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CISION MICROSTATI MICROFILM BOLL NO. INDEX TO BOOK 844 OF DIARY 0 Book Page -A- Alk (Foreign Funds Control) 844 242 Philippines Appropriations Moore nemo 5/3/45 on cuts in Army and Navy appro- 125 ff. printions Argentina Braden (U.S. Ambassador meets with Coe and 103 ff. Hoffaan 5/3/45 HAJr eaks Bruden whether Treasury men may go to DIARY Argentina to hunt for Hazi funds. Braden asks 103 ff. to see Schmidt Book 844 May 3-5, 1945 -B0 Belgius Payment to Belgium for franc advances to pay U.S. froops EUR writes Gutt that an extra payment of $8,500,000 will be made and the whole matter re-examined June 15 - 5/5/45 a) Gutt's letter 5/1/45 urging more payments 303 ff. Bretton foods See Post-Var Planning: Bretton Woods Budget Discussed by D.W. Bell and HNJr 5/4/45 207 -CCartels Post-War Planning: Germany 255 ff. China Textiles and trucks for China a) Crowley (FEA) nemo 5/3/45: suggests splitting requirement between civilian and military supply O .. 113-120 Book Page c (continued) Book Page 0 C China (continued) b) Willmuer nero with statistics and tables 844 114 ff. 5/3/45 Correspondence 279 II. Currie, Laughlin Memo on conferences with British officials, April 1945. re post-wer policy 5/4/45 213 IT. Eberstadt, Ferdinand 100 fr.,197. Mrs. Forbush's mail report, week endine May 4. 1945 Fost-Ter Planning: Germany 204 Jackson, Justice Robert H. Post-Ser Planning: Reparations 864 77 f. Keynes, Lord John M. 227 r. Roosevelt: Condolences Lend-Lease United Kingdom FRB of NY statement showing dollar disbursements, week ending 4/25/45 - 5/3/45 134 ff. - M. Financing, Government C Fussell senda 10171 material for possible use in speech or broedcast - referred to Gamble - 5/4/45 232 " orgenthau, Henry Jr. hite's comments on "Gerneny" articles 5/3/45 HMJr BBK8 Connelly for Trunso's approval -P. -G. Pauley, Edwin W. Fost-lar Planning: Reparations Germany Treasury to have three people ready to look at gold cache by May 7 or 8 D.W. Bell to HIT 5/4/45 Clippinga on gold anche - 5/4/45 206 226 303 If. Gutt, Camille 3-78, 153-185, 211, 245 Philippines Coe and Schmidt memo to HIJT: 6 people to start for Philippines under leadership of Alk of Foreign Funds Control - approved by HAJT - 5/4/45 242 Post-War Planning Belgium Bretton Woods - Hannegan Robert E. IDWJ letter congratulating on nomination na Postmaster General 5/3/45 124 98, 200 123 Feltus sends 10ST r Wall Street Journal article hinting possible Treasury compromIse; Feltus urges ensouncement of position. Sends article on women's clubs uring acceptance of Bretton Woods ... 5/3/45 109-112 PRECISION MICROFILM TRADE MARK BOLL Book Page Book Page P (continued) (continued) D C Post-War Planning (continued) Bretton Woods (continued) Feltus meno 5/3/45 re World-Telegram story that Daily Worker used Treasury to raine funds Tribune clipping on PAC booklet on Bretton Woods, sent by Feltus 5/4/45 William Green thanked for testimony before House Consittee 5/4/45 Pamphlet with charts presented to House Consittee sent 5/5/45 by E.M. Bernstein Post-Mar Planning (continued) Reparations 844 (c) Labor Reparations document discussed 121 f. 1) Court trial for those condemned to labor? 2) Should present wereWolf members or sabo- 223 f. 243 49-63 4) Labor to be restricted to reconstruction? 69 r. 5) b) Justice Jackson to see draft of labor document Working committee to meet with JCS representstives and try to get agreement Reparations document - text HMJr aska Stettinium whether Treasury may be represented on Comuunicstions Committee 5/4/45 Asks for Treasury representation on Air Coordinating Committee 5/4/45 244 247 ff. 3) k) n) Recommendation of JCS on 1067 Revised Eberstadt for top finance men a) Nathan Robertson tells HAJT - no good b) General Greenbaum recommends highly C o) D.V. Bell tells HMZ Eberstadt won't accept d) Hilldring reads Clay cable saying Bernstein is adequate for the present State Dept. sends HIST: nemo on Germen participation in international cartels - 4/25/45 o) Acknowledged by HIJT 5/4/45 93 ff. 197 f. 255-270 254 Reparations Meeting of IPCOG 5/3/45 on reparations document b) Veto power of one nation in Control Council discussed o) Degree of control of Zone Connander over what leaves his zone 1) Recommendation of Joint Chiefs of Staff for change in 1067 Revised 2) Text of 1067 Revised amended by DuBois d) Imports into Germany to be paid for by exports, before exports are used as reparations e) Merchant ships to be placed in Allied Shipping Pool, and fairly divided after V-J Day r) Arms and ammunition to be destroyed, not used as reparations 78 153-185 tion only Insertion of phrase b) Artended to allow labor on fuel and food to re- 158 f. distress oil, etc. Document approved by IPCOG eeting considers Eisenhower's request for interim adviser on reparations Text of document finel State Department protests appointment of independent Reparations Commissioner; Truman refers them to Pauley who tell then "to mo to hell. ff. 7 If. 11-17, 25 CC. 3) -34 36 16-22 37 f. 39-42 93 ff. Reparations document o) Removal of all types of industries producing 1 80 83-92 96 T. lieve 204 209 r. Comment of JCS on IPCOO I a) Labor outside of Germany to be used for reconstruc- 100 by Reparations Commission 72-76 1) Labor document draft Meeting of IPCCG 5/4/45 completing consideration of 31-34 a) Removal of reparations items to be determined 65-68 1) Germany Revised 1067 discussed at Reportions meeting 5/3/45 Should Germany pay for maintenance of laborers? Communications 43-77 45 ff. teurs be included? 3) Survey of conditions of laborers by Reparations Commission 301 844 Currie finds Lord Keynes worried about possibility of Britain and U.S. having to ship goods into Germany while Russia takes out reparations April 1945 HOT assures Truman that close limison will be maintained between Pauley and Treasury - 5/4/45 Playfair of British Exchequer tells U.S. Treasury representative of delay in naming British represen= tative who would serve only to work out program, then be replaced - 5/4/45 160-163 169 f. 173 176-180 167-196 211 220 245 252 Surplus Property Senstor Janes M. Mead Chairman National Defense Comultee) thanks 1047 for letter 5/3/45 Gillette (Chairman of Board) thanks HMJr 5/4/45 Peble report for week ending March 31 - 5/4/45 130 225 273 ff. Book Page Book Page - P (continued) Post-Mar Planning : C V-E Day United Kingdom EMIT congratulates General Clark - 5/3/45 Laughlin Currie account 4/24/45 of conferences with British officials on post-war policy. He accuses 844 107 them of forming anti-Russian Western European bloc they defend policy, which in becoming British political issue. Finda optimian on economic outlook 844 213 If. Wer Refugee Board General - cables: RB accepting Mann's offer to assist octelland 295 Schwartz 5/3/45 re funds for liberated refugees in Belgium Robertson, Nathan Fost-War Planning: Germany Trobe 5/3/45 re personnel movements Trobe 5/3/45 re funds 100 r. Mann from London re fundo for Polish relief 5/3/45 Grew to Winent 5/3/45: U.S. Government will now contribute $1,500,000 to Intergovernmental Comhittee. Authorizations for various excenditures Convitt asking about individual refugees in Poland Roosevelt, Franklin D. Condolences Lord Keynes sends HMJr program of memorial service held in King's College Chapel, Cambridge 4/21/45 227 IT. & HMJT tells Connelly to reaint Trumm, before be seen Winthrop Aldrich, that Treasury in suins Chase Bank a) Asks for his approval on "Germany" articles HMZr congratulate Truman on retrenchments in Federal expenditures - 5/3/45 Towson, Colonel Coe to meet with: to send to Philippines or Argentina 98 288 Bell suggests that monthly reports of activities be resumed - OK'd by HAWT 5/4/45 HMJr letter 5/4/45 to Treasury employees urging them to stay after V-E Day 289 290 296 ff. 313 Judah Magnen nako approval for request to Hugarian Government for information re help needed by Budapent Jews 5/5/45 139 f. Lesvitt re relief to children 576743 Italy cables atteotti re Italian relief 5/4/45 Treasury Department Regulations on practice of attorneys before Treasury Department: change in regulation submitted by Gaston - 5/3/45 funds 5/4/45 6/5/45 108 152 5/4/45 Leovitt re individual refugees 5/4/45 Sternbuch to read Hatzala re funds for Shanghai 98, 200 149 150 287 Leavitt denying possibility of obtaining American Red Cross supplies 5/L/i.5 International Relief and Reacue Committee: re D 142, 148 5/4/45 envittito Probe re May budget for each country Truman, President Harry T. 141 Goldstein re Italian relief 5/4/45 Palestine cablen 132 314 292 285 286 Packer (Ankers) 5/4/45 re possible entrance into Palestine of non-Turkish refugees from as Drot- 231 tingholm 5/4/45 271 293 Sweden cables Report on 7,000 refugees released through Count U- Bernadotte 5/3/45 Johnson 5/3/45 re 6,000 refugees from Ravensbrueck Leavitt 5/4/45 re search service in Stockholm Vead Hatzola to Sternbuch urging aid to liberated United Kingdom Brand sends report on gold and dollar balances as of 3/31/45 5/5/45 Lend-Lease campa 5/4/45 300 134 ff. 0 143-146 151 291 299 Book Page - W. (continued) C War Refugee Board (continued) Switzerland cables Sternbuch 5/3/45 to Vead hatzala PO funds McClelland 5/4/45 re arrival of convoya with 300 844 147 refugees from Kauthausen 294 Jews, now in Salzburg region 5/5/45 312 Rieen-r lists 16 people active in persecution of 2 5/14 - 00 given to Mr. Coe for Col. McCarthy -2"9. is an Interin program, pending the formulation of May 3, 1945 9:00 a.m. more definitive arrencements, this Government would favor fomulation of an immediate program by the Reportions Commission along the following lines: "n. During the initial period following the collance REPARATIONS Present: Mr. D. 1. Bell Kr. Clayton Gen. Hilldring Kr. Pauley Mr. DuBois Mr. Glasser Con. Richardson Col. Chandler Col. Brownell Mr. Hiddleberger Mr. Fowler Mr. Lovett Mr. Hard Col McCarthy Mr. Downey Mr. Cox Mr. Despres Kr. Lutheringer of Germany each of the four occupying powers - Great Britain, Kussia, France and the nited States any remove from its zone of occupation in Germany plants, equipments and materials (including current output) of such 8 nature and not in excess of such amounts 62 may be determined by the Reparations Commission. It shall be our policy to press for inclusion in such an initial removal schedule the categories of plant, equipment and materials described in paragraphs 30, 31 and 32 of the Directive to the Commander in Chief of the United States Forces of Occupation Regarding the Military Govern- ment of Germany and In paragraph 3 R. above. "b. the decision 88 to whether or not the removal of particular plants, equipment or materials out of a zone in Germany is consistent with the purposes of occupation would be nece by the commander of such zone, subject to the folloving conditions: "1 There would be constant consultation between zone Kr. Coe comancers. Ur. Lubin "11 In making 5 decision 85 to removal the zone couranger would be responsiole for carrying out any relevant s reed policies which may be formulated from time to time by the Control Council. Lt. Fancroft MR. CLAYTON: Have you . copy of this, Lr. Secretary? (Indicates Attachment A.) "ili The Control Council would have an opportunity to consider any particular renoval and could veto it. Mr. Secretary, as have two documents here. one dealing with the aspects of the reparations problem sinus the labor question, and another document dealing with the labor question. I suggest that ke proceed with the document we were dise cussing when we last net, and take up the labor document later. "ix Regular reports should be made to the Control Council of transfers for reparation account and the Control Council should keep appropriate Allied agencies currently We had finished with paragraph number eight, 1 believe in our other meeting, so we will go DOB to paragraph nine. occupying powers could allow, If it so desired, any other informed. "c. During this initial perion any one of the four SPRECISION MICROFILM MARK ROLL 4 3 I MR. LOVETT: The point, Mr. Pauley, that was running through my mind was, are the to use the three basic yard= sticks in the Yelts protocol? Are be to weigh the damage suffered by the countries on . merely physical basis, or United lintion entitled to reperations In the form of renovals from Germany to take out of Its zone plants, equipment and materials of such B nature and not in excess of such amounts as may be determined by the Reparations Commission. Such removals would be subject to the policy and conditions specified in sub-paregraphs (a) ADG (b) above. do ze include dollars of expenditure, loss of life, and that sort of thing? In other words, it will take quite # with degree of preparation in order to cover that, and T assume that be dian't attempt to cover it here. "d. Records should be kept of all cellveries made or reperations account under such interis arrangements and such deliveries should e made without prejudice to the VR. PAULEY: I think that is correct. final allocation of reportion theres. The deperation VR. HELL: Does the Commission have to approve this Commission should determine the principles for valuation of such deliveries. handling in renoval of all industrial plants? KR. CLAYTON: The physical job of dismantling. MR. CLAYSON: Reginning with paragraph U. are there any comments? That is a rather long one. MR. BELL: Supposing in the zone the British are occupying do they have tue authority to go sheed and dismantle and remove the Industrial plants from the zone Are there any consents or 10? first one is just 8 request for information really, .. to whether or not that last sentence in the first paragraph reading, "The reparation geney should be given continuing responsibility for drawing up et regular intervals detailed schedules of the amounts and kinds of reparations itear to be delivered and should have authority to determine the allocation of specific items mont claiment governments. I suppose se realize that we are not covering any basis for allocations, but I assume that is celiberate 80 that the Commission would consider in its instructions the problem, although It isn't defined in the neco here. MR. CLAYTON: I think that is correct. I take it it is one of the jobs of the separations Commission to deteraine the amount of recerations and the allocation between tue different claimants. MR. PAULEY: Yes. Well, unfortunately this document won't be binding on the Commission. It is only our policy 65 set forth, and we have yet to nepotiate with the other nations. MR. CLAYTICN: Right. without the approval of the Reperations Commission? : ( ER. LOVETT: Yes, sir, I have . ecuple on ten. The MR. CLAYTON: Well, I take it that the Reportions Commission, as stated here, will indicate to the none consander the specific items which it would like to have removed. MR. HELL: They can't do anything until the Reportions Commission specified that particular plant. MR. CLAYSION: That could be my understanding from the document. JR. LUBIN: There are two phases in this thing. In the early stages the Commission may say to the zone commander in Pritain, "As far 68 be are concerned you can move out any plants within these categories. They probably would be the same categories in 30, 31, and 32 that are going to have to be dismantled and torn donn, and during that period he can go ahead and do it. Then, also, the Central ission can say to the French, "You can case in and take any plants you want. Records will be kept, and they will be debited to the receiving countries. That is the first phase. 5 6 ( Then there is a second phase. MR. HELL: Put there is an allocation of that so there would be . sort of equal credit to the reparations account of those particular countries. It wouldn't give the country who has administrative supervision over the zone with all industrial plants an sovantare by getting those plants for itself. MR. CLAYTON: That i: definitely the function of the Commission. The job of the actual physical removal would be, I should think, the function of the zone commander, but it is the function of the-- MR. BELL: The country to which it is allocated 1. determined by the Commission. They have no advantage by having the zone that has all the industrial plants In it. VR. LUBIN: They may remove such plants, equipment, and materials of such a nature and not in excess of such amounts GB may be determined by the Reperations Commission. MR. BROWNELL: During the early period the only linitation is the amount each country may remove from its zone. That amount is fixed by the Reportions Commission, but your understanding that periodno youallocations are correct attempt in at during initial is made. Non, upthe to the amount stated, Russia would be able to take out all of . certain type of property, or France would be able to take out all zones. of its certain type of property from their respective MR. BELL: Who appraises it? VR. BROWNELL: After removal it is reported by the Control Council, and the Reparations Commission would then have the job of appraising it. MR. HELL: And there still might be an adventage then to the country. VR. FROWNELL: There is definitely an advantage to the country that has a richer zone. There is provision for equalizing that all out in the over-all final plan, because the value of reterations taken during the initial period mouid be taken into consideration in any final allocation. MR. BELL: It is possible for one country to get . larger share of the reparations total than another country. COL. HROWELL: During the initial period certainly, and it may be very difficult to equalize it in the over-all period. MR. LUHIN: There are two limitations. First the Reparations Commission determines the nature of the plant that can be removed and the maximum that can be taken out so that If the Commission is fair in its allocations it can say, "You can't take out more then one-half billion dollars north of property during this period, which leaves everything else. MR. DESPARS: On this point in the interio program as in peragraph 9 in the long term program and BE in the paragraph 10, the thought, 85 I understand it, behind Interim program is the if you attempted to impose & general freeze on any removals until after a full-fledged reportions body had been established that that would be an untensable position and the attempt is made in the interio program to get the heparation Commission to propose that the deparation Commission establish the upper limits as to what can be removed during that period and also the types of equipment that can be removed, and within those limits each occupying power will be free to remove either for its ORD benefit or to some other Allied country if it chooses to do so, equipment, plants, and materials. MR. BELL: They have to adjust it in the later period. Kk. DESPIES: This is an attempt to rectify things particularly during the initial period. Wh. CLAYTON: It depends on how long the initial period lasts. If the heparations Commission could agree fairly promptly on those things, why the amount of stuff that would be removed here in the initial period would be relatively small, but in the long term It is the function of the separation Commission to allocate these plants. TRADE MARK MICROSTAT MICROFILM ROLL NO 8 7 ( ( Rob, you had another point, I think, on ten. MR. LOVETT: I ADD afraic I haven't ande my point clear. to not talking about that part of the perograph, but about the second sentence which relates to the execution of the plan, whether the Control Council should have authority owithhold that plant from France. Now, in that case seventy-five percent of the Control Council might be favorable to withholding, but one member of the Control Council could block and stop the withholding merely by voting no. End it is not provided that that should be referred to the I MR. LOVETT: Yes, in the third peragraph starting, "The occupation authorities should DO responsible of the plan within the execution plan, the Control Geranny. In have the execution for thetoof Council should the authority withhold from transfer as reparations specific items the renoval of which in its judgment would reduce the available economic means below the minimus required to meet the other obligations of the occupation. : have just really . general have it clearly in mind. Souldn't it be possible under Governments in question. question there as to the machinery. Perhaps Lubin may NR. LURIN: Oh, yes, the next sentence covers that. this language for the separations Commi say, in the hussian The to give the and theit and then it to MR. LOVETT: Yes, but : sean it this particular stage It is referred only by t zone commander to-- ssigned Control Hussiano plant Council, decline X Control up, Council zone to votes-- to France: have goes France, Britain, and the U. S.--for renoval of the plant. Russin still says no, and under the Control Council arrangements, the plant is not moved. The query is whether it would be appropriate or desirable to provide in this specific vote? type of question that the Control Council net by enjority JR. LUBIN: I don't think It is within our function to tell the Control Council how It must run Its business. I mean, that in already 6.0 agreement between the four countries relative to how they will operate. The situation BE ze visualize It in this: The commending generals in our zone are going to have this plant. They go before the Control Council and present their CESC. They have a chance to sit dont and discuss it, and we assume that after dircussion pro and con they may come to some agreement. Let's assume that they don t case to on agreement, and then our ocemanding general notifier Washington think that the first thing that would happen here is that the State Depart- ment would get in touch with the Hussians and other people and rey, "he have ot to have this plant, and we are oing to tell our general he can keep it. In other words, what Te rent to do 1b avoid any dognatic quick decision. If we are going to over-rule the Commission et any point, we nant the Governments to rit dont and telk it over; and if they can't settle It in Herlin, do It via their embersies in their major Governments. MR. LUFIN: the Control Council. If the Control Council over-rules him on fl three to one vote, then the zone consender roes back to his Government, and his Government confers with the other powers. t MR. LOVETY: Tell, I think I am telking about the reverse situation. Let's leave the zone commanders out for the purpose of trying to make the point clear. If the Control Council agrees that something should be done by a seventy-five percent vote, the twenty-five percent vote of one member can stop the action. Now, that doesn't give those three votes necessary authority to go back to their Governments at all. The question I am raising is whether or not in spite of the over-all program of the Control Council by one vote to block action where It requires unemimous action It is necessary or desirable-- and : don't know that it is--to include with this specific type of problem 8 provision requiring majority vote which would mean that any three members could make 8 decision. it. MR. COS: 1 think In the first place ze can't make I don't think we can make it in this context because we have already negotiated with the other Governments an agreement about the Control Council and its method of operation. It seens to me, though, that in making such a decision you have to PO over the whole genut of things that N TRADE MARK MICROSTAT MICROFILM ROLL NO 9 10 10 ( mean anything over a period of time, then it seems your Control Council is going to break down, anyway. I think, come up in the occupation, because the miole theory of the Control Council and the zone counender is apparently based myself, it will mean & lot over a period of time. on the fact that what you all onn get MR. DESPRES: I think there is another point in this connection, and that is this, as we have it formulated now, the Control Council, if unanimous, can block removal. If the Control Council is not unanimous, the commander of the zone in which the property in question is located can with the approval of his Government block removal. If together on unanimously you afree in upon the Control Council; and you don't do that, full power resider in each zone to do what it likes. MR. LOVETT: You may be right. I fill just getting this doubt off my chest. (Mr. Downey leaves the conference temporarily.) MR. COE: I think there are a lot of questions where we would rather have it go by majority If we could. MR. LOVETT: Now, the only purpose of adopting a majority rule would be to enable three commanders to blook removal from & fourth zone when the commander of that VR. LOVEST All the esking is whether it is an Intelligent thing to GO to try to remove this category of questions from the basic unanimous requirement and put It on the besis of the as jority vote. I don't know syself. simply raise the question. block we a fourth zone was prepared to let the item go out. I think that if rule that the other three could I . removal, there were that such if a proposed that kind of rule, inevitably that would be tied up with a counter proposal Then I would say we would have to go along with It If we supported this, namely, that the other three commanders could force removal from a fourth sone in the face of MR. DuBOIS: There are two points. In the first place, of course, each zone conhander would have control of his our zone, and two, isn't this true that we provide all the way through here by review by the Control Council-it seems to as as a prectical matter, even though you have theoretics possibilities of one blocking it, that after a everything. MR. DESPRES: In other words, If the three other commanders should over-ride the commander in the fourth zone when he wanted to remove something, I would say they while the pressure of the three Governments telling another Government, "he don't ment this thing done, in a sense like your Security Council where the pressure of opinion is such that It amounts to something, even though one vote may block it--in other words, take for example when a specific issue comes up as to whether or not specific kinds of plants should be moved out of the justian zone, and the British, U. S., and French commanders say, "Le don't think that should CO out, that means something to the vassions. have to be able to over-ride in this opposite case when the commander in the zone wants to retain something. MR. LOVETT: If that is sound, and It may be, then I think we have got to bring the language in the next sentence into agreement with the principle and cut out the word essential and substitute something less than that, because essential is too restrictive, 1 think, on General Aisenhower (Secretary leaves the conference temporarily.) HR. LOVETT: It is more restrictive than the sentence before. It relates to the use of judgment in reducing VR. LOVETT: Do you think it does? It hear't in available economic means below the minimum required, whereas the next sentence the zone commander is limited by the fact that retention must be based within his zone on something that is essential. That seems to me to be much too tough Bucharest, Sofia, or Budapest or Austria. SR. DuBOIS: That depends or whether or not you assume it doesn't mean anything. If you assume that it goesn't C in PRECISION MICROSTATI TRADE MARK MICROFILM 11 11 C a word. If it relates to the feeding of troops, for 12 example, it may be necessary to give then a certain number of calories a day, but they can sustain life on half that, and it is & question of whether you would call the difference ( between those two yardsticks essential enough. VR. LOVETT: If you said that, that would meet my point completely. VR. LUBIN: That determination would be up to the zone commander. In other words, if Eisenhower said, It is essential that 1 have thirty-six hundred calories & day, and If his Government agrees with him, he keeps the food. FR. LURIN: That is what it says. COL. PROWNELL: Thy shouldn't the sease language be used with respect to the judgment of the zone coulander or you have used with respect to the judgment of the Control Council and my, After review in the abrance spreement the zone commander, If he believes that the retention of any specific Item within his zone in necessary to maintain the required-+to meet the other obligations MR. LOVETT: I don't read it that way. of LUBIN: It says, the zone commander if be believes that the retention of any specific item within his zone is essential to the purposes of the occupation, MR. of the occupation ---- it is now drefted, the question will he decided in the light of essentiality both by the may with the specific consent-- zone communder and on review by the government; and If you MR. LOVETT: So that the yardstick set up for him is essential. follow the Impange strictly, bots the government and the zone commander would have to determine that something WAS essential, that they couion't possibly get along without 11. The the yardstick should apply in both places. MR. LUBIN: As related to his own government. That oriteria comes in only when he is dealing with his own government. 0 MR. LOVETT: His yardstick is whether he believes it is essential to the purposes of the occupation. MIL LUBIN: And if he does, he may ....with the specific consent of his Government withhold the removal of such Item. MR. LOVETT: I will only talk about the word essential. MR. LUBIN: His government will determine whether it is essential enough. MR. LOVETT: Why don't you leave It out and put the burden on his Government? Here he can' do anything, as 1 read this, unless be believes that the retention of this specific item is essential to the purpose of the occupation. MR. LUBIN: In other words, If the other three Governments think that the thing should go out and he still wants It in his zone, then he ought to convince his Government that it is essential. There are many things that pernapa should be exempt and would be exempt if the Control Council should care to agreement that they aren't essential, but still would be the minimum required to meet the other obligations. (air. kiddleberger enters the conference.) NH DESPRES: Representatives of the four Governments could sit down in Berlin and argue it out and it in agreed that the Items should leave the area, then if be still wants the Control council over-ruled by his Government, which we are maying he can do, then I think he ought to show his Government it in essential for him to have it. COL. FROMELL: I think essentiality is too strong 0 yardstick to place on the zone commander. MR. LUBIN: I don't think it is strong enough. COL. ARD WELL: It means he can't possibly ret along without it, that he can't possibly bring food or something else in from the U. 5. to take its place. A balance of convenience, A balance of desirability, or even & balance of necessity might indicate that the Items should be 14 13 13 - ( 14 - I in & case of that kind, then there is no use in using the retained in the zone for c while. There is no real reason for imposing that be cannot do it during the first period. end"essential. KR. COE: Maybe it is a poor example. During the Interia period such weaker language is used. MR. PAULEY: I can't see where the phrase "essential to civilian requirements, ACC so forth, deports in any may from the discussion at Yalta. That is the theory on the basis of this whole thing, and of long C E the matter of interpreting the word "essential and what it means is strictly within the hands of the zone cornander who represents tais Government, I see no hazard there. FR. LUBIX: If the zone commander presents his case the Control Council and it is over-ruled and he still wants to to have his way, he ought to make . dann good case to his Government that he can't get along without it. COL. PROVELL: That would be so if it isn't for unanial ty rule. PAUIFY: That has already been agreed upon, COL. FROENELL: There are many things, Kr. Pauley, that probably should be retained which it could be argued were not absolutely essential. unaniality MR. LURIN: You are saying to the U. S. Government, MR. PAULEY: But It is strictly within the hends of the zone commander. COL. BROWNELL: It is not entirely, if you limit his by the word "essential. This point, Incidentally, in real point which WAS discussed In the working counittee, and there is one school of thought that the Lone consender should not be allowed to block 6 withdrawl unless there is no other possible means for his taking care of the need in question. To take en extrese example, it might not be essential for him to retain certain food because it would be possible to import from the United States additional food. Yet on balance it signt be most desirable to do it by keeping the food in the zone instead of requiring addit1 onal food to be snipped from the United States. be should be given more play and more road for --MR. CLAYTON: May I just comment on that, Colonely don't quite see the point. I mean, I don't see the spiness of your example there, because I can hardly conceive that you would ship food out of Germany if the United States EDD going to have to ship it back in. MR. COE: This is specific language with repard to that. COL. BROWHELL: That only relates to the German people, and If it i s intended to give the zone co.zunder the right 0 "Listen, give this guy the right to get into a controversy with his colleagues who have already over-ruled nin, and I think before we give him that privilege be ought to make a dean good case that it is going to be hard to get along without this article, and he ought to show his Government before his Government goet to the Russians and says, The are sorry, we are going to let this guy keep this, anyway. He ought to E° to his Government and BLOW that it is essential. VR. LOVETT: It is hard to explain what really is in mind. I an asking whether the matter of essentiality my can't be left to this Government to determine rather than have the commander on the spot limit it in the referral of the thing to something that he feels is essential. There is no question bout the Government in my mind having the ultimate responsibility for determining whether you are to keep It or give it up, and if they ment to ship stuff in this country rather than have him retain the thing that he feels is necessary, that is O.K. I all wondering whether we are not limiting the zone commander to the type of problem he can refer. That is the basic thing. MR. CLAYTOI: May I c omment on that, Bob? You say that If the zone commander wants to Let stuff go out, 16 15 ( 16 15 if you are going to ship food out of Germany when you know that the U. S. Is going to have to promptly ship it back there, you are running the risk there that the 1. S. is going to be paying for reparations. think. MR. LOVETT: That is what it very defenitely does, I MR. CLAYTON: I don't think any of us want to pronote a policy of that kind, and that any of us would sgree to a policy of that kind. MR. LOVETT: This is not provided for in this document. I think Mr. Glayton has a good point. MR. DuBOIS: This says, "...if be believes that the retention of any specific item within his zone is essential to the purposes of the occupation-- now, that principle of occupation is already provided for in this document. MR. LOVETT: It is only in the interin period. MR. DuBOIS: No, the earlier principle. I think what you say is made clear, and this says essential to the purpose, so I think it is already covered. MR. LOVETT: I don't think it is nearly clear enough, but it just wouldn't make any sense for us to divert stuff from the Pacific war to occupational troops in Germany so that reperations could be paid to soce other country. KR. CLAYTON: It not only doesn't make any sense, but we provide in here that we shall ot do it. For example, on page two, sub-paregraph D. "This Government opposes any reparations plan based upon the assumption that the United States or any other country will finance any reconstruction in Germany or reparation by Germany. If you ship food out Then again on the bottom of page four--on my copy it in page four, sub-paragraph K. says, "It will be inevitable that the German standard of living will be adversely affected by the carrying out of the Reperations Plan. However, the reportion exactions should be held within such limits as to leave the German people with sufficient means to provide minimum subsistence standard of living without sustained a there is going to have to be shipped from this country supplies which he has given up. 1 don t see that at all. And I think that there is in this document--11 there isn't, there should be 8 provision that under no circunstances will the U. S. agree to any policy which would result in reportions being paid for by the U. S. And of Germany which makes the food situation so desperate there that the 11. S. has got to immediately or shortly thereafter ship the food back in, why then we are paying reparations, which, of course, none of us want to do. outside relief; but under no condition should this limitation operate to require the retention in Germany of means to support basic living standards on a higher level than that existing in any one of the neighboring United Nations. And then 4. says, "To the extent necessary to pay for such minimum German imports BE may be determined to be essential, recipient countries should be required to pay so for BE practicable for German exports, except removal of existing plant and equipment. Imports for which payment will be sought shall include supplies imported by the occupying forces for displaced persons and German civilians. It is not quite 88 explicit in this document as it WAS in the previous one, and T think that is . meakness of it, that under no conditions shall the 11. 5. be placed in such 0 position that it will be, in effect, paying reparations. That was a point that Presicent Roosevelt B&S very explicit on in our conference with him, and he was very determined that we should not this time be in the position of removing things from Germany for the benefit of other countries in reparations to the degree and extent that would make it necessary soon thereafter or at some leter date to supply that or some other item to the German people, thus, in effect, resulting in the United States paying In part the reparations. The item that you mentioned, Colonel Brownell, would be out at once if we make this document as clear 68 we should make it. 18 17 - 18 - 17 COL. BROWELL: Er. Clayton, I don't think it would be. Ithat is nasthisvery point, and 1 an sure used--nnd think the language point important 1 think my colleagues on the working committee tgree--would restrict the power or discretion of the zone cowlander. As W&B pointed out, If be thinks that different standards should be pieced on the zone commander than we have placed on the Control Council or that we have placed on the zone commander during the interim period--we have discussed examples in the working committee. For instance, the one of synthetic oil plants Is usually used. Now, this language la intended by my colleagues to make it harder for the zone commander to may that something is required for his zone and to make it barder for the Government to say that something is required for the zone, because the test is one of essentiality rather than the test that is imposed on the Control Council, End that is test it he not the minimum required to meet the other Let's take our old synthetic oil plant again. There is a synthetic oil plant in the American zone. The zone commander says, need that in order to keep my troops mobilized. The Reparations Council and the Control Council say, "Give it up. Now, as I understand some of the previous discussions, the theory has been O.K. He gives it up even if he has to ship in & new plant or new geroline, or whatever it may be, from this country. lie feel that that enipaent is . method of forcing the United States to pay reperations. is would be just DE well off if we shipped that gasoline, well, say, direct to Russis and kept the German plant. MR. FORLER: Mr. Lovett, I have & suggestion. H.M.JR: It is an unfortunate example. VR. LUEIN: That means me have got to keep all the obligations. I don't see the logic of imposing 8 stiffer German industries going. test should be used that you used in laying down the rule for the Control Council. peragraph 4. We have the provision, To the extent necessary I would not discuss the point no such if It were not that it Coes so to the heart of want our Amy commander is allowed to do. to be essential-- now, that would be your petroleum to keep your wheels turning. "Recipient countries should be required to pay so for as practicable for German exports, except renovals of existing plant and equipment. requirement on the zone commander, and I submit that the same to pay for such minimum German imports as any be determined 11. LUHIN: "After review by the zone commander" wouldn't this meet your requirements? The zone commander may withhold removal of any specific item if his Government designates such items as essential to the purpose of his VR. CLAYTON: Equipment? KR. FORLER: Equipment. In order to make it clear, we sey, Exports required to pay for such minimum imports shall be charged to current production prior to reporations. That means that the amounts required to pay for your imports of oil, rubber, food, or whatever the items may be, would be paid for with Germen exports before those exports could be charged to the reperations account. occupation. KR. CLAYTON: Does that meet your point? COL. BROWNELL: That would not meet my point. VR. LUBIN: The Government decides, and not the officer. MR. LOVETT That would help, I think, to meet my main objection, but Kr. Clayton has raised a point that MR. FOWLER: We can repair that by one sentence in it seems to ae is not clearly covered in this porticular draft. MR. CLAYTON: Or credited to it. Be had that language in the previous draft, and I think we should have it again. VR. FORLER : I think we intended to have it. 20 19 -201 19 1R. LUHIN: Joe had the word "from current 1067, the March 23 document. MR. FORLER: To make that case? Mil. CLAYTON: This March 23rd document says, The first charge on all approved exports --President "oosevelt himselfthe wrote in that word himself, the word approved. It was only change he made. The first charge on all approved exports for reparations or otherwise shall be a sun necessary to pay for imports. MR. FORLER: I think it in very important to put that in here. KR. CLAYTON: I think we should have it, too. MR. FORLER: Then I visualize that if you had fifty million tons of coal to export and it appeared that you were going to have to import & certain quantity of oil and rubber, the countries that wanted that coal would have to pay for it, and you would use that money to pay for the imports in terms of dil and rubber. And before anybody could get the coal for nothing, you would have charged them out of current production the amount necessary to take care of your importing program. MR. LOVETT: That covers it. H.N. JR: Is that all right? MR. DuBOIS: Yes. MR. CLAYTON: In putting this sentence which I have just read from the March 23 document into the document which me are now reviewing, the sentence reads, "The first charge on all approved exports for reparations or otherwise shall be 8 sum necessary to pay for Imports. It has been suggested that in putting that sentence into the present document that we should except from it, existing plant and equi passent." In other words, if you approve the removal of certain plants or equipment for reparations, you should not require payment for that or align against that to cover any necessary imports. production. MR. FORLER: "Exports required to pay for such minimum imports shall be charged to current production prior to reparations from current production. 101. CLAYTON: I don't think "current production" is sufficient, Joe, because there might be large inventories of food or scale other materials on hand which-VR. FORLER: Right. MR. CLAYTON: which ought to be covered. MR. FORLER: ...charged to export of stocks, raw materials, or current production of semi-fabricated or finished production. MR. DESPRES: I think you have an idea here, Joe, which I all not sure your sentence brings out. I think the notion you are trying to get at is that production for export to pay for minimum imports shall be 5 part of the minimum economic activity in Germany that me deem essential. don't think your language quit expresses that. I MR. CLAYYON: Le had the exect language. It in in MR. LURIN: I think the additional wording you suggest is better, except plants. KR. CLAYTON: Yes, I think this covers it if we put in parentheses. Read what you have got there now, 28. DESPRES: "The first charge on all approved exports for reportions or otherwise, other than removals of existing plant and equipment, shall be 6 sur sufficient to pay for authorized imports. MR. CLAYTON: .shall be assumed necessary to pay for imports. HR. DESPRESS shall be a sun necessary to pay for imports. PRECISION MICROFILM TRADE MARK ROLL NO. 22 21 21 22 ( C MR. FOWLER: such minimum German imports as may VTH. VeCLOY: ...and the repoval of those roods from be-- MR. DESPRES: How about just saying "authorized imports?* Mr. CLAYTON: Or "approved?" we said "approved exports." MR. DESPRES: "Approved imports." Might that be the first sentence of our paragraph 41 MR. CLAYTON: It is agreeable that we substitute that sentence as read for the following in paragraph 4, "To the extent necessary to pay for such minimum German imports as may be determined to be essential, recipient countries should be required to pay so for as practicable for German exports, except removals?" The proposal is to substitute the language which Mr. Despres read for the sentence I just read. Is that agreeable with everybody? MR. DESPAES: You might keep both, make the recipient countries pay. MR. CLAYTON: Well, all right, 1 as agreeable to ( as keeping it, but I would cut out the prhase ...$0 far practicable, because I think they ought to be required to pay for any consumer goods of any kind that they get if that means that me are going to have to reimport It. its. LUTHRINGER: Hr. Clayton, 1 think that phrase was written in, as I recall the discussion of the working group, because It was argued that some countries like Czechoslovakis would be wholly without foreign exchange resources and wouldn't be able to pay for goods which were essential to relief. Now, if we have to make this absolute, why it is made absolute, but I think there are going to be & great many tough situation arise. MR. CLAYTON: Well they can. If Czechoslovakis requires goods in Germany for relief for which they are unable to pay-(Col. McCarthy leaves the conference temporarily.) Termany meens you would have to ship in something in place of it, then think that the U. S. should decide whether it sants to extend this relief to Czechosiovekin. NO. COL: You can't settle relief financing methods in there reportions. Life CLAYTON: Head the sentence again, please. Please match tals carefully because it is important and you propose to put it in SE the first sentence in perograph 4 of this document, The first charre on all approved exports for reparations or otherwise (other than removals of existing plant and equipment) shall be a sum necessary to pay for approved imports. Accordingly, to the extent necessary to pay for such minimum German imports as any be determined to be essential, recipient countries should be required to pay for German exports, except for renovals of existing planta and equipment. VE. CLAYTON: If there la no dissent, that change will be made In paragraph 4. Now, let's come back to your 10. It seems to as that the burden of proof ought to be on the zone commander of any sone If he is agreeable to the renoval of any plant or equipment from his zone for which the other three zone con- are renoval. I Bob, that the manders think, placed him, It on seems burden ofrequesting proof is properly and to IX that this language is not too restrictive. Mr. LOVETT: 1 think the burden of proof should be on the zone commander If he is the minority fellow and of course, the decision should be left to the Government. to the language drawn 1 that, as serely tryingsoget toasenable him to refer It to the Government for decision without having to make a above of essentiality at that stage of referral. Hit. DUHOIS: be doesn't have to make a show to the other commanders, as I understand this language. if he leaves it. it is essential he report that fact to his Government. I think It is different from the case that Colonel Brownell put up. It is one thing to say If all four commanders get together and reach an agreement; it is another thing, as Mr. Clayton C PPRECISION TRADE MARK MICROSTAT MICROFILM ROLL NO 23 24 23 C 24 says, that this fellom is bucking three commanders. If he does that, he ought to feel it Is essential before he reports it to his Government. COL. BROWNELL: The others may have a very indirect interest, and be asy have a direct interest. he should have the rurden of proof, but I think both he and his Government should be allowed to retain an item if it is required for the purpose of occupation. MR. D-BOIS: Even if they don't think It is essential. COL. BROWNELL: Even if they don't think it is essential. Essential is one hundred percent wrong wording. MR. DuBOIS: Essential to the purpose of occupation. 001. BROWNELL: It is intended for that. You wouldn't be arguing if you wouldn't want to restrict the discretion ( MR. DuBOIS: I agree, Colonel, it is an important point. I think that is why you are arguing the other side. We have already stated the purposes of occupation, and we have stated them pretty brondly in the point we just put in. If the commander feel: in the light of those purposes it in essential, that is one thing. If he doesn't feel it is essential-- EIR. LOVE?T: In it proposed to have the yardstick applied by the Government limited by the word "essential?" That is the way the language reads. The Government, of course-- VR. LOVETT: If so, it is quite . test to place on the Government. of both the zone commander and his Government. KR. DESPRESS I think the matter night be illustrated in this way: In IPCOG 1 when they call for an effort Mr. DESPRES: You don't want to restrict the discretion of this Government at all. to produce the maximum miscellaneous agricultural output, that is a part of the program of this Government. Therefore, with respect to Germany, I would say a renoval which COL. BHOWNELL: The Government also would have to come to the conclusion that it was essential. MR. DESPRES: The criteria of essentiality to the purpose of occupation will be laid down in the directives that are given to zone commanders by the Government. Now, I have the feeling that in this discussion we are about the difference that has arisen over but would however cameout, this IPCOG really 1. that talking I say that says, .essential for the purpose of the occupation. This Government is free to define Its prupose of occupation. It could be to bring the good life to Germans or onething of that sort, in which case a great deal mould be essential. But I would any that that is not a subject for this document. That is 8 subject that we do deal with in IPCOG 1. heavily interferes w1 1 th this maximum miscellaneous agricultural output objective would be contrary to the purposes of this Government under the terms of that directive. the LOVETY: we might all agree to that, Mr. Despres, but TO wouldn't be the ones that are Interpreting this thing, and . an struggling to get this language as clear as possible 80 that the poor fellows that have to decide these questions when they CODE back mon't necessarily be limited by the drafting. Xr. CLAYTON: But, Bot, if this says merely that if he believes that it is essential, it seens to me that that just becomes then a question of his conscience. COL. BROWNELL: why not save his conscience? You are saying in effect, Mr. Clayton, that he can get away with to it by interpreting the word don't Why "essential" mean something we other than essential? wethe use language have used two lines above and save his conscience? PRECISION MICROFILM TRADE MARK ROLL NO 25 26 25 C 0 MR. DESPRESS that language, "...sinium required?" would mast to reduce the capacity of Germany belon the aesns necessary on the theory that those trings cught to be brought into Germany from the outside. There will be thousands of cases of that sort. COL. BROWNELL Yes. MR. DESPRES: I think that 12 all right. N.R. CLAYTON: This is the language that is used in the sentence above, "In the execution of the plan, the Control Council should have the authority to withhold from transfer * reperations specific items the removel of which MR. FOWLER: Let ae s sk you about this case proposed that the zone commander or the Allied Control Council by the maximum miscellaneous agricultural output or coal output could take adventage of the tremendous demand that its judgment mould reduce the available economic BORDE below the minimum required to meet the other obligations of the occupation. in there will be for those products to establish . fairly high cash or exchange account with which they could purchase the minimum imports of oil and rubber. Now, in the language as you suggest here there is no burden of going forward on the part of the Control Council or the occupation forces to try and make Germany get by without running synthetic there. oil plants and synthetic rubber plants. All they have to do is just ray, If ve ship this plant out and, therefore, can't operate, that reduces the available economic minimum required to meet the other oblinations of the occupation. C Non, It seems to me that more than or autonatic certification of that sort is required. Tie are really asking the zone coomander to say that with all of the resources that may he available to tim such as production and rele outside, the removal of tais plant is going to make it impossible for him to carry out the surpose of the occupation and in, you seens the therefore, essential that he maintain it. In other Lords, are not leaving any room, It to se, for flexibility of hia operations to senieve the purposes we have in mind here, and that is going to one of the primary* we are to on May the be that tryingare place aim. Iresponsibilities suggest that languare changed, follows? think it would protably be acceptable to everyboay. 'After and the absence agree- ment, review the by the zone Control consander, Council, 11 he believes in the the removal of of any specific item from his zone would reduce the available economic nears below the sinlam require to meet ot to attain the purposes of the occupation, he may, with the specific consent of his Government-.* MR. LUMIN: Absolutely not. in would never agree to that, because there Bould be many, anny instances where re MR. LIMIN: You have not the Judgment of four people MR. CLAYTON: Fot four. KR. LUMIN: You have got the four commanders in the Control Council. I 11. CLAYTON: No. the next sentence shows that the zone commander would only 70 to the Government in the absence of agreement, to you reulon't have four. N.C. LUPIN: Well, three. MR. CLAYTON: Maybe three, or maybe two. RR. LUBIN: Four people are going to consider this; the judgment of four people is going to be involved, but there KUI be many instances where you will went to reduce the productive capacity of Germany below that which is necessary to auintain those means, and one of the purposes of this is to see that other countries are not dependent upon Germany. MR. FORLER: One of the purposes of the paper in to see how quickly Germany becomes dependent upon other sources of supply for things like oil and rubber, and that is the real concern we have here In tain peregraph. 104, LOVEST: That is true. TRADE MARK MICROFILM ROLL NO. 28 27 28 - C H.M.JR 1 don't KNOW what all this sperring in about. MR. FORLER: I think it is perfectly true that if after maximizing all of the possible exports HR. PAULEY: boy not go back to the same language that Was in there? hundred million dollars and here is your table of essential imports--and they will call for so much oil and so such rubber--and the total value of that in the fifty million dollars, and We is will twoand hundred market therefore, outside H.N.JR: Let's be more frank about this thing. I mean, you have got certain underlying principles, and we have. to get for this and is to saying two all that we hope equivalent have a deficit of fifty million dollars here to 18. PAULEY: Kay I any this? content with, and the removal of these particular plants is going to reduce our economic means below the point that Germany can afford to pay to buy rubber and oil from the outside market. Then there would be a case here. MIL LUPIN: Just 5 minute, Joe. 1.1. PAULEY: To come back to the same language that is in there, it seems to me it gives the necessary discretion MR. LURIN: 1 don't believe there would even in that, Joe. I think there would be other less essential Items that shouldn't be imported that Germany should 10 without. to our own zone commander. be must bear in mind that this document that we are drafting here is B policy of this Government, and be are only hopeful that It will be acceptable to all the other Governments concerned, and however you change this, you must not think only of your own zone commander, but remember that the thing can work gainst you With FORLER: 1 an assuring it is A completely tirht case or the essential import picture. I think it it # draftinr problem here. I with other zone commanders. I think it is entirely satis- MR. Du ROIS: Could I try one other version yours. factory and discretionary with the zone commander here to the greatest extent that it should be. NR. CLAYTON: We will have one more try, KDO that is MR. CLAYTON: Could we just listen to this one more time, Kr. Pauley? It seems to me that essentially the language which he has read is the came SB this. Just read it, please, Joe. MR. DuBOIS: "The zone commander, 11 he believer that any specific item should be retained within his zone, may, with the specific determination of his Government, is such an item is essential to the purpose of occupation, withhold the removal of such Item. MR. DuBOIS: "The zone commander, If he believes that any specific item should be retained within his zone, may, with the specific determination of his Government, if such item is essential to the purpose of occupation, withhold MR. CLAYTON Would that be agreeable to you, Pob? the removal of such item. MR. LOVETT That covers our basic point. VR. CLAYTON: Isn't that almost the same? COL. BROWNELL It does not cover the point. FR. PAULEY: 1 don't see any difference. H.M.JR: I am really getting--why don't you any what KR. CLAYTON: tell, is that agreeable to you? you are objecting to? Let's have it out. All this sparring: MR. LOVETY: That would cover ny principle. C If there is something that you don't like about it, any 10. MR. FORLER: It adds one change which I think helps : meet Mr. Lovett's point. It removes the burden of the zone TRADE MARK MICROSTAT MICROFILM ROLL NO. 29 30 - 29 - C from certifying the item is essential. All he does is any he thinks it should be retained, and it is up to this Government to make the determination. KIL CLAYTON: It puts the burden of determination of essentiality on the U. 5. Government instead of the zone commander. H.N.JR: Excuse me. ait 6 minute. Let ze BEA Mr. Lovett and General hillaring if this is all right. Can they recemmend this to the Combined Chiefs of Staff: Because this thing gets book to the very point--] understand the Combined Chiefs of Staff don't want to go along. GEN. HILLURING: I don't think-10k. LOVEST: I don't know anything about that. MR. GLASSES: Joint Chiefs of Staff. C H.S.JH: I an sorry, but I mean : think it in this thing that has been underlying this whole business. Let's get this thing. GEN. HILLDRING: From what I have heard this morning, NR. LOVETT: Well, the most we could do in any event, Kr. Secretary, is to recommend it. If we approve the language as presently suggested, 1 should think that would be entirely appropriate for General hilldring and me to state that it has our individual approval. But that is no guarantee that the language would be retained. Is that 1067 there? KAT I see it? I an not familiar with the point you particularly raised. H.M.J JR: 1 didn't raise it; the Joint Chiefs of Staff raised it. I think that Colonel Brownell- NOT. CLAYTON: Perhaps in order to not it settled once and for all, Mr. Secretary, maybe we had better read this copy of our other document. GEN. HILLIBING: I think that language is not contrary to this. I don't think you want to be in a position of approving here something which you can't at the same time recommend to these Joint Chiefs of Staff, and that is who I thought we night just as well settle It. I appreciate the fact that reperations doesn't go to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, but 1007 does, and it 1: the name point. 12. LOVETT: It is not related to this document at Mr. Secretary--and I don't know--I haven't talked to Colonel Brownell; I just listened to what he said. I don't think all. of the discussion, the Joint Chiefs of Staff did not challenge the policy of our Government that synthetic H.M. JR: But it is the same principle we have been arguing here, and every time we come up against it, me the same point is involved here. From what I have heard rubber and petrcleum could not be removed from Germany, have the same thing that is being raised, so I would like things off the black list. MR. CLAYTON: I think you would like for the reparations document in this respect to be consistent with the document despite the fact that they might need that petroleur and rubber for their minimum needs, that they didn't take those H.M. JR: No, but we have got SCLLE language. You, kr. Lovett, and you, General Hilldring--you first, please. If to ret It settled once and for all at this level. we approved on Friday. R.M.JR: That is right, so the representatives of the this language we are talking about now is acceptable, are you gentlemen in the War Department prepared to recommend "this to the Chiefs of Staff--is that what the-KR. CLAYTON: Joint Chiefs of Staff: C Army can go along with it. MR. CLAYTON: I think that is right. Now, to make sure that is the case, I think me should pause for a moment to read this short communication from the Joint Chiefs of Staff. PRECISION MICROFILM TRADE MARK ROLL NO. 32 31 C 31. 32 - (Reading "Kesorandus for the Secretary of are Secretary of the lavy, dated May 2, 1945, attachment h.) radio and electrical equipment--" and so forth. With the proposed change It would read, "prohibit and prevent production of iron and steel, checians, non-ferrous "The Joint Chiefe of Staff reccusenc that the Secretary metals (including aluminum and marmesium)--. of Larn and the Secretary of the Havy inform the Secretary of State a follows: They also propose to, "Also insert the words synthetic rubber and oil after the word 'vehicles' in "The Joint when of Staff have considered the military implications of the proposes directive to the Consander in Chlef, U. . Forces of Occupation, regarding the military line 4" of the same paragraph, which would make it read, "automotive vehicles, synthetic rubber and oil, heavy anchinery and important parts thereof, except for the purposes stated in caragraths 4 and 5 of this directive." government of Germany contained in TPCOG 1, and with the following amendments see no objections froz the military point of view: The next is "c. Delete the period and add the following words to the last sentence of paragraph 32." The last sentence in 32 reads, 'Pending agreement in the Control Council, you will put some measures into effect in your own zone, and they wish to add 'sa soon RS you had an opportunity to review and determine production necessary for the purposes stated in paragraphs 4 and 5 "n. Delete the period et the end of the last sentence, paragraph 30," and that reads, "You will not postpose enforce. ment of the prohibition contained in and to and the instructions in subperegraph c without speciTic approval of your government through the Joint clare of Staff, and add the following: '...except that, in your of this directive. I souldn't think there was anything discretion, you may permit the production of systhetic rubber end oil, alunizum and sagesium, to the minimum extent to meet the purposes stated In persgraphs 4 and 5necessary of the directive." b. in those suggestions mulch-- H.M.JR: 1 ourht to step out of the room because the Joint Chiefs of Staff evidently don't know that the Secretary of the Treasury exists, but I might point out that on the recommendation of Mr. Stimson to President That in the first recommendation and the next In Roosevelt President Roosevelt did appoint a committee composed of the Secretary of State, Art, and Treasury to and that committee, so far as I know, - LOVETT: Persgraphs 4 and S--have you ot those' But deal 1: still with in Germany, existence. notwithstanding I am here-- MR. CLAYTON: They are tert of the Graft. They relate to purposes of the occupation, cision standard of living and prevention of starvation, clease, unrest, and 10 forth that would endanger the occupying forces. I ba't know on what basis--to any that the Joint Chiefs of Staff don't know I exist--but on whatever basis 1 here, I do say that this is not acceptable to no. am MR. CLAYTON: will you excuse me just a minute, please, Nov, I have just read the first suggestion they Like. Here is the second: Mr. Secretary? I think perhaps the reason the Joint Chiefs of Staff communication was framed in the way It was is due to the fact that our covering 10.10 to the President sending this, or transmItting this document, was med by the Acting Secretary of State, and we all as a committee signed, as you remember, on the botton of it, and I Inazine that that is the reason they directed their communication in the *b. Delete the word 'excluding* in line 2, subpersgraph a, persgraph 82, and insert the word 'including* in lieu thereof. Subperagraph B now reads, "prohibit and prevent production of Iron and steel, chemicals, non-ferrous C metals (excluding aluminum and magnetium), machine tools, way in which they did. ( PRECISION MICROFILM MARK BOLL NO 33 34 -33 C 0 H.M.JR: It in just the secretariat they wished on Now, the point that we relaed the other day is that if the commanding General thought that it has necessary to meet certain production in Germany that he would telegraph the Joint Chiefs of Staff NO.O in turn would ask the President of the United States, or whoever he designated, and pending that decision be could continue production. Is that right? us here, and their method of communicating to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, but-- MR. COE: I think this has been handled as a SANCC document, hasn't it? L.M.JR: But I an just pointing It out. I am sure no discourtesy was meant. GEN. HILLDRING: Tell, Kr. Secretary, that LEE the thing that I advocated here the day that IPCOG RBS proposed, and I can't now say that that is agreeable to the (Mr. Pauley left the conference temporarily.) Joint Chiefs of Staff, but I do any this, Mr. Secretary, H.M.JR: I think it is sturid the way it was handled. but I am accustomed to that, and I Just didn't want to let It pass. But we will go on, anyway. that If IPCOG 1 had written those words into the document they ent the Joint Chiefs of Staff, that I could have sold that to the Joint Chiefs of Staff; we would have gotten . MR. FORLER: Mr. Clayton, there are several substantive document back from the JCS approved. Now, the pendulum has MR. CLAYTON: Could we pass that for a moment and gone from one extreas to the other. I ALL sure, Mr. Secretary, if you throw this back into a joint working committee he car get out of it now something agreeable to both bodies. le have been st both poles, and we have one extremity in effects on those amendments. ( stick to the reparations document? I don't think that these succestions of the Joint Chiefs of Staff really materially affect this matter that we have just been IPCOG 1 and the other extrenity here. Not, I can't may what the JOS-- discussing. MR. LOVETT: I don't, either. I don't 200 that it has-- MR. LUPIN: 1 think the can solve it, because I know the Joint Chiefs of Staff do not went to have anything at all.to say about the economic policy of the United States, and they do not intend in this document to say that Germany will be denied its ability to produce petroleum that It needs. They will not no into that question. They don't went to GEN. HILLDRING: May I say one thing about this papers MR. CLAYTON: Yes, sir. GEN. HILLDRING: I think that it can be resolved. tackle is not for them to say, and that is the point you haveit.in It mind. Mr. Chairman, if a joint consittee of this groun and of the JCS not together 1 think it can be ironed out and resolved. H.M.JH: I have got two points in mind. First, I have got that point, and it seens to me the thing you are talking about is in the reperations--they are exactly the tame point. (Vr. Hard entered the conference.) MR. CLAYTON: they we just not discuss that right now but go on with reparations? Ne just brought that In because we thought It night affect this atter we are discussing and-- ( - 34 H.M.JR: I don't arree with you. Look, If I understand this thing correctly, the point is whether in the wisdom of the commanding General in Germany he can continue production and that decision can be his. : MR. CLAYTON: Mr. Secretary, can't we settle the reparations matter now and leave the other to discussion later in connection with this document? I mean, does it make any different about this suggestion in regard to the Joint 35 36 ( 36 Chiefs of Staff 65 to whether .. should adopt tais language which Joe has just proposed? If be are all agreeable to that language, can' E.C adopt it and FO on with reparations? agreeable to everybody? I heard no objection? And if there is none, it will be adopted in place of the last sentence-in place of the third from the last sentence in item 10. Se will delete the sentence which reads, "After review by the Control Council and in the absence of agreement, the zone commander if he believes that the retention of any specific Item within his zone in essential to the purposes of the occupation, may with the specific consent of his govern= ment withhold the removal of such item. For that sentence B.H.JR: You can if the Army representatives will may that this language which we agreed on the other day BE for as this conmittee was concerned, is still acceptable to them in the form of . recommendation. GEN. HILLORING: 1 will fight for that language with all I have. ke will substitute-mill you read it please? MR. LOVET! Kr. Secretary, to to back to the history MR. DuBOIS: "After review by the Control Council and of this committee, the people that have been working on this reparations problem have not been concerned with 8 oue In the absence of agreement, the zone commander, if ne believes that any specific Item swould he retained within his zone, may with the specific determination of his Government that such ite is essential to the purpose of the occupation, ri thhold the removal of such items. of the attitudes expressed there. I think, as General Hilloring pointed out, the Joint Chiefs got off on the wrong foot because the conclusions reached here were not correctly stated in the paper subsitted to them. In fact, it EDD just 18. LUFIN: why don't you just-- the reverse. ( H.N.JRI I agree. VR. LOVETY: Naturally they here concerned about it. Now that the matter has been restored to the decision 6.5 initially made, General Hilldring and I will GO what We sp= express our views and recommendations propriately can this. That is not, however, to may be have any means of compelling the Joint Chiefs of Staff to take action one way or the other. to H.N.JH Excure me. will that be the same language as 10672 KR. CLAYTON: No, Kr. Secretary that is a reparations language, but it doesn't belong in 1067. on H.M.JR: But pending-MR. LOVETT: This deals with the permanent business. MR. DuBOIS: To this extent, you see, : I understand it, to the extent that the determination of whether or not H.M.JR: khat you said is all I want. these things are to remain even texporarily will depend upon the decision of this Government to comunicate it through MR. LOVETT: All right, sir, that is satisfactory. H.M.JR: That is all. the Joint Chiefs of Staff that they are essential even for that temporary purpose. MR. CLAYTON: Can as take up reparations? ( MR. LOVETT: Our recommendation to the Joint Chiefs H.E.JR: Yes. of Staff will be In line with the sentence just read. KR. CLAYTON: Is the language which we mere discussing unable to say. Whether they will adopt that precise language or not, I an when we picked up this document from the Joint Chiefs of Staff : 38 37 37 I 38 ( H.M.JR: That is agreeable to no. GEN. HILLIRING: I would support that view. E.M.J.: All right. 10. CLAYTON: All right, that takes care of that. Are there any other suggestions about paragraph 10? Mr. Secretary, it seems to 20 that when this is that we should have one more meeting at the risk be rewritten of somebody who will think of something else that is to changed. think it in important that we have one more meeting and 70 over it Very carefully. It 10 an entirely is to important document, as we all agree, I an sure. it this Regarations Document, I think we should have redrafted in accordance with our agreement here today and then go over It one more time. MR. DONNEY: Mr. Clavton, in one of the emplier conrestion sections this document n channe was saic in line with the that. Mr. of Bard made. is have a small suggestion to cake on ( MR. CLAYTON: On the Reportions Document? is. BARD: Paragraph 3 . at the end. WR. DONNEY: That last reference to perceant shipping. remember, it ans surgested the other day that in the of You first instance the general policy should be to ret all the merchant shipping whereVer situated into the pool. think the Havy feels also that in the eventual treatment the I of Navy shipping we should not necessarily now accept principle that It should go to the country in whose none they happen to be for the reason that so much of the German shipping by the action of the British lavy, the American and the British Air Forces, has been forced into Air Forces, in the Baltic that probably would artificially the put positions mich more in the bassian zone than normally would be FR. LUBIN: Would you prefer to have it in nine? MR. DOWNEY: It mouldn't make to hit of difference. LR. LUBIK: O.K. Each of the four occupying powers may remove from its zone of occupation in German plants, equipment and including current output and excluding oceanroinematerials coronant tomasce. MR. DORNEY: You may 97 NR. LUBIN: Yes. MR. DOWNEY: That would implementing the icen. I would like to get the idea in where lie mentioned it first that our motion is that the ships should go first into the pool and thereafter be subject to none fair division, but not . strictly zoneal division. I just want to leavenecessarily it open. JR. CLAYTON: I think the point is very well taken. .0 might nut it in both places, in g at the point that you suggested, and then put in 9 the may Yr. Lubin suggested. MR. DOWNEY: That would be perfect. MR. DESPATE: It is excluding ocean-going ships? VE. DOLNEY: that in right. ER. LURIN: Yes. KR. DOLLEY: That may not be exactly the right terminology but I think for the purposes here it is adequate. MH.pool? CLASSER: that flag will they go under when they E in the ER. DANEY: I don't know. I would like to suggest, therefore, in that case. parenthetical clause where we any that, "This Government favors the inclusion of German ocean roing tomage In the that shipping sool until the end of the war arainst Janan" [ we Incert there and its division on some fair basis thereafter. Just leave the thing oven. KR. GLASSER: I don't think you are really solving the problem by discussing its distribution after the end of the WILD with Japan, or termination of the pool. Isn't your 40 40 39 C : 13. FORLER: And by that device remove from the American reparations-- problem really first, that they enter the pool, and GEN. HILLDRING: The trouble, Joe, is that you come into the problem then of having to provide ammunition for then which has been produced only in Germany. If you could be sure that It wouldn't serve in the end to continue the plants which originally produced them in order to replace the weapons themselves, 1 think it would be all right. second, the terms on which they enter the pool, under which flag. MR. DORREY: That : an trying to do is not to be fore- closed. MR. BARD: A pool is a joint operation. (Mr. Lubin leaves conference temporarily.) 17. DOINFY: To don't know what is going to happen. MR. FOILER: That is a very good suggestion in the light of what you have said. MR. LUMIN: The flar does not necessarily determine the ownership. GLATTON: Aside from the point that General Hilldring has made, isn't It 5 good plan just to destroy MR. CLAYTON: There in one point before se leave this that stuff? first reperations document that lr. leCloy-H.M.JR: The rurel buerrerseister? C a MR. CLAYTON: No. but he and it very Food point that : don't believe 1: adequately covered, IT covered at all, in this document, and that is that gune and ammunition and things of that king should not be considered subject to removal as reparations, that they should be destroyed, and (ir. Pauley re-esters the conference.) MR. BARD: You have got a program now supplying France I think that is a good point. think 11 ourht to be covered with a lot of stuff. You wouldn't want to include ships in in there that guns and ammunition and things of that kind should not be considered 55 Items to be removed 88 reparations because of course, me don't mant to get into a question of dividing up war-making equipment with these different that. MR. DESPRES: For most types of weapons-- countries, and his point ** * that things of that kind should be destroyed immediately, and I think that that is 0 very good point. Put we can discuss it here if anybody has . different point of view. MR. CLAYTON: Not ships. MR. DESPRES: The weatons would not be good for very long unless they get replacement parts, and If we don't let them open the factories-- MR. FOLLER: Isn't it the existing production in the form of guns and war equipment tist is on hand B.S distinct from that that night be produced by the plants in question, but the existing stocks of those gust and assiun! tion--narmaking equipment--sren't they confiscated war booty? C GEN. HILLIKING: It is a two-edged sword. If we could avoid the renleecment eroblem by equiping French divisions with German equipment, we would save the American taxpayer 5 lot of money. MR. LOVETY: The French factories, to be specific, have been making parts and amunition for German metric calibers. They have n somewhat different problem. I would like to see it CO. 1 don't know whether It is apropos here or not, but we have a specific problem that I think might be brought out (Mr. Reil leaves the conference.) t 41 42 ( -42- a - 41 GEN. HILLDRING: Joe, isn't that one of your projects? to get Mr. Pauley's Judgmant on. Take n case like the vast underground factories like in Nordheusen, to be specific. There than another one with some twenty-seven kilometers of tunnels. Wordheusen has approximately four MR. FORLER Absolutely, yes, sir. hundred five thousand square feet of artifically ventilated late? manufacturing space under a mixture of limestone and granite cliff. It is almost innossible to not to it. From the DEN. HILLDITING: Aren't you working on this early and NH. FOLLER: General Minton, General Holfe and Admiral Busek are compiling-- point of view of future peace, the Air Force would like to see all the ammunition and junk we could not together put in that place and blow it up so It comes down and thereafter provide that everything that Germany builds be built on the surface of the ground, because otherwise they are going to ro underground, and as I say, these two enormous plants over there-- ARK. LOVETT: A special commission. NH. FORLER: Project one, two, and four of our group -- MH. DESPRES: It is a complicated little matter of language. There are the samples you don't want to destroy, MR. PAULEY: Certainly you Live no disagreement with no on that. and soforth. Thatis why I but keep for examination, thought it would be useful if the Lar Department-MR. LOVETT: And If--I an bringing this un now because we ought to retain enough of this exclosive or other junk to put in there and bring the whole works down. :ou could do It. GEN. HILLDRING: ily point is, rather than refer itto the lar and Navy Departments, refer it to your committee. KF. LUBIN: As far as this commission is concerned, all we went are instructions. We can't treat those things MR. PAULEY: I heartily endorse It. as reportions. How you handle them, we don't give 8 damn. MR. CLAYTON: I do, too. NR. CLAYTIC: will the working group try to include 6 peragram to that effect in that sense? Now, we have this very short document, one page and 8 quarter, on the use of MR. HARD: Some of those big plants are in the area Russia would take over. German labor and reparations. MR. LOVE'T: That is right; that is why I mention It. If we could collapse those big underground things; and If with FORLER: Lr. Chairmen, since the last meeting I have had several talks with Lr. Cromley on this point. and I want to make several points clear for the record. first, in reference to taking this matter to the public, it was we can require in some fashion that Germany thereafter--1 If they do any rebuilding at all, they be permitted to build only on the surface, I think are would 20 a long way toward very definitely implied in his remark that be preserving peace. become E only after he would have private citizen, that would and MR. CLAYTON: If the committee arrees that some crovision be written into this document recording runs and ammunition, the destruction of it, why, I sugrest that we ask the ar Department to try to draft s clause that would cover that. : there was no implication on his part as a member of this committee to transfer our discussions to the public. I think that WBS not implied, and I want to make it clear here for the record. Two, we have had discussion with him on this matter, and I am persuaded that the difference is only in language and clarity of statement and not any M ROLL NO 44 43 44 - 43 C different in substentive point of view, and the draft that TESS subsitted tere this morning would have his endorsement for inclusion either as s separate document or BE a paragraph in the paper in which we have been addressing curreives. Now we will read it. (Reads "Draft Statement of Labor Reparations, attachment v.) Son, that it the first comment to be made on this document? I.E.JR I would like to see 8 question. Are there any records of what KFE sald et Yelts with regard to this subject? have never seen one. MR. PAVIEY: I have teen it, Vr. Secretary. The point 1 BD making in, : don't thick me ment to fly in the face of something that alight It Jure our position vin-s-via Kunnia. If we knew what RES in the document MR. PAULEY: I can only say this, that the discussion was reneral, and We nt least participated in It without objection to the discussion on the use of labor, but there I that know of it the discussion or of that would preclude our taking this position that has just been read. You are confident of that? MR. PAULEY: However, my our personal position 10 this matter is that 1 don't want to express any consent on this particular thing at all, except to simply that it either C idea of the situation, however, but I see nothing inconcistent in our presentation of this viewpoint. It may not be agreed to by Russia or the British. MR. CLAYTON: I think that is the point, whether there in anything in this document which is inconsistent with the discussions that surrounded the Yalta agreement; and if there is not, I think we might proceed with the discussion, don't you, Mr. Pauley? does does not meet the entire viewpoint say this group to the President, and If there are other viewpoints, I will present these to him. I would like to have the benefit of everybody's discussion on it. MR. CLAYTON I take it there is no comment on 1. 2 in an follows: "This government in strongly of the view that Germans other then those deserving of punishment thould not be called upon to perform conculsory labor service outsi de Germany. H.W.JH: You have? nothing have read that we have said that would be contrary to MR. PAULEY: Yes. NR. CLAYTON Yes, sir, there are. I think to for 0.1 I know there are one or two copies Locked up in a safe. I was MIL PAULEY: There is nothing to date that : have read that--I should put it this way--that there is nothing I this. I don't believe that this is exectly the Russian's MR. CLAYSION: Fine. 1 MR. BAND: You don't think this paper would create a strong controversy based on what it in the Yalta agreement? MR. LOVETT: Does use of the words ..deserving of puns shanent should not be called upon to perform.. instead of sponsor, or something like that, carry F connotation of requirement of B trial of some sort? MR. FOLLER: The specific language spelling out 2 in in 3. I think your point is better raised in connection with 3 than 2. MR. LOVETT: O.K. (Secretary leaves the conference temporarily.) MR. LOVETT: It ** * to lay background for 3 where there are completely different programs, BE I understand it. Aer criminals will be tried, and a program for other groups which will not require court proceedings-- 46 45 45 C - 46 - Min. LOVETY: Either by the use of the words .deserving 0 of punishment, or responsible for certain action. MR. FORLERT They will only require those proceedings MR. BAND: I would like to bring up the question as to whether the word "Germans is broad enough. You have got Italy; you have got a strange fishy orowd that is fighting us steadily. You might have the same with the segment of the Poles that might have been back of the Gernans. don't think "Germans" is a broad enough term. that are adequate to satisfy the language that the individual is definitely determined by appropriate process to be in the group. I HR. CLAYTON: I think 3 11 the point, really, that ke want to discuss. MR. Mr. Secretary, perhaps I could elaborate on that point by saying under Nazi legislation." It is very far-reaching. I think this language would catch I MR. LOVETT: I have no views on the thing at all. 82 trying to respond to r. Pauley's suggestion that If there are any possible neek points in here E.C take a Food look at them. And reading the thing for the first time as I have here this morning-- almost any person of German descent in these areas around Germany. Mr. BARD: You've got several divisions of Italians that just surrendered. deMR. COS: Really, instead of other then those serving of punishment, it should be, ...other than those included in 3. C MR. CLAYTON: : think that 2 is sort of surpluses and 3 saye very definitely that compulsory labor services should be required only from individuals definitely of that type, and no forth. Doesn't It make 2 sort of surpluses? MR. LOVETT: This is 8 paper relating only to reparations from Germany. MR. PAULEY: I think the point is well taken, plus the fact that it is well known that the Jussians have already one million no-called sympathizers out of ( are no taken Kumania. more And than what they doing with them, one knows. KR. FORLER: I think If you nant to say ...other than those referred to in perspraph 3, It would be perfectly satisfactory. It is just a question of getting . definitive statement of principle. But I think all of those points should be discussed, not exclusively with the view of what we want to do with them, but the elem--anticipating what the Jussians' thinking along this line might be. Mr. LIBIN: In view of the fact that the first sentence MR. COE: You have the same thing In 3, Joe, "Coppulsery labor service should be required only from--- refers to the Yalta Agreement and deals only with German labor, it is necessary to use the words in 2, "This Government is strongly of the view that persons other than those." This night become B general polley with respect to the U.S. KR. FOLLER: If you want to cay that this Government is strongly of the view that compulsory labor service should be required only from individuals, trat-- "This view MR. CLAYTON I suggest that we change paragraph 2 to MR. COE: Then you have got the whole thing. read follows, other government is strongly below ofinthe that as persons than those specified 3 as deserving of punishment should not be called upon to--" KR. LOVEST You may set some essurance that vis-a-vis the American public by having a statement in tno. HR. LUBIN: will, my objection to that is this, we may find other groups or individuals who don't fit into this MR. FOLLER: That is right. C 0 category that have been cooperating with the Germans that we will want to put under the category of deserving of punishment. MICROFILM 48 47 -47- C - 48 - 0 from = criminals and individuals definitely determined by Mh. CLAYTON: That in covered in the latter part of "...or leading collaborators, supporters of and pertici. 3. appropriate process to be members of the Gestapo, and so forth. pants in the Mari party or chimistration. If it imit, the languare at the beginning of three in stone, because it trye, "Compulsory labor service should be required only from Individuals, and to forth. ER. LOVETT: When you say . from EAR criminals, does that mean that you pick then up after they DEVE been sentences, or you pick then up after they have been determined TET criminals? Because otherwise they might be centenced to si: months of here labor, whereas, you went to give them 100, with that discussion see If you with scree on this: Change 2 to road 11 follows, "This overnment It strongly of the view that persons other Last those specified in 3 below to deserving of cunimient mould not be called upon to perform conpulsory labor service outsise of Teresby," which new reads, "Compulsory labor service recold to required only free individuals definitely determined by appropriate process to be BEF criminals, members of the Gestaco, the 2.5., the leaders the Sicherheitmdienst ser S.S., of S. taree years. FORLFER As A person is convicted BE L MT criminal and individuals definitely-wh. CLASSER: This is not in lieu of punishment for eing . BAP criminal. These har criminals could go on the compulsory labor service, and either before they 70 on or after they 10 on, they could suffer whatever punishment In metec out to them by c court by judiciary process. This langusze will take care of that, because 85 8 Reportions Docusent, it doesn't rise the question whether this person is available. The court might tay he is available, and they could piek his up, or may, Lix months at hard labor. be or leading collaborators supporters of participants in the Email party or edulistration. CT, it it those two peragraphs that we are considering. MR. LOVETT: and the thing : BILL trying to raise. Mill, in the lumping to one group here of that close of REZ crimicale in which the Esp Crizes Commission Reparently is considering some sort of judicial determination and the other greep beginning with the members of the Centage, and to forth who are determined through appropriate process to be pertr of that organization. Perinps you could distinguish between them has saying something like thin. ....to be required only be from Individuals determined by appropriate process to ner criminals, and sentenced to such labor, and 3, '...Individuals definitely determined by expropriate process to he members of the Gentapo, the 55, and to forth. ( a in not available for reportions until he is nade available for that type of work. his LOVENT: But this would not stop you froe using those fellows. N.H. GLISSER: They are only available If the court saye 20. MR. CLAYTON: "Compulsory labor service should be exerted only from wer criminals END individuals definitely MR. CLAYSON: See If this doesn't meat It, "Compulsory labor service should be exerted only from har criminals or individuals definitely determined by appropriate process to be numbers of the Destapol" determined by appropriate process to be members of the Gestapo. KS. GLASSER: Kay I raise L possible change in your number 27 Can se say--instead of "es" tay, ...OF othermis deserving of punishment. "If you will resu it back, will stop you. MR. HARD: Tar criminals covers everybody, no astter whether they are Poles, French, or-CLAYTON: And Instead of "or." Then it would read, "Compulsory labor service should be required only C MR. CLAYTOE: Then you introduce qualifications that have not been covered, apparently, anywhere, and you want to c MICROFILM 44 50 - 50 my this Government is strongly of the view that persons other than those specified in 3 below or otherwise deserving of punishment--well, 2 takes care of a 000 deal of It otherwise, and 11 you want to put another--hot do you cover previously where there is & bad group Whose actions continued later, unnerground, werewolf, or whatever you want to call It. 10t. FOOLER: It is . point looking to the future that it? we service. Now, be say that in 3 me have various classes of persons that would fit that standard. Now, there may be others. You my they are covered by this general category, but really, they are not. because you la rit want to include there who are, for instance, members of the werewolf orranization or viciators of current laws or those who are opposing occuration that had not, perhaps because of are, been in the SS or the various NR. FOR LEAD That is the problem here. VR. GLUSSER: Reil, they are available for reperations if they are members of the werewolf organization. MR. LUMIN: Let's assume test some citizen BLO has never been . member of these organizations just ashotaged the occupation. MR. LOVETT: Lie comes under the active underground. MR. LUBIN: And he WAS sentenced by the American Military Court in Germany to ter years of LEFO labor, and the Court says, "Se can have him for reparations. lay shouldn't we take him?' MR. CLAYTON: Isn't that covered in 37 MR. LUHIN: It in five months from nor that this happens. MR. LOVETT: The point they are trying to make is, this deals only with those whose bed actions have occurred to take into account. It would seen to me, though, Now, when you bring in either ....or otherwise deserving of punishment, or look to it which includes catezories we aren't discussing here, or you deel with people who in the future may be determined deserving of punishment, it SHIP to me we are getting into questions that had better be handled by some kind of supplementary process other than this one here. organization. 12. CLAYTIN: The is roine to deteraine? rant that it raises some questions of procedure and of standards and tests, and what ke are really doing here is saying that now that those people who are war criminals and who are determined by appropriate processes to have been members of these groups are going to be included. V.S. GLUSSES: That want to cover is, 1 should think that in 2 that those persons BLO are deserving of punishment-that is the test of their selection for compulsory labor C will C LA. "LASSERT le are not handling--shat We are doing In number is simply saying we will not take anybody unless he is deserving of punishment. Later or we nake no provision in this document for taking care of future here. wolf organizations, but at least our policy is clear that if in the future at some future time is want to take care of them, are can under the general policy of 2. There is no provision here for taking of traffic violators or even future werewolf members to putting them or these gangs. However, our policy is such that they can be included later. AR. FORLER 1 think when you ret into this question of who is otherwise deserving of punishment without defining zbether you are referring to people who steel breed or violate scae of the Geruez laws or ordences or none of the special Less that are issued by the occupation authorities, you get to questions of degree which we are-VR. PLASSER: We are not taking those up here; as are not considering that. All we are saying is in the future in accordance with United States policy they can be considered and discussed. it are not deciding that question here at sil. M ROLL NO. 51 52 C VR. BARD: This is only advisory to the Reperations Count Sesion, anywey. If this question comes up in Vescom that this should be included EC they can discuss Itee 13. CLAYTON: See if this would cover it, "This government la strongly of the rien that Germans, other than those specified in 3 below, or otherwise determined by sppropriate processes BE deserving of punishment, should not be called upon to, and so forth. NR. FORLER: The is going to determine that they are northy of this particular type of punishment, and how that is going to be provided for? Now, is are going--in the light of the record up to date particular groups, and we are asking END for we them are available taking these eligible this type of service. It seen to me that you APR opening up Pendors boxes If you bring in any general classification to . lot of very fine questions of degree which, if you are going to provide for here--It isn't just . simple drafting problem 01 including a general category which is an open-door clause for building up this compulsory inbor service to unpredictable dimensions. MR. COE: That do you think the dimensions of this pressure groupare Joe? have you unde any figures? VR. To. MR. COR: 1 know the French themselves have LIKE for three million. Sir. FORMER: And It 1: that kind of three million requests for conpulsory labor service without reference to whether or not the individuals are--their actions or conduct are deserving of tale kind of very special extraordinary treatment which is the problem that is bothering us. It is that three million figure. KR. LUBIN: If you read tast cestence again c NA. CLAYTON: If 1 any reco my suggestion, I think it is better, "This government is strongly of the view that persons sent other than those specified in 3 below BE deserving of puni shservice should not be called upon to perform compulsory labor outsice Germany, and that ke add to 8 word the following: ....OF of other after similar the better. organizations hontile to Allied purposes." I think that in 13. FORLER: Lices that modify the leading collaborators, supporters of, or participants in, or-EN. LURIN: I would my It should, because You becomer can't member of the werewolves would do that anybody voluntarily. who force there DATE to join. MR. FOLLOW You are morrying about the werewolf little bread. which the fellow full 240 willing violetes to take the into traffice ordinace account. * or morrying steals case. . about the lazi 15. LUFIN: This trys he has not to deal--it other party or e duinistration to other extends staller organizations hostile to Allied organizations, the other future. LOPGE, to Real type or unlestions which may purposes. rise in In 11. DESPACE It would be leading colleberators, or porters, in other and participants in the Ammi perty oz sup- aliler hostile to Ailied eministration, purposes. pould NO. LUMIN: : couldn't may there you esnt to have say, ...07 members of, because if "leading," to be nee organizations In the future; they you are going embers. drafted Into their they are going to the voluntary are not going VR. FORM Is that it in organization hostile to purposes? tix sonths offer that the . are Inbor in union comunation that becomes organized, Allied say, 25. LUFIN: If you are going to get to that extreme- his That is the extress you at to. MM ROLL NO - 54 - 53 54 particular cloak foster and develop certain conspiratorial actions in which the hundred and hundreds of menters who 10. If you SERO : === to forced laber because joined it in good faith, no assuming that they were being tied into an organisation of that sort, are included into this particular type of service. (1's. Fauley leaves the conference tesporarily. Now, the groups that Be have identified here--as Mr. kiddleberger pointed out yesterday, no know that any German who became a member of these groups or was & leader, col- he Jolar . labor union, you might 57 cell stop seguing. 17. BAILD: To are makin recomendation to the Experations Committee that they CAR talk about that subject salch may come up. That is all Le are doing. laborator, supporter, or participant in the bazi party is by the token, even though he went into it with his eyes open and were what was going on--what you are talking about is something for the future. the would have no objection to Including here, "or others convicted of substantial action hostile to the purpose of the occupation deserving of similar punismment. on the other hand, I don't think me mant to in. CLAYTON: Art this mays, Ice, that be the to be determined by muproprinte process to be such . person, you not. MILK DESIGNS It says, "...other similar or sunisations," similar to the hazy party. C in. FORDER: Tell, t think this requires quite statement. Let's look these facts is the tace. libert we are doing is indulging . principle of guilt by attociation, which in justified, according to our traditions, because me think the can clearly establish , care that perfoce IDD have 6° out too far in allowing this principle of guilt by association for future organizations and future groups that may develop-- M.R. Couldn't we meet our point by perhaps another sentence zerely to the effect that menters of the underground or other organizations dedicated to the Nasi system or ideas would be eligible for compulsory lator? $ been members of the groups identified here or by that token w thout any other proof A.S to the action that they may have count Eted at members of that organization:in 30kLak: Sure, something of that sort. becoming active members of the organization they have to bound us. BAND: think if you say, as Joe has, "...or other Nazi organizations themselver Into the notr that are countted by that orisnize tion, and you are colne to, without any further proof of Individual action other then becoming members of this His. FOALER: "...or others found guilty--' organization, to mill then Into this particular type of treatment. for that In an expedient which no are cooption here to provide for the nast Induction of groups into this MR. HARD: I agree with you that you don't want to subject a whole organization to what & few individuals compulsory labor service. might do. New. If you want to add something to cover the persons (Hr. Downey reenters the conference.) who are guilty of substantial action in opposition to the purposes of the occupation it seems to me that you-wee MR. FOWLER: These individuals were ready to do that, ought to to tack to our principles of finding the individus cuilty of those actions. Everybody known what happens. carebody starts . club or organization, B merching and but in the future organization-- KOOKS that, and all of . sudden somebody proves that certain sembers of that organisation meeting together under that you are talking, in most cases you can discuss it. no. BARD: If the question of werewolves comes up when charter club or trade union or . literary society or God I 55 56 56 0 KIII. FORLER: 1 na just wondering. : think your wording EAT all right. in. (LAYTON: That is very broad. MR. FULLER: There are cases in the courts going back for years and years in this country for which all defenders of civil liberties and justice have opposed this type of 2651 condensation of individuals. X. FORLER: 1 EBE just wondering about the application of this vis military organizations in . concreto case. Suppose somebody wrecks t freich train. You 10 out and ant the feilous that put the dynamite onthethefellow track and that the and fellows that boucht the dynesite Now, EA are making # exception here in these particular cases because there is, of course, well-established proof regarding these groups. how, you open that up to the future, here tied in and to their action furnished . definite canepirooy a/minst the occupation. You don't necessarily.. and it works back. in. HALLD: ...BOOK the micle organization. VS. CLAYTION All right, but would this be retisfectory, ...OF other persons determined by appropriate process to be members of the underground or other organizations dedicated to the continuation of Mazim or German militarism? 1. FORLING ...EOCK the whole organization 11 it dight have other legitleste functions. ER. DuROIS: This has *...leading collshorstors, supporters of FR. FULLER: I have no objection to making It broader in . different my in. FOLLEN: L.M. Lubin saye the doesn't rent that socification, the emphasis or "leasing" to apply to this additional $ LR. BAND: will you restate was you said . minute ago? category. IN FORTH "...Or other persons determined by sp= propriete process to be newberr of the underground or other organizations dedicated to the continuation of Mazis or Gorman vilitarita. V.R. CLAYTEE: Let's see if this language that is to be added to persgraph 3 would cover it, ...OF other persons determined by appropriate process to be members of the underground or other organizations dedicated to the continue ation of Insism. Ko. LuPOIS: Wouldn't it be "engaged*? MR. LOYST?: the EAST to nit the military and not just the Name in there, too. Eil. FORLER: "...requiring substantial punishment." .... HARD: 1 think that is all right. 1.1. COF: Add "elliterists." R. DESPRES: That is not . separate thought. H.M.JR: I like r. Lovett's suggestion about bringing in the military. Lill. LOVETT: Sure is. La. LIMIN: Couldn't you may, ....others engaged or determined by appropriate authority to to engaged in Tould that take care of it? V.R. COE: Be use Harism and militarin in 1087. MR. CLASSES: Can we may, "...decleated to purposes hostile to the United Nations?" C 0 MR. CLAYTON: It seems to me this covers it, "or other persons determined by appropriate process to be members of the underground or other organizations dedicated to the continuation of Mazier or Germen militerism. 58 57 -5857 MR. LUBIN: Instead of using "organization," say to be engaged in activities. M. CLAYTON: "...to be engaged in activities dedicated to the continuation of Nazism or German militarism. Mrs. DOE: You don't dedicate. MR. LOVETT: Mr. Fowler, isn't there confusion between the type of actions which bring criminal pro- ceedings and subsequent jail sentence and the types of activities--this is broad, you have to envisage-which do not put the fellow in jail, but make him take a part in rebuliding the damage that the action that be is continuing to perpetuate brought about? MR. FORLER: Now, I think to answer that--yes, sir, in discussing this 4 b., the standard of living the LOBIN: "...in activities MR. DESPRES: . directed to--" Hi. CLAYTON: ...directed toward tie continuation -or all other persons determined by appropriate process to be engaged in activities directed toward the continuation of basism or German militarism. C Is that =greeable? C and conditions of employment, should conform to humane standards. There was some suggestion that we modify the humane standard in our original draft to read, according to that required of prison labor or convict labor, and the problems you are going to treat in this category are not even deserving of that type of treatment. I have no quarrel with that point, but this compulsory labor service, being a mild kind of that you might give a fellow for of temporate stealing a punishment loaf bread--this process is a pretty serious business. Hr. Cronley's point is, I think, that the punishment is to fit the crime. Mo. LOVETT: They are going to get pushed around, MR. FORLER: This language here, 1 think is broader and would be more preferable, or other persons determined by appropriate process to be guilty of action requiring substantial punishment." there is no question about that, but doesn't Ar. Clayton's language really cover the point that he are discussing here? Doesn't It essentially meet your objective? time LUBIN: Tast say have nothing to do with the fellow NOO is working to retain militarism in Germany. HR. CLAYTON: 1 would like to point out, just to support what Jr. Lovett has said, that in this $ we specifically include as people eligible for this consulsory labor service people who are guilty of 60 59 build up over 5 substantial period of time for the future a system of this sort which is repugnant to us? I don't believe that we would want to support that for the future. Let's tie it down to the past, to a retroaction. petty crimes in the ordinary criminal sense, and the persons who will be required for compulsory service will only be members of the Gestape and other organizations of that character, and lending collaborationists, supporters of, and participants in the Nazi party or administration so that the language which I have read MR. CLAYTOR I don't quite understand the logic of your argument, Joe, because, If I understand YOU. language is consistent with that, because It says, or other persons determined by appropriate process to be engaged In activities directed toward the continuation of correctly, you are for making eligible for requir ent of compulsory labor service outside of Germany a EAD who might steal a loaf of bread or a plow from a German. Nagism or German militarism. MR. FOLLER: I am not-- His. FOLLOR: Mr. Clayton, what this all boils down MR. CLAYTON: I have my serious doubts as to whether you should take that kind of petty criminal and make him eligible or subject to compulsory service outside of Germany. Now, the language, on the other hand, which I have read here is directed toward discouraging in every to is this, that in endorsing or going along with the C compulsory labor service principle the here in the United States have this particular type--we here in the United States are going along with the principle which has always beer repugnant to us. be are going along with it in a particular case because of the facts that have been pointed out. These groups have participated and promoted a crime society, may possible any person in rany,certainly for the the immediate future, from continuing activities onthis war and next the dind few years,which of brought and some amount of restoration of the damage that which If continued might bring on another one; that is the justification for the language such as I suggested. Now, in taking It out of the context of past action and fitting It to future action, we are giving life to a system which God only knows how It will MR. TO LER: Mr. Clayton, please make this clear. the are satisfied with the language as is because it deals with the groups that have been guilty of action in the past. be don't want to enlarge this concept to make this a catch-all kind of arrangement into which can be included they have caused through their own efforts is required. . of continue. It is system punishment for long action or crime that it seens to ne me ought to end with this war, and I don't know may as one of the thousands or hundreds of thousands of individuals who may in the future commit various kinds of acts. of the warbegin ze to open for the a continued future by-products Mr. CLAYTON: I BUD not suggesting any addition; the suggestion came from around the table that we broader it to Include these other categories. HOW, If the Allied Military Government wants to deal with this werewolf activity in such & way as to impose the most severe sentences, death, life imprisonment, or any of that type of severe penalty, there 1. certainly not much opposition induction of additional Individuals in this type of conduct. if there are werewolves, Let's take them out and shoot them. if there are people who perform nots of violence that are contrary to the interests of the occupation, let's punish then. but why do we to that here. most of the opposition is for giving birth here to & system of compulsory labor service that Is not only going : 62 61 ( 61 carry on the same type of activity which re are socking already in this? to apply to the groups that have been guilty of this kind MR. LUBIN: I sue Joe's point, but that is imaterial. : of action in the past, but also action in the future. It is not , healthy thing, and the sooner that to get back to the normal processes of punishment for crime In Germany, think the better off K.C will be. he wants to stop once and for all the use of compulsory labor, stop it at the point that includes those. Any net crimes of 8 similar type shall he treated socie other key. MR. DuROTS: Jee, 1 would like to ce) this or this shole question of concern about the reaction here. realize that events any change . few years from now, but : con't think TO can overlook the feet that in July, even 1 MR. FOLLER: It in just this, Mr. Bard, that this poison has started to take effect DCE, the Germans have sterted it. They have imported--I don't know what the before the report of strocities caue out, that seventy one percent of the people, according to the Callup Poll, favored having three or four million Geruans rebulld Bussia. That 12.2 a specific question noked of them, and I think, myself, that you greatly exagrerated the reaction of the American people or this. Now, we have already nerrored the thing.down, really, in . way, : Louid personally guess, fisures are, but eight, ten, or twelve million people. 2.k. CON: We are going along because there is a lot of damage to be repaired. I object to all the overtones about poin and the rest of it. In there something improper or wrong which is being dose here? that vasn't contemplated. It meant, is specifically spelled out--1 bet the hunsiene dian't think of interas of there limitations. The question is, how for are you golag to go FORLER: In this draft there is nothing. in COE: There are people two have been pillaged and have bag to run like Indians, and not you are talking about MR. FORLER: You are raising the question now of three or four million Germane going to custic and building things. If you sent to talk about a voluntary labor system, a voluntary recruitment whereby the Government pays-- getting some language that covers sose of them to GO some reconstruction, and I would like to say that I think this it very mild. You are morried about crimes here and punishsent for crimes. hell, this sort of thing of working somewhere else to rebuild something I consider not unhealthy, but MR. Du BOIS: This 200 asked in . capulaory way whether three or four million Germans should be required to rebuild healthy. cities in nussis. That certainly is not voluntary. 10. BARD: Probably in the aussian zone of occupation they would use this additional opportunity to take all AIR. FORIF Tell, for my ord purpose-- kinds of people. KIL BARD: You agreed that everybody in 3 now, all these people should be under this category? kh. COM: The French were in the other day seeing us, and they estimate there are seven million man years of work to be done in France Just picking up, cleaning up, and clearing up, and that not. and they in other countries are in every 13. FORLER: Right. - Blade by not my you 0 gree that these activities day asking what financial facilities we have for restoration, how to are roing to net out. How, I don't think we have a strong position in trying to nerrow the Amount of work that scale of these countries might-- should be stopped? KR. FORLER: dight. C KR. BAKD They not may, .including other persons who any continue the came type of activities se listed above 0 13. FORM In the proposal The made yesterday we had L provision which has been caitted here for which 6 has been 63 C 63 : substituted therefore which provided for E--which contemplated en intensive use of voluntary Cerman labor to be paid by the German Government. The expense of that Labor in to be born by the Termst people, but couched with certain and participants in the Real party or edministration. That will take in . prest any people, and I hope be CED agree diement. upon it DE dream in orear to sprive at come decision without conditions that could clearly differentiate It from the type of compulsory intor service be are here setting up for this special TOUT. : == perfectly tilling to other up If rest decl of rebuildin needs to be done in France and Gerusr labor is in. MAD: That in without changing 3. require for It and it is . desirable econowic and social taint to be done. Lot's c to the business of setting MI and providing for 5 volunter, labor service which will make III. CLAYTON: Leave 3 At T read it. in have changed 31 little in the second line. In that sgreeable? Mr. BARD: That is ell right. It attractive and will make it possible are take !t fessible to accomplich the objective you are speaking of that the French decire in such . my that It doesn't violete the principles that Crosley 11: stating the other any No. CLAYTON: Be pass that question. regarding complement labor service. C 64 how, how about 47 VR. CLAYTOL: I think it in highly desirable. I am sure you pill all agree 11 is highly desirable that ke CAD agree upon 5 docusent here mail will meet LP. Crowley'r view and on which be can net without any missent. 1 believe that the Language mice TO have here nov sould cover all present or part offenders in Geranny and that the 2 name which his been proposed as in addition sould merely bring in future offenders. And in all probability the language which we have is sufficiently broad to hring in . very Terge number of persons, because it says, ...or lending collaboration 1sts or surporters of or participents In the Teal party or, end to forth. And an we need to have here.sa records the suggertion that the Impresse be broadened or 60 addition be 0 FR. LUBIN: : don't like the wording following. "The following conditions should be accepted by all parties. certiesyou to spree to that. What are saying is that me should attempt to get all RR. CLAVSON That is the my it should read. (Secretary leaves the conference temporarily.) KR. CLAYTON: This is, so 1sr it relates to the Consission's request for an attempt to get Egressent on certain principles RE stated, made much 52 no have discussed, any reconcilable difference, surrent to recommend to the consittee that to adopt the is DERIN: Agreement should be sought. language just BE we have it. It would then read, "2. This government is strongly of the view that Terms other then MR. CLAYTION: That is better. toose specified in 3 below of deserving on sunsement should not called upon to merfore congularory labor service out= side be Germany. EN. LIMIN: Agreement should be sought. "3. Compulsory labor service should be required only from THE criminals and individuals refinitely deterained service. Life. CLAYTON: "...MI to recerd to compulsory labor by appropriate process to be members of the Gestopo, the SS, VA. Lithing ....along the following lines." leaders of the SA, or leading colleboratore, supporters of, C 0 HARD: I would wordVR. "individually" R. like to suggest leaving out the 65 05 66 - 66 MR. CLAYTON: "Except for persons individually tried specific crimes-- 1 don't see what 'individually" adds for to it. Let's strike it out. Except for persons individually tried for specific crimes, and convicted and sentenced to lifetime punishment, the period of compulsory labor service should be limited to a definitespen of years. 15th INPIN: that has the original clause in the droft? 19. FOLLES: This has to do with voluntary labor. "b. The standard of living and conditions of VR. LUHIN: No, with regard to reporting. employment should conform to humane standards. HARD: Vr. Pauley suggested yesterday his idea "o. Countries using compulsory labor should report periodically to the Reparation Commission or Agency on the living and working conditions of such workers and the uses made of their services. moul in audit to have sort of : it.consittee of the Reperstions Commission VR. PAULEY Some international committee or the Repertions Commission. Is there any comment? Kh. LUMIN: Does the original draft have . statement of socie international organization? MR. D.S. BELL: 1 think the words, "...of such workers" was left out. C MR. CLAYTON: "...of living and working conditions of such workers. 0 VR. CLAYTON: I think, Vr. Pauley, that you had 6 very good suggestion there and that you might be able to get agreement that the Reportions Commission, itself, do this work good deal ensier than if you tried to could get agrement . kind that rolle outside organization do it. It is think, of obligation of the Reportions Commission, I would really because the Reportions Commission, If they should sould agree be to this or something of similar importance, 13. LOVEYT: That is the same point Mr. McCley wanted raise that ac discussed last time, that we are not-that is really an adequate discharge of any interest or moral obligation we DAY have, so we would not have to reply on the U. S. representative sending in reports saying, Everything O.K., but having International Red Cross check to it. they laying cown 5 certain condi tion which I would think MR. CLAYTON: I think-- to would DAVE the right to check up on every FOR and then 200 whether-- MR. LOVEIT: I think Mr. McCloy still feels, and I share his views in it, that if we can not an independent audit by the International Red Cross, we would be better MR. LUBIN: "The Reparations Commission should the right to survey living EGG working conditions of reserve pulsory bethat all workers right? and uses made of their services. Sould com- off. At least that would be relieving our our responsibility to this country. it MR. CLAYTON: I agree with you. I think we should have If we can get It. The question, then, is whether we because AR if CLAYTON: you don't, I think that-- you better state it effinatively should ask the American representative on the Commission to strive to get that agreement. that is your view on that, C Mr. +suley? VR. FORLER: But that had to do with the voluntary labor group. $ dates. VIA. PAULEY: lake certain observations on pecific 67 67 0 NR. LUPIN: "...to periodically survey the living and 68 NR. LUBIN: If you are going to make the survey, working conditions of compulsory workers and uses made of their services. the individuals will make the reports to their individual governments. Take that for granted. 18. CLAYTIN: T think 20. If you con't GO that-of MR. DESPRESS "The Commission should periodically make--" you use the other language when you try to get it Gone, you night not be able to. FR. LUPIN: Yes. MR. DISPRESS How about adding to this language, ....and MR. CLAYTON: "The Reparations Commission or agency shall there should be Inspection by on appropriate Allied gency" periodically survey the living and working conditions of compulsory workers and the usage made of their services, and so forth. Is that agreesble? KR. LOVETT: You are better off going to that you want first than settling on this lesser thing If you have to. MR. DuBOTS: That in substitution for C. Kr. CLAYTON You mean try to get the Red Cross-- ER. LOVETT: In place of 0. MR. LOVEST: Try to get either the International Red Cross or the agency or Reparation Commission RT an audit agency If you can. If you can't, you can always take the lesser course. 2.1. COF: Go back to C. if you can't et this. 0 MR. CLAYSTEN: in spreed-- VR. LOVEST If you follow Kr. Despress line, you take the lesser. MR DESPRESS Should we put in the other alternative? MR. COE: I don't think so. MR. LOVEST: Then you say the uses nade of their services, does the Reparation: Commission contemplate en- desworing to define that appropriate ure is to be nade of LR. CLAYTON: That is right. this reconstruction? compulsory labor, in other words, to the restoration and NO.toLOVEST: seemed cover it. Doctor Lubin had some langua there that 15. LUBIN: That question WALL raised yesterday, and no decision was made on it, but if they here being used In milt mines or to develop resources test he don t feel are very essential to the welfare of the world et the given moment, that fact cught to be made public. VR. LUBIN: "The Reportions Commission shall periodically survey-- MR. COE: ...living and working conditions of compulsory workers, and the UEDE made of their services. MR. PAULEY: And what about the use of production-that MR. CLAYTON: That does it. might enter into the use of labor, manufactural production that eight encure In world trade in competition with ours? MR. LOVETT: Survey and report to them. VR.conditions-CLAYTION: ...SUPVEY and report on the living and working - 66 - 0 JR. LOVES: Suppose they put them into labor of building farm Exchinery, and no forth, and paid them nothing and then sold their goods on that basis to the outside world? 70 69 - 69 - C 70 NR. HARD: Could you limit It to interie crestruction and things not to be exported from their country policy question in the recurring reparations program. 12. CLASSER The thought of the committee - that se would limit 11 to reportions of the damage. or something like that, Emile, in the first paragraph? ER. DOE: : wonder whether ce den't need up above rone- where near : and 2 something which #### cc believe that this labor should be used for reconstruction and repair of REF domene. would compete in the world trade market? MR. LOVETT: they don't you include-- YR. Bristic think to. MR. LUBIN: I would put in a new 2. in 11. LOUNTY to not in production of OOGE for intere national sale. NR. DuROIS: Suppose you entec to rebulle. there. MR. MAULEY: I mould like to tee it specifically in NR. Du3015: Suppose there 1. . !ectory partly danaged and you rent town JTR. PAULEY: Rebuild, but not operate. MR. CLAYTON All right, to reconstruct and repair, but not to operate. You would 2021 ...to be used only for instructing and repairing are dansite not for openiting labor. : would think that could cover it. n. HLASSER: You ml ght point out that YOU have the MR. LUBIN: I would put it in number 2. MR. LUBIN: The first general principle is, we son't take any reparations in the form of labor; two, we favor the use of peparations labor only in this kind of work. ER. PAULEY: Don't pell ment to add , sterific clause that they rhoul be allowed to manufacture FOODS that NO. TO: lr. Fauley, sould " that be outered KR. DESPRES: 1 think It might go in the last one, because I assume that--does it apply just to compulsory, or voluntary also? MR. CLAYTON: Both types of service. 17. LUBIN: That should be in number 2. 11 you soin that concultory libber should he PAID only reconstruction and recairing of ast dema and not In operating productive Pacilities: 1.R. CLAYTON Right. Could you get that language, same problem with recurring reparations, for instance, coal, If the country note It free, uses it as part of productive process for exports. You really DATE the saze commercial MR. CLAYTON: will you out that in, Emile? Now, we come to 5, "Apart from persons deserving of punishment as defined above, German labor for peparation should be recruited only on a voluntary basis for work outside Germany." MR. POWLER: Mr. Clayton, 1 have no suggested change, just a comment that yesterday in the discussions I think it was generally agreed that there was a good deal of room there for the constructive development of a proposal that would make mich more feasible the use of this voluntary what would recruitment of labor achieve for make peparations. we toattempt try and there is to theReally, German people as a whole pay for the cost of rebuilding and repairing and rehabilitating war damage in other countries, and that is, the job of creating a workable and fessible system that would result in n substantial use of the socalled voluntary labor is a responsibility that falls somewhere between the Allied Control Council and the Reparations Commission. that in going to require a good deal of effort 71 C -72- 0 and constructive study on the part of both. For example, it may be quite possible to require the German Government to pay mager to workers who would volunteer to 0 and work outside of Germany to create certain inducements there which would result in the work being done and the German people as a mhole paying for it, and at the came time, not Involve the undesirable consequences of the use of compulsory Inbor in the dimensions and qualities that sometimes are referred program along those lines which I think might be developed, and I just wanted to throw that out to throw come light on the proposition, that I don't think this elort paper by any means exhausts the possibilities of labor reperations here 8 the voluntary type, and that sometime later on, either here or in the Allied Control Council, or in conjunction with the work of the Reparations Commission, 8 program of that sort could be developed which mould have . chance of working and accomplishing the desirable economic objectives that kr. Coe her referred to. C on our part we would be Ind to forward that work in any may BC could. we attempted to spell out B little bit of it yesterday, but screed that in view of the shortage of time 20 wouldn't include it. VA. LUBIN: There is another point of view. I think be mould all agree that in the Allied Control Council, EAC, or United listions they will went to work out A cheme of labor the rehabilitate part That moran. doesn't concern the Reparations Commission. All he want to be sure of, 11 ou do use such a system, it that the accounts are kept #O that the Germans are credited and the receiving country in debited. The Reperations Commission is interested in reparations as such, and If you are going to use compulsory isbor ** form of reparations, be want voluntary to any of to fix the terms under which it will operate, but 11 the French Government wanted to make a des with Eisenhower whereby they will undertake to use a million German at two doilers 6 day and Eigenhomer says that is swell and be publishes notice in the paper, any body who wants to go to work in France at two dollars . day would be permitted to leave the country. Our concern in reportions, that the two dollars . any is credited to the Germans and debited to France. VR. COE: 1 spee you shouldn't no too for into that this time because of the foreirs exchange problem, because for the Germans to raise two dollars . day in franc exchange presents lot of problems. at a to, and me didn't attempt in this paper to fully develop 72 VR. CLAYTON: I shouldn't think you would have to raise it in franc exchange, but : 40 think that the Reparations Commission would be interested in this matter. of reasons.LUBIN: lie would like to see it done for a number DR. CLAYTON: It night be a very fruitful sort of reportions, but don't think the could attempt at all to-MR. LOVETT: You can't write 6 program. MR. FORLER: That *** the conclusion we cane to, but I think you have to keep that in mind. M.M. CLAYTON: Now 6--this is a proposal to be included in fl new peragraph 2 to cover the point ke just previously discussed, "Foth compulsory and voluntery labor services, furnished as reparation should be used only for reconstruction and repair for damage, not for current production operations. Non me 6° to 6, "Payment for wages and maintenance for both compulsory and voluntary labor utilized for reparation mill be borne by Germany. the value of the services of both types of labor shall be included as reperation." I thought that was you started labor, either voluntary or compulsory, that the country where they worked maintained them. The payment--the remuneration should, of course, be made by Cermany, presumably, to the families of these people in BAFKE- IN German currency--bu If you require Germany to caintain them, that means a considerable export item on the part of Germany for maintenance. MO MICROFM ROLL NO 74 73 ( 73 O 20% so the net that is credited to Germany it one dollar and half out of three. 101 LUBIN: You may find your maintenance cost in equal to what you paid Las... 111. CLAYTOE Hut why not just let them credit It rather than make & double entry? : mean, it is the some MN. CLAYTON: tell, no, payment at home would be in thing. local currency to the families, presumably, or to the credit of the leborer. Seistenance means, of course, his food and housing and clothing. 1 would think it would be MR. LUMIN: The want to net . sey of showing that the actual burden is going to to borne by the Germans. pelo for. HR. DESPRESS for about caitting perferech 6 and chang- MR. LUHIN: Haybe we ought to go back to the original words no used, "The value of such labor and its cointenance shall be borne by Germany. In other words, what you are trying to any is that Germany should pay this bill. inc 7 to, "The not value of servicer of both types of labor soulc he included in repertione? FR. That is right. MR. PAULIY: In other words, Germany is going to cet money to pay the bill. VR. Lister: No. I think it is such better the other very. The important thing is that the Certificate are roing to be responsible for the maintenance. The rest is bookkeeping. UR. BARD: If be is sent out of the country, the families have got to live some may. to like the military elletment system they pay internally with local currency and you FR. 10 ED: Do you think the German: thould take care of the maintenance? I don't think they should. have no : orelen exchange protlem. 15% CLAYTON: I don't, either. VR. LUBINE The other becomes . probies in Certainy in the sense that the in debited. Her reparations account FR. BARD: If they are getting labor for nothing, the least they can do is to house them and take cere of then roez up in the #mount the American DATE to toy these people In wages. properly. bigger.MR. CLAYMON That Just nears the reperstions bill gets 1h. CLAY OF: That in right. I think the point is thit, that if you agree on 8 value of . nen's services under those circumstances and say, 8.5 Lubic said, that it it three dollars . day. you wouldn't credit Germany with three dollars 6 day if the country there the can is working bad to speno one dollar and a half of that three to maintain him. That you would credit Germany with would be one dollar VR.is DESPESS: That all It =It seens double entry that cancels out. MR. LOVETT: Or it they export more reporations-- end one-half. I think that is pretty clear. MR. LUMIN: The Austin get two dollers worth of labor, and they are debited for that, and the German EPC credited. NO. BARD: That in the idee, but make the country where they are working take enro of them. Otherwise they are liable to starve to death and #BT the German's aren't taking MR. LURIN: Germany is credited with that the dollars, and here is what happens: A man tire dellars B day: t that Is what we are charging the Germane, you thy. It costs one delist and . half to feed them. Consequently the Rucsiens are only getting one doller and . half out of that care of them. It is our responsibility. I 75 - C 75 11. LOVETT: Isn't what they are actually telkin about to out It in bookkeeping form? If Humals has a credit of ten dollars in reportions, the any take five dollars in plants, three dollers in FOODS, and have 5 two dollar balance left against which the can use compulsory labor. Int' t that what - are telking about? ER. BAILD: If the Reportions Commission decides that the man's services are morth three dollars & any, then Germany only gate . credit of one dollar and one-half End Russis gets one dollar and one-helf to feed them. Mr. LOVETT: The more labor the uses, the less plant dollar value she can take out. That is what the aesnt, isn't it? NR. CLAYTON Not here, I son't think, Bob. what Le are trying to any here-wrot the did any here in that payment for hages and serintenance for both compulsory and voluntary C labor utilized for reparations shall be borne by Geruany. That is what we my, but I don't think that in what we mean. 76 76 of the value of the work mould presumably be up to the recipient Government. They rould also have too ospute the amount of maintenance, and there any be very little net value whice could be a disturbing factor. MIL CLAYTON: They wouldn't get any credit. 13. BARD: The Reparations Committee would decide on what they should pay these people. KS. CLAYTON: You see, herold, it mouldn't be likely that there won't be . net value, because certainly 1 man's services could be north something more than just to feed, clothe, and house him under those conditions. Vake it north more. And the net value would have to be paid by the Germans and would be it credit to them or reparations, and . debit to the country receiving services, and it doem make very much difference whether you do it that way or credit Germany with three dollars, say for that then's services and charge Na with one dollar and b. half for him mintenance. It is KR. LOVEST: You seen the net value of the labor shall be charged against her in the reperations account. MR. CLAYTON: Charced to the country receiving the labor, the not. NH. CLASSER: I Just most to point out Lr. Fard's point with reference to mires and caintenance. This provision style, Payment for anges and unintenance." don't think that obsolves the recipient country from maintaining these workers and giving them food and chelter. This merely rays, and saintenance would be borne by I Germany. just . little more bookkeeping. 101 PARO: One thing I on worried about is there the poor fellow is going to et the spending money for cigarettes, and so forth. Le has vot to have something in his own pocket. NO PAULEY? They give the German priscners here--what In It, fifteen cents . say? MR. Eighty cents. (Secretary re-enters the conference.) KR. DESPARS: The whole offer has to be attractive VR. LUBIN: "The net value of the services of both types of labor shall be included BE reperations and be borne by Genery Wouldn't that cover 1t? VR. GLASSER: The not value, I suppose, iess any amount O 0 the French or numbiano are being paid. You run into the situation where there may not be . net value. The computation enough to cake him sign up. MR. HARD: Would Germany have to send pocket money to Russis or advance then twenty-five cente . day? That will all came out. MR. CLAYTION: 1 think ze will have to leave that. MR. LUMIN: Does that mean TO omit six? Y 78 77 - 78 O C MR. CLAYTON: That is an excellent suggestion. How about inviting the Justice to meet with us next time? Do you wish to do so? 11. CLAYTON: Unit 6. Then 7 rends, "The net value of services of both types of labor shall be included 88 reperations. H.M.Jh: Let his read it in advance. MR. LOVETT: And borne by Germany. MR. CLAYTON: And let him reed It in Rovence. would that be your idea, Bob? MR. DUBOIS: I don't think you need that. that. the LOVEST be count to protect cur Consission roing over under one get of instructions, theress the Her Crimes Count "toe have 0 wholly different approach. I don't know whether they have even considered it or not. MR. LUBIN: When you any for reparations, it means MR. CLAYTON: It means Germany, of course. VR. CLAYTOI: In it agreeable to the Count ttee tast 5 of this redrefted document he submitted to Justice We have completed it, Jr. Secretary: we are finished. copy Jackson with the explanation that before finally adopting Non, 1 would suppest that it be rempitter and they TO it ke thought in view of his recent appointment he should have . look at it. would take another look at it, but I think it is important... I that these documents are to important tist we should have them both redrafted and then we could elt down here and so over then one more time. MR. LUMIN: Hig interest would be In the labor clause only, wouldn't it? 0 MR. DUBOIS: Can't you just stick it into the other S. LURIN: That is all me would have to tend ain. Send it to hin and ask if he has may comment, document? 100. CLAYMIN: If ke are all In agreement on it, any-KA. FORLES: I think it would be better. that. and then he CED send it back. LY HAND: Samebody could take It to him and explain it. It al ht ESTE trouble. MR. CLAYTON: If there is no objection, in will do H.N.JH: 1 Londer If Mr. Pauley vould be willing. MR. DuBOIS: I suggest you make it paragraph 4. It would make it much easier. It is an important paragraph MR. PATIENTY I would be very glad to present It to him, sir. and should follow paragraph 3 of our main document. LR. CLAYTON: That would he fine 11 you mouls do it, Pauley, and It has been surgested that be only subait LT. to his the part relating to the labor. Do you agree on that? MR. DESPRES: All right. MR. CLAYTON: Shall we take up the Joint Chief of Staff communication? 13. PAULEY: Yes, : think that is all he is concerned with, though I don't think there in any objection to showing his the entire document If he rents to see it. MR. LOVETT: Before you leave that, Hill, with the appointment of Justice Jackson perhaps we ought to have C some way of tying in with him on these war crimes and what not, to make sure that we are not taking a wholly different track from what the country is giving Mr. Pauley's Commission instructions on -- 0 79 O 79 80 ( CLAYTON: I wouldn't have any. Then when the rent to rend it to JCS. MR. CLAYTON You said at the tatle time you would MR. has redrafted the document they will furnish Secretary a copy of it: and If you will call on Justice Jackson you and discuss it with him, that would be fine. DEN. agreement. HILLDRING: That is something I von't say. We will try to do that If the can net the working counittee H.M.JR: Couldn't we clean this up tomorrow morning? MR. CLAYTON: well -- MR. CLAYSION: That mould be the desirable thing to do. MR. FOWLER: Wouldn't it be possible to iron out informally this point about the Joint Chiefs clause so business? that at our next meeting we can clean up all of the current 13. LOVEST: You have one difficulty there in the sonse our Staff. that Joint FridnyChiefs 18 theofCombined Chiefs of Staff meeting, and D. They work on sent peperr informally, MR. CLAYTON: Yes, that is right, Joe. 1 think that and and : think If we had on agreement In the working comuittee It informally right. "+C will get to that in Just a minute. I would everybody *** agreed scross the hoerd, no could clear is think possibly we better do it Saturday morning, AT. Secretary. H.M.JR: I won't be here. C MR. CLAYTON: Perhaps this afternoon. MR. CLAYTON: Could we do It tomorrow afternoon? GEN. hillbridge 1 mould try. H.M.JR: Tomorrow will be Cabinet, supposedly. NR. CLAYTON: Suppose we meet in the morningt morning at o'clock? nine o'clock. time, nine Is that greeable? le will meet What tomorrow MR. LOVETT: I can't do it tomorrow afternoon. H.M.JR: Could you GO it tomorrow morning? In the meantime, the working committee will et touch with you, General Hilldring on this matter in MR. LOVETT: I think I am all right tomorrow morning, but I by don't know whether we could get the Joint Chiefs of Staff then. try this communication to the Joint Chiefs of Staff. here of this to agree upon the langun and try to submit it They to will proposal. a efternoon or tonight and code in tomorrow morning with then H.M.JR Well, General Hilldring and 1 had a little conference in the corner, and he said he thought that if this working committee met with the representatives of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, they could work it out this afternoon. GEN hilldrings That is enfully fost setion for five- star generals and admirals, but I will do ay immedent. my Are 11. LOVEST that remains to he done for touorron? GEN. HILLDRING: I thought we could get this working with T.e this? going to go back over the whole thing, or only deal committee and somebody from JCS and they could produce one. the That would have to be sent to this committee and JCS at same time but if they will agree--and I think they can get an agreement--that is the end of it. C 0 do 23. it. CLAYTON: Let's cover this now, how we are to to meet I don't suppose be ment the whole working going this efternoon on the communication of the Joint group 81 82 -81- C KR. CLAYTON: : don't know of anything else that remains to be done on it. My only point is that numerol changes are going to be ande in it. It is going to be Chiefo of Staff. What WES your iden on that, General? DI. HILLDRING: If be could not the working port of this cornittee can settle it. and the working part of the JCS, I think TIP drafted, and T think that it in very important that all us eit here tomorrow morning and read it over again righ from the beginning to the end and say whether we agree 9 not. Do you agree with that's MR. DESPATE: I believe that to for 5.5 this compittee is concerned TO all know what the civilian spencies would agree to. VR. LOVEY?! Sure. I.E.JR: I think you kouldn't have had this trouble with the Joint Chiefi of Staff If ke had had . chance t re-read it. I think It is very important to telk about MR. ADLER: I wonder if 1 moole committee is needed this afternoon, or if it mouldn't be edequate to have one representative. the future of Germany. FR. FOLLER: I would suggest that 6.5 for K2 BE are concerned, ir. Despres, or any other party designated would be satisfactory as for is be are concerned. C MR. CLAYTON: The have all agreed, haven't ve, or it so for as the civilian agencies are concerned on this cannittee an to what the Issuage should be? MR. FORLER: Te haven't discussed the specific language butthe I think the all agree 0.5 to the point that is to be changed in existing draft. H.H.JR: present. I could like to have fl Treasury representative HR. CATION: I think we ought to have one representative from each agency, just have the full working roup meet with General after lunch. Hilldring this afternoon or soon 31 possible Now, Bob, you asked the question BE to whether at our meeting tomorrow we were going to consider merely this suggested change in the document that we approved last Friday or If We would go over the reperations question again. MR. LOVETT: Yes, I *** wondering whether .. had disposed of the reparations paper there *** something else that remained to be doneoronwhether it. 10 CLAYTION: to will meet tonorrow morning at nin o'clock. 0 CERTIFICATE OF AUTHENTICITY OPERATOR Schwant5 ROLL NO 0 125 TIME START 5 DATE: 1/20/49 TIME FINISH DEPT. SPECIAL FEATURE OF COPY / cale B Dear can't from roll # 4. from to 344 end Diary Book # 8390m 20-24 1945 1945 Dury . " #841 april apr. 25 1945 843 2 # 3-5 1945 # 842 1842 - . Cant in # 4 fg = from # 8+4 than Basi Infer ither tipg(d)? May 6 (Photostat copie poor fording 1 hundry certify - follows 1. I an . minda operator employed be MICROFILM CORPORATION 1 I made accurate and employ reconductions of the records as submitted by microlining - the date or dates above mentioned (Company Name and Address) $ The listed above is the roll number and the records which it contains . 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