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Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 1 1 DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY 2 UNITED STATES MINT 3 4 5 6 CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE 7 CCAC PUBLIC MEETING 8 9 10 11 DATE: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 12 TIME: 9:37 a.m. 13 LOCATION: 801 9th Street NW 14 Washington DC 20220 15 REPORTED BY: Nate Riveness, Notary Public 16 JOB No.: 3275301 17 18 19 20 21 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 2 1 2 ATTENDEES CCAC Members 3 Tom Uram, Chairman 4 Sam Gill 5 Robert Hoge 6 Erik Jansen (phone) 7 Dean Kotlowski 8 Mary Lannin 9 Mike Moran 10 Robin Salmon 11 Donald Scarinci 12 Jeanne Stevens-Sollman 13 Greg Weinman, Attorney 14 Mint Representatives 15 Jovita Carranza, US Treasurer 16 David Ryder, Director 17 Ann Bailey 18 Betty Birdsong 19 Pam Borer 20 Vanessa Franck 21 Ron Harrigal 22 Joe Menna, Chief Engraver www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 3 1 April Stafford 2 Megan Sullivan 3 Roger Vasquez 4 Subject Matter Experts 5 Rhonda Barnes, Georgia (phone) 6 Julia Brinjac, Pennsylvania (phone) 7 Sara Cureton, New Jersey (phone) 8 Lea Filson, General Society of Mayflower 9 Descendants (phone) 10 Dava Sobel, Delaware (phone) 11 Courtney Stewart, Delaware (phone) 12 Herman Viola, Smithsonian 13 Bettina Washington, Wampanoag Tribe of Gay Head- 14 Aquinnah (phone) 15 Other 16 Louis Golino, Press 17 Brandon Hall, Press 18 Serena Rumet (ph), Press 19 Greg Weinman, Attorney 20 21 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 CHAIRMAN URAM: Good morning, everyone. I'd 3 like to call this meeting of the Citizens Advisory 4 Committee for Tuesday, April 16th to order. 5 have the pleasure today of the first order of business 6 is the formal swearing in of our newest member, Dr. 7 Dean Kotlowski. 8 Secretary Mnuchin appointed Dr. Kotlowski for a four- 9 year term of the CCAC, as a member specially qualified And we And on December 7, 2018, the 10 to serve the advisory committee by virtue of 11 education, training, work experience, and American 12 history. 13 director of the United States Mint, Director David 14 Ryder. Dr. Kotlowski will be sworn in by the 15 MR. RYDER: 16 DR. KOTLOWSKI: 17 MR. RYDER: First of all, congratulations. Thank you. So, Dr. Kotlowski, please raise 18 your right hand and repeat after me. 19 of office. 20 and defend the Constitution of the United States 21 against all enemies, foreign and domestic. 22 This is the oath I do solemnly swear that I will support DR. KOTLOWSKI: I do solemnly swear that I www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 5 1 will support and defend the Constitution of the United 2 States against all enemies, both foreign and domestic. 3 4 MR. RYDER: allegiance to the same. 5 6 That I will bear true faith and DR. KOTLOWSKI: That I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same. 7 MR. RYDER: That I take this obligation 8 freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of 9 invasion. 10 DR. KOTLOWSKI: That I take this obligation 11 freely without any evasion -- without any mental 12 reservation or purpose of invasion. MR. RYDER: 13 14 That I will faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I'm about to enter. DR. KOTLOWSKI: 15 That I will faithfully 16 discharge the duties of the office that I'm about to 17 enter. 18 MR. RYDER: So, congratulations and welcome 19 to the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee. 20 of the United States Mint and myself personally, 21 congratulations. 22 (Applause.) DR. KOTLOWSKI: Thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 On behalf Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 6 1 2 CHAIRMAN URAM: Dr. Dean, we invite you to make a few comments, if you'd like, at this point. 3 MR. RYDER: I should also point out that we 4 have Jovita Carranza with us today. 5 haven't been paying attention to the news -- Jovita 6 doesn't know I'm going to say this -- 7 MS. CARVANZA: 8 MR. RYDER: 9 Those of you that No, I don't, but too late. -- but Jovita was just appointed by the President of the United States to be the new 10 director of the Small Business Administration. 11 served there as deputy director some time ago, and so 12 like me, she's doing a second stint at the same 13 organization, but I think the president made a very 14 good nomination on Jovita, and she's going to be 15 serving in the president's cabinet as soon as she's 16 confirmed. She So, congratulations, Jovita. (Applause.) 17 MS. CARRANZA: 18 CHAIRMAN URAM: Dr. Dean? 19 DR. KOTLOWSKI: Well, usually when I have a Thank you. 20 podium like this, I have prepared remarks and I speak 21 for either 50 or 75 minutes, but I can speak for 50 or 22 75 seconds here to thank Director Ryder. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 It's a Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 7 1 tremendous pleasure and tremendous honor to join the 2 Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee as the 3 representative who is a specialist in American 4 History. 5 collector when I was very, very young -- well, when I 6 was a teenager, so I have that background, and I hope 7 to be able to bring that knowledge, those memories, 8 some of my general understanding of United States 9 history to this meeting and all of its endeavors. I know something about coins. I was a coin 10 thank you again and looking forward to working very 11 closely with you over the next four years. 12 so much. 13 And Thank you (Applause.) CHAIRMAN URAM: Before we begin, I'd like to 14 introduce the members of the committee, and please 15 respond "present" when I call your name. 16 Kotlowski, whom you just met. 17 DR. KOTLOWSKI: Present. 18 CHAIRMAN URAM: Sam Gill? 19 MR. GILL: 20 CHAIRMAN URAM: 21 MR. HOGE: 22 CHAIRMAN URAM: Mary Lannin? Present. Robert Hoge? Present. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Dr. Dean Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 8 1 MS. LANNIN: 2 CHAIRMAN URAM: 3 MR. MORAN: 4 CHAIRMAN URAM: 5 MS. SALMON: 6 CHAIRMAN URAM: 7 MR. SCARINCI: 8 CHAIRMAN URAM: 9 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 10 Present. Michael Moran? Present. Robin Salmon? Present. Donald Scarinci? Present. CHAIRMAN URAM: Jeanne Stevens-Sollman? Present. Dennis Tucker, are you on the 11 phone? I'm Tom Uram, the chairman, and I just mention 12 that Erik Jansen cannot attend today's meeting. 13 MR. JANSEN: 14 CHAIRMAN URAM: 15 MR. JANSEN: 16 CHAIRMAN URAM: I'm here. Oh, you are, okay. Present. All right. So, that's super, 17 and I know you'll stay on as long as you possibly can. 18 We're glad to have you with us. 19 MR. JANSEN: 20 CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. Today the Citizens Coinage 21 Advisory Committee will consider the following items 22 during the two-day session. Today's agenda: www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 A Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 9 1 discussion of letters to the secretary and the minutes 2 from our November 14, 2018 meeting; a review of 3 candidate designs for the Mayflower 400th Gold Coin 4 and Silver Medal Program; a review of candidate 5 designs for the 2019 American Innovation $1 Coin 6 Program. 7 discussion of the $1 innovation program and will 8 reconvene tomorrow morning at 10 a.m., when the CCAC 9 will review the candidate designs for the 2021 to 2025 10 This meeting will recess following the American eagle platinum proof coin series. 11 Before we begin today's proceedings, are 12 there members of the press in attendance or on the 13 phone? If you could announce yourselves. 14 MR. GOLINO: 15 CHAIRMAN URAM: 16 MR. HALL: 17 Any press? Louis Golino, Coin Update. Thank you, Lou. Brandon Hall, also with Coin Update. 18 CHAIRMAN URAM: 19 Okay. 20 acknowledge -- pardon me? Thank you. Any others? Finally, for the record, I'd also like to 21 MS. WILMET: Serena Rumet (ph). 22 CHAIRMAN URAM: Rumet, thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I'd also Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 10 1 like to acknowledge the following mint staff and those 2 participating in our public meeting today. 3 all, April Stafford, Chief Office of Design 4 Management, April? 5 office, Vanessa Franck, Vanessa? 6 down there, okay. 7 Pam Borer? 8 engraver of the United States Mint, chief engraver Joe 9 Menna? And program managers from the Megan Sullivan? She'll be here? Joe? First of (Applause.) There are you are Thank you, Megan. Roger Vasquez? Our 14th Ron Harrigal, manager, 10 design engraving. 11 liaison for the CCAC, legislative? 12 our counsel for the CCAC, Greg Weinman? 13 Greg. 14 Jovita Carranza, Treasurer of the United States. 15 Thank you for being here with us. 16 MS. CARRANZA: 17 18 Ronald? Betty Birdsong, acting Thank you. And Thank you, And, of course, again, a special welcome to appreciate it. Thank you very much. I (Applause.) CHAIRMAN URAM: Let's begin with the minutes. 19 Are there any issues that need to be addressed at this 20 time before we begin? 21 is to review and approve the minutes and secretary's 22 letters from our last public meeting. Okay. First item on the agenda Thank you, Don. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 11 1 Okay, thank you for submitting those. 2 comments on the documents? 3 motion to approve? Are there any Hearing none, is there a 4 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 5 CHAIRMAN URAM: I move. Jeanne. Second, Mary. All 6 of those in favor say aye? 7 -- we'll now turn to April, for the Design and 8 Management, to present the portfolio for the Mayflower 9 400th anniversary gold and silver medal program. 10 11 Thank you. Are there any April? MS. STAFFORD: Thank you so much. 2020 will 12 mark the 400th anniversary of the Mayflower voyage. 13 To recognize this anniversary, the secretary of the 14 Treasury has authorized the Mint to produce a 1/4- 15 ounce 24-karat gold coin, and a 1-ounce silver medal. 16 To develop the design portfolio, the Mint worked with 17 a panel of subject matter experts who helped identify 18 the concepts, as well as the impact that the Mayflower 19 voyage had on the pilgrims, the Wampanoag Indians, and 20 the history of our country. 21 representatives from the Wampanoag Indian tribe, the 22 Smithsonian Museum, the National Museum of the The panel consisted of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 12 1 American Indians, the General Society of Mayflower 2 Descendants, Plimoth Plantation, which is a living 3 history museum, and Plymouth 400, the organization 4 overseeing the 400th anniversary commemoration. 5 Mint intends to sell the gold coin and silver medal 6 individually and paired with a coin to be produced by 7 the British Royal Mint. 8 Royal Mint and the United States Mint Coins and Medals 9 will more fully tell the story of the Mayflower voyage 10 The The pairing of the British from the beginning. Carrying a group of people seeking a new way 11 12 of life and religious freedom, the Mayflower set sail 13 from England to arrive in a new world in late 1620, 14 landing in Plymouth, Massachusetts, or Patuxet, as the 15 Wampanoag people call the area. 16 cultures intersected as the pilgrims endeavored to 17 realize the life and vision, the complex history, a 18 story that requires a respectful and appropriate 19 telling. 20 These two distinct I will share with the committee that we have 21 grouped these designs for your consideration by 22 concept, because while we will be looking at both gold www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 13 1 coin obverse and reverse, and silver medal obverse and 2 reverse, any of the designs that you consider today 3 can be used for any of the four sides that you'll be 4 making recommendations for, and the formatting of 5 which can be discussed, including the required 6 inscriptions of the gold coin. 7 Again, I'll just share that we worked with -- 8 we're very fortunate to work with an incredible team 9 of subject matter experts, as I mentioned before, many 10 of which will have committed to joining us on the 11 phone here today. 12 Viola, the curator emeritus with the Smithsonian 13 Institution, and thank you, Herman, for being here. 14 I'll ask if there is anyone that worked with us on 15 development of these candidate designs for the 16 Mayflower 400th anniversary on the phone. 17 like to identify yourself? 18 19 20 And in person we have Dr. Herman MS. FILSON: Hello. Would you I'm Lea Filson with the General Society of Mayflower Descendants. MS. STAFFORD: 21 Thank you for joining us. 22 MS. WASHINGTON: Hello. Good morning, Lea. Anyone else? Good morning. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Excuse me, Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 14 1 I'm recovering from a cold. 2 Washington. 3 for the Wampanoag tribe of Gay Head-Aquinnah. 4 However, I also serve as a member of the Wampanoag 400 5 Committee. 7 joining us. Thank you, Bettina, for Anyone -- MS. WASHINGTON: 8 9 I am tribal historic preservation officer MS. STAFFORD: 6 This is Bettina Excuse me. One thing I need to mention, this does not serve as government-to- 10 government consultation for the tribe. 11 committee, and I'd like to thank the Mint for working 12 with the Wampanoag people in the creation of these 13 coins. 14 CHAIRMAN URAM: 15 MS. STAFFORD: I sit on the Acknowledged. Thank you. It really has been 16 our pleasure and we could not have gotten this far 17 without you. 18 also be joining us for the deliberation of this 19 program. 20 the commission of the Women's Suffrage Centennial, and 21 potentially the United States Mint will be able to 22 work with that commission on potentially a medal to So, obviously, Treasurer Carranza will She asked me to also share that she sits on www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 15 1 commemorate that major milestone in American History. 2 3 MS. CARRANZA: I look forward to it. Thank you very much. MS. STAFFORD: 4 Also, as I mentioned in the 5 administrative session for this committee, the subject 6 matter experts worked with us to develop potential 7 pairings. 8 the subject matter experts, but they were possible 9 pairings that would work together to tell this very These are by no means recommendations from 10 complex story. 11 that packet, and we also have the ability to call that 12 up on the screen, Mr. Chairman, should you wish to 13 reference it as we get through the designs. 14 Each of the committee members have Okay, we will start now with our candidate 15 designs. 16 party from the Mayflower, the first to include a 17 family as they approach the shore of the new land in 18 late 1620. 19 the background. 20 The inscriptions include "1620," "2020," and 21 "Mayflower." 22 Design 1 GC obverse, depicts the landing The silhouette of the Mayflower is seen in Two Mayflowers adorn the outer rim. A companion design, we have 01A, gold coin www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 16 1 obverse, presents the same composition with a border 2 that depicts flora and fauna native to Patuxet, the 3 Wampanoag name for Plymouth, Massachusetts, the area 4 where the Mayflower arrived. 5 "2020," "Liberty," and "Patuxet." 6 Here inscriptions are 02 gold coin obverse depicts a Mayflower 7 family stepping out of the frame into a new life. 8 mother cradles her baby and the father holds his hat 9 bracing against the cold and windy weather, The 10 foreshadowing the challenges they will face. 11 silhouette of the Mayflower is anchored in the 12 background. 13 "2020" and "In God We Trust" reinforce their journey 14 for religious freedom and a fresh start in a new land. 15 The The inscriptions of "Liberty," "1620," Again, a companion design, 02A, a gold coin 16 obverse, features the same composition surrounded by 17 the local flora and fauna on the border. 18 Moving on to design 3, for the gold coin 19 obverse, portrays a newly arrived Mayflower family 20 standing firmly on land with apprehension about what 21 lies ahead, but also with determination to thrive in 22 unfamiliar surroundings. Inscriptions include www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 17 1 "Liberty," "In God We Trust," and "2020." 2 03A for a silver medal obverse also features 3 the same composition with local flora and fauna around 4 the border, representing the land of the Wampanoag 5 people. 6 Civil Body Politick from the Mayflower Compact," along 7 with "1620" and "2020." Design 4, formatted for a gold coin obverse, 8 9 Inscriptions here include "Together into a features a Mayflower family bracing against the cold 10 and windy weather foreshadowing their coming hardships 11 while the Mayflower is anchored in the harbor. 12 local flora and fauna on the border, along with 13 Wampanoag triangle design represent the Wampanoag 14 homeland. 15 Trust," and "2020." 16 The Inscriptions are "Liberty," "In God We A companion design, 04A, formatted for a 17 silver medal obverse, depicts the same composition but 18 is formatted as a medal with the inscription 19 "Mayflower" arced along the bottom. 20 The next four candidate designs depict 21 members of a Wampanoag family aware of the Mayflower's 22 arrival. The family stands near the shores of their www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 18 1 Patuxet homeland while the ship sails towards its 2 destination. 3 Design 5, formatted for a gold coin obverse, 4 includes coin obverse inscriptions "Liberty," "In God 5 We Trust," and "2020." 6 Design 5A, formatted for a gold coin reverse 7 includes the additional inscriptions "United States of 8 America," "E Pluribus Unum," and "Ten Dollars." 9 Design 5B, formatted for a silver medal, 10 obverse contains the inscriptions "Mayflower" and 11 "1620 to 2020," and design 5C, formatted for a silver 12 medal reverse incorporates the inscriptions "People of 13 the Dawn," and "1620" and "2020." 14 The next four candidate designs depict a 15 Wampanoag family watching from the border of the 16 design as the Mayflower arrives from foreign shores. 17 A young boy steps on the border, representing the 18 intersection of the Wampanoag people in their Patuxet 19 homeland and the Mayflower passengers. 20 Design 6, formatted for a gold coin obverse, 21 includes the inscriptions "Liberty," "In God We 22 Trust," and "2020." www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 19 1 Design 6A, formatted for a coin reverse, 2 includes the inscriptions "United States of America," 3 "E Pluribus Unum," and "Ten Dollars." 4 Design 6B, formatted for a silver medal 5 obverse, features the Mayflower and "1620 to 2020." 6 And design 6C, formatted for a silver medal reverse 7 incorporates the inscription "People of the Dawn," 8 "Patuxet," and "2020." 9 Design 7, formatted for a gold coin obverse, 10 depicts portraits of a pilgrim man and woman, 11 representing the beginnings of transition from 12 monarchy to democracy. 13 the democratic organization with their resolute 14 expressions focused on a self-determined feature. 15 Included inscriptions are "Liberty," "1620," "2020," 16 and "In God We Trust." 17 The dual portraits symbolize Featuring the same composition, design 7A, 18 formatted for a silver medal obverse, utilizes the 19 inscription "1620," "2020," and "Mayflower." 20 Design 8, formatted for a gold coin reverse, 21 depicts the signing of the Mayflower Compact by 22 Mayflower passengers. Signing before they left the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 20 1 ship, the Mayflower Compact contains tenets that would 2 later become the foundation of the US Constitution and 3 other important documents reflecting the core 4 principles of our nation. 5 States of America," "Mayflower Compact," "E Pluribus 6 Unum," and "Ten Dollars." 7 Inscriptions are "United Design 8A, formatted for silver medal 8 reverse, use the same composition and includes the 9 inscriptions "A Civil Body Politic" and "For the 10 General Good of the Colony," excerpts from the 11 Mayflower Compact. 12 Design 9, formatted for a gold coin reverse, 13 features a pilgrim and a Wampanoag Indian depicted 14 back-to-back in dignified and powerful portraits, a 15 partner in cooperation yet these away from each other 16 with differing visions, agendas and teachers. 17 Inscriptions are "United States of America," "E 18 Pluribus Unum," and "Ten Dollars." 19 Design 9A, formatted for a silver medal 20 reverse, formats the same composition and includes the 21 inscriptions that reference the pilgrim-Wampanoag 22 alliance that was entered into for the common defense www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 21 1 2 of both the pilgrims and the Wampanoag Indians. Design 10, formatted for a gold coin reverse, 3 depicts the intersection of two cultures, Mayflower 4 passengers arrived seeking a new way of life and 5 religious freedom, while the Wampanoag people seek to 6 protect their existing homeland, culture and 7 traditions. 8 America," "E Pluribus Unum," and "Ten Dollars." 9 Inscriptions are "United States of Design 11, formatted for a silver medal 10 reverse, depicts a Wampanoag man and woman employing a 11 planting technique used to grow several crops that 12 were staples for the Wampanoag people. 13 helped keep the soil healthy, maintaining the 14 resources for annual plantings and successful harvest. 15 The inscription, "Sustainers of Life," recalls not 16 only the sustainable planting technique but the 17 critical skills the Wampanoag people afforded to the 18 pilgrims by teaching them how to successfully plant 19 and harvest this land. 20 "Beans," "Maize" and "Squash" are arced across the 21 bottom border. 22 This method The additional inscriptions of Design 12, formatted for a gold coin reverse www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 22 1 depicts a Wampanoag family during the course of their 2 daily activities. 3 background with the smoke from its central fire rising 4 through an opening in the roof. 5 "United States of America," "E Pluribus Unum," and 6 "Ten Dollars." A traditional wetu home is in the Inscriptions are Design 13, formatted for a silver medal 7 8 reverse, also depicts a Wampanoag family during the 9 course of their daily activities. A large white pine 10 tree in the background symbolizes the origins of the 11 Wampanoag creation story. 12 the Dawn," and "1620 through 2020." Inscriptions are "People of Mr. Chairman, that concludes the candidate 13 14 designs. 15 share the potential pairings as put together. 16 one moment. 17 on the phone, if I could ask you to mute your phones 18 while the discussions are going. 19 If you'd like, perhaps we could briefly Just And for those of you who are joining us Thank you so much. For our committee members, this is the packet 20 that was shared with you this morning. I should also 21 note that there were, even up to the final development 22 of this portfolio, there were very important www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 23 1 observations that our subject matter experts gathered 2 about some of these designs which, once the committee 3 begins talking about them individually, we can share 4 with you. 5 the pilgrim stepping onto the shore meeting the 6 Wampanoag Indian, carried a book in his hand that has 7 a cross on it. 8 ultimately the recommendation was to remove the cross. 9 Also, the "Sustainers of Life" design that depicts a 10 male Native American and female Native American, the 11 figure on the right being the female, it was asked 12 that we go back and make it obviously more clearly a 13 female Native American. 14 with you as we begin talking about them individually. 15 For example, the design that you saw with There was robust discussion and Those things we will share For the potential pairings, you'll see -- 16 could I ask you one more time to mute your phones if 17 you're joining us on the phone? 18 hear some conversation. 19 who are joining us on the phone to mute your phone. 20 We can hear your conversations. 21 22 Okay, I believe I If I could ask those of you Okay. So, you'll see at the top the potential obverses, which are all depictions of the pilgrims www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 24 1 arriving at Plymouth. We have the ones where the 2 families are arriving via boat, stepping onto the 3 land. 4 have at the bottom, also, obverses, more close-ups of 5 the pilgrims with the Mayflower in the background. 6 Any of these pilgrims arriving obverses might be 7 paired with the "Sustainers of Life," reverse, for 8 example, or -- next slide. 9 might be paired with the -- next slide -- Mayflower And at the bottom -- I'm sorry, and you also The same arrival obverses 10 arrives in Patuxet reverses. 11 that you see here as potential reverses to the 12 pilgrims arriving obverse show the Native American 13 family. 14 cradling the baby; at the bottom we have a young 15 Native American boy stepping onto the border towards 16 the Mayflower. 17 family and the community that was here when the 18 pilgrims arrived. obverses. 21 22 At the top we have the Native American woman They all depict the Native American Next slide. Again, we have potential Mayflower arrival 19 20 So, all of these designs Any of those. Next slide. Potentially paired with the two worlds reverse. Next slide. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 25 1 Potential obverses utilizing the Mayflower 2 arrives in Patuxet. 3 Native American family watching the arrival of the 4 Mayflower. 5 two worlds reverse. 6 Again, these designs show the Potential obverses paired with, again, the Another option, we go back to the pilgrims 7 arriving, the Mayflower obverses paired potentially 8 with showing the Native American Wampanoag home life 9 as a reverse. Next slide. You'll notice we have an obverse on the left 10 11 and a reverse option on the right. 12 potential pairing of the Mayflower arrives in Patuxet 13 with a Native American family watching, paired with 14 the "Sustainers of Life," reverse. This shows the Next slide. 15 Mayflower arrives in Patuxet showing the 16 Native American family watching the arrival of the 17 Mayflower paired potentially with a reverse depicting 18 the Mayflower Compact. 19 Next slide. The "Pilgrims' Portrait" obverse potentially 20 paired with the "Sustainers of Life" reverse. 21 slide. 22 Next "Pilgrims' Portrait" obverse potentially www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 26 1 paired with the "Wampanoag Home Life" reverse. 2 slide. Next 3 Again, the "Pilgrims' Portrait obverse, 4 potentially paired with the "Mayflower Arrives in 5 Patuxet" reverse. Next slide. We have the "Mayflower Arrives in Patuxet," 6 7 showing the Native American family watching the 8 arrival of the Mayflower, potentially obverse, paired 9 with the reverse design showing the two cultures 10 meeting. Next, we have the "Mayflower Compact" 11 12 obverse, potentially paired with the "Sustainers of 13 Life" reverse. Next, we have the "Two Worlds" obverse, 14 15 potentially paired with the "Two Cultures" reverse. 16 Mr. Chairman? 17 CHAIRMAN URAM: 18 take our little rest now. 19 you. 20 Thank you, April. We can That was a good job, thank Before we begin our committee discussion, are 21 there any technical questions from the committee about 22 the designs before we begin? Robert -- I'm sorry, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 27 1 Donald? 2 MR. SCARINCI: It's not a technical question, 3 it's a history question. 4 representatives of the American Indians, or people 5 that can answer history questions? Is there any -- do we have 6 MR. WEINMAN: 7 MS. STAFFORD: 8 Washington joins us on the phone. 9 the Wampanoag tribe, and so Herman Viola is here to Is your microphone on, Don? Yes, we have Bettina She is a member of 10 answer any questions. 11 from the General Society of Mayflower Descendants. 12 And we also have Lea Filson MR. SCARINCI: Oh, wonderful. I'm wondering, 13 what happened to the Wampanoag Indians after the 14 Mayflower landed? 15 16 MS. STAFFORD: Bettina, would you like to answer that? MS. WASHINGTON: 17 I'll try to the best of my 18 ability. 19 the winter and there was one encounter that wasn't 20 that pleasant (inaudible). 21 pilgrims were pretty much left alone until about the 22 spring, and that's, of course, when (inaudible). For a while there, obviously, they came in But for the most part, the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 And Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 28 1 we -- and I'm going to say we, everyone involved, have 2 a very difficult challenge trying to put this story, 3 or this history, and we want the history to be 4 reflective of what actually happened. 5 Wampanoag perspective, we had all kinds of issues with 6 how this story is presented and that is why we have 7 tried to really sit down and work with this and other 8 committees to try and at least crack an interest to -- 9 for folks to be inquisitive of what happened. From the And I 10 thank you for your question, because I think that's 11 what we're looking for. 12 that we didn't quite care for and artists worked with 13 us and we're very grateful for that. 14 part, however, the Mayflower or the pilgrims are 15 depicted, we did not feel it was our place to tell 16 their story in direct relation to us. We're are obviously things For the most And one of the things obviously is that one 17 18 of the things that we would like is to take away the 19 beans, maize and squash and maybe replace that with 20 Patuxet. 21 and woman depicting, you know, how they lived, we too, 22 is very important because that's our family life. That was one of our customs. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 But the man Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 29 1 That's what the pilgrims would eventually see 2 (inaudible). 3 There really wasn't too much interaction and 4 then in that April (inaudible). So, that's where 5 that's coming from, that alliance. 6 CHAIRMAN URAM: 7 MR. SCARINCI: (Inaudible) Bettina, thank you very much. Thank you very much. Maybe 8 from a history point of view, maybe you could help 9 clarify this a little bit. So, after the Mayflower 10 arrived, was it disease that spread through the Indian 11 population? 12 population? 13 What exactly happened to the native MR. VIOLA: I'll try to answer. I'm Herman 14 Viola, Museum of the American Indian. 15 very complex. 16 there were Europeans coasting along, meeting with 17 Indian people, and so the tragedy is that they 18 introduced diseases, and so the populations 19 deteriorated very rapidly. 20 you know, the native peoples very much welcomed some 21 of the things that were brought. 22 items, the tools. The story is First of all, for about 100 years, And the reality is that, I mean, the cultural So, there was kind of a welcome, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 30 1 and the Indians themselves had no idea what was 2 causing the destruction of the population. 3 And, you know, in reality, some of those 4 Indians that the pilgrims first met could speak 5 English, you know, because they had been dealing with 6 seamen. 7 captured and taken to England and then came back. 8 it's really a very complicated story. Some of the Indians had actually been 9 So, But as far as our designs go, I think the 10 designs are as well done as could possibly be done and 11 with the knowledge about how little we know. 12 that everyone is trying very hard to make this work 13 very well. 14 would prefer seeing a Wampanoag family looking at the 15 ship and then the reverse showing the pilgrims 16 arriving on shore. 17 carrying supposedly the Bible, I'd rather have it look 18 like the Indian is helping them out of the rowboat 19 onto the shore, like they would have welcomed people 20 as they came ashore. 21 discussion and I'm really curious to see what people 22 are thinking. I think My feeling, in looking at these designs, I And the one with the fellows So, it's a very difficult www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 31 1 MR. SCARINCI: So, the Wampanoag Indians, 2 they never assimilated into the culture of -- that the 3 British brought with them. 4 MR. VIOLA: Correct. They didn't really 5 intermarry. 6 very few of them really intermarried. 7 pushed further west and removed. 8 any cultural interaction that way, for the most part. 9 10 11 Traditionally, with our Indian people, MR. SCARINCI: They mostly So, there was not And at some point, were the Wampanoag Indians placed in reservations? MR. VIOLA: Much later. You know, there was 12 a lot of conflict in that time period. 13 lot of warfare that went on once the Indians realized 14 that these visitors were up to no good. 15 know, the reservations came later. 16 Wampanoags today. 17 Indians still arounds today, and so that's why I think 18 it's very important that as we put this coinage 19 together, the world, as well as the American people, 20 realize that there was a culture that was here, that 21 was welcoming, and that is still here. 22 There was a So, but, you But there are There are a lot of East Coast MS. STAFFORD: And, if I may, that was, I www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 32 1 believe, some of the takeaways from our many, many 2 interactions with our subject matter experts. 3 I'll ask Bettina, Lea or Herman to confirm, was that 4 going forward in terms of pairing, which designs will 5 ultimately live on the gold coin and silver medal, 6 that it was very important to have a sense of a 7 parity, equality between the designs reflecting what 8 the pilgrims came here for and the Native American 9 communities that called this place home for hundreds 10 11 And and thousands of years. We had great discussions with our Native 12 American experts, and certainly they wanted to correct 13 the perspective that has unfortunately gotten wrong so 14 many times about Native American existing only as an 15 ancillary element in the telling of the story of the 16 pilgrims who came to this land, as opposed to in their 17 own right, who lived here, had a form of government, 18 families, etc., which is why you see a lot of designs 19 that show the other side of the coin, so-to-speak. 20 And that includes the sharing of the skills, the 21 reference to the alliance. 22 And, lastly, there was some notice that some www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 33 1 of the designs do include references to women. 2 was very critical to the Wampanoag tribe, and they'd 3 like to retain that as well. 4 MR. SCARINCI: That And, April, you're assuring us 5 that you have vetted this, and that we are not 6 offending anyone's sensibilities that we're depicting 7 these Indians as sustainers of life and as happy 8 people at the arrival of the Mayflower, while just 100 9 years later they were, for all intents and purposes, 10 exterminated? 11 12 MS. FILSON: Okay, may I say something here? This is Lea Filson. MR. SCARINCI: 13 And they're not -- the 14 sensibilities of these people are not offended by 15 these coins? 16 17 18 MS. STAFFORD: yes. Okay, I believe Lea Filson, Lea, would you like to comment? MS. FILSON: Yes. I would like to just speak 19 on behalf of the General Society of Mayflower 20 Descendants as well. 21 and have eight lines to the Mayflower, and we have 22 spent many, many hours discussing and looking at all I'm a former governor general www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 34 1 of these coins, and we were just as insistent from our 2 side that the Native American story be told as well. 3 It is a common fact known to all of us who descended 4 from the Mayflower pilgrims that without the Wampanoag 5 tribe, none of us, or none of our families would have 6 survived. 7 that strength be shown on the Wampanoag side and 8 knowledge, and all of the things that they 9 contributed. 10 11 We were very -- it was very important to us There are a few things, though, that I do want to point out. The extermination that you're talking about, 12 and all the horrible, horrible things that happened, 13 happened later in history. 14 that through the writings of William Bradford, as well 15 as the writings of Edward Winslow, both pilgrims who 16 sailed on the Mayflower, through their diaries and 17 books that they wrote, that there was not a huge, huge 18 friendship between the two, but that both the 19 Wampanoags and the pilgrims did what they needed to do 20 to survive. 21 the alliance that is noted on one of the coins, lasted 22 for 54 years. No one -- I mean, we know They protected each other, and there was I believe somebody started to interrupt www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 35 1 me. 2 MS. STAFFORD: I think that was Bettina. 3 Bettina, did you want to join in? 4 MS. WASHINGTON: 5 MS. STAFFORD: 6 MS. FILSON: I'm sorry, I'll wait. Okay. Okay. Well, anyway, the things that 7 are -- we feel it's very important to tell the story, 8 the true Mayflower story as well, because we feel that 9 it's been wrapped up and mixed and pulled in with all 10 of the horrible things that happened later. 11 a pleasant, every day joyful experience during the 12 time of the Mayflower, but what we would like to 13 emphasize is that there was a 54-year alliance that 14 Governor Carver and Massasoit signed and stayed with 15 and remained loyal to. 16 other throughout that period of the colony of 17 Plymouth. 18 It wasn't And both sides protected each As far as when the pilgrims did settle in the 19 village that was once called Patuxet, Patuxet had been 20 abandoned for many, many years because of illness that 21 happened probably because of exposure to other people 22 that came earlier. And so in the discussions, the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 36 1 pilgrims ended up settling in Plymouth, and in one of 2 the books of the writings between either Edward 3 Winslow or William Bradford, they write about talking 4 with the Wampanoags about living on this land, and 5 they were told then about the disease that had 6 happened. 7 The last point I'll make is about families. 8 It was very important to both of our sides that 9 families be represented, because this is not only the 10 first time in history that a 54-year peace was written 11 between the two and honored, which was never done 12 again toward the Native Americans, ever, but it also 13 was the very first time that families arrived on the 14 shores of the new world. 15 fishermen and hunters, and people that often would 16 create conflicts and kidnappings, and all of the 17 things that happened. 18 arrived, they arrived as families. 19 about whether or not that's the reason that it 20 happened, because the Wampanoags also had families. 21 They worked together to protect each other and their 22 families. Always before it had been But when the Mayflower pilgrims And we often talk So, the family pictures were important, I www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 37 1 2 think, to both sides equally. MR. SCARINCI: Well, in all due respect, you 3 know, we're creating a coin that seems to perpetuate a 4 fake version of history, where we're -- there are two 5 groups of people here. 6 subsequently went on to prosper and become American 7 aristocracy, while another group of people went on to 8 live their lives on a reservation. 9 creating a myth that, you know, gee, isn't this great One group of people So, and we're 10 and idyllic that we have this new world that we found, 11 and we're creating a bunch of happy people on a coin 12 that's going to be -- 13 MS. FILSON: Well, I'm not sure that I 14 understand how you call the Mayflower story a myth. 15 It depends on whether you're telling the Mayflower 16 story to commemorate the anniversary of the sailing of 17 the Mayflower or whether you're telling the story of 18 which goes many, many years beyond that. 19 the time that Plymouth Colony remained Plymouth 20 Colony, there was peace between the two. 21 22 MS. STAFFORD: But during So, if I may, I believe Mr. Scarinci was going to ask something along the lines -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 38 1 I don't want to put words in your mouth, but can we 2 guarantee that these designs won't offend, and I 3 certainly can't guarantee that. 4 want to take the opportunity to underscore is the 5 concerns that you're bringing to the table. 6 appreciate very much the entire team that took on this 7 challenge, started with the view that we not enter 8 into it unless it could be done appropriately and 9 respectfully. But what I really I The idea that it's a difficult topic, 10 it's not necessarily a pretty part of our history, but 11 the fact that it is a milestone and had great impact 12 on how this country was shaped, I don't think can be 13 argued. 14 assemble subject matter experts that could advise us 15 during the concept development, during the design 16 development, and ultimately in making recommendations 17 about which designs should be put in front of this 18 committee. And so it was very important to us to 19 In addition to Dr. Viola, there -- we also 20 had the help of Ann McMullen, Dr. Ann McMullen, from 21 the National Museum of the American Indian. 22 Initially, we worked with Michele Pecoraro and Kenneth www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 39 1 Tavares of the Plymouth 400, and also on the executive 2 board of Plymouth 400 you've heard from Lea Filson, 3 former governor general, as well as a representative 4 of the General Society of Mayflower Descendants, and 5 Richard Pickering, deputy executive director of 6 Plymouth Plantation. 7 To further represent Native American 8 interest, specifically, the Wampanoag, which is a 9 local tribe, we had John "Jim" Peters, Jr., a member 10 of the Mashpee Wampanoag, who is executive director of 11 the Massachusetts Commission on Indian Affairs. 12 was instrumental. 13 coordinator at the Cultural Center of the Wampanoag 14 tribe at Gay Head; she is also on the Plymouth 400 as 15 a board member; and she's also been associate director 16 of the Wampanoag indigenous program at Plymouth 17 Plantation. 18 us. 19 a title historic preservation officer. 20 Craddock, councilman of the tribal council for 21 Wampanoag tribe, and also a board member on Plymouth 22 400. He Linda Coombs, who is program Again, Bettina Washington is here with She's a member of the Wampanoag tribe, as well as Finally, Steve And, finally, Troy Currence, who is vice www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 40 1 president of the language reclamation project. 2 So, the majority -- all of them have been 3 involved -- the vast majority were on each and every 4 call as we developed the themes and the designs. 5 we hope to continue this very line of questioning as 6 recommendations are formulated here by the committee, 7 because the balance and how the designs go together, 8 what they say, the inscriptions, needs to be 9 considered very carefully. 10 CHAIRMAN URAM: 11 MS. LANNIN: 12 April, thank you. And Mary? I have two questions. Was the Wampanoag tribe matriarchal or patriarchal? 13 MS. WASHINGTON: 14 MS. LANNIN: Matriarchal. Matriarchal, okay. So, maybe we 15 should consider the art that shows women in an active 16 role rather than passive, okay, because I think that's 17 important. 18 lasted 54 years, you know, Herman, you can tell me, is 19 -- I think a generation is supposed to be 30 years in 20 terms of history, so this compact lasted essentially 21 two generations, which is a really long time, at least 22 in my lifetime. And the other part about the compact that So, that's what I need to say. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 41 1 CHAIRMAN URAM: 2 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Jeanne? I just wanted to 3 clarify this for myself is that we should -- you are 4 asking us to look at only the Mayflower events and not 5 the years beyond the compact of the peace, 54 years. 6 If that's our charge, then I think it makes it a 7 little more -- it is easier for us. 8 can look at other events at another time. 9 CHAIRMAN URAM: And perhaps we Thank you, Jeanne. 10 and, Don, thank you for your comments. 11 see your hand go up? 12 DR. KOTLOWSKI: Also, Dean, did I I just wanted to make a point 13 here. 14 I'm new to this, but I've done some study, not of 15 tribes at a grass roots level but of Native American 16 policy, and I think there may be a larger question 17 here, and I think it may be one of moment versus 18 momentum. 19 alliance is, you know, a long period of time in our 20 lifetimes, but in terms of the contact between 21 American Indians and European Americans, it might be 22 seen as something more momentary and certainly the Jeanne, thank you so much. Again, apologies. Because I can see the point that a 54-year www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 42 1 arrival in this particular first contact. And then 2 I'm looking at a wider momentum. 3 here is focusing not just on the Mayflower and this 4 event and this particular tribe in 1620. 5 that's the subject of the coin, but when people look 6 at the coin, they may come to other kinds of 7 conclusions. 8 there's no way you can guarantee how people are going 9 to do this. So, what I'm doing I know And, April, you were right to say How would a Native American tribe -- how 10 would the Sioux feel about this when they see this? 11 mean, how many coin collectors are there, to be sure? 12 But I made the distinction between moment and 13 momentum. 14 I Then you have a wider momentum, and I just 15 scribbled down a few thoughts here of contact, 16 relations, warfare, degree of extermination, conquest, 17 subjugation with the Dawes Act, assimilation, 18 reservation, Indian New Deal, termination, and 19 ultimately the current policy of self-determination 20 without termination. 21 narrative here, and when people look at the coin, 22 they're not necessarily going to see just something So, I think there's a wider www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 43 1 terribly specific to 400 years ago, even though that's 2 the intention, and I understand the intention. 3 thought I would raise that. 4 CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Dean. I just And, also, 5 we'll move on here to our discussion, but, Herman, 6 thanks for being here. 7 member of the committee and he continued on, and we 8 really appreciate your services as well as the 9 continuation. Herman, for the record, was a Thank you. 10 MS. WASHINGTON: 11 CHAIRMAN URAM: 12 MS. WASHINGTON: Go ahead. Could I say something? Go ahead, Bettina, yes. I'm the only Wampanoag 13 person on the call who was able to make it. 14 emails from at least two of our committee members and 15 they weren't able to attend. 16 welcome the pilgrims. 17 we did not welcome them, because (inaudible). 18 the pilgrims came to shore, they dug up our corn 19 (inaudible) -- I have First of all, we did not They showed up at our door, but 20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: 21 MS. WASHINGTON: 22 CHAIRMAN URAM: When I can't hear. But we did not welcome them. Okay, thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 44 1 MS. WASHINGTON: We did bond with them. And, 2 two, we are not extinct, otherwise I would not be on 3 this call. 4 CHAIRMAN URAM: Very good. Thank you. And 5 when we review the designs, I think that you will see 6 that it isn't necessarily -- and I think it's pretty 7 passive, some of the depictions, and I don't think 8 that is totally on the welcoming side. 9 review these, I think when you look at what it So, when you 10 actually is, I don't think it comes across that way. 11 So, consider that in your designs. 12 the thumbprint underneath, the size of a planchet, 13 because we are reviewing that. Also, keep in mind 14 So, I'd like all of our members to try and 15 keep your comments to the designs that you like, and 16 try to stay within about a five-minute time frame, if 17 possible. 18 furthest away. 19 Throw you right into this. 20 five-minute part I told you? 21 here, I can tell you that. 22 And, we're going to start with the person And so, Erik, how about that, okay? MR. JANSEN: Did you hear about that Since you're not right Go ahead, Erik, thank you. I think kind of tactically here, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 45 1 the first level I go through is, are we going to end 2 up with a single obverse and a single reverse for both 3 issues? 4 me that's the first step in the decision here. 5 are we picking two designs or are we picking four 6 designs, or potentially three, but I think you get my 7 point. 8 much larger invites more detail than the gold as a 9 smaller, potentially the size of a nickel. And I'm not advocating that, but it seems to So, Along that line, the silver palette being so On the 10 gold, I'm of a mind to potentially include designs 11 that are images incorporating both pilgrims and 12 Wampanoag natives. 13 just for whoever's running the images there, whether 14 that becomes basically utilizing designs 9, 10, where 15 you have designs that have both parties on them for 16 the gold. 17 had. 18 And so whether that becomes -- and I don't know; that's a thought that I've And then on the silver, one side pilgrims and 19 the other side Wampanoag natives, I personally am not 20 especially fond of designs 1, 2, 3, 4. 21 5 with whatever version of text we might add is an 22 attractive design. I think design I'm sensitive to the last www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 46 1 statement that was just made, "We did not welcome 2 them." 3 would tend to discount that out of respect. I'm a bit 4 stuck on design 6 for the very same reason. There 5 wasn't a welcoming here. 6 two cultures. I think this image in 5 conveys that, and so I It was just a collision of So, I'm down to working with designs 7, 8, 9, 7 8 10, 11 and 12, and from there I fall back to the 9 larger palette of silver, smaller palette on gold, and 10 I'm very interested in other people's comments. 11 think this is a difficult assignment. 12 CHAIRMAN URAM: 13 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I Thank you. Thank you, Erik. Jeanne? Thank you, Mr. 14 Chairman. 15 that this is a very difficult assignment. 16 applaud the artist who went ahead and took on these 17 designs. 18 to express, and we have four sides to do it, to tell 19 our story. 20 the story will be accepted. 21 22 I have to agree with Erik in many ways, I have to I, again, think we have a lot of information And hopefully in those four sides perhaps I guess I'm not fully prepared to make a total decision right now, because there's so many www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 47 1 designs to look at and they're also complicated. 2 I'm looking at Erik's choices of 9 and 10, I like this 3 very much for the gold side, or the gold story because 4 there's not a whole lot of information on here, 5 although it's quite expressive. 6 Wampanoags did not invite the pilgrims, but they took 7 care of them. 8 could have a little bit more information to have the 9 reverse 11. When And the fact that the And so on the silver side I think we And I thought that 3A really had the 10 pilgrims coming into this land. 11 of glum and fearful, and maybe they were -- you know, 12 they're leaving England for a specific reason, to 13 escape religious persecution, and now they don't know 14 where they're coming to. 15 portrays the pilgrims with what I would think they're 16 looking at, a little bit fearful, and to be greeted by 17 the Native Americans on their property. 18 these pilgrims contemplating? 19 embrace here, but it's what it is. 20 CHAIRMAN URAM: 21 MR. HOGE: 22 They're looking sort So, in a sense I think this Now, what are Now, I don't see an Thank you. Thank you. Robert? Thank you, Tom -- Mr. Chairman. have several observations. First of all, you know, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 48 1 we're having a reemphasis here of a program that was 2 already heavily celebrated 100 years ago in a very 3 nice commemorative half-dollar. 4 out the entire native component, and I think this is 5 where we have a chance to sort of redress at last a 6 partial wrong in earlier coinage programs. 7 would like to advocate for what Donald suggested. 8 These things still do perpetuate a myth. 9 myth of the so-called pilgrims. But that did leave But I This is the These people were not 10 pilgrims. 11 dictionary. 12 or gain merit. 13 separatists, people who simply did not want to live 14 under the laws of England at that time. 15 first to the Netherlands and decided they couldn't 16 even stand that, which was the most openly free 17 country in Europe at that time for religious 18 dissidents, and so they decided to move to a new world 19 where they, themselves, could have control. Look up what pilgrims means in the These are people trying to expiate sins What we have here is a group of They moved 20 They moved there, and shortly after the time 21 the Mayflower arrived, you also have the foundation of 22 the nearby Merrymount colony, which, as far as we www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 49 1 know, had a much friendlier relationship with the 2 native peoples, and the people from Plymouth 3 eradicated that other English colony. 4 some peculiarities here that we might wonder about. So, there's Another question I have is with regard to the 5 6 attractive imagery of the "Sustainers of Life." 7 saw that as a proposed type, and I know that the 8 pumpkin and the squash are relatively closely related 9 vegetables. We And maybe, Herman, you might be able to 10 address this for us, or some of our other people as 11 consultants. 12 the natives had? 13 plant, long, long before it appears here in a hard 14 image of the 1620 coin. 15 it a squash on the coin, but it clearly is a big, red 16 pumpkin. 17 What kind of plant really was it that In the pumpkin as an old world MR. VIOLA: So, what's going on? We call Well, let's face it, native 18 peoples developed a number of plants that transformed 19 the world. 20 MR. HOGE: 21 MR. VIOLA: 22 creations. Yes. And so corn is one of their So, New England native peoples really did www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 50 1 do a lot of providing sustenance not only to America, 2 but the world all over. 3 Smithsonian and the exhibit seeds have changed, but 4 the seeds really, basically, came from this 5 interaction between the two cultures. 6 definitely one of the plants. 7 MR. HOGE: 8 But you see right above where it MR. VIOLA: 10 MR. HOGE: Yeah. This is what I'm talking about. 11 What are those plants? 12 me. 13 MR. VIOLA: MR. HOGE: MR. VIOLA: That's right. That's what my They were brought by the Europeans. 19 20 They do look like pumpkins, and point is. 17 18 Those look like pumpkins to that's probably not native. 15 16 So, corn is says "squash?" 9 14 We told that story at the MR. HOGE: This is the kind if misnomer on the coin. 21 MR. VIOLA: 22 MR. HOGE: Yep. Another myth -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 51 1 MS. STAFFORD: I'm sorry, I was also going to 2 say the consensus of the subject matter experts that 3 this design is to be considered to remove the 4 inscription "Beans, Maize and Squash," and replace it 5 with "People of the Dawn," so that Sustainers of Life 6 could have that double meaning, referencing the 7 planting techniques as well as what they contributed 8 to the folks that arrived here from England. 9 can take your point on that, the shape of that plant, 10 11 And we and adjust it, if necessary. MR. HOGE: That's certainly not 12 inappropriate, but I think even here, to say 13 "Sustainers of Life", "People of the Dawn," this is 14 kind of getting away from the whole idea of what this 15 is a commemorative for. 16 concepts, very expressive, but what do they say about 17 the Mayflower. 18 Dawn," this isn't really talking about the separatist 19 people who arrived, the Brownists, as they were called 20 in the formation of this early colony. 21 kind of wonder. 22 I mean, these are nice "Sustainers of Life," "People of the So, I just The whole idea of the so-called pilgrims, you www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 52 1 know, we use this over and over. This is really a 2 complete myth. 3 wouldn't have used themselves, I don't believe. 4 don't think there's a -- Herman can probably help us 5 with this -- a reference for it. 6 people trying to establish a new colony where they 7 would get away from some of the English law of the 8 time period. This is a terminology which they I These were English Another point is, we're talking about the 9 10 year 1620. 11 settlements in America, the first Dutch settlements, 12 the first French ones, this sort of thing. 13 tend to perpetuate this idea that America descends 14 from the very prolific, admittedly, descendants of the 15 Mayflower, who have had a disproportionate amount of 16 influence, power and, really, significance in all 17 matters of American culture ever since that time 18 period. 19 This is long after the first English But we So, this is a weird peculiarity. And to address this point of families, too, 20 families came as colonists well before the Plymouth 21 Colony. 22 have survived without colonists. You know, the Jamestown settlement wouldn't They sent over www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 53 1 boatloads of women to marry the overabundance of men 2 there. 3 to the Jamestown Colony. 4 brought his wife and daughter, and they lived there 5 from about 1612. 6 kind of mixing up history when we focus so much on the 7 Mayflower. So, let's face it. I had an ancestor who came He went back, came back and So, this is another thing. We're Thank you. 8 CHAIRMAN URAM: 9 MS. LANNIN: Thank you, Robert. Mary? A very complex portfolio. It's 10 interesting hearing what people are saying about our 11 Hollywood version of the pilgrims being first, and we 12 need to sort of redress that. 13 portfolio, I was trying to look for action, movement, 14 things that would make someone pick something up. 15 even though Erik said he discounted, you know, 1, 2, 16 3, 4, I like the action of a family in No. 1 or 2, 17 coming -- I like the waves, it's coming directly at 18 us. 19 ship and the name that we're trying to commemorate. 20 And pairing that, sort of what the Native Americans 21 saw when they came would be the No. 6, which is where 22 the young son is actually pointing toward the ship as When I went through the So, We still see the Mayflower, which is actually the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 54 1 they come, not knowing or wondering if their lives 2 were going to change. 3 some dynamic to it and would be good for the silver 4 medal size rather than the gold. 5 And I felt that that showed I agree with Erik, that once we get to the 6 smaller palette size, that things are relatively 7 simple in terms of the gold, and I happen to like No. 8 09, for the gold, and paired with No. 10. 9 shows -- it shows tension in both -- on both sides. 10 So, it wasn't simple, it wasn't easy. 11 have to say. So, that That's all I Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 12 CHAIRMAN URAM: 13 MR. GILL: Thank you, Mary. Sam? I approach this as an historical 14 event, and not every coin tells a story, and this one 15 is supposed to tell a story. 16 complex. 17 talk about it until we're blue in the face, that's 18 fine. 19 history of the country, and I commemorate, by the way, 20 all the designers, they're beautiful. 21 beautifully done. 22 significant event, I liked the very first one I saw, And history is very We can go back and re-litigate it; we can But this memorializes an important event in the They're But because it commemorates a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 55 1 which was 1GC0, or 0, obverse, because it has the word 2 "Mayflower" on it, it describes -- it shows hardship, 3 has the two Mayflowers on the coin, and it tells a 4 story. 5 whereas the lady on the obverse was holding a baby, 6 the same goes for 5A as well. 7 watching the people coming, the Mayflower people 8 coming, and they don't know what to expect, and the 9 pilgrims certainly don't know what to expect because And the reverse, I would go to 05A or 6A, and 10 they'd never been there. 11 suggestion on the coins. 12 The Indians are So, that would be my And on the medal, a similar theme. I liked 13 4A, again, the family here holding the baby and not 14 knowing what to expect, hardship and so forth. 15 then -- and you could tinker with the animals on the 16 outside, the flora and fauna, but I'm fine with it. 17 And then the reverse, I actually liked the picture of 18 the obverse, which is 5B, as the reverse on that 19 medal, or 6B, if that's clear enough. 20 confuse anyone. And I hope I didn't And they would be my suggestions. 21 CHAIRMAN URAM: 22 MS. SALMON: Thank you, Tim. Okay, Robin? Well, I agree with everybody, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 56 1 and that's the problem. 2 the gold versus the medal needs, and also Mary's 3 comment about action and Jeanne's comment about 4 telling the story through four sides. 5 I think that's a great opportunity. This is tough. Thinking of I like that and No. 1 does have the action, although I prefer 6 7 it not to be heading straight on, but that's what it 8 is. 9 No. 1 for the gold is what I was referring to. No. 7 has a simplicity that I like for the medal. And 10 showing the People of the Dawn on No. 6C, I liked 11 that, as well as No. 5C. 12 "Sustainers of Life" imagery. 13 this point. 14 But I also liked the I just don't know at I wish you hadn't even asked me. CHAIRMAN URAM: Well, there are many good 15 designs, so, I mean, I think that it will -- thank you 16 for your comments. 17 No problem. MR. SCARINCI: Donald? The only one I really can't 18 live with is the "Sustainers of Life." 19 that's just too hypocritical for me. 20 I just can't -- I just can't live with that, right? 21 So, no pun intended. 22 So, I mean, I just can't -- And, look, and, Bob, you're right. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I mean, Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 57 1 they were separatists and the myth has been 2 perpetuated. 3 commemorative coins. 4 the history books and over the centuries, you know, 5 convinced generations of people that this event was 6 somehow important and trumped a lot of other things 7 that were much more important than this. 8 generations of people have grown up with the 9 importance of this event, and it is the way it is. They've successfully gotten two They've successfully gotten in So, 10 It's certainly important in England because they've 11 done a very good job of dealing -- throughout history, 12 throughout English history they've done a very good 13 job of dealing with their countercultural element, and 14 they've eliminated their countercultural element very 15 successfully throughout their history, certainly at 16 least up until modern times, and this was one of their 17 countercultural elements that they eliminated by 18 sending it away. 19 But it is what it is. 20 feel about it. 21 and we are here simply to give Congress the best 22 design that we can give. In this case, they sent it here. You know, and you know how I They got Congress to pass this bill www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 58 1 MR. WEINMAN: 2 congressional bill. 3 Secretary's authority. Just to clarify, this is not a This is done under the 4 MR. SCARINCI: 5 CHAIRMAN URAM: 6 MR. SCARINCI: Okay. Okay. All right. Thank you, Don. Okay, so, all right. Well, 7 then, we're going to give the director the best design 8 we can, and that's what we're going to do. 9 what it is. And it is And, look, I think the obverse one, I 10 like obverse 1, because I like that little -- I like 11 the boat coming out of the medal, and I like it paired 12 with the indifference of reverse, you know, of the 13 gold reverse in 5A. 14 boat, you know, I mean, I think that's a good pairing 15 for the gold, whether it's a Ten Dollar or a Five 16 Dollar, I don't know. 17 So, the indifference of this And probably, I could probably live with -- I 18 mean, if we have to do this thing, I mean, I could 19 probably live with the others except for 12 and 13. 20 think 9 and 9A, I'd probably have felt better if the 21 portraits were flipped, you know, to show reality as 22 opposed to the prominence of the Indian, who would www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 59 1 later be massacred or shipped off to a reservation. 2 But instead of -- it's like I really prefer not to use 3 9 or 9A, because the Indian is prominent and that's 4 just not reality, so that perpetuates a myth. So, probably other than 9 and 9A, and other 5 6 than 12 and 13, you know, I kind of like the 7 indifference of the Indian in 10. 8 not doing anything here that people don't believe 9 already, so I really don't have anything more to say 10 about this nonsense. 11 12 So, I suppose we're CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Donald. Dean, Dr. DR. KOTLOWSKI: I wanted to make just a -- Dean? 13 14 I'm going to keep my comments very, very brief. 15 interesting, this talking about myth, and I just -- 16 and the importance of pilgrims and things along those 17 lines. 18 historian here, but I would argue that historians over 19 the years have been professional historians and what 20 we teach in our classes were far more interested in 21 the Puritans than we are in the pilgrims. 22 get at Thanksgiving, and there was a Spencer Tracy It's Again, I'll refer to Herman, my fellow www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Pilgrims we Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 60 1 movie called Plymouth Adventure. 2 of things, but John Winthrop, Massachusetts Bay, 3 that's also been part of our civil discourse in terms 4 of presidents quoting the "City on a Hill." 5 Kennedy did that, Ronald Reagan did it. 6 this kind -- I'm coming at this, to some extent, from 7 a kind of dichotomy. 8 You get those sorts John F. So, you have I think what Sam said is very important. I 9 think you were leading us in sort of a direction not 10 to do too much with the coins, and I agree with you. 11 I don't think these have to tell the story, certainly 12 not a complete story. 13 some sort of impression that's as good of an 14 impression as we can get, so I have a little bit of a 15 radical proposal here. 16 I think they have to create I would propose that we use the same obverse 17 for the coin and for the medal, and the one that I 18 like, actually, is No. 9. 19 shows you the combining of two destinies and the 20 implication that there is going to be some kind of 21 separation of these destinies or cultures. 22 they're there and they are together. Because what 9 does is it www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 So, Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 61 1 And then for the reverse, I would go back a 2 few and, believe it or not, I may be the first one to 3 say this -- I think we should do a Mayflower compact, 4 because this is the United States Government that is 5 issuing the coin, and this has been seen by people. 6 And, again, I'm not expert enough to say this, but 7 it's seen as, you know, the idea of representative 8 government. 9 coin; it is represented in the 1920 stamp. Is it not representative in the 1920 There were 10 three stamps of the signing of the Mayflower compact. 11 So, that's something that is Euro-specific. 12 And then for the reverse of the other coin, 13 whether you want to do the medal or the coin, I would 14 pick something that is Native American-specific. 15 I don't know what you want to do, Don; I can go along 16 with you. 17 of Life," which is No. 11, where we get rid of the 18 pumpkins and change things. 19 maize, squash, the "People of the Dawn," you know, as 20 you said. 21 with what Mary said, suggesting something more 22 matriarchical, I don't know, because when she's -- in So, Maybe a revised version of the "Sustainers And I think that beans, And also, maybe a little bit more in line www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 62 1 a way maybe is bowing, and that shows a kind of 2 patriarchy. 3 that. I don't know what you want to do with And I'm probably going to be the dissenter 4 5 here on this one, but I want to say something about 6 No. 10. 7 separate thing, but what I think what we're trying to 8 bring up personal experiences in here. 9 seeing in the National Portrait Gallery in London a The way it is now, I know that this is a very I remember 10 painting of Queen Victoria handing a Bible to a dark- 11 skinned person either from India or Africa -- it's 12 actually not clear -- and he's bowing to her. 13 that's not, I know, what's happening here, but that's 14 the impression that it's kind of creating in my mind. 15 And if you take the cross off of that, I don't know 16 what you really get. 17 over there, and I get that the Indian is sort of 18 standing erect, and so on and so forth, as a form of 19 resistance. 20 care for that one. 21 22 And He could be bringing anything But I may be the only one, but I did not Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Dean. Before we go to Mike, I'm going to ask Greg to kind of review www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 63 1 2 our scoring sheet. Greg? MR. WEINMAN: Normally, I would pass them out 3 at this point, but I'm going to make a comment first. 4 This is a complex program. 5 newer members to CCAC, what you're going to receive is 6 not so much a ballot as it is a scoring sheet. 7 tool to help quantify the advice that you give us. 8 other words, you're encouraged to give a score of 1, 2 9 or 3 -- or 0, 1, 2 or 3, to each and every design First of all, for the It's a In 10 that's here, because it shows -- it isn't choosing 11 one, it's helping us quantify what the strength of 12 your support is for any particular design. 13 going to receive two sheets that look identical. 14 is the scoring sheet for silver medal, the other one 15 is scoring sheet for gold coin. 16 design, though, and so what we're asking for you is to 17 score them as it would appear on a gold coin, as it 18 would appear on a silver medal. 19 You're One They have the same Also, we recognize that the inscriptions are 20 complicated in this, and so if you -- in other words, 21 if you're going to score 01 with a certain score, you 22 might want to score the same thing for 01A, and then www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 64 1 we can theoretically have a conversation later about 2 how the inscriptions should play out, per se. 3 something to think about as I pass these out. 4 5 MS. CARRANZA: Just And before you take the score, I'd like to make a comment. 6 MR. WEINMAN: 7 MS. CARRANZA: Okay, sure. I really have benefited from, 8 and everybody's probably knees are knocking because 9 they don't know what I'm going to say. But I really 10 appreciate everyone's forethought on this in the sense 11 that you not only did your history and you understand 12 the purpose of this coin, but really challenge every 13 one of us here in this room to think very, very hard 14 before we portray anyone's history and gender. 15 Because when -- and I really appreciated your 16 response, Donald, when we said no, it's not a 17 congressional, it's really secretary-director, I see 18 it before this as secretary. 19 And one of the other underlying reasons we go 20 through this process, and one of the reasons we have 21 allowed certain coins to go through is because we rely 22 on our director to say this is going to sell. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 This Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 65 1 will definitely move the needle on our eroding 2 revenues. 3 other is we need to generate revenues. 4 history that this type of coin, the Mayflower 5 historical coin generates revenues, then that's one of 6 the driving factors. 7 controversial and it's not going to move, then what's 8 the sense of going through this type of artistic value 9 for something that's not going to move the needle? And so one is telling the story, but the If there's a If it's going to be very 10 And so that's another factor that we consider. 11 think, Dr. Kotlowski, that you're unorthodox; I'm 12 unorthodox speaking at this meeting. 13 should point out a couple of factors that really drive 14 our decisions to move forward. You But I thought I 15 It's a very complicated thing, and I can 16 understand and appreciate such better experts that 17 have contributed, but sometimes we have to wonder if 18 we speak for everyone out there and what is going to 19 be the reception to this. 20 the Women's Suffrage Centennial coin. 21 members in that commission and do not present 22 renditions to 15 people. I'm going through that with There's 15 We're going to try to have www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 66 1 an exclusive team just to look at it and then put 2 forward to you all. But I have attended meetings where the tribal 3 4 nations present their policies and their issues and 5 whatnot, and it is a very powerful group and a very 6 emotional group and very intentional, and so you would 7 not want to antagonize anyone or cause any friction by 8 putting out just because it looks good or sounds good. 9 So, I appreciate all the legwork that you are doing, 10 all the thoughts and consternation of making a tough 11 decision. 12 would want to make a decision on this, although I've 13 taken down notes and scratched out some, so that when 14 I look at these proposals, I'll have a more 15 scrutinizing approach to it. And I'm like you, Robin, I don't know if I CHAIRMAN URAM: 16 So, thank you. Thank you, Madam Treasurer, 17 and thanks for the comments and the confidence, also. 18 Thank you. 19 MR. WEINMAN: I'll pass out the scoresheets. 20 I guess, as always, we ask that you not complete them 21 until everybody has had something to say. 22 them out just as a convenience. I'm passing I think this is a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 67 1 situation we might give our stakeholders one more 2 opportunity, before everybody scores, to comment. 3 4 CHAIRMAN URAM: We're going to go to Mike first. 5 MR. MORAN: There's something about playing 6 cleanup hitter here, particularly in this. 7 time I went through it, it was a jumbled mess to me. 8 And then I came back to it yesterday and looked at it 9 with a fresh eye and sorted it out a little bit. 10 the way I approached it was both from a thematic 11 standpoint as well as what works on which palette. 12 And, first of all, I felt like thematically we had 13 some things that we could put in here that were very 14 forceful. 15 assigned to which palette, I got nothing but 16 confusion, and I have to hit this one in a negative 17 way. 18 The first And But when I started to look at what was First of all, you look at the gold coin 19 inset, it's a half eagle, $5 gold piece. It's the 20 size of a nickel, and almost none of these designs 21 work on a nickel. 22 these beautiful faces that get lost. They're just too complex. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 We see The baby will be Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 68 1 a pinhead on that nickel. 2 these designs that will even work on a $5 gold piece. 3 So, there are very few of I fought the Mint for using $10 as a 4 denominator. 5 and a quarter eagle -- I mean, a half eagle is a $5 6 gold piece, but I certainly embrace change if there's 7 a reason for change. 8 $10 denomination on here. 9 It's what it's always been and there's no reason to Maybe I'm just stuck in my traditions But there is no reason to put a We need to go back to $5. 10 change it. 11 confusion with the committee going forward. 12 But I think that maybe cause some So, that being said, and going back to the 13 thematic side, to me, 1 and 1A are ideal for the 14 silver medal. 15 that says is change is coming. 16 here they come. 17 but they're there, and it's coming right at you. 18 through that window, they're going to break right 19 through that window into the native culture. 20 me, that is forceful and it tells a story, and it 21 somewhat dovetails with what we talked about and 22 struggled with here today. The palette is big enough, and what I mean, it's forceful, Sure, there's a lot of uncertainty, And, to It's kind of like I'm www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Out Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 69 1 reminded in "Game of Thrones Winter is Coming." 2 this case yeah, it did. 3 It's fine what Donald said. In I turn around 4 and say, well, that's on one side. 5 is obverse and which is reverse here; what's going to 6 change? 7 matriarchal. 8 background. 9 there, but to me that shows what was there before the And it's 13. I don't care which That shows their culture, it's There's their spirit tree in the I'm not sure I used the right terminology 10 pilgrims arrived, and this is what they're coming 11 into, and that boat is crashing through. 12 that told a story on the silver medal. 13 And to me Then I went, what in the hell am I going to 14 do with the gold coin? 15 you can't put that Mayflower compact on a gold coin. 16 You almost can't put it on a silver coin. 17 8. 18 cultures, or you can do 7. 19 to do a partial torso on a $5 gold piece. 20 are, in spite of the fact it says 10 there. That's No. But you can do 9, and that is a mixing of the two 21 22 Because Chris has too many -- But you're going to have You just I do like the fact that E Pluribus Unum, for one, many. Unfortunately, if you're Native American www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 70 1 you might not like the one that turned out, but, 2 anyway. 3 problem is, almost none that works on the reverse 4 because they're too busy. 5 don't know what I'll do for the gold coin reverse. 6 But either one of those works, 7 or 9. The And that's my problem. I You know, you get the little boy pointing 7 there's a ship coming; my personal opinion is, if we 8 saw a spaceship land with alien creatures, we're not 9 going to be pointing, we're going to be getting the 10 hell out of Dodge, and I'm not so sure but what they 11 didn't do the same, and then peak around from bushes 12 to look at what in the world this thing with sails 13 was. 14 reverse, but I'm not about to try and tell you all 15 what to do there. 16 possibly, and I promise I'm about to shut up -- no, I 17 don't like any of them. 20 I'll do something on the It's what I think should be done, CHAIRMAN URAM: 18 19 So, I'm at a loss. Thank you, Mike. Jeanne, go ahead. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: If I can add just one 21 comment to 11, "Sustainers of Life." 22 discussing pumpkins and squash and so forth. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 We were Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 71 1 Gardeners often plant beans, maize and pumpkins and 2 squash, whatever, together, and it's called the three 3 sisters. 4 be able to help me with this. 5 squash and pumpkins came from the Southwest 6 territories because they were dried and they moved 7 through trade to the Northeast colonies or tribes. 8 So, to me, these little round things are neither 9 pumpkins, squash or gourds; they're all the same. Pumpkins actually -- and, Herman, you might But I believe the If 10 you are gardening, you'll find that they just develop 11 differently. 12 Potter thing that they can live into and make beer 13 from, you know, very watery, but squash is drier and 14 can be sustained through a winter and a summer. 15 think that squash, if we left it there, is an 16 appropriate title. 17 And the pumpkins, you know, are a Harry So, I Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Jeanne. Well, 18 first, I want to thank the entire committee for -- 19 Herman, did you want to say something? 20 MR. VIOLA: I mean, you're correct, that the 21 three sisters are just synonymous with New England 22 Indian people, and so it really fits perfectly. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 And I Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 72 1 believe the discussion has been quite fruitful and I'm 2 quite pleased with it. 3 what Mike had to say, frankly. 4 that the obverse should show native people, and then 5 it's the reverse showing the newcomers arriving. 6 so there are a number of ones that really would work 7 very nicely here. 8 families, that the native people that were here 9 certainly didn't welcome, but they were surprised and 10 interested, and you know, you can have a little child 11 looking from behind the father's legs or something, 12 and who are these people? 13 ships before. 14 Atlantic Coast for about 100 years, so it wasn't like 15 a spaceship; it was just, is it going to land here or 16 come here? 17 I kind of stick with -- I like And my own feeling is And But it's important to show the But, frankly, they had seen Ships had been going up and down the That's basically the difference. So, I do think we have some very good designs 18 to work with, and I think the important thing here is 19 that this happened, it's got to be recorded, 20 documented, and I'm hoping, then, that there will be 21 some literature that arises out of the coins, and that 22 will have a better way of bringing this into the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 73 1 classroom education-wise and tell the complete story. 2 And for most Indian people, it's not a great story, 3 but today they're very proud and they're becoming 4 resurgent, and I think they'll be welcoming that the 5 American people are looking at this and telling a good 6 story about it. CHAIRMAN URAM: 7 8 9 Thank you. Thank you very much, Herman. And Mary? MS. LANNIN: I just have a couple more things 10 to say about No. 1. 11 squash off. 12 subject matter experts because, for them, "People of 13 the Dawn," and the identity of the Wampanoag tribe 14 that was here, representing that community, in balance 15 with "Sustainers of Life," which at once refers to the 16 beans, maize and squash and the planting technique, 17 but also the fact that it was very much the thing that 18 sustained the pilgrims here by teaching that to them. 19 We are taking beans, maize and That was the recommendation of the MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Okay. Because as I 20 understand the three sisters from a nutritional, you 21 know, culinary point of view, is that those three 22 items in combination provide all the amino acids and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 74 1 vitamins a human being needs to live. 2 actually very sophisticated. 3 sophisticated diet in terms of maintaining health than 4 the people on the ship that were coming in. 5 shows them as very powerful and sort of masters of the 6 world and very sophisticated. So, I don't object to 7 having beans, maize and corn. We may actually be 8 teaching somebody something about that, that it's 9 perfect amino acids for humans. 10 CHAIRMAN URAM: 11 MR. HOGE: And so it's So, they have a far more So, this So, that's it. Thank you. Robert? Can I make one additional 12 observation, a little bit tongue-in-cheek. 13 look at No. 1 and No. 1A design here, shows a pioneer 14 who certainly would not have survived without the 15 assistance of the Wampanoags. 16 up in a little tiny tub of a boat, ready to capsize 17 with his family. 18 is probably an impossibility or extremely stupid. 19 This is a guy -- I mean, polling, you have to do it at 20 the back, if anyone's ever seen a gondolier. 21 guy, he couldn't survive very long at all. 22 But if you Here's a guy standing He's polling from the front, which So, this Also, notice that these so-called squash, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 75 1 really pumpkins, in the "Sustainers of Life," these 2 have already been cut, so they're not really growing 3 or living; they're ready to become jack-o-lanterns. 4 Thank you. 5 CHAIRMAN URAM: I'm going to just wrap up 6 and, Rob, what you said reminded me, when I started in 7 the financial world when I was 23 years old, I was in 8 an attorney's office, was smoke-filled, and he says, 9 "Young man, I want to tell you I'm a man of decision, 10 and I've decided not to decide." 11 when you said that, I'm thinking, okay, that could be. 12 So, that's kind of, But I want to thank all the artists, also. 13 We have some wonderful renderings and so forth, and I 14 think Sam mentioned, and a number mentioned of telling 15 the story about this event, about the history. 16 do like 1 and 1A, but now that Robert kind of squashed 17 that, I have to rethink. 18 family is definitely relevant in the description and 19 caption, so I'm going to be looking at that as I look 20 forward on that in No. 5 as well. And I I think the importance of 21 But when you look at No. 10, and a couple of 22 these designs, and I'm just going to make a comment on www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 76 1 this. 2 of the things is I like the motion and I think Mary 3 brought it up, the motion of the boat, the motion of 4 the story. 5 new world, essentially, and some of the other designs 6 and depictions have this same movement that I think 7 brings forward the sternness and the person crossing 8 that line sort of coming into the new world. 9 make my decision, I'm going to be looking at some of 10 11 12 And if you don't have the cross on there, one The idea of this person stepping into the So, as I those movements and stories behind what might be. So, I want to thank everyone for the time that we have spent on this, and Greg? 13 MR. WEINMAN: 14 CHAIRMAN URAM: We have the two stakeholders -Oh, Lea and Bettina, would 15 you like to make a general, final comment, short 16 general comment? 17 MS. WASHINGTON: Well, I want to thank the 18 committee for taking on this difficult task. 19 want to say that when it comes to our history, our 20 Wampanoag history, we should be telling the story. 21 So, I hope you have listened to our words. 22 appreciate the fact that you will think about everyone www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I just I do Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 77 1 will look at this coin. 2 3 CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. Thank you very much. 4 MS. WASHINGTON: And thinking about history. 5 I have an issue with you cutting me of, so what I 6 think I'm going to do, I'm going to call for a 7 government-to-government consultation with you. 8 will be sending you a letter asking for that, and that 9 way we can make sure you understand. 10 MS. STAFFORD: And I Bettina, I'm sorry, we're 11 having trouble hearing you and I think the chairman 12 wasn’t sure if you were finished. 13 he's trying to cut you off. MS. WASHINGTON: 14 I don't believe That's all right. I'm going 15 to call for a government-to-government consultation 16 with you through our tribal government. 17 receiving a letter and that way I can be sure that you 18 understand our concerns. 19 much for your time and your effort. 20 CHAIRMAN URAM: Lea? So, you'll be I want to thank everybody so Thank you. Thank you for your comments 21 as well. Are you still there? Okay, well, once 22 again, thanks everyone on the phone as well. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 78 1 MR. WEINMAN: For those of you who are newer 2 to the CCAC, I wanted to mention one more thing about 3 the scoring sheet. 4 "Merit" on it. 5 program, they're evaluated each year, and so even if 6 this is -- you may think this is not the right coin 7 design for this particular program, if you think the 8 design had merit, it's valuable to us to give you an 9 opportunity to express as such. You'll see a button that says That's because the artists in our So, that's why that 10 button is there for you to use it, if you'd like. 11 Also, is Erik -- do you have a scoresheet and do you 12 have an ability to email it, or do you need to 13 verbally tell us what your scores are? MR. JANSEN: 14 15 I have it and I just opened it, and I can mark it up and I'll send it back to you. 16 MR. WEINMAN: 17 CHAIRMAN URAM: 18 MR. WEINMAN: 19 MR. JANSEN: 20 Thank you, Erik. Did Dennis -- Vanessa did a good job, thank you. 21 22 Wonderful. MR. WEINMAN: ever? Did Dennis come to the phone No, apparently not. Thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 79 1 CHAIRMAN URAM: 2 MS. LANNIN: Mary? I just have one more question. 3 For those of us who thought No. 1 and No. 1A were 4 dynamic designs, and trying to keep this gentleman 5 alive with the pole in the wrong place, is there 6 anything that we could do to that design, because I 7 really like the boat coming at us, that could modify 8 the vulnerability of tipping over, I guess? 9 question. 10 CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Mary. Just a We'll take 11 that under -- depending on how the vote comes, then we 12 can go from there on that. If everyone would please vote, and then we'll 13 14 be in recess as well for 20 minutes. 15 MR. GILL: I'm going to vote for No. 1 16 anyway. 17 reality get in the way. 18 19 20 This thing is complex enough without having CHAIRMAN URAM: So, reconvene back about quarter till or just before. MR. WEINMAN: Everybody be sure to your name 21 on both sheets, so I know whose sheets they are. 22 your name on the top of both sheets. Put You can either www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 80 1 pass them down or take them directly over to Vanessa 2 and Roger. 3 [Break.] 4 CHAIRMAN URAM: 5 Okay, Greg, go ahead and summarize. 6 MR. WEINMAN: Okay. This was a bit of a 7 complex tally, but the -- I'm going to start with 8 silver. 9 through the same one again for the gold. This is the silver medal. I'm going to go So, for 10 silver, the 01 received 8 votes as a silver obverse 11 and 4 votes as a silver reverse. 12 13 14 15 16 17 01A received 7 votes as a silver obverse and 3 votes as a silver reverse. 2 received 3 as a silver obverse and 1 as a silver reverse. 2A, same, 3 as a silver obverse, 1 as a silver reverse. 18 3A received 3 as a silver -- 19 MS. BORER: 20 MR. WEINMAN: 21 22 3A or 3? This is 3 -- the scoring sheet doesn't have 3 -MS. BORER: It was 3A. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 81 1 MR. WEINMAN: 2 MS. BORER: 3 4 3A. Because of the way it was formatted. MR. WEINMAN: Okay. 3 -- it doesn't matter. 5 3 received 3 as an obverse and 1 as a silver reverse. 6 4, 4A, received 7 as a silver obverse and 1 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 as a silver reverse. 5, 5B, received 3 as a silver obverse and then 5, which is formatted as 5C, received 2 as a silver reverse. 6 received 11 as a silver obverse and 8 as a silver reverse. 7 received 9 as a silver obverse and 8 as a silver reverse. 8, which is 8A, received 7 as a silver obverse and 9 as a silver reverse. 9, 9A, received 8 as a silver obverse and 5 as a silver reverse. 10 received 5 as a silver obverse and 3 as a silver reverse. 11 received 16 as a silver obverse and 12 as a silver reverse. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 82 1 2 3 4 5 12 received 10 as a silver obverse and 8 as a silver reverse. And 13 received 13 as a silver obverse and 11 as a silver reverse. Okay, all that said, let's move over to the 6 gold coin, starting with 01. 7 possible obverse and 4 as a possible reverse. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 It received 7 as a 1A received 4 as a possible obverse and 2 as a possible reverse. 2 received 3 as a possible obverse and 1 as a possible reverse. 2A received 3 as a possible obverse and 1 as a possible reverse. 3 received 7 as a possible obverse and 2 as a possible reverse. 4 received -- hold on -- 2 as a possible obverse and 1 as a possible reverse. 5 received 2 as a possible obverse and 2 as a possible reverse. 6 received 3 as a possible obverse and 6 as a possible reverse. 7 received 11 as a possible obverse and 7 as www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 83 1 a possible reverse. 2 3 8 received 5 as a possible obverse and 5 as a possible reverse. 4 5 9 received 22 as a possible obverse and 11 as a possible reverse. 6 7 10, design 10, received 9 as a possible obverse and 10 as a possible reverse. 11 received 6 as a possible obverse and 4 as 8 9 a possible reverse. 12 received 7 as a possible obverse and 5 as 10 11 a possible reverse. 12 13 And 13 received 5 as a possible obverse and 3 as a possible reverse. 14 15 So, a bit of an across-the-board scoring without clear, not necessarily clear favorites. 16 17 CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Greg. Would anyone at this point like to make any motion? 18 MR. MORAN: 19 CHAIRMAN URAM: 20 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Can we adjourn for lunch? 21 Tom. 22 we going to be able to -- Go ahead, Jeanne. Excuse me. Greg, what is the cutoff point? Thank you, I mean, how are www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 84 1 MR. WEINMAN: Yeah, well, what you're 2 referring to is typically in these situations we say 3 that the committee has informally decided that -- to 4 get the committee's recommendation you need at least 5 50% plus 1, which in this case, unfortunately, would 6 mean you need at least 16. 7 handful. 8 silver, would be 11 as an obverse, and for the gold, 9 the only one that got there was 9 as in obverse. And there's only a If we pick the only ones that got 16 for the That 10 said, just because it didn't reach it that way, 11 somebody could argue -- you could always make a motion 12 if you want to recommend something, or alternatively 13 you could leave us your data and we will utilize it in 14 looking at -- in talking to the subject matter experts 15 and what the CFA does. 16 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Is it possible today to 17 review those images that received the most? 18 like the four or five images -- 19 MR. WEINMAN: 20 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: You know, Sure. -- that received the 21 most and then we could make a recommendation as a 22 committee on reviewing them? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 85 1 MR. WEINMAN: 2 MR. MORAN: Absolutely. Let me throw my intentions in on 3 this. 4 obverse, 9. 5 of the reverses on the gold coin? 6 7 10 11 And it's a good one. MR. WEINMAN: Would have been 9 as well. MR. WEINMAN: The best was 9 as a reverse; coming in second would have been 10 as a reverse. MR. MORAN: 13 MS. LANNIN: 15 The best reverse on the gold MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 12 14 What was the best coin would have been 9 as well. 8 9 We do have a clear consensus on the gold coin Which one is 10? That's the one with the Bible. But they're going to take that cross off. MR. MORAN: Just for the hell of it, I'll 16 make a motion and you call can vote it down, that we 17 accept 9 and 10 for the gold coin, then we'll -- then 18 let's revote on the silver. 19 CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. So, we have a motion 20 on the floor by Mike to do the gold -- recommend the 21 gold No. 9 and No. 10, obverse and reverse. 22 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Second. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Second? Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 86 1 CHAIRMAN URAM: 2 MR. HOGE: Any discussion? Robert? I would like to make an 3 observation here that this would not include the word 4 "Mayflower" and in fact would not then indicate what 5 the occasion is. 6 MR. WEINMAN: Once again, inscriptions you 7 can do by separate motion. 8 inscriptions are on the coins right now. 9 MR. HOGE: 10 It's not as positive what Okay. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. 11 now is, and seconded by Jeanne. 12 discussion? 13 MR. SCARINCI: 14 MS. LANNIN: 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 what? So, the motion right Any further Without the cross, what book? It could be fabric. You know It could be anything. MR. SCARINCI: Okay. All right. I'm abstaining on this. MR. WEINMAN: Just by way to clarify, it isn't that it's not a Bible -MR. SCARINCI: I'm abstaining anyway, so it doesn't matter. MR. WEINMAN: Just to clarify, based on -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 87 1 and I don't want to speak for the subject matter 2 experts, but my understanding was it's just that this 3 group of people would not have been that flashy, would 4 not have put a cross on their Bible. 5 they were. They were reformists, yes. DR. KOTLOWSKI: 6 That wasn't who So, we can assume, then, that 7 it is a Bible, even if it doesn't have the cross on 8 it? MR. WEINMAN: 9 That's the implication. 10 DR. KOTLOWSKI: Yeah. 11 CHAIRMAN URAM: Robert? 12 MR. HOGE: Neither of these has an indication 13 of a Mayflower, the flower that in fact is in some of 14 the designs, nor is there a picture of the ship, 15 either. 16 exactly relate. So, even if it says Mayflower, it doesn't 17 CHAIRMAN URAM: 18 MR. GILL: Sam? I think this still has to sell, 19 and I don't think either one of those we just flashed 20 up there are going to sell like something that has a 21 Mayflower on it, dates on it, what we're trying to 22 commemorate and it tells a story. That's just my www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 88 1 view. 2 3 MR. SCARINCI: What's the story? I mean, there is no -- 4 MR. GILL: 5 MR. SCARINCI: 6 MR. GILL: 7 MR. MORAN: Well, that is not a story. There is no story here. This is a story, the No. 1. But you can't use No. 1 on a gold 8 coin, because you can't see it. 9 a silver medal. I'm maneuvering around to that. CHAIRMAN URAM: 10 I'm all for No. 1 on Mike, let's ask Ron, what do 11 you think about the planter (ph) size for No. 1 and 12 striking of that? MR. HARRIGAL: 13 I mean, clearly there's a lot 14 of detail there. I think we can get -- we can get the 15 general idea across with it, but when you start 16 looking at all the detail on the clothing and that 17 type of thing, you are going to lose a lot of that. I think, go back to when we did the keelboat 18 19 nickel. You see detail, you can see the boat, you can 20 tell there are people in it. 21 that, you know, they're obviously coming off the ship 22 here, but a little problem with the woman in front of You'll be able to tell www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 89 1 the guy with the pole. 2 separate that. 3 MR. GILL: 4 MR. HARRIGAL: It's going to be tough to The babies are gone. And the baby is going to look 5 like a sack of potatoes or something. 6 going to see the baby at all. 7 8 CHAIRMAN URAM: coin? 9 10 Does it have to be a $5 size Could it be a $10 gold piece, a real one? MR. HARRIGAL: The program office would have to talk about. 11 12 You're not MR. WEINMAN: Because I think -- and feel free to comment -MS. BAILEY: 13 So, the plan is for this to be a 14 quarter ounce so that it's the same size as what 15 others may do. 16 when you go up in size on a gold coin, that is 17 something that we would face. 18 We also want it to be affordable, and MR. WEINMAN: I would have to go back and 19 look at the Treasury memo that approved this program, 20 I can't appropriately identify it as being a quarter 21 ounce. 22 I don't -- we may not accept that. MS. BAILEY: I don't know, yeah, I'd have to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 90 1 look. 2 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: the floor, seconded. We have a motion on Let's have a vote. 4 CHAIRMAN URAM: 5 MS. STAFFORD: 6 CHAIRMAN URAM: Any further discussion? Repeat the question. Okay. So, the motion is that 7 you'll have obverse No. 9 and reverse No. 10 on the 8 gold. 9 Jeanne. 10 The motion was made by Mike Moran, seconded by All those in favor signify by saying aye, or raise your hand. 11 MR. JANSEN: 12 CHAIRMAN URAM: 13 14 Wow, okay. Aye. Erik's an aye. Opposed? And recorded Don's abstention. MR. JANSEN: I'm curious. Did that go down 15 because people don't agree with the reverse, or are we 16 walking away from our compelling obverse decision? 17 CHAIRMAN URAM: Erik, I think it's more the 18 Mayflower issue than anything. Those voted against 19 can speak on it if you'd like. Okay, Robert? 20 MR. HOGE: These are actually depictions that 21 are very similar. They both show the Native American 22 man and the pioneer man. One of them is simply heads www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 91 1 and the other shows the bodies. 2 duplicating each other, which is kind of missing the 3 point, because they totally leave out Mayflower. 4 CHAIRMAN URAM: 5 Mike. 6 something else? 7 these designs -- 10 Well, how about this, then, One of these designs and then pair it with If there's an agreement that one of MR. MORAN: 8 9 They're actually Greg, what was the No. 2 on the reverse? MR. WEINMAN: No. 2 on the reverse would have 11 -- that was No. 2. 12 beyond that, it probably would be either -- 7. 13 No. 1 was 9, 10 was No. 2. CHAIRMAN URAM: But It seems to me like we like 14 No. 10 and we can't find a pairing because of the 15 planter size, and we need the vessel itself somehow. 16 Can that all be scaled down? 17 MS. LANNIN: Go ahead, Mary. I like Dean's idea, the radical 18 one, of the Mayflower Compact. 19 9 as an obverse and -- I know, Ron, you're going to 20 say it's really busy, but at least it gets the word 21 "Mayflower" in there. 22 CHAIRMAN URAM: So, what if we did No. But on the gold -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 92 1 MS. LANNIN: I know, never mind. 2 CHAIRMAN URAM: 3 MR. MORAN: That's good for the silver. We're back to the same problem I 4 had when I was trying to evaluate these. 5 find a gold coin reverse. 6 CHAIRMAN URAM: I couldn't I just couldn't. Well, that's what Rob and I 7 were talking about, but we're going to make a 8 decision. 9 let it go, unless someone has some strong opinions I think it might be at this point that we 10 that we can make this, that it goes back -- it goes 11 back to the Mint to decide the pairing on it with the 12 recommendations to work it out. 13 MR. JANSEN: Well, Tom, Tom, my only concern 14 with that is, and with all due respect to the CFA, 15 this issue of busyness and the palette size, it's 16 going to get lost on them, and I'm just concerned with 17 that. 18 CHAIRMAN URAM: I agree. But I also think 19 that if we're not able to resolve definitively a 20 design, then we have to have that fallback. 21 22 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Is it possible, Mr. Chairman, that we would take out "E Pluribus Unum" on www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 93 1 No. 10 and put "Mayflower" in there, or "United States 2 of America?" Is there someplace that we could put 3 "Mayflower?" You know, we have a lot of text and 4 interesting text that I think we could -- for those 5 who voted against these two, is there something that 6 could be in the text that would help you change your 7 mind? 8 9 MR. WEINMAN: You could always make a motion that the word "Mayflower" appear somewhere and you 10 give the Mint discretion to move around inscriptions 11 to try to make that happen. 12 13 14 MR. MORAN: little boat out there on the horizon? MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 15 You wouldn't see it. 16 MR. MORAN: 17 18 Is the issue that we want a No, you can't see it. It would be too tiny. I'm just trying to get a vote. I'm almost at the point of frustration, Jeanne. CHAIRMAN URAM: The other idea would be if 19 you go with 5A or 5B -- or, for instance, 5B has 20 "Mayflower" on it with the graphics 5B, and then team 21 data with No. 9. 22 Dean, go ahead. DR. KOTLOWSKI: Yeah, I had another radical www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 94 1 idea, because I don't want to give up my Mayflower 2 Compact, as you can tell -- is that we take 9 and 8, 3 the obverse and reverse, and make that the silver 4 dollar, and then we take 1 and some version, maybe, of 5 11, 12, 13, for the reverse of the gold. 6 too much -- is it Mike's problem still? 7 CHAIRMAN URAM: Is it still Yeah, the gold is -- the 8 silver would be the No. 1 on the silver, which is 9 probably where it would be best because of the size. 10 But as I was mentioning on the gold, if you want to 11 have "Mayflower" on the gold, you could use that 5B 12 with No. 9, or if there is something similar. 13 MS. LANNIN: 14 CHAIRMAN URAM: 15 16 17 18 And then that's the reverse. There's the Mayflower then the reverse being -MS. LANNIN: Which actually gives a lot of prominence to the Native Americans. MR. MORAN: The only thing I would object to 19 on 5 is the fact that the baby will get lost. 20 do 6, it's essentially the same design but the figures 21 are more distinct. 22 CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. If you We could make a motion www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 95 1 to put "Mayflower" in there. 2 the Mayflower is missing. 3 might be -- you have the young person and the 4 curiosity scene coming over, and then you have -- then 5 you can have Mayflower somewhere added. MS. LANNIN: 6 7 8 9 So, I agree. silver. CHAIRMAN URAM: This might be the better, though, for the gold because of the size. MS. LANNIN: 11 MR. MORAN: 12 since I got slaughtered the -- 14 15 16 Yeah. I'm not going to make the motion CHAIRMAN URAM: Let's try again. Go ahead, make your motion. MR. MORAN: All right. I move that the No. 9 for the obverse -- is that right? 17 CHAIRMAN URAM: 18 MR. MORAN: 19 CHAIRMAN URAM: 20 MR. MORAN: 21 CHAIRMAN URAM: 22 I think that Except 6 toward really 5 for 10 13 That's the difference is Um-hum. And No. 6 for the reverse -B. 6B. Okay. We have a motion. need a second. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 We Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 96 1 MR. MORAN: I'm going to go to lunch. 2 MS. SALMON: 3 CHAIRMAN URAM: Second. Thank you, thank you. Okay, 4 so let's put them back up. 5 If not, let's put them back up there. 6 saying for the gold now, we're looking at the gold. 7 We're looking at 5B -- 5A, right? 8 no child, so we're going to go with B. 9 MR. MORAN: 10 Any further discussion? So, we are There you go. No, I thought it was 6. CHAIRMAN URAM: 6, okay, 6. Sorry, I was 11 thinking -- okay, no child. 12 is what we have teamed up with No. 9. There you go. Okay, 6B Right, Michael? 13 MR. MORAN: 14 MS. LANNIN: This is the reverse. 15 MR. JANSEN: I actually have an idea. 16 17 18 But Yes. What if -CHAIRMAN URAM: Wait, we have a motion -- pardon me, Erik? 19 MR. JANSEN: 20 CHAIRMAN URAM: 21 MR. JANSEN: 22 design 8 again, okay? I'm sorry. Go ahead. I was going to say, look at I know it's busy, but here's a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 97 1 thought, because I've seen it happen before on the 2 gold. 3 to pop a lot more and solve the complexity problem, 4 but it may pull some contrast and give us a little bit 5 of satisfaction. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 If we incuse the Mayflower Compact, it's going CHAIRMAN URAM: You're saying this -- well, okay, we have a motion first on -- that Mike had. MR. JANSEN: I apologize. I didn't know there was a motion. MR. MORAN: Don't worry, Erik, I get voted down all the time. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. So, right now the motion is for 6B and 9, right? 14 MS. LANNIN: 15 MR. MORAN: 16 MS. LANNIN: And 6B is the reverse. 17 MR. JANSEN: I didn't think there was a 18 9 is the obverse, right? Yes. second, was there? 19 CHAIRMAN URAM: 20 MR. JANSEN: 21 CHAIRMAN URAM: 22 Erik's comments as well. Yeah, Robin did second. I couldn't hear it, I'm sorry. That's okay. And you heard So, any further discussion? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 98 1 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes, I have one. If we 2 take 9, just plain old 9, for the -- whatever side, if 3 we change the text to 9A, I think we have a better 4 understanding of what this is about. MR. JANSEN: 5 6 I thought we were focusing on images and we would do the text a little later? 7 CHAIRMAN URAM: Well, if you're comfortable 8 with the text in 9A, then we can always make -- we 9 change the text either way after another motion. So, 10 right now the motion is for 6B for the reverse and 9A 11 for the obverse. 12 for the gold, and this would be for that particular 13 planchet size. And then we'll deal with -- this is MR. WEINMAN: 14 Keep in mind we're talking 15 about a gold coin. 16 is going to have to have some coin-related 17 inscription. MR. MORAN: 18 This is not the medal, so the coin Yeah, I was about to bring that 19 up, particularly if you go with 9B. You've got no 20 room for inscriptions on the obverse at all, and then 21 you're -- all of a sudden you're cramming everything 22 in. You've got "E Pluribus Unum," "In God We Trust," www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 99 1 the denomination, "United States of America," the 2 date, the whole thing gets shoved over there. 3 a mess. 4 CHAIRMAN URAM: This is Let's go ahead and vote. So, 5 that's a good point and I think you're right, we'd up 6 right where we are on that particular one. 7 MR. MORAN: 8 CHAIRMAN URAM: 9 I know where this one's going. All those in favor of 6B for the reverse and 9A for the obverse, signify by saying 10 aye and raise your hand. 11 opposed. 12 MR. WEINMAN: 13 CHAIRMAN URAM: 14 MR. JANSEN: 15 CHAIRMAN URAM: Four, one abstain, two We don't have Erik. Erik? I'm a no. Okay, then it's defeated. 16 So, we're back, then, to the discussion of whether 17 we're going to hand this off to the Mint to tweak it. 18 Go ahead, Mary. MS. LANNIN: 19 What if 9A is the reverse, okay? 20 So, that gets the alliance in for the common defense, 21 or either 9 or 9A to make everything correct legally 22 as a coin. That becomes the reverse, and No. 6 is the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 100 1 obverse. 2 3 What if we just switched them? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Make a motion and go with that. 4 MS. LANNIN: Okay. I make a motion that 6 5 becomes the obverse and that, whichever version of 9 6 makes it correct as a coin, be the reverse. 7 8 CHAIRMAN URAM: Mary's made a motion. Is there a second? 9 10 Okay. MR. MORAN: I'm the kiss of death. I'm not going to do it. 11 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 12 CHAIRMAN URAM: Second. Jeanne seconds it. Any 13 further discussion on the same designs as we book this 14 coin? 15 the five, on the gold, that image. 16 discussion? 17 aye, raise your hands. 18 MR. WEINMAN: 19 20 That's all we're doing. This obviously fits on Any further All those in favor significant by saying Opposed? Go back to the yeas. Go back to the yeas. CHAIRMAN URAM: 21 three, four, five. 22 one abstained. Okay. Opposed? All in favor, one, two One, two, three, four, Passes. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 101 1 2 MR. RYDER: vote? Wait a minute. I had my hand up. 3 CHAIRMAN URAM: 4 MR. RYDER: 5 Be my guest. I thought you guys were having lunch. 6 MR. WEINMAN: 7 CHAIRMAN URAM: 8 Didn't I have a silver. Okay. 9 Move on to the silver. Okay, moving on to the I think this -- MR. MORAN: Let me make a suggestion. Now 10 that we've got the gold coin out of the way, let's 11 reboot and just vote again. 12 CHAIRMAN URAM: 13 MR. MORAN: 14 On the silver coin from the designs. 15 CHAIRMAN URAM: 16 MR. MORAN: 17 CHAIRMAN URAM: 18 21 22 Right. That's where we are. Just redo the vote. Don't you want No. 1, I thought, is for the silver? MS. LANNIN: 19 20 On what? I thought the silver was sort of already -CHAIRMAN URAM: We're putting the larger images, the images that -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 102 1 MR. MORAN: 2 CHAIRMAN URAM: 3 Okay, well We have something to vote on because -- 4 MR. WEINMAN: The scoring sheet is really a 5 tool. 6 based on what your preference seems to be. 7 want -- I mean, is there any information from the 8 scoring sheet that you need? MR. MORAN: 9 10 At this point you're welcome to make motions MR. WEINMAN: 12 MS. LANNIN: 14 There were no real strong preferences. 11 13 If you The closest one was 11. Was the one that we used for the gold. MR. MORAN: Yeah, and you drop those out. 15 I'm saying instead of sitting here doing what we just 16 did, which is painful, let's just, as a committee, 17 rescore this thing with the 6 and 9 eliminated. 18 19 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Yes, but 11 has gotten the most votes, right? 20 MS. LANNIN: 21 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 22 CHAIRMAN URAM: Yes. Put the silver -- Remember back to Sam's point www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 103 1 as well, and we want to make sure it sells. 2 MR. WEINMAN: If you like, we could recess 3 for lunch and you could discuss this and you could 4 discuss this and come back if you want some time. 5 Lunch is ready. 6 7 CHAIRMAN URAM: Pardon me? MR. WEINMAN: 8 9 What's the desire? vote. Okay, you can't -- you can't As long as you're not -- let me clarify. As 10 long as you discuss among groups of less than seven, 11 then you can have a conversation. 12 among groups of less than seven during lunch, as long 13 as you come back after lunch and have conversation 14 with the larger group. 15 16 17 18 MR. JANSEN: You can caucus Erik, you got that? Make sure you don't do that, okay? MR. JANSEN: I hate to tell you this, but I'm going to bed. 19 MR. WEINMAN: 20 MR. JANSEN: 21 MR. WEINMAN: 22 MR. JANSEN: What time is it there, Erik? It's 2:30 in the morning. Thank you, Erik. We do the best we can. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 104 1 CHAIRMAN URAM: 2 MR. JANSEN: 3 [Lunch.] 4 CHAIRMAN URAM: We are now recessed. Good night, mates. I'd like to call us back 5 together from recess and lunch, and we'll continue our 6 dialogue. 7 Scarinci for clarification to his vote. 8 9 And I understand that I'll call on Mr. Don MR. SCARINCI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, you know, I've listened to a lot of comments 10 that have been made today about all the various coins 11 and there is no clear vote or recommendation from the 12 CCAC by our own rules. 13 read the design descriptions, there's a paragraph, 14 paragraph two, that is in the design descriptions that 15 says, and I'll quote it directly. 16 Mint intends to sell the gold coin and silver medal 17 individually, and paired with a coin produced by the 18 British Royal Mint. 19 and United States Mint Coins and Medals will more 20 fully tell the story of the Mayflower voyage from the 21 beginning through its fruition." 22 again. And the -- when I sat and re- It says that, "The The pairing of British Royal Mint I'll read that "The pairing of the British Royal Mint and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 105 1 United States Mint Coins and Medals will more fully 2 tell the story." 3 Royal Mint is doing a project together with the United 4 States Mint, and that's pretty awesome. 5 that, you know, we should encourage that. 6 that's happening to some degree this year with 7 Australia. 8 other mints around the world are celebrating the 50th 9 anniversary as well, with coins that are being So, that implies that the British And I think You know, As we've seen with the moon landing and 10 produced by other countries around the world and that 11 the Mint has nothing to do with. 12 would be great if we did, and it would be great if 13 this could be the beginning of the Mint doing that. You know, but it 14 So, I think we should really be supportive, 15 and since no one really feels, you know, passionately 16 here, and since I abstained, I'd like to withdraw my 17 abstention and introduce a motion to allow the Mint 18 staff to select from the designs the designs that are 19 most compatible and suitable for inclusion in a -- in 20 a pairing with the coins produced by the British Royal 21 Mint that tell the American side of the Mayflower 22 story that will look well together and be marketed www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 106 1 well side-by-side, and tell the full story of the 2 Mayflower, and give that discretion to the US Mint. 3 CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay, Don. You've heard 4 Don's comments. 5 to rescind their motion, that would be Jeanne and 6 Mike, or Jeanne, you made the original motion for the 7 gold piece. If the maker of the motion would like You'd have to rescind that vote. 8 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 9 CHAIRMAN URAM: For the gold? Yeah, if we're going to -- 10 you're talking about going back all the way, Don, on 11 the whole program for both the silver and the gold, 12 correct? 13 MR. SCARINCI: 14 CHAIRMAN URAM: Yeah. If that's the case, then 15 we'll need to have the original motion rescinded, and 16 that has to come from the maker. 17 MR. WEINMAN: 18 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: That's you, Jeanne. I know. Okay, this is 19 a little difficult for me to rescind because I like to 20 have to have the work with the silver medal, or coin. 21 But I thought our gold was already decided and it's a 22 little disappointing to have to take it all back, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 107 1 Donald, all of it. 2 yes. 3 forward, I will rescind my motion. 4 CHAIRMAN URAM: 5 If you would say half, I would say So, yes, I will -- in order for this to go And the person made the second was Robin? 6 MR. WEINMAN: Although technically speaking, 7 the motion already passed. This is really a motion 8 for reconsideration, to be honest, not a motion to 9 rescind something that already passed. 10 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 11 MR. WEINMAN: Okay, thank you. It's really something -- 12 really, what you're saying is you need a motion for 13 reconsideration. CHAIRMAN URAM: 14 15 anything with the other motion at this point? 16 MR. MORAN: 17 CHAIRMAN URAM: 18 If you repeat your motion. The motion is to hand it back. MR. WEINMAN: 19 20 I guess we don't have to do It was already passed, so go ahead. 21 MR. HOGE: 22 CHAIRMAN URAM: A motion to reconsider -Okay, Robert. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Can you second Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 108 1 that? 2 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 3 CHAIRMAN URAM: 4 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 5 CHAIRMAN URAM: To reconsider? To reconsider. All right. All those in favor of 6 reconsidering the motion signify by saying aye, raise 7 your hand. 8 is that right? 9 10 Opposed? Erik's not on the phone anymore, Okay, passed. Okay, so now you have another motion? need another motion? We Donald or Jeanne, either one? 11 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 12 MR. SCARINCI: Go ahead, Donald. Now I would introduce my 13 motion to authorize the United States -- to authorize 14 the Mint staff to select the designs that would work 15 best with the designs -- in a pairing with the designs 16 selected by the British Royal Mint in a combined 17 package that would be most suitable to tell the story 18 from the point of view of the Mayflower. 19 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Okay. Can we have a 20 discussion before? One of the things that 21 concerns me is that by turning over this whole thing - 22 - www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 109 1 2 MR. SCARINCI: There needs to be a second first. 3 CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay, that's true. Anyone 4 like to second the motion to have the Mint review 5 designs? 6 MR. HOGE: 7 CHAIRMAN URAM: 8 MR. WEINMAN: 9 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: I'll second it. Robert? Now discussion. Okay, thank you. What 10 concerns me about this motion, although I think it's a 11 very good motion, I think it also sort of obliterates 12 our job as CCAC members to decide what is in our 13 opinion a good design for this program. 14 the only thing that troubles me. 15 through a whole lot to arrive at the very cattywampus 16 decision we had, and I would like people to consider 17 that when they're voting on this. 18 MS. LANNIN: And this is I think we went What if, for Donald's motion, 19 what if the wording -- so we don't seem to be ceding 20 our authority back to the Mint and thereby negating 21 what we feel our jobs are, which is Jeanne's concern, 22 and I agree with that -- what if in Donald's motion he www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 110 1 put in based on the discussions and vote totals of the 2 coins that we previously voted on, so the Mint 3 wouldn't be looking at something that we didn't have a 4 -- 5 CHAIRMAN URAM: 6 MS. LANNIN: 7 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 8 As irrelevant. -- as irrelevant, okay? Good idea. I agree with that. 9 MS. LANNIN: Okay? So, that kind of covers 10 as a bridge for everything, and then we wind up with 11 something that is very salable and that shows our 12 viewpoint and the Native American viewpoint. MR. WEINMAN: 13 14 Does Donald accept your amendment? 15 MR. SCARINCI: Yes. Yes, I do. And I also 16 make a point that this is not a precedent; this is a 17 unique -- yes, I do accept the amendment. 18 make the point that this is not a precedent (ph) for 19 anything in the future. 20 in this instance. 21 encouraging -- we're encouraging joint efforts, and 22 this is -- And I also There are two unique things One unique thing is that we're www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 111 1 MR. WEINMAN: Hold on. Whoever -- anybody on 2 the phone, please mute your phone. 3 conversation. 4 Thank you. MR. SCARINCI: We can hear your Please go ahead, Donald. And this is an effort that 5 we're applauding, and it is probably a very difficult 6 thing to do, dealing with another government. 7 number two, that none of the designs in our vote, in 8 our voting came even close to getting a majority by 9 our own rules. 10 And, So, in light of both of those things 11 happening, this seems like a good and expeditious 12 solution in order to move this ball forward. 13 and adding that language does create that restrictive. MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 14 So, yes, I just want to add one 15 more thing. 16 very difficult for me is that the designs that were 17 presented for the very first time I've been able to 18 look at all these designs and say, wow, these are 19 good. 20 you very much. What has made this proposal and program So, I applaud the artists that did that. Thank 21 CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. Dean? 22 DR. KOTLOWSKI: I am strongly committed to www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 112 1 the Anglo-American special relationship, but as this 2 conversation has unfolded about this particular coin, 3 which I could have supported in the very prescribed 4 way that I've articulated a little bit earlier, I've 5 lost all enthusiasm for the project, and therefore I'm 6 going to vote against this motion on the assumption 7 that when it is defeated we will move on and de facto 8 will go back to the Mint, and literally I'm washing my 9 hands of it. CHAIRMAN URAM: 10 Thank you. Okay, we have a 11 motion. Any further discussion? 12 a vote. All those in favor of the motion and the 13 amendment to the motion, raise your hand. 14 Abstained? Thank you. If not, we will take Opposed? Passes. One last thing before we move off this topic. 15 16 Just keeps giving and giving. 17 you. 18 record I thought I would this, since she also took the 19 time to do that and I wanted -- if she'd been on the 20 line, this is what she's going to say. 21 wanted to say thank you on behalf of our society. 22 There are over 10 million Mayflower descendants in This is from Lea. I'll just read this to She got cut off, and for the "Hi. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I just Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 113 1 America and over 35 million in the world. 2 will be for all of them. 3 important makers in history, American history, and we 4 thank the secretary of the Treasury. 5 to be included in this discussion. 6 And she is the -- on the former Governor's Council and 7 president of the Meeting House Charitable Trust. 8 Thank you. 9 These coins It marks one of the many We are honored Thanks. Okay, moving right along. Lea." Why don't we -- 10 hey, can we have a little bit of a break. 11 a little bit of a break after this, so you're back and 12 let's review the designs for the American Innovation 13 $1 Coin Program. 14 You've got April? MS. STAFFORD: Yes, sir. And if it's okay 15 with you, Mr. Chairman, we'll do one state at a time 16 and then pause for deliberation. 17 looking at the candidate designs and the design 18 descriptions, I'm going to ask Megan Sullivan, who is 19 the design manager for this program, to reference any 20 preference from the governors' offices that she may 21 have received, as well as acknowledge any subject 22 matter experts that we might have joining us on the At the end of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 114 1 phone. 2 All right? The 2019 American Innovation $1 Coin 3 candidate designs. 4 Innovation Dollar Coin Act, requires the secretary of 5 the Treasury to mint coins in recognition of American 6 innovation and significant innovation and pioneering 7 efforts of individuals and groups. 8 concepts for this program were developed in 9 consultation with the governor of each of the states, Public law 115-197, the American The design 10 as well as the Smithsonian's Lemelson Center for the 11 Study of Invention and Innovation, and approved by the 12 secretary of the Treasury. 13 concepts must feature a significant innovation, 14 innovator or group of innovators. 15 reviewed by subject matter experts on each innovation, 16 as well as the governors' representatives and 17 representatives from the Lemelson Center. As per the act, the Designs have been We will start with Delaware. 18 The first 19 concept. Born in Delaware in 1843, Annie Jump Cannon 20 was an internationally renowned astronomer, who 21 invented a system for classifying the stars that is 22 still in use today. So, Delaware design 1 and 1A www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 115 1 features Annie Jump Cannon seated at a table 2 classifying stars from a photographic glass plate. 3 The additional inscriptions are "Classifying the 4 Stars" and "Annie Jump Cannon." 5 Delaware 2, 3 and 4 depict the Harvard 6 Observatory, open to view the night sky. 7 observatory is where the photographic plates later 8 analyzed by Annie Jump Cannon were created. 9 designs include the inscription "Annie Jump Cannon." 10 Designs 2 and 4 include the inscription "Classifying 11 the Stars," and design 3 includes the inscription 12 "American Astronomer." 13 silhouette of Annie Jump Cannon against the night sky 14 with a number of stars visible in the sky. 15 design 6 depicts Annie Jump Cannon looking through a 16 telescope observing the stars. 17 seven stars featuring the seven stellar 18 classifications she developed. 19 depicts starlight through a prism along with the 20 letters "O," "B", "A", "F", "G", "K" and "M," 21 representing the spectral classification scheme 22 developed by Annie Jump Cannon. This The Delaware design 5 features a Delaware She's surrounded by Delaware design 7A Design 8 features the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 116 1 inscription "Annie Jump Cannon." 2 9 features a telescope inside an observatory. 3 additional inscription is "Stellar Classification." 4 And Delaware design The Moving on to Delaware's next concept. Nylon, 5 the first commercially viable synthetic fiber ushered 6 in a fashion revolution, help the allies win World War 7 II, and transformed the chemical industry by proving 8 that the composition of polymers could be predicted 9 and engineered like many other chemical products. 10 Delaware design 10 features the hands of a 11 scientist as he mixes the ingredients to create nylon. 12 A simplified graphic representation of the nylon 13 molecules featured in the background. 14 symbolizing the importance of nylon to the allied 15 victory in World War II flank the inscription 16 "Invention of Nylon." 17 "1940" is the year that nylon was developed. 18 Laurel wreaths The additional inscription Delaware design 11 depicts the critical use 19 of nylon, a parachute canopy and lines. The star and 20 circle attached to the lines is the symbol of the 21 allied forces during World War II. 22 and laurel wreath represent the importance of nylon to The victory banner www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 117 1 the allied victory. 2 "Invention of Nylon" and "Victory in World War II." 3 The additional inscriptions read Delaware design 12 depicts some of the 4 varying uses of nylon. 5 paratrooper who has jumped from a B-24 Liberator. 6 Both the parachute and the parachute cords are made of 7 nylon. 8 additional inscription is "Nylon." 9 The design features a The inset features nylon toothbrushes. The Delaware designs 13 and 14 depict the use of 10 nylon in parachutes and parachute cord along with the 11 inscription "Nylon." 12 Liberator and contains the additional inscriptions 13 "World War II" and "Parachutes and Cords," along with 14 a parachute inspired by the lapel pen worn by World 15 War II army paratroopers. Design 14 features a B-24 16 Delaware designs 15 and 16 utilize sewing 17 machine and fabric to highlight the use of nylon in 18 synthetic fiber, which has had a lasting impact on the 19 fashion industry. 20 is a US flag. In design 16, the fabric being sewn 21 And I will ask Megan Sullivan to share any 22 governor's preferences we received for Delaware, and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 118 1 also check in with the subject matter experts we might 2 have on the phone. 3 MS. SULLIVAN: So, for Delaware, they have 4 given me a ranked list of number of the designs, so 5 I'll just walk through that. 6 No. 1 is design 5; ranked No. 2 are designs 1 and 1A; 7 ranked No. 3, design 10; ranked No. 4 is design 6; 8 ranked No. 5 are 13 and 14; and ranked No. 6 are 14A 9 and 14B. And now I will see if we have any liaisons 10 on the line. 11 tentative. 12 So, their first ranking I know for both of them it was very Courtney, were you able to call in? MS. STEWART: 13 I am. 14 another meeting. Hi, yes, I sure did -- I mean, I'm here until about 2:00, and then I have 15 MS. SULLIVAN: 16 you're here. 17 Dava, are you available? Well, I'm surprised that Thank you so much for calling in. 18 MS. SOBEL: 19 MS. SULLIVAN: And, Are you on the line? I am. Oh, my goodness, 100%. Thank 20 you guys. So, we have Courtney Stewart, who is with 21 the Secretary of State, and Dava Sobel, who wrote "The 22 Glass Universe" and is our Annie Jump Cannon expert. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 119 1 2 Dava, do you have anything you'd like to say before the commission begins their discussion? MS. SOBEL: 3 I'd just like to say again how 4 wonderful it was that a woman who was given this 5 opportunity in the 1800s created a system of stellar 6 classification that is still in use today. 7 of people don't know that it was her work, and she was 8 a Delaware native. 9 her, and if you have any specific questions about what 10 the classification meant or what the images represent. 11 She worked from glass plates that now number about 12 half a million, and they're all still at the Harvard 13 Observatory. 14 digitized because they're so valuable for research. 16 The state is extremely proud of And they're in the process of being MS. SULLIVAN: 15 And a lot Thank you so much. Courtney, did you have anything you also wanted to add? 17 MS. STEWART: No, I think you are ranking and 18 I'm sorry that it's something so close to the meeting 19 date. 20 pleasure working with you, Megan. 21 have been fabulous. 22 design. I just want to add that it's been an absolute You and the team We're very pleased with the first We really, really like that one, and we like www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 120 1 all the designs. 2 stood out to us the most. 3 what the committee has to say about this, so thank 4 you. But the one we ranked No. 1 really 5 MS. SULLIVAN: 6 CHAIRMAN URAM: 7 MR. SCARINCI: didn't hear that. 14 She just said she's sorry -- I No. 5 is their first preference. 12 13 Thank you both Megan and She says No. 5 stood out the most? MS. SULLIVAN: 10 11 Thank you so much. Dava. 8 9 So, I'm anxious to hear MR. SCARINCI: Yes, good taste, very good taste. CHAIRMAN URAM: I'll just start out by saying 15 in looking at the designs and listening to Dava and 16 Courtney and the presentation that April made, they're 17 all worthy, certainly, but this No. 5 certainly is one 18 that is stellar, I mean, without a doubt. 19 that before, but, no, it's great recognition and great 20 design by the artist as well. 21 to say in regards to this, and I'll turn it over to 22 the committee now. Never heard So, that's what I have And, Robert, then, just remind www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 121 1 everyone, please be conscience of their time. 2 you. Robert? 3 MR. HOGE: 4 CHAIRMAN URAM: 5 Thank I'm in favor of No. 5. That's very good. Robin, go ahead. 6 MS. SALMON: 7 CHAIRMAN URAM: No. 5. I already did this. Hey, this is going better 8 than the morning. 9 You may comment on anything above and beyond No. 5, 10 11 Could we do this again? Okay, Sam? keep in mind. MR. GILL: I think No. 5 would make the 12 prettiest coin, but nylon is a huge component of how 13 the war ended in World War II. 14 of pilots had to bail out of planes and they relied on 15 a nylon parachute to get down. 16 that parachuted into Normandy and other places, and to 17 this day, parachutes are still made out of nylon. 18 in terms of a history perspective, the stellar thing 19 is wonderful. 20 of the way -- what's affected us all here and going 21 forward, nylon really has it. 22 Hundreds of thousands Hundreds of thousands So, It's very, very important, but in terms CHAIRMAN URAM: Do you have a preference on www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 122 1 the design for nylon? 2 MR. GILL: I was going to say No. 11. And 3 the only reason I said that is victory in World War II 4 and it emphasizes that point. 5 going to look on a coin; it's not going to be nearly 6 as pretty as No. 5, but -- 7 CHAIRMAN URAM: I'm not sure how it's The recognition, and I think 8 that's going to be our dilemma going forward. 9 Michael? Thank you. MR. MORAN: 10 We've taken a different turn with 11 this program than any of the ones that I've been 12 involved with since 2011. 13 and we chose designs and illustrated that particular 14 theme. 15 judgments -- one being the theme itself and the second 16 being the design. Today we're being asked to actually make two CHAIRMAN URAM: 17 We've always had one theme Once again, whoever is on the 18 phone, would you please mute your telephone? 19 on the phone, please mute your telephone. 20 you. 21 22 Anybody We can hear Thank you so much. MR. MORAN: And when you get to New Jersey, for me that was a no-brainer in terms of which was the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 123 1 most important theme, and that's -- I could judge that 2 one. 3 sure I can, I'm not sure I'm qualified to. 4 would pick the theme before I'd pick the design, 5 because I think the theme is the most important thing. 6 And I wanted to listen to, from the two specialists, 7 as they went down their favorites I kind of kept 8 score. 9 important to them than nylon, even though I happen to And Pennsylvania as well. Delaware, I'm not And I And to them the star classification was more 10 agree with Sam. 11 to judge what the state would like to see. 12 think -- I ask as we go forward with the other states 13 to take care to either -- if we have multiple themes, 14 to help us in terms of how we judge these. 15 little bit different than just judging designs. 16 I'm going to listen to the people from Delaware and 17 I'm going to go with No. 5. But I don't think I'm in a position 18 CHAIRMAN URAM: 19 MR. SCARINCI: Thank you, Mike. So, I It's a But Donald? New Jersey, of course, is a 20 sister state to Delaware, and I am bursting with pride 21 not only with the good taste of the liaison from 22 Delaware, but the good judgment in supporting the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 124 1 achievement and our ability to commemorate the 2 achievement of a woman, which is far more rare in our 3 coinage than yet another war commemorative. 4 you look at the Red Book, how many more coins 5 commemorating war? 6 commemorating World War II? 7 you know, with that theme do we really need to 8 produce? 9 achievement of a woman, and an opportunity to do it in 10 such, you know, an esthetically appealing way as this, 11 you know, that doesn't present itself too often. 12 to me, this is a no-brainer and this is not an 13 opportunity that we should miss. 14 more opportunities to do war things. 15 know, nylon was important, you know, to the war 16 effort, and it was important to so many other things 17 as well. 18 you know, to a lot of contemporary products that we 19 all use, including my Ted Baker sneakers, you know? 20 But the opportunity to commemorate Annie Jump Cannon, 21 that opportunity is not going to present itself too 22 frequently to this committee, so we should grab it. And if And how many more coins And how many more coins, But the opportunity to commemorate the So, There will be plenty And, yes, you I mean, it was important to what happens, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 125 1 CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Don. 2 DR. KOTLOWSKI: No. 5. Dean? It reminds me of in 3 the morning or late at night I check Google, and it's 4 the birthday of somebody who I never heard of, and all 5 of a sudden I learned something I didn't know. 6 I'm absolutely for No. 5. 7 that Don said. 8 saying and Sam about World War II. 9 angle is very important. And so I agree with everything I also acknowledge what Mike was I think the gender And it's interesting, while 10 I'm absolutely for No. 5, I applaud them for picking 1 11 and 1A as No. 2, because I think these coins 12 underscore the idea that this was a woman. 13 nice thing about 1A, 1 and 1A, is you get a sense with 14 her clothing wear, what time period she was working 15 in. 16 straight do gender, because I didn't particularly like 17 No. 6. 18 what those stars and those letters are going to be, 19 and that one struck me as a little traditional, a 20 little stodgy, but No. 5. And the And I also have to applaud them, they didn't just I don't think people are going to understand 21 CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. 22 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Jeanne? Thank you, Tom. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I have Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 126 1 to agree, when I received the portfolio, No. 4 and No. 2 5 sort of jumped out because they were just so 3 different and wonderful, but I have to go with No. 5 4 because it has everything we need. 5 much. MS. LANNIN: 6 Thank you very I, too, will vote for No. 5. I 7 think it's an absolute stunning design. 8 as we're trying to get young girls interested in STEM, 9 that what a perfect thing to be able to look back at a I think that 10 woman whose classifications are still in use today. 11 So, without question for me it's No. 5. 12 13 CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. Thank you, Mary. Any other discussion on Delaware at this point? 14 MR. WEINMAN: We're just talking about 15 logistics. 16 go in each state, and then pass a note and we can 17 start working on them. 18 Maybe the best thing to do is vote as we CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Now, Dava, Courtney, 19 anything further that you'd like to address to the 20 committee before we vote? 21 22 MS. STEWART: This is Courtney from Delaware. I just wanted to add that some of the comments that www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 127 1 you all made was that highlighting a woman in science 2 was something the governor did want to highlight. 3 your comments were spot on. 4 at the beginning. I should have added that So, I just want to thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: 5 Okay. Thank you very much 6 for all the time that both of you put in on the 7 project. 8 is a great start to this series and when you're 9 launching it. 11 And being the first state, I hope that this So, congratulations. MS. STEWART: 10 So, Well, thank you very much. You all have a fantastic day. 12 CHAIRMAN URAM: 13 MS. SOBEL: Thank you. This is Dava speaking. It was a 14 privilege to be consulted on this, and I am really 15 just glowing listening to the comments. 16 a great story, and I think it will be a story to offer 17 young women. 18 CHAIRMAN URAM: 19 well. 20 everyone to vote. 21 right along, then. 22 next state? I think it's Thank you for your time as With that, we'll take a minute or so for Okay, is everybody in? Moving April, would you like to do our www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 128 1 MS. STAFFORD: Absolutely. Moving on to 2 Pennsylvania. 3 Great Depression and built in less than two years, the 4 Pennsylvania Turnpike was hailed as the nation's first 5 superhighway when it opened for automobile traffic on 6 October 1, 1940, and was a model for our nation's 7 interstate highway system. 8 9 The first concept conceived during the Pennsylvania design 1 depicts the driver's point of view of a 1940s vehicle while driving on the 10 Pennsylvania Turnpike. 11 "Pennsylvania Turnpike in 1940." 12 Inscriptions include Pennsylvania design 2 mimics a 1940s 13 automobile steering wheel and dashboard with the 14 Pennsylvania Turnpike logo outlined in the center. 15 The additional inscription is "Pennsylvania Turnpike." 16 Design 3 mimics a 1940s automobile tire and a 17 wheel cap with the Pennsylvania Turnpike log outlined 18 in the center. 19 Pennsylvania designs 4 and 4A depict a 20 tollbooth operator welcoming the public to the 21 Pennsylvania Turnpike as a 1940s automobile enters the 22 tunnel in the background. The additional inscription www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 129 1 is "Pennsylvania Turnpike." 2 Designs 5, 5A and 6 feature a bird's eye view 3 of a highway interchange of the Pennsylvania Turnpike. 4 Design 5 also depicts the Pennsylvania Turnpike logo. 5 Pennsylvania design 7 depicts a smiling woman 6 in a 1940s convertible driving along the Pennsylvania 7 Turnpike. 8 depiction of the turnpike with a trumpet-style 9 interchange that characterized many of the original Encircling the drawing is a stylized 10 1940s interchanges. 11 Turnpike" is shown in the style of linen postcards 12 common in the 1930s through the 1950s. 13 inscription "1940" indicates the year the turnpike 14 opened. The inscription "Pennsylvania The 15 Design 8 features the familiar keystone 16 shaped Penna Turnpike road sign pointing toward a 17 depiction of the turnpike showing the road's 18 remarkable features, passing through mountains via 19 road cuts making travel faster and safer. 20 the drawing is a stylized depiction of the turnpike 21 for the trumpet style interchange that characterized 22 many of the original 1940s interchanges. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Encircling Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 130 1 Pennsylvania designs 9 and 10 depict a bird's 2 eye view of a busy interchange along the Pennsylvania 3 Turnpike. 4 turnpike, while design 10 features the traditional 5 two-lane roads. 6 conveys a sense of continual motion, like traffic, 7 while symbolizing the ideas of transportation, 8 invention and progress. 9 are "Pennsylvania Turnpike" and "Since 1940." 10 Design 9 features a modern view of the The large wheel inside the ramp loop The additional inscriptions The second concept for Pennsylvania. In 11 1953, the University of Pennsylvania announced that 12 Dr. Jonas Salk and his team had discovered a vaccine 13 they believed could prevent polio, a devastating 14 disease which disproportionately affected children and 15 young adults, and left many of its victims paralyzed 16 and unable to walk. 17 Pennsylvania design 11 depicts an artist's 18 conception of the poliovirus at three different levels 19 of magnification, along with a silhouette of a period 20 microscope, representing the extensive research that 21 was conducted to develop a cure for polio. 22 additional inscriptions are "Polio Vaccine" and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 The Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 131 1 "1953." 2 Design 13 depicts a child receiving a 3 vaccination and features the inscription "Polio 4 Vaccine." 5 Pennsylvania design 16 features a child 6 running with a kite and a shield with the words "Polio 7 Vaccine 1953." 8 protection from polio, and the globe represents the 9 international success of the vaccine. 10 The shield represents the defense and Pennsylvania design 18 depicts a young girl 11 wearing old-fashioned leg braces and using crutches, 12 representing those afflicted by the poliovirus. 13 additional inscription is "Polio Vaccine." 14 The Design 19 represents the before and after of 15 the polio vaccine divided by the image of a syringe 16 and bottle. 17 the left side of the design. 18 children play basketball. 19 is "Polio Vaccine." 20 A now obsolete iron lung is depicted on On the right, two The additional inscription Pennsylvania design 20 depicts a caduceus, 21 often used as the symbol of medicine, formed around a 22 vaccination syringe with a rotating drum-style test www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 132 1 tube rack in the background, representing the 2 development of the polio vaccine and the strong 3 history of medical innovation in Pennsylvania. 4 additional inscription is "Polio Vaccine." The And the last design concept for Pennsylvania. 5 6 Pennsylvania's history includes an extensive list of 7 medical innovations, starting with the creating of the 8 nation's first public hospital in Philadelphia with 9 help from Benjamin Franklin in 1751. Pennsylvania 10 Hospital was founded to care for those in the city who 11 could not afford private medical care in their homes. 12 Pennsylvania design 21 depicts the rod of 13 Asclepius. 14 healing. 15 the creating of Pennsylvania Hospital, the nation's 16 first public hospital. 17 any preferences from the governor's office, as well as 18 introduce our subject matter experts. 19 Asclepius is the Greek god of medicine and The additional inscription "1751" represents MS. SULLIVAN: I'll now ask Megan to share I'm actually going to hand it 20 off to one of my liaisons, who I know is on the phone. 21 Julia, would you like to introduce yourself and your 22 team? And if you have comments from the governor and www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 133 1 team, feel free to share those as well. 2 MS. BRINJAC: Certainly. My name is Julia 3 Brinjac. 4 Pennsylvania Department of Banking and Securities. 5 don't know if anyone else from Pennsylvania was able 6 to make it on the call. 7 there? 8 these designs are sent to the governor's office for 9 review. I'm the deputy policy director at I Curt or Carl, are you guys Okay, I guess it's just me. So, we -- all We had some concerns about both the 10 historical accuracy of some of these designs, as well 11 as some sensitivities to our current environment. 12 it's easier, I could run through -- I have actually 13 out in front of me -- I can run through some of the 14 concerns we have for certain designs, and then give 15 you our preferences. 16 17 If Does that work? CHAIRMAN URAM: That will be fine. Preferences would be ideal first. 18 MS. BRINJAC: Sure. Preferences, we've 19 selected for the turnpike No. 8. 20 is the best depiction of the Pennsylvania Turnpike and 21 also the most historically accurate. 22 polio vaccine we selected No. 11. We believe that that And for the We believe that www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 134 1 that is also the most historically accurate and also 2 culturally sensitive. 3 concerns regarding the syringe and our ongoing 4 epidemic with heroin in the state and opioid use, 5 which is why we generally prefer that one for the 6 polio vaccine. 7 At this time we had a lot of For the rest of them, so, like, No. 1, we 8 think that it's not a very good depiction of the 9 turnpike. The landscape isn't accurate. And then for 10 2 and 3, those don't really -- while they are accurate 11 to the time, we don't feel that they accurately 12 represent anything about the turnpike in particular. 13 4 and 4A, we think that's a little bit of a 14 narrow view on the turnpike. 15 it's just the tunnel system, when in reality it is a 16 massive superhighway that leads through a bunch of 17 different landscapes in Pennsylvania. 18 It makes it look like For the four-leaf clover designs, 5, 5A and 19 6, while that's also a piece of the turnpike, it's not 20 very representative of what the turnpike looks like. 21 And then for 7, we think that the woman in 22 the foreground kind of crowds out the turnpike, which www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 135 1 should be the hallmark, the main focus of the design, 2 we feel, for Pennsylvania. 3 And then 9 and 10 for the turnpike, again, it 4 doesn't really evoke much about Pennsylvania Turnpike. 5 To us it's a little bit crowded and cluttered and 6 we're not quite sure what we're looking at, from our 7 point of view. 8 9 And then by and large for the polio vaccine, outside of No. 11, we feel some of these are a little 10 culturally insensitive, especially No. 19. 11 for the hospital, we feel like No. 21 is a little bit 12 too generalized. 13 the context of the hospital system. 14 we would be great with either 11 or 8, although we do 15 -- I'd like to point out that there are some 16 implications -- I know after talking about Delaware, 17 which is reflecting a woman and how important that is 18 with what we're seeing right now with vaccination 19 issues in the media, I didn't know if that was 20 something to take into consideration when expressing 21 the polio vaccine concept. 22 And then 1751 doesn't mean anything without CHAIRMAN URAM: That being said, Okay, Julia, thank you very www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 136 1 much. Anything else? 2 discussion, and I'll call on Sam first. 3 MR. GILL: Okay. Well, let's start our Well, she chose the two that I 4 would choose for the turnpike or the polio, and it 5 depends on where you want to go with this. 6 insurance of the impact on society, polio vaccine is 7 far and away impacted everybody around this table. 8 And so if you want to go that way, that's fine. 9 you want to do something that's prettier and still The If 10 interesting, you do the turnpike. 11 to weigh on the side of what impacts people the most, 12 and I would weigh on the polio one, but I'm good with 13 either one. 14 15 CHAIRMAN URAM: So, my -- I'm going Okay, Sam, thank you. Michael? 16 MR. MORAN: Again, we have two things. In 17 this case, I don't need help; it's clearly -- polio is 18 the more important one and that's where I'll choose 19 it. 20 several of those designs that were really innovative 21 on the turnpike side of it. 22 talent in the right direction when we give them the I will also point out, though, that there were Are we directing our www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 137 1 lesser thing, utilizing our talent in the best way? 2 Anyway, I agree with the lady, No. 11. 3 though, that we are into a situation with the opioids 4 and the heroin use -- being from Kentucky, I'm around 5 it all the time -- because I happen to like No. 10. 6 So, I think it's innovative, but I will -- not 10 -- 7 put my glasses on -- 20. 8 CHAIRMAN URAM: 9 I'm sorry, No. 11. Okay, Michael, thank you. Robert? MR. HOGE: 10 I actually like both 8 and 11 11 quite a bit, too. 12 bit flat. 13 than it would be on No. 8, although I like the concept 14 of the magnification of different levels. 15 comfortable with either one of these. I'm afraid that No. 11 might be a It's probably less opportunity for relief 16 CHAIRMAN URAM: 17 MS. SALMON: Thank you. choice for polio. 19 because of its more abstract design. 20 interpreted properly. 22 Robin? I did go with No. 11 as my first 18 21 So, I'd be I also liked No. 8 -- No. 3, And I think it's It has a much broader reach. CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. Appreciate it. Donald? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 138 1 MR. SCARINCI: Thank you, Robin. I mean, No. 2 3 is awesome. 3 would have picked if we were all with the turnpike. 4 And the artist deserves a lot of credit for No. 3. 5 think just to be clear to the artists who are doing 6 this, notice no one's talking about No. 4. 7 really, No. 8, while it's pretty as a picture, isn't 8 really going to make a coin that's very contemporary 9 or interesting. It's an awesome design and it's what I I And, It's just going to make a picture on 10 a coin. 11 medal. 12 are kind of interesting and would make fascinating 13 coins. 14 turnpike coins, and as irresistible as that is, you 15 know, clearly polio, which is more -- I mean, there is 16 no question what's more important, the turnpike or 17 polio? 18 side that polio is more important than the turnpike. 19 Turnpike -- not to minimize the importance of the 20 turnpike, but polio is more important than the 21 turnpike. 22 It's just going to look like a picture on a Graphically, I think 10, you know, 9 and 10 So, it's irresistible to go with some of these And you really kind of have to weigh on the So, if you're looking at the polio coins, my www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 139 1 money is on Ron, that he's going to make 11 into a 2 really pretty coin. 3 coin, and I understand that some people might not see 4 it in the graphics, but that microscope is a shadow, 5 and I think Ron is going to make this into something 6 really cool. It has the elements of a pretty He's not here -- 7 MR. MENNA: 8 MR. SCARINCI: 9 hear. All right. Maybe your chief engraver. Yes, that's what I want to The new chief engraver is going to 10 do a miracle with this coin. 11 coin. 12 MR. MENNA: 13 MR. SCARINCI: It's going to be a great Let me walk that back. I walk that back. It's going 14 to be -- this is going to be a great coin. 15 think this is the coin. 16 great coin. 17 not seeing is -- you're looking at a picture; you're 18 looking at a graphic. 19 dimensional object. 20 polio is more important than the turnpike, you know, 21 obviously for a lot of humans. 22 So, I I think it's going to be a I think it just doesn't -- what you're You're not looking at a threeYou know, and clearly I think the CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Don. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Dean? Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 140 1 DR. KOTLOWSKI: This is going to be a little 2 bit of a mishmash of what everyone said. 3 for No. 11. 4 voted for No. 20, because it has the look and feel of 5 a coin, but again, I'm sensitive to the cultural 6 sensitivity issue, so my vote is for No. 11. 7 not tremendously impressed with No. 8 for reasons that 8 were said. 9 point, and the ones that have the people on these I'm voting But, like Mike, I probably would have I was I do think it is more of a picture on that 10 coins, too, I feel the same way. 11 for a Pennsylvania Turnpike coin, and I won't, I would 12 definitely vote for No. 3, because it's cool. 13 who loves cars, would think that is really cool the 14 way that is. 15 the line here, from the governor's office? If I were to vote My dad, Is our colleague from Pennsylvania on 16 MS. STAFFORD: 17 DR. KOTLOWSKI: Yes, Julia. Yeah, hi. I'm not trying to 18 create any controversy in my first meeting, but I am a 19 native of New York City, and we were always told that 20 Thomas E. Dewey's Thruway was the model for the 21 interstate highway system. 22 there because I'll bet there are other states that And I would throw that in www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 141 1 would kind of claim that they were the innovators of 2 what is today the modern interstate highway system. 3 But, you know, it's just adding, I think, weight to 4 the argument in favor of polio. 5 CHAIRMAN URAM: 6 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Jeanne? I'm fine. Thank you, 7 Mr. Chairman. 8 was so intrigued with -- sorry, folks, No. 4 and No. 9 4A, that this was probably the most fun coin that we When I opened this portfolio, I just 10 could mint. 11 logo on 4A; we have a happy person in a nice old car 12 going through tunnels, which are Pittsburgh-oriented. 13 Beyond the tunnels you see other kinds of landscape. 14 So, I like this very much because of its innovation. 15 I don't remember ever seeing anything quite so much 16 fun in stepping out of the seriousness that we often 17 take in the coinage. 18 sorry, Julia, I know this is your preference for 19 Pennsylvania Turnpike, but we've done so many America 20 the Beautiful coins with turnpikes and so forth that 21 it's almost repetitive. 22 was so intriguing to me, is that it was so innovative, It was retro, it has, you know, turnpike That said, clearly, No. 8, I'm And I think that's why No. 4 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 142 1 so unlike our America the Beautiful quarters. 2 And as for the polio concept, which is hugely 3 important. 4 lives, so I think it's quite nice, but we did a polio 5 dime not too long ago, and I think that although this 6 is a Pennsylvania Innovation, I would -- this is not 7 my preference. It did save lives and it's still saving Thank you. 8 CHAIRMAN URAM: 9 MS. LANNIN: Okay. Mary? Well, Jeanne sort of echoed what 10 my feelings were. 11 designs was No. 3. 12 graphically very cool. 13 Pennsylvania there. 14 look like there was going to be too much texture on 15 it. 16 it got to the polio part of the portfolio, I went back 17 to thinking exactly what Jeanne thought, we've already 18 done this. 19 about in the paper, the Anti-Vax movement and all this 20 kind of controversy swirling around there. 21 me, design No. 3 represented wide open spaces and 22 promise and places to go and families, or My actual favorite of all the I just thought that that was It got the logo of It looked like a tire. It didn't I just thought that was a fabulous design. When And all the stuff that we've been reading www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 And, to Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 143 1 transportation of, you know, products for business, or 2 whatever, and the polio vaccine is not only something 3 that we had already done, essentially, but came with 4 some kind of current negative news where people are 5 choosing erroneously to make unscientific claims about 6 what vaccines can do. 7 it saved so many lives, that was -- that sort of cast 8 a shadow on it for me. 9 Pennsylvania Turnpike school on this one. 10 So, that was more, even though CHAIRMAN URAM: So, I'm sort of with the Thank you. Thank you, Mary. Okay, I'll 11 wrap it up. 12 and being a Rotarian for over 30-some years, and it's 13 Rotary's goal to eliminate polio from the entire 14 world, I'm obviously going to go with the polio 15 vaccine simply because it is a great triumph in 16 medical discovery for Pennsylvania. 17 I just -- Julia Bain (ph) from Pittsburg, The turnpike, and I love the designs. I 18 agree, there are a lot of great design here. 19 to see them back for another series of some sort. 20 thought that they were wonderful, especially the ones 21 that Jeanne and Mary mentioned. 22 liked to have seen, however, is it's too bad they used I'd love I What I would have www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 144 1 the needle and not the inoculation gun. 2 Dr. Hingson's patented inoculation gun, which was 3 really the idea that made mass inoculations possible, 4 that that really would have taken -- our design 5 choices over the needles could have been eliminated 6 had we gone that direction. 7 Had they used So, having not done that and having our chief 8 engraver here tell us that he's going to make No. 11 9 spectacular, I have no doubt in my mind that he will. 10 And then one last thing -- so, I'm going to 11 go with that and I'm pleased, Julia, that Pennsylvania 12 did recognize polio and the accomplishment there. 13 has certainly changed a lot of things, plus all the 14 medical things that came afterwards because of it. It 15 Now, one clarification on the turnpike. The 16 turnpike is good, but it isn't -- Route 40 is the 17 national road. 18 the turnpike. 19 west before the turnpike. 20 were going to talk about this history significance of 21 the turnpike, it really should have been the national 22 road that would have been the first. The original road was Route 40, not So, that's the one that went east to So, the actual -- if we So, I just www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 145 1 wanted to make that clarification. 2 But, Julia, thank you for your time. Do you 3 have anything else that you'd like to add before we 4 vote? 5 MS. BRINJAC: I do not. I wanted to echo 6 that it was a pleasure working with Megan, and I am 7 very excited to see that Delaware design after that 8 robust conversation as well. 9 much. 10 CHAIRMAN URAM: 11 take a moment to vote. 12 go on to New Jersey? 13 MS. STAFFORD: So, thank you all very Super. Okay, if we'd all Okay, April would you like to Yes, sir. First concept for 14 New Jersey. 15 light bulb with a filament that could last 1,200 16 hours, marking the beginning of commercially 17 manufactured lightbulbs, giving people easy control 18 over light in homes, allowing businesses to employ 19 shift workers, and requiring a large power grid 20 creating jobs across the country. 21 22 Thomas Edison and his team developed a New Jersey design 1 depicts an Edison bulb against a backdrop of a cityscape illuminated with www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 146 1 electric lights. 2 Electric Light." 3 The additional inscription is "The New Jersey design 2 features an Edison-style 4 lightbulb with a circular array of buildings oriented 5 outwards as if they were rays of light. 6 arrangement of the cityscape suggests the 7 transformation and modernization of cities made 8 possible by the introduction and development of 9 electric light. 10 This radial Designs 3 and 4 depict an Edison bulb set 11 against a dynamic and energized electrical field. 12 inscription "Perfecting the Filament" describes 13 Edison's innovation that made electrical light 14 commercially viable. New Jersey designs 5 and 5A also depict an 15 16 Edison bulb with the inscription "Perfecting the 17 Filament." 18 representing the research and experimentation that 19 Edison and his team undertook while developing the 20 filament. 21 22 The Design 5 features calculations New Jersey design 6 depicts an Edison bulb held up next to the Statue of Liberty's torch, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 147 1 representing the importance of the lightbulb in 2 American culture. New Jersey design 7 features an Edison bulb 3 4 against an ornate background. And, finally, New Jersey design 8 depicts 5 6 Edison's hand placing the first successful carbonized 7 element on the electric lamp. New Jersey's second concept. 8 9 Prior to World War I, New Jersey was the center of the motion picture 10 industry. 11 Kinetograph and Kinetoscope designed to show movies to 12 a single viewer. 13 developed a projector allowing films to be shown to 14 large audiences. 15 as the Black Maria, but also sent filmmakers around 16 the world. 17 The Edison Company developed the strip Then, based upon other innovations, The team built a movie studio known New Jersey design 9 depicts a stylized Edison 18 Kinetoscope movie projector with motion pictures 19 displayed in an expanding beam of light emanating from 20 the projector. 21 22 Design 10 depicts an early Edison motion picture camera viewed from the side. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 148 1 New Jersey design 11 depicts the Black Maria, 2 the first film production studio built on the grounds 3 of Edison's laboratories. 4 window in the ceiling to let in sunlight, and was 5 built on a turntable depicted here as a roll of 35 6 millimeter film, so it could be rotated towards the 7 sun. New Jersey designs 12 and 13 depict a man 8 9 The studio had a large using a Kinetophone, a version of the Kinetoscope, 10 developed by Edison's team. 11 first device to synchronize moving pictures with 12 sound. 13 of Motion Pictures." The Kinetophone was the The additional inscription is the "Birthplace In design 12, a man is depicted on a movie 14 15 screen in front of an audience, representing the 16 impact of Edison Laboratories on the feature of the 17 American film industry. 18 In design 13, a clapperboard is shown in the 19 foreground, allowing for the synchronization of audio 20 and video. 21 22 New Jersey design 14 depicts the hands of a person inspecting a strip of early motion picture www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 149 1 film. 2 of the coin to view a reflection in the film creating 3 a dynamic interactive effect. 4 The polished film cells will allow the holder And, finally, New Jersey design 15 depicts a 5 projector displaying the image of a woman dancing. 6 Behind the projector a stylized face represent the 7 thought process that went into the development of the 8 movie camera. 9 governor's representatives and information about our 10 11 Over to Megan for feedback from the subject matter actually. MS. SULLIVAN: In the comments from the 12 governor's office, they have two preferred designs, 13 design 7 and design 9. 14 you on the phone? 15 MS. CURETON: 16 MS. SULLIVAN: 17 18 And on the phone, Sara, are Yes, I am. Would you like to introduce yourself and say a few words? MS. CURETON: Sure. I'm Sara Cureton from 19 the New Jersey Historical Commission, and I want to 20 note that the heavy lifting on this project actually 21 was undertaken by a state arts council. 22 representative is on vacation so could not be here. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Their Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 150 1 We identified for them two excellent subject matter 2 experts to provide input. 3 editor of the Thomas Edison Papers, and Tom Ross, who 4 is the superintendent for the National Park Service at 5 the Edison site here in New Jersey. Paul Israel, who is the And I just might add that, yes, indeed, those 6 7 two designs were picked on our end as the two we like 8 best. 9 degree of accuracy and were visually very appealing, We felt that they, first of all, had a high 10 and both told the story of these two representative 11 innovations very well. 12 CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Thank you, April, 13 Megan and Sara. 14 couldn't be here today, but Don Scarinci is, so I will 15 yield and ask him to kick this off. 16 Well, the governor of New Jersey MR. SCARINCI: Well, New Jersey has actually 17 innovated many, many more things than the electric 18 lightbulb, but the electric lightbulb clearly could be 19 considered the single innovation since fire that 20 changed the world. 21 electric lightbulb trumps the motion pictures, because 22 obviously without the electric light there would be no So, I would have to say that the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 151 1 motion pictures. And while motion pictures are cool, 2 some day in the near future, if you've ever worn an 3 oculus, if you've ever used an oculus. 4 aren't going to watch motion pictures anymore, but, 5 but, we will always have lights. 6 absent a clear direction from the governor that says 7 we have to go with motion pictures, I would be 8 inclined to go with the lightbulb as our innovation. Someday people So, I think if And I suppose once you make the decision to 9 10 go with the lightbulb, that's where I'm kind of 11 crumbling, because the art on these is not that 12 exciting to me. 13 else has to say, because I'm kind of hard-pressed to 14 pick one of these designs that I think stands out as 15 an art. 16 of hunky. 17 recommending No. 7? 18 So, I'd love to hear what everybody They're all kind of hokey; they're all kind So, which one -- I mean, I think you're The state is recommending No. 7? MS. CURETON: The state is recommending No. 19 7. If I may, I just might also point out that from 20 our perspective, from a teaching perspective, the 21 motion picture design actually might be a more 22 interesting story, since New Jersey's pivotal www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 152 1 importance in the birth of the motion picture industry 2 is a story that is not well known. 3 MR. SCARINCI: Except we no longer support 4 the motion picture industry in any real way, so what's 5 the point? 6 this leafing about? 7 I'm not understanding it. 8 this lightbulb? 9 What in the design of No. 7, what's all I mean, what's going on in No. 7? Is that a historical thing, Could you explain it? MS. CURETON: And I apologize. I was not in 10 on the discussions. 11 was. 12 discovery. 13 who actually worked directly with the designers on 14 this one? My colleague, Daniel Bursk (ph) It certainly evokes the period of Edison's Do we have -- is anyone there from Mint MS. STAFFORD: 15 Yes. Megan Sullivan, our 16 design manager. 17 the design descriptions to indicate it. 18 think, placing it in a point in time and a decorative 19 element. 20 There's no specific information in MS. SULLIVAN: That's correct. It was, I It was a 21 decorative element from the artist, again, to place it 22 in point in time. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 153 1 2 MS. STAFFORD: period, I believe, correctly. 3 4 5 6 7 It certainly evokes the MR. SCARINCI: to me? Okay. Why don't we come back Let's hear what everyone else has to say. CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay, I'm going to -- thank you, Don, and let Mary go. MS. LANNIN: Okay, I would like to cheerlead 8 for design No. 2, because I think it shows a lot of 9 innovation, Donald, and it's exciting. It's got New 10 Jersey in the biggest possible types that we can do, 11 and it is -- it's world-changing, it's life-changing. 12 You go from eight hours of daylight in the winter to 13 being able to light something 24 hours a day. 14 the design; I think it's interesting. 15 it looks a lightbulb exploding out, like, a scrapbook 16 or stock certificates or -- I just -- it's very, very 17 puzzling to me. 18 the lightbulb designs. 19 I think No. 2 has the ability for some textural work 20 that can be done that I just know that Joe can work 21 his magic on that. 22 a counter, someone is going to pick it up to see what I like Design No. 7, That really was my least favorite of Sorry to have said that. But And that is a coin that if put on www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 154 1 it is. 2 other lightbulbs. 3 I think it could be just a very cool coin. And you can't really say that about any of the There's a lot of negative space and 4 CHAIRMAN URAM: 5 MR. HOGE: Thank you, Mary. Thank you. Robert? I'm exactly with Mary on this. I 6 think No. 2 is actually a spectacular design and I 7 think it would make a marvelous looking coin. 8 to oppose the motion picture thing, partly because my 9 great-great-grandfather built a motion picture machine I have 10 in 1860 while the Kinematoscope, which was on display 11 in the Franklin Institute in Philadelphia. 12 Pennsylvania native. He was a So, lightbulbs for me. 13 CHAIRMAN URAM: 14 MS. SALMON: Okay. Robin? I, too, like No. 2 for all the 15 reasons already cited. 16 can see a lot of great highs and lows there that will, 17 again, as you say, make people want to pick it up and 18 look at it. 19 designs. 20 the design. But I also like 3 and 4. I To me, those are the three exciting And I would also go with the lightbulb as 21 CHAIRMAN URAM: 22 MR. GILL: Sam? Thank you, Robin. Well, I'm certainly supporting the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 155 1 lightbulb, and I like No. 2, and I wish there was a 2 way to incorporate language "The Electric Light" on 3 them. 4 might help. 5 6 7 Not that it doesn't jump out at us, but it MS. LANNIN: Everybody in the room who has never seen a lightbulb raise your hand. MR. GILL: All right. I'm just saying that 8 it might not jump out as clearly without "The Electric 9 Light," because that is what we're really talking 10 about here. 11 CHAIRMAN URAM: 12 MR. GILL: 13 CHAIRMAN URAM: 14 MR. MORAN: Thank you, Sam. Michael? No. 1 looks like the original one. Yeah. I'm with the lightbulb. I'm also 15 with No. 2. 16 is when you stop and think about what the lightbulb 17 did, one of the things in the Chicago World's Fair of 18 1893 that was a major faction was a pyramid of 19 lightbulbs. 20 society and civilization at that point in time, and 21 you can see what it led to. 22 buildings here, all these buildings, their utilization The only thing I want to point out here It was really earth shattering for The way they pictured the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 156 1 had to have the lightbulb to get full utilization. 2 So, I like the symbolism. 3 don't think there's anything close to it. I'm sucked in by it. I 4 CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Michael. Dean? 5 DR. KOTLOWSKI: I vote for the lightbulb. I 6 vote for No. 2. 7 little too busy, but Mary convinced me, and so I would 8 be for that. 9 No. 1 would have been nice, but I don't think we I was a little worried it might be a In terms of a more traditional design, 10 actually need the electric light at the top, and New 11 Jersey is very small. 12 transposed the two, but, no, No. 2 is for me. CHAIRMAN URAM: 13 14 So, I almost would have Thank you. Thank you, Dean. Jeanne? 15 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you, Mr. 16 Chairman. 17 However, I think that Robin has a point that that coin 18 would be outstanding. 19 from the lightbulb would be making a really nice 20 statement of brightness and liveliness. 21 is good, but -- but, that being said, it's very 22 complicated to get all those little buildings in there I agree with my colleagues very much. I rote the fact that the waves www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 No. 2 I think Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 157 1 with all the windows and so forth. 2 simplicity of No. 3 appeals to me more. 3 can be said to No. 5, but I think 3 with Joe's talent 4 could be great. And the same Thank you. CHAIRMAN URAM: 5 I think that the Thank you, Jeanne. I too 6 think the lightbulb, and I felt the same way about No. 7 7. 8 was there, but the No. 2 does for me, I think, what 9 you guys were looking for in the turnpike. It was just -- I couldn't figure out what it all It has 10 that retro feel and that retro look to it, and it's 11 going to be a coin that's going to jump out of the 12 series. 13 will look at the entire series as we observe these, 14 and I think it brings a nice, fresh look and it's 15 clean. 16 comments? 17 So, you know, based on -- don't forget, we So, I'm with No. 2 as well. MR. SCARINCI: Any other So, Tom and Jeanne, maybe, can 18 I ask you, if you -- so, I guess the thinking in No. 2 19 is that the lightbulb lights up the world. 20 the thinking, that these buildings that are coming out 21 of the lightbulb are buildings from all over the 22 world? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Is that Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 158 1 CHAIRMAN URAM: 2 MR. SCARINCI: That's what it looks like. So, and are we better off with 3 that, or if we eliminate some -- if we eliminate this 4 "Perfecting the Filament" in either 3 or 5, and 5 5 looks kind of interesting because it's got this, you 6 know, the formula, it's got the date in there, this 7 1879 date. 8 "Perfecting the Filament" in both of those, is that a 9 cleaner coin? But if you eliminate the language And is 2 a little too hokey? I'm 10 concerned that 2 might be too hokey to have the 11 buildings emanating -- I mean, don't forget this is a 12 little guy. This is a dollar. 13 little guy. This is a little, you know, it's a little 14 guy, and are the buildings going to look too hokey? 15 And maybe it's a question for you, Joe. 16 You know, it's a If it's a choice between the buildings coming 17 out of the lightbulb or, you know, these squiggly 18 lines symbolizing energy, or no squiggly line and 19 instead No. 5, with the formula, and whether we go 20 with 3 or 5, eliminate "Perfecting the Filament," 21 because that doesn't really need to be there at all. 22 MS. STAFFORD: Mr. Scarinci, I'm sorry. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 For Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 159 1 design 3, Megan had some feedback from the subject 2 matter experts that might help the conversation. 3 MR. SCARINCI: Good. Perfect. 4 MS. SULLIVAN: Sure. I just wanted to add, 5 on No. 3, one of the comments we did receive was that 6 the lines in the background made it look like a 7 flickering light, and one of the very important things 8 about the lightbulb was that it was not flickering, 9 like kerosene or a flame, that it was a solid light. 10 So, that was one of their concerns with this design. 11 MR. SCARINCI: Oh, good. So, we can 12 eliminate 3. 13 possibly? 14 without "Perfecting the Filament" versus 2. 15 do you think, Joe? 16 So, then you can be talking about 5, So, we can talk about 5 versus 2. MR. MENNA: So, 5 So, what I think if I wanted to have an 17 easy week I'd pick 5, but I think I'm going to have a 18 more complicated week the various structural 19 challenge, which I realize something that could be 20 very robust even within the size of the dollar coin, 21 and we've been sculpting dollar coins since, well, 22 I've been doing it for 14 years and am very familiar www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 160 1 with the palette, so is the rest of the team. 2 we could do a great job. 3 4 MR. SCARINCI: I think And you think it would make a nice coin? 5 MR. MENNA: I think I do. I think it's 6 challenging, the scale, the windows, obviously. 7 don't mean that in a patronizing way. 8 scale of the windows would be a challenge, but we 9 could denote those in a way where they would be I I think the 10 readable. 11 pull off the building properly, another week (ph) 12 we're going to have dimensions, I think it could be an 13 interesting exercise if successfully sculpted, and I 14 feel fully confident in the team that Ron's assembled 15 that we could do that. 16 17 I think that they would have a -- if we CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you, Joe. anything further? 18 MR. SCARINCI: 19 CHAIRMAN URAM: That's it. Thank you. 20 cast their vote? 21 like to move us to Georgia? 22 Donald, Thank you. MS. STAFFORD: Okay. Would everyone April, would you Yes, sir, absolutely. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 The Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 161 1 state of Georgia has a single concept. In the early 2 1730s, James Oglethorpe established the Trustees' 3 Garden, the first agricultural experimental garden in 4 America. 5 of the Trustees' Garden in the center, a griddled 6 landscape with orange trees lining the walkways -- 7 sorry, a gridded landscape with orange trees lining 8 the walkways. 9 inscription "Trustees' Garden," in a rough edge Georgia design 1 depicts a simplified view And circling the landscape is the 10 typeface reminiscent of printed materials from the 11 1700s. 12 species known to have been cultivated in the garden -- 13 flax, olive, peaches, sassafras, grapes and white 14 mulberry. Surrounding the landscape are six different 15 Georgia design 2 depicts a hand planting 16 seeds and the inscription "Trustees' Garden," from 17 which grows a variety of species representing a 18 variety of plants grown in the garden, and orange tree 19 seedlings, sassafras, grapes, white mulberry, flax, 20 peaches, olive, and a young shoot too small to be 21 identified. 22 Georgia design 3 depicts a halved peach www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 162 1 overlapped by a cotton bud in open bloom, representing 2 two important crops developed in the Trustees' Garden. 3 The 13 stars represent the original 13 colonies. 4 additional inscriptions are "The Trustees' Garden" and 5 "1734," the year the garden was established. The George designs 4 and 5 depict a sling made of 6 7 two sashes -- a cotton sash knotted around a cotton 8 branch, and a silk sash knotted around a mulberry 9 branch. The sling is full of plants harvested from 10 the Trustees' Garden. 11 peaches, grapes and smooth sumac. 12 design 5 also features a stylized version of the 13 Trustees' Garden with rectangular plots lined by 14 orange trees and set by the Savannah River. 15 additional inscription is Trustees' Garden. 16 Jesuit bark, olives, oranges, The background in The And, finally, George design 6 depicts a 17 farmer picking a ripe peach from a tree grown in the 18 Trustees' Garden. 19 freshly picked peaches. 20 Below the tree sits baskets of And here with information on the governor's 21 representatives preferences and our subject matter 22 experts is Megan. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 163 1 MS. SULLIVAN: I have a letter from Governor 2 Kemp listing the top three preferences and some 3 reasons behind those. 4 design 1, as it best demonstrates the innovation 5 behind the garden, and it reflects the importance of 6 agriculture, which is Georgia's oldest and largest 7 industry, and it also highlights the diversity of the 8 Trustees' Garden. The first preferred design is The second choice is design 6, which 9 10 showcases George's nickname as The Peach State, and 11 focuses on the importance of agriculture, but it does 12 not incorporate the Trustees' Garden. 13 14 And the third choice is design 3, because it is well designed and it is symbolically meaningful. 15 I do believe I have a few people on the 16 phone. I believe, Rhonda, are you on the line and, if 17 so, would you like to introduce yourself? 18 her a couple of minutes. 19 able to dial in? 20 MS. BARNES: 21 MS. SULLIVAN: 22 We'll give Luciana or Jackie, were you Hi, this is Rhonda. Hi, Rhonda. Would you like to introduce yourself? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 164 1 MS. BARNES: Yes, this is Rhonda Barnes. I'm 2 with Governor Kemp's office here in Georgia, and have 3 been working with Governor Kemp and transitioning from 4 Governor Deal to Governor Kemp in this process. 5 MS. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Rhonda. And I just 6 want to say Rhonda's been great in helping with that 7 transition, so we have been working with two different 8 governors on this process. 9 10 11 CHAIRMAN URAM: Thank you. Okay, thank you. In looking over the decides, Robert, would you like to start? MR. HOGE: Sure. First of all, I think Nos. 12 4 and 5 descriptions were transposed. 13 these, actually, in spite of the preferences is No. 2. 14 I think you could have a nice looking script relating 15 perhaps to the time period of the foundation of the 16 Trustees' Garden shown there. 17 to me that maybe that little seed in the U of 18 "Trustees" could be a good location for a little mark 19 to sneak in there. 20 attractive designs. 21 little bit too prosaic. 22 looks like it's ready to have an inscription added in My favorite of And, also, it occurred It would be a tiny one. These are I think that No. 5 is probably a With all that empty space, it www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 165 1 there as an engraved name, as an award or something. 2 And the stylized trees along the edge in No. 4, which 3 is described as No. 5 by the ship, probably have less 4 realism than the fruits in the sling at the front. 5 And I don't think we can tell the difference between 6 the silk and the cotton and fabrics of the material, 7 either. 8 kind of like the feel of No. 2. 9 some open space around the inscriptions and it shows At any rate, these are pretty designs. I As I said, it has 10 the principal plants, and having a hand with a seed in 11 there I think is kind of a nice touch. 12 CHAIRMAN URAM: 13 MS. SALMON: Thank you, Robert. Robin? Yeah, they're all beautiful 14 designs. 15 easier to translate into a coin. 16 lot of symbolism that I think would be important to 17 include. 18 like. I like No. 2. I think that it might be the No. 3, though, has a So, once again, I'm torn, but 2 and 3 I 19 CHAIRMAN URAM: 20 MR. GILL: Thank you. I like No. 3. Sam, you're up. I like the 21 symbolism, all of the symbolism. I think it's very 22 pretty and very -- laid out nicely. So, that's my www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 166 1 vote. 2 would be nice, too; so would 1. 2 3 CHAIRMAN URAM: Okay. Michael? Thank you, Sam. MR. MORAN: 4 3 and 2. I'm a little concerned 5 when you look at 3, that the cotton ball is going to 6 look more like a peach pit. 7 can we -- is it going to look like a peach pit? MR. MENNA: 8 9 That concerns me. Joe, I nodded my head in assent as soon as he said that. 10 MR. MORAN: That means I vote for No. 2. 11 CHAIRMAN URAM: 12 MR. SCARINCI: Yes, sir. Donald? Did Georgia need more time to 13 do this? 14 Georgia did invent the cotton gin and -- no, I think 15 it was Georgia, and Wesleyan College was the first 16 college chartered to give degrees to women, 17 innovation, right? 18 guess I'm a little less embarrassed about the 19 lightbulb from New Jersey. I mean, is this all we got? I mean, is this all we got? 20 MR. GILL: 21 CHAIRMAN URAM: 22 something. I mean, because You could have a peanut. Sam, you might be onto Don, is that it or -- www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 167 1 MR. SCARINCI: 2 CHAIRMAN URAM: 3 Just checking. MR. SCARINCI: We got a little fruit and flowers, so, yeah, go for it. 6 CHAIRMAN URAM: 7 you got a follow him, so go ahead. 8 DR. KOTLOWSKI: 9 I may be in a little trouble cutting people off today. 4 5 Yeah, that's it. All right. All right. Dean, Well, I have to say I shared some of the sentiments a little earlier. Maybe we're 10 getting spoiled. 11 becoming sort of a -- I wonder what we're going to do 12 when we get to New York, or something like that. 13 to be parochial here. 14 pretty strongly for 3, and I'm not trying to be funny 15 here, really, until I figured out that that wasn't the 16 peach pit. 17 when you choose, like, titles of your articles or 18 books, or when you're lecturing, if you can't be 19 cleverly clear, and maybe there's something that can 20 be -- there's clear symbolism. 21 coin. 22 We only had one concept and two is I have -- you know what? I'm actually serious. Not I was But I still think That looks like a I mean, it's very traditional. I'm a little worried about No. 6, because if www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 168 1 we get the idea this is the Trustees' Gardens of 1734, 2 the person who might be the hand here that might be 3 picking that, might be an enslaved person, and I 4 wonder if we're on the issue of cultural sensitivity. 5 And then No. 4 and No. 5, I just think are too busy. 6 I was going to vote for No. 3, but I'm going to listen 7 to what people have with -- I might go with No. 2. 8 I'm really -- I think No. 1, I'm hearing a lot of very 9 good stuff today about how we've done a lot of America 10 the beautiful sort of scenery stuff, and I really 11 wonder -- I have to take a look at those coins again - 12 - how well that all works. 13 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 14 DR. KOTLOWSKI: They were pretty. Yeah, okay. All right, I'll 15 take your word for it. 16 history, the ones from the 1930s, the national parks, 17 they were really beautiful, a popular series. I know the stamps collecting 18 CHAIRMAN URAM: 19 MR. MENNA: Jeanne? If I could just follow up on 20 that, if you don't mind? One thing would be the first 21 national -- with America the Beautiful parks and state 22 parks the year before that, and when we wandered in www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 169 1 the territory of collage and things like that, things 2 didn't work so well. 3 that are very well composed and give you a full image, 4 I mean, they tend to work well. 5 sorry about that. But when we had images like this 6 CHAIRMAN URAM: 7 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: So, just, you know, Thank you, Joe. Jeanne? Thank you. I was first 8 struck by No. 1, and I know I have to agree with Dean, 9 another garden thing. But it was quite -- it's quite 10 beautiful. 11 distinguish the peaches and, you know, the little 12 grapes and mulberries and so forth. 13 way this garden, it's kind of like a stamp, so I liked 14 that very much. 15 think, was kind of innovative because the letters 16 became the plants, and that's kind of a nice little 17 touch. 18 lettering with the garden, Trustees' Garden, is not so 19 precise as the rest of the text. 20 very much. It's a beautiful piece, and you could Surrounded by the And I also like No. 2. No. 2, I That's something we haven't seen in the So, I enjoyed that 21 No. 3, I have to agree with my colleagues, 22 that it does look like a pit, but there's two things www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 170 1 that could be done. The flower could be moved to the 2 side, and then you don't have the sense of it being in 3 the center as a pit. 4 could make it a little fluffy, then we wouldn't have a 5 pit thing. 6 was powerful and simple. 7 not going to talk about those. 8 Thank you. If our artists or chief engraver So, I'm going to this design because it CHAIRMAN URAM: 9 10 MS. LANNIN: As far as 4, 5 and 6, I'm Just not as important. Thank you, Jeanne. My favorite was No. 2. Mary? I do 11 like the fact that the plants seem to be growing out 12 of a fairly rustic typeface, and I love dropping the 13 seeds into the letter U, just like it's a little pot 14 to grow. 15 looked like you can see a large variety of crops, and 16 it just reinforced by the word "Garden." 17 and away my favorite. 18 nice things with No. 1, but the simplicity of 2 I 19 liked. 20 which looks like a really disastrous peach pit and 21 that there's something wrong. 22 stars, and all I could think of was, like, a judging And the hand looked good to me on this. It This is far I think that we could do some No. 3, I cannot get past the cotton boll, And then there were 13 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 171 1 thing, awarding something at a state fair. 2 the most perfectly size peach, so it got 13 stars. 3 don't know. But definitely for me No. 2. CHAIRMAN URAM: 4 Thank you, Mary. This was I Thank you. And just, 5 in listening to everyone's conversation, I too think 6 No. 2 is -- can be a nice, clean, crisp design, and I 7 gave points to some of the other ones as well, but I 8 favor design No. 2. 9 So, with that, if everyone would please vote 10 and then why don't we take -- do you need a 15-minute 11 recess or so while you tabulate? 12 okay. Ten minutes? Ten, Okay, we're reconvening and I will call on 13 14 Greg for the tallies for the State Innovation Series. 15 Greg? 16 MR. WEINMAN: We have the scoresheet 17 summaries. 18 comes back on the board. 19 received 3 votes. 20 people voting, so 13 would be a score. It would be 21 50% plus 1, would be 13 at this point. So, No. 1, 3; 22 2 received 1 vote; 3 received 1 vote; 4 received 3 Okay. We'll start with Delaware, as it Okay. Design No. 1 had By the way, I think we have 9 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 172 1 votes; 5 received 25 votes, which is not surprising it 2 was the top vote-getter; 6 received 1; 7 received 2; 3 8, 9 and 10 all received 1; 11 received 2; 12 received 4 0; 13 received 1, and the remainder received 0. 5 design No. 5 would be your recommendation unless by 6 motion otherwise. 7 Pennsylvania? Would you like to move on to 8 CHAIRMAN URAM: 9 MR. WEINMAN: Sure. Okay. Pennsylvania. 10 No. 1 received 3 votes. 11 votes. 12 received 3. Design No. 4A received 3. 13 received 2. 5A received 2. 14 received 0. Design 8 received 4. 15 1. 16 votes, making it the top vote-getter. 17 and 18 and 19 all received 0. 18 vote. 19 So, Design Design No. 2 received 2 Design No. 3 received 11 votes. Design 10 received 1. Design No. 4 Design 5 6 received 2. Design 7 Design 9 received Design 11 received 23 Design 13, 16 Design 20 received 1 Design 21 received 0. Once again, the top voter and your 20 recommendation unless noted otherwise will be design 21 11. 22 Let's move on to New Jersey. New Jersey. Design 1 received 5 votes. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 173 1 Design 2 received 24 votes, which is the top vote- 2 getter and your recommendation unless otherwise, 3 because both 3s received 4, and 4 received 1. 4 received 3. 5 2. 6 And then 15 received 0. 5A, 6, 7, 8 all received 0. The next four received 0. 9 received Design 14 received 3. Moving on to Georgia. Design 1 received 8 votes. 7 5 Design 2 received 8 24, and that would be your recommendation. 9 received 10 votes. Design 4 received 0. Design 3 Design 5 10 received 3, and design 6 received 1. 11 recommendation unless otherwise noted would be design 12 No. 2. CHAIRMAN URAM: 13 Okay. Therefore, your Thank you, Greg. 14 we have, in summary, Delaware, No. 5; Pennsylvania, 15 No. 11; New Jersey, No. 2; and Georgia No. 2. 16 vote totals were very significant apart from the 17 others. 18 them all as a group? So, The Would anyone like to make a motion to accept 19 MR. HOGE: I'll so move. 20 CHAIRMAN URAM: Robert. 21 DR. KOTLOWSKI: I'll second. 22 CHAIRMAN URAM: Second by Dean. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 All those in Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 174 1 favor say aye. 2 objections I should ask, huh? 3 yes on that. 4 No? Seeing none, motion passes. Any I think everybody voted Well, that brings us to the conclusion of our 5 day today in regards to our meeting purpose. 6 to thank everyone for their participation this 7 morning, and even more so this afternoon. 8 you, though, that we are going to have an 9 administrative meeting at 9 a.m. that's been added to I want I will tell 10 the agenda for the directors available and continue 11 some dialogue in regards to what we started this 12 morning. 13 we're here as a group and his schedule was free, or at 14 least he was able to adjust his schedule accordingly. 15 So, with that we will be -- a motion to recess at this 16 time. 17 a.m. for the public meeting. 18 So, I thought that was really good since We are in recess until tomorrow morning at 10 (Meeting adjourned at 3:12 p.m.) 19 20 21 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 175 1 2 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, NATE RIVENESS, the officer before whom the 3 foregoing proceedings were taken, do hereby certify 4 that any witness(es) in the foregoing proceedings, 5 prior to testifying, were duly sworn; that the 6 proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter reduced 7 to typewriting by a qualified transcriptionist; that 8 said digital audio recording of said proceedings are a 9 true and accurate record to the best of my knowledge, 10 skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, 11 related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the 12 action in which this was taken; and, further, that I 13 am not a relative or employee of any counsel or 14 attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor 15 financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of 16 this action. 17 <%14843,Signature%> 18 NATE RIVENESS 19 Notary Public in and for the 20 District of Columbia 21 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 16, 2019 Page 176 1 2 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER I, SANDRA TELLER, do hereby certify that this 3 transcript was prepared from the digital audio 4 recording of the foregoing proceeding, that said 5 transcript is a true and accurate record of the 6 proceedings to the best of my knowledge, skills, and 7 ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, 8 nor employed by any of the parties to the action in 9 which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a 10 relative or employee of any counsel or attorney 11 employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or 12 otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. 13 14 15 <%14826,Signature%> SANDRA TELLER 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 1 1 CITIZEN COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE 2 PUBLIC MEETING 3 Wednesday, April 17, 2019 4 10:00 a.m. - 12:00 p.m. 5 United States Mint 6 7 2nd Floor Conference Room 8 801 9th Street, N.W. 9 Washington, D.C. 20220 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Reported By: Nata Riveness 19 20 21 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 2 1 MR. URAM: Welcome back everyone to the -- 2 our second day meeting here for the Citizens Coinage 3 Advisory Committee. 4 At this time, I’d also to recognize Jovita Carranza, 5 the Treasurer of the United States. 6 for being with us. I call our meeting back to order. 7 MS. CARRANZA: 8 MR. URGAM: 9 Thank you again Thank you, glad to be here. Today the Committee will review the (inaudible)candidate designs for the 2021-2025 10 American Eagle Platinum Eagle Program. 11 begin, are any members of the press in attendance 12 today or on the phone? 13 name please for the record. 14 else? 16 MS. STAFFORD: 18 MR. WEINMAN: 20 Hearing none, anyone To the Mint Staff, any Announcements? 17 19 You need to speak and say your Okay, thank you. 15 Before we No. Do we get numbers in the front of it? MR. URAM: No, I know that Eric’s been down 21 to it in the Dennis State Office. Okay, before we 22 move to our Agenda, the first order of business for www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 3 1 this Committee is the presentation of the United 2 States Mint Public Service Awards, and our Director 3 David Ryder will present these awards to Heidi 4 Wastweet as well as Herman Viola. 5 some encouragement. 6 MR. RYDER: Let’s give them I’m going to start with Heidi, 7 she’s actually coming down right this minute, she’s on 8 her way down to see us, so I’m just going to have to 9 wait a minute. Is she on her way down now? 10 MR. URAM: This is where you -- 11 MS. SULLIVAN: 12 MR. RYDER: Yes, she is. She is. Well yesterday I’m told 13 the meeting went very well and I’m very thankful for 14 everybody here and on the phone for doing another 15 great job for the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee. 16 A lot of designs and interesting things we’ve looked 17 at, but it looks to me like you guys did another 18 outstanding job of picking the right -- the right -- 19 the right material. 20 Does anybody have any questions for me? 21 MR. URAM: 22 No, everybody should just be down at the, you know, after the meeting’s over to pick up www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 4 1 their Silver Proof Sets that come out today. 2 those of you who don’t know, the Silver Proof Sets 3 come out today with the special reversed one cent -- 4 oh, by the way in Pittsburgh, I got all kinds of heat. 5 We’re not to call it the penny, we’re excited to be on 6 the cent. 7 saying penny, so we really have to be careful that 8 we’re still the cent. And George liked to roll over me about MR. RYDER: 9 So, for I was the one who received the 10 biggest trouble. 11 couple of the members who corrected me, one was a 12 teacher. 13 14 I was admonished several times by a MR. URAM: Oh yeah, after they were done with you, they came to me. 15 MR. RYDER: 16 MR. URAM: Oh, so it’s the cent. I think both of us did the same 17 thing, so, but anyhow, there is a reverse proof set 18 tonight, or today at noon time, so -- 19 20 MR. RYDER: office this morning and from my point it’s beautiful. 21 22 I saw someone brought it to my MR. URAM: It was a great presentation, I guess. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 5 1 MR. SCARINCI: So, wait, I just have to add, 2 everyone on the Committee should be sure they’re using 3 the standing order option because you can have a 4 standing order for the proof set that comes to you 5 automatically, and if you don’t know that, for 6 purposes of everyone who’s covering this meeting and 7 listening, you can exercise the standing order option 8 and it comes to you automatically when it’s issued and 9 you don’t have to worry about missing the opportunity 10 to buy it and you can do that for a number of new 11 products. 12 13 And everyone on the Committee should be sure that they’re using the option. 14 MR. URAM: 15 MR. SCARINCI: 16 MR. RYDER: 17 Thank you Don. That’s a commercial. A commercial on behalf of a Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee. 18 MR. SCARINCI: 19 MR. RYDER: That’s right. So, I’m here to hand out two 20 special awards and the first award is going to go to 21 Heidi and what I did with you two, is I asked the 22 staff to give me some very specific comments about www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 6 1 your ability and the job that you guys have done. 2 So, I’m going to read specifically what the 3 U.S. Mint Staff thinks about you guys and it’s very 4 nice. 5 MS. WASTWEET: 6 MR. RYDER: We’re in trouble now. So, Heidi is known as the member 7 that other members prefer to speak first. 8 very quiet, but she speaks with a loud voice and an 9 accurate voice. 10 So, she’s Special expertise in sculpture gives her a 11 precise eye for the detail, something the CCA 12 Committee always needs. 13 wife tells me all the time that I spend too much time 14 on the details, but I think if you get the details 15 right, you’re going to have a good product at the end 16 of the day. 17 So, your eye for detail, my In festive and comprehensive setting 18 knowledge also, of all the products that she’s helped 19 produce over the years, that’s another good quality 20 for an artisan, designer and the things that we all 21 look for in the CCAC Committee, as well as the 22 numismatic community. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 7 1 Respected as a practicing artist has been 2 invaluable -- that to April and her gang is very 3 important, so we appreciate that as well. 4 one -- keen ability to understand and articulate 5 exactly how many elements of line art will change when 6 struck on a coin. And here’s Ron Harrigal here, who heads up our engraving 7 8 department in Philadelphia, has been a Mint employee 9 for thirty-sum years. You make his job a lot easier 10 and all the men and women that participate in Ron’s 11 shop and the designers, that type of ability is 12 invaluable for us because we take your vision and put 13 it on the dyes and ultimately the coins that the U.S. 14 Mint manufacturers and sells around the world, so 15 well-done. 16 So, with her dedication and guidance for the 17 past 8 years, you have consistently moved the Mint and 18 U.S. Coinage towards more creative, artistic design 19 and for that Heidi, we all are very grateful, we 20 appreciate your last 8 years and I’d like you to come 21 up and receive this award on behalf of the United 22 States Mint and my personal thanks for a heck of a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 8 1 good job. 2 MS. WASTWEET: 3 MR. MORAN: 4 MS. WASTWEET: 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Thank you. Thanks, you made me blush. 7 8 I think we need a standing ovation. 5 6 Thank you. MR. RYDER: Do you want to say a couple of words? MS. WASTWEET: MR. RYDER: Sure. Will you hand the microphone, somebody? Don or Patti, I don’t know, do we have one? MR. MORAN: There’s nobody, there’s no press on the line Heidi, you can saw anything you want. MS. WASTWEET: There’s somebody on the line, there’s someone on the line. 16 MR. WEINMAN: 17 MR. URAM: 18 MS. WASTWEET: You are on the transcript. Do you want another picture? Thank you so much. That was 19 very interesting, thank you. I have an embarrassing 20 confession to make. 21 Roger Burdette called me and asked me if I would be 22 interested in joining the CCAC, what is that? Eight and a half years ago when www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 9 1 2 didn’t know what it was. And I don’t know, do I -- what does that 3 entail, what does that mean? 4 did because this has been a huge honor and a pleasure 5 to be part of this Committee. 6 a more intelligent and respectful Committee, no matter 7 what was going on and whenever opinions clashed, which 8 they often do, it was always with respect, both from 9 the Committee and the staff members. 10 And I’m so glad that he I’ve never worked with I’ve been in this industry for 32 years now, 11 and it’s a largely male dominated industry, but here 12 I’ve always been treated with the utmost respect. 13 felt valued, I felt listened to, and I’m so thankful 14 for this opportunity to come and join this group. 15 I And the Committee comes here voluntarily, 16 gives up their own personal time because we believe in 17 the place in our culture for coin and in artistry. 18 And it’s that belief that brings us together 19 and makes us a quality group, so I’m thrilled to hand 20 my baton now to Robin Salmon to take my seat and 21 special thanks to April and Greg, you’re really the 22 backbone behind the scenes, and everyone else on the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 10 1 staff, I just can’t say enough good things. 2 And for Governor Uram, it’s nice to see that 3 doesn’t happen very often, to get that kind of praise. 4 I’m really proud of this organization, thank you. 5 6 MR. URAM: Heidi, would you comment on your medals please? 7 MS. WASTWEET: Yeah, I chose one of the coin 8 talker -- code talker medals, I said coin talker. 9 Just one of my favorite designs that we looked at in 10 the 8 years, it’s got all the elements that we’ve 11 asked for over the years, the composition, the depth 12 and the reality and emotions that we look for. 13 an iconic piece. MR. RYDER: 14 It’s And the top medal if you haven’t 15 seen it, it’s the Alexander Hamilton2o2 Award which is 16 a top Treasury Award that we do have two superior 17 performers, so you are a superior performer. 18 MS. WASTWEET: 19 MR. RYDER: 20 greatly appreciated. 21 applause. 22 MR. VIOLA: Superior performer. But also, an artist that we So, let’s give Heidi a round of So, let me give you a little www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 11 1 insight before we move on to the next award. 2 be done we have a very demanding boss in Secretary 3 Steven Mnuchin. 4 you were big supporters of the CCAC, or you wouldn’t 5 be here, but unfortunately, most of you probably would 6 like to serve continuously as members of the CCAC, but 7 we -- but as the Director of the Mint and the Treasury 8 of the United States, we have a responsibility to the 9 Secretary of the Treasury, who in past Secretaries, So, to And when I first came, I know all of 10 hasn’t taken as much of an active role as Mr. Mnuchin 11 has, Secretary Mnuchin. 12 And he has, believe it or not, I haven’t said 13 this to any of you, but he has embraced the United 14 States Mint. 15 big believer in getting new blood and new people 16 involved in this hobby. 17 He takes this job seriously. He is a He has been very supportive on all of the 18 things that we try to do here. 19 “no”, on many of the things that Jovita and I take to 20 him, and sometimes Rita, if I’m not here, Rita goes 21 and has meetings with him where she gets beat up, and 22 me getting beat up, but Jovita has been a very active He has yet to say, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 12 1 supporter for the CCAC, a big believer in what you all 2 do. 3 So, between Jovita and the Secretary of the 4 Treasury, we have two supporters that really, as I 5 mentioned in our last meeting, are here to help us 6 grow for the future and grow upwardly and for that, 7 the CCAC and the Commissioner of Fine Arts, really 8 make it easy for us to do our jobs. 9 So, with that I’d like to get into Doctor, 10 come on over here, you know, everybody knows the good 11 Doctor. 12 you a little bit. But again, the staff -- I’m going to roast DR. VIOLA: 13 14 MR. RYDER: Go right ahead. The staff has given me five 15 different bullet points that I said I want five choice 16 comments, so as the Curator Emeritus of the 17 Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History, Herman 18 has done an outstanding job and how much higher can 19 you go to be a Curator Emeritus of the Smithsonian 20 Institute, that’s quite an accomplishment, good for 21 you. 22 MR. VIOLA: Thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 13 1 MR. RYDER: He’s especially qualifies in 2 American History and most of our products that we 3 manufacturer here, have some aspect of American 4 History. 5 you’ve done, work and the things that you’ve done to 6 help us create the right designs when it comes to 7 American History, even though we’re only -- the Mint 8 is 227 years old as of a couple of weeks ago. I think it’s a very important job that 9 MR. VIOLA: 10 MR. RYDER: Yeah, you’re youngsters. We’re youngsters comparatively 11 thinking with probably some of the other things that 12 you have worked with in your career. 13 essential in insuring that historical accuracy, 14 critical to coin design, doesn’t get any more 15 important than that and I think as Joe Menna over here 16 said, youngster compared to you and I, he’s a big 17 believer in that concept. 18 Herman has been And maybe some of you don’t know, because he 19 got his start designing action figures like Superman 20 and a number of other things in his office, his new 21 office, his altar, or have posters of all the action 22 figures that he started as a young kid designing www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 14 1 2 himself, so. Historically, Joe’s onboard with what you 3 have been trying to do and so am I. 4 on the history of American Indian, Civil War, and the 5 exploration of the American West, and being a born and 6 raised in Montana and grew up in Idaho, my father 7 always read and passed along to me all the Louis 8 L’Amour books on the American West. 9 I’m a big fan. You’re an expert I’ve got property out there 10 that we go to every summer, so the American West is 11 pretty deep in my heart, so I appreciate the expertise 12 you bring along in that aspect. 13 So, he also contributes greatly to the team, 14 and has a critical depth of knowledge. How much 15 better is it to have knowledge in this seal and have 16 an expert like you helping us day in and day out, so 17 Doctor, I want to thank you. 18 MR. VIOLA: Well thank you. 19 MR. RYDER: For your contribution. You’ve 20 done a heck of a job, we’re going to miss you, but 21 you’re not going to be too far away. 22 MR. VIOLA: That’s for sure. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 15 1 MR. RYDER: Perfect, would you like to -- 2 MR. VIOLA: I took a code talker -- well I 3 just wanted to say that-- 4 MR. WEINMAN: Where’s the microphone? 5 MR. VASQUEZ: It’s on the podium. 6 MR. VIOLA: 7 Oh, there it is it’s right there. Is it it? 8 MALE SPEAKER: 9 MR. VIOLA: Yeah: This is really a very touching 10 moment for me. 11 Heidi, what an honor and privilege it has been to work 12 in this program. First of all, I want to say like 13 As a historian studying coins and medals all 14 through history and suddenly to be part of the process 15 and the other part of the office that for me, at the 16 Smithsonian I’m on a lot of Committees, with some 17 super egos, and I really kind of dreaded what was 18 going to happen when I came here. 19 And this has become a family. I honestly am 20 going to miss all of you. And fortunately, since I 21 live locally, I’m not going to be too far, so I hope I 22 can just continue providing whatever assistance you www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 16 1 need. 2 And the other thing is I wish the American 3 people could understand the thought that goes into the 4 design of their coins. 5 advertise this a little better, to really know that, 6 you know, these are people giving their time, their 7 expertise freely, joyfully, to make sure that we have 8 something that posterity can look back at and say wow, 9 what a great design, what a great program and we’re so I mean somehow you should 10 lucky to have all of these, so thank you again very, 11 very much. 12 MR. VIOLA: 13 MS. WASTWEET: 14 MR. RYDER: 15 16 Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Jovita, would you like to add any comments at all? MS. CARRANZA: Well, thank you for the 17 opportunity. 18 award and they’re very, very humble because I was 19 talking to Doctor Viola, we were talking about Chicago 20 (inaudible),and I just want to congratulate you on 21 this achievement to stand out amongst your peers and 22 to be recognized for your unwavering contributions and The fact that they have received the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 17 1 to be available even in the future speaks to volumes 2 of your character and level of value that this 3 particular community and its work, congratulations, we 4 appreciate it very much. 5 I’ve learned a lot attending just a few 6 meetings, and I can sense the passion, the commitment, 7 the loyalty and the deliberation is very rich and 8 enlightening, so I applaud all your work on the CCA 9 Committee, thank you. 10 MR. RYDER: Alright let’s get on to more. 11 MR. URAM: I really appreciate, and then Heidi 12 and Herman, on behalf of the entire Committee I’d like 13 to extend to you all the best of those intent and 14 wishes that you’d continue on, I’m sure that you will 15 continue to be great ambassadors to the numismatic 16 community and the Committees which you serve and 17 you’re always welcome and we look forward to even 18 seeing more of your friendship, thank you for the kind 19 remarks as well. 20 behalf of the entire Committee. 21 to turn it over to April. 22 And once again congratulations on MS. STAFFORD: At this time I’d like Thank you so much. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 We are Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 18 1 talking about the 2021 to 2025 American Eagle Platinum 2 Proof Coin Program. 3 Platinum Proof Series will reflect the five freedoms 4 enumerated in the First Amendment to the United States 5 Constitution -- that is, Congress shall make no law 6 respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting 7 the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of 8 speech or of the press, or the right of the people 9 peaceably to assemble and to petition the government 10 The 2021 to 2015 American Eagle for redress of grievances. We again asked artists to create designs that 11 12 not only well represent each individual year’s 13 freedom, but that also work together harmoniously 14 across the five-year series. 15 both the CCAC and the CFA in October 2018, and several 16 sets of designs were identified as having artistic 17 merit. 18 These were reviewed by We worked with the respective designers to 19 update their designs based on feedback from both 20 Committees. 21 will also see several individual year candidate 22 designs as we wanted the artist, if they so desired, In addition to these 5-year sets, you www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 19 1 to be able to focus on representing an individual 2 freedom without the constraint of conceiving the 3 designing consideration with the four others in the 4 series. These individual designs were also reviewed 5 6 by the CCAC and CFA in October of 2018. Designs 7 identified as having artistic merit have been brought 8 back for further consideration, most of which have 9 been updated per Committee feedback. Other designs have been brought back in their 10 11 original format as the design resonated well with 12 Committees as presented. Required obverse inscriptions for the 2021 to 13 14 2025 American Eagle Platinum Proof Coins are Liberty, 15 In God we Trust, E pluribus unum and the year of 16 issuance. 17 The reverse design introduced for the 2018 to 18 2020 Platinum Proof Series featuring an American 19 Eagle, will be the same reverse used throughout the 20 2021 to 2025 Series. 21 We’ll begin by discussing Set 1, sorry I apologize. 22 You see that on the screen. The CFA reviewed this material at last www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 20 1 month’s -- their March meeting, and their preference 2 was for Set 2, which you will see in a moment. 3 starting with Candidate design for Set 1. 4 Okay, Set 1 is tied together through its use of 5 flora and the traditional Liberty figure. The first 6 design for 2021 features Liberty holding a candle 7 representing faith. 8 Religion” is included. The inscription “Freedom of The design for 2022 for this set depicts 9 10 Liberty with a flag to represent the Supreme Court’s 11 interpretation of speech to include symbolic 12 expressions such as the display of a flag. 13 inscription “Freedom of Speech” is included. 14 The The design for this set for 2023 portrays 15 Liberty holding a document, symbolic of the press or 16 printed material. 17 Press” is included. The inscription “Freedom of the 18 This set’s 2024 design features two 19 interpretations of Library joined together to 20 represent the right of the people to assemble 21 peaceably. 22 The depictions of Lady Liberty, from the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 21 1 Morgan Dollar and the 2017 American Liberty, examine 2 the 139 years of history between the two depictions 3 and attribute the success they see to the freedom’s 4 guaranteed in our Constitution. 5 “Freedom of Assembly,” is included. The inscription 6 And the design for the set for 2025 depicts 7 Liberty holding an olive branch with five Petitioners 8 creating a pattern in the background. 9 branch reminds us that it is the right of the people The olive 10 to petition to the government for redress of 11 grievances without fear of punishment or reprisal. 12 The inscription “Freedom to Petition” is included. 13 Moving on to Set 2, again this was the 14 Commission of Fine Arts Preference and recommendation. 15 Set 2 uses the lifecycle of the oak tree from seedling 16 to a mighty oak, as a metaphor for our country’s 17 growth as a nation that values freedom. 18 Liberty grows to a thing of strength and 19 beauty from a seed on Bill of Rights. Each of the 20 freedoms enumerated in the First Amendment contributes 21 to the growth and development of the nation. 22 The design for 2021 depicts a seedling and an www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 22 1 accord surrounded by the inscription with “Freedom of 2 Religion, Liberty Grows.” 3 The design for 2022 features a juvenile oak 4 tree framed with the inscription, “With Freedom of 5 Speech Liberty Blossoms.” 6 The design for 2023 portrays the branch of 7 mature oak tree with acorns amid the inscription, 8 “With Freedom of the Press Liberty Bears Fruit.” 9 The design for 2024 showcases several types 10 of oak leaves assembled between the inscription with 11 “The Right to Assemble Liberty spreads.” 12 And the design for 2025 features the mature 13 spreading impressive oak tree between the inscription, 14 “The Right to Petition Liberty Indoors. 15 from it’s strength can live up to 200 years and is a 16 symbol of endurance.” 17 The Oak known Candidate designs that formulate Set 3 18 feature a variety of allegorical figures. Each 19 represents different concepts of Liberty as expressed 20 through the rights enumerated in the First Amendment. 21 2021 shows Liberty in different attitudes or 22 postures of worship, prayer and meditation, suggesting www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 23 1 the diversity of religious practice in America. 2 inscription “Religion” is included. 2022 portrays Liberty engaged in three basic 3 4 modes of speech -- writing, formal speaking, or 5 lecturing and raising one’s voice in the public 6 square. 7 The The inscription “Speech” is included. The design for 2023 shows Liberty visibly 8 engaged in publishing and reading printed materials. 9 The inscription “The Press” is included. 10 2024 features Liberty in different postures 11 of conversation, interaction and association. 12 inscription “Assembly” is included. 13 The The design for 2025 portrays Liberty marching 14 hand in hand. 15 on a large sheet of paper while another holds an olive 16 branch as a symbol of peace. 17 “Petition” is included. 18 One figure displays a petition written The inscription That concludes the sets that were developed. 19 We have seen really focused candidate designs. 20 Designs 1 and 13 takes inspiration from Moses, Jacob, 21 Ezekiel’s religious liberty statue in Philadelphia. 22 The design features a depiction of Lady Liberty and on www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 24 1 her right the young man is the Genius of Faith pulled 2 into the burning torch of region. Design 1 shows Freedom pointing upwards 3 4 declaring religious liberty. Design 1 and 13. Designs 2 and 2A depict Lady Liberty. 5 In 6 Design 2 a butterfly and the inscription “Freedom of 7 Religion,” are included. 8 features the inscription “Liberty is Freedom of 9 Religion.” And in 2A the design Design 11 depicts Lady Liberty in floral 10 11 symbols of various world religions. 12 “Freedom of Religion,” is included. The inscription Design 12 showcases a butterfly and a purpose 13 14 tone flower. 15 reincarnation, resurrection and femininity. 16 inscription “Freedom of Religion,” is included. 17 The butterfly represents the soul, The Designs 15 and 15A feature three sets of 18 hands coming from three different directions clasped 19 in prayer. 20 from which people may come, united by their freedom of 21 religion. 22 included. These hands represent different directions The inscription “Freedom of Religion,” is www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 25 1 2 3 Design 15 and Design 15A has a shadow element behind the hands. And finally, Design for 2023 depicts a figure 4 utilizing an antique book press. 5 “Freedom of the Press,” is included. 6 7 MR. URAM: Thank you April. Any technical questions before we begin our panel discussion? 8 MR. SCARINCI: 9 MR. URAM: 10 The inscription I have a question. Sure, Donald? MR. SCARINCI: What is our time constraint on 11 this program? 12 board with this, and ask for new designs, can we -- do 13 we have time for the first one? 14 with any of the sets, you know, we just want to see 15 the new designs, do we have time for the first -- for 16 the Freedom of Religion? 17 If we were to go back to the drawing MS. STAFFORD: Assuming we don’t go So, we have -- so, the first 18 year for this program is 2021, and typically the Mint 19 works 18 to 24 months out as after designs are 20 identified, that’s where we like to plan to be. 21 would just also echo that we have brought this package 22 to the Committee before seeking input to help shape www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 26 1 how we would possibly provide direction to artists to 2 conquer such huge topics, and important topics. So, really I think the feedback from the 3 4 Committee is the most important thing that we seek. 5 Obviously, it’s a 5-year program, so beyond the first 6 year there is much more flexibility. 7 MR. SCARINCI: 8 MR. URAM: 9 10 considerations. Thank you. Thank you, alright let’s begin our Robert, would you like to start us off this morning? 11 MR. HOGE: Thank you Mr. Chairman. What 12 difficulty here is these are really all lovely 13 designs, it’s hard to select one set above the other 14 one and all the designs are so good, the additional 15 piece would be acceptable too, in my opinion. I don’t feel really all that strongly in 16 17 favor of one set or against one. 18 decision. 19 idea of Set 2, because I like having a theme of growth 20 and development that’s expressed here. 21 22 It’s a difficult I might tend to go along with the CFA’s And the theme of a plant is kind of nice, and I like the idea of the oak. But Set 1 and Set 3 are www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 27 1 so attractive too, it’s really hard to divide it, so 2 I’m really kind of at a loss. I’d like to hear what the rest of the 3 4 Committee members may have to say. 5 MR. URAM: 6 MR. MORAN: Thank you Robert. Michael? Stealth attack there, Tom. We 7 asked at the last meeting that the Mint request the 8 artist that did the tree to expand the theme to all 9 five. 10 I think that that artist did an awesome job of doing just exactly that. I for one, applaud something different in 11 12 terms of a tree as opposed to women in gowns, and I’m 13 very happy with that. 14 them to do and they’ve got the vote and I’m not going 15 to put a 2 to the other, or a 1, and I’m just kind of 16 spear this one with a 3. Quite honestly, I really think I will support 17 18 I think they did what I wanted it. 19 MR. URAM: 20 MS. SALMON: Thank you Michael, Robin? They are all wonderful. I was 21 drawn to Set 2, the tree and the symbolism, the design 22 combination, all of that, it’s just beautiful and the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 28 1 wording I particularly liked. If I have to choose, I’d 2 go with Set 2. 3 MR. URAM: Thank you, Sam? 4 MR. GILL: Well I agree with pretty much 5 everything that’s been said. 6 everything that’s been said for Set 2 is absolutely 7 beautiful, it’s stunning. 8 applied to other coins, not just this one because it’s 9 a -- this is a 5-set and obviously people are going to 10 I think the series could be see these pretty things. 11 12 Actually, with And lastly, I would just say all three are quite beautiful. 13 MR. URAM: Thank you, Doctor Dean? 14 MR. KOTLOWSKI: Thank you Mr. Chairman. I’m 15 very, very strongly partial to Set 2. 16 wonderful message, I think it’s original, I think it’s 17 artistic. 18 beautiful fashion, so I’m going to be voting for Set 19 2, thank you. I think one leads to the other in a 20 MR. URAM: 21 MR. SCARINCI: 22 I think it is a Thank you, Donald? I’m going to make a motion to reject all of the designs and I’m not going to put www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 29 1 anybody on the spot, but you know, I’m not going to 2 put anybody on the spot as to who buys these coins 3 other than me. 4 But I buy these coins and I collect them, and 5 you know I have all of them in the series from the 6 beginning and I have to be really honest with you. 7 saw these designs and I just don’t think I’m going to 8 spend the $1,200 or $1,400 per coin to buy these 9 coins. 10 I mean they don’t speak to me. I They speak to 11 somebody else, maybe but they don’t speak to me. 12 These are you know, images from the past. 13 once again, I mean first of all Set 2, I mean it’s -- 14 I mean they’re very pretty designs. 15 They’re You know, and the artist did a very good job, 16 you know, doing you know, what you know, what we 17 suggested they do and using the tree and you know, 18 certainly the depiction of the Oak tree is a very 19 classic depiction of endurance and you know, and 20 strength and the depiction of you know, of you know, 21 of all of the you know, of all of it is, you know, is 22 very well done, artistically. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 30 1 It just doesn’t you know, if I’m making a 2 purchase decision and I’m going to spend you know, 3 $1,200 on a coin, that’s just not a coin I’m going to 4 spend $1,200 on, to be very honest. And, you know, and you know and in the series 5 6 of five coins, it doesn’t make me feel anything. 7 doesn’t on its face speak to religion, speech, 8 assembly, it just doesn’t speak to the history of 9 these concepts and you know, I feel, and I teach, you 10 know, I teach Constitutional Law to lawyers using re- 11 enactors. 12 It You know, and it’s kind of exciting fun, and 13 you know, these concepts have a lot of depth and 14 meaning, and you know, so there’s a lot going on with 15 these concepts. 16 So, using the plants just doesn’t, just 17 doesn’t capture -- while it’s artistically and 18 technically well-done and the artist should be 19 commended for doing it, it just doesn’t and it 20 certainly doesn’t move me to write a check, right? 21 22 So, as to Set 1, you know here we are, you know, there’s Liberty, I mean, as to Set 1 I mean, you www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 31 1 know, Number 2 just doesn’t work, it’s just way too 2 controversial, the Freedom of Speech thing with the 3 flag in the background, that was a controversial case, 4 to lose a controversial case, you know, I just don’t 5 think you could just go there. 6 You know, the two images of Liberty, this 7 idea of old and new, they’re turning it into a 8 political correctness thing, and that’s just not what 9 anyone was trying to do. 10 So, you know, this concept of religion, you 11 know, women classically dressed holding the candle, I 12 just don’t know what that’s supposed to even, you 13 know, mean. 14 they’re technically well-composed, and the artist 15 certainly did a good job, and you know I think the 16 artist -- I think there’s, you know, there are people 17 who, you know, I respect the fact that there are 18 people who like that and the artist, you know, did a 19 good job rendering classical figures and classical 20 designs of women who are classically dressed. 21 22 I mean, so while they’re pretty and I just think it’s time that we go beyond that and that it’s time that we take the series beyond www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 32 1 that. Not a single one of these coins is going to 2 really stand out and you know, and say I’m a great 3 coin, you know. And I’m an amazing coin, you know, highlight 4 5 me in a presentation, highlight me in your case, put 6 me on your desk and make me sit there for a little 7 while, bring me to a seminar and show me around, you 8 know. 9 are going to speak, you know, to do that emotively. 10 There’s not a single one of these coins that And while they’re all good, technically, and 11 the artist certainly did a good job, you know, am I 12 going to spend $1,100, $1,200 to buy one? 13 not. 14 if there was set that comes closer, you know, I mean 15 here we’re coming closer, I think the artist is 16 getting there. I’m just So, and as to the Third Set, I think the artist 17 I think we’re getting there where we’re now 18 beginning to depict women in more modern -- in a more 19 modern way, so we’re depicting women in a more modern 20 way, but you know, we’ve got to scroll, you know, we 21 can’t -- instead of a computer screen, instead of a 22 computer screen or an iPhone, you know, we’ve got a www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 33 1 quill pen and we’ve got a scroll and we’ve got you 2 know, things that are not something that can be 3 identified with. 4 So, I think while we’re getting there with 5 Set 3, and we’ve got almost, you know, we’ve got 6 almost modern-looking women, you know, we’re almost 7 there, but we’re not there. So, I think 3 has some potential and I’m not 8 9 -- and I think we can get away with three figures on 10 the sides of the pallet that we’re working with for 11 the platinum coin. 12 scroll, the -- maybe just a little more modernizing of 13 the women and what they’re wearing and a little more 14 modernizing of what they’re doing could make 3 work. 3 has potential but again the So, you know, again it’s not a contemporary, 15 16 it’s not a real modernist design, it’s a more you 17 know, it’s more realistic than modernist, but you 18 could get it to work. And then we go with the others in the package 19 20 and you know, to the singles in the package. And you 21 know we’re back to you know, we’re far away from any 22 21st Century depictions of imagery relating to freedom www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 34 1 of religion. 2 And it’s such a rich topic, I mean, you know, 3 I mean the Supreme Court’s given us so much here that 4 we can pick from. 5 to the Greeks and the Romans for this, you know we can 6 reach right into our contemporary society for this, so 7 we can retread it to our era of this, but we’re not, 8 you know, and so anyway, I mean I think the butterfly 9 is pretty. 10 And we don’t really have to go back Hands are difficult to do, the clasping hands 11 is difficult to do, so I’m trying to be positive. 12 Right, but you get my point, I mean I think we could 13 do so much more with this Platinum Series and speak to 14 the 21st Century and make it worth -- and make the 15 coins worth spending $1,200 for, and maybe try to win 16 an award with them. 17 I mean, and we’re not being told what to do 18 by Congress, this is one of those few things -- this 19 is one of those few opportunities that Congress isn’t 20 telling us exactly what to do so that we have the 21 freedom to do what we want to do, and we have the 22 freedom to come up with abstract images, like why not? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 35 1 What would happen if we did that, you know? 2 I mean what would happen if we came up with a 3 coin, you know, with an abstract image here, something 4 like they do in Latvia or Bella Ruse, or Poland, my 5 God, you know, the world would collapse, you know? 6 mean I would love to see these types of coins, these 7 types of series, you know. 8 do those things, you know, to look at what they’re 9 doing in Latvia, you know, and look at the creative 10 I This is the opportunity to things they’re doing. 11 And for us to do it. This is the series to 12 do it, and people, you know, people would shell out, 13 you know, people like me would certainly shell out the 14 money, you know, to get you know, creative things 15 instead of things that if I’m going to spend $1,100, 16 you know, I might as well buy something, you know, 17 from the 19th Century, you know, because that’s what 18 that money is competing with. 19 For $1,900, I’ll by something on a slab from 20 the 19th Century, you know, rather than something from 21 these sets. 22 these. So, anyway, I can’t vote for any of I’m going to just, you know, you can vote it www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 36 1 down if you want but I’m certainly not going to buy 2 any of these. 3 MR. URAM: 4 MR. MENNA: 5 Thank you Don, Jeanne? Mr. Chairman, l could I speak for a second? 6 MR. URAM: 7 MR. MENNA: Certainly. Okay, I would not presume to 8 educate the Committee or contradict any of this as 9 being numbers or pretend that I know more, but in my 10 experience being a classically-trained artist, you 11 know, I just wanted to now talk a little bit about 12 this and Mary talked about this this morning. 13 The classical tradition, as everyone knows, 14 began in the 5th Century Athens, and it’s a grammar 15 form of the proportion and composition that’s very 16 specific and existed in Greek, in Greece, in Rome 17 regarding the Italian Renaissance in neo-classical 18 France dealing with Pre-Raphaelites, and even aspects 19 of modernism in the 20th Century. 20 So, there’s very specific conventions. 21 don’t see those conventions manifested here. 22 like Donald correctly said, women in togas, women www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I I do see Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 37 1 using certain props that allude that to classicism 2 except for the image of the statute which is very 3 specifically a lift from an item that is directly 4 classical and I know the statute because I walk by it 5 every day at lunch. 6 You know, I think these are necessarily 7 modern imagines of the women because at the time in 8 which they were created, the people who created them. 9 The fact that they’re using certain props from the 10 past, I don’t think should disqualify them. Now, yes in ancient, in Renaissance, Italy, 11 12 classical art was garbed in what was then contemporary 13 clothing. 14 they garbed their characters and their figures, their 15 subjects in contemporary clothing, but I just don’t 16 think that, I specifically Set Number 3, is very great 17 contemporary in its execution of form, the stances, 18 the poses, the gestural language of the figures, the 19 diversity of the figures. 20 Pre-Raphaelite artists did the same thing, To me, that couldn’t happen any other time 21 but 2019 or you show it’s supposed to be 2021, 22 whatever. But, you know, the same thing for many of www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 38 1 the other points, so I would -- don’t mean to argue 2 with Donald, I think he’s brilliant, but I just felt 3 that I should say that, and thank you for your time. 4 MR. URAM: 5 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: Thank you Joe, Jeanne? Thank you Mr. Chairman. 6 I agree with everything that was stated however, I do 7 think we have sent the packets back and I think it 8 came back to us refreshed with an interesting idea, 9 and I nearly believe that… I believe that our mint 10 artists, answered everything we asked towards a person 11 (inaudible). 12 (Microphone is dying). Alright, I’m looking at Set Number 2 when we 13 got this back, we have -- I need another mic. 14 maybe dying also, but it’s going on and off. 15 it’s just that I really like, I think it’s very 16 innovative, its ingenious, and it is answering all of 17 what we have asked our mint artists to do in the past, 18 to give us simplicity, to give us innovation, so I 19 applaud this very much. 20 This Anyway, I’m a little on Set Number 3, I think Donald 21 would be more happy with this, however, I think this 22 is sort of ordinary, it does give us some contemporary www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 39 1 imagery, like Joe had commented on, but I think for 2 me, Set Number 2, is what I would like to see in this 3 series. Now, unfortunately, I do not purchase the 4 5 platinum, but I do think in our coinage this makes a 6 neat statement, thank you Mr. Chairman. 7 MR. URAM: 8 MS. LANNIN: 9 Thank you Jeanne, Mary? Like most of the people in the group today, I prefer Set Number 2. And I prefer it 10 for the beautiful execution of the lifecycle of an oak 11 tree, which actually does last more than 200 years and 12 so on the one that was at the winery was there, it was 13 a sapling before Columbus, that was for a really long 14 time. 15 And, but the thing that’s the most important 16 part of this one to me is the word “With”. 17 what pulls everything together. 18 religion, Liberty grows. 19 And that’s With freedom of So, by the use of the word “with” that ties 20 in the entire lifecycle of the oak, that ties 21 everything together. 22 it’s absolutely beautifully done. I think it’s clean. I think My vote will go for www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 40 1 Set Number 2, but I do want to say shout out to the 2 artist for in Set Number 1 for 2024, combining the 3 mint’s, older Liberty with the newer Liberty, I 4 thought that that was a very nice pairing and I wanted 5 to bring that up. 6 And I also do like the modern stances of the 7 Liberty’s in Set Number 3, but my vote will go to Set 8 Number 2, thank you. MR. URAM: 9 Thank you Mary. As the series 10 goes, first of all, a lot of this is what we’ve asked 11 for, this comes back around for us in the reply of 12 this and we’ve asked our artist to be creative and 13 this is a very nice, I think, Robert started it out, 14 exactly, it’s a wonderful portfolio of concepts and 15 designs that can be translated into making even other 16 issues as time goes on. 17 In particular, the butterfly, I think, is a 18 nice touch to promote a point of some sort, and I 19 think that there could be some other, others that are 20 here, but I think overall the artist should be very 21 positive in their -- that this is just a nice 22 portfolio. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 41 1 I, too, lean towards, are going to go with 2 Set Number 2. 3 wheel of life. 4 beginning, the acorn, and you grow, and you mature 5 through different stages of your life and its full 6 circle. 7 It reminds of me of kind of like the You start out with religion, the The only thing I would have done is on the 8 final oak tree is maybe have some leaves at the 9 bottom, simply because not everyone stays on the tree, 10 just like life. 11 growth as human beings, as individuals and I think 12 it’s something that you can look to and imagine the 13 series in your own way in your own life. 14 So, I think this represents our So, I’m going to vote for Set Number 2. Is 15 there any other further questions or Greg, would you 16 like to pass out the ballots? 17 for 10 minutes. 18 (Break 11:04 a.m.) 19 (Resume 11:16 a.m.) 20 MR. URAM: We’ll also be on recess Okay, I’ll ask that we reconvene 21 and at this time I’ll turn it back to Greg for the 22 results in our considerations. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 42 1 MR. WEINMAN: Thank you, good morning. With 2 9 members present this morning, there’s a total of 27 3 potential designs, which means 13 or 9 members that 4 vote? 5 MR. URAM: 6 MR. WEINMAN: Yes. We’re missing 2. We’re missing 2, so 9 members, 7 that would mean. 8 okay. 9 Set 1 design is 2021 received 6 votes, 2022 received 6 So, 14, yeah 14 would be less 1 So, going through the design, the scoring is 10 votes, 2023 received 7 votes, 2024 received -- I’m 11 sorry 7 votes, and moving on to 2024, I’m sorry 12 received 10 votes, 2025 received 6 votes. Moving on to Set 2. 13 Each design in Set 2 for 14 each of the years every one received 24 votes, which 15 will be the high vote here for the group. 16 Moving on to Set 3, of Set 3, 2021 received 4 17 votes, 2022 received 6 votes, 2023 design received 4, 18 the 2024 design received 4, the 2025 design received 19 6. 20 Moving on to the stand along designs, Design 21 Number 1 received 7, Design 02 receives 7, Design 02-A 22 received 3, Design 11 received 6, Design 12 received www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 43 1 8, Design 13 received 6, Design 14 received 0, Design 2 15 received, that’s why Design 14 received 0 is 3 because there is no design 14. 4 Design 15 received 5, Design 15-A received 4, 5 and Design 18-23-01 received 1. 6 the Committee’s recommendation, save a Motion 7 otherwise, would be to recommend the Set 02. MR. URAM: 8 9 With that in mind, Thank you Greg. Any further discussion? MR. SCARINCI: 10 Mr. Chairman, I’m not going to 11 make a motion. 12 instead just not going to buy the thing and I’ll save 13 the money for the next 5 years, you know, hopefully 14 some of you will buy this because I don’t know who 15 else will. 16 17 I am not going to make a motion. MR. URAM: Thank you Don. I am Any other discussion, and may I entertain a motion? 18 MR. HOGE: I so move. 19 MR. URAM: Robert makes a motion to accept 20 and recommend and Mary seconds? 21 signify by saying “Aye”. 22 CHORUS: “Aye”. All those in favor www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 44 1 MR. URAM: Opposed? Any other motions? 2 Thank you. Well I’ll tell you I think we covered a 3 lot of ground over the last couple days and I want to 4 thank everyone for coming out, especially the Mint 5 staff and those who can in from Philadelphia as well. th 6 The next meeting is scheduled for June 18 , 7 so you will be hearing from Betty and the team 8 regarding that. 9 blessed Easter and a great Spring, and look forward to 10 seeing you in the Summer, right? And with that I will entertain a motion to 11 12 I hope you that you all have a adjourn -- Robert? 13 MR. HOGE: 14 MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN: 15 MR. URAM: 16 CHORUS: 18 MR. URAM: 20 I second. All those in favor signify by saying, “Aye”. 17 19 I so move. Aye. Opposed? Meeting adjourned. (Whereupon, at 11:22 a.m. the Meeting was concluded.) 21 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 45 1 2 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, NATE RIVENESS, the officer before whom the 3 foregoing proceedings were taken, do hereby certify 4 that any witness(es) in the foregoing proceedings, 5 prior to testifying, were duly sworn; that the 6 proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter reduced 7 to typewriting by a qualified transcriptionist; that 8 said digital audio recording of said proceedings are a 9 true and accurate record to the best of my knowledge, 10 skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for, 11 related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the 12 action in which this was taken; and, further, that I 13 am not a relative or employee of any counsel or 14 attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor 15 financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of 16 this action. 17 <%14843,Signature%> 18 NATE RIVENESS 19 Notary Public in and for the 20 District of Columbia 21 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 Meeting April 17, 2019 Page 46 1 2 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER I, HELEN VENTURINI, do hereby certify that 3 this transcript was prepared from the digital audio 4 recording of the foregoing proceeding, that said 5 transcript is a true and accurate record of the 6 proceedings to the best of my knowledge, skills, and 7 ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, 8 nor employed by any of the parties to the action in 9 which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a 10 relative or employee of any counsel or attorney 11 employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or 12 otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. 13 14 <%17264,Signature%> 15 HELEN VENTURINI 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376