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212

Shirley Temple

SHIRLEY TEMPLE SMILINGLY PUT WASHINGTON PHOTOGRAPHERS IN THEIR
PLACE TODAY AS THEY SHAPPER PICTURES or HER FOLLOWING A LUNCHESH WITH
SECRETARY MORGENTUAS.

AFTER SEVERAL MOMENTS or BILD-FLASHING THE PHOTOGRAPHERS ASKED FOR

"ANOTHER PICTURE." SHIRLEY TURNED ON HER WINSONE SHILE AND SAID,
-

"CAMERAMEN ARE ALWAYS IMPOSSIBLE, YOU KNOW. THAT'S ALL FOR YOU I'M
AFRAID."

THE CHILD STAR DISPLAYED AN ARRAY or SHINY, NEW COINS, INCLUDING
A NEWLY-MINTER SILVER DOLLAR, GIFTS FROM THE SEGRETARY.
SHE LOOKED PUZZLED WHEN REPORTERS ASKED HER IF SHE DISCUSSED THE
BUDGET WITH THE SECRETARY, BUT MORGENTHAU CANE TO HER RESCUE WITH THE

OBSERVATION THAT EVEN IF THEY RAD, THE REPORTERS "WOULD"" UNDERSTAND
IT ANYWAY."

SHIRLEY SAID SHE HAD A GOOD LUNGERSAND ICE CREAM, TOO."

6/28--6E220P

213

TREASURY DEPARTMENT

Confidentive

PROCUREMENT DIVISION

All

WASHINGTON June 28, 1938

OFFICE OF THE DIRECTOR

ENFIDENTIAL

eno. to the Secretary:

Re: Meeting of Executive representatives
of Anti-monopoly Committee

A confidential meeting of the Executive representatives was held at the home of
Assistant Attorney General Thurman W. Arnold at 8:00 P.M. tonight.
Thurman W. Arnold
From Justice
Present:
W. O. Douglas and J. N. Frank
SEC
R. C. Patterson
Commerce
"

I. Lubin
G. S. Ferguson and E. L. Davis
H. Oliphant and C. J. Peoples

Labor

Federal Trade
Treasury

The purpose of the meeting was to discuss in a general way methods of procedure prior
the official meeting with the six legislative members. Mr. Arnold was temporary
Chairman.

Justice submitted a lengthy memorandum entitled "Outline for Anti-trust Investigation"

the effect that the part which the anti-trust division of the Department of Justice

should play in the investigation conducted by the temporary economic committee primarily
concerns the administration of the Sherman Act.

Federal Trade Commission submitted also for the agenda certain subjects suggested to
be covered by that Commission in the investigation.

Copies were distributed to each person present for study and later consideration.
The Chairman suggested that other agenda should be prepared by any member, each member to

furnished with a copy thereof for preliminary study.
Caucus or Majority Control

The Chairman brought up first the question of unity of action as a solution of which
expressed the view that the majority vote should govern. I pointed out to Mr. Oliphant
that the Treasury should not commit itself to this view, and he made the suggestion that
in a case of disagreement as represented by majority and minority views a matter of
policy should be settled by the President inasmuch as the Executive representatives

should represent the Administration's point of view. This was a fortunate solution of a

matter of major importance in my opinion because it leaves the Treasury freedom of action
on matters of primary importance.

Public Statements

It was agreed that no written or oral statements be given by any individual the member
t. the press. Official releases should be made by the Executive Secretary and
Chairman of the Committee.

June 28, 1938

-2-

no. to the Secretary

214

Witnesses

agreed that persons appearing before the main committee should be by subpoena
It was testimony given under oath. Further, any written or oral statement made by
ly and witness should be given to the press by the Committee as such. Witnesses should
permitted such to have counsel, but counsel could suggest questions only to the Committee
self to be asked.

General counsel for Committee

was the sense of the meeting that general counsel as such was not necessary; but
to counsel for any individual member the question was still left open.
It

Permanent Chairman

It was the sense of the Committee that Senator O'Mahoney would make an appropriate
cernanent Chairman, with Leon Henderson being asked to serve in the capacity of
Executive Secretary.

Publicity

A publicity man should be hired, preferably one acquainted with government, and of
tact, discretion and diplomacy. This being an important detail the temporary chairman

WAS to take the matter up with the President.

Space

The Federal Trade Commission offered its two hearing rooms in its new building for
that purpose.

Staff

It was agreed that the staff should be built up beginning with six experts, one from
each department or agency represented on the Committee.

Mr. Arnold and Mr. Douglas are to have luncheon with Senator O'Mahoney tomorrow with

respect to the permanent chairmanship. Confidentially, it appears the Senator desires
this selection.

It is evident that the scope of the work is to be very broad and extensive on many
veried and complex problems. For illustration, while insurance control was not mentioned
in the Act it was believed highly desirable at the appropriate time to go into the subject,
yet too early to consider specific matters as this first meeting was intended to get
together and crystallize the Executive viewpoint before the meeting of the main Committee

itself.

The temporary Chairman had a stenographer present to record the minutes of the
meeting which will be distributed as soon as ready.

of
Director Procurement

215

June 28, 1938
OUTLINE FOR ANTITRUST INVESTIGATION

The part which the Antitrust Division should play in the investigation conducted by the Temporary Economic Committee primarily

concerns the administration of the Sherman Act. This covers a broad

field and it is difficult to make precise limitations. Combinations

in restraint of trade are effected by agreement, and also by the operation of legal privileges given by a variety of laws. The various
other Departments of the Government concerned in this inquiry all deal
with aspects of the general monopoly problem. The Sherman Act expresses

our traditional attitude toward that problem. Therefore, the Antitrust

Division is concerned with the broad problem of combination and other
Departments are concerned with more particular aspects of that problem.
There is no way to avoid overlapping by a general statement or definition.

There should be, however, no difficulty in dividing the task when it is

worked out in more detail.

In general, the Department of Justice is concerned with the following:

(1) The patterns of industrial combinations. Here the field of
inquiry is large and should include in its range tight monopolies, such
as farm machinery, aluminum, and foreign cartels, such as newspaper print,
rubber, chemicals, etc.

(2) Cases where industrial domination by a few large competitive
concerns exists; for example, steel, cement, and rubber.

(3) Industrial bottlenecks; that is, situations where the inte-

gration of production and distribution give the dominating group in
the industry an arbitrary power to drive out industrial competitors
at one or more stages of the industrial process, as, for example,

in the oil industry, the movies, chain distribution.

(4) Cases where the control of the distributing system creates
arbitrary power over both producers and consumers; i.e., milk.

(5) Cases involving the use of legal privileges, such as patents
or copywrites, by a dominant group to effect arbitrary control of
prices; i.e., radios, chemicals, glass shapes, electrical appliances,
and various materials used in housing.

(6) Situations where a large number of competing firms make

alliance against effective competition under the theory of creating an orderly market; i.e., trade associations.
(7) Cases of cut-throat competition, by means of which competitors are destroyed and the groundwork is laid for monopoly

conditions; i.e., dresses, waste paper, coal, etc.

216
-2-

These classifications are not mutually exclusive. Each occurs

to a certain extent in all industries. We propose, therefore, to do
the investigation in terms of industry rather than the above classifications, so that each industry investigated will illuminate a number
of the fact rs listed above; for instance, the tangle of goods which
must be used together, as in housing, should be studied as a unit.
Here there is a typical situation in which it is useless to bring down
the price of one of the component products without bringing down all.
The thread which will tie this story together may be described

as "industrial price policy." Price is the point at which an industry
meets its public. In its magnitude all that is order and disorder, control, custom and chaos is caughtup. Industries go in for fixed or free,
high or low prices. The prices of different commodities lie upon differ-

A number of studies should be made of all the factors - raw
materials, technology, corporate structure, remote control, privilege and
patent - which converge upon a price to make it what it is. A comparison
of price policies should reveal the barriers which in particular cases
stand in the way of the production of a good in a quantity and at a price
which will insure it a secure place in the American sta dard of living.

So much for the particular subjects for inquiry by the Antitrust
Division. AS a preliminary to the entire study, and in order to make the
work of the different Departments part of an intelligible whole, it is
necessary to first present a general picture of the industrial situation which created the necessity for this investigation. This should
be done in terms of industrial capacity as compared with industrial use.
The =aldistribution of the national income, the general statistics about
the size of industrial combinations, the comparative weakness of smaller

businesses, the general failure of industrial price policy, will give a general
pattern into which the particular industries studies can be fitted. Part
of the job is ed cational. Therefore, it is important that the purpose of
each part of the hearing can be explained by press releases in the light of
the general introduction.

217
June 28, 1938

Some subjects suggested to be covered
by the Federal Trade Commission in the
Monopoly Investigation.

1. Make study and report showing the concentration of
control in production and distribution in a substantial number

of fields of business. This might be illustrated by charts.
2. Determine how this concentration was brought about,

whether due to:

(a) Natural growth through reinvestment
of surplus.
(b) Through combination, merger or holding
companies.

(c) Through destruction of competitors by
unfair trade practices or monopoly.

3. Make a study of the rigidity and uniformity of prices in

the industries which show the greatest degree of concentration.

4. Study the behavior of the industries showing the highest

degree of concentrated control during the depression from the standpoint of:

(a) Percentage decline in production.
(b) Percentage decline in employment.
(c) Percentage decline in prices.
Lake a similar study of industries known to be competitive and compare.

5. Select a number of industries where a high degree of concentrated
control exists and where basing point systems or where other monopolistic practices are either known to exist or are suspected and find out the rate of
return on invested capital and on the common stockholders equity (if possible)
for such industries over a period of years.

(6) Study the concentration of natural resources in the United States.
This might be illustrated with charts.
7. Study the trade association problem. Should trade associations
be forbidden certain practices? . An inquiry as to whether trade associations
are a factor in repressing competition.

S. Make a study of interlocking directors and intercorporate stock-

holders among industrial corporations.

218

9. Study the alleged efficiency of large corporations as compared with small or medium sized corporations. Does the medium size

corporations have a greater rate of return on the stated value of its
stock plus surplus and surplus reserves, pay better dividends, have
lower unit cost of production, more efficient management, better capital
structure than the giant corporations? Particularly what are the various
inefficiencies of big business?

10. Put into the record pertinent evidence existing in the files
of the Federal Trade Commission showing the existence of monopoly and

monopolistic practices in industries.

It might be worth while for the Federal Trade Commission to use a

part of its allotment of the funds furnished in the Resolution to make
& quick investigation of several other important industries which are
believed to be thoroughly monopolistic, and which, because of their importance, should be brought to the attention of the National Economic
Committee.

11. Study effects of such monopolistic practices as collusive
agreements, formula prices including basing point systems, making of

identical bids, and of the use of price filing and other informational
and statistical services to check competition.

12. Study Federal incorporation or licensing of corporations engaged in interstate commerce.

13. Study speculation of officers and directors in stock of their
own corporations.

14. Study the social danger of concentration of power in small
groups constituting officers and directors and their separation from
stockholder influence.

15. Study the need of responsible accounting methods to insure

proper accounting and truthful reporting of financial results.

-2-

TREASURY DEPARTMENT

Office of the Secretary

Secret Service Division
MEMORANDUM

June 28, 1938

To:

Mrs. Klotz

From:

Mr. Murphy

We attach tentative schedule of the

President's trip to the Pacific Coast
and as soon as we are advised of any
changes we will inform you.

The President will arrive Pensecola,

Florida about August 7 or 8. He will then
go to Warm Springs for one day and may

visit Columbus, Athens, and other points
in Georgia, proceeding thence to either

Washington or Hyde Park.

About August 18 he expects to start

on a trip through Canada and visit cities
in the United States.

WRB

219

!FIDENTIAL

MEMO. FOR SEC. MCINTYRE:

220

Trip of the President to Pacific
Coast,
1938.
July 7

THURSDAY, July 7

Washington (B & 0)

Lv.

10:30 p.m.

FRIDAY, July 8
Ar.

Marietta, Ohio

Lv.

Marietta

Ar.

Covington, Ky

9:00 a.m.
10:30 a.m.
2:15 p.m. CT

Ar. Latonia
Lv. Latonia

2:35 p.m. CT
3:35 p.m. CT

Ar. Louisville

6:35 p.m.

Louisville

6:40 p.m.

Rear-end appearance.

Lv.

Bowling Green
Rear-end appearance.
Bowling Green

Ar.
Lv.

9:05 p.m.
9:10 p.m.

SATURDAY, July 9.
Memphis, Tenn

3:20 a.m.
3:30 a.m.

Ar. Oklahoma City, Okla

5:00 p.m.

Ar.

Lv. Memphis (Road)

Lv.

Fair Grounds speech.
Oklahoma City (Santa Fe)

Ar.

Fort Worth, Texas

6:00 p.m.
11:00 p.m.

MONDAY, July 11.

Lv. Fort Worth (F.W. & D.C.)

10:00 a.m.

Ar. Amarillo

6:45 p.m.

Lv. Amarillo

8:30 p.m.

Drive around city.
Lay-over enroute.
Clayton, N. Mex. Rear-end appearance.
TUESDAY, July 12.

Ar.
Lv.

Pueblo, Colo
Pueblo, (D.and R.G.)

9:00 a.m. MT
9:30 a.m.

WEDNESDAY, July 13.

Pass thru Salt Lake City 5:00 a.m.
Ar.
Lv.

Ogden, Utah
Ogden (Southern Pac.)

6:00 a.m.

5:15 a.m. P.T.

THURSDAY, July 14.

Lay-over some point during night.
Ar.

Crockett, Cal

9:00 a.m.

Motor around San Pablo Bay, stopping at

Mare Island, thence to Sausalito, across
Golden Gate Bridge to San Francisco,
thence to Treasure Island (on Oakland

Bridge) by following route: Shore Drive
via Fort Mason, Van Ness Avenue to Golden

Gate Avenue (then street to be supplied)

CONFIDENTIAL

220

MEMO. FOR SEC. MCINTYRE:

July 7 - 1938.

Trip of the President to Pacific Coast,
THURSDAY, July 7

10:30 p.m.

Lv. Washington (B & 0)
FRIDAY, July 8
Ar.

Marietta, Ohio

Ar.

Covington, Ky

9:00 a.m.
10:30 a.m.

Lv. Marietta

2:15 p.m. CT

Ar. Latonia
Lv. Latonie

2:35 p.m. CT
3:35 p.m. CT

Ar. Louisville
Rear-end appearance.
Lv. Louisville

6:35 p.m.
6:40 p.m.
9:05 p.m.

Bowling Green
Rear-end appearance.
Bowling Green

Ar.
Lv.

9:10 p.m.

SATURDAY, July 9.

3:20 a.m.
3:30 a.m.

Ar.

Memphis, Tenn

Ar.
Lv.

Oklahoma City, Okla
Fair Grounds speech.
Oklahoma City (Santa Fe)

Ar.

Fort Worth, Texas

Lv. Memphis (Road)

5:00 p.m.
6:00 p.m.
11:00 p.m.

MONDAY, July 11.
Lv.

Fort Worth (F.W. & D.C.)

10:00 a.m.

Ar. Amarillo

6:45 p.m.

Lv. Amarillo

8:30 p.m.

Drive around city.
Lay-over enroute.
Clayton, N. Mex. Rear-end appearance.
TUESDAY, July 12.

Ar.
Lv.

9:00 a.m. MT
9:30 a.m.

Pueblo, Colo
Pueblo, (D.and R.G.)
WEDNESDAY, July 13.

Pass thru Salt Lake City 5:00 a.m.
Ar.
Lv.

6:00 a.m.

Ogden, Utah
Ogden (Southern Pac.)

5:15 a.m. P.T.

THURSDAY, July 14.

Lay-over some point during night.
9:00 a.m.

Ar. Crockett, Cal
Pablo Bay, stopping at

thence
to across
Motor Mare Island,
around San Sausalito,
Golden Gate Bridge to San Francisco,
Island

following route: Drive

thence Bridge) to by Treasure (on Shore Oakland

via Fort Mason, Van Ness Avenue to Golden

Gate Avenue (then street to be supplied)

221

-

Renta Fleet

San Fran. continued:

to Bryant Street approach to OaklandSan Francisco Bridge, to Exposition (Treasure
Island. Speech, luncheon, inspection.
2:30 p.m. motor to Oakland Pier; spend
evening on boat. Return Pier 10:00 p.m.

(On arrival train at Crockett, after party

has detrained, train equipment with baggage
will proceed to Oakland.)
Lv.

11:00 p.m.

Oakland, Cal
FRIDAY, July 15.

Ar.

E1 Portal

(Y.V.R.R.)

Leave train
Motor through Yosemite Park.
Luncheon.

Lv.

9:00 a.m. (?)
10:00 a.m.
7:00 p.m.

El Portal
SATURDAY, July 16.

Ar.

Los Angeles, Cal
Leave train

9:00 a.m.
10:00 a.m.

Motor through city enroute to San Diego.
Luncheon enroute (place to be selected)
Confidential.
Ar.

San Diego
Sail

3:00 p.m.
4:00 p.m.

222
June 28, 1938.
11:07 A.M.

Ransom:

Good morning.

H. M. Jr:

Hello, Rensom.

R:

How are you?

Jr: Fine. I had a message you called me yesterday.

M.

H.

Well, I did. I just wanted to tell you that I

R:

was pleased that - after much traveling and
suffering we had come out to a point where
there was a mutual agreement and I thought that
it was a definitely constructed step and that
we might hope from this point on that the
operation of this complicated examining mechanism
might work better.

H. M. Jr:

Well, I agree with you and I want to thank you
so much for the help you've rendered in bringing
us together.
Well -

R:

H. M. Jr:
R:

H.

I think.

I had the objective of trying to M. Jr: Well, you had it right from the beginning, Ronald,
and it was most helpful and well, without knowing
the details I imagine some of the troubles that

you had.

Life isn't simple in Washington, I've found that

R:

out.

H. M. Jr: No. And , oh, I don't know that there's much use
in hanging over the thing.
Not a bit.
R:

H.

M.

Yes.

R:

H.

R:

Jr: After all, the President gave us a job to do.

M.

Jr: We're all Presidential appointees.
Yes.

H. M. Jr: And the only thing that-that got under my skin
was that without mentioning any names certain

people criticized publicly other people for their

bank examinations.

-2R:

Well, now, may I ask you to do this for me

H. M. Jr:

Certainly.

223

sometime at your convenience.

I'd like to have about a. half hour with you not to discuss big complicated personalities
involved but to try to give you something of
my own - plurality tax - what are the problems
involved in the whole thing of bank examinations.

R:

H. M. Jr:
R:

H. M.Jr:

I'd be delighted.
And to tell you what I think we are faced with
and I think it's a major governmental problem.
I'd be delighted.
Well, you're going out of town, I know, sometime.

R:

H. M. Jr: Well, I'll be here for the next two weeks.
You are. Well, may I call you some time in that
R:

two weeks? And take that much of your time?

H.

M.

Jr:

It would be a pleasure.

All right, thanks.

R:

H. M. Jr:

Now, I'm having a young lady for lunch today,
by the name of Shirley Temple.

R:

Oh, you are.

H. M. Jr:

So I'm going to ask you and Eccles if you'll

R:

All right. Frankly, I think you're very fortunate

come around Thursday.

having Miss Temple dine with you, because I've

never met the young lady, but I'd

H.

M. Jr: Well, she's old friend of mine.

R:

Well --

H. M. Jr:

And, if you and Marriner will come around Thursday

R:

All right. Thank you Mr, Secretary.

at one o'clock I'd be delighted.

224

June 28, 1938.
11:13 A.M.

H. M. Jr: Hello.
Operator:

Chairman Eccles.

H. M. Jr: Thank you.
Operator: Go ahead.

H. M. Jr: Hello - Marriner.
E:

Hello.

H. M. Jr: I'm going to ask you if you'll give way to a
young lady who I'm having for lunch today.

E:

H. M. Jr:
E:

Well, I understand that we've got some pretty
tough competition in Shirley Temple.

That's right.
Well, we'd be delighted of course to give way
to any such company as that, both for your
sake and for her sake.

H. M. Jr:

But mostly for mine. I thought if you and Ronald

E:

Thursday?

would come around Thursday at one o'clock I'd be
delighted.

H. M. Jr: Yes.
E:

All right. I'll put that down.

H. M. Jr:

Will you?

E:

I think Ronald will be here, if he isn't I'll

bring one of the other members over.

H. M. Jr: Swell.

-2George Harrison is down and I - I've been
talking to him - talked to him yesterday and
then last week again with reference to our
problem in replacing some of these bills.
Suggested that while he's here that if we might
come over this afternoon for a few minutes and
discuss with you just what the problem is.

E:

Jr:

well, any time. I have any time that's convenient to you will suit me this afternoon
and I'm sure it will him.

E:

H.

What time would you like to come?

M.

Jr:

E:

3:30?
3:30?

H. M. Jr: Yes.
E:

H. M. Jr:
E:

All right.
Is that too late for him?
Well, I don't think so. He's - he said he's

going to - he said he's staying down here over
the Fourth. He's not going back, so he'll be
around here, I imagine.

H. M. Jr:

3:30 all right?

E:

3:30.

H. M. Jr: All right.
All right. Well, thank you.
E:

H. M. Jr:

Thank you.

E:

You're welcome.

225

226

June 28, 1938.
3:45 P.M.

Operator: Mr. Oliphant.
H. M. Jr: Yes. Herman Yes.

0:

H.

M.

Jr: I have a very difficult telegram here from Gianinni

with regard to the Bank of America and the National
Labor Relations Board Rulings.

0:

Uh huh.

H. M. Jr:

I'm sending it back to you.

0:

Yes.

H. M. Jr:

And I'd appreciate it if you would advise me what
I should do and if necessary alternative step or

a definite step, but give it to me as - oh, better
say tomorrow morning 9:30. You can say well, Henry,
you can do one of two things, or this is the only
thing - you get me.

Yes.

O:

H. M. Jr: In other words I want it as definite as possible.
O.K.

O:

H.

M. Jr: I think I see something in the papers about this.
Yes.

O:

H. M. Jr:
O:

H. M. Jr:

Yes. I saw the rulings - one of the first white
collar rulings.
Yes. Well, didn't they ask also - hasn't this been
up before - National Relations Board in connection
with the Bank of America?

O:

I don't think 80.

was over to see you about some gold mining companies

out there.

H. M.
O:

Jr: No. That was something else. Well, anyway, I'm
going to send it in to you.
Yes.

227

-2That meeting that Arnold was having yesterday H. M. Jr: Yes.
Was postponed till tonight at 8.
0:

0:

H. M. Jr: I see.
0:

Admiral and I will go and I think we agreed just
to
listen tonight and then we can report to you
tomorrow.

H. M. Jr:

I'd appreciate that.

0:

All right.

H. M. Jr: Thank you.

228

June 28, 1938
4:39 P.M.

H. M. Jr: Hello.
Hello, Henry.

K:

H. M. Jr: Hello, Joe?
Yes. How are you Henry?

K:

H. M. Jr:

I'm all right.
Well, I just called up to say good bye, and see
if you had anything on your mind.

K:

H. M. Jr:

No - except that I'm looking forward to seeing
the Kennedy family -

Well, we're going to be there. I talked with
young Jack and I sent a cable to dig up a couple
of star boats.

K:

H. M. Jr:
K:

Good.

So I'll hear from them when I get there next
Monday.

H. M. Jr:
K:

Good.

Now, Henry, I have a - I have a little memorandum a couple of memorandums here that I think one of
them you may be interested in. One of your boys
at work for me died over there.

H. M. Jr:

Gosh.

K:

I don't know that you know that but I'm going to

send you a memorandum tonight but it's something

I think you might want to interest yourself in.

H. M. Jr:

All right.

K:

A fellow died over there - one of your boys.

H. M. Jr: Yea
K:
And by God this great Government of ours will
transport the men back in every other department
H. M. Jr: Yes.

229

-2or the man's family but they'11 bring his body
home, but they'11 leave his wife and child over

K:

there.

H. M. Jr: Terrible.
And every other damn department does that. I

K:

think it's a damned outrage that they won't let
the Treasury do that.

H. M. Jr: Yes -

Is that that son of a bitch over there at the

K:

comptroller?

H. M. Jr: I wouldn't be surprised.
Yes. Well, do you want - I'11 send you the memorandum, Henry, because it's really heart-breaking.
K:

H. M. Jr:
K:

What about - you said you had a - were going to

give me a couple financial reports.
Yes. Well, I asked them to send them to you,
haven't they?

H. M. Jr: No.
Oh, well, God damn them. Well I'll send you mine
then. I asked them to send them to you.
K:

H.

M. Jr: No. I got nothing.

K:

H. M. Jr:
K:

H. M. Jr:

That's cooperation.
Where were they to come from?

From the State Department. They were the ones who
made the photostats. I brought one home of each.

They'11 come after a while.

The hell with it, I'11 send you mine now. I've
got another copy. One economics and one financial.
I'll send it to you now.
H. M. Jr: O.K.
Now, and I'll write you when I get back after I

K:

K:

talk with Butterworth as to what we need there.

230

-3H. M. Jr: Do that.
K:

And will you also think about - Henry - about
sending
Paris
- an - you've got an income tax man in

H. M. Jr:

Yes.

K:

Who gets occasionally to London.

H. M. Jr:

Yes.

K:

more

I think there's a hell of a lot/demand now at
London and getting to be there -

H. M. Jr:

Yes.

K:

If you can think - if you ever have one that you

can spare would be a good idea would save a lot of

dough.

H. M. Jr:
K:

Well, that sounds interesting.
And I'll send them both to you and we can talk
about it when you get aboard.

H. M. Jr:

Thank you.

K:

Good bye, Henry.

H. M. Jr:

Good luck.

K:

Good luck to you.

231

June 28, 1938.
5:21 P.M.

H. M. Jr: Hello.
Operator: Miss Doughton. Go ahead.

H. M. Jr: Hello.
Hello. Mr. Secretary?

D:

H. M. Jr: Yes.
D:

H. M. Jr:
D:

How are you?

I'm pretty well, thank you.
I saw my father this morning and he was

anxious to see you before he leaves tomorrow
evening.

H. M. Jr:

Oh.

D:

And he felt that it was asking too much, but still
you might come down to the hospital.

H. M. Jr:

I'd be very glad to.

D:

He's not going to be out before tomorrow afternoon

sometime, I think. But now, if you'd like me to

arrange an appointment, I mean if you can go down
there and let me know what you want - you. want to do.
H. M. Jr:

Well I can go down there about 11:30 if that would

D:

About 11:30?

be good for him.

Could you let me know in the morning?

H. M. Jr:

Yes.

D:

I will. Or I'11 call you back right away if you -

H. M. Jr:

I - I'm leaving now, Miss Doughton.

D:

You are.

H. M. Jr:
D:

H. M. Jr:
D:

You let me know in the morning. I'11 be in at nine.
You'll be there at nine.
I'11 be there at nine.

All right.

232

-2-

M. Jr: If that's not convenient, why I'11 try I think it will be. He might be down at the

H.

D:

capital.

H. M. Jr: Oh.

You'll understand his condition. He's getting

D:

along mighty well and he expects to go home
tomorrow night.

H. M. Jr: I see.
And he's not going to be able to get around

D:

very much, you understand.

H. M. Jr: Uh huh.
D:

H. M. Jr:

I beg pardon?

D:

H.

And if you could do it for him, I'm sure he'd
appreciate it.
Well I'd be more than pleased to do it.

M.

Jr:

D:

I'd be delighted to do it.
Well, you understand the situation.

H. M Jr: oh yes.
Uh huh. Well, suppose I give you a call early
in the morning, then, about nine. I'11 call the
office and I'll leave word.
D:

H. M. Jr:

Thank you, 80 much.

D:

If you're not there. And I thank you 80 much.

H. M. Jr: Good bye.
D:

Good bye.

233
June 29, 1938.
9:30 A. M.

GROUP MEETING

Present:

Mr. Oliphant
Mr. Gaston
Mr. White
Mr. Haas
Mr. Upham

Mr. Lochhead
Mr. Gibbons

Mr. Bell

Mr. McReynolds

Mrs. Klotz

H.M.Jr:

George, this business you have been sending me -

I want a copy for myself. I'm going to send it
up to the President. If you people are right,
I think you have made one of the most important
discoveries brought to my attention in a long
time. That is, Haas' crowd has worked out an
inventory chart and it looks as though, starting
last November, inventories reached their peak.
At the same time commercial loans began to fall

off, and the conclusion he draws is that the
commercial loans the people - the banks borrowed the manufacturers borrowed to build up their
inventories, and the fact that commercial loans
increased is interpreted by everybody as being
constructive, seems to have been quite the opposite,
and that having reached the peak of the inventories
in November, and the inventories rapidly dropping
off, why, commercial loans followed right along.

White:

That is about the only purpose commercial loans
are extended for.

H.M.Jr:

But am I correct - I have never seen it pointed

White:

I haven't seen the chart, but practically the
whole purpose the commercial loans are extended
for is to build up inventories - the bulk of

out before.

the commercial loans are for inventories.

H.M.Jr:

Have you seen it anywhere?

234

-2White:

No, I haven't.

H.M.Jr:

Everybody points out when commercial loans

increase it is bullish; when they go down it is
bearish.

Haas:

Sometimes if they increase ardinventories are
increasing and business is also increasing at

that rate, or faster, it is a bullish situation,

but a year ago when those increased in '37, that
H.M.Jr:

wasn't the case. Orders were falling off, you
see, and you are piling inventories up.
Well, as far as I know, it hasn't been published

Haas:

Nobody's

anywhere.

attempted - made an attempt to put

out an inventory estimate like that. I want to
comment a little bit on that estimate. I think

you should consider that in the same class of
that preliminary chart we had. It seems to check

with other inventory figures. It looks pretty
good.

H.M.Jr:

What I was going to suggest is this, because I

think if your inventory picture is correct, and

we passed the peak in November, I think it's
very important. I know the President remarked

to me about a month ago that two things he watched
most closely were commercial bank loans - he
wondered when they were going to turn up. Now,

if they hooked on inventories - I mean to me,
anyway, it is something quite new. Maybe everybody knew about it, but I have never seen an

inventory figure like this before. You see?

Maybe everybody does know it, but
White:

I didn't say everybody knows about it.

H.M.Jr:

But I don't think they have seen it - I've never
seen a chart like this.

White:

H.M.Jr:

It may be a very helpful chart.
Don't you see these figures, Harry?

White:

No.

235

-3H.M.Jr:

I thought copies go to White.

Haas:

Copies go to Taylor and Lochhead, and he sends
them over to Butterworth, and so on.

H.M.Jr:

I think I've mentioned at least twice that
White should get a copy - at least twice.

Haas:

H.M.Jr:

I don't remember.

Yes, definitely - at least twice. This always
comes up and White doesn't know what we're
talking about. Will you please see that he gets
one?

Haas:

H.M.Jr:

Yeah.

What I thought I was going to do - the reason
I'm making this long speech - I am raising the
point of my sending this out to the twelve Federal
Reserve Presidents, asking them to check this
with not only their own staff but with the commercial banks, if it doesn't make sense to them,
before I use it.

Haas:

They won't be able to check that inventory.

H.M.Jr:

They can go to the bank - I don't want to go to
the bank - I can go to XYZ Bank and say, "Have
your commercial loans been falling off, and your
customers reducing their inventories? Do you
take a look at all the angles of your commercial
loans, and inventories of your customers, and
have they been falling? We are sending you this
confidential chart and would like to have you
talk to the banks and ask them if they would

consult or confirm with us - or contradict it."

Haas:

Explain that this is an estimate we've worked out.

H.M.Jr:

If you'll prepare a letter for me I'll send it
out tonight, and ask them to have an answer for
me within a week. I want to test it. If I am
a banker and I am sitting there and if I've got
fifty customers, I can say, "Yes, this is right.
Inventories have been falling off and the loans

have, since November," or, "This is cock-eyed,
and there's another reason for it." I want to
take the fellow in Minneapolis and have him call
in a half dozen people and have him say, "Now

236

-4does this make sense or doesn't it," and I'd
like particularly to point out that we think the
peak of the inventory passed last November.

Haas:

H.M.Jr:

Uh huh.

"Will you please talk to some of your commercial
banks and ask them will they please check this

for us."

If - if this is right it's terrifically important,

because everybody is groping for a good inventory
chart.

H.M.Jr:

That's right.
Why I am so interested, if this thing is right
and we approach that thing again, maybe next time
we'll have something - a danger signal.

Haas:

Well, that's what we were working on, and we'll
have improvements on that thing too.

Haas:

H.M.Jr:

I am still groping for a good explanation of what
happened, and this is as good as any, taking
other facts into consideration, and if this thing
works, plus those figures for industry, and
enough industries production exceed their sales,
why, we ought to be able, six months in advance

Haas:

H.M.Jr:

to forecast another distorted position. And that
is - that is why I've gotten excited about this.
That's what we're working for.
I'd like to put this thing to the acid test and
go to twelve banks and if they consult ten

commercial banks, say a hundred banks - and they

will very quickly say - they will say this is
all right.
Haas:

Looks reasonable.

White:

Be a good contribution if the Treasury could
develop a good inventory index. If we have a good
one, moreover, I think it ought to be released
by the Treasury.

H.M.Jr:

I first thought I'd do this, and then thought, "No,
I'd rather wait a week and give these fellows that

237

-5go out over the Fourth of July - ask them if
it isn't rushing them too much, if I could have
the answer not later than the eleventh of July.
That gives them time to test - see, George?
Haas:

H.M.Jr:

Haas:

H.M.Jr:

Oliphant:

Haas:

Yes.

Then, while I'm gone I think you ought to take
that figure of consumption and production and

test that in the field. See?
That will be a little more difficult.
Well, think it out. Think it out.

I wonder if that took into account the extent
of which the inventories by the finance companies
on the one hand and the corporations themselves,
out of their reserves.
All it means, if these curves run together,
Herman, it means that the increases in that
type of financing ran along with the trends of
the commercial loans.

Oliphant:

Yeah.

H.M.Jr:

Well, you get my point?

Haas:

I get it - yes. The question about publishing,
we'll take that up later.

H.M.Jr:

Mac?

McReynolds:

I have a letter from Peoples - I didn't bring it

in. The Navy wants authority - wants Procurement
Division to contract with some outside architectural
firms to take care of some of this emergency

building activity around at the shipyard plants.
They 've got allotments for it and their staffs
can't take care of it and get it going by August.
And they haven't any authority to make the outside
contracts. They want to turn the money over to
Peoples and have him make the contracts with the

architectural firms in those localities, which is
a violation of your general rule with respect to
that.

-6H.M.Jr:

238

Say it again, Mac, will you, please?

McReynolds:respect
Navy has
a number of very
large
contracts
with
to construction
around
their
shipyard

plants. They haven't the personnel to hurry the
job through; they haven't the authority to go out
and get them under contract, but Peoples has.
They want to allot the funds to him, let him
make the contracts with the architectural firms just to cover a brief period of this particular
thing, but since it's a - it is not in accord
with your usual practice with respect to trade
"resumed" building, he wanted to check with you
before he made the contracts.

H.M.Jr:

I'll do it if the Secretary of Navy asks me to.

McReynolds: He's already asked you. I've got the letter.
Bell:

I think it's the shipbuilding program, isn't it,

and they are asking you to do it under "601,"
where one Department has the authority to do work
for another.

H.M.Jr:

See any objection to it?

Bell:

I think it's a good thing.

McReynolds:

I don't think there is any other way he can

H.M.Jr:

You both recommend it?

Bell:

I haven't seen it, but I think it's a good thing
where one organization has the personnel, and
- I think it's a good thing.
You get the letter ready by tonight and I'll
sign it tonight. What else, Mac?

H.M.Jr:

accomplish it.

H.M.Jr:

I don't know.

H.M.Jr:

(Nods to Mr. Bell.)
Senator Bilbo put through the Senate in the last
day, a resolution which requires the Secretary
of the Treasury to furnish the Senate, as early
as practicable, a statement of all balances
standing on the books of the Treasury on June 30,

Bell:

-7-

239

1938, due from the United States as unpaid, and
it supplements a report made on July 28, 1886.

That report, at that time, took six months to
compile, and constituted two hundred pages. This
one, I should say, would take at least a year
and probably would be a thousand pages.

H.M.Jr:

Bell:

H.M.Jr:

Bell:
H.M.Jr:

Have we any funds?

No funds with which to do it, and this is what
I'd like to do, because it says, "At the earliest
practicable date." I'd like to make a report to
the Senate in January, telling them it's a big
job, will cost a lot of money, and it's a very
dangerous thing to do, because when you put out
all these names, with their addresses, it gives
the lawyer - the shyster lawyer - something on
which to come into the Treasury and prosecute these
claims that are fifty and a hundred years old,
and there has been a lawyer in town that's tried
to get these names from us for the last six or
eight years, and I think he's worked through
Bilbo and gotten this resolution introduced.
0. K. What else.
That's all.
You write me up what happened.

(Nods to Mr. Gibbons.)
Gibbons:

(Nods "Nothing.") Nothing, except Mrs. Klotz
talked to you about this fellow in Hoey's office
who was there for twenty-three years.

H.M.Jr:

Now look, Hoey has talked to my wife, and has
said he wouldn't even talk to me in he sees me,
and as far as I am concerned,-Mrs. Morgenthau
was up there and said he was extremely rude.

Gibbons:

That's his natural disposition. It's a savagely
desperate thing to do a thing like that - put
him out after twenty-three years.

H.M.Jr:

Can you give Mac the facts?

Gibbons:

He was kept there all during the Republican
administration.

240

-8H.M.Jr:
Gibbons:
H.M.Jr:

Give Mac the facts and Mac can handle it just the
way he handled the other case.

It's just one of those terrible things.
If you will give Mac the facts and Mac will telephone for the man's records and as soon as he

gets it, I'll look at it. Give it to him right
Gibbons:

away and he'll phone for it.
It's none of my business, but it's a question of
humanity.

get them every day.

H.M.Jr:

I

Gibbons:

This fellow is terrible young - gets an idea in

H.M.Jr:

You give Mac the facts. I'll get it. Thanks for
bringing it to my attention.

his head

McReynolds: Your architect is staying on the roll this

month. We could not reach him on the phone.

Gibbons:

If this fellow is all right keep him on for a week.
I thought I'd talk to Joe Higgins.

H.M.Jr:

Leave this fellow on for two weeks - until we

Klotz:

One is as desperate as the other.

Gibbons:

He has no Civil Service status, and it's just
terrible.

H.M.Jr:

Keep him on until the fifteenth of July - until

Gibbons:

It's terrible. This fellow's crazy, I think.
0. K. That's all.

H.M.Jr:

(Nods to Mr. Lochhead.)

Lochhead:

The Water District Bonds enjoyed a good secondary

H.M.Jr:

can take a look at it.

we can take a look at it, Mac.

distribution. They have practically settled down.
You don't hear anything about them in the market.
The trouble with the stock was evidently, due to

241

-9-

McReynolds: California District bonds.
After they got that straightened out and managed
Lochhead:
to allot the proper type of bonds to the secondary
dealers - it was the Los Angeles Water District.
Southern California Water District is the name
H.M.Jr:

of it.

Lochhead:

But the point is, in regard to the bonds, they
apparently expected the insurance companies to
rush in and take the big bonds, which they did

not do, and they had to go down to the secondary

districts.
H.M.Jr:
Upham:

(Nods to Mr. Upham.)

I passed the buck to you on that telegramInfrom
the
Giannini - not intentionally, but
mean time I have drafted a suggested reply.

H.M.Jr:

Will you give it to Oliphant, please.

Oliphant:

I have one here.

H.M.Jr:

Do you want to read it, please?

Oliphant:

"In regard to your telegram of June 28, I have
given careful consideration to your request that
the Treasury Department intervene in the National

Labor Relations Board proceeding before Examiner
Denham and am unable to accede to your request."

Now the situation on it is that while the Social
Security Act exempts the Government and the

instrumentalities of the Government, and under

that the Bureau's held that these national

banks,
H.M.Jr:

What Bureau?

Oliphant:

Bureau of Internal Revenue.

being instrument-

alities of the Government, are exempt. The

Wagner Act merely exempts the Government and doesn't

exempt any instrumentality of the Government. Now,
the Government owns no stock in Giannini's bank.

It's in no sense, the Government; at most it's an
instrumentality of the Government. I don't see
any basis at all under which

242

- 10 McReynolds:exempted
Under Social
Security
probably
have
national
banksthey
except
for thewouldn't
background

of the record at the time legislation was passed.

H.M.Jr:

Herman, inasmuch as we have started the word

"coordinative" bank examinations - is that the

word?
Upham:

H.M.Jr:

Coordinative.

Inasmuch as - if one of the agencies of the

examining banks would rule different I'll take
your word "coordinative" to tell the attorneys
for the F. D. I. C. Federal Reserve, and the
Comptroller of the Currency, what is the position,
and do they concur.

Oliphant:
H.M.Jr:

Well, I didn't want to speak to them until after
I talked to you.
We don't find that the Giannini telegram is one

of these babies, and he says, "You're exempt.
I mean, that might perfectly well happen, wouldn't
it?

Oliphant:
Upham:

I verified the Comptroller's Office hadn't ruled
on it. I think that would be a good plan.
I'd like awfully well if Mr. Oliphant would give
some consideration to a point of view I have on
this.

H.M.Jr:
Upham:

H.M.Jr:

He'd be delighted to.

I have it quite differently in mine.
He'd be delighted to. Let's leave it this way:
Give Mr. Oliphant what you have; Mr. Oliphant
will talk to the other people, but if they concur,
why - I mean, he'll give you a chance. Will you,
right after this?

Oliphant:

Uh huh.

H.M.Jr:

To present yours, but if I - if, early this after-

Oliphant:

Sure.

noon, I can have an answer from you - if you will
give it to Mrs. Klotz for me

- 11 -

Oliphant:

I'll send whatever you give me. It seems to
be a straight legal matter, but I do think, and
I recall - in calling him say, "Carrying . out
this principle of moving together."
And I'll call the General Counsel himself.

H.M.Jr:

Right.

H.M.Jr:

243

(Points to Mr. Upham.)
Upham:

I can give you a report any time on that insurance
matter that you spoke to me about on the train.

H.M.Jr:

All right. (Laughs) All right. Does he.

Upham:

(Laughs) No.

H.M.Jr:

0. K. What? He doesn't? All right. (Writes
note and hands it to Mrs. Klotz.)

I don't know that I spelled it right.
(Mrs. Klotz laughs.)
George?
Haas:

Mr. Secretary, on that matter you spoke about

this morning, in addition to this other - about

advisory groups - as I wake up I react more
favorably towards it - my reaction this morning.
H.M.Jr:

George, not to be personal, but when did you

wake up?
Haas:

You woke me up.

Oliphant:

You started to wake him up.

Haas:

It's a little bad time, I think; some will be on
their vacations; it's a bad week, and I thought

maybe we might be working them
H.M.Jr:

Well, ask them if they don't want to come. This
fellow, Bell, you see, I don't want to carry him.

Haas:

Would you have any objections? There may be some

advantage in this. We have these computations
made out - why not have them look over the whole
business?

244

- 12 H.M.Jr:

Haas:

H.M.Jr:

Bell:

Do. I want this advisory group to come down and
look over Haas' figures we have after the sixth
of July.

Would you like to have me tell you, in about two
sentences, about where it stands now?

I know - Bell told me.
One word will do it.

H.M.Jr:

That's on the lower range - it's your policy.
I think you'd do better.
Well, T think I'd ask Wesley Mitchell.

Haas:

I've got him. I'm all right. - I'm 'most

Haas:

H.M.Jr:

awake too.

And if you wake up a little later, George, and

want to change your mind, you still have a chance.

All right. Harry.
White:

You noticed the British sold a block yesterday
on net sales of stock notes - about two million
dollars net sales in England. Now today again

it's another half million, and if you look over

the past couple weeks, I think one can draw rather
a complexing conclusion that there is every reason three reasons the stability of the dollar seems
greater than it has been for some time. There
are prospects of the weakening of sterling, and
the stock market has been acting as it has, notwithstanding that there has been no net inflow
from stocks; in fact, there's been a net outflow.
I wonder whether the conclusion might not merely

H.M.Jr:

be from the point of view of British investors
that the upward movement is not going to be sustained. I mean, one might draw that conclusion.
That is their view, without considering its merits.
That is their view. Otherwise, I don't see how
one can explain their actions.
Well, I'd like to talk to you and Archie on that.
I've got a couple ideas of my own.

245

- 13 White:

Secondly, about this Chinese loan that Archie
told you about, the thought occurred to me, that
is a clear reflection of the grape vine method.
They heard what was being considered here and
they wanted to make very sure there was no

isolated action taken, for several reasons, and
I think that idea was sent right back that way.

H.M.Jr:

Well?

White:

I mean, that is

H.M.Jr:

You'll have to submit it.

White:

Then, Uruguay is getting in trouble, but I think
that can wait. We'll pick that up some time

later. That's all.

White:

You're coming for lunch today, aren't you?
Weren't you going to see us at ten about Siam?

H.M.Jr:

But you're coming for luncheon?

White:

Yes, but I thought you were going to see us before

H.M.Jr:

Yes - at ten. Herbert.

Gaston:

I've been getting several questions about the
Budget. I haven't had a chance though to ask

H.M.Jr:

that.

Dan about it, but one is for the fiscal year 1938 are the agencies and departments being asked to
impound ten per cent; and the other is for the
fiscal year estimate for the fiscal year 1939.
The story is that the Budget letter that went
out didn't ask them, as it did last year, to
hold their estimates within the limits of the
previous year's appropriation, but merely asked
them to be economical.

Bell:

That's right. There are so many of them that
have additional duties/on them, that there wasn't
much sense in asking them to stay within the

limits of the last appropriation. They didn't
stay in it last year.

246

- 14 Gaston:

You want to say anything on the ten per cent

H.M.Jr:

That's between the President and Bell; I have

Bell:
H.M.Jr:

thing?

nothing to do with it.
I didn't put anything in the letter.
I don't even know anything about it.

Bell:

When the sheets come in we are going to ask all
the Departments to put up reserves.

Gaston:

They are - were speaking about this year - 1928 -

Bell:

When the apportionments come in we will ask them

I mean '38.

to put up reserves.

McReynolds: You also asked that reserves be set aside on the
administrative expenses.
Bell:
H.M.Jr:

White:

On the administrative expenses we did ask for a

reserve of ten per cent.
I think you and Archie could be thinking, Harry,
about the release on the stabilization fund's
position as of January 1, 1938 - give out a statement of just what openings, since its inception
to January first, '38, and from now on we'll do
it every six months, with a six-months delay.
In connection with the International Capital
Movements Report, which is always at least from
six months - three to six months late

H.M.Jr:

When would be the next one?

White:

Oh, very soon - within a few weeks, I think.

H.M.Jr:

Well

White:
Gaston:

...
For the first quarter.
International Capital is going out now. It's
released this week.

- 15 H.M.Jr:

247

Has it been released?

Upham:

Yes. I forget what the release date is.
It's day before yesterday.

White:

But we are going to raise the question of changing

Gaston:

the form of that, if it's not ready yet, into

a release. It would be much cheaper and probably
equally effective, cutting down the data, and
not supplying all the weekly data, but merely the
summary data for the quarter.
I.M.Jr:

Then we would do it about September 1, wouldn't

we? In that connection, it just removes an item
that he may use it for campaign or for personal I don't see any reason in the world for that not
to be released.

Gaston:

Would that be your release or the President's?

H.M.Jr:

I can ask him, but I think it will be mine. Why
wait until they demand an investigation, and
so forth.

(Telephone.) Hello. Well, he'll have to wai
about five minutes. I'm sorry.
But will you people be thinking about that?
Gaston:

H.M.Jr:

Bell:

Yes, and I was just wondering about the legal
questions involved, - whether the authority
Well, everybody will have plenty of time, but

it's certainly - I'd like to do it.

There's certainly nothing in the law to prevent
its being done; every six months since its
inception.

H.M.Jr:

Yes - every six months. What?

Gaston:

Yes, I agree it should be gotten out.

McReynolds: It wouldn't be quite so vague when it finally gets
out.

248

- 16 H.M.Jr:

And September first would be a good time to get
it out - two months before the campaign, and just
my intuition says it's a good thing, unless somebody can give me a good argument on it.

Gaston:

I'd like to see it gotten out before September;
I'd like to see it gotten out now - within the
next two weeks.

H.M.Jr:

All
right. Will you people think about it,
Herbert?
Herman?

Oliphant:

I'd like to discuss this second shipment of silver.

Will you be prepared?

H.M.Jr:

Sure - good idea.

Oliphant:

I'm ready to report on that letting last night,
and I'd like to have a chance to talk it over

with you.
H.M.Jr:

Well, Congressman Doughton asked if I couldn't
come and see him, and I told him I could come at

eleven thirty. He's at the hospital. I am

waiting to hear from his daughter.
Oliphant:

He's still in the hospital?

H.M.Jr:

Yes. He's leaving this morning, and he wanted
to see me this morning.

oo0oo

249.

June 29, 1938.
10:13 A.M.

Gordon

Rentschler:Hello.

H. M. Jr: Hello.
Hello, Henry, I understand you won a boat race.
H. M. Jr: What?
I understand you won a boat race.
R:

R:

M. Jr: How are you?

H.

R:

I'm pretty good.

H. M. Jr:

What do you know?

R:

H. M. Jr:
R:

Well, things aren't 80 bad. We keep them going.
Anything on that railroad loan business?
That's what I called you about.

H. M. Jr: Yes.
R:

There's an enormous amount of stuff packed up.

H. M. Jr:

Yes.

R:

That could be loosened.

H.M.Jr: Yes.
R:

I talked with Jesse when he was up here last
Thursday.

H. M. Jr:

Yes.

R:

And Jesse's hunch was that he wanted to stick to
the rate of 4%.

H. M. Jr: Yes.
And that he was perfectly willing to waive one or
R:
two of the first - payments for the first two years
H. M. Jr:

Yes.

R:

And that he would go along as high as ten years and

he didn't talk about fifteen but his said he finally
ended up by saying anything that was reasonable.

250

-2H. M. Jr: Yes.
Now, in the meantime, these are the fellows I've
R:

talked to. To the General Electric in reference
to the prospective electrical equipment that they
could put on the rails if they're on this kind of
a basis.

H. M. Jr:

Yes.

And the darn stuff runs up - I've got these figures
here now - runs somewhere between two hundred fifty
and three hundred million dollars.

R:

M.

K.

Jr:

For Heaven's sakes.
Any- new

stuff that could be self-servicing
1f it were - if the railraods would buy it.
H. M. Jr: Yes.
R:

R:

Now, American Car and Foundry have got - they say

that - let's see - three hundred thousand - they've
got probably a specific number of cases here just kind of running my figures over here - representing Diesel engines alone - Diesel locomotives

of about a million dollars.

H. M. Jr: Yes.
And then they've got - other locomotives - I said
R:

American Car and Foundry - I meant American Locomotive
Company -

H. M. Jr:

Yes.

They've got other locomotives that will probably run
up to 25 or 30 million dollars more.
H. M. Jr: Yes.
R:

R:

Now, American Car and Foundry have at least that

much in cars. With probably 12 or 15 different
lines. And as far as machine tools are concerned, I
only checked with my old company and I find that

they've got inquiries now of a little over 2 million
dollars. It's two million two hundred and nineteen
six eighty-five. Representing about 20 different
railroads. Now I think that there's unquestionably
a base there if we could get the whole crowd
cooperating - of releasing quite a lot of immediate
stuff. Now along the line Jesse talked say of a
Hello -

251

3-

H. M. JR: Hello.

Say - from a ten to a fifteen year railroad

R:

obligation.

H. M. Jr: Yes.

Four per cent - the companies - Jesse's hunch was -

R:

the companies ought to stay in for at least ten per
cent which would represent their supposed profit.

H. M. Jr: Yes.

And I think that's perfectly fair. Of course, you'd
have the hurdle of no down payment, which, of course,
wouldn't put it on the basis of the ordinary equipment cost by the end of 2 or 3 or 4 years where
they'd be in that position.

R:

H. M. Jr: Yes.
R:

But I think it could be worked out to be sound
business.

H. M. Jr: Well, now, where's the log jam?
R:
The best way to do this is to say to these companies
why don't you go to your specific railroad - tell
them that you can - that you're ready to sell them
these goods at such-and-such prices and that you

will try to get them terms through the R. F. C. or
some other Government agency which will enable them
to buy as I've just outlined it to you. And then
let them submit those specific individual cases to
the R. F. C. as they come along.

H. M. Jr: Well, what I'll do is, I'll get hold of Jesse right
away, see? Hello.

R:

Yes.

H. M. Jr: Ask him whether he won't come over this afternoon and

see me and we'll sit down and talk about it. And I'll tell him I talked to you and just what you've
said and see whether we can't break this thing.

R:

And now, for instance, specifically, Henry, here's

American Locomotive again. They say proposition suppose you get a few of them in your mind.
H. M. Jr: Yes.

252

-4Proposition No. 1: - Rock Island.
H. M. Jr: Yes.

R:

20
to 25
Diesels five.
averaging 75 thousand each,
total
a million

R:

H. M. Jr:

I see.

They would like to offer - they would like to
have 15 years' time. No payment for the first
2 years - would be satisfied with the 4%. Now
the next one. Minnesota Transfer Company owned jointly by Northern Pacific and Great
Northern. Are in the market for four Diesels
total, for three hundred thousand dollars.

R:

Terms 15 years and the same as before.

H. M. Jr:
R:

H.

M

Well, then Northern Pacific one --

Jr: Now - I've got enough of it.

R:

You see?

H. M. Jr:

Yes, and -

R:

My hunch 18, that the way to do this is - to get
the most good out of it - is to have these very
salesmen of these big companies know that they
could do it. And after the first deal went
through - I think you have every darn one of
these companies including the ones we haven't
talked with - on Jesse's back trying to get terms
and orders and the very desire that they d have
to get business would drag the crowd in to you.

H. M. Jr:
R:

I get you.
And the broadness of the picture would be that

it wouldn't all be done with just one big rail-

road or one big industry but it would be good
with dozens of them all over the country.

H. M. Jr: I get you.

253

-5And I'd spread them to cars and locomotives and

R:

machine tools because they could all be justified on the bais of self-liquidating because
the saving they '11 make by using this new
equipment will let them pay them out in that
period.

H. M. Jr:

All right. I'm ever 80 much obliged and you'll

R:

Fine. Now, what else do you know?

most likely hear from me tomorrow.

Your bank examining reports I think are - plan -

R:

I think is getting over all right, don't you?

H. M. Jr: Yes.

Nobody is objecting to it at all.
H. M. Jr: No. A lot of people seem happy about it.
R:

R:

A lot of people seem happy, do they?

H. M. Jr: Yes, they do.
R:

What else do you know?

H. M. Jr:

Nothing just now. But - if this thing works, I

may ask you to come down and sit in with us, you
see?

R:

H. M. Jr:
R:

All right, fine.
I'll see just how it works.
Yes. But I think it's - I think the one important
thing in our present stage now, is not to let
anything come up.

H. M. Jr: Yes.
R:

That is going to stop letting fellows feel that
they're going to have a good business by fall.

H. M. Jr: That's right.
R:

There's been a great deal accomplished.

H. M. Jr: Yes.
In this last three or four weeks.
R:

254

-6H. M. Jr: Yes.
Some of these fellows that followed Alan Temple's

R:

turn in this commodity market, for instance, feel
very happy about themselves.

H. M. Jr:
R:

Yes.

Because we've had fellows buying quite a lot of
stuff - and - at least on paper they're money
ahead now.

H. M. Jr: Well, you'll hear from me most likely tomorrow.
R:

All right, Henry. Fine.

H. M. Jr: Thank you.
R:

Bye. Bye.

H. M.Jr:

Good bye.

255

June 29, 1938
10:30

(Preliminary to call of Minister of Siam who arrived at 10:45)
Present:

Mr. Lochhead

Dr. White

Mr. Lochhead: Have you had an opportunity t read

Harry's memorandum?

Dr. White: No, but I can tell you in a few words

what we agreed on.

HM,Jr: Yes, give it to me that way.
Dr. White: The bare facts are, they want to sell
23,000,000 ounces of silver which represents practically
all their monetary silver with the exception of some subsidiary coins. They have very adequate sterling reserves.
They are tied up very closely with England, financially,
economically and commercially. Their balance of trade
has been going against them recently, but apparently their
foreign exchange position is still very sound; therefore,
the only reason they want to get rid of it is, I suspect,
their British financial adviser is advising them that
silver is not as good as sterling as part of their specie
reserve.

Mr. Lochhead: They mentioned they wanted to sell
silver and get gold, earmarked gold.

Dr. White: But they have sterling which they could
easily convert into gold.
HM,Jr: Why should I buyit?

Dr. White: You shouldn't. No reason in the world,
with this possible exception, that you can't turn them
down without a good reason, and I think you have one and
that is that 11 runs counter to our silver purchase policy

256
-2-

which is to promote the use of monetary silver. Suppose
he responds, Well, you are buying Chinese and Mexican

silver. You can say that's different; there are special

reasons which are forcing them to sell; they need foreign
exchange and you are merely cooperating there.

HM,Jr: Not good enough, Harry. May I say, it is

my hunch, I am going to say I am just not interested;

very sorry, not interested. I told that to the British

attache, you know.

Dr. White: Would you tell him that before

HM,Jr: I will listen first.
Dr. White: There is this possible danger, and that
18 if it gets nosed about that you are not buying silver
it may be regarded as an indication that you contemplate
a change.

HM,Jr: 'I am not interested, Mr. Minister, but if
you ship your silver here our policy 18 we buy it at the
days price.
Mr. Lochhead: We are not discriminating against
anybody in this market.

HM,Jr: If you want to send it here, all right;
I can't refuse to buy it; that's your business.
Dr. White: Then it should be made clear to them

that shipments will take months and months and months.
Mr. Lochhead: If the man put up some argument
we don't know about that made the Secretary feel that

he should do something, I say even if you do get over-

come the maximum should be 2,000,000 ounces, which would
take several months.

HM,Jr: Let me have a little fun. Let me just

try it.

(At this point the Minister of Siam came in. The

conversation 18 recorded separately.)

257
June 29, 1938
10:45 am

Present:

The Minister of Siam (Phya Abhibal Rajamaitri)

Mr. Lochhead

Dr. White

HM,Jr: Too bad to have to leave Cape Cod to

come down here.

The Minister: Ihave to come on business. I

suppose you know the subject of the talk.

HM,Jr: I have a little inkling.
The Minister: The sale of silver. My country

appreciates greatly the opportunity given by the United
States Treasury in leeting me come to discuss the matter
with you. with the proceeds of this sale we are going
to ask the help of the United States Government to make
arrangement for the purchase of gold bullion, to be kept
in safe custody here or earmarked at the Federal Reserve
Bank of New York, as was done in 1931. Therefore, the
proceeds of the sale would be kept in this country in
the shape of gold bullion and we would appreciate greatly

if the Treasury will take a little in coin instead of
good delivery bars. That will help us a great deal.

HM,Jr: of course, Mr. Minister, that would be
impossible. We never do that. We only take delivery
in bars.

The Minister: I see.
HM,Jr: When people ship coins here, we test them.

Then we would advance 95% of the estimated value pending

the smelting of the coins into good delivery bars.
The Minister: I see.
HM,Jr: Do I make myself plain? I mean, supposing
your Government shipped us some coins.

258
-2-

The Minister: Yes.

HM,Jr: And they arrived here. Well, we test
them and if the test showed that they were all right

we would advance you 95% of the estimated value.

The Minister: I see.
HM,Jr: Then they would be smelted into good delivery bars and after they were smelted we would pay

you the difference less the cost of smelting.

The Minister: Yes. I see.
HM,Jr: But at present you can't get any smelting
done in -- how long does it take?
Mr. Lochhead: Considerable time. If on the West
coast, something might be done there, but the smelting

capacity of the refineries just now is very limited.
HM,Jr: You see we had this cable 80 I was a little

bit prepared and this would be the position which you may
convey to your Government. If your Government should
decide that they wanted to send some silver here, they

would have to do that entirely at their own risk.
The Minister: Yes.

HM,Jr: Our price of silver is made each day.
The Minister: Yes.
HM,Jr: We have a policy that if any Government

wants to send silver here, why we will buy it.
The Minister: Yes.

HM,Jr: At the price that day.
The Minister: Yes.
HM,Jr: But your people just have to make up their
mind whether they want to send it, how much they want to
send, and all that, but we can't make any promises as to
what we pay or what the price of silver will be the day
the silver arrives.

259
-3The

Minister: Yes. And the price of silver will

be determined on the day of delivery?

HM,Jr: Yes. Day of delivery.
The Minister: May I ask, will there be any charge

for melting?

HM,Jr: No.
Mr. Lochhead: When we speak about the price of

silver, for instance, today the price of silver is 43d
an ounce .999 fine, good delivery bars. When we buy
silver we pay that price for these bars delivered at the
mints or assay offices in the United States. In other

words, these good delivery bars must be delivered to the
mints or assay offices and then we buy them at that time.
Now, all the other expenses of shipping, of preparing the

silver, of amelting it, is all for account of the seller.
The United States Treasury makes no charge for anything
like that because it is not a concern of ours.

tax.

HM,Jr: No tax.
Mr. Lochhead: Wait a minute. There 18 also a
Certificates have to be furnished showing the cost

of that silver and if there is a profit between the cost
and the sale of the silver, a tax of 50% is due, whether
it's for the account of an individual or a Government.
HM,Jr: What I would suggest 1s that if the Minister
has time, you can take him, you and Dr. White, into Mr.
Magill's office and go into details. I just wanted to
explain the policy. As to details or how it can be arranged, Mr. Lochhead will be glad to explain it to you.
But I want to ask you if I have made myself plain as to

what the policy of our Government is towards buying silver.
The Minister: Yes.

HM,Jr: In other words, it's a day to day proposition.
The Minister: Yes. I don't know how long it would
take to come. We think it will take about, at most, six

months to ship, for example, to San Francisco.
HM,Jr: Six months?

260
-4-

The Minister: Yes, within six months anyhow.
Dr. White: You mean it will arrive in San Francisco?
The Minister: Yes.

Dr. White: But from that day there 18 considerable

lag until it is in form in which it is acceptable and the
price which you obtain for the silver 18 the one which
prevails at the time it is ready, not when it arrives.
The Minister: I will leave it to this Government to
decide.

HM,Jr: What I would do, so there is no misunderstand-

ing, I would talk to the Minister and then I would confirm
these technical points in writing, this whole question of
delivery, but I would give him a memorandum so there can't
beany possible misunderstanding. I think he ought to have
a memorandum. It's too important.
We will give it to you in the form of a memorandum,
what the conditions are under which we buy.

The Minister: Yes.

HM,Jr: And then we could get that to you -- by tomorrow morning?

Mr. Lochhead: Yes, sir.

The Minister: Yes, that's all right.
HM,Jr: Shall we send it to the legation?
The Minister: I can come in.
HM,Jr: If you come back, you (Lochhead) can make

an appointment. But I would give that in writing so he

thoroughly understands what the conditions are and you can
send this to your Government.

The Minister: Very kind of you, indeed.

HM,Jr: It's important and if we give you all the

information in advance there can't be anything to argue
about afterwards.

261
-5-

The Minister: With the proceeds of the silver
we will ask your kindness in giving us gold bullion.
HM,Jr: Well, whatever you wish to do, that would
be entirely up to you.
The Minister: We should leave all proceeds of this
in this country.
Mr. Lochhead: That would be a separate transaction;

that could be taken care of at the time of the sale.
The Minister: Well, sir, I am very much obliged
to you for your kindness to me.
000-000

202

262
June 29, 1938.
11:08 A.M.

H. M. Jr: Hello.
Hello.

E:

H. M. Jr: Hello, Marriner.
Good morning, Henry

E:

H. M. Jr: How are you?
E:

I'm pretty good. How are you?

H. M. Jr:

I feel all right. I mean, Marriner, I wondered

if this suggestion would meet with your approval.
You wrote me a letter going over this whole ques-

tion of what the various people reported that I've
said the last couple of months in various - oh magazines and 80 forth and 80 on and papers, see?

Yes.

E:

H.

M. Jr: I've asked Gaston and Upham to get the extracts
actually of my press conferences, you see?

E:

H. M. Jr:

Uh huh.

And what I'd like to suggest 18 that at your convenience the two of them come over and show you
copies of exactly what I did say, see? And then
you can have it.

E:

Well - of course the - all I was - what I was referring to is what the - what the press reported
and I realize that the press -

H. M. Jr: Well, they didn't quote me correctly.
They will take what's said often and put an interpretation on it and that's the difficulty with
our situation. For some reason or other they're you and I, I think, have to be unusually careful
because - because these fellows are always glad
to bring personalities into a picture when I suppose it makes more - it makes more interesting
public reading as long as they can do that. And E:

263

-2is
H.

M.

Jr:

E:

H. M. Jr:
E:

H. M. Jr:
E:

H. M. Jr:
E:

And the other reason/ that there seems to be
some people who are always anxious to make
trouble between the two of us.

Well - I - I - I suppose 80. The Press just
don't help it out. Now, for instance, when
you put a deadline on your report to the
President Yes.

They make headlines in all the papers here
Morgenthau gives Eccles 24-hour ultimatum.
Yes.

You know that - that's terrible.
Well - I'm. -

But that's just what the darn - that's just
what the fellows do and - well - of course -

I understood that you wanted to get this report
over to the President and - and it wasn't a
question of an ultimatum it was a question of
fixing a deadline to-to - of making a report.

H. M. Jr: Well E:

That's just typical of what - what - what happens
and that the public get a terrible impression and

that - that - that the administration here are all
in a hell of a fight or some other sort and of
course it's bad for everybody.

H. M. Jr: Well, I think you'd feel better if you read just
what I did say.

E:

H. M. Jr:

Well - I'd be glad to see it. I - I'd be glad to
see it and I -Supposing I tell Gaston to call you and you come
over at your convenience?

All right.
H. M. Jr: And - he's got the stuff all dug out.
E:

284

-3-

All right. Well - I - I - I didn't mean

E:

-

I didn't mean to

H. M. Jr: No.

Tell you in that letter to prolong anything
But if I didn't feel 80 terribly upset - I I wrote that last week and I felt upset about

E:

the whole damn thing.

H. M. Jr: Well - I - it's much better to let it come out
on the surface and-

Well, that's right. I - I can't help it,
Because I can't live with myself unless I do.
I just can't - I just can't - if I feel a thing

E:

strongly enough I don't sleep and I get upset
about it.

H. M. Jr: Well, I got a bet - that - see I felt - the
E:

thing that hurt me was - I felt that you didn't
trust me to transmit your letter, you see? And -No, you ought to know better than that. Hell I -

H. M. Jr:

And that's what hurt, see? I thought.

E:

Did you - did you read - did you read that memo-

H.

randum of mine?

M.

Jr: No, I didn't.

E:

H. M. Jr:

Well, I wish you'd read it because I'm perfectly
sure that He returned it to you when I wrote my letter.

I made no suggestion of any kind to the President

what he should or shouldn't Bay. I just refrained
from making any suggestions.

E:

Yes.

H. M. Jr: I mean I simply sent a statement, memorandum, I'M
E:

enclosing the following stuff, etc., etc., 1,2,3,4 But, what I said -

265

-4H. M. Jr: IMarriner,
simply felt
well, now this is funny, here
he - he wants to make sure that

this thing gets to the President and I delayed
sending mine, and took it over there at 12:30

on Friday, waiting all the time to get it,

you see? Then I come back from cabinet and
they tell me here's a memorandum from Eccles,

a copy of which he sent the President. I said
well, hell, doesn't he trust me enough to send
the memorandum over as it's written?

Well, it wasn't a question of - of - of the

E:

slightest agreement on the memorandum as a

technical document, and as I had stated the

day before in - at the time we met - I said-

I said - I feel that - that this ought to be -

that a statement should be made with reference to
this because there has been 80 much discussion
and so much misunderstanding and it is of such
public importance and - and because of the

technical nature of it that I thought that

-

that a statement should be made and I briefly as your record will show - outlined to you what

I thought might be said. Just H. M. Jr: Well - the point And you said - well, -- if you want to - if you
E:

want to make a statement of that sort - prepare
something - I'11 be very glad to have you send

it over to the President, or I'11 be glad to
take it over.

H. M. Jr: Yes.
E:

But now - now that - 80 - 80 - I didn't get it

prepared as soon as I expected because there is just
more work to those things than one thinks. So

I didn't get it ready until - until late Thursday
night. And I checked it up again Thursday - Friday
morning and - and then I sent it over. Well, youyou - you of course were away, you weren't there it was over there I guess - it must have been there
three or four hours before you were there.

H. M. Jr: Well, I only gave my list to the President oh -

it was about a quarter of one when I handed it to him.

266

-5H. M. Jr: He - he.
Well, you see, my, this - this memorandum of

E:

mine wasn't - wasn't in any way -- I wish you'd

read it because if you'd read that memorandum -

H. M. Jr: I will.
You'll find that it was - it was an entirely --

E:

purely - purely an explanation of what this
meant, see? The thing that I felt the President
would be very much interested in because of the

technical nature of the - of the - of our

memorandum. Our memorandum was pretty largely

technical and only bankers and those working

with it would really understand it.

H. M. Jr: Well, now that it's all washed up aren't you
satisfied the way it was given out?
E:

I feel all right about it.

H. M. Jr:

So do I.

E:

I feel all right about it and - the - press gave
-- gave a good - pretty good interpretation of
it - I would have felt a little better if we

a

could have - all agreed to a statement, but I
realize that that would have been practically
impossible in the time available for us to agree
to another - a public statement, and therefore,

about the only thing I'm supposed to do under
the circumstances, unless the President himself
has chosen to - to give something out, was to do
exactly what was done. Now, I mean, as a prac-

tical matter I can see that that is the situation.

H. M. Jr: Now, well, I'11 -E:

Well, you promise me to read this memorandum I

sent to the President because I want you to

read that and then I'm sure if you'll read that

you'll find that -H. M. Jr: I'll read it tonight.

267

-6
That - I - I know - Gaston didn't tell me that

E:

he was - Thurston said when he was over to the
press conference that Gaston had said that he
thought the memorandum was excellent.

H. M. Jr:Now,
Well,one
I'llother
readthing.
it tonight.
I got it Unless that you've got
something special that you want to take up on
Thursday, I thought it would be nice to have
Diggs, and Crowley, and Jesse eat with us.

E:

That's fine. I haven't a thing.

H. M. Jr: Well, my thought was that then we could ask
them how are they going to put this thing
into effect?
E:

Uh huh.

H. M. Jr: And have a little follow-up.
Well, I can - I can say this that I talked to
E:

Crowley - our - our examination boys talked
to me the other day - McKee is away - and they
talked to me and I said well, one thing we

ought to do is to see to it that-that we don't
get off on the wrong foot again.

H. M. Jr: Well - I -E:

When I called Leo up day before yesterday and I

said - I understood, you see, that he was calling
some of his fellows in and I made this suggestion I said Leo, let me suggest that none of us call
anybody in from the field until - your the head
of your division and the head of our division
and the head of the comptrollers let these technical
men sit down and write this thing up they won't have
any difficulty now getting along because the questions
of policy have been decided. And - but before they
bring their people in - it seems to me that they
should have a - a - the thing all drawn up and
outlined and Leo - Leo agreed 100% I didn't want
him to go out and call them in because they - I
thought they might do that. Now, he agreed to that
100% and said he was going to talk to -- he-he'd
have his men talk to Gus Folger who's in charge of
the comptroller.

268

-7H.

M.

Jr: I've heard a couple little rumblings and - and

E:

I think it would be a good hunch if we sat down
together and just see what they're doing, see?

Well, I think - that - that's O.K. with me and
the only reason I called was that I had heard

the same thing and I wanted to - I wanted to spike
any - any chance of any agency going out with with the thing all drawn up before they had consulted the other agencies.

H. M. Jr:
E:

H. M. Jr:

O.K.

And I told our fellows to be dam good and sure
that nothing was done until it was checked with
the other two agencies.
Right. Then I'11 see you tomorrow and I'11 get
the other men here. And I'll have Gaston come
over and see you.

E:

Well, that's fine. Well, thanks for calling.

H. M. Jr:

Thank you.

E:

Good bye.

269

June 29, 1938.
11:21 A. M.
H.M.Jr:

Hello.

Operator:

Mr. Hanes.

H.M.Jr:

Hello.

Hanes:

Hello.

H.M.Jr:

Hanes.

H:

Yes sir.

H.M.Jr:

Morgenthau.

H:

Yes sir.

H.M.Jr:

How are you?

H:

Fine, how are you, sir?

H.M.Jr:

All right. Well, I'm getting out the bottle of

H:

champagne to baptize you on the first of July.
Well, have you talked to my boss yet?

H.M.Jr:

No, I'm through talking to him.

H:

(Laughs) Are you? Well, I don't - I don't know I think we're going to have a meeting tonight in
which I hope to close up my end of this thing and
button it up tight with - so far as the exchange
is concerned. I've been working like a beaver to
try to get the thing closed. And we're having

a meeting tonight with the present chairman of the
stock exchange.

H.M.Jr:
H:

Yes.

At Bill Douglas' house - and as soon as I'm
through with that meeting I'll know definitely
then whether I'm through my work or not. And

H:

I think Bill would like to talk with you tomorrow. Tomorrow is the first, isn't it?
No. Friday is the first.
Friday's the first.

H.M.Jr:

Yes.

H.M.Jr:

270
-2-

Well, I think Bill will be ready to talk to-

H:

morrow morning. We'll know one way or the
other whether we're going to - whether we're

H.M.Jr:

H:

going to close our deal or not tonight.
Yes. Well, now I - see, at that luncheon I
left if, as I remember it - you can check my
memory - that if there was any question he was
to call me.
Yes. That's right. And then he went to
California.

H.M.Jr:

Yes, but

H:

And that - that

H.M.Jr:

Yes.

H:

Went out there for about two weeks.

H.M.Jr:

Yes. And -

H:

H.M.Jr:

H:

That's right. Your understanding is correct
that he was supposed to call you.

Well - well, let's you and I understand each
other, because I happen to have my understanding
with the President, see
Yes.

... that - unless Douglas or you call up, why, I -

H.M.Jr:
I

H:

H.M.Jr:

- I'd like to swear you in on - on Friday morning.

Well, that's all right by me, as far as I'm concerned. Now, if - if it - if it isn't all right
by him, why, then it's up to him to come to you
and talk to you, I think, don't you?
I think so. And the suggestion which I made to you,
which is purely up to you, that if you want to help
them out in the afternoon

H:

Yes.

H.M.Jr:

Why ...

271
-3H:

H.M.Jr:

I will have to do some - I will have to do some
odds and ends here which I haven't finished, and
which I did promise him that I'd finish.
But, you see - first place, we want you, and I I don't want to talk to the public - I - I don't
want to get - your coming here getting off to
a bad foot. And they all expect you over here

on the first of July.

H:

Yes.

H.M.Jr:

And so I'll leave it now today that - that if I

don't hear from either you or Douglas I'll expect
you over here, say, ten o'clock Friday morning?

H:

All right. Fine.

H.M.Jr:

What?

H:

I'd - I'd like to see you for five minutes some

H.M.Jr:

Well, yes. Do you want to see me tomorrow?

H:

Yes, sir.

H.M.Jr:

11 o'clock?

H:

Well, if you - may I call you in the morning?

H.M.Jr:

Absolutely.

H:

time between now and then.

If - the only thing - the reason I say that is

because we're having these people here from the
stock exchange and whether they'11 be gone in

the morning or whether we'll be - up - to - I
just don't know what the schedule will be.

H.M.Jr:

Right.

H:

No may I call you in the morning?

H.M.Jr:

Do that.

H:

All right.

H.M.Jr:

Thank you.

H:

That's fine, thank you so much.

272

TREASURY DEPARTMENT
WASHINGTON

June 29, 1938

CONFERENCE IN THE SECRETARY'S OFFICE

ON JUNE 28, 1938

Those present besides the Secretary were Chairman Eccles

of the Board of Governors, Federal Reserve System; Governor
Harrison of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York: and myself.
Chairman Eccles said that they had come over to discuss

the Treasury bill program and its relation to the investment
policies of the Federal Reserve System. He said the Treasury

decision to retire $50,000,000 a week in Treasury bill maturities

over the next five weeks made it very difficult for the Federal
Reserve System to replace its maturities of Treasury bills.
They hold a substantial amount of the maturing Treasury bills
and under the policy adopted by the Investment Committee of
the System the maturities must be replaced by Government securities

maturing within a period of not to exceed two years. Their action
in the market to replace these maturing Treasury bill issues has
run the market up until the two-year notes are now selling on a

one-tenth of one per cent yield basis. This will continue until
July 27 when the Treasury will begin to sell $50,000,000 a week

additional to the maturing Treasury bills, at which time the
Federal Reserve will be out of the market. and the market might

as a result of the System's inactivity. substantially decline.

273

-They have, therefore, two questions of policy which must
be decided, and before they talk to the Investment Committee

they want the Secretary's reaction. The first is: Shall the
Federal Reserve System continue to replace its maturing Treasury

bills by the purchase of Government securities in the market:
and the second is: Shall the Federal Reserve System allow the

maturities to run off and thereby decrease the investment port-

folio. The first case, of course, will run up the market unduly
during the next five weeks, while in the second case the banks,

unless it is properly explained to them, might misinterpret the
action of the System in allowing its portfolio to be decreased.
Then, too, if it does not buy other securities and thereby put
additional money in the market, it probably would be accused,

particularly if there is a summer recession in business, of not
cooperating with the Federal program and that the action they have
taken has really been responsible for the summer recession.

Governor Harrison said that he is acting on instructions
from the Committee to replace the maturing Treasury bills with

other securities maturing within two years. Because of these
instructions and due to the Treasury policy of retiring $50,000,000
in Treasury bills each week, he has been put in the very embarrassing
position of having to ask the banks in New York to let him have
this short-term paper as an accomodation to the System. He said

274
-3that of course this immediately raises the question in the minds
of the bankers as to what kind of a money and credit policy is

really being followed. He would prefer to see the bills run
off and allow the portfolio to decrease, but he realizes the
implications involved in that action and that the Board might be
blamed for any summer recession which might occur.

The Secretary told these gentlemen that the Treasury had
announced its Treasury bill program and that he did not see how

he could change it at this time. If he changed it the public
would want to know why, which, to answer, would involve not only

the Federal expenditure program but also the policy of the
Federal Reserve System. He thought it would be much better to

let the Treasury policy regarding Treasury bills stand and the

Board change its policy with respect to its investments. He
said he realised that if the Board allowed the portfolio to
decrease and we have a summer recession it would be blamed. He

also realizes that if the Board is required to go in the market
and purchase Government securities, the market will go up and

when they get out of the market at the end of July that it might
also decline.
Governor Harrison then raised the question as to whether,
in this decline, the Federal Reserve System would be expected to

buy additional Government securities in order to support the

275

-4 market.

The Secretary said he did not necessarily feel that that

would be its responsibility. He is leaving about the middle of
July and he expects to leave orders with Mr. Taylor to invest
Government funds up to $50,000,000 while he is gone, to support

the market if any support is necessary. He also said that he
agreed with the statement previously made by Chairman Eccles that
the authority of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York should be

breadened so as to permit it to buy securities maturing beyond
the two-year period. Chairman Eccles suggested authority to

purchase securities maturing up to a five-year maturity.
The question was raised as to whether they should not for

this period throw off all limits and permit the bank to buy for
the System's account long-term bonds in a reasonable amount in

order to distract the banks attention from their buying of the
real short maturities.
The matter was left with the understanding that Chairman
Eccles and Governor Harrison would discuss it with the Investment

Committee and try to get authority to replace the Treasury bill
maturities by the purchase of other Government securities with

maturities a great deal longer than the two-year period.

DWB

276

June 29, 1938

To:

The Secretary

From:

Miss Lonigan

MK

as

The Work Relief Act of 1938 contains the following
items which are important for social policy:
Production for Use

The provision allocating funds for educational
and professional projects is extended to include
"production - - - and miscellaneous non-construction
projects".

This is direct revival of production-for-use on a
Government wage basis. (It seems to bar all possibility
of production-for-use on a self-help basis, with workers
being paid only what they earned, as in any cooperative.)
This revival of production-for-use under the WPA could

be used to set up the same Federal control of industry which
Mr. Hopkins was working on last Fall in the price and industrial studies for which Mr. Henderson was his spokesman.
Rates of Pay

Rates of pay shall be not less than prevailing
rates of pay.

This applies prevailing rates, which are established

for workers in industry, to all workers, including agriculture and domestic service. Its effect will be to intensify
the displacement of rural labor and its migration to the

-2cities, like what was reported as happening so rapidly in 277
Texas, and is also happening in rural Iowa and Illinois.
It offsets the normal cyclical tendency for workers to

return to rural areas when industrial work is limited in
amounts. It transfers workers to sections where maintenance

costs are highest. It increases crowding on the land, and
the pressure on sub-standard housing. (This is the process
which went on for years in Puerto Rico under the Hurricane
Relief Commission, and resulted in the deplorable conditions

which the President inherited there, and which were quite

falsely ascribed to the sugar corporations.)
In comparing prevailing rates in industry and in WPA it
is essential to remember that WPA rates are paid for 52 weeks,

and virtually no industry can provide work for a full 52 weeks
a year. In New York State we found 40 weeks nearer the maximum. That immediately gives WPA a 30 percent advantage.

This raising of the lower wage levels of WPA provides an
unlimited reservoir of people for whom WPA employment "must"

be provided. The effects on the budget are obvious.
End of Relief Test
Applicants in need whose names have not been placed

on relief rolls are eligible for WPA employment equally

with workers on relief rolls.
This is excellent if wage rates are kept lower than
prevailing wages (security wage principle). Otherwise it
is just one more intake pipe through which the reservoir of

-3-

278

applicants for WPA work can be kept full.
Permanent Employment for Emergency Workers

Any relief worker who has been engaged on any Fed-

eral or non-Federal project financed in whole or in part
by the Federal Government shall not lose his eligibility

for restoration to relief rolls or for reemployment on
other
- - projects.
This provision is an excellent device for encouraging
workers to leave relief rolls, provided wage-rates are lower

than annual rates in private industry. With higher rates, it
merely provides permanent eligibility for work on terms which

industry cannot meet. It gives the worker on relief or Federal
employment preferred status over workers who have tried to main-

tain themselves in private industry, especially those on parttime.

Quarterly Statement of Earnings

This is excellent if followed through.
Government Employment for Farmers
Farmers "who are in need and who need employment

to supplement their farm income but who are not on

relief rolls" shall have the same eligibility for WPA
projects in rural areas as those on relief.
This again is another intake pipe into the reservoir
of those for whom WPA employment "must" be provided, once

they get accepted on the rolls. It commits the Federal Government to the policy of creating employment enough to provide
farmers with supplementary income, in addition to present

-4

279

farm benefit programs. Since WPA has complete control of

the definition of "need" it can constantly lower that entrance
level in rural areas as it has been doing in urban areas.

These farm projects will do little or nothing to help
displaced farm labor which is moving to the cities and villages.
Supplement for Private Employment
Any WPA worker who takes private employment shall

"at the expiration thereof be entitled to immediate resumption of his previous (WPA) employment status if he

is still in need".
This again is excellent if carefully hedged about. But
in Cleveland and Detroit where virtually every able-bodied
worker is promptly drawn into WPA this gives them unlimited
claim to WPA supplemental employment. The definition of
"need" is at least twice as liberal for WPA employment as

for relief.
WPA Candidates for Office

The bill prohibits "any person in a supervisory or
administrative position" from running for office while
working for WPA.

It does not prohibit WPA workers themselves from running

for office while on WPA rolls. The way in which local politicians sought to nominate WPA workers for local office, in
order to increase their connections with WPA, was described

in the report on Illinois.
Purchase of Clothing

Mr. Hopkins stated at the conference with Secretary Wal-

lace and Mr. Tapp and Mr. Wilcox (after you had left) that he

--

280

had "a good deal more than $25,000,000 to spend in purchases

of clothing if he wished. This was a clear and unequivocal
statement.

I have been unable to locate any provision in the bill
under which he expects to exercise that power.

General Relief Funds in Agriculture
The Secretary of Agriculture has $175,000,000, plus

balances available, for "administration, loans, relief
and rural rehabitations".
Summary

The Federal Government is now undertaking to provide work,

not only for those on relief, but also for those "in need", for
workers who have previously been on any part of the Federal

program and lost their jobs in WPA, PWA or in private industry,
and for farmers who need work to supplement their incomes.

Since it is easy to change the definition of need, it is possible to increase constantly the number of people eligible
for continuous aid.
The Government is also beginning a program of purchasing

marginal supplies of materials in key industries, which will
have the usual effect of marginal purchases, in affecting the
entire industry.
These two programs together come very close to adminis-

tered industry.
Outlook

Even if there is no problem of finances, I do not believe
that there is skill enough available at present to create centralized emergency employment for so many workers. Emergency

-6-

281

employment can be provided only for a small segment of our

population. Overloading projects and calling it "work" does
not provide any of the psychological or vocational benefits
of work. The social security principle, by which unemployed
workers are given small cash allowances and left to their own
judgment to spend them, must still be depended upon for the

bulk of the unemployed population. The social security
principle helps to bolster normal employment, whereas creation
of more and more "emergency employment" tends to increase all

the elements of instability.
The social program for next year will I assume be prepared next November and December. I shall continue to

collect information on the social effects of the present
program for your possible use in formulating the program
for next year.

282

JUN 29 1938

By dear Mr. Attorney Generals

Responding to your letter of May twenty-first, in which
you suggest that the plan for a uniform handling of identical
bids throughout the Government should be submitted to the heads

of the other Departments for their approval or suggestions, the
documents are returned herewith for clearance by you with the
other Departments as you suggested, inasauch as the plan effects
purchases by the Departments not made by the Treasury and the

Treasury's interest in the matter is not as broad as that of the
Government as a whole.

Very truly yours,

(Signed) H. Morgenthau, Jr.

Secretary of the Treasury.

The Honorable

The Attorney General.

Inclosures.
JJO'C/Lsw
6-25-38

283
June 29, 1938.
12:37 P.M.
12:38 P.M.

H.M.Jr:

Hello.

Operator:

Mr. Montgomery's line is busy. Can you talk to
Mr Oliphant while you're waiting?
*

H.M.Jr:

Hello.

Operator:

Mr. Montgomery. Go ahead.
Hello.

H.M.Jr:
Robert
Montgomery:

Hello.

H.M.Jr:

Mr Montgomery.

M:

Hello, Mr. Morgenthau.

H.M.Jr:

My secretary made me talk to you because she's
one of your fans.

M:

(Laughs) Well, this

H.M.Jr:

Such is fame.

has little to do - my call has very little to

M:

do with the motion picture business.

H.M.Jr:

Good.

M:

I'm glad that it worked because of that. I am the I am the presiding officer out here, Mr. Morgenthau,

of an organization known as the Screen Actors Guild.

H.M.Jr:

Yes.

M:

Which is a large organization comprising around
12,000 members, all of the acting profession out

here. This thing that I have to - wanted to talk
to you about, incidentally, has nothing to do with
taxes; you can put your mind at rest about that.

H.M.Jr:

All right.

M:

Ah - we have ....

284
-2H.M.Jr:

Lots of times
... some information which we think will be of
interest to you and to your Department.

M:

H.M.Jr:

Yes.

Particularly to you personally.

M:

H.M.Jr:

Yes.

It's the type of information which - I don't want
to appear too mysterioso" about it, but - I don't
think I ought to talk to you about over the phone.

M:

H.M.Jr:

Yes.

M:

And although I was perfectly willing to come to

Washington, try and make an appointment with you,

I found that I couldn't get away. They'11 call
me for a picture in about three days now and I

can't fly.

H.M.Jr:

Yes.

However, I can send down to Washington Mr. Lawrence

M:

Beilenson, who is the attorney for this organization.

H.M.Jr:

Lawrence ...

M:

Beilenson - B-e-1-1-e-n-s-o-n.

H.M.Jr:

What's the first letter? I don't get it.

M:

Lawrence - oh, Beilenson - B as in Boston.

H.M.Jr:
M:

Beilenson. I see.
Mr. Beilenson is the - is - is my attorney and
attorney for this organization and he has all
the facts and - that I wanted to give to you and
could present them to you if I could make an
appointment with you to see him.

H.M.Jr:

Surely.

M:

At your convenience.

H.M.Jr:

Surely. Will he come by train or air?

285

-3-

M:

He will come by air.

H.M.Jr:

Well, why not get him here, say, Friday morning?

M:

Get him there Friday morning.

H.M.Jr:

Yes. 11 o'clock.

M:

H.M.Jr:
M:

H.M.Jr:

At 11 o'clock at your office.
Yes. I know that the Los Angeles plane will
be in by that time.
I see. Thank you very much, sir, and I will -

I will get in touch with MT. Beilenson and have
him leave so that he will be in Washington at
your office Friday morning.
Now just a second - this is Treasury business, I

take it.

M:

This is Treasury business.

H.M.Jr:

All right. I'll be glad to see him.

M:

H.M.Jr:
M:

Thank you very much. I do appreciate your end
taking my call.

That's quite all right.
All right.

286
6/29/38

A copy of the attached letter

from Mr. Sproul was sent to the President at Hyde Park today.

287

FEDERAL RESERVE BANK
OF NEW YORK
June 24, 1938.

Dear Mr. Secretary:

The largest long-term security flotation during the past week
was the public offering of $60,000,000 Metropolitan Water District of
Southern California bonds, which dealers acquired from the Reconstruction
Finance Corporation. The bonds are 48, due 1946-86, were acquired from
the Reconstruction Finance Corporation at 107, and were reoffered to

yield 2.65 to 3.65 per cent. According to the incomplete reports available, the issue was well received. Other municipal bond awards during
the week totaled about $6,000,000, and corporate issues about $12,700,000,
of which $10,400,000 was Consolidated Gas, Electric Light and Power

Company of Baltimore 3 1/4s of 1968, placed privately, for refunding.
The two offerings to stockholders--$7,800,000 of Philip Morris
and Company convertible preferred stock and $40,000,000 Commonwealth

Edison Company convertible debentures--which have been subject to sub-

scription rights during the last two or three weeks were terminated this
week, both quoted at substantial premiums and doubtless almost entirely
taken up by stockholders. The success of these issues, combined with the

recent strong advances in the stock and bond markets, will go a long way

toward eradicating the remaining ill effects of the last offerings of this
kind, the unsuccessful Pure 011 and Bethlehem Steel issues last fall.
In the field of short-term financing, the Federal Home Loan
Banks this week sold $41,500,000 of one-year debentures at a price to yield
0.435 per cent, an issue which was immediately oversubscribed.

FEDERAL RESERVE BANK OF NEW YORK 2

Hon. Henry Morgenthau, Jr., 6/24/38.

Additions have been made to the list of prospective corporate
issues in July, so that the expected total is now about $225,000,000,

of which slightly over half will be new capital. The final amount may
readily surpass the June total of $245,000,000.
Yours

faithfuln
Allan Sproul,
First Vice President.

Honorable Henry Morgenthau, Jr.,
Secretary of the Treasury,
Washington, D. C.

288

289

June 27, 1938.

Dear Mr. Sprouls

I know that the Secretary will be
very glad to have your letter of June 24th

telling him of the offerings of last week.
I am acknowledging this letter in his
absence from the office, and will bring

it to his attention as soon as he returns.
Sincerely yours,

H. 8. Niets,
Private Secretary.

Mr. Allen Spreal,
First Vice-President, Federal Reserve
Bank of New York,
New York, New York.

oxf/dbs

290

June 29, 1938.

Dear Mr. Giannini:

a
a
you have of

On behalf of the Secretary, I want
to acknowledge your letter of June 22nd,
which enclosed distributed copy to of the form Managers letter

the branches of the Beak of America is
connection with RFO leams for capital
purposes.

We were most interested to see this
material.

Sincerely yours,

E. 8. Klots,
Private Secretary.

Mr. . . . P. Giennial,
Chairman of the Board of Directors,
Bank of America,

San Transises, California.

GEF/US

291

CABLE ADDRESS BAMERICAL

13044

Bank of America

for ack H.SIC .

NATIONAL TAVINOM ASSOCIATION
SAN FRANCISCO HEADQUARTERS

SAN FRANCISCO. CALIFORNIA

A. P. GIANNINI
DIRECTORS

June 22, 1938

Honorable Henry Morgenthau, Jr.

Secretary of the Treasury
Washington, D. C.
My dear Mr. Morgenthau:

all

I thought you would be interested in the

enclosed copy of a letter we have addressed to the

Managers of our 493 branches, which I am sending as

further evidence of our cooperation with the Government's recovery program.

Sincerely yours,

292

Bank of America
NATIONAL INVOLA ASSOGIATION

President to Managers

Policy Letter No. 4

SAN FRANCISCO

June 21, 1938
M.GIANNINI
PRESIDENT

SUBJECT: RFC LOANS FOR CAPITAL PURPOSES

Dear Co-workers:

You are undoubtedly familiar with the recently enacted Glass
Act, authorizing the RFC to make loans to business enterprises where

such capital or credit is "not otherwise available." You have also

received our Circular "C-99" of June 7, stating that we have agreed
to cooperate with the RFC in accepting applications for this type of
loan.

It is not surprising, perhaps, that because it has not always
been made clear that the real need of "small business" is for capital
rather than ordinary credit, statements have been made that banks are

failing to aid business as they should. If not offset by the facts,

such statements might easily provide the basis for a move to establish
government credit banks for business and industry.

It is definitely our policy to work along with these small business men and make capital loans if the moral risk is good and if they

will work out in a reasonable time. Therefore, the possibility of

making & bankable loan out of an apparently unbankable application
should be thoroughly explored. But when the application appears to

be of the type you cannot handle, regardless of disposition to participate, it is to be forwarded to our Loan Supervision Department at
Headquarters in accordance with the procedure outlined in Circular
"C-99".

Here, the application will be reviewed and if no way can be
found to develop it into a bank loan it will be forwarded to the RFC,
where the responsibility of final acceptance or rejection will rest.
Meanwhile our Loan Supervision Department will compile a complete de-

tailed record of all such applications. Each will be followed through
and final disposition noted. Such a record will not only build useful
statistical information for our bank, but will also give us facts with
which to refute any future question as to whether this bank has extended itself to meet the legitimate needs of business.

Let us remember that it is our definite policy to have our
bank grant a sound constructive and comprehensive credit service in

each of the communities in which we are represented. It, of course,

293
President to Managers

Policy Letter No. 4

-2-

June 21, 1938

is your duty to carry out this policy in your particular community
and if you feel you have any handicap in doing so, please feel free
to communicate your problems direct to me. I confidently anticipate
your full cooperation.
Best personal wishes.

Cordially yours,

Winning
L. M. Giannini,
President.

Enul

294

June 29. 1986.

Dear Mr. Roberts:

On behalf of the Secretary I am acknowledging your note of June 28th, which
encloses an inter-office memorandum on

business conditions covering the proceding
week. The Secretary appreciates your send-

ing him this interesting summary.
Sincerely yours,

H. S. Klots,
Private Secretary.

Mr. George 3. Roberts,

Vice-President, The National City Bank
of New York,
New York, New York.

GEF/dbs

295

The National
City Bank
of New York
ESTABLISHED 1012

New York June

28, 1938

IN REPLYING PLEASE QUOTE INITIALS

CITIBANK

The Honorable Henry Morgenthau, Jr.,

Secretary of the Treasury,
Washington, D. C.

My dear Secretary Morgenthau:

I take pleasure in sending you herewith
our weekly memorandum on business conditions and the oom-

modity markets prepared for inter-office use.
Respectfully,

Geo. B. Roberts
Vice-President

296

Memorandum on Business Conditions for Week ended June 25, 1988

The sensational improvement in the stock market last week was
accompanied by another marked advance in staple commedity prices and by an

increase in buying of industrial raw materials to the largest volume in many
cases since the beginning of the depression. Moody's commodity price intex
is up nearly 5 points more, making a total advance of almost 9 per cent since
the low point reached around the 1st of the month. Zine and lead were marked
up on expanded business; export copper and copper scrap were raised; steel
scrap has rises 81.75 from the low and in the metal markets generally the closing days of last week were the busiest since last August. More business was
done in hides, weel and rubber; the most sensational improvement of all was in

cotton goods. Print eleth sales of the week are estimated at 5 to 6 weeks'
production at the current rate; and business broadened in other constructions,
and also in payer fabrics to a lesser extent.
Accompanying the marked improvement of the past couple of weeks,

there are indications that the business indexes are taking a slight turn for
the better. The Federal Reserve index of industrial production in May, preliminary figure, was 76. At the beginning of June operations were at a rate
which indicated hardly better than 72 for the full month. It now seems apparent, however, that the June index will be at least 74. The upward revision is
due principally to the fast that steel mill operations, instead of going through
the month at 25 or 26 per cent of capacity, recovered to 28 per sent last week,
making three successive weeks of gain, and both Pittsburgh and Chicago will be

up further this week, indicating another slight advance. of course there is not

much comfort in a 28 per sent steel rate, but the modest improvement reflects asemmilating missellaneous needs for steel following reduction of inventories, and
the price out is bullish se far as the prospective volume of orders is concerned.
A second element in improvement is that the trend toward getten mill
surtailment has been checked by the huge buying and the improvement in the mill
Inventory position which was bad. A few eases of increased mill operation have

already been noted. If steel will and cotton will operations hold up during

July the Federal Reserve index will advance because the seasonal expectation

is for a drop in both these big industries. Unquestionably the improvement in
cottons strengthen the opinion that expansion in consumer goods industries for
Fall is indicated, and this should be true whether the present buying spurt and
price rise peters out or not, or whether capital goods business improves.
The automobile news is not showing any marked change. Sales are

about seasonal in relation to May, a little better in some eases, and productio .
at present is not changing much. The shortdown for changeover will begin in

about two weeks and the General Meters shortdown period will be three weeks longer
than last year which was the shortest on record. General Meters schedules call

for only 215,000 vehicles in the four months July to Ostober.

Building figures for the first half of June show a contra-seasonal
increase of 11 per cent over May in total; residential building was off 4 per
cent, which is less than seasonal. As compared with a year age residential off
17 per cent, total off 19. Car leadings had a slight gain due to seal but more
chandise and missellaneous leadings deelined. Electric power production was
about unchanged.

.1.

297

Retail sales of a goods picked up on the ware weather
for the week ented June 18 department store sales over the country were
off 10 per cent, the best showing since Master. In New York the dealine
was 8 per cent. For the four weeks ented June 18 department stores off
25 per conts Beaus,

Government is widening its complity purchases also making

public works grants on old projects, expected to start within 8 days,

to total cost of around May farm per cent water
last year, five months off 18. May factory off 94 per cont,

largest dealine yet. My exports less than year age for first times
favorable balance was hage legals, $100 millions for month, - millions
for five months. MM-centiment gaseline where up another in, making
third.sitvance) Years will . back to seven-day production of eyate July
1.

June ST, 1988

Alan H. Temple,

Statisticism

298

SPOT COMMODITY PRICES

June 25

Week Ago

Month Ago

Year Ago

Since Jan. 1, 1926
Low

High

ommodity

lotton
filk

ubber
in

teel Scrap
inc
OCOR

Steers

ard

Cottonseed Oil
Down

Sheat
Corn

Sugar, Raw
Unchanged

ool

42.90
$12.50

4.50g
4.50g
5.20g
8.92c
9.15c
9.05d

$0.78
$0.57

1.76
$0.64

8.50

Coffee

6.30g

Moody's Index

4.00
4.60g

8.77
9.11d
8.80g
6.50g

7.00

Hides

Copper

8.51g
$1.62
12.25g
40.75g
$11.00
4.00g

8.85g
$1.70
13.87g

1/8
3/8

$0.81
$0.57g

1.80

$0.64

8.50

7.92₫
$1.60

11.29
35.80
$11.00

4.00
4.00
4.45g
8.55g
9.02d

8.45
6.87g

$0.74 7/8

$0.54
1.75
00.66

8.75g
6.35c

12.76
$1.87
19.67g

57.25

$18.25

$6.91
88.50g
72.50g
$23.75

6.00

9.50

6.75g
7.55g
11.72g

8.76g
17.75g

12.79

18.22₫
19.23d

12.30g

8.00
$1.30
01.22
2.55g

$1.02
15.25g

9.00

9.00

9.00g

11.63
14.00

140.8

136.2

132.0

204.3

6.30g

23.90

5.00g
81.05

2.56
18.35g
08.25
2.65g

2.30
3.55g
1.62c
2.97g
4.10g
2.56d

15.00
10.88
$2.15

$0.45

$1.38

$0.21

3.50g

0.57

$1.28
26.50g
24.57c
23.87c

$0.365
3.75g

6.00

4.87g

Rubber - During the past 3 months the price of July rubber futures has risen
from 10.43 to 13.96p, and the spot market from 10 5/8c to 13 7/86. Most of this gain
has occurred since the 3rd quarter quotas were set at 45% about a month ago. Chief
factor back of the rise has been the reappearance of good factory buying. Buyers
realize that as long as quotas are kept at 45% world stocks (now at the approximate
peak) will decline steadily 6 ven if the present low levels of consumption in this country
continues, which is the worst that need be expected.
One of the standard evidences of factory buying is the narrowing of price
differentials between different grades of rubber. In the past 3 months the spread between the best and poorer grades has been cut in half.
A factor which has perhaps helped the rise is the continued deficiency in
rubber shipmonts below permissable quotas. At the end of the 1st quarter, total deficiency was 17,114 tons. Instead of being made up in the 2nd quarter, it now looks while as

though deficiencies would increase. In April they increased slightly to 17,468, Host
preliminary figures for May indicate another rise possibly to about 25,000 tons.
of this undershipment of rubber is attributable to the Dutch East Indies.
The supply of rubber for the 2nd half will be augmented by making up these
deficiencies, but if quotas are kept at 45% for the 4th quarter, the 2nd half estimates supply may of

be estimated at roughly 375,000 tons which is 75,000 tons below reasonable rise much
2nd half world consumption, of 450,000 tons. Hence world stocks, which may not should be
over 650,000 by the end of June, due to bolow-quota shipments in the 1st half, end of 1937.

reduced close to 575,000 by the end of the year, compared with 614,000 at the to
tire statistics wore favorable. Tire stocks declined from 10,316,774 months'

9,855,360 May and now 21.7% below a year ago. This is slightly less than a 3 in Aprilabsupply and close are to normal. Shipments increased to 3,372,118 from 3,199.363 tire stocks

while production rose slightly to 2,841,549 from 2,705,606. With excess If the Committee

sorbed, a moderately better trond in crude rubbor consumption is likely. is to be

holds to the 45% rate continuation of the price advance, over the long pull,
expected.

299
Copper - Domestic sales reached 7,268 tons on Thursday, largest daily volume
last August. This brought June sales through the 23rd to 24,947 tons (highest
ince
last August) compared with 13,731 in May, in the same number of business days.
inco

Justan smolters on Friday raised their scrap buying price to (low was 76

ago) and export copper rose to 9.30-9.400 compared with a low of 8.206 a month
The domestic price remained unchanged at 9.000. The London market continued strong
last ago. week and copper rose to 137g Friday compared with a low of 6328 a month ago. This
corning London was 637 3/4 and the export price 9.36-9.466.
weeks

The spurt in domestic copper sales is attributed more to the replenishing of
stonks by certain fabricators than to any booking of larger orders for their finished
products. The trade feels that there is plenty of copper available at 96. Refined

stocks on May 31 were 369,809 tons. Actual domestic consumption of copper is estimated
to be averaging slightly below 40,000 tons per month.

Lead - Sales have increased sharply. During the first 3 weeks of June, donestio lead sales were 25,345 tons or about at the May rate of mine production which was
$1,918 tons. For the same period in May, sales wore 6,938. With all consumers buying,

(even the battery manufacturers, whose purchases herotofore have been on a most restriot=

ed basis) prices were raised 3 times last week, a total of $10 per ton, bringing the

New York price to 4.50p from 4.00e a week ago. Good buying was reported at the
higher levels.

Some of the larger mines have now built up refined stocks to about their limit.

Unless good buying continues, further ourtailment is expected this summer. Lead concen-

trate shipments to refiners are falling sharply, last week's shipments being the smallest in 3 years. This points to lower lead production.
May lead statistics showed a drop in production to 32,979 tons from 39,291 in
April (the peak was 49,581 last December), shipments rose slightly to 26,011 tons from
the low April level of 25,952 while stocks rose 7,008 tons to 163,723 tons from
156,715 at the end of April. A year ago lead stooks were 115,842 tons.
Zinc - Sales of prime westorn zinc for the week ended June 22 were over 8,000

tons bringing the total for the first 3 weeks of June to over 15,354 tons compared with
7,571 for the full month of May. Further heavy sales were reported later in the week.
With sellers unwilling to dispose of large quantities at the unprofitable 40
level, prices were raised 3 times during the week, a total of $10 per ton, bringing the
price at East St.Louis to 4.506, a rise of 1/2 for the week.
Tin - The International Tin Committee announced last week that market shipnents would be restricted during the 3rd quarter to 35% of basic quotas while 10% of
output would go in the Buffer Pool. (Total production is kept unchanged at the 45% rate
announced 3 weeks ago). Shipments to market during the quarter will be around 27,000
tons, provided non-quota countries ship 7,500 tons. This means a. 9,000 ton monthly supply. in-

Consumption for the first 4 months averaged 13,000. About 1,650 tons monthly will go
to the Pool. This forecasts a. sharp drop in world stocks and the price has risen sharply
to 430 from a low of 356 reached early in May. With quota shipments during the present
quarter at the comparatively high rate of 55% world stooks dropped 2,594 tons in May.
At 26,308 tons they were only a 2 months' supply based on latest consumption figures. reTin consumption outlook in this country is clouded by prospects of some last

duction in the fruit and vegetable pack this year, due to large carryover from
year's heavy pack. Tin plate industry is currently operating at 35-40% of capacity
compared with 50-55% a month ago.

Sism has announced that she will not join the Buffer Pool. If she should tons
withdraw from the agreement entirely her market shipments might rise to 1,300 35%
monthly (1937 production rate) as against 545 tons monthly allowed her at the
rate.

June 27, 1938

Alan H. Temple,

Statistician

300

June 29, 1938.

My dear Mr. President:

Pursuant to your request, transmitted orally
through Mr. Foreter. I suggest Admiral Peoples as
the representative of the Treasury Department to
be a member on the Committee on Purchases of Blindmade products.

IS is my opinion. that Miss Helen Keller would
be an 1deal selection for chairman of that Committee.

Faithfully yours,
(Signed) H. Morgenthau, Jr.

The President,
The White House.

Sent special
to m Forster

gone b/30.

mn

301

June 29, 1938

My dear Mr. President:
I am sending you herewith a

weekly review of the business situation, prepared by George Haas.

I wish to draw your particular attention to page 6, the paragraph

headed "Heavy inventory accumulation
in 1937" and the accompanying chart
No. 4.

Respectfully yours,

The President,
Hyde Park, New York.

302

June 29, 1938

My dear Mr. President:
I am sending you herewith a

weekly review of the business situation, prepared by George Hass.

I wish to draw your particular attention to page 6. the paragraph

headed "Heavy inventory accumulation
in 1937° and the accompanying ohart
No. 4.

Respectfully yours,

The President,
Hyde Park, New York.

303

June 29, 1938

My dear Mr. President:
I am sending you herewith a

weekly review of the business situation, prepared by George Haas.

I wish to draw your particular attention to page 6, the paragraph

headed "Heavy inventory accumulation
in 1937" and the accompanying ohart
No. 4.

Respectfully yours,

The President,
Hyde Park, New York.

304
CONFIDENTIAL

TREASURY DEPARTMENT
INTER OFFICE COMMUNICATION
DATE

June 27, 1938

Secretary Morgenthau

TO

FROM

Mr. Haas

Subject: The Business Situation, week ending June 25, 1938
Conclusions
(1)

The spectacular rise in stock prices this week confirms
various evidences of improving business, and advertises to
the country in a dramatic manner that the tide of business
has turned.

Together with the upturn in commodity prices which began
several weeks ago, the stock market rise is also becoming an

active factor in increasing business activity.
(a) It has forced business sentiment into
widespread optimism almost overnight.

(b) It has stimulated industrial buying in

numerous lines.

(c) Rising price levels are tending to increase

agricultural purchasing power, to increase corporate

earnings, and to eliminate the inventory situation
as a depressing factor.

(2)

Additional evidences of underlying business improvement
have appeared this week:
(a) Further adjustments have been made in the

price structure, through increased prices of raw
materials and reduced prices of steel products,
automobile parts, and certain farm machinery.
(b) Department store sales, adjusted, have

increased to the highest level since mid-April.

305
Secretary Morgenthau - 2
(c) The Ford Motor Company has increased

output this week to the highest rate since April.
(d) Steel scrap prices have risen sharply.
(e) A sensational upturn in cotton textile

sales apparently foreshadows a further increase in

mill activity.

(3)

Two major factors account for the beginning of a turn
in business at this time:
(a) Inventories, which throughout the recession have been an indeterminate bearish factor,
have apparently been liquidated to a point where
production can again advance. (See discussion,
pp. 5-6.)
(b) The recovery program is beginning to take
effect. The increase in excess bank reserves has
stimulated bond and stock prices, and some preliminary effects of the spending program are already being felt.

The stock market upturn

The nearly vertical rise in stock prices this week on

heavy trading volume, coming with dramatic suddenness after
a week in which the volume had dried up to a twenty-year low,

reflects a previous over-discounting of bearish factors in
the current situation. One illustration of this appeared in
the unjustified belief a few weeks ago that the automobile
companies would close down completely during the summer, and
that steel operations might be reduced to 15 percent. As a

consequence, a heavy volume of investment buying and short
covering, which had been postponed awaiting the expected summer slump, came into the market as soon as business showed

signs of turning up instead of down.

Business sentiment has been decidedly changed by the

rise in stock prices, particularly since it confirms the

upturn in commodity prices which began early in June. Reports from various sections of the country mention an

308

Secretary Morgenthau - 3

improved psychology among buyers since the stock market upturn. This has been particularly true among buyers of raw
materials.

(1) In the copper market, the American Metal
Market says that "There is no denying that the
recent change in sentiment toward practically all
commodities and markets is proving to be a power-

ful propelling force in copper."

(2) In the lead market the demand was said to

be "too strong to be coped with freely".
(3) In zinc, the "complete transition of the

market from a state of dormancy to one of outstanding activity and strength is even more remarkable
than in lead".
(4) Steel scrap prices have been marked up
three times this week under increased demand.

(5) A sensational expansion in cotton textile
buying has occurred, extending to all types of
goods and from all classes of buyers, including
buyers of cotton goods for industrial purposes.
An important reason for the widespread change in senti-

ment is that market writers, forced to explain the rising
price trend, have brought out and advertised to the country
at large the numerous favorable factors in the business situation, and subordinated the unfavorable ones which they had
previously been emphasizing.

In addition to serving as a measure of improving business, the upturns in stock and commodity prices are taking
an active part in bringing about such improvement by (1) stimulating industrial buying; (2) increasing purchasing power,

particularly in agriculture; (3) increasing corporate earnings
through working toward higher production rates and increased
valuations of inventories; (4) reducing the pressure to liquidate inventories, and thereby tending to remove this factor as
a bearish influence.

Further evidence of business improvement
Additional favorable business developments have appeared
this week:

307

Secretary Morgenthau - 4

(1) Further substantial progress has been

made in correcting price disparities through the
upturn in raw material prices, which has been combined with reductions in prices of various finished
or semi-finished products:

(a) A general reduction in steel prices ranging
from 6 to 10 percent at Pittsburgh has been
announced by the U. S. Steel Corporation.

Greater reductions were made at Chicago and
Birmingham, thereby modifying basing point

differentials.

(b) The Caterpillar Tractor Company has announced a reduction in prices on certain

lines up to 23 percent, which will be followed by other companies.

(c) Automobile parts companies are reported to
have cut prices up to 20 percent on some
items.

(2) Department store sales have increased for
three successive weeks. For the week ending
June 18, the seasonally adjusted sales index rose

to 83, or 10 percent below last year. This represents the highest actual level and the smallest
decrease below last year since mid-April.

(3) The Ford Motor Company this week increased

production to the highest level since April. Although other leading companies reduced production

somewhat, the total output has held very steady for
three weeks, reflecting well-maintained sales levels.
(4) The Buick Company, whose retail sales dur-

ing the first 10 days of June were higher than in
the similar period of May, has begun to buy steel
for 1939 models.

(5) An increase in steel operations for the
third successive week has been due not only to increased orders, but also to the fact that stocks of
finished steel in the hands of steel companies have
been greatly depleted.

308

Secretary Morgenthau - 5
New orders

Steel orders for last week, preceding the stock market
rise, declined to an equivalent of 29 percent of capacity,
as compared with the previous figure of 37 percent. (See
Chart 1.) Steel orders are strongly influenced by the stock

market trend, as the chart indicates. The orders figure to
be received next week will reflect only in part this week's
stock market upturn.

It is uncertain, as yet, whether the moderate cut in
steel prices will lead to increased buying, but the fact that
prices for steel scrap and other commodities are rising may
well lead steel buyers to increase their purchases on the
belief that no further reductions are in prospect.
New orders for products other than steel during the
third week of June, not under the influence of the stock market rise, were also somewhat lower, our index declining to
41.3 as compared with the previous week's figure of 45.5.
Textile sales since then have increased markedly, and, to-

gether with the stimulation to other orders that has doubtless been provided by the stock market upturn, should bring
an increase in the next weekly index figure. Any marked
improvement in orders would likely be reflected very quickly
in increased industrial activity. When unfilled orders are
low, as at present, there is very little lag between new
orders and production.
Inventories substantially reduced

Trade reports and various statistics indicate that a
substantial reduction in inventories has been an important
factor back of the recent tendency toward business improvement. The actual size of corporation inventories remains
indeterminate, but estimates we have made show that inventories have apparently been reduced sufficiently to allow
business again to advance.

In Chart 2 we show (1) industrial production in dollar in

compared with an estimated trend of consumption invendollar volume, volume, (2) the indicated monthly additions to of

tories or reduction in inventories, and (3) an estimate of
the cumulated change in inventories since the beginning

1935.

will be noted that production consistently exceeded
It from early in 1936 until October 1937, It resulting not

consumption in successive monthly additions to inventories. was below

until November of last year that production dropped

309

Secretary Morgenthau - 6

consumption, and liquidation of the accumulated inventories
began. The rate of liquidation declined somewhat in May,

possibly indicating resistance to further inventory reduction.

Our estimate of accumulated inventories shown by the

lower curve on the chart indicates that by the end of May
1938 the total had been reduced to about that at the beginning of 1937. Inventories at that time were below normal in
terms of prevailing business levels, as were the inventories
during 1935. While changes in the distribution of inventories
may affect the comparisons, the present inventories should not
prove burdensome, particularly since rising prices convert

inventories into assets rather than liabilities.

Heavy inventory accumulation in 1937

The extent to which inventories were accumulated during

the summer and fall of 1937 is shown in Chart 3. In this
chart our estimate of total corporate inventories is compared

with the FRB production index and with our composite index of
new orders. Production continued at a high rate for some

months after new orders had sharply declined, partly to build

un stocks in anticipation of labor troubles, and partly be-

cause of a widespread belief that new orders would improve
after Labor Day.
The increase in commercial loans during 1937 was largely

for the purpose of carrying inventories. (See Chart 4.) The

persistent increase in commercial loans in the summer of 1937
was generally regarded at that time as foreshadowing indus-

trial expansion and therefore bullish. Actually it was a
bearish factor. Similarly, the reduction in commercial loans
recently has been held as an indication of business contrac-

tion, while actually it reflects a liquidation of inventories.
Recovery program becoming effective

A second major factor in the improving business trend 18
the increasing influence of the recovery program, in both its
monetary and its deficit-spending aspects. The increase in
excess reserves, first affecting Government bond prices and
strengthening the market for new corporate issues, has increased the demand for high-grade stocks, and doubtless
helped to bring about a rise in the stock market somewhat
earlier than it might otherwise have occurred. A comparison
of the timing of the upturns in excess reserves, bond prices,
stock prices and commodity prices is shown in Chart 5.

Chart 1

STEEL ORDERS COMPARED WITH STOCK MARKET TREND

310

Confidential

72

196
70

192
68

16

hit

66

64

180
62

176

60

30 INDUSTRIALS, Dow-JONES
172

58

168

56

164

54

52

160

156

152

148

44

144

42

140

WEEKLY ORDERS, U.S. STEEL CORPORATIO
(IN TERMS OF PERCENT OF CAPACITY)

136

40

132

128

124

120
30

LA

CHH

116

26

112
26

108
24

104
22

100
20

18

A

92

AUGUST

SEPTEMBER

1937
C - 203

Office of the Secretary of the Treasury

Chart 2

312
COMPARISON OF PRODUCTION AND CONSUMPTION,

AND CHANGE IN TOTAL CORPORATION INVENTORIES 1935 TO DATE
In Dollar Volume

1935

1936

1937

1938
DOLLARS

BILLIONS

DOLLARS

BILLIONS
5.2
5.2

PRODUCTION
4.8
4.8

4.4
4.4

ESTIMATED
CONSUMPTION
4.0
4.0

3.6
3.6

3.2
3.2

2.8
2.8

.4

NET ADDITIONS TO INVENTORIES

.4

0
0

NET REDUCTIONS IN INVENTORIES
.4

.4

7
7
6
6

TOTAL CHANGE IN INVENTORIES

SINCE JANUARY 1. 1935

5

5
4

4
3
3
2
2

I
0
0

935

J

- of I - -

Office of the Secretary of the Treasury

1936

1937

1938

1-88

NE W ORDERS, INDUSTRIAL PRODUCTION AND CORPORATION
1935

1934

1933

1937

1936

1938

PER DOLLARS
CENT BILLIONS
(IND

PER

PROD.)

CENT

135 26

(NEW ORDERS)

160

New Orders
1936 100

24

125

140

115

22

105

20

120

Ind. Prod. F.R.B.
1923 -'25=100

100

95

18

80
EST.

-

60

85

16

Estimated Total Inventories
DOLLARS BILLIONS

75

14

40
I

65

12

20

55

0

1933

1935

1934
*

Office of the Secretary of the Treasury
Dividen of Research -

1936

1937

1938

Not adjusted for seasonal.
I -87

10

ESTIMATED CORPORATION INVENTORIES AND COMMERCIAL LOANS
At End of Month

1937

1936

1935

1938
DOLLARS

DOLLARS

MILLIONS

BILLIONS

6,500

22

DUNN AND BRADSTREET ESTIMATE,
INVENTORIES AT END OF YEAR
6,250

21

6,000

20

5,750

19

COMMERCIAL LOANS
WEEKLY REPORTING MEMBER BANKS

(MILLIONS OF DOLLARS)
5,500

18

TOTAL INVENTORIES, ESTIMATED
(BILLIONS OF DOLLARS)

17

5,250

16

5,000

15

4,750

14

4,500

4,250

13
J

1936

$

1935

M

$

M

N

1937

M

M

1938

CHANGE IN COMPOSITION OF SERIES ON COMMERCIAL LOANS BEGINNING MAY 1937

Office of the Secretary of the Treasury

Division of - and -

3
c 216

EXCESS RESERVES. SECURITY PRICES AND COMMODITY PRICES
Weekly

1937

1938

DOLLARS

DOLLARS

BILLIONS

BILLIONS

2.5

2.5

2.0

2.0

EXCESS RESERVES
1.5

1.5

1.0

1.0

PRICE IN

PER CENT
YIELD

DOLLARS

YIELDS ON LONG TERM
TREASURY BONDS

2.4

110

2.6

108

2.8

106

3.0

104

10 INDUSTRIAL BOND PRICES,
DOW-JONES

PRICE IN
90

DOLLARS

110 SECOND GRADE RAIL BOND PRICES.
DOW-JONES

80

80

70

70

60

60

50

50

PER CENT

STOCK PRICES
40

142

PER CENT
134

COMMODITY PRICES

PRICES OF 90 STOCKS. STAND. STAT.
1926=100

126

85

118

80

110

75

70

102

65

94

60

86

COMMODITY FUTURES. DOM-JONES,

1924 26=100

55

78

so

70

THILL

III

11

45
$

A

,

J

A

M

,

.

D

N

o

$

A
M

1937

o

1938

N

M

D

LLL 111

A

M

,

62

J

5
.

Office of the Secretary of the Treasury

- . - and Standard

Change in composition of Index.
P-166

3

1

4

315

June 29. 1958.

Dear Mr. Butterworth:

I want to acknowledge your letter of June

15th, and thank you for the interesting -

of the British financial position which was
enclosed therewith. I shall read this with close
attention, and shall see that others in the
Treasury have on opportunity to study it also.
As I wrote you recently, we now expect to
sail on the 16th, and we are looking forward to

our vacation abroad.

Sincerely,

(Signed) H. Morgenthau, Jr.

Honorable W. W. Butterworth, 3r.,
Second Secretary,

Numbers of the United States of America,
London, England.

247

316

For Haning White to
study and return to

2

Marfiles Hmg

248

LONDON, June 15, 1938.

Dear Mr. Secretary:

I thought it might be useful to draw up a summary

of the British financial position with a view to
evaluating future trends and I venture to send you a
copy.

Needless to say, I continue to hope that you may

yet find it possible to come over this summer.
With kindest regards,
Sincerely yours,

Walton
The Hon. Henry Morgenthau, Jr.,
The Secretary of the Treasury,
Washington, D.C.

317

243
MEMORARDUM
American Embassy,

317 ?

London,

June 10, 1938.
THE BRITISH FINANCIAL OUTLOOK.

The United Kingdom, in common with other European

countries, is now faced with what might be described as

a race in exhaustion or a financial endurance test. In
spite of Great Britain's wealth and resources a problem
of the first magnitude is rapidly developing.
As its contribution to the armament race now in progress, Great Britain has undertaken a program involving an

expenditure of over £1,500 million in the five years beginning April 1, 1937. Over 400 million of this amount
is to be borrowed, the remainder to be obtained by taxation. Both these announced figures are already out of
date, however, and no limit to the armament program and

the expenditure which it will involve, can be envisaged.
The task of raising the necessary money by borrowing and

by taxation presents difficulties because, on the one
hand the national debt is already very high, and on the

other taxation is admittedly at a level crushing in its
effect.
Up to the present the United Kingdom has been able

to maintain almost complete freedom in the financial and
economic spheres and any measures of drastic control would
be unwelcome. There are, however, disadvantages in economic
and

318

and financial freedom as compared with a totalitarian
system, when a supreme effort is called for, especially
if the trade cycle is on the down swing. Circumstances
may oompel the United Kingdom to face up to the unpallistable question - is the degree of economic and financial

freedom which still prevails a luxury which, in the aircumstances, she cannot afford indefinitely?
The trade recession which began to be evident in the
United Kingdom in the autumn continues. Up to a few weeks
ago there had always been the hope that some stimulus,

political, economic or American, might turn the tide,
but these hopes are now dwindling and the Stock Exchange,
the business man and the Government are evidently be-

ginning to make their calculations on the basis of a continued business decline, with no such quick release from
the impasse. Unemployment is mounting and will increase

the costs of Government, profits are falling and will
curtail tax yields, exports are declining and widening
the trade balance deficit, income from invisible exports
is declining, and wages remain rigid and industrial costs
high. Such advantage as comes from more favorable terms

of trade is more than offset by the difficulties of competing in export markets, while such stimulus as the
armament program gives to industry is too concentrated

in a few trades to counteract the decline in general in-

dustrial activity.
The present economic situation bears certain resem-

blances to that of 1931, when many of the influences
enumerated above were operative, so that the question
naturally arises whether the United Kingdom can again
ploy

-3-

employ successfully measures similar to those used in

319

1931. The answer to this is that in 1931 there were
available a number of "resources" which have now been
used up and cannot be tapped again. They were:

1. High interest rates then prevailed which allowed
the introduction of a cheap money policy. The great conversion of 1932 not only effected a saving of ame £50

million in interest charges, thus materially reducing
the total Government expenditure, but also acted as a
tremendous stimulus to the economic body. The officacy
of the cheap money policy as a stimulant is exhausted
and meanwhile its continuance has become an economic nec-

essity. It revived the patient but has now become as a
drug habit; remove it and the patient's discomfort will
become acute.

2. A building boom was then latent, waiting on
cheap money and created by the combination of a war-made

housing shortage and an aroused social conscience with

regard to decent housing. By means of subsidies the
Government had stimulated house building to a point where
about 200,000 homes per annum were being constructed.

After 1932 the figures increased rapidly to 300,000 and
$50,000 per annum, while subsidies were gradually given
up. From 1919 through 1937, 3,500,000 houses had been

completed. The building boom stimulated many ancillary

industries, structural steel, and other building materials,
furnishings, etc. etc. The boom has now past its peak
and contraction has begun. The housing shortage, though
not

-4-

not entirely overcome, bears no comparison with that which 320
existed in 1932.

3. An over-valued currency was suddenly depreciated

by nearly 30 percent with no shock to the confidence of

British nationals in their currency or in the credit of
their country. The advantages to the export trade were
enormous while the cost of living in terms of sterling
remained almost stationery; the British market was so

great that the depreciation of sterling, instead of raising internal prices, pulled down world prices. Resort to
further currency depreciation would now carry the danger

of dragging other countries into a depreciation race. The
world, not excluding the United States, is now depreciationconscious and the United Kingdom cannot again expose the

United States and others to a squeeze such as was sub-

mitted to between 1931 and early 1933. The United Kingdom had learned the advantages of currency depreciation

without panic from the French experience of 1928 but in
turn she has taught the world this lesson and she is not

free to try this expedient again with success, except in
very gradual and relatively imperceptible doses.

4. A free trade country in a world of protection by
adopting a general tariff could gain immediate short-run
benefits by handing to British producers the home market,
at the same time righting the balance of payments. The
long

*

1.0. The drop from par ($4.86) to $3.50 which was the
average rate in 1932 (as given in the Federal Reserve
Bulletin) or 28%.

long-run disadvantages of a high tariff - and the British 321
Tariff is high - are only just beginning to show themselves and resort to a still higher tariff would carry
grave disadvantages, because either wages would rise and

force up costs to the detriment of the export trade, or
real wages would fall and ourtail effective consumer demand in the home market. Furthermore, tariff increases
breed retaliation and Great Britain depends on overseas

markets for the absorption of a very large proportion of
her production. It was estimated that in 1924 the United
Kingdom exported 27 percent of her production of moveable

goods", (as compared with 30 percent in 1913). Though

under the protection of the Tariff Act of 1932 the proportion has fallen to a point between 15% and 20% in
1937 export markets remain of paramount importance to

a number of the major industries of the country. The
cotton industry, which still furnishes the largest item
in British export trade, cannot enjoy prosperity unless
exports expand. In 1924 about 85 percent of the 5,426

million yards of cotton cloth produced in Great Britain
was exported, the home market taking only about 800 million
yards. The 10 sser percentage exported today, (66%), is in

part a reflection of that industry's aoute depression, because the small increase, from 800 million yards to 1,036
million yards between 1924 and 1935, taken by the home
market by no means makes up for a drop in exports from

4,627

#

A. W. Flux, in a Paper read before the Royal Statistical
Society.

** Rough preliminary estimate of the Board of Trade.

-6-

322

4,627 million yards to 2,013 million yards. About 30
percent of the 267 million tons of coal produced in
1924 was exported and though home consumption has in-

creased from 180 to 185 million tons since that date,

the coal industry feels acutely the fall in exports from
84 to 56 million tons in 1937. The Balfour Committee
estimated that 30 percent of machinery produced in 1984
was exported and about 54 percent of iron and steel production; though the home Market takes more of these pro-

duots at present it is still true that the difference
between prosperity and depression for all these basic

industries lies in the condition of export markets.
5. There was considerable scope for the "economy
axe" in 1931. There is some scope for economy now, es-

pecially in local Government costs, but the greater consciousness of the deflationary effect of contracting publie works programs during a business recession stands in
the way of any material reduction, while armament needs

will heavily outweigh any attempts at economy.
6. A Labor Government had been in power for two years

in 1931 and its replacement tended to create a greater
degree of confidence. A Cabinet more likely to command

confidence in British finance than that now in power is
hardly conceivable.
These "resources" have all been used, admittedly with

great skill, and together they brought a recovery which in
early 1937 exceeded the 1929 levels.

But

32
But more important than the lack of these used re-

sources is the difference in the outlook. In 1931 the
United Kingdom looked forward to peace and in 1938 she

looks forward to probable war and certain exhausting
armament expenditure. Furthermore, in 1931 the position

in the trade cycle was at the bottom with revival on
the horison; today the down-swing of the trade cycle has
begun.

In the absence of the expedients, so skilfully used
to bring the United Kingdom out of the erisis of 1931,
the single task of arresting the present recession or of
bringing the country out of a more serious depression

would be a difficult one in itself. On the other hand,
even if trade were expanding the financing of the rearmament program would place heavy burdens on British

financial resources. But with the peak years of crippling
armament expenditure falling during a trade recession the
acuteness of the present problem for the United Kingdom
is manifest. Armament expenditure is thus imposing a

financial strain unprecedented in peace-time. The strain
may be seen at three points.

1. The burden of taxation in relation to the
national income.

2. The growth of the national debt in relation to
British credit.
3. The liabilities of London as a short-term
borrower in relation to the maintenance of confidence in
sterling in the face of an increasing debit in the balance
of payments.

To

To prediot how soon or on which of these three

324

fronts the strain will reach the danger point would involve assessing a number of imponderables, but an ex-

amination of the present status and the certain and
probable trends may well be attempted.

1. The Burden of Taxation.
Government expenditure, including local government

costs, took over 20 percent of the national income in
1937. What the proportion will be in 1938 it is not
possible to estimate because both items in the equation

are unknown, but the direction of the trend is certain.
National income will be less than in 1937 and expenditure

will certainly be more. It seems relatively safe to
place the proportion of the national income which will
be required for Government purposes at around 25 percent

or more in 1938 and it will be much more if, as appears
likely, no signs of recovery emerge by the autumn of this

year." In the absence of any recovery this year, tax
yields in 1939-40 will fall heavily; unless budgets are
further unbalanced, increased rates of taxation, and/
or new forms of raising revenue, may have to be considered.

But the question arises, what is the psychological
limit of taxation beyond which enterprise may be discouraged to an extent that may reduce tax yields?

It seems safe to hasard an opinion that this limit
has already been reached. It was logical for the Chancellor

.

Table No. 1 in the Appendix gives details of Expenditure
and National Income for a number of years.

-2
325

Chancellor of the Exchequer to raise the income-tax in

his recent budget in order to collect at a high rate on
the particularly good income of the fiscal year ended
March, 1938, and to reserve his borrowing resources to
be used more fully in following years when taxable income

will fall with falling profits. Because the present
rates of taxation may be expected to have an increasingly

deflationary effect on enterprise if trade further declines, additional drastic increases would probably defeat their own ends and are unlikely to be imposed ex-

cept in the event of war. The British standard rate of
income tax is now 5s. 6d. in the £, only 6d. less than
the highest rate, 6s. which prevailed from 1918 to 1922.
When the World War broke out, the rate was 1s. 3d. in the
£. It was immediately doubled in the Second Budget of

1914 to 2s. 6d. So far as the level of taxation is concerned, the United Kingdom, now preparing for the next
war, stands about where she did at the end of the la at war.

2. The National Debt.
The United Kingdom has inherited a national debt of
close on £8,000 million from the World War. Some reductions were made by revenue provision for sinking funds
and by the use of revenue surpluses in many of the post-

war years, but the total has never fallen below £7,400
million, and has been rising again since 1931.*
The

#

Table No. II in the Appendix gives particulars of the

National Debt in 1924, and 1931-38.

326

The abandonment of the gold standard in 1931 and the

depreciation of sterling did not result in the reduction
in the total of the national debt in terms of goods and
services which currency depreciation usually affords, because, instead of the expected marked increase in prices,

there followed a fall in world prices which equalised any

depreciation of sterling and 3 ft the level of sterling
prices practically unchanged. The United Kingdom, there-

fore, starts her preparations for the next war about
where she left off at the end of the last war so far as
the volume of her national debt in terms of goods and
services is concerned.
The gross national debt on March 31, 1938, stood at

£8,026 million. To this should be added another £1,357
million of local Government debt, making a total of
£9,383 million or some £200 per head of population".
Though the budget estimates for 1938-39 require an

addition of only about £65 million in the national debt
during the current year, the augmented armament plans

announced immediately after the acquisition of Austria
by Germany may more than double this figure, and will
increase the amounts which must be borrowed in the years

immediately following by further substantial sums. The

expansion

*

The Economist in its budget supplement to the issue of

April 9, 1938, suggests that it is more "realistic" to
exclude the external debt (£1,032 million on March 31,
1938), since this is offset by assets in the form of loans

to Dominions and former allies, and also to exclude certain
other assets estimated at about £500 million on March 31,
1937, (and £700 million on March 31, 1938), consisting
chiefly of the funds of the Exchange Equalization Account,
Sues Canal shares, etc. Similar deductions might also be
made in the case of the debts of local authorities which

would reduce the per capita net liability of the State to
something like £150.

327

259
-11-

32/

expension of the national debt will be further hastened
if taxable income shrinks rapidly after 1936-59 as a TO-

sult of a sharp fall in trade in the autum and next
year.

Though the taxpayer's burden for interest on the
national debt, now placed at asso million for the current

year, is some L57 million as than before the great conversion of 1938 with of the saving of that conversion
(about 250 million) has been absorbed in the growing ex-

penditure on the social services, any material reduction
of which may be considered as politically impossible.
Moreover, the interest burden on the debt must increase

as the total sise of the debt grows and though this increase in the burden may not be rapid because of the de-

veloped technique in the use of the Treasury Bill together
with the Treasury's influence on the gilt-edged market,
the substantial growth in the national debt, which must
be expected, will necessitate the most careful handling.
The maintenance of confidence in the credit of the Exchequer is all important and becomes an increasingly

delicate problem with every addition to the total of the
debt. It may be asked at what point the national debt
may reach a psychological limit where confidence in

British credit would begin to deteriorate. For reasons
explained on a later page" there would seem still to FOOM
be
.

QO

The raising of £400 million during 1987-48 is already
provided for in the Defense Loans Act of 1937. coverement spoken have stated that substantial further
amounts will be borrowed. 4100 millions have already
been raised on long-term, and the £28 million revenue
surplus has been allocated for this purpose.
Table No. II contains details of National Debt changes

and shows the amounts "saved" by the cossation of paymants on the United States Government Loan, as well as by

the reductions in interest on the internal debt.

328

room for considerable expansion of the total debt, the
interest burden on which could be kept relatively small.

3. London's Liabilities as a Short-Term Borrower.
Although the United Kingdom is a large creditor
nation with estimated overseas long-term investments in
1936 (Kindersley) of about 23,364 million (as compared
with Paish's estimate of 1911 of £3,715 million) she has
changed her position as international banker from one of
lender to one of borrower. The amounts loaned in the

financing of foreign trade have contracted, increasingly
so since the spread of exchange and barter agreements,

while in the field of deposit banking she has developed

a large and growing liability. Her position as a shortterm borrower arises from the fact (a) that London is

the center of the sterling area, and (b) that London and
sterling command confidence. The short-term position,

however, increases, apart from the fluotuations of "hot
money" holdings and the London balances of sterling-area

countries, because of the persistent passive balance of
payments.

What may be called the short-term position of London

is impossible to measure. Refugee funds and the sterling
balances of sterling-area countries exist in various forms,

including Treasury Bills, call and short notice loan
money in the discount market, investments in gilt-edged

securities and deposits in banks, while in the case of
refugee funds there are also gold hoards and large amounts

invested in gold mining stocks and other industrial securities, and in foreign and colonial Government loans
issued

issued in London. Though some of these funds are techni-

329

oally long-term investments they are all similar in that
they are readily convertable into sterling and immediately
withdrawable across the exchanges.

The sterling balances of sterling-area countries may
be roughly estimated at about £400 million or upwards

but there is no figure available for the total of refugee
funds which make up a large and widely fluctuating propor-

tion of the total short-term position.
Though we cannot estimate London's liabilities on
short-term, we can conclude that there has been a secular
increase in theory funds since 1932 because the balance of

payments has shown a constant deficit over this period
which could only have been equalized by capital movements

either long or short-term. If table No. 3 in the Appendix is studied, in which are shown figures for the balance
of payments together with Sir Robert Kindersley's estimates

of long-term capital movements, it will be seen that
roughly some £876 million unaccounted for capital must have
found its way into the United Kingdom between 1932 and

1937 inclusive. Meanwhile, gold imports during that

period totalled some £721 million. The total gold in
the Bank of England at 140s. per ounce was £537 million
on the 30th September, 1937, and that in the Exchange

Equalization Account was £279 million. In addition there
were gold hoards in London standing at something like £130

to £200 million.
#

**

#-

with

Bank for International Settlements Eighth Annual Report,p.63.
This is a very rough approximation based on the figures
mentioned in the Bank
for International Settlements Eighth
45 and
these

Annual 1937, in Report, all PP. figures 47. render Changes the estimates since September out of

date but no later figures are available. The gold hoard
figures are very rough approximations in any case.

330

with the balance of payments certain to show a

deficit in the current year and probably in future years
so long as the armanent race continues, the question is
beginning to be asked, - "will the reserves and technique
of the Exchange Equalisation Account prove adequate to

maintain confidence in sterling?" Some misgivings have
recently become evident, especially since the speech of
the President of the Board of Trade in the House of Commons on May 24, but because of the skilful handling of
the exchange situation up to the present it seems safe

to expect that the authorities will be able to maintain
confidence in sterling even if the trade recession develops into a major depression. But with the export
trades showing no recovery, while the minimum food and
raw material requirements and the needed armament mater-

ials keep imports at a high level, the strain will increase and the management of the exchange position will

become increasingly difficult.
To sum up, the financial situation of the United
Kingdom presents an acute problem because the country

is confronted with the peak years of crippling armament

expenditure at a time when the decline of trade is (a)
hastening the arrival of the psychological limit of
taxation, (b) thus forcing an expansion in the already
high national debt to a 30 vel that may threaten the aredit of the Treasury and (o) widening the deficit in her
balance of payments to a point that may bring a break in

the stability of sterling.
What are the factors which are available to help the
United Kingdom to keep these three wolves from the door?
1.

263
-18-

1. Probably the greatest asset is the national
character. British nationals will bear a greater burden

331

of taxation than could be imposed in any other Democratic

country. They have a natural faith in British credit and
in sterling. They also have a most valuable capacity of
giving a united response to a call for supreme effort
when they feel that the interests of their country demand
it and their 30 adership is responsible and skilful.
Two other assets lie in the development which has
taken place since 1931 in the Treasury's management of

financial and monetary policy. This development gives:
2. The technique and resources of the Exchange
Equalization Account recently tested by the withdrawal
from London of some £70 million of French funds in about
ten days with no appreciable disturbance to the exchange

and money markets. This demonstration of skill and

strength has fortified the already existing confidence

in sterling even in the face of a growing deficit in the
balance of payments and

3. The British Treasury's post-1931 development in
the control of money rates which enables the authorities
to maintain cheap money in the short-loan market which
can absorb large issues of Treasury Bills; this empowers
the Government to finance its needs cheaply and to wait
for the best possible moment to issue such long-term leans

as must be floated. This power, together with the growth
#

of various Government Department funds managed by the

national debt commissioners which gives a strong weapon
by

* Unemployment and Health Insurance funds, Pensions and
Savings Bank funds and the government securities in the Issue
Department of the Bank of England, together constitute nearly

one fifth of the outstanding internal long-term debt.
(Westminster Bank Review, May, 1938).

-26.
332

by which the dilt--dded market can be influenced, renters

possible the task of raising further loans, at relatively
cheap interest rates.
Though, as mentioned above, the total debt in terms

of goods and services was not reduced by a price rise in
1931, the great conversion of 1932 did reduce the interest

burden very drastically and though the long-term interest

rate has risen irrespective of short-term rates, it is
still relatively low. It has been as low as 8 8/4 per
cent and today stands at only 3 3/8 percent. Furthermore,
the Government can use the Treasury Bill for meeting its

needs to a very substantial extent. There is a tradition
that the Treasury Bill issue should not 8 above £1000
million but there is no compelling reason why this limit
should not be exceeded. The Treasury Bill issue now
stands at ESSO million and includes such Treasury Bills
as are held by the Exchange Equalization Account. with

the short loan rate at one half percent and with the
Treasury's powers to maintain the rate down at least to

that vol, the financing of the rearment program need
not bring excessive burdens in the way of increased interest rates,. No doubt some longer term issues will be
floated, but a borrower who can wait for an opportune

time and who holds a fifth of the securities in the market,
can borrow with great advantage.

4. British nationals still own some 23,700 million
of overseas long-term investments". Though any liquidation
of
.

Table No. 4 in the Appendix gives Kindersley's estimates
of nominal capital, repayments and new overseas issues
since 1989.

of these resources tends to curtail the income received

from them, (the most important invisible export item),
these investments constitute a layer of fat on which
the United Kingdom could live for sometime so far as
her balance of payments position is concerned. Though

the bulk of these investments are in sterling securities,
Kindersley estimates that some £400 million consisted
(December 1936) in securities readily marketable on
overseas stock exchanges . Such investments constitute

an offset against overseas ownership of sterling se-

curities readily marketable in London. This form of
overseas investment is now being allowed to be increased,

possibly with a view to the use of such funds in an
emergency for obtaining foreign exchange in the manner

so successfully carried out during the World war.
As a means of arresting the trade decline these resources are not comparable with those which were avail-

able in 1931. Apart from the overseas investments, they
are, in short - monetary technique and confidence.

In other words, the British financial ship is a stout
and well-found vessel; her rigging and gear are sound and

of good quality and her master is a skilled mariner, but
she is over-loaded with an excessive burden of expendi-

ture and, since last autumn, she has been sailing, not
only without favorable winds, but into the head-winds of
a trade recession which threatens to develop into a
tempest of deep depression. This storm may prove dangerous in her over-loaded condition and she may have to call

all

Table No. 5 gives such data as are available of the

geographical distribution of British capital invested

abroad.

33

334

all hands to make a alpreme effort and to submit to the
discipline essential in an emergency.
The question inevitably arises as to the probable
character of such an emergency. There is, of course, the

possibility of war, but to prediet the course of British
financial devel opments in that event lies beyond the
scope of this memorandum. There is the certainty of the

burden of the arms race, the end of which is not in sight.
This burden will also be conditioned by the trade trend,
which in turn depends to a large extent upon developments

in the United States during succeeding months. If the
beginnings of a real recovery appear in America, the
situation in Great Britain will be eased and the day when
the financial problems of the United Kingdom become acute

will be correspondingly postponed. But if no adequate
stimulus comes from the United States, there is every

reason to expect a sharp drop in the curve of British
business activity which hitherto has been falling only
gradually. Unemployment, which now stands at 1,748,000,

would rise to say 2,000,000 by the end of the year, (the
level of 1934 and 1935). A growing plethora of funds
would accumulate and lie idle in the banks, with new industrial investment confined to the narrow field in which
armament activity affords a stimulus.
Meanwhile, wage rates would show the usual resistence

to reductions, and there would even be a tendency for
special key sections of armanent workers to press for and

obtain higher wages, with resulting further disequilibrium
throughout the economic body. High costs would continue

to hamper the export trades, and the snowball would roll on.
The

The combination of unemployed workers and unemployed

capital would result in growing political pressure for
action on the part of the Government, which is now com-

mitted against a policy of expanding public works. This
political pressure might well become irresistible.
What form of action would be likely? The obvious
step is a vast public works program along the lines of
the American example. This would provide a certain
amount of employment, taking up some of the slack in

the construction industries which is developing as hous-

ing activity slows down, and it would tend to maintain
internal purchasing power to a certain extent. But a
public works program would not help the great export

industries, where unemployment is extensive: cotton
weavers cannot be put to building roads, nor can publie

works be exported to pay for essential imports. Likewise such a program would not be complimentary to an

armament program as a stimulus to general activity, but
would at many points interfere with it. The armament
program would always have prior claim to funds, and though

a plethora of idle money would render the raising of the
necessary loans cheaper than in a time of industrial ex-

pansion, the rate of growth of national and local debts
would have to be carefully watched.
That some expansion in public works would be re-

sorted to is to be expected, but it is likely that any
such program would be of a limited character and at the
same time be accompanied by other measures.

In general, conditions would tend to emphasize certain
disadvantages of a free economy, and the fact that the
totalitarian system affords certain outstanding advantages
would have to be faced.
The

267
335

-80-

The Totalitarian state maintains a rigid control of
prices and wages. Armament costs can thus be kept at a
minimum and also a given standard of living reasonably
well maintained, while any powers of increased production

resulting from invention or organisation can be directed
to the development of the military machine. Whatever the
consequences may be in the long-run, in the short-run

the totalitarian state can prevent an uneonomic policy
from producing reactions which are inevitable to the
economic and financial fabric of a free economy. Furthermore, because it controls investment the totalitarian
state can keep capital employed. By its control of wage
rates it relieves the entrepeneur of one of his chief
unsertainties, while the whole system of economic con-

trol, if skilfully managed, affords a relative stability
of purchasing power. Thus a constant and persistent

profit margin is virtually assured to any reasonably
efficient enterprise. Though profits may be limited
by other measures of control to specified le vels, the
relative certainty of some margin of profit, even if it
be small, is a stimulus to productive effort which stands
out in contrast to the conditions which prevail in an uncontrolled economy when in the throes of a trade recess-

ion with its characteristic snow-balling influences of
growing unemployment, declining purchasing power and an

accumulating plethora of funds which, by seeking

liquidity, tend to avoid the risks of productive investment.
The

336

-2133

The power of the totalitarian state to force available funds into employment constitutes the advantage

which would become most striking if a major depression
develops in the United Kingdom and it is not inconceivable
that in the absence of some recovery in the autumn, the
British Government may be forced to consider control in

the field of investment before the end of 1939. This
might take the form of the establishment of an investment board, or the use of the already existing British
Industrial Development Company, which was established

by the Bank of England in 1930 to assist the basic in-

dustries to raise the necessary capital for rationalization, and later floated the Laneashire Cotton Corporation Loan, and the National Shipbuilders Securities Com-

pany loan. The basic problem would be to force idle
funds into employment: not only to provide work by means
of public works, but also toehelp the important branches of
the export trades. Furthermore, developments along the

lines of pool be vies to subsidine certain exports are

possible. The coal industry with its central selling
scheme, and the gislation now being drafted for the
cotton industry suggest the possibility of developments

in this direction.
Whether such developments would be followed by other

measures bearing a resemblance to those typical of a

totalitarian system is a question which it would be foolish
at this time to try to answer. Bearing in and the magnitude of the task, and the importance of export trade to
British economic well-being, the future must be regarded

338

210

as holding possibilities which even a year ago would have
been unthinkable. In any case "prophesy is a knave's
business and a fool's paradise."

339

25
TABLE NO. I
RELATIONS BETWEEN NATIONAL INCOME AND GOVERNMENT EXPENDITURE

OF THE UNITED KINGDOM.

£ Millions
8

7

6

5

4

3

2

10

9

Local Total 4 as Exped- 6 as Nat- 8 as Social

1

Flod National Gov't
on % of ional % of Services
Expedtr. Gov't Cols. % of tr.
(j)
Income
Defence 1.Debt
Expen-2&3.

1

1

Ser-

tre.(g)
(1913)

1911-13
1924

929
1932

1933

2,241

4,035
4,384)
3,844)
3,962),

1934

4,238)

1935

4,530)

1936
1937
1938

4,850(d)
5,200(a)

165
745
771
800
719
735
776
830
908

(5,000)(d) 1034

79

160
176
164
167
174
184
192
197

208

vices.

244
906
947
964
886
909
960

1022
1105
1242

10.9
22.4
21.6
25.1
22.3
21.5
21.2
21.0
21.2
24.8

73

115
113
103
108
114
137

186

270
354

3.3
2.9
2.6
2.7
2.7
2.7
3.0
3.8
5.2
7.1

(1913)
24

1.1

357
355
309

8.1

224
224
224
224
227
230

8.8
272

(1930

8.0
5.6
5.2
4.0

327

4.6
4.4
4.6

345,
344

National income for calendar year. Government expenditure for year
beginning April 1st.
(a) Professor Bowley.
(b) Bowley and Stamp.

(c) Colin Clarke - National Income & Outlay" - as quoted in Economist.
(d) Economist rough estimate - Budget Supplement to April 9, 1938, issue,
(e) Including £64 million of borrowed funds.
(f) Including £90 million to be borrowed. Budget estimate.
(g) Rates collected by local authorities, as shown p.10, of Financial
(h)

Statement 1938-9.
Estimate of J.O. Johnstone in Daily Telegraph of May funds. 16, 1938.

(1) Including Air Raid Precautions, etc., and borrowed
(j) National local Government expenditure on Unemployment, Health
health services, etc.

Old Age Pensions, in-

these
figures,
which
these
fees, areexpended, but measure the not been

Poor and cluded Pensions and Relief in and Insurance, received from contributions, (Further degree Housing, sums, to Education, not rents,

etc., self supporting). These figures have

services compiled are for all years on the Table as they involve considerable

calculations.
Rough Estimate - figures not yet available.

340
TABLE NO. II

UNITED KINGDOM NATIONAL DEBT AND CHARGES THEREON.

Millions of £
Year Ended March 31.

1924

Funded Debt

980.3
13.5

1,425.0

1,467.1

3,376.3

3,374.3

3,368.1

3,366.5

3,364.9

18.0

4,431.7
5,868.7

11.9

12.1

12.1

18.1

18.1

12.5

4,786.5
5,780.3

11.7

4,375.8
5,854.6

2,508.7
5,896.9

2,677.4
6,063.8

2,671.7
6,051.9

2,719.1
6,097.7

8,808.8
6,185.8

2,892.5

774.5
588.3
186.2

594.3

612.0
604.5

844.7

782.2

698.1

841 B

799.8

833.4
799.3

828.7

44.9

34.1

763.1
19.1

674.6

7.5

810.5
775.9
34.6

6,554.8
1,125.8
7,680.6

6,463.0
1,066.7
7,529.7

6,466.6
1,090.8
7,557.4

6,707.4
1,060.4
7,767.8

6,908.6
1,036.5
7,945.2

6,885.6
1,036.5
7,922.1

6,879.9
1,036.5
7,916.4

6,883.9
1,032.6
7,916.5

7.1113

39.6

116.4

123.5

124.0

182.9

121.7

180.0

119.3

118.0

80.0

124.5

98.0

90.5

98.5

107.3

116.3

184.0

N.A

9,721.0

7,537.8

7,531.9

7,734.3

7,920.8

7,907.7

7,912.1

7,921.2

N.A

Net Indebtedness of the State

6,483.6

6,303.3.

6,192.5

6,260.5

6,263.6

6,354.1

6,365.5

6,388.9

N.A.

(as estimated by the Economist by
External Debt
deducting:

1,125.8

1,066.7

1,090.8

1,060.4

1,036.5

1,036.5

1,036.5

1,032.6

1,032.5

499.7

375.0

N.A
575.0

78.6
46.1

N.A.

Terminable Annuities
Internal Unfunded long-term Debt.
TOTAL INTERNAL LONG-TERM DEBT

Floating Debt

Treasury Bills.

Ways & Means Advances

TOTAL INTERNAL DEBT
EXTERNAL DEBT

TOTAL DEADWEIGHT DEBT

Victory Bonds, etc. held by
National Debt Commissioners

Accrued Interest on Savings
Certificates

deduct
add

NET TOTAL DEBT

and Estimated Assets, including

111.6

Suez Canal Shares

22.4
991.8

Exchange Equalization Account
Other
TOTAL DEBT SERVICES

Interest
on Saving Certificates
Treasury Bills
Other Internal

Total Interest on Internal Debt.
on U.S. Loan

347.3
305.8
7.2

17.4

251.6
276.2
29.6

Management and Expenses

Sinking Fund.

1.5

40.0

1931

1932

569.8
24.5

1933

1934

1935

168.8
33.1
42.7
93.0

248.6
25.0
52.9
170.7

413.4
175.0
65.6
172.8

620.7
375.0
88.7
157.0

517.1
375.0

360.0
291.8
16.1
12.5
235.9
264.5
27.3

322.0
287.6
15.3
20.7
238.1
274.1

308.5
280.1
15.0**

224.0

224.0

215.2
11.1

1.3

13.5
1.9

66.8

32.5

93.2
48.9

46.8

6.2693
13.1

1,032.5
8,144.1

N.A.

210.7

224.0
209.8

9.0

8.9
3.5

9.4
3.8

198.1

196.6
809.8

216.8

1.1
13.1

10.5

5.9

4.1

239.3
260.2

196.7
811.9

198.2

19.9
2.1

3.3

26.3

510.1
375.0
88.3

23.5

3,364.8

210.5

3.5

1.1
7.7

1938.

1937

1936

210.7

224.0

210.5

1.0

1.0

18.3

18.5

226.7

216.2
N.A.

N.A.
N.A.

The 226.2 million includes management. Budget Estimate for this figure for 1938-9 - 2230 million.
Exclusive of £8,430,922 in 1931-2 and 22,655,955 in 1932-3 paid as interest on Savings Certificates in excess of provision
in the permanent debt charge.

This represents the portion of the total amount paid to the U.S. on December 15, 1932 (228,956,349) which under normal
conditions would be treated as interest. H.M. Government reserved the right to treat the whole sum as capital repay-

ment in any final settlement.

Pending revision of debt agreement, this "token" payment was made.
Excluding expenses of Conversion of 5% War Loan of £23.2 million.
SOURCE: Compiled from Finance Accounts of the United Kingdom for the various years - and the Economist Budget Supplement to

April 9, 1938, issue, and Financial Statement 1938-39.

N.A. Not available

341

TABLE NO. III

Millions of £
Board of Trade Estimates

Kindersley's
Estimates

:Not
Balance :Long term:
of
pay. : Movements includ-:Capital
!movement
balance
:Move: ments.
of Brit- :which
: Exports ing
Gold
Iments.
:Mdse. & : & Im:1sh Cap. :must be
:Net
Extital In- account
:Services: ports
Ivested ted for:
:ports.

Balance : Gold

:Imports+

:in Over- :by Other
:seas
:Capital
:MoveiStock
Exchangesments

Export of(IncludCapital :ing Dir:ect InImport

of Cap-

tital+
+103

1929
1930
1931

-104

1932

51

1933
1934
1935
1936
1937

28

0

,

33

+15

-5

+118
23

+35

- 69

- 15

66
-196
-140

-196
-133

70

11

16
-21

- 37

46

-228

51

79

-247
-130

-721

-816

:ments)

No Est.

-47
-59
-14

30

19

vest

*-0

36

+10

73

+5

+3
-18
-50
-50

50

-209
-179
57

-251
-130

Estimates Not
Available-

Total
1932-1937;

inclusive:

95

50

-110

-876

New loans:Securities
Issued intnot
London, :quoted
:Less re- ton the
:payments. :London
IStock
Exchange
:Purchased

land sold:

assaming that net movement of long-term capital is equalized
by
net flow of British investments to overseas stook exchanges,
in 1937

TABLE NO. IV
BRITISH OVERSHAS LONG-TERM INVESTMENTS

Sir Robert Kinderslay's Estimates.
1

a

$

4

Millions of &
5

6

Nominal &
MuniciGovernment
British
Com-Registered
Companies
Total of Unquoted Total of
panies
OperaColumns
Columns
SecureCapital pal Loans. ting abroad. Abroad.
1, 2 & 3. ties.
4 and 5.
1907...

1911

1,107

1929
1930
1931
1932
1933
1934
1935
1936

1,418
1,437
1,441
1,432
1,479
1,499
1,503
1,441

-

2,700
3,715

- - 2,608

1,187
1,205
1,210
1,204
1,810
1,228
1,236
1,220

839
783
759
719
695

3,438
3,425
3,410
3,355
3,386
3,410

688
698

300
300
290
285
282
300
350
400

3,437

703

3,364

Repayments.
1989
1930
1931
1932
1933
1934
1935
1936

30.4
19.7
16.3

39.7

49.4
23.2
56.2

87.5

3,738
3,724
3,700
3,640
3,666
3,714
3,788
3,764

Net Change.
8.5
9.5
4.9
4.8
7.8
13.3
12.4
18.5

New Overseas Issues.

9.6
9.7
5.6

48.5
38.9
26.8

3.6

(No estimate)
No net change
-10
-5
-3

48.1
66.8

9.6
5.5

42.0
81.1
106.5

12.5
6.5

Rapayments

39
37
53

70
24

+18
+50
+50

31
57

Net Increase , or de-

crease -, in British In-

L929
1930
1931
1932

1933
1934
1935
1936

vestments Overseas.
96
98

49

39
27

41

37

48
67
42

as
63
51

81

61

+47
+59
+14
-11
+16
+21

107

-30
-46

Rough Approximations only.

# Paish's estimates. Statist, February 14, 1914.
Source. Articles June by Sir Robert Kindersley in the Economic

1933, September 1934 and 1935, December 1058 Review, and 1037.

on
TABLE NO. V.

Geographical Distribution of 25,185 million
in 1930, and £3,240 million in 1936 of
Nominal British Capital Invested Abroad.#x

Millions of £
1930

1,987

British Dominions and Colonies
Europe

South America

Argentine

Brasil
Chile
other

United States

648
360
151
49
83

85

31

(Not shown separately)
63

Cuba

40

Japan
China

1,981
236
567
378
160

248

50

Mexico and Central America

1936

76

50
52

81

27
53

41

108

Rest of the World
Foreign Countries
Total

1,198

1,259

3,185

3,240

#X 'The total nominal amount of U.K. Capital invested in Oversea
Government and Municipal loans and in all securities quoted
in London of companies operating abroad is estimated to have
amounted to £5,364 million at the end of 1936.
number of important British companies operating abroad
A assets widely spread in various forms throughout of these the
possess world. consequence, a territorial classification
assets is In not readily possible. Companies of this description (below,
therefore excluded from the geographical table given
are which deals with a nominal capital of 23,240 million
registered abroad have in the main been assigned to

Companies the countries in which they are registered." (Kindersley).

# Turkey as a whole included.

** Total for Mexico would be considerably more if capital long in
default were included.

###

Thetotal
British
long-term
capital
in the U.S.,and
including
branchis
of British
Companies,
securities
not subsidiaries.com dealtin in the U.K., was roughly estimated at £200 million

in 1930, and probably about £245 million in 1936.

#### Chiefly Dutch Malaya, Iran, Egypt, Iran and Portuguano East Africa
SOURCE. Sir Robert Kindersley's article 657. in Economic Journal, June
1933, and December 1937, P.

344

GRAY
EG

Paris

Dated June 29, 1938
REC'D 1:45 p.m.

Secretary of State,
Washington.

1025, June 29, 4 p.m.
FROM COCHRAN.

A further installment of about one hundred decree

laws is published in the Journal Official of today's
date as part of the fourth and last series. The most
important of the financial measures provide for "open
market" operations for an increase from 20 to 30
billion francs of the Treasury advance account at the
Bank of France and for an increase from 3 to 4 billion
francs of the limit of issue of the Bank of France.
In its accompanying report to the President of
the Republic the Government recalls that for many

years past the Central Banks in certain countries
have been authorized to practice "open market" operations.
It points out that capital movements on the Paris market

during the last few years have revealed the utility of
providing the Bank of France with greater freedom of

action and more Effective possibilities of intervention on the market. To this End the report continues
the

345

-2- #1025, June 29, 4 p.m. from Paris

the decree modifies the statutes of the Bank of France

"to pernit it to buy and sell negotiable short term
bills and securities such as bank acceptances, government securities, national defense bonds, promissory

notes, and short dated bills, issued by public

collectivities."
(END SECTION ONE)
BULLITT
RR:WWC

348

RE.

GRAY

Paris

Dated June 29, 1938

Rec'd 3:35 p. m.

Secretary of State,
Washington.

1025, June 29, 4 p. m. (SECTION TWO)

In concluding its report the Government stresses

that while this measure should substantially strengthen
the Efficacy of the discount policy on the money
market, the purchase of negotiable securities by the
Bank of France can not in any case be made for the

benefit of the Treasury or public collectivities
issuing those securities. The General Council of

the bank is to fix the limits and conditions for
open market operations.

It is explained that the decree relating to the
increase of 10 billion francs in the advance account
of the Treasury at the Bank of France ratifies a
convention concluded between the bank and the Govern-

ment following the granting of full powers to the
Daladier Government on April 13 last. At that time
the Government indicated that this additional facility
would

347

REB

2-#1025, From Paris, June 29,4p.m.
(Sec. Two)

would beutilized only to the EXTENT "that normal loan
operations did not provide necessary funds".

Other decrees of interest provide for the modernization and overhauling of hydro Electric power plants

and the creation of a "gold office" with a capital of
100,000,000 francs with the object of exploiting the
gold production of the colonies notably Guiana.
BULLITT
WWC

KLP

348
PARTIAL PARAPHRASE, SECTION THREE, NO. 1025

of June 29, 1938, from Paris
According to press reports the "International Committee on Exchange" which met at Luxemburg last Saturday
and Sunday voted the following recommendations:

(1) Maintenance of the most-favored-nation clause with
a general exception permitting multilateral economic
rapprochement.

(2) Active pursuit of the Anglo-American trade negotiations, embracing as many tariff items as possible.
(3) Practical application of the Van Zeeland report
by the Governments at whose invitation it was made.
(4) General monetary cooperation on the basis of the
Tripartite Agreement.

(5) Consolidation of clearing arrangements with the
cooperation of states whose nationals hold blocked claims.

(6) Development of commercial credits either directly
by central banks or through the B.I.S.
(7) Early removal of foreign exchange restrictions
and replacement of clearings by direct payments.
(8) Extended use of miltilateral compensation pending

the removal of foreign exchange restrictions.
(9) Resumption of foreign investment by countries with

capital reserves, guarantee syndicates being set up in the
creditor countries.
L'INFORMATION, Paris remarks that the fact that Sec-

retary Morgenthau is coming to Europe on a holiday should

give the death blow to the declining rumor that serious

349

-2developments are facing the dollar.

At four o'clook this afternoon I had a talk with the
Bank of France. Today a small amount of sterling around
177.88 was gained by the French control. However, it had

to yield all this to purchase belgas for French railway
maturities on the fourth of July; 8,000,000 more belgas
were purchased for the Bank today by Guaranty. According
to my friend, the story in the London FINANCIAL TIMES today

that the new Paris discount company would attend to invest-

ing the short term funds of the French control is not true
(reference my telegram No. 1020 of June 28).
END MESSAGE.

BULLITT.

03V13038
seei 08

MUL

TH2MTRA930
YAU2A39T

EA:

LW

The memo which came with the financial

report was detached and turned over to
MoReynolds, for the Legislative Section,

on November 4, 1938. It was entitled
Transportation of Dependents and Effects of
US Customs officers dying abroad"; dated

6/14/38, a memorandum to the Ambassador from
Kennedy, Treasury Attache.
350

02

351

July 14, 1930.

10932
6/30/35

fill
Dear Joel

I find that your letter of June 30th,
enclosing two means and a financial report,
has never been acknowledged.

The material you enclosed has had careful

consideration, and I wanted to let you know that
10 had all been received here.
Sincerely,

they
Henerable Jesoph P. Kennety,
Ambassador Plenipotentiary, Extraordinary 03

Ymbassy of the United States of America,
London, England.

JUL

20
4
, us

current

setully
ox3/dbs

T3Uwould

no

352
JOSEPH R KENNEDY
30 ROCKEFELLER PLAZA
NEW YORK. N.Y.

June 30, 1938

Dear Henry:

Pierpont Morgan has the economic report

which they are mimeographing. I am enclosing
financial report and two memoranda which I spoke
to you about.

Very sincerely yours,

JPK/b

James Mummay

Enclosures

Honorable Henry Morgenthau, Jr.,
Secretary of the Treasury

of the United States,
Washington, D.C.

a at \ with , jmL

353

MEMORANDUM
American Embassy,
London,

June 10, 1938.
THE BRITISH FINANCIAL OUTLOOK.

The United Kingdom, in common with other European

countries, is now faced with what might be described as

a race in exhaustion or a financial endurance test. In
spite of Great Britain's wealth and resources a problem

of the first magnitude is rapidly developing.
As its contribution to the armament race now in progress, Great Britain has undertaken a program involving an

expenditure of over L1,500 million in the five years beginning April 1, 1937. Over L400 million of this amount
is to be borrowed, the remainder to be obtained by taxation. Both these announced figures are already out of
date, however, and no limit to the armament program and

the expenditure which it will involve, can be envisaged.
The task of raising the necessary money by borrowing and

by taxation presents difficulties because, on the one
hand the national debt is already very high, and on the

other taxation is admittedly at a level crushing in its
effect.
Up to the present the United Kingdom has been able

to maintain almost complete freedom in the financial and
economic spheres and any measures of drastic control would
be unwelcome. There are, however, disadvantages in economic
and

-20

354
and financial freedom as compared with a totalitarian
system, when a supreme effort 18 called for, especially
if the trade cycle is on the down swing. Circumstances
may compel the United Kingdom to face up to the unpalliatable question - is the degree of economic and financial

freedom which still prevails a luxury which, in the circumstances, she cannot afford indefinitely?
The trade recession which began to be evident in the
United Kingdom in the autumn continues. Up to a few weeks
ago there had always been the hope that some stimulus,

political, economic or American, might turn the tide,
but these hopes are now dwindling and the Stock Exchange,
the business man and the Government are evidently be-

ginning to make their calculations on the basis of a continued business decline, with no such quick release from
the impasse. Unemployment is mounting and will increase

the costs of Government, profits are falling and will
curtail tax yields, exports are declining and widening
the trade balance deficit, income from invisible exports
is declining, and wages remain rigid and industrial costs
high. Such advantage as comes from more favorable terms

of trade is more than offset by the difficulties of competing in export markets, while such stimulus as the
armament program gives to industry is too concentrated

in a few trades to counteract the decline in general in-

dustrial activity.
The present economic situation bears certain resem-

blances to that of 1931, when many of the influences
enumerated above were operative, so that the question
naturally arises whether the United Kingdom can again

employ

353

employ successfully measures similar to those used in

1931. The answer to this is that in 1931 there were
available a number of "resources" which have now been
used up and cannot be tapped again. They were:

1. High interest rates then prevailed which allowed
the introduction of a cheap money policy. The great conversion of 1932 not only effected a saving of some L50

million in interest charges, thus materially reducing
the total Government expenditure, but also acted as a
tremendous stimulus to the economic body. The efficacy
of the cheap money policy as a stimulant is exhausted
and meanwhile its continuance has become an economic nec-

essity. It revived the patient but has now become as a
drug habit; remove it and the patient's discomfort will
become acute.

2. A building boom was then latent, waiting on
cheap money and created by the combination of a war-made

housing shortage and an aroused social conscience with

regard to decent housing. By means of subsidies the
Government had stimulated house building to a point where
about 200,000 homes per annum were being constructed.

After 1932 the figures increased rapidly to 300,000 and
350,000 per annum, while subsidies were gradually given
up. From 1919 through 1937, 3,500,000 houses had been

completed. The building boom stimulated many ancillary

industries, structural steel, and other building materials,
furnishings, etc. etc. The boom has now past its peak
and contraction has begun. The housing shortage, though
not

not entirely overcome, bears no comparison with that which 356
existed in 1932.
3. An over-valued currency was suddenly depreciated

by nearly 30 percent* with no shock to the confidence of

British nationals in their currency or in the credit of
their country. The advantages to the export trade were

enormous while the cost of living in terms of sterling
remained almost stationery; the British market was so

great that the depreciation of sterling, instead of raising internal prices, pulled down world prices. Resort to
further currency depreciation would now carry the danger

of dragging other countries into a depreciation race. The
world, not excluding the United States, is now depreciationconscious and the United Kingdom cannot again expose the

United States and others to a squeeze such as was sub-

mitted to between 1931 and early 1933. The United Kingdom had learned the advantages of currency depreciation

without panic from the French experience of 1928 but in
turn she has taught the world this lesson and she is not

free to try this expedient again with success, except in
very gradual and relatively imperceptible doses.

4. A free trade country in a world of protection by
adopting a general tariff could gain immediate short-run
benefits by handing to British producers the home market,
at the same time righting the balance of payments. The
long

*

i.e. The drop from par ($4.86) to $3.50 which was the
average rate in 1932 (as given in the Federal Reserve
Bulletin) or 28%

-5-

357

long-run disadvantages of a high tariff - and the British
Tariff is high - are only just beginning to show themselves and resort to a still higher tariff would carry
grave disadvantages, because either wages would rise and

force up costs to the detriment of the export trade, or
real wages would fall and curtail effective consumer demand in the home market. Furthermore, tariff increases
breed retaliation and Great Britain depends on overseas

markets for the absorption of a very large proportion of
her production: It was estimated that in 1924 the United
Kingdom exported 27 percent of her production of moveable
goods*, (as compared with 30 percent in 1913). Though

under the protection of the Tariff Act of 1932 the proportion has fallen to a point between 15% and 20% in
1937**, export markets remain of paramount importance to

a number of the major industries of the country. The

cotton industry, which still furnishes the largest item
in British export trade, cannot enjoy prosperity unless
exports expand. In 1924 about 85 percent of the 5,426

million yards of cotton cloth produced in Great Britain
was exported, the home market taking only about 800 million

yards. The lesser percentage exported today, (66%), is in

part a reflection of that industry's acute depression, because the small increase, from 800 million yards to 1,036
million yards between 1924 and 1935, taken by the home

market by no means makes up for a drop in exports
from
4,627

*

A. W. Flux, in a Paper read before the Royal Statistical
Society.

** Rough preliminary estimate of the Board of Trade.

358
-6-

4,627 million yards to 2,013 million yards. About 30
percent of the 267 million tons of coal produced in
1924 was exported and though home consumption has in-

creased from 180 to 185 million tons since that date,

the coal industry feels acutely the fall in exports from
84 to 56 million tons in 1937. The Balfour Committee
estimated that 30 percent of machinery produced in 1924

was exported and about 54 percent of iron and steel production; though the home market takes more of these pro-

ducts at present it is still true that the difference
between prosperity and depression for all these basic

industries lies in the condition of export markets.
5. There was considerable scope for the "economy
axe" in 1931. There is some scope for economy now, es-

pecially in local Government costs, but the greater consciousness of the deflationary effect of contracting public works programs during a business recession stands in
the way of any material reduction, while armament needs
will heavily outweigh any attempts at economy.
6. A Labor Government had been in power for two years

in 1931 and its replacement tended to create a greater
degree of confidence. A Cabinet more likely to command

confidence in British finance than that now in power is
hardly conceivable.
These "resources" have all been used, admittedly with

great skill, and together they brought a recovery which in
early 1937 exceeded the 1929 levels.

But

359

But more important than the lack of these used re-

sources is the difference in the outlook. In 1931 the
United Kingdom looked forward to peace and in 1938 she

looks forward to probable war and certain exhausting
armament expenditure. Furthermore, in 1931 the position

in the trade cycle was at the bottom with revival on
the horizon; today the down-swing of the trade cycle has
begun.

In the absence of the expedients, so skillfully used
to bring the United Kingdom out of the crisis of 1931,

the single task of arresting the present recession or of
bringing the country out of a more serious depression

would be a difficult one in itself. On the other hand,
even if trade were expanding the financing of the rearmsment program would place heavy burdens on British

financial resources. But with the peak years of crippling
armament expenditure falling during a trade recession the
acuteness of the present problem for the United Kingdom
is manifest. Armament expenditure is thus imposing a
financial strain unprecedented in peace-time. The strain
may be seen at three points.

1. The burden of taxation in relation to the
national income.

2. The growth of the national debt in relation to

British credit.
3. The liabilities of London as a short-term
borrower in relation to the maintenance of confidence in

sterling in the face of an increasing debit in the balance
of payments.

To

360

To predict how soon or on which of these three

fronts the strain will reach the danger point would involve assessing a number of imponderables, but an ex-

amination of the present status and the certain and
probable trends may well be attempted.
1. The Burden of Taxation.
Government expenditure, including local government

costs, took over 20 percent of the national income in

1937. What the proportion will be in 1938 it is not
possible to estimate because both items in the equation

are unknown, but the direction of the trend 18 certain.
National income will be less than in 1937 and expenditure

will certainly be more. It seems relatively safe to
place the proportion of the national income which will
be required for Government purposes at around 25 percent

or more in 1938 and it will be much more if, as appears

likely, no signs of recovery emerge by the autumn of this
year.* In the absence of any recovery this year, tax
yields in 1939-40 will fall heavily; unless budgets are
further unbalanced, increased rates of taxation, and/
or new forms of raising revenue, may have to be considered.

But the question arises, what is the psychological
limit of taxation beyond which enterprise may be discouraged to an extent that may reduce tax yields?

It seems safe to hazard an opinion that this limit
has already been reached. It was logical for theChancellor

.

Table No. 1 in the Appendix gives details of Expenditure
and National Income for a number of years.

361

Chancellor of the Exchequer to raise the income-tax in

his recent budget in order to collect at a high rate OR
the particularly good income of the fiscal year ended
March, 1938, and to reserve his borrowing resources to
be used more fully in following years when taxable income

will fall with falling profits. Because the present
rates of taxation may be expected to have an increasingly

deflationary effect on enterprise if trade further declines, additional drastic increases would probably defeat their own ends and are unlikely to be imposed er-

cept in the event of war. The British standard rate of
income tax is now 5s. 6d. in the b, only 6d. less than
the highest rate, 6s. which prevailed from 1918 to 1922.
When the World War broke out, the rate was 1s. 3d. in the
b. It was immediately doubled in the Second Budget of

1914 to 2s. 6d. So far as the level of taxation is conoerned, the United Kingdom, now preparing for the next

war, stands about where she did at the end of the last war.
2. The National Debt.

The United Kingdom has inherited a national debt of
close on 18,000 million from the World War. Some reduetions were made by revenue provision for sinking funds

and by the use of revenue surpluses in many of the post-

war years, but the total has never fallen below 67,400
million, and has been rising aghan since 1931.
The

*

Table No. II in the Appendix gives particulars of the
National Debt in 1924, and 1931-38.

362
-10-

The abandonment of the gold standard in 1931 and the

depreciation of sterling did not result in the reduction
in the total of the national debt in terms of goods and
services which currency depreciation usually affords, because, instead of the expected marked increase in prices,

there followed a fall in world prices which equalized any

depreciation of sterling and left the level of sterling
prices practically unchanged. The United Kingdom, therefore, starts her preparations for the next war about

where she left off at the end of the last war so far as
the volume of her national debt in terms of goods and
services is concerned,

The gross national debt on March 31, 1938, stood at

68,026 million. To this should be added another 11,357
million of local Government debt, making a total of
69,383 million or some 1200 per head of population*.
Though the budget estimates for 1938-39 require an

addition of only about B65 million in the national debt
during the current year, the augmented armament plans

announced immediately after the acquisition of Austria
by Germany may more than double this figure, and will
increase the amounts which must be borrowed in the years

immediately following by further substantial sume.
The
expansion
The Economistim its budget supplement to the issue of

April 9, 1938, suggests that it is more "realistic" to
exclude the external debt (b1,032 million on March 31,
1938), since this is offset by assets in the form of loans
Dominions and former allies, and also to exclude certain
other to assets estimated at about 500 million on March 31,
1937, (and 1700 million on March 31, 1938), consisting
chiefly of the funds of the Exchange Equalization Account, be
Suez Canal shares, etc. Similar deductions might also

in the case of the debts of local authorities which

made would reduce the per capita net liability of the State to

something like 150.

-11-

expansion of the national debt will be further hastened
if taxable income shrinks rapidly after 1938-30 as a result of a sharp fall in trade in the autumn and next
year.*

Though the taxpayer's burden for interest on the
national debt, now placed at L230 million for the current

year, is some L57 million less than before the great conversion of 1932**, much of the saving of that conversion
(about L50 million) has been absorbed in the growing ex-

penditure on the social services, any material reduction
of which may be considered as politically impossible.
Moreover, the interest burden on the debt must increase

as the total size of the debt grows and though this increase in the burden may not be rapid because of the de-

veloped technique in the use of the Treasury Bill together
with the Treasury's influence on the gilt-edged market,
the substantial growth in the national debt, which must
be expected, will necessitate the most careful handling.
The maintenance of confidence in the credit of the Exchequer is all important and becomes an increasingly

delicate problem with every addition to the total of the
debt. It may be asked at what point the national debt
may reach a psychological limit where confidence in

British credit would begin to deteriorate. For reasons
explained on a later page***there would seem still to be
room

The raising of L400 million during 1937-42 is already
provided for in the Defense Loans Act of 1937. Government spokesmen have stated that substantial further
amounts will be borrowed. L100 millions have already
been raised on long-term, and the L28 million revenue
surplus has been allocated for this purpose.
Table No. II contains details of National Debt changes

and shows the amounts "saved" by the cessation of payments on the United States Government Loan, as well as by

the reductions in interest on the internal debt.

*** Pages 15 and 16.

364
-12-

room for considerable expansion of the total debt, the
interest burden on which could be kept relatively small.
3. London's Liabilities as a Short-Term Borrower.
Although the United Kingdom is a large creditor
nation with estimated overseas long-term investments in
1936 (Kindersley) of about L3,364 million (as compared
with Paish's estimate of 1911 of L3,715 million) she has
changed her position as international banker from one of
lender to one of borrower. The amounts loaned in the

financing of foreign trade have contracted, increasingly
so since the spread of exchange and barter agreements,

while in the field of deposit banking she has developed

a large and growing liability. Her position as a shortterm borrower arises from the fact (a) that London is
the center of the sterling area, and (b) that London and
sterling command confidence. The short-term position,

however, increases, apart from the fluctuations of "hot
money" holdings and the London balances of sterling-area

countries, because of the persistent passive balance of
payments.

What may be called the short-term position of London

is impossible to measure. Refugee funds and the sterling

balances of sterling-area countries exist in various forms,
including Treasury Bills, call and short notice loan
money in the discount market, investments in gilt-edged
securities and deposits in banks, while in the case of
refugee funds there are also gold hoards and large amounts

invested in gold mining stocks and other industrial securities, and in foreign and colonial Government loans
issued

365

-13-

issued in London. Though some of these funds are techni-

cally long-term investments they are all similar in that
they are readily convertible into sterling and immediately
withdrawable across the exchanges.

The sterling balances of sterling-area countries may
be roughly estimated at about L400 million or upwards*

but there is no figure available for the total of refugee
funds which make up a large and widely fluctuating propor-

tion of the total short-term position.
Though we cannot estimate London's liabilities on
short-term, we can conclude that there has been a secular
increase in these funds since 1932 because the balance of
payments has shown a constant deficit over this period
which could only have been equalized by capital movements

either long or short-term. If table No. 3 in the Appendix is studied, in which are shown figures for the balance
of payments together with Sir Robert Kindersley's estimates
of long-term capital movements, it will be seen that
roughly some 6876 million unaccounted for capital must have
found its way into the United Kingdom between 1932 and 1937

inclusive. Meanwhile, gold imports during that period
totalled some 1721 million. The total gold in the Bank
of England at 140s. per ounce was 657 million on the
30th September, 1937, and that in the Exchange Equalization

Account was L279 million. In addition there were gold
hoards in London standing at something like L130 to L200

million.**
*

With

Bank for International Settlements Eighth Annual Report, p.63

This is a rough approximation based on the figures

mentioned very in the Bank for International Settlements Eighth
Annual Report, pp. 45 and 47. Changes since September of

1937, in all these figures render the estimates out
date but no later figures are available. The gold hoard
figures are very rough approximations in any case.

366

-14-

With the balance of payments certain to show a

deficit in the current year and probably in future years
so long as the armament race continues, the question is
beginning to be asked, - "will the reserves and technique
of the Exchange Equalization Account prove adequate to
maintain confidence in sterling?" Some misgivings have
recently become evident, especially since the speech of
the President of the Board of Trade in the House of Commone on May 24, but because of the skillful handling of
the exchange situation up to the present it seems safe

to expect that the authorities will be able to maintain
confidence in sterling even if the trade recession develops into a major depression. But with the export
trades showing no recovery, while the minimum food and
raw material requirements and the needed armament mate-

rials keep imports at a high level, the strain will increase and the management of the exchange position will

become increasingly difficult.
To sum up, the financial situation of the United
Kingdom presents an acute problem because the country

is confronted with the peak years of crippling armament

expenditure at a time when the decline of trade is (a)
hastening the arrival of the psychological limit of
taxation, (b) thus forcing an expansion in the already
high national debt to a level that may threaten the
credit of the Treasury and (c) widening the deficit in
her balance of payments to a point that may bring a break

in the stability of sterling.
What are the factors which are available to help the
United Kingdom to keep these three wolves from the door?
1.

367
-15-

1. Probably the greatest asset is the national
character. British nationals will bear a greater burden
of taxation than could be imposed in any other Democratic

country. They have a natural faith in British credit and
in sterling. They also have a most valuable capacity of
giving a united response to a call for supreme effort when

they feel that the interests of their country demand it
and their leadership is responsible and skillful.
Two other assets lie in the development which has
taken place since 1931 in the Treasury's management of
financial and monetary policy. This development gives:
2. The technique and resources of the Exchange
Equalization Account recently tested by the withdrawal
from London of some 670 million of French funds in about
ten days with no appreciable disturbance to the exchange
and money markets. This demonstration of skill and

strength has fortified the already existing confidence
in sterling even in the face of a growing deficit in the
balance of payments and

3. The British Treasury's post-1931 development in
the control of money rates which enables the authorities
to maintain cheap money in the short-loan market which
can absorb large issues of Treasury Bills; this empowers
the Government to finance its needs cheaply and to wait
for the best possible moment to issue such long-term loans
as must be floated. This power, together with the growth
of various Government Department funds* managed by the

national debt commissioners which gives a strong weapon
by

*

Unemployment and Health Insurance funds, Pensions and

Savings Bank funds and the government securities in the Issue

partment of the Bank of England, together constitute nearly

le fifth of the outstanding internal long-term debt.

Testminster Bank Review, May, 1938).

368

-16-

by which the gilt-edged market can be influenced, renders

possible the task of raising further loans, at relatively
cheap interest rates.
Though, as mentioned above, the total debt in terms

of goods and services was not reduced by a price rise in
1931, the great conversion of 1932 did reduce the interest
burden very drastically and though the long-term interest

rate has risen irrespective of short-term rates, it is
still relatively low. It has been as low as 2 3/4 per
cent and today stand at only 3 3/8 percent. Furthermore,
the Government can use the Treasury Bill for meeting its

needs to a very substantial extent. There is a tradition
that the Treasury Bill issue should not go above 11000

million but there is no compelling reason why this limit
should not be exceeded. The Treasury Bill issue now
stands at 1830 million and includes such Treasury Bills
as are held by the Exchange Equalization Account. With

the short loan rate at one half percent and with the
Treasury's powers to maintain the rate down at least to
that level, the financing of the rearmament program need
not bring excessive burdens in the way of increased interest rates. No doubt some longer term issues will be
floated, but a borrower who can wait for an opportune

time and who holds a fifth of the securities in the market,
can borrow with great advantage.

4. British nationals still own some 13,700 million
of overseas long-term investments*. Though any liquidation
of

*

Table No. 4 in the Appendix gives Kindersley's estimates issues

of nominal capital, repayments and new overseas
since 1929.

369
-17-

of these resources tends to curtail the income received
from them, (the most important invisible export item),
these investments constitute a layer of fat on which
the United Kingdom could live for sometime so far as
her balance of payments position is concerned.* Though

the bulk of these investments are in sterling securities,
Kindersley estimates that some b 400 million consisted
(December 1936) in securities readily marketable on
overseas stock exchanges. Such investments constitute

an offset against overseas ownership of sterling securities readily marketable in London. This form of
overseas investment is now being allowed to be increased,

possibly with a view to the use of such funds in an
emergency for obtaining foreign exchange in the manner

so successfully carried out during the World war.
As a means of arresting the trade decline these resources are not comparable with those which were avail-

able in 1931. Apart from the overseas investments, they
are, in short - monetary technique and confidence.

In other words, the British financial ship is a stout
and well-found vessel; her rigging and gear are sound and

of good quality and her master is a skilled mariner, but
she is over-leaded with an excessive burden of expendi-

ture and, since last autum, she has been sailing, not
only without favorable winds, but into the head-winds of
a trade recession which threatens to develop into a
tempeat of deep depression. This storm may prove danger
ous in her over-loaded condition and she may have to call

all

*

Table No. 5 gives such data as are available of the

geographical distribution of British capital invested

abroad.

370
-18-

all hands to make a supreme effort and to submit to the
discipline essential in an emergency.

The question inevitably arises as to the probable
character of such an emergency. There is, of course, the

possibility of war, but to predict the course of British
financial developments in that event lies beyond the
soope of this memorandum. There is the certainty of the

burden of the arms race, the end of which is not in sight.
This burden will also be conditioned by the trade trend,
which in turn depends to a large extent upon developments

in the United States during succeeding months. If the
beginnings of a real recovery appear in America, the
situation in Great Britain will be eased and the day when
the financial problems of the United Kingdom become acute

will be correspondingly postponed. But if no adequate
stimulus comes from the United States, there is every
reason to expect a sharp drop in the curve of British
business activity which hitherto has been falling only
gradually. Unemployment, which now stands at 1,748,000,

would rise to say 2,000,000 by the end of the year, (the
level of 1934 and 1935). A growing plethora of funds
would accumulate and lie idle in the banks, with new industrial investment confined to the narrow field in which
armament activity affords a stimulus.
Meanwhile, wage rates would show the usual resistence

to reductions, and there would even be a tendency for
special key sections of armament workers to press for and

obtain higher wages, with resulting further disequilibrium
throughout the economic body. High costs would continue
to hamper the export trades, and the snowball would roll on.
The

-19-

371

The combination of unemployed workers and unemployed

capital would result in growing political pressure for
action on the part of the Government, which is now COM-

mitted against a policy of expanding public works. This
political pressure might well become irresistible.
What form of action would be likely? The obvious
step is a vast public works program along the lines of
the American example. This would provide a certain amount
of employment, taking up some of the slack in the

construction industries which is developing as housing activity slows down, and it would tend to maintain

internal purchasing power to a certain extent. But a
public works program would not help the great export
industries, where unemployment is extensive: cotton
weavers cannot be put to building roads, nor can public
works be exported to pay for essential imports. Likewise such a program would not be complimentary to an

armament program as a stimulus to general activity, but
would at many points interfere with it. The armament
program would always have prior claim to funds, and though
a plethora of idle money would render the raising of the
necessary loans cheaper than in a time of industrial expansion, the rate of growth of national and local debts
would have to be carefully watched.
That some expansion in public works would be re-

sorted to is to be expected, but it is likely that any
such program would be of a limited character and at the
same time be accompanied by other measures.

In general, conditions would tend to emphasize certai n
disadvantages of a free economy, and the fact that the
totalitarian system affords certain outstanding advantages
would have to be faced.
The

372

-20-

The Totalitarian state maintains a rigid control of
prices and wages. Armament costs can thus be kept at a
minimum and also a given standard of living reasonably
well maintained, while any powers of increased production

resulting from invention or organization can be directed
to the development of the military machine. Whatever the
consequences may be in the long-run, in the short-run
the totalitarian state can prevent an uneconomic policy

from producing reactions which are inevitable to the
economic and financial fabric of a free economy. Further-

more, because it controls investment the totalitarian
state can keep capital employed. By its control of wage
rates it relieves the entrepeneur of one of his chief
uncertainties, while the whole system of economic con-

trol, if skilfully managed, affords a relative stability
of purchasing power. Thus a constant and persistent

profit margin is virtually assured to any reasonably
efficient enterprise. Though profits may be limited
by other measures of control to specified levels, the

relative certainty of some margin of profit, even if it
be small, is a stimulus to productive effort which stands
out in contrast to the conditions which prevail in an uncontrolled economy when in the throes of a trade recess-

ion with its characteristic snow-balling influences of
growing unemployment, declining purchasing power and an

accumulating plethora of funds which, by seeking

liquidity, tend to avoid the risks of productive investment.

The

373

378

-21-

The power of the totalitarian state to force available funds into employment constitutes the advantage
which would become most striking if a major depression
develops in the United Kingdom and it is not inconceivable

that in the absence of some recovery in the autumn, the
British Government may be forced to consider control in

the field of investment before the end of 1939. This
might take the form of the establishment of an investment board, or the use of the already existing British
Industrial Development Company, which was established

by the Bank of England in 1930 to assist the basic industries to raise the necessary capital for rationalization, and later floated the Lancashire Cotton Corporation Loan, and the National Shipbuilders Securities Company

loan. The basic problem would be to force idle funds
into employment: not only to provide work by means

of public works, but also to help the important branches of
the export trades. Furthermar, developments along the

lines of pool levies to subsidize certain exports are
possible. The ooal industry with its central selling
scheme, and the legislation now being drafted for the
cotton industry suggest the possibility of developments

in this direction.
Whether such developments would be followed by other

measures bearing a resemblance to those typical of a

totalitarian system is a question which it would be foolish
at this time to try to answer. Bearing in mind the magnitude of the task, and the importance of export trade to
British economic well-being, the future must be regarded
as

374

as holding possibilities which even a year ago would have
been unthinkable. In any case "prophesy is a knave's

business and a fool's paradise.

TABLE NO. I
RELATIONS BETWEEN NATIONAL INCOME AND GOVERNMENT EXPENDITURE

OF THE UNITED KINGDOM.

£ Millions
2

4

3

5

6

1

Foo

National Gov't

Expedtr.

Income

Gov't Cols.

tre.(g)

911-13
924

929
.932

.933

2,241
4,035

4,384)
3,844)
3,962)

.934

4,238)

935

4,530)

36

37
938

4,850(d)
5,200(d)

(5,000)(d)

(1913)

165

79

745

160
176
164
167
174
184

771

800
719
735
776
830

908
10341

8

10

9

Local Total 4 as Exped- 6 as Nat- 8 as Social
Expen-2&3.

&

7

192
197

208

% of tr. on % of ional % of Services
1 Defence 1.Debt
())
1

Ser-

vices.

244
905
947
964
886
909
960

1022
1105
1242

10.9
22.4
21.6
25.1
22.3

21.5
21.2
21.0
21.2
24.8

73

115
113
103
108
114
137
186
2701
354

3.3
2.9

2.6
2.7
2.7
2.7
3.0
3.8
5.2
7.1

(1913)
24

357
355
309

224
224
224
224
227
230

1.1
8.8
8.1

272

(1930

8.0
5.6
5.2
4.9
4.6

327

4.4 345
4.6

344

H National income for calendar year. Government expenditure for year
beginning April 1st.
(a) Professor Bowley.

(b) Bowley and Stamp.

c) Colin Clarke - "National Income & Outlay" - as quoted in Economist.
(d) Economist routh estimate - Budget Supplement to April 9, 1938, Issue
(e) Including £64 million of borrowed funds.

(f) Including £90 million to be borrowed. Budget estimate.
(g) Rates collected by local authorities, as shown p.10, of Financial

Statement 1938-9.
(h)
Estimate of J.C. Johnstone in Daily Telegraph of May funds. 16, 1938.
Health
(1) Including Air Raid Precautions, etc., and borrowed Unemployment,

(j) National and local Government
expenditure
on Education,
01₫ Age
Pensions, Housing,
not inand Pensions Insurance, health services, etc. (Further sums, rents.

Poor Relief and figures, received from contributions, wilch these
cluded 11: these argexpended, but measure the degree have to not been

fees. etc., self supporting). These figures involve

compiled services are for all years on the Table 83 they
k) Rough calculations. Estimate - f1 TIPES not yet available.

VARLE NO. II

UNITED KINGDOM NATIONAL DEBT AND CHARGES WHERECH

Millions of L
Year Ended March 31.

1924

Funded Debt

Terminable Annuities
Internal Unfunded long-term Debt.
TOTAL INTERNAL LONG-TERM DEBT

Floating Debt

Treasury Bills.

Ways & Means Advances
TOTAL INTERNAL DEBT
EGERNAL DEBT
TOTAL DEADWEIGHT DEBT

Victory Bonds, etc. held by

National Debt Commissioners
Accrued Interest on Savings

Certificates

deduct
add

NET TOTAL DEBT

Net Indebtedness of the State
as estimated by the Economist by
External Debt
deducting:

and Estimated Assets, including

Exchange Equalization Account
Suez Canal Shares

Other
TOTAL DEBT SERVICES

Interest
on Saving Certificates
Treasury Bills
Other Internal

On U.S. Loan
Management and Expenses
Sinking Fund.

1933

1936

3,368.1

11.9

12.1

1,508.7

2,677.4
6,063.8

12.1
671.7

1,425.0

1,467.1

3,376.3

11.7

4,786.5
5,780.3

12.0
1,431.7

5,868.7

4,375.8
5,854.6

1.35

1934

3,374.3

980.3
13.5

5,896.9
810.5

6,051.9

774.5
588.3

594.3
569.8

612.0
604.5

775.9

799.8

833.4
799.3

186.2

24.5

7.5

34.6

44.9

34.1

6,908.6
1,035.5
7,945.2

6,885.6
1,036.3
7,922.1

844.7

3,366.5
12.1

1937

1938.

3,364.9

3,364.8

12.1

128

2,892.5

6,097.7

2,808.8
6,185.8

6.2693

782.2
763.1

698.1

674.6

841 8
828.7

2,719.1

1,036.5
7,916.4

23.5
6,683.9
1,032.6
7,916.5

7,1112
1,032.5
8,144.1

19.1

6,879.9

13.1

6,554.8
1,125.8
7,680.6

6,463.0
1,066.7
7,529.7

6,466.6
1,090.8
7,557.4

6,707.4
1,000.4
7,767.8

116.4

123.5

124.0

122.9

121.7

120.6

119.3

118.0

39.6

124.5

98.0

90.5

98.5

107.3

116.3

124.0

N.L

80.0

7,537.8

1,631.9

7,734.3

7,920.8

7.937.7

7,912.1

7,921.2

N.A.

1,721.0

6,303.3.

6,192.5

6,260.5

6,263.6

6,354.1

6,365.5

6,388.9

N.A

6,483.6

1,066.7

1,090.8

1,060.4

1,036.5

1,036.5

1,036.5

1,032.6

1.0325

1,125.8

510.1
375.0
88.3

499.7

375.0

N.A
575.0

46.8

78.6
46.1

N.A

224.0
210.5

224.0
209.4

9.0
3.5

8.9

9.4
3.8

198.2

198.1

111.6

168.8

248.6

33.1

22.4

12.7

25.0
52.9

991.8

33.0

170.7

347.3
305.8

360.0

322.0
287.6

7.2

Total Interest on Internel Debt.

1932

1931

17.4
251.6
276.2

291.8
16.1
12.5

235.9
264.5

29.6

27.3

1.5
40.0

66.8

1.3

15.3**
20.7

238.1
274.1

65.6
172.8

620.7
375.0
88.7
157.0

308.5

224.0

413.4
175.0

280.1

15.0**

215.2
11.1

5.9

4.1

239.3

196.7

260.2

211.9

517.1
375.0
93.2
48.9

224.0

210.7

3.5

210.7

10.5

196.6
209.8

13.5
1.9

19.9

1.1

1.0

1.0

1.1

2.1

32.5

26.3

7.7

12.3

12.5

13.1

3.3

N.L

226.7

216.2
N.A.
N.A.
N.A.

216.2
10.5

million.

includes management. Budget Estimate for this figure for 1938-9 - £230 in excess
Exclusive The £216.2 of million £8,430,922 in 1931-2 and £2,655,955 in 1932-3 paid CS interest on Savings Certificates of provision
in the permanent debt charge. of the total amount paid to the U.S. on December 15, 1932 (£28,956,349) which sum OD under capital normal

This represents
conditions would the portion be treated as interest. H.M. Government reserved the right to treat the whole repayment in any final settlement.
Pending revision of debt agreement this "token" payment 223.2 million. WAS made.

Excluding expenses of Conversion of 5% War Loan of

SOURCE:

Compiled from Finance Accounts of the United Kingdom or the various years - and the Economist Budget Supplement
April 9, 1938, issue, and Financial Statement 1938-39.2

to

TABLE NO III

illions 01 £
Board or rade stimates

Kincersley's

:

Estimates

:Balance
Balance : Cold
:Net
Long-term:Net
:of pay- : Govements includ- Capital :movement:balance
:Move:of Brit-:which
:ments. : Exports : ing
Gold
ments
:Mase. & : & Im:ish Cap-:must be
Net Ex:Services: ports
:

:ports
I ports+

::vested
:account
:ed for:

:in Over-:by Other

seas :Capital

-

Stock :MoveExchangesments

export of (Includ-

:Capital-:ing -ir-

Import :ect In-

:of Cap- :vest-

: :ments)

:

:
:

1929

+103

: 1930
: 1931

28

-5

-104

+35

118

+15

23
69

No Est

-47
-59
-14

+-0

36

+10

73

:
:

5

-196
-133

-196
-140

16

3

33

70

57

19

-228

51

79

-247
-130

0

7

-21

+ 30
46

-18
-50
-50

50

-209
-179

:

11

57

:

66

:

15

51

:

:

: 1932
: 1933
: 1934
: 1935
: 1936
: 1937

-251

: -130

Estimates Not
available-

:
P

inclusive: -

95

-721

-816

50

-110

:

Total
1932-1937

-876

:New loans:Securities
Issued in:not
London, :quoted
:Less re- :on the
payments :London
:Stock

:Exchange:
:Purchased

:and sold:

issuming that net movement of long-term capital is equalized
in

net flow of Litish investments to verseas stock exchan es,
1937

:

:

TABLE NO. IV
BRITISH OVERSEAS LONG-TERM INVESTMENTS

Sir Robert Kindersley's Estimates.
2

1

3
4

Government British Com- Companies Total of
panies Opera- Registered Columns
sinal & Munici1, 2 & 3.
ital pal Loans. ting abroad. Abroad.
1,107

329

1,412

1,437 -

930

1,441
1,432
1,479

31
32

33
34

1,499

5

1,503
1,441

36

-

2,609

1,187
1,205
1,210
1,204
1,210
1,228
1,236
1,220

839
793
759
110

695
688
698
703

8.5
9.5
4.9

133
134

23.2

13.3

135

56.2

36

87.5

12.4
12.5

31
32

300
300
290
285
282
300
350
400

3,410
3,437
3,364

3,738
3,724
3,700
3,640
3,566
3,714
3,769
3,764

Net Change
30.4
19.7
16.3
39.7
49.4

30

6

Unquoted Total of
Columna
Securi
ties.
4 and 5.

3,438
3,425
3,410
3,355
3,336

payments.
29

5

2,700
3,715

anythis

907gg
311

Millions of £

4.3

7.3

New Overseas Issues.

48.5
38.9
26.8
48.1
66.3
42.0
81.1
106.5

9.6
9.7
5.5
3.5

9.3
5.5
12.5
6.5

Repayments

(No estimate)
No net change
-10

39
37

-5
-3

53

70
24

+18
+50
+50

31
57

Net Increase , or de-

crease -, in British Investments Overseas.

129

96

30

98

31

41

32

37

83
63

35
36

51
61

49

39
27
48
67
42
81

107

+47

+59
+14

-11
+16
+21

-30
-46

Rough Approxist Long only
Paish's estimated
-

Source. Articles
Su, er 1934 Windersloy and 1935, in the 1 33 Revi and 1937. W.
June by fir Robert

TABLE NO. V.

Geographical Distribution of £3, 185 million
in 1930, and £3,240 million in 1936 of
Nominal British Capital Invested Abroad.
Millions of £
British Dominions and Colonies

1930

1936

.987

1, Pel

360

236
667
372

151

160

49

50

83

85

245

Europe

643

South America

Argentine

Brazil
Chile

Other

Mexico and Central America
United States
Guba

Japan
China

Rest of the World

50

52

81

81
27

(Not shown seperately)

copo

Foreign Countries
Total

63

53

40

41

76

102

1,198

1,259

3,185

3,240

"The total nominal amount of U.K. Capital invested in Oversea quoted

and Municipal loans and in all have
of
operating
abroad is
million at the

Government in amounted London to £3,364 companies end of 1936. securities estimated to

of important British companies operating abroad
A number widely spread in various forms throughout of these the
possess assets In consequence, e territorial classification this description

world. readily possible. Companies of given (below.
assets therefore is not excluded from the geographical million table

which are deals with EL nominal capital of £3,240

registered abroad have in the main been (Kindersley) assigned to

Companies the countries in which they are registered.

Turkey as E. whole included.

Total for Mexico would be considerably more if capital long in
default were included.
The total
Britishbranchos
long-term capital
in theCompanies,
U.S., and including
of British
£200securities
million
subsidiaries and the U.K., was roughly estimated 1000. at

not in 1930, dealtim and in probably about £240 million in

0006 Chiefly Dutch Malaya, Iran, Egypt, Iraq and Portuguese East Africa

SOURCH. Sir Robert Kindersley's article in Beenen! June
1933 and December 1237, D. €57.

380

CONFIDENTIAL

Paris, June 30, 1938.

Dear Mr. Secretary:
When I saw Governor Rooth of the Swedish

Central Bank at Basel earlier in the month,
he mentioned to me that Governor Eccles had
sent him a copy of one of his speeches.

Governor Rooth said that he disagreed widely
with some of Governor Eccles' views expressed

therein. He did not intend to endeavor to
refute these ideas directly but did propose
to set forth in his acknowledgment certain
practices followed in Sweden which were in
direct opposition to the practices or views
of Governor Eccles. Governor Rooth has been
kind enough to give me confidentially a copy
of his letter of June 28 to Governor Eccles,
and I am enclosing this for your purely
personal information.

I have to-day received from Mr. Gaston
a few copies of your address delivered at
Temple University, and am happy to be able

The Honorable Henry Morgenthau, Jr.,

Secretary of the Treasury,
Washington, D. C.

-2-

381

to forward one of these to Governor Rooth

at this time.

Your letter of June 15 in regard to the

contemplated visit of Mr. and Mrs. Werner
Josten came this morning, and I shall, of
course, be delighted to do anything possible
to make their visit pleasant when they arrive
in Paris.
We are looking forward with much pleasure

to your arrival in France and hope that you

may have a fine crossing.

Faithfully yours,

STOCKHOLM, 28th June, 1938.

382

(_c_0_P_X_)

Merriner S. Ecoles, Esq.,
Governor,

Federal Reserve Board,
Washington, D. C.
U.S.A.

Dear Mr. Governor,

Many thanks for your letter and for the address,
which I have read with great interest. Many of your
problems have also been our problems, but there are

also great differences. As you may perhaps be inter-

ested in hearing about our policy in this country I
take the liberty of mentioning some of the principles
which we have tried to follow.
As a general observation with regard to differences
between American and Swedish economists it is interesting

to note that we in Sweden have not taken a purely
monetary view of the reasons for the depression and
the possible ways out of it as some of your economists
have done.

When embarking upon the public works policy in the

hope thereby to a certain extent to equalize activity
during depressions and booms the Swedish government

from the very beginning took the view that provisions
should be made for the repayment of the unproductive

debt incurred for the public works programme. An
increase of death duties was set aside and later a
special income tax was levied for this purpose. The
whole unproductive debt thus incurred, which should
have been repaid within seven years, was within
in fact repaid

-

383

within four budget years after the policy had been
entered upon.*

The principles for unbalancing the budget during
a depression have afterwards been studied by a Royal
commission. Some rules have been laid down and have

been accepted by Parliament. In order not to deteriorate
the financial position of the Government it was decided
that amounts spent in a depression should be repaid in
the subsequent period of increasing activity thus

avoiding an accumulation of the liabilities of the
state which might endanger confidence and ultimately

perhaps also the currency.
We are, of course, aware that such a policy is
open to abuses, if the programme is not followed, but

we do hope that the principles will be followed. In
this connection I will mention that there were no
dissensions among the different parties in Parliament
when the bill was passed.
When Sweden was forced off the gold standard in
1931 some of our economists suggested that the new

policy of Sweden should be to keep prices stable.
There were differences of opinion between economists
as to which price index should be followed.of The Bank

*

I should perhaps mention here that the interest million on

the Swedish government debt was about Kr. 92
in the financial year 1936/1937, whereas the income

of the State railways, the Post office, the Telegraph Forests

office, the Water Power Board, and the State the
totalled Kr. 146 million in the same year, and about
income of the different State loan funds was

Kr. 44 million.

-3-

384

of Sweden started a new consumption-price index (the
old one calculated by a government body was out of
date). Parliament drew up a programme in 1933 which

was to a certain extent based upon price stability.
The Bank of Sweden has the whole time more stressed

the important of stable exchanges especially for a
country like Sweden with a great external trade. It
has been said that we in the Bank have been following

old central bank principles but with an eye all the,
time on the price-indices. The general principles now
agreed upon in this country are practically the same as
those stated by the Governors of the Federal Reserve
Board in 1937.
As you may have seen from Professor Montgomery's

book the rapid change in Sweden's position after the
1931 crisis was mainly due to the demand for our export

products. I believe, however, that the stability of the
leading exchanges has played an important part chiefly

for exporters but also for the maintenance of confidence
in general.
In order to make industry remunerative we had after
1931 wage reductions in the most important industries.
Later on the wages have been raised. The trade unions
are strong, and we have as a rule agreements for two
years between the employers and the trade unions,

roughly half of these agreements terminating at the

end of this year and the other half at the end of next
year.

We

-4-

385

We have also had a substantial reduction in the

rate of interest on all sorts of loan. Perpetual
government bonds, which at the end of the twenties
were quoted on a 4 1/2% basis, are now below 3%.
3% perpetual government bonds are at present quoted
at 105 1/4%.

The building activity in Sweden has been and still

is very great. This is undoubtedly to a large extent a
consequence of the reduction of the rate of interest on
mortgages. It is now possible to find a first mortgage
up to 60% on a farm or a house in a town for a period
of 60 years at the rate of about 3%. Insurance companies
are prepared to lend on first mortgages up to 67% for

ten years at the rate of 3%. Seventy years' 2 1/2%
bonds issued by the Town Mortgage Bank of Sweden are

at present quoted at 94 1/2% giving a net yield of
about 2.7% to which has to be added, however, 1/10 of
1% as commission for the Mortgage Bank.

In the present situation there is a very keen
competition among the mortgage institutions, insurance
companies, and savings banks for investments in
mortgages.

I also enclose three notes which have been written
in the Bank and which might interest you.

Permit me to take this opportunity of introducing

my intimate friend.
Generaldirekter Herman Eriksson

who is one of the most prominent members of
the Swedish
Delegation
.

.

-5 -

3861

Delegation for Delaware.
Mr. Eriksson who was formerly Under-Secretary of

the Treasury, is President of the Board of Trade. The
Swedish Board of Trade is not exactly the same as the

British institution. It is a central authority
originating from about 1650 which directly under the
Department of Commerce deals with practically all
economic matters. The Board of Trade issues regular

publications on different matters and calculates our
wholesale-price index.
Mr. Eriksson is at the same time chairman of the
Committee for Commercial Treaties with other countries

and chairman of the Board of our Institute for Economic
Research.

Mr. Eriksson will arrive in Washington one of the

first days of July.
with kind personal regards,
I remain, dear Mr. Governor,
Sincerely yours,
(sgd)

Encl.

/ws

Ivar Rooth.

FEDERAL RESERVE BANK
OF NEW YORK

387
DATE June so, 1938.

OFFICE CORRESPONDENCE

SUBJECT TELEPHONE CONVERSATION WITH

CONFIDENTIAL FILES

BANK OF ENGLAND.

J. W. McKson

In the absence of Mr. Bolton I called Mr. Hawker at 10:15.
We both agreed that during the past week all foreign exchangeshad

been exceptionally quiet. Hawker was very much interested in the
phenomenal rise in our stocks during the past 10 days and I gave him

the following resumes Since June 20 some of our leading stocks advanced $24 a share and according to available figures the buying
came from within our own country. Hawker said that it was quite
obvious that Europe was not buying stocks as a quick review of the
exchange market for the past two weeks showed very little activity.
I stated that capital movements of short term banking funds and security
transactions for the week ending June 22 showed a further outflow of
funds of about $15,000,000. There were no further gold shipments

since my last conversation with Bolton. Hawker stated that for the
past three weeks Japanese operations had been very quiet. Russian
gold continued to come into the London market in dribs and drabs.

During the past two weeks about £1,500,000 of gold had arrived, of
which about half had been sold and the balance held in stock. Russian
sterling balances were reasonably large at present, but he would

not be surprised to isse the sell a large part of their balance the
beginning of next week. Continental currencies also remained quiet,
i

with belgas strongly hid,
JWMCK:KU

-

FEDERAL RESERVE BANK
OF NEW YORK

388

DATE June 30, 1938.

OFFICE CORRESPONDENCE

SUBJECT: TELEPHONE CONVERSATION WITH

CONFIDENTIAL FILES

BANK OF FRANCE.

J. W. McKeon

I called Cariguel at 11:50. He stated that continental
exchanges had been very quiet during the past week with the result

that on balance he had neither gained nor lost exchange. He was
very much interested in the strength shown in our stock market
during the past ten days which, as he stated, "Has all Europe guessing."

He stated that this is the first time in quite a few years that
Europe had not been a strong buyer of stocks here when an upward

swing occurred. I stated that the advance of some of our leading
stocks had been very rapid, some gaining as much as $24 a share with

a general advance in most of the stocks. He asked about the capital
movement of funds and I told him that during the week ending June 22
there had been an outflow of about $15,000,000.

JWMCK1KW

03/13038
8801

389

GRAY

EG

London

Dated June 30, 1938
REC'D 2:20 p.m.

Secretary of State,
Washington.

578, June 30, 6 p.m.
FOR TREASURY FROM BUTTERWORTH.

ThE statement of the position of the Exchange

Equalization account issued last night indicates that
in the six months period ending March 31 the account
added only 2,692,000 OUNCES of gold to its stock and
that the Bank of England account remained unchanged.

This increase is of course very moderate in relation

to the activity of the equalization account and reflects
the Extent of the opposing cross currents Encountered

during that time. The total of the Equalization account
.

amounted to 42,546,000 OUNCES as compared with 26,674,000

OUNCES a year ago (my 412, June 28, 7 p.m.) and the total

in the Bank of England stock amounted to 76,843,000 as
compared with 73,842,000 a year ago, the grand totals
being 119,389,000 ounces as compared with 100,516,000

OUNCES of a year ago. Incidentally the net imports of
gold into the United Kingdom during the six month
period
Ending

390

-2- #578, June 30, 6 p.m. from London
Ending March 31, 1938 and September 30, 1937, WERE

64,766,000 and 39,480,000 respectively. The extent

and character of the rise in Wall Street while gratifying
is frankly perplexing to the city. HOWEVER, commodities
have reflected this movement and also the London stock
#:

market today was very strong, nevertheless skepticism is

still the order of the day.
The Exchange market continues relatively inactive.
JOHNSON

KLP :WWC

391

June 30, 1938.
11:51 A. M.

H.M.Jr:

Hello.

Operator:

Mr. Hanes.

H.M.Jr:

Yeah.

Operator:

Go ahead.

H.M.Jr:

Hello.

John Hanes:

Hello, Mr. Secretary?

H.M.Jr:

Talking.

H:

John Hanes. Could I come over to see you?

H.M.Jr:

Ah - now?

H:

Well - ah - the reason I say now is because

I'm - I'm - I'm just - we're just running

between meetings here.
H.M.Jr:

Oh.

H:

So, if you're not busy I'd like to see you as

H.M.Jr:

Well, could you come right over?

H:

Right this minute.

H.M.Jr:

O. K.

soon as I can.

June 30, 1938.
9:30 A. M.

GROUP MEETING

Present:

392

Mr. Oliphant
Mr. Gaston

Mr. Haas

Mr. White
Mr. Upham

Mr. Lochhead
Mr. Gibbons

Mr. Bell

Mr. McReynolds

Mrs. Klotz

H.M.Jr:

Mac, you'd better get Ed Kilby or Broughton on

the part of the building they have under their

jurisdiction.

McReynolds: See, Hall doesn't have jurisdiction on that.
H.M.Jr:

Go out side and get a party organized and have

them waiting for me at ten o'clock and we'll go
over there and do it. Have them ready. I've got
a half hour between ten and ten thirty. You
just go up stairs and see the people working
under the conditions they are, on the floor above
where we are, and then the people talk about

labor unions. I'd join a labor union too.
They've got a room up there, to that first place
(indicating) and back, with one window in it
and deven people. I'd join the most radical
labor union I could, and I'd demand

Bell:

Did you see the vault?

H.M.Jr:

I saw plenty.

Bell:

That's all mine; my office.
I'd join the most radical labor union I could
and say, "I'm entitled to fresh air." The United

H.M.Jr:

States Government should take care of it.

Klotz:

Who started this thing?

H.M.Jr:

Bell.

-White:

How'd you happen to go up there?

H.M.Jr:

I've always said that any Government employee in
my office could come in and speak to me. A
young lady came in and reported this, and I went
up there and saw it. I've always assured them
there wouldn't be any jumping on their necks.
Professor Oliphant.

Oliphant:

A short meeting of that group at ten o'clock.
Like our conversation yesterday, I think it's

H.M.Jr:

393

rather amusing - Pearson and Allen - the words
they put in Bob Jackson's mouth on what he pro-

poses to do with taxation.

Oliphant:

I didn't see it.

H.M.Jr:

Take a look at it today.
(Nods to Mr. Gaston.)

Gaston:

(

I haven't anything except if you should want to

use some words on the corner stone. (Hands H.M.Jr.
paper.)

H.M.Jr:

0. K. I'll read it later on. Got the champagne?

Gaston:

That's going to be fixed. Mrs. Luke Wilson is
going to entertain after the corner stone laying.

H.M.Jr:

Who is Mrs. Luke Wilson?

Gaston:

She is the lady who gave the land.

H.M.Jr:

I still say, who is she?
I don't know anything about it except she's still

Gaston:

Gibbons:

got land.
The land was all under water.

H.M.Jr:

(Speaks aside to Mrs. Klotz.)
Anything else, Mr. Oliphant?

(

liphant:

No.

394

-3H.M.Jr:

Anything else?

Gaston:

No, nothing else.

H.M.Jr:

All right.
I signed those letters yesterday. I hope they
are all right. And, incidentally, for heaven's
sake, before he comes over for lunch, get me up

a letter to send over to Eccles, explaining
what we've done. Say "Dear Marriner: You will
be interested in seeing a letter I have sent
over to the President, explaining what we've
done. Maybe you'd like to have your own staff

look over it."

"Your own staff ..." - I didn't get that part

Haas:

of it.

H.M.Jr:

Have them all look it over.

(Telephone.) Hello. I'm at a staff conference.
(Mr. Gaston hands H.M.Jr. slip of paper which he

reads.)
Haas:

H.M.Jr:
Haas:

That last figure, Mr. Secretary, on steel
Just a moment. What did you say.
That last figure on steel included two days of
that stock market rise and it was just preceding

the announcement of the price cut, and it simply
developed - the steel - I don't know what effect
it might have on new orders temporarily. Each
day you hear a new announcement that the differential

on Cleveland is taking off, and so on. That
might hold that situation up temporarily.
(Mr. McReynolds returns.)

H.M.Jr:

It's a great advantage to the automobile companies,
but they are doing the buying now and as a basis
of what they pay now, will depend on what the

price of the automobiles will be this fall. If if
the automobile people can cut their prices it's only fifteen dollars - they can cut their
prices and get out a new model, and it will make
all the difference in the world.

395

-4Haas:

The parts companies have already dropped their
prices.

H.M.Jr:

I have also noticed they have dropped the price
on cement too. For an automobile fellow to know

he can buy his sheet steel and all the rest of
the stuff now on the market, if they could cut

the price of automobiles fifteen dollars, it
just makes a difference.

Haas:

Oh yes, that cures that price dilemma, you know.
I have a few old things that sometime you may
want to clean up before you go on your vacation.

H.M.Jr:

All right. I've got two weeks yet.

Haas:

Some other things I want to give to Miss Chauncey;
she brought in some letters for Harry and me to

H.M.Jr:

look over. I think I'll give them to her.
All right.

White:

In that connection, George, didn't last year when
the automobile people were down here, remember

when you asked them why they didn't cut the

price of automobiles? They said they couldn't
cut the price of automobiles so long as steel
was up. That is the answer they gave.

H.M.Jr:

Well, Plymouth comes out in September with their

Haas:

The trade reports are already mentioning the

new model - earlier than - they are the first
ones - and I don't suppose they make up their
minds for the price until around the first of
September. They wait until the last minute.

fact that the price of automobiles is going to

be cut.
H.M.Jr:

In the face of that Ford is going up, and rail-

Haas:

If that acts as a forecaster, the seasonable

roads are going up.

thing is down some.
H.M.Jr:

(From news clipping.) "Kennedy declares business

is better."

396

-5Oliphant:

That makes it all right.

Gaston:

He denied he caused the stock market rise on his

H.M.Jr:

optimistic statement on his arrival.

He also said that it was an unmitigated lie that

he was a number one whiskey salesman.
Gaston:

Yes.

H.M.Jr:

What else, George?

Haas:

That's all.

H.M.Jr:

(Nods to Mr. Gibbons.)

Gibbons:

See you at eleven o'clock?

H.M.Jr:

Well, that's off. Waesche is going to New York.
He wants to talk airplanes with Boeing tomorrow.
(Nods to Mr. Lochhead.)

Lochhead:

I've just had a last talk, and unfortunately,
they have had very heavy fog for three days.
I don't expect it in before Saturday afternoon.
They are pushing it as hard as they can.

H.M.Jr:

Bet you Franco has got a couple of fellows down

Oliphant:

What's that?

H.M.Jr:

I'll bet Franco has a couple fellows down in
the boiler room.

Oliphant:

Pouring water in the boiler. It couldn't arrive

there in the boiler room.

at a much worse time.

Lochhead:

The stock market opened on a very heavy volume

H.M.Jr:

Cy.

Upham:

(Hands H.M.Jr. incoming letter.)

Oliphant:

That window still open?

on the up side. That's all.

-6H.M.Jr:
Haas:

H.M.Jr:
Upham:

Yeah.

For the shorts?

(Looks at letter.) Bob Hanes. O.K. Will you
answer it for me? Oh, that's to you.
It's to me.

H.M.Jr:

(Tolunch.
Mrs. Klotz:) You check with Cy who's coming
for

Klotz:

Yes. I invited two and he invited five.

Upham:

Seven besides the Secretary.

H.M.Jr:

We are having the heads of these bank examining

agencies in for lunch, just to make sure that
the team is still playing, and now that they've
got the regulations, they are going to carry them

out in the proper spirit.
(Nods to Mr. Bell.)

Bell:
H.M.Jr:

I've got two letters for signature - just usual
authorizations to audit the stabilization fund.
I take it that you are sending copies of the

White:

quarterly report to the people abroad.
Yes. They go to them.

H.M.Jr:

Anything else?

White:

With respect to that stabilization fund, Archie
and I feel if you are going to make any committments at all it ought to be reduced - just
three items.

.M.Jr:

397

I'd be glad to go over that with you.

White:

You're not going to do anything on that?

Oliphant:

It's all clear on the legal side. It will be
over your name, with the approval of the
President.

-7 White:

398

Except that if it's done with the approval
of the President, it might appear as though it's
a replica of or accompanying an audit you have
to make each year, and since it's our thought

it ought to be done just as fairly as possible,
it ought to be in the form of a release. The
audit has to be in a good deal more detail,

doesn't it, Herman?
H.M.Jr:

What three would you have?

White:

What the fund started with. What the net

operating profit is. What there is now over the whole period. If you insist, I think

it's better to avoid that.

H.M.Jr:

No, I - what we started with - two billion dollars,
and the fund now is worth two billion dollars
and so much, and then an inventory that we have

White:

I would feel very strongly against that, Mr.
Secretary, for these reasons: If you have an
inventory you have to indicate whether it's in
gold, foreign exchange, or cash assets. If you
call it cash assets you don't have to do that.

H.M.Jr:

Well, the simplest way, Harry, is to start with
the least - the minimum - and then if it takes well, why don't you say this, or that? Well,
if the pressure is enough we can always add a
little more the next time. I think that would

(

be enough.
White:

Of course, it's all right over a four-year period,
but if you have it over a period of one year and
have to indicate how much exchange assets you

have.

Bell:

After all, the administrative expenses have been
very small. It shows you operating four years at
a ridiculously low sum, which is very good at

this time.

H.M.Jr:

Dan.

Bell:

Mr. Straus apparently would like to get some
answer to this letter before next week. You
know, I asked you if you wouldn't wait until

399
8

Taylor got back. I think Mr. Foley and I could
handle it, if you authorize us. We'11 prepare
a letter for your signature.
H.M.Jr:

I don't see how you can shade that legal ruling.

Bell:

It isn't so much a legal ruling. Their kick

is, two months ago you said two and a half
per cent is the going rate. Now you come out
with a bond issue at two and three-quarters
per cent.

H.M.Jr:

Why should we consult them.

Bell:

He contended that it is not a compliance with

H.M.Jr:

the spirit of the law.
You fix the letter.

Bell:

We ought to have a conference, to satisfy them.

H.M.Jr:

Mac?

McReynolds:

I'm saving mine for the space trip.

H.M.Jr:

You are, are you?

Gibbons:

Are you going up to the corner stone laying?

H.M.Jr:

Which one?

Gibbons:

Today, isn't the President laying the corner

H.M.Jr:

I am not. I have grave responsibilities here.

McReynolds:

I thought you were going to lay the corner stone

H.M.Jr:

We have our own corner stone - Public Health.

stone?

today.

Dan, if you'll stay right now, I'd like to talk
to you, please.

400

TREASURY DEPARTMENT
INTER OFFICE COMMUNICATION

DATE June 30, 1938
TO

FROM

Secretary Morgenthau
Herman Oliphant

For your information -

There was a meeting in Lubin's office this morning at 10 o'clock,
attended by Lubin, Labor; Arnold, Justice; Patterson, Commerce; Ferguson,

Federal Trade Commission; Peoples and myself.

Thurman and Douglas had discussed with O'Mahoney points which I

told you yesterday were covered by the meeting at Arnold's house, and
this morning's meeting was to report the results of that schedule.
O'Mahoney agreed on all points except he had a man from his own
State whom he wanted as Executive Secretary; he objected to Henderson

having the title of Executive Secretary and wanted to appoint John D.
Clark of his State to some important post in the study.
It was agreed that Arnold and Patterson would see O'Mahoney again

to insist that O'Mahoney's first political appointee act as a personal

assistant to O'Mahoney, and that Henderson should have a title enabling

him effectively to coordinate the research. It was recalled that John D.
Clark had written a bitter letter to the President when he did not get
an appointment to an important post in the Administration, and had subsequently attacked the Administration, particularly on account of the

oil prosecutions.

The meeting of the full Committee has been called for 2 o'clock
tomorrow, and I verified with the group meeting this morning that it was

all right for Peoples to attend, regardless of the fact that the resolution creating the Committee provides "Such representative may designate an

alternate to sit and act for him on the Committee in his absence."

the

401
June 30, 1938

CONFIDENTIAL confidential
Memorandum to the Secretary:

11mg
Re: Meeting of Executive Representatives
of Antimonopoly Committee

A confidential meeting of the Executive Representatives was held in the
office of the Department of Labor Representative, Mr. Lubin, at 10:00 A. M.
this morning, adjourning at 11:30 A. M.
Present:

From Justice

Thurman W. Arnold

From Labor

R. C. Patterson
I. Lubin

From Federal Trade

G. S. Furgeson

From Commerce

From Treasury

H. Oliphant and
C. J. Peoples

From S.E.C.

None

The purpose of the meeting was to receive an informal report of the
results of the luncheon meeting Wednesday, June 29th, with Mr. Arnold, Mr.
Douglas and Senator O'Mahoney.

Mr. Arnold stated that the Senator was agreeable to the Chairmanship
and various other matters discussed the night before with regard to Public
Statements, Witnesses, Publicity, Space and Staff.
Senator O'Manoney desires that a Mr. Himber of Cheyenne be designated

as Assistant to the Chairman, and while agreeing to the selection of Leon
Henderson, he thought that the designation of the latter as Executive Secretary should be changed.

Those present at the meeting were of the opinion that as the Executive
Secretary would be in effect the General Manager of the Committee it was vital
to insist on his duties as such, with such title as Executive Secretary or
Administrative Secretary or possibly as Coordinator.
As to Mr. Himber, the meeting thought that an effort should be made to
have him designated as Personal Assistant to the Permanent Chairman.

Mr. Arnold and Mr. Patterson were to have a further interview with Senator
O'Mahoney at 2:30 P. M. today.
Senator O'Mahoney also thought it would be well to take as on he a has Mr. been John a D.

Clark, but the executive members objected to this inasmuch "Anti-Trust Laws", and

Administration, is the author of a book to the execu-

critic is more of or the less monopoly minded. Therefore he was not agreeable
tive members.
suggested that two official persons be whom designated would be with available power to in

issue Mr. subpoenas Arnold either jointly or separately, to. one The of first meeting of the whole
committee Washington is at to all be times. held in This Senator was O'Mahoney's agreed office, Senate Office Building,

Room 224, at 2:00 P. M. July first.

402

Att
June 30, 1938

To:

The Secretary

From:

Miss Lonigan

Eh

Attached are two tables showing consump-

tion of surplus commodities in the District of
Columbia

1. Total poundage and estimated value,
June, 1935 through June, 1938

2. Separate food items January, 1938
through June, 1938

403
SURPLUS COMMODITIES DISTRIBUTED

IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
1938

Commodities
January

Apples

Prunes (dried)
Rice

Shortening
February

Apples
Celery
Oranges

Potatoes (white)

March

Apples

Celery

Lima Beans (dried)
Oranges

Potatoes (white)
Rice

Shortening
April

Apples

Butter
Cabbage

Celery

Dry Skim Milk
Lima Beans (dried)
Oranges

Sweet Potatoes
White Potatoes
Rice

Shortening
May

Apples (fresh)
Apples (dried)
Butter
Cabbage

Celery

Dry Skim Milk
Oranges

Potatoes (white)
Rice

String Beans

Number
of
Pounds

Families

144,745
32,363
20,618
32,534

6,918
10,415
10,415
10,415

20.9
3.1
2.0
3.1

316,305
1,618
60,414
142,245

10,832

29.2
2.9
11.5
25.0

458,370
33,622
32,361
247,002
110,600
21,413
16,161

13,780
13,780
11,267
13,780
13,780
11,267
11,267

33.3
2.4
2.9
17.9

333,434
23,323

12,540
9,910
4,590
12,540
8,391
4,874
12,540

26.6

55,370
54,486
32,560
15,429
259,567
162,670
133,280
17,098
17,098

71,531
33,064
30,997
166,409
49,690
47,440
318,806
343,000
43,717
13,939

Number
of

553

5,250
5,696

7,842

6,346
11,058
6,669

2,414
10,001
11,802
11,802
885

9,417
11,802
11,802
11,802
3,717

Pounds per

family per
month

8.0
1.9
1.4

2.4

12.1
4.3
3.9
3.2
20.7
20.7

21.0
1.5

2.6
29.6
3.3
2.6
14.1
56.1
5.0
27.0
29.1
3.7
3.8

-2-

404

SURPLUS COMMODITIES DISTRIBUTED

IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
1938

Commodities

Number
of
Pounds

Number
of

Families

Pounds per

family per
month

June

(Estimated)

String Beans

Beets (fresh)

Dried Apples
Tomatoes (fresh)
Cabbage

Butter

Potatoes (white)
Oranges
Rice

38,717
92,541
40,860
24,550
58,601
30,543
337,000
156,712
42,767

11,710
11,710
11,710
11,710
11,710
11,710
11,710
11,710
11,710

3.3
7.9
3.5
2.1
5.0
2.6

28.8
13.4
3.7

405

SURPLUS COMMODITIES, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

ACTUAL DISTRIBUTION, JUNE 1935 - JUNE 1938

Retail

Total

Milk(1bs)

Value

Food

Retail

Dry Skim

Value

Eggs

Retail

(doz)

Value

Total

Retail
Value

(1bs)
-

ept.

-

104,915
281,474
308,196
59,481
229,175
102,561

20,983
56,295
61,639
14,870
49,969
20,512

388,648
433,084
459,905
412,765
590,324
265,567

77,730
86,417
91,981
82,553
118,065
53,113

313,147
217,478
217,107
221,949
356,829
300,417

62,629
43,496
43,421
44,390
71,366
60,083

261,287
229,441
137,904
312,949
144,589
275,708

52,257
45,888
27,581
62,590
28,918
55,142

665,100
246,278
422,335
562,996
759,734
360,020

133,020
49,256
84,467
112,599
151,947
72,004

-

-

-

-

-

141
800

14

-

-

80

-

-

1,000
7,000
1,400

100
700
140

-

-

14,970

-

-

50,669

-

-

20,652

19,600
12,000
4,486
15,332

1,960
1,200

-

-

79,690

-

-

87,617

449

-

-

1,533

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

2,993

-

-

- 10,708
- 34,798

3,212
10,439

$

-

-

29,933
-

35,908

656

-

6,563
61,970
63,932

6,197
6,393

37,236
35,182
25,157
13,603

3,724
3,518
2,516
1,360

1,087,222
1,072,130
1,000,150

46,028
109,686
187,111
217,444
214,426
200,030

$

20,983
56,309
61,719

92,430
84,086
118,065
53,113
62,629
43,496
43,421
44,390

71,366
63,076
55,469
56,327
38,353

10,772

63,246
35,115
66,993

-

-

18,197

5,458

5,803

1,741

138,485
52,774
86,983
117,675
159,315
72,004

-

-

-

-

3,716
7,303

12,388
24,376

65

650

$

-

-

-

-

-

230,145
548,430
935,554

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

32,365
47,440
-

3,237
4,744
-

-

-

-

-

46,028
109,686
187,111
220,681
219,170
200,030

q30

406

TREASURY DEPARTMENT
PROCUREMENT DIVISION

All

WASHINGTON

OFFICE OF THE DIRECTOR

June 30, 1938

MEMORANDUM TO MR. MC REYNOLDS:

On June 23, 1938, there was delivered to the Procurement Division by
Mr. Holmes of the Works Progress Administration, Requisition No. 7-32-D.C.

for the following materials, allocated to the states indicated, which it

was estimated would cost approximately $12,000,000:
New York City

Cement (barrels) 350,000

200,000 yds.

Sand

100,000 "
670,000 "

Gravel
Stone

-

Asphalt
Maximum Funds

Allotted

Illinois

Michigan

500,000

500,000

Ohio

700,000

400,000 tons 225,000 T 500,000 T

600,000 "
400,000 "

225,000 T 500,000 T
700,000 T 500,000 T

210,000

-

$2,000,000 $4,000,000 $2,400,000 $3,600,000

Instructions were given by telephone to each of the State Procurement
Officers involved to issue proposals immediately for the quantities of
materials allocated to each state. These proposals were issued on June 24,
with the bid opening date set as June 29, for competitive bids.
Information was received yesterday by long distance telephone from
each of the State Procurement Officers that bids had been opened, awards
made, and practically all of the purchase orders issued, a few remaining

to be issued today. Entire transaction completed today.

Of no definite information has been received as to Procurement prices to
be paid course, but abstracts of bids received will be forwarded to the can be
that
Division by each State Procurement Officer just as soon as indicated they

However, the State Procurement Officer in Ohio be used in

an prepared. exceptionally favorable price had been quoted on cement to

Cleveland-$1.45 per barrel, delivered to the project.

Director of Procurement.

Balance Sheet

of the

407

EXCHANGE STABILIZATION FUND

As of

June 30, 1938.
ASSETS:

Cash:

Treasurer of the U. S., Gold
Treasurer of the U. S., Checking
Account.

Federal Reserve Bank of New York
Special Account

$1,800,000,000.00
1,643,849.25
100,765,630.03

Disbursing Officers' Balances &
Advance Accounts

11,829.04

$1,902,421,308.32

Accounts Receivable:
5,007.34

Due from French Cable Company.

Special-Accounts of Sec'y of Treasury Fed. Res. Bk. of N.Y.:
Special Account No. 1 (Gold) 1,248,862.370 OZB. (See

sched.#1)

Special Accounts Nos. 3 & 4 (Sterling and francs)

43,701,226.28
100,331.51

Foreign Exchange due from Foreign Banks - Secured Deposits:
165,000,000.00 Yuan
Central Bank of China

48,487,500.00

Gold of Foreign Banks held with Fed. Res. Bk. of N.Y. RS
collateral on Exchange Deposits:
Gold of Central Bank of Chinn 1,395,381.168 OZS

48,838,340.89

Investments - U. S. Treasury Bonds (See schedule #2)

15,107,637.53
52,042.78

Accrued Interest Receivable (See schedule #2)

2,651.00

Commodity Sales Contracts
Total Assets

$2,058,716,045.65

LIABILITIES AND CAPITAL
$2,000,000,000.00

Capital Account

605.78

Due to Central Bank of China

2,651.00

Commodity Sales Contracts.

Liability for Gold of Foreign Banks held as collateral:
Gold of Central Bank of China.

Earnings (See schedule #2)

Deferred Credits - add

General Expenses - deduct (See
schedule #3)

Total Liabilities and Capital

48,838,340.89

$10,235,737.45
310,250.56
10,545,988.01
671,540.03

9,874,447.98
$2,058,716,045.65

408
Schedule #1

Attachment to Exchange Stabilization
Fund Balance Sheet
of

June 30, 1938

Special Account #1 - Gold

Schedule showing location of Gold held by and for account of the Exchange Stabilization Fund.
Gold held by

Dollars

Ounces

Bank of England, Account A
Federal Reserve Bank, New York

U. S. Assay Office, N. Y. (Held
in safekeeping)
Total

38,941.816
47,460.817

1,354,006.95
1,661,128.59

1,162,459.737

40,686,090.74

1,248,862.370

43,701,226.28

Schedule #2

Schedule showing total earnings of the Exchange Stabilization Fund
from January 31, 1934 to June 30, 1938.
Dollars

Source

Profits on French Franc Transactions

Profits on Gold Bullion.
Profits on handling charges on gold
Profits on Silver Transactions

Profits on sale of silver bullion to Treasury (nationalized)
Profits on investments
Interest on investments
Miscellaneous Profits.
Interest earned on Foreign Balances

352,014.24
711,099.88
1,772,273.12
105,371.27
3,473,362.29
491,208.70
2,866,888.37
410.44

56,740.83
406,368.31

Interest earned on Chinese Yuan

10,235,737.45
310,250.56

Deferred Credits

10,545,988.01

Total
Investments:

Schedule showing Classes of U. S. Treasury Bonds held by the Exchange
Average rateant

Stabilization Fund.
Class

2-7/8% U. S. Treasury
bonds of 1955-60
2-1/2% U. S. Treasury
bonds of 1949-53

Accrued

which bonds

Face Value Principal Cost Interest are
$ 5,000,000
10,000,000
$15,000,000

$ 5,026,562.50 $41,796.88

10,081,075.03 10,245.90
$15,107,637.53 $52,042.78

held

100.5313
100.8108

409

Schedule #3

Administrative Expenses of the Exchange
Stabilization Fund from January 31, 1934
to June 30, 1938.
Total

Salaries

$379,961.67

Travel

31,785.80

Subsistence

18,509.14

Telephone and Telegraph.

171,622.29

Stationery, etc.

11,232.67

All other.

58,428.46

Total.

$671,540.03

410

June 30, 1938

Mr. Morgenthau had for luncheon Mr. Diggs, Mr. Eccles,
Mr. Ransom, Mr. Jones, Mr. Crowley, Mr. Gaston and Mr. Upham.

Mr. Morgenthau inquired of Messrs. Diggs, Eccles and

Crowley what they were doing to put into effect the agreement which had recently been reached with respect to bank

examination practices. Mr. Diggs explained that the press
release containing the agreement and the revised regulation
had been sent out to the chief examiners and that instruc-

tions were being prepared to be sent to examiners, and it
was hoped that they would go out very shortly and probably

be in full operation by the 15th of July. Mr. Morgenthau
inquired if the agreement was going into effect as of the
1st of July, and Mr. Diggs replied that it was, explaining
that this is the vacation period for bank examiners and
that the majority are now on vacations and that few exam-

inations are in process.
Mr. Eccles and Mr. Crowley confirmed that they were

working together and with the Office of the Comptroller in

devising interpretative instructions for the examiners in
the field. Mr. Crowley explained that his office was

411

-2working very closely with the state bank supervisors and
that everything would be arranged shortly. He expressed
some feeling that the agreement put the FDIC on something

of a spot in that they would have some difficulty in
cleaning up banks that ought to be cleaned up.
Mr. Morgenthau asked if now that the agreement was

a week old, anyone had any serious criticism of it or if
any "bugs" had been discovered in it; in short, if any
mistakes had been made that ought to be corrected.

Mr. Eccles expressed his satisfaction with the agree-

ment and his feeling that it will be very helpful to the
whole economic and recovery picture and that it represents

a step in the right direction.
Mr. Diggs said that he believed it ought to be given
a fair trial and that he saw nothing which could not be

worked out if administered in the right spirit.
Mr. Crowley read a memorandum which he had brought

with him which he regarded as interpretative of the agreement and tried to get those present to agree that his
interpretation was correct under the agreement. This

412

-3brought on some discussion of the two philosophies of

(1) bank examination as a factual accounting protection
of depositors; and (2) bank examination as an added
(or at least not a hindrance) to economic recovery and
prosperity.
Mr. Diggs mentioned the situation of the bank in
Homestead, Pennsylvania, as one of the problems facing

his office, and Mr. Morgenthau was inclined to the view
that if they only found one bank so far, the agreement
was even better than he thought it was.
Mr. Crowley expressed the view with some vigor, and
it appeared that Mr. Jones was in complete agreement with

him and Mr. Eccles more or less so, that supervision of
bad banks where there was inferior management or concen-

tration in poor loans and poor securities would have to
continue to be vigilant even under the agreement. Mr.
Jones especially expressed the view that where there was

an impairment of capital, the "screws" should be put on

to compel the restoration of capital either by local subscription or through subscription by the RFC.
At 2:10 p.m. Mr. Morgenthau left and the rest of the
group carried on the discussion for another half hour.

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June 30, 1938

In laying the cornerstone of this new home
for the National Institute of Health we mark another

important step in a great program of serving real
human needs in our land. These buildings will be
a unit in a greater structure of organization and
service. That greater structure has been reared
by the unselfish energy of our pioneers in the
continuing war against disease and their worthy
successors of today. I am happy to have been
permitted to have a small part in this great work
and especially to have had the opportunity to join
the Postmaster General in allocating funds with
which to rear these structures on the site made
available through the generosity of Mr. and Mrs.
Luke I. Wilson. We are making here a sound investment

of public funds in an enterprise certain to return
dividends to the people in the form of new contributions
to more healthful and happier living.