So I am comfortable with, in fact, allowing the mint to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 104 have the conversation, the very sensitive conversation, I might add, between the mint and the significant others of the persons that we honor. CHAIRWOMAN: Right. Thank you. Who else had a comment? DR. KOTLOWSKI: Chairperson. I did, Mary -- Madame This is Dean Kotlowski. If it's possible, I am on the side of Dr. Brown and Mike Moran and also on the side of Mary. Ride should be there. I still think Dr. Sally And ultimately, like Mike and Dr. Brown were saying, let the mint work this out. would just point out something. I It is not clear to me that Maya Angelou earned a doctorate, a PhD. CHAIRWOMAN: She did not. DR. KOTLOWSKI: she was a professor. Okay. All right. So So you all have people in academe, you know, very prominent people who will become, quote, unquote, "professors" without doctorates. So here again, it is something parallel to being an ambassador or president or senator or something along those lines. It is not the actual doctorate. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 105 And, Madame Chairperson, I think what you were saying is right, that, you know, Maya Angelou was much more than just the title. So, really, if you were going to put something for her on the coin, you would probably have to put Professor Maya Angelou. Do you really want to go down that rabbit hole? CHAIRWOMAN: No. No. The son got what his remembrance of his mother as the way that he wanted it, and I think that we've already chosen the design. So any further questions or comments? Okay. This concludes our business for today, and I appreciate you coming to the meeting. The next meeting on your calendar, please, is May 18, 2021. And if there's no further business to come before the committee, I will entertain a motion to adjourn. DR. VAN ALFEN: So moved. MS. SALMON: This is Robin Salmon. CHAIRWOMAN: That was Peter. And, Robin, you were a second? MS. SALMON: I'll second. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. All in favor of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 106 adjourning say "Aye." (Whereupon, multiple unidentified participants responded affirmatively.) CHAIRWOMAN: your cooperation today. Goodbye, and thank you for Thank you very much. Bye- bye. (Whereupon, multiple unidentified participants expressed informal goodbyes.) (Whereupon, the meeting concluded at 2:58 p.m.) www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 107 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, NATALIE SCHMITTING, the officer before whom the foregoing proceedings were taken, do hereby certify that any witness(es) in the foregoing proceedings, prior to testifying, were duly sworn; that the proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting by a qualified transcriptionist; that said digital audio recording of said proceedings are a true and accurate record to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. NATALIE SCHMITTING Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 20, 2021 108 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER I, LAURA MORIN, do hereby certify that this transcript was prepared from the digital audio recording of the foregoing proceeding, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings to the best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. LAURA MORIN www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376