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Meeting

April 16, 2019

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DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

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UNITED STATES MINT

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CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE

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CCAC PUBLIC MEETING

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DATE:

Tuesday, April 16, 2019

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TIME:

9:37 a.m.

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LOCATION:

801 9th Street NW

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Washington DC 20220

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REPORTED BY:

Nate Riveness, Notary Public

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JOB No.:

3275301

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ATTENDEES
CCAC Members

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Tom Uram, Chairman

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Sam Gill

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Robert Hoge

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Erik Jansen (phone)

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Dean Kotlowski

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Mary Lannin

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Mike Moran

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Robin Salmon

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Donald Scarinci

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Jeanne Stevens-Sollman

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Greg Weinman, Attorney

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Mint Representatives

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Jovita Carranza, US Treasurer

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David Ryder, Director

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Ann Bailey

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Betty Birdsong

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Pam Borer

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Vanessa Franck

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Ron Harrigal

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Joe Menna, Chief Engraver

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April Stafford

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Megan Sullivan

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Roger Vasquez

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Subject Matter Experts

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Rhonda Barnes, Georgia (phone)

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Julia Brinjac, Pennsylvania (phone)

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Sara Cureton, New Jersey (phone)

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Lea Filson, General Society of Mayflower

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Descendants (phone)

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Dava Sobel, Delaware (phone)

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Courtney Stewart, Delaware (phone)

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Herman Viola, Smithsonian

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Bettina Washington, Wampanoag Tribe of Gay Head-

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Aquinnah (phone)

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Other

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Louis Golino, Press

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Brandon Hall, Press

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Serena Rumet (ph), Press

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Greg Weinman, Attorney

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P R O C E E D I N G S

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CHAIRMAN URAM:

Good morning, everyone.

I'd

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like to call this meeting of the Citizens Advisory

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Committee for Tuesday, April 16th to order.

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have the pleasure today of the first order of business

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is the formal swearing in of our newest member, Dr.

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Dean Kotlowski.

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Secretary Mnuchin appointed Dr. Kotlowski for a four-

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year term of the CCAC, as a member specially qualified

And we

And on December 7, 2018, the

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to serve the advisory committee by virtue of

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education, training, work experience, and American

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history.

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director of the United States Mint, Director David

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Ryder.

Dr. Kotlowski will be sworn in by the

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MR. RYDER:

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DR. KOTLOWSKI:

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MR.

RYDER:

First of all, congratulations.
Thank you.

So, Dr. Kotlowski, please raise

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your right hand and repeat after me.

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of office.

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and defend the Constitution of the United States

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against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

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This is the oath

I do solemnly swear that I will support

DR. KOTLOWSKI:

I do solemnly swear that I

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will support and defend the Constitution of the United

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States against all enemies, both foreign and domestic.

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MR. RYDER:

allegiance to the same.

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6

That I will bear true faith and

DR. KOTLOWSKI:

That I will bear true faith

and allegiance to the same.

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MR. RYDER:

That I take this obligation

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freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of

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invasion.

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DR. KOTLOWSKI:

That I take this obligation

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freely without any evasion -- without any mental

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reservation or purpose of invasion.
MR. RYDER:

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That I will faithfully discharge

the duties of the office on which I'm about to enter.
DR. KOTLOWSKI:

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That I will faithfully

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discharge the duties of the office that I'm about to

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enter.

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MR. RYDER:

So, congratulations and welcome

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to the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee.

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of the United States Mint and myself personally,

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congratulations.

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(Applause.)

DR. KOTLOWSKI:

Thank you.

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On behalf

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CHAIRMAN URAM:

Dr. Dean, we invite you to

make a few comments, if you'd like, at this point.

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MR. RYDER:

I should also point out that we

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have Jovita Carranza with us today.

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haven't been paying attention to the news -- Jovita

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doesn't know I'm going to say this --

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MS. CARVANZA:

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MR. RYDER:

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Those of you that

No, I don't, but too late.

-- but Jovita was just appointed

by the President of the United States to be the new

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director of the Small Business Administration.

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served there as deputy director some time ago, and so

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like me, she's doing a second stint at the same

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organization, but I think the president made a very

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good nomination on Jovita, and she's going to be

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serving in the president's cabinet as soon as she's

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confirmed.

She

So, congratulations, Jovita. (Applause.)

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MS. CARRANZA:

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CHAIRMAN URAM:

Dr. Dean?

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DR. KOTLOWSKI:

Well, usually when I have a

Thank you.

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podium like this, I have prepared remarks and I speak

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for either 50 or 75 minutes, but I can speak for 50 or

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75 seconds here to thank Director Ryder.

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It's a

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tremendous pleasure and tremendous honor to join the

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Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee as the

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representative who is a specialist in American

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History.

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collector when I was very, very young -- well, when I

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was a teenager, so I have that background, and I hope

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to be able to bring that knowledge, those memories,

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some of my general understanding of United States

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history to this meeting and all of its endeavors.

I know something about coins.

I was a coin

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thank you again and looking forward to working very

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closely with you over the next four years.

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so much.

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And

Thank you

(Applause.)
CHAIRMAN URAM:

Before we begin, I'd like to

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introduce the members of the committee, and please

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respond "present" when I call your name.

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Kotlowski, whom you just met.

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DR. KOTLOWSKI:

Present.

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CHAIRMAN URAM:

Sam Gill?

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MR. GILL:

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CHAIRMAN URAM:

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MR. HOGE:

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CHAIRMAN URAM: Mary Lannin?

Present.
Robert Hoge?

Present.

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Dr. Dean

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MS. LANNIN:

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CHAIRMAN URAM:

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MR. MORAN:

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CHAIRMAN URAM:

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MS. SALMON:

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CHAIRMAN URAM:

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MR. SCARINCI:

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CHAIRMAN URAM:

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MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

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Present.
Michael Moran?

Present.
Robin Salmon?

Present.
Donald Scarinci?
Present.

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Jeanne Stevens-Sollman?
Present.

Dennis Tucker, are you on the

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phone?

I'm Tom Uram, the chairman, and I just mention

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that Erik Jansen cannot attend today's meeting.

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MR. JANSEN:

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CHAIRMAN URAM:

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MR. JANSEN:

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CHAIRMAN URAM:

I'm here.
Oh, you are, okay.

Present.
All right.

So, that's super,

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and I know you'll stay on as long as you possibly can.

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We're glad to have you with us.

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MR. JANSEN:

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CHAIRMAN URAM:

Thank you.
Today the Citizens Coinage

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Advisory Committee will consider the following items

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during the two-day session.

Today's agenda:

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A

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discussion of letters to the secretary and the minutes

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from our November 14, 2018 meeting; a review of

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candidate designs for the Mayflower 400th Gold Coin

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and Silver Medal Program; a review of candidate

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designs for the 2019 American Innovation $1 Coin

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Program.

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discussion of the $1 innovation program and will

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reconvene tomorrow morning at 10 a.m., when the CCAC

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will review the candidate designs for the 2021 to 2025

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This meeting will recess following the

American eagle platinum proof coin series.

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Before we begin today's proceedings, are

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there members of the press in attendance or on the

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phone?

If you could announce yourselves.

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MR. GOLINO:

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CHAIRMAN URAM:

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MR. HALL:

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Any press?

Louis Golino, Coin Update.
Thank you, Lou.

Brandon Hall, also with Coin

Update.

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CHAIRMAN URAM:

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Okay.

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acknowledge -- pardon me?

Thank you.

Any others?

Finally, for the record, I'd also like to

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MS. WILMET:

Serena Rumet (ph).

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CHAIRMAN URAM:

Rumet, thank you.

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I'd also

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April 16, 2019
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like to acknowledge the following mint staff and those

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participating in our public meeting today.

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all, April Stafford, Chief Office of Design

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Management, April?

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office, Vanessa Franck, Vanessa?

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down there, okay.

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Pam Borer?

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engraver of the United States Mint, chief engraver Joe

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Menna?

And program managers from the

Megan Sullivan?

She'll be here?

Joe?

First of

(Applause.)

There are you are
Thank you, Megan.

Roger Vasquez?

Our 14th

Ron Harrigal, manager,

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design engraving.

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liaison for the CCAC, legislative?

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our counsel for the CCAC, Greg Weinman?

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Greg.

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Jovita Carranza, Treasurer of the United States.

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Thank you for being here with us.

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MS. CARRANZA:

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18

Ronald?

Betty Birdsong, acting
Thank you.

And

Thank you,

And, of course, again, a special welcome to

appreciate it.

Thank you very much.

I

(Applause.)

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Let's begin with the minutes.

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Are there any issues that need to be addressed at this

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time before we begin?

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is to review and approve the minutes and secretary's

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letters from our last public meeting.

Okay.

First item on the agenda

Thank you, Don.

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Okay, thank you for submitting those.

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comments on the documents?

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motion to approve?

Are there any

Hearing none, is there a

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MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

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CHAIRMAN URAM:

I move.

Jeanne.

Second, Mary.

All

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of those in favor say aye?

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-- we'll now turn to April, for the Design and

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Management, to present the portfolio for the Mayflower

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400th anniversary gold and silver medal program.

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11

Thank you.

Are there any

April?
MS. STAFFORD:

Thank you so much.

2020 will

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mark the 400th anniversary of the Mayflower voyage.

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To recognize this anniversary, the secretary of the

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Treasury has authorized the Mint to produce a 1/4-

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ounce 24-karat gold coin, and a 1-ounce silver medal.

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To develop the design portfolio, the Mint worked with

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a panel of subject matter experts who helped identify

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the concepts, as well as the impact that the Mayflower

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voyage had on the pilgrims, the Wampanoag Indians, and

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the history of our country.

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representatives from the Wampanoag Indian tribe, the

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Smithsonian Museum, the National Museum of the

The panel consisted of

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American Indians, the General Society of Mayflower

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Descendants, Plimoth Plantation, which is a living

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history museum, and Plymouth 400, the organization

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overseeing the 400th anniversary commemoration.

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Mint intends to sell the gold coin and silver medal

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individually and paired with a coin to be produced by

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the British Royal Mint.

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Royal Mint and the United States Mint Coins and Medals

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will more fully tell the story of the Mayflower voyage

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The

The pairing of the British

from the beginning.
Carrying a group of people seeking a new way

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12

of life and religious freedom, the Mayflower set sail

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from England to arrive in a new world in late 1620,

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landing in Plymouth, Massachusetts, or Patuxet, as the

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Wampanoag people call the area.

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cultures intersected as the pilgrims endeavored to

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realize the life and vision, the complex history, a

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story that requires a respectful and appropriate

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telling.

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These two distinct

I will share with the committee that we have

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grouped these designs for your consideration by

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concept, because while we will be looking at both gold

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coin obverse and reverse, and silver medal obverse and

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reverse, any of the designs that you consider today

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can be used for any of the four sides that you'll be

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making recommendations for, and the formatting of

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which can be discussed, including the required

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inscriptions of the gold coin.

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Again, I'll just share that we worked with --

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we're very fortunate to work with an incredible team

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of subject matter experts, as I mentioned before, many

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of which will have committed to joining us on the

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phone here today.

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Viola, the curator emeritus with the Smithsonian

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Institution, and thank you, Herman, for being here.

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I'll ask if there is anyone that worked with us on

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development of these candidate designs for the

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Mayflower 400th anniversary on the phone.

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like to identify yourself?

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19
20

And in person we have Dr. Herman

MS. FILSON:

Hello.

Would you

I'm Lea Filson with the

General Society of Mayflower Descendants.
MS. STAFFORD:

21

Thank you for joining us.

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MS. WASHINGTON:

Hello.

Good morning, Lea.

Anyone else?
Good morning.

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Excuse me,

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I'm recovering from a cold.

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Washington.

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for the Wampanoag tribe of Gay Head-Aquinnah.

4

However, I also serve as a member of the Wampanoag 400

5

Committee.

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joining us.

Thank you, Bettina, for

Anyone --

MS. WASHINGTON:

8
9

I am tribal historic preservation officer

MS. STAFFORD:

6

This is Bettina

Excuse me.

One thing I need

to mention, this does not serve as government-to-

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government consultation for the tribe.

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committee, and I'd like to thank the Mint for working

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with the Wampanoag people in the creation of these

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coins.

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CHAIRMAN URAM:

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MS. STAFFORD:

I sit on the

Acknowledged.
Thank you.

It really has been

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our pleasure and we could not have gotten this far

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without you.

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also be joining us for the deliberation of this

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program.

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the commission of the Women's Suffrage Centennial, and

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potentially the United States Mint will be able to

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work with that commission on potentially a medal to

So, obviously, Treasurer Carranza will

She asked me to also share that she sits on

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commemorate that major milestone in American History.

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MS. CARRANZA:

I look forward to it.

Thank

you very much.
MS. STAFFORD:

4

Also, as I mentioned in the

5

administrative session for this committee, the subject

6

matter experts worked with us to develop potential

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pairings.

8

the subject matter experts, but they were possible

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pairings that would work together to tell this very

These are by no means recommendations from

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complex story.

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that packet, and we also have the ability to call that

12

up on the screen, Mr. Chairman, should you wish to

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reference it as we get through the designs.

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Each of the committee members have

Okay, we will start now with our candidate

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designs.

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party from the Mayflower, the first to include a

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family as they approach the shore of the new land in

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late 1620.

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the background.

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The inscriptions include "1620," "2020," and

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"Mayflower."

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Design 1 GC obverse, depicts the landing

The silhouette of the Mayflower is seen in
Two Mayflowers adorn the outer rim.

A companion design, we have 01A, gold coin

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obverse, presents the same composition with a border

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that depicts flora and fauna native to Patuxet, the

3

Wampanoag name for Plymouth, Massachusetts, the area

4

where the Mayflower arrived.

5

"2020," "Liberty," and "Patuxet."

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Here inscriptions are

02 gold coin obverse depicts a Mayflower

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family stepping out of the frame into a new life.

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mother cradles her baby and the father holds his hat

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bracing against the cold and windy weather,

The

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foreshadowing the challenges they will face.

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silhouette of the Mayflower is anchored in the

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background.

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"2020" and "In God We Trust" reinforce their journey

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for religious freedom and a fresh start in a new land.

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The

The inscriptions of "Liberty," "1620,"

Again, a companion design, 02A, a gold coin

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obverse, features the same composition surrounded by

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the local flora and fauna on the border.

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Moving on to design 3, for the gold coin

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obverse, portrays a newly arrived Mayflower family

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standing firmly on land with apprehension about what

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lies ahead, but also with determination to thrive in

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unfamiliar surroundings.

Inscriptions include

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"Liberty," "In God We Trust," and "2020."

2

03A for a silver medal obverse also features

3

the same composition with local flora and fauna around

4

the border, representing the land of the Wampanoag

5

people.

6

Civil Body Politick from the Mayflower Compact," along

7

with "1620" and "2020."
Design 4, formatted for a gold coin obverse,

8
9

Inscriptions here include "Together into a

features a Mayflower family bracing against the cold

10

and windy weather foreshadowing their coming hardships

11

while the Mayflower is anchored in the harbor.

12

local flora and fauna on the border, along with

13

Wampanoag triangle design represent the Wampanoag

14

homeland.

15

Trust," and "2020."

16

The

Inscriptions are "Liberty," "In God We

A companion design, 04A, formatted for a

17

silver medal obverse, depicts the same composition but

18

is formatted as a medal with the inscription

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"Mayflower" arced along the bottom.

20

The next four candidate designs depict

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members of a Wampanoag family aware of the Mayflower's

22

arrival.

The family stands near the shores of their

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Patuxet homeland while the ship sails towards its

2

destination.

3

Design 5, formatted for a gold coin obverse,

4

includes coin obverse inscriptions "Liberty," "In God

5

We Trust," and "2020."

6

Design 5A, formatted for a gold coin reverse

7

includes the additional inscriptions "United States of

8

America," "E Pluribus Unum," and "Ten Dollars."

9

Design 5B, formatted for a silver medal,

10

obverse contains the inscriptions "Mayflower" and

11

"1620 to 2020," and design 5C, formatted for a silver

12

medal reverse incorporates the inscriptions "People of

13

the Dawn," and "1620" and "2020."

14

The next four candidate designs depict a

15

Wampanoag family watching from the border of the

16

design as the Mayflower arrives from foreign shores.

17

A young boy steps on the border, representing the

18

intersection of the Wampanoag people in their Patuxet

19

homeland and the Mayflower passengers.

20

Design 6, formatted for a gold coin obverse,

21

includes the inscriptions "Liberty," "In God We

22

Trust," and "2020."

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Design 6A, formatted for a coin reverse,

2

includes the inscriptions "United States of America,"

3

"E Pluribus Unum," and "Ten Dollars."

4

Design 6B, formatted for a silver medal

5

obverse, features the Mayflower and "1620 to 2020."

6

And design 6C, formatted for a silver medal reverse

7

incorporates the inscription "People of the Dawn,"

8

"Patuxet," and "2020."

9

Design 7, formatted for a gold coin obverse,

10

depicts portraits of a pilgrim man and woman,

11

representing the beginnings of transition from

12

monarchy to democracy.

13

the democratic organization with their resolute

14

expressions focused on a self-determined feature.

15

Included inscriptions are "Liberty," "1620," "2020,"

16

and "In God We Trust."

17

The dual portraits symbolize

Featuring the same composition, design 7A,

18

formatted for a silver medal obverse, utilizes the

19

inscription "1620," "2020," and "Mayflower."

20

Design 8, formatted for a gold coin reverse,

21

depicts the signing of the Mayflower Compact by

22

Mayflower passengers.

Signing before they left the

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ship, the Mayflower Compact contains tenets that would

2

later become the foundation of the US Constitution and

3

other important documents reflecting the core

4

principles of our nation.

5

States of America," "Mayflower Compact," "E Pluribus

6

Unum," and "Ten Dollars."

7

Inscriptions are "United

Design 8A, formatted for silver medal

8

reverse, use the same composition and includes the

9

inscriptions "A Civil Body Politic" and "For the

10

General Good of the Colony," excerpts from the

11

Mayflower Compact.

12

Design 9, formatted for a gold coin reverse,

13

features a pilgrim and a Wampanoag Indian depicted

14

back-to-back in dignified and powerful portraits, a

15

partner in cooperation yet these away from each other

16

with differing visions, agendas and teachers.

17

Inscriptions are "United States of America," "E

18

Pluribus Unum," and "Ten Dollars."

19

Design 9A, formatted for a silver medal

20

reverse, formats the same composition and includes the

21

inscriptions that reference the pilgrim-Wampanoag

22

alliance that was entered into for the common defense

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of both the pilgrims and the Wampanoag Indians.
Design 10, formatted for a gold coin reverse,

3

depicts the intersection of two cultures, Mayflower

4

passengers arrived seeking a new way of life and

5

religious freedom, while the Wampanoag people seek to

6

protect their existing homeland, culture and

7

traditions.

8

America," "E Pluribus Unum," and "Ten Dollars."

9

Inscriptions are "United States of

Design 11, formatted for a silver medal

10

reverse, depicts a Wampanoag man and woman employing a

11

planting technique used to grow several crops that

12

were staples for the Wampanoag people.

13

helped keep the soil healthy, maintaining the

14

resources for annual plantings and successful harvest.

15

The inscription, "Sustainers of Life," recalls not

16

only the sustainable planting technique but the

17

critical skills the Wampanoag people afforded to the

18

pilgrims by teaching them how to successfully plant

19

and harvest this land.

20

"Beans," "Maize" and "Squash" are arced across the

21

bottom border.

22

This method

The additional inscriptions of

Design 12, formatted for a gold coin reverse

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depicts a Wampanoag family during the course of their

2

daily activities.

3

background with the smoke from its central fire rising

4

through an opening in the roof.

5

"United States of America," "E Pluribus Unum," and

6

"Ten Dollars."

A traditional wetu home is in the

Inscriptions are

Design 13, formatted for a silver medal

7
8

reverse, also depicts a Wampanoag family during the

9

course of their daily activities.

A large white pine

10

tree in the background symbolizes the origins of the

11

Wampanoag creation story.

12

the Dawn," and "1620 through 2020."

Inscriptions are "People of

Mr. Chairman, that concludes the candidate

13
14

designs.

15

share the potential pairings as put together.

16

one moment.

17

on the phone, if I could ask you to mute your phones

18

while the discussions are going.

19

If you'd like, perhaps we could briefly
Just

And for those of you who are joining us

Thank you so much.

For our committee members, this is the packet

20

that was shared with you this morning.

I should also

21

note that there were, even up to the final development

22

of this portfolio, there were very important

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observations that our subject matter experts gathered

2

about some of these designs which, once the committee

3

begins talking about them individually, we can share

4

with you.

5

the pilgrim stepping onto the shore meeting the

6

Wampanoag Indian, carried a book in his hand that has

7

a cross on it.

8

ultimately the recommendation was to remove the cross.

9

Also, the "Sustainers of Life" design that depicts a

10

male Native American and female Native American, the

11

figure on the right being the female, it was asked

12

that we go back and make it obviously more clearly a

13

female Native American.

14

with you as we begin talking about them individually.

15

For example, the design that you saw with

There was robust discussion and

Those things we will share

For the potential pairings, you'll see --

16

could I ask you one more time to mute your phones if

17

you're joining us on the phone?

18

hear some conversation.

19

who are joining us on the phone to mute your phone.

20

We can hear your conversations.

21
22

Okay, I believe I

If I could ask those of you

Okay.

So, you'll see at the top the potential
obverses, which are all depictions of the pilgrims

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arriving at Plymouth.

We have the ones where the

2

families are arriving via boat, stepping onto the

3

land.

4

have at the bottom, also, obverses, more close-ups of

5

the pilgrims with the Mayflower in the background.

6

Any of these pilgrims arriving obverses might be

7

paired with the "Sustainers of Life," reverse, for

8

example, or -- next slide.

9

might be paired with the -- next slide -- Mayflower

And at the bottom -- I'm sorry, and you also

The same arrival obverses

10

arrives in Patuxet reverses.

11

that you see here as potential reverses to the

12

pilgrims arriving obverse show the Native American

13

family.

14

cradling the baby; at the bottom we have a young

15

Native American boy stepping onto the border towards

16

the Mayflower.

17

family and the community that was here when the

18

pilgrims arrived.

obverses.

21
22

At the top we have the Native American woman

They all depict the Native American

Next slide.

Again, we have potential Mayflower arrival

19
20

So, all of these designs

Any of those.

Next slide.

Potentially paired with the two worlds
reverse.

Next slide.

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Potential obverses utilizing the Mayflower

2

arrives in Patuxet.

3

Native American family watching the arrival of the

4

Mayflower.

5

two worlds reverse.

6

Again, these designs show the

Potential obverses paired with, again, the

Another option, we go back to the pilgrims

7

arriving, the Mayflower obverses paired potentially

8

with showing the Native American Wampanoag home life

9

as a reverse.

Next slide.

You'll notice we have an obverse on the left

10
11

and a reverse option on the right.

12

potential pairing of the Mayflower arrives in Patuxet

13

with a Native American family watching, paired with

14

the "Sustainers of Life," reverse.

This shows the

Next slide.

15

Mayflower arrives in Patuxet showing the

16

Native American family watching the arrival of the

17

Mayflower paired potentially with a reverse depicting

18

the Mayflower Compact.

19

Next slide.

The "Pilgrims' Portrait" obverse potentially

20

paired with the "Sustainers of Life" reverse.

21

slide.

22

Next

"Pilgrims' Portrait" obverse potentially

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paired with the "Wampanoag Home Life" reverse.

2

slide.

Next

3

Again, the "Pilgrims' Portrait obverse,

4

potentially paired with the "Mayflower Arrives in

5

Patuxet" reverse.

Next slide.

We have the "Mayflower Arrives in Patuxet,"

6
7

showing the Native American family watching the

8

arrival of the Mayflower, potentially obverse, paired

9

with the reverse design showing the two cultures

10

meeting.
Next, we have the "Mayflower Compact"

11
12

obverse, potentially paired with the "Sustainers of

13

Life" reverse.
Next, we have the "Two Worlds" obverse,

14
15

potentially paired with the "Two Cultures" reverse.

16

Mr. Chairman?

17

CHAIRMAN URAM:

18

take our little rest now.

19

you.

20

Thank you, April.

We can

That was a good job, thank

Before we begin our committee discussion, are

21

there any technical questions from the committee about

22

the designs before we begin?

Robert -- I'm sorry,

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Donald?

2

MR. SCARINCI:

It's not a technical question,

3

it's a history question.

4

representatives of the American Indians, or people

5

that can answer history questions?

Is there any -- do we have

6

MR. WEINMAN:

7

MS. STAFFORD:

8

Washington joins us on the phone.

9

the Wampanoag tribe, and so Herman Viola is here to

Is your microphone on, Don?
Yes, we have Bettina
She is a member of

10

answer any questions.

11

from the General Society of Mayflower Descendants.

12

And we also have Lea Filson

MR. SCARINCI:

Oh, wonderful.

I'm wondering,

13

what happened to the Wampanoag Indians after the

14

Mayflower landed?

15
16

MS. STAFFORD:

Bettina, would you like to

answer that?
MS. WASHINGTON:

17

I'll try to the best of my

18

ability.

19

the winter and there was one encounter that wasn't

20

that pleasant (inaudible).

21

pilgrims were pretty much left alone until about the

22

spring, and that's, of course, when (inaudible).

For a while there, obviously, they came in

But for the most part, the

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we -- and I'm going to say we, everyone involved, have

2

a very difficult challenge trying to put this story,

3

or this history, and we want the history to be

4

reflective of what actually happened.

5

Wampanoag perspective, we had all kinds of issues with

6

how this story is presented and that is why we have

7

tried to really sit down and work with this and other

8

committees to try and at least crack an interest to --

9

for folks to be inquisitive of what happened.

From the

And I

10

thank you for your question, because I think that's

11

what we're looking for.

12

that we didn't quite care for and artists worked with

13

us and we're very grateful for that.

14

part, however, the Mayflower or the pilgrims are

15

depicted, we did not feel it was our place to tell

16

their story in direct relation to us.

We're are obviously things

For the most

And one of the things obviously is that one

17
18

of the things that we would like is to take away the

19

beans, maize and squash and maybe replace that with

20

Patuxet.

21

and woman depicting, you know, how they lived, we too,

22

is very important because that's our family life.

That was one of our customs.

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That's what the pilgrims would eventually see

2

(inaudible).

3

There really wasn't too much interaction and

4

then in that April (inaudible).

So, that's where

5

that's coming from, that alliance.

6

CHAIRMAN URAM:

7

MR. SCARINCI:

(Inaudible)

Bettina, thank you very much.
Thank you very much.

Maybe

8

from a history point of view, maybe you could help

9

clarify this a little bit.

So, after the Mayflower

10

arrived, was it disease that spread through the Indian

11

population?

12

population?

13

What exactly happened to the native

MR. VIOLA:

I'll try to answer.

I'm Herman

14

Viola, Museum of the American Indian.

15

very complex.

16

there were Europeans coasting along, meeting with

17

Indian people, and so the tragedy is that they

18

introduced diseases, and so the populations

19

deteriorated very rapidly.

20

you know, the native peoples very much welcomed some

21

of the things that were brought.

22

items, the tools.

The story is

First of all, for about 100 years,

And the reality is that,

I mean, the cultural

So, there was kind of a welcome,

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and the Indians themselves had no idea what was

2

causing the destruction of the population.

3

And, you know, in reality, some of those

4

Indians that the pilgrims first met could speak

5

English, you know, because they had been dealing with

6

seamen.

7

captured and taken to England and then came back.

8

it's really a very complicated story.

Some of the Indians had actually been

9

So,

But as far as our designs go, I think the

10

designs are as well done as could possibly be done and

11

with the knowledge about how little we know.

12

that everyone is trying very hard to make this work

13

very well.

14

would prefer seeing a Wampanoag family looking at the

15

ship and then the reverse showing the pilgrims

16

arriving on shore.

17

carrying supposedly the Bible, I'd rather have it look

18

like the Indian is helping them out of the rowboat

19

onto the shore, like they would have welcomed people

20

as they came ashore.

21

discussion and I'm really curious to see what people

22

are thinking.

I think

My feeling, in looking at these designs, I

And the one with the fellows

So, it's a very difficult

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MR. SCARINCI:

So, the Wampanoag Indians,

2

they never assimilated into the culture of -- that the

3

British brought with them.

4

MR. VIOLA:

Correct.

They didn't really

5

intermarry.

6

very few of them really intermarried.

7

pushed further west and removed.

8

any cultural interaction that way, for the most part.

9
10
11

Traditionally, with our Indian people,

MR. SCARINCI:

They mostly

So, there was not

And at some point, were the

Wampanoag Indians placed in reservations?
MR. VIOLA:

Much later.

You know, there was

12

a lot of conflict in that time period.

13

lot of warfare that went on once the Indians realized

14

that these visitors were up to no good.

15

know, the reservations came later.

16

Wampanoags today.

17

Indians still arounds today, and so that's why I think

18

it's very important that as we put this coinage

19

together, the world, as well as the American people,

20

realize that there was a culture that was here, that

21

was welcoming, and that is still here.

22

There was a

So, but, you

But there are

There are a lot of East Coast

MS. STAFFORD:

And, if I may, that was, I

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believe, some of the takeaways from our many, many

2

interactions with our subject matter experts.

3

I'll ask Bettina, Lea or Herman to confirm, was that

4

going forward in terms of pairing, which designs will

5

ultimately live on the gold coin and silver medal,

6

that it was very important to have a sense of a

7

parity, equality between the designs reflecting what

8

the pilgrims came here for and the Native American

9

communities that called this place home for hundreds

10
11

And

and thousands of years.
We had great discussions with our Native

12

American experts, and certainly they wanted to correct

13

the perspective that has unfortunately gotten wrong so

14

many times about Native American existing only as an

15

ancillary element in the telling of the story of the

16

pilgrims who came to this land, as opposed to in their

17

own right, who lived here, had a form of government,

18

families, etc., which is why you see a lot of designs

19

that show the other side of the coin, so-to-speak.

20

And that includes the sharing of the skills, the

21

reference to the alliance.

22

And, lastly, there was some notice that some

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of the designs do include references to women.

2

was very critical to the Wampanoag tribe, and they'd

3

like to retain that as well.

4

MR. SCARINCI:

That

And, April, you're assuring us

5

that you have vetted this, and that we are not

6

offending anyone's sensibilities that we're depicting

7

these Indians as sustainers of life and as happy

8

people at the arrival of the Mayflower, while just 100

9

years later they were, for all intents and purposes,

10

exterminated?

11
12

MS. FILSON:

Okay, may I say something here?

This is Lea Filson.
MR. SCARINCI:

13

And they're not -- the

14

sensibilities of these people are not offended by

15

these coins?

16
17
18

MS. STAFFORD:
yes.

Okay, I believe Lea Filson,

Lea, would you like to comment?
MS. FILSON:

Yes.

I would like to just speak

19

on behalf of the General Society of Mayflower

20

Descendants as well.

21

and have eight lines to the Mayflower, and we have

22

spent many, many hours discussing and looking at all

I'm a former governor general

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of these coins, and we were just as insistent from our

2

side that the Native American story be told as well.

3

It is a common fact known to all of us who descended

4

from the Mayflower pilgrims that without the Wampanoag

5

tribe, none of us, or none of our families would have

6

survived.

7

that strength be shown on the Wampanoag side and

8

knowledge, and all of the things that they

9

contributed.

10
11

We were very -- it was very important to us

There are a few things, though, that I

do want to point out.
The extermination that you're talking about,

12

and all the horrible, horrible things that happened,

13

happened later in history.

14

that through the writings of William Bradford, as well

15

as the writings of Edward Winslow, both pilgrims who

16

sailed on the Mayflower, through their diaries and

17

books that they wrote, that there was not a huge, huge

18

friendship between the two, but that both the

19

Wampanoags and the pilgrims did what they needed to do

20

to survive.

21

the alliance that is noted on one of the coins, lasted

22

for 54 years.

No one -- I mean, we know

They protected each other, and there was

I believe somebody started to interrupt

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me.

2

MS. STAFFORD:

I think that was Bettina.

3

Bettina, did you want to join in?

4

MS. WASHINGTON:

5

MS. STAFFORD:

6

MS. FILSON:

I'm sorry, I'll wait.
Okay.

Okay.

Well, anyway, the things that

7

are -- we feel it's very important to tell the story,

8

the true Mayflower story as well, because we feel that

9

it's been wrapped up and mixed and pulled in with all

10

of the horrible things that happened later.

11

a pleasant, every day joyful experience during the

12

time of the Mayflower, but what we would like to

13

emphasize is that there was a 54-year alliance that

14

Governor Carver and Massasoit signed and stayed with

15

and remained loyal to.

16

other throughout that period of the colony of

17

Plymouth.

18

It wasn't

And both sides protected each

As far as when the pilgrims did settle in the

19

village that was once called Patuxet, Patuxet had been

20

abandoned for many, many years because of illness that

21

happened probably because of exposure to other people

22

that came earlier.

And so in the discussions, the

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pilgrims ended up settling in Plymouth, and in one of

2

the books of the writings between either Edward

3

Winslow or William Bradford, they write about talking

4

with the Wampanoags about living on this land, and

5

they were told then about the disease that had

6

happened.

7

The last point I'll make is about families.

8

It was very important to both of our sides that

9

families be represented, because this is not only the

10

first time in history that a 54-year peace was written

11

between the two and honored, which was never done

12

again toward the Native Americans, ever, but it also

13

was the very first time that families arrived on the

14

shores of the new world.

15

fishermen and hunters, and people that often would

16

create conflicts and kidnappings, and all of the

17

things that happened.

18

arrived, they arrived as families.

19

about whether or not that's the reason that it

20

happened, because the Wampanoags also had families.

21

They worked together to protect each other and their

22

families.

Always before it had been

But when the Mayflower pilgrims
And we often talk

So, the family pictures were important, I

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2

think, to both sides equally.
MR. SCARINCI:

Well, in all due respect, you

3

know, we're creating a coin that seems to perpetuate a

4

fake version of history, where we're -- there are two

5

groups of people here.

6

subsequently went on to prosper and become American

7

aristocracy, while another group of people went on to

8

live their lives on a reservation.

9

creating a myth that, you know, gee, isn't this great

One group of people

So, and we're

10

and idyllic that we have this new world that we found,

11

and we're creating a bunch of happy people on a coin

12

that's going to be --

13

MS. FILSON:

Well, I'm not sure that I

14

understand how you call the Mayflower story a myth.

15

It depends on whether you're telling the Mayflower

16

story to commemorate the anniversary of the sailing of

17

the Mayflower or whether you're telling the story of

18

which goes many, many years beyond that.

19

the time that Plymouth Colony remained Plymouth

20

Colony, there was peace between the two.

21
22

MS. STAFFORD:

But during

So, if I may, I believe Mr.

Scarinci was going to ask something along the lines --

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I don't want to put words in your mouth, but can we

2

guarantee that these designs won't offend, and I

3

certainly can't guarantee that.

4

want to take the opportunity to underscore is the

5

concerns that you're bringing to the table.

6

appreciate very much the entire team that took on this

7

challenge, started with the view that we not enter

8

into it unless it could be done appropriately and

9

respectfully.

But what I really

I

The idea that it's a difficult topic,

10

it's not necessarily a pretty part of our history, but

11

the fact that it is a milestone and had great impact

12

on how this country was shaped, I don't think can be

13

argued.

14

assemble subject matter experts that could advise us

15

during the concept development, during the design

16

development, and ultimately in making recommendations

17

about which designs should be put in front of this

18

committee.

And so it was very important to us to

19

In addition to Dr. Viola, there -- we also

20

had the help of Ann McMullen, Dr. Ann McMullen, from

21

the National Museum of the American Indian.

22

Initially, we worked with Michele Pecoraro and Kenneth

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Tavares of the Plymouth 400, and also on the executive

2

board of Plymouth 400 you've heard from Lea Filson,

3

former governor general, as well as a representative

4

of the General Society of Mayflower Descendants, and

5

Richard Pickering, deputy executive director of

6

Plymouth Plantation.

7

To further represent Native American

8

interest, specifically, the Wampanoag, which is a

9

local tribe, we had John "Jim" Peters, Jr., a member

10

of the Mashpee Wampanoag, who is executive director of

11

the Massachusetts Commission on Indian Affairs.

12

was instrumental.

13

coordinator at the Cultural Center of the Wampanoag

14

tribe at Gay Head; she is also on the Plymouth 400 as

15

a board member; and she's also been associate director

16

of the Wampanoag indigenous program at Plymouth

17

Plantation.

18

us.

19

a title historic preservation officer.

20

Craddock, councilman of the tribal council for

21

Wampanoag tribe, and also a board member on Plymouth

22

400.

He

Linda Coombs, who is program

Again, Bettina Washington is here with

She's a member of the Wampanoag tribe, as well as
Finally, Steve

And, finally, Troy Currence, who is vice

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president of the language reclamation project.

2

So, the majority -- all of them have been

3

involved -- the vast majority were on each and every

4

call as we developed the themes and the designs.

5

we hope to continue this very line of questioning as

6

recommendations are formulated here by the committee,

7

because the balance and how the designs go together,

8

what they say, the inscriptions, needs to be

9

considered very carefully.

10

CHAIRMAN URAM:

11

MS. LANNIN:

12

April, thank you.

And

Mary?

I have two questions.

Was the

Wampanoag tribe matriarchal or patriarchal?

13

MS. WASHINGTON:

14

MS. LANNIN:

Matriarchal.

Matriarchal, okay.

So, maybe we

15

should consider the art that shows women in an active

16

role rather than passive, okay, because I think that's

17

important.

18

lasted 54 years, you know, Herman, you can tell me, is

19

-- I think a generation is supposed to be 30 years in

20

terms of history, so this compact lasted essentially

21

two generations, which is a really long time, at least

22

in my lifetime.

And the other part about the compact that

So, that's what I need to say.

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CHAIRMAN URAM:

2

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Jeanne?
I just wanted to

3

clarify this for myself is that we should -- you are

4

asking us to look at only the Mayflower events and not

5

the years beyond the compact of the peace, 54 years.

6

If that's our charge, then I think it makes it a

7

little more -- it is easier for us.

8

can look at other events at another time.

9

CHAIRMAN URAM:

And perhaps we

Thank you, Jeanne.

10

and, Don, thank you for your comments.

11

see your hand go up?

12

DR. KOTLOWSKI:

Also,

Dean, did I

I just wanted to make a point

13

here.

14

I'm new to this, but I've done some study, not of

15

tribes at a grass roots level but of Native American

16

policy, and I think there may be a larger question

17

here, and I think it may be one of moment versus

18

momentum.

19

alliance is, you know, a long period of time in our

20

lifetimes, but in terms of the contact between

21

American Indians and European Americans, it might be

22

seen as something more momentary and certainly the

Jeanne, thank you so much.

Again, apologies.

Because I can see the point that a 54-year

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arrival in this particular first contact.

And then

2

I'm looking at a wider momentum.

3

here is focusing not just on the Mayflower and this

4

event and this particular tribe in 1620.

5

that's the subject of the coin, but when people look

6

at the coin, they may come to other kinds of

7

conclusions.

8

there's no way you can guarantee how people are going

9

to do this.

So, what I'm doing

I know

And, April, you were right to say

How would a Native American tribe -- how

10

would the Sioux feel about this when they see this?

11

mean, how many coin collectors are there, to be sure?

12

But I made the distinction between moment and

13

momentum.

14

I

Then you have a wider momentum, and I just

15

scribbled down a few thoughts here of contact,

16

relations, warfare, degree of extermination, conquest,

17

subjugation with the Dawes Act, assimilation,

18

reservation, Indian New Deal, termination, and

19

ultimately the current policy of self-determination

20

without termination.

21

narrative here, and when people look at the coin,

22

they're not necessarily going to see just something

So, I think there's a wider

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terribly specific to 400 years ago, even though that's

2

the intention, and I understand the intention.

3

thought I would raise that.

4

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Thank you, Dean.

I just

And, also,

5

we'll move on here to our discussion, but, Herman,

6

thanks for being here.

7

member of the committee and he continued on, and we

8

really appreciate your services as well as the

9

continuation.

Herman, for the record, was a

Thank you.

10

MS. WASHINGTON:

11

CHAIRMAN URAM:

12

MS. WASHINGTON:

Go ahead.
Could I say something?
Go ahead, Bettina, yes.
I'm the only Wampanoag

13

person on the call who was able to make it.

14

emails from at least two of our committee members and

15

they weren't able to attend.

16

welcome the pilgrims.

17

we did not welcome them, because (inaudible).

18

the pilgrims came to shore, they dug up our corn

19

(inaudible) --

I have

First of all, we did not

They showed up at our door, but

20

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

21

MS. WASHINGTON:

22

CHAIRMAN URAM:

When

I can't hear.

But we did not welcome them.
Okay, thank you.

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MS. WASHINGTON:

We did bond with them.

And,

2

two, we are not extinct, otherwise I would not be on

3

this call.

4

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Very good.

Thank you.

And

5

when we review the designs, I think that you will see

6

that it isn't necessarily -- and I think it's pretty

7

passive, some of the depictions, and I don't think

8

that is totally on the welcoming side.

9

review these, I think when you look at what it

So, when you

10

actually is, I don't think it comes across that way.

11

So, consider that in your designs.

12

the thumbprint underneath, the size of a planchet,

13

because we are reviewing that.

Also, keep in mind

14

So, I'd like all of our members to try and

15

keep your comments to the designs that you like, and

16

try to stay within about a five-minute time frame, if

17

possible.

18

furthest away.

19

Throw you right into this.

20

five-minute part I told you?

21

here, I can tell you that.

22

And, we're going to start with the person
And so, Erik, how about that, okay?

MR. JANSEN:

Did you hear about that
Since you're not right
Go ahead, Erik, thank you.

I think kind of tactically here,

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the first level I go through is, are we going to end

2

up with a single obverse and a single reverse for both

3

issues?

4

me that's the first step in the decision here.

5

are we picking two designs or are we picking four

6

designs, or potentially three, but I think you get my

7

point.

8

much larger invites more detail than the gold as a

9

smaller, potentially the size of a nickel.

And I'm not advocating that, but it seems to
So,

Along that line, the silver palette being so

On the

10

gold, I'm of a mind to potentially include designs

11

that are images incorporating both pilgrims and

12

Wampanoag natives.

13

just for whoever's running the images there, whether

14

that becomes basically utilizing designs 9, 10, where

15

you have designs that have both parties on them for

16

the gold.

17

had.

18

And so whether that becomes -- and

I don't know; that's a thought that I've

And then on the silver, one side pilgrims and

19

the other side Wampanoag natives, I personally am not

20

especially fond of designs 1, 2, 3, 4.

21

5 with whatever version of text we might add is an

22

attractive design.

I think design

I'm sensitive to the last

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statement that was just made, "We did not welcome

2

them."

3

would tend to discount that out of respect.

I'm a bit

4

stuck on design 6 for the very same reason.

There

5

wasn't a welcoming here.

6

two cultures.

I think this image in 5 conveys that, and so I

It was just a collision of

So, I'm down to working with designs 7, 8, 9,

7
8

10, 11 and 12, and from there I fall back to the

9

larger palette of silver, smaller palette on gold, and

10

I'm very interested in other people's comments.

11

think this is a difficult assignment.

12

CHAIRMAN URAM:

13

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I

Thank you.

Thank you, Erik.

Jeanne?

Thank you, Mr.

14

Chairman.

15

that this is a very difficult assignment.

16

applaud the artist who went ahead and took on these

17

designs.

18

to express, and we have four sides to do it, to tell

19

our story.

20

the story will be accepted.

21
22

I have to agree with Erik in many ways,
I have to

I, again, think we have a lot of information

And hopefully in those four sides perhaps

I guess I'm not fully prepared to make a
total decision right now, because there's so many

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designs to look at and they're also complicated.

2

I'm looking at Erik's choices of 9 and 10, I like this

3

very much for the gold side, or the gold story because

4

there's not a whole lot of information on here,

5

although it's quite expressive.

6

Wampanoags did not invite the pilgrims, but they took

7

care of them.

8

could have a little bit more information to have the

9

reverse 11.

When

And the fact that the

And so on the silver side I think we

And I thought that 3A really had the

10

pilgrims coming into this land.

11

of glum and fearful, and maybe they were -- you know,

12

they're leaving England for a specific reason, to

13

escape religious persecution, and now they don't know

14

where they're coming to.

15

portrays the pilgrims with what I would think they're

16

looking at, a little bit fearful, and to be greeted by

17

the Native Americans on their property.

18

these pilgrims contemplating?

19

embrace here, but it's what it is.

20

CHAIRMAN URAM:

21

MR. HOGE:

22

They're looking sort

So, in a sense I think this

Now, what are

Now, I don't see an

Thank you.

Thank you.
Robert?

Thank you, Tom -- Mr. Chairman.

have several observations.

First of all, you know,

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we're having a reemphasis here of a program that was

2

already heavily celebrated 100 years ago in a very

3

nice commemorative half-dollar.

4

out the entire native component, and I think this is

5

where we have a chance to sort of redress at last a

6

partial wrong in earlier coinage programs.

7

would like to advocate for what Donald suggested.

8

These things still do perpetuate a myth.

9

myth of the so-called pilgrims.

But that did leave

But I

This is the

These people were not

10

pilgrims.

11

dictionary.

12

or gain merit.

13

separatists, people who simply did not want to live

14

under the laws of England at that time.

15

first to the Netherlands and decided they couldn't

16

even stand that, which was the most openly free

17

country in Europe at that time for religious

18

dissidents, and so they decided to move to a new world

19

where they, themselves, could have control.

Look up what pilgrims means in the
These are people trying to expiate sins
What we have here is a group of

They moved

20

They moved there, and shortly after the time

21

the Mayflower arrived, you also have the foundation of

22

the nearby Merrymount colony, which, as far as we

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know, had a much friendlier relationship with the

2

native peoples, and the people from Plymouth

3

eradicated that other English colony.

4

some peculiarities here that we might wonder about.

So, there's

Another question I have is with regard to the

5
6

attractive imagery of the "Sustainers of Life."

7

saw that as a proposed type, and I know that the

8

pumpkin and the squash are relatively closely related

9

vegetables.

We

And maybe, Herman, you might be able to

10

address this for us, or some of our other people as

11

consultants.

12

the natives had?

13

plant, long, long before it appears here in a hard

14

image of the 1620 coin.

15

it a squash on the coin, but it clearly is a big, red

16

pumpkin.

17

What kind of plant really was it that
In the pumpkin as an old world

MR. VIOLA:

So, what's going on?

We call

Well, let's face it, native

18

peoples developed a number of plants that transformed

19

the world.

20

MR. HOGE:

21

MR. VIOLA:

22

creations.

Yes.
And so corn is one of their

So, New England native peoples really did

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do a lot of providing sustenance not only to America,

2

but the world all over.

3

Smithsonian and the exhibit seeds have changed, but

4

the seeds really, basically, came from this

5

interaction between the two cultures.

6

definitely one of the plants.

7

MR. HOGE:

8

But you see right above where it

MR. VIOLA:

10

MR. HOGE:

Yeah.
This is what I'm talking about.

11

What are those plants?

12

me.

13

MR. VIOLA:

MR. HOGE:

MR. VIOLA:

That's right.

That's what my

They were brought by the

Europeans.

19
20

They do look like pumpkins, and

point is.

17
18

Those look like pumpkins to

that's probably not native.

15
16

So, corn is

says "squash?"

9

14

We told that story at the

MR. HOGE:

This is the kind if misnomer on

the coin.

21

MR. VIOLA:

22

MR. HOGE:

Yep.
Another myth --

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MS. STAFFORD:

I'm sorry, I was also going to

2

say the consensus of the subject matter experts that

3

this design is to be considered to remove the

4

inscription "Beans, Maize and Squash," and replace it

5

with "People of the Dawn," so that Sustainers of Life

6

could have that double meaning, referencing the

7

planting techniques as well as what they contributed

8

to the folks that arrived here from England.

9

can take your point on that, the shape of that plant,

10
11

And we

and adjust it, if necessary.
MR. HOGE:

That's certainly not

12

inappropriate, but I think even here, to say

13

"Sustainers of Life", "People of the Dawn," this is

14

kind of getting away from the whole idea of what this

15

is a commemorative for.

16

concepts, very expressive, but what do they say about

17

the Mayflower.

18

Dawn," this isn't really talking about the separatist

19

people who arrived, the Brownists, as they were called

20

in the formation of this early colony.

21

kind of wonder.

22

I mean, these are nice

"Sustainers of Life," "People of the

So, I just

The whole idea of the so-called pilgrims, you

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know, we use this over and over.

This is really a

2

complete myth.

3

wouldn't have used themselves, I don't believe.

4

don't think there's a -- Herman can probably help us

5

with this -- a reference for it.

6

people trying to establish a new colony where they

7

would get away from some of the English law of the

8

time period.

This is a terminology which they
I

These were English

Another point is, we're talking about the

9
10

year 1620.

11

settlements in America, the first Dutch settlements,

12

the first French ones, this sort of thing.

13

tend to perpetuate this idea that America descends

14

from the very prolific, admittedly, descendants of the

15

Mayflower, who have had a disproportionate amount of

16

influence, power and, really, significance in all

17

matters of American culture ever since that time

18

period.

19

This is long after the first English

But we

So, this is a weird peculiarity.
And to address this point of families, too,

20

families came as colonists well before the Plymouth

21

Colony.

22

have survived without colonists.

You know, the Jamestown settlement wouldn't
They sent over

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boatloads of women to marry the overabundance of men

2

there.

3

to the Jamestown Colony.

4

brought his wife and daughter, and they lived there

5

from about 1612.

6

kind of mixing up history when we focus so much on the

7

Mayflower.

So, let's face it.

I had an ancestor who came
He went back, came back and

So, this is another thing.

We're

Thank you.

8

CHAIRMAN URAM:

9

MS. LANNIN:

Thank you, Robert.

Mary?

A very complex portfolio.

It's

10

interesting hearing what people are saying about our

11

Hollywood version of the pilgrims being first, and we

12

need to sort of redress that.

13

portfolio, I was trying to look for action, movement,

14

things that would make someone pick something up.

15

even though Erik said he discounted, you know, 1, 2,

16

3, 4, I like the action of a family in No. 1 or 2,

17

coming -- I like the waves, it's coming directly at

18

us.

19

ship and the name that we're trying to commemorate.

20

And pairing that, sort of what the Native Americans

21

saw when they came would be the No. 6, which is where

22

the young son is actually pointing toward the ship as

When I went through the

So,

We still see the Mayflower, which is actually the

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they come, not knowing or wondering if their lives

2

were going to change.

3

some dynamic to it and would be good for the silver

4

medal size rather than the gold.

5

And I felt that that showed

I agree with Erik, that once we get to the

6

smaller palette size, that things are relatively

7

simple in terms of the gold, and I happen to like No.

8

09, for the gold, and paired with No. 10.

9

shows -- it shows tension in both -- on both sides.

10

So, it wasn't simple, it wasn't easy.

11

have to say.

So, that

That's all I

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

12

CHAIRMAN URAM:

13

MR. GILL:

Thank you, Mary.

Sam?

I approach this as an historical

14

event, and not every coin tells a story, and this one

15

is supposed to tell a story.

16

complex.

17

talk about it until we're blue in the face, that's

18

fine.

19

history of the country, and I commemorate, by the way,

20

all the designers, they're beautiful.

21

beautifully done.

22

significant event, I liked the very first one I saw,

And history is very

We can go back and re-litigate it; we can

But this memorializes an important event in the

They're

But because it commemorates a

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which was 1GC0, or 0, obverse, because it has the word

2

"Mayflower" on it, it describes -- it shows hardship,

3

has the two Mayflowers on the coin, and it tells a

4

story.

5

whereas the lady on the obverse was holding a baby,

6

the same goes for 5A as well.

7

watching the people coming, the Mayflower people

8

coming, and they don't know what to expect, and the

9

pilgrims certainly don't know what to expect because

And the reverse, I would go to 05A or 6A, and

10

they'd never been there.

11

suggestion on the coins.

12

The Indians are

So, that would be my

And on the medal, a similar theme.

I liked

13

4A, again, the family here holding the baby and not

14

knowing what to expect, hardship and so forth.

15

then -- and you could tinker with the animals on the

16

outside, the flora and fauna, but I'm fine with it.

17

And then the reverse, I actually liked the picture of

18

the obverse, which is 5B, as the reverse on that

19

medal, or 6B, if that's clear enough.

20

confuse anyone.

And

I hope I didn't

And they would be my suggestions.

21

CHAIRMAN URAM:

22

MS. SALMON:

Thank you, Tim.

Okay, Robin?

Well, I agree with everybody,

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and that's the problem.

2

the gold versus the medal needs, and also Mary's

3

comment about action and Jeanne's comment about

4

telling the story through four sides.

5

I think that's a great opportunity.

This is tough.

Thinking of

I like that and

No. 1 does have the action, although I prefer

6
7

it not to be heading straight on, but that's what it

8

is.

9

No. 1 for the gold is what I was referring to.

No. 7 has a simplicity that I like for the medal.
And

10

showing the People of the Dawn on No. 6C, I liked

11

that, as well as No. 5C.

12

"Sustainers of Life" imagery.

13

this point.

14

But I also liked the
I just don't know at

I wish you hadn't even asked me.

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Well, there are many good

15

designs, so, I mean, I think that it will -- thank you

16

for your comments.

17

No problem.

MR. SCARINCI:

Donald?

The only one I really can't

18

live with is the "Sustainers of Life."

19

that's just too hypocritical for me.

20

I just can't -- I just can't live with that, right?

21

So, no pun intended.

22

So, I mean,
I just can't --

And, look, and, Bob, you're right.

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they were separatists and the myth has been

2

perpetuated.

3

commemorative coins.

4

the history books and over the centuries, you know,

5

convinced generations of people that this event was

6

somehow important and trumped a lot of other things

7

that were much more important than this.

8

generations of people have grown up with the

9

importance of this event, and it is the way it is.

They've successfully gotten two
They've successfully gotten in

So,

10

It's certainly important in England because they've

11

done a very good job of dealing -- throughout history,

12

throughout English history they've done a very good

13

job of dealing with their countercultural element, and

14

they've eliminated their countercultural element very

15

successfully throughout their history, certainly at

16

least up until modern times, and this was one of their

17

countercultural elements that they eliminated by

18

sending it away.

19

But it is what it is.

20

feel about it.

21

and we are here simply to give Congress the best

22

design that we can give.

In this case, they sent it here.
You know, and you know how I

They got Congress to pass this bill

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MR. WEINMAN:

2

congressional bill.

3

Secretary's authority.

Just to clarify, this is not a

This is done under the

4

MR. SCARINCI:

5

CHAIRMAN URAM:

6

MR. SCARINCI:

Okay.

Okay.

All right.

Thank you, Don.
Okay, so, all right.

Well,

7

then, we're going to give the director the best design

8

we can, and that's what we're going to do.

9

what it is.

And it is

And, look, I think the obverse one, I

10

like obverse 1, because I like that little -- I like

11

the boat coming out of the medal, and I like it paired

12

with the indifference of reverse, you know, of the

13

gold reverse in 5A.

14

boat, you know, I mean, I think that's a good pairing

15

for the gold, whether it's a Ten Dollar or a Five

16

Dollar, I don't know.

17

So, the indifference of this

And probably, I could probably live with -- I

18

mean, if we have to do this thing, I mean, I could

19

probably live with the others except for 12 and 13.

20

think 9 and 9A, I'd probably have felt better if the

21

portraits were flipped, you know, to show reality as

22

opposed to the prominence of the Indian, who would

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later be massacred or shipped off to a reservation.

2

But instead of -- it's like I really prefer not to use

3

9 or 9A, because the Indian is prominent and that's

4

just not reality, so that perpetuates a myth.
So, probably other than 9 and 9A, and other

5
6

than 12 and 13, you know, I kind of like the

7

indifference of the Indian in 10.

8

not doing anything here that people don't believe

9

already, so I really don't have anything more to say

10

about this nonsense.

11
12

So, I suppose we're

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Thank you, Donald.

Dean, Dr.

DR. KOTLOWSKI:

I wanted to make just a --

Dean?

13
14

I'm going to keep my comments very, very brief.

15

interesting, this talking about myth, and I just --

16

and the importance of pilgrims and things along those

17

lines.

18

historian here, but I would argue that historians over

19

the years have been professional historians and what

20

we teach in our classes were far more interested in

21

the Puritans than we are in the pilgrims.

22

get at Thanksgiving, and there was a Spencer Tracy

It's

Again, I'll refer to Herman, my fellow

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movie called Plymouth Adventure.

2

of things, but John Winthrop, Massachusetts Bay,

3

that's also been part of our civil discourse in terms

4

of presidents quoting the "City on a Hill."

5

Kennedy did that, Ronald Reagan did it.

6

this kind -- I'm coming at this, to some extent, from

7

a kind of dichotomy.

8

You get those sorts

John F.

So, you have

I think what Sam said is very important.

I

9

think you were leading us in sort of a direction not

10

to do too much with the coins, and I agree with you.

11

I don't think these have to tell the story, certainly

12

not a complete story.

13

some sort of impression that's as good of an

14

impression as we can get, so I have a little bit of a

15

radical proposal here.

16

I think they have to create

I would propose that we use the same obverse

17

for the coin and for the medal, and the one that I

18

like, actually, is No. 9.

19

shows you the combining of two destinies and the

20

implication that there is going to be some kind of

21

separation of these destinies or cultures.

22

they're there and they are together.

Because what 9 does is it

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And then for the reverse, I would go back a

2

few and, believe it or not, I may be the first one to

3

say this -- I think we should do a Mayflower compact,

4

because this is the United States Government that is

5

issuing the coin, and this has been seen by people.

6

And, again, I'm not expert enough to say this, but

7

it's seen as, you know, the idea of representative

8

government.

9

coin; it is represented in the 1920 stamp.

Is it not representative in the 1920
There were

10

three stamps of the signing of the Mayflower compact.

11

So, that's something that is Euro-specific.

12

And then for the reverse of the other coin,

13

whether you want to do the medal or the coin, I would

14

pick something that is Native American-specific.

15

I don't know what you want to do, Don; I can go along

16

with you.

17

of Life," which is No. 11, where we get rid of the

18

pumpkins and change things.

19

maize, squash, the "People of the Dawn," you know, as

20

you said.

21

with what Mary said, suggesting something more

22

matriarchical, I don't know, because when she's -- in

So,

Maybe a revised version of the "Sustainers

And I think that beans,

And also, maybe a little bit more in line

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a way maybe is bowing, and that shows a kind of

2

patriarchy.

3

that.

I don't know what you want to do with

And I'm probably going to be the dissenter

4
5

here on this one, but I want to say something about

6

No. 10.

7

separate thing, but what I think what we're trying to

8

bring up personal experiences in here.

9

seeing in the National Portrait Gallery in London a

The way it is now, I know that this is a very

I remember

10

painting of Queen Victoria handing a Bible to a dark-

11

skinned person either from India or Africa -- it's

12

actually not clear -- and he's bowing to her.

13

that's not, I know, what's happening here, but that's

14

the impression that it's kind of creating in my mind.

15

And if you take the cross off of that, I don't know

16

what you really get.

17

over there, and I get that the Indian is sort of

18

standing erect, and so on and so forth, as a form of

19

resistance.

20

care for that one.

21
22

And

He could be bringing anything

But I may be the only one, but I did not
Thank you.

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Thank you, Dean.

Before we

go to Mike, I'm going to ask Greg to kind of review

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2

our scoring sheet.

Greg?

MR. WEINMAN:

Normally, I would pass them out

3

at this point, but I'm going to make a comment first.

4

This is a complex program.

5

newer members to CCAC, what you're going to receive is

6

not so much a ballot as it is a scoring sheet.

7

tool to help quantify the advice that you give us.

8

other words, you're encouraged to give a score of 1, 2

9

or 3 -- or 0, 1, 2 or 3, to each and every design

First of all, for the

It's a
In

10

that's here, because it shows -- it isn't choosing

11

one, it's helping us quantify what the strength of

12

your support is for any particular design.

13

going to receive two sheets that look identical.

14

is the scoring sheet for silver medal, the other one

15

is scoring sheet for gold coin.

16

design, though, and so what we're asking for you is to

17

score them as it would appear on a gold coin, as it

18

would appear on a silver medal.

19

You're
One

They have the same

Also, we recognize that the inscriptions are

20

complicated in this, and so if you -- in other words,

21

if you're going to score 01 with a certain score, you

22

might want to score the same thing for 01A, and then

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we can theoretically have a conversation later about

2

how the inscriptions should play out, per se.

3

something to think about as I pass these out.

4
5

MS. CARRANZA:

Just

And before you take the score,

I'd like to make a comment.

6

MR. WEINMAN:

7

MS. CARRANZA:

Okay, sure.
I really have benefited from,

8

and everybody's probably knees are knocking because

9

they don't know what I'm going to say.

But I really

10

appreciate everyone's forethought on this in the sense

11

that you not only did your history and you understand

12

the purpose of this coin, but really challenge every

13

one of us here in this room to think very, very hard

14

before we portray anyone's history and gender.

15

Because when -- and I really appreciated your

16

response, Donald, when we said no, it's not a

17

congressional, it's really secretary-director, I see

18

it before this as secretary.

19

And one of the other underlying reasons we go

20

through this process, and one of the reasons we have

21

allowed certain coins to go through is because we rely

22

on our director to say this is going to sell.

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will definitely move the needle on our eroding

2

revenues.

3

other is we need to generate revenues.

4

history that this type of coin, the Mayflower

5

historical coin generates revenues, then that's one of

6

the driving factors.

7

controversial and it's not going to move, then what's

8

the sense of going through this type of artistic value

9

for something that's not going to move the needle?

And so one is telling the story, but the
If there's a

If it's going to be very

10

And so that's another factor that we consider.

11

think, Dr. Kotlowski, that you're unorthodox; I'm

12

unorthodox speaking at this meeting.

13

should point out a couple of factors that really drive

14

our decisions to move forward.

You

But I thought I

15

It's a very complicated thing, and I can

16

understand and appreciate such better experts that

17

have contributed, but sometimes we have to wonder if

18

we speak for everyone out there and what is going to

19

be the reception to this.

20

the Women's Suffrage Centennial coin.

21

members in that commission and do not present

22

renditions to 15 people.

I'm going through that with
There's 15

We're going to try to have

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an exclusive team just to look at it and then put

2

forward to you all.
But I have attended meetings where the tribal

3
4

nations present their policies and their issues and

5

whatnot, and it is a very powerful group and a very

6

emotional group and very intentional, and so you would

7

not want to antagonize anyone or cause any friction by

8

putting out just because it looks good or sounds good.

9

So, I appreciate all the legwork that you are doing,

10

all the thoughts and consternation of making a tough

11

decision.

12

would want to make a decision on this, although I've

13

taken down notes and scratched out some, so that when

14

I look at these proposals, I'll have a more

15

scrutinizing approach to it.

And I'm like you, Robin, I don't know if I

CHAIRMAN URAM:

16

So, thank you.

Thank you, Madam Treasurer,

17

and thanks for the comments and the confidence, also.

18

Thank you.

19

MR. WEINMAN:

I'll pass out the scoresheets.

20

I guess, as always, we ask that you not complete them

21

until everybody has had something to say.

22

them out just as a convenience.

I'm passing

I think this is a

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situation we might give our stakeholders one more

2

opportunity, before everybody scores, to comment.

3
4

CHAIRMAN URAM:

We're going to go to Mike

first.

5

MR. MORAN:

There's something about playing

6

cleanup hitter here, particularly in this.

7

time I went through it, it was a jumbled mess to me.

8

And then I came back to it yesterday and looked at it

9

with a fresh eye and sorted it out a little bit.

10

the way I approached it was both from a thematic

11

standpoint as well as what works on which palette.

12

And, first of all, I felt like thematically we had

13

some things that we could put in here that were very

14

forceful.

15

assigned to which palette, I got nothing but

16

confusion, and I have to hit this one in a negative

17

way.

18

The first

And

But when I started to look at what was

First of all, you look at the gold coin

19

inset, it's a half eagle, $5 gold piece.

It's the

20

size of a nickel, and almost none of these designs

21

work on a nickel.

22

these beautiful faces that get lost.

They're just too complex.

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a pinhead on that nickel.

2

these designs that will even work on a $5 gold piece.

3

So, there are very few of

I fought the Mint for using $10 as a

4

denominator.

5

and a quarter eagle -- I mean, a half eagle is a $5

6

gold piece, but I certainly embrace change if there's

7

a reason for change.

8

$10 denomination on here.

9

It's what it's always been and there's no reason to

Maybe I'm just stuck in my traditions

But there is no reason to put a
We need to go back to $5.

10

change it.

11

confusion with the committee going forward.

12

But I think that maybe cause some

So, that being said, and going back to the

13

thematic side, to me, 1 and 1A are ideal for the

14

silver medal.

15

that says is change is coming.

16

here they come.

17

but they're there, and it's coming right at you.

18

through that window, they're going to break right

19

through that window into the native culture.

20

me, that is forceful and it tells a story, and it

21

somewhat dovetails with what we talked about and

22

struggled with here today.

The palette is big enough, and what
I mean, it's forceful,

Sure, there's a lot of uncertainty,

And, to

It's kind of like I'm

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reminded in "Game of Thrones Winter is Coming."

2

this case yeah, it did.

3

It's fine what Donald said.

In

I turn around

4

and say, well, that's on one side.

5

is obverse and which is reverse here; what's going to

6

change?

7

matriarchal.

8

background.

9

there, but to me that shows what was there before the

And it's 13.

I don't care which

That shows their culture, it's

There's their spirit tree in the
I'm not sure I used the right terminology

10

pilgrims arrived, and this is what they're coming

11

into, and that boat is crashing through.

12

that told a story on the silver medal.

13

And to me

Then I went, what in the hell am I going to

14

do with the gold coin?

15

you can't put that Mayflower compact on a gold coin.

16

You almost can't put it on a silver coin.

17

8.

18

cultures, or you can do 7.

19

to do a partial torso on a $5 gold piece.

20

are, in spite of the fact it says 10 there.

That's No.

But you can do 9, and that is a mixing of the two

21
22

Because Chris has too many --

But you're going to have
You just

I do like the fact that E Pluribus Unum, for
one, many.

Unfortunately, if you're Native American

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you might not like the one that turned out, but,

2

anyway.

3

problem is, almost none that works on the reverse

4

because they're too busy.

5

don't know what I'll do for the gold coin reverse.

6

But either one of those works, 7 or 9.

The

And that's my problem.

I

You know, you get the little boy pointing

7

there's a ship coming; my personal opinion is, if we

8

saw a spaceship land with alien creatures, we're not

9

going to be pointing, we're going to be getting the

10

hell out of Dodge, and I'm not so sure but what they

11

didn't do the same, and then peak around from bushes

12

to look at what in the world this thing with sails

13

was.

14

reverse, but I'm not about to try and tell you all

15

what to do there.

16

possibly, and I promise I'm about to shut up -- no, I

17

don't like any of them.

20

I'll do something on the

It's what I think should be done,

CHAIRMAN URAM:

18
19

So, I'm at a loss.

Thank you, Mike.

Jeanne, go

ahead.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

If I can add just one

21

comment to 11, "Sustainers of Life."

22

discussing pumpkins and squash and so forth.

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Gardeners often plant beans, maize and pumpkins and

2

squash, whatever, together, and it's called the three

3

sisters.

4

be able to help me with this.

5

squash and pumpkins came from the Southwest

6

territories because they were dried and they moved

7

through trade to the Northeast colonies or tribes.

8

So, to me, these little round things are neither

9

pumpkins, squash or gourds; they're all the same.

Pumpkins actually -- and, Herman, you might
But I believe the

If

10

you are gardening, you'll find that they just develop

11

differently.

12

Potter thing that they can live into and make beer

13

from, you know, very watery, but squash is drier and

14

can be sustained through a winter and a summer.

15

think that squash, if we left it there, is an

16

appropriate title.

17

And the pumpkins, you know, are a Harry

So, I

Thank you.

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Thank you, Jeanne.

Well,

18

first, I want to thank the entire committee for --

19

Herman, did you want to say something?

20

MR. VIOLA:

I mean, you're correct, that the

21

three sisters are just synonymous with New England

22

Indian people, and so it really fits perfectly.

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believe the discussion has been quite fruitful and I'm

2

quite pleased with it.

3

what Mike had to say, frankly.

4

that the obverse should show native people, and then

5

it's the reverse showing the newcomers arriving.

6

so there are a number of ones that really would work

7

very nicely here.

8

families, that the native people that were here

9

certainly didn't welcome, but they were surprised and

10

interested, and you know, you can have a little child

11

looking from behind the father's legs or something,

12

and who are these people?

13

ships before.

14

Atlantic Coast for about 100 years, so it wasn't like

15

a spaceship; it was just, is it going to land here or

16

come here?

17

I kind of stick with -- I like
And my own feeling is

And

But it's important to show the

But, frankly, they had seen

Ships had been going up and down the

That's basically the difference.
So, I do think we have some very good designs

18

to work with, and I think the important thing here is

19

that this happened, it's got to be recorded,

20

documented, and I'm hoping, then, that there will be

21

some literature that arises out of the coins, and that

22

will have a better way of bringing this into the

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classroom education-wise and tell the complete story.

2

And for most Indian people, it's not a great story,

3

but today they're very proud and they're becoming

4

resurgent, and I think they'll be welcoming that the

5

American people are looking at this and telling a good

6

story about it.

CHAIRMAN URAM:

7
8
9

Thank you.
Thank you very much, Herman.

And Mary?
MS. LANNIN:

I just have a couple more things

10

to say about No. 1.

11

squash off.

12

subject matter experts because, for them, "People of

13

the Dawn," and the identity of the Wampanoag tribe

14

that was here, representing that community, in balance

15

with "Sustainers of Life," which at once refers to the

16

beans, maize and squash and the planting technique,

17

but also the fact that it was very much the thing that

18

sustained the pilgrims here by teaching that to them.

19

We are taking beans, maize and

That was the recommendation of the

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Okay.

Because as I

20

understand the three sisters from a nutritional, you

21

know, culinary point of view, is that those three

22

items in combination provide all the amino acids and

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vitamins a human being needs to live.

2

actually very sophisticated.

3

sophisticated diet in terms of maintaining health than

4

the people on the ship that were coming in.

5

shows them as very powerful and sort of masters of the

6

world and very sophisticated.

So, I don't object to

7

having beans, maize and corn.

We may actually be

8

teaching somebody something about that, that it's

9

perfect amino acids for humans.

10

CHAIRMAN URAM:

11

MR. HOGE:

And so it's

So, they have a far more

So, this

So, that's it.

Thank you.

Robert?

Can I make one additional

12

observation, a little bit tongue-in-cheek.

13

look at No. 1 and No. 1A design here, shows a pioneer

14

who certainly would not have survived without the

15

assistance of the Wampanoags.

16

up in a little tiny tub of a boat, ready to capsize

17

with his family.

18

is probably an impossibility or extremely stupid.

19

This is a guy -- I mean, polling, you have to do it at

20

the back, if anyone's ever seen a gondolier.

21

guy, he couldn't survive very long at all.

22

But if you

Here's a guy standing

He's polling from the front, which

So, this

Also, notice that these so-called squash,

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really pumpkins, in the "Sustainers of Life," these

2

have already been cut, so they're not really growing

3

or living; they're ready to become jack-o-lanterns.

4

Thank you.

5

CHAIRMAN URAM:

I'm going to just wrap up

6

and, Rob, what you said reminded me, when I started in

7

the financial world when I was 23 years old, I was in

8

an attorney's office, was smoke-filled, and he says,

9

"Young man, I want to tell you I'm a man of decision,

10

and I've decided not to decide."

11

when you said that, I'm thinking, okay, that could be.

12

So, that's kind of,

But I want to thank all the artists, also.

13

We have some wonderful renderings and so forth, and I

14

think Sam mentioned, and a number mentioned of telling

15

the story about this event, about the history.

16

do like 1 and 1A, but now that Robert kind of squashed

17

that, I have to rethink.

18

family is definitely relevant in the description and

19

caption, so I'm going to be looking at that as I look

20

forward on that in No. 5 as well.

And I

I think the importance of

21

But when you look at No. 10, and a couple of

22

these designs, and I'm just going to make a comment on

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this.

2

of the things is I like the motion and I think Mary

3

brought it up, the motion of the boat, the motion of

4

the story.

5

new world, essentially, and some of the other designs

6

and depictions have this same movement that I think

7

brings forward the sternness and the person crossing

8

that line sort of coming into the new world.

9

make my decision, I'm going to be looking at some of

10
11
12

And if you don't have the cross on there, one

The idea of this person stepping into the

So, as I

those movements and stories behind what might be.
So, I want to thank everyone for the time
that we have spent on this, and Greg?

13

MR. WEINMAN:

14

CHAIRMAN URAM:

We have the two stakeholders -Oh, Lea and Bettina, would

15

you like to make a general, final comment, short

16

general comment?

17

MS. WASHINGTON:

Well, I want to thank the

18

committee for taking on this difficult task.

19

want to say that when it comes to our history, our

20

Wampanoag history, we should be telling the story.

21

So, I hope you have listened to our words.

22

appreciate the fact that you will think about everyone

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will look at this coin.

2
3

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Thank you.

Thank you very

much.

4

MS. WASHINGTON:

And thinking about history.

5

I have an issue with you cutting me of, so what I

6

think I'm going to do, I'm going to call for a

7

government-to-government consultation with you.

8

will be sending you a letter asking for that, and that

9

way we can make sure you understand.

10

MS. STAFFORD:

And I

Bettina, I'm sorry, we're

11

having trouble hearing you and I think the chairman

12

wasn’t sure if you were finished.

13

he's trying to cut you off.
MS. WASHINGTON:

14

I don't believe

That's all right.

I'm going

15

to call for a government-to-government consultation

16

with you through our tribal government.

17

receiving a letter and that way I can be sure that you

18

understand our concerns.

19

much for your time and your effort.

20

CHAIRMAN URAM:
Lea?

So, you'll be

I want to thank everybody so
Thank you.

Thank you for your comments

21

as well.

Are you still there?

Okay, well, once

22

again, thanks everyone on the phone as well.

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MR. WEINMAN:

For those of you who are newer

2

to the CCAC, I wanted to mention one more thing about

3

the scoring sheet.

4

"Merit" on it.

5

program, they're evaluated each year, and so even if

6

this is -- you may think this is not the right coin

7

design for this particular program, if you think the

8

design had merit, it's valuable to us to give you an

9

opportunity to express as such.

You'll see a button that says

That's because the artists in our

So, that's why that

10

button is there for you to use it, if you'd like.

11

Also, is Erik -- do you have a scoresheet and do you

12

have an ability to email it, or do you need to

13

verbally tell us what your scores are?
MR. JANSEN:

14
15

I have it and I just opened it,

and I can mark it up and I'll send it back to you.

16

MR. WEINMAN:

17

CHAIRMAN URAM:

18

MR. WEINMAN:

19

MR. JANSEN:

20

Thank you, Erik.
Did Dennis --

Vanessa did a good job, thank

you.

21
22

Wonderful.

MR. WEINMAN:
ever?

Did Dennis come to the phone

No, apparently not.

Thank you.

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CHAIRMAN URAM:

2

MS. LANNIN:

Mary?

I just have one more question.

3

For those of us who thought No. 1 and No. 1A were

4

dynamic designs, and trying to keep this gentleman

5

alive with the pole in the wrong place, is there

6

anything that we could do to that design, because I

7

really like the boat coming at us, that could modify

8

the vulnerability of tipping over, I guess?

9

question.

10

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Thank you, Mary.

Just a

We'll take

11

that under -- depending on how the vote comes, then we

12

can go from there on that.
If everyone would please vote, and then we'll

13
14

be in recess as well for 20 minutes.

15

MR. GILL:

I'm going to vote for No. 1

16

anyway.

17

reality get in the way.

18
19
20

This thing is complex enough without having

CHAIRMAN URAM:

So, reconvene back about

quarter till or just before.
MR. WEINMAN:

Everybody be sure to your name

21

on both sheets, so I know whose sheets they are.

22

your name on the top of both sheets.

Put

You can either

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pass them down or take them directly over to Vanessa

2

and Roger.

3

[Break.]

4

CHAIRMAN URAM:

5

Okay, Greg, go ahead and

summarize.

6

MR. WEINMAN:

Okay.

This was a bit of a

7

complex tally, but the -- I'm going to start with

8

silver.

9

through the same one again for the gold.

This is the silver medal.

I'm going to go
So, for

10

silver, the 01 received 8 votes as a silver obverse

11

and 4 votes as a silver reverse.

12
13
14
15
16
17

01A received 7 votes as a silver obverse and
3 votes as a silver reverse.
2 received 3 as a silver obverse and 1 as a
silver reverse.
2A, same, 3 as a silver obverse, 1 as a
silver reverse.

18

3A received 3 as a silver --

19

MS. BORER:

20

MR. WEINMAN:

21
22

3A or 3?
This is 3 -- the scoring sheet

doesn't have 3 -MS. BORER:

It was 3A.

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MR. WEINMAN:

2

MS. BORER:

3
4

3A.
Because of the way it was

formatted.
MR. WEINMAN:

Okay.

3 -- it doesn't matter.

5

3 received 3 as an obverse and 1 as a silver reverse.

6

4, 4A, received 7 as a silver obverse and 1

7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22

as a silver reverse.
5, 5B, received 3 as a silver obverse and
then 5, which is formatted as 5C, received 2 as a
silver reverse.
6 received 11 as a silver obverse and 8 as a
silver reverse.
7 received 9 as a silver obverse and 8 as a
silver reverse.
8, which is 8A, received 7 as a silver
obverse and 9 as a silver reverse.
9, 9A, received 8 as a silver obverse and 5
as a silver reverse.
10 received 5 as a silver obverse and 3 as a
silver reverse.
11 received 16 as a silver obverse and 12 as
a silver reverse.

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1
2
3
4
5

12 received 10 as a silver obverse and 8 as a
silver reverse.
And 13 received 13 as a silver obverse and 11
as a silver reverse.
Okay, all that said, let's move over to the

6

gold coin, starting with 01.

7

possible obverse and 4 as a possible reverse.

8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22

It received 7 as a

1A received 4 as a possible obverse and 2 as
a possible reverse.
2 received 3 as a possible obverse and 1 as a
possible reverse.
2A received 3 as a possible obverse and 1 as
a possible reverse.
3 received 7 as a possible obverse and 2 as a
possible reverse.
4 received -- hold on -- 2 as a possible
obverse and 1 as a possible reverse.
5 received 2 as a possible obverse and 2 as a
possible reverse.
6 received 3 as a possible obverse and 6 as a
possible reverse.
7 received 11 as a possible obverse and 7 as

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a possible reverse.

2
3

8 received 5 as a possible obverse and 5 as a
possible reverse.

4
5

9 received 22 as a possible obverse and 11 as
a possible reverse.

6
7

10, design 10, received 9 as a possible
obverse and 10 as a possible reverse.
11 received 6 as a possible obverse and 4 as

8
9

a possible reverse.
12 received 7 as a possible obverse and 5 as

10
11

a possible reverse.

12
13

And 13 received 5 as a possible obverse and 3
as a possible reverse.

14
15

So, a bit of an across-the-board scoring
without clear, not necessarily clear favorites.

16
17

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Thank you, Greg.

Would

anyone at this point like to make any motion?

18

MR. MORAN:

19

CHAIRMAN URAM:

20

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Can we adjourn for lunch?

21

Tom.

22

we going to be able to --

Go ahead, Jeanne.
Excuse me.

Greg, what is the cutoff point?

Thank you,

I mean, how are

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MR. WEINMAN:

Yeah, well, what you're

2

referring to is typically in these situations we say

3

that the committee has informally decided that -- to

4

get the committee's recommendation you need at least

5

50% plus 1, which in this case, unfortunately, would

6

mean you need at least 16.

7

handful.

8

silver, would be 11 as an obverse, and for the gold,

9

the only one that got there was 9 as in obverse.

And there's only a

If we pick the only ones that got 16 for the

That

10

said, just because it didn't reach it that way,

11

somebody could argue -- you could always make a motion

12

if you want to recommend something, or alternatively

13

you could leave us your data and we will utilize it in

14

looking at -- in talking to the subject matter experts

15

and what the CFA does.

16

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Is it possible today to

17

review those images that received the most?

18

like the four or five images --

19

MR. WEINMAN:

20

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

You know,

Sure.
-- that received the

21

most and then we could make a recommendation as a

22

committee on reviewing them?

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MR. WEINMAN:

2

MR. MORAN:

Absolutely.
Let me throw my intentions in on

3

this.

4

obverse, 9.

5

of the reverses on the gold coin?

6
7

10
11

And it's a good one.

MR. WEINMAN:

Would have been 9 as

well.
MR. WEINMAN:

The best was 9 as a reverse;

coming in second would have been 10 as a reverse.
MR. MORAN:

13

MS. LANNIN:

15

The best reverse on the gold

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

12

14

What was the best

coin would have been 9 as well.

8
9

We do have a clear consensus on the gold coin

Which one is 10?
That's the one with the Bible.

But they're going to take that cross off.
MR. MORAN:

Just for the hell of it, I'll

16

make a motion and you call can vote it down, that we

17

accept 9 and 10 for the gold coin, then we'll -- then

18

let's revote on the silver.

19

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Okay.

So, we have a motion

20

on the floor by Mike to do the gold -- recommend the

21

gold No. 9 and No. 10, obverse and reverse.

22

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Second.

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CHAIRMAN URAM:

2

MR. HOGE:

Any discussion?

Robert?

I would like to make an

3

observation here that this would not include the word

4

"Mayflower" and in fact would not then indicate what

5

the occasion is.

6

MR. WEINMAN:

Once again, inscriptions you

7

can do by separate motion.

8

inscriptions are on the coins right now.

9

MR. HOGE:

10

It's not as positive what

Okay.

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Okay.

11

now is, and seconded by Jeanne.

12

discussion?

13

MR. SCARINCI:

14

MS. LANNIN:

15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22

what?

So, the motion right
Any further

Without the cross, what book?
It could be fabric.

You know

It could be anything.
MR. SCARINCI:

Okay.

All right.

I'm

abstaining on this.
MR. WEINMAN:

Just by way to clarify, it

isn't that it's not a Bible -MR. SCARINCI:

I'm abstaining anyway, so it

doesn't matter.
MR. WEINMAN:

Just to clarify, based on --

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and I don't want to speak for the subject matter

2

experts, but my understanding was it's just that this

3

group of people would not have been that flashy, would

4

not have put a cross on their Bible.

5

they were.

They were reformists, yes.
DR. KOTLOWSKI:

6

That wasn't who

So, we can assume, then, that

7

it is a Bible, even if it doesn't have the cross on

8

it?
MR. WEINMAN:

9

That's the implication.

10

DR. KOTLOWSKI:

Yeah.

11

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Robert?

12

MR. HOGE:

Neither of these has an indication

13

of a Mayflower, the flower that in fact is in some of

14

the designs, nor is there a picture of the ship,

15

either.

16

exactly relate.

So, even if it says Mayflower, it doesn't

17

CHAIRMAN URAM:

18

MR. GILL:

Sam?

I think this still has to sell,

19

and I don't think either one of those we just flashed

20

up there are going to sell like something that has a

21

Mayflower on it, dates on it, what we're trying to

22

commemorate and it tells a story.

That's just my

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view.

2
3

MR. SCARINCI:

What's the story?

I mean,

there is no --

4

MR. GILL:

5

MR. SCARINCI:

6

MR. GILL:

7

MR. MORAN:

Well, that is not a story.
There is no story here.

This is a story, the No. 1.
But you can't use No. 1 on a gold

8

coin, because you can't see it.

9

a silver medal.

I'm maneuvering around to that.

CHAIRMAN URAM:

10

I'm all for No. 1 on

Mike, let's ask Ron, what do

11

you think about the planter (ph) size for No. 1 and

12

striking of that?
MR. HARRIGAL:

13

I mean, clearly there's a lot

14

of detail there.

I think we can get -- we can get the

15

general idea across with it, but when you start

16

looking at all the detail on the clothing and that

17

type of thing, you are going to lose a lot of that.
I think, go back to when we did the keelboat

18
19

nickel.

You see detail, you can see the boat, you can

20

tell there are people in it.

21

that, you know, they're obviously coming off the ship

22

here, but a little problem with the woman in front of

You'll be able to tell

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the guy with the pole.

2

separate that.

3

MR. GILL:

4

MR. HARRIGAL:

It's going to be tough to

The babies are gone.
And the baby is going to look

5

like a sack of potatoes or something.

6

going to see the baby at all.

7
8

CHAIRMAN URAM:
coin?

9
10

Does it have to be a $5 size

Could it be a $10 gold piece, a real one?
MR. HARRIGAL:

The program office would have

to talk about.

11
12

You're not

MR. WEINMAN:

Because I think -- and feel

free to comment -MS. BAILEY:

13

So, the plan is for this to be a

14

quarter ounce so that it's the same size as what

15

others may do.

16

when you go up in size on a gold coin, that is

17

something that we would face.

18

We also want it to be affordable, and

MR. WEINMAN:

I would have to go back and

19

look at the Treasury memo that approved this program,

20

I can't appropriately identify it as being a quarter

21

ounce.

22

I don't -- we may not accept that.
MS. BAILEY:

I don't know, yeah, I'd have to

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look.

2
3

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
the floor, seconded.

We have a motion on

Let's have a vote.

4

CHAIRMAN URAM:

5

MS. STAFFORD:

6

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Any further discussion?
Repeat the question.
Okay.

So, the motion is that

7

you'll have obverse No. 9 and reverse No. 10 on the

8

gold.

9

Jeanne.

10

The motion was made by Mike Moran, seconded by
All those in favor signify by saying aye, or

raise your hand.

11

MR. JANSEN:

12

CHAIRMAN URAM:

13
14

Wow, okay.

Aye.
Erik's an aye.

Opposed?

And recorded Don's abstention.
MR. JANSEN:

I'm curious.

Did that go down

15

because people don't agree with the reverse, or are we

16

walking away from our compelling obverse decision?

17

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Erik, I think it's more the

18

Mayflower issue than anything.

Those voted against

19

can speak on it if you'd like.

Okay, Robert?

20

MR. HOGE:

These are actually depictions that

21

are very similar.

They both show the Native American

22

man and the pioneer man.

One of them is simply heads

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and the other shows the bodies.

2

duplicating each other, which is kind of missing the

3

point, because they totally leave out Mayflower.

4

CHAIRMAN URAM:

5

Mike.

6

something else?

7

these designs --

10

Well, how about this, then,

One of these designs and then pair it with
If there's an agreement that one of

MR. MORAN:

8
9

They're actually

Greg, what was the No. 2 on the

reverse?
MR. WEINMAN:

No. 2 on the reverse would have

11

-- that was No. 2.

12

beyond that, it probably would be either -- 7.

13

No. 1 was 9, 10 was No. 2.

CHAIRMAN URAM:

But

It seems to me like we like

14

No. 10 and we can't find a pairing because of the

15

planter size, and we need the vessel itself somehow.

16

Can that all be scaled down?

17

MS. LANNIN:

Go ahead, Mary.

I like Dean's idea, the radical

18

one, of the Mayflower Compact.

19

9 as an obverse and -- I know, Ron, you're going to

20

say it's really busy, but at least it gets the word

21

"Mayflower" in there.

22

CHAIRMAN URAM:

So, what if we did No.

But on the gold --

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MS. LANNIN:

I know, never mind.

2

CHAIRMAN URAM:

3

MR. MORAN:

That's good for the silver.

We're back to the same problem I

4

had when I was trying to evaluate these.

5

find a gold coin reverse.

6

CHAIRMAN URAM:

I couldn't

I just couldn't.
Well, that's what Rob and I

7

were talking about, but we're going to make a

8

decision.

9

let it go, unless someone has some strong opinions

I think it might be at this point that we

10

that we can make this, that it goes back -- it goes

11

back to the Mint to decide the pairing on it with the

12

recommendations to work it out.

13

MR. JANSEN:

Well, Tom, Tom, my only concern

14

with that is, and with all due respect to the CFA,

15

this issue of busyness and the palette size, it's

16

going to get lost on them, and I'm just concerned with

17

that.

18

CHAIRMAN URAM:

I agree.

But I also think

19

that if we're not able to resolve definitively a

20

design, then we have to have that fallback.

21
22

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Is it possible, Mr.

Chairman, that we would take out "E Pluribus Unum" on

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No. 10 and put "Mayflower" in there, or "United States

2

of America?"

Is there someplace that we could put

3

"Mayflower?"

You know, we have a lot of text and

4

interesting text that I think we could -- for those

5

who voted against these two, is there something that

6

could be in the text that would help you change your

7

mind?

8
9

MR. WEINMAN:

You could always make a motion

that the word "Mayflower" appear somewhere and you

10

give the Mint discretion to move around inscriptions

11

to try to make that happen.

12
13
14

MR. MORAN:

little boat out there on the horizon?
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

15

You wouldn't see it.

16

MR. MORAN:

17
18

Is the issue that we want a

No, you can't see it.

It would be too tiny.
I'm just trying to get a vote.

I'm almost at the point of frustration, Jeanne.
CHAIRMAN URAM:

The other idea would be if

19

you go with 5A or 5B -- or, for instance, 5B has

20

"Mayflower" on it with the graphics 5B, and then team

21

data with No. 9.

22

Dean, go ahead.

DR. KOTLOWSKI:

Yeah, I had another radical

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idea, because I don't want to give up my Mayflower

2

Compact, as you can tell -- is that we take 9 and 8,

3

the obverse and reverse, and make that the silver

4

dollar, and then we take 1 and some version, maybe, of

5

11, 12, 13, for the reverse of the gold.

6

too much -- is it Mike's problem still?

7

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Is it still

Yeah, the gold is -- the

8

silver would be the No. 1 on the silver, which is

9

probably where it would be best because of the size.

10

But as I was mentioning on the gold, if you want to

11

have "Mayflower" on the gold, you could use that 5B

12

with No. 9, or if there is something similar.

13

MS. LANNIN:

14

CHAIRMAN URAM:

15
16
17
18

And then that's the reverse.
There's the Mayflower then

the reverse being -MS. LANNIN:

Which actually gives a lot of

prominence to the Native Americans.
MR. MORAN:

The only thing I would object to

19

on 5 is the fact that the baby will get lost.

20

do 6, it's essentially the same design but the figures

21

are more distinct.

22

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Okay.

If you

We could make a motion

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to put "Mayflower" in there.

2

the Mayflower is missing.

3

might be -- you have the young person and the

4

curiosity scene coming over, and then you have -- then

5

you can have Mayflower somewhere added.
MS. LANNIN:

6
7
8
9

So, I agree.

silver.
CHAIRMAN URAM:

This might be the better,

though, for the gold because of the size.
MS. LANNIN:

11

MR. MORAN:

12

since I got slaughtered the --

14
15
16

Yeah.
I'm not going to make the motion

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Let's try again.

Go ahead,

make your motion.
MR. MORAN:

All right.

I move that the No. 9

for the obverse -- is that right?

17

CHAIRMAN URAM:

18

MR. MORAN:

19

CHAIRMAN URAM:

20

MR. MORAN:

21

CHAIRMAN URAM:

22

I think that

Except 6 toward really 5 for

10

13

That's the difference is

Um-hum.

And No. 6 for the reverse -B.

6B.
Okay.

We have a motion.

need a second.

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MR. MORAN:

I'm going to go to lunch.

2

MS. SALMON:

3

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Second.
Thank you, thank you.

Okay,

4

so let's put them back up.

5

If not, let's put them back up there.

6

saying for the gold now, we're looking at the gold.

7

We're looking at 5B -- 5A, right?

8

no child, so we're going to go with B.

9

MR. MORAN:

10

Any further discussion?
So, we are

There you go.

No, I thought it was 6.

CHAIRMAN URAM:

6, okay, 6. Sorry, I was

11

thinking -- okay, no child.

12

is what we have teamed up with No. 9.

There you go.

Okay, 6B

Right, Michael?

13

MR. MORAN:

14

MS. LANNIN:

This is the reverse.

15

MR. JANSEN:

I actually have an idea.

16
17
18

But

Yes.

What

if -CHAIRMAN URAM:

Wait, we have a motion --

pardon me, Erik?

19

MR. JANSEN:

20

CHAIRMAN URAM:

21

MR. JANSEN:

22

design 8 again, okay?

I'm sorry.
Go ahead.

I was going to say, look at
I know it's busy, but here's a

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thought, because I've seen it happen before on the

2

gold.

3

to pop a lot more and solve the complexity problem,

4

but it may pull some contrast and give us a little bit

5

of satisfaction.

6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13

If we incuse the Mayflower Compact, it's going

CHAIRMAN URAM:

You're saying this -- well,

okay, we have a motion first on -- that Mike had.
MR. JANSEN:

I apologize.

I didn't know

there was a motion.
MR. MORAN:

Don't worry, Erik, I get voted

down all the time.
CHAIRMAN URAM:

Okay.

So, right now the

motion is for 6B and 9, right?

14

MS. LANNIN:

15

MR. MORAN:

16

MS. LANNIN:

And 6B is the reverse.

17

MR. JANSEN:

I didn't think there was a

18

9 is the obverse, right?
Yes.

second, was there?

19

CHAIRMAN URAM:

20

MR. JANSEN:

21

CHAIRMAN URAM:

22

Erik's comments as well.

Yeah, Robin did second.

I couldn't hear it, I'm sorry.
That's okay.

And you heard

So, any further discussion?

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MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Yes, I have one.

If we

2

take 9, just plain old 9, for the -- whatever side, if

3

we change the text to 9A, I think we have a better

4

understanding of what this is about.
MR. JANSEN:

5
6

I thought we were focusing on

images and we would do the text a little later?

7

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Well, if you're comfortable

8

with the text in 9A, then we can always make -- we

9

change the text either way after another motion.

So,

10

right now the motion is for 6B for the reverse and 9A

11

for the obverse.

12

for the gold, and this would be for that particular

13

planchet size.

And then we'll deal with -- this is

MR. WEINMAN:

14

Keep in mind we're talking

15

about a gold coin.

16

is going to have to have some coin-related

17

inscription.
MR. MORAN:

18

This is not the medal, so the coin

Yeah, I was about to bring that

19

up, particularly if you go with 9B.

You've got no

20

room for inscriptions on the obverse at all, and then

21

you're -- all of a sudden you're cramming everything

22

in.

You've got "E Pluribus Unum," "In God We Trust,"

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the denomination, "United States of America," the

2

date, the whole thing gets shoved over there.

3

a mess.

4

CHAIRMAN URAM:

This is

Let's go ahead and vote.

So,

5

that's a good point and I think you're right, we'd up

6

right where we are on that particular one.

7

MR. MORAN:

8

CHAIRMAN URAM:

9

I know where this one's going.
All those in favor of 6B for

the reverse and 9A for the obverse, signify by saying

10

aye and raise your hand.

11

opposed.

12

MR. WEINMAN:

13

CHAIRMAN URAM:

14

MR. JANSEN:

15

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Four, one abstain, two

We don't have Erik.
Erik?

I'm a no.
Okay, then it's defeated.

16

So, we're back, then, to the discussion of whether

17

we're going to hand this off to the Mint to tweak it.

18

Go ahead, Mary.
MS. LANNIN:

19

What if 9A is the reverse, okay?

20

So, that gets the alliance in for the common defense,

21

or either 9 or 9A to make everything correct legally

22

as a coin.

That becomes the reverse, and No. 6 is the

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obverse.

2
3

What if we just switched them?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

Make a motion and go

with that.

4

MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

I make a motion that 6

5

becomes the obverse and that, whichever version of 9

6

makes it correct as a coin, be the reverse.

7
8

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Mary's made a motion.

Is there a second?

9
10

Okay.

MR. MORAN:

I'm the kiss of death.

I'm not

going to do it.

11

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

12

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Second.

Jeanne seconds it.

Any

13

further discussion on the same designs as we book this

14

coin?

15

the five, on the gold, that image.

16

discussion?

17

aye, raise your hands.

18

MR. WEINMAN:

19
20

That's all we're doing.

This obviously fits on
Any further

All those in favor significant by saying
Opposed?
Go back to the yeas.

Go back

to the yeas.
CHAIRMAN URAM:

21

three, four, five.

22

one abstained.

Okay.

Opposed?

All in favor, one, two

One, two, three, four,

Passes.

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2

MR. RYDER:
vote?

Wait a minute.

I had my hand up.

3

CHAIRMAN URAM:

4

MR. RYDER:

5

Be my guest.

I thought you guys were having

lunch.

6

MR. WEINMAN:

7

CHAIRMAN URAM:

8

Didn't I have a

silver.

Okay.

9

Move on to the silver.
Okay, moving on to the

I think this --

MR. MORAN:

Let me make a suggestion.

Now

10

that we've got the gold coin out of the way, let's

11

reboot and just vote again.

12

CHAIRMAN URAM:

13

MR. MORAN:

14

On the silver coin from the

designs.

15

CHAIRMAN URAM:

16

MR. MORAN:

17

CHAIRMAN URAM:

18

21
22

Right.

That's where we are.

Just redo the vote.
Don't you want No. 1, I

thought, is for the silver?
MS. LANNIN:

19
20

On what?

I thought the silver was sort of

already -CHAIRMAN URAM:

We're putting the larger

images, the images that --

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MR. MORAN:

2

CHAIRMAN URAM:

3

Okay, well We have something to vote on

because --

4

MR. WEINMAN:

The scoring sheet is really a

5

tool.

6

based on what your preference seems to be.

7

want -- I mean, is there any information from the

8

scoring sheet that you need?
MR. MORAN:

9
10

At this point you're welcome to make motions

MR. WEINMAN:

12

MS. LANNIN:

14

There were no real strong

preferences.

11

13

If you

The closest one was 11.
Was the one that we used for the

gold.
MR. MORAN:

Yeah, and you drop those out.

15

I'm saying instead of sitting here doing what we just

16

did, which is painful, let's just, as a committee,

17

rescore this thing with the 6 and 9 eliminated.

18
19

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Yes, but 11 has gotten

the most votes, right?

20

MS. LANNIN:

21

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

22

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Yes.
Put the silver --

Remember back to Sam's point

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as well, and we want to make sure it sells.

2

MR. WEINMAN:

If you like, we could recess

3

for lunch and you could discuss this and you could

4

discuss this and come back if you want some time.

5

Lunch is ready.

6
7

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Pardon

me?
MR. WEINMAN:

8
9

What's the desire?

vote.

Okay, you can't -- you can't

As long as you're not -- let me clarify.

As

10

long as you discuss among groups of less than seven,

11

then you can have a conversation.

12

among groups of less than seven during lunch, as long

13

as you come back after lunch and have conversation

14

with the larger group.

15
16
17
18

MR. JANSEN:

You can caucus

Erik, you got that?

Make sure

you don't do that, okay?
MR. JANSEN:

I hate to tell you this, but I'm

going to bed.

19

MR. WEINMAN:

20

MR. JANSEN:

21

MR. WEINMAN:

22

MR. JANSEN:

What time is it there, Erik?
It's 2:30 in the morning.
Thank you, Erik.
We do the best we can.

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CHAIRMAN URAM:

2

MR. JANSEN:

3

[Lunch.]

4

CHAIRMAN URAM:

We are now recessed.

Good night, mates.

I'd like to call us back

5

together from recess and lunch, and we'll continue our

6

dialogue.

7

Scarinci for clarification to his vote.

8
9

And I understand that I'll call on Mr. Don

MR. SCARINCI:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr.

Chairman, you know, I've listened to a lot of comments

10

that have been made today about all the various coins

11

and there is no clear vote or recommendation from the

12

CCAC by our own rules.

13

read the design descriptions, there's a paragraph,

14

paragraph two, that is in the design descriptions that

15

says, and I'll quote it directly.

16

Mint intends to sell the gold coin and silver medal

17

individually, and paired with a coin produced by the

18

British Royal Mint.

19

and United States Mint Coins and Medals will more

20

fully tell the story of the Mayflower voyage from the

21

beginning through its fruition."

22

again.

And the -- when I sat and re-

It says that, "The

The pairing of British Royal Mint

I'll read that

"The pairing of the British Royal Mint and

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United States Mint Coins and Medals will more fully

2

tell the story."

3

Royal Mint is doing a project together with the United

4

States Mint, and that's pretty awesome.

5

that, you know, we should encourage that.

6

that's happening to some degree this year with

7

Australia.

8

other mints around the world are celebrating the 50th

9

anniversary as well, with coins that are being

So, that implies that the British

And I think
You know,

As we've seen with the moon landing and

10

produced by other countries around the world and that

11

the Mint has nothing to do with.

12

would be great if we did, and it would be great if

13

this could be the beginning of the Mint doing that.

You know, but it

14

So, I think we should really be supportive,

15

and since no one really feels, you know, passionately

16

here, and since I abstained, I'd like to withdraw my

17

abstention and introduce a motion to allow the Mint

18

staff to select from the designs the designs that are

19

most compatible and suitable for inclusion in a -- in

20

a pairing with the coins produced by the British Royal

21

Mint that tell the American side of the Mayflower

22

story that will look well together and be marketed

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well side-by-side, and tell the full story of the

2

Mayflower, and give that discretion to the US Mint.

3

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Okay, Don.

You've heard

4

Don's comments.

5

to rescind their motion, that would be Jeanne and

6

Mike, or Jeanne, you made the original motion for the

7

gold piece.

If the maker of the motion would like

You'd have to rescind that vote.

8

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

9

CHAIRMAN URAM:

For the gold?

Yeah, if we're going to --

10

you're talking about going back all the way, Don, on

11

the whole program for both the silver and the gold,

12

correct?

13

MR. SCARINCI:

14

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Yeah.
If that's the case, then

15

we'll need to have the original motion rescinded, and

16

that has to come from the maker.

17

MR. WEINMAN:

18

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

That's you, Jeanne.
I know.

Okay, this is

19

a little difficult for me to rescind because I like to

20

have to have the work with the silver medal, or coin.

21

But I thought our gold was already decided and it's a

22

little disappointing to have to take it all back,

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Donald, all of it.

2

yes.

3

forward, I will rescind my motion.

4

CHAIRMAN URAM:

5

If you would say half, I would say

So, yes, I will -- in order for this to go

And the person made the

second was Robin?

6

MR. WEINMAN:

Although technically speaking,

7

the motion already passed.

This is really a motion

8

for reconsideration, to be honest, not a motion to

9

rescind something that already passed.

10

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

11

MR. WEINMAN:

Okay, thank you.

It's really something --

12

really, what you're saying is you need a motion for

13

reconsideration.
CHAIRMAN URAM:

14
15

anything with the other motion at this point?

16

MR. MORAN:

17

CHAIRMAN URAM:

18

If you repeat your motion.
The motion is to hand it

back.
MR. WEINMAN:

19
20

I guess we don't have to do

It was already passed, so go

ahead.

21

MR. HOGE:

22

CHAIRMAN URAM:

A motion to reconsider -Okay, Robert.

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that?

2

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

3

CHAIRMAN URAM:

4

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

5

CHAIRMAN URAM:

To reconsider?

To reconsider.
All right.

All those in favor of

6

reconsidering the motion signify by saying aye, raise

7

your hand.

8

is that right?

9
10

Opposed?

Erik's not on the phone anymore,

Okay, passed.

Okay, so now you have another motion?
need another motion?

We

Donald or Jeanne, either one?

11

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

12

MR. SCARINCI:

Go ahead, Donald.

Now I would introduce my

13

motion to authorize the United States -- to authorize

14

the Mint staff to select the designs that would work

15

best with the designs -- in a pairing with the designs

16

selected by the British Royal Mint in a combined

17

package that would be most suitable to tell the story

18

from the point of view of the Mayflower.

19

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:
Okay.

Can we have a

20

discussion before?

One of the things that

21

concerns me is that by turning over this whole thing -

22

-

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2

MR. SCARINCI:

There needs to be a second

first.

3

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Okay, that's true.

Anyone

4

like to second the motion to have the Mint review

5

designs?

6

MR. HOGE:

7

CHAIRMAN URAM:

8

MR. WEINMAN:

9

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

I'll second it.
Robert?
Now discussion.
Okay, thank you.

What

10

concerns me about this motion, although I think it's a

11

very good motion, I think it also sort of obliterates

12

our job as CCAC members to decide what is in our

13

opinion a good design for this program.

14

the only thing that troubles me.

15

through a whole lot to arrive at the very cattywampus

16

decision we had, and I would like people to consider

17

that when they're voting on this.

18

MS. LANNIN:

And this is

I think we went

What if, for Donald's motion,

19

what if the wording -- so we don't seem to be ceding

20

our authority back to the Mint and thereby negating

21

what we feel our jobs are, which is Jeanne's concern,

22

and I agree with that -- what if in Donald's motion he

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put in based on the discussions and vote totals of the

2

coins that we previously voted on, so the Mint

3

wouldn't be looking at something that we didn't have a

4

--

5

CHAIRMAN URAM:

6

MS. LANNIN:

7

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

8

As irrelevant.

-- as irrelevant, okay?
Good idea.

I agree

with that.

9

MS. LANNIN:

Okay?

So, that kind of covers

10

as a bridge for everything, and then we wind up with

11

something that is very salable and that shows our

12

viewpoint and the Native American viewpoint.
MR. WEINMAN:

13
14

Does Donald accept your

amendment?

15

MR. SCARINCI:

Yes.

Yes, I do.

And I also

16

make a point that this is not a precedent; this is a

17

unique -- yes, I do accept the amendment.

18

make the point that this is not a precedent (ph) for

19

anything in the future.

20

in this instance.

21

encouraging -- we're encouraging joint efforts, and

22

this is --

And I also

There are two unique things

One unique thing is that we're

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MR. WEINMAN:

Hold on.

Whoever -- anybody on

2

the phone, please mute your phone.

3

conversation.

4

Thank you.

MR. SCARINCI:

We can hear your

Please go ahead, Donald.
And this is an effort that

5

we're applauding, and it is probably a very difficult

6

thing to do, dealing with another government.

7

number two, that none of the designs in our vote, in

8

our voting came even close to getting a majority by

9

our own rules.

10

And,

So, in light of both of those things

11

happening, this seems like a good and expeditious

12

solution in order to move this ball forward.

13

and adding that language does create that restrictive.
MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

14

So, yes,

I just want to add one

15

more thing.

16

very difficult for me is that the designs that were

17

presented for the very first time I've been able to

18

look at all these designs and say, wow, these are

19

good.

20

you very much.

What has made this proposal and program

So, I applaud the artists that did that.

Thank

21

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Thank you.

Dean?

22

DR. KOTLOWSKI:

I am strongly committed to

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the Anglo-American special relationship, but as this

2

conversation has unfolded about this particular coin,

3

which I could have supported in the very prescribed

4

way that I've articulated a little bit earlier, I've

5

lost all enthusiasm for the project, and therefore I'm

6

going to vote against this motion on the assumption

7

that when it is defeated we will move on and de facto

8

will go back to the Mint, and literally I'm washing my

9

hands of it.
CHAIRMAN URAM:

10

Thank you.

Okay, we have a

11

motion.

Any further discussion?

12

a vote.

All those in favor of the motion and the

13

amendment to the motion, raise your hand.

14

Abstained?

Thank you.

If not, we will take

Opposed?

Passes.

One last thing before we move off this topic.

15
16

Just keeps giving and giving.

17

you.

18

record I thought I would this, since she also took the

19

time to do that and I wanted -- if she'd been on the

20

line, this is what she's going to say.

21

wanted to say thank you on behalf of our society.

22

There are over 10 million Mayflower descendants in

This is from Lea.

I'll just read this to

She got cut off, and for the

"Hi.

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I just

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America and over 35 million in the world.

2

will be for all of them.

3

important makers in history, American history, and we

4

thank the secretary of the Treasury.

5

to be included in this discussion.

6

And she is the -- on the former Governor's Council and

7

president of the Meeting House Charitable Trust.

8

Thank you.

9

These coins

It marks one of the many

We are honored
Thanks.

Okay, moving right along.

Lea."

Why don't we --

10

hey, can we have a little bit of a break.

11

a little bit of a break after this, so you're back and

12

let's review the designs for the American Innovation

13

$1 Coin Program.

14

You've got

April?

MS. STAFFORD:

Yes, sir.

And if it's okay

15

with you, Mr. Chairman, we'll do one state at a time

16

and then pause for deliberation.

17

looking at the candidate designs and the design

18

descriptions, I'm going to ask Megan Sullivan, who is

19

the design manager for this program, to reference any

20

preference from the governors' offices that she may

21

have received, as well as acknowledge any subject

22

matter experts that we might have joining us on the

At the end of

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phone.

2

All right?
The 2019 American Innovation $1 Coin

3

candidate designs.

4

Innovation Dollar Coin Act, requires the secretary of

5

the Treasury to mint coins in recognition of American

6

innovation and significant innovation and pioneering

7

efforts of individuals and groups.

8

concepts for this program were developed in

9

consultation with the governor of each of the states,

Public law 115-197, the American

The design

10

as well as the Smithsonian's Lemelson Center for the

11

Study of Invention and Innovation, and approved by the

12

secretary of the Treasury.

13

concepts must feature a significant innovation,

14

innovator or group of innovators.

15

reviewed by subject matter experts on each innovation,

16

as well as the governors' representatives and

17

representatives from the Lemelson Center.

As per the act, the

Designs have been

We will start with Delaware.

18

The first

19

concept.

Born in Delaware in 1843, Annie Jump Cannon

20

was an internationally renowned astronomer, who

21

invented a system for classifying the stars that is

22

still in use today.

So, Delaware design 1 and 1A

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features Annie Jump Cannon seated at a table

2

classifying stars from a photographic glass plate.

3

The additional inscriptions are "Classifying the

4

Stars" and "Annie Jump Cannon."

5

Delaware 2, 3 and 4 depict the Harvard

6

Observatory, open to view the night sky.

7

observatory is where the photographic plates later

8

analyzed by Annie Jump Cannon were created.

9

designs include the inscription "Annie Jump Cannon."

10

Designs 2 and 4 include the inscription "Classifying

11

the Stars," and design 3 includes the inscription

12

"American Astronomer."

13

silhouette of Annie Jump Cannon against the night sky

14

with a number of stars visible in the sky.

15

design 6 depicts Annie Jump Cannon looking through a

16

telescope observing the stars.

17

seven stars featuring the seven stellar

18

classifications she developed.

19

depicts starlight through a prism along with the

20

letters "O," "B", "A", "F", "G", "K" and "M,"

21

representing the spectral classification scheme

22

developed by Annie Jump Cannon.

This

The

Delaware design 5 features a

Delaware

She's surrounded by

Delaware design 7A

Design 8 features the

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inscription "Annie Jump Cannon."

2

9 features a telescope inside an observatory.

3

additional inscription is "Stellar Classification."

4

And Delaware design
The

Moving on to Delaware's next concept.

Nylon,

5

the first commercially viable synthetic fiber ushered

6

in a fashion revolution, help the allies win World War

7

II, and transformed the chemical industry by proving

8

that the composition of polymers could be predicted

9

and engineered like many other chemical products.

10

Delaware design 10 features the hands of a

11

scientist as he mixes the ingredients to create nylon.

12

A simplified graphic representation of the nylon

13

molecules featured in the background.

14

symbolizing the importance of nylon to the allied

15

victory in World War II flank the inscription

16

"Invention of Nylon."

17

"1940" is the year that nylon was developed.

18

Laurel wreaths

The additional inscription

Delaware design 11 depicts the critical use

19

of nylon, a parachute canopy and lines.

The star and

20

circle attached to the lines is the symbol of the

21

allied forces during World War II.

22

and laurel wreath represent the importance of nylon to

The victory banner

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the allied victory.

2

"Invention of Nylon" and "Victory in World War II."

3

The additional inscriptions read

Delaware design 12 depicts some of the

4

varying uses of nylon.

5

paratrooper who has jumped from a B-24 Liberator.

6

Both the parachute and the parachute cords are made of

7

nylon.

8

additional inscription is "Nylon."

9

The design features a

The inset features nylon toothbrushes.

The

Delaware designs 13 and 14 depict the use of

10

nylon in parachutes and parachute cord along with the

11

inscription "Nylon."

12

Liberator and contains the additional inscriptions

13

"World War II" and "Parachutes and Cords," along with

14

a parachute inspired by the lapel pen worn by World

15

War II army paratroopers.

Design 14 features a B-24

16

Delaware designs 15 and 16 utilize sewing

17

machine and fabric to highlight the use of nylon in

18

synthetic fiber, which has had a lasting impact on the

19

fashion industry.

20

is a US flag.

In design 16, the fabric being sewn

21

And I will ask Megan Sullivan to share any

22

governor's preferences we received for Delaware, and

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also check in with the subject matter experts we might

2

have on the phone.

3

MS. SULLIVAN:

So, for Delaware, they have

4

given me a ranked list of number of the designs, so

5

I'll just walk through that.

6

No. 1 is design 5; ranked No. 2 are designs 1 and 1A;

7

ranked No. 3, design 10; ranked No. 4 is design 6;

8

ranked No. 5 are 13 and 14; and ranked No. 6 are 14A

9

and 14B.

And now I will see if we have any liaisons

10

on the line.

11

tentative.

12

So, their first ranking

I know for both of them it was very
Courtney, were you able to call in?

MS. STEWART:

13

I am.

14

another meeting.

Hi, yes, I sure did -- I mean,

I'm here until about 2:00, and then I have

15

MS. SULLIVAN:

16

you're here.

17

Dava, are you available?

Well, I'm surprised that

Thank you so much for calling in.

18

MS. SOBEL:

19

MS. SULLIVAN:

And,

Are you on the line?

I am.
Oh, my goodness, 100%.

Thank

20

you guys.

So, we have Courtney Stewart, who is with

21

the Secretary of State, and Dava Sobel, who wrote "The

22

Glass Universe" and is our Annie Jump Cannon expert.

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2

Dava, do you have anything you'd like to say
before the commission begins their discussion?
MS. SOBEL:

3

I'd just like to say again how

4

wonderful it was that a woman who was given this

5

opportunity in the 1800s created a system of stellar

6

classification that is still in use today.

7

of people don't know that it was her work, and she was

8

a Delaware native.

9

her, and if you have any specific questions about what

10

the classification meant or what the images represent.

11

She worked from glass plates that now number about

12

half a million, and they're all still at the Harvard

13

Observatory.

14

digitized because they're so valuable for research.

16

The state is extremely proud of

And they're in the process of being

MS. SULLIVAN:

15

And a lot

Thank you so much.

Courtney,

did you have anything you also wanted to add?

17

MS. STEWART:

No, I think you are ranking and

18

I'm sorry that it's something so close to the meeting

19

date.

20

pleasure working with you, Megan.

21

have been fabulous.

22

design.

I just want to add that it's been an absolute
You and the team

We're very pleased with the first

We really, really like that one, and we like

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all the designs.

2

stood out to us the most.

3

what the committee has to say about this, so thank

4

you.

But the one we ranked No. 1 really

5

MS. SULLIVAN:

6

CHAIRMAN URAM:

7

MR. SCARINCI:
didn't hear that.

14

She just said she's sorry -- I

No. 5 is their first

preference.

12
13

Thank you both Megan and

She says No. 5 stood out the most?

MS. SULLIVAN:

10
11

Thank you so much.

Dava.

8
9

So, I'm anxious to hear

MR. SCARINCI:

Yes, good taste, very good

taste.
CHAIRMAN URAM:

I'll just start out by saying

15

in looking at the designs and listening to Dava and

16

Courtney and the presentation that April made, they're

17

all worthy, certainly, but this No. 5 certainly is one

18

that is stellar, I mean, without a doubt.

19

that before, but, no, it's great recognition and great

20

design by the artist as well.

21

to say in regards to this, and I'll turn it over to

22

the committee now.

Never heard

So, that's what I have

And, Robert, then, just remind

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everyone, please be conscience of their time.

2

you.

Robert?

3

MR. HOGE:

4

CHAIRMAN URAM:

5

Thank

I'm in favor of No. 5.
That's very good.

Robin, go

ahead.

6

MS. SALMON:

7

CHAIRMAN URAM:

No. 5.

I already did this.

Hey, this is going better

8

than the morning.

9

You may comment on anything above and beyond No. 5,

10
11

Could we do this again?

Okay, Sam?

keep in mind.
MR. GILL:

I think No. 5 would make the

12

prettiest coin, but nylon is a huge component of how

13

the war ended in World War II.

14

of pilots had to bail out of planes and they relied on

15

a nylon parachute to get down.

16

that parachuted into Normandy and other places, and to

17

this day, parachutes are still made out of nylon.

18

in terms of a history perspective, the stellar thing

19

is wonderful.

20

of the way -- what's affected us all here and going

21

forward, nylon really has it.

22

Hundreds of thousands

Hundreds of thousands

So,

It's very, very important, but in terms

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Do you have a preference on

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the design for nylon?

2

MR. GILL:

I was going to say No. 11.

And

3

the only reason I said that is victory in World War II

4

and it emphasizes that point.

5

going to look on a coin; it's not going to be nearly

6

as pretty as No. 5, but --

7

CHAIRMAN URAM:

I'm not sure how it's

The recognition, and I think

8

that's going to be our dilemma going forward.

9

Michael?

Thank you.
MR. MORAN:

10

We've taken a different turn with

11

this program than any of the ones that I've been

12

involved with since 2011.

13

and we chose designs and illustrated that particular

14

theme.

15

judgments -- one being the theme itself and the second

16

being the design.

Today we're being asked to actually make two

CHAIRMAN URAM:

17

We've always had one theme

Once again, whoever is on the

18

phone, would you please mute your telephone?

19

on the phone, please mute your telephone.

20

you.

21
22

Anybody

We can hear

Thank you so much.
MR. MORAN:

And when you get to New Jersey,

for me that was a no-brainer in terms of which was the

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most important theme, and that's -- I could judge that

2

one.

3

sure I can, I'm not sure I'm qualified to.

4

would pick the theme before I'd pick the design,

5

because I think the theme is the most important thing.

6

And I wanted to listen to, from the two specialists,

7

as they went down their favorites I kind of kept

8

score.

9

important to them than nylon, even though I happen to

And Pennsylvania as well.

Delaware, I'm not
And I

And to them the star classification was more

10

agree with Sam.

11

to judge what the state would like to see.

12

think -- I ask as we go forward with the other states

13

to take care to either -- if we have multiple themes,

14

to help us in terms of how we judge these.

15

little bit different than just judging designs.

16

I'm going to listen to the people from Delaware and

17

I'm going to go with No. 5.

But I don't think I'm in a position

18

CHAIRMAN URAM:

19

MR. SCARINCI:

Thank you, Mike.

So, I

It's a
But

Donald?

New Jersey, of course, is a

20

sister state to Delaware, and I am bursting with pride

21

not only with the good taste of the liaison from

22

Delaware, but the good judgment in supporting the

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achievement and our ability to commemorate the

2

achievement of a woman, which is far more rare in our

3

coinage than yet another war commemorative.

4

you look at the Red Book, how many more coins

5

commemorating war?

6

commemorating World War II?

7

you know, with that theme do we really need to

8

produce?

9

achievement of a woman, and an opportunity to do it in

10

such, you know, an esthetically appealing way as this,

11

you know, that doesn't present itself too often.

12

to me, this is a no-brainer and this is not an

13

opportunity that we should miss.

14

more opportunities to do war things.

15

know, nylon was important, you know, to the war

16

effort, and it was important to so many other things

17

as well.

18

you know, to a lot of contemporary products that we

19

all use, including my Ted Baker sneakers, you know?

20

But the opportunity to commemorate Annie Jump Cannon,

21

that opportunity is not going to present itself too

22

frequently to this committee, so we should grab it.

And if

And how many more coins
And how many more coins,

But the opportunity to commemorate the

So,

There will be plenty
And, yes, you

I mean, it was important to what happens,

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CHAIRMAN URAM:

Thank you, Don.

2

DR. KOTLOWSKI:

No. 5.

Dean?

It reminds me of in

3

the morning or late at night I check Google, and it's

4

the birthday of somebody who I never heard of, and all

5

of a sudden I learned something I didn't know.

6

I'm absolutely for No. 5.

7

that Don said.

8

saying and Sam about World War II.

9

angle is very important.

And so

I agree with everything

I also acknowledge what Mike was
I think the gender

And it's interesting, while

10

I'm absolutely for No. 5, I applaud them for picking 1

11

and 1A as No. 2, because I think these coins

12

underscore the idea that this was a woman.

13

nice thing about 1A, 1 and 1A, is you get a sense with

14

her clothing wear, what time period she was working

15

in.

16

straight do gender, because I didn't particularly like

17

No. 6.

18

what those stars and those letters are going to be,

19

and that one struck me as a little traditional, a

20

little stodgy, but No. 5.

And the

And I also have to applaud them, they didn't just

I don't think people are going to understand

21

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Thank you.

22

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Jeanne?

Thank you, Tom.

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to agree, when I received the portfolio, No. 4 and No.

2

5 sort of jumped out because they were just so

3

different and wonderful, but I have to go with No. 5

4

because it has everything we need.

5

much.
MS. LANNIN:

6

Thank you very

I, too, will vote for No. 5.

I

7

think it's an absolute stunning design.

8

as we're trying to get young girls interested in STEM,

9

that what a perfect thing to be able to look back at a

I think that

10

woman whose classifications are still in use today.

11

So, without question for me it's No. 5.

12
13

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Thank you.

Thank you, Mary.

Any other

discussion on Delaware at this point?

14

MR. WEINMAN:

We're just talking about

15

logistics.

16

go in each state, and then pass a note and we can

17

start working on them.

18

Maybe the best thing to do is vote as we

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Okay.

Now, Dava, Courtney,

19

anything further that you'd like to address to the

20

committee before we vote?

21
22

MS. STEWART:

This is Courtney from Delaware.

I just wanted to add that some of the comments that

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you all made was that highlighting a woman in science

2

was something the governor did want to highlight.

3

your comments were spot on.

4

at the beginning.

I should have added that

So, I just want to thank you.

CHAIRMAN URAM:

5

Okay.

Thank you very much

6

for all the time that both of you put in on the

7

project.

8

is a great start to this series and when you're

9

launching it.

11

And being the first state, I hope that this

So, congratulations.

MS. STEWART:

10

So,

Well, thank you very much.

You

all have a fantastic day.

12

CHAIRMAN URAM:

13

MS. SOBEL:

Thank you.

This is Dava speaking.

It was a

14

privilege to be consulted on this, and I am really

15

just glowing listening to the comments.

16

a great story, and I think it will be a story to offer

17

young women.

18

CHAIRMAN URAM:

19

well.

20

everyone to vote.

21

right along, then.

22

next state?

I think it's

Thank you for your time as

With that, we'll take a minute or so for
Okay, is everybody in?

Moving

April, would you like to do our

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MS. STAFFORD:

Absolutely.

Moving on to

2

Pennsylvania.

3

Great Depression and built in less than two years, the

4

Pennsylvania Turnpike was hailed as the nation's first

5

superhighway when it opened for automobile traffic on

6

October 1, 1940, and was a model for our nation's

7

interstate highway system.

8
9

The first concept conceived during the

Pennsylvania design 1 depicts the driver's
point of view of a 1940s vehicle while driving on the

10

Pennsylvania Turnpike.

11

"Pennsylvania Turnpike in 1940."

12

Inscriptions include

Pennsylvania design 2 mimics a 1940s

13

automobile steering wheel and dashboard with the

14

Pennsylvania Turnpike logo outlined in the center.

15

The additional inscription is "Pennsylvania Turnpike."

16

Design 3 mimics a 1940s automobile tire and a

17

wheel cap with the Pennsylvania Turnpike log outlined

18

in the center.

19

Pennsylvania designs 4 and 4A depict a

20

tollbooth operator welcoming the public to the

21

Pennsylvania Turnpike as a 1940s automobile enters the

22

tunnel in the background.

The additional inscription

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is "Pennsylvania Turnpike."

2

Designs 5, 5A and 6 feature a bird's eye view

3

of a highway interchange of the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

4

Design 5 also depicts the Pennsylvania Turnpike logo.

5

Pennsylvania design 7 depicts a smiling woman

6

in a 1940s convertible driving along the Pennsylvania

7

Turnpike.

8

depiction of the turnpike with a trumpet-style

9

interchange that characterized many of the original

Encircling the drawing is a stylized

10

1940s interchanges.

11

Turnpike" is shown in the style of linen postcards

12

common in the 1930s through the 1950s.

13

inscription "1940" indicates the year the turnpike

14

opened.

The inscription "Pennsylvania

The

15

Design 8 features the familiar keystone

16

shaped Penna Turnpike road sign pointing toward a

17

depiction of the turnpike showing the road's

18

remarkable features, passing through mountains via

19

road cuts making travel faster and safer.

20

the drawing is a stylized depiction of the turnpike

21

for the trumpet style interchange that characterized

22

many of the original 1940s interchanges.

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Pennsylvania designs 9 and 10 depict a bird's

2

eye view of a busy interchange along the Pennsylvania

3

Turnpike.

4

turnpike, while design 10 features the traditional

5

two-lane roads.

6

conveys a sense of continual motion, like traffic,

7

while symbolizing the ideas of transportation,

8

invention and progress.

9

are "Pennsylvania Turnpike" and "Since 1940."

10

Design 9 features a modern view of the

The large wheel inside the ramp loop

The additional inscriptions

The second concept for Pennsylvania.

In

11

1953, the University of Pennsylvania announced that

12

Dr. Jonas Salk and his team had discovered a vaccine

13

they believed could prevent polio, a devastating

14

disease which disproportionately affected children and

15

young adults, and left many of its victims paralyzed

16

and unable to walk.

17

Pennsylvania design 11 depicts an artist's

18

conception of the poliovirus at three different levels

19

of magnification, along with a silhouette of a period

20

microscope, representing the extensive research that

21

was conducted to develop a cure for polio.

22

additional inscriptions are "Polio Vaccine" and

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"1953."

2

Design 13 depicts a child receiving a

3

vaccination and features the inscription "Polio

4

Vaccine."

5

Pennsylvania design 16 features a child

6

running with a kite and a shield with the words "Polio

7

Vaccine 1953."

8

protection from polio, and the globe represents the

9

international success of the vaccine.

10

The shield represents the defense and

Pennsylvania design 18 depicts a young girl

11

wearing old-fashioned leg braces and using crutches,

12

representing those afflicted by the poliovirus.

13

additional inscription is "Polio Vaccine."

14

The

Design 19 represents the before and after of

15

the polio vaccine divided by the image of a syringe

16

and bottle.

17

the left side of the design.

18

children play basketball.

19

is "Polio Vaccine."

20

A now obsolete iron lung is depicted on
On the right, two

The additional inscription

Pennsylvania design 20 depicts a caduceus,

21

often used as the symbol of medicine, formed around a

22

vaccination syringe with a rotating drum-style test

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tube rack in the background, representing the

2

development of the polio vaccine and the strong

3

history of medical innovation in Pennsylvania.

4

additional inscription is "Polio Vaccine."

The

And the last design concept for Pennsylvania.

5
6

Pennsylvania's history includes an extensive list of

7

medical innovations, starting with the creating of the

8

nation's first public hospital in Philadelphia with

9

help from Benjamin Franklin in 1751.

Pennsylvania

10

Hospital was founded to care for those in the city who

11

could not afford private medical care in their homes.

12

Pennsylvania design 21 depicts the rod of

13

Asclepius.

14

healing.

15

the creating of Pennsylvania Hospital, the nation's

16

first public hospital.

17

any preferences from the governor's office, as well as

18

introduce our subject matter experts.

19

Asclepius is the Greek god of medicine and
The additional inscription "1751" represents

MS. SULLIVAN:

I'll now ask Megan to share

I'm actually going to hand it

20

off to one of my liaisons, who I know is on the phone.

21

Julia, would you like to introduce yourself and your

22

team?

And if you have comments from the governor and

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team, feel free to share those as well.

2

MS. BRINJAC:

Certainly.

My name is Julia

3

Brinjac.

4

Pennsylvania Department of Banking and Securities.

5

don't know if anyone else from Pennsylvania was able

6

to make it on the call.

7

there?

8

these designs are sent to the governor's office for

9

review.

I'm the deputy policy director at
I

Curt or Carl, are you guys

Okay, I guess it's just me.

So, we -- all

We had some concerns about both the

10

historical accuracy of some of these designs, as well

11

as some sensitivities to our current environment.

12

it's easier, I could run through -- I have actually

13

out in front of me -- I can run through some of the

14

concerns we have for certain designs, and then give

15

you our preferences.

16
17

If

Does that work?

CHAIRMAN URAM:

That will be fine.

Preferences would be ideal first.

18

MS. BRINJAC:

Sure.

Preferences, we've

19

selected for the turnpike No. 8.

20

is the best depiction of the Pennsylvania Turnpike and

21

also the most historically accurate.

22

polio vaccine we selected No. 11.

We believe that that

And for the

We believe that

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that is also the most historically accurate and also

2

culturally sensitive.

3

concerns regarding the syringe and our ongoing

4

epidemic with heroin in the state and opioid use,

5

which is why we generally prefer that one for the

6

polio vaccine.

7

At this time we had a lot of

For the rest of them, so, like, No. 1, we

8

think that it's not a very good depiction of the

9

turnpike.

The landscape isn't accurate.

And then for

10

2 and 3, those don't really -- while they are accurate

11

to the time, we don't feel that they accurately

12

represent anything about the turnpike in particular.

13

4 and 4A, we think that's a little bit of a

14

narrow view on the turnpike.

15

it's just the tunnel system, when in reality it is a

16

massive superhighway that leads through a bunch of

17

different landscapes in Pennsylvania.

18

It makes it look like

For the four-leaf clover designs, 5, 5A and

19

6, while that's also a piece of the turnpike, it's not

20

very representative of what the turnpike looks like.

21

And then for 7, we think that the woman in

22

the foreground kind of crowds out the turnpike, which

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should be the hallmark, the main focus of the design,

2

we feel, for Pennsylvania.

3

And then 9 and 10 for the turnpike, again, it

4

doesn't really evoke much about Pennsylvania Turnpike.

5

To us it's a little bit crowded and cluttered and

6

we're not quite sure what we're looking at, from our

7

point of view.

8
9

And then by and large for the polio vaccine,
outside of No. 11, we feel some of these are a little

10

culturally insensitive, especially No. 19.

11

for the hospital, we feel like No. 21 is a little bit

12

too generalized.

13

the context of the hospital system.

14

we would be great with either 11 or 8, although we do

15

-- I'd like to point out that there are some

16

implications -- I know after talking about Delaware,

17

which is reflecting a woman and how important that is

18

with what we're seeing right now with vaccination

19

issues in the media, I didn't know if that was

20

something to take into consideration when expressing

21

the polio vaccine concept.

22

And then

1751 doesn't mean anything without

CHAIRMAN URAM:

That being said,

Okay, Julia, thank you very

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much.

Anything else?

2

discussion, and I'll call on Sam first.

3

MR. GILL:

Okay.

Well, let's start our

Well, she chose the two that I

4

would choose for the turnpike or the polio, and it

5

depends on where you want to go with this.

6

insurance of the impact on society, polio vaccine is

7

far and away impacted everybody around this table.

8

And so if you want to go that way, that's fine.

9

you want to do something that's prettier and still

The

If

10

interesting, you do the turnpike.

11

to weigh on the side of what impacts people the most,

12

and I would weigh on the polio one, but I'm good with

13

either one.

14
15

CHAIRMAN URAM:

So, my -- I'm going

Okay, Sam, thank you.

Michael?

16

MR. MORAN:

Again, we have two things.

In

17

this case, I don't need help; it's clearly -- polio is

18

the more important one and that's where I'll choose

19

it.

20

several of those designs that were really innovative

21

on the turnpike side of it.

22

talent in the right direction when we give them the

I will also point out, though, that there were

Are we directing our

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lesser thing, utilizing our talent in the best way?

2

Anyway, I agree with the lady, No. 11.

3

though, that we are into a situation with the opioids

4

and the heroin use -- being from Kentucky, I'm around

5

it all the time -- because I happen to like No. 10.

6

So, I think it's innovative, but I will -- not 10 --

7

put my glasses on -- 20.

8

CHAIRMAN URAM:

9

I'm sorry,

No. 11.
Okay, Michael, thank you.

Robert?
MR. HOGE:

10

I actually like both 8 and 11

11

quite a bit, too.

12

bit flat.

13

than it would be on No. 8, although I like the concept

14

of the magnification of different levels.

15

comfortable with either one of these.

I'm afraid that No. 11 might be a

It's probably less opportunity for relief

16

CHAIRMAN URAM:

17

MS. SALMON:

Thank you.

choice for polio.

19

because of its more abstract design.

20

interpreted properly.

22

Robin?

I did go with No. 11 as my first

18

21

So, I'd be

I also liked No. 8 -- No. 3,
And I think it's

It has a much broader reach.

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Thank you.

Appreciate it.

Donald?

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MR. SCARINCI:

Thank you, Robin.

I mean, No.

2

3 is awesome.

3

would have picked if we were all with the turnpike.

4

And the artist deserves a lot of credit for No. 3.

5

think just to be clear to the artists who are doing

6

this, notice no one's talking about No. 4.

7

really, No. 8, while it's pretty as a picture, isn't

8

really going to make a coin that's very contemporary

9

or interesting.

It's an awesome design and it's what I

I

And,

It's just going to make a picture on

10

a coin.

11

medal.

12

are kind of interesting and would make fascinating

13

coins.

14

turnpike coins, and as irresistible as that is, you

15

know, clearly polio, which is more -- I mean, there is

16

no question what's more important, the turnpike or

17

polio?

18

side that polio is more important than the turnpike.

19

Turnpike -- not to minimize the importance of the

20

turnpike, but polio is more important than the

21

turnpike.

22

It's just going to look like a picture on a
Graphically, I think 10, you know, 9 and 10

So, it's irresistible to go with some of these

And you really kind of have to weigh on the

So, if you're looking at the polio coins, my

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money is on Ron, that he's going to make 11 into a

2

really pretty coin.

3

coin, and I understand that some people might not see

4

it in the graphics, but that microscope is a shadow,

5

and I think Ron is going to make this into something

6

really cool.

It has the elements of a pretty

He's not here --

7

MR. MENNA:

8

MR. SCARINCI:

9

hear.

All right.

Maybe your chief engraver.
Yes, that's what I want to

The new chief engraver is going to

10

do a miracle with this coin.

11

coin.

12

MR. MENNA:

13

MR. SCARINCI:

It's going to be a great

Let me walk that back.
I walk that back.

It's going

14

to be -- this is going to be a great coin.

15

think this is the coin.

16

great coin.

17

not seeing is -- you're looking at a picture; you're

18

looking at a graphic.

19

dimensional object.

20

polio is more important than the turnpike, you know,

21

obviously for a lot of humans.

22

So, I

I think it's going to be a

I think it just doesn't -- what you're

You're not looking at a threeYou know, and clearly I think the

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Thank you, Don.

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DR. KOTLOWSKI:

This is going to be a little

2

bit of a mishmash of what everyone said.

3

for No. 11.

4

voted for No. 20, because it has the look and feel of

5

a coin, but again, I'm sensitive to the cultural

6

sensitivity issue, so my vote is for No. 11.

7

not tremendously impressed with No. 8 for reasons that

8

were said.

9

point, and the ones that have the people on these

I'm voting

But, like Mike, I probably would have

I was

I do think it is more of a picture on that

10

coins, too, I feel the same way.

11

for a Pennsylvania Turnpike coin, and I won't, I would

12

definitely vote for No. 3, because it's cool.

13

who loves cars, would think that is really cool the

14

way that is.

15

the line here, from the governor's office?

If I were to vote

My dad,

Is our colleague from Pennsylvania on

16

MS. STAFFORD:

17

DR. KOTLOWSKI:

Yes, Julia.
Yeah, hi.

I'm not trying to

18

create any controversy in my first meeting, but I am a

19

native of New York City, and we were always told that

20

Thomas E. Dewey's Thruway was the model for the

21

interstate highway system.

22

there because I'll bet there are other states that

And I would throw that in

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would kind of claim that they were the innovators of

2

what is today the modern interstate highway system.

3

But, you know, it's just adding, I think, weight to

4

the argument in favor of polio.

5

CHAIRMAN URAM:

6

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Jeanne?
I'm fine.

Thank you,

7

Mr. Chairman.

8

was so intrigued with -- sorry, folks, No. 4 and No.

9

4A, that this was probably the most fun coin that we

When I opened this portfolio, I just

10

could mint.

11

logo on 4A; we have a happy person in a nice old car

12

going through tunnels, which are Pittsburgh-oriented.

13

Beyond the tunnels you see other kinds of landscape.

14

So, I like this very much because of its innovation.

15

I don't remember ever seeing anything quite so much

16

fun in stepping out of the seriousness that we often

17

take in the coinage.

18

sorry, Julia, I know this is your preference for

19

Pennsylvania Turnpike, but we've done so many America

20

the Beautiful coins with turnpikes and so forth that

21

it's almost repetitive.

22

was so intriguing to me, is that it was so innovative,

It was retro, it has, you know, turnpike

That said, clearly, No. 8, I'm

And I think that's why No. 4

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so unlike our America the Beautiful quarters.

2

And as for the polio concept, which is hugely

3

important.

4

lives, so I think it's quite nice, but we did a polio

5

dime not too long ago, and I think that although this

6

is a Pennsylvania Innovation, I would -- this is not

7

my preference.

It did save lives and it's still saving

Thank you.

8

CHAIRMAN URAM:

9

MS. LANNIN:

Okay.

Mary?

Well, Jeanne sort of echoed what

10

my feelings were.

11

designs was No. 3.

12

graphically very cool.

13

Pennsylvania there.

14

look like there was going to be too much texture on

15

it.

16

it got to the polio part of the portfolio, I went back

17

to thinking exactly what Jeanne thought, we've already

18

done this.

19

about in the paper, the Anti-Vax movement and all this

20

kind of controversy swirling around there.

21

me, design No. 3 represented wide open spaces and

22

promise and places to go and families, or

My actual favorite of all the
I just thought that that was
It got the logo of

It looked like a tire.

It didn't

I just thought that was a fabulous design.

When

And all the stuff that we've been reading

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transportation of, you know, products for business, or

2

whatever, and the polio vaccine is not only something

3

that we had already done, essentially, but came with

4

some kind of current negative news where people are

5

choosing erroneously to make unscientific claims about

6

what vaccines can do.

7

it saved so many lives, that was -- that sort of cast

8

a shadow on it for me.

9

Pennsylvania Turnpike school on this one.

10

So, that was more, even though

CHAIRMAN URAM:

So, I'm sort of with the
Thank you.

Thank you, Mary.

Okay, I'll

11

wrap it up.

12

and being a Rotarian for over 30-some years, and it's

13

Rotary's goal to eliminate polio from the entire

14

world, I'm obviously going to go with the polio

15

vaccine simply because it is a great triumph in

16

medical discovery for Pennsylvania.

17

I just -- Julia Bain (ph) from Pittsburg,

The turnpike, and I love the designs.

I

18

agree, there are a lot of great design here.

19

to see them back for another series of some sort.

20

thought that they were wonderful, especially the ones

21

that Jeanne and Mary mentioned.

22

liked to have seen, however, is it's too bad they used

I'd love
I

What I would have

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the needle and not the inoculation gun.

2

Dr. Hingson's patented inoculation gun, which was

3

really the idea that made mass inoculations possible,

4

that that really would have taken -- our design

5

choices over the needles could have been eliminated

6

had we gone that direction.

7

Had they used

So, having not done that and having our chief

8

engraver here tell us that he's going to make No. 11

9

spectacular, I have no doubt in my mind that he will.

10

And then one last thing -- so, I'm going to

11

go with that and I'm pleased, Julia, that Pennsylvania

12

did recognize polio and the accomplishment there.

13

has certainly changed a lot of things, plus all the

14

medical things that came afterwards because of it.

It

15

Now, one clarification on the turnpike.

The

16

turnpike is good, but it isn't -- Route 40 is the

17

national road.

18

the turnpike.

19

west before the turnpike.

20

were going to talk about this history significance of

21

the turnpike, it really should have been the national

22

road that would have been the first.

The original road was Route 40, not
So, that's the one that went east to
So, the actual -- if we

So, I just

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wanted to make that clarification.

2

But, Julia, thank you for your time.

Do you

3

have anything else that you'd like to add before we

4

vote?

5

MS. BRINJAC:

I do not.

I wanted to echo

6

that it was a pleasure working with Megan, and I am

7

very excited to see that Delaware design after that

8

robust conversation as well.

9

much.

10

CHAIRMAN URAM:

11

take a moment to vote.

12

go on to New Jersey?

13

MS. STAFFORD:

So, thank you all very

Super.

Okay, if we'd all

Okay, April would you like to

Yes, sir.

First concept for

14

New Jersey.

15

light bulb with a filament that could last 1,200

16

hours, marking the beginning of commercially

17

manufactured lightbulbs, giving people easy control

18

over light in homes, allowing businesses to employ

19

shift workers, and requiring a large power grid

20

creating jobs across the country.

21
22

Thomas Edison and his team developed a

New Jersey design 1 depicts an Edison bulb
against a backdrop of a cityscape illuminated with

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electric lights.

2

Electric Light."

3

The additional inscription is "The

New Jersey design 2 features an Edison-style

4

lightbulb with a circular array of buildings oriented

5

outwards as if they were rays of light.

6

arrangement of the cityscape suggests the

7

transformation and modernization of cities made

8

possible by the introduction and development of

9

electric light.

10

This radial

Designs 3 and 4 depict an Edison bulb set

11

against a dynamic and energized electrical field.

12

inscription "Perfecting the Filament" describes

13

Edison's innovation that made electrical light

14

commercially viable.
New Jersey designs 5 and 5A also depict an

15
16

Edison bulb with the inscription "Perfecting the

17

Filament."

18

representing the research and experimentation that

19

Edison and his team undertook while developing the

20

filament.

21
22

The

Design 5 features calculations

New Jersey design 6 depicts an Edison bulb
held up next to the Statue of Liberty's torch,

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representing the importance of the lightbulb in

2

American culture.
New Jersey design 7 features an Edison bulb

3
4

against an ornate background.
And, finally, New Jersey design 8 depicts

5
6

Edison's hand placing the first successful carbonized

7

element on the electric lamp.
New Jersey's second concept.

8
9

Prior to World

War I, New Jersey was the center of the motion picture

10

industry.

11

Kinetograph and Kinetoscope designed to show movies to

12

a single viewer.

13

developed a projector allowing films to be shown to

14

large audiences.

15

as the Black Maria, but also sent filmmakers around

16

the world.

17

The Edison Company developed the strip

Then, based upon other innovations,

The team built a movie studio known

New Jersey design 9 depicts a stylized Edison

18

Kinetoscope movie projector with motion pictures

19

displayed in an expanding beam of light emanating from

20

the projector.

21
22

Design 10 depicts an early Edison motion
picture camera viewed from the side.

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New Jersey design 11 depicts the Black Maria,

2

the first film production studio built on the grounds

3

of Edison's laboratories.

4

window in the ceiling to let in sunlight, and was

5

built on a turntable depicted here as a roll of 35

6

millimeter film, so it could be rotated towards the

7

sun.
New Jersey designs 12 and 13 depict a man

8
9

The studio had a large

using a Kinetophone, a version of the Kinetoscope,

10

developed by Edison's team.

11

first device to synchronize moving pictures with

12

sound.

13

of Motion Pictures."

The Kinetophone was the

The additional inscription is the "Birthplace

In design 12, a man is depicted on a movie

14
15

screen in front of an audience, representing the

16

impact of Edison Laboratories on the feature of the

17

American film industry.

18

In design 13, a clapperboard is shown in the

19

foreground, allowing for the synchronization of audio

20

and video.

21
22

New Jersey design 14 depicts the hands of a
person inspecting a strip of early motion picture

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film.

2

of the coin to view a reflection in the film creating

3

a dynamic interactive effect.

4

The polished film cells will allow the holder

And, finally, New Jersey design 15 depicts a

5

projector displaying the image of a woman dancing.

6

Behind the projector a stylized face represent the

7

thought process that went into the development of the

8

movie camera.

9

governor's representatives and information about our

10
11

Over to Megan for feedback from the

subject matter actually.
MS. SULLIVAN:

In the comments from the

12

governor's office, they have two preferred designs,

13

design 7 and design 9.

14

you on the phone?

15

MS. CURETON:

16

MS. SULLIVAN:

17
18

And on the phone, Sara, are

Yes, I am.
Would you like to introduce

yourself and say a few words?
MS. CURETON:

Sure.

I'm Sara Cureton from

19

the New Jersey Historical Commission, and I want to

20

note that the heavy lifting on this project actually

21

was undertaken by a state arts council.

22

representative is on vacation so could not be here.

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We identified for them two excellent subject matter

2

experts to provide input.

3

editor of the Thomas Edison Papers, and Tom Ross, who

4

is the superintendent for the National Park Service at

5

the Edison site here in New Jersey.

Paul Israel, who is the

And I just might add that, yes, indeed, those

6
7

two designs were picked on our end as the two we like

8

best.

9

degree of accuracy and were visually very appealing,

We felt that they, first of all, had a high

10

and both told the story of these two representative

11

innovations very well.

12

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Okay.

Thank you, April,

13

Megan and Sara.

14

couldn't be here today, but Don Scarinci is, so I will

15

yield and ask him to kick this off.

16

Well, the governor of New Jersey

MR. SCARINCI:

Well, New Jersey has actually

17

innovated many, many more things than the electric

18

lightbulb, but the electric lightbulb clearly could be

19

considered the single innovation since fire that

20

changed the world.

21

electric lightbulb trumps the motion pictures, because

22

obviously without the electric light there would be no

So, I would have to say that the

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motion pictures.

And while motion pictures are cool,

2

some day in the near future, if you've ever worn an

3

oculus, if you've ever used an oculus.

4

aren't going to watch motion pictures anymore, but,

5

but, we will always have lights.

6

absent a clear direction from the governor that says

7

we have to go with motion pictures, I would be

8

inclined to go with the lightbulb as our innovation.

Someday people

So, I think if

And I suppose once you make the decision to

9
10

go with the lightbulb, that's where I'm kind of

11

crumbling, because the art on these is not that

12

exciting to me.

13

else has to say, because I'm kind of hard-pressed to

14

pick one of these designs that I think stands out as

15

an art.

16

of hunky.

17

recommending No. 7?

18

So, I'd love to hear what everybody

They're all kind of hokey; they're all kind
So, which one -- I mean, I think you're
The state is recommending No. 7?

MS. CURETON:

The state is recommending No.

19

7.

If I may, I just might also point out that from

20

our perspective, from a teaching perspective, the

21

motion picture design actually might be a more

22

interesting story, since New Jersey's pivotal

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importance in the birth of the motion picture industry

2

is a story that is not well known.

3

MR. SCARINCI:

Except we no longer support

4

the motion picture industry in any real way, so what's

5

the point?

6

this leafing about?

7

I'm not understanding it.

8

this lightbulb?

9

What in the design of No. 7, what's all
I mean, what's going on in No. 7?
Is that a historical thing,

Could you explain it?

MS. CURETON:

And I apologize.

I was not in

10

on the discussions.

11

was.

12

discovery.

13

who actually worked directly with the designers on

14

this one?

My colleague, Daniel Bursk (ph)

It certainly evokes the period of Edison's
Do we have -- is anyone there from Mint

MS. STAFFORD:

15

Yes.

Megan Sullivan, our

16

design manager.

17

the design descriptions to indicate it.

18

think, placing it in a point in time and a decorative

19

element.

20

There's no specific information in

MS. SULLIVAN:

That's correct.

It was, I

It was a

21

decorative element from the artist, again, to place it

22

in point in time.

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2

MS. STAFFORD:

period, I believe, correctly.

3
4
5
6
7

It certainly evokes the

MR. SCARINCI:
to me?

Okay.

Why don't we come back

Let's hear what everyone else has to say.
CHAIRMAN URAM:

Okay, I'm going to -- thank

you, Don, and let Mary go.
MS. LANNIN:

Okay, I would like to cheerlead

8

for design No. 2, because I think it shows a lot of

9

innovation, Donald, and it's exciting.

It's got New

10

Jersey in the biggest possible types that we can do,

11

and it is -- it's world-changing, it's life-changing.

12

You go from eight hours of daylight in the winter to

13

being able to light something 24 hours a day.

14

the design; I think it's interesting.

15

it looks a lightbulb exploding out, like, a scrapbook

16

or stock certificates or -- I just -- it's very, very

17

puzzling to me.

18

the lightbulb designs.

19

I think No. 2 has the ability for some textural work

20

that can be done that I just know that Joe can work

21

his magic on that.

22

a counter, someone is going to pick it up to see what

I like

Design No. 7,

That really was my least favorite of
Sorry to have said that.

But

And that is a coin that if put on

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it is.

2

other lightbulbs.

3

I think it could be just a very cool coin.

And you can't really say that about any of the
There's a lot of negative space and

4

CHAIRMAN URAM:

5

MR. HOGE:

Thank you, Mary.

Thank you.
Robert?

I'm exactly with Mary on this.

I

6

think No. 2 is actually a spectacular design and I

7

think it would make a marvelous looking coin.

8

to oppose the motion picture thing, partly because my

9

great-great-grandfather built a motion picture machine

I have

10

in 1860 while the Kinematoscope, which was on display

11

in the Franklin Institute in Philadelphia.

12

Pennsylvania native.

He was a

So, lightbulbs for me.

13

CHAIRMAN URAM:

14

MS. SALMON:

Okay.

Robin?

I, too, like No. 2 for all the

15

reasons already cited.

16

can see a lot of great highs and lows there that will,

17

again, as you say, make people want to pick it up and

18

look at it.

19

designs.

20

the design.

But I also like 3 and 4.

I

To me, those are the three exciting

And I would also go with the lightbulb as

21

CHAIRMAN URAM:

22

MR. GILL:

Sam?

Thank you, Robin.

Well, I'm certainly supporting the

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lightbulb, and I like No. 2, and I wish there was a

2

way to incorporate language "The Electric Light" on

3

them.

4

might help.

5
6
7

Not that it doesn't jump out at us, but it

MS. LANNIN:

Everybody in the room who has

never seen a lightbulb raise your hand.
MR. GILL:

All right.

I'm just saying that

8

it might not jump out as clearly without "The Electric

9

Light," because that is what we're really talking

10

about here.

11

CHAIRMAN URAM:

12

MR. GILL:

13

CHAIRMAN URAM:

14

MR. MORAN:

Thank you, Sam.

Michael?

No. 1 looks like the original one.
Yeah.

I'm with the lightbulb.

I'm also

15

with No. 2.

16

is when you stop and think about what the lightbulb

17

did, one of the things in the Chicago World's Fair of

18

1893 that was a major faction was a pyramid of

19

lightbulbs.

20

society and civilization at that point in time, and

21

you can see what it led to.

22

buildings here, all these buildings, their utilization

The only thing I want to point out here

It was really earth shattering for

The way they pictured the

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had to have the lightbulb to get full utilization.

2

So, I like the symbolism.

3

don't think there's anything close to it.

I'm sucked in by it.

I

4

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Thank you, Michael.

Dean?

5

DR. KOTLOWSKI:

I vote for the lightbulb.

I

6

vote for No. 2.

7

little too busy, but Mary convinced me, and so I would

8

be for that.

9

No. 1 would have been nice, but I don't think we

I was a little worried it might be a

In terms of a more traditional design,

10

actually need the electric light at the top, and New

11

Jersey is very small.

12

transposed the two, but, no, No. 2 is for me.
CHAIRMAN URAM:

13
14

So, I almost would have

Thank you.

Thank you, Dean.

Jeanne?

15

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Thank you, Mr.

16

Chairman.

17

However, I think that Robin has a point that that coin

18

would be outstanding.

19

from the lightbulb would be making a really nice

20

statement of brightness and liveliness.

21

is good, but -- but, that being said, it's very

22

complicated to get all those little buildings in there

I agree with my colleagues very much.

I rote the fact that the waves

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with all the windows and so forth.

2

simplicity of No. 3 appeals to me more.

3

can be said to No. 5, but I think 3 with Joe's talent

4

could be great.

And the same

Thank you.

CHAIRMAN URAM:

5

I think that the

Thank you, Jeanne.

I too

6

think the lightbulb, and I felt the same way about No.

7

7.

8

was there, but the No. 2 does for me, I think, what

9

you guys were looking for in the turnpike.

It was just -- I couldn't figure out what it all

It has

10

that retro feel and that retro look to it, and it's

11

going to be a coin that's going to jump out of the

12

series.

13

will look at the entire series as we observe these,

14

and I think it brings a nice, fresh look and it's

15

clean.

16

comments?

17

So, you know, based on -- don't forget, we

So, I'm with No. 2 as well.

MR. SCARINCI:

Any other

So, Tom and Jeanne, maybe, can

18

I ask you, if you -- so, I guess the thinking in No. 2

19

is that the lightbulb lights up the world.

20

the thinking, that these buildings that are coming out

21

of the lightbulb are buildings from all over the

22

world?

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CHAIRMAN URAM:

2

MR. SCARINCI:

That's what it looks like.
So, and are we better off with

3

that, or if we eliminate some -- if we eliminate this

4

"Perfecting the Filament" in either 3 or 5, and 5

5

looks kind of interesting because it's got this, you

6

know, the formula, it's got the date in there, this

7

1879 date.

8

"Perfecting the Filament" in both of those, is that a

9

cleaner coin?

But if you eliminate the language

And is 2 a little too hokey?

I'm

10

concerned that 2 might be too hokey to have the

11

buildings emanating -- I mean, don't forget this is a

12

little guy.

This is a dollar.

13

little guy.

This is a little, you know, it's a little

14

guy, and are the buildings going to look too hokey?

15

And maybe it's a question for you, Joe.

16

You know, it's a

If it's a choice between the buildings coming

17

out of the lightbulb or, you know, these squiggly

18

lines symbolizing energy, or no squiggly line and

19

instead No. 5, with the formula, and whether we go

20

with 3 or 5, eliminate "Perfecting the Filament,"

21

because that doesn't really need to be there at all.

22

MS. STAFFORD:

Mr. Scarinci, I'm sorry.

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design 3, Megan had some feedback from the subject

2

matter experts that might help the conversation.

3

MR. SCARINCI:

Good.

Perfect.

4

MS. SULLIVAN:

Sure.

I just wanted to add,

5

on No. 3, one of the comments we did receive was that

6

the lines in the background made it look like a

7

flickering light, and one of the very important things

8

about the lightbulb was that it was not flickering,

9

like kerosene or a flame, that it was a solid light.

10

So, that was one of their concerns with this design.

11

MR. SCARINCI:

Oh, good.

So, we can

12

eliminate 3.

13

possibly?

14

without "Perfecting the Filament" versus 2.

15

do you think, Joe?

16

So, then you can be talking about 5,

So, we can talk about 5 versus 2.

MR. MENNA:

So, 5
So, what

I think if I wanted to have an

17

easy week I'd pick 5, but I think I'm going to have a

18

more complicated week the various structural

19

challenge, which I realize something that could be

20

very robust even within the size of the dollar coin,

21

and we've been sculpting dollar coins since, well,

22

I've been doing it for 14 years and am very familiar

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with the palette, so is the rest of the team.

2

we could do a great job.

3
4

MR. SCARINCI:

I think

And you think it would make a

nice coin?

5

MR. MENNA:

I think I do.

I think it's

6

challenging, the scale, the windows, obviously.

7

don't mean that in a patronizing way.

8

scale of the windows would be a challenge, but we

9

could denote those in a way where they would be

I

I think the

10

readable.

11

pull off the building properly, another week (ph)

12

we're going to have dimensions, I think it could be an

13

interesting exercise if successfully sculpted, and I

14

feel fully confident in the team that Ron's assembled

15

that we could do that.

16
17

I think that they would have a -- if we

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Thank you, Joe.

anything further?

18

MR. SCARINCI:

19

CHAIRMAN URAM:

That's it.
Thank you.

20

cast their vote?

21

like to move us to Georgia?

22

Donald,

Thank you.

MS. STAFFORD:

Okay.

Would everyone
April, would you

Yes, sir, absolutely.

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state of Georgia has a single concept.

In the early

2

1730s, James Oglethorpe established the Trustees'

3

Garden, the first agricultural experimental garden in

4

America.

5

of the Trustees' Garden in the center, a griddled

6

landscape with orange trees lining the walkways --

7

sorry, a gridded landscape with orange trees lining

8

the walkways.

9

inscription "Trustees' Garden," in a rough edge

Georgia design 1 depicts a simplified view

And circling the landscape is the

10

typeface reminiscent of printed materials from the

11

1700s.

12

species known to have been cultivated in the garden --

13

flax, olive, peaches, sassafras, grapes and white

14

mulberry.

Surrounding the landscape are six different

15

Georgia design 2 depicts a hand planting

16

seeds and the inscription "Trustees' Garden," from

17

which grows a variety of species representing a

18

variety of plants grown in the garden, and orange tree

19

seedlings, sassafras, grapes, white mulberry, flax,

20

peaches, olive, and a young shoot too small to be

21

identified.

22

Georgia design 3 depicts a halved peach

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overlapped by a cotton bud in open bloom, representing

2

two important crops developed in the Trustees' Garden.

3

The 13 stars represent the original 13 colonies.

4

additional inscriptions are "The Trustees' Garden" and

5

"1734," the year the garden was established.

The

George designs 4 and 5 depict a sling made of

6
7

two sashes -- a cotton sash knotted around a cotton

8

branch, and a silk sash knotted around a mulberry

9

branch.

The sling is full of plants harvested from

10

the Trustees' Garden.

11

peaches, grapes and smooth sumac.

12

design 5 also features a stylized version of the

13

Trustees' Garden with rectangular plots lined by

14

orange trees and set by the Savannah River.

15

additional inscription is Trustees' Garden.

16

Jesuit bark, olives, oranges,
The background in

The

And, finally, George design 6 depicts a

17

farmer picking a ripe peach from a tree grown in the

18

Trustees' Garden.

19

freshly picked peaches.

20

Below the tree sits baskets of

And here with information on the governor's

21

representatives preferences and our subject matter

22

experts is Megan.

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MS. SULLIVAN:

I have a letter from Governor

2

Kemp listing the top three preferences and some

3

reasons behind those.

4

design 1, as it best demonstrates the innovation

5

behind the garden, and it reflects the importance of

6

agriculture, which is Georgia's oldest and largest

7

industry, and it also highlights the diversity of the

8

Trustees' Garden.

The first preferred design is

The second choice is design 6, which

9
10

showcases George's nickname as The Peach State, and

11

focuses on the importance of agriculture, but it does

12

not incorporate the Trustees' Garden.

13
14

And the third choice is design 3, because it
is well designed and it is symbolically meaningful.

15

I do believe I have a few people on the

16

phone.

I believe, Rhonda, are you on the line and, if

17

so, would you like to introduce yourself?

18

her a couple of minutes.

19

able to dial in?

20

MS. BARNES:

21

MS. SULLIVAN:

22

We'll give

Luciana or Jackie, were you

Hi, this is Rhonda.
Hi, Rhonda.

Would you like to

introduce yourself?

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MS. BARNES:

Yes, this is Rhonda Barnes.

I'm

2

with Governor Kemp's office here in Georgia, and have

3

been working with Governor Kemp and transitioning from

4

Governor Deal to Governor Kemp in this process.

5

MS. SULLIVAN:

Thank you, Rhonda.

And I just

6

want to say Rhonda's been great in helping with that

7

transition, so we have been working with two different

8

governors on this process.

9
10
11

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Thank you.
Okay, thank you.

In looking

over the decides, Robert, would you like to start?
MR. HOGE:

Sure.

First of all, I think Nos.

12

4 and 5 descriptions were transposed.

13

these, actually, in spite of the preferences is No. 2.

14

I think you could have a nice looking script relating

15

perhaps to the time period of the foundation of the

16

Trustees' Garden shown there.

17

to me that maybe that little seed in the U of

18

"Trustees" could be a good location for a little mark

19

to sneak in there.

20

attractive designs.

21

little bit too prosaic.

22

looks like it's ready to have an inscription added in

My favorite of

And, also, it occurred

It would be a tiny one.

These are

I think that No. 5 is probably a
With all that empty space, it

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there as an engraved name, as an award or something.

2

And the stylized trees along the edge in No. 4, which

3

is described as No. 5 by the ship, probably have less

4

realism than the fruits in the sling at the front.

5

And I don't think we can tell the difference between

6

the silk and the cotton and fabrics of the material,

7

either.

8

kind of like the feel of No. 2.

9

some open space around the inscriptions and it shows

At any rate, these are pretty designs.

I

As I said, it has

10

the principal plants, and having a hand with a seed in

11

there I think is kind of a nice touch.

12

CHAIRMAN URAM:

13

MS. SALMON:

Thank you, Robert.

Robin?

Yeah, they're all beautiful

14

designs.

15

easier to translate into a coin.

16

lot of symbolism that I think would be important to

17

include.

18

like.

I like No. 2.

I think that it might be the
No. 3, though, has a

So, once again, I'm torn, but 2 and 3 I

19

CHAIRMAN URAM:

20

MR. GILL:

Thank you.

I like No. 3.

Sam, you're up.
I like the

21

symbolism, all of the symbolism.

I think it's very

22

pretty and very -- laid out nicely.

So, that's my

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vote.

2 would be nice, too; so would 1.

2
3

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Okay.

Michael?

Thank you,

Sam.
MR. MORAN:

4

3 and 2.

I'm a little concerned

5

when you look at 3, that the cotton ball is going to

6

look more like a peach pit.

7

can we -- is it going to look like a peach pit?
MR. MENNA:

8
9

That concerns me.

Joe,

I nodded my head in assent as

soon as he said that.

10

MR. MORAN:

That means I vote for No. 2.

11

CHAIRMAN URAM:

12

MR. SCARINCI:

Yes, sir.

Donald?

Did Georgia need more time to

13

do this?

14

Georgia did invent the cotton gin and -- no, I think

15

it was Georgia, and Wesleyan College was the first

16

college chartered to give degrees to women,

17

innovation, right?

18

guess I'm a little less embarrassed about the

19

lightbulb from New Jersey.

I mean, is this all we got?

I mean, is this all we got?

20

MR. GILL:

21

CHAIRMAN URAM:

22

something.

I mean, because

You could have a peanut.
Sam, you might be onto

Don, is that it or --

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MR. SCARINCI:

2

CHAIRMAN URAM:

3

Just checking.

MR. SCARINCI:

We got a little fruit and

flowers, so, yeah, go for it.

6

CHAIRMAN URAM:

7

you got a follow him, so go ahead.

8

DR. KOTLOWSKI:

9

I may be in a

little trouble cutting people off today.

4
5

Yeah, that's it.

All right.

All right.

Dean,

Well, I have to say I shared

some of the sentiments a little earlier.

Maybe we're

10

getting spoiled.

11

becoming sort of a -- I wonder what we're going to do

12

when we get to New York, or something like that.

13

to be parochial here.

14

pretty strongly for 3, and I'm not trying to be funny

15

here, really, until I figured out that that wasn't the

16

peach pit.

17

when you choose, like, titles of your articles or

18

books, or when you're lecturing, if you can't be

19

cleverly clear, and maybe there's something that can

20

be -- there's clear symbolism.

21

coin.

22

We only had one concept and two is

I have -- you know what?

I'm actually serious.

Not
I was

But I still think

That looks like a

I mean, it's very traditional.
I'm a little worried about No. 6, because if

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we get the idea this is the Trustees' Gardens of 1734,

2

the person who might be the hand here that might be

3

picking that, might be an enslaved person, and I

4

wonder if we're on the issue of cultural sensitivity.

5

And then No. 4 and No. 5, I just think are too busy.

6

I was going to vote for No. 3, but I'm going to listen

7

to what people have with -- I might go with No. 2.

8

I'm really -- I think No. 1, I'm hearing a lot of very

9

good stuff today about how we've done a lot of America

10

the beautiful sort of scenery stuff, and I really

11

wonder -- I have to take a look at those coins again -

12

- how well that all works.

13

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

14

DR. KOTLOWSKI:

They were pretty.

Yeah, okay.

All right, I'll

15

take your word for it.

16

history, the ones from the 1930s, the national parks,

17

they were really beautiful, a popular series.

I know the stamps collecting

18

CHAIRMAN URAM:

19

MR. MENNA:

Jeanne?

If I could just follow up on

20

that, if you don't mind?

One thing would be the first

21

national -- with America the Beautiful parks and state

22

parks the year before that, and when we wandered in

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the territory of collage and things like that, things

2

didn't work so well.

3

that are very well composed and give you a full image,

4

I mean, they tend to work well.

5

sorry about that.

But when we had images like this

6

CHAIRMAN URAM:

7

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

So, just, you know,

Thank you, Joe.

Jeanne?

Thank you.

I was first

8

struck by No. 1, and I know I have to agree with Dean,

9

another garden thing.

But it was quite -- it's quite

10

beautiful.

11

distinguish the peaches and, you know, the little

12

grapes and mulberries and so forth.

13

way this garden, it's kind of like a stamp, so I liked

14

that very much.

15

think, was kind of innovative because the letters

16

became the plants, and that's kind of a nice little

17

touch.

18

lettering with the garden, Trustees' Garden, is not so

19

precise as the rest of the text.

20

very much.

It's a beautiful piece, and you could

Surrounded by the

And I also like No. 2.

No. 2, I

That's something we haven't seen in the

So, I enjoyed that

21

No. 3, I have to agree with my colleagues,

22

that it does look like a pit, but there's two things

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that could be done.

The flower could be moved to the

2

side, and then you don't have the sense of it being in

3

the center as a pit.

4

could make it a little fluffy, then we wouldn't have a

5

pit thing.

6

was powerful and simple.

7

not going to talk about those.

8

Thank you.

If our artists or chief engraver

So, I'm going to this design because it

CHAIRMAN URAM:

9
10

MS. LANNIN:

As far as 4, 5 and 6, I'm
Just not as important.

Thank you, Jeanne.

My favorite was No. 2.

Mary?
I do

11

like the fact that the plants seem to be growing out

12

of a fairly rustic typeface, and I love dropping the

13

seeds into the letter U, just like it's a little pot

14

to grow.

15

looked like you can see a large variety of crops, and

16

it just reinforced by the word "Garden."

17

and away my favorite.

18

nice things with No. 1, but the simplicity of 2 I

19

liked.

20

which looks like a really disastrous peach pit and

21

that there's something wrong.

22

stars, and all I could think of was, like, a judging

And the hand looked good to me on this.

It

This is far

I think that we could do some

No. 3, I cannot get past the cotton boll,

And then there were 13

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thing, awarding something at a state fair.

2

the most perfectly size peach, so it got 13 stars.

3

don't know.

But definitely for me No. 2.

CHAIRMAN URAM:

4

Thank you, Mary.

This was
I

Thank you.
And just,

5

in listening to everyone's conversation, I too think

6

No. 2 is -- can be a nice, clean, crisp design, and I

7

gave points to some of the other ones as well, but I

8

favor design No. 2.

9

So, with that, if everyone would please vote

10

and then why don't we take -- do you need a 15-minute

11

recess or so while you tabulate?

12

okay.

Ten minutes?

Ten,

Okay, we're reconvening and I will call on

13
14

Greg for the tallies for the State Innovation Series.

15

Greg?

16

MR. WEINMAN:

We have the scoresheet

17

summaries.

18

comes back on the board.

19

received 3 votes.

20

people voting, so 13 would be a score.

It would be

21

50% plus 1, would be 13 at this point.

So, No. 1, 3;

22

2 received 1 vote; 3 received 1 vote; 4 received 3

Okay.

We'll start with Delaware, as it
Okay.

Design No. 1 had

By the way, I think we have 9

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votes; 5 received 25 votes, which is not surprising it

2

was the top vote-getter; 6 received 1; 7 received 2;

3

8, 9 and 10 all received 1; 11 received 2; 12 received

4

0; 13 received 1, and the remainder received 0.

5

design No. 5 would be your recommendation unless by

6

motion otherwise.

7

Pennsylvania?

Would you like to move on to

8

CHAIRMAN URAM:

9

MR. WEINMAN:

Sure.
Okay.

Pennsylvania.

10

No. 1 received 3 votes.

11

votes.

12

received 3.

Design No. 4A received 3.

13

received 2.

5A received 2.

14

received 0.

Design 8 received 4.

15

1.

16

votes, making it the top vote-getter.

17

and 18 and 19 all received 0.

18

vote.

19

So,

Design

Design No. 2 received 2

Design No. 3 received 11 votes.

Design 10 received 1.

Design No. 4
Design 5

6 received 2.

Design 7

Design 9 received

Design 11 received 23
Design 13, 16

Design 20 received 1

Design 21 received 0.
Once again, the top voter and your

20

recommendation unless noted otherwise will be design

21

11.

22

Let's move on to New Jersey.
New Jersey.

Design 1 received 5 votes.

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Design 2 received 24 votes, which is the top vote-

2

getter and your recommendation unless otherwise,

3

because both 3s received 4, and 4 received 1.

4

received 3.

5

2.

6

And then 15 received 0.

5A, 6, 7, 8 all received 0.

The next four received 0.

9 received

Design 14 received 3.

Moving on to Georgia.

Design 1 received 8 votes.

7

5

Design 2 received

8

24, and that would be your recommendation.

9

received 10 votes.

Design 4 received 0.

Design 3
Design 5

10

received 3, and design 6 received 1.

11

recommendation unless otherwise noted would be design

12

No. 2.
CHAIRMAN URAM:

13

Okay.

Therefore, your

Thank you, Greg.

14

we have, in summary, Delaware, No. 5; Pennsylvania,

15

No. 11; New Jersey, No. 2; and Georgia No. 2.

16

vote totals were very significant apart from the

17

others.

18

them all as a group?

So,

The

Would anyone like to make a motion to accept

19

MR. HOGE:

I'll so move.

20

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Robert.

21

DR. KOTLOWSKI:

I'll second.

22

CHAIRMAN URAM:

Second by Dean.

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favor say aye.

2

objections I should ask, huh?

3

yes on that.

4

No?

Seeing none, motion passes.

Any

I think everybody voted

Well, that brings us to the conclusion of our

5

day today in regards to our meeting purpose.

6

to thank everyone for their participation this

7

morning, and even more so this afternoon.

8

you, though, that we are going to have an

9

administrative meeting at 9 a.m. that's been added to

I want

I will tell

10

the agenda for the directors available and continue

11

some dialogue in regards to what we started this

12

morning.

13

we're here as a group and his schedule was free, or at

14

least he was able to adjust his schedule accordingly.

15

So, with that we will be -- a motion to recess at this

16

time.

17

a.m. for the public meeting.

18

So, I thought that was really good since

We are in recess until tomorrow morning at 10

(Meeting adjourned at 3:12 p.m.)

19
20
21
22

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1
2

CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC
I, NATE RIVENESS, the officer before whom the

3

foregoing proceedings were taken, do hereby certify

4

that any witness(es) in the foregoing proceedings,

5

prior to testifying, were duly sworn; that the

6

proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter reduced

7

to typewriting by a qualified transcriptionist; that

8

said digital audio recording of said proceedings are a

9

true and accurate record to the best of my knowledge,

10

skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for,

11

related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the

12

action in which this was taken; and, further, that I

13

am not a relative or employee of any counsel or

14

attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor

15

financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of

16

this action.

17

<%14843,Signature%>

18

NATE RIVENESS

19

Notary Public in and for the

20

District of Columbia

21
22

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2

CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER
I, SANDRA TELLER, do hereby certify that this

3

transcript was prepared from the digital audio

4

recording of the foregoing proceeding, that said

5

transcript is a true and accurate record of the

6

proceedings to the best of my knowledge, skills, and

7

ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to,

8

nor employed by any of the parties to the action in

9

which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a

10

relative or employee of any counsel or attorney

11

employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or

12

otherwise interested in the outcome of this action.

13
14
15

<%14826,Signature%>
SANDRA TELLER

16
17
18
19
20
21
22

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Page 1
1

CITIZEN COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE

2

PUBLIC MEETING

3

Wednesday, April 17, 2019

4

10:00 a.m. - 12:00 p.m.

5
United States Mint

6
7

2nd Floor Conference Room

8

801 9th Street, N.W.

9

Washington, D.C. 20220

10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18

Reported By:

Nata Riveness

19
20
21
22

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MR. URAM:

Welcome back everyone to the --

2

our second day meeting here for the Citizens Coinage

3

Advisory Committee.

4

At this time, I’d also to recognize Jovita Carranza,

5

the Treasurer of the United States.

6

for being with us.

I call our meeting back to order.

7

MS. CARRANZA:

8

MR. URGAM:

9

Thank you again

Thank you, glad to be here.

Today the Committee will review

the (inaudible)candidate designs for the 2021-2025

10

American Eagle Platinum Eagle Program.

11

begin, are any members of the press in attendance

12

today or on the phone?

13

name please for the record.

14

else?

16

MS. STAFFORD:

18

MR. WEINMAN:

20

Hearing none, anyone

To the Mint Staff, any

Announcements?

17

19

You need to speak and say your

Okay, thank you.

15

Before we

No.
Do we get numbers in the front

of it?
MR. URAM:

No, I know that Eric’s been down

21

to it in the Dennis State Office.

Okay, before we

22

move to our Agenda, the first order of business for

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this Committee is the presentation of the United

2

States Mint Public Service Awards, and our Director

3

David Ryder will present these awards to Heidi

4

Wastweet as well as Herman Viola.

5

some encouragement.

6

MR. RYDER:

Let’s give them

I’m going to start with Heidi,

7

she’s actually coming down right this minute, she’s on

8

her way down to see us, so I’m just going to have to

9

wait a minute.

Is she on her way down now?

10

MR. URAM:

This is where you --

11

MS. SULLIVAN:

12

MR. RYDER:

Yes, she is.

She is.

Well yesterday I’m told

13

the meeting went very well and I’m very thankful for

14

everybody here and on the phone for doing another

15

great job for the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee.

16

A lot of designs and interesting things we’ve looked

17

at, but it looks to me like you guys did another

18

outstanding job of picking the right -- the right --

19

the right material.

20

Does anybody have any questions for me?

21

MR. URAM:

22

No, everybody should just be down

at the, you know, after the meeting’s over to pick up

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their Silver Proof Sets that come out today.

2

those of you who don’t know, the Silver Proof Sets

3

come out today with the special reversed one cent --

4

oh, by the way in Pittsburgh, I got all kinds of heat.

5

We’re not to call it the penny, we’re excited to be on

6

the cent.

7

saying penny, so we really have to be careful that

8

we’re still the cent.

And George liked to roll over me about

MR. RYDER:

9

So, for

I was the one who received the

10

biggest trouble.

11

couple of the members who corrected me, one was a

12

teacher.

13
14

I was admonished several times by a

MR. URAM:

Oh yeah, after they were done with

you, they came to me.

15

MR. RYDER:

16

MR. URAM:

Oh, so it’s the cent.
I think both of us did the same

17

thing, so, but anyhow, there is a reverse proof set

18

tonight, or today at noon time, so --

19
20

MR. RYDER:

office this morning and from my point it’s beautiful.

21
22

I saw someone brought it to my

MR. URAM:

It was a great presentation, I

guess.

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MR. SCARINCI:

So, wait, I just have to add,

2

everyone on the Committee should be sure they’re using

3

the standing order option because you can have a

4

standing order for the proof set that comes to you

5

automatically, and if you don’t know that, for

6

purposes of everyone who’s covering this meeting and

7

listening, you can exercise the standing order option

8

and it comes to you automatically when it’s issued and

9

you don’t have to worry about missing the opportunity

10

to buy it and you can do that for a number of new

11

products.

12
13

And everyone on the Committee should be sure
that they’re using the option.

14

MR. URAM:

15

MR. SCARINCI:

16

MR. RYDER:

17

Thank you Don.
That’s a commercial.

A commercial on behalf of a

Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee.

18

MR. SCARINCI:

19

MR. RYDER:

That’s right.

So, I’m here to hand out two

20

special awards and the first award is going to go to

21

Heidi and what I did with you two, is I asked the

22

staff to give me some very specific comments about

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your ability and the job that you guys have done.

2

So, I’m going to read specifically what the

3

U.S. Mint Staff thinks about you guys and it’s very

4

nice.

5

MS. WASTWEET:

6

MR. RYDER:

We’re in trouble now.

So, Heidi is known as the member

7

that other members prefer to speak first.

8

very quiet, but she speaks with a loud voice and an

9

accurate voice.

10

So, she’s

Special expertise in sculpture gives her a

11

precise eye for the detail, something the CCA

12

Committee always needs.

13

wife tells me all the time that I spend too much time

14

on the details, but I think if you get the details

15

right, you’re going to have a good product at the end

16

of the day.

17

So, your eye for detail, my

In festive and comprehensive setting

18

knowledge also, of all the products that she’s helped

19

produce over the years, that’s another good quality

20

for an artisan, designer and the things that we all

21

look for in the CCAC Committee, as well as the

22

numismatic community.

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Respected as a practicing artist has been

2

invaluable -- that to April and her gang is very

3

important, so we appreciate that as well.

4

one -- keen ability to understand and articulate

5

exactly how many elements of line art will change when

6

struck on a coin.

And here’s

Ron Harrigal here, who heads up our engraving

7
8

department in Philadelphia, has been a Mint employee

9

for thirty-sum years.

You make his job a lot easier

10

and all the men and women that participate in Ron’s

11

shop and the designers, that type of ability is

12

invaluable for us because we take your vision and put

13

it on the dyes and ultimately the coins that the U.S.

14

Mint manufacturers and sells around the world, so

15

well-done.

16

So, with her dedication and guidance for the

17

past 8 years, you have consistently moved the Mint and

18

U.S. Coinage towards more creative, artistic design

19

and for that Heidi, we all are very grateful, we

20

appreciate your last 8 years and I’d like you to come

21

up and receive this award on behalf of the United

22

States Mint and my personal thanks for a heck of a

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good job.

2

MS. WASTWEET:

3

MR. MORAN:

4

MS. WASTWEET:

9
10
11
12
13
14
15

Thank you.

Thanks, you made

me blush.

7
8

I think we need a standing

ovation.

5
6

Thank you.

MR. RYDER:

Do you want to say a couple of

words?
MS. WASTWEET:
MR. RYDER:

Sure.

Will you hand the microphone,

somebody? Don or Patti, I don’t know, do we have one?
MR. MORAN:

There’s nobody, there’s no press

on the line Heidi, you can saw anything you want.
MS. WASTWEET:

There’s somebody on the line,

there’s someone on the line.

16

MR. WEINMAN:

17

MR. URAM:

18

MS. WASTWEET:

You are on the transcript.

Do you want another picture?
Thank you so much.

That was

19

very interesting, thank you.

I have an embarrassing

20

confession to make.

21

Roger Burdette called me and asked me if I would be

22

interested in joining the CCAC, what is that?

Eight and a half years ago when

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2

didn’t know what it was.
And I don’t know, do I -- what does that

3

entail, what does that mean?

4

did because this has been a huge honor and a pleasure

5

to be part of this Committee.

6

a more intelligent and respectful Committee, no matter

7

what was going on and whenever opinions clashed, which

8

they often do, it was always with respect, both from

9

the Committee and the staff members.

10

And I’m so glad that he

I’ve never worked with

I’ve been in this industry for 32 years now,

11

and it’s a largely male dominated industry, but here

12

I’ve always been treated with the utmost respect.

13

felt valued, I felt listened to, and I’m so thankful

14

for this opportunity to come and join this group.

15

I

And the Committee comes here voluntarily,

16

gives up their own personal time because we believe in

17

the place in our culture for coin and in artistry.

18

And it’s that belief that brings us together

19

and makes us a quality group, so I’m thrilled to hand

20

my baton now to Robin Salmon to take my seat and

21

special thanks to April and Greg, you’re really the

22

backbone behind the scenes, and everyone else on the

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staff, I just can’t say enough good things.

2

And for Governor Uram, it’s nice to see that

3

doesn’t happen very often, to get that kind of praise.

4

I’m really proud of this organization, thank you.

5
6

MR. URAM:

Heidi, would you comment on your

medals please?

7

MS. WASTWEET:

Yeah, I chose one of the coin

8

talker -- code talker medals, I said coin talker.

9

Just one of my favorite designs that we looked at in

10

the 8 years, it’s got all the elements that we’ve

11

asked for over the years, the composition, the depth

12

and the reality and emotions that we look for.

13

an iconic piece.
MR. RYDER:

14

It’s

And the top medal if you haven’t

15

seen it, it’s the Alexander Hamilton2o2 Award which is

16

a top Treasury Award that we do have two superior

17

performers, so you are a superior performer.

18

MS. WASTWEET:

19

MR. RYDER:

20

greatly appreciated.

21

applause.

22

MR. VIOLA:

Superior performer.

But also, an artist that we
So, let’s give Heidi a round of

So, let me give you a little

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insight before we move on to the next award.

2

be done we have a very demanding boss in Secretary

3

Steven Mnuchin.

4

you were big supporters of the CCAC, or you wouldn’t

5

be here, but unfortunately, most of you probably would

6

like to serve continuously as members of the CCAC, but

7

we -- but as the Director of the Mint and the Treasury

8

of the United States, we have a responsibility to the

9

Secretary of the Treasury, who in past Secretaries,

So, to

And when I first came, I know all of

10

hasn’t taken as much of an active role as Mr. Mnuchin

11

has, Secretary Mnuchin.

12

And he has, believe it or not, I haven’t said

13

this to any of you, but he has embraced the United

14

States Mint.

15

big believer in getting new blood and new people

16

involved in this hobby.

17

He takes this job seriously.

He is a

He has been very supportive on all of the

18

things that we try to do here.

19

“no”, on many of the things that Jovita and I take to

20

him, and sometimes Rita, if I’m not here, Rita goes

21

and has meetings with him where she gets beat up, and

22

me getting beat up, but Jovita has been a very active

He has yet to say,

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supporter for the CCAC, a big believer in what you all

2

do.

3

So, between Jovita and the Secretary of the

4

Treasury, we have two supporters that really, as I

5

mentioned in our last meeting, are here to help us

6

grow for the future and grow upwardly and for that,

7

the CCAC and the Commissioner of Fine Arts, really

8

make it easy for us to do our jobs.

9

So, with that I’d like to get into Doctor,

10

come on over here, you know, everybody knows the good

11

Doctor.

12

you a little bit.

But again, the staff -- I’m going to roast

DR. VIOLA:

13
14

MR. RYDER:

Go right ahead.
The staff has given me five

15

different bullet points that I said I want five choice

16

comments, so as the Curator Emeritus of the

17

Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History, Herman

18

has done an outstanding job and how much higher can

19

you go to be a Curator Emeritus of the Smithsonian

20

Institute, that’s quite an accomplishment, good for

21

you.

22

MR. VIOLA:

Thank you.

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MR. RYDER:

He’s especially qualifies in

2

American History and most of our products that we

3

manufacturer here, have some aspect of American

4

History.

5

you’ve done, work and the things that you’ve done to

6

help us create the right designs when it comes to

7

American History, even though we’re only -- the Mint

8

is 227 years old as of a couple of weeks ago.

I think it’s a very important job that

9

MR. VIOLA:

10

MR. RYDER:

Yeah, you’re youngsters.
We’re youngsters comparatively

11

thinking with probably some of the other things that

12

you have worked with in your career.

13

essential in insuring that historical accuracy,

14

critical to coin design, doesn’t get any more

15

important than that and I think as Joe Menna over here

16

said, youngster compared to you and I, he’s a big

17

believer in that concept.

18

Herman has been

And maybe some of you don’t know, because he

19

got his start designing action figures like Superman

20

and a number of other things in his office, his new

21

office, his altar, or have posters of all the action

22

figures that he started as a young kid designing

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2

himself, so.
Historically, Joe’s onboard with what you

3

have been trying to do and so am I.

4

on the history of American Indian, Civil War, and the

5

exploration of the American West, and being a born and

6

raised in Montana and grew up in Idaho, my father

7

always read and passed along to me all the Louis

8

L’Amour books on the American West.

9

I’m a big fan.

You’re an expert

I’ve got property out there

10

that we go to every summer, so the American West is

11

pretty deep in my heart, so I appreciate the expertise

12

you bring along in that aspect.

13

So, he also contributes greatly to the team,

14

and has a critical depth of knowledge.

How much

15

better is it to have knowledge in this seal and have

16

an expert like you helping us day in and day out, so

17

Doctor, I want to thank you.

18

MR. VIOLA:

Well thank you.

19

MR. RYDER:

For your contribution.

You’ve

20

done a heck of a job, we’re going to miss you, but

21

you’re not going to be too far away.

22

MR. VIOLA:

That’s for sure.

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MR. RYDER:

Perfect, would you like to --

2

MR. VIOLA:

I took a code talker -- well I

3

just wanted to say that--

4

MR. WEINMAN:

Where’s the microphone?

5

MR. VASQUEZ:

It’s on the podium.

6

MR. VIOLA:

7

Oh, there it is it’s right there.

Is it it?

8

MALE SPEAKER:

9

MR. VIOLA:

Yeah:

This is really a very touching

10

moment for me.

11

Heidi, what an honor and privilege it has been to work

12

in this program.

First of all, I want to say like

13

As a historian studying coins and medals all

14

through history and suddenly to be part of the process

15

and the other part of the office that for me, at the

16

Smithsonian I’m on a lot of Committees, with some

17

super egos, and I really kind of dreaded what was

18

going to happen when I came here.

19

And this has become a family.

I honestly am

20

going to miss all of you.

And fortunately, since I

21

live locally, I’m not going to be too far, so I hope I

22

can just continue providing whatever assistance you

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need.

2

And the other thing is I wish the American

3

people could understand the thought that goes into the

4

design of their coins.

5

advertise this a little better, to really know that,

6

you know, these are people giving their time, their

7

expertise freely, joyfully, to make sure that we have

8

something that posterity can look back at and say wow,

9

what a great design, what a great program and we’re so

I mean somehow you should

10

lucky to have all of these, so thank you again very,

11

very much.

12

MR. VIOLA:

13

MS. WASTWEET:

14

MR. RYDER:

15
16

Thank you.
Thank you.

Thank you.

Jovita, would you

like to add any comments at all?
MS. CARRANZA:

Well, thank you for the

17

opportunity.

18

award and they’re very, very humble because I was

19

talking to Doctor Viola, we were talking about Chicago

20

(inaudible),and I just want to congratulate you on

21

this achievement to stand out amongst your peers and

22

to be recognized for your unwavering contributions and

The fact that they have received the

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to be available even in the future speaks to volumes

2

of your character and level of value that this

3

particular community and its work, congratulations, we

4

appreciate it very much.

5

I’ve learned a lot attending just a few

6

meetings, and I can sense the passion, the commitment,

7

the loyalty and the deliberation is very rich and

8

enlightening, so I applaud all your work on the CCA

9

Committee, thank you.

10

MR. RYDER:

Alright let’s get on to more.

11

MR. URAM: I really appreciate, and then Heidi

12

and Herman, on behalf of the entire Committee I’d like

13

to extend to you all the best of those intent and

14

wishes that you’d continue on, I’m sure that you will

15

continue to be great ambassadors to the numismatic

16

community and the Committees which you serve and

17

you’re always welcome and we look forward to even

18

seeing more of your friendship, thank you for the kind

19

remarks as well.

20

behalf of the entire Committee.

21

to turn it over to April.

22

And once again congratulations on

MS. STAFFORD:

At this time I’d like

Thank you so much.

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talking about the 2021 to 2025 American Eagle Platinum

2

Proof Coin Program.

3

Platinum Proof Series will reflect the five freedoms

4

enumerated in the First Amendment to the United States

5

Constitution -- that is, Congress shall make no law

6

respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting

7

the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of

8

speech or of the press, or the right of the people

9

peaceably to assemble and to petition the government

10

The 2021 to 2015 American Eagle

for redress of grievances.
We again asked artists to create designs that

11
12

not only well represent each individual year’s

13

freedom, but that also work together harmoniously

14

across the five-year series.

15

both the CCAC and the CFA in October 2018, and several

16

sets of designs were identified as having artistic

17

merit.

18

These were reviewed by

We worked with the respective designers to

19

update their designs based on feedback from both

20

Committees.

21

will also see several individual year candidate

22

designs as we wanted the artist, if they so desired,

In addition to these 5-year sets, you

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to be able to focus on representing an individual

2

freedom without the constraint of conceiving the

3

designing consideration with the four others in the

4

series.
These individual designs were also reviewed

5
6

by the CCAC and CFA in October of 2018.

Designs

7

identified as having artistic merit have been brought

8

back for further consideration, most of which have

9

been updated per Committee feedback.
Other designs have been brought back in their

10
11

original format as the design resonated well with

12

Committees as presented.
Required obverse inscriptions for the 2021 to

13
14

2025 American Eagle Platinum Proof Coins are Liberty,

15

In God we Trust, E pluribus unum and the year of

16

issuance.

17

The reverse design introduced for the 2018 to

18

2020 Platinum Proof Series featuring an American

19

Eagle, will be the same reverse used throughout the

20

2021 to 2025 Series.

21

We’ll begin by discussing Set 1, sorry I apologize.

22

You see that on the screen.

The CFA reviewed this material at last

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month’s -- their March meeting, and their preference

2

was for Set 2, which you will see in a moment.

3

starting with Candidate design for Set 1.

4

Okay,

Set 1 is tied together through its use of

5

flora and the traditional Liberty figure.

The first

6

design for 2021 features Liberty holding a candle

7

representing faith.

8

Religion” is included.

The inscription “Freedom of

The design for 2022 for this set depicts

9
10

Liberty with a flag to represent the Supreme Court’s

11

interpretation of speech to include symbolic

12

expressions such as the display of a flag.

13

inscription “Freedom of Speech” is included.

14

The

The design for this set for 2023 portrays

15

Liberty holding a document, symbolic of the press or

16

printed material.

17

Press” is included.

The inscription “Freedom of the

18

This set’s 2024 design features two

19

interpretations of Library joined together to

20

represent the right of the people to assemble

21

peaceably.

22

The depictions of Lady Liberty, from the

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Morgan Dollar and the 2017 American Liberty, examine

2

the 139 years of history between the two depictions

3

and attribute the success they see to the freedom’s

4

guaranteed in our Constitution.

5

“Freedom of Assembly,” is included.

The inscription

6

And the design for the set for 2025 depicts

7

Liberty holding an olive branch with five Petitioners

8

creating a pattern in the background.

9

branch reminds us that it is the right of the people

The olive

10

to petition to the government for redress of

11

grievances without fear of punishment or reprisal.

12

The inscription “Freedom to Petition” is included.

13

Moving on to Set 2, again this was the

14

Commission of Fine Arts Preference and recommendation.

15

Set 2 uses the lifecycle of the oak tree from seedling

16

to a mighty oak, as a metaphor for our country’s

17

growth as a nation that values freedom.

18

Liberty grows to a thing of strength and

19

beauty from a seed on Bill of Rights. Each of the

20

freedoms enumerated in the First Amendment contributes

21

to the growth and development of the nation.

22

The design for 2021 depicts a seedling and an

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accord surrounded by the inscription with “Freedom of

2

Religion, Liberty Grows.”

3

The design for 2022 features a juvenile oak

4

tree framed with the inscription, “With Freedom of

5

Speech Liberty Blossoms.”

6

The design for 2023 portrays the branch of

7

mature oak tree with acorns amid the inscription,

8

“With Freedom of the Press Liberty Bears Fruit.”

9

The design for 2024 showcases several types

10

of oak leaves assembled between the inscription with

11

“The Right to Assemble Liberty spreads.”

12

And the design for 2025 features the mature

13

spreading impressive oak tree between the inscription,

14

“The Right to Petition Liberty Indoors.

15

from it’s strength can live up to 200 years and is a

16

symbol of endurance.”

17

The Oak known

Candidate designs that formulate Set 3

18

feature a variety of allegorical figures.

Each

19

represents different concepts of Liberty as expressed

20

through the rights enumerated in the First Amendment.

21

2021 shows Liberty in different attitudes or

22

postures of worship, prayer and meditation, suggesting

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the diversity of religious practice in America.

2

inscription “Religion” is included.
2022 portrays Liberty engaged in three basic

3
4

modes of speech -- writing, formal speaking, or

5

lecturing and raising one’s voice in the public

6

square.

7

The

The inscription “Speech” is included.
The design for 2023 shows Liberty visibly

8

engaged in publishing and reading printed materials.

9

The inscription “The Press” is included.

10

2024 features Liberty in different postures

11

of conversation, interaction and association.

12

inscription “Assembly” is included.

13

The

The design for 2025 portrays Liberty marching

14

hand in hand.

15

on a large sheet of paper while another holds an olive

16

branch as a symbol of peace.

17

“Petition” is included.

18

One figure displays a petition written

The inscription

That concludes the sets that were developed.

19

We have seen really focused candidate designs.

20

Designs 1 and 13 takes inspiration from Moses, Jacob,

21

Ezekiel’s religious liberty statue in Philadelphia.

22

The design features a depiction of Lady Liberty and on

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her right the young man is the Genius of Faith pulled

2

into the burning torch of region.
Design 1 shows Freedom pointing upwards

3
4

declaring religious liberty.

Design 1 and 13.

Designs 2 and 2A depict Lady Liberty.

5

In

6

Design 2 a butterfly and the inscription “Freedom of

7

Religion,” are included.

8

features the inscription “Liberty is Freedom of

9

Religion.”

And in 2A the design

Design 11 depicts Lady Liberty in floral

10
11

symbols of various world religions.

12

“Freedom of Religion,” is included.

The inscription

Design 12 showcases a butterfly and a purpose

13
14

tone flower.

15

reincarnation, resurrection and femininity.

16

inscription “Freedom of Religion,” is included.

17

The butterfly represents the soul,
The

Designs 15 and 15A feature three sets of

18

hands coming from three different directions clasped

19

in prayer.

20

from which people may come, united by their freedom of

21

religion.

22

included.

These hands represent different directions

The inscription “Freedom of Religion,” is

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2
3

Design 15 and Design 15A has a shadow element
behind the hands.
And finally, Design for 2023 depicts a figure

4

utilizing an antique book press.

5

“Freedom of the Press,” is included.

6
7

MR. URAM:

Thank you April.

Any technical

questions before we begin our panel discussion?

8

MR. SCARINCI:

9

MR. URAM:

10

The inscription

I have a question.

Sure, Donald?

MR. SCARINCI:

What is our time constraint on

11

this program?

12

board with this, and ask for new designs, can we -- do

13

we have time for the first one?

14

with any of the sets, you know, we just want to see

15

the new designs, do we have time for the first -- for

16

the Freedom of Religion?

17

If we were to go back to the drawing

MS. STAFFORD:

Assuming we don’t go

So, we have -- so, the first

18

year for this program is 2021, and typically the Mint

19

works 18 to 24 months out as after designs are

20

identified, that’s where we like to plan to be.

21

would just also echo that we have brought this package

22

to the Committee before seeking input to help shape

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how we would possibly provide direction to artists to

2

conquer such huge topics, and important topics.
So, really I think the feedback from the

3
4

Committee is the most important thing that we seek.

5

Obviously, it’s a 5-year program, so beyond the first

6

year there is much more flexibility.

7

MR. SCARINCI:

8

MR. URAM:

9
10

considerations.

Thank you.

Thank you, alright let’s begin our

Robert, would you like to start us

off this morning?

11

MR. HOGE:

Thank you Mr. Chairman.

What

12

difficulty here is these are really all lovely

13

designs, it’s hard to select one set above the other

14

one and all the designs are so good, the additional

15

piece would be acceptable too, in my opinion.
I don’t feel really all that strongly in

16
17

favor of one set or against one.

18

decision.

19

idea of Set 2, because I like having a theme of growth

20

and development that’s expressed here.

21
22

It’s a difficult

I might tend to go along with the CFA’s

And the theme of a plant is kind of nice, and
I like the idea of the oak.

But Set 1 and Set 3 are

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so attractive too, it’s really hard to divide it, so

2

I’m really kind of at a loss.
I’d like to hear what the rest of the

3
4

Committee members may have to say.

5

MR. URAM:

6

MR. MORAN:

Thank you Robert.

Michael?

Stealth attack there, Tom.

We

7

asked at the last meeting that the Mint request the

8

artist that did the tree to expand the theme to all

9

five.

10

I think that that artist did an awesome job of

doing just exactly that.
I for one, applaud something different in

11
12

terms of a tree as opposed to women in gowns, and I’m

13

very happy with that.

14

them to do and they’ve got the vote and I’m not going

15

to put a 2 to the other, or a 1, and I’m just kind of

16

spear this one with a 3.
Quite honestly, I really think I will support

17
18

I think they did what I wanted

it.

19

MR. URAM:

20

MS. SALMON:

Thank you Michael, Robin?
They are all wonderful.

I was

21

drawn to Set 2, the tree and the symbolism, the design

22

combination, all of that, it’s just beautiful and the

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wording I particularly liked. If I have to choose, I’d

2

go with Set 2.

3

MR. URAM:

Thank you, Sam?

4

MR. GILL:

Well I agree with pretty much

5

everything that’s been said.

6

everything that’s been said for Set 2 is absolutely

7

beautiful, it’s stunning.

8

applied to other coins, not just this one because it’s

9

a -- this is a 5-set and obviously people are going to

10

I think the series could be

see these pretty things.

11
12

Actually, with

And lastly, I would just say all three are
quite beautiful.

13

MR. URAM:

Thank you, Doctor Dean?

14

MR. KOTLOWSKI:

Thank you Mr. Chairman.

I’m

15

very, very strongly partial to Set 2.

16

wonderful message, I think it’s original, I think it’s

17

artistic.

18

beautiful fashion, so I’m going to be voting for Set

19

2, thank you.

I think one leads to the other in a

20

MR. URAM:

21

MR. SCARINCI:

22

I think it is a

Thank you, Donald?
I’m going to make a motion to

reject all of the designs and I’m not going to put

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anybody on the spot, but you know, I’m not going to

2

put anybody on the spot as to who buys these coins

3

other than me.

4

But I buy these coins and I collect them, and

5

you know I have all of them in the series from the

6

beginning and I have to be really honest with you.

7

saw these designs and I just don’t think I’m going to

8

spend the $1,200 or $1,400 per coin to buy these

9

coins.

10

I mean they don’t speak to me.

I

They speak to

11

somebody else, maybe but they don’t speak to me.

12

These are you know, images from the past.

13

once again, I mean first of all Set 2, I mean it’s --

14

I mean they’re very pretty designs.

15

They’re

You know, and the artist did a very good job,

16

you know, doing you know, what you know, what we

17

suggested they do and using the tree and you know,

18

certainly the depiction of the Oak tree is a very

19

classic depiction of endurance and you know, and

20

strength and the depiction of you know, of you know,

21

of all of the you know, of all of it is, you know, is

22

very well done, artistically.

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It just doesn’t you know, if I’m making a

2

purchase decision and I’m going to spend you know,

3

$1,200 on a coin, that’s just not a coin I’m going to

4

spend $1,200 on, to be very honest.
And, you know, and you know and in the series

5
6

of five coins, it doesn’t make me feel anything.

7

doesn’t on its face speak to religion, speech,

8

assembly, it just doesn’t speak to the history of

9

these concepts and you know, I feel, and I teach, you

10

know, I teach Constitutional Law to lawyers using re-

11

enactors.

12

It

You know, and it’s kind of exciting fun, and

13

you know, these concepts have a lot of depth and

14

meaning, and you know, so there’s a lot going on with

15

these concepts.

16

So, using the plants just doesn’t, just

17

doesn’t capture -- while it’s artistically and

18

technically well-done and the artist should be

19

commended for doing it, it just doesn’t and it

20

certainly doesn’t move me to write a check, right?

21
22

So, as to Set 1, you know here we are, you
know, there’s Liberty, I mean, as to Set 1 I mean, you

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know, Number 2 just doesn’t work, it’s just way too

2

controversial, the Freedom of Speech thing with the

3

flag in the background, that was a controversial case,

4

to lose a controversial case, you know, I just don’t

5

think you could just go there.

6

You know, the two images of Liberty, this

7

idea of old and new, they’re turning it into a

8

political correctness thing, and that’s just not what

9

anyone was trying to do.

10

So, you know, this concept of religion, you

11

know, women classically dressed holding the candle, I

12

just don’t know what that’s supposed to even, you

13

know, mean.

14

they’re technically well-composed, and the artist

15

certainly did a good job, and you know I think the

16

artist -- I think there’s, you know, there are people

17

who, you know, I respect the fact that there are

18

people who like that and the artist, you know, did a

19

good job rendering classical figures and classical

20

designs of women who are classically dressed.

21
22

I mean, so while they’re pretty and

I just think it’s time that we go beyond that
and that it’s time that we take the series beyond

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that.

Not a single one of these coins is going to

2

really stand out and you know, and say I’m a great

3

coin, you know.
And I’m an amazing coin, you know, highlight

4
5

me in a presentation, highlight me in your case, put

6

me on your desk and make me sit there for a little

7

while, bring me to a seminar and show me around, you

8

know.

9

are going to speak, you know, to do that emotively.

10

There’s not a single one of these coins that

And while they’re all good, technically, and

11

the artist certainly did a good job, you know, am I

12

going to spend $1,100, $1,200 to buy one?

13

not.

14

if there was set that comes closer, you know, I mean

15

here we’re coming closer, I think the artist is

16

getting there.

I’m just

So, and as to the Third Set, I think the artist

17

I think we’re getting there where we’re now

18

beginning to depict women in more modern -- in a more

19

modern way, so we’re depicting women in a more modern

20

way, but you know, we’ve got to scroll, you know, we

21

can’t -- instead of a computer screen, instead of a

22

computer screen or an iPhone, you know, we’ve got a

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quill pen and we’ve got a scroll and we’ve got you

2

know, things that are not something that can be

3

identified with.

4

So, I think while we’re getting there with

5

Set 3, and we’ve got almost, you know, we’ve got

6

almost modern-looking women, you know, we’re almost

7

there, but we’re not there.
So, I think 3 has some potential and I’m not

8
9

-- and I think we can get away with three figures on

10

the sides of the pallet that we’re working with for

11

the platinum coin.

12

scroll, the -- maybe just a little more modernizing of

13

the women and what they’re wearing and a little more

14

modernizing of what they’re doing could make 3 work.

3 has potential but again the

So, you know, again it’s not a contemporary,

15
16

it’s not a real modernist design, it’s a more you

17

know, it’s more realistic than modernist, but you

18

could get it to work.
And then we go with the others in the package

19
20

and you know, to the singles in the package.

And you

21

know we’re back to you know, we’re far away from any

22

21st

Century depictions of imagery relating to freedom

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of religion.

2

And it’s such a rich topic, I mean, you know,

3

I mean the Supreme Court’s given us so much here that

4

we can pick from.

5

to the Greeks and the Romans for this, you know we can

6

reach right into our contemporary society for this, so

7

we can retread it to our era of this, but we’re not,

8

you know, and so anyway, I mean I think the butterfly

9

is pretty.

10

And we don’t really have to go back

Hands are difficult to do, the clasping hands

11

is difficult to do, so I’m trying to be positive.

12

Right, but you get my point, I mean I think we could

13

do so much more with this Platinum Series and speak to

14

the 21st Century and make it worth -- and make the

15

coins worth spending $1,200 for, and maybe try to win

16

an award with them.

17

I mean, and we’re not being told what to do

18

by Congress, this is one of those few things -- this

19

is one of those few opportunities that Congress isn’t

20

telling us exactly what to do so that we have the

21

freedom to do what we want to do, and we have the

22

freedom to come up with abstract images, like why not?

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What would happen if we did that, you know?

2

I mean what would happen if we came up with a

3

coin, you know, with an abstract image here, something

4

like they do in Latvia or Bella Ruse, or Poland, my

5

God, you know, the world would collapse, you know?

6

mean I would love to see these types of coins, these

7

types of series, you know.

8

do those things, you know, to look at what they’re

9

doing in Latvia, you know, and look at the creative

10

I

This is the opportunity to

things they’re doing.

11

And for us to do it.

This is the series to

12

do it, and people, you know, people would shell out,

13

you know, people like me would certainly shell out the

14

money, you know, to get you know, creative things

15

instead of things that if I’m going to spend $1,100,

16

you know, I might as well buy something, you know,

17

from the 19th Century, you know, because that’s what

18

that money is competing with.

19

For $1,900, I’ll by something on a slab from

20

the 19th Century, you know, rather than something from

21

these sets.

22

these.

So, anyway, I can’t vote for any of

I’m going to just, you know, you can vote it

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down if you want but I’m certainly not going to buy

2

any of these.

3

MR. URAM:

4

MR. MENNA:

5

Thank you Don, Jeanne?
Mr. Chairman, l could I speak for

a second?

6

MR. URAM:

7

MR. MENNA:

Certainly.
Okay, I would not presume to

8

educate the Committee or contradict any of this as

9

being numbers or pretend that I know more, but in my

10

experience being a classically-trained artist, you

11

know, I just wanted to now talk a little bit about

12

this and Mary talked about this this morning.

13

The classical tradition, as everyone knows,

14

began in the 5th Century Athens, and it’s a grammar

15

form of the proportion and composition that’s very

16

specific and existed in Greek, in Greece, in Rome

17

regarding the Italian Renaissance in neo-classical

18

France dealing with Pre-Raphaelites, and even aspects

19

of modernism in the 20th Century.

20

So, there’s very specific conventions.

21

don’t see those conventions manifested here.

22

like Donald correctly said, women in togas, women

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using certain props that allude that to classicism

2

except for the image of the statute which is very

3

specifically a lift from an item that is directly

4

classical and I know the statute because I walk by it

5

every day at lunch.

6

You know, I think these are necessarily

7

modern imagines of the women because at the time in

8

which they were created, the people who created them.

9

The fact that they’re using certain props from the

10

past, I don’t think should disqualify them.
Now, yes in ancient, in Renaissance, Italy,

11
12

classical art was garbed in what was then contemporary

13

clothing.

14

they garbed their characters and their figures, their

15

subjects in contemporary clothing, but I just don’t

16

think that, I specifically Set Number 3, is very great

17

contemporary in its execution of form, the stances,

18

the poses, the gestural language of the figures, the

19

diversity of the figures.

20

Pre-Raphaelite artists did the same thing,

To me, that couldn’t happen any other time

21

but 2019 or you show it’s supposed to be 2021,

22

whatever.

But, you know, the same thing for many of

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the other points, so I would -- don’t mean to argue

2

with Donald, I think he’s brilliant, but I just felt

3

that I should say that, and thank you for your time.

4

MR. URAM:

5

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

Thank you Joe, Jeanne?
Thank you Mr. Chairman.

6

I agree with everything that was stated however, I do

7

think we have sent the packets back and I think it

8

came back to us refreshed with an interesting idea,

9

and I nearly believe that… I believe that our mint

10

artists, answered everything we asked towards a person

11

(inaudible).

12

(Microphone is dying).

Alright, I’m looking at Set Number 2 when we

13

got this back, we have -- I need another mic.

14

maybe dying also, but it’s going on and off.

15

it’s just that I really like, I think it’s very

16

innovative, its ingenious, and it is answering all of

17

what we have asked our mint artists to do in the past,

18

to give us simplicity, to give us innovation, so I

19

applaud this very much.

20

This
Anyway,

I’m a little on Set Number 3, I think Donald

21

would be more happy with this, however, I think this

22

is sort of ordinary, it does give us some contemporary

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imagery, like Joe had commented on, but I think for

2

me, Set Number 2, is what I would like to see in this

3

series.
Now, unfortunately, I do not purchase the

4
5

platinum, but I do think in our coinage this makes a

6

neat statement, thank you Mr. Chairman.

7

MR. URAM:

8

MS. LANNIN:

9

Thank you Jeanne, Mary?
Like most of the people in the

group today, I prefer Set Number 2.

And I prefer it

10

for the beautiful execution of the lifecycle of an oak

11

tree, which actually does last more than 200 years and

12

so on the one that was at the winery was there, it was

13

a sapling before Columbus, that was for a really long

14

time.

15

And, but the thing that’s the most important

16

part of this one to me is the word “With”.

17

what pulls everything together.

18

religion, Liberty grows.

19

And that’s

With freedom of

So, by the use of the word “with” that ties

20

in the entire lifecycle of the oak, that ties

21

everything together.

22

it’s absolutely beautifully done.

I think it’s clean.

I think

My vote will go for

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Set Number 2, but I do want to say shout out to the

2

artist for in Set Number 1 for 2024, combining the

3

mint’s, older Liberty with the newer Liberty, I

4

thought that that was a very nice pairing and I wanted

5

to bring that up.

6

And I also do like the modern stances of the

7

Liberty’s in Set Number 3, but my vote will go to Set

8

Number 2, thank you.
MR. URAM:

9

Thank you Mary.

As the series

10

goes, first of all, a lot of this is what we’ve asked

11

for, this comes back around for us in the reply of

12

this and we’ve asked our artist to be creative and

13

this is a very nice, I think, Robert started it out,

14

exactly, it’s a wonderful portfolio of concepts and

15

designs that can be translated into making even other

16

issues as time goes on.

17

In particular, the butterfly, I think, is a

18

nice touch to promote a point of some sort, and I

19

think that there could be some other, others that are

20

here, but I think overall the artist should be very

21

positive in their -- that this is just a nice

22

portfolio.

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I, too, lean towards, are going to go with

2

Set Number 2.

3

wheel of life.

4

beginning, the acorn, and you grow, and you mature

5

through different stages of your life and its full

6

circle.

7

It reminds of me of kind of like the
You start out with religion, the

The only thing I would have done is on the

8

final oak tree is maybe have some leaves at the

9

bottom, simply because not everyone stays on the tree,

10

just like life.

11

growth as human beings, as individuals and I think

12

it’s something that you can look to and imagine the

13

series in your own way in your own life.

14

So, I think this represents our

So, I’m going to vote for Set Number 2.

Is

15

there any other further questions or Greg, would you

16

like to pass out the ballots?

17

for 10 minutes.

18

(Break 11:04 a.m.)

19

(Resume 11:16 a.m.)

20

MR. URAM:

We’ll also be on recess

Okay, I’ll ask that we reconvene

21

and at this time I’ll turn it back to Greg for the

22

results in our considerations.

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MR. WEINMAN:

Thank you, good morning.

With

2

9 members present this morning, there’s a total of 27

3

potential designs, which means 13 or 9 members that

4

vote?

5

MR. URAM:

6

MR. WEINMAN:

Yes.

We’re missing 2.

We’re missing 2, so 9 members,

7

that would mean.

8

okay.

9

Set 1 design is 2021 received 6 votes, 2022 received 6

So, 14, yeah 14 would be less 1

So, going through the design, the scoring is

10

votes, 2023 received 7 votes, 2024 received -- I’m

11

sorry 7 votes, and moving on to 2024, I’m sorry

12

received 10 votes, 2025 received 6 votes.
Moving on to Set 2.

13

Each design in Set 2 for

14

each of the years every one received 24 votes, which

15

will be the high vote here for the group.

16

Moving on to Set 3, of Set 3, 2021 received 4

17

votes, 2022 received 6 votes, 2023 design received 4,

18

the 2024 design received 4, the 2025 design received

19

6.

20

Moving on to the stand along designs, Design

21

Number 1 received 7, Design 02 receives 7, Design 02-A

22

received 3, Design 11 received 6, Design 12 received

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8, Design 13 received 6, Design 14 received 0, Design

2

15 received, that’s why Design 14 received 0 is

3

because there is no design 14.

4

Design 15 received 5, Design 15-A received 4,

5

and Design 18-23-01 received 1.

6

the Committee’s recommendation, save a Motion

7

otherwise, would be to recommend the Set 02.
MR. URAM:

8
9

With that in mind,

Thank you Greg.

Any further

discussion?
MR. SCARINCI:

10

Mr. Chairman, I’m not going to

11

make a motion.

12

instead just not going to buy the thing and I’ll save

13

the money for the next 5 years, you know, hopefully

14

some of you will buy this because I don’t know who

15

else will.

16
17

I am not going to make a motion.

MR. URAM:

Thank you Don.

I am

Any other

discussion, and may I entertain a motion?

18

MR. HOGE:

I so move.

19

MR. URAM:

Robert makes a motion to accept

20

and recommend and Mary seconds?

21

signify by saying “Aye”.

22

CHORUS: “Aye”.

All those in favor

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MR. URAM:

Opposed?

Any other motions?

2

Thank you.

Well I’ll tell you I think we covered a

3

lot of ground over the last couple days and I want to

4

thank everyone for coming out, especially the Mint

5

staff and those who can in from Philadelphia as well.
th

6

The next meeting is scheduled for June 18 ,

7

so you will be hearing from Betty and the team

8

regarding that.

9

blessed Easter and a great Spring, and look forward to

10

seeing you in the Summer, right?
And with that I will entertain a motion to

11
12

I hope you that you all have a

adjourn --

Robert?

13

MR. HOGE:

14

MS. STEVENS-SOLLMAN:

15

MR. URAM:

16

CHORUS:

18

MR. URAM:

20

I second.

All those in favor signify by

saying, “Aye”.

17

19

I so move.

Aye.
Opposed?

Meeting adjourned.

(Whereupon, at 11:22 a.m. the Meeting was
concluded.)

21
22

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2

CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC
I, NATE RIVENESS, the officer before whom the

3

foregoing proceedings were taken, do hereby certify

4

that any witness(es) in the foregoing proceedings,

5

prior to testifying, were duly sworn; that the

6

proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter reduced

7

to typewriting by a qualified transcriptionist; that

8

said digital audio recording of said proceedings are a

9

true and accurate record to the best of my knowledge,

10

skills, and ability; that I am neither counsel for,

11

related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the

12

action in which this was taken; and, further, that I

13

am not a relative or employee of any counsel or

14

attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor

15

financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of

16

this action.

17

<%14843,Signature%>

18

NATE RIVENESS

19

Notary Public in and for the

20

District of Columbia

21
22

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2

CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER
I, HELEN VENTURINI, do hereby certify that

3

this transcript was prepared from the digital audio

4

recording of the foregoing proceeding, that said

5

transcript is a true and accurate record of the

6

proceedings to the best of my knowledge, skills, and

7

ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to,

8

nor employed by any of the parties to the action in

9

which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a

10

relative or employee of any counsel or attorney

11

employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or

12

otherwise interested in the outcome of this action.

13
14

<%17264,Signature%>

15

HELEN VENTURINI

16
17
18
19
20
21
22

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