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DIARY

Book 506

March 9 and 10, 1942

-AAbbott (Bud) and Costello (Lou)
Purchase of bomber by earmarking salaries earned on
tour of Nation's theatres discussed in White House-Treasury correspondence - 3/10/42
Alien Property Custodian
Executive Order setting up office discussed by Smith

Book

Page

506

264

221

and Bill; Crowley to be head - 3/10/42

(See also Book 507, page 51)
a) Conversation with FDR discussed by Treasury

224

group

b) Amendment to Executive Order covering Frozen
Funds - HMJr memorandum to Foley - 3/12/42:
Book 507, page 170

c) Press release: Book 507, page 171

-BBritish Empire
See Lend-Lease

British Purchasing Mission
Vesting order sales - 3/9-10/42

134-137,
309,310

Federal Reserve Bank of New York statement showing
dollar disbursements, week ending February 25, 1942 -

311

.

3/10/42
Business Conditions
Haas memorandum on situation, week ending March 7. 1942.

113

-

Congress of Industrial Organizations
See Financing, Government: Defense Savings Bonds

-DDefense Savings Bonds
See Financing, Government

-EExchange Market

147,348

Resume's - 3/9-10/42
FFederal Reserve System
See Financing, Government

- F - (Continued)

Book

Page

Financing, Government

Excess earning power discussed by Treasury group;

present: HMJr, Stewart, Viner, Buffington, Sullivan,
Bell, Haas, Murphy, and Lindow - 3/9/42

506

a) Charts

b) Eccles-Bell conversation reported
c) Eccles-HMJr conversation

d) Excess reserves - alternative bases for
agreement

49,179
77

179
200
210

Federal Reserve Bank presidents endorse Board of

Governors plans for financing war effort through

special types of securities, etc. - 3/10/42.

260

a) Burgess-HMJr conversation - 3/12/42:
See Book 507, page 124

Federal Reserve--Treasury conference on "proposed basis

of agreement on financing policy" - 3/12/42:
Book 507, page 146
a) Memorandum: Book 507, page 166

Purchasers of Tax Certificates - classification by
type - 3/10/42

298

Defense Savings Bonde:

Congress of Industrial Organizations participation HMJr-Murray correspondence - 3/9/42

Jolson, Al: Duffus asked as to ability as song leader 3/10/42

Forand, Aime J. (Congressman, Rhode Island): Defense
Savings Stamp - purchase and cancellation: Suggestion
covered in Treasury--White House correspondence 3/10/42

Federal Reserve Bank representatives to discuss
mechanics of campaign with Treasury representatives 3/10/42

College presidents informed of Treasury plan - 3/10/42.
Outstanding volunteer workers: Presentation of
certificate discussed - 3/10/42.
Daily changes in stock of Series E Bonde - 3/10/42

99

160

270

276
279

288

295

Forand, Aime J. (Congressman, Rhode Island)
See Financing, Government: Defense Savings Bonds

Foreign Funds Control

Matthiessen and Hegeler Zinc Company - LaSalle, Illinois:
Secretary of War given information on possible
pro-Nazi tendencies - 3/10/42

252

-JJolson, Al
See Financing, Government: Defense Savings Bonds

-KKrock, Arthur
Vichy connections discussed in PM - 3/9/42

91

-L-

Book

Page

506

300

Lend-Lease

U.S.S.R.: Ships loading at Philadelphia - Gaston
report - 3/10/42
(See also Book 507, pages 21 and 325)

Vessels in American ports loading materials for
United Kingdom and British Empire excluding United
Kingdom - 3/10/42

Payment in cash or in kind for materials diverted from
British dollar contracts discussed in Lend-Lease-Treasury correspondence - 3/10/42

301,303

305

Liberia

Currency discussed in State-Treasury correspondence 3/10/42

326

(See also Book 507, page 385 - 3/14/42)
-M-

Matthiessen and Hegeler Zinc Company - LaSalle, Illinois
See Foreign Funds Control

Military Reports

British operations reports - 3/9-10/42
Coordinator of Information reports:

148,349

France - 3/9/42

150

British Home Intelligence report - 3/10/42

350

German Home Propaganda - 3/9/42

Kamarck summary - 3/9/42

Morgenthau, Henry, III
HMJr discusses enlistment with Patterson (Under
Secretary of War) - 3/9/42
(See also Book 507, page 1)
a) Patterson memorandum

152
155

36

41

b) Additional information: Book 507, page 185
-R-

Revenue Revision
See Financing, Government

Federal, State, and local tax burden (estimated average)
on single person with $750 income and married couple
with $1500 income - 3/9/42
a) Discussion with Henderson
Vandenberg, Arthur H. (Senator, Michigan): To be

provided with sales tax information - 3/10/42

85
89

257

-Shipping
See Lend-Lease

Silver

Legislation authorizing cessation of purchases and

permitting Treasury to sell at not less than 35t an
ounce - White memorandum - 3/9/42

a) Copy of bill

27
31

- TBook

Page

Taylor, Wayne Chatfield

Present with Krock (Arthur) at Vichy dinner PM article - 3/9/42
-U-

U.S.S.R.
See Lend-Lease

United Kingdom
See Lend-Lease

-Vandenberg, Arthur H. (Senator, Michigan)
See Revenue Revision

506

91

1

March 9, 1942
9:30 a.m.

GROUP MEETING

Present: Mr. Gaston
Mr. Paul

Mr. Buffington
Mr. Graves

Mr. Bell
Mr. Charles Bell
Mr. Kuhn

Mr. Viner
Mr. Blough
Mr. Kuhn

Mr. Foley
Mr. White
Mr. Stewart
Mr. Haas

Mrs. Klotz

H.M.JR: I thought we might have a class reunion.
MRS. KLOTZ: Where is everybody?

MR. BELL: It has been a long time.

H.M.JR: Yes. I guess they didn't expect one.
Mr. Gaston?

MR. GASTON: The matter George spoke to me about on

Saturday, we are getting out some instructions to Collectors

on those statistics. It is mainly a matter of Philadelphia the Philadelphia man was down here during the week on that

very topic. The matter is a delay on Lend-Lease cargos,

and we are going to have somebody from New York and probably

2

-2from Boston come in also to get--

(Mr. Sullivan entered the conference.)
H.M.JR: When can I begin to get those?
MR. GASTON: You will begin to get those within

the next day or two. The order is going out today.
H.M.JR: I would like very much to have them - could
I have something tomorrow from Philadelphia?

MR. GASTON: I think so. Tickton is going to

Philadelphia today. The man was down from Philadelphia
last week reporting. The Army had made a complaint and,

according to his report, the main difficulty in Phila-

delphia--

(Mr. Haas entered the conference.)

H.M.JR: Tell them what it is.
MR. GASTON: Well, it is a question in the delay
in loading the - dispatching the Lend-Lease cargos, and
our Assistant Collector in Philadelphia reported last week

after the Army had complained to us - he came down here

and reported that the main difficulty in Philadelphia

has been a row between McCormack and the Pennsylvania
Railroad.

(Mr. Foley entered the conference.)
H.M. JR: Would you make a note and tell Philadelphia
I want my first report tomorrow morning.
MR. GASTON: Yes, I will get a report tomorrow

morning.

H.M.JR: Now, what I want is, I want the percentage
of how much is loaded, and when the ships first arrive.
MR. GASTON: That is all in the memorandum that I
gave you.

3

-3But the first thing tomorrow morning, I
want H.M.JR:
it.
(Mr. White entered the conference.)
MR. GASTON: That will be very easy because he has

already been down here talking about that situation.
H.M.JR: What are the ones?

MR. GASTON: A petroleum car is going out of Port
Arthur. There is some occasional stuff from New York,
and there may be some from Boston. There is a little

going from the West Coast, too. There is stuff going

from Seattle and some oil cargos going from Southern
California.

H.M.JR: But in Philadelphia, there were supposed to

be seven vessels.

MR. GASTON: The bulk of the miscellaneous cargo,

machinery and all that stuff, is going from Philadelphia.
H.M.JR: And I will have that, and George, you will

whip that into shape so I can have something by noon
tomorrow?

MR. HAAS: Yes, sir.
MR. GASTON: We will get your report from Philadelphia

today. We are going to handle this thing over the ticker.
I think that is reasonably safe. Of course this data is

all dynamite as far as open telegraph is concerned.
H.M.JR: You can't break teletype.

MR. GASTON: No. We have got a machine right across

from my office there. Harney is 271.
H.M.JR: Who is Harney?

MR. GASTON: He is assistant to Elmer on coordination.

4

-4H.M.JR: You have your own man?

MR. GASTON: Right across the hall from me.
H.M.JR: Do you have your own number?
MR. GASTON: Yes.

H.M.JR: What is your number?
MR. GASTON: I don't know the number of that

machine. He and Peabody are in that office. Peabody is
an Intelligence man, and they handle that machine.
H.M.JR: Is that separate from ours?
MR. CHARLES BELL: Yes, sir.

H.M.JR: I think ours upstairs is 288, isn't it

Charles?

MR. CHARLES BELL: Yes, sir.

MR. GASTON: This machine was put in particularly

for the Coordinator on this guard business.

H.M.JR: Mine is 288, I think. That is all right

to have it on the teletype?

MR. GASTON: Yes. There is a new Executive Order

on harbor security placing it exclusively - giving the

Secretary of the Navy new authority, and he has turned
that all over to Coast Guard.

H.M.JR: Herbert, who delegated the fifteen or

twenty men that were assigned to be investigators in
Aniline and Dye? Who assigned those men? Who says which
men should do what? I mean, they have got, I don't know,
fifteen or twenty men up there.
MR. FOLEY: About twenty.

MR. GASTON: The men that are doing the investigation?

5

-5Well, those men were originally in the group - nearly
all of them were originally in the group assigned for

guarding by Maloney who is the Coordinator in New York

and different ones that they considered good investigators.
It is an arrangement between-H.M.JR: But I mean, who-MR. GASTON: Between Federal Reserve Bank and Maloney.

H.M.JR: But there must be somebody in my staff

who is responsible for the fact that there are fifteen
or twenty men there in Aniline and Dye.

MR. GASTON: For the fact there are that many men?
H.M.JR: Yes.
MR. GASTON: Well, because the Foreign Funds asked

for them and Maloney, the Coordinator in New York who

is the Secret Service Agent in charge, is the man who

has assigned the men to that work.

H.M.JR: Is it Maloney?
MR. GASTON: Yes.

H.M.JR: Have you seen the report on it?
MR. GASTON: I have not seen the report.
H.M.JR: Well, Maloney comes under Wilson and then
under you, doesn't he?
MR. GASTON: Maloney, on this work, comes under Irey,

and then under me.

H.M.JR: Well, Herbert, it eventually comes up to
you, doesn't it?
MR. GASTON: That is right.

H.M.JR: Take a look at the report that Foley made

6

6-

to me on these men and the quality of them. I mean, the
fact that they suddenly became investigators on one of

the most difficult jobs we have, I think the whole thing
is a reflection on our own organization.
MRS. KLOTZ: I understood they were assigned as
guards, and then were just taken on as investagors without

Mr. Irey knowing anything about it.

H.M.JR: Well, I don't see how Irey can escape that,
I mean, the fact that they stay there. Somebody, some-

where along the line, is responsible. The fact that

we had men who are qualified as guards doing the most

intricate investigation, I think it is - I mean, start-

ing with you and Foley, I think the whole thing is - that
a thing like that can happen in the Treasury is terrible.
MR. GASTON: Well, I just haven't seen that report.
I haven't been able to keep - I haven't had reports on

what those men are doing. They have been working very
closely under Ed's men up there in New York, and I am
quite ignorant of what the men have been doing.

H.M.JR: Well-MR. GASTON: We have tried to set up an arrangement

under which the coordinators would furnish the men, but
it hasn't always worked out.
H.M.JR: Well, supposing Norman Thompson takes a

look into that whole thing for me with Gaston. Is that

what you wanted to talk to me about?
MR. GASTON: No.

H.M.JR: Well, supposing he does that. I mean, the
fact that a thing like that can happen. Each person says
that it is somebody else's fault, but you have got a lot
of guards doing the most intricate investigating and they

stick there. It is a reflection on the Treasury. I
don't want it to happen again, that is the whole point
of the investigation. If it could happen once, it is

bad enough, but nobody will take the responsibility that

7

-7

they are there, and that we have a lot of men of guard
mentality supposed to - up against some of the cleverest

people in the world. I think - I say it could happen
once, but it can't happen twice.
MR. GASTON: Well, these men are not - these men

that they have held are investigators. They have also

got guards who have been independently hired.

H.M.JR: Well, Herbert, take a look at the report.
Everybody says it is somebody else's responsibility. I

am not saying it is yours, but I want to know whose

responsibility it is. I don't know whether Foley claims
it is his responsibility or not.
MR. FOLEY: No, Mr. Secretary, I think I made my

position perfectly clear. These men are investigators,

and they are doing investigating work, and we asked the
Treasury Investigating Service to provide us with men.
Now, the caliber of the men that they provide us with

is not our responsibility and, as I understand it, that
is the thing that you are questioning.
H.M.JR: Now, wait a minute. Who did you ask?
MR. FOLEY: We asked Maloney up in New York.

MRS. KLOTZ: Mr. Irey says they are not investigators.

He says they were assigned as guards.
MR. FOLEY: No, not these men.

MR. CHARLES BELL: I think that question goes right

to Mr. Irey. Maloney only--

H.M.JR: Well, It is Irey's responsibility, and the

fact remains, you have got a lot of men who haven't even
a mediocre education doing this intricate work, and the

fact that Irey - I don't know what it is, but I would
like to run it down so it can't happen again. Now, if

Irey sent them in as guards, as Mrs. Klotz said, and
then they became investigators, he should have pulled
them out. The fact that Joe O'Connell will work with

8

-8

people like that is a reflection on him, the fact that
he didn't kick them out or register a complaint. The
whole thing - look here, Ed-MR. FOLEY: Beggars can't be choosers, Mr. Secretary.

H.M.JR: Now wait a minute. If I send you ten
lawyers and all of them are in the bottom of their class,

are you just going to take them?

MR. FOLEY: No, certainly not.
H.M.JR: Then why should O'Connell take the responsi-

bility for these investigators?

MR. GASTON: We would like to take the responsibility

on this thing if we can get some figures. I have never

heard any complaint on this or had any requests for men.

Men who were put on guarding - we were endeavoring to

relieve all the Treasury men on guarding in this Foreign

Funds and replace them with hired men so long as they
were doing guarding, and then I found in New York and

other places they didn't want to let them go because
they were using them on investigating work. If we get
the requests here for the kind of men they want, we try
to get them good men and take full responsibility on it.

I have had no report on what these men were doing.

H.M.JR: Elmer is under a cloud, as far as I am concerned, on this thing until he can prove otherwise, so
I am asking Norman to do this thing. I mean, you send

me - if you send Mrs. Klotz down some stenographer from

the Pool to help here, and Mrs. Klotz sends in some
letters which are badly written, I would say, "Why do
you do this?" Well, she would send the person back
until she got a good person. She wouldn't accept a
person who was a poor typist and so forth. She would

send it back. Then the attitude, "Well, that is what
they sent me, so I can't do anything." Now, to get that
attitude in the Treasury in these times, I think it is
terrible, and I want to dynamite it.
MR. CHARLES BELL: We recruited about two hundred

9

-9college graduates as investigators since last June.
They are high-class men who have had some training in
foreign exchange and who would understand this situation
perfectly.
Those men are under me primarily on Foreign
Funds.
MR. FOLEY: These aren't Foreign Funds men he is

talking about.

MR. GASTON: I don't think Irey has had any complaint

about this. I haven't heard anything about this at all.
H.M.JR: I am the man who is complaining.

MR. GASTON: Well, if there is something wrong, I

would
likethis.
to know about it myself. I haven't had any
report on
MR. FOLEY: A copy of Bernard's report has been

given to Irey, and Irey is taking steps now to replace
the people that we found were not up to standard with

good people.

H.M.JR: Well, I still say that if I send Harry

White back three or four economists and they are no good,
and they do a lot of bad work, and he comes in and says,
"Well, I am sorry, Mr. Morgenthau, the men you sent me
were no good" - that wouldn't happen in this shop. There
is something
where
it is. wrong, Ed, somewhere, and I want to find out
MR. GASTON: I would like to have a chance to look

into this myself.

H.M.JR: O.K.

MR. GASTON:
Because I have heard nothing about this.
It doesn't
come to me.
H.M.JR: I don't know how many other places we have

got policemen doing investigating work. I have prided
myself on our investigators, but I can't at this moment.

10

- 10 MRS. KLOTZ: There are a lot of the best men that
have been taken away, and there is going to be a shortage
of investigators.

H.M.JR: Well, did you see a copy of this report
on these men? Let Mr. Gaston have a copy of it. You

will look into it also?

MR. GASTON: Yes. If we are going to be responsibile
for furnishing these men, I would like to know something

about what they want. I am trying my best to get this
thing centralized so we can be responsible instead of

having the men simply grabbed without consultation. The

thing was done in a great hurry at the start, and on the

night of December 7 - and orders were sent out whereby
the Federal Reserve banks just went out and got inen

without even consulting the Coordinators. I got Ed and
Bernie and so on together to try to get this thing regularized so that the requests would be made through the
Coordinators, and so that we could handle it in some sort
of way.

H.M.JR: Well, it is evident, Herbert, that we have
to have some kind of a change. I mean, somebody, somewhere,

has to be responsible, so if I say, "Well, these men are
no good," somebody can say, "Well, that is my fault."
MR. GASTON: Well, I am perfectly willing to take

the responsibility if I can get some information, but it
is an illustration of how this thing comes up. I learned
nothing
about
it. about it. I don't know when Irey heard anything
H.M.JR: Well, he must have had - how long has Irey
had it?
MR. FOLEY: Well, Irey knew about it when you asked

me to have somebody check them.

H.M.JR: That is ten days ago.
MR. FOLEY: That was ten days or two weeks ago, and

then Irey was furnished with a copy of the report after

Larry Bernard checked them.

11

- 11 H.M.JR: Well, Irey should have told you (Gaston)

at once. He is your subordinate, isn't he?

MR. GASTON: That is right, on this sort of work.
once.

H.M.JR: Well, he should have reported to you at
MRS. KLOTZ: The men were taken from Alcohol Tax.
MR. GASTON: There were a great many men taken

directly without consultation with us at all. Men who

were on--

MR. FOLEY: These fellows were never guards, Herbert.

They were taken as investigators. We asked for a certain
number of investigators in New York, and these were the
fellows that were assigned to us. The Secretary asked me
to check them and see whether or not from a standpoint of

competence they were up to par, and Larry Bernard checked
them and talked to each one of them and said that they

were all loyal, and he had no question as to their honesty
or their integrity. He did have some question as to the
competency of about ten or eleven of them.

(Mr. Stewart enters the conference.)
MR. GASTON: I knew nothing about this. No request
was ever made to me for these people or hasn't been yet.
MR. FOLEY: That information was given to Elmer before
the check was made, and the report after the check was
given to Elmer, and Elmer told Larry Bernard that he was
taking steps to see that they were replaced and competent
people were put there.
H.M.JR: I would send for Elmer and ask him why he
doesn't let you know what is going on.

MR. GASTON: Well, I think that Mr. Foley's office
should let me know a little bit about what is going on.

12

- 12 MR. PAUL: May I interrupt you just a moment, Mr.
Morgenthau? I think Mr. Blough and I had better get up

on the Hill. This is the first day, and we have to be
up there at ten o'clock.
H.M.JR: All right. Good luck.
(Mr. Paul and Mr. Blough leave the conference.)
H.M.JR: John?

MR. SULLIVAN: You sent me a memo about the discus-

sion in Cabinet on mash, industrial alcohol.
H.M.JR: Yes.

MR. SULLIVAN: I will have a complete memo on that
for you by noon.
H.M.JR: Good.

MR. SULLIVAN: I think they are wrong. I think
this was picked up in small quantities through the hills.
H.M.JR: Well, the Attorney General was very positive
about it.
MR. SULLIVAN: Well, you would have to have a tank

car of mash to get a few gallons of alcohol.

H.M.JR: Is it in his custody?
MR. SULLIVAN: After it is seasoned? Yes. But I
will have a complete memo on that. I saw the Commissioner
Thursday afternoon, and you wanted me to get in touch with
you afterward.

H.M.JR: Yes.
MR. SULLIVAN: Doughton sent for me yesterday morning.

There was something else he wanted me to tell you, so

whenever you are free today, I will be glad to see you.

That is all I have.

13

- 13 MR. BUFFINGTON: I have nothing.

H.M.JR: Ferdie?
MR. KUHN: I have only some background on the

Disney matter. I mentioned it to you.

H.M.JR: I will read it. Then you let me know.
But I am not going to try to sell Disney.
MR. KUHN: You want to see him, though?

H.M.JR: Only after he is ready to do the picture.

When he has made up his mind to do the picture.
MR. KUHN: I have nothing else.
H.M.JR: George?

MR. HAAS: Here is the Nelson report. That explains

why the situation is as it is. We are moving right along
on that. The main thing there is that he said the Russians
were slow in specifying what they wanted. Then, when the
specifications did come in, they were non-standard, so it

required practically a custom job for each item. We are
moving along. The position of the goods at shipside from
there on is very vague. I hope to get some information
from Philadelphia today on that.

H.M.JR: All right. Anything else?
MR. HAAS: That is all.

H.M.JR: Walter? You get in a conference with Bell,

will you?

MR. STEWART: I will.

H.M.JR: They seem to think they have to have a dress

rehear sel before they see me at three. Harry?

MR. WHITE: Will you want to set aside some time
this week to meet the same group that you had here twice

14

- 14 in considering what items you expect the British to let

you have, what payments you wish to make for British
expenditures?

H.M.JR: Yes.
MR. WHITE: Dean Acheson sent you his suggestion,

how to handle the situation. You remember that you

were going to wait until he had let you know. Well,
he has let you know in this memorandum which--

H.M.JR: You had better send that in and let me
read it.
MR. WHITE: Well, there is an answer going through
to him which merely--

H.M.JR: When will I get-says that you will be ready today,
that you expect soon to call a meeting.
H.M.JR: Oh. Could we have it while Stewart is
MR. WHITE:

here?

MR. WHITE: You wanted him in on that, yes. I
should think so. You (Stewart) are here for two days?
MR. STEWART: Today and tomorrow.

H.M.JR: I could do it at three tomorrow.
MR. WHITE: You will have the large group in tomorrow,
the State Department and Army and Navy? If so, you had

better have a prior time.

H.M.JR: Well, I can do ours in the morning and
these others in the afternoon.

MR. WHITE: It is quite all right.
H.M.JR: Supposing I put you down for eleven o'clock
tomorrow morning and then the big group at three?

15

- 15 -

MR. WHITE: Then you had better notify the large
group this morning.

H.M.JR: Well, will you tell Stephens?
MR. WHITE: Yes. Do you want the same people here
who were here last time? There was a large representation, Agriculture, Army, Navy, Lend-Lease.

H.M.JR: I think so.
MR. WHITE: And Economic Warfare?

H.M.JR: I think so. Anybody who is interested

in the Treasury can meet here at eleven tomorrow. We

will take full advantage of Stewart being here. We will
work him. You had better let me take that letter home
to read it tonight, the letter, Harry, that Acheson wrote

me and then circulate it amongst our own group.
MR. WHITE: It already has been.

H.M.JR: Has Stewart seen it?

MR. WHITE: He hasn't seen it, sir.

H.M.JR: No. Harry, what about this price of silver

in Bombay?

MR. WHITE: Well, you have got the answer before you.
The answer is very simple.

H.M.JR: No, I have just got the question.
MR. WHITE: Well, the answer was very simple. I
can give it to you orally. The answer was routed to you.
The reason there is an increase in demand for silver is
rather the simple one that owing to the increasingly grave

political and military situation, many Indians seem to
prefer silver to rupee currency, paper currency, which is
a natural outgrowth of the victories the Japanese are

16

- 16 having. Then, there has always been a big spread between
their price and the New York price, which has been

increased by virtue of the cessation of the granting of
permits for the importation of silver. In other words,
there is still less silver coming on the market now.

The spread between the future and the present prices is

also a reflection of the fact that they are so disturbed

about the future prospects of Indian independence that a
lot of them don't want to enter any future commitments

for the sale of silver. There is nothing unusual about
the situation beyond that.
H.M.JR: Ed?

MR. FOLEY: Here is this letter about Larry Bernard.
If you could give us a few minutes this morning around
eleven thirty.
H.M.JR: Yes. What else?
MR. FOLEY: Nothing.

H.M.JR: I sent you a suggestion. I don't know
whether you have got it yet.
MR. FOLEY: Not yet.

H.M.JR: Should we let the Tolan Committee on the
West Coast know what we are doing? What?
MR. FOLEY: By all means.

H.M.JR: I sent you a memo on it.
MR. FOLEY: By all means. I talked with John
Pehle - yes, that is a good idea.

H.M.JR: Don't you think that is a good idea?
They are still there, you see.
now.

MR. FOLEY: That is right. They are in San Francisco

2

17

- 17 H.M.JR: You might be drafting a telegram to them.
Ed, don't you think that is a good idea.

MR. FOLEY: Yes, it is. We could either do it by

sending them a copy of the instructions that we have
given to the - I mean the program we worked out, and the
instructions that have been given to the Federal Reserve
in San Francisco, or we could have John Pehle go around
and see them, and tell them orally what we have done.

H.M.JR: I think you ought to have a written record.

MR. FOLEY: All right. They - the boys didn't get

to Los Angeles until about eleven o'clock Pacific Time
Saturday night. They had a head-wind all the way out
and had pretty hard sledding, and Pehle called me yesterday about three o'clock. It was around twelve out there,
eleven or twelve. They had spent the night in Los Angeles,
and they were going on up to San Francisco in the afternoon, yesterday afternoon. They expected to spend a

couple of days there, and McCloy was going on up to
Portland and Seattle and wanted Pehle to go along with him,
and Mr. Eisenhauer was on the plane along with Szymczak,

so they are all together.

H.M.JR: That is grand. Anything else?
MR. FOLEY: Nothing else.
H.M.JR: Harold?
MR. GRAVES: Nothing.

H.M.JR: Just as a reminder, I spoke yesterday on
the phone to the man that handles that. What's his name?
MR. GRAVES: Duffus.

H.M.JR: He hadn't got anywhere on it yet. You

might give him a little push. He is sick, though.

MR. GRAVES: He will, he is on the job this morning.

18

- 18 -

H.M.JR: All right.
MR. GRAVES: He had been away ever since the last

meeting. He is back this morning.
H.M.JR: Dan?

MR. BELL: Did somebody prepare an answer to
Henderson's letter?
H.M.JR: No.
MR. BELL: Should it be answered?
H.M.JR: Yes.

MR. BELL: I think it should.
H.M.JR: Anything else?
MR. BELL: Would you want to sign the China
agreement tomorrow if we are able to get everything ready?

H.M.JR: Oh, I called up Mr. Wells around one o'clock
Saturday, and he said he would clear it the same day.

MR. BELL: I didn't hear.
H.M.JR: He said he would.

MR. BELL: I will give him a ring this morning, then.
H.M.JR: He said he would clear it.
MR. BELL: Well, if they clear it and if you can get
Soong to clear it, we might be able to do it this evening.
H.M.JR: What is that?

MR. BELL: I say if they clear it in the State

Department and we can get Soong to clear it without further
cables to China, we might be able to sign it this evening.

- 19 -

19

H.M.JR: Well, the only time I can do it would be

at two forty-five.

MR. BELL: Otherwise it will have to be tomorrow?

H.M.JR: Yes, but I would like to do it today if

possible.

MR. BELL: I will see what can be done?

H.M.JR: All right?
MR. BELL: Yes.

H.M.JR: Anything else?

MR. BELL: That is all.
MR. WHITE: Henderson, at the meeting of the Price
Committee, spoke very highly of the cooperation which

the Treasury is giving him, and the opportunities that

the Treasury is providing his organization to comment on

the tax program.

H.M.JR: Ferdie, before my press conference this
afternoon - somebody in Chick's family was sick. He

called me up. I have not seen in the press, and I would
like to know. There are two things I would like to get
for this afternoon. One is the table on the indirect
taxes that the man - married man and single man pay, and
then that tax - the other table which shows how much they

save up to fifteen hundred dollars.
MR. KUHN: Would you like to give that to them this

afternoon?

H.M.JR: Yes.

MR. SULLIVAN: It is in the hearings, Ferdie.

H.M.JR: But it is not in the press.
MR. KUHN: It is very interesting that the press
editorially has been swell about the tax program, I think,

20

- 20 -

on the whole, but today for the first time, the financial
editorsgot to work and that is just what you might of
expected.

H.M.JR: Have you seen it in the press, this table?
MR. SULLIVAN: No, I have not, sir.

H.M.JR: I don't think they ran it.
MR. WHITE: There was an article in the TimesHerald, in the gossip column, about you and Frankfurter.

Was it called to your attention?
H.M.JR: No.

MR. WHITE: Well, I think you would want to read it.
I got it second-hand.

H.M.JR: Give it to me third-hand.
MR. WHITE: Well, you will be able to see it in the
article. I can tell you what was reported to me, as being
that Frankfurter and yourself were very much disturbed

about the possibility of Cripps supplanting Churchill,
and rushed to the President to urge him to prevent it, if
possible. (Laughter)

H.M.JR: Cissie knows more about it than I do. It
is news to me. I would like to see it.
MR. WHITE: I was hoping it would be news to you.

H.M.JR: It is news to me. John, you might stay

a minute.

MR. SULLIVAN: Yes, sir.

21

March 9, 1942
Ed. Foley
Secretary Morgenthau

Please talk over with me this morning the advisability of letting the Tolan Committee on the West

Coast know just what steps we have taken during the
last few days.

Taben up at 9'30
meeting 3/9/42.

22
Salaries & Expenses Foreign Exchange Control-1942
MAR 9- 1942

RONORABLE JOHN N. TOLAS, CHAIRMAN
HOUSE COMMITTEE INVESTIGATING NATIONAL DEFENSE NIGRATION
SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA

THE FEDERAL RESERVE BARK OF SAN FRANCISCO IS WORKING OUT A PROGRAM

TO DEAL WITH THE PROPERTY OF EVACUEES FROM THE PACIFIC COAST MILITARY
AREAS SUBSTANTIALLY AS OUTLINED BELOW:

[HERE TAKE IN ATTACHED

THIS PROGRAM IS BEING PUT INTO EFFECT AT THE REQUEST OF THE
SECURITARY OF WAR AND WILL BE CARRIED OUT UNDER THE GENERAL DIRECTION OF

THE LOCAL MILITARY AUTHORITIES. FULL AUTHORITY HAS BEEE DELEGATED TO
THE FEDERAL RESERVE BANK OF SAN FRANCISCO TO CARRY OUT SUCH A PROGRAM.

I AM ASKING JOHN W. PSHLE, ASSISTANT TO THE SECRETARY, WHO IS
IN SAN FRANCISCO FOR THE PURPOSE OF HELPING THE FEDERAL RESERVE BANK

TO PUT THIS PROGRAM INTO EFFECT, TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU AND KEEP YOU
ADVISED AS TO THE PROGRESS OF THE PROGRAM.

(signed) H. Morgenthau, Jc.
SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY.

BBinrd - 3/9/42.

3/9/42

23

Miss Chauncey:

is is the attachment referred to in the Tolan
wire of today.

Sent teletype - to be delivered to Tolan at

1749 Pleasant Valley Avenue, Oakland, Calif.

Copy to be sent to Pehle at Federal Reserve Bank,
San Francisco, by teletype.
12:50 p.m., March 9, 1942.

SUGGESTED PROGRAM FOR THE FEDERAL RESERVE / RANK

24

OF SAN FRANCISCO AND OTHER PUBLIC AGENCIES TO
DEAL WITH PROPERTY OF EVACUEES FROM PACIFIC

COAST ILITARY AREAS.

The success of the proposed program will depend upon placing

complete responsibility for its execution in a responsible West Coast
agency acting under the general direction of the local military
authorities.
I

Scope of Problem:

The evacuation on short notice of tens of thousands of persons
from Military Areas on the Pacific Coast raises serious problems in connection with the liquidation of their property holdings and the protection
of the property of such persons against fraud, forced sales, and unscrupulous creditors. Obviously the emergency will cause financial loss to the
;roup involved. However, the following program is intended to accord to
this group reasonable protection of their property interests consistent
with the war effort.

II - Legal Authority:
Since the program is one basically to assist the evacuee in the

liquidation of his property, it is expected that in most instances the
evacuee will voluntarily avail himself of the facilities afforded by this

program. Governmental sanctions will be necessary to deal with creditors
and others who seek unfair advantage of the evacuees. There is ample legal

authority now vested in the military authorities and in the Treasury

Department which can be delegated to such West Coast agency to deal with

this problem without necessity of obtaining further legislation or new

executive orders.

III - Administration of Program:
The nature and urgency of the situation, coupled with the large
volume of transactions that will require prompt handling, necessitates the
program's being administered by an agency on the West Coast cloaked with

full authority to act without reference to Washington. The over-all control of all aspects of the evacuation must obviously rest in the military

authorities. Subject to this over-all control by the Army, the direct
responsibility for the execution of the property aspects of the program

should be placed in the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco, which has
branch offices in Los Angeles, Seattle, and Portland. The Federal Reserve

-2-

25

ank will be in a position to obtain the cooperation of other Government

gencies, and of well-known and experienced Individuals and institutions
in the various communities throughout the West Coast area. This coopera-

tion, together with the established integrity and ability of the Federal
Reserve Bank, will enlist the confidence of all of the affected groups
and discourage gouging by creditors or other self-seeking interests.

The Federal Reserve Bank will also work in close liaison with
the Federal Security Agency, the United States Department of Agriculture,
and other Federal, State, and local public agencies that can be of
assistance in dealing with the property during the course of its liquidation. These agencies will undoubtedly be called upon by the military
authorities to handle other aspects of the evacuation problem, such as
the transportation and resettlement of the evacuees, and their reemploy-

ment in new areas.

The Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco, which is the fiscal
agent of the Treasury Department, will be clothed with ample authority
to execute the program. The Treasury Department will lay down the broad
principles and objectives of such program as well as the general procedure
to be followed. The Department will also furnish the San Francisco Bank

by airplane with the requisite number of trained experts to assist in
working out the details of the program in the field and to participate
its execution. If need be the Department is in a position to provide
the San Francisco Federal at once with 100 or more men for this purpose.

The keynote of this program is\speed. It is believed that it

can be put in operation by Monday, March d, 1942.
IV

- Outline of Program.

A. Properly staffed offices under the direction of the San

Francisco Federal Reserve Bank will be opened at once in the local

communities from which evacuees will be moved.

B. Announcement will be made throughout the area by the Federal
Reserve Bank of San Francisco that its representatives in these offices
are prepared to assist evacuees with the problem of liquidating their
property and protecting them against those seeking to take unfair advan-

tage of their plight.

a

C. These representatives will assist in putting the evacuees in
position to obtain buyers, lessees, and other users of their property

on fair terms. In cases where the evacuee is unable to select his own
agent to dispose of his property, the Federal will be prepared to act as
agent for the evacuee under a power of attorney or similar arrangement and

ke steps to liquidate the property on fair terms.

26

-3D. Evacuees threatened by creditors will be encouraged to
come to the representatives of the Federal for advice and guidance.
The Federal representative will also discuss the matter with the

creditor with the view to working out a fair settlement and limiting

the remedies that may be pursued by the creditor who threatens un-

fair action. By and large the mere existence of this program of helping evacuees will eliminate or forestall most of the sharp practices
that are now feared.

E. In some cases the property of the evacuee may be such

that its real value can only be realized at a future time, e.g., Japanese novelties. In such cases the Bank's representative will assist
the evacuee in arranging for the storage of such property if that is
the wish of the evacuee.

F. On agricultural properties the Bank's representative,
with the assistance of representatives of the U. S. Department of
Agriculture, will attempt to arrange for the leasing or sale of such
property or if need be for the growing of the crops, with a view to
preventing their loss through Inattention.
G. The Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco and its

representatives will be cloaked with adequate authority to cope with
problems arising on the basis of existing circumstances. The program

will be flexible and at all times the Bank will attempt to keep matters
on a voluntary basis, satisfactory to the evacuee. Where these offorts fail it may be necessary for the Bunk's representative to step
in and take the property over for the purpose of obtaining a fair and
reasonable liquidation.

It is expected that the setting up of this program and the
accordance to the evacuees of facilities for the liquidation of their
property should greatly expedite the departure on a voluntary basis
of the avacuees from the military area.

3/4/42

27

TREASURY DEPARTMENT
INTER OFFICE COMMUNICATION

DATE March 9, 1942
TO

Secretary Morgenthau

FROM

Mr. White

HOW

Subject: Silver Legislation

gr

We are submitting a draft of the silver bill which, during the
period of emergency, directs the cessation of silver purchases and
authorizes the sale of Treasury silver at not less than thirty-five

cents an ounce. We believe that it would be preferable to suspend

silver purchases during the emergency rather than to seek permanent
elimination of such purchases because:

1. It will call forth less opposition on the part of silver
interests.

It will justify your raising the problem at this time

2.

purely as a measure for diverting labor and equipment
to war uses.

3. It will not directly raise the question of the desirability of our silver policy in the past.
4.

It will not prevent Congress from going farther and

eliminating entirely all silver purchases, but the
responsibility will be theirs and not yours.
If you agree with the foregoing, the following steps are suggested:

1. Have the President indicate whether he wants the silver
question raised at this time. He may prefer not to stir up opposition in Congress on a matter of relatively small importance.
2. Get a statement from the War Production Board that (a) more
silver on the market at current prices would help the war effort and
(b) that silver mining is absorbing labor and equipment which could
be more profitably used in the war effort.
3. Secure the support and acquiescence of Jesse Jones to the
purchase by the Metals Reserve Corporation of high-cost copper, lead,
and zinc from mines thatdepend on high silver prices to maintain
production of these essential materials.
When these three steps are satisfactorily completed, you will
probably want to discuss the problem with leaders in the Senate
nd the House before having the bill presented.
You may wish to read the appended memorandum setting forth in
more detail the emergency silver program.

28

TREASURY DEPARTMENT
INTER OFFICE COMMUNICATION
DATE

March 9, 1942

Secretary Morgenthau

TO

Mr. White

FROM

Subject:

Silver Legislation

We are ready to submit for your approval a draft of a bill
providing for suspension of silver purchases and authorizing the
Treasury to sell silver at not less than 35 cents an ounce during
the period of emergency. The bill does not affect the Treasury's
power to purchase silver for coinage or to issue silver certificates.

We feel it would be a mistake to include in the bill authority

to sell Treasury silver except with a stipulated minimum price.
The threat of the enormous Treasury supply of silver hanging over
the market without a minimum price at which it could be sold would

arouse much greater opposition to the bill by the silver interests,

and might make passage of the bill uncertain. Moreover, we do not

believe that the authority to sell silver is of immediate im-

portance because with the entire domestic output offered in the
market it is very doubtful whether there would be any substantial
demand for Treasury silver at anything like current prices. The
addition to the market of domestic output of possibly 50 to 60
million ounces (output for 1942 at 71 cents will be about 70
million ounces) should prevent the price of silver from rising
above 35 cents for some time, and might well drive the price
down to 30 cents.

If, in addition, an attempt were made to sell substantial
quantities of Treasury silver in competition with domestic and
imported silver, the price would be still further depressed-how much, of course, would depend on the quantity of silver the
Treasury tried to sell. Furthermore, the amount of silver
offered on the market would very likely be further increased
by the fact that such legislation would encourage countries to
sell some of the silver they now hold BE monetary reserves.

Should the expension in the industrial uses of silver prove

to be so great that a shortage appears notwithstanding the added
supply from domestic output, the Treasury could, under the terms

of the bill drafted, sell some of its silver.
The drafted bill also contains a provision for the continued purchase of domestic silver at the 71-cent price for
P. period of three months after the enactment of the bill.

--

29

As the hearings and discussions on the bill will certainly last many
weeks, the silver producers will have a period of at least four to
five months in which to make whatever adjustments may be necessary.
Silver mined during the period of suspension would not be eligible
for purchase by the Treasury as newly-mined domestic silver when

the emergency is terminated.

As the supply of silver available for industry will be increased
00 able to sell silver at 35 cents an ounce or more, it is not re-

by

the full amount of the domestic output, and 8.8 the Treasury will

garded 98 necessary to provide for lending Treasury silver for re-

coverable industrial uses.

The adventages of "suspending silver purchases at this time are
clear. They are as follows:
1. The labor, equipment, and materials released from mines
which produce predominantly silver can be utilized in the war

effort. The increased supply of silver in the domestic market will
probably drive down somewhat the price of silver but with a lower
rice of silver more will be used in industry and more of the competing metals will be free for defense use.
2. The South American countries producing silver are accumuasting gold and dollar balances now. Therefore, a slightly reduced

rice of silver will not significantly impair their exchange
osition particularly as the principal effect of the lower price

ill be to reduce profits withdrawn in dollar exchange by American

nine owners.

Though it is true that our silver purchases are inflationary

and though much can be made of that in public discussion, actually
the extent to which the coinage of silver adds to the money supply

of a country is so negligible as to warrant little emphasis on
this aspect of the problem.

The chief objection to suspending the purchase of silver is
that it will reduce the receipts and hence the output of mines
producing copper, lead, and zinc along with silver. This is a
serious objection in view of the need for these materials for

defense, but it can be met very simply by the Metals Reserve
Corporation which already has the authority and pursues the

colicy of paying higher prices for higher-cost output.
The application of this policy to the silver problem needs
no new legislation but merely requires & prior understanding
with Secretary Jones that he will take care of such contingencies,
SO that when appearing before the Congressional Committees you
111 be able successfully to meet any objection that cessation
f domestic silver purchased by the Treasury will reduce the

30

-3supply of domestically-mined copper, lead, and zinc. With regard
to foreign copper, lead, and zinc, produced along with silver, the
etals Reserve Corporation can, in exceptional cases, also pay
slightly more for such metals. In any case, the decrease in price
to foreign silver producers will probably not be large enough to
seriously curtail production abroad during war time.
are:

Two disadvantages in suspending the silver purchase program

1. It will be interpreted 8.9 8 confession by the Administration that its silver purchase program was a mistake. I think
it might be justly said, however, that the silver purchase program
while not suited to a country at war was well suited to a country
in depression. Nonetheless, the step will be heralded by the press
and commentators as the "deserved end of a ridiculous policy
instituted by the present administration."
2. If the suspension of silver purchases were to reduce the
market price of silver below 35 cents an ounce, it would show an
even greater disparity between the market price of silver and the
value of silver bullion on the books of the Treasury. However,
nless very considerable quantities of silver are sold at 35 cents

Cn ounce, there will be no bookkeeping loss.

31
A BILL

To suspend certain provisions of the
Silver Purchase Act of 1934 and of

the Act of July 6, 1939, to provide

for the sale of silver, and for other

purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of
the United States of America in Congress assembled, That Section 3 of

the Silver Purchase Act of 1934, 48 Stat. 1178 (U.S.C., title 31,
sec. 734a), is hereby suspended: Provided, That nothing in this Act

shall be construed to limit the authority of the Secretary of the
Treasury to carry out the provisions of any contract or agreement
made pursuant to said section prior to the enactment of this Act,
or to acquire and make payment for silver pursuant to any such contract or agreement.

Sec. 2. Section 4 of the Act of July 6, 1939, 53 Stat. 998
(U.S.C., title 31, sec. 316c), is hereby suspended, such suspension

to become effective on the ninetieth day following the date of enactment of this Act, and no silver mined during the period of suspension

shall be eligible for deposit pursuant to the provisions of said
section 4: Provided. That within such reasonable time after the
effective date of such suspension as the Secretary of the Treasury
shall determine, the coinage mints shall, in accordance with the pro-

visions of said section 4 of the Act of July 6, 1939, and the Regulations of the Secretary of the Treasury issued thereunder, receive

and settle for deposits of silver mined prior to the effective date
of such suspension.

32

-Sec. 3. The Secretary of the Treasury, without regard to any

other provision of law, is hereby authorized to sell at home or
abroad, in such amounts, at such rates in excess of thiry-five cents
per troy ounce .999 fine, at such times, and upon such terms and conditions as he may deem reasonable and most advantageous to the public

interest, any silver bullion in the monetary stocks of the United
States not then held for redemption of any outstanding silver certificates.

Sec. 4. Sections 1 to 3, inclusive, shall remain in force
only until December 31, 1944, and after such sections cease to be in
force, any provisions of law amended or suspended thereby shall be

in full force and effect as though this Act had not been enacted.

33
A BILL

To suspend certain provisions of the
Silver Purchase Act of 1934 and of

the Act of July 6, 1939, to provide
for the sale of silver, and for other

purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of
the United States of America in Congress assembled, That Section 3 of

the Silver Purchase Act of 1934, 48 Stat. 1178 (U.S.C., title 31,
sec. 734a), is hereby suspended: Provided, That nothing in this Act

shall be construed to limit the authority of the Secretary of the
Treasury to carry out the provisions of any contract or agreement
made pursuant to said section prior to the enactment of this Act,
or to acquire and make payment for silver pursuant to any such contract or agreement.

Sec. 2. Section 4 of the Act of July 6, 1939, 53 Stat. 998
(U.S.C., title 31, sec, 316e), is hereby suspended, such suspension

to become effective on the ninetieth day following the date of enactment of this Act, and no silver mined during the period of suspension

shall be eligible for deposit pursuant to the provisions of said
section 41 Provided That within such reasonable time after the
effective date of such suspension as the Secretary of the Treasury

shall determine, the coinage mints shall, in accordance with the pro-

visions of said section 4 of the Act of July 6, 1939, and the Regulations of the Secretary of the Treasury issued thereunder, receive

and settle for deposits of silver mined prior to the effective date
of such suspension.

34

-2Sec. 3. The Secretary of the Treasury, without regard to any

other provision of law, is hereby authorized to sell at home or
abroad, in such amounts, at such rates in excess of thiry-five cents
per troy ounce .999 fine, at such times, and upon such terms and conditions as he may deem reasonable and most advantageous to the public

interest, any silver bullion in the monetary stocks of the United
States not then held for redemption of any outstanding silver certificates.

Sec. 4. Sections 1 to 3, inclusive, shall remain in force
only until December 31, 1944, and after such sections cease to be in
force, any provisions of law amended or suspended thereby shall be

in full force and effect as though this Act had not been enacted.

Zgt xRB3 S.J.S.footh

8v us

35

MEMORANDUM

March 9, 1942.

TO:

The Secretary

FROM:

Mr. Sullivan

TLS

I understand that the Attorney General has stated that there
will be destroyed 567,000,000 gallons of bootleg mash and that he has
inquired why this could not be converted into distilled alcohol.

During the fiscal year 1941, the following quantities of
alcohol, distilled spirits and mash were seized:
6,868,078

"

Low-proof moonshine spirits
Mash

40,449 gallons
234,947

"

Alcohol

It is the policy of the Alcohol Tax Unit to remove all

distilling equipment and materials having a tangible value to a place
of storage whenever the cost of removal is not out of proportion to

the value of the property. All alcohol seized at illicit distilleries

is removed, forfeited and cleared for disposition through the Procurement Division except in those instances where the distillery is
in such an inaccessible place that the cost of removal exceeds the
value of the alcohol.

The cost of removal and re-distillation of low-proof
moonshine spirits exceeds its value at the time of seizure and hence
is destroyed on the premises. The same procedure is followed with
the mash. The 6,868,078 gallons of mash seized in 1941 was taken from

11,000 different illicit distilleries, almost all of which were in
inaccessible locations.

Mr. Berkshire reports to me that he knows of no alcohol,
low-proof moonshine spirits or rash in the custody of the Department
of Justice and that the Treasury Department not only has no quantity
of low-proof moonshine spirits or mash but does not contemplate any

change in its policy to retain rather than to destroy either of these
two commodities.

36
March 9, 1942
10:31 a.m.
HMJr:

Hello.

Operator:

Mr. Patterson.

HMJr:

Hello. Hello, Bob.

Robert

Patterson:

Hello, Henry.

HMJr:

How are you?

P:

Fine.

HMJr:

Bob, I'd like if you could clear up something

P:

Yes.

HMJr:

for me.

Is it correct or incorrect that the Army no

longer accepts volunteers except for the Air
Corps.

P:

No, it accepts them for all.

HMJr:

It does.

P:

Yes. In two ways.

HMJr:

Yes.

P:

HMJr:
P:

HMJr:

A man can go to a regular recruiting station,
or he can go to his local draft board and stand
forth as a volunteer and be sent in by them.

Is that - that still is true?
That still is true.
Because I was told yesterday by a General, who
shall be nameless, that they no longer took them

other than for the Air Corps.
P:

Well - no, they' '11 take any recruits. They no
longer can specify their branch of service, like
infantry or cavalry or field artillery or something. They just are taken into the Army at the

-2-

37

recruiting station, sent to a reception center,

and are there assigned to a branch, and they
have no right to take their own.
HMJr:
P:

HMJr:
P:

Yes.

But they'11 take recruits.
But during that
I made inquiry on it within the last week.

HMJr:

You did.

P:

Yes.

HMJr:

But once they get in there, if this man wants
to be a candidate for the officers' training
school once he gets in after his three months,

he can become a candidate, can't he?
P:

Yes.

HMJr:

What?

P:

Yes.

HMJr:

Is that correct?

P:

HMJr:

Yes. That is right.
But let me just go through - if a man wants to
volunteer, he goes to his - he goes where?

P:

He can either go to an Army recruiting station

HMJr:

Yes.

P:

HMJr:

P:

as in Boston or New York; or he can go to

his local draft board.

I see. And say he wants to volunteer. Would it
be an awful lot of bother to have one of your
people just give me the thing in Army language?
I'11 send a little memo over to you.

38

-3HMJr:
P:

HMJr:

Just have somebody write it out.

I'11 send a little memo over to you.
Just if a person wanted to - a boy wanted to
volunteer, how would he do it.

P:

Yeah.

HMJr:

And then

P:

I've got the thing up because it affects - my
own boy is going to do it.

HMJr:

Well

P:

And he - I told him to go to the Army recruiting

HMJr:

Your own boy's going to do it.

P:

Yeah.

HMJr:

And then - did you work it out from them - I

station in Boston.

mean, how he can become a candidate for officers'
training?

P:

He - yes, he can - he'll be taken in and sent to
one of what they call the replacement training
centers.

HMJr:
P:

Yes.

Infantry or artillery or cavalry or anything
else, and he makes application to go to an
officers' candidate school and is eligible to
go after four months.

HMJr:
P:

HMJr:

I see. Well, does it
He will have to serve in the ranks four months.
Does it make a difference what reception center
he goes to as to what branch of the service he
wants to go to?

P:

Yes. The reception - oh, no, not reception
center.

39

-4HMJr:
P:

HMJr:
P:

HMJr:

Well, what's the next thing where he
Replacement training center.
Does it make a difference?

Well, he - the replacement training center will,
when he gets into one of those - that's for
infantry, say, that pretty much sets what branch
of the service he's going to be assigned to.
So if he wants to go into infantry or cavalry,
he's
got to make up his mind at the time he goes
in.

P:

Well, yes, and he could only state his preference
and he may not get sent to it.

HMJr:

I see.

P:

In the old days, a year ago, a man who volunteered

for the regular Army could say, "I want to serve
in the infantry."

HMJr:

Yeah.

P:

And that would be the term of his enlistment.

HMJr:

Yeah.

P:

He can't do that any more.

HMJr:

Yeah.

P:

All he can say is, "I would prefer to serve in

the infantry. # Maybe he gets it, and maybe he's
sent to the Quartermaster Corps.

HMJr:

I see.

P:

But I'11 send you a little memo over.

HMJr:

Would you?

P:

You bet.

HMJr:

I mean, just the way you'd do it for your boy;

because I have my boy in mind also.

-5P:

Yeah.

HMJr:

You see?

P:

Yeah.

HMJr:

And he's interested.

P:

40

Yeah. The Air Corps, of course, 18 a separate

thing. You can volunteer direct for the Air

Corps.
HMJr:

No, he isn't thinking of the Air Corps.

P:

That's that Flying Cadet Course, and 80 on.

HMJr:

Yes.

P:

That's a different thing.

HMJr:

And is there anything over there that you've
got which describes each of the services?

P:

Yes.

HMJr:

There is.

P:

Yes.

HMJr:

Could that be sent over, too?

P:

Yes. I can do it.

HMJr:

Thank you 80 much.

P:

Right. Good-bye.

41

WAR DEPARTMENT

OFFICE OF THE UNDER SECRETARY
WASHINGTON, D.C.

March 9, 1942

The Honorable Henry Morgenthau, Jr.

Secretary of the Treasury
Washington, D. C.

Dear Mr. Secretary:

The following is the information which you requested
with respect to enlistment in the Army:
Men aged 18 to 36 may enlist at any U.S. Army Recruiting Station and men aged 18 to 45 may volunteer for in-

duction at their Selective Service local board. At both the

recruiting station and the local boards men aged 18 to 27
may enlist in the Army Air Force. There are only two choices
available, the Army Air Force and the Army of the United States.
At the reception centers where the men are sent after
induction they are classified and assigned to the various
branches of the service. In their classification they may
state a preference for a branch of the service, such as the
Field Artillery, and if there are vacancies in such branch and
they possess the requisite qualifications, they are assigned
to the branch of their preference.
All men in the ranks have an opportunity to qualify
for an Officers Candidate School after three months service as

an enlisted man. It is expected that in this calendar year

there will be approximately 75,000 commissions given to graduates of the Officers Candidate Schools in the Ground Forces
alone. Men who enlist in the Air Force and pass the necessary
test for a flying cadet at completion of their training period
are commissioned in the Air Force. Most of the flying personnel
in the Air Force, such as pilots, navigators and bombardiers
are commissioned personnel. The Air Force offers one of the
broadest opportunities for a young man to become a commissioned
officer.

I trust the foregoing information is sufficient for
your purposes. If not, I will be glad to furnish you further
details.

Best wishes.

Sincerely yours,

Robert P. Patterson,
Under Secretary of War.

42
March 9, 1942
2:38 p.m.
HMJr:

Hello.

Operator:

Miss Tully.

HMJr:

Hello.

Grace

HMJr:

Yes, Mr. Secretary. How are you, sir?
I'm very fine.

T:

That's good.

HMJr:

Physically.

T:

Good.

Tully:

HMJr:
T:

Mentally, I'11 let you say.
(Laughs) You sound all right to me; I think
I'11 pass you.

HMJr:

Thank you. If the Presidente is free and

kindly, I'd like to have a little chin
Wednesday morning.

T:

I see. All right, sir.

HMJr:

You don't sound very enthusiastic.

T:

I don't know what's happening Wednesday morning,

but I can let you know. I heard a story about
you.

HMJr:

What was that?

T:

Got a minute?

HMJr:
T:

I've got ten minutes.
Well, the President's supposed to be driving
around - up around Hyde Park

HMJr:
T:

Yes.

.....and got into the adjacent county.

43

-2HMJr:

Yes.

T:

And ran out of gas.

HMJr:

Yes.

T:

Have you heard it?

HMJr:

No, no.

T:

And 80 he - they wanted to get some gas and
they asked him for the money, and he didn't
have any money with him.

HMJr:
T:

Yeah.

So he decided he'd have to get a check cashed

and he went to the bank in this little place

and presented the check.
HMJr:

Uh huh.

T:

Well, they looked at it, and it was a pretty
big check to buy gasoline with.

HMJr:

Yeah.

T:

So they decided they'd have to call Secretary

Morgenthau and ask him about this check, 80
they called you.
HMJr:
T:

Yeah.

And you said, well, yes. He told you all about
his running out of gas, you see, and didn't
have any money, and 80 forth and

HMJr:

Wait a minute. The President called me or

T:

No, no, the vice president of the bank called

the bank called me?

you.
HMJr:
T:

Oh, the vice president of the bank.
Yes. Because it was 80 big a check he wanted
your say-80 on it, whether it was all right to
cash it.

fl

44

-3HMJr:
T:

Yeah.

And 80 you said, "Well, now, you've told me all
the circumstances and you told me it's a big

check. How big is it?"

HMJr:

Yeah.

T:

The vice president saye, "It's for a million
dollars.

HMJr:

Yeah.

T:

And you said, "Oh, give him a hundred. He
won't know the difference."

HMJr:

(Laughs)

T:

I haven't told that to him yet, but I will.
(Laughs)

HMJr:
T:

HMJr:
T:

(Laughs)

I haven't heard a real good joke in a long
time, and I like that one.
(Laughs) Oh, that's wonderful.

That's pretty fresh on your part, but still
(Laughs)

HMJr:

Pretty fresh on my part? (Laughs) Oh, that's
the first good belly laugh I've had in I don't
know when.

T:

Good.

HMJr:

Come up and see me sometime.

T:

All right, fine, I will. (Laughs)

HMJr:
T:

HMJr:
T:

(Laughs) Oh, good.

I'11 call you later on the other.
All right.
Good-bye. (Laughs)

45
March 9, 1942

MEMORANDUM FOR THE SECRETARY'S FILES

Meeting in the Secretary's Office
March 9, 1942
2:30 p.m.

Present: Mr. A. Law
Mr. W. Morris
Mr. T. Helgeson
Mr. C. Bland

Mrs. Klotz

Treasury
)

Mr. White

Three of these men were from the Pontiac plant in Flint, Michigan.
(The fourth was from the C.I.O organization in Washington.) They had
telegraphed last week to Secretary Morgenthau asking for an appointment. This conference was in answer to that telegram.
Their spokesman stated that the plant normally employed 5,200
persons, but that since January 28 only 500 had been employed (they

also had a three-week lay-off during the Christmas season). Of the

500 now in the plant, 250 were tool and dye workers who were doing

virtually nothing. These tool and dye workers, though on the pay roll,
had requested to be permitted to go to some other plant where they
could be helping to produce, but were told they would have to resign
to do so. Inasmuch as that meant loss of seniority, they preferred to
stay though they were not engaged in production.
The representatives of the men had requested a-plant manager to
give them some indication of when work might be resumed, but were un-

able to get any satisfactory explanation from the plant manager. They
hoped that the Secretary would be able to suggest how they might proceed to get some information or assurance that there would be work.
They stated that unless the men were promised work soon, some of the
men would have to move and try to get work in other parts of the
country. They also said that the morale of the men would be seriously
effected.

The Secretary asked what they thought their plant could produce.
They said they thought it could produce ambulances or fire trucks.
The Secretary asked whether they thought they could produce "invasion
landing" boats, They replied that they had a modern plant with large
presses, welders, and other skilled workers and they felt the plant
could be adapted to such work.

--

46

The Secretary telephoned Assistant Secretary of the Navy

Patterson, and told Patterson that he had this delegation of workers
from the Pontiac plant in his office who wanted to obtain some work
for their plant. He asked Patterson whether he could give them any
time to listen to their story to see whether he (Mr. Patterson)
could be of any assistance in getting that idle plant working on
some defense needs. Patterson replied that if they would come over
at once he would talk with them. They left at once for Mr. Patterson's

office.

The Secretary asked the men to let him know of the results they

obtained.

Hon

47
March 9, 1942
2:56 p.m.
HMJr:

Hello.

Operator:

Mr. Patterson.

HMJr:

Hello. Bob.

Robert

Patterson:

Yes, Henry.

HMJr:

Henry. I'm back at you again today.

P:

Yeah.

HMJr:

Bob, I've got a very fine delegation here

of automobile workers from Pontiac. Remember

you and I went into that once before?
P:

HMJr:

Yeah.

And with your help we were successful. They
represent five thousand workers from Pontiac

with no work and nothing in sight. Hello.

P:

Yeah.

HMJr:

And they want to go to work.

P:

Yeah.

HMJr:

I wondered if you could give them enough time

to hear their story, because

P:

HMJr:
P:

I'd be glad to see them. I can see them right

now if they can come over.
That's wonderful.

I'm in the new War Department building at
Twenty-first Street and Virginia Avenue.

HMJr:

Well, how can I get them into your building?

P:

Oh, they'11 pass them.

HMJr:

They will be?

48

-2P:

Yes. I'11 send down word.

HMJr:

Well

P:

How many?

HMJr:

There are four of them.

P:

Yes.

HMJr:

Mr. Bland - hello.

P:

Yes.

HMJr:

Mr. Law.

P:

Right.

HMJr:

And Mr. Morris.

P:

Mr. Bland and party.

HMJr:

Mr. C. Bland and party.

P:

Right.

HMJr:

I'll send - they'11 be there in ten minutes.

P:

Right.

HMJr:

And, as I say, they want to go to work.

P:

HMJr:

Yeah, Yeah. I'11 be glad to see them.
It's a General Motors plant.

P:

Yeah.

HMJr:

Let me know if there's anything you can do.

P:

I will, Henry. Send them over.

HMJr:

Thank you.

P:

You bet.

49

March 9, 1942
3:00 p.m.
FINANCING
2

Present:

Mr. Haas

Mr. Buffington

Mr. Murphy

Mr. Lindow

Mr. Bell

Mr. Stewart

Mr. Viner+

Mr. Sullivan

H.M.JR: Say, listen, Dan, if you are going to go

to War Bonds instead of Defense Bonds, why don't you
stop the buying?
MR. BELL: We have.
H.M.JR: As of when?

(Mr. Stewart and Mr. Viner entered the conference.)
MR. BELL: Oh, last Friday.
H.M.JR: Did you?

MR. BELL: Yes. We have got in the mill eighteen

million bonds.

H.M.JR: Well, you have got twenty-five million

on hand.

MR. BELL: Yes, and we have got eighteen million

more in the mill. That is over forty million bonds we
have got on hand that we can't possibly use before July 1.

50

-2-

H.M.JR: I don't agree with you. I believe you can
nobody will know the difference. Walter Stewart wouldn't
sell War Bonds and have them stamped Defense Bonds and

know the difference. He never looks at a bond.

MR. STEWART: I certainly wouldn't know the dif-

ference.

H.M.JR: Would you look at a bond to see whether it

is a War Bond or a Defense Bond?
MR. STEWART: No.

H.M.JR: There you are. He is just the people.
MR. BELL: Well, I am not a promotion man. I would

like to do that. You will have to talk to Harold Graves'
section.

H.M.JR: Well, I don't care, Dan, I am not going to
wait after the first of July for anybody.
MR. BELL: Well, we are planning to go July 1 to War

Bonds and dispose of as many of what we have got in the

mill as possible.

H.M.JR: Mr. Stacy May - have you got a pencil?
MR. BELL: Yes.
H.M.JR:

says that January - his figures show

that there were two and a half billion dollars spent,

he figures, on the war.

MR. BELL: January?

H.M.JR: January. February, his tentative figure
is two billion six. We spent four billion in June and
five and a half in December. That was as of March 7. I
am planning to see him every two weeks now.

MR. BELL: That includes all expenditures?

51

-3H.M.JR: Everything. He says it includes factories
which are being started and Lend-Lease and everything
for war.

MR. BELL: Well, ours includes Lend-Lease, but they

don't include RFC.
war.

H.M.JR: Well, he said everything that is for the
MR. BELL: Does that include private?

H.M.JR: No, I don't think so.
MR. BELL: Just governmental expenditures?

H.M.JR: Yes. Call him up, Haas, and ask Stacy May
on that question, will you? Ask him, George, whether
that is private or governmental.

MR. BELL: I think he includes all the Defense Plant
and the RFC and those subsidiaries plus the Treasury, and
he may put his on his checks-issued basis.
H.M.JR: Can I pass along the compliments you gave
the boys at lunch?
MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed.

H.M.JR: Mr. Stewart said that George and you men

were doing a better job in this war than was done in the

last war in preparing the technical material for financ-

ing, which I thought was quite a compliment, coming from

Mr. Stewart.

MR. HAAS: Thank you. We appreciate it greatly.

H.M.JR: He said you didn't look quite as much like
cranks as some of the other fellows.

All right, Dan, you are licked before you start.

(Laughter)

52

-4- -

MR. BELL: I suppose so. What is the use of starting then, if we are already licked?
H.M.JR: Well, go on, let's have the program.

MR. BELL: Well, it is quite large, and I suppose
the best way to do is just about what we did this morning. Viner and Stewart will take these tables and
eliminate some of the detail and let each one of these
boys explain what the table means, and we will get at
the final problem that way.
Lindow, would you give the Secretary that Table 1
and 2 and just hit the high spots?
MR. LINDOW: I think you have seen these tables in

an earlier draft. The first table shows the flow of

goods and services to Government and to private sectors
of the economy and compares the application of incomes
made available as between these two sectors, putting the
savings and taxes against the Government sectors, since

we can borrow the savings either directly or indirectly,
and it shows that Government will have available through
taxes and savings eleven billion dollars less than it
will spend for goods and services. Similarly, private
persons will have available for spending after their
savings eleven billion dollars more for goods and
services than there are goods and services available.

H.M.JR: It sounds like a phoney to me. (Laughter)
I mean, the fact they come out the same isn't an accident?

MR. LINDOW: No, that is the mirror of it. The

fact that Government doesn't take away that extra eleven

billion from individuals leaves it with them and leaves
us short.

H.M.JR: I see.
MR. LINDOW: That is the so-called gap.

Now, from this table we have picked up the savings

53

-5-

figures which add to twenty-six point five billions,
and we usually apply them--

(Discussion off the record.)
MR. LINDOW: So in the second table we take the
amount that we have to finance, which is thirty-nine

point eight billions, and we say that there are two
sources of funds, two broad sources. The first is the
savings and accumulations from current income during the

year, which we get from the first table. So much for

personal savings, so much for business savings, so much

for depreciation funds that aren't spent by corporations,
those items. We distribute them over the various types

of Government securities which we would sell. We would
do that by applying some of the savings as direct investments, individuals buying baby bonds, for example, and
also the indirect items where they might repay a bank
loan or they pay money to insurance companies, and they
have a net increase in their assets, and then they can
buy ordinary marketable issues, so we do that for each
type of Government security, make the best estimates we
can. Then we have a residual amount which has to be
borrowed as well, but we can't get it from savings because

there aren't any left. We have broken the residual

amount down into the funds we can get from idle balances.
H.M.JR: How much can you get from savings?

MR. LINDOW: Twenty-six and a half billions.
H.M.JR: And that is what we should get from savings?

MR. LINDOW: Yes, sir. No, that wouldn't be in

savings bonds, Mr. Secretary, because some of it we would

get through banks. If an individual pays off a bank

loan, then we could borrow the same amount from the bank.
H.M.JR: How much are you sure we could get through

War Savings Bonds?

MR. LINDOW: Seven billion two.

-6-

54

MR. BELL: That is from a non-inflationary source.

MR. LINDOW: That is right, that is from current

incomes. We show some others that would come from idle

balances. We have a billion and a half in that, giving

us eight points seven altogether, but you see the amounts
individuals would pay to banks - a fellow pays on a
housing mortgage, for example. If he pays off that
loan, then we can borrow from the bank the same.amount,

and it is just as good as though we got it directly

from the individual, because the bank deposits went
down when the fellow paid off his loan, and then the
bank can buy a bond from us and the deposits will
go back to just where they were before, and there has

been no inflationary effect, so out of the twenty-six
and a half billions total savings, we figure we can only
get in savings bonds a little over seven billion, but

we would get from banks eight billion.
(Mr. Sullivan entered the conference.)

(The Secretary held a telephone conversation with

Alex Budge of Honolulu.)

MR. SULLIVAN: I turned this over to Randolph Thursday. There was a telegram.

H.M.JR: I know. Tell Randolph, and yourself, put
a little heart in this. The main thing I am worried about

is the interest.

MR. SULLIVAN: There is quite a lot to it.
H.M.JR: All right, but sometime tomorrow. They
are worried over there, and they don't know when they are
going to be attacked again. You know. Haven't we got
the right to waive interest?
MR. SULLIVAN: No.

H.M.JR: Have you got to charge six?
MR. SULLIVAN: Sure.

H.M.JR: Under the law?

55

-7MR. SULLIVAN: If they are financially unable to
pay it, you can compromise the principal as well as the

interest, but that isn't the situation. There is a great

deal more in this thing.
H.M.JR: Is there?

MR. SULLIVAN: Yes, sir.

H.M.JR: He says it is the little fellows. Couldn't

the fellow that has to pay five thousand dollars or less
get the right to waive interest?
MR. SULLIVAN: You can always compromise for

inability to pay, sir.

H.M.JR: I know, but that keeps them on the-MR. SULLIVAN: I think it would be very bad to give

them a blanket waiver, because there are a great many of
those people who can afford to pay better than most

people in this country.

H.M.JR: Well, I haven't been in on it, but let's

have a little heart over reason.
MR. SULLIVAN: All right.

H.M.JR: I mean, I would approach it from that
angle, John.

MR. SULLIVAN: Well, it is very difficult not to

go overboard. I mean, you get enough hard cases to--

H.M.JR: No, h-e-a-r-t.

MR. SULLIVAN: I know, but I say it is difficult
not to go overboard in the direction in which you are
pointing.

H.M.JR: Well, I wouldn't mind going overboard on

interest. If it was a question of waiving interest, I

wouldn't worry about that, even though we favor a couple

-8-

56

of big fellows.
MR. SULLIVAN: Well, we will talk with you about it.
H.M.JR: I mean, that wouldn't worry me.

MR. SULLIVAN: We will talk with you about it.
H.M.JR: O.K.

MR. LINDOW: I wanted to explain that the twenty-

six point five billion that we estimated for savings,

as well as all the other estimates, which make all these
parts into a logical whole, is based on existing habit
patterns and pressures as we can see them at the time.

Now, if you had a lot of rationing and that resulted
in sterilizing some of the excess funds, it would result
in greater savings. If you stepped up the baby bond
program a great deal, that might result in greater savings and further increases, you see. So that the
twenty-six five is based on what we could see at the
time, rather than allowing for the future steps which

were not already in the cards as we could see them.

MR. BELL: Even advance of the taxes from last
year to this year might have some effect.

MR. LINDOW: That is right. Although we did take
into account the effect of the new tax bill which had
been stated in the President's budget.

MR. BELL: But not the withholding end of it?
MR. LINDOW: That is right. So adding together,
then, the twenty-six five from current savings and
thirteen three from what we might call inflationary
sources, you get the thirty-nine eight that you have to
get, and that includes borrowing from banks of eight
point eight that doesn't come from current savings.

That is, it isn't offset by reductions in loans or the

mere accumulation of bank balances.

57

-9MR. BELL: You will notice, Mr. Secretary, that
this provides for seventeen billion dollars borrowing
from the banks, in the next to the last column.
MR. LINDOW: This figure over here.

MR. BELL: Eight two comes from non-inflationary
sources, and eight eight comes from inflationary sources.
MR. LINDOW: We have the two new proposed securities

in here too. The new short-term one which we figure will
yield about three point eight billions and the new longterm one which would give about two point six billions.
Also tax notes which we figure at a billion two.

H.M.JR: Well, I will say this, George, this is

what I asked for anyway.

MR. HAAS: That is right. That is what you have

been asking for.
from.

H.M.JR: You remember, I said where can we get it

MR. HAAS: That is right.
MR. LINDOW: I might say a word about the estimates.
We talked to each of the members of the group that you
asked to have a representative appointed from each
agency. We went over the general approach and the

figures in this table and although there are differences
about individual figures here and there, nobody felt
that the conclusions you would draw from the table were

misleading.

H.M.JR: Would you publish this, Walter?
MR. STEWART: Well, if I published anything it would

be this first Table 1. Then it seems to me I would do
it at a time when I was making a drive for some particular way of meeting the gap, some combination of-H.M.JR: You wouldn't publish Table 2?

58

- 10 MR. STEWART: Those seem to me more - having a

larger margin of error because Table 2 carries out the
assumption that you are going to have the gap of eleven,
that you have got to meet it by some method. If one
said there is a gap of eleven, it has got to be met by

some method, such as withholding taxes or more rationing
or something else, what combination would meet it? This
poses the question and this undertakes to answer it.
H.M.JR: How about you, Jake?

MR. VINER: Why, I think it would be helpful to
publish one. It just possibly might result in suggestions
which would either improve the estimating or - it would
also be educational in terms of explaining to the public
that there is a gap that has not yet been solved. I
would agree with Stewart that I wouldn't publish two

quite in its present form. I would like to see two
published, too, but just reword it a little so it is
more like one, as a problem chart. This is still in
preliminary stage, because two really states - two is
one carried into application and broken down, but it is
two has not yet been reworded as much as one has been
reworded so as to indicate that it is a problem chart.
Don't you agree that if two were to be published, it
a

would be more of these-MR. LINDOW: Yes.
MR. VINER:

warning labels. I think I would be

inclined to have two published too, because if outside
people were going to get to work on that, two would give
them a good deal of help in testing one.

MR. LINDOW: The only difficulty I see in publish-

ing either table is that it might be misinterpreted.
Eleven billions - the eleven billion problem has to
either be solved, Mr. Secretary, in order to retain the

price assumptions we have made here, or the price rises

will be a lot larger than we have allowed for, in which
case the gap will be bigger than eleven billions.
H.M.JR: But Congress hasn't yet got very excited

-

59

- 11 -

about this price question. It isn't - isn't one of the

ways to get them excited to show them something like this?

MR. BELL: I think if you were making a drive for
additional taxes or something like that, it might be a
good time to bring it forward.
MR. VINER: I think that Stewart's point that one

and two oughtn't to be published unless there was to be
some suggestion to the public as to ways in which this
problem could be met - in other words, the Treasury

oughtn't to throw a fiscal problem to the public. The
Treasury has got to present programs to the public. It

presents a problem and it also has to present at least
a choice of solutions so that you would have to have in
mind either an intensification of the tax program or
withholding or forced saving or an intensified Defense
Savings Bond campaign or say, "This is going to be
Henderson's part.'

MR. HAAS: Henderson has already put out the con-

clusion of the table.

H.M.JR: Yes, but nothing like this.

MR. HAAS: But not the detail of it, and he - that
is all I had.
H.M.JR: What do you think, George?

MR. BUFFINGTON: I think it is very enlightening
to feel as Mr. Viner does, until you have got some suggested solutions, it might be a dangerous or unwise thing

to put it out.

H.M.JR: I think I will sort of try it out. Now,
where do we go on from here? Let me get the whole story
first. What is the next thing?
MR. BELL: The next step is the table that Mr. Murphy

will explain on the monthly financing. I don't think he
needs to go into detail. He can point out the main
figure there, the amount that will come from the member

60

- 12 banks of the Federal Reserve System. These two tables

don't jibe as to figures, because this covers fifteen

months - sixteen months, rather.

H.M.JR: Go ahead, Professor.

MR. BELL: Yes, sixteen months, whereas the other

one covers the fiscal year.
7

MR. MURPHY: This table is to show by months how

we might finance a program set out by the fiscal year
1943. We set out by estimating that during this time
we will get twenty-nine point nine of revenues, and I
think it would be apropos to mention in this connection
that in distributing these revenues between months in
accordance with the proposal of Mr. Paul and yourself
before the House Ways and Means Committee, you don't

get the seven billion dollars that the budget provides
for during the fiscal year. You get seven billion dollars
and more on an ultimate annual basis, but you don't get

it as provided in the budget during the fiscal year.

So we have assumed in this table, putting it on a budget

basis, that you will get seven billion dollars in the
fiscal year and have distributed on that basis, but in
order to realize the whole twenty-nine point nine, it
would require to that extent a tightening up in the
tax proposals to advance collections so that you would

get seven billion dollars during the fiscal year. That
gives us our first figure of twenty-nine point nine of

revenues to be received during the sixteen-month period.

During that period, defense expenditures will be
sixty-four point three, distributing the amount on a
constantly rising scale. Non-defense expenditure is
eight point five, giving us seventy-two point eight of
expenditures. You will have a budget deficit of fortytwo point nine, and you will need four point three in
addition for the corporations, giving the total amount
to be financed, forty-seven point two.
Now, we have estimated that you will be able to

realize a total of five point five from trust funds.

That includes the two billion dollars addition to the

61

- 13 Social Security program. And nineteen point one from
non-marketable securities, which include the two tap

securities. That will leave twenty-two point six to
be rasied in the market during this period, of which

we estimate that you can get three point two from

purchasers other than banks. You see, the initiation
of taps will in itself take out most of the purchasers
other than banks for your market securities. That will
leave nineteen point four to be purchased by banks, of

which we estimated that perhaps one point three could
be sold to non-member banks. That is assuming that they
take the same share of the increase that they have of

the present holdings of securities, and an additional
four point three could be sold to the banks merely replacing an equivalent amount of loans which will be
decreased as a result of restrictions on consumer

credit, priorities, allocations, et cetera. That will

leave thirteen point eight to be taken by the Federal

Reserve System and by the Federal Reserve System I mean
the System and its members combined.

If excess reserves will be maintained at their
present level, ignoring all factors other than the

increased reserve - amount of required reserves which

will occur merely from the member banks buying bonds and

thereby increasing their deposits, the Federal Reserve
Banks will have to purchase fifteen dollars and twenty-

four cents worth of securities for every dollar's worth

that is taken by the Federal and members together. If
they did that, the purchases by Federal would exactly
offset the increased required reserves that would occur
from the member banks purchasing the others. If that
were done, then during this sixteen months' period, the
member banks would purchase eleven point seven billion
and Federal would purchase two point one billion of
Governments.

MR. HAAS: That would increase reserves-

MR. BELL: In other words, existing reserves of
three billion plus and to sell to the member banks eleven
billion seven hundred million dollars to maintain those

- 14 -

62

reserves, the Federal Reserve banks would have to buy

two billion one hundred million dollars worth of securities
in the next fifteen months in the market in order to
supply those reserves.

H.M.JR: How about if they change those reserves?

MR. BELL: Well, that is the same effect.
MR. MURPHY: Another way of doing it.

H.M.JR: Is that an easier way? Doesn't that make
it mentally easier for the banks?
MR. MURPHY: You mean the requirements?

H.M.JR: I mean why can't they lower it.
MR. MURPHY: We have argued, and it would be better

to purchase securities in the market rather than lower
reserve requirements for these reasons. In the first
place, it permits a much finer, nicer adjustment than you

can get by changes in reserve requirements. You can
only change those very occasionally; and, in the second
place, when reserve requirements are reduced from the

point of view of an individual bank, it merely means
this. It has the same amount of money that it had before,
but a law has been changed. Less of it is required. On

the other hand, when the Federal Reserve System purchases

securities in the market, from the standpoint of any
individual bank, the only thing - impact on that bank

is that it is getting additional money. The clearings
are in its favor. Its money is piling up and it seems to
us that it is a far more effective psychological stimulus

to a banker to find money coming in through clearings
with his old requirements the same than to merely say,
"You have got the same money as before, but we will
merely cut down your requirements." It seems to have a
much more effective lever.

H.M.JR: Theoretically.
MR. MURPHY: I would say practically.

63

- 15 -

H.M.JR: Theoretically I think it is lovely. How

are you going to do this? On February 13 Guaranty Trust
in New York had one-third - one-quarter of all the excess
funds in New York, and they wouldn't buy any of our bonds
except fifteen million. Now, how are you going to have

that flow in there?

MR. MURPHY: Well, I would say two things.

H.M.JR: How are you going to control that?

it.

MR. HAAS: Explain the bills, Henry. That will do

H.M.JR: I mean, how are you going to do it? Here
is one bank that has one-quarter of all the excess reserves.

MR. MURPHY: Could I make two points there, Mr.

Secretary. In the first place, contrasting open market

operations with reduction in reserve requirements, which
do you think would have the most influence on your
Guaranty people?

If that three hundred million became four hundred
million, as far as they could see, merely because they
had gotten new money on one end, or if they simply
received a notice from the Federal Reserve bank, a

balance sheet stating exactly the same as it is, saying, "You know - your requirements are less. Now the
excess is five hundred instead of three hundred." If

And the second point, if we put out these tap
securities and out our long long market and our nonbanking market on a tap basis, then having segregated the
bank market, we will be able to meet the Guaranty Trust
Company half way. What Guaranty wants is short securities.

64

- 16 H.M.JR: That has got nothing to do with excess
reserves. The way you are going to do it, the Guaranty their excess cash will just increase by that much.
MR. BELL: Not necessarily, because the Federal

wouldn't necessarily have to buy it from them. It

could buy it from some other bank. The excess of the
Guaranty could remain the same. They could remain the
same so far as the Guaranty is concerned.
H.M.JR: Are they going to buy from banks? They

are going to buy from Government dealers.

MR. BELL: No, but if the Federal is buying in the

Government market and increasing the holdings of the

banks in general, the Guaranty isn't going to want to
increase its reserves. It has got plenty. The bank that
wants excess reserves will sell securities.
H.M.JR: They can do that now.

MR. BELL: That is right.
MR. MURPHY: Even the banks that sell no securities

will have their excess reserves increased.

H.M.JR: Henry, your plan is beautiful, but you
rely - I have got to sit back here and rely on the

Federal Reserve Board from day to day. On the other

hand, if they change their requirements, then it is done.
Otherwise, I have got to be after them every single day
to do something. If Mr. Eccles doesn't like it one day,
he doesn't do anything. I mean, I have got to rely on
them from day to day. On the other hand, they do this
thing in a lump sum and then - I mean, they just change

the reserves over night, and it is done.

MR. BELL: Well, we were hoping that if we could
carry through this whole program--

H.M.JR: I mean, I have got to sit here and at the

pleasure of Mr. Eccles, how much he is going to buy each
day. Then they get in an argument, and for one week

- 17 -

65

they may not do anything. I mean, if you had a thing

which was mechanical, like making the odds on a racing
board, how much money you put in, the odds automatically
went up and down, so that the thing disappeared auto-

matically through machinery, I would be for you. I mean,
if there was so much dropped in here and then you had to

multiply - a machine worked electrically and did the

multiplying on the thing, I would be for you, but that
happens to be Mr. Eccles, and -r. Eccle hasn't always
been for two and a half percent money.

MR. MURPHY: Well, could you secure a commitment with

Mr. Eccles, Mr. Secretary, by which until the commitment
was dissolved by mutual consent, and of course, it would

have to be endorsed by the multiplicity of authorities

they have over there, agree to keep excess reserves at a
stipulated level by open market operations?
MR. BELL: At a minimum.
MR. MURPHY: At a minimum figure.

MR. BELL: That was our hope.
H.M.JR: We have had agreements with them on buying

bonds and after he goes three days, he gets cold feet.

If you were dealing with - what do they call this, pari-

mutuel? If you were dealing with a pari-mutuel that you
stick to much money in, and up comes SO many figures-to

MR. HAAS: That is what you need. We were trying
work out some. We recognized the need for something

like that.

H.M.JR: I don't know how it works. I know you bet
SO much - I have seen it once in my life - and then the
thing changes. Well, if you had a formula that you

borrowed so much and automatically it went that much, it
would be fine, but you are up against this human element.
MR. HAAS: That is right.
H.M.JR: Let Viner and Stewart - they always are

friendly with the Federal Reserve. I don't mean to be

66

- 18 -

sarcastic. I mean that seriously. I mean, they are
always for using them. Would you be willing, if you

were Secretary of the Treasury, to have to rely on a day
to day - either of you - a day to day operation?
MR. VINER: At the present time you have no alter-

native. The question is, which form shall the reliance

take? If you can get an agreement from them to maintain
a minimum of excess reserves, I think you have gotten a
great deal. Now, I know from past experience that if
it were open market operations they might work so slowly

and so grudgingly that it wouldn't do the job.
H.M.JR: That is what I mean.

MR. VINER: But I don't see why you oughtn't to get
a firm agreement from them that they will maintain it they will not let excess reserves fall below a particular
minimum, and then I would say it is not a matter of very
great consequence to you which of their two methods they

use.

H.M.JR: Can you write a formula, what the minimum

should be?

MR. VINER: I would ask Dan Bell, and then I would

write it for you.

MR. BELL: We think the existing level is all right.

H.M.JR: Well, it is too tight.
MR. BELL: Well, it is all right if they are spread

properly.

H.M.JR: Yes, but you can't spread them, Dan. We

went right up against this thing last time.

MR. VINER: Well, I would say two things.
H.M.JR: It was too damn tough.
MR. VINER: I would have a minimum level and also a
minimum level for New York.

67

- 19 H.M.JR: What is the sense of having the thing so
tight that you are operating around with a billion eleven twelve hundred million and with one bank holding three

hundred million.

MR. VINER: New York is in a special position.
H.M.JR: I don't see what is to be gained by keeping

it so tight. It keeps interest rates hard, keeps short
money hard. I don't get it. They have got me in a vise.

What were you going to say, Jack?

MR. VINER: I would say that I would like to see

you get a pledge both as to the minimum over-all excess
reserves and also as to the minimum excess reserves in
the New York money market, because there is a special
situation in New York.
H.M.JR: Right.

MR. VINER: And I think that New York situation is
relatively going to get worse rather than better.
H.M.JR: I agree with you there.
MR. VINER: You have fundamental forces working to--

H.M.JR: Can they do that? Can they have "X" for
the country and "Y" for the area?
MR. VINER: They can do that by changing-MR. HAAS: Changing designations.

MR. VINER: They can do it partly that way. I
think they might also conceivably do it by doing their
open market buying in that form which New York buys

heavily rather than in which the country buys.

MR. BELL: In other words, they can sell short-term
securities, or buy short-term securities.
You see, if they buy short terms,
that tends to build up the New York excess reserves
MR. VINER:

rather than the country's. If they buy long terms, that

68

- 20 tends more to build up the country's excess reserves.

But, you can also reclassify New York. Is that the

correct term?

MR. HAAS: Reclassify, yes.

MR. BELL: I don't know that it is quite clear that
they can do it, but there is one view over there that

they can reclassify New York and Chicago, doing away

with central reserve cities which have a twenty-six percent reserve, and lower that to - making it twenty percent.
MR. MURPHY: Yes. It might not be legal, but there
is no one that could bring suit against them.

MR. HAAS: I think it looks a little funny.
MR. MURPHY: It looks funny. It doesn't seem to be

what the law contemplates.

H.M.JR: I don't want to go through the same situa-

tion I did on the last financing. There is no excuse
for having the thing as tight as it was in New York,

absolutely no excuse. What do you think, Walter Stewart?
MR. STEWART: Well, there seem to be two human

elements there. One is Eccles and the other is the

Guaranty Trust Company. Under either method, whether
you have changed excess reserves by changing classification or changing the minimum or buying in the open

market, any single bank can, if it wants to, run a
corner. If neither one guarantees against it, I should
have thought that what you wanted was a combination of
the two in some form which did deal with the New York
situation and with the Board both, but how you could
get more than the understanding, agreement, I don't

know. It is all you have got. There is no other way
that I know of, except for administering the funds of

a reserve system without agreement with the Federal
Reserve Board on open market operations or somebody, so,
I don't see how you escape it.

69

- 21 -

H.M.JR: Well, I am willing to modify my position
this much. If you people could work out a formula of

minimum excess reserves for the country, which is no
lower than the present one, and one for New York, which

is a more liberal one, because it is too tight, see.
The last one was too tight, Dan. I would want it at
least twenty-five percent more than it was in the last
financing. In other words, I want around - oh, I might
guess a billion and a half.

MR. BELL: How much did they lose the last time in

reserve requirements?

MR. MURPHY: I have got it here.

MR. BELL: A billion dollars, wasn't it? No, about

six hundred million.

MR. MURPHY: The last week before the increase,
excess in New York was one three forty-five, and the week

after the increase it was seven seventy-five, so it went
down about six hundred million.

MR. HAAS: And now it is up nearly a billion.
MR. MURPHY: Nine forty four the last week.

H.M.JR: Well, when the financing was a billion one

and there was three hundred million in one bank which was

frozen, it brought it down to eight hundred million, you
see. So, there was only eight hundred million affected
reserves--

MR. HAAS: A billion and a half is a good round figure.
H.M.JR: . which was too little. They had me by the

throat. I would like - I think you ought to have a billion
and a half in New York. Now, I don't - it is really no
concern of mine, if they would guarantee to maintain a
billion and a half in New York, and how much for the

country?

MR. BELL: A billion three.

70

- 22 MR. MURPHY: There is three point two there now.
The last week in which you had a bigger one in New York
was October twenty-second. Things looked pretty well

back there. I say the last week at which they had a

billion and a half in New York Was October twenty-seven.

I would rather like to be back there.

H.M.JR: Yes. And how much for the country then?
MR. MURPHY: Four six.

H.M.JR: How much is it now?

MR. MURPHY: For the country it is three two, and

New York--

H.M.JR: We had four billion for the country?
MR. MURPHY: Four, six fifty-five for the country on

October second.

H.M.JR: I wouldn't want to guess for the country.
But a liberal amount for the country and a billion and

a half minimum in New York, and they would maintain it
there.

MR. VINER: You say four for the country and one
point five for New York would mean an easy money market?
MR. STEWART: If you deal with New York-MR. BELL: New York has had something under a third
of the reserves.

MR. HAAS: A little over three outside New York

would be all right, I think.

H.M.JR: Well, around four, a minimum of four or

four and a half for the country and a billion and a half

for New York, and they agree to maintain it there.

MR. HAAS: I should think outside of New York, four
would be plenty, and then a billion and a half in New York
and you would have five five.

71

- 23 -

MR. VINER: No, four is over-all.

MR. HAAS: Over-all? Oh, that is too tight.
MR. VINER: Do you think it is too tight?
MR. HAAS: Yes.

H.M.JR: Well, you would want to think about it.
MR. HAAS: Yes.

MR. BELL: They will argue that it isn't tight

now with three to three and a half.

H.M.JR: Well, it is.
MR. HAAS: That is over-all.
H.M.JR: And they have no reason not to do it.
MR. MURPHY: Of course, it is the rise in short

money rates which permits a bank like Guaranty to hoard

three hundred million. If pickings were thinner, they
would have to invest their three hundred million in order

to make their dividend. That is the truth. It is interesting to note that Devine, in his annual review of the
bond market, gives as factors that he thinks will keep

the bond market strong the fact that increased taxes
and low money rates will force the banks to increase

their portfolios in order to maintain earnings.
MR. BELL: Well, that is true.
H.M.JR: Well, let me put it this way-MR. BELL: It was demonstrated last week.

this and taxes are the most important
things I have got. Why don't we continue this tomorrow
and let this other thing go, this Dean Acheson thing?
H.M.JR:

We will let that go tomorrow and let's continue this
discussion.

72

- 24 MR. BELL: You mean you won't have the big confer-

ence on Lend-Lease?

H.M.JR: No, I won't have it at all. I want to

keep on this subject. Now, could you, Dan - it is ten
minutes of four - could you sound out the Fed on this,

or do you want to first make up your mind what you want
before you see me again?

MR. BELL: Well, I would like for you to get the

complete picture first, because we have spent hours
with the Federal, and had a conference with them, you
remember, a week ago Friday, all day.

H.M.JR: But, supposing you just called up Eccles

and said, "Look, we have been talking with Mr. Morgenthau

and we have got to this point. How would you feel about

guaranteeing a minimum of excess reserves for the country

and for New York"?

MR. BELL: All right, I can do that.
H.M.JR: I mean, without naming any figures.
MR. STEWART. You can guess his answer, can't you?

MR. BELL: Oh, yes.

MR. STEWART: He would say, "I will keep the long-

term rate at two and a half percent if the Secretary will
say that is what he is for. If That is the answer.
MR. BELL: Well, he would say that, I am sure, but to
show you how they are thinking on this reserve situation
they had the Advisory Council meeting last week, and they
passed two resolutions. One was that it said the Federal

Advisory Council believes that in principle, at least,

reserve requirements should remain as stable as possible,
and that changes in such requirements should not be made

unless clearly required by the credit situation. The
Council is of the opinion that there is no present need

for a change in the reserve requirements.

73

- 25 H.M.JR: Well, to which I answer, nuts.
H.M.JR: I think they have anticipated some of our
requests, and gotten resolutions on the record.
MR. VINER: Well, we don't care whether they do it
by reserve requirements. Then, if the Counsil won't do

it, we will say, "It is up to you to do it by open mar-

ket operations.

H.M.JR: The Council has no authority. They are

purely advisory.

MR. BELL: That is all.
H.M.JR: They are purely advisory. They meet four
times a year, don't they?
MR. BELL: At least four.
H.M.JR: Well, Dan, what harm is there in calling
up Eccles?

MR. BELL: None.

H.M.JR: I mean, you haven't got much to do the
rest of the afternoon.

MR. BELL: That is right. (Laughter.) I will be
free after six.
H.M.JR: And simply say, "We have been talking of
going part way, and Mr. Morgenthau would like to know the way he is leaning is, he would like a guarantee
from the Open Market Committee that you people will keep the
excess reserves of the country at a definite minimum,
and the excess reserves for the City of New York at a
definite minimum."

MR. BELL: You don't want to say those minimums
yet?

H.M.JR: No, I think that these boys ought to work a

little bit more. It is too important.

- 26 -

74

MR. BELL: The first question he is going to ask
me is, "Are you willing to announce a program, agree
upon a program of financing?"

H.M.JR: Well, we are working on it.
MR. BELL: And state the pattern of rates?
H.M.JR: You tell him I can't make up my mind. To
me the excess reserve thing comes first.

MR. BELL: I will talk to him.
H.M.JR: Then, why don't we say we will meet again
at ten thirty tomorrow morning?

MR. BELL: All right.
H.M.JR: We will keep at this tomorrow, because I
haven't soaked this up yet.

MR. BELL: Well, this is a big problem. I think
this is just as important as your financing, which you
spent two or three days on.

H.M.JR: We will meet at ten thirty tomorrow, and

we will just keep at this, but I can't go any further
until I know that - will they do it. Don't you think,

gentlemen, that is a good way, I mean to get them to
guarantee that they will keep it at a minimum? And
then if they want to go the way Murphy says, O.K., and
if they want to do it some other way, O.K., as long as
they give me a memorandum.

MR. BELL: We don't care how they do it.
H.M.JR: As long as they keep it at a minimum.

MR. BELL: That is right. If we get some agreement

out on some minimum, that is what we would like to have.

MR. STEWART: Well, it makes a difference of two bil-

lion dollars in your securities. It is two billion dollars

- 27 -

75

that they wouldn't otherwise have if it is built up

in reserve requirements, because they will be carrying two billion more under your calculations here.
MR. BELL: Well, we would prefer that they would

do it in open market operations, but if they prefer the
other, I don't think we would fuss with them a lot.
MR. STEWART: That is a large figure.
less.

H.M.JR: You mean they would have to buy that much
MR. STEWART: They would buy that much more under

an open market operation than they would under a change
in the reserve requirements.

H.M.JR: And they wouldn't have to do it under the

change in reserve?

MR. HAAS: No.

H.M.JR: So that would be an argument for my orig-

inal case.

MR. STEWART: An argument for open market as against

just changing reserve requirements.

H.M.JR: Why should they want more securities?
MR. STEWART: Well, I don't know whether they want

more or not. There are some earnings in them, but from

the standpoint of the Treasury, if it is an equal choice,

I should have thought you might rather have them buy the

securities than change the reserve requirements. It places

two billion dollars in securities.

MR. VINER: Of course, there is this point. On the

open market operations they can do them - they can dribble

them on the market day after day. If they used the
reserve requirement thing, they have to do some forecasting, and they may overdo it, and they may underdo it.

76

- 28 -

H.M.JR: I agree.
MR. VINER:
... so that if you get a guarantee and
it is an absolute guarantee that on no day are excess

reserves to be permitted to fall below four billion,

that means they will have to use open market operations

to a substantial extent because they can't - the other

way is always a guess, always uncertain.

MR. MURPHY: It wouldn't look good to lower reserve

requirements twice.

H.M.JR: But, also you agree with me that before I
do anything about any rates or anything else I ought to

have such an agreement?

MR. VINER: Yes, except I think it would be legitimate on their part to say, "No, we can't undertake to
maintain these as minimum reserves without knowing what
you are going to do. "

MR. BELL: That is what they will say, but it is

part--

MR. VINER: That is part of a program which would

be jointly worked out that - would they be willing to
make that one item in the program. I think that is the
way to put it, not, are they willing now.
agreeMR.
to it.BELL: That is the way they will want it if they
MR. V INER: And I think they are right, don't you?
MR. BELL: Yes, I do.

H.M.JR: All right, we will do some more tomorrow.

James explained
by Mr. Murphy in

4th

10

77

INITIAL PRELIMINANT ESTIMATES

STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL

Table I

Analysis of the Diseguilibrium Implicit in the Estimated Flow of Goods and Services and the Estimated Application of Incomes to Various Uses
Fiscal Year 1943

(Based on A national income of $115 billions and a rise in the cost of living of about 10% from December 1941)

(In billions of dollars)
Flow of Goods and Services

A. To be purchased by Government
1. Defense expenditure
a. Total

b. Less: Prepayments, land and
offshore, etc
C. Net defense expenditure

Application of Incomes made available
(Under existing habit patterns and pressures)
A. Available for Government use:
1. Assured Taxes:

56.6

a. Existing business taxes 1
b. Existing personal taxes
C. New business and personal taxes 2/
d. Total taxes

2.5
54.1

2. Other public expenditures:
A. Federal

b. State and local
C. Total other public expenditure

16.7
6.8

7.0

30.5

2. Potential - For buying Government

6.1

securities, directly or indirectly

7.8

(Unabsorbed saving, depreciation
and other allowances):
a. Unabsorbed personal saving 3/

13.9

3. Total Government

68.0

b. Social security net accumulation
C. Unabsorbed business saving 4,

d. Reserves for existing taxes
e. Reserves for new taxes
f. Unabsorbed depreciation and other
allowances 5A
6. Total

15.5
4.0
.3

1.7
0.5

4.5
26.5

3. Total income available for Government use
B. To be purchased by private persons:

B. Available for private use:
1. Income absorbed by private capital

1. Private capital expenditures:

a. Plant and equipment
b. Inventories:
(1) Increase in volume -.5

5.5

expenditures

a. Absorbed depreciation and other
allowances 1/ 5/
b. Absorbed business saving 4
C. Absorbed personal saving
d. Total

(2) Increase in value. 1.5

(3) Total
C. Foreign balance
d. Residential housing construction.
c. Total
2. Consumption goods and services:
a. Durables.
b. Non-durables and services
c. Total

57.0

1.0

WV

-.5

4.5
1.5
.5

6.5

.5

6.5

2. Income available for consumer spending

68.0

3. Total income available for private use

79.0

3.5

64.5

3. Total private
C. National Gross product plus inventory revaluations

85.5

74.5

142.5

C. National gross product plus inventory revaluations

142.5

February 4. 1942

Not included in national income concept used by Department of Commerce.

In estimating personal and business saving, the revenue to be obtained from new taxes is arbitrarily divided 1/3 each from (1) corporation income and
excess profits taxes, (2) excise taxes, and (3) individual income, estate and gift taxes.
Total personal saving, exclusive of social security net accumulation, is estimated at $16.0 billions.
Total business saving is estimated at $1.8 billions.
Total depreciation and other allowances is estimated at $9.0 billions.
Note:

There is a disequilibrium implicit in the above figures, amounting to $11.0 billions. resulting from the discrepancy between the goods and
services the Government requires and the income available for Government use. This disequilibrium may be solved by transferring income now
estimated to be available for private use so that it becomes available for Government use. This may be accomplished by increasing taxes,
or by increasing saving, either by voluntary or forced means, or by the use of direct price and rationing controls. Unless the disequilibrium
is solved by changing the application of incomes, however, 11 will solve itself by changing the flow of goods and services as a result of

price rises which will occur in addition to the 10 percent rise in the cost of living allowed for. This will in turn cause Government

expenditures
to increase in order to purchase the same volume of goods and services and so further complicate the problem of raising funds to
pay
for the expenditures.

78
Table II

Estimated Sources of Funds to Finance Budgetary Deficit and Federal Agencies Financed with Treasury Funds
Fiscal year 1943

(In billions of dollars)
Distribution between types of Government securities
New

bonds

to

Series

:

Total
amount

absorb

E. F. deferred
business

and

expen-

0

ditures

Marketable securities

New

security
to absorb
long-term
non-

Special
Tax

notes

market
funds

issues

:

Sources of funds

Savings security

Sold
to

:individ- banks and :insurance

funds

: insurance companies:

uals

Subtotal

Sold

other than : to

to

trust

Sold to

corporations Sold

companies

for

marketable

to

banks

securities

1/

1. Current savings and accumulations
estimated on the basis of existing
habit patterns and pressures
(based on a national income of

$115 billions and a rise in the
cost of living of about 10% from
December 1941)

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

.2

.1

4.0

1.9

.2

.2

4.0

-

.1

.3

.2

.9

-

1.1

-

3. Business saving

7.0

4.0

6.3

-

2. Social security trust funds

15.5

-

1. Personal saving

.1

.1

4. Corporate tax accruals in excess of tax payments:
-

-

-

-

-

-

.2

-

-

-

.2

-

.5

.4

1.1

1.1

-

-

-

(b) New taxes

1.7

-

(a) Existing taxes

.3

.3

5. Excess of bookkeeping charges

for depreciation and similar
items over actual outlays

1.2

.2

-

4.5

.2

2.9

2.7

-

therefor

6. Net surplus of State and local
-

-

-

-

1.5

1.2

.2

1.2

-

3.0

2.6

4.0

.8

-

7.2

-

26.5

-

accumulations

10.7

8.2

1.9

.4

.2

-

7. Total from current savings and

-

revenues over expenditures

11. Funds available only at the cost

of an additional price rise:

1. Funds derived by converting old
idle balances into active balances through purchase of Government securities:
-

-

-

-

1.2

1.4

.4

-

-

39.8

8.7

3.8

2.6

1.2

4.0

.2

-

-

1, Includes securities sold to Federal Reserve Banks.

-

-

1.5

8.8

-

-

13.3

8.8
8.8

8.8

.4

1.9

17.0

19.5

-

8.5

III. Total borrowing according to the
budget (but this will have to be
increased as a result of prices
rising even higher than allowed for
If borrowing listed under Group II
is used)

4

-

3. Total under Group II

1.5

-

2. Residual balance which will
have to be borrowed from banks.

4.5

-

ances

-

-

(c) Total from old idle bal-

-

-

1.4

.3

-

1.2

.1

-

.2

-

1.5

1.0

-

(a) By individuals
(b) By corporations

March 5. 1942

79

STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL
Estimated Means of Financing the Deficit Monthly, March 1942 through June 1943

(In billions of dollars)

1943

1942
March

A Net budget receipts
, Budget expenditures
1. Defense
2. Non-defense

3.0

2.5

c Net budget deficit

-5

.5

2.8

3.0

July

2.4

August

.8

.7

3.2

3.5

3.4

1.0

1.0

2.8

2.9

3.7

3.9

4.1

4.3

.9

4.5

May

1.0

1.0

4.9

29.9

4.9

5.1

5.3

5.4

64.3

4.7

.6

4

4.2

4.5

5.1

5.5

4-4

5.0

3.9

5.0

3.9

-3

2.9

3.5

3.8

2.9

3.1

3.4

4.1

3.2

1.3

2.2

1.5

.3

-3

.3

.4

3.2

.5

.2
-4

5.6

5.7

4.6

4-7

.2

.2

.2

.2

.2

-3

4.0

4.3

2.4

3.8

3.7

1.6

3.4

3.5

1.9

3.3

.3

.3

4.9

4.8

.5

1.0

.2
.6

47.2

5.5

-5

7

.4

-5

1.2

-3

.8

.6
.6

.6

.6

.8

-4

.3

.7

-4

-3

-

-

1.0

2.4

2.2

-4

.2

.2

.8

.8

.7

.2

.2

2.0

.5

1.4

1.7

1.5

.2

.2

.6

1.5

.3

-3

.6

.3

.3

4.4

-3

.3

.3

3.0

.1

-4

1.4

1.5

2.2

1.7

.8

1.2

.1

.1

.1

.2

.2

.2

.2

1.6

11.0

.7

.7

.2

.2

.2

.2

.2

..1

.8

.8

.5

.5

.7

1

2.1

1.6

2.1

1.8

.4

.2

1.6

1.6

3.0

2.3

19.1

.6

22.6

-3

.9

.2

.2

.2

.2

1.5

2.0

1.3

.2

.2

1.0

1.9

1.6
.1

19.4

.1

1.3

-

.2

.2

3.2

.2

2.1

2.8

4

.7

.1

.2

.2

.2

.2

-

-3

4

.4

-5

-5

.1

.6

.5

.1
.1

.2

-

.1

.1

-

-

.1

Sold to names banks offsetting
an equal reduction in bank loans.
4.

4.3

1.4

-4

.4

Sold to non-member banks
o

-4

42.9

.2

.6

3. Marketable securities sold to COMMETcial banks and Federal Reserve Banks

a Total

-4

1.2

.3

.5

other than commercial banks and Federal
Reserve Banks

.5

.5

c. Marketable securities:

1. Total marketable securities
2. Marketable securities sold to investore

.2

72.8

.1

5. Total non-marketable securities

.3

.4

1. Tax notes
2 Savings bonds

3 Proposed new short-term security
4. Proposed new long-term security

.2

-

4. Securities sold to Government trust funds
B. Non-marketable securities

b

.6

.1

.2

8.5

6.1

.3

.1

II. Meets of financings

.7

.5

3.9

-5

Total

5.2

3.4

3.4

.2

.7

.4

June

1.3

.4

.5

.7

April

March

.4
-5
.4
.6

-3

D Net outlays of Government corporations
1. Total to be financed

May

.7

3.2

3 Total

April

November

October

September

February

January

5

1. Amount to be financed

June

December

.3

.4

4.3

-3

.3

.3

.3

.3

-3

.3

.4

-4

.4

.2

.1

Sold to Federal Reserve Banks
and member banks thereby increas.

ing their net loans and investments

(1) Monthly
(2) Cumulative

.2

1.9

.2

2.1

.4

1.5

1.1

5.3

4-9

6.8

7.9

10.2

11.0

9.9

8.5

.8

1.1

1.4

.6

.9

4.0

2.9

2.5

.4

1.1

.4

2.2

1.6

-2

13.8

12.4

14.0

13.8

13.8

III Purchases of Government securities by the Federal
Reserve Banks required if excess reserves are to
be held unchanged (except for changes caused by
factors other than member bank purchases of
Government securities and decreases in loans
outstanding):

1. Monthly.
2. Comulative

1.6

.2

1.8

-4

.3

1.3

2.1

.5

2.5

4.2

3.4

4.5

7.2

6.7

5.8

1.2
8.4

.2
.2

.2

9.3

.2

.3
.8
.6
.3

.4

1.0

1.2

8.6

1.4

-.2

11.7

11.9

11.7

11.7

.1

2.1

.2

.1

.1
.1

.2
.1

1.9

10.5

.9

.9

-3

,

2. Cumulative
B. Purchases by Federal Reserve Banks:

.8

.2

.9

increasing their net loans and investments
1. Monthly

7

A. Purchases by member banks thereby

1.3

1.5

1.7

1.6

1.9

2.1

2.1

2.1

-7

.4

March 7. 1942

Treasury Department, Division of Research and Statistics.

cc - Mr. Sullivan
80
March 9, 1942
3:13 p.m.
HMJr:

Hello.

Operator:

Hello, Mr. Budge.

HMJr:

Hello.

Operator:

Go ahead, please.

Alexander
Budge:

Hello.

HMJr:

Hello,

B:

Good morning, sir.

HMJr:

Hello, Mr. Budge.

B:

Good morn - good afternoon, rather.

HMJr:

It's all right.

B:

HMJr:
B:

We've been hoping that it would be possible
to have some action on the income tax relief
for certain cases that will come up during the
course of the next few months.
Yes.

This with particular reference to the rate of
interest which has a very definite effect in

an area such as ours from the standpoint of

morale.
HMJr:
B:

Yes.

Now, I'm not talking about it from the corporate
angle or my own situation at all.

HMJr:

I understand.

B:

We have, for instance, in this company, we have

about three million and a half due, which is
all reserved for.

HMJr:

Yeah.

81

-2B:

HMJr:
B:

But sometime ago Mr. Burlew of Interior and
Mr. John Sullivan of Treasury had some discussions on this subject.
Yeah.

The thought was to put the Internal Revenue
Department in a position where they could
review each case

HMJr:
B:

Yes.

and might have some discretionary power
to postpone the payment and also either waive

the interest or if interest was to be charged
it would be at a nominal rate
HMJr:
B:

Yeah.

the thought being to avoid discouragement,
which we have a little of around here now, as
you might imagine.

HMJr:
B:

Yes.

No blanket action would be necessary. Now, in
this connection, I thought there ought to be a
source of - possibly a loaning agency.

HMJr:

Yes.

B:

It seems to me that they are not in a position
to make loans for the payment of taxes except

under rather restricted conditions until after
further legislation.
HMJr:
B:

Yeah.

It is deemed that you'll appreciate that their

low collateral is abnormally depressed on the
stock market.

HMJr:
B:

Yes.

It would seem that if a corporation could be
run by Treasury that could loan at a nominal

82

-3rate of interest on a collateral of Hawaiian
securities, based let's say on eighty per cent
of the average market for two or three years,
with some respect for low evaluation will -

such a corporation if loaning only payment of
taxes, would be a definite relief and would
straighten out the tax situation in many cases.

In other words, now the collateral is 80 depressed that the normal business will be unable
to make plane that will be satisfactory.
HMJr:

Well, now, Mr. Budge - hello.

B:

Yes.

HMJr:

Can you wait just one second. I just sent for
Mr. Sullivan. Let me just ask him a question,
will you?

B:

What did you say?

HMJr:

Hello.

B:

Yes.

HMJr:

Just wait one minute. Can you hold on one

minute?
B:

Yes.

HMJr:

Just wait one minute.

B:

Yes.

HMJr:

Hello.

B:

Yes.

HMJr:

B:

Mr. Budge, I'll talk this thing over with
Mr. Sullivan - hello - and I'11 get you off a
cable the first thing in the morning.
Yes. I don't think, Mr. Morgenthau, it isn't
a matter of rush as much as it is to have someone
think of it definitely in point not of the
dollars to be waived - lost in any way, but

-4 -

83

towards the number of people that will be
affected in the smaller brackets; and it seems
to me an orderly review of the whole question
would probably enable some legislation that
would not in any way be costly to the Government but would be of very definite help to a
big section of our people.
HMJr:

B:

Well, naturally, we're all here interested,
and I haven't got into it myself
Yes.

but I will talk with Mr. Sullivan

HMJr:
B:

HMJr:

Thank you very much.

and some time tomorrow we'll get you off
a cable and tell you what we can or cannot do.

B:

Fine.

HMJr:

Now, Mr. Budge, what's your address in Honolulu?

B:

Just Alexander Budge, Honolulu, will get me

all right.
HMJr:

What will?

B:

Alex Budge.

HMJr:

I don't hear you.

B:

Alex. A-1-e-x.

HMJr:
B:

Oh, Alex Budge.

Yes. You might say Merchant Street. I guess
they have to have an address on it.

HMJr:

What street?

B:

Merchant.

HMJr:

I don't get that.

B:

Merchand. M-e-

84

-HMJr:
B:

Merchant. Yeah, Merchant Street.
Yeah.

HMJr:

Well, we'll get it off to you sometime tomorrow.

B:

Thank you very much.

HMJr:

I don't know what we can do, but Mr. Sullivan
says that the delegate King has been in touch

with him.
B:

Yes, I know that he had been.

HMJr:

Yeah.

B:

I thought it had been more or less - they were

HMJr:

losing interest in it and it seemed
No, no, we're not losing interest.

B:

Fine. Well, thank you very much.

HMJr:

All right. We'11 see what we can do.

B:

Earl wanted to be remembered to you.

HMJr:

Thank you. Remember me to the General.

B:

All right.

HMJr:

Good-bye.

B:

Good-bye.

3/9/42

85
mis material was used by HM, Jr at his

press conference today together with material
on average family which is attached to read-

ing copy of Tax Statement of 3/3. It was

HM, Jr's an swer to New York Board of Trade.

86

TREASURY DEPARTMENT
INTER OFFICE COMMUNICATION

DATE March 9, 1942
TO

FROM

Secretary Morgenthau
Mr. Kuhn

A single person earning $750 a year pays a total

of $130 in Federal, state and local taxes of all
kinds. That amounts to 17.3% of his income. It
means that he would have to work more than eight

weeks just to pay his taxes.

A married person with no dependents, earning
$1500 a year, pays an estimated total of $250 a

year in Federal, state and local taxes of all
kinds. This is 16.7% of his income. Here again
he must work more than eight weeks in order to pay
his annual tax bill.
These estimates are based on Federal taxes

for the fiscal year 1942, and state and local
taxes for the year 1941.

87
ESTIMATED AVERAGE FEDERAL, STATE AND
LOCAL TAX BURDEN ON A SINGLE PERSON WITH A $750
INCOME AND ON A MARRIED COUPLE WITH A

$1500 INCOME 1

TOTAL TAX BURDEN

:

:
:

AMOUNT

PERCENT OF INCOME

:
:

Single : Married: Single : Married
person : couple : person : couple

:

:

$750 : $1,500 : $750 : $1,500

income : income : income : income

:

Federal

52

97

6.9%

6.5%

State

31

61

4.1

4.1

Local

47

92

6.3

6.1

Total

130

250

17.3

16.7

Treasury Department, Division of Tax Research

On the basis of estimated fiscal year 1942 Federal and
estimated fiscal year 1941 State and local tax collections.

1

88

The New York Times.
MAR 10 1942
so wide has become thereicavage

SAYS TAX EXEMPTS

between the Treasury and the

'CAN'T STAND MORE'

that Mr. Morgenthau contemplates

Ways and Means Committee over
the tax question that it was said

another appearance before the

committee to make an even strong-

MorgenthauOpposes Lowering

of Limits, Asserts Poor Pay
Heavily in Hidden Levies
AGAINST A SALES IMPOST

er plea that the group now exempt
be left free from direct taxes.
To explain his attitude Mr. Mor-

genthau read today from the

Treasury study, a study which he
said indicated that a single person
earning $750 a year (the present

lower limit on taxable salaries)
paid $130 in Federal, State and
local taxes of all kinds. This was

But Ways and Means Majority
Favors One-New York Trade

17 3-10 per cent of his income and
required eight weeks' work to earn.
A married man with no dependents

Board Assails Exemptions

and earning $1,500 paid $250. which
was 16 7-10 per cent, or the equiva-

tent of eight weeks' labor.
By HENRY N. DORRIS
Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES.

WASHINGTON, March 9-The
probability of a fight to the finish
between the Administration and
Congress over the question of subjeeting persons now exempt under
the income tax laws to direct levies

or a general sales tax was heightened by two developments today.

The first was a statement by
Secretary Morgenthau, at his press

conference, reiterating the Administration's stand against either

removing exemptions on income
taxes or imposing a general sales

tax. Mr. Morgenthau read from
an analysis completed recently by

Treasury Department experts
showing that persons who did not

earn enough to be subject to the
income tax were already paying

heavily in "hidden" levies, and

"After seeing these figures,"
said Mr. Morgenthau, "I came to
the conclusion that we would not
be justified in lowering exemptions

or imposing a general sales tax.
Families and individuals below the
exemption level are making a fair
enough contribution at this time
to the government.

"Until we have exhausted all

other sources of revenue and closed

all loopholes we should not add any
burdens to this group."

The Secretary said this group
did not have enough purchasing

power to cause inflation.
The Ways and Means Committee

continuing its hearing on the proposal to raise $7,610,000,000 in new

revenue, heard M. L. Seldman,

chairman of the taxation commit-

tee of the New York Board of

Trade, urge that income tax exemp-

tions be removed.

Because of these exemptions,
Mr. Seidman said, three-quarters of

American families, about half the

commented that "this group can't

number of wage-earners. and more

stand more taxes."

not subject to direct taxes. He

The second development was the

revelation. through an unofficial

poll of the House Ways and Means

Committee, that a majority now

favored a sales tax in some form-

either at the manufacturing or the

retail level-and that this group

than half the national income are

would not lift exemptions for surtax purposes, but would substitute
a flat 10 per cent normal tax for
the 4 per cent now levied.
A general sales tax was opposed
by Mr. Seidman, as was the Treas-

ury's proposal to require joint in-

reached this conclusion through a
belief that all wage-earners should

come tax returns for married cou-

penses.

for corporations were too high.

contribute toward the war ex-

ples. Mr. Seidman also held that
the proposed excess-profite_tates

89
March 9, 1942
4:38 p.m.
Leon

Henderson:

Hello, Henry.

HMJr:

Leon.

H:

Yeah.

HMJr:

How are you?

H:

HMJr:

Pretty good.

Leon, I just had a press conference, and they
went after me on this question of lowering
the exemptions of $1500 and $750.

H:

HMJr:

Uh huh.

Well, we have our own figures on the amount of
taxes which this group use which we gave them.
Then it came on to these tables which we got

from your Hildegarde Kneelan
H:

HMJr:

H:

HMJr:

Yeah.

which shows that until you get above
twelve hundred and fifty dollars, an American
family doesn't save anything.
Uh huh.

And - oh, before I went on the Hill, Roy Blough
got from somebody in their office permission to
use those figures. Hello.

H:

Yes.

HMJr:

And I just wanted to tell you I told them where
I got them from.

H:

HMJr:

H:

Uh huh.

And if they come over there and 80 forth and
80 on, I hope that you'll hold up my hand.

All right. Have you got a - when you get your

90

-2transcript, this part, will you send it over,
80 that '11 just hit it right on the nose

right away.
HMJr:

I'11 have that done right away - it ought to

maybe take about an hour does it take to do
it?

H:

HMJr:

All right. We won't say anything tonight.

Well, I'll get it over there, and - but, of

course, from our standpoint, it's very important
and your people have been very helpful but I
wanted to let you know that I went to town - I
did the same thing once before, and there wasn't

a single paper carried it when I testified. I

gave them the same figures when I went up Tuesday,

and Paul is sitting here, and he says he gave
the same figures, and no newspaper carried it

H:

HMJr:

H:

HMJr:

in the United States, so I've tried it once more,
and it's pretty, I think, sinister the fact that
there isn't a newspaper that carried those.
(Laughs) They' '11 probably carry it this time.
And you'll see that I told them that the people
that wanted to lower them are the people that
don't want to pay the taxes themselves.

Uh huh.

But I'11 get you a transcript and get it over;
and if there's anything in there that you can't

put your name to, before you throw me down, give
me a call.

H:

Yeah. I will.

HMJr:

Thank you.

H:

All right, Henry.

HMJr:

Thank you.

TREASURY DEPARTMENT

finished

91

INTER OFFICE COMMUNICATION

DATE March 9, 1942
TO

FROM

Mrs. Klotz
Mr. Morgenthau

Please be sure to get the clipping from Sunday's
PM on Arthur Krock and Wayne Chatfield Taylor. attached
Please look up Wayne Chatfield Taylor's letter

of resignation from the Treasury. I would like to

see it. (See diary book to which this memo is
attached)

92
France Has had "immobilizing effects on
French assistance to Germany.

Vichy Finds
Pal in Krock

One is James Clement Dunn, political
adviser on European affairs, who was leader

of the pro-Franco bloc in the Department
during the Spanish Civil War. The other is
a minor bureaucrat, Samuel Reber, in charge
of

Times' Bureau Chief Only
Correspondent to Detect 'Doubt'
Over RAF's Paris Raid

mous
ment stateon

mas St.

faEuropean authorship "the French affairs. of the desk" original To Reber in draft the is division of attributed the of

Day issued "so-called in by protest the Free Department against French seizure Navy" Christ- of

Pierre and Miquelon by the Free French.

By I. F. STONE
PM's Fureau

The other Department official present was
Wallace Murray, in charge of the Division
newspaperman to discover that RAF bomb of Near Eastern Affairs.
Only other American officials present at
ings of Paris had created "doubt and dis

WASHINGTON, Mar. 7.-The

only

in the U. S. A. was Arthur Krock the dinner were Jesse Jones's righthand

sent"

head of the New York Times bureau in man, Under Secretary of Commerce Wayne
Washington.
Chatfield-Taylor, and Colonel Bentley Mott.
The only newspaperman among the guests former U. S. military attaché at Vichy.
the first formal dinner given here by the Krock, with isolationist Boake Carter, and
Vichy French Embassy Feb. 27 was Arthur
the New York Enquirer (whose publisher.
Krock.
Hearst-pal William Griffin, is under subLess interventionist than his paper, per pena by the Federal Grand Jury investigatsistently anti-New Deal, Krock frequently ing Nazi propaganda), is reported in this
sees Vichy's ambassador, Gaston Henry week's issue of the Nation as carrying on a
Haye.
minor campaign to create a wartime job
"Doubt and dissent," Krock discovered for Joseph P. Kennedy.
Great
Britain
Times editorial-page column of Mar. 6. Kennedy, as ambassador
'seem to have been invoked by the RAF was among the Munich-minded men
at

his

to

bombings of the industrial environs of
Paris."

Krock himself concluded by saying that

"total war calls for total war and
declaring "if the United Nations spare any
war industrial area, the enemy, as he has
proved, will not."
But on his way to those conclusions, the
hief correspondent of the Times made some
"exclusive" discoveries:

1 The degree of American disapproval
worth noting.
I"In the United States signs were to be
discerned among strong supporters of the
off Axis war of regret mingled with dis-

if

approval.

. Suggestions that the bombing might
lestroy the immobilizing effects on French
assistance to Germany of this government's
policy toward Vichy.

A Job for Kennedy
Source of these scoops may be indicated

the list of other guests at the sociallyVichy Embassy.

Of the three guests from the State Dept.
are prominently identified with the be-

if that American economic aid to Vichy

Arthur Krock of the New York Times
who discovered that the bombing
Paris had created "doubt and dissent
in the U. S. A.' Photo by Wide World

93

TREASURY DEPARTMENT
INTER OFFICE COMMUNICATION

DATE March 9, 1942
TO

FROM

Mrs. Klotz
Mr. Morgenthau

Will you invite General Marshall to have lunch

with me on Thursday, please.

Marshall ancepted

94

March 9, 1942
Harold Graves

Secretary Morgenthau

The meeting which we had scheduled for Wednesday

for your staff, I would like to have at 9:15 on

Thursday.

O.K. -

95

March 9, 1942

Dear Randolph:

Many thanks for sending me

that quotation from the President's

recent radio talk. I agree with you
that it is a fine statement and that
it should be used more widely. It

expresses the present situation
exactly.

Sincerely,
(Signed) Henry

Mr. W. Randolph Burgess,

55 Wall Street,

New York, N. Y.

file n.m.c.
FK/egk

Copies a thoupan

96
"NEVER BEFORE HAVE WE HAD

SO LITTLE TIME
IN WHICH TO DO SO MUCH".

President Roosevelt.

(

97
W. RANDOLPH BURGESS
55 WALL STREET
NEW YORK

March 7, 1942

Dear Henry:

There was one line in the President's recent address
which deserves wider use than it has received. A nephew of mine,
working for International Business Machines, picked it up and has

circulated it in the form of the attached card. I quoted it the
other day in a speech and have been surprised that more people

have not picked it up.
Sincerely yours,

Randager

Hon. Henry Morgenthau, Jr.

Secretary of the Treasury
Washington, D.C.

98
TREASURY DEPARTMENT
INTER OFFICE COMMUNICATION

DATE March 9, 1942
TO

FROM

Mrs. Klotz
Mr. Morgenthau

Please have somebody go through my files.
Sometime during the last two years we had a meeting in

my office at which Mr. Batt was present. I have a

vague recollection that he was arguing we had enough

steel production. I know that he and I got into quite

an argument. I would like to see what it was about.
Thank you. (this is being Lone)

ach white 7/3/40
Frished -

99
CIC

CONGRESS OF INDUSTRIAL ORGANIZATIONS
1106 CONNECTICUT AVENUE, NORTHWEST

WASHINGTON, D. C.
TELEPHONE DISTRICT 3582
Office of

March 9, 1942

THE PRESIDENT

The Secretary of the Treasury

Washington, D. C.

Dear Mr. Secretary:

I refer to your letter of January 28, with regard to your

visit to the Detroit area.
I have held your letter so that I might send you the enclosed copy of our paper, "Steel Labor". You will note the
picture on Page 8.

I am pleased to note the reaction to the work you are doing
in promoting the sale of stamps and bonds. You may be assured

that anything we can do to assist in this great work will be
done.

With every good wish, I am
Sincerely yours,

President, Congress of Industrial
Organizations

"

100

SWOC MEMBERS DONATE DAY'S PAY TO U.S.

See Page 3

"STEEL ABOR

THE VOICE OF THE STEEL WORKERS ORGANIZING COMMITTEE-C.I.O.
Indianapolis, Ind., February 27, 1942

Val. VH

No.

SWOC ASKS VOTE AT U.S. STEEL PLANTS;
UNION SECURITY, $1 RAISE DEMANDS IN
'LITTLE STEEL' GO TO WAR LABOR BOARD
SWOC REVEALS
PLAN TO BOOST

15 Largest Steel Firms Report $28,497,000 Profit Increase

'BIG STEEL' PACT

In 1941 An Average Gain of 11.4 Per Cent Despite

10 BE REOPENED

Wage Raise Forced by SWOC Last April
$300,000,000

STEEL OUTPUT

present

the

the

figure will

United

figure
in

Nation Losing 2,000,000
Tons Yearly by Alleged

Government Board Enters
*Little Steel' Picture to
Break Deadlock

profits

Scrap Shortage

FOR PAY RAISES

11.4

1941

for

the

SWOC Gives $14,000 to

FDR Birthday Fund
David J. McDonald SWOC

Paralysis
this
for

the

drive
is

cele-

Roose.

SWOC Awarded Raise
At American Can Co.

STEEL INDUSTRY PROFITS
Financial Statements of Fifteen Leading Steel Firms
Show How Profits Climb

13 principal in the United States
of the nation, follow for the
Year

Year

$116,019,000

Steel Corporation
Tube

Company

16,124,000
14,824,000

Company

8,506,000

5,685,000

America

7,439,000

6,230,000

Corporation

5,062,000

3,722,000

2,193,000

709,000

of

Corporation
Wire Corporation
Steel

7,642,000

11,000,000

Corporation

1,223,000
1,815,000

1,295,000

2,332,000

Other

making

of country

capacity

STEEL

Page Two

Page Three

$500,000 WON IN AMERICAN CAN PACT

Reading, Pa., Locals Donate One Day's Pay to U.S.

EMPLOYES GET
10-CENT RAISE
IN CINCINNATI

MEMBERS SHOW

INDIANAPOLIS LOCAL INVESTS $2,700 IN BONDS

MOLTRUP STEEL CO. PAYS $11,238

DESIRE TO AID,
MEDRICK SAYS
Half

Rates

BACK PAY TO SWOC MEMBERS

Syracuse Locals

Offer Solid Aid
To Crush Hitler

Are

Gift

Table

Solid Vote Given
SWOC in Memphis

MEMBERS GET AID
COMPENSATION

Indiana Plants
Sign New Pacts
Won

TUBE CITY LOCAL BUYS NATIONAL DEFENSE BONDS

Won't Shave Until
Bethlehem Signs

J. L. Agrees to
Bond Check-off

81,675 BONDS SOLD
UNDER CHECK-OF

PAY

STEEL LABOR

STEEL LABOR

Page

STEEL LABOR

'LITTLE STEEL VOTED 'YES'-SO WILL BIG

CIO URGES UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF TO BOLSTER
MORALE OF DISPLACED WORKERS

UNFAIR RENT RAISES
CONDEMNED BY CIO

Canadian Steel Workers Tour U.S.Mills

Canadian SWOC Members Tour U.S. Mills
WORKERS SEEK

Joseph Good Honored

SWOC MEN SING TO AID WAR PROGRAMS

IDEAS TO HELP

LETTERS FROM READERS TO THE EDITOR
Policy

WAR CAPACITY

Republic Miner
Gets Back Wages

Pioneer Local Buys $1,600 Defense Bonds

LAKE ERIE UNION
VOTES FOR SWOC

STEEL LABOR

Page Eight

February 27. 1912

California Locals Endorse SWOC Demands
ACTION TAKEN
AT STATE-WIDE
UNION PARLEY

'BIG STEEL PACT

SWOC INVESTS $50,000 IN BONDS

TO BE REOPENED
(Continued from Page 1

clause has always the

Oakland Conference Also
Sets Goal of $750,000
Defense Bonds
Oakland, Cal. Feb.

delegates 20 local unions the
SWOC California,

membership close to 20,000. unani-

mounly pledged their support of the
present policy of the union to secure
of

not

less

Board

bargaining rights for 263,000

dollar

workers
This

PAY YOUR DUES

fifth

action

Plan Will Boost

SWOC

Steel Output
(Continued from Page

000 light tanks. 10 battleships and

Buy

Defense
is

The

frequently

shown

County
Defense

with

Defense
when

Office

the

April

Clark
the

of

members

the

SWOC WINS VOTE AT

SWOC Men Awarded
Navy 'E' Medals

INTERLAKE IRON CO.
8 Chicago, III. Feb. 27 By

Ambridge. Pa. Feb 27 Km
Drawn Steel Co

recently
Excel

by

symbolic
Local

of

in defense

Office

Union

the

vote of 429 to 263. the SWOC
bargaining rights for employes
two plants of the Interlake Iron
through an election conducted

the National Labor Relations Board.

The election was held determine
employee

the

the
in

Maywood July.

whether SWOC Local or the
Employes Association Interlake

members of the SWOC said Manuel
Wood, SWOC representative in the

Iron should act as bargaining agent

district,

for the employee

U.S. HONORS WORKERS AT GREAT LAKES STEEL
keep
eent

ation

lack
than

Mr

the

the

plant.

le

Heart

of

Stanley

presi

effectu

of

to

Arsenal

keep

Democracy

the
at

total

capacity

101

January 28, 1942
Dear Mr. Murray:

I think you may be interested in seeing the
enclosed picture taken during my visit to the Detroit

area on Sunday. The gentleman on my right is Stanley
Cook, President of Local #1299 of your own Steel Workers
Organizing Committee. This flag was awarded at the
Great Lakes Steel plant, where more than 90% of your
union members are saving regularly out of their pay for
the purchase of Defense Bonds. They have been making a
perfectly wonderful response to the Defense Savings
campaign.

It gave me a real lift to go to the Detroit
area and see the extent of C.I.O. participation in our
payroll savings plans. My wife went for me to the

Chrysler Tank Arsenal and said that the enthusiasm

among the C.I.O. workers there was thrilling. Later I
had the privilege of speaking to a great and friendly

audience of U.A.W.-C.I.O. workers at the Coliseum, and
again found a spirit of which you may well be proud.
Sincerely,
(Signed) B. Morgenthan. Jr.

Mr. Philip Murray,
President, Congress of
Industrial Organizations,
1106 Connecticut Avenue,
Washington, D. C.

CC - to Mr. Thomason

FK/hkb

102
THE SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY
WASHINGTON

January 28, 1942
Dear Phil:

I think you may be interested in seeing the
enclosed picture taken during my visit to the Detroit
area on Sunday. The gentleman on my right is Stanley
Cook, President of Local #1299 of your own Steel Workers
Organizing Committee. This flag was awarded at the
Great Lakes Steel plant, where more than 90% of your
union members are saving regularly out of their pay for
the purchase of Defense Bonds. They have been making a
perfectly wonderful response to the Defense Savings
campaign.

It gave me a real lift to go to the Detroit area
and see the extent of C.I.O. participation in our payroll

savings plans. My wife went for me to the Chrysler Tank
Arsenal and said that the enthusiasm among the C.I.O.

workers there was thrilling. Later I had the privilege

of speaking to a great and friendly audience of U.A.W.C.I.O. workers at the Coliseum, and again found a spirit
of which you may well be proud.

Sincerely,

Mr. Philip Murray,
President, Congress of
Industrial Organizations,

1106 Connecticut Avenue,
Washington, D. C.

103

March 9, 1942

Dear Mr. Murray :

Thank you very much for sending me a copy of your broadcast

on war production. It was an
excellent talk and I should like
to send you my congratulations.

I appreciate your courtesy in
enabling me to have the full text.
Sincerely,

(Signed) E. Jr.
Secretary of the Treasury

Mr. Philip Murray
President

Congress of Industrial Organizations
1106 Connecticut Avenue, Northwest
Washington, D. C.

file n.m.c.
FK:blb (3/9/42)

copies to thompson

104

CONGRESS OF INDUSTRIAL ORGANIZATIONS
1106 CONNECTICUT AVENUE, NORTHWEST

WASHINGTON, D.C.
TELEPHONE DISTRICT 3582

Office of

a PASSED

"

:
March 6, 1942

The Honorable

Secretary of the Treasury
Washington, D. C.

Dear Mr. Secretary:

I am sending you herewith a copy of the

nation-wide broadcast which I shall deliver tonight over the

Blue Network, to express the response of the Congress of

Industrial Organizations to the call of President Roosevelt
for the immediate stepping up of war production.
Sincerely,

Philip Murray

President

uopwa 27

105
WE'LL WORK TO WIN

By Philip Murray, President
Congress of Industrial Organizations
(A nationwide broadcast delivered over the Blue Network
on Friday, March 6, from 10:15 to 10:30 P.M., EWT)
The President of the United States and Donald Nelson, Chairman of the War

Production Board, have challenged labor and industry to speed up war production
inmediately, on a greater scale than has ever been attempted in any country in the

history of mankind. I am going to accept this challenge tonight on behalf of the
five million working men and women who make up the Congress of Industrial Organiations.
Our President is now our Commander-in-Chief in a world war which threatens

not only our nation's security and our very lives, but all our freedoms, our way
of life, and our living standards, as no previous war has ever done. There can
be no question of the response of true American working men and women to the de-

mands of our Commander-in-Chief in such a war. It is the wholehearted and
enthusiastic response of good soldiers of democracy, who know that everything
depends upon united and disciplined support of our great leader.

But I can go much further than this. For I speak for the working people,
who have more at stake in this war than perhaps any other section of our population. We are fighting nations whose economy is based on slave labor. In Gormany,
Italy and Japan there are no labor unions, as we know them. On the contrary, the

first aim of any Nazi or Fascist movement is to destroy the labor unions. Labor
leaders are stood up against the wall and shot. Workers who seek botter conditions in the shop are hounded, beaten, placed in concentration camps or murdered.
Without union protection and without democracy, the workers are ground

down to coolie wage levels and intolerable working conditions. They are treated

as voiceless instruments of their dictators, their war lords and their industrialists. In every country conquered by Hitler and his gang, like conditions, or
even worse, have been imposed on the working population. A similar fate will cer-

tainly be in store for the working people of America, if our fighting strength

is not sufficient to crush the military might of the Axis.
We know that this is labor's war. We of labor must be more than loyal

followers and patriotic citizens. We are and must continue to be leaders in the
demand for moro production and for every step that is necessary to win the war.

106
-2-

Certainly the history of the war to date leaves no room for complacency.
Hitler has counted on the softness and the complacency of every country he has conquered. The Japanese have taken full advantage of our unproparedness. Furthermore, the months which lie immediately ahead will be of crucial importance, par-

ticularly in the field of industrial production. Our whole country, and every man
and woman in it, must be aroused and mobilized for total war, for a tremendous

transformation from a peaceful people to a nation of warriors, if we are to turn
the tide of battle from defense and retroat to offense and victory.

When I speak of a nation of warriors, I am thinking too of our industrial
workers. Modern mechanized warfare calls for some 18 workers in industry for every

man at the front. Each fighting man depends for his very life on the workers who
produce his munitions, his arms and his supplies. They too must think as soldiers,
bending their every effort for more and more production, for one purpose above all

others -- victory for our armed forces.
We pledge our complete and wholehearted support to our Commander-in-Chief,

President Roosevelt, for the achievement of the production goals which he has set.

In doing so, we are mindful that upon the shoulders of labor rests the primary
responsibility for achieving these goals. We are also mindful that the experience
of other countries has taught us other lessons besides the fate which lios in store

for labor if Hitler wins. It has taught us that national unity can be undermined
by appeasers and Quislings, whose subtle propaganda can be as dangerous as actual

plant sabotage. We are determined that our country shall not suffer the fato of

France or Norway, through the disruptivo efforts of fifth columnists or selfproclaimed patriots who preach disunity.

At the present time, in particular, we must guard against carping critics
of our President and of the program which he has initiated for winning the war.

Constructive criticism we must have, to mobilize our full democratic effort, But
let the appeasers and the men of faint heart beware of the wrath of America's

workers, if their constant carping cloaks a purpose to dis-unite, to confuse, and
to sabotage our war effort.

Mr. Donald Nelson, our Production Chief, has just announced a concrete
program for increasing and speeding up war production. We welcome this program

most heartily and pledge our enthusiastic cooperation for placing it into execu-

107

tion. In fact, we of the CIO take pride in the knowledge that we have been
pioneers and leaders in the demand for just such a program for mobilizing American
industry for all-out war production.
The Industry Council Plan which the CIO advanced more than a year ago was

designed for just this purpose. So too were the proposals advanced by our unions

in all the major industries for early conversion to war production and industrywide planning. We were the first to put forward conorete proposals for producing
more steel, more aluminum, more copper, more airplanes and more of all the other

goods and services that are needed for victory.
We take courage and ronewed inspiration from the fact that our Production
chief is now urging steps which wo have long advocated. The joint labor-management

plant committees which he proposes are directly in line with our Industry Council
proposals, as is the whole spirit of the program which he advances.
Speaking now to the officers and members of our affiliated unions and

councils, I call upon you to act without delay in the spirit of the call issued by
our President and our War Production Chief. Many of you, I know, have already
approached the managements in your respective plants with concrete proposals for

joint effort to increase production. In many cases, where such committoes have
been set up, production has increased from 10 to 50 per cent.

In somo casos, it is true, we have encountered reluctance on the part of
management. But now that such committee planning for increased production has
bocome the national policy of our government, I am suro that WO can count on

patriotic employers to join with labor in sotting up functioning committees for the
promotion of every constructive step to produce more and more. The goals cannot
be set too high.

Production Chief Nelson has also advanced proposals for appropriate awards

for the soldiers of industry as well as for our soldiers in uniform. This is a
splendid idea. So too is his proposal for enlisting the spirit of American competition in achieving over higher production quotas. I know that our CIO members

will enter wholehoartedly into this spirit of patriotic competition.
Perhaps somo of my non-labor listeners may be saying to thomsolves at this

point: "All you have said is fine and dandy, but what is all this wo road about
strikes and about labor trying to take a solfish advantage?"

108
-4-

Lot us moot this question squarely and frankly. Let us clear from our
minds the fog of propaganda deliberately spread by profiteers, reactionaries and
appeasers who are trying to take a selfish advantage over labor in this emergency.

If we so examino the facts, wo will find labor's position is firm and consistent,
that winning the war must be our first consideration, and that nothing must be
allowed to interrupt war production.

Labor itself WOLS the first, of its own free will, to advance an effective
program for the ending of strikes. No sooner was war declared than both the Congross of Industrial Organizations and the American Federation of Labor, assembled
in conference with representativos of industry and government, solennly pledged

themsolves to set aside the strike woapon for the duration of the war. Wo also
advanced proposals, accepted by the President, for the peaceful solution of all
labor disputes, through mediation, conciliation and arbitration.
There has not been a single authorized strike in a war industry since that
tino, and all the efforts of the CIO and its unions have been directed to ending
at once such minor incidents as have occurred. These incidents have been fow and

of the briefost duration, but they have been grossly inflated and misrepresented
by solfish propagandists for the purpose of promoting anti-labor legislation.
There is no force, not even that of a complete dictator, which can furnish any
absolute guarantee that a man will not cease working under conditions which he

finds intolerable. The best guarantee that can be givon under a free system is
the pledge of the workers' own democratically elected representatives and the
assurance that collective bargaining will remedy grievances without the need to
strike.

The CIO can point to a record of uninterrupted production by millions upon

millions of industrial workers; and to the ;oneeful solution of thousands of
grievances and disputes which might otherwise have led to stoppagos, had there been

nc union on the job to prevent them. We are dotormined to maintain this record.
I am again calling the attention of our unions and our membership to the
colorn agreement, to which we have voluntarily subscribed, that "there shall be
no strikes or lookouts", and "all disputes shall be settled by peaceful moans".

This is our commitment to our President and to our country. I call upon all our
unions, their officers and their members, to exercise the utmost patience and tol-

erance in adjusting all disputes. Proper channels are now provided for their

109
-5-

poaceful adjustment. Support your country and your unions by seeing that not an
hour of production-time is lost from any cause, until we win the war.
Production Chief Nelson has called for a 168-hour working week for the

machinery of industry. We are wholeheartedly in favor of working our plant and
equipment every hour of the week that it can be utilized, Our unions, in many
alsos, have been the first to call for 24-hour and seven-day week production.
But human beings are not machines. Their efficiency depends upon reason-

able working hours and adequate rest periods. Practical experience in Great
Britain and other countries, under war conditions, has shown a sharp decrease in
actual production when excessivo hours were worked, and working hours have had

bc reduced for the very purpose of increasing production,

In conclusion, I want to stress again and again to labor and to the pub-

lic that America is today at the parting of the ways. If we lie down on the job,
if we shirk, if we listen to the sly preachers of disunity and complacency, if we
fail to back up our armed forces with all that is in us, we can go down to defoat,

dishonor and the loss of all our liberties -- to the complete blackout of civiliza.
tion which Hitler and the Axis are fighting to bring about.
But if, on the other hand, the American people, and the working people in

particular, are true to ourselves and to our country, if we stand loyally behind
our President, if we devote our every thought and effort to more and more production, more effective civilian defenso, and more and more support to our armod

forces, wo shall turn the tide of battle in these very days and weeks that lie
ahoad of us, to final and complete victory. Our destiny is in hour hands -- the
hands of every one of us.

To labor, and particularly to the members of the Congress of Industrial

Organizations, whom I have the honor to represent, I say: Get on the job at once
Heed the call of our Commander-in-Chief and our country! Let our slogan be:
WORK, WORK, WORKI PRODUCE, PRODUCE, PRODUCE:

110

CONFIDE NTIAL

Daily changes in the stock of Series E savings bonds on hand 1
(In thousands of pieces)
:

: this day

:
:

this day

Feb. 23

214

24

manufactured

Stock on hand

at close of
day

IBM

deliveries
this day

800

21,905

55

800

22,650

1,600

25

104

800

23,346

700

26

158

800

23,988

875

27

240

800

24,548

660

28

162

24,386

none-closed

none-closed
none-closed

24,386

304

500

24,582

160

500

24,922

171

500

25,251

200

500

25,551

210

500

25,841

none-closed

25,630

Mar. 1
2

3

4

5

6

7

211

Office of the Secretary of the Treasury,
Division of Research and Statistics.
1

:

Number of pieces

:pieces sold

:

: Number of

-

-

-

-

625
-

625
-

625

March 9, 1942

Includes stock in hands of (1) Federal Reserve Banks and branches, (2) Post
offices, (3) Federal Reserve Bank issuing agents, and (4) Treasury vaults
in Washington.

CONFIDENTIAL
UNITED STATES SAVINGS BONDS

Comparative Statement of Sales During
First Six Business Days of March, February and January 1942
(March 1-7. February 1-7, January 1-7)
On Basis of Issue Price

(Amounts in thousands of dollars)

:

January

: February

-$ 4,782
- 42,384

-$ 7,895

- 16.8%

22,102

- 39.1

- 47,166

- 34.5
- 46.3

- 39.3

11.6
55.7
61.7

- 37.3%

30.0%

:

$ 23,708

$ 28,490

$ 36,385

65,889

108,273

86,171

89,597
11,354
59.086

136,763
21,136
97,261

122,555
13,573
60,150

- 38,175

14,208
7,563
37,111

$160,037

$255,160

$196,279

-$95,123

$58,881

- 9.782

Office of the Secretary of the Treasury, Division of Research and Statistics.

over

:

Total

:

Series G - Banks

: February

over

:

:

Series F - Banks

March
over

:

:

Series E - Total

: February

:

:

Series E - Banks

February

:

January

Percentage of Increase
or Decrease (-)
:

:

Series E - Post Offices

March
over

:

:
:

February

or Decrease (-)

:

:

: March

Amount of Increase

:

Item

Sales

January

- 21.7%
25.6

March 9. 1942.

Source: All figures are deposits with the Treasurer of the United States on account of proceeds
of sales of United States savings bonds.
Note: Figures have been rounded to nearest thousand and will not necessarily add to totals.

112

CONFIDENTI

UNITED STATES SAVINGS BONDS

Daily Sales - March, 1942
On Basis of Issue Price

(In thousands of dollars)
Post Office
Date

All Bond Sales

Bank Bond Sales

Bond Sales

Series E

Series E

Series F

Series G

Total

Series E

Series F

Series G

Total

$ 5,811

$ 15,868

$ 2,043

$ 8,726

$ 26,636

$ 21,678

$ 2,043

$ 8,726

$ 32,447

2,975
3,395
3,869
4,179
3,480

8,459
8,833
10,448
10,696
11,586

1,629
2,658
1,680
1,759
1,586

8,780
12,558
11,870
10,825
6,328

18,868
24,048
23,998
23,279
19,499

11,434
12,228
14,317
14,875
15,066

1,629
2,658
1,680
1,759
1,586

8,780
12,558
11,870
10,825
6,328

21,843
27,443
27,867
27,458
22,979

$ 23,708

$ 65,889

$ 11,354

$ 59,086

$136,329

$ 89,597

$ 11,354

$ 59,086

$160,037

March 1942
2

3

4

6

7

Total

Office of the Secretary of the Treasury, Division of Research and Statistics.
Source: All figures are deposits with the Treasurer of the United States on account of proceeds of
sales of United States savings bonds.
Note: Figures have been rounded to nearest thousand and will not necessarily add to totals.

March 9. 1942.

113

TREASURY DEPARTMENT
INTER OFFICE COMMUNICATION

CONFIDENTIAL
DATE

March 9, 1942

Secretary Morgenthau

TO

FROM

Mr. Haas

Subject:

The Business Situation,

Week ending March 7, 1942.
Summary

(1) The Federal Reserve Board's preliminary and confidential estimate of the seasonally-adjusted index of
industrial production for February is 173, as compared with
171 (revised) for January. Aggregate industrial output rose
more than seasonally, largely as a result of increased acti-

vity in the manufacture of armament.

(2) Stock prices moved lower last week, with selling
attributed to prospects of heavier taxation and adverse war
news. The Dow-Jones average of industrial stocks declined

to the lowest level since 1938, while the average of utility
stocks reached the lowest point since its compilation was

begun in 1929.

(3) Despite relative stability in basic commodity
prices, the general price level continues to rise. With a
further advance of 0.3 percent to 96.8 in the last week in

February, the BLS all-commodity index has reached the
highest level since September 1928. The index now stands
29.1 percent above the level of August 1939 and 5.0 percent
above that of the week before the attack on Pearl Harbor.
(4) National income payments moved up to a new record

annual rate of $101.2 billions in January. However, the purchasing power of national income fell slightly below that
of December, due to the relatively sharp rise in living
costs during the month.

(5) The tonnage of steel ingots scheduled for production
last week slightly exceeded the previous record set last
fall. However, the operating rate of 97.2 percent of capacity has been bettered on numerous occasions. Operations
during the current week are scheduled at 97.4 percent of
capacity.

-2-

114

Industrial production at new high
Aggregate industrial output last month showed further
gains. The Federal Reserve Board's preliminary and confidential estimate for February indicates that the seasonallyadjusted index of industrial production during the month
rose 2 points to a new high of 173. (See Chart 1.) The gain
was due to the fact that actual output rose more than
seasonally, and on the whole slightly exceeded the previous

peak levels attained last fall. Activity was sharply re-

duced in the automobile industry, and was also out somewhat

in the woolen textile, and paper industries. However,

these declines were more than offset by increases in other
industries, principally those engaged in armanent manufactur-

ing. Despite the recent gain in industrial output, the

Production Director of the WPB last week stated that shortages of materials threatened to prevent attainment of some of
the production goals set by the President.
The rise in the industrial production index last month
contrasts with the declines shown during most of the period

by the New York Times' and Barron's weekly indexes of business
activity. However, as man-hours expended on war materials
output assume increasing importance as a gauge of production,

weekly indexes of business activity are likely to show

greater divergences from the monthly FRB index than in the
past. Moreover, the coverage of weekly indexes has been reduced in recent periods due to discontinuation of weekly
production data for the automobile and cotton textile
industries.

Stock market declines to new low

In the face of mounting industrial activity, the stock

market continues to move lower. Under the impact of additional adverse war news and the outlook for further tax
increases, the Dow-Jones industrial stook averages last
week declined over 4 percent to a new low since 1938. (See

Chart 2.) On a relative basis, utility stocks made an even
poorer showing and declined to the lowest level since
compilation of the average was begun in 1929. Friday's
closing utility average of 12.20 contrasts strikingly with
the record high of 144.61 reached on September 21, 1929.
The volume of trading was relatively light until near the
end of the week, when activity increased moderately as the

market weakened.

Even railroad stocks, which have recently been resisting the declining trend of the market, sagged moderately in

the latter part of the week. Excellent traffic prospects,

3(

115

improved earnings and finances, as well as relatively lighter
tax burdens, have contributed to the stronger market performance of these stocks. (Refer to Chart 2.) Early last
week the Interstate Commerce Commission authorized freight
rate increases equivalent to about two-thirds of the amount
sought by the railroads, in order to offset increases in wage
rates and other costs. Judging from subsequent action of
railroad
stocks, the ICC decision was about in line with
market
expectations.

While the rise in freight rates will enable the rail-

roads largely to offset recent wage increases, they will also
add to industrial costs, which will have to be absorbed into

the general price structure. At last year's traffic level,

the increased
rates
would
raise the national freight bill by
about
203 million
dollars
annually.
Wholesale prices continue to rise
Extensive control of basic commodity prices has not kept

the BLS all-commodity price index of nearly 900 commodities
from continuing its upward climb. In the week ended February 28

the all-commodity index rose 0.3 percent to 96.8, the highest
above the August 1939 pre-war level. (See Chart 3, red line.)
After levelling out from mid-September through the week

point since September 1928. The index now stands 29.1 percent

ended December 6, wholesale prices rose sharply in the week
following the Pearl Harbor attack, and resumed their general
upward trend. From December 6 to the end of February the
index advanced 5.0 percent. As is shown in Chart 4, four
component indexes accounted for most of the advance: farm
product prices increased 12.3 percent; chemicals and allied

products, 8.2 percent; foods, 7.7 percent; and textile products, 4.6 percent. That chemical prices have not risen
higher is doubtless due to broad action taken by the OPA and
the Board of Economic Warfare. Textile prices in the week
ended February 28, it will be noted, advanced more than
prices for any other group, reflecting sharply increased
prices for woolen and worsted materials, and moderate increases
in clothing prices.
Basic commodity prices higher
The BLS price index of basic commodities moved upward

last week, departing from its previous stable trend.
(See Chart 5.) The indexes for foodstuffs and raw industrial materials both advanced. The rise in foodstuff prices
was due principally to higher prices for livestock and

livestock products. Hog prices have now advanced 32.1

116
percent since December 6 and 107.3 percent since August 1939;
prices for steers have advanced 8.2 percent since December 6;
and lard prices have increased 17.7 percent since December 6

to ceiling levels.

Price changes among industrial raw materials last week
were limited to three commodities. Flaxseed prices continued
their broad rise, and wool prices advanced, while cotton

prices declined slightly. The strength in flaxseed and linseed
oil prices was intensified by further stringency in shipping
space from Argentina and an announcement that the Canadian

Government had "frozen" all flaxseed stocks in elevators and

mills because of the international situation restricting supplies of vegetable oils.
Cotton textile situation tightening

Sales of cotton goods, especially of unfinished goods,
are currently exceeding their very high production volumes,
and it 18 believed in the trade that shortages will develop

by next summer on many classes of finished goods. Manufacturers of finished goods are finding it difficult to
obtain continuous and unvarying supplies of oloth, and manu-

facturers of cotton goods are finding it increasingly difficult to obtain adequate supplies of yarn.

In January, cotton mills consumed raw cotton at a record
daily level, although this was only two percent over the
rate in effect ten months ago. Only a very small percentage
of spindles were idle, and those in operation averaged close
to 19 hours of active work a day. The chief limit to some

further activity is reported to be a shortage of satisfactory

labor.

The Department of Agriculture forecasts an even greater
rate of mill consumption of cotton in the months immediately
ahead, at a level which will materially reduce the carryover of raw cotton as of August 1, 1942. Factors contributing to greater cotton consumption are reduced imports of
and increased war requirements for jute, hard fibers (principally sisal, henequen and abaca), and wool. Moreover,
imports of raw and manufactured cotton, silk, flax, and hemp,
now reduced or eliminated, have hitherto aggregated a considerable quantity. In 1935-39, these imports averaged 31
percent of the fibers available for consumers in the United
States. Cotton will also have to be used in much larger
quantity in place of burlap for the greater requirements
in the production, harvesting, and marketing of farm products, and for sandbags.

-5-

117

Some comment 18 noted of a possible cotton shortage in

1943. In this connection it is significant that Secretary

Wickard has called on cotton farmers to plant their full

acreage allotment of 27,400,000 acres of cotton in 1942.
The 1941 crop of 10,976,000 bales was produced from a
planted acreage of 23,250,000.

National income payments still rising
National income payments continued to rise in January

and attained an annual rate of $101.2 billions. (See
Chart 6.) This compares with an annual rate of $100.2 billions in the previous month and $81.7 billions in January
1941. However, due to a relatively sharp rise in living

costs during January, the purchasing power of national
income payments actually showed a elight decline from the
peak levels reached in December. (Refer to Chart 6.)
The total national income produced in 1941 18 estimated
by the Department of Commerce at $94.5 billions, or 22 per-

cent above that in 1940. A part of the increase, however,
was due to the higher price level, real income showing an
estimated increase of 15 percent. Wages and salaries paid
in 1941 totalled $61.2 billions, about 25 percent greater
than in the previous year. The Department of Commerce notes
that at the end of 1941, national income produced was running
at an annual rate of about $104 billions, of which about 20
percent represented war production.

Seasonal decline in non-agricultural employment

Largely as a result of seasonal factors, civil non-

agricultural employment in mid-January was 1,235,000 lower
than a month earlier. However, 62 percent of the decrease
was due to the usual reduction in temporary personnel in

wholesale and retail trade following the Christmas holiday
sales rush. Total civil non-agricultural employment in

January was approximately 39,850,000 -- a gain of 2,700,000

over the year-earlier level. Factory employment rose
1,500,000 during the year, thus accounting for well over

half of the total increase.

Analysis of the January non-agricultural employment on

a regional basis reveals that the widest gain over yearearlier levels was shown in the Pacific coast States, with
an increase of over 17 percent. Nevertheless, the largest
gain for any State was shown by Alabama, followed by
Oregon, the District of Columbia, and Arkansas, in the order

named. Only Florida and Louisiana showed employment decreases

from year-earlier levels, although the gain in Michigan was

limited to less than 2 percent, due, no doubt, to the cur-

tailment in automobile production. The percentage increase

-6-

118

decrease in non-agricultural employment by States from
January 1941 to January 1942 is shown in the attached Table 1.
Steel operations at new high

or

Although last week's steel operating rate of 97.2 per-

cent of capacity has been exceeded on numerous occasions,

the tonnage of steel ingots scheduled for production last
week (in view of the industry's expanded capacity) was

slightly above the previous record set at the end of last

October. During the current week, operations are scheduled
at 97.4 percent of capacity.

In connection with its efforts to break the bottleneck

in steel plate production, the WPB announced last week
that new specifications had been worked out with the
Maritime Commission for plates for the "ugly duckling* cargo

ships. As a result, it was stated that 80 to 90 percent of

the plates needed for these ships would come from converted

strip mills, as compared with only about 10 percent hereto-

fore. This will serve to relieve the heavy pressure on the
normal plate-making facilities of the industry.

119

Table 1

Percentage increase in non-agricultural employment
January 1941 to January 1942,
by States

State
Alabama
Oregon

District of Columbia

Arkansas
Washington

California
Maine
Nevada

Virginia
Missouri

Nebraska
New Hampshire
New Jersey

Connecticut
Colorado
Vermont

Georgia
Ohio

Misconsin
Massachusetts

Pennsylvania
Arizona
Maryland
Indiana
Minnesota

Percent

State

increase
22.9
21.4
21.2
17.9
17.6
16.4
15.5
14.8
12.9
12.3
12.0
11.8
11.8
11.5
11.1
11.0
10.7
10.3
9.6
9.3
9.3
9.3

9.2
8.9
8.9

Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics

Illinois

Utah
Iowa

West Virginia
Tennessee

New Mexico
New York
Kansas
Oklahoma

Idaho

South Carolina
Rhode Island
South Dakota
Kentucky

Mississippi
Texas
North Carolina
Delaware

North Dakota

Montana
Wyoming

Michigan
Louisiana

Florida

Percent

increase
8.8
8.8
8.6
7.8
7.8
7.5
7.5
7.5
7.0
6.5
6.1
6.1
5.5
5.4
4.9
4.4
4.3
4.2
3.9
3.6
2.5
1.9

-0.9
-1.5

1

DERAL RESERVE BOARD INDEX
OF INDUSTRIAL PRODUCTION
1935-39-100
1939

1940

1941

1942

PERCENT J MAM J N D AJJASONDJFMAMJJASONDJFMAM

PERCENT

Seasonally Adjusted

170

170

165
165
160
160

155
155

150
150
145
145

140
140
135
135

130
130
125
125

120
120
115
115

110

110
105
105

100
100
95
J

FMAMJJASOND 1939 J F M1940
A M J J O N D JFMAMJJASONDJFMAMJ
1941
1942

95

Office of the Security of the Treasury

C-349-2

Range
MAY

any

MM

30 Industrial Stocks

180

180

170

170

160
160

150
150

140
140

130
130

120

120

110
110

100

100

90

90

55

55

50

50

20 Railroads
45

45

40

40

35

35

30

30

25

25

20

20

15

15

10

10

35

35

15 Utilities
30

30

25

25

20

20

15

15

10

10

SMARES

Volume of Trading

SHARES

WILLIONS

(AVERAGE OF DAILY)
3
0

MAR.

JULY

1942

0

Chart 3

122

B.L.S. INDEXES OF WHOLESALE COMMODITY PRICES
1926 = 100

Weekly

Daily

1942
on
PER

PER

GENT

CENT
PER
GENT

106

104
104

106
103
103

104

102
102

102

101
101

100

100
100

98

ALL COMMODITIES
(NEEKLY)

97

ALL

COMMODITIES

93

28 age COMMODITIES

92

28 BASIC COMMODITIES

76

76

74

72

as

DCC.

FEB.

APR.

17

OCT.

DEC.

FEB.

in

so
to
60

JUN.

,

940

17

24

11 10 25
APRIL

P.29.2

Chart 4

123
WHOLESALE COMMODITY PRICES
Percentage Changes in Major Groups of B.L.S. All Commodity Index
Week Ended Dec. 6. 1941 to Week Ended Feb. 21 and Feb. 28, 1942
PCR

CENT

FARM PRODUCTS
12

10

CHEMICALS, ETC.
8

FOODS

6

ALL COMMODITIES
TEXTILE PRODUCTS

4

BUILDING MATERIALS
MISC. COMMODITIES
HOUSEFURNISHINGS

2

HIDES AND LEATHER
PRODUCTS

METALS AND METAL
PRODUCTS

0

FUEL AND LIGHTING

-2

DEC.6

Fca.21

Fca.28

1941

1942

1942

Office of the Secretary of the Treasury
Division of Research and Statistics

P 235

MOVEMENT OF BASIC COMMODITY PRICES
AUGUST 1939-100

PERCENT

PERCENT

PERCENT

PERCENT

Weekly Average

Daily

220

220

200

200

200

200

190

190

12 Foodstuffs

12 Foodstuffs

180

160

170

170

140

160

120

150

100

140

16 Row Industrial
Materials

16 Row Industrial
Materials

20

-

JAN.

.

DEC.

1942

1941

27

3

JUNE AUG. OCT. DEC FEB APR JUNE AUG. OCT DEC.

-

100

150

a

120

160

.

140

180

,

160

180

140
.

a

180

.

MAR

FEB.

1942

1941

PERCENTAGE CHANGE FOR INDIVIDUAL COMMODITIES
Dec. 6. 1941 to Feb.27and Mar. 1942

Aug. 1939 to Mar. 6. 1942

PERCENT

PERCENT

Hage M/X

12 Foodstuffs

12 Foodstuffs
+25

200

+20

Cottonesed Oil IQUX

160

Tallow MATX

Lord

+15

Lard

Borkey as

SHoge 107.3X
Cocoa 106.7X

120

Corn aix

+10

Barley 86.2X
Corn 82.00

Steere azx
Tollow 79X

Wheat 722X

80

Coffee nzx

Sugar 4.9%

+5

Wheat LA

Steare anx

Cottonesed Oil SEX

Butter 44AX
40

Coffee ox

0

Sugar JOSE

Cocoa -asx
Butter -LSX
-5

0

AuA

1939

Mar. 6.

Dec.6.

1942

1941

Mar 6.

1942

1942

PERCENT

Shelloc 231.3x

PERCENT

Feb.27,

Flanseed J2.5%

16 Raw Industrial
Materials

16 Raw Industrial Materials
+25

200

Cotton 10942

Load NJX

+20

Cotton our

Burlap I004X

160

Roan OR

(Print Cloth 04/X
Zinc 49/X
Pleased 420X

120

(Print Cloth 44X

+15

Wool 2X
Shelloe OX

Whol 50.33

Roain ALIX

Zine ox

+10

SM ox

(Hides

Rubber ox

St.Songa.dom

80

Rubber MAX
glood 290X

Copper ox

+5

St.Screendom ox

Tin ox

need
40

Copper NOX

St Screp up ox

0

- ICEX

Hides ox

Tin 4.4X

Burlap -4.2X
-5

1939

Mar. 6.

Dec.6.

1942

1941

Feb.27
1942

Mar 6.
1942

P-234-3

.

0

Aud

NATIONAL INCOME AND ITS LQUIVALENT PURCHASING POWER
1939

DOLLARS

94

1940

1942

DOLLARS

BILLIONS

BILLIONS

Monthly
100

100

96
96

92

92

NATIONAL INCOME

88

88

84

84

80
80

PURCHASING POWER OF
NATIONAL INCOME
.

76

76

72

72

1939

1940

1941

1942

J

Based ON COST OF LIVING INDEX OF B.L.S. Aug. 1939 = 100
Office of the Secretary of the Treasury

- . - - Media

C - 415

126
March 9, 1942

MONTHLY REPORT OF NATIONAL DEFENSE CASES
FEBRUARY 1942

9190

Applications received as of January 31, 1942
Applications received during February
Previously reported cases reopened

6

9196

Total received as of February 28, 1942
*

*

*

*

5647

Completed investigations as of January 31
Completed investigations during February
Total completed investigations as of February 28

177

5824
486

Applications withdrawn as of January 31
Applications withdrawn during February
Applications delivered to Department of Justice
Total applications withdrawn as of February 28

-

2852
3338
9162

Total cases closed as of February 28, 1942

Applications pending in office as of February 28
Applications pending in field as of February 28

5

29

34

Total applications pending as of February 28,1942
9196

Total cases disposed of and pending as of February 28

*

*

*

*

Agents engaged on this work under direction of this office close of
February 1942.

Secret Service
Customs Service

Narcotics Service

Intelligence Unit

54

-

-

Alcohol Tax Unit

-

-

2

-

6

-

38

127
Sent to McConnell in New York c/o J. J. O'Connell, Jr.
AIR MAIL

128

MAR 9- 1942

Dear Mr. McConnell:

Now that we have reached an understanding

that you are to take on the job of running, as its
President, the affairs of General Aniline and Film

Corporation, aided by a small group of not more than
three men to serve with you as a Board of Directors,

I think it desirable to state again the general

policy which the Government proposes to pursue in
handling the affairs of the Company.

Our program envisages the elimination of

all things in General Aniline and Film Corporation
representing control by German interests. These
controls stemmed in the first instance from ownership
of the corporation by I. G. Farbenindustrie which, in
azi Germany, has been its staunchest bulwark and full

partner. In dealing with its satellites outside of

Germany, I. G. Farben developed an extensive and well-

organized system of controls. Men were trained in
I. G. Farben methods and techniques in the home office
and plants. Some of these men were able technical
men, others were younger sons of the dominant families
within the organization, but all of them were men
whose loyalty to I. G. Farben was unquestioned and
none of them would have been appointed to such im-

portant industrial posts outside of Germany if such

had not been the case.

As soon as they were trained they were sent
to various countries where they were placed in key
technical or administrative positions in companies

within the I. G. Farben sphere of influence. They

were encouraged to marry within the new country and

acquire its citizenship, but they remained "I. G.
Farben Men". Even after filling the key positions

in this way other control techniques were employed.
As recently as late in 1941 managerial policy was
being dictated from Germany by transatlantic telephone,

and until that year periodical official visits were

129

the settled rule. Option agreements of bewildering
complexity reinforced or replaced control by share
ownership. Cross-licensing agreements, control agree-

ments and agreements for the exchange of patents and
"know-how", implemented by frequent exchange of in-

formation cemented enduring ties. All of these methods
were found to be present in General Aniline and Film
Corporation.
The German-owned stock has already been

vested in the Secretary of the Treasury. Furthermore,

WC have broken the lines of communication between the

two companies in so far as they relate to the open

exchange of information and "know-how", and we are
and shall be dealing with the more obvious ways in
which the operations of General Aniline have been con-

trolled from Cermany in the past. More difficult is

the problem of Company personnel, and that is a matter
which requires development somewhat in detail. An
effective job of freeing the organization from German

domination and control requires the elimination of the
I. C. Farben men.

In practice, all persons of executive or man-

agerial status who have been connected with I. G. Farben
will have to be replaced as soon as possible by men unquestionably devoted to American ideals.

With regard to technical personnel of similar
background, our objective may take longer to attain.

Assuming that these men, or some of them, have such

technical qualifications as would make their immediate
dismissal impracticable from an operating standpoint,
they will be retained under surveillance for so long

as is required to obtain and train suitable substitutes
for them. In determining the rate of effecting these
changes I expect to rely heavily on the judgment of
the management.

Persons of doubtful allegiance may also be
found who do not have I. G. Farben backgrounds. These,
too, will be eliminated. However, our program does not

130

-3involve the dismissal of employees simply because

they are of German birth or extraction.
Of course, the whole program must be carried
out wi th a view to maintaining, and wherever possible
expanding, the operations of the Company whose products

are so necessary in the war effort.

will you please confirm to me your willing-

ness to operate the affairs of the Company in a manner

calculated to achieve the results hereinbefore outlined.
Sincerely yours,

(Signed) H. Morgenthau, Jr.

Secretary of the Treasury.

Mr. Robert E. McConnell,
Middleburg,

Virginia.

JJO'C:mdm

3/7/42

Faley

carried

seey.

131
2020120
SALARIES to EXPENSES
FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL 1942

Allot. 1-b

Washington, Dec.
March 9, 1942
E. 0. SEUBERT, PRESIDENT
STANDARD OIL COMPANY (INDIANA),
910 SOUTH VICHIGAN AVENUE,
CHICAGO, ILLINOIS.

WE HAVE TAKEN OVER OWNERSHIP OF GENERAL ANILINE & FILM CORPORATION,
IMPORTANT CHEMICAL MANUFACTURING COMPANY FORMERLY CONTROLLED BY

GERMA Y AN BALLY NEEDED IN OUR MAR EFFORT. ROUL LIKE TO ELECT
A BOARD OF TECHNICALLY TRAINED MEN WITH BUSINESS EXPERIENCE AND

PARTICULARLY KANT YOUR DR. ROBERT E. WILSON. IT WILL REQUIRE HALF
TO TRO-THIRDS OF HIS TIME FOR FIRST MONTH BUT NOT MUCH THER AFTER.
HE BILL PHONE YOU LATE TODAY on TOMORROW MORNING REGARDING ACCEPTANCE

BRICK I HOPE YOU WILL APPROVE.

(Signed) H. Morgenthau, Jr.
SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY

EHF:vls - 3/9/42

132
TREASURY DEPARTMENT
PROCUREMENT DIVISION
OFFICE

OF

THE

DIRECTOR

WASHINGTON

March 9, 1942
MEMORANDUM TO THE SECRETARY:

The following are a few observations made as a result

of a preliminary study of the W. P. B. report of Russian

Lend-Lease steel requirements received today.

1. The narrative report by commodities has been prepared to show an overall picture. The immediate concern is
to make up existing deficiencies by April 1st as directed
by the President, and our reports to you have been prepared

on that basis. It is realized that the time is short, due
for the most part to delays by the Russians in submitting
requisitions. However, the President's request, likewise

the purpose of Mr. Stettinius' visit to you, and your in-

structions emphasize exerting every effort to overcome ex-

isting deficiencies prior to April 1st on Protocol items,
which is the objective.

2. The schedule which follows page ten in the report

shows the Protocol commitment for the six months prior to Ap-

ril 1st as 294,120 tons. I have not checked that figure, but
the next column shows the deficiency as of April 1st as
106,516 tons which takes credit for items other than those
contained in the Protocol, and the actual deficiency is

175,693 tons, the total of items 25 to 41, crediting the excesses.

3. Evidently the W. P. B. Steel Group has used dif-

ferent classification for their report. For example, Steel

Wire for which they show 26,713 tons allocated, of which 7500

tons are allocated for delivery by April 1st, whereas our
records show receipt of allocation orders for 4202 tons.

POPDEFENSE

BUY

There may also be allocations which they have made which have

not yet cleared through to us because the figures which they

report do not reconcile with our record of actual allocations

--

133

received in many instances, which will be checked further.

On page nine of the report it is stated that the deficit as of April 1st will be made up by April 30th. While
the report goes into considerable detail, my reaction to it

was that it was not responsive to the immediate problem of
overcoming to the extent possible existing deficiencies of

specific items by April 1st.

Clifton E. Mack
Director of Procurement

134
Chauncey

TREASURY DEPARTMENT
INTER-OFFICE COMMUNICATION
DATE March 9. 1942

TO

Secretary Morgenthau

FROM Mr. Dietrich

STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL

Official sales of British-owned dollar securities under the various vesting orders since February 19, 1940:

No. of Shares $Proceeds of
Sold

$ Proceeds of
Bonds Sold

Holiday
-

-

-

24

Nominal Value
of Bonds Sold

-

Feb. 23

Shares Sold

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

27

28

-

-

-

26

-

25

-

Sales from
Feb.22,1940

to Feb. 21,1942 9,847,610-1/6 281,858,763

45,647,516

37,473,716

45,647,516

37,473,716

Sales from
Feb.22,1940

to Feb.28,1942 9.847.610-1/6 281,858,763

X

For Miss Chauncey

135

TREASURY DEPARTMENT
INTER-OFFICE COMMUNICATION

DATE March 9. 1942
Secretary Morgenthau

TO

FROM Mr. Dietrich

STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL

Official sales of British-owned dollar securities under the various vest-

ing orders since February 19, 1940:

-

Total

-

-

-

24

Bonds Sold
-

Feb. 23

$ Proceeds of

-

Shares Sold

-

$ Proceeds of

-

25
-

-

-

26
-

-

-

27
-

-

-

28

-

-

-

Sales from

Feb.22,1940 to
Feb.21,1942

281,858,763

37,473,716

319,332,479

281,858,763

37,473,716

319,332,479

Sales from

Feb.22,1940 to
Feb.28,1942

$ proceeds of non-vested securities sold
Feb. 16, 1942 - Feb. 21, 1942
$ proceeds of non-vested securities sold
Sept. 1, 1939 - Feb. 14. 1942
$ proceeds of non-vested securities sold
Sept. 1, 1939 - Feb. 21, 1942

319,332,479

500,000

243,100,000
243,600,000
GRAND TOTAL

Jan. 7. 1942 - Cash Dividend on 156 Shares

Jan. 9. 1942 - Partial Liquidating Dividend
9 Units sold from Aug. 18, 1941 - Feb. 14. 1942
11 Shares Stock Dividend sold Aug. 18, 1941 - Feb. 14, 1942 for
56,007 Rights sold from July 24, 1941 - Feb. 14, 1942 for

243,600,000
562,932,479
61
$

125
42

123

102,938

Miss Chauncer

136

TREASURY DEPARTMENT
INTER-OFFICE COMMUNICATION
DATE March 9. 1942

Secretary Morgenthau

TO

FROM Mr. Dietrich

STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL

Official sales of British-owned dollar securities under the various vesting orders since February 19. 1940:

No. of Shares $ Proceeds of Nominal Value $ Proceeds of
-

Bonds Sold

-

-

-

-

-

-

of Bonds Sold

-

Feb. 16

Shares Sold

-

Sold

-

-

-

17

18

-

-

-

-

19
-

-

-

-

-

-

-

21

-

-

-

20

-

-

Sales from
Feb.22,1940

to Feb.14,1942 9,847,610-1/6 281,858,763
Sales from
Feb.22,1940

to Feb.21,1942 9.847.610-1/6 281,858,763

45,647,516

37,473,716

45,647,516

37,473,716

A

137
TREASURY DEPARTMENT
For Miss Chauncey

INTER-OFFICE COMMUNICATION

DATE March 9. 1942
TO Secretary Morgenthau
FROM Mr. Dietrich

STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL

official sales of British-owned dollar securities under the various vesting orders since February 19, 1940:
$ Proceeds of
Shares Sold

Bonds Sold

Total

-

-

-

-

-

-

Feb. 16

$ Proceeds of

17
-

-

-

-

-

-

-

18
-

19

-

-

21

-

-

-

20

-

-

Sales from

Feb.22,1940 to
Feb.14,1942

281,858,763

37,473,716

319,332,479

281,858,763

37,473,716

319,332,479

Sales from

Feb.22,1940 to
Feb.21,1942

$ proceeds of non-vested securities sold
Feb. 9. 1942 - Feb. 14, 1942
$ proceeds of non-vested securities sold
Sept. 1, 1939 - Feb. 9. 1942
$ proceeds of non-vested securities sold
Sept. 1, 1939 - Feb. 14, 1942

319,332,479

200,000

242,900,000
243,100,000

243,100,000

562,432,479

GRAND TOTAL

61

Jan. 7. 1942 - Cash Dividend on 156 Shares

$

Jan. 9, 1942 - Partial Liquidating Dividend
9 Units sold from Aug. 18, 1941 - Feb. 14, 1942
11 Shares Stock Dividend sold Aug. 18, 1941 - Feb. 14, 1942 for
56,007 Rights sold from July 24, 1941 - Feb. 14, 1942 for

A

125
42

123

102,938

138

Bill
OF

White received Undostate
3/9/12.

DEPARTMENT OF STATE
WASHINGTON

STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL

March 9. 1942

My dear Mr. Secretary

I refer to your request for my comment in regard
to the proposed agreement to extend financial aid to
China pursuant to Public Law 442, approved February 7,
1942, and Public Law 452, approved February 12, 1942.

The matter is, of course, one with regard to which

responsibility lies primarily with you and the Presi-

dent. In my opinion, retention of Article II of the
draft originally presented to Dr. Soong or an exchange
of letters along the lines thereof would serve useful
purposes both for the Chinese Government and for this

Government. I believe that such a provision would be

reflective of the cooperative spirit which underlies
the common war effort of the two countries and might be
of some assistance to the Chinese Government in resisting pressure from any group in China which might advocate an unwise use of any part of the funds made
available.
Realizing

FORDEFENSE

BUY
UNITED
STATES
SAVINGS

BONDS

The Honorable

Henry Morgenthau, Jr.

Secretary of the Treasury.

139
-2-

Realizing that you have considered both the economic

and the political angles of the problem, I am prepared,
in view of the opinion which you have expressed orally
that the adoption of the Chinese Government's sugges-

tions would be satisfactory, to concur in the conclusions at which you arrive and the course which you
propose.

Sincerely yours,

Dyll.

Acting Secretary

140
THE UNDER SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY
WASHINGTON

March 9, 1942
LEVORANDUL FOR THE SECRETARY:

Attached is a photostat copy of a letter we received today from
Under Secretary Welles on the question of eliminating Article II from
the draft of agreement we originally presented to Dr. Soong. In
Dr. Soong's letter of March 3. 1942, he stated that the Generalissimo

hed raised the following point with respect to Article II:

"Reactions in Chungking as to Article II appear to be that
the U. S. Government will in some way pass judgment on the uses to
which the Loan may be put, and thereby limits in some degree the
freedom of making disbursement.

"As China in any case would like to keep the Secretary informed,
and as the Secretary has in the past without any agreement always
exerted himself on every occasion to help China, he suggests that

Article II is unnecessary, since it makes of such voluntary acts
mendatory. He therefore hopes that Article II may be dropped. "

In line with our conversation a few days ago we agreed among our-

selves to drop out Article II. Representatives of the State Department
were present and while they thought that Article II WAS desirable, they
indicated their general approval or at least we thought they did. We
do not feel that we can let the letter of Under Secretary Welles' stand
on the record so we have drafted a reply which is also attached.
In view of the urgency of this matter, I am sending this to your
house.

DWB

OPDEFENSE

BUY
BONDS
JOSSUMPS

141
THE SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY
WASHINGTON

STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL

My dear Mr. Welles:

I have your letter of March 9, 1942, expressing your opinion that it would be desirable

to retain in the Agreement Article II of the
draft first presented to Dr. T. V. Soong.

It is my view that the decisive considerations governing the $500 million financial aid
to China, as well as the desirability of retaining provision for consultation and exchange of
information, are political in character.
From the point of view of protecting the
financial interests of the United States and of
safeguarding the most effective economic use of

the financial aid, the retention of Article II

would be desirable. However, the Treasury was

unwilling to take the responsibility of seriously affecting the great political and psychological value of this financial aid by insisting
upon the inclusion of this provision in view of
the reactions of Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek,

as indicated in the letter from Dr. T. V. Soong
to this Department.

I construe your letter to mean that you

believe that from a political point of view the
retention of Article II is desirable. Accordingly, unless you advise me to the contrary, I

propose to reply to Dr. Soong that, after having
taken the matter up with the State Department,

POPDEFENSE

BUY
UNITED
STATES
SEVINGS
FOONDS

142

-2it is the view of this Government that Article II
should be retained in the Agreement since it is

"reflective of the cooperative spirit which under-

lies the common war effort of the two countries
and might be of some assistance to the Chinese
Government in resisting pressure from any group
in China which might advocate an unwise use of
any part of the funds made available".

Since I feel that the time is of essence
and that we should consummate this agreement without delay, I would appreciate an answer from you

on this matter as soon as possible.
Sincerely yours,

Secretary of the Treasury.
The Honorable Summer Welles,

Under Secretary of State.

DEPARTMENT OF STATE
WASHINGTON

CTLY CONFIDENTIAL

March 9. 1942

dear Mr. Secretary:

I refer to your request for my comment in regard
to the proposed agreement to extend financial aid to
China pursuant to Public Law 442, approved February 7,
1942, and Public Law 452, approved February 12, 1942.

The matter 18, of course, one with regard to which

responsibility lies primarily with you and the Presi-

dent. In my opinion, retention of Article II of the
draft originally presented to Dr. Soong or an exchange

of letters along the lines thereof would serve useful
purposes both for the Chinese Government and for this
Government. I believe that such a provision would be

Elective of the cooperative spirit which underlies
the common war effort of the two countries and might be
or some assistance to the Chinese Government in resisting pressure from any group in China which might advoto an unwise use of any part of the funds made

lable.
Realizing
the Honorable

Henry Morgenthau, Jr.

Secretary of the Treasury.

-2-

Realizing that you have considered both the economic

and the political angles of the problem, I am prepared,
in view of the opinion which you have expressed orally
that the adoption of the Chinese Government's sugges-

tions would be satisfactory, to concur in the conclusions at which you arrive and the course which you
propose.

Sincerely yours,

Acting Secretary

Dights

145

DEPARTMENT OF STATE

Washington

In reply refer to

March 9. 1942

FD

The Secretary of State presents his compliments to the
Honorable the Secretary of the Treasury and encloses copies of
an excerpt from a telegram dated March 6, 1942, from the
American Ambassador at Chungking, China.

Enclosure:

From Embassy, Chunging

an excerpt, March 6, 1942.

eh:copy
3-9-12

C

146

0

P

Y

EXCERPT FROM TELEGRAM FROM CHUNGKING, DATED MARCH 6, 1942

"In the economic finance field, interest has centered
around the large American and British credits, granted to China
in February and the manner in which they will be employed.

Currency inflation, with resultant price rises, hoarding,
and speculation continue to be a major concern. A 'commodities

administration has been established with a view to stabilizing
prices and attacking the hoarding situation. A new land
administration has been set up ostensibly as a preparation for
dealing with land problems. Past experience does not make for

optimism with regard to the success of these organizations, but
there is some reason for hope that in present circumstances

they may attack the problems more resolutely. There are indications that the American credit might be effectively employed
as an aid toward solving these problems and to stimulating
production of consumption goods as well as to attack the

currency inflation situation.*

eh:copy
3-9-42

147

TREASURY DEPARTMENT
INTER-OFFICE COMMUNICATION

DATE March 9. 1942
TO

Secretary Morgenthau

CONFIDENTIAL

FROM Mr. Dietrich

Registered sterling transactions of the reporting banks were as follows:
Sold to commercial concerns
Purchased from commercial concerns

2 29,000
£115,000

Of the sterling purchased, £100,000 was reported to have represented the proceeds
of the export of burlap from this country to Canada.

Open market sterling remained at 4.03-3/4, with no reported transactions.
The Canadian dollar discount widened to 11-11/16%, as compared with 11-1/2%
on Saturday and 11-3/4% a week ago.

Reflecting a slight change in the rates received from Mexico City, the New

York bid and offered quotations for the Mexican peso were .2060 and .2064,
respectively, as compared with the quotations of .2055 and .2065 which have prevailed
since last December 9.

In New York, closing quotations for the foreign currencies listed below were

38 follows:

Argentine peso (free)

Brazilian milreis (free)

.2370

Venezuelan bolivar
Uruguayan peeo (free)

.0516
.5775
.2800
5295

Cuban peso

7/32% premium

Colombian peso

We sold $3,988,000 in gold to the Central Bank of the Argentine Republic,

which was earmarked for its account.

No new gold engagements were reported.

In London, spot and forward silver remained at 23-1/2d, equivalent to 42.67
The Treasury's purchase price for foreign silver was unchanged at 35t. Handy
and Harman's settlement price for foreign silver was also unchanged at 35-1/8.
We made no purchases of silver today.

148

41c
anit

Copy No. 13
BRITISH MOST SECRET

(U.S. SECRET)
OPTEL No. 80

Information received up to 7 A.M., 9th March, 1942.
1. NAVAL

FAR EAST. No news has been received from the following ships and it

is prosumed that they are lost: 2 H.M. Cruisers, 2 destroyers, 2 sloops and a
base ship. One of H.M. Cruisers has arrived safely in port.
One of H.M. trawlers was sunk by mine or torpedo south of ICELAND (c)

on the 8th. It is now known that a British tanker of medium tonnage, a 9000 ton
British merchant vessel and a small 'orvegian ship were lost in the Jave area.
A 7000 ton British Merchant ship was torpedoed on the 23rd February in outward
CONVOT far out off Newfoundland,
2. MILITARY.

Libya. 7th. Some increased enemy activity in Tmimi area. Enemy
armoured cars withdrew after being engaged by one of our infantry columns in the
area ten miles southwest of Tmimi.

Burna. No military report received.
New Guinea. Mo news of a Japanese landing at Salanaya beyond the

published report. Air reconnaissance on 5th showed 20 merchant ships at anchor
at Rabaul (New Britain).
3. AIR_OPERATIONS.

Western Front. 8th. A total of 24 Bostons were sent to attack a
power station at Comines. The railway centre, Abbeville and the Fatford factory

near Paris, Hits were seen on the two latter targets. About 480 fighters carried
out offensive operations or escorted the bombers. Enomy defensive pa trols involv

about 150 aircraft. 2 enemy fighters vero destroyed and 6 damaged. We lost 3
Spitfires and one Boston.

8th/9th. 265 aircraft, including 62 heavy bombers, were sent out.

Essen 210. Havre 12. Ostend 6. Aerodromes 21. Sea-mining 15. Preliminary
reports indicate that the attack on Essen was successful. 8 aircraft are missing
About 50 enemy aircraft operated against this country mainly off the oast coast.
Night fighters destroyed 1 and damaged another.

Libya. 6th/7th. Wellingtons bombed Benghasi and laid nines in the
harbour. One small vessel was destroyed.

Malta, 7th, 7th/8th and 8th. A total of about 150 aircraft attack
with Luga as main objective. 4 Wellingtons and one Beaufighter were damaged.

149

-Burma.

6th.

Our Divisional Headquarters, 20 miles N.E. of

Rangoon vas heavily bombed and machine-gunned.
7th.

Our fighters gave continuous protection to our troops during

their withdrawal from Rangoon and to shipping evacuating demolition parties and
civilians.
Java.

5th.

an attack north of Bandung.

The last Allied fighters were destroyed in repulsing

150
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT

COORDINATOR OF INFORMATION
WASHINGTON, D.C.
100%

IG

March 9, 1942

The Honorable

The Secretary of the Treasury

Washington, D. C.
Dear Henry:

The attached is a summary of

opinion trends in occupied France and is
based upon reliable and secret information
which has come to us.

Sincerely,

Bill

William J. Donovan
Enclosure

151

The French were tremendously depressed over the
SECURITY

fall of Singapore and the escape of the German battle-

ships, but the parachute raid on the French coast by

the British had a heartening effect out of all proportion from military significance. A flood. of rumors
of imminent Anglo-American invasion of the Continent
were unloosed.

The already pro-British feeling was stimulated
by the Billancourt raid. However, it gave German
propaganda an occasion to exploit the accusation of

indiscriminate action against civilians by the RAF.
This caused widespread ill feeling, especially in such
coastal areas as Bordeaux and Le Havre.

Because of increasingly successful radio jamming
few people in Paris are aware of Japanese shipping

losses. The listeners want only news and are averse

to talks.
A great deal of latent feeling over France's
future was brought out at the Riom trials. This brought
to light intense and widespread attachment to the idea
of a Republic which conceived however as different from

Third Republic. A strong emotional hold is had on
large sections of people with such words as "liberate".
Because of fear and the effect of French opinion
of a break between Vichy and Washington and because of

American pressure, it is generally felt that Vichy is
trying to avoid sending supplies to Rommel.

152
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT

COORDINATOR OF INFORMATION
WASHINGTON, D.C.
OF

March 9, 1942

The Honorable Henry A. Morgenthau

Secretary of the Treasury
Washington, D. C.
Dear Henry:

The attached is a report on German
home propaganda.

Sincerely,

Bill

William J. Donovan
Attachment

The Far East is still subordinated to Russia

153

in German Home Propaganda which takes the line "England

can no longer do anything to us. The British Empire is
being taken care of by Japan. Germany's only serious
enemy is Russia and when she is beaten the rest will

be easy though not of necessity short." There is no

longer a ban on stating that in certain parts of the
Eastern Front the German position has been "dangerous."
The impression is given that the German troops have

almost entirely been on the defensive, but in spite of
incredibly bad weather conditions they have repelled

all "tough and vigorous Soviet Attacks, all tasks mastered", Russians claim advances "absurd". In prophesy- -

ing the results of the coming spring offensive, great
caution is being displayed.

Churchill is personally and consistently

blamed for the "irretrievable loss" of the British
Far Eastern possessions and the "grim hopelessness"

of the allied position. The role of America is minimized as "too weak to help". Much less talks are
devoted to Japan, but 1/5 is all news.
Much greater prominence is given to the
Japanese and German sinkings of allied shipping in

the Atlantic and Pacific. Production in America is
belittled, inadequate to replace the huge losses and
"propaganda bluff".

154

-2-

ECRET
INFORMATION

The report of Petain's Comment on Billan-

court raid was given in such a way as to make it appear
that he was accusing the British openly of a cowardly
attack worse than Mers-el-Kebir.
Norwegian news was wholly suppressed includ-

ing the resignation of the Norwegian bishops.
There is no increase in general home morale

in spite of the successes of the Japanese. There is
a strong suggestion of a drop in morale among the officers--supplying upper middle classes of East and North
Germany.

As the majority of the people are so strained,
they haven't the power to concentrate and absorb exacting programs, Goebbels advised the film industry to
concentrate on producing relating entertainment.

8

155

TREASURY DEPARTMENT
INTER OFFICE COMMUNICATION

DATE March 10,1942

Secretary Morgenthau

TO

Mr. Kamarck

FROM

Summary of Intelligence Reports

Subject:

Japanese Attack on Russia

According to the French Ambassador at Tokyo, the
Japanese High Command is planning an attack on Siberia

in April to synchronize with the anticipated Nazi drive

against Russia.

(C.O.I., "The War This Week," February 26-March
5, 1942)

Distribution of Japanese Army
Divisions
Opposite Siberia

25

South Seas:
Java

8

Rest of Indies and
Malaya

Philippines

Thailand and Burme
New Britain

3

E

5

2

2

(threat to Australia)
Total South Seas

22

16

China

(plus independent
brigades)

Japan

9

Grand Total

72

(2-1/4 million men, 2,800 tanks)
(C.O.I., "The War This Week, " February 26-March 5,
1942; M.I.D. Situation Map, March 9,1942)

-. 2 -

156

Reasons for Japanese Victory in Malaya

General Wevell summarized the following factors as being
responsible for the Japanese victory in Malaya:
1. Previous war experience of the Japanese troops.

2. Good discipline and high morale of the Japanese
soldiers.

3. A high standard of Japanese training for the campaign.
4. The possession of tanks by the Japanese.

5. Japanese superiority in the air.
There is a strong probability that the divisions used in
the Malayan expedition were the crack divisions of the Japanese
army. (This list 18 revealing in giving A picture of what

actually happened. The British troops were not primarily
defeated because they had no tanks and few planes, although
lack of these did contribute to the defeat. They were beaten
because the Japanese did a better job. Tanks and airplanes
are not AS important in jungle fighting as in ordinary warfare.)
(M.I.D., Information Bulletin Number 9)
Finland

Tanner, Finnish Minister of Commerce, recently made a
speech in which he stated that since there had been no military
activity for three months, none need be anticipated. The
Censor suppressed the address, but not before the release of
it by one paper had caused wild rejoicing among the Finnish
troops.

Desertion is becoming common. Finnish troops are reported

to be disappointed at finding that the inhabitants in the

areas conquered by Finland are not Finna yearning to be free,
but rather tough enemies.

(C.O.I., "The War This Week," February 26-March 5,1942)

157

-3German Navy

(There have been a large number of alarmist rumors

about the size of the German Navy. The following is the
list of German warships, according to the British. This

is accurate, I believe. In the last war, without the

highly developed aerial reconnaissance of the present day,
the British always had An accurate picture of German naval

strength. In this war, concealment of a major naval unit
on the part of the Germans is well-nigh impossible.)
Battleships

Tirpitz, (35,000 tons. )

No sister ships are under construction. (Evidently,
construction of ships "H" and "I", originally
planned to form with the Bismarck and Tirpitz
battle-line of four ships, has been Abandoned.)
a

Battle Cruisers
Gneisenau, (26,000 tons)
Scharnhorst (26,000 tons)
Pocket Battleships
Luetzow, (10,000 tons)
Admiral Scheer, (10,000 tons)
Heavy Cruisers

Hipper, (10,000 tons)
Prinz Eugen, (10,000 tone)
One under construction

Light Cruisers

Four light cruisers (8,000 tons and under)
Aircraft Carrier
Graf Zepplin

(British Ministry of Information, March 6, 1942)

--

158

VOICE OF THE CHIEF BROADCASTS

Rommel

(General Erwin Rommel is described as A man whose vanity

and ambition know no bounds.) "What sent the S.S. strategist
to Rome, is not the welfare of his troops. It is the welfare
and career of Herr Erwin Rommel. He wants to get the supreme
command over the Mediterranean region, with all German and

Italian land and sea forces and the air force under Field
Marshal General von Kesselring under his brilliant leadership.
"It is that same pernicious illusion of grandeur which
led Rommel to leave two valuable divisions with all equipment
in Bardia and Halfya to their fate. Rommel imagined he could
always get them out again.

"Rommel, with his excellent connections to Himmler the
Almighty, promised the Italians German tanks, planes, U-boats.
Those promises are akin to the lies he has told his own troops.
To instill them with the wrong kind of courage, he pretended
that Moscow hed fallen, that the Russian campaign was as good
AS finished. These are the methods employed by a man who was
not even sent to a war academy before an army WAS entrusted
to him.

"Rommel was able to redeem himself in Libya only by the

fact that reinforcements of tanks and planes were sent to him
after being taken away from the Eastern front, thereby upsetting
the immeasurably more important offensive against the Russians.

The S.S. in Russia

(The Chief devotes an entire broadcast to the refusal of

Gestago Chief Himmler and his) "shyster group leaders to gamble

any more of his costly S.S. formations in the dangerous enterprises at the front. The fighting and dying 18 left exclusively
to the Wehrmacht while the S.S. get their special training

by the perpetration of cruelties against prisoners, civilians
and disarmed masses. If

"A unit of Field Marshal von Bock's army, holding a sector
Lodowaya, had lost 135 officers and 2,700 men. There

near was danger of the enemy breaking through in that sector. It Field
Marshal von Bock was unable to move up his reserves.
looked dangerous and only a swift and unusual decision could

have saved the situation.

-5-

159

"The only non-combatant formation in the immediate

vicinity was the 131st S.S. police regiment. The Field
Marshal personally got in touch immediately with the

commander, Von Bach-Stalewski, at Moghilev, and requested

the services of that regiment: Von Bach-Stalewski was
merely to pinch-hit until von Bock's own reserves could
arrive. Suddenly, von Bach-Stalewski became hard of hearing and made evasions: he said his regiment had neither

artillery nor tanks and therefore could not fight. In

conclusion, he promised to come to headquarters and talk
matters over. But Field Marshal von Bock needed no BachStalewski at his headquarters. What he needed was a regiment at the front. And at once. After a short decision,
the Field Marshal got in touch with General Deluege
(Commander in Chief of the S.S. police troops) and two

hours later, the police regiment received the order to move
up.

"Unfortunately, this occurred too late. The enemy

had already broken through and was advancing in the

direction of Pavlograd. The S.S. regiment got a thorough
thrashing. Here, they had to shoot at Russians -- who were
neither disarmed nor prisoners of war. There were a couple

of old sergeants. Those fought bravely. But the rest of
the S.S. leadership balks description. In the heat of the
battle, the S.S. regimental commander and his A.D.C.
vanished, presumably to report in person to their General
on the situation. These should have been shot outright

If it only were possible to get S.S. men of such caliber
before a court martial!

"Lodowaya was lost, and Pavlovach, too, went to the
dickens. The whole damned thing had to be retaken later.
This, to be sure, WAS quite immaterial to Von Bach-Stalewski.
But that his proud 131st regiment had been battered into

smithereens, he could not get over. He made quite a stink
over it. Now he calmly takes the cure for his gallstones.
As for the Fatherland, here we have one more proof of the
willingness of the S.S. Bolshevike to do their part at the
front.'

(Foreign Broadcast Monitoring Service, Federal
Communications Commission, March 9, 1942.)

160

March 10, 1942

Mr. Duffue
The Secretary

What would you think of A1 Jolson as a
community song leader? Let me know by memo,

and send the memo direct to Mrs. Klotz, please.

well
c
pr, time serv 2/13

I sturs 3/13-

Mr. Puffus chased
with Mrs. Kletz on the
phone-

161

March 10, 1942

Lieutenant Stephens
The Secretary

Please call up Senator Harry Byrd's secretary
and ask him when he's going to have the next meeting
of his Economy Committee, of which I'm a member.

phone at 10

meeting shows

162
March 10, 1942
10:25 a.m.

HMJr:
Summer

Hello.

Welles:

Good morning, Henry.

HMJr:

How are you?

Fine, thanks.

W:

HMJr:

Look, Summer, I have your letter before me
in regard to the Chinese.
Yeah.

W:

HMJr:

Now, in the sentence, taken by itself, that
says, "In my opinion, the retention of Article
two of the Draft originally presented to Dr.
Soong are along the lines which serve useful
purposes. # See?
Yeah.

W:

HMJr:

Well, I don't know whether you intentionally or
not, but that puts the State Department on
record that they think that that should be in.
Do you know what Article two is?

W:

HMJr:

I wouldn't have written the letter unless I'd

known what was in it.
Well

W:

Certainly I feel that way.

HMJr:

You feel that way.

W:

Why, surely. I think it would have been a much
sounder document, but since the

HMJr:

All right. Well, then, you - as long as you
feel that way, you take full responsibility
then for throwing down what Chiang Kai-shek

wants.
W:

No, I don't take any responsibility for throwing
anything down. As I said in my letter, I think

163

-2-

the responsibility in this financial trans-

action clearly is the President's and particularly yours as Secretary of the Treasury.
HMJr:
W:

HMJr:

Yeah, but you're making a record for yourself.

I'm not in the habit of doing that.
Well, I was trying to approach it in a friendly
fashion, otherwise - I've got a letter written
that I can throw back - it's just as smart as
the letter that you've written, almost as smart.

W:

Well, Henry, I'm not in the habit of trying to

write smart letters. After all, in nine years'
experience with me, I don t think you have any
reason to say that.

HMJr:

W:

Well, I distinctly feel - I mean - to that what
this letter 18, and if. you want to leave it that
way, that's all right, and
I think it would in the long run - I think the
arrangement probably would have worked out

better if we'd suggested to Chiang Kai-shek
that some arrangement for consultation with
you would have been wise.

HMJr:

You know, I called you up on the phone and put
you on notice how your own people felt; and then

I said that I thought it would be much better to
take it the way the Chinese wanted it, and you

said, "Yes, I think - I agree with you."

W:

HMJr:
W:

HMJr:

Well, I thought, of course, when you were speaking
on the telephone, Henry, that you were referring
to the general draft of the agreement that had
been sent in.
Oh.

You see, I didn't get your letter when you
promised it at two o'clock, and I didn't have
a chance to see it until early Sunday morning.

Well, Bell said he'd have it over there at two.
I don't know when it got over there.

-W:

HMJr:

W:

HMJr:

W:

164

I think it came over about - they told me about
seven
o'clock, 80 I didn't have a chance to see
the

Well, all I know is that Bell said he'd have it
there at two.

Yeah. Well, it wasn't here, 80 I didn't have an
opportunity of considering it until Sunday; and
in going over it
Well, that has nothing - that wouldn't make any
difference if it got there at two or at seven,
I mean, as far as this letter 18 concerned.

Well, if I'd had the opportunity of studying it

on Saturday afternoon, I could have probably
have had an opportunity of talking with you
personally about it; but since you wanted the
reply early yesterday morning, Monday, with the

other things that I have on my hands it's not
possible to give as much time as I should like
to.

HMJr:
W:

Yeah

But I think the general arrangement contained
in Article two to which you refer, was a much

easier way for us to work it out with a view

to the future. After all, neither you nor I

know whether Chiang Kai-shek 18 going to be
murdered tomorrow and whether somebody else 18

going to step into his place. If that happens,

we have absolutely no assurance whatever as to

the disposition of those funds.

HMJr:

Oh, as Secretary of the Treasury, I'd like to
have all kinds of safeguards; but the spirit under
which the thing was undertaken, I thought we were
going to try to please them as much as possible.

Well, I thought, Henry, that if you had sent

back a message to Chiang Kai-shek, possibly rephrasing Article two 80 that there would be some

provision for consultation with you in the future,
that probably it would have been a better and a
wiser procedure; and that is the reason that I
suggested that.

165

HMJr:

Do you want

After all, 80 far as I can understand, the only

reason for this tremendous urgency 18 the anniversary
on Thursday; and that doesn't seem to me a BUF-

ficiently important reason to jam it through
quickly without at least making the effort to

give you some opportunity for wise advice as to
the disposal of those funds.

HMJr:
W:

But you want your letter to stand.

What I'm anxious to do is to try, 1f possible,

and get that provision amended 80 that there 18
some opportunity for cooperation with you in
the future on the part of the Chinese Government.

HMJr:

I say you want your letter to stand.

W:

I don't want it to stand at all 80 long as the
arrangement can be worked out.

HMJr:

Well, of course - I mean, with your letter, it

leaves me nothing else to do but to follow what
you've said, and that's what I'm going to do.

W:

Well, don't you think it's wise to try and get

them to agree to some provision for cooperation

and consultation?
HMJr:
W:

Well

Every other arrangement that we've made with
every other government has had something of

that kind in it.

HMJr:

Well, but this loan is unique.

W:

Certainly it's unique. I quite agree with you.

HMJr:

And in testifying before the Senate, I told them in the House they said, "How much could we get
back?" I said, "You start with zero, and anything
above that would be your own guess.
"

W:

Well, I think that's a perfectly fair statement.

166

-5-

I think it's a political loan, naturally.
HMJr:
W:

Yeah.

I quite agree with you, and I certainly would
rather go ahead with it on the basis you now
have it than not go ahead at all; but if sending
back a friendly message saying that you feel that
it would be helpful to have some cooperative
arrangement inserted there if you can get it,
I think it would be a better document than it
now 18.

HMJr:

W:

HMJr:

W:

Oh, no question about it; but on the other hand,
if it irritates Chiang Kai-shek and - seriously then the whole loan might not as well be made.
Well, we haven't even tried, have we?
Oh, yes. The original we gave - we gave an
original set of copies of the papers to Soong.
Then Soong wrote back saying that Chiang Kai-shek

would prefer to have that omitted.
HMJr:
W:

That's right.
But I don't think that you sent any personal

message to Chiang Kai-shek from this Government,

saying why you thought it would be desirable to

retain something of that kind in it.
HMJr:

No.

W:

That was what I wanted to suggest.

HMJr:

No. Well, I'll answer your letter and then you
people can give us a suggestion what the next
step should be.

W:

Well, I've already just told you what I think
the wise thing to do would be, and that is to

either do it through Soong or direct to Chiang

Kai-shek, suggesting that there be some rephrasing
of that 80 as to provide for some measure of
cooperation on your part.

HMJr:

Well, will you have something drafted for me?

167

-6W:

I'd be delighted to, Henry.

HMJr:

All right.

W:

Now, do you want me to wait for your letter,
or send it over without waiting?

HMJr:

You'd better wait for my letter.

W:

All right.

HMJr:
W:

Thanks.

All right, Henry, thanks.

168

March 10, 1942
11:00 am

AID TO CHINA

Present:

Mr. Bell

Mr. White

Mr. Viner
Mr. Bernstein
Mr. Southard

H.M.JR: I read this correspondence here with

Welles, and then I called him up on the phone and had

quite an acrimonious discussion with him. I asked him
if he knew what Article Two was. He said, "I supposed

I had put it in." I said, "Well, of course, you have

written me a smart letter, and I don't know that we
can write you a smarter one, but do you really want
this to stand on the record?" So he said, "Yes, yes,

I think it is important," so I said, "Well, I called

you Saturday, and you agreed to leave it out." He
said, "Well, you said you would have a letter over too,

and it never got here until seven." I said, "Well,
Bell told me he would have it there at two. I didn't
have a chance to study it."

MR. BELL: It wasn't seven, but it was three thirty.
MR. BERNSTEIN: In the middle of the afternoon.

Three thirty.

MR. BELL: At three thirty Bernie was in my office
and said that the letter had just gone over.
H.M.JR: "Well, anyway," said, "what difference
does that make?' "Well," he said, "what makes you think

that you can't get them to agree?" I said, "Well, I

thought the whole idea - you know they don't want to,
and why take a risk at this time?" So he said, "Well,

we can send back a message suggesting a few changes

169

-2-

and so on." I said, "Well, fix it up." He said, "Well,
do you want me to fix it up now, or wait until I get
your letter?" I said, "You had better wait until you

get my letter." I said, "If you want to make a record--"

He says, "We are not trying to make a record," and I said,
"Well, I think you are; and if you are trying to make a
record, as Secretary of the Treasury naturally I want all
the safeguards, but I thought we were trying to please
General Chiang Kai-shek." I said, "I thought that was
the whole purpose," So I suppose there isn't much left
for me to do but to send this letter and then just add
a P.S. I would be glad to receive suggestions from you
on what we do next. If Of course, the thing that bothers
me is, here between the State Department and ourselves we get

into a two-by-four row, and their attitude is, to hell

with Chiang Kai-shek, it is to see which fellow can be
the smarter.

MR. BELL: It really wasn't a row at all, and I was
quite surprised to get that letter, because I thought

that when they left our conference the other day that
while they preferred to have Section Two in, they thought
the situation justified our going ahead.
MR. SOUTHARD: Mr. Bell, as it turns out Mr.
Hamilton's performance at the meeting was in part - it
was his performance - it was one in which he was right
either way it went. He told you he thought Two should

stay in, but then he just passively agreed that all

right, it could stay out.

MR. WHITE: There is another alternative, Mr.
Secretary.

H.M.JR: Well, there isn't much alternative now.

MR. WHITE: A different kind of letter. He hasn't
seen that letter.
H.M.JR: No, no. "I have your letter of March 9
expressing your opinion that it would be desirable
to retain in the Agreement Article Two of the draft
first presented to Soong.

170

-3"It is my view that decisive considerations
governing the five hundred million as well as the

desirability of retaining the provision for consultation and exchange of information, are political in

character.

"From the point of view of protecting the financial
interests of the United States and of safeguarding the
most effective economic use of the financial aid, the
retention of Article Two would be desirable. However,
the Treasury was unwilling to take the responsibility of
seriously affecting the great political and psychological
value of this financial aid by insisting upon the inclusion of this provision in view of the reactions of Generalissimo
Chiang Kai-shek, as indicated in the letter from Dr. T. V.
Soong to this Department.

"I construe your letter to mean that you believe

that from a political point of view the retention of

Article Two is desirable. Accordingly, unless you advise
me to the contrary, I propose to reply to Dr. Soong that,
after having taken the matter up with the State Department,
it is the view of this Government that Article Two should
be retained __" No I would stop there. I would stop
right here and say, In view - from T. V. Soong to this
Department," then a new paragraph, and simply say, "In

the light of our telephone conversation, I would be very
glad to receive suggestions from you as to how to proceed

from this point.' You see, "In the light of our telephone

conversation, I would be very glad to receive suggestions
from the State Department how we should proceed. You

can say, "In the light of the political nature of this
loan and in view of our telephone conversation, I would
be glad to receive suggestions. In the light of the
political nature of this loan - " have you said that it
is political?

MR. BERNSTEIN: We can work that out, Mr. Secretary.

I think we have your idea clearly enough.

H.M.JR: He said, "We can redraft Article Two, you
see, and go back to Chiang Kai-shek again." Well, I

simply want to say, "In view of the light of your - will

171

-4you suggest
meus
what
- what the State Department
would
like totosee
do you
next?'

MR. WHITE: Does that leave that paragraph in in
which you say, We would like as much financial paragraph protec-

tion as possible"?

MR. SOUTHARD: The essential part is left in, and
you have said the other in your telephone conversation,

after all. You have already said orally the harsh stuff
at the end.

H.M.JR: I have said that. I simply said, "You
tried to pull a fast one on us. In nine years I have

never tried to do that." "Well,"I said, "all right,

you people want it in, and you say that you think we
could go back to Chiang Kai-shek again - " you can get
my conversation. You had better get my conversation,
you see.

MR. WHITE: Well, I think it is true that the
inclusion of that part in the letter makes this a smart
letter. I think you are quite right; and if you leave
that part out, and merely ask them specifically for-suggestions, is it, you are asking for?
MR. BELL: How to proceed from this point.

H.M.JR: Now, he said over the phone, "You will see we can go back to him - " He said, 'You haven't tried to
go
back to him again." I said, "No, because I thought
that that was the whole purpose of the loan, and I didn't

want to risk this thing. He said, "Well, you have always
had protection before. I said, 'This loan is unique.
If I say so, I think I was pretty good. I mean, he got
mad, and the surprising thing is, you see, where I have

a little advantage over these fellows, I very rarely get

mad these days. The only trouble is that when I get mad,

I get results, and it is very bad for me, Bernie. I get
Well, that is the way to get it," but the other day at

mad, and then Bernie does me a beautiful job, and I say,

172

-5Cabinet I was amazed at Welles. In a very quiet way

Henry Wallace said something about some planes in South

America and that Rockefeller has consulted with Welles.

Welles said, "It isn't so. So the Vice-President was

very firm. He said, "Sumner, Rockefeller says he posi-

tively has." "It absolutely is not so," to the Vice-

President. The Vice-President said, "I am sorry, there
times like that. In other words, his nerves were like
Donald Nelson's the other day. They are beginning to go.

must be some misunderstanding." And he said it three

MRS. KLOTZ: But toward the end he was very sweet.

H.M.JR: He got worried. So I think this. We

can write the thing, asking them what we should do next.

If you people will come in about two thirty, I will be
ready for you. Anybody question my procedure?
MR. SOUTHARD: It sounds excellent.

H.M.JR: Anybody question it? Bernie?

MR. BERNSTEIN: No, I think it is fine.
H.M.JR: Now if after all they want to go back he said they are going to redraft Article Two and send
it back-MR. SOUTHARD: It is their responsibility.

H.M.JR: It is their responsibility, and he has

asked it.

MR. SOUTHARD: And it should be their responsi-

bility. That is the whole point.

.M.JR: Well, this is a very tricky thing. "The

matter is, of course, one with regard to which responsi-

bility lies primarily with you and the President. In my

opinion retention of Article Two in the draft presented to
Dr. Soong should be left in."

173

-6MR. BERNSTEIN: And then on the next page, they

said you had considered the economic and political

aspects.

H.M.JR: I said, "Look, Summer, you just lift this
one sentence out and let it stand by itself, and there
is nothing left for me to do, and I am just as anxious as
you are, as Secretary of the Treasury, to have protection,
but I am also more interested in pleasing Chiang Kai-check."
MR. BELL: That will look beautiful ten years from now.
MR. SOUTHARD: That is a perfect letter for that
purpose.

H.M.JR: Well, he is trying to make the record so we

go back--

MRS. KLOTZ: That is what you said to him, he is
trying to make a record.

H.M.JR: And that is what he got angry about. I
think we can use this first part and simply say, "In the
light of our conversation, we would be very glad to

receive suggestions from you as to how we should proceed
from here.

MR. WHITE: With a phrase that we fully appreciate
that we need to act very quickly.

MR. BELL: Soong is calling me this morning. I haven't

called him back.

H.M.JR: Oh yes, in the thing he said, "What is the

use?" Just because they have a holiday on Thursday, "What

is the use of hurrying?"
MR. BELL: Gosh, they have lost Rangoon. I should

think it would be pretty important.

H.M.JR: All right, put in something about - you can
say, "I feel that no time should be lost.

174

-7-

MR. WHITE: That is right. After all, this is

already--

H.M.JR: " I would say, "I feel that no time should
be lost.
MR. WHITE: Chiang Kai-chek has given his answer
over ten days ago.

H.M.JR: Now, I keep this. Have you people got

the stuff? This is for my record. Now, don't "yes"

me.

MR. SOUTHARD: Oh, no.

H.M.JR: Because, after all, we are talking about
the whole Chinese-Indian situation, gentlemen. Bernie,
the Chinese-Indian situation is what we are playing for,
and I am perfectly willing to crawl on my hands from

here to the State Department if I could save China and
India.

MR. SOUTHARD: That was the only question that came

up in our minds yesterday, what would happen if the State
Department insisted on keeping Article Two in. Wouldn't

we then be willing to do it.

MR. BELL: Well, we are just as anxious as they are,
Mr. Secretary, to have Article Two, but we had to bear

in mind all of this situation over there, and that is the
reason we didn't want to ask Soong.

H.M.JR: Well, that is what they should be doing.
If you see my conversation, I think you will be pleased
with it, and Welleson second thought - he is nobody's

fool. We will throw this right back in his lap, and it
is his responsibility, and believe me, he is not going

to let me say that we lost Chiang Kai-chek because Sumner

Welles wanted to protect the financial interests of this
country.

MR. WHITE: Well, that is exactly what this letter it puts him on that spot.

175

-8H.M.JR: But, Harry, I don't like to do business

that way in these times.

MR. WHITE: Well, we didn't start this, Mr. Secretary.
There was no intention on our part of doing this. When

we got this letter from them, which we felt left no out-H.M.JR: Right.
MR. BELL: And we are in a position where--

H.M.JR: If you bring this back to me at two thirty,
see. I want this for my files.
MR. BELL: We are in a position where we feel that
we can't talk to Soong, because he telegraphs it right
back
to the Generalissimo. Everything you say to him goes
back.

H.M.JR: I told him, I said - he said, "Well, you

have never asked him.' I said, "Well, we sent this thing
back to him, and this came back." You will see. I knew
my taxes, and he wasn't - at first he was very, very
brusk, and then he kind of ran off into honey.

17G

STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL

My dear Mr. Nelles:

I have your letter of March 9, 1942, expressing your opinion that it would be desirable

to retain in the Agreement Article II of the
draft first presented to Dr. T. V. Soong.

It is my view that the decisive considerstione governing the 8500 million financial aid
to China, as well as the desirability of retaining provision for consultation and exchange of
information, are political in character.

the II

financial
of
safeguarding use of
would
was
unwilling
to
seriously psychology
From the point of view of protecting the

upon of
ical

affecting financial value the be inclusion desirable. interests of the the take aid, this most great the of the financial of However, responsibility effective this political retention the provision United aid the economic by of and States Treasury Article insisting in of view and

the reactions of Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek,

as indicated in the letter from Dr. T. V. Soong
to this Department.

I construe your letter to mean that you

believe that from a political point of view the
retention of Article II is desirable. Accordingly, unless you advise me to the contrary, I

propose to reply to Dr. Soong that, after having
taken the matter up with the State Department,

177
-2-

it is the view of this Government that Article II

should be retained in the Agreement since it is
"reflective of the cooperative spirit which underlies the common war effort of the two countries
and might be of some assistance to the Chinese
Government in resisting pressure from any group
in China which might advocate an unwise use of
any part of the funds made available".

Since I feel that the time is of essence
and that we should consummate this agreement wd th

out delay, I would appreciate an answer from you
on this matter as soon as possible.
Sincerely yours,

Secretary of the Treasury.
The Honorable Summer Helles,

Under Secretary of State.

HDW:BB:FAS:dmh

3-9-12.

178

TREASURY DEPARTMENT

Washington

Press Service

FOR RELEASE, MORNING NEWSPAPERS,

No. 30-61

Tuesday, March 10, 1942.
3/9/42

The Secretary of the Treasury announced last evening that the
tenders for $150, 000, 000, or thereabouts, of 91-day Treasury bille,
to be dated March 11 and to mature June 10, 1942, which were
offered on March 6, were opened at the Federal Reserve Banks on
March 9.

The details of this issue are as follows:
Total applied for - $471,349,000

Total accepted - 150,194,000

Range of accepted bids:

High - 100,
Low - 99.938 Equivalent rate approximately 0.245 percent
Average

Price - 99.942

0.229

"

(17 percent of the amount bid for at the low price was accepted)
-00o-

179

March 10, 1942
11:20 a.m.
FINANCING

Present: Mr. Viner
Mr. Bell

Mr. Stewart

Mr. Buffington
Mr. Murphy
Mr. Haas
Mr. Lindow

H.M.JR: All right, Bell.
MR. BELL: I suppose yesterday we went over all
of that material that we need to, didn't we, George?
MR. HAAS: Yes, the Secretary asked us to look into
this reserve thing and mention some specific criteria.
Henry has got some suggestions on that.

H.M.JR: Did you talk to Eccles?

MR. BELL: Yes, and I didn't get very far. He

argued for an hour but wound up by saying that he would

give it consideration and be prepared to talk again in
a day or two. I told him you would probably want to

talk to him before we went ahead here very much further
and that that would be one of the problems we would have
to discuss, and he said all right, he would be prepared

to discuss it, but he argued very strenuously against it.
H.M.JR: Why is he opposed to it?

180

-MR. BELL: He said he didn't think you could fix
any minimum. One minimum one time might not be a good

minimum for another time. He thought that wasn't the

problem at all, that what you are interested in is

keeping a good market and seeing that you can finance
2

this program within the range of rates that you fixed.
He said two and a half was the limit and then it is up
to the Federal Reserve to see that the market is in such
shape that you could all the time finance within that
limit, and he thought that that was their responsibility,
and t hey would have to assume that. Now, whatever level
of reserves would be required, they would have to see

that they were there. That is his main argument.
H.M.JR: Well, you have worked on this?
MR. HAAS: Henry has got some suggestions.

H.M.JR: Let's hear them, Henry.
MR. MURPHY: Here is a chart you can look at. We
have a chart which shows the recent movement of excess

reserves and the long and short rates so that you will

have the factual background. We have worked up as possible

bases for a definite agreement three alternative bases.
First, increase excess reserves by at least three hundred
million a month until total excess reserves exceed five
billion and excess reserves in New York City is two billions, these levels to be maintained thereafter. The
figures might be changed, but that is one type of a
basis of agreement we might have. Another type is, the
Federal Reserve banks to purchase an amount of Govern-

ment securities equal to twenty percent of the net increase in total open market securities. This to continue
until the levels of excess reserves specified in one
have been attained. This level of excess reserves to be
maintained thereafter. The twenty percent would not only
offset the increases in reserve requirements due to bank
consumption but would also provide a continuing backlog
to increase the supply of excess reserves, and the one

that we are inclined to - the type of basis that we are
inclined to prefer is the third. Increase excess reserves
by at least three hundred million in every month, in

181

-3which the long-term taxable average is more than two
thirty or the money as long-term taxable average is
now - now yield two forty-seven, so if an agreement
of the last type were made using those figures, they
would agree to increase excess reserves by three hundred
a month until either the '67-'72's had gone up - had gone

up until they yielded only two forty or the long-term -

both that and the long-term average had fallen in yield

to two thirty. That would provide an objective criteria
and would prevent further disputes if it is expressed
this way in figures.
H.M.JR: Well, you couldn't tie into that something
for the short-term rate too?
MR. MURPHY: Well, the idea is that the short-term

rate would be kept flexible at such a level as would
support the long-term rate, that the long-term rate

would be the only stated objective and the immediate
impact of the excess reserves would be on the short-

term rate and that will propagate itself out to the

long-term rate.

H.M.JR: You feel sure of that?
MR. MURPHY: I feel sure that that would be the
tendency. I have no idea what short-term rate would be
necessary to maintain a given long-term rate.

H.M.JR: This is the idea of my mechanical pari-

mutuel, is it?

MR. HAAS: That is right.

H.M.JR: It is not bad, Henry, for overnight.

(Laughter) What would you do in two nights?

MR. STEWART: Go down to two percent, wouldn't you?

H.M.JR: It is not bad.
MR. BELL: That would mean the total excess reserves

of about five billion?

182

-4MR. HAAS: Well, this other one - you have no top

on the third suggestion. You just look at the rates

and see what is necessary.

MR. MURPHY: They might not have to buy any if the
rates-MR. BELL: Were between two forty and - on the

long-term?

MR. MURPHY: Yes, if the rate was below two forty

on the '67-'72's and two thirty on the long-term.
MR. BELL: Below two forty?

MR. MURPHY: If the rate was below two forty. The
price of course would be higher.

MR. BELL: That is what I was thinking. What does
that mean in terms of prices for '67-'72, about one
something premium?

MR. MURPHY: Two and a half.

MR. BELL: Oh, really?

MR. MURPHY: I haven't figured it out in price.

H.M.JR: At first blush that number three looks very
interesting.
MR. BUFFINGTON: I was just wondering if there was

any assurance that the three hundred million increase a
month would necessarily keep those rates at those levels.

MR. LINDOW: It wouldn't tie in. The three hundred
wouldn't have anything to do with the third one of tying
into the rates. The third one is independent, in which,
if the rate goes to a certain point, you have to buy three
hundred.

MR. HAAS: Next month they have got to do it again.

183

-5MR. LINDOW: Three hundred more?

MR. HAAS: That is right.
H.M.JR: What would you think if you simply said

"increased reserves by that amount, leaving the amount

blank, which will attain the following results"?

MR. VINER: I think that that seems to me desirable
except that they technically could keep that agreement
by making very, very slight purchases at a rate which

doesn't correct the situation, you see, and I take it

that this three hundred million minimum is an attempt

to force them to act not necessarily sufficiently but

at least actual minimum degree of action.
MR. LINDOW: That is right.

MR. VINER: And yet I think that is too rigid. I
think you would have to work out something between those
two whereby the obligation is for sufficient action but

where you don't tell them how much is sufficient.

MR. MÜRPHY: Well, that would be sort of like keep-

ing buying silver until the proportion were one-quarter

in the monetary reserves, but no statement as to how soon
that objective had to be attained or how much progress
you had to make on it in any given month.

MR. VINER: Well, I would prefer their weekly rate,
you see. A lot can happen in a month. Theoretically
here they would have to keep on for a month. I would
prefer a weekly rate.
MR. STEWART: How would it be to have a combination

of the weekly rate of purchase with an amount to be
maintained in New York City? Then you would have an
amount of purchase in the open market aimed at the
maintenance of a given rate, whatever rate is decided,
and until excess reserves in New York City are maintained

at a certain level of excess.

MR. VINER: Well, there you would have the problem

184

-6that what you were doing was too much for one purpose.

MR. STEWART: But there is some limit. It
conceivable, you see, that through excess

maintain
reserves
There
even youis
couldn't
the
rate.
It
is
conceivable.
some place at which you might stop, but you wouldn't
stop until
had level.
built up excess reserves in New York
City
to a you
certain
VINER: I see, yes. Whichever one is reached
first, MR.
then?
MR. STEWART: Yes.

MR. BELL: Henry, in our discussions with the Board,

we have referred to long-term two and a half's as falling
in the early '60's. Would we need a yield rate of two
thirty - between two thirty and two forty on the '67-'72's
to get a security in the early '60's on a two and a half
basis, market security?

MR. MURPHY: Well, of course we--

MR. BELL: You could do better than that, couldn't
you?

MR. MURPHY: You could put out another '67-'72.

MR. BELL: Yes, if you had the price you just suggested, you could put out another '67-'72 and wouldn't

we be satisfied if the yield on the '67-'72 is kept
between two forty and two fifty?

MR. MURPHY: Of course it is two forty-seven right

now. It seemed to me that it was necessary that it be
boosted - the price be boosted enough to provide an
element of insecurity to the holders, such as Mr. Stewart

was suggesting yesterday. If the yield of the '67-'72's

is lowered enough, the price was raised enough so that
the holding of them represents a real risk as compared
to the short-term money, you have got a better change of
maintaining your pattern of rate and a less chance that

they will be considered to be demand money. You remember

that when we were discussing the ten basis points range

185

-7 of fluctuation in the meeting in your office yesterday
morning, it was said that that couldn't be around two

fifty. It probably couldn't even be from two forty to
two fifty. It would have to be a level which maintains

your two and a half percent rate and still maintains
the essential insecurity of long-term securities, and
therefore the superiority of short-term money.
MR. BELL: We said we couldn't maintain a level

between two forty and two sixty. In other words, it
couldn't be ten points each side of two fifty. It has
got to be some place below two fifty.

MR. MURPHY: I don't think it could have two fifty
ment that two fifty is the floor and then we allow rates
to fall to exactly that floor, then long-term money is
as one of its ends either, because if we make a commit-

a safe commitment. If your floor is two fifty, it

seems to me your range of fluctuation has to be perhaps

from two thirty-five to forty-five in order to provide

a constant - always have a risk in your long security.
Does that implement your point?

MR. STEWART: Yes, the amounts I don't know, but

that is the logical--

MR. MURPHY: I mean the general idea.

H.M.JR: Well, personally I think we have made a

little headway, but I just want to throw this to you so

that you people don't think you are working up to a
crescendo and then find that there isn't going to be any.

It is going to be practically impossible for you people

to get me to join -the Federal Reserve on a statement on

the two and a half percent rate. Do you mind if I quote

you, Walter?

MR. STEWART: No. I don't remember what I said.

H.M.JR: Walter Stewart said what I would be building
up - he didn't use the word, "a Frankenstein", but I used
it, he said would be building up another gold standard so

186

-8 when we went off the two and a half percent rate it
would become a thing of great financial importance just
as
when weso
went
off the gold standard. Am I putting
it correctly
far?
MR. STEWART: Yes.

H.M.JR: And why do it, and it would be tying my
hands.
Isn't that what you said?
MR. STEWART: Yes. Tying your hands so long as

long-termfinancing is concerned. Then you would have to

look for other alternatives.

H.M.JR: Now, I just - one reason Roosevelt put me
into the Treasury was to untie his hands on the gold
standard, and I don't see why it is necessary or wise,
in view of the changing situation every day, for me to
join anybody in a statement that two and a half percent

is going to be the rate, because you can't do it. Now,

you can grope toward it and, if they have come along on

a formula like that, we can approach it, but all my

instincts cry out against doing it. I have been that

way now for how many months?

MR. BELL: Well, we first approached it in November,

I think.

H.M.JR: Yes. I am afraid you fellows just - I

work on instinct, which I suppose is based on accumulated
experiences. When you get a hardheaded fellow like Walter
Stewart who does everything with a slide rule and has no
emotions, and he arrives at the same conclusion inde-

pendently, I just want to let you know - I mean, if you
think, well, we are going to come up toward that, and
when we get to this point, this is what we are going to
do--

MR. STEWART: May I make an observation there?

H.M.JR: Do you want to claim you have got emotions?

MR.. STEWART: I fear that I haven't got any. I

187

-9understand the instinct of freedom. The real question
of analysis is how much freedom have you got? Because
any one would like to have what he wants and preserve
his freedom. You already have some commitments, both
in the market on your long-term securities and some

commitments on your restricted issues, and I think the
subject of inquiry is not what you would like, but the
degree to which you haven't got a free hand:already. You
have got a structure of rates, part of which you are
committed to on these restricted non-negotiable securities,
part of which are in the market already, so that the
margin of freedom that you have is not as - without
consequences is not as wide.

H.M.JR: Well, I know I am surrounded by a fence,
but why make the fence higher and why charge it with
electric current?
MR. STEWART: If you say why make a statement,

that I am in sympathy with. I must say, for myself, I am
very dubious about the advisability of a statement to a
public which you cannot be sure when you make it that

you are going to fulfill it without foregoing other
advantages.

H.M.JR: What?

MR. STEWART: I agree with that.
H.M.JR: Statement or no statement?
MR. STEWART: No statement. A policy which conceivably could be worked out with the Federal Reserve,
but to my mind, no statement.

MR. VINER: You may recall that I have always been

reluctant to recommend a statement, particularly a very
definite one, but I have been converted to the belief
that you will have more freedom if you do make a statement like the one that has been discussed here in which
you say that the Treasury plans not to finance at higher
rates than two and a half, but don't say anything about
maturities, and that you won't have a program without

188

- 10 -

the statement to the public, because the Federal Reserve
and Treasury don't work quickly enough together and
harmoniously enough together and one or the other of
them doesn't keep its understandings to the other faithfully enough so that you will have anything to count on
unless you have protected it by a statement to the

public, and I really think that you ought to be seriously

concerned as to whether you can sell securities to the
banks without pressure if you don't give them assurances
that they are not going to have capital losses.

H.M.JR: Well, I am sorry, but that doesn't make it that doesn't make a dent. I would like to go along,
gentlemen, with you. I would like to have you explore
this for me at once, see. This is the thing which would
make
the two and a half percent thing realistic, wouldn't
it?
MR. BELL: Probably it would. I don't know that

it is--

H.M.JR: Well, let's put it this way. This is the

way I would like to approach it. Now, I know you have
got something tailored in the short-term. I know you
have got something ready in the long-term. I am ready
to go to town any day on that.
MR. BELL: Well, I think we ought to get going on

that, whether you do the other thing or not. If we are

going to make a statement, the Federal was going to join
us, and we would come out at the same time and say,
"Here is a short-term and a long-term security that would
pick up these current available funds. "

H.M.JR: Well, Dan, I will not start launching this

plan of having the Federal Reserve start selling these
securities until I can get an agreement with them on
excess reserves. I make that as--

MR. BELL: You mean you won't go along with a short-

term issue?

H.M.JR: No.

189

- 11 MR. BELL: Until you have something on the other.
H.M.JR: Yes, because we have got another financing

coming
along out
veryfirst.
closely, and I want to get this thing
straightened

MR. HAAS: Isn't the stronger statement action in any case?

H.M.JR: Yes. Get this understanding, something
like what you fellows have worked out, and then come
along and announce - what is it, a five year?
MR. BELL: And a twenty.

H.M.JR: Five and a twenty. And then I am per-

fectly happy. I am doing a little horse trading, but
the Fed is very anxious to be designated as a medium to
do this. The five year, that is. Do they want to do
the twenty, too?

MR. BELL: Yes.

H.M.JR: And I am not doing anything that I don't
believe in, but before we do the five and the twenty, I
want an agreement on excess reserves.

MR. BELL: I am not sure you can't do the securities--

H.M.JR: No, I don't want to do it. If you don't

mind, I won't do it, because the Fed are crazy to do the

thing. Eccles is crazy to do it. You have to trade

with Eccles and this is the time to make a bargain with
him.

MR. BELL: It is going to take a long time.
H.M.JR: I thought they said they were ready to do

something on this.

MR. HAAS: They agreed - you name the pattern and

they will support it. They say all they are suggesting

190

- 12 is a mechanical way of implementing that understanding.

MR. VINER: There is a big step between supporting a principle and accepting a formula.

MR. BELL: There is a. lot of difference in that

and what they suggested.

H.M.JR: I will tell you what I am willing to do.
I don't want to be dogmatic. I want to be fair. Give
this thing a trial and re-examine it every month based

on the record. That is fair, isn't it, Walter? Try

it for thirty days and then each month we will have a

meeting and re-examine it and see what happens.
MR. STEWART: My impression is that the agreement -

that this number three, if it could be put in such form,
that the only difference was that you are not going to

make a statement. Then it seems to me you have got
some essentials reserved here. You can make modifica-

tions in three which would meet part of their requirements if the purpose is to maintain a volume of reserves
adequate to support a long-term rate of so and so. Then
that is what they are asking for, but they are also asking for a statement. If you say, we are just not making any statements, and then couple it with the other
two, it might look a good deal like a program that you
have talked over, without the statement.

MR. BELL: I think they will contend that it isn't
necessary to have the '67-'72's at that yield level to
maintain this two and a half rate.

MR. STEWART: I think so too. I think there may
be merit in that.
MR. BELL: There may be some--

MR. STEWART: But they would be on the other side

prepared to say they would do such things in the market
as were necessary to maintain some rate. Then you have

a difference as to which rate it is you are trying to

maintain and whether you make a statement.

191

- 13 MR. BELL: Well, they agreed with us the other day
in a conference that long-term securities meet in the
early sixties, which means twenty years, at two and a
half percent, and that they were prepared to go along
on a program of that kind, and I think they would contend that you don't need three and a half million dollars
in reserves to maintain that.

H.M.JR: Well, this thing that - the interest rates

and their movement, there is a definite tie-up between

the two. There is your history. I mean, it is conclusive.

I mean, I sense these things, and then they come along
and give me some data to back up my - what I sense. It

proves it definitely, doesn't it, Henry?
MR. MURPHY:

Yes.

H.M.JR: Definitely. I mean, this isn't just - and,

Dan, I will not go through another financing with the
excess reserve situation the way it is in New York, the

way it was last time. I won't go through it again. I
feel very, very strongly on this thing. I will not go
through another thing like that.

MR. BELL: Of course, one thing Eccles would like to

see is a short-term rate of a half, and he says that

when you get that, you are going to get a lot more funds
than you have had heretofore out of the country, and not
just in New York.

H.M.JR: Well, could I do this, to let Eccles know?
I am very quiet on the phone. Let me call him up and

say that you people are meeting with me this afternoon.
Supposing you meet with him. I want to get as much as I

can out of Stewart, see, and let me tell him that I feel

this thing very strongly, and if I am wrong, supposing
they go out on a program and do this for me, and I am
wrong. Well, then I am wrong. I mean, their reputation
hasn't been hurt and my reputation hasn't been hurt.
Can you see any harm in their trying this thing?

MR. VINER: Oh, I think it would be something gained
if you had an agreement. I am not saying you must have

192

- 14 -

the statement. I would suspect - you can't be sure.
You can't be confident that they are going to work any

as it is made

won't a one. They won't

on a principles to satisfaction

rests such pledge accept statement this rigid unless of work your rigid. one They which

unless there is a statement to the public which imposes a
compulsion on both of you to carry out your agreement.

H.M.JR: Well, let me just-MR. VINER: Also, it may be hard to work it without
the statement, because I am not an expert in the sense of
the market, but from what I gather, the bankers are really
expecting that if you are going to ask them to buy a lot

more Government Bonds that they are going to get some

kind of assurance that the bonds are not going to have
sharp fluctuations.

H.M.JR: Look, Jake, I just went through on a tax

thing - I made a statement. In fact, I didn't make it,

Sullivan made it. It was in regard to what you could
or couldn't deduct in the way of your taxable income,
sec. They gave it a certain interpretation. We didn't
mean that, but that is what they gave. So, I have were you present?

MR. VINER: Yes, I was here.

H.M.JR: You were there. You saw what I went through,

and against the Treasury's better interests, I said, "If
this is the way you understand it, gentlemen, I will go
along," didn't I?
MR. VINER: Yes.

H.M.JR: Now, that was on an interpretation which
they gave something that a mouthpiece said for me. Now,
I am coming out myself and say something, and I never
can live it down if time should change. I mean, something can - look, I keep going on the theory ever since
I have been here, that the unexpected can't happen, and
it has happened every month, something. Since I have

193

- 15 been here, we have been fortunate enough that the public

has confidence in the Treasury. Now, it could lose this
confidence. I might make a misstatement inadvertently,
or the President might, and we might lose it, and these

fellows go out on a sit-down strike. This country might
be invaded, and then it gets down to saying, "Well, the

only way that you can borrow the money is through making

the rate attractive. God, they did it in the last war.

What did they pay? How high did they go?

MR. BELL: Four and a quarter percent on their
bonds and they went six percent-H.M.JR: And here I am hamstrung with this statement

facing me where I could get the money at three, but I

can't get it at two and a half, or I could get it at

five.

MR. VINER: I think what they are telling you now

is that really you can get it at two and a half, but
can't get it at four.
H.M.JR: Well, I don't believe it. That is what I

don't believe, because I have gone through it, and I
know that at a price - I mean, if these fellows come in

here and say, "Mr. Morgenthau, we will let you have money
for nine months at two and a quarter percent and you can

have it. Then they come along and say, "We will let you have
long money for eleven months. I have been all through
that. But, you are taking away from me the attractiveness of an interest rate. There must be other wars
where people paid ten or fifteen percent when they were
losing a war. There must be plenty. You fellows that
have been in universities all your lives, you must know
plenty of examples where countries were losing a war
where they had to pay--

MR. VINER: Well, I would argue that they gained

nothing by paying that, that the rate of interest has

little to do with--

MR. BELL: With the supply.

194

- 16 MR. VINER:

with the supply of funds, and that

wouldn't - I certainly wouldn't get a pattern on the
basis that - well, if the funds are coming in slowly,
we will tempt them in by raising the rates. I think
I

on non-banking funds to a certain extent, yes, but on
the banks, no. I would say that the rate that you pay
to the banks ought to be figured out in terms of what
they need in order to maintain a healthy position, but
the funds they have to give you, they can't keep them
out, and they themselves will be more comfortable, and

their position will be stronger if you don t raise the
rates.

MR. STEWART: They are comfortable so long as the
guarantee is kept.

MR. VINER: As long as there is assurance in the
market that the guarantee can be kept.
H.M.JR: Did you want to say something?

MR. BUFFINGTON: No. I know so little about all

this. I shouldn't express an opinion, but I don't see

how you can avoid the fact that the old law of supply
and demand works. In other words, I know of funds today
that would come out on a three percent market.
MR. VINER: Banking funds?
MR. BUFFINGTON: Yes.

MR. VINER: What are they doing?

MR. BUFFINGTON: They are just there. They are
taking the best they can get in places where they can

get it, and holding idle funds where they can't get
it, but I think that business funds and banking funds
both--

MR. VINER: Well, business funds is another story.
H.M.JR: Excuse me. Who told me at Chicago how

many accounts had over a million dollars in--?
MR. BUFFINGTON: It wasn't me.

195

- 17 H.M.JR: Well, somebody told me the number of accounts

that they had in their bank of over a million dollars
of individuals, cash, just lying there. I think some-

body told me - oh, I guess it was Ned Brown. Was it Ned

Brown? Do you remember that story?
MR. BELL: Yes.

MR. VINER: Well, they must be expecting the rate
to raise.

MR. HAAS: Yes, that is it.
MR. VINER: That is what makes the funds idle.

MR. STEWART: That is not all of it, Jack, there

is a rate at which given the surtaxes it isn't worth

bothering with the papers. There is another rate which
makes it worthwhile. And the option of doing nothing
is always open to them. On the general argument, I am
in agreement with the Secretary.

H.M.JR: Well, you go back - it isn't quite the

same. You did business, when you were in business - you
were in a venture business, and you had to have a high

return to venture your money. If you couldn't get a high
return, you wouldn't venture your money. Is that right?
MR. STEWART. That is right.

H.M.JR: Well, this is to a lesser degree the same
thing.

MR. BELL: I think you are in a war, Mr. Secretary,
and I think you are-MR. STEWART: They look upon the rate of interest as
being essentially a monetary factor which can be maintained under a monetary mechanism, and that the money
which comes from the banks does not have to have adjust-

ment with reference to anything that is called saving, or
the amount of money that is going to come out, and it is

196

- 18 -

possible to take a commitment, given the Reserve System

cooperation, and they say as far as the banking system

is concerned that is quite--

MR. BELL: We are talking about controlling prices
all along the line, and I think it would be unconscionable to the American people to pay more than two and a
half percent to finance this war.
H.M.JR: I agree with you, but let me look up some
of these speeches in which he said through cheap money
he could put people back to work. Did he?
MR. BELL: That is another era.
H.M.JR: No, Dan, excuse me.
MR. HAAS: He helped.

H.M.JR: Now, wait a minute. What?
MR.

HAAS: It helped.

H.M.JR: But wait a minute. The point - but it

didn't solve unemployment.

MR. HAAS: But it might have been worse if he hadn't

done it.

MR. MURPHY: Two and a half percent might not win

the war either, but it will help.

H.M.JR: Well, you very seldom see me as rigid as

I am on this thing. Now, it isn't going to break Mr.

Eccles' back or his theory or anything else if we say

to him, "Look, let's try this thing. I feel this way
very, very strongly. I am going to ask you to try it.
And let's see what happens to the record here and everything else. Let's try it and see what happens." I

would like to call him up on the phone and just tell him
very quietly how I feel. Could he see you people, and
I would like to meet with him Thursday afternoon and try
to settle this thing between now and Thursday afternoon.

197

- 19 MR. BELL: Would you agree--

H.M.JR: There are two honest differences of opinion.
Using Viner as the example, Viner says that the interest

rate is not the controlling factor, that it is the

people scared--

MR. VINER: For banks.

H.M.JR: And, I differ with you. And I also say
I will not go into another financing unless this excess

reserves situation has changed.

MR. BELL: Would you be willing to agree here that
the two and a half percent is an objective without making
any public statement, in other words, among ourselves-H.M.JR: Yes.
MR. BELL: O.K.

MR. VINER: There is no - I don't see yet any

urgency--

H.M.JR: Yes.

MR. VINER: .of the statement-H.M.JR: Dan.
MR. VINER:

as long as the pattern--

H.M.JR: Yes.
MR. VINER:

isn't broken.

MR. BELL: Well, the urgency of the statement is that
you get a lot of people outside saying, "Well, why doesn't
the Treasury have a program? What is this program of

financing thirty-nine billion dollars next year? Have they

got any pattern?" A lot of people raise that question. Now,
the Fed says--

198

- 20 -

H.M.JR: I read that.
MR. BELL: That is what we want. Maybe it came
from the Fed, I don't know. But they say when the
Treasury establishes that pattern, we are going to

get behind it and see that it works to the full extent
of our ability.
H.M.JR: That is why I raised the question about

publishing the stuff yesterday. I read the same article

you did.

MR. BELL: It has been out. A lot of people on the
Street have been in to see me, and they say, What is

your pattern for financing this thing? Is it just going
to be an issue every other month of any type that you

can put out at that time, or are you going to say to the
public, 'Now, this is what you can expect'?"
H.M.JR: Well, Dan, answering your question as to
the object, I have given you my answer.

MR. BELL: That is right, you have, and I am satis-

fied with that.

H.M.JR: Are you satisfied?
MR. BELL: Yes.

H.M.JR: Will you fight for that on that level?
MR. BELL: Yes, and they will go along with that on
that two and a half objective. They may not go along
with the way of achieving it like Henry put it down on
paper, but they will go along with that objective.
MR. HAAS: It will leak out anyway. Maybe that is
the most effective way of doing it.

MR. BELL: Well, that is an effective way.
H.M.JR: All I have got to do is send for Randolph
Burgess and Mr. Stonier the way I did the other day

199

- 21 and then the whole thing down to the very adjectives
appeared in the Wall Street Journal. It was the most

disgusting performance I ever saw. If I seem a little
terse today, I can't sing it, but I paid my income tax

today. (Laughter.) Boy, oh boy, oh boy, as Donald Duck
says. It is a good thing to have Donald Duck around.
MR. BELL: I hope you think back when you go to put
in the ten percent withholding.

H.M.JR: It is a good thing to have old Donald Duck
around. I can also understand-MR. BELL: Think of next year.

H.M.JR: That is the thing. This thing comming

now when we are talking about next year makes this year

look good. I think we are going to take in boarders
if we can deduct it as expenses, and this year of all

years, my farm had to make money, Jake.

MR. VINER: Well, you could get a new accountant.

No gentleman's farm makes money.

H.M.JR: This year of all years we had to average so

much on our strawberries.

MR. VINER: That is why I say you ought to get a

new accountant.

H.M.JR: Just this year the farm had to make money.
(The Secretary held a telephone conversation with
Mr. Eccles as follows:)

200
March 10, 1942
12:06 p.m.
HMJr:

Hello.

Operator:

Chairman Eccles.

HMJr:

Hello.

Marriner
Eccles:

Hello.

HMJr:

Good morning, Marriner.

E:

Good morning, Henry.

HMJr:

How are you?

E:

HMJr:

E:

HMJr:

I'm pretty good.

Marriner, I've been sitting around here with
my advisers on this question of financing.
Yes, sir.
And we've reached a certain point where we'd
like to meet with your men, you see?

E:

Yeah.

HMJr:

And I've got some notions which I'd like them

to pu: up to you. I don't think we're 80 far

apart as to the objective, you see.
E:

Uh huh.

HMJr:

But frankly, the last financing, that excess
reserve thing bothered me tremendously, you

know.
E:

HMJr:

Yeah.

Particularly the New York situation, the fact
that a quarter of all the reserves were with the
Guaranty and they sat back and did next to

nothing. So I'd like them to present our viewpoint to you on a kind of a trial basis, you
see? And then I thought if between now and

201

-2next Thursday at three o'clock, at least we
could come as close as possible - at least
know where our differences were. Then I'd
like to meet with you.
E:

HMJr:
E:

On Thursday.

Yeah. Are you going to be here Thursday?
Yes, sir.

HMJr:

Would three o'clock be good for you? Thursday?

E:

Let's see. Yeah. I'll set Thursday - three
o'clock is okay.

HMJr:

E:

HMJr:

E:

Well, now, my men can come over this afternoon
to see you.

Well, I wouldn't have time to get Sproul here;
but I guess that wouldn't be necessary then.
Well, he could come down tomorrow. Then we

could work right through until Thursday until
we got the thing settled.
I'd like him here Thursday, because it's very
important, because he understands this problem
possibly as well or better than any of us, and

18 very - we've got to depend a good deal, of
course, upon the - as long as the New York bank

HMJr:

is our agent in the operation, why it's pretty
important that they be in the picture.
Well, would you like to meet with our boys this
afternoon?

E:

Yes, I would. Then let's see now - unless we
could meet tomorrow

HMJr:
E:

I tell you
with them, I could get Sproul down tomorrow
afternoon and we'd meet tomorrow afternoon with
them and meet with you Thursday. How would that
be?

HMJr:

Well, with this - Walter Stewart is just here

202

-3for today.
Oh, yes.

E:

HMJr:

And he happens to see the thing the way I do,

80 I'd like you to get the benefit of his
thoughts.

Yes.

E:

HMJr:

I mean, if you just would get his ideas today.

Yes. Well, I'd like very much to get them if
he isn't going to be here tomorrow - I'd like

E:

very much to have his point of view.

HMJr:
E:

Well, he's not going to be here tomorrow.

He isn't? Well, then - who did you - I can

come over there or they could come over here,
either way. Who did you want me to meet with?

HMJr:

E:

HMJr:

Well, it would be Bell and Viner and Stewart
and some of Haas' people, and Buffington.

Uh huh.

And they'd be glad to come to you - any way they '11 come over to you.

E:

Well, now, what I thought - let's see - gosh
I wish we could get Sproul here. I might be

able to get him to take a plane and come down

HMJr:

Yeah.

if we met later this afternoon. Well, what

E:

time would they like to meet this afternoon?
HMJr:

Well, Stewart leaves - (talks aside) when do you
leave?

E:

Stewart leaves at five.
At five. Well, we ought to meet by three anyway.

HMJr:

Yes.

E:

Hadn't we?

203

-4HMJr:
E:

HMJr:
E:

Yes.

Well, I'11 tell you what to do. I'11 come over
there.
There's
possibly
got;
and
if that's
okay fewer of us than you've
Fine.

.....I'11office.
come over there and we'll meet in
Dan's

HMJr:

Right.

E:

And I'll get Sproul if I can, and if I can't

why I don't know who I'11 bring over. But I'll
come over and bring somebody.

HMJr:
E:

HMJr:
E:

Righto.

And three o'clock then.
Right.

Then we'll figure three o' clock on Thursday with
you.

HMJr:

That's right.

E:

All right, then. Fine.

HMJr:

Thank you.

E:

Good-bye.

HMJr:

Thank you.

204
- 22 -

H.M.JR: I am seeing you, Dan, at two thirty on
the Chinese thing. They can't laugh off that chart

that those boys prepared showing the influence of the

Federal Reserve increase in excess on the money market,

and I frankly, Dan, - I would like this week if possible
this thing settled ofMR. BELL: We would like to have it settled too.

H.M.JR: I agree in principle on the two and a

half as an objective. I think every effort should be
made. I don't want to commit myself publicly to it.

I feel very, very strongly; I would like something done

about the reserves on some kind of a formula basis and

then on the other thing, these two issues; as soon as
those two things are settled, I am willing to go ahead
at once and use the Federal Reserve, but I don t want
to move until those things are settled. And here is the
point-

MR. VINER: How much of this may we tell Eccles?

H.M.JR: Everything. And supposing I am wrong.
Well, how much damage is done if he has bought three or

four hundred million dollars worth of stuff?

MR. BELL: Well, at the end of the next twelve
months he will have a good deal more than that.
H.M.JR: But I mean, supposing I am wrong? Eccles

will say, "Well, I did it because Morgenthau insisted.

We told him he was wrong, but in order to humor him, we

did it." And if, on the other hand we are right, it is

a joint operation and I keep my mouth shut. I don't think
that that is unreasonable, Jake, do you?

MR. VINER: Well, I don't see any problem on that.

If they increase their excess reserves, the only ill
effect I can see that it might have is an inflationary
effect at a time when we don want it, but that is
easy to correct at this time.

205

- 23 to--' H.M.JR: Well, you can say, "Morgenthau wanted

MR. VINER: But, they will not want a rigid formula.

I think myself that they probably will feel that they

have a duty not to accept a rigid formula handed to
them from another agency, but they are obliged to use
their judgment, and my guess is that I would want to read
the
of do
thethat.
law, and their counsel would tell them
theytext
can't

H.M.JR: Well, you can have it verbally.
MR. BELL: You mean they can't legally enter
into a rigid arrangement.

to doMR.
it. VINER: No, I doubt whether they have the right
H.M.JR: Their word is good enough for me.

MR. VINER: The point is you can talk to them too

rigidly. They may feel you are trying to put them in a
vise where they won't be in a position to use their own
judgment as the law requires them to.
MR. HAAS: Well, wouldn't that be their judgment?
MR. VINER: I wouldn't show them anything as definite

as that.

H.M.JR: Look, I am willing - all I am asking is to

make an earnest start, and I am willing to have consultation at any time. I think we should consult anyway
once a week, whether we have something to consult about
or not.

MR. BELL: We have been doing a lot of consulting
right along.
H.M.JR: Furthermore, you can tell them, "Morgenthau
wanted to do it through regulations, and we think we have

persuaded him not to do it through regulations, which is
correct. I mean, I wanted to change it. Now, we have

206
- 24 -

argued them of that and let them do it this way. Let them

think that this is my first position, and this is my
second position, which is true, Dan. My first position,

Ihave
regulations.
fellows
me point. Do you feel can go
wanted this got to do down it to through this Now, you you

in thing and represent me without stultifying
yourself?

MR. BELL: Oh, sure. I am all right. I don't

feel badly about this.

H.M.JR: You don't feel you would have to stultify

yourself?

MR. BELL: No, sir, as long as the objective is

what we are after, and we get strong action toward the
objective, and I think there has been some doubt in all
of our minds as to whether this should be a public statement; and when we discussed it last, we thought maybe
that you could make this statement before the Ways and
Means when you discussed the debt limit. Well, we didn't
have time, so we dropped that idea. Now, even if you are

going to make it public, I think we would have to still
decide what would be the occasion. You just can't come

out with a public statement like this. You have to

have some sort of an occasion on which to do it, and that
is what we were looking for. Now, on the support of the

market, you say that it is a joint undertaking. I wonder
if we are going after this objective - should it be a
joint undertaking in the market? Because we are using

borrowed money, and their going ahead alone is much more

effective.

H.M.JR: Well, I am open to argument on that. I
will take advice on that.
MR. BELL: I think if we start out on that program,
that they ought to do it alone.

H.M.JR: But, let them ask for it, you see.
MR. HAAS: There is one more supplement--

207
- 25 H.M.JR: I am open to argument and advice on that.
MR. HAAS: There is one more thing, Dan, which
hasn't been mentioned which I think the Secretary should

have brought to his attention. In order to carry on

these open market operations to the extent to which
they
will have to
bebill
carried
on, you have no objection
to increasing
the
issue?

H.M.JR: No, that is all right.
MR. STEWART: How long an experimental period do
you have in mind?
H.M.JR: Three months?
ing.

MR. BELL: Until after, certainly, the next financH.M.JR: Wouldn't that be on-MR. STEWART: Yes.

H.M.JR: Am I unreasonable, Walter?
MR. STEWART: I don't think so.

H.M.JR: Do you think I am, Jack?

MR. VINER: No, not at all. I don't think this is

an easy problem to answer.

MR. BELL: That is right.
MR. VINER: And I think we are - I don't really
think that there is very great difference of opinion.
There are a few little edges of difference here, and I
don't think there are great differences of opinion in the
Federal Reserve.

MR. BELL: I think we are together on fundamentals.

It is probably the mode of carrying it out.

208
- 26 I think you might have a difference
in theMR.
rateSTEWART:
here.

MR. VINER: I hadn't thought about that.

H.M.JR: Again, I want to move in the direction of
more - what did I want? I mean, I want the banks to
have more reserves, isn't that what I want?
MR. STEWART: Yes. With an objective, but not
necessarily
too restricted
of ideas between
the two. a formula and with the exchange

MR. VINER: I think there is one more point on which
there may be room for disagreement, and that is the
question as to the very short-term rates, and as to whether
or not they can go up without affecting the long term
rates, whether they should be allowed to go up.

H.M.JR: Well, that is again - but one thing I would
like, and I just thought of it, so it isn't uppermost in
my mind. Otherwise, I would have mentioned it earlier.
Eccles has told me, sitting there, again and again, the
responsibility of financing the war is mine. I recognize
that. "But, we will do everything we can to help you," he
said. So, in the final argument with him, remind him

that he said that the final responsibility is mine.
MR. BELL: Well, he has often said that.

H.M.JR: But, he has said that, and he does recog-

nize that. As I have said again and again, we sit around
and ask Eccles' advice on a financing; and if the financing

fails, I can't publicly say, "I took Mr. Eccles' advice

or the Federal Reserve Board's advice, and that is why it
is a failure," and he does recognize that the Secretary
of the Treasury has got to finance this war, and certainly
we haven't been trying to bulldoze him into anything;

but in the final analysis, and I say I am mentioning it
last because I just thought of it, it is my responsibility,
and I do feel this thing very, very - and if I am wrong,
that is that.

209
- 27 MR. BELL: You know, if this two and a half twentyyear security that we are suggesting here works, you
won't have many more long-term issues as a public offering, because the funds won't accumulate except rather

slowly, and the things that you offer hereafter will have

to fit the bank's portfolio. In other words, it will be

within the twelve years. We hope to simplify the financing, but we are not sure we will.

210

Alternative Bases for Agreement on Excess Reserves

(1) Increase excess reserves by at least $300 millione a month until total excess reserves exceed $5 billions,
excess
in New
York City $2 billions;
these and
levels
to be reserves
maintained
thereafter.
(2) The Federal Reserve Banks to purchase an amount

of Government securities equal to 20 percent of the net

increase in total open-market securities, this to continue until the levels of excess reserves specified in
(1) have been attained; this level of excess reserves to

be maintained thereafter.

(3) Increase excess reserves by at least $300 millions in every month in which the long-term taxable
average is more than 2.30 percent, or the 2-1/2's of
1967-72 yield more than 2.40 percent. (The long-term
taxable average is now 2.36 percent, and the 2-1/2'B of
1967-72 now yield 2.47 percent.)

March 10, 1942

211

March 10, 1942

MEMORANDUM FOR THE SECRETARY'S FILES

Conference in Mr. Bell's Office
March 10, 1942
2 P. M.

Present: Mr. Bell
Mr. White
Dr. Viner

Mr. B. Bernstein
Mr. Southard
Mr. Friedman

Meeting was called to draft a letter in reply to letter

received from Undersecretary Welles. Dr. Viner and Mr. White

submitted draft letters and on the basis of these a letter

was drawn up.

It was agreed at the meeting that a history of the loan

should be written.

Letter received from Dr. Soong containing changes in the
Agreement suggested by Dr. Kung was distributed.

212

MAR 10 1942

My dear Mr. Helles:

I have your letter of March 9, 1942, in which you
question the desirability of eliminating Article II from
the draft of the Agreement presented to Dr. T. V. Soong.
I would welcome any provisions in the financial
arrangement with China which would protect the financial
interests of the United States, as well as promote the
most effective economic use of the funds by the Chinese.
If there were not overbalancing political and military
considerations, I would insist upon the retention of

Article II of the original draft, and even inclusion of

stronger provisions. But it has always been agreed at
meetings between State and Treasury Departments that
the purposes of the financial aid were predominantly
political, diplomatic, and military. These considerations
therefore have determined the formulation of the terms of
the Agreement which was submitted to the Chinese.

As you know, the first draft handed to the Chinese
Government included Article II calling for consultation

and exchange of information. However, in view of General-

issimo Chiang Kai-shek's reactions to Article II, and of
his request that it be omitted, communicated to us in
the letter from Dr. T. V. Soong to t is Department, the
Treasury was unwilling to risk jeopardizing the important
political and military value of this financial aid by
insisting upon the retention of Article II in the Agreement
and therefore raised that question with the State Department.

In light of the fact that the determination of the
inclusion or the exclusion of Article II turns almost
wholly on questions of political character, and in view
Sent at 6 P m to Sing's

house for then

to State dight by Secut
Service Agt Montgomery 3/10/42

213

-2 of our telephone conversation of today, I should like
to have you advise - as to what our next step should
be in replying to the Generalissimo.
Since I feel that time is of the essence and that
we should consummate this Agreement without delay, I
would appreciate an answer from you on this matter as
soon as possible.

sincerely yours,

Secretary of the Treasury.
Honorable Summer Welles,

Under Secretary of State.

214
C

0

P

Minister for Foreign Affairs

Y

Republic of China

March 10, 1942
CONFIDENTIAL

Dear Mr.Sell
Following my letter of March 3rd containing the
observations of Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek on the draft loan
agreement, I have now received a message from Dr. H. H. Kung
suggesting some further changes. These final suggestions however, as you will see, are principally changes in draftsmanships

(a) Preamble (6) Instead of the words "will safeguard
the unity", substitute the words "will promote the welfare".
(b) Preamble (7) Include the phrase "other than those
supplied under the Lend-Lease Act" after the words "Meet military

needs".

(c) Article I. It is desired to name the Minister of

Finance as the channel of the Chinese Government to implement the

terms of Article I.

(d) Article II. The second sentence is retained in the
form of the original draft. Instead the words "by the two
contracting parties" are added to the first sentence of Article
II, after the words "is deferred".
I are enclosing several copies of the draft with the
suggested changes. I hope you and your colleagues will be good
enough to give your kind consideration to the above points.
Yours sincerely,

(agd) T. V. Soong
T. V. Soong

Mr. D. W. Bell
Under Secretary of the Treasury
Treasury Department
Washington, D. C.

SUGGESTED DRAFT CHANGES

215

WHRREAS the Governments of the United States of America and of the Republic

of China are engaged together with other nations and peoples of like mind, in a
cooperative undertaking against common enemies, to the end of laying the bases of a
just and enduring world peace securing order under law to themselves and all nations
and

WHEREAS the United States and China are signatories to the Declaration of
United Nations of January 1st 1942 which declares the t "each government pledges itself

to employ its full resources, military or economic, against those members of the
Tripartite Pact and its adherents with which such government is at war"; and
WHEREAS the Congress of the United States, in unanimously passing Public

Law No. 442 approved February 7, 1942 has declared that financial and economic aid to

China will increase China's ability to oppose the forces of aggression and that the
defense of China is of the greatest possible importance, and has authorized the Secretary

of the Treasury of the United States with the approval of the President, to give
financial aid to China and

THEREAS such financial aid will enable China to strengthen greatly its war
efforts against the common enemies by helping China to

(1) Strengthen its currency, monetary, banking and economic system;
(2) Finance and promote increased production, acquisition and
distribution of necessary goods;

(3) Retard the rise of prices, promote stability of economic
relationships and otherwise check inflation;
(4) Prevent hoarding of foods and other materials;
(5) Improve means of transportation and communication;

(6) Effect further social and economic measures which promote the
welfare of the Chinese people; and
(7) Meet military needs other than those supplied under the Lend-Lease
Act, and take other appropriate measures in its war effort.
In order to achieve these purposes, the undersigned being duly authorized
by their respective Governments for that purpose, have agreed as follows:

--

216

ARTICLE I

The Secretary of the Treasury of the United States agrees to establish
forthwi th on the books of the United States Treasury & credit in the name of the
Government of the Republic of China in the amount of 500,000,000 U.S. Dollars. The

Secretary of the Treasury shall make transfers from this credit, in such amounts and
it such times as the Government of the Republic of China shall request through the
Minister of Finance to an account or accounts in the Federal Reserve Bank of New York
in the name of the Government of the Republic of China or any agencies designated by

the Vinister of Finance. Such transfers may be requested by and such accounts at the
Federal Reserve Bank of New York may be drawn unon by the Government of the Republic

of China either directly or through such persons or agencies BE the Linister of Finance
hall authorize.
ARTICLE II

The final determination of the terms unon which this financial sid is given,
including the benefits to be rendered the United States in return, is deferred by
the two contracting parties until the progress of events after the war makes clearer

the final terms and benefits which will be in the mutual interest of the United States
and China and will promote the establishment of lasting world peace and security. In

determining the final terms and benefits full cognisance shall be given to the
Resirability of maintaining a healthy and stable economic and financial situation in
hina in the post-war period as well as during the war and to the desirability of
promoting mutually advantageous economic and financial relations between the United
States and China and the betterment of world-wide economic and financial relations.
ARTICLE III

This agreement shall take effect as from this day's date.

March 10, 1942

217

March 10, 1942
2:40 p.m.

AID TO CHINA

Present: Mr. Bell

Mr. White
Mr. Viner

Mr. Bernstein

H.M.JR: Is it different? Where does it begin
to get different?
MR. BELL: The whole letter is different.
MR. WHITE: Right after "My dear Mr. Welles."

(Laughter)

H.M.JR: Where you say "I would insist," make it,
"I would have insisted."
MR. BERNSTEIN: I think that phraseology has been

changed a little bit, Mr. Secretary, to meet this last
suggestion.

H.M.JR: Yes. "I would have," " don't you think?
MR. BERNSTEIN: Where it says "continue to insist"?

H.M.JR: No, I said, "If there were not overbalancing political and military considerations, I would insist "
upon," and so forth. Make it, "I would have insisted.
MR. WHITE: I don't think you should be the judge

of that, Mr. Secretary. That is what you are asking
them to judge, because you still can insist if they say so.

218

-2-

H.M.JR: Oh, I see. Well, I say, "In all my

participation and in my testimony before the House
and the Senate." "

MR. VINER: Well, that is changed.
MR. WHITE: We have changed that, and I think it

is better.

MR. BELL: We have said, "in our conferences

between the two Departments."

H.M.JR: Well, I would certainly say something about

my testimony before the House and Senate.

MR. VINER: But here your - they are supposed to

know what the purposes are, too. You are throwing it
back on them.

H.M.JR: All right. It is all right.
MR. BELL: Well, we have changed it a little.
H.M.JR: Well, when it is ready somebody--

MR. BELL: It will be ready in five minutes.
H.M.JR: When it is ready if somebody can walk it

in to me.

219

My dear Mr. Welles:

I have your letter of March 9, 1942, in which you
question the desirability of eliminating Article II from
the draft of the Agreement presented to Dr. T. V. Soong.
I would welcome any provisions in the financial
arrangement with China which would protect the financial
interests of the United States, as well as promote the
most effective economic use of the funds by the Chinese.
If there were not overbalancing political and military
considerations, I would insist upon the retention of

Article II of the original draft, and even inclusion of

stronger provisions. But it has always been agreed at
meetings between State and Treasury Departments that
the purposes of the financial aid were predominantly
political, diplomatic, and military. These considerations
therefore have determined the formulation of the terms of
the Agreement which was submitted to the Chinese.

As you know, the first draft handed to the Chinese
Government included Article II calling for consultation

and exchange of information. However, in view of General-

issimo Chiang Kai-shek's reactions to Article II, and of
his request that it be omitted, communicated to us in
the letter from Dr. T. V. Soong to is Department, the
Treasury was unwilling to risk jeopardizing the important
political and military value of this financial aid by
insisting upon the retention of Article II in the Agreement

and therefore raised that question with the State Department.

In light of the fact that the determination of the
inclusion or the exclusion of Article II turns almost
wholly on questions of political character, and in view

220

-2 of our telephone conversation of today, I should like
LO have you advise me as to what our next step should
be in replying to the Generalissimo.
Since I feel that time is of the essence and that
IN

we should consummate this Agreement without delay, I
would appreciate an answer from you on this matter as
soon as possible.

Sincerely yours,
(Signed) L. Morgesthaw its

Secretary of the Treasury.
Honorable Summer Welles,

Under Secretary of State.