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Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

r

\
1

•

4

ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT
OFFICE OF ORDNANCE DISTRICT CHIEF
1107
TO INSURE PROMPT ATTENTION

BROADWAY

NEW YORK. N. Y

IN REPLYING REFER TO
FILE No.
ATTENTION

OF PRODUCTION

PRODUCTION DIVISION
DIVISION

November 2,1918,

Miss Maly Van Kleek,
Chief, women in Industry Service,
Dept. 6r Labor,
Southern Building,
75th and H Streets,
Washington, D.C.
My dear Miss Van Kleek:
The enclosed letter fvm the\HaUirshaw Electric Cable Company; is
6rders of attached telegram
referred to you for action fidiowing th-6which is self-explanatory.
I am also enclosing a very informal memorandum giving you a resume
of my telephone conversation with Mr. Quinn of the Habirshaw Electric
Company. I know that they are very anxious to have this exemption
go thru and although I am not able now to get hold of Yr. Quinn, I
am forwarding the material to you for action. I have also sent a
duplicate of this material to Miss Fell Swartz.


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Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

N. M. REEDER, SUPERVISOR
WOMEN'S BRANCH.

ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT
TO INSURE PROMPT ATTENTION

OFFICE OF ORDNANCE DISTRICT CHIEF

IN REPLYING REFER TO

1107 BROADWAY

FILE No.

NEW YORK, N. Y.

ATTENTION OF PRODUCTION DIVISION

PRODUCTION DIVISION

•

Pesder, ,9u:;ervisor Worint. Br,
!=ilbirshaw Flootrio Ctble Cc.

4.),m...;Lon
ThL
tfiournoon I recoivei t%J.1 ii!oclozai Ll.legr•An
relative to handling exemption .oao,2 for Aofnen. KNowing U ,Lit you
A.ve aiInt 2,0or original
are
tO halvt ttotiw, on tt;11, I h,
t!'1.3
•
d4ta,
toothar kith
to Vie..) Uary Tinkleeok anas to U43. Noll Swarts,
Yor Dept. of Labor
Induatry
a I

,:aorry ids tad rat uN4aret4nd at the cutilet thaL this Aaa
not t pure OldnanOe oonttaot. Otherwise, I could have, directeki
YOU yeaterafty to
VvAKleisok.
00'


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Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

U. K. E
WOvFlillr5 SI A

ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT
TO INSURE PROMPT ATTENTION
IN REPLYING REFER TO
FILE No.
ATTENTION OF PRODUCTION DIVISION

OFFICE OF ORDNANCE DISTRICT CHIEF
1107 BROADWAY
NEW YORK, N. Y.

PRODUCTION DIVISION

.txtd, 1916.

:ry Van Kleeck,
Chief.Women In Ihai4,-Ax
Dei-t. of LAor,
Fouthern Bu - ldin7,
11:W.
H Zts.
W4Shington. P. C.
The enclosed letter from the Habirshaw Flectric C';%ble 'ompan),,
itflrred
::cu for Ictin follOvdn; IA - orders of :,:tt:r!.
telegram whioh lz delf-zxrianatory.
I am also anclonin2: a if,
n:y informal. rl,mor',n,ivq; giving you
of my telephone conv,
,r3ation 7.1th Ur. t4linn of thf! Habirshaw
ectrio
1 krotti thut thay are v
:42xious to have th Is
exsticr: thru trld althcmh I A.
'
t
now to :.r.et 13'.J of Mr.
Quinn, I ar forwardInf!; th?. !flitrJa,1
yc;%
action. I have
also sant a tiLilinPae of thL3. iTat."-Till to MitiJ Nell FwArtz.


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Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

BRAACII.

cl Od a 55
a.

Od

ashington DC 1252 pm Nov 2 '18

Ordnance District Chief,
Aew York District Ordnance Office.
Attention ,ise

Reeder Nomens Ijranch.

Informed 1“) Ordnance contract at havirshaw rlectric cable Comnany
Yonkers newYork neriod advise you
case Van Kleeck Labor
fr permit period


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Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

not handle

period Advise you report

Department if firm wishes to make request

Tad
Alliams 7733 Army Ordnance.

cl Od a 55
cd

auhincton DC 1252 pm Aov 2 '18

Ordnance 1.4.strict Chief.
hew York Jistrict Ordnance Office.

Attention -Lao - • Aueder

coLaeno Lranch.

Informed io Ordnance contract at Hallirehaw ?:lectric (able Com,any
Yonkers Nelefork rwriod advivw you
case Van Klock Labor
f r riermit period


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Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

not handle

period .V.iviao you mos.

lispartraent if firm wishes to lwake request

TAO

•

Williams 7733 Army Ordnance.

NoVember 2, 1918.
MEMO RANDUTI.
Telerhore conversation with Ti:r. Quinn, Central Office, Habirshaw
Electric Cable Co.

Said Ir. Ward of the Otis Elevator Co. had referred
him to the Industrial Service Section, to get action on exemption
for women.
Caid Mr. Struthers Was the man to see at the Yonkers
factory.
CONTRACT.
Nature - flat rate.
Order #180239)
Signal Corps#)

5000 Miles, begun Octo. 14, no date
of expiration.

Order
180230)
Signal Corps #) 5000 liles, begun Oct. 14, no date
of expiration.
Order #180375)-30,000 Miles
Signal Corps #)
To date, November 2nd, 50 miles total amount produced.
A schedule production, according to Ir. Marsh, who gave
me date on conLracts, as follows:-


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Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

Nov.

1st Week,
2nd
3rd
"
4th
"

15I&.
20C
300
:500

5000 miles
Month of December,
10000
" January,
Expect to finish the contract about the first
cf March.
They are taking care of 1C,000 miles at a BridgeAs nearly as I can make out, this
port Plant.
firm is a subsidiary of the American Steel and
If I am wrong in my conclusion,
Machinery Co.
it may be that the American Sttel & Machinery
Co. is the Company with the direct contracts.
The telephone number of the Central Office, where
Mr. quinn is located, is Vanderbilt 2860.
I have
made all the arran7ements of a visit on .:onday
with him.

./7/7


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Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

HABIRSHAW ELECTRIC CABLE CO., Inc.
YONKERS, NEW YORK

:mriember 1, 191.

Industrial Service Section
Ordinance Depr3rtment
1107 Broadway
Gentlemen:
, Our plant is at present Producinp; practically
100;20 government work. Our lart7est and most importand order is Oufpost Wire for the American Army in
France and we have promised to produce this wire at
the rate of 2000 miles per week.
In order that we fulfill this promise it is
absolutely necessary that we run our factory to its
ubmost capacity 24 hours per day. There are a number
of operations in the production of this wire that are
essentially women's work, particulary the winding
and stranding of the fine wire, and application of the
cotton braid.
Our production has increased raridly in the last
few weeks and we have now reL,ched a point where it is
necessary that the machint_s operated by women run 24
hours per day and we have been unable to obtain nermission from the State Department of Labor to employ*
them between the hours of 10 P.M. and 6 Ais!!.
We are now working the women in two shifts of
7i hours each, the hours being
6A.M. to 2P.M.
let snift
Lunch period 10A.M. to 10:30 P.M.
2 Pa. to 10 P.M.
2nd shift
Lunch period 5:30 P/M. to 6P.M.
It would be a physical impossibility to turn out
the wire required of us by the Signt-,1 Corps utless we
are able to work a third shift of women between the
hours of 10P.M. and 6A.7.
Can you give us or assist us in obtaining the
necessary permission towork our female employees
durin7 these ::.(Jurs of the night? We are ready and
willing to cOo-erate in cvery way to make any speulai

•


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Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

HABIRSHAW ELECTRIC CABLE CO., Inc.
YONKERS, NEW YORK

provisions for the safety and health of the wcmen
durinq, thee hours. It is only while engae7ed in this
war work that we desire this extension.
We, have placed some of the new machines enraged
in this work in two bui1din7s in the vicinity and of
course desire the Fame workinl hours for these also.
We trust that you will see the necessity of cur
obtaining this permission as quickly as possible so
that there mLAy be no delgy in the production of this
wire which] we understand is most urgently needed hy
the Sicr,nal Corp. We are
Very truly your,
HABIRSH:ji ELECTRIC CABLE CC., IYC.
BY:

•••

ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT
OFFICE OF ORDNANCE DISTRICT CHIEF
1107
TO INSURE PROMPT ATTENTION

BROADWAY

NEW YORK. N. Y

IN REPLYING REFER TO
FILE No.

PRODUCTION DIVISION

ATTENTION OF PRODUCTION DIVISION

COPY
HABIRSHAW ELECTRIC CABLE CO., Inc.,
Yonkers, New York.
November ls 1918.

Industrial Service Section,
Ordnance Department,
1107 Broadway.
Gentlemen:
Our plant is at present producing practically
no% government work. Our largest and most important order is Outpost Wire for the American Army
in France and we have promised to produce this wire
at the rate of 2030 miles per week.
In order that we fulfill this promise it is
absolutely necessary that we run our factory to its
utmost capacity 24 hours per day. There are a number
of operations in the production of this wire that are
essentially women's work, particularly the winding
and stranding of the fine wire, and appliation of the
cotton braid.
Our production has increased rapidly in the last
few weeks and we have now reached a point where it is
necessary that the machines operated by women run 24
hours per day and we have been unable to obtain permission from the State Department of Labor to employ
them between the hours of 10 P. M. and 6 A. M.
We are now workingthe women in two shifts of
7i hours each, the hours being
6 A.M. to 2 P.M.
let shift
A. M. to 10 P.M.
10
Lunch period
2
P.M. to 10.P.M.
2nd shift
Lunch period 5:30 P.M. to 6 P.M.
It would be a physical impossibility to turn out
the wire required of us by the Signal Corps unless we
are able to work a third shift of women between the
hours of 10 P. M. and 6 A. M.


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Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

Can you give us or assist us in obtaining the

necessary permission to work our female employees
during these hours of the night? We are ready and
al
willing to cooperate in every way to make any speci
women
the
of
h
provisions for the safety and healt
during these hours. It is only while engaged in this
war work that we desire this extension.
We have placed some of the new machines engaged
in this work in two buildings in the vicinity and of
course deisre the same working hours for these also.
We trust that you will see the necessity of our
obtaining this permission as quickly as possible so
that there may be no delay in the production of this
wire which we understand ia most urgently needed by
the Signal Corp, We are,
Very truly yours,
HABIRSHAW ELECTRIC CABLE CD., INC.
By:
BA:%


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Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

(SGD) B. Aspinwall.

ORDNANCE

DEPARTMENT

OFFICE OF ORDNANCE DISTRICT CHIEF

TO INSURE PROMPT ATTENTION
IN REPLYING REFER TO

1107 BROADWAY

FILE NO.

NEW YORK. N. Y.

ATTENTION OF PRODUCTION DIVISION

PRODUCTION DIVISION
PP •
HAVIIHAW FLTCTPIC CABLr CO., Inc.,
Yonkers, N1'01 York.

Novemb(tr 1, 1918.

Indust/ial Service Section,
Ordnance Department,
1107 Broadway.
Gentlemen:
Dur plant is at pr;lucnt producim . pru,ctic4lly
:rnment work, 3ur larest and vio t import1D),
ant order ia Dutpo4A 7Ii co; the Amei.ican Army
to proluce this wire
In France .41,1 we haw:::
pr wok.
at the rate of 2)3D Ul1l.
In order that we fulfill this promiso it is
fun our factory to its
. absolutely necessary thAt
day. There ar-! a numbYr
utrozwt capacity 24 hours p
Of ov!Ations in thu production of this wir th:Lt are
worh, particuLlrly thc winding
eauentiallj
fi!ioJ1i, n1 Apliation of the
the
o:
ng
strandi
and
cotton braid.


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Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

Our production h..ts increased ;,4.pidld in the 13st
it is
few weeks :And we hAve now reached n point wh
24
run
women
by
ricessary th:t the machines oprated
vrobtain
hours per day And .1!! have he -n unablc to
miwaion from the State Departgiont of Labor to emplo,
thlm between the hours of 10 P. U. and 6 A. M.
Ve are nog workin ,the women in two shifts of
7i hours each, the hours being
o A. . to 2 P.M.
1st shift
•
to 10
Lunch p rioi 1D A.
,
. . to 1D.P.g.
2nd shift
Lunch period b:6) P./. to 6 P.,..
It
thti wire
abl,;
hours of

ou14 be a physical impossibility to turn out
re luircd of us by the Sinul Corpc unluea we
to *or i( a thin .% shift of women between the
and 6 A.
13 P.

Can you 4ive

LAU

OI

assist us in obt4inin4 the

- 2

40

neeessary permission to work our female employeos
durin4 thews hours of the night? We Are roily Ani
willing to cooperate in elptry 'la' to make ;An' apecial
provisions for the safeti and hoalth of the women
during these hours. It is only while engaged in this
war work that we desire this extension.
We have platted some of the mew naehines engaged
in this work in two buildin7s in th,'. vicinity and of
course deisre the sass working hours for these also,
We trust th,lt you will see the neoessity of our
obtaining this permission au luickly as possible so
that there mdy be no delay in th8 production of this
wire which we understand is moot ur.,:ently neadod by
the Si,;nal Corp, We aro.
V ry truly yours,
HABIKITAW 14,4:CITIC CABL7,,7 CD.. INC.
Ay:
BA;%


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Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

(SGD)

Aspinwall.

ORDNANCE
TO INSURE PROMPT ATTENTION
IN REPLYING REFER TO

DEPARTMENT

OFFICE OF ORDNANCE DISTRICT CHIEF
1107 BROADWAY

FILE No.
ATTENTION OF

PRODUCTION DIVISION


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Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

NEW YORK, N. Y

PRODUCTION DIVISION

COPY
HABITiSHAW FLr-CTFIC CABLE CD., Inc..
Yonkers, IfeW York.
November 1, 1918.

Industlial Service Section,
JrdmInce Department,
1137 Broadway.
Gentlemen:
Our plant is at present producinc, practically
100% gov-Jrnment work. Jur largest and mo.t important order is Dutpo;it Wire for the American Army
in France and we have promised to pro4uce this wire
at the rate of 2)30 miles per week.
In order that we fulfill this promise it is
absolutely necessary that w-..! run our factory to its
utmotit capacity 24 hours par day. There arc a numb-r
of ov.itions in the production of this wire thut are
essentiallj wo en's work, particularly the minding
and stranding ot the fine wire, anl appliation of the
cotton braid.
Our production has increased xapidly in the lAut
few weeks and we-hAve now reached a point who e it is
4
necessary that the machines operated by women run
vrobtain
to
unable
:n
have be
hours per lay And
mission from the State Department of Labor to employ
them between the hours of 10 P. M. and 6 A. M,
We are now workilvthe women in two shifts of
7i hours each, the hou ,s being
o A.M. to 2 P.M.
13t shift
A. I. to 13 P.U.
10
Lunch p riod
2
P.M. to 13.P.M.
2nd shift
Lunch period b:60 P.M. to 6 P.Ki.
turn out
It would be a phisical impossibility to
we
unl,:ss
Corpo
Signal
the wire re4uired of us by the
the
n
betwee
arc able to work a third shift of women
hours of 13 P. U. and 6 A. U.
the
Can you give us or assist us in obtainin4

necessary permission to work our female employees
duritv these hours of the night? Te are ready and
willing to cooperate in ovttry Tray to make any special
provisions for the safety and health of the women
during; these hours. It is only while engaged in this
war work that we desire thi3 extension.
Ws have placed some of the new machines engaged
in this work in two buildin8 in thc vicinity and of
course deisre the 3..me working hours for these also.
We trust that you will see the necessity of our
obtaining this permission as luickly as possible so
that there may be no delay in the production of this
wire which we understand is most urgently needed by
the Si nal Corp, We are,
V ry truly yourJ,
HABI'r4SHAT LCTIC CABLY C)., INC.
By:
BA;')g


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Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

(SGD) B. Aspinwall.

•

Noirember 4, 19:1 8.
2,,odor,
Miss N.
New York DiLtrict Ordnanca Office,
1107 BroadwaiY,
NON York City.
My doss Miss Reeder:
I wish to acknowledge your letter of NovTabe-,7 1/(3 to Miss
Van Kleecks which came during her abgenoo from the city for a few
days. IL will be LroujA to her attention upon her return.
Very truly your,

IMP

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Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

Secratary to Miss Van Kleeck.


https://fraser.stlouisfed.org
Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

November 22, 1918.

Miss Nelle Swartz, Chief
Bureau of Women in Industry,
New Yank State Department of Labor,
230 Fifth Avenue, New York City.
My dear Miss Swartz:
This is to acknowledge receipt of your
retort on tbo Habirshaw Electric Cable Company, Yonkers,
New York. There Kill be no need from mow on to consider
requests for exemptions from night work laws, aa I am
sure you understand.
Sincerely yo-urs,

MVK/L

Mary Van Maack, Director
Woman in Industry service.

NJV 21 A.M.
STATE OF NEW YORK

BUREAU OF

DEPARTMENT OF LABOR

WOM EN -IN -INDUSTRY

OFFICE OF THE STATE INDUSTRIAL COMMISSION
NELLE SWARTZ

CAPITOL, ALBANY

S-TATE INDUSTRIAL COMMISSION

CHIEF OF BUREAU

JOHN MITCHELL, CHAIRMAN
NEW YORK OFFICE, 290 FIFTH AVENUE

EDWARD P. LYON
LOUIS WIARD
JAMES M. LYNCH
HENRY D. SAYER

WILLIAM S. COFFEY, SECRETARY

NEW YORK, November 19, 1918.

Miss Mary Van hieeck,
Department of Labor,
Women in industry Service,
Southern
Washington, L. C.

14,2A-44'
/cult°

Dear Miss Van ileeck,
Miss I?eecter referred to me the matter of the
Habirshaw Electric Cable Company, Yonkers, 'Jew

York, and I

am enclosing for sour information a copy of our investigation,
that you may know that our recommendation is that such request
for exemption be denied.
Yours very sincerely,

Chief.

NS.LLS
Enc. - report


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Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

HAB

aka 'Lisle

Bovember 7, 1918

IC CM3LF C0'TAMIL

Yonkers, New York

LEASA Ijik VISIT
Application made to Ordnanoe Department for exemption from
night work law prohibiting the employment of WOMIR between hoard of 10 p.m.
and 6 a.m. The question was referred by the Ordnanoe 11epartment to the -omen
in Industry Service, -. S. Labor Depaftment, because it vac learned that the
contract was primarily a A.gnal Corps one.
NM V Mal

r.,truthers, Factory .uperintendent
Ax. Harry 2tansfie1d, Secretary of International Assooiation of
Machinists

ALTIA1 n:EJ

LATE

LA,
.arch 18, 1918

Inspection made for the B'ILEA II OF


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Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

Aargaret T. Hodgen

alias i.,,venson

/MT LI Iti:k

iabirahaw -'lectric Cable Company

11/7/18.

SITAMAitY
The rogaeirt for permission to employ women on night shifts was made by
Wkis firm at least to to four weeks in advanee of the time when they woul*
be able to employ them. This "preparedness" was due to the fact that the
company has constructed two new buildings which may be ready in several weeks.
The only reason given for wishing to employ women at night was that they were
able to perform delicate operations of mending broken thread and -Are as
braiding maohinee more skillfully than men or boys. Men and boys, however,
()rut be scoured in Yonkers with only "ordinary difficulty", according to the
faci,oxy superintendent.

That request for exemption from night work law prohibiting employment
of women between hours of 10 p.m. and 6 a.m. be denied inasmuch as
1) woman do not necessarily excel men or bo;is in the type of work
demanded
2) both men ana boys can be secured in lonkers for the night shift
with only "oruinaly diffieulty".


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Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

S

RABDSHAW ;f,L2C.IC C4J,L4 CO-IANY
Yo114..ers, Hew lork

November 7, 1910.

REAA fa VI, IT
Application made to Ordnance Department by the Habir.Jhaw Plectrio Cable
Company for permlosion to employ women at night between hcrars of 10 p.m. and
6 a.m. The questiok was referred by the Ordnance Department to the Women in
Industry Division, U. S. Labor Department, beeanee it was learned that the
contract was primarily a signal Corps one.
ST,
).TUS OF CONTRACT
kroduot - wire ior carrying electric current. This firm receives the wire
and puts on outer coating of rubber :AILL braided thread, which
they deliver to the Signal Corpse

In ordor to meet contract the management has taken over two new factory
buildings in which machines are now being installed, and dressing rooms
prepared for women.
U uabeUXin,
In

atirshaw rlectric Cable Company - Women 120
600
Men
720

2) In Dock Street plant - number to be
employed in from 2 to 4 weeks -

women

60

3) In Armory plant no. to be employed 56
in from 2 to 4 weeks
If a night dhift be put on in all three plants, the total number
of women employed will be 236, and on the night dhift aloe, 103*
Employment Manager
7omen are employed by a man employment manager. The firm has recently
Jecared the services of a woman Ito is now taking up questions involving the
employment of vaunt.
be has choen forewomen from among the Jorkers„ in
accordance with the management's plane
Labor Turnover
Accurate figurea not available, though kept.
at 2004.

The turnover is estimated

Labor ".inDp11
From the Superintendent of this plant and from other sources it was learns
ed that Yonkers is well supplied with male and female labor; that only "ordine4
diffivalty" is encountered in getting men, while women cam be had for the asking at low wages.


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Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

0
11/7/18.

ila'birshw - lectric Gable CompnAY

The women employed at the Rabirshaw Uectrio Cable Company's plant live
in the J.mediate neighborhood. Those working on the morning shift are undor
21, while thous on the afternoon shift are over 21, in order to comply with
the law which prohibits employment of women under 21 after 9 o'clock. The
'omen on the morning shift are unmarried, h11e about 60,0 of those on the
afternoon shift are married.

uocrssEs cyl

no:.:711

ULICUC

Women are °perng braiding, paper insulating, rubber insulating, cotton
sindiab, Are windiag aad strandinc machines, All the operationr are etrole,
or
requiring the watching of several machines and occasionally splicing thread
at
expert
more
this
much
are
wire. T. e uperintendent said that the women
fine work than men and that boys are "all thumbs". To the inTestigaLors the
en.work seemed to require only the minims of skill or delicacy. The 1-:,uperint
men
and
boys
the
that
dent's judgment may have been inn:Mowed by the fact
demand a higher we for the work.
Training

or Vionien‘

Any one of these processes can be learned in

a few hours.

H(AMS
lioE,en are employed on two shifts:
1) 6 a.m. - 2 p.-. lunch 10:00 - 10:30
5:30 - 6:00
"
2) 2 p.m. -10 1,
7i htours a day
" "week
45
WAGES
la MSII
---"!Proceas
Braiding
Cotton winding
Far °women
Wire winding
Stranding
Pepsi Insdating
Rubber Insulating
Forewoman

Initial(hourly)

":aximm (hourly)

28e
261
30i

281
281
341

281
281
3451

301
401

sow
Sel

34e
301
34¢

Men are started at 34 as against wumen at 24. No man is reeeivin6
an hour, an the majority of them only 38V-401 an hoar.
more Mum

64

PHYI CAL °' ORKING C'AIDIT IiLIS
Supervisiork .1. by woman, newly employed
Uniforms- girls are remired to liar khaki bloomer uniforms which cost
the company !34175 and are sold to the girls for 113.00, which
is paid out of their wages at the rate of 50/ a week.
Work zoom Condition' - are good
Speeding ,0 none

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Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

11/7/18.

Hdbirshaw •lectrio Company'
Ali ICU.

continued)

Servioe Tcatures
_
1. .ianitary ;Aryls*
3 floor - toilet room oontains 5 toilets, 6 waAl basins in a clean
oondition
':inding Dept.
toilet room contains white vitreous trolvh with
10 faucets; 3 toilets, clean.
Lunch zalaet iuiii

srvice

3 floor - large sunny room for rest *oom with couch, table qnd
provision for heating food. Hats and ooats hung about
rest room.

, ICY I.
An effort wad mate to secure information concerning conditions in the
plant from the Machinists Union, and the Central Labor Body. Representatives
from these organisations knew of no special oonditioas in he plant.


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