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Meeting

April 19, 2022

Page 1
C I T I Z E N S COIN AGE A D V I S O R Y C O M M I T T E E

________________________________

Uni te d St at es Mint
T e l e p h o n i c Me eti ng

________________________________

DATE:

Tue sd ay Ap ril 19, 2022

TIME:

9:00 a.m.

LOCATION:

Video C o n f e r e n c e Me eti ng

R E P O R T E D BY:

Sho nd a D aw so n , No tar y Pu bl ic

JOB No.:

515 61 90

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A P P E A R A N C E S:
CCAC MEMBERS:
DR. LAWRENCE BROWN
PETER VAN ALFEN
ARTHUR BERNSTEIN
MARY LANNIN
SAM GILL
DEAN KOTLOWSKI
MICHAEL MORAN
DENNIS TUCKER
ROBIN SALMON
DONALD SCARINCI
DR. HARCOURT FULLER

UNITED STATES MINT:
APRIL STAFFORD, Chief, Office of Design Management
MEGAN SULLIVAN, Program Manager
BONEZA HANCHOK, Program Manager
PAM BORER, Program Manager
ROGER VASQUEZ, Design Manager
JOE MENNA, Mint Chief Engraver
MIKE COSTELLO, Manager, Design and Engraving
MICHELE THOMPSON, Program Analyst

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JENNIFER WARREN, Director of Legal Affairs and Liaison
to the CCAC
GREG WEINMAN, Senior Legal Counsel and Counsel to the
CCAC and Counsel assigned to the American Women
Quarters Program and the Native American $1 Coin
Program
BETTY BIRDSONG,
Senior Government Affairs Specialist, Office of
Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs
ALSO PRESENT:
MIKE UNSER, Coin News
BRANDON HALL, Coin Update, Mint News Blog
PAUL GILKES, Coin World
GIGI COLEMAN, great niece of Bessie Coleman.
CHRISTOPHER ROOSEVELT, grandson of Eleanor Roosevelt
NANCY ROOSEVELT IRELAND, granddaughter of Eleanor
Roosevelt
LIZ LOPEZ, family representative for Jovita Idar
MARTHA AKI, family representative for Jovita Idar
ELISE PASCHEN, daughter of Maria Tallchief

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P R O C E E D I N G S
REPORTER: So, I am going to hand it
over to Dr. Brown to initiate the meeting.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Good morning. This is
Lawrence Brown and I call to order this meeting of the
Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee,

for

Tuesday,

April 19, 2022.
To ensure that we have a quorum, I call
to order this meeting – I’m sorry, to ensure that we
have a quorum, I want to introduce the members of the
Committee. Please respond ‘present’ when I call your
name. Peter van Alfen?
MR. VAN ALFEN:

Present.

CHAIRMAN BROWN: Arthur Bernstein?
MR. BERNSTEIN: Present.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Mary Lannin?
MS. LANNIN: Present.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Samuel Gill.
MR. GILL: Present.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Dean Kotlowski?
MR. KOTLOWSKI: Present.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Michael Moran?

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MR. MORAN:

Present.

CHAIRMAN BROWN: Robin Salmon?
MS. SALMON: Present.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Donald Scarinci?
MAN 1: Not yet.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Dennis Tucker?
MR. TUCKER: Present.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Dr. Harcourt Fuller?
DR. FULLER: Present.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Go back to Donald
Scarinci. Not yet. And I am Dr. Lawrence Brown,
Chair of the CCAC. I believe we have a quorum.
MAN 1: We do.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: We do. Donald is probably
joining later.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Before we begin this
meeting, I would like to remind each member of the
Committee to mute his or her phone, or microphone,
when not talking, and to announce your name prior to
speaking, each time, so the Court Reporter can
accurately attribute statements to you.
Additionally, I remind the public to

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mute your phone, as this is a listening-only hearing
for the public.
The agenda for today's portion for the
public meeting includes the following: Approval of a
letter to the Secretary of Treasury, and the minutes
of our February 15, 2022 meeting; a review and
discussion of the reverse candidate designed for the
2023 American Woman Quarters, which include candidate
designs for Bessie Coleman, Eleanor Roosevelt, Jovita
Idar, and Edith -- I'll probably mispronounce her
name, please forgive me -- and Edith Kanaka'ole -MS. STAFFORD: Dr. Brown, this is April
Stafford.

I'm happy to help out.

It's Jovita Idar

and Edith Kanaka'ole.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
April (inaudiable). And Maria Tallchief.
We will also review and have a
discussion of reverse candidate designs for the 2023
Native American $1 coin.
Before we begin today's proceedings, I
will ask Betty Birdsong if there is any members of the
press on the call today? Betty, you're on mute.

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MS. BIRDSONG:
Brown.

Thank you Chairman

On the phone we should have Paul Gilkes, who

is the Coin World Senior Editor. He works with Amos
Media. We have Mike Unser, who is the Founder and
Editor of CoinNews Media Group. And we have Brendon
Hall, who is the Senior Associate Editor for Whitman
Publishing. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
Betty. For the record, I would also like to confirm
that the following Mint staff are on the call today:
Please indicate present after I have called your name.
April Stafford again?
MS. STAFFORD: Present.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Megan Sullivan?
MS. SULLIVAN: Present.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Boneza Hanchock?
MS. HANCHOCK: Present.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Pam Borer?
MS. BORER: Present.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Roger Vasquez?
MR. VASQUEZ: Present.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Russell Evans?

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MR. EVANS:

Present.

CHAIRMAN BROWN: Joe Menna?
MR. MENNA: Present.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Mike Costello?
MR. COSTELLO: Present.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Michele Thompson?
MS. THOMPSON: Present.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Jennifer Warren?
MS. WARREN: Present.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Greg Weinman?
MR. WEINMAN: Present.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: And of course, Betty
Birdsong.
MS. BIRDSONG: Present.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: And finally, the
following liaisons will be on the call today. For the
2023 American Women Quarters Program, for Bessie
Coleman, we have Gigi Coleman, great niece of Bessie
Coleman.
For Eleanor Roosevelt, we have
Christopher Roosevelt, and Ms. Nancy Roosevelt
Ireland, respectively grandson and granddaughter.

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For Jovita Idar, we have Ms. Liz Lopez,
family representative, and other family member, Martha
Aki.
For Edith Kanaka'ole, we have, in fact,
her granddaughter and Executive Director of the
Foundation.
For Maria Tallchief, we have her
daughter, Elise Paschen. Ms. Paschen will also be
joining us for the discussion of the 2023 Native
American $1 coin.
I would like to thank all of you for
joining us here today.
Now, moving to the business of the day,
first, I'd like to begin with the Mint. Are there any
issues that need to be addressed before we start?
MS. BIRDSONG: There are no issues with
the Mint. This is Betty Birdsong.
CHAIRMAN BROWN:

Hearing none, our

first item on the agenda is the review and the
approval of a letter to the secretary, and approval of
the minutes from our February 15, 2022 public meeting.
Are there any comments on the documents

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from any of CCAC members?
Hearing none, is there a motion to
approve the minutes?
MR. VAN ALFEN: Peter Van Alfen, so
moved.
MR. BERNSTEIN: Art Bernstein seconds.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you both. On
the basis of the fact that we have a motion and a
second, all those in favor, please signify by saying
Aye.
GROUP: Aye.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Are there any
objections to the motion? If not, and without
objection to the minutes, without objection the
minutes and the letters are approved.
Having executed our responsibilities
regarding these matters, analogous to what I would
call the appetizers, and before we move to the main
course, I would like to recognize that this is a
historic meeting on several levels.
This meeting is occurring during the
National Coin Week 2022, celebrated this year from

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April 17 through April 23. This annual celebration
began with a Presidential Proclamation on April 21,
1974. This year, the theme is dynamic designs,
artistic masterpieces.
I truly believe we will bear witness,
we will all bear witness, that the designs that come
before us today, are dynamic and, hopefully, destined
to become masterpieces, products of the efforts, of
the phenomenal efforts of the artists and the
dedicated Mint staff who support them.
Now, April Stafford, Chief of the Mint
Office of Design Management, will present the reverse
candidate designs for the 2023 American Women
Quarters, beginning with 2023 quarter honoring Bessie
Coleman.
MS. STAFFORD: Thank you so much, Dr.
Brown. And I'll ask the team member who is presenting
to share their screen. All right.
Some background first on the American
Women Quarters Program. It is Public Law 116-330, the
Circulating Collectable Coin Redesign Act, that
requires the Secretary of the Treasury to issue up to

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five quarter dollars each year, emblematic of
prominent American women, starting in 2022, and
continuing through 2025.
The women to be featured on these
quarters are selected in accordance with a process
approved by the Secretary of the Treasury, that
includes consultation with the Smithsonian's American
Women's History Initiative, the National Women's
History Museum, and the Bipartisan Women's Caucus.
The obverse of the American Women
Quarters will continue to feature Laura Gardin
Fraser's profile of George Washington, and those
obverse inscriptions include Liberty, In God We Trust,
and of course, the year of issuance.
The reverse designs for this program,
quote, "Shall be emblematic of the accomplishments and
contributions of one prominent woman of the United
States, and may include contributions to the United
States in a wide spectrum of accomplishments and
fields, including but not limited to: suffrage, civil
rights, abolition, government, humanities, science,
space and arts, and should honor women from

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ethnically, racially and geographically diverse
backgrounds," end quote.
Designs have all been reviewed by
experts at the Smithsonian and the National Women's
History Museum, as well as family members or family
representatives of the honorees.
I will specify

the

Smithsonian

reviewers and the family representatives, when I
introduce each portfolio. You should know that the
National Women's History Museum's reviewers for all
portfolios include the following: Allida Black, a
distinguished scholar at the UVA Miller Center for
Public Affairs, also a Trustee for the FDR
Presidential Library, and a Director of the Women's
Campaign School at Yale, and George Washington
University Editor Emeritus of the Eleanor Roosevelt
Papers Project; Laurie Glover, the John Francis Bannon
Endowed Chair at the Department of History at St.
Louis University, and author of four books on early
American history; Bonnie Morris, Professor at
Georgetown University and Professor Emeritus at George
Washington University; Marjorie Spruill, Distinguished

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Professor Emeritus at the History Department at the
University of South Carolina, and a recognized leading
authority on the Women's Movement.
All reverse designs in all of the
portfolios are inscribed with the honoree's name, as
well as the inscriptions, United States of America, E
Pluribus Unum, and the denomination.

Variations on

the denomination include 25 cents, spelled out;
quarter dollar, spelled out; or the numerals 25, and
then the cent mark.
All right. So, we will dip right into
the portfolio for Bessie Coleman. Some background on
this very important person:

Bessie Coleman was a

pilot, advocate and pioneer, who flew to great heights
as the first African American and first Native
American woman pilot, as well as the first African
American to earn an international pilot's license.
Her determination and strong will continue to inspire
people today.
Born when African Americans were
subject to overt racism and segregation laws of the
time, Brave Bessie, as Coleman was sometimes called,

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was able to defy the odds and become an aviator. Her
tenacious drive and fearless personality helped pave
the way for future generations of aviators.
After being refused

admission

into

every US flying school that she approached, Coleman
learned French and saved enough money to attend flight
school in France, where she was the only student of
color in her class. After earning her international
pilot's license, Coleman returned to the US and
performed in countless air shows.

She was known for

the loop the loop, flying in the shape of a figure
eight, and her 1922 public flight was the first
performed by an African American woman.

Coleman made

a point of refusing to speak or perform anywhere that
segregated or discriminated against African Americans.
So, in addition to the list of National
Women's History Museum scholars and historians I noted
before, who reviewed this portfolio. The Smithsonian
reviewers also included Dr. Emily Margolis, at the
National Air and Space Museum. She's a curator of
American Women's History there. She's also jointly
appointed at the National Air and Space Museum, as

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well as the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory in
Cambridge, Massachusetts.
In addition to Dr. Margolis, we had
Dorothy Cochran, also at the National Air and Space
Museum, and author and curator of the collections of
General Aviation Aircraft, Flight Material, Aerial
Cameras and the History of General Aviation and Women
in Aviation.
I would also like to ask family
representative Gigi Coleman, who is with us today, to
say a few words. Ms. Coleman, as we noted before, is
the family spokesperson, also, Bessie Coleman's great
niece. She is an educator herself who specializes in
keeping Coleman's legacy alive through event
partnerships and nonprofit education programs.
So, Ms. Coleman, I hope you're with us.
Would you like to address the Committee?
MS. COLEMAN:
MS. STAFFORD:
MS. COLEMAN:

Yes.

Can you hear me?

Yes, ma'am.
Okay, yes. Good morning.

My name is Gigi Coleman, the great niece of Bessie
Coleman. It is an honor and a pleasure for me to be

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speaking on behalf of the pioneer aviatrix.

It is

with great humility that the Coleman family is honored
to speak to the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee,
who advises the Secretary of the Treasurer.
We are celebrating Bessie's 100th year
anniversary of her obtaining her international pilot
license, which is such an amazing accomplishment.
Bessie's impact in the world was to
encourage young and old to follow their dreams and
never give up on your abilities. She believed in
diversity, inclusion. She showed that what
determination, integrity, perseverance, can accomplish
in your lifetime.
Bessie was the first Black woman to
receive her international pilot license in 1921, two
years before Amelia Earhart. But she was not in the
history books because of racism.
Bessie died at the age of 34, April
1926. She was unable to open up her aviation school,
but she opened the doors for others.
My mother, the late Marian Coleman,
worked tirelessly to get recognition for her aunt, by

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obtaining a postage stamp, and also a street named
after her, leading into O'Hare Airport.
Bessie was raised in a house full of
love, family devotion and a deep belief in God.
The two coins I decided on, that I feel
that the artist illustrated Bessie's wonderful,
wonderful appearance -- the date -- (inaudible) choice
was Bessie looking towards the sky.

(inaudible)

always wanted, to look at the sky, the freedom, her
dreams and her achievements.
I’d like to thank Ms. April and Ms.
Hanchock for all your assistance in helping me design
the wonderful coin. Thank you so much.
MS. STAFFORD: Thank you so much, Ms.
Coleman. It was our pleasure, really, to work with
you.

Okay, so, we will go to the candidate designs.

I will note that all of the designs honoring Bessie
Coleman, that you will consider here today,
(inaudible) of her with her Curtis JN Jenny airplane.
So, we will start with Reverse One.
Reverse 1 depicts Coleman as she smiles
and soars skyward, giving a thumbs-up gesture. The

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additional inscription is, "Brave Bessie Coleman."
Reverse 2 features Coleman in her
signature long leather trench coat and flight cap as
she adjusts her goggles with the wind buffeting around
her. The wind symbolizes the extreme conditions early
aviators were exposed to, and the cultural and
logistical challenges that Bessie Coleman faced.
Reverses 3, 4 and 4A, depict Coleman as
she suits up in preparation for flight, her expression
reflective of her determination.
Design 4A -- we can go to 4A -- also
includes the inscription, "8/15/1920," the date
Coleman received her pilot's license. This reverse,
Reverse 4A, is one of the family's two preferred
designs.
Reverse 5 and 5A portray Coleman
standing in front of a cloud-covered sky. Reverse 5,
seen here, if we can go back there, is one of the
family's two preferred designs. Also, this reverse,
Reverse 5, is the preference of representatives from
the National Air and Space Museum.
Reverses 6 and 6A include a

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dramatization of Coleman performing a stunt in her
plane, as she waves to the audience, with the 1920s
Chicago skyline below her.
And Dr. Brown, that concludes the
candidate designs for this portfolio.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
April, and I also want to add my thanks to you, Ms.
Coleman for, in fact, the efforts that you have, in
fact, gone through, to advance the legacy of your
aunt.
MS. COLEMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: So, let me then ask
Joe Menna and Mike Costello if they have anything to
share with the Committee on the designs of these
coins?
JOE MENNA: This is Joe Menna. I'll
defer to Mike first.
MR. COSTELLO: This is Mike. Yes, I
believe they're all fantastic designs.

For me, I

would go, you know, I really like the 5, PCR 5 and 5A.
As far as coinability, they all look fantastic.

But

5, I think that -- 5 and 5A, both of them look very --

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they look fantastic. I think they would be fine in
coinability. That's all I have. Thanks.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Joe, do you have
anything to add?
MR. MENNA: Thank you, Dr. Chairperson,
yes.

For the portfolio, just to state the obvious,

you know, the bigger the -- the full-figured
representations will be very difficult -- if the
Committee is interested in sharing a likeness, the
smaller the -- the bigger the figure, the smaller the
face, the more difficult the readability.

So, you

know, I think the shared -- the obverse is that the
multiple stakeholders all like in common -- I can't
really read it. But the one, you know, the large
portrait, the third, the fourth and the fifth designs,
any one of those three will provide the greatest
potential for maximizing Ms. Coleman's likeness, and
also honor her grandniece -- I'm sorry, I apologize,
Ms. Coleman -- the notion of looking at the sky and
looking forward to the future; symbolically, it
communicates that very well, not just literally.
Thank you.

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CHAIRMAN BROWN:

Thank you so much,

Joe. From the Committee are there any technical or
legal questions from the Committee about the program
or the designs of the 2023 Bessie Coleman quarter,
before we begin our general discussion? I do see Mike
Moran has his hand up.
MR. MORAN: Yup.

Thank you, Dr. Brown.

Joe, I know, I think every single one where you
portray the Jenny, the propeller is stationary, even
though the plane is in flight, and you would not
necessarily see that. Was that by intent to -because I would normally have expected to see some
sort of circular blurring.
MR. MENNA:

This is Joe Menna.

Mike,

you know, we don't really have -- our only
prescription is -- we don't have a prescription for
making propellers. It's just, our thing is, there's a
couple, there are few things that we have issues with:
glass, right, anything that one can see through;
something in motion, like a propeller.

If we feel

that the artist is satisfactory, captured that moment
in time, which even at the scale of these planes one

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would assume that the -- it's a frozen moment. So, if
the propeller is frozen, that's cool, from my
perspective. There's been coins where we've done -you're right, for the most part, we do circular
propellers to communicate that they are in motion.
It's almost like the plane is frozen in its space, but
then the propeller is still in motion.

You know what

I mean? So, in this case, every aspect of the device
-- the plane, the propeller, the streak in the sky -they're all in motion -- they're all frozen at the
same point in time. That spinning propeller is an
optical effect, whereas this is a sculpture.

So,

we're trying to be maybe a little more symbolic, I
guess. I don't know if that answers your question,
Mike.
MR. MORAN: I put myself on mute. Well
enough, I won't belabor the point.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Donald?
MR. SCARINCI: My question is
(inaudible).
REPORTER:

Excuse me, this is the Court

Reporter, Mr. Scarinci, I do need to raise your volume

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level.
MR. SCARINCI: (inaudible).

Is that

better?
CHAIRMAN BROWN:

We can't hear you.

MS. WARREN: Donald, this is Jennifer.
We can't hear you. You're in a tunnel.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: May I suggest that we
pass, and want to make sure that any other members of
the Committee, if they have any technical or legal
questions?
MS. LANNIN: This is Mary Lannin, and I
am on the phone because I have technical problems, but
I also have a question. In Reverse 4A, I noticed when
April was reading about the date that Bessie Coleman
obtained her international pilot's license, she said
August 15th, and the date on this Reverse reads June
15th.

Which is the correct date?

I mean, I'm sure

the Mint will take care of it, but just a question.
MS. COLEMAN: It's June.
MS. LANNIN: It is June.

Thank you

very much.
MS. STAFFORD: Thank you, Mary.

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had that incorrect in my design description, so that
is correct, June 15, 1921.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you April and
thank you Mary. Dennis, you have a point? A
question?
MR. TUCKER: Yes, I just -- thank you,
this is Dennis Tucker. I just wanted to suggest that
maybe Donald could use the chat function to type his
comments rather than speaking, since his microphone
seems to be out of order.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you, Dennis.
And actually, that's an option for all of us should we
have the same technical difficulties. You have a good
point. Joe, you have a follow up?
MR. MENNA: Yeah, if I may, without
monopolizing the Committee's time. This is Joe Menna,
Mr. Chairperson. With this design in question, this
whole series of designs, from this artist, I also want
to note that many of the other designs are very
reflective of some familiar images of Ms. Coleman.
And this artist -- I actually gave this artist a
really hard time -- but the ambition of this, to make

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-- this is one of the more fully original portraits, I
would say.

They're all original, 100 percent.

But

this one, the artist took the great ambition of
completely going in their own emotional vector to
create something that was dramatically different than
the other ones. I'm not lobbying for it, but I just
wanted to note that it is different in that regard,
artistically.
CHAIRMAN BROWN:

Thank you so much,

Joe. Let us begin our consideration. I would like to
remind all of the CCAC members to please try to keep
your comments to five minutes or less, and identify
yourself prior to speaking, which I just did not do.
This is Lawrence Brown, once again, the Chair.
We will be keeping track of time and
I'll indicate when time is up.

I ask that members

wrap up your comments when they are close to their
five minutes. In addition, if any members have
questions or comments on any program, please refrain
from asking them, or discussing it until after you are
recognized, or at the end of the discussion of that
program. And then I will ask if you have additional

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comments.
With that guidance, let us begin with
Robin Salmon.
MS. SALMON:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I

liked a lot of these designs for various reasons. But
my preference is R04A, because of the closeup of the
face, the likeness, the fact that she is looking into
the future. And I also like the lettering style, the
strength of that lettering style and the bars
accenting her name. I like the date of her license
being also on that coin, because that is so important
in her history. And just the overall look of this
particular design is forward thinking. And that would
be my preference. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
Robin. Mary Lannin?
MS. LANNIN: Good morning, Chairman
Brown. I also agree with Robin, what she has said
about R04A.

My only request would be to actually add

a propeller to the plain. It looks like it's missing
in action. And then, my other favorite was -- it's
hard to distinguish between the two -- R05. I like

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the look of determination on her face.

And it's kind

of a combination of looking for the future, and then
thinking internally about what she had to go through
to get that license. So, I guess I won't know until I
vote, but I feel really good about Reverse 5 and
Reverse 4A. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you, Mary.

Dr.

Harcourt Fuller?
DR. FULLER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
It is an honor to be here today and to be able to
review these coins. I myself also like Reverse 4A. I
like the fact that Ms. Coleman is looking toward the
future. And I think, symbolically, you see clouds to
the side, you see that the airplane is flying into the
clouds, but she is still confidently looking into the
future, that she will overcome whatever challenges she
is about to face as a pilot. So, that's one of my
choices.
And then, I also like Reverse 5 as
well, for all the reasons previously stated.

But what

I really like about Reverse 5 is that look of "I'm
here. I belong. I'm here to stay." And it's just

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this confident look that's very inspiring.

Thank you.

CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
Donald Scarinci? Let's then -- Donald, we'll come
back to you. Let's move on then to Mike Moran.
MS. WARREN:

Excuse me, this is

Jennifer Warren. I emailed Donald. Donald, I suggest
you call in on the phone so you can get your audio.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you, Jennifer.
Mike?
MR. MORAN: Thank you, Dr. Brown.

This

is Mike Moran. I want to make a general comment based
on my time on the Committee.

I think, particularly,

it would be useful to the newer members.
We, as a committee, in the 10-plus
years that I've been on it, have struggled, from time
to time, to accommodate the client's wishes. And in
this case, we have a number of sponsors on each of
these designs for the women in quarters.
Starting with the gold medals, we've
learned, particularly, that if the recipient is alive,
still alive, that their wishes really drive the
process of our recommendation. Some cases, we get a

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sponsor organization and they -- we'll just say, make
an inexperienced selection.

I think, in particular,

I'm reminded of the OSS example, that Mary Lannin as
Chair, did a masterful job of redirecting the sponsors
to come up with beautiful medal design there.
You get into the commemorative coins,
and your client here is basically the numismatic
community, plus those that are emotionally attached to
the particular cause or event that we're
commemorating. So, you have a little bit wider
spectrum. And you basically want to get a design or a
set of designs that will sell in the numismatic
community, satisfy the sponsor, and generate the kinds
of surcharges that the sponsor expects to receive from
the sale of the coins. You often see this as a result
to tell the story, pick and choose, particularly when
we have multiple denominations of the half, the silver
dollar and the $5 gold piece, as to what we present,
and it doesn't always jive with what the artists have
submitted for each of those designs.
Perhaps the toughest one is when we're
dealing with a circulating coin. Because here, our

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client really is the citizenry of the United States;
it's not the sponsoring organizations here.

And in

this case, I see this with a, largely, a free hand. I
certainly will respect, and I will take into
consideration, the desires of the sponsors when I make
my recommendation for each of these designs.
But I am going to be driven personally,
and I think the Committee, all of us, should be driven
by three factors:

One, the innovation that is shown

by, within the design; two, of course, the artistry.
And three, the ability to execute that design and, in
this case, a design that goes onto a quarter, which is
very difficult and it's in, basically, what I call
coin relief, or low relief. So, it's maybe two
dimensional, two and a fraction dimensional, in terms
of the design.
So, I just want to put that out for
you, because that comes from ten years of us
struggling as to how we deal with the recommendations
that come into us, and how much weight we place upon
it.
All right, talking about Bessie

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Coleman. I, first of all, looked at her as an
individual. And it comes through very well in the
biography, as well as when you google the website.
She struck me -- there are two dominant traits of her
character that I saw. One, the girl had spunk. You
could knock her down, she's going to get right back up
and be in your face.

And two, flat-out determination.

I originally was drawn to design number
one because of the motion that was shown in it. But
getting back to my comment about execution, design 1,
I mean design 2, sorry -- design 1 is not going to
execute on a quarter.

The negative space, there's not

enough of it there. As Joe pointed

out, it's a three-

quarter figure; it's too small.
Then you get down to 4A, which is
excellent, and shows the character of Bessie. And I
like the fact the pilot's license is there, because
that's a singular event in her life, and how she got
to that point.
And I also feel like, that 5 really
captures the determination of Bessie as a pilot and as
a human being making her way in the 20th Century

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United States.
So, I'm going to split my votes,
actually, between 4A and 5. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you, Mike, for
that fantastic, comprehensive comment, certainly for
us younger members on the CCAC. Before we resume,
let's -- Jennifer?
MS. WARREN: Yes, this is Jennifer
Warren.

I just want to point out, please note that

this time is for the CCAC members to speak. I know
there is someone who keeps raising their hand. We are
only calling on those that are designated liaisons,
because public, meaning the public, does not actually
speak unless invited as a liaison.

So, I just wanted

to point that out. And two, a number jumped on I want
to see, is that Donald Scarinci on the call? I guess
not. Just wanted to make sure. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you, Jennifer.
Let's move to Sam Gill.
MR. GILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I

love this portfolio. I'm a fan of early aviators.

I

was not familiar with Bessie Coleman. I am very, very

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happy that I'm familiar with her now.
I will go right to my choices. I do
really, really like 4A and 5. I think they're both
very, very worthy. And then, I also like Reverse 6,
only because it's very dignified, and it's a very -it's a larger face, and it captures the airplane, but
it does not capture the date, that I can see. So, I'm
going to go back up to 4A, and I think that's going to
be my number one choice, and 5 would be my number two.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you, Sam. Turn
to, now, Dennis Tucker.
MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. And
Ms. Coleman, thank you very much for your wonderful
insight and personal insight that you shared with us.
I think that your personal preference
of 4A is excellent. It's a very strong design for all
of the reasons that you laid out for us.
I also agree with Robin; I like the
typography, I like the use of the wings to the side of
her name, the stylized wings. And this design, to me,
is evocative of the 2021 Tuskegee Airmen National

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Historic Site quarter dollar. And I like to see the
similarities between those two coins. So, 4A has my
strongest support.
Five is also a very strong portrait,
and I would love to see that in a 5-ounce silver
round. I know that the Mint's not doing those. But
very good portfolio and 4A will have my endorsement.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you, Dennis,
really appreciate your comments. Let's turn to Dean.
MR. KOTLOWSKI: Can I just test?

Can

you hear me?
CHAIRMAN BROWN:

Yes.

MAN 1: We can, we can.
MR. KOTLOWSKI:

Awesome.

MAN 1: We're all set then. Thank you.
MR. KOTLOWSKI: Thank you, Mr.
Chairman. I'm going to do something for Ms. Coleman
here.

This is the advantage of being home during

COVID times.

I don't know if you can see this -- I'm

a stamp collector as well as a coin collector -- and
this is a plate block of the Bessie Coleman stamp.
And it will make a very nice contrast and complement

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to go with 4A.
I also like 5. I like 5 because I
really could see her youth, as well as her
determination and determination and perseverance. I
liked 4A. I'm glad that we're looking at 4A. I would
also like to look at number 4.
I actually think I prefer 4 to 4A,
because it is a little bit more pictorial, a little
less verbal; you get a little bit of a larger portrait
of Bessie Coleman. You lose the date of the pilot's
license, and I understand the significance of that
part of her biography.

And I think it's very

important to the family and very important to Bessie
Coleman, perhaps, but I'm not so sure it's as
important to the public. And here, we get a larger
portrait of her. But certainly 4A is an excellent
design. And actually, when you look at 4A, I think I
like the lettering and the way that comes about at the
bottom a little bit better than 4. But 4 is very good
as well.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you, Dean.
Let's turn to Peter.

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MR. VAN ALFEN:

Thank you, Dr. Brown.

I have to say I, like Sam, am a fan of early aviation
and drive my poor wife and daughter to every aviation
museum I possibly can. So, I'm really rather excited
by this portfolio and it's a real pleasure to meet you
virtually, Ms. Coleman.
This really is a fantastic portfolio.
There's a lot of really great and strong designs in
this. I like number 2 for the movement, although I do
have to say, like many of my colleagues here, I do
find 4A to be a preference. There really is something
like Robin said, about the font and the bars or wings
on both sides of her name, and just the strength of
the portrait. I also really quite like number 5 as
well, again, for the strength of the portrait,
although Joe's comments about the coinability of this
figure, at least bring out the portrait of Bessie, is
obviously a concern.
So, I think my preference overall would
be for 4A, although I'd be perfectly happy with 5 as
well. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
Arthur Bernstein?

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MR. BERNSTEIN: Good morning, this is
Art Bernstein. I'd like to compliment design 2. I
particularly like the way Ms. Coleman's eyes seem to
look right at the holder of the coin. And I like the
artistic flair of the long, leather flight jacket,
flight coat.
But I heard Joe Menna's comments about
going with a larger portrait. And, therefore, I'm a
big fan of the Reverses 6 and 6A. I like the feature
of the Chicago skyline. I thought it added a nice
detail. And my number one choice is 6A. It has that
Chicago detail. I liked the swoosh of the flight
stream, if I can call it that.

And it seemed to be

the largest portrait of Ms. Coleman. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
Let's return to Donald.
MR. SCARINCI: Okay, can you hear me
now?
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Yes, we can.
MR. SCARINCI: Okay, great.

Awesome.

So, what I was going to ask, I really do like Reverse
5. But the -- I am concerned, and my question was,
you know, to Joe earlier, like we've got some

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challenges in this design. The hands are always a
challenge, right, to get the hands right. And this
face front image, is another challenge. And the fact
that it's actually the face is so small in the pallet
of the quarter, I could see what's why people are
gravitating towards design 4.

And I'm just curious

and concerned, if we went with 5, what are the odds
that we can really make that work as a small quarter?
Mr. MENNA:

Mr. Chair -- I'm

gravitating to Chairperson, because I was corrected
before, so Mr. Chairperson -- I'm not being glib, this
is Joe Menna. Donald, no offense, I don't want to
offend anybody on the Committee at all. The Committee
has a history where there were former members who
would hammer notions about what we were and were not
able to sculpt. I'm not suggesting you're subscribing
to those admonitions. But the fact is that my staff,
our staff, the Mint's staff -- they're not my staff,
they're my friends -- we can sculpt anything. So,
frontal portraits, of course, are not optional.

In

the entire history of relief, whether it's on a coin,
or whether it's on an Egyptian temple, you know -there's a reason Egyptians didn't have frontal relief

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largely, you're right.

But as relief became more

full, going into Hellenistic sculpture and stuff like
that, you got more frontal reliefs. And so, we can
sculpt anything, to make a long story short. Thank
you.
And the readability of the portrait,
yeah, my rule of thumb is, I should be able to
recognize, if not buy the face, by this position of
the character, the person -- the goggles here, the
whole thing -- you're able to recognize the person
beyond just the portrait and the likeness and the
features of the face. But my rule of thumb is, can I
see it? If I'm holding the coin arm's length, can I
see who it is? If it's on the counter where most
people see their coins, right, can I see who it is?
Because that's going to make me say, "Ooh, look at
that," I'm going to pick it up. And even if it's
almost, God forbid, even if it's on the floor, can I
see who it is, kind of, from that perspective, that
it's going to make me want to just pick it up, as a
lay person, and say, "My goodness, this is the most
beautiful thing I've seen all day. I'm taking it
home." That's how I think we get more coin people in

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our fold.

Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you, Joe.

Donald.
MR. SCARINCI:

I'm wrestling with this

one, because I really like it. You know, I would love
it as a medal.

But you know, and what bothers me

about four is these stripes, you know, next to Bessie.
You know, 4 and 4A -- 4A is really nice. But I don't
-- I'm bothered by those stripes, you know. And I
always hate coin designed by committee, you know, or
else I would almost suggest, you know, a different
font for the Bessie Coleman and eliminating the
stripes. But, you know, I don't want to go there. I
don't believe in it.
So, because of that, I'm more inclined
to go with Reverse 5. So, those are my concerns. I
think it's definitely between, you know, 4, 4A and 5.
I just don't know how everybody else feels about the
lettering in 4, you know, the font that they're using
and the stripes that they're using. But I like the
bigger face, and it still gives you the clouds, which
is what's cool about -- I think the clouds and the
plain is cool, about number 5. It works in number 4,

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except for the font.
And so, I don't know how everybody else
feels about the font, if we can change it or if
there's -- maybe I'm the only one who thinks that way.
Joe?
CHAIRMAN BROWN: My apologies, Donald,
my apologies, totally.

So, I want to be mindful of

the fact of the time in front of us and the work that
we still have. We'll have an opportunity to add any
additional comment, I promise you. But Joe, I think
you have a follow up?
MR. MENNA:

Yes, Dr. Mr. Chairperson,

Dr. and Donald, sorry to belabor this. Donald, number
one, in 4 -- 4 is less desirable.

But going all the

way to the edge, those incuse lines and even the
relief of the portrait would be diminished, because
it's closer to the edge. It's still coinable, that's
why it's included. 4A is a better choice in general.
and the reason 4A, the font went that way, is it's a
contemporaneous font to the subject matter. And then
those lines on the side actually, symbolically,
represent wings flanking each side of the name. So,
there's a deliberate intent for everything that's on

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that.

Everything that's on 4A is very deliberate on

the part of the designer to evoke not only the period,
but also to kind of allude to her being aviatrix as
her granddaughter described. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you, Joe. And
everyone, let's remember that we'll get an opportunity
to hear or see how well we feel about the designs, by
virtue of our vote. That's going to be, in fact, the
telltale sign.
I must confess that when I looked at
the designs, I was overwhelmed by their beauty.

I

sort of liked 1 and 2, because I liked the action, you
know, seeing it active. And so, that's what really
thrilled me.
But I must confess, the design that is
favored by the relative, makes a lot of sense, and
particularly the date that she became a -- in fact,
got her license. And I'm of the mindset that when
citizens see coins, that yes, it becomes somewhat
useful because they look at it as a way to, in fact
purchase goods and services. But at some point,
there's an opportunity to talk about a story. To add
the date about when she received her license,

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represents another opportunity for history to be told.
So, to me, that's one of the reasons why I lean
towards that design.
Let me now pause and move from, in
fact, a commenter, to in fact, ask questions. Are
there any additional comments or motions from members
at this time? I see someone's hand is up. Dr.
Fuller?
DR. FULLER:

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

I

wanted to ask -- a Committee member raised a question
about the propeller on 4A. And I just wanted to ask,
will that be addressed? What do the Committee members
think about the propeller needing to be added? Thank
you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: I think it was raised
initially by Mary. Does anyone else have any comments
about that matter?
MR. VAN ALFEN:

This is Peter Van

Alfen. I think at the scale at which the coin, the
quarter will be, I don't think a spinning propeller or
even a stationary propeller will be terribly visible.
So, I'm not sure if it matters greatly. In this case,
it does seem to be a spinning propeller, at least the

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fact that we can see it.
I also just want to make a brief
comment at Donald's concern about the fonts and the
wings on both sides.

I really quite like that.

I

think Joe's comments about how that's evocative of the
period is absolutely correct.

Even though this is a

few years before the Art Deco period begins, it
certainly is Art Deco-like in presentation. And I
really think it goes well with the overall
presentation of the design. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you. Dennis?
MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Just to answer Dr. Fuller's question, I would say, as
Peter did, that we don't need to add a propeller to
the design.

And also, if you have any children, and

that you've ever taken your kids on an airplane
flight, and the captain or a steward, or a flight
attendant, is kind enough to give them a little pin,
you will see stylized wings like that. So, I think
it's a design element that a lot of people will
recognize and it will make sense within the greater
design, and I think it makes visual sense to the
viewing public. Thank you.

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CHAIRMAN BROWN:

Thank you.

Mike

Moran?
MR. MORAN: Thank you, Dr. Brown.

This

is Mike Moran. You're standing on the ground, looking
up at this plane, from this distance, you won't see
that propeller. It's correct that it's shown and we
should leave it alone.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you. Joe, I see
your hand still up. Do you have follow-up?
MR. MENNA? I'm sorry, Dr. Brown, Mr.
Chairperson. Yeah, another thing, regarding the text,
if you note, it's italicized.

And look at the

direction of the plane. The plane and the text are
actually harmonized intentionally. It's as if the
forward motion of the plane and the slanting of the
letters are synchronous. So, I think that was just a
really cool device that the artist used. Sorry.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN:

Thank you so much,

Joe, really appreciate that. Are there any comments,
or additional comments or clarification from anyone,
CCAC members or Mint staff? Hearing none -- Ms.
Coleman, do you have anything you would like to add,

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based on what you have heard?
MS. COLEMAN: No. I just want to say I
think 4A is beautiful, and also I like 5.

So,

whatever the Committee decides, the family would be
happy.
CHAIRMAN BROWN:

Very good.

Any

further discussion? Hearing none, the Committee will
now score the reverse candidate designs for the 2023
Bessie Coleman quarter. Each of the Committee members
should have received a copy of the score sheet that
was emailed to you for the US Mint.

Please mail,

email or text your scores to Greg Weinman. Greg will
tally your scores and will present the results in a
few minutes.
So, let's take about five minutes of
recess to submit our scores and allow Greg to tally up
the scores, and then provide them back to us.
MR. WEINMAN: Chairman Brown, let's
make it ten minutes. My history with this
demonstrates that ten minutes is probably more
appropriate. But once again, based entirely on how
quickly you all give me your scores.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Understand.

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makes a lot of sense.
MR. WEINMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: We're now in recess.
Ten minutes.
REPORTER: We are off the record.
(RECESS)
MR. WEINMAN: That actually worked out
a little faster than -CHAIRMAN BROWN: Jennifer, do we still
have a quorum?
MR. WEINMAN: How much time do we have
left?
MS. WARREN: Two minutes from 9:56 AM.
MR. WEINMAN: We can wait the two
minutes then. I knew that if I asked for -(RECESS)
REPORTER: We are now back on the
record at 10:08 AM. Mr. Brown?
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much. We
are back.

I recognize Greg Weinman, now counsel to

the CCAC, to present the results from the scoring
sheets.
MR. WEINMAN: Good morning, Dr. Brown.

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As every member was present and scoring, this score is
out of a possible score of 33 points. Reverse number
1 received 5 points; number 2 received 6 points;
number 3 received 6 points; number 4 received 8
points; number 4A received 30 points, and that is the
high scoring design. Design Reverse 5 received 20
points; 5A received 8 points; Reverse 6 received 10
points, and Reverse 6A received 5 points. Once again,
the high scoring design is design Reverse 4A, with 30
points.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
Greg. Well, we don't -MS. WARREN: Dr. Brown, this is
Jennifer, just to reminder to those coming in on the
phone, just mute your phone, please. We will not be
muting your microphone on our end. Just mute it on
your phone. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
Jennifer. And thank you, Greg, again. While we don't
need a motion, I want to make sure we give you a
opportunity for any of the members of the CCAC who
desire to offer a motion.
Hearing, and seeing that there are

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none, and assuming that all discussion has concluded,
I will now call the question.
All those in favor of design 4A, please
signify by saying aye.
GROUP: Aye.
CHAIRMAN

BROWN:

Those

opposed?

It

appears that the motion has passed. Are there any
other further motions?
Ms. Coleman, we really want to thank
you for joining us today. We are especially
appreciative of you for sharing your time and your
efforts in advancing the legacy of a phenomenal
American, and advancing the knowledge of all
Americans, myself included. Because, quite frankly, I
did not hear about Bessie Coleman while I was in grade
school. So, again, thank you for advancing the
knowledge of all Americans about your very courageous
aunt.
MS. COLEMAN: Thank you so much, Mr.
Chairperson. Thank you. It was a honor. I'm so
happy.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: The honor was hours
and I'm sure we can't wait until we see that first

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quarter, that we can, in fact, share with our friends
with pride.
On that basis, we will now return back
to April Stafford, the Chief of Mint's Office of
Design Management, to present the reverse design for
the 2023 Eleanor Roosevelt quarter.
MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. And here's
some background about this great person.
Eleanor Roosevelt is well known as a
first lady, author, reformer and leader. Appointed by
President Truman to the United Nations General
Assembly, Roosevelt served as a chairperson of the
Human Rights Commission, where she oversaw the
creation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
During this time, she advocated
diligently for the civil liberties and needs of the
poor, minorities and the disadvantaged. Roosevelt was
reappointed to the United Nations Delegation by
President Kennedy, and served as the Chair for the
President's Commission on the Status of Women.
Her myriad of accomplishments,
including her syndicated column My Day that ran from

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1935 to 1962 and the leadership role she played in
promoting humanitarian efforts continue to inspire and
motivate today. In addition to the National Women's
History Museum reviewers that I mentioned earlier, the
Smithsonian expert reviewing this portfolio includes
Lisa Kathleen Grady, who is Curator of Women's
Political History at the Smithsonian's National Museum
of American History.
We are also very fortunate to have
family members with us today, grandchildren of Eleanor
Roosevelt, and they include Christopher D. Roosevelt
and also I've been told possibly Nancy Roosevelt
Ireland will be with us.

Mr. Roosevelt, would you

like to say a few words to the Committee?
MR. ROOSEVELT: Thank you very much. I
would.

Member of the Committee and Dr. Brown, thank

you for inviting us to participate in this session.
And I dare say that our grandmother is definitely
somebody that you learned about in all levels of
school in a number of circumstances since then.

She

was known not only as First Lady of the United States,
but really first lady of the world.

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CHAIRMAN BROWN: Sir, by mistake you
are back on mute. Or back on. Okay. Thank you.
MR. ROOSEVELT:

Sorry about that.

There have been members -- three grandchildren of
Eleanor and Franklin Roosevelt who have worked with
Pam Borer and her staff on the lead-up to this
meeting, and I'd just like to give special thanks to
Pam and her staff for her -- for their patience and
understanding and gentleness in dealing with a group
of very, very independent people as members of a
family often tend to be.
E.R., as the public sometimes knew her,
we knew her as Grandmother, and strangely we would
call her by the French name Grand-mere, was an
absolutely wonderful grandmother to us.

And we

probably knew her better as Grandmother than we knew
her as First Lady or First Lady of the world.

She had

a closet full of presents for every single grandchild
that she had, something over 25 grandchildren, and
there was a present in that closet for each one of us.
And if we were around at the holidays, she took great
pleasure in her choice in having selected one for us.

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She was an extraordinary person to us,
and I think, I'm guessing, that every single
grandchild has a very special, unique, individual
memory of her. My partners in this effort are her
namesake Anna Eleanor Roosevelt, who is presently in
the Netherlands for the international presentation of
the FDR For Freedoms Award of the Roosevelt Institute
and regrets that she cannot join us. My sister Nancy
Roosevelt Ireland is the successor literary executor
of both Eleanor and Franklin Roosevelt, and I hope
Nancy is on this call. I've looked for her and can't
find her, but if she is, I hope she will feel free to
chime in and add any additional comments she would
like.
MS. ROOSEVELT-IRELAND: Don't worry,
Chris. I will.
MR. ROOSEVELT: Thank you, Nancy. I
had a feeling that that might be the case.
I think we're all very appreciative of
the process and particularly appreciate the family
being asked to participate in this important process.
Like herding cats, oftentimes when dealing with family

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members, it's hard to get the unanimity.

But I think

I am accurate in stating that we have worked with Pam
and her staff on the designs that were presented, and
we have basically unified on reverse 02A as our
favorite largely because it does have the longitude
and latitude of the world.
Importantly for us and our recollection
of our grandmother, it has the scales of justice or
equality. She was probably one of the most important
leaders of early, early, early civil rights efforts
and recognizing underserved communities

in

society, both at home and across the world.

our
And it

has a -- what we believe is the best personal likeness
of her face and how she would dress.
We have also looked at 01A, which we
liked the design very much, but we believe that the
likeness of her face probably needs some improving.
Maybe a hard look at how it might more track 02A,
which was our favorite. And then our third was 06.
Again, the likeness is better, but still probably
needs a little improvement.
But most importantly, I think we

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appreciate the opportunity to offer our suggestions
and our favorites to this committee. And we thank the
CCAC for its efforts.

We are honored to participate.

We are appreciative of the opportunity to have Eleanor
Roosevelt on a quarter, and we wish you well in your
discussions and deliberations. And of course if Nancy
or I can add anything to the discussion, if you have
any questions, please do not hesitate to call on us.
Thank you very much.
MS. STAFFORD:

Thank you so much.

And

it was -- thank you also for your kind words about Pam
Borer's work. Yes, the design managers for these
portfolios have worked a long time to bring these to
fruition and have had a lot of help from a lot of
fabulous mint experts and artists.

Boneza Hanchock

was instrumental in the previous portfolio that this
committee reviewed for Bessie Coleman, and as you
noted Pam for this portfolio on Eleanor Roosevelt.
So before we go to the individual
candidate design, I will share that all designs
honoring Eleanor Roosevelt of course include her
depiction and commemorate her work specifically with

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Universal Declaration of Human Rights. So we'll start
with Reverse 1, and we also have Reverse 1A.

They

both depict Roosevelt speaking at a microphone from
the papers in her hand. 1A includes the additional
inscription The Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Reverse 2A portray Roosevelt and the
scales of justice against a backdrop representing the
globe and symbolizing her work on the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights. The additional
inscription is Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
This again is the family's preference. And I should
note that the reviewers at the National Women's
History Museum also concur with this preference.
And then finally, Reverse 6 depicts
Roosevelt seated at a desk in front of papers and a
microphone.

The additional inscription is the

Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

This design

the Smithsonian reviewer preferred because it conveys
her thoughtfulness at U.N. meetings, and she felt that
the inscription reads very clearly here.
Specifically, the Universal Declaration of Human
Rights.

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And Dr. Brown, that concludes the
candidate designs for this portfolio.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
April.
And thank you, Mr. Roosevelt. And by
the way, that's the first time I've heard that phrase
herding cats outside, in fact, a conversation about
meetings of physicians. I thought we had monopoly on
that, and I'm sure we will hear your sister because I
do understand about sibling conversations and
engagements. So we look forward to that.

So again,

Joe and like, do you have anything to share with the
Committee on the designs for this coin?
MR. COSTELLO: No, Dr. Brown. This is
Mike. All four designs are coinable, so therefore I
don't have any comments.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: And Joe, yourself?
MR. MENNA: This is Joe Menna. Dr.
Brown, Mr. Chairperson, selfishly I have to say one of
the greatest honors of my career as U.S. Mint artist
was to design and sculpt the FDR Presidential Dollar
and the gold spouse coin that we did in tandem with

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that was beautifully sculpted by Phebe Hemphill.

And

I think we have an opportunity to build on that legacy
by the selection of this coin.
3A has, in my opinion, as the family
feels, the stakeholder -- excuse me, the portrait is
absolutely -- this might be the best representation of
Eleanor Roosevelt, Mrs. Roosevelt, that we've ever
presented on a United States Mint coin. The symbol -the artistic symbolism of her not only being a First
Lady of the world -- of the United States, but of the
world. It's represented by her global efforts behind
her symbolically. Her passion for justice is
represented by the scales to her -- to the left side
of the coin.
The -- we were able to fit in -- the
designer was able to fit in the Universal Declaration
of Human Rights late in the design and still make it a
magnificent composition. It's a -- this is one of the
most senior master designers of -- this is maybe one
of the best coin designers without naming names in my
opinion in the past 50 years. And I think it's an
outstanding choice.

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Any challenges that were faced for the
portraits and the other coins, as the family members
mentioned, are not a deficiency on the part of the
artist.

The challenge is capturing the majesty of

this particular American, our profound -- and all of
our artists are more than capable of doing fantastic
portraits.

There's just -- there's a special quality

to the First Lady that is -- I would say is intangible
and not just physical.

And this is the best design

that captures that artistically in my opinion. Thank
you. I'm not lobbying to be picked. I'm just talking
about from the art perspective.
MS. STAFFORD: Thank you, Joe. This is
April.

I just want to add for the record, I -- unless

I misheard, Joe was referring to Design 2A.

I think

he may have spoke and said 3A. So -MR. MENNA: Yes.
MS. STAFFORD:
CHAIRMAN BROWN:
much.

Yes, yes, yes.
Thank you so much, Joe.
Thank you both so

Now turning to the Committee, from the

Committee members, are there any technical or legal
questions from the Committee about the program or the

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designs of the 2023 Eleanor Roosevelt Quarter before
we begin our general discussion?
MR. BERNSTEIN: Dr. Brown, I had a
technical question. This is Art Bernstein.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Please proceed.

Thank

you.
MR. BERNSTEIN: I was just curious.
Two of the coin designs have the word "The" in front
of Universal Declaration of Human Rights and one does
not, and I was wondering why there was a difference,
and if one is correct and one is not.
MS. STAFFORD: So let me call upon the
design manager Pam Borer.
Pam, I believe that the answer is no,
it's a -- simply a style preference for the artist.
Do you have any particular insight into that? And I
also see Mr. Roosevelt's hand is up. So Pam, if you
don't have anything, I'll go to him.
MS. BORER: Yeah, I don't have anything
to add. I would defer to Mr. Roosevelt.
MS. STAFFORD: Mr. Roosevelt?
MR. ROOSEVELT: Hi.

I appreciate the

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question, and obviously across this country we run
into the question of "the" being added to a title
frequently. I think it's a great question.

I would

only offer that universally, the Universal Declaration
of Human Rights is referred to UDHR. Now, of course
that leaves out the word "of".
So I think it's really an open
question, and if you have legal research that might
indicate that it is properly title The Universal
Declaration of Human Rights, that addition would be in
no way objectionable to the family.

But I refer back

to UDHR as how it's referred to without "of" and
without "the". Thanks for the question.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Are there any other
questions from members of the Committee pertaining to
technical or legal issues? Hearing none, let us begin
our consideration.

I would like to remind members

again to please try to keep your comments to five
minutes or less and identify yourself prior to
speaking. We'll be keeping track of time, and I will
indicate when time is up as diplomatically as I can.
I ask that members please wrap up your comments when

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we are close to their five minutes.
Additionally, if any members have
questions or comments on the program, please refrain
from asking them or discussing until you are
recognized or at the end of this discussion of this
program when I will ask you are there additional
comments. Let us begin with Sam Gill.
MR. GILL: Thank you, Dr. Brown. Well,
it's indeed an honor to work on anything with Eleanor
Roosevelt.

And it's just a -- hugely impressed with

all of her work throughout her entire life. And she
impacted this country and the world probably more or
as much as any woman has ever done. So this is an
entirely appropriate honor.

Mr. Roosevelt, his

comments today were extremely helpful and very, very
interesting to hear. It's just a marvelous legacy for
that family.
I'm going to certainly echo that 2A is
the right one for this. It encompasses virtually
everything that has to do with this Universal
Declaration of Human Rights.

It's got the world

there. And I like the fact that she's wearing a hat

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because it says to me she's on the move, she -- as she
always was on the move doing something doing good
work. So 2A is the choice for me.
But I do want to commend Number 6
because I just think that's a really sweet portrait of
her. Maybe the 2A is a better one, but I like the
Number 6 and the thoughtful look that she has there.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
REPORTER: Mr. Chairman, you're on
mute.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: My apologies.

I was

trying to spare you all.
REPORTER: Yeah. Could the last
speaker please identify themselves?
MR. GILL:

Yes.

This is Sam Gill.

REPORTER:

Thank you.

CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you. Let's move
onto Mary Lannin.
MS. LANNIN: Can you hear me?
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Yes, ma'am.
MS. LANNIN: Okay. Great. I would
like to echo everything that Sam said. 2A was my

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absolute favorite. That is -- in my mind's eye, that
is how I picture Eleanor Roosevelt. And I agree with
Sam on Number 6, that the thoughtfulness.

Think of

all the works that she has done in her life and is
reflecting on that.

But I will go with what the

family feels and what I feel is I'm going to put all
my votes behind 2A. Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you. Now
turning to Donald Scarinci.
MR. SCARINCI: So, yeah.

First of all,

on the coin, 2A was absolutely my pick too, Joe. Nice
design. You know, and I don't have any fear about the
teeth because you would've normally heard from me
about the teeth. But you got this, and you know, I
really think it captures Eleanor Roosevelt. And to -you know, and to Christopher and Nancy, I have to tell
you I have had the pleasure of actually interacting
with the Roosevelts, with Eleanor and Franklin.

I

teach constitutional law to lawyers in three states,
and I use actors to play the various parts of figures
when I'm illustrating points of constitutional law.
And I did a -- I do a very popular

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sell-out seminar with Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt.
So we actually did some filming at Eleanor Roosevelt's
house in New York City, which I live about a block
away from.

So it's very cool.

Very -- it's an honor

to meet both of you today. And I love your choice of
coin. Your taste in coins is impeccable.
MS. ROOSEVELT-IRELAND: Well, thank you
very much.

That's nice to hear, and your course

sounds great.
MR. SCARINCI: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
Moving along to Mike Moran.
MR. MORAN: Thank you, Dr. Brown. As a
Trustee and Secretary of the Theodore Roosevelt
Association, the other side of the family, I often
have to pick up books and read them just to stay on
top of my game. The one I just finished was a dual
biography of Alice Roosevelt Longworth and Eleanor
Roosevelt.

And for those of you who don't know, the

two of you were antagonists through a good part of
their lives.
And I'm sure the family representatives

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here are going, oh, no, he's not going to go there
today. You're right. I'm not. However, I came away
from -- the one thing I came away from that book
knowing a lot of the story of Alice was a profound
respect for Eleanor Roosevelt.

There's no question

she was a trailblazer as First Lady in the White
House.

But she soared once she got out from

underneath the shadow of the White House. And on the
world stage, she was spectacular.
I was one of the reviewers of the
reverse for her spouse coin, and Joe may like the
sculpts that he got.

I didn't like the package.

I

felt it was lacking, that it did not really present
her, reflect her as I felt she deserved on that coin.
And what I thought about particularly when I looked at
this package was the reason why it didn't was she just
simply cast a shadow that was too big and too complex
to capture on a two-dimensional disk, metallic disk
the size of either a $10 gold piece or in this case a
quarter.
But when I looked at these designs, I
was dead wrong. There's no question it's 2A. It

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would be insulting if we did anything other than 2A.
It's superb in its design to capture the essence of a
woman whose perspective was as broad as this world.
So I'm all over 2A, and I'm really all over Eleanor
Roosevelt as a fine woman. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you, Mike.
Moving onto Robin Salmon.
MS. SALMON:

This is Robin Salmon.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I was drawn instantly to 2A
because of the design. To me, that image of Eleanor
Roosevelt is the First Lady of the world. And I also
like the lettering on this particular design, the way
her name stands out from the other lettering and all
of the symbolism that's already been discussed.
On a personal note, my mother worked in
Washington during World War II and often found herself
in an elevator with the First Lady. And she loved to
tell the story of how kind she was and, you know, here
-- my mother being nobody was so impressed by her
warmth and generosity.

And she saw her on more than

one occasion, and Mrs. Roosevelt would even remember
her name every time.

And my mother just loved to tell

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that story. So, that's neither here nor there, but I
wanted the family to know. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Outstanding.

Next up

is Dennis Tucker.
MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. And
thank you to Mr. Roosevelt and Mrs. Ireland. We
appreciate your input of course. I think 2A is
wonderful for all of the reasons that have been laid
out here.

It's a charming portrait.

I think it's --

it makes a wonderful companion to the 2014 $10 gold
coin, which shows a slightly younger portrait of
Eleanor Roosevelt. Of course this shows her after her
time in the White House.
And you know, I was wondering when this
program first started, this coinage program, whether
any first ladies would make their way into the
program. And I was very happy to see that Eleanor
Roosevelt did, because if any first lady deserves to
be in this program, it's her. And above and beyond
that, she deserves to be on this U.S. quarter dollar
for the work that she continued to do beyond the White
House. So I think she's a very appropriate subject,

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and 2A is a wonderful design.
I will just mention a few things that
haven't been mentioned yet.

The small details that

the designer has put into this coin, the lower case
"of" in United States of America I think is a nice
artistic flourish. The use of the stars to left and
right to separate different elements of lettering is a
nice touch, and we don't see that in all of the
designs in the different portfolios that we're
studying today.
As for the absence of the definite
article "the" in Universal Declaration of Human
Rights, I think that's fine as an artistic -- a bit of
artistic license.

And it certainly is well-balanced

the way we have it without the word "the".
If I have any time left, I would like
to give it to Nancy Roosevelt-Ireland. She did not
speak earlier, and this might be an opportunity for
her to do so if she would like to. Thank you all.
MS. BORER:

Dr. Brown, this is Pam

Borer if I might just add that we know that the United
Nations used UDHR both with and without the "the", so

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it appears to be very appropriate with the "the" as
well.
CHAIRMAN BROWN:

Thank you so much.

And -MS. BORER: Mm-hmm.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: -- based on the fact
-- the gallant approach by Dennis, Ms. Roosevelt, we'd
like to give you an opportunity to in fact offer any
comments that you would like to at this time.

Because

I think it's certainly reasonable, and I'm kind of
surprised you didn't because my sister certainly would
have.
MS. ROOSEVELT-IRELAND: Well, the good
news is that my brother Chris and I agree on most
things, particularly this. And I -- but I do want to
say from myself something he said, which is that we
really appreciate this process and being included in
it.

And it is just from a civilian bystander, it's

been fascinating to see how this works.

And Pam has

led us very well, and I think of how many families she
must be shepherding.

But we appreciate working with

her and Jennifer and seeing this process and hearing

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from all of you.

So thank you very much.

CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much for
your comments. Now let's turn to Dennis.

I'm sorry, not

Dennis, Dean.
MR. KOTLOWSKI:

Thank you very much,

Mr. Chairman. This is Dean Kotlowski. I saw that Joe
Menna had his hand up.

If Joe wanted to say anything

at this point, I would delay my comments.
MR. MENNA: It's more of an anecdotal
thing in relation with what the family just said. I
think it's not a happy coincidence that so often the
best designs are in alignment with the stakeholder or
family's wishes. I think that speaks to the effort
that the Mint works hand-in-hand with the family
members to come up with the best designs. And if you
were to do an inventory, I think you would find time
and time again that there usually are a voice. So I
think that's a testament to the work of April and her
team. Thank you.
MR. KOTLOWSKI:

And again --

CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
MR. KOTLOWSKI: -- court reporter, this

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is Dean Kotlowski speaking. And my choice is for 2A
for all of the reasons that have been stated. I do
appreciate what Sam said about the hat. It's got
wonderful balance, a great portrait. A very warm
portrait, very warm and friendly depiction of Eleanor
Roosevelt.
I would like to use the balance of my
time to share my personal thoughts and connections
with the Roosevelts and Franklin Roosevelt. I teach a
course at Salisbury University on America in the
1930s.

And for the members of the family, I did a

book about Paul McNutt, the governor of Indiana who
was a rival and a subordinate of Roosevelt's.

And

some of the reviewers remarked it was very much like a
dual portrait.
I've also done some writing about the
Roosevelts in film. So my intellectual life is
heavily engaged with the Roosevelts, the Franklin
Roosevelt era. And I also would like to thank the
Franklin D. Roosevelt Library and members of the
family for their encouragement.
Now, I have met Mary Roosevelt, who is

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the widow, the last wife of James Roosevelt, the
oldest son of Eleanor and Franklin Roosevelt.
And Mr. Roosevelt and Ms. Ireland, I
met a man at the Franklin D. Roosevelt Library a man
who I believe would be your elder first cousin Curtis
Roosevelt, the late Curtis Roosevelt, the oldest
grandson of Eleanor and Franklin Roosevelt. Very
approachable person, as you both seem to be.

He was

at the desk at the FDR Library, and I was told I could
go up and talk to him.
And I shook his hand, and I said to
him, my grandfather loved your grandfather. And I
share that story with my students at Salisbury
University, and they really, really like it.
And the last thing I'm going to say in
my comments, I don't know if legally I'm supposed to
be doing this, sharing artifacts with you all, but I
am, again, a stamp collector. And I don't know if you
can see this. I got this -MS. ROOSEVELT-IRELAND: That's FDR.
MR. KOTLOWSKI: Yeah. I have a
collection of stamps called -- a compilation called

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U.S. Presidents on International Stamps, and these are
stamps that were issued by countries of Eleanor
Roosevelt -MS. ROOSEVELT-IRELAND: Hmm.
MR. KOTLOWSKI: -- from 1963, a year
after her death and coincidentally the 15th
anniversary of the U.N. Declaration on Human Rights.
And you can see up here how times have changed. This
is a stamp from Iran -MS. ROOSEVELT-IRELAND: Mm-hmm.
MR. KOTLOWSKI: -- of Eleanor
Roosevelt. So a little bit of philately here on a
Tuesday morning. Thank you very much.
MAN 1: No legal objection at all.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Well, outstanding
comments. Dean, thank you so much. Turning now to
Peter.
MR. VAN ALFEN: Thank you, Dr. Brown.
This is Peter Van Alfen.

I just want to preface this

by saying that the Roosevelt homes in Hyde Park is one
of my favorite places to visit, particularly on the
eve of presidential elections. It's something of a

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pilgrimage site for me. So I've spent a great deal of
time up there, really enjoy the place, and I'm really
thrilled to be participating in this meeting today,
particularly with family members.
And I have to agree with my colleagues
and the family as well that 2A is a preferred choice
and certainly my preferred choice. I think it's a
wonderful design. I love the fonts that "Eleanor
Roosevelt" is written in. The portrait I think is
fantastic, and I really think that the globe, the
lattice work of the longitude and latitudes really
works well in this design.

And so I'm happy to

support this particular design. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you, Peter.
Art?
MR. BERNSTEIN: Hello.
Bernstein.

This is Art

All of my compliments for Design 02A have

already been said, so I'll just say that I concur.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN:

Thank you.

Dr.

Fuller?
DR. FULLER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Welcome to the family. It's an honor to be on this
committee discussing this very important coin with
you. First, let me say that certainly as someone who
has studied international studies at the City College
of New York and the history of international relations
and international history at the London School of
Economics, you know you have to study the history of
human right, Eleanor Roosevelt.
I mean, all of that is important to
students who study

international

studies,

international relations, and things of that nature.
And certainly as a scholar today, I have to include
information about this very important period in world
history. What I really, really like about the coin,
therefore, is how international it is. And of course,
this has already been said, I'm very happy that Dean
has pointed out that, you know, that Mrs. Roosevelt
has been represented on stamps and, you know, in other
countries and things of that nature.
So I think that, you know, this coin
really allows an educator to use it to educate. You
know, if you had this coin in a classroom and you gave

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it to a student, the information that's on it would
allow it to become a conversation piece.

You know,

what does the globe mean? What does -- you know, what
do the scales of justice mean, the Declaration -- the
Universal Declaration of Human Rights. All of that
allows it to be used as an object of teaching.
The one thing I would ask is whether or
not the actual date for the Universal Declaration of
Human Rights should be included, and that's a question
that I pose to the Committee. Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much, Dr.
Fuller. Really appreciate that.
And I want to just say to the family
and to my members of -- my colleagues on the Committee
that what my colleagues shared with you, I do not
believe I have the skill or the experience to do
anything better than what they have said.
But I also want to share with you a
story that I feel really touches me.

Because the

first dime that I had in my possession as a child was
a Roosevelt dime. And to me -- but to think about the
full circle by someone from the community that I was

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raised in would have not only the dime but the
opportunity to actually be on the CCAC, and even more
so icing on the cake, to hear from family members of
this beloved president.
So, I want you to know that I really
take this as one of the, in fact, parts of my bucket
list to say that something that was really something
that I can share with my family. So thank you for
that opportunity.
So now I'm going to return back to my
job as CCAC Chair and ask any of my colleagues if
there are any additional comments or motions from any
of the CCAC members at this time. I'll now turn to
members of the Mint, Joe Menna, Mike, April, Michele,
or the other Mint staff. Do you have any additional
comments or clarifications?
MS. WARREN: Dr. Brown, this is
Jennifer Warren. Mike Moran did raise his hand.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: My apologies, Mike.
Please forgive me.
MR. MORAN: Dr. Brown, after listening
to --

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CHAIRMAN BROWN:

(inaudible).

MR. MORAN: -- after listening to
everybody's comments, I'd like to make the motion that
we unanimously select Design 2A and move on.
CHAIRMAN BROWN:

Do I have a second?

MR. KOTLOWSKI: Second, Dean Kotlowski.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Hearing a second, all
those in favor say aye.
MEMBERS: Aye.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Anyone opposed? Any
further discussion? Hearing none, but Joe, I want to
recognize your hand because you had your hand up. Did
you have anything else you want the Committee to
consider or hear?
MR. MENNA: This is Joe Menna.

Dr.

Brown, I was just going to honor Dr. Fuller's comment
and the addition of the date would throw the balance
off, the design of the coin, the Universal -- the text
at the bottom kind of completes the circle. Any other
messing around with it by putting it on top of the
globe would ruin that too. So while Dr. Fuller has -it's -- in terms of the narrative it's a great idea,

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but visually it won't work. So I just want to show
respect to the doctor and offer that comment. Thank
you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN:

Thank you so much,

Joe. We'll take that as a point of information for
members of the Committee.

At this point, I see hands

up from Mr. Roosevelt and I also see it from Jennifer.
MR. ROOSEVELT: Dr. Brown, Chris
Roosevelt again.

And I just wanted to again express

our appreciation. And before you leave the subject of
this particular quarter design for Eleanor Roosevelt,
one of her favorite people in all the world, both
presidential candidate and United Nations Ambassador
was Adlai Stevenson. And upon the occasion of the
completion of the Eleanor Roosevelt wings at the
Franklin D. Roosevelt Library, a coin was issued and
all of us who have a copy of it think it's one of the
more beautiful coins.
And I'd just like to read the
inscription on it that was attributed to Adlai
Stevenson, which I think encapsulates exactly what we
all feel and what the world feels about somebody who,

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yes, by luck of the draw was our grandmother.

But

more importantly, she really was the First Lady to all
of us. And the quote reads, "She would rather light a
candle than curse the darkness and her glow has warmed
the world." Thanks for listening.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
Jennifer?
MS. WARREN: Hi, Dr. Brown.

I just

wanted to suggest to CCAC members to -- it -- when you
get a chance on the break, just to still send in your
score sheets if you have some merits and other things
just so we have that for the artists. So -CHAIRMAN BROWN: Exactly.
MS. WARREN: -- just to clarify that.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you. Yeah,
thank you.
MS. WARREN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Yeah, you don't need a
score. Just merit is fine.
MS. WARREN: Yeah. And that doesn't
need to be -- we don't need to take a break for it,
but whenever you guys get a chance. Thank you.

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CHAIRMAN BROWN:

Mm-hmm.

Outstanding.

At this point, each of the committee members should
have received a copy of a scoresheet in the package
that was emailed to you. Please email or text your
scores to Greg Weinman. Greg will then tally the
scores and will present the results in ten minutes.
MS. WARREN: Dr. Brown -CHAIRMAN BROWN: We will take -MS. WARREN: -- this is Jennifer.

You

-- we don't have to since you guys just unanimously
accepted the design.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Exactly.

My

apologies.
MS. WARREN: But -- so -- but you have
the scoresheets. And again, when you get a chance, we can
just send those in later for the merit, but we can move
onto the next one.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Okay.

Outstanding.

Isn't it great to have such great talent at the U.S.
Mint? Outstanding.

Okay.

Let's move on.

Well, let

me just say how much -- finally to the Roosevelts, I
really want to thank you, Ms. Roosevelt-Ireland and

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Mr. Roosevelt, for sharing your time and efforts in
advancing the legacy of a dedicated American, and
advancing the knowledge of all Americans about your
grandmother.
We are truly appreciative of the time
that you've taken out to do so.

And please -- in

fact, I'm going to look forward to this being a coin
that I'm going to treasure among those that I collect
as a modern coin collector.
MS. ROOSEVELT-IRELAND: Thank you.
I may say one thing.
everyone.

If

This invitation goes to

The FDR Library in Hyde Park, New York

would love to see you. And you just send me an email.
I'm the Chair of the Trustees. We would welcome you,
any of you, with open arms, especially those of you
who might've met her and have wonderful stories
connecting you with Eleanor.
MR. ROOSEVELT: And on behalf of the
family, thank you so much for offering us this
opportunity to speak with you, and we wish you well in
all your efforts. Thank you, Dr. Brown, and all the
members of the CCAC.

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CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you both, and
have a great remainder of this phenomenal day.
We now will return to April, Chief of
the Mints Office of Design Management, to present the
reverse designs for the 2023 Jovita Idar Quarter.
Jovita Idar Quarter.
MS. STAFFORD: Thank you so much.
Okay.

A little background on Jovita Idar.

Jovita

Idar was a Mexican-American journalist, activist,
teacher, and suffragist. She devoted her life to
fighting against segregation and injustice. Idar's
ideas and practices were ahead of her time. She made
it her mission to pursue civil rights for MexicanAmericans and believed education was the foundation
for a better future.
Idar wrote many news articles in
various publications about racism, the Mexican
Revolution, school segregation, poverty, and to
improve the educational, social, and economic
conditions of Mexican Tejanos. Throughout her life,
Idar remained on the front lines of change and refused
to be silenced by a world that reviled who she was.

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In addition to the National Women's
History Museum reviewers that we had review this
portfolio that I mentioned to this committee earlier,
we have the following Smithsonian scholars who
reviewed the designs that you will be considering
today. We have Dr. Tey Marianna Nunn, Director of the
American Women's History Initiative and an awardwinning author and museum curator, as well as Dr.
Diana Turnbow. She's with the Smithsonian American
Women's History Initiative.
So we also have family representatives
with us today.

They include Elizabeth Lopez and

Martha Aki. Ms. Lopez and Ms. Aki, would you like to
say a few words to the committee? Ms. Lopez or Ms.
Aki, are you with us?
They might be having a little bit of
trouble coming off of mute.
MS. AKI: I'm on.

Liz, are you on?

MS. LOPEZ: I'm on -- off mute and I
don't know what else. Go ahead and get started. I'll
just go ahead and get started. Let me start over. I
want to say what an honor this is to our family. It's

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been an amazing process and hard to believe that we've
been at it for a year.
I want to especially thank Ms. Boneza
Hanchock for all her diligence in working with us and
clarifying and explaining all that needed to be done
to reach this point.

And to April Stafford and her

work with us, her enthusiasm in being sure we had what
we needed.

It is an honor and privilege to speaking

to this coinage committee.
Jovita Idar has been a prominent
historical figure in the state of Texas for some time,
and a very, very important figure in our family. My
grandmother Evita was Jovita Idar's only sister who
died in childbirth leaving two girls, Evangeline,
three years old, and Jovita, one year old, her
namesake. Jovita Idar basically raised these two
sisters and cared and nurtured them until she died.
Jovita, when she married, became Jovita
Lopez and Evangeline became Evangeline (inaudible).
Martha Aki, who is also on this call, she and I are
daughters of Jovita Lopez. We have two other
brothers.

And the children of Evangeline are five.

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Jovita Idar has been a critical figure in our family
from the dawn of time, I think, who made a strong
impact on our mothers, which therefore impacted us.
During this process, it has been odd to
refer to her always as Jovita Idar because we have
always known her as Tia Jovita, Tia being Spanish for
aunt. As stated in the intro, she was an exceptional
Mexican-American journalist, activist, educator,
teacher, suffragist, leader, a defender of women's
rights, progressive in her thoughts, community, and
political action.

Importance of family was critical

to her, and she was a staunch member of the Methodist
Church.
These attributes have lived and
continue to live and shape our family.

Journalist,

activist, suffragist are the qualifiers that give
meaning to who she was and what she has been. Her
commitment to an advocacy for organizing women leaders
in all aspects of justice and service was rooted in
her deep respect for the gifted women leaders she grew
up with in her family and her church, something which
has shaped our family through the years. Because of

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this, her words, educate a woman and you educate a
family, became words that identified her and all who
knew her.
MS. AKI: Our family was thoroughly
impressed with every masterpiece submitted by the
artists. Their ability to represent the life of
Jovita Idar in both contemporary and traditional
designs made our selections difficult. However, the
family of Jovita Idar have chosen the reverse
candidate designs JIR01 and 02 for very specific
reasons as the -- as well as the simplicity of their
design.
Our selected masterpiece design of
Jovita Idar in JIR01 is from an iconic portrait from
which our family's memories reside, and which was
displayed in our homes. This portrait and masterpiece
represents her courage, strength, and a pensive desire
for her vision of equality amongst people. Her
statement of educate a woman and you educate a family
is a reminder of what our mothers ingrained in our
lives as Idar descendants, and one in which our
families live by. The artist captures our Tia Jovita

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masterfully.
The masterpiece rendition of Jovita
Idar in JIR02 is from the same portrait used in 01.
This portrait has been used in the seventh grade Texas
history curriculum since 1990. This portrait was
actually used on the front and back covers of the
junior high school Texas history books over the years
and continues to be used.
Students in Texas were taught about her
activism for all people in regards to education,
women's rights, and the rights of the least, the last,
and the lost. We would only hope that students taught
in Texas who now live over our entire country will
recognize her per this masterpiece design on the
upcoming 2023 American Women's Quarters series.
As states in a New York Times article
in August of 2020, Jovita Idar will no longer be
overlooked. The family wishes to thank the designers,
the committee, and all the representatives that have
guided our family in this process. This has been an
honor, and we anxiously await your determination.
REPORTER: Ms. Aki, could you state

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your name for the record after your comment, please.
MS. AKI: My name is Martha Lopez Aki.
REPORTER: Thank you.
MS. STAFFORD: Thank you, Ms. Aki.
Thank you both so much, Ms. Lopez and Ms. Aki.
All right. So we will go through the
designs that you will be considering today. All
designs honoring Jovita Idar represent her depiction
and various elements, of course noting her
accomplishments. So we'll start with Reverses 1, 2,
and 5. These are all variations of the same design.
Additional inscriptions across them include, "Educate
a woman and you educate a family," and "Journalist,
activist, suffragist".
So we'll go back to Reverse 1 and
Reverse 2. These two designs, again, are the family's
preferred designs, as well as the preferences of
reviewers at the Smithsonian and the National Women's
History Museum.

I will add, though, that most of

those reviewers actually preferred Reverse 2 slightly
over Reverse 1 because of the additional elements,
including the newspaper with the Spanish title La

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Cronica and the inscriptions that name Jovita Idar's
accomplishments. They felt that these additional
elements extend her story. And then of course back to
Reverse 5.
All right. Jumping to Reverse 4, this
design depicts Idar holding a copy of La Cronica. She
wrote for it under several pseudonyms, including
Asteria, the Greek Goddess of Justice. The scales
behind Idar are not only a nod to her pen name, but
also represent how she fought tirelessly for justice
for Mexican-Americans, voting rights for women, and
for the right to a good education for the children of
her community.
Reverses 6 and 6A depict Idar holding a
newspaper while wearing the symbol of Asteria on her
necklace. Reverse 6 seen here has the additional
inscription, "When you educate a woman, you educate a
family," while 6A has " Cuando educas a una mujer,
educas a una familia" the same inscription in Spanish.
Reverse 7 depicts a floral pattern
inspired by traditional Mexican embroidery and a
dahlia, the national flower of Mexico, as a nod to her

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heritage. Additional inscriptions include
"Journalist, Teacher, Activist, Nurse" radiating
around her to convey her immense energy.
Reverses 8 and 8A depict Idar with her
hands clasped. Within the body, there is text that
represents the newspapers she wrote for and the great
accomplishments in her life along with required
inscriptions. So here again, you have Reverse 8 and
8A.
Reverse 9 depicts Idar as she stands
strongly with her arms crossed in front of her holding
a newspaper, her weapon in fighting social injustice,
racial inequality, and to battle for the rights of
Mexican-Americans.
Reverse 10 depicts Idar holding La
Cronica, a newspaper with the additional inscription
"Teacher, Activist, Journalist" along with the outline
and symbol of the state of Texas.
Reverse 11 depicts Idar writing at her
desk with the additional inscription "Educate a woman,
and you educate a family" along the border.
And Dr. Brown, that concludes the

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candidate designs.
CHAIRMAN BROWN:

Outstanding.

And

thank you so much, April. And I'm going to thank the
family for their fantastic comments as well.
At this point, Joe, do you or Mike have
anything that you want to share with the committee
regarding the designs on these coins?
MR. MENNA: Mr. Chairperson, Dr. Brown,
this is Joe Menna.

I defer to my boss Michael

Costello to speak first.
MR. COSTELLO: Dr. Brown, I have no
comment. Thanks.
MR. MENNA: Okay.

Dr. -- I don't mean

to interrupt you, Dr. Brown.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: No, please proceed,
Joe.
MR. MENNA: Yes, sir.

Again, this is

Joe Menna. In direct contrast to what I said about -there are -- what I said about stakeholders being in
alignment with the best designs, I'm not saying I'm an
expert on the best designs. But me personally, thank
you to the family members. I fully -- Designs 1 and 2

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are wonderful. Design 2 is just a flip of the
portrait, therefore, it does -- I'm sure the family
members feel it's accurate. But when I went over
this, when you simply -- people are not -- they're
bilaterally symmetrical up to a point.
When you flip

someone's

portrait,

you're going to lose some of the character. So that's
one reason to stay away from it from an artistic
perspective, as is the full lack of polish on this
coin. The field is totally textured. So if this coin
were selected, I would suggest that the committee
consider removing the great textured feel because
there's absolutely no polish on this coin.
The coin that I -- and also, any of the
coins that you folks have seen with scales, just
symbolically from an artistic perspective, repeating
scales of justice, I'm not saying it's undesirable.
But as it's such a prominent feature on the Eleanor
Roosevelt selection, it may be -- and this with it
being in the same set, that might be something to
think about. I'm not going to recommend what the
committee should or shouldn't do.

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But ultimately, I have to stress from a
purely artistic perspective -- this might sound
totally off the wall. And again, I'm not lobbying.
I'm not trying to be an advocate, I'm just talking
about as an artist, Design 8 is maybe one of the
greatest things I've seen in my 16 years at the United
States Mint.
Here is a woman of letters. This is a
very innovative design. It bespeaks to a broad
spectrum of graphic design history.

She is being

represented both three-dimensionally and twodimensionally.

Her whole person is made up of

symbolic words, all either representing not only her,
but the required inscriptions are included in this
field of text contained within her body.
And this is the closest that I've seen
to a U.S. Mint coin ever representing something as
close to the mastery of Gustav Klimt, who so ably
combined two-dimensional design with three-dimensional
design.

And the profound -- this is a circulating

coin that has negative spaces a s if it's a
congressional gold medal. This is something we've
never seen.

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So based on all the artistic criteria
that I've heard the committee express during my 16
years at the Mint, I think this is like -- from an
artist's perspective, and all respect to the family,
all respect to the women who have spoke, I don't -I'm not saying that their selections are inferior any
way, shape, or form.

I just think artistically this

is like -- this is maybe the best thing I've ever seen
done by a U.S. Mint artist, frankly. That's it.
Thank you so much.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
gentlemen. I really appreciate your comments.
Now turning to the committee members,
do you have any technical or legal questions about the
program or the designs on this quarter before we begin
our general discussion? Not seeing anyone with a hand
or comment, then I will assume that we can proceed to
begin our discussion.
I'd like to remind again, members, to
please try to keep your comments to five minutes or
less, and identify yourself prior to speaking. We
will keeping track of time, and I will indicate when

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your time is up. I ask that members please wrap up
your comments when they are close to the end of the
five minutes.
Additionally, if any members have
questions or comments of any program aspect, please
refrain at this point from asking or discussing these
until you are recognized or at the end of the
discussion of this program when I will certainly ask
for additional comments. With that guidance, let's
begin with Mary Lannin.
MS. LANNIN: Oh, I'm so happy you did
that. I want to tell Joe I completely agree with
everything he said. Design Number 8 is absolutely
stunning.

Again, with all respect to the family and

to the stakeholders that reviewed these designs, this
might be coin of the year. This is a fabulous,
fabulous design. It just takes everything that she's
made of inside and shows it on the outside. So this
will get all of my votes. Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you, Mary.
Let's turn down -- turn now to Donald.
MR. SCARINCI: Did you just call me?

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CHAIRMAN BROWN:

Yes, sir.

MR. SCARINCI: Okay.

So I love -- you

know, I love Reverse 8 because of the negative space.
I just think it's -- you know, but I don't see how we
can do this.

You know, I guess you've got all the --

this is just

fascinating. I mean, I just love what

the artist did in this coin. And while I appreciate,
you know, that people -- you know, that the family
likes 02, I have to give this my complete support.
I think 08 is, you know, is just, you
know, clever.

It uses negative space.

It's got --

you know, it uses the -- you know, all the stuff that
has to be on a coin as decorative. I just have to go
with this. I think it's great.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
Let'sturn now to Mike Moran.
MR. MORAN:

This is Mike Moran.

Now

all of you that heard me lead off with my discussion
about clients and what we do and don't do know why.
Good Lord.

This is the best art, Number 8, that I

have seen in my 11 years on the CCAC. I love the fact
that Jovita Idar is incused. I love the plain field.

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If it doesn't get coin of the year I'll be sad.
But even more so, I want to say to the
Mint Management, please, please, please let us do this
one.

We didn't get our Anna May Wong in a movie

poster format, but this is head and shoulders above
anything. There's no gimmick to this.

It's just --

it's beautiful. It will set the tone for the women on
the quarters program. It will be the flagship design,
period. I'm all over it. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Why don't you tell us
how you really feel, Mike. I'm only kidding you. I'm
going to move onto Robin.
MR. MORAN: Wait until I get some wine
in me.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Okay.

Moving to

Robin.
MS. SALMON: This is Robin Salmon.
Yes, from the artistic perspective, I was completely
blown away by 8 and 8A, and almost didn't believe what
I was seeing. It is truly spectacular. It's also a
wonderful portrait of the woman. And I'm going to put
all of my votes behind 8. Thank you.

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CHAIRMAN BROWN: Okay. Thank you so
much. Let's turn to Dennis.
MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. And
thank you to the family members, Ms. Lopez and Ms.
Aki, for your insight.
And Joe, thank you for your comments
too.
Number 8 is amazing. I love Number 8
as a three-inch bronze medal.
And Joe, you knew that someone was
going to ask this, so I'll be the one to ask it.

Will

this translate to the one-inch canvas of a U.S.
quarter dollar? Will it be legible, readable? It's a
beautiful portrait, but will it communicate the way a
coin, especially a coin in this program with its great
educational aspect, will it communicate the way it
needs to? Will it be visible?
MR. MENNA: Thank you for the
invitation to comment on it, Dennis.
Mr. Chairman, with your permission,
this is Joe Menna speaking. Respectfully,
respectfully, I have to say that we would never --

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Dennis, Mr. -- Dennis, you're my friend. I call you
Dennis. We've broken bread multiple times.
MR. TUCKER: Yes, yes.
MR. MENNA:

Dennis, I hope I'm not

being disrespectful, we would never put anything
before your eyes, the whole committee, that we did not
think was eminently coinable. What's fascinating
about this coin is that this is a coin that invites
investigation.

It grabs you immediately with the

portrait, which in my opinion, the family knows their
grandma better than -- the family knows the family
better than anybody of course, right? Nobody's going
to tell me what my grandfather looks like more than
that picture.
I know my -- I don't even need a
picture to know what my grandfather looks like, and he
died when I was 10 years old.

He was my best friend.

I get that. To me, as an artist structure -- if I had
to choose from two portraits to sculpt from without
referring to secondary or tertiary resources, this is
the one.

Just from the neck up, structurally, it's

more sound. This is not easier. This is a better map

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for me -- this is a better guide for me as a sculptor,
number one, right?
For the text concerns that I think
you're addressing, by incusing her name -- and don't
-- let's not forget that white field that we see is
also going to be polished. It's going to be crazy in
terms of the intensity of this.

All that lettering

will probably get a harder laser frosting finish, so
that will be -- pop out as white against the body -against the more neutral tone of the field, and you're
inviting the viewer -- automatically you're going to
be drawn to her name.
And then as a viewer, you're going to
look at this -- I get what you're saying about the
three-inch medal, but on a quarter scale, one inch or
so, you're going to look and say, man, where the
heck's -- oh, there's the United States of America.
Oh, look, there's E. Pluribus Unum. You're going to
see all the required inscriptions in there in a way
that they've never been presented in history to my
knowledge.
I mean, this is like bananas cool. And

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this isn't just some like, hey, let's do something
cool because it's artistically cool and the heck with
the family. No.

In my opinion -- I'm not trying to

say we know better than the family or dismiss the
families. I think just artistically, making the most
-- one of the most -- I think it's one of the best
coins in the past hundred years. By making one of the
best coins we've ever made, there is no better way
than to honor this great American.
And her -- the body of her work is her
body right there. The body of letters right there.
It's a woman of letters. It's amazing.

I'm sorry.

I'm lobbying for it. I've got to stop. I'm getting
out of my lane.
MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Joe.

I

appreciate that. I knew that you would bring a lot of
enthusiasm to your response, and it was well-reasoned.
I -MR. MENNA: And I have to say it's not
even my design, so how about that?
MR. TUCKER: Well, you're a good art
director, and a great chief engraver, one of the best

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we've seen.

So always

appreciate your insight. And I

do know that you would never present designs to us
that are not coinable.

Coinability is not my concern.

I wonder more about whether it'll just be legible, and
maybe that's because I'm reaching my 50s and I need
reading glasses now.
MR. MENNA: Dennis, if I may interrupt,
you may have seen -MR. TUCKER: Yes.
MR. MENNA: -- I've gone -- I've tried
to go through three different pairs of readers and
progressives just to see what all -- to try and see
the screen the best way today.
MR. TUCKER: Yes.
MR. MENNA: Because of that -- if we
frost this the right way, which I fully trust -- we
have a master engineer Steve Bernstein that works
directly under Mike's subordinate Matt Hill, our laser
engineer is probably the best in the world. And the
strategy he will employ to make those letters pop will
make them eminently legible.
Unless, Mike, correct me if I'm wrong,

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but we can pull this off. I'm very confident that we
could not only pull this off, not skin of our teeth,
but like slam-dunk this. I'm fully positive.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you, gentlemen.
MR. COSTELLO: Absolutely. This will
look amazing.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: I -- please forgive me
-MR. MENNA: I think Mike just
interjected if Mike could be called.
MR. COSTELLO: I'm sorry, Joe. I was
just piggybacking off what you said, and this will
look amazing.
MR. TUCKER: This is Dennis Tucker
again. Joe, are you referring to laser frosting and
other techniques that would be used for proof or -MR. MENNA: Yeah, the extra proof -MR. TUCKER: -- are there special
finishes?
MR. MENNA: So proof is going to make
-- the laser's going to make the proof version pop
more, and the relief, the nature of the relief

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organization is going to make the circulating pop in
its own way. Look, proof and circulated, we know
they're different animals, right? I mean, they never
look the same no matter what. This will work equally
well in both formats.
And I -- Phebe -- when my colleague
Phebe mentioned the regret that we're not doing the
three-inch silvers in this program like we've done in
other quarters, gosh, would this one be a great 3-D.
This would be a great three-inch medal too, but I
honestly believe, Dennis, that it would work great on
a quarter, and I'll shut up for the rest of the
meeting.
MR. TUCKER: Thank you for that
enthusiasm, Joe. That's wonderful.

This is Dennis

Tucker again. I feel like this is a conversation that
we need to have because other people will have the
same conversation out within the collecting community,
and these questions will be raised.

That's why I

raise it here.
I love Design 8, and I think it was
Robin who said you couldn't believe that you were

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seeing this.

And I had the same reaction in a good

way, a very good way, when I saw this portfolio. I'll
also just mention that I like Number 7. I like this
concept of energy radiating off of her personage. And
this also for me harkens back to some of the pattern
coins of the late 1800s that never became circulating
coins. I would be happy with the family's choices. I
would prefer -MS. AKI: Thank you.
MR. TUCKER: -- Reverse 2 over Reverse
1 for the use of the Spanish language and the
newspaper's title and for the way it spells out her -you know, what she did rather than using a quote as an
inscription.

And after that discussion, I will

conclude my remarks. Thank you for indulging me with
the extra time, Mr. Chair.
And thank you, Joe.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you both. I
really appreciate it. I'm sure that you've given the
committee a lot to chew on. Let's now then move onto
Dean.
MR. KOTLOWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

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I'd like to direct my comments in a number of
different areas and directions. First, I'd like to
address my fellow more junior members of the CCAC.
You know, we review these portfolios. We're doing it
individually, probably alone, and then you see
something.

And you wonder -- I see something, I

wonder if anybody else sees what I see, and that's
what I felt about Designs 8 and also 8A.
And Joe, I don't want to sound overly
deferential to you, but sometimes I think when we're
talking here -- over the years I've been on the CCAC.
It's like you're the professor in a lot of ways, and
sometimes I feel like I'm the student when it comes to
narratives. No, don't shake your head here.

This is

how I feel. These are my feelings, and they're mine.
And as you were speaking today, I felt
a little bit like you were the professor and I was the
student, and I wanted to be the star student. And
before you made your last comments as you were leading
up to 8A I was feeling I know the answer, I know the
answer.

The answer is 8 or 8A, and I wanted to raise

my hand almost before you said it.

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And so I really do -- I like both.

And

I would say don't ignore 8A because we may want to
reinforce, you know, the United States of America
Quarter Dollar so it's a little bit more in synch with
other coins in this design. But Joe, where you really
had me, where you as the professor added something I
should've added was to bring up Gustav Klimt. I
thought that that was really neat and really, really
excellent.
The other thing is, and we've had it
before, I think it's good for the committee to make a
statement.

And this design was not selected by some

of the other sources, you know, entities, institutions
that were looking at the other designs. And for us to
go with this would give the secretary something to
think about.

It would be at a minimum just honoring

the design and making a statement and taking a stand
and Jovita Idar took stands.
To build a little bit on what was said
earlier, the two designs by the family are very nice.
I also prefer Design 2 because I like the addition of
the newspaper. I like the accomplishments being

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listed. I think that they're very, very important.
And I appreciated the quotation on Design Number 1,
and I'd like to thank the family members for getting
me out a little bit of some of my academic historian
bias.
I like the quote because it's a good
reminder about the need to educate, not just women,
but everyone. It's a good quote also because it's
famous and it's tied to Jovita Idar. And it is also
grounded in arguments that would've been made a
century ago in terms of expanding women's
opportunities. How would you do that?

You would

almost use the gender roles that were limiting to
women, confining women in the private space taking
care of the home, the husband, and the family, and
using that kind of argument to, again, expand women's
right to vote, and in this case to be educated.
I had a little bit -- this is where my
concern was, and you can dismiss this if you'd like.
Whether that quote speaks as well to 2023 because
there are a lot of women who are going to become
educated. There are a lot of educated women who

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choose not to have families in the way that I think
people, when they look at that quote, would think
about, you know, families.
So, it's mainly -- it's principally a
good quotation, but I just wanted to bring that up.
And again, I think the family reinforced the idea that
this is a good reminder about the importance of
educating women.
And Mr. Chair, thank you very much.
And again, a reminder, my name is Dean Kotlowski, and
I will conclude my remarks.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Okay. Thank you so
much, Dean. Really appreciate that.
Peter, your thoughts, please?
MR. VAN ALFEN: Thank you, Mr.
Chairman.

This is Peter van Alfen.

I have to say

that I think Number 8 is absolutely stunning for its
beauty, its simplicity. To quote Joe, I think it's
fantastically cool in the way that the inscription has
been done. And I think, you know, there really is no
other coin like this or no other coin design like
this. And I think that would be a really fitting

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tribute to the American Women Quarter Program to have
this design on one of the coins.

So this design will

have my full support.
And just that said, I do think that
some of the other ones are certainly worth mentioning.
I like Number 7. I like the dahlia and the embroidery
design.

And the -- one of the portraits that the

family chose, Number 1, I think would also be
suitable.

But to reiterate, I really think that

Number 8 has to be the reverse for this coin.

So

thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
Next up is Art.
MR. BERNSTEIN: Hello. This is Art
Bernstein, and I must say the beauty of having these
meetings. When I first looked at this portfolio, I
skipped over 8 and 8A. Just couldn't see it.

And

having heard the discussion that I've heard, and I'm
now overwhelmed and annoyed at myself. Maybe it's
because I'm a junior member, but I'm annoyed at myself
for having first disregarded those two designs, and
now I'm a big supporter of Design 8. I see it now,

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and I appreciate everyone's comments.
I will say I was attracted to Reverse
1. And all of the family members and friends that I
spoke to about this design were moved by that
quotation, and that has some weight with me as well.
And I thought it was a very dynamic portrait as well.
But thank you, and I'm all in with bananas cool Number
8.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
Next up is Dr. Fuller.
DR. FULLER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Let me first say that this is very difficult. I'm
absolutely humbled by being on this committee because
we are all called to be experts.

Sometimes you are

just humbled by the expertise of your colleagues. I
also completely overlooked 8 and 8A. Quite frankly, I
did not consider them.
And just to hear Joe and Mary and
everyone else praise this design for its artistic
value just really humbles me and reminds me that I'm
also a student. You know, and I

have to continue to

be.

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With that said, though, and I -- it -I think I might be -- what's the term I'm looking for,
the lone dissenter if you will. Because I have to ask
myself what is the purpose of coinage. Who is our
audience?

I think that if our audience are

collectors, then I would probably say 8 or 8A. But if
our audience is to educate the American public about
hidden figures, if you will -- and please also allow
me to -- and forgive me for not saying this at the
outset, I thank the family for your presence and for
educating us, me, about Jovita Idar. I did not know
about her before or her work.
And so if I'm thinking about the public
and the American public, and when they pick up a coin,
what information are they going to get about this
person in a short period of time?

I think I would

have to go with the family's choices of either 1 or
possibly 2.

I really like 2 because of the addition

of La Cronica, and also, you know, what she achieved
as a suffragist, journalist, and activist. So I think
my vote will probably be for Number 2. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN:

Thank you so much.

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REPORTER:

Excuse me.

CHAIRMAN BROWN: We'll go to Sam Gill.
REPORTER: This is the court reporter.
Can you please announce yourself, the last speaker?
DR. FULLER: This is Dr. Harcourt
Fuller.
REPORTER:

Thank you.

DR. FULLER: Thank you.
REPORTER: Please continue, Dr. Brown.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
Next up is Sam Gill.
MR. GILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
This is Sam Gill. So, I'm torn about this portfolio.
And by the way, I think the designs are all very, very
beautiful, but I'm torn. I hear my colleagues talk
about Reverse 8, and there is no question it is a
stunning, stunning design.
It would -- I would love to see it on a
medal or something like that, but I'm going to have to
go back to the family here and be contrarian like Dr.
Fuller. And that is that I truly believe a coin,
particularly a circulating coin, needs to tell some

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kind of a story. And Number 8 doesn't tell much of a
story really. And because it's going to pass through
people's hands very quickly, and I want people to just
stop for a second and look.
And most people are not going to look
-- Google this name or try to find out what Jovita was
all about. But if you look at Number 1 and Number 2,
you do get the story.

You get her quotation.

Her

name is posted there, you know, where you can actually
read it. And that's something that is very, very
important to me.

I like Number 1 because apparently

it -- as Joe says, it captures the portrait and the
essence of what the family saw all their lives.
So I'm going to go with 1 or 2 and
recognize Number 8 as being spectacular. But I just
want the -- I want the story told of this incredible
lady. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN BROWN:

Thank you so much,

Sam. I really appreciate your comments. And I guess
because as the chair, I've chosen to go last. And by
virtue of what we've heard from Dr. Fuller and from
Sam Gill, I am no longer someone who is, in fact,

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contrarian.
I must confess that when I saw this
portfolio, and this portfolio was fantastic. And Joe,
you and the team deserve a lot of accolades. I, too,
did not look much at 8 or 8A, and partly because of
the fact that given that the American Women's Quarters
Program is supposed to present a diversity of women,
diverse in a number of aspects, the culture that is
expressed in the terms and the wording that's on 1 and
2, to me really speaks to the fact that this, in fact
-- this is a culture that we want to continue to, in
fact, embrace, educate women and educate family.
I do respect what Dean said about
today's America, that there's a lot of women who do
not have children.

But at the same time, there is

that part of America for which family is in fact
crucially important, critically important. So to me,
1 and 2 sort of represent the culture that we are
trying to, in fact, continue to embrace as we embrace
this fantastic American.
So for me, that as much as I really
appreciate my colleagues who are much more

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experienced, much more, in fact, competent from the
standpoint of design, I think from the standpoint of
culture, we want to make sure that we also capture
that as well. So at this point, I'd love to, in fact,
give some opportunity for the family and then Joe to
respond because I think it's important in this part of
our conversation. Ms. Lopez?
MS. LOPEZ: Yes. First of all, I would
really like to thank all the committee members that
have made their commentary on the designs. As I had
said earlier, they were all stunning. Some were more
simplistic than others.

I will have to say that I

think our family still stands firm on our two choices.
I have to agree with Dr. Tucker, Dr. Fuller, and Mr.
Gill that the simplicity of the statement on 1 and 2
is key because it's a depiction of the short story of
who our aunt was.
However, it's also -- I know that, you
know, we have a say, but I also know that you all have
a vote.

And I will say on Number 8, it also depicts

her portrait as well.

I think our concern about

Number 8 is that of Mr. Tucker is the ability of the

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person holding the coin in their hand, whether they
will be able to truly read the verbiage that is
represented -- representative on her dress.
However, I do like the term
"investigative" that Mr. Menna used. Coin of the year
is also intriguing. So I know that our family still
remains strong on 1 and 2, and we thank you for all
your words and contributions today.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much for
your comments.
Joe?
MR. MENNA: Ma'am, thank you for your
comments, ma'am. I don't mean to insult anybody or
think I'm smarter than anybody.

I think -- look, I

know I'm a big mouth and I speak a lot more than my
predecessors did, but I think I'm in a unique position
in that we're at a new time.

And you folks grant me

the honor of being the steward of this position in a
more vocal way, and I appreciate that.
There comes a time when you -- when we
-- I don't want to speechify, but there's a point
where, as coin makers and coin lovers, we need to

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decide if we want to keep making storybook coins or if
the words are required to tell the story, there is a
-- in Russia where I went to school, this would've
been described as making literature, not sculpture.
Or do we let the visual, the visual images carry the
story? The artwork.
There's a difference between a painting
and a book. There's a difference between poetry and
prose, you know? I think a qualitative difference. I
would prefer a haiku over a journalistic ten-page, you
know, editorial.

Because I can get more from a coin

or a three-line haiku than I can from a -- you know, a
20,000-word essay.

I really can.

That's just me as

an artist.
So I think it's important we need to
decide -- not "we".

Not -- I'm not a committee

member, but I think there's a point where it's
interesting to think about storytelling versus -literal storytelling versus visual storytelling.

And

I won't contradict the family members, but I do
promise that whatever inscriptions that are primarily
-- the primary inscriptions, the required inscriptions

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will be fully visible on either the circulated or
uncirculated coin of that version, Version 8.
And I'm not lobbying for it.

I'm

saying technically, we're the United States Mint.
We're the best manufacturing mint on the planet.

If

we can't make this, nobody can, and I know we can make
it. And if

I'm wrong, my boss Mike will correct me.

Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Joe, let me -MS. LANNIN: This is Mary Lannin.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Go ahead, Mary.
MS. LANNIN: Mr. Chair, may I say a few
words? I -- the passion that -REPORTER:

Excuse me.

This is the

court reporter. Can you introduce yourself? Identify
yourself?
MS. LANNIN:

This is Mary.

This is

Mary Lannin.
REPORTER: Thank you.
MS. LANNIN: And I 100 percent back
what Joe initially said about this coin. I have been
on the committee eight years. I have never seen a

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design that's this cool.

We can have a sort of

Hallmark storyboard kind of coin that would satisfy
everybody, or we can have a coin that if you put it on
a table, it's the tabletop test.

Why wouldn't you

pick this up and wonder what is on it? You will spend
more time looking at this and trying to decipher the
words that are in the garment that she's wearing.
You'll get more, I guess, publicity and word-of-mouth
than I think another design would offer. I think that
this is an absolutely spectacular coin.

And that's

all I have to say. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN:

Thank you so much,

Mary. And let me just quickly add here, particularly
given the comments that Joe has made, Joe, we have
decided to, in fact, embrace you because of the fact
that you teach us a lot. So please do not ever
anticipate this as being a lobbying at all.

At all.

We want to continue to be educated by you. So, sir,
you'll continue to be asked questions of the type that
you have been ask because we view that as tremendously
valuable.
MR. MENNA: Dr. Brown, this is Joseph

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Menna.

I'm sorry.

Very selfishly, I know it's going

to sound like BS or crazy stuff, my ambition is to be
the greatest chief engraver in history, and you guys
are giving me the opportunity to kickstart that, and I
appreciate it. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Well, we appreciate
that as well. Let me go to Donald and then to, in
fact, Dennis.
MR. SCARINCI: I just have to emphasize
that we just can't pass the opportunity to do Number
8. I think for all the reasons Joe said and more. I
mean, this is the kind of coin design that wins
awards. This is art. The difference between this and
the rest of the portfolio is this coin is art.
And the buzz that this coin is going to
get, it'll be the star of the year of coins.

There's

no question about it. So this coin is going to get
talked about the most.

It's going to get written

about the most, and it probably will win an award.
I really have to tell everybody that. Joe is 1,000
percent -- 100,000 percent right about this coin. We
can't pass the opportunity to pass -- to do it.

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REPORTER:

Is there a pause or freeze?

This is the court reporter.
MR. SCARINCI: Yeah, I was finished.

I

didn't -MS. STAFFORD: I think Dr. Brown
somehow has disappeared, so I believe Dennis Tucker,
you had your hand up first.
MR. TUCKER: Thank you. Thank you,
Jennifer.

This is Dennis Tucker, and I'd like to pose

a question to April and then follow up on her answer.
Are we considering these coins today in the order in
which they'll be minted in 2023?
MS. STAFFORD: Great question. And no
because we have family representatives for Edith
Kanaka'ole, who because of the time difference we
needed to move that portfolio to this afternoon.

So

my understanding, the planned release -- although I do
not know, Mr. Tucker, if this is official, so I just
want to stress that it potentially could change. My
understanding regarding the release is that it would
be Bessie Coleman followed by Edith Kanaka'ole,
Eleanor Roosevelt, Jovita Idar, and then Maria

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Tallchief.
MR. TUCKER:

Thank you for that.

CHAIRMAN BROWN: I lost the connection.
MR. TUCKER: I have a -CHAIRMAN BROWN: Dennis, do you have a
-- can you follow up briefly, if you will?
MR. TUCKER: Yes.
Brown.

Thank you, Dr.

And thank you, April, for that information.

What I was going to say was Designs 1 and 2 actually
are innovative in their own way, and we've discussed
this to some extent in other meetings. The quarter
dollars denomination has been spelled out with letters
since 1838, and it's been spelled out -- abbreviated,
it's been spelled out completely as quarter dollar
since 1892.
And Designs 1 and 2 are innovative in
their use of the numerals two, five, and the cents
sign, if you can call something that goes back to 1838
innovative. So, certainly, there's not a generation
alive that's ever seen a circulating U.S. quarter
dollar with the denomination abbreviated in this way.
I think that's something that will get attention from

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the numismatic press at least, and it might actually
garner some attention from the mainstream media as an
innovation.
My comment was going to be if Jovita
Idar is the first coin that features that use of
alphanumeric abbreviation, then it would truly
innovative.

But I imagine that the other -- some

other coins might be minted first with that
abbreviation. Anyway, that's something to think about
as well, and I will conclude my remarks. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
And we have Mike Moran, then Dr. Fuller, and then we
would like to turn again back to comments from the
family.
MR. MORAN: Thank you, Dr. Brown.
is Mike Moran.
shouldn't go.

This

I'm going to go where I probably
It's clear to me -- of course I always

do that. It's clear to me that Number 8 is going to
get the majority of the votes on the committee. I
don't mean to discourage those of you that aren't
necessarily going to support it.
But I'm looking at what happens after

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the review.

First of all, please consider that part

of what makes 8 so good is the clean, absolutely clean
field.

In terms of will this coin be looked at, I

think absolutely it will be by non-collectors who
normally wouldn't look at any of this and just flip
the coin in the vending machine or what have you. In
some cases, it's the little dog house for the ASPCA.
They're going to be fascinated once they realize that
the body of Jovita is full of the inscriptions of what
she did, and they will look.
But 8A destroys that continuity by
putting the traditional ring around the rosy, so to
speak, with our inscriptions. Please don't split your
vote there.

And for those of you that feel this is

step too far, please recognize if it's not a 3, it's a
2 or a 1. The reason I say this is this is an
innovative design, and I really want to see it get
adopted. But to do that, we need an overwhelmingly
large vote for it. (inaudible). I'm done.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
Dr. Fuller?
DR. FULLER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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I think Mike answered my question in a way, but I
wanted to ask Joe. On 8 or 8A, do you think that with
this design, will the ordinary person be inspired to
either Google her or look up information? Because
that's my concern. What are they going to learn?
Will they take that next step and try to find out who
was Jovita Idar with this design as opposed to the
more literal 1 and 2? So that's my question for Joe,
please. Thank you.
REPORTER: Can you identify yourself,
please? This is the court reporter.
DR. FULLER: I'm sorry.

I'm Dr.

Harcourt Fuller. Thank you.
MR. MENNA: This is Joseph Menna, Dr.
Brown.

If I can answer Dr. Fuller's questions and

also kind of address something Mike brought up,
because it kind of sparked an idea. One thing, Dr.
Fuller and Mike, one additional step we could take
with this coin is, instead of just incusing her name,
we can incuse the required inscriptions and you're
guaranteed for them to stand out as well -- as fully
as her name.

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And I think this will attract more
attention.

This will make more people interested by

the -- it's not -- this is not novelty. This is
innovation. The denomination, with all respect to
Dennis, we've done one dollar.

We've done

alphanumeric denominations on other coins. Maybe not
quarters.

I'm not belittling anything that he said,

but for me just artistically as an artist, 34 years'
experience as an artist, sculptor, designer, if we can
incuse the text that -- the required inscriptions to
satisfy those criteria more fully in case anybody has
any concerns, I'm not collector of coins, Dr. Fuller,
but I'm a collector of many, many other things. If I
could turn the camera around, it's not just the junk
behind me. Believe me.
It's usually the unusual thing that
grabs your attention, right? It's usually like when
you open up eggs, do you see the cracked one
immediately?

I'm not saying this is a cracked egg,

but it's always the thing that you're kind of like -it's always that one odd ball or that one odd element
that captures your attention. If I were to see this

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coin on the counter, I think it would attract my
attention more than the other typical ones.
This is atypical.

This is literally

one of the most unique things that would've been on a
quarter in the history of quarters, and that's kind of
a neat thing.

And this is kind of the first time

we've done anything as bold as some of our -- we like
to call them friends, but let's be -- they're also
competitors on the global stage, you know? We are
friends with them all, of course, but these other
mints, they're also competitors.
This is the first opportunity not only
I think by creating such a magnificent work of art,
art, that you honor not only this magnificent -- you
honor this woman in the fullest way possible. Not by
having some storybook words, some quotes, but by -people are going to say like who the heck is this?
And they're going to read her name. That's going to
prompt them to Google more than something that already
spells it out for them I think in my opinion.
I mean, short of having a QR code on
here or some other kind of augmented reality effect, I

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don't think you're going to get anybody's attention
further. So I apologize again, Dr. Brown. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN

BROWN:

No

apologies

necessary. My colleagues, let me just remind us that
this committee is made up of persons with a lot of
diversity based on experience, based on expertise, and
I think we should recognize that that's what makes
this country and what makes this committee so
phenomenally really valuable. So I want to just make
sure that everyone appreciates that.
Yes, there are artists here. There are
sculptors.

And then there are those of us who, in

fact, are not in that category.
just a coin collector.

Like myself.

I'm

So I think we need to

recognize that as we go forward, we are trying to
combine this diversity in a way that it can be
actually appreciated by the citizens of the United
States. Donald?
MR. SCARINCI: Can I -- I just want to
answer the question in a little -- by using an analogy
to television, for example, right?

When you watched

the -- for those of you who watched the first series

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of the sequel to or the prequel to Breaking Bad,
right, which was Better Call Saul, like didn't you
wonder why are they calling the series Better Call
Saul? Who's Saul Goodman, right?
You find out later in the fifth series
who he is, but you know, you look it up. And you -what you do when you -- you know, when you're
presented with a coin like this that doesn't have -that doesn't really spoon feed you, you know, the
platitude. You know, you say, wow, this is cool. You
know, let me look this up, and you look it up.

And

when you look it up, you learn a lot more about the
person than by just looking at the coin. If you don't
-- if you just look at the coin, that's all you see.
So, the -- to answer the question by
analogy, you do the same thing when you watch a TV
show. You do the same thing when you look at a book
cover. You know, something catches your attention,
you look it up. If it spells it out for you, you
don't look it up.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
Donald. Really I appreciate that. And my colleagues,

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I'd like to suggest that we hear the comments from
the, in fact, liaisons, and then that we actually then
turn to the next step in this process.
So, Ms. Lopez and Ms. Aki, do you have
additional comments that you'd like to share with the
committee?
MS. AKI: Well, first of all, I would
like to say I'm impressed with all the discussion in
regards to our aunt.
MS. AKI: My name is Martha Lopez Aki.
I kind of have a flavor that the committee is leaning
towards 8.

And something that Mr. Menna stated

earlier about bolding the information on the dress of
Jovita is maybe bolding the specific accomplishments,
maybe, of what's on some of the other coins.
Of course we still are voting for our
original choices, but with what I'm hearing, it sounds
like there's a leaning towards 8. Our family, of
course, will be happy with the determination by the
committee, but that was just a question I had.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.

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MS. LOPEZ: Dr. Fuller, I also want to
say thank you for your graciousness and for all the
incredible work that goes into this process.

I mean,

it has been absolutely fascinating, and the time
involved, the thoughts involved, we're -- on behalf of
the family, we just thank you for your graciousness
and for your commitment to this work.
REPORTER: Can you identify yourself?
MS. LOPEZ: Elizabeth Lopez.
REPORTER: Thank you.
DR. FULLER: If I may respond, Dr.
Brown?
CHAIRMAN BROWN: If you could very
briefly, please.
DR. FULLER: I thank you for that
comment, Ms. Lopez. And I know that for all my
colleagues, it is a -- it's very challenging, you
know, to choose a coin. And we all have our
preferences based on our backgrounds and our
expertise. But in the end, I think it's a wonderful
process, a wonderful committee, and I'm just very
humbled and honored to be a member of this committee.

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Thank you.
REPORTER: If you could identify
yourself.
DR. FULLER:

Dr. Harcourt Fuller.

Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN:

This is Lawrence

Brown, and I want to thank the family, and certainly
thank all my colleagues on the CCAC. I'd like to
suggest then, unless there is any other burning
conversation -- my apologies, Dennis. I just saw your
hand. If you can do it very briefly, please.
MR. TUCKER: Yes, thank you, Dr. Brown.
I just wanted to reassure Ms. Lopez and Ms. Aki that
our determination here is not really a determination.
As you know, I'm sure the program managers have told
you, we make a recommendation to the Secretary of the
Treasury who will also hear recommendations from the
U.S. Commission of Fine Arts and will have access to
our transcripts.
So your dialogue today is very
important, and it's important for us to hear.

And

it's also important for Secretary Yellen to hear. So

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that's how the process works. We will make a
recommendation, but not a determination or a decision.
Thank you again for your time.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you, Dennis, for
that fine point. I think that was certainly wellappreciated. At this point, I'd like to suggest for
each of the CCA Committee members that each of you
should have already received a copy of the scoresheet
that was emailed to you. Please email or text your
scores to Greg Weinman, and Mr. Weinman will tally
your scores and will present them and the results in
about ten minutes.
MR. WEINMAN: It may be a little
sooner.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: He may be able to do
it sooner, but at least that probably is the longest
time that will take. The reason I'm suggesting this
is the liaisons have been with us for a while. I
think that they should hear the final recommendation
from the committee.
MS. WARREN: Dr. Brown, this is
Jennifer Warren. Just make sure, guys, if you could

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do them quickly because we do have to start at 1:00.
So that means you will only have a little bit of time
to eat.

So the sooner you do it, the sooner we can

recess.
MR. WEINMAN: I stand ready.

Please

send them my way.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: To the court reporter,
we are now in recess for the vote.
REPORTER: We are off the record.
(Off the record)
REPORTER: We are back on the record at
12:07 p.m.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you much.

This

is Lawrence Brown. We are back. I recognize Greg
Weinman, counsel to the CCAC, to present the results
for the scoring sheets.
MR. WEINMAN: Thank you for your
patience. Once again, with everybody's scoring, the
score is out of a possible 33 points. Reverse 1
received 16, Reverse 2 received 15, Reverse 4 received
3, Reverse 5 received 5, Reverse 6 received 4, Reverse
6A received 5, Reverse 7 received 7, Reverse 8

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received 26 making it the highest scoring design.
Reverse 8A received 8, Reverse 9 received 3, Reverse
10 received 4, and Reverse 11 received 4. Once again,
the highest scoring design was Design 8 with 26
points.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: This is Lawrence
Brown. Thank you, Greg. Are there any motions that
anyone wants to offer? Hearing none, if all
discussion has been concluded, I will call the
question that all those in favor of what we've heard
of the votes say aye.
MEMBERS: Aye.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Opposed?

Are there

any further -MAN 1: Abstain.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: -- motions?
REPORTER: I heard oppose.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: I heard what?
MS. LANNIN: An aye from Mary Lannin
who signed in late.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you, Mary. Are
there any further motions? Hearing none, we want to

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thank Ms. Lopez and Ms. Aki for sharing your time and
efforts in advancing the legacy of clearly an
accomplished American and advancing, I probably -- I
might say, the knowledge of all Americans about her.
I would like to propose that we recess for lunch until
1 p.m. when the next liaison will be able to join us.
Is there a motion to recess for lunch?
MR. BERNSTEIN: Art Bernstein so moves.
MR. VAN ALFEN: Peter van Alfen second.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Okay. We are now in
recess for lunch, and we start promptly at 1 p.m.
REPORTER: We are off the record -MAN 2: Thank you, all.
REPORTER: -- at 12:09 p.m.
(Off the record)
REPORTER: We are back on the record at
1 p.m.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
Good afternoon, everyone. We have returned from a
nutritious lunch, and we are back in session. We now
return to April Stafford who is a fantastic Chief
Office of Mint Office Design Management to present the

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diverse candidates for the 2023 Edith Kanaka’ole
quarter.
MS. STAFFORD: Thank you, Dr. Brown.
Edith Kanaka’ole was an indigenous Hawaiian composer,
chanter, dancer, teacher, and entertainer. Her
mo'olelo, or stories, served to rescue aspects of
Hawaiian history, customs, and traditions that were
disappearing due to the suppression of Hawaiian
culture at (inaudible).

Kanaka’ole, or Auntie Edith

as she was also called, was a reknown practitioner
andauthority of modern Hawaiian culture and language.
Kanaka’ole believed that the ole, or
Hawaiian chants, formed the basis of Hawaiian values
and history. She learned this art form and performed
all of the major styles of delivery. Kanaka’ole's
commitment to preserving native Hawaiian traditional
knowledge, teaching environmental conservation to
future generations, and serving the Hawaiian community
at large applied a new lens to academic science and
continues to have a global impact.
Her teachings, beliefs, and practices
are maintained by the Edith Kanaka’ole Foundation. In

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addition to the museums reviewers, the National
Women's History Museum's reviewers that I mentioned in
the first half of this meeting, we had from the
Smithsonian Healoha Johnston, a curator of AsianPacifica-American women at the Cultural History of the
Asian-Pacific-American Center.
We are also fortunate to have the
family of Edith Kanaka’ole with us today. We have
Huihui Kanahele-Mossman, granddaughter of Edith
Kanaka'ole. She's also the executive director of the
Edith Kanaka'ole Foundation. She will be speaking on
behalf of the family who reviewed the candidate
designs you'll be seeing today.
Ms. Kanahele-Mossman, would you like to
say a few words to the committee?
MS. KANAHELE-MOSSMAN: Yeah, aloha
(inaudible). I'm Huihui Kanahele-Mossman. Privileged
and full of gratitude and appreciation for this
opportunity to showcase what my grandmother has done
in her lifetime and the legacy that she's left for
multiple lifetimes after this.

So yeah.

Thank you

for having me, and I'm excited to see what happens

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after this.
MS. STAFFORD: Thank you so much.

And

I will be mentioning the notes that you supplied our
team when we note your preference as we move through
the candidate designs. And if the -- the committee
may pose some questions directly to you, or if you
have something you'd like to add, please don't
hesitate.
I should note that all of the candidate
designs for this Edith Kanaka'ole quarter include her
depiction and elements from her native Hawaiian
landscape. So let us begin with Reverse 1 and 1A, and
I'll ask our presenter to stay on Design 1 for now.
These designs portray Kanaka'ole with
her hair and lei po'o morphing into a Hawaiian
landscape illustrating the integration of Kanaka'ole's
work with the preservation of the land and culture.
The additional inscription (Eho mai
ka’ike)

translates as

granting the wisdom. And I hope I pronounced that
correctly. I will try it one more time actually just
to be sure. So the additional inscription is E ho mai
ka’ike, and that translates to granting the

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wisdom.
Reverse 1, which you see here, is the
preference of the family, and the Smithsonian and
museum reviewers both concur with this. The feedback
we received from the family, and I'll ask Ms.
Kanahele-Mossman to correct me if I'm wrong. This
design is a single and strong preference by the family
citing the quality and clarity of the likeness, along
with the symbolism that integrates her portrait with
the land. They feel given her accomplishments, that
this is an extremely fitting way to honor Kanaka'ole's
work.

All right.

And we also have 1A, the same

design, but using the inscription "Quarter Dollar".
Reverse 2 depicts Kanaka'ole in
traditional hula dress gesturing towards the sky and
flock of golden plovers. An ipu heke, a percussion
instrument often used in her performances, is at her
feet. A taro plant grows along the inner border.
Reverse 3 and 3A portray Kanaka'ole
performing a hula against the backdrop of a Hawaiian
landscape. So this is 3 and 3A.
Reverse 4 depicts Kanaka'ole against

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the backdrop of Akaka Falls. She is carrying an ipu
heke.

Her forward stride represents her

accomplishments of bringing forth the knowledge of
Hawaiian traditions and culture to current and future
generations.

The additional inscription of (E ho mai

ka’ike) translates again to granting the wisdom.
And finally, Reverses 5 and 5A feature
Kanaka'ole chanting in front of Rainbow Falls in Hilo,
Hawaii.

The inscription of her philosophy "Cherish

the beloved land" is arced across the top.
Dr. Brown, that concludes the candidate
designs for this portfolio.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
April. And thank you everyone on the committee. At
this point we'll turn to Joe and Mike to ask if you
have anything to share with the committee on the
designs for this coin.
MR. COSTELLO: Dr. Brown, these have
all been through coinability, so for me I have no
comment.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Joe, do you have
additional comments?

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MR. MENNA: Yes. This is Joe Menna
speaking. Dr. Brown, thank you again for the
opportunity to participate. I think these are -- no
comment. I think these -- any one of these artistic
-- from an artistic perspective, I think any one of
these will honor this woman appropriately and very
strongly. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN:

This is Lawrence

Brown. Thank you so much, Joe. And thank you, Mike.
And to the committee, as a reminder,
please before you speak, please to repeat your name.
So from the committee -- to the committee, do you have
any technical or legal questions about the program or
the designs of the quarter? And before we begin our
general session, this is the time to raise those
questions, to save your five minutes for focusing only
on the designs.
MR. VAN ALFEN: Dr. Brown, this is
Peter van Alfen. I do have a question for Joe.
CHAIRMAN BROWN:

Please proceed.

MR. VAN ALFEN: Reverses 3 and 3A, the
shading of Kanaka'ole's arms and neck and face, how

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would that be done on the coin?
MR. MENNA: This is Joe Menna speaking,
Peter. And April, you check me if I'm stepping out of
line.

A lot of the heavy shading that has been

present in our designs over the years is something I'm
trying to coach away from because I think it tends to
distract from the form and the designs themselves. In
this case, I think there's -- it works and there's
enough information for the sculptor to be able to -our sculptors all have enough experience to go -- to
read the forms as presented here clearly enough.
But I share your concern about the
shading.

And it's not an indictment of our efforts.

It's just an effort to -- it's just a statement about
improving our efforts.

So I think this is just fine.

This is eminently sculptable.
MR. VAN ALFEN:

Okay.

Thank you.

CHAIRMAN BROWN: Are there any other
questions from committee members regarding any legal
or technical aspects of the designs? Seeing none or
hearing none, let us begin our conversation. I would
like to remind us all to please try to keep your

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comments to five minutes or less and identify yourself
prior to speaking. We'll be keeping track of time,
and I will indicate when time is up and do my
diplomatic best to in fact do so at the appropriate
time when you get through with your last syllable.

I

ask that members please wrap up your comments when
they are close to their five minutes.
Additionally, if any members have
questions or comments on any program, please refrain
from asking or discussing it until you are recognized
or at the end of the discussion of the program when I
will certainly ask if you have additional comments.
With that guidance, let's begin with Art.
MR. BERNSTEIN:

Good afternoon.

This

is Art Bernstein. I find myself agreeing with the
choice of the family. I certainly like Design 1 and
1A. I appreciate the way the honoree's hair and lei
integrates with the landscape. And I was very much
attracted to the meandering river, which covers a
great deal of the coin. So I'm a strong supporter of
1 and 1A. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.

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Let's turn now to Dean.
MR. KOTLOWSKI:

Thank you very much,

Mr. Chairman. This is Dean Kotlowski.

And following

up on what Art just said, I agree completely. I was
very much drawn to 1 and 1A.

I would just add that

her hair, as I'm looking at this again, it almost
seems to be dancing in a way, and I think that that's
a very, very nice artistic touch.
I am torn between 1 and 1A with the
issue of the quarter dollar versus the twenty-five
cents. And I like innovation a lot. I like the
artistry a lot on coins. There is a side of me that
is very much a traditionalist.
And initially, I was favoring 1A,
quarter dollar.

But if you look at Design 1, this is

a person who had a very, very bold impact I think as
an activist, as was discussed. And I think there is a
boldness with the 25 cents there that I think is very,
very appealing. And as we think about this program
going forward, all of the women we have been
considering on the coins in their own way were
trendsetters, pathbreakers, changemakers. And in a

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way, breaking some tradition and going with 25 cents
at some point might be a good idea. Not saying we
have to do it with this one. But I think that it’s
something worth considering.
I also would give a little bit of a
shoutout -- I think it is design 3 and 3A. I want to
go to those.

I thought that these were nice designs

as well. But I very much am in favor of either 1 or
1A. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
Dean.
I’d like to turn now to Mary.
MS. LANNIN: Okay. This is Mary
Lannin.

I would like to remind everybody that April

is Earth Day month. I think we’ve been celebrating it
for 30 years or something.

And I look at the first

two designs, 1 and 1A, and there’s just so much wisdom
looking at that.

She looks like she knows the story

of the whole earth.

I love the way her hair flows

into the river. You’re really captured by her eyes.
It's not nice to stare, but I want to stare back at
them because I think that there’s a lot of wisdom

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there.
I do like 1 more than 1A because I
think by having our eyes accustomed to see 25 cents
written out in roman numerals, that it allows us to
say, gee, what’s written on the bottom? What do you
think that means? So by not having quarter dollar
there, we can perhaps appreciate that something is
written in the Hawaiian language. So that’s all I
have to say.
This was by far my favorite design from
this portfolio. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
Mary. Let’s turn now to Donald.
MR. SCARINCI: Okay.

So, yeah, I like

-- can you year me? You can hear me, right?
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Yes. Donald, if you
can repeat your full name, first and last name,
please?
MR. SCARINCI: Okay. It’s Donald
Scarinci.

And, yes, I think we’re all going to

probably agree that it’s between 1 and 1A. And I am
sure Dennis is going to suggest we do 1 because the 25

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cent -- you know, with the 25 and the cent sign makes
it a little cool.

I do like the design.

I think it’s

a -- again, this has been a great portfolio. And, you
know, this is another, you know, profound design with
the way the head and the hair and the -- you know, the
fusion of Edith and the land is really -- tells the
story.
So I support number 1. I think it’s a
compelling design. Another set of kudos, Joe, go to
the artists. You know, you are clearly making a
difference there with the artists. Good job.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
Donald. I really appreciate those comments. Let’s
turn to Mike.
MR. MORAN: Thank you, Dr. Brown.
is Mike Moran.

I too am with 1 and 1A.

This

I am

undecided as to whether I want to go with quarter
dollar or 25 cents.

That will come at the last

minute.
I want to point out one thing.

And

that is the design element that actually really makes
this -- yes it’s cool with the hair buns in, with the

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land. It is the river, the creative use of negative
space the defines the face as well as the land and the
blending of the land with her hair. That to me is the
element in this design that really sets it apart.
It is what is lacking in some of the
others -- I’m not going into specifics, but they are
heavy on detail and light on negative space, which
won’t show up in a quarter.
So that’s where I am.

And somebody

will tell me whether I’m going to vote 1 or 1A. Thank
you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
Mike. Let’s now turn to Sam.
MR. GILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My
colleagues always -- they never cease to educate me on
so many things, so many levels. But 1 and 1A are
clearly the winners for me.
designs.

I like all of the

I think they’re really quite lovely.

I

agree with Dean on the hula dance there and the -what is that, 3 and 3A. But I too am torn between 25
cents and quarter dollar.

Maybe Dennis can help me

push me over one side or the other. But either of

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those designs are really, really elegant and pretty.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
That was Sam Gill. We’re going to now turn to Robin
Salmon. Robin?
MS. SALMON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
This is Robin Salmon. And 1 and 1A were the two
designs that grabbed me. The organic sort of art
nouveau feel of both of those designs really appeal,
as well as the symbolism for the person who is being
honored. Whether it’s 25 cents or quarter dollar, I
would go in either direction.
I also would point out I think that 3
and 3A were quite lovely designs. And if it had -- it
also included the inscription in Hawaiian, I would
have thought more closely about both of those. But 1
and 1A are my choices. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
Let’s turn now to Dennis.
MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. And
thank you, Ms. Kanahele-Mossman.

It’s nice to have

you here.

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I was going to save my comments on how
the denomination is spelled out for after a discussion
of the design, but I think I might discuss it now just
because people have mentioned it. But before I do, I
would say that I love the designs that depict her
actually dancing, physically dancing. But I think it
was Dean who made a comment that her hair itself in
reverse 1 is evocative of dance.
that resonated with me.

And I don’t know,

I like that concept.

But I

am curious to hear from Huihui about the family’s
discussion of whether to show her dancing or not. But
before that, Number 1 and 1A, they are both lovely
designs. Beautiful depictions. I agree with my
colleagues.
But just to comment a moment on the
denomination. I am a bit of a traditionalist as well.
But -- and since 1892, the denomination has been
spelled out as quarter dollar on the quarter dollar.
I am okay with an alphanumeric and symbolic depiction
of it though.

I think that’s okay.

What I would say

to the Mint is be prepared for criticism if the
numerals two-five and the cent sign are used, and have

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some answers ready for the hobby community and the
numismatic community. Get head of the criticism
through op eds, feature articles, commentary, and
analysis that will convince collectors that this
change is thoughtful, it’s deliberate, it’s elegant,
and it does have precedent. That would be my advice.
We know the criticism will come. So my
advice is address it proactively. We saw criticisms
when the great Augustus Saint-Gaudens designed the 10
and 20 dollar gold pieces that came out in 1907 and
1908.

And Congress kind of had to backtrack and

change its mind. And I don’t want that to have to
happen here. I think that this criticism could be
addressed.
That said, I think that reverse 1 -- I
like that use of the denomination. I actually wish it
were a little bit smaller.

I think that it gives a

lot of weight to the 25 cents.
Dean, you mentioned its boldness. It
certainly is bold. And there is something appealing
about that. Maybe just making the cent sign a bit
smaller.

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And again, Donald, I agree with you as
well. We don’t want to get into design by committee.
But if I were just sitting down with the artist before
this were presented, I think that would have been my
advice, make 25 cent a little bit smaller, or at least
make the cent sign a bit smaller.
That concludes my comments, but I am
curious to hear our liaison’s analysis of dance versus
non-dance. And I think Joe may have also been raising
his hand. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: If we may, let’s get
through all the reviews and then we’ll come back to
both Joe as well as the liaison. Thank you.
REPORTER: Will the last speaker
identify themselves?
CHAIRMAN BROWN: I’m sorry. This is
Lawrence brown.
REPORTER: No.

The speaker before

that.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: The speaker before
that was Dennis Tucker:
MR. TUCKER: That was Dennis Tucker.

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CHAIRMAN BROWN: So let us then go
forward with Peter.
MR. VAN ALFEN: Thank you, Dr. Brown.
This is Peter van Alfen.
I am on board with 1 and 1A as well. I
think that these are great designs. Mike’s comments
about the river and the negative space, I love the
flow of that. That shape on the coin I think works
really well.
That said, I think that the 25 cents
actually fills that space or works better in that
space than quarter dollar, the inscription quarter
dollar does.

I think quarter dollar there just looks

a little awkward, frankly.

It is rather large and

just does not fill the space as elegantly as the 25
cents. So all of Dennis’s comments aside I think just
from a design perspective, the 25 cents does work
better.
I am on board as well with trying to
make it maybe a little bit smaller just so it’s not as
bold and let that river flow as it were.
All of those comments aside, I do like

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3 and 3A as well.

I think that there’s -- it’s a

really lovely and interesting design. My only concern
about that would be whether or not the figure there
would be morphing into the background inadvertently
whereas 1 and 1A, the morphing is deliberate. And
Robin’s comment about that being -- or having an art
nouveau aspect I think is very good. I was trying to
find a way to express that deliberate morphing, and I
think the art nouveau aspect certainly hits it on the
nail -- or hits the nail on the head.
Those are my comments. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
Peter. Let’s turn to now

Dr. Fuller.

DR. FULLER: Thank you, Dr. Brown. I
think this is a very strong set of designs. I think
all of them have -- certainly all of them have
artistic merit.

They are very detailed.

But I will

go with my colleagues and I will choose between 1 and
1A, probably with a preference for 1A. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much. Dr.
Fuller
REPORTER: If the speaker could

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identify himself.
DR. FULLER: Dr. Harcourt Fuller.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: And this is Lawrence
Brown. I echo the comments of my colleagues regarding
1 and 1A. I must confess, 3 and 3A also were really
pleasing to me. And with respect to the -- just the
presentation of 25 cents versus quarter dollar, I
think that for this design, it sort of sets it off in
a different way with 25 cents than what quarter dollar
be. So I would lean towards in fact the 25 cents. I
certainly have no objection to decreasing the size.
But I think from the standpoint of just the
appearance, the appearance, the 25 cents would in fact
stimulate the conversation that Dennis was referring
to.

And it certainly makes sense that we are

proactive in explaining the artistic aspects of 25
cents versus a quarter dollar in this sense.
So at this point, I’d like to ask are
there any additional comments or motions from members
of the CCAC at this point?
Not at this point. Then let’s in fact

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turn to Joe. Do you have additional comments between
you and Mike?
MR. MENNA: Mike, do you have anything
else to say? This is Joe Menna.
MR. COSTELLO: I don’t have anything,
Joe. This is Mike.
MR. MENNA: Okay. Dr. Brown, yeah,
just regarding 1 and 1A.
One aside, I have to compliment Dr.
Fuller on the hat that he had on previously and took
off. I love that.

One love.

One love always.

Anyway, concerning the 25 cents and the
quarter dollar, you know, change for the sake of
change is novelty and not necessarily good. Nor is
maintaining tradition for the sake of tradition. I
understand the concerns. But frankly, the primary
concern for me, for my group as artists and as the
chief engraver of the United States Mint, is that the
best design -- the best possible design be the one
that survives the process. And for me, 25 cents here
works the best. I like the scale of it. But it’s not
because I like 25 cents. It’s the shape of this --

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the shape -- the configuration as just visual elements
lets the water -- lets that water flow from the right
side. It sweeps over to the left through that very
nicely.

And it also works well with the text below

it. Because if you look at the way the text below it
kind of angles up towards the 25 cents and then brings
you up to her name, that’s very nice.

Quarter dollar

is equally appropriate, but quarter dollar in that
space on 2 in my opinion, it freezes the design there.
You have this beautiful flow and then all of the
sudden this hard horizontal, horizontal. It’s this
horizontal brick of letters that stops the flow in my
opinion visually.
So therefore, I think the 25 cents just
visually works better.
The debate between traditional and
alphanumeric, that’s not my place to discuss.

But

just visually I think 25 cents at this full scale, if
anything, maybe I would -- one thing I’m not a big fan
of, frankly, is when say the dollar sign or the cent
is the same size or bigger than the letters
themselves, the numbers themselves. So I would

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probably keep 25 the same size, but maybe just shrink
down the cent symbol a teeny bit.
But that’s all I have to say, Doctor.
Thank you for your time.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you, Joe. As
always, your comments are very thoughtful. We really
appreciate that.
At this point, I would like to turn
back to our liaison. Ms. Kanahele-Mossman, based on
what you’ve heard, do you have any additional comments
you would like to share with the committee?
MS. KANAHELE-MOSSMAN: No.

I fully

appreciate all of the comments that were made by the
committee.
I just want to address that question in
regards to hula versus her not doing the hula in the
art.

You know, I don’t think that that was a point

for us to make, whether she is dancing hula or not
dancing hula.

I mean, understand that our tradition

of hula, which continues on and grows on even to this
present day and well in the future, comes from her
line. But our appreciation of that first design

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reflects all of the comments that were made so far,
the fact that her as that individual that really,
really understood intimately her environment and this
island particularly, because this is her island.

And

that mountain in the background, because that was -that is the mountain that she sees from the place that
she was born on the northeast side of this island,
that mountain stands out. And so the fact that all of
those elements are part of that first design is -- was
something that we really appreciated.

And the fact

that the river, which is -- it’s the Wailuku River.
It's the biggest river in the state, which is on the
biggest island in the state.

That originates from

that very mountain, which runs through where she comes
from.

Again, the northeast side of this island was

also a big element for us to relate what this art in
this particular design has to what is actually
happening in our environment here on this island.
The other thing that I would like to
add is the appreciation of the language. That has
shown up on this design. She was one of the biggest
advocates for the language at the time and one of the

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biggest reasons why we have such a successful comeback
of the Indigenous language. And the fact that that
statement, E H. MAI KA .IKE, comes from chant or an
oli that she composed. And it is prevalent throughout
the islands.

There is a huge population of people

that actually know that particular chant. And the fact
that it’s there on that design is another reason why
we appreciated that design.
But again, thank you for everybody’s
comments on this, and thank you to the artists who
worked so hard. We love all the designs and all the
time and talent that it took to make all of those
designs. So, you know, mahalo i. .oe to all of you
who took that time to regard my grandmother in this
way.
REPORTER: And this is the court
reporter. This is Huihui Kanahele-Mossman?
MS. KANAHELE-MOSSMAN: Yes, thank you.
Huihui Kanahele Mossman.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
ma’am. We really appreciate your comments, your
thoughts. We ask the committee members if you have

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further discussion on this design.
Hearing none, the Committee will now
score the reverse designs for the 2023 Edith
Kanaka’ole quarter.
Each of you should have received a copy
of the score sheet in your email packets from the U.S.
Mint.

Please email or text your scores to Greg

Weinman. Greg will then tally the scores and will
present the results.

We hope that we do no longer

than ten minutes. We may be shorter than that for the
scoring so that Greg can report it back to us.
So let’s take a maximum of ten minutes
to send your scores so that Greg can tally them for
us.
REPORTER:

We are off the record at

1:34 p.m.
(Break)
REPORTER: We are back on the record at
1:42 p.m.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: This is Lawrence
Brown. We are back.

Recognize Greg Weinman, counsel

to the CCAC, to present the results of the scoring

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sheets.
MR. WEINMAN: Good afternoon.

Once

again, with all members scoring, the high possible
score is 33 points.
Design 1 received 32 points and is the
highest scoring design.
1A received 20 points, Reverse 2
received five points, Reverse 3 received nine points.
Reverse 3A received 10 points, Design Reverse 4
received seven points, Reverse 5 received five points,
and Reverse 5A received five points.

Once again,

Design 1 was the high scoring design with 32 points.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
Greg. Are there any motions? I see, Dennis, your hand
is up.
MR. TUCKER: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would make a motion that we ask the mint to modify
the size of the cent sign in Reverse 1 as Joe
mentioned and otherwise accept that reverse design as
presented.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Is there a second?
MR. VAN ALFEN: This is Peter Van

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Alfen.

I’ll second that motion.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Is there further

discussion or debate?
Hearing none -- and I’m assuming that - Dennis, your hand is up.
MR. TUCKER: Sorry.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: If all discussion is
concluded, then I will ask -- call for the question.
All those in favor of the motion, please signify by
saying aye.
(Participants respond.)
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Opposed, nay? It
appears that the motion is passed.
And I want to thank you, our liaison,
Ms. Kanahele-Mossman. Thank you for sharing your time
and your efforts in advancing the legacy, clearly, of
a very talented American. And furthermore, advancing
the knowledge of all of us Americans about your
grandmother. This has indeed been a privilege for us
serving on the CCAC.
Do you have additional comments, ma’am?
I see your face there. I just want to make sure we

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give you the floor is you have them.
MS. KANAHELE-MOSSMAN: No additional
comments. (Speaks Hawaiian.) A voice of gratitude to
each and every one of you for bringing my grandma’s
work and legacy to the light of the nation.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: And we thank you. And
have a great remainder of the day.

The only thing

that could make this better, if we’d have had the
meeting in Hawaii.
MS. KANAHELE-MOSSMAN: Yeah.

It’s a

brisk 71 degrees here this morning. So...
CHAIRMAN BROWN:

I see.

MS. WARREN: Dr. Brown, Mike Moran has
his hand up. This is Jennifer Warren.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Mike?
MR. MORAN: This is Mike Moran. I
managed to flip my vote.

I meant to put three on the

25 cent or the number one. I think it’s -- I would
normally just let that slide. However, I think that
since we are diverting from the norm and doing 25
cents, it’s important that we show a 33 unanimous
vote.

So if Greg would be so kind as to correct that

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mistake on my form?
MR. WEINMAN: So corrected. It has
been corrected.
MR. MORAN: Thank you.
MR. WEINMAN: Design 1 now has 33
votes.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
Mike. And thank you, Greg, as well.
Ladies and gentlemen, great job. Now
we will return to April Stafford, again, the head of
our Office of Design Management, to present the
reverse design of the next 2023 Maria Tallchief
quarter.
MS. STAFFORD: Thank you, Dr. Brown.
Maria Tallchief was widely considered
the first American prima ballerina. She broke
barriers as a Native American ballerina, exhibiting
strength and resilience both on and off the stage.
After being told she should change her
name to avoid discrimination, Tallchief refused to do
so, stating that she was proud of her Osage heritage.
Tallchief’s resilience and confidence

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led to her many prestigious roles, including her
signature role in Stravinsky’s Firebird and her bestknown role as the Sugar Plum Fairy in the Nutcracker.
She became the first American to dance with the Paris
Opera Ballet.

Throughout her life, Tallchief made it

a point to speak out against injustices and
discrimination of Native Americans. Her legacy is
well-remembered and celebrated today.
Again, in addition

to

the

aforementioned National Women’s History Museum
reviewers that I noted at the top of this meeting, the
Tallchief quarter designs were also reviewed by
experts at the Smithsonian’s National Museum of the
American Indian. They include James Adams, Senior
Historian, Jackie Swift, Repatriation

Manager,

and

Anya Montiel, Curator of American and Native American
Women’s Arts and Crafts at the National Museum of the
American Indian, and Michelle Delaney, Assistant
Director for History and Culture at the same museum.
We also have representatives and
experts with the Osage Nation that provided review.
They include Chad Renfro, Cultural Ambassador for the

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Osage Nation, Angela Pratt, speaker with the Osage
Nation Congress, Vann BigHorse, Director of the Osage
Nation Language Department, and Dr. Herman Mogri
Lookout, the Osage Nation Master Language Teacher.
Additionally, we had

Nancy

Reynolds,

who is Director of Research for the Balanchine
Foundation. And finally, of course, the designs were
reviewed by family representative Elise Paschen,
Tallchief’s daughter. We are so fortunate to have Ms.
Paschen with us today.
Ms. Paschen, would you like to say a
few words to the Committee?
MS. PASCHEN: Yes.

Thank you so much.

And I simply want to say how honored and thrilled we
are that my mother is being celebrated with the
American Women’s quarter.

And I think that the

designs that your department, April, have put together
are really stunning, and I’m looking forward to the
discussion.
MS. STAFFORD:

Thank you so much, Ms.

Paschen. We’ve really enjoyed working with you as
well.

Roger Vasquez, the design manager for this as

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well as the dollar coin program, worked hard to ensure
that all the folks who are instrumental, including our
chief engraver and all of the artists, that the
process was managed as best as it could be.

And I

think we’ve got some lovely designs to consider today
from that.
I will invite you of course if you have
commentary, you would like to add, please don’t
hesitate to do so.

The committee members may also

reach out to you with questions.
Okay, so I will note that all designs
honoring Tallchief include her depiction in balletic
pose, which is in part why we went to the Balanchine
foundation as well. Tallchief’s Osage name, which is
Wa-Xthe-Thonba, means two standards.

And it’s

depicted in Osage orthography on many of the designs.
This name was chosen by her grandmother and given to
Tallchief by the Osage in recognition for her
achievements and is a reference to her life in two
worlds.
I will note before we see the designs
that reverses 3 and 3A include a constellation of

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stars as a reference to the Osage creation stories as
well as stage backdrops known in Tallchief’s
performances. And Reverse 4 includes the additional
inscriptions, “America’s Prima Ballerina”.
So with that, we will move through the
candidate designs. Reverse 1, 1A, Reverse 2, 3, 3A,
Reverse 4. I’ll pause to note that this is the family
member’s strongly-preferred design, and it’s also the
preference of reviewers at the Smithsonian and is
supported by the National Women’s History Museum
reviewers. And finally, Reverse 5.
Dr. Brown?
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
April.
Joe, do you or Mike have anything you
want to share with the Committee on the design of this
coin?
MR. MENNA: This is Joe Menna. I will
defer to my supervisor, Mike Costello, first.
MR. COSTELLO: I have no comment, Dr.
Brown. They all look great.
MR. MENNA: Dr. Brown, this is again

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Joe Menna speaking. If I may, not to malign any
efforts. Understand my point of view is every single
design we present before the Committee -- and April,
you stop me if I’m not supposed to say this -- I try
to make sure that it’s our very best effort. Because
even if it doesn’t get selected, it goes into the
press and it becomes public no matter what.

So we

want to make sure that you get our best. But I think
from a design perspective, I like the fourth and the
fifth ones on the screen here. I can’t read the
numbers. I forget which ones they are. I don’t like
the cropping of the one -- I think when you -- yeah.
I think it’s an elegant -- when you crop an arm or a
leg off the side of a coin -- when I was in school, if
you cropped a bust -- if you were just sculpting a
three-dimensional bust and you cropped it inelegantly
or you did a relief and you cropped it inelegantly, my
teacher would admonish you it’s amputating the figure.
And I don’t mean that to be graphic, but it does look
awkward to me.
But I think the fuller version of this
coin is beautifully done. And I think the family’s --

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the stakeholder selection is the perfect one visually.
I think there are some anatomical challenges that were
not fully met by the artist, not because of their lack
of ability, but because this is -- ballet is perhaps
one of the most absolutely challenging things for any
visual artist to try and represent because the forms - the music of the body has to be so perfectly
conveyed.

Otherwise, it looks awkward.

Especially

when the anatomy is not fully there. So I think the
artists did their best. But I like to say anatomy is
like a language, a foreign language. And unless you
speak it all the time, you tend to forget it. So it’s
obvious which artists have been practicing their
language skills.

And I think the family could not

have chosen a better selection.
From that artistic point of view, I’m
not -- I don’t mean to pontificate. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
Joe.
Now turning to the Committee, asking
any of the members of the Committee whether or not you
have any technical or legal questions about the

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program or the designs for this quarter.
Art?
MR. BERNSTEIN: Hello, this is Art
Bernstein.

I have a technical question on the use of

the term America’s, possessive,

apostrophe

S,

America’s Prima Ballerina, which appears on Reverse 4.
This was a question I raised during our administrative
meeting.

And at that point, we were -- we learned

that the original wording had America’s First Prima
Ballerina, and that that had been modified for a
variety of reasons.
I am still questioning the use of the
term America’s Prima Ballerina. From a technical
standpoint, I don’t believe such a title actually
exists, that someone can be America’s, possessive,
prima ballerina.
And I learned following our
administrative meeting that the subject matter expert
had a point on this subject, and I think there’s some
relevance to her comments in the memo that I saw.
I believe she was suggesting that American Prima
Ballerina or just Prima Ballerina would be a more

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accurate term.
And my question is are we correct in
using America’s, apostrophe S, Prima Ballerina?
MS. STAFFORD: Yes, I’ll take that.
This is April Stafford. Thank you for your question.
As you can imagine, if the notes that
we shared with Dr. Brown in response to this query in
the administrative meeting wended their way to you,
you can see the immense amount of effort, research,
outreach, consideration that went into what is an
appropriate inscription.

And so we are confident in

the inscription America’s Prima Ballerina, that that
is appropriate.

And I would note that the expert at

the Balanchine Foundation as well as a dance historian
that we reached out to were fully comfortable with
America’s Prima Ballerina, but did also proffer some
other options.
I am going to ask Roger Vasquez, the
design manager, to comment further. And then also I
would ask if we can reach out to Ms. Paschen for
comment as well.
One thing I think that’s interesting is

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that not only does America’s Prima Ballerina convey a
sentiment which appropriately represents what Maria
Tallchief means to this nation and in the
accomplishment of getting on the world stage of
ballet, but it’s also the title of autobiographies and
biographies about Maria Tallchief.
So, Roger, can you expound on that
further, pleases?
MR. VASQUEZ: Sure thing. So Maria
Tallchief and her husband at the time, George
Balanchine, brought ballet to America as a uniquelyAmerican art form that was separate from what was
being done in Russia. So they really became the
representatives of American Ballet on the world stage.
And so the sentiment at that time was that Maria
Tallchief was viewed as America’s Prima Ballerina.
And that’s where the root of that comes from. And
again, as April mentioned, it’s a title that she used
in two autobiographies and was supported in a number
of other articles on the subject.
MS. STAFFORD: Thank you, Roger. And
Ms. Paschen, would you like to add anything further?

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MS. PASCHEN:

I think Roger described

it very well. And, you know, my mom -- my mother was
the very first -- you know, I think that in the ballet
world, they consider my mother as America’s first
prima ballerina.

And I think that both April and

Roger did a good job of describing it, so I’m going to
let them carry the weight with their words.

But I

agree wholeheartedly with both of them.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Are there any other
questions or comments from any other committee members
on this matter or any other technical or legal issues?
Hearing none, let us then begin our
consideration.

I would like to remind members again

to please try to keep comments to five minutes or less
and to please identify yourself prior to speaking. We
will of course be keeping track of time and I will
indicate when time is up in the most diplomatic way
that I can. I ask that members please wrap up their
comments when they are close to their five minutes.
Additionally, if any members have questions or
comments on any program or aspect of design, please
refrain from asking or discussing it until after you

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are recognized or at the end of discussion of this
program when I will certainly ask if there additional
comments.
With that guidance, let’s begin with
Sam Gill.
MR. GILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Once again, the entire portfolio of these dancers is
superb. Any single one of them would make a beautiful
coin. I tend to go to Number 4 as the family and
stakeholders did. It tells the whole story about her.
You don’t have to wonder who she is or what she is.
It's just a beautiful, beautiful depiction and a
beautiful, beautiful coin in general.
If I had to go to a number two, it
would be 3 because it does, as Joe said, it does
include the entire form of the ballerina. And I do
think that would be just an elegant coin as well.
But my vote is certainly for number
four. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you. That was
Sam Gill. We’ll next go to Mary Lannin.
MS. LANNIN: Thank you very much, Mr.

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Chairman. I tend to agree with my friend, Sam Gill.
Number 4 is just an extraordinary design. It’s
strength and beauty. I mean, can you imagine the
training that she had to have gone through to do that
and to make it look so effortless? It’s just
incredible.
I like America’s, with the apostrophe,
Prima Ballerina.

I have no problem with that at all.

I would like to make a comment about
the other Number

3. I like the fact that there was a

constellation in the background, but I also liked her
leg and toe separating the words quarter and dollar on
that. And it shows the whole ballet move.
But I am going to give if not all, most
of my pointes to Number 4 because I think it’s a
really beautiful design. Thank you very much, Mr.
Chairman.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
Let’s turn to now Donald.
MR. SCARINCI:

Again, you know, a bunch

-- every single one of these designs is beautiful, has
merit.

Again, compliments to the artists, compliments

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to Joe.
So I tend to agree -- although, listen,
I mean, I could speak about each one, but I’m not
going to do that because each one of them has some
really specific artistic interests, which I’m sure Joe
knew when he selected what we’re seeing. Each one of
them is beautiful.

But I think if I had to pick one

of these, I would agree with Mary and the others that
Number 4 would be the one to pick.

You know, it’s got

a lot of symmetry, a lot of balance. And my only
concern is with all of these, it’s the quarter size
pallet.

But I think it is what it is, and we’ve done

it before.

You know, the Maya Angelou coin had the

full figure as well.

And it was very successful and

it was a very pretty sculpt, very pretty coin. So I
will be supporting Number 4 depending on what else I
hear in the dialogue.
REPORTER: Will the speaker identify
himself?
MR. SCARINCI: Donald Scarinci.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Let’s turn now to
Mike.

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MR. MORAN: I too like 4. She is in midmotion.

You know she’s going to come down.

And it

just really does convey more motion than any of the
others. There is no question it’s not a pose.

It’s

just well done. This is the only set of the portfolio
today that I’m giving merit to all of them for.

It’s

a good portfolio. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you.

That was

Mike Moran.
Let’s turn now to Robin, Robin Salmon.
MS. SALMON: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
This is Robin Salmon.

I too liked all of these and

had a difficult time deciding which one I liked the
best. I do gravitate toward the full figure. And so
Number 3 and Number 4 were the ones that seemed to
appeal most to me. Number 3 because it’s a beautiful
pose.

It does have the stars that symbolize her

tribal stories. And she is wearing one costume.

Then

in Number 4, she is wearing a different costume. And
Number 4, strength and elegance. It’s just exquisite.
I usually don’t go for as much
lettering as this design has, but I think it’s

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important to say America’s Prima Ballerina. And this
time it’s the Firebird costume.

And the costumes

might be something that we should think about also in
relation to the next coin that we talk about.

But I

am probably weighted more toward Number 4 with the
second being Number 3. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
Let’s turn now to Dennis, Dennis Tucker.
MR. TUCKER: This is Dennis Tucker.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And thank you, Ms. Paschen, for
your participation in this process.
Number 3 is lovely. I think that’s a
very beautiful design. And as Robin just said, it’s a
delightful pose.

But Reverse 4 has a wonderful,

unique energy that we don’t often see on coins, as
Mike pointed out. So I think this is a beautiful
design. It has motion and it has a well-balanced
typography. I like the phrase America’s Prima
Ballerina.

And I also like the inclusion of her

Native American name.
Ms. Paschen, I would like to address
you personally for a moment. Something that -- to me,

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something that marks a truly successful circulating
coin is if it connects emotionally to people, whether
it’s beautiful or not. But most often, the beautiful
ones do. But if it connects emotionally, then it’s
successful.

And I would like to point out a

connection that your mother’s life has to the 2022
Native American dollar coin which honors Ely S.
Parker. He was known as a warrior in two worlds, just
as I think your mother was a warrior in two worlds.
Wa-Xthe-Thonba, if I pronounced that correctly.
My daughter is six years old, and she
is proudly Filipino-American.

She says I’m half

Asian, I’m half American. She is very proud of that.
She is also taking ballet. She is going to love this
coin. And she is going to love learning about your
mother, and I’m going to love teaching her about your
mother with this coin. So, again, I want to thank you
for your participation. Thanks to your mother for all
she did as America’s Prima Ballerina. Thank you.
MS. PASCHEN: Thank you, Mr. Tucker. I
appreciate that.

You’re making me a little teary-

eyed. Thank you so much.

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MR. TUCKER:

As am I.

CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
Dennis. That was in fact not only thoughtful, but
indeed caused many of us to reach for our
handkerchiefs. I really mean that.
Let’s move on to Dean.
MR. KOTLOWSKI: Thank you, Mr.
Chairman. This is Dean Kotlowski. And I just want to
point out a few things. This is the third portfolio
that we’ve done today where language other than
English has been featured. And I think that’s worth
pointing out and applauding this program for the
diversity and inclusion aspect of it.
I also think of ballet as a very
classical form of performing art, and these are very
classic designs. And so for these reasons, I think
quarter dollar, going with the tradition of quarter
dollars as opposed to 25 cents is appropriate. And
the designs that people are favoring do have quarter
dollar on it.
Now, I said earlier with the design
portfolio that I saw something. And with this one, I

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saw everything.

So my ideas were very, very fluid.
The one that I did not like was the one

that Joe pointed out, and I believe it’s 3A. And for
the reasons Joe commented on. He used the word
amputate. I wasn’t going to sue that word, but that’s
what I was thinking of.

So I did not like this

design.
If we can move on to Number 4. I kept
this one in the back of my head.

And it was

interesting to see that so many people like the
design, so many of the stakeholders and liaisons like
the design.

And I guess what held me back just a

little bit is that it’s very, very textural and the
figure is very, very small.

But I didn’t write it

off. And I continued to think about it and the
comparison with the Maya Angelou quarter. I made that
comparison in my own mind, as did Don a little bit
earlier. You had with the Maya Angelou quarter the
outstretched arms and here you have the outstretched
legs. And I think it’s really a wonderful design.
And I also would like to point out that
I like Design 3. And I don’t know if we can go to

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those designs as I’m talking. It doesn’t seem like we
are. Yeah. I like the reasons that people have
discussed.
But I also like Design 1A. And 1A has
not been discussed. So if we could go to 1A. I’m not
pushing hard for 1A, but I’m going to give 1A some
support because you have the feeling here that she has
finished a performance.

She is basking in what she

has done, her triumph. You can see the muscles on her
body.

You can sort of see muscles on her face.

A

sense of strength, perseverance, success, and triumph.
So I’ll be giving that some points as well.
But I have become convinced more and
more that Number 4 is the way to go. Thank you very
much, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
Appreciate that, Dean.
Let’s turn now to Peter.
MR. VAN ALFEN: Thank you, Dr. Brown.
This is Peter Van Alfen.
Like Dennis, I am also the father of a
budding dancer. And it’s been a real pleasure over

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the course of the last week or two to tell my daughter
about Maria Tallchief and show her some videos and
things of the sort. And it really has been quite
enjoyable to work on this portfolio.
And, Ms. Paschen, I have to say it’s a
real pleasure to have you here.
I fully support Number 4 as a preferred
reverse for this. I think that this is an incredibly
dynamic image.

And the more that I’ve looked at this,

I have come to realize that part of the reason I think
that this really works is the spotlight, if I can call
it that. The circle within the circle of the design
itself.

And I think that that obviously focuses the

eye not just on the figure itself, but also on the
Osage inscription there as well. And I think that
both up close and from a distance that circle within
the circle really makes this composition just pop and
really makes it work very, very well. So I am fully
drawn to it. I fully support it, and those are my
comments. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
Next up is Art.

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MR. BERNSTEIN: Hello, this is Art
Bernstein. I like Design 4 and Design 3 for all the
reasons previously stated. I would just add with
Design 3, there was reference in some of our earlier
discussions about negative space. And I think Design
3 has the advantage of that -- of a great deal of
negative space.

I like the symmetry, and I thought

the constellation just added an additional element to
the story that is intriguing. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
Let’s turn now to Dr. Fuller.
DR. FULLER: Thank you, Dr. Brown.
This is Dr. Harcourt Fuller. Thank you for your
presence, Ms. Paschen.
This was a wonderful portfolio.

I

think that I like aspects of several of the designs,
even though I have decided which designs I will
support.
Reverse 1, I actually like the 25
cents. I think it’s the only one actually with the
alphanumeric symbol on there. And it stands out for
me.

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I really like Design 3 for all the
reasons that my colleagues have stated.

I like how

the feet against sort of separate quarter from dollar.
And I think the pose is a very elegant pose.

So I

will be giving that some support.
I also liked -- and I’ll come back go
4, but I also liked Reverse 5.

I just really -- I

mean, notwithstanding the fact that part of one of her
leg is not seen, but I just think that is a striking
pose, if I may.

So I like that one.

But ultimately,

I will agree with the majority that Reverse 4 is
simply striking, elegant.

I have forgotten which one

of my colleagues said, it’s almost like she’s -- you
know, she’s in the spotlight because of that circle.
I like the language there as well and everything else.
So I will be giving that full support. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN:

Thank you so much.

From my perspective, I also salute the
comments. But first, Joe, let me thank you and your
team, because this portfolio was phenomenal. I really
appreciate it.
Secondly, let me say that I also lean

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towards in fact Design 4 for the reasons it just seems
that she is floating on air with a spotlight actually
shining on her. To me, that has a symbolism that is
very different than what we have seen in the past. So
for that reason, I am leaning towards Four.
Let’s now turn to ask if there are any
additional comments or motions from members of the
CCAC. Before we do that, Joe, I see that you have a
comment.
MR. MENNA: Yes, sir, Dr. Brown. I’m
just trying to turn my comment button on.
This is Joe Menna. Thank you, Dr.
Brown. Just a quick correction. My phrasing about
how the arms and legs went off the edge of the coin
was inappropriate, and I shouldn’t have used that
word. I should have -- that was quoting my teacher
from a different time. And that should have been
phrased more sensitively. So I apologize to the
Committee.
All credit due to the artist.
Everybody keeps given me credit for this stuff. It’s
the artist, not me. And it’s April and my -- if I

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have any kind of latitude to affect any changes, it’s
because of the support system that I’m within. And
it's a bigger team.
People who are citing Number 3, just to
add on what I should have said at the beginning.

When

I first saw that, I just saw -- I like watching Danny
Kaye and old movies.

And I just watched Hans

Christian Andersen, and this reminded me of a
ballerina in a snow globe. It’s so magically
constructed.

It’s a beautiful coin.

Just visually

it's very -- there is a wonderful feeling here.
But more specifically in regard to
Number 4, I think it was -- was it Peter that -somebody mentioned textural -- concerns about texture.
As Chief Engraver, I was a little remiss here.

I

should have leaned into this more. The great field is
misleading. That probably will not be textured. That
would be field.

And the circle would not be sunken

in, that would be something -- and correct me if I’m
wrong, Mike -- sinking a circle into the middle of the
coin is just not a good idea.

So more likely that

would probably be polished in a way that on the proof

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version where it’s very pronounced and does shine like
a circle and via the positive nature of it in relief,
it will also stand out.
So I just want to manage expectations
when you folks -- if this does get picked, when the
Committee does see the final product, I don’t want to
think that their requests were dishonored.

So when

the field is not textured as the gray implies here, I
just want to make sure that you -- that the Committee
understands that’s why. We’re not deliberately
disregarding your comments, if that makes sense.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you, Mike.
Really appreciate your comments. I’m sorry -- Joe, we
appreciate your comments.
Let me now turn to the members of the
CCAC to see if they have any additional comments or
motions.
And since in fact Joe opened up the
can, ask any other members of the Mint. Because he
pointed out how important other members of the design
staff are really fantastic in what we see.

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Hearing none, I’m going to turn to Ms.
Paschen to see if you would like to add anything based
on the comments that you have heard or on anything
that you think might be an additional morsel that we
should consider as we make our scores.
MS. PASCHEN: I really appreciated the
comment of the gentleman whose daughter -- I know that
we had two studying ballet. The first one, sorry, I
forget your name. But about this emotional response.
For me when I saw Number 4, I had a very emotional
response. And I think it was because since my mother
passed away, and even before my mother passed away,
she has been depicted in various illustrations. Of
late, there was a Google Doodle celebrating my mother
last year. And oftentimes I find a disconnect between
my mother and photographs of my mother and videos of
my mother and then her representation. And this coin
really spoke to me because I see my mother in all of
her glory and magnificence in this coin. And I
appreciate all of the comments that were made in terms
of just the design of the coin and the symmetry.

And

I love that idea of the spotlight and her Osage name

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in orthography underneath it. So for me, it was just
very immediate. Right away, this is the one
And, you know, with the one everyone
else has been discussing, Number 3, I just feel as if
it doesn’t capture my mother in the same way. I had
originally said that my second choice was 2, but I
think I’ve revised that to be either 1 or 1A. I feel
that 1 and 1A capture my mother, her beauty, her
elegance, and just her mean and who she is. So I had
more trouble with the ones that we had been
discussing. I think it’s a beautiful coin, Number 3.
But for me, I don’t see -- it doesn’t depict my mother
as -- I don’t know. I would want maybe even her hand,
this one. I know we had Nancy Reynolds looking at it.
But I’m not quite sure my mother would have held like
that.

I just feel like I know Nancy has been looking

at it as a Balanchine expert.
But I think Number 4 I completely
support because I see technically, design-wise. It’s
just magnificent.

And I appreciated the comment that

it will be unique and unusual if the U.S. Mint decides
to use this design. So, thank you.

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CHAIRMAN BROWN:

Joe?

You’re on Mute,

Joe.
MR. MENNA: Following Madam Tallchief’s
daughter, this is out of my lane a bit.

But the

beauty of Number 4 -- and I’m assuming the other coins
in this program is our culture tends to celebrate -when there’s folks from different communities who make
advances in sports or other popular culture venues,
they get a lot of attention. But in the arts such as
this when you have someone from another community who
is basically the Jackie Robinson, if I may say so, of
ballet in a sense. You know? This is a breakthrough
moment for our country.

It’s so important to

represent her artistically in the most perfect way.
And I just feel that Number 4 does that very
elegantly. And I’m being redundant, so thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
Joe. Let me ask now the rest of the Committee, any
further discussion?
Hearing none, the Committee will now
score the reverse candidate designs for this quarter.
Again, each of you have received a copy of your

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scoresheet emailed to you by the U.S. Mint. Please
email or text your scores to Greg Weinman. Mr.
Weinman will then tally your scores and present the
results to us hopefully within ten minutes or less.
Ladies and gentlemen, we are in recess
for a maximum of ten minutes.
(Break)
REPORTER: We are back on the record at
2:32 p.m.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: I think we may be a
little bit early. So we can wait a moment.
Court reporter, are you there?
REPORTER:

I do apologize.

We have

been on the record since 2:32. I didn’t realize I was
on mute. Please continue, Dr. Brown.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you. This is
Lawrence Brown. We are back. And I recognize Greg
Weinman, counselor to the CCAC, to present the results
from the scoring sheets.
MR. WEINMAN:

Good afternoon, Dr.

Brown. Once again, with all members scoring, the
highest score is 33 points, the potential high score.

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That said, Reverse 1 received a score
of eight points, 1A received seven points, Reverse 2
received five. Reverse 3 received 19 points. 3A
received three points. Reverse 4 received 30 points,
making that the high scoring design. And Reverse 5
received four points. So once again, with 30 points,
the Committee scored highest Reverse 4.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you, Greg.

This

is Lawrence Brown. Are there any motions?
Hearing none, seeing none, then I will
entertain a motion to accept the vote of the highest
scoring based on what we have heard.

Can we have that

motion?
MR. VAN ALFEN: This is Peter van
Alfen. So moved.
MS. SALMON: So moved.
CHAIRMAN BROWN:

So I’ll take that

Peter is making the motion and take Robin as the
second.
Any further debate? Hearing none, I
will call the question. All those in favor, say aye.
(Participants respond.)

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CHAIRMAN BROWN: Any opposed? It
appears that the motion has passed. Are there any
other further motions on this design?
Hearing and seeing none, thank you, Ms.
Paschen, for joining us today, at least this first
part of your day with us. And thank you for sharing
your time and efforts and advancing, clearly, the
legacy of a talented and phenomenal American, and for
advancing the knowledge of all of us Americans about
your mother. And I believe you will be remaining with
us for the next design.
On that note, I will turn back to
April.
MS. STAFFORD: Thank you.

Thank you,

Dr. Brown. This is April Stafford for the record.
The Native American Dollar Coin Act,
Public Law 110-82, requires the Secretary of the
Treasury to annually mint and issue new dollar coins
with reverse designs celebrating the important
contributions made by Indian tribes and individual
Native Americans to the development of the United
States and the history of the United States. The 2023

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theme is Maria Tallchief, American Indians in Ballet.
And I will give you some background.
A spectacular performance in Igor
Stravinsky’s Firebird in 1949 made a superstar of
prima ballerina Maria Tallchief. Tallchief and her
husband, George Balanchine, transformed American
classical ballet into an international leader in the
art form.
In addition to Maria Tallchief, four
other Native American ballerinas from Oklahoma
achieved international recognition in the 20th
century, including Tallchief’s younger sister,
Marjorie Tallchief Skibine, Myra Yvonne Chouteau,
Rosella Hightower, Moscelyne Larkin. Together, they
have been celebrated as the Five Moons in mural,
dance, and sculpture. And together, they inspire
generations of American Indian dancers and helped
break barriers in the dance world for other people of
color.
All of the candidate designs that you
will be seeing today feature a depiction of a
ballerina dancing and the inscriptions American

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Indians in Ballet, United States of America, and One
Dollar.
Candidate designs were reviewed by the
following. Again, Elise Paschen, daughter of Maria
Tallchief, two representatives of the National Museum
of the American Indian, including James Adams, a
senior historian, and Jackie Swift, who is
repatriation manager. Nancy Reynolds, who is director
of research for the Balanchine Foundation, Chad
Renfro, Cultural Ambassador for the Osage Nation, and
Angela Pratt, Speaker of the Osage Nation Congress.
I will share preferences of
stakeholders after moving through the candidate
designs.
So we will start with Design 1 and 1A.
These designs prominently feature a ballerina and
include the addition of five pointed stars, a
reference to Maria Tallchief and her Native American
ballet contemporaries. The constellation of stars you
see here in 1A is a reference to Osage creation
stories and stage backdrops used in some of
Tallchief’s performances. So again, you have Design 1

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and 1A.
Designs 2 and 2A feature Maria
Tallchief and have the additional inscription, Maria
Tallchief. This is Reverse 2 and 2A.
Reverses 3 -- sorry, Reverse 3 features
five figures representing Native American ballerinas.
Reverse 4 features Maria Tallchief in
the foreground with additional ballerinas in the
background. Reverse 4 also includes the additional
inscription Maria Tallchief.
And Reverse 5 features a close-up
depiction of Maria Tallchief and a pair of ballet
shoes, both framed by the ballet shoe ribbons. The
inscription Maria Tallchief is also included.
And to share with the Committee for
your consideration, we have a number of stakeholders
for our Native American Dollar Coin series, including
the National Congress of the American Indian, the
Congressional Native American Caucus of the House of
Representatives, and the Senate Committee on Indian
affairs. And of course we also should take into
consideration the family’s input on this.

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I will share that both the
Congressional Native American Caucus of the House of
Representatives and our family representative Elise
Paschen, prefer Reverse 4. The National Congress of
the American Indian cited Design 1A. And no
preference was identified by the Senate Committee on
Indian Affairs.
Ms. Paschen, would you care to say a
few words to the Committee about the design you have
identified or any further commentary on this
portfolio?
MS. PASCHEN: Do you mind just putting
them all up at once? Thank you.
So again, I commend the designers. I
mean, these are -- each one is so gorgeous. And my
initial response was I was drawn toward 2 and 2A. But
after April and Roger and I spoke several days ago, I
am of the mind that it’s important to identify and to
celebrate, you know, five Native American dancers.
And so that’s how my choice -- so I just want to first
say that I thought these designs were so beautiful. I
also thought that the last design, I think it’s Number

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5, was gorgeous. So, beautiful depictions of my
mother. I love the architecture of the Number 2 and
2A.
But I am going to vote for -- is that
Number 4, April? That was my first choice.

I’m going

to vote for Number 4 because, as I said, it was
incredible my mother is being honored with the
quarter.

And I think it’s good to spread the wealth

and to bring in to celebrate the achievement of these
five Native American dancers. I mean, it’s really
phenomenal what happened, that they all came from
Oklahoma, the Five Moons.
And I prefer this one to the other one
representing the dancers.

If you don’t mind

switching, April. Because here I had trouble -- I can
sort of see that that’s supposed to be my mother in
the foreground left. I can’t really identify my Aunt
Margie, Marjorie Tallchief Skibine. But Robert and
April were saying that I guess it wasn’t an exact
depiction.
Anyway, this is why I vote for Number
4. My first choice is Number 4.

This one I think is

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gorgeous, again.
MS. STAFFORD: Thank you. And just for
the record, the conversation I think will be
interesting because as the Committee knows, this is an
opportunity. We will have two coins in the same year
across two very different programs.

One is

circulating coin program, one a collectible, this
Native American dollar coin, that will feature
similarly-themed subjects.

So that should be

considered as well as the conversation unfolds.
Thank you, Dr. Brown.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
April. And thank
us your thoughts.

you, Ms. Paschen, for sharing with
Joe and Mike, do you have anything

you want to share with the Committee regarding the
designs for this coin?
MR. COSTELLO: I think they all look
great. And, you know, I don’t have any further
comments on these.
REPORTER: That was Mike Costello?
MR. COSTELLO: Yes.
MR. MENNA: This is Joe Menna.

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sorry, yes, that was Mike Costello.
Dr. Brown, thank you.

This is Joe

Menna. Roger or Russ, can you zoom in on the -- yeah,
that.

Again, just to manage expectations.

There is

some challenging stuff here. Similarly to the Maria
Tallchief AWQ coin, this grey field will not be
textured. This grey field will be polished. And the
lunar and circular -- the semi-lunar and circular
objects in the background, they will be raised. And
also the figures in the background will be sculpted
with an appropriate level of a relief, perhaps
partially inset into the background objects, just as
we have done with Egyptian-style relief, which has
been discussed before, in order to give prominence to
the figure in the front because her left arm is the
biggest challenge here from a sculptor’s perspective.
Shortening of that nature is very difficult to pull
off.

We’ll be able to do it just fine.

But you want

to have an ample amount of relief space to do the
overlaps and stuff like that. And same thing with her
torso being foreshortened.

So in order to maximize

the visual effect that this illustration provides,

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we’ll have to do some things -- we’ll have to -- you
know, we have a hat full of relief tricks that we can
pull out from. So I just want to make sure that the
Committee understands that the gray area will not be
textured, and any relief challenges -- and I only
bring them up because there are former Committee
members that used to address them, and I’m sure they
are present. And a lot of veterans on the Committee
know those issues well, and I just want to make sure
that everybody understands that we can definitely
sculpt this coin and make it look beautiful. Thank
you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
Joe. Now to the committee members. Do you have any
technical or legal questions about the designs for
this quarter? I see Art.
MR. BERNSTEIN: Hi. This is Art
Bernstein. And I am quickly become the literal person
on this committee. But I have what I think may be a
rookie question. And that is it’s the Native American
one dollar coin, and yet the phrasing on the coin is
American Indians in Ballet. And I was just trying to

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understand why that phrase is used rather than Native
Americans in Ballet.
MS. STAFFORD: Sure. And I’ll ask
Roger, who oversees the Native American Dollar Coin
Program, to add in if I don’t do a proper job.
So we’ve had discussions, again, with a
myriad of stakeholders involved in this program to
understand exactly what is appropriate.

And we do

have input, particularly from our representatives, a
deep bunch of representatives at the National Museum
of the American Indian, that in essence communicates
they are both acceptable, but American Indian from
their position is more broadly-used across our country
by tribes and nations. And so when able, certainly it
is welcome from their vantagepoint.
Roger, I hope I did at least a decent
job of explaining that. If you could add to that, I
would appreciate it.
MR. VASQUEZ: That was April Stafford.
And this is Roger Vasquez.
Our folks at the National Museum of the
American Indian recommend using the term American

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Indian where possible. While both terms, American
Indian and Native American are acceptable, American
Indian is often preferred. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
And I see a hand up of Dean.
MR. KOTLOWSKI:
to know this, Art.

Yeah.

I am very happy

I am currently working on a book

on American Indian policy. And the proposal went
through peer review and I have a contract. And I used
American Indians throughout, and there were no issues.
So I think that that’s where things are at this point.
Maybe a few decades ago, Native
Americans seemed to be the academic term of choice.
And again, as has been said, a lot of American Indian
tribal leaders have still been attracted to the idea
of using American Indians.
in short form.

Sometimes you use Indians

And when you’re making a contrast,

it’s nice to use Indians with, again, the counterpoint
being non-Indians, meaning everyone else.
MR. VASQUEZ: I appreciate the
explanation.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Very good.

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there’s no other questions from members of the
Committee, let us begin our consideration for this
last design for this day. So you guys are all in fact
experts about this guidance.

So let us begin.

I

would like to remind us all to remember to try to keep
your comments to five minutes or less. And ladies and
gentlemen, let us in fact go for the home run and make
sure we identify ourselves before we begin speaking.
And please refrain from asking or discussing anything
until after you are recognized or at the end of
discussion of this program, when I will certainly ask
if there are additional questions.
With that guidance, again, please
remember to identify yourself before you begin
speaking. Let us begin with Sam.
MR. GILL:

Thank you, Dr. Brown.

This

is Sam Gill. Once again, just beautiful, beautiful
designs. All would make fine, fine coins. Beautiful
coins, elegant coins.

Starting with Number 4, that’s

my first choice. I can see all the elements that need
to be there. It’s going to really draw your eye in.
And I think it’s going to be a grand coin.

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Number 3 is

exceptionally

beautiful,

but I also see that Maria Tallchief -- it would be
nice to be able to point her out with the others since
she led the way.
And then I would like to give a special
mention to Number 5, because I love the way the artist
took the ribbon from the shoes and draped it all the
way around. And United States of America is written
there. So I think that’s -- and also the depiction of
the face of Maria Tallchief is just really beautiful.
So Number 4 is my choice. Thank you,
Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
Next up is Mary.
MS. LANNIN: Okay.

This is Mary

Lannin. I think you know what I’m going to say. I
love Number 4.

I found it -- if you kind of look at

it and then just let your eyes go softly out of focus
for aa little bit -- you know, depending on your age,
that might be easier for some of us than others -Maria Tallchief’s leg could be the stem of a flower.
And all the rest of the ballerinas in the background

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are the petals. And she comprises part of the flower
itself.

And I know this is to be the Five Moons, but

I also thought it looked like a flower. So I really
liked that.
We talked about having -- a long time
ago, having sort of a bridge between the American
Women Quarters with Maria Tallchief and this
particular American Indian coin. And I think that we
have it in the feather that’s on Maria Tallchief’s
head. It’s the same as on the other coin that we
picked, and I believe obviously that it’s probably the
same artist. So I’m going to give all my votes to
Number 4. I think it’s an extremely beautiful coin.
I would like to say that I like Number 3. But again,
it becomes -- I can see which one Maria Tallchief is.
But it’s sort of like a generic scene of ballerinas,
and I don’t know that’s doing the other women any
favors by having them sort of unidentified, at least
cleanly unidentified.
But Number 4 has it all for me. I
think it’s a beautiful design, and that’s where I’m
going to put my votes. Thank you so very much, Mr.

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Chair.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
Mary. Let’s move on to Donald.
MR. SCARINCI: So I want to say
something a little -- first of all, yes, Mary, that’s
exactly the point of Number 4. In the size of a
quarter when you pick up Number 4, in the first quick
look, it’s going to look like a flower.

It’s a

flower. Right? And what’s cool about the coin and
what’s cool about the design is it will inspire a
second, more closer look. And that’s what we’ve been
-- and that’s been our theme today it seems, that
what’s going to capture people’s attention. And, you
know, we’re living in in everybody -- everything is
capturing people’s attention.

So how do you get a

coin to capture their attention? Well, this coin will
capture attention because on first blush, it’s going
to look like a flower. And then when you look more
closely, oh, wow, it unfolds like a flower. I mean,
that’s the artistic expression of the design.
And forgive me, Joe, if I got that
wrong, have the artists forgive me. But it’s an

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artistically wonderful expression, and a nice tribute.
It’s going to make a fine coin. I support it.
Now let me tell you something
interesting. I was really looking at this portfolio - and again, we’ve got some great designs here. My
original impression of Number 3 was it was going to be
too cluttered and crowded and, you know, everybody is
going to be too small and you’re not going to be able
to make sense of it in the palette of a coin. But the
way the artist deals with this is fascinating. The
artist -- you know, the lettering is -- it almost
fades into the back. It’s not in your face. And I’m
sure the way Joe would have this sculpted is -- it
highlights just the figures and it uses the negative
space.

And so I thought that was really an

interesting design.

The artists should be commended

for that. and I’m also happy that nobody is talking
about Number 5. That’s the traditional coin, ho hum.
You know, it’s nice. It’s pretty.
a pretty, traditional coin.

It’s a good -- it’s

But it’s a more

traditional coin with the focus being on the face of
the subject and the shoes. You can get away with two

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elements without being collage-ish. You know?

But

this kind of doesn’t quite get to collage, but it’s
fascinating for what it is. But it’s the more -- it
appeals to the more -- it will appeal to the more
traditional coin.
And the others I just want to point out
-- I don’t want to go out of time. I can say a lot
about this portfolio. It’s a very cool portfolio in a
lot of ways. But I like the angles. You know? And
that’s what you’re going for. That’s what the artist
was clearly going for in 2 and 3. You’ve got these
beautiful right angles. You know, very symmetrical
design, a pretty design. But all that being said, the
flower is the thing. I support Number 4.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: You can give us your
name again.
MR. SCARINCI: Oh, I’m sorry.

Donald

CHAIRMAN BROWN: Outstanding.

Thank

Scarinci.

you so much.
Let’s move forward to Mike.
MR. MORAN: Thank you, Dr. Brown.

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is Mike Moran.
nothing new.

I’m probably going to be saying
I did like the traditional design,

Number 5. But it’s the -- around design in this case,
it’s about all of them.

And I also like Number 2 in

the way the inscriptions were done at the right
angles.

Two and 2A, excellent there.

But when you

get right down to it, after Joe told me that four
coins up, that’s where my votes are going to be. I
hadn’t seen it as a flower. Thank you, Mary.
it is. A beautiful one at that.

Because

And I won’t run off

any more. That’s good. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you, Mike.

Next

up is Robin.
MS. SALMON: Thank you, Dr. Brown.
This is Robin Salmon. And I was also drawn toward
Number 4, both for the floral and the lunar references
with the stages of the moon there in the background.
Joe Menna answered some questions that I had in my
mind about some of the sculpting challenges, so I am
satisfied there. And I think it’s just a lovely
design, as were all of these.
My second choice is Number 2. And I

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liked its really bold sort of in-your-face beauty.
But the bold American Indians inscription and -- it’s
almost American Indians United. I liked that message.
It’s still a pretty design, an elegant design. But
Number 4 gets my vote. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
Let’s turn now to Dennis.
MR. TUCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
This is Dennis Tucker. And this was a challenging
portfolio for me. My strong preference was for Design
2. And I knew that this was the family’s early
preference. I liked the fact that it has Maria
Tallchief’s name in it.

Not all of the designs do.

And it’s a very strong, bold depiction. Very visually
arresting.
Having listened to Ms. Paschen’s
commentary at the start though, I understand and agree
with the idea of depicting the Five Moons.
So that said, now my challenge is
between 3 and 4.

I too was -- when I first looked at

4, I saw a flower. I do like that sentiment.

But I

find the design busy in a way that is not as visually-

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satisfying as Number 3.

Number 3 really is very bold

in its own way. It’s collaborative, this dance that
they’re in. There’s motion, there’s action. There’s
emotion, even. And it’s beautiful. I think it’s more
beautiful than Number 4.

And I think it would

probably be easier to sculpt.

I know that I’m

speaking out of my wheelhouse with that comment. And
Joe might disagree. But I just think that Number 3 is
much more visually interesting and a much more
dramatic depiction of dance. And part of ballet is
drama. So I like Number 3 the best.
All are very nice designs. It is a
strong portfolio. I like the use of Dollar One in
designs 1 and 1A, that kind of script, cursive look
that we saw in one of the American Women quarters that
Dr. Fuller commented on earlier.
But anyway, for this particular
portfolio, I loved Number 3, and that will get my
strongest endorsement. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
Let’s turn now to Dean.
MR. KOTLOWSKI: Thank you so much, Mr.

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Chairman. I too found this a very stimulating and
challenging portfolio.

Maybe I should start out -- I

am agreeing and maybe just slightly disagreeing with
everyone.

My comments probably align most closely

with Mary’s, although I did not see the flower in
Number 4. When I looked at Number 4, I was a little
worried that it was too complicated and that there was
just too much going on.

But then again, it’s a

dollar. There is tremendous engraving and sculpting
skill at the Mint that can make this work.
You have five ballerinas -- another way
of looking at this, it’s perhaps not literally
depicted, but it recalls a single ballerina rehearsing
in a studio, surrounded by mirrors. And I like that
effect and I wonder if that would generate some
discussion. So I am very much drawn to Number 4.
Initially I liked Number 2 a lot for
the angles and the boldness. That’s 2A I think.
Yeah, 2.

You know, for the horizontal and the

vertical angles and the lettering. And I thought that
that was a very dramatic design.
I wanted to like Number 3, but I just

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couldn’t. There was just a sense of sameness to the
ballerinas. And they’re all just sort of jumbled and
put there. And it did not move me.
And the one that I didn’t like is
Number 5. I thought that the expression on Maria
Tallchief’s face was a little too dour. I thought the
shoes were a little bit -- but there is one thing I
liked about this.
artist.

A little bit of kudos to the

The way in which the ribbon is done with

United States of America and then winding back to the
shoes.

I thought that that was a really good job on

all of the designs for this. Very hard to make a
decision.

But I kept -- I tried to keep my mind open

on Number 4. I had a sense that the Committee members
would like Number 4, and Number 4 is good for me as
well. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you.

Turning

now to Peter.
MR. VAN ALFEN: Thank you, Dr. Brown.
This is Peter van Alfen.
I have to say that my preference was
and remains Number 2. I really liked the elegance,

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the simplicity, the symmetry, the balance.

And also

the fact that the American Indians and United portions
of the inscriptions would be incuse, which I think
would really work well on this coin.
The problem that I have with Number 4
is that it is really rather cluttered.

But it seems

to me rather muddled at the same time.

It does

require a great deal of attention and trying to pick
apart the pieces to see what is actually going on
there. And even in a larger, blown-up version of this
on the page or on the screen and so forth, it still
does not immediately hit you what is going on.

And

the sort of awkward foreshortening of Maria Tallchief
in the center of that, too, I worry a bit.

Even

though, you know, Joe seems to believe that they can
sculpt this in a satisfactory way, I really do worry
about how that would look on the coin.
So, you know, again, I can appreciate
everything that’s going on with Number 4, but it just
doesn’t really grasp me. It doesn’t really work for
me. And so I am going to continue to support Number
2. So thank you.

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CHAIRMAN BROWN:

Thank you so much.

Let’s turn now to Art.
MR. BERNSTEIN:

This is Art Bernstein.

I find myself agreeing with what Dennis Tucker had to
say with regard to design 3. When I first looked at
that design, I thought, oh, too busy. And then the
more I focused on it, I actually was attracted to the
business. It caught my eye.
And, Dean, I disagree with your comment
about the sameness.

To me as I look carefully, they

are all individuals. And they are wearing different
costumes and different headdresses, different
hairstyles. And I just enjoy the variety in the coin.
To me there was a lot of action going on, there’s a
circular movement. It seems to go in a clockwise
fashion. And I just felt like I was getting a lot of
value out of that particular design.

So I am

attracted to Design 3.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
Dr. Fuller.
DR. FULLER: Thank you, Dr. Brown.
This portfolio is excellent, but it was also -- it’s a

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difficult choice for me. So I’ll just go through a
few of them that I feel strongly about.
I really like Design 2, for many of the
reasons that my colleagues have already stated,
particularly the symmetry, the symmetry between the
sort of the gray area and the lighter area. I do like
American Indians with United sort of shaded in dark,
more dark, excuse me. I think that the ballerina is - her pose is elegant. And so I like that a lot.
I do like 3 and 4.

My preference I

think would be for 4. And the reason is because since
Maria Tallchief would be represented on two different
coins -- so on the one hand, the American Women’s
Quarters coin, she would already be represented on
that coin.

And if we are trying to represent the

other American Indian women in ballet, I think that 3
does the best job of that, because Tallchief’s name is
not on this coin, and so everyone gets highlighted
whereas on 4, her name is on that coin.

And so she

gets highlighted more so than the other women. And
again, she is already on the previous coin that we
looked at. And so in the interest of representation,

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although I appreciate and I respect the family’s
choice of 4, I think I would go with 3. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
I must confess, this is another example
why it’s such a pleasure to be a member of the CCAC.
As a physician, I am mostly affected by looking at
science and concrete stuff. But when I get to be in
this setting, I get to see more about the artistic and
the symbolism.

I must confess, it is indeed

rewarding.
But that also makes it more
challenging. And I must confess, Mary’s comments, I
didn’t really have that sense about Design 4, but it
is indeed to me striking from the standpoint of that
symbolism.

And that’s symbolism that has in fact to

me benefit in the sense that we are talking about
ballet, something that we’ve already talked about,
daughters in fact being involved in ballet.

Nothing

is any more symbolic than having a daughter and having
a symbol of a flower. Of a flower, in fact, blooming.
To me, that is a fantastic type of symbolism.
So in that respect, while I do

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understand comments from Dr. Fuller with respect to
the Maria Tallchief on both the quarter and on the
dollar, I think that sort of connects the two, quite
frankly.

And I do understand that this is more going

to be a numismatic product as opposed to in fact
something that’s circulating.

But I think it might

very well do a lot to actually expand the market if in
fact this citizens of the United States saw them
packaged together. I think that would do a lot to
expand the conversation, but also to in fact recognize
the history.
Those are my comments.

And I will turn

to in fact members of the Committee to find out if any
of you have any additional comments or motions at this
time.
Joe, I’m going to reach out to you
anyways in the next step, so that’s fantastic.
MR. MENNA: Dr. Brown, does that mean I
can say something now?
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Yes, please.
MR. MENNA: Yeah. Just as the
Committee may further its discussions, just some

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additional artistic guidance, not to preempt anybody’s
opinions or change anybody’s minds.

But a lot of

points came up that stood out to me first -- in the
order that they arose.
All respect to Peter. When I described
the foreshortening issue as challenging, I also
described it as eminently doable. And frankly, no
matter how hard the artist tried in Design 2, our
artist will have a much easier time sculpting the
foreshortening in the arm on Design 4 than trying to
reconcile the profound as-of-yet unresolved anatomical
troubles that the artist in Number 2 had. We worked
very carefully together. We felt that overall as a
design it works well. But in terms of internal
structure, that would take more changing -- and if
it’s a little imperfect, it will be fine. But Number
4 is def the -- if Peter is concerned about
difficulty, my point is 4 is easier than 2 to fix.
Two is also eminently doable, if that makes sense.
Number 3, I appreciate that it’s
interesting. But visually, none of these are really
in any kind of structural alignment and they don’t

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work as an organic whole. And I don’t want to be
pejorative. I don’t want to diminish the artist’s
effort, but they’re almost like paper dolls all in -not because they’re women. Just because of cutouts.
They’re almost like paper figures cut out and just
placed randomly.

Because no two motions are

synchronous in any way, no two of the visual linear
movements of them are synchronous in any way.

There

is nothing grounding any of these figures to the
format of the coin, to each other. There is no -ballet is harmonious and organic to my -- I have a 24year-old law student who was once a four-year-old
ballerina.

And I used to go to the Pennsylvania

Ballet every Christmas to see the Nutcracker until I
was in high school from the time I can remember.

And

as I remember ballet, it’s very fluid and -- it’s
visual music, right? It’s performance. It is the
performance side of the music.

To me, this is more of

a cacophony of interaction.
So that brings me -- if the reasoning
behind having this is to eliminate focusing on Madam
Tallchief, you could -- if that really is that much of

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a concern, Maria Tallchief -- I’m not speaking on
behalf of the Mint, but just visually, you would just
take Maria Tallchief off of Design 4 and you still
have -- you have the grouping of various dancers.

You

have the solution of multiple dancers if the Tallchief
name is an issue.

But visually I don’t think there is

a stronger statement visually than Number 4 for a
successful coin.

There’s not a stronger visual

solution to the problem of this coin then Design 4.
And forgive me for going on so long.
CHAIRMAN BROWN:

Thank you so much,

Joe. Although I am mindful of the time, I think this
is so important that we give the opportunity for any
other members of the Committee if they have any
additional comments or motions on these designs.
Haring none, I’m going to turn back to
Ms. Paschen to see if anything else that you would
like to add for consideration by the Committee.
MS. PASCHEN: Could you please go back
to Number 4?
So I really -- this is so fascinating
to me to listen to all of your comments. And I didn’t

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see the flower. I love that I see the flower, and I
actually -- I love the way you described the phases of
the moon.
Again, to repeat what I said at the
beginning, I thought all these designs were gorgeous,
but again, I would support Number 4.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you, Ms.
Paschen. Thank you so much.
Any further discussion by any of the
members of the Committee?
Haring none and seeing none, again, for
the last time today, each of you have a score sheet.
Please in fact email or text your scores to Greg
Weinman, and Greg will then tally the scores and
present them in ten minutes or less. So let’s take in
fact a ten-minute or less recess while we submit our
scores and allow Greg to tally them.
MR. WEINMAN: Send them my way.
REPORTER: We are off the record at
3:15 p.m.
(Break)
REPORTER: And we are back on the

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record at 3:23 p.m.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much.
This is Lawrence Brown. We are back. I recognize
Greg Weinman, counsel to the CCAC, to present the
results of the scoring sheets.
MR. WEINMAN: Good afternoon, Dr.
Brown, for the last time today. Once again, with all
members scoring, the top possible score is 33 points.
Design 1 received five points. Design
1A received six. Design 2 received 16 points.

Design

2A received five points. Design 3 received 16 points.
Design 4 received 25 points, making it the high
scoring design. And finally, Design 5 received five
points. So once again, Design 4 is the high scoring
design by the committee.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you so much,
Greg. Are there any motions by any of the members of
the Committee?
Hearing that there are none, can I get
a motion to in fact endorse the results from the score
sheets?
MR. VAN ALFEN: Peter Van Alfen, so

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moved.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Is there a second?
MS. SALMON: Robin Salmon, second.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: All those in favor,
say aye.
(Participants respond.)
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Any opposed?

It

appears that the motion has passed. Are there any
other further motions?
Hearing none, it is clear based on the
beginning of the day, as I mentioned at the top of the
day, that we bear witness to designs that will come
before us that will be dynamic and hopefully destined
to become masterpieces. I think we probably did see a
couple for which we probably say fits that bill.
This concludes the business for today.
I appreciate the attendance from all of you for this
meeting. Let me pause there as I see a hand up.
Dennis?
MR. TUCKER: Yes. Thank you, Mr.
Chair. This is Dennis Tucker. I apologize for
bringing this up so late. But going back to the

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Jovita Idar quarter, in the event that the Secretary
of the Treasury does not choose our recommendation of
Number 8 and if she chooses either 1 or 2, I would
like to recommend that we place some space in between
E Pluribus Unum and United States of America.

At the

very least have some space, possibly a dot or some
other ornament that separates the two.
MS. PASCHEN: Excuse me, Mr. Tucker.
MR. TUCKER: Yes.
MS. PASCHEN: You won’t mind if I say
goodbye? I have to go teach a class.
MR. TUCKER: Thank you so much for your
time. It was a pleasure speaking with you.
MS. PASCHEN: Thank you so much for
including me. It’s such an honor to have worked with
all of you. And thank you again for honoring and
celebrating my mother with these incredible designs.
All my gratitude. Thank you so much.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Thank you.

Everyone,

in fact, the motion by in fact Dennis, assuming that
everyone has -MR. TUCKER: Mr. Chair --

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CHAIRMAN BROWN: -- then all points for
application -- Dennis, you have something to follow?
MR. TUCKER: Yes, Mr. Chair. The only
reason I mention this is because I personally feel
that there may be a strong chance that the Secretary
will not take -- will not decide to follow a very
innovative recommendation such as Number 8. And
traditionally, Number 1 or Number 2 is a much safer
design, and I think that’s one that -- those are two
that got a lot of discussion in our conversations.
That’s why I bring it up, and not because I’m
endorsing 1 or 2. But I do think that there’s a good
chance that one of those would be chosen by the
Secretary.

And if that’s the case, I would like to

see some separation between the two legends mentioned.
CHAIRMAN BROWN:

Well, thank you so

much. Unless there’s any in fact request for
clarification of this motion, if there is none, then I
have to ask to see if there is a second.
MR. BERNSTEIN: This is Art Bernstein.
I’d be happy to second.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Given that we have a

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motion and a second, now we have to ask if there are
any further discussions on the motion.
Seeing that there is no further
discussion on the motion, then we will need to vote on
the motion as it currently has been offered.

So

should we -- can you repeat the motion one more time
for us, in fact, Dennis, so that we can make sure for
the record that we have it?
MR. TUCKER:
Tucker.

Yes.

This is Dennis

I am moving that in the event that Reverse 1

or Reverse 2 of the Jovita Idar design portfolio is
chosen by the Secretary, that we add space or a bullet
or some sort of ornamentation to further separate E
Pluribus Unum and United States of America.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Understood. Are there
any other questions or any other in fact discussion?
Hearing none, the matter of in fact -Greg, I’ll need some guidance from you and Jennifer
how many votes do we need in fact for this motion to
pass.
MR. WEINMAN: You need a majority.
in this case, you would need six.

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CHAIRMAN BROWN: So for all those in
favor of the motion, signify by saying aye.
(Participants respond.)
CHAIRMAN BROWN: That seems to me to be
in fact necessary for a majority.
opposed, say nay.

So all those

Hearing none nay, it sounds like

this motion passes.
Ladies and gentlemen, are there any
further motions for us to consider before we in fact
end this (inaudible)?
Hearing none, again, I want to say that
I appreciate the attendance of all the CCAC members.
And as Joe Menna has often said, that the Mint and its
fantastic staff is phenomenal. And if there are no
further business to come before this Committee, I will
entertain a motion to adjourn.
MR. VAN ALFEN: Peter van Alfen.

So

moved.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Is there a second?
MR. KOTLOWSKI: Dean Kotlowski, second.
CHAIRMAN BROWN: Very good. All those
in favor for adjourning, say aye.

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(Participants

respond.)

CHAIRMAN BROWN: It is the opinion of
the chair that the ayes have it, and we stand
adjourned.
REPORTER:

We are off the record at

3:31 p.m.
(Whereupon, at 3:31 p.m., the
proceeding was concluded.)

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CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC
I, SHONDA DAWSON, the officer before whom
the foregoing proceedings were taken, do hereby
certify that any witness(es) in the foregoing
proceedings, prior to testifying, were duly sworn;
that the proceedings were recorded by me and
thereafter reduced to typewriting by a qualified
transcriptionist; that said digital audio recording of
said proceedings are a true and accurate record to the
best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am
neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any
of the parties to the action in which this was taken;
and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of
any counsel or attorney employed by the parties
hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the
outcome of this action.

SHONDA DAWSON
Notary Public in and for the
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

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CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER
I, SONYA LEDANSKI HYDE, do hereby certify
that this transcript was prepared from the digital
audio recording of the foregoing proceeding, that said
transcript is a true and accurate record of the
proceedings to the best of my knowledge, skills, and
ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to,
nor employed by any of the parties to the action in
which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a
relative or employee of any counsel or attorney
employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or
otherwise interested in the outcome of this action.

SONYA LEDANSKI HYDE

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0

01 90:3
01a 55:15
02 89:10 99:9
02a 55:4,18 76:17
06 55:19
08 99:10
1
1 3:5 5:5,13 6:19
9:10 18:21 32:10
32:11 35:14,16
43:12 49:3 57:2
75:14 91:10,15,21
94:22 108:11
111:2 113:8 114:3
115:17 117:7,11
117:14 118:9,18
119:15 120:7
126:9,16 128:16
129:8 138:19
139:15 140:6,11
140:17 143:12,13
144:2 148:16,21
149:5,9,15 150:8
150:17 151:2,21
151:22 152:8,16
153:10,16 154:7
154:16 155:8,12
156:15 158:5
159:5,18 160:6
161:8 167:5,12,18
170:5 174:6
191:19 197:7,8
200:1 203:15,22
220:14 232:9
234:3 235:8,12
236:10
1,000 124:20
10 29:14 49:7
67:19 69:10 93:15
102:17 139:3

100 26:2 122:20
100,000 124:21
100th 17:5
10:08 48:18
11 93:19 99:21
139:3
110-82 201:17
116-330 11:20
12151 240:14
12:07 138:12
12:09 140:14
15 6:6 9:21 25:2
138:20
15th 24:16,17 75:6
16 96:6 97:2
138:20 232:10,11
17 11:1
1800s 108:6
1838 126:13,18
1892 126:15
155:17
19 1:10 4:7 200:3
1907 156:10
1908 156:11
1920s 20:2
1921 17:15 25:2
1922 15:12
1926 17:19
1930s 73:11
1935 52:1
1949 202:4
1962 52:1
1963 75:5
1974 11:3
1990 90:5
1:00 138:1
1:34 166:16
1:42 166:19
1a 57:2,4 143:12
144:12 148:17,21
149:5,9,14 150:9
150:17 151:2,21
152:16 153:10,16

158:5 159:5,19,19
160:6 161:8 167:7
174:6 189:4,4,5,6
189:6 197:7,8
200:2 203:15,20
204:1 205:5
220:14 232:10
2
2 19:2 32:11 37:9
38:2 43:12 49:3
91:10,16,20 94:22
95:1 108:10
110:21 115:18,18
115:21 117:7,14
118:10,18 119:15
120:7 126:9,16
128:16 129:8
138:20 140:13
144:14 162:9
167:7 174:6 197:6
200:2 204:2,4
205:16 206:2
217:11 218:4,22
219:11 221:17,19
222:22 223:22
225:3 228:8,12,18
232:10 234:3
235:8,12 236:11
20 49:6 156:10
167:7
20,000 121:13
2014 69:10
2020 90:17
2021 34:22
2022 1:10 4:7 6:6
9:21 10:22 12:2
186:6
2023 6:8,18 8:17
9:9 11:13,14 22:4
47:8 51:6 61:1
85:5 90:15 111:20
125:12 141:1

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2025 12:3
20th 32:22 202:11
21 11:2
23 11:1
24 229:11
25 14:8,9 53:19
149:18 150:1
151:3,22 152:1,18
153:20 154:11
156:18 157:5
158:10,15,17
160:8,10,11,14,17
161:12,20,22
162:6,14,18 163:1
169:18,20 187:18
191:19 232:12
26 139:1,4
27143 239:18
2:32 199:9,14
2a 57:6 60:15
63:18 64:3,6,22
65:7,11 67:22
68:1,4,9 69:7 70:1
73:1 76:6 80:4
204:2,4 205:16
206:3 218:6
221:18 232:11
3
3 19:8 49:4 107:9
128:15 138:21
139:2 144:19,21
146:21 150:6
153:20 154:13
159:1 160:6 167:8
173:22 174:6
181:15 182:10
184:15,16 185:6
185:12 188:22
191:2,4,6 192:1
194:4 197:4,11
200:3 204:5,5

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166:3 170:12
201:22

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Meeting

[3 - accomplishments]
220:11,18 221:22
224:5,18 225:10
225:16 226:2
228:20 232:11
30 49:5,9 150:16
200:4,6
32 167:5,12
33 49:2 138:19
167:4 169:21
170:5 199:22
232:8
34 17:18 130:8
3:15 231:20
3:23 232:1
3:31 238:6,7
3a 59:4 60:16
144:19,21 146:21
150:6 153:20
154:14 159:1
160:6 167:9
173:22 174:6
188:3 200:3
4
4 19:8 36:6,7,19
36:19 39:6 41:8
41:17,19,23 42:14
42:14 49:4 92:5
138:20,21 139:3,3
144:22 167:9
174:3,7 177:6
181:9 182:2,15
183:9,16 184:1,15
184:19,20 185:5
185:14 188:8
189:14 190:7
191:2 192:7,11
193:1 194:13
196:10 197:18
198:5,15 200:4,7
204:7,9 205:4
206:5,6,22,22
212:19 213:11,17
214:13,20 215:6,7
217:14 218:16

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225:19 226:2,13
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230:3,7,9,20
231:6 232:12,14
4a 19:8,11,11,14
24:13 28:6,11
32:15 33:3 34:3,8
34:17 35:2,7 36:1
36:5,5,7,16,17
37:11,20 41:8,8
41:17 42:18,19
43:1 44:11 47:3
49:5,9 50:3
5
5 19:16,17,20
20:20,20,22,22
28:5,19,21 30:18
32:20 33:3 34:3,9
35:5 36:2,2 37:14
37:20 38:22 39:7
41:16,17,23 47:3
49:3,6,8 91:11
92:4 138:21,21,22
145:7 167:10
174:11 192:7
200:5 204:11
206:1 213:6
216:18 218:3
222:5 232:13
50 59:21
50s 105:5
5156190 1:14
5a 19:16 20:20,22
49:7 145:7 167:11
6
6 19:22 34:4 38:9
49:3,4,7 57:14
64:4,7 65:3 92:14
92:16 138:21

6a 19:22 38:9,11
49:8 92:14,18
138:22
7
7 92:20 108:3
113:6 138:22,22
71 169:11
8
8 49:4,7 93:4,8
96:5 98:13 99:3
99:20 100:19,22
101:8,8 107:21
109:8,21 112:17
113:10,17,22
114:8,16 115:6
116:16 117:1,15
118:5 119:20,22
122:2 124:11
127:18 128:2
129:2 134:13,19
138:22 139:2,4
234:3 235:7
8/15/1920 19:12
8a 93:4,9 100:19
109:8,20,21 110:2
113:17 114:16
115:6 118:5
128:11 129:2
139:2
9
9 93:10 139:2
9:00 1:11
9:56 48:13
a
a.m.
1:11
aa 213:19
abbreviated
126:13,21
abbreviation
127:6,9
abilities 17:10

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119:22 176:4
239:10 240:7
able 15:1 28:10
39:16 40:7,10
59:15,16 120:2
137:15 140:6
147:9 208:18
210:14 213:3
216:8
ably 96:18
abolition 12:21
absence 70:11
absolute 65:1
absolutely 45:6
53:15 59:6 65:11
95:13 98:13 106:5
112:17 114:13
123:10 128:2,4
135:4 176:5
abstain 139:15
academic 111:4
141:19 211:13
accenting 27:10
accept 167:19
200:11
acceptable 210:12
211:2
accepted 83:11
access 136:18
accolades 118:4
accommodate
29:16
accomplish 17:12
accomplished
140:3
accomplishment
17:7 179:4
accomplishments
12:16,19 51:21
91:10 92:2 93:7
110:22 134:15
144:10 145:3

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[accurate - alphanumeric]
accurate 55:2 95:3
178:1 239:9 240:5
accurately 5:21
accustomed 151:3
achieved 115:19
202:11
achievement
206:9
achievements
18:10 173:19
act 11:21 201:16
action 27:21 43:12
88:11 220:3
224:14 239:12,16
240:8,12
active 43:13
activism 90:10
activist 85:9 88:8
88:16 91:14 93:2
93:17 115:20
149:17
actors 65:20
actual 78:8
adams 171:14
203:6
add 20:7 21:4
27:19 42:9 43:22
45:14 46:23 54:13
56:7 60:14 61:20
70:21 91:19
123:13 143:7
149:5 164:20
173:8 179:22
191:3 194:5 196:2
210:5,17 230:18
236:12
added 38:10 44:13
62:2 110:6,7
191:8
addition 15:16
16:3 26:18 52:3
62:10 80:17 86:1
110:21 115:18
142:1 171:9 202:9

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93:20 98:9 129:18
134:5 143:18,21
145:5,22 148:12
160:20 161:1
163:10 168:21
169:2 174:3 181:2
191:8 193:7
195:17 196:4
204:3,8,9 212:12
227:14 228:1
230:15
additionally 5:22
63:2 98:4 148:8
172:5 180:20
address 16:17
109:3 129:16
156:8 163:15
185:21 209:7
addressed 9:15
44:12 156:14
addressing 103:4
adjourn 237:16
adjourned 238:4
adjourning
237:22
adjusts 19:4
adlai 81:14,20
administrative
177:7,18 178:8
admission 15:4
admonish 175:18
admonitions
39:17
adopted 128:18
advance 20:9
advances 198:8

advancing 50:12
50:13,16 84:2,3
140:2,3 168:16,17
201:7,9
advantage 35:19
191:6
advice 156:6,8
157:5
advises 17:4
advisory 1:1 4:6
17:3
advocacy 88:18
advocate 14:14
96:4
advocated 51:15
advocates 164:22
aerial 16:6
affairs 3:1,8,9
13:13 204:21
205:7
affect 194:1
aforementioned
171:10
african 14:15,16
14:20 15:13,15
afternoon 125:16
140:19 148:14
167:2 199:20
232:6
age 17:18 213:19
agenda 6:3 9:19
ago 111:11 205:17
211:12 214:6
agree 27:18 34:19
65:2 71:14 76:5
98:12 119:14
149:4 151:21
153:19 155:13
157:1 180:8 182:1
183:2,8 192:11
219:17
agreeing 148:15
221:3 224:4

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86:21 122:11
air 15:10,20,22
16:4 19:21 193:2
aircraft 16:6
airmen 34:22
airplane 18:19
28:14 34:6 45:16
airport 18:2
akaka 145:1
aki 3:19 9:3 86:13
86:13,15,18 87:20
89:4 90:22 91:2,2
91:4,5 101:5
108:9 134:4,7,11
134:11 136:13
140:1
alfen 2:4 4:12,13
10:4,4 37:1 44:18
44:19 75:18,19
112:15,16 140:9,9
146:18,19,21
147:17 158:3,4
167:22 168:1
189:19,20 200:14
200:15 222:19,20
232:22,22 237:17
237:17
alice 66:18 67:4
align 221:4
alignment 72:12
94:20 228:22
alive 16:14 29:20
29:21 126:20
allida 13:11
allow 47:16 78:2
115:8 231:17
allows 77:21 78:6
151:4
allude 43:3
aloha 142:16
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191:21
amazing 17:7 87:1
101:8 104:12
106:6,13
ambassador 81:13
171:22 203:10
ambition 25:22
26:3 124:2
amelia 17:16
america 14:6 70:5
73:10 103:17
110:3 118:14,16
179:11 203:1
213:8 222:10
234:5 236:14
american 3:4,5
6:8,19 8:17 9:10
11:13,19 12:2,7
12:10 13:20 14:15
14:16,17 15:13,21
50:13 52:8 60:5
84:2 85:9 86:7,9
88:8 90:15 104:9
113:1 115:7,14
118:6,20 140:3
142:5,6 168:17
170:16,17 171:4
171:14,16,16,18
172:16 177:21
179:12,14 185:20
186:7,12,13 201:8
201:16 202:1,6,10
202:17,22 203:6
203:18 204:6,17
204:18,19 205:2,5
205:19 206:10
207:8 209:20,22
210:4,11,12,22,22
211:1,2,2,8,10,14
211:16 214:6,8
219:2,3 220:15
223:2 225:7,13,16
americans 14:20
15:15 50:14,17

84:3 85:14 92:11
93:14 140:4
168:18 171:7
201:9,21 210:2
211:13
america’s 174:4
177:5,6,9,13,15
178:3,12,16 179:1
179:16 180:4
182:7 185:1,18
186:19
amos 7:3
amount 178:9
208:19
ample 208:19
amputate 188:5
amputating
175:18
analogous 10:17
analogy 132:20
133:16
analysis 156:4
157:8
analyst 2:22
anatomical 176:2
228:11
anatomy 176:9,10
andersen 194:8
anecdotal 72:9
angela 172:1
203:11
angelou 183:13
188:16,18
angles 162:6 217:9
217:12 218:6
221:18,20
animals 107:3
anna 54:5 100:4
anniversary 17:6
75:7
announce 5:19
116:4
annoyed 113:19
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annual 11:1
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answer 45:13
61:14 109:20,21
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133:15
answered 129:1
218:18
answers 23:14
156:1
antagonists 66:20
anticipate 123:17
anxiously 90:21
anya 171:16
anybody 39:13
102:12 109:7
120:13,14 130:11
anybody's 132:1
anybody’s 228:1,2
anyway 127:9
161:12 206:21
220:17
anyways 227:17
apart 153:4 223:9
apologies 42:6,7
64:11 79:19 83:13
132:3 136:10
apologize 21:18
132:2 193:18
199:13 233:21
apostrophe 177:5
178:3 182:7
apparently 117:11
appeal 154:9
184:16 217:4
appealing 149:19
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approachable
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Meeting

[appropriate - aviation]
178:11,13 187:18
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appropriately
146:6 179:2
approval 6:4 9:20
9:20
approve 10:3
approved 10:15
12:6
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authority 14:3
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autobiographies
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aviation 16:6,7,8
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Meeting

[aviator - bessie]
aviator 15:1
aviators 15:3 19:6
33:21
aviatrix 17:1 43:3
avoid 170:20
await 90:21
award 54:7 86:7
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b
back 5:10 19:18
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began 11:2

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beginning 11:14
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bespeaks 96:9
bessie 3:14 6:9
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16:21 17:14,18
18:3,8,17 19:1,7
22:4 24:14 31:22
32:16,21 33:22
35:22 36:10,13

Meeting

[bessie - brown]
37:17 41:7,12
47:9 50:15 56:17
125:21
bessie's 17:5,8
18:6
best 55:13 59:6,20
60:9 72:12,15
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better 24:3 36:19
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beyond 40:11
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bias 111:5
big 38:9 67:17
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bigger 21:7,10
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bighorse 172:2
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bill 233:15
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April 19, 2022

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border 93:21
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born 14:20 164:7
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breaking 133:1
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breakthrough
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brick 162:12
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bridge 214:6
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bringing 145:3
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brings 162:6
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229:20
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brisk 169:11
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broad 68:3 96:9
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broadly 210:13
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broken 102:2
98:20 99:1 100:10
broker 170:16
100:15 101:1
bronze 101:9
106:4,7 108:18
brother 71:14
112:12 113:12
114:9 115:22

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202-857-3376

Meeting

[brown - cent]
116:2,9,10 117:18
120:9 122:9,11
123:12,22 124:6
125:5 126:3,5,8
127:11,15 128:20
129:15 132:2,3
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called 7:11 14:22
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captured 22:21
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carolina 14:2
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captures 32:21
34:6 60:10 65:15
89:22 117:12
130:22
capturing 60:4
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care 24:18 111:15
205:8
cared 87:17
career 58:20
carefully 224:10
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232:4 237:12
cease 153:15
celebrate 198:6
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celebrated 10:22
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celebrating 17:5
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celebration 11:1
cent 14:10 152:1,1

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202-857-3376

Meeting

217:15,19,22

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com
202-857-3376

April 19, 2022

155:22 156:21

Meeting

[cent - childbirth]

April 19, 2022

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chairperson 21:5
25:17 39:10,11
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202-857-3376

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104:22 124:3
140:21 161:18
173:3 194:15
child 78:20
childbirth 87:14

Meeting

[children - coins]
children 45:15
87:22 92:12
118:15
chime 54:13
choice 18:7 34:9
38:11 42:18 53:22
59:22 64:3 66:5
73:1 76:6,7
148:16 197:6
205:20 206:5,22
211:13 212:20
213:11 218:22
225:1 226:2
choices 28:18 34:2
108:7 115:17
119:13 134:18
154:17
choose 30:16
102:19 112:1
135:18 159:18
234:2
chooses 234:3
chose 113:8
chosen 89:9
117:20 173:17
176:15 235:13
236:12
chouteau 202:13
chris 54:16 71:14
81:8
christian 194:8
christmas 229:14
christopher 3:15
8:21 52:11 65:16
church 88:13,21
circle 78:22 80:19
190:12,12,16,17
192:14 194:18,20
195:2
circular 22:13
23:4 208:8,8
224:15
circulated 107:2
122:1

April 19, 2022

Page 10
circulating 11:21
30:22 96:20 107:1
108:6 116:22
126:20 186:1
207:7 227:6
circumstances
52:20
cited 205:5
citing 144:8 194:4
citizenry 31:1
citizens 1:1 4:6
17:3 43:19 132:17
227:8
city 66:3 77:4
civil 12:20 51:16
55:10 85:13
civilian 71:18
clarification 46:21
235:18
clarifications
79:16
clarify 82:14
clarifying 87:5
clarity 144:8
clasped 93:5
class 15:8 234:11
classic 187:16
classical 187:15
202:7
classroom 77:22
clean 128:2,2
cleanly 214:19
clear 127:17,18
233:10
clearly 57:20
140:2 147:11
152:10 153:17
168:16 201:7
217:11
clever 99:11
client 30:7 31:1
client's 29:16
clients 99:19

clockwise 224:15
close 26:17 63:1
96:18 98:2 148:7
180:19 190:16
204:11
closely 154:16
215:19 221:4
closer 42:17
215:11
closest 96:16
closet 53:18,20
closeup 27:6
cloud 19:17
clouds 28:13,15
41:21,22
cluttered 216:7
223:6
coach 147:6
coat 19:3 38:6
cochran 16:4
code 131:21
coin 3:5,11,12,13
6:19 7:3 9:10
10:22 11:21 18:13
27:11 30:22 31:14
35:21 38:4 39:21
40:13,23 41:10
44:19 58:13,22
59:3,8,14,20 61:8
65:11 66:6 67:11
67:14 69:11 70:4
77:2,14,20,22
80:18 81:16 84:7
84:9 95:10,10,13
95:14 96:17,21
98:16 99:7,13
100:1 101:15,15
102:8,8 112:21,21
113:10 115:14
116:21,22 120:1,5
120:22,22 121:11
122:2,21 123:2,3
123:10 124:12,14
124:15,17,21

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com
202-857-3376

127:5 128:3,6
129:19 131:1
132:14 133:8,13
133:14 135:18
145:17 147:1
148:20 158:8
173:1 174:17
175:14,22 181:9
181:13,17 183:13
183:15 185:4
186:2,7,15,17
193:14 194:10,21
196:17,19,21
197:11 201:16
204:17 207:7,8,16
208:6 209:11,21
209:21 210:4
212:22 214:8,10
214:13 215:9,16
215:16 216:2,9,18
216:20,21 217:5
223:4,17 224:13
225:14,15,18,19
225:21 229:10
230:8,9
coinability 20:21
21:2 37:16 105:3
145:19
coinable 42:17
58:15 102:7 105:3
coinage 1:1 4:6
17:3 69:15 87:9
115:4
coincidence 72:11
coincidentally
75:6
coinnews 7:5
coins 18:5 20:15
23:3 28:11 30:6
30:15 35:2 40:15
43:19 60:2 66:6
81:18 94:7 95:15
104:7,8 108:6,7
110:5 113:2 121:1

Meeting

[coins - committee]
124:16 125:11
127:8 130:6,12
134:16 149:12,21
185:15 198:5
201:18 207:5
212:18,19,19
218:8 225:13
coleman 3:14,14
6:9 8:18,18,19
11:15 14:12,13,22
15:5,9,13 16:10
16:11,16,18,20,21
16:22 17:2,21
18:15,18,21 19:1
19:2,7,8,13,16
20:1,8,11 21:19
22:4 24:14,19
25:20 28:12 32:1
33:22 34:14 35:18
35:22 36:10,14
37:6 38:14 41:12
46:23 47:2,9 50:9
50:15,19 56:17
125:21
coleman's 16:12
16:14 21:17 38:3
collaborative
220:2
collage 217:1,2
colleague 107:6
colleagues 37:10
76:5 78:14,15
79:11 114:15
116:15 118:22
132:4 133:22
135:17 136:8
153:15 155:14
159:18 160:5
192:2,13 225:4
collect 84:8
collectable 11:21
collectible 207:7
collecting 107:18

April 19, 2022

Page 11
collection 74:22
collections 16:5
collector 35:21,21
74:18 84:9 130:12
130:13 132:14
collectors 115:6
128:4 156:4
college 77:4
color 15:8 202:19
columbia 239:20
column 51:22
combination 28:2
combine 132:16
combined 96:19
come 11:6 29:3
30:5 31:20 72:15
152:18 156:7
157:12 184:2
190:10 192:6
233:12 237:15
comeback 165:1
comes 31:18 32:2
36:18 109:13
120:20 163:21
164:14 165:3
179:17
comfortable
178:15
coming 49:14
86:17
commemorate
56:22
commemorating
30:10
commemorative
30:6
commend 64:4
205:14
commended
216:16
comment 29:11
32:10 33:5 42:10
45:3 80:16 81:2
91:1 94:12 97:17

101:19 127:4
135:16 145:20
146:4 155:7,15
159:6 174:20
178:19,21 182:9
193:9,11 196:7
197:20 220:7
224:9
commentary
119:10 156:3
173:8 205:10
219:17
commented 188:4
220:16
commenter 44:5
comments 9:22
25:9 26:12,17,19
27:1 35:10 37:16
38:7 44:6,16 45:5
46:20,21 54:13
58:16 62:18,22
63:3,7,15 71:9
72:3,8 74:16
75:16 79:12,16
80:3 94:4 97:12
97:20 98:2,5,9
101:6 109:1,19
114:1 117:19
120:10,13 123:14
127:13 134:1,5
145:22 148:1,6,9
148:12 152:13
155:1 157:7 158:6
158:16,22 159:11
160:5,20 161:1
163:6,10,13 164:1
165:10,21 168:21
169:3 177:20
180:10,14,19,21
181:3 190:20
192:19 193:7
195:11,14,15,17
196:3,20 207:19
212:6 221:4

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com
202-857-3376

226:12 227:1,12
227:14 230:15,22
commission 51:13
51:20 136:18
commitment
88:18 135:7
141:16
committee 1:1 4:6
4:11 5:18 16:17
17:3 20:14 21:9
22:2,3 24:9 29:12
29:14 31:8 39:13
39:13 41:10 44:10
44:12 47:4,7,9
52:14,16 56:2,17
58:13 60:20,21,22
62:15 77:2 78:10
78:14 80:13 81:6
83:2 86:3,14 87:9
90:19 94:6 95:11
95:22 97:2,13
102:6 108:20
110:11 114:13
119:9 121:16
122:22 127:19
132:5,8 134:6,12
134:21 135:21,22
137:7,20 142:15
143:5 145:14,16
146:10,12,12
147:19 157:2
163:11,14 165:22
166:2 172:12
173:9 174:16
175:3 176:20,21
180:10 193:19
195:6,9 198:18,20
200:7 204:15,20
205:6,9 207:4,15
209:4,6,8,14,19
212:2 222:14
227:13,22 230:14
230:18 231:10
232:15,18 237:15

Meeting

[committee's - corrected]
committee's 25:16
common 21:13
communicate 23:5
101:14,16
communicates
21:21 210:11
communities
55:11 198:7
community 30:8
30:13 78:22 88:10
92:13 107:18
141:18 156:1,2
198:10
companion 69:10
comparison
188:16,17
compelling 152:9
competent 119:1
competitors 131:9
131:11
compilation 74:22
complement 35:23
complete 99:9
completely 26:4
98:12 100:18
114:16 126:14
149:4 197:18
completes 80:19
completion 81:15
complex 67:17
complicated 221:7
compliment 38:2
161:9
compliments
76:17 182:22,22
composed 165:4
composer 141:4
composition 59:18
190:17
comprehensive
33:5
comprises 214:1
concept 108:4
155:9

April 19, 2022

Page 12

concern 37:18
45:3 105:3 111:19
119:21 129:5
147:12 159:2
161:17 183:11
230:1
concerned 38:22
39:7 228:17
concerning
161:12
concerns 41:16
103:3 130:12
161:16 194:14
conclude 108:15
112:11 127:10
concluded 50:1
139:9 168:8 238:8
concludes 20:4
58:1 93:22 145:11
157:7 233:16
concrete 226:7
concur 57:13
76:18 144:4
conditions 19:5
85:20
conference 1:12
confess 43:10,15
118:2 160:6 226:4
226:9,12
confidence 170:22
confident 29:1
106:1 178:11
confidently 28:15
configuration
162:1
confining 111:14
confirm 7:9
congress 156:11
172:2 203:11
204:18 205:4
congressional
96:21 204:19
205:2

connecting 84:17
connection 126:3
186:6
connections 73:8
connects 186:2,4
227:3
conservation
141:17
consider 18:18
80:14 95:12
114:17 128:1
173:5 180:4 196:5
237:9
consideration
26:10 31:5 62:17
178:10 180:13
204:16,22 212:2
230:18
considered 170:15
207:10
considering 86:5
91:7 125:11
149:21 150:4
constellation
173:22 182:11
191:8 203:19
constitutional
65:19,21
constructed
194:10
consultation 12:7
contained 96:15
contemporaneous
42:20
contemporaries
203:19
contemporary
89:7
continue 12:11
14:18 52:2 88:15
114:21 116:9
118:11,19 123:18
123:19 199:15
223:21

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com
202-857-3376

continued 69:21
188:15
continues 90:8
141:20 163:20
continuing 12:3
continuity 128:11
contract 211:9
contradict 121:20
contrarian 116:20
118:1
contrast 35:23
94:18 211:17
contributions
12:17,18 120:8
201:20
conversation 58:7
78:2 107:16,18
119:7 136:10
147:21 160:15
207:3,10 227:10
conversations
58:10 235:10
convey 93:3 179:1
184:3
conveyed 176:8
conveys 57:18
convince 156:4
convinced 189:13
cool 23:2 41:22,23
46:17 66:4 103:22
104:2,2 112:19
114:7 123:1
133:10 152:2,22
215:9,10 217:8
copy 47:10 81:17
83:3 92:6 137:8
166:5 198:22
correct 24:17 25:2
45:6 46:6 61:11
105:22 122:7
144:6 169:22
178:2 194:19
corrected 39:10
170:2,3

Meeting

[correction - decides]
correction 193:13
correctly 143:20
186:10
costello 2:21 8:4,5
20:13,18 94:10,11
106:5,11 145:18
161:5 174:19,20
207:17,20,21
208:1
costume 184:18
184:19 185:2
costumes 185:2
224:12
couldn’t 222:1
counsel 3:3,3,4
48:20 138:15
166:21 232:4
239:11,14 240:7
240:10
counselor 199:18
counter 40:14
131:1
counterpoint
211:18
countless 15:10
countries 75:2
77:19
country 62:1
63:12 90:13 132:8
198:13 210:13
couple 22:18
233:15
courage 89:17
courageous 50:17
course 8:12 10:19
12:14 31:10 39:20
56:6,21 62:5 66:8
69:7,12 73:10
77:15 91:9 92:3
102:12 127:17
131:10 134:17,20
172:7 173:7
180:16 190:1
204:21

April 19, 2022

Page 13
court 5:20 23:21
72:22 99:15 116:3
122:15 125:2
129:11 138:7
165:16 199:12
cousin 74:5
cover 133:18
covered 19:17
covers 90:6
148:19
covid 35:20
cracked 130:18,19
crafts 171:17
crazy 103:6 124:2
create 26:5
creating 131:13
creation 51:14
174:1 203:20
creative 153:1
credit 193:20,21
criteria 97:1
130:11
critical 88:1,11
critically 118:17
criticism 155:21
156:2,7,13
criticisms 156:8
cronica 92:1,6
93:16 115:19
crop 175:13
cropped 175:15
175:16,17
cropping 175:12
crossed 93:11
crowded 216:7
crucially 118:17
cuando 92:18
cultural 19:6
142:5 171:22
203:10
culture 118:8,11
118:18 119:3
141:9,11 143:17
145:4 171:19

198:6,8
curator 15:20
16:5 52:6 86:8
142:4 171:16
curious 39:6 61:7
155:10 157:8
current 145:4
currently 211:7
236:5
curriculum 90:5
curse 82:4
cursive 220:14
curtis 18:19 74:5
74:6
customs 141:7
cut 229:5
cutouts 229:4
d
d 4:1 52:11 73:20
74:4 81:16 107:9
dahlia 92:22 113:6
dance 153:19
155:8 157:8,9
171:4 178:14
202:16,18 220:2
220:10
dancer 141:5
189:22
dancers 181:7
202:17 205:19
206:10,14 230:4,5
dancing 149:7
155:6,6,11 163:18
163:19 202:22
danny 194:6
dare 52:18
dark 225:7,8
darkness 82:4
date 1:10 18:7
19:12 24:14,16,17
27:10 34:7 36:10
43:17,23 78:8
80:17

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com
202-857-3376

daughter 3:20 9:8
37:3 172:9 186:11
190:1 196:7 198:4
203:4 226:19
daughters 87:21
226:18
dawn 88:2
dawson 1:13
239:2,19
day 9:13 40:22
51:22 85:2 150:15
163:21 169:7
201:6 212:3
233:11,12
days 205:17
dead 67:22
deal 31:19 76:1
148:20 191:6
223:8
dealing 30:22 53:9
54:22
deals 216:10
dean 2:8 4:20
35:10 36:22 72:4
72:6 73:1 75:16
77:16 80:6 108:21
112:10,13 118:13
149:1,3 150:11
153:19 155:7
156:19 187:6,8
189:17 211:5
220:21 224:9
237:20
death 75:6
debate 162:16
168:3 200:20
decades 211:12
decent 210:16
decide 121:1,16
235:6
decided 18:5
123:15 191:17
decides 47:4
197:21

Meeting

[deciding - designs]
deciding 184:13
decipher 123:6
decision 137:2
222:13
declaration 51:14
57:1,5,9,10,17,21
59:16 61:9 62:4
62:10 63:21 70:12
75:7 78:4,5,8
deco 45:7,8
decorative 99:13
decreasing 160:12
dedicated 11:10
84:2
deep 18:4 88:20
210:10
def 228:17
defender 88:9
defer 20:17 61:20
94:9 174:19
deferential 109:10
deficiency 60:3
defines 153:2
definite 70:11
definitely 41:17
52:18 209:10
defy 15:1
degrees 169:11
delaney 171:18
delay 72:8
delegation 51:18
deliberate 42:23
43:1 156:5 159:5
159:8
deliberately
195:10
deliberations 56:6
delightful 185:14
delivery 141:15
demonstrates
47:20
dennis 5:6 25:4,7
25:11 34:12 35:9
45:11 69:4 71:7

April 19, 2022

Page 14
72:3,4 101:2,19
102:1,1,2,4 105:7
106:14 107:11,15
124:8 125:6,9
126:5 130:5
136:10 137:4
151:22 153:21
154:19 157:21,22
160:15 167:14
168:5 185:8,8,9
187:3 189:21
219:7,9 224:4
233:19,21 234:20
235:2 236:7,9
dennis’s 158:16
denomination
14:7,8 126:12,21
130:4 155:2,16,17
156:16
denominations
30:17 130:6
department 13:18
14:1 172:3,17
depending 183:16
213:19
depict 19:8 57:3
92:14 93:4 155:5
197:12
depicted 173:16
196:13 221:13
depicting 219:18
depiction 56:22
73:5 91:8 119:16
143:11 155:19
173:12 181:12
202:21 204:12
206:20 213:9
219:14 220:10
depictions 155:13
206:1
depicts 18:21
57:14 92:6,20
93:10,15,19
119:20 144:14,22

descendants 89:21
described 43:4
121:4 180:1 228:5
228:7 231:2
describing 180:6
description 25:1
deserve 118:4
deserved 67:14
deserves 69:18,20
design 2:15,19,21
11:12 18:12 19:11
25:1,17 27:13
30:5,11 31:10,11
31:12,16 32:8,10
32:11,11 34:17,21
36:17 38:2 39:1,6
43:15 44:3 45:10
45:15,20,22 49:6
49:6,9,9 50:3 51:5
51:5 55:16 56:12
56:20 57:17 58:21
59:17 60:9,15
61:13 65:12 68:2
68:10,12 70:1
76:8,12,13,17
80:4,18 81:11
83:11 85:4 89:12
89:13 90:14 91:11
92:6 95:1 96:5,9
96:10,19,20 98:13
98:17 100:8
104:20 107:21
110:5,12,17,21
111:2 112:21
113:2,2,7,22
114:4,19 116:17
119:2 123:1,9
124:12 128:17
129:3,7 139:1,4,4
140:22 143:13
144:7,13 148:16
149:15 150:6
151:10 152:2,4,9
152:21 153:4

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com
202-857-3376

155:3 157:2
158:17 159:2
160:9 161:19,19
162:9 163:22
164:9,17,21 165:7
165:8 166:1 167:5
167:6,9,12,12,19
170:5,11,12
172:22 174:8,16
175:3,9 178:19
180:21 182:2,16
184:22 185:13,17
187:21 188:7,11
188:12,20,22
189:4 190:12
191:2,2,4,5 192:1
193:1 195:21
196:21 197:19,22
200:5 201:3,11
203:15,22 205:5,9
205:22 212:3
214:21 215:10,20
216:16 217:13,13
218:2,3,21 219:4
219:4,10,22
221:21 224:5,6,17
224:18 225:3
226:13 228:8,10
228:14 230:3,9
232:9,9,10,10,11
232:12,13,13,14
232:15 235:9
236:11
designated 33:12
designed 6:7
41:10 156:9
designer 43:2
59:16 70:4 130:9
designers 59:19
59:20 90:18
205:14
designs 6:9,18
11:3,6,13 12:15
13:3 14:4 18:16

Meeting

[designs - district]
18:17 19:15,19
20:5,14,19 21:15
22:4 25:18,19
27:5 29:18 30:12
30:20 31:6 37:8
43:7,11 47:8 55:3
56:20 58:2,13,15
61:1,8 67:21 70:9
72:12,15 85:5
86:5 89:8,10 91:7
91:8,16,17 94:1,7
94:20,21,22 97:15
98:15 105:2 109:8
110:14,20 113:21
116:14 119:10
126:9,16 142:13
143:5,10,14
145:12,17 146:14
146:17 147:5,7,20
150:7,17 153:18
154:1,8,9,14
155:5,13 158:6
159:15 165:11,13
166:3 171:12
172:7,17 173:5,11
173:16,21 174:6
177:1 182:21
187:16,19 189:1
191:16,17 198:21
201:19 202:20
203:3,14,16 204:2
205:21 207:16
209:15 212:18
216:5 219:13
220:12,14 222:12
230:15 231:5
233:12 234:17
desirable 42:14
desire 49:22 89:17
desires 31:5
desk 57:15 74:9
93:20
destined 11:7
233:13

April 19, 2022

Page 15
destroys 128:11
detail 38:11,12
153:7
detailed 159:17
details 70:3
determination
14:18 17:12 19:10
28:1 32:7,21 36:4
36:4 90:21 134:20
136:14,14 137:2
development
201:21
device 23:8 46:17
devoted 85:10
devotion 18:4
dialogue 136:20
183:17
diana 86:9
didn’t 188:14
199:14 222:4
226:13 230:22
died 17:18 87:14
87:17 102:17
difference 61:10
121:7,8,9 124:13
125:15 152:11
different 26:5,7
41:11 70:7,9
105:11 107:3
109:2 160:10
184:19 193:4,17
198:7 207:6
224:11,12,12
225:12
difficult 21:8,11
31:13 89:8 114:12
184:13 208:17
225:1
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Meeting

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Meeting

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April 19, 2022

Meeting

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202-857-3376

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Meeting

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52:2
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Meeting

[indulging - it’s]
indulging 108:15
inelegantly 175:16
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inequality 93:13
inexperienced
30:2
inferior 97:6
information 77:13
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202-857-3376

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Meeting

[it’s - kind]
216:19,19,19,19
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i’d 150:12 160:19
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i’ll 168:1 174:7
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james 74:1 171:14
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jennifer 3:1 8:8
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jovita 3:18,19 6:9
6:13 9:1 85:5,6,8
85:8 87:10,13,15
87:16,18,18,21
88:1,5,6 89:7,9,14
89:22 90:2,17
91:8 92:1 99:22
110:18 111:9
115:11 117:6
125:22 127:4
128:9 129:7
134:15 234:1
236:11
jumbled 222:2
jumped 33:15
jumping 92:5
june 24:16,19,20
25:2
junior 90:7 109:3
113:20
junk 130:14
justice 55:8 57:7
59:12 78:4 88:19
92:8,10 95:17

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202-857-3376

k
ka 165:3
kanahele 142:9,14
142:16,17 144:6
154:21 163:9,12
165:17,18,19
168:15 169:2,10
kanaka'ole 6:11
6:14 9:4 125:15
125:21 142:10,11
143:10,14 144:14
144:19,22 145:8
kanaka'ole's
143:16 144:11
146:22
Kanaka’ole 141:1
141:4,9,12,22
142:8 166:4
Kanaka’ole's
141:15
kathleen 52:6
kaye 194:7
keep 26:11 62:18
97:20 121:1
147:22 163:1
180:14 212:5
222:13
keeping 16:14
26:15 62:20 97:22
148:2 180:16
keeps 33:11
193:21
kennedy 51:19
kept 188:8 222:13
key 119:16
kickstart 124:4
kidding 100:11
kids 45:16
kind 28:1 40:19
43:3 45:18 56:11
68:18 71:10 80:19
111:16 117:1
123:2 124:12
129:16,17 130:20

Meeting

[kind - left]
131:5,6,22 134:12
156:11 162:6
169:22 194:1
213:17 217:2
220:14 228:22
kinds 30:13
kitlowski 35:17
klimt 96:18 110:7
knew 48:15 53:12
53:13,16,16 89:3
101:10 104:16
183:6 219:11
knock 32:6
know 13:9 20:20
21:7,12,14 22:8
22:15 23:7,14
28:4 33:10 35:6
35:20 38:23 39:22
41:5,6,7,8,9,10,11
41:13,17,18,19
42:2 43:13 65:12
65:14,16 66:19
68:18 69:2,14
70:21 74:16,18
77:7,17,18,20,22
78:2,3 79:5 86:20
99:3,4,5,8,8,10,11
99:12,12,19
102:15,16 104:4
105:2 107:2
108:13 109:4,20
109:20 110:3,13
112:3,20 114:21
115:11,19 117:9
119:18,19,19
120:6,15 121:9,11
121:12 122:6
124:1 125:18
131:9 133:6,7,9
133:10,11,18
135:16,18 136:15
152:1,4,4,5,10
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April 19, 2022

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knowledge 50:13
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kotlowski 2:8 4:20
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lack 95:9 176:3
lacking 67:13
153:5
ladies 69:16 170:9
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lady 51:10 52:21

68:11,17 69:18
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laid 34:18 69:8
land 143:17
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landscape 143:12
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lane 104:14 198:4
language 108:11
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172:3,4 176:11,11
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lannin 2:6 4:16,17
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64:19,21 98:10,11
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large 21:14 128:19
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largely 31:3 40:1
55:5
larger 34:6 36:9
36:15 38:8 223:10
largest 38:14
larkin 202:14
laser 103:8 105:18
106:15

laura 12:11
laurie 13:17
law 11:20 65:19
65:21 201:17
229:12
lawrence 2:3 4:5
5:11 26:14 136:6
138:14 139:6
146:8 157:17
160:4 166:20
199:17 200:9
232:3
laws 14:21
lawyers 65:19
lay 40:21
lead 53:6 99:18
leader 51:10 88:9
202:7
leaders 55:10
88:18,20 211:15
leadership 52:1
leading 14:2 18:2
109:19
lean 44:2 160:11
192:22
leaned 194:16
leaning 134:12,19
193:5
learn 129:5
133:12
learned 15:6
29:20 52:19
141:14 177:8,17
learning 186:15
leather 19:3 38:5

laser's 106:21
late 17:21 59:17
74:6 108:6 139:20
196:14 233:22
latitude 55:6
194:1
latitudes 76:11
lattice 76:11

leave 46:7 81:10
leaves 62:6
leaving 87:14
led 71:20 171:1
213:4
ledanski 240:2,15
left 48:12 59:13
70:6,16 142:20

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202-857-3376

Meeting

161:13 163:17

52:22 53:17,17
59:10 60:8 67:6

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com
202-857-3376

April 19, 2022

162:3 206:17

Meeting

[left - looking]
208:15
leg 175:14 182:12
192:9 213:21
legacy 16:14 20:9
50:12 59:2 63:16
84:2 140:2 142:20
168:16 169:5
171:7 201:8
legal 3:1,3 22:3
24:9 60:21 62:8
62:16 75:14 97:14
146:13 147:19
176:22 180:11
209:15
legally 74:16
legends 235:15
legible 101:13
105:4,21
legislative 3:9
legs 188:20 193:14
lei 143:15 148:17
length 40:13
lens 141:19
letter 6:5 9:20
lettering 27:8,9
36:18 41:19 68:12
68:13 70:7 103:7
184:22 216:11
221:20
letters 10:15 46:16
96:8 104:11,12
105:20 126:12
162:12,21
let’s 151:13
152:13 153:13
154:19 157:11
159:13 160:22
166:12 181:4
182:19 183:21
184:10 185:8
187:6 189:18
191:11 193:6
215:3 217:21
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April 19, 2022

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level 24:1 208:11
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188:11
liaison’s 157:8
liberties 51:16
liberty 12:13
library 13:14
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license 14:17 15:9
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life 32:18 63:11
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lifetime 17:13
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light 82:3 153:7
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likeness 21:9,17
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likes 99:9
limited 12:20

limiting 111:13
line 121:12 147:4
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linear 229:7
lines 42:15,21
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lisa 52:6
list 15:16 79:7
listed 111:1
listen 183:2
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listening 6:1 79:21
80:2 82:5
literal 121:19
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literally 21:21
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literary 54:9
literature 121:4
little 23:13 30:10
36:8,8,9,19 45:18
48:8 55:21 75:12
85:8 86:16 109:17
110:4,19 111:4,18
128:7 132:20
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188:13,17 194:15
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215:5 221:6 222:6
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live 66:3 88:15
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lived 88:14
lives 66:21 89:21
117:13
living 215:14
liz 3:18 9:1 86:18
lobbying 26:6
60:11 96:3 104:13
122:3 123:17

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202-857-3376

location 1:12
logistical 19:7
london 77:6
lone 115:3
long 19:3 38:5
40:4 56:13 214:5
230:10
longer 90:17
117:22 166:9
longest 137:16
longitude 55:5
76:11
longworth 66:18
look 18:9 20:21,22
21:1 27:12 28:1
28:21 29:1 36:6
36:17 38:4 40:16
43:20 46:12 55:18
58:11 64:7 84:7
103:14,16,18
106:6,13 107:2,4
112:2 117:4,5,7
118:5 120:14
128:5,10 129:4
133:6,11,11,12,14
133:17,19,20
149:15 150:16
162:5 174:21
175:19 182:5
207:17 209:11
213:17 215:8,8,11
215:18,18 220:14
223:17 224:10
looked 32:1 43:10
54:11 55:15 67:15
67:21 113:16
128:3 190:9 214:3
219:20 221:6
224:5 225:22
looking 18:8 21:19
21:20 27:7 28:2
28:12,15 36:5
46:4 110:14 115:2
123:6 127:22

Meeting

[looking - matter]
133:13 149:6
150:18 172:18
197:14,16 216:4
221:12 226:6
lookout 172:4
looks 27:20
102:13,16 150:18
158:13 176:8
loop 15:11
looped 15:11
lopez 3:18 9:1
86:12,13,14,19
87:19,21 91:2,5
101:4 119:7,8
134:4,11 135:1,9
135:9,16 136:13
140:1
lord 99:20
lose 36:10 95:7
lost 90:12 126:3
lot 27:5 37:8 43:16
45:20 48:1 56:14
56:14 67:4 104:16
108:20 109:12
111:21,22 118:4
118:14 120:15
123:16 132:5
133:12 147:4
149:11,12 150:22
156:18 183:10,10
198:9 209:8
211:14 217:7,9
221:17 224:14,16
225:9 227:7,9
228:2 235:10
louis 13:19
love 18:4 33:21
35:5 41:5 66:5
76:8 84:13 99:2,3
99:6,21,22 101:8
107:21 116:18
119:4 150:19
155:5 158:7
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April 19, 2022

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lovers 120:22
low 31:14
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luck 82:1
lunar 208:8,8
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lunch 140:5,7,11
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m
ma'am 16:19
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machine 128:6
madam 198:3
229:21
magically 194:9
magnificence
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magnificent 59:18
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mahalo 165:13
mai 165:3
mail 47:11
main 10:18
mainstream 127:2
maintained
141:22
maintaining
161:15
majesty 60:4
major 141:15
majority 127:19
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237:5

makers 120:22
making 22:17
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139:1 152:10
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200:5,18 211:17
232:12
malign 175:1
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manage 195:4
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managed 169:17
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management 2:15
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manager 2:16,17
2:18,19,21 61:13
171:15 172:22
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managers 56:12
136:15
manufacturing
122:5
map 102:22
margie 206:18
margolis 15:19
16:3
maria 3:20 6:16
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203:18 204:2,3,7
204:10,12,14
208:5 213:2,10,21
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222:5 223:13
225:12 227:2

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202-857-3376

230:1,3
marian 17:21
marianna 86:6
marjorie 13:22
202:13 206:18
mark 14:10
market 227:7
marks 186:1
married 87:18
martha 3:19 9:2
86:13 87:20 91:2
134:11
marvelous 63:16
mary 2:6 4:16
24:11,22 25:4
27:16 28:7 30:3
44:16 64:18 73:22
98:10,20 114:18
122:10,11,17,18
123:13 139:19,21
150:12,13 151:13
181:21 183:8
213:14,15 215:3,5
218:9
mary’s 221:5
226:12
massachusetts
16:2
master 59:19
105:17 172:4
masterful 30:4
masterfully 90:1
masterpiece 89:5
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masterpieces 11:4
11:8 233:14
mastery 96:18
material 16:6
matt 105:18
matter 42:20
44:17 107:4 175:7
177:18 180:11
228:8 236:17

Meeting

[matters - mind]
matters 10:17
44:22
maximize 208:21
maximizing 21:17
maximum 166:12
199:6
maya 183:13
188:16,18
ma’am 165:21
168:21
mcnutt 73:12
mean 23:8 24:17
32:11 77:9 78:3,4
94:13 99:6 103:22
107:3 120:13
124:12 127:20
131:21 135:3
163:19 175:19
176:17 182:3
183:3 187:5 192:8
197:9 205:15
206:10 215:19
227:18
meandering
148:19
meaning 33:13
88:17 211:19
means 138:2
151:6 173:15
179:3
meant 169:17
medal 30:5 41:6
96:22 101:9
103:15 107:10
116:19
medals 29:19
media 7:4,5 127:2
meet 37:5 66:5
meeting 1:6,12 4:3
4:5,9 5:17 6:4,6
9:21 10:20,21
53:7 76:3 107:13
142:3 169:9
171:11 177:8,18

April 19, 2022

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209:7,14 212:1
222:14 227:13
230:14 231:10
232:8,17 237:12
member’s 174:8
memo 177:20
memories 89:15
memory 54:4

menna 2:20 8:2,3
20:13,16,16 21:5
22:14,14 25:15,16
39:12 42:12 46:10
58:18,18 60:17
72:7,9 79:14
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129:14,14 134:13
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menna's 38:7
menno 39:9
mention 70:2
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mentioned 52:4
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233:11 235:15
mentioning 113:5
143:3
mere 53:14
merit 82:19 83:16
159:17 182:22
184:6
merits 6:16 82:11
message 219:3
messing 80:20
met 73:22 74:4
84:16 176:3
metallic 67:18

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202-857-3376

methodist 88:12
mexican 85:9,13
85:17,20 88:8
92:11,21 93:14
mexico 92:22
michael 2:9 4:22
94:9
michele 2:22 8:6
79:14
michelle 171:18
microphone 5:18
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57:16
mid 184:2
middle 194:20
might've 84:16
mike 2:21 3:11 7:4
8:4 20:13,17,18
22:5,14 23:15
29:4,9,11 33:4
46:1,4 58:15
66:12 68:6 79:14
79:18,19 94:5
99:16,17 100:11
105:22 106:9,10
122:7 127:12,16
129:1,16,18
145:15 146:9
152:14,16 153:13
161:2,3,6 169:13
169:15,16 170:8
174:15,19 183:22
184:9 185:16
194:20 195:13
207:14,20 208:1
217:21 218:1,12
mike's 105:18
mike’s 158:6
miller 13:12
mind 156:12
188:17 205:12,18
206:14 218:19
222:13 234:10

Meeting

[mind's - museums]
mind's 65:1
mindful 42:7
230:12
minds 228:2
mindset 43:18
mine 109:15
minimum 110:16
minorities 51:17
mint 1:5 2:14,20
3:12 7:10 9:14,17
11:10,11 24:18
46:22 47:11 56:15
58:20 59:8 72:14
79:14,15 83:20
96:7,17 97:3,9
100:3 122:4,5
140:22 155:21
161:18 166:7
167:17 195:20
197:21 199:1
201:18 221:10
230:2 237:13
mint's 35:6 39:18
51:4
minted 125:12
127:8
mints 85:4 131:11
minute 152:19
231:16
minutes 6:5 9:21
10:3,14,15 26:12
26:18 47:14,15,19
47:20 48:4,13,15
62:19 63:1 83:6
97:20 98:3 137:12
146:16 148:1,7
166:10,12 180:14
180:19 199:4,6
212:6 231:15
mirrors 221:14
misheard 60:15
misleading 194:17
mispronounce
6:10

April 19, 2022

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mistake 53:1
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modify 167:17
mogri 172:3
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monopoly 58:8
month 150:15
montiel 171:16
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moons 202:15
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moran 2:9 4:22
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morning 4:4 16:20
27:17 38:1 48:23
75:13 169:11
morphing 143:15
159:4,5,8

morris 13:20
morsel 196:4
moscelyne 202:14
mossman 142:9
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163:9,12 165:17
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mother 17:21
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186:9,16,17,18
196:11,12,14,16
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mothers 88:3
89:20
mother’s 186:6
motion 10:2,8,13
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49:22 50:7 80:3
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168:1,9,13 184:2
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motions 44:6 50:8
79:12 139:7,16,22
160:20 167:14
193:7 195:18
200:9 201:3
227:14 229:6
230:15 232:17
233:9 237:9
motivate 52:3

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202-857-3376

mountain 164:5,6
164:8,14
mouth 120:15
123:8
move 10:18 29:4
33:19 44:4 64:1,2
64:17 80:4 83:17
83:20 100:12
108:20 125:16
143:4 174:5
182:13 187:6
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moved 10:5 114:4
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237:18
movement 14:3
37:9 224:15
movements 229:8
moves 140:8
movie 100:4
movies 194:7
moving 9:13 66:12
68:7 100:15
203:13 236:10
muddled 223:7
mujer 92:18
multiple 21:13
30:17 102:2
142:21 230:5
mural 202:15
muscles 189:9,10
museum 12:9 13:5
15:17,20,22 16:5
19:21 37:4 52:4,7
57:13 86:2,8
91:19 144:4
171:10,13,17,19
174:10 203:5
210:10,21
museum's 13:10
142:2
museums 142:1

Meeting

[music - number]
music 176:7
229:17,18
mute 5:18 6:1,22
23:16 49:15,16
53:2 64:10 86:17
86:19 198:1
199:15
muting 49:16
myra 202:13
myriad 51:21
210:7
n
n 2:1 4:1
nail 159:10,10
name 4:12 5:19
6:11 7:11 14:5
16:21 27:10 34:21
37:13 42:22 53:14
68:13,22 91:1,2
92:1,9 103:4,12
112:10 117:6,9
129:19,22 131:18
134:11 146:11
151:17,17 162:7
170:20 173:14,17
185:20 196:9,22
217:16 219:13
225:17,19 230:6
named 18:1
names 59:20
namesake 54:5
87:16
naming 59:20
nancy 3:16 8:21
52:12 54:8,11,17
56:6 65:16 70:17
172:5 197:14,16
203:8
narrative 80:22
narratives 109:14
nation 15:16
169:5 171:21
172:1,2,3,4 179:3
203:10,11

April 19, 2022

Page 32
national 10:22
12:8 13:4,10
15:20,22 16:4
19:21 34:22 52:3
52:7 57:12 86:1
91:18 92:22 142:1
171:10,13,17
174:10 203:5
204:18 205:4
210:10,21
nations 51:11,18
70:22 81:13
210:14
native 3:5 6:19 9:9
14:15 141:16
143:11 170:17
171:7,16 185:20
186:7 201:16,21
202:10 203:18
204:6,17,19 205:2
205:19 206:10
207:8 209:20
210:1,4 211:2,12
nature 77:11,19
106:22 195:2
208:17
nay 168:12 237:6
237:6
neat 110:8 131:6
necessarily 22:11
127:21 161:14
necessary 132:4
237:5
neck 102:21
146:22
necklace 92:16
need 9:15 23:22
45:14 49:20 82:18
82:21,21 102:15
105:5 107:17
111:7 120:22
121:15 128:18
132:14 212:20
236:4,18,19,21,22

needed 87:5,8
125:16
needing 44:13
needs 51:16 55:17
55:21 101:17
116:22
negative 32:12
96:21 99:3,11
153:1,7 158:7
191:5,7 216:14
neither 69:1
239:11 240:7
netherlands 54:6
neutral 103:10
never 17:10 96:22
101:22 102:5
103:20 105:2
107:3 108:6
122:22 153:15
new 66:3 77:5
84:12 90:16
120:17 141:19
201:18 218:2
newer 29:13
news 3:11,12
71:14 85:16
newspaper 91:22
92:15 93:12,16
110:22
newspaper's
108:12
newspapers 93:6
nice 16:21 35:23
38:10 41:8 65:11
66:8 70:5,8
110:20 149:8
150:7,21 154:21
162:7 211:18
213:3 216:1,19
220:12
nicely 162:4
niece 3:14 8:18
16:13

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com
202-857-3376

nine 167:8
nobody's 102:12
nod 92:9,22
non 128:4 157:9
211:19
nonprofit 16:15
norm 169:20
normally 22:12
65:13 128:5
169:19
northeast 164:7
164:15
notary 1:13 239:1
239:19
note 18:17 25:19
26:7 33:9 46:12
57:12 68:15 143:4
143:9 173:11,21
174:7 178:13
201:12
noted 15:17 16:11
56:18 171:11
notes 143:3 178:6
noticed 24:13
noting 91:9
notion 21:19
notions 39:15
notwithstanding
192:8
nouveau 154:9
159:7,9
novelty 130:3
161:14
number 29:17
32:8 33:15 34:9,9
36:6 37:9,14
38:11 41:23,23
42:13 49:2,3,4,4,5
52:20 64:4,7 65:3
98:13 99:20 101:8
101:8 103:2 108:3
109:1 111:2
112:17 113:6,8,10
114:7 115:21

Meeting

[number - osage]
117:1,7,7,11,15
118:8 119:20,22
124:10 127:18
152:8 155:12
169:18 179:19
181:9,14,18 182:2
182:10,15 183:9
183:16 184:15,15
184:16,19,20
185:5,6,12 188:8
189:14 190:7
194:4,13 196:10
197:4,11,18 198:5
198:15 204:16
205:22 206:2,5,6
206:21,22 212:19
213:1,6,11,17
214:13,14,20
215:6,7 216:6,18
217:14 218:3,4,16
218:22 219:5
220:1,1,5,8,11,18
221:6,6,16,17,22
222:5,14,15,15,22
223:5,19,21
228:12,16,20
230:7,20 231:6
234:3 235:7,8,8
numbers 162:22
175:11
numerals 14:9
126:17 151:4
155:22
numismatic 30:7
30:12 127:1 156:2
227:5
nunn 86:6
nurse 93:2
nurtured 87:17
nutcracker 171:3
229:14
nutritious 140:20

April 19, 2022

Page 33
217:17 224:6
okay 16:20 18:16
o 4:1
38:17,20 53:2
o'hare 18:2
64:21 83:18,20
object 78:6
85:8 94:13 99:2
objection 10:14,14
100:15 101:1
75:14 160:12
112:12 140:10
objectionable
147:17 150:13
62:11
151:14,19 155:19
objections 10:13
155:20 161:7
objects 208:9,12
173:11 213:15
observatory 16:1
oklahoma 202:10
obtained 24:15
206:12
obtaining 17:6
old 17:9 87:15,15
18:1
102:17 186:11
obverse 12:10,13
194:7 229:12,12
21:12
oldest 74:2,6
obvious 21:6
ole 141:12
176:13
oli 165:4
obviously 37:18
once 26:14 47:21
62:1 190:13
49:8 67:7 128:8
214:11
138:18 139:3
occasion 68:21
167:2,11 181:7
81:14
199:21 200:6
occurring 10:21
205:13 212:17
odd 88:4 130:21
229:12 232:7,14
130:21
ones 26:6 113:5
odds 15:1 39:7
131:2 175:10,11
oe 165:13
184:15 186:4
offend 39:13
197:10
offense 39:12
ooh 40:16
offer 49:22 56:1
op 156:3
62:4 71:8 81:2
open 17:19 62:7
123:9 139:8
84:15 130:18
offered 236:5
222:13
offering 84:19
opened 17:20
office 2:15 3:8
195:19
11:12 51:4 85:4
140:22,22 170:11 opera 171:5
opinion 59:4,21
officer 239:2
60:10 102:10
official 125:18
104:3 131:20
oftentimes 54:22
162:9,13 238:2
196:15
opinions 228:2
oh 67:1 98:11
103:17,18 215:19
o

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202-857-3376

opportunities
111:12
opportunity 42:9
43:6,22 44:1
49:21 56:1,4 59:2
70:18 71:8 79:2,9
84:20 119:5 124:4
124:10,22 131:12
142:19 146:3
207:5 230:13
oppose 139:17
opposed 50:6
80:10 129:7
139:13 168:12
187:18 201:1
227:5 233:7 237:6
optical 23:12
option 25:12
optional 39:20
options 178:17
order 4:5,9 25:10
125:11 208:14,21
228:4
ordinary 129:3
organic 154:8
229:1,11
organization 30:1
107:1
organizations
31:2
organizing 88:18
original 26:1,2
134:18 177:9
216:6
originally 32:8
197:6
originates 164:13
ornament 234:7
ornamentation
236:13
orthography
173:16 197:1
osage 170:21
171:21 172:1,1,2

Meeting

[osage - perseverance]
172:4 173:14,16
173:18 174:1
190:15 196:22
203:10,11,20
oss 30:3
ounce 35:5
outcome 239:16
240:12
outline 93:17
outreach 178:10
outset 115:10
outside 58:7 98:18
outstanding 59:22
69:3 75:15 83:1
83:18,20 94:2
217:19
outstretched
188:19,19
overall 27:12
37:19 45:9 228:13
overcome 28:16
overlaps 208:20
overlooked 90:18
114:16
overly 109:9
oversaw 51:13
oversees 210:4
overt 14:21
overwhelmed
43:11 113:19
overwhelmingly
128:18
p
p 2:1,1 4:1
p.m. 138:12 140:6
140:11,14,17
166:16,19 199:9
231:20 232:1
238:6,7
pacific 142:6
pacifica 142:5
package 67:12,16
83:3

April 19, 2022

Page 34
packaged 227:9
packets 166:6
page 121:10
223:11
painting 121:7
pair 204:12
pairs 105:11
palette 216:9
pallet 39:4 183:12
pam 2:18 7:18
53:6,8 55:2 56:11
56:18 61:13,14,17
70:20 71:19
paper 229:3,5
papers 13:17 57:4
57:15
paris 171:4
park 75:20 84:12
parker 186:8
part 23:4 36:12
43:2 60:3 66:20
118:16 119:6
128:1 164:9
173:13 190:10
192:8 201:6 214:1
220:10
partially 208:12
participants
168:11 200:22
233:6 237:3 238:1
participate 52:17
54:21 56:3 146:3
participating 76:3
participation
185:11 186:18
particular 27:13
30:2,9 60:5 61:16
68:12 76:13 81:11
164:17 165:6
214:8 220:17
224:17
particularly 29:12
29:20 30:16 38:3
43:17 54:20 67:15

71:15 75:21 76:4
116:22 123:13
164:4 210:9 225:5
parties 239:12,14
240:8,11
partly 118:5
partners 54:4
partnerships
16:15
parts 65:20 79:6
paschen 3:20 9:8
9:8 172:8,10,11
172:13,21 178:20
179:22 180:1
185:10,21 186:20
190:5 191:14
196:2,6 201:5
203:4 205:4,8,12
207:13 230:17,19
231:8 234:8,10,14
paschen’s 219:16
pass 24:8 117:2
124:10,22,22
236:20
passed 50:7
168:13 196:12,12
201:2 233:8
passes 237:7
passion 59:12
122:13
pathbreakers
149:22
patience 53:8
138:18
pattern 92:20
108:5
paul 3:13 7:2
73:12
pause 44:4 125:1
174:7 233:18
pave 15:2
pcr 20:20
peer 211:9

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202-857-3376

pejorative 229:2
pen 92:9
pennsylvania
229:13
pensive 89:17
people 14:19 39:5
40:15,23 45:20
53:10 81:12 89:18
90:10 95:4 99:8
107:17 112:2
117:3,5 130:2
131:17 155:4
165:5 186:2
187:19 188:10
189:2 194:4
202:18
people's 117:3
people’s 215:13
215:15
percent 26:2
122:20 124:21,21
percussion 144:16
perfect 176:1
198:14
perfectly 37:20
176:7
perform 15:14
performance
189:8 202:3
229:17,18
performances
144:17 174:3
203:22
performed 15:10
15:13 141:14
performing 20:1
144:20 187:15
period 43:2 45:6,7
77:13 100:9
115:16
permission 101:20
perseverance
17:12 36:4 189:11

Meeting

[person - points]
person 14:13 40:9
40:10,21 51:8
54:1 74:8 96:12
115:16 120:1
129:3 133:13
149:16 154:10
209:18
personage 108:4
personal 34:15,16
55:13 68:15 73:8
personality 15:2
personally 31:7
94:21 185:22
235:4
persons 132:5
perspective 23:3
40:19 60:12 68:3
95:9,16 96:2 97:4
100:18 146:5
158:17 175:9
192:18 208:16
pertaining 62:15
petals 214:1
peter 2:4 4:12
10:4 36:23 44:18
45:14 75:17,19
76:14 112:14,16
140:9 146:19
147:3 158:2,4
159:13 167:22
189:18,20 194:13
200:14,18 222:18
222:20 228:5,17
232:22 237:17
phases 231:2
phebe 59:1 107:6
107:7
phenomenal 11:9
50:12 85:2 192:20
201:8 206:11
237:14
phenomenally
132:9

April 19, 2022

Page 35
philately 75:12
philosophy 145:9
phone 5:18 6:1 7:2
24:12 29:7 49:15
49:15,17
photographs
196:16
phrase 58:6
185:18 210:1
phrased 193:18
phrasing 193:13
209:21
physical 60:9
physically 155:6
physician 226:6
physicians 58:8
pick 30:16 40:17
40:20 65:11 66:16
115:14 123:5
183:7,9 215:7
223:8
picked 60:11
195:5 214:11
pictorial 36:8
picture 65:2
102:14,16
piece 30:18 67:19
78:2
pieces 156:10
223:9
piggybacking
106:12
pilgrimage 76:1
pilot 14:14,16
17:6,15 28:17
32:21
pilot's 14:17 15:9
19:13 24:15 32:17
36:10
pin 45:18
pioneer 14:14
17:1
place 31:20 76:2
162:17 164:6

234:4
placed 229:6
places 75:21
plain 27:20 41:23
99:22
plane 20:2 22:10
23:6,9 46:5,13,13
46:15
planes 22:22
planet 122:5
planned 125:17
plant 144:18
plate 35:22
platitude 133:10
play 65:20
played 52:1
please 4:11 6:11
7:11 10:9 26:11
26:19 33:9 47:11
49:15 50:3 56:8
61:5 62:18,22
63:3 64:14 79:20
83:4 84:6 91:1
94:15 97:20 98:1
98:5 100:3,3,3
106:7 112:14
115:8 116:4,9
123:16 128:1,13
128:15 129:9,11
135:14 136:11
137:9 138:5 143:7
146:11,11,20
147:22 148:6,9
151:18 166:7
168:9 173:8
180:14,15,18,21
199:1,15 212:9,13
227:20 230:19
231:13
pleases 179:8
pleasing 160:7
pleasure 16:22
18:15 37:5 53:22
65:17 189:22

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com
202-857-3376

190:6 226:5
234:13
plovers 144:16
plum 171:3
pluribus 14:7
103:18 234:5
236:14
plus 29:14 30:8
po'o 143:15
poetry 121:8
point 15:14 23:11
23:17 25:4,14
32:19 33:9,15
43:21 72:8 81:5,6
83:2 87:6 94:5
95:5 98:6 119:4
120:21 121:17
137:5,6 145:15
150:2 152:20
154:13 160:19,21
160:22 163:8,17
171:6 175:2
176:16 177:8,19
186:5 187:9
188:21 211:11
213:3 215:6 217:6
228:18
pointed 32:13
77:17 185:16
188:3 195:21
203:17
pointes 182:15
pointing 187:12
points 49:2,3,3,4,5
49:5,7,7,8,8,10
65:21 138:19
139:5 167:4,5,7,8
167:8,9,10,10,11
167:12 189:12
199:22 200:2,2,3
200:4,4,6,6 228:3
232:8,9,10,11,11
232:12,14 235:1

Meeting

[policy - primary]
policy 211:8
polish 95:9,13
polished 103:6
194:22 208:7
political 52:7
88:11
pontificate 176:17
poor 37:3 51:17
pop 103:9 105:20
106:21 107:1
190:17
popular 65:22
198:8
population 165:5
portfolio 13:9
14:12 15:18 20:5
21:6 33:21 35:7
37:5,7 52:5 56:16
56:18 58:2 86:3
108:2 113:16
116:13 118:3,3
124:14 125:16
145:12 151:11
152:3 181:7 184:5
184:7 187:9,22
190:4 191:15
192:20 205:11
216:4 217:8,8
219:10 220:13,18
221:2 224:22
236:11
portfolios 13:11
14:5 56:13 70:9
109:4
portion 6:3
portions 223:2
portrait 21:15
35:4 36:9,16
37:14,15,17 38:8
38:14 40:6,11
42:16 59:5 64:5
69:9,11 73:4,5,15
76:9 89:14,16
90:3,4,5 95:2,6

April 19, 2022

Page 36
100:21 101:14
102:10 114:6
117:12 119:21
144:9
portraits 26:1
39:20 60:2,7
102:19 113:7
portray 19:16
22:9 57:6 143:14
144:19
pose 78:10 125:9
143:6 173:13
184:4,17 185:14
192:4,4,10 225:9
position 40:8
120:16,18 210:13
positive 106:3
195:2
possession 78:20
possessive 177:5
177:15
possible 49:2
131:15 138:19
161:19 167:3
211:1 232:8
possibly 37:4
52:12 115:18
234:6
postage 18:1
posted 117:9
poster 100:5
potential 21:17
199:22
potentially 125:19
poverty 85:18
practices 85:12
141:21
practicing 176:13
practitioner
141:10
praise 114:19
pratt 172:1 203:11
precedent 156:6

predecessors
120:16
preempt 228:1
preface 75:19
prefer 36:7 108:8
110:21 121:10
205:4 206:13
preference 19:20
27:6,14 34:16
37:11,19 57:11,13
61:15 143:4 144:3
144:7 159:19
174:9 205:6
219:10,12 222:21
225:10
preferences 91:17
135:19 203:12
preferred 19:14
19:19 57:18 76:6
76:7 91:17,20
174:8 190:7 211:3
preparation 19:9
prepared 155:21
240:3
prequel 133:1
prescription
22:16,16
presence 115:10
191:14
present 3:10 4:13
4:15,17,19,21 5:1
5:3,7,9 7:11,13,15
7:17,19,21 8:1,3,5
8:7,9,11,14 11:12
30:18 47:13 48:21
49:1 51:5 53:20
67:13 83:6 85:4
105:2 118:7
137:11 138:15
140:22 147:5
163:21 166:9,22
170:11 175:3
199:3,18 209:8
231:15 232:4

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com
202-857-3376

presentation 45:8
45:10 54:6 160:8
presented 55:3
59:8 103:20 133:8
147:11 157:4
167:20
presenter 143:13
presenting 11:17
presently 54:5
presents 53:18
present’ 4:11
preservation
143:17
preserving 141:16
president 51:11
51:19 79:4
president's 51:20
presidential 11:2
13:14 58:21 75:22
81:13
presidents 75:1
press 6:22 127:1
175:7
prestigious 171:1
pretty 154:1
183:15,15 216:19
216:20 217:13
219:4
prevalent 165:4
previous 56:16
225:21
previously 28:20
161:10 191:3
pride 51:2
prima 170:16
174:4 177:6,9,13
177:16,21,22
178:3,12,16 179:1
179:16 180:5
182:8 185:1,18
186:19 202:5
primarily 121:21
primary 121:22
161:16

Meeting

[principally - quarters]

April 19, 2022

Page 37

principally 112:4
prior 5:19 26:13
62:19 97:21 148:2
180:15 239:5
private 111:14

professor 13:20
13:21 14:1 109:12
109:17 110:6
proffer 178:16
profile 12:12

proof 106:16,17
106:20,21 107:2
194:22
propeller 22:9,20
23:2,7,9,11 27:20

privilege 87:8
168:19
privileged 142:17
proactive 160:17
proactively 156:8
probably 5:14
6:10 47:20 53:16
55:9,17,20 63:12
103:8 105:19
109:5 115:6,21
124:19 127:16
137:16 140:3
151:21 159:19
163:1 185:5
186:12 194:17,22
214:11 218:1
220:6 221:4
233:14,15
problem 182:8
223:5 230:9
problems 24:12
proceed 61:5
94:15 97:17
146:20
proceeding 238:8
240:4
proceedings 6:20
239:3,5,6,9 240:6
process 12:5 29:22
54:20,21 71:17,22
87:1 88:4 90:20
134:3 135:3,21
137:1 161:20
173:4 185:11
proclamation 11:2
product 195:6
227:5
products 11:8

profound 60:5
67:4 96:20 152:4
228:11
program 2:16,17
2:18,22 3:5,6 8:17
11:20 12:15 22:3
26:19,22 60:22
63:3,6 69:15,15
69:17,19 97:15
98:5,8 100:8
101:15 107:8
113:1 118:7
136:15 146:13
148:9,11 149:19
173:1 177:1
180:21 181:2
187:12 198:6
207:7 210:5,7
212:11
programs 16:15
207:6
progressive 88:10
progressives
105:12
project 13:17
prominence
208:14
prominent 12:2
12:17 87:10 95:18
prominently
203:16
promise 42:10
121:21
promoting 52:2
prompt 131:19
promptly 140:11
pronounced
143:19 186:10

44:11,13,20,21,23
45:14 46:6
propellers 22:17
23:5
proper 210:5
properly 62:9
proposal 211:8
propose 140:5
prose 121:9
proud 170:21
186:13
provide 21:16
47:17
provided 171:21
provides 208:22
pseudonyms 92:7
public 1:13 5:22
6:2,4 9:21 11:20
13:13 15:12 33:13
33:13 36:15 45:23
53:12 115:7,13,14
175:7 201:17
239:1,19
publications
85:17
publicity 123:8
publishing 7:7
pull 106:1,2
208:17 209:3
purchase 43:21
purely 96:2
purpose 115:4
pursue 85:13
push 153:22
pushing 189:6
put 23:16 31:17
65:6 70:4 100:21
102:5 123:3

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com
202-857-3376

214:22 222:3
putting 80:20
128:12 205:12
q
qr 131:21
qualified 239:7
qualifiers 88:16
qualitative 121:9
quality 60:7 144:8
quarter 11:14
12:1 14:9 22:4
31:12 32:12,14
35:1 39:5,8 44:20
47:9 51:1,6 56:5
61:1 67:20 69:20
81:11 85:5,6
97:15 101:13
103:15 107:12
110:4 113:1
126:11,14,20
131:5 141:2
143:10 144:13
146:14 149:10,15
151:6 152:17
153:8,21 154:11
155:18,18 158:12
158:12,13 160:8
160:10,18 161:13
162:7,8 166:4
170:13 171:12
172:16 177:1
182:12 183:11
187:17,17,19
188:16,18 192:3
198:21 206:8
209:16 215:7
227:2 234:1
quarters 3:5 6:8
8:17 11:14,20
12:5,11 29:18
90:15 100:8 107:9
118:6 130:7 131:5

Meeting

195:1

169:17 172:17

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com
202-857-3376

April 19, 2022

214:7 220:15
225:14

Meeting

[query - recess]
query 178:7
question 23:14,19
24:13,18 25:5,17
38:22 44:10 45:13
50:2 61:4 62:1,2,3
62:8,13 67:5,22
78:9 116:16
124:17 125:10,13
129:1,8 132:20
133:15 134:21
139:10 146:19
163:15 168:8
177:4,7 178:2,5
184:4 200:21
209:20
questioning
177:12
questions 22:3
24:10 26:19 44:5
56:8 60:22 62:15
63:3 97:14 98:5
107:19 123:19
129:15 143:6
146:13,16 147:19
148:9 173:10
176:22 180:10,20
209:15 212:1,12
218:18 236:16
quick 193:13
215:7
quickly 47:22
117:3 123:13
138:1 209:18
quite 37:14 45:4
50:14 114:16
153:18 154:14
190:3 197:15
217:2 227:3
quorum 4:8,10
5:12 48:10
quotation 111:2
112:5 114:5 117:8
quote 12:16 13:2

April 19, 2022

Page 38
111:8,20 112:2,18
quotes 131:16
quoting 193:16
r
r 2:1 4:1
r04a 27:6,19
r05 27:22
racial 93:13
racially 13:1
racism 14:21
17:17 85:17
radiating 93:2
108:4
rainbow 145:8
raise 23:22 79:18
107:20 109:21
146:15
raised 18:3 44:10
44:15 79:1 87:16
107:19 177:7
208:9
raising 33:11
157:9
ran 51:22
randomly 229:6
reach 87:6 173:10
178:20 187:4
227:16
reached 178:15
reaching 105:5
reaction 108:1
read 21:14 66:16
81:19 117:10
120:2 131:18
147:11 175:10
readability 21:11
40:6
readable 101:13
readers 105:11
reading 24:14
105:6
reads 24:16 57:20

ready 138:5 156:1
real 37:5 189:22
190:6
reality 131:22
realize 128:8

216:4,15 219:1
220:1 222:11,22
223:4,6,16,20,20
225:3 226:13
228:21 229:22

190:10 199:14
really 18:15 20:20
21:14 22:15 25:22
28:5,21 29:21
31:1 32:20 34:3,3
35:10 36:3 37:4,7
37:8,11,14 38:21
39:8 41:5,8 43:13
45:4,9 46:17,20
50:9 52:22 62:7
64:5 65:15 67:13
68:4 71:17 74:14
74:14 76:2,2,10
76:11 77:14,14,21
78:12,19 79:5,7
82:2 83:22 97:12
100:11 108:19
110:1,5,8,8,8
112:13,20,22
113:9 114:20
115:18 117:2,19
118:10,21 119:9
121:13 124:20
128:17 132:9
133:9,22 136:14
150:20 152:6,13
152:21 153:4,18
154:1,1,9 158:9
159:2 160:6 163:6
164:2,3,10 165:21
172:18,21 179:13
182:16 183:5
184:3 187:5
188:20 190:3,11
190:17,18 192:1,7
192:20 195:14,22
196:6,18 206:10
206:17 212:21

230:21
reappointed 51:18
reason 39:23
42:19 67:16 95:8
128:16 137:17
165:7 190:10
193:5 225:11
235:4
reasonable 71:10
reasoned 104:17
reasoning 229:20
reasons 27:5
28:20 34:18 44:2
69:8 73:2 89:11
124:11 165:1
177:11 187:16
188:4 189:2 191:3
192:2 193:1 225:4
reassure 136:13
recalls 221:13
receive 17:15
30:14
received 19:13
43:23 47:10 49:3
49:3,4,4,5,6,7,7,8
83:3 137:8 138:20
138:20,20,21,21
138:22,22 139:1,2
139:2,3,3 144:5
166:5 167:5,7,8,8
167:9,10,10,11
198:22 200:1,2,3
200:3,4,4,6 232:9
232:10,10,11,11
232:12,13
recess 47:16 48:3
48:6,16 138:4,8
140:5,7,11 199:5

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com
202-857-3376

Meeting

82:3 108:13 111:6

82:3

213:10 214:3

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com
202-857-3376

April 19, 2022

231:16

Meeting

[recipient - representing]
recipient 29:20
recognition 17:22
173:18 202:11
recognize 10:19
40:8,10 45:21
48:20 80:12 90:14
117:15 128:15
132:7,15 138:14
166:21 199:17
227:10 232:3
recognized 14:2
26:21 63:5 98:7
148:10 181:1
212:10
recognizing 55:11
recollection 55:7
recommend 95:21
210:22 234:4
recommendation
29:22 31:6 136:16
137:2,19 234:2
235:7
recommendations
31:19 136:17
reconcile 228:11
record 7:9 48:5,18
60:14 91:1 138:9
138:10,11 140:12
140:15,16 166:15
166:18 199:8,14
201:15 207:3
231:19 232:1
236:8 238:5 239:9
240:5
recorded 239:6
recording 239:8
240:4
redesign 11:21
redirecting 30:4
reduced 239:7
redundant 198:16
refer 62:11 88:5
reference 173:19
174:1 191:4

April 19, 2022

Page 39

203:18,20
references 218:16
referred 62:5,12
referring 60:15
102:20 106:15
160:15
reflect 67:14
reflecting 65:5
reflective 19:10
25:20
reflects 164:1
reformer 51:10
refrain 26:19 63:3
98:6 148:9 180:22
212:9
refused 15:4 85:21
170:20
refusing 15:14
regard 26:7
165:14 194:12
224:5
regarding 10:17
46:11 94:7 125:20
147:19 160:5
161:8 207:15
regards 90:10
134:9 163:16
regret 107:7
regrets 54:8
rehearsing 221:13
reinforce 110:3
reinforced 112:6
reiterate 113:9
relate 164:16
related 239:11
240:7
relation 72:10
185:4
relations 77:5,11
relative 43:16
239:13 240:10
release 125:17,20
relevance 177:20

relief 31:14,14
39:21,23 40:1
42:16 106:22,22
175:17 195:2
208:11,13,19
209:2,5
reliefs 40:3
remainder 85:2
169:7
remained 85:21
remaining 201:10
remains 120:7
222:22
remarked 73:14
remarks 108:15
112:11 127:10
remember 43:6
68:21 212:5,14
229:15,16
remembered
171:8
remind 5:17,22
26:11 62:17 97:19
132:4 147:22
150:14 180:13
212:5
reminded 30:3
194:8
reminder 49:14
89:20 111:7 112:7
112:10 146:10
reminds 114:20
remiss 194:15
removing 95:12
rendition 90:2
renfro 171:22
203:10
renown 141:10
repatriation
171:15 203:8
repeat 146:11
151:17 231:4
236:6

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com
202-857-3376

repeating 95:16
report 166:11
reported 1:13
reporter 4:2 5:14
5:20 23:21,22
48:5,17 64:9,13
64:16 72:22 90:22
91:3 116:1,3,3,7,9
122:14,15,19
125:1,2 129:10,11
134:10 135:8,10
136:2 138:7,9,11
139:17 140:12,14
140:16 157:14,18
159:22 165:16,17
166:15,18 183:18
199:8,12,13
207:20 231:19,22
238:5
represent 42:22
89:6 91:8 92:10
118:18 176:6
198:14 225:15
representation
59:6 196:17
225:22
representations
21:8
representative
3:18,19 9:2 16:10
120:3 172:8 205:3
representatives
13:6,8 19:20
66:22 86:11 90:19
125:14 171:20
179:14 203:5
204:20 205:3
210:9,10
represented 59:11
59:13 77:18 96:11
120:3 225:12,14
representing 57:7
96:13,17 204:6
206:14

Meeting

[represents - roosevelt]
represents 44:1
89:17 93:6 145:2
179:2
request 27:19
235:17
requests 195:7
require 223:8
required 93:7
96:14 103:19
121:2,22 129:20
130:10
requires 11:22
201:17
rescue 141:6
research 62:8
172:6 178:9 203:9
reserve 11:12 51:5
reside 89:15
resilience 170:18
170:22
resonated 155:9
resources 102:20
respect 31:4 67:5
81:2 88:20 97:4,5
98:14 118:13
130:4 160:7 226:1
226:22 227:1
228:5
respectfully
101:21,22
respectively 8:22
respond 4:11
119:6 135:11
168:11 200:22
233:6 237:3 238:1
response 104:17
178:7 196:9,11
205:16
responsibilities
10:16
rest 107:12 124:14
198:18 213:22
result 30:15

April 19, 2022

Page 40

results 47:13
48:21 83:6 137:11
138:15 166:9,22
199:4,18 232:5,20
resume 33:6
return 38:16 51:3
79:10 85:3 140:21
170:10
returned 15:9
140:19
reverse 6:7,18
12:15 14:4 18:20
18:21 19:2,13,14
19:16,17,19,20
24:13,16 28:5,6
28:11,19,21 34:4
38:21 41:16 47:8
49:2,6,7,8,9 55:4
57:2,2,6,14 67:11
85:5 89:9 91:15
91:16,20,21 92:4
92:5,16,20 93:8
93:10,15,19 99:3
108:10,10 113:10
114:2 116:16
138:19,20,20,21
138:21,21,22,22
139:2,2,2,3
143:12 144:2,14
144:19,22 155:8
156:15 166:3
167:7,8,9,9,10,11
167:18,19 170:12
174:3,6,6,7,11
177:6 185:14
190:8 191:19
192:7,11 198:21
200:1,2,3,4,5,7
201:19 204:4,5,7
204:9,11 205:4
236:10,11
reverses 19:8,22
38:9 91:10 92:14
93:4 145:7 146:21

173:22 204:5
review 6:6,17 9:19
28:11 86:2 109:4
128:1 171:21
211:9
reviewed 13:3
15:18 56:17 86:5
98:15 142:12
171:12 172:8
203:3
reviewer 57:18
reviewers 13:8,10
15:19 52:4 57:12
67:10 73:14 86:2
91:18,20 142:1,2
144:4 171:11
174:9,11
reviewing 52:5
reviews 157:12
reviled 85:22
revised 197:7
revolution 85:18
rewarding 226:10
reynolds 172:5
197:14 203:8
ribbon 213:7
222:9
ribbons 204:13
right 11:18 14:11
14:11 22:19 23:4
31:22 32:6 34:2
38:4 39:2,2 40:1
40:15 63:19 67:2
70:7 77:8 91:6
92:5,12 102:12
103:2 104:11,11
105:16 107:3
111:17 124:21
130:17 132:21
133:2,4 144:12
151:15 162:2
197:2 215:9
217:12 218:5,7
229:17

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com
202-857-3376

rights 12:21 51:13
51:14 55:10 57:1
57:5,9,10,17,22
59:17 61:9 62:5
62:10 63:21 70:13
75:7 78:5,9 85:13
88:10 90:11,11
92:11 93:13
ring 128:12
rival 73:13
river 148:19
150:20 153:1
158:7,21 164:11
164:11,12
robert 206:18
robin 2:10 5:2
27:3,16,18 34:19
37:12 68:7,8
100:12,16,17
107:22 154:4,5,7
184:10,10,12
185:13 200:18
218:13,15 233:3
robinson 198:11
robin’s 159:6
roger 2:19 7:20
172:22 178:18
179:7,21 180:1,6
205:17 208:3
210:4,16,20
role 52:1 171:2,3
roles 111:13 171:1
roman 151:4
rookie 209:20
roosevelt 3:15,15
3:16,17 6:9 8:20
8:21,21 13:16
51:6,9,12,17
52:11,11,12,13,15
53:3,5 54:5,7,9,10
54:15,17 56:5,18
56:21 57:3,6,15
58:5 59:7,7 61:1
61:20,21,22 63:10

Meeting

[roosevelt - secretary]
63:14 65:2,15
66:1,7,14,18,19
67:5 68:5,11,21
69:6,12,18 70:17
71:7,13 73:6,9,19
73:20,22 74:1,2,3
74:4,6,6,7,20 75:3
75:4,10,12,20
76:9 77:8,17
78:21 81:7,8,9,11
81:15,16 83:22
84:1,10,18 95:19
125:22
roosevelt's 61:17
66:2 73:13
roosevelts 65:18
73:9,17,18 83:21
root 179:17
rooted 88:19
rosella 202:14
rosy 128:12
round 35:6
ruin 80:21
rule 40:7,12
run 62:1 212:7
218:10
runs 164:14
russ 208:3
russell 7:22
russia 121:3
179:13
s
s 2:1 4:1 177:5
178:3 186:7
sad 100:1
safer 235:8
saint 156:9
sake 161:13,15
sale 30:15
salisbury 73:10
74:13
salmon 2:10 5:2,3
27:3,4 68:7,8,8
100:17,17 154:5,6

April 19, 2022

Page 41
154:7 184:10,11
184:12 200:16
218:14,15 233:3,3
salute 192:18
sam 2:7 33:19
34:11 37:2 63:7
64:15,22 65:3
73:3 116:2,11,13
117:19,22 153:13
154:4 181:5,21
182:1 212:15,17
sameness 222:1
224:10
samuel 4:18
satisfactory 22:21
223:16
satisfied 218:20
satisfy 30:13
123:2 130:11
satisfying 220:1
saul 133:2,4,4
save 146:16 155:1
saved 15:6
saw 32:5 68:20
72:6 108:2 117:13
118:2 136:10
156:8 177:20
187:22 188:1
194:6,6 196:10
219:21 220:15
227:8
saying 50:4 75:20
94:20 95:17 97:6
103:14 115:9
122:4 130:19
150:2 168:10
206:19 218:1
237:2
says 64:1 117:12
186:12
scale 22:22 44:19
103:15 161:21
162:18

scales 55:8 57:7
59:13 78:4 92:8
95:15,17
scarinci 2:11 5:4
5:11 23:19,22
24:2 29:3 33:16
38:17,20 41:4
65:9,10 66:10
98:22 99:2 124:9
125:3 132:19
151:14,19,20
182:20 183:20,20
215:4 217:17,18
scene 214:16
scholar 13:12
77:12
scholars 15:17
86:4
school 13:15 15:5
15:7 17:19 50:16
52:20 77:6 85:18
90:7 121:3 175:14
229:15
science 12:21
141:19 226:7
score 47:8,10 49:1
49:2 82:11,19
138:19 166:3,6
167:4 198:21
199:22,22 200:1
231:12 232:8,20
scored 200:7
scores 47:12,13,16
47:17,22 83:5,6
137:10,11 166:7,8
166:13 196:5
199:2,3 231:13,14
231:17
scoresheet 83:3
137:8 199:1
scoresheets 83:15
scoring 48:21 49:1
49:6,9 138:16,18
139:1,4 166:11,22

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com
202-857-3376

167:3,6,12 199:19
199:21 200:5,12
232:5,8,13,14
screen 11:18
105:13 175:10
223:11
script 220:14
sculpt 39:16,19
40:4 58:21 102:19
183:15 209:11
220:6 223:16
sculptable 147:16
sculpted 59:1
208:10 216:13
sculpting 175:15
218:19 221:9
228:9
sculptor 103:1
130:9 147:9
sculptors 132:12
147:10
sculptor’s 208:16
sculpts 67:12
sculpture 23:12
40:2 121:4 202:16
seated 57:15
second 10:9 80:5,6
80:7 117:4 140:9
167:21 168:1
185:6 197:6
200:19 215:11
218:22 233:2,3
235:19,21 236:1
237:19,20
secondary 102:20
secondly 192:22
seconds 10:6
secretary 6:5 9:20
11:22 12:6 17:4
66:14 110:15
136:16,22 201:17
234:1 235:5,14
236:12

Meeting

[see - sides]
see 22:5,11,12,19
28:13,14 30:15
31:3 33:16 34:7
35:1,5,20 36:3
39:5 40:13,14,15
40:15,19 43:7,19
44:7 45:1,19 46:5
46:8 50:23 61:17
69:17 70:8 71:19
74:19 75:8 81:6,7
84:13 99:4 103:5
103:19 105:12,12
109:5,6,7 113:17
113:22 116:18
128:17 130:18,22
133:14 142:22
144:2 151:3
167:14 168:22
169:12 173:21
178:9 185:15
188:10 189:9,10
193:8 195:6,17,22
196:2,18 197:12
197:19 203:20
206:16 209:16
211:5 212:20
213:2 214:15
221:5 223:9 226:8
229:14 230:17
231:1,1 233:14,18
235:15,19
seeing 43:13 49:23
71:22 97:16
100:20 108:1
142:13 147:20
183:6 200:10
201:4 202:21
231:11 236:3
seen 19:18 40:22
92:16 95:15 96:6
96:16,22 97:8
99:21 105:1,8
122:22 126:20
192:9 193:4 218:9

April 19, 2022

Page 42
sees 109:7 164:6
segregated 15:15
segregation 14:21
85:11,18
select 80:4
selected 12:5
53:22 89:13 95:11
110:12 175:6
183:6
selection 30:2 59:3
95:19 176:1,15
selections 89:8
97:6
selfishly 58:19
124:1
sell 30:12 66:1
semi 208:8
seminar 66:1
senate 204:20
205:6
send 82:10 83:16
84:13 138:6
166:13 231:18
senior 3:3,8 7:3,6
59:19 171:14
203:7
sense 43:16 45:21
45:22 48:1 160:16
160:18 189:11
195:11 198:12
216:9 222:1,14
226:13,16 228:19
sensitively 193:18
sentiment 179:2
179:15 219:21
separate 70:7
179:12 192:3
236:13
separates 234:7
separating 182:12
separation 235:15
sequel 133:1
series 25:18 90:15
132:22 133:3,5

204:17
served 51:12,19
141:6
service 88:19
services 43:21
serving 141:18
168:20
session 52:17
140:20 146:15
set 30:12 35:16
95:20 100:7 152:9
159:15 184:5
sets 153:4 160:9
setting 226:8
seven 167:10
200:2
seventh 90:4
shaded 225:7
shading 146:22
147:4,13
shadow 67:8,17
shake 109:14
shape 15:11 88:15
97:7 158:8 161:22
162:1
shaped 88:22
share 11:18 20:14
51:1 56:20 58:12
73:8 74:13 78:18
79:8 94:6 134:5
145:16 147:12
163:11 174:16
203:12 204:15
205:1 207:15
shared 21:12
34:15 78:15 178:7
sharing 21:9
50:11 74:17 84:1
140:1 168:15
201:6 207:13
sheet 47:10 166:6
231:12
sheets 48:22 82:11
138:16 167:1

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com
202-857-3376

199:19 232:5,21
shepherding
71:21
she’s 184:2 192:13
192:14
shine 195:1
shining 193:3
shoe 204:13
shoes 204:13
213:7 216:22
222:7,11
shonda 1:13 239:2
239:19
shook 74:11
short 40:4 115:16
119:16 131:21
211:17
shortening 208:17
shorter 166:10
should've 110:7
shoulders 100:5
shouldn’t 193:15
shoutout 150:6
show 81:1 133:17
153:8 155:11
169:21 190:2
showcase 142:19
showed 17:11
shown 31:9 32:9
46:6 164:21
shows 15:10 32:16
69:11,12 98:18
182:13
shrink 163:1
shut 107:12
sibling 58:10
side 28:14 34:20
42:21,22 59:13
66:15 149:12
153:22 162:3
164:7,15 175:14
229:18
sides 37:13 45:4

Meeting

[sign - spelled]
sign 43:9 126:18
152:1 155:22
156:21 157:6
162:20 167:18
signature 19:3
171:2 239:18
240:14
signed 139:20
significance 36:11
signify 10:9 50:4
168:9 237:2
signing 10:9
silenced 85:22
silver 30:17 35:5
silvers 107:8
similarities 35:2
similarly 207:9
208:5
simplicity 89:11
112:18 119:15
223:1
simplistic 119:12
simply 61:15
67:17 95:4 172:14
192:12
single 22:8 53:18
54:2 144:7 175:2
181:8 182:21
221:13
singular 32:18
sinking 194:20
sir 53:1 94:17 99:1
123:18 193:10
sister 54:8 58:9
71:11 87:13
202:12
sisters 87:17
site 35:1 76:1
sitting 157:3
six 186:11 232:10
236:22
size 67:19 160:12
162:21 163:1
167:18 183:11

April 19, 2022

Page 43
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skibine 202:13
206:18
skill 78:16 221:10
skills 176:14
239:10 240:6
skin 106:2
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sky 18:8,9 19:17
21:19 23:9 144:15
skyline 20:3 38:10
skyward 18:22
slam 106:3
slanting 46:15
slide 169:19
slightly 69:11
91:20 221:3
small 32:14 39:4,8
70:3 188:14 216:8
smaller 21:10,10
156:17,22 157:5,6
158:20
smarter 120:14
smiles 18:21
smithsonian 13:4
13:7 15:18 16:1
52:5 57:18 86:4,9
91:18 142:4 144:3
174:9
smithsonian's
12:7 52:7
smithsonian’s
171:13
snow 194:9
soared 67:7
soars 18:22
social 85:19 93:12
society 55:12
softly 213:18
solution 230:5,9
somebody 52:19
81:22 153:9
194:14

someone's 44:7
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somewhat 43:19
son 74:2
sonya 240:2,15
sooner 137:14,16
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sorry 4:9 21:18
32:11 42:13 46:10
46:17 53:3 72:3
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204:5 208:1
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sort 22:13 43:12
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154:8 160:9
189:10 190:3
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225:6,7 227:3
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sound 96:2 102:22
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sources 110:13
south 14:2
space 12:22 15:20
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23:6 32:12 99:3
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153:2,7 158:7,11
158:12,15 162:9
191:5,7 208:19
216:15 234:4,6
236:12
spaces 96:21
spanish 88:6
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202-857-3376

spare 64:12
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speak 15:14 17:3
33:10,14 70:18
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176:12 183:3
speaker 64:14
116:4 157:14,18
157:20 159:22
172:1 183:18
203:11
speaking 5:20
17:1 25:9 26:13
57:3 62:20 73:1
87:8 97:21 101:21
109:16 142:11
146:2 147:2 148:2
175:1 180:15
212:8,15 220:7
230:1 234:13
speaks 72:13
111:20 118:10
169:3
special 53:7 54:3
60:7 106:18 213:5
specialist 3:8
specializes 16:13
specific 89:10
134:15 183:5
specifically 56:22
57:21 194:12
specifics 153:6
specify 13:7
spectacular 67:9
100:20 117:15
123:10 202:3
spectrum 12:19
30:11 96:10
speechify 120:21
spelled 14:8,9
126:12,13,14
155:2,18

Meeting

[spells - strongest]
spells 108:12
131:20 133:19
spend 123:5
spent 76:1
spinning 23:11
44:20,23
split 33:2 128:13
spoke 60:16 97:5
114:4 196:18
205:17
spokesperson
16:12
sponsor 30:1,13
30:14
sponsoring 31:2
sponsors 29:17
30:4 31:5
spoon 133:9
sports 198:8
spotlight 190:11
192:14 193:2
196:22
spouse 58:22
67:11
spread 206:8
spruill 13:22
spunk 32:5
st 13:18
staff 7:10 11:10
39:17,18,18,18
46:22 53:6,8 55:3
79:15 195:22
237:14
stafford 2:15 6:12
6:13 7:12,13
11:11,16 16:19
18:14 24:22 51:4
51:7 56:10 60:13
60:18 61:12,21
85:7 87:6 91:4
125:5,13 140:21
141:3 143:2
170:10,14 172:20
178:4,5 179:21

April 19, 2022

Page 44
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stage 67:9 131:9
170:18 174:2
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stages 218:17
stakeholder 59:5
72:12 176:1
stakeholders
21:13 94:19 98:15
181:10 188:11
203:13 204:16
210:7
stamp 18:1 35:21
35:22 74:18 75:9
stamps 74:22 75:1
75:2 77:18
stand 110:17
129:21 138:5
195:3 238:3
standards 173:15
standing 19:17
46:4
standpoint 119:2
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stands 68:13
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119:13 164:8
191:21
star 109:18 124:16
stare 150:21,21
stars 70:6 174:1
184:17 203:17,19
start 9:15 18:20
57:1 86:21 91:10
138:1 140:11
203:15 219:17
221:2
started 69:15
86:20,21
starting 12:2
29:19 212:19

state 21:6 87:11
90:22 93:18
164:12,13
stated 28:20 73:2
88:7 134:13 191:3
192:2 225:4
statement 89:19
110:12,17 119:15
147:14 165:3
230:7
statements 5:21
states 1:5 2:14
12:18,19 14:6
31:1 33:1 52:21
59:8,10 65:19
70:5 90:16 96:7
103:17 110:3
122:4 132:18
161:18 201:22,22
203:1 213:8
222:10 227:8
234:5 236:14
stating 55:2
170:21
stationary 22:9
44:21
status 51:20
staunch 88:12
stay 28:22 66:16
95:8 143:13
stem 213:21
step 128:15 129:6
129:18 134:3
227:17
stepping 147:3
steve 105:17
stevenson 81:14
81:21
steward 45:17
120:18
stimulate 160:15
stimulating 221:1
stood 228:3

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202-857-3376

stop 104:13 117:4
175:4
stops 162:12
stories 84:16
141:6 174:1
184:18 203:21
story 30:16 40:4
43:22 67:4 68:18
69:1 74:13 78:19
92:3 117:1,2,8,16
119:16 121:2,6
150:18 152:7
181:10 191:9
storyboard 123:2
storybook 121:1
131:16
storytelling
121:18,19,19
strangely 53:13
strategy 105:20
stravinsky’s 171:2
202:4
streak 23:9
stream 38:13
street 18:1
strength 27:9
37:13,15 89:17
170:18 182:3
184:20 189:11
stress 96:1 125:19
stride 145:2
striking 192:9,12
226:14
stripes 41:7,9,13
41:20
strong 14:18
34:17 35:4 37:8
88:2 120:7 144:7
148:20 159:15
219:10,14 220:13
235:5
stronger 230:7,8
strongest 35:3
220:19

Meeting

[strongly - tallchief]
strongly 93:11
146:7 174:8 225:2
struck 32:4
structural 228:22
structurally
102:21
structure 102:18
228:15
struggled 29:15
struggling 31:19
student 15:7 78:1
109:13,18,18
114:21 229:12
students 74:13
77:10 90:9,12
studied 77:4
studies 77:4,10
studio 221:14
study 77:7,10
studying 70:10
196:8
stuff 40:2 99:12
124:2 193:21
208:5,20 226:7
stunning 98:14
112:17 116:17,17
119:11 172:18
stunt 20:1
style 27:8,9 61:15
208:13
styles 141:15
stylized 34:21
45:19
subject 14:21
42:20 69:22 81:10
177:18,19 179:20
216:22
subjects 207:9
submit 47:16
231:16
submitted 30:20
89:5
subordinate 73:13
105:18

April 19, 2022

Page 45
subscribing 39:16
success 189:11
successful 165:1
183:14 186:1,5
230:8
successor 54:9
sudden 162:11
sue 188:5
suffrage 12:20
suffragist 85:10
88:9,16 91:14
115:20
sugar 171:3
suggest 24:7 25:7
29:6 41:11 82:9
95:11 134:1 136:9
137:6 151:22
suggesting 39:16
137:17 177:21
suggestions 56:1
suitable 113:9
suits 19:9
sullivan 2:16 7:14
7:15
sunken 194:18
superb 68:2 181:8
superstar 202:4
supervisor 174:19
supplied 143:3
support 11:10
35:3 76:13 99:9
113:3 127:21
152:8 189:7 190:7
190:19 191:18
192:5,16 194:2
197:19 216:2
217:14 223:21
231:6
supported 174:10
179:19
supporter 113:22
148:20
supporting 183:16

supposed 74:16
118:7 175:4
206:16
suppression 141:8
surcharges 30:14
sure 24:8,17 33:17
36:14 44:22 49:20
50:23 58:9 66:22
87:7 95:2 108:19
119:3 132:10
136:15 137:22
143:21 151:22
168:22 175:5,8
179:9 183:5 195:9
197:15 209:3,7,9
210:3 212:8
216:13 236:7
surprised 71:11
surrounded
221:14
survives 161:20
sweeps 162:3
sweet 64:5
swift 171:15 203:7
switching 206:15
swoosh 38:12
sworn 239:5
syllable 148:5
symbol 59:8 92:15
93:18 163:2
191:21 226:20
symbolic 23:13
96:13 155:19
226:19
symbolically
21:20 28:13 42:21
59:12 95:16
symbolism 59:9
68:14 144:9
154:10 193:3
226:9,15,15,21
symbolize 184:17
symbolizes 19:5

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com
202-857-3376

symbolizing 57:8
symmetrical 95:5
217:12
symmetry 183:10
191:7 196:21
223:1 225:5,5
synch 110:4
synchronous
46:16 229:7,8
syndicated 51:22
system 194:2
t
table 123:4
tabletop 123:4
take 24:18 31:4
47:15 79:6 81:5
82:21 83:8 129:6
129:18 137:17
166:12 178:4
200:17,18 204:21
228:15 230:3
231:15 235:6
taken 45:16 84:6
239:3,12 240:9
takes 98:17
talent 83:19
165:12
talented 168:17
201:8
talk 43:22 74:10
116:15 185:4
talked 124:18
214:5 226:17
talking 5:19 31:22
60:11 96:4 109:11
189:1 216:17
226:16
tallchief 3:20 6:16
9:7 126:1 170:12
170:15,20 171:5
171:12 173:12,18
179:3,6,10,16
190:2 202:1,5,5,9
202:13 203:5,18

Meeting

[tallchief - thank]
204:3,4,7,10,12
204:14 206:18
208:6 213:2,10
214:7,15 223:13
225:12 227:2
229:22 230:1,3,5
tallchief’s 170:22
172:9 173:14
174:2 198:3
202:12 203:22
213:21 214:9
219:13 222:6
225:17
tally 47:13,16 83:5
137:10 166:8,13
199:3 231:14,17
tandem 58:22
taro 144:18
taste 66:6
taught 90:9,12
teach 65:19 73:9
123:16 234:11
teacher 85:10 88:9
93:2,17 141:5
172:4 175:18
193:16
teaching 78:6
141:17 186:16
teachings 141:21
team 11:17 72:19
118:4 143:4
192:20 194:3
teary 186:21
technical 22:2
24:9,12 25:13
60:21 61:4 62:16
97:14 146:13
147:20 176:22
177:4,13 180:11
209:15
technically 122:4
197:19
techniques 106:16

April 19, 2022

Page 46
teeny 163:2
teeth 65:13,14
106:2
tejanos 85:20
telephonic 1:6
television 132:21
tell 30:16 65:16
68:18,22 98:12
100:10 102:13
116:22 117:1
121:2 124:20
153:10 190:1
216:3
tells 152:6 181:10
telltale 43:9
temple 39:22
ten 31:18 47:19,20
83:6 121:10
137:12 166:10,12
199:4,6 231:15,16
tenacious 15:2
tend 53:11 176:12
181:9 182:1 183:2
tends 147:6 198:6
term 115:2 120:4
177:5,13 178:1
210:22 211:13
terms 31:15 80:22
103:7 111:11
118:9 128:3
196:20 211:1
228:14
terribly 44:21
tertiary 102:20
test 35:11 123:4
testament 72:18
testifying 239:5
texas 87:11 90:4,7
90:9,13 93:18
text 46:11,13
47:12 80:18 83:4
93:5 96:15 103:3
130:10 137:9
162:4,5 166:7

199:2 231:13
textural 188:13
194:14
texture 194:14
textured 95:10,12
194:17 195:8
208:7 209:5
tey 86:6
thank 6:15 7:1,7,8
9:11 10:7 11:16
18:11,13,14 20:6
20:11 21:5,22
22:1,7 24:20,22
25:3,4,6,11 26:9
27:4,14,15 28:6,7
28:9 29:1,2,8,10
33:3,4,17,18,20
34:10,11,13,14
35:8,9,16,17
36:21,22 37:1,21
37:22 38:14,15
40:4 41:1,2 43:4,5
44:13 45:10,11,12
45:23 46:1,3,8,18
46:19 48:2,19
49:11,17,18,19
50:9,16,19,20
51:7 52:15,16
53:2 54:17 56:2,9
56:10,11 58:3,5
60:10,13,18,19
61:5 63:8 64:8,16
64:17 65:7,8 66:7
66:10,11,13 68:5
68:6,9 69:2,5,6
70:19 71:3 72:1,2
72:5,19,21 73:19
75:13,16,18 76:13
76:14,19,20,22
78:10,11 79:8
81:2,4 82:6,15,16
82:17,22 83:22
84:10,19,21 85:1
85:7 87:3 90:18

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com
202-857-3376

91:3,4,5 94:3,3,21
97:10,11 98:19,20
99:15 100:9,22
101:1,3,4,6,18
104:15 106:4
107:14 108:9,15
108:17,18,22
111:3 112:9,12,15
113:11,12 114:7,9
114:11 115:10,21
115:22 116:7,8,10
116:12 117:17,18
119:9 120:7,9,12
122:8,19 123:11
123:12 124:5
125:8,8 126:2,7,8
127:10,11,15
128:20,22 129:9
129:13 132:2
133:21 134:22
135:2,6,10,15
136:1,5,7,8,12
137:3,4 138:13,17
139:7,21 140:1,13
140:18 141:3
142:21 143:2
145:13,14 146:2,7
146:9,9 147:17
148:21,22 149:2
150:9,10 151:11
151:12 152:12,15
153:10,12,14
154:2,3,6,17,18
154:20,21 157:10
157:13 158:3
159:11,12,14,19
159:20 160:3
163:4,5 165:9,10
165:18,20 167:13
167:16 168:14,15
169:6 170:4,7,8
170:14 172:13,20
174:13 176:17,18
178:5 179:21

Meeting

[thank - thoughts]
181:6,19,20,22
182:16,18 184:7,8
184:11 185:6,7,10
185:10 186:17,19
186:20,22 187:2,7
189:14,16,19
190:20,21 191:9
191:10,12,13
192:16,17,19
193:12 195:12,13
197:22 198:16,17
199:16 200:8
201:4,6,14,14
205:13 207:2,11
207:12,13 208:2
209:11,13 211:3,4
212:16 213:11,13
214:22 215:2
217:19,22 218:9
218:11,12,14
219:5,6,8 220:19
220:20,22 222:16
222:17,19 223:22
224:1,19,21 226:2
226:3 230:11
231:7,8 232:2,16
233:20 234:12,14
234:16,18,19
235:16
thanks 20:7 21:2
53:7 62:13 82:5
94:12 186:18
that’s 151:8 153:9
155:20 162:7,17
163:3 178:22
179:17 185:12
187:11 188:5
195:10 205:20
206:16 211:11
212:19 213:9
214:9,17,21 215:5
215:11,12,20
216:18 217:10,10
218:8,11 221:18

April 19, 2022

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215:12
themed 207:9
theodore 66:14
there’s 150:17,22
159:1 177:19
198:7 212:1 220:3
220:3,3 224:14
230:8 235:12,17
they’re 153:18
220:3 222:2 229:3
229:4,5
thing 22:17 40:10
40:22 46:11 67:3
72:10 74:15 78:7
84:11 97:8 110:10
129:17 130:16,20
131:6 133:16,17
152:20 162:19
164:19 169:7
178:22 179:9
208:20 217:14
222:7
things 22:18 70:2
71:15 77:11,19
82:11 96:6 130:13
131:4 153:16
176:5 187:9 190:3
209:1 211:11
think 20:22 21:1
21:12 22:8 28:13
29:12 30:2 31:8
34:3,8,16 36:7,12
36:17 37:19 40:23
41:17,22 42:10
44:13,15,19,20
45:5,9,19,22
46:16 47:3 54:2
54:19 55:1,22
59:2,21 60:15
62:3,7 64:5 65:3

65:15 69:7,9,22
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76:7,9,10 77:20
78:21 81:17,21
88:2 95:21 97:3,7
99:4,10,14 102:7
103:3 104:5,6
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109:10 110:11,16
111:1 112:1,2,6
112:17,18,20,22
113:4,8,9 115:2,5
115:16,20 116:14
119:2,6,13,21
120:14,14,16
121:9,15,17,18
123:9,9 124:11
125:5 126:22
127:9 128:4 129:1
129:2 130:1 131:1
131:13,20 132:1,7
132:14 135:20
137:5,19 146:3,4
146:5 147:6,8,15
149:7,16,17,18,19
150:3,6,15,22
151:3,6,20 152:2
152:8 153:18
154:13 155:3,6,20
156:13,15,17
157:4,9 158:6,8
158:10,13,16
159:1,7,9,15,15
160:9,13 162:14
162:18 163:17
169:18,19 172:16
173:5 175:8,12,13
175:21,22 176:2,9
176:14 177:19
178:22 180:1,3,5
181:17 182:15
183:7,12 184:22
185:3,12,16 186:9

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com
202-857-3376

187:11,14,16
188:15,20 190:8
190:10,13,15
191:5,16,20 192:4
192:9 194:13
195:7 196:4,11
197:7,11,18
199:10 205:22
206:8,22 207:3,17
209:19 211:11
212:22 213:9,16
214:8,13,21
218:20 220:4,5,8
221:18 223:3
225:8,11,16 226:2
227:3,6,9 230:6
230:12 233:14
235:9,12
thinking 27:13
28:3 115:13 188:6
thinks 42:4
third 21:15 55:19
187:9
thompson 2:22
8:6,7
thonba 173:15
186:10
thoroughly 89:4
thought 38:10
58:8 67:15 110:8
114:6 150:7
154:16 191:7
205:21,22 214:3
216:15 221:20
222:5,6,11 224:6
231:5
thoughtful 64:7
156:5 163:6 187:3
thoughtfulness
57:19 65:3
thoughts 73:8
88:10 112:14
135:5 165:22
207:14

Meeting

[three - tucker]
three 21:16 31:9
31:11 32:13 53:4
65:19 87:15 96:11
96:19 101:9
103:15 105:11
107:8,10 121:12
169:17 175:16
200:4
thrilled 43:14 76:3
172:14
throw 80:17
thumb 40:7,12
thumbs 18:22
tia 88:6,6 89:22
tied 111:9
time 1:11 5:20
14:22 22:22 23:11
25:16,22 26:15,16
29:12,15,16 33:10
42:8 44:7 48:11
50:11 51:15 56:13
58:6 62:20,21
68:22 69:13 70:16
71:9 72:16,17
73:8 76:2 79:13
84:1,5 85:12
87:11 88:2 97:22
98:1 108:16
115:16 118:15
120:17,20 123:6
125:15 131:6
135:4 137:3,17
138:2 140:1
143:20 146:15
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